Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II/Archive2

2006-03-13T19:48:35Z

Stealthboy: /* We'll Be Back */

== The Cliffhanger ==

I'm betting that Baltar's little gift to the [[Demand Peace]] movement makes its way to ''Pegasus'' and is about to destroy or mortally damage the battlestar in this season closer. Mortally damaging it makes more sense to allow ''Galactica'' (and the show) to gather some of the new resources that ''Pegasus'' brought before it has to be removed from the picture. Perhaps, in coordination with a probable Cylon attack, ''Pegasus'' may end up doing a "[[The Living Legend, Part II|Commander Cain charge]]" at the start of Season 3. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:52, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quite drinking...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:02, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::Is it just me, or does the second season seem to be bouncing from cliffhanger to cliffhanger, with the in-between episodes being nothing but filler? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:08, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:::It isn't just you... Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quit sniffing glue. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:22, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::::I don't mind the "filler" episodes. I believe you need them to set up future stories down the road. I believe PEGASUS will stick around for one or two episodes next year(Gives them time to strip her down)....Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines!--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:36, 15 February 2006 (EST)
::::: I don't think the Pegasus is going anywhere... I do wonder what the rescue operation will look like though. I haven't quit anything this week... except maybe worrying. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]] 09:58, 13 March 2006 (CST)

There's no cliffhanger, really. The Cylons win, humanity is occupied and the ships of the fleet are essentially empty with everyone down on Cylon-occupied New Caprica. The show is completely different from here on out. Cloud Nine is gone (which from a production standpoint makes sense--- no need for a planet-like ship when they have an actual planet) and all the leads but Lee, Adama and possibly Sharon are on the planet, hoping not to be killed by their new Cylon overlords. It's awesome. Oh, girlBilly seems to be sticking around as a character as well. [[User:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]]

:You have no idea; that's just fanfic. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:11, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::Could one or the other of you please explain what that last enormous edit-and-reversion was all about? Numbertwelve, have you seen the episode in question? Are you passing on reports from other sources, and if so, can you identify them? Merv, are you familiar with a fanfic that resembles his description? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:18, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::Well, it sounds like he was just posting his own ''guesses/fanfic ideas'' without any basis on actual material, so I cleaned it up. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)
::::I believe that the info is coming from [http://greycoupon.livejournal.com/3808.html BIG SPOILERS]. Don't know the validity of it though.
:::::Based on the what I've read of the Part I summary, I'd say that the information was actually accurate. That said, I'm not sure this site really wants to post detailed episode summaries before the episode has actually aired anywhere, especially when we have no way of confirming the source.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:35, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: In all likelihood, numbertwelve's comments stem from [http://www.patriotresource.com/bg/insights/spoilers/season2b.html here]. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:24, 8 March 2006 (CST)

::::::: Judging by that picture, I think those spoilers might be right, though I seriously hope they are dead wrong, anyone else hope this? --[[User:LeobenConoy|LeobenConoy]] 02:30, 10 March 2006 (TST)

:::::::: It certainly would be a heck of a sharp turn for the series, but, y'know, I'm OK with that. RDM really kinda needs to keep making sharp turns to keep the series from falling too much into the established track of the Original Series, for one thing. For another thing, I like surprises :-) I don't want this story to become too predictable. Actually, when I look back over the two seasons to date, RDM et alia have not allowed us to settle into anything like a routine for more than a few episodes before they kick over the tables again. That's a good thing. That said, if the spoilers are in fact correct...it's going to be a long six months 'til we find out how the situation resolves itself...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:12, 9 March 2006 (CST)

::::::::: Well, actually, [[user:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]] was right! I don't know who he/she is, but (s)he knew what'll happen exactly in ''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'' Anyway, it's the best ep so far! --[[User:Nyiz|Nyiz]] 16:14, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== The Peace Proposal ==

I haven't actually seen "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]", yet (I don't have cable, so I'm basically watching via DVD as time allows), but reading the summary, I see no mention of the Cylon peace proposal in the story as aired. It looks as though the preliminary data for the episodes was somewhat misleading, and that the peace proposal won't come until Part II. The Part II article, however, still reflects the old information. Should this be changed now? Or just wait for Friday's airing and the full summary?--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:32, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Speechless ==
Holy crap they turned everything on its head. I can't think of a better way of stating the obvious. ONE YEAR LATER!?!?!? Crap. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 22:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Yep...and we'll have to wait about that frakkin' long to find out WTF happens next...:)
[[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 22:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Well, look at it this way - if they ever want to bring [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]] back due to chronology issues, they now have an excuse. Actually, I'm surprised they didn't have the character (if not the actor) doing a cameo in the schooltent.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|D]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I personally was asking, "Where's the kicker?" Well, nothing like a second Cylon occupation to do that for you. As for October...hell, they haven't even started shooting the season yet. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:32, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::You really have to find it pretty ironic that Baltar's fraked over the Colonies again. He gives Gina the bomb, fraks her, she blows up Cloud 9 (and Gods know how many ships she took with her in that blast) and Baltar forces everyone to colonize the plantet... and the Cylons find it because of the nuclear blast. How's that for a kicker? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Katee Sackhoff has to grow out her hair. She can't keep using that wig all season. Well, and the writers haven't figured out what the hell they're going to do now :P [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:06, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::I'm not sure when this episode was filmed, but she still has a month to go before they start shooting Season 3, according to SciFi. I'm sure Moore and friends have plenty of ideas to go with. The questions posted for this episode should give some possible ideas, if they even read this thing. :P --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
That was totally awesome. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:37, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I was on pins and needles the entire time. It was so good! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:56, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:: I'm just so happy that I have no idea what's going to happen next. What a fantastic finale. --[[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]] 1:48, 11 March 2006 (EST)

== Well Then... ==

Wasn't that something. I glanced over the rumors prior, but it has to be seen to get the real effect. That, and I was hoping they were dead wrong. --[[User:Michael|Michael]] 22:16, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought generally the execution of these spoilers was much better than my expections. --[[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 00:10, 11 March 2006 (EST)

== "Rampant speculation" re Starbuck/Conoy connection ==

I don't think that the ''analysis'' section is the place for something with little backing... at least currently.

: ''Although this is rampant speculation, given the warped obsession/relationship that Leoben has with Starbuck, is it possible that Starbuck's stolen egg cells from "[[The Farm]]" were fertilized with genetic material from the Leoben model to create a new Hybrid? The Cylons do seem to think she's "special".''

Anyone agree or disagree? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: To expand my point further, ''Conoy'' believed that Starbuck was special. Just because Conoy is a Cylon doesn't mean the ''Cylons'' share his belief. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

No arguements here. I've always been fuzzy on the exact parameters of the "analysis" section, however, this thought occurred to me when I remembered that A) They said that Starbuck's missing ovaries would be mentioned before the end of the season, B) It's going to be a major plot point in season 3.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:03, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: Well, in keeping with the original inspiration for the Wiki -- The Lurker's Guide to B5 -- the analysis section has always analyzed the episode. For instance, what the episode had to say, how that fit in to the grand tapestry, how that fit into real life, and things of that nature. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:12, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Long live the Lurkers guide! Best guide ever. There's also a B5 wiki being created (see my user page for the link). --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:25, 10 March 2006 (CST)

My speculation is that the reason Conoy is seeking out Kara Thrace has more to do with the events that took place with Anders, Caprica 6 and Sharon(1) in the episode downloaded...the thing with the dogtag. but we will find out in october I suppose.--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

== DubyaBaltar ==

I'd never put this in the actual wiki article, but does it strike anyone else who many jabs they're getting it at another ridiculously incompetent president? "I don't have to listen to the facts...I'm the president". etc. ''Remember, Remember the Fifth of November''.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: Though I don't think GWB has harems. Mr. Nice Gaius seems to have him beat there. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:11, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought it was a reference to Roslin and Adar's statements about "the nice thing about being President..." --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:13, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, Adar said that first. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Plus, Baltar was good friends with Adar prior to the attack. The womanizing was just good 'ol self-serving Baltar. And, when was Gaius ever nice? --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:28, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::See the dialogue section of [[Six Degrees of Separation]] for your answer Sgtpayne. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:31, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Just checked the page requested, and I'm not sure that's helping the argument. The statement is defensive in nature. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:37, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::::It's not an argument, it's an explanation as to why we're calling him "Mr. Nice Gaius". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:51, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I don't think that they are trying to Bush bash... If they were then Baltar would have been the one stealing the election. (I don't believe that Bush stole the election, but it is a common belief among Bush bashers.) Perhaps they are trying to comment on American elections in general and there are similarities, but I think the purpose is literary, not political. Oh, and definitely not article material- there is no way this could be unbiased. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]] 10:10, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Does anyone remember... ==

... that crack Cottle made to Cally regarding women talking * (Actually, the good Doctor said "Complain") even when their jaws are wired shut? If so, we should note it under the dialogue section and perhaps on Cottle's page (he seems to have a penchant for sexist dialogue). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:18, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:You know, Joe, I don't know why you point out "Cottle made a sexist remark here" the times that he does (Downloaded, etc.) I mean that's the type of character he is. I mean, we wouldn't list off "well, Archie Bunker did this sexist thing" in an ''All in the Family'' episode guide. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Good point. Still, since it is a part of his personality, I believe it should be noted appropriately. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:29, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Got it. On a side note, there are lots of ''really'' sexist things Cottle could have said about a woman who can't open her mouth, so maybe he should get some credit for holding back... --[[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 10:39, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::None of us, neither the show or any users here, had even had that implication at any time enter our minds. Complete non sequitor. Disgusting to bring up such crudeness, Mr.JohnH. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:38, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::I can't tell if you're being serious or not, here. Because '''I''' certainly had that thought enter my mind, and you can't possibly know what the writers were thinking...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:28, 13 March 2006 (CST)

==Source?==

"Tyrol's union speech alludes to Mario Savio's address during the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in 1964."-->Can I get confirmation on that?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:[http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mario_Savio This is confirmed]. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:34, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Thanks. Great that the show is so political.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:41, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:::I don't think it's political as much as it is human. This is [[Wikipedia: Naturalistic science fiction|"naturalistic" science fiction]], after all. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:56, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Gina's Scars==
We can clearly see that Gina's back is still badly scarred from her treatment on ''Pegasus'' in this episode. However, I seem to recall her back being completely healed in "Epiphanies". Can anybody confirm? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Er, they're on her lower/mid back, while when she was wearing the tank top, you could only see her upper shoulder blades. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:42, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Playa==
At the end of the episode (near the surrender), I thought I saw [[Playa Palacios|"Miss Exclusive"]], though it may have just been a similar-looking blonde. Can someone check this? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 11:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:She's not in the credits. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:03, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Survivor count==
There's a drop of 29 between part 1 and 2: "''A more reasonable explanation is that there was a late update in the survivor count that took into account those who died off-screen during the Cylon attack on the Pegasus in "[[The Captain's Hand]]". Soldiers who are killed are often listed as MIA (Missing in Action) until they can be confirmed as KIA (Killed in Action). In the aftermath of the attack on the Pegasus, it would have taken a while to determine the exact number of crewmen and pilots killed. Also, there were probably a number of crewmen who died from injuries afterwards. As a result, a delay in updating the survivor count is quite likely''"--->No. The survivor count at the beginning of ''Part 1'' would have accounted for these losses. Part 2 takes place weeks, maybe even 2 months past "Captain's Hand"; even "[[Downloaded]]" comes in before there. 2 episodes and about 2 months passed, and we saw no further losses from Captain's Hand beyond the 5 on screen. And the Survivor Count is omniscient. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:05, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: Once would assume that the Fleet has it share of black market thugs and suicidal people... Not everything has to be Cylon related. Just a thought. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:22, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and I have always argued as such...but then that makes the static pop count from end of Captain's Hand through LDYB part I unrealistic itself. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 16:24, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::Well, one would assume that people are reported as missing prior to being reported as dead. Hence the seemingly unrealistic count changes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:32, 11 March 2006 (CST)

::::Even though I STILL think those losses are most likely late figures from "[[The Captain's Hand]]" (I'm not going to argue about this), another possible reason for the drop could be the results of election-related riots/murders. Stuff like that happens. Either that or the writers just screwed up.--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 16:45, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::And, ultimately, that is the problem... it's all about '''thought''', not '''fact'''. Until we know for certain why these variances occur (and why they register when they do), we could think about it until our brains cry for more oxygen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:58, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Judging by our current standards and conventions, and just logic, no, it is impossible for these to be "left over" number from 3 full episodes ago. Think what you want, but don't add it back to the page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:49, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::::: Just keep in mind, the "omniscient" Survivor Count is controlled by the writers just like everything else. And writers do make mistakes occasionally. Besides what other plausible explanations are there?--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 22:41, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::Really? I had always assumed that it was controlled by mutant space monkeys. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:21, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Cloud Nine bodycount. ==

Am I going completely fuzzy-headed here, or is the fact that Cloud Nine was destroyed before the transition to New Caprica being completely overlooked.
''
*How many people died in the Cloud Nine explosion?
**The Cloud Nine explosion also destroyed ships near it. Given the stated size of the New Caprica population along with subtracting the minimal crew sizes needed to maintain the ships in orbit, you can estimate that approximately 3000 to 5000 people died.
***Actually, we have no idea how many people were still crewing the civilian ships in the Fleet when Galactica and Pegasus jumped away, so it could actually have been thousands less than that.''

The answers to the questions, as I remember what I saw, are completely irrelivant. Noone was colonizing the planet yet.
Or am I completely loosing my mind [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:09, 12 March 2006 (CST)
*No, you're quite sane. Admiral Adama had ordered the first teams to New Caprica just before the commercial break, Baltar's last night with Gina, the inauguration, and the blast. There probably wouldn't have been more than a handful of raptor teams on the surface at the time--not enough to make any appreciable dent in the population figures. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:51, 12 March 2006 (EST).
::I am a little confused as to what your asking, but I will try and clarify:
::The episode states that after a year, there are about 39,000 people on New Caprica. The Galactica and the Pegasus require about 5,000 crew between the two ships, but at the time of Baltars election, were only carrying about 4,000. However, it is made clear that the two battlestars are operating with skeleton crews - so lets say for the sake of arguement that thats 1/2 of normal, which would put the combined crews at 2,500. There are other ships in the defense fleet above New Caprica, looks to be about ten additional ships, if I remember correctly. Lets say they need 600 crew each (see [[The Fleet (RDM)]], but are also running with skeleton crews, which puts them at 10 x 600 = 6,000/2 = 3,000. Combine that with the battlestars crew, you get 5,500. Add that to 39,000 and you get 44,500. Compare with the pre-New Caprica pop of 49,000 and it looks like about 4,500 died in the Nuclear blast. So, no, the destuction of Cloud 9 was not overlooked, it was indeed factored into the New Caprican population. --[[User:Kraetos|Kraetos]] 23:30, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Where should this error go? ==
When we see it parked on the surface of New Caprica, [[Colonial One]] was missing the Colonial/presidential seal that we've seen before on its port side. Nobody would have scraped it off the hull. I know the people down there are desperate for resources, but ''paint chips''? --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:56, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:Well the real answer is that they crew just plain old forgot to put it in the model, but forcontinuity's sake, it could be hypothesized that someone discontent with the Baltar Administration scraped off the seal in the middle of the night as if to say 'this man isn't fit to have the presidential seal on his office/spaceship.' --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 13:18, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::I'd prefer to eschew the fanwankery and note it as the continuity glitch it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:28, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:::'Fanwankery'? It is completely plausible that what I said ''might'' have happened, so how can you conclude that it was a glitch. There are many ways paint like that could have come off. Perhaps when they painted the seal on Colonial One they used a paint not suitable for atmospheric re-entry and it got burned off. Maybe there is some sort of corrosive rain on the plannet that solubilizes lower quality paint. Perhaps Baltar didn't like the design on the seal. The point is that even though it was most likely a continuity glitch it is not ''nesscearily'' one. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::::[[Wikipedia:Fanwank|Fanwank]]. It's my new favorite word. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:: Eh, people... can we stop analyzing why the seal isn't on ''Colonial One''? It's more than likely a CGI glitch -- nothing more. Anything else is just unhealthy obsession. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:43, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::: Um, Joe...we're a bunch of geeks spending our time creating an encyclopedia for a TV show. We're all '''about''' unhealthy obsession, aren't we? That said, this particular debate '''is''' pointless and silly. If there's a real story-based reason for the seal being missing, we'll eventually find out what it is. If there isn't (which is most likely), we won't. Making one up is silly. Fanfic is one thing, but this crack can be easily walked over; it doesn't have to be filled in with crap :-)--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 13:28, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== 6's credits voiceover ==
Should it be part of this episode? It seems that there is no discussion of it here or anywhere else. -- [[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 14:426, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:That was a commercial for Season 3, not part of this episode. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 13:54, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Firefly connection ==

Greenleaf and Persephone; both were planets in Firefly. I noticed the Greenleaf back in Sacrifice, but this episode was the first time that I saw or heard Persephone. It's a nice little homage to Firefly, if it was even on purpose. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 15:20, 12 March 2006 (CST)

:No. You are grasping at straws. "Persephone" is a very generic, widely known Greco-Roman type name, and we only see it on a list briefly. As for "Greenleaf", it has been mentioned like 3 times in dialog, but this is in fact a reference to Legolas from Lord of the Rings (both Firefly and Lord of the Rings appear to have named something after Legolas, independently of each other). However, that doesn't mean we should make a note saying "wow, both Firefly and BSG have a planet named Greenleaf"...because literally HUNDREDS of other books and tv shows have named stuff in homage to LOTR. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== We'll Be Back ==

Before the fleet jumps away, Adm. Adama announces, in McArthuresque fashion, that "We'll be back." So, I was floored to
notice on the podcast for this episode (which I just got around to listening to) that Ron Moore offhandedly mentioned that Edward James Olmos would not be returning for season three. Did anyone else catch that? It was around 25 minutes into the podcast.
--[[User:TomP|TomP]] 1:22, 13 March 2006 (EST)

:It was a JOKE. They were DRUNK. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:32, 13 March 2006 (CST)

::Also, the Chief and Colonel Tigh got married offscreen in this episode, and Season 3 starts off 5 years in the future ;) --[[Bahamut|Bahamut]] 03:22, 13 March 2006 (CST)

:::But they did not say this bit about Olmos in the same manner or even quite the same time-frame. Also, they were clearly joking about the "CGI Adama", but not necessarily about Olmos not coming back. I have listened to this segment a few times now... It doesn't strike me as a joke. --[[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]]

:::: It's possible that this was an inadvertant leak, but usually, if that sort of major cast change was going to happen, there'd be a lot more hubub about it, and that is the only place I've seen it mentioned. Every bit of news so far for S3 is that the cast is being augmented (with Lucy Lawless slated to show up several times as Number Three, and presumably Dean Stockwell as Cavil), but not reduced, and certainly not by one of its headliners. SciFi's [http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?category=0&id=34893 blurb about S3] from a couple days ago still mentions Olmos as a star. I think we have to assume that this is a red herring.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 12:53, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Caprica Six or Gina? ==

The article says:

Are the Six and Eight that Baltar surrendered to Caprica-Six and Galactica-Sharon?
* Judging from Six's reaction to Baltar, almost definitely.

However, couldn't it actually be Gina, and not Caprica-Six? From what we've seen in ''Downloaded'', I doubt the "war heroes" would join the Cylon fleet, let alone try to enslave humanity. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 08:46, 13 March 2006 (CST)

* Gina was direclty proximate to a thermonuclear explosion, and there's no Resurrection Ship currently afloat. Chances are that Gina's instance of Number Six will not be back.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:13, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Questions Section ==
It seems like we have a problem with the "Questions" section of the episode guides. Modeled after the Lurker's Guide to B5 (a resource that I STILL use, whenever I rewatch the series on DVD), the "Questions" seems to be modeled after the [http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/012.html#UQ "Unanswered Questions"] on the Lurker's guide. Now, we're not bound to that by any means, and the episode summary information that we provide is great. However, the "Questions" section seems to become more of a "Questions and Answers" or a "Questions and Speculation", or sometimes a "Questions and Terse Verbal Combat". Ideally I'd like to see some sort of a standard upheld to the questions section so that they would have uniform quality.

