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The Son Also Rises

2007-09-11T09:54:46Z

Steve: /* Continuity */ No reason why CAG has to fly Vipers

{{Episode Data
| title= The Son Also Rises
| image= 3x18-TheSonAlsoRises-ApolloBaltarLampkin.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 18
| guests=
| writer= [[Michael Angeli]]
| story=
| director= [[Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]]
| production= 318
| rating=1.2
| US airdate= 2007-03-11
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| podcast = y
| population= 41399
| oldpopulation= 41400
| prev= [[Maelstrom]]
| next= [[Crossroads, Part I]]
| itunes= http://click.linksynergy.com/fs-bin/stat?id=VWbyALbmqZY&offerid=78941&type=3&subid=0&tmpid=1826&RD_PARM1=http%253A%252F%252Fphobos.apple.com%252FWebObjects%252FMZStore.woa%252Fwa%252FviewTVSeason%253Fi%253D219074621%2526id%253D200852806%2526s%253D143441%2526partnerId%253D30
| unbox=http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fgp%2Fproduct%2FB000V1ZKIK&tag=battlestarwik-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325
}}

== Overview ==
:''With [[Gaius Baltar]]'s trial merely two weeks away, [[Lee Adama]] is tasked with protecting [[Romo Lampkin]], Baltar's second lawyer, and finds himself going up against [[William Adama|his own father]], who himself is appointed as one of the five judges in Baltar's trial.''

== Summary ==

=== Teaser ===

[[Image:Adama's b-day card.jpg|thumb|right|Adama happens upon an old, self-made birthday card from [[Kara Thrace]], while reviewing her jacket.]]
* [[William Adama]] reviews [[Kara Thrace]]'s service record file, which includes various disciplinary notices, commendations, and citations.
* Meanwhile, on ''[[Colonial One]]'', [[Laura Roslin]] presides over a drawing of ship captains who will comprise of the five judges of [[Gaius Baltar]]'s tribunal. [[Tory Foster]] picks up a folded card from the bowl, handing it to Roslin. It reads: Captain [[Elias Meeker]], ''[[Gideon]]''.
* Adama happens upon more records, including a commendation for bravery regarding her actions in recovering the civilians from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]].
* Foster draws out one last name from the bowl. When Roslin opens it, she initially begins to read the card aloud, but stops herself as she reads the name, clearly shocked.
* As Adama continues to slowly run through the jacket, he happens across a self-made birthday card she made for him. The cover reads: "You were always like a father to me...". Upon opening the card, he sees a picture of Thrace, who is wearing his glasses and has a hand-drawn [[Adamastache|mustache]]. Above the picture are the words: "See the resemblance?"; below: "Happy birthday, young man" signing it with "much love, Kara". This elicits a laugh from Adama, who begins to tear up and sniffle.
* On the flight deck, a grieving and inebriated [[Samuel Anders]] stands on top of a [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]], who is tossing a coined-[[cubit]], calling "heads" correctly for the fourth time in a row. Watching him are [[Anthony Figurski]], [[Hamish McCall]] and [[Margaret Edmondson]].
* In the [[memorial hallway]], [[Lee Adama]] stands in front of the section containing [[Louanne Katraine|Kat's]] picture. He thumbs with a photo of Thrace, keeping it close to his belly, then pocketing it as he hears the sound of Racetrack's footsteps. Edmondson then gets his attention by calling Adama by his rank.
* Still standing above the cockpit of the Viper, Anders holds out the cubit, saying that his "girl is too lucky to check out". Adama and Edmondson approach; Adama joins Anders on top of the Viper and attempts to talk him down. Emotionally distraught, he initially sits down, then jumps up, saying he has somewhere to go, but he doesn't complete his words as he slips and falls from the Viper. Adama climbs down from the Viper as some of the spectators begin to cluster near the fallen Anders, who says "I think I fell".
* As Adama checks Anders over for injuries, Anders asks him: "She's still alive, right?" Adama replies in the negative, which Anders tearfully claims he knows.
* In [[CIC]], Colonel [[Saul Tigh]] tells Adama he's been selected as one of the five ship captains that form Baltar's tribunal.
* On the hangar deck, Racetrack complains about having to fly [[Alan Hughes|Baltar's lawyer]] back and forth from the ''[[Zephyr]]'', saying he whispers into her ear and takes his shoes off on board.
* Skulls wonders why Baltar is even given a trial while he's obviously guilty, to which Cally replies it's justice.
* An explosive charge detonates aboard the [[Raptor]]. Racetrack walks out unharmed, but Baltar's lawyer is dead.

===Act 1===
*A press conference on Baltar's fate on ''[[Colonial One]]'' asks questions about the trial, a lawyer replacement, and other matters. Roslin stands firm against any terrorist acts affecting the trial.
*In the [[Pilot ready rooms|pilot ready room]], the mood is also somber. Major Adama is making mistakes and distracted. A reconnaissance operation is planned.
*After a joke, Adama says "Starbuck" and not "Racetrack" after the [[Raptor]] pilot makes a joke to [[Sharon Agathon]] about checking under her seat, and an overwhelming awkwardness settles within the room. Adama dismisses the group hurriedly.
*Roslin interviews the new attorney, [[Romo Lampkin]] with Admiral Adama present. Lampkin abruptly introduces the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet leaders]] to his [[Lance|cat]], who is in a foul mood.
*Adama asks his son to aid with attorney's affairs. When the younger Adama objects to being grounded as [[CAG]] and indicating that he's "okay", the admiral tells him that he knows that his son isn't okay because the admiral himself is also still in grief over Thrace's death.
*Lampkin is given his quarters and asks to see Baltar. Lampkin wants to choose a room that is unlikely to be wired for surveillance. He tells Major Adama that he was a student of his grandfather, [[Joseph Adama]].
*The scene shifts to see someone's hands preparing explosive charges.

===Act 2===
*Baltar, in a bulletproof vest, is escorted by [[Marine]]s to his attorney in Major Adama's quarters. The major is present under client confidentiality.
*Baltar is agitated as he writes more quick notes for his [[My Triumphs, My Mistakes|manifesto]]. He knows that the tribunal will use [[Caprica Six]] against him.
*When Lampkin asks to be taken to ''Colonial One'', Adama objects. When he insults Adama, the major reacts violently, his stress over the events of the last two weeks coming forth briefly.
*Adama manages to convince Captain [[Aaron Kelly]] to fly the Raptor with [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] and Lampkin aboard, despite the admiral's grounding order for the major.
*As the Raptor's door is almost closed, Lampkin's cat escapes through the hatchway, and the door is reopened while other [[deckhand|deckhands]] scramble to chase the cat.
*As Chief Tyrol crawls under the Raptor to reach the cat, he discovers the bomb, and everyone madly scrambles away.
*Later, Admiral Adama is infuriated at his son for disobeying orders, noting how everyone is out of sorts since Thrace's death two weeks prior. The admiral orders his son to do his job, properly, for he will be on the other side of the courtroom as a tribunal member.

===Act 3===
*The bomb is dissected and analyzed. Deck crew and officers discuss the problem: One of them is a conspirator. [[Cally Tyrol]] states her opinion, and accuses the Cylons, and more indirectly Sharon Agathon, for the bombings and inciting the riots within the Fleet.
*Major Adama warns Lampkin to watch himself, but Lampkin is philosophical, realizing that someone will eventually get to him, no matter what.
*On ''Colonial One'', Roslin grants Lampkin permission to interview [[Caprica-Six]] in the usual interrogation room. [[Tory Foster]] apologizes to Apollo for the difficulty and delay in getting the files Lampkin requested shipped to him.
*As Lampkin interviews Six, she notes her love for him. Lampkin relates his experiences in love, which moves Six. On asking if Baltar asked about her, Lampkin removes his glasses and shows Baltar's pen, telling her that his sacrifice of his one limited freedom is an expression of his love.
*Lampkin tells her, that unlike Baltar, she won't get a trial.
*Later, [[Anthony Figurski]] delivers the papers Lampkin requested from ''[[Colonial One]]'', noting that Captain Kelly had inspected them. The [[Marine]] escort is suspicious, and both they and Lampkin inspect the paper box to their satisfaction.
*As Lampkin enters his key code for opening his quarter's hatch, Marine [[Cheadle]] notices a screw on the floor, and realizes that the key lock had been tampered with. He tackles Lampkin, pushing him to safety just as the hatchway explodes, taking the full force of the explosion.

===Act 4===
*Lampkin survives the bomb attack, but is in [[sickbay]]. Major Adama speaks with him and has brought a bag containing Lampkin's possessions.
*Lampkin states that he is a [[w:kleptomaniac|kleptomaniac]], and master slight-of-hand thief. Major Adama begins to remove the items with Lampkin commenting on the significance of each: Roslin's glasses, a shoe from the prosecuting attorney, a button from the admiral's jacket. "I borrow things," he says. When the major asks what Lampkin took from him, he tells him that he found Thrace's picture, but didn't take it.
*Adama discovers a special object that could only come from an officer. He asks who Lampkin burgled to get this object.
*Major Adama interview Captain Kelly, who admits to be the bomber, warning that he would continue the attacks if left on duty.
*The admiral reinstates his son as [[CAG]], but the younger Adama wants to help Lampkin, to his father's repeated objections. Eventually, the admiral, furious with the major, orders that the major be removed from the board and re-instate [[Helo]] as temporary CAG.
*Thrace's picture makes it on the memorial board as she requested, next to [[Kat]]. Anders, on crutches and with his left leg in a cast, comes in. The two come to terms with Thrace's death and possibly mend their friendship.
*Baltar finds an envelope with his pen, and a note from his attorney.
*The note contains a poetic line, telling Baltar that there is no more powerful ally than a son who decides to step away from his father's shadow.

===Bonus Scene===

*The scene begins with Athena and Cally Tyrol in the hangar deck while the rest of the deck gang is away.
*Athena begins to ask Cally why she accused her of being the bomber, upon which Cally denies ever making a direct accusation.
*Athena responds that she didn't accuse or even indirectly imply that Cally is the bomber, even though Cally was the last deck hand to inspect the Raptor.
*Athena allows Cally to take her gun and hold it to her chest, while Athena states why she knows Cally, despite her intense hatred for the Cylons, wouldn't shoot her. It is because she knows Athena loves her husband, her daughter, and ''Galactica''. Cally, according to Athena, would never dare take a child's mother away.
*After a few tense moments, Athena grabs the gun, points it next to Cally's head and states in unambiguous terms that if Cally is discovered to be the bomber, Athena will kill Cally herself.

== Notes ==

=== Continuity ===

*Starting with this episode, [[Katee Sackhoff]]'s name is no longer listed in the opening credits.
*The population count at the start of this episode is 41,399, accounting for [[Kara Thrace]]'s death in "[[Maelstrom]]". At least one birth must have occurred to set off [[Alan Hughes]]'s death in the teaser. Assuming that Marine [[Cheadle]] died in the explosion that almost kills Lampkin, the population count would be 41,398, a number that does not take into account any births or other deaths that occurred off-screen.
*[[Karl Agathon]] is temporarily assigned as [[CAG]], despite not having any previously known experience as a [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]] pilot. After Apollo, Helo is the highest-ranking established pilot left. Experienced Viper pilots passed over for the job include [[Marcia Case]], [[Ricky Richardson]], and [[Hotdog]], of whom the latter had at least as much experience as former CAG [[Kat]]. This is consistent with the traditions of the U.S. Navy, which does not require the CAG to be a fighter pilot, or indeed any kind of pilot - commissioned aircrew such as Electronic Countermeasures Officers are equally eligible.
*The model ship which [[William Adama|Adama]] destroyed in [[Maelstrom|the previous episode]] is still sitting on a shelf in his quarters.
*The one-armed deckhand - using a prosthetic - who first appeared in "[[Dirty Hands]]" can be seen in the far background in the scene with Hughes boarding the Raptor before he is killed.
*When Adama looks at Thrace's personnel file, one of the sheets is a field commendation for valor and bravery received for an operation called "Blue Mountain Retreat" and "action on Hill ER5". Since it mentions a rescue of civilians, this likely refers to the New Caprica Rescue mission in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens]]".

=== Development ===

* This episode's title is a pun on the title of the 1926 [[w:Ernest Hemingway|Ernest Hemingway]] novel "[[w:The Sun Also Rises|The Sun Also Rises]]".
* [[Samuel Anders|Sam Anders]]' flipping a coin and continually coming up with heads is reminiscent of the early moments of Tom Stoppard's play ''Rosencrantz And Guildenstern Are Dead'', in which Rosencrantz has the same result on a coin flip over a dozen times. This leads Guildenstern to comment "Consider - One: Probability is a factor which operates within natural forces. Two: Probability is not operating as a factor. Three: We are now held within un-, sub-, or supernatural forces." The moral is that two minor characters within a play (namely, ''Hamlet'') have no control over their fate, and are condemned to carry out their role in the story regardless of their desperate attempts to change events.
* According to [[Michael Angeli]], Lampkin's first name, Romo, is from the first two letters of [[Ronald D. Moore]]'s first and last names.<ref>{{cite_rdm_podcast|episode=The Son Also Rises Bonus|act=|id=|timestamp=~00:01:05|totalrunning=~00:47:39}}</ref> Romo Lampkin was also initially conceived as a "55 year old [[w:Alan Dershowitz|Alan Dershowitz]] character".<ref>{{cite_rdm_podcast|episode=The Son Also Rises Bonus|act=|id=|timestamp=~00:11:42|totalrunning=~00:47:39}}</ref>
* The door code to Romo Lampkin's temporary quarters on ''Galactica'' is 1234.
*[[Romo Lampkin]] exhibits symptoms of [[w:Kleptomania|kleptomania]]. Over the course of the episode he steals many objects Lampkin views as important to their owner from a psychological perspective, and thus provides him with knowledge of a person. Among the objects stolen:
** Gaius Baltar's worn fountain pen
** Laura Roslin's glasses
** Admiral Adama's uniform button, which Adama first searches for when Lampkin talks to [[Caprica-Six]]
** Ms. [[Cassidy]]'s sandal
** [[Aaron Kelly]]'s magnetic component, used in his bomb-making

== Analysis ==
* A noticeable pattern between the two Adamas can be seen whenever both are going through a stressful or traumatic situation. Whereas the [[William Adama|elder Adama]] has the experience and the desire to focus on the job that he has to do, the [[Lee Adama|younger Adama]] consistently displays an inability to cope and process his emotions. This difference between the two has often led to sharp divisions, causing another tear in their damaged relationship:
** In the [[Miniseries]], Bill Adama is trying to get on with his life after the loss of his son Zak, but Lee is still full of rage over the incident and quite unambiguously holds his father responsible for what happened.
** When the two Adamas do not agree on the same method of coping with the destruction of the ''Olympic Carrier'' in "[[33]]". This eventually leads to Lee Adama becoming [[Laura Roslin|Roslin]]'s military adviser and eventual co-conspirator during the hunt for the [[Arrow of Apollo]].
** During the planning for the [[Battle of New Caprica]], the two Adamas butt heads again over strategy and whether it is worth the risk of losing the last remnants of humanity that were with [[Galactica (RDM)|''Galactica'']] and [[Pegasus (RDM)|''Pegasus'']] at the time.

* Lee Adama has consistently shown a tendency to prove that he is not like his father, even though both are described as stubborn by [[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] and [[Carolanne Adama]]. This tendency is evident in the last argument between the two when Apollo accuses Adama of not wanting him to become like his grandfather.

* When Lee Adama mistakenly calls [[Racetrack]] "Starbuck", his mental state is reminiscent of "[[Black Market]]" when he constantly found himself recollecting events on Caprica before the genocide.

* William Adama's failure to listen to Carolanne Adama's pleas and advice to tell his son how proud he is of him comes back with a vengeance when Apollo repeatedly asks his father if he is giving him an order, the implication being that Apollo wanted to know if his father is treating him as a son or as a soldier. Adama's refusal to ask Apollo to obey his orders as his son will probably lead to further dissension between the two.

* [[Romo Lampkin]], though he appears to be a lawyer with little courtroom experience, has demonstrated a deep understanding of the human psyche. He takes Roslin's glasses to prevent her from being taken seriously during the trial. His other feats such as raising doubt and bringing out [[Caprica-Six]]'s feelings for [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]], and his slow but sure persuasion of Lee Adama into helping with Baltar's case, give hints to a man who obviously has immense experience with the art of manipulation.

* Lee Adama honors [[Kara Thrace|Thrace]]'s request of having her photo posted next to [[Louanne Katraine|Kat]]'s. His inability to let go of the photo may represent a possible marriage conflict with Dualla if he is unable to truly move on.

* [[Cally Tyrol]] correctly states that the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] wouldn't need to even fire one shot because they may find the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] had torn itself apart because of humanity's tendency towards self-destruction. However, it is also clear that she has not realized that she and the many workers are just as much a part of the problems when they essentially risked the existence of the Fleet with their work strikes, refusal to refine [[tylium]], and disobedience toward military orders ([[Dirty Hands]]). The summary of all those acts cannot be attributed to Cylon intervention as Cally Tyrol is implying that [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] is responsible for the bombings.

* Two weeks have passed since the events of "[[Maelstrom]]". During this time, Adama apparently has been mulling over his memories of Starbuck, including a review of her military record. The audience sees, amongst the items in the folder, a hand-made birthday card which Thrace gave Adama for his birthday once. It jokingly shows Thrace with a color pen mustache and glasses, and asks if Adama can see the resemblance. This moment reinforces the theme that Starbuck was very much a daughter to Adama, even though he stated otherwise in "[[Torn]]". It is very clear that he still sees Thrace as a daughter to him.

* After the events of "[[The Woman King]]", Helo has been reinstated amongst the pilots of ''Galactica'', as the original purpose of assigning him to [[Dogsville]] was in response to his objections and sabotage of the Cylon biological weapon. Starting with "[[Dirty Hands]]", Helo is present at briefings in the ready room, and by the implications of this episode, he appears to be one of the four squadron leaders. Thus, once Apollo's flight status is revoked it is only natural for Adama to promote Helo to the CAG position because of seniority and trust.

* It is unclear whether Helo has experience with a Viper, but numerous Viper pilots have been flying Raptors so far. Whether this goes both ways it yet to be seen, but with Helo's position as head of a squadron and now CAG, it appears that he has at least enough operational and tactical knowledge to do the necessary organizational and administrative duties. His previous experience as Galactica's [[XO]] may also have been a factor in his appointment.

* Though Kelly tells Apollo that he would have never detonated the bomb with him inside, the fact that the bomb had been planted and that Kelly couldn't anticipate Apollo's impromptu decision to join Lampkin, makes it clear that Kelly's original intention was to kill Lampkin ''and'' Athena. Whether this is an indirect statement on Kelly's view on Athena's Cylon heritage or his desire to raise the stakes by not only killing Baltar's lawyer, but sacrifice a member of the crew, is unclear.

* This is the first episode since the end of Season 2 that any member of the "[[The Colonial Gang]]", specifically [[Playa Palacios]] has been seen in the series. This episode and the nature of the remaining episodes may indicate a return to the President-news press relationship that the audience has seen in the past.

== Questions ==
* Is Lampkin's statement to Roslin and Adama that he is seeking the fame (or infamy) of being Baltar's lawyer true, or is there an ulterior motive?
* Will Captain Kelly be punished and if yes, how?
* Besides the attacks caused by Kelly, have there been any other incidents of violence on the scale that Zarek warned Roslin about?
* Will the death of Thrace bring Lee Adama and Sam Anders closer as friends in the future?
* Would the bomb on the Raptor have gone off if Tyrol hadn't discovered it? Is Kelly telling the truth that he would not have triggered it with Lee Adama inside?
* Is Cally's hatred of the Cylons truly towards all Cylons or is she afraid of Athena because of her connection to Tyrol's former lover, Boomer?
* Why does Lampkin wear sunglasses in most of his encounters with people?
* What caused the rift between William Adama and his own father?
* Given Karl Agathon's temporary promotion to CAG, does he have previous flight experience as a Viper pilot?
* Given the reappearance of [[Playa Palacios]] in this episode, what of her other fellow "[[The Colonial Gang]]" correspondents, [[James McManus]] and [[Sekou Hamilton]], or the program itself?

== Official Statements ==

=== Cast Comments ===

* ''[[Mark Sheppard]] discusses how he approached portrayal of [[Romo Lampkin]]:''
: '''Mark Sheppard:''' Ron had said that he gave [[Michael Angeli]] ''carte blanche'' to make this character as odd and as wide as he wanted to make it. Michael Angeli is a very, very, very clever writer. It’s wonderful dialog, it’s a wonderfully convoluted, complicated character. You know the glasses idea was his idea, he wears dark glasses a lot, Michael Angeli, and the glasses were very important to him. And he put the cat in and all these strange elements and the kleptomania. and there are all these other questions, is he a Cylon? a manipulator? is he this, is he that. All of these things are kind of irrelevant. I played him as the last sane man in the universe. If you think of the episode "The Son Also Rises", my first episode, it’s the episode after "[[Maelstrom]]". Maelstrom is a disaster an absolute disaster! The end of "Maelstrom" leaves you with this huge hole, this gap and I walk in to a group of people in mourning. They are in mourning for [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]]. I think I’m the only person paying attention. I think none of them are paying attention because of the events of [[New Caprica]] and everything that has happened since New Caprica. I mean basically they just want to tear [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] to pieces, they kind of admit that they will move the trial forward because people need it, they need the trial, they need something.<ref name="tsw">{{cite_web|url=http://www.thescifiworld.net/interviews/mark_sheppard_01.htm|title=The Sci-Fi World: Mark Sheppard interview|date=1 May 2007|accessdate=24 May 2007|last=Nuytens|first=Gilles|format=|language=}}</ref>

* ''Mark Sheppard discusses a deleted scene involving [[Jerry]], the [[Lance|cat]]:''
: '''Mark Sheppard:''' There is this lovely scene that they cut out. At the end of the scene when [[Lee Adama|Lee]] says if anything moves don’t touch it, if anything is in the wrong place, it’s when he is worried about me finding a bomb. And my line is if they want to kill me they’ll find a way, now how do I get to see the [[Caprica-Six|Cylon woman]]. And I looked down and Jerry the cat is sitting there and what is funny is I looked at him and there is a line [where I say], "Please go boom." And what happened is the cat looked up at me when I spoke to him, then as I looked away, he looked away. It was very funny. (laughs) Cat’s do what they wanna do.<ref name="tsw"/>

* ''Sheppard discusses his reaction to [[Ron D. Moore]]'s offer of being Lampkin in three episodes:''
: '''Sheppard:''' It’s very, very weird. It was a very, very, very weird day. But it was kind of brilliant. I think he took great delight, and as I take great delight, in the fact that most of the time I tend to play what are termed “villains” – I don’t think of people as villains, but people with massively different agendas than the heroes usually in our pictures, especially in sci-fi. And this, I think, is very, very different. I think Romo is very, very different. I mean…somebody asked me, “Do you think he’s a [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]]?” First thing Eddie [[Edward James Olmos|[Edward James Olmos]]] said was, “The first thing I’d be thinking was: he’s a cylon.” I’m like, but does it really matter? Does it matter whether he’s a cylon? It actually doesn’t. I mean, his principles are extraordinary. His logic is I think extraordinary.

: It’s just because he’s very deliberate in the way that he executes what he does. As a character – the character is written very deliberately, in a manner that he has a very different set of moral values than the people around him. Which I think is an absolutely amazing thing to play. Plus being a kleptomaniac, you know – if you have a bizarre trait it doesn’t hurt along the way. Michael Angeli’s [writer] kind of brilliant when it comes to that kind of writing.<ref>{{cite_web|url=http://www.buddytv.com/articles/battlestar-galactica/exclusive-interview-mark-shepp-7849.aspx|title=Buddytv.com Exclusive Interview: Mark Sheppard, from 'Battlestar Galactica'|date=3 July 2007|accessdate=13 August 2007|last=|first=|format=|language=}}</ref>

=== Podcast ===

Information from [[Podcast:The Son Also Rises|the podcast]]:
* Ron Moore admits that it's a stretch to have both Adamas involved intimately in the trial and even on opposite sides. But the writers decided to go for increased drama, since the trial would otherwise only be carried by guest stars with the show's main characters sidelined. Moore also believes that Admiral Adama is capable to make fair and rational decisions.
* Romo Lampkin's cat was supposed to be run out of the Raptor, but when shooting the cat only strolled. Since it's difficult to teach cats what to do, the film was sped up instead.
* That Lampkin always wears sunglasses was a decision made by the writer that was ultimately supported, despite concern on the part of the actor and the director.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

* ''Colonel Saul Tigh tells Admiral William Adama the good news:''
: '''[[Saul Tigh]]:''' Your Honor. (Adama looks at Tigh, confused) You haven't heard? Where have you been? They've just announced it. You won the lottery. You own exactly 1/5th of [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]]'s ''skinny ass''.

* ''[[Romo Lampkin]] replies to [[William Adama]]'s question regarding his qualifications for defending [[Gaius Baltar]]:''
: '''Lampkin:''' I was born for this. That, and the fact I have a pulse.

* ''Admiral Adama rips [[Lee Adama]] another one:''
: '''William Adama:''' What the hell were you doing out there? I gave you an order. To do a job.
: '''Lee Adama:''' Excuse me, I was ''doing my job''.
: '''Bill:''' Yeah, being led around by the nose! This bastard yanks your chain and you jump.
: '''Lee:''' He wanted files from ''[[Colonial One]]''–
: '''Bill:''' It was the middle of the night.
: '''Lee:''' Well, you assigned me to security.
: '''Bill:''' Yeah. And there was a bomb on [[Raptor|that ship]]. And you ''missed it''. Security? I gave you ''explicit orders''.
: '''Lee:''' [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] was piloting.
: '''Bill:''' You coulda died. Plain and simple. ''You're a soldier. Live like one. Start acting like one!''
: '''Lee:''' [[Kara Thrace|She]]'s [[Maelstrom|been gone]] two weeks. I didn't realize the clock was running.
: '''Bill:''' ''(softly)'' Stop.
: '''Lee:''' No, I'm sorry. Maybe because we're just built differently.
: '''Bill:''' You stop. Don't you dare quantify my loss.
: '''Lee:''' You have no idea. ''You have no frakking idea.''
: '''Bill:''' What, you think yours is deeper?
: '''Lee:''' Well–
: '''Bill:''' Yours is greater? ''(Lee doesn't respond)'' In two weeks, there's going to be a trial. And I'm going to do what I was chosen to do, and so are you! You build a [[frak]]king nest around this man and you ''protect his ass''!

* ''Lampkin (ostensibly) confides in Caprica about his tortured romantic past:''
: '''Lampkin:''' I loved a woman. Beautiful, beautiful woman. But so serious. This frowning face, trapped in the middle of a daisy. She had a way of walking, processional. As if she were on her way to her own execution. We had ten years. Then it fell apart under its own weight.
: '''Caprica:''' Is that what you wanted?
: '''Lampkin:''' I thought if I could get over her, I could get over anything. I could endure. Conquer. Be a man, stand up to any and all kind of punishment. I clung to an empty, spinning bed for months. And that... that is when I finally realized how much I loved her. If I needed ''all that strength,'' ''...what, was the '''point'''?'' I needed to be with her.

* ''[[Cally Tyrol]] apparently learns from her [[Dirty Hands|mistakes]], and misses the point:''
: '''Tyrol:''' I believe that the Cylons want us to destroy ourselves and this is how they're doing it. By planting bombs, making us suspicious of each other. You know what's funny? By the time the Cylons catch up with us, they won't even have to attack. They'll just clean up the mess we made. I think they're here.
: '''[[Sharon Agathon]]:''' I think you're wrong.

* ''Apollo and Lampkin discuss Joseph Adama:''
: '''Lampkin:''' Everybody has demons. Them, Baltar, you, me. Even the machines. The law is just a way of exorcising them. That's what your father's father told me. You want to know why I hated him? Because he was right.
: '''Apollo:''' So you hated him because he was right, and I hated the law because it was wrong. Because of what— of what it put him through. I mean, he defended the worst of the worst. I remember reading about him. The outrage, helping murderers go free. What I don't understand is why he put himself through all that abuse—
: '''Lampkin:''' You think he gave a flying frak? Joe Adama cared about one thing: understanding why people do what they do. Why we cheat our friends, why we reward our enemies. Why we go to war, sacrificing our lives for lost causes. Why we build machines in the hope of correcting our flaws and our shortcomings. Why we forgive, defying logic and the laws of nature with one stupid little act of compassion. We're flawed, all of us. I wanted to know why, so I did what he did: I spent my life with the fallen, the corrupt, the damaged. Look at you: you were so ready to get on that Raptor with me, be the bad boy, the prodigal son!
: '''Apollo:''' No, I was just doing my job, protecting you!
: '''Lampkin:''' What are you doing in my business? Suddenly I'm handcuffed to a serial contrarian?!
: '''Apollo:''' No, I am not— oh, OK.
: '''Lampkin:''' My bed is made. I suggest you toil on your own. Now, if this cross-examination is over, I'd like to take a crap.

* ''Lee Adama discovers Lampkin's kleptomania:''
: '''Lampkin:''' My demons. I borrow things. My parents disappeared when I was nine years old. They were kidnapped. Murdered for the money they had on them, which wasn't enough. I went to live with an uncle, stole from him until I could run away.
: '''Adama:''' So what did you take from me?
: '''Lampkin:''' I was thinking the photograph that you carry. The girl. The pilot. The one you carry [in your pocket]. But you've had enough stolen from you already.

* ''Lee Adama confronts Kelly about the bomb:''
: '''Kelly:''' I would have never let Athena airborne with you on the Raptor. I would have stopped it. You know that.
: '''Adama:''' Yeah, I know that.
: '''Kelly:''' You'd better lock me up. And I don't want any trial. I won't stop. I will keep trying. I'll keep at it, I will. I did my job, sir. And I have done my job for two years. Every day I've sent people out to fight. I cleared them all to die. So many people. I just got tired of living with that. You ask that man, if you had to choose between giving up his life for a Cylon or human, what do you think he'd say? I had to do something.

* ''Baltar reads a note from Lampkin, after retrieving his pen from the envelope:''
: '''Lampkin:''' There's no greater ally, no force more powerful, no enemy more resolved than a son who chooses to step from his father's shadow. Romo Lampkin.

== Guest Stars ==
* [[Michael Hogan]] as Colonel [[Saul Tigh]]
* [[Aaron Douglas]] as Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]
* [[Nicki Clyne]] as Specialist [[Cally Tyrol]]
* [[Tahmoh Penikett]] as Capt. [[Karl Agathon|Karl "Helo" Agathon]]
* [[Alessandro Juliani]] as Lt. [[Felix Gaeta]]
* [[Kandyse McClure]] as Lt. [[Anastasia Dualla]]
* [[Michael Trucco]] as [[Samuel Anders]]
* [[Rekha Sharma]] as [[Tory Foster]]
* [[Sebastian Spence]] as Lt. [[Noel Allison|Noel "Narcho" Allison]]
* [[Mark Sheppard]] as [[Romo Lampkin]]
* [[Colin Lawrence]] as [[Hamish McCall|Hamish "Skulls" McCall]]
* [[Leah Cairns]] as Lt. [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
* [[Ty Olsson]] as Cpt. [[Aaron Kelly]]
* [[Bodie Olmos]] as Lt. [[Brendan Costanza|Brendan "Hotdog" Costanza]]
* [[Don Thompson]] as [[Anthony Figurski]]
* [[Tyler McClendon]] as [[Alan Hughes]]
* [[Stephen Holmes]] as Reporter #1
* [[Christina Schild]] as [[Playa Palacios]]
* [[Alison Matthews]] as [[Karen Fallbrook|Fallbrook]]
* [[Chris Boyd]] as Marine [[Cheadle]]
* [[Colin Corrigan]] as Marine [[Nowart]]
* [[Jerry]] as [[Lance]] (uncredited)<ref name="tsw"/>

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:A to Z|The Son Also Rises]]
[[Category:Episode Guide|The Son Also Rises]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)|The Son Also Rises]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Michael Angeli]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]]
[[Category:RDM]]

[[de:The Son Also Rises]]
[[zh:虎子崛起]]

ECO

2007-06-14T07:12:51Z

Steve: Only USN + USMC have ECMOs, other forces call 'em EWOs

The acronym '''ECO''' stands for '''Electronic Countermeasures Officer'''.<ref>While the term has not been spelled out on screen, in the US Navy and Marine Corps the acronym ECMO exists for it. In a [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2006/04/ blog entry] Ron Moore also states that he originally envisioned the Raptor as an electronic warfare platform, similar to the modern [[w:EA-6 Prowler|EA-6 Prowler]].</ref>

The ECO is responsible for the [[ECM|electronic countermeasures]] on a [[Raptor]] ([[Miniseries]], "[[33]]"). ECOs also operate computer equipment, including scanning and detection equipment ("[[Water]]," "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]").

ECOs are pilots who also are certified to fly a Raptor if the primary pilot is incapacitated or unavailable. [[Crashdown]] pilots his Raptor when his pilot [[Karma]] is killed ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]), and [[Racetrack]] pilots a Raptor on several occasions ("[[Fragged]]", "[[Final Cut]]").

As [[Galactica (RDM)|''Galactica'']] faces chronic pilot and ship shortages, ECOs like Racetrack pull 'double-duty' as both Raptor or [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]] pilots ([[Exodus, Part II]]).

== Examples of ECOs ==

* Lt. [[Karl Agathon|Karl "Helo" Agathon]]
* Lt. [[Alex Quartararo|Quartararo "Crashdown" Quartararo]]
* Lt. [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
* [[Lyla Ellway|Lyla "Shark" Ellway]]

==See Also==
*[[List of terms (RDM)|List of terms in the Re-imagined Series]]

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Military]]
[[Category:Colonial Military (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]
[[Category: Terminology]]
[[Category: Terminology (RDM)]]

Crossroads, Part I

2007-03-20T06:33:53Z

Steve: Minor edits for spelling, grammar, and POV

{{Episode Data
| title= Crossroads, Part I
| image= 3x19-CrossroadsPartI-TrialJudges.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 19
| guests=
| writer= [[Mark Verheiden]]
| story=
| director= [[Michael Rymer]]
| production= 319
| rating=
| US airdate= 2007-??-??
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population= ?
| prev= [[The Son Also Rises]]
| next= [[Crossroads, Part II]]
}}

== Overview ==
:''Baltar's trial commences, with the prosecution presenting evidence of treason committed on New Caprica amid controversial testimonies from Colonel Tigh and President Roslin.''

== Summary ==
===Teaser===
*[[Laura Roslin]], significantly different in dress and hairstyle, is walking through what appears to be the [[Opera House]]. She searches for and finds little [[Hera Agathon]] walking through the hallways, unable to reach her.
*Also following Hera is her mother [[Sharon Agathon]], who does not appear pleased to see Roslin in pursuit.
*Neither Roslin or Agathon retrieve the child; a [[Number Six]] in white clothing grabs the child as she wakes up.
*The [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] is en route to the [[Ionian nebula]], but it is still several days away.
*Colonel [[Saul Tigh]] is trying to tune into [[Talk Wireless]] or music in [[Joe's bar]]. [[Brendan Costanza]], [[Diana Seelix]] and [[Samuel Anders]] are playing [[Pyramid (RDM)|Pyramid]]. Anders notes Tigh's attempts to find the music.
*[[Tory Foster]] speaks with [[Cassidy]], the prosecuting attorney in [[Gaius Baltar]]'s trial. Foster's assertion that [[Epiphanies|Roslin witnessed Baltar and a Six on Caprica]] doesn't convince Cassidy need for hard evidence.
*Meanwhile, in the brig, Baltar is visited by a member of the press, who wants to give him something. He refuses until she forces it onto him.
*The [[Virtual beings|virtual Six]] appears to console the emotionally tortured Baltar.

===Act 1===
*[[Racetrack]] and [[Skulls]] are conducting reconnaissance to see if any Cylons are following the Fleet jumps away. Her [[Raptor]] hides behind an asteroid as they play cards and wait.
*The trial begins. Cassidy asks the courtroom how loss is measured.
*She notes the number of people who settled on New Caprica, the number who was escaped in the [[Second Exodus]] and the number lost: 5,197 left behind, killed or otherwise missing.
*The attorney claims that the trust put in Baltar was gravely misplaced, and that the ultimate price must be paid.
*[[Romo Lampkin]], Baltar's attorney, immediately asks to change the plea to guilty as a ploy to use reverse psychology to claim that the power of [[w:Mob rule|mob rule]] is trying to sway opinion in the court.
*Lampkin claims that President Roslin is seeking vengeance on Baltar for [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II|her lost election]], and claims that the [[New Caprica]]ns were victims of a hopeless battle. Baltar's decision to surrender to the Cylons had saved lives, he claims, versus what Lampkin claims Roslin would have done -- stand and fight.
*Back on Racetrack's Raptor, five [[Basestar (RDM)|baseships]] suddenly appear and attack. Racetrack's [[FTL]] drive barely comes online in time to allow them to escape an incoming missile.
*Back on ''[[Galactica]]'', in [[CIC]], Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] orders a scan for any [[Cylon transponder|tracking devices]] that may have been left on Fleet ships during the New Caprica siege. At the same time [[Tory Foster]] hands Roslin a cup and a thermos can. Roslin insists on asking the incarcerated [[Caprica-Six]] for information. When Tigh objects, Roslin snaps back, uncharacteristically.
*[[Lee Adama]] enters CIC near Roslin, who is collecting herself in the Weapons Control station. He notices Roslin's cup, which she left on the table, and smells it, detecting something unexpected.
*Caprica-Six is questioned. She suggests that the fuel ship is being tracked by a unique radiation signature emitted by the ship. The [[Virtual beings|virtual Baltar]] appears and convinces her not to cooperate further. Caprica Six retaliates to Tigh's interrogation by recalling [[Ellen Tigh]], inciting Tigh to strike her, and Six to strike back before [[marine]]s intervene and shackle the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]].

===Act 2===
*In court, Tigh is questioned, and asked if Baltar appeared to help the [[New Caprica Resistance|resistance]] in any way. Tigh is noticeably drunk. When questioned about Ellen, Tigh acknowledges her involvement but becomes more withdrawn.
*Lampkin cross-examines about the [[NCP]] [[Precipice|initiation bombing]] and how the resistance attempted to target Baltar. Lampkin continues questions about Ellen Tigh's [[Exodus, Part I|collaboration]] by asking Colonel Tigh if his wife was a collaborator, muddying the differences between Ellen Tigh and Baltar. Lampkin points out that Tigh appears drunk, and Tigh makes matters worse by Tigh hallucinating music.
*Tigh is asked the nature of Ellen's death, and Tigh resolutely answers, claiming that Baltar's inaction made him kill her wife. He reflects a portion of his wife's [[Exodus, Part II|last words]] to tell how he would do anything to have Baltar killed. Tigh is interrupted again by music he thinks he hears.
*In Joe's Bar, Anders turns a eye to strange noises from the bar's public wireless.
*Under testimony, Roslin notes the execution of 200 people under Cylon tyranny.
*Lampkin attempts to get Lee Adama to give some insight about Roslin's testimony and Roslin herself, perhaps to stick it to his father as well.
*Lampkin attempts to play to Adama's sense of justice, warning that failure to do so could get a mistrial.

