Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II/Archive2

2006-03-13T15:35:14Z

Strato: /* "Rampant speculation" re Starbuck/Conoy connection */

== The Cliffhanger ==

I'm betting that Baltar's little gift to the [[Demand Peace]] movement makes its way to ''Pegasus'' and is about to destroy or mortally damage the battlestar in this season closer. Mortally damaging it makes more sense to allow ''Galactica'' (and the show) to gather some of the new resources that ''Pegasus'' brought before it has to be removed from the picture. Perhaps, in coordination with a probable Cylon attack, ''Pegasus'' may end up doing a "[[The Living Legend, Part II|Commander Cain charge]]" at the start of Season 3. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:52, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quite drinking...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:02, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::Is it just me, or does the second season seem to be bouncing from cliffhanger to cliffhanger, with the in-between episodes being nothing but filler? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:08, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:::It isn't just you... Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quit sniffing glue. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:22, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::::I don't mind the "filler" episodes. I believe you need them to set up future stories down the road. I believe PEGASUS will stick around for one or two episodes next year(Gives them time to strip her down)....Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines!--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:36, 15 February 2006 (EST)

There's no cliffhanger, really. The Cylons win, humanity is occupied and the ships of the fleet are essentially empty with everyone down on Cylon-occupied New Caprica. The show is completely different from here on out. Cloud Nine is gone (which from a production standpoint makes sense--- no need for a planet-like ship when they have an actual planet) and all the leads but Lee, Adama and possibly Sharon are on the planet, hoping not to be killed by their new Cylon overlords. It's awesome. Oh, girlBilly seems to be sticking around as a character as well. [[User:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]]

:You have no idea; that's just fanfic. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:11, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::Could one or the other of you please explain what that last enormous edit-and-reversion was all about? Numbertwelve, have you seen the episode in question? Are you passing on reports from other sources, and if so, can you identify them? Merv, are you familiar with a fanfic that resembles his description? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:18, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::Well, it sounds like he was just posting his own ''guesses/fanfic ideas'' without any basis on actual material, so I cleaned it up. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)
::::I believe that the info is coming from [http://greycoupon.livejournal.com/3808.html BIG SPOILERS]. Don't know the validity of it though.
:::::Based on the what I've read of the Part I summary, I'd say that the information was actually accurate. That said, I'm not sure this site really wants to post detailed episode summaries before the episode has actually aired anywhere, especially when we have no way of confirming the source.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:35, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: In all likelihood, numbertwelve's comments stem from [http://www.patriotresource.com/bg/insights/spoilers/season2b.html here]. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:24, 8 March 2006 (CST)

::::::: Judging by that picture, I think those spoilers might be right, though I seriously hope they are dead wrong, anyone else hope this? --[[User:LeobenConoy|LeobenConoy]] 02:30, 10 March 2006 (TST)

:::::::: It certainly would be a heck of a sharp turn for the series, but, y'know, I'm OK with that. RDM really kinda needs to keep making sharp turns to keep the series from falling too much into the established track of the Original Series, for one thing. For another thing, I like surprises :-) I don't want this story to become too predictable. Actually, when I look back over the two seasons to date, RDM et alia have not allowed us to settle into anything like a routine for more than a few episodes before they kick over the tables again. That's a good thing. That said, if the spoilers are in fact correct...it's going to be a long six months 'til we find out how the situation resolves itself...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:12, 9 March 2006 (CST)

::::::::: Well, actually, [[user:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]] was right! I don't know who he/she is, but (s)he knew what'll happen exactly in ''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'' Anyway, it's the best ep so far! --[[User:Nyiz|Nyiz]] 16:14, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== The Peace Proposal ==

I haven't actually seen "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]", yet (I don't have cable, so I'm basically watching via DVD as time allows), but reading the summary, I see no mention of the Cylon peace proposal in the story as aired. It looks as though the preliminary data for the episodes was somewhat misleading, and that the peace proposal won't come until Part II. The Part II article, however, still reflects the old information. Should this be changed now? Or just wait for Friday's airing and the full summary?--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:32, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Speechless ==
Holy crap they turned everything on its head. I can't think of a better way of stating the obvious. ONE YEAR LATER!?!?!? Crap. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 22:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Yep...and we'll have to wait about that frakkin' long to find out WTF happens next...:)
[[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 22:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Well, look at it this way - if they ever want to bring [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]] back due to chronology issues, they now have an excuse. Actually, I'm surprised they didn't have the character (if not the actor) doing a cameo in the schooltent.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|D]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I personally was asking, "Where's the kicker?" Well, nothing like a second Cylon occupation to do that for you. As for October...hell, they haven't even started shooting the season yet. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:32, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::You really have to find it pretty ironic that Baltar's fraked over the Colonies again. He gives Gina the bomb, fraks her, she blows up Cloud 9 (and Gods know how many ships she took with her in that blast) and Baltar forces everyone to colonize the plantet... and the Cylons find it because of the nuclear blast. How's that for a kicker? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Katee Sackhoff has to grow out her hair. She can't keep using that wig all season. Well, and the writers haven't figured out what the hell they're going to do now :P [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:06, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::I'm not sure when this episode was filmed, but she still has a month to go before they start shooting Season 3, according to SciFi. I'm sure Moore and friends have plenty of ideas to go with. The questions posted for this episode should give some possible ideas, if they even read this thing. :P --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
That was totally awesome. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:37, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I was on pins and needles the entire time. It was so good! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:56, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Well Then... ==

Wasn't that something. I glanced over the rumors prior, but it has to be seen to get the real effect. That, and I was hoping they were dead wrong. --[[User:Michael|Michael]] 22:16, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought generally the execution of these spoilers was much better than my expections. --[[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 00:10, 11 March 2006 (EST)

== "Rampant speculation" re Starbuck/Conoy connection ==

I don't think that the ''analysis'' section is the place for something with little backing... at least currently.

: ''Although this is rampant speculation, given the warped obsession/relationship that Leoben has with Starbuck, is it possible that Starbuck's stolen egg cells from "[[The Farm]]" were fertilized with genetic material from the Leoben model to create a new Hybrid? The Cylons do seem to think she's "special".''

Anyone agree or disagree? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: To expand my point further, ''Conoy'' believed that Starbuck was special. Just because Conoy is a Cylon doesn't mean the ''Cylons'' share his belief. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

No arguements here. I've always been fuzzy on the exact parameters of the "analysis" section, however, this thought occurred to me when I remembered that A) They said that Starbuck's missing ovaries would be mentioned before the end of the season, B) It's going to be a major plot point in season 3.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:03, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: Well, in keeping with the original inspiration for the Wiki -- The Lurker's Guide to B5 -- the analysis section has always analyzed the episode. For instance, what the episode had to say, how that fit in to the grand tapestry, how that fit into real life, and things of that nature. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:12, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Long live the Lurkers guide! Best guide ever. There's also a B5 wiki being created (see my user page for the link). --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:25, 10 March 2006 (CST)

My speculation is that the reason Conoy is seeking out Kara Thrace has more to do with the events that took place with Anders, Caprica 6 and Sharon(1) in the episode downloaded...the thing with the dogtag. but we will find out in october I suppose.--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

== DubyaBaltar ==

I'd never put this in the actual wiki article, but does it strike anyone else who many jabs they're getting it at another ridiculously incompetent president? "I don't have to listen to the facts...I'm the president". etc. ''Remember, Remember the Fifth of November''.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: Though I don't think GWB has harems. Mr. Nice Gaius seems to have him beat there. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:11, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought it was a reference to Roslin and Adar's statements about "the nice thing about being President..." --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:13, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, Adar said that first. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Plus, Baltar was good friends with Adar prior to the attack. The womanizing was just good 'ol self-serving Baltar. And, when was Gaius ever nice? --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:28, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::See the dialogue section of [[Six Degrees of Separation]] for your answer Sgtpayne. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:31, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Just checked the page requested, and I'm not sure that's helping the argument. The statement is defensive in nature. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:37, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::::It's not an argument, it's an explanation as to why we're calling him "Mr. Nice Gaius". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:51, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Does anyone remember... ==

... that crack Cottle made to Cally regarding women talking * (Actually, the good Doctor said "Complain") even when their jaws are wired shut? If so, we should note it under the dialogue section and perhaps on Cottle's page (he seems to have a penchant for sexist dialogue). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:18, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:You know, Joe, I don't know why you point out "Cottle made a sexist remark here" the times that he does (Downloaded, etc.) I mean that's the type of character he is. I mean, we wouldn't list off "well, Archie Bunker did this sexist thing" in an ''All in the Family'' episode guide. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Good point. Still, since it is a part of his personality, I believe it should be noted appropriately. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:29, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Got it. On a side note, there are lots of ''really'' sexist things Cottle could have said about a woman who can't open her mouth, so maybe he should get some credit for holding back... --[[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 10:39, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::None of us, neither the show or any users here, had even had that implication at any time enter our minds. Complete non sequitor. Disgusting to bring up such crudeness, Mr.JohnH. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:38, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Source?==

"Tyrol's union speech alludes to Mario Savio's address during the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in 1964."-->Can I get confirmation on that?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:[http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mario_Savio This is confirmed]. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:34, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Thanks. Great that the show is so political.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:41, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:::I don't think it's political as much as it is human. This is [[Wikipedia: Naturalistic science fiction|"naturalistic" science fiction]], after all. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:56, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Gina's Scars==
We can clearly see that Gina's back is still badly scarred from her treatment on ''Pegasus'' in this episode. However, I seem to recall her back being completely healed in "Epiphanies". Can anybody confirm? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Er, they're on her lower/mid back, while when she was wearing the tank top, you could only see her upper shoulder blades. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:42, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Playa==
At the end of the episode (near the surrender), I thought I saw [[Playa Palacios|"Miss Exclusive"]], though it may have just been a similar-looking blonde. Can someone check this? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 11:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:She's not in the credits. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:03, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Survivor count==
There's a drop of 29 between part 1 and 2: "''A more reasonable explanation is that there was a late update in the survivor count that took into account those who died off-screen during the Cylon attack on the Pegasus in "[[The Captain's Hand]]". Soldiers who are killed are often listed as MIA (Missing in Action) until they can be confirmed as KIA (Killed in Action). In the aftermath of the attack on the Pegasus, it would have taken a while to determine the exact number of crewmen and pilots killed. Also, there were probably a number of crewmen who died from injuries afterwards. As a result, a delay in updating the survivor count is quite likely''"--->No. The survivor count at the beginning of ''Part 1'' would have accounted for these losses. Part 2 takes place weeks, maybe even 2 months past "Captain's Hand"; even "[[Downloaded]]" comes in before there. 2 episodes and about 2 months passed, and we saw no further losses from Captain's Hand beyond the 5 on screen. And the Survivor Count is omniscient. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:05, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: Once would assume that the Fleet has it share of black market thugs and suicidal people... Not everything has to be Cylon related. Just a thought. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:22, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and I have always argued as such...but then that makes the static pop count from end of Captain's Hand through LDYB part I unrealistic itself. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 16:24, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::Well, one would assume that people are reported as missing prior to being reported as dead. Hence the seemingly unrealistic count changes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:32, 11 March 2006 (CST)

::::Even though I STILL think those losses are most likely late figures from "[[The Captain's Hand]]" (I'm not going to argue about this), another possible reason for the drop could be the results of election-related riots/murders. Stuff like that happens. Either that or the writers just screwed up.--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 16:45, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::And, ultimately, that is the problem... it's all about '''thought''', not '''fact'''. Until we know for certain why these variances occur (and why they register when they do), we could think about it until our brains cry for more oxygen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:58, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Judging by our current standards and conventions, and just logic, no, it is impossible for these to be "left over" number from 3 full episodes ago. Think what you want, but don't add it back to the page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:49, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::::: Just keep in mind, the "omniscient" Survivor Count is controlled by the writers just like everything else. And writers do make mistakes occasionally. Besides what other plausible explanations are there?--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 22:41, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::Really? I had always assumed that it was controlled by mutant space monkeys. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:21, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Cloud Nine bodycount. ==

Am I going completely fuzzy-headed here, or is the fact that Cloud Nine was destroyed before the transition to New Caprica being completely overlooked.
''
*How many people died in the Cloud Nine explosion?
**The Cloud Nine explosion also destroyed ships near it. Given the stated size of the New Caprica population along with subtracting the minimal crew sizes needed to maintain the ships in orbit, you can estimate that approximately 3000 to 5000 people died.
***Actually, we have no idea how many people were still crewing the civilian ships in the Fleet when Galactica and Pegasus jumped away, so it could actually have been thousands less than that.''

The answers to the questions, as I remember what I saw, are completely irrelivant. Noone was colonizing the planet yet.
Or am I completely loosing my mind [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:09, 12 March 2006 (CST)
*No, you're quite sane. Admiral Adama had ordered the first teams to New Caprica just before the commercial break, Baltar's last night with Gina, the inauguration, and the blast. There probably wouldn't have been more than a handful of raptor teams on the surface at the time--not enough to make any appreciable dent in the population figures. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:51, 12 March 2006 (EST).
::I am a little confused as to what your asking, but I will try and clarify:
::The episode states that after a year, there are about 39,000 people on New Caprica. The Galactica and the Pegasus require about 5,000 crew between the two ships, but at the time of Baltars election, were only carrying about 4,000. However, it is made clear that the two battlestars are operating with skeleton crews - so lets say for the sake of arguement that thats 1/2 of normal, which would put the combined crews at 2,500. There are other ships in the defense fleet above New Caprica, looks to be about ten additional ships, if I remember correctly. Lets say they need 600 crew each (see [[The Fleet (RDM)]], but are also running with skeleton crews, which puts them at 10 x 600 = 6,000/2 = 3,000. Combine that with the battlestars crew, you get 5,500. Add that to 39,000 and you get 44,500. Compare with the pre-New Caprica pop of 49,000 and it looks like about 4,500 died in the Nuclear blast. So, no, the destuction of Cloud 9 was not overlooked, it was indeed factored into the New Caprican population. --[[User:Kraetos|Kraetos]] 23:30, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Where should this error go? ==
When we see it parked on the surface of New Caprica, [[Colonial One]] was missing the Colonial/presidential seal that we've seen before on its port side. Nobody would have scraped it off the hull. I know the people down there are desperate for resources, but ''paint chips''? --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:56, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:Well the real answer is that they crew just plain old forgot to put it in the model, but forcontinuity's sake, it could be hypothesized that someone discontent with the Baltar Administration scraped off the seal in the middle of the night as if to say 'this man isn't fit to have the presidential seal on his office/spaceship.' --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 13:18, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::I'd prefer to eschew the fanwankery and note it as the continuity glitch it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:28, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:::'Fanwankery'? It is completely plausible that what I said ''might'' have happened, so how can you conclude that it was a glitch. There are many ways paint like that could have come off. Perhaps when they painted the seal on Colonial One they used a paint not suitable for atmospheric re-entry and it got burned off. Maybe there is some sort of corrosive rain on the plannet that solubilizes lower quality paint. Perhaps Baltar didn't like the design on the seal. The point is that even though it was most likely a continuity glitch it is not ''nesscearily'' one. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::::[[Wikipedia:Fanwank|Fanwank]]. It's my new favorite word. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:: Eh, people... can we stop analyzing why the seal isn't on ''Colonial One''? It's more than likely a CGI glitch -- nothing more. Anything else is just unhealthy obsession. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:43, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== 6's credits voiceover ==
Should it be part of this episode? It seems that there is no discussion of it here or anywhere else. -- [[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 14:426, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:That was a commercial for Season 3, not part of this episode. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 13:54, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Firefly connection ==

Greenleaf and Persephone; both were planets in Firefly. I noticed the Greenleaf back in Sacrifice, but this episode was the first time that I saw or heard Persephone. It's a nice little homage to Firefly, if it was even on purpose. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 15:20, 12 March 2006 (CST)

:No. You are grasping at straws. "Persephone" is a very generic, widely known Greco-Roman type name, and we only see it on a list briefly. As for "Greenleaf", it has been mentioned like 3 times in dialog, but this is in fact a reference to Legolas from Lord of the Rings (both Firefly and Lord of the Rings appear to have named something after Legolas, independently of each other). However, that doesn't mean we should make a note saying "wow, both Firefly and BSG have a planet named Greenleaf"...because literally HUNDREDS of other books and tv shows have named stuff in homage to LOTR. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== We'll Be Back ==

Before the fleet jumps away, Adm. Adama announces, in McArthuresque fashion, that "We'll be back." So, I was floored to
notice on the podcast for this episode (which I just got around to listening to) that Ron Moore offhandedly mentioned that Edward James Olmos would not be returning for season three. Did anyone else catch that? It was around 25 minutes into the podcast.
--[[User:TomP|TomP]] 1:22, 13 March 2006 (EST)

:It was a JOKE. They were DRUNK. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:32, 13 March 2006 (CST)

::Also, the Chief and Colonel Tigh got married offscreen in this episode, and Season 3 starts off 5 years in the future ;) --[[Bahamut|Bahamut]] 03:22, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Caprica Six or Gina? ==

The article says:

Are the Six and Eight that Baltar surrendered to Caprica-Six and Galactica-Sharon?
* Judging from Six's reaction to Baltar, almost definitely.

However, couldn't it actually be Gina, and not Caprica-Six? From what we've seen in ''Downloaded'', I doubt the "war heroes" would join the Cylon fleet, let alone try to enslave humanity. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 08:46, 13 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Downloaded/Archive 1

2006-03-02T17:48:05Z

Strato:

If this episode has been dropped so Resurrection can be split into two, then aren't we still missing an episode? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 00:06, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:Yes. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:14, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:: I've heard new rumors that this ISN'T the Cylon POV episode; that this episode covers the fate of Galactica-Sharon, but the "totally" Cylon POV episode was another one entirely. There may be hope yet. Besides, I think at the least Lawless has actually filmed scenes for it; I don't know if the one that was scrapped ever went past script phase.

:::RDM says in the downloaded that this '''is''' the cylon POV episode. Plus, theres no time left for one this season, the season finale starts next week. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 17:52, 26 February 2006 (EST)

However, new developments: I got a link to a scan of the February edition of Scifi Magazine, in which they answer questions from the official messageboard: http://pics.livejournal.com/reedfem/pic/0008a1hf ---->I can't tell if Grace Park is being SARCASTIC or if she was serious. (BTW, like 5 of these questions are from me, notably the Blade Runner one, the Geena Davis one, and the "new evil Sharon?" one). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:51, 5 December 2005 (EST)
::For those interested, the full set of scans can be found here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/reedfem/158883.html?page=1 --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:34, 5 December 2005 (EST)

Hmm, I'm pretty sure I saw a copy of Simon in the cafe on Caprica. I'm removing the "possibly archival footage" thing. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:24, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:They're saying it was a body double on TWOP. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:27, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::It's possible it might have been a different actor. What does TWOP stand for? --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:35, 24 February 2006 (EST)

This episode was very good. I have one problem with it: Not Enough Leoben Conoy. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:37, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yeah, I was suprised we didn't see him on Caprica. I mean, they even had Simon (or at least who I believe is Simon).

:Someone claimed Leoben was on Caprica: where? I did not see him, though I will rewatch it. I will delete this info until it can be confirmed. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:58, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::You're totally right... he wasn't there. Not sure why, but he wasn't. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 01:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::The TWOPers found a body double wearing his miniseries costume [http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/9672/cap0118pd.png here]. ([http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showtopic=3136156&view=findpost&p=4607381 link to post]) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:14, 25 February 2006 (EST)
*He was there. He walked by 6 several times, and was sitting in the cafe. You don't see his face because they couldn't get the actor. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 01:15, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Blade Runner reference
I about fell off the couch when the cylons were referred to as "skin jobs"--George w chomsky

:Trust me, they know that we know. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:16, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Is it really Apollo in the picture of the Galactica crew that Sharon holds in her appartment? Because it's so small I can't be sure. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 05:30, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Can we get Roslin's "if I wanted to airlock a baby..." comment in the dialogue section? (both for its hilarity and the likelihood of it coming up later) I'd do it myself but I don't have a tape for the exact wording. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 14:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:Added that quote. Maybe these two questions should be added as well, but I'd like to know how others think about it: - Why did Roslin eventually decide to have the baby adopted instead of killing it? Why Was Baltar not notified of the baby being kept alive? Roslin never shared her suspicions of Baltar being a Cylon sympathizer. Were Admiral Adama and Col. Tigh even notified of this? --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 16:26, 25 February 2006 (EST)
:Check the Analysis sections: Roslin has no real "evidence" against Baltar, so she's not going to bring her suspicions into the open yet. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:48, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::That's my point, really. Roslin didn't even inform her vice-president. Even if she's doing it because of the presidential elections it wouldn't make sense, because Baltar seems opposed to abortion (and so he could use the accusation of Roslin being a baby killer against her).... --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 06:01, 26 February 2006 (EST)

After viewing the episode I have one serious question, where did they get a "fake" baby to fool Sharon 2 and Helo? A parent would notice if the body wasn't their own child. While a friend of mine suggested body used was resultant of the offscreen abortion from "The Captains Hand", this wouldn't work, as that fetus was only 4 months along, and would have been far less developed, and only 1/3rd the size (approx.) of baby Hera. Is their a master Wax Sculpter somewhere in the fleet?--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

Talk:The Captain's Hand/Archive 1

2006-02-22T18:41:50Z

Strato: /* "To Be, or Not... To Be" */

==Episode Impressions==

Well I think that was a damn good episode, a good improvement over some of the previous episodes. Tricky for some article editing but overall I know you guys will do a great job on the page. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:02, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:Not bad at all. [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 23:05, 17 February 2006 (EST)

::I agree. Some tense moments, and the Baltar announcement kinda threw me for a second, but overall a refresing change of pace. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)

::Great Episode I thought. The abortion debate was an fascinating piece of art imitating life in my opinion. It will be interesting to see how this pans out as the show continues. --[[User:Simmons|Simmons]] 10:55, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:: With the last few episodes, I was becoming increasingly disillusioned with the apparently magical powers of RDM and his writing team. This episode is more like what I (and, I think, we all) have come to expect from Galactica. [[User:Shred|Shred]] 13:47, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== Not ANOTHER Commander! ==

This episode was topnotch, yes. But this leaves us wikipedians with a bit of a problem. Enter "Commander Adama" and you get William Adama. We'll need a disambig for this new change. Betting that Lee's promotion is temporary, of course. And, for me at least, there's the matter of the new commander living long enough--Pegasus goes through commanders now like I go through a bag of cookies. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:08, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:Perhaps maybe the Pegasus will be around longer than we thought? [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 23:10, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::Or maybe we'll have another Adama cliffhanger, this time with Lee... -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::Methinks those nuke hits will come back to haunt them (especially with the nuke Baltar took coming into play) and Adama will go for either, a) another space walk when the Pegasus goes boom or b) He will be aboard Galactica laughing at Tigh for still being a Colonel. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Personally, as a US Navy vet, I think this was a huge breach in protocol. Granted, I'm loving the show and plotwise it's a good move, the reality of it is that if anything, Tigh would have been promoted to Commander (and probably should have been after the ''Pegasus'' lost its two seniormost officers) and '''perhaps''' Lee promoted to Colonel as the XO. Obviously, there was the huge flareup from when Tigh had command of the fleet, but even still, as XO of ''Galactica'', it should have went to him.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:19, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:I agree with you, and it might make for some good Tigh material later on, with him and Ellen being pissed off for being passed over. But I think because of the reactions he got within the fleet, there would be more trouble then its worth. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::Pretty much what I was thinking as well, especially since ADM Adama and Tigh go way back, so he'll probably see this as a major snub. So again, as a plot issue, I think it works. But I think the whole thing probably could have been handled a bit more realistically. But that's just me. ^_^;;;--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:25, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::Hey, all! New here. And same thoughts here, but not just from Tigh, but maybe from the fleet. Kara didn't seem to care one way or another (or, at least, didn't voice it), but I think some might be extremely angry that Lee went from Major to Commander in a month. [[User:Michael|Michael]] 23:29, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::::As much as it was a breach in protocol, [[Saul_Tigh|Col. Tigh]] might not be miffed as bad as everyone thinks. Recall from [[Scattered]], that he really wasn't interested in "the big chair". I'm thinking that Ellen may have the larger issue of the two. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:41, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::::True, but there is still the matter of OPLANs, NAVREGs (or whatever serves for the fleet). It was as much rules and regulations - some of the stuff that ADM Adama is supposed to adhere to, especially during wartime - as Tigh's preferences. Granted, I'm probably reading a bit much of real-world influences into this, and I understand that they did it for the plot, but again, I really expect some backlash to happen, both on-screen and somewhat amongst the really, really nitpicky fans. Like me. ^_- --'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:54, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:::::The passing over of Colonel Tigh for the post of ''Pegasus'' Commander needs to be addressed at a later time I believe. Either he was offered the position and passed, his attitude to receiving a command as stated in "Scattered" was well known to Admiral Adama and he knew the offer of promotion would be rejected or Admiral Adama decided he needed him where he was...Hopefully this will be addressed in a later episode. A throwaway line from Admiral Adama to Colonel Tigh such as "Im glad you stayed" or "You know it was yours if you wanted it" would wrap it up and end this speculation! :)--[[User:Simmons|Simmons]] 10:03, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Was Apollo promoted to Commander or simply given command of the Pegasus and stayed at the rank of Major ?. After all it is possible to be the Captain (and referred to as the Captain) of a ship without holding the rank of Captain. Maybe the same thing holds for the Commander designation. Although being given the pips does confuse things but it does seem strange that he jumped almost two command ranks in one go. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 02:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

: Just some thoughts. By its very nature the command structure of the Fleet must be looser than it would be in "normal" circumstances. Seniority has become less important than fitting individuals to function. Tigh has shown himself to be in some ways a superior XO, one upon whom Adama depends. Also, I would maintain that Tigh depends no less upon Bill Adama in order to function. But I wonder if any other "cross-pollenization" of battlestar crews might be wise. [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 11:57, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Apollo was indeed promoted to the rank of Commander Rexpop. Personally, since I haven't read the Articles of Colonial Field Promotions...or whatever...I can't say that Lee's promotion was in breach of any protocol...maybe IRL it would be...but in the RDM universe, who knows.
Personally I think that the promotion to Commander reflects Apollos actions. He assumed command of the Pegasus when she was allready faceing 3 Basestars, with potentially up to 2,400 Raiders, and the Pegasus allready heavily damaged...and he was able to not only pull it out of the fire and escape, but heavily damaged/crippled one Basestar in the process. I'd say that he deserves the promotion to Commander. --[[User:Strato|Strato]]

On further thought it makes sense that Lee was probably the only viable candidate in fleet. The reasoning is as follows:

First up lets identify the potential candidates that we know about on Galactica. After the attack the command staff on Galactica was Adama, Colonel Tigh, Captain Kelly, Major Cottle and Lee. There are no other senior officers that we know about and given that Captain Kelly was second officer its unlikely there were others.

On Pegasus things are a little more vague. We know that Fisk was a Colonel and that Garner was not a command officer but the chief engineer so its likely that he held at least the rank of Major. With both officers gone it is likely the highest command officer left on Pegasus was probably no higher than the rank of Major. And given that Pegasus was in for a refit at the time of the attack it was likely that like Galactica the ship was light on senior officers.

So at the end we are left with four candidates that we the audience knows about. Tigh, Lee, Cottle and Kelly. Tigh has made it clear that he doesn't want command and Adama would likely pass him over due to his personal issues with the bottle. Cottle would probably not be considered due to not being a command officer and the lack of doctors in the fleet.

Kelly is a good candidate and is probably on a par with Lee, but where Lee wins out over Kelly is that Kelly doesn't have experience in commanding a Battlestar, only as an XO. Admittedly Lee only has one engagement under his belt, but he was thrown into the fire and came out singed but intact. Kelly doesn't have that so that puts Lee ahead. So under the circumstances (and the limited pool to draw on) Lee is pretty much is the best candidate that we know about for the job.

Now the only question that I have is why hasn't Kelly been made first officer of the Pegasus ?. It would seem that he would be a natural choice given that it was strongly hinted in the mini-series that he was in line for a promotion to a first officer position after his tour of duty was over. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 14:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:Don't forget that Cain had already had her first XO executed, so Col. Fisk had probably been promoted from a lower rank already. As for Kelly vs. Lee Adama, it's not entirely clear which of them have seniority. Lee was under arrest when Kelly was acting as Tigh's XO. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

==Survivor Count==
The survivor count went down by six even though we saw seven deaths in the last episode. This could be explained by the well established fact that cylon deaths do not result in a dropping of the count. It has long been speculated that [[Billy|Billy]] is/was a cylon. If this is true it would explain the loss of only six from the count. That said, it is also possible, even probable that there was a birth. In the podcast for [[Sacrifice|Sacrifice]] it is said that Billy was killed off just because the actor portraying him wished to pursue other projects. Thoughts?--[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 02:30, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:No, for two reasons: One, we actually saw the White Board of Death to confirm numbers, Two: occasionally there are births in the fleet which make the number go up slightly. Although this could never account for the sudden, unexplained gain of 50 people at a time or something, it does go to explain why sometimes there are episodes where a lot of people die, but the survivor count doesn't drop that much.
--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

::I don't understand what you're saying. Im not disputing the numbers, im giving a possible explination for why the number went down by only six when we see seven people (pehaps one of them a cylon) dying in the previous episode. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 03:37, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Seven people die on screen. 2 more die off screen. 3 babies are born off screen. We don't hear about these second two events, but they still ''happen'', and when we see the renewed survivor count, it's a ''Net'' loss of six, and so forth. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Whether Billy is a Cylon is not an issue for the Survivor Count (fleet population). President Roslin wouldn't yet be aware, so it would not be a factor in the population count, and therefore to mention the speculation about Billy wasn't really relevant. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 04:15, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Yeah thats a good point that the president wouldnt know, youre right. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 21:38, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Tigh and Seniority ==

In the questions, I wonder if the reference to Tigh's "seniority" is even relevent. This isn't a situation analogous to the time (now-Admiral) Adama was shot because in that case, Tigh was the most senior officer PERIOD, and here now Tigh is, of course, not. Adama, as the ranking flag officer (Admiral, if not Commander, and up), presumably has the authority to make promotions as he sees fit. While I'm sure anyone would agree that the promotion of Lee to Commander was unusual, does anybody really think promoting Tigh would have seemed like a good idea to anyone in the fleet? Just curious. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 05:31, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't see the fuss: Col. Tigh himself has stated repeatedly that he does not want a command of his own, and only wants to work as a team with William Adama. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 05:39, 18 February 2006 (EST)

BTW; a note on units: someone mentions that "40 SU" is a long distance away in space for Pegasus. I think that must mean "Stellar Unit", as opposed to our standardized "Astronomical Unit (AU)" (distance from Earth to the sun).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:01, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Pegasus Technology / Technicalities ==
=== Landing Strips & Weaponry ===

Amazing Battle Sequence in this episode. It was nice to finally get to see Pegasus retake her Vipers via both the upper and lower Landing strips.
when I first saw her from this angle http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Pegasus01.jpg I suspected she had 4 landing strips, and now that I have seen them in use, I feel vindicated. What do we know if anything about the 2 Bough Battery's Pegasus was firing at the middle Basestar? The shells seem to be the same size or larger than a viper?--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

:Also, the fact that one of them is inverted confirms that the colonials can maniuplate artificial gravity fields selectively. This was suspected from some shots of the botanical cruiser with a few domes upside down, but this is more explicit and a more extreme difference (the two strips are back to back). --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 17:38, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't think we could really tell what was upside down or not; I got the impressing that they were just flipping the ''camera angle'' to show that Pegasus was flipping around; more detail when we get the DVDs.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 18:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:From what I saw, half of the Vipers rotated to land on the bottom two Pegasus decks. Starbuck was clearly upside down. It can also be seen that Vipers landing on lower deck of the flight pod were rotating to land from the Vipers landing on the upper deck. This is the first time we see that all Viper's land on opposite sides of the same surface. I'm wondering how they are going to explain or show that the gravity is opposite from the rest of the ship.--[[User:Jedivulcan|Jedivulcan]]

::I hope they don't bother. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:10, 18 February 2006 (EST)

They haven't yet explained how they crerate Artificial Gravity onboard the ships yet...I assume its some sort of gravplating...or something...as usual its one of those suspension of disbelief things you just have to kind of accept (for that matter how do they prevent people from flaoting in Zero G in the Raptors?), but the Pegasus clearly has 4 Landing Strips,a nd uses them, there is no need to wait "for the DVD's". For Viper Raptor landings however, they don't relie on Artificial Gravity, they land their skids on magnetic "traps".--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

::See the [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] article for discussion on artificial gravity. I'm betting more on magnetism on this: Why? Watch the [[Miniseries]], when ''Colonial Heavy 798'' first docks on ''Galactica'' for the decomissioning ceremonies. You'll see two spacesuited workers who are ''floating'' while they're working. If this was gravity, these guys would NOT float. Doesn't give us a direct answer, but it eliminates "selective" gravity adjustments. Confirm this with how the Vipers make combat landings; they bounce a lot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:20, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:::Ahh, but we also see the flight pod that has been converted to a museum was in possession of artificial gravity in the decommissioning ceremonies. I'm not adding this to rule out your theory Spencerian, but merely to add that we don't have any clear evidence to say whether they can switch the artificial gravity on or off in the flight pods (the museum could also been an anomaly all its own). --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 00:25, 20 February 2006 (EST)

::::Another thing, the starboard flight deck (the one converted to a museum) still had its artificial gravity active when the Heavy Raider crashed into it in "[[Scattered]]" -- the Raider stays anchored to the deck and Cylons can be seen walking out of it. Since the whole starboard pod was pretty much abandoned, why would they leave the gravity on and thus using unnecessary power? --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 02:02, 20 February 2006 (EST)

: I watched the episode again tonight, and paid extra-careful attention to how the Vipers were recovered. During the sequence, a few Vipers are flying with their dorsal vertical stabilizer and canopy away from our POV (so we see their underside), and a few Vipers (Thrace's among them) are flying with their vertical stabilizer and canopy towards our POV (so we're looking "down" at the top of the pilot's head). If you watch carefully, the former Vipers "disappear" into the upper landing bay, and the camera tracks along with the latter Vipers as they land in the lower landing bay. Because we're so disoriented, we might ''think'' that we're the ones that are hanging upside-down, when, in fact, the Vipers are the ones doing the inversion. Because in Space, there is no up or down, this is entirely feasible, and recovery is just as accomplishable in both orientations, especially when one factors in Spencerian's suggestion of magnetic plates. The only real mystery to us, then, is how they re-orient everything once '''''inside''''' the flight pod's internal compartments. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 01:28, 21 February 2006 (EST)

=== Class Capability ===

I removed the following entry from the article's "Notes" section: 
: [[Mercury class battlestar]]s do not need to retract their flight pods prior to a jump, unlike the [[Galactica type battlestar|Galactica type]]. 
I felt this statement was superfluous and unneeded, since ''Mercury''-class Battlestars '''''cannot''''' retract their flight pods before jumping to FTL; it's not a question of needing to or not. The design of the ''Mercury''-class is closest to the original (original series) model, with fixed flight pods and external hull plating and lines. Why TPTB included retractable/deployable flight pods on ''Galactica's'' class is anyone's guess — it's a neat feature, both visually and stylistically — but I don't think it's necessary to the performance of the FTL drive. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 20:29, 18 February 2006 (EST)
: I could see the retractable flight pods on the ''Galactica'' type used to make a sealed enviroment when closed to create an atmosphere on the deck. I would say it could logically allow a way for people to disembark larger craft like ''Colonial One'' when they dock, however its been proven that craft like that use an airlock gantry way for that purpose. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 20:43, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm restoring this. We may have suspected that Pegasus can't and/or doesn't retract its flight pods, but before this episode, but we didn't ''know''.--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:48, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== "Property"? ==

I'm a little sketchy on current United States legal terminology, but they said that "Under Gemenese law, minors are the "property" of their parents"--->Is the term "property" used by the United States, or any Western nation for that matter? I don't know. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:03, 18 February 2006 (EST)
:Under United States law, no, minors are not property. In practical terms, the situation is a little more complicated. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 18 February 2006 (EST)

::I do not understand. Further, how could she be "property"?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:13, 18 February 2006 (EST)
:::In theory, children are absolutely not "property" under united states law, which grants equal protection not only to all citizens ''of'' the United States, but to all ''persons'' ''within'' the United States. In practice, legal guardians have a wide range of authority over their charges. Of particular relevance to this episode, some jurisdictions require minors to notify their parents prior to an abortion. A friend of mine who sued for emancipation from her parents has told me that in her opinion, there's little practical distinction between the status of an legal minor and "property". I suspect it's a matter of perspective, really. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:40, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== "To Be, or Not... To Be" ==

I removed the following entry from the article's "Notes" section:
: [[Roslin]] references Shakespeare's ''Merchant of Venice'' when she asks [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] if she wants her "pound of flesh". It's unclear if analogues of his work exist in the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Colonies]].

I think that the phrase "pound of flesh" has become quite familiar in modern culture and literary circles, such that it really doesn't warrant significance in citing. It has been used in countless movies and TV episodes without citation (not that I think a phrase can be copyrighted to such an extent), and I haven't seen the writers of ''Law & Order'' state, "Yeah, we intentionally alluded to Shakespeare, and wanted the lawyer to give that impression that he was alluding to Shakespeare when he said it in court". Yes, I'm probably going to an extreme, but really, this is just a case of a scriptwriter putting this phrase into the script, and almost certainly has '''''nothing''''' to do with whether or not Shakespeare is familiar to The Colonies. This isn't the Klingons quoting ''Hamlet''. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 21:45, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm also restoring this. The phrase may have a more general meaning, but it is impossible not to make the association with Shakespeare when hearing it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:52, 19 February 2006 (EST)

: I stand by my original action, more so than the other removal I undertook. It is excessive "over-think" to assume (or, create the assumption) that everything spoken in the dialogue must have explanation in or correlation to "canon" terms. "Pound of flesh" is a term, a phrase, plain and simple... and while its origin ''here'' is attributed to Shakespeare, it ''does not mean'', nor imply, that Shakespeare exists in this storyline, or that Shakespeare was somehow influenced by Colonial writing, or that Shakespeare is, or could be, or should be, any part of this storyline. This storyline and Shakespearean writing are completely exclusive of each other, with the exception being, perhaps, that writers here may take dramatic or stylistic cues from Shakespeare (or any other classes of writers). Hey, they're only Human too. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 02:06, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Look, in general, I agree with you that it's not desirable to read too much into things - no, the freighter "greenleaf" is not a Legolas reference, for example. This, however, is very clear. I am going to restore it again for now, and I would like you to leave it be until at least a few others weigh in. At that point, I will be happy to abide by consensus. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 19 February 2006 (EST)

I stand with Farago. Utterly. Two to one, motion stands.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:01, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Please remember that, when content is disputed due to interpretation ([[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|as opposed to sources]]), our policy is to generally leave the item ''within the article'' and to work here on Talk (as done) to gain consensus before leaving the item in permanently. If consensus cannot be reached, one of the [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Special%3AListusers&group=sysop&username= Administrators] here (or other contributor) can call for a vote. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:17, 19 February 2006 (EST)

: Perhaps a compromise can be reached. I adjusted the statement slightly to be more ambiguous. I'm not against the mention of a snippet or insight like this — but, I'm completely opposed to extending an insight into speculation, especially when it involves linking to or placement in the ''canon'' storyline. The contributor who first placed that statement (Alphaboi867) hasn't "shown up" to defend it, and I strongly feel that the original phrasing of it is ungrounded speculation that is linking Shakespeare to the storyline, where no such link has been indicated by TPTB to exist. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:03, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:''Hawke suggests:''
The script for [[Laura Roslin]] references Shakespeare's ''Merchant of Venice'', when she asks [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] if she wants her "pound of flesh". It's unclear as to if the writers are somehow placing Shakespeare's work into the story of [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Colonies]], or if this is just a random "use of phrase" by an inspired scriptwriter.