One possible suggestion (following the "Oppose, propose" principle), would be moving confirmed, canonical answers to the analysis or notes section. A question with an answer in a subsequent episode might remain, with a link to the episode that answers it. What I'm mainly referring removing to are questions that were answered with information from within that episode (or a prior episode, or the podcast). If the question has already been answered, it's not really an "unanswered question" for that episode.

I just hate seeing the animosity that can be generated from the Q&A process marring the main article space (rather than discussing it in the talk pages, or on a messageboard). Also, it's not that I want to stifle all speculation. I know that our "encyclopedic" standard for most articles can feel pretty restrictive to some. However I do want it to be clear to a new reader what sections are encyclopedic, and which sections may contain speculation. I'm not trying to single anybody out. I'm just trying to clarify the purpose of the section, and see what everybody feels. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:53, 13 March 2006 (CST)

: Lurker's Guide has always rocked my world, too!

: As to your points: as I recall, the B5LG's 'Unanswered Questions' section actually never changed once it was written (well, OK, maybe it got added to, but not subtracted from). The idea behind the section was, "These are the questions this episode raises and does not answer by itself." In a tight arc story like B5, it's useful to have a record of those even when the answers eventually show up in later episodes.

: My feelings run something like this:
# If a question is raised and not answered in the episode, it belongs in the Questions section on the encylopedic page.
# If a question is raised and someone else realises it's actually answered in the episode, it might make sense to add the answer after the question, but it probably makes more sense to move both the question and the answer to the Talk page.
# If a question is answered in a later episode, the analysis for that episode should note that the event hearkens back to an earlier open plot point, and perhaps the original page should be edited to point forward to the answer, but the answer itself should not be edited into the page for the episode that posed the question.
# Debates and discussion have no place on the encylopedic pages; only on the talk pages. So if there's any dispute, the whole thing should be moved over.

: I'm a fanboy, and I like occasionally delving into speculation as much as any other fanboy, but it belongs on the talk pages, not the encylopedic ones, IMO.
--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 12:04, 13 March 2006 (CST)

: Concur. Actually, when I tackled the questions portions of earlier episodes, I would alays post a link to the question's "answer". For instance, from "[[Water]]"'s page:

:*Why do the Cylons want to keep Helo on Caprica? ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II|Answer 1]], [[The Farm|Answer 2]])

: This presents a cleaner look than:

:*Question 1?
::* Possibility 1.
:::* Sub-Possibility/Retort
::* Possibility 2.

: Plus, if you will note, the questions section on the earlier eps is a lot cleaner and orderly than our most recent entries. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:04, 13 March 2006 (CST)
::I recognize part of that is the wiki-magic at work. The newest episode always gets a lot of traffic, and you end up with the "too many cooks" effect, to some extent. This will probably sort itself out in the long run, as people begin to whittle away and classify/sort/clean all the stuff that has been added. I was just thinking it might be a good idea to quantify this concept into the comment that goes at the beginning of the questions section in the Episode Guide template (so that people can ignore it, and things can continue the way they work anyway). Mostly I'm just glad that I'm not the only one. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:12, 13 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II/Archive2

2006-03-13T18:32:41Z

Stealthboy: /* We'll Be Back */

== The Cliffhanger ==

I'm betting that Baltar's little gift to the [[Demand Peace]] movement makes its way to ''Pegasus'' and is about to destroy or mortally damage the battlestar in this season closer. Mortally damaging it makes more sense to allow ''Galactica'' (and the show) to gather some of the new resources that ''Pegasus'' brought before it has to be removed from the picture. Perhaps, in coordination with a probable Cylon attack, ''Pegasus'' may end up doing a "[[The Living Legend, Part II|Commander Cain charge]]" at the start of Season 3. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:52, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quite drinking...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:02, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::Is it just me, or does the second season seem to be bouncing from cliffhanger to cliffhanger, with the in-between episodes being nothing but filler? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:08, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:::It isn't just you... Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quit sniffing glue. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:22, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::::I don't mind the "filler" episodes. I believe you need them to set up future stories down the road. I believe PEGASUS will stick around for one or two episodes next year(Gives them time to strip her down)....Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines!--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:36, 15 February 2006 (EST)
::::: I don't think the Pegasus is going anywhere... I do wonder what the rescue operation will look like though. I haven't quit anything this week... except maybe worrying. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]] 09:58, 13 March 2006 (CST)

There's no cliffhanger, really. The Cylons win, humanity is occupied and the ships of the fleet are essentially empty with everyone down on Cylon-occupied New Caprica. The show is completely different from here on out. Cloud Nine is gone (which from a production standpoint makes sense--- no need for a planet-like ship when they have an actual planet) and all the leads but Lee, Adama and possibly Sharon are on the planet, hoping not to be killed by their new Cylon overlords. It's awesome. Oh, girlBilly seems to be sticking around as a character as well. [[User:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]]

:You have no idea; that's just fanfic. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:11, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::Could one or the other of you please explain what that last enormous edit-and-reversion was all about? Numbertwelve, have you seen the episode in question? Are you passing on reports from other sources, and if so, can you identify them? Merv, are you familiar with a fanfic that resembles his description? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:18, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::Well, it sounds like he was just posting his own ''guesses/fanfic ideas'' without any basis on actual material, so I cleaned it up. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)
::::I believe that the info is coming from [http://greycoupon.livejournal.com/3808.html BIG SPOILERS]. Don't know the validity of it though.
:::::Based on the what I've read of the Part I summary, I'd say that the information was actually accurate. That said, I'm not sure this site really wants to post detailed episode summaries before the episode has actually aired anywhere, especially when we have no way of confirming the source.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:35, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: In all likelihood, numbertwelve's comments stem from [http://www.patriotresource.com/bg/insights/spoilers/season2b.html here]. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:24, 8 March 2006 (CST)

::::::: Judging by that picture, I think those spoilers might be right, though I seriously hope they are dead wrong, anyone else hope this? --[[User:LeobenConoy|LeobenConoy]] 02:30, 10 March 2006 (TST)

:::::::: It certainly would be a heck of a sharp turn for the series, but, y'know, I'm OK with that. RDM really kinda needs to keep making sharp turns to keep the series from falling too much into the established track of the Original Series, for one thing. For another thing, I like surprises :-) I don't want this story to become too predictable. Actually, when I look back over the two seasons to date, RDM et alia have not allowed us to settle into anything like a routine for more than a few episodes before they kick over the tables again. That's a good thing. That said, if the spoilers are in fact correct...it's going to be a long six months 'til we find out how the situation resolves itself...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:12, 9 March 2006 (CST)

::::::::: Well, actually, [[user:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]] was right! I don't know who he/she is, but (s)he knew what'll happen exactly in ''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'' Anyway, it's the best ep so far! --[[User:Nyiz|Nyiz]] 16:14, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== The Peace Proposal ==

I haven't actually seen "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]", yet (I don't have cable, so I'm basically watching via DVD as time allows), but reading the summary, I see no mention of the Cylon peace proposal in the story as aired. It looks as though the preliminary data for the episodes was somewhat misleading, and that the peace proposal won't come until Part II. The Part II article, however, still reflects the old information. Should this be changed now? Or just wait for Friday's airing and the full summary?--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:32, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Speechless ==
Holy crap they turned everything on its head. I can't think of a better way of stating the obvious. ONE YEAR LATER!?!?!? Crap. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 22:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Yep...and we'll have to wait about that frakkin' long to find out WTF happens next...:)
[[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 22:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Well, look at it this way - if they ever want to bring [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]] back due to chronology issues, they now have an excuse. Actually, I'm surprised they didn't have the character (if not the actor) doing a cameo in the schooltent.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|D]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I personally was asking, "Where's the kicker?" Well, nothing like a second Cylon occupation to do that for you. As for October...hell, they haven't even started shooting the season yet. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:32, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::You really have to find it pretty ironic that Baltar's fraked over the Colonies again. He gives Gina the bomb, fraks her, she blows up Cloud 9 (and Gods know how many ships she took with her in that blast) and Baltar forces everyone to colonize the plantet... and the Cylons find it because of the nuclear blast. How's that for a kicker? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Katee Sackhoff has to grow out her hair. She can't keep using that wig all season. Well, and the writers haven't figured out what the hell they're going to do now :P [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:06, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::I'm not sure when this episode was filmed, but she still has a month to go before they start shooting Season 3, according to SciFi. I'm sure Moore and friends have plenty of ideas to go with. The questions posted for this episode should give some possible ideas, if they even read this thing. :P --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
That was totally awesome. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:37, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I was on pins and needles the entire time. It was so good! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:56, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:: I'm just so happy that I have no idea what's going to happen next. What a fantastic finale. --[[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]] 1:48, 11 March 2006 (EST)

== Well Then... ==

Wasn't that something. I glanced over the rumors prior, but it has to be seen to get the real effect. That, and I was hoping they were dead wrong. --[[User:Michael|Michael]] 22:16, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought generally the execution of these spoilers was much better than my expections. --[[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 00:10, 11 March 2006 (EST)

== "Rampant speculation" re Starbuck/Conoy connection ==

I don't think that the ''analysis'' section is the place for something with little backing... at least currently.

: ''Although this is rampant speculation, given the warped obsession/relationship that Leoben has with Starbuck, is it possible that Starbuck's stolen egg cells from "[[The Farm]]" were fertilized with genetic material from the Leoben model to create a new Hybrid? The Cylons do seem to think she's "special".''

Anyone agree or disagree? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: To expand my point further, ''Conoy'' believed that Starbuck was special. Just because Conoy is a Cylon doesn't mean the ''Cylons'' share his belief. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

No arguements here. I've always been fuzzy on the exact parameters of the "analysis" section, however, this thought occurred to me when I remembered that A) They said that Starbuck's missing ovaries would be mentioned before the end of the season, B) It's going to be a major plot point in season 3.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:03, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: Well, in keeping with the original inspiration for the Wiki -- The Lurker's Guide to B5 -- the analysis section has always analyzed the episode. For instance, what the episode had to say, how that fit in to the grand tapestry, how that fit into real life, and things of that nature. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:12, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Long live the Lurkers guide! Best guide ever. There's also a B5 wiki being created (see my user page for the link). --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:25, 10 March 2006 (CST)

My speculation is that the reason Conoy is seeking out Kara Thrace has more to do with the events that took place with Anders, Caprica 6 and Sharon(1) in the episode downloaded...the thing with the dogtag. but we will find out in october I suppose.--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

== DubyaBaltar ==

I'd never put this in the actual wiki article, but does it strike anyone else who many jabs they're getting it at another ridiculously incompetent president? "I don't have to listen to the facts...I'm the president". etc. ''Remember, Remember the Fifth of November''.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: Though I don't think GWB has harems. Mr. Nice Gaius seems to have him beat there. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:11, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought it was a reference to Roslin and Adar's statements about "the nice thing about being President..." --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:13, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, Adar said that first. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Plus, Baltar was good friends with Adar prior to the attack. The womanizing was just good 'ol self-serving Baltar. And, when was Gaius ever nice? --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:28, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::See the dialogue section of [[Six Degrees of Separation]] for your answer Sgtpayne. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:31, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Just checked the page requested, and I'm not sure that's helping the argument. The statement is defensive in nature. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:37, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::::It's not an argument, it's an explanation as to why we're calling him "Mr. Nice Gaius". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:51, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I don't think that they are trying to Bush bash... If they were then Baltar would have been the one stealing the election. (I don't believe that Bush stole the election, but it is a common belief among Bush bashers.) Perhaps they are trying to comment on American elections in general and there are similarities, but I think the purpose is literary, not political. Oh, and definitely not article material- there is no way this could be unbiased. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]] 10:10, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Does anyone remember... ==

... that crack Cottle made to Cally regarding women talking * (Actually, the good Doctor said "Complain") even when their jaws are wired shut? If so, we should note it under the dialogue section and perhaps on Cottle's page (he seems to have a penchant for sexist dialogue). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:18, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:You know, Joe, I don't know why you point out "Cottle made a sexist remark here" the times that he does (Downloaded, etc.) I mean that's the type of character he is. I mean, we wouldn't list off "well, Archie Bunker did this sexist thing" in an ''All in the Family'' episode guide. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Good point. Still, since it is a part of his personality, I believe it should be noted appropriately. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:29, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Got it. On a side note, there are lots of ''really'' sexist things Cottle could have said about a woman who can't open her mouth, so maybe he should get some credit for holding back... --[[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 10:39, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::None of us, neither the show or any users here, had even had that implication at any time enter our minds. Complete non sequitor. Disgusting to bring up such crudeness, Mr.JohnH. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:38, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::I can't tell if you're being serious or not, here. Because '''I''' certainly had that thought enter my mind, and you can't possibly know what the writers were thinking...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:28, 13 March 2006 (CST)

==Source?==

"Tyrol's union speech alludes to Mario Savio's address during the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in 1964."-->Can I get confirmation on that?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:[http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mario_Savio This is confirmed]. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:34, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Thanks. Great that the show is so political.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:41, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:::I don't think it's political as much as it is human. This is [[Wikipedia: Naturalistic science fiction|"naturalistic" science fiction]], after all. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:56, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Gina's Scars==
We can clearly see that Gina's back is still badly scarred from her treatment on ''Pegasus'' in this episode. However, I seem to recall her back being completely healed in "Epiphanies". Can anybody confirm? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Er, they're on her lower/mid back, while when she was wearing the tank top, you could only see her upper shoulder blades. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:42, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Playa==
At the end of the episode (near the surrender), I thought I saw [[Playa Palacios|"Miss Exclusive"]], though it may have just been a similar-looking blonde. Can someone check this? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 11:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:She's not in the credits. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:03, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Survivor count==
There's a drop of 29 between part 1 and 2: "''A more reasonable explanation is that there was a late update in the survivor count that took into account those who died off-screen during the Cylon attack on the Pegasus in "[[The Captain's Hand]]". Soldiers who are killed are often listed as MIA (Missing in Action) until they can be confirmed as KIA (Killed in Action). In the aftermath of the attack on the Pegasus, it would have taken a while to determine the exact number of crewmen and pilots killed. Also, there were probably a number of crewmen who died from injuries afterwards. As a result, a delay in updating the survivor count is quite likely''"--->No. The survivor count at the beginning of ''Part 1'' would have accounted for these losses. Part 2 takes place weeks, maybe even 2 months past "Captain's Hand"; even "[[Downloaded]]" comes in before there. 2 episodes and about 2 months passed, and we saw no further losses from Captain's Hand beyond the 5 on screen. And the Survivor Count is omniscient. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:05, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: Once would assume that the Fleet has it share of black market thugs and suicidal people... Not everything has to be Cylon related. Just a thought. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:22, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and I have always argued as such...but then that makes the static pop count from end of Captain's Hand through LDYB part I unrealistic itself. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 16:24, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::Well, one would assume that people are reported as missing prior to being reported as dead. Hence the seemingly unrealistic count changes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:32, 11 March 2006 (CST)

::::Even though I STILL think those losses are most likely late figures from "[[The Captain's Hand]]" (I'm not going to argue about this), another possible reason for the drop could be the results of election-related riots/murders. Stuff like that happens. Either that or the writers just screwed up.--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 16:45, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::And, ultimately, that is the problem... it's all about '''thought''', not '''fact'''. Until we know for certain why these variances occur (and why they register when they do), we could think about it until our brains cry for more oxygen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:58, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Judging by our current standards and conventions, and just logic, no, it is impossible for these to be "left over" number from 3 full episodes ago. Think what you want, but don't add it back to the page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:49, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::::: Just keep in mind, the "omniscient" Survivor Count is controlled by the writers just like everything else. And writers do make mistakes occasionally. Besides what other plausible explanations are there?--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 22:41, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::Really? I had always assumed that it was controlled by mutant space monkeys. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:21, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Cloud Nine bodycount. ==

Am I going completely fuzzy-headed here, or is the fact that Cloud Nine was destroyed before the transition to New Caprica being completely overlooked.
''
*How many people died in the Cloud Nine explosion?
**The Cloud Nine explosion also destroyed ships near it. Given the stated size of the New Caprica population along with subtracting the minimal crew sizes needed to maintain the ships in orbit, you can estimate that approximately 3000 to 5000 people died.
***Actually, we have no idea how many people were still crewing the civilian ships in the Fleet when Galactica and Pegasus jumped away, so it could actually have been thousands less than that.''

The answers to the questions, as I remember what I saw, are completely irrelivant. Noone was colonizing the planet yet.
Or am I completely loosing my mind [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:09, 12 March 2006 (CST)
*No, you're quite sane. Admiral Adama had ordered the first teams to New Caprica just before the commercial break, Baltar's last night with Gina, the inauguration, and the blast. There probably wouldn't have been more than a handful of raptor teams on the surface at the time--not enough to make any appreciable dent in the population figures. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:51, 12 March 2006 (EST).
::I am a little confused as to what your asking, but I will try and clarify:
::The episode states that after a year, there are about 39,000 people on New Caprica. The Galactica and the Pegasus require about 5,000 crew between the two ships, but at the time of Baltars election, were only carrying about 4,000. However, it is made clear that the two battlestars are operating with skeleton crews - so lets say for the sake of arguement that thats 1/2 of normal, which would put the combined crews at 2,500. There are other ships in the defense fleet above New Caprica, looks to be about ten additional ships, if I remember correctly. Lets say they need 600 crew each (see [[The Fleet (RDM)]], but are also running with skeleton crews, which puts them at 10 x 600 = 6,000/2 = 3,000. Combine that with the battlestars crew, you get 5,500. Add that to 39,000 and you get 44,500. Compare with the pre-New Caprica pop of 49,000 and it looks like about 4,500 died in the Nuclear blast. So, no, the destuction of Cloud 9 was not overlooked, it was indeed factored into the New Caprican population. --[[User:Kraetos|Kraetos]] 23:30, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Where should this error go? ==
When we see it parked on the surface of New Caprica, [[Colonial One]] was missing the Colonial/presidential seal that we've seen before on its port side. Nobody would have scraped it off the hull. I know the people down there are desperate for resources, but ''paint chips''? --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:56, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:Well the real answer is that they crew just plain old forgot to put it in the model, but forcontinuity's sake, it could be hypothesized that someone discontent with the Baltar Administration scraped off the seal in the middle of the night as if to say 'this man isn't fit to have the presidential seal on his office/spaceship.' --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 13:18, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::I'd prefer to eschew the fanwankery and note it as the continuity glitch it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:28, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:::'Fanwankery'? It is completely plausible that what I said ''might'' have happened, so how can you conclude that it was a glitch. There are many ways paint like that could have come off. Perhaps when they painted the seal on Colonial One they used a paint not suitable for atmospheric re-entry and it got burned off. Maybe there is some sort of corrosive rain on the plannet that solubilizes lower quality paint. Perhaps Baltar didn't like the design on the seal. The point is that even though it was most likely a continuity glitch it is not ''nesscearily'' one. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::::[[Wikipedia:Fanwank|Fanwank]]. It's my new favorite word. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:: Eh, people... can we stop analyzing why the seal isn't on ''Colonial One''? It's more than likely a CGI glitch -- nothing more. Anything else is just unhealthy obsession. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:43, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== 6's credits voiceover ==
Should it be part of this episode? It seems that there is no discussion of it here or anywhere else. -- [[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 14:426, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:That was a commercial for Season 3, not part of this episode. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 13:54, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Firefly connection ==

Greenleaf and Persephone; both were planets in Firefly. I noticed the Greenleaf back in Sacrifice, but this episode was the first time that I saw or heard Persephone. It's a nice little homage to Firefly, if it was even on purpose. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 15:20, 12 March 2006 (CST)

:No. You are grasping at straws. "Persephone" is a very generic, widely known Greco-Roman type name, and we only see it on a list briefly. As for "Greenleaf", it has been mentioned like 3 times in dialog, but this is in fact a reference to Legolas from Lord of the Rings (both Firefly and Lord of the Rings appear to have named something after Legolas, independently of each other). However, that doesn't mean we should make a note saying "wow, both Firefly and BSG have a planet named Greenleaf"...because literally HUNDREDS of other books and tv shows have named stuff in homage to LOTR. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== We'll Be Back ==

Before the fleet jumps away, Adm. Adama announces, in McArthuresque fashion, that "We'll be back." So, I was floored to
notice on the podcast for this episode (which I just got around to listening to) that Ron Moore offhandedly mentioned that Edward James Olmos would not be returning for season three. Did anyone else catch that? It was around 25 minutes into the podcast.
--[[User:TomP|TomP]] 1:22, 13 March 2006 (EST)

:It was a JOKE. They were DRUNK. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:32, 13 March 2006 (CST)

::Also, the Chief and Colonel Tigh got married offscreen in this episode, and Season 3 starts off 5 years in the future ;) --[[Bahamut|Bahamut]] 03:22, 13 March 2006 (CST)

:::But they did not say this but about Olmos in the same manner or even quite the same time-frame. Also, they were clearly joking about the "CGI Adama", but not necessarily about Olmos not coming back. I have listened to this segment a few times now... It doesn't strike me as a joke.

