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Talk:The Twelve Colonies of Kobol/Archive3

2011-03-17T04:30:11Z

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== Merge proposal ==

This article, and the articles for each of the Twelve Colonies, are all very short, and I don't see any of them expanding substantially in the near future. I think it would make for a nice looking, meaty article if we merged in each of the individual colony articles with this one under first-level headings. How say you all? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:50, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I know this looks weird and kind of dumb. I'm still fiddling. It's easy to revert if the whole thing ends up being too hideous to bear. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:17, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

[[image:Banner_unknown1.gif|left|75px]][[image:Banner_unknown2.gif|right|75px]]
: I like the idea and whats up now. If we knew more about each colony, it would look nicer, but until then I think this is fine. Now... What to do with these other two banners? Now, the two colonies without banners are Leo and Aquarius, the lion and the water-bearer. Both of these symbols could be a water-bearer, I guess, but I think the black and white one looks like he has whisters, there and that shape at the top looks more ear-like. That would leave the blue and red one to be the water bearer, which I think makes sense enough. Think we could drop those in with a note as to their speculative nature, or best not to? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:27, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::I'm leaving this one up to [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]], our resident flag-hunter. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The two colonies without banners is Aquarius and whatever the colonial name is for Libra. I saw in the mini-series they mentioned a colony called "ICON" alongside of "PICON" so I'm a little weirded out. As for Leonis, that flag has been found. I did a picture search in google for the zodiac's constellation and found the flag's symbol looked exactly like what I have designated. I can't remember, but I believe the constellation for Libra looked quite similar to the black one. Since we don't yet know as of yet what is the name for the Libra colony, I have left it blank. [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 01:46, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:At least we know it isn't Ophiuchi or something. Roslin identifies Libra in the Tomb of Athena map room, although she doesn't give its modern name. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:59, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Realizing that it's still being worked on, it looks awful right now. You can't tell which banner goes to which colony, for one thing. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 08:30, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Personally, I don't really like the combination of all 12 colonies together either since there is no set border and down the road we will have pictures relating to each colony. This will make it slower to download. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 12:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The problem, in my opinion, is that there's little to do at the main article other than simply list the colonies, and the majority of the individual colonies are stub-like in length. As for images, Caprica is the only planet we've seen thus far and probably the only one we're likely to see (unless we get Scorpion in a flashback in Pegasus or something). One thing we can do, if it becomes necessary, is link to full-length articles from just underneath the first-level headings.

:As for the banners, I agree that they could be confusing but I rather like them right now. Do either of you think it coudl be re-arranged in a better manner (maybe if they didn't alternate sides? But then there'd be a lot more wasted space)? Or is it a lost cause in your opinions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:20, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::Yeah, you could try putting all the banners on the right. See how it looks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 14:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::There, that's what they look like right-aligned. Frankly, I think they look better alternating. I don't find it confusing, and the wasted space bugs me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::Hate to say it, but I don't like it at all. The banners overlap with the previous colony's "box", there are no clear markers indicating where one section begins and another ends, it just looks bad. (Part of the problem is that we don't have much information about many of the colonies at this point.) --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:07, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::It'd be better if we could insert a line across the entire page, and have the colony name under that line, along with the banner on the right. Then each colony would have a neat, easily readable section. I don't know if Wiki markup is capable of that though. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:10, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::I still think it's a better option than thirteen articles that are completely insubstantial on their own. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I added captions to some of the banners, and in the process deleted some of the <nowiki><div></nowiki> markup. Wikipedia recommends against using HTML ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_markup_with_HTML]), and I've been trying to learn from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_image_syntax Extended image syntax] page. I can't figure out why a new section like <nowiki>==Caprica==</nowiki> doesn't appear on the same level as its banner. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:09, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:Ah ha! The wonders of '''<nowiki> </nowiki>'''! What do you guys think of the formatting now? --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:28, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::My HTML/CSS was not used lightly. That's really the one way to get the banners at the section heading level as I did. Frankly this seems like a more cumbersome version of my right-aligned attempt. I really dislike the caption boxes, too.
::I have a new idea: Rather than use the (rather long) banners, we can grab the icons from each, along with the background colors, and use them. I've created nine high-resolution versions from QuintusCinna's originals, which you can link to below:
::[http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/aerelon.png Aerelon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/canceron.png Canceron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/caprica.png Caprica], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/gemenon.png Gemenon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/picon.png Picon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/sagittaron.png Sagittaron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpion.png Scorpion], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/tauron.png Tauron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/virgon.png Virgon]
::These could be scaled down to almost any size and still look nice. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:35, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Without caption boxes, it's not clear what the banners are. I know it seems self-explanatory to us, but for someone who's never seen them before, it's not. I'll take a look at the icons in a bit. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 17:03, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I find repeating "This is the Banner of X" to be tedious, and the red background to be jarring. Couldn't we simply note that the banner/icon/flag/colors of the colony is provided to the right? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:06, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Peter. You've saved us all. As I said earlier, I liked it when the banner appeared to be hanging from the red line under its colony's name. I share Peter's dislike for tons of white space and alternating the sides seemed to create the least of that. However, if we just had the emblem and colors from each flag, we could do it below the red line as Fang seems to like, and not have this huge, long graphic. Maybe we can then link the full banner pics and, if we get enough information that a given colony's article wouldn't be a stub, we can display it there. Does all that make sense? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I like it with banners to right, with titling, albeit a little redundant. Not sure how to deal with the "white space" of many areas, but we're really not going to get them filled until we get more data, so that is that. I feel it's informative enough as it stands, but I'll leave the formatting arguments alone. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:52, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

== Which flag is which? ==

A close viewing of [[Colonial Day]] indicates that the flag currently labeled as [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]] belongs to Safiya Sanne's seat - either Picon or Leonis; and that the black flag belongs to Robin Wenutu's seat (Canceron), and that VIrgon's flag is a white field with a green inner stripe and yellow outer stripe. I'm curious as to how QuintusCinna came to his conclusion that the delegates aren't seated at their apprporiate flags, since I don't know any other evidence linking particular flags to colonies. I guess Scorpion is pretty obvious, though. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:34, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:Don't trust the banners lining up with those they represent in [[Colonial Day]]. The reason I say this is that [[Tom Zarek]] is in one area of the room and his very obvious banner for Sagitarron is completely in another area. This is the same for Virgon's banner and their representative. There are 3 different questions I carry thanks to the shows I have watched. In the mini-series we see the banners are in this order from left to right: [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Virgon|Virgon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], Scorpion, Aquaria(?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]], Libra (?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Sagittaron|Sagittaron]], [[Canceron]] (?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Leonis|Leonis]]. Is this in the order that the colonies signed the unification treaty or is the order for the flags random or is it in the order they were nuked? Though I am sure the producers, directors, and such just put them up in random order, it is now a sense of fact for the show. If we were to believe they were placed up there, the banners must be up there in some order that is according to military protocol for flag bearing. In Colonial Day I add 2 more questions. We see that the banners are behind the delegates in a different order than in the mini-series. This means they were either a) put up randomly or b) have a separate purpose than those shown at the end of the mini-series (nuked, treaty order, or other). Then we see that the delegates are put in a different order than the banners behind them. The Gemenon delegate is clearly seen toward the middle and the Gemenon flag is clearly in a different area. The same questions come up for the delegates: are they randomly placed or is there reason. It's not alphabetical, and placements of delegates and banners in every society is always in some sort of traditional order. I hope that the Battlestar Galactica producers, writers, and such will be able to answer this though I suspect they won't because they have REAL lives. As for the Picon flag, the constellation looks quite similar to the picon banner and the same goes for Tauron's with Taurus. I have no doubt with those. The Libra's icon can be seen in this picture [http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HorseAstrology/AstrologySymbol.gif] 2 clockwise from Sagittarius. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 1:12, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

== Libris = Libran? ==

Guys, gals, and bots, got this e-mail from one of our keen-eyed visitors:

: In episode 403 ?The Ties That Bind?, the Libran colony?s name is revealed in the scene with Lee Adama and Tom Zarek in the Quorum of the Twelve chambers at 18 minutes 40-43 seconds.

