Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Hero/Archive2

2006-11-20T19:24:23Z

Rose Immortal: /* The scene with Baltar, Six and Three in bed */

== Can We compare Adama to President George....Washington? :) ==
I was reading the quote from Eick, "...Adama begins to believe that on some level he might have been responsible for provoking the Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies." and for some reason I felt that thie reminded me of Gorge Washington long before we was president or even commander-in-chief when, before the 7-Years-War, Washington was involved in a skirmish with the French over Fort Necessity, aka Pittsburgh (yes, we fought a battle for that city) that led to Washington signing a treaty stating, unbeknownst to him because he couldn't speak French and his interpreter sucked, that he committed attrocities against France in the name of the British Empire. This, according to many historians, led to the 7 Years War, known in America as the French and Indian War, that would decimate Northern Germany. I'm sure Washington at some level had to be aware of this error on his part and led him to remorse I imagine. Anyways, the story is different but I was wondering how many parallels there will be, if there will be, in this episode to Washington's conundrum. I wanted to ask a question on the article page but couldn't concise it enough for wiki standards. I may ask on the scifi bboard but input on this would be appreciated before I do. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 19:42, 3 August 2006 (PST)
:That's an interesting analogy, showing a fine attention to historical detail. I think the parallel has minor flaws, though, since Washington's conduct in that matter isn't generally considered morally wrong so much as foolish. [[Wikipedia:Gavrilo Princip|Gavrilo Princip]] might be worth considering as a parallel; he was the immediate but not ultimate cause of a devastating war, and he precipitated the conflict by attacking his fellow countryman, thinking it justified in contrast to the general consensus. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 02:28, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

:: It's unlikely that Adama's actions are quite the transgression that he believes it to be; after all, the [[cylon agent|Cylons had been violating the armistice line]] for about a half a year prior to Adama's, anyway.[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 02:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)

::: I was wondering about the timeline as well. I think Adama says somthing like, the mission was a year before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|attack]], but the cylons had been planning the attack for two years. However, I think there is an error in the timeline. Adama also says he served with Boomer for two years, and I think he implied that it was on Galactica. Gaeta also says that he served with Adama for three years. It is possible that Gaeta was on the Valkyrie for a year, but I think the mission happened about two years before the attack, not just one. I will rewatch the episode, but do you have any ideas? [[User:Jrmurph|Jrmurph]] 12:21, 18 November 2006 (EST)
:::: I think there is an inconsistency in the story. It is not unexplainable, ie Gaeta and Boomer served with Adama on the Valkyrie, but it did seem like nobody other than Adama or Tigh recognized Bulldog so the timeline is a little esquew. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:01, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Another Battlestar? ==
There is a spoiler image showing Adm Adama and Col Tigh in the CIC of the Battlestar Valkerie. I zoomed in on Adama and saw he had his Admiral's pins on. Might this be a sign that they soon will find yet another Battlestar? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:24, 15 November 2006 (CST)
: It's a flashback scene. It may be more of a costuming error. Note that Tigh still has his eye in that promo shot. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 01:39, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:: Right. Two eyed Tigh. Darn. I was hoping they'd find another Battlestar cause I do miss the Pegasus. It was bigger, much cooler and the doors made this cool "beep" when they opened. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:50, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:::You can visit [[Valkyrie]] as well. It's a spoiler until Friday but you can adjust it with some new data later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:36, 15 November 2006 (CST)
::::It's true, I saw the Admiral pips as well, the flashback should have been Commander pips; as the Stealth ship incident occurred three years ago. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 22:56, 17 November 2006 (CST)
: The Valkerie looked to be a Mercury class Battlestar. This would make sense because the galactica class was an older ship and has been all but replaced with the newer bigger and more efficent Mercury class.--[[User:Mike|Mike]] 09:30, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It's definately not a Mercury, the only part really similar is the engine block. If anything, it looked most like a reimagining of the original series battlestar, down to the rectangular opening in the flightpod and the angular head. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::Inside it looks like a Mercury yes. That's a sign of its age. But outside, it's far smaller than a full-sized battlestar. Look at the gun battery on the top. There's only one and almost covers the width of the ship there. See the Valkyrie page for more details (where this discussion should take place), but I think it's basically a smaller battlestar meant for support duties. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:52, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:: Not disagreeing with your main point, but its quite possible that there were far more Battlestar classes than just the "Cylon War Type" and the Mecurcy class, given that the colonies built up a fleet of arround 120 Battlestars over about 50 years, particularly as the Viper apparently went through 5 different itterations over this time, although we are likely never going to see the intervening versions of either type --[[User:Useless|Useless]] 09:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Barry Kennedy as Admiral Corman ==

Hey all, I was just checking on Barry Kennedy's link, and it links to an IMDB page other than his profile page detailing his filmography, and etc. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 23:52, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:That's because some people keep forgeting the "nm" when entering imdb numbers and in that case the link default to title instead of actor --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:53, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The Stealth-Star==
hey i just noticed this but the name of the ship was the stealth star so someone(not me)should create it a page. Best Snorkel378
:Already done [[Stealth Star]]. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:41, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The scene with Baltar, Six and Three in bed==
it says on there that 3 is having a sexual realationship with baltar and six?
Cylons arent lesbos i think they were having a 3some {{unsigned|Snorkel378}}
:You are assuming that the Six we see is Caprica-Six and not Baltar's internal Six. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 20:49, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It would be an odd choice cinematically to have Three wake up from a dream and show us something from inside Baltar's head. {{unsigned|Wldkt1}}
:::Please remembe rto sign your posts on talk pages guys <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:05, 19 November 2006 (CST)
The fact that Baltar and Six are in a 'clutch' position makes it unlikely that it's his internal Six. Three would have noticed Baltar trying to hug thin air in his sleep. Baltar is also in the center of the bed, rather than on one side. In addition, Caprica seems to be aware of (and approves) Three's new interest in Baltar. Regarding the possibility of a relationship between Three and Six: that is only speculation, but just because we haven't seen a lesbian relationship between cylons doesn't mean one isn't possible.[[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 22:18, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:It could be that Caprica-Six sees this as a way to weaken Baltar--after all, the formula for getting Baltar to give up secrets seems pretty clear: get in his bed, get in his head, so to speak. Remember that during the torture in previous episodes, he said to Three, "I love you with all of my heart." That's what started the relationship, so I think Three is interested in Baltar for whatever reason, not necessarily Six. Plus, on a more humorous note...I have to wonder if the Cylons have any sexual relations amongst themselves at all. This could be one deprived Cylon... [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:24, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==The Black Ops Mission==
Does anyone think that the entire mission was poorly concieved? First, the Colonials jump a Battlestar to very close range of the armistice line, which one would expect to attract attention in and of itself. Second, we see the ''Valkyrie'' track the S-Star after launch and over the line. This either means the Valkyrie tracked it directly on DRADIS, which indicates it's not much of a stealth ship and that the Cylons should be able to detect it as well, or the S-Star has some sort of transponder reporting its position, which is also something the Cylons should detect. Finally, as referenced in the main article, the S-Star maintains radio contact with the ''Valkyrie'' throughout the whole mission, again something the Cylons should be able to detect. Would the writers have really overlooked all this, or are we meant to conclude that the Admriality meant for the mission to have been discovered by the Cylons? --[[User:Cleophus|Cleophus]] 22:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:-The mission is quite similar to the United States' U2 overflights during the late 1950's and 60's. Certain similarities between the depicted incident and the [[:wikipedia:U-2 Crisis of 1960|incident involving Francis Gary Powers]] can be read. It also conjures up several dozen observation flights by aircraft such as specially outfitted C-130's flying perilously close to a boundary line — even going so far as to slip a wingtip across it to "call a bluff". Also, there's the incident involving the Chinese Gai-8 fighter and the US P-3 Orion.
:In the case of our Colonials here, the stealth craft is more than likely equipped with an "odd frequency" (either very low or very high), encrypted transponder that transmits on a specific wavelength, only for IFF purposes. If I recall correctly, F-117 Nighthawks can still use their radios when on ops (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I suspect that this mission was proposed in order to get a glimpse into ''any'' Cylon activity. The stealth craft would be dangled out as a tiny bit of bait – just enough to get a response. Its stealth characteristics would increase its ability to dash back across the Armistice Line untracked and unaffected, and then ''Valkyrie'' would be able to observe and record the arriving Cylons. If questions were raised ("What are you doing here?" ... "Good question, what are ''you'' doing here?" ... "We detected you over the Armistice Line." ... "Who, us? Noooo... We've been on our side this whole time, just trolling about, watching over our miners over there on that moon there. So why are you here again? You don't mind if we take some photos of you while you're here, do you?"), the Colonials would feign ignorance and innocence, but they'd at least have a response... something that the Cylons haven't even projected in thirty-plus years. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

==Folks in White Robes==
Aren't there five white-robed figures in Number Three's vision? It's pretty speculative, but maybe these are meant to represent the five missing Cylon models (maybe they've undergone some kind of transcendence, and are "with God now" or something). Maybe the article should note this (after all, the white-robes show up for the first time just a couple episodes after we first learn that there's definitely something different or mysterious about the five missing models), though I don't know the proper section for it. {{unsigned|Steve}}

:- I noticed that too, but was going to "acquire" the episode and re-watch that part, or watch it again on Monday to see... I _think_ there are five humanoid figures in white robes, kneeling or seated in that semi-circle when Three walks amongst them. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:Three's in the opera house on Kobol where Baltar's internal Six shows him Hera's cradle; I believe those are the same white drapes that can be seen on the opera house stage in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 11:38, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Reference to Raising Arizona? ==

I'm new here, so I didn't want to jump right into the thick of things by adding this to the main page before running it by other people...when Adama and Novacek are sitting down for the first time, Adama asks him something like "How did you escape, Bulldog?". Novacek rambles for a little bit (again, I don't remember exact words) but wraps up with "I felt the facility no longer had anything to offer me...". If I'm not mistaken, this is a reference to Raising Arizona--John Goodman's character says just about the exact same thing after he breaks out of prison. I can't seem to find the line on IMDB or Wikiquote, though... {{unsigned|MikeDanger}}
:Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:As far as I remember "Raising Arizona", the dialogue goes like this: 
:''- You busted outta jail?'' 
:''- No, ma'am. We released ourselves on our own recognizance.'' 
:''- What Evelle is tryin' to say is we felt the institution no longer had anything to offer us.'' -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 08:28, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Insight into Cylon plan ==
If the Cylons know where the Colonials are, or at least know well enough to send Bulldog at them, it's common sense to ask, why don't they just attack? Well, maybe their goal isn't to destroy Galactica et al outright but something more complex. One thing that does seem consistent with their plan is their desire to kill Adama, perhaps because they want to send the fleet into disarray without him at the top. Examples: Leoben telling Roslin that Adama's a Cylon in Flesh and Blood, Boomer shooting Adama repeatedly in Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. II. There may be more examples that I can't think of right now.

People have been crying out "plot hole!" with reckless abandon in light of Bulldog's ability to pinpoint Galactica's position, but if the Cylon plan really is as simple as ''kill all humans,'' as these detractors might claim, then much of the show falls apart. The reality is, we don't really know the Cylon plan, and at this point, there's really no reason to jump to the conclusion that the writers are just too lazy to think of one. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 18:22, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:The Cylons might know full well where the Colonials are but if they jumped in a couple of Basestars then the fleet would zip out of there pretty sharpish and might go somewhere where the Cylons dont know and they will have to find them all over again. IMO, their plan is a long game. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 19:17, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:IMHO, "Hero" is the weakest episode of the series yet. There's just too many logic errors for me to dismiss as part of the "suspension of disbelief" process. For instance, how does Bulldog have the time to learn how to pilot a Cylon raider, when Starbuck took hours to figure out how to operate the thing? Also, how would Bulldog be able to operate the FTL drive -- Kobol's Last Gleaming pretty much made it clear that the FTL drive needed an actual computer, given that the brain had to be ripped out in order for it to be piloted manually. But that's another not so fine mess.
: As for the Cylon plans, well, they're clearly compliated and seem to be changing since the attack. Whether or not this is by design has yet to be detrmined, though I sincerely doubt that the writer's have this thing all planned out a la ''Babylon 5''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:30, 19 November 2006 (CST)

::Yeah, I know what you're saying. I also doubt it's all planned out B5-style (hasn't Ron basically said something to that effect anyway, like how much they enjoy making it up as they go along?), but that doesn't mean it necessarily can't all add up in the end, and we should assume that they ''do'' know what they are doing until they are proven wrong.

::Also, a lot of people have been talking about how unrealistic it is for Bulldog to have learned how to operate the raider in such a short time. I'm not trying to start an arguement about this, but I don't actually remember them saying that he had only a short time to learn how to use the raider. Are you guys just assuming that he had to learn it all quickly based on the rushed nature of his escape? Is there a reason he couldn't have actually had a few hours to do it? I mean, if they let him escape, then he could have been in the basestar hangar for hours trying to work the controls while they watched (and snickered) from behind the glass. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 23:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:I agree that a lot of people have seemed predisposed to cry foul lately--I can understand how the scientific goofs in "A Measure of Salvation" could've set people on edge--but I do think it's possible that if the Cylons are operating under a religious motivation, that their plan does go beyond a simple "kill all humans" approach. They may see the need to exact specific steps of revenge/torture against humanity, perhaps a particular punishment for each perceived offense. That's just one possibility, but it could well be they have the death of a thousand cuts in mind for the remnants of humanity. I think Drumstick's probably on to something here. Or you know, if they wanted Bulldog to escape, they could have trained a Raider (which wasn't injured like Starbuck's) to understand and obey his commands or even set it up with an interface that a human could use. Until we see proof or disproof of all the different theories, I think it's too early to try to claim BsG has jumped the shark or anything similar. I also have to wonder if anybody here has writing experience with writing a full-length work. I am working on my first novel, and keeping total, perfect consistency is not easy and while I tend to get the big things right, I am still finding a lot of subtle things that need tweaking, and this despite my best efforts. [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:17, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Possible Discontinuity ==
According to the episode, Adama and friends served on the Valkyrie a year before the attacks. This implies that Adama was only commander of the Galactica for a year before the miniseries. Yet on the Kara Thrace article, it states that Thrace "resigned from flight school as a instructor and transferred as an operational pilot aboard battlestar Galactica under the command of William Adama, where she served for some '''two years prior to the Cylon attack''' on the Twelve Colonies." They can't both be right.

Also, from the Tyrol article: "He served aboard battlestars from the age of eighteen, including Columbia, Atlantia, and Pegasus (Resistance). He has served under William Adama on Galactica for five years (Litmus)." If he served under Adama for 5 years, why didn't he mention the Valkyrie when he was being intimidated by Tigh in Resistance? This could be simply because Tigh would have known that.--[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 22:16, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:No, your first impulse is correct - it's quite certainly an error.
:'''Gaeta:''' And... may I take this opportunity to say that it's been both a pleasure and an honour to serve under you [Adama], these past three years. ([[Miniseries]])
:'''Adama:''' We [Thrace and I] talked about a lot of things. We've been aboard this ship for over two years, we know each other very well. ([[Act of Contrition]])
:'''Adama:''' She [Valerii] was more than that to us. She was more than that to me. She was a vital, living person... aboard my ship for almost two years. She couldn’t have been just a machine. Could you love a machine? ([[The Farm]])
:Also, note that the timeline in Adama's dossier (which seems to be accurate based on other data points) puts his transfer to ''Galactica'' at six years prior to the miniseries.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:48, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::It is quite possible that this is not an error ''per se''. Adama and some of his command staff could easily have been assigned to the more modern Valkyrie from Galactica for the mission. It wouldn't make much sense to send "the bucket" on a stealth mission anyway. Notice Valkyrie seemed smaller and was probably more modernized, which would make it all the better for that type of mission. So Adama could easily have been in command of Galactica for several years prior, been offered command of Valkyrie as a reward, for career advancement or just for the mission... and have been pushed back to Galactica when the mission failed. Certainly the plan to decommission Galactica was in the works for some time, and they would not want one of their good commanders to retire with the ship... until after the mission where he failed. None of the characters would be expected to say "I served under Adama for some years, and some other guy for a couple of months, then Adama again." They would just say they served with him for X number of years. If we compare to the modern US Navy, this sort of thing is not all the uncommon.--[[User:Xealot|Xealot]] 10:22, 20 November 2006 (CST)
:::The dossier's progression from XO of ''Columbia'' to Commander of ''Valkyrie'' to Commander of ''Galactica'' seems to indicate that ''Valkyrie'' was his first battlestar command. Though I agree that the serve under "X years" would fly if they stayed under him. It's just the "this ship"'s that start biting them. (When they specify the ship instead of the command.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:53, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Cylon detector problems ==

There's some inconsistency with the "Cylon Detector" that Doc Cottle used to determine that Bulldog was a human. First of all, if you look at the screen caps, [http://galacticabbs.com/index.php?act=module&module=gallery&cmd=si&img=56612|like this one], you can see that the screen says "-RESULTS NEGATIVE-" If he was testing the DNA against their military records, it should say "-RESULTS POSITIVE-" If it's negative, the DNA doesn't match. That, or it's supposed to be a Cylon Detector, and it's saying that he's not a Cylon. It seems like it could be a simple goof between dialogue and props.

However, going along with the DNA reasoning... that doesn't necessarily prove anything, does it? If they tested Boomer's DNA against the DNA they have on record for her, I assume it's going to match, since they probably took Cylon DNA initially. Who's to say that the same thing didn't happen to Bulldog? In that case, his DNA would match, but he'd be a Cylon. Seems like a poor determiner of race, that's all. I don't think that he's necessarily a Cylon, just that this is another "oops."

--It might prove something...if the Colonials have DNA records going all the way back to a person's birth. If they're matching against that kind of original record (heck, maybe they even have the parents' records, too), then that may well constitute proof. [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:06, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Moved content ==

Folks, stuff like this needs to be removed (or reworded) on sight. Right now, this document reads a bit like it's arguing with itself. Before adding content that seems to contradict itself, please discuss it on the talk page -- that's what this feature is for.

Below, here's what I've removed thus far from the article that contradicts itself. Stuff like this, ''again'', must be hashed out on talk pages before entering the main article space. Thank you. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:52, 20 November 2006 (CST)

=== Removed content ===

*[[Dualla]] apparently served on the Valkyrie; she can be seen in the background standing behind Adama and Tigh in the flashback scenes.
**That person in the scene is most likley not Dualla; it's not easy to see because the flashback-scenes in the CIC have (deliberatly) not the best quality.

Talk:Hero/Archive2

2006-11-20T19:17:24Z

Rose Immortal: /* Insight into Cylon plan */

== Can We compare Adama to President George....Washington? :) ==
I was reading the quote from Eick, "...Adama begins to believe that on some level he might have been responsible for provoking the Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies." and for some reason I felt that thie reminded me of Gorge Washington long before we was president or even commander-in-chief when, before the 7-Years-War, Washington was involved in a skirmish with the French over Fort Necessity, aka Pittsburgh (yes, we fought a battle for that city) that led to Washington signing a treaty stating, unbeknownst to him because he couldn't speak French and his interpreter sucked, that he committed attrocities against France in the name of the British Empire. This, according to many historians, led to the 7 Years War, known in America as the French and Indian War, that would decimate Northern Germany. I'm sure Washington at some level had to be aware of this error on his part and led him to remorse I imagine. Anyways, the story is different but I was wondering how many parallels there will be, if there will be, in this episode to Washington's conundrum. I wanted to ask a question on the article page but couldn't concise it enough for wiki standards. I may ask on the scifi bboard but input on this would be appreciated before I do. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 19:42, 3 August 2006 (PST)
:That's an interesting analogy, showing a fine attention to historical detail. I think the parallel has minor flaws, though, since Washington's conduct in that matter isn't generally considered morally wrong so much as foolish. [[Wikipedia:Gavrilo Princip|Gavrilo Princip]] might be worth considering as a parallel; he was the immediate but not ultimate cause of a devastating war, and he precipitated the conflict by attacking his fellow countryman, thinking it justified in contrast to the general consensus. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 02:28, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

:: It's unlikely that Adama's actions are quite the transgression that he believes it to be; after all, the [[cylon agent|Cylons had been violating the armistice line]] for about a half a year prior to Adama's, anyway.[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 02:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)

::: I was wondering about the timeline as well. I think Adama says somthing like, the mission was a year before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|attack]], but the cylons had been planning the attack for two years. However, I think there is an error in the timeline. Adama also says he served with Boomer for two years, and I think he implied that it was on Galactica. Gaeta also says that he served with Adama for three years. It is possible that Gaeta was on the Valkyrie for a year, but I think the mission happened about two years before the attack, not just one. I will rewatch the episode, but do you have any ideas? [[User:Jrmurph|Jrmurph]] 12:21, 18 November 2006 (EST)
:::: I think there is an inconsistency in the story. It is not unexplainable, ie Gaeta and Boomer served with Adama on the Valkyrie, but it did seem like nobody other than Adama or Tigh recognized Bulldog so the timeline is a little esquew. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:01, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Another Battlestar? ==
There is a spoiler image showing Adm Adama and Col Tigh in the CIC of the Battlestar Valkerie. I zoomed in on Adama and saw he had his Admiral's pins on. Might this be a sign that they soon will find yet another Battlestar? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:24, 15 November 2006 (CST)
: It's a flashback scene. It may be more of a costuming error. Note that Tigh still has his eye in that promo shot. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 01:39, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:: Right. Two eyed Tigh. Darn. I was hoping they'd find another Battlestar cause I do miss the Pegasus. It was bigger, much cooler and the doors made this cool "beep" when they opened. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:50, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:::You can visit [[Valkyrie]] as well. It's a spoiler until Friday but you can adjust it with some new data later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:36, 15 November 2006 (CST)
::::It's true, I saw the Admiral pips as well, the flashback should have been Commander pips; as the Stealth ship incident occurred three years ago. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 22:56, 17 November 2006 (CST)
: The Valkerie looked to be a Mercury class Battlestar. This would make sense because the galactica class was an older ship and has been all but replaced with the newer bigger and more efficent Mercury class.--[[User:Mike|Mike]] 09:30, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It's definately not a Mercury, the only part really similar is the engine block. If anything, it looked most like a reimagining of the original series battlestar, down to the rectangular opening in the flightpod and the angular head. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::Inside it looks like a Mercury yes. That's a sign of its age. But outside, it's far smaller than a full-sized battlestar. Look at the gun battery on the top. There's only one and almost covers the width of the ship there. See the Valkyrie page for more details (where this discussion should take place), but I think it's basically a smaller battlestar meant for support duties. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:52, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:: Not disagreeing with your main point, but its quite possible that there were far more Battlestar classes than just the "Cylon War Type" and the Mecurcy class, given that the colonies built up a fleet of arround 120 Battlestars over about 50 years, particularly as the Viper apparently went through 5 different itterations over this time, although we are likely never going to see the intervening versions of either type --[[User:Useless|Useless]] 09:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Barry Kennedy as Admiral Corman ==

Hey all, I was just checking on Barry Kennedy's link, and it links to an IMDB page other than his profile page detailing his filmography, and etc. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 23:52, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:That's because some people keep forgeting the "nm" when entering imdb numbers and in that case the link default to title instead of actor --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:53, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The Stealth-Star==
hey i just noticed this but the name of the ship was the stealth star so someone(not me)should create it a page. Best Snorkel378
:Already done [[Stealth Star]]. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:41, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The scene with Baltar, Six and Three in bed==
it says on there that 3 is having a sexual realationship with baltar and six?
Cylons arent lesbos i think they were having a 3some {{unsigned|Snorkel378}}
:You are assuming that the Six we see is Caprica-Six and not Baltar's internal Six. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 20:49, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It would be an odd choice cinematically to have Three wake up from a dream and show us something from inside Baltar's head. {{unsigned|Wldkt1}}
:::Please remembe rto sign your posts on talk pages guys <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:05, 19 November 2006 (CST)
The fact that Baltar and Six are in a 'clutch' position makes it unlikely that it's his internal Six. Three would have noticed Baltar trying to hug thin air in his sleep. Baltar is also in the center of the bed, rather than on one side. In addition, Caprica seems to be aware of (and approves) Three's new interest in Baltar. Regarding the possibility of a relationship between Three and Six: that is only speculation, but just because we haven't seen a lesbian relationship between cylons doesn't mean one isn't possible.[[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 22:18, 19 November 2006 (CST)

==The Black Ops Mission==
Does anyone think that the entire mission was poorly concieved? First, the Colonials jump a Battlestar to very close range of the armistice line, which one would expect to attract attention in and of itself. Second, we see the ''Valkyrie'' track the S-Star after launch and over the line. This either means the Valkyrie tracked it directly on DRADIS, which indicates it's not much of a stealth ship and that the Cylons should be able to detect it as well, or the S-Star has some sort of transponder reporting its position, which is also something the Cylons should detect. Finally, as referenced in the main article, the S-Star maintains radio contact with the ''Valkyrie'' throughout the whole mission, again something the Cylons should be able to detect. Would the writers have really overlooked all this, or are we meant to conclude that the Admriality meant for the mission to have been discovered by the Cylons? --[[User:Cleophus|Cleophus]] 22:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:-The mission is quite similar to the United States' U2 overflights during the late 1950's and 60's. Certain similarities between the depicted incident and the [[:wikipedia:U-2 Crisis of 1960|incident involving Francis Gary Powers]] can be read. It also conjures up several dozen observation flights by aircraft such as specially outfitted C-130's flying perilously close to a boundary line — even going so far as to slip a wingtip across it to "call a bluff". Also, there's the incident involving the Chinese Gai-8 fighter and the US P-3 Orion.
:In the case of our Colonials here, the stealth craft is more than likely equipped with an "odd frequency" (either very low or very high), encrypted transponder that transmits on a specific wavelength, only for IFF purposes. If I recall correctly, F-117 Nighthawks can still use their radios when on ops (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I suspect that this mission was proposed in order to get a glimpse into ''any'' Cylon activity. The stealth craft would be dangled out as a tiny bit of bait – just enough to get a response. Its stealth characteristics would increase its ability to dash back across the Armistice Line untracked and unaffected, and then ''Valkyrie'' would be able to observe and record the arriving Cylons. If questions were raised ("What are you doing here?" ... "Good question, what are ''you'' doing here?" ... "We detected you over the Armistice Line." ... "Who, us? Noooo... We've been on our side this whole time, just trolling about, watching over our miners over there on that moon there. So why are you here again? You don't mind if we take some photos of you while you're here, do you?"), the Colonials would feign ignorance and innocence, but they'd at least have a response... something that the Cylons haven't even projected in thirty-plus years. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

==Folks in White Robes==
Aren't there five white-robed figures in Number Three's vision? It's pretty speculative, but maybe these are meant to represent the five missing Cylon models (maybe they've undergone some kind of transcendence, and are "with God now" or something). Maybe the article should note this (after all, the white-robes show up for the first time just a couple episodes after we first learn that there's definitely something different or mysterious about the five missing models), though I don't know the proper section for it. {{unsigned|Steve}}

:- I noticed that too, but was going to "acquire" the episode and re-watch that part, or watch it again on Monday to see... I _think_ there are five humanoid figures in white robes, kneeling or seated in that semi-circle when Three walks amongst them. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:Three's in the opera house on Kobol where Baltar's internal Six shows him Hera's cradle; I believe those are the same white drapes that can be seen on the opera house stage in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 11:38, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Reference to Raising Arizona? ==

I'm new here, so I didn't want to jump right into the thick of things by adding this to the main page before running it by other people...when Adama and Novacek are sitting down for the first time, Adama asks him something like "How did you escape, Bulldog?". Novacek rambles for a little bit (again, I don't remember exact words) but wraps up with "I felt the facility no longer had anything to offer me...". If I'm not mistaken, this is a reference to Raising Arizona--John Goodman's character says just about the exact same thing after he breaks out of prison. I can't seem to find the line on IMDB or Wikiquote, though... {{unsigned|MikeDanger}}
:Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:As far as I remember "Raising Arizona", the dialogue goes like this: 
:''- You busted outta jail?'' 
:''- No, ma'am. We released ourselves on our own recognizance.'' 
:''- What Evelle is tryin' to say is we felt the institution no longer had anything to offer us.'' -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 08:28, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Insight into Cylon plan ==
If the Cylons know where the Colonials are, or at least know well enough to send Bulldog at them, it's common sense to ask, why don't they just attack? Well, maybe their goal isn't to destroy Galactica et al outright but something more complex. One thing that does seem consistent with their plan is their desire to kill Adama, perhaps because they want to send the fleet into disarray without him at the top. Examples: Leoben telling Roslin that Adama's a Cylon in Flesh and Blood, Boomer shooting Adama repeatedly in Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. II. There may be more examples that I can't think of right now.