:This seems verbose. Just stating that she's quoting shakespeare shouldn't imply any position on whether or not he exists in the BSG universe. How about simply stating this in notes:
::[[Laura Roslin]] quotes Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" when she tells [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] that she's gotten her "pound of flesh".
:And, if we feel the need to discuss the implication of this quotation, doing so under Analysis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:10, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:: I would be agreeable to this, so long as it is prefaced with "The script (or dialogue) for [[Laura Roslin]]... (rest of your statement)". I know I'm dicing onions, but I think it's ''crucial'' that there is no implication that Shakespeare exists in The Colonies ''unless'' or ''until'' it is substantiated further. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:19, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:::"Writer Jeff Vlaming references Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" when he has [[Laura Roslin]] tell [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]], "you have your pound of flesh."? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:25, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:::: That works fine, in my opinion. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:28, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Anachronism of using Shakespearian refrences aside for a moment...did anyone else pick up on the distinctive Literal interpretation of Rosalyn's usage of "Pound of Flesh" during this specific conversation? The conversation centers around a teenaged girl who aborted her pregnancy 4 months into the gestation...so the phrase here can be taken with a double meaning...somewhat tastlessly really. (at 4 months the average human fetus weighs approx 300 grams, or a tad shy of a full pound). Another queston beyond Refrencing common Anglo expresions would be what about units of Measurement...why would the 12 Colonies use a standard English Pound as a unit of mass/weight?...--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

:No. Just, just no. Look, I've sworn off yelling at people, but that is A) a complete ''non sequitor'' (it came out of nowhere) and B) disgusting. NO. I mean; Sarah Porter (Rep, Gemenon) is against abortion, so how is letting Rya have an abortion "''giving her''" anything?! Look, this doesn't need a response or anything, but this was a really wacky thing to say Strato (in my opinion). Let's move on now. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:57, 22 February 2006 (EST)

:Do you really want [[Laxon|invented units of measure]]? TOS did it, but considering they're speaking English on the show, I'm willing to concede all units of measure are being "translated" as well (into American English, apparently, since they're not using SI units). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:34, 21 February 2006 (EST)

::Also note that they use feet on their [[Altimeter]]s and Pounds per Square Inch on their pressure valves. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:28, 21 February 2006 (EST)

Its hardly a non-sequitor ...I honestly believe the literal interpretation/double meaning of the phrase is the reason it was chosen, and used by the writers.
I believe that Porter was meant to understand the double meaning as well, and thats why she was as angry as she was...not just because she didn't get her full wishes granted. Is it gross? of course it is. but by refrencing a "pound of flesh" in this context, it not only means that the Gemonese have forced a law outlawing abortion, but that enough blood has litterally and figurativly been spilt on this one issue, and that Rosalyn would not give another inch. I believe that since the entire point of the Abortion issue being raised in the series to look at the morality vs. immorality of a womans right to control her own body, vs. religious beliefs, and the "reality" of repopulating the Colonial fleet, you might as well look at the issue and not just play lipservice to the questions asked in the episode.I by no means am encouraging a flame war on abortion...as our own personal views don't really matter in realtion to the series writing...either way...I would hardly call the point "wacky"--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

== Councillor -> Delegate ==
I changed the instances of Councillor to Delegate per [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions#Character_Titles|Article 3 Section 1 of the Standards and Conventions]]. If events occur such that we need to reevaluate the standard title for members of the Quorum, we should probably take it over to the talk at S&C (so that it will be applied everywhere). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:46, 18 February 2006 (EST)

==How much is too much?==

I know this was brought up in another episode of the season, in that we should be mindful of how much information is provided for each episode. For the information that's being provided in summary, how much should we include? Some veteran input would be greatly appreciated. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 15:32, 19 February 2006 (EST)
:I agree that this needs concision badly, and separation between the "A" and "B" plots. Try to stick to the rough outlines of the plot, and save salient details for Notes. Be bold. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:49, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Well I edited a fair bit, taking out some extra explanations. I think we have to look at these summaries as more of a sports recap the day after the game rather then a play-by-play of the whole episode. I think more time should be spent on individual pages (Eg. Lee Adama) rather then explanation what happens to him in detail in the episode. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 19:33, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::: Oh and my apologies to Peter Farago for removing his notable dialogue stuff, had an older copied and pasted version which overwrote your stuff, D'oh!! --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 19:36, 19 February 2006 (EST)
:::No. Wrong. It is more convenient/efficient to describe/question/analyze events in an episode, within that episode's own page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:11, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::Yeah, I think his point is that it's only worth doing if the points are interesting. This is not a transcript, we don't need a blow-by-blow of each quivering facial expression that plays out on Bamber and Sakhoff's faces in any given scene. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:19, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::: Aye, exactly. Thanks for clarifying! Also, it might be easier to just throw it on the episode page, but in the end it has to be done on the character/object/whatever page so why not spend more time putting there instead. (Eg. Apollo getting shot can be mentioned on the episode, but it will have to go on Apollo's page anyway, so no point in being overly descriptive. --22:08, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::::Thank you everyone for the comments. It was really nice to see comments from season vets (Farago) as well as some new faces to the Wiki. The recent summary changes look good, and it it's good to touch on what's consider vague versus verbose through discussions such as this. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 00:55, 20 February 2006 (EST)

==Casualties==

Rexpop writes:
:There may be two further explanations for this (1) that the board hadn't been updated to reflect the damage on the ''Pegasus'' , only the pilots lost. (2) A large number of the ''Galactica'' casualties occurred during the venting of the fire and was largely due to the conflicting damage control orders given by Kelly, Tyrol and Tigh rather than the actual impact of the missile.

I don't think either of these points bears up to scrutiny. As to the first, I'm willing to wait until next friday, but I can almost promise you that the count won't be pushed any lower - we thought something similar after the surprisingly low casualty count between "Valley of Darkness" and "Fragged", but no other deaths were added on later.

As for the second point, that's simply not the case - Tigh knew that if he waited for the repair crews to evacuate, the fuel lines would blow, and Adama not only backed up his decision but said that he'd have made the same one in his place. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:25, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:It would have been amusing if they did blow and the series ended right there. I dunno what we'd be watching in its place, but there's probably plenty of ideas floating around. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:11, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm not disputing whether or not Tigh's decision was or wasn't the correct one. I was making the point that the bulk of the Galactica's casualties (around 80 or so) came from the decision to vent the atmosphere in those sections while the DC teams (that had moved into the section to deal with the fire) were evacuating rather than from the impact of the missile. I've edited the comment to remove the sentence about the DC effort to try and to clear up the point. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 23:12, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Interesting point. We do hear that all the breathing gear was used up in firefighting ops, which the dead deck crew are criticized for neglecting in the mini. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:54, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== what was Baltar working on? ==

When the episode cuts to Laura Rosalyn consulting with Gaius Baltar in his labratory over the population projections for the fleet, Baltar is working on some sort of tissue sample. I am very curious as to what he was doing, and what/whom the tissue sample was taken from?

Talk:The Captain's Hand/Archive 1

2006-02-22T18:41:27Z

Strato: /* "To Be, or Not... To Be" */

==Episode Impressions==

Well I think that was a damn good episode, a good improvement over some of the previous episodes. Tricky for some article editing but overall I know you guys will do a great job on the page. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:02, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:Not bad at all. [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 23:05, 17 February 2006 (EST)

::I agree. Some tense moments, and the Baltar announcement kinda threw me for a second, but overall a refresing change of pace. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)

::Great Episode I thought. The abortion debate was an fascinating piece of art imitating life in my opinion. It will be interesting to see how this pans out as the show continues. --[[User:Simmons|Simmons]] 10:55, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:: With the last few episodes, I was becoming increasingly disillusioned with the apparently magical powers of RDM and his writing team. This episode is more like what I (and, I think, we all) have come to expect from Galactica. [[User:Shred|Shred]] 13:47, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== Not ANOTHER Commander! ==

This episode was topnotch, yes. But this leaves us wikipedians with a bit of a problem. Enter "Commander Adama" and you get William Adama. We'll need a disambig for this new change. Betting that Lee's promotion is temporary, of course. And, for me at least, there's the matter of the new commander living long enough--Pegasus goes through commanders now like I go through a bag of cookies. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:08, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:Perhaps maybe the Pegasus will be around longer than we thought? [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 23:10, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::Or maybe we'll have another Adama cliffhanger, this time with Lee... -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::Methinks those nuke hits will come back to haunt them (especially with the nuke Baltar took coming into play) and Adama will go for either, a) another space walk when the Pegasus goes boom or b) He will be aboard Galactica laughing at Tigh for still being a Colonel. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Personally, as a US Navy vet, I think this was a huge breach in protocol. Granted, I'm loving the show and plotwise it's a good move, the reality of it is that if anything, Tigh would have been promoted to Commander (and probably should have been after the ''Pegasus'' lost its two seniormost officers) and '''perhaps''' Lee promoted to Colonel as the XO. Obviously, there was the huge flareup from when Tigh had command of the fleet, but even still, as XO of ''Galactica'', it should have went to him.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:19, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:I agree with you, and it might make for some good Tigh material later on, with him and Ellen being pissed off for being passed over. But I think because of the reactions he got within the fleet, there would be more trouble then its worth. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::Pretty much what I was thinking as well, especially since ADM Adama and Tigh go way back, so he'll probably see this as a major snub. So again, as a plot issue, I think it works. But I think the whole thing probably could have been handled a bit more realistically. But that's just me. ^_^;;;--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:25, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::Hey, all! New here. And same thoughts here, but not just from Tigh, but maybe from the fleet. Kara didn't seem to care one way or another (or, at least, didn't voice it), but I think some might be extremely angry that Lee went from Major to Commander in a month. [[User:Michael|Michael]] 23:29, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::::As much as it was a breach in protocol, [[Saul_Tigh|Col. Tigh]] might not be miffed as bad as everyone thinks. Recall from [[Scattered]], that he really wasn't interested in "the big chair". I'm thinking that Ellen may have the larger issue of the two. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:41, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::::True, but there is still the matter of OPLANs, NAVREGs (or whatever serves for the fleet). It was as much rules and regulations - some of the stuff that ADM Adama is supposed to adhere to, especially during wartime - as Tigh's preferences. Granted, I'm probably reading a bit much of real-world influences into this, and I understand that they did it for the plot, but again, I really expect some backlash to happen, both on-screen and somewhat amongst the really, really nitpicky fans. Like me. ^_- --'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:54, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:::::The passing over of Colonel Tigh for the post of ''Pegasus'' Commander needs to be addressed at a later time I believe. Either he was offered the position and passed, his attitude to receiving a command as stated in "Scattered" was well known to Admiral Adama and he knew the offer of promotion would be rejected or Admiral Adama decided he needed him where he was...Hopefully this will be addressed in a later episode. A throwaway line from Admiral Adama to Colonel Tigh such as "Im glad you stayed" or "You know it was yours if you wanted it" would wrap it up and end this speculation! :)--[[User:Simmons|Simmons]] 10:03, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Was Apollo promoted to Commander or simply given command of the Pegasus and stayed at the rank of Major ?. After all it is possible to be the Captain (and referred to as the Captain) of a ship without holding the rank of Captain. Maybe the same thing holds for the Commander designation. Although being given the pips does confuse things but it does seem strange that he jumped almost two command ranks in one go. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 02:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

: Just some thoughts. By its very nature the command structure of the Fleet must be looser than it would be in "normal" circumstances. Seniority has become less important than fitting individuals to function. Tigh has shown himself to be in some ways a superior XO, one upon whom Adama depends. Also, I would maintain that Tigh depends no less upon Bill Adama in order to function. But I wonder if any other "cross-pollenization" of battlestar crews might be wise. [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 11:57, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Apollo was indeed promoted to the rank of Commander Rexpop. Personally, since I haven't read the Articles of Colonial Field Promotions...or whatever...I can't say that Lee's promotion was in breach of any protocol...maybe IRL it would be...but in the RDM universe, who knows.
Personally I think that the promotion to Commander reflects Apollos actions. He assumed command of the Pegasus when she was allready faceing 3 Basestars, with potentially up to 2,400 Raiders, and the Pegasus allready heavily damaged...and he was able to not only pull it out of the fire and escape, but heavily damaged/crippled one Basestar in the process. I'd say that he deserves the promotion to Commander. --[[User:Strato|Strato]]

On further thought it makes sense that Lee was probably the only viable candidate in fleet. The reasoning is as follows:

First up lets identify the potential candidates that we know about on Galactica. After the attack the command staff on Galactica was Adama, Colonel Tigh, Captain Kelly, Major Cottle and Lee. There are no other senior officers that we know about and given that Captain Kelly was second officer its unlikely there were others.

On Pegasus things are a little more vague. We know that Fisk was a Colonel and that Garner was not a command officer but the chief engineer so its likely that he held at least the rank of Major. With both officers gone it is likely the highest command officer left on Pegasus was probably no higher than the rank of Major. And given that Pegasus was in for a refit at the time of the attack it was likely that like Galactica the ship was light on senior officers.

So at the end we are left with four candidates that we the audience knows about. Tigh, Lee, Cottle and Kelly. Tigh has made it clear that he doesn't want command and Adama would likely pass him over due to his personal issues with the bottle. Cottle would probably not be considered due to not being a command officer and the lack of doctors in the fleet.

Kelly is a good candidate and is probably on a par with Lee, but where Lee wins out over Kelly is that Kelly doesn't have experience in commanding a Battlestar, only as an XO. Admittedly Lee only has one engagement under his belt, but he was thrown into the fire and came out singed but intact. Kelly doesn't have that so that puts Lee ahead. So under the circumstances (and the limited pool to draw on) Lee is pretty much is the best candidate that we know about for the job.

Now the only question that I have is why hasn't Kelly been made first officer of the Pegasus ?. It would seem that he would be a natural choice given that it was strongly hinted in the mini-series that he was in line for a promotion to a first officer position after his tour of duty was over. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 14:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:Don't forget that Cain had already had her first XO executed, so Col. Fisk had probably been promoted from a lower rank already. As for Kelly vs. Lee Adama, it's not entirely clear which of them have seniority. Lee was under arrest when Kelly was acting as Tigh's XO. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

==Survivor Count==
The survivor count went down by six even though we saw seven deaths in the last episode. This could be explained by the well established fact that cylon deaths do not result in a dropping of the count. It has long been speculated that [[Billy|Billy]] is/was a cylon. If this is true it would explain the loss of only six from the count. That said, it is also possible, even probable that there was a birth. In the podcast for [[Sacrifice|Sacrifice]] it is said that Billy was killed off just because the actor portraying him wished to pursue other projects. Thoughts?--[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 02:30, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:No, for two reasons: One, we actually saw the White Board of Death to confirm numbers, Two: occasionally there are births in the fleet which make the number go up slightly. Although this could never account for the sudden, unexplained gain of 50 people at a time or something, it does go to explain why sometimes there are episodes where a lot of people die, but the survivor count doesn't drop that much.
--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

::I don't understand what you're saying. Im not disputing the numbers, im giving a possible explination for why the number went down by only six when we see seven people (pehaps one of them a cylon) dying in the previous episode. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 03:37, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Seven people die on screen. 2 more die off screen. 3 babies are born off screen. We don't hear about these second two events, but they still ''happen'', and when we see the renewed survivor count, it's a ''Net'' loss of six, and so forth. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Whether Billy is a Cylon is not an issue for the Survivor Count (fleet population). President Roslin wouldn't yet be aware, so it would not be a factor in the population count, and therefore to mention the speculation about Billy wasn't really relevant. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 04:15, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Yeah thats a good point that the president wouldnt know, youre right. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 21:38, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Tigh and Seniority ==

In the questions, I wonder if the reference to Tigh's "seniority" is even relevent. This isn't a situation analogous to the time (now-Admiral) Adama was shot because in that case, Tigh was the most senior officer PERIOD, and here now Tigh is, of course, not. Adama, as the ranking flag officer (Admiral, if not Commander, and up), presumably has the authority to make promotions as he sees fit. While I'm sure anyone would agree that the promotion of Lee to Commander was unusual, does anybody really think promoting Tigh would have seemed like a good idea to anyone in the fleet? Just curious. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 05:31, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't see the fuss: Col. Tigh himself has stated repeatedly that he does not want a command of his own, and only wants to work as a team with William Adama. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 05:39, 18 February 2006 (EST)

BTW; a note on units: someone mentions that "40 SU" is a long distance away in space for Pegasus. I think that must mean "Stellar Unit", as opposed to our standardized "Astronomical Unit (AU)" (distance from Earth to the sun).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:01, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Pegasus Technology / Technicalities ==
=== Landing Strips & Weaponry ===

Amazing Battle Sequence in this episode. It was nice to finally get to see Pegasus retake her Vipers via both the upper and lower Landing strips.
when I first saw her from this angle http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Pegasus01.jpg I suspected she had 4 landing strips, and now that I have seen them in use, I feel vindicated. What do we know if anything about the 2 Bough Battery's Pegasus was firing at the middle Basestar? The shells seem to be the same size or larger than a viper?--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

:Also, the fact that one of them is inverted confirms that the colonials can maniuplate artificial gravity fields selectively. This was suspected from some shots of the botanical cruiser with a few domes upside down, but this is more explicit and a more extreme difference (the two strips are back to back). --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 17:38, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't think we could really tell what was upside down or not; I got the impressing that they were just flipping the ''camera angle'' to show that Pegasus was flipping around; more detail when we get the DVDs.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 18:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:From what I saw, half of the Vipers rotated to land on the bottom two Pegasus decks. Starbuck was clearly upside down. It can also be seen that Vipers landing on lower deck of the flight pod were rotating to land from the Vipers landing on the upper deck. This is the first time we see that all Viper's land on opposite sides of the same surface. I'm wondering how they are going to explain or show that the gravity is opposite from the rest of the ship.--[[User:Jedivulcan|Jedivulcan]]

::I hope they don't bother. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:10, 18 February 2006 (EST)

They haven't yet explained how they crerate Artificial Gravity onboard the ships yet...I assume its some sort of gravplating...or something...as usual its one of those suspension of disbelief things you just have to kind of accept (for that matter how do they prevent people from flaoting in Zero G in the Raptors?), but the Pegasus clearly has 4 Landing Strips,a nd uses them, there is no need to wait "for the DVD's". For Viper Raptor landings however, they don't relie on Artificial Gravity, they land their skids on magnetic "traps".--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

::See the [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] article for discussion on artificial gravity. I'm betting more on magnetism on this: Why? Watch the [[Miniseries]], when ''Colonial Heavy 798'' first docks on ''Galactica'' for the decomissioning ceremonies. You'll see two spacesuited workers who are ''floating'' while they're working. If this was gravity, these guys would NOT float. Doesn't give us a direct answer, but it eliminates "selective" gravity adjustments. Confirm this with how the Vipers make combat landings; they bounce a lot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:20, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:::Ahh, but we also see the flight pod that has been converted to a museum was in possession of artificial gravity in the decommissioning ceremonies. I'm not adding this to rule out your theory Spencerian, but merely to add that we don't have any clear evidence to say whether they can switch the artificial gravity on or off in the flight pods (the museum could also been an anomaly all its own). --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 00:25, 20 February 2006 (EST)

::::Another thing, the starboard flight deck (the one converted to a museum) still had its artificial gravity active when the Heavy Raider crashed into it in "[[Scattered]]" -- the Raider stays anchored to the deck and Cylons can be seen walking out of it. Since the whole starboard pod was pretty much abandoned, why would they leave the gravity on and thus using unnecessary power? --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 02:02, 20 February 2006 (EST)

: I watched the episode again tonight, and paid extra-careful attention to how the Vipers were recovered. During the sequence, a few Vipers are flying with their dorsal vertical stabilizer and canopy away from our POV (so we see their underside), and a few Vipers (Thrace's among them) are flying with their vertical stabilizer and canopy towards our POV (so we're looking "down" at the top of the pilot's head). If you watch carefully, the former Vipers "disappear" into the upper landing bay, and the camera tracks along with the latter Vipers as they land in the lower landing bay. Because we're so disoriented, we might ''think'' that we're the ones that are hanging upside-down, when, in fact, the Vipers are the ones doing the inversion. Because in Space, there is no up or down, this is entirely feasible, and recovery is just as accomplishable in both orientations, especially when one factors in Spencerian's suggestion of magnetic plates. The only real mystery to us, then, is how they re-orient everything once '''''inside''''' the flight pod's internal compartments. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 01:28, 21 February 2006 (EST)

=== Class Capability ===

I removed the following entry from the article's "Notes" section: 
: [[Mercury class battlestar]]s do not need to retract their flight pods prior to a jump, unlike the [[Galactica type battlestar|Galactica type]]. 
I felt this statement was superfluous and unneeded, since ''Mercury''-class Battlestars '''''cannot''''' retract their flight pods before jumping to FTL; it's not a question of needing to or not. The design of the ''Mercury''-class is closest to the original (original series) model, with fixed flight pods and external hull plating and lines. Why TPTB included retractable/deployable flight pods on ''Galactica's'' class is anyone's guess — it's a neat feature, both visually and stylistically — but I don't think it's necessary to the performance of the FTL drive. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 20:29, 18 February 2006 (EST)
: I could see the retractable flight pods on the ''Galactica'' type used to make a sealed enviroment when closed to create an atmosphere on the deck. I would say it could logically allow a way for people to disembark larger craft like ''Colonial One'' when they dock, however its been proven that craft like that use an airlock gantry way for that purpose. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 20:43, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm restoring this. We may have suspected that Pegasus can't and/or doesn't retract its flight pods, but before this episode, but we didn't ''know''.--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:48, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== "Property"? ==

I'm a little sketchy on current United States legal terminology, but they said that "Under Gemenese law, minors are the "property" of their parents"--->Is the term "property" used by the United States, or any Western nation for that matter? I don't know. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:03, 18 February 2006 (EST)
:Under United States law, no, minors are not property. In practical terms, the situation is a little more complicated. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 18 February 2006 (EST)

::I do not understand. Further, how could she be "property"?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:13, 18 February 2006 (EST)
:::In theory, children are absolutely not "property" under united states law, which grants equal protection not only to all citizens ''of'' the United States, but to all ''persons'' ''within'' the United States. In practice, legal guardians have a wide range of authority over their charges. Of particular relevance to this episode, some jurisdictions require minors to notify their parents prior to an abortion. A friend of mine who sued for emancipation from her parents has told me that in her opinion, there's little practical distinction between the status of an legal minor and "property". I suspect it's a matter of perspective, really. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:40, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== "To Be, or Not... To Be" ==

I removed the following entry from the article's "Notes" section:
: [[Roslin]] references Shakespeare's ''Merchant of Venice'' when she asks [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] if she wants her "pound of flesh". It's unclear if analogues of his work exist in the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Colonies]].

I think that the phrase "pound of flesh" has become quite familiar in modern culture and literary circles, such that it really doesn't warrant significance in citing. It has been used in countless movies and TV episodes without citation (not that I think a phrase can be copyrighted to such an extent), and I haven't seen the writers of ''Law & Order'' state, "Yeah, we intentionally alluded to Shakespeare, and wanted the lawyer to give that impression that he was alluding to Shakespeare when he said it in court". Yes, I'm probably going to an extreme, but really, this is just a case of a scriptwriter putting this phrase into the script, and almost certainly has '''''nothing''''' to do with whether or not Shakespeare is familiar to The Colonies. This isn't the Klingons quoting ''Hamlet''. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 21:45, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm also restoring this. The phrase may have a more general meaning, but it is impossible not to make the association with Shakespeare when hearing it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:52, 19 February 2006 (EST)

: I stand by my original action, more so than the other removal I undertook. It is excessive "over-think" to assume (or, create the assumption) that everything spoken in the dialogue must have explanation in or correlation to "canon" terms. "Pound of flesh" is a term, a phrase, plain and simple... and while its origin ''here'' is attributed to Shakespeare, it ''does not mean'', nor imply, that Shakespeare exists in this storyline, or that Shakespeare was somehow influenced by Colonial writing, or that Shakespeare is, or could be, or should be, any part of this storyline. This storyline and Shakespearean writing are completely exclusive of each other, with the exception being, perhaps, that writers here may take dramatic or stylistic cues from Shakespeare (or any other classes of writers). Hey, they're only Human too. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 02:06, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Look, in general, I agree with you that it's not desirable to read too much into things - no, the freighter "greenleaf" is not a Legolas reference, for example. This, however, is very clear. I am going to restore it again for now, and I would like you to leave it be until at least a few others weigh in. At that point, I will be happy to abide by consensus. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 19 February 2006 (EST)

I stand with Farago. Utterly. Two to one, motion stands.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:01, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Please remember that, when content is disputed due to interpretation ([[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|as opposed to sources]]), our policy is to generally leave the item ''within the article'' and to work here on Talk (as done) to gain consensus before leaving the item in permanently. If consensus cannot be reached, one of the [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Special%3AListusers&group=sysop&username= Administrators] here (or other contributor) can call for a vote. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:17, 19 February 2006 (EST)

: Perhaps a compromise can be reached. I adjusted the statement slightly to be more ambiguous. I'm not against the mention of a snippet or insight like this — but, I'm completely opposed to extending an insight into speculation, especially when it involves linking to or placement in the ''canon'' storyline. The contributor who first placed that statement (Alphaboi867) hasn't "shown up" to defend it, and I strongly feel that the original phrasing of it is ungrounded speculation that is linking Shakespeare to the storyline, where no such link has been indicated by TPTB to exist. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:03, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:''Hawke suggests:''
The script for [[Laura Roslin]] references Shakespeare's ''Merchant of Venice'', when she asks [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] if she wants her "pound of flesh". It's unclear as to if the writers are somehow placing Shakespeare's work into the story of [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Colonies]], or if this is just a random "use of phrase" by an inspired scriptwriter.

:This seems verbose. Just stating that she's quoting shakespeare shouldn't imply any position on whether or not he exists in the BSG universe. How about simply stating this in notes:
::[[Laura Roslin]] quotes Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" when she tells [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] that she's gotten her "pound of flesh".
:And, if we feel the need to discuss the implication of this quotation, doing so under Analysis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:10, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:: I would be agreeable to this, so long as it is prefaced with "The script (or dialogue) for [[Laura Roslin]]... (rest of your statement)". I know I'm dicing onions, but I think it's ''crucial'' that there is no implication that Shakespeare exists in The Colonies ''unless'' or ''until'' it is substantiated further. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:19, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:::"Writer Jeff Vlaming references Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" when he has [[Laura Roslin]] tell [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]], "you have your pound of flesh."? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:25, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:::: That works fine, in my opinion. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:28, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Anachronism of using Shakespearian refrences aside for a moment...did anyone else pick up on the distinctive Literal interpretation of Rosalyn's usage of "Pound of Flesh" during this specific conversation? The conversation centers around a teenaged girl who aborted her pregnancy 4 months into the gestation...so the phrase here can be taken with a double meaning...somewhat tastlessly really. (at 4 months the average human fetus weighs approx 300 grams, or a tad shy of a full pound). Another queston beyond Refrencing common Anglo expresions would be what about units of Measurement...why would the 12 Colonies use a standard English Pound as a unit of mass/weight?...--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

:No. Just, just no. Look, I've sworn off yelling at people, but that is A) a complete ''non sequitor'' (it came out of nowhere) and B) disgusting. NO. I mean; Sarah Porter (Rep, Gemenon) is against abortion, so how is letting Rya have an abortion "''giving her''" anything?! Look, this doesn't need a response or anything, but this was a really wacky thing to say Strato (in my opinion). Let's move on now. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:57, 22 February 2006 (EST)

:Do you really want [[Laxon|invented units of measure]]? TOS did it, but considering they're speaking English on the show, I'm willing to concede all units of measure are being "translated" as well (into American English, apparently, since they're not using SI units). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:34, 21 February 2006 (EST)

::Also note that they use feet on their [[Altimeter]]s and Pounds per Square Inch on their pressure valves. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:28, 21 February 2006 (EST)

Its hardly a non-sequitor ...I honestly believe the literal interpretation/double meaning of the phrase is the reason it was chosen, and used by the writers.
I believe that Porter was meant to understand the double meaning as well, and thats why she was as angry as she was...not just because she didn't get her full wishes granted. Is it gross? of course it is. but by refrencing a "pound of flesh" in this context, it not only means that the Gemonese have forced a law outlawing abortion, but that enough blood has litterally and figurativly been spilt on this one issue, and that Rosalyn would not give another inch. I believe that since the entire point of the Abortion issue being raised in the series to look at the morality vs. immorality of a womans right to control her own body, vs. religious beliefs, and the "reality" of repopulating the Colonial fleet, you might as well look at the issue and not just play lipservice to the questions asked in the episode.I by no means am encouraging a flame war on abortion...as our own personal views don't really matter in realtion to the series writing...either way...I would hardly call the point "wacky"--[[User:Strato|Strato]

== Councillor -> Delegate ==
I changed the instances of Councillor to Delegate per [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions#Character_Titles|Article 3 Section 1 of the Standards and Conventions]]. If events occur such that we need to reevaluate the standard title for members of the Quorum, we should probably take it over to the talk at S&C (so that it will be applied everywhere). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:46, 18 February 2006 (EST)

==How much is too much?==

I know this was brought up in another episode of the season, in that we should be mindful of how much information is provided for each episode. For the information that's being provided in summary, how much should we include? Some veteran input would be greatly appreciated. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 15:32, 19 February 2006 (EST)
:I agree that this needs concision badly, and separation between the "A" and "B" plots. Try to stick to the rough outlines of the plot, and save salient details for Notes. Be bold. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:49, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Well I edited a fair bit, taking out some extra explanations. I think we have to look at these summaries as more of a sports recap the day after the game rather then a play-by-play of the whole episode. I think more time should be spent on individual pages (Eg. Lee Adama) rather then explanation what happens to him in detail in the episode. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 19:33, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::: Oh and my apologies to Peter Farago for removing his notable dialogue stuff, had an older copied and pasted version which overwrote your stuff, D'oh!! --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 19:36, 19 February 2006 (EST)
:::No. Wrong. It is more convenient/efficient to describe/question/analyze events in an episode, within that episode's own page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:11, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::Yeah, I think his point is that it's only worth doing if the points are interesting. This is not a transcript, we don't need a blow-by-blow of each quivering facial expression that plays out on Bamber and Sakhoff's faces in any given scene. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:19, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::: Aye, exactly. Thanks for clarifying! Also, it might be easier to just throw it on the episode page, but in the end it has to be done on the character/object/whatever page so why not spend more time putting there instead. (Eg. Apollo getting shot can be mentioned on the episode, but it will have to go on Apollo's page anyway, so no point in being overly descriptive. --22:08, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::::Thank you everyone for the comments. It was really nice to see comments from season vets (Farago) as well as some new faces to the Wiki. The recent summary changes look good, and it it's good to touch on what's consider vague versus verbose through discussions such as this. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 00:55, 20 February 2006 (EST)

==Casualties==

Rexpop writes:
:There may be two further explanations for this (1) that the board hadn't been updated to reflect the damage on the ''Pegasus'' , only the pilots lost. (2) A large number of the ''Galactica'' casualties occurred during the venting of the fire and was largely due to the conflicting damage control orders given by Kelly, Tyrol and Tigh rather than the actual impact of the missile.

I don't think either of these points bears up to scrutiny. As to the first, I'm willing to wait until next friday, but I can almost promise you that the count won't be pushed any lower - we thought something similar after the surprisingly low casualty count between "Valley of Darkness" and "Fragged", but no other deaths were added on later.

As for the second point, that's simply not the case - Tigh knew that if he waited for the repair crews to evacuate, the fuel lines would blow, and Adama not only backed up his decision but said that he'd have made the same one in his place. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:25, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:It would have been amusing if they did blow and the series ended right there. I dunno what we'd be watching in its place, but there's probably plenty of ideas floating around. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:11, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm not disputing whether or not Tigh's decision was or wasn't the correct one. I was making the point that the bulk of the Galactica's casualties (around 80 or so) came from the decision to vent the atmosphere in those sections while the DC teams (that had moved into the section to deal with the fire) were evacuating rather than from the impact of the missile. I've edited the comment to remove the sentence about the DC effort to try and to clear up the point. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 23:12, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Interesting point. We do hear that all the breathing gear was used up in firefighting ops, which the dead deck crew are criticized for neglecting in the mini. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:54, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== what was Baltar working on? ==

When the episode cuts to Laura Rosalyn consulting with Gaius Baltar in his labratory over the population projections for the fleet, Baltar is working on some sort of tissue sample. I am very curious as to what he was doing, and what/whom the tissue sample was taken from?

Talk:The Captain's Hand/Archive 1

2006-02-22T18:40:12Z

Strato: /* "To Be, or Not... To Be" */

==Episode Impressions==

Well I think that was a damn good episode, a good improvement over some of the previous episodes. Tricky for some article editing but overall I know you guys will do a great job on the page. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:02, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:Not bad at all. [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 23:05, 17 February 2006 (EST)

::I agree. Some tense moments, and the Baltar announcement kinda threw me for a second, but overall a refresing change of pace. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)

::Great Episode I thought. The abortion debate was an fascinating piece of art imitating life in my opinion. It will be interesting to see how this pans out as the show continues. --[[User:Simmons|Simmons]] 10:55, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:: With the last few episodes, I was becoming increasingly disillusioned with the apparently magical powers of RDM and his writing team. This episode is more like what I (and, I think, we all) have come to expect from Galactica. [[User:Shred|Shred]] 13:47, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== Not ANOTHER Commander! ==

This episode was topnotch, yes. But this leaves us wikipedians with a bit of a problem. Enter "Commander Adama" and you get William Adama. We'll need a disambig for this new change. Betting that Lee's promotion is temporary, of course. And, for me at least, there's the matter of the new commander living long enough--Pegasus goes through commanders now like I go through a bag of cookies. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:08, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:Perhaps maybe the Pegasus will be around longer than we thought? [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 23:10, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::Or maybe we'll have another Adama cliffhanger, this time with Lee... -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::Methinks those nuke hits will come back to haunt them (especially with the nuke Baltar took coming into play) and Adama will go for either, a) another space walk when the Pegasus goes boom or b) He will be aboard Galactica laughing at Tigh for still being a Colonel. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Personally, as a US Navy vet, I think this was a huge breach in protocol. Granted, I'm loving the show and plotwise it's a good move, the reality of it is that if anything, Tigh would have been promoted to Commander (and probably should have been after the ''Pegasus'' lost its two seniormost officers) and '''perhaps''' Lee promoted to Colonel as the XO. Obviously, there was the huge flareup from when Tigh had command of the fleet, but even still, as XO of ''Galactica'', it should have went to him.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:19, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:I agree with you, and it might make for some good Tigh material later on, with him and Ellen being pissed off for being passed over. But I think because of the reactions he got within the fleet, there would be more trouble then its worth. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::Pretty much what I was thinking as well, especially since ADM Adama and Tigh go way back, so he'll probably see this as a major snub. So again, as a plot issue, I think it works. But I think the whole thing probably could have been handled a bit more realistically. But that's just me. ^_^;;;--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:25, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::Hey, all! New here. And same thoughts here, but not just from Tigh, but maybe from the fleet. Kara didn't seem to care one way or another (or, at least, didn't voice it), but I think some might be extremely angry that Lee went from Major to Commander in a month. [[User:Michael|Michael]] 23:29, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::::As much as it was a breach in protocol, [[Saul_Tigh|Col. Tigh]] might not be miffed as bad as everyone thinks. Recall from [[Scattered]], that he really wasn't interested in "the big chair". I'm thinking that Ellen may have the larger issue of the two. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:41, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::::True, but there is still the matter of OPLANs, NAVREGs (or whatever serves for the fleet). It was as much rules and regulations - some of the stuff that ADM Adama is supposed to adhere to, especially during wartime - as Tigh's preferences. Granted, I'm probably reading a bit much of real-world influences into this, and I understand that they did it for the plot, but again, I really expect some backlash to happen, both on-screen and somewhat amongst the really, really nitpicky fans. Like me. ^_- --'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:54, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:::::The passing over of Colonel Tigh for the post of ''Pegasus'' Commander needs to be addressed at a later time I believe. Either he was offered the position and passed, his attitude to receiving a command as stated in "Scattered" was well known to Admiral Adama and he knew the offer of promotion would be rejected or Admiral Adama decided he needed him where he was...Hopefully this will be addressed in a later episode. A throwaway line from Admiral Adama to Colonel Tigh such as "Im glad you stayed" or "You know it was yours if you wanted it" would wrap it up and end this speculation! :)--[[User:Simmons|Simmons]] 10:03, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Was Apollo promoted to Commander or simply given command of the Pegasus and stayed at the rank of Major ?. After all it is possible to be the Captain (and referred to as the Captain) of a ship without holding the rank of Captain. Maybe the same thing holds for the Commander designation. Although being given the pips does confuse things but it does seem strange that he jumped almost two command ranks in one go. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 02:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

: Just some thoughts. By its very nature the command structure of the Fleet must be looser than it would be in "normal" circumstances. Seniority has become less important than fitting individuals to function. Tigh has shown himself to be in some ways a superior XO, one upon whom Adama depends. Also, I would maintain that Tigh depends no less upon Bill Adama in order to function. But I wonder if any other "cross-pollenization" of battlestar crews might be wise. [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 11:57, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Apollo was indeed promoted to the rank of Commander Rexpop. Personally, since I haven't read the Articles of Colonial Field Promotions...or whatever...I can't say that Lee's promotion was in breach of any protocol...maybe IRL it would be...but in the RDM universe, who knows.
Personally I think that the promotion to Commander reflects Apollos actions. He assumed command of the Pegasus when she was allready faceing 3 Basestars, with potentially up to 2,400 Raiders, and the Pegasus allready heavily damaged...and he was able to not only pull it out of the fire and escape, but heavily damaged/crippled one Basestar in the process. I'd say that he deserves the promotion to Commander. --[[User:Strato|Strato]]

On further thought it makes sense that Lee was probably the only viable candidate in fleet. The reasoning is as follows:

First up lets identify the potential candidates that we know about on Galactica. After the attack the command staff on Galactica was Adama, Colonel Tigh, Captain Kelly, Major Cottle and Lee. There are no other senior officers that we know about and given that Captain Kelly was second officer its unlikely there were others.

On Pegasus things are a little more vague. We know that Fisk was a Colonel and that Garner was not a command officer but the chief engineer so its likely that he held at least the rank of Major. With both officers gone it is likely the highest command officer left on Pegasus was probably no higher than the rank of Major. And given that Pegasus was in for a refit at the time of the attack it was likely that like Galactica the ship was light on senior officers.

So at the end we are left with four candidates that we the audience knows about. Tigh, Lee, Cottle and Kelly. Tigh has made it clear that he doesn't want command and Adama would likely pass him over due to his personal issues with the bottle. Cottle would probably not be considered due to not being a command officer and the lack of doctors in the fleet.

Kelly is a good candidate and is probably on a par with Lee, but where Lee wins out over Kelly is that Kelly doesn't have experience in commanding a Battlestar, only as an XO. Admittedly Lee only has one engagement under his belt, but he was thrown into the fire and came out singed but intact. Kelly doesn't have that so that puts Lee ahead. So under the circumstances (and the limited pool to draw on) Lee is pretty much is the best candidate that we know about for the job.