: Lee places the classified file that Zarek has given him on top of the Libran delegate?s nameplate immediately to his right. However, one can clearly see the symbol for Libran at the far right of the nameplate and the letters ?BRAN? with the ?B? partially obscured. There is no other colony that ends in this combination of letters. I?d argue that the symbol is definitive.

: Additionally, in David Bassom?s The Official Companion Season One, the colony is also called ?Libran? on page 86.

: It would be great if you could confirm this for yourselves and add, at the very least, a note drawing fans attention to this nameplate.

If anyone can just confirm this information, let's implement the change. Thanks! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

The article says that Libran is the colony name because of a ship being registered to that colony. The article cites SciFi.com as the source. "The Space Park, a passenger liner in the Fleet, is of Libran registry (SciFi.com). "
--[[User:Jonathan|Jonathan]] 19:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
:The meaning there is that "Libran" is the adjectival form of "Libris". Like Caprica -> Caprican. But given the visual evidence now, we can change the colony name. Appears to be pretty definite. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:39, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

:It looks to me more like the props department made a mistake, putting the adjective rather than the nounal form on the nameplate. It would seem odd that the adjective and nounal forms could be the same word. Also, the Battlestar Galactica Official Magazine called the planet "Libris." I don't think that the "official" magazine would make such a blatant error.

== Current activity in the Colonies ==

I recall the Cylons mentioning that they abandoned the 12 colonies in guilt, but there is little chance I'll ever get the exact source episode where I heard this. Two things: first, does this ring a bell for anyone? and second, if my memory was correct, isn't this worth mentioning somewhere in this article? [[User:Blue Rook|Blue Rook]] 07:06, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

== Population ==

The article currently accepts 20 billion as the population of the Twelve Colonies at the time of the attacks based on Tigh's statement in the "Resistance" webisodes. However, in the recent episode "A Disquiet Folllows My Soul" Gaeta and Kara talk about there being 50 billion people. How do we reconcile these two numbers in the article and, most importantly, which one do we canonise for use in the article? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

== Aquaria = Aquarion! ==

[[Image:Itscalledaquarion.PNG|right|thumb|200px|Aquarion.]]
Who changed Aquarion back to ''Aquaria''? The name ''Aquaria'' is a Mary McDonnell mispronunciation (much in the same vein as Leoben ''Conroy''). I have clear visual evidence from the props used on the series (sold on the Propworx Ebay auction), that the colony's name is written as '''Aquarion''' and not Aquaria.

To the right are at least three props (that I know of) from the series that were sold on Ebay, that demostrate the colony's name: The Quorum delegate name plate and an identity pass from [[Colonial Day]], and the Quorum name plate from the [[Season 4 (2008-09)|Season Four]] [[Quorum of Twelve (RDM)|Quorum]] [[User:Runic code|Runic code]] 15:51, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

:According to Serge's Twitter, both are correct. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 01:35, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

::That'll do for me :). [[User:Runic code|Runic code]] 14:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

== Pictures of natives and some notes ==
I removed all the pictures of natives because a) they were a bit arbitrary to begin with and b) by now we have enough pictures of the planets or at least some of their cities.

I also removed the notes that Caprica, Tauron and Scorpion are the only colonies depicted in the series. This information is a bit outdated since ''The Plan'' aired and will probably be unnecessary once ''Caprica'' fully kicks in.

I also reorganized some of the colony's entries: Information about the planet comes first, then about its culture, population and places and after that information about quorum delegates and fleet population is given. Many of the entries could probably still need a bigger clean-up, though. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 16:10, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

: Awesome start, and I completely agree that the other articles will need cleanup. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:28, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

:: I did an even bigger revision. The article is reorganized and the entries of the single colonies are cleaned up and rewritten. I hope the text is better structured and more accessible than the previous version. Would be great if someone could have a closer look at it, though. Not a native speaker. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 00:43, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

== Serge's Twitter accout ==

Has anybody else been following him/it? According to him, Gemenon and Caprica share an orbit and the star system of the Colonies has four stars. While certainly official, what is the canonical status of his comments? Should we make changes to reflect this? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:51, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
: Well, this is certainly a new source... It's interesting because I'm really not very comfortable with a fictional Twitter account being quoted as canon, particularly since we don't know if the people behind said account are using actual information from the production or not. I'm thinking that the Twitter account in question should be quoted anyway, since people are going to do that anyway, but we need to note that the source may or may not be accurate—as the source is only a method of using social network to promoting the series... nothing more.
: If, on the other hand, we were talking about something tweeted by Jane Espenson or a cast member, then that'd would certainly have more weight. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 02:57, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
The Caprican is used as a source I see. Why not Serge? Serge is obviously maintained by one of the writers of Caprica.--[User:Tpin12345|tpin]]
:: Sooo... has there been any decision as to whether Serge and/or The Caprican are reliable sources? --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 01:15, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
::: The Caprican is reliable. Natalie Stark, Vesta, Baxter Sarno, V-Match, New Cap City, holoband sleepers, Themis, the memorial in the park, Little Tauron, and other things were all mentioned there days or weeks before the episodes featuring them aired. And there's now an article with more detail about the Tauron Civil War and the origin of the term "dirteater", which will no doubt be borne out by the series. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:19, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
: Regarding Serge, I'd say we should look at it on a case by case basis. There are some chunks of information that can be reasonably expected to be verified within the show (e.g. Gemenon as Caprica's twin planet). Other tidbits that are more vague or obscure should remain in notes or trivia sections, especially if on-screen information sort of contradicts them (e.g. the whole Tauron City vs. Minos thing). Of course, a case by case basis is always prone to personal opinions and the like but I'd run with it for the time being. It would help if we knew for sure who's actually running Serge, though. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 20:38, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
:: I agree with this course of action. I haven't found out who runs the Serge twitter yet. I know who it isn't though. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 23:47, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Serge just tweeted the capital cities of all Twelve Colonies. (Interestingly enough, "Libran and Aquarion (sic) don't have official capitals.") This is great info...but argh, should we post it?! -- [[User:Liquidcross|Liquidcross]] 01:45, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

== Star System Map ==

I'd love to have a map of the star system of the Colonies. Maybe someone up in Vancouver loves us and we'll see one in ''Caprica''. However, I'm not sure if we should keep the one from the RPG. It doesn't really fit with any descriptions we've seen on screen or heard from sources like Jane Espenson and Serge.