People have been crying out "plot hole!" with reckless abandon in light of Bulldog's ability to pinpoint Galactica's position, but if the Cylon plan really is as simple as ''kill all humans,'' as these detractors might claim, then much of the show falls apart. The reality is, we don't really know the Cylon plan, and at this point, there's really no reason to jump to the conclusion that the writers are just too lazy to think of one. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 18:22, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:The Cylons might know full well where the Colonials are but if they jumped in a couple of Basestars then the fleet would zip out of there pretty sharpish and might go somewhere where the Cylons dont know and they will have to find them all over again. IMO, their plan is a long game. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 19:17, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:IMHO, "Hero" is the weakest episode of the series yet. There's just too many logic errors for me to dismiss as part of the "suspension of disbelief" process. For instance, how does Bulldog have the time to learn how to pilot a Cylon raider, when Starbuck took hours to figure out how to operate the thing? Also, how would Bulldog be able to operate the FTL drive -- Kobol's Last Gleaming pretty much made it clear that the FTL drive needed an actual computer, given that the brain had to be ripped out in order for it to be piloted manually. But that's another not so fine mess.
: As for the Cylon plans, well, they're clearly compliated and seem to be changing since the attack. Whether or not this is by design has yet to be detrmined, though I sincerely doubt that the writer's have this thing all planned out a la ''Babylon 5''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:30, 19 November 2006 (CST)

::Yeah, I know what you're saying. I also doubt it's all planned out B5-style (hasn't Ron basically said something to that effect anyway, like how much they enjoy making it up as they go along?), but that doesn't mean it necessarily can't all add up in the end, and we should assume that they ''do'' know what they are doing until they are proven wrong.

::Also, a lot of people have been talking about how unrealistic it is for Bulldog to have learned how to operate the raider in such a short time. I'm not trying to start an arguement about this, but I don't actually remember them saying that he had only a short time to learn how to use the raider. Are you guys just assuming that he had to learn it all quickly based on the rushed nature of his escape? Is there a reason he couldn't have actually had a few hours to do it? I mean, if they let him escape, then he could have been in the basestar hangar for hours trying to work the controls while they watched (and snickered) from behind the glass. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 23:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:I agree that a lot of people have seemed predisposed to cry foul lately--I can understand how the scientific goofs in "A Measure of Salvation" could've set people on edge--but I do think it's possible that if the Cylons are operating under a religious motivation, that their plan does go beyond a simple "kill all humans" approach. They may see the need to exact specific steps of revenge/torture against humanity, perhaps a particular punishment for each perceived offense. That's just one possibility, but it could well be they have the death of a thousand cuts in mind for the remnants of humanity. I think Drumstick's probably on to something here. Or you know, if they wanted Bulldog to escape, they could have trained a Raider (which wasn't injured like Starbuck's) to understand and obey his commands or even set it up with an interface that a human could use. Until we see proof or disproof of all the different theories, I think it's too early to try to claim BsG has jumped the shark or anything similar. I also have to wonder if anybody here has writing experience with writing a full-length work. I am working on my first novel, and keeping total, perfect consistency is not easy and while I tend to get the big things right, I am still finding a lot of subtle things that need tweaking, and this despite my best efforts. [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:17, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Possible Discontinuity ==
According to the episode, Adama and friends served on the Valkyrie a year before the attacks. This implies that Adama was only commander of the Galactica for a year before the miniseries. Yet on the Kara Thrace article, it states that Thrace "resigned from flight school as a instructor and transferred as an operational pilot aboard battlestar Galactica under the command of William Adama, where she served for some '''two years prior to the Cylon attack''' on the Twelve Colonies." They can't both be right.

Also, from the Tyrol article: "He served aboard battlestars from the age of eighteen, including Columbia, Atlantia, and Pegasus (Resistance). He has served under William Adama on Galactica for five years (Litmus)." If he served under Adama for 5 years, why didn't he mention the Valkyrie when he was being intimidated by Tigh in Resistance? This could be simply because Tigh would have known that.--[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 22:16, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:No, your first impulse is correct - it's quite certainly an error.
:'''Gaeta:''' And... may I take this opportunity to say that it's been both a pleasure and an honour to serve under you [Adama], these past three years. ([[Miniseries]])
:'''Adama:''' We [Thrace and I] talked about a lot of things. We've been aboard this ship for over two years, we know each other very well. ([[Act of Contrition]])
:'''Adama:''' She [Valerii] was more than that to us. She was more than that to me. She was a vital, living person... aboard my ship for almost two years. She couldn’t have been just a machine. Could you love a machine? ([[The Farm]])
:Also, note that the timeline in Adama's dossier (which seems to be accurate based on other data points) puts his transfer to ''Galactica'' at six years prior to the miniseries.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:48, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::It is quite possible that this is not an error ''per se''. Adama and some of his command staff could easily have been assigned to the more modern Valkyrie from Galactica for the mission. It wouldn't make much sense to send "the bucket" on a stealth mission anyway. Notice Valkyrie seemed smaller and was probably more modernized, which would make it all the better for that type of mission. So Adama could easily have been in command of Galactica for several years prior, been offered command of Valkyrie as a reward, for career advancement or just for the mission... and have been pushed back to Galactica when the mission failed. Certainly the plan to decommission Galactica was in the works for some time, and they would not want one of their good commanders to retire with the ship... until after the mission where he failed. None of the characters would be expected to say "I served under Adama for some years, and some other guy for a couple of months, then Adama again." They would just say they served with him for X number of years. If we compare to the modern US Navy, this sort of thing is not all the uncommon.--[[User:Xealot|Xealot]] 10:22, 20 November 2006 (CST)
:::The dossier's progression from XO of ''Columbia'' to Commander of ''Valkyrie'' to Commander of ''Galactica'' seems to indicate that ''Valkyrie'' was his first battlestar command. Though I agree that the serve under "X years" would fly if they stayed under him. It's just the "this ship"'s that start biting them. (When they specify the ship instead of the command.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:53, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Cylon detector problems ==

There's some inconsistency with the "Cylon Detector" that Doc Cottle used to determine that Bulldog was a human. First of all, if you look at the screen caps, [http://galacticabbs.com/index.php?act=module&module=gallery&cmd=si&img=56612|like this one], you can see that the screen says "-RESULTS NEGATIVE-" If he was testing the DNA against their military records, it should say "-RESULTS POSITIVE-" If it's negative, the DNA doesn't match. That, or it's supposed to be a Cylon Detector, and it's saying that he's not a Cylon. It seems like it could be a simple goof between dialogue and props.

However, going along with the DNA reasoning... that doesn't necessarily prove anything, does it? If they tested Boomer's DNA against the DNA they have on record for her, I assume it's going to match, since they probably took Cylon DNA initially. Who's to say that the same thing didn't happen to Bulldog? In that case, his DNA would match, but he'd be a Cylon. Seems like a poor determiner of race, that's all. I don't think that he's necessarily a Cylon, just that this is another "oops."

--It might prove something...if the Colonials have DNA records going all the way back to a person's birth. If they're matching against that kind of original record (heck, maybe they even have the parents' records, too), then that may well constitute proof. [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:06, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Moved content ==

Folks, stuff like this needs to be removed (or reworded) on sight. Right now, this document reads a bit like it's arguing with itself. Before adding content that seems to contradict itself, please discuss it on the talk page -- that's what this feature is for.

Below, here's what I've removed thus far from the article that contradicts itself. Stuff like this, ''again'', must be hashed out on talk pages before entering the main article space. Thank you. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:52, 20 November 2006 (CST)

=== Removed content ===

*[[Dualla]] apparently served on the Valkyrie; she can be seen in the background standing behind Adama and Tigh in the flashback scenes.
**That person in the scene is most likley not Dualla; it's not easy to see because the flashback-scenes in the CIC have (deliberatly) not the best quality.

Talk:Hero/Archive2

2006-11-20T19:06:34Z

Rose Immortal: /* Cylon detector problems */

== Can We compare Adama to President George....Washington? :) ==
I was reading the quote from Eick, "...Adama begins to believe that on some level he might have been responsible for provoking the Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies." and for some reason I felt that thie reminded me of Gorge Washington long before we was president or even commander-in-chief when, before the 7-Years-War, Washington was involved in a skirmish with the French over Fort Necessity, aka Pittsburgh (yes, we fought a battle for that city) that led to Washington signing a treaty stating, unbeknownst to him because he couldn't speak French and his interpreter sucked, that he committed attrocities against France in the name of the British Empire. This, according to many historians, led to the 7 Years War, known in America as the French and Indian War, that would decimate Northern Germany. I'm sure Washington at some level had to be aware of this error on his part and led him to remorse I imagine. Anyways, the story is different but I was wondering how many parallels there will be, if there will be, in this episode to Washington's conundrum. I wanted to ask a question on the article page but couldn't concise it enough for wiki standards. I may ask on the scifi bboard but input on this would be appreciated before I do. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 19:42, 3 August 2006 (PST)
:That's an interesting analogy, showing a fine attention to historical detail. I think the parallel has minor flaws, though, since Washington's conduct in that matter isn't generally considered morally wrong so much as foolish. [[Wikipedia:Gavrilo Princip|Gavrilo Princip]] might be worth considering as a parallel; he was the immediate but not ultimate cause of a devastating war, and he precipitated the conflict by attacking his fellow countryman, thinking it justified in contrast to the general consensus. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 02:28, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

:: It's unlikely that Adama's actions are quite the transgression that he believes it to be; after all, the [[cylon agent|Cylons had been violating the armistice line]] for about a half a year prior to Adama's, anyway.[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 02:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)

::: I was wondering about the timeline as well. I think Adama says somthing like, the mission was a year before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|attack]], but the cylons had been planning the attack for two years. However, I think there is an error in the timeline. Adama also says he served with Boomer for two years, and I think he implied that it was on Galactica. Gaeta also says that he served with Adama for three years. It is possible that Gaeta was on the Valkyrie for a year, but I think the mission happened about two years before the attack, not just one. I will rewatch the episode, but do you have any ideas? [[User:Jrmurph|Jrmurph]] 12:21, 18 November 2006 (EST)
:::: I think there is an inconsistency in the story. It is not unexplainable, ie Gaeta and Boomer served with Adama on the Valkyrie, but it did seem like nobody other than Adama or Tigh recognized Bulldog so the timeline is a little esquew. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:01, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Another Battlestar? ==
There is a spoiler image showing Adm Adama and Col Tigh in the CIC of the Battlestar Valkerie. I zoomed in on Adama and saw he had his Admiral's pins on. Might this be a sign that they soon will find yet another Battlestar? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:24, 15 November 2006 (CST)
: It's a flashback scene. It may be more of a costuming error. Note that Tigh still has his eye in that promo shot. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 01:39, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:: Right. Two eyed Tigh. Darn. I was hoping they'd find another Battlestar cause I do miss the Pegasus. It was bigger, much cooler and the doors made this cool "beep" when they opened. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:50, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:::You can visit [[Valkyrie]] as well. It's a spoiler until Friday but you can adjust it with some new data later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:36, 15 November 2006 (CST)
::::It's true, I saw the Admiral pips as well, the flashback should have been Commander pips; as the Stealth ship incident occurred three years ago. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 22:56, 17 November 2006 (CST)
: The Valkerie looked to be a Mercury class Battlestar. This would make sense because the galactica class was an older ship and has been all but replaced with the newer bigger and more efficent Mercury class.--[[User:Mike|Mike]] 09:30, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It's definately not a Mercury, the only part really similar is the engine block. If anything, it looked most like a reimagining of the original series battlestar, down to the rectangular opening in the flightpod and the angular head. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::Inside it looks like a Mercury yes. That's a sign of its age. But outside, it's far smaller than a full-sized battlestar. Look at the gun battery on the top. There's only one and almost covers the width of the ship there. See the Valkyrie page for more details (where this discussion should take place), but I think it's basically a smaller battlestar meant for support duties. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:52, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:: Not disagreeing with your main point, but its quite possible that there were far more Battlestar classes than just the "Cylon War Type" and the Mecurcy class, given that the colonies built up a fleet of arround 120 Battlestars over about 50 years, particularly as the Viper apparently went through 5 different itterations over this time, although we are likely never going to see the intervening versions of either type --[[User:Useless|Useless]] 09:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Barry Kennedy as Admiral Corman ==

Hey all, I was just checking on Barry Kennedy's link, and it links to an IMDB page other than his profile page detailing his filmography, and etc. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 23:52, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:That's because some people keep forgeting the "nm" when entering imdb numbers and in that case the link default to title instead of actor --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:53, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The Stealth-Star==
hey i just noticed this but the name of the ship was the stealth star so someone(not me)should create it a page. Best Snorkel378
:Already done [[Stealth Star]]. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:41, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The scene with Baltar, Six and Three in bed==
it says on there that 3 is having a sexual realationship with baltar and six?
Cylons arent lesbos i think they were having a 3some {{unsigned|Snorkel378}}
:You are assuming that the Six we see is Caprica-Six and not Baltar's internal Six. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 20:49, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It would be an odd choice cinematically to have Three wake up from a dream and show us something from inside Baltar's head. {{unsigned|Wldkt1}}
:::Please remembe rto sign your posts on talk pages guys <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:05, 19 November 2006 (CST)
The fact that Baltar and Six are in a 'clutch' position makes it unlikely that it's his internal Six. Three would have noticed Baltar trying to hug thin air in his sleep. Baltar is also in the center of the bed, rather than on one side. In addition, Caprica seems to be aware of (and approves) Three's new interest in Baltar. Regarding the possibility of a relationship between Three and Six: that is only speculation, but just because we haven't seen a lesbian relationship between cylons doesn't mean one isn't possible.[[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 22:18, 19 November 2006 (CST)

==The Black Ops Mission==
Does anyone think that the entire mission was poorly concieved? First, the Colonials jump a Battlestar to very close range of the armistice line, which one would expect to attract attention in and of itself. Second, we see the ''Valkyrie'' track the S-Star after launch and over the line. This either means the Valkyrie tracked it directly on DRADIS, which indicates it's not much of a stealth ship and that the Cylons should be able to detect it as well, or the S-Star has some sort of transponder reporting its position, which is also something the Cylons should detect. Finally, as referenced in the main article, the S-Star maintains radio contact with the ''Valkyrie'' throughout the whole mission, again something the Cylons should be able to detect. Would the writers have really overlooked all this, or are we meant to conclude that the Admriality meant for the mission to have been discovered by the Cylons? --[[User:Cleophus|Cleophus]] 22:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:-The mission is quite similar to the United States' U2 overflights during the late 1950's and 60's. Certain similarities between the depicted incident and the [[:wikipedia:U-2 Crisis of 1960|incident involving Francis Gary Powers]] can be read. It also conjures up several dozen observation flights by aircraft such as specially outfitted C-130's flying perilously close to a boundary line — even going so far as to slip a wingtip across it to "call a bluff". Also, there's the incident involving the Chinese Gai-8 fighter and the US P-3 Orion.
:In the case of our Colonials here, the stealth craft is more than likely equipped with an "odd frequency" (either very low or very high), encrypted transponder that transmits on a specific wavelength, only for IFF purposes. If I recall correctly, F-117 Nighthawks can still use their radios when on ops (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I suspect that this mission was proposed in order to get a glimpse into ''any'' Cylon activity. The stealth craft would be dangled out as a tiny bit of bait – just enough to get a response. Its stealth characteristics would increase its ability to dash back across the Armistice Line untracked and unaffected, and then ''Valkyrie'' would be able to observe and record the arriving Cylons. If questions were raised ("What are you doing here?" ... "Good question, what are ''you'' doing here?" ... "We detected you over the Armistice Line." ... "Who, us? Noooo... We've been on our side this whole time, just trolling about, watching over our miners over there on that moon there. So why are you here again? You don't mind if we take some photos of you while you're here, do you?"), the Colonials would feign ignorance and innocence, but they'd at least have a response... something that the Cylons haven't even projected in thirty-plus years. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

==Folks in White Robes==
Aren't there five white-robed figures in Number Three's vision? It's pretty speculative, but maybe these are meant to represent the five missing Cylon models (maybe they've undergone some kind of transcendence, and are "with God now" or something). Maybe the article should note this (after all, the white-robes show up for the first time just a couple episodes after we first learn that there's definitely something different or mysterious about the five missing models), though I don't know the proper section for it. {{unsigned|Steve}}

:- I noticed that too, but was going to "acquire" the episode and re-watch that part, or watch it again on Monday to see... I _think_ there are five humanoid figures in white robes, kneeling or seated in that semi-circle when Three walks amongst them. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:Three's in the opera house on Kobol where Baltar's internal Six shows him Hera's cradle; I believe those are the same white drapes that can be seen on the opera house stage in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 11:38, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Reference to Raising Arizona? ==

I'm new here, so I didn't want to jump right into the thick of things by adding this to the main page before running it by other people...when Adama and Novacek are sitting down for the first time, Adama asks him something like "How did you escape, Bulldog?". Novacek rambles for a little bit (again, I don't remember exact words) but wraps up with "I felt the facility no longer had anything to offer me...". If I'm not mistaken, this is a reference to Raising Arizona--John Goodman's character says just about the exact same thing after he breaks out of prison. I can't seem to find the line on IMDB or Wikiquote, though... {{unsigned|MikeDanger}}
:Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:As far as I remember "Raising Arizona", the dialogue goes like this: 
:''- You busted outta jail?'' 
:''- No, ma'am. We released ourselves on our own recognizance.'' 
:''- What Evelle is tryin' to say is we felt the institution no longer had anything to offer us.'' -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 08:28, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Insight into Cylon plan ==
If the Cylons know where the Colonials are, or at least know well enough to send Bulldog at them, it's common sense to ask, why don't they just attack? Well, maybe their goal isn't to destroy Galactica et al outright but something more complex. One thing that does seem consistent with their plan is their desire to kill Adama, perhaps because they want to send the fleet into disarray without him at the top. Examples: Leoben telling Roslin that Adama's a Cylon in Flesh and Blood, Boomer shooting Adama repeatedly in Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. II. There may be more examples that I can't think of right now.

People have been crying out "plot hole!" with reckless abandon in light of Bulldog's ability to pinpoint Galactica's position, but if the Cylon plan really is as simple as ''kill all humans,'' as these detractors might claim, then much of the show falls apart. The reality is, we don't really know the Cylon plan, and at this point, there's really no reason to jump to the conclusion that the writers are just too lazy to think of one. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 18:22, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:The Cylons might know full well where the Colonials are but if they jumped in a couple of Basestars then the fleet would zip out of there pretty sharpish and might go somewhere where the Cylons dont know and they will have to find them all over again. IMO, their plan is a long game. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 19:17, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:IMHO, "Hero" is the weakest episode of the series yet. There's just too many logic errors for me to dismiss as part of the "suspension of disbelief" process. For instance, how does Bulldog have the time to learn how to pilot a Cylon raider, when Starbuck took hours to figure out how to operate the thing? Also, how would Bulldog be able to operate the FTL drive -- Kobol's Last Gleaming pretty much made it clear that the FTL drive needed an actual computer, given that the brain had to be ripped out in order for it to be piloted manually. But that's another not so fine mess.
: As for the Cylon plans, well, they're clearly compliated and seem to be changing since the attack. Whether or not this is by design has yet to be detrmined, though I sincerely doubt that the writer's have this thing all planned out a la ''Babylon 5''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:30, 19 November 2006 (CST)

::Yeah, I know what you're saying. I also doubt it's all planned out B5-style (hasn't Ron basically said something to that effect anyway, like how much they enjoy making it up as they go along?), but that doesn't mean it necessarily can't all add up in the end, and we should assume that they ''do'' know what they are doing until they are proven wrong.

::Also, a lot of people have been talking about how unrealistic it is for Bulldog to have learned how to operate the raider in such a short time. I'm not trying to start an arguement about this, but I don't actually remember them saying that he had only a short time to learn how to use the raider. Are you guys just assuming that he had to learn it all quickly based on the rushed nature of his escape? Is there a reason he couldn't have actually had a few hours to do it? I mean, if they let him escape, then he could have been in the basestar hangar for hours trying to work the controls while they watched (and snickered) from behind the glass. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 23:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Possible Discontinuity ==
According to the episode, Adama and friends served on the Valkyrie a year before the attacks. This implies that Adama was only commander of the Galactica for a year before the miniseries. Yet on the Kara Thrace article, it states that Thrace "resigned from flight school as a instructor and transferred as an operational pilot aboard battlestar Galactica under the command of William Adama, where she served for some '''two years prior to the Cylon attack''' on the Twelve Colonies." They can't both be right.

Also, from the Tyrol article: "He served aboard battlestars from the age of eighteen, including Columbia, Atlantia, and Pegasus (Resistance). He has served under William Adama on Galactica for five years (Litmus)." If he served under Adama for 5 years, why didn't he mention the Valkyrie when he was being intimidated by Tigh in Resistance? This could be simply because Tigh would have known that.--[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 22:16, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:No, your first impulse is correct - it's quite certainly an error.
:'''Gaeta:''' And... may I take this opportunity to say that it's been both a pleasure and an honour to serve under you [Adama], these past three years. ([[Miniseries]])
:'''Adama:''' We [Thrace and I] talked about a lot of things. We've been aboard this ship for over two years, we know each other very well. ([[Act of Contrition]])
:'''Adama:''' She [Valerii] was more than that to us. She was more than that to me. She was a vital, living person... aboard my ship for almost two years. She couldn’t have been just a machine. Could you love a machine? ([[The Farm]])
:Also, note that the timeline in Adama's dossier (which seems to be accurate based on other data points) puts his transfer to ''Galactica'' at six years prior to the miniseries.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:48, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::It is quite possible that this is not an error ''per se''. Adama and some of his command staff could easily have been assigned to the more modern Valkyrie from Galactica for the mission. It wouldn't make much sense to send "the bucket" on a stealth mission anyway. Notice Valkyrie seemed smaller and was probably more modernized, which would make it all the better for that type of mission. So Adama could easily have been in command of Galactica for several years prior, been offered command of Valkyrie as a reward, for career advancement or just for the mission... and have been pushed back to Galactica when the mission failed. Certainly the plan to decommission Galactica was in the works for some time, and they would not want one of their good commanders to retire with the ship... until after the mission where he failed. None of the characters would be expected to say "I served under Adama for some years, and some other guy for a couple of months, then Adama again." They would just say they served with him for X number of years. If we compare to the modern US Navy, this sort of thing is not all the uncommon.--[[User:Xealot|Xealot]] 10:22, 20 November 2006 (CST)
:::The dossier's progression from XO of ''Columbia'' to Commander of ''Valkyrie'' to Commander of ''Galactica'' seems to indicate that ''Valkyrie'' was his first battlestar command. Though I agree that the serve under "X years" would fly if they stayed under him. It's just the "this ship"'s that start biting them. (When they specify the ship instead of the command.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:53, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Cylon detector problems ==

There's some inconsistency with the "Cylon Detector" that Doc Cottle used to determine that Bulldog was a human. First of all, if you look at the screen caps, [http://galacticabbs.com/index.php?act=module&module=gallery&cmd=si&img=56612|like this one], you can see that the screen says "-RESULTS NEGATIVE-" If he was testing the DNA against their military records, it should say "-RESULTS POSITIVE-" If it's negative, the DNA doesn't match. That, or it's supposed to be a Cylon Detector, and it's saying that he's not a Cylon. It seems like it could be a simple goof between dialogue and props.

However, going along with the DNA reasoning... that doesn't necessarily prove anything, does it? If they tested Boomer's DNA against the DNA they have on record for her, I assume it's going to match, since they probably took Cylon DNA initially. Who's to say that the same thing didn't happen to Bulldog? In that case, his DNA would match, but he'd be a Cylon. Seems like a poor determiner of race, that's all. I don't think that he's necessarily a Cylon, just that this is another "oops."

--It might prove something...if the Colonials have DNA records going all the way back to a person's birth. If they're matching against that kind of original record (heck, maybe they even have the parents' records, too), then that may well constitute proof. [[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]] 13:06, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Moved content ==

Folks, stuff like this needs to be removed (or reworded) on sight. Right now, this document reads a bit like it's arguing with itself. Before adding content that seems to contradict itself, please discuss it on the talk page -- that's what this feature is for.

Below, here's what I've removed thus far from the article that contradicts itself. Stuff like this, ''again'', must be hashed out on talk pages before entering the main article space. Thank you. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:52, 20 November 2006 (CST)

=== Removed content ===

*[[Dualla]] apparently served on the Valkyrie; she can be seen in the background standing behind Adama and Tigh in the flashback scenes.
**That person in the scene is most likley not Dualla; it's not easy to see because the flashback-scenes in the CIC have (deliberatly) not the best quality.