Now the only question that I have is why hasn't Kelly been made first officer of the Pegasus ?. It would seem that he would be a natural choice given that it was strongly hinted in the mini-series that he was in line for a promotion to a first officer position after his tour of duty was over. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 14:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:Don't forget that Cain had already had her first XO executed, so Col. Fisk had probably been promoted from a lower rank already. As for Kelly vs. Lee Adama, it's not entirely clear which of them have seniority. Lee was under arrest when Kelly was acting as Tigh's XO. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

==Survivor Count==
The survivor count went down by six even though we saw seven deaths in the last episode. This could be explained by the well established fact that cylon deaths do not result in a dropping of the count. It has long been speculated that [[Billy|Billy]] is/was a cylon. If this is true it would explain the loss of only six from the count. That said, it is also possible, even probable that there was a birth. In the podcast for [[Sacrifice|Sacrifice]] it is said that Billy was killed off just because the actor portraying him wished to pursue other projects. Thoughts?--[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 02:30, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:No, for two reasons: One, we actually saw the White Board of Death to confirm numbers, Two: occasionally there are births in the fleet which make the number go up slightly. Although this could never account for the sudden, unexplained gain of 50 people at a time or something, it does go to explain why sometimes there are episodes where a lot of people die, but the survivor count doesn't drop that much.
--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

::I don't understand what you're saying. Im not disputing the numbers, im giving a possible explination for why the number went down by only six when we see seven people (pehaps one of them a cylon) dying in the previous episode. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 03:37, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Seven people die on screen. 2 more die off screen. 3 babies are born off screen. We don't hear about these second two events, but they still ''happen'', and when we see the renewed survivor count, it's a ''Net'' loss of six, and so forth. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Whether Billy is a Cylon is not an issue for the Survivor Count (fleet population). President Roslin wouldn't yet be aware, so it would not be a factor in the population count, and therefore to mention the speculation about Billy wasn't really relevant. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 04:15, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Yeah thats a good point that the president wouldnt know, youre right. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 21:38, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Tigh and Seniority ==

In the questions, I wonder if the reference to Tigh's "seniority" is even relevent. This isn't a situation analogous to the time (now-Admiral) Adama was shot because in that case, Tigh was the most senior officer PERIOD, and here now Tigh is, of course, not. Adama, as the ranking flag officer (Admiral, if not Commander, and up), presumably has the authority to make promotions as he sees fit. While I'm sure anyone would agree that the promotion of Lee to Commander was unusual, does anybody really think promoting Tigh would have seemed like a good idea to anyone in the fleet? Just curious. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 05:31, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't see the fuss: Col. Tigh himself has stated repeatedly that he does not want a command of his own, and only wants to work as a team with William Adama. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 05:39, 18 February 2006 (EST)

BTW; a note on units: someone mentions that "40 SU" is a long distance away in space for Pegasus. I think that must mean "Stellar Unit", as opposed to our standardized "Astronomical Unit (AU)" (distance from Earth to the sun).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:01, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Pegasus Technology / Technicalities ==
=== Landing Strips & Weaponry ===

Amazing Battle Sequence in this episode. It was nice to finally get to see Pegasus retake her Vipers via both the upper and lower Landing strips.
when I first saw her from this angle http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Pegasus01.jpg I suspected she had 4 landing strips, and now that I have seen them in use, I feel vindicated. What do we know if anything about the 2 Bough Battery's Pegasus was firing at the middle Basestar? The shells seem to be the same size or larger than a viper?--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

:Also, the fact that one of them is inverted confirms that the colonials can maniuplate artificial gravity fields selectively. This was suspected from some shots of the botanical cruiser with a few domes upside down, but this is more explicit and a more extreme difference (the two strips are back to back). --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 17:38, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't think we could really tell what was upside down or not; I got the impressing that they were just flipping the ''camera angle'' to show that Pegasus was flipping around; more detail when we get the DVDs.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 18:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:From what I saw, half of the Vipers rotated to land on the bottom two Pegasus decks. Starbuck was clearly upside down. It can also be seen that Vipers landing on lower deck of the flight pod were rotating to land from the Vipers landing on the upper deck. This is the first time we see that all Viper's land on opposite sides of the same surface. I'm wondering how they are going to explain or show that the gravity is opposite from the rest of the ship.--[[User:Jedivulcan|Jedivulcan]]

::I hope they don't bother. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:10, 18 February 2006 (EST)

They haven't yet explained how they crerate Artificial Gravity onboard the ships yet...I assume its some sort of gravplating...or something...as usual its one of those suspension of disbelief things you just have to kind of accept (for that matter how do they prevent people from flaoting in Zero G in the Raptors?), but the Pegasus clearly has 4 Landing Strips,a nd uses them, there is no need to wait "for the DVD's". For Viper Raptor landings however, they don't relie on Artificial Gravity, they land their skids on magnetic "traps".--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

::See the [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] article for discussion on artificial gravity. I'm betting more on magnetism on this: Why? Watch the [[Miniseries]], when ''Colonial Heavy 798'' first docks on ''Galactica'' for the decomissioning ceremonies. You'll see two spacesuited workers who are ''floating'' while they're working. If this was gravity, these guys would NOT float. Doesn't give us a direct answer, but it eliminates "selective" gravity adjustments. Confirm this with how the Vipers make combat landings; they bounce a lot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:20, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:::Ahh, but we also see the flight pod that has been converted to a museum was in possession of artificial gravity in the decommissioning ceremonies. I'm not adding this to rule out your theory Spencerian, but merely to add that we don't have any clear evidence to say whether they can switch the artificial gravity on or off in the flight pods (the museum could also been an anomaly all its own). --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 00:25, 20 February 2006 (EST)

::::Another thing, the starboard flight deck (the one converted to a museum) still had its artificial gravity active when the Heavy Raider crashed into it in "[[Scattered]]" -- the Raider stays anchored to the deck and Cylons can be seen walking out of it. Since the whole starboard pod was pretty much abandoned, why would they leave the gravity on and thus using unnecessary power? --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 02:02, 20 February 2006 (EST)

: I watched the episode again tonight, and paid extra-careful attention to how the Vipers were recovered. During the sequence, a few Vipers are flying with their dorsal vertical stabilizer and canopy away from our POV (so we see their underside), and a few Vipers (Thrace's among them) are flying with their vertical stabilizer and canopy towards our POV (so we're looking "down" at the top of the pilot's head). If you watch carefully, the former Vipers "disappear" into the upper landing bay, and the camera tracks along with the latter Vipers as they land in the lower landing bay. Because we're so disoriented, we might ''think'' that we're the ones that are hanging upside-down, when, in fact, the Vipers are the ones doing the inversion. Because in Space, there is no up or down, this is entirely feasible, and recovery is just as accomplishable in both orientations, especially when one factors in Spencerian's suggestion of magnetic plates. The only real mystery to us, then, is how they re-orient everything once '''''inside''''' the flight pod's internal compartments. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 01:28, 21 February 2006 (EST)

=== Class Capability ===

I removed the following entry from the article's "Notes" section: 
: [[Mercury class battlestar]]s do not need to retract their flight pods prior to a jump, unlike the [[Galactica type battlestar|Galactica type]]. 
I felt this statement was superfluous and unneeded, since ''Mercury''-class Battlestars '''''cannot''''' retract their flight pods before jumping to FTL; it's not a question of needing to or not. The design of the ''Mercury''-class is closest to the original (original series) model, with fixed flight pods and external hull plating and lines. Why TPTB included retractable/deployable flight pods on ''Galactica's'' class is anyone's guess — it's a neat feature, both visually and stylistically — but I don't think it's necessary to the performance of the FTL drive. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 20:29, 18 February 2006 (EST)
: I could see the retractable flight pods on the ''Galactica'' type used to make a sealed enviroment when closed to create an atmosphere on the deck. I would say it could logically allow a way for people to disembark larger craft like ''Colonial One'' when they dock, however its been proven that craft like that use an airlock gantry way for that purpose. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 20:43, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm restoring this. We may have suspected that Pegasus can't and/or doesn't retract its flight pods, but before this episode, but we didn't ''know''.--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:48, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== "Property"? ==

I'm a little sketchy on current United States legal terminology, but they said that "Under Gemenese law, minors are the "property" of their parents"--->Is the term "property" used by the United States, or any Western nation for that matter? I don't know. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:03, 18 February 2006 (EST)
:Under United States law, no, minors are not property. In practical terms, the situation is a little more complicated. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 18 February 2006 (EST)

::I do not understand. Further, how could she be "property"?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:13, 18 February 2006 (EST)
:::In theory, children are absolutely not "property" under united states law, which grants equal protection not only to all citizens ''of'' the United States, but to all ''persons'' ''within'' the United States. In practice, legal guardians have a wide range of authority over their charges. Of particular relevance to this episode, some jurisdictions require minors to notify their parents prior to an abortion. A friend of mine who sued for emancipation from her parents has told me that in her opinion, there's little practical distinction between the status of an legal minor and "property". I suspect it's a matter of perspective, really. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:40, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== "To Be, or Not... To Be" ==

I removed the following entry from the article's "Notes" section:
: [[Roslin]] references Shakespeare's ''Merchant of Venice'' when she asks [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] if she wants her "pound of flesh". It's unclear if analogues of his work exist in the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Colonies]].

I think that the phrase "pound of flesh" has become quite familiar in modern culture and literary circles, such that it really doesn't warrant significance in citing. It has been used in countless movies and TV episodes without citation (not that I think a phrase can be copyrighted to such an extent), and I haven't seen the writers of ''Law & Order'' state, "Yeah, we intentionally alluded to Shakespeare, and wanted the lawyer to give that impression that he was alluding to Shakespeare when he said it in court". Yes, I'm probably going to an extreme, but really, this is just a case of a scriptwriter putting this phrase into the script, and almost certainly has '''''nothing''''' to do with whether or not Shakespeare is familiar to The Colonies. This isn't the Klingons quoting ''Hamlet''. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 21:45, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm also restoring this. The phrase may have a more general meaning, but it is impossible not to make the association with Shakespeare when hearing it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:52, 19 February 2006 (EST)

: I stand by my original action, more so than the other removal I undertook. It is excessive "over-think" to assume (or, create the assumption) that everything spoken in the dialogue must have explanation in or correlation to "canon" terms. "Pound of flesh" is a term, a phrase, plain and simple... and while its origin ''here'' is attributed to Shakespeare, it ''does not mean'', nor imply, that Shakespeare exists in this storyline, or that Shakespeare was somehow influenced by Colonial writing, or that Shakespeare is, or could be, or should be, any part of this storyline. This storyline and Shakespearean writing are completely exclusive of each other, with the exception being, perhaps, that writers here may take dramatic or stylistic cues from Shakespeare (or any other classes of writers). Hey, they're only Human too. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 02:06, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Look, in general, I agree with you that it's not desirable to read too much into things - no, the freighter "greenleaf" is not a Legolas reference, for example. This, however, is very clear. I am going to restore it again for now, and I would like you to leave it be until at least a few others weigh in. At that point, I will be happy to abide by consensus. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 19 February 2006 (EST)

I stand with Farago. Utterly. Two to one, motion stands.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:01, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Please remember that, when content is disputed due to interpretation ([[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|as opposed to sources]]), our policy is to generally leave the item ''within the article'' and to work here on Talk (as done) to gain consensus before leaving the item in permanently. If consensus cannot be reached, one of the [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Special%3AListusers&group=sysop&username= Administrators] here (or other contributor) can call for a vote. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:17, 19 February 2006 (EST)

: Perhaps a compromise can be reached. I adjusted the statement slightly to be more ambiguous. I'm not against the mention of a snippet or insight like this — but, I'm completely opposed to extending an insight into speculation, especially when it involves linking to or placement in the ''canon'' storyline. The contributor who first placed that statement (Alphaboi867) hasn't "shown up" to defend it, and I strongly feel that the original phrasing of it is ungrounded speculation that is linking Shakespeare to the storyline, where no such link has been indicated by TPTB to exist. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:03, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:''Hawke suggests:''
The script for [[Laura Roslin]] references Shakespeare's ''Merchant of Venice'', when she asks [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] if she wants her "pound of flesh". It's unclear as to if the writers are somehow placing Shakespeare's work into the story of [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Colonies]], or if this is just a random "use of phrase" by an inspired scriptwriter.

:This seems verbose. Just stating that she's quoting shakespeare shouldn't imply any position on whether or not he exists in the BSG universe. How about simply stating this in notes:
::[[Laura Roslin]] quotes Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" when she tells [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] that she's gotten her "pound of flesh".
:And, if we feel the need to discuss the implication of this quotation, doing so under Analysis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:10, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:: I would be agreeable to this, so long as it is prefaced with "The script (or dialogue) for [[Laura Roslin]]... (rest of your statement)". I know I'm dicing onions, but I think it's ''crucial'' that there is no implication that Shakespeare exists in The Colonies ''unless'' or ''until'' it is substantiated further. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:19, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:::"Writer Jeff Vlaming references Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" when he has [[Laura Roslin]] tell [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]], "you have your pound of flesh."? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:25, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:::: That works fine, in my opinion. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:28, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Anachronism of using Shakespearian refrences aside for a moment...did anyone else pick up on the distinctive Literal interpretation of Rosalyn's usage of "Pound of Flesh" during this specific conversation? The conversation centers around a teenaged girl who aborted her pregnancy 4 months into the gestation...so the phrase here can be taken with a double meaning...somewhat tastlessly really. (at 4 months the average human fetus weighs approx 300 grams, or a tad shy of a full pound). Another queston beyond Refrencing common Anglo expresions would be what about units of Measurement...why would the 12 Colonies use a standard English Pound as a unit of mass/weight?...--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

:No. Just, just no. Look, I've sworn off yelling at people, but that is A) a complete ''non sequitor'' (it came out of nowhere) and B) disgusting. NO. I mean; Sarah Porter (Rep, Gemenon) is against abortion, so how is letting Rya have an abortion "''giving her''" anything?! Look, this doesn't need a response or anything, but this was a really wacky thing to say Strato (in my opinion). Let's move on now. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:57, 22 February 2006 (EST)

:Do you really want [[Laxon|invented units of measure]]? TOS did it, but considering they're speaking English on the show, I'm willing to concede all units of measure are being "translated" as well (into American English, apparently, since they're not using SI units). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:34, 21 February 2006 (EST)

::Also note that they use feet on their [[Altimeter]]s and Pounds per Square Inch on their pressure valves. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:28, 21 February 2006 (EST)

Its hardly a non-sequitor ...I honestly believe the literal interpretation/double meaning of the phrase is the reason is was chosen, and used by the writers.
I believe that Porter was meant to understand the double meaning as well, and thats why she was as angry as she was...not just because she didn't get her full wishes granted. Is it gross? of course it is. but by refrencing a "pound of flesh" in this context, it not only means that the Gemonese have forced a law outlawing abortion, but that enough blood has litterally and figurativly been spilt on this one issue, and that Rosalyn would not give another inch. I believe that since the entire point of the Abortion issue being raised in the series to look at the morality vs. immorality of a womans right to control her own body, vs. religious beliefs, and the "reality" of repopulating the Colonial fleet, you might as well look at the issue and not just play lipservice to the questions asked in the episode.I by no means am encouraging a flame war on abortion...as our own personal views don't really matter in realtion to the series writing...either way...I would hardly call the point "wacky"--[[User:Strato|Strato]

== Councillor -> Delegate ==
I changed the instances of Councillor to Delegate per [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions#Character_Titles|Article 3 Section 1 of the Standards and Conventions]]. If events occur such that we need to reevaluate the standard title for members of the Quorum, we should probably take it over to the talk at S&C (so that it will be applied everywhere). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:46, 18 February 2006 (EST)

==How much is too much?==

I know this was brought up in another episode of the season, in that we should be mindful of how much information is provided for each episode. For the information that's being provided in summary, how much should we include? Some veteran input would be greatly appreciated. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 15:32, 19 February 2006 (EST)
:I agree that this needs concision badly, and separation between the "A" and "B" plots. Try to stick to the rough outlines of the plot, and save salient details for Notes. Be bold. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:49, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Well I edited a fair bit, taking out some extra explanations. I think we have to look at these summaries as more of a sports recap the day after the game rather then a play-by-play of the whole episode. I think more time should be spent on individual pages (Eg. Lee Adama) rather then explanation what happens to him in detail in the episode. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 19:33, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::: Oh and my apologies to Peter Farago for removing his notable dialogue stuff, had an older copied and pasted version which overwrote your stuff, D'oh!! --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 19:36, 19 February 2006 (EST)
:::No. Wrong. It is more convenient/efficient to describe/question/analyze events in an episode, within that episode's own page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:11, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::Yeah, I think his point is that it's only worth doing if the points are interesting. This is not a transcript, we don't need a blow-by-blow of each quivering facial expression that plays out on Bamber and Sakhoff's faces in any given scene. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:19, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::: Aye, exactly. Thanks for clarifying! Also, it might be easier to just throw it on the episode page, but in the end it has to be done on the character/object/whatever page so why not spend more time putting there instead. (Eg. Apollo getting shot can be mentioned on the episode, but it will have to go on Apollo's page anyway, so no point in being overly descriptive. --22:08, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::::Thank you everyone for the comments. It was really nice to see comments from season vets (Farago) as well as some new faces to the Wiki. The recent summary changes look good, and it it's good to touch on what's consider vague versus verbose through discussions such as this. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 00:55, 20 February 2006 (EST)

==Casualties==

Rexpop writes:
:There may be two further explanations for this (1) that the board hadn't been updated to reflect the damage on the ''Pegasus'' , only the pilots lost. (2) A large number of the ''Galactica'' casualties occurred during the venting of the fire and was largely due to the conflicting damage control orders given by Kelly, Tyrol and Tigh rather than the actual impact of the missile.

I don't think either of these points bears up to scrutiny. As to the first, I'm willing to wait until next friday, but I can almost promise you that the count won't be pushed any lower - we thought something similar after the surprisingly low casualty count between "Valley of Darkness" and "Fragged", but no other deaths were added on later.

As for the second point, that's simply not the case - Tigh knew that if he waited for the repair crews to evacuate, the fuel lines would blow, and Adama not only backed up his decision but said that he'd have made the same one in his place. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:25, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:It would have been amusing if they did blow and the series ended right there. I dunno what we'd be watching in its place, but there's probably plenty of ideas floating around. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:11, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm not disputing whether or not Tigh's decision was or wasn't the correct one. I was making the point that the bulk of the Galactica's casualties (around 80 or so) came from the decision to vent the atmosphere in those sections while the DC teams (that had moved into the section to deal with the fire) were evacuating rather than from the impact of the missile. I've edited the comment to remove the sentence about the DC effort to try and to clear up the point. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 23:12, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Interesting point. We do hear that all the breathing gear was used up in firefighting ops, which the dead deck crew are criticized for neglecting in the mini. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:54, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== what was Baltar working on? ==

When the episode cuts to Laura Rosalyn consulting with Gaius Baltar in his labratory over the population projections for the fleet, Baltar is working on some sort of tissue sample. I am very curious as to what he was doing, and what/whom the tissue sample was taken from?

Talk:The Captain's Hand/Archive 1

2006-02-21T21:30:19Z

Strato: what was Baltar working on?

==Episode Impressions==

Well I think that was a damn good episode, a good improvement over some of the previous episodes. Tricky for some article editing but overall I know you guys will do a great job on the page. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:02, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:Not bad at all. [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 23:05, 17 February 2006 (EST)

::I agree. Some tense moments, and the Baltar announcement kinda threw me for a second, but overall a refresing change of pace. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)

::Great Episode I thought. The abortion debate was an fascinating piece of art imitating life in my opinion. It will be interesting to see how this pans out as the show continues. --[[User:Simmons|Simmons]] 10:55, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:: With the last few episodes, I was becoming increasingly disillusioned with the apparently magical powers of RDM and his writing team. This episode is more like what I (and, I think, we all) have come to expect from Galactica. [[User:Shred|Shred]] 13:47, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== Not ANOTHER Commander! ==

This episode was topnotch, yes. But this leaves us wikipedians with a bit of a problem. Enter "Commander Adama" and you get William Adama. We'll need a disambig for this new change. Betting that Lee's promotion is temporary, of course. And, for me at least, there's the matter of the new commander living long enough--Pegasus goes through commanders now like I go through a bag of cookies. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:08, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:Perhaps maybe the Pegasus will be around longer than we thought? [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 23:10, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::Or maybe we'll have another Adama cliffhanger, this time with Lee... -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::Methinks those nuke hits will come back to haunt them (especially with the nuke Baltar took coming into play) and Adama will go for either, a) another space walk when the Pegasus goes boom or b) He will be aboard Galactica laughing at Tigh for still being a Colonel. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Personally, as a US Navy vet, I think this was a huge breach in protocol. Granted, I'm loving the show and plotwise it's a good move, the reality of it is that if anything, Tigh would have been promoted to Commander (and probably should have been after the ''Pegasus'' lost its two seniormost officers) and '''perhaps''' Lee promoted to Colonel as the XO. Obviously, there was the huge flareup from when Tigh had command of the fleet, but even still, as XO of ''Galactica'', it should have went to him.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:19, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:I agree with you, and it might make for some good Tigh material later on, with him and Ellen being pissed off for being passed over. But I think because of the reactions he got within the fleet, there would be more trouble then its worth. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::Pretty much what I was thinking as well, especially since ADM Adama and Tigh go way back, so he'll probably see this as a major snub. So again, as a plot issue, I think it works. But I think the whole thing probably could have been handled a bit more realistically. But that's just me. ^_^;;;--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:25, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::Hey, all! New here. And same thoughts here, but not just from Tigh, but maybe from the fleet. Kara didn't seem to care one way or another (or, at least, didn't voice it), but I think some might be extremely angry that Lee went from Major to Commander in a month. [[User:Michael|Michael]] 23:29, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::::As much as it was a breach in protocol, [[Saul_Tigh|Col. Tigh]] might not be miffed as bad as everyone thinks. Recall from [[Scattered]], that he really wasn't interested in "the big chair". I'm thinking that Ellen may have the larger issue of the two. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:41, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::::True, but there is still the matter of OPLANs, NAVREGs (or whatever serves for the fleet). It was as much rules and regulations - some of the stuff that ADM Adama is supposed to adhere to, especially during wartime - as Tigh's preferences. Granted, I'm probably reading a bit much of real-world influences into this, and I understand that they did it for the plot, but again, I really expect some backlash to happen, both on-screen and somewhat amongst the really, really nitpicky fans. Like me. ^_- --'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:54, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:::::The passing over of Colonel Tigh for the post of ''Pegasus'' Commander needs to be addressed at a later time I believe. Either he was offered the position and passed, his attitude to receiving a command as stated in "Scattered" was well known to Admiral Adama and he knew the offer of promotion would be rejected or Admiral Adama decided he needed him where he was...Hopefully this will be addressed in a later episode. A throwaway line from Admiral Adama to Colonel Tigh such as "Im glad you stayed" or "You know it was yours if you wanted it" would wrap it up and end this speculation! :)--[[User:Simmons|Simmons]] 10:03, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Was Apollo promoted to Commander or simply given command of the Pegasus and stayed at the rank of Major ?. After all it is possible to be the Captain (and referred to as the Captain) of a ship without holding the rank of Captain. Maybe the same thing holds for the Commander designation. Although being given the pips does confuse things but it does seem strange that he jumped almost two command ranks in one go. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 02:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

: Just some thoughts. By its very nature the command structure of the Fleet must be looser than it would be in "normal" circumstances. Seniority has become less important than fitting individuals to function. Tigh has shown himself to be in some ways a superior XO, one upon whom Adama depends. Also, I would maintain that Tigh depends no less upon Bill Adama in order to function. But I wonder if any other "cross-pollenization" of battlestar crews might be wise. [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 11:57, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Apollo was indeed promoted to the rank of Commander Rexpop. Personally, since I haven't read the Articles of Colonial Field Promotions...or whatever...I can't say that Lee's promotion was in breach of any protocol...maybe IRL it would be...but in the RDM universe, who knows.
Personally I think that the promotion to Commander reflects Apollos actions. He assumed command of the Pegasus when she was allready faceing 3 Basestars, with potentially up to 2,400 Raiders, and the Pegasus allready heavily damaged...and he was able to not only pull it out of the fire and escape, but heavily damaged/crippled one Basestar in the process. I'd say that he deserves the promotion to Commander. --[[User:Strato|Strato]]

On further thought it makes sense that Lee was probably the only viable candidate in fleet. The reasoning is as follows:

First up lets identify the potential candidates that we know about on Galactica. After the attack the command staff on Galactica was Adama, Colonel Tigh, Captain Kelly, Major Cottle and Lee. There are no other senior officers that we know about and given that Captain Kelly was second officer its unlikely there were others.

On Pegasus things are a little more vague. We know that Fisk was a Colonel and that Garner was not a command officer but the chief engineer so its likely that he held at least the rank of Major. With both officers gone it is likely the highest command officer left on Pegasus was probably no higher than the rank of Major. And given that Pegasus was in for a refit at the time of the attack it was likely that like Galactica the ship was light on senior officers.

So at the end we are left with four candidates that we the audience knows about. Tigh, Lee, Cottle and Kelly. Tigh has made it clear that he doesn't want command and Adama would likely pass him over due to his personal issues with the bottle. Cottle would probably not be considered due to not being a command officer and the lack of doctors in the fleet.

Kelly is a good candidate and is probably on a par with Lee, but where Lee wins out over Kelly is that Kelly doesn't have experience in commanding a Battlestar, only as an XO. Admittedly Lee only has one engagement under his belt, but he was thrown into the fire and came out singed but intact. Kelly doesn't have that so that puts Lee ahead. So under the circumstances (and the limited pool to draw on) Lee is pretty much is the best candidate that we know about for the job.

Now the only question that I have is why hasn't Kelly been made first officer of the Pegasus ?. It would seem that he would be a natural choice given that it was strongly hinted in the mini-series that he was in line for a promotion to a first officer position after his tour of duty was over. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 14:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:Don't forget that Cain had already had her first XO executed, so Col. Fisk had probably been promoted from a lower rank already. As for Kelly vs. Lee Adama, it's not entirely clear which of them have seniority. Lee was under arrest when Kelly was acting as Tigh's XO. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

==Survivor Count==
The survivor count went down by six even though we saw seven deaths in the last episode. This could be explained by the well established fact that cylon deaths do not result in a dropping of the count. It has long been speculated that [[Billy|Billy]] is/was a cylon. If this is true it would explain the loss of only six from the count. That said, it is also possible, even probable that there was a birth. In the podcast for [[Sacrifice|Sacrifice]] it is said that Billy was killed off just because the actor portraying him wished to pursue other projects. Thoughts?--[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 02:30, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:No, for two reasons: One, we actually saw the White Board of Death to confirm numbers, Two: occasionally there are births in the fleet which make the number go up slightly. Although this could never account for the sudden, unexplained gain of 50 people at a time or something, it does go to explain why sometimes there are episodes where a lot of people die, but the survivor count doesn't drop that much.
--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

::I don't understand what you're saying. Im not disputing the numbers, im giving a possible explination for why the number went down by only six when we see seven people (pehaps one of them a cylon) dying in the previous episode. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 03:37, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Seven people die on screen. 2 more die off screen. 3 babies are born off screen. We don't hear about these second two events, but they still ''happen'', and when we see the renewed survivor count, it's a ''Net'' loss of six, and so forth. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Whether Billy is a Cylon is not an issue for the Survivor Count (fleet population). President Roslin wouldn't yet be aware, so it would not be a factor in the population count, and therefore to mention the speculation about Billy wasn't really relevant. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 04:15, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Yeah thats a good point that the president wouldnt know, youre right. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 21:38, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Tigh and Seniority ==

In the questions, I wonder if the reference to Tigh's "seniority" is even relevent. This isn't a situation analogous to the time (now-Admiral) Adama was shot because in that case, Tigh was the most senior officer PERIOD, and here now Tigh is, of course, not. Adama, as the ranking flag officer (Admiral, if not Commander, and up), presumably has the authority to make promotions as he sees fit. While I'm sure anyone would agree that the promotion of Lee to Commander was unusual, does anybody really think promoting Tigh would have seemed like a good idea to anyone in the fleet? Just curious. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 05:31, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't see the fuss: Col. Tigh himself has stated repeatedly that he does not want a command of his own, and only wants to work as a team with William Adama. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 05:39, 18 February 2006 (EST)

BTW; a note on units: someone mentions that "40 SU" is a long distance away in space for Pegasus. I think that must mean "Stellar Unit", as opposed to our standardized "Astronomical Unit (AU)" (distance from Earth to the sun).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:01, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Pegasus Technology / Technicalities ==
=== Landing Strips & Weaponry ===

Amazing Battle Sequence in this episode. It was nice to finally get to see Pegasus retake her Vipers via both the upper and lower Landing strips.
when I first saw her from this angle http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Pegasus01.jpg I suspected she had 4 landing strips, and now that I have seen them in use, I feel vindicated. What do we know if anything about the 2 Bough Battery's Pegasus was firing at the middle Basestar? The shells seem to be the same size or larger than a viper?--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

:Also, the fact that one of them is inverted confirms that the colonials can maniuplate artificial gravity fields selectively. This was suspected from some shots of the botanical cruiser with a few domes upside down, but this is more explicit and a more extreme difference (the two strips are back to back). --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 17:38, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't think we could really tell what was upside down or not; I got the impressing that they were just flipping the ''camera angle'' to show that Pegasus was flipping around; more detail when we get the DVDs.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 18:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:From what I saw, half of the Vipers rotated to land on the bottom two Pegasus decks. Starbuck was clearly upside down. It can also be seen that Vipers landing on lower deck of the flight pod were rotating to land from the Vipers landing on the upper deck. This is the first time we see that all Viper's land on opposite sides of the same surface. I'm wondering how they are going to explain or show that the gravity is opposite from the rest of the ship.--[[User:Jedivulcan|Jedivulcan]]

::I hope they don't bother. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:10, 18 February 2006 (EST)

They haven't yet explained how they crerate Artificial Gravity onboard the ships yet...I assume its some sort of gravplating...or something...as usual its one of those suspension of disbelief things you just have to kind of accept (for that matter how do they prevent people from flaoting in Zero G in the Raptors?), but the Pegasus clearly has 4 Landing Strips,a nd uses them, there is no need to wait "for the DVD's". For Viper Raptor landings however, they don't relie on Artificial Gravity, they land their skids on magnetic "traps".--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

::See the [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] article for discussion on artificial gravity. I'm betting more on magnetism on this: Why? Watch the [[Miniseries]], when ''Colonial Heavy 798'' first docks on ''Galactica'' for the decomissioning ceremonies. You'll see two spacesuited workers who are ''floating'' while they're working. If this was gravity, these guys would NOT float. Doesn't give us a direct answer, but it eliminates "selective" gravity adjustments. Confirm this with how the Vipers make combat landings; they bounce a lot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:20, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:::Ahh, but we also see the flight pod that has been converted to a museum was in possession of artificial gravity in the decommissioning ceremonies. I'm not adding this to rule out your theory Spencerian, but merely to add that we don't have any clear evidence to say whether they can switch the artificial gravity on or off in the flight pods (the museum could also been an anomaly all its own). --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 00:25, 20 February 2006 (EST)

::::Another thing, the starboard flight deck (the one converted to a museum) still had its artificial gravity active when the Heavy Raider crashed into it in "[[Scattered]]" -- the Raider stays anchored to the deck and Cylons can be seen walking out of it. Since the whole starboard pod was pretty much abandoned, why would they leave the gravity on and thus using unnecessary power? --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 02:02, 20 February 2006 (EST)

: I watched the episode again tonight, and paid extra-careful attention to how the Vipers were recovered. During the sequence, a few Vipers are flying with their dorsal vertical stabilizer and canopy away from our POV (so we see their underside), and a few Vipers (Thrace's among them) are flying with their vertical stabilizer and canopy towards our POV (so we're looking "down" at the top of the pilot's head). If you watch carefully, the former Vipers "disappear" into the upper landing bay, and the camera tracks along with the latter Vipers as they land in the lower landing bay. Because we're so disoriented, we might ''think'' that we're the ones that are hanging upside-down, when, in fact, the Vipers are the ones doing the inversion. Because in Space, there is no up or down, this is entirely feasible, and recovery is just as accomplishable in both orientations, especially when one factors in Spencerian's suggestion of magnetic plates. The only real mystery to us, then, is how they re-orient everything once '''''inside''''' the flight pod's internal compartments. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 01:28, 21 February 2006 (EST)

=== Class Capability ===

I removed the following entry from the article's "Notes" section: 
: [[Mercury class battlestar]]s do not need to retract their flight pods prior to a jump, unlike the [[Galactica type battlestar|Galactica type]]. 
I felt this statement was superfluous and unneeded, since ''Mercury''-class Battlestars '''''cannot''''' retract their flight pods before jumping to FTL; it's not a question of needing to or not. The design of the ''Mercury''-class is closest to the original (original series) model, with fixed flight pods and external hull plating and lines. Why TPTB included retractable/deployable flight pods on ''Galactica's'' class is anyone's guess — it's a neat feature, both visually and stylistically — but I don't think it's necessary to the performance of the FTL drive. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 20:29, 18 February 2006 (EST)
: I could see the retractable flight pods on the ''Galactica'' type used to make a sealed enviroment when closed to create an atmosphere on the deck. I would say it could logically allow a way for people to disembark larger craft like ''Colonial One'' when they dock, however its been proven that craft like that use an airlock gantry way for that purpose. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 20:43, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm restoring this. We may have suspected that Pegasus can't and/or doesn't retract its flight pods, but before this episode, but we didn't ''know''.--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:48, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== "Property"? ==

I'm a little sketchy on current United States legal terminology, but they said that "Under Gemenese law, minors are the "property" of their parents"--->Is the term "property" used by the United States, or any Western nation for that matter? I don't know. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:03, 18 February 2006 (EST)
:Under United States law, no, minors are not property. In practical terms, the situation is a little more complicated. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 18 February 2006 (EST)

::I do not understand. Further, how could she be "property"?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:13, 18 February 2006 (EST)
:::In theory, children are absolutely not "property" under united states law, which grants equal protection not only to all citizens ''of'' the United States, but to all ''persons'' ''within'' the United States. In practice, legal guardians have a wide range of authority over their charges. Of particular relevance to this episode, some jurisdictions require minors to notify their parents prior to an abortion. A friend of mine who sued for emancipation from her parents has told me that in her opinion, there's little practical distinction between the status of an legal minor and "property". I suspect it's a matter of perspective, really. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:40, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== "To Be, or Not... To Be" ==

I removed the following entry from the article's "Notes" section:
: [[Roslin]] references Shakespeare's ''Merchant of Venice'' when she asks [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] if she wants her "pound of flesh". It's unclear if analogues of his work exist in the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Colonies]].

I think that the phrase "pound of flesh" has become quite familiar in modern culture and literary circles, such that it really doesn't warrant significance in citing. It has been used in countless movies and TV episodes without citation (not that I think a phrase can be copyrighted to such an extent), and I haven't seen the writers of ''Law & Order'' state, "Yeah, we intentionally alluded to Shakespeare, and wanted the lawyer to give that impression that he was alluding to Shakespeare when he said it in court". Yes, I'm probably going to an extreme, but really, this is just a case of a scriptwriter putting this phrase into the script, and almost certainly has '''''nothing''''' to do with whether or not Shakespeare is familiar to The Colonies. This isn't the Klingons quoting ''Hamlet''. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 21:45, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm also restoring this. The phrase may have a more general meaning, but it is impossible not to make the association with Shakespeare when hearing it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:52, 19 February 2006 (EST)

: I stand by my original action, more so than the other removal I undertook. It is excessive "over-think" to assume (or, create the assumption) that everything spoken in the dialogue must have explanation in or correlation to "canon" terms. "Pound of flesh" is a term, a phrase, plain and simple... and while its origin ''here'' is attributed to Shakespeare, it ''does not mean'', nor imply, that Shakespeare exists in this storyline, or that Shakespeare was somehow influenced by Colonial writing, or that Shakespeare is, or could be, or should be, any part of this storyline. This storyline and Shakespearean writing are completely exclusive of each other, with the exception being, perhaps, that writers here may take dramatic or stylistic cues from Shakespeare (or any other classes of writers). Hey, they're only Human too. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 02:06, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Look, in general, I agree with you that it's not desirable to read too much into things - no, the freighter "greenleaf" is not a Legolas reference, for example. This, however, is very clear. I am going to restore it again for now, and I would like you to leave it be until at least a few others weigh in. At that point, I will be happy to abide by consensus. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 19 February 2006 (EST)

I stand with Farago. Utterly. Two to one, motion stands.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:01, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Please remember that, when content is disputed due to interpretation ([[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|as opposed to sources]]), our policy is to generally leave the item ''within the article'' and to work here on Talk (as done) to gain consensus before leaving the item in permanently. If consensus cannot be reached, one of the [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Special%3AListusers&group=sysop&username= Administrators] here (or other contributor) can call for a vote. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:17, 19 February 2006 (EST)

: Perhaps a compromise can be reached. I adjusted the statement slightly to be more ambiguous. I'm not against the mention of a snippet or insight like this — but, I'm completely opposed to extending an insight into speculation, especially when it involves linking to or placement in the ''canon'' storyline. The contributor who first placed that statement (Alphaboi867) hasn't "shown up" to defend it, and I strongly feel that the original phrasing of it is ungrounded speculation that is linking Shakespeare to the storyline, where no such link has been indicated by TPTB to exist. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:03, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:''Hawke suggests:''
The script for [[Laura Roslin]] references Shakespeare's ''Merchant of Venice'', when she asks [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] if she wants her "pound of flesh". It's unclear as to if the writers are somehow placing Shakespeare's work into the story of [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Colonies]], or if this is just a random "use of phrase" by an inspired scriptwriter.

:This seems verbose. Just stating that she's quoting shakespeare shouldn't imply any position on whether or not he exists in the BSG universe. How about simply stating this in notes:
::[[Laura Roslin]] quotes Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" when she tells [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] that she's gotten her "pound of flesh".
:And, if we feel the need to discuss the implication of this quotation, doing so under Analysis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:10, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:: I would be agreeable to this, so long as it is prefaced with "The script (or dialogue) for [[Laura Roslin]]... (rest of your statement)". I know I'm dicing onions, but I think it's ''crucial'' that there is no implication that Shakespeare exists in The Colonies ''unless'' or ''until'' it is substantiated further. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:19, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:::"Writer Jeff Vlaming references Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" when he has [[Laura Roslin]] tell [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]], "you have your pound of flesh."? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:25, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:::: That works fine, in my opinion. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:28, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Anachronism of using Shakespearian refrences aside for a moment...did anyone else pick up on the distinctive Literal interpretation of Rosalyn's usage of "Pound of Flesh" during this specific conversation? The conversation centers around a teenaged girl who aborted her pregnancy 4 months into the gestation...so the phrase here can be taken with a double meaning...somewhat tastlessly really. (at 4 months the average human fetus weighs approx 300 grams, or a tad shy of a full pound). Another queston beyond Refrencing common Anglo expresions would be what about units of Measurement...why would the 12 Colonies use a standard English Pound as a unit of mass/weight?...--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

== Councillor -> Delegate ==
I changed the instances of Councillor to Delegate per [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions#Character_Titles|Article 3 Section 1 of the Standards and Conventions]]. If events occur such that we need to reevaluate the standard title for members of the Quorum, we should probably take it over to the talk at S&C (so that it will be applied everywhere). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:46, 18 February 2006 (EST)

==How much is too much?==

I know this was brought up in another episode of the season, in that we should be mindful of how much information is provided for each episode. For the information that's being provided in summary, how much should we include? Some veteran input would be greatly appreciated. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 15:32, 19 February 2006 (EST)
:I agree that this needs concision badly, and separation between the "A" and "B" plots. Try to stick to the rough outlines of the plot, and save salient details for Notes. Be bold. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:49, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Well I edited a fair bit, taking out some extra explanations. I think we have to look at these summaries as more of a sports recap the day after the game rather then a play-by-play of the whole episode. I think more time should be spent on individual pages (Eg. Lee Adama) rather then explanation what happens to him in detail in the episode. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 19:33, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::: Oh and my apologies to Peter Farago for removing his notable dialogue stuff, had an older copied and pasted version which overwrote your stuff, D'oh!! --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 19:36, 19 February 2006 (EST)
:::No. Wrong. It is more convenient/efficient to describe/question/analyze events in an episode, within that episode's own page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:11, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::Yeah, I think his point is that it's only worth doing if the points are interesting. This is not a transcript, we don't need a blow-by-blow of each quivering facial expression that plays out on Bamber and Sakhoff's faces in any given scene. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:19, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::: Aye, exactly. Thanks for clarifying! Also, it might be easier to just throw it on the episode page, but in the end it has to be done on the character/object/whatever page so why not spend more time putting there instead. (Eg. Apollo getting shot can be mentioned on the episode, but it will have to go on Apollo's page anyway, so no point in being overly descriptive. --22:08, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::::Thank you everyone for the comments. It was really nice to see comments from season vets (Farago) as well as some new faces to the Wiki. The recent summary changes look good, and it it's good to touch on what's consider vague versus verbose through discussions such as this. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 00:55, 20 February 2006 (EST)

==Casualties==

Rexpop writes:
:There may be two further explanations for this (1) that the board hadn't been updated to reflect the damage on the ''Pegasus'' , only the pilots lost. (2) A large number of the ''Galactica'' casualties occurred during the venting of the fire and was largely due to the conflicting damage control orders given by Kelly, Tyrol and Tigh rather than the actual impact of the missile.

I don't think either of these points bears up to scrutiny. As to the first, I'm willing to wait until next friday, but I can almost promise you that the count won't be pushed any lower - we thought something similar after the surprisingly low casualty count between "Valley of Darkness" and "Fragged", but no other deaths were added on later.

As for the second point, that's simply not the case - Tigh knew that if he waited for the repair crews to evacuate, the fuel lines would blow, and Adama not only backed up his decision but said that he'd have made the same one in his place. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:25, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:It would have been amusing if they did blow and the series ended right there. I dunno what we'd be watching in its place, but there's probably plenty of ideas floating around. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:11, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm not disputing whether or not Tigh's decision was or wasn't the correct one. I was making the point that the bulk of the Galactica's casualties (around 80 or so) came from the decision to vent the atmosphere in those sections while the DC teams (that had moved into the section to deal with the fire) were evacuating rather than from the impact of the missile. I've edited the comment to remove the sentence about the DC effort to try and to clear up the point. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 23:12, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Interesting point. We do hear that all the breathing gear was used up in firefighting ops, which the dead deck crew are criticized for neglecting in the mini. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:54, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== what was Baltar working on? ==

When the episode cuts to Laura Rosalyn consulting with Gaius Baltar in his labratory over the population projections for the fleet, Baltar is working on some sort of tissue sample. I am very curious as to what he was doing, and what/whom the tissue sample was taken from?