===Act 3===
*Admiral Adama drags the drunken Tigh to his quarters. The Fleet is nine jumps away from the nebula, and repairs are being made to the fuel ship to keep it from being tracked.
*Tigh says that he can't "smell her anymore" and apologizes for his actions in court. Adama replies that, as his [[Scattered|oldest friend]], he could never embarrass him.
*In the admiral's quarters, Major Adama suggests the idea of sending the fuel ship on a different course to throw off the Cylons temporarily, and the admiral coldly takes it under advisement.
*The two Adamas verbally spar. Admiral Adama angrily accuses his son of helping Lampkin by telling him about what Tigh did to Ellen.
*In response, Major Adama resigns from military duty, while his father accepts the resignation in anger.
*The mood is tense in court when, instead of Lampkin, Lee Adama asks to address the court.
*Lee Adama (in civilian dress) questions President Roslin, but asks if it was Baltar that [[Epiphanies|saved her from cancer]]. When Admiral Adama objects, Lampkin asks for hostile witness latitude, which is given.
*Roslin tells how the cancer was cured. When asked what medications she was currently taking, she says "I don't remember." Asked specifically about [[chamalla]] use, and if she has had hallucinations recently, Roslin counters in the affirmative but notes how it [[Home, Part II|provided the first clues to Earth]] as well as noting Lee Adama's own involvement.
*Before Lee Adama asks his next question, Roslin whispers to him: "Don't do this." He then asks if she was taking chamalla again.
*Admiral Adama tries to overrule the line of questioning but other tribunal judges overrule him, forcing Roslin to answer. She recalls [[Miniseries, Night 1|her fondness for Lee Adama's early leadership]], how calling him "Captain Apollo" way back then had a nice ring to it, but how sad she was at how his behavior has changed.
*Adama notes that chamalla can be sweetened to mask its bitter taste, recalling the cup of tea that Tory gave Roslin at ''Galactica'''s CIC, which gave him the clue to her use of the drug.
*Roslin confirms that she is taking chamalla again. She then challenges counselor Adama to finished what he had started with his last question. When he asks her why was taking the drug again, she tells the court that she is taking the drug again because her cancer has returned.

===Act 4===
*[[Anastasia Dualla]] packs her bags and leaves her husband in disgust over his questioning of Roslin and his usage of the justice system she believes should be dismantled and rebuilt to make it work again.
*On ''[[Colonial One]]'', reporters pepper President Roslin about her cancer, how it will be treated, and if she planned on using Hera Agathon's blood again. The line of questioning infuriates Foster, but Roslin asks her to leave the press conference. When [[Karen Fallbrook]] asks how long the President has to live, an unflinching Roslin repeats the same question at the reporter, leaving Fallbrook speechless.
*After the press conference, Roslin angrily criticizes her aide, complaining that Foster is off her game. Foster claims that she hasn't been sleeping well.
*In his quarters, the drunken Tigh still hears the mysterious music and tries to track its source.
*[[Helo]] arrives in CIC as interim [[Executive officer]] and finds Lt. [[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]], who briefs him. The [[tylium]] fuel ship decoy plan is nearing completion, but there are no further reports of Cylon forces. Three jumps from the nebula.
*Helo remembers a certain smell in the air when trouble was brewing, recalling the weather on Caprica. He believes "something over the horizon" is coming, something that doesn't bode well for the Fleet. "A storm is coming," he says.
*The music that Tigh, Anders, and Foster are hearing appears to be coming from the ship itself.

===Bonus Scene===

* Asking Lampkin, Adama asks about the guiltiness of Baltar, but Lampkin plays to Adama's justice about how all of them are guilty.

== Questions ==

* Did Tigh continue drinking all the time, or did he stop for a while after he seemingly pulled himself together again?

* Is there a budding romance developing between Anders and Seelix?

* Why are Tigh, Anders, and Tory apparently the only ones who can hear the ever increasing music?

* Where is the music coming from?

* Is Roslin back on using chamalla extract because of prescription from Cottle or is she attempting to receive visions of the future again?

* Did Athena receive the same dream that Roslin found herself in during the teaser of the episode?

* Would Athena and Helo be willing to donate some of Hera's blood to save Roslin from her cancer?

* Would Hera's blood have any effect on the cancer now since the cancer apparently has resisted Hera's innate immunology?

* With Helo temporarily assigned as XO, who has replaced him as CAG?

== Analysis ==

* [[Samuel Anders]] wears a uniform with rank insignia and hangs around with Seelix and Costanza. Together with being addressed as "you [[nugget]]s", this indicates that he joined the pilot training program.
* The Cylons have apparently been tracking the fleet since the destruction of the Temple of Five. Their strategy was to delay jumping into any system that the Fleet has been until after six plus hours to ensure that the Fleet would not realize that they were being tracked.
* Adama's military experience had come into play again when he ordered that the decoy Raptor stay for a total of 12 hours. This is reminicent of his previous strategies such as the decision to attack the Cylon tylium factory in "[[The Hand of God (RDM)]]." When he changed their regular pattern and stayed longer than the Cylons had expected, he finally caught them in the act.
* Lee Adama immediately displayed signs of fear once Roslin challenged him to "'''finished what you(he) started'''" after asking her if she was taking chamalla again. This indicates that either Lee suspected that Roslin's cancer has returned or he was beginning to feel that his actions are treacherous.
* Helo's comment to Gaeta about a "'storm is coming'" highlights Adama's comment to him at the end of [[The Woman King]], specifically to how Helo has been many times the voice in the wilderness. His ability to sense or remember certain details hails back to the final scene in [[Rapture]] when he remember that Thrace had painted the picture of the mandala.
* Lampkin's opening statement is another prime example of his rhetorical skill. He uses reverse psychology to goad the mob to respond and eventually lead one man in the audience to state his desire to see Baltar die. This display of emotion played in Lampkin's favor as it would make the judges wary of giving into the mob mentality. Secondly, he cleverly paints Roslin as a fanatic by proposing that had Roslin been president when the Cylons invaded New Caprica, the entire human race would have been exterminated. However, as [[Precipice|Zarek has stated to Roslin]], if she had been president, the settlement and eventual invasion of New Caprica would have never taken place.
* It appears the closer the Fleet is to the nebula, Tigh, Anders, and Tory hear the music increasingly, even to the point of exhaustion.
* There appears to be a growing movement amongst the Fleet that believe Baltar has some sort of healing or divine abilities. His internal-Six doesn't allow him to brush off these devoted followers aside, indicating that his belief about himself that he is the "'''Chosen One'''" is coming true.
* Lee Adama's actions towards Adama and Roslin have led to another impasse between himself and Dualla. Lee Adama has come to a point where he has been alienated from his father, from Roslin, and his wife, in an attempt to gain some sort of respect from Lampkin and to act in accordance with his noble conceptions of justice by following in his grandfather's footsteps.

== Notes ==

*The episode has one of the most sparse musical score yet. The only major pieces are during Roslin's dream at the beginning and the music Tigh keeps hearing. According to a [http://bearmccreary.com/html/blog/blogmain.htm blog entry] by composer [[Bear McCreary]], director [[Michael Rymer]] and the editors decided not to use any music during the court room part, in order to let the scenes speak for themselves.
*It's the first episode without an intro sequence, thus increasing the effective running time a little bit. Because of that, no updated [[Survivor Count]] is available.
*The bitterness of chamalla and that it can be sweetened to make it taste better, is first mentioned by the oracle [[Dodona Selloi]] in "[[Exodus, Part I]]".

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

== Official Statements ==

== Guest Stars ==
*[[Mark Sheppard]] as [[Romo Lampkin]]
*[[Keegan Connor Tracy]] as Young Woman
*[[Chelah Horsdal]] as [[Cassidy]]
*[[Susan Hogan]] as [[Franks]]
*[[William Samples]] as Judge Number Two

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:A to Z|Crossroads, Part I]]
[[Category:Episode Guide|Crossroads, Part I]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)|Crossroads, Part I]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Rymer]]
[[Category:RDM]]

The Son Also Rises

2007-03-13T06:48:54Z

Steve: spelling and grammar

Talk:The Son Also Rises/Archive 1

2007-03-13T06:44:05Z

Steve:

== Ick..Not a "Trial" Cliffhanger?! ==

I was hoping for a little action cliffhanger, a'la ''Star Trek: Next Generation'''s "Best of Both Worlds, Part I." But I suspect we're getting "The Trial of Gaius Baltar." The title of this ep suggests that this is a Lee Adama story, but the curious Q&A with Katee Sackhoff a few weeks ago might indicate something else...I just don't know. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:39, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:Spence, what interview are you referring to and what did Katee say that makes you so curious?--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 08:15, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::See if you can glean something about Sackhoff and episode 16 [http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=starbase here]. I was at this SF convention, where she noted her filming ended with episode 16 for the season, I believe. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:57, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Promo Pics==

Are up [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/gallery/000a8e4s here]. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:25, 10 February 2007 (CST)

:I'm more curious of the updated Maelstrom pics. There's one where Starbuck is with someone who appears to be a sister or an oracle. Uh-oh. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:23, 10 February 2007 (CST)

:: The info with the photo says it is an oracle: Georgia Craig as Oracle Brenn. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:20, 10 February 2007 (CST)

Holy Frak! It's [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000yhy12/g288 Agent Smith]! --[[User:Webbie|Webbie]] 21:38, 12 February 2007 (CST)

:He reminds me of David Hewlett, Elton John and the Blues Brothers, although he does look a lot like Agent Smith from the neck up. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:10, 12 February 2007 (CST)

== Episode Description ==

Since I can't edit the page, here is the episode descrip for The Son Also Rises from Tvguide.com

"Lee is ordered to protect Baltar's lawyer, Romo Lampkin (Mark Sheppard), after Baltar's first lawyer dies in what is suspected to be an act of sabotage; bombings cause the crew to examine theories about the culprits." {{unsigned|LOSDucard}}

== Predictions? ==

The ol' [[DRADIS|crystal ball]]'s coming in pretty fuzzy this week, everybody. Shame, too. I got such good reception last week. Anyway, here we go!
*The Adamas mourn Starbuck. This is going to be a recurring theme for the rest of the season. Not that the season has long to go.
*Anders is seen at Kara's memorial, likely for the last time this season.
*Lee and Dee are having problems again. Lt. Anastasia Adama is jealous of the depth of Lee's feelings for Kara, but she also empathizes for her husband's pain. She's conflicted by these emotions, but ultimately decides to support him.
*We learn that Lee has been studying his grandfather's law books in what little free time he has.
*I have a feeling we'll be seeing a little of Caprica Six this episode, but she, Phantom Six, and Athena are likely the only Cylons (or Cylon-appearing angels) we see this episode. I honestly doubt we'll see the Cylons again until the end of the finale. Like I said in earlier predictions, I think that boxing the Threes had a major effect on the Cylon in general and it's taking them time to adjust.
*Hot Dog gets promoted to Viper training officer. Like [[User:Talos|Talos]] said, he's the best of what's left.
*We see Baltar's lawyer for the first time: Galvatron!
That's all I've got for this week, folks. See you at ''The Crossroads!'' --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 15:08, 9 March 2007 (CST)
==Social dissent is not the same as terrorism==

I don't agree with this in the analysis portion of the page:

"Cally Tyrol correctly states that the Cylons wouldn't need to even fire one shot because they may find the Fleet had torn itself apart because of humanity's tendency towards self-destruction. However, it is also clear that she has not realized that she and the many workers are just as much apart of the problems when they essentially risked the existence of the Feet with their work strikes, the refusal of refining tylium , and disobedience toward military orders (Dirty Hands)."

As long as the strikes remained non violent killing someone's defense attorney and trying to kill others is not the same as striking for one's rights. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 12:20, 12 March 2007 (CDT)

Never said it was terrorism. I just took issue with Cally's little speech about how the fleet could tear itself apart because of Baltar and that the Cylons wouldn't even need to take a shot. It eventually led to her prejudice against Cylons, and in particular, Athena. I just thought it was pretty hypocritical of Cally because the events of Dirty Jobs highlighted something that Adama would never tolerate, military personnel taking part in a civil strike. For Adama, and his seriousness of having Cally be executed for treason, the strike, the lack of fuel, and disobeying direct orders are all up there.

Either case, could reword that section, but the main point I was trying to get across was the irony and the hypocrisy of listening to Cally talk about how the fleet is tearing itself apart when she and others have participated in it as well. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 12:27, 12 March 2007 (CDT)

==Lampkin's "kleptomania"==
The article in its current forum is arguably contradicting itself in describing Lampkin's thefts as both kleptomaniacal and intentionally manipulative behaviour. According to Wikipedia, kleptomania is "an inability or great difficultly in resisting impulses of stealing" and describes this as compulsive or uncontrolled behaviour. But, as is noted in a number of places in this article, Lampkin's actions are deliberately manipulative and highly controlled, rather than simply compulsive. He's carefully chosen the stolen objects to produce specific results. So in my view, these two explanations for his thefts are mutually exclusive, and what's seen on screen lends more support to the idea that he steals consciously and deliberately for specific reasons, rather than due to kleptomania. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? --[[User:Steve|Steve]] 01:44, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

Dirty Hands

2007-03-02T10:37:08Z

Steve: /* Analysis */ Correct tense

{{Episode Data
| title= Dirty Hands
| image= 3x16-DirtyHands-TyrolSelix.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 16
| guests=
| writer= [[Anne Cofell Saunders]] [[Jane Espenson]]
| story=
| director= [[Wayne Rose]]
| production= 316
| rating=
| US airdate= 2007-02-25
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population=41,400
| prev=[[A Day in the Life]]
| next=[[Maelstrom]]
| itunes=http://click.linksynergy.com/fs-bin/stat?id=VWbyALbmqZY&offerid=78941&type=3&subid=0&tmpid=1826&RD_PARM1=http%253A%252F%252Fphobos.apple.com%252FWebObjects%252FMZStore.woa%252Fwa%252FviewTVSeason%253Fi%253D215973805%2526id%253D200852806%2526s%253D143441%2526partnerId%253D30
}}

== Overview ==

: ''Amidst unsafe and harsh conditions in the maintenance and production areas of the Fleet, as well [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]]'s [[My Triumphs, My Mistakes|personal diatribe]] stirring feelings of dissent amongst the working class, Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] must wrestle whether or not to resurrect the worker's union he began on [[New Caprica]].''

== Summary ==
===Teaser===

*A group of deckhands, with Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] at the head, are prepping [[Margaret Edmondson|Racetrack's]] [[Raptor]] for a mission.
*Tyrol reminds [[Anthony Figurski|Figurski]], [[Pollux]] and [[Sanchez]] not to leave as they have to work on additional engine refits. A number of deckhands, one literally missing a hand and using a prosthetic arm, are busy with their work. Complaints about fatigue are deflected by Tyrol.
*Viewers see [[tylium]] fuel, refined from its ore state into a gasoline-like liquefied state, being pumped into the Raptor.
*[[Diana Seelix|Seelix]] is returning bags of cleaned laundry to Figurski, Pollux, and [[Redford]]. She's not too happy as, despite high marks on the written exam for [[Viper (RDM)|Viper pilot]] flight training, Seelix has been denied promotion because she was considered to have mission-essential duties and could not be transferred. Pollux is left surprised, believing that others don't want the "knuckledraggers" to rise in rank.
*Tyrol, who heard about the failed promotion from the [[CAG]], apologizes to Seelix. Figurski teases too much about Seelix's fate and her unglamorous laundry work, which causes Seelix to attack Figurski before Chief Tyrol breaks it up. Seelix goes back to laundry delivery, obviously depressed in spite of Tyrol's attempt to have her look at her work on the [[hangar deck]] as critical to the Fleet's safety.
*Racetrack and [[Skulls]], her [[ECO]], launch from the lift from the hangar deck to the port [[flight pod]]. They fly through the motley of civilian ships and begin plotting their course, passing the [[Space Park]], when a malfunction occurs in the reaction control jets and one of the main engines. The vehicle is out of control.
*Racetrack yells for Skulls to sit in the copilot seat and moments later, both eject from the wayward vehicle. The Raptor tumbles on a collision course with ''[[Colonial One]]'' at the same area of the ship where President [[Laura Roslin]] and [[Tory Foster]] are handling their daily business.

=== Act 1 ===
*Admiral [[William Adama]] is assisting President Roslin with moving her office area to another section of ''Colonial One'' while the damaged bulkhead of the ship is repaired. The presidential flagship suffered only a glancing blow from Racetrack's Raptor, but hit with sufficient force to cause a dozen injuries, including to Tory Foster. No one was killed, fortunately.
*When Roslin notes the cramped confines, Adama offers Roslin any of his beds on ''[[Galactica]]''. A moment of humorous silence hangs as Adama realizes the unintended double-meaning and Roslin smiles.
*The two leaders of the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] discuss the cause of the Raptor's malfunction. So far, the investigation suggests a fuel contamination problem. Roslin finds the matter unsettling since, before, the refinery ship was always reliable and timely.
*The leaders discuss [[Xeno Fenner]], who has complained about numerous labor-related problems despite the overall significance of the overall survival of humanity. Adama is impatient with Fenner's effectiveness over the last two weeks and wants to get the Fleet back on its path to [[Earth]].
*Roslin, who [[Home, Part II|began the serious quest for Earth]], can't resist teasing Adama, a [[Home, Part I|skeptic about the legends of Earth]] despite his claims of [[Miniseries, Night 2|knowing where it was]]. Adama plays along with Roslin, asking "Have I ever doubted it?"
*Fenner meets with President Roslin and Admiral Adama. Fenner complains of exhaustion, very long shift hours and other problems that go unheeded throughout his operation by the senior staff. Adama reminds Fenner that, because of the backlog of fuel processing and distribution between the ships of the Fleet, they have fuel for maybe one or two [[FTL|jumps]]. Both leaders warn that safety is in danger and that fuel resupply is imperative.
*Fenner questions if intentionally causing a slowdown or other problems with the fuel processing would yield some results.
*When Fenner quotes a passage from an underground book written by [[Gaius Baltar]] to reinforce his case ("If you hear the people, you never have to fear the people") Roslin is incensed by the quote and has the [[marine]]s in the room arrest Fenner.
*Roslin explains to Adama that Baltar's lawyer had smuggled out the book, called ''[[My Triumphs, My Mistakes]]'', which has been copied about the Fleet. Roslin and Adama discuss how it is causing class strife throughout the Fleet. A visibly angered Roslin, her voice quieting to almost a whisper in her usual manner when in such a state, says, "I am thinking of having a good old-fashioned book burning."
*In their quarters, the Tyrols are having a meal. [[Cally Tyrol]] admonishes her husband from eating too much, recalling their recovery from [[A Day In The Life|vacuum exposure]] and apparent diet requirements to aid in it.
*The two eventually discuss the recent labor problems. Cally, reciting passages from Baltar's book, notes how work throughout the Fleet is divided by class lines, which also happen to be related to how work was culturally based on the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]]. Prosperous colonists from Caprica, Tauron and Virgon were mostly in administrative or professional jobs such as politicians and pilots, while colonists from places such as Gemenon, Sagittaron, and Aerelon, which were agrarian or otherwise raw-material sources, had primarily blue-collar populations. When Galen comments that [[Anastasia Dualla|Lieutenant Dualla]] was from Sagittaron, Cally answers that she was promoted only because of her [[Lee Adama|husband's Caprica status]].
*Chief Tyrol gets a call from Admiral Adama, who tells him of Fenner's arrest for "pissing off the President." Adama orders him to get to the refinery ship and get the fuel supply running. Cally recalls the old union on [[New Caprica]] and that, while the scenery has changed, the people who desired change in then-President Baltar's leadership were still around.
*Roslin visits Gaius Baltar with marine contingent, intent on confiscating any further passages of his clandestine book. She lies to Baltar, telling him that the book was intercepted before it could be mass-produced, and that she was dying to read the latest entries. Roslin objects to Baltar's portrayal as a "man of the people" in his book.
*She forces a strip search of Baltar before his [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations|virtual Six]] convinces him to give up the passages to save his dignity.
*Tyrol arrives to investigate the refinery ship's operation and meets with [[Cavett]], who remembers Tyrol's work as the union leader. He shows him a large cavernous room with a single comparatively small pile of tylium in its center. When asked about the amount of tylium available, Cavett notes that the Fleet would be lucky to get out of this system.
*Cavett notes that the ship is as loud as an "A-bomb" when in full production, and as equally safe.
*The conditions are squalid at best, as many workers move the granular tylium through its conversion process from ore to precursor and fuel. The working conditions are less of the problem, as workers are tired and have very little time off. Work is going much too slowly, and Cavett reminds Tyrol of the harsh work schedules that have greatly reduced fuel production.
*The group enters a conveyor area, where many workers appear to be cleaning or making minor repairs. The refining process appears to have stopped. Despite Cavett's pleas, Tyrol asks him to start up the process. A laborer named [[Milo]] tells Tyrol that the system won't work. When pressed as to the reason, Milo is silent.
*Tyrol looks around to find that several critical pressure relief seals are missing, making the machinery unusable. The workers have intentionally hidden the seals as a protest for Fenner's arrest and an attempt to get improved working conditions.
*Later, on ''Galactica'', Tyrol reports to Admiral Adama and Roslin on his initial investigations on the refinery ship. A search has not turned up the seals. Since the group did not harm him or contaminate the existing fuel, he believes that the workers are buying time to get their pleas heard.
*He notes that some of the people on the refinery ship have been working almost continuously since the original [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Cylon attack on the Colonies]] with no chance to transfer or take a break.
*Roslin acknowledges the hard work, but notes that work is equally hard on the algae processing, or munitions or waste processing teams. When Tyrol asks to cede to some labor demands to get things working again, Roslin objects, calling it extortion, and asks for the names of the leaders to put them under arrest, after which Tyrol reluctantly notes Cavett. Roslin curtly dismisses Tyrol when he tries to continue his pleas.

===Act 2===
*Tyrol visits Fenner and Cavett. Cavett, who was incarcerated on New Caprica by the Cylons, is experiencing hallucinations and is injuring himself. Tyrol asks for the seals, to Fenner's anger.
*Tyrol yells at both to tell him where, and Fenner relents and tells the location of the seals.
*The seals are replaced. Milo asks to flip the switch. Tyrol asks Milo's age: 12. The production resumes. Tyrol looks around to see many very young faces; many of the refinery workers are children and adolescents.
*On ''Colonial One'', Tyrol explains that the parents are passing down their skills to their children, and that the children are thus automatically stuck in their parent's careers instead of choosing an own path for their future. Roslin understands the problem, and offers to gather a list of colonists with any relevant experience that can be used to supplement the workers on the refinery ship.
*A young man named [[Danny Noon]], pulled from [[Dogsville]], questions Tyrol on the hangar deck on why he is tasked to work on the refinery ship. As Figurski tells Tyrol of the young man's farming experience, Noon denies any actual experience, having worked for one summer for money for college before the Cylon attack on the Colonies. Before Tyrol can consider reassigning the man, Figurski warns that letting the young man go may cause more to deny their experience as well, setting back the conscription process. Tyrol does not interfere.
*As Tyrol walks away, he finds a copy of Baltar's underground manifesto. Turning the page, he notes one page entitled "The Emerging Aristocracy and the Emerging Underclass." He decides to go to Baltar.
*Interviewing Baltar (who now knows that his book has circulated), Tyrol tries to separate fact from fiction. Baltar (now possessing only a mattress on the floor, with no bed frame) explains that he is really born on a dairy farm outside of [[Cuffle's Breath Wash]] on Aerelon. When Tyrol questions further, particularly Baltar's posh accent, Baltar explains (as he begins to speak in his native Aerelon voice) that he began to mimic Caprican speech starting at 10 years old so that people would not believe he was from Aerelon, a "drab, ugly rock condemned to be the food basket for the twelve worlds." Baltar left Aerelon after his 18th birthday.
*When Tyrol indicates that the strife was left on the Colonies and begins to leave the [[brig]], Baltar disagrees, indicating that the social strife has followed the people, and that the aristocracy will continue to hold on to their power.

===Act 3===
*The fresh labor on the refinery ship is helping and tylium ore is again being refined, per Fenner. He notes that some problems in the process was where the contaminants were accumulating and that work is being done to clean up the process.
*A malfunction occurs on the refinery ship conveyor, but Fenner warns that the belt has to be repaired while running, else, shutting it down will seize the whole system. Worse, not fixing the problem soon could cause an explosive chain reaction with the ore stuck in the system.
*Tyrol tries to get the problem part, but can't reach it. Danny Noon manages to reach underneath to restore the belt to operation but suffers a piercing injury as he exits from under the belt.
*Watching this suffering becomes too much for Tyrol. He slowly walks over to the belt systems main power levers and pulls them, shutting down the entire fuel operation. He tells everyone that the plant is offline and that the workers are on strike.
*Several pilots, including [[Kara Thrace]], are trying to get a flight, but Pollux tells them that they are on strike, and that only vital missions are being serviced.
*Chief Tyrol is arrested in placed in ''Galactica's'' brig. Admiral Adama tells him that the Colonial Fleet shoots mutineers like Tyrol and the deckhands.

===Act 4===
*Tyrol tries to explain his side, but Adama warns that no one on this ship can disobey orders. To prove how far he will go, he makes a phone call.
*Adama orders Cally Tyrol to be taken to the starboard hangar deck. When the Chief asks why, Adama tells him he is taking her there to be shot as a mutineer. He then states that he will continue with the executions, starting with the rebellious deck crew, if he has to.
*Tyrol is terrified, but Adama continues to elaborate: Orders, no matter how one feels about them, must be adhered to. If even one person hesitates to fulfill an order or feels that orders are optional, everyone will perish, including Tyrol's [[Nicholas Tyrol|son]]. Adama tells him that this is not his desire, but that he would put ten Callys against the wall to be shot to ensure the survival of the Fleet.
*Tyrol resigns. Adama releases him and lets him speak to Cally, who mistakenly believes that Tyrol has won. Adama releases her. Adama releases the Chief as well, reminding him that he wanted to speak with the President on the labor issues.
*On ''Colonial One'', Tyrol and President Roslin talk over drinks about the cultural vocations that some colonists are locked into by birth, which Roslin understands but cannot see how to change. Tyrol suggests a plan where other colonists, including professional types who inhabit ''Colonial One,'' get their hands dirty with many tasks, allowing some sharing of low-level chores. For high-stress jobs, Tyrol recommends crew rotations. Roslin agrees.
*Tyrol recommends a training program, but Roslin defers it and wants Tyrol's union to give some ground in collective bargaining. When Tyrol is confused about the mention of a union he believed long gone, Roslin explains the necessity of the union and his leadership to ensure that the Fleet doesn't tear itself apart.
*Later, back on the hangar deck, Chief Tyrol is announcing work assignments when Captain Thrace arrives to complain about a missing [[nugget]] who did not report for training. She asks for Diana Seelix, who is both visibly confused and excited.
* After berating Seelix for not checking the duty roster to see where she should have reported, Thrace then tells her that she is "out of uniform". Tyrol, in on the ruse, states that he can fix that part of the problem and presents Seelix with ensign pins, promoting her to the basic officer's rank needed to train as a pilot.
*Thrace continues to play the nasty drill officer and orders the smiling Seelix off to the pilots ready room. Thrace herself cracks a smile as Tyrol asks her to "be nice" to her new recruit.

===Bonus Scene===
*Chief Tyrol has finished sorting out a handful of children who were mistakenly picked in the pool of conscripts to aid on the refinery ship. He returns to his quarters to pick up some paperwork.
*Cally Tyrol notes that most of the conscripts are from poor colonies, and that the work involved actually doesn't involve any genuine skills. She noticed that no one from ''Colonial One'' was in the list of conscripts.
*Galen berates Cally for what he feels is yet another recitation from Gaius Baltar's book. He warns her that, if he pushes too hard with the Fleet's leadership, they may pull him off of the assignment of assigning conscripts, where someone like Colonel [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] may be ordered to manage, with more dire results for everyone.
*Cally tries to encourage her husband to continue fighting for the rights of the workers as he did as the union leader on [[New Caprica]]. As she continues to press for his support, he tells her that the New Caprica union is over and leaves without further discussion.

== Questions ==
* Will Baltar's book help his image among the working class of the [[the Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] in his upcoming trial?
* Is it possible that [[Tom Zarek]] somehow assisted Baltar in the writing and distribution of his book?
* Has the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]]'s [[tylium]] reserve been re-stocked at all since "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]"?
* Have these class differentiations amongst the colonies been problematic before the destruction of the Twelve Colonies?
* Besides occupations that are related to the "working class" and other professions such as news reporters, what other occupations exist within the Fleet besides those positions found on ''Colonial One'' and ''Galactica''?
* Have the Colonials truly lost the Cylons or are the Cylons continuing on different plans?
* Why wasn't [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] mentioned along with [[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] as another member of the "working class" that rose to be part of the Fleet leadership as he was born on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]] and started his career as an enlisted man?
* Besides Baltar's testimony, is there any real solid evidence that Baltar was born on Aerelon? Official statements by Ronald D. Moore confirm the truth of this backstory, but can Baltar actually prove it to his fellow Colonial citizens?
* With the information provided by "[[Unfinished Business]]" and "[[A Day in the Life]]", have the attitude and admiration towards Admiral Adama changed significantly to the point that his crew feel more indifferent or resentful of him?
* Besides the six colonies that were mentioned, how were the other colonies, such as Picon, considered?
* Will Tyrol tell Cally about what really happened between his meeting with Adama? Will Cally be told that Adama originally planned on executing her?
* Besides the damage to the bulkheads on ''Colonial One'', were any other ships damaged by the runaway Raptor? Did it actually explode as Racetrack was afraid that it would do before the ejection?

== Analysis ==
* Not having any real options for defending his actions during the Cylon occupation of New Caprica, Baltar has opted to use class warfare as a distraction from the crimes for which he will stand trial and to drum up support as a victim of "the aristocracy".
* Adama's explanation and pending orders to execute Cally and the rest of the knuckledraggers to force Tyrol to call off the strike is reminiscent of the style of leadership found with Admiral Cain. However, once Tyrol relented and called off the strike, Adama immediately displayed his familiar style of leadership by informing Tyrol of his meeting with Roslin.
* This is the first time that an emergency cockpit ejection from a Raptor is shown during the series. When the craft is fully manned, only the pilots could eject, leaving the crew in the aft compartment behind. However, the cockpit canopy is probably the only part of the hull that can be detached. Whether the remaining crew would survive is debatable as usually the pilots - including the [[ECO]] - are the only ones who have pressurized suits equipped. If the rest of the crew, such as marines or passengers, were suited up, it might be possible for the aft crew to survive if the side entrance door to the Raptor is also designed to blow out in such an emergency.
* Ever since her murder of Boomer and following detention and eventual release, Cally has displayed an attitude of disrespect towards the Fleet leadership, especially to Adama recently. Her recent demeanor and naive assumption that Adama would not do anything more than arrest the strikers may highlight a growing problem amongst the military workers that are beginning to dissent from the leadership.
* This episode, as well as "[[The Woman King]]" display an ongoing theme since Season 2 that focuses on how human beings are self-destructive by nature without any Cylon intervention. As was stated in "[[A Day In The Life]]", the Fleet hadn't encountered any Cylon forces for approximately 2 months. This state of complacency has allowed the typical in-fighting amongst the colonials to resume, especially with the depreciating state of quality of life amongst the ships in the fleet.

== Notes ==

* A number of main characters are not present at all during this episode: [[Lee Adama]], [[Sharon Agathon]], [[Karl Agathon]], [[Saul Tigh]], [[Felix Gaeta]], and [[Anastasia Dualla]].
* According to [[Bradley Thompson]], this episode was originally a different story titled "Our Enemies, Ourselves". When developing "[[The Woman King]]", it was felt that both episodes dealt with the same themes. As a result, "Dirty Hands" was created instead.
* The [[w:79th Academy Awards|79th Academy Awards]] were shown during the episode. The ratings should be taken ''lightly''.
* The prop department still hasn't produced any Ensign [[Military Ranks (RDM)|rank insignia]] yet. Like in "[[Scar]]", Lieutenant j.g. insignia are used instead.
* While [[Galen Tyrol]] has completely recovered, his wife is still dealing with the injuries she sustained in "[[A Day in the Life]]".
* One of the deckhands has lost an arm, but is using a prosthesis to work.
* [[Dogsville]] is still in use.
* Baltar reveals that he is from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]]. He displays his native accent, traces of which he claimed to have heard in Sharon Valerii's voice in "[[Flesh and Bone]]".
* The Fleet's reserves of refined [[tylium]] have become dangerously low.
* [[Cally]] notes [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]] and [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Virgon|Virgon]] as two of the more affluent colonies.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

*''Adama offers Roslin accommodations aboard ''Galactica
:'''Adama''': If the quarters become cramped, you're always welcome in one of my beds…in a manner of speaking.

* ''[[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] talking to [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] about his [[My_Triumphs%2C_My_Mistakes|book]]:''
: '''Tyrol''': Why do I have such a hard time picturing you milking cows and shoveling manure?
: '''Baltar''': Lack of imagination.
: '''Tyrol''': Or maybe that your little tale is manure.
: (...)
: '''Baltar''': I don't sound like I'm from [[Aerelon]]?
: '''Tyrol''': No.
: '''Baltar''': Well you know I take that as a particular complement. I don't know about you, but I've always found the Aerelon dialect to be particularly hard on the ears.
:''(Baltar begins speaking with an Aerelon accent)''
: '''Baltar''': Something about the consonants that scrape the back of the throat. Course I should know an awful lot about my native tongue, I spent hours on it in trying to overcome it. Do you have any idea how hard it is for a ten year old boy to change the way he speaks? To unlearn everything he ever learned, so that one day, one day there might be the small hope that he might be considered as not comin' from Aerelon.
:''(Baltar speaks with his usual accent)''
: '''Baltar''': Maybe I don't know, [[Caprica]]... Caprica... oh to be Caprican, the seat of politics, culture, art, science, learning. And what was Aerelon, just a drab ugly rock condemned to be the food basket for the twelve worlds, and that's how we were treated, like servants, like laborers, like working-class. You know you would have fitted right in there Chief, lots of men who like to work with their hands, and uh, grab a pint down at the pub and...
:''(Baltar again speaks with his Aerelon accent)''
: '''Baltar''': ...finish off the evenin' with a good old fashioned fight.
:''(Baltar returns to speaking as he normally does)''
: '''Baltar''': Oh yes, I left Aerelon after my eighteenth birthday, I turned my back on my family, my heritage, all of them, of course it doesn't matter though, they're all dead now...

== Official Statements ==
Information from the podcast:

* This episode was originally focused on [[Anastasia Dualla]] and the Saggitaron storyline that had started in "[[The Woman King]]". Story ideas that were considered included a scene where two ships within the Fleet would fire upon each other because of a conflict that dealt with the Saggitaron problem. However, it was realized that there were many hurdles and issues that had to be dealt with regards to the Saggitaron idea, and it was this episode that finally broke the storyline idea.
* The stripping scene within Baltar's cell originally had Roslin completely strip Baltar of all his clothes and having the last pages of his book fall out. RDM wanted the conflicting feelings for Baltar in which he felt a victory that he did not break, but also humiliation of being completed stripped down. The actors, though, persuaded RDM that the scene would work if Baltar did maintain his dignity.
* The refinery ship scene in the shop was originally a sugar processing factory that was redressed to appear as a tylium refinery. RDM goes into detail about how difficult it is to show different vessels within the Fleet simply because it would require these ships to "look right" within the Fleet.
* RDM confirmed that in the [[series bible]], Baltar did in fact come from a rural community. When the story originally focused on [[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]], Baltar was written to be from Sagittaron. However, once the story concept changed, RDM wanted to still keep the scene that had Dualla meet Baltar in his cell, but change Dualla with Tyrol. Because the story no longer needed a connection to the Sagittarons, Baltar's home planet was changed to Aerelon.

== Guest Stars ==
*[[Aaron Douglas]] as Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]
*[[Nicki Clyne]] as Specialist [[Cally Tyrol]]
*[[Rekha Sharma]] as [[Tory Foster]]
*[[Jen Halley]] as [[Seelix]]
*[[Don Thompson]] as [[Anthony Figurski]]
*[[Leah Cairns]] as [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
*[[Colin Lawrence]] as [[Hamish McCall|Hamish "Skulls" McCall]]
*[[Samantha Ferris]] as [[Pollux]]
*[[David Patrick Green]] as [[Xeno Fenner]]
*[[Wesley Salter]] as [[Redford]]
*[[Jerry Wasserman]] as [[Cavett]]

== External Links ==

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:Episodes written by Anne Cofell Saunders]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Jane Espenson]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Wayne Rose]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Dirty Hands/Archive 1

2007-03-02T09:54:24Z

Steve: /* Why "Marxist-Leninist"? */

== Episode Title Change? ==
The SciFi Schedule as ''Our Enemies, Ourselves'' as the episode after [[A Day in the Life]] on 2/25/07. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:48, 7 January 2007 (CST)
:''Our Enemies, Ourselves'' was the original title before it was changed. See the [[BW:OC]] page for explanation by Bradley --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 09:01, 20 February 2007 (CST)

== Locked Reason ==
Please read the blog [http://blog.battlestarwiki.org/2007/02/18/wiki-addicts/ here]. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:00, 18 February 2007 (CST)

== Predictions! ==

Sorry these are so late in the week. I came down with [[Lymphocytic_encephalitis | something]] pretty horrible and, for a few days, was barely able to sit up, much less contribute to a Wiki.
Anyway, I'm going to try to be a bit more serious with this one than I have in the last couple of weeks. I just don't have as much time to gaze into the crystal ball like I did between TEOJ and Rapture - not that that's a complaint in any way! As always, you can place your bets (in cubits; your Earth money is of no value to us) at [[User_talk:Slander | my]] or [[User_talk:BklynBruzer | BB's]] Talk pages.
*Somebody of middling importance is gonna die this episode. The crystal ball is telling me it'll be Seelix, but my gut tells me it'll be Gaeta. I'd rather it was Seelix, but I feel they've been setting up Gaeta to take a bullet this whole season. I desperately hope they don't kill off Cally. Nicki Clyne is cuteness ''incarnate''.
*Galen Tyrol bucks authority in a big way and ''doesn't'' get away with it, thus breaking the ''Battlestar'' trend of getting away with stuff because Bill Adama needs you.
*We find out why the Cylons have been so quiet: Boxing the Threes wasn't easy. The Threes didn't want to go and they caused a lot of damage on their way out. The entire Cylon expeditionary fleet (the Earth-bound fleet) is currently dead in space as a result, with no way to contact other Cylon ships. (They're out of range.)
*The Colonials find abandoned spaceship repair facilities constructed and then abandoned by the 13th Tribe. They begin the long, slow process of repairing the damage to their own ships using equipment that's been floating in space for thousands of years and thus isn't in the best of shape, nor is it 100% safe to use. The round-the-clock, hazardous labor required to repair, adapt, and then use the equipment is what leads to Tyrol's strike.
*Frustrated by his people's inability to repair their own base stars, Galvatron contacts the Colonial fleet, turning to his most hated enemies for help. The Colonials respond by sending the SuicideGirls in with nukes to wipe out the Cylons, but those pierced punkette pixie pilots pooch the plan and miss the Resurrection Ship.
*Hot Dog finally sees Cottle about his rash. Cottle berates him and issues him some of his most closely-guarded medical supplies: A box of rubbers.
Should be an intense episode, overall. Some of these predictions are more in line with rest-of-season possibilities than single episode speculation, but they're from my gut. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:56, 22 February 2007 (CST)

:I've been mulling over how the Fleet might get some more aid to fix what they have, short of yet another escaped battlestar or some other deus ex machina device. The idea of finding old Thirteenth Tribe stuff makes sense; unlike the Colonials, the 13th Tribe PLANNED to leave, it seems, and had taken lots of materials to help them do so. A portable shipdock? Maybe. Sounds fun, anyhow.