Some of the discrepancies: There's only one star as opposed to three (or four); all of the colonies are actual planets or moons, no other stellar bodies; some colonies orbit gas giants we've never heard about but none orbits Ragnar; Caprica and Gemenon don't share an orbit; last but not least Libran is spelled as "Libris". -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 18:38, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
: I agree. This map is an interesting piece of art, but since the RPG isn't canon, the map is fan art, so we should remove it. --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 01:14, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
: Pull it, per the arguments above. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:14, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

== Libran vs Tauron City ==

[[Image:Libran.png|thumb]] [[Image:TauronCity.JPG|thumb]]
As BlueResistance noted, the city that was thought to show Libran in "The Plan" bears a striking resemblance to Tauron City (as seen in "Know Thy Enemy"). I don't think there was a caption in the "The Plan" - the city was simply seen when the Hybrid talked about Libran. I'd say they're supposed to be the same city. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 13:37, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:It's possible, but I'm inclined to disagree. During the Hybrid's "burning" roll call, at least two of the Colonies unambiguously line up with what's on screen: "the harbors of Picon" and "the cities of Caprica" are spoken along with shots of a harbor and of Caprica City. Also, she (it?) says, "The pastures of Tauron are burning" pretty early, so it would be kind of odd to wait so long between saying something about Tauron and showing it. I'm guessing that the production recycled the shot as a cost-saving measure, and as something they could get away with relatively easily, since it's unlikely that they'll show Tauron City again, if at all. It wouldn't be the first CG error in ''Galactica''/''Caprica''. Anyway, let's see what other comments come in before changing images again. - [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 16:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify my point of view: I agree that it is likely that it was originally intended to show Libran. However, unlike Gemenon or Picon later on, it was never directly labeled as such. We simply don't know for sure. To say that it was Tauron City all along is, in my book, much less of a stretch than to say that Tauron City looks nearly identical to a city on Libran. And the fact that the city was originally thought to be Libran is still mentioned in the article on [[Tauron City]]. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 19:48, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Just to add another level of complexity to it... There is a five decade difference between the two photos. We could assume that the Cylon War probably decimated these cities and they had to rebuild. Thus, there may ''not'' be an error here, per se... just a visual oddity. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:59, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
::::Another difference is that while the city seen in The Plan is located on a very flat terrain with nothing breaking the horizon, several mountains and/or hills can be seen surrounding Tauron City. The differences in the terrain should be taken into consideration. -- [[User:Azure Owl|Azure Owl]] 20:27, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::How about if we just keep the original ''Plan'' screen cap as Libran and the ''Caprica'' screen cap as Tauron City, and leave it at that? There are enough differences to count each as representing separate places, even if it's clear that the CG people were working from their ''Plan'' image when making Tauron City. -- [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 22:01, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::: I concur. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 22:33, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

== Latest edit (and, I guess, Serge again) ==

I'm wondering whether we should revert the [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29&curid=1080&diff=194025&oldid=193837 latest edit]. While it adds some interesting information, I have two qualms with it.

First of all there are quite a bit of spelling, grammar and formatting mistakes that would needed to be looked at. Second: None of that information is verified since these links only lead to Serge's account, not specific tweets. Given the load of information that Serge unleashes, I'd say we should be precise. (And I also don't think we need to add ''every'' single bit of trivia that comes up there). -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 03:28, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

: Concur. Pull it, find the exact tweets in question, cite it, rewrite it... the whole nine AUs. Also, I don't think we need to add ''every'' single bit of trivia, either... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 03:30, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

::I'm beginning to think that what Serge is saying is mostly true. But I guess we might as well wait until its confirmed right? [[User:CoreyDanian|Corey "Shadow" Danian]] 09:15, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

:::Everything Serge says so far has lined up with the show and The Caprican. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:27, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

:::But obviously we should cite specific tweets for verifiability. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:36, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

JFYI: I made a big clean-up of the latest edits. Again: The new information wasn't cited properly (only stating "the Caprican" [sic]), wasn't reasonably put into the existing text and/or lacked sentence structure. I also threw some stuff out that I couldn't find in the latest articles. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 07:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

==Pointing out the word "Gemenese"==

I also removed the odd bit that "Gemenese" is the adjective for Gemenon. That should become clear while reading that paragraph, IMO. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 07:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:No, it has to be stated clearly and directly. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:37, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:: Why, exactly? We don't state it for any of the other Colonies and the word already appears in the text. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 14:46, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::: Because it's rather notable in form, we don't know the adjective for many of the other Colonies (if, for example, "Leonan" finally gets stated on the show and not just Serge's twitter, we should note it too), without such a statement not enough attention is drawn to it in the section as is, and without such a statement someone might think we're using a random adjective. The possibility of it not getting across has to be as close to 0% as we can make it. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:02, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:::: Okay, personally I really don't get why it is ''that'' important ("not enough attention", "has to be as close to 0%") to state the adjective of this world in its introductory paragraph - show, don't tell? Besides, at the moment people still might think that we make it up, because there's no citation for it. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 15:13, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::: I doubt people would think that, as that would be us making a false claim rather than just using a placeholder (as the article currently does with "Aquarian" and used to do with "Leonisian"), but I will add a citation of The Captain's Hand, which is the first episode it was mentioned in as far as I can remember. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:17, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::: To make my point clear: I don't see why the part about the adjective belongs into the first paragraph. In all other colony entries (Aerilon, Aquarion, Libran), linguistic information like that is put in the note section. If it ''has'' to be stated (which I still doubt) it should follow suit. Of course, by then the word is already used four times within the article itself. IMO that makes it a bit redundant. But I'd like others to weigh in, because obviously we both are on the very opposite sides of an argument here. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 15:27, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::: IMO, the unique form of this adjective is interesting enough to be noted, but it's not interesting enough to be noted in the section ''before'', well, the Notes section. --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 15:48, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::: That would put it after uses of the word in the section, making it a redundant note as compared to having it before them. It's not odd this way. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:09, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::: Per that argument we should give up notes sections entirely, because most notes clarify something that is mentioned earlier in an article. Thought about it I agree with Pedda: It's okay to be noted. However, it doesn't belong in the first paragraph (or the article itself) were it looks as if it were one of the most important things to learn about the planet (which it is simply not, as far as I'm concerned). -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 17:11, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::: That's not a reasonable extension of my argument. (head stratch) This is language usage. Saying the adjective is Gemenese logically goes before actually using that word. It's not like anything in a Notes section. And of course the correct language usage is one of the most primary things to learn about the planet. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:22, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::: Honestly, I want the article to be as helpful to readers as possible. If I was a new reader coming here for reference material and saw that sentence in a Notes section instead of the first paragraph, I would think "Why is that there?" and possibly create an account just so that I could put it in the first paragraph. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:57, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::: Why is it not a reasonable extension? People might just as well ask why we call a planet Aquaria, Libran, Aerilon, all of which are clarified and explained in notes sections. That's language usage, as well. I don't see why "Gemenese" is any different.
::::::::::: And the whole "If I were a new user" argument is IMO a bit shallow but definitely works both ways: I'd wonder why that tidbit of information is treated so differently from comparable notes. And why a simple adjective is regarded as that important that it has to be explained in the article's introduction. Also, thinking about it, I'd say that a separate note actually draws more attention to a subject - I'm quite fond of notes that way. But I ''really'' think we both are going round in circles here. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 06:07, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::: Because using the word Gemenese as the adjective and then saying "Gemenese is the adjective" looks funny. It's not like using a planet's name and then explaining where it comes from. It's bad sentence structure. Good sentence structure is the other way around. An explanation of where the word "Gemenese" comes from would go in the Notes, not this statement of the fact of it. And there's no good argument for leaving it out entirely, because it's used so sparsely elsewhere in the section that it could easily fail to register with someone as ''the'' word.
:::::::::::: It seems obvious and intuitive to me that it belongs in the first sentence because it is one of the most primary and basic things about the planet, it is literally one of the first things about it. Other things follow on from there. Not having it where it is right now seems fundamentally wrong to my senses and sensibilities, like missing a step on the stairs. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::: Well, I think it's bad ''text'' structure to talk about adjectives in a paragraph that is otherwise concerned with the layout of a planet. And I still simply don't get why it's supposed to be that important to inform readers about that word right away. I don't think you'll find that in similar articles on Earth nations that have rather unusual adjectives. And what exactly "follows on from there"? Also I still think that the word is used often enough in the text to make readers notice it.
::::::::::::: '''But look''': I still disagree with you. Strongly. You disagree with me. We both turn each other's arguments around and that's leading us exactly ''nowhere''. I really think by now someone else (=Joe?) should weigh in (=settle on) what to do - and we both should accept that decision. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 19:41, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::: Holy crap, this was a mountain out of a molehill! A little creative text editing solves the entire problem. So I did it. -- [[User:Liquidcross|Liquidcross]] 19:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::::: Fine. It's not that important to spell it out, it just bugged me. It would look incredibly odd in the Notes section, so let's leave it out of there. If there was ever an infobox setup for each Colony, Adjective would be appropriate as a section along with Ancient Name, Capital, etc. But there currently isn't one. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 00:35, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::: Wait a minute. I just thought of one minor change I could make that would sort out everything and no one could object to. "Gemenon was one of the poorer colonies and its people, the Gemenese, were known for their religious fundamentalism". I just realized, they're not just people of Gemenon, they're a race, and that's more important than a national adjective. And now it's a natural part of a sentence instead of having a sentence devoted to it, which was not so natural. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 00:47, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::: Also, if we need to point out that the adjective wasn't generated from us, why not just use the <nowiki><ref></nowiki> method? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 01:13, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