== Caprica Six or Gina? ==

The article says:

Are the Six and Eight that Baltar surrendered to Caprica-Six and Galactica-Sharon?
* Judging from Six's reaction to Baltar, almost definitely.

However, couldn't it actually be Gina, and not Caprica-Six? From what we've seen in ''Downloaded'', I doubt the "war heroes" would join the Cylon fleet, let alone try to enslave humanity. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 08:46, 13 March 2006 (CST)

* Gina was direclty proximate to a thermonuclear explosion, and there's no Resurrection Ship currently afloat. Chances are that Gina's instance of Number Six will not be back.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:13, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Questions Section ==
It seems like we have a problem with the "Questions" section of the episode guides. Modeled after the Lurker's Guide to B5 (a resource that I STILL use, whenever I rewatch the series on DVD), the "Questions" seems to be modeled after the [http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/012.html#UQ "Unanswered Questions"] on the Lurker's guide. Now, we're not bound to that by any means, and the episode summary information that we provide is great. However, the "Questions" section seems to become more of a "Questions and Answers" or a "Questions and Speculation", or sometimes a "Questions and Terse Verbal Combat". Ideally I'd like to see some sort of a standard upheld to the questions section so that they would have uniform quality.

One possible suggestion (following the "Oppose, propose" principle), would be moving confirmed, canonical answers to the analysis or notes section. A question with an answer in a subsequent episode might remain, with a link to the episode that answers it. What I'm mainly referring removing to are questions that were answered with information from within that episode (or a prior episode, or the podcast). If the question has already been answered, it's not really an "unanswered question" for that episode.

I just hate seeing the animosity that can be generated from the Q&A process marring the main article space (rather than discussing it in the talk pages, or on a messageboard). Also, it's not that I want to stifle all speculation. I know that our "encyclopedic" standard for most articles can feel pretty restrictive to some. However I do want it to be clear to a new reader what sections are encyclopedic, and which sections may contain speculation. I'm not trying to single anybody out. I'm just trying to clarify the purpose of the section, and see what everybody feels. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:53, 13 March 2006 (CST)

: Lurker's Guide has always rocked my world, too!

: As to your points: as I recall, the B5LG's 'Unanswered Questions' section actually never changed once it was written (well, OK, maybe it got added to, but not subtracted from). The idea behind the section was, "These are the questions this episode raises and does not answer by itself." In a tight arc story like B5, it's useful to have a record of those even when the answers eventually show up in later episodes.

: My feelings run something like this:
# If a question is raised and not answered in the episode, it belongs in the Questions section on the encylopedic page.
# If a question is raised and someone else realises it's actually answered in the episode, it might make sense to add the answer after the question, but it probably makes more sense to move both the question and the answer to the Talk page.
# If a question is answered in a later episode, the analysis for that episode should note that the event hearkens back to an earlier open plot point, and perhaps the original page should be edited to point forward to the answer, but the answer itself should not be edited into the page for the episode that posed the question.
# Debates and discussion have no place on the encylopedic pages; only on the talk pages. So if there's any dispute, the whole thing should be moved over.

: I'm a fanboy, and I like occasionally delving into speculation as much as any other fanboy, but it belongs on the talk pages, not the encylopedic ones, IMO.
--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 12:04, 13 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II/Archive2

2006-03-13T18:24:44Z

Stealthboy: /* Speechless */

== The Cliffhanger ==

I'm betting that Baltar's little gift to the [[Demand Peace]] movement makes its way to ''Pegasus'' and is about to destroy or mortally damage the battlestar in this season closer. Mortally damaging it makes more sense to allow ''Galactica'' (and the show) to gather some of the new resources that ''Pegasus'' brought before it has to be removed from the picture. Perhaps, in coordination with a probable Cylon attack, ''Pegasus'' may end up doing a "[[The Living Legend, Part II|Commander Cain charge]]" at the start of Season 3. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:52, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quite drinking...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:02, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::Is it just me, or does the second season seem to be bouncing from cliffhanger to cliffhanger, with the in-between episodes being nothing but filler? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:08, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:::It isn't just you... Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quit sniffing glue. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:22, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::::I don't mind the "filler" episodes. I believe you need them to set up future stories down the road. I believe PEGASUS will stick around for one or two episodes next year(Gives them time to strip her down)....Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines!--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:36, 15 February 2006 (EST)
::::: I don't think the Pegasus is going anywhere... I do wonder what the rescue operation will look like though. I haven't quit anything this week... except maybe worrying. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]] 09:58, 13 March 2006 (CST)

There's no cliffhanger, really. The Cylons win, humanity is occupied and the ships of the fleet are essentially empty with everyone down on Cylon-occupied New Caprica. The show is completely different from here on out. Cloud Nine is gone (which from a production standpoint makes sense--- no need for a planet-like ship when they have an actual planet) and all the leads but Lee, Adama and possibly Sharon are on the planet, hoping not to be killed by their new Cylon overlords. It's awesome. Oh, girlBilly seems to be sticking around as a character as well. [[User:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]]

:You have no idea; that's just fanfic. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:11, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::Could one or the other of you please explain what that last enormous edit-and-reversion was all about? Numbertwelve, have you seen the episode in question? Are you passing on reports from other sources, and if so, can you identify them? Merv, are you familiar with a fanfic that resembles his description? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:18, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::Well, it sounds like he was just posting his own ''guesses/fanfic ideas'' without any basis on actual material, so I cleaned it up. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)
::::I believe that the info is coming from [http://greycoupon.livejournal.com/3808.html BIG SPOILERS]. Don't know the validity of it though.
:::::Based on the what I've read of the Part I summary, I'd say that the information was actually accurate. That said, I'm not sure this site really wants to post detailed episode summaries before the episode has actually aired anywhere, especially when we have no way of confirming the source.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:35, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: In all likelihood, numbertwelve's comments stem from [http://www.patriotresource.com/bg/insights/spoilers/season2b.html here]. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:24, 8 March 2006 (CST)

::::::: Judging by that picture, I think those spoilers might be right, though I seriously hope they are dead wrong, anyone else hope this? --[[User:LeobenConoy|LeobenConoy]] 02:30, 10 March 2006 (TST)

:::::::: It certainly would be a heck of a sharp turn for the series, but, y'know, I'm OK with that. RDM really kinda needs to keep making sharp turns to keep the series from falling too much into the established track of the Original Series, for one thing. For another thing, I like surprises :-) I don't want this story to become too predictable. Actually, when I look back over the two seasons to date, RDM et alia have not allowed us to settle into anything like a routine for more than a few episodes before they kick over the tables again. That's a good thing. That said, if the spoilers are in fact correct...it's going to be a long six months 'til we find out how the situation resolves itself...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:12, 9 March 2006 (CST)

::::::::: Well, actually, [[user:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]] was right! I don't know who he/she is, but (s)he knew what'll happen exactly in ''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'' Anyway, it's the best ep so far! --[[User:Nyiz|Nyiz]] 16:14, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== The Peace Proposal ==

I haven't actually seen "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]", yet (I don't have cable, so I'm basically watching via DVD as time allows), but reading the summary, I see no mention of the Cylon peace proposal in the story as aired. It looks as though the preliminary data for the episodes was somewhat misleading, and that the peace proposal won't come until Part II. The Part II article, however, still reflects the old information. Should this be changed now? Or just wait for Friday's airing and the full summary?--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:32, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Speechless ==
Holy crap they turned everything on its head. I can't think of a better way of stating the obvious. ONE YEAR LATER!?!?!? Crap. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 22:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Yep...and we'll have to wait about that frakkin' long to find out WTF happens next...:)
[[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 22:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Well, look at it this way - if they ever want to bring [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]] back due to chronology issues, they now have an excuse. Actually, I'm surprised they didn't have the character (if not the actor) doing a cameo in the schooltent.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|D]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I personally was asking, "Where's the kicker?" Well, nothing like a second Cylon occupation to do that for you. As for October...hell, they haven't even started shooting the season yet. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:32, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::You really have to find it pretty ironic that Baltar's fraked over the Colonies again. He gives Gina the bomb, fraks her, she blows up Cloud 9 (and Gods know how many ships she took with her in that blast) and Baltar forces everyone to colonize the plantet... and the Cylons find it because of the nuclear blast. How's that for a kicker? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Katee Sackhoff has to grow out her hair. She can't keep using that wig all season. Well, and the writers haven't figured out what the hell they're going to do now :P [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:06, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::I'm not sure when this episode was filmed, but she still has a month to go before they start shooting Season 3, according to SciFi. I'm sure Moore and friends have plenty of ideas to go with. The questions posted for this episode should give some possible ideas, if they even read this thing. :P --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
That was totally awesome. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:37, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I was on pins and needles the entire time. It was so good! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:56, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:: I'm just so happy that I have no idea what's going to happen next. What a fantastic finale. --[[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]] 1:48, 11 March 2006 (EST)

== Well Then... ==

Wasn't that something. I glanced over the rumors prior, but it has to be seen to get the real effect. That, and I was hoping they were dead wrong. --[[User:Michael|Michael]] 22:16, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought generally the execution of these spoilers was much better than my expections. --[[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 00:10, 11 March 2006 (EST)

== "Rampant speculation" re Starbuck/Conoy connection ==

I don't think that the ''analysis'' section is the place for something with little backing... at least currently.

: ''Although this is rampant speculation, given the warped obsession/relationship that Leoben has with Starbuck, is it possible that Starbuck's stolen egg cells from "[[The Farm]]" were fertilized with genetic material from the Leoben model to create a new Hybrid? The Cylons do seem to think she's "special".''

Anyone agree or disagree? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: To expand my point further, ''Conoy'' believed that Starbuck was special. Just because Conoy is a Cylon doesn't mean the ''Cylons'' share his belief. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

No arguements here. I've always been fuzzy on the exact parameters of the "analysis" section, however, this thought occurred to me when I remembered that A) They said that Starbuck's missing ovaries would be mentioned before the end of the season, B) It's going to be a major plot point in season 3.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:03, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: Well, in keeping with the original inspiration for the Wiki -- The Lurker's Guide to B5 -- the analysis section has always analyzed the episode. For instance, what the episode had to say, how that fit in to the grand tapestry, how that fit into real life, and things of that nature. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:12, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Long live the Lurkers guide! Best guide ever. There's also a B5 wiki being created (see my user page for the link). --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:25, 10 March 2006 (CST)

My speculation is that the reason Conoy is seeking out Kara Thrace has more to do with the events that took place with Anders, Caprica 6 and Sharon(1) in the episode downloaded...the thing with the dogtag. but we will find out in october I suppose.--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

== DubyaBaltar ==

I'd never put this in the actual wiki article, but does it strike anyone else who many jabs they're getting it at another ridiculously incompetent president? "I don't have to listen to the facts...I'm the president". etc. ''Remember, Remember the Fifth of November''.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: Though I don't think GWB has harems. Mr. Nice Gaius seems to have him beat there. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:11, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought it was a reference to Roslin and Adar's statements about "the nice thing about being President..." --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:13, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, Adar said that first. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Plus, Baltar was good friends with Adar prior to the attack. The womanizing was just good 'ol self-serving Baltar. And, when was Gaius ever nice? --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:28, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::See the dialogue section of [[Six Degrees of Separation]] for your answer Sgtpayne. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:31, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Just checked the page requested, and I'm not sure that's helping the argument. The statement is defensive in nature. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:37, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::::It's not an argument, it's an explanation as to why we're calling him "Mr. Nice Gaius". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:51, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I don't think that they are trying to Bush bash... If they were then Baltar would have been the one stealing the election. (I don't believe that Bush stole the election, but it is a common belief among Bush bashers.) Perhaps they are trying to comment on American elections in general and there are similarities, but I think the purpose is literary, not political. Oh, and definitely not article material- there is no way this could be unbiased. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]] 10:10, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Does anyone remember... ==

... that crack Cottle made to Cally regarding women talking * (Actually, the good Doctor said "Complain") even when their jaws are wired shut? If so, we should note it under the dialogue section and perhaps on Cottle's page (he seems to have a penchant for sexist dialogue). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:18, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:You know, Joe, I don't know why you point out "Cottle made a sexist remark here" the times that he does (Downloaded, etc.) I mean that's the type of character he is. I mean, we wouldn't list off "well, Archie Bunker did this sexist thing" in an ''All in the Family'' episode guide. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Good point. Still, since it is a part of his personality, I believe it should be noted appropriately. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:29, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Got it. On a side note, there are lots of ''really'' sexist things Cottle could have said about a woman who can't open her mouth, so maybe he should get some credit for holding back... --[[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 10:39, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::None of us, neither the show or any users here, had even had that implication at any time enter our minds. Complete non sequitor. Disgusting to bring up such crudeness, Mr.JohnH. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:38, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::I can't tell if you're being serious or not, here. Because '''I''' certainly had that thought enter my mind, and you can't possibly know what the writers were thinking...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:28, 13 March 2006 (CST)

==Source?==

"Tyrol's union speech alludes to Mario Savio's address during the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in 1964."-->Can I get confirmation on that?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:[http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mario_Savio This is confirmed]. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:34, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Thanks. Great that the show is so political.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:41, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:::I don't think it's political as much as it is human. This is [[Wikipedia: Naturalistic science fiction|"naturalistic" science fiction]], after all. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:56, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Gina's Scars==
We can clearly see that Gina's back is still badly scarred from her treatment on ''Pegasus'' in this episode. However, I seem to recall her back being completely healed in "Epiphanies". Can anybody confirm? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Er, they're on her lower/mid back, while when she was wearing the tank top, you could only see her upper shoulder blades. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:42, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Playa==
At the end of the episode (near the surrender), I thought I saw [[Playa Palacios|"Miss Exclusive"]], though it may have just been a similar-looking blonde. Can someone check this? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 11:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:She's not in the credits. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:03, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Survivor count==
There's a drop of 29 between part 1 and 2: "''A more reasonable explanation is that there was a late update in the survivor count that took into account those who died off-screen during the Cylon attack on the Pegasus in "[[The Captain's Hand]]". Soldiers who are killed are often listed as MIA (Missing in Action) until they can be confirmed as KIA (Killed in Action). In the aftermath of the attack on the Pegasus, it would have taken a while to determine the exact number of crewmen and pilots killed. Also, there were probably a number of crewmen who died from injuries afterwards. As a result, a delay in updating the survivor count is quite likely''"--->No. The survivor count at the beginning of ''Part 1'' would have accounted for these losses. Part 2 takes place weeks, maybe even 2 months past "Captain's Hand"; even "[[Downloaded]]" comes in before there. 2 episodes and about 2 months passed, and we saw no further losses from Captain's Hand beyond the 5 on screen. And the Survivor Count is omniscient. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:05, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: Once would assume that the Fleet has it share of black market thugs and suicidal people... Not everything has to be Cylon related. Just a thought. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:22, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and I have always argued as such...but then that makes the static pop count from end of Captain's Hand through LDYB part I unrealistic itself. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 16:24, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::Well, one would assume that people are reported as missing prior to being reported as dead. Hence the seemingly unrealistic count changes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:32, 11 March 2006 (CST)

::::Even though I STILL think those losses are most likely late figures from "[[The Captain's Hand]]" (I'm not going to argue about this), another possible reason for the drop could be the results of election-related riots/murders. Stuff like that happens. Either that or the writers just screwed up.--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 16:45, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::And, ultimately, that is the problem... it's all about '''thought''', not '''fact'''. Until we know for certain why these variances occur (and why they register when they do), we could think about it until our brains cry for more oxygen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:58, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Judging by our current standards and conventions, and just logic, no, it is impossible for these to be "left over" number from 3 full episodes ago. Think what you want, but don't add it back to the page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:49, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::::: Just keep in mind, the "omniscient" Survivor Count is controlled by the writers just like everything else. And writers do make mistakes occasionally. Besides what other plausible explanations are there?--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 22:41, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::Really? I had always assumed that it was controlled by mutant space monkeys. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:21, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Cloud Nine bodycount. ==

Am I going completely fuzzy-headed here, or is the fact that Cloud Nine was destroyed before the transition to New Caprica being completely overlooked.
''
*How many people died in the Cloud Nine explosion?
**The Cloud Nine explosion also destroyed ships near it. Given the stated size of the New Caprica population along with subtracting the minimal crew sizes needed to maintain the ships in orbit, you can estimate that approximately 3000 to 5000 people died.
***Actually, we have no idea how many people were still crewing the civilian ships in the Fleet when Galactica and Pegasus jumped away, so it could actually have been thousands less than that.''