:On Gaeta: You're right; I thought it was Cally in this last episode, but was happily wrong. It's still up in the air. The problem with the lack of all Threes makes very good sense; the Cylons aren't good as individuals, and plucking the Threes away makes for a lot of disorientation. The last two "predictions" are on the mark, as usual. But wait--isn't the season 3 cliffhanger going to be a big battle between the insane intellects of Galvatron and Gaius Baltar and a new villain that knows both weaknesses in humanity and Cylon? What if the Colonials and Cylon get into a big fight above a planet that changes into a very perturbed [[w:Unicron|Unicron!?]] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:10, 22 February 2007 (CST)

:I like the repair thing, Tigh's comment of "we'd need 3 months in dry dock just to fix the dents" got me thinking about repairing ''Galactica'', but I imagined some kind of agreement with the Cylons (the Colonials using Cylon repair facilities in return for some other favor). I don't think someone's gonna die this episode (reason see spoiler box), but if someone does die, it'll be a deckhand, which will be the cause for Tyrols strike.
{{spoiltext|RDM confirmed someone major will die in [[Maelstrom]], and two deaths in two episodes time seems a little over the top to me}}--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 14:19, 22 February 2007 (CST)

::''Nobody'' on this show is safe. You should know this. Anyway, looks like Ol' Zombie Slander struck out this week. Like I said, though, they're more rest-of-season than single-episode. Looking back, I think it'd be too much of a ''deus ex machina'' to find anything more than minimal repair facilities left behind by the Thirteenth. Still, the Thirteenth had to get through that same star cluster, so it's doubtless they needed some fixing up by that point, too. Finding -and defending- repair facilities might make for a good arc for the last few episodes, especially if those facilities are barely functional from floating in space for four thousand years. I think it'd be more dramatic, however, to see the Fleet limping -falling apart, out of tylium, and at wits' end- into our Solar System. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:57, 27 February 2007 (CST)

== Doing Time==
One of these days they need to throw Edward James Olmos in jail. When they do that every major character will have been in jail at some point. [[User:Whalepelt|Whalepelt]] 23:23, 25 February 2007 (CST)

== Is Baltar really from Aerelon? ==

There is a debate of whether Baltar is truly from Aerelon for myself at least. Even though he states it in his book and even does an Aerelon accent in front of Tyrol, that doesn't convince me that he indeed was from that colony. Several reasons why:

:*He wrote a book that's sole purpose seems geared towards sowing dissension and dissatisfaction amongst the "working class" of the fleet. This is truly reminiscent of how Karl Marx and other political writers of the same caliber wrote such materials to rally the working class to turn against the middle and upper class sections of society. What better way to gave a sympatheic ear to Baltar than to at least try to establish some sort of common heritage with his target audience.

:*Considering his intellect and the popular stereotypes that Cally had previously highlighted, it is not inconceivable for Baltar to do a fairly good imitation of an Aerelon's speech. This is similar to how some people may imitate an Italian or Boston accent on television shows. Even the actor who plays Lee Adama had to do an American accent for his role, even though he has a British accent in real life.

:*As it is unlikely that the Fleet would have a database of birth certificates for the entire human race on the twelve colonies, there is no reasonable factual way to confirm or deny where each person in the fleet truly came from. This loophole could allow a person like Baltar, who is trying to ensure his own survival, to create any sort of back story he deems necessary in order to ensure that he lives another day.

:*Roslin, during his strip search, appear to also show skepticism towards Baltar's claim to have come up from the poor colonies and rose to prominence amongst the upper class. This would indicate that either she simply can't imagine Baltar as an Aerelon, or she knows enough of his background that he was lying.

Anyhows, those are some of my thoughts on Baltar's claim. I honestly don't trust a single word that comes out of this man. He has shown again and again that he will twist whatever facts that there are to paint himself in the light of a victim. He has never taken full responsibility for how he allowed a security breach to occur with the defense program nor has he ever shown any true moment of repentance except at the times when he was truly afraid that he was going to die. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 12:40, 26 February 2007 (CST)

: I tend to agree with your thoughts on this, however I should point out that his [[Series bible#Gaius_Baltar|Sky One biography]] notes that he was born on a farm. Granted, much of it seems to be incorrect, but it's food for thought. After all, the best lies are the ones inside a truth... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:38, 26 February 2007 (CST)

::Finally got to listen to the podcast for this episode. You were right that Baltar was born on a farm, but RDM had his planet of origin changed to Aerelon now instead of Saggitaron. He indeed create an accent that would allow him to pass as a Caprican. Changed / removed all counter arguments to that new info now.--[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 12:51, 27 February 2007 (CST)

::: So Baltar wasn't faking it after all, unlike, perhaps, Number Six... ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 15:23, 27 February 2007 (CST)

== A dub over? ==
When President [[Laura_Roslin|Roslin]] and [[Galen_Tyrol|Tyrol]] are talking on board Colonial One about the kids and families working in the refinery ship. Roslin agrees with Tyrol and says:

"That's a really good point. [[Tory_Foster|Tory]] I want you to make a list of every one in the fleet who has a work history appropriate to the refinery: factory workers, mechanics, whatever you think. Give it to the chief. I want you to hold a public lottery, and we will take people from other vessels and we will put them on shifts in the <REFINERY>. How's that chief?"

I can't quite make out what she is actually saying. And it does not look like "[[Daru_Mozu|Daru Mozu]]". [[User:Thebairyhum|Thebairyhum]] 21:21, 26 February 2007 (CST)

:Now, that you say it, it indeed looks like it was dubbed over. From the mouth it appears that Roslin is saying two words. Btw, sign your at the end by using four tildes: <nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 20:27, 26 February 2007 (CST)

:Concur. I immediately noticed the ADR and rewound to watch/hear it again. I can't tell what she was originally saying. That's sometimes the realm of the podcast to reveal, but alas, we are again without podcast. (And lo, there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 20:34, 26 February 2007 (CST)

==Ejection of Raptor==
did the back ECO seat(comp console seat) eject to? If it didnt would a Eco sitting back there be screwed?--[[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]] 20:41, 26 February 2007 (CST)Snorkel378
: No, the ECO seat did not eject, which is why Racetrack told Skulls to get up front before ejecting. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:29, 26 February 2007 (CST)

== The NPOV tag has been removed ==

I removed the NPOV tag and also surprised that a new discussion point for it wasn't even created after it was issued. How are we suppose to talk about these commentary points without someone putting in the discussion topic? Anyhows, the two points I removed from the analysis section were:

:* However, it is worth remembering that, historically, revolutions rarely take place at the worst of times. They usually occur in periods just after testing or trying times. If 'Galactica's' writers have done their jobs well, and if Tyrol's efforts lead to better working conditions and a more equitable sharing of burdens, then we might be in for more civil unrest. This unrest will likely occur or coincide with Baltar's trial. A true revolutionary, like Tom Zarek, who is also an astute observer of political and popular trends, will know this, and might explain why he was so upset at Roslin's decision to try Baltar. It also calls into question his absence during this episode. He would have been perfect to run point on these issues for the administration.

::*Response: First, this point is really a commentary and does not expand much on using the actual material in the episode. Secondly, that bit about Zarek is incorrect. The podcast from [[The Woman King]] explained that he was originally upset that Baltar was going to be tried because he was afraid that Baltar would implicate him in the slaughter of many Saggitarons on New Caprica before the Cylon invasion. There was a deleted scene that had Zarek visit Baltar to determine what Baltar was planning on bringing up during his trial. Eventually the Saggitaron theme was dropped from the trial so everything else, including the original reasons why Zarek was upset had to be dropped as well so that the rest of the storyline would be streamlined and focused more on Baltar's actual recorded deeds (on what the audience has seen). --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 08:38, 27 February 2007 (CST)

:* Baltar's actions and attitudes reflect a great deal of hypocrisy and self loathing. One one hand he is the ultimate aristocrat, living luxuriously with many expensive vices with an affected accent, and on the other hand he appears to hold the upper class in as much contempt as the working class people he grew up with. His words condemn the life and people he knew as he grew up, casting those people in the light of being nothing more than ignorant drunks and barroom brawlers that "worked with their hands", and he did everything he could to make sure that he was never actually identified with his roots.

::*Response: This is more of a commentary that is based on the assumption that Baltar was telling the truth that he really was from Aerelon and grew up as a farm boy. It is also assuming that he wasn't attempting to play on Tyrol's emotion state and not using the overall fleet's pent up resentment that the majority of the fleet leadership are from the higher class colonies, like Caprica. Even Baltar's question to Tyrol about whether he believed that the fleet would ever be led by anyone besides an "Adama" was geared to get under Tyrol's skin and not so much of real concern for the fleet. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 08:38, 27 February 2007 (CST)

:The first point is just too opinionated and speculative and has no place in an article. The second is valid though, but it's not a place to again ask if Baltar told to the truth - which I'm inclined to believe. It's somewhat hypocritical in any case, so the issue isn't that important. No matter his origins, he has risen to a position of wealth and prominence even before the Cylon attack, and after it into a position of power. He's probably just trying to stir up popular sympathy for his trial. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:14, 27 February 2007 (CST)
::Concur on the first point. As for the second point... I'm not sure how much self-loathing there actually is. It looks like a power play and grandstanding. I'm sure Baltar would argue that it isn't hypocrisy since he's admitted his (titled) mistakes, and decided to "embrace" his "common" heritage. However, I'm not sure how much analysis of that is necessary when they pretty much explicitly spell that out in the episode (particularly in the dialogue between Tyrol and Baltar). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:21, 27 February 2007 (CST)

== Why "Marxist-Leninist"? ==

I don't see any clear parallels between Baltar's book and Marxism-Leninism (as is alleged in the Analysis section). What's so far been revealed about the book strikes me as more generically populist rather than specifically Leninist. Baltar, like Lenin, seeks the support of the working class, but so have leaders in practically every social movement of any importance, right across the political spectrum from fascism to anarchism. If I've missed some detail of Baltar's revolutionary teachings that marks him out as a Leninist, then this should be included in the article. Otherwise, I think the Marxism-Leninism reference should be removed.--[[User:Steve|Steve]] 05:27, 1 March 2007 (CST)

There were no comments on this matter, so I went ahead and removed the Marxist-Leninist reference. I also removed the apparent assertion that class and ethnic divisions are not "real issues" in the Fleet. --[[User:Steve|Steve]] 03:54, 2 March 2007 (CST)

Dirty Hands

2007-03-02T09:46:51Z

Steve: /* Analysis */ Removed ML reference as per comment on talk page

{{Episode Data
| title= Dirty Hands
| image= 3x16-DirtyHands-TyrolSelix.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 16
| guests=
| writer= [[Anne Cofell Saunders]] [[Jane Espenson]]
| story=
| director= [[Wayne Rose]]
| production= 316
| rating=
| US airdate= 2007-02-25
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population=41,400
| prev=[[A Day in the Life]]
| next=[[Maelstrom]]
| itunes=http://click.linksynergy.com/fs-bin/stat?id=VWbyALbmqZY&offerid=78941&type=3&subid=0&tmpid=1826&RD_PARM1=http%253A%252F%252Fphobos.apple.com%252FWebObjects%252FMZStore.woa%252Fwa%252FviewTVSeason%253Fi%253D215973805%2526id%253D200852806%2526s%253D143441%2526partnerId%253D30
}}

== Overview ==

: ''Amidst unsafe and harsh conditions in the maintenance and production areas of the Fleet, as well [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]]'s [[My Triumphs, My Mistakes|personal diatribe]] stirring feelings of dissent amongst the working class, Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] must wrestle whether or not to resurrect the worker's union he began on [[New Caprica]].''

== Summary ==
===Teaser===

*A group of deckhands, with Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] at the head, are prepping [[Margaret Edmondson|Racetrack's]] [[Raptor]] for a mission.
*Tyrol reminds [[Anthony Figurski|Figurski]], [[Pollux]] and [[Sanchez]] not to leave as they have to work on additional engine refits. A number of deckhands, one literally missing a hand and using a prosthetic arm, are busy with their work. Complaints about fatigue are deflected by Tyrol.
*Viewers see [[tylium]] fuel, refined from its ore state into a gasoline-like liquefied state, being pumped into the Raptor.
*[[Diana Seelix|Seelix]] is returning bags of cleaned laundry to Figurski, Pollux, and [[Redford]]. She's not too happy as, despite high marks on the written exam for [[Viper (RDM)|Viper pilot]] flight training, Seelix has been denied promotion because she was considered to have mission-essential duties and could not be transferred. Pollux is left surprised, believing that others don't want the "knuckledraggers" to rise in rank.
*Tyrol, who heard about the failed promotion from the [[CAG]], apologizes to Seelix. Figurski teases too much about Seelix's fate and her unglamorous laundry work, which causes Seelix to attack Figurski before Chief Tyrol breaks it up. Seelix goes back to laundry delivery, obviously depressed in spite of Tyrol's attempt to have her look at her work on the [[hangar deck]] as critical to the Fleet's safety.
*Racetrack and [[Skulls]], her [[ECO]], launch from the lift from the hangar deck to the port [[flight pod]]. They fly through the motley of civilian ships and begin plotting their course, passing the [[Space Park]], when a malfunction occurs in the reaction control jets and one of the main engines. The vehicle is out of control.
*Racetrack yells for Skulls to sit in the copilot seat and moments later, both eject from the wayward vehicle. The Raptor tumbles on a collision course with ''[[Colonial One]]'' at the same area of the ship where President [[Laura Roslin]] and [[Tory Foster]] are handling their daily business.

=== Act 1 ===
*Admiral [[William Adama]] is assisting President Roslin with moving her office area to another section of ''Colonial One'' while the damaged bulkhead of the ship is repaired. The presidential flagship suffered only a glancing blow from Racetrack's Raptor, but hit with sufficient force to cause a dozen injuries, including to Tory Foster. No one was killed, fortunately.
*When Roslin notes the cramped confines, Adama offers Roslin any of his beds on ''[[Galactica]]''. A moment of humorous silence hangs as Adama realizes the unintended double-meaning and Roslin smiles.
*The two leaders of the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] discuss the cause of the Raptor's malfunction. So far, the investigation suggests a fuel contamination problem. Roslin finds the matter unsettling since, before, the refinery ship was always reliable and timely.
*The leaders discuss [[Xeno Fenner]], who has complained about numerous labor-related problems despite the overall significance of the overall survival of humanity. Adama is impatient with Fenner's effectiveness over the last two weeks and wants to get the Fleet back on its path to [[Earth]].
*Roslin, who [[Home, Part II|began the serious quest for Earth]], can't resist teasing Adama, a [[Home, Part I|skeptic about the legends of Earth]] despite his claims of [[Miniseries, Night 2|knowing where it was]]. Adama plays along with Roslin, asking "Have I ever doubted it?"
*Fenner meets with President Roslin and Admiral Adama. Fenner complains of exhaustion, very long shift hours and other problems that go unheeded throughout his operation by the senior staff. Adama reminds Fenner that, because of the backlog of fuel processing and distribution between the ships of the Fleet, they have fuel for maybe one or two [[FTL|jumps]]. Both leaders warn that safety is in danger and that fuel resupply is imperative.
*Fenner questions if intentionally causing a slowdown or other problems with the fuel processing would yield some results.
*When Fenner quotes a passage from an underground book written by [[Gaius Baltar]] to reinforce his case ("If you hear the people, you never have to fear the people") Roslin is incensed by the quote and has the [[marine]]s in the room arrest Fenner.
*Roslin explains to Adama that Baltar's lawyer had smuggled out the book, called ''[[My Triumphs, My Mistakes]]'', which has been copied about the Fleet. Roslin and Adama discuss how it is causing class strife throughout the Fleet. A visibly angered Roslin, her voice quieting to almost a whisper in her usual manner when in such a state, says, "I am thinking of having a good old-fashioned book burning."
*In their quarters, the Tyrols are having a meal. [[Cally Tyrol]] admonishes her husband from eating too much, recalling their recovery from [[A Day In The Life|vacuum exposure]] and apparent diet requirements to aid in it.
*The two eventually discuss the recent labor problems. Cally, reciting passages from Baltar's book, notes how work throughout the Fleet is divided by class lines, which also happen to be related to how work was culturally based on the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]]. Prosperous colonists from Caprica, Tauron and Virgon were mostly in administrative or professional jobs such as politicians and pilots, while colonists from places such as Gemenon, Sagittaron, and Aerelon, which were agrarian or otherwise raw-material sources, had primarily blue-collar populations. When Galen comments that [[Anastasia Dualla|Lieutenant Dualla]] was from Sagittaron, Cally answers that she was promoted only because of her [[Lee Adama|husband's Caprica status]].
*Chief Tyrol gets a call from Admiral Adama, who tells him of Fenner's arrest for "pissing off the President." Adama orders him to get to the refinery ship and get the fuel supply running. Cally recalls the old union on [[New Caprica]] and that, while the scenery has changed, the people who desired change in then-President Baltar's leadership were still around.
*Roslin visits Gaius Baltar with marine contingent, intent on confiscating any further passages of his clandestine book. She lies to Baltar, telling him that the book was intercepted before it could be mass-produced, and that she was dying to read the latest entries. Roslin objects to Baltar's portrayal as a "man of the people" in his book.
*She forces a strip search of Baltar before his [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations|virtual Six]] convinces him to give up the passages to save his dignity.
*Tyrol arrives to investigate the refinery ship's operation and meets with [[Cavett]], who remembers Tyrol's work as the union leader. He shows him a large cavernous room with a single comparatively small pile of tylium in its center. When asked about the amount of tylium available, Cavett notes that the Fleet would be lucky to get out of this system.
*Cavett notes that the ship is as loud as an "A-bomb" when in full production, and as equally safe.
*The conditions are squalid at best, as many workers move the granular tylium through its conversion process from ore to precursor and fuel. The working conditions are less of the problem, as workers are tired and have very little time off. Work is going much too slowly, and Cavett reminds Tyrol of the harsh work schedules that have greatly reduced fuel production.
*The group enters a conveyor area, where many workers appear to be cleaning or making minor repairs. The refining process appears to have stopped. Despite Cavett's pleas, Tyrol asks him to start up the process. A laborer named [[Milo]] tells Tyrol that the system won't work. When pressed as to the reason, Milo is silent.
*Tyrol looks around to find that several critical pressure relief seals are missing, making the machinery unusable. The workers have intentionally hidden the seals as a protest for Fenner's arrest and an attempt to get improved working conditions.
*Later, on ''Galactica'', Tyrol reports to Admiral Adama and Roslin on his initial investigations on the refinery ship. A search has not turned up the seals. Since the group did not harm him or contaminate the existing fuel, he believes that the workers are buying time to get their pleas heard.
*He notes that some of the people on the refinery ship have been working almost continuously since the original [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Cylon attack on the Colonies]] with no chance to transfer or take a break.
*Roslin acknowledges the hard work, but notes that work is equally hard on the algae processing, or munitions or waste processing teams. When Tyrol asks to cede to some labor demands to get things working again, Roslin objects, calling it extortion, and asks for the names of the leaders to put them under arrest, after which Tyrol reluctantly notes Cavett. Roslin curtly dismisses Tyrol when he tries to continue his pleas.

===Act 2===
*Tyrol visits Fenner and Cavett. Cavett, who was incarcerated on New Caprica by the Cylons, is experiencing hallucinations and is injuring himself. Tyrol asks for the seals, to Fenner's anger.
*Tyrol yells at both to tell him where, and Fenner relents and tells the location of the seals.
*The seals are replaced. Milo asks to flip the switch. Tyrol asks Milo's age: 12. The production resumes. Tyrol looks around to see many very young faces; many of the refinery workers are children and adolescents.
*On ''Colonial One'', Tyrol explains that the parents are passing down their skills to their children, and that the children are thus automatically stuck in their parent's careers instead of choosing an own path for their future. Roslin understands the problem, and offers to gather a list of colonists with any relevant experience that can be used to supplement the workers on the refinery ship.
*A young man named [[Danny Noon]], pulled from [[Dogsville]], questions Tyrol on the hangar deck on why he is tasked to work on the refinery ship. As Figurski tells Tyrol of the young man's farming experience, Noon denies any actual experience, having worked for one summer for money for college before the Cylon attack on the Colonies. Before Tyrol can consider reassigning the man, Figurski warns that letting the young man go may cause more to deny their experience as well, setting back the conscription process. Tyrol does not interfere.
*As Tyrol walks away, he finds a copy of Baltar's underground manifesto. Turning the page, he notes one page entitled "The Emerging Aristocracy and the Emerging Underclass." He decides to go to Baltar.
*Interviewing Baltar (who now knows that his book has circulated), Tyrol tries to separate fact from fiction. Baltar (now possessing only a mattress on the floor, with no bed frame) explains that he is really born on a dairy farm outside of [[Cuffle's Breath Wash]] on Aerelon. When Tyrol questions further, particularly Baltar's posh accent, Baltar explains (as he begins to speak in his native Aerelon voice) that he began to mimic Caprican speech starting at 10 years old so that people would not believe he was from Aerelon, a "drab, ugly rock condemned to be the food basket for the twelve worlds." Baltar left Aerelon after his 18th birthday.
*When Tyrol indicates that the strife was left on the Colonies and begins to leave the [[brig]], Baltar disagrees, indicating that the social strife has followed the people, and that the aristocracy will continue to hold on to their power.

===Act 3===
*The fresh labor on the refinery ship is helping and tylium ore is again being refined, per Fenner. He notes that some problems in the process was where the contaminants were accumulating and that work is being done to clean up the process.
*A malfunction occurs on the refinery ship conveyor, but Fenner warns that the belt has to be repaired while running, else, shutting it down will seize the whole system. Worse, not fixing the problem soon could cause an explosive chain reaction with the ore stuck in the system.
*Tyrol tries to get the problem part, but can't reach it. Danny Noon manages to reach underneath to restore the belt to operation but suffers a piercing injury as he exits from under the belt.
*Watching this suffering becomes too much for Tyrol. He slowly walks over to the belt systems main power levers and pulls them, shutting down the entire fuel operation. He tells everyone that the plant is offline and that the workers are on strike.
*Several pilots, including [[Kara Thrace]], are trying to get a flight, but Pollux tells them that they are on strike, and that only vital missions are being serviced.
*Chief Tyrol is arrested in placed in ''Galactica's'' brig. Admiral Adama tells him that the Colonial Fleet shoots mutineers like Tyrol and the deckhands.

===Act 4===
*Tyrol tries to explain his side, but Adama warns that no one on this ship can disobey orders. To prove how far he will go, he makes a phone call.
*Adama orders Cally Tyrol to be taken to the starboard hangar deck. When the Chief asks why, Adama tells him he is taking her there to be shot as a mutineer. He then states that he will continue with the executions, starting with the rebellious deck crew, if he has to.
*Tyrol is terrified, but Adama continues to elaborate: Orders, no matter how one feels about them, must be adhered to. If even one person hesitates to fulfill an order or feels that orders are optional, everyone will perish, including Tyrol's [[Nicholas Tyrol|son]]. Adama tells him that this is not his desire, but that he would put ten Callys against the wall to be shot to ensure the survival of the Fleet.
*Tyrol resigns. Adama releases him and lets him speak to Cally, who mistakenly believes that Tyrol has won. Adama releases her. Adama releases the Chief as well, reminding him that he wanted to speak with the President on the labor issues.
*On ''Colonial One'', Tyrol and President Roslin talk over drinks about the cultural vocations that some colonists are locked into by birth, which Roslin understands but cannot see how to change. Tyrol suggests a plan where other colonists, including professional types who inhabit ''Colonial One,'' get their hands dirty with many tasks, allowing some sharing of low-level chores. For high-stress jobs, Tyrol recommends crew rotations. Roslin agrees.
*Tyrol recommends a training program, but Roslin defers it and wants Tyrol's union to give some ground in collective bargaining. When Tyrol is confused about the mention of a union he believed long gone, Roslin explains the necessity of the union and his leadership to ensure that the Fleet doesn't tear itself apart.
*Later, back on the hangar deck, Chief Tyrol is announcing work assignments when Captain Thrace arrives to complain about a missing [[nugget]] who did not report for training. She asks for Diana Seelix, who is both visibly confused and excited.
* After berating Seelix for not checking the duty roster to see where she should have reported, Thrace then tells her that she is "out of uniform". Tyrol, in on the ruse, states that he can fix that part of the problem and presents Seelix with ensign pins, promoting her to the basic officer's rank needed to train as a pilot.
*Thrace continues to play the nasty drill officer and orders the smiling Seelix off to the pilots ready room. Thrace herself cracks a smile as Tyrol asks her to "be nice" to her new recruit.

===Bonus Scene===
*Chief Tyrol has finished sorting out a handful of children who were mistakenly picked in the pool of conscripts to aid on the refinery ship. He returns to his quarters to pick up some paperwork.
*Cally Tyrol notes that most of the conscripts are from poor colonies, and that the work involved actually doesn't involve any genuine skills. She noticed that no one from ''Colonial One'' was in the list of conscripts.
*Galen berates Cally for what he feels is yet another recitation from Gaius Baltar's book. He warns her that, if he pushes too hard with the Fleet's leadership, they may pull him off of the assignment of assigning conscripts, where someone like Colonel [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] may be ordered to manage, with more dire results for everyone.
*Cally tries to encourage her husband to continue fighting for the rights of the workers as he did as the union leader on [[New Caprica]]. As she continues to press for his support, he tells her that the New Caprica union is over and leaves without further discussion.

== Questions ==
* Will Baltar's book help his image among the working class of the [[the Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] in his upcoming trial?
* Is it possible that [[Tom Zarek]] somehow assisted Baltar in the writing and distribution of his book?
* Has the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]]'s [[tylium]] reserve been re-stocked at all since "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]"?
* Have these class differentiations amongst the colonies been problematic before the destruction of the Twelve Colonies?
* Besides occupations that are related to the "working class" and other professions such as news reporters, what other occupations exist within the Fleet besides those positions found on ''Colonial One'' and ''Galactica''?
* Have the Colonials truly lost the Cylons or are the Cylons continuing on different plans?
* Why wasn't [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] mentioned along with [[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] as another member of the "working class" that rose to be part of the Fleet leadership as he was born on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]] and started his career as an enlisted man?
* Besides Baltar's testimony, is there any real solid evidence that Baltar was born on Aerelon? Official statements by Ronald D. Moore confirm the truth of this backstory, but can Baltar actually prove it to his fellow Colonial citizens?
* With the information provided by "[[Unfinished Business]]" and "[[A Day in the Life]]", have the attitude and admiration towards Admiral Adama changed significantly to the point that his crew feel more indifferent or resentful of him?
* Besides the six colonies that were mentioned, how were the other colonies, such as Picon, considered?
* Will Tyrol tell Cally about what really happened between his meeting with Adama? Will Cally be told that Adama originally planned on executing her?
* Besides the damage to the bulkheads on ''Colonial One'', were any other ships damaged by the runaway Raptor? Did it actually explode as Racetrack was afraid that it would do before the ejection?

== Analysis ==
* Not having any real options for defending his actions during the Cylon occupation of New Caprica, Baltar has opted to use class warfare as a distraction from the crimes he is on trial for and to drum up support as a victim of "the aristocracy".
* Adama's explanation and pending orders to execute Cally and the rest of the knuckledraggers to force Tyrol to call off the strike is reminiscent of the style of leadership found with Admiral Cain. However, once Tyrol relented and called off the strike, Adama immediately displayed his familiar style of leadership by informing Tyrol of his meeting with Roslin.
* This is the first time that an emergency cockpit ejection from a Raptor is shown during the series. When the craft is fully manned, only the pilots could eject, leaving the crew in the aft compartment behind. However, the cockpit canopy is probably the only part of the hull that can be detached. Whether the remaining crew would survive is debatable as usually the pilots - including the [[ECO]] - are the only ones who have pressurized suits equipped. If the rest of the crew, such as marines or passengers, were suited up, it might be possible for the aft crew to survive if the side entrance door to the Raptor is also designed to blow out in such an emergency.
* Ever since her murder of Boomer and following detention and eventual release, Cally has displayed an attitude of disrespect towards the Fleet leadership, especially to Adama recently. Her recent demeanor and naive assumption that Adama would not do anything more than arrest the strikers may highlight a growing problem amongst the military workers that are beginning to dissent from the leadership.
* This episode, as well as "[[The Woman King]]" display an ongoing theme since Season 2 that focuses on how human beings are self-destructive by nature without any Cylon intervention. As was stated in "[[A Day In The Life]]", the Fleet hadn't encountered any Cylon forces for approximately 2 months. This state of complacency has allowed the typical in-fighting amongst the colonials to resume, especially with the depreciating state of quality of life amongst the ships in the fleet.

== Notes ==

* A number of main characters are not present at all during this episode: [[Lee Adama]], [[Sharon Agathon]], [[Karl Agathon]], [[Saul Tigh]], [[Felix Gaeta]], and [[Anastasia Dualla]].
* According to [[Bradley Thompson]], this episode was originally a different story titled "Our Enemies, Ourselves". When developing "[[The Woman King]]", it was felt that both episodes dealt with the same themes. As a result, "Dirty Hands" was created instead.
* The [[w:79th Academy Awards|79th Academy Awards]] were shown during the episode. The ratings should be taken ''lightly''.
* The prop department still hasn't produced any Ensign [[Military Ranks (RDM)|rank insignia]] yet. Like in "[[Scar]]", Lieutenant j.g. insignia are used instead.
* While [[Galen Tyrol]] has completely recovered, his wife is still dealing with the injuries she sustained in "[[A Day in the Life]]".
* One of the deckhands has lost an arm, but is using a prosthesis to work.
* [[Dogsville]] is still in use.
* Baltar reveals that he is from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]]. He displays his native accent, traces of which he claimed to have heard in Sharon Valerii's voice in "[[Flesh and Bone]]".
* The Fleet's reserves of refined [[tylium]] have become dangerously low.
* [[Cally]] notes [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]] and [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Virgon|Virgon]] as two of the more affluent colonies.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

*''Adama offers Roslin accommodations aboard ''Galactica
:'''Adama''': If the quarters become cramped, you're always welcome in one of my beds…in a manner of speaking.

* ''[[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] talking to [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] about his [[My_Triumphs%2C_My_Mistakes|book]]:''
: '''Tyrol''': Why do I have such a hard time picturing you milking cows and shoveling manure?
: '''Baltar''': Lack of imagination.
: '''Tyrol''': Or maybe that your little tale is manure.
: (...)
: '''Baltar''': I don't sound like I'm from [[Aerelon]]?
: '''Tyrol''': No.
: '''Baltar''': Well you know I take that as a particular complement. I don't know about you, but I've always found the Aerelon dialect to be particularly hard on the ears.
:''(Baltar begins speaking with an Aerelon accent)''
: '''Baltar''': Something about the consonants that scrape the back of the throat. Course I should know an awful lot about my native tongue, I spent hours on it in trying to overcome it. Do you have any idea how hard it is for a ten year old boy to change the way he speaks? To unlearn everything he ever learned, so that one day, one day there might be the small hope that he might be considered as not comin' from Aerelon.
:''(Baltar speaks with his usual accent)''
: '''Baltar''': Maybe I don't know, [[Caprica]]... Caprica... oh to be Caprican, the seat of politics, culture, art, science, learning. And what was Aerelon, just a drab ugly rock condemned to be the food basket for the twelve worlds, and that's how we were treated, like servants, like laborers, like working-class. You know you would have fitted right in there Chief, lots of men who like to work with their hands, and uh, grab a pint down at the pub and...
:''(Baltar again speaks with his Aerelon accent)''
: '''Baltar''': ...finish off the evenin' with a good old fashioned fight.
:''(Baltar returns to speaking as he normally does)''
: '''Baltar''': Oh yes, I left Aerelon after my eighteenth birthday, I turned my back on my family, my heritage, all of them, of course it doesn't matter though, they're all dead now...

== Official Statements ==
Information from the podcast:

* This episode was originally focused on [[Anastasia Dualla]] and the Saggitaron storyline that had started in "[[The Woman King]]". Story ideas that were considered included a scene where two ships within the Fleet would fire upon each other because of a conflict that dealt with the Saggitaron problem. However, it was realized that there were many hurdles and issues that had to be dealt with regards to the Saggitaron idea, and it was this episode that finally broke the storyline idea.
* The stripping scene within Baltar's cell originally had Roslin completely strip Baltar of all his clothes and having the last pages of his book fall out. RDM wanted the conflicting feelings for Baltar in which he felt a victory that he did not break, but also humiliation of being completed stripped down. The actors, though, persuaded RDM that the scene would work if Baltar did maintain his dignity.
* The refinery ship scene in the shop was originally a sugar processing factory that was redressed to appear as a tylium refinery. RDM goes into detail about how difficult it is to show different vessels within the Fleet simply because it would require these ships to "look right" within the Fleet.
* RDM confirmed that in the [[series bible]], Baltar did in fact come from a rural community. When the story originally focused on [[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]], Baltar was written to be from Sagittaron. However, once the story concept changed, RDM wanted to still keep the scene that had Dualla meet Baltar in his cell, but change Dualla with Tyrol. Because the story no longer needed a connection to the Sagittarons, Baltar's home planet was changed to Aerelon.

== Guest Stars ==
*[[Aaron Douglas]] as Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]
*[[Nicki Clyne]] as Specialist [[Cally Tyrol]]
*[[Rekha Sharma]] as [[Tory Foster]]
*[[Jen Halley]] as [[Seelix]]
*[[Don Thompson]] as [[Anthony Figurski]]
*[[Leah Cairns]] as [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
*[[Colin Lawrence]] as [[Hamish McCall|Hamish "Skulls" McCall]]
*[[Samantha Ferris]] as [[Pollux]]
*[[David Patrick Green]] as [[Xeno Fenner]]
*[[Wesley Salter]] as [[Redford]]
*[[Jerry Wasserman]] as [[Cavett]]

== External Links ==

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:Episodes written by Anne Cofell Saunders]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Jane Espenson]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Wayne Rose]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Dirty Hands/Archive 1

2007-03-01T11:27:36Z

Steve: Baltar = Lenin?

Humanoid Cylon speculation

2007-01-24T10:44:29Z

Steve: /* Gaius Baltar? */ Consistency

{{seealso|Characters eliminated from suspicion}}

The [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon's]] transformation into [[Cylon agent|humanoid form]] introduces serious problems for the remnant of humanity known as [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] to identify Cylon operative from human.

This article details [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad#Derived content|plausible speculation]] on central and supporting characters in ''[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]'' who, based on their behavior, motive, and background, could be a Cylon agent.

==Needed Qualifiers for Speculation==

For a character to be logically considered a possible agent, there are a few established parameters to meet:

* '''The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings.''' For purposes of this article, a pregnancy can be generally established as a disqualifier. With [[Sharon Agathon|one exception]], Cylon agents have extreme difficulty with human sexual reproduction to the point of effective infertility.<ref>During a discussion of the reproductive intentions of Cylons in [[The Farm#Noteworthy Dialogue|The Farm]]: 
'''Starbuck''': So farms, that’s great. What were they gonna do? Knock me up with some Cylon kid? '''Sharon''': They were gonna try to. We haven’t been successful so far. '''Anders''': Supposedly they can’t reproduce. You know biologically. So they have been trying every which way to produce offspring.</ref> If a character has adult, biological children, it automatically excludes them as being a Cylon agent as the procreation of the child and the age of the child both violate the 2nd qualifier. Although humanoid Cylons have, eventually, proven to be capable of reproduction with humans, the birth of the hybrid child [[Hera]] was considered such a seminal event by the Cylons that it seems safe to conclude that no Cylon ever had a child before that point.
* '''The suspect must not have a verifiable family history''' (other than marriage). A parent would have known their child from birth (unless otherwise specified), and Cylons are not copies of preexisting humans. This is an expansion of the "confirmed character history" point below.
* '''The suspect cannot be confirmed to have witnessed or participated in the [[Cylon War]].''' This is another expansion of the "confirmed character history" point; it is assumed the Cylons had no models advanced enough to plausibly pass as humans (i.e. [[Wikipedia:Android|androids]] and [[Wikipedia:Gynoid|gynoids]]), so if someone is confirmed to have lived during or participated in the war 40 years ago, that person is not a Cylon, e.g. William Adama and Saul Tigh. Note that apparent age is ''not'' a disqualifer; the Cylon agent model known as [[Cavil]] appears as old as William Adama and Saul Tigh.
* '''The suspect must not have been exposed to the [[Lymphocytic encephalitis|lymphocytic encephalitis virus]].''' The virus is lethal to Cylons with the exception of any Cylon that has been impregnated by a human, e.g. [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]]. Therefore, any member of the boarding party in [[A Measure of Salvation]] (excluding Athena) cannot be a Cylon. This qualifier is not absolute going forward as [[Cottle]] claimed to be able to create a temporary vaccine. So it is possible that a Cylon could survive exposure to the virus in the future, provided they had access to a sufficient supply of the vaccine.
* '''The suspect does not have a reliable history''' involving direct association (i.e. working or personal relationship) with a confirmed human character for '''more than 2 years prior''' to the destruction of the Colonies. Based on information from the [[Miniseries]], the Cylon agents began their infiltration and integration into Colonial society approximately 2 years before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. If a character has a direct association with a character that cannot be a Cylon agent, that association excludes them since they are older than the stated time that the agents began to integrate themselves into Colonial society. Note that the 2-year period is based on information given by [[Number Six]] to [[Gaius Baltar]]: Their relationship lasted for 2 years prior to the Cylon attack. There is also supporting information that [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer's]] tour of duty in the Colonial Fleet was also approximately 2 years.