== New info from The Caprican ==

There is a [http://showblogs.syfy.com/caprican/lifestyle/top-5-off-beat-vacation-destinations.php new article] in The Caprican with information about 5 cities in the Colonies. Before incorporating any of it into the article I was wondering how I should approach the citation.

Should we use a single numbered footnote repeated all over the page, or several different numbered footnotes referring to the same source?

I ask because I have the suspicion that some of the info is going to be relevant in the show. In particular, that description about Gemenon’s second most important city and its temple complex. I can’t shake the feeling that the show is going to end up visiting it.

Oh… and it’s the second time they’ve talked about the damn empty stadium in Themis. What’s up with that? -- [[User:Azure Owl|Azure Owl]] 21:06, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
: I'd use normal <nowiki><ref></nowiki> tags. After all, the information will be scattered around the page.
: Also (as per the discussion above), please keep in mind not to add every single detail - some general information should suffice. As far as I see it, these articles here are about planets, not their cities. If those cities will show up in ''Caprica'' we can always create articles for them and add detailed information. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 21:21, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

== Picture descriptions + main picture ==

[[Image:Bsyashuman.jpg|thumb|Current main picture of the article.]]
I removed the episode information from the picture descriptions. I think they look much cleaner and more concise that way - especially given that the article is already filled with a lot of links and the new episode citation method would make the descriptions even more cramped. I really don't know whether there's an official style guide regarding picture desriptions but articles throughout the wiki use (and even mix) both methods (with and without episodes).

I also wanted to bring attention to the '''main picture''' of the article. I put it there and I think it's quite nice, aesthetically and stuff. But it doesn't really represent the Twelve Colonies that well. Might there be a better alternative? Maybe a picture of the Colonial Seal ''without'' the "Battlestar Galactica - BSG 62" text or something like that? -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 09:53, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:Main picture: How 'bout [http://media.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/File:Colonial_Seal.svg this]? And I agree that picture descriptions should not include episode titles, unless it's really necessary to put that picture in the right context. --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 15:41, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:: Oh, like that picture. Fits well with the flags. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 16:01, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:capricanflagandseal.jpg|thumb|Caprican flag with Colonial Seal, prior to unification.]]
:: Hmm... Not so sure about this, simply because I haven't seen any evidence of this symbol in ''Caprica''. As I recall, it comes after the whole unification thing, or at least it's supposed to. Still, I love the idea. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 01:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
::: I ''know'' we've seen the seal here and there in Caprica, but I can't quite remember where-- at the Pyramid matches, maybe? I don't have time to rewatch every episode of Caprica hunting around for it, unfortunately, but it's in the background sometimes. -- [[User:Rjinswand|Rjinswand]] 06:36, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::: Yeah, it was seen during the Pyramid match in "Rebirth" on a Caprican flag. Of course we don't know whether it already represents the Colonies as whole at that time - but since the flag looks exactly the same 58 years later, I'd say that's not too much of a stretch to assume. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 07:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
::::: Also, I just found a Colonial Seal on a flag of its own, without any Caprican symbols, in the Pyramid match in Imperfections of Memory. Here's a ''really'' bad Hulu screenshot of it: http://thaumic.net/bsg/pyramid.jpg -- [[User:Rjinswand|Rjinswand]] 08:53, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::: Just checked that out, the flag says "Caprica City Police" around the seal. Still I can't imagine that it's just a Caprican symbol prior to unification. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 09:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::: The symbol may have been adopted later. It's within the realm of possibility... and still its presence at the pyramid games in ''Caprica'' are certainly worth noting. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 12:44, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::: Yeah, that's possible. But it ''seems'' unlikely to me, that a unified nation of twelve planets would represent itself with the logo of only one of their worlds. Anyway: Do we keep the Seal as the main picture? It's definitely the symbol of the Colonies at the time of BSG, and as that a rather prominent one. And at least it's ''around'' at the times of "Caprica". -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 13:09, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::We know that the colonies were partially united in various federations and alliances prior to the Cylon war - just not all twelve of them in one single political structure. Maybe the union to which Caprica (and some subset of the other worlds) belonged was symbolized by the phoenix seal, and later came to include all twelve of the colonies? Think about how formerly independent states like Texas and Hawaii came to be included in the flag of the original 13 american colonies. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 06:51, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::I'm almost inclined to agree. Serge's Twitter answered a question about a prop that I'd been wondering about (someone asked about it a while ago) when the GDD searched the Graystone house, it had a notice on the top saying "By Special Order of the Intercolonial Courts of Libran." Now Obviously Caprica had it's own courts as seen by Joseph Adama, but it would seem that certain extenuating cases were taken before the Libran court system, implying some sort of loose affiliation between certain colonies. Serge even states "Intercolonial treaties mandated joint courts years ago." So it's possible there are some connections between them, like our own United Nations, but there is no singular government yet.
::::::::::Also of note, the "Colonial Anthem" is a piece that existed prior to the unification, so why not the seal? I'm sure they spent a lot of time deciding what they really wanted to signify their unification as the Cylons bombed their cities. heh--[[User:LeonisLeo|LeonisLeo]] 21:43, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::::I think the logo may have been carried from Kobol. There were twelve tribes, and twelve feather things. I believe its a either that or just something to represent the Colonies, because whether or not they like each other, they're all human and from Kobol. It's like the image of Earth. I really doubt it's a Caprican symbol. However, Caprica is the most populous Colony, so perhaps when they took a vote on the new symbol, Caprica steamrollered everyone. But I would say the first option, originally a Kobollian thing. --[[User:Presstilty|Presstilty]] 04:30, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

== More picture reassigning? ==

The pyramid-dominated cityscape that we all thought had been Virgon might actually be Gemenon. Doug Drexler labeled the image as such (http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2010/06/27/designing-for-sci-fi/), and the broadcast version of ''The Plan'' clearly assigns it to Gemenon. Thoughts? ----[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 14:50, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
:If no one has any comments on this in the next week, I'll re-label the picture and move it to the Gemenon section. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 22:43, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
:: I'm good with that. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:22, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

== Economics in the Twelve Colonies ==

Is it just me, but are a LOT of the twelve colonies vying for the dubious honour of the title of 'The Poorest Colony"?
Aerilon, Canceron, Gemenon, Saggitaron and Tauron! I can only imagine that the wealthy colonies were incredibly wealthy to have that serious an imbalance in wealth distribution! --[[User:Apolloin|Apolloin]] 07:31, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