The answers to the questions, as I remember what I saw, are completely irrelivant. Noone was colonizing the planet yet.
Or am I completely loosing my mind [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:09, 12 March 2006 (CST)
*No, you're quite sane. Admiral Adama had ordered the first teams to New Caprica just before the commercial break, Baltar's last night with Gina, the inauguration, and the blast. There probably wouldn't have been more than a handful of raptor teams on the surface at the time--not enough to make any appreciable dent in the population figures. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:51, 12 March 2006 (EST).
::I am a little confused as to what your asking, but I will try and clarify:
::The episode states that after a year, there are about 39,000 people on New Caprica. The Galactica and the Pegasus require about 5,000 crew between the two ships, but at the time of Baltars election, were only carrying about 4,000. However, it is made clear that the two battlestars are operating with skeleton crews - so lets say for the sake of arguement that thats 1/2 of normal, which would put the combined crews at 2,500. There are other ships in the defense fleet above New Caprica, looks to be about ten additional ships, if I remember correctly. Lets say they need 600 crew each (see [[The Fleet (RDM)]], but are also running with skeleton crews, which puts them at 10 x 600 = 6,000/2 = 3,000. Combine that with the battlestars crew, you get 5,500. Add that to 39,000 and you get 44,500. Compare with the pre-New Caprica pop of 49,000 and it looks like about 4,500 died in the Nuclear blast. So, no, the destuction of Cloud 9 was not overlooked, it was indeed factored into the New Caprican population. --[[User:Kraetos|Kraetos]] 23:30, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Where should this error go? ==
When we see it parked on the surface of New Caprica, [[Colonial One]] was missing the Colonial/presidential seal that we've seen before on its port side. Nobody would have scraped it off the hull. I know the people down there are desperate for resources, but ''paint chips''? --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:56, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:Well the real answer is that they crew just plain old forgot to put it in the model, but forcontinuity's sake, it could be hypothesized that someone discontent with the Baltar Administration scraped off the seal in the middle of the night as if to say 'this man isn't fit to have the presidential seal on his office/spaceship.' --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 13:18, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::I'd prefer to eschew the fanwankery and note it as the continuity glitch it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:28, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:::'Fanwankery'? It is completely plausible that what I said ''might'' have happened, so how can you conclude that it was a glitch. There are many ways paint like that could have come off. Perhaps when they painted the seal on Colonial One they used a paint not suitable for atmospheric re-entry and it got burned off. Maybe there is some sort of corrosive rain on the plannet that solubilizes lower quality paint. Perhaps Baltar didn't like the design on the seal. The point is that even though it was most likely a continuity glitch it is not ''nesscearily'' one. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::::[[Wikipedia:Fanwank|Fanwank]]. It's my new favorite word. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:: Eh, people... can we stop analyzing why the seal isn't on ''Colonial One''? It's more than likely a CGI glitch -- nothing more. Anything else is just unhealthy obsession. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:43, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== 6's credits voiceover ==
Should it be part of this episode? It seems that there is no discussion of it here or anywhere else. -- [[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 14:426, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:That was a commercial for Season 3, not part of this episode. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 13:54, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Firefly connection ==

Greenleaf and Persephone; both were planets in Firefly. I noticed the Greenleaf back in Sacrifice, but this episode was the first time that I saw or heard Persephone. It's a nice little homage to Firefly, if it was even on purpose. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 15:20, 12 March 2006 (CST)

:No. You are grasping at straws. "Persephone" is a very generic, widely known Greco-Roman type name, and we only see it on a list briefly. As for "Greenleaf", it has been mentioned like 3 times in dialog, but this is in fact a reference to Legolas from Lord of the Rings (both Firefly and Lord of the Rings appear to have named something after Legolas, independently of each other). However, that doesn't mean we should make a note saying "wow, both Firefly and BSG have a planet named Greenleaf"...because literally HUNDREDS of other books and tv shows have named stuff in homage to LOTR. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== We'll Be Back ==

Before the fleet jumps away, Adm. Adama announces, in McArthuresque fashion, that "We'll be back." So, I was floored to
notice on the podcast for this episode (which I just got around to listening to) that Ron Moore offhandedly mentioned that Edward James Olmos would not be returning for season three. Did anyone else catch that? It was around 25 minutes into the podcast.
--[[User:TomP|TomP]] 1:22, 13 March 2006 (EST)

:It was a JOKE. They were DRUNK. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:32, 13 March 2006 (CST)

::Also, the Chief and Colonel Tigh got married offscreen in this episode, and Season 3 starts off 5 years in the future ;) --[[Bahamut|Bahamut]] 03:22, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Caprica Six or Gina? ==

The article says:

Are the Six and Eight that Baltar surrendered to Caprica-Six and Galactica-Sharon?
* Judging from Six's reaction to Baltar, almost definitely.

However, couldn't it actually be Gina, and not Caprica-Six? From what we've seen in ''Downloaded'', I doubt the "war heroes" would join the Cylon fleet, let alone try to enslave humanity. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 08:46, 13 March 2006 (CST)

* Gina was direclty proximate to a thermonuclear explosion, and there's no Resurrection Ship currently afloat. Chances are that Gina's instance of Number Six will not be back.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:13, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Questions Section ==
It seems like we have a problem with the "Questions" section of the episode guides. Modeled after the Lurker's Guide to B5 (a resource that I STILL use, whenever I rewatch the series on DVD), the "Questions" seems to be modeled after the [http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/012.html#UQ "Unanswered Questions"] on the Lurker's guide. Now, we're not bound to that by any means, and the episode summary information that we provide is great. However, the "Questions" section seems to become more of a "Questions and Answers" or a "Questions and Speculation", or sometimes a "Questions and Terse Verbal Combat". Ideally I'd like to see some sort of a standard upheld to the questions section so that they would have uniform quality.

One possible suggestion (following the "Oppose, propose" principle), would be moving confirmed, canonical answers to the analysis or notes section. A question with an answer in a subsequent episode might remain, with a link to the episode that answers it. What I'm mainly referring removing to are questions that were answered with information from within that episode (or a prior episode, or the podcast). If the question has already been answered, it's not really an "unanswered question" for that episode.

I just hate seeing the animosity that can be generated from the Q&A process marring the main article space (rather than discussing it in the talk pages, or on a messageboard). Also, it's not that I want to stifle all speculation. I know that our "encyclopedic" standard for most articles can feel pretty restrictive to some. However I do want it to be clear to a new reader what sections are encyclopedic, and which sections may contain speculation. I'm not trying to single anybody out. I'm just trying to clarify the purpose of the section, and see what everybody feels. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:53, 13 March 2006 (CST)

: Lurker's Guide has always rocked my world, too!

: As to your points: as I recall, the B5LG's 'Unanswered Questions' section actually never changed once it was written (well, OK, maybe it got added to, but not subtracted from). The idea behind the section was, "These are the questions this episode raises and does not answer by itself." In a tight arc story like B5, it's useful to have a record of those even when the answers eventually show up in later episodes.

: My feelings run something like this:
# If a question is raised and not answered in the episode, it belongs in the Questions section on the encylopedic page.
# If a question is raised and someone else realises it's actually answered in the episode, it might make sense to add the answer after the question, but it probably makes more sense to move both the question and the answer to the Talk page.
# If a question is answered in a later episode, the analysis for that episode should note that the event hearkens back to an earlier open plot point, and perhaps the original page should be edited to point forward to the answer, but the answer itself should not be edited into the page for the episode that posed the question.
# Debates and discussion have no place on the encylopedic pages; only on the talk pages. So if there's any dispute, the whole thing should be moved over.

: I'm a fanboy, and I like occasionally delving into speculation as much as any other fanboy, but it belongs on the talk pages, not the encylopedic ones, IMO.
--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 12:04, 13 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II/Archive2

2006-03-13T18:24:07Z

Stealthboy: /* Speechless */

== The Cliffhanger ==

I'm betting that Baltar's little gift to the [[Demand Peace]] movement makes its way to ''Pegasus'' and is about to destroy or mortally damage the battlestar in this season closer. Mortally damaging it makes more sense to allow ''Galactica'' (and the show) to gather some of the new resources that ''Pegasus'' brought before it has to be removed from the picture. Perhaps, in coordination with a probable Cylon attack, ''Pegasus'' may end up doing a "[[The Living Legend, Part II|Commander Cain charge]]" at the start of Season 3. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:52, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quite drinking...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:02, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::Is it just me, or does the second season seem to be bouncing from cliffhanger to cliffhanger, with the in-between episodes being nothing but filler? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:08, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:::It isn't just you... Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quit sniffing glue. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:22, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::::I don't mind the "filler" episodes. I believe you need them to set up future stories down the road. I believe PEGASUS will stick around for one or two episodes next year(Gives them time to strip her down)....Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines!--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:36, 15 February 2006 (EST)
::::: I don't think the Pegasus is going anywhere... I do wonder what the rescue operation will look like though. I haven't quit anything this week... except maybe worrying. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]] 09:58, 13 March 2006 (CST)

There's no cliffhanger, really. The Cylons win, humanity is occupied and the ships of the fleet are essentially empty with everyone down on Cylon-occupied New Caprica. The show is completely different from here on out. Cloud Nine is gone (which from a production standpoint makes sense--- no need for a planet-like ship when they have an actual planet) and all the leads but Lee, Adama and possibly Sharon are on the planet, hoping not to be killed by their new Cylon overlords. It's awesome. Oh, girlBilly seems to be sticking around as a character as well. [[User:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]]

:You have no idea; that's just fanfic. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:11, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::Could one or the other of you please explain what that last enormous edit-and-reversion was all about? Numbertwelve, have you seen the episode in question? Are you passing on reports from other sources, and if so, can you identify them? Merv, are you familiar with a fanfic that resembles his description? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:18, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::Well, it sounds like he was just posting his own ''guesses/fanfic ideas'' without any basis on actual material, so I cleaned it up. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)
::::I believe that the info is coming from [http://greycoupon.livejournal.com/3808.html BIG SPOILERS]. Don't know the validity of it though.
:::::Based on the what I've read of the Part I summary, I'd say that the information was actually accurate. That said, I'm not sure this site really wants to post detailed episode summaries before the episode has actually aired anywhere, especially when we have no way of confirming the source.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:35, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: In all likelihood, numbertwelve's comments stem from [http://www.patriotresource.com/bg/insights/spoilers/season2b.html here]. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:24, 8 March 2006 (CST)

::::::: Judging by that picture, I think those spoilers might be right, though I seriously hope they are dead wrong, anyone else hope this? --[[User:LeobenConoy|LeobenConoy]] 02:30, 10 March 2006 (TST)

:::::::: It certainly would be a heck of a sharp turn for the series, but, y'know, I'm OK with that. RDM really kinda needs to keep making sharp turns to keep the series from falling too much into the established track of the Original Series, for one thing. For another thing, I like surprises :-) I don't want this story to become too predictable. Actually, when I look back over the two seasons to date, RDM et alia have not allowed us to settle into anything like a routine for more than a few episodes before they kick over the tables again. That's a good thing. That said, if the spoilers are in fact correct...it's going to be a long six months 'til we find out how the situation resolves itself...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:12, 9 March 2006 (CST)

::::::::: Well, actually, [[user:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]] was right! I don't know who he/she is, but (s)he knew what'll happen exactly in ''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'' Anyway, it's the best ep so far! --[[User:Nyiz|Nyiz]] 16:14, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== The Peace Proposal ==

I haven't actually seen "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]", yet (I don't have cable, so I'm basically watching via DVD as time allows), but reading the summary, I see no mention of the Cylon peace proposal in the story as aired. It looks as though the preliminary data for the episodes was somewhat misleading, and that the peace proposal won't come until Part II. The Part II article, however, still reflects the old information. Should this be changed now? Or just wait for Friday's airing and the full summary?--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:32, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Speechless ==
Holy crap they turned everything on its head. I can't think of a better way of stating the obvious. ONE YEAR LATER!?!?!? Crap. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 22:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Yep...and we'll have to wait about that frakkin' long to find out WTF happens next...:)
[[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 22:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Well, look at it this way - if they ever want to bring [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]] back due to chronology issues, they now have an excuse. Actually, I'm surprised they didn't have the character (if not the actor) doing a cameo in the schooltent.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|D]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I personally was asking, "Where's the kicker?" Well, nothing like a second Cylon occupation to do that for you. As for October...hell, they haven't even started shooting the season yet. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:32, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::You really have to find it pretty ironic that Baltar's fraked over the Colonies again. He gives Gina the bomb, fraks her, she blows up Cloud 9 (and Gods know how many ships she took with her in that blast) and Baltar forces everyone to colonize the plantet... and the Cylons find it because of the nuclear blast. How's that for a kicker? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Katee Sackhoff has to grow out her hair. She can't keep using that wig all season. Well, and the writers haven't figured out what the hell they're going to do now :P [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:06, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::I'm not sure when this episode was filmed, but she still has a month to go before they start shooting Season 3, according to SciFi. I'm sure Moore and friends have plenty of ideas to go with. The questions posted for this episode should give some possible ideas, if they even read this thing. :P --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
That was totally awesome. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:37, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I was on pins and needles the entire time. It was so good! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:56, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:: I'm just so happy that I have no idea what's going to happen next. What a fantastic finale.

== Well Then... ==

Wasn't that something. I glanced over the rumors prior, but it has to be seen to get the real effect. That, and I was hoping they were dead wrong. --[[User:Michael|Michael]] 22:16, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought generally the execution of these spoilers was much better than my expections. --[[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 00:10, 11 March 2006 (EST)

== "Rampant speculation" re Starbuck/Conoy connection ==

I don't think that the ''analysis'' section is the place for something with little backing... at least currently.

: ''Although this is rampant speculation, given the warped obsession/relationship that Leoben has with Starbuck, is it possible that Starbuck's stolen egg cells from "[[The Farm]]" were fertilized with genetic material from the Leoben model to create a new Hybrid? The Cylons do seem to think she's "special".''

Anyone agree or disagree? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: To expand my point further, ''Conoy'' believed that Starbuck was special. Just because Conoy is a Cylon doesn't mean the ''Cylons'' share his belief. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

No arguements here. I've always been fuzzy on the exact parameters of the "analysis" section, however, this thought occurred to me when I remembered that A) They said that Starbuck's missing ovaries would be mentioned before the end of the season, B) It's going to be a major plot point in season 3.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:03, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: Well, in keeping with the original inspiration for the Wiki -- The Lurker's Guide to B5 -- the analysis section has always analyzed the episode. For instance, what the episode had to say, how that fit in to the grand tapestry, how that fit into real life, and things of that nature. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:12, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Long live the Lurkers guide! Best guide ever. There's also a B5 wiki being created (see my user page for the link). --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:25, 10 March 2006 (CST)

My speculation is that the reason Conoy is seeking out Kara Thrace has more to do with the events that took place with Anders, Caprica 6 and Sharon(1) in the episode downloaded...the thing with the dogtag. but we will find out in october I suppose.--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

== DubyaBaltar ==

I'd never put this in the actual wiki article, but does it strike anyone else who many jabs they're getting it at another ridiculously incompetent president? "I don't have to listen to the facts...I'm the president". etc. ''Remember, Remember the Fifth of November''.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: Though I don't think GWB has harems. Mr. Nice Gaius seems to have him beat there. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:11, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought it was a reference to Roslin and Adar's statements about "the nice thing about being President..." --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:13, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, Adar said that first. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Plus, Baltar was good friends with Adar prior to the attack. The womanizing was just good 'ol self-serving Baltar. And, when was Gaius ever nice? --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:28, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::See the dialogue section of [[Six Degrees of Separation]] for your answer Sgtpayne. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:31, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Just checked the page requested, and I'm not sure that's helping the argument. The statement is defensive in nature. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:37, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::::It's not an argument, it's an explanation as to why we're calling him "Mr. Nice Gaius". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:51, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I don't think that they are trying to Bush bash... If they were then Baltar would have been the one stealing the election. (I don't believe that Bush stole the election, but it is a common belief among Bush bashers.) Perhaps they are trying to comment on American elections in general and there are similarities, but I think the purpose is literary, not political. Oh, and definitely not article material- there is no way this could be unbiased. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]] 10:10, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Does anyone remember... ==

... that crack Cottle made to Cally regarding women talking * (Actually, the good Doctor said "Complain") even when their jaws are wired shut? If so, we should note it under the dialogue section and perhaps on Cottle's page (he seems to have a penchant for sexist dialogue). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:18, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:You know, Joe, I don't know why you point out "Cottle made a sexist remark here" the times that he does (Downloaded, etc.) I mean that's the type of character he is. I mean, we wouldn't list off "well, Archie Bunker did this sexist thing" in an ''All in the Family'' episode guide. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Good point. Still, since it is a part of his personality, I believe it should be noted appropriately. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:29, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Got it. On a side note, there are lots of ''really'' sexist things Cottle could have said about a woman who can't open her mouth, so maybe he should get some credit for holding back... --[[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 10:39, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::None of us, neither the show or any users here, had even had that implication at any time enter our minds. Complete non sequitor. Disgusting to bring up such crudeness, Mr.JohnH. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:38, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::I can't tell if you're being serious or not, here. Because '''I''' certainly had that thought enter my mind, and you can't possibly know what the writers were thinking...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:28, 13 March 2006 (CST)

==Source?==

"Tyrol's union speech alludes to Mario Savio's address during the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in 1964."-->Can I get confirmation on that?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:[http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mario_Savio This is confirmed]. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:34, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Thanks. Great that the show is so political.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:41, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:::I don't think it's political as much as it is human. This is [[Wikipedia: Naturalistic science fiction|"naturalistic" science fiction]], after all. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:56, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Gina's Scars==
We can clearly see that Gina's back is still badly scarred from her treatment on ''Pegasus'' in this episode. However, I seem to recall her back being completely healed in "Epiphanies". Can anybody confirm? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Er, they're on her lower/mid back, while when she was wearing the tank top, you could only see her upper shoulder blades. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:42, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Playa==
At the end of the episode (near the surrender), I thought I saw [[Playa Palacios|"Miss Exclusive"]], though it may have just been a similar-looking blonde. Can someone check this? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 11:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:She's not in the credits. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:03, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Survivor count==
There's a drop of 29 between part 1 and 2: "''A more reasonable explanation is that there was a late update in the survivor count that took into account those who died off-screen during the Cylon attack on the Pegasus in "[[The Captain's Hand]]". Soldiers who are killed are often listed as MIA (Missing in Action) until they can be confirmed as KIA (Killed in Action). In the aftermath of the attack on the Pegasus, it would have taken a while to determine the exact number of crewmen and pilots killed. Also, there were probably a number of crewmen who died from injuries afterwards. As a result, a delay in updating the survivor count is quite likely''"--->No. The survivor count at the beginning of ''Part 1'' would have accounted for these losses. Part 2 takes place weeks, maybe even 2 months past "Captain's Hand"; even "[[Downloaded]]" comes in before there. 2 episodes and about 2 months passed, and we saw no further losses from Captain's Hand beyond the 5 on screen. And the Survivor Count is omniscient. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:05, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: Once would assume that the Fleet has it share of black market thugs and suicidal people... Not everything has to be Cylon related. Just a thought. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:22, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and I have always argued as such...but then that makes the static pop count from end of Captain's Hand through LDYB part I unrealistic itself. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 16:24, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::Well, one would assume that people are reported as missing prior to being reported as dead. Hence the seemingly unrealistic count changes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:32, 11 March 2006 (CST)

::::Even though I STILL think those losses are most likely late figures from "[[The Captain's Hand]]" (I'm not going to argue about this), another possible reason for the drop could be the results of election-related riots/murders. Stuff like that happens. Either that or the writers just screwed up.--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 16:45, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::And, ultimately, that is the problem... it's all about '''thought''', not '''fact'''. Until we know for certain why these variances occur (and why they register when they do), we could think about it until our brains cry for more oxygen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:58, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Judging by our current standards and conventions, and just logic, no, it is impossible for these to be "left over" number from 3 full episodes ago. Think what you want, but don't add it back to the page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:49, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::::: Just keep in mind, the "omniscient" Survivor Count is controlled by the writers just like everything else. And writers do make mistakes occasionally. Besides what other plausible explanations are there?--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 22:41, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::Really? I had always assumed that it was controlled by mutant space monkeys. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:21, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Cloud Nine bodycount. ==

Am I going completely fuzzy-headed here, or is the fact that Cloud Nine was destroyed before the transition to New Caprica being completely overlooked.
''
*How many people died in the Cloud Nine explosion?
**The Cloud Nine explosion also destroyed ships near it. Given the stated size of the New Caprica population along with subtracting the minimal crew sizes needed to maintain the ships in orbit, you can estimate that approximately 3000 to 5000 people died.
***Actually, we have no idea how many people were still crewing the civilian ships in the Fleet when Galactica and Pegasus jumped away, so it could actually have been thousands less than that.''