According to [[Ron D. Moore]], the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties. '''Cylon agents are NOT copies or clones of any pre-existing humans, living or dead'''<ref>In an October 24th, 2005 [http://www.thefandom.com/Article50.phtml podcast interview] Ron Moore stated, "The idea is not there was one like an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these were...these models of Cylon were developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said, 'Well, you know what, there's really only twelve of you...and these are the twelve.' And then if you look at them, they kind of represent different archetypes of what humanity is."</ref>.

Please note that [[Wikipedia:retcon|retroactive continuity changes]] are possible in the series<ref>Retconning has occurred previously, from as the amount of time remaining in the President's term (between "[[Bastille Day]]" and "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]") or the number of prisoners held aboard the ''[[Astral Queen]]'' (between the [[Miniseries]] and "[[Bastille Day]].").</ref> This article is based on plausible speculation, which is also highly fluid in content and can violate {{tl|NPOV}} policies if taken too far.

==Suspected Cylon infiltrators==

===Moderate probability of being a Cylon===

====Anastasia "Dee" Dualla?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No<ref>While Dualla has mentioned her father in the episode, "[[Final Cut]]," he has not been seen on-screen. The [[Battlestar Wiki:Separate continuity|separate continuity]] character of [[Darrin Dualla]] is not canonical with this qualification.</ref>
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] seems to have a fairly well developed backstory regarding her past; she is a Sagittaron ([[Bastille Day]]), her father disapproved of her joining the military ([[Final Cut]]), but upon closer inspection none of this can be confirmed by a third party: the only source of information about Dualla's past in the series has been Dualla herself. Dualla's position in charge of ''Galactica's'' communications puts her in an ideal position for subversion. In "[[Valley of Darkness]]", Dualla is found in the enlisted head, having suffered a blow to the head from Cylon Centurions that passed through, the only survivor in the compartment. Cylon agents have often demonstrated the ability to physically damage themselves for a cause, including self-destruction<ref>There are numerous instances in the series, including [[Sharon Agathon|Caprica-Valerii's]] attack from a copy of Number Six to give plausibilty for [[Helo]], and a suicide-bombing by a [[Number Five]].</ref>. Dualla could have feigned injury to avoid suspicion. Dualla's relationships with members of both government and military command ([[Billy Keikeya]] and [[Lee Adama]]) increase her involvement with secrets in the Fleet.

====Gaius Baltar?====
{{seealso|Baltar as Cylon speculation}}
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifying character: Unknown (described as a close personal friend of [[Richard Adar|President Adar]])
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Gaius Baltar]]'s odds of being a Cylon are not good, but not impossible either. The miniseries establishes him as a prominent public figure for years. Cylons talking amongst themselves in "[[Downloaded]]" continually referred to Baltar as a human. In "[[Torn]]" [[Caprica-Six]] mentions that she was (and possibly still is) considering to have a child with Baltar, which would appear impossible if he was a Cylon. However, when learning of the Cylon's "[[projection]]" abilities in "[[Torn]]" and how they may be related to his vision of Number Six, Baltar himself begins to question whether or not he is a Cylon.

Recent information from cast members that portray Cylons confirmed a season 3 storyline that indicates that the revealed agents may not know the identity of the five remaining Cylon agents, implying that these Cylons may have been [[boxed]]. This storyline is introduced in the episode, "[[Torn]]."

====Kara "Starbuck" Thrace====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: Yes (alluded to in "[[The Farm]]" by [[Simon]])
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes, with qualifier (the Adama family, Karl Agathon)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] was apparently disproved as being a Cylon: [[Simon]] wanted to use Starbuck's egg cells in Cylon/human hybrid experiments ([[The Farm]]). It would be illogical to take genetic material from another Cylon agent (unless Simon is [[Final five|unaware]] that Thrace is another Cylon agent).

Thrace's association with [[Zak Adama]] occurred over two years prior to the Cylon attack ([[Miniseries]]). Helo notes that he and Thrace have known each other for a "long time" but the actual length of their friendship isn't defined ([[Scattered]]).

[[Image:Valley of Darkness-Starbuck Helo.jpg|right|thumb|Thrace's painting ([[Valley of Darkness]])]]
[[Image:S3-eyeofjupiter.jpg|left|thumb|The symbol in the Temple of Five ([[The Eye of Jupiter]])]]
A strange connection between Thrace, the Cylons, or the ancient Thirteenth Tribe may exist based on the [[Temple of Five]]. A significant similarity exists between a mandala painted by Thrace that's found in her apartment in "[[Valley of Darkness]]" and the mandala in the Temple of Five, found over a year later. When informed of the similarity between her painting and the temple mandala by Helo, Thrace mentions that the symbol was something that she has drawn since childhood almost subconsciously some times.

The events of the second half of season 3, particularly rumors of Thrace's demise or destiny in the episode "[[Maelstrom]]", and the revelation of her drawing the Eye of Jupiter mandala subconsciously return this character's suspicion from "none" to "moderate." Supporting this tenuous level of suspicion is the fact that the [[Final five|five missing Cylon agents]] are not known to the seven revealed agents, leaving characters with strong levels of direct Cylon interaction (Thrace and Gaius Baltar, particularly) with strange associations that cannot be fully defined, particularly her interactions with the [[Leoben Conoy]] model and his prophetic indications of Thrace's destiny ([[Flesh and Bone]]).

Though clearly meant as a joke, [[Katee Sackhoff]] claims in the Season Three gag reel <ref>{{cite_web|url=http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6307683077762423268&q|title=Battlestar Galactica: Season Three Gag Reel|date=|accessdate=|last=|first=|format=Google Video|language=English}}</ref> that Starbuck is a Cylon and that she dies. Given the rumors surrounding the character and the confirmation that a major cast member will be departing after the episode [[Maelstrom]] <ref>{{cite_web|url=http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2007/01/major_cast_member_to_depart.shtml|title=GateWorld - Battlestar Galatica News: Major cast membet to depart|date=|accessdate=|last=|first=|format=|language=English}}</ref>, there may be more truth to Sackhoff's claim than there seems.
<div style="clear: both;"></div>

===Low probability of being a Cylon===

====Tory Foster?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown (Was Precinct Captain but not known for how long)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

[[Tory Foster]] was said to be precinct captain for the Federalist Party in Delphi for five years prior to the Cylon attack ([[The Captain's Hand]]). However at this point is unknown if this has been corroberrated by any disqualifying character.

Tory was a strong voice and hand in the attempt to rig the Presidential election in Roslin's favor. The ruse is uncovered and suppressed by Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] and Lieutenant [[Gaeta]] ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]). While [[Gaius Baltar]] winning the election was a boon to the Cylon fortunes, rigging the election for [[Laura Roslin]] would have hedged Cylon bets since evidence of vote rigging could have provoked rebellion in the fleet even if Roslin won outright.

During the occupation of [[New Caprica]], Foster aides Roslin in some insurgent activities, but we do not see enough of her activities to know for sure if she is soley aiding the human cause. She is tasked, and fails, with ensuring the safe transport of Maya and [[Hera|Hera/Isis]] off the planet. Maya is killed trying to escape New Caprica with the child. Hera survives but is found by the Cylons ([[Occupation]], [[Exodus, Part I|Exodus, Part I]] & [[Exodus, Part II|II]]). Since this fortuitous event was possibly the only benefit that the Cylons permanently gained from their occupation of New Caprica, we should question if Foster truly tried her best, or if she tipped off the Cylons. However, it is unlikely that a targeted Cylon ambush of Maya and her accompanying guards would shoot her while she is carrying Hera.

====Samuel Anders?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown (Was Pyramid Ball player but not known for how long)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

[[Samuel Anders|Anders]] was a well known public figure as a sports star, although the length of his time in [[Pyramid (RDM)|pyramid sport]] is not known. In "[[Downloaded]]", a copy of [[Number Three]] and [[Caprica-Six]] refer to Anders as human, however if he were a Cylon agent they would not be aware of it (see [[Final five]]).

==== Felix Gaeta? ====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

As tactical officer, [[Felix Gaeta]], being technically minded, is initially fond of [[Gaius Baltar|Dr. Baltar's work]]. He admitted to ignoring the [[Cylon transponder|Cylon device]] found below the [[DRADIS]] console in the [[Miniseries]], believing it to be part of the new [[Galactica Museum|museum]]. Gaeta neglects an update to [[emergency jump coordinates]] to the Fleet ([[Scattered]]), and proposes creating a [[Computers|computer]] network to fix the matter, leaving the ship vulnerable (and compromised twice).

Gaeta's recent behavioral changes from the stress of working at evading the Cylons shows by "[[Final Cut]]" as Gaeta is shown in his interview drunk, smoking, and wearing a new tattoo. By the following episode, "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", Gaeta angrily snaps at Colonel Tigh for giving a difficult order, causing surprise throughout [[CIC]] as Gaeta is normally a calm, reserved officer even under the worst of conditions. Contrast this behavior with "Boomer" Valerii, who still appeared quite alert after 5 continuous days of combat status. Note the following dialogue from the first regular series episode, "[[33]]":

::'''[[Lee Adama|Apollo]]''': Hey, how about you, Boomer? [[Cottle|Doc]] tells me you're holding up better than anybody in the squadron.
::'''Boomer''': I'm tired, like everybody else.
::'''Apollo''': You never seem it.
::'''[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]]''': 'Cause she's a Cylon.
::'''Boomer''': You're just gonna make me come over there and kick your ass, aren't you?

While even Cylon agents develop severe behavioral and physiological issues after extended work and abuse ([[Number Six#Gina|Pegasus]]), Cylon agents appear to be more resilient than humans, which may limit the likelihood of Gaeta's possible Cylon connection. On the other hand, if he were a Cylon, Gaeta's human personality may have finally been overtaxed by that time, suggesting that an actual human might have snapped earlier in their exodus in contrast.

Gaeta's likelihood as a Cylon operative may be in doubt over one key element: The Cylons appear to have integrated human agents into the Colonies no earlier than 2 years before the events of the Miniseries. Gaeta has served on ''Galactica'' with Commander Adama for three years ([[Miniseries]]). Saul Tigh confirms that he has worked with Gaeta for 4 years ([[Collaborators]]).

Gaeta chose to stay with Baltar's puppet administrator on New Caprica to feed inside information to the resistance, which Galen Tyrol confirms ("[[Occupation]]," "[[Precipice]]," "[[Collaborators]]"). Since humanoid Cylons are not clones of actual humans, the likelihood of Gaeta as a Cylon agent would depend on the start of Cylon agent introduction. Further, it would be illogical for Gaeta not to reveal himself as a Cylon once the occupation of New Caprica was completed.

====Cally Tyrol?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

[[Cally Tyrol|Cally Henderson]] shoots "Boomer" Valerii in a "Jack Ruby-style" assassination, preventing the Fleet from interrogating her further. While this might benefit the Cylon agenda, Henderson had a perfectly understandable reason for doing it, which she has openly stated: she hates Boomer for her association with Chief Tyrol and for her betrayal in shooting Adama.

Henderson is married to Galen Tyrol and has a son, [[Nicholas Tyrol|Nicholas]] as of season 3. Given the magnitude of problems in creating Cylon or Cylon/human offspring, Cally Tyrol's pregnancy is a substantially powerful disqualifier as an agent. At the very least, it is impossible for them both to be Cylons.

====Galen Tyrol?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] was in an illicit relationship with "Boomer" Valerii, and later has recurring nightmares based on his fear of being a Cylon sleeper agent. Having served under Commander Adama for 5 years, Adama noted that, if Tyrol was a Cylon, he has had plenty of resources and opportunity to destroy the battlestar.

Galen and Cally Tyrol's child, [[Nicholas Tyrol]], all but removes suspicion for this character, given the difficulties in Cylon- or Cylon/human conception. At the very least, it is impossible for them both to be Cylons.

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Humanoid Cylon speculation

2007-01-24T10:43:18Z

Steve: language edits

{{seealso|Characters eliminated from suspicion}}

The [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon's]] transformation into [[Cylon agent|humanoid form]] introduces serious problems for the remnant of humanity known as [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] to identify Cylon operative from human.

This article details [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad#Derived content|plausible speculation]] on central and supporting characters in ''[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]'' who, based on their behavior, motive, and background, could be a Cylon agent.

==Needed Qualifiers for Speculation==

For a character to be logically considered a possible agent, there are a few established parameters to meet:

* '''The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings.''' For purposes of this article, a pregnancy can be generally established as a disqualifier. With [[Sharon Agathon|one exception]], Cylon agents have extreme difficulty with human sexual reproduction to the point of effective infertility.<ref>During a discussion of the reproductive intentions of Cylons in [[The Farm#Noteworthy Dialogue|The Farm]]: 
'''Starbuck''': So farms, that’s great. What were they gonna do? Knock me up with some Cylon kid? '''Sharon''': They were gonna try to. We haven’t been successful so far. '''Anders''': Supposedly they can’t reproduce. You know biologically. So they have been trying every which way to produce offspring.</ref> If a character has adult, biological children, it automatically excludes them as being a Cylon agent as the procreation of the child and the age of the child both violate the 2nd qualifier. Although humanoid Cylons have, eventually, proven to be capable of reproduction with humans, the birth of the hybrid child [[Hera]] was considered such a seminal event by the Cylons that it seems safe to conclude that no Cylon ever had a child before that point.
* '''The suspect must not have a verifiable family history''' (other than marriage). A parent would have known their child from birth (unless otherwise specified), and Cylons are not copies of preexisting humans. This is an expansion of the "confirmed character history" point below.
* '''The suspect cannot be confirmed to have witnessed or participated in the [[Cylon War]].''' This is another expansion of the "confirmed character history" point; it is assumed the Cylons had no models advanced enough to plausibly pass as humans (i.e. [[Wikipedia:Android|androids]] and [[Wikipedia:Gynoid|gynoids]]), so if someone is confirmed to have lived during or participated in the war 40 years ago, that person is not a Cylon, e.g. William Adama and Saul Tigh. Note that apparent age is ''not'' a disqualifer; the Cylon agent model known as [[Cavil]] appears as old as William Adama and Saul Tigh.
* '''The suspect must not have been exposed to the [[Lymphocytic encephalitis|lymphocytic encephalitis virus]].''' The virus is lethal to Cylons with the exception of any Cylon that has been impregnated by a human, e.g. [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]]. Therefore, any member of the boarding party in [[A Measure of Salvation]] (excluding Athena) cannot be a Cylon. This qualifier is not absolute going forward as [[Cottle]] claimed to be able to create a temporary vaccine. So it is possible that a Cylon could survive exposure to the virus in the future, provided they had access to a sufficient supply of the vaccine.
* '''The suspect does not have a reliable history''' involving direct association (i.e. working or personal relationship) with a confirmed human character for '''more than 2 years prior''' to the destruction of the Colonies. Based on information from the [[Miniseries]], the Cylon agents began their infiltration and integration into Colonial society approximately 2 years before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. If a character has a direct association with a character that cannot be a Cylon agent, that association excludes them since they are older than the stated time that the agents began to integrate themselves into Colonial society. Note that the 2-year period is based on information given by [[Number Six]] to [[Gaius Baltar]]: Their relationship lasted for 2 years prior to the Cylon attack. There is also supporting information that [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer's]] tour of duty in the Colonial Fleet was also approximately 2 years.

According to [[Ron D. Moore]], the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties. '''Cylon agents are NOT copies or clones of any pre-existing humans, living or dead'''<ref>In an October 24th, 2005 [http://www.thefandom.com/Article50.phtml podcast interview] Ron Moore stated, "The idea is not there was one like an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these were...these models of Cylon were developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said, 'Well, you know what, there's really only twelve of you...and these are the twelve.' And then if you look at them, they kind of represent different archetypes of what humanity is."</ref>.

Please note that [[Wikipedia:retcon|retroactive continuity changes]] are possible in the series<ref>Retconning has occurred previously, from as the amount of time remaining in the President's term (between "[[Bastille Day]]" and "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]") or the number of prisoners held aboard the ''[[Astral Queen]]'' (between the [[Miniseries]] and "[[Bastille Day]].").</ref> This article is based on plausible speculation, which is also highly fluid in content and can violate {{tl|NPOV}} policies if taken too far.

==Suspected Cylon infiltrators==

===Moderate probability of being a Cylon===

====Anastasia "Dee" Dualla?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No<ref>While Dualla has mentioned her father in the episode, "[[Final Cut]]," he has not been seen on-screen. The [[Battlestar Wiki:Separate continuity|separate continuity]] character of [[Darrin Dualla]] is not canonical with this qualification.</ref>
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] seems to have a fairly well developed backstory regarding her past; she is a Sagittaron ([[Bastille Day]]), her father disapproved of her joining the military ([[Final Cut]]), but upon closer inspection none of this can be confirmed by a third party: the only source of information about Dualla's past in the series has been Dualla herself. Dualla's position in charge of ''Galactica's'' communications puts her in an ideal position for subversion. In "[[Valley of Darkness]]", Dualla is found in the enlisted head, having suffered a blow to the head from Cylon Centurions that passed through, the only survivor in the compartment. Cylon agents have often demonstrated the ability to physically damage themselves for a cause, including self-destruction<ref>There are numerous instances in the series, including [[Sharon Agathon|Caprica-Valerii's]] attack from a copy of Number Six to give plausibilty for [[Helo]], and a suicide-bombing by a [[Number Five]].</ref>. Dualla could have feigned injury to avoid suspicion. Dualla's relationships with members of both government and military command ([[Billy Keikeya]] and [[Lee Adama]]) increase her involvement with secrets in the Fleet.

====Gaius Baltar?====
{{seealso|Baltar as Cylon speculation}}
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifying character: Unknown (described as a close personal friend of [[Richard Adar|President Adar]])
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Gaius Baltar]]'s odds of being a Cylon are low, but not impossible. The miniseries establishes him as a prominent public figure for years. Cylons talking amongst themselves in "[[Downloaded]]" continually referred to Baltar as a human. In "[[Torn]]" [[Caprica-Six]] mentions that she was (and possibly still is) considering to have a child with Baltar, which would appear impossible if he was a Cylon. However, when learning of the Cylon's "[[projection]]" abilities in "[[Torn]]" and how they may be related to his vision of Number Six, Baltar himself begins to question whether or not he is a Cylon.

Recent information from cast members that portray Cylons confirmed a season 3 storyline that indicates that the revealed agents may not know the identity of the five remaining Cylon agents, implying that these Cylons may have been [[boxed]]. This storyline is introduced in the episode, "[[Torn]]."

====Kara "Starbuck" Thrace====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: Yes (alluded to in "[[The Farm]]" by [[Simon]])
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes, with qualifier (the Adama family, Karl Agathon)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] was apparently disproved as being a Cylon: [[Simon]] wanted to use Starbuck's egg cells in Cylon/human hybrid experiments ([[The Farm]]). It would be illogical to take genetic material from another Cylon agent (unless Simon is [[Final five|unaware]] that Thrace is another Cylon agent).

Thrace's association with [[Zak Adama]] occurred over two years prior to the Cylon attack ([[Miniseries]]). Helo notes that he and Thrace have known each other for a "long time" but the actual length of their friendship isn't defined ([[Scattered]]).

[[Image:Valley of Darkness-Starbuck Helo.jpg|right|thumb|Thrace's painting ([[Valley of Darkness]])]]
[[Image:S3-eyeofjupiter.jpg|left|thumb|The symbol in the Temple of Five ([[The Eye of Jupiter]])]]
A strange connection between Thrace, the Cylons, or the ancient Thirteenth Tribe may exist based on the [[Temple of Five]]. A significant similarity exists between a mandala painted by Thrace that's found in her apartment in "[[Valley of Darkness]]" and the mandala in the Temple of Five, found over a year later. When informed of the similarity between her painting and the temple mandala by Helo, Thrace mentions that the symbol was something that she has drawn since childhood almost subconsciously some times.

The events of the second half of season 3, particularly rumors of Thrace's demise or destiny in the episode "[[Maelstrom]]", and the revelation of her drawing the Eye of Jupiter mandala subconsciously return this character's suspicion from "none" to "moderate." Supporting this tenuous level of suspicion is the fact that the [[Final five|five missing Cylon agents]] are not known to the seven revealed agents, leaving characters with strong levels of direct Cylon interaction (Thrace and Gaius Baltar, particularly) with strange associations that cannot be fully defined, particularly her interactions with the [[Leoben Conoy]] model and his prophetic indications of Thrace's destiny ([[Flesh and Bone]]).

Though clearly meant as a joke, [[Katee Sackhoff]] claims in the Season Three gag reel <ref>{{cite_web|url=http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6307683077762423268&q|title=Battlestar Galactica: Season Three Gag Reel|date=|accessdate=|last=|first=|format=Google Video|language=English}}</ref> that Starbuck is a Cylon and that she dies. Given the rumors surrounding the character and the confirmation that a major cast member will be departing after the episode [[Maelstrom]] <ref>{{cite_web|url=http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2007/01/major_cast_member_to_depart.shtml|title=GateWorld - Battlestar Galatica News: Major cast membet to depart|date=|accessdate=|last=|first=|format=|language=English}}</ref>, there may be more truth to Sackhoff's claim than there seems.
<div style="clear: both;"></div>

===Low probability of being a Cylon===

====Tory Foster?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown (Was Precinct Captain but not known for how long)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

[[Tory Foster]] was said to be precinct captain for the Federalist Party in Delphi for five years prior to the Cylon attack ([[The Captain's Hand]]). However at this point is unknown if this has been corroberrated by any disqualifying character.

Tory was a strong voice and hand in the attempt to rig the Presidential election in Roslin's favor. The ruse is uncovered and suppressed by Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] and Lieutenant [[Gaeta]] ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]). While [[Gaius Baltar]] winning the election was a boon to the Cylon fortunes, rigging the election for [[Laura Roslin]] would have hedged Cylon bets since evidence of vote rigging could have provoked rebellion in the fleet even if Roslin won outright.

During the occupation of [[New Caprica]], Foster aides Roslin in some insurgent activities, but we do not see enough of her activities to know for sure if she is soley aiding the human cause. She is tasked, and fails, with ensuring the safe transport of Maya and [[Hera|Hera/Isis]] off the planet. Maya is killed trying to escape New Caprica with the child. Hera survives but is found by the Cylons ([[Occupation]], [[Exodus, Part I|Exodus, Part I]] & [[Exodus, Part II|II]]). Since this fortuitous event was possibly the only benefit that the Cylons permanently gained from their occupation of New Caprica, we should question if Foster truly tried her best, or if she tipped off the Cylons. However, it is unlikely that a targeted Cylon ambush of Maya and her accompanying guards would shoot her while she is carrying Hera.

====Samuel Anders?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown (Was Pyramid Ball player but not known for how long)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

[[Samuel Anders|Anders]] was a well known public figure as a sports star, although the length of his time in [[Pyramid (RDM)|pyramid sport]] is not known. In "[[Downloaded]]", a copy of [[Number Three]] and [[Caprica-Six]] refer to Anders as human, however if he were a Cylon agent they would not be aware of it (see [[Final five]]).

==== Felix Gaeta? ====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

As tactical officer, [[Felix Gaeta]], being technically minded, is initially fond of [[Gaius Baltar|Dr. Baltar's work]]. He admitted to ignoring the [[Cylon transponder|Cylon device]] found below the [[DRADIS]] console in the [[Miniseries]], believing it to be part of the new [[Galactica Museum|museum]]. Gaeta neglects an update to [[emergency jump coordinates]] to the Fleet ([[Scattered]]), and proposes creating a [[Computers|computer]] network to fix the matter, leaving the ship vulnerable (and compromised twice).

Gaeta's recent behavioral changes from the stress of working at evading the Cylons shows by "[[Final Cut]]" as Gaeta is shown in his interview drunk, smoking, and wearing a new tattoo. By the following episode, "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", Gaeta angrily snaps at Colonel Tigh for giving a difficult order, causing surprise throughout [[CIC]] as Gaeta is normally a calm, reserved officer even under the worst of conditions. Contrast this behavior with "Boomer" Valerii, who still appeared quite alert after 5 continuous days of combat status. Note the following dialogue from the first regular series episode, "[[33]]":

::'''[[Lee Adama|Apollo]]''': Hey, how about you, Boomer? [[Cottle|Doc]] tells me you're holding up better than anybody in the squadron.
::'''Boomer''': I'm tired, like everybody else.
::'''Apollo''': You never seem it.
::'''[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]]''': 'Cause she's a Cylon.
::'''Boomer''': You're just gonna make me come over there and kick your ass, aren't you?

While even Cylon agents develop severe behavioral and physiological issues after extended work and abuse ([[Number Six#Gina|Pegasus]]), Cylon agents appear to be more resilient than humans, which may limit the likelihood of Gaeta's possible Cylon connection. On the other hand, if he were a Cylon, Gaeta's human personality may have finally been overtaxed by that time, suggesting that an actual human might have snapped earlier in their exodus in contrast.

Gaeta's likelihood as a Cylon operative may be in doubt over one key element: The Cylons appear to have integrated human agents into the Colonies no earlier than 2 years before the events of the Miniseries. Gaeta has served on ''Galactica'' with Commander Adama for three years ([[Miniseries]]). Saul Tigh confirms that he has worked with Gaeta for 4 years ([[Collaborators]]).

Gaeta chose to stay with Baltar's puppet administrator on New Caprica to feed inside information to the resistance, which Galen Tyrol confirms ("[[Occupation]]," "[[Precipice]]," "[[Collaborators]]"). Since humanoid Cylons are not clones of actual humans, the likelihood of Gaeta as a Cylon agent would depend on the start of Cylon agent introduction. Further, it would be illogical for Gaeta not to reveal himself as a Cylon once the occupation of New Caprica was completed.

====Cally Tyrol?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

[[Cally Tyrol|Cally Henderson]] shoots "Boomer" Valerii in a "Jack Ruby-style" assassination, preventing the Fleet from interrogating her further. While this might benefit the Cylon agenda, Henderson had a perfectly understandable reason for doing it, which she has openly stated: she hates Boomer for her association with Chief Tyrol and for her betrayal in shooting Adama.

Henderson is married to Galen Tyrol and has a son, [[Nicholas Tyrol|Nicholas]] as of season 3. Given the magnitude of problems in creating Cylon or Cylon/human offspring, Cally Tyrol's pregnancy is a substantially powerful disqualifier as an agent. At the very least, it is impossible for them both to be Cylons.

====Galen Tyrol?====
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed to have lived during the Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] was in an illicit relationship with "Boomer" Valerii, and later has recurring nightmares based on his fear of being a Cylon sleeper agent. Having served under Commander Adama for 5 years, Adama noted that, if Tyrol was a Cylon, he has had plenty of resources and opportunity to destroy the battlestar.

Galen and Cally Tyrol's child, [[Nicholas Tyrol]], all but removes suspicion for this character, given the difficulties in Cylon- or Cylon/human conception. At the very least, it is impossible for them both to be Cylons.

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

The Passage

2006-12-10T11:41:05Z

Steve: Questions - what caused the food-processor problems?

{{Episode Data
| title= The Passage
| image=Season 3 - Promo - The Passage - Kat.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 10
| guests= [[Lucy Lawless]] as [[Number Three]]
| writer= [[Jane Espenson]]
| story=
| director= [[Michael Nankin]]
| production= 310
| rating=
| US airdate= 2006-12-08
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population= 41,420
| prev= [[Unfinished Business]]
| next= [[The Eye of Jupiter]]
}}

== Overview ==
:''Starvation threatens the population after the food-processing systems become contaminated, but the Fleet is cut off from a food source by the intense radiation put out by a huge star cluster. Galactica's pilots must guide the civilian vessels on a dangerous journey directly through the radiation.''

== Summary ==
=== On ''[[Galactica]]'' ===
*[[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] flies a [[Raptor]] through a blinding, immensely bright gas cloud. The Raptor's outer skin is charring from the intense heat. Athena is managing to fight off the intense radiation buildup surrounding her, thanks to her [[Cylon agent|Cylon physiology]], but a radiation monitor badge she wears is changing color from white, spotting to an ominous black.
*Elsewhere in the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]], President [[Laura Roslin]] summarizes the contamination of the basic foodstuff material storage used to feed everyone, from soldier to civilian. The situation is dire; 7 to 10 days of rations remain. The Fleet is starving.
*A group of pilots, including [[Lee Adama]], [[Kara Thrace]], [[Hot Dog]] and [[Louanne Katraine]], are combining what little food they have and sharing it, down to the last crumb.
*Admiral [[William Adama]] and his command staff await Athena's return from her reconnaisance mission to what they believe is a planet that has basic algae, which isn't extremely palatable but is protein-rich and will allow them to restock their food stores and survive. Athena is three hours late from return.
*Athena does make it back to ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''. While her radiation badge is black, her Cylon physiology protects her (although she is obviously uncomfortable). She reports success; the planet is teeming with algae.
*But the travel through the star cluster is extremely dangerous. Two [[FTL|jumps]] are required to reach the planet on the other side of the cluster, which cannot be circumnavigated. The navigation computers of any civilian ships inside the cluster would be inoperative due to insufficient shielding and the intense radiation leaves a ship only minutes to gather their bearings for the second jump out before they absorb a fatal dose of radiation. Any ship would also have to endure the intense heat as well.
*''Galactica'' alone cannot be used to ferry the people, and the civilian ships alone would not make the trip as they would get lost within the cluster cloud. There is too much algae for ''Galactica'' to bring the food to the people in time.
*The Adamas consider the use of the Raptors, whose navigation systems are radiation-hardened to protect against nuclear strikes, as pilot ships that will guide a group of civilian ships at a time by visual reckoning, relaying the proper jump coordinates once visual sighting is made to get the ships to the other side. Five jumps are needed, and skeleton crews are used on each civilian ship to limit the Fleet's possible losses, with the civilians temporarily transferred to ''Galactica'', which will survive the radiation effects thanks to the [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar's]] dense hull plating ([[Miniseries]]).
*A group of civilians are bunked on ''Galactica'' from the civilian ships. One of them recognizes Kat, but calls out for her by another name: "Sasha." Kat reacts angrily to the man, [[Enzo]], and barely acknowledges his call before warning him to back off.
*The pilots are briefed on the plan, and each given radiation badges. When Major Adama encourages the use of [[stims]], Kat objects, warning that stims work by boosting the body's metabolism. In their starvation state, the stims would make them ill. Adama leaves the use of the drug to the pilot's discretion.
*Colonel [[Saul Tigh]] returns to the [[CIC]] and is greeted by a round of applause from the crew. He promptly reminds them that they have "jobs to do". He has presumably resumed his post as [[XO]] of ''Galactica''.
*The first outbound flight into the cluster begins. The ''[[Adriatic]]'' is lost when its Raptor guide, flown by [[Hot Dog]], cannot locate her.
*Successive trips continue, but another ship, the ''[[Carina]]'', guided by Kat, is lost as well, which greatly angers and saddens her. She stays in the cloud a few minutes too long during her extended search, and her radiation badge becomes dark.
*In the [[hangar deck]], Thrace notices Enzo interacting with Kat and gets suspicious. She later questions Enzo and later, Kat.
*Kat begs Thrace not to tell Admiral Adama about her past life as a drug runner and the fact that she acquired her name, "Louanne Katraine," from a child that died two days after the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Cylon attack]], using it to clear ''Galactica's'' pilot screening when she was a [[nugget]]. Thrace accepts her offer, warning her to embrace who she really is.
*Feeling backed into a corner, Kat is physically stressed. Her hair is falling out, a sign of radiation poisoning. Fearful of what will happen to her if Admiral Adama finds out, she chooses to continue her Raptor flights, swapping her radiation badge with [[Helo]]'s. She allows herself a sexual romp with Enzo before preparing for the last outbound flight.
*The last outbound trip is more destructive. Even ''Galactica'' cannot withstand the heat and begins to suffer heat-related decompression failures throughout its hull. Adama orders his son to wrap out visual sighting and perform the escape jump.
*Kat cannot find her last ship. Realizing she had already absorbed too much radiation, she elects to remain in the cloud to continue searching for her lost ship.
*''Galactica'' waits for several frightening minutes until both Kat's Raptor and the last civilian ship rejoin them.
*Kat is greeted by the command staff and many crewmembers to celebrate her accomplishment. The young pilot pumps her arms in the air and tries to remove her helmet before she collapses from radiation poisoning.
*In [[sickbay]], Kara Thrace talks to Kat, whose exposure to the cloud's radiation was too extreme. Thrace recants a part of her conversation with Kat and her origins, and tries unsuccessfully to leave Kat's bedside with a smile before leaving the dying pilot with a bottle of sleeping pills as a gesture of self-euthanization. Kat thanks her.
*Admiral Adama stands by Kat's bedside immediately after Thrace's departure. Kat attempts to confess her past, but Adama tells her that her past will not change the heroic thing she did for the Fleet. He gives her the status of [[CAG]] once more, a position she held from colonization of [[New Caprica]] to Major Adama's return to ''Galactica'', despite the fact that Kat will not survive to fly again.
*Adama stays at Kat's bedside, talking with her and how he would have loved to have had a third child, commenting that he, like his ex-wife, [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]], would have liked a daughter.
*Some time later, the pilots assemble in their [[Pilot ready rooms|ready room]] as Admiral Adama changes the pilot organization chart, placing Kat as the CAG.
*Kara Thrace enters ''Galactica'''s memorial hallway and tacks a photo of Kat on the board. She cries quietly as Lee Adama looks on from a distance.

=== On a [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]] ===
*Baltar notices that Number Three keeps going off somewhere and wonders what she is doing. Caprica-Six tells him that the other Cylons are also concerned about Three's activities.
*Baltar confronts Three about her unexplained absences and surmises that she has been dying and resurrecting over and over again.
*Baltar and Three discuss the final five Cylon agents, who are apparently the figures Three has been seeing between life and death. Baltar wonders aloud if he could be one of them, making him a hero to the Cylons instead of a traitor to the Colonials. Three tries to hold onto the memory of what they look like, but it always fades. Her drawings of them aren't very distinct.
*Baltar and Three visit the Hybrid's chamber. Against Three's advice, Baltar reaches out to touch the Hybrid and she grabs his hand. She says a number of cryptic things which Baltar pieces together as clues about a planet where the Eye of Jupiter can be found, as well as something related to the final five. Baltar states that he is convinced that everything the hybrid says has meaning.

== Questions ==
*Was the Fleet-wide failure of food-processing systems a result of sabotage? If so, were Cylons responsible, or someone else?
*Was assisted suicide an accepted practice in the Colonies, even if not by a practicing physician?
*Are there going to be radiation consequences for the pilots exposed to the conditions of the star cluster, especially those pilots who did in fact have a black indicator?
*How many pilots and crew were lost on the two civilian ships Adriatic and Carina? Will their loss cause problems for the civilians that used to live on them?

== Analysis ==
*The ranking shuffle resumes in this episode: Tigh returns to the CIC as XO, sending Helo back to the flight lines as a senior flight officer (his rank of Captain seems unaffected). At the end of the episode, Kat is posthumously restored to the CAG slot, with Apollo shunted into her squadron leader position (presumably, he will continue as ''de facto'' CAG).
**Kat's promotion to CAG may have occurred before she died so that upon her death, her posting as CAG would expire and Apollo would regain his position. It makes little sense to be posthumously assigned to a billet. Either way, since her posting is honorary in nature, it is likely temporary.
*Baltar calls the Number Three "D'Anna", to which she responds. This indicates a high likelyhood of her being the same copy that was on Galactica and making her one of a few Cylons that has a name instead of just being a model.
**Or, it may simply indicate acceptance of Baltar's custom of referring to and addressing some models by their "human" names—in this same scene, Baltar refers to "the relevant Simon" and in prior episodes refers to "one of the Dorals"' views on toilet paper. This custom is shared with the other humans, such as Ellen Tigh who mentions "one of the Brother Cavils", and Adama, who refers to both the Ragnar Anchorage copy and the stowaway copy in "[[Flesh and Bone]]" as "Leoben Conoy".
*Number Three does not know what the final five Cylon agent models look like, at least not consciously.
*No anti-radiation injections were used by the pilots. This either means that the Fleet's supplies are used up, or that even the medication doesn't help against such intense levels of stellar radiation.
*The first sketch of the final five Cylons that Number Three shows Baltar depicts what looks to be two men and three women. If this proves accurate then of the twelve Cylon models there are six males and six females.

== Notes ==
*This is one of the few times an air group org chart is visible. The CAG (now Kat) is in the top slot; directly below her are (presumably) the squadron leaders (Apollo, Starbuck, Two Times, and a fourth whose name is never visible to the camera). Pilots and ECOs may be listed below their squadron leaders in descending order of seniority (both Helo and Hot Dog, for example, are listed directly beneath their squadron leader, Starbuck, and the two of them are definitely among the senior flight officers for ''Galactica'').
*A [[Straits of Madagon|perilous journey]] by the [[The Fleet (TOS)|"rag-tag" Fleet]] in the [[Original Series]], where pilots are also critical to the Fleet's safety, appears in its series premiere, "[[Saga of a Star World]]."
*"The Passage" was written by ''Galactica'' newcomer [[Jane Espenson]]. The episode arose when the show brought in Dr. [[Kevin Grazier]], a scientist from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, who talked about how one would navigate through space; how one would figure out how to get from one point in the to universe to, for example, Earth. Grazier's talk prompted the story at the heart of Espenson's episode.
*On the memorial wall Kat's picture is placed below the one of Riley's girlfriend she herself put there in "[[Scar]]".
*This episode marks the destruction of two civilian ships, the [[Adriatic]] and [[Carina]]. This will likely result in more crowded conditions on the other ships in [[The Fleet]].
*This is the second episode in which dialog has been censored in the [[w:Sci Fi Channel (United States)|Sci Fi Channel]] broadcast. Starbuck sarcastically proclaims she gave Dr. Cottle "head" in response to Kat saying she gave him her protein bar.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

*''Adama and Tigh discuss the food shortage''
::'''Adama:''' I hear they're still eating paper. Is that true?
::'''Tigh:''' No. Paper shortage.

*''Starbuck gives a last minute pep talk to the pilots''
::'''Starbuck:''' Remember, we're all flying solo on this mission. So that means there'll be nobody there to bitch slap you if you start to get tried or start seeing little toasters on your wing.