Talk:The Captain's Hand/Archive 1

2006-02-21T21:20:17Z

Strato: /* "To Be, or Not... To Be" */

==Episode Impressions==

Well I think that was a damn good episode, a good improvement over some of the previous episodes. Tricky for some article editing but overall I know you guys will do a great job on the page. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:02, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:Not bad at all. [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 23:05, 17 February 2006 (EST)

::I agree. Some tense moments, and the Baltar announcement kinda threw me for a second, but overall a refresing change of pace. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)

::Great Episode I thought. The abortion debate was an fascinating piece of art imitating life in my opinion. It will be interesting to see how this pans out as the show continues. --[[User:Simmons|Simmons]] 10:55, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:: With the last few episodes, I was becoming increasingly disillusioned with the apparently magical powers of RDM and his writing team. This episode is more like what I (and, I think, we all) have come to expect from Galactica. [[User:Shred|Shred]] 13:47, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== Not ANOTHER Commander! ==

This episode was topnotch, yes. But this leaves us wikipedians with a bit of a problem. Enter "Commander Adama" and you get William Adama. We'll need a disambig for this new change. Betting that Lee's promotion is temporary, of course. And, for me at least, there's the matter of the new commander living long enough--Pegasus goes through commanders now like I go through a bag of cookies. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:08, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:Perhaps maybe the Pegasus will be around longer than we thought? [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 23:10, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::Or maybe we'll have another Adama cliffhanger, this time with Lee... -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::Methinks those nuke hits will come back to haunt them (especially with the nuke Baltar took coming into play) and Adama will go for either, a) another space walk when the Pegasus goes boom or b) He will be aboard Galactica laughing at Tigh for still being a Colonel. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Personally, as a US Navy vet, I think this was a huge breach in protocol. Granted, I'm loving the show and plotwise it's a good move, the reality of it is that if anything, Tigh would have been promoted to Commander (and probably should have been after the ''Pegasus'' lost its two seniormost officers) and '''perhaps''' Lee promoted to Colonel as the XO. Obviously, there was the huge flareup from when Tigh had command of the fleet, but even still, as XO of ''Galactica'', it should have went to him.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:19, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:I agree with you, and it might make for some good Tigh material later on, with him and Ellen being pissed off for being passed over. But I think because of the reactions he got within the fleet, there would be more trouble then its worth. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::Pretty much what I was thinking as well, especially since ADM Adama and Tigh go way back, so he'll probably see this as a major snub. So again, as a plot issue, I think it works. But I think the whole thing probably could have been handled a bit more realistically. But that's just me. ^_^;;;--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:25, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::Hey, all! New here. And same thoughts here, but not just from Tigh, but maybe from the fleet. Kara didn't seem to care one way or another (or, at least, didn't voice it), but I think some might be extremely angry that Lee went from Major to Commander in a month. [[User:Michael|Michael]] 23:29, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::::As much as it was a breach in protocol, [[Saul_Tigh|Col. Tigh]] might not be miffed as bad as everyone thinks. Recall from [[Scattered]], that he really wasn't interested in "the big chair". I'm thinking that Ellen may have the larger issue of the two. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:41, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::::True, but there is still the matter of OPLANs, NAVREGs (or whatever serves for the fleet). It was as much rules and regulations - some of the stuff that ADM Adama is supposed to adhere to, especially during wartime - as Tigh's preferences. Granted, I'm probably reading a bit much of real-world influences into this, and I understand that they did it for the plot, but again, I really expect some backlash to happen, both on-screen and somewhat amongst the really, really nitpicky fans. Like me. ^_- --'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:54, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:::::The passing over of Colonel Tigh for the post of ''Pegasus'' Commander needs to be addressed at a later time I believe. Either he was offered the position and passed, his attitude to receiving a command as stated in "Scattered" was well known to Admiral Adama and he knew the offer of promotion would be rejected or Admiral Adama decided he needed him where he was...Hopefully this will be addressed in a later episode. A throwaway line from Admiral Adama to Colonel Tigh such as "Im glad you stayed" or "You know it was yours if you wanted it" would wrap it up and end this speculation! :)--[[User:Simmons|Simmons]] 10:03, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Was Apollo promoted to Commander or simply given command of the Pegasus and stayed at the rank of Major ?. After all it is possible to be the Captain (and referred to as the Captain) of a ship without holding the rank of Captain. Maybe the same thing holds for the Commander designation. Although being given the pips does confuse things but it does seem strange that he jumped almost two command ranks in one go. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 02:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

: Just some thoughts. By its very nature the command structure of the Fleet must be looser than it would be in "normal" circumstances. Seniority has become less important than fitting individuals to function. Tigh has shown himself to be in some ways a superior XO, one upon whom Adama depends. Also, I would maintain that Tigh depends no less upon Bill Adama in order to function. But I wonder if any other "cross-pollenization" of battlestar crews might be wise. [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 11:57, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Apollo was indeed promoted to the rank of Commander Rexpop. Personally, since I haven't read the Articles of Colonial Field Promotions...or whatever...I can't say that Lee's promotion was in breach of any protocol...maybe IRL it would be...but in the RDM universe, who knows.
Personally I think that the promotion to Commander reflects Apollos actions. He assumed command of the Pegasus when she was allready faceing 3 Basestars, with potentially up to 2,400 Raiders, and the Pegasus allready heavily damaged...and he was able to not only pull it out of the fire and escape, but heavily damaged/crippled one Basestar in the process. I'd say that he deserves the promotion to Commander. --[[User:Strato|Strato]]

On further thought it makes sense that Lee was probably the only viable candidate in fleet. The reasoning is as follows:

First up lets identify the potential candidates that we know about on Galactica. After the attack the command staff on Galactica was Adama, Colonel Tigh, Captain Kelly, Major Cottle and Lee. There are no other senior officers that we know about and given that Captain Kelly was second officer its unlikely there were others.

On Pegasus things are a little more vague. We know that Fisk was a Colonel and that Garner was not a command officer but the chief engineer so its likely that he held at least the rank of Major. With both officers gone it is likely the highest command officer left on Pegasus was probably no higher than the rank of Major. And given that Pegasus was in for a refit at the time of the attack it was likely that like Galactica the ship was light on senior officers.

So at the end we are left with four candidates that we the audience knows about. Tigh, Lee, Cottle and Kelly. Tigh has made it clear that he doesn't want command and Adama would likely pass him over due to his personal issues with the bottle. Cottle would probably not be considered due to not being a command officer and the lack of doctors in the fleet.

Kelly is a good candidate and is probably on a par with Lee, but where Lee wins out over Kelly is that Kelly doesn't have experience in commanding a Battlestar, only as an XO. Admittedly Lee only has one engagement under his belt, but he was thrown into the fire and came out singed but intact. Kelly doesn't have that so that puts Lee ahead. So under the circumstances (and the limited pool to draw on) Lee is pretty much is the best candidate that we know about for the job.

Now the only question that I have is why hasn't Kelly been made first officer of the Pegasus ?. It would seem that he would be a natural choice given that it was strongly hinted in the mini-series that he was in line for a promotion to a first officer position after his tour of duty was over. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 14:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:Don't forget that Cain had already had her first XO executed, so Col. Fisk had probably been promoted from a lower rank already. As for Kelly vs. Lee Adama, it's not entirely clear which of them have seniority. Lee was under arrest when Kelly was acting as Tigh's XO. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

==Survivor Count==
The survivor count went down by six even though we saw seven deaths in the last episode. This could be explained by the well established fact that cylon deaths do not result in a dropping of the count. It has long been speculated that [[Billy|Billy]] is/was a cylon. If this is true it would explain the loss of only six from the count. That said, it is also possible, even probable that there was a birth. In the podcast for [[Sacrifice|Sacrifice]] it is said that Billy was killed off just because the actor portraying him wished to pursue other projects. Thoughts?--[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 02:30, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:No, for two reasons: One, we actually saw the White Board of Death to confirm numbers, Two: occasionally there are births in the fleet which make the number go up slightly. Although this could never account for the sudden, unexplained gain of 50 people at a time or something, it does go to explain why sometimes there are episodes where a lot of people die, but the survivor count doesn't drop that much.
--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

::I don't understand what you're saying. Im not disputing the numbers, im giving a possible explination for why the number went down by only six when we see seven people (pehaps one of them a cylon) dying in the previous episode. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 03:37, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Seven people die on screen. 2 more die off screen. 3 babies are born off screen. We don't hear about these second two events, but they still ''happen'', and when we see the renewed survivor count, it's a ''Net'' loss of six, and so forth. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Whether Billy is a Cylon is not an issue for the Survivor Count (fleet population). President Roslin wouldn't yet be aware, so it would not be a factor in the population count, and therefore to mention the speculation about Billy wasn't really relevant. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 04:15, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Yeah thats a good point that the president wouldnt know, youre right. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 21:38, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Tigh and Seniority ==

In the questions, I wonder if the reference to Tigh's "seniority" is even relevent. This isn't a situation analogous to the time (now-Admiral) Adama was shot because in that case, Tigh was the most senior officer PERIOD, and here now Tigh is, of course, not. Adama, as the ranking flag officer (Admiral, if not Commander, and up), presumably has the authority to make promotions as he sees fit. While I'm sure anyone would agree that the promotion of Lee to Commander was unusual, does anybody really think promoting Tigh would have seemed like a good idea to anyone in the fleet? Just curious. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 05:31, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't see the fuss: Col. Tigh himself has stated repeatedly that he does not want a command of his own, and only wants to work as a team with William Adama. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 05:39, 18 February 2006 (EST)

BTW; a note on units: someone mentions that "40 SU" is a long distance away in space for Pegasus. I think that must mean "Stellar Unit", as opposed to our standardized "Astronomical Unit (AU)" (distance from Earth to the sun).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:01, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Pegasus Technology / Technicalities ==
=== Landing Strips & Weaponry ===

Amazing Battle Sequence in this episode. It was nice to finally get to see Pegasus retake her Vipers via both the upper and lower Landing strips.
when I first saw her from this angle http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Pegasus01.jpg I suspected she had 4 landing strips, and now that I have seen them in use, I feel vindicated. What do we know if anything about the 2 Bough Battery's Pegasus was firing at the middle Basestar? The shells seem to be the same size or larger than a viper?--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

:Also, the fact that one of them is inverted confirms that the colonials can maniuplate artificial gravity fields selectively. This was suspected from some shots of the botanical cruiser with a few domes upside down, but this is more explicit and a more extreme difference (the two strips are back to back). --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 17:38, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't think we could really tell what was upside down or not; I got the impressing that they were just flipping the ''camera angle'' to show that Pegasus was flipping around; more detail when we get the DVDs.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 18:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:From what I saw, half of the Vipers rotated to land on the bottom two Pegasus decks. Starbuck was clearly upside down. It can also be seen that Vipers landing on lower deck of the flight pod were rotating to land from the Vipers landing on the upper deck. This is the first time we see that all Viper's land on opposite sides of the same surface. I'm wondering how they are going to explain or show that the gravity is opposite from the rest of the ship.--[[User:Jedivulcan|Jedivulcan]]

::I hope they don't bother. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:10, 18 February 2006 (EST)

They haven't yet explained how they crerate Artificial Gravity onboard the ships yet...I assume its some sort of gravplating...or something...as usual its one of those suspension of disbelief things you just have to kind of accept (for that matter how do they prevent people from flaoting in Zero G in the Raptors?), but the Pegasus clearly has 4 Landing Strips,a nd uses them, there is no need to wait "for the DVD's". For Viper Raptor landings however, they don't relie on Artificial Gravity, they land their skids on magnetic "traps".--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

::See the [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] article for discussion on artificial gravity. I'm betting more on magnetism on this: Why? Watch the [[Miniseries]], when ''Colonial Heavy 798'' first docks on ''Galactica'' for the decomissioning ceremonies. You'll see two spacesuited workers who are ''floating'' while they're working. If this was gravity, these guys would NOT float. Doesn't give us a direct answer, but it eliminates "selective" gravity adjustments. Confirm this with how the Vipers make combat landings; they bounce a lot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:20, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:::Ahh, but we also see the flight pod that has been converted to a museum was in possession of artificial gravity in the decommissioning ceremonies. I'm not adding this to rule out your theory Spencerian, but merely to add that we don't have any clear evidence to say whether they can switch the artificial gravity on or off in the flight pods (the museum could also been an anomaly all its own). --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 00:25, 20 February 2006 (EST)

::::Another thing, the starboard flight deck (the one converted to a museum) still had its artificial gravity active when the Heavy Raider crashed into it in "[[Scattered]]" -- the Raider stays anchored to the deck and Cylons can be seen walking out of it. Since the whole starboard pod was pretty much abandoned, why would they leave the gravity on and thus using unnecessary power? --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 02:02, 20 February 2006 (EST)

: I watched the episode again tonight, and paid extra-careful attention to how the Vipers were recovered. During the sequence, a few Vipers are flying with their dorsal vertical stabilizer and canopy away from our POV (so we see their underside), and a few Vipers (Thrace's among them) are flying with their vertical stabilizer and canopy towards our POV (so we're looking "down" at the top of the pilot's head). If you watch carefully, the former Vipers "disappear" into the upper landing bay, and the camera tracks along with the latter Vipers as they land in the lower landing bay. Because we're so disoriented, we might ''think'' that we're the ones that are hanging upside-down, when, in fact, the Vipers are the ones doing the inversion. Because in Space, there is no up or down, this is entirely feasible, and recovery is just as accomplishable in both orientations, especially when one factors in Spencerian's suggestion of magnetic plates. The only real mystery to us, then, is how they re-orient everything once '''''inside''''' the flight pod's internal compartments. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 01:28, 21 February 2006 (EST)

=== Class Capability ===

I removed the following entry from the article's "Notes" section: 
: [[Mercury class battlestar]]s do not need to retract their flight pods prior to a jump, unlike the [[Galactica type battlestar|Galactica type]]. 
I felt this statement was superfluous and unneeded, since ''Mercury''-class Battlestars '''''cannot''''' retract their flight pods before jumping to FTL; it's not a question of needing to or not. The design of the ''Mercury''-class is closest to the original (original series) model, with fixed flight pods and external hull plating and lines. Why TPTB included retractable/deployable flight pods on ''Galactica's'' class is anyone's guess — it's a neat feature, both visually and stylistically — but I don't think it's necessary to the performance of the FTL drive. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 20:29, 18 February 2006 (EST)
: I could see the retractable flight pods on the ''Galactica'' type used to make a sealed enviroment when closed to create an atmosphere on the deck. I would say it could logically allow a way for people to disembark larger craft like ''Colonial One'' when they dock, however its been proven that craft like that use an airlock gantry way for that purpose. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 20:43, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm restoring this. We may have suspected that Pegasus can't and/or doesn't retract its flight pods, but before this episode, but we didn't ''know''.--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:48, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== "Property"? ==

I'm a little sketchy on current United States legal terminology, but they said that "Under Gemenese law, minors are the "property" of their parents"--->Is the term "property" used by the United States, or any Western nation for that matter? I don't know. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:03, 18 February 2006 (EST)
:Under United States law, no, minors are not property. In practical terms, the situation is a little more complicated. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 18 February 2006 (EST)

::I do not understand. Further, how could she be "property"?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:13, 18 February 2006 (EST)
:::In theory, children are absolutely not "property" under united states law, which grants equal protection not only to all citizens ''of'' the United States, but to all ''persons'' ''within'' the United States. In practice, legal guardians have a wide range of authority over their charges. Of particular relevance to this episode, some jurisdictions require minors to notify their parents prior to an abortion. A friend of mine who sued for emancipation from her parents has told me that in her opinion, there's little practical distinction between the status of an legal minor and "property". I suspect it's a matter of perspective, really. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:40, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== "To Be, or Not... To Be" ==

I removed the following entry from the article's "Notes" section:
: [[Roslin]] references Shakespeare's ''Merchant of Venice'' when she asks [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] if she wants her "pound of flesh". It's unclear if analogues of his work exist in the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Colonies]].

I think that the phrase "pound of flesh" has become quite familiar in modern culture and literary circles, such that it really doesn't warrant significance in citing. It has been used in countless movies and TV episodes without citation (not that I think a phrase can be copyrighted to such an extent), and I haven't seen the writers of ''Law & Order'' state, "Yeah, we intentionally alluded to Shakespeare, and wanted the lawyer to give that impression that he was alluding to Shakespeare when he said it in court". Yes, I'm probably going to an extreme, but really, this is just a case of a scriptwriter putting this phrase into the script, and almost certainly has '''''nothing''''' to do with whether or not Shakespeare is familiar to The Colonies. This isn't the Klingons quoting ''Hamlet''. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 21:45, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm also restoring this. The phrase may have a more general meaning, but it is impossible not to make the association with Shakespeare when hearing it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:52, 19 February 2006 (EST)

: I stand by my original action, more so than the other removal I undertook. It is excessive "over-think" to assume (or, create the assumption) that everything spoken in the dialogue must have explanation in or correlation to "canon" terms. "Pound of flesh" is a term, a phrase, plain and simple... and while its origin ''here'' is attributed to Shakespeare, it ''does not mean'', nor imply, that Shakespeare exists in this storyline, or that Shakespeare was somehow influenced by Colonial writing, or that Shakespeare is, or could be, or should be, any part of this storyline. This storyline and Shakespearean writing are completely exclusive of each other, with the exception being, perhaps, that writers here may take dramatic or stylistic cues from Shakespeare (or any other classes of writers). Hey, they're only Human too. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 02:06, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Look, in general, I agree with you that it's not desirable to read too much into things - no, the freighter "greenleaf" is not a Legolas reference, for example. This, however, is very clear. I am going to restore it again for now, and I would like you to leave it be until at least a few others weigh in. At that point, I will be happy to abide by consensus. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 19 February 2006 (EST)

I stand with Farago. Utterly. Two to one, motion stands.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:01, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Please remember that, when content is disputed due to interpretation ([[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|as opposed to sources]]), our policy is to generally leave the item ''within the article'' and to work here on Talk (as done) to gain consensus before leaving the item in permanently. If consensus cannot be reached, one of the [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Special%3AListusers&group=sysop&username= Administrators] here (or other contributor) can call for a vote. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:17, 19 February 2006 (EST)

: Perhaps a compromise can be reached. I adjusted the statement slightly to be more ambiguous. I'm not against the mention of a snippet or insight like this — but, I'm completely opposed to extending an insight into speculation, especially when it involves linking to or placement in the ''canon'' storyline. The contributor who first placed that statement (Alphaboi867) hasn't "shown up" to defend it, and I strongly feel that the original phrasing of it is ungrounded speculation that is linking Shakespeare to the storyline, where no such link has been indicated by TPTB to exist. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:03, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:''Hawke suggests:''
The script for [[Laura Roslin]] references Shakespeare's ''Merchant of Venice'', when she asks [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] if she wants her "pound of flesh". It's unclear as to if the writers are somehow placing Shakespeare's work into the story of [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Colonies]], or if this is just a random "use of phrase" by an inspired scriptwriter.

:This seems verbose. Just stating that she's quoting shakespeare shouldn't imply any position on whether or not he exists in the BSG universe. How about simply stating this in notes:
::[[Laura Roslin]] quotes Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" when she tells [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]] that she's gotten her "pound of flesh".
:And, if we feel the need to discuss the implication of this quotation, doing so under Analysis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:10, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:: I would be agreeable to this, so long as it is prefaced with "The script (or dialogue) for [[Laura Roslin]]... (rest of your statement)". I know I'm dicing onions, but I think it's ''crucial'' that there is no implication that Shakespeare exists in The Colonies ''unless'' or ''until'' it is substantiated further. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:19, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:::"Writer Jeff Vlaming references Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" when he has [[Laura Roslin]] tell [[Quorum of Twelve|Delegate]] [[Sarah Porter]], "you have your pound of flesh."? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:25, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:::: That works fine, in my opinion. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 15:28, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Anachronism of using Shakespearian refrences aside for a moment...did anyone else pick up on the distinctive Literal interpretation of Rosalyn's usage of "Pound of Flesh" during this specific conversation? The conversation centers around a teenaged girl who aborted her pregnancy 4 months into the gestation...so the phrase here can be taken with a double meaning...somewhat tastlessly really. (at 4 months the average human fetus weighs approx 300 grams, or a tad shy of a full pound). Another queston beyond Refrencing common Anglo expresions would be what about units of Measurement...why would the 12 Colonies use a standard English Pound as a unit of mass/weight?...--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

== Councillor -> Delegate ==
I changed the instances of Councillor to Delegate per [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions#Character_Titles|Article 3 Section 1 of the Standards and Conventions]]. If events occur such that we need to reevaluate the standard title for members of the Quorum, we should probably take it over to the talk at S&C (so that it will be applied everywhere). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:46, 18 February 2006 (EST)

==How much is too much?==

I know this was brought up in another episode of the season, in that we should be mindful of how much information is provided for each episode. For the information that's being provided in summary, how much should we include? Some veteran input would be greatly appreciated. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 15:32, 19 February 2006 (EST)
:I agree that this needs concision badly, and separation between the "A" and "B" plots. Try to stick to the rough outlines of the plot, and save salient details for Notes. Be bold. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:49, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Well I edited a fair bit, taking out some extra explanations. I think we have to look at these summaries as more of a sports recap the day after the game rather then a play-by-play of the whole episode. I think more time should be spent on individual pages (Eg. Lee Adama) rather then explanation what happens to him in detail in the episode. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 19:33, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::: Oh and my apologies to Peter Farago for removing his notable dialogue stuff, had an older copied and pasted version which overwrote your stuff, D'oh!! --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 19:36, 19 February 2006 (EST)
:::No. Wrong. It is more convenient/efficient to describe/question/analyze events in an episode, within that episode's own page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:11, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::Yeah, I think his point is that it's only worth doing if the points are interesting. This is not a transcript, we don't need a blow-by-blow of each quivering facial expression that plays out on Bamber and Sakhoff's faces in any given scene. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:19, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::: Aye, exactly. Thanks for clarifying! Also, it might be easier to just throw it on the episode page, but in the end it has to be done on the character/object/whatever page so why not spend more time putting there instead. (Eg. Apollo getting shot can be mentioned on the episode, but it will have to go on Apollo's page anyway, so no point in being overly descriptive. --22:08, 19 February 2006 (EST)
::::::Thank you everyone for the comments. It was really nice to see comments from season vets (Farago) as well as some new faces to the Wiki. The recent summary changes look good, and it it's good to touch on what's consider vague versus verbose through discussions such as this. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 00:55, 20 February 2006 (EST)

==Casualties==

Rexpop writes:
:There may be two further explanations for this (1) that the board hadn't been updated to reflect the damage on the ''Pegasus'' , only the pilots lost. (2) A large number of the ''Galactica'' casualties occurred during the venting of the fire and was largely due to the conflicting damage control orders given by Kelly, Tyrol and Tigh rather than the actual impact of the missile.

I don't think either of these points bears up to scrutiny. As to the first, I'm willing to wait until next friday, but I can almost promise you that the count won't be pushed any lower - we thought something similar after the surprisingly low casualty count between "Valley of Darkness" and "Fragged", but no other deaths were added on later.

As for the second point, that's simply not the case - Tigh knew that if he waited for the repair crews to evacuate, the fuel lines would blow, and Adama not only backed up his decision but said that he'd have made the same one in his place. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:25, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:It would have been amusing if they did blow and the series ended right there. I dunno what we'd be watching in its place, but there's probably plenty of ideas floating around. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:11, 19 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm not disputing whether or not Tigh's decision was or wasn't the correct one. I was making the point that the bulk of the Galactica's casualties (around 80 or so) came from the decision to vent the atmosphere in those sections while the DC teams (that had moved into the section to deal with the fire) were evacuating rather than from the impact of the missile. I've edited the comment to remove the sentence about the DC effort to try and to clear up the point. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 23:12, 19 February 2006 (EST)

::Interesting point. We do hear that all the breathing gear was used up in firefighting ops, which the dead deck crew are criticized for neglecting in the mini. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:54, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Talk:The Captain's Hand/Archive 1

2006-02-19T00:49:05Z

Strato: /* Pegasus Landing Strips & Weaponry */

Talk:The Captain's Hand/Archive 1

2006-02-18T17:48:37Z

Strato: /* Not ANOTHER Commander! */

Talk:The Captain's Hand/Archive 1

2006-02-18T17:39:10Z

Strato: Pegasus Landing Strips & Weaponry

Talk:Pegasus (TRS)/Archive 1

2006-02-18T17:30:26Z

Strato: /* Four Landing Strips? */

Holy frak!!! Look at the SIZE of that thing! I love the look of this advanced battlestar, and hope we get a few more good looks at her and how good a fighter it is--but not against Adama, please. Pictures, pictures, pictures needed, particularly interior shots as well. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

: I think we should reference that it bears a similar shape of the original Galactica. [[User:QX100|QX100]] 16:32, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

::Don't all Battlestars? Or do you mean more similar than the new ''Galactica'' herself? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:40, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

:::What I Meant was that the pegasus and all ships in the Mercury-class have the same bulky resemblence of the Battlestars from the original series. [[User:QX100|QX100]] 22:48, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

::::Well, if you look at the end portion in that one pic, you can see the 2 hull-mounted engines which is the original structure of the battlestar in the original series and it seems like the 4 other sublight engines are "attached" to it. [[User:Blacklight|Blacklight]]
== Fleet unit ==

I couldn't make it out - I believe the Pegasus was assigned to the [[62nd Battlestar Group]], but I can't be sure. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 13:34, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

== Pegasus Battle Group ==

It belonged to BSG 62

[[Image:Cain_Pegasus_emblem_BSG_63.jpg]]

:That's what I pointed out on the 87th BSG page before it got deleted. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 07:56, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

::That's what it looks like to me as well. I think that we should move the BSG 75 page to just "BSG" and note it there, though, not on its own page. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:56, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

Its BSG 62...not BSG63.--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

== the CNP ==

Did pegasus have it and when do you think they got rid of it?
--[[User:Alex mcpherson|Alex mcpherson]] 13:02, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

Ron Moore's podcast mentions that in a cut scene, Cain explains that their computer systems were offline for the refit. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:50, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

: Actually, that scene was in the aired show when Adama, Roslin, and Cain sat down over drinks. Cain indicated they the ship jumped since, without the other computers, they were defenseless--the only thing online, apparently, were the navigation and/or FTL computers. Does this mean that Pegasus never had the CNP? They probably did. I bet they learned quickly and retrofit their ships immediately as they likely got the same information about the fleet's failure rates over wireless as did Galactica. It would have been impossible for Pegasus to fight Cylons otherwise. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:22, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

::The CNP was quite new at the time of the mini-series. Maybe it was scheduled to be installed during the refit. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 28 September 2005 (EDT)
::: Thats all i needed to know. so ''Mercury''-class dont have it for those that hadnt been refitted yet. that means there could be other battlestars out there..
::::This is only speculation on my part. Spencerian's explanation is also plausible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:37, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

==Gina's Origin==

Gina's origin was never stated in the episode. I know that this was widely speculated on spoiler sites prior to the episode, but that doesn't count for much. Maybe we'll learn more about her later. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:59, 1 October 2005 (EDT)

:In the Gina section of wiki states and I quote, "'''Gina is a Humano-Cylon who was "rescued" by the Pegasus, claiming to be a survivng civilian dock worker'''. After befriending the crew, she betrayed them to the Cylons, whom summarily boarded the Pegasus and terminated 800 of her crew. " That was why I put that in. --[[User:Blacklight|Blacklight]]

::Believe it or not, we're not actually a very reliable source. I'll fix that up. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:45, 1 October 2005 (EDT)

==Pegasus Fleet==

Should we post information on Pegasus's fleet in the Pegasus article? I know we don't know very much so far, except that there were 15 ships and one of them was the Scylla, but it stands to reason that we'll probably learn about some of the other ships as the new season progresses and if we get to meet other civilian crew members of Pegasus.--Ltcrashdown 01:51, 7 January 2006 (EST)

:Best place, as I see it. Probably less confusing here than [[The Fleet (RDM)|The Fleet]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:59, 7 January 2006 (EST)

::I definately agree on that front. The 15 ships certainly won't be showing up to join the fleet so there's no reason to include them there. I'll add the info we already know about the ships (aside from the mutiny stuff which we can add later).--Ltcrashdown 02:12, 7 January 2006 (EST)

In the process of adding info on the Pegasus fleet, Ricimer added his own details. Rather than rudely delete his comments, I'm just going to post what I wrote here, sot hat it doesn't go to waste. I'll probably incorporate some of what I wrote into the current article later, but for now I'd like to leave it here. Hope that's not a problem.--Ltcrashdown 02:24, 7 January 2006 (EST)

Shortly after the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], Pegasus picked up 15 civilian ships which Admiral Cain sought to exploit for military use. Some of the passengers were drafted into ther Pegasus's crew, while just about any useful equipment and parts were stripped from the craft.

The ships included:
:The [[Scylla]] - civilian transport
:14 other ships of unknown design

An interesting note about the ships of Pegasus's short-lived fleet was that several of them had weapons which were later removed on Admiral Cain's orders.

Also, the FTL drives on the ships were removed, but for unknown use (it can be assumed that the FTL drives would probably be too small for Pegasus and too big for Vipers/Raptors, so maybe they were used for parts in the event that the FTL of the Pegasus or a Raptor might break down, Note that this is pure speculation).

== Pegasus Images ==
There's a ton of close up Pegasus shots in the file list that aren't being used. Flyby's, zoomins on various components, etc. Should we use some of them here (or elsewhere)? I'm on something of a campaign to clean up (delete) pics that aren't being used (due to [http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewtopic&gid=77846&tid=75618 this discussion]), and this was the biggest pattern I could find. If they're worth keeping around, I won't object, but it seems like if they were worth using they would have been linked to (especially since some of them have been around since September).--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:29, 16 January 2006 (EST)

:It might be sensible to list them by subject and see if any of them can be used in picture-wanting articles before we trash them all. Worth the effort? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:24, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::Sure. I'll work on an [[User:Steelviper/IslandofMisfitImages/|"Island of Misfit Images"]] to see if we can't find a home for them. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:28, 17 January 2006 (EST)

==Vipers==
What about vipers? What model do they have? --[[User:PhoenixHacker|PhoenixHacker]] 20:47, 16 January 2006 (EST)
: Mark IVs. As did a majority of the Colonial Fleet. (The only reason Galactica has any Mark IIs is because they were museum displays.) -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:55, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::That's Mark VII. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:57, 16 January 2006 (EST)

== Pegasus Registry Number ==

I am nearly positive that Pegasus' registry number is BS-62, however, I will present my evidence before (and if) I make an edit to the article.

A. Pictures:
[[Image:Pegasus_1.JPG|thumb|left]]
[[Image:TheEnemysGateIsDown3.jpg|thumb|left]]

B. Reasoning: We know that Galactica's registry number is BS-75. Galactica was also a member of BSG-75. I think that its safe to say that Battlestar Groups are numbered after the registry of their Battlestar, or else this is a pretty big coincidence. Pegasus' was a member of BSG-62, and the registry in those pictures looks like BS-62.

Thats why I made the orignal edit to the article. If we still think this isn't enough evidence, I won't edit it again. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 17:58, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:But your reasoning is utterly irrelevant. Ron D. Moore has stated, in his blog, that it is not a registry number but the number of their Battlestar Group. The number written on their hulls and ship emblem on their seals and patches seen since the miniseries say "BSG 75". They just like to display their Group number instead of registry; not exactly like Earth military now, etc. I'm sorry, but none of us will probably say this is good evidence; you haven't been here for a while BMS, but this has all be gone over a lot already. '''More importantly''', Ron D. Moore said that MORE THAN ONE Battlestar is usually in a Battlestar Group. It's like a navy carrier battlegroup. it ''can't'' be "Groups are number after the registry of their battlestar", because that would be ONE Battlestar, singular. There are multiple Battlestars in each Group.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:17, 25 January 2006 (EST)
[[Image:BS-62.jpg|right|thumb|Pegasus BS 62]]
::Ricimer, I am completley aware that there is a difference between BS and BSG. And I am fully aware that BSGs can have multiple Battlestars, I read that blog too and have seen that article within the wiki. But, the Galactica BSG is clearly named after Galactica's registry - BS-75. You can see BS-75 emblazoned on the flight pods below "Galactica" in high-res captures. If you want to extend the battle group analogy that RDM brought up, its notable that modern carrier battle groups (battle group is actually an obsolete term, they are now called "carrier strike groups" - thought CVBG is still used as an acronym) are named after their flagship. For instance, the battle group with the USS Abraham Lincoln as the flag is called the Abraham Lincoln Strike Group. Pegasus was the lead of her BSG. The flag officer commanding BSG-62, Cain, made her flag on Pegasus. Therefore, just like BSG-75 is named after Galactica BS-75, BSG-62 is named after Pegasus BS-62. But if you still don't believe me, I've uploaded a clear screencap of the flightpod, showing the text "Pegasus BS 62" from Resurrection Ship, pt. 2. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 23:15, 25 January 2006 (EST)
:::Obviously the facts speak for themselves, but I'm going to chime in in BMS' defense here. The evidence is unequivocal. Thank you for researching the issue so thoroughly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:38, 26 January 2006 (EST)
::::Thanks Peter. During my research, I found it interesting that modern carrier strike groups are almost never refered to as "CVBG 71" or something similar, like they are in the Galactica universe. I bet that it's because RDM thought "Galactica Strike Group" sounded unweildy, but BSG 75 sounded cool. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 13:00, 26 January 2006 (EST)

:::: Bada-bing, bada-boom. Case closed. No need for drama folks. Either it was shown or it wasn't. Before, it looked like it wasn't shown, but this cap seals it. Nice research. --[[User:Day|Day]] 07:15, 26 January 2006 (EST)

:I agree that it's BS-62. It's visible in the CIC wall in "Pegasus" and "Resurrection Ship" and visible on the podium in the pilot briefing room. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:13, 25 January 2006 (EST)
:Whether or not Pegasus is "BSG-62" is not in question: the page for BSG-62 was updated and confirmed as soon as "Resurrection Ship, Part I" came out, some time ago.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:17, 25 January 2006 (EST)
::Perhaps the BSGs are numbered after the lead ship in the group, like the flagship. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:28, 25 January 2006 (EST)

==Four Landing Strips?==
Did I just notice four landing strips in The Captain's Hand? one right side up and one upside down (relative to the rest of the shape, this is space after all, everything is relative). This would make sense with the images of the upside down launch tubes. Something commenting on the extra landing strips should be put in --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 03:08, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:No. We addressed this in the talk for Captain's Hand; the camera was upside down to reflect to the viewers that the ship was twisting around, etc. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:53, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Yes, the Pegasus was flying "inverted" relative to the Cameras POV...however the Pegasus does indeed possess 4 landing strips, @ 2 strips per Flight Pod. look at the following image: http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Pegasus01.jpg you can clearly see 4 landing strips in that image.As well as the fact that when she is recalling her vipers you can clearly see Vipers entering the Port Flight pod on both sides of the center line. Rewatch that sequence again its pretty obvious.--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

Talk:Pegasus (TRS)/Archive 1

2006-02-18T17:29:55Z

Strato: /* Four Landing Strips? */

Holy frak!!! Look at the SIZE of that thing! I love the look of this advanced battlestar, and hope we get a few more good looks at her and how good a fighter it is--but not against Adama, please. Pictures, pictures, pictures needed, particularly interior shots as well. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

: I think we should reference that it bears a similar shape of the original Galactica. [[User:QX100|QX100]] 16:32, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

::Don't all Battlestars? Or do you mean more similar than the new ''Galactica'' herself? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:40, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

:::What I Meant was that the pegasus and all ships in the Mercury-class have the same bulky resemblence of the Battlestars from the original series. [[User:QX100|QX100]] 22:48, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

::::Well, if you look at the end portion in that one pic, you can see the 2 hull-mounted engines which is the original structure of the battlestar in the original series and it seems like the 4 other sublight engines are "attached" to it. [[User:Blacklight|Blacklight]]
== Fleet unit ==

I couldn't make it out - I believe the Pegasus was assigned to the [[62nd Battlestar Group]], but I can't be sure. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 13:34, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

== Pegasus Battle Group ==

It belonged to BSG 62

[[Image:Cain_Pegasus_emblem_BSG_63.jpg]]

:That's what I pointed out on the 87th BSG page before it got deleted. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 07:56, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

::That's what it looks like to me as well. I think that we should move the BSG 75 page to just "BSG" and note it there, though, not on its own page. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:56, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

Its BSG 62...not BSG63.--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

== the CNP ==

Did pegasus have it and when do you think they got rid of it?
--[[User:Alex mcpherson|Alex mcpherson]] 13:02, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

Ron Moore's podcast mentions that in a cut scene, Cain explains that their computer systems were offline for the refit. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:50, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

: Actually, that scene was in the aired show when Adama, Roslin, and Cain sat down over drinks. Cain indicated they the ship jumped since, without the other computers, they were defenseless--the only thing online, apparently, were the navigation and/or FTL computers. Does this mean that Pegasus never had the CNP? They probably did. I bet they learned quickly and retrofit their ships immediately as they likely got the same information about the fleet's failure rates over wireless as did Galactica. It would have been impossible for Pegasus to fight Cylons otherwise. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:22, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

::The CNP was quite new at the time of the mini-series. Maybe it was scheduled to be installed during the refit. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 28 September 2005 (EDT)
::: Thats all i needed to know. so ''Mercury''-class dont have it for those that hadnt been refitted yet. that means there could be other battlestars out there..
::::This is only speculation on my part. Spencerian's explanation is also plausible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:37, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

==Gina's Origin==

Gina's origin was never stated in the episode. I know that this was widely speculated on spoiler sites prior to the episode, but that doesn't count for much. Maybe we'll learn more about her later. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:59, 1 October 2005 (EDT)

:In the Gina section of wiki states and I quote, "'''Gina is a Humano-Cylon who was "rescued" by the Pegasus, claiming to be a survivng civilian dock worker'''. After befriending the crew, she betrayed them to the Cylons, whom summarily boarded the Pegasus and terminated 800 of her crew. " That was why I put that in. --[[User:Blacklight|Blacklight]]

::Believe it or not, we're not actually a very reliable source. I'll fix that up. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:45, 1 October 2005 (EDT)

==Pegasus Fleet==

Should we post information on Pegasus's fleet in the Pegasus article? I know we don't know very much so far, except that there were 15 ships and one of them was the Scylla, but it stands to reason that we'll probably learn about some of the other ships as the new season progresses and if we get to meet other civilian crew members of Pegasus.--Ltcrashdown 01:51, 7 January 2006 (EST)

:Best place, as I see it. Probably less confusing here than [[The Fleet (RDM)|The Fleet]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:59, 7 January 2006 (EST)

::I definately agree on that front. The 15 ships certainly won't be showing up to join the fleet so there's no reason to include them there. I'll add the info we already know about the ships (aside from the mutiny stuff which we can add later).--Ltcrashdown 02:12, 7 January 2006 (EST)

In the process of adding info on the Pegasus fleet, Ricimer added his own details. Rather than rudely delete his comments, I'm just going to post what I wrote here, sot hat it doesn't go to waste. I'll probably incorporate some of what I wrote into the current article later, but for now I'd like to leave it here. Hope that's not a problem.--Ltcrashdown 02:24, 7 January 2006 (EST)

Shortly after the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], Pegasus picked up 15 civilian ships which Admiral Cain sought to exploit for military use. Some of the passengers were drafted into ther Pegasus's crew, while just about any useful equipment and parts were stripped from the craft.

The ships included:
:The [[Scylla]] - civilian transport
:14 other ships of unknown design

An interesting note about the ships of Pegasus's short-lived fleet was that several of them had weapons which were later removed on Admiral Cain's orders.

Also, the FTL drives on the ships were removed, but for unknown use (it can be assumed that the FTL drives would probably be too small for Pegasus and too big for Vipers/Raptors, so maybe they were used for parts in the event that the FTL of the Pegasus or a Raptor might break down, Note that this is pure speculation).

== Pegasus Images ==
There's a ton of close up Pegasus shots in the file list that aren't being used. Flyby's, zoomins on various components, etc. Should we use some of them here (or elsewhere)? I'm on something of a campaign to clean up (delete) pics that aren't being used (due to [http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewtopic&gid=77846&tid=75618 this discussion]), and this was the biggest pattern I could find. If they're worth keeping around, I won't object, but it seems like if they were worth using they would have been linked to (especially since some of them have been around since September).--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:29, 16 January 2006 (EST)

:It might be sensible to list them by subject and see if any of them can be used in picture-wanting articles before we trash them all. Worth the effort? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:24, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::Sure. I'll work on an [[User:Steelviper/IslandofMisfitImages/|"Island of Misfit Images"]] to see if we can't find a home for them. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:28, 17 January 2006 (EST)

==Vipers==
What about vipers? What model do they have? --[[User:PhoenixHacker|PhoenixHacker]] 20:47, 16 January 2006 (EST)
: Mark IVs. As did a majority of the Colonial Fleet. (The only reason Galactica has any Mark IIs is because they were museum displays.) -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:55, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::That's Mark VII. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:57, 16 January 2006 (EST)

== Pegasus Registry Number ==

I am nearly positive that Pegasus' registry number is BS-62, however, I will present my evidence before (and if) I make an edit to the article.

A. Pictures:
[[Image:Pegasus_1.JPG|thumb|left]]
[[Image:TheEnemysGateIsDown3.jpg|thumb|left]]

B. Reasoning: We know that Galactica's registry number is BS-75. Galactica was also a member of BSG-75. I think that its safe to say that Battlestar Groups are numbered after the registry of their Battlestar, or else this is a pretty big coincidence. Pegasus' was a member of BSG-62, and the registry in those pictures looks like BS-62.