Talk:Hero/Archive2

2006-11-20T18:57:01Z

Rose Immortal: /* Cylon detector problems */

== Can We compare Adama to President George....Washington? :) ==
I was reading the quote from Eick, "...Adama begins to believe that on some level he might have been responsible for provoking the Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies." and for some reason I felt that thie reminded me of Gorge Washington long before we was president or even commander-in-chief when, before the 7-Years-War, Washington was involved in a skirmish with the French over Fort Necessity, aka Pittsburgh (yes, we fought a battle for that city) that led to Washington signing a treaty stating, unbeknownst to him because he couldn't speak French and his interpreter sucked, that he committed attrocities against France in the name of the British Empire. This, according to many historians, led to the 7 Years War, known in America as the French and Indian War, that would decimate Northern Germany. I'm sure Washington at some level had to be aware of this error on his part and led him to remorse I imagine. Anyways, the story is different but I was wondering how many parallels there will be, if there will be, in this episode to Washington's conundrum. I wanted to ask a question on the article page but couldn't concise it enough for wiki standards. I may ask on the scifi bboard but input on this would be appreciated before I do. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 19:42, 3 August 2006 (PST)
:That's an interesting analogy, showing a fine attention to historical detail. I think the parallel has minor flaws, though, since Washington's conduct in that matter isn't generally considered morally wrong so much as foolish. [[Wikipedia:Gavrilo Princip|Gavrilo Princip]] might be worth considering as a parallel; he was the immediate but not ultimate cause of a devastating war, and he precipitated the conflict by attacking his fellow countryman, thinking it justified in contrast to the general consensus. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 02:28, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

:: It's unlikely that Adama's actions are quite the transgression that he believes it to be; after all, the [[cylon agent|Cylons had been violating the armistice line]] for about a half a year prior to Adama's, anyway.[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 02:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)

::: I was wondering about the timeline as well. I think Adama says somthing like, the mission was a year before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|attack]], but the cylons had been planning the attack for two years. However, I think there is an error in the timeline. Adama also says he served with Boomer for two years, and I think he implied that it was on Galactica. Gaeta also says that he served with Adama for three years. It is possible that Gaeta was on the Valkyrie for a year, but I think the mission happened about two years before the attack, not just one. I will rewatch the episode, but do you have any ideas? [[User:Jrmurph|Jrmurph]] 12:21, 18 November 2006 (EST)
:::: I think there is an inconsistency in the story. It is not unexplainable, ie Gaeta and Boomer served with Adama on the Valkyrie, but it did seem like nobody other than Adama or Tigh recognized Bulldog so the timeline is a little esquew. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:01, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Another Battlestar? ==
There is a spoiler image showing Adm Adama and Col Tigh in the CIC of the Battlestar Valkerie. I zoomed in on Adama and saw he had his Admiral's pins on. Might this be a sign that they soon will find yet another Battlestar? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:24, 15 November 2006 (CST)
: It's a flashback scene. It may be more of a costuming error. Note that Tigh still has his eye in that promo shot. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 01:39, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:: Right. Two eyed Tigh. Darn. I was hoping they'd find another Battlestar cause I do miss the Pegasus. It was bigger, much cooler and the doors made this cool "beep" when they opened. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:50, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:::You can visit [[Valkyrie]] as well. It's a spoiler until Friday but you can adjust it with some new data later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:36, 15 November 2006 (CST)
::::It's true, I saw the Admiral pips as well, the flashback should have been Commander pips; as the Stealth ship incident occurred three years ago. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 22:56, 17 November 2006 (CST)
: The Valkerie looked to be a Mercury class Battlestar. This would make sense because the galactica class was an older ship and has been all but replaced with the newer bigger and more efficent Mercury class.--[[User:Mike|Mike]] 09:30, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It's definately not a Mercury, the only part really similar is the engine block. If anything, it looked most like a reimagining of the original series battlestar, down to the rectangular opening in the flightpod and the angular head. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::Inside it looks like a Mercury yes. That's a sign of its age. But outside, it's far smaller than a full-sized battlestar. Look at the gun battery on the top. There's only one and almost covers the width of the ship there. See the Valkyrie page for more details (where this discussion should take place), but I think it's basically a smaller battlestar meant for support duties. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:52, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:: Not disagreeing with your main point, but its quite possible that there were far more Battlestar classes than just the "Cylon War Type" and the Mecurcy class, given that the colonies built up a fleet of arround 120 Battlestars over about 50 years, particularly as the Viper apparently went through 5 different itterations over this time, although we are likely never going to see the intervening versions of either type --[[User:Useless|Useless]] 09:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Barry Kennedy as Admiral Corman ==

Hey all, I was just checking on Barry Kennedy's link, and it links to an IMDB page other than his profile page detailing his filmography, and etc. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 23:52, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:That's because some people keep forgeting the "nm" when entering imdb numbers and in that case the link default to title instead of actor --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:53, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The Stealth-Star==
hey i just noticed this but the name of the ship was the stealth star so someone(not me)should create it a page. Best Snorkel378
:Already done [[Stealth Star]]. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:41, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The scene with Baltar, Six and Three in bed==
it says on there that 3 is having a sexual realationship with baltar and six?
Cylons arent lesbos i think they were having a 3some {{unsigned|Snorkel378}}
:You are assuming that the Six we see is Caprica-Six and not Baltar's internal Six. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 20:49, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It would be an odd choice cinematically to have Three wake up from a dream and show us something from inside Baltar's head. {{unsigned|Wldkt1}}
:::Please remembe rto sign your posts on talk pages guys <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:05, 19 November 2006 (CST)
The fact that Baltar and Six are in a 'clutch' position makes it unlikely that it's his internal Six. Three would have noticed Baltar trying to hug thin air in his sleep. Baltar is also in the center of the bed, rather than on one side. In addition, Caprica seems to be aware of (and approves) Three's new interest in Baltar. Regarding the possibility of a relationship between Three and Six: that is only speculation, but just because we haven't seen a lesbian relationship between cylons doesn't mean one isn't possible.[[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 22:18, 19 November 2006 (CST)

==The Black Ops Mission==
Does anyone think that the entire mission was poorly concieved? First, the Colonials jump a Battlestar to very close range of the armistice line, which one would expect to attract attention in and of itself. Second, we see the ''Valkyrie'' track the S-Star after launch and over the line. This either means the Valkyrie tracked it directly on DRADIS, which indicates it's not much of a stealth ship and that the Cylons should be able to detect it as well, or the S-Star has some sort of transponder reporting its position, which is also something the Cylons should detect. Finally, as referenced in the main article, the S-Star maintains radio contact with the ''Valkyrie'' throughout the whole mission, again something the Cylons should be able to detect. Would the writers have really overlooked all this, or are we meant to conclude that the Admriality meant for the mission to have been discovered by the Cylons? --[[User:Cleophus|Cleophus]] 22:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:-The mission is quite similar to the United States' U2 overflights during the late 1950's and 60's. Certain similarities between the depicted incident and the [[:wikipedia:U-2 Crisis of 1960|incident involving Francis Gary Powers]] can be read. It also conjures up several dozen observation flights by aircraft such as specially outfitted C-130's flying perilously close to a boundary line — even going so far as to slip a wingtip across it to "call a bluff". Also, there's the incident involving the Chinese Gai-8 fighter and the US P-3 Orion.
:In the case of our Colonials here, the stealth craft is more than likely equipped with an "odd frequency" (either very low or very high), encrypted transponder that transmits on a specific wavelength, only for IFF purposes. If I recall correctly, F-117 Nighthawks can still use their radios when on ops (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I suspect that this mission was proposed in order to get a glimpse into ''any'' Cylon activity. The stealth craft would be dangled out as a tiny bit of bait – just enough to get a response. Its stealth characteristics would increase its ability to dash back across the Armistice Line untracked and unaffected, and then ''Valkyrie'' would be able to observe and record the arriving Cylons. If questions were raised ("What are you doing here?" ... "Good question, what are ''you'' doing here?" ... "We detected you over the Armistice Line." ... "Who, us? Noooo... We've been on our side this whole time, just trolling about, watching over our miners over there on that moon there. So why are you here again? You don't mind if we take some photos of you while you're here, do you?"), the Colonials would feign ignorance and innocence, but they'd at least have a response... something that the Cylons haven't even projected in thirty-plus years. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

==Folks in White Robes==
Aren't there five white-robed figures in Number Three's vision? It's pretty speculative, but maybe these are meant to represent the five missing Cylon models (maybe they've undergone some kind of transcendence, and are "with God now" or something). Maybe the article should note this (after all, the white-robes show up for the first time just a couple episodes after we first learn that there's definitely something different or mysterious about the five missing models), though I don't know the proper section for it. {{unsigned|Steve}}

:- I noticed that too, but was going to "acquire" the episode and re-watch that part, or watch it again on Monday to see... I _think_ there are five humanoid figures in white robes, kneeling or seated in that semi-circle when Three walks amongst them. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:Three's in the opera house on Kobol where Baltar's internal Six shows him Hera's cradle; I believe those are the same white drapes that can be seen on the opera house stage in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 11:38, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Reference to Raising Arizona? ==

I'm new here, so I didn't want to jump right into the thick of things by adding this to the main page before running it by other people...when Adama and Novacek are sitting down for the first time, Adama asks him something like "How did you escape, Bulldog?". Novacek rambles for a little bit (again, I don't remember exact words) but wraps up with "I felt the facility no longer had anything to offer me...". If I'm not mistaken, this is a reference to Raising Arizona--John Goodman's character says just about the exact same thing after he breaks out of prison. I can't seem to find the line on IMDB or Wikiquote, though... {{unsigned|MikeDanger}}
:Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:As far as I remember "Raising Arizona", the dialogue goes like this: 
:''- You busted outta jail?'' 
:''- No, ma'am. We released ourselves on our own recognizance.'' 
:''- What Evelle is tryin' to say is we felt the institution no longer had anything to offer us.'' -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 08:28, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Insight into Cylon plan ==
If the Cylons know where the Colonials are, or at least know well enough to send Bulldog at them, it's common sense to ask, why don't they just attack? Well, maybe their goal isn't to destroy Galactica et al outright but something more complex. One thing that does seem consistent with their plan is their desire to kill Adama, perhaps because they want to send the fleet into disarray without him at the top. Examples: Leoben telling Roslin that Adama's a Cylon in Flesh and Blood, Boomer shooting Adama repeatedly in Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. II. There may be more examples that I can't think of right now.

People have been crying out "plot hole!" with reckless abandon in light of Bulldog's ability to pinpoint Galactica's position, but if the Cylon plan really is as simple as ''kill all humans,'' as these detractors might claim, then much of the show falls apart. The reality is, we don't really know the Cylon plan, and at this point, there's really no reason to jump to the conclusion that the writers are just too lazy to think of one. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 18:22, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:The Cylons might know full well where the Colonials are but if they jumped in a couple of Basestars then the fleet would zip out of there pretty sharpish and might go somewhere where the Cylons dont know and they will have to find them all over again. IMO, their plan is a long game. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 19:17, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:IMHO, "Hero" is the weakest episode of the series yet. There's just too many logic errors for me to dismiss as part of the "suspension of disbelief" process. For instance, how does Bulldog have the time to learn how to pilot a Cylon raider, when Starbuck took hours to figure out how to operate the thing? Also, how would Bulldog be able to operate the FTL drive -- Kobol's Last Gleaming pretty much made it clear that the FTL drive needed an actual computer, given that the brain had to be ripped out in order for it to be piloted manually. But that's another not so fine mess.
: As for the Cylon plans, well, they're clearly compliated and seem to be changing since the attack. Whether or not this is by design has yet to be detrmined, though I sincerely doubt that the writer's have this thing all planned out a la ''Babylon 5''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:30, 19 November 2006 (CST)

::Yeah, I know what you're saying. I also doubt it's all planned out B5-style (hasn't Ron basically said something to that effect anyway, like how much they enjoy making it up as they go along?), but that doesn't mean it necessarily can't all add up in the end, and we should assume that they ''do'' know what they are doing until they are proven wrong.

::Also, a lot of people have been talking about how unrealistic it is for Bulldog to have learned how to operate the raider in such a short time. I'm not trying to start an arguement about this, but I don't actually remember them saying that he had only a short time to learn how to use the raider. Are you guys just assuming that he had to learn it all quickly based on the rushed nature of his escape? Is there a reason he couldn't have actually had a few hours to do it? I mean, if they let him escape, then he could have been in the basestar hangar for hours trying to work the controls while they watched (and snickered) from behind the glass. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 23:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Possible Discontinuity ==
According to the episode, Adama and friends served on the Valkyrie a year before the attacks. This implies that Adama was only commander of the Galactica for a year before the miniseries. Yet on the Kara Thrace article, it states that Thrace "resigned from flight school as a instructor and transferred as an operational pilot aboard battlestar Galactica under the command of William Adama, where she served for some '''two years prior to the Cylon attack''' on the Twelve Colonies." They can't both be right.

Also, from the Tyrol article: "He served aboard battlestars from the age of eighteen, including Columbia, Atlantia, and Pegasus (Resistance). He has served under William Adama on Galactica for five years (Litmus)." If he served under Adama for 5 years, why didn't he mention the Valkyrie when he was being intimidated by Tigh in Resistance? This could be simply because Tigh would have known that.--[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 22:16, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:No, your first impulse is correct - it's quite certainly an error.
:'''Gaeta:''' And... may I take this opportunity to say that it's been both a pleasure and an honour to serve under you [Adama], these past three years. ([[Miniseries]])
:'''Adama:''' We [Thrace and I] talked about a lot of things. We've been aboard this ship for over two years, we know each other very well. ([[Act of Contrition]])
:'''Adama:''' She [Valerii] was more than that to us. She was more than that to me. She was a vital, living person... aboard my ship for almost two years. She couldn’t have been just a machine. Could you love a machine? ([[The Farm]])
:Also, note that the timeline in Adama's dossier (which seems to be accurate based on other data points) puts his transfer to ''Galactica'' at six years prior to the miniseries.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:48, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::It is quite possible that this is not an error ''per se''. Adama and some of his command staff could easily have been assigned to the more modern Valkyrie from Galactica for the mission. It wouldn't make much sense to send "the bucket" on a stealth mission anyway. Notice Valkyrie seemed smaller and was probably more modernized, which would make it all the better for that type of mission. So Adama could easily have been in command of Galactica for several years prior, been offered command of Valkyrie as a reward, for career advancement or just for the mission... and have been pushed back to Galactica when the mission failed. Certainly the plan to decommission Galactica was in the works for some time, and they would not want one of their good commanders to retire with the ship... until after the mission where he failed. None of the characters would be expected to say "I served under Adama for some years, and some other guy for a couple of months, then Adama again." They would just say they served with him for X number of years. If we compare to the modern US Navy, this sort of thing is not all the uncommon.--[[User:Xealot|Xealot]] 10:22, 20 November 2006 (CST)
:::The dossier's progression from XO of ''Columbia'' to Commander of ''Valkyrie'' to Commander of ''Galactica'' seems to indicate that ''Valkyrie'' was his first battlestar command. Though I agree that the serve under "X years" would fly if they stayed under him. It's just the "this ship"'s that start biting them. (When they specify the ship instead of the command.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:53, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Cylon detector problems ==

There's some inconsistency with the "Cylon Detector" that Doc Cottle used to determine that Bulldog was a human. First of all, if you look at the screen caps, [http://galacticabbs.com/index.php?act=module&module=gallery&cmd=si&img=56612|like this one], you can see that the screen says "-RESULTS NEGATIVE-" If he was testing the DNA against their military records, it should say "-RESULTS POSITIVE-" If it's negative, the DNA doesn't match. That, or it's supposed to be a Cylon Detector, and it's saying that he's not a Cylon. It seems like it could be a simple goof between dialogue and props.

However, going along with the DNA reasoning... that doesn't necessarily prove anything, does it? If they tested Boomer's DNA against the DNA they have on record for her, I assume it's going to match, since they probably took Cylon DNA initially. Who's to say that the same thing didn't happen to Bulldog? In that case, his DNA would match, but he'd be a Cylon. Seems like a poor determiner of race, that's all. I don't think that he's necessarily a Cylon, just that this is another "oops."

--It might prove something...if the Colonials have DNA records going all the way back to a person's birth. If they're matching against that kind of original record (heck, maybe they even have the parents' records, too), then that may well constitute proof. --[[user:Rose Immortal]Rose Immortal]

== Moved content ==

Folks, stuff like this needs to be removed (or reworded) on sight. Right now, this document reads a bit like it's arguing with itself. Before adding content that seems to contradict itself, please discuss it on the talk page -- that's what this feature is for.

Below, here's what I've removed thus far from the article that contradicts itself. Stuff like this, ''again'', must be hashed out on talk pages before entering the main article space. Thank you. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:52, 20 November 2006 (CST)

=== Removed content ===

*[[Dualla]] apparently served on the Valkyrie; she can be seen in the background standing behind Adama and Tigh in the flashback scenes.
**That person in the scene is most likley not Dualla; it's not easy to see because the flashback-scenes in the CIC have (deliberatly) not the best quality.

Talk:A Measure of Salvation/Archive 1

2006-11-14T18:27:05Z

Rose Immortal: /* Baltar's Torture */

==Picture?==
Is that picture from A Measure of Salvation? I don't remember Three and Six projecting themselves into a forest. The outfits they are wearing look like what they wore while torturing Baltar, so maybe it's from a deleted scene. Unless I've forgotten the scene for some reason, shouldn't we get a picture that actually came from the episode? -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Some Poor Writing ==

Attention to detail is what has set BSG apart from so many other science-fiction shows - including Mr. Moore's Star Trek franchises. So I was very disappointed last night to see the sloppy errors piling up deep. I'd have to see the epsiode again to list them all, but mainly them problems concerned the virus.

The scene where potentially infected Galactica crew are "quarantined", together with Sharon, in a room with cold-storage plastic flaps was ridiculous.

It's preposterous to think that a cylon would casually betray his race for the anti-viral drug. He has no assurance that he won't be double-crossed, and he certainly - even after torture - wouldn't spell out the danger the virus poses to the cylon fleet. The audience isn't stupid and neither should the Galctica crew be. Seeing Lee with a dim little lightbulb over his head was just insulting to us all.

Past episodes have cleary shown that cylon ressurection occurs over significant distances, (greater than FTL jumps), and that calls into question the fundemental logistics of Adama's infection plan.

There would be no reason to jump Galactica itself, just sending one raptor with a cylon transponder and one infected cylon would have done the trick. (Nevermind the ease with which two cylon raiders almost instantly materialize into a whole cylon fleet with a resurrectionship conveniently in tow.)

The analysis on the episode summary page provides an excellent plot device allowing the raid to "succeed" thus justifying the major build-up of the two part story. In fact, it would have made a superb three part arc.

Hypothetical episode 3: Spend some realistic period of time finding a reasonably sized cylon fleet, infect them, virus begins spreading throughout area covered by the "local" resurrection ship. Cylons scramble to head off disease, Baltar gains points by developing Hera vaccine, cylons survive but with major "body-blow" giving Galactica and fleet some breathing room as they prepare to investigate the new lead to Earth.

Please don't get me wrong, I love this show, but sci-fi writing has always been done on the cheap and it make my eyes roll as I struggle to care about characters forced through non-sensical plot contortions. Please, Mr. Moore, DON'T LET BSG SINK TO THE SAME SAD FATE! I'm trusting that this was just a hiccup not a trend.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 13:08, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:In defense of the writers, I think you are wrong on two points:
:*Jumping Galactica makes sense. In [[Scar]] Cylon Raiders are engaging in skirmishes despite the absence of a resurrection ship. A Raptor is not a big enough threat to guarantee the presence of a resurrection ship. If one isn't in range by accident the Cylons would probably engage the Raptor without it and take a minor risk of permanently loosing a few raiders. And after [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]] the Cylons could be exspected to take a closer look to any unexpected Raptors with a Cylon transponder showing up. If they destroy it without a resurrection ship in range, the plans failed. Also Racetrack stated last episode that there is a shortage of Raptors in the fleet, noone is going to be eager to sacrifice one. Jumping Galactica ensures the Cylon require lots of forces, expect lot's of casualties and have a resurrection ship nearby, though I could have done without seeing it arrive on the battlefield, that's bad and inconsistent strategy, just to make sure the audience knows that it is in range.

:*There is probably a greater timespan between arrival of the patrol and that of the strikeforce then shown onscreen. Helo manipulates the oxygen-system after the jump, nevertheless the prisoners are already dead by the time the resurrection ship appears, indicating a least a few minutes have passed. The process can be seen in [[Flight of the Phoenix]] in the firing range scene (it's likely that Helo manipulated the same system).

:Two more plotholes I noticed: How do the Colonials know the Cylon supply lines? And given that they know Athena is immune because she's given birth to a hybrid child, they should wonder if there a more human-cylon hybrids. Even without knowing that Hera is still alive, if the massive Cylon effort to create hybrids resulted in creating at least one more hybrid the cylons would take a blow, but would not be exstinct. By the way it would be nice if we would hear something about these efforts. When Hera is shown for the first time in Cylon hands would be a good opportunity to close that chapter with a throwaway line that all these efforts were fruitless and stopped. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 11:24, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: That's an interesting question -- one that I had myself, actually. Even if the effort didn't destroy the Cylon race (and I think that goal is overly optimistic), the virus would have given a serious blow to the Cylons, which would only serve to give the survivors more breathing room -- not to metion the increase in general morale, which the survivors seriously need after the farce at New Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

I would have to agree the writing is poor. The series seems to be drifting from its roots and moving into the Hollywood PC political statement world. This season has already thrown in suicide bombing and implied it was acceptable, now there is a drift into making political statements about biological weapons (even though nuclear weapons have been freely used in the past.) It seems the writers are abandoning their science fiction roots and reaching to make their own personal social or political commentary. I do hope they get back to what I considered truly exceptional science fiction and stop these editorials.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 00:06, 12 November 2006 (CST)

Followup: According to and article on the Gateworld site ([http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/10/season_three_ratings_slip_from_premiere.shtml]) the ratings have been slipping. As much as I truly love this show, I know my wife and I were both rather disgusted with the previous inclusion of the suicide bombers and now the “loss of humanity” references associated with the potential use of biological weapons. I have also heard complaints from two of our friends. I’m concerned that if this direction is continued it will not only ruin the show, it will also drive away viewers resulting in cancelation. As a long time science fiction fan (I even remember watching the original showings of Lost in Space and the first Star Trek) this has been my all time favorite show up until now. I would hate to see it have an early demise. As I mentioned above, I hope the writers can return to science fiction and entertainment.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 16:13, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: Ratings have been slipping for ''SG-1'' and ''Atlantis'' as well; neither have the strong allegories to today's world, or the world of yesteryear for that matter. So I don't fully buy that there's a direct correlation between the creative direction BSG is going and the loss in viewership. Actually, one could probably argue (more successfully in my informed opinion) that the loss of ratings has more to do with Sci-Fi's scheduling decisions of breaking up the "Three Amigos" (''Stargate SG-1'', ''Stargate Atlantis'' and ''Battlestar Galactica''). As for the "loss of humanity" and suicide bombing themes, these have existed since the miniseries (Number Five's suicide bombing attempt in "[[Litmus]]" and Adama's speech in the miniseries and platitudes since then). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::: In my very informed opinion, I would have to disagree on several points. While time slots and lineup can affect ratings, this usually is reflected in those of the shows with the weaker individual draw. Galactica is a cornerstone show which should draw up the ratings for those around it rather than have such a slump from a lineup change.

::: As for the previous Friday lineup, SG-1 ratings have steadily declined since the departure of Richard Dean Anderson. His departure also seemed to coincide with decline in the quality of the writing, though I’m not convinced the two were related rather than just coincidental. I have always believed the SG Atlantis was the weak link in that lineup and was carried by its position between SG-1 and BSG. As mentioned in the article I referenced above, Dr. Who, which leads into BSG, has had poor ratings this season. I believe the replacement of the very likable actor playing the title role, though consistent with the original BBC series, was a detriment to this series. In addition, this season’s writing has seemed less creative and entertaining. I greatly enjoyed their first season, but have found the current one to be rather dull and uninteresting. This certainly doesn’t help with the Galactica ratings, but I don’t believe it is the major factor in the decline.

::: The introduction of controversial topics into plot lines is often risky, particularly with science fiction which is typically considered pure escapism, even when it has a dark element like BSG (i.e.: The potential extermination of the human race and the continued threat from the Cylon.) Generally, Sci-Fi fans want to escape the real world and be entertained, not lectured on the writers’ political or social views of modern events. While any controversial topic is a risk, the introduction of those that are currently so polarizing is almost a guarantee of distancing a significant portion of your fan base.

::: You associated the bombing executed by a Cylon against those carried out by human suicide bombers. The two aren’t even remotely comparable. The first was not executed by a human, was not condoned by the humans, and was executed by an individual who (as already had been established) would be reborn (“downloaded”) into a new body, but as the same individual. The later was not only condoned by members of the upper human leadership, it was presented as a reasonable and acceptable approach in a given situation – a strong statement considering current world events. (As someone who’s nephew’s squad was attacked by the first suicide bomber in the gulf war, killing many of his squad just a few yards in front of him, I will freely admit to strong personal feelings in this matter. None the less, such controversial plot elements are invariably going to strongly offend a significant number of viewers.) The inference that the humans must limit their use of weapons against an enemy bent on the genocide of humanity is another PC component. Biological weapons as a plot element would have been better completely left out rather than used as a mechanism for additional political commentary. Remember, people watch for entertainment, not a reminder of current events or a thinly disguised lecture from Hollywood writers on their political and social opinions.

::: It is also rather telling that the ratings dropped rather significantly after the season 3 premiere (where suicide bombings by humans were introduced and condoned.) I’ll be interested in seeing how the ratings are affected after this latest one sided (read: “PC”) foray into contemporary controversial issues.

::: --[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 20:40, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::::I doubt that the suicide bombings in Occupation and Precipice were "condoned" by the show. Roslin didn't like them. Tigh, who planned them, thought they were bad. Even Baltar (who's been developing a conscience this season, thank the Gods) didn't like them. The first was a waste of life and counterproductive, causing a massive Cylon freakout that would have killed off Roslin, Zarek, Cally and a bunch of other people if the resistance hadn't saved them in the last minute. The second took down the power grid, which was more helpful, but it should be noted that in this case the bomber didn't kill any civilians, just herself and some Cylons. Tigh is still suffering because of the choices he made on New Caprica, and it doesn't look like he's coming out of those moral woods anytime soon.

::::Furthermore, I don't think the show has condemned the use of the Cylon virus, either. Roslin was all about it, after all, and I don't think there's anything less PC than a schoolteacher with a Messiah complex jonesing for some genocide. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 22:33, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:::: The use of nuclear weapons are logical in a space setting where great distances are involved and ships are heavily armoured. I would suspect, though, that a Presidential order would have been required to use nukes on the surface of a populated planet. The use of bio-weapons would probably have similiar restrictions because of their nature. I disagree that this show was PC. The weapon that the humans stumbled upon had a unique ability to wipe out the entire race of cyclons. To use it does carry far more ethical problems than simply using a nuke on a basestar. To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 09:39, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:::I think the show has been attacking issues that are important in our modern world since the beginning. Basic issues like balance of power, whether civilian government should stay in power during a massive crisis and war, religion in general, how to treat thouse different from yourselves (the show has been very ambivalent about killing Cylons, even though they are "just robots"), Baltar's initial refusal to believe in the gods or a god. It has even tackled thitngs like terrorism as a means to an end (Zarek was introduced at the beginning of the first season), abortion, infanticide, torture, treatment of prisoners. In all, it has been very current and politically involved since the beginning. However, with the first 4 episodes of season 3, it took a decidedly controversial and risky turn by depicting our favorite valiant and noble heros under brutal occupation. The writers have guts, and their ratings may have suffered, but they are doing the same thing they've been doing since the beginning of the show. It's just now a lot of poeple who watch TV don't agree with the particular direction the show took. However, even then, it left the viewer to choose for him or herself what to think, it was again ambivalent, which may be what makes it the best show on TV. No, the show will not supply you with easy answers and moral certitude to very important current questions. But that's a good thing, not a bad thing. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 15:49, 13 November 2006 (EST)

::::I have to agree that it's been dealing with controversial issues from the start. One thing I've learned about BsG from watching it is that every time you think there's a line they won't cross, they seem to cross it. I think Yaneh has it right. Now, with them back in space, I do think it might turn more towards classic sci-fi, but I do agree this is not an unprecedented pattern. As for the writing on this particular episode, I think there were some odd references or slip-ups, which to my mind were made for the sole purpose of bailing Galactica out of the responsibility for a genocide. But I'm not going to judge the whole show at this point--it's WAY too early for that. I'm even more of a music buff than a TV buff, and I don't write off a band until there are 3 stinkers in a row. Let's wait and see if this a pattern before we write BsG off. --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

== Explanations ==

A note about the Resurection ship jumping into the battle... it would seem that this is actually a good tactical move from the Cylon perspective. After Pegasus and Galactica easily destroyed the first resurrection ship and it's escorts, it would be prudent for the Cylons to keep the new ship with their fleet... even if this means taking it into battle with them. From their point of view it might look as if Galactica was trying to sucker the baseships away from the resurrection ship so the colonials could attack it. They've already used the "sucker" strategy a number of times, we could just be seeing a Cylon reaction to that strategy. Bringing the ship with them would negate such a threat as several basestars (more than enough to hold galactica off) would be able to cover for it.

As far as supply lines, it would figure that Galactica would know about this. Basic military strategy is to harass or at least keep an eye on enemy supply lines.

Also a note about the raptors and their missiles. The colonials may have found, after the battle over new caprica, that the missile attachments for the raptors were effective and could be adapted for other (combat) uses as well. It would also figure that after the loss of Pegasus, the colonials would be trying everything they could to increase firepower. This is probably just a jury-rig solution for increasing galactica's firepower.