== Official Statements ==
'''In [[Ron Moore]]'s blog on [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/ July 27th, 2006]:'''

:"We were pretty excited to have Jane too. I actually took Jane's first pitch way back in my early days at Star Trek and I had the pleasure of buying what turned out to be her first sale. I hadn't seen her since, but I'd followed her career from afar and was very proud to see her do so well. Turns out that Jane was a huge fan of Galactica and really wanted to do a script for us, so we jumped on the chance. I think we're all hoping that we could get her on staff at some point in the future, but we'll have to wait and see how everything shakes out for Season Four -- and whether she's even available, she's very much in demand these days. Her episode this year is "The Passage" (originally Ep 9) and deals with a harrowing voyage of the rag-tag fleet and focuses on Kat."

== Guest Stars ==
*[[Luciana Carro]] as Captain [[Louanne Katraine|Louanne "Kat" Katraine]]

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:A to Z|Passage, The]]
[[Category:Episode Guide|Passage, The]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)|Passage, The]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Jane Espenson]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Nankin]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Scar/Archive 1

2006-12-07T12:13:31Z

Steve: Protoplentary disk or asteroid belt

I'd like to point out that the Template box at the bottom of each episode page is wrong: "Scar" comes before "Sacrifice", not after it. This needs to be fixed but I don't know how to do this. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:25, 6 January 2006 (EST)

== Plausible Parallel? ==
Is it possible that this episode is a parallel to the [[The Lost Warrior (TOS)|episode in TOS]] in which there is a mano-e-mano showdown between a Human and a Cylon? I'm curious as to the possibility that RDM is taking each of TOS's episodes and "outdoing" them, both in believeability, realism, and intensity.--Hawke

:Almost certainly not. There is no TOS Viper vs. Ace Raider thing. It's actually a staple of many scifi tv shows for several years; the "Red Baron" episode. The good guys are at war with another race, and the hero must go up against the enemy's ace pilot. Notably, "[[Wikipedia: Space:_Above_and_Beyond|Space: Above and Beyond]]" did this when McQueen took out the ace Chig pilot, Chiggy von Rictoffen (sarcastic nickname they came up with for him). Long story short, no this is not at all from TOS. This is a classic military story, one of those things that doesn't even need to be scifi. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:15, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:: Abandon all hope, Ricimer. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:07, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::'''The Gods don't want to [[You Can't Go Home Again|hear]] from Starbuck now. Because she's about to go out in that Viper and remove one of Their creations from Their universe. And when she gets back, she's going to drink a bottle of [[ambrosia]] as if it were Scar's frakking bio-mechanical blood, and celebrate his death! ''' -- [[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:14, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::Actually, it's funny that all the episodes that have been outdone were named after they were finished being written and the writers had no prior knowledge of the episodes they were homages to. I got this from the Battlestar Galactica Official Companion. BTW, I saw that Space ABove and Beyond ep and that;s what i thought of when I first heard of the Scar Raider. --Ltcrashdown 22:16, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::LOL! Just finished watching that episode, and it's one of the best lines ever from that series. Ricimer paraphrased it well. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 19:41, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::::Even when McQueen quotes the Iliad at Chiggy before he finishes him off? "''Looking darkly upon Hector, swift footed Achilles answered, 'I cannot forgive you. As there are no trustworthy oaths between men and lions, there can be no love between you and me. Before then to glut with his blood, Ares, the god who fights under the shield's guard. Now the time comes for you to be a spearman and a bold warrior. You will pay in a lump for all the sorrows of my companions you have killed in your spear's fury.'' None of that "mercy to our enemies" stuff, "Cylons can be people too" things, no; straightfoward revenge. :) --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:07, 4 February 2006 (EST)

==Did they do it?==

Ricimer, since I know you tape the episodes, I'll let you watch it again before removing that question. I think you'll agree with me that it's very clearly implied that Apollo stops things before they get that far. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:10, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:I actually watched this with several friends, and we got into a raging debate over whether this happened or not. About a third said no, a third said yes (including me), and a third said they weren't sure at all. It's sort of like how after "Pegasus", a lot of people were asking if Boomer got raped or not, because the editing was (intentionally) chaotic and confusing. However, we all know from the podcast of that that there were two versions and that was officially the "not raped" version.
:The podcast for this episode is ''vague''; he mentions only once the idea that "they'd get so drunk that they'd be in a state where they'd try to have sex with each other"--->OKAY, it wasn't quite that, but the point is he uses the word "try" in such a context (I listened to the podcast with friends) that after repeat listening...It didn't really give evidence one way or the other, plus these weren't the guys that directed it, etc. When *I* saw it, I got the ''impression'' that, through careful editing......frak. I can't put this more delicately forgive me. Frak. Well, to cut through it using Ad-libs; I thought that ''after Starbuck gets her panties pulled down, editing gets chaotic; Starbuck spreads her'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''and Apollo proceeds to'' _Verb_ ''her'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''with his own (conspicuous)'' _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''however Starbuck is proceeding too rough and really fast and Apollo keeps telling her to "slow down", which in context could mean *any number of things*. Starbuck then removes herself from the "presence" of his'' _Adverb_ _Adjective_ _Noun_ ''just as (off camera) he yanks his towel (or whatever) up, so when we actually see him in his first wideshot, he ''appears'' to have not removed his towel, when in reality he did but put it back off camera. ''--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:30, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::I really didn't find it at all ambiguous, and even if they did accomplish penetration extremely briefly, it's a crass thing to speculate about. The emotional consequences for Kara and Lee are the same regardless. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:23, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:::I am not being crass. I literally turned to the person next to me and said "Hey, wait a minute, did they just do it?" and no one was sure. It's not like I expect us to get any conclusive answeres based on analysis; I'm just saying "we're not sure"--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::::When I was watching it and Apollo had his hand on her ass, I turned to my friend and said, "It's about time" but I spoke too soon...--[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::: Keep in mind that the editing is chaotic enough that they start fooling around in the pilots lounge...and wind up going at it in one of the bunk rooms. I seriously doubt they got that far. My impression was that Apollo was working on foreplay...and Starbuck was rushing things...*shrug* in the end...who cares?-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

== Launch Gaffe ==

Was it just me, or when Starbuck and Kat launched from the ''Galactica'' in Viper VIIs, didn't the tube sequence show a Viper '''II'''?--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 02:21, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:Noticed this as well. Apparently the show has no stock footage of a Mk. VII launch sequence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:22, 4 February 2006 (EST)
::Unless they referred to Kat or Starbuck talking over wireless from within the launch tube, this could be explained as being the "other" Vipers flying on patrol for other parts of the asteroid belt.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:32, 4 February 2006 (EST)
:::Then it's a case of bad editing, as it implies (at least from how I saw it) that Kat's flying a II, as we saw Starbuck getting into a VII.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 02:35, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:::: I think what Ricimer means is that we can intnetionally misconstrue that as seeing someone ''else'' launching, even though, in actuality, it was an editing goof.--[[User:Day|Day]] 20:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::::Yes, we could, but it would be quite disingenuous to do so. I think we should call it the way it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:24, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::::: Well, depends on whether you want to start talking about how the Vipers changed appearances or whatever by assuming that the mistake makes canon. Anyway... I was just trying to clarify. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)

==You are all driving me mad==
Please, for the love of god, use the "edit" link on the section you are working on. This allows other editors to work on other sections without incurring edit collisions. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:37, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:This place is getting really busy lately. Collisions are becoming more frequent, even on talk pages. Not sure if there is long-term help for this (or any wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 5 February 2006 (EST)

==Props Given on... Old Props!==
Hey, did anyone else spot that [[Landram]] in the openning shot?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:31, 4 February 2006 (EST)
:I noticed it but didn't know what it was (not a TOS fan). Nice catch! --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 22:41, 4 February 2006 (EST)
::So that's what they were called! I remember seeing them, made me smile when I watched the episode a 2nd time. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:28, 4 February 2006 (EST)
:::Maybe somebody could get a shot of the landram for use on the References page? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:04, 10 February 2006 (EST)

== Where did the music come from? ==

I swear that I have heard the background music before... It starts right at the end of "So say we all", and bleeds over through the workout scene. Where is it from, it is making me crazy?!?
: The Deer Hunter. Also, please sign your comments. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 15:05, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: You may sign your comments by using the a string of four tildes: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:04, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: Thank you so much for the origin of the music. It makes even more sense now... Yikes what tie ins this show sneaks in. ~~ LeslieW

== Picture ==

That's a cool pic and all, but it's already on the [[Scar (Raider)]] page, have the entire episode on my drive. I was trying to think of a scene that nicely summarized the whole episode, but I couldn't pick one. Any ideas on what I should take a cap of? --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 16:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:The first screen after Kat shoots him, immediately after his wing gets sheered off and there's a cloud of blood everywhere...but not TOO long after that, because as he crashes he gets so banged up that at the end you can't tell it's a Raider anymore; the FIRST shot, just as the wing comes off. Also, possibly one of Scar coming out of the sun just as Starbuck puts her finger up, or one of them fighting him with contrails coming off of their Vipers because of the dust. Upload a few and we'll pick. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:29, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I thought about the sun one, but it makes a poor cap. Here are the other two, plus one I thought was good as well:
::Any other ideas, lemme know. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 22:47, 5 February 2006 (EST)
:::I like the "Scar-Firing" picture, the right most one. It's easy to see without actually having to click on it. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 22:56, 5 February 2006 (EST)
::::That's my favorite as well. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:05, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::I hate to be picky, but: the one with contrails has the camera so far away that the Vipers look too small, "Scar Firing" is good, but for a character named "Scar" the pic is of his least "scarred" side of his head, and although I like the Scar-Death one, I think that out of context it might be confusing. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:06, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::::Why don't we use the "Scar firing" pic for this article, and leave the existing one alone on Scar (Raider)? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:10, 5 February 2006 (EST)

== In a Room Somewhere... ==

Don't you have the feeling that, in a room somewhere, Richard (Hatch) and Dirk (Benedict) are looking at each other after watching the "moment of drunken resolve" scene between their one-time characters, and... there is a ''very'' awkward silence. What do you suppose is going through their minds? :) -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 00:03, 6 February 2006 (EST)
:Nothing that they probably haven't read before in "slash" fan fiction about their characters before. Besides, Kirk/Spock stuff came (no pun intended) years before. It ''is'' a funny thing to imagine, though. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:14, 6 February 2006 (EST)
::For several years now, whenever I am at a convention where both Richard Hatch and Dirk Bennidict are guests...they seem to do their best to avoid even looking in each others direction.-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]
:::They have their own issues between each other that originated from the original series... -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:06, 6 February 2006 (EST)

== Kats Costume Change? ==

towards the end of the second act, we get the confrontation between Kat and Starbuck, where Kat punches Starbuck, just before Apollo comes in and orders them "Skids Up in 49 minutes."
At this point Kat is wearing her flight suit (well...half wearing it.)... next time we see her she is wearing her duty uniform (blues) walking through the memorial hallway, pining up the picture of "Beano"'s(?) girlfriend...then back in her flight suit about to jump in her viper.
Are we supposed to infer that this was her recollection/flashback while she was about to take off for her mission? or that with only 49 minutes to prepare for her C.A.P. she took the time to go change into her Blues...wander down to Memorial Hall...then go back..and resuit up for her C.A.P.?
-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

Well yeah, RDM mentioned that in the podcast; just don't read into everything so much. Yeah, a lot of camerawork/director stuff could be a flashback for the purposes of telling a story; I mean lots of shows intercut this kind of stuff. It's not big revelation. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:02, 6 February 2006 (EST)

== Scar's Kill Count ==

Mentioned in this episode, I believe Scar killed 5 viper pilots: Reilly, Beano, BB, Duck, and JoJo. I think Duck was the kid that came to Starbuck for advice since she was telling him to follow BB's lead and never turn but the conversation was a little confusing to me, and it sounded like both were splashed. So 5 Vipers were downed by Scar in this episode and probably a couple others in Resurrection Ship Pt II and mayber earlier episodes. I am certain I heard the name Duck but was confused a little by Starbuck's ommission of his name on the list at the end... -- [[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]]

*Absolutely not. Duck was alive and well. He can be clearly seen in the finale toasting scene at the end. The audio you hear was of Duck shouting at BB to get away from Scar, but that's because BB got separated from Duck. Duck was fine. He was omitted from the list of the dead, because he is not dead.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:58, 6 February 2006 (EST)

::"I'm not dead yet..." --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:29, 10 February 2006 (EST)

== Disambiguation ==
Does anybody object to [[Scar]] pointing to a disambiguation between the episode and the Raider itself, rather than going straight to the episode? That's what we did with Pegasus. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 11:44, 3 March 2006 (CST)
:I prefer the Scar pattern to the Pegasus pattern. The disambig page doesn't contain anything meaningful, and if you intended to go to the other article you're still only one click away from it. Scar (Raider) and Scar (the episode) are both destinations, where a disambig page is just a road sign. In fact, I'd even support doing the same with Pegasus if not for the fact that there are three different possible Pegasus locations. Actually, thanks for the reminder, as I try to keep up with the [[Special:Disambiguations]], and Pegasus is a common offender there. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:12, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:If we only have two things it's easier to have a link at the top of the page like we do, saying "for "Scar the Raider" see this page...",etc. Pegasus has a disambiguation page because there are like 5-6 things under that name. Most times, we don't need disambiguation pages (we do use them for like "Adama" or pilot callsigns re-used from the original series like Apollo and Starbuck. That's it. No need for a disambiguation page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:53, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== "Fullmetal Alchemist" name references? ==

My addition to the notes section:

''"Majahal" and "Scar" are also the names of villains in the anime series Fullmetal Alchemist.''

was undone with the following comment:

''"The Merovingian (→Notes - I'm sorry but I've check wikipedia and googled, but there is no character named Majahal in FMA)"''

Here are a couple refs:
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episodes_of_Fullmetal_Alchemist#Episode_4:_A_Forger.E2.80.99s_Love from Wikipedia's "Episodes of Fullmetal Alchemist"]:
While on their way to Central to try to take the State Alchemy Examination, Ed and Al take a detour to meet an alchemist named Majahal. Majahal’s name appeared frequently in their father’s correspondence in connection with human transmutation.

* [http://www.fullmetalalchemist.com/ official site] (sorry, it's Flash, so I can't deep link... note also the different spelling):
Majhal is a very well respected Alchemist working to better the lives of the people living in his village. Ed and Al learn of him by seeing his name in letters exchanged between the lone Alchemist and their father regarding human transmutation.

If the only similarly-named character was "Scar", this would be too trivial to note, but Majahal/Majhal -> Majahaul is a more plausible candidate for a reference.
--Invalidname

*A) It is not spelled the same B) it is so obscure that it does not warrant mention here. If these were the two primary villians on a show, there would at least be question, but this is just pushing it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:18, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== A worthy quote? ==

Kat's retort to Starbuck's "stim junkie" insult in the pilot's lounge: "One Tigh on the ship's enough." A brutal and efficient comment--killing two officers with one stone. Should it go in the Noteworthy Dialogue section?--[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 10:06 pm, 6 March 2006 (EST)
:Actually, the parallel is even deeper - Kat's slugging Thrace in the face is extremely reminiscent of Thrace doing the same thing to Tigh in the miniseries. I've long felt that Kara was basically going to grow up to be Tigh eventually. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:29, 6 March 2006 (CST)
::Thanks, Peter Farago. Added Kat's "Tigh" comment to the page. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 20:34, 7 March 2006 (EST)

== Moved from Questions ==

Per [[BW:FORUM]], these answers needed to be removed from the questions area. Here's what I removed. These points can probably be re-integrated into the analysis section, though I should reiterate that the analysis sections must not look like a thrice damned forum. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 02:34, 6 December 2006 (CST)

**When ''BattlestarWiki'' [[Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques/Archive01#Scar|asked]] the writer of this episode, [[Bradley Thompson]], this question he said: "Sharon is speculating. She doesn't know, but it could have happened that way." So it remains an unconfirmed possibility.
**It is likely that the ''Pegasus'' production facilities will create Mark VIIs, as the ''Pegasus'' is a more modern battlestar than ''Galactica'' (which does not have these facilities). Since the Mark IIs are outdated models that were only on ''Galactica'' for museum purposes, the blueprints and equipment molds in the production facilities are most likely not set to produce equipment for the older Vipers.
**They may also decide to produce more of the stealth fighters, as they have now seen their combat and surprise capabilities. However, since these aren't robust fighters and sustain damage easily, the odds favor making more protection over stealth.
**The three basic Cylon models represent something of a spectrum of advancement: from their original, purely mechanical form (the Centurions), to the almost-entirely "organic" forms (the humanoid Cylons). The Raiders are described (podcast, "[[Six Degrees of Separation]]") as supposed to be "in the gap" between [[Number Six]] and a Centurion. Centurions cannot resurrect, and they also contain none of the more advanced bio-mechanical technology the Cylons have developed (as demonstrated by destroyed Centurions, etc). Raiders, on the other hand, ''do'' contain "bio-mechanical" technology, albeit not as advanced as that used in humanoid Cylons. Perhaps the resurrection technology is based on that bio-mechanical "wetware".
***Also, the Cylons may believe that fighter-piloting takes more skill than infantry combat.
**Although humanoid Cylons are truly sentient, Raiders are not. Raiders do have a level of self-awareness, as an animal. Basestars make use of some bio-mechanical materials, but little else is known on how they use their bio-mechanics (This may be answered in a Season 3 episode).
**Based on the population counts or Fleet status, it's not likely that the episode events are running concurrently. In "Black Market," the Fleet is united (else, Apollo could not fly to ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' or the ''[[Prometheus]]''). In "Scar," ''Galactica'' and the ''Majahual'' are in one system while ''Pegasus'' guards the rest of the Fleet in another location.
**As CAG of two battlestars, Apollo need not fly in every mission now with the relatively high levels of existing pilots and new recruits from ''Pegasus'' as well as ''Galactica's'' own pilots. Since Starbuck appears to have returned to her 2nd pilot in command status (acting as CAG in Apollo's absence), she manages some CAG responsibilities on ''Galactica'', such as pilot briefings. Kat appears to brief pilots as well, suggesting she is higher in the pilot command chain than before.
**There may have been bio-mechanical brains in storage we didn't see; also, the ship acts as a transmitter and could simply transmit their consciousnesses to accompanying basestars.

== Asteroid spacing ==
The note about the unrealistic distances between asteroid is quite right (virtually the same mistake has often been made in the series' representations of nebular density), but we never see the asteroid belt in its initial state (i.e. before mining operations commenced). Maybe all those rocks flying around close to each other are debris from the blasting of one or two huge asteroids to get at the desired ore deposits.--[[User:Steve|Steve]] 06:07, 6 December 2006 (CST)

=== Citation ===

Per [[BW:CITE|our Citation Jihad]], we need a better source than Wikipedia. Sadly, Wikipedia is not a primary or secondary source -- an article from a scientific journal would work, Wikpedia does not. (Another thing against Wikipedia, particularly on the article that Boogaloo cited, is that it was listed as lacking sources itself!) Until we have a better cite, I've moved the bullet point here. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:43, 6 December 2006 (CST)

*A classic error made in most sci-fi franchises is made in this episode. It depicts asteroids in an asteroid field being in extremely close proximity with one another. In actuality, however, asteroids are normally spaced very far apart from one another. For more information, check out the [[Wikipedia:Asteroid Belt#The_asteroid_belt_in_fiction_and_film|'In film and fiction' section of the Wikipedia article on asteroid belts]].

*Oh, come on. It's basic science. Just look in any good scientific work and you'll find conformation that asteroids are spaced apart. And I doubt that all those rocks flying about were a result of the mining operations, or they would have got rid of them to stop them hindering the mining. Besides, if all those rocks were the result of one asteroid being blasted apart, it would have to be one '''MASSIVE''' asteroid. [[User:Boogaloo|Boogaloo]] 09:48, 6 December 2006 (CST)

** Regardless, it still needs to be sourced. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:25, 6 December 2006 (CST)

*Here's a source I found:

[[http://www.solarviews.com/eng/asteroid.htm]]

And here's the appropiate sentence from said source:

''Spacecraft that have flown through the asteroid belt have found that the belt is really quite empty and that asteroids are separated by very large distances''

Now ''there's'' a source. Can I put that little bit back in now? [[User:Boogaloo|Boogaloo]] 11:27, 6 December 2006 (CST)
:That's pretty "science-y". The [[Template:Cite web|web cite]] would probably be the best way to cite it. My only concern with it is that the whole article is about our solar system's asteroid belt, but being as small as they are I don't think we could have much definitive info about belts in other systems. So I'd favor slapping a web cite template with that site info, and actually not using the sentence or anything in the article. It's copyrighted text so it's better to just provide the link via the cite (so people can check it themselves). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:53, 6 December 2006 (CST)
:I agree with Steelviper that extrapolation from Sol's asteroid belt doesn't definitively peg this as an error. My understanding (I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm mistaken) is that asteroids can either be closely spaced or not, but a system in which they are closely spaced is unstable - the collective gravity of so many bits of rock in close quarters will cause them to coalesce into some kind of planetary body. The context for what we see on screen is limited - for all we know the asteroids we see may very well be coalescing into one mass, but doing it slowly enough that it's not apparent within the time span of the episode.--[[User:Steve|Steve]] 03:45, 7 December 2006 (CST)
*Well, Sol's asteroid belt is a normal asteroid belt, so in a way it applies to all asteroid belts. And besides, I remember seeing countless asteroids in the distance during the episode. Well, regardless, whether it's a small asteroid or not, it's still an error. Asteroids are never (or extremely rarely at the very least) spaced so close together like they were shown. In deep space, objects rarely congregate so close together--they just hurtle through space. Obviously, the makers of the show used Star Wars as a reference on how asteroids are spaced. 2001: A Space Odyssey got it right: a passing through the asteroid belt is signfied by sighting of a lone, small asteroid shooting through space. Like it or not, it's an error, unless of course the Colonials collected asteroids and put them all together as some sort of bizarre pilot training course or something. [[User:Boogaloo|Boogaloo]] 05:10, 7 December 2006 (CST)
::Sol's asteroid belt is typical for a planetary system of a certain age, but the age of the system the Fleet is mining is never made clear (of course, it has nothing to do with the story). I fully agree that the environment depicted in the episode can't exist in a fully formed planetary system. However, as I understand it, in a young star's protoplanetary disk there would be regions like this, with gas, dust, and rocks of varying sizes all converging to form new and larger planetary bodies. This explanation (that they are mining a dense region in a protoplanetary disk, rather than a Sol-style asteroid belt) would fit nicely with the apparent density of the interplanetary medium in this episode's space sequences - it's so dense that the Vipers have visible wingtip vortices. I share your beef with conventional depictions of asteroid belts, I'm just not sure this qualifies as a clear scientific error or breach of naturalism. --[[User:Steve|Steve]] 06:13, 7 December 2006 (CST)

Talk:Scar/Archive 1

2006-12-07T09:45:45Z

Steve: Asteroid spacing

Talk:Scar/Archive 1

2006-12-06T12:07:21Z

Steve: Spin on asteroid spacing

Talk:Unfinished Business/Archive 1

2006-12-03T12:17:25Z

Steve: On second reading the note about Raptor cargo/supply shortages is fine as is

== The 'stache strikes again ==

Sweet mother of Artemis, does this http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000psspt/g274 mean what I think it means??? (Major incredibly mindblowing spoilers.)--[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 14:34, 10 November 2006 (CST)
:Depends on what you think. "Unfinished Business" consists largely of flashbacks to the missing year --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:42, 10 November 2006 (CST)
::I'm thinking that, since Roslin was no longer president, Adama felt like he could follow up on their Resurrection Ship kiss. The cigarettes both of them are holding pretty much sum that up for me. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 14:54, 10 November 2006 (CST)
:::That kiss wasn't really romantic in nature (shippers aside). The two are friends and probably haven't seen each other for a couple of months. Adama seems to enjoy being able to see a sky above his head again --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:59, 10 November 2006 (CST)
::::Probably right. I just got excited. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 15:01, 10 November 2006 (CST)
Is it just me or do you see a ring on Adama's wedding finger?? [[user:lordmutt|lordmutt]] 11:30, 11 November (EST)
:Adama's had the ring on since the Miniseries. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:45, 10 November 2006 (CST)
::::I like to imagine the whole Roslin-Adama lovey-lovey thing, but based on Mary McDonnell's video Q & A, this is more of a "(sigh) Well, frak, at least we're not getting shot at" scene. They do look like old friends, though, and that's comforting. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:34, 10 November 2006 (CST)

== Airdate ==
Why not on the day after Thanksgiving as it should be? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 17:13, 22 November 2006 (CST)
:Thats what it say on scifi website. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 17:28, 22 November 2006 (CST)
::I know, but what I mean is, why isn't Sci Fi airing it on the 24th. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 17:36, 22 November 2006 (CST)
:::Its [http://www.scifi.com/schedulebot/index.php3?date=24-NOV-2006&feed_req movie marathon] because of the holiday. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 17:40, 22 November 2006 (CST)
::Ever heard of "[[w:Black Friday|Black Friday]]"...? Also, every channel is practically running a marathon the day after, since ratings are typically down on the days following Thanksgiving, seeing as the day after Thanksgiving is the official start of the holiday shopping season. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:44, 22 November 2006 (CST)
:::I thought Black Friday just referred to shopping. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 17:46, 22 November 2006 (CST)

Damn, I just realized I'm gonna miss the 9 o'clock airing and possibly the 11 o'clock airing 'cause I have a date. (Plus it's my birthday on the 1st). --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 08:16, 30 November 2006 (CST)
:There's always iTunes, dude. And, happy birthday. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:49, 30 November 2006 (CST)
::Thanks man, and they also air it mondays at 11. And I think Fridays at 1AM. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:15, 30 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Unfinished Business/Archive 1

2006-12-03T12:14:35Z

Steve: Raptor cargo note

Datastream

2006-11-28T15:02:25Z

Steve: The clear liquid in Cylon datastreams has not been identified as water - changed all instances of "water" to "liquid" or "clear liquid"

[[Image:Baseshipcontrolinterface.jpg|thumb|300px|right|Cylons accessing the Datastream]]
The '''datastream''' is the name of the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] central [[Computers in the Re-imagined Series|computer]] network<ref>
Computer networks on the real-world Earth are very complex and come in many different designs. Computer specialists should note that the series tends not to provide detailed explanations of the nature of technology to drive the episode plot. The datastream's [[Wikipedia:Network topology|network topology]] or [[Wikipedia:Computer network|network design]] is unknown.</ref>.

A datastream is first seen in a Cylon facility on occupied [[New Caprica]], where the Colonial [[launch key]]s are held. [[Sharon Agathon]] uses her Cylon abilities to access the datastream to grant her access to the key's storage area ([[Exodus, Part I]]).

On a [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]], the datastream is literally composed of a stream of clear liquid, which is used in whole or in part as a transmission medium, a storage medium, or both.

Several [[Cylon agent]]s are seen using interfaces in a basestar's command and control center that consist of a illuminated panel covered by a thin layer of clear liquid, suggesting that the liquid may serve as both "display" and "input device" as an agent interfaces the datastream. This behavior is reinforced by the comparative lack of visual displays throughout the command and control center. All information appears to come from these liquid data interfaces.

The interfaces are normally used by the Cylons by placing their hand on the interface, making contact with the illuminated base and the thin liquid layer, which activates the [[Cylon data port|data ports]] within their arm. The interfaces can also be configured to show visual information such as still photography, such as the photos taken by [[Gaius Baltar]] during his exploration of a dying basestar that makes a reconnaissance mission to the [[Lion's Head Nebula]] ([[Torn]]).

The basestar's central computer, the [[Hybrid]], rests within a pool of liquid, connected to many conduits below the surface. Clear liquid drips on the Hybrid from above the pool, suggesting that data might be relayed to the Hybrid from the water surrounding and falling upon her in some fashion.

[[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] accompanies fellow members of a Colonial boarding party that investigates a basestar that [[Lymphocytic encephalitis|is found disabled in space]]. She instructs others to place "SSR leads" in a pool of clear liquid as she attempts to [[Cylon data port|access]] the basestar's computer database, hoping to make a data dump from the basestar to a Colonial data storage device.

''Datapoints''<ref>The source for datapoints is based on their use in context in the episode "[[Exodus, Part I]]" and "[[A Measure of Salvation]]."</ref> are either database records or specific subdatabases in the datastream. On New Caprica, Sharon "Athena" Agathon indicates to the [[New Caprica Resistance|resistance]] that the datapoints indicated that that launch keys she retrieved were not damaged. Some time later, on a disabled basestar, Athena attempts to access the basestar's datastream and finds its datapoints severely corroded, suggesting that the datastream (and datapoints) have an organic element that is as equally susceptible to damage as the Cylon agents.

After living Cylon agents are found and information on the ship's infection is discovered, the boarding team appears to abort their information gathering attempt ([[A Measure of Salvation]]).

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]
[[Category:Technology]]
[[Category:Technology (RDM)]]
[[Category:Terminology]]
[[Category:Terminology (RDM)]]

Talk:Hero/Archive2

2006-11-25T12:33:31Z

Steve:

== Can We compare Adama to President George....Washington? :) ==
I was reading the quote from Eick, "...Adama begins to believe that on some level he might have been responsible for provoking the Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies." and for some reason I felt that thie reminded me of Gorge Washington long before we was president or even commander-in-chief when, before the 7-Years-War, Washington was involved in a skirmish with the French over Fort Necessity, aka Pittsburgh (yes, we fought a battle for that city) that led to Washington signing a treaty stating, unbeknownst to him because he couldn't speak French and his interpreter sucked, that he committed attrocities against France in the name of the British Empire. This, according to many historians, led to the 7 Years War, known in America as the French and Indian War, that would decimate Northern Germany. I'm sure Washington at some level had to be aware of this error on his part and led him to remorse I imagine. Anyways, the story is different but I was wondering how many parallels there will be, if there will be, in this episode to Washington's conundrum. I wanted to ask a question on the article page but couldn't concise it enough for wiki standards. I may ask on the scifi bboard but input on this would be appreciated before I do. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 19:42, 3 August 2006 (PST)
:That's an interesting analogy, showing a fine attention to historical detail. I think the parallel has minor flaws, though, since Washington's conduct in that matter isn't generally considered morally wrong so much as foolish. [[Wikipedia:Gavrilo Princip|Gavrilo Princip]] might be worth considering as a parallel; he was the immediate but not ultimate cause of a devastating war, and he precipitated the conflict by attacking his fellow countryman, thinking it justified in contrast to the general consensus. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 02:28, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

:: It's unlikely that Adama's actions are quite the transgression that he believes it to be; after all, the [[cylon agent|Cylons had been violating the armistice line]] for about a half a year prior to Adama's, anyway.[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 02:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)

::: I was wondering about the timeline as well. I think Adama says somthing like, the mission was a year before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|attack]], but the cylons had been planning the attack for two years. However, I think there is an error in the timeline. Adama also says he served with Boomer for two years, and I think he implied that it was on Galactica. Gaeta also says that he served with Adama for three years. It is possible that Gaeta was on the Valkyrie for a year, but I think the mission happened about two years before the attack, not just one. I will rewatch the episode, but do you have any ideas? [[User:Jrmurph|Jrmurph]] 12:21, 18 November 2006 (EST)
:::: I think there is an inconsistency in the story. It is not unexplainable, ie Gaeta and Boomer served with Adama on the Valkyrie, but it did seem like nobody other than Adama or Tigh recognized Bulldog so the timeline is a little esquew. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:01, 18 November 2006 (CST)

Does anybody think it's strange that Adama believes it better to fire a weapon ACROSS the Armistice Line, INTO Cylon space, as opposed to allowing Novacek's ship to be discovered? A ship that close to the line could easily have been explained away as having strayed off course... but an offensive weapon fired into their space? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 01:54, 25 November 2006 (CST)

== Another Battlestar? ==
There is a spoiler image showing Adm Adama and Col Tigh in the CIC of the Battlestar Valkerie. I zoomed in on Adama and saw he had his Admiral's pins on. Might this be a sign that they soon will find yet another Battlestar? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:24, 15 November 2006 (CST)
: It's a flashback scene. It may be more of a costuming error. Note that Tigh still has his eye in that promo shot. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 01:39, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:: Right. Two eyed Tigh. Darn. I was hoping they'd find another Battlestar cause I do miss the Pegasus. It was bigger, much cooler and the doors made this cool "beep" when they opened. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:50, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:::You can visit [[Valkyrie]] as well. It's a spoiler until Friday but you can adjust it with some new data later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:36, 15 November 2006 (CST)
::::It's true, I saw the Admiral pips as well, the flashback should have been Commander pips; as the Stealth ship incident occurred three years ago. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 22:56, 17 November 2006 (CST)
: The Valkerie looked to be a Mercury class Battlestar. This would make sense because the galactica class was an older ship and has been all but replaced with the newer bigger and more efficent Mercury class.--[[User:Mike|Mike]] 09:30, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It's definately not a Mercury, the only part really similar is the engine block. If anything, it looked most like a reimagining of the original series battlestar, down to the rectangular opening in the flightpod and the angular head. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::Inside it looks like a Mercury yes. That's a sign of its age. But outside, it's far smaller than a full-sized battlestar. Look at the gun battery on the top. There's only one and almost covers the width of the ship there. See the Valkyrie page for more details (where this discussion should take place), but I think it's basically a smaller battlestar meant for support duties. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:52, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:: Not disagreeing with your main point, but its quite possible that there were far more Battlestar classes than just the "Cylon War Type" and the Mecurcy class, given that the colonies built up a fleet of arround 120 Battlestars over about 50 years, particularly as the Viper apparently went through 5 different itterations over this time, although we are likely never going to see the intervening versions of either type --[[User:Useless|Useless]] 09:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Barry Kennedy as Admiral Corman ==

Hey all, I was just checking on Barry Kennedy's link, and it links to an IMDB page other than his profile page detailing his filmography, and etc. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 23:52, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:That's because some people keep forgeting the "nm" when entering imdb numbers and in that case the link default to title instead of actor --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:53, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The Stealth-Star==
hey i just noticed this but the name of the ship was the stealth star so someone(not me)should create it a page. Best Snorkel378
:Already done [[Stealth Star]]. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:41, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The scene with Baltar, Six and Three in bed==
it says on there that 3 is having a sexual realationship with baltar and six?
Cylons arent lesbos i think they were having a 3some {{unsigned|Snorkel378}}
:You are assuming that the Six we see is Caprica-Six and not Baltar's internal Six. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 20:49, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It would be an odd choice cinematically to have Three wake up from a dream and show us something from inside Baltar's head. {{unsigned|Wldkt1}}
:::Please remembe rto sign your posts on talk pages guys <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:05, 19 November 2006 (CST)
The fact that Baltar and Six are in a 'clutch' position makes it unlikely that it's his internal Six. Three would have noticed Baltar trying to hug thin air in his sleep. Baltar is also in the center of the bed, rather than on one side. In addition, Caprica seems to be aware of (and approves) Three's new interest in Baltar. Regarding the possibility of a relationship between Three and Six: that is only speculation, but just because we haven't seen a lesbian relationship between cylons doesn't mean one isn't possible.[[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 22:18, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:It could be that Caprica-Six sees this as a way to weaken Baltar--after all, the formula for getting Baltar to give up secrets seems pretty clear: get in his bed, get in his head, so to speak. Remember that during the torture in previous episodes, he said to Three, "I love you with all of my heart." That's what started the relationship, so I think Three is interested in Baltar for whatever reason, not necessarily Six. Plus, on a more humorous note...I have to wonder if the Cylons have any sexual relations amongst themselves at all. This could be one deprived Cylon... [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:24, 20 November 2006 (CST)
Speculation on Cylon sexual orientation aside, I think we all can agree that Baltar is one lucky sonofabitch. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:28, 21 November 2006 (CST)
:weell, if put aside the whole electro-shock thing and the drilling in the ear thing. Face it, Baltar had to work hard for that threesome.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 09:47, 21 November 2006 (CST)
::Well, yes, he did work hard for it, but doesn't everyone work hard for a threesome? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 17:53, 21 November 2006 (CST)
A threesome with Six and Three would be cool, but personally, I think a threesome with two Eights would be awesome, and far better. But that's because the Eights are my favorites [[User:NickScryer|NickScryer]] 22:02, 21 November 2006 (CST)
:Personally, I find Lucy Lawless and Tricia Helfer to be hotter than Grace Park. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 17:50, 22 November 2006 (CST)

==The Black Ops Mission==
Does anyone think that the entire mission was poorly concieved? First, the Colonials jump a Battlestar to very close range of the armistice line, which one would expect to attract attention in and of itself. Second, we see the ''Valkyrie'' track the S-Star after launch and over the line. This either means the Valkyrie tracked it directly on DRADIS, which indicates it's not much of a stealth ship and that the Cylons should be able to detect it as well, or the S-Star has some sort of transponder reporting its position, which is also something the Cylons should detect. Finally, as referenced in the main article, the S-Star maintains radio contact with the ''Valkyrie'' throughout the whole mission, again something the Cylons should be able to detect. Would the writers have really overlooked all this, or are we meant to conclude that the Admriality meant for the mission to have been discovered by the Cylons? --[[User:Cleophus|Cleophus]] 22:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:-The mission is quite similar to the United States' U2 overflights during the late 1950's and 60's. Certain similarities between the depicted incident and the [[:wikipedia:U-2 Crisis of 1960|incident involving Francis Gary Powers]] can be read. It also conjures up several dozen observation flights by aircraft such as specially outfitted C-130's flying perilously close to a boundary line — even going so far as to slip a wingtip across it to "call a bluff". Also, there's the incident involving the Chinese Gai-8 fighter and the US P-3 Orion.
:In the case of our Colonials here, the stealth craft is more than likely equipped with an "odd frequency" (either very low or very high), encrypted transponder that transmits on a specific wavelength, only for IFF purposes. If I recall correctly, F-117 Nighthawks can still use their radios when on ops (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I suspect that this mission was proposed in order to get a glimpse into ''any'' Cylon activity. The stealth craft would be dangled out as a tiny bit of bait – just enough to get a response. Its stealth characteristics would increase its ability to dash back across the Armistice Line untracked and unaffected, and then ''Valkyrie'' would be able to observe and record the arriving Cylons. If questions were raised ("What are you doing here?" ... "Good question, what are ''you'' doing here?" ... "We detected you over the Armistice Line." ... "Who, us? Noooo... We've been on our side this whole time, just trolling about, watching over our miners over there on that moon there. So why are you here again? You don't mind if we take some photos of you while you're here, do you?"), the Colonials would feign ignorance and innocence, but they'd at least have a response... something that the Cylons haven't even projected in thirty-plus years. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:--Is it possible that the Stealth Star was shot down by a Colonial Force in hopes that it would percipitate a conflict? Similar to the Gulf of Tonkin? This way the Colonials can say one of their ships got lost and was destroyed by the Cylons in cold blood (Or something along those lines). Also, it makes no sense a ship would jump in, shoot the S-Star, and jump out. Why wouldnt it commit to killin the S-Star? --[[User:Skrip00|Skrip00]] 16:31, 20 November 2006 (CST)

:: Perhaps. We don't know either way. To be honest, after some seriously critical thought about it on my part, there's really not much of it that makes sense, since it was poorly explained in the episode. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:55, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==Folks in White Robes==
Aren't there five white-robed figures in Number Three's vision? It's pretty speculative, but maybe these are meant to represent the five missing Cylon models (maybe they've undergone some kind of transcendence, and are "with God now" or something). Maybe the article should note this (after all, the white-robes show up for the first time just a couple episodes after we first learn that there's definitely something different or mysterious about the five missing models), though I don't know the proper section for it. {{unsigned|Steve}}

:- I noticed that too, but was going to "acquire" the episode and re-watch that part, or watch it again on Monday to see... I _think_ there are five humanoid figures in white robes, kneeling or seated in that semi-circle when Three walks amongst them. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:Three's in the opera house on Kobol where Baltar's internal Six shows him Hera's cradle; I believe those are the same white drapes that can be seen on the opera house stage in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 11:38, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::Well I agree she's in the opera house from KLG, but I don't think I'm referring to the drapes. In the initial shot of the opera house, there seem to be five glowing figures standing between the six white drapes. Some of the quick shots of the opera house that follow show these figures, and some do not (as though they are alternately hiding and revealing themselves). At the end of her experience, Three approaches and reaches out to one of these figures just before she is resurrected. --[[User:Steve|Steve]] 02:50, 21 November 2006 (CST)

:::Sorry, you're right. I watched the episode again and noticed them. (Don't know why I missed them the first time, I was watching on a huge HDTV then!) I have a feeling that in the next few episodes, Three is going to keep having "accidental" deaths, and we'll see these figure again. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 20:26, 21 November 2006 (CST)

:::: Here's an iTunes [[:Image:3x8-Hero-MaybeTheLast5Cylons.jpg | screencap]]. 5 remaining cylons, 5 robed figures. Hmmmmm... --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 22:12, 24 November 2006 (CST)

== Reference to Raising Arizona? ==

I'm new here, so I didn't want to jump right into the thick of things by adding this to the main page before running it by other people...when Adama and Novacek are sitting down for the first time, Adama asks him something like "How did you escape, Bulldog?". Novacek rambles for a little bit (again, I don't remember exact words) but wraps up with "I felt the facility no longer had anything to offer me...". If I'm not mistaken, this is a reference to Raising Arizona--John Goodman's character says just about the exact same thing after he breaks out of prison. I can't seem to find the line on IMDB or Wikiquote, though... {{unsigned|MikeDanger}}
:Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:As far as I remember "Raising Arizona", the dialogue goes like this: 
:''- You busted outta jail?'' 
:''- No, ma'am. We released ourselves on our own recognizance.'' 
:''- What Evelle is tryin' to say is we felt the institution no longer had anything to offer us.'' -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 08:28, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Insight into Cylon plan ==
If the Cylons know where the Colonials are, or at least know well enough to send Bulldog at them, it's common sense to ask, why don't they just attack? Well, maybe their goal isn't to destroy Galactica et al outright but something more complex. One thing that does seem consistent with their plan is their desire to kill Adama, perhaps because they want to send the fleet into disarray without him at the top. Examples: Leoben telling Roslin that Adama's a Cylon in Flesh and Blood, Boomer shooting Adama repeatedly in Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. II. There may be more examples that I can't think of right now.

