Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Messengers/Archive 1

2011-01-25T01:22:49Z

Shimel: /* Starbuck */ not sure how to redirect pages (Messenger Leoben to here)

:''For discussions prior to March 14, 2007, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Virtual_beings&oldid=110913 see this revision.]''

== Major revision ==

This article was strewn with theories and [[BW:FANW|fanwankery]] that cluttered the article. With the revelations of season 3, what is known about the nature of the virtual Six and Baltar reduces the probability of earlier speculation. Recent contributions have been more of possibility that is hardly supported by aired content, and reading the article as a whole was nearly impossible. As well, the article repeated informaation already present in the episode guides or a more relevant article. I have rewritten the article to keep sole focus on the origins, motivations and behavior of the virtual beings, removing all previous irrelevant, incorrect or otherwise inappropriate content on their nature or history.

As this article deals with the virtual beings related to Cylon activity, I eliminated the text on other character visions; they are more suited for a separate article to keep topics from blending.

With major revisions like this, there is always a possibility that something significant was lost. Contributors should feel free to add in significant notes of the virtual beings, but please do not repeat every instance of the being's presence or interject speculation that is not supported with episode content. The article, in my opinion and recommendation, should focus more on what they do to the actual characters and less on their nature until the show reveals more of their origin. Again, please be careful about excessive speculation; "theories" per se are not acceptable on Battlestar Wiki. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:34, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

== Virtual Baltar Episodes ==

In the major edit, I botched the episode citation for virtual Baltar's visit to C-Six in her jail cell. One or both of the episode citations I noted are wrong. Corrections to this information are appreciated. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:54, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
:The visit is in "The Woman King". That's where the two kiss and they wonder what's going on.--[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:00, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

About this: "Neither character has revealed the presence of these images to each other or any other character as of the episode, "[[The Woman King]]" (where the virtual Baltar makes an appearance)." 
Does this mean that it is the first instance where another character (here Roslin) really wonders what one of them is doing? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

:It should say "Neither character has revealed the existence (...)." Other characters have witnessed the strange behavior, but to my memory, only Roslin has verbally wondered. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

== Baltar and his Virtual Baltar ==

Virtual Baltar has appeared to Baltar. -- [[User:LicensedLunacy|LicensedLunacy]] 16:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that Baltar seeing himself is just a unique way to convey he is thinking/ talking to himself, considering his options. [[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]]

: That might be a good way to look at it... Actually, it might be another part of his psyche he's talking to. It can be said that Virtual Six is the part of his subconscious mind, trying to deal with the fact that he's responsible for so many people's deaths in another light. But that's a topic for discussion at a [http://www.battlestarforum.com forum]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 00:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

==Virtual Leoben==
Shouldn't we add virtual Leoben? He's sort of important I'd say, and is not a part of Kara...--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:34, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

:That's a good question. I would say "yes" but that also introduces other dream-related visions such as the ones I removed. I recommend "no" as the article should limit itself to visions that are experienced by characters in real-time and not while unconscious (sleeping or otherwise). That's my opinion and is open for more scrutiny. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
:No. There is a good chance that Head-Six and Head-Baltar are somehow Cylon-related. That chance is not so great with Maelstrom Leoben, since IMHO it's more likely just a representation of her own subconscious and not in any way whatsoever related to the real Leoben (it even says so in the episode). --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:04, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
::Maybe we should add at least a note about Maelstrom Leoben and A Day in Life Carolanne, though? 12:37, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
:::I concur with Serenity. The virtuals are definitely a unexpected (and unrevealed) side-effect of Cylon technology, that much is certain. The virtual Leoben ''isn't'' a Cylon, and doesn't appear in real time. He needs a separate article (and deserves it). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:00, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
::::I've created a [[virtual Leoben]] article and updated the relevant pages where he it cited. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:00, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
::::I have to disagree that the virtual Six and Baltar are definitely, or even probably, a result of Cylon technology. Their nature is as unknown as the virtual Leoben's. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:37, 1 November 2007 (CDT)
: Why wouldn't Leoben also be listed here. There's an entire page o the site called "Messenger Leoben." [[User:Shimel|Shimel]] 07:09, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

==Cylon Tech==
Isn't this line: "Since the effect appears to occur only between Caprica-Six and Gaius Baltar, it is possible that their visions are an unknown side-effect of Cylon technology," complete specualtion? I think it should be removed, but before doing so, I thought I'd check to make sure there wasn't any concensus I wasn't aware of. If it happened with the other six members of the [[Significant Seven]] (or even a majority of them) I wouldn't have as much of a problem, but as it's only happened with Six and Baltar I think it's out of place. If anything, a more appropriate stateent would be something like it's an unkown side-effect of cylon-human intimacy.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 21:09, 3 June 2007 (CDT)
:The way you phrase is still speculation, but is more precise to what we know, and would be more appropriate. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]]
::I completely agree, and I'd rather remove it outright, but was trying to be diplomatic. I'm going to remove it completely.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 10:25, 4 June 2007 (CDT)

== Virtual Ellen? ==

How is she different from Bill's hallucination of [[Carolanne Adama]] in "[[A Day in the Life]]"? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 18:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah, it could just be a normal hallucination. This might be more, but until it is confirmed, pushing her appearance so clearly into the direction of the virtual beings is POV. I reworded the section to make it more neutral and less certain. The term "Virtual Ellen" shouldn't be used so freely and always in quotation marks. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:It depends. I have a feeling we'll see more of her in future episodes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
::Tigh could even be [[projection|projecting]] her onto Caprica Six (seems a bit the wrong way round to me :D) but that doesn't make her a being like V.Six or V.Baltar who are all mystical or whatnot. Ellen's words and actions all seem to be what Caprica said and did anyway, wheras V.Six and V.Baltar are separate entities. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:::That's definitely a possibility. Maybe doing a "hallucinations" article would suffice... which would be a bit ironic, given that this article itself came from an article on Cylon based hallucinations, if I recall correctly. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
::::You do. We used to describe hallucinations here, only to discover they were all virtual beings, and renamed the article accordingly. With Adama and Tigh hallucinating about their wives, that may not have been that good a choice (in hindsight). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 23:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::I suggest we move the "Virtual Ellen" section into the [[Ellen Tigh]] article until we have a reason to believe she is anything other than a hallucination/projection. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::I think it would be more appropriate here or in the Saul Tigh article. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

==Virtual?==

I think the fact that we've seen direct physical intervention by "Virtual" Six onscreen in [[Escape Velocity]] throws the whole "virtual" concept right out the window. Could explain the sudden disappearance of [[Shelly Godfrey]] and [[Gina]] after their respective acts, as well. One could also infer some serious intervention on the part of "Virtual" Leoben during Starbuck's "death" but that's even further speculation. Anyway, just a thought I felt was worth mentioning. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 20:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:She only interacted with Baltar. We've seen her push him into a wall or mirror before, so we know that she can force him to move in a certain way. I don't see how that makes her any less "virtual," since she exists in his mind. And Gina didn't suddenly dissapear, she blew herself up. [[User:INH|INH]] 02:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The footage clearly shows intervention ... he's held up and forced towards the marines, moving quite unnaturally. Yes, Gina blew herself up, but I'm referring to how she removed herself from ''Pegasus'' after killing Cain. I'd love some episode reference for "We've seen her push him into a wall or mirror before" so I can review it. Thanks. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 02:28, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
: Right, she's still virtual, and we don't really see whether or not Baltar's feet make it off the ground. I'm sure they did some wire work in the scene, but we don't really know what we're supposed to believe... This is where a podcast would definitely help. The only one that disappears unexpectedly is Shelly, and she could have easily flushed herself out an airlock, given how they aren't guarded. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 02:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
: While it's the most extreme seemingly physical interaction so far, this isn't really too different from what happens in ''[[w:Fight Club|Fight Club]]'' for example, and not completely impossible to do alone. While it seems that he is held in the air, it's not actually shown. Could be either. Sure, it might be more, but it's not ''that'' certain. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::IMO anything which happens while Virtual Six is visible should be considered unreliable. In other words, I think that only movements which Baltar could not plasibly make under his own power occuring while Virtual Six is not in the shot should be considered conclusive evidence of physical interaction. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 08:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::I don't at all like the implication of an invisible "Six" physically lifting Baltar, but we have to acknowledge that setting up the shot the way they did was not at all trivial, and must have been done for a reason. Whether this was intended to be dramatic (and thus, demands a literal interpretation) or comic (and thus, just a sight gag) is unclear - it's a mirthless episode, but Olmos's previous episodes have demonstrated a taste for comedy. If it we have to interpret it literally, well, that's a challenge. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
:::To counter the point, had Baltar been lifted "off the ground", we'd see a variety of shocked reactions from those who witnessed this otherworldly event. So not only do we have to gauge what we see Baltar doing, but we also have to look at the entire picture. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::I dont understand how this is in question. IIRC from the podcast for the episode..James Callis did all the movements under his own power..if the actor could do them, why is it in question the the character couldn't do them? Also from the podcast, Ron complained that the intent was not to look like he was lifted but under his own power. --[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