: And all this has yet to be supported on screen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:45, 13 November 2006 (CST)

::In [[The Captain's Hand]] Admiral Adama orders a recon of 5 Raptors, 2 of them SAR and 3 Escort. Though never seen onscreen heavily armed Raptors must have been around for some time. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:57, 13 November 2006 (CST)

: It is also distinctly possible that the weapon pods were not available until the arrival of the Pegasus. The cache at Ragnar Anchorage was likely primarily the weapons themselves, and not a supply of launchers or similar hardware. Since Galactica was slated for retirement and Pegasus was fully operational it is very likely the later ship was much better equipped with combat military hardware.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 22:30, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== About Gaeta ==
Looking at the question here:

: Why is Gaeta so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D'Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?

Er, well, the last time Gaeta saw Baltar, he gave him a gun and told him his last chance at redemption was to stop Three from setting off the nuke. Given that the nuke didn't go off, it isn't unreasonable to believe Baltar was successful, and that in succeeding he would have either died or been stranded on New Caprica. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 02:50, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:Gaeta knew that he was chummy with the Cylons. For him to convince them not to detonate the nuke (not hard, given that it would be at best a symbolic gesture) and still make it off the planet alive is well within the realm of possibility. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==A quick battle==

I was just wondering but is the skirmish with Galactica and the Basestars going to be added into the Second Cylon War or not? Sure it was short but it still had combat and casualties so it should be added to the list. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:54, 13 November 2006 (CST)
: Sure, I don't see why not. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:10, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==Baltar's Torture==

This is just pure speculation for speculation's sake, but I can't help thinking something more than Three being "touched" by Baltar's insane screaming of "don't stop..." "I believe in you" and "I love you with all my heart" (with internal Six's coaching) is going on in this scene. Three's indiference at the onset of her torturing, and her musing over which torture tool she should use doesnt seem like it could be changed or swayed by anything Baltar would say. i would say that judging from the torture tools they have, and their experiences on New Caprica at extracting information on detainees they know a little about torturing, it doesn't seem that Baltar saying anything he could to stop the torture would be unexpected. This leads me to wonder about exactly what he did say with the help of internal Six. perhaps those phrases, or the way he said it struck something in Three that only Cylons are aware of...maybe it means something that neither the Viewer or Baltar is aware of...I just find it hard to believe that Three, fully prepared for torture, even having fun picking what instrument to use...could be so easily moved from some snivelling bleating human saying he loves her with all his heart...Did Six give Baltar these phrases to say because she knew they'd strike a cord in a fellow Cylon, Three's reaciton was quite a reaction, and then touching his lips like she couldn't believe those words came out of his mouth.....I don't know...just speculating.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:23, 14 November 2006 (CST)

--I wonder if the incongruity of those phrases to the situation of being tortured made Three wonder if Baltar was projecting. Now, if they've tortured other humans, they've probably seen people break with reality and shut down before, but perhaps that's a reaction beyond anything they've ever seen before. More like a Cylon being tortured? Is that what their instinct is, if they're in the same situation as Baltar? --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

==Note about the virus is incorrect==

The note:

Dr. Cottle identifies the disease as Lymphocytic encephalitis, however encephalitis is a condition (swelling of the brain) that can be caused by a pathogen, not a pathogen itself. More likely the pathogen is Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus.

When a doctor identifies a disease, he normally states the name of the disease, not the name of the virus. The note itself states that Doc Cottle identifies the "disease," not the pathogen. I think the note needs to be modified or deleted. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 20:58, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== Accessing the "Hybrid?" ==

Is that what Athena is doing? Do we know that? It just sounds odd when phrased that way. [[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 02:56, 14 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:A Measure of Salvation/Archive 1

2006-11-14T18:23:56Z

Rose Immortal: /* Some Poor Writing */

==Picture?==
Is that picture from A Measure of Salvation? I don't remember Three and Six projecting themselves into a forest. The outfits they are wearing look like what they wore while torturing Baltar, so maybe it's from a deleted scene. Unless I've forgotten the scene for some reason, shouldn't we get a picture that actually came from the episode? -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Some Poor Writing ==

Attention to detail is what has set BSG apart from so many other science-fiction shows - including Mr. Moore's Star Trek franchises. So I was very disappointed last night to see the sloppy errors piling up deep. I'd have to see the epsiode again to list them all, but mainly them problems concerned the virus.

The scene where potentially infected Galactica crew are "quarantined", together with Sharon, in a room with cold-storage plastic flaps was ridiculous.

It's preposterous to think that a cylon would casually betray his race for the anti-viral drug. He has no assurance that he won't be double-crossed, and he certainly - even after torture - wouldn't spell out the danger the virus poses to the cylon fleet. The audience isn't stupid and neither should the Galctica crew be. Seeing Lee with a dim little lightbulb over his head was just insulting to us all.

Past episodes have cleary shown that cylon ressurection occurs over significant distances, (greater than FTL jumps), and that calls into question the fundemental logistics of Adama's infection plan.

There would be no reason to jump Galactica itself, just sending one raptor with a cylon transponder and one infected cylon would have done the trick. (Nevermind the ease with which two cylon raiders almost instantly materialize into a whole cylon fleet with a resurrectionship conveniently in tow.)

The analysis on the episode summary page provides an excellent plot device allowing the raid to "succeed" thus justifying the major build-up of the two part story. In fact, it would have made a superb three part arc.

Hypothetical episode 3: Spend some realistic period of time finding a reasonably sized cylon fleet, infect them, virus begins spreading throughout area covered by the "local" resurrection ship. Cylons scramble to head off disease, Baltar gains points by developing Hera vaccine, cylons survive but with major "body-blow" giving Galactica and fleet some breathing room as they prepare to investigate the new lead to Earth.

Please don't get me wrong, I love this show, but sci-fi writing has always been done on the cheap and it make my eyes roll as I struggle to care about characters forced through non-sensical plot contortions. Please, Mr. Moore, DON'T LET BSG SINK TO THE SAME SAD FATE! I'm trusting that this was just a hiccup not a trend.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 13:08, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:In defense of the writers, I think you are wrong on two points:
:*Jumping Galactica makes sense. In [[Scar]] Cylon Raiders are engaging in skirmishes despite the absence of a resurrection ship. A Raptor is not a big enough threat to guarantee the presence of a resurrection ship. If one isn't in range by accident the Cylons would probably engage the Raptor without it and take a minor risk of permanently loosing a few raiders. And after [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]] the Cylons could be exspected to take a closer look to any unexpected Raptors with a Cylon transponder showing up. If they destroy it without a resurrection ship in range, the plans failed. Also Racetrack stated last episode that there is a shortage of Raptors in the fleet, noone is going to be eager to sacrifice one. Jumping Galactica ensures the Cylon require lots of forces, expect lot's of casualties and have a resurrection ship nearby, though I could have done without seeing it arrive on the battlefield, that's bad and inconsistent strategy, just to make sure the audience knows that it is in range.

:*There is probably a greater timespan between arrival of the patrol and that of the strikeforce then shown onscreen. Helo manipulates the oxygen-system after the jump, nevertheless the prisoners are already dead by the time the resurrection ship appears, indicating a least a few minutes have passed. The process can be seen in [[Flight of the Phoenix]] in the firing range scene (it's likely that Helo manipulated the same system).

:Two more plotholes I noticed: How do the Colonials know the Cylon supply lines? And given that they know Athena is immune because she's given birth to a hybrid child, they should wonder if there a more human-cylon hybrids. Even without knowing that Hera is still alive, if the massive Cylon effort to create hybrids resulted in creating at least one more hybrid the cylons would take a blow, but would not be exstinct. By the way it would be nice if we would hear something about these efforts. When Hera is shown for the first time in Cylon hands would be a good opportunity to close that chapter with a throwaway line that all these efforts were fruitless and stopped. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 11:24, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: That's an interesting question -- one that I had myself, actually. Even if the effort didn't destroy the Cylon race (and I think that goal is overly optimistic), the virus would have given a serious blow to the Cylons, which would only serve to give the survivors more breathing room -- not to metion the increase in general morale, which the survivors seriously need after the farce at New Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

I would have to agree the writing is poor. The series seems to be drifting from its roots and moving into the Hollywood PC political statement world. This season has already thrown in suicide bombing and implied it was acceptable, now there is a drift into making political statements about biological weapons (even though nuclear weapons have been freely used in the past.) It seems the writers are abandoning their science fiction roots and reaching to make their own personal social or political commentary. I do hope they get back to what I considered truly exceptional science fiction and stop these editorials.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 00:06, 12 November 2006 (CST)

Followup: According to and article on the Gateworld site ([http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/10/season_three_ratings_slip_from_premiere.shtml]) the ratings have been slipping. As much as I truly love this show, I know my wife and I were both rather disgusted with the previous inclusion of the suicide bombers and now the “loss of humanity” references associated with the potential use of biological weapons. I have also heard complaints from two of our friends. I’m concerned that if this direction is continued it will not only ruin the show, it will also drive away viewers resulting in cancelation. As a long time science fiction fan (I even remember watching the original showings of Lost in Space and the first Star Trek) this has been my all time favorite show up until now. I would hate to see it have an early demise. As I mentioned above, I hope the writers can return to science fiction and entertainment.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 16:13, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: Ratings have been slipping for ''SG-1'' and ''Atlantis'' as well; neither have the strong allegories to today's world, or the world of yesteryear for that matter. So I don't fully buy that there's a direct correlation between the creative direction BSG is going and the loss in viewership. Actually, one could probably argue (more successfully in my informed opinion) that the loss of ratings has more to do with Sci-Fi's scheduling decisions of breaking up the "Three Amigos" (''Stargate SG-1'', ''Stargate Atlantis'' and ''Battlestar Galactica''). As for the "loss of humanity" and suicide bombing themes, these have existed since the miniseries (Number Five's suicide bombing attempt in "[[Litmus]]" and Adama's speech in the miniseries and platitudes since then). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::: In my very informed opinion, I would have to disagree on several points. While time slots and lineup can affect ratings, this usually is reflected in those of the shows with the weaker individual draw. Galactica is a cornerstone show which should draw up the ratings for those around it rather than have such a slump from a lineup change.

::: As for the previous Friday lineup, SG-1 ratings have steadily declined since the departure of Richard Dean Anderson. His departure also seemed to coincide with decline in the quality of the writing, though I’m not convinced the two were related rather than just coincidental. I have always believed the SG Atlantis was the weak link in that lineup and was carried by its position between SG-1 and BSG. As mentioned in the article I referenced above, Dr. Who, which leads into BSG, has had poor ratings this season. I believe the replacement of the very likable actor playing the title role, though consistent with the original BBC series, was a detriment to this series. In addition, this season’s writing has seemed less creative and entertaining. I greatly enjoyed their first season, but have found the current one to be rather dull and uninteresting. This certainly doesn’t help with the Galactica ratings, but I don’t believe it is the major factor in the decline.

::: The introduction of controversial topics into plot lines is often risky, particularly with science fiction which is typically considered pure escapism, even when it has a dark element like BSG (i.e.: The potential extermination of the human race and the continued threat from the Cylon.) Generally, Sci-Fi fans want to escape the real world and be entertained, not lectured on the writers’ political or social views of modern events. While any controversial topic is a risk, the introduction of those that are currently so polarizing is almost a guarantee of distancing a significant portion of your fan base.

::: You associated the bombing executed by a Cylon against those carried out by human suicide bombers. The two aren’t even remotely comparable. The first was not executed by a human, was not condoned by the humans, and was executed by an individual who (as already had been established) would be reborn (“downloaded”) into a new body, but as the same individual. The later was not only condoned by members of the upper human leadership, it was presented as a reasonable and acceptable approach in a given situation – a strong statement considering current world events. (As someone who’s nephew’s squad was attacked by the first suicide bomber in the gulf war, killing many of his squad just a few yards in front of him, I will freely admit to strong personal feelings in this matter. None the less, such controversial plot elements are invariably going to strongly offend a significant number of viewers.) The inference that the humans must limit their use of weapons against an enemy bent on the genocide of humanity is another PC component. Biological weapons as a plot element would have been better completely left out rather than used as a mechanism for additional political commentary. Remember, people watch for entertainment, not a reminder of current events or a thinly disguised lecture from Hollywood writers on their political and social opinions.

::: It is also rather telling that the ratings dropped rather significantly after the season 3 premiere (where suicide bombings by humans were introduced and condoned.) I’ll be interested in seeing how the ratings are affected after this latest one sided (read: “PC”) foray into contemporary controversial issues.

::: --[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 20:40, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::::I doubt that the suicide bombings in Occupation and Precipice were "condoned" by the show. Roslin didn't like them. Tigh, who planned them, thought they were bad. Even Baltar (who's been developing a conscience this season, thank the Gods) didn't like them. The first was a waste of life and counterproductive, causing a massive Cylon freakout that would have killed off Roslin, Zarek, Cally and a bunch of other people if the resistance hadn't saved them in the last minute. The second took down the power grid, which was more helpful, but it should be noted that in this case the bomber didn't kill any civilians, just herself and some Cylons. Tigh is still suffering because of the choices he made on New Caprica, and it doesn't look like he's coming out of those moral woods anytime soon.

::::Furthermore, I don't think the show has condemned the use of the Cylon virus, either. Roslin was all about it, after all, and I don't think there's anything less PC than a schoolteacher with a Messiah complex jonesing for some genocide. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 22:33, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:::: The use of nuclear weapons are logical in a space setting where great distances are involved and ships are heavily armoured. I would suspect, though, that a Presidential order would have been required to use nukes on the surface of a populated planet. The use of bio-weapons would probably have similiar restrictions because of their nature. I disagree that this show was PC. The weapon that the humans stumbled upon had a unique ability to wipe out the entire race of cyclons. To use it does carry far more ethical problems than simply using a nuke on a basestar. To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 09:39, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:::I think the show has been attacking issues that are important in our modern world since the beginning. Basic issues like balance of power, whether civilian government should stay in power during a massive crisis and war, religion in general, how to treat thouse different from yourselves (the show has been very ambivalent about killing Cylons, even though they are "just robots"), Baltar's initial refusal to believe in the gods or a god. It has even tackled thitngs like terrorism as a means to an end (Zarek was introduced at the beginning of the first season), abortion, infanticide, torture, treatment of prisoners. In all, it has been very current and politically involved since the beginning. However, with the first 4 episodes of season 3, it took a decidedly controversial and risky turn by depicting our favorite valiant and noble heros under brutal occupation. The writers have guts, and their ratings may have suffered, but they are doing the same thing they've been doing since the beginning of the show. It's just now a lot of poeple who watch TV don't agree with the particular direction the show took. However, even then, it left the viewer to choose for him or herself what to think, it was again ambivalent, which may be what makes it the best show on TV. No, the show will not supply you with easy answers and moral certitude to very important current questions. But that's a good thing, not a bad thing. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 15:49, 13 November 2006 (EST)

::::I have to agree that it's been dealing with controversial issues from the start. One thing I've learned about BsG from watching it is that every time you think there's a line they won't cross, they seem to cross it. I think Yaneh has it right. Now, with them back in space, I do think it might turn more towards classic sci-fi, but I do agree this is not an unprecedented pattern. As for the writing on this particular episode, I think there were some odd references or slip-ups, which to my mind were made for the sole purpose of bailing Galactica out of the responsibility for a genocide. But I'm not going to judge the whole show at this point--it's WAY too early for that. I'm even more of a music buff than a TV buff, and I don't write off a band until there are 3 stinkers in a row. Let's wait and see if this a pattern before we write BsG off. --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

== Explanations ==

A note about the Resurection ship jumping into the battle... it would seem that this is actually a good tactical move from the Cylon perspective. After Pegasus and Galactica easily destroyed the first resurrection ship and it's escorts, it would be prudent for the Cylons to keep the new ship with their fleet... even if this means taking it into battle with them. From their point of view it might look as if Galactica was trying to sucker the baseships away from the resurrection ship so the colonials could attack it. They've already used the "sucker" strategy a number of times, we could just be seeing a Cylon reaction to that strategy. Bringing the ship with them would negate such a threat as several basestars (more than enough to hold galactica off) would be able to cover for it.

As far as supply lines, it would figure that Galactica would know about this. Basic military strategy is to harass or at least keep an eye on enemy supply lines.

Also a note about the raptors and their missiles. The colonials may have found, after the battle over new caprica, that the missile attachments for the raptors were effective and could be adapted for other (combat) uses as well. It would also figure that after the loss of Pegasus, the colonials would be trying everything they could to increase firepower. This is probably just a jury-rig solution for increasing galactica's firepower.

: And all this has yet to be supported on screen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:45, 13 November 2006 (CST)

::In [[The Captain's Hand]] Admiral Adama orders a recon of 5 Raptors, 2 of them SAR and 3 Escort. Though never seen onscreen heavily armed Raptors must have been around for some time. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:57, 13 November 2006 (CST)

: It is also distinctly possible that the weapon pods were not available until the arrival of the Pegasus. The cache at Ragnar Anchorage was likely primarily the weapons themselves, and not a supply of launchers or similar hardware. Since Galactica was slated for retirement and Pegasus was fully operational it is very likely the later ship was much better equipped with combat military hardware.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 22:30, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== About Gaeta ==
Looking at the question here:

: Why is Gaeta so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D'Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?

Er, well, the last time Gaeta saw Baltar, he gave him a gun and told him his last chance at redemption was to stop Three from setting off the nuke. Given that the nuke didn't go off, it isn't unreasonable to believe Baltar was successful, and that in succeeding he would have either died or been stranded on New Caprica. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 02:50, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:Gaeta knew that he was chummy with the Cylons. For him to convince them not to detonate the nuke (not hard, given that it would be at best a symbolic gesture) and still make it off the planet alive is well within the realm of possibility. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==A quick battle==

I was just wondering but is the skirmish with Galactica and the Basestars going to be added into the Second Cylon War or not? Sure it was short but it still had combat and casualties so it should be added to the list. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:54, 13 November 2006 (CST)
: Sure, I don't see why not. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:10, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==Baltar's Torture==

This is just pure speculation for speculation's sake, but I can't help thinking something more than Three being "touched" by Baltar's insane screaming of "don't stop..." "I believe in you" and "I love you with all my heart" (with internal Six's coashing) is going on in this scene. Three's indiference at the onset of her torturing, and her musing over which torture tool she should use doesnt seem like it could be changed or swayed by anything Baltar would say. i would say that judging from the torture tools they have, and their experiences on New Caprica at extracting information on detainees they know a little about torturing, it doesn't seem that Baltar saying anything he could to stop the torture would be unexpected. This leads me to wonder about exactly what he did say with the help of internal Six. perhaps those phrases, or the way he said it struck something in Three that only Cylons are aware of...maybe it means something that neither the Viewer or Baltar is aware of...I just find it hard to believe that Three, fully prepared for torture, even having fun picking what instrument to use...could be so easily moved from some snivelling bleating human saying he loves her with all his heart...Did Six give Baltar these phrases to say because she knew they'd strike a cord in a fellow Cylon, Three's reaciton was quite a reaction, and then touching his lips like she couldn't believe those words came out of his mouth.....I don't know...just speculating.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:23, 14 November 2006 (CST)

==Note about the virus is incorrect==

The note:

Dr. Cottle identifies the disease as Lymphocytic encephalitis, however encephalitis is a condition (swelling of the brain) that can be caused by a pathogen, not a pathogen itself. More likely the pathogen is Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus.

When a doctor identifies a disease, he normally states the name of the disease, not the name of the virus. The note itself states that Doc Cottle identifies the "disease," not the pathogen. I think the note needs to be modified or deleted. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 20:58, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== Accessing the "Hybrid?" ==

Is that what Athena is doing? Do we know that? It just sounds odd when phrased that way. [[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 02:56, 14 November 2006 (CST)

Sharon Agathon

2006-11-14T06:22:10Z

Rose Immortal: /* Officer of the Colonial Fleet */

:''This article concerns a copy of Cylon Model [[Number Eight]] first seen on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], who marries [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and becomes a Colonial Officer. For information on Sharon "Boomer" Valerii first seen on ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]],'' the lover of [[Galen Tyrol]], see [[Sharon Valerii]]. For general information about these Cylon copies, see [[Number Eight]].''
{{Character Data|
|photo=CapShar.jpg
|age=
|colony=
|birthname=
|servicen=
|callsign= Athena
|seen= 33
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|children= [[Hera]] (Human-Cylon hybrid)
|marital status= Married to [[Karl Agathon]].
|role= Colonial Officer on battlestar ''Galactica''.
|rank= Lieutenant (Junior Grade)
|actor= [[Grace Park]]
|cylon= y
|name= Sharon Agathon
}}
'''Sharon "Athena" Agathon''' is a copy of the Cylon human model [[Number Eight]] who is first encountered by [[Karl Agathon|Karl "Helo" Agathon]], when he is stranded on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]]. She is initially assigned to seduce him by impersonating Lt. [[Sharon Valerii]], as part of a Cylon cross-breeding experiment, but later turns against her people and helps him escape the planet; pregnant with his child during that time. Helo, first shocked by her true nature, ultimately accepts her as the mother of his child and declares his love for her.

Once on ''Galactica'', she is imprisoned and long seen as a mere object. She frequently provides intelligence, but is severely mistreated by an interrogator from ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' who beats and sexually assaults her. Over time, she earns [[William Adama|Admiral Adama's]] trust by helping the [[Colonial Fleet]] escape peril several times and she is eventually appointed as an officer of the Colonial Fleet. Agathon gives birth on ''Galactica'', but her child [[Hera]] is subsequently hidden from her and she believes Hera to be dead. She is married to Karl Agathon.

== Biography ==
=== Cylon cross-breeding experiment ===
This [[Number Eight]] is first seen on [[Caprica]], as the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] decide to use her in an elaborate experiment focused around [[Karl Agathon|Karl "Helo" Agathon]] who is stranded on the planet after he gave up his seat on his and [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer's]] [[Raptor]] on the day of the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. The Cylons intend to use this Eight who is an identical copy of Helo's friend and colleague [[Sharon Valerii|Sharon "Boomer" Valerii]], to examine the possibilities of Cylon-human procreation. This second Valerii appears to Helo to rescues him after he is captured by a [[Number Six|Six]] and [[Cylon Centurion|Cylon Centurions]]. Unaware that Cylons have developed human models, Helo believes her to be the "Boomer" he knows from ''Galactica'', returning to rescue him. Following this rescue, Valerii leads Helo to "her" Raptor, now surrounded by several Cylon Centurions, convincing him that they have no direct way off of the planet. Copies of [[Aaron Doral]] and [[Number Six]] oversee the experiment ([[Water]]).

After receiving a "Colonial signal" on a radio receiver they carry, Valerii leads Helo to a city where they find a fully-equipped "fallout shelter" in which two people can live in reasonable security, hidden from above-ground Cylon operations, and with sufficient supplies to last a considerable period of time ([[Act of Contrition]]). The purpose in establishing this "nest" is to elicit an emotional response in Helo towards Valerii. When this fails, as Helo continues to seek a way off Caprica, the Cylons arrange for Valerii to be "captured", concluding that if Helo does not seek to rescue her, the experiment has failed, and he must be killed ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]).

Helo does indeed "rescue" Valerii. Helo has always been fond of Valerii; his long-time affection for her (stilled by "her" relationship with [[Galen Tyrol]]) arises within him from the dramatic rescue, which leads to Helo and Valerii having sex ([[Six Degrees of Separation]]). Valerii later reports this achievement to Doral and Six. A new hideout, a cabin in the woods, is being constructed for Helo and Valerii. She is instructed to lead him there and have him stay with her - or kill him if he attempts to leave ([[Flesh and Bone]]). But Valerii's human emotions begin to question the Cylon's overall goal. Realizing that she has herself fallen in love with Helo, Valerii disobeys her instructions and attempts to lead Helo to [[Delphi]], where they hope to steal a vehicle and get off the planet ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]). On the way to the spaceport, Valerii shows signs of being pregnant: she succumbs to a bout of morning sickness ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]) and develops a ravenous appetite ([[Colonial Day]]).

=== Helo's discovery ===
[[Image:Boomerhelokara.jpg|235px|left|Helo attempts to stop Kara from shooting Sharon, in the Delphi Museum.|thumb]]
On reaching Delphi, Valerii and Helo break into the Cylon facilities to reach the spaceport. When Helo encounters yet another copy of Valerii, he draws the initial conclusion that she is a human clone created by the Cylons, and goes on the run alone ([[Colonial Day]]). When Valerii catches up with him, her emotional condition is so confused that she challenges him to shoot her ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]). Helo can only bring himself to wound her, and takes her with him to use her to somehow get off Caprica. While Helo keeps her at gunpoint, Valerii leads him to the [[Delphi Museum]]. Waiting out a storm in a nearby ruined building, Valerii tells Helo that her love for him is real and that she is pregnant with his child.

When she and Helo come across [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]], who lands near the museum to retrieve the [[Arrow of Apollo]], Thrace realizes on-sight that this Valerii is a Cylon (having left [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|"Boomer" Valerii]] behind with the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]]) and attempts to shoot her. Helo stops Thrace and reveals to her that Valerii is pregnant ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). Starbuck, like Helo, also wrongly concludes that Caprica-Valerii must be a Cylon copy of the "real" Sharon Valerii on ''Galactica''. Valerii tries to convince her that she and "Boomer" Valerii are both Cylons but also just as "real" as the other. Valerii attempts to prove this by recollecting the first time she and Starbuck met, to no avail.

=== Resistance movement and arrival at the Fleet ===

While Thrace and Helo argue over Valerii, the confused and frightened Cylon escapes in Thrace's Cylon Raider to save herself and the life of her unborn child ([[Scattered]]). After tracking them for several days, Valerii returns to Helo and a human [[Caprica Resistance|resistance movement]] that had formed on Caprica. She offers her aid in finding the missing Thrace ([[The Farm]]). After Thrace escapes to the outside of the hospital where she was imprisoned, Valerii arrives at the rescue scene in a stolen [[Heavy Raider]] and destroys several Centurions that attack the Resistance rescue party. Convinced that Helo's Valerii copy can be sufficiently trusted, or at least give useful information on Cylon activity, the humans allow Valerii to accompany them as they fly the Heavy Raider back to [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]].

When Valerii walks aboard the ''[[Astral Queen]]'', [[Lee Adama]] reacts violently. The son of Commander [[William Adama|Adama]] (shot by the sleeper Cylon agent "Boomer" Valerii) grabs this second Valerii and places his gun to her head. Helo draws his sidearm against Adama, forcing a standoff, but President Roslin urges both men enough to withdraw their weapons, and orders Valerii to be ejected out the airlock. Valerii pleads for her life, telling Roslin she knows the precise location of the [[Laura Roslin faction|faction's]] objective: The [[Tomb of Athena]]. Roslin reconsiders and places Valerii in the brig. Roslin later confirms that the Cylon is actually working on their side because Valerii wants her child and Helo to remain safe from what Roslin interprets as a mothering instinct.

=== Guide on Kobol ===
[[image:sharonhome.jpg|235px|Sharon on Kobol, with Helo, Elosha, and Roslin.|thumb]]
Valerii accompanies Roslin's party to [[Kobol]]. Valerii recites the specific passages of the Tomb in the scriptures of the [[Sacred Scrolls]] and plots the group's path along a ridge nearby. As priestess [[Elosha]] examines a gravestone marker along the ancient trail, the handcuffed Valerii senses danger but is too late to warn anyone; two "[[Wikipedia:S-mine|Bouncing Betty]]"-style antipersonnel mines detonate, killing Elosha. At the same instant, a group of Centurions open fire. As others hide or return fire, Valerii vaults away, with Lee Adama in pursuit, believing she is trying to escape. Valerii scoops up a grenade launcher lying ahead, and just as Lee Adama thinks she is about to shoot him, she aims for the last Centurion and destroys it ([[Home, Part I]]). At camp, Adama and Thrace are perplexed that Helo still loves Valerii, despite his awareness of her true nature as a Cylon.