People have been crying out "plot hole!" with reckless abandon in light of Bulldog's ability to pinpoint Galactica's position, but if the Cylon plan really is as simple as ''kill all humans,'' as these detractors might claim, then much of the show falls apart. The reality is, we don't really know the Cylon plan, and at this point, there's really no reason to jump to the conclusion that the writers are just too lazy to think of one. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 18:22, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:The Cylons might know full well where the Colonials are but if they jumped in a couple of Basestars then the fleet would zip out of there pretty sharpish and might go somewhere where the Cylons dont know and they will have to find them all over again. IMO, their plan is a long game. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 19:17, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:IMHO, "Hero" is the weakest episode of the series yet. There's just too many logic errors for me to dismiss as part of the "suspension of disbelief" process. For instance, how does Bulldog have the time to learn how to pilot a Cylon raider, when Starbuck took hours to figure out how to operate the thing? Also, how would Bulldog be able to operate the FTL drive -- Kobol's Last Gleaming pretty much made it clear that the FTL drive needed an actual computer, given that the brain had to be ripped out in order for it to be piloted manually. But that's another not so fine mess.
: As for the Cylon plans, well, they're clearly compliated and seem to be changing since the attack. Whether or not this is by design has yet to be detrmined, though I sincerely doubt that the writer's have this thing all planned out a la ''Babylon 5''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:30, 19 November 2006 (CST)

::Yeah, I know what you're saying. I also doubt it's all planned out B5-style (hasn't Ron basically said something to that effect anyway, like how much they enjoy making it up as they go along?), but that doesn't mean it necessarily can't all add up in the end, and we should assume that they ''do'' know what they are doing until they are proven wrong.

::Also, a lot of people have been talking about how unrealistic it is for Bulldog to have learned how to operate the raider in such a short time. I'm not trying to start an arguement about this, but I don't actually remember them saying that he had only a short time to learn how to use the raider. Are you guys just assuming that he had to learn it all quickly based on the rushed nature of his escape? Is there a reason he couldn't have actually had a few hours to do it? I mean, if they let him escape, then he could have been in the basestar hangar for hours trying to work the controls while they watched (and snickered) from behind the glass. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 23:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:I agree that a lot of people have seemed predisposed to cry foul lately--I can understand how the scientific goofs in "A Measure of Salvation" could've set people on edge--but I do think it's possible that if the Cylons are operating under a religious motivation, that their plan does go beyond a simple "kill all humans" approach. They may see the need to exact specific steps of revenge/torture against humanity, perhaps a particular punishment for each perceived offense. That's just one possibility, but it could well be they have the death of a thousand cuts in mind for the remnants of humanity. I think Drumstick's probably on to something here. Or you know, if they wanted Bulldog to escape, they could have trained a Raider (which wasn't injured like Starbuck's) to understand and obey his commands or even set it up with an interface that a human could use. Until we see proof or disproof of all the different theories, I think it's too early to try to claim BsG has jumped the shark or anything similar. I also have to wonder if anybody here has writing experience with writing a full-length work. I am working on my first novel, and keeping total, perfect consistency is not easy and while I tend to get the big things right, I am still finding a lot of subtle things that need tweaking, and this despite my best efforts. [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:17, 20 November 2006 (CST)
:As an aside wrt the Cylon plan, Browndog's question from the Episode page:
::''Does the fact that Adama was potentialy responsible for starting the war explain why Galactica was important enougth to have 2 out of 12 human cylons on board during the start of the mini-series??--Browndog 14:17, 23 November 2006 (CST)''
:I think that it's plausable considering the roles that Boomer and Doral were playing at the time that their both being on Galactica at the time of the Attack is simply a coincidence. Short of conspiracy within the Fellt Boomer is asigned where she's needed, and Doral's position as a civil servant would have been a good cover for a Cylon spy.--[[User:Whytwolf|Whyte Wolf]] 20:01, 23 November 2006 (CST)

== Possible Discontinuity ==
According to the episode, Adama and friends served on the Valkyrie a year before the attacks. This implies that Adama was only commander of the Galactica for a year before the miniseries. Yet on the Kara Thrace article, it states that Thrace "resigned from flight school as a instructor and transferred as an operational pilot aboard battlestar Galactica under the command of William Adama, where she served for some '''two years prior to the Cylon attack''' on the Twelve Colonies." They can't both be right.

Also, from the Tyrol article: "He served aboard battlestars from the age of eighteen, including Columbia, Atlantia, and Pegasus (Resistance). He has served under William Adama on Galactica for five years (Litmus)." If he served under Adama for 5 years, why didn't he mention the Valkyrie when he was being intimidated by Tigh in Resistance? This could be simply because Tigh would have known that.--[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 22:16, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:No, your first impulse is correct - it's quite certainly an error.
:'''Gaeta:''' And... may I take this opportunity to say that it's been both a pleasure and an honour to serve under you [Adama], these past three years. ([[Miniseries]])
:'''Adama:''' We [Thrace and I] talked about a lot of things. We've been aboard this ship for over two years, we know each other very well. ([[Act of Contrition]])
:'''Adama:''' She [Valerii] was more than that to us. She was more than that to me. She was a vital, living person... aboard my ship for almost two years. She couldn’t have been just a machine. Could you love a machine? ([[The Farm]])
:Also, note that the timeline in Adama's dossier (which seems to be accurate based on other data points) puts his transfer to ''Galactica'' at six years prior to the miniseries.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:48, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::It is quite possible that this is not an error ''per se''. Adama and some of his command staff could easily have been assigned to the more modern Valkyrie from Galactica for the mission. It wouldn't make much sense to send "the bucket" on a stealth mission anyway. Notice Valkyrie seemed smaller and was probably more modernized, which would make it all the better for that type of mission. So Adama could easily have been in command of Galactica for several years prior, been offered command of Valkyrie as a reward, for career advancement or just for the mission... and have been pushed back to Galactica when the mission failed. Certainly the plan to decommission Galactica was in the works for some time, and they would not want one of their good commanders to retire with the ship... until after the mission where he failed. None of the characters would be expected to say "I served under Adama for some years, and some other guy for a couple of months, then Adama again." They would just say they served with him for X number of years. If we compare to the modern US Navy, this sort of thing is not all the uncommon.--[[User:Xealot|Xealot]] 10:22, 20 November 2006 (CST)
:::The dossier's progression from XO of ''Columbia'' to Commander of ''Valkyrie'' to Commander of ''Galactica'' seems to indicate that ''Valkyrie'' was his first battlestar command. Though I agree that the serve under "X years" would fly if they stayed under him. It's just the "this ship"'s that start biting them. (When they specify the ship instead of the command.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:53, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::It's really embarassing in continuity. If they had put the entire affair a few years further into the past, it would have made much more sense not only in Adamas biography, but also in the overall plot. Boomer served on ''Galactica'' for two years and probably spend some additional time at flight school, so Adama must know the Cylon infiltration started long before the Stealth-Star incident. This should really get Adama to ask himself how long the attack had been planned, though he might convince himself that the Cylons put their infiltrators in place just as a precaution and his actions led to their decision to actually use them. A few years more time between the attack and the incident would put the estimated start of Cylon infiltration (which actually could be anywhere between 2 and 20 years before the attack) around the same time, giving Adama a far more powerful reason to believe that he started it right there. I would like to think that putting the incident one year before attack was just an accident, but then it would probably become even more difficult to explain how Bulldog survived that long.

::Another point that's problematic: did ''Valkyrie'' have an integrated computer-network? Up to this episode all information we had suggested that all battlestars save ''Galactica'' had them and that it was Adamas position of ''no network on my ship'' that prevented an upgrade.

::*If ''Valkyrie'' had a network Adamas politics of ''it's all hand on here'' are somewhat harder to believe. Up to now it looked like the position of a war-veteran who opposed networks on principle, this is harder to believe if he already commanded a ship with such a network.

::*If there was no network on ''Valkyrie'', then why wasn't there one? It appears extremely unlikely that the networks were all installed in the time between the incident and the attack, though the decision cannot have been made to long before Adama took command of ''Galactica'', because the previous commander would probably have had it installed. And given that it must have been a major decision to put networks on battlestars once more it's hard to believe that the Admirality would allow commanders to pull the plug on it as they see fit. I can imagine Adamas opposition being tolerated on ''Galactica'', because it was an old battlestar nearing it's decommissioning with a design that may have been especially hard to upgrade (regardless of Gaetas patchwork in [[Scattered]]). They could have simply decided that it was not worth the effort to force Adama to accept the upgrade. But that would be hard to believe for ''Valkyrie'', if you are sending a battlestar on such a sensitive mission you want it at maximum performance. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:49, 20 November 2006 (CST)

:::The network thing isn't hugely problematic. We have no notion of how old ''Valkyrie'' was. ''Atlantia'' was at least 17 years old at the time of the attack (based on Adama's dossier), and was still worthy to serve as Nagala's flagship in the Miniseries. ''Galactica'' was even older. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

:Adama's dossier may or may not help matters. If the screencap interpretation in the article is correct, then it is currently 21356 - based on the 45th anniversary of Adama's commissioning - which is consistent with what we know about Colonial Day and the Armistice. Therefore the Fall of the Colonies occurred in 21354, and that means the Valkyrie incident occurred in 21353 or thereabouts. However, the dossier goes on to state that Adama took command of Valkyrie in 21345, and Galactica in 21348. If the dossier is correct, then the Valkyrie incident had to take place in 21347 or 21348...which means that Adama's "graceful retirement" lasted for 6 years until the Fall. If this timeline is correct, then it basically blows all the dialogue in this episode out of the water, but validates everything we've seen and heard in the first two seasons. Of course, this is all contingent on the dossier being correctly interpreted - and I personally cannot make out the last two dates on screen. --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 19:55, 21 November 2006 (CST)

::That was the conclusion we came to above. The Dossier is [[:image:dossier.png|entirely legible]] and is visible on screen for over sixty frames. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:31, 21 November 2006 (CST)

:::I missed that part. That image is a lot clearer than the screenshot I had, as well. --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 10:24, 22 November 2006 (CST)

== Cylon detector problems ==

There's some inconsistency with the "Cylon Detector" that Doc Cottle used to determine that Bulldog was a human. First of all, if you look at the screen caps, [http://galacticabbs.com/index.php?act=module&module=gallery&cmd=si&img=56612|like this one], you can see that the screen says "-RESULTS NEGATIVE-" If he was testing the DNA against their military records, it should say "-RESULTS POSITIVE-" If it's negative, the DNA doesn't match. That, or it's supposed to be a Cylon Detector, and it's saying that he's not a Cylon. It seems like it could be a simple goof between dialogue and props.

However, going along with the DNA reasoning... that doesn't necessarily prove anything, does it? If they tested Boomer's DNA against the DNA they have on record for her, I assume it's going to match, since they probably took Cylon DNA initially. Who's to say that the same thing didn't happen to Bulldog? In that case, his DNA would match, but he'd be a Cylon. Seems like a poor determiner of race, that's all. I don't think that he's necessarily a Cylon, just that this is another "oops."

--It might prove something...if the Colonials have DNA records going all the way back to a person's birth. If they're matching against that kind of original record (heck, maybe they even have the parents' records, too), then that may well constitute proof. [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:06, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Moved content ==

Folks, stuff like this needs to be removed (or reworded) on sight. Right now, this document reads a bit like it's arguing with itself. Before adding content that seems to contradict itself, please discuss it on the talk page -- that's what this feature is for.

Below, here's what I've removed thus far from the article that contradicts itself. Stuff like this, ''again'', must be hashed out on talk pages before entering the main article space. Thank you. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:52, 20 November 2006 (CST)

=== Removed content ===

*[[Dualla]] apparently served on the Valkyrie; she can be seen in the background standing behind Adama and Tigh in the flashback scenes.
**That person in the scene is most likley not Dualla; it's not easy to see because the flashback-scenes in the CIC have (deliberatly) not the best quality.

== Adama's Dossier ==
I feel that the dossier info should be moved to its own article. It really isn't a "standard" part of an episode article. Or if there is enough room for it in [[William Adama]], maybe move it to that article. A lot of room dedicated to what is pretty much a sidenote for the events that occur in the episode itself. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 13:17, 24 November 2006 (CST)
: I agree. The best place for it is in the [[William Adama]] article, in my view. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:03, 24 November 2006 (CST)

== Bullsh*t ==
In the iTunes download, Adama said "bullshit attitude" to Bulldog. In the SciFi version, it was bleeped out, was it not?
:What time count? I'll check --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 13:28, 24 November 2006 (CST)
::It was definately bleeped out in the SciFi broadcast. I noticed it while watching it last week. It's when Adama is talking with Bulldog shortly after he is rescued from the Cylons. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 13:59, 24 November 2006 (CST)
:::It survived the Canadian broadcast on SPACE. I remember I smiled when I heard it and thought "how the hell did they get away with that in the states?" For some reason anything short of fuck coasts by unedited on Canadian basic cable. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 19:52, 24 November 2006 (CST)
:::: I'm Canadian and I should probably know more about this than I do, but a friend who worked in broadcasting for years told me it was because the CRTC goes by a complaint system for censoring profanity, whereas the FCC actively polices the American airwaves. One Vancouver TV station aired the South Park movie uncut and unbleeped last Canada Day (at around 3 in the morning). --[[User:Steve|Steve]] 06:33, 25 November 2006 (CST)
:Yeah, the bullshit was bleeped out. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:54, 24 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Hero/Archive2

2006-11-25T12:04:34Z

Steve:

== Can We compare Adama to President George....Washington? :) ==
I was reading the quote from Eick, "...Adama begins to believe that on some level he might have been responsible for provoking the Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies." and for some reason I felt that thie reminded me of Gorge Washington long before we was president or even commander-in-chief when, before the 7-Years-War, Washington was involved in a skirmish with the French over Fort Necessity, aka Pittsburgh (yes, we fought a battle for that city) that led to Washington signing a treaty stating, unbeknownst to him because he couldn't speak French and his interpreter sucked, that he committed attrocities against France in the name of the British Empire. This, according to many historians, led to the 7 Years War, known in America as the French and Indian War, that would decimate Northern Germany. I'm sure Washington at some level had to be aware of this error on his part and led him to remorse I imagine. Anyways, the story is different but I was wondering how many parallels there will be, if there will be, in this episode to Washington's conundrum. I wanted to ask a question on the article page but couldn't concise it enough for wiki standards. I may ask on the scifi bboard but input on this would be appreciated before I do. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 19:42, 3 August 2006 (PST)
:That's an interesting analogy, showing a fine attention to historical detail. I think the parallel has minor flaws, though, since Washington's conduct in that matter isn't generally considered morally wrong so much as foolish. [[Wikipedia:Gavrilo Princip|Gavrilo Princip]] might be worth considering as a parallel; he was the immediate but not ultimate cause of a devastating war, and he precipitated the conflict by attacking his fellow countryman, thinking it justified in contrast to the general consensus. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 02:28, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

:: It's unlikely that Adama's actions are quite the transgression that he believes it to be; after all, the [[cylon agent|Cylons had been violating the armistice line]] for about a half a year prior to Adama's, anyway.[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 02:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)

::: I was wondering about the timeline as well. I think Adama says somthing like, the mission was a year before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|attack]], but the cylons had been planning the attack for two years. However, I think there is an error in the timeline. Adama also says he served with Boomer for two years, and I think he implied that it was on Galactica. Gaeta also says that he served with Adama for three years. It is possible that Gaeta was on the Valkyrie for a year, but I think the mission happened about two years before the attack, not just one. I will rewatch the episode, but do you have any ideas? [[User:Jrmurph|Jrmurph]] 12:21, 18 November 2006 (EST)
:::: I think there is an inconsistency in the story. It is not unexplainable, ie Gaeta and Boomer served with Adama on the Valkyrie, but it did seem like nobody other than Adama or Tigh recognized Bulldog so the timeline is a little esquew. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:01, 18 November 2006 (CST)

Does anybody think it's strange that Adama believes it better to fire a weapon ACROSS the Armistice Line, INTO Cylon space, as opposed to allowing Novacek's ship to be discovered? A ship that close to the line could easily have been explained away as having strayed off course... but an offensive weapon fired into their space? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 01:54, 25 November 2006 (CST)

== Another Battlestar? ==
There is a spoiler image showing Adm Adama and Col Tigh in the CIC of the Battlestar Valkerie. I zoomed in on Adama and saw he had his Admiral's pins on. Might this be a sign that they soon will find yet another Battlestar? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:24, 15 November 2006 (CST)
: It's a flashback scene. It may be more of a costuming error. Note that Tigh still has his eye in that promo shot. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 01:39, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:: Right. Two eyed Tigh. Darn. I was hoping they'd find another Battlestar cause I do miss the Pegasus. It was bigger, much cooler and the doors made this cool "beep" when they opened. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:50, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:::You can visit [[Valkyrie]] as well. It's a spoiler until Friday but you can adjust it with some new data later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:36, 15 November 2006 (CST)
::::It's true, I saw the Admiral pips as well, the flashback should have been Commander pips; as the Stealth ship incident occurred three years ago. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 22:56, 17 November 2006 (CST)
: The Valkerie looked to be a Mercury class Battlestar. This would make sense because the galactica class was an older ship and has been all but replaced with the newer bigger and more efficent Mercury class.--[[User:Mike|Mike]] 09:30, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It's definately not a Mercury, the only part really similar is the engine block. If anything, it looked most like a reimagining of the original series battlestar, down to the rectangular opening in the flightpod and the angular head. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::Inside it looks like a Mercury yes. That's a sign of its age. But outside, it's far smaller than a full-sized battlestar. Look at the gun battery on the top. There's only one and almost covers the width of the ship there. See the Valkyrie page for more details (where this discussion should take place), but I think it's basically a smaller battlestar meant for support duties. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:52, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:: Not disagreeing with your main point, but its quite possible that there were far more Battlestar classes than just the "Cylon War Type" and the Mecurcy class, given that the colonies built up a fleet of arround 120 Battlestars over about 50 years, particularly as the Viper apparently went through 5 different itterations over this time, although we are likely never going to see the intervening versions of either type --[[User:Useless|Useless]] 09:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Barry Kennedy as Admiral Corman ==

Hey all, I was just checking on Barry Kennedy's link, and it links to an IMDB page other than his profile page detailing his filmography, and etc. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 23:52, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:That's because some people keep forgeting the "nm" when entering imdb numbers and in that case the link default to title instead of actor --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:53, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The Stealth-Star==
hey i just noticed this but the name of the ship was the stealth star so someone(not me)should create it a page. Best Snorkel378
:Already done [[Stealth Star]]. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:41, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The scene with Baltar, Six and Three in bed==
it says on there that 3 is having a sexual realationship with baltar and six?
Cylons arent lesbos i think they were having a 3some {{unsigned|Snorkel378}}
:You are assuming that the Six we see is Caprica-Six and not Baltar's internal Six. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 20:49, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It would be an odd choice cinematically to have Three wake up from a dream and show us something from inside Baltar's head. {{unsigned|Wldkt1}}
:::Please remembe rto sign your posts on talk pages guys <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:05, 19 November 2006 (CST)
The fact that Baltar and Six are in a 'clutch' position makes it unlikely that it's his internal Six. Three would have noticed Baltar trying to hug thin air in his sleep. Baltar is also in the center of the bed, rather than on one side. In addition, Caprica seems to be aware of (and approves) Three's new interest in Baltar. Regarding the possibility of a relationship between Three and Six: that is only speculation, but just because we haven't seen a lesbian relationship between cylons doesn't mean one isn't possible.[[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 22:18, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:It could be that Caprica-Six sees this as a way to weaken Baltar--after all, the formula for getting Baltar to give up secrets seems pretty clear: get in his bed, get in his head, so to speak. Remember that during the torture in previous episodes, he said to Three, "I love you with all of my heart." That's what started the relationship, so I think Three is interested in Baltar for whatever reason, not necessarily Six. Plus, on a more humorous note...I have to wonder if the Cylons have any sexual relations amongst themselves at all. This could be one deprived Cylon... [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:24, 20 November 2006 (CST)
Speculation on Cylon sexual orientation aside, I think we all can agree that Baltar is one lucky sonofabitch. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:28, 21 November 2006 (CST)
:weell, if put aside the whole electro-shock thing and the drilling in the ear thing. Face it, Baltar had to work hard for that threesome.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 09:47, 21 November 2006 (CST)
::Well, yes, he did work hard for it, but doesn't everyone work hard for a threesome? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 17:53, 21 November 2006 (CST)
A threesome with Six and Three would be cool, but personally, I think a threesome with two Eights would be awesome, and far better. But that's because the Eights are my favorites [[User:NickScryer|NickScryer]] 22:02, 21 November 2006 (CST)
:Personally, I find Lucy Lawless and Tricia Helfer to be hotter than Grace Park. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 17:50, 22 November 2006 (CST)

==The Black Ops Mission==
Does anyone think that the entire mission was poorly concieved? First, the Colonials jump a Battlestar to very close range of the armistice line, which one would expect to attract attention in and of itself. Second, we see the ''Valkyrie'' track the S-Star after launch and over the line. This either means the Valkyrie tracked it directly on DRADIS, which indicates it's not much of a stealth ship and that the Cylons should be able to detect it as well, or the S-Star has some sort of transponder reporting its position, which is also something the Cylons should detect. Finally, as referenced in the main article, the S-Star maintains radio contact with the ''Valkyrie'' throughout the whole mission, again something the Cylons should be able to detect. Would the writers have really overlooked all this, or are we meant to conclude that the Admriality meant for the mission to have been discovered by the Cylons? --[[User:Cleophus|Cleophus]] 22:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:-The mission is quite similar to the United States' U2 overflights during the late 1950's and 60's. Certain similarities between the depicted incident and the [[:wikipedia:U-2 Crisis of 1960|incident involving Francis Gary Powers]] can be read. It also conjures up several dozen observation flights by aircraft such as specially outfitted C-130's flying perilously close to a boundary line — even going so far as to slip a wingtip across it to "call a bluff". Also, there's the incident involving the Chinese Gai-8 fighter and the US P-3 Orion.
:In the case of our Colonials here, the stealth craft is more than likely equipped with an "odd frequency" (either very low or very high), encrypted transponder that transmits on a specific wavelength, only for IFF purposes. If I recall correctly, F-117 Nighthawks can still use their radios when on ops (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I suspect that this mission was proposed in order to get a glimpse into ''any'' Cylon activity. The stealth craft would be dangled out as a tiny bit of bait – just enough to get a response. Its stealth characteristics would increase its ability to dash back across the Armistice Line untracked and unaffected, and then ''Valkyrie'' would be able to observe and record the arriving Cylons. If questions were raised ("What are you doing here?" ... "Good question, what are ''you'' doing here?" ... "We detected you over the Armistice Line." ... "Who, us? Noooo... We've been on our side this whole time, just trolling about, watching over our miners over there on that moon there. So why are you here again? You don't mind if we take some photos of you while you're here, do you?"), the Colonials would feign ignorance and innocence, but they'd at least have a response... something that the Cylons haven't even projected in thirty-plus years. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:--Is it possible that the Stealth Star was shot down by a Colonial Force in hopes that it would percipitate a conflict? Similar to the Gulf of Tonkin? This way the Colonials can say one of their ships got lost and was destroyed by the Cylons in cold blood (Or something along those lines). Also, it makes no sense a ship would jump in, shoot the S-Star, and jump out. Why wouldnt it commit to killin the S-Star? --[[User:Skrip00|Skrip00]] 16:31, 20 November 2006 (CST)

:: Perhaps. We don't know either way. To be honest, after some seriously critical thought about it on my part, there's really not much of it that makes sense, since it was poorly explained in the episode. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:55, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==Folks in White Robes==
Aren't there five white-robed figures in Number Three's vision? It's pretty speculative, but maybe these are meant to represent the five missing Cylon models (maybe they've undergone some kind of transcendence, and are "with God now" or something). Maybe the article should note this (after all, the white-robes show up for the first time just a couple episodes after we first learn that there's definitely something different or mysterious about the five missing models), though I don't know the proper section for it. {{unsigned|Steve}}

:- I noticed that too, but was going to "acquire" the episode and re-watch that part, or watch it again on Monday to see... I _think_ there are five humanoid figures in white robes, kneeling or seated in that semi-circle when Three walks amongst them. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:Three's in the opera house on Kobol where Baltar's internal Six shows him Hera's cradle; I believe those are the same white drapes that can be seen on the opera house stage in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 11:38, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::Well I agree she's in the opera house from KLG, but I don't think I'm referring to the drapes. In the initial shot of the opera house, there seem to be five glowing figures standing between the six white drapes. Some of the quick shots of the opera house that follow show these figures, and some do not (as though they are alternately hiding and revealing themselves). At the end of her experience, Three approaches and reaches out to one of these figures just before she is resurrected. --[[User:Steve|Steve]] 02:50, 21 November 2006 (CST)

:::Sorry, you're right. I watched the episode again and noticed them. (Don't know why I missed them the first time, I was watching on a huge HDTV then!) I have a feeling that in the next few episodes, Three is going to keep having "accidental" deaths, and we'll see these figure again. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 20:26, 21 November 2006 (CST)

:::: Here's an iTunes [[:Image:3x8-Hero-MaybeTheLast5Cylons.jpg | screencap]]. 5 remaining cylons, 5 robed figures. Hmmmmm... --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 22:12, 24 November 2006 (CST)

== Reference to Raising Arizona? ==

I'm new here, so I didn't want to jump right into the thick of things by adding this to the main page before running it by other people...when Adama and Novacek are sitting down for the first time, Adama asks him something like "How did you escape, Bulldog?". Novacek rambles for a little bit (again, I don't remember exact words) but wraps up with "I felt the facility no longer had anything to offer me...". If I'm not mistaken, this is a reference to Raising Arizona--John Goodman's character says just about the exact same thing after he breaks out of prison. I can't seem to find the line on IMDB or Wikiquote, though... {{unsigned|MikeDanger}}
:Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:As far as I remember "Raising Arizona", the dialogue goes like this: 
:''- You busted outta jail?'' 
:''- No, ma'am. We released ourselves on our own recognizance.'' 
:''- What Evelle is tryin' to say is we felt the institution no longer had anything to offer us.'' -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 08:28, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Insight into Cylon plan ==
If the Cylons know where the Colonials are, or at least know well enough to send Bulldog at them, it's common sense to ask, why don't they just attack? Well, maybe their goal isn't to destroy Galactica et al outright but something more complex. One thing that does seem consistent with their plan is their desire to kill Adama, perhaps because they want to send the fleet into disarray without him at the top. Examples: Leoben telling Roslin that Adama's a Cylon in Flesh and Blood, Boomer shooting Adama repeatedly in Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. II. There may be more examples that I can't think of right now.

People have been crying out "plot hole!" with reckless abandon in light of Bulldog's ability to pinpoint Galactica's position, but if the Cylon plan really is as simple as ''kill all humans,'' as these detractors might claim, then much of the show falls apart. The reality is, we don't really know the Cylon plan, and at this point, there's really no reason to jump to the conclusion that the writers are just too lazy to think of one. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 18:22, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:The Cylons might know full well where the Colonials are but if they jumped in a couple of Basestars then the fleet would zip out of there pretty sharpish and might go somewhere where the Cylons dont know and they will have to find them all over again. IMO, their plan is a long game. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 19:17, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:IMHO, "Hero" is the weakest episode of the series yet. There's just too many logic errors for me to dismiss as part of the "suspension of disbelief" process. For instance, how does Bulldog have the time to learn how to pilot a Cylon raider, when Starbuck took hours to figure out how to operate the thing? Also, how would Bulldog be able to operate the FTL drive -- Kobol's Last Gleaming pretty much made it clear that the FTL drive needed an actual computer, given that the brain had to be ripped out in order for it to be piloted manually. But that's another not so fine mess.
: As for the Cylon plans, well, they're clearly compliated and seem to be changing since the attack. Whether or not this is by design has yet to be detrmined, though I sincerely doubt that the writer's have this thing all planned out a la ''Babylon 5''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:30, 19 November 2006 (CST)

::Yeah, I know what you're saying. I also doubt it's all planned out B5-style (hasn't Ron basically said something to that effect anyway, like how much they enjoy making it up as they go along?), but that doesn't mean it necessarily can't all add up in the end, and we should assume that they ''do'' know what they are doing until they are proven wrong.

::Also, a lot of people have been talking about how unrealistic it is for Bulldog to have learned how to operate the raider in such a short time. I'm not trying to start an arguement about this, but I don't actually remember them saying that he had only a short time to learn how to use the raider. Are you guys just assuming that he had to learn it all quickly based on the rushed nature of his escape? Is there a reason he couldn't have actually had a few hours to do it? I mean, if they let him escape, then he could have been in the basestar hangar for hours trying to work the controls while they watched (and snickered) from behind the glass. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 23:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:I agree that a lot of people have seemed predisposed to cry foul lately--I can understand how the scientific goofs in "A Measure of Salvation" could've set people on edge--but I do think it's possible that if the Cylons are operating under a religious motivation, that their plan does go beyond a simple "kill all humans" approach. They may see the need to exact specific steps of revenge/torture against humanity, perhaps a particular punishment for each perceived offense. That's just one possibility, but it could well be they have the death of a thousand cuts in mind for the remnants of humanity. I think Drumstick's probably on to something here. Or you know, if they wanted Bulldog to escape, they could have trained a Raider (which wasn't injured like Starbuck's) to understand and obey his commands or even set it up with an interface that a human could use. Until we see proof or disproof of all the different theories, I think it's too early to try to claim BsG has jumped the shark or anything similar. I also have to wonder if anybody here has writing experience with writing a full-length work. I am working on my first novel, and keeping total, perfect consistency is not easy and while I tend to get the big things right, I am still finding a lot of subtle things that need tweaking, and this despite my best efforts. [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:17, 20 November 2006 (CST)
:As an aside wrt the Cylon plan, Browndog's question from the Episode page:
::''Does the fact that Adama was potentialy responsible for starting the war explain why Galactica was important enougth to have 2 out of 12 human cylons on board during the start of the mini-series??--Browndog 14:17, 23 November 2006 (CST)''
:I think that it's plausable considering the roles that Boomer and Doral were playing at the time that their both being on Galactica at the time of the Attack is simply a coincidence. Short of conspiracy within the Fellt Boomer is asigned where she's needed, and Doral's position as a civil servant would have been a good cover for a Cylon spy.--[[User:Whytwolf|Whyte Wolf]] 20:01, 23 November 2006 (CST)

== Possible Discontinuity ==
According to the episode, Adama and friends served on the Valkyrie a year before the attacks. This implies that Adama was only commander of the Galactica for a year before the miniseries. Yet on the Kara Thrace article, it states that Thrace "resigned from flight school as a instructor and transferred as an operational pilot aboard battlestar Galactica under the command of William Adama, where she served for some '''two years prior to the Cylon attack''' on the Twelve Colonies." They can't both be right.

Also, from the Tyrol article: "He served aboard battlestars from the age of eighteen, including Columbia, Atlantia, and Pegasus (Resistance). He has served under William Adama on Galactica for five years (Litmus)." If he served under Adama for 5 years, why didn't he mention the Valkyrie when he was being intimidated by Tigh in Resistance? This could be simply because Tigh would have known that.--[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 22:16, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:No, your first impulse is correct - it's quite certainly an error.
:'''Gaeta:''' And... may I take this opportunity to say that it's been both a pleasure and an honour to serve under you [Adama], these past three years. ([[Miniseries]])
:'''Adama:''' We [Thrace and I] talked about a lot of things. We've been aboard this ship for over two years, we know each other very well. ([[Act of Contrition]])
:'''Adama:''' She [Valerii] was more than that to us. She was more than that to me. She was a vital, living person... aboard my ship for almost two years. She couldn’t have been just a machine. Could you love a machine? ([[The Farm]])
:Also, note that the timeline in Adama's dossier (which seems to be accurate based on other data points) puts his transfer to ''Galactica'' at six years prior to the miniseries.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:48, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::It is quite possible that this is not an error ''per se''. Adama and some of his command staff could easily have been assigned to the more modern Valkyrie from Galactica for the mission. It wouldn't make much sense to send "the bucket" on a stealth mission anyway. Notice Valkyrie seemed smaller and was probably more modernized, which would make it all the better for that type of mission. So Adama could easily have been in command of Galactica for several years prior, been offered command of Valkyrie as a reward, for career advancement or just for the mission... and have been pushed back to Galactica when the mission failed. Certainly the plan to decommission Galactica was in the works for some time, and they would not want one of their good commanders to retire with the ship... until after the mission where he failed. None of the characters would be expected to say "I served under Adama for some years, and some other guy for a couple of months, then Adama again." They would just say they served with him for X number of years. If we compare to the modern US Navy, this sort of thing is not all the uncommon.--[[User:Xealot|Xealot]] 10:22, 20 November 2006 (CST)
:::The dossier's progression from XO of ''Columbia'' to Commander of ''Valkyrie'' to Commander of ''Galactica'' seems to indicate that ''Valkyrie'' was his first battlestar command. Though I agree that the serve under "X years" would fly if they stayed under him. It's just the "this ship"'s that start biting them. (When they specify the ship instead of the command.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:53, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::It's really embarassing in continuity. If they had put the entire affair a few years further into the past, it would have made much more sense not only in Adamas biography, but also in the overall plot. Boomer served on ''Galactica'' for two years and probably spend some additional time at flight school, so Adama must know the Cylon infiltration started long before the Stealth-Star incident. This should really get Adama to ask himself how long the attack had been planned, though he might convince himself that the Cylons put their infiltrators in place just as a precaution and his actions led to their decision to actually use them. A few years more time between the attack and the incident would put the estimated start of Cylon infiltration (which actually could be anywhere between 2 and 20 years before the attack) around the same time, giving Adama a far more powerful reason to believe that he started it right there. I would like to think that putting the incident one year before attack was just an accident, but then it would probably become even more difficult to explain how Bulldog survived that long.

::Another point that's problematic: did ''Valkyrie'' have an integrated computer-network? Up to this episode all information we had suggested that all battlestars save ''Galactica'' had them and that it was Adamas position of ''no network on my ship'' that prevented an upgrade.

::*If ''Valkyrie'' had a network Adamas politics of ''it's all hand on here'' are somewhat harder to believe. Up to now it looked like the position of a war-veteran who opposed networks on principle, this is harder to believe if he already commanded a ship with such a network.