== Gemenon Trivia - Europe ==

I was just looking at Gemenon, when I noticed, that there is a good portion of Europe visible there. [http://i55.tinypic.com/117yyx0.jpg Europe on Gemenon]
--[[User:Deus|Deus]] 15:12, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

== Before we jump the gun . . . ==

Of course having the new Twelve Colonies map from Jane Espenson and Kevin Grazer is like striking gold--but it shouldn't be treated as a 100% canon source just yet. As [[User:Pst001|Pst001]] mentioned [[Talk:The_Twelve_Colonies_of_Kobol/Archive2#.22official.22_map_of_the_twelve_colonies|here]] yesterday, quoting an interview with Espenson and Grazer, the map is only "quasi-canon," and the writers may diverge from the map if it serves their purposes. Before proceeding, we should discuss whether or not to use the map, and if so, if it should be referenced in a way that's different from how absolute canon (i.e., on screen in an episode or movie) information is referenced. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 21:07, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
: Thank you for starting this discussion! I completely agree that we should proceed with care and diligence when including this new information, considering that it is "quasi-canon." I haven't had the opportunity to look over the map as thoroughly as I have liked, so I'm leaving the discussion up to everyone else who has. Good hunting. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:15, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
::boy i guess i should have posted my thread on the right page... anywho. i'm happy to have the map as much as anybody (i put in my preorder), but i hope the information as already added hasn't been copied verbatim. [[User:Pst001|Pst001]] 21:28, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
::: Well, [[User:Frylock86|Frylock86]] has been adding in the information... with spelling errors and the like, it seems. Not too big of an issue, but the stuff needs to be copy edited. And certainly peer reviewed per BlueResistance. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:02, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
:One of the things I've been trying to study is the information we'd been going on before and after this map. One source is 'The Plan' where the hybrid claims "Twelve Battles, Three Stars" which seems to coincide with what Serge's Twitter says "The 12 colonies circle a star cluster. 3 stars with one outlying," he also states that "Ragnar is the key" and that "two worlds circle it." Neither of these prove true. Instead we have two binary stars that circle both each-other and each set, and Ragnar only has one 'world' which isn't even a colony. If these prove to be MORE cannon than the map (which I'd be inclined to agree) then it throws out the map as less than quasi cannon and just simply incorrect. I work at a Jurassic Park website called Jurassic Park Legacy and one of the difficulties we had there was establishing accurate maps. What we had to do was throw out almost every map that is seen and go by what is actually true to the film. For instance, the first Dinosaurs on the tour were "Dilophosaurus" and yet the map shown during the electric fences failing shows the first habitat to be Brachiosaurs habitat. We then decided this could be true and that the answer was that certain small species that are difficult to see might have been on the tour several times (so you might eventually catch a glimpse of them) and that what we see in the shut down were the MAIN fences which then branch off into a smaller network of fences. This, plus the fact that the Visitor Center had only just been built and the computer system had barely been running at all as stated by Ray Arnold made it so we could agree that perhaps what was on the computer was what had been intended, but was not built due to this and that reason. plus a ton of other reasons. So I agree. We must go slowly and be sure with what we add. Very little is established in the series. Perhaps Blood & Chrome will show more. --[[User:LeonisLeo|LeonisLeo]] 21:35, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

== Colony facts: infobox vs. image? ==

I think it would clean up the article a bit if the information at the beginning of each colony (i.e. Patron God, Ancient Name, etc.) were arranged in an infobox. Or otherwise just upload the image from [[Battlestar Galactica Map of the 12 Colonies|where the info comes from]], since the "Colors and symbol" are already included. [[w:io9|io9]] has a pretty good scan of the map [http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/io9/2011/01/map_of_the_colonies_1.jpg here], but the text is too tiny so I guess we'll have to wait till someone gets a better scan. Thoughts?--[[User:DrWho42|DrWho42]] 21:07, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

==Demonyms and Adjectives==
So I was just curious (none of this was canon) what you guys thought of demonyms and adjectives for the Colonies.

Colony-Demonym-Adjective

Kobol-Kobolite/Kobolian/Kobolings-Kobolan

Aerilon-Aerilonian-Aerilonian
Aquaria-Aquarian-Aquarish
Canceron-Canceronian-Canceronish
Caprica-Caprican-Caprican
Gemenon-Gemenard-Gemenese
Leonis-Leonan-Leonish
Libran-Libranite-Libran
Picon-Piconite-Piconish
Sagittaron-Sagittaron-Sagittarian
Scorpia-Scorpian-Scorpionish
Tauron-Tauron-Taurish
Virgon-Virgins-Virgese

Talk:The Twelve Colonies of Kobol/Archive3

2011-03-17T04:24:35Z

Presstilty: /* Demonyms and Adjectives */

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== Merge proposal ==

This article, and the articles for each of the Twelve Colonies, are all very short, and I don't see any of them expanding substantially in the near future. I think it would make for a nice looking, meaty article if we merged in each of the individual colony articles with this one under first-level headings. How say you all? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:50, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I know this looks weird and kind of dumb. I'm still fiddling. It's easy to revert if the whole thing ends up being too hideous to bear. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:17, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

[[image:Banner_unknown1.gif|left|75px]][[image:Banner_unknown2.gif|right|75px]]
: I like the idea and whats up now. If we knew more about each colony, it would look nicer, but until then I think this is fine. Now... What to do with these other two banners? Now, the two colonies without banners are Leo and Aquarius, the lion and the water-bearer. Both of these symbols could be a water-bearer, I guess, but I think the black and white one looks like he has whisters, there and that shape at the top looks more ear-like. That would leave the blue and red one to be the water bearer, which I think makes sense enough. Think we could drop those in with a note as to their speculative nature, or best not to? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:27, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::I'm leaving this one up to [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]], our resident flag-hunter. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The two colonies without banners is Aquarius and whatever the colonial name is for Libra. I saw in the mini-series they mentioned a colony called "ICON" alongside of "PICON" so I'm a little weirded out. As for Leonis, that flag has been found. I did a picture search in google for the zodiac's constellation and found the flag's symbol looked exactly like what I have designated. I can't remember, but I believe the constellation for Libra looked quite similar to the black one. Since we don't yet know as of yet what is the name for the Libra colony, I have left it blank. [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 01:46, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:At least we know it isn't Ophiuchi or something. Roslin identifies Libra in the Tomb of Athena map room, although she doesn't give its modern name. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:59, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Realizing that it's still being worked on, it looks awful right now. You can't tell which banner goes to which colony, for one thing. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 08:30, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Personally, I don't really like the combination of all 12 colonies together either since there is no set border and down the road we will have pictures relating to each colony. This will make it slower to download. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 12:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The problem, in my opinion, is that there's little to do at the main article other than simply list the colonies, and the majority of the individual colonies are stub-like in length. As for images, Caprica is the only planet we've seen thus far and probably the only one we're likely to see (unless we get Scorpion in a flashback in Pegasus or something). One thing we can do, if it becomes necessary, is link to full-length articles from just underneath the first-level headings.