During the trek, Valerii casually tells Helo that their child is a girl. Not long after, Commander Adama's search party arrives at Roslin's camp. The warm reunion of the two leaders and family is interrupted when Adama sees this second copy of Sharon Valerii. Reacting as his son did, Commander Adama immediately tries to choke her to death. He releases her after experiencing terrible chest pains (probably the result of his recent surgery, or from anxiety), as she says "And you asked 'why'?" (mysteriously referencing what Commander Adama said over the dead body of "Boomer" Valerii).

[[Tom Zarek]]'s follower, [[Meier]], tries to convince Valerii to help him kill both Adamas as part of a power play by Zarek. Valerii believed her ''Galactica'' counterpart was being held in the [[brig]], but Meier informs her that she was killed. She expresses her outrage to Helo that [[Cally]] killed Boomer, receiving only a minor punishment. Valerii deduces that the Colonials don't see humanoid Cylons are people; she is a thing they may destroy once they no longer need her. Valerii appears to take up Meier's proposal to kill Commander Adama and Lee Adama, but after they all draw their weapons, she shoots Meier instead, saving the lives of both Adamas. She announces to Commander Adama that she is not the same Sharon Valerii that shot him, and that she is not a sleeper agent with hidden protocols waiting to activate; she makes her own choices. She surrenders the weapon to Commander Adama, to everyone's surprise.

=== Cooperation with the human fleet ===
[[Image:Valerii_virus.jpg|thumb|170px|left|Valerii in trance while disabling the Cylon logic bomb.]]
Subsequently, Valerii is brought aboard battlestar ''[[Galactica]]'' and imprisoned in a new reinforced cell designed to incarcerate "Boomer." The virtual [[Number Six]] tells Dr. Baltar that Valerii's baby will be born in that cell. Number Six considers Valerii's and Helo's biological child to be hers; she says that she will be its "mother" and Baltar will be its "father" ([[Home, Part II]]).

While in her cell, Valerii nearly has a miscarriage, and is rushed to [[Sickbay]] where Dr. [[Cottle]] succeeds in saving the fetus. [[D'anna Biers]], a reporter for the [[Fleet News Service]], stumbles upon Valerii while filming her documentary in Sickbay. Biers threatens to expose that Commander Adama is harboring a Cylon aboard ''Galactica'', but he confiscates what he believed was Biers' tape of Valerii. In reality, Biers secretly switches tapes and keeps the real one. This critical information was not broadcast in the final cut of her documentary distributed to the Fleet, but it was broadcast back to other Cylons on Caprica (by way of two Raiders that attack ''Galactica'' in order to get within transmission range). The Cylons on Caprica (including another copy of Biers and yet another Valerii copy) are surprised yet overjoyed that Helo's Valerii is still alive (they are apparently unaware that she had survived). They are incredibly concerned that her hybrid child survives, saying that it must be protected at all costs ([[Final Cut]]).

When ''Galactica'' experiences mysterious computer failures and system malfunctions from a mutated version of a Cylon virus [[Valley of Darkness|thought eradicated]], Commander Adama orders Helo to show the incarcerated Valerii the strange Cylon code. Valerii identifies it as a very virulent [[Logic bomb]] that will take control of the ship and kill off the crew without her help. Reluctantly, on advice from President Roslin, Commander Adama brings Valerii to [[CIC]], where Valerii cuts her arm open and connects her body to a fiber optic line to communicate with ''Galactica's'' mainframe [[Computers|computer]] and communication channels. With Valerii now with access, she takes into her a portion of the logic bomb code, then instructs Lieutenant [[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]] to wipe the hard drives of the system computers to erase all Cylon virus traces for good. ''Galactica'' is a sitting duck to a massive Cylon fighter force on the outskirts of [[DRADIS]] range while Valerii makes adjustments to the code. She resends the code out on the communication channels to the Cylons, disabling the entire fleet of Cylon fighters. ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).

=== Interrogation and abuse ===
[[image:Pegasus-Thorne_Boomer.jpg|235px|Valerii is beaten and sexually assaulted during an interrogation by Lt. [[Alistair Thorne|Thorne]].|thumb]]
After ''Galactica'' reunites with battlestar ''Pegasus'', Admiral [[Helena Cain]] sends Lieutenant [[Alistair Thorne]] to inspect the incarcerated Valerii. He beats and sexually assaults her while his guards watch and hold her. Fortunately for Valerii, both Helo and Tyrol find out about Thorne and what was done to his previous [[Gina|prisoner]] and arrive in time to stop him. Tyrol accidentally kills Thorne in the process. Both he and Helo are arrested by the ''Pegasus'' guards and taken to Cain's battlestar, where Cain hastily convenes courts-martial for the men (without Adama's knowledge) and sentences Agathon and Tyrol to death.

Commander Adama sends a [[Marines|Marine]] force and his Viper squadrons out to retrieve his men. Valerii and all of the fleet await news on the survival of her "past" and current love as a military standoff between the battlestars begins ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]). Valerii's attempted rape by Thorne results in a hairline fracture in one of her ribs and minor bruising. Still in shock for the incident, Commander Adama (who has reached a détenté with Admiral Cain over Helo's execution) personally appologizes to Valerii over the incident ([[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]). This is also the first time that Adama refers to Valerii as a "her", as opposed to as an "it". Valerii is happily reunited with Helo and Tyrol when the two are released after Adama resumes full command of the Fleet, though she is more enthusiastic to see Helo than Tyrol. ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]).

Weeks later, President Roslin, on her deathbed, recommends that Valerii's fetus be aborted, fearing dire consequences for the Fleet. On hearing this news, Helo is terrified, but Valerii, having cooperated fully to aid the Fleet to save herself and her child and to show that not all Cylons are dangerous, is enraged. Marines sent to inspect her and later to take her to [[sickbay]] for the procedure are forced to restrain the angry Cylon.

At the last minute (spurred by threats from his virtual [[Number Six]]), [[Gaius Baltar]] learns of an astonishing ability of the fetal blood of Valerii's baby: it destroys cancer cells. Taking a small blood sample, he injects it into the dying Laura Roslin. Moments later, her cancer is "gone," according to Dr. [[Cottle]]. The abortion procedure is cancelled. The recovering Roslin visits Valerii in her cell and smiles at the sight of Valerii stroking her belly, just as a human female would ([[Epiphanies]]).

===Birth of her daughter===
[[Image:Sharondownloaded.jpg|170px|thumb|left|Helo comforts Valerii as the doctors start to perform an emergency birth procedure ]]
Valerii begins to bleed; her placenta is detaching. An emergency [[Wikipedia:Cesarean section|birth procedure]] must to be performed by Dr. [[Cottle]] to save both the baby's and Caprica-Valerii's life. Helo and Valerii name the baby girl [[Hera]] and marvel at her as she lay in an incubator. Some time later, believing their baby is out of danger, the baby apparently dies due to her underdeveloped lungs and Dr. Cottle's failure to intubate her in time. In a state of shock, Valerii nearly strangles Cottle in grief before being subdued, and subsequently falls into a deep depression.

However, unbeknownst to Caprica-Valerii, Hera is still alive. In a move to not have to kill the baby but at the same time not have it raised by Valerii or risk having it captured by unseen Cylon agents, Valerii's baby was switched with another dead child. President [[Laura Roslin|Roslin]], Dr. Cottle and Presidental aide [[Tory Foster]] place Valerii's baby in the care of [[Maya]], a foster mother. Maya is told a cover story that disguises Hera's true identity ([[Downloaded]]).

Valerii's depression over losing her child only worsens. Helo convinces her to aid in the rescue of [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] and the other survivors on Caprica, in part to try and draw her out of her depression. Valerii's knowledge of Cylon FTL technology makes the rescue possible by acting as a conduit between the Colonial Raptors and the far more advanced FTL computer salvaged from a Heavy Raider ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]).

On Caprica, Thrace demonstrates a new level of trust for Valerii by throwing her a gun during a firefight with ambushing Centurions. Later, Valerii is as perplexed as everyone else when the Cylons disengage and apparently leave the planet for good. She ''is'' aware, however, that [[Cavil|Brother Cavil]], a man who approaches the group and loudly proclaims the end of the occupation to be a miracle, is a [[Cylon agent]]. She witholds this information from the others. On ''Galactica'', Cavil is exposed by Chief Tyrol (who realizes that a copy of Cavil was already present in the Fleet). Angered by Valerii's obvious withholding of Cavil's nature, Admiral Adama sends Valerii back to the brig along with Cavil. When asked by a distraught Helo why she didn't report this crucial fact, she replies "They killed my baby. Do you think I care about you, or us, or whether or not Adama trusts me anymore?" Valerii withdraws further, shutting Helo out completely. ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

===Officer of the Colonial Fleet===
[[Image:Season 3 - Promo - Epi 1 - 2 - C-Number Eight, Adama, Helo.jpg|235px|Sharon Agathon is sworn-in by Adama as a Colonial Officer.|thumb]]
Four months after ''Galactica's'' and ''Pegasus's'' retreat brings many changes. Sharon Agathon, now married to Karl "Helo" Agathon, is still in her special brig, but Admiral Adama has taken to sitting down to tea and talking in confidence with her. Her cell now has a couch, table, and other amenities ([[Occupation]]). Admiral Adama commissions Agathon into the Colonial Fleet as a Lieutenant (Junior Grade). This could be because he trusts her, because the upcoming rescue mission is much easier with her help, or some combination of both.

Her first mission as an officer has two objectives: to lead an insertion force that will serve as a liaison between the [[New Caprica Resistance|resistance]] and ''Galactica'' during the extraction of the New Caprica population, and to, herself, infiltrate the Cylon defenses and secure the [[launch key]]s to the grounded Colonial Ships. She leads two Raptors in an intra-atmosphere Jump and links up with [[Samuel Anders]] and his squad at the [[Breeders Canyon]]. Their planning is interrupted when an unknown number of [[Cylon Centurion]]s ambush their position ([[Precipice]]). Agathon and her assigned Marines had anticipated enemy contact, so the Marines, from a supporting position, easily neutralize the Cylon attackers.

That night, the combined force of Agathon, her Marines, and Anders' squad return to [[New Caprica City]]. On the day following, Agathon enters the [[New Caprica Detention Center|detention center]] to recover the launch keys. Two human [[New Caprica Police]] guards, not being able to distinguish Sharon from any other Eight unit, let her enter and she interfaces with a data terminal to determine the location of the keys. As she is taking them, a [[Number Three]] enters the room and recognizes her as a defector. The Three tells her that [[Hera]] is still alive, and Agathon responds that Adama would not lie to her, shooting the Three in each leg, and departs. When she hands over the keys to [[Galen Tyrol]], she asks if Hera had truly died and, and he affirms ([[Exodus, Part I]]).

Following the Battle of New Caprica, Sharon is eating in the mess hall with Helo, insisting that they not use the callsign Boomer, as it belonged to [[Sharon Valerii|another Sharon]]. Helo asks the crew for suggestions for a callsign, finally opting for [[Hot Dog]]'s suggestion: Athena, after a number of robotic callsigns are proposed. The gathered personnel's treatment of Sharon during the exchange is good-natured ribbing, implying that she has finally managed to achieve a degree of acceptance ([[Torn]]). Even "Athena" may still be a reference to her nature as a Cylon, if the Colonists share the Greek myth that Pallas Athene sprung from the head of Zeus fully grown without ever having a childhood--much as a Cylon does.

==Notes==
*This Sharon is still referred to as the Caprica copy ('Caprica-Sharon'), even though she is now aboard ''Galactica'', because she was first encountered on Caprica. She is also sometimes called 'Helo-Sharon' by fans (as opposed to 'Tyrol-Sharon') or simply 'Sharon' (as opposed to 'Boomer', a nickname more commonly associated with [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Galactica-Sharon]]). As of the season 3 episode "[[Torn]]" she has been given the callsign Athena by the crew.
*During Season 1, Caprica-Sharon parts her hair on the left side of her head, while "Boomer" Valerii parts her hair to the right.

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Agathon, Sharon]]
[[Category:Characters|Agathon, Sharon]]
[[Category:Characters (RDM)|Agathon, Sharon]]
[[Category:Cylons|Agathon, Sharon)]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)|Agathon, Sharon]]
[[Category:RDM|Agathon, Sharon]]

[[de:Sharon Agathon]]

{{featured article candidate}}

Baltar as Cylon speculation

2006-11-13T19:28:15Z

Rose Immortal:

:''This extended speculation thread appears all but disproven with the airing of the episode "[[Downloaded]]". To go directly to what may be the final arguments toward Baltar as a Cylon, see the last section of this subarticle. This is continuing from [[Cylon agent speculation#Gaius Baltar?|Cylon agent speculation]].''

For '''[[Gaius Baltar]]''' to survive the destruction of Caprica was no small matter, especially considering he was in the wake a nuclear shock wave and that the body of Six that he knew was apparently destroyed in trying to protect him in the events of the [[Miniseries]].

A nuclear blast's shock wave is substantial (not unlike that from a [[Wikipedia:Pyroclastic flow|pyroclastic cloud]]). The shock wave would contain rocks, glass, metal, and other large debris that would bludgeon, pierce and lacerate human tissue with ease and at terrific speeds (at maximum, 1200 KPH, or 745 MPH). Such a debris-filled shock wave would obliterate Baltar's home and easily annihilate Six's body, which at those speeds would provide essentially no protection to Baltar's. (For comparison, note that, despite his superior strength, the head of the first [[Leoben Conoy]] copy encountered was bludgeoned by Commander Adama with a flashlight, and many other Cylon agent copies have been shot or killed as easily as a human.) However, it has to be kept in mind that the blast wave had dissipated greatly by the time it had reached Baltar's house some 26 seconds after the detonation that almost blinded him, probably no more than hurricane force, a wind speed of 74 mph. There are testimonies from Hiroshima and Nagasaki survivors, two Japanese cities that were struck with nuclear bombs at the end of World War II, being in buildings and even in trams quite close to the epicentre and coming out of the ordeal surprisingly unharmed save for a few scratches.

Even if Baltar survived momentarily from Six's protection, either the remains of his home would have collapsed over him, likely trapping him if not killing him, or he and Six's body would also be carried away by the shock wave for some distance.

Six has had two years to gather plenty of Baltar's genetic material. Could the Baltar on ''Galactica'' be now, in fact, a Cylon agent?

==Why a Copy?==

Information from RDM indicate that, at the start of season 2, there are ''eight'' Cylon operatives that appear in the fleet. A Baltar copy would also have made matters very, very easy for the Cylons in their work to infiltrate the Colonial defences and would be easily dropped in place to escape or happen to appear on a ship of the nascent Fleet. Such clones may also explain the 'fake' recording from [[Shelly Godfrey]] of Baltar compromising Colonial computer systems in a latter Season 1 episode. Perhaps it was the Cylons who doctored what was, in reality, a legitimate recording of a Baltar copy.

One notable question would be ''why'' Six has spent so much time talking to Baltar and then thrown herself in front of the blast if she'd intended for him to die? If Baltar was already a Cylon agent, his consciousness from that moment would be thrown into a waking duplicate, already disheveled and scraped, where Baltar would merely think he was blown clear to safety where he could run to escape attacks with other survivors. Also, since Baltar appeared to be key in many Cylon plans, they would want to ensure that Baltar would reach any remaining humans to spy for them, and having only one copy might risk the success of such plans. Further, it is the ''psyche'' of Baltar that the Cylons may treasure most; few others in the Colonies may have the level of intelligence, arrogance, and neurosis that Baltar has that could prove as easily exploitable. The guise of the great Baltar gives the Cylons a huge natural tactical advantage in that he is well known and allowed access to almost any critical battlestar location. Baltar's slick-as-oil personality aids him with better finesse and stronger charisma than any Cylon agent personality yet seen.

==The Baltar-as-Father Argument==

Six has stated her desire to have a child with Baltar. Cylon agent couplings have failed to result in offspring prior to that point ([[The Farm]]). If Baltar and Six were both Cylon agents, it is likely that offspring would either be impossible or at least exceptionally unlikely. This point gives evidence against the Baltar-as-Cylon theory, but Six has repeatedly made it clear that she considers the hybrid human-cylon baby that Sharon is carrying to be "our" (as she puts it) baby. "Our" may in fact be inclusive of all cylons, which may just include Baltar.

In "[[Home, Part II]]", Six indicates that Baltar's and Six's child will be born in the isolation cage built for the [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|''Galactica'' copy of Sharon Valerii]]. The reality turned out different: The Caprica version of Valerii, pregnant by [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], now occupies the cage by the end of that episode, and Six indicates that it is in fact '''Valerii's''' child that will become Baltar's. This gives some weight to the Baltar-as-Cylon theory since Baltar becoming a father by surrogate circumvents the need for him to do so naturally. While Caprica-Valerii shows that a female Cylon agent could conceive, no information is yet available on whether male Cylon agents could sire a child with human females. However, earlier in the first season, in "[[33]]", Six asked Baltar if he wanted to procreate with her, and at this point she may have meant an actual child of Baltar's. "Home, Part II" occurred much later in the timeline, and it is possible that the Cylons and Number Six had to alter their plans during this time. Number Six did mention in "Home, Part II" that she didn't consider Sharon "worthy" of bearing one of "God's new children" (the Cylon agents). Perhaps Sharon was not originally planned to be the first mother of a hybrid baby at all, and Number Six was going to have a child with the (necessarily human) Baltar, but had to shift plans when Boomer became pregnant first.

==Inside Baltar's Head==

Baltar's brain scan in "[[Home, Part II]]" confirms that the virtual Six that only Baltar can see is '''not''' an actual ''artificial'' device in his brain. This leaves a number of possibilities, of which the strongest are:

# Baltar has a device elsewhere in his body. We're not given information on whether ''all'' of Baltar's body was scanned, or just his head.
# A portion of Baltar's body ''is'' the "chip" but fashioned in a way by the Cylons that is medically indistinguishable from a regular body part and may also function normally (say, a pituitary gland)
# Baltar's body is artificial, with his personality (complete with neuroses) placed in a Cylon agent construct. While Baltar's psyche itself may not be that of a Cylon, the addition of the virtual Six component compliments the arrangement for the Cylon's purposes.

Possibility #3 is interesting in that, based on Baltar's own research on the Six copy known as [[Gina]], Baltar's personality and guilt would continue to plague him either in Cylon agent or human form. But, if Baltar were reconstructed as a Cylon, the virtual Six aids Baltar by being, in effect, the conscience and "guardian angel" she claims to be, keeping his neuroses and guilt over the genocide from driving him completely insane--for now.

==But Cylons aren't human clones==

As Cylons aren't copies of humans, this would suggest either of two possibilities for Baltar: first, that he survived the blast and escaped, or second, that Baltar was a Cylon all along, even on Caprica.

The idea of Baltar being originally a Cylon has problems, however. If Baltar were a Cylon, it would be redundant and unnecessary for Number Six to "choose him" for her mission (unless the Cylons preferred Baltar to remain a "sleeper" throughout his mission to give "plausible deniability" in his mind as well as allow him to do what his personality is likely to do). Furthermore, from a story perspective, the idea of Baltar being a Cylon very much goes against the idea of Baltar as a traitor betraying humanity to the Cylons—as well as the idea of Baltar's relationship with Six being a true human/Cylon pairing. It should be noted, however, that Ron D. Moore's "Gaius Baltar" differs significantly from the [[Baltar (TOS)|"Baltar" of the Original Series]]. The Baltar of the Original Series was a true turncoat with megalomaniacal tendencies; Gaius, on the other hand, is not power-hungry but is driven by a strong sense of self, albeit to the exclusion and ignorance of the needs of everyone else.

Gaius is often treated by Six as a human--ultimately the only human who will be allowed to survive by the Cylons. But the human models of Cylon also behave with classically human qualities (not all of them perfect or utopian) and seem to see each other in varying emotions (admiration and contempt are prevalent when Six speaks of the pregnant Caprica Valerii). So, at the least, Gaius is treated with no less respect than any other Cylon agent by his virtual Six. If we assume Gaius is indeed human, Six's interaction with Baltar (given the hostilities of the Cylons) borders on admiration. Although we can't necessarily use Six's emotions as a ''de facto'' gauge of Baltar's genuine humanity, it does lend to the mystery.

The storyline possibilities do change somewhat if Baltar has ''always'' been a Cylon. Note that Baltar has never spoken of his family or other friends (other than President [[Richard Adar|Adar]]), strongly suggesting Baltar has been a "loner." If Baltar's parentage (or offspring--he is rather promiscuous) cannot be confirmed (as has been done with Commander Adama, also on the list of suspects), then the laws of physics (nuclear shock wave damage to human tissue) as well as the laws of procreation (Cylons can't quite procreate as humans do) continue to leave open the possibility that Baltar is model of Cylon, however reduced the odds are now, based on Moore's new information.

=="Downloaded" all but disproves speculation==

The episode "[[Downloaded]]" contains revelations that make it extremely unlikely the Baltar is a Cylon. In dialogues with each other, numerous Cylon characters distinctly refer to Baltar as human. Although it is possible that they might keep the information from Baltar, the nature of the Cylon thought collective would seem to make no sense to keep it a secret to each other. In addition, this episode introduced the unique idea of a Number Six copy with a virtual ''Baltar'' in her head. Through Six, Baltar pushes for the Cylons to be more human; for example, letting [[Samuel Anders]] go free despite his destruction of a building and many other Cylon agents. If Baltar were a Cylon, the events in the episode would make little sense.

With this episode's end, the remaining tenuous thread to the now-remote likelihood of Baltar as a Cylon involves the manner of Baltar and Caprica-Six's relationship as opposed to [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer]] and Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]. If we suppose as a certainty that both Baltar and Tyrol are human, then why does Baltar find himself with a virtual Six after she dies, while Tyrol does not find a virtual Boomer walking about after Boomer's death? Both humans find themselves denying their love, only to recant their claim later. What makes the Baltar-Six arrangement so strikingly different? Why, at all, have these virtual Six and Baltar incarnations appeared in the first place? If Baltar were a Cylon (albeit a model unknown to any other Cylon, which would stretch the plausibility of the nature of their collective thought process per "Downloaded"), would the love between two Cylons cause a "feedback loop" of emotion to spill over between the two Cylons, creating the virtual consciousnesses? Or, assuming that Baltar is fully human, if Cylons revive (medically) a dead human (as Baltar should be, given the destruction of his home and everything in it ''except him''), would such a revival cause the virtual consciousnesses to emerge? In contrast, Tyrol has not died (although he suffers a near-death by Dr. Baltar's hand in "[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]") which may support this weaker, but faintly plausible concept of Baltar's true nature.

=="Torn" renews speculation==

The episode "[[Torn]]" meanwhile contains certain revelations about the nature of the Cylons and some possible hints about Baltar's nature. While guiding Baltar through the interior of the Basetar, Caprica-Six reveals the Cylon process of "projection"; the Cylon's ability to alter their perceptions and create a simulated reality of their choosing. Baltar immediately notices how similar that seems to his own visions of Six and begins to question if he is a Clyon because he can project as well. The question still remains, if he possibly is a Cylon, why do the other Cylons think he is a human?

One possibility is that Baltar is something of a "beta-test" model, a more advanced type of Cylon that is intended to more closely approximate humanity--and may also lack a certain biological design flaw discovered in the Cylons in the episode "[[A Measure of Salvation]]." Still, there has been no on-screen evidence one way or the other, except for the fact mentioned in the next section--so all theories are still potentially in play.

==Update: Interview with the production team provides a new twist...==

*{{spoilli|According to interviews with Grace Park, Dean Stockwell, and Tricia Helfer, the remaining Cylons are so secret that even the seven models known to the audience don't know who the last five are.}}

==Baltar as an "Agent of God"==
Baltar's actions when forced by his virtual Six to repent and worship the Cylon version of [[God]] leaves several significant questions as to the nature of both the virtual Six and Baltar's nature.

In the episode, "[[The Hand of God]]", Baltar makes an educated guess at the specific target to be destroyed on the [[tylium]] refinery without knowing any significant data on the site. Baltar only receives encouragement from his virtual Six to trust in her belief. In "[[Six Degrees of Separation]]," viewers see a stricken and nearly-criminally exposed Baltar repent to the virtual Six just as Lt. Gaeta arrives to confirm his innocence. In the same episode, the virtual Six disappears in anger just as the [[Shelly Godfrey]] copy arrives (with a suggestion that the virtual Six ''knew'' (or summoned) the Godfrey model to arrive. The Godfrey model disappears just as the virtual Six returns as Baltar is repenting.

The episode "[[Downloaded]]" strongly suggests that the virtual copies of [[Caprica Six]] and Baltar that [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations|haunt their opposite interests]] seem to be psychological remnants of the pair's intensive emotional connection. But what if there is more to this than psychology? Episode events surrounding the [[Sacred Scrolls]] and Laura Roslin's quest for the [[Tomb of Athena]] confirm that the Colonials have a spiritual or prophetic element that has guided them to the data that now places them in a true general path to Earth. What forces are driving Baltar beyond his own egotism? What is the nature of the virtual Six and Baltar? Neither Baltar nor Caprica Six know why they appear, and both virtual beings appear to have knowledge beyond that of what the living being they haunt should know. If Baltar is being influenced by the Cylon God (or some cybernetic influence known by neither Cylon or Colonial), there suggests a new thread to the Baltar-as-Cylon speculation that goes beyond the mere creation of a Baltar model. However, in the podcast Ron Moore speaks of the virtual Baltar as simply a hallucination, while interviews and podcasts Moore consistently states that the origin of the virtual Six is supposed to be deliberately vague.

==Baltar as "Psychologically Cylon"==

In a sort of cross between the Agent of God theory and the Cylon model theory, there may be the possibility that Baltar is, post-Caprica attack, psychologically Cylon even if not physically so. He may have, at the time of the attack, had a near-death experience (of the type known to occur with humans--see this Wikipedia article for more on [[Wikipedia:Near-death experience|NDE's]]), and this could have still interfered with the download of Caprica-Six and created the same kind of exchange described elsewhere on this page as a "virtual consciousness". If this is the case, it calls into question the nature of Cylon souls, as it would suggest that they are more similar to the human variety than previously believed. The resulting hallucinations experienced by both Caprica-Six and Baltar therefore would not require Baltar to be physically a Cylon, much as the Agent of God theory does not.

However, what may have been exchanged between the two--and the behavior of Caprica-Six in future episodes will be telling--is their psychological species identity, to some degree. After the attack on Caprica, Baltar is driven to protect Cylon interests by his virtual Six, but Caprica-Six is driven to protect human interests (albeit in a warped way). This renders Baltar at least in part "psychologically Cylon," as his new conscience and instincts drive him (when he isn't thinking of himself!) to protect Cylon interests at the expense of his physical, human identity. Caprica-Six, during "[[Downloaded]]," parallels in takes extremely dangerous risks for the sake of rebel humans. It even becomes possible that the psychological conflict Baltar is experiencing between the forcefully "Cylonized" parts of his conscience and whatever remaining humanity is in him is at the root of his addiction to painkillers...that it becomes a way in which he tries to numb or lessen the conflict or perhaps even take himself out of action without resorting to a suicide that would go against his strong self-preservation instinct.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

A Measure of Salvation

2006-11-13T19:12:16Z

Rose Immortal: /* Analysis */

{{Episode Data
| title= A Measure of Salvation
| image= Amos.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 7
| guests= [[Lucy Lawless]] as [[Number Three]]
| writer= [[Michael Angeli]]
| story=
| director= [[Bill Eagles]]
| production= 307
| rating=
| US airdate= November 10, 2006
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population= 41,420
| prev= [[Torn]]
| next= [[Hero]]
}}

== Overview ==
:''[[Lee Adama|Apollo]] and [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] are dispatched to investigate the derelict baseship. They find the humanoid [[Cylons]] dying from a virulent disease, which inspires inspires [[Lee Adama]] to come up with a desperate plan against their enemy.''