::*If there was no network on ''Valkyrie'', then why wasn't there one? It appears extremely unlikely that the networks were all installed in the time between the incident and the attack, though the decision cannot have been made to long before Adama took command of ''Galactica'', because the previous commander would probably have had it installed. And given that it must have been a major decision to put networks on battlestars once more it's hard to believe that the Admirality would allow commanders to pull the plug on it as they see fit. I can imagine Adamas opposition being tolerated on ''Galactica'', because it was an old battlestar nearing it's decommissioning with a design that may have been especially hard to upgrade (regardless of Gaetas patchwork in [[Scattered]]). They could have simply decided that it was not worth the effort to force Adama to accept the upgrade. But that would be hard to believe for ''Valkyrie'', if you are sending a battlestar on such a sensitive mission you want it at maximum performance. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:49, 20 November 2006 (CST)

:::The network thing isn't hugely problematic. We have no notion of how old ''Valkyrie'' was. ''Atlantia'' was at least 17 years old at the time of the attack (based on Adama's dossier), and was still worthy to serve as Nagala's flagship in the Miniseries. ''Galactica'' was even older. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

:Adama's dossier may or may not help matters. If the screencap interpretation in the article is correct, then it is currently 21356 - based on the 45th anniversary of Adama's commissioning - which is consistent with what we know about Colonial Day and the Armistice. Therefore the Fall of the Colonies occurred in 21354, and that means the Valkyrie incident occurred in 21353 or thereabouts. However, the dossier goes on to state that Adama took command of Valkyrie in 21345, and Galactica in 21348. If the dossier is correct, then the Valkyrie incident had to take place in 21347 or 21348...which means that Adama's "graceful retirement" lasted for 6 years until the Fall. If this timeline is correct, then it basically blows all the dialogue in this episode out of the water, but validates everything we've seen and heard in the first two seasons. Of course, this is all contingent on the dossier being correctly interpreted - and I personally cannot make out the last two dates on screen. --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 19:55, 21 November 2006 (CST)

::That was the conclusion we came to above. The Dossier is [[:image:dossier.png|entirely legible]] and is visible on screen for over sixty frames. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:31, 21 November 2006 (CST)

:::I missed that part. That image is a lot clearer than the screenshot I had, as well. --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 10:24, 22 November 2006 (CST)

== Cylon detector problems ==

There's some inconsistency with the "Cylon Detector" that Doc Cottle used to determine that Bulldog was a human. First of all, if you look at the screen caps, [http://galacticabbs.com/index.php?act=module&module=gallery&cmd=si&img=56612|like this one], you can see that the screen says "-RESULTS NEGATIVE-" If he was testing the DNA against their military records, it should say "-RESULTS POSITIVE-" If it's negative, the DNA doesn't match. That, or it's supposed to be a Cylon Detector, and it's saying that he's not a Cylon. It seems like it could be a simple goof between dialogue and props.

However, going along with the DNA reasoning... that doesn't necessarily prove anything, does it? If they tested Boomer's DNA against the DNA they have on record for her, I assume it's going to match, since they probably took Cylon DNA initially. Who's to say that the same thing didn't happen to Bulldog? In that case, his DNA would match, but he'd be a Cylon. Seems like a poor determiner of race, that's all. I don't think that he's necessarily a Cylon, just that this is another "oops."

--It might prove something...if the Colonials have DNA records going all the way back to a person's birth. If they're matching against that kind of original record (heck, maybe they even have the parents' records, too), then that may well constitute proof. [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:06, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Moved content ==

Folks, stuff like this needs to be removed (or reworded) on sight. Right now, this document reads a bit like it's arguing with itself. Before adding content that seems to contradict itself, please discuss it on the talk page -- that's what this feature is for.

Below, here's what I've removed thus far from the article that contradicts itself. Stuff like this, ''again'', must be hashed out on talk pages before entering the main article space. Thank you. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:52, 20 November 2006 (CST)

=== Removed content ===

*[[Dualla]] apparently served on the Valkyrie; she can be seen in the background standing behind Adama and Tigh in the flashback scenes.
**That person in the scene is most likley not Dualla; it's not easy to see because the flashback-scenes in the CIC have (deliberatly) not the best quality.

== Adama's Dossier ==
I feel that the dossier info should be moved to its own article. It really isn't a "standard" part of an episode article. Or if there is enough room for it in [[William Adama]], maybe move it to that article. A lot of room dedicated to what is pretty much a sidenote for the events that occur in the episode itself. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 13:17, 24 November 2006 (CST)
: I agree. The best place for it is in the [[William Adama]] article, in my view. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:03, 24 November 2006 (CST)

== Bullsh*t ==
In the iTunes download, Adama said "bullshit attitude" to Bulldog. In the SciFi version, it was bleeped out, was it not?
:What time count? I'll check --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 13:28, 24 November 2006 (CST)
::It was definately bleeped out in the SciFi broadcast. I noticed it while watching it last week. It's when Adama is talking with Bulldog shortly after he is rescued from the Cylons. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 13:59, 24 November 2006 (CST)
:::It survived the Canadian broadcast on SPACE. I remember I smiled when I heard it and thought "how the hell did they get away with that in the states?" For some reason anything short of fuck coasts by unedited on Canadian basic cable. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 19:52, 24 November 2006 (CST)
:::: I'm Canadian and I should probably know more about this, but a friend who worked in broadcasting for many years told me it was because the CRTC goes by a complaint system for censoring profanity, whereas the FCC actively polices the American airwaves. One Vancouver TV station aired the South Park movie uncut and unbleeped last Canada Day (at around 3 in the morning).
:Yeah, the bullshit was bleeped out. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:54, 24 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Heavy Raider/Archive 1

2006-11-22T12:01:32Z

Steve:

Please note that the Cylon craft seen landed on Kobol during [[Fragged]] is likely not a Heavy Raider, but rather a yet [[Unidentified Cylon Craft]]. Please see that other page for reasons why this is likely the case.

In other pages some people even theorized that it was the Raptor the Centurions were dismantling for parts, but I consider this to be far less likely.
--[[User:Laven|Laven]] 20:15, 4 Aug 2005 (EDT)

This is a really bad pic. I cannot load my own, but I'd rather have none. The current pic doesn't really show the shape of the Heavy Raider. All over bad angle. ---Ricimer, 28 Sept, 2005.

:It was the best pic of a Heavy Raider I could find, Its better get a picture of what it looks like than having none. I have another that shows part of the top view of the raider, but does not show the front. It alteasts shows the cockpit and the 6 mounted guns. If you find a better picture, please replace it at once. ---Blacklight 27 September (PST)

::Don't link to offsite images. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

:::We should post either of those two as a picture rather than just a link. The Ship on Kobol IS indeed the heavy raider, it is similar in every single aspect, from size, to design, trust me. It is also that ship that they were cannibalizing, the Cylons were cannibalizing the 2 front spokes, they were taken out. So We know the Heavy Raider has a Dradis Dish, a missile launcher, and is the typical Cylon Transport, at least for Centurions. I', quite convinced it is actually the same ship we see throughout season 1. Though they may be slightly different, someone may want to compare by checking Kobol's Last Gleaming Part 2, inside the hangar we get a wide shot before it zooms to Boomer landing the raptor, there are raiders and heavy raiders in the hangars around, so I think its the same ship, I suggest a merging of the articles, until further notice.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:15, 23 December 2005 (GMT)

::::I agree. There doesn't appear to be much room for controversy on this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:20, 23 December 2005 (EST)

==Imageshack image==
Ive noticed this on several pages but changed it here first because id like to know the stance from the admins on this. I just uploaded the images linked to from imageshack to this site but im not sure if i linked them right. I didnt know the code to properly link to an image file other thahn the way ive done it now. Some input by someone who knows what they are doung would be great.
Here is a list of other pages i found with imageshack hosted pictures
* [[Basestar (RDM)]]
[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 15:20, 23 March 2006 (CST)

:The links work. Did you mean for them to be inlined? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:37, 23 March 2006 (CST)
:: I wasnt sure if there was a special way of linking to images inline thats all. At the moment its set up as an external link that just to happens to be on this server [[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 15:41, 23 March 2006 (CST)

Removed images as I have utilised the "gallery" feature --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 08:31, 19 May 2006 (CDT)

== Earlier Heavy Raider sighting ==

1.) There is a Heavy Raider in season 1 even before "Colonial Day". In "Tigh me up, Tigh me down" where Helo and Sharon are in the sewers and the Cylons search for them. One can be seen in the background with the Cylons above them when Sharon takes a look. Timeindex ~31:10 
2.) Also, we know that they can be used as troop transport from "Scattered" and "Valley of Darkness". "The Farm" isn't really necessary to proove that though we see the cargo hold --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:01, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
*Indeed, the first time we saw it was when Sharon opens the lid of the sewer and we see one of them shining a ligt, as well as an other flying in the background.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:13, 19 September 2006 (CDT)

== Heavy Raider's Autonomy ==
According to this article the Heavy Raider requires a pilot. I don't have the episodes on hand to check, but has any character been seen actually operating the controls on this ship? Although none of the pictures in the article show it clearly, the Heavy Raider does have a Cylon "head" in the manner of regular Raiders and Centurions, although it is offset to the right rather than front-and-centre. There are some pictures that show the Cylon head on the Heavy Raider here: http://galacticastation.com/Screencaps/S2/205/bscap0297.htm and here: http://galacticastation.com/Screencaps/S2/205/bscap0298.htm. The Heavy Raider is also known to be partially organic, like the smaller Raiders (i.e. the nav computer from "Lay Down Your Burdens"). So the Heavy Raider might potentially have the same autonomy as a Raider or a Centurion, but with the added capacity to transport and receive mission-oriented commands from Cylon agents (or sneaky Colonials) on board.--[[User:Steve|Steve]] 06:00, 22 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Heavy Raider/Archive 1

2006-11-22T12:00:50Z

Steve: Heavy Raiders have Cylon heads

Please note that the Cylon craft seen landed on Kobol during [[Fragged]] is likely not a Heavy Raider, but rather a yet [[Unidentified Cylon Craft]]. Please see that other page for reasons why this is likely the case.

In other pages some people even theorized that it was the Raptor the Centurions were dismantling for parts, but I consider this to be far less likely.
--[[User:Laven|Laven]] 20:15, 4 Aug 2005 (EDT)

This is a really bad pic. I cannot load my own, but I'd rather have none. The current pic doesn't really show the shape of the Heavy Raider. All over bad angle. ---Ricimer, 28 Sept, 2005.

:It was the best pic of a Heavy Raider I could find, Its better get a picture of what it looks like than having none. I have another that shows part of the top view of the raider, but does not show the front. It alteasts shows the cockpit and the 6 mounted guns. If you find a better picture, please replace it at once. ---Blacklight 27 September (PST)

::Don't link to offsite images. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

:::We should post either of those two as a picture rather than just a link. The Ship on Kobol IS indeed the heavy raider, it is similar in every single aspect, from size, to design, trust me. It is also that ship that they were cannibalizing, the Cylons were cannibalizing the 2 front spokes, they were taken out. So We know the Heavy Raider has a Dradis Dish, a missile launcher, and is the typical Cylon Transport, at least for Centurions. I', quite convinced it is actually the same ship we see throughout season 1. Though they may be slightly different, someone may want to compare by checking Kobol's Last Gleaming Part 2, inside the hangar we get a wide shot before it zooms to Boomer landing the raptor, there are raiders and heavy raiders in the hangars around, so I think its the same ship, I suggest a merging of the articles, until further notice.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:15, 23 December 2005 (GMT)

::::I agree. There doesn't appear to be much room for controversy on this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:20, 23 December 2005 (EST)

==Imageshack image==
Ive noticed this on several pages but changed it here first because id like to know the stance from the admins on this. I just uploaded the images linked to from imageshack to this site but im not sure if i linked them right. I didnt know the code to properly link to an image file other thahn the way ive done it now. Some input by someone who knows what they are doung would be great.
Here is a list of other pages i found with imageshack hosted pictures
* [[Basestar (RDM)]]
[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 15:20, 23 March 2006 (CST)

:The links work. Did you mean for them to be inlined? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:37, 23 March 2006 (CST)
:: I wasnt sure if there was a special way of linking to images inline thats all. At the moment its set up as an external link that just to happens to be on this server [[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 15:41, 23 March 2006 (CST)

Removed images as I have utilised the "gallery" feature --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 08:31, 19 May 2006 (CDT)

== Earlier Heavy Raider sighting ==

1.) There is a Heavy Raider in season 1 even before "Colonial Day". In "Tigh me up, Tigh me down" where Helo and Sharon are in the sewers and the Cylons search for them. One can be seen in the background with the Cylons above them when Sharon takes a look. Timeindex ~31:10 
2.) Also, we know that they can be used as troop transport from "Scattered" and "Valley of Darkness". "The Farm" isn't really necessary to proove that though we see the cargo hold --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:01, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
*Indeed, the first time we saw it was when Sharon opens the lid of the sewer and we see one of them shining a ligt, as well as an other flying in the background.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:13, 19 September 2006 (CDT)

==
According to this article the Heavy Raider requires a pilot. I don't have the episodes on hand to check, but has any character been seen actually operating the controls on this ship? Although none of the pictures in the article show it clearly, the Heavy Raider does have a Cylon "head" in the manner of regular Raiders and Centurions, although it is offset to the right rather than front-and-centre. There are some pictures that show the Cylon head on the Heavy Raider here: http://galacticastation.com/Screencaps/S2/205/bscap0297.htm and here: http://galacticastation.com/Screencaps/S2/205/bscap0298.htm. The Heavy Raider is also known to be partially organic, like the smaller Raiders (i.e. the nav computer from "Lay Down Your Burdens"). So the Heavy Raider might potentially have the same autonomy as a Raider or a Centurion, but with the added capacity to transport and receive mission-oriented commands from Cylon agents (or sneaky Colonials) on board.--[[User:Steve|Steve]] 06:00, 22 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Hero/Archive2

2006-11-21T08:53:24Z

Steve: /* Folks in White Robes */

== Can We compare Adama to President George....Washington? :) ==
I was reading the quote from Eick, "...Adama begins to believe that on some level he might have been responsible for provoking the Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies." and for some reason I felt that thie reminded me of Gorge Washington long before we was president or even commander-in-chief when, before the 7-Years-War, Washington was involved in a skirmish with the French over Fort Necessity, aka Pittsburgh (yes, we fought a battle for that city) that led to Washington signing a treaty stating, unbeknownst to him because he couldn't speak French and his interpreter sucked, that he committed attrocities against France in the name of the British Empire. This, according to many historians, led to the 7 Years War, known in America as the French and Indian War, that would decimate Northern Germany. I'm sure Washington at some level had to be aware of this error on his part and led him to remorse I imagine. Anyways, the story is different but I was wondering how many parallels there will be, if there will be, in this episode to Washington's conundrum. I wanted to ask a question on the article page but couldn't concise it enough for wiki standards. I may ask on the scifi bboard but input on this would be appreciated before I do. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 19:42, 3 August 2006 (PST)
:That's an interesting analogy, showing a fine attention to historical detail. I think the parallel has minor flaws, though, since Washington's conduct in that matter isn't generally considered morally wrong so much as foolish. [[Wikipedia:Gavrilo Princip|Gavrilo Princip]] might be worth considering as a parallel; he was the immediate but not ultimate cause of a devastating war, and he precipitated the conflict by attacking his fellow countryman, thinking it justified in contrast to the general consensus. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 02:28, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

:: It's unlikely that Adama's actions are quite the transgression that he believes it to be; after all, the [[cylon agent|Cylons had been violating the armistice line]] for about a half a year prior to Adama's, anyway.[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 02:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)

::: I was wondering about the timeline as well. I think Adama says somthing like, the mission was a year before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|attack]], but the cylons had been planning the attack for two years. However, I think there is an error in the timeline. Adama also says he served with Boomer for two years, and I think he implied that it was on Galactica. Gaeta also says that he served with Adama for three years. It is possible that Gaeta was on the Valkyrie for a year, but I think the mission happened about two years before the attack, not just one. I will rewatch the episode, but do you have any ideas? [[User:Jrmurph|Jrmurph]] 12:21, 18 November 2006 (EST)
:::: I think there is an inconsistency in the story. It is not unexplainable, ie Gaeta and Boomer served with Adama on the Valkyrie, but it did seem like nobody other than Adama or Tigh recognized Bulldog so the timeline is a little esquew. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:01, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Another Battlestar? ==
There is a spoiler image showing Adm Adama and Col Tigh in the CIC of the Battlestar Valkerie. I zoomed in on Adama and saw he had his Admiral's pins on. Might this be a sign that they soon will find yet another Battlestar? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:24, 15 November 2006 (CST)
: It's a flashback scene. It may be more of a costuming error. Note that Tigh still has his eye in that promo shot. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 01:39, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:: Right. Two eyed Tigh. Darn. I was hoping they'd find another Battlestar cause I do miss the Pegasus. It was bigger, much cooler and the doors made this cool "beep" when they opened. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:50, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:::You can visit [[Valkyrie]] as well. It's a spoiler until Friday but you can adjust it with some new data later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:36, 15 November 2006 (CST)
::::It's true, I saw the Admiral pips as well, the flashback should have been Commander pips; as the Stealth ship incident occurred three years ago. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 22:56, 17 November 2006 (CST)
: The Valkerie looked to be a Mercury class Battlestar. This would make sense because the galactica class was an older ship and has been all but replaced with the newer bigger and more efficent Mercury class.--[[User:Mike|Mike]] 09:30, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It's definately not a Mercury, the only part really similar is the engine block. If anything, it looked most like a reimagining of the original series battlestar, down to the rectangular opening in the flightpod and the angular head. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::Inside it looks like a Mercury yes. That's a sign of its age. But outside, it's far smaller than a full-sized battlestar. Look at the gun battery on the top. There's only one and almost covers the width of the ship there. See the Valkyrie page for more details (where this discussion should take place), but I think it's basically a smaller battlestar meant for support duties. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:52, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:: Not disagreeing with your main point, but its quite possible that there were far more Battlestar classes than just the "Cylon War Type" and the Mecurcy class, given that the colonies built up a fleet of arround 120 Battlestars over about 50 years, particularly as the Viper apparently went through 5 different itterations over this time, although we are likely never going to see the intervening versions of either type --[[User:Useless|Useless]] 09:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Barry Kennedy as Admiral Corman ==

Hey all, I was just checking on Barry Kennedy's link, and it links to an IMDB page other than his profile page detailing his filmography, and etc. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 23:52, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:That's because some people keep forgeting the "nm" when entering imdb numbers and in that case the link default to title instead of actor --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:53, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The Stealth-Star==
hey i just noticed this but the name of the ship was the stealth star so someone(not me)should create it a page. Best Snorkel378
:Already done [[Stealth Star]]. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:41, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The scene with Baltar, Six and Three in bed==
it says on there that 3 is having a sexual realationship with baltar and six?
Cylons arent lesbos i think they were having a 3some {{unsigned|Snorkel378}}
:You are assuming that the Six we see is Caprica-Six and not Baltar's internal Six. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 20:49, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It would be an odd choice cinematically to have Three wake up from a dream and show us something from inside Baltar's head. {{unsigned|Wldkt1}}
:::Please remembe rto sign your posts on talk pages guys <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:05, 19 November 2006 (CST)
The fact that Baltar and Six are in a 'clutch' position makes it unlikely that it's his internal Six. Three would have noticed Baltar trying to hug thin air in his sleep. Baltar is also in the center of the bed, rather than on one side. In addition, Caprica seems to be aware of (and approves) Three's new interest in Baltar. Regarding the possibility of a relationship between Three and Six: that is only speculation, but just because we haven't seen a lesbian relationship between cylons doesn't mean one isn't possible.[[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 22:18, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:It could be that Caprica-Six sees this as a way to weaken Baltar--after all, the formula for getting Baltar to give up secrets seems pretty clear: get in his bed, get in his head, so to speak. Remember that during the torture in previous episodes, he said to Three, "I love you with all of my heart." That's what started the relationship, so I think Three is interested in Baltar for whatever reason, not necessarily Six. Plus, on a more humorous note...I have to wonder if the Cylons have any sexual relations amongst themselves at all. This could be one deprived Cylon... [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:24, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==The Black Ops Mission==
Does anyone think that the entire mission was poorly concieved? First, the Colonials jump a Battlestar to very close range of the armistice line, which one would expect to attract attention in and of itself. Second, we see the ''Valkyrie'' track the S-Star after launch and over the line. This either means the Valkyrie tracked it directly on DRADIS, which indicates it's not much of a stealth ship and that the Cylons should be able to detect it as well, or the S-Star has some sort of transponder reporting its position, which is also something the Cylons should detect. Finally, as referenced in the main article, the S-Star maintains radio contact with the ''Valkyrie'' throughout the whole mission, again something the Cylons should be able to detect. Would the writers have really overlooked all this, or are we meant to conclude that the Admriality meant for the mission to have been discovered by the Cylons? --[[User:Cleophus|Cleophus]] 22:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:-The mission is quite similar to the United States' U2 overflights during the late 1950's and 60's. Certain similarities between the depicted incident and the [[:wikipedia:U-2 Crisis of 1960|incident involving Francis Gary Powers]] can be read. It also conjures up several dozen observation flights by aircraft such as specially outfitted C-130's flying perilously close to a boundary line — even going so far as to slip a wingtip across it to "call a bluff". Also, there's the incident involving the Chinese Gai-8 fighter and the US P-3 Orion.
:In the case of our Colonials here, the stealth craft is more than likely equipped with an "odd frequency" (either very low or very high), encrypted transponder that transmits on a specific wavelength, only for IFF purposes. If I recall correctly, F-117 Nighthawks can still use their radios when on ops (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I suspect that this mission was proposed in order to get a glimpse into ''any'' Cylon activity. The stealth craft would be dangled out as a tiny bit of bait – just enough to get a response. Its stealth characteristics would increase its ability to dash back across the Armistice Line untracked and unaffected, and then ''Valkyrie'' would be able to observe and record the arriving Cylons. If questions were raised ("What are you doing here?" ... "Good question, what are ''you'' doing here?" ... "We detected you over the Armistice Line." ... "Who, us? Noooo... We've been on our side this whole time, just trolling about, watching over our miners over there on that moon there. So why are you here again? You don't mind if we take some photos of you while you're here, do you?"), the Colonials would feign ignorance and innocence, but they'd at least have a response... something that the Cylons haven't even projected in thirty-plus years. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:--Is it possible that the Stealth Star was shot down by a Colonial Force in hopes that it would percipitate a conflict? Similar to the Gulf of Tonkin? This way the Colonials can say one of their ships got lost and was destroyed by the Cylons in cold blood (Or something along those lines). Also, it makes no sense a ship would jump in, shoot the S-Star, and jump out. Why wouldnt it commit to killin the S-Star? --[[User:Skrip00|Skrip00]] 16:31, 20 November 2006 (CST)

:: Perhaps. We don't know either way. To be honest, after some seriously critical thought about it on my part, there's really not much of it that makes sense, since it was poorly explained in the episode. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:55, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==Folks in White Robes==
Aren't there five white-robed figures in Number Three's vision? It's pretty speculative, but maybe these are meant to represent the five missing Cylon models (maybe they've undergone some kind of transcendence, and are "with God now" or something). Maybe the article should note this (after all, the white-robes show up for the first time just a couple episodes after we first learn that there's definitely something different or mysterious about the five missing models), though I don't know the proper section for it. {{unsigned|Steve}}

:- I noticed that too, but was going to "acquire" the episode and re-watch that part, or watch it again on Monday to see... I _think_ there are five humanoid figures in white robes, kneeling or seated in that semi-circle when Three walks amongst them. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:Three's in the opera house on Kobol where Baltar's internal Six shows him Hera's cradle; I believe those are the same white drapes that can be seen on the opera house stage in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 11:38, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::Well I agree she's in the opera house from KLG, but I don't think I'm referring to the drapes. In the initial shot of the opera house, there seem to be five glowing figures standing between the six white drapes. Some of the quick shots of the opera house that follow show these figures, and some do not (as though they are alternately hiding and revealing themselves). At the end of her experience, Three approaches and reaches out to one of these figures just before she is resurrected. --[[User:Steve|Steve]] 02:50, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Reference to Raising Arizona? ==

I'm new here, so I didn't want to jump right into the thick of things by adding this to the main page before running it by other people...when Adama and Novacek are sitting down for the first time, Adama asks him something like "How did you escape, Bulldog?". Novacek rambles for a little bit (again, I don't remember exact words) but wraps up with "I felt the facility no longer had anything to offer me...". If I'm not mistaken, this is a reference to Raising Arizona--John Goodman's character says just about the exact same thing after he breaks out of prison. I can't seem to find the line on IMDB or Wikiquote, though... {{unsigned|MikeDanger}}
:Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:As far as I remember "Raising Arizona", the dialogue goes like this: 
:''- You busted outta jail?'' 
:''- No, ma'am. We released ourselves on our own recognizance.'' 
:''- What Evelle is tryin' to say is we felt the institution no longer had anything to offer us.'' -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 08:28, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Insight into Cylon plan ==
If the Cylons know where the Colonials are, or at least know well enough to send Bulldog at them, it's common sense to ask, why don't they just attack? Well, maybe their goal isn't to destroy Galactica et al outright but something more complex. One thing that does seem consistent with their plan is their desire to kill Adama, perhaps because they want to send the fleet into disarray without him at the top. Examples: Leoben telling Roslin that Adama's a Cylon in Flesh and Blood, Boomer shooting Adama repeatedly in Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. II. There may be more examples that I can't think of right now.

People have been crying out "plot hole!" with reckless abandon in light of Bulldog's ability to pinpoint Galactica's position, but if the Cylon plan really is as simple as ''kill all humans,'' as these detractors might claim, then much of the show falls apart. The reality is, we don't really know the Cylon plan, and at this point, there's really no reason to jump to the conclusion that the writers are just too lazy to think of one. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 18:22, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:The Cylons might know full well where the Colonials are but if they jumped in a couple of Basestars then the fleet would zip out of there pretty sharpish and might go somewhere where the Cylons dont know and they will have to find them all over again. IMO, their plan is a long game. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 19:17, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:IMHO, "Hero" is the weakest episode of the series yet. There's just too many logic errors for me to dismiss as part of the "suspension of disbelief" process. For instance, how does Bulldog have the time to learn how to pilot a Cylon raider, when Starbuck took hours to figure out how to operate the thing? Also, how would Bulldog be able to operate the FTL drive -- Kobol's Last Gleaming pretty much made it clear that the FTL drive needed an actual computer, given that the brain had to be ripped out in order for it to be piloted manually. But that's another not so fine mess.
: As for the Cylon plans, well, they're clearly compliated and seem to be changing since the attack. Whether or not this is by design has yet to be detrmined, though I sincerely doubt that the writer's have this thing all planned out a la ''Babylon 5''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:30, 19 November 2006 (CST)

::Yeah, I know what you're saying. I also doubt it's all planned out B5-style (hasn't Ron basically said something to that effect anyway, like how much they enjoy making it up as they go along?), but that doesn't mean it necessarily can't all add up in the end, and we should assume that they ''do'' know what they are doing until they are proven wrong.

::Also, a lot of people have been talking about how unrealistic it is for Bulldog to have learned how to operate the raider in such a short time. I'm not trying to start an arguement about this, but I don't actually remember them saying that he had only a short time to learn how to use the raider. Are you guys just assuming that he had to learn it all quickly based on the rushed nature of his escape? Is there a reason he couldn't have actually had a few hours to do it? I mean, if they let him escape, then he could have been in the basestar hangar for hours trying to work the controls while they watched (and snickered) from behind the glass. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 23:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:I agree that a lot of people have seemed predisposed to cry foul lately--I can understand how the scientific goofs in "A Measure of Salvation" could've set people on edge--but I do think it's possible that if the Cylons are operating under a religious motivation, that their plan does go beyond a simple "kill all humans" approach. They may see the need to exact specific steps of revenge/torture against humanity, perhaps a particular punishment for each perceived offense. That's just one possibility, but it could well be they have the death of a thousand cuts in mind for the remnants of humanity. I think Drumstick's probably on to something here. Or you know, if they wanted Bulldog to escape, they could have trained a Raider (which wasn't injured like Starbuck's) to understand and obey his commands or even set it up with an interface that a human could use. Until we see proof or disproof of all the different theories, I think it's too early to try to claim BsG has jumped the shark or anything similar. I also have to wonder if anybody here has writing experience with writing a full-length work. I am working on my first novel, and keeping total, perfect consistency is not easy and while I tend to get the big things right, I am still finding a lot of subtle things that need tweaking, and this despite my best efforts. [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:17, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Possible Discontinuity ==
According to the episode, Adama and friends served on the Valkyrie a year before the attacks. This implies that Adama was only commander of the Galactica for a year before the miniseries. Yet on the Kara Thrace article, it states that Thrace "resigned from flight school as a instructor and transferred as an operational pilot aboard battlestar Galactica under the command of William Adama, where she served for some '''two years prior to the Cylon attack''' on the Twelve Colonies." They can't both be right.

Also, from the Tyrol article: "He served aboard battlestars from the age of eighteen, including Columbia, Atlantia, and Pegasus (Resistance). He has served under William Adama on Galactica for five years (Litmus)." If he served under Adama for 5 years, why didn't he mention the Valkyrie when he was being intimidated by Tigh in Resistance? This could be simply because Tigh would have known that.--[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 22:16, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:No, your first impulse is correct - it's quite certainly an error.
:'''Gaeta:''' And... may I take this opportunity to say that it's been both a pleasure and an honour to serve under you [Adama], these past three years. ([[Miniseries]])
:'''Adama:''' We [Thrace and I] talked about a lot of things. We've been aboard this ship for over two years, we know each other very well. ([[Act of Contrition]])
:'''Adama:''' She [Valerii] was more than that to us. She was more than that to me. She was a vital, living person... aboard my ship for almost two years. She couldn’t have been just a machine. Could you love a machine? ([[The Farm]])
:Also, note that the timeline in Adama's dossier (which seems to be accurate based on other data points) puts his transfer to ''Galactica'' at six years prior to the miniseries.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:48, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::It is quite possible that this is not an error ''per se''. Adama and some of his command staff could easily have been assigned to the more modern Valkyrie from Galactica for the mission. It wouldn't make much sense to send "the bucket" on a stealth mission anyway. Notice Valkyrie seemed smaller and was probably more modernized, which would make it all the better for that type of mission. So Adama could easily have been in command of Galactica for several years prior, been offered command of Valkyrie as a reward, for career advancement or just for the mission... and have been pushed back to Galactica when the mission failed. Certainly the plan to decommission Galactica was in the works for some time, and they would not want one of their good commanders to retire with the ship... until after the mission where he failed. None of the characters would be expected to say "I served under Adama for some years, and some other guy for a couple of months, then Adama again." They would just say they served with him for X number of years. If we compare to the modern US Navy, this sort of thing is not all the uncommon.--[[User:Xealot|Xealot]] 10:22, 20 November 2006 (CST)
:::The dossier's progression from XO of ''Columbia'' to Commander of ''Valkyrie'' to Commander of ''Galactica'' seems to indicate that ''Valkyrie'' was his first battlestar command. Though I agree that the serve under "X years" would fly if they stayed under him. It's just the "this ship"'s that start biting them. (When they specify the ship instead of the command.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:53, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::It's really embarassing in continuity. If they had put the entire affair a few years further into the past, it would have made much more sense not only in Adamas biography, but also in the overall plot. Boomer served on ''Galactica'' for two years and probably spend some additional time at flight school, so Adama must know the Cylon infiltration started long before the Stealth-Star incident. This should really get Adama to ask himself how long the attack had been planned, though he might convince himself that the Cylons put their infiltrators in place just as a precaution and his actions led to their decision to actually use them. A few years more time between the attack and the incident would put the estimated start of Cylon infiltration (which actually could be anywhere between 2 and 20 years before the attack) around the same time, giving Adama a far more powerful reason to believe that he started it right there. I would like to think that putting the incident one year before attack was just an accident, but then it would probably become even more difficult to explain how Bulldog survived that long.

::Another point that's problematic: did ''Valkyrie'' have an integrated computer-network? Up to this episode all information we had suggested that all battlestars save ''Galactica'' had them and that it was Adamas position of ''no network on my ship'' that prevented an upgrade.

::*If ''Valkyrie'' had a network Adamas politics of ''it's all hand on here'' are somewhat harder to believe. Up to now it looked like the position of a war-veteran who opposed networks on principle, this is harder to believe if he already commanded a ship with such a network.

::*If there was no network on ''Valkyrie'', then why wasn't there one? It appears extremely unlikely that the networks were all installed in the time between the incident and the attack, though the decision cannot have been made to long before Adama took command of ''Galactica'', because the previous commander would probably have had it installed. And given that it must have been a major decision to put networks on battlestars once more it's hard to believe that the Admirality would allow commanders to pull the plug on it as they see fit. I can imagine Adamas opposition being tolerated on ''Galactica'', because it was an old battlestar nearing it's decommissioning with a design that may have been especially hard to upgrade (regardless of Gaetas patchwork in [[Scattered]]). They could have simply decided that it was not worth the effort to force Adama to accept the upgrade. But that would be hard to believe for ''Valkyrie'', if you are sending a battlestar on such a sensitive mission you want it at maximum performance. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:49, 20 November 2006 (CST)

:::The network thing isn't hugely problematic. We have no notion of how old ''Valkyrie'' was. ''Atlantia'' was at least 17 years old at the time of the attack (based on Adama's dossier), and was still worthy to serve as Nagala's flagship in the Miniseries. ''Galactica'' was even older. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Cylon detector problems ==

There's some inconsistency with the "Cylon Detector" that Doc Cottle used to determine that Bulldog was a human. First of all, if you look at the screen caps, [http://galacticabbs.com/index.php?act=module&module=gallery&cmd=si&img=56612|like this one], you can see that the screen says "-RESULTS NEGATIVE-" If he was testing the DNA against their military records, it should say "-RESULTS POSITIVE-" If it's negative, the DNA doesn't match. That, or it's supposed to be a Cylon Detector, and it's saying that he's not a Cylon. It seems like it could be a simple goof between dialogue and props.

However, going along with the DNA reasoning... that doesn't necessarily prove anything, does it? If they tested Boomer's DNA against the DNA they have on record for her, I assume it's going to match, since they probably took Cylon DNA initially. Who's to say that the same thing didn't happen to Bulldog? In that case, his DNA would match, but he'd be a Cylon. Seems like a poor determiner of race, that's all. I don't think that he's necessarily a Cylon, just that this is another "oops."

--It might prove something...if the Colonials have DNA records going all the way back to a person's birth. If they're matching against that kind of original record (heck, maybe they even have the parents' records, too), then that may well constitute proof. [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:06, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Moved content ==

Folks, stuff like this needs to be removed (or reworded) on sight. Right now, this document reads a bit like it's arguing with itself. Before adding content that seems to contradict itself, please discuss it on the talk page -- that's what this feature is for.

Below, here's what I've removed thus far from the article that contradicts itself. Stuff like this, ''again'', must be hashed out on talk pages before entering the main article space. Thank you. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:52, 20 November 2006 (CST)

=== Removed content ===

*[[Dualla]] apparently served on the Valkyrie; she can be seen in the background standing behind Adama and Tigh in the flashback scenes.
**That person in the scene is most likley not Dualla; it's not easy to see because the flashback-scenes in the CIC have (deliberatly) not the best quality.