== Virtual > Head ==

Pretty much every official source I see (including RDM's podcast) uses the phrases "Head-Six", and "Head-Baltar" rather than "Virtual". Shouldn't we follow suit? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 20:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
:Lacks gravitas, but does seem more standard. What does RDM call them in the podcasts? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::He calls them Head-Six and Head-Baltar. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 05:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
:We can use both. And note the terminology here. But there isn't really much point in changing it throughout the wiki. I don't think it's too confusing to use both for some variety. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::We should use both. "Head" is more colloquial but also has a loose ungrammatical and perjorative nature I find weird. I see "virtual" around the fansphere just as well. For this article and throughout the wiki, "virtual" should be used but references to "head" (yes, please) should be redirects to here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Such redirects are already in place :) -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::I don't agree that we should use "Head-Six" and "Head-Baltar". Frankly, this already presupposes that these are figments of a person's imagination; virtual is more ambiguous, and has a wider-range of meanings than "head" (which is another way of saying "glorified imaginary friend". So, Ron uses it... then again, he and Eick have diluted themselves into believing that "Hero" fits snugly into continuity when we all know that isn't the case. So... time to put on those critical thinking caps. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 21:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

== Virtual Cat ==

I find it curious that [[Romo Lampkin]]'s virtual cat from [[Sine Qua Non]] isn't listed. Is this an oversight or is it deliberate? There can be no question that the cat was indeed virtual. That cat had been dead for a long enough time for Lee to question its time of death. The cat is never seen by Lee. Romo is the only one to interact with the cat, and then, only by voice.
--[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:28, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
::Because there's a difference between a virtual being and a mere hallucination. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 04:37, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
:::I havent seen this distinction in the show. No virtual being has given any character any information that they didnt already know, or could have reasonably deduced by themselves. --[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
::The Virtual Six lifted Baltar off the ground in a manner that was physically impossible for him to do on his own. There are other examples too. The virtual beings aren't mere hallucinations. The presence of extra-corporeal entities and/or spiritual powers in this show is all but spelled out in giant letters for the audience. [[User:Blue Rook|Blue Rook]] 08:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Not so. Baltar had no way of knowing that Hera would arrive or of her connection to the Opera House. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
::::How could have a cylon known about the birth of hara? And if james callis could do the moves without outside assistence, so could baltar. And havent you noticed that when Ron Moore hits you over the head with a concept, its often wrong? And this still doesn't rule out a virtual cat. --[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 07:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::What Cylon? Virtual Six isn't a Cylon. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:55, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
:: I agree that it is a virtual being (or the virtual being as it has not been disproved that they are different, and when questioned on it the subject it was deflected, possibly the Cylon God). My reasoning for this is that every encounter with one has moved the story on often with a purpose (e.g. Baltar's Six being pissed at him for comforting Gina then telling him “God will not forgive this sin”, Caprica's Baltar for telling her to find the humans and then Baltar's Six telling him it is the reckoning when the ships land on New Caprica). In this case it forced Romo to be pissed at the loss of his cat and force Lee to take up the mantle of President and help the truce to occur. [[User:Chris etd|Chris etd]] 03:27, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

== These Angels Making Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. '' {{unsigned|Walabio}}

:It is what it is, Walabio. :) For further discussion about the episode that's not relevant to the quality and content of the article's editorial content, perhaps you should redirect (and reproduce) your thoughts on the [http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=3050 talk thread] for the episode on the Battlestar Forum. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Rename to "Messengers"==
Hey guys, I was thinking, given the mention that RDM referred to them as "the messengers" in the podcast for No Exit and the fact that they are confirmed to be supernatural, without necessarily being angels or demons, that perhaps we should change the article name to more accurately reflect what they are.

"Virtual beings" has worked until now, because we didn't know if they were truly something supernatural, but since we now know they aren't, and we have a fairly decent term (from a good enough source) I think it might be fair to say that it's time to change to the more accurate term. Thoughts? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 02:10, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:: Actually, no they have not been "confirmed to be supernatural." All we know is that they are messengers of an entity that does not like to be called "God." -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 06:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:: Good idea. The term "messengers" is certainly more semi-official than "virtual beings", a term which doesn't actually make that much sense. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:29, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
::: Strictly, the in-show term for them is Angels. This is what H6 calls herself, this is what Baltar calls them. In the writers room they were "head characters" and then called messengers in a podcast. Nothing is a clear winner, though as Caprica adds VR to the galactiverse, the term virtual may become less than ideal.--[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 00:16, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

It's been a while, but I think the issue still stands: I think we should rename this page to "Messengers" or some variation of that. Yes, within the show they're always referenced as Angels, outside of it, however, "Messengers" is the most accurate post-revelation term applied to them, since the creators explicitly state that they don't consider them "angels" or "demons".

As for the "head character" terminology, it seems this was mainly used because of the mystery surrounding them (even to the writers back then, I guess), but it no longer really applies. In any case "Virtual beings" is certainly not the best of the available terms, as it is not only completely fan-made, but it also carries certain connotations which make it seem like a less than partial fanmade term at that.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 20:20, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

:Honestly, given the unfolding of ''Caprica'', usage of the word "virtual" gives rise to connotations of the technological context of an avatar rather than a spiritual/incorporeal/supernatural one and I think steering away from such confusion should be the primary goal in a name-change. Personally, I've always preferred the application of the word "spectre" (you've got to admit that "Spectre Six" has a nice ring to it), but I nevertheless feel as though "Messengers" weighs the heaviest seeing as how every one of these categorised beings have indeed been messengers of a various sort.--[[User:Mars|Mars]] 17:20, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

:: In reviewing the above arguments and what's been introduced thus far in ''Caprica'', I do have to agree that the term "virtual" should be dropped. Further, I concur with Mars that the term "Messengers" is for the best, since that's what they really are anyway. As for Angels, well... that's a bit up in the air. It's the first in-show term for these beings, I'll grant you that, but they don't exactly fit the whole idea—or definition, either—that angels are "benevolent" creatures. Still, let's not confuse anything here and go ahead and move this to "Messengers" with proper redirects from terms like "angels" and "head characters," and all that. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 17:40, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

::: I concur. "Angel" derives from Latin and Greek words meaning "messenger" anyway. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:47, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

== Virtual Baltar doesn't work for God ==

This paragraph is not strictly true and has been interpreted:

The two discuss the cycle of life and Virtual Baltar chides Virtual Six for calling the being they work for God, as it apparently doesn't like being called that. Virtual Baltar has the series last line, which is a response to Virtual Six's stern look: "silly me.... silly, silly me." The two then walk off together into present day New York City. 

I suggest something more general and more literal because the last scene could also be interpreted as such:

The two discuss the cycle of life and Virtual Six declares she is optimistic about the future. Upon being asked why by Virtual Baltar, she declares that its a mathematical probability and THAT is part of God's plan. To which he jokingly appears affronted, saying menacingly; "You know he doesn't like that name.", insinuating that mathematical probability is actually part of his bosses, the Devil's, plan. When she retorts by way of a look of disdain, he feigns an apology, saying; "silly me .... silly, silly me."

even though it may be fanwankery, I still believe the former paragraph is an 'interpretation' of the ending, not statement of fact. It could be re-written more generally and literally to avoid interpretation that they BOTH work for God.--
[[User:Barstuck|Barstuck]] 19:08, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
*I don't think we should change it, I think that's the most simple and basic interpretation that the scene could have. Not to mention, of course, that RDM confirmed in an interview that the scene was meant to make the audience question the nature of "the Cylon God", so they were both definitely talking about the same entity, regardless of what this is. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:57, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
** I suppose we have to expect there to be information from outside the show on the show's own wiki. But I like how wikipedia stated it. More loose - more open to the viewer's interpretation, and a satisfying factual explanation. I'll leave it at that. Thanks.--[[User:Barstuck|Barstuck]] 00:01, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't know which wikipedia article you may be referring to, but after looking over the article I realized that there are quite a few things that feel a bit....decisive, given the nature of their revelation. The main thing is that Moore specifically mentions wanting them being ambiguous beings working for an ambiguous power, yet the article doesn't necessarily reflect that, especially by referring to them as "angels" (which is, I'll admit, the only thing HS ever called herself, and what other characters called them near the end).
: Do note that that conversation was truncated from the original script, which was shown in the readthrough video in Eick's podcast. The "silly me" line refers to Head Baltar's question as to what the stakes are in a bet over whether humanity destroys itself again.--[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 00:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Still, this connects more with my point above of changing the article title (and the references to "angels" and "virtual beings") into "Messengers", which, as mentioned before, is the "most official" and honestly most accurate term that would also serve to maintain the ambiguity. The other factor affecting this would be "God", but honestly there's little we can do with that and I think that the perviously suggested change might be enough to make it, without removing the references to them being "angels" by other characters (though not forgetting their ambiguity in the text). --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 01:54, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

== Starbuck ==

Shouldn't Starbuck be included somewhere here? Her disappearance seemed to indicate that once she died and returned, she too was a messenger (her page even links to the Messengers page). [[User:Shimel|Shimel]] 19:52, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
:i agree. [[User:Pst001|Pst001]] 09:41, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
::That stuff about Messenger Leoben being fundamentally different from the others is obviously not true now, so feel free to merge him in, I say. In regards to Starbuck, they made it intentionally ambiguous whether she was human, could be considered a messenger, or something related to a messenger but not quite the same. They've said as much when asked by fans. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:30, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
::: Starbuck is separate from the so-called "Messengers." No one knows exactly what she is, including Ron Moore. (Great planning, Ronnie.) So, keep it separate. Leoben is a different matter, and should be merged in. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:43, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
: Sounds good. I removed the link on Kara's page that led here, but I'm not sure how to redirect Leoben's page here (been awhile since I did any serious wiki editing), and I don't see it in the help section. [[User:Shimel|Shimel]] 01:22, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Kara Thrace

2011-01-25T01:15:23Z

Shimel: removing link to messengers page as discussion states she shouldn't be listed there

:''This article discusses the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]] character with the pilot callsign of "Starbuck." For information on Kara Thrace's counterpart in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]], see [[Starbuck (TOS)]].''