== Summary ==
=== On ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' ===
*A boarding party comprising of [[Raptor]]s and [[Viper Mark VII|Vipers]] investigate the derelict [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]]. Among the boarding party are [[Lee Adama|Apollo]] and [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]].
*Aboard the derelict, [[marines]] explore the corridors, finding the [[Cylon agent|Cylons]] dead. Athena attempts to access the derelict basestar's [[Hybrid]], but is unsuccessful.
*Some "skinjobs" around the control center revive and advise the boarding party of the situation regarding the probe and subsequent infection of the Cylons. One of the infected Cylons, a [[Number Eight]], addresses Athena as "traitor."
*The boarding party and prisoners are en route back to ''Galactica'' when the basestar self-destructs.
*''Galactica'' quarantines the boarding party and prisoners while Dr. [[Cottle]] finds out if the virus affects humans. The human members of the boarding party are cleared while Athena is ordered to stay put, as her blood work hasn't been done. [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] is infuriated, but wants to be notified as soon as her results are available.
*Dr. Cottle's investigation identifies [[Lymphocytic encephalitis|a virus]] that can be treated, but not cured for Cylons. [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]], [[William Adama|Admiral Adama]], Lee Adama, and Helo discuss the idea of taunting the vaccine in exchange for information. A [[Simon]] is brought before them, and informs them that the entire baseship was abandoned, because [[Resurrection (RDM)|resurrection]] would infect the others. He also mentions that [[Gaius Baltar]] provided the information on the path to [[Earth]].
*Aboard ''[[Colonial One]]'', Lee Adama suggests a plan to eliminate the entire Cylon race by executing their prisoners in range of a [[Resurrection Ship]], where the downloaded consciousnesses would infect the remaining Cylons, because according to [[Simon]] the virus carries a bioelectric feedback component that could spread it even through the download process. Helo scoffs at the idea, considering it genocide.
*Aboard ''Galactica'', Athena finds she's immune because of antibodies generated within her body by carrying her daughter, [[Hera]]. Helo tells her of the Fleet's plan, and Athena understands.
*Admiral Adama shows slight dissent about the plan, indicating regulations that forbid him to proceed without presidential order. Despite the ethical ramifications, the President authorizes the biological attack.
*''Galactica'' jumps to a Cylon supply line, and launches Vipers and Raptors to attract the Cylon fleet. In the midst of this, Helo initiates a plan to thwart the execution, unplugging what looks like a standard power connector from an environmental control box.
*The Cylons jump into the area, with Resurrection Ship in tow. Adama orders the execution of the prisoners.
*Lee Adama leads a team to execute the prisoners, but finds that all the prisoners have been killed prior to the Resurrection Ship arriving. Adama orders a recall, and ''Galactica'' escapes without sustaining any major damage.
*Helo converses with Athena about his actions. He maintains that what he did was right, regardless of the consequences.
*Aboard ''Galactica'', Adama reports that the prisoners were suffocated due to a failure in the environmental controls. Roslin is quick to point out one or two might be responsible, but Adama closes the issue. Subsequently, the virus was most likely an accidental exposure, similar to one reported 3000 years ago. Adama points out that they're on the right track to Earth, but Roslin notes that the Cylons are on the right track as well.

=== On a [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]] ===

*Aboard the bastestar, Baltar is being interrogated by Three and Caprica-Six, knowing about the beacon. Three and Caprica-Six imply that Baltar is connected to the virus and to Galactica. Baltar attempts to reconcile, only to be confronted by Centurions.
*In his "projection", his mental Six tells him to relax. Meanwhile, his body is being subjected to torture; Caprica Six is visibly disturbed by the torture and backs away.
*Baltar's torture continues as Three continues to interrogate Baltar regarding his supposed involvement with the virus. In his mind, he attemps to avert the pain by making love to his mental Six. Despite extreme pain, Baltar endures.

== Questions ==

* If [[Adama]] had brought the beacon aboard, what kind of information would it have given them about the location of Earth?
* Will [[Caprica-Six]] continue to stand by and permit Baltar's mistreatment at their hands?
* Where is Caprica-Six's own internal Baltar in all of this?
* Of the Cylons, which type told the basestar to self-destruct: The [[Hybrid]] or a [[Cylon agent]]? Considering her odd look after the destruction, might it have been [[Athena]]?
* What kind of new start are the [[Cylon]]s planning for [[Earth]]? Just a new home planet, an attempt at human Cylon relations not tainted by the destruction of the Twelve Colonies, or something else?
* Why did an entire Cylon fleet (including a [[Resurrection Ship]]) jump to the encounter with ''Galactica''? Why was the [[Resurrection Ship]] not left behind somewhere else, as it was done in previous battles?
* Is D'anna in love with Baltar?
* Why is [[Gaeta]] so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D'Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?
* Why does [[Simon]] so quickly claim science can not provide a solution to the infection?
* Why wasn't the execution squad in place and waiting with the prisoners so the plan could have been implemented in a timely manner?
* Since the plan was to execute the prisoners then jump away, why wasn't the jump drive already spun up and ready?
* The environmental controls seem to have been circumvented by [[Karl Agathon]] pulling a single plug. In a combat ship aren't there cascading fail safe systems to protect against such catastrophic failures from simple system malfunctions?
* In his discussion with [[Laura Roslin]] at the end of the episode, [[Admiral Adama]] is aware that sabotage was involved in the death of the Cylon prisoners, yet he states there will be no investigation. While he might be relieved that the plan wasn't carried out, wouldn't he be seriously concerned and want to aggressively pursue this matter?
*[[Baltar]] calls the [[Number Three]] torturing him "D'anna". Is she, or at least does Baltar believe she is, the same number 3 that was previously masquerading in the fleet as a reporter?
*Has Starbuck regained full flight status, because she tried to pull her life together at the end of "[[Torn]]", or does she participate in the battle due to a pressing need for pilots?
*Will there be any consequences of the sabotage for Helo and Athena from other crewmembers who may figure they are behind said sabotage? How will this affect Helo's reputation as a Cylon-lover or his credibility as XO.
*Since the Cylon prisoners died after the jump, did they download and spread the infection despite Helo's sabotage? Raiders generally operate within range of a Resurrection Ship and ''Galactica'' encountered two Raiders immediately after the jump.

== Analysis ==

*The Cylons could have cured themselves of this plague relatively quickly, if ''Galactica'' had succeeded in infecting them. It was quickly noted in the episode that Sharon was immune herself because fetal cells from [[Hera]] created effective antibodies against the virus. Hera is immune to the virus because she is a hybrid Human-Cylon. Now that she is in custody of the Cylons, Baltar could have utilized her immunity, as he previously did on Roslin, as capital to further his self-preservation amongst them.
**It can be assumed that executing the captured Cylons will send them back to the Resurrection ship, thus infecting the Cylon network. However, the Human-Cylon hybrid has no extra copies on the Resurrection ship to transfer into, thus the antibodes will not be spread into the Cylon Network.
*The wider implications of such an event could have been religiously meaningful to the Cylons. Cylons have time and again shown religious deference by sometimes overlooking rational explanations. By saving the Cylon race Hera could have been elevated to messiah status, if her very creation has not already ordained her as one to the Cylons because their God proclaimed her creation.
**The presence of Hera is profound enough to the Cylons, which could be preventing them from seeing that Hera could be used as a tool.
*There is a fundamental flaw in the plan [[Lee Adama|Apollo]] develops: Even if the virus successfully infects the [[Resurrection Ship]], the other Cylons would isolate that individual ship, thus preventing a widespread epidemic. The resulting impact on the Cylon fleet would be no greater than previous destruction of the Resurrection Ship in "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]".
**Apollo's plan is based on an account of the Cylon analysis of the threat; he could simply assume they are correct and that the virus can spread like wildfire from one Resurrection Ship to another.
**Also, by infecting a greater mass of ships, Galactica could board the ships, take much needed resources and more infected Cylons for further use as biological weapons.
*The science of the virus is somewhat questionable. While the biological aspect is sound, the existence of a "bioelectrical feedback component" appears to be technobabble. It would be impossible for a biological virus (i.e. a physical pathogen) to be transmitted by download to the Resurrection Ship. Such a feedback - scrambling the brainwave patterns - could disrupt the download process, but it is unclear how it could spread the virus itself on the other side.
**From Dr. Cottle's dialogue, it would appear that the problem lies with how the Cylons' immune systems reacts with the virus, more than the virus itself. If this is the case, it is likely that the immune system's reaction would carry though the download and possibly be passed to other Cylons througout the network.
*Dr. Cottle explains that Cylons carry antibodies that break down the RNA of his proposed vaccine. However antibodies have no degradative functionality, and only prime recognised pathogens for phagocytosis, though he may have simplified the explination. But as vaccines are developed from the pathonogenic organism (or a close relative) it would be impossible for the Cylons to carry antibodies specific for the vaccine RNA (or for the products it encodes) or otherwise they would be immune to the pathonogenic virus itself.
*Adama's reaction to the premature death of the prisoners is yet another example of what are simultaneously his greatest virtues and most glaring flaws - his dedication to those under his command, and his need to keep his conscience clear.
*In this episode, [[Raptors]] are shown loaded to the teeth with weapons systems. In the past ([[Miniseries]], [[The Hand of God]]), Raptors have rarely been depicted in actual combat, preferring instead to hang back while coordinating battlefield logistics. They have been shown armed in a few prior episodes ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]], [[Fragged]]), but this is by far their most prominent combat role to date. The Raptors are using the external missile pods and cannons introduced in "Exodus, Part [[Exodus, Part I|I]] & [[Exodus, Part II|II]]" and engage in the same maneuver used to launch the decoy drones during the Battle of New Caprica.
*The genetic pool the Cylons were created from predates the human immunity to the plague from just a couple hundred years ago, yet the Cylons, even as a class of machines, are only 40 to 60 years old. This indicates another, non-Colonial, source for the DNA.
*The genetic pool need not be so old. Because humans had been completely immune to this virus for hundreds of years, the Cylons may have simply overlooked it while creating their biological models.
*It seems this virus could also be a fairly reliable (although not conclusive) litmus test to for Cylons in the Colonial Fleet.
*It seems reasonable to assume that if Baltar is not infected with the virus, he is not a Cylon, likewise for all members of the ''Galactica'' crew who boarded the baseship.
**Baltar was in an isolation suit the entire time he was on the basestar. Using standard biohazard procedures, he would have remained in the suit which would have been disinfected from the outside before he took it off.
**Baltar could also be a different, more advanced model of Cylon in the beta-testing stage--a model that is immune (hence the secrecy of the other models).

== Notes ==
*[[Survivor count|Fleet population]] is 41,420. Barring any births, there is an unaccounted loss of at least two since "[[Torn]]".
*The story behind the Lion Nebula beacon and the virus may have been inspired by the lunar lander [[wikipedia:Surveyor 3|Surveyor 3]]. Before launching in 1967, its camera was accidentally contaminated by a common bacterium. When the camera was recovered by Apollo 12 astronauts, the microbes returned to life, having survived two and a half years of vacuum, radiation, and temperature extremes.
*This is the first episode in which [[Saul Tigh]] has not appeared, more than likely due to his promise to William Adama at the end of "Torn" after Adama's confrontation with both Tigh and Kara Thrace. Currently, the only characters to have appeared in every episode are [[Laura Roslin]] and [[William Adama]].
*Helo has been promoted to the rank of Captain, as evident in both dialogue and costuming.
*Starbuck appears to have returned to flight status following her decision to pull herself together at the end of "[[Torn]]".
*Dr. Cottle identifies the disease as [[Lymphocytic encephalitis]], however [[w:encephalitis|encephalitis]] is a condition (swelling of the brain) that can be caused by a pathogen, not a pathogen itself. More likely the pathogen is [[wikipedia:Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus|Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus]].

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

== Official Statements ==

== Guest Stars ==

* [[Aaron Douglas]] as Chief Petty Officer [[Galen Tyrol]]
* [[Tahmoh Penikett]] as Captain [[Karl Agathon|Karl "Helo" Agathon]]
* [[Alessandro Juliani]] as Lt. [[Felix Gaeta]]
* [[Kandyse McClure]] as [[Anastasia Dualla]]
* [[Rick Worthy]] as [[Simon]]
* [[Callum Keith Rennie]] as [[Leoben Conoy]]
* [[Donnelly Rhodes]] as Doctor [[Cottle]]
* [[Matthew Bennett]] as [[Number Five]]
* [[Bodie Olmos]] as Lt. [[Brendan Constanza|Brendan "Hot Dog" Constanza]]
* [[Leah Cairns]] as Lt. [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
* [[imdb:nm0669826|Eileen Pedde]] as Sgt. [[Mathias]]
* [[imdb:nm0461101|Tiffany Lyndall-Knight]] as [[Hybrid]] (credited)

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:Episodes written by Michael Angeli]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Baltar as Cylon speculation

2006-10-31T22:31:02Z

Rose Immortal: /* Baltar as "Psychologically Cylon" */

:''This extended speculation thread appears all but disproven with the airing of the episode "[[Downloaded]]". To go directly to what may be the final arguments toward Baltar as a Cylon, see the last section of this subarticle. This is continuing from [[Cylon agent speculation#Gaius Baltar?|Cylon agent speculation]].''

For '''[[Gaius Baltar]]''' to survive the destruction of Caprica was no small matter, especially considering he was in the wake a nuclear shock wave and that the body of Six that he knew was apparently destroyed in trying to protect him in the events of the [[Miniseries]].

A nuclear blast's shock wave is substantial (not unlike that from a [[Wikipedia:Pyroclastic flow|pyroclastic cloud]]). The shock wave would contain rocks, glass, metal, and other large debris that would bludgeon, pierce and lacerate human tissue with ease and at terrific speeds (at maximum, 1200 KPH, or 745 MPH). Such a debris-filled shock wave would obliterate Baltar's home and easily annihilate Six's body, which at those speeds would provide essentially no protection to Baltar's. (For comparison, note that, despite his superior strength, the head of the first [[Leoben Conoy]] copy encountered was bludgeoned by Commander Adama with a flashlight, and many other Cylon agent copies have been shot or killed as easily as a human.) However, it has to be kept in mind that the blast wave had dissipated greatly by the time it had reached Baltar's house some 26 seconds after the detonation that almost blinded him, probably no more than hurricane force, a wind speed of 74 mph. There are testimonies from Hiroshima and Nagasaki survivors, two Japanese cities that were struck with nuclear bombs at the end of World War II, being in buildings and even in trams quite close to the epicentre and coming out of the ordeal surprisingly unharmed save for a few scratches.

Even if Baltar survived momentarily from Six's protection, either the remains of his home would have collapsed over him, likely trapping him if not killing him, or he and Six's body would also be carried away by the shock wave for some distance.

Six has had two years to gather plenty of Baltar's genetic material. Could the Baltar on ''Galactica'' be now, in fact, a Cylon agent?

==Why a Copy?==

Information from RDM indicate that, at the start of season 2, there are ''eight'' Cylon operatives that appear in the fleet. A Baltar copy would also have made matters very, very easy for the Cylons in their work to infiltrate the Colonial defences and would be easily dropped in place to escape or happen to appear on a ship of the nascent Fleet. Such clones may also explain the 'fake' recording from [[Shelly Godfrey]] of Baltar compromising Colonial computer systems in a latter Season 1 episode. Perhaps it was the Cylons who doctored what was, in reality, a legitimate recording of a Baltar copy.

One notable question would be ''why'' Six has spent so much time talking to Baltar and then thrown herself in front of the blast if she'd intended for him to die? If Baltar was already a Cylon agent, his consciousness from that moment would be thrown into a waking duplicate, already disheveled and scraped, where Baltar would merely think he was blown clear to safety where he could run to escape attacks with other survivors. Also, since Baltar appeared to be key in many Cylon plans, they would want to ensure that Baltar would reach any remaining humans to spy for them, and having only one copy might risk the success of such plans. Further, it is the ''psyche'' of Baltar that the Cylons may treasure most; few others in the Colonies may have the level of intelligence, arrogance, and neurosis that Baltar has that could prove as easily exploitable. The guise of the great Baltar gives the Cylons a huge natural tactical advantage in that he is well known and allowed access to almost any critical battlestar location. Baltar's slick-as-oil personality aids him with better finesse and stronger charisma than any Cylon agent personality yet seen.

==The Baltar-as-Father Argument==

Six has stated her desire to have a child with Baltar. Cylon agent couplings have failed to result in offspring prior to that point ([[The Farm]]). If Baltar and Six were both Cylon agents, it is likely that offspring would either be impossible or at least exceptionally unlikely. This point gives evidence against the Baltar-as-Cylon theory, but Six has repeatedly made it clear that she considers the hybrid human-cylon baby that Sharon is carrying to be "our" (as she puts it) baby. "Our" may in fact be inclusive of all cylons, which may just include Baltar.

In "[[Home, Part II]]", Six indicates that Baltar's and Six's child will be born in the isolation cage built for the [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|''Galactica'' copy of Sharon Valerii]]. The reality turned out different: The Caprica version of Valerii, pregnant by [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], now occupies the cage by the end of that episode, and Six indicates that it is in fact '''Valerii's''' child that will become Baltar's. This gives some weight to the Baltar-as-Cylon theory since Baltar becoming a father by surrogate circumvents the need for him to do so naturally. While Caprica-Valerii shows that a female Cylon agent could conceive, no information is yet available on whether male Cylon agents could sire a child with human females. However, earlier in the first season, in "[[33]]", Six asked Baltar if he wanted to procreate with her, and at this point she may have meant an actual child of Baltar's. "Home, Part II" occurred much later in the timeline, and it is possible that the Cylons and Number Six had to alter their plans during this time. Number Six did mention in "Home, Part II" that she didn't consider Sharon "worthy" of bearing one of "God's new children" (the Cylon agents). Perhaps Sharon was not originally planned to be the first mother of a hybrid baby at all, and Number Six was going to have a child with the (necessarily human) Baltar, but had to shift plans when Boomer became pregnant first.

==Inside Baltar's Head==

Baltar's brain scan in "[[Home, Part II]]" confirms that the virtual Six that only Baltar can see is '''not''' an actual ''artificial'' device in his brain. This leaves a number of possibilities, of which the strongest are:

# Baltar has a device elsewhere in his body. We're not given information on whether ''all'' of Baltar's body was scanned, or just his head.
# A portion of Baltar's body ''is'' the "chip" but fashioned in a way by the Cylons that is medically indistinguishable from a regular body part and may also function normally (say, a pituitary gland)
# Baltar's body is artificial, with his personality (complete with neuroses) placed in a Cylon agent construct. While Baltar's psyche itself may not be that of a Cylon, the addition of the virtual Six component compliments the arrangement for the Cylon's purposes.

Possibility #3 is interesting in that, based on Baltar's own research on the Six copy known as [[Gina]], Baltar's personality and guilt would continue to plague him either in Cylon agent or human form. But, if Baltar were reconstructed as a Cylon, the virtual Six aids Baltar by being, in effect, the conscience and "guardian angel" she claims to be, keeping his neuroses and guilt over the genocide from driving him completely insane--for now.

==But Cylons aren't human clones==

As Cylons aren't copies of humans, this would suggest either of two possibilities for Baltar: first, that he survived the blast and escaped, or second, that Baltar was a Cylon all along, even on Caprica.

The idea of Baltar being originally a Cylon has problems, however. If Baltar were a Cylon, it would be redundant and unnecessary for Number Six to "choose him" for her mission (unless the Cylons preferred Baltar to remain a "sleeper" throughout his mission to give "plausible deniability" in his mind as well as allow him to do what his personality is likely to do). Furthermore, from a story perspective, the idea of Baltar being a Cylon very much goes against the idea of Baltar as a traitor betraying humanity to the Cylons—as well as the idea of Baltar's relationship with Six being a true human/Cylon pairing. It should be noted, however, that Ron D. Moore's "Gaius Baltar" differs significantly from the [[Baltar (TOS)|"Baltar" of the Original Series]]. The Baltar of the Original Series was a true turncoat with megalomaniacal tendencies; Gaius, on the other hand, is not power-hungry but is driven by a strong sense of self, albeit to the exclusion and ignorance of the needs of everyone else.

Gaius is often treated by Six as a human--ultimately the only human who will be allowed to survive by the Cylons. But the human models of Cylon also behave with classically human qualities (not all of them perfect or utopian) and seem to see each other in varying emotions (admiration and contempt are prevalent when Six speaks of the pregnant Caprica Valerii). So, at the least, Gaius is treated with no less respect than any other Cylon agent by his virtual Six. If we assume Gaius is indeed human, Six's interaction with Baltar (given the hostilities of the Cylons) borders on admiration. Although we can't necessarily use Six's emotions as a ''de facto'' gauge of Baltar's genuine humanity, it does lend to the mystery.

The storyline possibilities do change somewhat if Baltar has ''always'' been a Cylon. Note that Baltar has never spoken of his family or other friends (other than President [[Richard Adar|Adar]]), strongly suggesting Baltar has been a "loner." If Baltar's parentage (or offspring--he is rather promiscuous) cannot be confirmed (as has been done with Commander Adama, also on the list of suspects), then the laws of physics (nuclear shock wave damage to human tissue) as well as the laws of procreation (Cylons can't quite procreate as humans do) continue to leave open the possibility that Baltar is model of Cylon, however reduced the odds are now, based on Moore's new information.

=="Downloaded" all but disproves speculation==

The episode "[[Downloaded]]" contains revelations that make it extremely unlikely the Baltar is a Cylon. In dialogues with each other, numerous Cylon characters distinctly refer to Baltar as human. Although it is possible that they might keep the information from Baltar, the nature of the Cylon thought collective would seem to make no sense to keep it a secret to each other. In addition, this episode introduced the unique idea of a Number Six copy with a virtual ''Baltar'' in her head. Through Six, Baltar pushes for the Cylons to be more human; for example, letting [[Samuel Anders]] go free despite his destruction of a building and many other Cylon agents. If Baltar were a Cylon, the events in the episode would make little sense.

With this episode's end, the remaining tenuous thread to the now-remote likelihood of Baltar as a Cylon involves the manner of Baltar and Caprica-Six's relationship as opposed to [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer]] and Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]. If we suppose as a certainty that both Baltar and Tyrol are human, then why does Baltar find himself with a virtual Six after she dies, while Tyrol does not find a virtual Boomer walking about after Boomer's death? Both humans find themselves denying their love, only to recant their claim later. What makes the Baltar-Six arrangement so strikingly different? Why, at all, have these virtual Six and Baltar incarnations appeared in the first place? If Baltar were a Cylon (albeit a model unknown to any other Cylon, which would stretch the plausibility of the nature of their collective thought process per "Downloaded"), would the love between two Cylons cause a "feedback loop" of emotion to spill over between the two Cylons, creating the virtual consciousnesses? Or, assuming that Baltar is fully human, if Cylons revive (medically) a dead human (as Baltar should be, given the destruction of his home and everything in it ''except him''), would such a revival cause the virtual consciousnesses to emerge? In contrast, Tyrol has not died (although he suffers a near-death by Dr. Baltar's hand in "[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]") which may support this weaker, but faintly plausible concept of Baltar's true nature.

==Update: Interview with the production team provides a new twist...==

*{{spoilli|According to interviews with Grace Park, Dean Stockwell, and Tricia Helfer, the remaining Cylons are so secret that even the seven models known to the audience don't know who the last five are.}}

==Baltar as an "Agent of God"==
Baltar's actions when forced by his virtual Six to repent and worship the Cylon version of [[God]] leaves several significant questions as to the nature of both the virtual Six and Baltar's nature.

In the episode, "[[The Hand of God]]", Baltar makes an educated guess at the specific target to be destroyed on the [[tylium]] refinery without knowing any significant data on the site. Baltar only receives encouragement from his virtual Six to trust in her belief. In "[[Six Degrees of Separation]]," viewers see a stricken and nearly-criminally exposed Baltar repent to the virtual Six just as Lt. Gaeta arrives to confirm his innocence. In the same episode, the virtual Six disappears in anger just as the [[Shelly Godfrey]] copy arrives (with a suggestion that the virtual Six ''knew'' (or summoned) the Godfrey model to arrive. The Godfrey model disappears just as the virtual Six returns as Baltar is repenting.

The episode "[[Downloaded]]" strongly suggests that the virtual copies of [[Caprica Six]] and Baltar that [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations|haunt their opposite interests]] seem to be psychological remnants of the pair's intensive emotional connection. But what if there is more to this than psychology? Episode events surrounding the [[Sacred Scrolls]] and Laura Roslin's quest for the [[Tomb of Athena]] confirm that the Colonials have a spiritual or prophetic element that has guided them to the data that now places them in a true general path to Earth. What forces are driving Baltar beyond his own egotism? What is the nature of the virtual Six and Baltar? Neither Baltar nor Caprica Six know why they appear, and both virtual beings appear to have knowledge beyond that of what the living being they haunt should know. If Baltar is being influenced by the Cylon God (or some cybernetic influence known by neither Cylon or Colonial), there suggests a new thread to the Baltar-as-Cylon speculation that goes beyond the mere creation of a Baltar model. However, in the podcast Ron Moore speaks of the virtual Baltar as simply a hallucination, while interviews and podcasts Moore consistently states that the origin of the virtual Six is supposed to be deliberately vague.

==Baltar as "Psychologically Cylon"==

In a sort of cross between the Agent of God theory and the Cylon model theory, there may be the possibility that Baltar is, post-Caprica attack, psychologically Cylon even if not physically so. He may have, at the time of the attack, had a near-death experience (of the type known to occur with humans--see this Wikipedia article for more on [[Wikipedia:Near-death experience|NDE's]]), and this could have still interfered with the download of Caprica-Six and created the same kind of exchange described elsewhere on this page as a "virtual consciousness". If this is the case, it calls into question the nature of Cylon souls, as it would suggest that they are more similar to the human variety than previously believed. The resulting hallucinations experienced by both Caprica-Six and Baltar therefore would not require Baltar to be physically a Cylon, much as the Agent of God theory does not.

However, what may have been exchanged between the two--and the behavior of Caprica-Six in future episodes will be telling--is their psychological species identity, to some degree. After the attack on Caprica, Baltar is driven to protect Cylon interests by his virtual Six, but Caprica-Six is driven to protect human interests (albeit in a warped way). This renders Baltar at least in part "psychologically Cylon," as his new conscience and instincts drive him (when he isn't thinking of himself!) to protect Cylon interests at the expense of his physical, human identity. Caprica-Six, during "[[Downloaded]]," parallels in takes extremely dangerous risks for the sake of rebel humans. It even becomes possible that the psychological conflict Baltar is experiencing between the forcefully "Cylonized" parts of his conscience and whatever remaining humanity is in him is at the root of his addiction to painkillers...that it becomes a way in which he tries to numb or lessen the conflict or perhaps even take himself out of action without resorting to a suicide that would go against his strong self-preservation instinct.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Baltar as Cylon speculation

2006-10-31T22:24:45Z

Rose Immortal: /* Baltar as "Psychologically Cylon" */

:''This extended speculation thread appears all but disproven with the airing of the episode "[[Downloaded]]". To go directly to what may be the final arguments toward Baltar as a Cylon, see the last section of this subarticle. This is continuing from [[Cylon agent speculation#Gaius Baltar?|Cylon agent speculation]].''