:As for the banners, I agree that they could be confusing but I rather like them right now. Do either of you think it coudl be re-arranged in a better manner (maybe if they didn't alternate sides? But then there'd be a lot more wasted space)? Or is it a lost cause in your opinions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:20, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::Yeah, you could try putting all the banners on the right. See how it looks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 14:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::There, that's what they look like right-aligned. Frankly, I think they look better alternating. I don't find it confusing, and the wasted space bugs me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::Hate to say it, but I don't like it at all. The banners overlap with the previous colony's "box", there are no clear markers indicating where one section begins and another ends, it just looks bad. (Part of the problem is that we don't have much information about many of the colonies at this point.) --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:07, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::It'd be better if we could insert a line across the entire page, and have the colony name under that line, along with the banner on the right. Then each colony would have a neat, easily readable section. I don't know if Wiki markup is capable of that though. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:10, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::I still think it's a better option than thirteen articles that are completely insubstantial on their own. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I added captions to some of the banners, and in the process deleted some of the <nowiki><div></nowiki> markup. Wikipedia recommends against using HTML ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_markup_with_HTML]), and I've been trying to learn from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_image_syntax Extended image syntax] page. I can't figure out why a new section like <nowiki>==Caprica==</nowiki> doesn't appear on the same level as its banner. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:09, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:Ah ha! The wonders of '''<nowiki> </nowiki>'''! What do you guys think of the formatting now? --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:28, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::My HTML/CSS was not used lightly. That's really the one way to get the banners at the section heading level as I did. Frankly this seems like a more cumbersome version of my right-aligned attempt. I really dislike the caption boxes, too.
::I have a new idea: Rather than use the (rather long) banners, we can grab the icons from each, along with the background colors, and use them. I've created nine high-resolution versions from QuintusCinna's originals, which you can link to below:
::[http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/aerelon.png Aerelon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/canceron.png Canceron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/caprica.png Caprica], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/gemenon.png Gemenon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/picon.png Picon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/sagittaron.png Sagittaron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpion.png Scorpion], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/tauron.png Tauron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/virgon.png Virgon]
::These could be scaled down to almost any size and still look nice. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:35, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Without caption boxes, it's not clear what the banners are. I know it seems self-explanatory to us, but for someone who's never seen them before, it's not. I'll take a look at the icons in a bit. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 17:03, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I find repeating "This is the Banner of X" to be tedious, and the red background to be jarring. Couldn't we simply note that the banner/icon/flag/colors of the colony is provided to the right? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:06, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Peter. You've saved us all. As I said earlier, I liked it when the banner appeared to be hanging from the red line under its colony's name. I share Peter's dislike for tons of white space and alternating the sides seemed to create the least of that. However, if we just had the emblem and colors from each flag, we could do it below the red line as Fang seems to like, and not have this huge, long graphic. Maybe we can then link the full banner pics and, if we get enough information that a given colony's article wouldn't be a stub, we can display it there. Does all that make sense? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I like it with banners to right, with titling, albeit a little redundant. Not sure how to deal with the "white space" of many areas, but we're really not going to get them filled until we get more data, so that is that. I feel it's informative enough as it stands, but I'll leave the formatting arguments alone. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:52, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

== Which flag is which? ==

A close viewing of [[Colonial Day]] indicates that the flag currently labeled as [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]] belongs to Safiya Sanne's seat - either Picon or Leonis; and that the black flag belongs to Robin Wenutu's seat (Canceron), and that VIrgon's flag is a white field with a green inner stripe and yellow outer stripe. I'm curious as to how QuintusCinna came to his conclusion that the delegates aren't seated at their apprporiate flags, since I don't know any other evidence linking particular flags to colonies. I guess Scorpion is pretty obvious, though. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:34, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:Don't trust the banners lining up with those they represent in [[Colonial Day]]. The reason I say this is that [[Tom Zarek]] is in one area of the room and his very obvious banner for Sagitarron is completely in another area. This is the same for Virgon's banner and their representative. There are 3 different questions I carry thanks to the shows I have watched. In the mini-series we see the banners are in this order from left to right: [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Virgon|Virgon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], Scorpion, Aquaria(?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]], Libra (?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Sagittaron|Sagittaron]], [[Canceron]] (?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Leonis|Leonis]]. Is this in the order that the colonies signed the unification treaty or is the order for the flags random or is it in the order they were nuked? Though I am sure the producers, directors, and such just put them up in random order, it is now a sense of fact for the show. If we were to believe they were placed up there, the banners must be up there in some order that is according to military protocol for flag bearing. In Colonial Day I add 2 more questions. We see that the banners are behind the delegates in a different order than in the mini-series. This means they were either a) put up randomly or b) have a separate purpose than those shown at the end of the mini-series (nuked, treaty order, or other). Then we see that the delegates are put in a different order than the banners behind them. The Gemenon delegate is clearly seen toward the middle and the Gemenon flag is clearly in a different area. The same questions come up for the delegates: are they randomly placed or is there reason. It's not alphabetical, and placements of delegates and banners in every society is always in some sort of traditional order. I hope that the Battlestar Galactica producers, writers, and such will be able to answer this though I suspect they won't because they have REAL lives. As for the Picon flag, the constellation looks quite similar to the picon banner and the same goes for Tauron's with Taurus. I have no doubt with those. The Libra's icon can be seen in this picture [http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HorseAstrology/AstrologySymbol.gif] 2 clockwise from Sagittarius. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 1:12, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

== Libris = Libran? ==

Guys, gals, and bots, got this e-mail from one of our keen-eyed visitors:

: In episode 403 ?The Ties That Bind?, the Libran colony?s name is revealed in the scene with Lee Adama and Tom Zarek in the Quorum of the Twelve chambers at 18 minutes 40-43 seconds.

: Lee places the classified file that Zarek has given him on top of the Libran delegate?s nameplate immediately to his right. However, one can clearly see the symbol for Libran at the far right of the nameplate and the letters ?BRAN? with the ?B? partially obscured. There is no other colony that ends in this combination of letters. I?d argue that the symbol is definitive.

: Additionally, in David Bassom?s The Official Companion Season One, the colony is also called ?Libran? on page 86.

: It would be great if you could confirm this for yourselves and add, at the very least, a note drawing fans attention to this nameplate.

If anyone can just confirm this information, let's implement the change. Thanks! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

The article says that Libran is the colony name because of a ship being registered to that colony. The article cites SciFi.com as the source. "The Space Park, a passenger liner in the Fleet, is of Libran registry (SciFi.com). "
--[[User:Jonathan|Jonathan]] 19:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
:The meaning there is that "Libran" is the adjectival form of "Libris". Like Caprica -> Caprican. But given the visual evidence now, we can change the colony name. Appears to be pretty definite. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:39, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

:It looks to me more like the props department made a mistake, putting the adjective rather than the nounal form on the nameplate. It would seem odd that the adjective and nounal forms could be the same word. Also, the Battlestar Galactica Official Magazine called the planet "Libris." I don't think that the "official" magazine would make such a blatant error.

== Current activity in the Colonies ==

I recall the Cylons mentioning that they abandoned the 12 colonies in guilt, but there is little chance I'll ever get the exact source episode where I heard this. Two things: first, does this ring a bell for anyone? and second, if my memory was correct, isn't this worth mentioning somewhere in this article? [[User:Blue Rook|Blue Rook]] 07:06, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

== Population ==

The article currently accepts 20 billion as the population of the Twelve Colonies at the time of the attacks based on Tigh's statement in the "Resistance" webisodes. However, in the recent episode "A Disquiet Folllows My Soul" Gaeta and Kara talk about there being 50 billion people. How do we reconcile these two numbers in the article and, most importantly, which one do we canonise for use in the article? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

== Aquaria = Aquarion! ==

[[Image:Itscalledaquarion.PNG|right|thumb|200px|Aquarion.]]
Who changed Aquarion back to ''Aquaria''? The name ''Aquaria'' is a Mary McDonnell mispronunciation (much in the same vein as Leoben ''Conroy''). I have clear visual evidence from the props used on the series (sold on the Propworx Ebay auction), that the colony's name is written as '''Aquarion''' and not Aquaria.