Thats why I made the orignal edit to the article. If we still think this isn't enough evidence, I won't edit it again. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 17:58, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:But your reasoning is utterly irrelevant. Ron D. Moore has stated, in his blog, that it is not a registry number but the number of their Battlestar Group. The number written on their hulls and ship emblem on their seals and patches seen since the miniseries say "BSG 75". They just like to display their Group number instead of registry; not exactly like Earth military now, etc. I'm sorry, but none of us will probably say this is good evidence; you haven't been here for a while BMS, but this has all be gone over a lot already. '''More importantly''', Ron D. Moore said that MORE THAN ONE Battlestar is usually in a Battlestar Group. It's like a navy carrier battlegroup. it ''can't'' be "Groups are number after the registry of their battlestar", because that would be ONE Battlestar, singular. There are multiple Battlestars in each Group.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:17, 25 January 2006 (EST)
[[Image:BS-62.jpg|right|thumb|Pegasus BS 62]]
::Ricimer, I am completley aware that there is a difference between BS and BSG. And I am fully aware that BSGs can have multiple Battlestars, I read that blog too and have seen that article within the wiki. But, the Galactica BSG is clearly named after Galactica's registry - BS-75. You can see BS-75 emblazoned on the flight pods below "Galactica" in high-res captures. If you want to extend the battle group analogy that RDM brought up, its notable that modern carrier battle groups (battle group is actually an obsolete term, they are now called "carrier strike groups" - thought CVBG is still used as an acronym) are named after their flagship. For instance, the battle group with the USS Abraham Lincoln as the flag is called the Abraham Lincoln Strike Group. Pegasus was the lead of her BSG. The flag officer commanding BSG-62, Cain, made her flag on Pegasus. Therefore, just like BSG-75 is named after Galactica BS-75, BSG-62 is named after Pegasus BS-62. But if you still don't believe me, I've uploaded a clear screencap of the flightpod, showing the text "Pegasus BS 62" from Resurrection Ship, pt. 2. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 23:15, 25 January 2006 (EST)
:::Obviously the facts speak for themselves, but I'm going to chime in in BMS' defense here. The evidence is unequivocal. Thank you for researching the issue so thoroughly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:38, 26 January 2006 (EST)
::::Thanks Peter. During my research, I found it interesting that modern carrier strike groups are almost never refered to as "CVBG 71" or something similar, like they are in the Galactica universe. I bet that it's because RDM thought "Galactica Strike Group" sounded unweildy, but BSG 75 sounded cool. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 13:00, 26 January 2006 (EST)

:::: Bada-bing, bada-boom. Case closed. No need for drama folks. Either it was shown or it wasn't. Before, it looked like it wasn't shown, but this cap seals it. Nice research. --[[User:Day|Day]] 07:15, 26 January 2006 (EST)

:I agree that it's BS-62. It's visible in the CIC wall in "Pegasus" and "Resurrection Ship" and visible on the podium in the pilot briefing room. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:13, 25 January 2006 (EST)
:Whether or not Pegasus is "BSG-62" is not in question: the page for BSG-62 was updated and confirmed as soon as "Resurrection Ship, Part I" came out, some time ago.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:17, 25 January 2006 (EST)
::Perhaps the BSGs are numbered after the lead ship in the group, like the flagship. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:28, 25 January 2006 (EST)

==Four Landing Strips?==
Did I just notice four landing strips in The Captain's Hand? one right side up and one upside down (relative to the rest of the shape, this is space after all, everything is relative). This would make sense with the images of the upside down launch tubes. Something commenting on the extra landing strips should be put in --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 03:08, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:No. We addressed this in the talk for Captain's Hand; the camera was upside down to reflect to the viewers that the ship was twisting around, etc. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:53, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Yes, the Pegasus was flying "inverted" relative to the Cameras POV...however the Pegasus does indeed possess 4 landing strips, @ 2 strips per Flight Pod. look at the following image: http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Pegasus01.jpg you can clearly see 4 landing strips in that image.
As well as the fact that when she is recalling her vipers you can clearly see Vipers entering the Port Flight pod on both sides of the center line.
Rewatch that sequence again its pretty obvious.--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

Talk:Pegasus (TRS)/Archive 1

2006-02-18T17:24:45Z

Strato: /* Pegasus Battle Group */

File talk:Destroyed Battlestar Mini.JPG

2006-02-10T23:09:09Z

Strato:

I believe this to be an "Original BattleStar" class...while its not clear which Battlestar she is, at the time of the miniseries production, this was the only other shot with a Battlestar that we see...and the likely hood that they designed an entirely new CG Model for this shot is slim given Bugetary concerns..though she may been intended to be a newer class of ship in the script.(Wondering if this is covered in the Novelization?)
If you look closely though...it does appear that this Battlestar still has all her exterior Armour plating attached...unlike Galactica who had been partially stripped prior to decomisioning.--[[Stratohead|Stratohead]]

:A) It is impossible to tell from this shot if the armor is there or not or whatever. B) We've pretty much settled upon the idea that the Novelization is in no way canoncial (although it's fun for several tidbits). C) I think we also figured out that the original battlestar class, "Galacitca-type Battlestars", weren't all retired: what Doral meant by "last of her kind" is that ''Galactica'' was never given major upgrades and refits, while the other ones were; I think their hulls were heavily refitted. Sort of like how the ''USS Missouri'' saw service in both World War II and Persian Gulf I. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:39, 10 February 2006 (EST)

::In reality, it's unlikely that the zoic team had modeled any additional battlestar classes for the miniseries. Since the shot was so short, they probably used the Galactica-type model. That said, the image really is too blurry to tell for sure, and I prefer to leave the matter up to the imagination. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:46, 10 February 2006 (EST)

:::Perhaps this pic would fit as a thumb in the right side of the overview of [[Galactica type battlestar]]? (Although it kind of makes the "last of her kind still in service" in that paragraph make less sense). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:01, 10 February 2006 (EST)

:::I tend to agree with SV, and after looking at the article where its placed, it seems appropriate enough, although I do feel that it was just the Galactica models reused for a one-shot graphic. I like to imagine. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:02, 10 February 2006 (EST)

::::I enjoy it's current use, as well.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:06, 10 February 2006 (EST)

It is not "impossible to tell from this shot if the armor is there or not or whatever"...Photoshop can tell you alot about an image...as well as viewing the scene on DVD on a large HiDef Television. The Armour is indeed in place on this model in this sequence from the miniseries.--[[Stratohead|Stratohead]]

File talk:Destroyed Battlestar Mini.JPG

2006-02-10T17:34:26Z

Strato:

File talk:Colonies3el.gif

2006-02-10T16:15:44Z

Strato:

What is the source of this? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:07, 8 February 2006 (EST)

:I also note that Aerelon, Canceron, Sagittaron, Aquaria, Picon, and Gemenon seem to be misspelled. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:11, 8 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, very much so. This doesn't look reliable at all.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 18:15, 8 February 2006 (EST)

::Strato did say "may be speculative" when he uploaded the image. --[[User:Kraetos|Kraetos]] 21:18, 8 February 2006 (EST)

:::We need to know the source for copyright purposes. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:20, 8 February 2006 (EST)

::::He probably made it. Still, I wouldn't recommend using it anywhere, for that reason. --[[User:Kraetos|Kraetos]] 22:09, 8 February 2006 (EST)
:::::If it's his, he needs to explicitly grant permission for us to use it on the description page. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:33, 9 February 2006 (EST)

::::I believe this should be classified fan fiction, artful as it is. Names appear TOS but banners are RDM. I recommend we give the contributor a chance for the source, but put it on the clock with a deletion tag. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:08, 8 February 2006 (EST)

I pulled it down off of a costume/prop building site. I don't know who created the file originally. My intent was not for this to be used for anything more than a comparison of matching Colony Names to their appropriate Banners, to help illustrate the discussion(so you could see what I was talking about). (since their seems to be confusion about this all over the web.) And yes I am aware the names of a few of the colonies are incorrect for RDM. as far as "copyright" doesn't really apply here does it? Since the person who created this file doesn't own/hold any rights to this property. I will see about finding out who made it anyways just for attributions sake.--[[Stratohead|Stratohead]]

:I think it's a little different than using image clips from galacticastation, since there really is some creative effort on the part of the artist. While the copyright might still belong to universal ultimately, it's a much more debateable situation than unmodified screen captures, and I'm uncomfortable hosting the image here without explicit permission from its creator. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:20, 9 February 2006 (EST)

Understood. I can go ahead and recreate the image (and correct the names while I am at it) if I can get a consensus opinion on the banners matching the Colonys...would that work?--[[Stratohead|Stratohead]]

:I believe the image can be credited to 137thGebirg, from the Galactica Actual forum, but since that forum has been deleted, and I don't know of any way to contact him, I don't think we should use the image. --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 14:24, 9 February 2006 (EST)
::I've seen this guy's work on the TrekBBS. He did both the ranks chart and this one. If I remember correctly, he was going to submit these here eventually. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 15:43, 9 February 2006 (EST)
:::If you would like to encourage the author to submit it here himself, that would be excellent, but in the meantime, the image should be deleted. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:34, 9 February 2006 (EST)

I can do that...and I understand your concerns...but what I am not getting from you guys is a simple answer to the real question I posed...which would be, Spelling of Colony Names aside, can we get an agreement that the banners match the Colonies? Seriously...a simple yes or no will suffice...I can create what ever imagery you want
but I need to be certain what name goes with which banner first.--[[Stratohead|Stratohead]]

File talk:Colonies3el.gif

2006-02-09T17:41:01Z

Strato:

File talk:Colonies3el.gif

2006-02-09T16:08:48Z

Strato:

User talk:Strato

2006-02-08T22:37:45Z

Strato:

Looking over the section on "People from X Colony" http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Category:Colonial
I noticed that some of the Banners for the Colonies themselves are incorrectly assinged.
Still getting my feet wet regarding WikiEditing...and don't wish to step on any toes...unsure how to go about making the corrections?

:First of all, let me thank you for proceeding cautiously, since this is a contentious issue. The page [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)]] was recently updated by Ltcrashdown to reflect the assignments offered in the Official Companion and issue three of the magazine, which I'm currently willing to acknowlege as accurate. If you have any points of disagreement with the assignments given on that article, please leave a message on the talk page first; otherwise feel free to procede with correcting the various category pages. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:11, 8 February 2006 (EST)

:Yeah... I was sort of procrastinating updating those categories until that debate sorted itself out. It seems to have settled down, so if you want to fix the banners that'd be great! (I mostly added them to the categories to get them off of the Island of Misfit images without deleting them, but I've started to like the looks of them). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:15, 8 February 2006 (EST)

The entry found here
http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29

appears to have the correct Banner Assignments from what I understand...but the indivual listings for "People from Colony..." etc seem to be a bit messed up.
is there a consensus agreement then that the following (which I understand to have been based on the magazine article refrenced by Peter) is cannon?
http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/images/3/36/Colonies3el.gif
--[[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

User talk:Strato

2006-02-08T22:36:50Z

Strato:

Looking over the section on "People from X Colony" http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Category:Colonial
I noticed that some of the Banners for the Colonies themselves are incorrectly assinged.
Still getting my feet wet regarding WikiEditing...and don't wish to step on any toes...unsure how to go about making the corrections?

:First of all, let me thank you for proceeding cautiously, since this is a contentious issue. The page [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)]] was recently updated by Ltcrashdown to reflect the assignments offered in the Official Companion and issue three of the magazine, which I'm currently willing to acknowlege as accurate. If you have any points of disagreement with the assignments given on that article, please leave a message on the talk page first; otherwise feel free to procede with correcting the various category pages. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:11, 8 February 2006 (EST)

:Yeah... I was sort of procrastinating updating those categories until that debate sorted itself out. It seems to have settled down, so if you want to fix the banners that'd be great! (I mostly added them to the categories to get them off of the Island of Misfit images without deleting them, but I've started to like the looks of them). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:15, 8 February 2006 (EST)

The entry found here http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29
appears to have the correct Banner Assignments from what I understand...but the indivual listings for "People from Colony..." etc seem to be a bit messed up.
is there a consensus agreement then that the following (which I understand to have been based on the magazine article refrenced by Peter) is cannon?
http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/images/3/36/Colonies3el.gif
--[[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

Battlestar Wiki talk:The Twelve Colonies

2006-02-08T17:50:06Z

Strato:

I think fleet issues should be treated seperately from the issues of the twelve colonies unless the evidence of a certain item is likely to be found in both. What I mean is, we never see the Quorum of Twelve until the third to last episode of the first season, however it most definitely did exist in the twelve colonies only items such as this should be found in the twelve colonies but because we no nothing of the Quorum of Twelve pre-holocaust nothing more than a reference should be in any substantial article refering to this time. Most people would recognize the fleet post-holocaust is a very unique and different situation from the one experienced on the twelve colonies, therefore the fleet should be treated as such by this site.
--Zareck Rocks 21:29, 9 September 2005 (EDT)

Looking over the section on "People from X Colony" http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Category:Colonial I noticed that some of the Banners for the Colonies themselves are incorrectly assinged. Still getting my feet wet regarding WikiEditing...and don't wish to step on any toes...unsure how to go about making the corrections?
-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

User talk:Strato

2006-02-08T17:45:47Z

Strato: Colonial Banners fix?

Talk:Black Market/Archive 1

2006-02-07T20:46:02Z

Strato: /* Shevon's name? */

==Analysis==
The criticism here needs to be toned down drastically. I personally enjoyed this episode much more than I had been expecting to. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:16, 28 January 2006 (EST)
: I don't know exactly how to feel about this episode. Honestly, it wasn't all that bad -- it could have been much better executed, however. I can't really disagree with any of the critisms leveled at this episode, primarily because I hold them to be evident as well. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:45, 28 January 2006 (EST)
::I'm in agreement, the analysis section does need to be toned down a little. Some of the criticisms are totally justified, while other parts seem unduly harsh. It wasn't a great episode but despite its flaws in did tell an interesting story. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 10:12, 28 January 2006 (EST)

I've edited this article heavily to concise it from its overly play-by-play format, but it could still see a more concising eye. I've also toned down the analysis to provable (i.e., non-subjective) points of the episode, deleting redundant or highly subjective commentary. There was too much personal bias in the story, reading more like a review than an analysis. Despite the small story in this episode, this article is quite weighty than the others. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:50, 28 January 2006 (EST)

Thank you for editing down my Analysis. Sometimes it's hard to do a write up, so I just let myself rant, and acutally ''hoped'' that others would heavily edit it down to something more concise, depending one whether they agreed or not. I was just getting the ball rolling. Thanks. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:57, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:I was about to say, the summary seems a bit lengthy. It's supposed to be a summary, not a play-by-play. I admire the fact the Noteworthy Dialogue's have been shorter lately, focusing on critical stuff. Thanks for the edit, but I still think its overly detailed. Read the summaries for "33" and "Water" and see that they focus on what happens during the episode and not why or reasoning. I feel like i'm reading an essay rather then a description, but thats just me. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 18:10, 28 January 2006 (EST)
::That's simply because there hasn't been as much quotable stuff in the past two episodes, while a LOT of Res Ship I and II was quoteable. Yeah, it was a little long but I was just trying to hurry and get it all on before I had to turn my computer off. I don't normally do summariies, besides; the plot was really confusing and took quite a few twists and turns. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:08, 28 January 2006 (EST)
:::Whoa, look at that summary. I saw an earlier version this morning, and its better now, but its still exceptionally long when compared to other episodes. Someone needs to take to it with a flaming chainsaw. I'd do it, but I am somewhat unsure of how much would be too much, as Ricimer is correct - it was a complicated episode. Does anyone really like it the way it is now, or can I go in there and edit it? Remember, it can always be reverted. I'd rather shorten it too much, and then have us realize that some points were exceptionally important and replace them, then leave it too long with unimportant points left in. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:18, 28 January 2006 (EST)

: I actually pared it down a bit, and made it more chronologically correct. Any hint of analysis or reasoning in the Summary's content is not my doing -- I try to keep a very sterile "This happened, then that" approach in writing. I'm sure that a few "steps" can be condensed further, but looking it over at this point, it looks like it describes what transcended fairly well. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 20:56, 28 January 2006 (EST)
::Got rid of a few analysis points myself, looks a lot better now. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 16:10, 29 January 2006 (EST)

I don't know if the flashbacks of Apollo's relationship from before the attack should be characterized as an "interesting turn." "Contrived" would make more sense. We've heard next to nothing about Apollo's relationships for 26 episodes, not to mention the miniseries, and all of a sudden he has a pregnant girlfriend that he misses terribly? I can excuse someone like Wallace Grey appearing out of nowhere, but this is just too much, and I think the analysis should reflect that. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 13:37, 29 January 2006 (EST)

Regarding Drumstick's edit at 03:38, 30 January 2006: ''''You have done well, grasshopper'''' --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:37, 29 January 2006 (EST)

:Just trying to stick to the high standard set by all of you =) Thanks Ricimer. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 01:03, 31 January 2006 (EST)

== Regular vs. Guest Star ==
I noticed that someone edited this and said that they "included Leah Cairns (Racetrack)" as a Guest Star. At what point are characters considered "regulars" versus just being a spot-on "guest star"? Personally, I consider characters like Racetrack, Cat, and Hot Dog as regulars by now, albeit in the minor, second-tier category. They are existing in the "Wedge factor"... or, to put it better, they are in that role that [[Boomer (TOS)|Boomer]] and [[Jolly (TOS)|Jolly]] held in The Old Series -- that of a regularly re-occuring peripheral character that the fan can follow, and aren't getting killed off every episode like the Star Trek "Redshirt". -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 10:50, 28 January 2006 (CST)

:There are seven regulars - Edward James Olmos, Mary McDonnell, James Callis, Tricia Helfer, Jamie Bamber, Katee Sakhoff, and Grace Park. They are contracted on a per-season basis. Everyone else is a guest star, paid on a per-episode basis. There are two types of guest star - those listed during the opening of Act 1, after the intro sequence, and those listed in the credits at the end of the episode. I'm not entirely sure what the difference is, but the larger roles tend to be the ones listed earlier. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:56, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:It's a bit of a grey area; officially, there are 7 "regular cast" members, as stated above. There's also "recurring characters", in legalize, these are "guest stars" that appear in most episodes. Case in point, Colonel Tigh has been in every episode but ins't counted as a main cast member (something to do with salaries, etc) and Chief Tyrol has appeard in all but two episodes (he grew more as they went along), so he's kind of also a recurring character too. Cally kind of also grew into that, as well. So the line between "regular" and "recurring" is blurry for Col. Tigh and Tyrol. Similarly, there is a blurry line between "guest" and "recurring". Several "guest" characters reappear more than once (Elosh, Dr. Cottle, Cain and Fisk I guess). Meanwhile, Kat and Hot Dog were originally intended as one-shot guests, but according to the DVD commentary, RDM was surprised that other writers would then script them in whenever "another pilot" was required, and they've been building up Kat. Likewise, Racetrack was just a "guest" but I think has advanced to "recurring" becase of all the character development she got in Final Cut and Flight of the Phoenix and she's also appeared alot. At any rate, there's a blurry line and it's really subjective.
:That said, I do want to add "Helo and Tyrol do not appear in this episode" to the notes for easy referrence, because even though they aren't "regulars", they have each only missed one maybe two episodes before this. Tyrol wasn't in "Home, Part I", and Helo wasn't in "Fragged". So I think that makes it significant enough to put down there.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 13:33, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::BSG also makes the distinction of "co-stars" which appear at the beginning of Act 1 but without the heading of "Guest Star" that all the other guest stars do. I think Racetrack, Kat, and Hot Dog are still listed as actual guest stars, though. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 13:26, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::I still disagree. There's no expectation that guest characters like Helo and Tyrol will appear in every episode, so their absence here is really unremarkable. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:00, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::Given that both of them have each appeared in all but one of the previous episodes, I would actually find it ''quite'' remarkable. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:06, 28 January 2006 (EST)

== Baltar's Treason ==
Seems to me there's a lot of "jumping the gun" vis-a-vis Baltar. For one thing, he did not knowingly have anything to do with the Cylon attack. While his actions were unethical, he clearly had no intention of committing genocide. He was a dupe in that respect. Nor is there any reason for the President to think him working with the Cylons on the basis of his having been with '''Six''' prior to the attack unless she also had some motive for believing he knew this woman to be a Cylon (which he did not). If confronted with this fact, he can (with complete honesty even) say: "Madame President, no less than two crewmembers of the Galactica fell in love with a Cylon. So did I. I admit this. And, like them, I did not know she was a Cylon. Nor can I say in total candor my feelings for the woman I knew are not still...tender. As well as not a little bit confused. This was not a matter I would share willingly. But if you examine the facts, you will realize it likely I was neither the first, the tenth, or even the hundredth human being to be so deceived by the nature of our enemy."

She may think him a selfish, unethical wild card (and I'd agree). She may dislike him personally and think he'd best be as far from any kind of political power as possible. That seems to me totally reasonable. But what reason has anyone to think he's an actual traitor? A Cylon himself? Ah, that would at least make some sense, as far as suspicions go. But how to prove it? And besides, what if he isn't? [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 12:21, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:You're also talking about a woman who had an epiphany during a very traumatic situation, and like most of the people in the Fleet, Laura is human...and humans make mistakes. She might be "on the ball" in every way when it comes to her work as President, but her dislike of Baltar is on a personal level, and personal feelings, no matter how much people try to prevent it, will come into play in other aspects of their dealing with the situation. I suspect that will crystalize more as we go towards the season finale.

:There is also the fact that while Baltar may have been a dupe in the beginning, he's cleaning perilously close to the pit of darkness now, and today's dupe may well end up being season three's traitor.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 19:34, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::RDM notes in his podcast for ''Epiphanies'' and implies in his podcast for ''Black Market'' that it was his intention that the viewer understand Roslin's reaction in ''Epiphanies'' as her realization that Baltar "had something to do with it." "It" being the Cylon Attack. Whether RDM pulled that off or not is, of course, up to the viewer. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 19:39, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::Regardless, she doesn't have physical "evidence" against him, so acting on what she remembered might be harder to do. --'''''[[User_talk:Ricimer|Ricimer]]''''' 20:11, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::::Not to mention that in a case of law, it's merely "he said, she said". Yeah, few in the fleet like him, and they'd probably love to bounce him out the first airlock sans space suit, but as long as they have courts, laws and a (slightly flagging) desire for order, he's got the law on his side.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 03:53, 29 January 2006 (EST)

::::: Baltar could even confirm every single fact Roselyn might offer, yet still realistically claim innocence. The simple facts are that, while there is something fishy going on, no one has any real evidence that Baltar is guilty of anything. And I still suspect he's going to end up in a real sense saving the day--because life is like that. Some of the greatest leaders have had repellant qualities while sometimes those with nothing but good intentions really frak things up. Besides, look at it this way. This war has only three possible ends: (1) Humanity is wiped out, very possible. (2) The Cylons are wiped out, highly unlikely. (3) Cylons and Humans find a way to share the universe. Between them, Baltar seems to be working for option number three.

:::::: Also Baltar has already been publicly accused of treason and managed to demonstrate that the accusation was false. Roselyn would require some solid evidence (which at the moment she doesn't have) to publicly accuse him otherwise it could easily be dismissed as another attempt to smear his name. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 18:45, 29 January 2006 (EST)

== Shevon's name? ==

Minor question here: are we sure about the spelling of her name? Watching the
episode, I assumed it was Siobhan, a fairly common name of (I think) Irish origin, which
is pronounced approximately like "Shevon". Was surprised to see "Shevon" listed as the actual spelling.--Ashe

:Ashe, I ran into you saying this before on the official messageboard, where I man known as "The Merovingian". I had assumed you were being sarcastic. I really, REALLY don't want to be rude in any way, but simply list what I feel are the facts, and I say this without being condescending: 1) Multiple Galactiaca news sites and previews like Gateworld refer to her as "Shevon" 2) It ''sounds'' like "Shevon" 3) No one that ''I'' have myself encountered ever thought that was anything like an Irish name. It seems to me like you are letting personal feelings get in the way of your interpretations. If anyone else would like to comment on this to clear things up, please do so. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:19, 30 January 2006 (EST)

::Sorry, that was not me. Please make sure you're flaming the right person, hmm?
I have never asked this question (or seen it addressed) anywhere else. Let me take your points in reverse order. #3: According to www.babynamesofireland.com, Siobhan is currently their number-one most popular girl's name. #2: Siobhan is pronounced like "Shevon", as I already said. #1: If official BSG sites list this character's name as "Shevon" then I'm not arguing otherwise. Just needed clarification, which you have provided. On to other topics, then.
--Ashe

:Please sign your names to things. Thank you for seeing that it's on other Galactica sites too, but I want to point out that your logic doesn't make sense there. You said that you though that "Shevon" might be the Irish name "Siobhan". I said it wasn't. Your counterpoint to this was to point out that, ''in Ireland'', the Irish name Siobhan is the most popular female baby name? That doesn't really prove anything one way or the other. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:27, 30 January 2006 (EST)

::Not gonna fight this one with you. My goal was, and is, to help improve the contents of the wiki, which sometimes includes asking questions about things. Sorry for not knowing how to generate the name/date/timestamp before now. -- [[User:Ashe|Ashe]] 17:23, 30 January 2006 (EST)

::Ricimer, you're overreacting again. A simple explanation would have sufficed. Remember to assume good faith. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:17, 30 January 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed. But I felt I might as well be definative; the Tyrol v. Hadrian rank thing has dragged out for some time because we didn't list all evidence at the beginning. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:35, 30 January 2006 (EST)

::::Practice being definitive and polite at the same time. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:37, 30 January 2006 (EST)

:::::I concur with Peter. Ricimer, please assume good faith; it is possible to be polite and truthful simultaneously. Thank you, Ricimer. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:19, 30 January 2006 (EST)

as a side note...when all else fails...check IMDB for character name spellings. in this case ( http://imdb.com/title/tt0519764/ ) its spelled "Shevon".--[[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

Talk:Uniforms (RDM)/Archive2

2006-02-07T20:37:06Z

Strato: /* Battle Dress Uniform */

== Battle Dress Uniform ==

There seem to be two collar variations of the BDU's in Home pt. II, the normal collar like in any dress shirt worn by Apollo, and the Mandarin collar uniform worn by Adama. The Mandarin is the stand up collar that in the new generation uniforms is for comfort under body armor. You can see the difference in the screenshots for home on the reference link in the main article. The big two pics are the one of Apollo with the shouldered rifle and any of the Adama pics were he has the pepperbox aimed at Boomer's head.

:I agree. I'll make the change. Also, I may have been wrong about the flight suits. They could be plastic or vinyl instead of leather, opinions? Use this image as a reference. http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/1.06/imagepages/image2.html

I don't know, it looks like leather. I'll brainstorm on this. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:21, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

:The sleeves look like Vinyl. The vest looks like an unpolished leather. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:15, 12 September 2005 (EDT)

:: To me, the suit bit (sleeve, pegs, under-vest, etc.) looks like some kind of ''rubber'' material to me. I've thought this for a while now. I imagine that it's some kind of Space-Age Technology that is super-insulative and air-tight that would help in the case of cabin depressurization while in a Viper. This is, after all, the flight suit. I agree that the vest thingie looks leather. --[[User:Day|Day]] 18:34, 12 September 2005 (EDT)

:::I agree with Day in that the flighsuit is probably a futuristic Space-Age material. I wonder what the actual costumes are made of (besides the vest, it is most likely unpolished leather). --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:21, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

If you are talking about the "Digital Urban Cammo" "BDU', which is actually known as a MARPAT...its not a collar variation, its the same collar. it can be worn like a madarin collar, or open like a standard butterfly collar.
My Question about the BDU's is what is the designation for the Khaki/Tan variant of the BDU's seen in the MiniSeries and the 1st Season?-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]
:There is no Urban MARPAT, only the Forrest and Desert versions since the Urban was never accepted. The BDUs they wear in Home look to be a commercial digital pattern based off the MARPAT like the ones you can get at UsCav. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 13:04, 7 February 2006 (EST)
::Yep. While MARPAT has become slang for digital camo, technically only the U.S. Marines can use [[Wikipedia:MARPAT|MARPAT]]. The Army countered with the [[Wikipedia:Army Combat Uniform|ACU]], which lacks the color black. The wikipedia ACU article talks about the whole "Mandarin" up/down style (like Strato said). Does anybody have captures of the older (1st season) camo pattern that Strato is talking about? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:31, 7 February 2006 (EST)
:
::I wasn't refering to a Camo Pattern when I refrenced the Khaki/Tan...but a BDU uniform that is of the same construction as the Olive Drab ones...only Khaki/Tan.
This is seen in the background a few times in the Mini-Series (once on a Deck Hand working at a bench in the hanger deck) but can be seen most clearly in the Episode "Litmus" on Sgt. Hadrian ( http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Hadrian). Just curious if thats supposed to be a Marine BDU variant, or what it is. In the Miniseries the Marines wore OD plus an armband that simply stated "Security"...so I really don't know what the color difference is supposed to mean.( in my last post above I was refering to Digital Cammo as "MARPAT" in the same way we refer to Tissue Paper as "Kleenex" regardless of the brand...sorry if that was confusing)-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

== Pictures ==

This article (as noted on the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions|Standards and Conventions]] page) is gonna need a lot of pictures. Do you guys think that we should create a 3- or 4-equals heading for each kind of uniform to better align tha pictures with the accompanying text? This would also help in finding the specific type of uniform a reader is loking for if they were looking for that, rather than just looking for all/any uniform information. --[[User:Day|Day]] 20:48, 12 September 2005 (EDT)

== Viper Pilot's Wings ==

What is the insignia that Colonial Officers wear on their uniform on the left side of their chest. It's diamond shaped, and some have sort of wings on the top, and some on the bottom. I have wondered what each signifies, or whether they are Viper Pilot's Wings, which I thought Kara mentioned in "You Can Never Go Home"(not sure of the name) [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 21:12, October 17, 2005 (EDT)
:Apollo takes his off and pins it on Hotdog in "You Can Go Home Again." Just from the dialogue in that scene, I'd say they Wings. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:50, 17 October 2005 (EDT)
::See, that's what I'd say too, but I think Gaeta and others have the same insignia...it doesn't seem to me that it should be so common.

Adama, Tigh, Fisk, and Cain have the "wings-on-top" insignia, possibly designating a command role. Gaeta's counterpart aboard Pegasus also wears the wings. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:23, 23 January 2006 (EST)

==Jacket==
I removed the line "[[Lee Adama|Apollo]]'s flight suit identifies that he is actually qualified to pilot both." A jacket, in military aviation, is a dossier that contains all the pilots qualifications, commendations, etc. Stinger was not referring to Apollo's flight suit but his record, which he would have recieved when Apollo was transferred under his command. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:51, 22 January 2006 (EST)

: Ahhh. Ha-ha! That makes much sense, then. I guess I can take off "scrutinize Lee's uniform for mention of a Raptor" of my list of things to do. Interesting. --[[User:Day|Day]] 08:43, 23 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Uniforms (RDM)/Archive2

2006-02-07T16:12:56Z

Strato: /* Battle Dress Uniform */

== Battle Dress Uniform ==

There seem to be two collar variations of the BDU's in Home pt. II, the normal collar like in any dress shirt worn by Apollo, and the Mandarin collar uniform worn by Adama. The Mandarin is the stand up collar that in the new generation uniforms is for comfort under body armor. You can see the difference in the screenshots for home on the reference link in the main article. The big two pics are the one of Apollo with the shouldered rifle and any of the Adama pics were he has the pepperbox aimed at Boomer's head.

:I agree. I'll make the change. Also, I may have been wrong about the flight suits. They could be plastic or vinyl instead of leather, opinions? Use this image as a reference. http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/1.06/imagepages/image2.html

I don't know, it looks like leather. I'll brainstorm on this. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:21, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

:The sleeves look like Vinyl. The vest looks like an unpolished leather. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:15, 12 September 2005 (EDT)

:: To me, the suit bit (sleeve, pegs, under-vest, etc.) looks like some kind of ''rubber'' material to me. I've thought this for a while now. I imagine that it's some kind of Space-Age Technology that is super-insulative and air-tight that would help in the case of cabin depressurization while in a Viper. This is, after all, the flight suit. I agree that the vest thingie looks leather. --[[User:Day|Day]] 18:34, 12 September 2005 (EDT)

:::I agree with Day in that the flighsuit is probably a futuristic Space-Age material. I wonder what the actual costumes are made of (besides the vest, it is most likely unpolished leather). --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:21, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

If you are talking about the "Digital Urban Cammo" "BDU', which is actually known as a MARPAT...its not a collar variation, its the same collar. it can be worn like a madarin collar, or open like a standard butterfly collar.
My Question about the BDU's is what is the designation for the Khaki/Tan variant of the BDU's seen in the MiniSeries and the 1st Season?-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

== Pictures ==

This article (as noted on the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions|Standards and Conventions]] page) is gonna need a lot of pictures. Do you guys think that we should create a 3- or 4-equals heading for each kind of uniform to better align tha pictures with the accompanying text? This would also help in finding the specific type of uniform a reader is loking for if they were looking for that, rather than just looking for all/any uniform information. --[[User:Day|Day]] 20:48, 12 September 2005 (EDT)

== Viper Pilot's Wings ==

What is the insignia that Colonial Officers wear on their uniform on the left side of their chest. It's diamond shaped, and some have sort of wings on the top, and some on the bottom. I have wondered what each signifies, or whether they are Viper Pilot's Wings, which I thought Kara mentioned in "You Can Never Go Home"(not sure of the name) [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 21:12, October 17, 2005 (EDT)
:Apollo takes his off and pins it on Hotdog in "You Can Go Home Again." Just from the dialogue in that scene, I'd say they Wings. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:50, 17 October 2005 (EDT)
::See, that's what I'd say too, but I think Gaeta and others have the same insignia...it doesn't seem to me that it should be so common.

Adama, Tigh, Fisk, and Cain have the "wings-on-top" insignia, possibly designating a command role. Gaeta's counterpart aboard Pegasus also wears the wings. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:23, 23 January 2006 (EST)

==Jacket==
I removed the line "[[Lee Adama|Apollo]]'s flight suit identifies that he is actually qualified to pilot both." A jacket, in military aviation, is a dossier that contains all the pilots qualifications, commendations, etc. Stinger was not referring to Apollo's flight suit but his record, which he would have recieved when Apollo was transferred under his command. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:51, 22 January 2006 (EST)

: Ahhh. Ha-ha! That makes much sense, then. I guess I can take off "scrutinize Lee's uniform for mention of a Raptor" of my list of things to do. Interesting. --[[User:Day|Day]] 08:43, 23 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Uniforms (RDM)/Archive2

2006-02-07T16:11:02Z

Strato: /* Battle Dress Uniform */

== Battle Dress Uniform ==

There seem to be two collar variations of the BDU's in Home pt. II, the normal collar like in any dress shirt worn by Apollo, and the Mandarin collar uniform worn by Adama. The Mandarin is the stand up collar that in the new generation uniforms is for comfort under body armor. You can see the difference in the screenshots for home on the reference link in the main article. The big two pics are the one of Apollo with the shouldered rifle and any of the Adama pics were he has the pepperbox aimed at Boomer's head.

:I agree. I'll make the change. Also, I may have been wrong about the flight suits. They could be plastic or vinyl instead of leather, opinions? Use this image as a reference. http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/1.06/imagepages/image2.html

I don't know, it looks like leather. I'll brainstorm on this. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:21, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

:The sleeves look like Vinyl. The vest looks like an unpolished leather. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:15, 12 September 2005 (EDT)

:: To me, the suit bit (sleeve, pegs, under-vest, etc.) looks like some kind of ''rubber'' material to me. I've thought this for a while now. I imagine that it's some kind of Space-Age Technology that is super-insulative and air-tight that would help in the case of cabin depressurization while in a Viper. This is, after all, the flight suit. I agree that the vest thingie looks leather. --[[User:Day|Day]] 18:34, 12 September 2005 (EDT)

:::I agree with Day in that the flighsuit is probably a futuristic Space-Age material. I wonder what the actual costumes are made of (besides the vest, it is most likely unpolished leather). --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:21, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

If you are talking about the "Digital Urban Cammo" "BDU', which is actually known as a MARPAT...its not a collar variation, its the same collar. it can be worn like a madarin collar, or open like a standard butterfly collar.http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Uniforms#ref_magazine1

== Pictures ==

This article (as noted on the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions|Standards and Conventions]] page) is gonna need a lot of pictures. Do you guys think that we should create a 3- or 4-equals heading for each kind of uniform to better align tha pictures with the accompanying text? This would also help in finding the specific type of uniform a reader is loking for if they were looking for that, rather than just looking for all/any uniform information. --[[User:Day|Day]] 20:48, 12 September 2005 (EDT)

== Viper Pilot's Wings ==

What is the insignia that Colonial Officers wear on their uniform on the left side of their chest. It's diamond shaped, and some have sort of wings on the top, and some on the bottom. I have wondered what each signifies, or whether they are Viper Pilot's Wings, which I thought Kara mentioned in "You Can Never Go Home"(not sure of the name) [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 21:12, October 17, 2005 (EDT)
:Apollo takes his off and pins it on Hotdog in "You Can Go Home Again." Just from the dialogue in that scene, I'd say they Wings. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:50, 17 October 2005 (EDT)
::See, that's what I'd say too, but I think Gaeta and others have the same insignia...it doesn't seem to me that it should be so common.

Adama, Tigh, Fisk, and Cain have the "wings-on-top" insignia, possibly designating a command role. Gaeta's counterpart aboard Pegasus also wears the wings. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:23, 23 January 2006 (EST)

==Jacket==
I removed the line "[[Lee Adama|Apollo]]'s flight suit identifies that he is actually qualified to pilot both." A jacket, in military aviation, is a dossier that contains all the pilots qualifications, commendations, etc. Stinger was not referring to Apollo's flight suit but his record, which he would have recieved when Apollo was transferred under his command. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:51, 22 January 2006 (EST)

: Ahhh. Ha-ha! That makes much sense, then. I guess I can take off "scrutinize Lee's uniform for mention of a Raptor" of my list of things to do. Interesting. --[[User:Day|Day]] 08:43, 23 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Epiphanies/Archive 1

2006-02-07T16:01:53Z

Strato: /* Roslin as a Cylon */

I got the title of episode 2.12 from: [http://www.galacticastation.com/Galactica%20Station/episodes/Ep%20header%20img/S2/s2guide.htm Galactica Station]. I'd put the info in an Episode Guide Template but have yet to figure it out. Please if anyone doesn't mind teaching me how to use templates I'd like to know. Please leave the advice on my talk page.--Zareck Rocks 01:40, 18 September 2005 (EDT)
:Looks fascinating, Z. I was wondering if they would really let Roslin's character just die off when she's hitting her stride...at the same time, I was hoping they wouldn't, since cancer is cancer and, when as nasty as hers, is a fatal thing. But, the Cylons are good at bioengineering, so I can swallow this--to a point. Baltar's fix would have to rebuild damaged areas with good cells as well as destroying bad cells. Hey, I'm no doctor, but that's gotta hurt somehow. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:59, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
::Current speculation is that her disease is delayed, not cured, and that she'll again be near death by the end of the season. I don't have any source on that though. The notion of the amazing Dr. Baltar discovering a ''cure for cancer'' under the circumstances of the fleet is faintly ridiculous to me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:23, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
:: I wouldn't be surprised if there were some nasty side effects from whatever treatment Baltar (or whomever) devised. The whole "we have a cure for cancer" thing would go outside the boundaries of believability and realism, which Moore and crew are aiming for. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:11, 22 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I'll agree that an outright cure for cancer is very implausible considering all the conditions the fleet is under. It would also undermine the whole prophecy that it seems that the fleet is following. Yes Cylon biotech is advanced, but the colonials barely understand it at all. I could accept them finding a treatment that buys Roslin more time, but only as long as it's clear that it isn't a permament cure. --[[User:Wingsandsword|Wingsandsword]] 12:32, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

::: I'd say that was resolved, although it was a bit of a stretch...[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 23:18, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::: Rather eloquently stretched, at that. Seems like Cylon blood is a rather hardcore Chemo series, killing off the currently detectable malignancies. The root cause of the cancer is most likely still there, and working to re-proliferate through Roslin's system. As soon as the Cylon blood is processed and removed from her bloodstream, it should more than likely come back in full force (Which, unless I'm mistaken, takes roughly 120 days). --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 23:48, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: I put removed from her system, and not a cure on the page.--[[User:Shane|Shane]] 23:32, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: After listening to Ron Moore's blog, he is mentioning that Laura's character is too important for him to put on the sidelines for an illness. His initial plan was that she got weaker throughout the whole series, but felt that he didn't want her stuck in a hospital chair or whatnot. Granted the whole religious thing they say, "is that a dying leader will lead the people to salvation" is still up in the air, and I'm interested in seeing where they take it, if anywhere. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 14:20, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::: I haven't listened to the blog yet, but is it conceivable that the Cylon blood treatment itself might sicken/kill Roslin again in the long run? Perhaps the cancer is permanently gone, as was suggested by Doc Cottle. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 14:46, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:::: I think that Ron Moore panicked with the whole cancer thing. My grandmother had cancer for 10 years before it finally took her life and it was only in the last 6 months that she became seriously incapacitated, and that was because it did go to her brain. Prior, she had it in both breasts and her lungs but with surgery and treatment was able to function normally. Now, I understand that Roslin doesn't have the benefit of treatment and surgery due to the circumstances, but this could have played out a lot longer without what he feared of her being invalid. But consequently, because cancer is not a virus but a deformation inherent to the individual, I can definitely see complications later on as a result of the cylon blood. Additionally, another issue I have is how they make Baltar to be a "General" Scientist when it was obvious that he was a computer scientist who wrote highly elaborate computer programs. Now they have him curing cancer. --[[User:straycat0|straycat0]] 10:46, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::: I don't have so much of a problem with Baltar knowing so much about science. It's true that it would lean somewhat towards a reviled science-fiction stereotype for him to be able to solve a problem about anything, but it's been established since very early on in the first season that Baltar is the resident Cylon expert, and this episode is simply a continuation of that role. He may have written computer programs too, but lots of scientists I know are adept at many forms of science--besides, it's all sort of interconnected. We also don't really see him talking much about physics (except that comment about enthalpy when blowing up the tylium refinery in "Hand of God," but every biochemist worth his salt would probably understand enthalpy anyway), so he seems confined to bio. And so long as he's not reconfiguring the plasma manifolds to increase the range of the FTL jumps or anything like that, I'll be okay. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 15:23, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Well, he's had six months to brush up on his cylon biology. I seriously doubt anyone's been needing him to write computer programs lately. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:36, 22 January 2006 (EST)

When Roslin wakes up after being injected with the Cylon blood, she points to Baltar and mumbles something. What did she say? Was it "You're the father."? I didn't quite catch it, because my neighbours decided to test their new sound system with "The Ace of Spades" at that exact moment! (May they rot in hell!) --Axminster 23 January 2006

:I wondered about that myself, so when it replayed again later that night, I muted it and let the closed caption run. All she said was "Dr. Baltar?". It could be wrong, though. --Jasonbondshow 25 January 2006

==Starbuck's Viper==
Can anyone get a look at the tail number on Starbuck's viper in the opening? It looks like 8757 to me, but it could also be the previously identified [[Viper 8737]]. She identifies herself with the three digit number 049. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:32, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:I'll check, I need to get back to my Viper Cataloguing project. First, though, I need to go through all the edits made while I couldn't access the page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:58, 21 January 2006 (EST)

==And By the Way==
I know this isn't really a discussion forum, but am I the only one who thought that this episode ''really sucked''? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:45, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:I haven't watched it yet; have it on tape. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:20, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:Thanks mostly to Roslin's miracle cure, but also to Helo and Tyrol back to work without even a whisper of a lesser charge/punishment against them, plus the sudden jump to six months after the Attack, I agree with you, Peter Farago. The only time I ever voted 2/10 on the offical website bulletin board. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 18:35, 21 January 2006 (EST).