For '''[[Gaius Baltar]]''' to survive the destruction of Caprica was no small matter, especially considering he was in the wake a nuclear shock wave and that the body of Six that he knew was apparently destroyed in trying to protect him in the events of the [[Miniseries]].

A nuclear blast's shock wave is substantial (not unlike that from a [[Wikipedia:Pyroclastic flow|pyroclastic cloud]]). The shock wave would contain rocks, glass, metal, and other large debris that would bludgeon, pierce and lacerate human tissue with ease and at terrific speeds (at maximum, 1200 KPH, or 745 MPH). Such a debris-filled shock wave would obliterate Baltar's home and easily annihilate Six's body, which at those speeds would provide essentially no protection to Baltar's. (For comparison, note that, despite his superior strength, the head of the first [[Leoben Conoy]] copy encountered was bludgeoned by Commander Adama with a flashlight, and many other Cylon agent copies have been shot or killed as easily as a human.) However, it has to be kept in mind that the blast wave had dissipated greatly by the time it had reached Baltar's house some 26 seconds after the detonation that almost blinded him, probably no more than hurricane force, a wind speed of 74 mph. There are testimonies from Hiroshima and Nagasaki survivors, two Japanese cities that were struck with nuclear bombs at the end of World War II, being in buildings and even in trams quite close to the epicentre and coming out of the ordeal surprisingly unharmed save for a few scratches.

Even if Baltar survived momentarily from Six's protection, either the remains of his home would have collapsed over him, likely trapping him if not killing him, or he and Six's body would also be carried away by the shock wave for some distance.

Six has had two years to gather plenty of Baltar's genetic material. Could the Baltar on ''Galactica'' be now, in fact, a Cylon agent?

==Why a Copy?==

Information from RDM indicate that, at the start of season 2, there are ''eight'' Cylon operatives that appear in the fleet. A Baltar copy would also have made matters very, very easy for the Cylons in their work to infiltrate the Colonial defences and would be easily dropped in place to escape or happen to appear on a ship of the nascent Fleet. Such clones may also explain the 'fake' recording from [[Shelly Godfrey]] of Baltar compromising Colonial computer systems in a latter Season 1 episode. Perhaps it was the Cylons who doctored what was, in reality, a legitimate recording of a Baltar copy.

One notable question would be ''why'' Six has spent so much time talking to Baltar and then thrown herself in front of the blast if she'd intended for him to die? If Baltar was already a Cylon agent, his consciousness from that moment would be thrown into a waking duplicate, already disheveled and scraped, where Baltar would merely think he was blown clear to safety where he could run to escape attacks with other survivors. Also, since Baltar appeared to be key in many Cylon plans, they would want to ensure that Baltar would reach any remaining humans to spy for them, and having only one copy might risk the success of such plans. Further, it is the ''psyche'' of Baltar that the Cylons may treasure most; few others in the Colonies may have the level of intelligence, arrogance, and neurosis that Baltar has that could prove as easily exploitable. The guise of the great Baltar gives the Cylons a huge natural tactical advantage in that he is well known and allowed access to almost any critical battlestar location. Baltar's slick-as-oil personality aids him with better finesse and stronger charisma than any Cylon agent personality yet seen.

==The Baltar-as-Father Argument==

Six has stated her desire to have a child with Baltar. Cylon agent couplings have failed to result in offspring prior to that point ([[The Farm]]). If Baltar and Six were both Cylon agents, it is likely that offspring would either be impossible or at least exceptionally unlikely. This point gives evidence against the Baltar-as-Cylon theory, but Six has repeatedly made it clear that she considers the hybrid human-cylon baby that Sharon is carrying to be "our" (as she puts it) baby. "Our" may in fact be inclusive of all cylons, which may just include Baltar.

In "[[Home, Part II]]", Six indicates that Baltar's and Six's child will be born in the isolation cage built for the [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|''Galactica'' copy of Sharon Valerii]]. The reality turned out different: The Caprica version of Valerii, pregnant by [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], now occupies the cage by the end of that episode, and Six indicates that it is in fact '''Valerii's''' child that will become Baltar's. This gives some weight to the Baltar-as-Cylon theory since Baltar becoming a father by surrogate circumvents the need for him to do so naturally. While Caprica-Valerii shows that a female Cylon agent could conceive, no information is yet available on whether male Cylon agents could sire a child with human females. However, earlier in the first season, in "[[33]]", Six asked Baltar if he wanted to procreate with her, and at this point she may have meant an actual child of Baltar's. "Home, Part II" occurred much later in the timeline, and it is possible that the Cylons and Number Six had to alter their plans during this time. Number Six did mention in "Home, Part II" that she didn't consider Sharon "worthy" of bearing one of "God's new children" (the Cylon agents). Perhaps Sharon was not originally planned to be the first mother of a hybrid baby at all, and Number Six was going to have a child with the (necessarily human) Baltar, but had to shift plans when Boomer became pregnant first.

==Inside Baltar's Head==

Baltar's brain scan in "[[Home, Part II]]" confirms that the virtual Six that only Baltar can see is '''not''' an actual ''artificial'' device in his brain. This leaves a number of possibilities, of which the strongest are:

# Baltar has a device elsewhere in his body. We're not given information on whether ''all'' of Baltar's body was scanned, or just his head.
# A portion of Baltar's body ''is'' the "chip" but fashioned in a way by the Cylons that is medically indistinguishable from a regular body part and may also function normally (say, a pituitary gland)
# Baltar's body is artificial, with his personality (complete with neuroses) placed in a Cylon agent construct. While Baltar's psyche itself may not be that of a Cylon, the addition of the virtual Six component compliments the arrangement for the Cylon's purposes.

Possibility #3 is interesting in that, based on Baltar's own research on the Six copy known as [[Gina]], Baltar's personality and guilt would continue to plague him either in Cylon agent or human form. But, if Baltar were reconstructed as a Cylon, the virtual Six aids Baltar by being, in effect, the conscience and "guardian angel" she claims to be, keeping his neuroses and guilt over the genocide from driving him completely insane--for now.

==But Cylons aren't human clones==

As Cylons aren't copies of humans, this would suggest either of two possibilities for Baltar: first, that he survived the blast and escaped, or second, that Baltar was a Cylon all along, even on Caprica.

The idea of Baltar being originally a Cylon has problems, however. If Baltar were a Cylon, it would be redundant and unnecessary for Number Six to "choose him" for her mission (unless the Cylons preferred Baltar to remain a "sleeper" throughout his mission to give "plausible deniability" in his mind as well as allow him to do what his personality is likely to do). Furthermore, from a story perspective, the idea of Baltar being a Cylon very much goes against the idea of Baltar as a traitor betraying humanity to the Cylons—as well as the idea of Baltar's relationship with Six being a true human/Cylon pairing. It should be noted, however, that Ron D. Moore's "Gaius Baltar" differs significantly from the [[Baltar (TOS)|"Baltar" of the Original Series]]. The Baltar of the Original Series was a true turncoat with megalomaniacal tendencies; Gaius, on the other hand, is not power-hungry but is driven by a strong sense of self, albeit to the exclusion and ignorance of the needs of everyone else.

Gaius is often treated by Six as a human--ultimately the only human who will be allowed to survive by the Cylons. But the human models of Cylon also behave with classically human qualities (not all of them perfect or utopian) and seem to see each other in varying emotions (admiration and contempt are prevalent when Six speaks of the pregnant Caprica Valerii). So, at the least, Gaius is treated with no less respect than any other Cylon agent by his virtual Six. If we assume Gaius is indeed human, Six's interaction with Baltar (given the hostilities of the Cylons) borders on admiration. Although we can't necessarily use Six's emotions as a ''de facto'' gauge of Baltar's genuine humanity, it does lend to the mystery.

The storyline possibilities do change somewhat if Baltar has ''always'' been a Cylon. Note that Baltar has never spoken of his family or other friends (other than President [[Richard Adar|Adar]]), strongly suggesting Baltar has been a "loner." If Baltar's parentage (or offspring--he is rather promiscuous) cannot be confirmed (as has been done with Commander Adama, also on the list of suspects), then the laws of physics (nuclear shock wave damage to human tissue) as well as the laws of procreation (Cylons can't quite procreate as humans do) continue to leave open the possibility that Baltar is model of Cylon, however reduced the odds are now, based on Moore's new information.

=="Downloaded" all but disproves speculation==

The episode "[[Downloaded]]" contains revelations that make it extremely unlikely the Baltar is a Cylon. In dialogues with each other, numerous Cylon characters distinctly refer to Baltar as human. Although it is possible that they might keep the information from Baltar, the nature of the Cylon thought collective would seem to make no sense to keep it a secret to each other. In addition, this episode introduced the unique idea of a Number Six copy with a virtual ''Baltar'' in her head. Through Six, Baltar pushes for the Cylons to be more human; for example, letting [[Samuel Anders]] go free despite his destruction of a building and many other Cylon agents. If Baltar were a Cylon, the events in the episode would make little sense.

With this episode's end, the remaining tenuous thread to the now-remote likelihood of Baltar as a Cylon involves the manner of Baltar and Caprica-Six's relationship as opposed to [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer]] and Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]. If we suppose as a certainty that both Baltar and Tyrol are human, then why does Baltar find himself with a virtual Six after she dies, while Tyrol does not find a virtual Boomer walking about after Boomer's death? Both humans find themselves denying their love, only to recant their claim later. What makes the Baltar-Six arrangement so strikingly different? Why, at all, have these virtual Six and Baltar incarnations appeared in the first place? If Baltar were a Cylon (albeit a model unknown to any other Cylon, which would stretch the plausibility of the nature of their collective thought process per "Downloaded"), would the love between two Cylons cause a "feedback loop" of emotion to spill over between the two Cylons, creating the virtual consciousnesses? Or, assuming that Baltar is fully human, if Cylons revive (medically) a dead human (as Baltar should be, given the destruction of his home and everything in it ''except him''), would such a revival cause the virtual consciousnesses to emerge? In contrast, Tyrol has not died (although he suffers a near-death by Dr. Baltar's hand in "[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]") which may support this weaker, but faintly plausible concept of Baltar's true nature.

==Update: Interview with the production team provides a new twist...==

*{{spoilli|According to interviews with Grace Park, Dean Stockwell, and Tricia Helfer, the remaining Cylons are so secret that even the seven models known to the audience don't know who the last five are.}}

==Baltar as an "Agent of God"==
Baltar's actions when forced by his virtual Six to repent and worship the Cylon version of [[God]] leaves several significant questions as to the nature of both the virtual Six and Baltar's nature.

In the episode, "[[The Hand of God]]", Baltar makes an educated guess at the specific target to be destroyed on the [[tylium]] refinery without knowing any significant data on the site. Baltar only receives encouragement from his virtual Six to trust in her belief. In "[[Six Degrees of Separation]]," viewers see a stricken and nearly-criminally exposed Baltar repent to the virtual Six just as Lt. Gaeta arrives to confirm his innocence. In the same episode, the virtual Six disappears in anger just as the [[Shelly Godfrey]] copy arrives (with a suggestion that the virtual Six ''knew'' (or summoned) the Godfrey model to arrive. The Godfrey model disappears just as the virtual Six returns as Baltar is repenting.

The episode "[[Downloaded]]" strongly suggests that the virtual copies of [[Caprica Six]] and Baltar that [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations|haunt their opposite interests]] seem to be psychological remnants of the pair's intensive emotional connection. But what if there is more to this than psychology? Episode events surrounding the [[Sacred Scrolls]] and Laura Roslin's quest for the [[Tomb of Athena]] confirm that the Colonials have a spiritual or prophetic element that has guided them to the data that now places them in a true general path to Earth. What forces are driving Baltar beyond his own egotism? What is the nature of the virtual Six and Baltar? Neither Baltar nor Caprica Six know why they appear, and both virtual beings appear to have knowledge beyond that of what the living being they haunt should know. If Baltar is being influenced by the Cylon God (or some cybernetic influence known by neither Cylon or Colonial), there suggests a new thread to the Baltar-as-Cylon speculation that goes beyond the mere creation of a Baltar model. However, in the podcast Ron Moore speaks of the virtual Baltar as simply a hallucination, while interviews and podcasts Moore consistently states that the origin of the virtual Six is supposed to be deliberately vague.

==Baltar as "Psychologically Cylon"==

In a sort of cross between the Agent of God theory and the Cylon model theory, there may be the possibility that Baltar is, post-Caprica attack, psychologically Cylon even if not physically so. He may have, at the time of the attack, had a near-death experience (of the type known to occur with humans), and this could have still interfered with the download of Caprica-Six and created the same kind of exchange described elsewhere on this page as a "virtual consciousness". If this is the case, it calls into question the nature of Cylon souls, as it would suggest that they are more similar to the human variety than previously believed. The resulting hallucinations experienced by both Caprica-Six and Baltar therefore would not require Baltar to be physically a Cylon, much as the Agent of God theory does not.

However, what may have been exchanged between the two--and the behavior of Caprica-Six in future episodes will be telling--is their psychological species identity, to some degree. After the attack on Caprica, Baltar is driven to protect Cylon interests by his virtual Six, but Caprica-Six is driven to protect human interests (albeit in a warped way). This renders Baltar at least in part "psychologically Cylon," as his new conscience and instincts drive him (when he isn't thinking of himself!) to protect Cylon interests at the expense of his physical, human identity. Caprica-Six, during "[[Downloaded]]," parallels in takes extremely dangerous risks for the sake of rebel humans. It even becomes possible that the psychological conflict Baltar is experiencing between the forcefully "Cylonized" parts of his conscience and whatever remaining humanity is in him is at the root of his addiction to painkillers...that it becomes a way in which he tries to numb or lessen the conflict or perhaps even take himself out of action without resorting to a suicide that would go against his strong self-preservation instinct.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Baltar as Cylon speculation

2006-10-31T22:24:14Z

Rose Immortal: /* Baltar as "Psychologically Cylon" */

:''This extended speculation thread appears all but disproven with the airing of the episode "[[Downloaded]]". To go directly to what may be the final arguments toward Baltar as a Cylon, see the last section of this subarticle. This is continuing from [[Cylon agent speculation#Gaius Baltar?|Cylon agent speculation]].''

For '''[[Gaius Baltar]]''' to survive the destruction of Caprica was no small matter, especially considering he was in the wake a nuclear shock wave and that the body of Six that he knew was apparently destroyed in trying to protect him in the events of the [[Miniseries]].

A nuclear blast's shock wave is substantial (not unlike that from a [[Wikipedia:Pyroclastic flow|pyroclastic cloud]]). The shock wave would contain rocks, glass, metal, and other large debris that would bludgeon, pierce and lacerate human tissue with ease and at terrific speeds (at maximum, 1200 KPH, or 745 MPH). Such a debris-filled shock wave would obliterate Baltar's home and easily annihilate Six's body, which at those speeds would provide essentially no protection to Baltar's. (For comparison, note that, despite his superior strength, the head of the first [[Leoben Conoy]] copy encountered was bludgeoned by Commander Adama with a flashlight, and many other Cylon agent copies have been shot or killed as easily as a human.) However, it has to be kept in mind that the blast wave had dissipated greatly by the time it had reached Baltar's house some 26 seconds after the detonation that almost blinded him, probably no more than hurricane force, a wind speed of 74 mph. There are testimonies from Hiroshima and Nagasaki survivors, two Japanese cities that were struck with nuclear bombs at the end of World War II, being in buildings and even in trams quite close to the epicentre and coming out of the ordeal surprisingly unharmed save for a few scratches.

Even if Baltar survived momentarily from Six's protection, either the remains of his home would have collapsed over him, likely trapping him if not killing him, or he and Six's body would also be carried away by the shock wave for some distance.

Six has had two years to gather plenty of Baltar's genetic material. Could the Baltar on ''Galactica'' be now, in fact, a Cylon agent?

==Why a Copy?==

Information from RDM indicate that, at the start of season 2, there are ''eight'' Cylon operatives that appear in the fleet. A Baltar copy would also have made matters very, very easy for the Cylons in their work to infiltrate the Colonial defences and would be easily dropped in place to escape or happen to appear on a ship of the nascent Fleet. Such clones may also explain the 'fake' recording from [[Shelly Godfrey]] of Baltar compromising Colonial computer systems in a latter Season 1 episode. Perhaps it was the Cylons who doctored what was, in reality, a legitimate recording of a Baltar copy.

One notable question would be ''why'' Six has spent so much time talking to Baltar and then thrown herself in front of the blast if she'd intended for him to die? If Baltar was already a Cylon agent, his consciousness from that moment would be thrown into a waking duplicate, already disheveled and scraped, where Baltar would merely think he was blown clear to safety where he could run to escape attacks with other survivors. Also, since Baltar appeared to be key in many Cylon plans, they would want to ensure that Baltar would reach any remaining humans to spy for them, and having only one copy might risk the success of such plans. Further, it is the ''psyche'' of Baltar that the Cylons may treasure most; few others in the Colonies may have the level of intelligence, arrogance, and neurosis that Baltar has that could prove as easily exploitable. The guise of the great Baltar gives the Cylons a huge natural tactical advantage in that he is well known and allowed access to almost any critical battlestar location. Baltar's slick-as-oil personality aids him with better finesse and stronger charisma than any Cylon agent personality yet seen.

==The Baltar-as-Father Argument==

Six has stated her desire to have a child with Baltar. Cylon agent couplings have failed to result in offspring prior to that point ([[The Farm]]). If Baltar and Six were both Cylon agents, it is likely that offspring would either be impossible or at least exceptionally unlikely. This point gives evidence against the Baltar-as-Cylon theory, but Six has repeatedly made it clear that she considers the hybrid human-cylon baby that Sharon is carrying to be "our" (as she puts it) baby. "Our" may in fact be inclusive of all cylons, which may just include Baltar.

In "[[Home, Part II]]", Six indicates that Baltar's and Six's child will be born in the isolation cage built for the [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|''Galactica'' copy of Sharon Valerii]]. The reality turned out different: The Caprica version of Valerii, pregnant by [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], now occupies the cage by the end of that episode, and Six indicates that it is in fact '''Valerii's''' child that will become Baltar's. This gives some weight to the Baltar-as-Cylon theory since Baltar becoming a father by surrogate circumvents the need for him to do so naturally. While Caprica-Valerii shows that a female Cylon agent could conceive, no information is yet available on whether male Cylon agents could sire a child with human females. However, earlier in the first season, in "[[33]]", Six asked Baltar if he wanted to procreate with her, and at this point she may have meant an actual child of Baltar's. "Home, Part II" occurred much later in the timeline, and it is possible that the Cylons and Number Six had to alter their plans during this time. Number Six did mention in "Home, Part II" that she didn't consider Sharon "worthy" of bearing one of "God's new children" (the Cylon agents). Perhaps Sharon was not originally planned to be the first mother of a hybrid baby at all, and Number Six was going to have a child with the (necessarily human) Baltar, but had to shift plans when Boomer became pregnant first.

==Inside Baltar's Head==

Baltar's brain scan in "[[Home, Part II]]" confirms that the virtual Six that only Baltar can see is '''not''' an actual ''artificial'' device in his brain. This leaves a number of possibilities, of which the strongest are:

# Baltar has a device elsewhere in his body. We're not given information on whether ''all'' of Baltar's body was scanned, or just his head.
# A portion of Baltar's body ''is'' the "chip" but fashioned in a way by the Cylons that is medically indistinguishable from a regular body part and may also function normally (say, a pituitary gland)
# Baltar's body is artificial, with his personality (complete with neuroses) placed in a Cylon agent construct. While Baltar's psyche itself may not be that of a Cylon, the addition of the virtual Six component compliments the arrangement for the Cylon's purposes.

Possibility #3 is interesting in that, based on Baltar's own research on the Six copy known as [[Gina]], Baltar's personality and guilt would continue to plague him either in Cylon agent or human form. But, if Baltar were reconstructed as a Cylon, the virtual Six aids Baltar by being, in effect, the conscience and "guardian angel" she claims to be, keeping his neuroses and guilt over the genocide from driving him completely insane--for now.

==But Cylons aren't human clones==

As Cylons aren't copies of humans, this would suggest either of two possibilities for Baltar: first, that he survived the blast and escaped, or second, that Baltar was a Cylon all along, even on Caprica.

The idea of Baltar being originally a Cylon has problems, however. If Baltar were a Cylon, it would be redundant and unnecessary for Number Six to "choose him" for her mission (unless the Cylons preferred Baltar to remain a "sleeper" throughout his mission to give "plausible deniability" in his mind as well as allow him to do what his personality is likely to do). Furthermore, from a story perspective, the idea of Baltar being a Cylon very much goes against the idea of Baltar as a traitor betraying humanity to the Cylons—as well as the idea of Baltar's relationship with Six being a true human/Cylon pairing. It should be noted, however, that Ron D. Moore's "Gaius Baltar" differs significantly from the [[Baltar (TOS)|"Baltar" of the Original Series]]. The Baltar of the Original Series was a true turncoat with megalomaniacal tendencies; Gaius, on the other hand, is not power-hungry but is driven by a strong sense of self, albeit to the exclusion and ignorance of the needs of everyone else.

Gaius is often treated by Six as a human--ultimately the only human who will be allowed to survive by the Cylons. But the human models of Cylon also behave with classically human qualities (not all of them perfect or utopian) and seem to see each other in varying emotions (admiration and contempt are prevalent when Six speaks of the pregnant Caprica Valerii). So, at the least, Gaius is treated with no less respect than any other Cylon agent by his virtual Six. If we assume Gaius is indeed human, Six's interaction with Baltar (given the hostilities of the Cylons) borders on admiration. Although we can't necessarily use Six's emotions as a ''de facto'' gauge of Baltar's genuine humanity, it does lend to the mystery.

The storyline possibilities do change somewhat if Baltar has ''always'' been a Cylon. Note that Baltar has never spoken of his family or other friends (other than President [[Richard Adar|Adar]]), strongly suggesting Baltar has been a "loner." If Baltar's parentage (or offspring--he is rather promiscuous) cannot be confirmed (as has been done with Commander Adama, also on the list of suspects), then the laws of physics (nuclear shock wave damage to human tissue) as well as the laws of procreation (Cylons can't quite procreate as humans do) continue to leave open the possibility that Baltar is model of Cylon, however reduced the odds are now, based on Moore's new information.

=="Downloaded" all but disproves speculation==

The episode "[[Downloaded]]" contains revelations that make it extremely unlikely the Baltar is a Cylon. In dialogues with each other, numerous Cylon characters distinctly refer to Baltar as human. Although it is possible that they might keep the information from Baltar, the nature of the Cylon thought collective would seem to make no sense to keep it a secret to each other. In addition, this episode introduced the unique idea of a Number Six copy with a virtual ''Baltar'' in her head. Through Six, Baltar pushes for the Cylons to be more human; for example, letting [[Samuel Anders]] go free despite his destruction of a building and many other Cylon agents. If Baltar were a Cylon, the events in the episode would make little sense.

With this episode's end, the remaining tenuous thread to the now-remote likelihood of Baltar as a Cylon involves the manner of Baltar and Caprica-Six's relationship as opposed to [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer]] and Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]. If we suppose as a certainty that both Baltar and Tyrol are human, then why does Baltar find himself with a virtual Six after she dies, while Tyrol does not find a virtual Boomer walking about after Boomer's death? Both humans find themselves denying their love, only to recant their claim later. What makes the Baltar-Six arrangement so strikingly different? Why, at all, have these virtual Six and Baltar incarnations appeared in the first place? If Baltar were a Cylon (albeit a model unknown to any other Cylon, which would stretch the plausibility of the nature of their collective thought process per "Downloaded"), would the love between two Cylons cause a "feedback loop" of emotion to spill over between the two Cylons, creating the virtual consciousnesses? Or, assuming that Baltar is fully human, if Cylons revive (medically) a dead human (as Baltar should be, given the destruction of his home and everything in it ''except him''), would such a revival cause the virtual consciousnesses to emerge? In contrast, Tyrol has not died (although he suffers a near-death by Dr. Baltar's hand in "[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]") which may support this weaker, but faintly plausible concept of Baltar's true nature.

==Update: Interview with the production team provides a new twist...==

*{{spoilli|According to interviews with Grace Park, Dean Stockwell, and Tricia Helfer, the remaining Cylons are so secret that even the seven models known to the audience don't know who the last five are.}}

==Baltar as an "Agent of God"==
Baltar's actions when forced by his virtual Six to repent and worship the Cylon version of [[God]] leaves several significant questions as to the nature of both the virtual Six and Baltar's nature.

In the episode, "[[The Hand of God]]", Baltar makes an educated guess at the specific target to be destroyed on the [[tylium]] refinery without knowing any significant data on the site. Baltar only receives encouragement from his virtual Six to trust in her belief. In "[[Six Degrees of Separation]]," viewers see a stricken and nearly-criminally exposed Baltar repent to the virtual Six just as Lt. Gaeta arrives to confirm his innocence. In the same episode, the virtual Six disappears in anger just as the [[Shelly Godfrey]] copy arrives (with a suggestion that the virtual Six ''knew'' (or summoned) the Godfrey model to arrive. The Godfrey model disappears just as the virtual Six returns as Baltar is repenting.

The episode "[[Downloaded]]" strongly suggests that the virtual copies of [[Caprica Six]] and Baltar that [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations|haunt their opposite interests]] seem to be psychological remnants of the pair's intensive emotional connection. But what if there is more to this than psychology? Episode events surrounding the [[Sacred Scrolls]] and Laura Roslin's quest for the [[Tomb of Athena]] confirm that the Colonials have a spiritual or prophetic element that has guided them to the data that now places them in a true general path to Earth. What forces are driving Baltar beyond his own egotism? What is the nature of the virtual Six and Baltar? Neither Baltar nor Caprica Six know why they appear, and both virtual beings appear to have knowledge beyond that of what the living being they haunt should know. If Baltar is being influenced by the Cylon God (or some cybernetic influence known by neither Cylon or Colonial), there suggests a new thread to the Baltar-as-Cylon speculation that goes beyond the mere creation of a Baltar model. However, in the podcast Ron Moore speaks of the virtual Baltar as simply a hallucination, while interviews and podcasts Moore consistently states that the origin of the virtual Six is supposed to be deliberately vague.

==Baltar as "Psychologically Cylon"==

In a sort of cross between the Agent of God theory and the Cylon model theory, there may be the possibility that Baltar is, post-Caprica attack, psychologically Cylon even if not physically so. He may have, at the time of the attack, had a near-death experience (of the type known to occur with humans), and this could have still interfered with the download of Caprica-Six and created the same kind of exchange described elsewhere on this page as a "virtual consciousness". If this is the case, it calls into question the nature of Cylon souls, as it would suggest that they are more similar to the human variety than previously believed. The resulting hallucinations experienced by both Caprica-Six and Baltar therefore would not require Baltar to be physically a Cylon, much as the Agent of God theory does not.

However, what may have been exchanged between the two--and the behavior of Caprica-Six in future episodes will be telling--is their psychological species identity, to some degree. After the attack on Caprica, Baltar is driven to protect Cylon interests by his virtual Six, but Caprica-Six is driven to protect human interests (albeit in a warped way). This renders Baltar at least in part "psychologically Cylon," as his new conscience and instincts drive him (when he isn't thinking of himself!) to protect Cylon interests at the expense of his physical identity. Caprica-Six, during "[[Downloaded]]," parallels in takes extremely dangerous risks for the sake of rebel humans. It even becomes possible that the psychological conflict Baltar is experiencing between the forcefully "Cylonized" parts of his conscience and whatever remaining humanity is in him is at the root of his addiction to painkillers...that it becomes a way in which he tries to numb or lessen the conflict or perhaps even take himself out of action without resorting to a suicide that would go against his strong self-preservation instinct.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Baltar as Cylon speculation

2006-10-31T22:23:05Z

Rose Immortal: /* Baltar as "Psychologically Cylon" */

:''This extended speculation thread appears all but disproven with the airing of the episode "[[Downloaded]]". To go directly to what may be the final arguments toward Baltar as a Cylon, see the last section of this subarticle. This is continuing from [[Cylon agent speculation#Gaius Baltar?|Cylon agent speculation]].''