The answers to the questions, as I remember what I saw, are completely irrelivant. Noone was colonizing the planet yet.
Or am I completely loosing my mind [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:09, 12 March 2006 (CST)
*No, you're quite sane. Admiral Adama had ordered the first teams to New Caprica just before the commercial break, Baltar's last night with Gina, the inauguration, and the blast. There probably wouldn't have been more than a handful of raptor teams on the surface at the time--not enough to make any appreciable dent in the population figures. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:51, 12 March 2006 (EST).
::I am a little confused as to what your asking, but I will try and clarify:
::The episode states that after a year, there are about 39,000 people on New Caprica. The Galactica and the Pegasus require about 5,000 crew between the two ships, but at the time of Baltars election, were only carrying about 4,000. However, it is made clear that the two battlestars are operating with skeleton crews - so lets say for the sake of arguement that thats 1/2 of normal, which would put the combined crews at 2,500. There are other ships in the defense fleet above New Caprica, looks to be about ten additional ships, if I remember correctly. Lets say they need 600 crew each (see [[The Fleet (RDM)]], but are also running with skeleton crews, which puts them at 10 x 600 = 6,000/2 = 3,000. Combine that with the battlestars crew, you get 5,500. Add that to 39,000 and you get 44,500. Compare with the pre-New Caprica pop of 49,000 and it looks like about 4,500 died in the Nuclear blast. So, no, the destuction of Cloud 9 was not overlooked, it was indeed factored into the New Caprican population. --[[User:Kraetos|Kraetos]] 23:30, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Where should this error go? ==
When we see it parked on the surface of New Caprica, [[Colonial One]] was missing the Colonial/presidential seal that we've seen before on its port side. Nobody would have scraped it off the hull. I know the people down there are desperate for resources, but ''paint chips''? --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:56, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:Well the real answer is that they crew just plain old forgot to put it in the model, but forcontinuity's sake, it could be hypothesized that someone discontent with the Baltar Administration scraped off the seal in the middle of the night as if to say 'this man isn't fit to have the presidential seal on his office/spaceship.' --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 13:18, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::I'd prefer to eschew the fanwankery and note it as the continuity glitch it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:28, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:::'Fanwankery'? It is completely plausible that what I said ''might'' have happened, so how can you conclude that it was a glitch. There are many ways paint like that could have come off. Perhaps when they painted the seal on Colonial One they used a paint not suitable for atmospheric re-entry and it got burned off. Maybe there is some sort of corrosive rain on the plannet that solubilizes lower quality paint. Perhaps Baltar didn't like the design on the seal. The point is that even though it was most likely a continuity glitch it is not ''nesscearily'' one. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::::[[Wikipedia:Fanwank|Fanwank]]. It's my new favorite word. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:: Eh, people... can we stop analyzing why the seal isn't on ''Colonial One''? It's more than likely a CGI glitch -- nothing more. Anything else is just unhealthy obsession. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:43, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== 6's credits voiceover ==
Should it be part of this episode? It seems that there is no discussion of it here or anywhere else. -- [[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 14:426, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:That was a commercial for Season 3, not part of this episode. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 13:54, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Firefly connection ==

Greenleaf and Persephone; both were planets in Firefly. I noticed the Greenleaf back in Sacrifice, but this episode was the first time that I saw or heard Persephone. It's a nice little homage to Firefly, if it was even on purpose. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 15:20, 12 March 2006 (CST)

:No. You are grasping at straws. "Persephone" is a very generic, widely known Greco-Roman type name, and we only see it on a list briefly. As for "Greenleaf", it has been mentioned like 3 times in dialog, but this is in fact a reference to Legolas from Lord of the Rings (both Firefly and Lord of the Rings appear to have named something after Legolas, independently of each other). However, that doesn't mean we should make a note saying "wow, both Firefly and BSG have a planet named Greenleaf"...because literally HUNDREDS of other books and tv shows have named stuff in homage to LOTR. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== We'll Be Back ==

Before the fleet jumps away, Adm. Adama announces, in McArthuresque fashion, that "We'll be back." So, I was floored to
notice on the podcast for this episode (which I just got around to listening to) that Ron Moore offhandedly mentioned that Edward James Olmos would not be returning for season three. Did anyone else catch that? It was around 25 minutes into the podcast.
--[[User:TomP|TomP]] 1:22, 13 March 2006 (EST)

:It was a JOKE. They were DRUNK. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:32, 13 March 2006 (CST)

::Also, the Chief and Colonel Tigh got married offscreen in this episode, and Season 3 starts off 5 years in the future ;) --[[Bahamut|Bahamut]] 03:22, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Caprica Six or Gina? ==

The article says:

Are the Six and Eight that Baltar surrendered to Caprica-Six and Galactica-Sharon?
* Judging from Six's reaction to Baltar, almost definitely.

However, couldn't it actually be Gina, and not Caprica-Six? From what we've seen in ''Downloaded'', I doubt the "war heroes" would join the Cylon fleet, let alone try to enslave humanity. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 08:46, 13 March 2006 (CST)

* Gina was direclty proximate to a thermonuclear explosion, and there's no Resurrection Ship currently afloat. Chances are that Gina's instance of Number Six will not be back.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:13, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Questions Section ==
It seems like we have a problem with the "Questions" section of the episode guides. Modeled after the Lurker's Guide to B5 (a resource that I STILL use, whenever I rewatch the series on DVD), the "Questions" seems to be modeled after the [http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/012.html#UQ "Unanswered Questions"] on the Lurker's guide. Now, we're not bound to that by any means, and the episode summary information that we provide is great. However, the "Questions" section seems to become more of a "Questions and Answers" or a "Questions and Speculation", or sometimes a "Questions and Terse Verbal Combat". Ideally I'd like to see some sort of a standard upheld to the questions section so that they would have uniform quality.

One possible suggestion (following the "Oppose, propose" principle), would be moving confirmed, canonical answers to the analysis or notes section. A question with an answer in a subsequent episode might remain, with a link to the episode that answers it. What I'm mainly referring removing to are questions that were answered with information from within that episode (or a prior episode, or the podcast). If the question has already been answered, it's not really an "unanswered question" for that episode.

I just hate seeing the animosity that can be generated from the Q&A process marring the main article space (rather than discussing it in the talk pages, or on a messageboard). Also, it's not that I want to stifle all speculation. I know that our "encyclopedic" standard for most articles can feel pretty restrictive to some. However I do want it to be clear to a new reader what sections are encyclopedic, and which sections may contain speculation. I'm not trying to single anybody out. I'm just trying to clarify the purpose of the section, and see what everybody feels. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:53, 13 March 2006 (CST)

: Lurker's Guide has always rocked my world, too!

: As to your points: as I recall, the B5LG's 'Unanswered Questions' section actually never changed once it was written (well, OK, maybe it got added to, but not subtracted from). The idea behind the section was, "These are the questions this episode raises and does not answer by itself." In a tight arc story like B5, it's useful to have a record of those even when the answers eventually show up in later episodes.

: My feelings run something like this:
# If a question is raised and not answered in the episode, it belongs in the Questions section on the encylopedic page.
# If a question is raised and someone else realises it's actually answered in the episode, it might make sense to add the answer after the question, but it probably makes more sense to move both the question and the answer to the Talk page.
# If a question is answered in a later episode, the analysis for that episode should note that the event hearkens back to an earlier open plot point, and perhaps the original page should be edited to point forward to the answer, but the answer itself should not be edited into the page for the episode that posed the question.
# Debates and discussion have no place on the encylopedic pages; only on the talk pages. So if there's any dispute, the whole thing should be moved over.

: I'm a fanboy, and I like occasionally delving into speculation as much as any other fanboy, but it belongs on the talk pages, not the encylopedic ones, IMO.
--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 12:04, 13 March 2006 (CST)

User:Stealthboy

2006-03-07T15:36:24Z

Stealthboy:

My page.
[[Image:stealthboy_square.png]]

User:Stealthboy

2006-03-07T15:33:22Z

Stealthboy:

My page.
[[Image:http://stealthboy.com/images/me_square.png]]

User:Stealthboy

2006-03-07T15:30:58Z

Stealthboy:

My page.

User talk:Stealthboy

2006-03-07T15:29:48Z

Stealthboy:

Sir, it was a little rude on "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]" to make an edit, then delete it, knowing that we the other editors would see it; if you want to sensibly discuss something, please use the Talk page for that episode. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:11, 6 March 2006 (CST)

Sorry, but I didn't see the talk page right away, so when I found it, I removed the note I added. But I do feel it was a valid question. Is there a discussion area for fans of the show that don't want to spend countless hours counting Raptors and figuring out how the Galactica engines work? That stuff is what turns people off from sci-fi, and we need to realize that the new BG is successful because it doesn't have to explain everything. --Stealthboy
:The closest thing to a discussion area is the talk pages of the various articles and user pages. There you are free to question, speculate, or otherwise talk about the topics on hand. The actual article spaces, however, are the ones that are strictly held to the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions|Standards and Conventions]] as well as the requirements of the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|Citation Jihad]] to ensure that the content is both uniform and accurate. Since the wiki format isn't really all that conducive to straight-up chatting, I think a lot of people here supplement their wiki time at BSG discussion boards (such as the official Scifi.com one). I realize that you're just learning the ropes around here and didn't mean anything by your comment. After all, you hadn't even gotten the "official" greeting yet. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:25, 7 March 2006 (CST)
::That's cool. I am very sorry, and I have since added a note to the discussion page to start some talk there. I do apologize! I have spent some time at the official sci-fi board, but I find it difficult to read because of the huge image signatures, and general immaturity of some posts. Anyways, I really am sorry, and I hope I can start to contribute in a valuable way here. This site you have here is just amazing.

== Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! ==

Welcome to the Wiki, Stealthboy. Feel free to tell us about yourself on [[User:Stealthboy|your user page]]. Before you get started on other edits, please read the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]], which details the policies we use in editing pages (this differs from many other wikis in consistent use of phrasing, abbreviations, format, and the like).

Also, if you have any questions or suggestions you wish to offer, please feel free to do so either on your user talk page, the [[Battlestar Wiki:Wikipedian Quorum|Wikipedian Quorum]] or [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Administrators' noticeboard]]. Remember to sign your posts on any talk pages using four tildes (~~~~)! We look forward to your contributions to the community!--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:25, 7 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I/Archive 1

2006-03-07T15:16:06Z

Stealthboy:

Since, according to IMDB, Dean Stockwell has been credited with the role of Brother Cavell (not Cavill) ... should this page be modified? Apparently, one more cylon has been identified.

:Not sure. All the ep guide says is that Cavell is a Humano-Cylon priest. IS it possible that the spoiler is wrong and he's really just a religious leader (possibly replacing Elosha) who is promoting a Human-Cylon peace? --Ltcrashdown 22:19, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've been spoiled, and can tell you that he is indeed a Cylon (unless he has an identical twin brother). [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:49, 4 March 2006 (EST)
:::Ummm... dude, thanks for spoiling me. Grrr.... --[[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]] 10:38, 6 March 2006 (EST)

Found some pics - Spoiler Warning - http://pics.livejournal.com/ravenclawdrew/gallery/0000wa1h - [[User:Lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 12:30, 11 February, 2006

::Yeah I saw those too; it's what I based the info about Baltar running for President on (look really hard).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:40, 10 February 2006 (EST)

I am starting to think these spoilers were to throw us off the track...

Corrected a number of spelling mistakes - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 3rd March, 2006

Note to everyone: I tend to make a lot of spelling mistakes because I'm hurrying, and worrying about spelling makes it harder for me to concentrate and focus on the information, and slows me down alot; I usually try to proofread my stuff when I'm "done" with an episode (after most of the notes and stuff around done) but I still tend to leave a typo here or there. I appreciate the spelling help. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:55, 3 March 2006 (CST)

Merovingian, don't worry, the quality article makes "up" for it ;) i do the same thing as well when it comes to writing up an article - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 3rd March, 2006

:Yeah I usually only worry about spelling around Sundays, by which time we're more or less done. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:04, 3 March 2006 (CST)

::I think this is the right approach. We obviously want the capsule summaries sooner rather than later. And we don't criticise authors' typos as English may not be their native tongue and in any event if we waited for perfection we'd still be on the miniseries. [[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 08:14, 4 March 2006 (CST)

Does anyone know the music playing the the background from the first few scenes of this episode? --[[User:PioneerCreative|PioneerCreative]] 23:33, 3 March 2006 (CST)

How many Raptors are lost in the misjump into the mountain? One or two? I only thought it was on when I watched the episode and edited the summary to reflect this, but it seems '''everybody''' else seems to think it was a pair. Starbuck did say two names, but I interpreted those to be the pilot and ECO of a single Raptor. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 01:29, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:Helo says they have 17 Raptors left. They already lost Racetrack's. They then say two names, and Starbuck says "we lost Raptore six twelve"; Now, this sounds confusing, but I don't think she said "Raptor 612"; I think she said "Raptors 6, 12" out of 20. Plus she did say two names; in addition, it wasn't just pilots but also marines, so one name wouldn't make as much sense. Although a little fuzzy, this still fits the "19-17=2" thing, instead of us jumping to believe that another Raptor got lost in a completely undocumented event. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 01:36, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::I remember hearing Helo say they had seventeen left after (I thought) a single one had been lost in the mountain and thinking nineteen was an odd starting number, having missed the earlier reference to the entire complement being twenty. If the starting force did indeed number twenty, it seems clear two Raptors were indeed lost in the final jump and I was mistaken. I will point out, however, that Starbuck would be much less likely to know the names of marines lost on board a ship, while it's almost a given she would know who the flight crew were. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 02:01, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::Helo actually says, "Wait a minute, we lost ''another'' Raptor. I'm only reading 17 ''out there''." His DRADIS screen doesn't display the Raptor they are in - that behavior was shown clearly in Scattered. Galactica's DRADIS was completely empty when they were seperated from the fleet, it didn't show Galactica itself as a single contact. So, clearly, Helo is talking about there being 17 other Raptors, in addition to the one he, Starbuck, and Sharon are in. In addition, Starbuck clearly says Raptor, not Raptors, and it is extremely unlikely that she would verbally separate a list of two numbers with an implied comma rather than the word 'and'. Not to mention, Raptors are commonly referred to by their 3-digit flight number. So only two Raptors were lost - Racetrack's miscalculated jump, and Raptor 612, which jumped into the mountain. Eighteen landed safely on Caprica. --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 09:00, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::::Xenophon is right on the money. Oh well, this means I don't have to right all that. I suddenly want to read "The Ten Thousand" again... --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:24, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::::And just to chime in, if there were only 17 raptors, then Kara would have had to scrub the mission, so 18 did land on Caprica. --[[User:LindyChef|LindyChef]] 23:05, 6 March 2006 (CST)

BTW: in case anyone was wondering later; in the podcast, RDM confirms that by "jumped into the mountain" he doesn't mean "they jumped close to it and thus crashed", he means, exactly like a ''Star Trek'' transporter accident, that they materialized from the Jump "in solid rock" like a transporter accident. Cool. (It's what I assumed too).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:39, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::If the FTL drive works by opening up a wormhole then it seems like jumping into a mountain would create a sphear of rock that would be 'jumped' into space while the raptor swapped places with it. Likewise a puff of air would be seen if you were observing the spot from which the the raptors made their final jump into the atomosphere. If that was the case it would be possible for the unfortunate raptor to just jump itself out of the mountain. On the other hand perhaps opening up the wormhole w/one end in the mountain perhaps the raptor collided with the rock that was being 'jumped out' leaving its transponder intact inside the mountain but the raptor & its crew would be smashed up. If this is the case FTL's could make useful mining tools. If some valuable ore is buried at the center of a planet or star just use an FTL to open up a wormhole and let it come out. Say your water tanks are empty. Just open up a wormhole inside the tank with the other end in some fresh water lake & the water will pour out and fill you up. -- ''attributed to'' [[User:Boonton|Boonton]] ''@ unknown time''

:::Oh man, you're getting into quantum physics, and while that makes for a fascinating discussion (appropriate for here, if you wish), I'll prefix this by saying that RDM has stated, several times, that he's not one for techno-babble-geekiness. Let's just figure the folks in that Raptor got "rocked" (sorry, bad pun... I could have said "stoned") and won't be seen again. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:49, 6 March 2006 (CST)

:::Fair point. I love that RDM has kept away from geeking the series up with psuedo-science but the mind can't help but wonder about these things. --[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 14:09, 6 March 2006 (CST)

Is the planet in this episode [[Earth]]? -- [[User:John-1107|John-1107]] 09:06, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:No. The leaders know roughly where Earth is, and it's very far away from their current position. [[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 09:13, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::Not to mention that Earth is neither barren nor hidden in a nebula. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:47, 4 March 2006 (EST)
:::Not now, at least. [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 15:30, 4 March 2006 (EST)

Hey all, I find it interesting that the discussion automatically focuses on counting Raptors and figuring out how the technical things work. Can we perhaps add some discussion about the actual events of the show, and the characters? To me, the draw of the show is the fact that it's actually a character drama that just happens to be set in space... Ron Moore has said many times that he doesn't feel the need to explain how everything works, and I think that goes a long way in making it a successful show. The last time I really saw that was the original Star Wars. With no explaination of all the sci-fi tech, you more readily accepted "their" world and just went along for the ride, instead of getting caught up on minutia of how FTL works, etc. Thoughts? Or am I just out there...? -- [[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]] 10:23, 7 March 2006 (EST)

==Raptor Count==
Questions:
#Did we get the 20 raptor count in dialog?
#We lost Racetrack on the first jump and Raptor 612 on the last. The SAR team had 17 raptors after that, so if they started off with 20, they lost one other in between. Only Raptor 612 got up close and personal with the mountain. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:51, 4 March 2006 (CST)
:No, Farago. She said "RaptorS 6, 12". They lost 2 in the final jump, 1 when Racetrack got lost, and none in between. Starbuck lists off two names. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:12, 4 March 2006 (CST)
:Counting the one they're in (Helo said something like "there are only 17 Raptors '''out there'''") it would have to be Raptor 612 (they've paused like that before in dialogue "Raptor 6..12").
*17 other survivors
*Starbucks (one with Heavy Raider brain)
*612 (in mountain)
*Racetracks
=20
::Helo is in Starbuck's Raptor, which would not show up on his screen. The correct count is Helo/Starbuck's ship, + Racetrack, + Raptor 612 (lost in the mountain), + 17 others = 20. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 09:28, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::Yes, but are we ''certain'' there were 20 raptors to begin with? It's not given in dialog, and I haven't been able to get a good count from any CGI shots. According to sadgeezer, these are the pilots that checkin with Starbuck over wireless:
:::#Headcase
:::#Swordsman
:::#Shoestrap
:::#Scumball
:::#Milko
:::#Skylar
:::#Ronin
:::#Brake
:::#Boulion
:::#Steaker
:::#Hamster
:::#Bo
:::#Chaser
:::#Godama
:::#Charlieman
:::#Starcloud
:::#Racetrack
:::#Callon
:::#...and Starbuck.
:::I suppose the raptor piloted by "Toughguy" and "Carousel" makes 20. I also hear an unintellgable name between "Swordsman" and "Shoestrap", but I can't actually hear "Toughguy" either - they might be the same person. I think it's worth noting that [[Stubbs]] isn't on this list - this reinforces my opinion that he was the pilot killed in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I", but I suppose it's possible that he's still around and just opted out of the mission.
:::--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:00, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::::I'm confused - I don't remember hearing that many checkins. The only time I recall them doing it, I heard at most a couple followed by Racetrack and then they were done. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 22:48, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Raptor Reconciliation ==

In Scar the mining ship was mining metals for Pegas's production teams to construct new vipers. Isn't it possible they produced some raptors as well?
:It might be, but just like an automobile factory, it would probably take substantial effort and material to re-tool the ''Pegasus'' viper factory for raptors. Switching to another variety of the same vehicle (Corollas to Camrys, or Mark II vipers to Mark VII) takes some doing; this would be a much bigger change. [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 5 March 2006 6:08 p.m. (EST).
::Well, the Pegasus has the capablility to build one craft in it's air wing. Logically, she should also be able to produce other ones. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:59, 5 March 2006 (CST)
::Actually many automobile assembly lines are being designed now to allow for multiple models to be built at the same time. For example, BMW's new plant in Leipzig can produce all 10 BMW models on the same assembly line. --[[User:LindyChef|LindyChef]] 22:59, 6 March 2006 (CST)

==Noodles note==

I think the noodles note on this went on far longer than it should; just leave it with "this is something his father did too": pointing out all of the superstitions and stuff just ran on--->unless RDM himself mentions this kind of thing in the podcast, she should not use it here; RDM indeed did not mention it in the podcast for LDYB part I. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:05, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Spoiler's Right or Wrong ==

So were the spoilers that were posted before the episode aired a red herring? The planet was not offered by the cyclons as part of a peace initive. Since one of the selling points of this planet is that it is supposedly unlikely to be found by the cyclons wouldn't any of them showing up in part 2 basically spoil the whole idea? -- ''attributed to'' [[User:Boonton|Boonton]] ''@ unknown time''

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I/Archive 1

2006-03-07T15:01:38Z

Stealthboy:

Since, according to IMDB, Dean Stockwell has been credited with the role of Brother Cavell (not Cavill) ... should this page be modified? Apparently, one more cylon has been identified.