:It certainly had some bad ''plot'' points, all of which have been stated. And I still think it would have been possible to do a cure without making it so contrived--of course it had to happen, but I don't know if it should have been the centerpiece of an episode, or at the very least needed to be resolved in the last five minutes of one. But the stuff with Baltar running around on Cloud 9 and drawing cell diagrams in his crazy notepad was pretty cool, and I loved the bit with Adar in Roslin's flashbacks. Besides, the episode was well written overall, especially the scene with Helo and Adama in the hallway. Does this excuse bad plot points that fly in the face of continuity and practically insult our intelligence? Certainly not. But I don't know if it ''sucked''. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 20:07, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:''THANK YOU!'' Somebody finally said it. Yes, Peter. This was bad. A big part of BG's allure is it's deft sidestepping of expected plot devices and its commitment to fashion realistic situations. This thing (Uatu shakes his head) was drenched in deus et machina. I, for one, don't believe Roslin should have been cured -- ''ever''. I like the character but I liked my real life friend who died also. I'm also getting a little tired of the Colonials winning so many battles against a supposedly superior enemy. It's high time, in my opinion, for the fleet to get one good, solid a** kicking. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 22:48, 21 January 2006 (EST)

: I think there was a lot of hooplah over this episode, mainly because people claimed we would get to meet the person Six was talking to after Baltar left. However, yes, this episode was a downer. It wasn't a bad 45 minutes of television -- in comparison to wha t is out there in the cesspool of American television -- but it wasn't the best. Actually, I think much of the Cylon peace group plot line just happened far too quickly for my taste. Also, why was Sharon stupid enough to smash her head into the glass in her cell? (Also, what is the idea of putting glass inside the cell and putting the bars on the side of the observation corridor? Gee, must be a Jammer design...) Hopefully we don't see the like of ''Epiphanies'' again... Battlestar is just too good to go down to that level. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I had to go one step further and detail ''why'' the show sucked in the Analysis section. Do add anything else you saw as well. The Helo/Tyrol punishment didn't bother me (else, Tigh would be in irons, too ([[Resistance]])). Things were wrapped up far too quickly. And there's NO WAY that Gina can hide on that ship or be supported like that. At least, I can hardly believe it. And here she was with glasses on. For what? So her "secret identity" would be hidden? Gods...and since I was late to see it aired, I actually ''bought'' this one from iTunes. Oh, well. As Joe, said, the worst of "Battlestar" is better than other show's supposed best. Still, to take a joke from Emo Phillips: If we watched this episode while flying on an airliner, we would have to open a window to equalize the suckage. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:21, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:LOL! Oh the pain! --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:17, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Guys, other than the six months issue (which actually ''started'' in Resurrection Ship, Part I), From what I've heard this isn't all that bad. Good points though Farago. I'm going to see the episode monday night when it reruns, I'd just like to point out that '''I am a genetics major''', and I'm going to pause on all of Baltar's notes to do a full write up of what exactly he's talking about, whether it's feasible/coherent with current works, etc. etc. More to follow. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:03, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::I only caught acts II & III of the episode, and yes, it's a pretty incredible "cure". As a Medical Technology graduate, I'm also going to be reviewing how the cylon cells are able to remove the cells so efficiently. I'm also curious after her seizure and stoppage how Laura was able to start back up again (without assistance). Curiouser and curiouser... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 15:41, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::While admittedly good, none of the above points were mine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:12, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:After the wonderful Resurrection Ship series, it is almost impossible to follow up with equal quality. I think some of the essential premises of this episode were good - militant peace movement, Roslin's rash decisions in the face of death and subsequent resurgence by cylon blood, Baltar being the consummate scientist always doodingly and 'tinkering', Gina finding a hiding place among the peace movement - I think this episode failed more in the execution of these plot premises. Ron Moore sometimes gets too much "Oh, nobody cares about the tech talk. Let's just tell the story" which does make BSG sooo much better than any other scifi, but here he went too far. It is obvious this episode was designed purely to move the story along and pave the way for future episodes, so I enjoyed watching it for that even while I was growning from the inconsistencies. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 11:10, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:I enjoyed it, but that could be because I was so happy to have a new episode of BSG on my birthday (1/20 btw). --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 12:21, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:Yeah I agree it wasn't the best episode, but it could have been worse, especially if it was another series trying to do the same thing. Although Ron Moore didn't mention it, do you think the episode was one of those ones made to save on budget due to Ressurrection and later episodes? I just think the episode was trying to cover too much in too little time and so things, in this case being Roslin's cancer, ended up being rushed. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 18:41, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:Oh, and I got to say that one upside neat thing of this episode was the machine shop scene because it was so very...un-scifi and very real-world.[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 16:25, 23 January 2006 (EST)

==Cancer Therapy==
I've studied some immunology, so I'm just going to talk briefly about this Cylon Blood business.

*There are two ways to attack a cancer cell.
**Chemotherapy, radiation therapy, and nucleoside analogues specifically target cells that are dividing very quickly. This will generally include cancerous growths, but will also target cells that are rapidly dividing by nature, such as hair.
**The body also maintains a set of [[Wikipedia:Cytotoxic T cell|Cytotoxic T cell]]s. These are basically trained to recognize what the antigens of a "normal" body cell looks like, and, if it finds those normal antigens in combination with foreign antigens (either viral or cancerous in nature), signal the cell to commit [[Wikipedia:Apoptosis|Apoptosis]]

*Presumably, the Cylon fetus's blood's lack of "antigens" meant that it could be given to Roslin without inducing [[Wikipedia:Transplant rejection|Transplant rejection]].
**It should be noted that normal, O-type human blood shares this quality (at least as far as red blood cells are concerned).
**Complete lack of antigens on a cell, however, is a biological absurdity.

*Therefore, it seems as though Baltar made two assumptions: That the cylon immune system was more "robust" than a normal human's, and that (based on the lack of antigens) it could be transplanted or donated to Roslin, where the cylon immune cells would root out her disease.
**However, for the reasons above, immune cells which specifically target cancer must be "trained" by exposure to non-cancerous body cells. The Cylon cells would have no knowlege of what Roslin's non-cancerous cells were supposed to look like, so it wouldn't be able to distinguish them from the cancerous ones.
**Alternatively, if it identified cancer cells based on their replication rate, she should suffer side effects comparable to a severe round of chemotherapy or radiation therapy immediately afterwards.

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:55, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Do add your knowledge to the renamed [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] page..it will help my layman's knowledge a lot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:51, 22 January 2006 (EST)

I have to finish the podcast for Epiphanies. However, RDM states at point point that the finished episode is edited down to just say "the baby's blood", but the scenes they cut clearly explain he's using it's fetal blood STEM CELLS, and then gives a SCIENTIFIC explanation of what this will actually do (I haven't heard the whole thing). However, he thought something like the audience wouldn't understand it, he's afraid of what SOUNDS like technobabble (even when it's entirely accurate; remember how Star Trek: Voyager became obsessed with giving really accurate, but really longwinded science explanations?), and they were running low on time, etc. etc. I hope this info is still "canonical". I need to check on this. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:30, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:He says they contemplated it in the writer's room, but the idea didn't survive to filming. In any case, it still makes just as little sense. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::It's nice to hear that he may have been thinking of a plausable explanation, but we really can only go by what's on screen. We can't be sure something is cannon unless we see it, right? [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

==Guest Stars==
I don't remember Hot Dog being in this episode. What did he do? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:20, 24 January 2006 (EST)

*I have a tape so I copied the credits from the episode into the article. It's what they said on screen. I was a little confused, but the way I see it, he's usually in the backround without lines in a lot of episodes, or maybe a minor 20 second scene was cut. Happens all the time. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:36, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== Bomb Use Spoiler ==

Ricimer, could you cite the spoiler source you have in that the bomb does function as a nuclear device and is detonated? I decided to remove your spoiltext since it was unsourced and I could find no mention of the bomb's use on our future episode pages. The magnitude of a nuke blowing up a ship in the Fleet would cause catastrophic damage to many, many ships...although I can see Pegasus meeting its end that way... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:44, 24 January 2006 (EST)

* It was mentioned at the end of the podcast that the bomb story-line would come to a head in the final two episodes of this season. -- [[User:rexpop|rexpop]] 18:50, 24 January 2006 (EST)

Just a thought on the question of the Nuclear Warhead vs. the Radiological Detection devices. In the Episode "33" the Radiological Alarm isn't raised until the Olympic Carrier starts her suicide run at Galactica. One can infer from this that the Nukes used in the series don't eminate signifigant amounts of radition to set off the alarms until the warhead is actually armed... One should also note that we have never seen Baltar (or anyone else for that matter) wearing any sort of protective clothing for dealing with Radioactive Materials. One would think if the warhead in question where indeed leaking rad's left and right that this precaution would have been taken.
Since it doesn't appear to have been neccessary , its somewhat plausible that the radiation is well shielded until the weapon is armed.
Given the Colonials ability to travel at Faster Than Light Speeds...and use of the material Tillium as fuel...that their "Nukes" are of signifigantly more advanced design than our own current arsenal. We don't really know what the fissial material is...and the one device we have seen is certainly much smaller than conventional Nukes.
just my 2 cents.--Strato
:A)I agree entirely with your reasoning about why they wouldn't be able to detect it because we've seen bombs go undetected before (or at least presumed undetected in "Flesh and Bone"), they could just not be armed yet, and they could be shielded. I've listed all of this off myself at one time or another. B) Actually, we know exactly what their fissionable material is: in "[[Bastille Day]]" they stated that it is [[Plutonium]]. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:23, 30 January 2006 (EST)
::Just to note, there was never a nuke in "Flesh and Bone", which explains why they never found one. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:24, 30 January 2006 (EST)
:::Well my point was, they didn't ''know'' there wasn't one: if they can just flick a switch and scan the ENTIRE Fleet at once, they would have done so and said "nope, no bomb"; instead they were searching for hours. This demonstrates that they don't have a comprehensive, all-encompassing radiation-scan system. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:37, 30 January 2006 (EST)
:Strato, I see where you're coming from, but I think if you'll stop to think about how a nuclear device is constructed, and how a geiger counter works, you'll see that it makes no sense - "arming" a nuke wouldn't change its radiation profile in any way, since the fissile material (uraniun or plutonium) and the fusion trigger (tritium, if present) are constantly emitting radiation in a passive manner. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:24, 30 January 2006 (EST)
Again...I was infering that the design of the weapon itself might allow for more radition leakage once the warhead is armed (say for example, opening up a rad shielded compartment) based on the assuption that the "Nukes" in BSG aren' t designed the same way as most modern nuclear weapons .
This same line of thinking can be applied to the "Radioligical Alarms" in "33" vs conventional Gieiger Counters. We can assume physical laws still apply...but a Civiliatzation that can fold space as casually as the Colonials do has probably come up with some interesting variant solutions to problems than we have at our disposal. A better question to me, instead of asking why the Rad Alarms didn't go off when Jahee leaves with the Nuke (odds are they don't have the devices installed in the landing bay since this isn't a commercial Airport under the U.S. D.O.H.S./TSA)...the better question is, why is it that if Jahee didn't show up with a suitcase, that the Marines escorting him didn't notice or seem to care that he suddenly had a HUGE suitcase upon leaving Galactica? -- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

:I'm sorry, that still makes no sense. The entire purpose of using nukes in the series is that they are something from the real world, and thus, scary — as such, they must obey the laws of the real world from which they are borrowed. BSG is a show which strives for realism, and I am unwilling to make excuses for it by inventing nonsensical "arming" procedures which have no plausible basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:28, 6 February 2006 (EST)

What about the "Rad Buffers" Chief Tyrol mentions in the Mini-Series? When Commander(now Admiral) Adama sends Starbuck down to the Starboard Flight Pod to prep the Viper MkII's for flight... Starbuck asks Tyrol if "these things will fly" and Tyrol tells her that "The Reactors are still hot, we just need to pull the Rad Buffers" etc. That implies to me that they have the ability to contain radition to some degree. I don't see why if you buy that the Colonials "Radiological Alarms" can pick up free radiation from small missle nuclear warheads like the one that hit the Port Flight Pod in the miniseries THAT Quickly from THAT long a range (never mind any other technical aspect of the show) that suspending ones disbelief in this case should be an issue.-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

== Roslin as a Cylon ==

Gmusser wrote:
:''True, it wasn't precisely the same scene, but nonetheless it was very close in time and location. We need to consider that Roslin was the person whom Six met in the miniseries and add her to the list of [[Humano-Cylon]] Speculated Infiltrators.''

I'm not even sure how to respond to this, other than by noting that I find this line of speculation completely absurd. Many things in the universe are possible, but not all of them deserve a line on the episode guide. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:19, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:Agreed. Anyone in a population of billions could have been meeting with Six, and this guy just jumps to saying "we have to face the real possibility that it was Roslin"?? Shot in the dark. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:29, 28 January 2006 (EST)

It wasn't Rosalin. Were she a Humano-Cylon she wouldn't have had breast cancer in the first place.-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

Talk:Epiphanies/Archive 1

2006-02-07T15:59:17Z

Strato: /* Bomb Use Spoiler */

Talk:Epiphanies/Archive 1

2006-02-06T22:26:22Z

Strato: /* Bomb Use Spoiler */

I got the title of episode 2.12 from: [http://www.galacticastation.com/Galactica%20Station/episodes/Ep%20header%20img/S2/s2guide.htm Galactica Station]. I'd put the info in an Episode Guide Template but have yet to figure it out. Please if anyone doesn't mind teaching me how to use templates I'd like to know. Please leave the advice on my talk page.--Zareck Rocks 01:40, 18 September 2005 (EDT)
:Looks fascinating, Z. I was wondering if they would really let Roslin's character just die off when she's hitting her stride...at the same time, I was hoping they wouldn't, since cancer is cancer and, when as nasty as hers, is a fatal thing. But, the Cylons are good at bioengineering, so I can swallow this--to a point. Baltar's fix would have to rebuild damaged areas with good cells as well as destroying bad cells. Hey, I'm no doctor, but that's gotta hurt somehow. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:59, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
::Current speculation is that her disease is delayed, not cured, and that she'll again be near death by the end of the season. I don't have any source on that though. The notion of the amazing Dr. Baltar discovering a ''cure for cancer'' under the circumstances of the fleet is faintly ridiculous to me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:23, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
:: I wouldn't be surprised if there were some nasty side effects from whatever treatment Baltar (or whomever) devised. The whole "we have a cure for cancer" thing would go outside the boundaries of believability and realism, which Moore and crew are aiming for. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:11, 22 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I'll agree that an outright cure for cancer is very implausible considering all the conditions the fleet is under. It would also undermine the whole prophecy that it seems that the fleet is following. Yes Cylon biotech is advanced, but the colonials barely understand it at all. I could accept them finding a treatment that buys Roslin more time, but only as long as it's clear that it isn't a permament cure. --[[User:Wingsandsword|Wingsandsword]] 12:32, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

::: I'd say that was resolved, although it was a bit of a stretch...[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 23:18, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::: Rather eloquently stretched, at that. Seems like Cylon blood is a rather hardcore Chemo series, killing off the currently detectable malignancies. The root cause of the cancer is most likely still there, and working to re-proliferate through Roslin's system. As soon as the Cylon blood is processed and removed from her bloodstream, it should more than likely come back in full force (Which, unless I'm mistaken, takes roughly 120 days). --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 23:48, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: I put removed from her system, and not a cure on the page.--[[User:Shane|Shane]] 23:32, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: After listening to Ron Moore's blog, he is mentioning that Laura's character is too important for him to put on the sidelines for an illness. His initial plan was that she got weaker throughout the whole series, but felt that he didn't want her stuck in a hospital chair or whatnot. Granted the whole religious thing they say, "is that a dying leader will lead the people to salvation" is still up in the air, and I'm interested in seeing where they take it, if anywhere. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 14:20, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::: I haven't listened to the blog yet, but is it conceivable that the Cylon blood treatment itself might sicken/kill Roslin again in the long run? Perhaps the cancer is permanently gone, as was suggested by Doc Cottle. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 14:46, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:::: I think that Ron Moore panicked with the whole cancer thing. My grandmother had cancer for 10 years before it finally took her life and it was only in the last 6 months that she became seriously incapacitated, and that was because it did go to her brain. Prior, she had it in both breasts and her lungs but with surgery and treatment was able to function normally. Now, I understand that Roslin doesn't have the benefit of treatment and surgery due to the circumstances, but this could have played out a lot longer without what he feared of her being invalid. But consequently, because cancer is not a virus but a deformation inherent to the individual, I can definitely see complications later on as a result of the cylon blood. Additionally, another issue I have is how they make Baltar to be a "General" Scientist when it was obvious that he was a computer scientist who wrote highly elaborate computer programs. Now they have him curing cancer. --[[User:straycat0|straycat0]] 10:46, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::: I don't have so much of a problem with Baltar knowing so much about science. It's true that it would lean somewhat towards a reviled science-fiction stereotype for him to be able to solve a problem about anything, but it's been established since very early on in the first season that Baltar is the resident Cylon expert, and this episode is simply a continuation of that role. He may have written computer programs too, but lots of scientists I know are adept at many forms of science--besides, it's all sort of interconnected. We also don't really see him talking much about physics (except that comment about enthalpy when blowing up the tylium refinery in "Hand of God," but every biochemist worth his salt would probably understand enthalpy anyway), so he seems confined to bio. And so long as he's not reconfiguring the plasma manifolds to increase the range of the FTL jumps or anything like that, I'll be okay. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 15:23, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Well, he's had six months to brush up on his cylon biology. I seriously doubt anyone's been needing him to write computer programs lately. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:36, 22 January 2006 (EST)

When Roslin wakes up after being injected with the Cylon blood, she points to Baltar and mumbles something. What did she say? Was it "You're the father."? I didn't quite catch it, because my neighbours decided to test their new sound system with "The Ace of Spades" at that exact moment! (May they rot in hell!) --Axminster 23 January 2006

:I wondered about that myself, so when it replayed again later that night, I muted it and let the closed caption run. All she said was "Dr. Baltar?". It could be wrong, though. --Jasonbondshow 25 January 2006

==Starbuck's Viper==
Can anyone get a look at the tail number on Starbuck's viper in the opening? It looks like 8757 to me, but it could also be the previously identified [[Viper 8737]]. She identifies herself with the three digit number 049. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:32, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:I'll check, I need to get back to my Viper Cataloguing project. First, though, I need to go through all the edits made while I couldn't access the page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:58, 21 January 2006 (EST)

==And By the Way==
I know this isn't really a discussion forum, but am I the only one who thought that this episode ''really sucked''? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:45, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:I haven't watched it yet; have it on tape. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:20, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:Thanks mostly to Roslin's miracle cure, but also to Helo and Tyrol back to work without even a whisper of a lesser charge/punishment against them, plus the sudden jump to six months after the Attack, I agree with you, Peter Farago. The only time I ever voted 2/10 on the offical website bulletin board. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 18:35, 21 January 2006 (EST).

:It certainly had some bad ''plot'' points, all of which have been stated. And I still think it would have been possible to do a cure without making it so contrived--of course it had to happen, but I don't know if it should have been the centerpiece of an episode, or at the very least needed to be resolved in the last five minutes of one. But the stuff with Baltar running around on Cloud 9 and drawing cell diagrams in his crazy notepad was pretty cool, and I loved the bit with Adar in Roslin's flashbacks. Besides, the episode was well written overall, especially the scene with Helo and Adama in the hallway. Does this excuse bad plot points that fly in the face of continuity and practically insult our intelligence? Certainly not. But I don't know if it ''sucked''. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 20:07, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:''THANK YOU!'' Somebody finally said it. Yes, Peter. This was bad. A big part of BG's allure is it's deft sidestepping of expected plot devices and its commitment to fashion realistic situations. This thing (Uatu shakes his head) was drenched in deus et machina. I, for one, don't believe Roslin should have been cured -- ''ever''. I like the character but I liked my real life friend who died also. I'm also getting a little tired of the Colonials winning so many battles against a supposedly superior enemy. It's high time, in my opinion, for the fleet to get one good, solid a** kicking. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 22:48, 21 January 2006 (EST)

: I think there was a lot of hooplah over this episode, mainly because people claimed we would get to meet the person Six was talking to after Baltar left. However, yes, this episode was a downer. It wasn't a bad 45 minutes of television -- in comparison to wha t is out there in the cesspool of American television -- but it wasn't the best. Actually, I think much of the Cylon peace group plot line just happened far too quickly for my taste. Also, why was Sharon stupid enough to smash her head into the glass in her cell? (Also, what is the idea of putting glass inside the cell and putting the bars on the side of the observation corridor? Gee, must be a Jammer design...) Hopefully we don't see the like of ''Epiphanies'' again... Battlestar is just too good to go down to that level. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I had to go one step further and detail ''why'' the show sucked in the Analysis section. Do add anything else you saw as well. The Helo/Tyrol punishment didn't bother me (else, Tigh would be in irons, too ([[Resistance]])). Things were wrapped up far too quickly. And there's NO WAY that Gina can hide on that ship or be supported like that. At least, I can hardly believe it. And here she was with glasses on. For what? So her "secret identity" would be hidden? Gods...and since I was late to see it aired, I actually ''bought'' this one from iTunes. Oh, well. As Joe, said, the worst of "Battlestar" is better than other show's supposed best. Still, to take a joke from Emo Phillips: If we watched this episode while flying on an airliner, we would have to open a window to equalize the suckage. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:21, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:LOL! Oh the pain! --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:17, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Guys, other than the six months issue (which actually ''started'' in Resurrection Ship, Part I), From what I've heard this isn't all that bad. Good points though Farago. I'm going to see the episode monday night when it reruns, I'd just like to point out that '''I am a genetics major''', and I'm going to pause on all of Baltar's notes to do a full write up of what exactly he's talking about, whether it's feasible/coherent with current works, etc. etc. More to follow. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:03, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::I only caught acts II & III of the episode, and yes, it's a pretty incredible "cure". As a Medical Technology graduate, I'm also going to be reviewing how the cylon cells are able to remove the cells so efficiently. I'm also curious after her seizure and stoppage how Laura was able to start back up again (without assistance). Curiouser and curiouser... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 15:41, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::While admittedly good, none of the above points were mine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:12, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:After the wonderful Resurrection Ship series, it is almost impossible to follow up with equal quality. I think some of the essential premises of this episode were good - militant peace movement, Roslin's rash decisions in the face of death and subsequent resurgence by cylon blood, Baltar being the consummate scientist always doodingly and 'tinkering', Gina finding a hiding place among the peace movement - I think this episode failed more in the execution of these plot premises. Ron Moore sometimes gets too much "Oh, nobody cares about the tech talk. Let's just tell the story" which does make BSG sooo much better than any other scifi, but here he went too far. It is obvious this episode was designed purely to move the story along and pave the way for future episodes, so I enjoyed watching it for that even while I was growning from the inconsistencies. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 11:10, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:I enjoyed it, but that could be because I was so happy to have a new episode of BSG on my birthday (1/20 btw). --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 12:21, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:Yeah I agree it wasn't the best episode, but it could have been worse, especially if it was another series trying to do the same thing. Although Ron Moore didn't mention it, do you think the episode was one of those ones made to save on budget due to Ressurrection and later episodes? I just think the episode was trying to cover too much in too little time and so things, in this case being Roslin's cancer, ended up being rushed. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 18:41, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:Oh, and I got to say that one upside neat thing of this episode was the machine shop scene because it was so very...un-scifi and very real-world.[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 16:25, 23 January 2006 (EST)

==Cancer Therapy==
I've studied some immunology, so I'm just going to talk briefly about this Cylon Blood business.

*There are two ways to attack a cancer cell.
**Chemotherapy, radiation therapy, and nucleoside analogues specifically target cells that are dividing very quickly. This will generally include cancerous growths, but will also target cells that are rapidly dividing by nature, such as hair.
**The body also maintains a set of [[Wikipedia:Cytotoxic T cell|Cytotoxic T cell]]s. These are basically trained to recognize what the antigens of a "normal" body cell looks like, and, if it finds those normal antigens in combination with foreign antigens (either viral or cancerous in nature), signal the cell to commit [[Wikipedia:Apoptosis|Apoptosis]]

*Presumably, the Cylon fetus's blood's lack of "antigens" meant that it could be given to Roslin without inducing [[Wikipedia:Transplant rejection|Transplant rejection]].
**It should be noted that normal, O-type human blood shares this quality (at least as far as red blood cells are concerned).
**Complete lack of antigens on a cell, however, is a biological absurdity.

*Therefore, it seems as though Baltar made two assumptions: That the cylon immune system was more "robust" than a normal human's, and that (based on the lack of antigens) it could be transplanted or donated to Roslin, where the cylon immune cells would root out her disease.
**However, for the reasons above, immune cells which specifically target cancer must be "trained" by exposure to non-cancerous body cells. The Cylon cells would have no knowlege of what Roslin's non-cancerous cells were supposed to look like, so it wouldn't be able to distinguish them from the cancerous ones.
**Alternatively, if it identified cancer cells based on their replication rate, she should suffer side effects comparable to a severe round of chemotherapy or radiation therapy immediately afterwards.

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:55, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Do add your knowledge to the renamed [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] page..it will help my layman's knowledge a lot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:51, 22 January 2006 (EST)

I have to finish the podcast for Epiphanies. However, RDM states at point point that the finished episode is edited down to just say "the baby's blood", but the scenes they cut clearly explain he's using it's fetal blood STEM CELLS, and then gives a SCIENTIFIC explanation of what this will actually do (I haven't heard the whole thing). However, he thought something like the audience wouldn't understand it, he's afraid of what SOUNDS like technobabble (even when it's entirely accurate; remember how Star Trek: Voyager became obsessed with giving really accurate, but really longwinded science explanations?), and they were running low on time, etc. etc. I hope this info is still "canonical". I need to check on this. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:30, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:He says they contemplated it in the writer's room, but the idea didn't survive to filming. In any case, it still makes just as little sense. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::It's nice to hear that he may have been thinking of a plausable explanation, but we really can only go by what's on screen. We can't be sure something is cannon unless we see it, right? [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

==Guest Stars==
I don't remember Hot Dog being in this episode. What did he do? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:20, 24 January 2006 (EST)

*I have a tape so I copied the credits from the episode into the article. It's what they said on screen. I was a little confused, but the way I see it, he's usually in the backround without lines in a lot of episodes, or maybe a minor 20 second scene was cut. Happens all the time. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:36, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== Bomb Use Spoiler ==

Ricimer, could you cite the spoiler source you have in that the bomb does function as a nuclear device and is detonated? I decided to remove your spoiltext since it was unsourced and I could find no mention of the bomb's use on our future episode pages. The magnitude of a nuke blowing up a ship in the Fleet would cause catastrophic damage to many, many ships...although I can see Pegasus meeting its end that way... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:44, 24 January 2006 (EST)

* It was mentioned at the end of the podcast that the bomb story-line would come to a head in the final two episodes of this season. -- [[User:rexpop|rexpop]] 18:50, 24 January 2006 (EST)

Just a thought on the question of the Nuclear Warhead vs. the Radiological Detection devices. In the Episode "33" the Radiological Alarm isn't raised until the Olympic Carrier starts her suicide run at Galactica. One can infer from this that the Nukes used in the series don't eminate signifigant amounts of radition to set off the alarms until the warhead is actually armed... One should also note that we have never seen Baltar (or anyone else for that matter) wearing any sort of protective clothing for dealing with Radioactive Materials. One would think if the warhead in question where indeed leaking rad's left and right that this precaution would have been taken.
Since it doesn't appear to have been neccessary , its somewhat plausible that the radiation is well shielded until the weapon is armed.
Given the Colonials ability to travel at Faster Than Light Speeds...and use of the material Tillium as fuel...that their "Nukes" are of signifigantly more advanced design than our own current arsenal. We don't really know what the fissial material is...and the one device we have seen is certainly much smaller than conventional Nukes.
just my 2 cents.--Strato
:A)I agree entirely with your reasoning about why they wouldn't be able to detect it because we've seen bombs go undetected before (or at least presumed undetected in "Flesh and Bone"), they could just not be armed yet, and they could be shielded. I've listed all of this off myself at one time or another. B) Actually, we know exactly what their fissionable material is: in "[[Bastille Day]]" they stated that it is [[Plutonium]]. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:23, 30 January 2006 (EST)
::Just to note, there was never a nuke in "Flesh and Bone", which explains why they never found one. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:24, 30 January 2006 (EST)
:::Well my point was, they didn't ''know'' there wasn't one: if they can just flick a switch and scan the ENTIRE Fleet at once, they would have done so and said "nope, no bomb"; instead they were searching for hours. This demonstrates that they don't have a comprehensive, all-encompassing radiation-scan system. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:37, 30 January 2006 (EST)
:Strato, I see where you're coming from, but I think if you'll stop to think about how a nuclear device is constructed, and how a geiger counter works, you'll see that it makes no sense - "arming" a nuke wouldn't change its radiation profile in any way, since the fissile material (uraniun or plutonium) and the fusion trigger (tritium, if present) are constantly emitting radiation in a passive manner. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:24, 30 January 2006 (EST)
Again...I was infering that the design of the weapon itself might allow for more radition leakage once the warhead is armed (say for example, opening up a rad shielded compartment) based on the assuption that the "Nukes" in BSG aren' t designed the same way as most modern nuclear weapons .
This same line of thinking can be applied to the "Radioligical Alarms" in "33" vs conventional Gieiger Counters. We can assume physical laws still apply...but a Civiliatzation that can fold space as casually as the Colonials do has probably come up with some interesting variant solutions to problems than we have at our disposal. A better question to me, instead of asking why the Rad Alarms didn't go off when Jahee leaves with the Nuke (odds are they don't have the devices installed in the landing bay since this isn't a commercial Airport under the U.S. D.O.H.S./TSA)...the better question is, why is it that if Jahee didn't show up with a suitcase, that the Marines escorting him didn't notice or seem to care that he suddenly had a HUGE suitcase upon leaving Galactica? -- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

== Roslin as a Cylon ==

Gmusser wrote:
:''True, it wasn't precisely the same scene, but nonetheless it was very close in time and location. We need to consider that Roslin was the person whom Six met in the miniseries and add her to the list of [[Humano-Cylon]] Speculated Infiltrators.''

I'm not even sure how to respond to this, other than by noting that I find this line of speculation completely absurd. Many things in the universe are possible, but not all of them deserve a line on the episode guide. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:19, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:Agreed. Anyone in a population of billions could have been meeting with Six, and this guy just jumps to saying "we have to face the real possibility that it was Roslin"?? Shot in the dark. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:29, 28 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Epiphanies/Archive 1

2006-02-06T22:24:58Z

Strato: /* Bomb Use Spoiler */

I got the title of episode 2.12 from: [http://www.galacticastation.com/Galactica%20Station/episodes/Ep%20header%20img/S2/s2guide.htm Galactica Station]. I'd put the info in an Episode Guide Template but have yet to figure it out. Please if anyone doesn't mind teaching me how to use templates I'd like to know. Please leave the advice on my talk page.--Zareck Rocks 01:40, 18 September 2005 (EDT)
:Looks fascinating, Z. I was wondering if they would really let Roslin's character just die off when she's hitting her stride...at the same time, I was hoping they wouldn't, since cancer is cancer and, when as nasty as hers, is a fatal thing. But, the Cylons are good at bioengineering, so I can swallow this--to a point. Baltar's fix would have to rebuild damaged areas with good cells as well as destroying bad cells. Hey, I'm no doctor, but that's gotta hurt somehow. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:59, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
::Current speculation is that her disease is delayed, not cured, and that she'll again be near death by the end of the season. I don't have any source on that though. The notion of the amazing Dr. Baltar discovering a ''cure for cancer'' under the circumstances of the fleet is faintly ridiculous to me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:23, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
:: I wouldn't be surprised if there were some nasty side effects from whatever treatment Baltar (or whomever) devised. The whole "we have a cure for cancer" thing would go outside the boundaries of believability and realism, which Moore and crew are aiming for. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:11, 22 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I'll agree that an outright cure for cancer is very implausible considering all the conditions the fleet is under. It would also undermine the whole prophecy that it seems that the fleet is following. Yes Cylon biotech is advanced, but the colonials barely understand it at all. I could accept them finding a treatment that buys Roslin more time, but only as long as it's clear that it isn't a permament cure. --[[User:Wingsandsword|Wingsandsword]] 12:32, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

::: I'd say that was resolved, although it was a bit of a stretch...[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 23:18, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::: Rather eloquently stretched, at that. Seems like Cylon blood is a rather hardcore Chemo series, killing off the currently detectable malignancies. The root cause of the cancer is most likely still there, and working to re-proliferate through Roslin's system. As soon as the Cylon blood is processed and removed from her bloodstream, it should more than likely come back in full force (Which, unless I'm mistaken, takes roughly 120 days). --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 23:48, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: I put removed from her system, and not a cure on the page.--[[User:Shane|Shane]] 23:32, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: After listening to Ron Moore's blog, he is mentioning that Laura's character is too important for him to put on the sidelines for an illness. His initial plan was that she got weaker throughout the whole series, but felt that he didn't want her stuck in a hospital chair or whatnot. Granted the whole religious thing they say, "is that a dying leader will lead the people to salvation" is still up in the air, and I'm interested in seeing where they take it, if anywhere. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 14:20, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::: I haven't listened to the blog yet, but is it conceivable that the Cylon blood treatment itself might sicken/kill Roslin again in the long run? Perhaps the cancer is permanently gone, as was suggested by Doc Cottle. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 14:46, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:::: I think that Ron Moore panicked with the whole cancer thing. My grandmother had cancer for 10 years before it finally took her life and it was only in the last 6 months that she became seriously incapacitated, and that was because it did go to her brain. Prior, she had it in both breasts and her lungs but with surgery and treatment was able to function normally. Now, I understand that Roslin doesn't have the benefit of treatment and surgery due to the circumstances, but this could have played out a lot longer without what he feared of her being invalid. But consequently, because cancer is not a virus but a deformation inherent to the individual, I can definitely see complications later on as a result of the cylon blood. Additionally, another issue I have is how they make Baltar to be a "General" Scientist when it was obvious that he was a computer scientist who wrote highly elaborate computer programs. Now they have him curing cancer. --[[User:straycat0|straycat0]] 10:46, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::: I don't have so much of a problem with Baltar knowing so much about science. It's true that it would lean somewhat towards a reviled science-fiction stereotype for him to be able to solve a problem about anything, but it's been established since very early on in the first season that Baltar is the resident Cylon expert, and this episode is simply a continuation of that role. He may have written computer programs too, but lots of scientists I know are adept at many forms of science--besides, it's all sort of interconnected. We also don't really see him talking much about physics (except that comment about enthalpy when blowing up the tylium refinery in "Hand of God," but every biochemist worth his salt would probably understand enthalpy anyway), so he seems confined to bio. And so long as he's not reconfiguring the plasma manifolds to increase the range of the FTL jumps or anything like that, I'll be okay. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 15:23, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Well, he's had six months to brush up on his cylon biology. I seriously doubt anyone's been needing him to write computer programs lately. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:36, 22 January 2006 (EST)

When Roslin wakes up after being injected with the Cylon blood, she points to Baltar and mumbles something. What did she say? Was it "You're the father."? I didn't quite catch it, because my neighbours decided to test their new sound system with "The Ace of Spades" at that exact moment! (May they rot in hell!) --Axminster 23 January 2006

:I wondered about that myself, so when it replayed again later that night, I muted it and let the closed caption run. All she said was "Dr. Baltar?". It could be wrong, though. --Jasonbondshow 25 January 2006

==Starbuck's Viper==
Can anyone get a look at the tail number on Starbuck's viper in the opening? It looks like 8757 to me, but it could also be the previously identified [[Viper 8737]]. She identifies herself with the three digit number 049. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:32, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:I'll check, I need to get back to my Viper Cataloguing project. First, though, I need to go through all the edits made while I couldn't access the page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:58, 21 January 2006 (EST)

==And By the Way==
I know this isn't really a discussion forum, but am I the only one who thought that this episode ''really sucked''? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:45, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:I haven't watched it yet; have it on tape. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:20, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:Thanks mostly to Roslin's miracle cure, but also to Helo and Tyrol back to work without even a whisper of a lesser charge/punishment against them, plus the sudden jump to six months after the Attack, I agree with you, Peter Farago. The only time I ever voted 2/10 on the offical website bulletin board. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 18:35, 21 January 2006 (EST).

:It certainly had some bad ''plot'' points, all of which have been stated. And I still think it would have been possible to do a cure without making it so contrived--of course it had to happen, but I don't know if it should have been the centerpiece of an episode, or at the very least needed to be resolved in the last five minutes of one. But the stuff with Baltar running around on Cloud 9 and drawing cell diagrams in his crazy notepad was pretty cool, and I loved the bit with Adar in Roslin's flashbacks. Besides, the episode was well written overall, especially the scene with Helo and Adama in the hallway. Does this excuse bad plot points that fly in the face of continuity and practically insult our intelligence? Certainly not. But I don't know if it ''sucked''. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 20:07, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:''THANK YOU!'' Somebody finally said it. Yes, Peter. This was bad. A big part of BG's allure is it's deft sidestepping of expected plot devices and its commitment to fashion realistic situations. This thing (Uatu shakes his head) was drenched in deus et machina. I, for one, don't believe Roslin should have been cured -- ''ever''. I like the character but I liked my real life friend who died also. I'm also getting a little tired of the Colonials winning so many battles against a supposedly superior enemy. It's high time, in my opinion, for the fleet to get one good, solid a** kicking. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 22:48, 21 January 2006 (EST)

: I think there was a lot of hooplah over this episode, mainly because people claimed we would get to meet the person Six was talking to after Baltar left. However, yes, this episode was a downer. It wasn't a bad 45 minutes of television -- in comparison to wha t is out there in the cesspool of American television -- but it wasn't the best. Actually, I think much of the Cylon peace group plot line just happened far too quickly for my taste. Also, why was Sharon stupid enough to smash her head into the glass in her cell? (Also, what is the idea of putting glass inside the cell and putting the bars on the side of the observation corridor? Gee, must be a Jammer design...) Hopefully we don't see the like of ''Epiphanies'' again... Battlestar is just too good to go down to that level. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I had to go one step further and detail ''why'' the show sucked in the Analysis section. Do add anything else you saw as well. The Helo/Tyrol punishment didn't bother me (else, Tigh would be in irons, too ([[Resistance]])). Things were wrapped up far too quickly. And there's NO WAY that Gina can hide on that ship or be supported like that. At least, I can hardly believe it. And here she was with glasses on. For what? So her "secret identity" would be hidden? Gods...and since I was late to see it aired, I actually ''bought'' this one from iTunes. Oh, well. As Joe, said, the worst of "Battlestar" is better than other show's supposed best. Still, to take a joke from Emo Phillips: If we watched this episode while flying on an airliner, we would have to open a window to equalize the suckage. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:21, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:LOL! Oh the pain! --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:17, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Guys, other than the six months issue (which actually ''started'' in Resurrection Ship, Part I), From what I've heard this isn't all that bad. Good points though Farago. I'm going to see the episode monday night when it reruns, I'd just like to point out that '''I am a genetics major''', and I'm going to pause on all of Baltar's notes to do a full write up of what exactly he's talking about, whether it's feasible/coherent with current works, etc. etc. More to follow. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:03, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::I only caught acts II & III of the episode, and yes, it's a pretty incredible "cure". As a Medical Technology graduate, I'm also going to be reviewing how the cylon cells are able to remove the cells so efficiently. I'm also curious after her seizure and stoppage how Laura was able to start back up again (without assistance). Curiouser and curiouser... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 15:41, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::While admittedly good, none of the above points were mine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:12, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:After the wonderful Resurrection Ship series, it is almost impossible to follow up with equal quality. I think some of the essential premises of this episode were good - militant peace movement, Roslin's rash decisions in the face of death and subsequent resurgence by cylon blood, Baltar being the consummate scientist always doodingly and 'tinkering', Gina finding a hiding place among the peace movement - I think this episode failed more in the execution of these plot premises. Ron Moore sometimes gets too much "Oh, nobody cares about the tech talk. Let's just tell the story" which does make BSG sooo much better than any other scifi, but here he went too far. It is obvious this episode was designed purely to move the story along and pave the way for future episodes, so I enjoyed watching it for that even while I was growning from the inconsistencies. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 11:10, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:I enjoyed it, but that could be because I was so happy to have a new episode of BSG on my birthday (1/20 btw). --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 12:21, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:Yeah I agree it wasn't the best episode, but it could have been worse, especially if it was another series trying to do the same thing. Although Ron Moore didn't mention it, do you think the episode was one of those ones made to save on budget due to Ressurrection and later episodes? I just think the episode was trying to cover too much in too little time and so things, in this case being Roslin's cancer, ended up being rushed. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 18:41, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:Oh, and I got to say that one upside neat thing of this episode was the machine shop scene because it was so very...un-scifi and very real-world.[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 16:25, 23 January 2006 (EST)

==Cancer Therapy==
I've studied some immunology, so I'm just going to talk briefly about this Cylon Blood business.