:''For Kara Thrace's parents, see [[Dreilide Thrace]] and [[Socrata Thrace]].''

{{Character Data
|photo= Kara Thrace.jpg
|age=
|colony= [[Caprica (RDM)|Caprica]]
|birthname= Kara Thrace
|callsign= Starbuck
|seen= Miniseries
|death= Viper destroyed near gas giant, crashing on [[Earth (RDM)#Arrival_and_Ruins|Cylon Earth]] ([[Maelstrom]]/[[Sometimes a Great Notion]]); Mysteriously reappears ([[Crossroads, Part II]]); Vanishes in Tanzania on [[Earth (RDM)#A_New_Earth|pre-historical 2nd Earth]] ([[Daybreak, Part II]])
|parents= [[Socrata Thrace]]† (mother) [[Dreilide Thrace]]† (father)
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status= Married to [[Samuel Anders]]† (formerly engaged to [[Zak Adama]]†)
|rank=Captain
|role= Viper pilot; flight instructor; ''Galactica'' [[Commander Air Group|CAG]]; angel-prophet; captain of ''[[Demetrius]]''
|actor= [[Katee Sackhoff]] [[Erika-Shaye Gair]] (child)
|cylon=
|serial = 462753 <ref name="serial"> Confirmed number from QMX dogtags given to them by the studio.</ref>
}}
'''Kara "Starbuck" Thrace''' is a gifted [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]] pilot, with an attitude that has hindered her career in the Colonial Fleet. However, [[William Adama]] has confidence in Thrace's military skills, and she greatly aids the Fleet inside and out of the cockpit. She is the last [[Commander Air Group|Commander, Air Group]] (CAG) of ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'', and mysteriously vanishes in a region that will later be known as Tanzania on [[Earth (RDM)#A_New_Earth|the second Earth]] shortly after the Fleet's arrival on the planet ([[Daybreak, Part II]]).

== Background ==

[[Image:YoungKaraThrace.jpg|thumb|left|A young Kara Thrace in a vision ([[Maelstrom]]).]]
*Thrace's mother [[Socrata Thrace|Socrata]] was a former [[Colonial Marine Corps]] sergeant major. She beat her daughter so frequently that Thrace came to accept pain as a way of life ("[[Flesh and Bone]]", "[[Maelstrom]]").
*Her father [[Dreilide Thrace|Dreilide]] was a pianist and composer. Kara seems to have been closer to him than with her mother ([[Valley of Darkness]], [[Someone to Watch Over Me]]) until he left them.
*Thrace left home to join the [[Colonial Fleet (RDM)|military]]. During her training, she was disciplined for insubordinate conduct towards [[Mike Gibbons|superior officers]].
*She was a talented [[pyramid]] player ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]), and was up for the pros, but an injured knee took her out of contention. However, she discovered a passion and skill for being a fighter pilot ([[Podcast:The Hand of God]]).
*One of her early posts was aboard the battlestar ''[[Triton (RDM)|Triton]]''. While there, she offended Commander [[Myron Ruth]], who initiated court-martial proceedings against her, but the charges were later dropped ([[The Son Also Rises]]).
*Thrace eventually returned to flight school as an instructor, where she fell in love with one of her students, [[Zak Adama]]. Despite his poor performance, she allowed him to pass his final check flight although he failed three of the required maneuvers ([[Act of Contrition]]).
*Thrace lost Zak Adama when he was killed during a routine mission shortly after graduating. [[Lee Adama]] ("Apollo"), Zak's elder brother, blamed their father for Zak's death, and Thrace, feeling guilty, kept quiet. She met [[William Adama]] shortly after the accident, and the two formed a strong rapport and stood together at the funeral ([[Act of Contrition]]).
*Thrace resigned as an instructor and returned to the Fleet as an operational pilot on the [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]'' under the command of William Adama, where she served for some two years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Cylon attack]] on the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]]. Before the Cylon attack, she was second-in-command to the [[CAG]], [[Jackson Spencer]].
*She has a rarely-used run-down apartment in [[Delphi]] that overlooked a parking lot, and a Colonial version of a [[Wikipedia:Humvee|Humvee]] which she and Helo use to escape the city and get to the country where she meets her Samuel Anders. She was also an avid painter, and her apartment is cluttered with her paintings and a [[Starbuck's Poem|poem]] written on a wall ([[Valley of Darkness]]). The apartment was neater when Thrace was with Zak Adama, although her [[Eye of Jupiter|mandala]] wall painting pre-dates that relationship. ([[Daybreak, Part I]])
*Thrace hides the fact that she is deeply spiritual. She frequently prays to the [[Lords of Kobol]], particularly [[Aphrodite]] and [[Artemis]] in dire situations ([[Miniseries]], "[[Flesh and Bone]]", "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]").

==Character History==

=== Galactica and Pre-New Caprica ===

*Thrace's attitude quickly runs her afoul of Colonel [[Saul Tigh]], ''Galactica's'' [[executive officer]]. Their open mutual dislike of one another leads to the point where blows are exchanged, with Thrace ending up in the brig. After the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Cylon attack]] she is released from the brig and returns to duty as Viper pilot.
*Thrace manages to keep two of three nuclear missiles from striking ''Galactica'' in their first Cylon sortie, and saves Lee from doom in an innovative maneuver in the [[Battle of Ragnar Anchorage]].
*Her skills in saving Lee brings her grudging respect from Colonel Tigh, but she is unable to accept his offer of the olive branch—an act that will have repercussions for her later ([[Miniseries]]).
[[image:Bastille_Day-Starbuck_Boxey.jpg|thumb|right|Thrace as acting [[CAG]] with [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]] as assistant ([[Bastille Day]]).]]
*Thrace participates in a hostage rescue mission aboard the ''[[Astral Queen]]''. Following the successful mission, Thrace tries to mend fences between herself and Colonel Tigh with a toast (consisting of water), apologizing in much the same way as Tigh himself had tried after their initial escape from [[Ragnar Anchorage]]. But Tigh rejects Thrace's apology, stating that her flaws are professional, while his flaws were personal ([[Bastille Day]]).
*Thrace eventually admits her secret about Zak Adama to William Adama himself, an act that brings their close friendship almost to the breaking point ([[Act of Contrition]]).
*During a surprise encounter with Cylons during [[nugget]] training, Thrace destroys several Cylon Raiders, but her ship is damaged and tumbles towards a small red moon with an unbreathable atmosphere. With her Viper in a fatal flat-spin, Thrace is forced to eject from her Viper ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]).
*Thrace (nursing a damaged knee) repairs the downed Cylon Raider found on the inhabitable moon and returns to ''Galactica'', giving the Fleet a vital piece of Cylon fighter technology for study and use.
*The recovering Thrace, off flight status, is asked by Commander Adama to plan a special attack on a Cylon [[tylium]] refinery. The tactical planning role is not something she relishes, and she frequently shows resentment towards others for her condition ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).
*During Thrace's undesired interrogation of a Cylon prisoner, a copy of a known [[Humanoid Cylon|Cylon]] named [[Leoben Conoy]], she uses some drastic acts to try to extract the information from the humanoid Cylon ([[Flesh and Bone]]).
[[image:Starbuck-Kobols_Last_Gleaming_pt2.jpg|thumb|right|Thrace retrieves the [[Arrow of Apollo]] ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]).]]
*Thrace is assigned to plant a nuclear device on board a [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]] in orbit around [[Kobol (RDM)|Kobol]]. She disobeys orders to retrieve the [[Arrow of Apollo]] at the request of President Roslin, since she discovered Commander Adama's speech concerning knowledge of the location of Earth was a lie. She [[FTL|jump]]s to Caprica ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]), landing in [[Delphi]] in the captured Cylon [[Cylon Raider (RDM)|Raider]], depriving the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] of the valuable military asset.
*In the [[Delphi Museum of the Colonies]] with the Arrow, she is violently attacked by a copy of [[Number Six]]. Despite being heavily outmatched in the fight, Thrace luckily defeats the Cylon.
*At the museum, she reunites with [[Karl Agathon]], whom she thought dead, and discovers [[Sharon Agathon|a second copy]] of [[Sharon Valerii]], realizing instantly that the woman is a Cylon.
*"Caprica Valerii", fearing for her child, steals Thrace's Raider. In exasperation, Thrace only mutters: "Bitch took my ride" ([[Scattered]]). Like Agathon, Thrace is left with no way to return to the Fleet unless she could find her Raider or another Cylon spacecraft, as only Cylon navigational computers are powerful enough to plot jumps over such large distances..
*Thrace berates Agathon's love for the Caprica copy of Valerii. Thrace finds the keys of her surplus military utility vehicle in her old jacket in her old apartment. Thrace has a ride again, if only to move more efficiently about Caprica ([[Valley of Darkness]]).
[[Image:ThraceAndersResistance.jpg|thumb|right|Thrace and Anders playing Pyramid on Caprica ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]).]]
*Thrace and Agathon meet a [[Caprica Resistance|resistance movement]] on Caprica. Thrace and [[Samuel Anders]] strike up a rapport as fellow [[Pyramid (RDM)|Pyramid]] players and end up as lovers.
*During planning to steal a [[Heavy Raider]], Thrace is shot in a military action, waking up in a hospital on Caprica. Thrace is told by her doctor, [[Simon]], that Anders died from wounds he suffered in getting Thrace to safety.
*Thrace discovers that Simon is working with a [[Number Six|known humanoid Cylon]]. She overhears that the next day he plans to extract her ovaries for use in the Cylon's attempts to study and create a hybrid Cylon/human embryo. Simon also makes the mistake of calling Thrace by her callsign, Starbuck, which she had never revealed.
*Staggering and in pain, Thrace kills Simon and escapes the hospital, but not before clocking a Six copy with a fire extinguisher and destroying the local farm power supply, mercy-killing [[Sue-Shaun]] and several other women in the facility.
*Another Simon copy appears just as the Resistance attacks the facility. The second Simon, now revealed as a humanoid Cylon himself, is immediately killed by the Resistance, but a squad of [[Cylon Centurion]]s appear and pins the Resistance down. Luckily, [[Sharon Agathon|Caprica-Valerii]] swoops in with a stolen [[Heavy Raider]], destroys the Centurions and flies the Resistance and Thrace out of harm's way.
*Thrace promises to Anders that she'll [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I|return with a rescue mission]] for the remaining survivors. Anders returns the Arrow of Apollo to Thrace, which he hid on the resistance grounds for safekeeping ([[The Farm]]).
*Thrace, Agathon and the pregnant "Caprica Valerii" land on the ''[[Astral Queen]]'' in the Heavy Raider. Finding the [[Laura Roslin faction]] in orbit of [[Kobol (RDM)|Kobol]], Thrace is reunited with Lee. He kisses her impulsively, catching Thrace by pleasant surprise, but a tense standoff follows when Lee discovers that another Sharon copy has returned with them. Roslin helps defuse the situation, and Thrace delivers the Arrow of Apollo to the President.
*Temporarily removed from military protocol, Lee playfully teases Thrace by stealing a pyramid ball she took from Caprica. Adama senses her depression about Caprica and tells her that he'd be happy to hear about any problems she had. He also let slip that he loved her, which brightened Thrace's mood to the point where she teased him back about his slip.
*With a team led by Laura Roslin, Lee, and, later, joined by the recovered Commander Adama, Thrace enters the [[Tomb of Athena]] and successfully uses the Arrow of Apollo to activate a hologram that shows constellations of the Twelve Colonies' ancient symbols.
*Thrace realizes that they are on a recreation of Earth. Together with Lee, they locate the Lagoon Nebula, a celestial body known to Commander Adama and Lee, and gather sufficient information to begin an actual course to Earth ([[Home, Part II]]).
*Thrace shows off the impressive stealth abilities of the new [[Blackbird]] fighter in her maiden flight ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).
*With the arrival of ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', Admiral [[Helena Cain]] summarily assigns Thrace (and Lee) to ''Pegasus'' after digesting the reports of ''Galactica'''s officers.
*[[Cole Taylor|The ''Pegasus'' CAG]] removes Thrace from the Cylon recon mission. Lee secretly tells her to use the [[Blackbird]] to take recon photos of the Cylon Unknown ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]).
*Returning from her very successful mission, the [[Blackbird]]'s lack of a Colonial transponder is mistaken for a Cylon [[Raider]] on [[DRADIS]], and Thrace is nearly confronted and shot at by Vipers from ''Pegasus'' and ''Galactica''. After narrowly avoiding certain death by declaring herself a friendly, Thrace transmits her recon photos to ''Pegasus''.
*Admiral Cain is very impressed with Thrace's performance and promotes her to Captain and ''Pegasus'' CAG.
*Thrace is assigned the task of planning the joint attack on the Resurrection Ship, but successfully asks to have Lee on her team, restoring him to flight status.
*After she briefs Cain and Commander Adama on her battle plan, Adama asks Thrace privately to assassinate Cain after the battle is complete. Adama fears that if Cain continues to command, the Fleet would be in mortal jeopardy from Cain's draconian command ([[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]).
*Thrace's battle planning, as before on the [[tylium]] [[The Hand of God (RDM)|mine]], works to near-perfection, with the Resurrection Ship destroyed and its supporting basestars.
*As a result of the battle events, Thrace is left without backup as she walks to the ''Pegasus'' CIC to shoot Cain, obviously afraid and apprehensive. When Commander Adama calls, Thrace slowly moves her hand to her sidearm but, to her relief, Adama does not give the kill order and cryptically instructs her to stand down ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]).
*Thrace and [[Louanne Katraine|Louanne "Kat" Katraine]] are involved in the protection of a mining operation from periodic Raider attacks. One Raider, nicknamed [[Scar (Raider)|Scar]], fuels an intensive rivalry for the pilot's "top gun" honor. Thrace, still depressed over her inability to convince Fleet command to initiate a rescue for Samuel Anders and his resistance, drinks heavily and obsesses over removing Scar from the sky, even at the cost of her life. Fortunately, Thrace realizes the futility of her actions, and works together with Katraine to destroy the remarkably dangerous Raider ([[Scar]]).
*A few weeks later, Thrace takes leave on ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' when she was dragooned into rescuing Lee and several other ''Galactica'' crew and residents after terrorists take them hostage in exchange for the incarcerated [[Sharon Agathon|Sharon Agathon neé Valerii]]. Thrace gathers intelligence on the situation, but her cover is blown. In the retreating firefight, Lee is caught in the crossfire. After the situation is resolved, Thrace intended to sit at Lee's bedside, only to discover that Dualla beat her to it ([[Sacrifice]]).
*Later, Thrace is assigned to ''Pegasus'' as a flight trainer. Though the pilots like her, Commander [[Barry Garner]] does not, eventually confining her to quarters for "insubordination." Following the [[Battle of the Binary Star System|ill-fated rescue and retreat]] from a Cylon ambush (where Thrace leads the fighters) and [[Battle of the Guardian Basestar|after a search, rescue and destroy mission to a Cylon-war era basestar]], Thrace informs Lee—now commander of ''Pegasus''—that she was taking over his old CAG post aboard ''Galactica'', joking that she has a problem with her commander wanting to send her off to get killed ("[[The Captain's Hand]]", "[[Razor]]").
*Thrace gets her wish: the Caprica rescue is approved, and she leads a large Raptor squadron to the planet. The group soon met up with Anders, who reports that their HQ had been destroyed and Thrace's timing was just perfect. A squad of Centurions ambush and pin down the group moments later ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]).
*Still pinned down from attack fire, Thrace and Anders agree to kill each other to avoid capture and internment at a [[Farms|farm]]. But the attack stops, and a [[Cavil|man]] appears, praising the [[Lords of Kobol|Gods]] as he announces that the Cylons not only have ceased fire, but are abandoning the Twelve Colonies. Thrace isn't really surprised to discover that the man, known as Brother [[Cavil]], was a Cylon upon their return to the Fleet.
*Thrace and Anders proceed to get drunk, and host a disastrous encounter with Lee. This apparently led to a rift between the two comrades.
[[Image:Leobenkara.jpg|thumb|right|180px|Leoben with Kara Thrace ([[Exodus, Part I]]).]]
*The evening of the founding of [[New Caprica]], Thrace slept with Lee and proclaimed her love for him as she was uncertain regarding her feelings toward Anders. The following morning she quickly married Anders in a ceremony near the river. This caused a rift between Thrace and Lee that lasted for well over a year ([[Unfinished Business]]).
*Life on New Caprica tempered Thrace, and she often behaved in ways Thrace never would have, including hugging Colonel Tigh and pampering Anders during his bout with an illness.
*She watches in horror at the sudden arrival of hundreds of Cylon ships in the sky over New Caprica. A few of ''Galactica's'' former crew gather near Thrace, looking to her for guidance. She responds the only way she knows how: "Fight 'em until we can't" ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

=== The New Caprica Ordeal and Her Death ===

*After Baltar's surrender of New Caprica, Conoy keeps Thrace prisoner in an apartment located within the Cylon-built [[New Caprica Detention Center]] in an attempt to convince Thrace that she loves him and also convert her to the [[Cylon Religion|Cylon monotheistic religion]]. She repeatedly kills Conoy a total of five times in an attempt to convince him to let her go ("[[Occupation]]", "[[Precipice]]").
*Conoy introduces Thrace to a small child named [[Kacey Brynn|Kacey]], who appears to be approximately two to three years in age, whom he claims is their biological daughter. He explains that the child was created using one of Thrace's extracted ovaries ([[The Farm]]) and his genetic material. Conflicted, Thrace leaves the child unattended, which later results in Kacey falling down the apartment's stairs ([[Precipice]]). After the fall, Thrace begins to change her attitude towards the child and begins to offer affection towards Conoy ("[[Precipice]]", "[[Exodus, Part I]]").
*Upon her return to ''Galactica'' after Admiral Adama's [[Battle of New Caprica|daring rescue attempt]], Thrace heartbreakingly discovers that Kacey was simply another manipulation on Conoy's part — Kacey is merely a human child whom the Cylons had abducted months ago from [[Julia Brynn|their mother]] ([[Exodus, Part II]]).
*Bearing the psychological scars of her four month ordeal with Leoben and Kacey, Thrace is recruited by [[Diana Seelix]] as a last minute replacement juror in the [[Circle]] after Anders' resignation. Thrace's involvement in the Circle precipitates the breakup of her marriage with Anders. Initially wondering about the legality of the tribunal, she is the fifth vote to find [[Felix Gaeta]] guilty of treason and collaboration. Later, when Gaeta is about to be killed in one of ''Galactica''<nowiki>'s</nowiki> [[launch tubes (RDM)|launch tubes]], she demands him to beg for his life. Thrace physically assaults him and goes down the litany of "lies" that Gaeta told her earlier about him helping the [[New Caprica Resistance|insurgency]]. As she does so, [[Galen Tyrol]], one of the Circle's jurors, overhears this and confirms the story. In a sense of confusion after learning that Gaeta was telling the truth, Thrace leaves the launch tube ([[Collaborators]]).
*During a combat exercise between Vipers, Thrace breaks formation and collides with another pilot, forcing an end to the war games and causing Lee to revoke her flight status. Later, at her bunk she is met by Kacey and her mother, whom she dismisses, telling Kacey's mother not to visit her again. In the pilots' rec room, Thrace and Colonel Tigh begin to sow dissent between the survivors of New Caprica and the crew that stayed behind on ''Galactica'', insinuating that those who stayed behind did not suffer like those on New Caprica did, and that the crew of ''Galactica'' took too long to organize a rescue. Admiral Adama, upon learning of this from Karl Agathon, confronts Thrace and Tigh on their behavior. He challenges them to shoot him, as their constant complaining is tantamount to pulling the trigger. When neither do, Adama throws Thrace off her chair and demands that both she and Tigh shape up and move on with their lives. Spurred by Adama's words, Thrace cuts her hair and returns to duty. Later, in uniform, she visits Kacey and her mother on the [[Dogsville|converted hangar deck]] ([[Torn]]).
*Thrace enters an affair with Lee, rekindling their romance on New Caprica ([[Unfinished Business]]). Both Anders and Lee's wife, Lieutenant [[Anastasia Dualla]], are more than vaguely aware of the pair's sexual tension. Lee soon ends the affair and reconciles, but Thrace refuses to give Anders any further attention than a periodic sexual fling.
*Thrace is involved with the defense of the incorrectly called "[[Temple of Five]]" but is severely injured, leaving her rescuer, Dualla, to return them to ''Galactica'' ([[Rapture]]). Agathon recognizes the strange circular [[Eye of Jupiter|mandala]] in the Temple, created 4,000 years before, and its resemblance to a symbol that Thrace painted in her apartment. When shown the symbol, the recovering Thrace is darkly reminded of Leoben's prophesy.
*During refueling operations above a gas giant, Thrace is continually attracted to what she believes is a Cylon contact, which she chases to find a planetary storm that resembles the mandala. She dives into it, almost losing control before coming to her senses and returning.
*Command staff and Thrace question her competency to continue flying, but Lee volunteers encouragement and offers to fly as her wingman on her next [[Combat Air Patrol|CAP]].
*Thrace finds herself attracted by another apparent Cylon contact. As she descended, her Viper is struck by debris and she, while unconscious, experiences a revelation about her mother, [[Socrata Thrace]], and guided through the vision by what looks to be a Leoben copy.
*Starbuck regains consciousness but chooses to continue her descent despite Lee's desperate pleas to ascend. "I'll see you on the other side (...) Just let me go" were her last words as her Viper explodes. A grief-stricken Lee tells [[CIC]] that he did not see any ejection ([[Maelstrom]]).
*While preparing for a Cylon engagement near the [[Ionian nebula]], Lee (who has [[Crossroads, Part I|since left]] the Colonial Military) detects a bogey on [[DRADIS]]. While he searches for the target, Lee finds himself momentarily in a cat-and-mouse chase game with the mysterious target. As Lee attempts to regain sight of the bogey, it positions itself next to his Viper.

=== Return from the Dead and Suspicion ===

*The [[Starbuck's Viper|pristine Viper Mark II]] that comes alongside is flown by Thrace herself. A shocked and confused [[Lee Adama]] (now a civilian) listens to the apparently-resurrected Kara Thrace, who tells him that she has been to [[Earth (RDM)|Earth]] and she has returned to take the Fleet to it ([[Crossroads, Part II]]).
*After the [[Battle of the Ionian Nebula|battle at the nebula]], she returns to ''Galactica'' where everyone is astounded to see her alive. While everyone believed her dead for over two months, only several hours have passed for her. She has returned with recon photography of [[Earth (RDM)|Earth]], but no navigational data or knowledge of how she got there. Further complicating her claim is the fact that her Viper is nearly pristine, as if it had just been built. Despite passing a medical examination by Doctor [[Sherman Cottle]], almost everyone—especially Roslin—thinks she may be a Cylon or part of a Cylon trap, and thus don't believe her. Thrace herself wonders if she could be a Cylon.
*When the Fleet jumps further away from the Ionian Nebula, she experiences headaches and says that she is losing the intuitive feeling of the way to Earth. Desperate to lead the Colonials there, she breaks into Adama's quarters and confronts Roslin at gun point ([[He That Believeth In Me]]).
*Thrace is eventually subdued by [[Colonial Marines]] and imprisoned in the [[brig]]. Lee visits Thrace in the brig and tells her that he believes her. Thrace is happy that he does and they share a kiss before Lee leaves for ''[[Colonial One]]''. Although not sure what to make of her claims, Admiral Adama releases her later, and gives her command of ''[[Demetrius]]'', and a crew including [[Karl Agathon]] and Samuel Anders, telling her to try to find Earth ([[Six of One]]).
*Thrace irritates her crew by frequent, unexplained course changes and rarely leaving her quarters, where she holes herself up to study star charts. When her husband confronts her about her command style and their marriage, she tells him that she is not the same person he married and tries to throw him out of her cabin. However, when Anders holds her, she tells him that she wants to have sex in order to feel something. Afterwards, she says that she feels distanced from her body and the events around her ([[The Ties That Bind]]).
* When a [[Leoben Conoy]] copy comes aboard ''Demetrius'' with the offer of an alliance with the Cylons, a power struggle among the crew breaks out when Thrace orders to jump to his baseship ([[The Road Less Traveled]]). The fight ends with Gaeta getting shot in the leg by Anders. After standing down, Thrace decides to accompany Conoy with a small team. On his baseship she meets the Cylon [[Hybrid]], who repeats the [[first Hybrid]]'s [[The Destiny|prophecy]] ([[Razor]]) and gives her the next task: join the Cylons to unbox [[Number Three]] to learn what she knows of the Final Five ([[Faith]]).
* After the unboxing, Thrace reacts with shock and disbelief when she learns that her husband is a Cylon. She investigates the [[Starbuck's Viper|Viper she returned in]] and notices that it receives a strange signal, giving her a direct bearing to Earth. Her discovery stops the imminent execution of Colonel Tigh and leads to a truce with the [[Cylon Civil War|Cylon rebels]]. After arriving at Earth, Thrace is part of the first group on the surface, but finds only a destroyed city ([[Revelations]]).

=== The Thirteenth Colony and the Search for a New Home ===
*Thrace and [[Leoben Conoy]] explore the devastated Earth trying to find the source of the signal. They find pieces of wreckage belonging to a [[Viper (RDM)|Colonial Viper]]—the [[Viper 8757|same Viper]] that Thrace [[Maelstrom|flew into the gas giant]]. Finally, they come upon the cockpit of the crashed Viper, with its pilot still inside. Thrace is horrified to discover that the carcass inside the cockpit is hers. Thrace reveals to Conoy that the [[Hybrid]] aboard the rebel baseship called her the "Harbinger of Death." Conoy has no explanation for any of this and flees the scene, leaving Thrace alone to wonder who or what she really is. Thrace later retrieves the dog tags and wedding ring from the body. She then cremates the body and returns to ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''. She does not tell anyone what she has discovered ([[Sometimes a Great Notion]]).
*After ''Galactica'' leaves Earth, Thrace is still trying to come to terms with her discoveries there. [[Felix Gaeta]], who is unhappy about the Fleet's alliance with the [[Cylon (RDM)|Cylons]] and for the events leading up to that point (including a [[The Face of the Enemy|certain revelation]] about his role on [[New Caprica]]), decides to pick a fight with her. Gaeta accuses Thrace of collaborating with the Cylons, while Thrace retorts that Gaeta is just bitter because [[Faith|he lost his leg]]. Gaeta makes a thinly-veiled threat against Thrace, who responds by telling him she isn't afraid to beat up a cripple. Thrace then storms off ([[A Disquiet Follows My Soul]]).
*A withdrawn Thrace later has an altercation with [[Brendan Costanza|Brendan "Hot Dog" Costanza]]. She teases him about his unexpected fathering of [[Nicholas Tyrol]]. Costanza is unamused, angrily retorting that Thrace slept with half the Fleet herself and has nothing to show for her efforts. This hits a nerve and Thrace throws a bowl of food at a retreating Costanza.
*An alarm goes off and Thrace is ordered by [[Noel Allison|Noel "Narcho" Allison]] to evacuate the area. Thrace is suspicious and when she presses Allison for more information, he snaps that no one even knows what she is any more.
*Thrace turns to see a group of marines and civilians led by [[Charlie Connor]] run past her, and she follows them. She sees the group break into a weapons locker and arm themselves. She hears Connor giving his men orders to take the [[hangar deck]].
*Thrace rushes back to her barracks and grabs her weapons. She then tries to warn the CIC, but Gaeta blocks her calls. Realizing that Gaeta is also involved, Thrace takes off for the hangar deck.
*She arrives at the hangar deck just in time to rescue [[Lee Adama]] from Connor and his men, who are being assisted by [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]] and [[Hamish McCall|Hamish "Skulls" McCall]]. Thrace kills one of the marines and wounds Skulls, forcing the others to back off. She and Lee then hurry away.
*Thrace and Lee take refuge inside a storage compartment. Lee doesn't think they can defeat the mutiny alone. Thrace responds by kissing him. She then says that this is the first time in weeks that she feels right.
*Thrace and Lee head for the CIC. They find that the mutiny has spread all across the ship. They arrive at Admiral Adama's quarters, where they meet [[Laura Roslin]]. After learning of the mutiny, Roslin decides that she must come out and address the Fleet. However, the ship's communications are down, and the only working [[wireless]] transmitter on the ship is in [[Gaius Baltar]]'s possession.
*Thrace, Adama, and Roslin make it to Baltar's compartment, where they find [[Galen Tyrol]] organizing a defense. Tyrol tells them that Admiral Adama has been arrested and is being escorted to the brig. Tyrol also tells them about a secondary storage airlock they can use to escape the ship. Thrace and Adama head off to rescue the admiral.
*At the brig, they find that [[William Adama]] and [[Saul Tigh]] have already escaped custody. They have also taken the rebel marine, [[Allan Nowart]], prisoner. Thrace tries to kill Nowart, but Adama thwarts her. As Nowart flees, Thrace argues that the mutineers are no longer his men, and as such are the enemy and that they can't afford to take prisoners.
*Thrace, Tigh and the Adamas arrive at the secondary storage airlock, where they find Tyrol, Roslin and Baltar waiting. A [[Raptor]] piloted by an [[Eight]] docks. After Roslin and Baltar board the Raptor, Thrace, Lee and Tyrol head off to continue the fight against Gaeta and [[Thomas Zarek]]'s forces ([[The Oath]]).
*Lee and Thrace head off to free the captives held in the brig, while Tyrol goes to sabotage the ship's FTL drive. They take out the mutineers guarding the brig and free Tigh, [[Sharon Agathon]], [[Karl Agathon]], [[Hera Agathon]], [[Caprica Six]] and [[Samuel Anders]].
*During the escape, a firefight ensues and Anders is shot in the back of the head by a mutineer, who was believed dead. He is not killed but is in dire need of medical attention. Thrace yells at the others to go without her and she starts dragging Anders towards the infirmary.
*Thrace eventually exhausts herself trying to carry Anders and she collapses. Marine [[Parr]] escorting [[Romo Lampkin]] appears; Thrace attempts to shoot Parr, but her gun is empty— however, Lampkin suddenly stabs the marine twice in the neck with a pen, killing him.
*Thrace asks Lampkin to help her carry Anders to the infirmary. Lampkin is reluctant but eventually agrees to help ([[Blood on the Scales]]).
*In the immediate aftermath of the mutiny, Thrace learns from Doctor [[Sherman Cottle]] that the bullet is still stuck in Anders' skull. Anders' suppressed memories of his Cylon life back on Earth are also triggered. To Thrace's disappointment, Anders does not have an explanation as to who she really is or how she apparently came back from the dead.
*Cottle manages to remove the bullet, which he gives to Thrace. However, when Thrace goes to speak with Anders, she discovers that he has zero brain activity—which the medical personnel are unable to explain ([[No Exit]]).
*Thrace is later part of a joint Cylon-Colonial CAP which escorts [[Raptor 702|a Raptor]] carrying [[Ellen Tigh]] and [[Sharon Valerii|Sharon "Boomer" Valerii]] onto ''Galactica''.
*Thrace is later seen in [[Joe's Bar]] drinking and toying with the bullet removed from Anders' skull. She and Tyrol have a brief discussion about Valerii, who is being held in the brig ([[Deadlock]]).
*Thrace gets a drawing of what seems to be stars from Hera and later visits Joe's Bar where she helps piano player [[Slick]] with the music he's composing. There she reveals that she used to play piano as a girl with her father until he left and then stopped and she had a song she used to play that made her happy. She realizes that Hera's drawing is of the notes for that song and she and Slick start playing it together. The music turns out to be [[The Music|the same music that activated the memories]] of the so-called [[Final Five]]. Slick, who was a manifestation of her father, disappears and Thrace later goes to Anders in the hope of finding out the reason she knew of the Music and its meaning, but is unsuccessful.
*When Admiral Adama comes to see Anders—now acting as ''Galactica's'' Hybrid—to find out the location of [[The Colony]], Thrace reveals to him that she has tried to make sense out of the notes by assigning numbers to them, but has had no luck in understanding it. Adama tells her he knows who she is: she's his daughter. Later she and Adama spread red tape down the hanger deck to create a line for people to cross one way or the other to show whether or not they volunteer for the rescue mission for Hera. Thrace stays on the volunteers side of the line and doesn't move the whole time having made her choice.
*During [[Battle of The Colony|the battle]], she leads a strike force that includes both Agathons into The Colony through Raptors. They encounter Sharon Valerii who gives them back Hera before being killed by Sharon Agathon. Thrace's team meets up with Lee's and they retreat to ''Galactica'', which has its nose inside the Colony as their Raptors have been destroyed.
*Thrace helps defend the ship and after an agreement is reached with Cavil, takes damage reports on their forces alongside Lee. After things go badly and the Colony starts to fall into the black hole with ''Galactica'', Thrace—the nearest person to the [[FTL]] console—is ordered to jump them away. Thrace doesn't know the rendezvous coordinates and, after Adama makes it clear that it doesn't matter, is inspired to input the numbers she assigned to [[The Music]]'s notes as the coordinates and jumps ''Galactica'' there. According to Thrace, Thrace jumps them to "the watchtower," which turns out to be the singular moon in orbit around another planet that the Colonials later dub [[Earth (RDM)|Earth]].
*Thrace says goodbye to Anders before he flies the Fleet into the sun, destroying ''Galactica'' and the other ships, and later says her final goodbye to William Adama. Then she says her final goodbye to Lee Adama, having fulfilled [[The Destiny|her destiny]] to bring the Fleet to the second Earth. She disappears while Lee is talking about his dreams, leaving Lee surprised.

==Lords of Kobol, Hear My Prayer==

Despite her tough, rebellious exterior, Thrace is deeply spiritual and possesses a great deal of faith in the [[Lords of Kobol (RDM)|Lords of Kobol]]. She usually prays in moments of mourning or desperation, such as when she thinks Lee is dead ([[Miniseries]]), when she is trapped on a desolate moon with a broken knee and low oxygen ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]), and when she discovers she's in Cylon captivity ([[The Farm]]). This spirituality is put to the test as a series of events lead her towards a mysterious destiny.

==The Destiny==
{{mainarticle|The Destiny}}

From early in her life, Kara Thrace has been guided through her mother's actions for a special role in life, a plot point that begins with a [[Leoben Conoy]] copy in the Season 1 episode, "[[Flesh and Bone]]". In "[[Maelstrom]]", the character dies, but reappears as a guide for the Fleet at the end of Season 3.

A Cylon [[First Hybrid|Hybrid]], speaking to Major [[Kendra Shaw]] moments before their deaths, warns her that Thrace is the herald of the apocalypse and the harbinger of death, that she would lead the human race to its end, and that she is not to be followed ([[Razor]]). Similarly, another [[Hybrid]] describes her as the harbinger of death, and she would lead them to salvation and destruction ([[Faith]]).

This becomes the case, as she leads ''Galactica'' (and the Fleet) to a second, new planet the Colonials dub "Earth." There, both Colonials and both races of Cylon (the Kobollian-based "[[Final Five]]" and the remaining models from the "[[Significant Seven]]") are saved. However, as their blend in with the native humans on the new Earth, the distinctive natures of Colonial human and Cylon creations blur and merge. In a sense, the blurring results in the "death" of both races as a new human race begins. [[Hera Agathon]]'s body, a perfect human/Cylon merging, is later represented as the Mitochondrial Eve for the humans on the New Earth ([[Daybreak, Part II]]).

==Notes==
*On the Sci-Fi Channel's preview for season 2.5 (US), Katee Sackhoff is quoted as saying that Starbuck is "the best Viper pilot...EVER."
*[[Wikipedia:Thrace|Thrace]] was a region in south-eastern Europe that was heavily influenced by the ancient Greeks and was eventually conquered by [[Wikipedia:Philip II of Macedonia|Phillip II of Macedonia]]. Thracians were considered by most to be the most ferocious fighters and were often highly paid mercenaries for Greek kings.
*Thrace may have been named after [[w:Thrax (mythology)|Thrax]], the son of [[w:Ares|Ares]], the god of war, who was said to reside on the Thracian plain in Greek mythology.
*After auditioning for the role of [[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]], [[Grace Park]] was asked by director [[Michael Rymer]] to audition for the role of Starbuck, and she was actually one of two finalists up for the role (the other obviously being [[Katee Sackhoff]], who got the part). Ultimately Park was cast as [[Sharon Valerii|Sharon "Boomer" Valerii]].
*In a TV Guide [http://online.tvguide.com/newsearch/detail.aspx?id=4371595&sourcetype=S&progseriesparentid=4371595&tvobjectid=191395&keyword=Battlestar+Galactica&referrer=search1 photo shoot] at the BSG studios, Katee Sackhoff explained that the [[tattoo]] that Starbuck bears on her left arm is a wing and a circle and has half of the constellation of Capricorn (a reference to [[Caprica (RDM)|Caprica]] obviously) and a small symbol of the planet as well. The tattoo on Anders' arm is the other half of the symbol and when they embrace, the tattoos form the whole symbol. According to Sackhoff, Kara and Anders had the tattoos done around the time of their wedding, a fact later confirmed in dialogue during Season 4.5.
*The license plate on Thrace's truck on Caprica is "FB 42 E3" ([[Valley of Darkness]]).

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{{succession box|before=[[Karl Agathon|Karl "Helo" Agathon]]|title=[[Commander Air Group|Commander, Air Group]], ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''|after=''None'' Ship destroyed}}
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Talk:Messengers/Archive 1

2011-01-24T07:09:52Z

Shimel: /* Virtual Leoben */ will add Leoben and Starbuck if no objections

Talk:Messengers/Archive 1

2011-01-23T19:52:37Z

Shimel: /* Starbuck */ new section

:''For discussions prior to March 14, 2007, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Virtual_beings&oldid=110913 see this revision.]''

== Major revision ==

This article was strewn with theories and [[BW:FANW|fanwankery]] that cluttered the article. With the revelations of season 3, what is known about the nature of the virtual Six and Baltar reduces the probability of earlier speculation. Recent contributions have been more of possibility that is hardly supported by aired content, and reading the article as a whole was nearly impossible. As well, the article repeated informaation already present in the episode guides or a more relevant article. I have rewritten the article to keep sole focus on the origins, motivations and behavior of the virtual beings, removing all previous irrelevant, incorrect or otherwise inappropriate content on their nature or history.

As this article deals with the virtual beings related to Cylon activity, I eliminated the text on other character visions; they are more suited for a separate article to keep topics from blending.

With major revisions like this, there is always a possibility that something significant was lost. Contributors should feel free to add in significant notes of the virtual beings, but please do not repeat every instance of the being's presence or interject speculation that is not supported with episode content. The article, in my opinion and recommendation, should focus more on what they do to the actual characters and less on their nature until the show reveals more of their origin. Again, please be careful about excessive speculation; "theories" per se are not acceptable on Battlestar Wiki. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:34, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

== Virtual Baltar Episodes ==

In the major edit, I botched the episode citation for virtual Baltar's visit to C-Six in her jail cell. One or both of the episode citations I noted are wrong. Corrections to this information are appreciated. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:54, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
:The visit is in "The Woman King". That's where the two kiss and they wonder what's going on.--[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:00, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

About this: "Neither character has revealed the presence of these images to each other or any other character as of the episode, "[[The Woman King]]" (where the virtual Baltar makes an appearance)." 
Does this mean that it is the first instance where another character (here Roslin) really wonders what one of them is doing? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

:It should say "Neither character has revealed the existence (...)." Other characters have witnessed the strange behavior, but to my memory, only Roslin has verbally wondered. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

== Baltar and his Virtual Baltar ==

Virtual Baltar has appeared to Baltar. -- [[User:LicensedLunacy|LicensedLunacy]] 16:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that Baltar seeing himself is just a unique way to convey he is thinking/ talking to himself, considering his options. [[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]]

: That might be a good way to look at it... Actually, it might be another part of his psyche he's talking to. It can be said that Virtual Six is the part of his subconscious mind, trying to deal with the fact that he's responsible for so many people's deaths in another light. But that's a topic for discussion at a [http://www.battlestarforum.com forum]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 00:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

==Virtual Leoben==
Shouldn't we add virtual Leoben? He's sort of important I'd say, and is not a part of Kara...--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:34, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

:That's a good question. I would say "yes" but that also introduces other dream-related visions such as the ones I removed. I recommend "no" as the article should limit itself to visions that are experienced by characters in real-time and not while unconscious (sleeping or otherwise). That's my opinion and is open for more scrutiny. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
:No. There is a good chance that Head-Six and Head-Baltar are somehow Cylon-related. That chance is not so great with Maelstrom Leoben, since IMHO it's more likely just a representation of her own subconscious and not in any way whatsoever related to the real Leoben (it even says so in the episode). --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:04, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
::Maybe we should add at least a note about Maelstrom Leoben and A Day in Life Carolanne, though? 12:37, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
:::I concur with Serenity. The virtuals are definitely a unexpected (and unrevealed) side-effect of Cylon technology, that much is certain. The virtual Leoben ''isn't'' a Cylon, and doesn't appear in real time. He needs a separate article (and deserves it). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:00, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
::::I've created a [[virtual Leoben]] article and updated the relevant pages where he it cited. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:00, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
::::I have to disagree that the virtual Six and Baltar are definitely, or even probably, a result of Cylon technology. Their nature is as unknown as the virtual Leoben's. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:37, 1 November 2007 (CDT)

==Cylon Tech==
Isn't this line: "Since the effect appears to occur only between Caprica-Six and Gaius Baltar, it is possible that their visions are an unknown side-effect of Cylon technology," complete specualtion? I think it should be removed, but before doing so, I thought I'd check to make sure there wasn't any concensus I wasn't aware of. If it happened with the other six members of the [[Significant Seven]] (or even a majority of them) I wouldn't have as much of a problem, but as it's only happened with Six and Baltar I think it's out of place. If anything, a more appropriate stateent would be something like it's an unkown side-effect of cylon-human intimacy.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 21:09, 3 June 2007 (CDT)
:The way you phrase is still speculation, but is more precise to what we know, and would be more appropriate. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]]
::I completely agree, and I'd rather remove it outright, but was trying to be diplomatic. I'm going to remove it completely.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 10:25, 4 June 2007 (CDT)

== Virtual Ellen? ==

How is she different from Bill's hallucination of [[Carolanne Adama]] in "[[A Day in the Life]]"? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 18:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah, it could just be a normal hallucination. This might be more, but until it is confirmed, pushing her appearance so clearly into the direction of the virtual beings is POV. I reworded the section to make it more neutral and less certain. The term "Virtual Ellen" shouldn't be used so freely and always in quotation marks. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:It depends. I have a feeling we'll see more of her in future episodes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
::Tigh could even be [[projection|projecting]] her onto Caprica Six (seems a bit the wrong way round to me :D) but that doesn't make her a being like V.Six or V.Baltar who are all mystical or whatnot. Ellen's words and actions all seem to be what Caprica said and did anyway, wheras V.Six and V.Baltar are separate entities. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:::That's definitely a possibility. Maybe doing a "hallucinations" article would suffice... which would be a bit ironic, given that this article itself came from an article on Cylon based hallucinations, if I recall correctly. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
::::You do. We used to describe hallucinations here, only to discover they were all virtual beings, and renamed the article accordingly. With Adama and Tigh hallucinating about their wives, that may not have been that good a choice (in hindsight). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 23:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::I suggest we move the "Virtual Ellen" section into the [[Ellen Tigh]] article until we have a reason to believe she is anything other than a hallucination/projection. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::I think it would be more appropriate here or in the Saul Tigh article. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

==Virtual?==

I think the fact that we've seen direct physical intervention by "Virtual" Six onscreen in [[Escape Velocity]] throws the whole "virtual" concept right out the window. Could explain the sudden disappearance of [[Shelly Godfrey]] and [[Gina]] after their respective acts, as well. One could also infer some serious intervention on the part of "Virtual" Leoben during Starbuck's "death" but that's even further speculation. Anyway, just a thought I felt was worth mentioning. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 20:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:She only interacted with Baltar. We've seen her push him into a wall or mirror before, so we know that she can force him to move in a certain way. I don't see how that makes her any less "virtual," since she exists in his mind. And Gina didn't suddenly dissapear, she blew herself up. [[User:INH|INH]] 02:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The footage clearly shows intervention ... he's held up and forced towards the marines, moving quite unnaturally. Yes, Gina blew herself up, but I'm referring to how she removed herself from ''Pegasus'' after killing Cain. I'd love some episode reference for "We've seen her push him into a wall or mirror before" so I can review it. Thanks. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 02:28, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
: Right, she's still virtual, and we don't really see whether or not Baltar's feet make it off the ground. I'm sure they did some wire work in the scene, but we don't really know what we're supposed to believe... This is where a podcast would definitely help. The only one that disappears unexpectedly is Shelly, and she could have easily flushed herself out an airlock, given how they aren't guarded. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 02:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
: While it's the most extreme seemingly physical interaction so far, this isn't really too different from what happens in ''[[w:Fight Club|Fight Club]]'' for example, and not completely impossible to do alone. While it seems that he is held in the air, it's not actually shown. Could be either. Sure, it might be more, but it's not ''that'' certain. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::IMO anything which happens while Virtual Six is visible should be considered unreliable. In other words, I think that only movements which Baltar could not plasibly make under his own power occuring while Virtual Six is not in the shot should be considered conclusive evidence of physical interaction. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 08:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::I don't at all like the implication of an invisible "Six" physically lifting Baltar, but we have to acknowledge that setting up the shot the way they did was not at all trivial, and must have been done for a reason. Whether this was intended to be dramatic (and thus, demands a literal interpretation) or comic (and thus, just a sight gag) is unclear - it's a mirthless episode, but Olmos's previous episodes have demonstrated a taste for comedy. If it we have to interpret it literally, well, that's a challenge. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
:::To counter the point, had Baltar been lifted "off the ground", we'd see a variety of shocked reactions from those who witnessed this otherworldly event. So not only do we have to gauge what we see Baltar doing, but we also have to look at the entire picture. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::I dont understand how this is in question. IIRC from the podcast for the episode..James Callis did all the movements under his own power..if the actor could do them, why is it in question the the character couldn't do them? Also from the podcast, Ron complained that the intent was not to look like he was lifted but under his own power. --[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

== Virtual > Head ==

Pretty much every official source I see (including RDM's podcast) uses the phrases "Head-Six", and "Head-Baltar" rather than "Virtual". Shouldn't we follow suit? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 20:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
:Lacks gravitas, but does seem more standard. What does RDM call them in the podcasts? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::He calls them Head-Six and Head-Baltar. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 05:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
:We can use both. And note the terminology here. But there isn't really much point in changing it throughout the wiki. I don't think it's too confusing to use both for some variety. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::We should use both. "Head" is more colloquial but also has a loose ungrammatical and perjorative nature I find weird. I see "virtual" around the fansphere just as well. For this article and throughout the wiki, "virtual" should be used but references to "head" (yes, please) should be redirects to here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Such redirects are already in place :) -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::I don't agree that we should use "Head-Six" and "Head-Baltar". Frankly, this already presupposes that these are figments of a person's imagination; virtual is more ambiguous, and has a wider-range of meanings than "head" (which is another way of saying "glorified imaginary friend". So, Ron uses it... then again, he and Eick have diluted themselves into believing that "Hero" fits snugly into continuity when we all know that isn't the case. So... time to put on those critical thinking caps. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 21:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

== Virtual Cat ==

I find it curious that [[Romo Lampkin]]'s virtual cat from [[Sine Qua Non]] isn't listed. Is this an oversight or is it deliberate? There can be no question that the cat was indeed virtual. That cat had been dead for a long enough time for Lee to question its time of death. The cat is never seen by Lee. Romo is the only one to interact with the cat, and then, only by voice.
--[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:28, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
::Because there's a difference between a virtual being and a mere hallucination. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 04:37, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
:::I havent seen this distinction in the show. No virtual being has given any character any information that they didnt already know, or could have reasonably deduced by themselves. --[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
::The Virtual Six lifted Baltar off the ground in a manner that was physically impossible for him to do on his own. There are other examples too. The virtual beings aren't mere hallucinations. The presence of extra-corporeal entities and/or spiritual powers in this show is all but spelled out in giant letters for the audience. [[User:Blue Rook|Blue Rook]] 08:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Not so. Baltar had no way of knowing that Hera would arrive or of her connection to the Opera House. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
::::How could have a cylon known about the birth of hara? And if james callis could do the moves without outside assistence, so could baltar. And havent you noticed that when Ron Moore hits you over the head with a concept, its often wrong? And this still doesn't rule out a virtual cat. --[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 07:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::What Cylon? Virtual Six isn't a Cylon. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:55, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
:: I agree that it is a virtual being (or the virtual being as it has not been disproved that they are different, and when questioned on it the subject it was deflected, possibly the Cylon God). My reasoning for this is that every encounter with one has moved the story on often with a purpose (e.g. Baltar's Six being pissed at him for comforting Gina then telling him “God will not forgive this sin”, Caprica's Baltar for telling her to find the humans and then Baltar's Six telling him it is the reckoning when the ships land on New Caprica). In this case it forced Romo to be pissed at the loss of his cat and force Lee to take up the mantle of President and help the truce to occur. [[User:Chris etd|Chris etd]] 03:27, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

== These Angels Making Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. '' {{unsigned|Walabio}}

:It is what it is, Walabio. :) For further discussion about the episode that's not relevant to the quality and content of the article's editorial content, perhaps you should redirect (and reproduce) your thoughts on the [http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=3050 talk thread] for the episode on the Battlestar Forum. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Rename to "Messengers"==
Hey guys, I was thinking, given the mention that RDM referred to them as "the messengers" in the podcast for No Exit and the fact that they are confirmed to be supernatural, without necessarily being angels or demons, that perhaps we should change the article name to more accurately reflect what they are.

"Virtual beings" has worked until now, because we didn't know if they were truly something supernatural, but since we now know they aren't, and we have a fairly decent term (from a good enough source) I think it might be fair to say that it's time to change to the more accurate term. Thoughts? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 02:10, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:: Actually, no they have not been "confirmed to be supernatural." All we know is that they are messengers of an entity that does not like to be called "God." -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 06:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:: Good idea. The term "messengers" is certainly more semi-official than "virtual beings", a term which doesn't actually make that much sense. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:29, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
::: Strictly, the in-show term for them is Angels. This is what H6 calls herself, this is what Baltar calls them. In the writers room they were "head characters" and then called messengers in a podcast. Nothing is a clear winner, though as Caprica adds VR to the galactiverse, the term virtual may become less than ideal.--[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 00:16, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

It's been a while, but I think the issue still stands: I think we should rename this page to "Messengers" or some variation of that. Yes, within the show they're always referenced as Angels, outside of it, however, "Messengers" is the most accurate post-revelation term applied to them, since the creators explicitly state that they don't consider them "angels" or "demons".

As for the "head character" terminology, it seems this was mainly used because of the mystery surrounding them (even to the writers back then, I guess), but it no longer really applies. In any case "Virtual beings" is certainly not the best of the available terms, as it is not only completely fan-made, but it also carries certain connotations which make it seem like a less than partial fanmade term at that.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 20:20, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

:Honestly, given the unfolding of ''Caprica'', usage of the word "virtual" gives rise to connotations of the technological context of an avatar rather than a spiritual/incorporeal/supernatural one and I think steering away from such confusion should be the primary goal in a name-change. Personally, I've always preferred the application of the word "spectre" (you've got to admit that "Spectre Six" has a nice ring to it), but I nevertheless feel as though "Messengers" weighs the heaviest seeing as how every one of these categorised beings have indeed been messengers of a various sort.--[[User:Mars|Mars]] 17:20, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

:: In reviewing the above arguments and what's been introduced thus far in ''Caprica'', I do have to agree that the term "virtual" should be dropped. Further, I concur with Mars that the term "Messengers" is for the best, since that's what they really are anyway. As for Angels, well... that's a bit up in the air. It's the first in-show term for these beings, I'll grant you that, but they don't exactly fit the whole idea—or definition, either—that angels are "benevolent" creatures. Still, let's not confuse anything here and go ahead and move this to "Messengers" with proper redirects from terms like "angels" and "head characters," and all that. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 17:40, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

::: I concur. "Angel" derives from Latin and Greek words meaning "messenger" anyway. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:47, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

== Virtual Baltar doesn't work for God ==

This paragraph is not strictly true and has been interpreted:

The two discuss the cycle of life and Virtual Baltar chides Virtual Six for calling the being they work for God, as it apparently doesn't like being called that. Virtual Baltar has the series last line, which is a response to Virtual Six's stern look: "silly me.... silly, silly me." The two then walk off together into present day New York City. 

I suggest something more general and more literal because the last scene could also be interpreted as such:

The two discuss the cycle of life and Virtual Six declares she is optimistic about the future. Upon being asked why by Virtual Baltar, she declares that its a mathematical probability and THAT is part of God's plan. To which he jokingly appears affronted, saying menacingly; "You know he doesn't like that name.", insinuating that mathematical probability is actually part of his bosses, the Devil's, plan. When she retorts by way of a look of disdain, he feigns an apology, saying; "silly me .... silly, silly me."

even though it may be fanwankery, I still believe the former paragraph is an 'interpretation' of the ending, not statement of fact. It could be re-written more generally and literally to avoid interpretation that they BOTH work for God.--
[[User:Barstuck|Barstuck]] 19:08, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
*I don't think we should change it, I think that's the most simple and basic interpretation that the scene could have. Not to mention, of course, that RDM confirmed in an interview that the scene was meant to make the audience question the nature of "the Cylon God", so they were both definitely talking about the same entity, regardless of what this is. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:57, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
** I suppose we have to expect there to be information from outside the show on the show's own wiki. But I like how wikipedia stated it. More loose - more open to the viewer's interpretation, and a satisfying factual explanation. I'll leave it at that. Thanks.--[[User:Barstuck|Barstuck]] 00:01, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't know which wikipedia article you may be referring to, but after looking over the article I realized that there are quite a few things that feel a bit....decisive, given the nature of their revelation. The main thing is that Moore specifically mentions wanting them being ambiguous beings working for an ambiguous power, yet the article doesn't necessarily reflect that, especially by referring to them as "angels" (which is, I'll admit, the only thing HS ever called herself, and what other characters called them near the end).
: Do note that that conversation was truncated from the original script, which was shown in the readthrough video in Eick's podcast. The "silly me" line refers to Head Baltar's question as to what the stakes are in a bet over whether humanity destroys itself again.--[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 00:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Still, this connects more with my point above of changing the article title (and the references to "angels" and "virtual beings") into "Messengers", which, as mentioned before, is the "most official" and honestly most accurate term that would also serve to maintain the ambiguity. The other factor affecting this would be "God", but honestly there's little we can do with that and I think that the perviously suggested change might be enough to make it, without removing the references to them being "angels" by other characters (though not forgetting their ambiguity in the text). --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 01:54, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

== Starbuck ==

Shouldn't Starbuck be included somewhere here? Her disappearance seemed to indicate that once she died and returned, she too was a messenger (her page even links to the Messengers page). [[User:Shimel|Shimel]] 19:52, 23 January 2011 (UTC)