For '''[[Gaius Baltar]]''' to survive the destruction of Caprica was no small matter, especially considering he was in the wake a nuclear shock wave and that the body of Six that he knew was apparently destroyed in trying to protect him in the events of the [[Miniseries]].

A nuclear blast's shock wave is substantial (not unlike that from a [[Wikipedia:Pyroclastic flow|pyroclastic cloud]]). The shock wave would contain rocks, glass, metal, and other large debris that would bludgeon, pierce and lacerate human tissue with ease and at terrific speeds (at maximum, 1200 KPH, or 745 MPH). Such a debris-filled shock wave would obliterate Baltar's home and easily annihilate Six's body, which at those speeds would provide essentially no protection to Baltar's. (For comparison, note that, despite his superior strength, the head of the first [[Leoben Conoy]] copy encountered was bludgeoned by Commander Adama with a flashlight, and many other Cylon agent copies have been shot or killed as easily as a human.) However, it has to be kept in mind that the blast wave had dissipated greatly by the time it had reached Baltar's house some 26 seconds after the detonation that almost blinded him, probably no more than hurricane force, a wind speed of 74 mph. There are testimonies from Hiroshima and Nagasaki survivors, two Japanese cities that were struck with nuclear bombs at the end of World War II, being in buildings and even in trams quite close to the epicentre and coming out of the ordeal surprisingly unharmed save for a few scratches.

Even if Baltar survived momentarily from Six's protection, either the remains of his home would have collapsed over him, likely trapping him if not killing him, or he and Six's body would also be carried away by the shock wave for some distance.

Six has had two years to gather plenty of Baltar's genetic material. Could the Baltar on ''Galactica'' be now, in fact, a Cylon agent?

==Why a Copy?==

Information from RDM indicate that, at the start of season 2, there are ''eight'' Cylon operatives that appear in the fleet. A Baltar copy would also have made matters very, very easy for the Cylons in their work to infiltrate the Colonial defences and would be easily dropped in place to escape or happen to appear on a ship of the nascent Fleet. Such clones may also explain the 'fake' recording from [[Shelly Godfrey]] of Baltar compromising Colonial computer systems in a latter Season 1 episode. Perhaps it was the Cylons who doctored what was, in reality, a legitimate recording of a Baltar copy.

One notable question would be ''why'' Six has spent so much time talking to Baltar and then thrown herself in front of the blast if she'd intended for him to die? If Baltar was already a Cylon agent, his consciousness from that moment would be thrown into a waking duplicate, already disheveled and scraped, where Baltar would merely think he was blown clear to safety where he could run to escape attacks with other survivors. Also, since Baltar appeared to be key in many Cylon plans, they would want to ensure that Baltar would reach any remaining humans to spy for them, and having only one copy might risk the success of such plans. Further, it is the ''psyche'' of Baltar that the Cylons may treasure most; few others in the Colonies may have the level of intelligence, arrogance, and neurosis that Baltar has that could prove as easily exploitable. The guise of the great Baltar gives the Cylons a huge natural tactical advantage in that he is well known and allowed access to almost any critical battlestar location. Baltar's slick-as-oil personality aids him with better finesse and stronger charisma than any Cylon agent personality yet seen.

==The Baltar-as-Father Argument==

Six has stated her desire to have a child with Baltar. Cylon agent couplings have failed to result in offspring prior to that point ([[The Farm]]). If Baltar and Six were both Cylon agents, it is likely that offspring would either be impossible or at least exceptionally unlikely. This point gives evidence against the Baltar-as-Cylon theory, but Six has repeatedly made it clear that she considers the hybrid human-cylon baby that Sharon is carrying to be "our" (as she puts it) baby. "Our" may in fact be inclusive of all cylons, which may just include Baltar.

In "[[Home, Part II]]", Six indicates that Baltar's and Six's child will be born in the isolation cage built for the [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|''Galactica'' copy of Sharon Valerii]]. The reality turned out different: The Caprica version of Valerii, pregnant by [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], now occupies the cage by the end of that episode, and Six indicates that it is in fact '''Valerii's''' child that will become Baltar's. This gives some weight to the Baltar-as-Cylon theory since Baltar becoming a father by surrogate circumvents the need for him to do so naturally. While Caprica-Valerii shows that a female Cylon agent could conceive, no information is yet available on whether male Cylon agents could sire a child with human females. However, earlier in the first season, in "[[33]]", Six asked Baltar if he wanted to procreate with her, and at this point she may have meant an actual child of Baltar's. "Home, Part II" occurred much later in the timeline, and it is possible that the Cylons and Number Six had to alter their plans during this time. Number Six did mention in "Home, Part II" that she didn't consider Sharon "worthy" of bearing one of "God's new children" (the Cylon agents). Perhaps Sharon was not originally planned to be the first mother of a hybrid baby at all, and Number Six was going to have a child with the (necessarily human) Baltar, but had to shift plans when Boomer became pregnant first.

==Inside Baltar's Head==

Baltar's brain scan in "[[Home, Part II]]" confirms that the virtual Six that only Baltar can see is '''not''' an actual ''artificial'' device in his brain. This leaves a number of possibilities, of which the strongest are:

# Baltar has a device elsewhere in his body. We're not given information on whether ''all'' of Baltar's body was scanned, or just his head.
# A portion of Baltar's body ''is'' the "chip" but fashioned in a way by the Cylons that is medically indistinguishable from a regular body part and may also function normally (say, a pituitary gland)
# Baltar's body is artificial, with his personality (complete with neuroses) placed in a Cylon agent construct. While Baltar's psyche itself may not be that of a Cylon, the addition of the virtual Six component compliments the arrangement for the Cylon's purposes.

Possibility #3 is interesting in that, based on Baltar's own research on the Six copy known as [[Gina]], Baltar's personality and guilt would continue to plague him either in Cylon agent or human form. But, if Baltar were reconstructed as a Cylon, the virtual Six aids Baltar by being, in effect, the conscience and "guardian angel" she claims to be, keeping his neuroses and guilt over the genocide from driving him completely insane--for now.

==But Cylons aren't human clones==

As Cylons aren't copies of humans, this would suggest either of two possibilities for Baltar: first, that he survived the blast and escaped, or second, that Baltar was a Cylon all along, even on Caprica.

The idea of Baltar being originally a Cylon has problems, however. If Baltar were a Cylon, it would be redundant and unnecessary for Number Six to "choose him" for her mission (unless the Cylons preferred Baltar to remain a "sleeper" throughout his mission to give "plausible deniability" in his mind as well as allow him to do what his personality is likely to do). Furthermore, from a story perspective, the idea of Baltar being a Cylon very much goes against the idea of Baltar as a traitor betraying humanity to the Cylons—as well as the idea of Baltar's relationship with Six being a true human/Cylon pairing. It should be noted, however, that Ron D. Moore's "Gaius Baltar" differs significantly from the [[Baltar (TOS)|"Baltar" of the Original Series]]. The Baltar of the Original Series was a true turncoat with megalomaniacal tendencies; Gaius, on the other hand, is not power-hungry but is driven by a strong sense of self, albeit to the exclusion and ignorance of the needs of everyone else.

Gaius is often treated by Six as a human--ultimately the only human who will be allowed to survive by the Cylons. But the human models of Cylon also behave with classically human qualities (not all of them perfect or utopian) and seem to see each other in varying emotions (admiration and contempt are prevalent when Six speaks of the pregnant Caprica Valerii). So, at the least, Gaius is treated with no less respect than any other Cylon agent by his virtual Six. If we assume Gaius is indeed human, Six's interaction with Baltar (given the hostilities of the Cylons) borders on admiration. Although we can't necessarily use Six's emotions as a ''de facto'' gauge of Baltar's genuine humanity, it does lend to the mystery.

The storyline possibilities do change somewhat if Baltar has ''always'' been a Cylon. Note that Baltar has never spoken of his family or other friends (other than President [[Richard Adar|Adar]]), strongly suggesting Baltar has been a "loner." If Baltar's parentage (or offspring--he is rather promiscuous) cannot be confirmed (as has been done with Commander Adama, also on the list of suspects), then the laws of physics (nuclear shock wave damage to human tissue) as well as the laws of procreation (Cylons can't quite procreate as humans do) continue to leave open the possibility that Baltar is model of Cylon, however reduced the odds are now, based on Moore's new information.

=="Downloaded" all but disproves speculation==

The episode "[[Downloaded]]" contains revelations that make it extremely unlikely the Baltar is a Cylon. In dialogues with each other, numerous Cylon characters distinctly refer to Baltar as human. Although it is possible that they might keep the information from Baltar, the nature of the Cylon thought collective would seem to make no sense to keep it a secret to each other. In addition, this episode introduced the unique idea of a Number Six copy with a virtual ''Baltar'' in her head. Through Six, Baltar pushes for the Cylons to be more human; for example, letting [[Samuel Anders]] go free despite his destruction of a building and many other Cylon agents. If Baltar were a Cylon, the events in the episode would make little sense.

With this episode's end, the remaining tenuous thread to the now-remote likelihood of Baltar as a Cylon involves the manner of Baltar and Caprica-Six's relationship as opposed to [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer]] and Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]. If we suppose as a certainty that both Baltar and Tyrol are human, then why does Baltar find himself with a virtual Six after she dies, while Tyrol does not find a virtual Boomer walking about after Boomer's death? Both humans find themselves denying their love, only to recant their claim later. What makes the Baltar-Six arrangement so strikingly different? Why, at all, have these virtual Six and Baltar incarnations appeared in the first place? If Baltar were a Cylon (albeit a model unknown to any other Cylon, which would stretch the plausibility of the nature of their collective thought process per "Downloaded"), would the love between two Cylons cause a "feedback loop" of emotion to spill over between the two Cylons, creating the virtual consciousnesses? Or, assuming that Baltar is fully human, if Cylons revive (medically) a dead human (as Baltar should be, given the destruction of his home and everything in it ''except him''), would such a revival cause the virtual consciousnesses to emerge? In contrast, Tyrol has not died (although he suffers a near-death by Dr. Baltar's hand in "[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]") which may support this weaker, but faintly plausible concept of Baltar's true nature.

==Update: Interview with the production team provides a new twist...==

*{{spoilli|According to interviews with Grace Park, Dean Stockwell, and Tricia Helfer, the remaining Cylons are so secret that even the seven models known to the audience don't know who the last five are.}}

==Baltar as an "Agent of God"==
Baltar's actions when forced by his virtual Six to repent and worship the Cylon version of [[God]] leaves several significant questions as to the nature of both the virtual Six and Baltar's nature.

In the episode, "[[The Hand of God]]", Baltar makes an educated guess at the specific target to be destroyed on the [[tylium]] refinery without knowing any significant data on the site. Baltar only receives encouragement from his virtual Six to trust in her belief. In "[[Six Degrees of Separation]]," viewers see a stricken and nearly-criminally exposed Baltar repent to the virtual Six just as Lt. Gaeta arrives to confirm his innocence. In the same episode, the virtual Six disappears in anger just as the [[Shelly Godfrey]] copy arrives (with a suggestion that the virtual Six ''knew'' (or summoned) the Godfrey model to arrive. The Godfrey model disappears just as the virtual Six returns as Baltar is repenting.

The episode "[[Downloaded]]" strongly suggests that the virtual copies of [[Caprica Six]] and Baltar that [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations|haunt their opposite interests]] seem to be psychological remnants of the pair's intensive emotional connection. But what if there is more to this than psychology? Episode events surrounding the [[Sacred Scrolls]] and Laura Roslin's quest for the [[Tomb of Athena]] confirm that the Colonials have a spiritual or prophetic element that has guided them to the data that now places them in a true general path to Earth. What forces are driving Baltar beyond his own egotism? What is the nature of the virtual Six and Baltar? Neither Baltar nor Caprica Six know why they appear, and both virtual beings appear to have knowledge beyond that of what the living being they haunt should know. If Baltar is being influenced by the Cylon God (or some cybernetic influence known by neither Cylon or Colonial), there suggests a new thread to the Baltar-as-Cylon speculation that goes beyond the mere creation of a Baltar model. However, in the podcast Ron Moore speaks of the virtual Baltar as simply a hallucination, while interviews and podcasts Moore consistently states that the origin of the virtual Six is supposed to be deliberately vague.

==Baltar as "Psychologically Cylon"==

In a sort of cross between the Agent of God theory and the Cylon model theory, there may be the possibility that Baltar is, post-Caprica attack, psychologically Cylon even if not physically so. He may have, at the time of the attack, had a near-death experience (of the type known to occur with humans), and this could have still interfered with the download of Caprica-Six. If this is the case, it calls into question the nature of Cylon souls, as it would suggest that they are more similar to the human variety than previously believed. The resulting hallucinations experienced by both Caprica-Six and Baltar therefore would not require Baltar to be physically a Cylon, much as the Agent of God theory does not.

However, what may have been exchanged between the two--and the behavior of Caprica-Six in future episodes will be telling--is their psychological species identity, to some degree. After the attack on Caprica, Baltar is driven to protect Cylon interests by his virtual Six, but Caprica-Six is driven to protect human interests (albeit in a warped way). This renders Baltar at least in part "psychologically Cylon," as his new conscience and instincts drive him (when he isn't thinking of himself!) to protect Cylon interests at the expense of his physical identity. Caprica-Six, during "[[Downloaded]]," parallels in takes extremely dangerous risks for the sake of rebel humans. It even becomes possible that the psychological conflict Baltar is experiencing between the forcefully "Cylonized" parts of his conscience and whatever remaining humanity is in him is at the root of his addiction to painkillers...that it becomes a way in which he tries to numb or lessen the conflict or perhaps even take himself out of action without resorting to a suicide that would go against his strong self-preservation instinct.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Baltar as Cylon speculation

2006-10-31T22:20:42Z

Rose Immortal: /* Baltar as an "Agent of God" */

:''This extended speculation thread appears all but disproven with the airing of the episode "[[Downloaded]]". To go directly to what may be the final arguments toward Baltar as a Cylon, see the last section of this subarticle. This is continuing from [[Cylon agent speculation#Gaius Baltar?|Cylon agent speculation]].''

For '''[[Gaius Baltar]]''' to survive the destruction of Caprica was no small matter, especially considering he was in the wake a nuclear shock wave and that the body of Six that he knew was apparently destroyed in trying to protect him in the events of the [[Miniseries]].

A nuclear blast's shock wave is substantial (not unlike that from a [[Wikipedia:Pyroclastic flow|pyroclastic cloud]]). The shock wave would contain rocks, glass, metal, and other large debris that would bludgeon, pierce and lacerate human tissue with ease and at terrific speeds (at maximum, 1200 KPH, or 745 MPH). Such a debris-filled shock wave would obliterate Baltar's home and easily annihilate Six's body, which at those speeds would provide essentially no protection to Baltar's. (For comparison, note that, despite his superior strength, the head of the first [[Leoben Conoy]] copy encountered was bludgeoned by Commander Adama with a flashlight, and many other Cylon agent copies have been shot or killed as easily as a human.) However, it has to be kept in mind that the blast wave had dissipated greatly by the time it had reached Baltar's house some 26 seconds after the detonation that almost blinded him, probably no more than hurricane force, a wind speed of 74 mph. There are testimonies from Hiroshima and Nagasaki survivors, two Japanese cities that were struck with nuclear bombs at the end of World War II, being in buildings and even in trams quite close to the epicentre and coming out of the ordeal surprisingly unharmed save for a few scratches.

Even if Baltar survived momentarily from Six's protection, either the remains of his home would have collapsed over him, likely trapping him if not killing him, or he and Six's body would also be carried away by the shock wave for some distance.

Six has had two years to gather plenty of Baltar's genetic material. Could the Baltar on ''Galactica'' be now, in fact, a Cylon agent?

==Why a Copy?==

Information from RDM indicate that, at the start of season 2, there are ''eight'' Cylon operatives that appear in the fleet. A Baltar copy would also have made matters very, very easy for the Cylons in their work to infiltrate the Colonial defences and would be easily dropped in place to escape or happen to appear on a ship of the nascent Fleet. Such clones may also explain the 'fake' recording from [[Shelly Godfrey]] of Baltar compromising Colonial computer systems in a latter Season 1 episode. Perhaps it was the Cylons who doctored what was, in reality, a legitimate recording of a Baltar copy.

One notable question would be ''why'' Six has spent so much time talking to Baltar and then thrown herself in front of the blast if she'd intended for him to die? If Baltar was already a Cylon agent, his consciousness from that moment would be thrown into a waking duplicate, already disheveled and scraped, where Baltar would merely think he was blown clear to safety where he could run to escape attacks with other survivors. Also, since Baltar appeared to be key in many Cylon plans, they would want to ensure that Baltar would reach any remaining humans to spy for them, and having only one copy might risk the success of such plans. Further, it is the ''psyche'' of Baltar that the Cylons may treasure most; few others in the Colonies may have the level of intelligence, arrogance, and neurosis that Baltar has that could prove as easily exploitable. The guise of the great Baltar gives the Cylons a huge natural tactical advantage in that he is well known and allowed access to almost any critical battlestar location. Baltar's slick-as-oil personality aids him with better finesse and stronger charisma than any Cylon agent personality yet seen.

==The Baltar-as-Father Argument==

Six has stated her desire to have a child with Baltar. Cylon agent couplings have failed to result in offspring prior to that point ([[The Farm]]). If Baltar and Six were both Cylon agents, it is likely that offspring would either be impossible or at least exceptionally unlikely. This point gives evidence against the Baltar-as-Cylon theory, but Six has repeatedly made it clear that she considers the hybrid human-cylon baby that Sharon is carrying to be "our" (as she puts it) baby. "Our" may in fact be inclusive of all cylons, which may just include Baltar.

In "[[Home, Part II]]", Six indicates that Baltar's and Six's child will be born in the isolation cage built for the [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|''Galactica'' copy of Sharon Valerii]]. The reality turned out different: The Caprica version of Valerii, pregnant by [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], now occupies the cage by the end of that episode, and Six indicates that it is in fact '''Valerii's''' child that will become Baltar's. This gives some weight to the Baltar-as-Cylon theory since Baltar becoming a father by surrogate circumvents the need for him to do so naturally. While Caprica-Valerii shows that a female Cylon agent could conceive, no information is yet available on whether male Cylon agents could sire a child with human females. However, earlier in the first season, in "[[33]]", Six asked Baltar if he wanted to procreate with her, and at this point she may have meant an actual child of Baltar's. "Home, Part II" occurred much later in the timeline, and it is possible that the Cylons and Number Six had to alter their plans during this time. Number Six did mention in "Home, Part II" that she didn't consider Sharon "worthy" of bearing one of "God's new children" (the Cylon agents). Perhaps Sharon was not originally planned to be the first mother of a hybrid baby at all, and Number Six was going to have a child with the (necessarily human) Baltar, but had to shift plans when Boomer became pregnant first.

==Inside Baltar's Head==

Baltar's brain scan in "[[Home, Part II]]" confirms that the virtual Six that only Baltar can see is '''not''' an actual ''artificial'' device in his brain. This leaves a number of possibilities, of which the strongest are:

# Baltar has a device elsewhere in his body. We're not given information on whether ''all'' of Baltar's body was scanned, or just his head.
# A portion of Baltar's body ''is'' the "chip" but fashioned in a way by the Cylons that is medically indistinguishable from a regular body part and may also function normally (say, a pituitary gland)
# Baltar's body is artificial, with his personality (complete with neuroses) placed in a Cylon agent construct. While Baltar's psyche itself may not be that of a Cylon, the addition of the virtual Six component compliments the arrangement for the Cylon's purposes.

Possibility #3 is interesting in that, based on Baltar's own research on the Six copy known as [[Gina]], Baltar's personality and guilt would continue to plague him either in Cylon agent or human form. But, if Baltar were reconstructed as a Cylon, the virtual Six aids Baltar by being, in effect, the conscience and "guardian angel" she claims to be, keeping his neuroses and guilt over the genocide from driving him completely insane--for now.

==But Cylons aren't human clones==

As Cylons aren't copies of humans, this would suggest either of two possibilities for Baltar: first, that he survived the blast and escaped, or second, that Baltar was a Cylon all along, even on Caprica.

The idea of Baltar being originally a Cylon has problems, however. If Baltar were a Cylon, it would be redundant and unnecessary for Number Six to "choose him" for her mission (unless the Cylons preferred Baltar to remain a "sleeper" throughout his mission to give "plausible deniability" in his mind as well as allow him to do what his personality is likely to do). Furthermore, from a story perspective, the idea of Baltar being a Cylon very much goes against the idea of Baltar as a traitor betraying humanity to the Cylons—as well as the idea of Baltar's relationship with Six being a true human/Cylon pairing. It should be noted, however, that Ron D. Moore's "Gaius Baltar" differs significantly from the [[Baltar (TOS)|"Baltar" of the Original Series]]. The Baltar of the Original Series was a true turncoat with megalomaniacal tendencies; Gaius, on the other hand, is not power-hungry but is driven by a strong sense of self, albeit to the exclusion and ignorance of the needs of everyone else.

Gaius is often treated by Six as a human--ultimately the only human who will be allowed to survive by the Cylons. But the human models of Cylon also behave with classically human qualities (not all of them perfect or utopian) and seem to see each other in varying emotions (admiration and contempt are prevalent when Six speaks of the pregnant Caprica Valerii). So, at the least, Gaius is treated with no less respect than any other Cylon agent by his virtual Six. If we assume Gaius is indeed human, Six's interaction with Baltar (given the hostilities of the Cylons) borders on admiration. Although we can't necessarily use Six's emotions as a ''de facto'' gauge of Baltar's genuine humanity, it does lend to the mystery.

The storyline possibilities do change somewhat if Baltar has ''always'' been a Cylon. Note that Baltar has never spoken of his family or other friends (other than President [[Richard Adar|Adar]]), strongly suggesting Baltar has been a "loner." If Baltar's parentage (or offspring--he is rather promiscuous) cannot be confirmed (as has been done with Commander Adama, also on the list of suspects), then the laws of physics (nuclear shock wave damage to human tissue) as well as the laws of procreation (Cylons can't quite procreate as humans do) continue to leave open the possibility that Baltar is model of Cylon, however reduced the odds are now, based on Moore's new information.

=="Downloaded" all but disproves speculation==

The episode "[[Downloaded]]" contains revelations that make it extremely unlikely the Baltar is a Cylon. In dialogues with each other, numerous Cylon characters distinctly refer to Baltar as human. Although it is possible that they might keep the information from Baltar, the nature of the Cylon thought collective would seem to make no sense to keep it a secret to each other. In addition, this episode introduced the unique idea of a Number Six copy with a virtual ''Baltar'' in her head. Through Six, Baltar pushes for the Cylons to be more human; for example, letting [[Samuel Anders]] go free despite his destruction of a building and many other Cylon agents. If Baltar were a Cylon, the events in the episode would make little sense.

With this episode's end, the remaining tenuous thread to the now-remote likelihood of Baltar as a Cylon involves the manner of Baltar and Caprica-Six's relationship as opposed to [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer]] and Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]. If we suppose as a certainty that both Baltar and Tyrol are human, then why does Baltar find himself with a virtual Six after she dies, while Tyrol does not find a virtual Boomer walking about after Boomer's death? Both humans find themselves denying their love, only to recant their claim later. What makes the Baltar-Six arrangement so strikingly different? Why, at all, have these virtual Six and Baltar incarnations appeared in the first place? If Baltar were a Cylon (albeit a model unknown to any other Cylon, which would stretch the plausibility of the nature of their collective thought process per "Downloaded"), would the love between two Cylons cause a "feedback loop" of emotion to spill over between the two Cylons, creating the virtual consciousnesses? Or, assuming that Baltar is fully human, if Cylons revive (medically) a dead human (as Baltar should be, given the destruction of his home and everything in it ''except him''), would such a revival cause the virtual consciousnesses to emerge? In contrast, Tyrol has not died (although he suffers a near-death by Dr. Baltar's hand in "[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]") which may support this weaker, but faintly plausible concept of Baltar's true nature.

==Update: Interview with the production team provides a new twist...==

*{{spoilli|According to interviews with Grace Park, Dean Stockwell, and Tricia Helfer, the remaining Cylons are so secret that even the seven models known to the audience don't know who the last five are.}}

==Baltar as an "Agent of God"==
Baltar's actions when forced by his virtual Six to repent and worship the Cylon version of [[God]] leaves several significant questions as to the nature of both the virtual Six and Baltar's nature.

In the episode, "[[The Hand of God]]", Baltar makes an educated guess at the specific target to be destroyed on the [[tylium]] refinery without knowing any significant data on the site. Baltar only receives encouragement from his virtual Six to trust in her belief. In "[[Six Degrees of Separation]]," viewers see a stricken and nearly-criminally exposed Baltar repent to the virtual Six just as Lt. Gaeta arrives to confirm his innocence. In the same episode, the virtual Six disappears in anger just as the [[Shelly Godfrey]] copy arrives (with a suggestion that the virtual Six ''knew'' (or summoned) the Godfrey model to arrive. The Godfrey model disappears just as the virtual Six returns as Baltar is repenting.

The episode "[[Downloaded]]" strongly suggests that the virtual copies of [[Caprica Six]] and Baltar that [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations|haunt their opposite interests]] seem to be psychological remnants of the pair's intensive emotional connection. But what if there is more to this than psychology? Episode events surrounding the [[Sacred Scrolls]] and Laura Roslin's quest for the [[Tomb of Athena]] confirm that the Colonials have a spiritual or prophetic element that has guided them to the data that now places them in a true general path to Earth. What forces are driving Baltar beyond his own egotism? What is the nature of the virtual Six and Baltar? Neither Baltar nor Caprica Six know why they appear, and both virtual beings appear to have knowledge beyond that of what the living being they haunt should know. If Baltar is being influenced by the Cylon God (or some cybernetic influence known by neither Cylon or Colonial), there suggests a new thread to the Baltar-as-Cylon speculation that goes beyond the mere creation of a Baltar model. However, in the podcast Ron Moore speaks of the virtual Baltar as simply a hallucination, while interviews and podcasts Moore consistently states that the origin of the virtual Six is supposed to be deliberately vague.

==Baltar as "Psychologically Cylon"==

In a sort of cross between the Agent of God theory and the Cylon model theory, there may be the possibility that Baltar is, post-Caprica attack, psychologically Cylon even if not physically so. He may have, at the time of the attack, had a near-death experience (of the type known to occur with humans), and this could have still interfered with the download of Caprica-Six. If this is the case, it calls into question the nature of Cylon souls, as it would suggest that they are more similar to the human variety than previously believed. The resulting hallucinations experienced by both Caprica-Six and Baltar therefore would not require Baltar to be physically a Cylon, much as the Agent of God theory does not.

However, what may have been exchanged between the two--and the behavior of Caprica-Six in future episodes will be telling--is their psychological species identity, to some degree. After the attack on Caprica, Baltar is driven to protect Cylon interests by his virtual Six, but Caprica-Six is driven to protect human interests (albeit in a warped way). This renders Baltar at least in part "psychologically Cylon," as his new conscience and instincts drive him (when he isn't thinking of himself!) to protect Cylon interests at the expense of his physical identity. It even becomes possible that the psychological conflict he is experiencing between the forcefully "Cylonized" parts of his conscience and whatever remaining humanity is in him is at the root of his addiction to painkillers...that it becomes a way in which he tries to numb or lessen the conflict or perhaps even take himself out of action without resorting to a suicide that would go against his strong self-preservation instinct.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]