Talk:Hero/Archive2

2006-11-21T08:52:52Z

Steve: /* Folks in White Robes */

== Can We compare Adama to President George....Washington? :) ==
I was reading the quote from Eick, "...Adama begins to believe that on some level he might have been responsible for provoking the Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies." and for some reason I felt that thie reminded me of Gorge Washington long before we was president or even commander-in-chief when, before the 7-Years-War, Washington was involved in a skirmish with the French over Fort Necessity, aka Pittsburgh (yes, we fought a battle for that city) that led to Washington signing a treaty stating, unbeknownst to him because he couldn't speak French and his interpreter sucked, that he committed attrocities against France in the name of the British Empire. This, according to many historians, led to the 7 Years War, known in America as the French and Indian War, that would decimate Northern Germany. I'm sure Washington at some level had to be aware of this error on his part and led him to remorse I imagine. Anyways, the story is different but I was wondering how many parallels there will be, if there will be, in this episode to Washington's conundrum. I wanted to ask a question on the article page but couldn't concise it enough for wiki standards. I may ask on the scifi bboard but input on this would be appreciated before I do. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 19:42, 3 August 2006 (PST)
:That's an interesting analogy, showing a fine attention to historical detail. I think the parallel has minor flaws, though, since Washington's conduct in that matter isn't generally considered morally wrong so much as foolish. [[Wikipedia:Gavrilo Princip|Gavrilo Princip]] might be worth considering as a parallel; he was the immediate but not ultimate cause of a devastating war, and he precipitated the conflict by attacking his fellow countryman, thinking it justified in contrast to the general consensus. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 02:28, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

:: It's unlikely that Adama's actions are quite the transgression that he believes it to be; after all, the [[cylon agent|Cylons had been violating the armistice line]] for about a half a year prior to Adama's, anyway.[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 02:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)

::: I was wondering about the timeline as well. I think Adama says somthing like, the mission was a year before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|attack]], but the cylons had been planning the attack for two years. However, I think there is an error in the timeline. Adama also says he served with Boomer for two years, and I think he implied that it was on Galactica. Gaeta also says that he served with Adama for three years. It is possible that Gaeta was on the Valkyrie for a year, but I think the mission happened about two years before the attack, not just one. I will rewatch the episode, but do you have any ideas? [[User:Jrmurph|Jrmurph]] 12:21, 18 November 2006 (EST)
:::: I think there is an inconsistency in the story. It is not unexplainable, ie Gaeta and Boomer served with Adama on the Valkyrie, but it did seem like nobody other than Adama or Tigh recognized Bulldog so the timeline is a little esquew. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:01, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Another Battlestar? ==
There is a spoiler image showing Adm Adama and Col Tigh in the CIC of the Battlestar Valkerie. I zoomed in on Adama and saw he had his Admiral's pins on. Might this be a sign that they soon will find yet another Battlestar? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:24, 15 November 2006 (CST)
: It's a flashback scene. It may be more of a costuming error. Note that Tigh still has his eye in that promo shot. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 01:39, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:: Right. Two eyed Tigh. Darn. I was hoping they'd find another Battlestar cause I do miss the Pegasus. It was bigger, much cooler and the doors made this cool "beep" when they opened. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:50, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:::You can visit [[Valkyrie]] as well. It's a spoiler until Friday but you can adjust it with some new data later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:36, 15 November 2006 (CST)
::::It's true, I saw the Admiral pips as well, the flashback should have been Commander pips; as the Stealth ship incident occurred three years ago. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 22:56, 17 November 2006 (CST)
: The Valkerie looked to be a Mercury class Battlestar. This would make sense because the galactica class was an older ship and has been all but replaced with the newer bigger and more efficent Mercury class.--[[User:Mike|Mike]] 09:30, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It's definately not a Mercury, the only part really similar is the engine block. If anything, it looked most like a reimagining of the original series battlestar, down to the rectangular opening in the flightpod and the angular head. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::Inside it looks like a Mercury yes. That's a sign of its age. But outside, it's far smaller than a full-sized battlestar. Look at the gun battery on the top. There's only one and almost covers the width of the ship there. See the Valkyrie page for more details (where this discussion should take place), but I think it's basically a smaller battlestar meant for support duties. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:52, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:: Not disagreeing with your main point, but its quite possible that there were far more Battlestar classes than just the "Cylon War Type" and the Mecurcy class, given that the colonies built up a fleet of arround 120 Battlestars over about 50 years, particularly as the Viper apparently went through 5 different itterations over this time, although we are likely never going to see the intervening versions of either type --[[User:Useless|Useless]] 09:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Barry Kennedy as Admiral Corman ==

Hey all, I was just checking on Barry Kennedy's link, and it links to an IMDB page other than his profile page detailing his filmography, and etc. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 23:52, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:That's because some people keep forgeting the "nm" when entering imdb numbers and in that case the link default to title instead of actor --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:53, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The Stealth-Star==
hey i just noticed this but the name of the ship was the stealth star so someone(not me)should create it a page. Best Snorkel378
:Already done [[Stealth Star]]. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:41, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The scene with Baltar, Six and Three in bed==
it says on there that 3 is having a sexual realationship with baltar and six?
Cylons arent lesbos i think they were having a 3some {{unsigned|Snorkel378}}
:You are assuming that the Six we see is Caprica-Six and not Baltar's internal Six. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 20:49, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It would be an odd choice cinematically to have Three wake up from a dream and show us something from inside Baltar's head. {{unsigned|Wldkt1}}
:::Please remembe rto sign your posts on talk pages guys <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:05, 19 November 2006 (CST)
The fact that Baltar and Six are in a 'clutch' position makes it unlikely that it's his internal Six. Three would have noticed Baltar trying to hug thin air in his sleep. Baltar is also in the center of the bed, rather than on one side. In addition, Caprica seems to be aware of (and approves) Three's new interest in Baltar. Regarding the possibility of a relationship between Three and Six: that is only speculation, but just because we haven't seen a lesbian relationship between cylons doesn't mean one isn't possible.[[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 22:18, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:It could be that Caprica-Six sees this as a way to weaken Baltar--after all, the formula for getting Baltar to give up secrets seems pretty clear: get in his bed, get in his head, so to speak. Remember that during the torture in previous episodes, he said to Three, "I love you with all of my heart." That's what started the relationship, so I think Three is interested in Baltar for whatever reason, not necessarily Six. Plus, on a more humorous note...I have to wonder if the Cylons have any sexual relations amongst themselves at all. This could be one deprived Cylon... [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:24, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==The Black Ops Mission==
Does anyone think that the entire mission was poorly concieved? First, the Colonials jump a Battlestar to very close range of the armistice line, which one would expect to attract attention in and of itself. Second, we see the ''Valkyrie'' track the S-Star after launch and over the line. This either means the Valkyrie tracked it directly on DRADIS, which indicates it's not much of a stealth ship and that the Cylons should be able to detect it as well, or the S-Star has some sort of transponder reporting its position, which is also something the Cylons should detect. Finally, as referenced in the main article, the S-Star maintains radio contact with the ''Valkyrie'' throughout the whole mission, again something the Cylons should be able to detect. Would the writers have really overlooked all this, or are we meant to conclude that the Admriality meant for the mission to have been discovered by the Cylons? --[[User:Cleophus|Cleophus]] 22:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:-The mission is quite similar to the United States' U2 overflights during the late 1950's and 60's. Certain similarities between the depicted incident and the [[:wikipedia:U-2 Crisis of 1960|incident involving Francis Gary Powers]] can be read. It also conjures up several dozen observation flights by aircraft such as specially outfitted C-130's flying perilously close to a boundary line — even going so far as to slip a wingtip across it to "call a bluff". Also, there's the incident involving the Chinese Gai-8 fighter and the US P-3 Orion.
:In the case of our Colonials here, the stealth craft is more than likely equipped with an "odd frequency" (either very low or very high), encrypted transponder that transmits on a specific wavelength, only for IFF purposes. If I recall correctly, F-117 Nighthawks can still use their radios when on ops (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I suspect that this mission was proposed in order to get a glimpse into ''any'' Cylon activity. The stealth craft would be dangled out as a tiny bit of bait – just enough to get a response. Its stealth characteristics would increase its ability to dash back across the Armistice Line untracked and unaffected, and then ''Valkyrie'' would be able to observe and record the arriving Cylons. If questions were raised ("What are you doing here?" ... "Good question, what are ''you'' doing here?" ... "We detected you over the Armistice Line." ... "Who, us? Noooo... We've been on our side this whole time, just trolling about, watching over our miners over there on that moon there. So why are you here again? You don't mind if we take some photos of you while you're here, do you?"), the Colonials would feign ignorance and innocence, but they'd at least have a response... something that the Cylons haven't even projected in thirty-plus years. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:--Is it possible that the Stealth Star was shot down by a Colonial Force in hopes that it would percipitate a conflict? Similar to the Gulf of Tonkin? This way the Colonials can say one of their ships got lost and was destroyed by the Cylons in cold blood (Or something along those lines). Also, it makes no sense a ship would jump in, shoot the S-Star, and jump out. Why wouldnt it commit to killin the S-Star? --[[User:Skrip00|Skrip00]] 16:31, 20 November 2006 (CST)

:: Perhaps. We don't know either way. To be honest, after some seriously critical thought about it on my part, there's really not much of it that makes sense, since it was poorly explained in the episode. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:55, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==Folks in White Robes==
Aren't there five white-robed figures in Number Three's vision? It's pretty speculative, but maybe these are meant to represent the five missing Cylon models (maybe they've undergone some kind of transcendence, and are "with God now" or something). Maybe the article should note this (after all, the white-robes show up for the first time just a couple episodes after we first learn that there's definitely something different or mysterious about the five missing models), though I don't know the proper section for it. {{unsigned|Steve}}

:- I noticed that too, but was going to "acquire" the episode and re-watch that part, or watch it again on Monday to see... I _think_ there are five humanoid figures in white robes, kneeling or seated in that semi-circle when Three walks amongst them. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:Three's in the opera house on Kobol where Baltar's internal Six shows him Hera's cradle; I believe those are the same white drapes that can be seen on the opera house stage in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 11:38, 20 November 2006 (CST)

:--Well I agree she's in the opera house from KLG, but I don't think I'm referring to the drapes. In the initial shot of the opera house, there seem to be five glowing figures standing between the six white drapes. Some of the quick shots of the opera house that follow show these figures, and some do not (as though they are alternately hiding and revealing themselves). At the end of her experience, Three approaches and reaches out to one of these figures just before she is resurrected. --[[User:Steve|Steve]] 02:50, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Reference to Raising Arizona? ==

I'm new here, so I didn't want to jump right into the thick of things by adding this to the main page before running it by other people...when Adama and Novacek are sitting down for the first time, Adama asks him something like "How did you escape, Bulldog?". Novacek rambles for a little bit (again, I don't remember exact words) but wraps up with "I felt the facility no longer had anything to offer me...". If I'm not mistaken, this is a reference to Raising Arizona--John Goodman's character says just about the exact same thing after he breaks out of prison. I can't seem to find the line on IMDB or Wikiquote, though... {{unsigned|MikeDanger}}
:Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:As far as I remember "Raising Arizona", the dialogue goes like this: 
:''- You busted outta jail?'' 
:''- No, ma'am. We released ourselves on our own recognizance.'' 
:''- What Evelle is tryin' to say is we felt the institution no longer had anything to offer us.'' -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 08:28, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Insight into Cylon plan ==
If the Cylons know where the Colonials are, or at least know well enough to send Bulldog at them, it's common sense to ask, why don't they just attack? Well, maybe their goal isn't to destroy Galactica et al outright but something more complex. One thing that does seem consistent with their plan is their desire to kill Adama, perhaps because they want to send the fleet into disarray without him at the top. Examples: Leoben telling Roslin that Adama's a Cylon in Flesh and Blood, Boomer shooting Adama repeatedly in Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. II. There may be more examples that I can't think of right now.

People have been crying out "plot hole!" with reckless abandon in light of Bulldog's ability to pinpoint Galactica's position, but if the Cylon plan really is as simple as ''kill all humans,'' as these detractors might claim, then much of the show falls apart. The reality is, we don't really know the Cylon plan, and at this point, there's really no reason to jump to the conclusion that the writers are just too lazy to think of one. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 18:22, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:The Cylons might know full well where the Colonials are but if they jumped in a couple of Basestars then the fleet would zip out of there pretty sharpish and might go somewhere where the Cylons dont know and they will have to find them all over again. IMO, their plan is a long game. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 19:17, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:IMHO, "Hero" is the weakest episode of the series yet. There's just too many logic errors for me to dismiss as part of the "suspension of disbelief" process. For instance, how does Bulldog have the time to learn how to pilot a Cylon raider, when Starbuck took hours to figure out how to operate the thing? Also, how would Bulldog be able to operate the FTL drive -- Kobol's Last Gleaming pretty much made it clear that the FTL drive needed an actual computer, given that the brain had to be ripped out in order for it to be piloted manually. But that's another not so fine mess.
: As for the Cylon plans, well, they're clearly compliated and seem to be changing since the attack. Whether or not this is by design has yet to be detrmined, though I sincerely doubt that the writer's have this thing all planned out a la ''Babylon 5''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:30, 19 November 2006 (CST)

::Yeah, I know what you're saying. I also doubt it's all planned out B5-style (hasn't Ron basically said something to that effect anyway, like how much they enjoy making it up as they go along?), but that doesn't mean it necessarily can't all add up in the end, and we should assume that they ''do'' know what they are doing until they are proven wrong.

::Also, a lot of people have been talking about how unrealistic it is for Bulldog to have learned how to operate the raider in such a short time. I'm not trying to start an arguement about this, but I don't actually remember them saying that he had only a short time to learn how to use the raider. Are you guys just assuming that he had to learn it all quickly based on the rushed nature of his escape? Is there a reason he couldn't have actually had a few hours to do it? I mean, if they let him escape, then he could have been in the basestar hangar for hours trying to work the controls while they watched (and snickered) from behind the glass. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 23:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:I agree that a lot of people have seemed predisposed to cry foul lately--I can understand how the scientific goofs in "A Measure of Salvation" could've set people on edge--but I do think it's possible that if the Cylons are operating under a religious motivation, that their plan does go beyond a simple "kill all humans" approach. They may see the need to exact specific steps of revenge/torture against humanity, perhaps a particular punishment for each perceived offense. That's just one possibility, but it could well be they have the death of a thousand cuts in mind for the remnants of humanity. I think Drumstick's probably on to something here. Or you know, if they wanted Bulldog to escape, they could have trained a Raider (which wasn't injured like Starbuck's) to understand and obey his commands or even set it up with an interface that a human could use. Until we see proof or disproof of all the different theories, I think it's too early to try to claim BsG has jumped the shark or anything similar. I also have to wonder if anybody here has writing experience with writing a full-length work. I am working on my first novel, and keeping total, perfect consistency is not easy and while I tend to get the big things right, I am still finding a lot of subtle things that need tweaking, and this despite my best efforts. [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:17, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Possible Discontinuity ==
According to the episode, Adama and friends served on the Valkyrie a year before the attacks. This implies that Adama was only commander of the Galactica for a year before the miniseries. Yet on the Kara Thrace article, it states that Thrace "resigned from flight school as a instructor and transferred as an operational pilot aboard battlestar Galactica under the command of William Adama, where she served for some '''two years prior to the Cylon attack''' on the Twelve Colonies." They can't both be right.

Also, from the Tyrol article: "He served aboard battlestars from the age of eighteen, including Columbia, Atlantia, and Pegasus (Resistance). He has served under William Adama on Galactica for five years (Litmus)." If he served under Adama for 5 years, why didn't he mention the Valkyrie when he was being intimidated by Tigh in Resistance? This could be simply because Tigh would have known that.--[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 22:16, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:No, your first impulse is correct - it's quite certainly an error.
:'''Gaeta:''' And... may I take this opportunity to say that it's been both a pleasure and an honour to serve under you [Adama], these past three years. ([[Miniseries]])
:'''Adama:''' We [Thrace and I] talked about a lot of things. We've been aboard this ship for over two years, we know each other very well. ([[Act of Contrition]])
:'''Adama:''' She [Valerii] was more than that to us. She was more than that to me. She was a vital, living person... aboard my ship for almost two years. She couldn’t have been just a machine. Could you love a machine? ([[The Farm]])
:Also, note that the timeline in Adama's dossier (which seems to be accurate based on other data points) puts his transfer to ''Galactica'' at six years prior to the miniseries.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:48, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::It is quite possible that this is not an error ''per se''. Adama and some of his command staff could easily have been assigned to the more modern Valkyrie from Galactica for the mission. It wouldn't make much sense to send "the bucket" on a stealth mission anyway. Notice Valkyrie seemed smaller and was probably more modernized, which would make it all the better for that type of mission. So Adama could easily have been in command of Galactica for several years prior, been offered command of Valkyrie as a reward, for career advancement or just for the mission... and have been pushed back to Galactica when the mission failed. Certainly the plan to decommission Galactica was in the works for some time, and they would not want one of their good commanders to retire with the ship... until after the mission where he failed. None of the characters would be expected to say "I served under Adama for some years, and some other guy for a couple of months, then Adama again." They would just say they served with him for X number of years. If we compare to the modern US Navy, this sort of thing is not all the uncommon.--[[User:Xealot|Xealot]] 10:22, 20 November 2006 (CST)
:::The dossier's progression from XO of ''Columbia'' to Commander of ''Valkyrie'' to Commander of ''Galactica'' seems to indicate that ''Valkyrie'' was his first battlestar command. Though I agree that the serve under "X years" would fly if they stayed under him. It's just the "this ship"'s that start biting them. (When they specify the ship instead of the command.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:53, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::It's really embarassing in continuity. If they had put the entire affair a few years further into the past, it would have made much more sense not only in Adamas biography, but also in the overall plot. Boomer served on ''Galactica'' for two years and probably spend some additional time at flight school, so Adama must know the Cylon infiltration started long before the Stealth-Star incident. This should really get Adama to ask himself how long the attack had been planned, though he might convince himself that the Cylons put their infiltrators in place just as a precaution and his actions led to their decision to actually use them. A few years more time between the attack and the incident would put the estimated start of Cylon infiltration (which actually could be anywhere between 2 and 20 years before the attack) around the same time, giving Adama a far more powerful reason to believe that he started it right there. I would like to think that putting the incident one year before attack was just an accident, but then it would probably become even more difficult to explain how Bulldog survived that long.

::Another point that's problematic: did ''Valkyrie'' have an integrated computer-network? Up to this episode all information we had suggested that all battlestars save ''Galactica'' had them and that it was Adamas position of ''no network on my ship'' that prevented an upgrade.

::*If ''Valkyrie'' had a network Adamas politics of ''it's all hand on here'' are somewhat harder to believe. Up to now it looked like the position of a war-veteran who opposed networks on principle, this is harder to believe if he already commanded a ship with such a network.

::*If there was no network on ''Valkyrie'', then why wasn't there one? It appears extremely unlikely that the networks were all installed in the time between the incident and the attack, though the decision cannot have been made to long before Adama took command of ''Galactica'', because the previous commander would probably have had it installed. And given that it must have been a major decision to put networks on battlestars once more it's hard to believe that the Admirality would allow commanders to pull the plug on it as they see fit. I can imagine Adamas opposition being tolerated on ''Galactica'', because it was an old battlestar nearing it's decommissioning with a design that may have been especially hard to upgrade (regardless of Gaetas patchwork in [[Scattered]]). They could have simply decided that it was not worth the effort to force Adama to accept the upgrade. But that would be hard to believe for ''Valkyrie'', if you are sending a battlestar on such a sensitive mission you want it at maximum performance. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:49, 20 November 2006 (CST)

:::The network thing isn't hugely problematic. We have no notion of how old ''Valkyrie'' was. ''Atlantia'' was at least 17 years old at the time of the attack (based on Adama's dossier), and was still worthy to serve as Nagala's flagship in the Miniseries. ''Galactica'' was even older. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Cylon detector problems ==

There's some inconsistency with the "Cylon Detector" that Doc Cottle used to determine that Bulldog was a human. First of all, if you look at the screen caps, [http://galacticabbs.com/index.php?act=module&module=gallery&cmd=si&img=56612|like this one], you can see that the screen says "-RESULTS NEGATIVE-" If he was testing the DNA against their military records, it should say "-RESULTS POSITIVE-" If it's negative, the DNA doesn't match. That, or it's supposed to be a Cylon Detector, and it's saying that he's not a Cylon. It seems like it could be a simple goof between dialogue and props.

However, going along with the DNA reasoning... that doesn't necessarily prove anything, does it? If they tested Boomer's DNA against the DNA they have on record for her, I assume it's going to match, since they probably took Cylon DNA initially. Who's to say that the same thing didn't happen to Bulldog? In that case, his DNA would match, but he'd be a Cylon. Seems like a poor determiner of race, that's all. I don't think that he's necessarily a Cylon, just that this is another "oops."

--It might prove something...if the Colonials have DNA records going all the way back to a person's birth. If they're matching against that kind of original record (heck, maybe they even have the parents' records, too), then that may well constitute proof. [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:06, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Moved content ==

Folks, stuff like this needs to be removed (or reworded) on sight. Right now, this document reads a bit like it's arguing with itself. Before adding content that seems to contradict itself, please discuss it on the talk page -- that's what this feature is for.

Below, here's what I've removed thus far from the article that contradicts itself. Stuff like this, ''again'', must be hashed out on talk pages before entering the main article space. Thank you. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:52, 20 November 2006 (CST)

=== Removed content ===

*[[Dualla]] apparently served on the Valkyrie; she can be seen in the background standing behind Adama and Tigh in the flashback scenes.
**That person in the scene is most likley not Dualla; it's not easy to see because the flashback-scenes in the CIC have (deliberatly) not the best quality.

Talk:Hero/Archive2

2006-11-21T08:50:47Z

Steve: /* Folks in White Robes */

== Can We compare Adama to President George....Washington? :) ==
I was reading the quote from Eick, "...Adama begins to believe that on some level he might have been responsible for provoking the Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies." and for some reason I felt that thie reminded me of Gorge Washington long before we was president or even commander-in-chief when, before the 7-Years-War, Washington was involved in a skirmish with the French over Fort Necessity, aka Pittsburgh (yes, we fought a battle for that city) that led to Washington signing a treaty stating, unbeknownst to him because he couldn't speak French and his interpreter sucked, that he committed attrocities against France in the name of the British Empire. This, according to many historians, led to the 7 Years War, known in America as the French and Indian War, that would decimate Northern Germany. I'm sure Washington at some level had to be aware of this error on his part and led him to remorse I imagine. Anyways, the story is different but I was wondering how many parallels there will be, if there will be, in this episode to Washington's conundrum. I wanted to ask a question on the article page but couldn't concise it enough for wiki standards. I may ask on the scifi bboard but input on this would be appreciated before I do. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 19:42, 3 August 2006 (PST)
:That's an interesting analogy, showing a fine attention to historical detail. I think the parallel has minor flaws, though, since Washington's conduct in that matter isn't generally considered morally wrong so much as foolish. [[Wikipedia:Gavrilo Princip|Gavrilo Princip]] might be worth considering as a parallel; he was the immediate but not ultimate cause of a devastating war, and he precipitated the conflict by attacking his fellow countryman, thinking it justified in contrast to the general consensus. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 02:28, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

:: It's unlikely that Adama's actions are quite the transgression that he believes it to be; after all, the [[cylon agent|Cylons had been violating the armistice line]] for about a half a year prior to Adama's, anyway.[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 02:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)

::: I was wondering about the timeline as well. I think Adama says somthing like, the mission was a year before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|attack]], but the cylons had been planning the attack for two years. However, I think there is an error in the timeline. Adama also says he served with Boomer for two years, and I think he implied that it was on Galactica. Gaeta also says that he served with Adama for three years. It is possible that Gaeta was on the Valkyrie for a year, but I think the mission happened about two years before the attack, not just one. I will rewatch the episode, but do you have any ideas? [[User:Jrmurph|Jrmurph]] 12:21, 18 November 2006 (EST)
:::: I think there is an inconsistency in the story. It is not unexplainable, ie Gaeta and Boomer served with Adama on the Valkyrie, but it did seem like nobody other than Adama or Tigh recognized Bulldog so the timeline is a little esquew. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:01, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Another Battlestar? ==
There is a spoiler image showing Adm Adama and Col Tigh in the CIC of the Battlestar Valkerie. I zoomed in on Adama and saw he had his Admiral's pins on. Might this be a sign that they soon will find yet another Battlestar? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:24, 15 November 2006 (CST)
: It's a flashback scene. It may be more of a costuming error. Note that Tigh still has his eye in that promo shot. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 01:39, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:: Right. Two eyed Tigh. Darn. I was hoping they'd find another Battlestar cause I do miss the Pegasus. It was bigger, much cooler and the doors made this cool "beep" when they opened. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:50, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:::You can visit [[Valkyrie]] as well. It's a spoiler until Friday but you can adjust it with some new data later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:36, 15 November 2006 (CST)
::::It's true, I saw the Admiral pips as well, the flashback should have been Commander pips; as the Stealth ship incident occurred three years ago. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 22:56, 17 November 2006 (CST)
: The Valkerie looked to be a Mercury class Battlestar. This would make sense because the galactica class was an older ship and has been all but replaced with the newer bigger and more efficent Mercury class.--[[User:Mike|Mike]] 09:30, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It's definately not a Mercury, the only part really similar is the engine block. If anything, it looked most like a reimagining of the original series battlestar, down to the rectangular opening in the flightpod and the angular head. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::Inside it looks like a Mercury yes. That's a sign of its age. But outside, it's far smaller than a full-sized battlestar. Look at the gun battery on the top. There's only one and almost covers the width of the ship there. See the Valkyrie page for more details (where this discussion should take place), but I think it's basically a smaller battlestar meant for support duties. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:52, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:: Not disagreeing with your main point, but its quite possible that there were far more Battlestar classes than just the "Cylon War Type" and the Mecurcy class, given that the colonies built up a fleet of arround 120 Battlestars over about 50 years, particularly as the Viper apparently went through 5 different itterations over this time, although we are likely never going to see the intervening versions of either type --[[User:Useless|Useless]] 09:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Barry Kennedy as Admiral Corman ==

Hey all, I was just checking on Barry Kennedy's link, and it links to an IMDB page other than his profile page detailing his filmography, and etc. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 23:52, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:That's because some people keep forgeting the "nm" when entering imdb numbers and in that case the link default to title instead of actor --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:53, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The Stealth-Star==
hey i just noticed this but the name of the ship was the stealth star so someone(not me)should create it a page. Best Snorkel378
:Already done [[Stealth Star]]. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:41, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The scene with Baltar, Six and Three in bed==
it says on there that 3 is having a sexual realationship with baltar and six?
Cylons arent lesbos i think they were having a 3some {{unsigned|Snorkel378}}
:You are assuming that the Six we see is Caprica-Six and not Baltar's internal Six. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 20:49, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It would be an odd choice cinematically to have Three wake up from a dream and show us something from inside Baltar's head. {{unsigned|Wldkt1}}
:::Please remembe rto sign your posts on talk pages guys <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:05, 19 November 2006 (CST)
The fact that Baltar and Six are in a 'clutch' position makes it unlikely that it's his internal Six. Three would have noticed Baltar trying to hug thin air in his sleep. Baltar is also in the center of the bed, rather than on one side. In addition, Caprica seems to be aware of (and approves) Three's new interest in Baltar. Regarding the possibility of a relationship between Three and Six: that is only speculation, but just because we haven't seen a lesbian relationship between cylons doesn't mean one isn't possible.[[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 22:18, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:It could be that Caprica-Six sees this as a way to weaken Baltar--after all, the formula for getting Baltar to give up secrets seems pretty clear: get in his bed, get in his head, so to speak. Remember that during the torture in previous episodes, he said to Three, "I love you with all of my heart." That's what started the relationship, so I think Three is interested in Baltar for whatever reason, not necessarily Six. Plus, on a more humorous note...I have to wonder if the Cylons have any sexual relations amongst themselves at all. This could be one deprived Cylon... [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:24, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==The Black Ops Mission==
Does anyone think that the entire mission was poorly concieved? First, the Colonials jump a Battlestar to very close range of the armistice line, which one would expect to attract attention in and of itself. Second, we see the ''Valkyrie'' track the S-Star after launch and over the line. This either means the Valkyrie tracked it directly on DRADIS, which indicates it's not much of a stealth ship and that the Cylons should be able to detect it as well, or the S-Star has some sort of transponder reporting its position, which is also something the Cylons should detect. Finally, as referenced in the main article, the S-Star maintains radio contact with the ''Valkyrie'' throughout the whole mission, again something the Cylons should be able to detect. Would the writers have really overlooked all this, or are we meant to conclude that the Admriality meant for the mission to have been discovered by the Cylons? --[[User:Cleophus|Cleophus]] 22:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:-The mission is quite similar to the United States' U2 overflights during the late 1950's and 60's. Certain similarities between the depicted incident and the [[:wikipedia:U-2 Crisis of 1960|incident involving Francis Gary Powers]] can be read. It also conjures up several dozen observation flights by aircraft such as specially outfitted C-130's flying perilously close to a boundary line — even going so far as to slip a wingtip across it to "call a bluff". Also, there's the incident involving the Chinese Gai-8 fighter and the US P-3 Orion.
:In the case of our Colonials here, the stealth craft is more than likely equipped with an "odd frequency" (either very low or very high), encrypted transponder that transmits on a specific wavelength, only for IFF purposes. If I recall correctly, F-117 Nighthawks can still use their radios when on ops (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I suspect that this mission was proposed in order to get a glimpse into ''any'' Cylon activity. The stealth craft would be dangled out as a tiny bit of bait – just enough to get a response. Its stealth characteristics would increase its ability to dash back across the Armistice Line untracked and unaffected, and then ''Valkyrie'' would be able to observe and record the arriving Cylons. If questions were raised ("What are you doing here?" ... "Good question, what are ''you'' doing here?" ... "We detected you over the Armistice Line." ... "Who, us? Noooo... We've been on our side this whole time, just trolling about, watching over our miners over there on that moon there. So why are you here again? You don't mind if we take some photos of you while you're here, do you?"), the Colonials would feign ignorance and innocence, but they'd at least have a response... something that the Cylons haven't even projected in thirty-plus years. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:--Is it possible that the Stealth Star was shot down by a Colonial Force in hopes that it would percipitate a conflict? Similar to the Gulf of Tonkin? This way the Colonials can say one of their ships got lost and was destroyed by the Cylons in cold blood (Or something along those lines). Also, it makes no sense a ship would jump in, shoot the S-Star, and jump out. Why wouldnt it commit to killin the S-Star? --[[User:Skrip00|Skrip00]] 16:31, 20 November 2006 (CST)

:: Perhaps. We don't know either way. To be honest, after some seriously critical thought about it on my part, there's really not much of it that makes sense, since it was poorly explained in the episode. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:55, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==Folks in White Robes==
Aren't there five white-robed figures in Number Three's vision? It's pretty speculative, but maybe these are meant to represent the five missing Cylon models (maybe they've undergone some kind of transcendence, and are "with God now" or something). Maybe the article should note this (after all, the white-robes show up for the first time just a couple episodes after we first learn that there's definitely something different or mysterious about the five missing models), though I don't know the proper section for it. {{unsigned|Steve}}

:- I noticed that too, but was going to "acquire" the episode and re-watch that part, or watch it again on Monday to see... I _think_ there are five humanoid figures in white robes, kneeling or seated in that semi-circle when Three walks amongst them. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:Three's in the opera house on Kobol where Baltar's internal Six shows him Hera's cradle; I believe those are the same white drapes that can be seen on the opera house stage in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 11:38, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Well I agree she's in the opera house from KLG, but I don't think I'm seeingto the drapes. In the initial shot of the opera house, there seem to be five glowing figures standing between the six white drapes. Some of the quick shots of the opera house that follow show these figures, and some do not (as though they are alternately hiding and revealing themselves). At the end of her experience, Three approaches and reaches out to one of these figures just before she is resurrected. --[[User:Steve|Steve]] 02:50, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Reference to Raising Arizona? ==

I'm new here, so I didn't want to jump right into the thick of things by adding this to the main page before running it by other people...when Adama and Novacek are sitting down for the first time, Adama asks him something like "How did you escape, Bulldog?". Novacek rambles for a little bit (again, I don't remember exact words) but wraps up with "I felt the facility no longer had anything to offer me...". If I'm not mistaken, this is a reference to Raising Arizona--John Goodman's character says just about the exact same thing after he breaks out of prison. I can't seem to find the line on IMDB or Wikiquote, though... {{unsigned|MikeDanger}}
:Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:As far as I remember "Raising Arizona", the dialogue goes like this: 
:''- You busted outta jail?'' 
:''- No, ma'am. We released ourselves on our own recognizance.'' 
:''- What Evelle is tryin' to say is we felt the institution no longer had anything to offer us.'' -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 08:28, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Insight into Cylon plan ==
If the Cylons know where the Colonials are, or at least know well enough to send Bulldog at them, it's common sense to ask, why don't they just attack? Well, maybe their goal isn't to destroy Galactica et al outright but something more complex. One thing that does seem consistent with their plan is their desire to kill Adama, perhaps because they want to send the fleet into disarray without him at the top. Examples: Leoben telling Roslin that Adama's a Cylon in Flesh and Blood, Boomer shooting Adama repeatedly in Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. II. There may be more examples that I can't think of right now.

People have been crying out "plot hole!" with reckless abandon in light of Bulldog's ability to pinpoint Galactica's position, but if the Cylon plan really is as simple as ''kill all humans,'' as these detractors might claim, then much of the show falls apart. The reality is, we don't really know the Cylon plan, and at this point, there's really no reason to jump to the conclusion that the writers are just too lazy to think of one. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 18:22, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:The Cylons might know full well where the Colonials are but if they jumped in a couple of Basestars then the fleet would zip out of there pretty sharpish and might go somewhere where the Cylons dont know and they will have to find them all over again. IMO, their plan is a long game. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 19:17, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:IMHO, "Hero" is the weakest episode of the series yet. There's just too many logic errors for me to dismiss as part of the "suspension of disbelief" process. For instance, how does Bulldog have the time to learn how to pilot a Cylon raider, when Starbuck took hours to figure out how to operate the thing? Also, how would Bulldog be able to operate the FTL drive -- Kobol's Last Gleaming pretty much made it clear that the FTL drive needed an actual computer, given that the brain had to be ripped out in order for it to be piloted manually. But that's another not so fine mess.
: As for the Cylon plans, well, they're clearly compliated and seem to be changing since the attack. Whether or not this is by design has yet to be detrmined, though I sincerely doubt that the writer's have this thing all planned out a la ''Babylon 5''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:30, 19 November 2006 (CST)

::Yeah, I know what you're saying. I also doubt it's all planned out B5-style (hasn't Ron basically said something to that effect anyway, like how much they enjoy making it up as they go along?), but that doesn't mean it necessarily can't all add up in the end, and we should assume that they ''do'' know what they are doing until they are proven wrong.

::Also, a lot of people have been talking about how unrealistic it is for Bulldog to have learned how to operate the raider in such a short time. I'm not trying to start an arguement about this, but I don't actually remember them saying that he had only a short time to learn how to use the raider. Are you guys just assuming that he had to learn it all quickly based on the rushed nature of his escape? Is there a reason he couldn't have actually had a few hours to do it? I mean, if they let him escape, then he could have been in the basestar hangar for hours trying to work the controls while they watched (and snickered) from behind the glass. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 23:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:I agree that a lot of people have seemed predisposed to cry foul lately--I can understand how the scientific goofs in "A Measure of Salvation" could've set people on edge--but I do think it's possible that if the Cylons are operating under a religious motivation, that their plan does go beyond a simple "kill all humans" approach. They may see the need to exact specific steps of revenge/torture against humanity, perhaps a particular punishment for each perceived offense. That's just one possibility, but it could well be they have the death of a thousand cuts in mind for the remnants of humanity. I think Drumstick's probably on to something here. Or you know, if they wanted Bulldog to escape, they could have trained a Raider (which wasn't injured like Starbuck's) to understand and obey his commands or even set it up with an interface that a human could use. Until we see proof or disproof of all the different theories, I think it's too early to try to claim BsG has jumped the shark or anything similar. I also have to wonder if anybody here has writing experience with writing a full-length work. I am working on my first novel, and keeping total, perfect consistency is not easy and while I tend to get the big things right, I am still finding a lot of subtle things that need tweaking, and this despite my best efforts. [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:17, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Possible Discontinuity ==
According to the episode, Adama and friends served on the Valkyrie a year before the attacks. This implies that Adama was only commander of the Galactica for a year before the miniseries. Yet on the Kara Thrace article, it states that Thrace "resigned from flight school as a instructor and transferred as an operational pilot aboard battlestar Galactica under the command of William Adama, where she served for some '''two years prior to the Cylon attack''' on the Twelve Colonies." They can't both be right.

Also, from the Tyrol article: "He served aboard battlestars from the age of eighteen, including Columbia, Atlantia, and Pegasus (Resistance). He has served under William Adama on Galactica for five years (Litmus)." If he served under Adama for 5 years, why didn't he mention the Valkyrie when he was being intimidated by Tigh in Resistance? This could be simply because Tigh would have known that.--[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 22:16, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:No, your first impulse is correct - it's quite certainly an error.
:'''Gaeta:''' And... may I take this opportunity to say that it's been both a pleasure and an honour to serve under you [Adama], these past three years. ([[Miniseries]])
:'''Adama:''' We [Thrace and I] talked about a lot of things. We've been aboard this ship for over two years, we know each other very well. ([[Act of Contrition]])
:'''Adama:''' She [Valerii] was more than that to us. She was more than that to me. She was a vital, living person... aboard my ship for almost two years. She couldn’t have been just a machine. Could you love a machine? ([[The Farm]])
:Also, note that the timeline in Adama's dossier (which seems to be accurate based on other data points) puts his transfer to ''Galactica'' at six years prior to the miniseries.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:48, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::It is quite possible that this is not an error ''per se''. Adama and some of his command staff could easily have been assigned to the more modern Valkyrie from Galactica for the mission. It wouldn't make much sense to send "the bucket" on a stealth mission anyway. Notice Valkyrie seemed smaller and was probably more modernized, which would make it all the better for that type of mission. So Adama could easily have been in command of Galactica for several years prior, been offered command of Valkyrie as a reward, for career advancement or just for the mission... and have been pushed back to Galactica when the mission failed. Certainly the plan to decommission Galactica was in the works for some time, and they would not want one of their good commanders to retire with the ship... until after the mission where he failed. None of the characters would be expected to say "I served under Adama for some years, and some other guy for a couple of months, then Adama again." They would just say they served with him for X number of years. If we compare to the modern US Navy, this sort of thing is not all the uncommon.--[[User:Xealot|Xealot]] 10:22, 20 November 2006 (CST)
:::The dossier's progression from XO of ''Columbia'' to Commander of ''Valkyrie'' to Commander of ''Galactica'' seems to indicate that ''Valkyrie'' was his first battlestar command. Though I agree that the serve under "X years" would fly if they stayed under him. It's just the "this ship"'s that start biting them. (When they specify the ship instead of the command.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:53, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::It's really embarassing in continuity. If they had put the entire affair a few years further into the past, it would have made much more sense not only in Adamas biography, but also in the overall plot. Boomer served on ''Galactica'' for two years and probably spend some additional time at flight school, so Adama must know the Cylon infiltration started long before the Stealth-Star incident. This should really get Adama to ask himself how long the attack had been planned, though he might convince himself that the Cylons put their infiltrators in place just as a precaution and his actions led to their decision to actually use them. A few years more time between the attack and the incident would put the estimated start of Cylon infiltration (which actually could be anywhere between 2 and 20 years before the attack) around the same time, giving Adama a far more powerful reason to believe that he started it right there. I would like to think that putting the incident one year before attack was just an accident, but then it would probably become even more difficult to explain how Bulldog survived that long.

::Another point that's problematic: did ''Valkyrie'' have an integrated computer-network? Up to this episode all information we had suggested that all battlestars save ''Galactica'' had them and that it was Adamas position of ''no network on my ship'' that prevented an upgrade.

::*If ''Valkyrie'' had a network Adamas politics of ''it's all hand on here'' are somewhat harder to believe. Up to now it looked like the position of a war-veteran who opposed networks on principle, this is harder to believe if he already commanded a ship with such a network.

::*If there was no network on ''Valkyrie'', then why wasn't there one? It appears extremely unlikely that the networks were all installed in the time between the incident and the attack, though the decision cannot have been made to long before Adama took command of ''Galactica'', because the previous commander would probably have had it installed. And given that it must have been a major decision to put networks on battlestars once more it's hard to believe that the Admirality would allow commanders to pull the plug on it as they see fit. I can imagine Adamas opposition being tolerated on ''Galactica'', because it was an old battlestar nearing it's decommissioning with a design that may have been especially hard to upgrade (regardless of Gaetas patchwork in [[Scattered]]). They could have simply decided that it was not worth the effort to force Adama to accept the upgrade. But that would be hard to believe for ''Valkyrie'', if you are sending a battlestar on such a sensitive mission you want it at maximum performance. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:49, 20 November 2006 (CST)

:::The network thing isn't hugely problematic. We have no notion of how old ''Valkyrie'' was. ''Atlantia'' was at least 17 years old at the time of the attack (based on Adama's dossier), and was still worthy to serve as Nagala's flagship in the Miniseries. ''Galactica'' was even older. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Cylon detector problems ==

There's some inconsistency with the "Cylon Detector" that Doc Cottle used to determine that Bulldog was a human. First of all, if you look at the screen caps, [http://galacticabbs.com/index.php?act=module&module=gallery&cmd=si&img=56612|like this one], you can see that the screen says "-RESULTS NEGATIVE-" If he was testing the DNA against their military records, it should say "-RESULTS POSITIVE-" If it's negative, the DNA doesn't match. That, or it's supposed to be a Cylon Detector, and it's saying that he's not a Cylon. It seems like it could be a simple goof between dialogue and props.

However, going along with the DNA reasoning... that doesn't necessarily prove anything, does it? If they tested Boomer's DNA against the DNA they have on record for her, I assume it's going to match, since they probably took Cylon DNA initially. Who's to say that the same thing didn't happen to Bulldog? In that case, his DNA would match, but he'd be a Cylon. Seems like a poor determiner of race, that's all. I don't think that he's necessarily a Cylon, just that this is another "oops."

--It might prove something...if the Colonials have DNA records going all the way back to a person's birth. If they're matching against that kind of original record (heck, maybe they even have the parents' records, too), then that may well constitute proof. [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:06, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Moved content ==

Folks, stuff like this needs to be removed (or reworded) on sight. Right now, this document reads a bit like it's arguing with itself. Before adding content that seems to contradict itself, please discuss it on the talk page -- that's what this feature is for.

Below, here's what I've removed thus far from the article that contradicts itself. Stuff like this, ''again'', must be hashed out on talk pages before entering the main article space. Thank you. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:52, 20 November 2006 (CST)

=== Removed content ===

*[[Dualla]] apparently served on the Valkyrie; she can be seen in the background standing behind Adama and Tigh in the flashback scenes.
**That person in the scene is most likley not Dualla; it's not easy to see because the flashback-scenes in the CIC have (deliberatly) not the best quality.

Talk:Hero/Archive2

2006-11-19T09:29:44Z

Steve: