Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Messengers/Archive 1

2010-03-14T20:20:34Z

Sauron18: /* Rename to "Messengers" */

:''For discussions prior to March 14, 2007, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Virtual_beings&oldid=110913 see this revision.]''

== Major revision ==

This article was strewn with theories and [[BW:FANW|fanwankery]] that cluttered the article. With the revelations of season 3, what is known about the nature of the virtual Six and Baltar reduces the probability of earlier speculation. Recent contributions have been more of possibility that is hardly supported by aired content, and reading the article as a whole was nearly impossible. As well, the article repeated informaation already present in the episode guides or a more relevant article. I have rewritten the article to keep sole focus on the origins, motivations and behavior of the virtual beings, removing all previous irrelevant, incorrect or otherwise inappropriate content on their nature or history.

As this article deals with the virtual beings related to Cylon activity, I eliminated the text on other character visions; they are more suited for a separate article to keep topics from blending.

With major revisions like this, there is always a possibility that something significant was lost. Contributors should feel free to add in significant notes of the virtual beings, but please do not repeat every instance of the being's presence or interject speculation that is not supported with episode content. The article, in my opinion and recommendation, should focus more on what they do to the actual characters and less on their nature until the show reveals more of their origin. Again, please be careful about excessive speculation; "theories" per se are not acceptable on Battlestar Wiki. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:34, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

== Virtual Baltar Episodes ==

In the major edit, I botched the episode citation for virtual Baltar's visit to C-Six in her jail cell. One or both of the episode citations I noted are wrong. Corrections to this information are appreciated. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:54, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
:The visit is in "The Woman King". That's where the two kiss and they wonder what's going on.--[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:00, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

About this: "Neither character has revealed the presence of these images to each other or any other character as of the episode, "[[The Woman King]]" (where the virtual Baltar makes an appearance)." 
Does this mean that it is the first instance where another character (here Roslin) really wonders what one of them is doing? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

:It should say "Neither character has revealed the existence (...)." Other characters have witnessed the strange behavior, but to my memory, only Roslin has verbally wondered. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

== Baltar and his Virtual Baltar ==

Virtual Baltar has appeared to Baltar. -- [[User:LicensedLunacy|LicensedLunacy]] 16:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that Baltar seeing himself is just a unique way to convey he is thinking/ talking to himself, considering his options. [[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]]

: That might be a good way to look at it... Actually, it might be another part of his psyche he's talking to. It can be said that Virtual Six is the part of his subconscious mind, trying to deal with the fact that he's responsible for so many people's deaths in another light. But that's a topic for discussion at a [http://www.battlestarforum.com forum]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 00:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

==Virtual Leoben==
Shouldn't we add virtual Leoben? He's sort of important I'd say, and is not a part of Kara...--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:34, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

:That's a good question. I would say "yes" but that also introduces other dream-related visions such as the ones I removed. I recommend "no" as the article should limit itself to visions that are experienced by characters in real-time and not while unconscious (sleeping or otherwise). That's my opinion and is open for more scrutiny. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
:No. There is a good chance that Head-Six and Head-Baltar are somehow Cylon-related. That chance is not so great with Maelstrom Leoben, since IMHO it's more likely just a representation of her own subconscious and not in any way whatsoever related to the real Leoben (it even says so in the episode). --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:04, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
::Maybe we should add at least a note about Maelstrom Leoben and A Day in Life Carolanne, though? 12:37, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
:::I concur with Serenity. The virtuals are definitely a unexpected (and unrevealed) side-effect of Cylon technology, that much is certain. The virtual Leoben ''isn't'' a Cylon, and doesn't appear in real time. He needs a separate article (and deserves it). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:00, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
::::I've created a [[virtual Leoben]] article and updated the relevant pages where he it cited. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:00, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
::::I have to disagree that the virtual Six and Baltar are definitely, or even probably, a result of Cylon technology. Their nature is as unknown as the virtual Leoben's. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:37, 1 November 2007 (CDT)

==Cylon Tech==
Isn't this line: "Since the effect appears to occur only between Caprica-Six and Gaius Baltar, it is possible that their visions are an unknown side-effect of Cylon technology," complete specualtion? I think it should be removed, but before doing so, I thought I'd check to make sure there wasn't any concensus I wasn't aware of. If it happened with the other six members of the [[Significant Seven]] (or even a majority of them) I wouldn't have as much of a problem, but as it's only happened with Six and Baltar I think it's out of place. If anything, a more appropriate stateent would be something like it's an unkown side-effect of cylon-human intimacy.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 21:09, 3 June 2007 (CDT)
:The way you phrase is still speculation, but is more precise to what we know, and would be more appropriate. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]]
::I completely agree, and I'd rather remove it outright, but was trying to be diplomatic. I'm going to remove it completely.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 10:25, 4 June 2007 (CDT)

== Virtual Ellen? ==

How is she different from Bill's hallucination of [[Carolanne Adama]] in "[[A Day in the Life]]"? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 18:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah, it could just be a normal hallucination. This might be more, but until it is confirmed, pushing her appearance so clearly into the direction of the virtual beings is POV. I reworded the section to make it more neutral and less certain. The term "Virtual Ellen" shouldn't be used so freely and always in quotation marks. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:It depends. I have a feeling we'll see more of her in future episodes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
::Tigh could even be [[projection|projecting]] her onto Caprica Six (seems a bit the wrong way round to me :D) but that doesn't make her a being like V.Six or V.Baltar who are all mystical or whatnot. Ellen's words and actions all seem to be what Caprica said and did anyway, wheras V.Six and V.Baltar are separate entities. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:::That's definitely a possibility. Maybe doing a "hallucinations" article would suffice... which would be a bit ironic, given that this article itself came from an article on Cylon based hallucinations, if I recall correctly. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
::::You do. We used to describe hallucinations here, only to discover they were all virtual beings, and renamed the article accordingly. With Adama and Tigh hallucinating about their wives, that may not have been that good a choice (in hindsight). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 23:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::I suggest we move the "Virtual Ellen" section into the [[Ellen Tigh]] article until we have a reason to believe she is anything other than a hallucination/projection. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::I think it would be more appropriate here or in the Saul Tigh article. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

==Virtual?==

I think the fact that we've seen direct physical intervention by "Virtual" Six onscreen in [[Escape Velocity]] throws the whole "virtual" concept right out the window. Could explain the sudden disappearance of [[Shelly Godfrey]] and [[Gina]] after their respective acts, as well. One could also infer some serious intervention on the part of "Virtual" Leoben during Starbuck's "death" but that's even further speculation. Anyway, just a thought I felt was worth mentioning. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 20:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:She only interacted with Baltar. We've seen her push him into a wall or mirror before, so we know that she can force him to move in a certain way. I don't see how that makes her any less "virtual," since she exists in his mind. And Gina didn't suddenly dissapear, she blew herself up. [[User:INH|INH]] 02:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The footage clearly shows intervention ... he's held up and forced towards the marines, moving quite unnaturally. Yes, Gina blew herself up, but I'm referring to how she removed herself from ''Pegasus'' after killing Cain. I'd love some episode reference for "We've seen her push him into a wall or mirror before" so I can review it. Thanks. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 02:28, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
: Right, she's still virtual, and we don't really see whether or not Baltar's feet make it off the ground. I'm sure they did some wire work in the scene, but we don't really know what we're supposed to believe... This is where a podcast would definitely help. The only one that disappears unexpectedly is Shelly, and she could have easily flushed herself out an airlock, given how they aren't guarded. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 02:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
: While it's the most extreme seemingly physical interaction so far, this isn't really too different from what happens in ''[[w:Fight Club|Fight Club]]'' for example, and not completely impossible to do alone. While it seems that he is held in the air, it's not actually shown. Could be either. Sure, it might be more, but it's not ''that'' certain. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::IMO anything which happens while Virtual Six is visible should be considered unreliable. In other words, I think that only movements which Baltar could not plasibly make under his own power occuring while Virtual Six is not in the shot should be considered conclusive evidence of physical interaction. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 08:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::I don't at all like the implication of an invisible "Six" physically lifting Baltar, but we have to acknowledge that setting up the shot the way they did was not at all trivial, and must have been done for a reason. Whether this was intended to be dramatic (and thus, demands a literal interpretation) or comic (and thus, just a sight gag) is unclear - it's a mirthless episode, but Olmos's previous episodes have demonstrated a taste for comedy. If it we have to interpret it literally, well, that's a challenge. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
:::To counter the point, had Baltar been lifted "off the ground", we'd see a variety of shocked reactions from those who witnessed this otherworldly event. So not only do we have to gauge what we see Baltar doing, but we also have to look at the entire picture. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::I dont understand how this is in question. IIRC from the podcast for the episode..James Callis did all the movements under his own power..if the actor could do them, why is it in question the the character couldn't do them? Also from the podcast, Ron complained that the intent was not to look like he was lifted but under his own power. --[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

== Virtual > Head ==

Pretty much every official source I see (including RDM's podcast) uses the phrases "Head-Six", and "Head-Baltar" rather than "Virtual". Shouldn't we follow suit? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 20:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
:Lacks gravitas, but does seem more standard. What does RDM call them in the podcasts? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::He calls them Head-Six and Head-Baltar. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 05:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
:We can use both. And note the terminology here. But there isn't really much point in changing it throughout the wiki. I don't think it's too confusing to use both for some variety. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::We should use both. "Head" is more colloquial but also has a loose ungrammatical and perjorative nature I find weird. I see "virtual" around the fansphere just as well. For this article and throughout the wiki, "virtual" should be used but references to "head" (yes, please) should be redirects to here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Such redirects are already in place :) -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::I don't agree that we should use "Head-Six" and "Head-Baltar". Frankly, this already presupposes that these are figments of a person's imagination; virtual is more ambiguous, and has a wider-range of meanings than "head" (which is another way of saying "glorified imaginary friend". So, Ron uses it... then again, he and Eick have diluted themselves into believing that "Hero" fits snugly into continuity when we all know that isn't the case. So... time to put on those critical thinking caps. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 21:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

== Virtual Cat ==

I find it curious that [[Romo Lampkin]]'s virtual cat from [[Sine Qua Non]] isn't listed. Is this an oversight or is it deliberate? There can be no question that the cat was indeed virtual. That cat had been dead for a long enough time for Lee to question its time of death. The cat is never seen by Lee. Romo is the only one to interact with the cat, and then, only by voice.
--[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:28, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
::Because there's a difference between a virtual being and a mere hallucination. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 04:37, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
:::I havent seen this distinction in the show. No virtual being has given any character any information that they didnt already know, or could have reasonably deduced by themselves. --[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
::The Virtual Six lifted Baltar off the ground in a manner that was physically impossible for him to do on his own. There are other examples too. The virtual beings aren't mere hallucinations. The presence of extra-corporeal entities and/or spiritual powers in this show is all but spelled out in giant letters for the audience. [[User:Blue Rook|Blue Rook]] 08:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Not so. Baltar had no way of knowing that Hera would arrive or of her connection to the Opera House. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
::::How could have a cylon known about the birth of hara? And if james callis could do the moves without outside assistence, so could baltar. And havent you noticed that when Ron Moore hits you over the head with a concept, its often wrong? And this still doesn't rule out a virtual cat. --[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 07:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::What Cylon? Virtual Six isn't a Cylon. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:55, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
:: I agree that it is a virtual being (or the virtual being as it has not been disproved that they are different, and when questioned on it the subject it was deflected, possibly the Cylon God). My reasoning for this is that every encounter with one has moved the story on often with a purpose (e.g. Baltar's Six being pissed at him for comforting Gina then telling him “God will not forgive this sin”, Caprica's Baltar for telling her to find the humans and then Baltar's Six telling him it is the reckoning when the ships land on New Caprica). In this case it forced Romo to be pissed at the loss of his cat and force Lee to take up the mantle of President and help the truce to occur. [[User:Chris etd|Chris etd]] 03:27, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

== These Angels Making Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. '' {{unsigned|Walabio}}

:It is what it is, Walabio. :) For further discussion about the episode that's not relevant to the quality and content of the article's editorial content, perhaps you should redirect (and reproduce) your thoughts on the [http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=3050 talk thread] for the episode on the Battlestar Forum. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Rename to "Messengers"==
Hey guys, I was thinking, given the mention that RDM referred to them as "the messengers" in the podcast for No Exit and the fact that they are confirmed to be supernatural, without necessarily being angels or demons, that perhaps we should change the article name to more accurately reflect what they are.

"Virtual beings" has worked until now, because we didn't know if they were truly something supernatural, but since we now know they aren't, and we have a fairly decent term (from a good enough source) I think it might be fair to say that it's time to change to the more accurate term. Thoughts? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 02:10, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:: Actually, no they have not been "confirmed to be supernatural." All we know is that they are messengers of an entity that does not like to be called "God." -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 06:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:: Good idea. The term "messengers" is certainly more semi-official than "virtual beings", a term which doesn't actually make that much sense. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:29, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
::: Strictly, the in-show term for them is Angels. This is what H6 calls herself, this is what Baltar calls them. In the writers room they were "head characters" and then called messengers in a podcast. Nothing is a clear winner, though as Caprica adds VR to the galactiverse, the term virtual may become less than ideal.--[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 00:16, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

It's been a while, but I think the issue still stands: I think we should rename this page to "Messengers" or some variation of that. Yes, within the show they're always referenced as Angels, outside of it, however, "Messengers" is the most accurate post-revelation term applied to them, since the creators explicitly state that they don't consider them "angels" or "demons".

As for the "head character" terminology, it seems this was mainly used because of the mystery surrounding them (even to the writers back then, I guess), but it no longer really applies. In any case "Virtual beings" is certainly not the best of the available terms, as it is not only completely fan-made, but it also carries certain connotations which make it seem like a less than partial fanmade term at that.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 20:20, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

== Virtual Baltar doesn't work for God ==

This paragraph is not strictly true and has been interpreted:

The two discuss the cycle of life and Virtual Baltar chides Virtual Six for calling the being they work for God, as it apparently doesn't like being called that. Virtual Baltar has the series last line, which is a response to Virtual Six's stern look: "silly me.... silly, silly me." The two then walk off together into present day New York City. 

I suggest something more general and more literal because the last scene could also be interpreted as such:

The two discuss the cycle of life and Virtual Six declares she is optimistic about the future. Upon being asked why by Virtual Baltar, she declares that its a mathematical probability and THAT is part of God's plan. To which he jokingly appears affronted, saying menacingly; "You know he doesn't like that name.", insinuating that mathematical probability is actually part of his bosses, the Devil's, plan. When she retorts by way of a look of disdain, he feigns an apology, saying; "silly me .... silly, silly me."

even though it may be fanwankery, I still believe the former paragraph is an 'interpretation' of the ending, not statement of fact. It could be re-written more generally and literally to avoid interpretation that they BOTH work for God.--
[[User:Barstuck|Barstuck]] 19:08, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
*I don't think we should change it, I think that's the most simple and basic interpretation that the scene could have. Not to mention, of course, that RDM confirmed in an interview that the scene was meant to make the audience question the nature of "the Cylon God", so they were both definitely talking about the same entity, regardless of what this is. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:57, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
** I suppose we have to expect there to be information from outside the show on the show's own wiki. But I like how wikipedia stated it. More loose - more open to the viewer's interpretation, and a satisfying factual explanation. I'll leave it at that. Thanks.--[[User:Barstuck|Barstuck]] 00:01, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't know which wikipedia article you may be referring to, but after looking over the article I realized that there are quite a few things that feel a bit....decisive, given the nature of their revelation. The main thing is that Moore specifically mentions wanting them being ambiguous beings working for an ambiguous power, yet the article doesn't necessarily reflect that, especially by referring to them as "angels" (which is, I'll admit, the only thing HS ever called herself, and what other characters called them near the end).
: Do note that that conversation was truncated from the original script, which was shown in the readthrough video in Eick's podcast. The "silly me" line refers to Head Baltar's question as to what the stakes are in a bet over whether humanity destroys itself again.--[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 00:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Still, this connects more with my point above of changing the article title (and the references to "angels" and "virtual beings") into "Messengers", which, as mentioned before, is the "most official" and honestly most accurate term that would also serve to maintain the ambiguity. The other factor affecting this would be "God", but honestly there's little we can do with that and I think that the perviously suggested change might be enough to make it, without removing the references to them being "angels" by other characters (though not forgetting their ambiguity in the text). --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 01:54, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Number One

2009-09-16T08:23:48Z

Sauron18: Main Image Change - More portrait-like and characteristic

{{Character Data
|photo=John Cavil.jpg
|age=
|colony=
|birthname=
|callsign=
|seen= Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I
|death=Suicide ([[Daybreak, Part II]])
|parents=Claimed as a child by [[Ellen Tigh]]
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status=
|role= Cylon infiltrator, lay clergy
|rank=
|actor= [[Dean Stockwell]]
|cylon= y
|name= John Cavil
}}
"'''Number One'''" is the first of eight [[humanoid Cylon]] models created by the [[Final Five]] for the [[Cylon Centurion| Centurions]] following the [[Cylon War|first Cylon war]]. The Final Five referred to him as John, and he was created in the image of [[Ellen Tigh]]'s biological father, John.

One of the Number Ones, prior to being discovered among the Fleet, posed as '''[[Religion in the Twelve Colonies#The Clergy|Brother Cavil]]''', a member of the Colonial clergy. However, contrary to his assumed role, he did not share the other Cylons' [[Cylon Religion|religious beliefs]] and frequently mocked them.

== "John" and the Final Five ==

After the [[Final Five]] contacted the Centurions, they agreed to create humanoid Cylons and share resurrection technology with them in exchange for an end to the [[Cylon War]]. The first humanoid Cylon created by the Final Five was "John", named after and created in the likeness of [[Ellen Tigh]]'s biological father. He was "treasured" by the Five, and even assisted them in the creation of the other seven models ([[No Exit]]).

John grew intensely jealous of [[Daniel]], the seventh model, because Daniel was emotionally favored by Ellen. John sabotaged the Sevens' genetic code and amniotic fluid, wiping out the entire line permanently.

He later trapped the Final Five in a room, suffocated them, and [[boxing|boxed]] them before they could be resurrected fully. Sometime after, he obscured their original memories, gave them false ones, and planted each of them "like a [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]]" among the humans in an effort to teach them a lesson about their foolish appreciation for humans. This plan backfires when The Five become even more sympathetic towards the Colonials, a fate that is eventually sealed with the destruction of the [[Resurrection Hub|resurrection hub]]. Without The Hub, The Five can no longer regain their original memories, thus remaining Colonials and enemies with John. Although The Five still unconsciously possess their lost memories, if any of The Five were to die then the knowledge needed to recreate resurrection technology would be lost forever.

John also corrupted the memories of his six surviving "sibling" models to remove from them the knowledge of the Final Five's identities and programmed them not to think about the matter, though they still knew that another five models were extant. John pretended to know no more about the Five than his fellows did, insisting that the imperative not to seek them out came from the "original programmers" ([[Six of One]]). John was extremely contemptuous of many of the human traits the Five gave him. He eliminated his need for sleep and dreaming by rewriting his own software, having previously suffered from night sweats and dreams in which he was being pursued through yellow mists by dog-faced boys.

==''Galactica'' Copy==

On ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'', the first viewed copy of Brother Cavil provides counsel for [[Galen Tyrol|Chief Tyrol]] after Tyrol's maddened attack against [[Cally Tyrol|Cally Henderson]]. Cavil identifies the source of Tyrol's anxiety as arising from the fear that he could be a [[Humanoid Cylon|Cylon sleeper agent]]. This Cavil seems to be personally very familiar with Tyrol and is apparently aware that Henderson harbors romantic feelings for him ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]). (Later analysis of Cavil's nature, from behavior in season 3 and 4 episodes, suggests that Cavil's comments were aimed to incite torment in Tyrol.)

A somewhat eccentric figure, Cavil is a surprisingly harsh critic of prayer for a Brother, but claims to have been preaching "longer than you [Tyrol] have been sucking down oxygen" ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]). <ref>This claim is patently false, as Tyrol is among Cavil's creators, but consistent with their covers as humans, as Cavil appears to have greater physical age than Tyrol. It may also be technically true if one only considers Tyrol's current body. </ref>

Despite his cynicism, Cavil prays with [[Laura Roslin]] for her re-election to the presidency to be successful. When Tyrol deduces the Caprica copy of him as a Cylon, Cavil is thrown in the brig along with his copy. He is later ejected through an airlock along with his copy (deleted scene). Due to the loss of the [[Resurrection Ship]], his death is presumed to be final ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

==Caprica Copy==
[[Image:Cyca2.jpg|left|thumb|Caprican Cavil]]
A second copy of this model emerges from the crew of resistance members rescued by the Caprica [[SAR]] team, telling them that the Cylons had left the Colonies. What he does not tell them — until Tyrol blows his cover upon his arrival at ''Galactica'' — is that he is a Cylon.

Due to this copy's discovery, the Fleet copy is arrested as well and thrown in ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'''s brig. Laura Roslin orders them ejected into space after Caprica-Cavil informs her and Admiral Adama that the Cylons had made two mistakes: the attack on the Colonies and the pursuit of the [[the Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]). Due to the loss of the Resurrection Ship, his death is presumed to be final. Though their execution is not shown, a later conversation indicates that they were executed ([[List of Deleted Scenes - Season 2 (RDM)#Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II|deleted scene]]).

Like his Fleet counterpart, the Caprica copy also expresses doubt in the active involvement of divine forces in the real world, although he focuses his contempt on the Cylon religion. He says that "There is no [[God (RDM)|God]]", something that the Ones have been telling the other Cylons for years, though he acknowledges that God's existence or nonexistence can't actually be proven. Based on his conversation with the Fleet copy, this viewpoint appears to be shared across the entire model.

This copy was part of the Caprica Resistance, which is why no one was shocked by his sudden appearance. He was there to toy with [[Sam Anders]] ([[No Exit]]).

==New Caprica Copies==
[[Image:Brother Cavil Shades.jpg|thumb|right|A Cavil on New Caprica]]

At least two Ones are present in the invasion fleet on New Caprica, as seen in "[[Occupation]]" and "[[Precipice]]." They have some authority over humans in detainment, as [[Ellen Tigh]] is able to use sexual favors to bribe another into releasing [[Saul Tigh]]. This may have been a self-serving ruse, because after a second sexual encounter, One says to her of Saul, "When's his next meeting with the insurgents?" and "We know he's their leader - why do you think we let him out of detention?" Ellen replies, "I thought it was because of the 'twist'", referring to a sex act, and One says, "Oh, yes, that too."

It turns out that these liasons were highly Oedipal in nature. Not only does Cavil resemble Ellen's father, he is her "son" ([[No Exit]]).

Two copies are also involved in the Cylon leaders' discussions such as whether to kill [[Gaius Baltar]].

Another copy also acts as a type of liaison between the [[New Caprica Police|NCP]] and their Cylon masters. He gives [[Jammer]] the list of Colonials to detain, and later accompanies the NCP to the site of a mass execution of Colonial Detainees ([[Occupation]]).

The NCP liaison version is critically wounded during an attack by the Resistance movement. One is left with a bullet wound to the stomach and is left to die after the detainees are liberated. He resorts to suicide by severing his [[w:carotid artery|carotid artery]] with a spent casing. He [[Resurrection (RDM)|downloads]] into a new body for the third time; an experience that, as he explains, is similar to having a white hot poker slammed through his skull ([[Exodus, Part I]]).

Shortly before her death, [[Ellen Tigh]] describes the One she seduced as the one "in charge" of the Detention Facility ([[Exodus, Part II]]).

==Basestar Command Copies==
[[Image:CavHap2.jpg|thumb||left|Cylon Diplomat]]
After the Cylon fleet arrives at the [[algae planet]], a Cylon negotiation team negotiates a meeting on ''Galactica'', which consists of [[Gaius Baltar]], [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]], a [[Number Three]], and a Number One. The One ad-libs during the discussion, personally suggesting that the Cylons will hand over Baltar to the Colonials as part of the negotiation ("to sweeten the pot").

Later, a One (likely the same one) argues that they should destroy ''Galactica'' now and be rid of them for good. He thinks it does not matter if the Cylons find [[Earth (RDM)|Earth]] in five days or five thousand years, saying that they can last forever, whereas the Colonials can't. He then determines Admiral Adama's claim that he will nuke the temple is a bluff even as ''Galactica'' preps its missile launchers ([[The Eye of Jupiter]]).

Another copy greets Number Three when she resurrects on a Resurrection Ship and informs her of the decision to box her model. She replies that someday he will know the truth of the [[Final Five]] like she does just before he removes the device storing her consciousness. Other Cavils are shown boxing other Number Threes all over the room in the Resurrection Ship ([[Rapture]]).

===Faction Leader Copy===
:''Owing to the identical nature of the Ones, the singular copy referred to below may actually be several different copies. Furthermore this copy could be the same as one discussed above, although there is no particular indication this is the case.''

In "[[Six of One]]" a Number One model, consistently referred to as "Cavil", despite the egalitarian and democratic principles of Cylon command, exudes an definite sense of assumed authority. As of such, he appears to be the ''de facto'' leader of one side of the [[Cylon Civil War|schism]] between the Cylons, composed of Ones, [[Four]]s, [[Five]]s, and [[Sharon Valerii]], opposed to the [[Number Two|Twos]], [[Number Six|Sixes]] and [[Number Eight|Eights]] loyal to [[Natalie]]. His is among the first blood shed in the Cylon Civil War, as Natalie has the [[Telencephalic inhibitor|self-aware]] [[Centurions]] (a concept Cavil is horrified by) attack. He initially appears to be forgiving, negotiating generous terms of truce with the rebels, although this is turns out to be a ploy for a devastating ambush, one which he justifies: "they started it".

Cavil is in a romantic relationship with Valerii, although the nature of it is odd, he condescendingly refers to her as his "pet Eight" ([[The Hub]]). He has been holding Ellen Tigh prisoner ever since she was killed by her husband and resurrected ([[No Exit]]).

This copy is killed by [[Number Three]] after he [[boxing|un-boxes]] her to try to convince her to get the rebels to stop. She breaks his neck when she learns of the attack on the Hub, believing that he won't have time to resurrect before it is destroyed ([[The Hub]]).

It is likely that she was wrong, as [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] brings a kidnapped Hera to a Number One which seems to be the same Cavil. He may have had to time to resurrect before the Hub was destroyed contrary to what D'Anna thought. It is equally possible that this is a different copy entirely, as they seem to share similar personalities. Regardless, this copy, alongside a [[Simon]], runs many tests on the child. ([[Islanded in a Stream of Stars]]).

He is later seen with Boomer and Hera in [[The Colony]], and remarks upon how Hera "holds the key to their survival somewhere in her genetic code". ([[Daybreak, Part I]])

During the attack on [[The Colony]], Cavil invades the ''Galactica'' CIC to take back Hera Agathon. He agrees to hand her over to the Colonials in exchange for the secret of Resurrection, and backs down. His trademark sarcasm surfaces when he is impatient with the Final Five, saying they're "keeping two civilizations waiting". When [[Tyrol]] attacks and kills [[Tory Foster]], he takes this as a sign of aggression, attacking the Colonials. When his attack fails, he swears and puts a gun in his mouth, committing suicide. Many other Number One copies died with him when The Colony falls into the black hole it was orbiting and is destroyed. ([[Daybreak, Part II]])

<div style="clear: both;"></div>

==Analysis==
In "[[Occupation]]" and "[[Precipice]]", the Ones are the most ''outwardly'' [[w:sadism|sadistic]] and cruel to humans, appearing to take pleasure (or at least a noticeable level of amusement) in their own acts of psychological and physical cruelty. They are even described by one of their creators, [[Ellen Tigh]], as being sadists. The Ones like toying with the idea of liquidating the human population on New Caprica as a solution to the Resistance, to "perhaps a more manageable number. Say, less than a thousand."

The Ones are described as being driven by base emotions, principally anger and jealousy ([[No Exit]]). They try to hide behind a facade of genial yet sarcastic superiority, but when situations move beyond their control they often lash out in rage, abandoning any pretence of civility. The Ones are a vindictive model; even their creators do not escape their anger and wrath. They specifically torture the [[Final Five]] psychologically and physically as a means of exacting "justice" for perceived slights against them. In conversation with the other Cylons, Ones are vocal and callous proponents of harsh measures against the [[New Caprica Resistance]] and are strong advocates of mass executions.

Though apparently [[w:Atheism|atheistic]], the first two known copies of this model pose as clergy. possibly as an intentional mockery of religion on their part. The Cavils on [[New Caprica]] often speak of "God" sarcastically when among other Cylons but seem to recognize the pragmatic aspects of religion, referring to the Cylon "plan" as "God's Plan." The Cavil who lead the main Cylon faction against the rebel faction is also implied to possess more personal knowledge than other Cylons as the nature of the Cylon god and possibly the Final Five. He plays a "gatekeeper" role, and refers to "God" as "the voice of reason."

With the Cylons apparently occupying [[New Caprica]] at the end of the [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]], it appears that the Ones on ''Galactica'' are either lying about the Cylon change of heart or the Cylon plans changed after the second Number One was captured on ''Galactica''.

"[[Exodus, Part I]]" reveals that a Number One unit, the leader of the execution squad intercepted by the Resistance and who died there (his third death), experienced increasing head pain with each resurrection.

Several comments Number One makes in the episode "[[The Ties That Bind]]" indicate that he has some deeper knowledge of the Centurions than the rest of the Cylons do. This is because the Ones are the eldest of the eight Colonial-era humanoid Cylons, the firsts ones to be created by the [[Final Five]]. They played a key role in helping the Five create both their seven brother and sister models and the advanced Centurions and Raiders.

==Notes==

*The word ''cavil'' is a noun and verb involving an irrelevant or trivial point made during an argument or discussion; synonyms include ''quibble'' and ''carp.'' ([http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cavil Dictionary Reference])
*Cavil's first name, John, was unknowingly and mistakingly revealed by a crew member in the ''David Eick Video Blog'' long before the airing of ''[[No Exit]]'', in March/April of 2008.(''[[David Eick Video Blog|Who Do You Love?]]'')
*Cavil's numerical designation isn't revealed until the episode "[[Six of One]]" in Season Four and his given name "John" is not revealed until "[[No Exit]]" (unless counting the mistake by the crew in the David Eick Video Blog), also of Season Four.
*Cavil is also revealed in "No Exit" to have been, among other things, the anonymous stranger who placed an unconscious [[Ellen Tigh]] aboard the ''[[Rising Star (RDM)|Rising Star]]'' during the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. His copy on Caprica was a member of Sam's resistance fighters, which is why his sudden appearance in "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II" was not remarked on with surprise.

== References ==

<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

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{{quality candidate}}

[[de:Cavil]]
[[fr:Cavil]]

Joseph Adama

2009-09-02T21:18:49Z

Sauron18: Changed Main Image to Promotional Picture

: ''For other people with the same or similar first name, see: [[Joe (disambiguation)]].''

{{Character Data
|photo=Joe Esai.jpg
|age=
|colony= Born on [[Tauron (RDM)|Tauron]], relocated to [[Caprica (RDM)|Caprica]]
|seen= Caprica pilot
|death= Within 20 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], based on [[Romo Lampkin]]'s assumed age and apprenticeship
|parents= [[William Adama (grandfather)|William Adama]] (father) † Mother also deceased
|siblings= [[Sam Adama]]
|children= [[Tamara Adama]] [[William Adama]]
|marital status= Widow of [[Shannon Adama]]
|familytree=Y
|role= Civil Liberties lawyer
|rank=
|actor= [[Esai Morales]]
|cylon=
|sortkey=Adama, Joseph
}}
__TOC__
'''Joseph Adama, Attorney At Law''' (a.k.a. '''Joseph Adams''') was the husband of [[Shannon Adama|Shannon]], father of [[Tamara Adama|Tamara]] and [[William Adama]], and a well-known, notorious civil liberties lawyer on [[Caprica (RDM)|Caprica]] ("[[Litmus]]", "[[The Son Also Rises]]") who worked as a mob lawyer for the Tauron-based criminal organization [[Ha'la'tha]] nearly 60 years before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Fall]].

== Biography==

Adama was originally a [[Tauron (RDM)|Tauron]] who emigrated to Caprica and assumed the more Caprican sounding surname "Adams" because of the traditional prejudice against Taurons (additionally, the proper Tauron pronounciation of his first name is Iusif or "yu-SEEF" IPA: ju'sif). He and his brother [[Sam Adama|Sam]] were orphaned during the [[Tauron Civil War]] and grew up in a Caprican orphanage. Their father was William, namesake of Joseph's son. Joseph became an influential defense attorney with ties to the [[Ha'la'tha]], an organized crime underworld, as a result of having his education paid for by them.

Fifty-eight years before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Fall]], his wife and daughter are killed in [[Ben Stark]]'s suicide bombing of the [[Lev]] in [[Caprica City]]. Sometime later in his life, Adama went back to his original family name, given his revelation to young William about their family name weeks after the terrorist attack.

After the Fall, his son William Adama (commander of ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'') remarked that he thought Adama was a better father than he ever was to his own children ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]). Adama's grandson, [[Lee Adama]], would repeatedly visit the elder Adama during his youth, sneaking a peek at Joseph's various law books ([[A Day in the Life]]). Joseph would repeatedly wave Lee over, telling him "Lee, be a good boy. Just don't be too good." ([[The Son Also Rises]])

During his tenure, defense attorney [[Romo Lampkin]] was one of Adama's students, likely meeting him while working in one of Caprica's civil litigation offices. Though Lampkin claims to have hated the man "because he was right" about the law, Lampkin also admits to learning everything he knows about the law from Adama, and even carries a worn copy of ''[[Law and Mind: The Psychology of Legal Practice]]'' with him. After first meeting Lee Adama, Lampkin claims that he looked like his grandfather ([[The Son Also Rises]]). Another book written by Adama is ''[[Trial Tactics and Strategies]]'' ([[Crossroads, Part I]]).

== The notorious lawyer ==

[[Image:Joseph adama.jpg|thumb|right|Joseph Adama's silver lighter ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).]]
Adama believed that law was a way of exorcising everyone's demons, a belief that lead him to defend "the worst of the worst." Lee Adama remembered reading about how Joseph let "murderers go free," though never understanding why Joseph put himself through the abuse. In a discussion with Lampkin, it is revealed to Lee that Adama sought to understand the motivations that cause people to cheat, why people reward their enemies, go to war, and why people [[Cylons (RDM)|build machines to correct their flaws and shortcomings]] ([[The Son Also Rises]]). Lee apparently remains ignorant to Joseph Adama's connections to the Ha'la'tha, while it is uncertain whether Lampkin knew of the connection.

Adama always carried a silver lighter during his cases; he considered it good luck, and claimed he only lost a case when he left it at home. He later gave it to his son William, who, after the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|holocaust]], loaned it to his own son as a token of luck for a [[Battle for the Tylium Asteroid|crucial mission]], which was returned to him after the mission's success ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).

Before going to trial, Adama would always break pencils before entering the courtroom as a reminder to "break preconceptions" and "work with what you had." He would then ask to borrow a pencil from the clerk. Adama's son recounted this ritual to [[Laura Roslin]] before her upcoming Presidential debate, leading her to try it herself ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]).

== Development of the Cylons ==

Adama bonded with [[Daniel Graystone]], a wealthy computer engineer whose daughter, [[Zoe Graystone]], was killed in the same suicide bombing in which Shannon and Tamara died. Adama reluctantly agreed to help Daniel create digitized versions ([[avatar]]s) of their daughters, using code created by Zoe to create a perfect copy. later, by stealing the [[meta-cognitive processor]] technology from Tauron technology developer [[Tomas Vergis]]. After Graystone creates an avatar of Tamara, Adama sees "her" in the virtual world of the [[holoband]], only to be appalled and disgusted by the technology after discovering that the Tamara there is distraught over not feeling alive. Extracting himself from the holoband, he voices his belief that Graystone is insane and that trying to bring back the dead via technology was unnatural ([[Caprica pilot]]).

== Notes ==

* According to the basic storyline for the proposed ''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'' TV series, Joseph Adama, a central character in the series, is a civil liberties lawyer and political opponent<ref>The [[w:Caprica (TV series)|Wikipedia Caprica Series Article]] cites this from a now vanished ''New York Post'' article on the series.</ref> of the [[Graystones|Graystone Family]], owners of the corporation that constructed the original robotic [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] on the colony of [[Caprica (RDM)|Caprica]]. While Adama's position in the controversy is uncertain, much of the political controversy surrounding the Cylons involved their slavery.<ref>{{cite_web|url=http://scifipulse.net/battlestarnews/RemiAubuchon.html|title=SciFi Pulse interview with Remi Aubuchon}}</ref>

== Family tree ==
{{Adama Family Tree (RDM)}}

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Characters (Caprica)}}

[[Category:A to Z]]
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[[de:Joseph Adama]]
[[zh:约瑟夫·阿达玛]]

Zoe Graystone

2009-09-02T21:16:14Z

Sauron18: Changed Main Image to Promotional Picture

{{cleanup}}
{{Character Data
|photo= Zoe Alessandra.jpg
|age= 16
|colony= [[Caprica (RDM)|Caprica]]
|callsign=
|seen= Caprica (series)
|pseen= ''Caprica pilot''
|death= ''Caprica pilot''
|parents= [[Daniel Graystone]] (father) [[Amanda Graystone]] (mother)
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status=Girlfriend of [[Ben Stark]] †
|role= Creator of first [[Cylon (RDM)|Cylon]] consciousness in the Twelve Colonies.
|rank=
|actor= [[Alessandra Toressani]]
|cylon=
|sortkey=Graystone, Zoe
}}
'''Zoe Graystone''' is the daughter of [[Daniel Graystone]], a brilliant and wealthy [[Caprica (RDM)|Caprican]] computer engineer and his wife [[Amanda Graystone]]. Her talent with computer programming is greatly admired by her friends. Later, after her death, her father learns the full extent of her talent, such as encryption coding, and he comes to admire her talent as well. Graystone's friends believed that her talents were God given for the purpose of revealing God to the worlds.

She was introduced to the worship of one [[God (RDM)|God]] by the headmistress of the [[Athena Academy]], Sister [[Clarice Willow]] and became a closet [[God (RDM)|monotheist]] in the [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)|polytheistic]] society of the [[Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]]. She created an exact virtual-reality duplicate of herself on the [[holoband]] network her father created 10 years before, presumably as a symbol or instrument to change to the worlds' monotheistic beliefs and morality. To that end Zoe tried to leave Caprica, running away from home with her boyfriend [[Ben Stark]], a fanatical monotheist, and her best friend [[Lacy Rand]] to live on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]] with new families. As they board the [[Lev]] for the port and a ship to Gemenon, Rand has second thoughts and stays behind. Stark and Graystone proceed, but Ben has other intentions. After Graystone sends a goodbye e-mail to her parents from her [[computer sheet]], she is horrified when Stark reveals a bomb strapped around his torso. Stark and Graystone perish when he sets off the bomb, killing [[Shannon Adama|Shannon]] and [[Tamara Adams]] as well. ([[Caprica pilot]])

Obsessed with resurrecting what is left of his dead daughter, Daniel Graystone downloads her virtual-reality avatar into a [[U-87|prototype military robot]], creating the first Cybernetic Life Form Node, or [[Cylon (RDM)|Cylon]].

==Zoe-A==

Before her death, Zoe found a way to upload her memories and DNA into a Virtual Reality hologram, thus creating an [[holographic avatar|online avatar]] of herself on the Holo-band network which her father invented, Zoe-A. She is intended to somehow "change the worlds" and Zoe had been teaching her about the alleged defects of their society that she will somehow bring society to the truth of the "One true God". Zoe-A resides in Virtual Reality in a room of an adolescent but decadent "V-Club" that only she occupies away from the others participating in the Virtual world. It is bare and dark with with a large four person sette. Votive candles are along around the walls. High up along those side walls and the wall behind the sette are stain glass windows (much like a Christian church in real life). It is essentially a temple to her. It could only be entered by Zoe, Lacy and presumably Ben by touching a virtual sensor shaped in the form of the Infinity symbol. After the suicide bombing, the avatar is left behind, suffering from sympathy burns from the rudimentary bio feedback subroutine that Zoe had set up so that Zoe-A can feel Zoe's experiences in the world, even though she could not do so directly. Lacy came to her to reconnect with her dead friend. At first she is horrified and confused over Zoe-A's apparent wounds and then rejects her momentarily as a friend saying she was merely a "thing" but changed her minds seeing Zoe-A's physical and emotional suffering. Later Daniel Graystone discovers Lacy's visitations of Zoe-A and after at first rejecting the notion of Zoe-A being her daughter, he steals her by downloading her data to a memory stick with the intention of downloading her into one of his prototype robots.

[[Image:Zoe-A.jpg|thumb|Zoe's online avatar.]]

==Zoe-R==

When Daniel Graystone discovers his daughter's online twin, he decides to recreate Zoe as a robot, using Zoe's avatar and technology stolen from his business competitor, [[Tomas Vergis]]. With the help of [[Joseph Adama|Joseph Adams]]'s (later Adama) organized crime contacts, whose [[Shannon Adama|wife]] and [[Tamara Adama|daughter]] also died in the same explosion, to steal an advanced technology from the Vergis Company, the Meta-Cognitive Processor (MCP) which is an artificial brain. The crime syndicate has Adams do a standing favor for it in return for stealing the processor. Adams is to persuade the Caprican Defense Minister to do a favor for the mob. Adams attempts this but fails to persuade the Defense Minister. However, the Mob is satisfied over Adams's efforts and obtains the technology for Graystone (the Defense Minister is later murdered in his bed possibly with Adams's knowledge). Graystone installs the MCP into a [[Cylon Prototype|U-87 Cyber Combat Unit]]. Zoe-A is downloaded into the memory of the U-87 by her "father" Daniel, and thus becomes Zoe-R, the first version of the Cylons in the Twelve Colonies. (Caprica pilot)

== Notes ==
*The name "Zoe" originally comes from the ancient Greek word for "life"<ref>{{cite_web|url=http://www.behindthename.com/name/zoe|title=Behind the Name:Zoe|date=|accessdate=7 April 2008|last=|first=|format=|language=}}</ref>, and is used in the [[w:New Testament|New Testament]] of the Bible 134 times to indicate the "eternal life" or the "life after death" in heaven rewarded to the children of God<ref>{{cite_web|url=http://www.biblical-baby-names.com/meaning-of-zoe.html|title=Biblical-Baby Names:Zoe|date=|accessdate=7 April 2008|last=|first=|format=|language=}}</ref>. This could be a reference to Zoe's own resurrection as Zoe-R, or it could be a religious reference to the Cylons' status as the children of [[God (RDM)|God]], or both.

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Characters (Caprica)}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
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Amanda Graystone

2009-09-02T21:15:13Z

Sauron18: Changed Main Image to Promotional Picture

{{spoiler}}
{{Character Data
|photo= Amanda Paula.jpg
|age=
|colony= [[Caprica (RDM)|Caprica]]
|callsign=
|seen= Caprica (series)
|pseen=''Caprica''
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|children= [[Zoe Graystone]]† (deceased)
|marital status= Married to [[Daniel Graystone|Daniel]]
|role= Surgeon
|rank=
|actor= [[Paula Malcomson]]
|cylon=
}}
'''Amanda Graystone''' is a successful [[Caprica (RDM)|Caprican]] surgeon married to [[Daniel Graystone]], the computer engineer who created the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]]. She is the mother of [[Zoe Graystone]].



== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Characters (Caprica)}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Graystone, Amanda}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
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Ellen Tigh

2009-08-30T19:41:22Z

Sauron18: Main Image: Changed to promotional picture from "No Exit"

{{Character Data|
|photo=Hellen.jpg
|age= 2,000+
|colony=[[Earth_(RDM)#Arrival_and_Ruins|Original Earth]]; she has a fabricated background of being from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]]<ref>As shown on her visitor's pass on ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' in "[[Colonial Day]]".</ref>
|birthname=
|callsign=
|seen= Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down
|death= 1. Nuclear destruction of Original Earth, c. 2000 BCH (resurrected in orbit) 2. suffocated by [[Number One]], c. 32 BCH (resurrected with false memories) 3. Poisoned by Saul Tigh on [[New Caprica]], 2 ACH (resurrected on a [[Basestar]], memories returned) 4. Eventually died after 4 ACH settlement on New Earth
|parents=John (father) Unnamed mother
|siblings=
|children=None biologically, Claims the [[Humanoid Cylons|eight Humanoid Cylon lines]] as her collective ''de facto'' children
|marital status=Married to [[Saul Tigh]] in all four lives
|role=Civilian, Military dependant, Creator of Humanoid Cylons, [[Resurrection (RDM)|Resurrection]] scientist
|rank=
|actor=[[Kate Vernon]]
|5cylon=Y
|name=
}}
'''Ellen Tigh''' is the wife of Colonel [[Saul Tigh]], a genius scientist, and a [[Final Five]] [[Cylon]]. According to [[Sam Anders]], she spearheaded the experiments that allowed Cylons to resurrect. She and the other four members of the Final Five Cylons are responsible for creating the humanoid Cylons that planned and carried out the [[Cylon Holocaust]].

According to [[William Adama]], her marriage to Saul Tigh was the reason that he took to drinking. While her husband was away from home, she apparently "went through half the [[Colonial Fleet (RDM)|(Colonial) fleet]]" in her sexual promiscuity. During the occupation of [[New Caprica]], she [[Precipice|collaborated with the Cylons]] and was killed by her husband, only to download to a Cylon [[Resurrection Ship]] ([[No Exit]]).

==Background==

===2,000 Years Ago===

Ellen Tigh lived on Earth two millennia ago. Like all humanoids living on Earth at the time, she was a Cylon: a member of the [[Thirteenth Tribe (RDM)|Thirteenth Tribe]]. There, she was one of five scientists researching "[[Resurrection (RDM)|organic memory transfer]]", a technology which had originated on Kobol, but fell out of use on Earth once the Thirteenth Tribe Cylons started to procreate naturally. [[Galen Tyrol]] did a lot to resurrect the technology, but it was Ellen who made the final advance that brought it back online. She was trapped under rubble in the lobby of her apartment building when nuclear war began. Her husband and fellow researcher, Saul, heard her cries and was able to clear only superficial debris from around her before they were both killed by the subsequent blasts. Her dying words to Saul were, "Saul, it's okay. Everything's in place. We'll be reborn…again. Together." ([[Sometimes a Great Notion]], [[No Exit]]) They and the other members of the Final Five downloaded into new bodies on a ship they'd placed in orbit. Knowing that humanity would continue to create artificial life, they made their way the Twelve Colonies to warn them about the dangers of doing that, but it took them 2,000 years to get there due to their ship's lack of a [[Propulsion in the Re-imagined Series|jump drive]]. Travelling at relativistic speeds, they subjectively experienced much less time than that.

===Modern===

Upon their arrival, the first [[Cylon War]] was already in progress between humans and [[Cylon Centurion Model 0005|Centurions]]. Ellen and the others made a deal with the Centurions: end the war and the Final Five would help them build [[humanoid Cylon]]s. They made eight models and their technology was stored in [[The Colony]]. The first creation was [[Number One]], better known as Cavil, who was made in the image of Ellen's father John and named after him. Ellen was close to [[Number Seven]] but when Cavil got jealous, he wiped out the Number Seven copies permanently, before they could be grown to maturity. Cavil suffocated the Final Five, [[Boxing|boxed]] them temporarily, then eventually unboxed them, downloading them into new bodies but blocking their real memories and implanting false ones then putting them into the human population in order to show them the evils of humanity.

She was unboxed not long after her husband and even though their true memories were gone, they ended up together again and got married. At some point prior to Adama taking command of ''Galactica'' she celebrates what seems to be the end of Adama and Tigh's military carrer with them at a bar and is happy that Saul will be home more as she just wants to be with him. However he follows Adama into his command of ''Galactica'' and this may have contributed to their estrangment.

Colonel [[Saul Tigh]], estranged from his wife and realizing her tendencies, finds himself burning a cigar hole in a photo of Ellen, just as [[Action Stations|action station klaxons]] ring throughout the decommissioned [[Galactica (RDM)|battlestar]] as the start of the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Cylon attack]].

With the Colonies destroyed, billions of people are dead and Ellen Tigh is presumed to be one of the many suffering that fate ([[Miniseries]]).

==Character History at a Glance==

*Commander Adama secretly visits a ship in the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]], telling none on his command staff of his goal. He returns to ''Galactica'' and a curious Colonel Tigh with an unexpected surprise: a living Ellen Tigh.
*Ellen Tigh claims to have been on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]] at the time of the Cylon attack, on her way back home for a reunion with her husband. When the airport was hit in the attack, she claims an anonymous hero - later revealed to be a [[Number One]] - found her unconscious body and got her on to one of the last transports out, where she had been unconscious aboard the ''[[Rising Star (RDM)|Rising Star]]'' for some three weeks prior to Adama finding her.
*Following the reunion, Ellen claims she wants to make a fresh start, but no sooner as Saul (still hopelessly in love with her) agrees, Ellen influences him back to drinking heavily and begins flirting openly with other men.
*Her first target is an unwilling [[Lee Adama]] during dinner with Lee, his father and [[Laura Roslin]]. Later she flirts with [[Gaius Baltar]] with greater effect - annoying her husband in the process.
*Ellen Tigh's rescue claims are immediately considered suspect. No one on the ''Rising Star'' can remember treating her through her long weeks of unconsciousness.
*Ellen Tigh takes an unnatural interest in Adama's plans to lead the fleet to Earth, almost badgering him into trying to reveal how long the journey will take. Her actions seem to support Adama's precaution of having Baltar scan Ellen's blood sample to see if she is a Cylon (unbeknownst to her husband).
*Baltar's tests conclude that Ellen Tigh is human, and this quiets Adama's suspicion. But Dr. Baltar self-sabotages his own Cylon detection efforts, fearing that exposing a humanoid Cylon would expose him in his duplicity in the Cylon attack, or to assassination.
*Commander Adama points out, "Cylon or not, (Ellen Tigh is) nothing but trouble." ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]])
<div style="clear: both;"></div>
[[image:Bsg-ellen-1.jpg|thumb|right|Ellen Tigh at the bar aboard ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' where she meets with [[Tom Zarek]] ([[Colonial Day]])]]
*On [[Colonial Day (holiday)|Colonial Day]], Ellen Tigh states her belief that terrorist-turned-politician [[Tom Zarek]] is "the future", and greets him warmly over her husband's objections.
*Later on in the next day, after [[Wallace Gray]]'s poor showing at the Quorum, Ellen Tigh and Zarek talk over a drink, vaguely discussing their own ambitions.
*An associate of Zarek, [[Valance]], is later found dead. Colonel Tigh is among the few who know where the man was held.
*The following evening, at Gaius Baltar's victory celebration, Shortly thereafter, Ellen Tigh dances with her husband and tells him of a "surprise" she has arranged on the ''[[Rising Star (RDM)|Rising Star]]''. She tells him not only to enjoy some time alone there with her, but to discuss "his future" with some people there. She then embraces her husband and locks eyes with Zarek, seated across the room ([[Colonial Day]]).
*After Adama's attempted assassination, Ellen Tigh encourages her husband to take extreme measures to assert his authority, sometimes in contrast to the more reasoned approaches he is proposing.
*Ellen Tigh convinces her husband to let the [[Quorum of Twelve]] witness the delusional Roslin, whom she saw earlier in a poor state. But, thanks to a smuggled [[chamalla]] dose, Roslin shows her resolve and power, which invigorates the Quorum ([[Resistance]]).
*Colonel Tigh begins to relent and considers reconciliation with the captains of other ships in the Fleet, but Ellen goads him into advocating "stern measures." Her pressures lead her husband to drink and take irrational steps, including a standoff on the ''[[Gideon]]'' that leaves four people dead.
*Soon after Lee Adama escapes with President Roslin from the [[brig]], the colonel receives a scolding from his wife in his quarters when the recently awakened Commander Adama arrives. Ellen is asked to leave, her hand gripping the door frame fiercely in frustration of her turn of fortune as she leaves ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]).
*Ellen Tigh's insistence to her husband for action with the supply boycott returns to terrorize her when Lieutenant [[Joe Palladino]] later attempts to exact revenge on Colonel Tigh for the Gideon incident, tying up Ellen and holding her husband at gunpoint. Colonel Tigh is able to defuse the situation ([[Final Cut]]).
*Ellen Tigh seems to spend much of her time in the Fleet bar-hopping on ships like ''Cloud 9'', where she is held hostage in a terrorist action. ''Galactica'' marines later storm the bar and rescue the group ([[Sacrifice]]).

==New Caprica==
[[Image:Saulellen.jpg|Saul handing Ellen her poisoned drink.|thumb]]
One year after [[New Caprica]] is colonized, Ellen Tigh settles on the planet. Her husband joins her later, after Admiral Adama's insistence. Interestingly, they seem to fully reconcile during this time (possibly due to Saul leaving the Colonial Fleet which is something she always wanted so she could be with him full time). When the Tighs encounter Starbuck, both greet her warmly having apparently put aside their differences with her at some point. Shortly thereafter the Cylon fleet discovers the planet, the Colonial Fleet in orbit jumps away, and the Cylon occupation of New Caprica begins ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

Four months after the occupation, Ellen Tigh's husband is imprisoned in the [[New Caprica Detention Center]], resulting in the loss of his right eye. In order to secure his release, Ellen enters into a deal with a [[Cavil]] model. After her sexual encounter with Cavil, her husband is released ([[Occupation]]).

However, as Ellen Tigh later finds out from this same Cavil, Saul is released in order to further the Cylons' plans to tighten their grip on the civilian population. Despite the release, Ellen reports back to Cavil to further fornicate with him, suggesting some sort of long term sexual agreement. In the aftermath of a session, Cavil demands that she must find out when the next high-level meeting of the resistance is to convene; failure to do so will result in Saul being recaptured and imprisoned again.

Ellen Tigh steals a map of [[Breeders Canyon]], created by [[Samuel Anders]], which Saul gave to her to destroy in a nearby tent fire ([[Precipice]]).

The map is later found on a dead humanoid Cylon by Anders' team after he and Fleet liaison [[Sharon Agathon]] eliminate the Centurion attack. Ellen Tigh is soon found and forced into the underground hideout, where Colonel Tigh is told of his wife's deception and confronts his wife ([[Exodus, Part I]]).

The resistance leaders compel Saul Tigh to execute his wife for collaboration with the Cylons. Saul carries out the execution by poisoning Ellen's drink prior to the [[Battle of New Caprica]] ([[Exodus, Part II]]).

== Saul's Vision of Ellen ==

When Colonel [[Saul Tigh]] visits [[Caprica Six]] in the [[brig]], to inform her that her request to see [[Hera Agathon]] has been denied, he begins to see Ellen in Six's place. The woman he sees still has the clothes and hair of Number Six, but the face and body of Ellen Tigh. She speaks the same words as Six, but in Ellen's voice.

Later, Colonel Tigh returns to the cell where Caprica Six is held. Wanting to find out how Cylons deal with pain and guilt, he questions Six to learn that the Cylons have modeled their brains around the human brain and have found a "human" way to shut off pain by accepting it. During this conversation, the "Virtual Ellen" appears and removes Saul's eye patch in an act of tenderness, which Saul rebukes ([[Escape Velocity]]). However, their relationship soon becomes sexual and Tigh, still occasionally seeing Ellen in Caprica's place, impregnates the Cylon ("[[Sine Qua Non]]").

==Revelation of her true nature==
In a vision on Earth, Saul Tigh sees Ellen trapped underneath a slab of rock fallen after a nuclear blast. He tries to free her, but before they're both killed in another nuclear blast she tells him that they'll be reborn together. Coming out of the vision, Saul Tigh realizes the truth: Ellen is the last of the [[Final Five]].

==Post-New Caprica Resurrection==
After dying on New Caprica, Ellen downloads into a new body aboard a [[Resurrection Ship]]. Initially frightened, Ellen quickly remembers her entire history, including her time on Earth, her resurrection having apparently restored all of her memories. She is soon confronted by [[Brother Cavil]], who she calls "John." It is revealed that John was the first humanoid Cylon designed by the Final Five. It soon becomes evident that all of the seven familiar humanoid Cylons were designed by the Final Five, as well as an eighth model, [[Number Seven]], whose line was destroyed by Cavil.

Ellen is held prisoner on a [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]] for 18 months, and allowed contact only with Cavil and [[Boomer (RDM)|Boomer]]. After the destruction of the [[Resurrection Hub]], Cavil threatens Ellen with vivisection unless she helps the Cylons rebuild the hub. Ellen refuses, and is soon being readied for surgery, when Boomer helps her to escape ([[No Exit]]). Ellen and Boomer make it back to the Galactica ([[Deadlock]]). She is seen discussing the mission to [[The Colony]] with [[Tory Foster]], and volunteers the Final Five to go, much to Tory's dismay ([[Daybreak, Part I]]).

During the battle, she Tory and Tyrol take care of Anders and Ellen stays by his side during everything. She is shocked to learn that Tory murdered Cally, but both she and Tigh forgive Tyrol for killing her in revenge. She and Saul rekindle their relationship and decide to spend the rest of their lives together on humanity's new homeworld which they name Earth ([[Daybreak, Part II]]).

==Unanswered Questions==

*Does Ellen Tigh arrange for [[Valance]]'s death herself, or just provide his location to a third party?
*What favors does Ellen receive in return? What does she intend Saul to discuss on the ''[[Rising Star (RDM)|Rising Star]]'', and with whom?
**Does Ellen's choice of a "getaway spot" have anything to do with her mysterious appearance aboard that ship four weeks earlier?
*How surprised is Ellen by Zarek's defeat? Is her association with him still advantageous to her?
*How much, if any, of her original memories did Ellen possess prior to her "death" on New Caprica? Given the revelation that Number One is based upon her father, was she aware of this when she had sex with the Cavil copy on New Caprica?
*Was Ellen the one [[Number Three]] was heard apologizing to during her vision?

==Cinematic Trivia==
[[Image:Miniseries Ellen.jpg|right|thumb|150px|Jennifer Birchfield-Eick as Ellen Tigh in the [[Miniseries]].]]
In the DVD commentary for the [[Miniseries]], it is revealed that Ellen Tigh was originally portrayed in picture form only by executive producer [[David Eick]]'s wife, Jennifer. The picture was later replicated for the series with Kate Vernon taking the place of Mrs. Eick and the scene reshot, so Saul Tigh is seen burning a picture of Vernon in the "flashback" sequence at the beginning of "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down."

==The Macbeth Connection==
Ellen Tigh can be profitably compared with one of Shakespeare's most memorable women. Like Lady Macbeth, Ellen is married to a man who is in the line of command, but who doesn't want the top job. She uses a combination of insult, flattery, and sexual temptation to get her husband in the game, arranges the murder of others, and even makes alcohol one of her most potent weapons (in the play, Lady Macbeth gets the castle guards drunk so that she and her husband can kill the king and princes). In the words of Lady M herself, to her husband, "Hie thee hither, that I may pour my spirits in thine ear, and chastise with the valour of my tongue all that impedes thee from the golden round."

In fact, of all Shakespeare's plays, ''Macbeth'' is a particularly appropriate one for a series about evil robots who seem human on the outside ("fair is foul and foul is fair"), who are experts at lying and manipulation ("And oftentimes, to win us to our harm, the instruments of darkness tell us truths, win us with honest trifles, to betray us'n deepest consequence"), and who chase our heroes through the gulf of space (at least one scholar has noted that all of the play's most memorable scenes "take place either at night or in some dark spot"). Like Macbeth himself, [[Saul Tigh]] is famous for a bout of vicious hand to hand fighting in the recent war ("For brave Macbeth ... disdaining Fortune, with his brandish'd steel which smok'd with bloody execution ... carv'd out that passage").

== References ==

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[[de:Ellen Tigh]]
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Resurrection (RDM)

2009-08-30T19:35:40Z

Sauron18: Image: Changed to a more standard resurrection

:''For information on a book based on the [[Original Series]] universe, see [[Resurrection (book)]].

[[Image:Season 3 - Promo - Hero - Three Rebirth Camber.jpg|thumb|250px|[[Number Three]] reborn.]]

'''Resurrection''' is the term that refers to the process wherein the consciousnesses and memories of a [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] whose body had been destroyed are captured and recovered.

==Humanoid Cylon Resurrection==

When a [[humanoid Cylon]]'s body ceases to function, their consciousness can be transmitted (or "downloaded") into a duplicate humanoid Cylon body, one which is empty of consciousness before the download ([[Miniseries]]).

For resurrection to occur, the dying Cylon must be close to a resurrection ship or hub, otherwise his or her consciousness risks being permanently lost. The transmission method of a Cylon's consciousness has not been explained, but a form of [[wireless]] is probable. Resurrection points identified include the [[Cylon homeworld]], the central [[Resurrection Hub]], [[Resurrection Ship]]s, and planet-based facilities. A rebirthing facility may have existed on [[Caprica (RDM)|occupied Caprica]]. Within each resurrection point is at least one [[Cylon rebirthing tank|rebirthing tank]], where a duplicate body is immersed in a thick opaque substance to await download ([[Downloaded]]).

While humanoid Cylons appear to be able to be resurrected indefinitely, two problems can occur. Repeated downloads can cause pain and other unexplained symptoms. A [[Cavil]] reports severe headaches after one resurrection, and a sensation that felt like "a white hot poker in my skull" in a following instance ([[Exodus, Part I]]). However, only Cavil has complained about this extreme discomfiture. This might be a subjective or singular experience, as a Number Three finds a download to be rejuvenating (Downloaded). Cavil's discomfort maybe even (apparent) age related. The Cavils apparent physical age is around 70 years old and therefore they resurrect as a 70 year old man. Cavil complained to [[Ellen Tigh]], one of the [[Final Five]] that created the Eight "modern day" Cylon models including the first John Cavil (who is modeled after her father), of his various physical aliments like the "....faulty blood pressure in this miserable body you designed for me!" Apparently the Final Five mirrored the human physique so closely they also modeled the afflictions of the elderly (while silmuteneously giving them enhance abilities like super strength and stamina. ([[No Exit]]). Far more threatening is if a humanoid Cylon's memories have become compromised, corrupted, or otherwise tainted (based on the perspective of other Cylons). If that occurs, the consciousness might not be downloaded, instead being "[[boxed]]," a drastic measure equivalent in Cylon society to capital punishment. Conversations in "Downloaded" suggest that this practice is very rare, and [[Number Three]] is is the only case of an entire model being boxed ([[Rapture]]).

It is also apparent that the resurrection process is involuntary in that humanoid Cylons cannot ''choose'' to die permanently, nor can other Cylons in control of a Resurrection Ship choose to prevent someone from being downloaded. The only way to prevent a dead Cylon from downloading is to move the Resurrection Ship out of range ([[Torn]]). An example of this is when Sharon Agathon downloads to a Resurrection Ship to rescue her child. Despite being a traitor, the Cylons do not stop her and she is able to rescue her child as a result ([[Rapture]]). Furthermore, [[Gina Inviere]], a Cylon prisoner aboard ''Pegasus'' who was tortured so badly she wants to die for good, is unable to control her resurrection. To ensure her permanent death, she supplies the Colonials with information on the Resurrection Ship, so that it can be destroyed ([[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]).

One apparent side effect of resurrection is the resoration of blocked memories: when Ellen Tigh was killed by her husband and downloaded, she got her memories that were blocked by Cavil after her previous resurrection back as soon as she resurrected.

==The process of Resurrection==

Very little is known about the mechanics of downloading, other than what can be inferred and comments made from official crew members. [[Jane Espenson]], co-producer and writer, notes that not all Cylons of the same model line share the same knowledge, and thus knowledge is variable between Cylons of the same model line. Further, Espenson notes that memories are stored and "can be accessed by a curious Cylon who knows how".<ref>{{cite_web|url=http://io9.com/371157/jane-espenson-talks-about-writing-for-firefly-and-battlestar-++-and-gives-a-little-secret-cylon-backstory|title=i09.com Interview: Jane Espenson Talks About Writing for Firefly and Battlestar -- and Gives a Little Secret Cylon Backstory|date=31 March 2008|accessdate=3 April 2008|last=Anders|first=Charlie James|format=|language=}}</ref>

As for the length of time between death and successful resurrection, it is implied that, with a proper setup, a complete download can be performed in no shorter than two days. This measurement comes from [[Timeline (RDM)#Exodus, Part I|the download of the Cavil]] previously mentioned in "[[Exodus, Part I|Exodus, Parts I]] [[Exodus, Part II|& II]]". However, too little is known to determine whether this is among the quickest or the lowest amounts of time required to download, as the audience is not privy to the logistical or technological barriers of the process. Also, if a lot of Cylons are killed at once, it can take a while to resurrect them all as after Caprica Six killed D'Anna Biers, she said due to the amount of Cylons killed by a bombing, it would take at least 36 hours to even get to her. It also indicates that Cylons are resurrected in the order that they are killed in as it was indicated that she was going to be the last to be resurrected.

Downloading also apparently has something to do with the datastream as when Ellen Tigh was killed and downloaded into a new body, it showed her in a datastream.

==Raider Resurrection==
The semi-sentient personalities of [[Cylon Raider (RDM)|Raiders]] also can be retrieved. This allows the Raiders to return to fight with greater tactical awareness ([[Scar]]).

The Raider known as "[[Scar (Raider)|Scar]]" may have been one such Raider to learn master fighting tactics. The Scar personality scores many Colonial kills before its permanent destruction.

Raider resurrection also requires a Resurrection Ship in order to take place.
==The Development of Resurrection Technology==

Resurrection was originally invented on [[Kobol (RDM)|Kobol]] for humanoid Cylons some three thousand years ago ([[No Exit]]).

After the [[Pythia|departure from Kobol of these humanoid Cylons]], the Cylons of Kobol, later known as the [[Thirteenth Tribe (RDM)|Thirteenth Tribe]], eventually settled on [[Earth (RDM)|Earth]]. During the next thousand years on Earth the humanoid Cylons gained the ability to procreate in the same manner as humans, complete with childhood.

As a result, resurrection technology was unneeded, its knowledge lost to time. Approximately 2,000 years ago, five [[Final Five|Earth Cylons]] - [[Saul Tigh]], [[Tory Foster]], [[Samuel Anders]], [[Galen Tyrol]] and [[Ellen Tigh]] - who (like all Cylons by that time) were born naturally, attempted to reinvent resurrection technology, formally known as "Organic Memory Transference" where the mind-the memories, personality, and consciousness-is transferred from the dead body to a perfectly identical living body that had no previous mind.

A [[virtual being]] appeared to each the five, warning them of an impending holocaust on Earth. The humanoid Cylons had oppressed their version of Centurions, and as would occur [[First Cylon War|in the Twelve Colonies]], destruction was probable. Before the holocaust, the five, all researchers in the same research facility, worked around the clock to recreate the technology that was lost. According to Sam Anders's recount, the work of Galen Tyrol and Ellen Tigh was exceptional with Mrs. Tigh making the "intuitive leap" to get the system back online. When the war came all five were killed, but they were resurrected on a ship they had prearranged near Earth.

Seeing the utter destruction of [[Earth (RDM)|Earth]] and knowing the cause they were determined for it not to happen again. They knew that the humans were trying to create "artificial life" as well so they headed in their ship for the twelve human Colonies that were settled 1,000 years before to warn them not to make the same mistake they did and to be kind to their creations. However, they only had a ship without [[FTL]]--on Earth, the technology was not yet invented. As a result, travel to the Twelve Colonies was [[w:Theory of Relativity|relativitistic]]: on board the ship, travel time was only a few years, but the voyage was actually 2,000 years.

By the time they reached the Twelve Colonies of Kobol, it was too late--the First Cylon War had already stretched for 12 years.

The Colonial version of Cylon Centurions were trying to develop flesh and blood humanoid Cylons just like the Final Five but couldn't get past the [[Hybrid]] stage. The Final Five proposed a deal to end the war: If the Centurions stopped their war against humans they will help them perfect humanoid Cylons, complete with resurrection. The Centurions agreed to the deal and ceased the war with the signing of an [[armistice]]. They then with the Final Five sequestered themselves on a world they called [[The Colony]] and developed humanoid Cylons and recreated resurrection technology.

===Cavil's deception of the Final Five and the destruction of Resurrection===
The Five downloaded at least once more after their initial download during the nuclear holocaust on Earth 2,000 years before. The Final Five and the Centurions were successful in recreating [[humanoid Cylon]]s and resurrection. The first was John Cavil, and he helped the Final Five create the other seven new Cylon models. However, Cavil held a deep grudge against humanity for enslaving his Centurion ancestors. To demonstrate the many faults of mankind, Cavil murdered the Final Five, [[Boxing|boxed]] them, and ultimately unboxed them but downloaded them with their real memories blocked and false memories in their places. Cavil then proceded to instigate [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|the attack on the Colonies]]. He apparently expected them to die in the attack. Previously it was revealed that before the Resurrection Hub was destroyed, a Cylon could download as long as they were within range. This also applied to the [[Final Five]]. [[Cavil]] kept at least one fresh body for each of them, as was proven when [[Saul Tigh]] killed [[Ellen Tigh]] and she downloaded into a new body. Apparently Cavil planned for them to rejoin the Cylons when they were killed in the attack on the Colonies he apparently instigated and hoped that they'd admit that they made a mistake in supporting humanity and see, in Cavil's view, the bestial nature of mankind and join him in their destruction.  

Shortly after the start of the Cylon Civil War, Resurrection for all Cylons again ended with the destruction of the [[Resurrection Hub]]. A joint attack on the Cylons' [[Resurrection Hub]], which controls all Resurrection Ships, by Cylon rebels (The Leobens, Sixes and Sharons) and Colonial forces results in the Hub's destruction. As a result, the Cylons lose their ability to download, making them truly mortal for the first time in their history ([[The Hub]]).
The original equipment that the Final Five used to replicate Resuraction Technology was still on [[The Colony]] perhaps as a precaution against Ellen Tigh revealing the location of The Colony Cavil, five months prior to the events of [[Islanded in a Stream of Stars]] and just ''before'' the start of the civil war Cavil moved it to the present location. It is essentially a [[wikipedia:Planetoid|planetoid]] sized space station constructed along the same principles the Baseships are with biological elements. This is where [[Boomer]] delivered [[Hera]] to [[Cavil]] in that episode.

==Post Destruction of Resurrection and its Possible Recreation==
When the Resurrection Hub was destroyed, and they lost of the ability to resurrect, the Cavil-allied Cylons (Cavils, Dorals and Simons) didn't know how to rebuild it as it was technology from the Final Five. Cavil tried to get Ellen Tigh to help rebuild it, but she claimed that she couldn't do it without Anders, Tyrol, [[Tory Foster]], and her husband, as she only knew part of the system herself. Cavil scoffed at this and decided to mine Ellen's brain in an attempt to find the information, but [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] helped her escape, apparently cutting off the Cylons' only chance at rebuilding the technology. However this "escape" proved to be another deception by John Cavil as he let Ellen Tigh go in an ersatz escape in order for Boomer to find the fleet and capture [[Hera Agathon]], the human-Cylon mixed child which Boomer has successfully has brought back to Cavil in the present [[The Colony|Cylon Homeworld]]. The specific plans he has for Hera and what she has to do with resurrection-if anything-is not known as of [[Islanded in a Stream of Stars]]. Options include Cavil, having forgone Resurrection, has taken Hera to determine how she was conceived by Cylon-human natural procreation as a key to Cylon-Cylon breeding and has abandoned Resurrection all together.

==Resurrection as a possible end to the Cylon-Human War and its final end==
During the [[Battle of The Colony]], Saul Tigh offers to give back Resurrection if Cavil lets Hera (who he's holding hostage in CIC) go and stops persuing humanity. Cavil agrees and calls off his forces. The Five combine together to recreate the plans for Resurrection and transmit them to The Colony as each holds a piece of the puzzle. With the Five giving back Resurrection and the deal made with Cavil, it looks like resurrection's return will finally end the war with peace between the sides, but Tyrol breaks the download to kill Tory after learning of her killing his wife. The download was incomplete and hostilities resume as the Cylons think they've been betrayed and the battle ends with the destruction of The Colony and all of Cavil's forces. With Tory's death at the hands of Tyrol, and Anders' death when he pilots ''Galactica'' and the rest of the Fleet into the Sun, destroying the ships, it is likely that the Ones, Fours and Fives succumbed to old age before they were able to recover the technology if any survived the destruction of The Colony by ''Galactica''.

== References ==

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[[de:Auferstehung]]

Cylon Religion

2009-08-02T22:26:32Z

Sauron18: /* Possible origin */ Added comment on Infinity symbol

:''This article discusses the religion of the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] of the [[Re-imagined Series]].''
:''In the [[Original Series]], the [[Cylons (TOS)|Cylons]] have no documented religion.''
:''For summary information on the Colonial faiths as seen in the Original Series, see [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (TOS)]].''

{{RDM cylons series}}

The majority of the so-called [[Significant Seven]] [[Cylons]] follow a '''monotheistic religion''' handed down to them from the [[Cylon Centurion Model 0005|Centurions]] and the [[Final Five]]. This is distinct from the [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies|polytheistic religion]] followed by most of the Colonial Humans and the Terrestrial Cylons known as the [[Thirteenth Tribe]] (from which come the Final Five).

Unless otherwise indicated, the term "Cylon" as used herein refers collectively to Centurion Model 0005, and humanoid Models [[Number Two|Two]] (Leoben), [[Number Three|Three]] (D'Anna), [[Number Four|Four]] (Simon), [[Number Five|Five]] (Aaron), [[Number Six|Six]], [[Number Eight|Eight]] (Sharon), and presumably [[Number Seven|Seven]] (Daniel); and to their beliefs. As previously indicated, these beliefs differ from those of the Thirteenth Tribe, which shared a polytheistic tradition with the twelve Human tribes. The Final Five Cylons of the Thirteenth Tribe adopted the Centurions' monotheistic beliefs when they allied with them, incorporating this belief system into the new models they created, but the tampering the [[Number One|Cavil]]s did with the memories of the Five robbed them of this knowledge. The [[Number One]] model line (John Cavil) are atheists. It is unclear whether the semi-sentient [[Raider (RDM)|Raiders]] and [[Cylon Centurion|modern Centurions]] have even the capacity to process religion. Cylon religion supposes that the [[Hybrid]]s can communicate with God, but what if any beliefs the Hybrids themselves hold is unclear, aside from their belief that [[Kara Thrace]] is the harbinger of death; since undergoing brain surgery, Thrace's husband, Final Five Cylon [[Samuel Anders]] has effectively become a Hybrid, and echoes their characterisation of Thrace. [[Sharon Agathon]] and [[Karl Agathon]] are a monotheist and a polytheist respectively, so it is unknown that religion(s) they are imparting to the human-Cylon hybrid child [[Hera Agathon|Hera]].

Prior to the [[First Cylon War]], a small sect of humans secretly practiced a monotheistic religion. This movement has been reborn under [[Gaius Baltar]] who preaches Cylon dogma taught to him by [[Virtual-Six]]. Terrestrial Cylons [[Tory Foster]] and [[Galen Tyrol]] appear to have converted to monotheism as well under Baltar's ministry, whereas [[Saul Tigh]] has not despite [[Caprica-Six]]'s influence.<ref>He continues to speak of the plural "gods" vice the singular, and refers to Baltar's followers as kooks ("[[The Oath]]").</ref> Presently, only [[Ellen Tigh]] and Samuel Anders have recovered their memories from the time when they allied with the Centurions and embraced their beliefs.

==God==
The Cylons believe that [[God (RDM)|God]] created mankind. Humanity, to the Cylons, is a flawed creation, one that is sinful and has essentially thrown away the gift of the soul and of God's love. The Cylons believe that God directed humanity to create the Cylons as a more perfect entity. From there, the Cylons believe they were to take the place of the flawed humans in the cosmos and become, essentially, the next generation of humankind.

The Cylons, seeing themselves as mankind's children, believe they cannot not truly come into their own until the human race is gone. The logical conclusion they reach is that they must commit genocidal "parenticide" in order to evolve and mature ([[Podcast:Torn#Act_2|"Torn" Podcast, Act 2]]).

==Attitude toward Colonial Religion==
The Cylons believe in a singular deity and reject the worship of multiple deities <ref>This is similar, but not necessarily identical, to the beliefs of the [[w:Abrahamic religion|Abrahamic religions]], such as [[w:Judaism|Judaism]], [[w:Christianity|Christianity]] and [[w:Islam|Islam]].</ref>. Although unbelievers sometimes refer to this being as the "Cylon God", it has been frequently explained that God is the one true God of all, human and Cylon. As such, its followers view the Colonial worship of the [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies#The Lords of Kobol|Lords of Kobol]] as blasphemous ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]). The Cylons claim that they know the [[Sacred Scrolls|scriptures of the human religion]] better than humanity does, but do not believe the Sacred Scrolls to be literally true ([[Home, Part I]]). They acknowledge the historicity of the Lords of Kobol without accepting their divinity.

That said, the Cylons tolerate Colonial religion on [[New Caprica]], and direct evangelism has been mainly limited to [[Leoben Conoy (New Caprica copy)|Leoben's]] workings on [[Kara Thrace]].

==Beliefs==
The Cylons apparently worship a metaphysical being, a being that wishes for all to believe in it and love it, human and Cylon alike. The Cylon religion includes concepts of "sin". For example, the [[Virtual beings|virtual Number Six]] warns [[Gaius Baltar]] that suicide was a mortal sin when he jokingly suggests killing himself ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]). A tortured Number Six copy named [[Gina]] does not [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II|initially]] kill herself to escape horrific torture because she believes that suicide is a sin ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]])..

The Cylons maintain that one of God's commandments is to procreate ("be fruitful"), but the humanoid Cylons are incapable of procreating with each other. The Cylons apparently strictly define "procreation" as biological reproduction, and not creation of copies of existing Cylon models using asexual, industrial, or laboratory techniques. As a result, the Cylons began attempts to create a Cylon-human hybrid (deemed more feasible than their previous attempts at procreation amongst their own kind). To this end they developed "[[farms]]" on the occupied Twelve Colonies to create a hybrid, but these attempts continued without success.<ref>This Cylon-human hybrid child should not be confused with the living humanoid central computer of a [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]], also known to the Cylons as a "[[Hybrid]]".</ref>

Most Cylons espouse monotheistic views, but often with subtle differences in interpretation. For instance, [[Leoben Conoy]] believes that "We are all God". The [[John Cavil]] model is the only one that is openly atheistic.

The first successful Cylon-human Hybrid, [[Hera Agathon]], the daughter of [[Sharon Agathon|Sharon]] and [[Karl Agathon]], is literally considered to be a "miracle from God" by the Cylons ([[Final Cut]]).

==Possible origin==
A small minority of monotheistic humans existed on the [[Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]] before the Fall. Their religion was looked upon as dangerous and heretical by the majority of Colonial society and most of them were forced to hide their beliefs. The secret monotheistic organization was known as the [[Soldiers of the One]] and considered a terrorist group by the Caprica government.

Two of them were [[Zoe Graystone]], a closeted monotheist and her boyfriend, [[Ben Stark]], who was more fanatical of the two. Graystone and Stark died in a suicide bombing caused by the latter, but Zoe had created a digital copy of herself before her death. Zoe Graystone's avatar, Zoe-A, was later uploaded into the first Colonial Cylon, a mechanical model created by her father, [[Daniel Graystone]]. The fact that the first Centurion in the Colonies had the memories of a human monotheist might have been the cause of the Cylons' belief in one God.

Further hints of the group's legacy can be seen during the [[Cylon Civil War]], at a [[Humanoid Cylon|Cylon]] funerary service that takes place on the [[Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]], where the usage of ornaments and amulets in the form of the "Infinity" symbol can be observed ([[Islanded in a Stream of Stars]]). This same symbol is used to represent the Soldiers of the One more than sixty years earlier, and may suggest a deeper connection between the two monotheistic groups.

==Analysis==
The concept that the religious beliefs of the Cylons are similar to the real-life Abrahamic religions of planet Earth is a plot twist which executive producer [[Ron Moore]] developed and considers to be an intriguing switch: normally, the "Good Guys" in a TV show are monotheists, and the "bad guys" are polytheists. However, in the Re-imagined Series, the "good" humans follow a polytheistic religion that worships a parallel of the Greek gods, while the "bad" Cylons worship a monotheistic God, similar to real-life Abrahamic religions.

The Cylon God and the Lords of Kobol have an "overlapping" existence that is confusing to both Colonial and Cylon sides. Both sides appear to be guided to conflict (and, in rare instances, cooperation) through events that appear pre-destined. The story arc of finding the [[Arrow of Apollo]] involves the hunt for the [[Tomb of Athena]] by the Colonials. According to the Sacred Scrolls, the humans will be aided by a "minor demon." The cooperative [[Sharon Agathon|Sharon Valerii copy]] assists the group in finding the tomb.

In another instance, the [[oracle]] [[Dodona Selloi]] tells [[Number Three]] that the Lords of Kobol, specifically [[Zeus, Lord of Kobol|Zeus]], are sad for her. The oracle then relays a message from the Cylon God to Three of the existence of Hera Agathon and the imminent failure of the occupation of [[New Caprica]] ([[Exodus, Part I]]).

The convergence of the Cylon and Colonial religion occurs yet again at the [[algae planet]], where possession of the [[Eye of Jupiter]] is fought over by the two sides. While the Colonials believe the [[Temple of Five]] on the planet was built by the [[Thirteenth Tribe (RDM)|Thirteenth Tribe]] to represent five priests who worshiped "[[the one whose name cannot be spoken]]", one Cylon (Number Three) and Gaius Baltar believe that the significance of the Temple has something to do with the [[Final five|five missing humanoid Cylons]]. Lieutenant [[Felix Gaeta]] discovers that the algae planet's sun will soon go nova; both he and Admiral Adama do not believe that the curious coincidences of Colonial and Cylon involvement with the Eye, at that particular place and time, as merely coincidental ([[The Eye of Jupiter]]).

Cylon attitude towards their own religion varies between the models, and it is this variation that is one of the major causes of the [[Cylon Civil War]]. The [[Number Four|Fours]] and [[Number Five|Fives]] follow the lead of the atheist [[Number One|Ones]] with the more reverent [[Number Two|Twos]], [[Number Six|Sixes]], and [[Number Eight|Eights]] in opposition.

==Sayings and Prayers==
*[[Leoben Conoy]]: (at a dinner table with [[Kara Thrace]]) "Heavenly father, we thank you for the bounty of this table…" ([[Occupation]])
*[[Number Three]]: "[There is] no other god but God." ([[Exodus, Part II]]) <ref>This resembles the islamic [[w:Shahada|Shahada]]: "I bear witness that there is no god except for God (Allah), and Muhammad is the messenger of God."</ref>
*[[Sharon Agathon]]: "When God's anger awakens, even the mighty shall fall…" ([[Torn]])
*The [[Prayer to the Cloud of Unknowing]] is used when Cylons face death without [[Resurrection (RDM)|resurrection]]: "Heavenly father<nowiki> [. . .] </nowiki>grant us the strength...the wisdom<nowiki> [. . .] </nowiki>and above all...a measure of acceptance..." ([[A Measure of Salvation]], [[Sine Qua Non]], [[Islanded In a Stream of Stars]])

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylon Religion (RDM)]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Soldiers of the One/Archive 1

2009-08-02T22:15:43Z

Sauron18: /* Infinity Symbol in Cylon Religion */

==Infinity Symbol in Cylon Religion==
When I first watched "Caprica" I noticed that it contained a connection between the Monotheistic sect we saw there and the modern Cylon religion from BSG, which was the '''''infinity symbol'''''.

In "Islanded in a Stream of Stars" we witness a Cylon funeral, and although it's not very clear at all in the actual episode the Cylons are using various amulets which contain this exact shape. I noticed only because I saw the props go up in the Ebay auction back when the episode aired, and so when I watched "Caprica" I saw it as a clear connection, but I've noticed that it hasn't been exactly commented on.

Now, it's a fairly common speculation that this cult is where the Caprican Centurion's religion came from, but the usage of the same symbol is an even greater connection, and thus it's quite deserving of a mention, I believe. The reason why I didn't mention this before is that the pages showing the props went down when the auction was over, but recently I found an archival website of all the props that were auctioned, and I present the following four links as "evidence" of the props utilized during that episode that create this stronger connection between the monotheistic religions in the show:

[http://archive.battlestarprops.com/1002/Week_8/969] [http://archive.battlestarprops.com/1002/Week_8/999] [http://archive.battlestarprops.com/1002/Week_8/939] [http://archive.battlestarprops.com/1002/Week_8/1005]

I wanted to discuss it here first, and post the links to the props, but I think it's a very interesting connection that I wish had been made more obvious in the main show and wouldn't have required a prop auction for us to notice. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:42, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

: The Infinity Symbol is part of the Cylon religion, and was introduced in late Season 4 of BSG ("Islanded," as you said). So, yes, it's worth noting. And, if you'd be so kind, it can probably find a home in the [[Cylon Religion]] article as well. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 21:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

:: Alright, I will make additions to the articles, then. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:15, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Soldiers of the One

2009-08-02T22:14:49Z

Sauron18:

[[Image:Soldiers of One Logo.jpg|thumb|"Infinity" symbol representing the Soldiers of One.]]
The '''Soldiers of the One''' are a monotheistic religious group whose singular mission is to "drive out the many [[Lords of Kobol (RDM)|Gods]]" and combat the decadence and corruption of Colonial society. The Caprican government considers them a terrorist criminal organization.

Sister [[Clarice Willow]], headmistress of the [[Athena Academy]], is apparently a leader in the group. Other members include her students [[Lacy Rand]], [[Ben Stark]], and Stark's girlfriend, [[Zoe Graystone]].

There is a branch of the organization on the planet Gemenon, with whom Graystone intended to seek refuge. She had plans to further the Soldiers of the One's mission that involved her virtual avatar in some way.

Graystone's plans are cut short by Stark's suicide bombing of the train they are on. Sister Willow refers to this as "premature" and "unauthorized". (''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'').<ref>{{cite_web|url=http://thetvaddict.com/2008/04/23/the-tv-addict-previews-battlestar-galactica-prequel-caprica/|title=The TV Addict Previews BATTLESTAR GALACTICA Prequel CAPRICA|date=23 April 2008|accessdate=24 April 2008|last=|first=|format=|language=}}</ref>

[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|More than forty years later]] the same symbol utilized by this group is seen at the hands of the [[humanoid Cylons]], being employed during a religious funereal service ([[Islanded in a Stream of Stars]]). The reappearance of the symbol may suggest a direct connection between the religion inherited by the modern Cylon nation from the [[Cylon Centurion Model 0005|Caprican Centurions]] and that espoused by the Soldiers of the One.

== References ==

<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: Colonial Religion]]
[[Category: Colonial Religion (RDM)]]
[[Category: Colonial Society]]
[[Category: Colonial Society (RDM)]]
[[Category: Organizations]]
[[Category: Caprica (series)]]
[[Category: RDM]]

Soldiers of the One

2009-08-02T22:12:39Z

Sauron18: Added comment on symbolic connection to modern Cylon religion

[[Image:Soldiers of One Logo.jpg|thumb|"Infinity" symbol representing the Soldiers of One.]]
The '''Soldiers of the One''' are a monotheistic religious group whose singular mission is to "drive out the many [[Lords of Kobol (RDM)|Gods]]" and combat the decadence and corruption of Colonial society. The Caprican government considers them a terrorist criminal organization.

Sister [[Clarice Willow]], headmistress of the [[Athena Academy]], is apparently a leader in the group. Other members include her students [[Lacy Rand]], [[Ben Stark]], and Stark's girlfriend, [[Zoe Graystone]].

There is a branch of the organization on the planet Gemenon, with whom Graystone intended to seek refuge. She had plans to further the Soldiers of the One's mission that involved her virtual avatar in some way.

Graystone's plans are cut short by Stark's suicide bombing of the train they are on. Sister Willow refers to this as "premature" and "unauthorized". (''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'').<ref>{{cite_web|url=http://thetvaddict.com/2008/04/23/the-tv-addict-previews-battlestar-galactica-prequel-caprica/|title=The TV Addict Previews BATTLESTAR GALACTICA Prequel CAPRICA|date=23 April 2008|accessdate=24 April 2008|last=|first=|format=|language=}}</ref>

[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|More than forty years later]] the same symbol utilized by this group is seen at the hands of the [[humanoid Cylons]], being employed during a religious funereal service ([[Islanded in a Stream of Stars]]). The reappearance of the symbol may suggest a direct connection between the religion inherited by modern Cylon nation from the [[Cylon Centurion Model 0005|Caprican Centurions]] and that espoused by the Soldiers of the One.

== References ==

<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: Colonial Religion]]
[[Category: Colonial Religion (RDM)]]
[[Category: Colonial Society]]
[[Category: Colonial Society (RDM)]]
[[Category: Organizations]]
[[Category: Caprica (series)]]
[[Category: RDM]]

Talk:Soldiers of the One/Archive 1

2009-08-02T19:42:01Z

Sauron18: /*Infinity Symbol in Cylon Religion*/

Talk:Resurrection tub/Archive 1

2009-07-07T06:31:35Z

Sauron18: /* Change Name */

==Change Name==
Hey, I was checking the BSG glossary at the official site [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/storysofar/glossary/page3.html], and I noticed that this is called a "Resurrection Chamber". Should we change the name? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:35, 13 September 2006 (CDT)
:I've gone ahead and proposed the move with the move tag. [[User:Matthew|Matthew]] 13:24, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

:To me, "chamber" refers to the room, while "tank" is the tub. That it's defined as "liquid-filled chamber" there sounds a bit weird. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:27, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
::The first thing I personally thought of was a tank tank (i.e. for combat). Hehe. What about "Resurrection tub"? [[User:Matthew|Matthew]] 13:29, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
::The article specifically talks about resurrection tanks/tubs, not the chamber(room). Perhaps their should be a separate article about the chamber the tanks are in... [[User:Veepz|Veepz]] 13:42, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

I know this is an old discussion, but the official website still [http://www.syfy.com/battlestar/about/index.php?sub=glossary] has this device classified as a "resurrection chamber", and although the word is commonly used to refer to a room, it can also refer to something like this: "''a compartment or enclosed space; cavity: a chamber of the heart''" (dictionary.com). I know it's not exactly important, but the information has certainly lasted and it came from a reputable-enough source. So yeah, I think we should change it. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:31, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Messengers/Archive 1

2009-04-17T01:54:19Z

Sauron18: /* Virtual Baltar doesn't work for God */

:''For discussions prior to March 14, 2007, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Virtual_beings&oldid=110913 see this revision.]''

== Major revision ==

This article was strewn with theories and [[BW:FANW|fanwankery]] that cluttered the article. With the revelations of season 3, what is known about the nature of the virtual Six and Baltar reduces the probability of earlier speculation. Recent contributions have been more of possibility that is hardly supported by aired content, and reading the article as a whole was nearly impossible. As well, the article repeated informaation already present in the episode guides or a more relevant article. I have rewritten the article to keep sole focus on the origins, motivations and behavior of the virtual beings, removing all previous irrelevant, incorrect or otherwise inappropriate content on their nature or history.

As this article deals with the virtual beings related to Cylon activity, I eliminated the text on other character visions; they are more suited for a separate article to keep topics from blending.

With major revisions like this, there is always a possibility that something significant was lost. Contributors should feel free to add in significant notes of the virtual beings, but please do not repeat every instance of the being's presence or interject speculation that is not supported with episode content. The article, in my opinion and recommendation, should focus more on what they do to the actual characters and less on their nature until the show reveals more of their origin. Again, please be careful about excessive speculation; "theories" per se are not acceptable on Battlestar Wiki. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:34, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

== Virtual Baltar Episodes ==

In the major edit, I botched the episode citation for virtual Baltar's visit to C-Six in her jail cell. One or both of the episode citations I noted are wrong. Corrections to this information are appreciated. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:54, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
:The visit is in "The Woman King". That's where the two kiss and they wonder what's going on.--[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:00, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

About this: "Neither character has revealed the presence of these images to each other or any other character as of the episode, "[[The Woman King]]" (where the virtual Baltar makes an appearance)." 
Does this mean that it is the first instance where another character (here Roslin) really wonders what one of them is doing? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

:It should say "Neither character has revealed the existence (...)." Other characters have witnessed the strange behavior, but to my memory, only Roslin has verbally wondered. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

== Baltar and his Virtual Baltar ==

Virtual Baltar has appeared to Baltar. -- [[User:LicensedLunacy|LicensedLunacy]] 16:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that Baltar seeing himself is just a unique way to convey he is thinking/ talking to himself, considering his options. [[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]]

: That might be a good way to look at it... Actually, it might be another part of his psyche he's talking to. It can be said that Virtual Six is the part of his subconscious mind, trying to deal with the fact that he's responsible for so many people's deaths in another light. But that's a topic for discussion at a [http://www.battlestarforum.com forum]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 00:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

==Virtual Leoben==
Shouldn't we add virtual Leoben? He's sort of important I'd say, and is not a part of Kara...--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:34, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

:That's a good question. I would say "yes" but that also introduces other dream-related visions such as the ones I removed. I recommend "no" as the article should limit itself to visions that are experienced by characters in real-time and not while unconscious (sleeping or otherwise). That's my opinion and is open for more scrutiny. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
:No. There is a good chance that Head-Six and Head-Baltar are somehow Cylon-related. That chance is not so great with Maelstrom Leoben, since IMHO it's more likely just a representation of her own subconscious and not in any way whatsoever related to the real Leoben (it even says so in the episode). --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:04, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
::Maybe we should add at least a note about Maelstrom Leoben and A Day in Life Carolanne, though? 12:37, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
:::I concur with Serenity. The virtuals are definitely a unexpected (and unrevealed) side-effect of Cylon technology, that much is certain. The virtual Leoben ''isn't'' a Cylon, and doesn't appear in real time. He needs a separate article (and deserves it). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:00, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
::::I've created a [[virtual Leoben]] article and updated the relevant pages where he it cited. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:00, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
::::I have to disagree that the virtual Six and Baltar are definitely, or even probably, a result of Cylon technology. Their nature is as unknown as the virtual Leoben's. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:37, 1 November 2007 (CDT)

==Cylon Tech==
Isn't this line: "Since the effect appears to occur only between Caprica-Six and Gaius Baltar, it is possible that their visions are an unknown side-effect of Cylon technology," complete specualtion? I think it should be removed, but before doing so, I thought I'd check to make sure there wasn't any concensus I wasn't aware of. If it happened with the other six members of the [[Significant Seven]] (or even a majority of them) I wouldn't have as much of a problem, but as it's only happened with Six and Baltar I think it's out of place. If anything, a more appropriate stateent would be something like it's an unkown side-effect of cylon-human intimacy.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 21:09, 3 June 2007 (CDT)
:The way you phrase is still speculation, but is more precise to what we know, and would be more appropriate. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]]
::I completely agree, and I'd rather remove it outright, but was trying to be diplomatic. I'm going to remove it completely.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 10:25, 4 June 2007 (CDT)

== Virtual Ellen? ==

How is she different from Bill's hallucination of [[Carolanne Adama]] in "[[A Day in the Life]]"? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 18:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah, it could just be a normal hallucination. This might be more, but until it is confirmed, pushing her appearance so clearly into the direction of the virtual beings is POV. I reworded the section to make it more neutral and less certain. The term "Virtual Ellen" shouldn't be used so freely and always in quotation marks. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:It depends. I have a feeling we'll see more of her in future episodes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
::Tigh could even be [[projection|projecting]] her onto Caprica Six (seems a bit the wrong way round to me :D) but that doesn't make her a being like V.Six or V.Baltar who are all mystical or whatnot. Ellen's words and actions all seem to be what Caprica said and did anyway, wheras V.Six and V.Baltar are separate entities. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:::That's definitely a possibility. Maybe doing a "hallucinations" article would suffice... which would be a bit ironic, given that this article itself came from an article on Cylon based hallucinations, if I recall correctly. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
::::You do. We used to describe hallucinations here, only to discover they were all virtual beings, and renamed the article accordingly. With Adama and Tigh hallucinating about their wives, that may not have been that good a choice (in hindsight). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 23:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::I suggest we move the "Virtual Ellen" section into the [[Ellen Tigh]] article until we have a reason to believe she is anything other than a hallucination/projection. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::I think it would be more appropriate here or in the Saul Tigh article. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

==Virtual?==

I think the fact that we've seen direct physical intervention by "Virtual" Six onscreen in [[Escape Velocity]] throws the whole "virtual" concept right out the window. Could explain the sudden disappearance of [[Shelly Godfrey]] and [[Gina]] after their respective acts, as well. One could also infer some serious intervention on the part of "Virtual" Leoben during Starbuck's "death" but that's even further speculation. Anyway, just a thought I felt was worth mentioning. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 20:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:She only interacted with Baltar. We've seen her push him into a wall or mirror before, so we know that she can force him to move in a certain way. I don't see how that makes her any less "virtual," since she exists in his mind. And Gina didn't suddenly dissapear, she blew herself up. [[User:INH|INH]] 02:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The footage clearly shows intervention ... he's held up and forced towards the marines, moving quite unnaturally. Yes, Gina blew herself up, but I'm referring to how she removed herself from ''Pegasus'' after killing Cain. I'd love some episode reference for "We've seen her push him into a wall or mirror before" so I can review it. Thanks. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 02:28, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
: Right, she's still virtual, and we don't really see whether or not Baltar's feet make it off the ground. I'm sure they did some wire work in the scene, but we don't really know what we're supposed to believe... This is where a podcast would definitely help. The only one that disappears unexpectedly is Shelly, and she could have easily flushed herself out an airlock, given how they aren't guarded. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 02:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
: While it's the most extreme seemingly physical interaction so far, this isn't really too different from what happens in ''[[w:Fight Club|Fight Club]]'' for example, and not completely impossible to do alone. While it seems that he is held in the air, it's not actually shown. Could be either. Sure, it might be more, but it's not ''that'' certain. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::IMO anything which happens while Virtual Six is visible should be considered unreliable. In other words, I think that only movements which Baltar could not plasibly make under his own power occuring while Virtual Six is not in the shot should be considered conclusive evidence of physical interaction. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 08:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::I don't at all like the implication of an invisible "Six" physically lifting Baltar, but we have to acknowledge that setting up the shot the way they did was not at all trivial, and must have been done for a reason. Whether this was intended to be dramatic (and thus, demands a literal interpretation) or comic (and thus, just a sight gag) is unclear - it's a mirthless episode, but Olmos's previous episodes have demonstrated a taste for comedy. If it we have to interpret it literally, well, that's a challenge. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
:::To counter the point, had Baltar been lifted "off the ground", we'd see a variety of shocked reactions from those who witnessed this otherworldly event. So not only do we have to gauge what we see Baltar doing, but we also have to look at the entire picture. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::I dont understand how this is in question. IIRC from the podcast for the episode..James Callis did all the movements under his own power..if the actor could do them, why is it in question the the character couldn't do them? Also from the podcast, Ron complained that the intent was not to look like he was lifted but under his own power. --[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

== Virtual > Head ==

Pretty much every official source I see (including RDM's podcast) uses the phrases "Head-Six", and "Head-Baltar" rather than "Virtual". Shouldn't we follow suit? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 20:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
:Lacks gravitas, but does seem more standard. What does RDM call them in the podcasts? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::He calls them Head-Six and Head-Baltar. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 05:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
:We can use both. And note the terminology here. But there isn't really much point in changing it throughout the wiki. I don't think it's too confusing to use both for some variety. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::We should use both. "Head" is more colloquial but also has a loose ungrammatical and perjorative nature I find weird. I see "virtual" around the fansphere just as well. For this article and throughout the wiki, "virtual" should be used but references to "head" (yes, please) should be redirects to here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Such redirects are already in place :) -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::I don't agree that we should use "Head-Six" and "Head-Baltar". Frankly, this already presupposes that these are figments of a person's imagination; virtual is more ambiguous, and has a wider-range of meanings than "head" (which is another way of saying "glorified imaginary friend". So, Ron uses it... then again, he and Eick have diluted themselves into believing that "Hero" fits snugly into continuity when we all know that isn't the case. So... time to put on those critical thinking caps. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 21:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

== Virtual Cat ==

I find it curious that [[Romo Lampkin]]'s virtual cat from [[Sine Qua Non]] isn't listed. Is this an oversight or is it deliberate? There can be no question that the cat was indeed virtual. That cat had been dead for a long enough time for Lee to question its time of death. The cat is never seen by Lee. Romo is the only one to interact with the cat, and then, only by voice.
--[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:28, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
::Because there's a difference between a virtual being and a mere hallucination. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 04:37, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
:::I havent seen this distinction in the show. No virtual being has given any character any information that they didnt already know, or could have reasonably deduced by themselves. --[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
::The Virtual Six lifted Baltar off the ground in a manner that was physically impossible for him to do on his own. There are other examples too. The virtual beings aren't mere hallucinations. The presence of extra-corporeal entities and/or spiritual powers in this show is all but spelled out in giant letters for the audience. [[User:Blue Rook|Blue Rook]] 08:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Not so. Baltar had no way of knowing that Hera would arrive or of her connection to the Opera House. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
::::How could have a cylon known about the birth of hara? And if james callis could do the moves without outside assistence, so could baltar. And havent you noticed that when Ron Moore hits you over the head with a concept, its often wrong? And this still doesn't rule out a virtual cat. --[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 07:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::What Cylon? Virtual Six isn't a Cylon. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:55, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
:: I agree that it is a virtual being (or the virtual being as it has not been disproved that they are different, and when questioned on it the subject it was deflected, possibly the Cylon God). My reasoning for this is that every encounter with one has moved the story on often with a purpose (e.g. Baltar's Six being pissed at him for comforting Gina then telling him “God will not forgive this sin”, Caprica's Baltar for telling her to find the humans and then Baltar's Six telling him it is the reckoning when the ships land on New Caprica). In this case it forced Romo to be pissed at the loss of his cat and force Lee to take up the mantle of President and help the truce to occur. [[User:Chris etd|Chris etd]] 03:27, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

== These Angels Making Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. '' {{unsigned|Walabio}}

:It is what it is, Walabio. :) For further discussion about the episode that's not relevant to the quality and content of the article's editorial content, perhaps you should redirect (and reproduce) your thoughts on the [http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=3050 talk thread] for the episode on the Battlestar Forum. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Rename to "Messengers"==
Hey guys, I was thinking, given the mention that RDM referred to them as "the messengers" in the podcast for No Exit and the fact that they are confirmed to be supernatural, without necessarily being angels or demons, that perhaps we should change the article name to more accurately reflect what they are.

"Virtual beings" has worked until now, because we didn't know if they were truly something supernatural, but since we now know they aren't, and we have a fairly decent term (from a good enough source) I think it might be fair to say that it's time to change to the more accurate term. Thoughts? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 02:10, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:: Actually, no they have not been "confirmed to be supernatural." All we know is that they are messengers of an entity that does not like to be called "God." -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 06:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:: Good idea. The term "messengers" is certainly more semi-official than "virtual beings", a term which doesn't actually make that much sense. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:29, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

== Virtual Baltar doesn't work for God ==

This paragraph is not strictly true and has been interpreted:

The two discuss the cycle of life and Virtual Baltar chides Virtual Six for calling the being they work for God, as it apparently doesn't like being called that. Virtual Baltar has the series last line, which is a response to Virtual Six's stern look: "silly me.... silly, silly me." The two then walk off together into present day New York City. 

I suggest something more general and more literal because the last scene could also be interpreted as such:

The two discuss the cycle of life and Virtual Six declares she is optimistic about the future. Upon being asked why by Virtual Baltar, she declares that its a mathematical probability and THAT is part of God's plan. To which he jokingly appears affronted, saying menacingly; "You know he doesn't like that name.", insinuating that mathematical probability is actually part of his bosses, the Devil's, plan. When she retorts by way of a look of disdain, he feigns an apology, saying; "silly me .... silly, silly me."

even though it may be fanwankery, I still believe the former paragraph is an 'interpretation' of the ending, not statement of fact. It could be re-written more generally and literally to avoid interpretation that they BOTH work for God.--
[[User:Barstuck|Barstuck]] 19:08, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
*I don't think we should change it, I think that's the most simple and basic interpretation that the scene could have. Not to mention, of course, that RDM confirmed in an interview that the scene was meant to make the audience question the nature of "the Cylon God", so they were both definitely talking about the same entity, regardless of what this is. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:57, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
** I suppose we have to expect there to be information from outside the show on the show's own wiki. But I like how wikipedia stated it. More loose - more open to the viewer's interpretation, and a satisfying factual explanation. I'll leave it at that. Thanks.--[[User:Barstuck|Barstuck]] 00:01, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't know which wikipedia article you may be referring to, but after looking over the article I realized that there are quite a few things that feel a bit....decisive, given the nature of their revelation. The main thing is that Moore specifically mentions wanting them being ambiguous beings working for an ambiguous power, yet the article doesn't necessarily reflect that, especially by referring to them as "angels" (which is, I'll admit, the only thing HS ever called herself, and what other characters called them near the end).

Still, this connects more with my point above of changing the article title (and the references to "angels" and "virtual beings") into "Messengers", which, as mentioned before, is the "most official" and honestly most accurate term that would also serve to maintain the ambiguity. The other factor affecting this would be "God", but honestly there's little we can do with that and I think that the perviously suggested change might be enough to make it, without removing the references to them being "angels" by other characters (though not forgetting their ambiguity in the text). --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 01:54, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Messengers/Archive 1

2009-04-16T19:57:27Z

Sauron18: /* Virtual Baltar doesn't work for God */

:''For discussions prior to March 14, 2007, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Virtual_beings&oldid=110913 see this revision.]''

== Major revision ==

This article was strewn with theories and [[BW:FANW|fanwankery]] that cluttered the article. With the revelations of season 3, what is known about the nature of the virtual Six and Baltar reduces the probability of earlier speculation. Recent contributions have been more of possibility that is hardly supported by aired content, and reading the article as a whole was nearly impossible. As well, the article repeated informaation already present in the episode guides or a more relevant article. I have rewritten the article to keep sole focus on the origins, motivations and behavior of the virtual beings, removing all previous irrelevant, incorrect or otherwise inappropriate content on their nature or history.

As this article deals with the virtual beings related to Cylon activity, I eliminated the text on other character visions; they are more suited for a separate article to keep topics from blending.

With major revisions like this, there is always a possibility that something significant was lost. Contributors should feel free to add in significant notes of the virtual beings, but please do not repeat every instance of the being's presence or interject speculation that is not supported with episode content. The article, in my opinion and recommendation, should focus more on what they do to the actual characters and less on their nature until the show reveals more of their origin. Again, please be careful about excessive speculation; "theories" per se are not acceptable on Battlestar Wiki. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:34, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

== Virtual Baltar Episodes ==

In the major edit, I botched the episode citation for virtual Baltar's visit to C-Six in her jail cell. One or both of the episode citations I noted are wrong. Corrections to this information are appreciated. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:54, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
:The visit is in "The Woman King". That's where the two kiss and they wonder what's going on.--[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:00, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

About this: "Neither character has revealed the presence of these images to each other or any other character as of the episode, "[[The Woman King]]" (where the virtual Baltar makes an appearance)." 
Does this mean that it is the first instance where another character (here Roslin) really wonders what one of them is doing? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

:It should say "Neither character has revealed the existence (...)." Other characters have witnessed the strange behavior, but to my memory, only Roslin has verbally wondered. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

== Baltar and his Virtual Baltar ==

Virtual Baltar has appeared to Baltar. -- [[User:LicensedLunacy|LicensedLunacy]] 16:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that Baltar seeing himself is just a unique way to convey he is thinking/ talking to himself, considering his options. [[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]]

: That might be a good way to look at it... Actually, it might be another part of his psyche he's talking to. It can be said that Virtual Six is the part of his subconscious mind, trying to deal with the fact that he's responsible for so many people's deaths in another light. But that's a topic for discussion at a [http://www.battlestarforum.com forum]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 00:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

==Virtual Leoben==
Shouldn't we add virtual Leoben? He's sort of important I'd say, and is not a part of Kara...--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:34, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

:That's a good question. I would say "yes" but that also introduces other dream-related visions such as the ones I removed. I recommend "no" as the article should limit itself to visions that are experienced by characters in real-time and not while unconscious (sleeping or otherwise). That's my opinion and is open for more scrutiny. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
:No. There is a good chance that Head-Six and Head-Baltar are somehow Cylon-related. That chance is not so great with Maelstrom Leoben, since IMHO it's more likely just a representation of her own subconscious and not in any way whatsoever related to the real Leoben (it even says so in the episode). --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:04, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
::Maybe we should add at least a note about Maelstrom Leoben and A Day in Life Carolanne, though? 12:37, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
:::I concur with Serenity. The virtuals are definitely a unexpected (and unrevealed) side-effect of Cylon technology, that much is certain. The virtual Leoben ''isn't'' a Cylon, and doesn't appear in real time. He needs a separate article (and deserves it). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:00, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
::::I've created a [[virtual Leoben]] article and updated the relevant pages where he it cited. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:00, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
::::I have to disagree that the virtual Six and Baltar are definitely, or even probably, a result of Cylon technology. Their nature is as unknown as the virtual Leoben's. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:37, 1 November 2007 (CDT)

==Cylon Tech==
Isn't this line: "Since the effect appears to occur only between Caprica-Six and Gaius Baltar, it is possible that their visions are an unknown side-effect of Cylon technology," complete specualtion? I think it should be removed, but before doing so, I thought I'd check to make sure there wasn't any concensus I wasn't aware of. If it happened with the other six members of the [[Significant Seven]] (or even a majority of them) I wouldn't have as much of a problem, but as it's only happened with Six and Baltar I think it's out of place. If anything, a more appropriate stateent would be something like it's an unkown side-effect of cylon-human intimacy.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 21:09, 3 June 2007 (CDT)
:The way you phrase is still speculation, but is more precise to what we know, and would be more appropriate. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]]
::I completely agree, and I'd rather remove it outright, but was trying to be diplomatic. I'm going to remove it completely.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 10:25, 4 June 2007 (CDT)

== Virtual Ellen? ==

How is she different from Bill's hallucination of [[Carolanne Adama]] in "[[A Day in the Life]]"? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 18:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah, it could just be a normal hallucination. This might be more, but until it is confirmed, pushing her appearance so clearly into the direction of the virtual beings is POV. I reworded the section to make it more neutral and less certain. The term "Virtual Ellen" shouldn't be used so freely and always in quotation marks. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:It depends. I have a feeling we'll see more of her in future episodes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
::Tigh could even be [[projection|projecting]] her onto Caprica Six (seems a bit the wrong way round to me :D) but that doesn't make her a being like V.Six or V.Baltar who are all mystical or whatnot. Ellen's words and actions all seem to be what Caprica said and did anyway, wheras V.Six and V.Baltar are separate entities. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:::That's definitely a possibility. Maybe doing a "hallucinations" article would suffice... which would be a bit ironic, given that this article itself came from an article on Cylon based hallucinations, if I recall correctly. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
::::You do. We used to describe hallucinations here, only to discover they were all virtual beings, and renamed the article accordingly. With Adama and Tigh hallucinating about their wives, that may not have been that good a choice (in hindsight). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 23:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::I suggest we move the "Virtual Ellen" section into the [[Ellen Tigh]] article until we have a reason to believe she is anything other than a hallucination/projection. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::I think it would be more appropriate here or in the Saul Tigh article. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

==Virtual?==

I think the fact that we've seen direct physical intervention by "Virtual" Six onscreen in [[Escape Velocity]] throws the whole "virtual" concept right out the window. Could explain the sudden disappearance of [[Shelly Godfrey]] and [[Gina]] after their respective acts, as well. One could also infer some serious intervention on the part of "Virtual" Leoben during Starbuck's "death" but that's even further speculation. Anyway, just a thought I felt was worth mentioning. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 20:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
:She only interacted with Baltar. We've seen her push him into a wall or mirror before, so we know that she can force him to move in a certain way. I don't see how that makes her any less "virtual," since she exists in his mind. And Gina didn't suddenly dissapear, she blew herself up. [[User:INH|INH]] 02:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The footage clearly shows intervention ... he's held up and forced towards the marines, moving quite unnaturally. Yes, Gina blew herself up, but I'm referring to how she removed herself from ''Pegasus'' after killing Cain. I'd love some episode reference for "We've seen her push him into a wall or mirror before" so I can review it. Thanks. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 02:28, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
: Right, she's still virtual, and we don't really see whether or not Baltar's feet make it off the ground. I'm sure they did some wire work in the scene, but we don't really know what we're supposed to believe... This is where a podcast would definitely help. The only one that disappears unexpectedly is Shelly, and she could have easily flushed herself out an airlock, given how they aren't guarded. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 02:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
: While it's the most extreme seemingly physical interaction so far, this isn't really too different from what happens in ''[[w:Fight Club|Fight Club]]'' for example, and not completely impossible to do alone. While it seems that he is held in the air, it's not actually shown. Could be either. Sure, it might be more, but it's not ''that'' certain. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::IMO anything which happens while Virtual Six is visible should be considered unreliable. In other words, I think that only movements which Baltar could not plasibly make under his own power occuring while Virtual Six is not in the shot should be considered conclusive evidence of physical interaction. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 08:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::I don't at all like the implication of an invisible "Six" physically lifting Baltar, but we have to acknowledge that setting up the shot the way they did was not at all trivial, and must have been done for a reason. Whether this was intended to be dramatic (and thus, demands a literal interpretation) or comic (and thus, just a sight gag) is unclear - it's a mirthless episode, but Olmos's previous episodes have demonstrated a taste for comedy. If it we have to interpret it literally, well, that's a challenge. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
:::To counter the point, had Baltar been lifted "off the ground", we'd see a variety of shocked reactions from those who witnessed this otherworldly event. So not only do we have to gauge what we see Baltar doing, but we also have to look at the entire picture. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::I dont understand how this is in question. IIRC from the podcast for the episode..James Callis did all the movements under his own power..if the actor could do them, why is it in question the the character couldn't do them? Also from the podcast, Ron complained that the intent was not to look like he was lifted but under his own power. --[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

== Virtual > Head ==

Pretty much every official source I see (including RDM's podcast) uses the phrases "Head-Six", and "Head-Baltar" rather than "Virtual". Shouldn't we follow suit? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 20:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
:Lacks gravitas, but does seem more standard. What does RDM call them in the podcasts? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::He calls them Head-Six and Head-Baltar. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 05:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
:We can use both. And note the terminology here. But there isn't really much point in changing it throughout the wiki. I don't think it's too confusing to use both for some variety. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::We should use both. "Head" is more colloquial but also has a loose ungrammatical and perjorative nature I find weird. I see "virtual" around the fansphere just as well. For this article and throughout the wiki, "virtual" should be used but references to "head" (yes, please) should be redirects to here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Such redirects are already in place :) -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::I don't agree that we should use "Head-Six" and "Head-Baltar". Frankly, this already presupposes that these are figments of a person's imagination; virtual is more ambiguous, and has a wider-range of meanings than "head" (which is another way of saying "glorified imaginary friend". So, Ron uses it... then again, he and Eick have diluted themselves into believing that "Hero" fits snugly into continuity when we all know that isn't the case. So... time to put on those critical thinking caps. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 21:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

== Virtual Cat ==

I find it curious that [[Romo Lampkin]]'s virtual cat from [[Sine Qua Non]] isn't listed. Is this an oversight or is it deliberate? There can be no question that the cat was indeed virtual. That cat had been dead for a long enough time for Lee to question its time of death. The cat is never seen by Lee. Romo is the only one to interact with the cat, and then, only by voice.
--[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:28, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
::Because there's a difference between a virtual being and a mere hallucination. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 04:37, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
:::I havent seen this distinction in the show. No virtual being has given any character any information that they didnt already know, or could have reasonably deduced by themselves. --[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
::The Virtual Six lifted Baltar off the ground in a manner that was physically impossible for him to do on his own. There are other examples too. The virtual beings aren't mere hallucinations. The presence of extra-corporeal entities and/or spiritual powers in this show is all but spelled out in giant letters for the audience. [[User:Blue Rook|Blue Rook]] 08:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Not so. Baltar had no way of knowing that Hera would arrive or of her connection to the Opera House. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
::::How could have a cylon known about the birth of hara? And if james callis could do the moves without outside assistence, so could baltar. And havent you noticed that when Ron Moore hits you over the head with a concept, its often wrong? And this still doesn't rule out a virtual cat. --[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 07:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::What Cylon? Virtual Six isn't a Cylon. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:55, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
:: I agree that it is a virtual being (or the virtual being as it has not been disproved that they are different, and when questioned on it the subject it was deflected, possibly the Cylon God). My reasoning for this is that every encounter with one has moved the story on often with a purpose (e.g. Baltar's Six being pissed at him for comforting Gina then telling him “God will not forgive this sin”, Caprica's Baltar for telling her to find the humans and then Baltar's Six telling him it is the reckoning when the ships land on New Caprica). In this case it forced Romo to be pissed at the loss of his cat and force Lee to take up the mantle of President and help the truce to occur. [[User:Chris etd|Chris etd]] 03:27, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

== These Angels Making Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. '' {{unsigned|Walabio}}

:It is what it is, Walabio. :) For further discussion about the episode that's not relevant to the quality and content of the article's editorial content, perhaps you should redirect (and reproduce) your thoughts on the [http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=3050 talk thread] for the episode on the Battlestar Forum. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Rename to "Messengers"==
Hey guys, I was thinking, given the mention that RDM referred to them as "the messengers" in the podcast for No Exit and the fact that they are confirmed to be supernatural, without necessarily being angels or demons, that perhaps we should change the article name to more accurately reflect what they are.

"Virtual beings" has worked until now, because we didn't know if they were truly something supernatural, but since we now know they aren't, and we have a fairly decent term (from a good enough source) I think it might be fair to say that it's time to change to the more accurate term. Thoughts? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 02:10, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:: Actually, no they have not been "confirmed to be supernatural." All we know is that they are messengers of an entity that does not like to be called "God." -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 06:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:: Good idea. The term "messengers" is certainly more semi-official than "virtual beings", a term which doesn't actually make that much sense. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:29, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

== Virtual Baltar doesn't work for God ==

This paragraph is not strictly true and has been interpreted:

The two discuss the cycle of life and Virtual Baltar chides Virtual Six for calling the being they work for God, as it apparently doesn't like being called that. Virtual Baltar has the series last line, which is a response to Virtual Six's stern look: "silly me.... silly, silly me." The two then walk off together into present day New York City. 

I suggest something more general and more literal because the last scene could also be interpreted as such:

The two discuss the cycle of life and Virtual Six declares she is optimistic about the future. Upon being asked why by Virtual Baltar, she declares that its a mathematical probability and THAT is part of God's plan. To which he jokingly appears affronted, saying menacingly; "You know he doesn't like that name.", insinuating that mathematical probability is actually part of his bosses, the Devil's, plan. When she retorts by way of a look of disdain, he feigns an apology, saying; "silly me .... silly, silly me."

even though it may be fanwankery, I still believe the former paragraph is an 'interpretation' of the ending, not statement of fact. It could be re-written more generally and literally to avoid interpretation that they BOTH work for God.
[[User:Barstuck|Barstuck]] 19:08, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
*I don't think we should change it, I think that's the most simple and basic interpretation that the scene could have. Not to mention, of course, that RDM confirmed in an interview that the scene was meant to make the audience question the nature of "the Cylon God", so they were both definitely talking about the same entity, regardless of what this is. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:57, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Messengers/Archive 1

2009-04-14T02:10:02Z

Sauron18: /*Rename to "Messengers"*/

Talk:Battlestar Galactica: The Final Five 1/Archive 1

2009-03-26T21:57:56Z

Sauron18: /* Canonicity */

==Canonicity==
One of the questions regarding this comic book, which was written in collaboration with one of the show's writers after they had finished writing 4.5 (and will thus try to expand on certain things that were introduced), is whether or not it should be considered canonical or as "separate continuity" (as it is right now) like the other comic books (which clearly diverged in many cases).

It's also been referred to by Jane Espenson as showing the backstory of the Final Five in greater depth (meaning at least she also considers it canonical):

'''Jane:''' ''"The dates and sequence of the events surrounded Pythia and Kobol are going to be explored, I understand, in a comic book being written by Seamus Kevin Fahey [who is a "Battlestar" writer] and David Reed."'' [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html]

Recently I also looked into another interview, where the following was said:

''"Of course, if ever a show has proven that story can stretch far beyond the actual series screentime, it’s “Battlestar Galactica.” Aside from a raft of webisodes, a planned prequel series, the “Razor” movie, dozens of comics have been published over the last five years, '''and March’s “The Final Five” miniseries will serve as an official piece of the show’s canon'''."'' [http://www.comicbookresources.com/?id=19588&page=article]

This wasn't shown to be said by someone from the show, and it could just be the article writer's own choice of words but that is only the least bit of backup, when considering the rest.

Although it will be separate from the television series I think the writers of the show consider this comic to have the details of certain things they only delved into recently. I think it makes sense that they'd use a medium like this to further some things that weren't explained in great detail and the fact that one writer from the show is making it and at least a second one considers it canonical (and "uses" it to answer questions) means it's very different from all the other comics made before.

This is why I believe we should consider the comic series within the television show's canon, seeing as how it comes from the writers and is considered by some (if not all) of them to be canonical and an official explanation/depiction of some of the show's backstory.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 21:53, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Battlestar Galactica: The Final Five 1/Archive 1

2009-03-26T21:53:18Z

Sauron18: /*Canonicity*/

==Canonicity==
One of the questions regarding this comic book, which was written by some of the show's writers after they had finished writing 4.5 (and will thus try to expand on certain things that were introduced), is whether or not it should be considered canonical or as "separate continuity" (as it is right now) like the other comic books (which clearly diverged in many cases).

The more I look into it the more I believe that we should consider it canonical. It's a comic book, but not only will it stick to the canon, but it is also written by some of the show's writers. That aside, it's also been referred to by Jane Espenson as showing the backstory of the Final Five in greater depth (meaning at least she also considers it canonical):

'''Jane:''' ''"The dates and sequence of the events surrounded Pythia and Kobol are going to be explored, I understand, in a comic book being written by Seamus Kevin Fahey [who is a "Battlestar" writer] and David Reed."'' [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html]

Recently I also looked into another interview, where the following was said:

''"Of course, if ever a show has proven that story can stretch far beyond the actual series screentime, it’s “Battlestar Galactica.” Aside from a raft of webisodes, a planned prequel series, the “Razor” movie, dozens of comics have been published over the last five years, '''and March’s “The Final Five” miniseries will serve as an official piece of the show’s canon'''."'' [http://www.comicbookresources.com/?id=19588&page=article]

This wasn't said by anyone official, and it could just be the article writer's own choice of words but that is only the least bit of backup, when considering the rest.

Although it will be separate from the television series I think the writers of the show consider this comic to have the details of certain things they only delved into recently. I think it makes sense that they'd use a medium like this to further some things that weren't explained in great detail and the fact that 2 writers from the show are making it and at least a third one considers it canonical means it's very different from all the other comics made before.

This is why I believe we should consider the comic series within the television show's canon, seeing as how it comes from the writers and is considered by some (if not all) of them to be canonical and an official explanation/depiction of some of the show's backstory.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 21:53, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques

2009-03-24T14:50:58Z

Sauron18: /*Thirteenth Tribe "Cylons"/Biotechnology*/

{{project|Official Communique's|image=BSG WIKI Official CrewCast.png|shortcut=BW:OC}}

Members of '''''Battlestar Wiki''''': This page is to coordinate all questions to any official members of the cast or crew of "[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]." Please sign your question after you are done. The "summary" of the question should be be first, if any, and then the questions, in short form, should be placed at the bottom. This is to not confuse people and to keep the questions distinctive.

Cast/Crew: These are questions we are seeking answers to. If you have the time, please answer them as best you can. We will move these questions/answers to the correct page once they have been done. You can also check out ''[[:md:Category:Seeking Official Information|Category:Seeking Official Information]]'' for larger items - particularly pictures.

All questions which have been previously answered can be found on the archive pages. Questions get moved to the archives once items and questions stemming from the issue have stopped.

<div align="center">
{| class="toc plainlinks" summary="Notice"
|-
| [[Image:BSG WIKI Caution.png]]
| [[Bradley Thompson]] is very busy. It might be a while before he answers questions.
|}
</div>

{{ArchiveTOC}}

{{Newsection link}}

__TOC__

==Cybernetic Living Organism==
Hello, Mr. Thompson, we wanted to ask you a question regarding the meaning of the word "Cylon".

When we began getting reports and such about the proposed spin-off "Caprica", amongst them was the news that we would learn what the word "Cylon" meant by the end of the pilot. Amongst this information we got a partial name, and then later on more was revealed: "Cybernetic Living Organism". However, we do not know if it is truly the one you, the writers, intend to use, or if it was just a rumor. Is "Cybernetic Living Organism" the canonical origin behind the word "Cylon", or was this just a rumor/old version?

Thank you for your time. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:02, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
:The Battlestar Concordance from the original series doesn't document the etymology. Ron D. Moore's "Caprica," has a character coin the term, saying, "A cybernetic life-form node, a Cylon." But as "Caprica" has yet to go before cameras, there is yet no "official" version. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 13:39, 20 September 2007 (CDT)
::Thanks Bradley. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 03:04, 21 September 2007 (CDT)
:::Indeed, thank you! --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:47, 4 October 2007 (CDT)

== Season 4 Episode Titles ==

Hello Mr. Thompson,

could you please confirm and maybe add (for us) unknown S4 episode titles, like you did with S3 episodes? So far we know about:

*4.01 - [[He That Believeth In Me]]
*4.02 - [[Six of One]]
*4.03 - [[The Ties That Bind]]
*4.04 - [[Escape Velocity]]
*4.05 - Into the West
*4.06 - [[Faith]]
*4.08 - [[Sine Qua Non]]
*4.10 - [[Revelations]]

That leaves 4.07 and 4.09 unknown. Thank you for an answer. --[[User:Deus|Deus]] 12:18, 17 November 2007 (CST)
:Additionally, can you confirm that these 10 episodes have been produced, that the 10th ("Revelations") is the mid-season cliffhanger and that the one after that is the episode Ronald Moore was supposed to direct? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 12:45, 17 November 2007 (CST)

::If there's a title called "Into the West," it's news to me. The series has put thirteen episodes into the can -- that counts "Razor" as episodes #1 & 2 of the fourth order. Can't really call it all a fourth season, because SciFi could air it as two seasons or just one. The numbering we use in-house starts with 4.01 & 4.02 as "Razor." Season 4 Starts with Episode 3, "He That Believeth In Me." The titles you have are otherwise correct, though the Confidentiality Agreement in our contracts keeps me from filling in the gaps. This season's episodes contain so many spoilers that script distribution has been severely curtailed and diabolical measures have been enacted to catch and chastise leakers. Crucifixion, line on the left, one cross each. (Thank you Monty Python) [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 02:00, 30 November 2007 (CST)
:::So you can't fill in the gaps, but you can tell us which titles are correct? That's a weird contract... --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 06:08, 30 November 2007 (CST)
::::Well, we appreciate whatever help you can provide. Thanks for the info on the episode title and the episode numbering! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:20, 30 November 2007 (CST)
:::::Stay safe on the picket lines! Any picks of you holding a picket? :P [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:40, 30 November 2007 (CST)
:So we can delete the "yet unconfirmed" comments on the episode pages I guess. Question is, do we cite and how? Maybe a link to this post instead of the GoBetween pictures? But those need to be updated when this page is archived. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:28, 30 November 2007 (CST)
::Linking here is fine I guess. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 06:31, 30 November 2007 (CST)

:::::4.05 (your number system) is entitled "Guess What's Coming to Dinner"
:::::4.09 (your number system) is "The Hub"
:::::You have the rest correct.

::Michael Nankin directed the episode that follows Revelations. Ron will write and direct the one after that -- the first one to be shot after the strike.

Hey, Steelviper - the "Warrior Poets" photo was pretty cool. There may be a photo of us on the lines, but I'll have to check my other computer. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 20:14, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:Thanks, Brad. Would you happen to know the title for 4.07 (the episode between [[Faith]] and [[Sine Qua Non]]) as well? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 05:44, 22 February 2008 (CST)

::Our Season 4 Production List is:
:::401-402 Razor
:::403 He That Believeth in Me
:::404 Six of One
:::405 Ties That Bind
:::406 Escape Velocity
:::407 The Road Less Travelled
:::408 Faith
:::409 Guess What's Coming to Dinner
:::410 Sine Qua Non
:::411 The Hub
:::412 Revelations

- [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 19:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)

== Minor questions about [[Jaycie McGavin]] ==

Hi Bradley, just two minor questions on [[Jaycie McGavin]] that maybe you can answer. One, is her callsign "Goldbrick", and two, did she live or die after [[Operation Raptor Talon]] in the "[[Razor Flashbacks]]"? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki — ''New''] 12:19, 15 December 2007 (CST)

::The script never defines Lt. McGavin's call sign. As to living or dying... depends upon your time reference: By the end of the miniseries, nearly everybody in the Twelve Colonies is dead. But as yet, we've not referred to her since they carried her, still living, to sickbay, so you can make up your own story. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 20:09, 25 February 2008 (CST)

== [[Adrien Bauer]]'s actor ==

Hello there, just a question about a character mentioned in "[[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]": is there any particular reason why a photograph of [[Graeme Duffy]] was chosen to portray [[Adrien Bauer]] or no? [[User:DrWho42|DrWho42]] 20:52, 25 February 2008 (CST)

== New Episode Titles ==

koenigrules as reported the following episode titles: 
:11 - Sometimes a Great Nation
:12 - The Disquiet That Follows My Soul
:13 - The Oath
:14 - Blood on the Scales
:15 - No Exit
Are they correct? -- [[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 14:42, 9 March 2008 (CDT)

:That's also mentioned on [http://www.bsg.cz www.bsg.cz], but since I can't read czech I don't know their source. 11, 12 and 14 are pretty awesome titles, btw. BSG's titles are sometimes a bit generic, but these are pretty poetic. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:01, 9 March 2008 (CDT)
::For clarity, these would be 411-415 in our numbering scheme, with production numbers 413-417. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 15:36, 9 March 2008 (CDT)
::Serenity: Our source is same as yours, koenigrules. We say they are unconfirmed and to be considered just as rumor. BTW we'll start with english news (at least we'll try) in few weeks with new design.--[[User:Deus|Deus]] 01:36, 10 March 2008 (CDT)
:::That's good. :) It's one of the best BSG news sites IMO (I usually check the links to get the the original source), but not having it in English is a real waste and limits the audience unnecessarily. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:00, 10 March 2008 (CDT)

== Tigh and the Cylon detector... and Baltar's Cult ==

Hi Brad. Having watched "[[He That Believeth In Me]]", I had a nagging question regarding Baltar's Cylon detector. Was Saul Tigh ever tested? The reason I ask is because there's a scene near the end of act 1 where Tigh comments that the detector failed to ID Boomer, then he stares off into the camera for no less than 10 seconds... as if he has something to add, but thinks the better of it... or wants someone to pick up on an unasked question. My inference from watching the episode was that Tigh was tested as well, but it's not concrete, so I'm looking for some confirmation either way on that fact.

Further, Baltar's cult really strikes mas being inspired by the Manson Family and other religious/counter-cultural cults. What were the inspirations for Baltar's cult? Further, I have the feeling that [[My Triumphs, My Mistakes|his book]] has much to do with how the cult started. Is that the cult's "holy text"? Thanks Brad! :D -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

::Patience, oh my brother... {{unsigned|Ngarenn}}

== [[Samuel Anders]] Callsign + Highschool ==

Now we know there was no call name given to Mr. Anders in our newest episode, however, if you can disclose on what it is, that would be great. :) Also, is "[[Noyce Elementary School]]" the correct spelling of the high school name. Cheers on such a great premiere episode! [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 17:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

::We have it as Noyse in the teleplay. [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 02:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Ngarenn, it appears that Sam actually was given the callsign "Longshot". Could you please confirm or deny this? Thanks. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

::Confirmed. He got his call sign in "He That Believeth In Me" So did Diana "Hardball" Seelix. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 15:23, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Thank you very much. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
:::There was just some confusion with the dialogue a bit ambiguous. It can also be interpreted that he is addressing a pilot called Longshot :) -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 20:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

In that fight, he was confused. Wireless protocol is very specific for a reason. You call out your addressee first, then say who you are and what you want - eg. "Galactica, Hardball - request vectors to Majahual" Which tells our guys aboard Galactica that Hardball needs directions to the mining ship. -- [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 03:00, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

==Brothers and sisters==
The current [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)]] article assumes that brothers and sisters are distinct from priests and priestesses, and are the equivalent of monks or lay clergy. However, according to the casting info on [[Clarice Willow]] from ''Caprica'', she is both a Sister and High Priestess. Does it mean that "Brother" and "Sister" are just honorifics for priests and priestesses? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 19:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

While they are distinct, the honorific can be Sister and Brother, just as the clergy is free to address their flock by those terms. -- [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 03:02, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

==Quorum of Twelve==
Which colonies do [[Reza Chronides]] and the unnamed delegate played by [[Iris Paluly]] represent? (or the [[Unnamed civilians in the Fleet (RDM)#Other delegates|other, uncredited delegates]] for that matter) [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 10:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

==Centurions - retcon or later version?==
Should we assume that the redesigned Centurions from "Razor" are what the First War Centurions always looked, or are the TOS Cylon replicas (more human-looking, with mechanical joints hidden in black tubes, flexible armor "skirts" and swords) from the museum and Armistice Officer's specification perhaps an earlier model, while the "Razor" ones are a later model used during the late stages of the war and by the Guardians (perhaps 0006)? The Razor ones look like something in the middle between the TOS Centurions and the modern ones. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 11:47, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

:: As with any military design, Centurions are constantly modified as improvements are released for field use and/or mission profiles dictate. Often these changes are not visible -- software patches, greater ammunitions storiage, longer lasting servos an power supplies, better sensors, faster target recognition packages... -[[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 15:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

== Fleet Population ==

In "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]" we get a glimpse of the chalkboard where Roslin and Baltar's votes are being counted ship by ship. It's from this that we've deduced the names of most of the ships in the Fleet, and the idea that you have a list of ships with which to work with.

We were wondering to what extent we could consider the populations of the ships indicated (deduced roughly from adding up Baltar's and Roslin's figures) to be accurate, are these figures part of a writer's handbook/[[Series Bible]]-like document?

Many thanks,
[[User:OTW|OTW]] 10:23, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

: I wouldn't go by the chalkboard on ''Galactica'' in LDYB II, simply because the numbers of voters (broken down by ship) do not add up with the overall totals at the top two boxes. (Yeah, I tried to do what you did, but decided that it wasn't worth it.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:03, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Fleet population was always in flux, and the only people who really knew what was going on were the editors, who had to come up with the xx,xxx survivors super on every show. Trust them. We did. -- [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 03:05, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

== "Guess What's Coming To Dinner" a two-parter? ==

Hi Bradley, thanks for taking the time to answer our questions and for clarifying the "Longshot" issue! :D My question is this... Has "Guess What's Coming to Dinner" been split into a two-parter. According to both IMDb and [http://www.hulu.com/battlestar-galactica Hulu], the episode is a two parter. However, on the official SciFi.com website, they say the next episode is "[[Sine Qua Non]]". Obviously, a bit of a contradiction here... Any insights from your end would be much appreciated! Thank you again! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 01:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

== Middle names ==

A quick question about the middle names of some of the characters, notably Samuel T. Anders and Karl C. Agathon: Has the production team determined the full middle names of these characters, or is this another small mystery in the saga of ''Battlestar Galactica''? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

== Total number of ships in the fleet from start to finish ==

Just wondering if u would know the total number of vessels in the fleet cause I keep getting anything from 68 to 70 (that's if I add ''Caprica Clipper'', the Pan Galactic liner and ''Gemini'', the Gemini Freights heavy freighter).

so tell me what number of ships there are from '''33''' to current ('''revelations''').

Also what became of ''Daru Mozu'', is it destroyed or is it still in the fleet. And how about Coronis, Tauranian Traveller, Rising Star, Majahual, Scorpia Traveller, Virgon Express, McConnell, Baah Pakal and Freighter 212. --[[User:CoreyDanian|Lt. Corey "Shadow" Danian]] October 23 2008 2.24 CST

: It is really difficult to pin down just how many ships were in the fleet at any given point in time, despite the fact that the production staff has a master list of names, but that some of these names were not apparently used. There are also serious discrepancy issues which are bound to skew results. For instance, the [[:Image:tally chalkboard.jpg|voting tally chalkboard]] on ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' during "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]" lists ships that the whiteboard on ''[[Colonial One]]'' during that same episode does not list, and vice versa.

: It also doesn't help that the numbers of ships that survived were retconned from the Miniseries to "33" and onward.

: So, is there an exact number? No. Will there ever be one?

: Nope. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:59, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

== Quorum Delegate==
Is the "[[Unnamed civilians in the Fleet (RDM)|Quorum Delegate]]" (played by [[Veena Sood]]) representing three different colonies in three different episodes (first temporarily replacing [[Reza Chronides]], then the Tauron Delegate, then the Gemenon Delegate) a continuity error? Or is there a canon explanation for this? (Perhaps her being an official stand-in that votes in the name of any colony whose delegate can't be present at a session)? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 02:34, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

: There is no order for less-important delegates in the show. It's a continuity error. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 02:40, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
::It might have been an error originally, but it doesn't mean it can't be retconned. :) In the Battlestar Forum someone said that it's actually common for an absentee member to be replaced by a sit-in that they select to vote on their behalf. Maybe Veena Sood's delegate is someone trusted enough by delegates from three different colonies to be selected by them as a sit-in? After all, politics is a family tradition for her (the same actress plays an important politician in ''Caprica''). :) |
::And the composition of the quorum has actually been pretty consistent across all the episodes the current quorum appears in, aside from her. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 02:45, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

== Cylon Civil War ==

During the Cylon Civil War, the faction that allies with the Humans are called the Rebels and consisted of the Twos, Sixs and Eights. Were these models the only remaining number of their lines, or were there others still fighting Cavil's faction? [[User:Volostheguardian|Volostheguardian]] 16:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Thirteenth Tribe "Cylons"==
This wasn't made too clear in the series, and although we know the term "Cylon" is given to the beings created in "Caprica", I was wondering if the Cylons who came before that, the entire thirteenth tribe and the Kobolian Centurions, also had that name? Thank you.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:50, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

==Biotechnology==
Another thing that is implied but not really understood too well is the source of organic/biotechnology the Cylons posses. It's rather significant, and we especially see it in the design of the Colony, which RDM said was grown/built around the Final Five's original ship, so does that mean that this technology (and all it's derivatives) came from the Thirteenth Tribe in Earth? Or did it come from even farther back, from Kobol maybe? Thank you. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:50, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:No Exit/Archive 1

2009-02-18T21:48:27Z

Sauron18: /* Kobol comic */ "The Final Five"

==Call Sheet==

Can anyone please sharpen the image of the sheet and put the contents here? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

: Well, to me the picture looks like it has been deliberately modified to be unreadable, as only the set details are blurry. [[User:Raziel Anarki|Raziel Anarki]] 17:30, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

==Ellen's resurrection==
How can Ellen download without resurrection technology? Does that mean that Ellen is not in the womb of Caprica 6? (Or does Caprica 6 and/or child die forcing resurrection?) Which basestar has she resurrected on?
[[User:Seven of Nine|Seven of Nine]] 12:25, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:Ellen died and resurrected at the time of the exodus from New Caprica, months before the destruction of the Resurrection Hub. Don't forget, they do flashbacks that follow the events that happened since, such as the algae planet. -- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 10:34, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

==Plot hole==
Found a major plot hole regarding the Journey of the Five. Anders states that they traveled at near-light speed from Earth to the Colonies, resulting in a time dilation effect. Time passed slower aboard the ship than it did in real space. Since Earth was nuked 2000 years ago, then that means 2000 years passed in real space while a considerably shorter amount of time passed aboard the Five's space ship. We don't know the exact amount of time that passed aboard the ship, but it is safe to assume that it would have been considerably less than 2000 years. The question becomes: how far does the ship travel? If the time dilation effect results in 2000 years passing in real space, then the Five space ship must have traveled at most only a few light years to reach the colonies. If, for example, only 5 years pass aboard the Five ship and they are traveling close to light speed, then they can only travel a bit less than 5 light years to reach their destination. Which means the Colonies and Earth are *much* closer to each other than the series has let on. Even given a roundabout journey by the RTFF, the distance to the Algae Planet alone would have to be very close in order for the Five to stop and plant clues there, to say nothing of the virus probe or the possibility that the Five built the Star Map on Kobol as well.

[[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 08:26, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
:The ship you mentioned could be sent on its journey years before the Earth's nuclear holocaust. We could even see Allen telling her husband he would be resurrected in one flashback of the holocaust. So this Final Five resurrection ship was quite obviously already on its way to the 12 colonies by the time of the holocaust. A Problem may it be that we have no idea how the final five back on Earth have ever come to acknowledge the existence of Cylons made by the twelve tribes or rather the fact that by the time they are actually going to be constructed by the twelve tribes. -- [[User:FNj|FNj]] 14:28, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

:Are you certain you have the right reference frame? It seems to me that if 2000 years passed outside of a ship traveling close to c, then it would have traveled a significantly high fraction of 2000 light years. If we could launch a ship to Alpha Centauri at 99% of c, then those of us on Earth would see it arrive in around 5 years (leaving aside time for acceleration/deceleration), not 100, 1000, or 2000 years. However, anyone on board might only experience a few months. -- [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 16:39, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I ran the problem past a physicist and this is what I got:

The ship from Earth, travelling at near-light speed, takes 2000 years to travel to the Colonies. Anders says they resurrected onto a ship that they built in orbit of Earth, implying that it was still in orbit at the time of the Earth holocaust. Even if the ship had a head start, it would only be a few light years from Earth when the holocaust took place, given that the resurrection project would have to have been completed and installed aboard the ship before it left, and the Five all worked on the project.

At .99 c, approximately 250 years would pass aboard the Five's ship, while 2000 years would pass in real time. Given the fact that they had resurrection technology, it's easily possible for the Five to survive the trip.

The continuity problem is that Galactica's journey to Earth is incredibly roundabout, even given a detour to Kobol. It's 13 000 light years from the Algae planet to the Ionian Nebula, while Kobol is only 4000 light years from the same place. (It took light from the first supernova 4000 years to reach Kobol.) Given the other stops Galactica took along the way, they were almost going around in a huge circle (like going from Los Angeles to New York by way of Argentina).

[[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 19:08, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Seems to me that since we don't know the distances involved, the speed at which the ship was travelling, or the relative positions of the star systems in question it is useless to speculate on this point. For instance, how do you know they didn't run into the Colony Cylons part way there (and jumped with them the rest of the way to 12C)?

==Nature of the Cylons==

Seems significant to me that the Cylons seem to follow similar patterns on Earth as well as the 12 Colonies. Did mech Cylons occur on Kobol? Also, what became of the Eath mech Centurians? Wouldn't they set out to hunt down the Colonists? What of any survivors from the hybrid basestar in Razor?

I also wonder about Cavil. Why did he react so strongly to the removal of the telencephalic inhibitors from the Centurians? I would assume that he would feel affinity for them being that he desires to be mechanical in nature.

Speaking of the Centurians.... just what do THEY think of all this? I hope the writers have addressed some of these points!

==Cavil and the Lords of Kobol==

In the analysis of the episode we should consider adding something mentioning the parallel between Cavil/Ellen's sexual relationship with the kinds of relationships that the Lords of the Kobol had among themselves (mainly Zeus and Hera who were brother and sister '''AND''' husband and wife. This also counts for Saul/Caprica Six and Tyrol/Boomer. There is an interesting irony in how Cavil (an atheist) and Ellen (a monotheist) manage to mirror the behavior of polytheistic deities that they have both rejected. [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 05:41, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

:Maybe they actually ARE the Lords. That would clear it up a lot. We shall see anyway. [[User:FNj|FNj]] 16:31, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

==Broke down the Questions==
There were so many questions in the article that I decided to categorize them all to make the section more organized. -- [[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 20:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

==Centaurans?==
Ellen and Cavil talk about "Centaurans". I'm not sure if this refers to the [[Thirteenth Tribe (RDM)|Thirteenth Tribe]] or the [[Cylon Centurion|Centurion]]s, and the podcast doesn't clarify it. Does anyone have a source which can clarify this? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 06:06, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
::Not Centaurans, Centurions. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 06:39, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

==Saul's war veteran story a forgery==
Episode page says "Saul Tigh's military history in the First Cylon War is revealed to be a fabrication". I seem to have missed that hint. Where was it? [[User:Keragez|Keragez]] 16:28, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
:Sam said that Saul was introduced into Colonial space (where he met Adama on that freighter from the "Scattered" flashbacks) with fake memories a few years after the war. This is corroborated by the Mottesheard and Espenson interview. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:32, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

==Dealino?==
Who is Dealino (in the cast list)? I don't recall such character. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 19:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

==Kobol comic==
In the Chicago Tribune interview, Jane Espenson says: "Jane: The dates and sequence of the events surrounded Pythia and Kobol are going to be explored, I understand, in a comic book being written by Seamus Kevin Fahey [who is a "Battlestar" writer] and David Reed."

Does it mean that this comic is RDM-canon, and not just separate continuity like other comics? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 19:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

*This is a reference to the "The Final Five" 3 issue comic that will start releasing issues on March. You can see some of the covers and cover art have already been revealed [http://www.dynamiteentertainment.com/htmlfiles/c-Battlestar_Galactica_Final_Five.html]. As Espenson says, and the writers during an interview, the fact that they had inside knowledge since before anyone else did and the cooperation of writers from the show does lend legitimacy to whatever they show us, and it will most likely tie very closely to the show continuity. I think we might have to wait for more interviews and information regarding the comic series are revealed, but they certainly are rather close with the show. Still, one never knows what sort of things they could do that might differ from the show, so at this point it's hard to judge. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 21:48, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon/Archive4

2009-02-18T04:37:01Z

Sauron18: /* Significant Eight and Final Five? */ Keep the old name

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== The Final Cylon, Conception and Prophecy ==

:"The missing 3 will give you the five who come from the home of the thirteenth"

The human/cylon child hera obviously has a central role in the series. This is evidenced by her prescence in the opera house, 6 and baltar's delusion that the child is theirs, and the desire of both the human's and the cylons to retain possession of the child. Ill avoid discussing the the childs intended representation as the next evolutionary step in mankinds developement in order to emphasize a few overlooked facts. Conception has eluded the cylons until hera's birth. They can build machines, but they cannot create life. This leaves them unable to fufill the Cylon God's law to be fruitfull and multiply, i.e. procreate. If they cannot concieve they remain outside their god's will.

::A. HERA - is the product of a female cylon (sharon) and a male human (helo) thus estalishing that conception is possiblewith a couple composed of these constituient parts.
::B. NICK- is the product of a male cylon (tyrol) and a female human (cally) validating this type of conception is possible.
::C. BABY6 - is the product of a male cylon and a female cylon the last remaining combination and supposedly not possible. (is it tighs love for ellen a human that enables this conception ?)

However, back to the puzzle the missing 3 (Hera , Nick, Baby6) are 3 misssing babies will give you the five; so there must be a relationship here to the final five

TIGH....parent
TYROL......parent
Tory....hid baby hera at roslins direction
Sam.......I could use help on him

which leaves only 1 who has to be related in some way to the hybrid babies.....and which im keeping to myself....the baby's are the clue see if you can piece it together {{unsigned|Richnpoor}}

== Mechanical humanoid Cylons ==
How should we handle the mechanical humanoid Cylons from Caprica? Should we create a separate article for them, or should we give them a section in this article? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
:An own article might be warranted. We'll see when it airs. I don't think we should put them together with the modern humanoid Cylons. From what I read so far, they are more like machines, possibly with some biological components. But not ''humanoid''. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
::[[Zoe Graystone|Zoe-R]] looks completely human in the Caprica trailer. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:44, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

== Final Five ==
Should the Final Five section of the article be edited to match the layout of the Significant Seven part? To me personally it makes sense, simply for neatness and a better flow for the article. My proposed change is that each Final Five Cylon would have a subheading, picture and short blurb ala the Significant Seven. Instead of having the current subheading "The Final Cylon Model" we'd have "Samuel Anders", "Tory Foster", "Ellen Tigh", "Saul Tigh" and "Galen Tyrol" (I've went by alphabetical surname). Thoughts? -- [[User:Joveus|Joveus]] 08:37, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
:I couldn't agree more. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:45, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
::Well I've made the changes. I've also removed the "Thirteenth Cylon" bit because nothing has really been said about it in the series. However I think that might turn up on "A Disquiet Follows My Soul" tonight so maybe it'll come back. The article is 40kb now, and apparantly some browsers have difficulty supporting over 32kb. -- [[User:Joveus|Joveus]] 07:59, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

== Significant Eight and Final Five? ==

Personally, I always thought "Significant Seven" and "Final Five" were a little too cute, and changing it to "Significant Eight" is simply grating. Now that we know the full difference between the two sets, maybe we can use more appropriate descriptors, say, "Colonial Cylons" for the Seven/Eight, and "Terran Cylons" for the Five. -- [[User:David cgc|David cgc]] 13:01, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
*"Significant Seven" is a term coined by RDM himself. Apparently that's what the writers call them. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 13:57, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
:Indeed, but Significant Eight is a silly term now that they've added another. They are the humanoid Cylons made by the final five if you want to get descriptive, or the ones made near the twelve colonies. Can't call them "The Eight" as that might mean that model.--[[User:Bradtem|bradtem]] 04:58, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
**I think we should keep the titles "Significant Seven" and "Final Five", and just mention the Daniel & the Sevens within the section of the Significant Seven regardless of the fact that there are techincally eight. The fact is that they AREN'T the "significant eight", as only seven of them are significant, and although we should definitely reference the Daniels they are, at least as a model and probably even the one, not present in the story or in the Cylon society at all. -[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 04:37, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Final Five

2008-05-17T20:21:09Z

Sauron18: Clarification

[[Image:TheFinalFive.JPG|right|thumb|300px|The Final Five in the Kobol Opera House]]
The term "'''Final Five'''" collectively describes five of the twelve [[Humanoid Cylon|humanoid Cylon models]] whose identity, knowledge, or existence has been deliberately or accidentally lost to seven of the Humanoid Cylon models.

[[Caprica-Six]], when asked by [[Gaius Baltar]] about the five missing models he has not seen on the [[Basestar (RDM)|baseship]] he lives on or on [[New Caprica]], curtly replies that the others do not talk about the subject ([[Torn]]). Later she states that she is ''programmed'' not to think of them ([[He That Believeth In Me]]). A [[Hybrid]] refers to "the five who come from the home of the 13th", which makes Kara Thrace and her associates conclude the Final Five have been to [[Earth (RDM)|Earth]] ([[Faith]]).

==The Unauthorized Quest for the Five==
A [[Number Three]] copy, whom Gaius Baltar calls by her human alias, [[D'Anna Biers]], repeatedly commits suicide to get glimpses of five white-cloaked beings that she believes are images of the Final Five. She attempts to draw what she has seen, but has difficulty in doing so ([[Hero]]).

One detailed sketch which she briefly shows to Baltar depicts her personal artistic rendering of the faces of the Five ([[The Passage]]). The sketch is meant to depict [[Saul Tigh]], [[Galen Tyrol]], [[Samuel Anders]], [[Tory Foster]] and the twelfth and final Cylon. ([[Crossroads, Part II]]).

[[Image:FFSketches.jpg|thumb|left|Sketches of the Five.]]
Baltar's ability to see a virtual doppelganger of Caprica-Six (as well as enjoying her company in various pleasant environments) lead him to suggest that he might be using a Cylon technique known as [[projection]]. This suspicion, in turn, makes Baltar begin a personal inquiry into his own nature after allying himself with D'Anna-Three.

The two eventually make their way to the [[algae planet]], where a Colonial structure, the fabled [[Temple of Five]], awaits with possible answers ("[[The Passage]]", "[[The Eye of Jupiter]]"). When the system's dying star goes nova, a ray of light is generated by the mechanisms of the temple. Number Three steps into the light and suddenly finds herself back in the [[Opera House]] and before the same image of the Five, not persistent. Upon seeing their faces she recognizes one of them in particular, saying in surprise "You... forgive me... I had no idea." She is then pulled back to reality and collapses in Baltar's arms, apparently suffering the effects of a brain hemorrhage. She tells Baltar, "You were right," but dies before answering about what, or telling him what she saw. She tells the [[Cavil]] who greets her in the tank that there are five other Cylons, and he will see them some day.

In a rather striking irony, as the Three sacrifices all to see the Final Five, [[Galen Tyrol]] and [[Samuel Anders]] are just outside the Temple, being shot at by her centurions. Only because Tyrol delays firing off explosives left in the temple does she get a chance to stand within it at activation.

Although four of the final five have been revealed ([[Crossroads, Part II]]), the identity of the person she recognized remains a mystery ([[Rapture]]).

==Awareness of the Five by other seven Cylons==

Caprica Six indicates that the Cylons do not speak of the Five, but she knows how many there are. She later tells Roslin that she is actually "programmed not to think of them." [[D'Anna Biers]] also indicates to Baltar that they do not discuss the Five. A [[Cavil]] realizes in the [[Temple of Five]] that Biers is attempting to see the Final Five, and not simply seeking [[Earth (RDM)|Earth]]. He tells her "That can't happen" and points a gun at her to stop her, but is shot by Baltar. Later, a Cavil explains that because of her obsession her entire line will be [[boxing|boxed]] ([[Rapture]]).

A [[Leoben Conoy]] claims that "Adama is a Cylon" though neither Adama is one of the other six Cylons he should know. If an Adama were a member of the final five, Leoben should not, in theory, know this. However, it is commonly believed that he is lying ([[Flesh and Bone]]).

The [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] copy of Number Eight, interrogated by Baltar, declares there are eight Cylons in the Fleet. Given that Season 3 episodes confirm that the Seven do not interact (or are unwilling to interact) with the Five, the number that Boomer gives is likely other Seven copies in disguise. (This tendency to disguise is confirmed through [[Shelly Godfrey]], [[Gina Inviere]] and an unnamed Number Six with black hair found on a stricken baseship in "[[Torn]]"). Also supporting this is the scene where number Three and Sharon Valerii discover Samuel Anders and refer to him as human in the episode "[[Downloaded]]". A later episode, "[[Rapture]]", shows a Three recognizing one of the faces of the Five, confirming the lack of information to the Seven on the Five's identities.

Both [[Caprica Six]] and Sharon Agathon share a dream vision in which the glowing, white-robed figures of the Five are shown in the [[Opera House]] ([[Crossroads, Part II]]). After their activation, Caprica Six, aboard ''Galactica'', has a sense that the Final Five are near ([[He That Believeth In Me]]), but fails to recognize Tigh even when directly confronted by him ([[Escape Velocity]]).

There are cases of the Seven and the Five doing violence to each other. D'Anna Biers attacked Anders on Caprica ([[Downloaded]]), and Anders himself attacked Conoy ([[The Road Less Traveled]]). Tigh's right eye was taken out by Doral. Anders also threatens a [[New Caprica]] copy of [[Number Six]] after she kills [[Jean Barolay]] ([[Faith]]).

While [[Cylon Centurion]]s are programmed to recognize and obey [[humanoid Cylon]]s, on a number of occasions they shoot at members of the Five, including Tyrol on Kobol, Anders both on Caprica and outside the Temple of Five, and most members during the escape from [[New Caprica]].

This seems to change after their "activation", as during the [[Battle of the Ionian Nebula]], a Cylon Raider makes eye contact with [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] in a Viper, causing a brief red flash from Anders' eye. Immediately, the Raider breaks off its attack, and the entire Cylon fleet retreats ([[He That Believeth In Me]]).

==Four Revealed, and their nature==

[[Image:Four Revealed.jpg|thumb|Four of the Final Five from left to right: [[Galen Tyrol]], [[Tory Foster]], [[Samuel Anders]] and [[Saul Tigh]].]]

As the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] draws closer to the [[Ionian nebula]], four people begin hearing an [[The Music|unusual melody]]: these four are Colonel [[Saul Tigh]], Chief [[Galen Tyrol]], Ensign [[Samuel Anders]] and presidential aide [[Tory Foster]] ([[Crossroads, Part I]]). Tyrol and Anders say that the song seems like something from their childhoods, while Tigh becomes progressively more disturbed as he begins to hear the music everywhere on ''Galactica''. Foster becomes noticeably distracted, irritable, and unkempt, claiming to have not been sleeping well. When the fleet finally arrives at the Ionian Nebula the song becomes clear to the four who can hear it and they begin to stalk the halls of ''Galactica'' muttering its mysterious lyrics. Eventually, the four arrive at ''Galactica''’s gym and upon seeing each other the truth becomes clear to them; they are Cylons, four of the Final Five. When they learn the truth, they decide to remain loyal to the Colonial Fleet, because they were humans for as long as they can remember, and cling to what they know to make sense of their lives. Moreover, Tigh sees himself as a soldier first and wants to hold up his oath.

After activation, the four revealed Cylons are unaware of any thoughts like Boomer's [[Sharon Valerii#Acts of sabotage|Cylon directives]] other than that they are Cylons. In a sense they know less than the audience and the Significant Seven, who at least know that the Final Five are fundamentally different models.<ref>{{cite_rdm_podcast|episode=Frak Party Q and A|act=|id=ffdifferent|timestamp=19:05|totalrunning=78:27}}</ref> Tigh and Anders painfully and confusedly recite events from their lives which make little sense in the context of their newly revealed nature. With particular pain, Tigh asks "My gods, what about Ellen?" His personal execution of his wife for being a Cylon collaborator, and his pain over it, have been a major theme in the episode.

The nature of these Cylons is clearly different from the other seven. In particular, Colonel Tigh's friendship with William Adama stretches back to shortly after the end of the first Cylon War and in an interview<ref>{{cite_web|url=http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm|title=Post-Gazette Moore interview}}</ref> Ron Moore stated that Tigh "fought in two wars." ([[Crossroads, Part II]])

These Cylons also seem to be susceptible to human infirmities: Tigh's ongoing battles with alcoholism, Tyrol suffering from decompression sickness - although to a lesser extent than his wife ([[A Day in the Life]]), and Anders contracting pneumonia ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]), though he is able to make a full recovery without treatment ([[Occupation]]). However, since the Final Five possess at least some of the Cylons' superhuman strength, they likely possess other physical Cylon traits as well ([[The Ties That Bind]]).

As the Seven do not hold (or appear to desire) knowledge of the Five, and with their special nature, their ability to [[Resurrection (RDM)|resurrect]] and the existence of multiple copies for any of the Five are uncertain based on aired events and official responses.<ref>{{cite_web|url=http://www.syfyportal.com/news423878.html|title=Things Get Ugly In 'Battlestar' Season 4|date=Jul-10-2007|accessdate=Jul-13-2007|}}</ref> [[Caprica Six]] describes being "programmed" not to think of the Five ([[He That Believeth In Me]]) and it is unknown whether the Five and Seven ever co-existed in the same location.

===Connections between the Colonial gods and Cylon god===
*The Temple of Five was built over 4,000 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], long before the Cylons existed. The [[Thirteenth Tribe (RDM)|Thirteenth Tribe]] would, logically, have no knowledge of these automatons in the strictest sense. However, the Thirteenth Tribe has significant prophetic insight, as shown in the works of [[Pythia]]. According to Colonial scriptures, "Five pillars of the temple were fashioned after the five priests devoted to the one whose name cannot be spoken". This may have been another Lord of Kobol, given that on a deleted scene [[Elosha]] noted that the fall of [[Kobol (RDM)|Kobol]] and its civilization was due in part to a "jealous god".
*On [[New Caprica]], Number Three meets [[Dodona Selloi]], a human [[oracle]], who relays a message from Three's God, despite the oracle's association with the Lords of Kobol.
*With this information, there is a strong, but unexplained correlation or connection with the the Cylon God and the [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)#The Lords of Kobol|Lords of Kobol]].

===Kara Thrace, The Eye of Jupiter, and the First Hybrid===
*The Eye of Jupiter storyline introduced an association between Kara Thrace, a human that [[Eye of Jupiter|"doodled" a circular image as a child]] with no prior derivation (her old apartment on [[Caprica (RDM)|Caprica]] has a painting of the image from the episode, "[[Valley of Darkness]]"), and the mandalas or icons of the eye that decorated a temple built 4,000 years before her birth. No further information is revealed other than the prophecy from [[Leoben Conoy]], who told Thrace of an [[The Destiny|unexplained "destiny"]] ([[Flesh and Bone]]).
*The [[first Hybrid|first Hybrid]] gives a monologue about his knowledge of the Final Five in the extended version of "[[Razor]]". It states:

:"Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening, struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity and in the midst of confusion, he will find her. Enemies brought together by impossible longing. Enemies now joined as one. The way forward at once unthinkable, yet inevitable. And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."

:Its description predicts the internal revelation that four of the Five would experience in "[[Crossroads, Part II]]". The fifth and final Cylon remains hidden, longing to be forgiven for some type of trespass, but will experience suffering in the process.

*The first Hybrid also mentions Kara Thrace to [[Kendra Shaw]], claiming, "She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death..." as the end of the human race. He warns Shaw that the humans should not follow her ([[Razor]]). However, the Hybrid never confirms Thrace's nature.

===Illusion or Truth===
*The Threes' hunt for and see visions of the Five, which leads to the other Cylons themselves [[boxing]] the entire line of Threes after her discovery, but whether this is done to suppress the notion or actual information of the final five or to relieve the other Cylons of an aberrant model is unclear.
*Later, in dream visions of the [[Opera House]] shared by [[Laura Roslin]], [[Sharon Agathon]] and [[Caprica Six]], the same 5 glowing figures seen by Three appear, along with the same chamber with six drapes, this time empty. Six sees them for a more prolonged period in a second vision.
*As the [[Temple of Five]] was apparently built for human usage, the Temple may have only allowed the transitional visions that the Threes see to be more persistent and clear. It may never be revealed what Baltar (or another human) would have seen. While Baltar believed Three and actively participated in her quest, both his virtual Six and a [[Hybrid]] noted that he, not Three, was intended to use the Temple's imaging mechanism as the "chosen one". The human association and significance of the [[five priests]], [[The One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken|the god they worshiped]], and their connections with the Cylons, Kara Thrace and Baltar are not yet explained.

==Notes==
* The podcast for "[[Rapture]]" confirms that the final five Cylons have not been [[boxing|boxed]] <ref>{{cite_rdm_podcast|episode=Rapture|act=4|id=firstboxing|timestamp=41:47|totalrunning=}}</ref>.
* During a Q&A session on the official Sci Fi channel ''Battlestar Galactica'' forum Ronald D. Moore notes that he already knows who the last Cylon is, and that he's already left clues as to who it is<ref>[http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2270103&st=0&p=3041263&#entry3041263 20 Answers - SCI FI FORUMS] Retrieved 03-27-2007</ref>.
* With the revelation of the all the "Significant Seven"'s model numbers in "[[Six of One]]", the model numbers of the Final Five are, by process of elimination, Number Seven, Number Nine, Number Ten, Number Eleven, and Number Twelve. Which model corresponds to which number is unknown.

{{WikiFrakr|Fantastic Four}}

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Religion]]
[[Category:Colonial Religion (RDM)]]
[[Category:Cylon Religion (RDM)]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

[[de:Final Five]]
[[ms:Lima Terakhir]]

Talk:Cylon Centurion/Archive 1

2008-05-11T20:49:39Z

Sauron18: /*New Design, or Variant Centurion?*/

The stub calls the Warrior an "upgrade" of the old chrome toaster.
Given what we have seen of the inside of the BaseStar and Starbuck's Raider, isn't it likely that the Warrior is a product of the semi-organic line of Cylons?

The Warrior is, at best, the conceptual and functional sucessor to the old Centurion. A similar relationship might be found between the the M-4 Sherman tanke of World War II and the M-1A2 Abrams tank of today. Both machines do the same job, have many analogous features, but the only contributions the Sherman made to the development of the Abrams were its flaws.

Nick Kuzmik

: Actually, given that we never saw any organic matter come out of a shot Cylon Warrior, we can assume it is more robotic than organic. Obviously, this has not been stated overtly, so it is still conjecture. Therefore, it is possible that the Cylon Warrior is an "evolutionary" step to an organic-like Cylon (one with more fluid movement and flexibility) using non-organic materials. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe.Beaudoin]] (not logged in)

We need a better pic, like one from the miniseries or "33".--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:03, 24 February 2006 (EST)

== Deployed Greatly ==

What does "However, when Centurions are deployed greatly, they are deployed in huge numbers." mean? I'd delete it outright, but someone just added it, so I'd feel bad. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 13:56, 1 April 2006 (CST)

:I have no such compunction. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:09, 1 April 2006 (CST)

Bigger problem: what's with that ''entire'' paragraph? How do we *know* they weren't deployed in large numbers on the ground to mop up colonial units after the intial attacks? I always assumed they were, just off screen.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:46, 1 April 2006 (CST)

<blockquote>The Cylon Centurions may also have different armors. For instance, a small number of them wreaked havoc when boarding Galactica, and could only be destroyed using explosive rounds (Valley of Darkness). </blockquote>
Other than their resistance to small arms fire, there was no indication that the Centurion boarding party comprised an up-armored model, although that would not be a bad a idea considering the close and nasty fighting they could anticipate.

Comparison of the images on the Centurion page <ref>http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Cylon_Centurion_New_001.jpg</ref> and <ref>http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Centz.jpg</ref> does show evidence of modified armor. Furthermore, additional armor would reduce speed and manuverability, which creates a contradiction, as the attack on Galactica is when the Centurions were at their most nimble. I propose that this is not a matter of Cylon armor, but of Colonial ammo.

Its been a while... that and I don't own any of the DVD's so somebody has to help me out here...
But Helo and Boomer's "kills" on Caprica are suspect because the Cylons were playing with him. Did we ever confirm the destruction of a Centrion via Colonial Fleet sidearm fire? Or did they just fall down and play dead after getting hit with lead spitballs?

On Kobol, again, I don't recal any confirmed pistol kills, we did see some probable rifle kills. But a rifle with full metal jacket, ball round; heck, if I'm fighting Cylons, all I'm bringing is armor-piercing; is a very different catridge from a pistol round. By way of example, fire a full metal jacket, 9 mm Parabellum from a HK P9 pistol. Now fire that same round from an HK MP5. The MP5 will have higher muzzle velocity, longer range, greater accuracy, and greater penetration. Changed that to a necked-down micro-caliber, and a service rifle could concievably take out Centurions with the right ammo.

Which brings us to the question: "Why didn't they have the good bullets on Galactica?" Sean Connery said it oh so well in Hunt For Red October, "Most of the things in here don't react too well to bullets."
Shipboard security is probably issued some time of frangible round that won't over penetrate, and won't richocet too much. That also means it is pretty much uselless against armor. The limited stockpile of explosive rounds are there "just in case" they need to penetrate some armor, but the dedicated armor piercing ammo is probably stored somewhere that was not conveniently accessible.

With regards to the Cylons varried speed and intelligence, I still think that the Centurions are like the Raiders, crunchy on the outside, chewy on the inside. Its also possible that the team sent to board Galactica was a group of elites. Older, more experiences, better trained. Kind of like Scar in a way...

[[User:Grimlock|Grimlock]] 20:24, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:You make some good speculative points based on episode history. You might want to review the article to see where you can add these questions you bring up as references or in the notes section of the article, as appropriate. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:29, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

:That centurions come equipped with different armor was mentioned by Bradley Thompson in the BW:OC. They are neither organic nor sentient though. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:06, 16 October 2006 (CDT)
:Yeah, I noticed the stuff about the non-sentient, non-organic stuff shortly after writing all that. I guess the if its an official source we have to accept the assorted armor thing. Though it begs the question, why not use the beefy ones more often?
[[User:Grimlock|Grimlock]] 23:19, 16 October 2006 (CDT)
:: The Cylons are practical beings, who are limited by the amount of natural resources at their disposal. It follows that they may not need to upgrade Centurions ''en masse'' since it's not the most practical thing to do. As Six mentions in the Miniseries, they still have the old "walking chrome toaster" models around, since they have their uses. Or they may simply be limited by said resources at their disposal. After all, you don't need a heavily armored Cylon to plant tress now, do you? In addition to that question, bear in mind that Centurions also double as manual labor -- heavier armor detracts their effectiveness, even if they are machines. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 07:48, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

== Armor Hood ==
More a question of curiosity then anything else, but while I was looking at some of the pictures (especially the ones from the miniseries and those from season 3) I noticed the metal "hood" the Centurions have that covers the back of their head seems to vary in sizes. In the miniseries and the full body picture in the wiki, the hood seems to rise higher then the top of the cylon's head. But in other [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Centz.jpg shots], such as those of the Centurion garding Baltar in Collaborators, the hood seems noticeably smaller. I'm wondering if its a change in design or simply due to the positioning of the Cylon's head. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 22:40, 30 October 2006 (CST)
:It's just the positioning, the Centurions have looked the same throughought the whole series, if only looking a bit taller....but they're probably the same height too. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:51, 30 October 2006 (CST)

== Downloads and Centurions ==

We've already established that Centurions are just 'bots. No organics, presumably no downloading. While Athena may have provided the reasoning behind that, there is a good reason not to limit the Centurions that way. The best example is Scar. He was experienced, wily, and very lethal.

Now imagine how the events in Valley Darkness could have gone if there was one centurion on each team that had 1/3 of that skill and experience. I'm not saying the Centurions can't learn... but if they can learn and benefit from experience, are they smart enough to rebel later?

The smart move would be to build a Centurion around the CNS of a skin job and just download into a "combat" body when needed. But this doesn't seem possible. Recall tha tCavil had to scratch open his carotid artery with and empty shell casin.

Not sure where I'm going here but something is bugging me
[[User:Grimlock|Grimlock]] 13:03, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Slur/nickname sources ==
It'd look great if we could track down the episodes where the "bullethead", etc., euphemisms are used and cite them using ref tags (so that we'd actually have a references section). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:21, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
:I added them directly into the article, but they are in order. Should be their first appearances, but "bullethead" and" "chrome job" have been used on other occasions too I think --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:16, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

== Height ==
Guys, how tall are Centurions? Majestic's 12-inch figure is really 13.5' (1:6) which would translate into a real-life height of 6'9' '. Others say it's more like seven or even eight feet. What do you think? -- [[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 09:02, 23 September 2007 (CDT)hat
:I would say, based on on screen evidence, that they are in the 6'5' to 6'7' range. --[[User:Helo87|Helo87]]

==Knowledge of the Five==
There's a line in the article which I feel we should perhaps remove-

:'''''"As with the Seven humanoids, the identities of the "Final Five" Cylons are not known to Centurions, as several soldiers have fired on these people before, notably Samuel Anders."'''''

I think this mainly because it's not a fact, and the fact is that for all we know they haven't been shooting at Anders but at his resistance people (never actually hit him), so whether they do or don't recognize the Five is not really known, and while we can guess from what we see, it's not certain. So I would suggest we just remove it to prevent any possible problems in the future. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:02, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
: I agree, since it isn't explicitly stated or inferred one way or the other. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki — ''New''] 16:11, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

== Laser gun? ==

Too me it looks more like a shotgun --[[User:KDP3|KDP3]] 22:23, 9 December 2007 (CST)
: Are you referring to the caption for the image in the gallery? If so, the image caption says "large gun", not "laser gun". -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki — ''New''] 22:28, 9 December 2007 (CST)

yeah I reread it {{unsigned|KDP3}}

== "Shooting" Cylons ==

The process of actually comping in a Cylon Centurion is a little different than described in the final paragraph. The cardboard cutout is used only for framing purposes, so that there's enough space for VFX to place a Centurion properly. Stand-ins may be used in blocking out complex moves, but when it comes to shooting, there's nothing there, meaning the actors are reacting to empty space. Anything left in the shot would mean additional work for VFX to erase it before comping something. I haven't seen the video blog referenced (Sci-Fi seems to have taken down the blogs), but it almost sounds like a joke the crew was playing on hapless PAs. -- [[User:Mmm...toasty|Mmm...toasty]] 21:10, 13 February 2008 (CST)

== Re-formatting the article. ==

Would anyone consider re-formatting this article to make it more like the one for the 0005 Model Centurion? I like the general design of that page and the way that it cleanly presents information - and that it gels with the ship articles in terms of layout. I could redo this article to fit said mold in the next few weeks, if this is desired by the community, or someone else could do it before hand if they want to see it done earlier. --[[User:Helo87|Helo87]]

== Telencephalic Inhibitor Implications (see link to other talk page) ==

[[Talk:Telencephalic_inhibitor#Implications_are_being_propigated.]]

There are massive irresponsible implications being made, that have no basis in the show canon. --[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 09:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

==New Design, or Variant Centurion?==
In the sixth episode of the fourth season, Faith, a Centurion in the Hybrid's chamber has a design that differs from the ones we'd seen previously. Here is an image:

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/1618/centurionsgq3.jpg

It's not a huge difference, mainly those added divisions on the shoulders, but the Centurion also appears to be a bit shorter and slightly thicker. Idk if it's worthy of being mentioned, or what other's thoughts on this are.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 20:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

God (RDM)

2008-04-08T21:38:33Z

Sauron18: Suggested Image Edit

[[Image:Bscap059.jpg|thumb|250px|"I am an instrument of God" --[[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] in [[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]]]

The [[Humanoid Cylon|humanoid Cylons]], as well as a small minority of humans, worship a single deity they call only by the name of '''God'''. Cylons justify or attribute much of their actions, including the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|genocidal attack against humanity]], as a requirement of their God. The Cylons profess a series of commandments given by their God. However, the specific commandments have not fully revealed.

While very knowledgeable of the [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies#Lords of Kobol|Lords of Kobol]], the Cylons feel that the Colonials worship false gods ([[Home, Part I]])<ref>Despite the [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies|parallelism]] of the Lords of Kobol with the Olympian Gods of real-world Earth mythology, the parallelisms of the [[Wikipedia:Abrahamic conceptions of God|Judeo-Christian God]] are fewer. In "[[Occupation]]", Leoben Conoy prays before a meal, using a prayer that begins with "Heavenly father." When several dying Cylons are found on a [[Basestar (RDM)|baseship]], they crawl together and [[Prayer to the Cloud of Unknowing|begin a prayer]] that also includes "Heavenly father." "Heavenly Father" is attested as a chiefly Mormon name for God, similar to the other parallels with the Mormon faith. [http://www.religionfacts.com/mormonism/beliefs/god_heavenly_father.htm]</ref>.

Several seemingly miraculous events suggest that there may be more to the Cylon God than mere myth. [[Virtual Six]] has claimed to be an agent of her deity, and has access to knowledge which seems to belie rational explanation. The healing of [[Derrick]] is similarly inexplicable.

==Twelve Colonies==
A small minority of monotheistic humans existed on the [[Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]] before the Fall. Their religion was illegal in at least some of the Colonies (including [[Caprica (RDM)|Caprica]]) and most of them were forced to hide their beliefs<ref name="casting call">{{cite_web|url=http://www.tvsquad.com/2008/04/03/exclusive-caprica-casting-info-revealed/|title=Caprica casting info|date=Apr 3, 2008}} '''Note:''' This information is based on early reports and casting sheets, and thus subject to change.</ref>.
{{spoiltext|Two of them were [[Zoe Graystone]], a closeted monotheist and her boyfriend, [[Ben Stark]], who was more fanatical of the two. Graystone and Stark died in a suicide bombing caused by the latter, but before they died, they managed to upload their memories into online avatars. Zoe Graystone's avatar, Zoe-A, was later uploaded into the first Cylon, created by her father, [[Daniel Graystone]]. The fact that the first Cylon had the memories of a human monotheist might have been the cause of the Cylons' belief in one God.}}

==First Hybrid==
Cylon databases report of a [[First Hybrid|protoype Hybrid]] which was the result of early experiments in evolution to biological beings. This experiment was considered a failure but believed by some to still be alive. When [[Kendra Shaw]] meets this hybrid, he declares that "my children believe I am a god" and he makes a number of statements demonstrating significant and prophetic knowledge. He refers to Kendra as "my child." ([[Razor]]).

==Baltar==
[[Gaius Baltar]], initially sceptical of all religion, is converted to the Cylon faith though the persuasion of his Virtual Six and comes to conclude that he is an agent of God ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]). Despite this Baltar is far from a model believer and his path of faith is very rocky.

Upon orders from Virtual Six, Baltar instructs his [[Cult of Baltar|cult]], who appear to regard him as a prophet, to follow the "one true God", though it does not seem likely he has explained that this is also the Cylon God.

==Notable References==
* "Maybe the Cylons are God's retribution for our many sins. What if God decided he made a mistake and he decided to give souls to another creature, like the Cylons?" -- [[Leoben Conoy]], [[Miniseries, Night 2]]
* "God didn't create the Cylons. Man did. And I'm pretty sure we didn't include a soul in the programming." -- William Adama, Miniseries
* "I was right. See, our faiths are similar but I look to one God, not to many." -- Leoben Conoy, "[[Flesh and Bone]]"
* "To know the face of God is to know madness. I see the universe. I see the patterns. I see the foreshadowing that precedes every moment of every day. It's all there, I see it and you don't." -- Leoben Conoy, "Flesh and Bone"
* "I am more than you could ever imagine. I am God." -- Leoben Conoy, "Flesh and Bone"
* "It's funny, isn't it? We're all God, Starbuck, all of us. I see the love that binds all living things together. ... I know that God loved you more than all other living creatures and you repaid his divine love with sin, with hate, corruption, evil. So then he decided to create the Cylons." -- Leoben Conoy, "Flesh and Bone"
* "And this time, your role...you have to deliver my soul unto God. Do it for me. It's [[The Destiny|your destiny, and mine]]." -- Leoben Conoy, "Flesh and Bone"
* "Procreation, it’s one of God’s commandments, be fruitful. We can’t fulfill it we tried so we decided to <nowiki>[</nowiki>''create [[farms]]''<nowiki>]</nowiki>." -- [[Sharon Agathon|Caprica-Valerii]], "[[The Farm]]"

===Judeo-Christian References===
[[Image:Cylon God.jpg|thumb|240px|Baltar and his Angel.]]

The Re-imagined Series contains few references to [[Wikipedia:Judeo-Christian|Judeo-Christian]] concepts.

* "Jesus." -- Colonel Tigh, Miniseries (unscripted ad-lib)<ref>According to [[Ronald D. Moore|RDM]], the "Jesus" line was an [[Wikipedia:ad-lib|ad-lib]] by [[Michael Hogan]]. Therefore, it should not be taken as a serious reference to [[Wikipedia:Christianity|Christianity]].</ref>

* "I was... [Six: ''Am.''] I am..." -- [[Gaius Baltar]], "[[The Hand of God]]" (full quote in previous section)

* "Come on, [[James McManus|Jim]]. [[Wallace Gray]] is no 'prince of darkness.'" -- [[Playa Palacios]], "[[Colonial Day]]"

* "I figured, the devil you know..." -- [[Laura Roslin]], "Colonial Day"

* "God is love" -- Number Six, Miniseries, (1 John 4:16)

The "I am" statement in "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]" is noteworthy because of the self-description that the Judeo-Christian God gives to Moses in the Book of Exodus, [[Wikipedia:I am that I am|"I am that I am"]]. The Christian messiah, Jesus, has a series of "I am" statements in the New Testament of the Bible. The Bible contains over 300 "I am" statements. The Hebrew name for God, [[Wikipedia:Yahweh|Yahweh]], is derived from the Hebrew word for "I am" or "to be".

The five priests of the [[Temple of Five]] worshiped a "god whose name must not be spoken." In Jewish tradition, the name of God (Yahweh) is not spoken. In a [[List of Deleted Scenes (RDM)#Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I|deleted scene]] ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]), [[Elosha]] states that the exodus from Kobol was precipitated when "one jealous god began to desire that he be elevated above all the other gods, and the war on Kobol began." The 1st commandment requires the faithful have no other god before Yahweh.

A number of elements from the show derive from Mormonism, the religion of series creator [[Glen Larson]]. In particular, the concept of a lost [[Thirteenth Tribe (RDM)|Thirteenth Tribe]] is from Mormon legend. The [[Quorum of Twelve]] is also a Mormon concept.

A curious parallel to the series is found in the Exodus story of the Old Testament: [[Wikipedia:Moses|Moses]] led the Israelites out of the Egyptian captivity toward the promised land, but did not live to lead the Israelites into the promised land because he doubted the water coming from the stone (Numbers 20:12). This parallels the [[Pythia|Pythian prophecy]] of the leader (presumed to be [[Laura Roslin]]) ,who, according to the [[Sacred Scrolls]], will not live to see the promised land of Earth ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).

The name of [[Pergamus Flats]] (a location on [[New Caprica]]) is similar to [[Wikipedia:Pergamus|Pergamus]], a city mentioned in Revelation 2:12.

Both the [[Colonials]] and the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] have had an experience similar to the Jewish exodus from [[w:Egypt|Egypt]]; the Cylons following the [[Cylon War|war with the Colonies]] and the Colonials following their [[Exodus, Part II|escape from]] [[New Caprica]].

==Official statements==
*In an [http://www.battlestargalactica.com/outside_docs/bg_outdoc0050.htm interview with BattlestarGalactica.com on December 28th, 2005] Ron Moore was asked about fan speculation that the Cylon God may be Count Iblis in the Re-imagined Series:

: Q: "There's speculation that Count Iblis' counterpart in this series is the as-yet-unseen Cylon God. Is there any possibility that elements of the original series "War of the Gods" storyline may weave themselves into the new series?

:RDM: While I have thought of incorporating the Count Iblis/Ship of Lights mythology from the original show into the series, I've pretty much decided not to go there for now. The theological construct we've been establishing seems more interesting to me at this point and I don't think Iblis will be part of the current show."

*RDM noted in his [[podcast]] of "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]", that the original ending of Season One called for actor [[Dirk Benedict]] to appear to [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] on [[Kobol (RDM)|Kobol]] and introduce himself as "God". Numerous prohibiting factors prevented this storyline from making it on camera, chief among them was Moore's confessed inability to write a feasible conclusion to the surprise revelation at the time. Another mitigating factor which influenced Moore to drop the idea was that when he revealed his idea to the other writers, the entire writing team found the idea simply revolting, so Moore acquiesced.

* In an [http://www.beliefnet.com/story/166/story_16650_3.html interview at beliefnet.com] Ron Moore made the following statement in response to the question:
:Q: " In “Galactica 1980,” we actually meet the “Imperious Commander” of the Cylons who turns out to be the Devil in the guise of a humanoid. Will we ever meet the maker of the Cylons in this version?

:A: I think if we ever found an answer to why the Cylons have a god or who the god is--you know, the guy steps out from behind the curtain--I think you’d be disappointed. They’re in an interesting place in that their faith is as legitimate as the human faith. Human beings have souls given by the gods, and Cylons have a soul given by their one true god and that has to be just as valid. That means there is a plan for their soul and something for them after they die too. It’s a fundamental element of their faith. "

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial]]
[[Category:Colonial History]]
[[Category:Colonial History (RDM)]]
[[Category:Colonial Religion]]
[[Category:Colonial Religion (RDM)]]
[[Category:Colonial Society]]
[[Category:Colonial Society (RDM)]]
[[Category:Cylon Religion (RDM)]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

<pagesidebar>
* See Also
** Cylon Religion|Cylon Religion
* Analogues
**Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)#The Lords of Kobol|Colonial Deities and Religion
* Other Series
** God (TOS)|God in the Original Series
</pagesidebar>

Talk:God (RDM)/Archive 1

2008-04-07T23:42:41Z

Sauron18: /*Image*/

It always seemed to me that "God" is the Cylon central computer (or equivalent). My hypothesis is that the "re-imagined" Count Iblis will be the God.[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:21, 21 May 2005 (EDT)

== from the author ==

Do you like this style of this God page that I wrote? I personally think the quotes are too numerous. I'll probably delete some quotes, but it's hard to know which might prove important. For example, Adama's speaking of God may be significant. I would love to have such quotes about other topics on other Wiki pages, as it's easier to do unbiased research this way.

Regarding your theory of the Cylon God being Iblis, although there probably is a head Cylon like that, their religion seems more abstract: "We are all God, all of us. I see the love that binds all living things together."

Should we include deleted scenes on Wiki pages? There is an important bit of dialog in KLG 1 about the legend of a jealous god who tried to elevate himself above the rest. Internal Six replies something like, "Blasphemy! There has only ever been one God."

I need help for the original series section of this God page. I haven't watched the original series since the late 70's! Feel free to do whatever you want with that section.

-[[User:MHall|MHall]]

I don't think we should include colonial expressions of "God", as I'm pretty sure they're just accidentals from the actors. - Chris

:The "… play God …" quote in particular needn't be considered monotheistic. A polytheist can easily refer to a singular god, and not mean the only God. "play god" can just as easily mean "play at being a god" as "play at being God himself".

:I would recommend removing that one at the very least from the monotheist list.
:--[[User:Brons|Brons]] 08:37, 3 December 2006 (CST)
:In complete agreement, I have removed that sentence. Even a polytheistic religion can refer to one god like this. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 11:57, 3 December 2006 (CST)

== about that "Jesus" thing ==

I've seen the original US release of the miniseries once, but what I've watched the most is the UK DVD. And I can't recall Tigh saying "Jesus". Wasn't that dubbed over with something else? I vaguely recall reading something about that --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:02, 13 September 2006 (CDT)
:It's in both of my copies of the miniseries (the pre-season one release and the season one boxed set.) The Lord appears in mysterious dialogue. :P --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 15:16, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
::It's when Adama shows Tigh the really old picture. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 15:18, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
::Yeah, I found it by now. It's really under the breath, which is why I missed it. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:24, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
Should that even be mentioned in the article? I thought that was just a mistake made by the actor. --[[User:R.Adair|R.Adair]]
:It's mentioned on the general gaffe article and some other places. But yeah, it's relevance here is somewhat doubtful. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:59, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

==pockets of Monotheism in the colonies?==

Ok this is a small matter but from the mini did anyone get the feeling that the worship of one single god wasn't completely unheard of in the colonies? Six's comments about God are mocked by Baltar but he isn't shocked by the notion of one god. Basically what I'm getting at is that in the real world we have people who claim to have gone back to pagan religions and they worship multiple gods...could the opposite have been true in the colonies. That a monotheistic religion was something some colonists adapted as a way to be contrary or as even an actual alternative to the kobolian faith? I'm not saying it was widespread or even a major issue within the colonies. Basically there were colonists who wanted to be different and were mocked for having what other colonists percieved as a wacky religion. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 02 February 2007.
: Gaeta makes comments that seem to support this in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I" when Adama reviews the texts regarding Kobol. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:11, 2 February 2007 (CST)
::Caprica casting info confirms it, so I added a bit about it, with the part directly connected with Caprica plot hidden as a spoiler. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 18:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

=="Scientific Explanation" Section==
Perhaps it's me, but I feel that this section is mainly theoretical and as such should not really be there. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:38, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
:Erm, never mind ;) --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:39, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
:I really like it, and vaguely thought of something similar once (not in such detail, but that god is a real construct). It also reminds me of the Ultimate Intelligence in Dan Simmon's ''[[w:Hyperion Cantos|Hyperion Cantos]]'' which I read recently. But as you say, unfortunately it's way to speculative for this place. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:42, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
::It's not in the series and has no sources and is wholly fanwank. I've rolled it back and await any sources. I can say that the Cylons are actually part of the ancient Matrix, but that doesn't make it true. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:45, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
:::I'm well aware of that and said that it has no place here. I just think it's interesting nonetheless. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:48, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
::::Sorry, didn't mean to sound at all snappy there. I'm feeling a bit [[w:birthday|"''get off my lawn you crazy kids''"]] today and probably tomorrow. 8/ --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:50, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
:::::Hello, I am the one who wrote the original article. As for the information, I got the quoted portions from the wiki on the subject http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity, which has multiple links to respected sources, especially http://www.kurzweilai.net/index.html?flash=1, which was where I first heard about the idea. If there is a specific way to write an article that includes respected sources, please let me know and I will consider writing one. As for it being "mainly theoretical" and "speculative," I would argue the "Background to FTL in the Re-imagined Series" article is just as speculative as no one in the series mentions the physics behind it. However, it did not stop someone on committing how FTL is scientifically plausible, thus showing how true to reality the show can be. I check this sight frequently and I am always disappointed that no one wrote about how the cylon "god" (or any "god") is scientifically plausible. In keeping with how true to reality the show can be, I thought it was appropriate to comment on how a "god" could actually exist in nBSG without relying on a supernatural basis or aliens.--[[User:DuMan|DuMan]] 22:01, 21 June 2007 (CDT)
::::::For what it's worth, there was some concern about the FTL article as well, regarding its validity to the show. At least as far as the scientific speculation is concerned. And some articles are indeed more speculative than others, making some case-by-case decisions necessary. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how well you source your information here, as the problem is its connection to the show itself.
::::::I understand that you put some effort into this, and even basically agree with it, or appreciate it. But aside from a minimal note like "It's hasn't been established whether this God is supernatural or can be explained with scientific means", I don't see how we can use any of this. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 01:21, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
:::::::On the first point, philosophically, I do appreciate the FTL article and any article that adds more information to the show even if the show does not explicitly say it, so long as that information has a ''strong scientific'' backing. As the show holds so strongly to a tenant of expressing realism, I am sure its creators would incorporate any strong scientific concepts into their verse as they have with networking, nuclear arms, and AI, provided they had time to mention it.
:::::::As I read through the adjacent article on cylon religion, I was unable to find the source of your quotes, but regardless most of the articles on this site imply that the cylon god is a supernatural being. This article refers to the god as a "deity" and the article on cylon religion refers to it as a "metaphysical being." The latter term does support other definitions of the cylon’s god being more of an abstract concept or an idea rather than supernatural entity, but it still does not address the actual scientific plausibility of a "god" existing. Without a possible scientific explanation, readers will always walk away with the one-sided idea that the cylon god is and can only be a supernatural being, rather than something scientifically plausible as AI.
:::::::As for my intentions, I thought my writing was bad and wrote most of it off the cuff, thus I was not particularly proud of it. My main intention was to generate discussion on this topic and have its possibility mentioned in the article. ''Given the cylon's are strongly rooted in the topic of AI and the idea of a technological singularity branches off of that topic, I believe it is more than reasonable to at least mention it in this article''.
:::::::On a side note, please let me know if I should take my defenses personally to each member that criticizes my contributions rather than posting them here, as this page might become quite lengthy. And again, if you just demand better writing or sourcing, tell me exactly how (or refer me to the relevant section in the FAQ) and I will consider writing the article myself.--[[User:DuMan|DuMan]] 19:21, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
::::::::It's not the sourcing to external sites that's the problem, but the sourcing with the show. See what Spence wrote below. If you can back it up with some references to the episodes and quotes, though they will probably be somewhat indirect, good. I'd suggest that you don't worry about style for now, but produce a bullet point list of references from the show itself. Put it on your user page or maybe your talk page. Then we can see if we can really use it. If not, then we can always put in a small note without the speculation attached.
::::::::While lengthy talk pages are problematic too, splitting over discussion in several talk is really confusing. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 04:52, 23 June 2007 (CDT)

:I'd write it up as a separate article, and attach the following template: <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:Plausible speculation|Plausible speculation]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki>,<strike> <nowiki>{{Essay}}</nowiki></strike>. There is precedent; see [[Cyrannus (system)]]. It is an example of plausible, researched, cited speculation, clearly marked as such, and is worthwhile. Failing that, there is always your User space. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 19:11, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
::I agree. The debate on Cyrannus is as close to the edge of fandom-derived speculation that I'd care to see on the wiki. DuMan's research may be enlightening. A few points: Yes, please do use the {{tl|plausible speculation}} tag on such an article. Also, in keeping with the wiki's mission, making this an essay is not recommended. But, using links and citations from the episodes, DuMan and others can add plausible support for the theories he expressed earlier, discarding or disputing what does not agree with the Cylons as portrayed. The FTL article, by the way (and in my opinion) is supported by the principles ''displayed'' in the episodes. While not explained, the process of moving from the place to place (without change in relative velocity before or after) screams "wormhole" and is supported by Ron Moore's [[naturalistic science fiction]] guideline, "no moving violations" on true-faster-than-light travel. I think DuMan has his work cut out for him in linking episode events that connect his research with the show, but it will fun to see him try, and should make for a very interesting article once it's ready. The links ''have'' to be there for this to be an acceptable article per the wiki's canonical or licensed product mission, IMO. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:53, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
::That might work, if there can be a few references to back it up somewhat. We could also put it in [[Cylon Religion]]. That one talks more about religion in general and does already have an analysis section. This speculation might be more justifiable there than here. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 04:52, 23 June 2007 (CDT)

==Image==
I was wondering if perhaps we should change what could be considered the "main image" for the promotional picutre in which Gaius is shown looking religious with Number Six at his back.
[[Image:Cylon God.jpg|thumb|250px]]
I feel like this might best represent the article, given the association both characters have with the Cylon God and the specific representation in the picture. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Number Six/Archive 1

2008-04-01T05:20:13Z

Sauron18: /*Main Image Revisited*/

==Another Number Six==

Wasn't there another Number Six encountered and killed by Starbuck in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]? --[[User:Blacklight|Blacklight]]

:There are many copies, of course, and because they are identical, it is impossible to know if a specific copy was killed. Six is everywhere! Best to mention the copy only when they do something distinctive or have a specific identity in an episode, such as Godfrey and Gina, or Baltar's Six. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:43, 1 October 2005 (EDT)

:Actually that was one of the "standard" "Caprican Overseer Models" as evidenced by her black jacket. ---Ricimer, 10 October, 2005

==Notes move==
Spencerian - I put the notes back in their old position based on the conversation Day and I had at [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters/Archive01#Layout in Humano-Cylon Articles]]. As I said there, there are many cases where notes, points of analysis, etc. may be applicable only to individual copies of a particular humano-cylon, or to the entire model line. If you disagree, please re-open the conversation on the [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters|Characters talk page]].--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:48, 10 October 2005 (EDT)

:Done. See the page. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:14, 10 October 2005 (EDT)

==The Many Deaths of Six==
Just having some fun on the talk page here; but it's fun to think of just how many times and ways Six has died (after seeing the part that said "copies have been destroyed in several episodes).
Number Six has been killed by methods including:
*Blown up by a Basestar that attacked Armistice Station.
*By broken glass from windows exploding inwards from the shockwave of a distant nuclear blast.
*Shot in the back by another humanoid Cylon, Caprica-Sharon.
*Pushed off of a ledge and impaled on debris by Starbuck.
*Brained over the head with a fire extinguisher by Starbuck. (not necessarily causing death)
*Vaporized by a detonating nuclear bomb she was sitting right next to.

To quote Third Rock From The Sun, "We just kept hitting it, and hitting it, but it ''just wouldn't die!''". --Ricimer, 10 October, 2005

:They Keep Killing Six. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:59, 3 March 2007 (CST)

: Was Six killed on the Arrow, or was she impaled on debris on the floor where they landed? I'm pretty sure it was NOT the Arrow...worth looking again. We don't know that the "extinguished" Six was killed, but she was certainly knocked out. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:26, 11 October 2005 (EDT)

:: She was not killed by the arrow at all. If you go back and look at the season finale, you will see that Six had a marine style "Ka-Bar" knife sticking out of her torso. IIRC, starbuck actually has the arrow in her hand. --Shogunmoon 12:45, 4 November 2005 (EST)

The Leobon and Doral general articles had the Death line filled. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:11, 7 march 2006 (EST)

== Baltar's Six ==

This is admittedly farfetched, but might it be possible that both Baltar and Caprica Six uploaded, at least partially, into each other's brain? In the series, it has been repeatedly stated that Cylon and Human physiology are nearly identical until you get down to the cells. Though Cylons have silica pathways in their brains, it might be possible they still store memories chemically (perhaps only digitizing them upon upload), using these pathways only for the digital transference of memory. So, if memories of both species are stored the same, then the very method of transmission Caprica Six used to upload her consciousness might have inadvertently brought along a bit of Gaius, while transmitting a bit of her into ''his'' mind. The cause for this transference might well be the nuclear blast that she blocked with her body. Adding plausibility to this theory is the fact that this time period is still vague, as well, as nothing is shown of how exactly her shielding of Baltar saved him so completely, that he emerges dazed but relatively intact near the raptor piloted by Sharon. Crazy sounding, I know, but I'd love to hear the other theories out there.
-- [[User:Ravriem|Ravriem]] 23:47, 12 March 2006 (CST)

That's actually possible- there's one flaw, though: if parts of themselves were uploaded into the other, why don't they behave like the originals? Baltar-Six behaves nothing like Caprica-Six, and her Baltar is fairly different from the original. [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 08:01, 13 March 2006 (EST)

Good point. My only explanation would be that the entire personality didn't get uploaded. Perhaps only a portion, with certain key information or memories from the real Baltar and Six, that becomes incorporated into the subconcious and becomes a sort of Freudian gateway to their own inner doubts and fears. Granted, this becomes rather convoluted, but it still remains the only way I can see for ''both'' of them to be having this phenomenom without either of them knowing how or why. --[[User:Ravriem|Ravriem]] 17:03, 13 March 2006 (CST)

I guess you're right- unless they descide to twist this into a Count Iblis/Ship of Lights arc, and Six is actually a demoness (would that make Baltar the angel?). I'm sorry to sound if I keep trying to burst your ballon, but why wouldn't Six have figured out that's how Gaius got in her head? She would probably know a fair amount the process if she intended to employ it. [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 07:39, 14 March 2006 (EST)

About shielding Baltar - I think perhaps the blast was quite far away, and she merely shielded him from the shattering glass of his windows. If this is the case, the circumstances of caprica-six's "death" are still wide open. --[[User:Mitchy|Mitchy]] 15:24, 14 March 2006 (CST)

This could lead us to a major debate: the glass was part of it, but so was the shockwave. Because Six has at least twice the strength of a normal human, she prevented Baltar from being thrown thrown through the wall and killed. The real mystery is what happened to her body... we should move this to the "Caprica-Six" talk page. [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 17:18, 14 March 2006 (EST)

One last note: so far as why she wouldn't know about it if she was the one who employed the method, I don't think she meant for it to happen, which is why she is so confused as well. Also, going to the blast, she seemed to have died instantly in the blast judging by her reaction at rebirth. If she were killed like that, how did she manage to stay upright to shield Baltar, anyway? And a shockwave of that force...I'm not a nuclear scientist, but wouldn't it still carry considerable radiation? The whole sequence is one of the most puzzling to me, so far...and I still believe that is the precise moment when this swapping of pseudo-personalities occurred.--[[User:Ravriem|Ravriem]] 00:34, 15 March 2006 (CST)

Well, it's definetly the most likely theory we've got so far. Again, we've got missing information (how far from Caprica City was Baltar's house, was is even near Caprica City? that might not have been a nuclear shockwave- even if it was, depending on distance, radiation would be negligible. Anyway, I think they want us to focus more on the question, "What the hell is Baltar-Six?" than "How EXACTLY did Caprica-Six die?" my policy is, if the actor doesn't obsess about it, fans shouldn't loss sleep over it. (Though making us wait till October is just plain sadistic- I'll have to move back to Britain this summer and see if SkyOne's airing them sooner...) :-P [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 07:43, 15 March 2006 (EST)

== Natasi? ==

I've heard that "Natasi" is the name used in the mini-series novilization. However has the name been used anywhere else other than that? If so, we should be careful in the name's use... Otherwise I would make a note of it in the "Notes" section, but wouldn't introduce the name into the main article... Comments, questions or concerns anyone? -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:04, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:The fact that somebody had to comment on how it was pronounced ("Carver stated that he pronounces "Natasi" as "Nuh-TAH-see", though fans could really pronounce it any way they want.") would lead me to believe that it hadn't been spoken onscreen. Otherwise, it would be pretty evident. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:13, 9 December 2005 (EST)

::I'm the one that originally reported this here (I asked the question on GalacticaStation), and ''I'' don't think we should put it EVERYWHERE. All I wanted was a little footnote at the end of the "Baltar's original Six" entry. I don't think it should be casually used to refer to her; it's just a fun anecdote. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:09, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::I don't mind using it where relevant (and cited), as long as nothing contradicts it. It stands to reason that Baltar didn't spend two years calling her "Hey you, with the platinum hair in the miniskirt." I wonder if "Epiphanies" will shed any light on this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:18, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::: I always figured he called her Sex-Bot 9000. ;) --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:03, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::According to James Callis in his Sci-Fi Magazine interview, what Baltar was initially calling her was something more like "Oh, gods! Oh...gods! Oh! My! GODS!" Seriously, however, since it appears in an official novelization, we could allow it, with suitable caveat that this is not aired content. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:10, 9 December 2005 (EST)

Merv, please explain your objection to this. I see no problem with the use of that term until it's explicitly contracted on-screen. Is this the case as of "Downloaded"? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:27, 24 February 2006 (EST)
:....I...did say, in the summary box on the dit; sorry, communication must remain short; just doing in im bursts at commercials more later.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:35, 24 February 2006 (EST)
::Kuralyov is explaining the situation to me on [[Talk:Caprica Six]].

==Gina's Rank on Pegasus==
Wouldn't it be fair to say that if Gina was eating in the same mess as Cain, that she was an officer? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:27, 7 January 2006 (EST)

:I got the idea that it was a communal mess that everyone ate in. Cain would have probably eaten with the crew to improve the loyalty and comraderie between herself and the crew. Gina was probably just a civilian draftee like [[Laird]] that probably lied her way onto the Pegasus, claiming to have skills good enough to get her off the doomed ship that she used to be on. But then again, if Gina was an officer on Pegasus, that would make the betrayal even deeper, leading to her extremely harsh punishment.--Ltcrashdown 02:32, 7 January 2006 (EST)
::According to the spoilers released before the episode, she was a civilian dockworker. The same spoilers mentioned Pegasus' unhooked computers as the reason it escaped the virus. Since that information is purported to be in the full-length Pegasus episode on the upcoming full-Season Two DVD, Gina's status may be on the DVD as well.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:07, 5 April 2006 (EST)

== Sara? ==

I am going back over the episodes to scan them for this, but I distinctly remember Baltar referring to Number Six as "Sara", and it appears clearly in the closed captioning/subtitles. Has anyone else caught this? --[[User:ThesposAZ|ThesposAZ]] 16:47, 15 January 2006 (EST)

:When? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:06, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::It's in Home, Part II, when Baltar's Six is telling him he's crazy. Right after she explains he created her when his mind snapped over the guilt of helping the Cylons massacre humanity. According to the subtitles, he replies, "Well, I don't know what game you're playing anymore. But I'm not playing this stupid game, Sara. Now you've had your fun." However, I don't think the subtitles are right. His mouth moves slightly into shadow during "Sara" but it looks and sounds more like he says "...this stupid game, so, uh, now you've had your fun". [[User:Emrys|Emrys]] 00:24, 14 August 2006 (CDT)

:::He does call her Sara in the subtitles. Not sure why. It might be a typo mistake in the subtitles or something because it sounds like he ends the sentence with "so... uhh" not "Sara". Can anyone confirm the name? [[User:CylonSpy|CylonSpy]] 19:12, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
::::It's a mistake. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 21:37, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

== Shelly Godfrey ==

According to http://german.about.com/library/blvornamen05.htm the name "Godfrey" is listed as English related to Old German "Gottfried", meaning "God's peace". I wasn't certain how acceptible this was as a source, so I didn't make an edit, but I thought I would at least leave an answer for the Citation Jihad. --[[User:Corvus|Corvus]] 07:26, 26 January 2006 (EST)

Why has the link to the Shelly article been removed from this page?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:49, 7 April 2006 (EST)
::You yourself personally deleted it on March 20. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:53, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::I did no such thing! --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 0:07, 8 April 2006 (EST)

==Caprica Six Separation?==

I think it may be time to give Caprica Six her own article, since her character is even more developed than Shelley Godfrey or Gina who have their own. We now know more about her fate. We should, however, leave Mental Six in this article, with the standard sixes, or perhaps open a new article called "Cylon Related Hallucinations" which might include The Mentals (Six and Baltar) and all hallucinations related to them.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 25 February 2006
:I created the Hallucinations article, it has a copy of all the text in the Internal-Six section. Should we now turn that section into a link to the article?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:45, 14 March 2006 (EST)

== Pics ==

This article has a ''lot'' of pictures. I'm concerned that this may make it difficult for users with low bandwidth to view this page. I'm also concerned that it could be pushing the boundaries of "fair use". I'm ''also'' concerned that it looks cluttered. I have my settings so allow 300px width on non-width-specified thumbnails in articles. This makes many of the images push the text into a very narrow column in the center. I think part of this, at least, is due to the aspect ratios. I really, really support the idea that, aside from template pics (character or ship, etc.) or pics included to demonstrate some detail (like rank insignia or whatever), we should try to have all other pictures be non-cropped wide-screen formatted snaps directly from the show. I kind of wish you could make the settings control make whatever the longest dimension of an image is be 300px, rather than simply controlling the width. Alas, this isn't how it works. Anyway... I think we either need to remove pics to unclutter this page and/or get full-screen shots for all these images. What do others think? --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 23:31, 4 June 2006 (CDT)
:I added all the pictures in order to brighten up the article. I didn't know that the amount of pictures can interfere with viewing. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:53, 6 June 2006 (CDT)
::Pictures make a picture friendly, removing them would make the article seem too mechanical. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:07 June 06 2006

::: There ''is'' such a thing as too many pictures. We should talk about how many is too many. However, this should probably be discussed on S&C. I'll bring it up when I get back into town (Monday or so) if no one else has by then. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 23:29, 6 June 2006 (CDT)
: I concur with Day. I think that we either need to figure out which pictures we need to remove from the page, or reduce the width of the images themselves. (At a higher resolution, the article doesn't flow well.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:01, 7 June 2006 (CDT)
::I've already removed the pictures that Day was talking about. The situation is resolved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:55, 8 June 2006 (CDT)

==Main Image==
I was thinking about this article a while back and then realized something, that while the main image is perfect, it doesn't really illustrate a "Number Six" Cylon, it is, after all, Baltar's Mental Six. Now, this wouldn't matter too much if all the Six looked like her, but then I realize that they don't, not one Six other than Baltar's imaginary one goes around dressed like a Supermodel, they've all got unsuggestive clothing and don't have the great variety of outfits the other one has.

So I was thinking if anyone else thought it might be idea if we try to find a relatively good counterpart for a main picture, that really illustrates how the standard Number Six Cylon is (Normally Pants-Shirt-Jacket). I know it may seem picky, but when you really think about it, Sixes don't walk around like models all the time (in fact rarely). I'll try to find some good candidates, but I also wanted peoples' opinion on this matter.

PS: If we do decide to change it, but don't find any candidates, we could simply wait for Season 3 Promotional Photography, since they're more than likely to include a Standard Looking Six. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 18:21, 6 July 2006 (CDT)

:Well I think we should keep the main one we're using now, as it's one of the promotional images the official site uses alot when they say "This is Number Six", so it's kind of generic and they think so. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:52, 6 July 2006 (CDT)

::I know, and the perfect one will probably come along when the Season 3 batch comes out, but it's sort of like with the Number 8 article, we don't just put Sharon there, we tried to find the most common trend in the model and illustrate it with a good image. Sometimes it doesn't matter, since the 1 Cylon we've seen is exactly like the others (Doral, Cavil, Leoben, etc...) but for a Six, which is a model described as "hard core" by the Cylons themeselves, the picture of a seductress in an elegant dress doesn't exactly illustrate the generic model.

I'm just pointing it out, and trying to find a good generic Six, but it won't be perfect until the new batch comes. -- [[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:38, 6 July 2006 (CDT)

Now that the Season 3 Promotional Photos have been released, I believe there is a very good picture that better illustrates the Number Six:

[[Image:NumSix.jpg|thumb|center]]

What do you think? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:39, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
:Nice. Maybe we should just do this for every one... umm.. no spoilers are really spoiled so I don't see why not. Any other comments on this? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:49, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
::Well then, I shall place it as such. I also updated Caprica Sharon's Page, since we got her first Promo Image. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 00:02, 30 August 2006 (CDT)

I wanted to point out that a new image of Number Six has been revealed in very high resolution here [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000hf8ky/g186]. Nonetheless, I vote that we keep the current one, not only because it is a better pose but because it is conveys the overall character of the entire model a lot more than the other one.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 18:37, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
:We have just about all of the Season 3 promo shots from there here in Shane's gallery at the media BSwiki. I should know, I uploaded them :). They are 25% size to keep the size down but are still high res. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:17, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
::Not all of them, there are a bunch of portraits that are not there. Anyways, the Six portrait I'm talking about was released either today or yesterday, and it's good, but I am putting this notice that despite it being good, the current image is better for this article. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:23, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
:::Yeah, I like the one here, it fits well and looks good. I vote we keep it. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:28, 24 September 2006 (CDT)

What I did was, I put that image on the Caprica-Six article, as I think that image was more representative of Caprica-Six than Number Six as a whole. --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 20:55, 29 September 2006 (CDT)
*Actually it is quite more representative of the Model than it is of the specific Caprica-Six. The Pose and Costume convey the simplicity and agressiveness of the Sixes, they are militaristic, strong and beautiful. The other picture, the one of Baltar's Phantom Six is really not a good representation of the Sixes, despite being a good picture in itself (as I had said a few months back), and I believe that the Standard Six is very well represented by the current image. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 02:42, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

:What about [http://galactica.emedian.net/gallery/s3/th/imagepages/image3.html this image]?--[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 13:11, 30 September 2006 (CDT)
::Look at the last point I made (right above our discussion) ;) It's the same problem: Though it's a great image, and a great representation of Mental Six, it isn't a fair representation of the model, which has constantly proven itself to be a lot more different than Baltar's illusion. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:19, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

== Greek Astrology with personality types ==

does anyone know if there is any connection between the numbers of the cylon agents, and the numbers that certain astrological signs represent (i.e. six represents virgo). Because if the cylons only had "the scriptures" to base the personalities on, then the personalities and traits of various astrological signs may be relivant.
i dont know anything about astrology though [[User:Acitcratna|Acitcratna]] 00:40, 06 October 2006 (AWST)

:Well, RDM has stated that the 12 models are based uponn archetypes of humanity. It's like the Cylons looked at humanity and said "Well, if you break it down, there're really only 12 of you, and these are them." --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 11:15, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
::By astrological logic, [[Three]] would be [[The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29#Gemenon|Gemini]], [[Five]] would be [[The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29#Leonis|Leo]], [[Six]] would be [[The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29#Virgon|Virgo]], and [[Eight]] would be [[The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29#Scorpia|Scorpio]], but I don't think their personalities really fit with that. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:22, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
:::well, Three is kind of supported by: "Using their communicative skills, Geminis adapt to any situation they encounter. Geminis have clever tongues and develop an amazing ability to obscure the facts with stimulating and imaginative chatter." (Being a reporter and all), and valerii is kind of supported by: "Scorpios stubbornly cling to emotional attachments. They rarely forget or forgive emotional rejection." (falling in love), but i dont think ive seen six's: To deflect attention away from themselves, Virgos will also focus on other people by praising their talents and virtues, or by criticizing faulty behavior or personal imperfection."... emphasis on kind of[[User:Acitcratna|Acitcratna]] 00:50, 06 October 2006 (AWST)
::::[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Here's the interview quote I was looking for.]] --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 11:36, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
== Raven-haired Six ==
I'm surprised there isn't an entry for "Raven-haired Six". --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:41, 9 November 2006 (CST)
:Well, all she did was explain stuff and die, nothing major as far as character is concerned. We could, however, mention that Cylons don't always keep the same type of hair, as we now have 2 examples where they died their hair different. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:49, 9 November 2006 (CST)

==Public Face==

Should it be mentioned that for viewers at least, Number Six is something like the public representation of what a Cylon Agent is? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 15:28, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Pic of Six beating Sharon. ==

Should we perhaps exchange that pic of Six kicking the crap out of Sharon? The only reason I'm saying this is because the background is clearly not part of the set. You can see a crew member's chair and some scaffolding......haha...-- Helo87

==Main Image Revisited==
Although I absolutely love the season 4 promotional photography, and I think it's certainly the batch of pictures in which she has looked the best, I'm not so sure that the Six shown accurately portrays the model itself.

My suggestion would be that we use the picture currently in use as the one for Head Six's section in "Virtual Beings", while we leave the picture that was previously there as the main image.

This is mainly because we've never really seen an Six actually wearing that dress, so unless we get other pictures with a more accurate costume I'd suggest we leave the Season 3 promotional crop. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 05:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

First Hybrid

2007-12-12T22:16:17Z

Sauron18: I think this is the image you meant

{{Character Data
|photo=First Hybrid.jpg
|age=
|colony=
|birthname=
|callsign=
|seen=Razor
|death=Razor
|parents=
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status=
|role= [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]] central computer
|rank=
|actor= [[Campbell Lane]]
|cylon=
|name=
}}
The '''First Hybrid''' was the prototype of the [[Hybrid]]s, entities that represent the first step in the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] evolution from pure machines to organic beings.

There are references in the Cylon databases to this prototype as a failed experiment which may still exist. [[William Adama]] encountered what appears to be this hybrid near the end of the first Cylon War, who is able to place a [[projection]] into Adama's mind, and repeats the mantra that "all this has happened before..."

Much later, [[Kendra Shaw]] encounters this hybrid on a base ship crewed by a faction of [[Cylon Centurion Model 0005]] units known as Guardians. Unlike the later version Hybrids, this one speaks coherently in the voice of an old man. He says to her: "What am I? A man? Or am I a machine? My children believe I am their god," and demonstrates prophetic knowledge about Shaw and [[Kara Thrace]]. In particular, he warns Shaw that Thrace is the herald of the apocalypse and must not be followed by the Colonials, though jamming prevents her from relaying all of this message to ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''. The first Hybrid seems to be far more lucid than the newer Hybrids.
[[Image:FirstHybrid.jpg|thumb|left|The Hybrid aboard his Base Ship ([[Razor]]).]]

The Hybrid declares that after his destruction his existence will "begin again in ways uncertain," which may suggest an ability to [[download]]. Shaw detonates an explosive device aboard the [[Guardian basestar|basestar]], killing herself and this instance of the first Hybrid ([[Razor]]).

Although this Hybrid possesses the same metaphysical perception as its descendants, it is considerably more lucid. Like the modern Hybrids, the First Hybrid functions as the central computer of its basestar, but it also appears to act as the basestar's command and control, given the absence of modern humanoid Cylons aboard.

== See also ==
*[[Hybrid utterances]]

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

First Hybrid

2007-12-12T21:40:13Z

Sauron18: Added Other Image

{{Character Data
|photo=FH.jpg
|age=
|colony=
|birthname=
|callsign=
|seen=Razor
|death=Razor
|parents=
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status=
|role= [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]] central computer
|rank=
|actor= [[Campbell Lane]]
|cylon=
|name=
}}
The '''First Hybrid''' was the prototype of the [[Hybrid]]s, entities that represent the first step in the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] evolution from pure machines to organic beings.

There are references in the Cylon databases to this prototype as a failed experiment which may still exist. [[William Adama]] encountered what appears to be this hybrid near the end of the first Cylon War, who is able to place a [[projection]] into Adama's mind, and repeats the mantra that "all this has happened before..."

Much later, [[Kendra Shaw]] encounters this hybrid on a base ship crewed by a faction of [[Cylon Centurion Model 0005]] units known as Guardians. Unlike the later version Hybrids, this one speaks coherently in the voice of an old man. He says to her: "What am I? A man? Or am I a machine? My children believe I am their god," and demonstrates prophetic knowledge about Shaw and [[Kara Thrace]]. In particular, he warns Shaw that Thrace is the herald of the apocalypse and must not be followed by the Colonials, though jamming prevents her from relaying all of this message to ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''. The first Hybrid seems to be far more lucid than the newer Hybrids.
[[Image:First Hybrid.jpg|thumb|left|The Hybrid aboard his Base Ship ([[Razor]]).]]

The Hybrid declares that after his destruction his existence will "begin again in ways uncertain," which may suggest an ability to [[download]]. Shaw detonates an explosive device aboard the [[Guardian basestar|basestar]], killing herself and this instance of the first Hybrid ([[Razor]]).

Although this Hybrid possesses the same metaphysical perception as its descendants, it is considerably more lucid. Like the modern Hybrids, the First Hybrid functions as the central computer of its basestar, but it also appears to act as the basestar's command and control, given the absence of modern humanoid Cylons aboard.

== See also ==
*[[Hybrid utterances]]

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

First Hybrid

2007-12-12T21:34:09Z

Sauron18: Added Image

{{Character Data
|photo=FH.jpg
|age=
|colony=
|birthname=
|callsign=
|seen=Razor
|death=Razor
|parents=
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status=
|role= [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]] central computer
|rank=
|actor= [[Campbell Lane]]
|cylon=
|name=
}}
The '''First Hybrid''' was the prototype of the [[Hybrid]]s, entities that represent the first step in the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] evolution from pure machines to organic beings.

There are references in the Cylon databases to this prototype as a failed experiment which may still exist. [[William Adama]] encountered what appears to be this hybrid near the end of the first Cylon War, who is able to place a [[projection]] into Adama's mind, and repeats the mantra that "all this has happened before..."

Much later, [[Kendra Shaw]] encounters this hybrid on a base ship crewed by a faction of [[Cylon Centurion Model 0005]] units known as Guardians. Unlike the later version Hybrids, this one speaks coherently in the voice of an old man. He says to her: "What am I? A man? Or am I a machine? My children believe I am their god," and demonstrates prophetic knowledge about Shaw and [[Kara Thrace]]. In particular, he warns Shaw that Thrace is the herald of the apocalypse and must not be followed by the Colonials, though jamming prevents her from relaying all of this message to ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''. The first Hybrid seems to be far more lucid than the newer Hybrids.

The Hybrid declares that after his destruction his existence will "begin again in ways uncertain," which may suggest an ability to [[download]]. Shaw detonates an explosive device aboard the [[Guardian basestar|basestar]], killing herself and this instance of the first Hybrid ([[Razor]]).

Although this Hybrid possesses the same metaphysical perception as its descendants, it is considerably more lucid. Like the modern Hybrids, the First Hybrid functions as the central computer of its basestar, but it also appears to act as the basestar's command and control, given the absence of modern humanoid Cylons aboard.

== See also ==
*[[Hybrid utterances]]

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Cylon Centurion Model 0005

2007-12-12T02:54:32Z

Sauron18:

:''This article discusses the robotic Cylons seen in the [[Cylon War]] of the [[Re-imagined Series]]. For information on the robotic Centurions from the [[Original Series]], see [[Centurion (TOS)]]. For information on the advanced successor to Model 0005, see [[Cylon Centurion]].''

[[Image:Cent 005.jpg|thumb|250px|Cylon Centurion during the First Cylon War ([[Razor]]).]]

The '''original Cylon Centurion'''<ref>This model is identical in appearance to the [[Original Series]] version of the [[Centurion (TOS)|Centurion]] as an [[w:homage|homage]] to the original characters. This version appears only as a [[Galactica Museum|museum copy]] and in "[[Razor]]".</ref>, created and designed by scientists of the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies of Kobol]], is a model of [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] used in various heavy to light labor and military applications.<ref>Some information was gleaned from the paperwork on the [[Cimtar Peace Accord]] reviewed by the [[Armistice Officer]] in the [[Miniseries]].</ref> Before the [[Cylon War]], the model earned the nickname of "walking chrome [[toaster]]s" due to their physical appearance ([[Miniseries]]).

== Design ==
The original Model 0005 are bipedal [[w:android|androids]]. Physically stronger than a human, the Model 0005 is designed with sufficient dexterity for using weapons as well as tools, and possess retractable blades in its left forearm.

This model averages 6-foot, 6-inches in height and is silver chrome in color. It is neither a fast model nor extremely efficient, due to its bulk. Its iconic feature is the one Cylon "eye" that glows red and pulsates back and forth in a visor-like slot.

A gold-colored Centurion resembling the [[Command Centurion]]s of the original series is seen in "Razor". It is not known if this Centurion is a 0005 or a separate model.

==Demeanor==

The Colonial-designed Centurion used [[Silica pathways|artificial intelligence]], and was designed as sentient.<ref>[[William Adama]] and [[Sharon Agathon]] confirm this point in season 3 episodes that explain why the advanced successors to the Model 0005 are not sentient: To prevent an intra-Cylon uprising between the [[humanoid Cylon]]s and their creations.</ref>

[[Image:Razor Flashback 4.jpg|thumb|right|Centurion aiming its gun in free fall ([[Razor Flashbacks]]).]]
Sometime, 52 years prior to the Fall of the Colonies, the Model 0005 rebels against humanity. For twelve years, the [[Cylon War]] pits the Colonial's constructs against them. Eventually, these models accept an [[Cimtar (RDM)|armistice]] and leave the Colonies to form their own homeworld.

[[Saul Tigh]], a veteran of the Cylon War, recalls the Cylon boarding of the ''[[Brenik]]'', and how he could sense the hatred that the Cylons had for humanity, despite the physical inability for the Cylons to show emotion on their faces (deleted scene from "[[Scattered]]"). This reflection of animosity and intensity is also apparent in the stylized [[Monclair]] painting in [[William Adama]]'s quarters, which shows Model 0005s fighting using relatively primitive weapons.

Before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|second]] Cylon conflict, this original Cylon model was the only Cylon design confirmed to be known to the Colonials. With the destruction of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol, the Model 0005 is apparently no longer in use, as the Cylons have evolved themselves to the enhanced, agile, non-sentient [[Cylon Centurion|Centurion version]] and the sentient [[humanoid Cylon]]s.

Unlike the modern Centurions, the old Centurions speak among each other to give and acknowledge orders. In addition, they use the phrase "[[By your command]]" when issued an order by a superior Centurion <ref>The three Centurions flying an old Raider is a direct copy of many similar scenes in the Original Series and the biggest homage to it so far.</ref> ([[Razor]]).

== Guardians ==

The Guardians are a group of original Centurions who somehow escaped from being scrapped when the newer [[Humanoid Cylon|humanoid models]] replaced the sentient Centurions with their non-sentient successors. They still use [[Cylon Raider (RDM)|Raiders]] from the First Cylon War and appear to operate entirely from a [[Guardian basestar|single basestar]], a model which represents an intermediate between the Cylon-war era and current design. Their existence is somewhat of a Cylon legend, suggesting they have no contact with the modern Cylons.

The Centurions guard the [[First Hybrid|original Hybrid]], who is still alive over 40 years after its creation. They seek to further their evolution, and to this end they capture and experiment upon a human civilian science team from ''Galactica''. This triggers a [[Battle of the Guardian basestar|battle]] in which the Guardians' basestar and the Hybrid are destroyed ([[Razor]]). It is unknown whether all of the Centurions are aboard the basestar when it is destroyed.

== Connection to the Original Series ==
[[Image:Cylon_centurion_model_0005.jpg|thumb|[[Armistice Officer]]'s paper work on the original Cylon Centurion model. ([[Miniseries]])]]

The readable text of the [[Armistice Officer|Armistice Officer's]] Cylon Specifications sheet shows:

:'' <center>CYLON SPECIFICATIONS</center>''
:'' <center>Cylon Centurian <ref>There is some debate among fans regarding the canonical spelling of this model's name. [[Wikipedia:Centurion (Roman army)|Centurion]]s were professional officers of the Roman Army, and are widely acknowledged as the basis of the Cylon name. Some official material, such as the on-screen appearance of the Armistice Officer's datasheet and the packaging of the original Mattel action figures, used the spelling "Centurian." For the purposes of this wiki, the spelling "Centurion" is used throughout.</ref>[sic] Model 0005</center>''
: ''The Cylon:

<blockquote>''A Cylon is a bipedal robot. They are self-aware, and usually quite logical. They are not especially fast, but they are quite strong. They are artificial in nature, and are larger than a human, around 6' 6" (2m), although this varies with their type. Cylon eyes glow red, and pulse back and forth. A Cylon is powered by internal powercells which allow it to function without outside aid for around nine to ten [[yahren]]s.<ref>A [[Continuity errors (RDM)|continuity error or gaffe]] appears in the Armistice Officer's documents with the use of the word "yahren" (an Original Series measure of a year).</ref>''</blockquote>

== Related imagery ==

<gallery>
Image:Centurion POV.jpg|A view of the world as seen by a Centurion ([[Razor Flashbacks]]).
Image:Centurion_armor_old.jpg|Cylon Centurion (Armor) on display ([[Miniseries]]).
</gallery>

==Notes==

*A Centurion in the [[Razor Flashbacks]] moves with more agility and speed than its Original Series counterparts and uses a [[Weapons in the Re-imagined Series#Handheld_weapons|projectile weapon]] instead of a [[laser pistol]].

*A built-in switchblade knife is part of the left hand/forearm. The blade is approximately 8 inches long and is used in close combat ([[Razor Flashbacks]]).

*In a scene in the [[Miniseries]], some children can be seen running around in costumes which are patterned after this model.

*The typical catchphrase of the Cylons in both series is the iconic statement "[[By your command]]."

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:RDM]]

[[de:Zenturier Modell 0005]]

Cylon Centurion Model 0005

2007-12-12T02:51:25Z

Sauron18: Added Image, Moved Another

:''This article discusses the robotic Cylons seen in the [[Cylon War]] of the [[Re-imagined Series]]. For information on the robotic Centurions from the [[Original Series]], see [[Centurion (TOS)]]. For information on the advanced successor to Model 0005, see [[Cylon Centurion]].''

[[Image:Cent 005.jpg|thumb|Cylon Centurion during the First Cylon War ([[Razor]]).]]

The '''original Cylon Centurion'''<ref>This model is identical in appearance to the [[Original Series]] version of the [[Centurion (TOS)|Centurion]] as an [[w:homage|homage]] to the original characters. This version appears only as a [[Galactica Museum|museum copy]] and in "[[Razor]]".</ref>, created and designed by scientists of the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies of Kobol]], is a model of [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] used in various heavy to light labor and military applications.<ref>Some information was gleaned from the paperwork on the [[Cimtar Peace Accord]] reviewed by the [[Armistice Officer]] in the [[Miniseries]].</ref> Before the [[Cylon War]], the model earned the nickname of "walking chrome [[toaster]]s" due to their physical appearance ([[Miniseries]]).

== Design ==
The original Model 0005 are bipedal [[w:android|androids]]. Physically stronger than a human, the Model 0005 is designed with sufficient dexterity for using weapons as well as tools, and possess retractable blades in its left forearm.

This model averages 6-foot, 6-inches in height and is silver chrome in color. It is neither a fast model nor extremely efficient, due to its bulk. Its iconic feature is the one Cylon "eye" that glows red and pulsates back and forth in a visor-like slot.

A gold-colored Centurion resembling the [[Command Centurion]]s of the original series is seen in "Razor". It is not known if this Centurion is a 0005 or a separate model.

==Demeanor==

The Colonial-designed Centurion used [[Silica pathways|artificial intelligence]], and was designed as sentient.<ref>[[William Adama]] and [[Sharon Agathon]] confirm this point in season 3 episodes that explain why the advanced successors to the Model 0005 are not sentient: To prevent an intra-Cylon uprising between the [[humanoid Cylon]]s and their creations.</ref>

[[Image:Razor Flashback 4.jpg|thumb|right|Centurion aiming its gun in free fall ([[Razor Flashbacks]]).]]
Sometime, 52 years prior to the Fall of the Colonies, the Model 0005 rebels against humanity. For twelve years, the [[Cylon War]] pits the Colonial's constructs against them. Eventually, these models accept an [[Cimtar (RDM)|armistice]] and leave the Colonies to form their own homeworld.

[[Saul Tigh]], a veteran of the Cylon War, recalls the Cylon boarding of the ''[[Brenik]]'', and how he could sense the hatred that the Cylons had for humanity, despite the physical inability for the Cylons to show emotion on their faces (deleted scene from "[[Scattered]]"). This reflection of animosity and intensity is also apparent in the stylized [[Monclair]] painting in [[William Adama]]'s quarters, which shows Model 0005s fighting using relatively primitive weapons.

Before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|second]] Cylon conflict, this original Cylon model was the only Cylon design confirmed to be known to the Colonials. With the destruction of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol, the Model 0005 is apparently no longer in use, as the Cylons have evolved themselves to the enhanced, agile, non-sentient [[Cylon Centurion|Centurion version]] and the sentient [[humanoid Cylon]]s.

Unlike the modern Centurions, the old Centurions speak among each other to give and acknowledge orders. In addition, they use the phrase "[[By your command]]" when issued an order by a superior Centurion <ref>The three Centurions flying an old Raider is a direct copy of many similar scenes in the Original Series and the biggest homage to it so far.</ref> ([[Razor]]).

== Guardians ==

The Guardians are a group of original Centurions who somehow escaped from being scrapped when the newer [[Humanoid Cylon|humanoid models]] replaced the sentient Centurions with their non-sentient successors. They still use [[Cylon Raider (RDM)|Raiders]] from the First Cylon War and appear to operate entirely from a [[Guardian basestar|single basestar]], a model which represents an intermediate between the Cylon-war era and current design. Their existence is somewhat of a Cylon legend, suggesting they have no contact with the modern Cylons.

The Centurions guard the [[First Hybrid|original Hybrid]], who is still alive over 40 years after its creation. They seek to further their evolution, and to this end they capture and experiment upon a human civilian science team from ''Galactica''. This triggers a [[Battle of the Guardian basestar|battle]] in which the Guardians' basestar and the Hybrid are destroyed ([[Razor]]). It is unknown whether all of the Centurions are aboard the basestar when it is destroyed.

== Connection to the Original Series ==
[[Image:Cylon_centurion_model_0005.jpg|thumb|[[Armistice Officer]]'s paper work on the original Cylon Centurion model. ([[Miniseries]])]]

The readable text of the [[Armistice Officer|Armistice Officer's]] Cylon Specifications sheet shows:

:'' <center>CYLON SPECIFICATIONS</center>''
:'' <center>Cylon Centurian <ref>There is some debate among fans regarding the canonical spelling of this model's name. [[Wikipedia:Centurion (Roman army)|Centurion]]s were professional officers of the Roman Army, and are widely acknowledged as the basis of the Cylon name. Some official material, such as the on-screen appearance of the Armistice Officer's datasheet and the packaging of the original Mattel action figures, used the spelling "Centurian." For the purposes of this wiki, the spelling "Centurion" is used throughout.</ref>[sic] Model 0005</center>''
: ''The Cylon:

<blockquote>''A Cylon is a bipedal robot. They are self-aware, and usually quite logical. They are not especially fast, but they are quite strong. They are artificial in nature, and are larger than a human, around 6' 6" (2m), although this varies with their type. Cylon eyes glow red, and pulse back and forth. A Cylon is powered by internal powercells which allow it to function without outside aid for around nine to ten [[yahren]]s.<ref>A [[Continuity errors (RDM)|continuity error or gaffe]] appears in the Armistice Officer's documents with the use of the word "yahren" (an Original Series measure of a year).</ref>''</blockquote>

== Related imagery ==

<gallery>
Image:Centurion POV.jpg|A view of the world as seen by a Centurion ([[Razor Flashbacks]]).
Image:Centurion_armor_old.jpg|Cylon Centurion (Armor) on display ([[Miniseries]]).
</gallery>

==Notes==

*A Centurion in the [[Razor Flashbacks]] moves with more agility and speed than its Original Series counterparts and uses a [[Weapons in the Re-imagined Series#Handheld_weapons|projectile weapon]] instead of a [[laser pistol]].

*A built-in switchblade knife is part of the left hand/forearm. The blade is approximately 8 inches long and is used in close combat ([[Razor Flashbacks]]).

*In a scene in the [[Miniseries]], some children can be seen running around in costumes which are patterned after this model.

*The typical catchphrase of the Cylons in both series is the iconic statement "[[By your command]]."

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:RDM]]

[[de:Zenturier Modell 0005]]

Talk:Cylon Centurion/Archive 1

2007-10-17T21:02:32Z

Sauron18: /*Knowledge of the Five*/

The stub calls the Warrior an "upgrade" of the old chrome toaster.
Given what we have seen of the inside of the BaseStar and Starbuck's Raider, isn't it likely that the Warrior is a product of the semi-organic line of Cylons?

The Warrior is, at best, the conceptual and functional sucessor to the old Centurion. A similar relationship might be found between the the M-4 Sherman tanke of World War II and the M-1A2 Abrams tank of today. Both machines do the same job, have many analogous features, but the only contributions the Sherman made to the development of the Abrams were its flaws.

Nick Kuzmik

: Actually, given that we never saw any organic matter come out of a shot Cylon Warrior, we can assume it is more robotic than organic. Obviously, this has not been stated overtly, so it is still conjecture. Therefore, it is possible that the Cylon Warrior is an "evolutionary" step to an organic-like Cylon (one with more fluid movement and flexibility) using non-organic materials. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe.Beaudoin]] (not logged in)

We need a better pic, like one from the miniseries or "33".--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:03, 24 February 2006 (EST)

== Deployed Greatly ==

What does "However, when Centurions are deployed greatly, they are deployed in huge numbers." mean? I'd delete it outright, but someone just added it, so I'd feel bad. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 13:56, 1 April 2006 (CST)

:I have no such compunction. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:09, 1 April 2006 (CST)

Bigger problem: what's with that ''entire'' paragraph? How do we *know* they weren't deployed in large numbers on the ground to mop up colonial units after the intial attacks? I always assumed they were, just off screen.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:46, 1 April 2006 (CST)

<blockquote>The Cylon Centurions may also have different armors. For instance, a small number of them wreaked havoc when boarding Galactica, and could only be destroyed using explosive rounds (Valley of Darkness). </blockquote>
Other than their resistance to small arms fire, there was no indication that the Centurion boarding party comprised an up-armored model, although that would not be a bad a idea considering the close and nasty fighting they could anticipate.

Comparison of the images on the Centurion page <ref>http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Cylon_Centurion_New_001.jpg</ref> and <ref>http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Centz.jpg</ref> does show evidence of modified armor. Furthermore, additional armor would reduce speed and manuverability, which creates a contradiction, as the attack on Galactica is when the Centurions were at their most nimble. I propose that this is not a matter of Cylon armor, but of Colonial ammo.

Its been a while... that and I don't own any of the DVD's so somebody has to help me out here...
But Helo and Boomer's "kills" on Caprica are suspect because the Cylons were playing with him. Did we ever confirm the destruction of a Centrion via Colonial Fleet sidearm fire? Or did they just fall down and play dead after getting hit with lead spitballs?

On Kobol, again, I don't recal any confirmed pistol kills, we did see some probable rifle kills. But a rifle with full metal jacket, ball round; heck, if I'm fighting Cylons, all I'm bringing is armor-piercing; is a very different catridge from a pistol round. By way of example, fire a full metal jacket, 9 mm Parabellum from a HK P9 pistol. Now fire that same round from an HK MP5. The MP5 will have higher muzzle velocity, longer range, greater accuracy, and greater penetration. Changed that to a necked-down micro-caliber, and a service rifle could concievably take out Centurions with the right ammo.

Which brings us to the question: "Why didn't they have the good bullets on Galactica?" Sean Connery said it oh so well in Hunt For Red October, "Most of the things in here don't react too well to bullets."
Shipboard security is probably issued some time of frangible round that won't over penetrate, and won't richocet too much. That also means it is pretty much uselless against armor. The limited stockpile of explosive rounds are there "just in case" they need to penetrate some armor, but the dedicated armor piercing ammo is probably stored somewhere that was not conveniently accessible.

With regards to the Cylons varried speed and intelligence, I still think that the Centurions are like the Raiders, crunchy on the outside, chewy on the inside. Its also possible that the team sent to board Galactica was a group of elites. Older, more experiences, better trained. Kind of like Scar in a way...

[[User:Grimlock|Grimlock]] 20:24, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:You make some good speculative points based on episode history. You might want to review the article to see where you can add these questions you bring up as references or in the notes section of the article, as appropriate. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:29, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

:That centurions come equipped with different armor was mentioned by Bradley Thompson in the BW:OC. They are neither organic nor sentient though. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:06, 16 October 2006 (CDT)
:Yeah, I noticed the stuff about the non-sentient, non-organic stuff shortly after writing all that. I guess the if its an official source we have to accept the assorted armor thing. Though it begs the question, why not use the beefy ones more often?
[[User:Grimlock|Grimlock]] 23:19, 16 October 2006 (CDT)
:: The Cylons are practical beings, who are limited by the amount of natural resources at their disposal. It follows that they may not need to upgrade Centurions ''en masse'' since it's not the most practical thing to do. As Six mentions in the Miniseries, they still have the old "walking chrome toaster" models around, since they have their uses. Or they may simply be limited by said resources at their disposal. After all, you don't need a heavily armored Cylon to plant tress now, do you? In addition to that question, bear in mind that Centurions also double as manual labor -- heavier armor detracts their effectiveness, even if they are machines. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 07:48, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

== Armor Hood ==
More a question of curiosity then anything else, but while I was looking at some of the pictures (especially the ones from the miniseries and those from season 3) I noticed the metal "hood" the Centurions have that covers the back of their head seems to vary in sizes. In the miniseries and the full body picture in the wiki, the hood seems to rise higher then the top of the cylon's head. But in other [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Centz.jpg shots], such as those of the Centurion garding Baltar in Collaborators, the hood seems noticeably smaller. I'm wondering if its a change in design or simply due to the positioning of the Cylon's head. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 22:40, 30 October 2006 (CST)
:It's just the positioning, the Centurions have looked the same throughought the whole series, if only looking a bit taller....but they're probably the same height too. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:51, 30 October 2006 (CST)

== Downloads and Centurions ==

We've already established that Centurions are just 'bots. No organics, presumably no downloading. While Athena may have provided the reasoning behind that, there is a good reason not to limit the Centurions that way. The best example is Scar. He was experienced, wily, and very lethal.

Now imagine how the events in Valley Darkness could have gone if there was one centurion on each team that had 1/3 of that skill and experience. I'm not saying the Centurions can't learn... but if they can learn and benefit from experience, are they smart enough to rebel later?

The smart move would be to build a Centurion around the CNS of a skin job and just download into a "combat" body when needed. But this doesn't seem possible. Recall tha tCavil had to scratch open his carotid artery with and empty shell casin.

Not sure where I'm going here but something is bugging me
[[User:Grimlock|Grimlock]] 13:03, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Slur/nickname sources ==
It'd look great if we could track down the episodes where the "bullethead", etc., euphemisms are used and cite them using ref tags (so that we'd actually have a references section). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:21, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
:I added them directly into the article, but they are in order. Should be their first appearances, but "bullethead" and" "chrome job" have been used on other occasions too I think --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:16, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

== Height ==
Guys, how tall are Centurions? Majestic's 12-inch figure is really 13.5' (1:6) which would translate into a real-life height of 6'9' '. Others say it's more like seven or even eight feet. What do you think? -- [[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 09:02, 23 September 2007 (CDT)

==Knowledge of the Five==
There's a line in the article which I feel we should perhaps remove-

:'''''"As with the Seven humanoids, the identities of the "Final Five" Cylons are not known to Centurions, as several soldiers have fired on these people before, notably Samuel Anders."'''''

I think this mainly because it's not a fact, and the fact is that for all we know they haven't been shooting at Anders but at his resistance people (never actually hit him), so whether they do or don't recognize the Five is not really known, and while we can guess from what we see, it's not certain. So I would suggest we just remove it to prevent any possible problems in the future. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:02, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Zeus/Archive 1

2007-10-12T02:04:29Z

Sauron18:

As noted in the discussion for the general religion page, I warn, in no uncertain terms, that you may be committing blasphemy by saying that Jupiter is another name for Zeus. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 17:52, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
:Check the page, added a quote from RDM explaining why they decided to start calling him Jupiter from "The Passage" on forward. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 21:04, 11 October 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)/Archive 1

2007-10-12T00:40:45Z

Sauron18: /* Lords of Kobol vs other gods */ Zeus = Jupiter

== Lords of Kobol ==
Does the existance of the Mercury class Battlestars imply that Hermes/Mercury is a Lord of Kobol? --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 15:15, 18 October 2006 (CDT)+
:The writers of the show are dancing about in the usage of Greek and Roman mythological names. Since Hermes hasn't been mentioned specifically as a Lord, no, we can't add it. I'm not big on mixing the pantheons until the context of the names in the show are clear. We have a list of names (Greek, mostly) of names heard of ships or used as people, but until used in in the context as a Lord, we shouldn't assume that the name is actually that of a Lord. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:20, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::That makes sense. It occured to me after I wrote the above that the name could refer to quicksilver, which would make sense if the Mercury class was faster than earlier ones. That would also tidy up the roman nomenclature.
::Where is the list of names you mentioned? --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 15:30, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
:::See the section, "Other mythological names in Colonial culture," this article. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:28, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::::LMAO. I was searching all over this site. It didn't occur to me that it'd be in the same article I was commenting on. --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 20:47, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

The article mentions that seven lords have been identified. Anyone notice this is the same as the number of identified cylons? It could be that each cylon model represents a lord (i.e. Sharon - Athena, Six (or maybe three) - Hera). The 5 unidentified cylons match 5 unidentified lords match the 5 in the temple of five. On a related note: how about the (norse) idea of an allfather - the Cylons recognize the allfather, but none of the lower "gods" (including the Lords of Kobol). I suppose this would be an alternate theory to the Jealous God being the god of cylons. --[[User:Ublej|Ublej]] 17:29, 4 January 2007 (CST)
:The Colonials have Zeus as the boss of all other gods. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:32, 4 January 2007 (CST)

== More Cowbell ==
Actually, more images, please. Great text content, but a couple of more images applied evenly would really brighten things up. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:04, 8 December 2006 (CST)
:Ooh. And there are some XHTML problems. I'll get on those. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:25, 8 December 2006 (CST)

== Out-of-Universe Referencing and Revision ==

I get very confused with voice when reading this article, where we speak of the Colonials and compare it to real-world references. I wanted to keep these important notes in but not to the point where we had to discuss every detail or explanation. With that in mind, I got bold:

*The two articles that go overboard in discussing the Greek Gods and Greek Mythology are deleted, per Battlestar Wiki policy: We aren't a general encyclopedia, so Wikipedia links to more extensive articles should do for this. Both articles have been discussed of late as being redundant or just plain nongermane.

*This article's out-of-universe notes were moved as footnotes. This simplifies the read but keeps the voice of the article in discussing the Colonials, not the Colonials-vs.-Greek-vs.-Norse. Note that the terms "Greek", Norse, and the like are also removed or pulled; these don't exist in the series and it makes it confusing to make the comparison. The name of the gods usually explain it all but the important points are now footnotes.

I'm finding that reading articles that analyze the Colonials and Cylons take too much from the real-world to form their explanations when in-universe comments work well without overly drawn out comparisons. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:28, 12 January 2007 (CST)

:While I support the idea, I think it's possible to take it too far. If we take your approach to the extreme, it's impossible to have any real-world references in articles, which happens fairly often and is simply necessary in some cases. I think that this is more important:
:That the ''main'' voice of an article is "in-universe". Meaning no general real-world articles, but "in-universe" articles can contain a few real-world references if necessary.

:Case in point my new [[Mythological references]] page, which generally goes like "<ship/place name> - <significance in the show> <real world reference>". I didn't go out of my way to hide the Greek/Roman/Norse allusions in "in-universe" explinations, like saying that Greek mythology is really Colonial mythology in the context of the show (it probably is in fact, but that's more something for this article).

:However, in this article here, it's appropriate to only detail the religious stuff as it pertains to the Colonials, and not to the real world. So we could keep the "Mythological references" article seperate, delete the references here (which I copied anyways) and link to it from here, as a place that deals with mythology that goes beyond religion and also includes more real-life explinations and links. That would help to keep the POVs seperate --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:56, 13 January 2007 (CST)

::I concur. Whereever we can keep the in-universe voice, great. Where out-of-universe comparisons must be in line with the text to keep the article germane and sensible, it's also fine. The recent articles you built/rebuilt exemplify good uses of that practice. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:06, 30 January 2007 (CST)

==Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies==

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to
suggest that the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the
Cylons. They are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than
Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans. So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord
or at the very least evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for
enlightenment, in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to
refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness
perhaps even conciousness of the lords in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the
lords. The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see
developing in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious
leader in the original series has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his
fellow cylons to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And
yet, strangely, he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother
cylons, something you would expect of an Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in
heaven, he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a
member of a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself
(greek gods), how satanic might he appear? An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satan's flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rule in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in
hell. So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica/ Aphrodite, Sharon
Athena and Deanna/Hestia(?). Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?

Adama and Laura as Zeus and Hera? Two reason for two of the final five to stay
where they are. They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the
flow, well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of
Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and
wonderful in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge
advances by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of
Stargate or the Vorlons of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with
higher beings in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty
realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a
new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a
metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end
sounds far more believeable than actual gods and godesses co-existing with man. (mevenstar)

:I think a more likely explanation is that whoever designed the humanoid cylons chose to use the lords as an inspiration or possibly the design was intended to mock the 12 lords and thus humanity itself. They chose 12 archetypes to define humanity saying basically all of you have one of these 12 personality types and that's it. I don't think the lords are using the cylons as avatars. Sounds too mystical. I also don't think time travel is involved and that somehow the cylons will one day go back into the past and become the lords.

:I don't really have a theory on exactly what the lords of kobol are but I do think the cylon god is a rogue lord of kobol. I also think the 13th tribe worshipped this rogue lord first. The 13th tribe left kobol because the other 12 pagan tribes were sacrifing humans and indulging in cannibalism. They first found the algae planet and built the temple of five which was dedicated to the five priests who worshipped the one whose name cannot be mentioned. This one whose name cannot be mentioned is almost certainly a rogue lord of kobol. If the priests were worshipping this one god this tells me the entire 13th tribe had the one god.

:Throughout the series we have seen the cylons talk about revelations from god and talk of his commandments. What is the source for this divine inspiration? I suspect the 12 colonies like we in the real world had scholars who studied ancient religions in the real world. They had reference books, academic papers, unearthed archeological artifacts and various other things that set out to paint a picture of what the 13th tribe was like. This information about the 13th tribe and their worship of the one god was known to the mechanical cylons before work on the humanoid models began and became the foundation of the cylon religion.

:The cylons have (more or less) adopted the religion of the 13th tribe. The commandments they speak of are what God demanded of the 13th tribe (an example god commands them to procreate). The humanoid models may not even be entirely aware that their religion mirrors the 13th tribe's ancient religion. This desire to find earth is also part of this borrowed (and possibly distorted) religion. The cylons want to find earth because according to their religion earth is the promised land...and it probably was...for the 13th colony. [[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 12:06, 30 January 2007.

== Lords of Kobol vs other gods ==

I don't think it's sensible to assume that every god or goddess mentioned is a Lord of Kobol. Case in point [[Aurora, Goddess of the Dawn]]. The Greeks didn't just have the Twelve Olympians (after whom the Lords seem to directly modeled after), but also minor deities. No reason the Colonials shouldn't as well. Another example is Nike, who is mentioned - even if not by name - in "Torn". She hang around with Zeus, and is often portrayed together with Athena, but is not a real Olympian. 
I suggest we have another header called "Other gods" or "Other deities" for those, with maybe a footnote stating that their status is uncertain. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:08, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

:I've generally felt that any god mentioned in the context of worship was a Lord of Kobol--the Colonials are very monotheistic. However, since we don't have clearer contexts for some, such as names used in [[Temple]] or something, it may be safe not to read too much into them. Some could be counterparts to [[w:Saint|saints]] for all we know. I agree that the Olympian/Titan arguments are meaningless here since Roman versions and other religions get mixed about. I generally agree with your comments. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:39, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::The Colonials use Greek and Roman names interchangeably, but that doesn't have anything to do with the Olympian/Lords of Kobol parallel. I just have a feeling that that are just twelve Lords of Kobol who are direct parallel to the ancient Olympians. However, there have been a lot of mentions of other mythological figures and gods, especially in the ship names. Or usually when asked about believes it's more "Do you believe in the gods?" instead of "Do you believe in the Lords of Kobol". There is no definite statement that "gods" refers to the Lords of Kobol exclusively, even if they are clearly the main gods. Could go either way. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:06, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::They're certainly [[w:polytheism|polytheistic]], not [[w:monotheism|monotheistc]], please read the definitions carefully. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 12:07, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::I meant "poly" and mistyped. Thanks. The notion that there are twelve Lords of Kobol is a TOS misconception that seems to have moved to RDM; I don't know of a citation for that. It's a lot easier to say "gods" than "Lords of Kobol", of course. While there could be other monothesistic or polythestic faiths with the Colonials, only one "sect" or denomination has been established officially: the five priests of the [[Temple of Five]]. Must be significant: they got a temple out of it in the middle of nowhere. -- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:13, 18 April 2007 (CDT) ([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contribs]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|WonderNumbers]])
::::I get what you're saying, but I noticed a tendency here lately to push one kind of agenda, when there isn't much concrete evidence to pursue another equally valid interpretation. Obviously something needs to be written, but lack of concrete evidence for point A doesn't prove point B. There is no evidence for there being more than 12 Lords of Kobol either, though Occam's Razor would probably come to that conclusion then. But there are theories that the Lords were originally human leaders of the tribes who were deified later (even before the exodus from Kobol). It's speculation, but agrees with the quotes from the scriptures...As said, it could be either way.
::::However, this has nothing to do with different faiths. Nothing prevents a worshiper of the Lord of Kobol to also recognize or worship certain either deities. The ancient Greeks didn't only worship the Olympians for example. Exclusive worship is somewhat of a monotheistic concept. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:36, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::I don't think we even know if all the named Olympians are Lords of Kobol. Maybe "Lords of Kobol" is synonymous with "the gods", maybe it refers exclusively to the Olympian Dodekatheon, maybe it includes the Dodekatheon and the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, maybe it only includes a few of the Olympians. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:35, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::My point is that we haven't been explicitly told of any other ''faiths'', which differs from the number of gods. A single god can be worshipped differently based on many different faith structures, such as the Jews and Christians do. We haven't been given ''any'' data that suggests that their are other central faith structures other than the Lords of Kobol and God (with the [[five priests]]' diety being a possible exception). There are obviously different "denominations", for lack of a better term (Gemonese and Sagittarons do this), but I don't tend to interpret matters any further. Be it 10 or 10,000 Lords, they may fall under the same central faith structure. We don't know, so I don't try to interpret it much, but just drop it in the place that best fits. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:47, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::::Agreed. There is only evidence of one religion practiced in the twelve colonies, with various sects, denominations and personal interpretations, however it seems to be, for the most part, relatively uniform. There are two possible exceptions, however both of them may be particularly divergent sects / denominations of the colonial religion. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:28, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::::: I disagree with the assumption that Aurora is a Lord of Kobol. She may be a god, but that doesn't make her a Lord of Kobol. I don't think anyone familiar with Greek mythology would think she fits with Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite, Artemis, Apollo, Athena, etc.

:::::::: I disagree with the assumption that Jupiter is just another name for Zeus and Mars is just another name for Ares. This has not been demonstrated on the show. However, I do realize that I'm the only one who thinks this way and that no one can grasp that they might be slightly different entities, like one a clone of the other. What if Jupiter is the Cylon God, while Zeus is a Colonial god. Think of the sacrilege your Wiki page is committing then!!! Remember ''only a Cylon'' has ever mentioned the god Jupiter. The Sacred Scrolls have (thus far) never mentioned this god - only Zeus, Hera, and the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, whom I think is Jupiter. The temple of Five is for the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, and the Sacred Scrolls tell us that the Eye of Jupiter is in the Temple of Five. Do the math. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 17:45, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
:::::::::I think that, in the specific case of Zeus/Jupiter, RDM or one of TPTB mentioned that the name had to be changed from Zeus (which it originally was) because of some sort of copyright reason or something like that. I think it's either on a podcast or an interview, but I'm sure I heard it. I'll look it up. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:29, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
::::::::::Okay, I looked and found one in the "Eye of Jupiter" podcast [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Podcast:The_Eye_of_Jupiter]. I dunno if it's the one I remember, but either way the reasoning is different from what I thought, but the fact remains that Jupiter and Zeus are the same being-
:::::::::::'''''"Eye of Jupiter" was originally called "Eye of Zeus" for a very long time in draft form and into script. We changed the name, ultimately, for not very deep reasons. Just that there was something about "Eye of Zeus" that seemed a bit too mystical and a little bit too over-the-top, even for us. And that's saying somethin'. But we didn't want to- the story still was what the story was, and we didn't really wanna lose that aspect of what the episode was and the slide to call it Jupiter instead of Zeus was an arbitrary one, except it, somehow, for subjective reasons that are hard to explain, it sounded a little less hokey. Some could argue it's more hokey, but it was also a nice way to broaden the pantheon, as it were, ha ha ha, of the gods and their references in the Galactica universe and the mythos, in that Zeus being the Greek name for the father of the gods, and Jupiter being the later Roman version of the same idea. And it was nice to have both names- both proper names present in the Galactica world. I believe we've used other Roman names, from time to time, as well, although of course right off the top of my head I can't remember which ones they were, but I think we have established that. '''''
::::::::::So yeah....same being. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:40, 11 October 2007 (CDT)

== About Hera ==

I've recently gone through several Lord of Kobol articles and removed the Greek mythological references since this information isn't needed here (we're not a general encyclopedia) and because the Earth information doesn't always mesh with the series information. Right now, there's enough references for each Lord to stand on their own without out-of-universe comparisons.

One note about Hera. In our mythology she is the wife AND sister of Zeus (gross as that might be to some). I was about to revert [[User:Mudflap|Mudflap's]] recent deletion of the "sister" part when I realized after checking that the show has NOT noted this element of Hera in its own mythology. So, that stands for now. As I said, there is sufficient mythology generated by the show itself now to avoid adding much from our universe to theirs. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:15, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

: Selloi: I have a message for you from the one you worship. He speaks through me to you just as he speaks in your dreams. The message is... the fruit born of two peoples [Three's smile fades.] is alive. A child named after the wife and sister of the all-knowing Zeus. Hera lives.

: So, Hera is wife and sister of Zeus. I think somewhere on the page it says Zeus is the head God of the Colonials. What if Hera is the head God of the Colonials instead? I don't think it's been established that Zeus is the head God for the Colonials. He is all-knowing, true. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 17:45, 11 October 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)/Archive 1

2007-10-12T00:29:24Z

Sauron18: /* Lords of Kobol vs other gods */

== Lords of Kobol ==
Does the existance of the Mercury class Battlestars imply that Hermes/Mercury is a Lord of Kobol? --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 15:15, 18 October 2006 (CDT)+
:The writers of the show are dancing about in the usage of Greek and Roman mythological names. Since Hermes hasn't been mentioned specifically as a Lord, no, we can't add it. I'm not big on mixing the pantheons until the context of the names in the show are clear. We have a list of names (Greek, mostly) of names heard of ships or used as people, but until used in in the context as a Lord, we shouldn't assume that the name is actually that of a Lord. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:20, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::That makes sense. It occured to me after I wrote the above that the name could refer to quicksilver, which would make sense if the Mercury class was faster than earlier ones. That would also tidy up the roman nomenclature.
::Where is the list of names you mentioned? --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 15:30, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
:::See the section, "Other mythological names in Colonial culture," this article. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:28, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::::LMAO. I was searching all over this site. It didn't occur to me that it'd be in the same article I was commenting on. --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 20:47, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

The article mentions that seven lords have been identified. Anyone notice this is the same as the number of identified cylons? It could be that each cylon model represents a lord (i.e. Sharon - Athena, Six (or maybe three) - Hera). The 5 unidentified cylons match 5 unidentified lords match the 5 in the temple of five. On a related note: how about the (norse) idea of an allfather - the Cylons recognize the allfather, but none of the lower "gods" (including the Lords of Kobol). I suppose this would be an alternate theory to the Jealous God being the god of cylons. --[[User:Ublej|Ublej]] 17:29, 4 January 2007 (CST)
:The Colonials have Zeus as the boss of all other gods. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:32, 4 January 2007 (CST)

== More Cowbell ==
Actually, more images, please. Great text content, but a couple of more images applied evenly would really brighten things up. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:04, 8 December 2006 (CST)
:Ooh. And there are some XHTML problems. I'll get on those. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:25, 8 December 2006 (CST)

== Out-of-Universe Referencing and Revision ==

I get very confused with voice when reading this article, where we speak of the Colonials and compare it to real-world references. I wanted to keep these important notes in but not to the point where we had to discuss every detail or explanation. With that in mind, I got bold:

*The two articles that go overboard in discussing the Greek Gods and Greek Mythology are deleted, per Battlestar Wiki policy: We aren't a general encyclopedia, so Wikipedia links to more extensive articles should do for this. Both articles have been discussed of late as being redundant or just plain nongermane.

*This article's out-of-universe notes were moved as footnotes. This simplifies the read but keeps the voice of the article in discussing the Colonials, not the Colonials-vs.-Greek-vs.-Norse. Note that the terms "Greek", Norse, and the like are also removed or pulled; these don't exist in the series and it makes it confusing to make the comparison. The name of the gods usually explain it all but the important points are now footnotes.

I'm finding that reading articles that analyze the Colonials and Cylons take too much from the real-world to form their explanations when in-universe comments work well without overly drawn out comparisons. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:28, 12 January 2007 (CST)

:While I support the idea, I think it's possible to take it too far. If we take your approach to the extreme, it's impossible to have any real-world references in articles, which happens fairly often and is simply necessary in some cases. I think that this is more important:
:That the ''main'' voice of an article is "in-universe". Meaning no general real-world articles, but "in-universe" articles can contain a few real-world references if necessary.

:Case in point my new [[Mythological references]] page, which generally goes like "<ship/place name> - <significance in the show> <real world reference>". I didn't go out of my way to hide the Greek/Roman/Norse allusions in "in-universe" explinations, like saying that Greek mythology is really Colonial mythology in the context of the show (it probably is in fact, but that's more something for this article).

:However, in this article here, it's appropriate to only detail the religious stuff as it pertains to the Colonials, and not to the real world. So we could keep the "Mythological references" article seperate, delete the references here (which I copied anyways) and link to it from here, as a place that deals with mythology that goes beyond religion and also includes more real-life explinations and links. That would help to keep the POVs seperate --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:56, 13 January 2007 (CST)

::I concur. Whereever we can keep the in-universe voice, great. Where out-of-universe comparisons must be in line with the text to keep the article germane and sensible, it's also fine. The recent articles you built/rebuilt exemplify good uses of that practice. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:06, 30 January 2007 (CST)

==Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies==

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to
suggest that the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the
Cylons. They are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than
Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans. So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord
or at the very least evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for
enlightenment, in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to
refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness
perhaps even conciousness of the lords in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the
lords. The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see
developing in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious
leader in the original series has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his
fellow cylons to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And
yet, strangely, he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother
cylons, something you would expect of an Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in
heaven, he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a
member of a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself
(greek gods), how satanic might he appear? An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satan's flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rule in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in
hell. So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica/ Aphrodite, Sharon
Athena and Deanna/Hestia(?). Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?

Adama and Laura as Zeus and Hera? Two reason for two of the final five to stay
where they are. They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the
flow, well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of
Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and
wonderful in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge
advances by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of
Stargate or the Vorlons of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with
higher beings in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty
realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a
new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a
metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end
sounds far more believeable than actual gods and godesses co-existing with man. (mevenstar)

:I think a more likely explanation is that whoever designed the humanoid cylons chose to use the lords as an inspiration or possibly the design was intended to mock the 12 lords and thus humanity itself. They chose 12 archetypes to define humanity saying basically all of you have one of these 12 personality types and that's it. I don't think the lords are using the cylons as avatars. Sounds too mystical. I also don't think time travel is involved and that somehow the cylons will one day go back into the past and become the lords.

:I don't really have a theory on exactly what the lords of kobol are but I do think the cylon god is a rogue lord of kobol. I also think the 13th tribe worshipped this rogue lord first. The 13th tribe left kobol because the other 12 pagan tribes were sacrifing humans and indulging in cannibalism. They first found the algae planet and built the temple of five which was dedicated to the five priests who worshipped the one whose name cannot be mentioned. This one whose name cannot be mentioned is almost certainly a rogue lord of kobol. If the priests were worshipping this one god this tells me the entire 13th tribe had the one god.

:Throughout the series we have seen the cylons talk about revelations from god and talk of his commandments. What is the source for this divine inspiration? I suspect the 12 colonies like we in the real world had scholars who studied ancient religions in the real world. They had reference books, academic papers, unearthed archeological artifacts and various other things that set out to paint a picture of what the 13th tribe was like. This information about the 13th tribe and their worship of the one god was known to the mechanical cylons before work on the humanoid models began and became the foundation of the cylon religion.

:The cylons have (more or less) adopted the religion of the 13th tribe. The commandments they speak of are what God demanded of the 13th tribe (an example god commands them to procreate). The humanoid models may not even be entirely aware that their religion mirrors the 13th tribe's ancient religion. This desire to find earth is also part of this borrowed (and possibly distorted) religion. The cylons want to find earth because according to their religion earth is the promised land...and it probably was...for the 13th colony. [[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 12:06, 30 January 2007.

== Lords of Kobol vs other gods ==

I don't think it's sensible to assume that every god or goddess mentioned is a Lord of Kobol. Case in point [[Aurora, Goddess of the Dawn]]. The Greeks didn't just have the Twelve Olympians (after whom the Lords seem to directly modeled after), but also minor deities. No reason the Colonials shouldn't as well. Another example is Nike, who is mentioned - even if not by name - in "Torn". She hang around with Zeus, and is often portrayed together with Athena, but is not a real Olympian. 
I suggest we have another header called "Other gods" or "Other deities" for those, with maybe a footnote stating that their status is uncertain. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:08, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

:I've generally felt that any god mentioned in the context of worship was a Lord of Kobol--the Colonials are very monotheistic. However, since we don't have clearer contexts for some, such as names used in [[Temple]] or something, it may be safe not to read too much into them. Some could be counterparts to [[w:Saint|saints]] for all we know. I agree that the Olympian/Titan arguments are meaningless here since Roman versions and other religions get mixed about. I generally agree with your comments. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:39, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::The Colonials use Greek and Roman names interchangeably, but that doesn't have anything to do with the Olympian/Lords of Kobol parallel. I just have a feeling that that are just twelve Lords of Kobol who are direct parallel to the ancient Olympians. However, there have been a lot of mentions of other mythological figures and gods, especially in the ship names. Or usually when asked about believes it's more "Do you believe in the gods?" instead of "Do you believe in the Lords of Kobol". There is no definite statement that "gods" refers to the Lords of Kobol exclusively, even if they are clearly the main gods. Could go either way. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:06, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::They're certainly [[w:polytheism|polytheistic]], not [[w:monotheism|monotheistc]], please read the definitions carefully. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 12:07, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::I meant "poly" and mistyped. Thanks. The notion that there are twelve Lords of Kobol is a TOS misconception that seems to have moved to RDM; I don't know of a citation for that. It's a lot easier to say "gods" than "Lords of Kobol", of course. While there could be other monothesistic or polythestic faiths with the Colonials, only one "sect" or denomination has been established officially: the five priests of the [[Temple of Five]]. Must be significant: they got a temple out of it in the middle of nowhere. -- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:13, 18 April 2007 (CDT) ([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contribs]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|WonderNumbers]])
::::I get what you're saying, but I noticed a tendency here lately to push one kind of agenda, when there isn't much concrete evidence to pursue another equally valid interpretation. Obviously something needs to be written, but lack of concrete evidence for point A doesn't prove point B. There is no evidence for there being more than 12 Lords of Kobol either, though Occam's Razor would probably come to that conclusion then. But there are theories that the Lords were originally human leaders of the tribes who were deified later (even before the exodus from Kobol). It's speculation, but agrees with the quotes from the scriptures...As said, it could be either way.
::::However, this has nothing to do with different faiths. Nothing prevents a worshiper of the Lord of Kobol to also recognize or worship certain either deities. The ancient Greeks didn't only worship the Olympians for example. Exclusive worship is somewhat of a monotheistic concept. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:36, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::I don't think we even know if all the named Olympians are Lords of Kobol. Maybe "Lords of Kobol" is synonymous with "the gods", maybe it refers exclusively to the Olympian Dodekatheon, maybe it includes the Dodekatheon and the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, maybe it only includes a few of the Olympians. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:35, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::My point is that we haven't been explicitly told of any other ''faiths'', which differs from the number of gods. A single god can be worshipped differently based on many different faith structures, such as the Jews and Christians do. We haven't been given ''any'' data that suggests that their are other central faith structures other than the Lords of Kobol and God (with the [[five priests]]' diety being a possible exception). There are obviously different "denominations", for lack of a better term (Gemonese and Sagittarons do this), but I don't tend to interpret matters any further. Be it 10 or 10,000 Lords, they may fall under the same central faith structure. We don't know, so I don't try to interpret it much, but just drop it in the place that best fits. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:47, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::::Agreed. There is only evidence of one religion practiced in the twelve colonies, with various sects, denominations and personal interpretations, however it seems to be, for the most part, relatively uniform. There are two possible exceptions, however both of them may be particularly divergent sects / denominations of the colonial religion. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:28, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::::: I disagree with the assumption that Aurora is a Lord of Kobol. She may be a god, but that doesn't make her a Lord of Kobol. I don't think anyone familiar with Greek mythology would think she fits with Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite, Artemis, Apollo, Athena, etc.

:::::::: I disagree with the assumption that Jupiter is just another name for Zeus and Mars is just another name for Ares. This has not been demonstrated on the show. However, I do realize that I'm the only one who thinks this way and that no one can grasp that they might be slightly different entities, like one a clone of the other. What if Jupiter is the Cylon God, while Zeus is a Colonial god. Think of the sacrilege your Wiki page is committing then!!! Remember ''only a Cylon'' has ever mentioned the god Jupiter. The Sacred Scrolls have (thus far) never mentioned this god - only Zeus, Hera, and the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, whom I think is Jupiter. The temple of Five is for the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, and the Sacred Scrolls tell us that the Eye of Jupiter is in the Temple of Five. Do the math. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 17:45, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
:::::::::I think that, in the specific case of Zeus/Jupiter, RDM or one of TPTB mentioned that the name had to be changed from Zeus (which it originally was) because of some sort of copyright reason or something like that. I think it's either on a podcast or an interview, but I'm sure I heard it. I'll look it up. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:29, 11 October 2007 (CDT)

== About Hera ==

I've recently gone through several Lord of Kobol articles and removed the Greek mythological references since this information isn't needed here (we're not a general encyclopedia) and because the Earth information doesn't always mesh with the series information. Right now, there's enough references for each Lord to stand on their own without out-of-universe comparisons.

One note about Hera. In our mythology she is the wife AND sister of Zeus (gross as that might be to some). I was about to revert [[User:Mudflap|Mudflap's]] recent deletion of the "sister" part when I realized after checking that the show has NOT noted this element of Hera in its own mythology. So, that stands for now. As I said, there is sufficient mythology generated by the show itself now to avoid adding much from our universe to theirs. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:15, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

: Selloi: I have a message for you from the one you worship. He speaks through me to you just as he speaks in your dreams. The message is... the fruit born of two peoples [Three's smile fades.] is alive. A child named after the wife and sister of the all-knowing Zeus. Hera lives.

: So, Hera is wife and sister of Zeus. I think somewhere on the page it says Zeus is the head God of the Colonials. What if Hera is the head God of the Colonials instead? I don't think it's been established that Zeus is the head God for the Colonials. He is all-knowing, true. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 17:45, 11 October 2007 (CDT)

Helena Cain

2007-10-04T22:08:41Z

Sauron18: Main Image (Possibly Temporary Given Razor is coming)

:''For information on this character's [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]] counterpart, see [[Cain (TOS)]].

{{Character Data
|photo=CainH.jpg
|age=
|colony=[[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]]
|birthname=Helena Cain
|callsign=
|seen= Pegasus (episode)
|death= Shot by [[Gina]] aboard ''Pegasus'', in Cain's quarters ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]).
|parents=
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status=
|role=Commanding Officer, [[Mercury class battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''
|rank=Rear Admiral
|actor=[[Michelle Forbes]]
|cylon=
|name=
}}

Admiral '''Helena Cain''', hailing from the colony [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]], is the commander of the [[Mercury class battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' during the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. She is a hard woman not afraid of hard decisions and unflinching in her will to do what she sees as right. Sometimes, these traits conspire so that she sees that she has been left no choice but to take controversial, unpopular or morally questionable decisions.

==Biography==
===Cylon attack, and guerilla warfare===
At the time of the [[Cylon attack]], Cain's battlestar was stationed at the [[Scorpian Fleet Shipyards]] for upgrades and shore leave. As the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] attacked, destroying other battlestars and support ships there, Cain orders a [[Blind jump|blind jump]], gambling that the result of such an impromptu (and inadvisable) escape would be better than the alternative of destruction.

Despite the impossible odds, Cain intended to sustain a campaign of guerrilla warfare against the occupying Cylon forces. Shortly after her escape, however, ''Pegasus'' encountered a small refugee fleet of fifteen ships. Unwilling to be shackled down by the responsibility of protecting them, she stripped the refugee fleet of useful hardware and personnel, and left them stranded without [[FTL]] engines. She then led the battlestar away from the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]], following a Cylon fleet that trailed what they discovered as the fellow battlestar ''[[Galactica]]''.

===Galactica===
Upon meeting up with Commander [[William Adama]]'s [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]], she assumes command and transfers personnel from ''Galactica'' to ''Pegasus'', including [[Lee Adama]] and [[Kara Thrace]], indicating that Adama has let military discipline become too lax. Cain is more interested in fighting the Cylons, seemingly oblivious to the point that she and the ships around her are all that was left of the human race, whose survival is more paramount than offensive assaults. While Adama initially welcomes such attacks against a mysterious Cylon force that followed the Fleet (to stop it from following them), his attitude begins to cool about Cain's very strict and unmerciful leadership.
[[image:caingalact.jpg|left|Admiral Cain, meeting up with the crew of ''Galactica''.|thumb]]
Cain's actions also raise concerns with President [[Laura Roslin]]. Cain recognizes Roslin and her former role as Secretary of Education. After the Fleet command transfer from Adama to Cain, Roslin makes several attempts to call Cain to request supplies for the civilian fleet, but all of Roslin's calls are ignored.

Cain may also show brutal behavior when commanding her own staff, according to a conversation over alcohol that Colonel [[Saul Tigh]] has with his ''Pegasus'' counterpart, Colonel [[Jack Fisk]]. Fisk comments that, after ''Pegasus'' initially escapes, the battlestar once tries to attack a Cylon communications relay -- an easy target. On arrival however, it turns out the target is a Cylon staging area, filled with 15 squadrons of [[Cylon Raider (RDM)|Raider]]s. Admiral Cain ordered her previous Executive Officer, a man she had served with for years, to carry out the attack anyway, but he refused the order in the face of such odds. Admiral Cain asked the XO for his gun, and shot him in the head in front of the crew in the Pegasus [[CIC]]. Cain then turned to Fisk and ordered him to launch the attack, which he did. After relating this story to Col. Tigh, Col. Fisk says he is joking about the incident.

Although the story could be unreliable because Fisk is drunk at the time, Tigh relays the story and his suspicions of his likelihood to Adama. Adama cautions that ''Galactica'''s crew has also made some questionable actions since the attack, and they don't know if the story was taken out of context or not. Even if the story is true, Adama is willing to give Cain the benefit of the doubt and not question the matter further.

===Court-martial, standoff===
After the suspect fatal assault of one of her crew members, Lieutenant [[Alastair Thorne|Thorne]], Cain arrests Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] and Lieutenant Karl "[[Karl Agathon|Helo]]" Agathon and flies them to ''Pegasus'', under Adama's protest, since traditionally a trial is held on the ship where an incident has occurred. Cain uses ''Galactica'''s log against Adama when he asks for a tribunal; Cain notes that Adama dismissed the last council unilaterally when the verdict did not suit him. Cain summarily court-martials the prisoners herself in a matter of hours, sentencing them to death. Commander Adama is far from pleased, and orders an assault crew to head for ''Pegasus'' to bring his men back. Cain responds by deploying her squadrons of advanced Viper Mark VIIs against Adama's museum collection of Viper Mark IIs in a tense standoff ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]).

The tense game of chicken that begins is ended by Starbuck, flying the [[Blackbird]] as she returns from her unofficial recon mission on the unknown Cylon ship. Starbuck transmits the pictures she took of the [[Resurrection Ship]] back to ''Pegasus'''s [[CIC]]. Upon Thrace's return to ''Pegasus'', Cain is so impressed with her performance that she promotes Thrace to Captain and ''Pegasus'' [[CAG]], replacing the competent but uncreative and inflexible Captain [[Cole Taylor|Taylor]]. Cain tasks Starbuck with planning the joint strike on the Resurrection Ship.

===Attack on the Resurrection Ship, and assassination===
[[Image:Gina-Cain.jpg|thumb|Admiral Cain held at gun-point by [[Gina|her Cylon prisoner]].]]

After Captain Thrace briefs both Adama, Apollo, and Cain on her plan to attack the Resurrection Ship, Adama pulls Starbuck aside and outlines a plan to assassinate Cain following the attack. At the same time, Cain instructs [[Jack Fisk]] to lead a detachment of marines to "terminate Adama's command" after the battle ([[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]).

When the moment arrives, neither commander decides to send their execution orders, leaving Thrace and Fisk visibly relieved. Cain survives Adama's plan, ironically, because Adama solicits advice from [[Sharon Agathon|the second copy of Sharon Valerii]], who reminds him of his decommissioning speech that asked whether humanity asked itself if it deserved to survive ([[Miniseries]]). That is, Adama's actions in assassinating Cain would be a good example of why humanity deserved what the Cylons dealt to them so many months ago. Although it may have been due to realizing Adama's value as a commander during the battle, the reasons for Cain staying her hand were never revealed, and remain a topic of debate among fans.

Unfortunately for Cain, shortly after Adama's window to assassinate Cain had passed, [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] helps the Cylon agent [[Gina]] escape from the brig. Gina makes her way to Cain's quarters and shoots Cain at point blank range. A soldier to the last, Cain's final words are "[[Frak]] you."

Cain's funeral is given full military honors, with Fisk and Thrace giving eulogies. Though Thrace only knew Cain briefly, she obviously admired the woman, stating "We were safer with her than we are without." ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]).

== Notes ==
*Helena Cain is inspired by the character of Commander [[Cain (TOS)|Cain]] from the original ''[[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Battlestar Galactica]]'', portrayed by the late [[Lloyd Bridges]].

*Unlike Commander Cain in the Original Series, Admiral Cain is a superior officer to Commander William Adama. The Original Series character of Adama held a higher rank than Cain, relieving him of command for a time in the two part episode, "[[The Living Legend, Part I|The Living Legend]]".

*Actress Michelle Forbes said on her character, "She’s lost perspective. People ask, ‘Is she insane? Is she psychotic?’ I hope that’s not how she came across because that was never the intention. I think some individuals can appear to be that way, but this is a woman who did what she had to do in order to survive during some very brutal conflicts. Along the way, Cain lost her sense of judgment as well as her sense of reason and rationale. That was all very interesting for me to play. Usually in TV you’re given one characteristic and you dare not stray from that, so it was neat to have such a difficult, fascinating woman to play. In "[[Resurrection Ship, Part I|Resurrection Ship]]" it really comes to light the path of sadism that these people have gone down and we’re fully able to see exactly what happened to this group aboard the Pegasus. There were some pretty difficult choices they had to make, too, in regard to the Cylon prisoner Gina and that whole dynamic." [http://www.greatlink.org/dcisV2.asp?url=http://www.greatlink.org/shownewsitem.asp?item=5201]

*Forbes guest starred as Dara Timicin in the ''[[MemoryAlpha:Star Trek: The Next Generation|Star Trek: The Next Generation]]'' episode "[[MemoryAlpha:Half a Life|Half a Life]]" and had a recurring role as Ensign [[MemoryAlpha:Ro Laren|Ro Laren]] during the last three seasons of ''Star Trek: The Next Generation''. ''Battlestar Galactica'' executive producer [[Ronald D. Moore]], also a ''TNG'' veteran, wrote for her character in the episodes "[[MemoryAlpha:Disaster|Disaster]]" and "[[MemoryAlpha:The Next Phase|The Next Phase]]".

*Cain's first name, Helena, was not spoken in dialogue but was posted in episode summaries on Scifi.com.

*Cain's habit of expediting meetings by conducting them without chairs is borrowed from UN Ambassador [[Wikipedia:John R. Bolton|John R. Bolton]] (Source: [[Podcast:Pegasus#Act 2|Podcast:Pegasus]]). Within the show, the lack of chairs is said to stem from her preference to stand because of her back problems ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]).

{{start box}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown)'' |title=Commanding Officer, ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''|after=[[Jack Fisk]]}}
{{end box}}

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Cain, Helena]]
[[Category:Characters|Cain, Helena]]
[[Category:Characters (RDM)|Cain, Helena]]
[[Category:Recurring Guest Characters (RDM)|Cain, Helena]]
[[Category:People from Tauron|Cain, Helena]]
[[Category:RDM|Cain, Helena]]

[[de:Helena Cain]]
[[fr:Helena Cain]]

Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques

2007-10-04T11:47:50Z

Sauron18: /* Cybernetic Living Organism */

Helena Cain

2007-07-11T08:30:57Z

Sauron18: Main Image

:''For information on this character's [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]] counterpart, see [[Cain (TOS)]].

{{Character Data
|photo=Helena Cain.jpg
|age=
|colony=[[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]]
|birthname=Helena Cain
|callsign=
|seen= Pegasus (episode)
|death= Shot by [[Gina]] aboard ''Pegasus'', in Cain's quarters ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]).
|parents=
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status=
|role=Commanding Officer, [[Mercury class battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''
|rank=Rear Admiral
|actor=[[Michelle Forbes]]
|cylon=
|name=
}}

Admiral '''Helena Cain''', hailing from the colony [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]], is the commander of the [[Mercury class battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' during the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. She is a hard woman not afraid of hard decisions and unflinching in her will to do what she sees as right. Sometimes, these traits conspire so that she sees that she has been left no choice but to take controversial, unpopular or morally questionable decisions.

==Biography==
===Cylon attack, and guerilla warfare===
At the time of the [[Cylon attack]], Cain's battlestar was stationed at the [[Scorpian Fleet Shipyards]] for upgrades and shore leave. As the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] attacked, destroying other battlestars and support ships there, Cain orders a [[Blind jump|blind jump]], gambling that the result of such an impromptu (and inadvisable) escape would be better than the alternative of destruction.

Despite the impossible odds, Cain intended to sustain a campaign of guerrilla warfare against the occupying Cylon forces. Shortly after her escape, however, ''Pegasus'' encountered a small refugee fleet of fifteen ships. Unwilling to be shackled down by the responsibility of protecting them, she stripped the refugee fleet of useful hardware and personnel, and left them stranded without [[FTL]] engines. She then led the battlestar away from the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]], following a Cylon fleet that trailed what they discovered as the fellow battlestar ''[[Galactica]]''.

===Galactica===
Upon meeting up with Commander [[William Adama]]'s [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]], she assumes command and transfers personnel from ''Galactica'' to ''Pegasus'', including [[Lee Adama]] and [[Kara Thrace]], indicating that Adama has let military discipline become too lax. Cain is more interested in fighting the Cylons, seemingly oblivious to the point that she and the ships around her are all that was left of the human race, whose survival is more paramount than offensive assaults. While Adama initially welcomes such attacks against a mysterious Cylon force that followed the Fleet (to stop it from following them), his attitude begins to cool about Cain's very strict and unmerciful leadership.
[[image:caingalact.jpg|left|Admiral Cain, meeting up with the crew of ''Galactica''.|thumb]]
Cain's actions also raise concerns with President [[Laura Roslin]]. Cain recognizes Roslin and her former role as Secretary of Education. After the Fleet command transfer from Adama to Cain, Roslin makes several attempts to call Cain to request supplies for the civilian fleet, but all of Roslin's calls are ignored.

Cain may also show brutal behavior when commanding her own staff, according to a conversation over alcohol that Colonel [[Saul Tigh]] has with his ''Pegasus'' counterpart, Colonel [[Jack Fisk]]. Fisk comments that, after ''Pegasus' ''initially escapes, the battlestar once tries to attack a Cylon communications relay -- an easy target. On arrival however, it turns out the target is a Cylon staging area, filled with 15 squadrons of [[Cylon Raider (RDM)|Raider]]s. Admiral Cain ordered her previous Executive Officer, a man she had served with for years, to carry out the attack anyway, but he refused the order in the face of such odds. Admiral Cain asked the XO for his gun, and shot him in the head in front of the crew in the Pegasus [[CIC]]. Cain then turned to Fisk and ordered him to launch the attack, which he did. After relating this story to Col. Tigh, Col. Fisk says he is joking about the incident.

Although the story could be unreliable because Fisk is drunk at the time, Tigh relays the story and his suspicions of his likelihood to Adama. Adama cautions that ''Galactica'''s crew has also made some questionable actions since the attack, and they don't know if the story was taken out of context or not. Even if the story is true, Adama is willing to give Cain the benefit of the doubt and not question the matter further.

===Court-martial, standoff===
After the suspect fatal assault of one of her crew members, Lieutenant [[Alastair Thorne|Thorne]], Cain arrests Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] and Lieutenant Karl "[[Karl Agathon|Helo]]" Agathon and flies them to ''Pegasus'', under Adama's protest, since traditionally a trial is held on the ship where an incident has occurred. Cain uses ''Galactica'''s log against Adama when he asks for a tribunal; Cain notes that Adama dismissed the last council unilaterally when the verdict did not suit him. Cain summarily court-martials the prisoners herself in a matter of hours, sentencing them to death. Commander Adama is far from pleased, and orders an assault crew to head for ''Pegasus'' to bring his men back. Cain responds by deploying her squadrons of advanced Viper Mark VIIs against Adama's museum collection of Viper Mark IIs in a tense standoff ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]).

The tense game of chicken that begins is ended by Starbuck, flying the [[Blackbird]] as she returns from her unofficial recon mission on the unknown Cylon ship. Starbuck transmits the pictures she took of the [[Resurrection Ship]] back to ''Pegasus'''s [[CIC]]. Upon Thrace's return to ''Pegasus'', Cain is so impressed with her performance that she promotes Thrace to Captain and ''Pegasus'' [[CAG]], replacing the competent but uncreative and inflexible Captain [[Cole Taylor|Taylor]]. Cain tasks Starbuck with planning the joint strike on the Resurrection Ship.

===Attack on the Resurrection Ship, and assassination===
[[Image:Gina-Cain.jpg|thumb|Admiral Cain held at gun-point by [[Gina|her Cylon prisoner]].]]

After Captain Thrace briefs both Adama, Apollo, and Cain on her plan to attack the Resurrection Ship, Adama pulls Starbuck aside and outlines a plan to assassinate Cain following the attack. At the same time, Cain instructs [[Jack Fisk]] to lead a detachment of marines to "terminate Adama's command" after the battle ([[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]).

When the moment arrives, neither commander decides to send their execution orders, leaving Thrace and Fisk visibly relieved. Cain survives Adama's plan, ironically, because Adama solicits advice from [[Sharon Agathon|the second copy of Sharon Valerii]], who reminds him of his decommissioning speech that asked whether humanity asked itself if it deserved to survive ([[Miniseries]]). That is, Adama's actions in assassinating Cain would be a good example of why humanity deserved what the Cylons dealt to them so many months ago. Although it may have been due to realizing Adama's value as a commander during the battle, the reasons for Cain staying her hand were never revealed, and remain a topic of debate among fans.

Unfortunately for Cain, shortly after Adama's window to assassinate Cain had passed, [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] helps the Cylon agent [[Gina]] escape from the brig. Gina makes her way to Cain's quarters and shoots Cain at point blank range. A soldier to the last, Cain's final words are "[[Frak]] you."

Cain's funeral is given full military honors, with Fisk and Thrace giving eulogies. Though Thrace only knew Cain briefly, she obviously admired the woman, stating "We were safer with her than we are without." ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]).

== Notes ==
*Helena Cain is inspired by the character of Commander [[Cain (TOS)|Cain]] from the original ''[[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Battlestar Galactica]]'', portrayed by the late [[Lloyd Bridges]].

*Unlike Commander Cain in the Original Series, Admiral Cain is a superior officer to Commander William Adama. The Original Series character of Adama held a higher rank than Cain, relieving him of command for a time in the two part episode, "[[The Living Legend, Part I|The Living Legend]]".

*Actress Michelle Forbes said on her character, "She’s lost perspective. People ask, ‘Is she insane? Is she psychotic?’ I hope that’s not how she came across because that was never the intention. I think some individuals can appear to be that way, but this is a woman who did what she had to do in order to survive during some very brutal conflicts. Along the way, Cain lost her sense of judgment as well as her sense of reason and rationale. That was all very interesting for me to play. Usually in TV you’re given one characteristic and you dare not stray from that, so it was neat to have such a difficult, fascinating woman to play. In "[[Resurrection Ship, Part I|Resurrection Ship]]" it really comes to light the path of sadism that these people have gone down and we’re fully able to see exactly what happened to this group aboard the Pegasus. There were some pretty difficult choices they had to make, too, in regard to the Cylon prisoner Gina and that whole dynamic." [http://www.greatlink.org/dcisV2.asp?url=http://www.greatlink.org/shownewsitem.asp?item=5201]

*Forbes guest starred as Dara Timicin in the ''[[MemoryAlpha:Star Trek: The Next Generation|Star Trek: The Next Generation]]'' episode "[[MemoryAlpha:Half a Life|Half a Life]]" and had a recurring role as Ensign [[MemoryAlpha:Ro Laren|Ro Laren]] during the last three seasons of ''Star Trek: The Next Generation''. ''Battlestar Galactica'' executive producer [[Ronald D. Moore]], also a ''TNG'' veteran, wrote for her character in the episodes "[[MemoryAlpha:Disaster|Disaster]]" and "[[MemoryAlpha:The Next Phase|The Next Phase]]".

*Cain's first name, Helena, was not spoken in dialogue but was posted in episode summaries on Scifi.com.

*Cain's habit of expediting meetings by conducting them without chairs is borrowed from UN Ambassador [[Wikipedia:John R. Bolton|John R. Bolton]] (Source: "Pegasus" podcast). Within the show, the lack of chairs is said to stem from her preference to stand because of her back problems ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]).

{{start box}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown)'' |title=Commanding Officer, ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''|after=[[Jack Fisk]]}}
{{end box}}

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Cain, Helena]]
[[Category:Characters|Cain, Helena]]
[[Category:Characters (RDM)|Cain, Helena]]
[[Category:Recurring Guest Characters (RDM)|Cain, Helena]]
[[Category:People from Tauron|Cain, Helena]]
[[Category:RDM|Cain, Helena]]

[[de:Helena Cain]]
[[fr:Helena Cain]]

Talk:Cylons (RDM)/Archive 1

2007-07-06T20:06:41Z

Sauron18: /* Cybernetic Living Organisms */

Doesn't the "twelve models of Cylons" that Six referred to mean only twelve humanoid models, not metal kinds as well?

If she really meant "twelve kinds of Cylons altogether" then you'd have to include Old/New Raiders, Recon Drones, and Old/New basestars - leaving only one more type of Cylon to be discovered. And with RDM saying that "two new Cylons will be revealed this [second] season," that's obviously not the case. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 19:39, 15 Apr 2005 (EDT)

: The consensus seems to be that there are 12 models of Humano-Cylon. Although I do understand the confusion, particularly in light of the note that Adama read at the end of the [[Miniseries]]. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:57, 15 Apr 2005 (EDT)

==Zarek Rocks' Edits==

[[User:Zarek Rocks|Zarek Rocks]] added the following on August 8th:

:In the reimagined series, Cylons are a creation of man, used primarily for dangerous work. However, they were eventually intended to be used by humans for all production continuing the colonial's [[Golden Age]]. The Cylons [[Cylon War|revolted]] against their masters, eventually [[Cylon Attack|killing off]] all but approximately 50,000 humans. Their creation for enslavement is likely their reasoning for choosing the name for their species. Cyone is a character from Greek mythology that was raped by her father and then sacrificed him on an altar in a nearby temple. The obvious parallels to the human-cylon relationship, the Colonial's religion being closely similar to the Greek Gods, and the similarity in the spelling: cylon cyone are all conclusive evidence of the origin of the name cylon.

I have a number of concerns:

#What is this [[Golden Age]] to which you refer?
#The name [[Cylon]] comes from the [[TOS|original series]], in which the Cylons are the robotic creations of a race of malevolent lizard-men. Allthough the Cyone/Cylon naming coincidence is a tempting avenue of thought, it would probably be better to note it as an odd coincidence than claim it as "conclusive evidence" for a name which antedates this version of Cylon history by over twenty-five years.
#I can't find more than a one-sentence reference to a character from greek mythology by the name of "Cyone" anywhere online. Do you have a reference to the legend that you could point us at for discussion?

Please leave the previous content intact when you make future additions unless you find it impertinent, redundant or factually innacurate.

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:21, 10 Aug 2005 (EDT)

:I apologize for my lack of background for my articles. I must confess to being much more concerned with the re-imagined BSG and so therefore have been using it as a reference point for my articles. TOS and the re-imagined series have been so different that you almost can't connect the two because of the many differences. Everyone will agree that the characters are completely different, as has the background info. The Golden Age I refer to takes place before the Cylon War. The article I used for this was found on this site, [[History of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol]]. I realize this is not canon, but it seems close enough to be considered factual. Besides, the two series are so different one could not find a 100% bulletproof article anyways, unless it referred to a tiny specific (and probably therefore uninteresting) piece of information anyways. The one sentence online you refer to about Cyone, I assume is on the same website I found it, http://www.pantheon.org/. This is a reliable website that is valid to cite in reference to Greek mythology; the information on it is reliable and in depth enough to be quoted. Please let me know if you have any questions, as I realize all of your previous ones were completely valid.

::I completely agree about the re-imagined series having very little to do with (and being far superior to) the original, but about the only thing that is clearly sourced from the original are the various character and technology names. I find the Encyclopedia Mythica entry to be a bit lacking to be worth noting here, but if you feel compelled it would be perfectly fine to note the coincidence in a "Notes" section

::P.S., to sign your comments with your name and a time stamp, use this string: <nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki>. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:37, 10 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Thanks, and I agree the Re-imagined series is far superior. SHould we restore my edits to the article or shall we leave as is? [[--Zareck Rocks 18:49, 10 Aug 2005 (EDT)--]]

:I don't personally feel it's worthwhile, but as I said above, there would be nothing wrong with pointing out the coincidence along with a citation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:05, 11 Aug 2005 (EDT)

==The Late Unpleasantness==

I'll begin. Since philwelch admits that the various Cylon craft may not count as Cylon models, it seems that the main point of controversy is whether to count the two models of Cylon Centurion. Would it be acceptable to both of you to make a note concerning the ambiguity of both the "twelve models of cylon" note and Six's assertion that "those models [the chrome toasters] still have their uses", and provide separate counts depending on which assumptions are made?

After this sticking point has been resolved, I recommend restoring the non-controversial edits lost in Ricimer's recent revert. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:49, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

:I don't count the earlier model because it's a 40 year old model and there's no evidence that it exists anymore. Anyway, I've made a compromise edit. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 13:10, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

::Philwelch's disclaimer in the "Twelve Models" section seems like a balanced reading to me, based on the available information. Ricimer, do you still object to it? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:05, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

:::Philwelch I must commend you on your recent excellent compromise edit. The main point of contention I had is that sometimes on messageboards you see people that say that "there are 12 Cylons, so counting centurions there must be 11 "human-looking" Cylons. However, I think there are 12 models of humanoid Cylon, as well as the Centurion model. I don't know if Raiders, etc. count as a "model" or not, unless they say that in a later episode. I thought it ambiguous as to how "organic" they are; i.e. their internal muscles, ligaments, nerves were more obviously synthetic; they looked like artificial skin and muscle like you'd use on burn victims. I mean, they looked more obviously silicon-based on not vat-grown; the line were "organic" and "machine" blurs (if we consider animals to be just a complex bio-chemical machine). Anyway, I really like the current edit. ---Ricimer. 1 Sept, 2005

That's called "limited special effects", I think. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:18, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

:::: Something to take note. When Boomer recently told Gaius Baltar that there were 8 more cylons within the fleet, that added up to the 12 stated long ago by Number 6. The fleet has seen Boomer, Number 6 (as Godfrey), Darol, and Leoben Conoy. They hadn't seen the 8 other models (who logically would only have 1 of each in the fleet). We've discussed D'anna Biers and we know about Simon both will show up. In the recent show, Baltar was talking to Six about other cylons aboard- that they could be anywhere. My tv was a bit dark but I swear I saw Simon pass by in military khakis when he said that. As for Ellen Tigh, look at the show where Baltar says "She's green!" when he checks her out in the test. If you zoom into the computer, it does show green. Then again, everybody was there to watch his testing so he may have covered it up. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]

Baltar altered the program when he tested Ellen. Anyway, you're assuming (a) that Boomer was right (b) There's only 1 of each (c) Godfrey isn't there. The question was "how many Cylons are left in the fleet?" and the answer was "eight". Godfrey isn't known to be a Cylon quite yet and may be in hiding. Also, why can't there be Cylon "identical twins" or Cylon doppelgangers? And how do we know Boomer is a reliable source? You're making a lot of assumptions—assumptions that I think can be abandoned just as easily if not more easily than the assumption that there are only twelve Cylon models. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:18, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

By the way, Peter's more recent edits to the article pretty much turned my exposition of the issue into an argument for his side. I went ahead and fixed it, and right now it's just an examination of all the related assumptions one could make regarding this issue and how they apply. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:51, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

:I don't really have a "side", Phil, and frankly if you and Ricimer agree on your previous version, I don't mind if you revert it. I think the current exposition here is rather monstrous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:28, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

It seemed a little biased to me, and removed a bunch of stuff that didn't need to be. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 21:33, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

I'll just say I'd like to think that afer Adama read the note, he had a similar debate: 12 Human models, or 12 all together. Life imitates Art. Sorta. [[User:Colonial one|Colonial one]] 21:47, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

Philwelch and I have agreed that this argument is best handled in its own article, so he's moved it to Twelve Cylon Models. As my main concern here is for accuracy and concision, I'm content to stay out of the debate as long as it doesn't spill over into less interpretive pages. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:07, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

==On Cylon Tactics==

I would like to open a section on Cylon tactics in this article. I was inspired to do this by the Humano-Cylon page: I feel that it fails to communicate the fundamental, asymmetric threat the Cylons pose to the Fleet. I'll start with this topic, others are welcome to contribute. Maybe eventually we can have a whole page on Cylon methods of war. It also grieves me to say that any objections or criticism will not be taken in good humor, will be interpreted as an attack on my person and may very well initiate a flame war, so please do not post them.

::Just kidding :) ''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 01:18, 7 October 2005 (EDT)''

:::I disagree ;) --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 02:08, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: :-| ''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 03:48, 7 October 2005 (EDT)''

::::: "Your day is coming, laughing boy" (Col. Tigh to Tom Zarek). ---[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] October 7, 2005

Ricimer, Jzanjani: This message is generally directed to you, but others should be reminded of this as well. Jzanjani's addition to the page is a welcome and insightful breakdown of what we all knew but have not put down to words with such eloquence. I have returned the page (with edits) to Jzanjani's last edit, reverting Ricimer's full removal. It is highly customary on this Wiki never to fully remove anyone's edits, as we go by the logical presumption that everyone has something beneficial to add to the page. Jzanjani's latest contribution certainly fits this.

When I encounter an edit that does not seem appropriate to either location within or in the article, I attempt to blend in the contribution, which forces me to see the contribution as a puzzle piece that should fit. If the "piece" does not fit, then I reject the edit, but always give a reason in my edit comment or in Talk as I do here. Ricimer, I do not explicitly center you out on this as we all are guilty of such things from time to time. However, I have personally monitored your lashings between Jzanjani. Anonymity on a site like this does not authorize any of us (Jzanjani included) to be rude or assume sole interpretation of the worth of a contribution (as you had done with this last edit). Besides, such a large contribution should be seen by the collective before such a massive deletion.

As we all know, such contributions take a lot of time, and odds are that that time was spent in good intent. While technically allowable, striking out such a large contribution moments after its post is insulting to the contributor since the collective hadn't a chance to chime in. Please restrain from direct attacks (as this was something I could interpret as nothing less), refresh yourself on the Wiki's standards and policies, and continue the insightful edits and contributions you've made such as your Battle pages. Just because BSG is a Wiki about humans that screw themselves over doesn't mean we have to emulate that here. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:38, 7 October 2005 (EDT)
:I see ---Ricimer, October 7, 2005
:Well put, Spencerian. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:28, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

*I have been looking through it again, and feel that "Cylon tactics" is in regards redundant, as well as not very NPOV at all. However, as there has been contention in the past over this, I don't think I should be the one to re-edit it. However, I really would like someone to go through this page again, remove redundant stuff and make it more NPOV. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:10, 1 December 2005 (EST)

=== Notes for future edits ===

*'''Subornation''', or '''suborn''', is a real word meaning:
:<tt>to induce a person to conduct an unlawful act </tt>
::(see [http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=suborn here])
*'''Subordination''', or '''subordinate''' is a distinct word meaning:
:<tt>1. Belonging to a lower or inferior class or rank; secondary.
:2. Subject to the authority or control of another.</tt>
::(see [http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=subordinate here])
*When I'm discussing the number of Humano-Cylons revealed as such, I'm discussing it from the perspective of the human beings in the Fleet and Galactica. Clearly they know of Doral, Conoy, and Valerii. I think it's safe to assume Starbuck has filled the appropriate people in on Simon. They do know of Number Six since Starbuck encountered (and killed one of) several copies on Caprica. Also, Roslin makes a reference to getting one of those young, blond Cylon bodies (a joke but there is only two known blond Cylons, and they don't know about Biers). They definitely do ''not'' know of D'anna Biers. So Galactica's security are on the look-out for five total known Cylon models (Maybe six) - the rest (whether that's seven , six or zero I'll leave to you guys) have yet to be revealed.
**Don't really understand what is going on here, but other's comments on a talk page shouldn't be edited?? Should add a reply. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 12:27, 6 August 2006 (CDT)

==Cleanup==

Do people like the format of the Twelve Colonies series as it stands? I think that the various Cylon articles good deal with a good bit of cleanup and compartmentalization along those lines, with a template linking various articles together. I think we can do much better on Cylon religion, and have certainly received enough information throughout the series (Through Leoben and others) to make a full article of it. Cylon military hardware and tactics could also be spun off. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:40, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

: In my quest to make the Wiki an equally strong TOS resource, I am moving this page to Cylons (RDM) and creating a disambig page for "Cylons" with a redirect from "Cylon". I've already created a Cylon (TOS) page and copied some great data, kudos to Wikipedia. I'd like to disambig the TOS and RDM Twelve Colonies somehow, yes, and clean it up for this article (which I won't tamper with at the moment). I agree that there's more than enough data to make separate articles for Cylon religion, tech stats and tactics. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:49, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

::Suggested plan:
::*Cylon Models (incl. original centurion (museum scene), centurions, content from humano-cylon)
::*Cylon Religion (to be written)
::*Cylon Spacecraft (merge content from relevant articles)
::*Cylon Tactics (Jzanjani's comments)
::Anything else? I'm not sure whether merging the various spacecraft articles is the best idea, although they are very short. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:02, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

I think this would be a good idea; hopefully it'll pay off with more revelations as the series continues. I do have some concerns regarding the conjectural nature of the comments on Cylon "Evolution" and "Religion." There should be plenty of quotes from both Six and Valerii which could make a better section, perhaps even page, on Cylon religion, and I believe more emphasis should be placed on the ''monotheistic'' aspect of it to reflect that contrast in the show. As far as evolution goes, I haven't heard any mention of biological evolution in the show; there are mechanical Cylons and humanoid Cylon clones. This should be written down, there should be links to the corresponding articles, but as far as I can tell Cylons have nothing to do with biological evolution. As for the very valid comment on the glowing spine, don't we have a place for continuity fudges and such?

==Glowing Spines==

Can someone with the DVDs upload a screenshot of Boomer's glowing spine from "Six Degrees of Separation"? It's about 35 minutes into the episode, and was cut from the UK broadcast. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:33, 9 October 2005 (EDT)

== Cylon Religion ==
I'm total newb, as if it won't become obvious.
Without objection, I'd like to add some changes to the cylon religion section.
First, the parallel to historic Judaism should be pointed out. The reference to "the one true God" is more than a description of monotheism, it is precisely the language used in the Pentateuch and other ancient Hebrew texts, and I think the writers of the series mean to suggest this actually (see my upcoming discussions on getting a BSG in Context page going).
I strongly disagree with the assertions about Human, Cylon and God relative perfection quotients. I think they think only that God's plan is perfect. I am unaware of the Cylon's claim of perfection, or even their knowledge of God's plan. In fact, they admit their own imperfection relative to God's injunctive to "be fruitful and multiply," hence their experiments on occupied Capica. I don't believe they consider themselves to be God's "agent of purification," either. If extrapolate from ancient Hebrew thought, though, they may consider themselves "chosen" and that they expect God to deliver their enemies to them.

There it is. --lovemydick (phil k, that is)

:The production team has stated repeatedly that it does not reflect one monotheistic religion in particular, but is a generic monotheistic religion. It is not inspired by Judaism. Christianity and Islam are loosely derived from Judaism, but the Buddhist faith also is monotheist (well, depending on the sect). It in no way was meant to suggest this. Further, '''CHANGE YOUR USER NAME TO SOMETHING APPROPRIATE''' --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:22, 12 November 2005 (EST)

::Public statements writers make about their writings and their intent while writing are often at odds. The prases "One True God" and "Be Fruitful and Multiply" are uniquely Hebrew in origin. Christianity refers most often to Christ, Holy Spirit or Heavenly Father. Islam states "There is no God but Allah" and Buddhism is more a philosophy than a religion.----[[User:Lovemydick|lovemydick]] 17:36, 13 November 2005 (EST)

::Lovemydick, the whole article badly needs a revamp. I have ideas about this but won't have time to implement them for some time yet. In the meantime, if you feel you can add something helpful, by all means do so.

::Ricimer, personal comments should go on user talk pages. And don't use caps. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:14, 13 November 2005 (EST)

== Cylon Religion II ==

Since there appears to be a little controversy, I'm going to propse the following re-write for the Cylon Religion Section.

The Cylon religion seems to suggest ancient Judaism. The reference to "One True God" is of Hebrew origin, as well as ideas of an active and powerful God with a plan for Creation (in this case Cylon and Human alike). Additionally, there are profound similarities to the journey of Gaius Baltar and those of the Hebrew Patriarchs: an angel appearing in Human form which can only be seen by the character, a process of exalting or humiliating depending on the character's willingness to surrendur to God's will, repetion of this process but having begun with a singular, profound experience of God.

The Cylons believe there is a cyclical direction to history, which is a manifestation of God's divine will. The paradox that priests and philosophers have always struggled with is readily apparent in Cylon theology: how can God remain in control and individual free choice remain intact?

It is unclear whether the Cylons believe they have a complete grasp of God's ultimate plan. It is clear that they are aware of their sin in terms of their inability to reproduce and therefore fulfill God's edict to "be fruitful and multiply."

As we meet in time...lovemy(PK)dick

*....No. How is this a re-write? You just restated what you originally said. Again, the Cylon God is not related to Judaism or the Hebraic god Yahweh. Actually, as stated on the religion discussion sections, Baltar's conversion to the Cylon faith seems more like that of evangelical, 'born again' Christianity. And although no theologan I think the idea of "God=Love" is more of a Christian ideology. Long story short, the above re-write didn't solve the initial problem. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:19, 13 November 2005 (EST)

:Your analysis seems generally insightful, but try to keep your remarks pithy and relevant. It is easy to veer into baseless speculation on this topic. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:53, 13 November 2005 (EST)

== Racial naming convention ==

[[Number Three]] often used "Cylon" as one would "human" to describe a race and not a individual in "Downloaded" and several S3 episodes. The [[Hero of the Cylon]] article uses this convention as well. I feel it's acceptable to use "Cylons" or "Cylon", but the use of it should be consistent within any article. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:56, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
:I think that a singular Cylon could refer to that kind of council where one Cylon model votes for its entire model line. Like when they say "We agree...". While it's used to refer to the Cylons in general, it's relatively rare. I'd note it somewhere, but only use it where it's also used in the show. Like with "Hero of the Cylon" or direct quotes from other episodes. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:06, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
::True, she has said that a few times, but far more times has she said "Cylons", and just as well have the other Cylons used the "s". Not to mention "Cylons" is how it's presented in the intro. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:03, 19 April 2007 (CDT)

==Cybernetic Living Organisms==
A few months ago I read a spoiler for "Caprica" that stated that in the pilot episode the meaning of the name "Cylon" would've been revealed, and the writer of the article only remembered 2 of 3 words, stating : "Cybernetic SOMETHING Organism". However, recently I heard someone say they heard in a spoiler that it was "Cybernetic Living Organism", and considering the fact that it fits with the other spoiler I gave it a second glance, but the person couldn't remember where he read the spoiler.

So I'm wondering if anyone has heard of this, and if so from which spoiler source, because if so it could be interesting to at least mention in one of the articles. --03:08, 6 July 2007 (CDT) {{unsigned|Sauron18}}

: It was actually one of the people from Sci-Fi's offices that said it in an interview, I think it was the person responsible for programming. (No one actually connected to the show has said anything, as far as I know.) However, while it does seem to make sense, we may want to ask the question on [[BW:OC]] to verify. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki — ''New''] 09:01, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

::Cool, I'll post the question. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques

2007-07-06T20:02:58Z

Sauron18: /* Cybernetic Living Organism */

{{cleanup}}

{{project|Official Communique's|image=BSG WIKI Official CrewCast.png|shortcut=BW:OC}}

Members of '''''Battlestar Wiki''''': This page is to coordinate all questions to any official members of the cast or crew of "[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]." Please sign your question after you are done. The "summary" of the question should be be first, if any, and then the questions, in short form, should be placed at the bottom. This is to not confuse people and to keep the questions distinctive.

Cast/Crew: These are questions we are seeking answers to. If you have the time, please answer them as best you can. We will move these questions/answers to the correct page once they have been done. You can also check out ''[[:md:Category:Seeking Official Information|Category:Seeking Official Information]]'' for larger items - particularly pictures.

All questions which have been previously answered can be found on the archive pages. Questions get moved to the archives once items and questions stemming from the issue have stopped.

<div align="center">
{| class="toc plainlinks" summary="Notice"
|-
| [[Image:BSG WIKI Caution.png]]
| [[Bradley Thompson]] is very busy. It might be a while before he answers questions.
|}
</div>

{{ArchiveTOC}}

{{Newsection link}}

__TOC__

== Intro, survivor count for Crossroads, Part I ==

The latest episode, "[[Crossroads, Part I]]", did not have an intro movie (time constraints?), nor did it show a survivor count. I personally don't care much about the intro movie (since we get back actual episode content), but there are a lot of die-hard fans here eager to know the survivor count. What was the count for Crossroads, Part I? Is Part II going to have an intro and a survivor count? Have you abolished the intro movie altogether? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:15, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
:The survivor count was on the board during the trial. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 18:54, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
::No, the number of people who escaped New Caprica was on the board. "Crossroads" takes place 2 to 3 months later. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:37, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

== Number of Season Four episodes ==

I realize this was only just announced, and you may not know or be able to comment, but there seems to be confusion over what exactly the 22 episode season order entails. Alongside this announcement, there is confirmation of the made for TV movie, which Sci-Fi is describing as "a special two-hour extended episode." The thing that people are unsure of is whether the movie counts toward the 22 episode count. Will the movie count as two episodes, and then Season Four proper will be the standard 20 episode? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 17:39, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

I don't know how SciFi is going to label the "seasons" but the 22 episodes are broken down as such: 2 for the "Special Extended Episode." We come back to where season three left off at episode #3 and do a cliff-hanger at episode 12. Then we have 10 more to bring the series to its resolution. That adds up to 22. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 21:56, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Faster-Than-Light Stuff ==

Hi there. We know that Ron Moore's goal for the show, as stated in his [[Naturalistic science fiction]] essay, was not to use incredulous science for the show, for instance, faster-than-light travel. We have a little debate if that applied to faster-than-light communications. Several instances appeared where Cylon downloading and communications may move faster than light. We understand that "FTL" travel is apparent-FTL through the [[FTL|wormhole theory]], but has there been a change to how writers handle, say, communications between Cylons at long range (like between one basestar to the infected one in "[[Torn]]"). Did Boomer's consciousness go to a Resurrection Ship and then to Caprica, or traveled farther, relayed, or some other process? If you like, you can see the extended debate in the [[Talk:Faster-than-light communication]] article to note our confusion. If true-FTL does not exist anywhere in the Re-imagined universe, we'll just tack it up to a continuity error that, I feel at least, is for cinematic purposes so a story doesn't get all overly technical or complicated. Thanks. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:07, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
:Let me ask me more precise question: how do the Cylons manage to appear at the Fleet's previous position less than 12 hours after it jumped away? The Fleet must be making multi-lightyear jumps, since their destination (the Ionian nebula) is thousands of lightyears away. Does the radiation signature from the ''[[Daru Mozu]]'' travel faster than light? The radiation signature from the [[Cloud 9]] blast did travel at lightspeed. Do the Cylons have some other way of tracking the Fleet? Or is it simply a continuity error? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 03:48, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
::Note that we can't be sure the Cylons really traced them with the radiation signature. That is only what Six suggested they "might have done." Six might even be lying -- not about the signature's presence, but about how usable it is for tracking -- to cover up the real tracking method. But most of all, the Cylon fleet at Ionia didn't track them there using the radiation signature because the Mining ship was off elsewhere as a decoy.
::Now that said, since an FTL radiation signature seems unlikely, this would imply that if used, the radiation signature somehow allows the Cylons to track where a ship has jumped from its origination point. ie. that somehow the mining ship radiated its target jump coordinates. It's never said, but the colonials clearly believe it is not possible to tell where a ship jumped to, but the only ways to track a jumping ship would be either that, or an FTL transmission from the destination.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 18:05, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::The radiation signature is definitely a buy. Our Tech guy, Kevin Grazier (who put the cameras on Cassini) came up with a more accurate explanation (after all, space is chock full of radiation and FTL emanations would get lost in the clutter), but because radiation sounded simpler, that's what ended up in the show. Originally, the sick ship in Torn was detected by scouts sent by the main unit of the Cylon fleet and the message relayed back to them when the scouts returned. I'm not sure if that bit of legwork remained in the final cut. Finally, there might still be Cylon agents in the colonial fleet, tracking devices left on the ships from New Caprica - the Cylons aren't going to give up all their technological secrets that easily, especially regarding the transmission of the massive amounts of data involved in the resurrection process -- [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:06, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Identity of the Final Five ==

Out of curosity, how long have you guys known who the final five are? I know Ron Moore's made comments that indicate that these were more recent decisions, but I was just curious at what point did you guys decide on who were going to be Cylons, and what really went into that decision. Thanks! [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 16:55, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

::Four of the five were recent. If memory serves, the fifth (which may change) we've been kicking around since about the end of Season One. -- [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:08, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Production numbers ==

There is a question about the actual production numbers behind the series. For instance, there is some information on the internet where the production numbers differ. For instance, some are formatted like ("T2701") -- an alleged production number for "[[Occupation]]" -- while others are formatted as 03001 (or even 301). Just wanted to know what exactly the actual "production number" should look like. Thanks Bradley! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:58, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

: I believe that the T27nn numbers are internal Warner Bros. numbers for the Comcast tapes that they made and fed to Comcast. I believe the 030nn numbers correspond to the production office assignments to the episodes, i.e., where 03019 is the production number for 'Crossroads, Part 2'. Thanks for helping in clearing this up.[[User:Vidiot|Vidiot]] 01:11, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

:::Sorry, I don't have that answer. Here we see them as "Season 4/ Episode 5 /405 / 04005. The other numbers arrive from a mysterious source. And the financial paperwork tends to have numbers that are altogether different. Let me know what you find out. -- [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:11, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

::::Thank you for your efforts! Interesting how an episode can have so many different numbers though... Gotta love paperwork! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki — ''New''] 19:26, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

== Xeno vs Zeno Fenner (Dirty Hands) ==

Currently we have him as "[[Xeno Fenner|Xeno]]", but the SciFi website lists him as "Zeno". Do you know which version is correct? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:07, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

::The shooting script has him listed as Xeno Fenner. Any changes beyond that are news to me. -- [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:13, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Cylon numbers ==

Although we've been flooded with Cylon identities lately (we now know 11 of the 12 models), we still know only four numbers ([[Number Three|Three]], [[Number Five|Five]], [[Number Six|Six]] and [[Number Eight|Eight]]). Could you enlighten us as to the numbers of the other seven known Cylons? If you can't tell us that, can you at least tell us whether these numbers will be revealed in [[Season 4 (2008)|Season Four]]? It would also be interesting to know if the one remaining Cylon is indeed Number One, as we suspected. Thanks in advance. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 11:24, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

::We have deliberately not nailed those numbers down. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:15, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Centurions and the final five ==

We already know [[Centurion]]s are hard-coded not to hurt the Significant Seven. Does the same go for the [[final five]]? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 11:51, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
:We've seen em shoot at Anders, so I'd say no. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:44, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
::They've also shot at Athena, though in neither case have they hit the target Cylon. Also, it hasn't been stated that they are hard-coded to not hurt the Seven (unless ordered, as by Three), only that they aren't sentient enough to rebel against them. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:34, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Alright, rephrase: do the Centurions 'know' the final five? Would they take orders from them? Or are they just as ignorant as the Seven? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 04:17, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
::::Well it seems logical that the Seven programmed the Centurions, so I don't think the Centurions would know what the Seven don't. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:11, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::To be fair that's actually quite the assumption; the Significant Seven don't know who programmed them, so I don't think it's a stretch to consider that they don't know who did the base program of the Centurions either. There's enough to go either way with it, so I think the question given here is a valid one. [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 15:54, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::Actually that's a good point. for some reason I assumed the Seven programmed the rest. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:44, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

:This thread has pretty much covered everything we've decided to let slip. -- [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:17, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

==Adama/Tigh Meeting==
Hello, Mr. Thompson. Given the recent revelations about Tigh a lot of people have become interested on when he met Adama, but when we look back we have 2 conflicting sources. So I was wondering if you could maybe tell us which is considered to be the real one? Without revealing anything of course.

Now, we saw them meet in the flashbacks in “Scattered”, which are mentioned in the podcast [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Podcast:Scattered] to be 20 years before the miniseries, and this also seems to fit with how they look and such.

However, in “Torn” Adama says he has known Tigh for 30 years, and though admittedly it’s now technically 22-23 years after their official meeting, “30” is still a long way. It’s quite possible that Adama was dramatizing for the purpose of connecting to Tigh, but either way it creates doubt.

So my question was, is the timeline we were originally presented the official one or is it different? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:18, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

:::Adama is exaggerating for effect. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:20, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

::::Awesome, thank you for taking the time :) --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 00:23, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

== Spelling of carom and meaning of DRADIS ==

There has been some [[Talk:Dradis|debate]] recently as to how [[carom]] is spelled. Some say carom, some karam, and some charagm. The subtitles spell it as carom, are they right? How do the scripts spell it? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 02:32, 16 April 2007 (CDT)

And for that matter, do you have consistent meaning of "DRADIS"? We currently have "Direction, RAnge and DIStance" which fits with recon photography, but is somewhat redundant. Someone suggested "Direction, Right Ascension and DISstance" which would fit as well. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:46, 16 April 2007 (CDT)

:I thought DRADIS meant "Direction and RADial DIStance," which would make perfect sense.
--[[User:123home123|123home123]] 03:25, 3 June 2007 (CDT)

::Carom is, well, carom. Not sure about dradis, but since you know what it does... - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:22, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Roslin and the Admiral ==

Following on from the discussion at [[Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation]]... in the [[Podcast:Frak Party Q and A|frak party podcast]], RDM said that he decided against Mary and Edward being in the four revealed Cylons because it would take something away from the series. Does this mean that unequivocally the Admiral and Roslin are not the final Cylon? --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 04:32, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

::Nothing's unequivocal until you see it on the screen. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:23, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Gun Nomenclature-revisited ==

In a previous article there seemed to be a writing staff debate on what the various types of capital and Viper guns were...some people on the staff appeared to prefer railguns and some chemical weapons. You can plausibly have both in the setting, here's how and why.

The only needed science is that real world railguns can theoretically acheive higher muzzle velocities than chemical weapons, but the electrical power sources for a rail gun are very large and heavy. So:

-Vipers and Raiders would carry chemically propelled rounds b/c they cannot mount the necessary power supplies. Also, they do not need the higher muzzle velocities of railguns - Vipers have higher closing velocities on their targets...ie. the Viper's drives provide aprt of the shell's velocity.

-Battlestar batteries - These vessels fight at low velocities relative to other cap ships. Also, they carry thicker armor. Hence, they need higher velocity shells to damage similarly armored targets. Also, BSG's are large enough to carry large power supplies.

Your art staff needn't worry either, actual railguns produce visible muzzle flash due to the vaporization of portions of the round
[http://www.eng.auburn.edu/department/ece/railgun/ Auburn railgun firing]

Hope this helps...assuming the debate is still going on. [[User:Feld|Feld]] 19:04, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

== What is "Razor"? ==

Dear Mr. Thompson, the first S4 casting information [http://www.sidesexpress.com/se_index.cfm?locid=5&task=type&l=5&c=battlestar#sr has surfaced]. The sheets say #401/402 "Razor" will feature Young Helena (Cain?) and Helena's father, among others. Could you please clarify whether this information refers to the TV movie about the ''Pegasus'' or to the genuine S4 premiere? -- [[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 17:20, 3 May 2007 (CDT)
: According to [http://www.myentertainmentworld.com/mew/audition_film-tv.html#sr this] is safe to say that Razor is TV Movie about Pegasus. --[[User:Deus|Deus]] 15:12, 6 May 2007 (CDT)
:: Aah, I just love your scoops. :-) --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 15:30, 6 May 2007 (CDT)
:::Thanks, but unfortunately this one is not mine... It was found by Countess Persephone at Ragnar Anchorage.--[[User:Deus|Deus]] 16:21, 6 May 2007 (CDT)
:::: What I find interesting is that they are casting the role of the Hybrid (probably a Basestar CPU [[Hybrid]], but it could be something else), meaning it may be someone other than Tiffany Lyndall-Knight. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:50, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
::::: OK, I'd say that [http://nbcumv.com/distribution/release_detail.nbc/scifi-20070601000000-039galactica039.html?international=1#sr this] confirms the Razor title... --[[User:Deus|Deus]] 19:04, 3 June 2007 (CDT)
::::::Even the Sci Fi Channel can err, and has. That same article shows character names, and most of them are incorrectly spelled. Such information has changed at the last minute before, and trying to "lock" it down before the episode is advertised on-screen is likely to burn us. Right now, the movie article has a redirect link with this title, so for now we'll just leave things as-is for the article. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:14, 3 June 2007 (CDT)

The Season 4 Premiere is Episode #3 - but Razor will reveal something that will affect what happens in Season 4 - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:26, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

==Season 4 First Episode Title==

The same source cited above by Pedda also names "[[He That Believath In Me]]" as the title for the first [[Season 4]] episode. Is this name correct? Is the misspelling intentional? TIA. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:10, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

:: No, we don't spell quite that badly. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:27, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
:::Do you mean that "[[He That Believeth In Me]]" is the correct title? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:08, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

== Radio/"Wireless" interference effect? ==

Hi. I am curious in how this effect was produced, namely the effect heard in various scenes such as the Galactica communicating with its fighters as well as the wireless stand off dialog between Adama and Cain. Due to the rather offside nature of this question, I am aware that it is unlikely to find a guide of such, but I do seek ways in producing this somewhat interesting effect for things like fanmade game mods - for this effect does provide a very indepth feeling of using "antique" tech. I am referring to that double tone disorted voice during speech over commlines. Thank you for any hints, links, advicce. I "apollo"gize ;) for the unusual question - I hope it is not too far out what I am asking.
On the side note, I must say being a writer for BSG must be fun, wish I could something alike. --[[User:Lork|Lork]] 06:05, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

:: It's a great question, one that the sound and post guys have proudly explained to me -- they actually transmit the dialogue over a wireless and record the result from the receiver. The static, though controllable, is the real deal. And yes, writing for Battlestar is the best job in the world. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:31, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

::: It's the distortion from transmission using single-sideband modulation. FM and AM don't produce that sort of distortion. Ham radio guys know all about it. I'm not sure it can be faked for a game mod but you may be able to get some hams to help you out. [[User:Mward|Mward]] 08:35, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
::::Well, technically SSBM is a special case of AM. The most simple way to get a single-sideband is passing an amplitude modulated signal through a bandpass and thus removing one of the duplicated sidebands. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:47, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

:::::I wasn't attempting to explain it, just identify it. I figured the original poster could look it up. Doing that sort of conversion in a computer won't result in the distortion you hear on the show. That's caused by being slightly off-frequency or fiddling with the tuner while transmitting or receiving. As far as communications go, it's not very hard to tune a radio and so the effect on the series is kind of out of place. I doubt you could chalk it up to relativistic doppler effect since most of the time the 2 ships transmitting aren't moving at appreciable fractions of light speed away or towards eachother. However, I will say as a fan, the cinematic effect is really cool and adds to the air of techy spaciness the show has. [[User:Mward|Mward]] 09:31, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

:Many thanks! [[User:Lork|Lork]] 13:35, 24 June 2007 (CDT)

== Battlestar Night Flight/(Era)smus ==

Due to the discussions along [[Talk:Night Flight]] and this [[Sci Fi Channel|Sci Fi]] thread ([http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2275066 New battlestar name discovered]), I'm rather surprised no one bothered confirming this just yet: In the episode, [[Home, Part I]], two battlestars are mentioned in Adama's paperwork [[Image:Aerilon proof2.jpg|thumb|The battlestar's name on a personnel file.]]: ''[[Night Flight]]'' and the other, through analysis, to be ''[[Erasmus]]''. Do you know if ''Erasmus'' is correct and if you know of any other information concerning these choices (quite frankly ''Night Flight'' reminds me too much of ''[[w:Knight Rider|Knight Rider]]''). [[User:DrWho42|DrWho42]] 23:14, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

:::The Art Department, who comes up with all this stuff, is very creative. Wait till you see the magazine about paragliding on Scorpia - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 23:26, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
::::I had been hoping the Night Flight thing was a Led Zeppelin reference. Oh well :) --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:28, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

==Cybernetic Living Organism==
Hello, Mr. Thompson, we wanted to ask you a question regarding the meaning of the word "Cylon".

When we began getting reports and such about the proposed spin-off "Caprica", amongst them was the news that we would learn what the word "Cylon" meant by the end of the pilot. Amongst this information we got a partial name, and then later on more was revealed: "Cybernetic Living Organism". However, we do not know if it is truly the one you, the writers, intend to use, or if it was just a rumor. Is "Cybernetic Living Organism" the canonical origin behind the word "Cylon", or was this just a rumor/old version?

Thank you for your time. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:02, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Cylons (RDM)/Archive 1

2007-07-06T08:08:45Z

Sauron18: /*Cybernetic Living Organisms*/

Talk:Razor/Archive2

2007-06-23T22:53:08Z

Sauron18: /* Casting sheets (SPOILERS!) */

We'll need to retitle this article when we get a proper title that's not ambigous as "Battlestar Galactica (DVD movie)". The article will also need to become an episode summary as well. Maybe it may be better to rename this as "Battlestar Galactica (2007 DVD movie)" to avoid confusion with the [[Miniseries]] and other DVD releases. -- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:02, 17 April 2007 (CDT) ([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contribs]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|WonderNumbers]])

:I brought it in line with the standard episode guide format for now. Adding the year number is a good idea for now, but later we'll probably have a real name --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:06, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
::I agree. Battlestar Galactica (2007 DVD movie) would be good if we don't get an official title. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 11:09, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Right. I'll rename it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:56, 17 April 2007 (CDT)([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contribs]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|WonderNumbers]])

== Numbering and prev/next ==
How are we gonna number this one? [[4.00]] currently redirects here, but if that's the number we're going with, it should be [[400]] (in line with [[101]] through [[320]]). Or are we gonna pull another webisode and not number it at all? Also, the webisodes are missing from the episode guides' Prev/Next sequence. Is this one gonna be included? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 11:09, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
:400 is possible. But do we need to determine that right now? We could as well wait until some information about it is known. Agree though, that the webisodes should be in the sequence. I'll see to that... --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:11, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
::We can wait, just wanted to point out we'll want a number at some point. Thanks for the sequence thingy, I could've fixed it myself but wondered whether they were left out intentionally (because there's no critical story in them, apart from Nora's death which is recapped in [[Occupation]]).--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 11:33, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

Since Joe made 4.01 redirect here, the episode data needs to be changed to 4.01 too. And the rest of the episodes after it, to off course (well, one for now). For what it's worth the casting sides (see below), call it 4.01 and 4.02. That's probably correct, since it's TWO episodes that belong together - possibly shown as one movie. So "He That Believeth In Me" would be 4.03 --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:04, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
: That's what I've figured, given what I've read thus far. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki — ''New''] 16:10, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

== "Razor" ==

<s>I recently noticed [[Razor]] being created as a redirect to this page. Is "Razor" this movie's working title? Do we have a source for that?</s> [http://www.sidesexpress.com/se_index.cfm?locid=5&task=type&l=5&c=battlestar#sr Never mind]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 08:45, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

If the official name is Razor, though, this page should be renamed to "Razor". Could someone on Sci Fi Forums (or somewhere else) ask for confirmation on the Razor and HTBIM titles? I've asked on [[BW:OC]], but that page isn't viewed very much. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 11:09, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

:Well, the [http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?category=0&id=41709&type=0 press release confirming the last season] drops the "Razor" title. Can we construe this as confirmation, or at least enough to justify a move? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 14:10, 1 June 2007 (CDT)

::Given that there remains no official title, the working title redirect is just fine for the wiki's needs, and keeps it more searchable that our title here. It is not likely we'll get an official title (like the episodes) until they are officially announced. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:45, 1 June 2007 (CDT)

:::Does Sci-FI Wire not count as an official source? I would think a press release from the network would be official enough to warrant the article's name change. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 16:27, 4 June 2007 (CDT)

::::It's the ''writers'' that ultimately choose the name. The episode "[[Home]]" became a two-parter at the last minute. Season 3 had a sudden change for its very first episodes. Sci Fi's own "official web site" lists ship information with numerous errors. Heck, the press release for the series end was filled with heinous errors. It is best to wait and not jump ahead. Again....we already have a redirect for any searches on the term of "Razor", so we're covered. We reverse the redirect once we see the name on the TV schedule. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:16, 4 June 2007 (CDT)

According to [[http://www.darkhorizons.com/news07/070608j.php this]] Ron Moore confirmed the title at the LA Q&A event. It's second hand, but straight from the head honcho. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:51, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

: Since RDM confirmed it, it's good, until it gets changed. Remember episode titles can change right up until the episode airs. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki — ''New''] 18:47, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

== Sequence numbers ==

[http://www.sidesexpress.com/se_index.cfm?locid=5&task=type&l=5&c=battlestar&p=1#sr This source] cites 401 and 402 as the sequence numbers for "Razor", and 403 for "[[He That Believath In Me]]". Are we gonna follow this scheme? Ask Brad? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:11, 21 May 2007 (CDT)
:We could just hold off on episode numbers until something definite is known. For know we can just use episode names, and add the numbers later. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:22, 21 May 2007 (CDT)
::Obviously, since this is the last season, we don't need any official numbering policy and can continue to implement episode numbering on an ad-hoc basis. The trouble is where official resources disagree (the third season podcasts were consistantly numbered as if "Occupation/Precipice" were two episodes, while on said podcasts, RDM consistantly referred to them as if "Occupation/Precipice" were a single episode). My personal opinion is that it makes the most sense to label each hour of the season with its own production code, and to give mid-season ancillary material such as "The Resistance" and "Razor" the X.00 designation. That being said, we should obviously defer to the production staff ''if they follow a consistant practice''. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:49, 5 June 2007 (CDT)
:::I agree. Let's wait for the Season 4 podcasts to hear what number RDM gives them. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 15:30, 5 June 2007 (CDT)

== Casting sheets (SPOILERS!) ==

Get [http://rapidshare.com/files/30443459/Kendra_7pgs.pdf.html this] and [http://rapidshare.com/files/30443433/Young_Adama_4pgs.pdf.html this]

1.) Flashbacks to the Cylon attack from ''Pegasus'''s point of view. It counterpoints Adama by showing how Cain reacted to the news. The new character, Kendra Shaw, is shellshocked at first, but quickly pulls herself together. Scenes showing the destroyed Colonial Fleet.

After ''Pegasus'' joins the Fleet, Lee Adama finds himself reviewing herself. Similar to Starbuck she has some discipline problems and got busted by Fisk and Garner. Since he doesn't give a damn about those two and needs someone from ''Pegasus'' to work with him, he promoted her to be his XO.

2.) Flashback to the first Cylon War with a young William Adama flying a Viper sortie. Helena Cain is a child and living through an attack on her home colony of Tauron. The battlestar ''Columbia'' is destroyed (this must be the predecessor of the one destroyed in the second war). In the course of the fight Adama is shot down on some planet and somehow finds a lab where the Cylons experimented on humans. He sees on the of new basestars. This is directly before the Armistice, which is declared before he can do something about it.

All very interesting, but hard to source. And still subject to change. It tracks with everything else known though.

Also according to IMDB [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1089338/ this] is the actress to play Kendra Shaw. And I know that this isn't entirely reliable. Looks hot though :) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:21, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
:The trailer preview that aired yesterday confirms that this is, indeed, the actress, or at least someone who looks A LOT like her. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:53, 23 June 2007 (CDT)

== Director ==

Where has it been cited that Félix Enríquez Alcalá is going to direct? There's no mention of this within the body of the article. Keep in mind that I haven't listened to the audiofile, and the two ''TV Week'' links appear to be dead. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 12:59, 9 June 2007 (CDT)

== SciFy Portal ==

http://www.syfyportal.com/news423777.html

According to this Cain and Gina were lovers. In her childhood Cain's family were attacked by Cylons (which fits perfectly with the script excerpt above) and she had to make a decision to save herself or her sister. And the TOS Centurions will be seen extensively in full CGI glory.

The article says that the source is anonymous though. Still, it sounds very plausible. Include or not? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:34, 18 June 2007 (CDT)

Talk:God (RDM)/Archive 1

2007-06-18T21:39:01Z

Sauron18: /* "Scientific Explanation" Section */

Talk:God (RDM)/Archive 1

2007-06-18T21:38:28Z

Sauron18: /*"Scientific Explanation" Section*/

Talk:Saul Tigh/Archive 1

2007-06-18T21:36:12Z

Sauron18: /* New image */

==Age?==

The profile states that he is in his "50s" and the article says that he is

:"A veteran in his mid-40s to early 50s"

In the commentary for ''[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]'', [[Ronald D. Moore|Ron Moore]] states that [[William Adama|Adama]] is younger than Tigh, and in addition to this, the fact that the [[Cylon War]] took place 40 years ago would obviously mean that he's probably not in his 50s, and definitely not in his mid-40s. Unless someone can argue against it, I'm changing these portions of the article. --[[User:Palpatine|Palpatine]] 22:26, 26 October 2005 (EDT)

:We're probalby going to get around to removing age information from most of the character articles soon. See [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:31, 27 October 2005 (EDT)

::Even after completely discounting Adama's supposed age of 61 as a reference point, it's still reasonable to assume that both of them are in their 60s, due to reasons I already went into. --[[User:Palpatine|Palpatine]] 23:49, 27 October 2005 (EDT)

:::Well. Remember that the war lasted for about 12 years (the Articles of Colonization were signed 52 years ago, which Moore [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/04/index.html#a000025 says] is coincident with the outbreak of hostilities, the war explicitly ended 40 years ago). If we guess that the age to enlist in the colonial military is 18, and Adama enlisted at the start, that would make him at most 70. If Tigh enlisted in the war's last year, that would make him at least 58.

:::Beyond that, I'm not sure what we can say with much certainty. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:26, 28 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: It might be asserted that joinin' age is lower in the Colonies. Is it not 16 in some European nations? I could be wrong. Of course, heck, the lifespans of Colonials could be vastly different from ours. They drive space ships routinely. They have FLT drives. Surely they have some medical technologies that we don't. Maybe they just live longer. This has no basis whatsoever on anything seen on screen, but it's possible, which means that any guesses we make of age based on the actors' appearences is fairly irrelevant. Of course... 70 would be about right for retiring, wouldn't it? But if Tigh is older, why hadn't he retired already? Or was Adama getting an early retirement? In which case, is 70 an ''early'' retirement? That might speak to Colonial life expectancy. Anyway... most of that is just rambling. --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:23, 28 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::Colonial military age is up to debate as Day stated, but we don't have to guess about when Adama joined the military. Moore also said in the same commentary I already referenced that he joined as a pilot in the last days of the war, which we can say with certainty was approximately 40 years ago. Tigh was also specifically said to have been slightly older than, and had seen more combat than Adama. Adding all of this together, we still come to the conclusion that both of them are most likely in their 60s. 10 years is a pretty safe margin of error. --[[User:Palpatine|Palpatine]] 02:09, 29 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::I'll have to double check that. It seems odd for Saul to refer to Bill as "the old man" if he's not at least a few years younger. Another interesting question - in our military, there's usually a provision for forced retirement if you get passed over for promotion for enough years. Does anyone know more about that? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:41, 29 October 2005 (EDT)

My main problem with age (per recent edits) is the lack of consistency between bios. We may be able to get Tigh's down to within a few years, but it's still awfully sloppy, and other pages aren't much better. My edits were based on this thread (now that Peter located it for me). But let consensus rule...calculating ages aren't my specialty. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:27, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:How long is a colonial year anyway? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:23, 20 December 2006 (CST)

:: Same as an Earth year. See [[Timeline (RDM)#Notes]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:31, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Rating==
According to a deleted scene on the season 2 dvds, Tigh was a petty officer, an assistant gunner's mate, and still a teenager when his ship got boarded. This took place very early in the war and Tigh was still a teenager (more like Cally in age than Tyrol). Also, in the last week of the war, Adama was serving on the Galactica when it was boarded and the Cylons used the same tactics as in Valley of Darkness. Adama told Tigh what happened over a drink and this is how Tigh knew what was happening. In the boarding he was in, he was assigned to guard the ship's magazines. I'll add stuff to the main page later, just wanted to get y'alls opinion on this. It's late.--[[User:Talos|Talos]] 00:53, 27 December 2005 (EST)

:Ricimer and I had an extended conversation about this on [[Talk:Cylon War]] which you may wish to refer to. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:22, 27 December 2005 (EST)
::Thanks, I had missed that. It was just something I noticed while watching my new dvds yesterday. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 11:38, 27 December 2005 (EST)

== Picture? ==

I'm all for changing the pictures in the template to the promotional thing if the one we had was only so-so, but I really liked Tigh's picture, so... Why go and change them systematically? Anyone else find this somewhat rash? --[[User:Day|Day]] 22:27, 28 December 2005 (EST)

:I changed the character bio photo for consistency with many of the character bios elsewhere that started to use their promo pics. This was completely arbitrary, so if the collective says to use another picture, please do so. I think I was also trying to save it from the Island of Misfit Images, I think. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:01, 23 January 2006 (EST)

::One of them will be a misfit either way (unless we find a place for the other). But I appreciate people looking at and adopting images though... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:19, 23 January 2006 (EST)

::: I think consistancy is well and good, but I think consistantly cool photos are better than consistantly "promo" photos. And if we decided to use promo stuff, we'd have to be inconsistant for the more minor characters. --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:17, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::I concur. Consistantly cool is better than consistantly "promo". Although, in the name of consistancy I wonder if it might be a good idea to establish guidelines on the type of shots we're looking for (on the character project maybe?). Personally, I look for a good 8x10 head and shoulders shot that's at least two hundred pixels wide, that doesn't have any other characters significantly in the shot (to avoid confusion). While a promo standard could be established ("use the promo shot if you've got it"), I think the show is capable of producing shots that are more representative of "the character", and cooler. Also, a character shot that illustrates/represents something in the bio or description might have more value than "actor posing for a promo shot". The promo shots can look a look a lot more polished sometimes, but with the advent of the DVD release and some of the high-resolution captures that are taken today, I think they may be obsolete. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:53, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== Images ==

I feel like we may be going a bit over-board on the number of pics on this page. I've a high-speed connection, but I don't want to alienate dial-up users and I don't want to angery any lawyers by skirting too close to "fair use". If I had to get rid of one, I'd say delete the (very dark) pic near the top with the "If the crew doesn't hate the XO..." quote. It's not a very quality shot.

Secondarily, I feel like the shot of Boomer and Tigh under "Tigh in Command" is huge. It also appears on the [[Scattered]] page, I think it should be replaced with the much-less-tall [[:image:Scattered-Tigh.jpg]]. Now, I may be a bit biased towards that one because I uploaded it, but I also think it displays wonderfully Tigh's overwhelmed feeling upon taking command. What do others think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:02, 20 January 2006 (EST)

*I think someone needs to get a screencap in [[Scar]] when Tigh has a really stupid grin on his face while Lt. Thrace walks up to Kat near the end. I might do it when I have a chance, but I don't feel like it right now.--[[User:Deadlygopher|Deadlygopher]] 02:25, 4 February 2006 (EST)

== Occupation and Resistance ==

Since we will probably be adding this section to a lot of characters, is "Occupation and Resistance" OK? --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:13, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
: I find this acceptable. What does everyone else have to say? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:21, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
::Sounds good to me. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:31, 6 September 2006 (CDT)

== Call Sign ==

I don't know if it is just being skipped over or because it has never been mentioned, but since he did have a run as a Viper Pilot there seems to be no call sign for it. Does anyone know if there is information available as to his call sign? I question this because he is the only person known as a viper pilot who does not have their call sign name. I would recommend that it be added in the sub-profile "Call Sign: Unknown." Even Admiral Adama has his displayed. Thoughts? --[[User:AJFederation|AJFederation]] 15:55, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
: AJ, in response to your question, Tigh's call sign has never been mentioned. So we haven't added it. As for saying "Call Sign:Unknown" in the data box, we don't fill out forms in the databox with things such as unknown. If it is unknown, then the field is left blank and therefore undefined, so as to not clutter the infobox with "unknown"s for things we don't know about. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:08, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
::Perhpas we should add this to the [[BW:OC]] page? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 05:08, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

== Rank ==

Clearly he is a Colonel while serving aboard the Galactica. I wonder, however, if he should not have been promoted to General at the after the murder of Fisk (Pegasus Commander who took over after Adm Cain). I am a little fuzzy as to the exact ranking structure for the marines. However, if Tigh is Colonel over the marines on the Galactica and there is no Colonel on the Pegasus does it not make the most sense that he would be promoted to General in the same way that Adama was promoted to Admiral? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 00:09, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:The rank structure in Galactica is not the same as modern day militaries. "Colonel" is a rank in the fleet, roughly analogous to Captain in the US Navy. The rank structure in BSG has naval and army/airforce ranks mixed in. See [[Military Ranks (RDM)]] for further info. So, in short, no- Tigh should not have been promoted to "General", since that's not a rank in the BSG universe. "Colonel" is the rank generally held by a ship's Executive Officer. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 05:06, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:: This makes much more sense. My only remaining questions is why was Lee Adama only a major when Adm Adama placed him on the Pegasus? Should not his position be Col for the role he was playing? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 12:44, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:::Lee he wasn't XO in "The Captain's Hand". He was only sent there to look after Garner and the rest of the crew, but he was never referred to as XO. Garner even told him that he isn't really part of the crew, and there is a deleted scene where Tigh asks Adama if he is still thinking about making Lee XO. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:01, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:::Not necessarily. Even today, a vessel's master does not need to hold the rank of "Captain" (though he or she will still be called that). By the same token, an Executive Officer does not ''need'' to be a Colonel. Think of it this way- most XO's in today's navies hold the rank of Commander or equivalent, while the CO is a Captain. However, this is not set in stone. A CO may be a Lieutenant Commander, and their XO a Lieutenant. The reason I said that the XO was generally a Colonel is because we've seen two XO's on screen who both held the rank- that doesn't mean that every XO in the Fleet is a Colonel. Does that make sense? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 12:54, 27 September 2006 (CDT)
:::The XO and Commander could even be the same rank, position keeping the chain of command intact. I've seen aircraft carriers where both the Captain and XO are O-6 Captains. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 15:34, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:As above. Tigh isn't a Marine just because he has a modern Army/Marine rank. He's in Colonial Fleet like Adama, wears a CF uniform and the next rank for him would be Commander. For NCOs and enlisted the Marines use the same ranks as today. The excact structure of their officer ranks is unknown.--[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:25, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

== Ol' One-Eye ==

I'm wondering if we should make mention of the fact that Tigh's been maimed by the Cylons during his time in captivity so that he only has one eye now. This is, of course, assuming that it's true and that it's not "just something" he told Tyrol and Anders to get them going.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 02:00, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

:Speaking of Tigh's eye, should there be a reference to the Germanic/Norse god Wotan/Woden? I really know very little about mythology, but I read that this god sacrificed his eye so that he could gain wisdom. Fitting? Ironic? Irrelevant? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:14, 2 December 2006 (CST)

== New image ==

Should [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000kp3hg/g248 this] be made the new image, now that Tigh is ol' one-eye? --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 17:07, 30 October 2006 (CST)
:I think, given how we can find HD caps for most of the season now, that we should perhaps try and find an image of Tigh in which he looks a bit more composed and with his formal eye-patch and all. If at least so that he looks more respectable and a little less like a one-eyed drunk. Promos for next season will probably have him updated with all the new features he got this last season, but until then I would propose we search for a good and composed Eye-Patched Tigh. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:06, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
::I agree. One possibility is when he returns to duty in "[[The Passage]]". He looks really respectable and formal there. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:16, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
:::I found one that I really liked, and placed it there, if at least to replace the other one in the meantime, but I'll keep an eye (no pun) out for more, especially if I find HD caps for the finale, since that had it's fair share of Tigh-Moments. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:36, 18 June 2007 (CDT)

== Position ==

I think someone is jumping the gun a little here. Helo is still the First officer of Galactica, as far as I know, yet the table claims Tigh is the current first officer. Is he and if so when was he reinstated--[[User:Ireboi|Ireboi]] 07:35, 5 December 2006 (CST)

== Outdated ==

This article is severely outdated; it seems it hasn't been updated since "[[The Passage]]", save for one small addition today from "[[Maelstrom]]". Someone should add stuff from "[[The Eye of Jupiter]]" through "[[Crossroads, Part I]]". (Before you start asking why I'm not volunteering, it's 22:30 over here and I noticed the incompleteness of this article on my evening pass.) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 16:27, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
: I imagine that the article would be updated after the end of the season, after which we'll have to go through and concise all the major character articles anyway. (see [[BW:TANK|The think tank for more.]]) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:05, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
::True. My point was more that this article has more backlog than most of the bios, which are updated after every episode. Of course this is a season break job, but I wanted to point out that this article has serious backlog, more so than most of the other articles. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 10:24, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Saul Tigh

2007-06-18T21:32:08Z

Sauron18: Main Image

{{Character Data
|photo= Saul Tigh.jpg
|age= Alledgedly 65-71
|colony= Aerelon
|birthname=
|callsign=
|seen= Miniseries
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|children= None
|marital status=Widower, formerly married to [[Ellen Tigh]]†
|role= Executive Officer, [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]''
|rank= Colonel
|actor= [[Michael Hogan]]
|cylon= y
|name= Saul Tigh
}}

'''Saul Tigh''' is the [[Executive Officer]] (XO) of ''[[Galactica]]'', as well as frequently serving as acting Commander in the place of [[William Adama]]. Before that, he served as Adama's XO on the battlestar ''[[Valkyrie]]''. A tough but troubled man with a long history of alcoholism, Tigh has served in the [[Colonial Fleet]] since his teenage years, seeing action in both [[Cylon War]]s. He is a widower of the deceased [[Ellen Tigh]].

== Biography ==

=== Background ===
Tigh was supposedly born on the colony of [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]].<ref name="aerelon">"Cylon Intelligence Report: Personnel File: Saul Tigh." Battlestar Galactica: The Official Magazine. Feb./Mar. 2006: 62.</ref> (He has recently been revealed as a Cylon presumably making this point moot). A veteran of the Cylon War, Tigh is sometimes estranged from his wife Ellen and has been somewhat disillusioned with his career, seeking refuge in alcoholism - a move which has led many in the crew to view him with contempt ([[Miniseries]], "[[33]]").

He is supposedly a third-generation Colonial soldier. [[Saul Tigh (father of)|His alledged father]] was a decorated fighter pilot killed in combat and [[Saul Tigh (grandfather of)|his grandfather]] served under President [[Mueller (president)|Mueller]]. According to [[Billy Keikeya]], Tigh was a published military historian until personal problems became apparent ([[Miniseries]], [[List of Deleted Scenes (RDM)|deleted scene]]).

Tigh began his career as a deckhand<ref name="deckhand">''Ibid''. "Saul Tigh entered the fleet as a deckhand but rose through the ranks and was a CPO (Chief Petty Officer) by the time the First Cylon War broke out."</ref>. By the second year of the first [[Cylon War]], he was serving as a gunner's mate onboard the ''[[Brenik]]''. His ship was boarded by the Cylons where he and others fought in hand to hand combat, during the bloodiest time of that war. It was during this battle that he saw his first dead man, [[Duncan Rafferty]], who was violently vivisected by Centurions ([http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/202/deleted1.html deleted scene], [[Valley of Darkness]]). His ship was subsequently destroyed and he survived. He was transferred to another unnamed ship, which succumbed to a similar fate as his original ship. Having borne witness to many a bloody combat, he became emotionally scarred, which had, among other impetuses, led him to alcoholism.
[[Image:Tighadama.jpg|Tigh and Adama's first meeting.|left|thumb]]

Tigh eventually achieved the rank of Chief Petty Officer ([[Galen Tyrol]]'s position on ''Galactica''). When Viper pilot numbers began running low in the war, Tigh was drafted into Colonial Officer Candidate School and was reassigned as a Viper pilot.<ref>{{cite rdm podcast|episode=Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down}}</ref> As a pilot, he demonstrated considerable skill, earning several medals while posted aboard the battlestar ''[[Athena (Battlestar)|Athena]]''.<ref name="athena">''Ibid''. "Tigh joined the Colonial Officer Candidate School and was reassigned as a Viper pilot, something he excelled in, earning a string of medals in his post aboard the battlestar Athena."</ref>

After the cessation of hostilities, he was dismissed from service and eked out an existence as a deckhand aboard a commercial freighter. Tigh clearly experienced signs of post-traumatic stress disorder; he commented that every time he smelled grease or machine oil he would nearly vomit, as this smell reminded him of the "stink" of Centurions ([[Valley of Darkness]], [[List of Deleted Scenes|deleted scene]]). While on board, he drowned himself in alcohol and, after a time, about 20 years after the War, encountered [[William Adama]], who had not seen as much combat experience as Tigh himself. They became fast friends, and remained in touch after Adama reenlisted with the service. Two years later, Tigh found himself reinstated into the Colonial Fleet at the rank of captain, thanks to his old friend, and now major, Adama.<ref name="adama">''Ibid''. "Adama reenlisted with the service and Tigh spent two years drinking before Adama pulled strings to get him back into service. Tigh was straightening his life out when he met his wife Ellen, whom he courted and married within two months, about 7 years before the [[Miniseries]]. Unfortunately, Ellen did not take well to military life and her repeated infidelities drove Tigh back into the bottle. The two separated shortly before the Cylon attack.</ref>

Following the Cylon attack, Tigh recovered some of his old verve and attempted to give up alcohol. However, this, combined with the initial stress of flight from the Cylons caused him to over-compensate as a martinet, frequently driving the personnel overly-hard, and berating where encouragement would prove the better option ([[33]]). He excused this by using the truism that the XO is supposed to be the "hard face" of command.
[[image:33-Tigh_Adama.jpg|thumb|right|"If the crew doesn't hate the XO, then he's not doing his job."]]
With his drinking problem relatively under control, Tigh settled back into his role as the ''Galactica's'' Executive Officer and proved himself both honest and level-headed - if still hard on himself and others - in a number of circumstances, and he provided the kind of support [[William Adama|Adama]] needed.

During Cylon attacks, Tigh has proved himself to be an excellent battle manager and tactician. His quick actions sometimes saved the ship and [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] from damage or destruction ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]], [[Scattered]], [[Valley of Darkness]]).

Tigh is uneasy around President [[Laura Roslin]] ([[Water]]), and resents what he sees as her interfering with Adama's command ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]) - something born out of his deep respect for Adama which even the most heated of disagreements between them ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]) cannot disrupt.

Tigh personally dislikes [[Kara Thrace]], one of ''Galactica's'' pilots and, while grudgingly conceding she is a fine pilot, does not understand what Adama sees in her ([[Miniseries]]). Tigh sees Thrace as an egotistical, insubordinate youngster. While they have tried to bury the hatchet between them ([[Miniseries]], [[Water]]), there is potentially too much water under the bridge now for them to get completely past their differences.

Outside of Adama, Tigh has few others he regards as confidants aboard ship; and since the initial Cylon attack, he has withdrawn from interacting with the crew during off-duty hours, making him perhaps more isolated than even Adama - who is at least held in awe and respect by the crew.

=== Wife's Return ===
[[image:Tigh_Me_Up_Tigh_Me_Down-Saul_Ellen.jpg|thumb|left|'''Tigh''' and his newly returned wife, [[Ellen Tigh|Ellen]], making a toast: "To starting over" ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]).]]
Some three weeks after the Cylon attack on the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]], Tigh is stunned to discover his wife, [[Ellen Tigh|Ellen]], has not been killed as he had thought, but was rescued from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], and carried aboard the ''[[Rising Star (RDM)|Rising Star]]'' as an unconscious "Jane Doe".

Despite the emotional implications from the destruction of the Colonies and life aboard the ship, Tigh is reluctantly thrust further into politics as his wife plays her schemes. Much to his disdain, his wife attempts to procure photo opportunities with the likes of [[Tom Zarek]] -- a person Tigh views with the utmost contempt ([[Colonial Day]]). Additionally, Ellen seems to re-establish Tigh's alcoholism with gratuitous drinking.

Despite this, Adama sends Tigh with a squadron of [[Colonial Marine Corps|marines]] to arrest [[Laura Roslin]] after Adama discovers that she convinced [[Kara Thrace]] to [[FTL|Jump]] back to [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] to retrieve a historical artifact called the [[Arrow of Apollo]] from the Delphi Museum. This action deprives the Fleet of a crucial military asset -- a captured [[Cylon Raider (RDM)|Cylon Raider]], intended to have been used to plant a nuclear warhead aboard a basestar in orbit around the planet believed to be [[Kobol (RDM)|Kobol]] -- and convinces Adama that Roslin is abusing her authority.

Onboard ''[[Colonial One]]'', Tigh's men and Roslin's [[Presidential Security Service|personal security agents]] are at a standoff when [[Lee Adama]] aims a weapon at Tigh's head and attempts to thwart the arrest. Attempting to defuse the situation, Roslin agrees to be arrested and Lee Adama is arrested on charges of treason ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]).

=== Tigh in Command ===
[[Image:Scattered-Tigh.jpg|thumb|right|Tigh realizing he's in a bit over his head ([[Scattered]]).]]
Tigh is present in [[CIC]] during the attempted assassination of Adama by [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]]. As guards restrain Valerii, Tigh attempts to stop the bleeding from the torso gunshot wounds Adama sustained in the attempt ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). Needing reliable officers, Tigh grants Lee Adama a parole from his arrest. After his daily duties as [[CAG]] are done, Lee promises to return to the brig when off-shift.

With Adama incapacitated and with Roslin dethroned, Tigh tries to maintain order. However, his irrational and gruff command style displeases many crew members. Morale and ship efficiency began to suffer. Ellen Tigh becomes a private adviser to her husband, frequently questioning his power to command while also suggesting ways of usurping more power and quashing his opponents. Ellen Tigh's advice only exacerbates an already-deteriorating situation.

Tigh's interrogation of suspected Cylon collaborators or infiltrators is brutal. After beating, then nearly shooting the ''Galactica'' copy of Valerii, other issues in the Fleet divert him from further interrogation. He orders a special cage made for her for later interrogation. Tigh also savagely interrogates Valerii's former lover, Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] as a possible [[Humanoid Cylon]] himself. Tigh would have left him with Valerii in the newly built Cylon cage if [[Gaius Baltar]] did not intervene to prove medically that Tyrol is not a Cylon himself.

With Roslin in prison, uprisings begin as civilian ships refuse to supply ''Galactica'' until Roslin is released. Worse, the [[Quorum of Twelve]] demand to see Roslin. Knowing of Roslin's hallucinations in the brig, he intentionally invites the Quorum to see Roslin in her poor state in hopes of disillusioning the Quorum. However, Roslin recovers sufficiently from her [[Chamalla]] withdrawal after getting a supply smuggled to her by Corporal [[Venner]], her guard. Tigh, a secular man, believes that the accounts within the [[Sacred Scrolls]] weren't to be believed, and teases Roslin in front of the Quorum on her visions. Roslin not only is able to speak to the Quorum, but decisively reinforces her decisions as well as her role in the search for the location of Earth as told in the Pythian prophesies. This act greatly impresses the dominantly religious-minded Quorum, and infuriates Tigh; fearing a larger civilian government uprising led by the Quorum. Tigh institutes [[Wikipedia:martial law|martial law]] throughout the Fleet in an attempt to maintain order in a rapidly chaotic shuffle of power between the civilian and military governments ([[Fragged]]).

The supply situation leads Tigh to a poor decision of using Viper pilots to command marines in forcibly retrieving supplies. On [[Gideon|one ship]], a riot leads to four deaths and many injuries due to the pilot's inexperience in managing such a situation. Unlike Adama (who likely would have taken direct responsibility for the "Gideon Massacre"), Tigh places blame solely on the pilot, absolving himself from the incident.

=== Fleet Factioning and Adama's Return ===

The shootings, Tigh's decision for martial law, and his unwillingness to discuss anything with anyone except Ellen Tigh (and the unconscious Adama) becomes the dividing point of those wanting to press on to finding Earth, and those wanting to settle on Kobol ([[Season 2 (2005-06)|Season 2]]). Tigh's drinking spirals further out of control, leading to more erratic behavior and causing great concern regarding his ability to effectively command, particularly among the [[CIC]] staff. The situation comes to a head when Roslin, tacitly aided by other officers and crew on ''Galactica'', escapes the brig in an attempt to hide amongst the many ships in the Fleet with the aid of [[Tom Zarek]]. Tigh chases down the escaping Raptor using the [[CAP]], having the Viper fire across the bow of the fleeing Raptor to persuade it to return. The Raptor brazenly continues onward, leading to a crucial decision for the Colonel. Tigh allows the Raptor to escape rather than shooting it down, which would have killed Adama's son and the President and could have destabilized the fleet.
[[image:Flight_of_the_Phoenix-Tigh_Adama.jpg|thumb|left|Tigh and Adama share a knowing smirk at the commissioning of the [[Blackbird]], ''Laura'' ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).]]

Fortunately for the fleet and Colonel Tigh, Commander Adama regains consciousness shortly after the escape and asks what had happened during his absence. Tigh confesses that he has "frakked things up good," but Adama reassures his friend, saying, "I never had much use for people that second-guessed my decisions, especially if they've never held a command. They don't understand the pressure to make a call that affects the lives of thousands, and you have no one to turn to for backup."

Despite all the serious problems that Tigh created, Adama doesn't blame him, telling Tigh that whatever bad calls were made, they would pick up the pieces together ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]).

Both Adama (also a rather secular man) and Tigh are astounded at the number of ships that secede from the main fleet to join the [[Laura Roslin faction|faction]] that sought the [[Tomb of Athena]] with President Roslin ([[The Farm]]). Tigh backs up Adama while he maintains a similar official position on Roslin and the separated ships as Tigh has. However, after Adama realizes that survival of the entire Fleet would only come if everyone held together, Adama begins to prepare a journey to Kobol to retrieve the remainder of the Fleet and reach out to Roslin ([[Home, Part I]]). At first Tigh seems to believe that Adama is retrieving the faction by more military means, and scoffs at Roslin's religious views on the quest until he realizes that Adama is beginning to follow Roslin's information, taking her reports and visions seriously. Tigh is left in command while Adama successfully reunites the Fleet and reconciles with Roslin ([[Home, Part II]]).

=== Fallout from the [[Gideon]] Incident ===
After [[William Adama|Adama's]] return to command and Roslin to the presidency, for a moment the ''Gideon'' incident is almost forgotten. Before she is invited to ''Galactica'', reporter [[D'anna Biers]] prepares a story about the incident, which could destroy the public's view towards Tigh, and eventually ''Galactica''. However she drops the subject in favor of a ''Galactica'' documentary.

Lt. [[Joe Palladino|Joe "Hammerhead" Palladino]], the pilot in charge of the boarding operation to ''Gideon'', blames Tigh for the discredit to his reputation. He begins to terrorize Tigh and his wife, but Tigh later manages to subdue Palladino ([[Final Cut]]).

=== ''Pegasus'' Discovered ===

Things once again turn on their head when ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' has a chance encounter with the battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', a modern type of battlestar and the flagship of Admiral [[Helena Cain]]. Cain, being the superior officer, assumes complete command of the Fleet. The naturally suspicious Tigh is wary about this mixed blessing, but takes it in stride like everything else up until now. When he begins to regularly speak with ''Pegasus''’s own XO [[Jack Fisk]], his suspicions slowly prove to be well founded.

Fisk's conscience-clearing sessions with Tigh reveal that Admiral Cain was responsible for a set of atrocities, the most damning being the pillaging and stranding of a small civilian fleet in open space. When Tigh relays this information to Commander Adama, Adama reminisces about their own questionable activities, particularly their actions regarding the ''[[Olympic Carrier]]''. However, Adama keeps Tigh's warnings in mind and they help him in his decision to stand up to Cain later on ("[[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]" through "[[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]").

=== The Election and New Caprica ===
When the Presidential election arrives, Col. Tigh is charged with overseeing the vote tallies on ''Galactica''. When it appears that [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] would win the vote, [[Tory Foster]], President Roslin's aide, approaches Col. Tigh and Petty Officer [[Dualla]] to conspire to steal the election for Roslin, foreseeing certain disaster in a Baltar presidency. Tigh, never a fan of Baltar's to begin with, assists in the deception in order to keep Baltar out of office. The plot is overturned when Lt. [[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]] later notices the Colonel's suspicious and stand-offish behavior regarding the ballot boxes. Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] lets Tigh and Dualla off the hook and the official vote tallies are "revised" without the public learning of the Roslin campaign's attempt to steal the election.

One year later, after the fleet settles on [[New Caprica]] on the orders of President Baltar, most of the military staff have all but retired from active service. Col. Tigh is one of the few officers still serving aboard ''Galactica'', but the day eventually comes when Admiral Adama discharges his friend and XO from his duties to let him return to civilian life with his wife. On the surface of New Caprica, the couple run into [[Kara Thrace]] at [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] and [[Cally]]'s union rally. The former colonel and captain share an unusually warm embrace, having put their differences behind them at some point in the preceding year, or Thrace being happy to see a familiar face of the ''Galactica'' family. Unfortunately, their reunion does not last as a large Cylon fleet appears in orbit over the planet and the Cylons occupy New Caprica without firing a shot. Tigh and his wife are last seen watching in utter shock as [[Cylon Centurion]]s march through the streets of New Caprica City ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

=== Occupation and Resistance ===
Two months into the occupation of New Caprica by the Cylons, Tigh is organizing and recruiting for [[New Caprica Resistance|the resistance on New Caprica]] along with [[Galen Tyrol]] and [[Jammer]]. When the Cylons begin to find the weapons hidden by the Resistance, Tigh orders them to be stored in the Temple, believing it to be the safest place as the Cylon respect the sanctity of the Temple and will not search it. When the Cylons discover the weapons, [[Nora]] is shot and [[Cally Tyrol]] and her baby barely escape. This leads several members of the [[New Caprica Resistance]] to question whether Tigh is going too far. After Tigh plans an attack that could endanger patients at a hospital, Jammer reports him to the Cylon authorities ([[Battlestar Galactica: The Resistance]]). The Cylons imprison Tigh and physically tear his right eye out. He is badly beaten and put into a small holding cell. Ellen's sexual efforts with [[Cavil]] lead to Tigh's eventual release ([[Occupation]]) though this is later revealed to be a Cylon ruse to blackmail Ellen into collaboration with the Cylons as well as find the location of a high level meeting of the Insurgency.

===Escape from New Caprica and beyond===
[[Image:Saulellen.jpg|Tigh handing Ellen her poisoned drink.|thumb]]Tigh actively participates in the exodus from New Caprica, leading an attack on the shipyard with Galen Tyrol, during which they are aided by Vipers of ''Galactica's'' [[Blue Squadron]].
[[Image:TighAdamaReunion.jpg|thumb|left|Adama welcomes Tigh back on ''Galactica'' ([[Exodus, Part II]]).]]
Following the exodus, he initially resumes his post as the Executive Officer of ''Galactica'', but is unable to conceal his contempt for those who colluded with the Cylons, such as [[Felix Gaeta]]. In a face-off with Admiral Adama, in which the senior officer orders Tigh to "sleep it off", it is clear that the events on New Caprica - most notably, his wife's death - are still adversely affecting Tigh. Following that he spends a lot of time in his quarters trying to cope with what happened to him on New Caprica and is temporarily replaced by [[Karl Agathon]].

He is also the apparent ringleader of the [[The Circle|Circle]], a group of six people authorised by then-President [[Tom Zarek]], charged with bringing collaborators to justice. Thirteen people fall victim to the Circle's mandate, including [[Jammer]] ([[Collaborators]]).

Tigh is reunited with an old comrade, [[Daniel Novacek|Daniel "Bulldog" Novacek]] and tells him the truth of his last mission. Tigh later stops him when Novacek tries to kill Adama in revenge for being the cause of him spending years as a Cylon captive ([[Hero]]).

Tigh also referees the boxing fights organized to boost morale ([[Unfinished Business]]).

He returns to duty during operations to resupply the Fleet's food stores ([[The Passage]]).

When [[Kara Thrace]] dies he is visibly heartbroken ([[Maelstrom]]), showing that he did truly care about her despite their differences, which he had begun to show in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".

As the Fleet nears the [[Ionian nebula]] and Gaius Baltar's trial begins, Tigh is one of a few people who hear mysterious music on several occasions. When called to testify in court, he shows up drunk. [[Romo Lampkin|Baltar's lawyer]] exploits this vulnerability and forces Tigh to publicly admit that he killed his wife on New Caprica ([[Crossroads, Part I]]).

Saul Tigh, [[Galen Tyrol]], [[Samuel Anders]] and [[Tory Foster]] begin to hear a [[The Music|song]] only they can hear over and over again, driving them to distraction. They eventually come to the realization that they are four of the [[Final Five]] Cylons. For the moment they decide to remain loyal to the Colonials ([[Crossroads, Part II]]).

==Notes==
* Tigh's first name has been given as "Paul" on a number of websites. This is based on an early [http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/battlestar/season1/galactica-ms1.pdf version of the script] '''(PDF file)''', which has Adama speaking to "Paul" in their discussion of his fight with Kara Thrace. Since this version of the script has significant differences to the final script, its canonical value is low.
* [[Ronald D. Moore]] has indicated via the [[podcast]] commentary on the episode "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]" that the character's name initially was Paul Tigh. The name, however, had to be changed due to legal issues that Moore was unable to recall in that podcast.
* Tigh is based off the character of Paul Eddington in the movie "[[Wikipedia:In Harm's Way|In Harm's Way]]" portrayed by Kirk Douglas (with John Wayne).
* Tigh's age is one of the only ones which can be accurately deduced. In a [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/202/deleted1.html deleted scene] from [[Valley of Darkness]], we learn that he was serving on the [[Brenik]] when it was boarded during the second year of the Cylon War. Tigh tells us that he was "just a kid. Virgin. Teenager." We know that [[Colonial Day (holiday)|Colonial Day]] is the anniversary of both the unification of the Colonies, and (roughly) the outbreak of the Cylon War (Source: [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/04/index.html#a000025 RDM, April 11, 2005]), and was 52 years ago ([[Colonial Day]]). Thus, Tigh is between 63 and 69 years old at the beginning of season 2. Season Three begins about two years after this conversation.
* In the DVD commentary of "[[Act of Contrition]]", Ron Moore notes that actor [[Michael Hogan]] won the role of Tigh over [[Donnelly Rhodes]], who was one of two other actors vying for the part. Rhodes however went on to play the role of [[Cottle|Dr. Cottle]], ''Galactica'''s CMO.

{{start box}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown)''|title=Executive Officer of the [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''|after=[[Karl Agathon]]}}
{{succession box|before=[[Karl Agathon]]|title=Executive Officer of the [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica (RDM)| Galactica]]'' |after=[[Karl Agathon]]}}
{{end box}}

==References==
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{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:Characters|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:Characters (RDM)|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:Main Characters (RDM)|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:Cylons|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:RDM|Tigh, Saul]]

[[de:Saul Tigh]]
[[fr:Saul Tigh]]

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Talk:Saul Tigh/Archive 1

2007-06-18T21:06:46Z

Sauron18: /* New image */

==Age?==

The profile states that he is in his "50s" and the article says that he is

:"A veteran in his mid-40s to early 50s"

In the commentary for ''[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]'', [[Ronald D. Moore|Ron Moore]] states that [[William Adama|Adama]] is younger than Tigh, and in addition to this, the fact that the [[Cylon War]] took place 40 years ago would obviously mean that he's probably not in his 50s, and definitely not in his mid-40s. Unless someone can argue against it, I'm changing these portions of the article. --[[User:Palpatine|Palpatine]] 22:26, 26 October 2005 (EDT)

:We're probalby going to get around to removing age information from most of the character articles soon. See [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:31, 27 October 2005 (EDT)

::Even after completely discounting Adama's supposed age of 61 as a reference point, it's still reasonable to assume that both of them are in their 60s, due to reasons I already went into. --[[User:Palpatine|Palpatine]] 23:49, 27 October 2005 (EDT)

:::Well. Remember that the war lasted for about 12 years (the Articles of Colonization were signed 52 years ago, which Moore [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/04/index.html#a000025 says] is coincident with the outbreak of hostilities, the war explicitly ended 40 years ago). If we guess that the age to enlist in the colonial military is 18, and Adama enlisted at the start, that would make him at most 70. If Tigh enlisted in the war's last year, that would make him at least 58.

:::Beyond that, I'm not sure what we can say with much certainty. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:26, 28 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: It might be asserted that joinin' age is lower in the Colonies. Is it not 16 in some European nations? I could be wrong. Of course, heck, the lifespans of Colonials could be vastly different from ours. They drive space ships routinely. They have FLT drives. Surely they have some medical technologies that we don't. Maybe they just live longer. This has no basis whatsoever on anything seen on screen, but it's possible, which means that any guesses we make of age based on the actors' appearences is fairly irrelevant. Of course... 70 would be about right for retiring, wouldn't it? But if Tigh is older, why hadn't he retired already? Or was Adama getting an early retirement? In which case, is 70 an ''early'' retirement? That might speak to Colonial life expectancy. Anyway... most of that is just rambling. --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:23, 28 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::Colonial military age is up to debate as Day stated, but we don't have to guess about when Adama joined the military. Moore also said in the same commentary I already referenced that he joined as a pilot in the last days of the war, which we can say with certainty was approximately 40 years ago. Tigh was also specifically said to have been slightly older than, and had seen more combat than Adama. Adding all of this together, we still come to the conclusion that both of them are most likely in their 60s. 10 years is a pretty safe margin of error. --[[User:Palpatine|Palpatine]] 02:09, 29 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::I'll have to double check that. It seems odd for Saul to refer to Bill as "the old man" if he's not at least a few years younger. Another interesting question - in our military, there's usually a provision for forced retirement if you get passed over for promotion for enough years. Does anyone know more about that? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:41, 29 October 2005 (EDT)

My main problem with age (per recent edits) is the lack of consistency between bios. We may be able to get Tigh's down to within a few years, but it's still awfully sloppy, and other pages aren't much better. My edits were based on this thread (now that Peter located it for me). But let consensus rule...calculating ages aren't my specialty. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:27, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:How long is a colonial year anyway? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:23, 20 December 2006 (CST)

:: Same as an Earth year. See [[Timeline (RDM)#Notes]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:31, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Rating==
According to a deleted scene on the season 2 dvds, Tigh was a petty officer, an assistant gunner's mate, and still a teenager when his ship got boarded. This took place very early in the war and Tigh was still a teenager (more like Cally in age than Tyrol). Also, in the last week of the war, Adama was serving on the Galactica when it was boarded and the Cylons used the same tactics as in Valley of Darkness. Adama told Tigh what happened over a drink and this is how Tigh knew what was happening. In the boarding he was in, he was assigned to guard the ship's magazines. I'll add stuff to the main page later, just wanted to get y'alls opinion on this. It's late.--[[User:Talos|Talos]] 00:53, 27 December 2005 (EST)

:Ricimer and I had an extended conversation about this on [[Talk:Cylon War]] which you may wish to refer to. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:22, 27 December 2005 (EST)
::Thanks, I had missed that. It was just something I noticed while watching my new dvds yesterday. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 11:38, 27 December 2005 (EST)

== Picture? ==

I'm all for changing the pictures in the template to the promotional thing if the one we had was only so-so, but I really liked Tigh's picture, so... Why go and change them systematically? Anyone else find this somewhat rash? --[[User:Day|Day]] 22:27, 28 December 2005 (EST)

:I changed the character bio photo for consistency with many of the character bios elsewhere that started to use their promo pics. This was completely arbitrary, so if the collective says to use another picture, please do so. I think I was also trying to save it from the Island of Misfit Images, I think. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:01, 23 January 2006 (EST)

::One of them will be a misfit either way (unless we find a place for the other). But I appreciate people looking at and adopting images though... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:19, 23 January 2006 (EST)

::: I think consistancy is well and good, but I think consistantly cool photos are better than consistantly "promo" photos. And if we decided to use promo stuff, we'd have to be inconsistant for the more minor characters. --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:17, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::I concur. Consistantly cool is better than consistantly "promo". Although, in the name of consistancy I wonder if it might be a good idea to establish guidelines on the type of shots we're looking for (on the character project maybe?). Personally, I look for a good 8x10 head and shoulders shot that's at least two hundred pixels wide, that doesn't have any other characters significantly in the shot (to avoid confusion). While a promo standard could be established ("use the promo shot if you've got it"), I think the show is capable of producing shots that are more representative of "the character", and cooler. Also, a character shot that illustrates/represents something in the bio or description might have more value than "actor posing for a promo shot". The promo shots can look a look a lot more polished sometimes, but with the advent of the DVD release and some of the high-resolution captures that are taken today, I think they may be obsolete. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:53, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== Images ==

I feel like we may be going a bit over-board on the number of pics on this page. I've a high-speed connection, but I don't want to alienate dial-up users and I don't want to angery any lawyers by skirting too close to "fair use". If I had to get rid of one, I'd say delete the (very dark) pic near the top with the "If the crew doesn't hate the XO..." quote. It's not a very quality shot.

Secondarily, I feel like the shot of Boomer and Tigh under "Tigh in Command" is huge. It also appears on the [[Scattered]] page, I think it should be replaced with the much-less-tall [[:image:Scattered-Tigh.jpg]]. Now, I may be a bit biased towards that one because I uploaded it, but I also think it displays wonderfully Tigh's overwhelmed feeling upon taking command. What do others think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:02, 20 January 2006 (EST)

*I think someone needs to get a screencap in [[Scar]] when Tigh has a really stupid grin on his face while Lt. Thrace walks up to Kat near the end. I might do it when I have a chance, but I don't feel like it right now.--[[User:Deadlygopher|Deadlygopher]] 02:25, 4 February 2006 (EST)

== Occupation and Resistance ==

Since we will probably be adding this section to a lot of characters, is "Occupation and Resistance" OK? --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:13, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
: I find this acceptable. What does everyone else have to say? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:21, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
::Sounds good to me. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:31, 6 September 2006 (CDT)

== Call Sign ==

I don't know if it is just being skipped over or because it has never been mentioned, but since he did have a run as a Viper Pilot there seems to be no call sign for it. Does anyone know if there is information available as to his call sign? I question this because he is the only person known as a viper pilot who does not have their call sign name. I would recommend that it be added in the sub-profile "Call Sign: Unknown." Even Admiral Adama has his displayed. Thoughts? --[[User:AJFederation|AJFederation]] 15:55, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
: AJ, in response to your question, Tigh's call sign has never been mentioned. So we haven't added it. As for saying "Call Sign:Unknown" in the data box, we don't fill out forms in the databox with things such as unknown. If it is unknown, then the field is left blank and therefore undefined, so as to not clutter the infobox with "unknown"s for things we don't know about. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:08, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
::Perhpas we should add this to the [[BW:OC]] page? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 05:08, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

== Rank ==

Clearly he is a Colonel while serving aboard the Galactica. I wonder, however, if he should not have been promoted to General at the after the murder of Fisk (Pegasus Commander who took over after Adm Cain). I am a little fuzzy as to the exact ranking structure for the marines. However, if Tigh is Colonel over the marines on the Galactica and there is no Colonel on the Pegasus does it not make the most sense that he would be promoted to General in the same way that Adama was promoted to Admiral? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 00:09, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:The rank structure in Galactica is not the same as modern day militaries. "Colonel" is a rank in the fleet, roughly analogous to Captain in the US Navy. The rank structure in BSG has naval and army/airforce ranks mixed in. See [[Military Ranks (RDM)]] for further info. So, in short, no- Tigh should not have been promoted to "General", since that's not a rank in the BSG universe. "Colonel" is the rank generally held by a ship's Executive Officer. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 05:06, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:: This makes much more sense. My only remaining questions is why was Lee Adama only a major when Adm Adama placed him on the Pegasus? Should not his position be Col for the role he was playing? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 12:44, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:::Lee he wasn't XO in "The Captain's Hand". He was only sent there to look after Garner and the rest of the crew, but he was never referred to as XO. Garner even told him that he isn't really part of the crew, and there is a deleted scene where Tigh asks Adama if he is still thinking about making Lee XO. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:01, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:::Not necessarily. Even today, a vessel's master does not need to hold the rank of "Captain" (though he or she will still be called that). By the same token, an Executive Officer does not ''need'' to be a Colonel. Think of it this way- most XO's in today's navies hold the rank of Commander or equivalent, while the CO is a Captain. However, this is not set in stone. A CO may be a Lieutenant Commander, and their XO a Lieutenant. The reason I said that the XO was generally a Colonel is because we've seen two XO's on screen who both held the rank- that doesn't mean that every XO in the Fleet is a Colonel. Does that make sense? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 12:54, 27 September 2006 (CDT)
:::The XO and Commander could even be the same rank, position keeping the chain of command intact. I've seen aircraft carriers where both the Captain and XO are O-6 Captains. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 15:34, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:As above. Tigh isn't a Marine just because he has a modern Army/Marine rank. He's in Colonial Fleet like Adama, wears a CF uniform and the next rank for him would be Commander. For NCOs and enlisted the Marines use the same ranks as today. The excact structure of their officer ranks is unknown.--[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:25, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

== Ol' One-Eye ==

I'm wondering if we should make mention of the fact that Tigh's been maimed by the Cylons during his time in captivity so that he only has one eye now. This is, of course, assuming that it's true and that it's not "just something" he told Tyrol and Anders to get them going.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 02:00, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

:Speaking of Tigh's eye, should there be a reference to the Germanic/Norse god Wotan/Woden? I really know very little about mythology, but I read that this god sacrificed his eye so that he could gain wisdom. Fitting? Ironic? Irrelevant? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:14, 2 December 2006 (CST)

== New image ==

Should [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000kp3hg/g248 this] be made the new image, now that Tigh is ol' one-eye? --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 17:07, 30 October 2006 (CST)
:I think, given how we can find HD caps for most of the season now, that we should perhaps try and find an image of Tigh in which he looks a bit more composed and with his formal eye-patch and all. If at least so that he looks more respectable and a little less like a one-eyed drunk. Promos for next season will probably have him updated with all the new features he got this last season, but until then I would propose we search for a good and composed Eye-Patched Tigh. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:06, 18 June 2007 (CDT)

== Position ==

I think someone is jumping the gun a little here. Helo is still the First officer of Galactica, as far as I know, yet the table claims Tigh is the current first officer. Is he and if so when was he reinstated--[[User:Ireboi|Ireboi]] 07:35, 5 December 2006 (CST)

== Outdated ==

This article is severely outdated; it seems it hasn't been updated since "[[The Passage]]", save for one small addition today from "[[Maelstrom]]". Someone should add stuff from "[[The Eye of Jupiter]]" through "[[Crossroads, Part I]]". (Before you start asking why I'm not volunteering, it's 22:30 over here and I noticed the incompleteness of this article on my evening pass.) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 16:27, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
: I imagine that the article would be updated after the end of the season, after which we'll have to go through and concise all the major character articles anyway. (see [[BW:TANK|The think tank for more.]]) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:05, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
::True. My point was more that this article has more backlog than most of the bios, which are updated after every episode. Of course this is a season break job, but I wanted to point out that this article has serious backlog, more so than most of the other articles. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 10:24, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Saul Tigh

2007-06-16T05:25:53Z

Sauron18: /* Background */ Added Adama-Tigh Meeting date.

{{Character Data
|photo= Season 3 - Promo - Epi 5 - Saul Tigh.jpg
|age= Alledgedly 65-71
|colony= Aerelon
|birthname=
|callsign=
|seen= Miniseries
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|children= None
|marital status=Widower, formerly married to [[Ellen Tigh]]†
|role= Executive Officer, [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]''
|rank= Colonel
|actor= [[Michael Hogan]]
|cylon= y
|name= Saul Tigh
}}

'''Saul Tigh''' is the [[Executive Officer]] (XO) of ''[[Galactica]]'', as well as frequently serving as acting Commander in the place of [[William Adama]]. Before that, he served as Adama's XO on the battlestar ''[[Valkyrie]]''. A tough but troubled man with a long history of alcoholism, Tigh has served in the [[Colonial Fleet]] since his teenage years, seeing action in both [[Cylon War]]s. He is a widower of the deceased [[Ellen Tigh]].

== Biography ==

=== Background ===
Tigh was supposedly born on the colony of [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]].<ref name="aerelon">"Cylon Intelligence Report: Personnel File: Saul Tigh." Battlestar Galactica: The Official Magazine. Feb./Mar. 2006: 62.</ref> (He has recently been revealed as a Cylon presumably making this point moot). A veteran of the Cylon War, Tigh is sometimes estranged from his wife Ellen and has been somewhat disillusioned with his career, seeking refuge in alcoholism - a move which has led many in the crew to view him with contempt ([[Miniseries]], "[[33]]").

He is supposedly a third-generation Colonial soldier. [[Saul Tigh (father of)|His alledged father]] was a decorated fighter pilot killed in combat and [[Saul Tigh (grandfather of)|his grandfather]] served under President [[Mueller (president)|Mueller]]. According to [[Billy Keikeya]], Tigh was a published military historian until personal problems became apparent ([[Miniseries]], [[List of Deleted Scenes (RDM)|deleted scene]]).

Tigh began his career as a deckhand<ref name="deckhand">''Ibid''. "Saul Tigh entered the fleet as a deckhand but rose through the ranks and was a CPO (Chief Petty Officer) by the time the First Cylon War broke out."</ref>. By the second year of the first [[Cylon War]], he was serving as a gunner's mate onboard the ''[[Brenik]]''. His ship was boarded by the Cylons where he and others fought in hand to hand combat, during the bloodiest time of that war. It was during this battle that he saw his first dead man, [[Duncan Rafferty]], who was violently vivisected by Centurions ([http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/202/deleted1.html deleted scene], [[Valley of Darkness]]). His ship was subsequently destroyed and he survived. He was transferred to another unnamed ship, which succumbed to a similar fate as his original ship. Having borne witness to many a bloody combat, he became emotionally scarred, which had, among other impetuses, led him to alcoholism.
[[Image:Tighadama.jpg|Tigh and Adama's first meeting.|left|thumb]]

Tigh eventually achieved the rank of Chief Petty Officer ([[Galen Tyrol]]'s position on ''Galactica''). When Viper pilot numbers began running low in the war, Tigh was drafted into Colonial Officer Candidate School and was reassigned as a Viper pilot.<ref>{{cite rdm podcast|episode=Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down}}</ref> As a pilot, he demonstrated considerable skill, earning several medals while posted aboard the battlestar ''[[Athena (Battlestar)|Athena]]''.<ref name="athena">''Ibid''. "Tigh joined the Colonial Officer Candidate School and was reassigned as a Viper pilot, something he excelled in, earning a string of medals in his post aboard the battlestar Athena."</ref>

After the cessation of hostilities, he was dismissed from service and eked out an existence as a deckhand aboard a commercial freighter. Tigh clearly experienced signs of post-traumatic stress disorder; he commented that every time he smelled grease or machine oil he would nearly vomit, as this smell reminded him of the "stink" of Centurions ([[Valley of Darkness]], [[List of Deleted Scenes|deleted scene]]). While on board, he drowned himself in alcohol and, after a time, about 20 years after the War, encountered [[William Adama]], who had not seen as much combat experience as Tigh himself. They became fast friends, and remained in touch after Adama reenlisted with the service. Two years later, Tigh found himself reinstated into the Colonial Fleet at the rank of captain, thanks to his old friend, and now major, Adama.<ref name="adama">''Ibid''. "Adama reenlisted with the service and Tigh spent two years drinking before Adama pulled strings to get him back into service. Tigh was straightening his life out when he met his wife Ellen, whom he courted and married within two months, about 7 years before the [[Miniseries]]. Unfortunately, Ellen did not take well to military life and her repeated infidelities drove Tigh back into the bottle. The two separated shortly before the Cylon attack.</ref>

Following the Cylon attack, Tigh recovered some of his old verve and attempted to give up alcohol. However, this, combined with the initial stress of flight from the Cylons caused him to over-compensate as a martinet, frequently driving the personnel overly-hard, and berating where encouragement would prove the better option ([[33]]). He excused this by using the truism that the XO is supposed to be the "hard face" of command.
[[image:33-Tigh_Adama.jpg|thumb|right|"If the crew doesn't hate the XO, then he's not doing his job."]]
With his drinking problem relatively under control, Tigh settled back into his role as the ''Galactica's'' Executive Officer and proved himself both honest and level-headed - if still hard on himself and others - in a number of circumstances, and he provided the kind of support [[William Adama|Adama]] needed.

During Cylon attacks, Tigh has proved himself to be an excellent battle manager and tactician. His quick actions sometimes saved the ship and [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] from damage or destruction ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]], [[Scattered]], [[Valley of Darkness]]).

Tigh is uneasy around President [[Laura Roslin]] ([[Water]]), and resents what he sees as her interfering with Adama's command ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]) - something born out of his deep respect for Adama which even the most heated of disagreements between them ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]) cannot disrupt.

Tigh personally dislikes [[Kara Thrace]], one of ''Galactica's'' pilots and, while grudgingly conceding she is a fine pilot, does not understand what Adama sees in her ([[Miniseries]]). Tigh sees Thrace as an egotistical, insubordinate youngster. While they have tried to bury the hatchet between them ([[Miniseries]], [[Water]]), there is potentially too much water under the bridge now for them to get completely past their differences.

Outside of Adama, Tigh has few others he regards as confidants aboard ship; and since the initial Cylon attack, he has withdrawn from interacting with the crew during off-duty hours, making him perhaps more isolated than even Adama - who is at least held in awe and respect by the crew.

=== Wife's Return ===
[[image:Tigh_Me_Up_Tigh_Me_Down-Saul_Ellen.jpg|thumb|left|'''Tigh''' and his newly returned wife, [[Ellen Tigh|Ellen]], making a toast: "To starting over" ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]).]]
Some three weeks after the Cylon attack on the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]], Tigh is stunned to discover his wife, [[Ellen Tigh|Ellen]], has not been killed as he had thought, but was rescued from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], and carried aboard the ''[[Rising Star (RDM)|Rising Star]]'' as an unconscious "Jane Doe".

Despite the emotional implications from the destruction of the Colonies and life aboard the ship, Tigh is reluctantly thrust further into politics as his wife plays her schemes. Much to his disdain, his wife attempts to procure photo opportunities with the likes of [[Tom Zarek]] -- a person Tigh views with the utmost contempt ([[Colonial Day]]). Additionally, Ellen seems to re-establish Tigh's alcoholism with gratuitous drinking.

Despite this, Adama sends Tigh with a squadron of [[Colonial Marine Corps|marines]] to arrest [[Laura Roslin]] after Adama discovers that she convinced [[Kara Thrace]] to [[FTL|Jump]] back to [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] to retrieve a historical artifact called the [[Arrow of Apollo]] from the Delphi Museum. This action deprives the Fleet of a crucial military asset -- a captured [[Cylon Raider (RDM)|Cylon Raider]], intended to have been used to plant a nuclear warhead aboard a basestar in orbit around the planet believed to be [[Kobol (RDM)|Kobol]] -- and convinces Adama that Roslin is abusing her authority.

Onboard ''[[Colonial One]]'', Tigh's men and Roslin's [[Presidential Security Service|personal security agents]] are at a standoff when [[Lee Adama]] aims a weapon at Tigh's head and attempts to thwart the arrest. Attempting to defuse the situation, Roslin agrees to be arrested and Lee Adama is arrested on charges of treason ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]).

=== Tigh in Command ===
[[Image:Scattered-Tigh.jpg|thumb|right|Tigh realizing he's in a bit over his head ([[Scattered]]).]]
Tigh is present in [[CIC]] during the attempted assassination of Adama by [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]]. As guards restrain Valerii, Tigh attempts to stop the bleeding from the torso gunshot wounds Adama sustained in the attempt ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). Needing reliable officers, Tigh grants Lee Adama a parole from his arrest. After his daily duties as [[CAG]] are done, Lee promises to return to the brig when off-shift.

With Adama incapacitated and with Roslin dethroned, Tigh tries to maintain order. However, his irrational and gruff command style displeases many crew members. Morale and ship efficiency began to suffer. Ellen Tigh becomes a private adviser to her husband, frequently questioning his power to command while also suggesting ways of usurping more power and quashing his opponents. Ellen Tigh's advice only exacerbates an already-deteriorating situation.

Tigh's interrogation of suspected Cylon collaborators or infiltrators is brutal. After beating, then nearly shooting the ''Galactica'' copy of Valerii, other issues in the Fleet divert him from further interrogation. He orders a special cage made for her for later interrogation. Tigh also savagely interrogates Valerii's former lover, Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] as a possible [[Humanoid Cylon]] himself. Tigh would have left him with Valerii in the newly built Cylon cage if [[Gaius Baltar]] did not intervene to prove medically that Tyrol is not a Cylon himself.

With Roslin in prison, uprisings begin as civilian ships refuse to supply ''Galactica'' until Roslin is released. Worse, the [[Quorum of Twelve]] demand to see Roslin. Knowing of Roslin's hallucinations in the brig, he intentionally invites the Quorum to see Roslin in her poor state in hopes of disillusioning the Quorum. However, Roslin recovers sufficiently from her [[Chamalla]] withdrawal after getting a supply smuggled to her by Corporal [[Venner]], her guard. Tigh, a secular man, believes that the accounts within the [[Sacred Scrolls]] weren't to be believed, and teases Roslin in front of the Quorum on her visions. Roslin not only is able to speak to the Quorum, but decisively reinforces her decisions as well as her role in the search for the location of Earth as told in the Pythian prophesies. This act greatly impresses the dominantly religious-minded Quorum, and infuriates Tigh; fearing a larger civilian government uprising led by the Quorum. Tigh institutes [[Wikipedia:martial law|martial law]] throughout the Fleet in an attempt to maintain order in a rapidly chaotic shuffle of power between the civilian and military governments ([[Fragged]]).

The supply situation leads Tigh to a poor decision of using Viper pilots to command marines in forcibly retrieving supplies. On [[Gideon|one ship]], a riot leads to four deaths and many injuries due to the pilot's inexperience in managing such a situation. Unlike Adama (who likely would have taken direct responsibility for the "Gideon Massacre"), Tigh places blame solely on the pilot, absolving himself from the incident.

=== Fleet Factioning and Adama's Return ===

The shootings, Tigh's decision for martial law, and his unwillingness to discuss anything with anyone except Ellen Tigh (and the unconscious Adama) becomes the dividing point of those wanting to press on to finding Earth, and those wanting to settle on Kobol ([[Season 2 (2005-06)|Season 2]]). Tigh's drinking spirals further out of control, leading to more erratic behavior and causing great concern regarding his ability to effectively command, particularly among the [[CIC]] staff. The situation comes to a head when Roslin, tacitly aided by other officers and crew on ''Galactica'', escapes the brig in an attempt to hide amongst the many ships in the Fleet with the aid of [[Tom Zarek]]. Tigh chases down the escaping Raptor using the [[CAP]], having the Viper fire across the bow of the fleeing Raptor to persuade it to return. The Raptor brazenly continues onward, leading to a crucial decision for the Colonel. Tigh allows the Raptor to escape rather than shooting it down, which would have killed Adama's son and the President and could have destabilized the fleet.
[[image:Flight_of_the_Phoenix-Tigh_Adama.jpg|thumb|left|Tigh and Adama share a knowing smirk at the commissioning of the [[Blackbird]], ''Laura'' ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).]]

Fortunately for the fleet and Colonel Tigh, Commander Adama regains consciousness shortly after the escape and asks what had happened during his absence. Tigh confesses that he has "frakked things up good," but Adama reassures his friend, saying, "I never had much use for people that second-guessed my decisions, especially if they've never held a command. They don't understand the pressure to make a call that affects the lives of thousands, and you have no one to turn to for backup."

Despite all the serious problems that Tigh created, Adama doesn't blame him, telling Tigh that whatever bad calls were made, they would pick up the pieces together ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]).

Both Adama (also a rather secular man) and Tigh are astounded at the number of ships that secede from the main fleet to join the [[Laura Roslin faction|faction]] that sought the [[Tomb of Athena]] with President Roslin ([[The Farm]]). Tigh backs up Adama while he maintains a similar official position on Roslin and the separated ships as Tigh has. However, after Adama realizes that survival of the entire Fleet would only come if everyone held together, Adama begins to prepare a journey to Kobol to retrieve the remainder of the Fleet and reach out to Roslin ([[Home, Part I]]). At first Tigh seems to believe that Adama is retrieving the faction by more military means, and scoffs at Roslin's religious views on the quest until he realizes that Adama is beginning to follow Roslin's information, taking her reports and visions seriously. Tigh is left in command while Adama successfully reunites the Fleet and reconciles with Roslin ([[Home, Part II]]).

=== Fallout from the [[Gideon]] Incident ===
After [[William Adama|Adama's]] return to command and Roslin to the presidency, for a moment the ''Gideon'' incident is almost forgotten. Before she is invited to ''Galactica'', reporter [[D'anna Biers]] prepares a story about the incident, which could destroy the public's view towards Tigh, and eventually ''Galactica''. However she drops the subject in favor of a ''Galactica'' documentary.

Lt. [[Joe Palladino|Joe "Hammerhead" Palladino]], the pilot in charge of the boarding operation to ''Gideon'', blames Tigh for the discredit to his reputation. He begins to terrorize Tigh and his wife, but Tigh later manages to subdue Palladino ([[Final Cut]]).

=== ''Pegasus'' Discovered ===

Things once again turn on their head when ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' has a chance encounter with the battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', a modern type of battlestar and the flagship of Admiral [[Helena Cain]]. Cain, being the superior officer, assumes complete command of the Fleet. The naturally suspicious Tigh is wary about this mixed blessing, but takes it in stride like everything else up until now. When he begins to regularly speak with ''Pegasus''’s own XO [[Jack Fisk]], his suspicions slowly prove to be well founded.

Fisk's conscience-clearing sessions with Tigh reveal that Admiral Cain was responsible for a set of atrocities, the most damning being the pillaging and stranding of a small civilian fleet in open space. When Tigh relays this information to Commander Adama, Adama reminisces about their own questionable activities, particularly their actions regarding the ''[[Olympic Carrier]]''. However, Adama keeps Tigh's warnings in mind and they help him in his decision to stand up to Cain later on ("[[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]" through "[[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]").

=== The Election and New Caprica ===
When the Presidential election arrives, Col. Tigh is charged with overseeing the vote tallies on ''Galactica''. When it appears that [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] would win the vote, [[Tory Foster]], President Roslin's aide, approaches Col. Tigh and Petty Officer [[Dualla]] to conspire to steal the election for Roslin, foreseeing certain disaster in a Baltar presidency. Tigh, never a fan of Baltar's to begin with, assists in the deception in order to keep Baltar out of office. The plot is overturned when Lt. [[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]] later notices the Colonel's suspicious and stand-offish behavior regarding the ballot boxes. Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] lets Tigh and Dualla off the hook and the official vote tallies are "revised" without the public learning of the Roslin campaign's attempt to steal the election.

One year later, after the fleet settles on [[New Caprica]] on the orders of President Baltar, most of the military staff have all but retired from active service. Col. Tigh is one of the few officers still serving aboard ''Galactica'', but the day eventually comes when Admiral Adama discharges his friend and XO from his duties to let him return to civilian life with his wife. On the surface of New Caprica, the couple run into [[Kara Thrace]] at [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] and [[Cally]]'s union rally. The former colonel and captain share an unusually warm embrace, having put their differences behind them at some point in the preceding year, or Thrace being happy to see a familiar face of the ''Galactica'' family. Unfortunately, their reunion does not last as a large Cylon fleet appears in orbit over the planet and the Cylons occupy New Caprica without firing a shot. Tigh and his wife are last seen watching in utter shock as [[Cylon Centurion]]s march through the streets of New Caprica City ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

=== Occupation and Resistance ===
Two months into the occupation of New Caprica by the Cylons, Tigh is organizing and recruiting for [[New Caprica Resistance|the resistance on New Caprica]] along with [[Galen Tyrol]] and [[Jammer]]. When the Cylons begin to find the weapons hidden by the Resistance, Tigh orders them to be stored in the Temple, believing it to be the safest place as the Cylon respect the sanctity of the Temple and will not search it. When the Cylons discover the weapons, [[Nora]] is shot and [[Cally Tyrol]] and her baby barely escape. This leads several members of the [[New Caprica Resistance]] to question whether Tigh is going too far. After Tigh plans an attack that could endanger patients at a hospital, Jammer reports him to the Cylon authorities ([[Battlestar Galactica: The Resistance]]). The Cylons imprison Tigh and physically tear his right eye out. He is badly beaten and put into a small holding cell. Ellen's sexual efforts with [[Cavil]] lead to Tigh's eventual release ([[Occupation]]) though this is later revealed to be a Cylon ruse to blackmail Ellen into collaboration with the Cylons as well as find the location of a high level meeting of the Insurgency.

===Escape from New Caprica and beyond===
[[Image:Saulellen.jpg|Tigh handing Ellen her poisoned drink.|thumb]]Tigh actively participates in the exodus from New Caprica, leading an attack on the shipyard with Galen Tyrol, during which they are aided by Vipers of ''Galactica's'' [[Blue Squadron]].
[[Image:TighAdamaReunion.jpg|thumb|left|Adama welcomes Tigh back on ''Galactica'' ([[Exodus, Part II]]).]]
Following the exodus, he initially resumes his post as the Executive Officer of ''Galactica'', but is unable to conceal his contempt for those who colluded with the Cylons, such as [[Felix Gaeta]]. In a face-off with Admiral Adama, in which the senior officer orders Tigh to "sleep it off", it is clear that the events on New Caprica - most notably, his wife's death - are still adversely affecting Tigh. Following that he spends a lot of time in his quarters trying to cope with what happened to him on New Caprica and is temporarily replaced by [[Karl Agathon]].

He is also the apparent ringleader of the [[The Circle|Circle]], a group of six people authorised by then-President [[Tom Zarek]], charged with bringing collaborators to justice. Thirteen people fall victim to the Circle's mandate, including [[Jammer]] ([[Collaborators]]).

Tigh is reunited with an old comrade, [[Daniel Novacek|Daniel "Bulldog" Novacek]] and tells him the truth of his last mission. Tigh later stops him when Novacek tries to kill Adama in revenge for being the cause of him spending years as a Cylon captive ([[Hero]]).

Tigh also referees the boxing fights organized to boost morale ([[Unfinished Business]]).

He returns to duty during operations to resupply the Fleet's food stores ([[The Passage]]).

When [[Kara Thrace]] dies he is visibly heartbroken ([[Maelstrom]]), showing that he did truly care about her despite their differences, which he had begun to show in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".

As the Fleet nears the [[Ionian nebula]] and Gaius Baltar's trial begins, Tigh is one of a few people who hear mysterious music on several occasions. When called to testify in court, he shows up drunk. [[Romo Lampkin|Baltar's lawyer]] exploits this vulnerability and forces Tigh to publicly admit that he killed his wife on New Caprica ([[Crossroads, Part I]]).

Saul Tigh, [[Galen Tyrol]], [[Samuel Anders]] and [[Tory Foster]] begin to hear a [[The Music|song]] only they can hear over and over again, driving them to distraction. They eventually come to the realization that they are four of the [Final Five]] Cylons. For the moment they decide to remain loyal to the Colonials ([[Crossroads, Part II]]).

==Notes==
* Tigh's first name has been given as "Paul" on a number of websites. This is based on an early [http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/battlestar/season1/galactica-ms1.pdf version of the script] '''(PDF file)''', which has Adama speaking to "Paul" in their discussion of his fight with Kara Thrace. Since this version of the script has significant differences to the final script, its canonical value is low.
* [[Ronald D. Moore]] has indicated via the [[podcast]] commentary on the episode "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]" that the character's name initially was Paul Tigh. The name, however, had to be changed due to legal issues that Moore was unable to recall in that podcast.
* Tigh is based off the character of Paul Eddington in the movie "[[Wikipedia:In Harm's Way|In Harm's Way]]" portrayed by Kirk Douglas (with John Wayne).
* Tigh's age is one of the only ones which can be accurately deduced. In a [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/202/deleted1.html deleted scene] from [[Valley of Darkness]], we learn that he was serving on the [[Brenik]] when it was boarded during the second year of the Cylon War. Tigh tells us that he was "just a kid. Virgin. Teenager." We know that [[Colonial Day (holiday)|Colonial Day]] is the anniversary of both the unification of the Colonies, and (roughly) the outbreak of the Cylon War (Source: [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/04/index.html#a000025 RDM, April 11, 2005]), and was 52 years ago ([[Colonial Day]]). Thus, Tigh is between 63 and 69 years old at the beginning of season 2. Season Three begins about two years after this conversation.
* In the DVD commentary of "[[Act of Contrition]]", Ron Moore notes that actor [[Michael Hogan]] won the role of Tigh over [[Donnelly Rhodes]], who was one of two other actors vying for the part. Rhodes however went on to play the role of [[Cottle|Dr. Cottle]], ''Galactica'''s CMO.

{{start box}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown)''|title=Executive Officer of the [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''|after=[[Karl Agathon]]}}
{{succession box|before=[[Karl Agathon]]|title=Executive Officer of the [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica (RDM)| Galactica]]'' |after=[[Karl Agathon]]}}
{{end box}}

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:Characters|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:Characters (RDM)|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:Main Characters (RDM)|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:Cylons|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:RDM|Tigh, Saul]]

[[de:Saul Tigh]]
[[fr:Saul Tigh]]

{{featured article candidate previous}}

Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques

2007-06-16T05:23:57Z

Sauron18: /* Adama/Tigh Meeting */

{{project|Official Communique's|image=BSG WIKI Official CrewCast.png|shortcut=BW:OC}}

Members of '''''Battlestar Wiki''''': This page is to coordinate all questions to any official members of the cast or crew of "[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]." Please sign your question after you are done. The "summary" of the question should be be first, if any, and then the questions, in short form, should be placed at the bottom. This is to not confuse people and to keep the questions distinctive.

Cast/Crew: These are questions we are seeking answers to. If you have the time, please answer them as best you can. We will move these questions/answers to the correct page once they have been done. You can also check out ''[[:md:Category:Seeking Official Information|Category:Seeking Official Information]]'' for larger items - particularly pictures.

All questions which have been previously answered can be found on the archive pages. Questions get moved to the archives once items and questions stemming from the issue have stopped.

<div align="center">
{| class="toc plainlinks" summary="Notice"
|-
| [[Image:BSG WIKI Caution.png]]
| [[Bradley Thompson]] is very busy. It might be a while before he answers questions.
|}
</div>

{{ArchiveTOC}}

{{Newsection link}}

__TOC__

== Intro, survivor count for Crossroads, Part I ==

The latest episode, "[[Crossroads, Part I]]", did not have an intro movie (time constraints?), nor did it show a survivor count. I personally don't care much about the intro movie (since we get back actual episode content), but there are a lot of die-hard fans here eager to know the survivor count. What was the count for Crossroads, Part I? Is Part II going to have an intro and a survivor count? Have you abolished the intro movie altogether? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:15, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
:The survivor count was on the board during the trial. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 18:54, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
::No, the number of people who escaped New Caprica was on the board. "Crossroads" takes place 2 to 3 months later. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:37, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

== Number of Season Four episodes ==

I realize this was only just announced, and you may not know or be able to comment, but there seems to be confusion over what exactly the 22 episode season order entails. Alongside this announcement, there is confirmation of the made for TV movie, which Sci-Fi is describing as "a special two-hour extended episode." The thing that people are unsure of is whether the movie counts toward the 22 episode count. Will the movie count as two episodes, and then Season Four proper will be the standard 20 episode? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 17:39, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

I don't know how SciFi is going to label the "seasons" but the 22 episodes are broken down as such: 2 for the "Special Extended Episode." We come back to where season three left off at episode #3 and do a cliff-hanger at episode 12. Then we have 10 more to bring the series to its resolution. That adds up to 22. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 21:56, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Faster-Than-Light Stuff ==

Hi there. We know that Ron Moore's goal for the show, as stated in his [[Naturalistic science fiction]] essay, was not to use incredulous science for the show, for instance, faster-than-light travel. We have a little debate if that applied to faster-than-light communications. Several instances appeared where Cylon downloading and communications may move faster than light. We understand that "FTL" travel is apparent-FTL through the [[FTL|wormhole theory]], but has there been a change to how writers handle, say, communications between Cylons at long range (like between one basestar to the infected one in "[[Torn]]"). Did Boomer's consciousness go to a Resurrection Ship and then to Caprica, or traveled farther, relayed, or some other process? If you like, you can see the extended debate in the [[Talk:Faster-than-light communication]] article to note our confusion. If true-FTL does not exist anywhere in the Re-imagined universe, we'll just tack it up to a continuity error that, I feel at least, is for cinematic purposes so a story doesn't get all overly technical or complicated. Thanks. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:07, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
:Let me ask me more precise question: how do the Cylons manage to appear at the Fleet's previous position less than 12 hours after it jumped away? The Fleet must be making multi-lightyear jumps, since their destination (the Ionian nebula) is thousands of lightyears away. Does the radiation signature from the ''[[Daru Mozu]]'' travel faster than light? The radiation signature from the [[Cloud 9]] blast did travel at lightspeed. Do the Cylons have some other way of tracking the Fleet? Or is it simply a continuity error? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 03:48, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
::Note that we can't be sure the Cylons really traced them with the radiation signature. That is only what Six suggested they "might have done." Six might even be lying -- not about the signature's presence, but about how usable it is for tracking -- to cover up the real tracking method. But most of all, the Cylon fleet at Ionia didn't track them there using the radiation signature because the Mining ship was off elsewhere as a decoy.
::Now that said, since an FTL radiation signature seems unlikely, this would imply that if used, the radiation signature somehow allows the Cylons to track where a ship has jumped from its origination point. ie. that somehow the mining ship radiated its target jump coordinates. It's never said, but the colonials clearly believe it is not possible to tell where a ship jumped to, but the only ways to track a jumping ship would be either that, or an FTL transmission from the destination.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 18:05, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::The radiation signature is definitely a buy. Our Tech guy, Kevin Grazier (who put the cameras on Cassini) came up with a more accurate explanation (after all, space is chock full of radiation and FTL emanations would get lost in the clutter), but because radiation sounded simpler, that's what ended up in the show. Originally, the sick ship in Torn was detected by scouts sent by the main unit of the Cylon fleet and the message relayed back to them when the scouts returned. I'm not sure if that bit of legwork remained in the final cut. Finally, there might still be Cylon agents in the colonial fleet, tracking devices left on the ships from New Caprica - the Cylons aren't going to give up all their technological secrets that easily, especially regarding the transmission of the massive amounts of data involved in the resurrection process -- [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:06, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Identity of the Final Five ==

Out of curosity, how long have you guys known who the final five are? I know Ron Moore's made comments that indicate that these were more recent decisions, but I was just curious at what point did you guys decide on who were going to be Cylons, and what really went into that decision. Thanks! [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 16:55, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

::Four of the five were recent. If memory serves, the fifth (which may change) we've been kicking around since about the end of Season One. -- [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:08, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Production numbers ==

There is a question about the actual production numbers behind the series. For instance, there is some information on the internet where the production numbers differ. For instance, some are formatted like ("T2701") -- an alleged production number for "[[Occupation]]" -- while others are formatted as 03001 (or even 301). Just wanted to know what exactly the actual "production number" should look like. Thanks Bradley! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:58, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

: I believe that the T27nn numbers are internal Warner Bros. numbers for the Comcast tapes that they made and fed to Comcast. I believe the 030nn numbers correspond to the production office assignments to the episodes, i.e., where 03019 is the production number for 'Crossroads, Part 2'. Thanks for helping in clearing this up.[[User:Vidiot|Vidiot]] 01:11, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

:::Sorry, I don't have that answer. Here we see them as "Season 4/ Episode 5 /405 / 04005. The other numbers arrive from a mysterious source. And the financial paperwork tends to have numbers that are altogether different. Let me know what you find out. -- [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:11, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Xeno vs Zeno Fenner (Dirty Hands) ==

Currently we have him as "[[Xeno Fenner|Xeno]]", but the SciFi website lists him as "Zeno". Do you know which version is correct? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:07, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

::The shooting script has him listed as Xeno Fenner. Any changes beyond that are news to me. -- [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:13, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Cylon numbers ==

Although we've been flooded with Cylon identities lately (we now know 11 of the 12 models), we still know only four numbers ([[Number Three|Three]], [[Number Five|Five]], [[Number Six|Six]] and [[Number Eight|Eight]]). Could you enlighten us as to the numbers of the other seven known Cylons? If you can't tell us that, can you at least tell us whether these numbers will be revealed in [[Season 4 (2008)|Season Four]]? It would also be interesting to know if the one remaining Cylon is indeed Number One, as we suspected. Thanks in advance. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 11:24, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

::We have deliberately not nailed those numbers down. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:15, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Centurions and the final five ==

We already know [[Centurion]]s are hard-coded not to hurt the Significant Seven. Does the same go for the [[final five]]? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 11:51, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
:We've seen em shoot at Anders, so I'd say no. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:44, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
::They've also shot at Athena, though in neither case have they hit the target Cylon. Also, it hasn't been stated that they are hard-coded to not hurt the Seven (unless ordered, as by Three), only that they aren't sentient enough to rebel against them. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:34, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Alright, rephrase: do the Centurions 'know' the final five? Would they take orders from them? Or are they just as ignorant as the Seven? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 04:17, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
::::Well it seems logical that the Seven programmed the Centurions, so I don't think the Centurions would know what the Seven don't. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:11, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::To be fair that's actually quite the assumption; the Significant Seven don't know who programmed them, so I don't think it's a stretch to consider that they don't know who did the base program of the Centurions either. There's enough to go either way with it, so I think the question given here is a valid one. [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 15:54, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::Actually that's a good point. for some reason I assumed the Seven programmed the rest. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:44, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

:This thread has pretty much covered everything we've decided to let slip. -- [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:17, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

==Adama/Tigh Meeting==
Hello, Mr. Thompson. Given the recent revelations about Tigh a lot of people have become interested on when he met Adama, but when we look back we have 2 conflicting sources. So I was wondering if you could maybe tell us which is considered to be the real one? Without revealing anything of course.

Now, we saw them meet in the flashbacks in “Scattered”, which are mentioned in the podcast [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Podcast:Scattered] to be 20 years before the miniseries, and this also seems to fit with how they look and such.

However, in “Torn” Adama says he has known Tigh for 30 years, and though admittedly it’s now technically 22-23 years after their official meeting, “30” is still a long way. It’s quite possible that Adama was dramatizing for the purpose of connecting to Tigh, but either way it creates doubt.

So my question was, is the timeline we were originally presented the official one or is it different? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:18, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

:::Adama is exaggerating for effect. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:20, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

::::Awesome, thank you for taking the time :) --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 00:23, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

== Spelling of carom and meaning of DRADIS ==

There has been some [[Talk:Dradis|debate]] recently as to how [[carom]] is spelled. Some say carom, some karam, and some charagm. The subtitles spell it as carom, are they right? How do the scripts spell it? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 02:32, 16 April 2007 (CDT)

And for that matter, do you have consistent meaning of "DRADIS"? We currently have "Direction, RAnge and DIStance" which fits with recon photography, but is somewhat redundant. Someone suggested "Direction, Right Ascension and DISstance" which would fit as well. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:46, 16 April 2007 (CDT)

:I thought DRADIS meant "Direction and RADial DIStance," which would make perfect sense.
--[[User:123home123|123home123]] 03:25, 3 June 2007 (CDT)

::Carom is, well, carom. Not sure about dradis, but since you know what it does... - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:22, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Roslin and the Admiral ==

Following on from the discussion at [[Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation]]... in the [[Podcast:Frak Party Q and A|frak party podcast]], RDM said that he decided against Mary and Edward being in the four revealed Cylons because it would take something away from the series. Does this mean that unequivocally the Admiral and Roslin are not the final Cylon? --[[User:SSH|SSH]] 04:32, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

::Nothing's unequivocal until you see it on the screen. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:23, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Gun Nomenclature-revisited ==

In a previous article there seemed to be a writing staff debate on what the various types of capital and Viper guns were...some people on the staff appeared to prefer railguns and some chemical weapons. You can plausibly have both in the setting, here's how and why.

The only needed science is that real world railguns can theoretically acheive higher muzzle velocities than chemical weapons, but the electrical power sources for a rail gun are very large and heavy. So:

-Vipers and Raiders would carry chemically propelled rounds b/c they cannot mount the necessary power supplies. Also, they do not need the higher muzzle velocities of railguns - Vipers have higher closing velocities on their targets...ie. the Viper's drives provide aprt of the shell's velocity.

-Battlestar batteries - These vessels fight at low velocities relative to other cap ships. Also, they carry thicker armor. Hence, they need higher velocity shells to damage similarly armored targets. Also, BSG's are large enough to carry large power supplies.

Your art staff needn't worry either, actual railguns produce visible muzzle flash due to the vaporization of portions of the round
[http://www.eng.auburn.edu/department/ece/railgun/ Auburn railgun firing]

Hope this helps...assuming the debate is still going on. [[User:Feld|Feld]] 19:04, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

== What is "Razor"? ==

Dear Mr. Thompson, the first S4 casting information [http://www.sidesexpress.com/se_index.cfm?locid=5&task=type&l=5&c=battlestar#sr has surfaced]. The sheets say #401/402 "Razor" will feature Young Helena (Cain?) and Helena's father, among others. Could you please clarify whether this information refers to the TV movie about the ''Pegasus'' or to the genuine S4 premiere? -- [[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 17:20, 3 May 2007 (CDT)
: According to [http://www.myentertainmentworld.com/mew/audition_film-tv.html#sr this] is safe to say that Razor is TV Movie about Pegasus. --[[User:Deus|Deus]] 15:12, 6 May 2007 (CDT)
:: Aah, I just love your scoops. :-) --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 15:30, 6 May 2007 (CDT)
:::Thanks, but unfortunately this one is not mine... It was found by Countess Persephone at Ragnar Anchorage.--[[User:Deus|Deus]] 16:21, 6 May 2007 (CDT)
:::: What I find interesting is that they are casting the role of the Hybrid (probably a Basestar CPU [[Hybrid]], but it could be something else), meaning it may be someone other than Tiffany Lyndall-Knight. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:50, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
::::: OK, I'd say that [http://nbcumv.com/distribution/release_detail.nbc/scifi-20070601000000-039galactica039.html?international=1#sr this] confirms the Razor title... --[[User:Deus|Deus]] 19:04, 3 June 2007 (CDT)
::::::Even the Sci Fi Channel can err, and has. That same article shows character names, and most of them are incorrectly spelled. Such information has changed at the last minute before, and trying to "lock" it down before the episode is advertised on-screen is likely to burn us. Right now, the movie article has a redirect link with this title, so for now we'll just leave things as-is for the article. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:14, 3 June 2007 (CDT)

The Season 4 Premiere is Episode #3 - but Razor will reveal something that will affect what happens in Season 4 - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:26, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

==Season 4 First Episode Title==

The same source cited above by Pedda also names "[[He That Believath In Me]]" as the title for the first [[Season 4]] episode. Is this name correct? Is the misspelling intentional? TIA. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:10, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

:: No, we don't spell quite that badly. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:27, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

== Radio/"Wireless" interference effect? ==

Hi. I am curious in how this effect was produced, namely the effect heard in various scenes such as the Galactica communicating with its fighters as well as the wireless stand off dialog between Adama and Cain. Due to the rather offside nature of this question, I am aware that it is unlikely to find a guide of such, but I do seek ways in producing this somewhat interesting effect for things like fanmade game mods - for this effect does provide a very indepth feeling of using "antique" tech. I am referring to that double tone disorted voice during speech over commlines. Thank you for any hints, links, advicce. I "apollo"gize ;) for the unusual question - I hope it is not too far out what I am asking.
On the side note, I must say being a writer for BSG must be fun, wish I could something alike. --[[User:Lork|Lork]] 06:05, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

:: It's a great question, one that the sound and post guys have proudly explained to me -- they actually transmit the dialogue over a wireless and record the result from the receiver. The static, though controllable, is the real deal. And yes, writing for Battlestar is the best job in the world. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 22:31, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon/Archive4

2007-06-14T19:10:30Z

Sauron18: /*Link Problem*/

{{ArchiveTOC}}

== Term "significant seven" ==

We've used various names for the original faction of 7 Cylons seen in the show. RDM revealed that the internal writer's term for them is the "significant seven" (a pun on the movie title) so I got the impression we try to use the internal terms rather than trying to make up a term, but I've seen edits in both directions. Likewise the term "final five" which is actually used in scripts (though I have always though it odd as a term the 7 would use for themselves.) If people don't like the writer's term we should standardize on one term which may even get a page -- first seven, original seven, "the seven," "genocidal seven" etc.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 02:42, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
: We try to use the same terms that the writers use, more often than not. So, yes, "Significant Seven" and the "Final Five" should be the terms we use -- until something better comes along. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 05:09, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::OK. I've updated the page with the reference in the "Final five" section (where its most germane) and created a redirect for any uses of "Significant seven" to go to that section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:30, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

==Listing death of Cylon humanoids?==
I was under the impression that Cylons can't die unless they can't resurrect. Death is permanent, is it not? The "Death" listings are only destructions of the body, not of the mind. As far as I'm concerned, only those that didn't resurrect after suffering bodily destruction are dead.

In the Elder Scrolls fantasy universe, the Daedra are a group of higher beings immune to death in a similar manner (though not reliant on some apparatus for resurrection). They are not considered "killed" when they suffer destruction of their corporeal form, but are called "Banished", because of their immunity to death.

I propose that individual cylon humanoids have "death" and "resurrection" made separate from each other, as they don't truly die unless they can't resurrect upon loss of their body. --[[user:MadCat|MadCat]], 2:11 PM CDT June 4, 2007

: I'm not opposed to removing the various models' deaths from the "death" portion of the infobox, unless they die permanently (i.e. they're not able to resurrect). Deaths of their bodies, whether they were shot, doesn't count as true "death" to Cylons. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki — ''New''] 13:57, 4 June 2007 (CDT)
: Even listing resurrections is not necessarily desirable. We had that with Leoben, and he "died" so often that it was just clutter and thankfully removed. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:00, 4 June 2007 (CDT)
::I removed the death list for [[Caprica-Six]], and I suggest we remove it for the other Cylons as well. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 14:43, 4 June 2007 (CDT)
:Something I just thought up that may be a gray area in this regard: What of Boxing? Would that be considered death in this context? Or is it not because the consciousness wasn't lost? --[[user:MadCat|MadCat]], 3:22 PM CDT June 4, 2007
::In my opinion, boxing is death. The only "deaths" we've got left for humanoid Cylons are for [[Gina]] (who actually died without being resurrected) and for [[Number Three]] (whose entire line was boxed). I've removed the death list for [[Sharon Valerii]], as she's still alive. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 15:12, 4 June 2007 (CDT)
:::I remove death references for Cylons unless permanent ([[Gina]]) or boxed. Too much clutter in that template, which for concise bullets on a character, not for extensive lists of anything. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:04, 4 June 2007 (CDT)
::The only "death" we know of for certain would be Gina, since her consciousness has absolutely no way of being retrieved or reintegrated. As I understand it, boxing of a Cylon model isn't "death", but merely putting a Cylon in "cold storage". While it might be doubtful that the Cylons would "unbox" a boxed Cylon, there is still a possibility that it can be done. With that, boxing isn't really full and total death, a la Gina. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki — ''New''] 16:05, 4 June 2007 (CDT)

==Link Problem==
Our links to the RDM interview on www.thefandom.com don't seem to be working anymore, and this has caused people in the fan community to doubt the veracity of the interview and the information contained within it. Given how the interview is so important to the nature of Cylons, I thought I should mention it. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:10, 14 June 2007 (CDT)