:Not sure. All the ep guide says is that Cavell is a Humano-Cylon priest. IS it possible that the spoiler is wrong and he's really just a religious leader (possibly replacing Elosha) who is promoting a Human-Cylon peace? --Ltcrashdown 22:19, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've been spoiled, and can tell you that he is indeed a Cylon (unless he has an identical twin brother). [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:49, 4 March 2006 (EST)

Found some pics - Spoiler Warning - http://pics.livejournal.com/ravenclawdrew/gallery/0000wa1h - [[User:Lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 12:30, 11 February, 2006

::Yeah I saw those too; it's what I based the info about Baltar running for President on (look really hard).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:40, 10 February 2006 (EST)

I am starting to think these spoilers were to throw us off the track...

Corrected a number of spelling mistakes - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 3rd March, 2006

Note to everyone: I tend to make a lot of spelling mistakes because I'm hurrying, and worrying about spelling makes it harder for me to concentrate and focus on the information, and slows me down alot; I usually try to proofread my stuff when I'm "done" with an episode (after most of the notes and stuff around done) but I still tend to leave a typo here or there. I appreciate the spelling help. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:55, 3 March 2006 (CST)

Merovingian, don't worry, the quality article makes "up" for it ;) i do the same thing as well when it comes to writing up an article - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 3rd March, 2006

:Yeah I usually only worry about spelling around Sundays, by which time we're more or less done. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:04, 3 March 2006 (CST)

::I think this is the right approach. We obviously want the capsule summaries sooner rather than later. And we don't criticise authors' typos as English may not be their native tongue and in any event if we waited for perfection we'd still be on the miniseries. [[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 08:14, 4 March 2006 (CST)

Does anyone know the music playing the the background from the first few scenes of this episode? --[[User:PioneerCreative|PioneerCreative]] 23:33, 3 March 2006 (CST)

How many Raptors are lost in the misjump into the mountain? One or two? I only thought it was on when I watched the episode and edited the summary to reflect this, but it seems '''everybody''' else seems to think it was a pair. Starbuck did say two names, but I interpreted those to be the pilot and ECO of a single Raptor. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 01:29, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:Helo says they have 17 Raptors left. They already lost Racetrack's. They then say two names, and Starbuck says "we lost Raptore six twelve"; Now, this sounds confusing, but I don't think she said "Raptor 612"; I think she said "Raptors 6, 12" out of 20. Plus she did say two names; in addition, it wasn't just pilots but also marines, so one name wouldn't make as much sense. Although a little fuzzy, this still fits the "19-17=2" thing, instead of us jumping to believe that another Raptor got lost in a completely undocumented event. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 01:36, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::I remember hearing Helo say they had seventeen left after (I thought) a single one had been lost in the mountain and thinking nineteen was an odd starting number, having missed the earlier reference to the entire complement being twenty. If the starting force did indeed number twenty, it seems clear two Raptors were indeed lost in the final jump and I was mistaken. I will point out, however, that Starbuck would be much less likely to know the names of marines lost on board a ship, while it's almost a given she would know who the flight crew were. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 02:01, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::Helo actually says, "Wait a minute, we lost ''another'' Raptor. I'm only reading 17 ''out there''." His DRADIS screen doesn't display the Raptor they are in - that behavior was shown clearly in Scattered. Galactica's DRADIS was completely empty when they were seperated from the fleet, it didn't show Galactica itself as a single contact. So, clearly, Helo is talking about there being 17 other Raptors, in addition to the one he, Starbuck, and Sharon are in. In addition, Starbuck clearly says Raptor, not Raptors, and it is extremely unlikely that she would verbally separate a list of two numbers with an implied comma rather than the word 'and'. Not to mention, Raptors are commonly referred to by their 3-digit flight number. So only two Raptors were lost - Racetrack's miscalculated jump, and Raptor 612, which jumped into the mountain. Eighteen landed safely on Caprica. --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 09:00, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::::Xenophon is right on the money. Oh well, this means I don't have to right all that. I suddenly want to read "The Ten Thousand" again... --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:24, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::::And just to chime in, if there were only 17 raptors, then Kara would have had to scrub the mission, so 18 did land on Caprica. --[[User:LindyChef|LindyChef]] 23:05, 6 March 2006 (CST)

BTW: in case anyone was wondering later; in the podcast, RDM confirms that by "jumped into the mountain" he doesn't mean "they jumped close to it and thus crashed", he means, exactly like a ''Star Trek'' transporter accident, that they materialized from the Jump "in solid rock" like a transporter accident. Cool. (It's what I assumed too).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:39, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::If the FTL drive works by opening up a wormhole then it seems like jumping into a mountain would create a sphear of rock that would be 'jumped' into space while the raptor swapped places with it. Likewise a puff of air would be seen if you were observing the spot from which the the raptors made their final jump into the atomosphere. If that was the case it would be possible for the unfortunate raptor to just jump itself out of the mountain. On the other hand perhaps opening up the wormhole w/one end in the mountain perhaps the raptor collided with the rock that was being 'jumped out' leaving its transponder intact inside the mountain but the raptor & its crew would be smashed up. If this is the case FTL's could make useful mining tools. If some valuable ore is buried at the center of a planet or star just use an FTL to open up a wormhole and let it come out. Say your water tanks are empty. Just open up a wormhole inside the tank with the other end in some fresh water lake & the water will pour out and fill you up. -- ''attributed to'' [[User:Boonton|Boonton]] ''@ unknown time''

:::Oh man, you're getting into quantum physics, and while that makes for a fascinating discussion (appropriate for here, if you wish), I'll prefix this by saying that RDM has stated, several times, that he's not one for techno-babble-geekiness. Let's just figure the folks in that Raptor got "rocked" (sorry, bad pun... I could have said "stoned") and won't be seen again. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:49, 6 March 2006 (CST)

:::Fair point. I love that RDM has kept away from geeking the series up with psuedo-science but the mind can't help but wonder about these things. --[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 14:09, 6 March 2006 (CST)

Is the planet in this episode [[Earth]]? -- [[User:John-1107|John-1107]] 09:06, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:No. The leaders know roughly where Earth is, and it's very far away from their current position. [[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 09:13, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::Not to mention that Earth is neither barren nor hidden in a nebula. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:47, 4 March 2006 (EST)
:::Not now, at least. [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 15:30, 4 March 2006 (EST)

Hey all, I find it interesting that the discussion automatically focuses on counting Raptors and figuring out how the technical things work. Can we perhaps add some discussion about the actual events of the show, and the characters? To me, the draw of the show is the fact that it's actually a character drama that just happens to be set in space... Ron Moore has said many times that he doesn't feel the need to explain how everything works, and I think that goes a long way in making it a successful show. The last time I really saw that was the original Star Wars. With no explaination of all the sci-fi tech, you more readily accepted "their" world and just went along for the ride, instead of getting caught up on minutia of how FTL works, etc. Thoughts? Or am I just out there...? -- [[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]] 10:23, 7 March 2006 (EST)

==Raptor Count==
Questions:
#Did we get the 20 raptor count in dialog?
#We lost Racetrack on the first jump and Raptor 612 on the last. The SAR team had 17 raptors after that, so if they started off with 20, they lost one other in between. Only Raptor 612 got up close and personal with the mountain. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:51, 4 March 2006 (CST)
:No, Farago. She said "RaptorS 6, 12". They lost 2 in the final jump, 1 when Racetrack got lost, and none in between. Starbuck lists off two names. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:12, 4 March 2006 (CST)
:Counting the one they're in (Helo said something like "there are only 17 Raptors '''out there'''") it would have to be Raptor 612 (they've paused like that before in dialogue "Raptor 6..12").
*17 other survivors
*Starbucks (one with Heavy Raider brain)
*612 (in mountain)
*Racetracks
=20
::Helo is in Starbuck's Raptor, which would not show up on his screen. The correct count is Helo/Starbuck's ship, + Racetrack, + Raptor 612 (lost in the mountain), + 17 others = 20. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 09:28, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::Yes, but are we ''certain'' there were 20 raptors to begin with? It's not given in dialog, and I haven't been able to get a good count from any CGI shots. According to sadgeezer, these are the pilots that checkin with Starbuck over wireless:
:::#Headcase
:::#Swordsman
:::#Shoestrap
:::#Scumball
:::#Milko
:::#Skylar
:::#Ronin
:::#Brake
:::#Boulion
:::#Steaker
:::#Hamster
:::#Bo
:::#Chaser
:::#Godama
:::#Charlieman
:::#Starcloud
:::#Racetrack
:::#Callon
:::#...and Starbuck.
:::I suppose the raptor piloted by "Toughguy" and "Carousel" makes 20. I also hear an unintellgable name between "Swordsman" and "Shoestrap", but I can't actually hear "Toughguy" either - they might be the same person. I think it's worth noting that [[Stubbs]] isn't on this list - this reinforces my opinion that he was the pilot killed in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I", but I suppose it's possible that he's still around and just opted out of the mission.
:::--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:00, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::::I'm confused - I don't remember hearing that many checkins. The only time I recall them doing it, I heard at most a couple followed by Racetrack and then they were done. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 22:48, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Raptor Reconciliation ==

In Scar the mining ship was mining metals for Pegas's production teams to construct new vipers. Isn't it possible they produced some raptors as well?
:It might be, but just like an automobile factory, it would probably take substantial effort and material to re-tool the ''Pegasus'' viper factory for raptors. Switching to another variety of the same vehicle (Corollas to Camrys, or Mark II vipers to Mark VII) takes some doing; this would be a much bigger change. [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 5 March 2006 6:08 p.m. (EST).
::Well, the Pegasus has the capablility to build one craft in it's air wing. Logically, she should also be able to produce other ones. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:59, 5 March 2006 (CST)
::Actually many automobile assembly lines are being designed now to allow for multiple models to be built at the same time. For example, BMW's new plant in Leipzig can produce all 10 BMW models on the same assembly line. --[[User:LindyChef|LindyChef]] 22:59, 6 March 2006 (CST)

==Noodles note==

I think the noodles note on this went on far longer than it should; just leave it with "this is something his father did too": pointing out all of the superstitions and stuff just ran on--->unless RDM himself mentions this kind of thing in the podcast, she should not use it here; RDM indeed did not mention it in the podcast for LDYB part I. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:05, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Spoiler's Right or Wrong ==

So were the spoilers that were posted before the episode aired a red herring? The planet was not offered by the cyclons as part of a peace initive. Since one of the selling points of this planet is that it is supposedly unlikely to be found by the cyclons wouldn't any of them showing up in part 2 basically spoil the whole idea? -- ''attributed to'' [[User:Boonton|Boonton]] ''@ unknown time''

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I/Archive 1

2006-03-07T15:00:09Z

Stealthboy:

Since, according to IMDB, Dean Stockwell has been credited with the role of Brother Cavell (not Cavill) ... should this page be modified? Apparently, one more cylon has been identified.

:Not sure. All the ep guide says is that Cavell is a Humano-Cylon priest. IS it possible that the spoiler is wrong and he's really just a religious leader (possibly replacing Elosha) who is promoting a Human-Cylon peace? --Ltcrashdown 22:19, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've been spoiled, and can tell you that he is indeed a Cylon (unless he has an identical twin brother). [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:49, 4 March 2006 (EST)

Found some pics - Spoiler Warning - http://pics.livejournal.com/ravenclawdrew/gallery/0000wa1h - [[User:Lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 12:30, 11 February, 2006

::Yeah I saw those too; it's what I based the info about Baltar running for President on (look really hard).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:40, 10 February 2006 (EST)

I am starting to think these spoilers were to throw us off the track...

Corrected a number of spelling mistakes - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 3rd March, 2006

Note to everyone: I tend to make a lot of spelling mistakes because I'm hurrying, and worrying about spelling makes it harder for me to concentrate and focus on the information, and slows me down alot; I usually try to proofread my stuff when I'm "done" with an episode (after most of the notes and stuff around done) but I still tend to leave a typo here or there. I appreciate the spelling help. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:55, 3 March 2006 (CST)

Merovingian, don't worry, the quality article makes "up" for it ;) i do the same thing as well when it comes to writing up an article - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 3rd March, 2006

:Yeah I usually only worry about spelling around Sundays, by which time we're more or less done. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:04, 3 March 2006 (CST)

::I think this is the right approach. We obviously want the capsule summaries sooner rather than later. And we don't criticise authors' typos as English may not be their native tongue and in any event if we waited for perfection we'd still be on the miniseries. [[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 08:14, 4 March 2006 (CST)

Does anyone know the music playing the the background from the first few scenes of this episode? --[[User:PioneerCreative|PioneerCreative]] 23:33, 3 March 2006 (CST)

How many Raptors are lost in the misjump into the mountain? One or two? I only thought it was on when I watched the episode and edited the summary to reflect this, but it seems '''everybody''' else seems to think it was a pair. Starbuck did say two names, but I interpreted those to be the pilot and ECO of a single Raptor. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 01:29, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:Helo says they have 17 Raptors left. They already lost Racetrack's. They then say two names, and Starbuck says "we lost Raptore six twelve"; Now, this sounds confusing, but I don't think she said "Raptor 612"; I think she said "Raptors 6, 12" out of 20. Plus she did say two names; in addition, it wasn't just pilots but also marines, so one name wouldn't make as much sense. Although a little fuzzy, this still fits the "19-17=2" thing, instead of us jumping to believe that another Raptor got lost in a completely undocumented event. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 01:36, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::I remember hearing Helo say they had seventeen left after (I thought) a single one had been lost in the mountain and thinking nineteen was an odd starting number, having missed the earlier reference to the entire complement being twenty. If the starting force did indeed number twenty, it seems clear two Raptors were indeed lost in the final jump and I was mistaken. I will point out, however, that Starbuck would be much less likely to know the names of marines lost on board a ship, while it's almost a given she would know who the flight crew were. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 02:01, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::Helo actually says, "Wait a minute, we lost ''another'' Raptor. I'm only reading 17 ''out there''." His DRADIS screen doesn't display the Raptor they are in - that behavior was shown clearly in Scattered. Galactica's DRADIS was completely empty when they were seperated from the fleet, it didn't show Galactica itself as a single contact. So, clearly, Helo is talking about there being 17 other Raptors, in addition to the one he, Starbuck, and Sharon are in. In addition, Starbuck clearly says Raptor, not Raptors, and it is extremely unlikely that she would verbally separate a list of two numbers with an implied comma rather than the word 'and'. Not to mention, Raptors are commonly referred to by their 3-digit flight number. So only two Raptors were lost - Racetrack's miscalculated jump, and Raptor 612, which jumped into the mountain. Eighteen landed safely on Caprica. --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 09:00, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::::Xenophon is right on the money. Oh well, this means I don't have to right all that. I suddenly want to read "The Ten Thousand" again... --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:24, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::::And just to chime in, if there were only 17 raptors, then Kara would have had to scrub the mission, so 18 did land on Caprica. --[[User:LindyChef|LindyChef]] 23:05, 6 March 2006 (CST)

BTW: in case anyone was wondering later; in the podcast, RDM confirms that by "jumped into the mountain" he doesn't mean "they jumped close to it and thus crashed", he means, exactly like a ''Star Trek'' transporter accident, that they materialized from the Jump "in solid rock" like a transporter accident. Cool. (It's what I assumed too).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:39, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::If the FTL drive works by opening up a wormhole then it seems like jumping into a mountain would create a sphear of rock that would be 'jumped' into space while the raptor swapped places with it. Likewise a puff of air would be seen if you were observing the spot from which the the raptors made their final jump into the atomosphere. If that was the case it would be possible for the unfortunate raptor to just jump itself out of the mountain. On the other hand perhaps opening up the wormhole w/one end in the mountain perhaps the raptor collided with the rock that was being 'jumped out' leaving its transponder intact inside the mountain but the raptor & its crew would be smashed up. If this is the case FTL's could make useful mining tools. If some valuable ore is buried at the center of a planet or star just use an FTL to open up a wormhole and let it come out. Say your water tanks are empty. Just open up a wormhole inside the tank with the other end in some fresh water lake & the water will pour out and fill you up. -- ''attributed to'' [[User:Boonton|Boonton]] ''@ unknown time''

:::Oh man, you're getting into quantum physics, and while that makes for a fascinating discussion (appropriate for here, if you wish), I'll prefix this by saying that RDM has stated, several times, that he's not one for techno-babble-geekiness. Let's just figure the folks in that Raptor got "rocked" (sorry, bad pun... I could have said "stoned") and won't be seen again. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:49, 6 March 2006 (CST)

:::Fair point. I love that RDM has kept away from geeking the series up with psuedo-science but the mind can't help but wonder about these things. --[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 14:09, 6 March 2006 (CST)

Is the planet in this episode [[Earth]]? -- [[User:John-1107|John-1107]] 09:06, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:No. The leaders know roughly where Earth is, and it's very far away from their current position. [[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 09:13, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::Not to mention that Earth is neither barren nor hidden in a nebula. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:47, 4 March 2006 (EST)
:::Not now, at least. [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 15:30, 4 March 2006 (EST)

Hey all, I find it interesting that the discussion automatically focuses on counting Raptors and figuring out how the technical things work. Can we perhaps add some discussion about the actual events of the show, and the characters? To me, the draw of the show is the fact that it's actually a character drama that just happens to be set in space... Ron Moore has said many times that he doesn't feel the need to explain how everything works, and I think that goes a long way in making it a successful show. The last time I really saw that was the original Star Wars. With no explaination of all the sci-fi tech, you more readily accepted "their" world and just went along for the ride, instead of getting caught up on minutia of how FTL works, etc. Thoughts? Or am I just out there...?