To the right are at least three props (that I know of) from the series that were sold on Ebay, that demostrate the colony's name: The Quorum delegate name plate and an identity pass from [[Colonial Day]], and the Quorum name plate from the [[Season 4 (2008-09)|Season Four]] [[Quorum of Twelve (RDM)|Quorum]] [[User:Runic code|Runic code]] 15:51, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

:According to Serge's Twitter, both are correct. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 01:35, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

::That'll do for me :). [[User:Runic code|Runic code]] 14:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

== Pictures of natives and some notes ==
I removed all the pictures of natives because a) they were a bit arbitrary to begin with and b) by now we have enough pictures of the planets or at least some of their cities.

I also removed the notes that Caprica, Tauron and Scorpion are the only colonies depicted in the series. This information is a bit outdated since ''The Plan'' aired and will probably be unnecessary once ''Caprica'' fully kicks in.

I also reorganized some of the colony's entries: Information about the planet comes first, then about its culture, population and places and after that information about quorum delegates and fleet population is given. Many of the entries could probably still need a bigger clean-up, though. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 16:10, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

: Awesome start, and I completely agree that the other articles will need cleanup. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:28, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

:: I did an even bigger revision. The article is reorganized and the entries of the single colonies are cleaned up and rewritten. I hope the text is better structured and more accessible than the previous version. Would be great if someone could have a closer look at it, though. Not a native speaker. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 00:43, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

== Serge's Twitter accout ==

Has anybody else been following him/it? According to him, Gemenon and Caprica share an orbit and the star system of the Colonies has four stars. While certainly official, what is the canonical status of his comments? Should we make changes to reflect this? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:51, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
: Well, this is certainly a new source... It's interesting because I'm really not very comfortable with a fictional Twitter account being quoted as canon, particularly since we don't know if the people behind said account are using actual information from the production or not. I'm thinking that the Twitter account in question should be quoted anyway, since people are going to do that anyway, but we need to note that the source may or may not be accurate—as the source is only a method of using social network to promoting the series... nothing more.
: If, on the other hand, we were talking about something tweeted by Jane Espenson or a cast member, then that'd would certainly have more weight. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 02:57, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
The Caprican is used as a source I see. Why not Serge? Serge is obviously maintained by one of the writers of Caprica.--[User:Tpin12345|tpin]]
:: Sooo... has there been any decision as to whether Serge and/or The Caprican are reliable sources? --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 01:15, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
::: The Caprican is reliable. Natalie Stark, Vesta, Baxter Sarno, V-Match, New Cap City, holoband sleepers, Themis, the memorial in the park, Little Tauron, and other things were all mentioned there days or weeks before the episodes featuring them aired. And there's now an article with more detail about the Tauron Civil War and the origin of the term "dirteater", which will no doubt be borne out by the series. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:19, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
: Regarding Serge, I'd say we should look at it on a case by case basis. There are some chunks of information that can be reasonably expected to be verified within the show (e.g. Gemenon as Caprica's twin planet). Other tidbits that are more vague or obscure should remain in notes or trivia sections, especially if on-screen information sort of contradicts them (e.g. the whole Tauron City vs. Minos thing). Of course, a case by case basis is always prone to personal opinions and the like but I'd run with it for the time being. It would help if we knew for sure who's actually running Serge, though. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 20:38, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
:: I agree with this course of action. I haven't found out who runs the Serge twitter yet. I know who it isn't though. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 23:47, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Serge just tweeted the capital cities of all Twelve Colonies. (Interestingly enough, "Libran and Aquarion (sic) don't have official capitals.") This is great info...but argh, should we post it?! -- [[User:Liquidcross|Liquidcross]] 01:45, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

== Star System Map ==

I'd love to have a map of the star system of the Colonies. Maybe someone up in Vancouver loves us and we'll see one in ''Caprica''. However, I'm not sure if we should keep the one from the RPG. It doesn't really fit with any descriptions we've seen on screen or heard from sources like Jane Espenson and Serge.

Some of the discrepancies: There's only one star as opposed to three (or four); all of the colonies are actual planets or moons, no other stellar bodies; some colonies orbit gas giants we've never heard about but none orbits Ragnar; Caprica and Gemenon don't share an orbit; last but not least Libran is spelled as "Libris". -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 18:38, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
: I agree. This map is an interesting piece of art, but since the RPG isn't canon, the map is fan art, so we should remove it. --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 01:14, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
: Pull it, per the arguments above. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:14, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

== Libran vs Tauron City ==

[[Image:Libran.png|thumb]] [[Image:TauronCity.JPG|thumb]]
As BlueResistance noted, the city that was thought to show Libran in "The Plan" bears a striking resemblance to Tauron City (as seen in "Know Thy Enemy"). I don't think there was a caption in the "The Plan" - the city was simply seen when the Hybrid talked about Libran. I'd say they're supposed to be the same city. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 13:37, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:It's possible, but I'm inclined to disagree. During the Hybrid's "burning" roll call, at least two of the Colonies unambiguously line up with what's on screen: "the harbors of Picon" and "the cities of Caprica" are spoken along with shots of a harbor and of Caprica City. Also, she (it?) says, "The pastures of Tauron are burning" pretty early, so it would be kind of odd to wait so long between saying something about Tauron and showing it. I'm guessing that the production recycled the shot as a cost-saving measure, and as something they could get away with relatively easily, since it's unlikely that they'll show Tauron City again, if at all. It wouldn't be the first CG error in ''Galactica''/''Caprica''. Anyway, let's see what other comments come in before changing images again. - [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 16:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify my point of view: I agree that it is likely that it was originally intended to show Libran. However, unlike Gemenon or Picon later on, it was never directly labeled as such. We simply don't know for sure. To say that it was Tauron City all along is, in my book, much less of a stretch than to say that Tauron City looks nearly identical to a city on Libran. And the fact that the city was originally thought to be Libran is still mentioned in the article on [[Tauron City]]. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 19:48, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Just to add another level of complexity to it... There is a five decade difference between the two photos. We could assume that the Cylon War probably decimated these cities and they had to rebuild. Thus, there may ''not'' be an error here, per se... just a visual oddity. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:59, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
::::Another difference is that while the city seen in The Plan is located on a very flat terrain with nothing breaking the horizon, several mountains and/or hills can be seen surrounding Tauron City. The differences in the terrain should be taken into consideration. -- [[User:Azure Owl|Azure Owl]] 20:27, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::How about if we just keep the original ''Plan'' screen cap as Libran and the ''Caprica'' screen cap as Tauron City, and leave it at that? There are enough differences to count each as representing separate places, even if it's clear that the CG people were working from their ''Plan'' image when making Tauron City. -- [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 22:01, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::: I concur. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 22:33, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

== Latest edit (and, I guess, Serge again) ==

I'm wondering whether we should revert the [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29&curid=1080&diff=194025&oldid=193837 latest edit]. While it adds some interesting information, I have two qualms with it.