*There are two ways to attack a cancer cell.
**Chemotherapy, radiation therapy, and nucleoside analogues specifically target cells that are dividing very quickly. This will generally include cancerous growths, but will also target cells that are rapidly dividing by nature, such as hair.
**The body also maintains a set of [[Wikipedia:Cytotoxic T cell|Cytotoxic T cell]]s. These are basically trained to recognize what the antigens of a "normal" body cell looks like, and, if it finds those normal antigens in combination with foreign antigens (either viral or cancerous in nature), signal the cell to commit [[Wikipedia:Apoptosis|Apoptosis]]

*Presumably, the Cylon fetus's blood's lack of "antigens" meant that it could be given to Roslin without inducing [[Wikipedia:Transplant rejection|Transplant rejection]].
**It should be noted that normal, O-type human blood shares this quality (at least as far as red blood cells are concerned).
**Complete lack of antigens on a cell, however, is a biological absurdity.

*Therefore, it seems as though Baltar made two assumptions: That the cylon immune system was more "robust" than a normal human's, and that (based on the lack of antigens) it could be transplanted or donated to Roslin, where the cylon immune cells would root out her disease.
**However, for the reasons above, immune cells which specifically target cancer must be "trained" by exposure to non-cancerous body cells. The Cylon cells would have no knowlege of what Roslin's non-cancerous cells were supposed to look like, so it wouldn't be able to distinguish them from the cancerous ones.
**Alternatively, if it identified cancer cells based on their replication rate, she should suffer side effects comparable to a severe round of chemotherapy or radiation therapy immediately afterwards.

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:55, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Do add your knowledge to the renamed [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] page..it will help my layman's knowledge a lot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:51, 22 January 2006 (EST)

I have to finish the podcast for Epiphanies. However, RDM states at point point that the finished episode is edited down to just say "the baby's blood", but the scenes they cut clearly explain he's using it's fetal blood STEM CELLS, and then gives a SCIENTIFIC explanation of what this will actually do (I haven't heard the whole thing). However, he thought something like the audience wouldn't understand it, he's afraid of what SOUNDS like technobabble (even when it's entirely accurate; remember how Star Trek: Voyager became obsessed with giving really accurate, but really longwinded science explanations?), and they were running low on time, etc. etc. I hope this info is still "canonical". I need to check on this. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:30, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:He says they contemplated it in the writer's room, but the idea didn't survive to filming. In any case, it still makes just as little sense. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::It's nice to hear that he may have been thinking of a plausable explanation, but we really can only go by what's on screen. We can't be sure something is cannon unless we see it, right? [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

==Guest Stars==
I don't remember Hot Dog being in this episode. What did he do? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:20, 24 January 2006 (EST)

*I have a tape so I copied the credits from the episode into the article. It's what they said on screen. I was a little confused, but the way I see it, he's usually in the backround without lines in a lot of episodes, or maybe a minor 20 second scene was cut. Happens all the time. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:36, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== Bomb Use Spoiler ==

Ricimer, could you cite the spoiler source you have in that the bomb does function as a nuclear device and is detonated? I decided to remove your spoiltext since it was unsourced and I could find no mention of the bomb's use on our future episode pages. The magnitude of a nuke blowing up a ship in the Fleet would cause catastrophic damage to many, many ships...although I can see Pegasus meeting its end that way... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:44, 24 January 2006 (EST)

* It was mentioned at the end of the podcast that the bomb story-line would come to a head in the final two episodes of this season. -- [[User:rexpop|rexpop]] 18:50, 24 January 2006 (EST)

Just a thought on the question of the Nuclear Warhead vs. the Radiological Detection devices. In the Episode "33" the Radiological Alarm isn't raised until the Olympic Carrier starts her suicide run at Galactica. One can infer from this that the Nukes used in the series don't eminate signifigant amounts of radition to set off the alarms until the warhead is actually armed... One should also note that we have never seen Baltar (or anyone else for that matter) wearing any sort of protective clothing for dealing with Radioactive Materials. One would think if the warhead in question where indeed leaking rad's left and right that this precaution would have been taken.
Since it doesn't appear to have been neccessary , its somewhat plausible that the radiation is well shielded until the weapon is armed.
Given the Colonials ability to travel at Faster Than Light Speeds...and use of the material Tillium as fuel...that their "Nukes" are of signifigantly more advanced design than our own current arsenal. We don't really know what the fissial material is...and the one device we have seen is certainly much smaller than conventional Nukes.
just my 2 cents.--Strato
:A)I agree entirely with your reasoning about why they wouldn't be able to detect it because we've seen bombs go undetected before (or at least presumed undetected in "Flesh and Bone"), they could just not be armed yet, and they could be shielded. I've listed all of this off myself at one time or another. B) Actually, we know exactly what their fissionable material is: in "[[Bastille Day]]" they stated that it is [[Plutonium]]. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:23, 30 January 2006 (EST)
::Just to note, there was never a nuke in "Flesh and Bone", which explains why they never found one. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:24, 30 January 2006 (EST)
:::Well my point was, they didn't ''know'' there wasn't one: if they can just flick a switch and scan the ENTIRE Fleet at once, they would have done so and said "nope, no bomb"; instead they were searching for hours. This demonstrates that they don't have a comprehensive, all-encompassing radiation-scan system. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:37, 30 January 2006 (EST)
:Strato, I see where you're coming from, but I think if you'll stop to think about how a nuclear device is constructed, and how a geiger counter works, you'll see that it makes no sense - "arming" a nuke wouldn't change its radiation profile in any way, since the fissile material (uraniun or plutonium) and the fusion trigger (tritium, if present) are constantly emitting radiation in a passive manner. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:24, 30 January 2006 (EST)
Again...I was infering that the design of the weapon itself might allow for more radition leakag once the warhead is armed (say for example, opening up a rad shielded compartment) based on the assuption that the "Nukes" in BSG aren' t designed the same way as most modern nuclear weapons .
This same line of thinking can be applied to the "Radioligical Alarms" in "33" vs conventional Gieiger Counters. We can assume physical laws still apply...but a Civiliatzation that can fold space as casually as the Colonials do has probably come up with some interesting variant solutions to problems than we have at our disposal. A better question to me, instead of asking why the Rad Alarms didn't go off when Jahee leaves with the Nuke (odds are they don't have the devices installed in the landing bay since this is a commercial Airport under the U.S. D.O.H.S.)...the better question is, why is that if Jahee didn't show up with a suitcase, that the Marines escorting him didn't notice or seem to care that he suddenly had a HUGE suitcase upon leaving Galactica? -- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

== Roslin as a Cylon ==

Gmusser wrote:
:''True, it wasn't precisely the same scene, but nonetheless it was very close in time and location. We need to consider that Roslin was the person whom Six met in the miniseries and add her to the list of [[Humano-Cylon]] Speculated Infiltrators.''

I'm not even sure how to respond to this, other than by noting that I find this line of speculation completely absurd. Many things in the universe are possible, but not all of them deserve a line on the episode guide. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:19, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:Agreed. Anyone in a population of billions could have been meeting with Six, and this guy just jumps to saying "we have to face the real possibility that it was Roslin"?? Shot in the dark. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:29, 28 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Raptor/Archive 1

2006-02-06T22:14:00Z

Strato:

Raptor Armament?

In the Episode : "Fragged" we see a hovering Raptor use what appears to be a nose mounted "Vulcan" cannon of sorts to destroy a handfull of Cylon Centurions...
is there any info on this gun, and wether or not its standard for Raptors?---Posted by Strato

*That was not a Vulcan cannon. That was a stack of missles. We've never seen Raptors firing bullets, and only on this one occasion have we ever see them fire anything (missles). We're not even sure if they're normally loaded with ''weapons'' of any kind; they could just be loaded on special occasions. Raptors are a support craft, which does actually enter a combat zone, and although a multi-purpose vehicle it's ''primary'' mission profile as stated by Boomer in the Miniseris is "to fly ahead of a Viper squadron, use long range scanning equipment to '''scout''' for enemy targets, then Jump (using it's limited small FTL drive) behind the lines of the Vipers, fall back and provide electronic support". It's not really meant to engage stuff. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:51, 30 January 2006 (EST)

You are correct...went back and rewatched the DVD...for somereason I mistook the smoke trails from the missles as smoke from a vulcan cannon.
my bad. -- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

Talk:Scar/Archive 1

2006-02-06T22:11:22Z

Strato: /* Did they do it? */

I'd like to point out that the Template box at the bottom of each episode page is wrong: "Scar" comes before "Sacrifice", not after it. This needs to be fixed but I don't know how to do this. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:25, 6 January 2006 (EST)

== Plausible Parallel? ==
Is it possible that this episode is a parallel to the [[The Lost Warrior (TOS)|episode in TOS]] in which there is a mano-e-mano showdown between a Human and a Cylon? I'm curious as to the possibility that RDM is taking each of TOS's episodes and "outdoing" them, both in believeability, realism, and intensity.--Hawke

:Almost certainly not. There is no TOS Viper vs. Ace Raider thing. It's actually a staple of many scifi tv shows for several years; the "Red Baron" episode. The good guys are at war with another race, and the hero must go up against the enemy's ace pilot. Notably, "[[Wikipedia: Space:_Above_and_Beyond|Space: Above and Beyond]]" did this when McQueen took out the ace Chig pilot, Chiggy von Rictoffen (sarcastic nickname they came up with for him). Long story short, no this is not at all from TOS. This is a classic military story, one of those things that doesn't even need to be scifi. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:15, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:: Abandon all hope, Ricimer. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:07, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::'''The Gods don't want to [[You Can't Go Home Again|hear]] from Starbuck now. Because she's about to go out in that Viper and remove one of Their creations from Their universe. And when she gets back, she's going to drink a bottle of [[ambrosia]] as if it were Scar's frakking bio-mechanical blood, and celebrate his death! ''' -- [[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:14, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::Actually, it's funny that all the episodes that have been outdone were named after they were finished being written and the writers had no prior knowledge of the episodes they were homages to. I got this from the Battlestar Galactica Official Companion. BTW, I saw that Space ABove and Beyond ep and that;s what i thought of when I first heard of the Scar Raider. --Ltcrashdown 22:16, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::LOL! Just finished watching that episode, and it's one of the best lines ever from that series. Ricimer paraphrased it well. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 19:41, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::::Even when McQueen quotes the Iliad at Chiggy before he finishes him off? "''Looking darkly upon Hector, swift footed Achilles answered, 'I cannot forgive you. As there are no trustworthy oaths between men and lions, there can be no love between you and me. Before then to glut with his blood, Ares, the god who fights under the shield's guard. Now the time comes for you to be a spearman and a bold warrior. You will pay in a lump for all the sorrows of my companions you have killed in your spear's fury.'' None of that "mercy to our enemies" stuff, "Cylons can be people too" things, no; straightfoward revenge. :) --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:07, 4 February 2006 (EST)

==Did they do it?==

Ricimer, since I know you tape the episodes, I'll let you watch it again before removing that question. I think you'll agree with me that it's very clearly implied that Apollo stops things before they get that far. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:10, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:I actually watched this with several friends, and we got into a raging debate over whether this happened or not. About a third said no, a third said yes (including me), and a third said they weren't sure at all. It's sort of like how after "Pegasus", a lot of people were asking if Boomer got raped or not, because the editing was (intentionally) chaotic and confusing. However, we all know from the podcast of that that there were two versions and that was officially the "not raped" version.
:The podcast for this episode is ''vague''; he mentions only once the idea that "they'd get so drunk that they'd be in a state where they'd try to have sex with each other"--->OKAY, it wasn't quite that, but the point is he uses the word "try" in such a context (I listened to the podcast with friends) that after repeat listening...It didn't really give evidence one way or the other, plus these weren't the guys that directed it, etc. When *I* saw it, I got the ''impression'' that, through careful editing......frak. I can't put this more delicately forgive me. Frak. Well, to cut through it using Ad-libs; I thought that ''after Starbuck gets her panties pulled down, editing gets chaotic; Starbuck spreads her'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''and Apollo proceeds to'' _Verb_ ''her'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''with his own (conspicuous)'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''however Starbuck is proceeding too rough and really fast and Apollo keeps telling her to "slow down", which in context could mean *any number of things*. Starbuck then removes herself from the "presence" of his'' _Adverb_ _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''just as (off camera) he yanks his towel (or whatever) up, so when we actually see him in his first wideshot, he ''appears'' to have not removed his towel, when in reality he did but put it back off camera. ''--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:30, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::I really didn't find it at all ambiguous, and even if they did accomplish penetration extremely briefly, it's a crass thing to speculate about. The emotional consequences for Kara and Lee are the same regardless. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:23, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:::I am not being crass. I literally turned to the person next to me and said "Hey, wait a minute, did they just do it?" and no one was sure. It's not like I expect us to get any conclusive answeres based on analysis; I'm just saying "we're not sure"--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::::When I was watching it and Apollo had his hand on her ass, I turned to my friend and said, "It's about time" but I spoke too soon...--[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::: Keep in mind that the editing is chaotic enough that they start fooling around in the pilots lounge...and wind up going at it in one of the bunk rooms. I seriously doubt they got that far. My impression was that Apollo was working on foreplay...and Starbuck was rushing things...*shrug* in the end...who cares?-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

== Launch Gaffe ==

Was it just me, or when Starbuck and Kat launched from the ''Galactica'' in Viper VIIs, didn't the tube sequence show a Viper '''II'''?--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 02:21, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:Noticed this as well. Apparently the show has no stock footage of a Mk. VII launch sequence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:22, 4 February 2006 (EST)
::Unless they referred to Kat or Starbuck talking over wireless from within the launch tube, this could be explained as being the "other" Vipers flying on patrol for other parts of the asteroid belt.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:32, 4 February 2006 (EST)
:::Then it's a case of bad editing, as it implies (at least from how I saw it) that Kat's flying a II, as we saw Starbuck getting into a VII.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 02:35, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:::: I think what Ricimer means is that we can intnetionally misconstrue that as seeing someone ''else'' launching, even though, in actuality, it was an editing goof.--[[User:Day|Day]] 20:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::::Yes, we could, but it would be quite disingenuous to do so. I think we should call it the way it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:24, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::::: Well, depends on whether you want to start talking about how the Vipers changed appearances or whatever by assuming that the mistake makes canon. Anyway... I was just trying to clarify. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)

==You are all driving me mad==
Please, for the love of god, use the "edit" link on the section you are working on. This allows other editors to work on other sections without incurring edit collisions. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:37, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:This place is getting really busy lately. Collisions are becoming more frequent, even on talk pages. Not sure if there is long-term help for this (or any wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 5 February 2006 (EST)

==Props Given on... Old Props!==
Hey, did anyone else spot that [[Landram]] in the openning shot?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:31, 4 February 2006 (EST)
:I noticed it but didn't know what it was (not a TOS fan). Nice catch! --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 22:41, 4 February 2006 (EST)
::So that's what they were called! I remember seeing them, made me smile when I watched the episode a 2nd time. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

== Where did the music come from? ==

I swear that I have heard the background music before... It starts right at the end of "So say we all", and bleeds over through the workout scene. Where is it from, it is making me crazy?!?
: The Deer Hunter. Also, please sign your comments. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 15:05, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: You may sign your comments by using the a string of four tildes: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:04, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: Thank you so much for the origin of the music. It makes even more sense now... Yikes what tie ins this show sneaks in. ~~ LeslieW

== Picture ==

That's a cool pic and all, but it's already on the [[Scar (Raider)]] page, have the entire episode on my drive. I was trying to think of a scene that nicely summarized the whole episode, but I couldn't pick one. Any ideas on what I should take a cap of? --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 16:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:The first screen after Kat shoots him, immediately after his wing gets sheered off and there's a cloud of blood everywhere...but not TOO long after that, because as he crashes he gets so banged up that at the end you can't tell it's a Raider anymore; the FIRST shot, just as the wing comes off. Also, possibly one of Scar coming out of the sun just as Starbuck puts her finger up, or one of them fighting him with contrails coming off of their Vipers because of the dust. Upload a few and we'll pick. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:29, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I thought about the sun one, but it makes a poor cap. Here are the other two, plus one I thought was good as well:
::[[Image:Scar-Death.png|200px]] [[Image:Scar-Starbuck_Contrails.png|200px]] [[Image:Scar-Firing.png|200px]] 
::Any other ideas, lemme know. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 22:47, 5 February 2006 (EST)
:::I like the "Scar-Firing" picture, the right most one. It's easy to see without actually having to click on it. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:56, 5 February 2006 (EST)
::::That's my favorite as well. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:05, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::I hate to be picky, but: the one with contrails has the camera so far away that the Vipers look too small, "Scar Firing" is good, but for a character named "Scar" the pic is of his least "scarred" side of his head, and although I like the Scar-Death one, I think that out of context it might be confusing. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:06, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::::Why don't we use the "Scar firing" pic for this article, and leave the existing one alone on Scar (Raider)? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:10, 5 February 2006 (EST)

== In a Room Somewhere... ==

Don't you have the feeling that, in a room somewhere, Richard (Hatch) and Dirk (Benedict) are looking at each other after watching the "moment of drunken resolve" scene between their one-time characters, and... there is a ''very'' awkward silence. What do you suppose is going through their minds? :) -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 00:03, 6 February 2006 (EST)
:Nothing that they probably haven't read before in "slash" fan fiction about their characters before. Besides, Kirk/Spock stuff came (no pun intended) years before. It ''is'' a funny thing to imagine, though. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:14, 6 February 2006 (EST)
::For several years now, whenever I am at a convention where both Richard Hatch and Dirk Bennidict are guests...they seem to do their best to avoid even looking in each others direction.-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

== Kats Costume Change? ==

towards the end of the second act, we get the confrontation between Kat and Starbuck, where Kat punches Starbuck, just before Apollo comes in and orders them "Skids Up in 49 minutes."
At this point Kat is wearing her flight suit (well...half wearing it.)... next time we see her she is wearing her duty uniform (blues) walking through the memorial hallway, pining up the picture of "Beano"'s(?) girlfriend...then back in her flight suit about to jump in her viper.
Are we supposed to infer that this was her recollection/flashback while she was about to take off for her mission? or that with only 49 minutes to prepare for her C.A.P. she took the time to go change into her Blues...wander down to Memorial Hall...then go back..and resuit up for her C.A.P.?
-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

Talk:Scar/Archive 1

2006-02-06T22:10:56Z

Strato: /* Kats Costume Change? */

I'd like to point out that the Template box at the bottom of each episode page is wrong: "Scar" comes before "Sacrifice", not after it. This needs to be fixed but I don't know how to do this. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:25, 6 January 2006 (EST)

== Plausible Parallel? ==
Is it possible that this episode is a parallel to the [[The Lost Warrior (TOS)|episode in TOS]] in which there is a mano-e-mano showdown between a Human and a Cylon? I'm curious as to the possibility that RDM is taking each of TOS's episodes and "outdoing" them, both in believeability, realism, and intensity.--Hawke

:Almost certainly not. There is no TOS Viper vs. Ace Raider thing. It's actually a staple of many scifi tv shows for several years; the "Red Baron" episode. The good guys are at war with another race, and the hero must go up against the enemy's ace pilot. Notably, "[[Wikipedia: Space:_Above_and_Beyond|Space: Above and Beyond]]" did this when McQueen took out the ace Chig pilot, Chiggy von Rictoffen (sarcastic nickname they came up with for him). Long story short, no this is not at all from TOS. This is a classic military story, one of those things that doesn't even need to be scifi. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:15, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:: Abandon all hope, Ricimer. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:07, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::'''The Gods don't want to [[You Can't Go Home Again|hear]] from Starbuck now. Because she's about to go out in that Viper and remove one of Their creations from Their universe. And when she gets back, she's going to drink a bottle of [[ambrosia]] as if it were Scar's frakking bio-mechanical blood, and celebrate his death! ''' -- [[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:14, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::Actually, it's funny that all the episodes that have been outdone were named after they were finished being written and the writers had no prior knowledge of the episodes they were homages to. I got this from the Battlestar Galactica Official Companion. BTW, I saw that Space ABove and Beyond ep and that;s what i thought of when I first heard of the Scar Raider. --Ltcrashdown 22:16, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::LOL! Just finished watching that episode, and it's one of the best lines ever from that series. Ricimer paraphrased it well. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 19:41, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::::Even when McQueen quotes the Iliad at Chiggy before he finishes him off? "''Looking darkly upon Hector, swift footed Achilles answered, 'I cannot forgive you. As there are no trustworthy oaths between men and lions, there can be no love between you and me. Before then to glut with his blood, Ares, the god who fights under the shield's guard. Now the time comes for you to be a spearman and a bold warrior. You will pay in a lump for all the sorrows of my companions you have killed in your spear's fury.'' None of that "mercy to our enemies" stuff, "Cylons can be people too" things, no; straightfoward revenge. :) --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:07, 4 February 2006 (EST)

==Did they do it?==

Ricimer, since I know you tape the episodes, I'll let you watch it again before removing that question. I think you'll agree with me that it's very clearly implied that Apollo stops things before they get that far. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:10, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:I actually watched this with several friends, and we got into a raging debate over whether this happened or not. About a third said no, a third said yes (including me), and a third said they weren't sure at all. It's sort of like how after "Pegasus", a lot of people were asking if Boomer got raped or not, because the editing was (intentionally) chaotic and confusing. However, we all know from the podcast of that that there were two versions and that was officially the "not raped" version.
:The podcast for this episode is ''vague''; he mentions only once the idea that "they'd get so drunk that they'd be in a state where they'd try to have sex with each other"--->OKAY, it wasn't quite that, but the point is he uses the word "try" in such a context (I listened to the podcast with friends) that after repeat listening...It didn't really give evidence one way or the other, plus these weren't the guys that directed it, etc. When *I* saw it, I got the ''impression'' that, through careful editing......frak. I can't put this more delicately forgive me. Frak. Well, to cut through it using Ad-libs; I thought that ''after Starbuck gets her panties pulled down, editing gets chaotic; Starbuck spreads her'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''and Apollo proceeds to'' _Verb_ ''her'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''with his own (conspicuous)'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''however Starbuck is proceeding too rough and really fast and Apollo keeps telling her to "slow down", which in context could mean *any number of things*. Starbuck then removes herself from the "presence" of his'' _Adverb_ _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''just as (off camera) he yanks his towel (or whatever) up, so when we actually see him in his first wideshot, he ''appears'' to have not removed his towel, when in reality he did but put it back off camera. ''--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:30, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::I really didn't find it at all ambiguous, and even if they did accomplish penetration extremely briefly, it's a crass thing to speculate about. The emotional consequences for Kara and Lee are the same regardless. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:23, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:::I am not being crass. I literally turned to the person next to me and said "Hey, wait a minute, did they just do it?" and no one was sure. It's not like I expect us to get any conclusive answeres based on analysis; I'm just saying "we're not sure"--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::::When I was watching it and Apollo had his hand on her ass, I turned to my friend and said, "It's about time" but I spoke too soon...--[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::: Keep in mind that the editing is chaotic enough that they start fooling around in the pilots lounge...and wind up going at it in one of the bunk rooms. I seriously doubt they got that far. My impression was that Apollo was working on foreplay...and Starbuck was rushing things...*shrug* in the end...who cares?~Stratohead

== Launch Gaffe ==

Was it just me, or when Starbuck and Kat launched from the ''Galactica'' in Viper VIIs, didn't the tube sequence show a Viper '''II'''?--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 02:21, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:Noticed this as well. Apparently the show has no stock footage of a Mk. VII launch sequence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:22, 4 February 2006 (EST)
::Unless they referred to Kat or Starbuck talking over wireless from within the launch tube, this could be explained as being the "other" Vipers flying on patrol for other parts of the asteroid belt.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:32, 4 February 2006 (EST)
:::Then it's a case of bad editing, as it implies (at least from how I saw it) that Kat's flying a II, as we saw Starbuck getting into a VII.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 02:35, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:::: I think what Ricimer means is that we can intnetionally misconstrue that as seeing someone ''else'' launching, even though, in actuality, it was an editing goof.--[[User:Day|Day]] 20:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::::Yes, we could, but it would be quite disingenuous to do so. I think we should call it the way it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:24, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::::: Well, depends on whether you want to start talking about how the Vipers changed appearances or whatever by assuming that the mistake makes canon. Anyway... I was just trying to clarify. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)

==You are all driving me mad==
Please, for the love of god, use the "edit" link on the section you are working on. This allows other editors to work on other sections without incurring edit collisions. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:37, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:This place is getting really busy lately. Collisions are becoming more frequent, even on talk pages. Not sure if there is long-term help for this (or any wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 5 February 2006 (EST)

==Props Given on... Old Props!==
Hey, did anyone else spot that [[Landram]] in the openning shot?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:31, 4 February 2006 (EST)
:I noticed it but didn't know what it was (not a TOS fan). Nice catch! --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 22:41, 4 February 2006 (EST)
::So that's what they were called! I remember seeing them, made me smile when I watched the episode a 2nd time. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

== Where did the music come from? ==

I swear that I have heard the background music before... It starts right at the end of "So say we all", and bleeds over through the workout scene. Where is it from, it is making me crazy?!?
: The Deer Hunter. Also, please sign your comments. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 15:05, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: You may sign your comments by using the a string of four tildes: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:04, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: Thank you so much for the origin of the music. It makes even more sense now... Yikes what tie ins this show sneaks in. ~~ LeslieW

== Picture ==

That's a cool pic and all, but it's already on the [[Scar (Raider)]] page, have the entire episode on my drive. I was trying to think of a scene that nicely summarized the whole episode, but I couldn't pick one. Any ideas on what I should take a cap of? --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 16:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:The first screen after Kat shoots him, immediately after his wing gets sheered off and there's a cloud of blood everywhere...but not TOO long after that, because as he crashes he gets so banged up that at the end you can't tell it's a Raider anymore; the FIRST shot, just as the wing comes off. Also, possibly one of Scar coming out of the sun just as Starbuck puts her finger up, or one of them fighting him with contrails coming off of their Vipers because of the dust. Upload a few and we'll pick. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:29, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I thought about the sun one, but it makes a poor cap. Here are the other two, plus one I thought was good as well:
::[[Image:Scar-Death.png|200px]] [[Image:Scar-Starbuck_Contrails.png|200px]] [[Image:Scar-Firing.png|200px]] 
::Any other ideas, lemme know. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 22:47, 5 February 2006 (EST)
:::I like the "Scar-Firing" picture, the right most one. It's easy to see without actually having to click on it. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:56, 5 February 2006 (EST)
::::That's my favorite as well. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:05, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::I hate to be picky, but: the one with contrails has the camera so far away that the Vipers look too small, "Scar Firing" is good, but for a character named "Scar" the pic is of his least "scarred" side of his head, and although I like the Scar-Death one, I think that out of context it might be confusing. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:06, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::::Why don't we use the "Scar firing" pic for this article, and leave the existing one alone on Scar (Raider)? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:10, 5 February 2006 (EST)

== In a Room Somewhere... ==

Don't you have the feeling that, in a room somewhere, Richard (Hatch) and Dirk (Benedict) are looking at each other after watching the "moment of drunken resolve" scene between their one-time characters, and... there is a ''very'' awkward silence. What do you suppose is going through their minds? :) -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 00:03, 6 February 2006 (EST)
:Nothing that they probably haven't read before in "slash" fan fiction about their characters before. Besides, Kirk/Spock stuff came (no pun intended) years before. It ''is'' a funny thing to imagine, though. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:14, 6 February 2006 (EST)
::For several years now, whenever I am at a convention where both Richard Hatch and Dirk Bennidict are guests...they seem to do their best to avoid even looking in each others direction.-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

== Kats Costume Change? ==

towards the end of the second act, we get the confrontation between Kat and Starbuck, where Kat punches Starbuck, just before Apollo comes in and orders them "Skids Up in 49 minutes."
At this point Kat is wearing her flight suit (well...half wearing it.)... next time we see her she is wearing her duty uniform (blues) walking through the memorial hallway, pining up the picture of "Beano"'s(?) girlfriend...then back in her flight suit about to jump in her viper.
Are we supposed to infer that this was her recollection/flashback while she was about to take off for her mission? or that with only 49 minutes to prepare for her C.A.P. she took the time to go change into her Blues...wander down to Memorial Hall...then go back..and resuit up for her C.A.P.?
-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

Talk:Scar/Archive 1

2006-02-06T22:10:47Z

Strato: /* In a Room Somewhere... */

I'd like to point out that the Template box at the bottom of each episode page is wrong: "Scar" comes before "Sacrifice", not after it. This needs to be fixed but I don't know how to do this. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:25, 6 January 2006 (EST)

== Plausible Parallel? ==
Is it possible that this episode is a parallel to the [[The Lost Warrior (TOS)|episode in TOS]] in which there is a mano-e-mano showdown between a Human and a Cylon? I'm curious as to the possibility that RDM is taking each of TOS's episodes and "outdoing" them, both in believeability, realism, and intensity.--Hawke

:Almost certainly not. There is no TOS Viper vs. Ace Raider thing. It's actually a staple of many scifi tv shows for several years; the "Red Baron" episode. The good guys are at war with another race, and the hero must go up against the enemy's ace pilot. Notably, "[[Wikipedia: Space:_Above_and_Beyond|Space: Above and Beyond]]" did this when McQueen took out the ace Chig pilot, Chiggy von Rictoffen (sarcastic nickname they came up with for him). Long story short, no this is not at all from TOS. This is a classic military story, one of those things that doesn't even need to be scifi. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:15, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:: Abandon all hope, Ricimer. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:07, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::'''The Gods don't want to [[You Can't Go Home Again|hear]] from Starbuck now. Because she's about to go out in that Viper and remove one of Their creations from Their universe. And when she gets back, she's going to drink a bottle of [[ambrosia]] as if it were Scar's frakking bio-mechanical blood, and celebrate his death! ''' -- [[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:14, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::Actually, it's funny that all the episodes that have been outdone were named after they were finished being written and the writers had no prior knowledge of the episodes they were homages to. I got this from the Battlestar Galactica Official Companion. BTW, I saw that Space ABove and Beyond ep and that;s what i thought of when I first heard of the Scar Raider. --Ltcrashdown 22:16, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::LOL! Just finished watching that episode, and it's one of the best lines ever from that series. Ricimer paraphrased it well. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 19:41, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::::Even when McQueen quotes the Iliad at Chiggy before he finishes him off? "''Looking darkly upon Hector, swift footed Achilles answered, 'I cannot forgive you. As there are no trustworthy oaths between men and lions, there can be no love between you and me. Before then to glut with his blood, Ares, the god who fights under the shield's guard. Now the time comes for you to be a spearman and a bold warrior. You will pay in a lump for all the sorrows of my companions you have killed in your spear's fury.'' None of that "mercy to our enemies" stuff, "Cylons can be people too" things, no; straightfoward revenge. :) --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:07, 4 February 2006 (EST)

==Did they do it?==

Ricimer, since I know you tape the episodes, I'll let you watch it again before removing that question. I think you'll agree with me that it's very clearly implied that Apollo stops things before they get that far. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:10, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:I actually watched this with several friends, and we got into a raging debate over whether this happened or not. About a third said no, a third said yes (including me), and a third said they weren't sure at all. It's sort of like how after "Pegasus", a lot of people were asking if Boomer got raped or not, because the editing was (intentionally) chaotic and confusing. However, we all know from the podcast of that that there were two versions and that was officially the "not raped" version.
:The podcast for this episode is ''vague''; he mentions only once the idea that "they'd get so drunk that they'd be in a state where they'd try to have sex with each other"--->OKAY, it wasn't quite that, but the point is he uses the word "try" in such a context (I listened to the podcast with friends) that after repeat listening...It didn't really give evidence one way or the other, plus these weren't the guys that directed it, etc. When *I* saw it, I got the ''impression'' that, through careful editing......frak. I can't put this more delicately forgive me. Frak. Well, to cut through it using Ad-libs; I thought that ''after Starbuck gets her panties pulled down, editing gets chaotic; Starbuck spreads her'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''and Apollo proceeds to'' _Verb_ ''her'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''with his own (conspicuous)'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''however Starbuck is proceeding too rough and really fast and Apollo keeps telling her to "slow down", which in context could mean *any number of things*. Starbuck then removes herself from the "presence" of his'' _Adverb_ _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''just as (off camera) he yanks his towel (or whatever) up, so when we actually see him in his first wideshot, he ''appears'' to have not removed his towel, when in reality he did but put it back off camera. ''--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:30, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::I really didn't find it at all ambiguous, and even if they did accomplish penetration extremely briefly, it's a crass thing to speculate about. The emotional consequences for Kara and Lee are the same regardless. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:23, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:::I am not being crass. I literally turned to the person next to me and said "Hey, wait a minute, did they just do it?" and no one was sure. It's not like I expect us to get any conclusive answeres based on analysis; I'm just saying "we're not sure"--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::::When I was watching it and Apollo had his hand on her ass, I turned to my friend and said, "It's about time" but I spoke too soon...--[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::: Keep in mind that the editing is chaotic enough that they start fooling around in the pilots lounge...and wind up going at it in one of the bunk rooms. I seriously doubt they got that far. My impression was that Apollo was working on foreplay...and Starbuck was rushing things...*shrug* in the end...who cares?~Stratohead

== Launch Gaffe ==

Was it just me, or when Starbuck and Kat launched from the ''Galactica'' in Viper VIIs, didn't the tube sequence show a Viper '''II'''?--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 02:21, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:Noticed this as well. Apparently the show has no stock footage of a Mk. VII launch sequence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:22, 4 February 2006 (EST)
::Unless they referred to Kat or Starbuck talking over wireless from within the launch tube, this could be explained as being the "other" Vipers flying on patrol for other parts of the asteroid belt.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:32, 4 February 2006 (EST)
:::Then it's a case of bad editing, as it implies (at least from how I saw it) that Kat's flying a II, as we saw Starbuck getting into a VII.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 02:35, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:::: I think what Ricimer means is that we can intnetionally misconstrue that as seeing someone ''else'' launching, even though, in actuality, it was an editing goof.--[[User:Day|Day]] 20:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::::Yes, we could, but it would be quite disingenuous to do so. I think we should call it the way it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:24, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::::: Well, depends on whether you want to start talking about how the Vipers changed appearances or whatever by assuming that the mistake makes canon. Anyway... I was just trying to clarify. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)

==You are all driving me mad==
Please, for the love of god, use the "edit" link on the section you are working on. This allows other editors to work on other sections without incurring edit collisions. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:37, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:This place is getting really busy lately. Collisions are becoming more frequent, even on talk pages. Not sure if there is long-term help for this (or any wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 5 February 2006 (EST)

==Props Given on... Old Props!==
Hey, did anyone else spot that [[Landram]] in the openning shot?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:31, 4 February 2006 (EST)
:I noticed it but didn't know what it was (not a TOS fan). Nice catch! --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 22:41, 4 February 2006 (EST)
::So that's what they were called! I remember seeing them, made me smile when I watched the episode a 2nd time. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

== Where did the music come from? ==

I swear that I have heard the background music before... It starts right at the end of "So say we all", and bleeds over through the workout scene. Where is it from, it is making me crazy?!?
: The Deer Hunter. Also, please sign your comments. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 15:05, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: You may sign your comments by using the a string of four tildes: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:04, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: Thank you so much for the origin of the music. It makes even more sense now... Yikes what tie ins this show sneaks in. ~~ LeslieW

== Picture ==

That's a cool pic and all, but it's already on the [[Scar (Raider)]] page, have the entire episode on my drive. I was trying to think of a scene that nicely summarized the whole episode, but I couldn't pick one. Any ideas on what I should take a cap of? --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 16:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:The first screen after Kat shoots him, immediately after his wing gets sheered off and there's a cloud of blood everywhere...but not TOO long after that, because as he crashes he gets so banged up that at the end you can't tell it's a Raider anymore; the FIRST shot, just as the wing comes off. Also, possibly one of Scar coming out of the sun just as Starbuck puts her finger up, or one of them fighting him with contrails coming off of their Vipers because of the dust. Upload a few and we'll pick. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:29, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I thought about the sun one, but it makes a poor cap. Here are the other two, plus one I thought was good as well:
::[[Image:Scar-Death.png|200px]] [[Image:Scar-Starbuck_Contrails.png|200px]] [[Image:Scar-Firing.png|200px]] 
::Any other ideas, lemme know. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 22:47, 5 February 2006 (EST)
:::I like the "Scar-Firing" picture, the right most one. It's easy to see without actually having to click on it. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:56, 5 February 2006 (EST)
::::That's my favorite as well. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:05, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::I hate to be picky, but: the one with contrails has the camera so far away that the Vipers look too small, "Scar Firing" is good, but for a character named "Scar" the pic is of his least "scarred" side of his head, and although I like the Scar-Death one, I think that out of context it might be confusing. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:06, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::::Why don't we use the "Scar firing" pic for this article, and leave the existing one alone on Scar (Raider)? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:10, 5 February 2006 (EST)

== In a Room Somewhere... ==

Don't you have the feeling that, in a room somewhere, Richard (Hatch) and Dirk (Benedict) are looking at each other after watching the "moment of drunken resolve" scene between their one-time characters, and... there is a ''very'' awkward silence. What do you suppose is going through their minds? :) -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 00:03, 6 February 2006 (EST)
:Nothing that they probably haven't read before in "slash" fan fiction about their characters before. Besides, Kirk/Spock stuff came (no pun intended) years before. It ''is'' a funny thing to imagine, though. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:14, 6 February 2006 (EST)
::For several years now, whenever I am at a convention where both Richard Hatch and Dirk Bennidict are guests...they seem to do their best to avoid even looking in each others direction.-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

== Kats Costume Change? ==

towards the end of the second act, we get the confrontation between Kat and Starbuck, where Kat punches Starbuck, just before Apollo comes in and orders them "Skids Up in 49 minutes."
At this point Kat is wearing her flight suit (well...half wearing it.)... next time we see her she is wearing her duty uniform (blues) walking through the memorial hallway, pining up the picture of "Beano"'s(?) girlfriend...then back in her flight suit about to jump in her viper.
Are we supposed to infer that this was her recollection/flashback while she was about to take off for her mission? or that with only 49 minutes to prepare for her C.A.P. she took the time to go change into her Blues...wander down to Memorial Hall...then go back..and resuit up for her C.A.P.?

~Stratohead

Talk:Scar/Archive 1

2006-02-06T22:07:46Z

Strato: Kats Costume Change?