==Raptor Count==
Questions:
#Did we get the 20 raptor count in dialog?
#We lost Racetrack on the first jump and Raptor 612 on the last. The SAR team had 17 raptors after that, so if they started off with 20, they lost one other in between. Only Raptor 612 got up close and personal with the mountain. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:51, 4 March 2006 (CST)
:No, Farago. She said "RaptorS 6, 12". They lost 2 in the final jump, 1 when Racetrack got lost, and none in between. Starbuck lists off two names. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:12, 4 March 2006 (CST)
:Counting the one they're in (Helo said something like "there are only 17 Raptors '''out there'''") it would have to be Raptor 612 (they've paused like that before in dialogue "Raptor 6..12").
*17 other survivors
*Starbucks (one with Heavy Raider brain)
*612 (in mountain)
*Racetracks
=20
::Helo is in Starbuck's Raptor, which would not show up on his screen. The correct count is Helo/Starbuck's ship, + Racetrack, + Raptor 612 (lost in the mountain), + 17 others = 20. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 09:28, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::Yes, but are we ''certain'' there were 20 raptors to begin with? It's not given in dialog, and I haven't been able to get a good count from any CGI shots. According to sadgeezer, these are the pilots that checkin with Starbuck over wireless:
:::#Headcase
:::#Swordsman
:::#Shoestrap
:::#Scumball
:::#Milko
:::#Skylar
:::#Ronin
:::#Brake
:::#Boulion
:::#Steaker
:::#Hamster
:::#Bo
:::#Chaser
:::#Godama
:::#Charlieman
:::#Starcloud
:::#Racetrack
:::#Callon
:::#...and Starbuck.
:::I suppose the raptor piloted by "Toughguy" and "Carousel" makes 20. I also hear an unintellgable name between "Swordsman" and "Shoestrap", but I can't actually hear "Toughguy" either - they might be the same person. I think it's worth noting that [[Stubbs]] isn't on this list - this reinforces my opinion that he was the pilot killed in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I", but I suppose it's possible that he's still around and just opted out of the mission.
:::--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:00, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::::I'm confused - I don't remember hearing that many checkins. The only time I recall them doing it, I heard at most a couple followed by Racetrack and then they were done. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 22:48, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Raptor Reconciliation ==

In Scar the mining ship was mining metals for Pegas's production teams to construct new vipers. Isn't it possible they produced some raptors as well?
:It might be, but just like an automobile factory, it would probably take substantial effort and material to re-tool the ''Pegasus'' viper factory for raptors. Switching to another variety of the same vehicle (Corollas to Camrys, or Mark II vipers to Mark VII) takes some doing; this would be a much bigger change. [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 5 March 2006 6:08 p.m. (EST).
::Well, the Pegasus has the capablility to build one craft in it's air wing. Logically, she should also be able to produce other ones. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:59, 5 March 2006 (CST)
::Actually many automobile assembly lines are being designed now to allow for multiple models to be built at the same time. For example, BMW's new plant in Leipzig can produce all 10 BMW models on the same assembly line. --[[User:LindyChef|LindyChef]] 22:59, 6 March 2006 (CST)

==Noodles note==

I think the noodles note on this went on far longer than it should; just leave it with "this is something his father did too": pointing out all of the superstitions and stuff just ran on--->unless RDM himself mentions this kind of thing in the podcast, she should not use it here; RDM indeed did not mention it in the podcast for LDYB part I. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:05, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Spoiler's Right or Wrong ==

So were the spoilers that were posted before the episode aired a red herring? The planet was not offered by the cyclons as part of a peace initive. Since one of the selling points of this planet is that it is supposedly unlikely to be found by the cyclons wouldn't any of them showing up in part 2 basically spoil the whole idea? -- ''attributed to'' [[User:Boonton|Boonton]] ''@ unknown time''

User talk:Stealthboy

2006-03-07T14:48:30Z

Stealthboy:

Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I

2006-03-06T17:07:37Z

Stealthboy: /* Questions */

{{Episode Data|
Image = [[Image:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I.jpg|300px]]
| Title= Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I
| Series= [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|The Re-imagined Series]]
| Season= [[Season 2 (2005-06)|2]]
| Episode= 19
| Guests= [[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]] [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0874001/ Michael Trucco] as [[Samuel Anders]]
| Writer=[[Ronald D. Moore]]
| Story=
| Director=[[Michael Rymer]]
| Production=
| Rating=
| US Airdate=March 3, 2006
| UK Airdate=
| DVD=
| Population= 49,579
| Prev= [[Downloaded]]
| Next= [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]
}}

== Overview ==
''As the presidential election looms just weeks away, the accidental discovery of a habitable planet sparks debate in the Fleet: Colonize? Or keep seeking Earth? Meanwhile, Starbuck leads a rescue mission of Raptors back to Caprica to save Anders and his resistance''.

== Summary ==
*[[William Adama|Adama]] has finally given [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] the go-ahead to plan a rescue mission to [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Caprica]]. On [[Pegasus (RDM)|''Pegasus'']], she lays out their plan: they will use ''all'' of their remaining [[Raptor|Raptors]] — 20 in all — and use the navigation computer/organ from one of the captured [[Heavy Raider]]s to calculate the Jumps back to Caprica. Using this, they can make it back to Caprica in a series of 10 Jumps. They will go undetected when they reach Caprica by making a risky jump to just a few klicks above the surface, within the atmosphere itself, below [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] [[DRADIS]]. Their biggest obstacle to doing this was actually interfacing with the Heavy Raider's navigation "computer", but now they will take [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|''Caprica''-Sharon]] along in Starbuck's Raptor with it; Sharon will directly interface with the computer (by inserting a fiber-optic cable into her arm, like she did in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]").
*The presidential election is two weeks away, and [[Laura Roslin|Roslin]] is ahead in the polls. The only real arguments that [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] has against her that give him any ground are when he accuses her of pandering to the religious fundamentalists (i.e. her recent policy switch on abortion) and guiding the Fleet based on the scriptures alone. Conferring with his campaign manager [[Tom Zarek]] in his lab, Baltar realizes he'll need more than this to turn the fleet againt Roslin. Meanwhile, Roslin is doing a little rehearsal ritual for the presidential debate with Adama in his quarters.
*On the hangar deck, [[Galen Tyrol|Chief Tyrol]] is sleeping on the floor and twitching convulsively, having a nightmare. [[Cally]] searches around the deck to find him, and is confused by the sight when she finds him. Cally tried to wake Tyrol up, but snapping right out of his nightmare he attacks Cally, punching her in the face until she is a bloody pulp and unconscious. Realizing where he is and what's going on, Tyrol is horrified, and carries Cally in his arms to sickbay.
*[[Lee Adama|Apollo]], now commander of ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', has conflicting feelings about Starbuck's mission to rescue Anders, but wishes her good luck in finding him.
*[[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and ''Caprica''-Sharon travel in Starbuck's Raptor. Sharon is still deeply depressed about her daughter [[Hera]]'s seeming death, and has been shutting herself out. Helo tells her that he won't let her do that and won't give up on her. Sharon tells him that she has the feeling that something bad will happen in the future; not on the mission to Caprica, but something else.
*On the very first jump out of the series of ten, [[Margaret Edmonson|Racetrack]]'s Raptor jumps to the wrong set of coordinates. Starbuck's orders were to keep going ahead until they lose 3 Raptors, so they go on ahead, while Racetrack prepares to follow her orders to return to [[Galactica (RDM)|''Galactica'']] if separated. Her Raptor jumped into the middle of a gas cloud with a lot of interference, and upon clearing it, a new planet is found. Scanners indicate that it is a human-habitable planet. She returns to ''Galactica'' with news of the discovery.
*The crew goes over the scans from the planet; it can sustain human life and subsequent scouting shows that in contains animal and vegetative life; they could indeed settle here. However, it is a cold world and somewhat harsh; only a temperate band around the equator covering about 20% of the surface would be habitable. After some prodding from [[Six]], Baltar and Zarek realize that they can use this as their wedge issue to turn the people against Roslin: offer them permament colonization on this planet.
*[[Tory Foster|Tory]] goes over new poll numbers with Roslin on [[Colonial One]]: Baltar has been gaining ground with his new offer to stop running from the Cylons and stay here. The planet is hidden by interference from the gas clouds, and many people want to just stop their constant chase in the refugee fleet. Roslin points out that if the Colonials could find the planet, the Cylons could just as easily. Also, life on the planet would be harsh. Tory points out that Baltar is pandering to the people's hopes, giving them false ones that they greatly desire, while Roslin is pointing out justifiable fears that they simply don't want to hear; people will vote their hopes.
*Shocked by his attack on Cally, Chief Tyrol has asked for religious counselling, and meets with a priest named [[Brother Cavil]]. Tyrol explains that it is because he doesn't believe that psychoanalysis works, but is himself a very [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies|religious]] man. Cavil is somewhat loose and sarcastic in his counseling, leaving Tyrol a little pertubed and confused. Cavil tells Tryol that he must look for the problem in himself and questions Tyrol, and when Tyrol denies that he has been having disturbing dreams, Cavil can see through it, so Tyrol relents.
*For weeks, Tyrol has been having the recurring dream that he walks onto the upper level of the hangar deck, climbs over the railing and kills himself by jumping to his death. Cavil says it is because Tyrol has a subconscious desire to kill himself. Tyrol explains that he has had the gnawing worry since [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|''Galactica''-Sharon]] died that he might himself be a [[Cylon agent|Cylon]]. ''Galactica''-Sharon never really knew she was a Cylon, even up to the point that she died, but reported strange fears that something bad was going to happen and she had to stop herself: how would Tyrol, or anyone else, really ''know'' if they were a Cylon sleeper agent or not? Tyrol is frightened by the prospect.
*Cavil assured Tyrol that he is not a Cylon, sarcastically quipping that he knows because he is a Cylon himself, and hasn't seen Tyrol at any of the meetings. Tyrol feels ashamed to go back to the hangar deck crew after the accident, but Cavil assures him that they're the only family he has left, and they love him. Cally most of all.
*At the final presidential debate, Baltar's charisma and hopes of finally giving up their run from the Cylons starts to pull him ahead in the polls, and Roslin's warnings that this planet is not safe and determination to keep searching for Earth do not gain wide support. Baltar apparently wins the final debate. Roslin tells him to go frak himself.
*The Raptors rescuse mission makes the final jump to Caprica. [[Raptor 612]] is lost because it jumps right into the middle of a mountain. The remaining Raptors continue on, then Starbuck, Helo, Sharon and the marines continue on foot.
*One klick away from the resistance's base camp, they see movement, and find [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] and his whole group. Starbuck is overjoyed to see him, but Anders warns that the Cylons are right behind them; the resistance's base was ambushed that morning, and half of Anders' men are dead.
*The [[Colonial Marine Corps|marines]] and [[Resistance (movement)|resistance]] members start coming under Cylon artillery fire. After running briefly, they reach a point where the arc of the artillery shells is right above them, and cannot hit them. However, the artillery's killzone is now between them and retreat back to the Raptors. To be continued...

== Questions ==
*Did [[Raptor 612]] Jump "into" the mountain by crashing into it, or did they jump ''inside'' of it?
**RDM confirms in the podcast that by "jumped into the mountain" it doesn't mean "they jumped close to it and thus crashed", it means, exactly like a Star Trek transporter accident, that they materialized from the Jump into solid rock, "half-phased".
*If Raptor 612 was destroyed by jumping into a mountain, how was their transponder still operational?
**Perhaps that part of the Raptor was in an air pocket in the rock, and thus not phased into it. RDM says in the podcast that the Raptor Jumping into the mountain wasn't like "swapping" spatial matter between two points: like a teleporter accident, the Raptor and its crew were horrifically merged into the rock itself.
*Is the previous distance limit for Colonial [[FTL]] jumps on account of something like mathematical calculations? Have any of the other Raptors, besides the lead Raptor, been modified, or do they just receive coordinates from the one Raptor with Caprica-Boomer and the Cylon device?
**No, or at least, not entirely. Based on Starbuck's jump back to Caprica in a Cylon Raider and other comments made in season 1, the Cylon FTL drive is far more capable to begin with. Colonial navigation systems would not be designed to take advantage of a markedly superior FTL drive because there would have been no need. Even by using the Cylon navigation computer, with its much better calculations, they needed ten jumps to return to Caprica.
*Does the fleet have the resources to sustain long term settlements on the newly found planet?
**Shelter could be taken care of by canabalizing the ships of the fleet for building materials. But the question of how many homes can be made for how many of the 49,000+ survivors simply by recycling the materials availible still remains. Even if ''Galactica'' and ''Pegasus'' themselves were recycled, would there be enough materials, or would the Battlestars still be necessary for orbital defence?
**The planet itself may have natural resources—in "[[Scar]]", a mining ship collected metals to build new Vipers, so mining the planet itself may be possible. In this case it would be unnecessary to cannibalize the fleet.
*Zarek says the people have been cooped up in metal boxes since the attack. How literally does he mean this—for instance, are people living inside converted cargo holds as they were in the original series?
**Judging from RDM's podcast, he just meant being stuck inside of cramped ships in general, i.e. even the ''Galactica'' crew (who have dedicated crew quarters).
*How was the Raptor able to jump back to the fleet if their FTL navigation computer was not working properly?
**Racetrack's navigator says she gave him the coordinates, so it is possible that she relayed them incorrectly rather than a malfunction in the computer. Alternatively, they could have tracked down any fault and repaired it. In any case, the coordinates for the Raptor's original jump point would probably still be in the system.

== Analysis ==
*Timeline:
**Zarek states that the people of the fleet have been "cooped up in metal boxes for nine months", putting this episode not long after "[[Downloaded]]".
**At the beginning of the episode, the election is still "two weeks away".
**At the beginning of the first debate, the announcer states Balter declared his bid for presidency a month ago.
**At the conclusion of the second debate, the polls will open in three days.
*[[Margaret Edmonson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmonson]] is apparently assigned to ''Pegasus'' at present, since Dualla refers to her mission as the "Pegasus survey team".
**She could have been flying a ''Pegasus'' Raptor.
*[[Lee Adama]] is now wearing a wristwatch, perhaps [[Barry Garner]]'s from "[[The Captain's Hand]]".
*It is safe to emerge from a hyperspace jump inside a planetary atmosphere at 2km, but not within solid rock. For comparative purposes, the density of air at 2km in an earth-like atmosphere is about 1 kg/m3, while the density of silica rock is about 2,600 kg/m3.
*''BattlestarWiki'' has been trying for some time to reconcile on the [[Timeline (RDM)|Timeline]] the apparent jump from 3 months to 6 months that occured at the beginning of Season 2.5, a part of which was that back in "[[Bastille Day]]" it was stated on screen that the presidential elections were due in '''seven''' months. However, over 7 months passed by the end of "[[Scar]]", and there wasn't even talk of the elections until "[[The Captain's Hand]]". In the podcast for this episode, Ron Moore appears to reveal that he has simply forgotten this point. When he refers to the fact that "elections were promised back in "Bastille Day"", Moore says that he remembers that the line in "Bastille Day" was '''nine''' months, not seven. This is more than a one-episode goof, becuase one month after "Bastille Day" in "[[Colonial Day]]", it was stated that the elections were six months away. In the podcast it seems that Moore is truly and simply mistaken, and there is no explanation for the descrepancy betwen the "seven months after the attack" figures given in "Bastille Day" and "Colonial Day", and the new "nine months after the attack" figure at the end of season 2.5. It is simply a mistake.

== Notes ==
*The re-cap for this episode includes scenes not actually shown in previous episodes—for instance, Starbuck demanding to the dying Roslin circa "[[Epiphanies]]" that they go back and rescue the Caprica resistance.
*When Baltar sarcastically quips that Zarek (and Six) expect him to just sit around and wait for "The Hand of God" to deliver them something they can use to their advantage against Roslin, he is of course referencing the previous episode titled "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]". Ironically, Baltar considers himself the hand of God in that episode. Further, a "chance serendipitous event" (namely the discovery of an inhabitable planet) does deliver them something they can use against Roslin.
*Likewise, when Apollo wishes Starbuck "good hunting", there's a tone of concern, and he seems to pause before saying it, as if Apollo meant to say something else but changed his mind. This may be a reference to "[[33]]", when Starbuck tells Apollo to say "good hunting" instead of "be careful out there".
*This episode has many parallels to "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]" and "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]": the discovery of an inhabitable planet, Gaeta plotting a Raptor jump dangerously close to a planet surface, Starbuck's use of captured Cylon technology to return to Caprica, the intercutting of several plot threads in the teaser, a character contemplating suicide out of fear of being a Cylon, and difficulties between Helo and Sharon. In addition, Tyrol's assault of Cally is something of a parallel to Helo shooting Sharon in "Kobol's Last Gleaming"—in both cases, a man driven to rage physically and emotionally wounds a woman who loves him. The opening teaser is also simmilar to "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]", a montage introducing the various plot threads of the episode played against a haunting theme that spans the entire teaser.
*When Lt. Gaeta takes his shirt off in the head, he can be seen to still be sporting the tiger tatoo that we first saw in "[[Final Cut]]".
*The combined Colonial fleet had 20 Raptors in this episode, of which 1 was destroyed before the end. Previously, ''Galactica'' was confirmed to have at least 5 left ([[The Farm]]), with the suggestion that there may be as many as 8 ([[Resistance]]). Doubtlessly, ''Pegasus'' brought at least an equal number of Raptors with it when it joined the Fleet, but 20 is still a high number for this. Perhaps a disproportionately large number of Raptors escaped to [[Ragnar Anchorage]] during the [[Miniseries]]. Or perhaps like in real life with American Nimitz class Aircraft Carriers that carry a larger number of fighter aircraft compared to older Forrestal class carriers, the Pegasus, being a larger and more modern Battlestar than Galactica, it has the capability to carry a larger complement of Raptors. Unlike Vipers, Raptors do have FTL drives. We actually saw Boomer and Helo escaping the destruction of their Viper squadron, because Raptors do not engage in frontline combat, and because they have an extenstive ECM suite which Helo was trying to jam the Cylon virus signal with. Indeed, [[Crashdown]] was a Raptor ECO, but Boomer stated that he was not from ''Galactica'', but a refugee "from Triton" (either a battlestar or a planet).
**Also, more Raptors could have been built with extra materials after the Viper squadrons were manufactured ([[Scar]]).
*The jump error that landed the Raptor in the nebula was attributed to a "firmware error" by the crew. This may be an indication that there was firmware upgrade to deal with the increased FTL jump distances provided by the Cylon computer.
*When Cavil is consoling Tyrol's fears that he might unknowingly be a Cylon sleeper agent, just like Boomer was, Tyrol asks him how he can know for sure. Cavil sarcastically answers that it's because maybe he's a Cylon, and he hasn't seen Tyrol at any of the meetings: Number Six also sarcastically remarked to Baltar in the Miniseries that [[Aaron Doral]] could not be a Cylon, because she hadn't "seen him at any of the good Cylon parties"...but of course, Doral actually ''was'' a Cylon, implying that Cavil is truly more than he seems.
*Tory actually paraphrases the title of this episode aloud, saying that the new planet offers people in the Fleet the hope that they can "lay down their burdens" and stop running.
*During the premiere airing of this episode on the Sci-Fi Channel, before the Teaser segment a "Parental Discretion Is Advised" black and white message was inserted. At the end of the Teaser, Tyrol beats Cally to a bloody pulp.
*Lee Adama is now wearing a new uniform as Commander of ''Pegasus'': it is a Commander's uniform, denoted by the new red trim (with gold inner trim), and it has a white "''Pegasus'' BSG-62" patch, replacing his old gold "''Galactica'' BSG-75" patch.
*Dualla's photo of Adama is the left half of a group shot with Kara Thrace and his brother Zak Adama. The original belongs to Thrace, and she has kept it in her locker on ''Galactica'' since the miniseries.
*Dualla refers to "rivers of milk and honey" on the newly discovered planet. The phrase "land of milk and honey" is a common epithet for the promised land in the Torah, appearing in Exodus 3:8, 3:17, 13:5, 33:3, Leviticus 20:24, Number 13:27, 14:8, 16:13-14, and Deuteronomy 6:3.
*Commander Lee Adama is seen eating noodles with chopsticks in his quarters, just like his father in "[[33]]", etc. Interesting note Adama sticks his chopsticks inside the bowl of noodles so that the chopsticks stand up in the bowl, which is a sign of bad luck to the Chinese. Non-asians that use chopsticks frequently do not pay heed to the bad luck superstition, similiar to the Japanese custom of not giving knives as a wedding present for the same reason (bad luck). This is a sign of cultures borrowing from each other piecemeal.
*In the podcast, RDM states that originally instead of Starbuck, Helo, and Sharon leading the other Raptors in another Raptor, they would have been flying in the captured Heavy Raider itself. However, the 2 part season finale went overbudget and cuts had to be made, and the cost of building the Heavy Raider interior was deemed prohibitively expensive. Thus, they bring the Heavy Raider computer/organ with them in a normal Raptor. Moore said he believed that fans "wouldn't miss" an actual appearance by the Heavy Raider.
*Col. Tigh appears in this epsiode twice but doesn't speak a single line.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==
*''Chief Tyrol is worried that like'' Galactica''-Sharon, he could just as well be another Cylon sleeper agent:''
:'''Chief Tyrol:''' How do you know I'm human?
:'''Brother Cavil:''' Oh, well, maybe because I'm a Cylon and I've never seen you at any of the meetings.

*'''Brother Cavil:''' Do you know how useless prayer is? Chanting, and singing, and mucking about with old half-remembered lines of bad poetry? And you know what it gets you? Exactly nothing.

*'''Gaius Baltar:''' I'm not sure if you're aware, [[Tom Zarek|Tom]], but the mob isn't usually in the habit of electing ungodly apostates who denegrate people of faith.

== Official Statements ==

*''In an interview in issue #197 of TV Zone, James Callis (Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]]) said:'' "the arrival of the Pegasus has helped galvanize our characters into who they are and who they’re trying to be. These later episodes [in Season 2] also further drive home the fact that the Galactica’s crew could be exterminated by its own kind, meaning that Humans are potentially far more terrifying an enemy than perhaps the Cylons."

== Guest Stars ==

*[[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]]
*[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0874001/ Michael Trucco] as [[Samuel Anders]]
*[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001777/ Dean Stockwell] as [[Brother Cavil]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Aaron+Douglas Aaron Douglas] as CPO [[Galen Tyrol]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Nicki+Clyne Nicki Clyne] as Specialist [[Cally]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Leah+Cairns Leah Cairns] [[Margaret Edmonson|Racetrack]]
*Rekha Sharma as [[Tory Foster]]
*Alisen Down as Jean Barclay
*Colin Lawrence as "Skulls" McCall
*[http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0443286/ David Kaye] as [[James McManus]]

{{Episode List}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: RDM]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Rymer]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Ronald D. Moore]]

Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I

2006-03-06T17:06:45Z

Stealthboy: /* Questions */

{{Episode Data|
Image = [[Image:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I.jpg|300px]]
| Title= Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I
| Series= [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|The Re-imagined Series]]
| Season= [[Season 2 (2005-06)|2]]
| Episode= 19
| Guests= [[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]] [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0874001/ Michael Trucco] as [[Samuel Anders]]
| Writer=[[Ronald D. Moore]]
| Story=
| Director=[[Michael Rymer]]
| Production=
| Rating=
| US Airdate=March 3, 2006
| UK Airdate=
| DVD=
| Population= 49,579
| Prev= [[Downloaded]]
| Next= [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]
}}

== Overview ==
''As the presidential election looms just weeks away, the accidental discovery of a habitable planet sparks debate in the Fleet: Colonize? Or keep seeking Earth? Meanwhile, Starbuck leads a rescue mission of Raptors back to Caprica to save Anders and his resistance''.

== Summary ==
*[[William Adama|Adama]] has finally given [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] the go-ahead to plan a rescue mission to [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Caprica]]. On [[Pegasus (RDM)|''Pegasus'']], she lays out their plan: they will use ''all'' of their remaining [[Raptor|Raptors]] — 20 in all — and use the navigation computer/organ from one of the captured [[Heavy Raider]]s to calculate the Jumps back to Caprica. Using this, they can make it back to Caprica in a series of 10 Jumps. They will go undetected when they reach Caprica by making a risky jump to just a few klicks above the surface, within the atmosphere itself, below [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] [[DRADIS]]. Their biggest obstacle to doing this was actually interfacing with the Heavy Raider's navigation "computer", but now they will take [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|''Caprica''-Sharon]] along in Starbuck's Raptor with it; Sharon will directly interface with the computer (by inserting a fiber-optic cable into her arm, like she did in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]").
*The presidential election is two weeks away, and [[Laura Roslin|Roslin]] is ahead in the polls. The only real arguments that [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] has against her that give him any ground are when he accuses her of pandering to the religious fundamentalists (i.e. her recent policy switch on abortion) and guiding the Fleet based on the scriptures alone. Conferring with his campaign manager [[Tom Zarek]] in his lab, Baltar realizes he'll need more than this to turn the fleet againt Roslin. Meanwhile, Roslin is doing a little rehearsal ritual for the presidential debate with Adama in his quarters.
*On the hangar deck, [[Galen Tyrol|Chief Tyrol]] is sleeping on the floor and twitching convulsively, having a nightmare. [[Cally]] searches around the deck to find him, and is confused by the sight when she finds him. Cally tried to wake Tyrol up, but snapping right out of his nightmare he attacks Cally, punching her in the face until she is a bloody pulp and unconscious. Realizing where he is and what's going on, Tyrol is horrified, and carries Cally in his arms to sickbay.
*[[Lee Adama|Apollo]], now commander of ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', has conflicting feelings about Starbuck's mission to rescue Anders, but wishes her good luck in finding him.
*[[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and ''Caprica''-Sharon travel in Starbuck's Raptor. Sharon is still deeply depressed about her daughter [[Hera]]'s seeming death, and has been shutting herself out. Helo tells her that he won't let her do that and won't give up on her. Sharon tells him that she has the feeling that something bad will happen in the future; not on the mission to Caprica, but something else.
*On the very first jump out of the series of ten, [[Margaret Edmonson|Racetrack]]'s Raptor jumps to the wrong set of coordinates. Starbuck's orders were to keep going ahead until they lose 3 Raptors, so they go on ahead, while Racetrack prepares to follow her orders to return to [[Galactica (RDM)|''Galactica'']] if separated. Her Raptor jumped into the middle of a gas cloud with a lot of interference, and upon clearing it, a new planet is found. Scanners indicate that it is a human-habitable planet. She returns to ''Galactica'' with news of the discovery.
*The crew goes over the scans from the planet; it can sustain human life and subsequent scouting shows that in contains animal and vegetative life; they could indeed settle here. However, it is a cold world and somewhat harsh; only a temperate band around the equator covering about 20% of the surface would be habitable. After some prodding from [[Six]], Baltar and Zarek realize that they can use this as their wedge issue to turn the people against Roslin: offer them permament colonization on this planet.
*[[Tory Foster|Tory]] goes over new poll numbers with Roslin on [[Colonial One]]: Baltar has been gaining ground with his new offer to stop running from the Cylons and stay here. The planet is hidden by interference from the gas clouds, and many people want to just stop their constant chase in the refugee fleet. Roslin points out that if the Colonials could find the planet, the Cylons could just as easily. Also, life on the planet would be harsh. Tory points out that Baltar is pandering to the people's hopes, giving them false ones that they greatly desire, while Roslin is pointing out justifiable fears that they simply don't want to hear; people will vote their hopes.
*Shocked by his attack on Cally, Chief Tyrol has asked for religious counselling, and meets with a priest named [[Brother Cavil]]. Tyrol explains that it is because he doesn't believe that psychoanalysis works, but is himself a very [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies|religious]] man. Cavil is somewhat loose and sarcastic in his counseling, leaving Tyrol a little pertubed and confused. Cavil tells Tryol that he must look for the problem in himself and questions Tyrol, and when Tyrol denies that he has been having disturbing dreams, Cavil can see through it, so Tyrol relents.
*For weeks, Tyrol has been having the recurring dream that he walks onto the upper level of the hangar deck, climbs over the railing and kills himself by jumping to his death. Cavil says it is because Tyrol has a subconscious desire to kill himself. Tyrol explains that he has had the gnawing worry since [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|''Galactica''-Sharon]] died that he might himself be a [[Cylon agent|Cylon]]. ''Galactica''-Sharon never really knew she was a Cylon, even up to the point that she died, but reported strange fears that something bad was going to happen and she had to stop herself: how would Tyrol, or anyone else, really ''know'' if they were a Cylon sleeper agent or not? Tyrol is frightened by the prospect.
*Cavil assured Tyrol that he is not a Cylon, sarcastically quipping that he knows because he is a Cylon himself, and hasn't seen Tyrol at any of the meetings. Tyrol feels ashamed to go back to the hangar deck crew after the accident, but Cavil assures him that they're the only family he has left, and they love him. Cally most of all.
*At the final presidential debate, Baltar's charisma and hopes of finally giving up their run from the Cylons starts to pull him ahead in the polls, and Roslin's warnings that this planet is not safe and determination to keep searching for Earth do not gain wide support. Baltar apparently wins the final debate. Roslin tells him to go frak himself.
*The Raptors rescuse mission makes the final jump to Caprica. [[Raptor 612]] is lost because it jumps right into the middle of a mountain. The remaining Raptors continue on, then Starbuck, Helo, Sharon and the marines continue on foot.
*One klick away from the resistance's base camp, they see movement, and find [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] and his whole group. Starbuck is overjoyed to see him, but Anders warns that the Cylons are right behind them; the resistance's base was ambushed that morning, and half of Anders' men are dead.
*The [[Colonial Marine Corps|marines]] and [[Resistance (movement)|resistance]] members start coming under Cylon artillery fire. After running briefly, they reach a point where the arc of the artillery shells is right above them, and cannot hit them. However, the artillery's killzone is now between them and retreat back to the Raptors. To be continued...

== Questions ==
*Did [[Raptor 612]] Jump "into" the mountain by crashing into it, or did they jump ''inside'' of it?
**RDM confirms in the podcast that by "jumped into the mountain" it doesn't mean "they jumped close to it and thus crashed", it means, exactly like a Star Trek transporter accident, that they materialized from the Jump into solid rock, "half-phased".
*If Raptor 612 was destroyed by jumping into a mountain, how was their transponder still operational?
**Perhaps that part of the Raptor was in an air pocket in the rock, and thus not phased into it. RDM says in the podcast that the Raptor Jumping into the mountain wasn't like "swapping" spatial matter between two points: like a teleporter accident, the Raptor and its crew were horrifically merged into the rock itself.
*Is the previous distance limit for Colonial [[FTL]] jumps on account of something like mathematical calculations? Have any of the other Raptors, besides the lead Raptor, been modified, or do they just receive coordinates from the one Raptor with Caprica-Boomer and the Cylon device?
**No, or at least, not entirely. Based on Starbuck's jump back to Caprica in a Cylon Raider and other comments made in season 1, the Cylon FTL drive is far more capable to begin with. Colonial navigation systems would not be designed to take advantage of a markedly superior FTL drive because there would have been no need. Even by using the Cylon navigation computer, with its much better calculations, they needed ten jumps to return to Caprica.
*Does the fleet have the resources to sustain long term settlements on the newly found planet?
**Shelter could be taken care of by canabalizing the ships of the fleet for building materials. But the question of how many homes can be made for how many of the 49,000+ survivors simply by recycling the materials availible still remains. Even if ''Galactica'' and ''Pegasus'' themselves were recycled, would there be enough materials, or would the Battlestars still be necessary for orbital defence?
**The planet itself may have natural resources—in "[[Scar]]", a mining ship collected metals to build new Vipers, so mining the planet itself may be possible. In this case it would be unnecessary to cannibalize the fleet.
*Zarek says the people have been cooped up in metal boxes since the attack. How literally does he mean this—for instance, are people living inside converted cargo holds as they were in the original series?
**Judging from RDM's podcast, he just meant being stuck inside of cramped ships in general, i.e. even the ''Galactica'' crew (who have dedicated crew quarters).
*How was the Raptor able to jump back to the fleet if their FTL navigation computer was not working properly?
**Racetrack's navigator says she gave him the coordinates, so it is possible that she relayed them incorrectly rather than a malfunction in the computer. Alternatively, they could have tracked down any fault and repaired it. In any case, the coordinates for the Raptor's original jump point would probably still be in the system.
*Out of curiosity, why are these questions even valid? Can we please stop trying to make this into Star Trek and just accept the human drama? Everything doesn't have to be explained. That's what makes it compelling. All IMHO, of course.

== Analysis ==
*Timeline:
**Zarek states that the people of the fleet have been "cooped up in metal boxes for nine months", putting this episode not long after "[[Downloaded]]".
**At the beginning of the episode, the election is still "two weeks away".
**At the beginning of the first debate, the announcer states Balter declared his bid for presidency a month ago.
**At the conclusion of the second debate, the polls will open in three days.
*[[Margaret Edmonson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmonson]] is apparently assigned to ''Pegasus'' at present, since Dualla refers to her mission as the "Pegasus survey team".
**She could have been flying a ''Pegasus'' Raptor.
*[[Lee Adama]] is now wearing a wristwatch, perhaps [[Barry Garner]]'s from "[[The Captain's Hand]]".
*It is safe to emerge from a hyperspace jump inside a planetary atmosphere at 2km, but not within solid rock. For comparative purposes, the density of air at 2km in an earth-like atmosphere is about 1 kg/m3, while the density of silica rock is about 2,600 kg/m3.
*''BattlestarWiki'' has been trying for some time to reconcile on the [[Timeline (RDM)|Timeline]] the apparent jump from 3 months to 6 months that occured at the beginning of Season 2.5, a part of which was that back in "[[Bastille Day]]" it was stated on screen that the presidential elections were due in '''seven''' months. However, over 7 months passed by the end of "[[Scar]]", and there wasn't even talk of the elections until "[[The Captain's Hand]]". In the podcast for this episode, Ron Moore appears to reveal that he has simply forgotten this point. When he refers to the fact that "elections were promised back in "Bastille Day"", Moore says that he remembers that the line in "Bastille Day" was '''nine''' months, not seven. This is more than a one-episode goof, becuase one month after "Bastille Day" in "[[Colonial Day]]", it was stated that the elections were six months away. In the podcast it seems that Moore is truly and simply mistaken, and there is no explanation for the descrepancy betwen the "seven months after the attack" figures given in "Bastille Day" and "Colonial Day", and the new "nine months after the attack" figure at the end of season 2.5. It is simply a mistake.

== Notes ==
*The re-cap for this episode includes scenes not actually shown in previous episodes—for instance, Starbuck demanding to the dying Roslin circa "[[Epiphanies]]" that they go back and rescue the Caprica resistance.
*When Baltar sarcastically quips that Zarek (and Six) expect him to just sit around and wait for "The Hand of God" to deliver them something they can use to their advantage against Roslin, he is of course referencing the previous episode titled "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]". Ironically, Baltar considers himself the hand of God in that episode. Further, a "chance serendipitous event" (namely the discovery of an inhabitable planet) does deliver them something they can use against Roslin.
*Likewise, when Apollo wishes Starbuck "good hunting", there's a tone of concern, and he seems to pause before saying it, as if Apollo meant to say something else but changed his mind. This may be a reference to "[[33]]", when Starbuck tells Apollo to say "good hunting" instead of "be careful out there".
*This episode has many parallels to "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]" and "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]": the discovery of an inhabitable planet, Gaeta plotting a Raptor jump dangerously close to a planet surface, Starbuck's use of captured Cylon technology to return to Caprica, the intercutting of several plot threads in the teaser, a character contemplating suicide out of fear of being a Cylon, and difficulties between Helo and Sharon. In addition, Tyrol's assault of Cally is something of a parallel to Helo shooting Sharon in "Kobol's Last Gleaming"—in both cases, a man driven to rage physically and emotionally wounds a woman who loves him. The opening teaser is also simmilar to "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]", a montage introducing the various plot threads of the episode played against a haunting theme that spans the entire teaser.
*When Lt. Gaeta takes his shirt off in the head, he can be seen to still be sporting the tiger tatoo that we first saw in "[[Final Cut]]".
*The combined Colonial fleet had 20 Raptors in this episode, of which 1 was destroyed before the end. Previously, ''Galactica'' was confirmed to have at least 5 left ([[The Farm]]), with the suggestion that there may be as many as 8 ([[Resistance]]). Doubtlessly, ''Pegasus'' brought at least an equal number of Raptors with it when it joined the Fleet, but 20 is still a high number for this. Perhaps a disproportionately large number of Raptors escaped to [[Ragnar Anchorage]] during the [[Miniseries]]. Or perhaps like in real life with American Nimitz class Aircraft Carriers that carry a larger number of fighter aircraft compared to older Forrestal class carriers, the Pegasus, being a larger and more modern Battlestar than Galactica, it has the capability to carry a larger complement of Raptors. Unlike Vipers, Raptors do have FTL drives. We actually saw Boomer and Helo escaping the destruction of their Viper squadron, because Raptors do not engage in frontline combat, and because they have an extenstive ECM suite which Helo was trying to jam the Cylon virus signal with. Indeed, [[Crashdown]] was a Raptor ECO, but Boomer stated that he was not from ''Galactica'', but a refugee "from Triton" (either a battlestar or a planet).
**Also, more Raptors could have been built with extra materials after the Viper squadrons were manufactured ([[Scar]]).
*The jump error that landed the Raptor in the nebula was attributed to a "firmware error" by the crew. This may be an indication that there was firmware upgrade to deal with the increased FTL jump distances provided by the Cylon computer.
*When Cavil is consoling Tyrol's fears that he might unknowingly be a Cylon sleeper agent, just like Boomer was, Tyrol asks him how he can know for sure. Cavil sarcastically answers that it's because maybe he's a Cylon, and he hasn't seen Tyrol at any of the meetings: Number Six also sarcastically remarked to Baltar in the Miniseries that [[Aaron Doral]] could not be a Cylon, because she hadn't "seen him at any of the good Cylon parties"...but of course, Doral actually ''was'' a Cylon, implying that Cavil is truly more than he seems.
*Tory actually paraphrases the title of this episode aloud, saying that the new planet offers people in the Fleet the hope that they can "lay down their burdens" and stop running.
*During the premiere airing of this episode on the Sci-Fi Channel, before the Teaser segment a "Parental Discretion Is Advised" black and white message was inserted. At the end of the Teaser, Tyrol beats Cally to a bloody pulp.
*Lee Adama is now wearing a new uniform as Commander of ''Pegasus'': it is a Commander's uniform, denoted by the new red trim (with gold inner trim), and it has a white "''Pegasus'' BSG-62" patch, replacing his old gold "''Galactica'' BSG-75" patch.
*Dualla's photo of Adama is the left half of a group shot with Kara Thrace and his brother Zak Adama. The original belongs to Thrace, and she has kept it in her locker on ''Galactica'' since the miniseries.
*Dualla refers to "rivers of milk and honey" on the newly discovered planet. The phrase "land of milk and honey" is a common epithet for the promised land in the Torah, appearing in Exodus 3:8, 3:17, 13:5, 33:3, Leviticus 20:24, Number 13:27, 14:8, 16:13-14, and Deuteronomy 6:3.
*Commander Lee Adama is seen eating noodles with chopsticks in his quarters, just like his father in "[[33]]", etc. Interesting note Adama sticks his chopsticks inside the bowl of noodles so that the chopsticks stand up in the bowl, which is a sign of bad luck to the Chinese. Non-asians that use chopsticks frequently do not pay heed to the bad luck superstition, similiar to the Japanese custom of not giving knives as a wedding present for the same reason (bad luck). This is a sign of cultures borrowing from each other piecemeal.
*In the podcast, RDM states that originally instead of Starbuck, Helo, and Sharon leading the other Raptors in another Raptor, they would have been flying in the captured Heavy Raider itself. However, the 2 part season finale went overbudget and cuts had to be made, and the cost of building the Heavy Raider interior was deemed prohibitively expensive. Thus, they bring the Heavy Raider computer/organ with them in a normal Raptor. Moore said he believed that fans "wouldn't miss" an actual appearance by the Heavy Raider.
*Col. Tigh appears in this epsiode twice but doesn't speak a single line.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==
*''Chief Tyrol is worried that like'' Galactica''-Sharon, he could just as well be another Cylon sleeper agent:''
:'''Chief Tyrol:''' How do you know I'm human?
:'''Brother Cavil:''' Oh, well, maybe because I'm a Cylon and I've never seen you at any of the meetings.

*'''Brother Cavil:''' Do you know how useless prayer is? Chanting, and singing, and mucking about with old half-remembered lines of bad poetry? And you know what it gets you? Exactly nothing.

*'''Gaius Baltar:''' I'm not sure if you're aware, [[Tom Zarek|Tom]], but the mob isn't usually in the habit of electing ungodly apostates who denegrate people of faith.

== Official Statements ==

*''In an interview in issue #197 of TV Zone, James Callis (Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]]) said:'' "the arrival of the Pegasus has helped galvanize our characters into who they are and who they’re trying to be. These later episodes [in Season 2] also further drive home the fact that the Galactica’s crew could be exterminated by its own kind, meaning that Humans are potentially far more terrifying an enemy than perhaps the Cylons."

== Guest Stars ==

*[[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]]
*[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0874001/ Michael Trucco] as [[Samuel Anders]]
*[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001777/ Dean Stockwell] as [[Brother Cavil]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Aaron+Douglas Aaron Douglas] as CPO [[Galen Tyrol]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Nicki+Clyne Nicki Clyne] as Specialist [[Cally]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Leah+Cairns Leah Cairns] [[Margaret Edmonson|Racetrack]]
*Rekha Sharma as [[Tory Foster]]
*Alisen Down as Jean Barclay
*Colin Lawrence as "Skulls" McCall
*[http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0443286/ David Kaye] as [[James McManus]]

{{Episode List}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: RDM]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Rymer]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Ronald D. Moore]]