I'd like to point out that the Template box at the bottom of each episode page is wrong: "Scar" comes before "Sacrifice", not after it. This needs to be fixed but I don't know how to do this. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:25, 6 January 2006 (EST)

== Plausible Parallel? ==
Is it possible that this episode is a parallel to the [[The Lost Warrior (TOS)|episode in TOS]] in which there is a mano-e-mano showdown between a Human and a Cylon? I'm curious as to the possibility that RDM is taking each of TOS's episodes and "outdoing" them, both in believeability, realism, and intensity.--Hawke

:Almost certainly not. There is no TOS Viper vs. Ace Raider thing. It's actually a staple of many scifi tv shows for several years; the "Red Baron" episode. The good guys are at war with another race, and the hero must go up against the enemy's ace pilot. Notably, "[[Wikipedia: Space:_Above_and_Beyond|Space: Above and Beyond]]" did this when McQueen took out the ace Chig pilot, Chiggy von Rictoffen (sarcastic nickname they came up with for him). Long story short, no this is not at all from TOS. This is a classic military story, one of those things that doesn't even need to be scifi. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:15, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:: Abandon all hope, Ricimer. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:07, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::'''The Gods don't want to [[You Can't Go Home Again|hear]] from Starbuck now. Because she's about to go out in that Viper and remove one of Their creations from Their universe. And when she gets back, she's going to drink a bottle of [[ambrosia]] as if it were Scar's frakking bio-mechanical blood, and celebrate his death! ''' -- [[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:14, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::Actually, it's funny that all the episodes that have been outdone were named after they were finished being written and the writers had no prior knowledge of the episodes they were homages to. I got this from the Battlestar Galactica Official Companion. BTW, I saw that Space ABove and Beyond ep and that;s what i thought of when I first heard of the Scar Raider. --Ltcrashdown 22:16, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::LOL! Just finished watching that episode, and it's one of the best lines ever from that series. Ricimer paraphrased it well. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 19:41, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::::Even when McQueen quotes the Iliad at Chiggy before he finishes him off? "''Looking darkly upon Hector, swift footed Achilles answered, 'I cannot forgive you. As there are no trustworthy oaths between men and lions, there can be no love between you and me. Before then to glut with his blood, Ares, the god who fights under the shield's guard. Now the time comes for you to be a spearman and a bold warrior. You will pay in a lump for all the sorrows of my companions you have killed in your spear's fury.'' None of that "mercy to our enemies" stuff, "Cylons can be people too" things, no; straightfoward revenge. :) --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:07, 4 February 2006 (EST)

==Did they do it?==

Ricimer, since I know you tape the episodes, I'll let you watch it again before removing that question. I think you'll agree with me that it's very clearly implied that Apollo stops things before they get that far. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:10, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:I actually watched this with several friends, and we got into a raging debate over whether this happened or not. About a third said no, a third said yes (including me), and a third said they weren't sure at all. It's sort of like how after "Pegasus", a lot of people were asking if Boomer got raped or not, because the editing was (intentionally) chaotic and confusing. However, we all know from the podcast of that that there were two versions and that was officially the "not raped" version.
:The podcast for this episode is ''vague''; he mentions only once the idea that "they'd get so drunk that they'd be in a state where they'd try to have sex with each other"--->OKAY, it wasn't quite that, but the point is he uses the word "try" in such a context (I listened to the podcast with friends) that after repeat listening...It didn't really give evidence one way or the other, plus these weren't the guys that directed it, etc. When *I* saw it, I got the ''impression'' that, through careful editing......frak. I can't put this more delicately forgive me. Frak. Well, to cut through it using Ad-libs; I thought that ''after Starbuck gets her panties pulled down, editing gets chaotic; Starbuck spreads her'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''and Apollo proceeds to'' _Verb_ ''her'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''with his own (conspicuous)'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''however Starbuck is proceeding too rough and really fast and Apollo keeps telling her to "slow down", which in context could mean *any number of things*. Starbuck then removes herself from the "presence" of his'' _Adverb_ _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''just as (off camera) he yanks his towel (or whatever) up, so when we actually see him in his first wideshot, he ''appears'' to have not removed his towel, when in reality he did but put it back off camera. ''--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:30, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::I really didn't find it at all ambiguous, and even if they did accomplish penetration extremely briefly, it's a crass thing to speculate about. The emotional consequences for Kara and Lee are the same regardless. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:23, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:::I am not being crass. I literally turned to the person next to me and said "Hey, wait a minute, did they just do it?" and no one was sure. It's not like I expect us to get any conclusive answeres based on analysis; I'm just saying "we're not sure"--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::::When I was watching it and Apollo had his hand on her ass, I turned to my friend and said, "It's about time" but I spoke too soon...--[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::: Keep in mind that the editing is chaotic enough that they start fooling around in the pilots lounge...and wind up going at it in one of the bunk rooms. I seriously doubt they got that far. My impression was that Apollo was working on foreplay...and Starbuck was rushing things...*shrug* in the end...who cares?~Stratohead

== Launch Gaffe ==

Was it just me, or when Starbuck and Kat launched from the ''Galactica'' in Viper VIIs, didn't the tube sequence show a Viper '''II'''?--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 02:21, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:Noticed this as well. Apparently the show has no stock footage of a Mk. VII launch sequence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:22, 4 February 2006 (EST)
::Unless they referred to Kat or Starbuck talking over wireless from within the launch tube, this could be explained as being the "other" Vipers flying on patrol for other parts of the asteroid belt.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:32, 4 February 2006 (EST)
:::Then it's a case of bad editing, as it implies (at least from how I saw it) that Kat's flying a II, as we saw Starbuck getting into a VII.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 02:35, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:::: I think what Ricimer means is that we can intnetionally misconstrue that as seeing someone ''else'' launching, even though, in actuality, it was an editing goof.--[[User:Day|Day]] 20:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::::Yes, we could, but it would be quite disingenuous to do so. I think we should call it the way it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:24, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::::: Well, depends on whether you want to start talking about how the Vipers changed appearances or whatever by assuming that the mistake makes canon. Anyway... I was just trying to clarify. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)

==You are all driving me mad==
Please, for the love of god, use the "edit" link on the section you are working on. This allows other editors to work on other sections without incurring edit collisions. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:37, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:This place is getting really busy lately. Collisions are becoming more frequent, even on talk pages. Not sure if there is long-term help for this (or any wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 5 February 2006 (EST)

==Props Given on... Old Props!==
Hey, did anyone else spot that [[Landram]] in the openning shot?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:31, 4 February 2006 (EST)
:I noticed it but didn't know what it was (not a TOS fan). Nice catch! --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 22:41, 4 February 2006 (EST)
::So that's what they were called! I remember seeing them, made me smile when I watched the episode a 2nd time. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

== Where did the music come from? ==

I swear that I have heard the background music before... It starts right at the end of "So say we all", and bleeds over through the workout scene. Where is it from, it is making me crazy?!?
: The Deer Hunter. Also, please sign your comments. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 15:05, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: You may sign your comments by using the a string of four tildes: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:04, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: Thank you so much for the origin of the music. It makes even more sense now... Yikes what tie ins this show sneaks in. ~~ LeslieW

== Picture ==

That's a cool pic and all, but it's already on the [[Scar (Raider)]] page, have the entire episode on my drive. I was trying to think of a scene that nicely summarized the whole episode, but I couldn't pick one. Any ideas on what I should take a cap of? --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 16:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:The first screen after Kat shoots him, immediately after his wing gets sheered off and there's a cloud of blood everywhere...but not TOO long after that, because as he crashes he gets so banged up that at the end you can't tell it's a Raider anymore; the FIRST shot, just as the wing comes off. Also, possibly one of Scar coming out of the sun just as Starbuck puts her finger up, or one of them fighting him with contrails coming off of their Vipers because of the dust. Upload a few and we'll pick. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:29, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I thought about the sun one, but it makes a poor cap. Here are the other two, plus one I thought was good as well:
::[[Image:Scar-Death.png|200px]] [[Image:Scar-Starbuck_Contrails.png|200px]] [[Image:Scar-Firing.png|200px]] 
::Any other ideas, lemme know. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 22:47, 5 February 2006 (EST)
:::I like the "Scar-Firing" picture, the right most one. It's easy to see without actually having to click on it. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:56, 5 February 2006 (EST)
::::That's my favorite as well. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:05, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::I hate to be picky, but: the one with contrails has the camera so far away that the Vipers look too small, "Scar Firing" is good, but for a character named "Scar" the pic is of his least "scarred" side of his head, and although I like the Scar-Death one, I think that out of context it might be confusing. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:06, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::::Why don't we use the "Scar firing" pic for this article, and leave the existing one alone on Scar (Raider)? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:10, 5 February 2006 (EST)

== In a Room Somewhere... ==

Don't you have the feeling that, in a room somewhere, Richard (Hatch) and Dirk (Benedict) are looking at each other after watching the "moment of drunken resolve" scene between their one-time characters, and... there is a ''very'' awkward silence. What do you suppose is going through their minds? :) -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 00:03, 6 February 2006 (EST)
:Nothing that they probably haven't read before in "slash" fan fiction about their characters before. Besides, Kirk/Spock stuff came (no pun intended) years before. It ''is'' a funny thing to imagine, though. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:14, 6 February 2006 (EST)

== Kats Costume Change? ==

towards the end of the second act, we get the confrontation between Kat and Starbuck, where Kat punches Starbuck, just before Apollo comes in and orders them "Skids Up in 49 minutes."
At this point Kat is wearing her flight suit (well...half wearing it.)... next time we see her she is wearing her duty uniform (blues) walking through the memorial hallway, pining up the picture of "Beano"'s(?) girlfriend...then back in her flight suit about to jump in her viper.
Are we supposed to infer that this was her recollection/flashback while she was about to take off for her mission? or that with only 49 minutes to prepare for her C.A.P. she took the time to go change into her Blues...wander down to Memorial Hall...then go back..and resuit up for her C.A.P.?

~Stratohead

Talk:Scar/Archive 1

2006-02-06T21:59:32Z

Strato: /* Did they do it? */

I'd like to point out that the Template box at the bottom of each episode page is wrong: "Scar" comes before "Sacrifice", not after it. This needs to be fixed but I don't know how to do this. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:25, 6 January 2006 (EST)

== Plausible Parallel? ==
Is it possible that this episode is a parallel to the [[The Lost Warrior (TOS)|episode in TOS]] in which there is a mano-e-mano showdown between a Human and a Cylon? I'm curious as to the possibility that RDM is taking each of TOS's episodes and "outdoing" them, both in believeability, realism, and intensity.--Hawke

:Almost certainly not. There is no TOS Viper vs. Ace Raider thing. It's actually a staple of many scifi tv shows for several years; the "Red Baron" episode. The good guys are at war with another race, and the hero must go up against the enemy's ace pilot. Notably, "[[Wikipedia: Space:_Above_and_Beyond|Space: Above and Beyond]]" did this when McQueen took out the ace Chig pilot, Chiggy von Rictoffen (sarcastic nickname they came up with for him). Long story short, no this is not at all from TOS. This is a classic military story, one of those things that doesn't even need to be scifi. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:15, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:: Abandon all hope, Ricimer. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:07, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::'''The Gods don't want to [[You Can't Go Home Again|hear]] from Starbuck now. Because she's about to go out in that Viper and remove one of Their creations from Their universe. And when she gets back, she's going to drink a bottle of [[ambrosia]] as if it were Scar's frakking bio-mechanical blood, and celebrate his death! ''' -- [[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:14, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::Actually, it's funny that all the episodes that have been outdone were named after they were finished being written and the writers had no prior knowledge of the episodes they were homages to. I got this from the Battlestar Galactica Official Companion. BTW, I saw that Space ABove and Beyond ep and that;s what i thought of when I first heard of the Scar Raider. --Ltcrashdown 22:16, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::LOL! Just finished watching that episode, and it's one of the best lines ever from that series. Ricimer paraphrased it well. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 19:41, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::::Even when McQueen quotes the Iliad at Chiggy before he finishes him off? "''Looking darkly upon Hector, swift footed Achilles answered, 'I cannot forgive you. As there are no trustworthy oaths between men and lions, there can be no love between you and me. Before then to glut with his blood, Ares, the god who fights under the shield's guard. Now the time comes for you to be a spearman and a bold warrior. You will pay in a lump for all the sorrows of my companions you have killed in your spear's fury.'' None of that "mercy to our enemies" stuff, "Cylons can be people too" things, no; straightfoward revenge. :) --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:07, 4 February 2006 (EST)

==Did they do it?==

Ricimer, since I know you tape the episodes, I'll let you watch it again before removing that question. I think you'll agree with me that it's very clearly implied that Apollo stops things before they get that far. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:10, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:I actually watched this with several friends, and we got into a raging debate over whether this happened or not. About a third said no, a third said yes (including me), and a third said they weren't sure at all. It's sort of like how after "Pegasus", a lot of people were asking if Boomer got raped or not, because the editing was (intentionally) chaotic and confusing. However, we all know from the podcast of that that there were two versions and that was officially the "not raped" version.
:The podcast for this episode is ''vague''; he mentions only once the idea that "they'd get so drunk that they'd be in a state where they'd try to have sex with each other"--->OKAY, it wasn't quite that, but the point is he uses the word "try" in such a context (I listened to the podcast with friends) that after repeat listening...It didn't really give evidence one way or the other, plus these weren't the guys that directed it, etc. When *I* saw it, I got the ''impression'' that, through careful editing......frak. I can't put this more delicately forgive me. Frak. Well, to cut through it using Ad-libs; I thought that ''after Starbuck gets her panties pulled down, editing gets chaotic; Starbuck spreads her'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''and Apollo proceeds to'' _Verb_ ''her'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''with his own (conspicuous)'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''however Starbuck is proceeding too rough and really fast and Apollo keeps telling her to "slow down", which in context could mean *any number of things*. Starbuck then removes herself from the "presence" of his'' _Adverb_ _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''just as (off camera) he yanks his towel (or whatever) up, so when we actually see him in his first wideshot, he ''appears'' to have not removed his towel, when in reality he did but put it back off camera. ''--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:30, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::I really didn't find it at all ambiguous, and even if they did accomplish penetration extremely briefly, it's a crass thing to speculate about. The emotional consequences for Kara and Lee are the same regardless. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:23, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:::I am not being crass. I literally turned to the person next to me and said "Hey, wait a minute, did they just do it?" and no one was sure. It's not like I expect us to get any conclusive answeres based on analysis; I'm just saying "we're not sure"--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::::When I was watching it and Apollo had his hand on her ass, I turned to my friend and said, "It's about time" but I spoke too soon...--[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::: Keep in mind that the editing is chaotic enough that they start fooling around in the pilots lounge...and wind up going at it in one of the bunk rooms. I seriously doubt they got that far. My impression was that Apollo was working on foreplay...and Starbuck was rushing things...*shrug* in the end...who cares?~Stratohead

== Launch Gaffe ==

Was it just me, or when Starbuck and Kat launched from the ''Galactica'' in Viper VIIs, didn't the tube sequence show a Viper '''II'''?--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 02:21, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:Noticed this as well. Apparently the show has no stock footage of a Mk. VII launch sequence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:22, 4 February 2006 (EST)
::Unless they referred to Kat or Starbuck talking over wireless from within the launch tube, this could be explained as being the "other" Vipers flying on patrol for other parts of the asteroid belt.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:32, 4 February 2006 (EST)
:::Then it's a case of bad editing, as it implies (at least from how I saw it) that Kat's flying a II, as we saw Starbuck getting into a VII.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 02:35, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:::: I think what Ricimer means is that we can intnetionally misconstrue that as seeing someone ''else'' launching, even though, in actuality, it was an editing goof.--[[User:Day|Day]] 20:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::::Yes, we could, but it would be quite disingenuous to do so. I think we should call it the way it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:24, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::::: Well, depends on whether you want to start talking about how the Vipers changed appearances or whatever by assuming that the mistake makes canon. Anyway... I was just trying to clarify. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)

==You are all driving me mad==
Please, for the love of god, use the "edit" link on the section you are working on. This allows other editors to work on other sections without incurring edit collisions. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:37, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:This place is getting really busy lately. Collisions are becoming more frequent, even on talk pages. Not sure if there is long-term help for this (or any wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 5 February 2006 (EST)

==Props Given on... Old Props!==
Hey, did anyone else spot that [[Landram]] in the openning shot?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:31, 4 February 2006 (EST)
:I noticed it but didn't know what it was (not a TOS fan). Nice catch! --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 22:41, 4 February 2006 (EST)
::So that's what they were called! I remember seeing them, made me smile when I watched the episode a 2nd time. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

== Where did the music come from? ==

I swear that I have heard the background music before... It starts right at the end of "So say we all", and bleeds over through the workout scene. Where is it from, it is making me crazy?!?
: The Deer Hunter. Also, please sign your comments. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 15:05, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: You may sign your comments by using the a string of four tildes: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:04, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: Thank you so much for the origin of the music. It makes even more sense now... Yikes what tie ins this show sneaks in. ~~ LeslieW

== Picture ==

That's a cool pic and all, but it's already on the [[Scar (Raider)]] page, have the entire episode on my drive. I was trying to think of a scene that nicely summarized the whole episode, but I couldn't pick one. Any ideas on what I should take a cap of? --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 16:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:The first screen after Kat shoots him, immediately after his wing gets sheered off and there's a cloud of blood everywhere...but not TOO long after that, because as he crashes he gets so banged up that at the end you can't tell it's a Raider anymore; the FIRST shot, just as the wing comes off. Also, possibly one of Scar coming out of the sun just as Starbuck puts her finger up, or one of them fighting him with contrails coming off of their Vipers because of the dust. Upload a few and we'll pick. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:29, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I thought about the sun one, but it makes a poor cap. Here are the other two, plus one I thought was good as well:
::[[Image:Scar-Death.png|200px]] [[Image:Scar-Starbuck_Contrails.png|200px]] [[Image:Scar-Firing.png|200px]] 
::Any other ideas, lemme know. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 22:47, 5 February 2006 (EST)
:::I like the "Scar-Firing" picture, the right most one. It's easy to see without actually having to click on it. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:56, 5 February 2006 (EST)
::::That's my favorite as well. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:05, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::I hate to be picky, but: the one with contrails has the camera so far away that the Vipers look too small, "Scar Firing" is good, but for a character named "Scar" the pic is of his least "scarred" side of his head, and although I like the Scar-Death one, I think that out of context it might be confusing. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:06, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::::Why don't we use the "Scar firing" pic for this article, and leave the existing one alone on Scar (Raider)? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:10, 5 February 2006 (EST)

== In a Room Somewhere... ==

Don't you have the feeling that, in a room somewhere, Richard (Hatch) and Dirk (Benedict) are looking at each other after watching the "moment of drunken resolve" scene between their one-time characters, and... there is a ''very'' awkward silence. What do you suppose is going through their minds? :) -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 00:03, 6 February 2006 (EST)
:Nothing that they probably haven't read before in "slash" fan fiction about their characters before. Besides, Kirk/Spock stuff came (no pun intended) years before. It ''is'' a funny thing to imagine, though. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:14, 6 February 2006 (EST)

Talk:Scar/Archive 1

2006-02-06T21:57:48Z

Strato: /* Did they do it? */

I'd like to point out that the Template box at the bottom of each episode page is wrong: "Scar" comes before "Sacrifice", not after it. This needs to be fixed but I don't know how to do this. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:25, 6 January 2006 (EST)

== Plausible Parallel? ==
Is it possible that this episode is a parallel to the [[The Lost Warrior (TOS)|episode in TOS]] in which there is a mano-e-mano showdown between a Human and a Cylon? I'm curious as to the possibility that RDM is taking each of TOS's episodes and "outdoing" them, both in believeability, realism, and intensity.--Hawke

:Almost certainly not. There is no TOS Viper vs. Ace Raider thing. It's actually a staple of many scifi tv shows for several years; the "Red Baron" episode. The good guys are at war with another race, and the hero must go up against the enemy's ace pilot. Notably, "[[Wikipedia: Space:_Above_and_Beyond|Space: Above and Beyond]]" did this when McQueen took out the ace Chig pilot, Chiggy von Rictoffen (sarcastic nickname they came up with for him). Long story short, no this is not at all from TOS. This is a classic military story, one of those things that doesn't even need to be scifi. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:15, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:: Abandon all hope, Ricimer. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:07, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::'''The Gods don't want to [[You Can't Go Home Again|hear]] from Starbuck now. Because she's about to go out in that Viper and remove one of Their creations from Their universe. And when she gets back, she's going to drink a bottle of [[ambrosia]] as if it were Scar's frakking bio-mechanical blood, and celebrate his death! ''' -- [[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:14, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::Actually, it's funny that all the episodes that have been outdone were named after they were finished being written and the writers had no prior knowledge of the episodes they were homages to. I got this from the Battlestar Galactica Official Companion. BTW, I saw that Space ABove and Beyond ep and that;s what i thought of when I first heard of the Scar Raider. --Ltcrashdown 22:16, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::LOL! Just finished watching that episode, and it's one of the best lines ever from that series. Ricimer paraphrased it well. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 19:41, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::::Even when McQueen quotes the Iliad at Chiggy before he finishes him off? "''Looking darkly upon Hector, swift footed Achilles answered, 'I cannot forgive you. As there are no trustworthy oaths between men and lions, there can be no love between you and me. Before then to glut with his blood, Ares, the god who fights under the shield's guard. Now the time comes for you to be a spearman and a bold warrior. You will pay in a lump for all the sorrows of my companions you have killed in your spear's fury.'' None of that "mercy to our enemies" stuff, "Cylons can be people too" things, no; straightfoward revenge. :) --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:07, 4 February 2006 (EST)

==Did they do it?==

Ricimer, since I know you tape the episodes, I'll let you watch it again before removing that question. I think you'll agree with me that it's very clearly implied that Apollo stops things before they get that far. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:10, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:I actually watched this with several friends, and we got into a raging debate over whether this happened or not. About a third said no, a third said yes (including me), and a third said they weren't sure at all. It's sort of like how after "Pegasus", a lot of people were asking if Boomer got raped or not, because the editing was (intentionally) chaotic and confusing. However, we all know from the podcast of that that there were two versions and that was officially the "not raped" version.
:The podcast for this episode is ''vague''; he mentions only once the idea that "they'd get so drunk that they'd be in a state where they'd try to have sex with each other"--->OKAY, it wasn't quite that, but the point is he uses the word "try" in such a context (I listened to the podcast with friends) that after repeat listening...It didn't really give evidence one way or the other, plus these weren't the guys that directed it, etc. When *I* saw it, I got the ''impression'' that, through careful editing......frak. I can't put this more delicately forgive me. Frak. Well, to cut through it using Ad-libs; I thought that ''after Starbuck gets her panties pulled down, editing gets chaotic; Starbuck spreads her'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''and Apollo proceeds to'' _Verb_ ''her'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''with his own (conspicuous)'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''however Starbuck is proceeding too rough and really fast and Apollo keeps telling her to "slow down", which in context could mean *any number of things*. Starbuck then removes herself from the "presence" of his'' _Adverb_ _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''just as (off camera) he yanks his towel (or whatever) up, so when we actually see him in his first wideshot, he ''appears'' to have not removed his towel, when in reality he did but put it back off camera. ''--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:30, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::I really didn't find it at all ambiguous, and even if they did accomplish penetration extremely briefly, it's a crass thing to speculate about. The emotional consequences for Kara and Lee are the same regardless. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:23, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:::I am not being crass. I literally turned to the person next to me and said "Hey, wait a minute, did they just do it?" and no one was sure. It's not like I expect us to get any conclusive answeres based on analysis; I'm just saying "we're not sure"--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::::When I was watching it and Apollo had his hand on her ass, I turned to my friend and said, "It's about time" but I spoke too soon...--[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::: Keep in mind that the editing is chaotic enough that they start fooling around in the pilots lounge...and wind up going at it in one of the bunk rooms. I seriously doubt they got that far. My impression was that Apollo was working on foreplay...and Starbuck was rushing things...*shrug* in the end...who cares?

== Launch Gaffe ==

Was it just me, or when Starbuck and Kat launched from the ''Galactica'' in Viper VIIs, didn't the tube sequence show a Viper '''II'''?--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 02:21, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:Noticed this as well. Apparently the show has no stock footage of a Mk. VII launch sequence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:22, 4 February 2006 (EST)
::Unless they referred to Kat or Starbuck talking over wireless from within the launch tube, this could be explained as being the "other" Vipers flying on patrol for other parts of the asteroid belt.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:32, 4 February 2006 (EST)
:::Then it's a case of bad editing, as it implies (at least from how I saw it) that Kat's flying a II, as we saw Starbuck getting into a VII.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 02:35, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:::: I think what Ricimer means is that we can intnetionally misconstrue that as seeing someone ''else'' launching, even though, in actuality, it was an editing goof.--[[User:Day|Day]] 20:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::::Yes, we could, but it would be quite disingenuous to do so. I think we should call it the way it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:24, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::::: Well, depends on whether you want to start talking about how the Vipers changed appearances or whatever by assuming that the mistake makes canon. Anyway... I was just trying to clarify. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)

==You are all driving me mad==
Please, for the love of god, use the "edit" link on the section you are working on. This allows other editors to work on other sections without incurring edit collisions. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:37, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:This place is getting really busy lately. Collisions are becoming more frequent, even on talk pages. Not sure if there is long-term help for this (or any wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 5 February 2006 (EST)

==Props Given on... Old Props!==
Hey, did anyone else spot that [[Landram]] in the openning shot?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:31, 4 February 2006 (EST)
:I noticed it but didn't know what it was (not a TOS fan). Nice catch! --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 22:41, 4 February 2006 (EST)
::So that's what they were called! I remember seeing them, made me smile when I watched the episode a 2nd time. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

== Where did the music come from? ==

I swear that I have heard the background music before... It starts right at the end of "So say we all", and bleeds over through the workout scene. Where is it from, it is making me crazy?!?
: The Deer Hunter. Also, please sign your comments. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 15:05, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: You may sign your comments by using the a string of four tildes: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:04, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: Thank you so much for the origin of the music. It makes even more sense now... Yikes what tie ins this show sneaks in. ~~ LeslieW

== Picture ==

That's a cool pic and all, but it's already on the [[Scar (Raider)]] page, have the entire episode on my drive. I was trying to think of a scene that nicely summarized the whole episode, but I couldn't pick one. Any ideas on what I should take a cap of? --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 16:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:The first screen after Kat shoots him, immediately after his wing gets sheered off and there's a cloud of blood everywhere...but not TOO long after that, because as he crashes he gets so banged up that at the end you can't tell it's a Raider anymore; the FIRST shot, just as the wing comes off. Also, possibly one of Scar coming out of the sun just as Starbuck puts her finger up, or one of them fighting him with contrails coming off of their Vipers because of the dust. Upload a few and we'll pick. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:29, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I thought about the sun one, but it makes a poor cap. Here are the other two, plus one I thought was good as well:
::[[Image:Scar-Death.png|200px]] [[Image:Scar-Starbuck_Contrails.png|200px]] [[Image:Scar-Firing.png|200px]] 
::Any other ideas, lemme know. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 22:47, 5 February 2006 (EST)
:::I like the "Scar-Firing" picture, the right most one. It's easy to see without actually having to click on it. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:56, 5 February 2006 (EST)
::::That's my favorite as well. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:05, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::I hate to be picky, but: the one with contrails has the camera so far away that the Vipers look too small, "Scar Firing" is good, but for a character named "Scar" the pic is of his least "scarred" side of his head, and although I like the Scar-Death one, I think that out of context it might be confusing. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:06, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::::Why don't we use the "Scar firing" pic for this article, and leave the existing one alone on Scar (Raider)? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:10, 5 February 2006 (EST)

== In a Room Somewhere... ==

Don't you have the feeling that, in a room somewhere, Richard (Hatch) and Dirk (Benedict) are looking at each other after watching the "moment of drunken resolve" scene between their one-time characters, and... there is a ''very'' awkward silence. What do you suppose is going through their minds? :) -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 00:03, 6 February 2006 (EST)
:Nothing that they probably haven't read before in "slash" fan fiction about their characters before. Besides, Kirk/Spock stuff came (no pun intended) years before. It ''is'' a funny thing to imagine, though. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:14, 6 February 2006 (EST)

Talk:Raptor/Archive 1

2006-01-30T23:45:47Z

Strato:

Talk:Epiphanies/Archive 1

2006-01-30T18:59:36Z

Strato: /* Bomb Use Spoiler */

I got the title of episode 2.12 from: [http://www.galacticastation.com/Galactica%20Station/episodes/Ep%20header%20img/S2/s2guide.htm Galactica Station]. I'd put the info in an Episode Guide Template but have yet to figure it out. Please if anyone doesn't mind teaching me how to use templates I'd like to know. Please leave the advice on my talk page.--Zareck Rocks 01:40, 18 September 2005 (EDT)
:Looks fascinating, Z. I was wondering if they would really let Roslin's character just die off when she's hitting her stride...at the same time, I was hoping they wouldn't, since cancer is cancer and, when as nasty as hers, is a fatal thing. But, the Cylons are good at bioengineering, so I can swallow this--to a point. Baltar's fix would have to rebuild damaged areas with good cells as well as destroying bad cells. Hey, I'm no doctor, but that's gotta hurt somehow. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:59, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
::Current speculation is that her disease is delayed, not cured, and that she'll again be near death by the end of the season. I don't have any source on that though. The notion of the amazing Dr. Baltar discovering a ''cure for cancer'' under the circumstances of the fleet is faintly ridiculous to me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:23, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
:: I wouldn't be surprised if there were some nasty side effects from whatever treatment Baltar (or whomever) devised. The whole "we have a cure for cancer" thing would go outside the boundaries of believability and realism, which Moore and crew are aiming for. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:11, 22 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I'll agree that an outright cure for cancer is very implausible considering all the conditions the fleet is under. It would also undermine the whole prophecy that it seems that the fleet is following. Yes Cylon biotech is advanced, but the colonials barely understand it at all. I could accept them finding a treatment that buys Roslin more time, but only as long as it's clear that it isn't a permament cure. --[[User:Wingsandsword|Wingsandsword]] 12:32, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

::: I'd say that was resolved, although it was a bit of a stretch...[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 23:18, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::: Rather eloquently stretched, at that. Seems like Cylon blood is a rather hardcore Chemo series, killing off the currently detectable malignancies. The root cause of the cancer is most likely still there, and working to re-proliferate through Roslin's system. As soon as the Cylon blood is processed and removed from her bloodstream, it should more than likely come back in full force (Which, unless I'm mistaken, takes roughly 120 days). --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 23:48, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: I put removed from her system, and not a cure on the page.--[[User:Shane|Shane]] 23:32, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: After listening to Ron Moore's blog, he is mentioning that Laura's character is too important for him to put on the sidelines for an illness. His initial plan was that she got weaker throughout the whole series, but felt that he didn't want her stuck in a hospital chair or whatnot. Granted the whole religious thing they say, "is that a dying leader will lead the people to salvation" is still up in the air, and I'm interested in seeing where they take it, if anywhere. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 14:20, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::: I haven't listened to the blog yet, but is it conceivable that the Cylon blood treatment itself might sicken/kill Roslin again in the long run? Perhaps the cancer is permanently gone, as was suggested by Doc Cottle. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 14:46, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:::: I think that Ron Moore panicked with the whole cancer thing. My grandmother had cancer for 10 years before it finally took her life and it was only in the last 6 months that she became seriously incapacitated, and that was because it did go to her brain. Prior, she had it in both breasts and her lungs but with surgery and treatment was able to function normally. Now, I understand that Roslin doesn't have the benefit of treatment and surgery due to the circumstances, but this could have played out a lot longer without what he feared of her being invalid. But consequently, because cancer is not a virus but a deformation inherent to the individual, I can definitely see complications later on as a result of the cylon blood. Additionally, another issue I have is how they make Baltar to be a "General" Scientist when it was obvious that he was a computer scientist who wrote highly elaborate computer programs. Now they have him curing cancer. --[[User:straycat0|straycat0]] 10:46, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::: I don't have so much of a problem with Baltar knowing so much about science. It's true that it would lean somewhat towards a reviled science-fiction stereotype for him to be able to solve a problem about anything, but it's been established since very early on in the first season that Baltar is the resident Cylon expert, and this episode is simply a continuation of that role. He may have written computer programs too, but lots of scientists I know are adept at many forms of science--besides, it's all sort of interconnected. We also don't really see him talking much about physics (except that comment about enthalpy when blowing up the tylium refinery in "Hand of God," but every biochemist worth his salt would probably understand enthalpy anyway), so he seems confined to bio. And so long as he's not reconfiguring the plasma manifolds to increase the range of the FTL jumps or anything like that, I'll be okay. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 15:23, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Well, he's had six months to brush up on his cylon biology. I seriously doubt anyone's been needing him to write computer programs lately. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:36, 22 January 2006 (EST)

When Roslin wakes up after being injected with the Cylon blood, she points to Baltar and mumbles something. What did she say? Was it "You're the father."? I didn't quite catch it, because my neighbours decided to test their new sound system with "The Ace of Spades" at that exact moment! (May they rot in hell!) --Axminster 23 January 2006

:I wondered about that myself, so when it replayed again later that night, I muted it and let the closed caption run. All she said was "Dr. Baltar?". It could be wrong, though. --Jasonbondshow 25 January 2006

==Starbuck's Viper==
Can anyone get a look at the tail number on Starbuck's viper in the opening? It looks like 8757 to me, but it could also be the previously identified [[Viper 8737]]. She identifies herself with the three digit number 049. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:32, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:I'll check, I need to get back to my Viper Cataloguing project. First, though, I need to go through all the edits made while I couldn't access the page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:58, 21 January 2006 (EST)

==And By the Way==
I know this isn't really a discussion forum, but am I the only one who thought that this episode ''really sucked''? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:45, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:I haven't watched it yet; have it on tape. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:20, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:Thanks mostly to Roslin's miracle cure, but also to Helo and Tyrol back to work without even a whisper of a lesser charge/punishment against them, plus the sudden jump to six months after the Attack, I agree with you, Peter Farago. The only time I ever voted 2/10 on the offical website bulletin board. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 18:35, 21 January 2006 (EST).

:It certainly had some bad ''plot'' points, all of which have been stated. And I still think it would have been possible to do a cure without making it so contrived--of course it had to happen, but I don't know if it should have been the centerpiece of an episode, or at the very least needed to be resolved in the last five minutes of one. But the stuff with Baltar running around on Cloud 9 and drawing cell diagrams in his crazy notepad was pretty cool, and I loved the bit with Adar in Roslin's flashbacks. Besides, the episode was well written overall, especially the scene with Helo and Adama in the hallway. Does this excuse bad plot points that fly in the face of continuity and practically insult our intelligence? Certainly not. But I don't know if it ''sucked''. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 20:07, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:''THANK YOU!'' Somebody finally said it. Yes, Peter. This was bad. A big part of BG's allure is it's deft sidestepping of expected plot devices and its commitment to fashion realistic situations. This thing (Uatu shakes his head) was drenched in deus et machina. I, for one, don't believe Roslin should have been cured -- ''ever''. I like the character but I liked my real life friend who died also. I'm also getting a little tired of the Colonials winning so many battles against a supposedly superior enemy. It's high time, in my opinion, for the fleet to get one good, solid a** kicking. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 22:48, 21 January 2006 (EST)

: I think there was a lot of hooplah over this episode, mainly because people claimed we would get to meet the person Six was talking to after Baltar left. However, yes, this episode was a downer. It wasn't a bad 45 minutes of television -- in comparison to wha t is out there in the cesspool of American television -- but it wasn't the best. Actually, I think much of the Cylon peace group plot line just happened far too quickly for my taste. Also, why was Sharon stupid enough to smash her head into the glass in her cell? (Also, what is the idea of putting glass inside the cell and putting the bars on the side of the observation corridor? Gee, must be a Jammer design...) Hopefully we don't see the like of ''Epiphanies'' again... Battlestar is just too good to go down to that level. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I had to go one step further and detail ''why'' the show sucked in the Analysis section. Do add anything else you saw as well. The Helo/Tyrol punishment didn't bother me (else, Tigh would be in irons, too ([[Resistance]])). Things were wrapped up far too quickly. And there's NO WAY that Gina can hide on that ship or be supported like that. At least, I can hardly believe it. And here she was with glasses on. For what? So her "secret identity" would be hidden? Gods...and since I was late to see it aired, I actually ''bought'' this one from iTunes. Oh, well. As Joe, said, the worst of "Battlestar" is better than other show's supposed best. Still, to take a joke from Emo Phillips: If we watched this episode while flying on an airliner, we would have to open a window to equalize the suckage. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:21, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:LOL! Oh the pain! --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:17, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Guys, other than the six months issue (which actually ''started'' in Resurrection Ship, Part I), From what I've heard this isn't all that bad. Good points though Farago. I'm going to see the episode monday night when it reruns, I'd just like to point out that '''I am a genetics major''', and I'm going to pause on all of Baltar's notes to do a full write up of what exactly he's talking about, whether it's feasible/coherent with current works, etc. etc. More to follow. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:03, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::I only caught acts II & III of the episode, and yes, it's a pretty incredible "cure". As a Medical Technology graduate, I'm also going to be reviewing how the cylon cells are able to remove the cells so efficiently. I'm also curious after her seizure and stoppage how Laura was able to start back up again (without assistance). Curiouser and curiouser... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 15:41, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::While admittedly good, none of the above points were mine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:12, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:After the wonderful Resurrection Ship series, it is almost impossible to follow up with equal quality. I think some of the essential premises of this episode were good - militant peace movement, Roslin's rash decisions in the face of death and subsequent resurgence by cylon blood, Baltar being the consummate scientist always doodingly and 'tinkering', Gina finding a hiding place among the peace movement - I think this episode failed more in the execution of these plot premises. Ron Moore sometimes gets too much "Oh, nobody cares about the tech talk. Let's just tell the story" which does make BSG sooo much better than any other scifi, but here he went too far. It is obvious this episode was designed purely to move the story along and pave the way for future episodes, so I enjoyed watching it for that even while I was growning from the inconsistencies. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 11:10, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:I enjoyed it, but that could be because I was so happy to have a new episode of BSG on my birthday (1/20 btw). --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 12:21, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:Yeah I agree it wasn't the best episode, but it could have been worse, especially if it was another series trying to do the same thing. Although Ron Moore didn't mention it, do you think the episode was one of those ones made to save on budget due to Ressurrection and later episodes? I just think the episode was trying to cover too much in too little time and so things, in this case being Roslin's cancer, ended up being rushed. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 18:41, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:Oh, and I got to say that one upside neat thing of this episode was the machine shop scene because it was so very...un-scifi and very real-world.[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 16:25, 23 January 2006 (EST)

==Cancer Therapy==
I've studied some immunology, so I'm just going to talk briefly about this Cylon Blood business.

*There are two ways to attack a cancer cell.
**Chemotherapy, radiation therapy, and nucleoside analogues specifically target cells that are dividing very quickly. This will generally include cancerous growths, but will also target cells that are rapidly dividing by nature, such as hair.
**The body also maintains a set of [[Wikipedia:Cytotoxic T cell|Cytotoxic T cell]]s. These are basically trained to recognize what the antigens of a "normal" body cell looks like, and, if it finds those normal antigens in combination with foreign antigens (either viral or cancerous in nature), signal the cell to commit [[Wikipedia:Apoptosis|Apoptosis]]

*Presumably, the Cylon fetus's blood's lack of "antigens" meant that it could be given to Roslin without inducing [[Wikipedia:Transplant rejection|Transplant rejection]].
**It should be noted that normal, O-type human blood shares this quality (at least as far as red blood cells are concerned).
**Complete lack of antigens on a cell, however, is a biological absurdity.

*Therefore, it seems as though Baltar made two assumptions: That the cylon immune system was more "robust" than a normal human's, and that (based on the lack of antigens) it could be transplanted or donated to Roslin, where the cylon immune cells would root out her disease.
**However, for the reasons above, immune cells which specifically target cancer must be "trained" by exposure to non-cancerous body cells. The Cylon cells would have no knowlege of what Roslin's non-cancerous cells were supposed to look like, so it wouldn't be able to distinguish them from the cancerous ones.
**Alternatively, if it identified cancer cells based on their replication rate, she should suffer side effects comparable to a severe round of chemotherapy or radiation therapy immediately afterwards.

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:55, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Do add your knowledge to the renamed [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] page..it will help my layman's knowledge a lot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:51, 22 January 2006 (EST)

I have to finish the podcast for Epiphanies. However, RDM states at point point that the finished episode is edited down to just say "the baby's blood", but the scenes they cut clearly explain he's using it's fetal blood STEM CELLS, and then gives a SCIENTIFIC explanation of what this will actually do (I haven't heard the whole thing). However, he thought something like the audience wouldn't understand it, he's afraid of what SOUNDS like technobabble (even when it's entirely accurate; remember how Star Trek: Voyager became obsessed with giving really accurate, but really longwinded science explanations?), and they were running low on time, etc. etc. I hope this info is still "canonical". I need to check on this. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:30, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:He says they contemplated it in the writer's room, but the idea didn't survive to filming. In any case, it still makes just as little sense. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::It's nice to hear that he may have been thinking of a plausable explanation, but we really can only go by what's on screen. We can't be sure something is cannon unless we see it, right? [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

==Guest Stars==
I don't remember Hot Dog being in this episode. What did he do? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:20, 24 January 2006 (EST)

*I have a tape so I copied the credits from the episode into the article. It's what they said on screen. I was a little confused, but the way I see it, he's usually in the backround without lines in a lot of episodes, or maybe a minor 20 second scene was cut. Happens all the time. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:36, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== Bomb Use Spoiler ==

Ricimer, could you cite the spoiler source you have in that the bomb does function as a nuclear device and is detonated? I decided to remove your spoiltext since it was unsourced and I could find no mention of the bomb's use on our future episode pages. The magnitude of a nuke blowing up a ship in the Fleet would cause catastrophic damage to many, many ships...although I can see Pegasus meeting its end that way... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:44, 24 January 2006 (EST)

* It was mentioned at the end of the podcast that the bomb story-line would come to a head in the final two episodes of this season. -- [[User:rexpop|rexpop]] 18:50, 24 January 2006 (EST)

Just a thought on the question of the Nuclear Warhead vs. the Radiological Detection devices. In the Episode "33" the Radiological Alarm isn't raised until the Olympic Carrier starts her suicide run at Galactica. One can infer from this that the Nukes used in the series don't eminate signifigant amounts of radition to set off the alarms until the warhead is actually armed... One should also note that we have never seen Baltar (or anyone else for that matter) wearing any sort of protective clothing for dealing with Radioactive Materials. One would think if the warhead in question where indeed leaking rad's left and right that this precaution would have been taken.
Since it doesn't appear to have been neccessary , its somewhat plausible that the radiation is well shielded until the weapon is armed.
Given the Colonials ability to travel at Faster Than Light Speeds...and use of the material Tillium as fuel...that their "Nukes" are of signifigantly more advanced design than our own current arsenal. We don't really know what the fissial material is...and the one device we have seen is certainly much smaller than conventional Nukes.
just my 2 cents.

== Roslin as a Cylon ==

Gmusser wrote:
:''True, it wasn't precisely the same scene, but nonetheless it was very close in time and location. We need to consider that Roslin was the person whom Six met in the miniseries and add her to the list of [[Humano-Cylon]] Speculated Infiltrators.''

I'm not even sure how to respond to this, other than by noting that I find this line of speculation completely absurd. Many things in the universe are possible, but not all of them deserve a line on the episode guide. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:19, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:Agreed. Anyone in a population of billions could have been meeting with Six, and this guy just jumps to saying "we have to face the real possibility that it was Roslin"?? Shot in the dark. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:29, 28 January 2006 (EST)