First of all there are quite a bit of spelling, grammar and formatting mistakes that would needed to be looked at. Second: None of that information is verified since these links only lead to Serge's account, not specific tweets. Given the load of information that Serge unleashes, I'd say we should be precise. (And I also don't think we need to add ''every'' single bit of trivia that comes up there). -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 03:28, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

: Concur. Pull it, find the exact tweets in question, cite it, rewrite it... the whole nine AUs. Also, I don't think we need to add ''every'' single bit of trivia, either... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 03:30, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

::I'm beginning to think that what Serge is saying is mostly true. But I guess we might as well wait until its confirmed right? [[User:CoreyDanian|Corey "Shadow" Danian]] 09:15, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

:::Everything Serge says so far has lined up with the show and The Caprican. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:27, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

:::But obviously we should cite specific tweets for verifiability. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:36, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

JFYI: I made a big clean-up of the latest edits. Again: The new information wasn't cited properly (only stating "the Caprican" [sic]), wasn't reasonably put into the existing text and/or lacked sentence structure. I also threw some stuff out that I couldn't find in the latest articles. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 07:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

==Pointing out the word "Gemenese"==

I also removed the odd bit that "Gemenese" is the adjective for Gemenon. That should become clear while reading that paragraph, IMO. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 07:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:No, it has to be stated clearly and directly. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:37, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:: Why, exactly? We don't state it for any of the other Colonies and the word already appears in the text. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 14:46, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::: Because it's rather notable in form, we don't know the adjective for many of the other Colonies (if, for example, "Leonan" finally gets stated on the show and not just Serge's twitter, we should note it too), without such a statement not enough attention is drawn to it in the section as is, and without such a statement someone might think we're using a random adjective. The possibility of it not getting across has to be as close to 0% as we can make it. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:02, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:::: Okay, personally I really don't get why it is ''that'' important ("not enough attention", "has to be as close to 0%") to state the adjective of this world in its introductory paragraph - show, don't tell? Besides, at the moment people still might think that we make it up, because there's no citation for it. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 15:13, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::: I doubt people would think that, as that would be us making a false claim rather than just using a placeholder (as the article currently does with "Aquarian" and used to do with "Leonisian"), but I will add a citation of The Captain's Hand, which is the first episode it was mentioned in as far as I can remember. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:17, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::: To make my point clear: I don't see why the part about the adjective belongs into the first paragraph. In all other colony entries (Aerilon, Aquarion, Libran), linguistic information like that is put in the note section. If it ''has'' to be stated (which I still doubt) it should follow suit. Of course, by then the word is already used four times within the article itself. IMO that makes it a bit redundant. But I'd like others to weigh in, because obviously we both are on the very opposite sides of an argument here. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 15:27, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::: IMO, the unique form of this adjective is interesting enough to be noted, but it's not interesting enough to be noted in the section ''before'', well, the Notes section. --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 15:48, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::: That would put it after uses of the word in the section, making it a redundant note as compared to having it before them. It's not odd this way. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:09, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::: Per that argument we should give up notes sections entirely, because most notes clarify something that is mentioned earlier in an article. Thought about it I agree with Pedda: It's okay to be noted. However, it doesn't belong in the first paragraph (or the article itself) were it looks as if it were one of the most important things to learn about the planet (which it is simply not, as far as I'm concerned). -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 17:11, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::: That's not a reasonable extension of my argument. (head stratch) This is language usage. Saying the adjective is Gemenese logically goes before actually using that word. It's not like anything in a Notes section. And of course the correct language usage is one of the most primary things to learn about the planet. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:22, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::: Honestly, I want the article to be as helpful to readers as possible. If I was a new reader coming here for reference material and saw that sentence in a Notes section instead of the first paragraph, I would think "Why is that there?" and possibly create an account just so that I could put it in the first paragraph. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:57, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::: Why is it not a reasonable extension? People might just as well ask why we call a planet Aquaria, Libran, Aerilon, all of which are clarified and explained in notes sections. That's language usage, as well. I don't see why "Gemenese" is any different.
::::::::::: And the whole "If I were a new user" argument is IMO a bit shallow but definitely works both ways: I'd wonder why that tidbit of information is treated so differently from comparable notes. And why a simple adjective is regarded as that important that it has to be explained in the article's introduction. Also, thinking about it, I'd say that a separate note actually draws more attention to a subject - I'm quite fond of notes that way. But I ''really'' think we both are going round in circles here. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 06:07, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::: Because using the word Gemenese as the adjective and then saying "Gemenese is the adjective" looks funny. It's not like using a planet's name and then explaining where it comes from. It's bad sentence structure. Good sentence structure is the other way around. An explanation of where the word "Gemenese" comes from would go in the Notes, not this statement of the fact of it. And there's no good argument for leaving it out entirely, because it's used so sparsely elsewhere in the section that it could easily fail to register with someone as ''the'' word.
:::::::::::: It seems obvious and intuitive to me that it belongs in the first sentence because it is one of the most primary and basic things about the planet, it is literally one of the first things about it. Other things follow on from there. Not having it where it is right now seems fundamentally wrong to my senses and sensibilities, like missing a step on the stairs. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::: Well, I think it's bad ''text'' structure to talk about adjectives in a paragraph that is otherwise concerned with the layout of a planet. And I still simply don't get why it's supposed to be that important to inform readers about that word right away. I don't think you'll find that in similar articles on Earth nations that have rather unusual adjectives. And what exactly "follows on from there"? Also I still think that the word is used often enough in the text to make readers notice it.
::::::::::::: '''But look''': I still disagree with you. Strongly. You disagree with me. We both turn each other's arguments around and that's leading us exactly ''nowhere''. I really think by now someone else (=Joe?) should weigh in (=settle on) what to do - and we both should accept that decision. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 19:41, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::: Holy crap, this was a mountain out of a molehill! A little creative text editing solves the entire problem. So I did it. -- [[User:Liquidcross|Liquidcross]] 19:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::::: Fine. It's not that important to spell it out, it just bugged me. It would look incredibly odd in the Notes section, so let's leave it out of there. If there was ever an infobox setup for each Colony, Adjective would be appropriate as a section along with Ancient Name, Capital, etc. But there currently isn't one. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 00:35, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::: Wait a minute. I just thought of one minor change I could make that would sort out everything and no one could object to. "Gemenon was one of the poorer colonies and its people, the Gemenese, were known for their religious fundamentalism". I just realized, they're not just people of Gemenon, they're a race, and that's more important than a national adjective. And now it's a natural part of a sentence instead of having a sentence devoted to it, which was not so natural. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 00:47, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::: Also, if we need to point out that the adjective wasn't generated from us, why not just use the <nowiki><ref></nowiki> method? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 01:13, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

== New info from The Caprican ==

There is a [http://showblogs.syfy.com/caprican/lifestyle/top-5-off-beat-vacation-destinations.php new article] in The Caprican with information about 5 cities in the Colonies. Before incorporating any of it into the article I was wondering how I should approach the citation.

Should we use a single numbered footnote repeated all over the page, or several different numbered footnotes referring to the same source?

I ask because I have the suspicion that some of the info is going to be relevant in the show. In particular, that description about Gemenon’s second most important city and its temple complex. I can’t shake the feeling that the show is going to end up visiting it.

Oh… and it’s the second time they’ve talked about the damn empty stadium in Themis. What’s up with that? -- [[User:Azure Owl|Azure Owl]] 21:06, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
: I'd use normal <nowiki><ref></nowiki> tags. After all, the information will be scattered around the page.
: Also (as per the discussion above), please keep in mind not to add every single detail - some general information should suffice. As far as I see it, these articles here are about planets, not their cities. If those cities will show up in ''Caprica'' we can always create articles for them and add detailed information. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 21:21, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

== Picture descriptions + main picture ==

[[Image:Bsyashuman.jpg|thumb|Current main picture of the article.]]
I removed the episode information from the picture descriptions. I think they look much cleaner and more concise that way - especially given that the article is already filled with a lot of links and the new episode citation method would make the descriptions even more cramped. I really don't know whether there's an official style guide regarding picture desriptions but articles throughout the wiki use (and even mix) both methods (with and without episodes).

I also wanted to bring attention to the '''main picture''' of the article. I put it there and I think it's quite nice, aesthetically and stuff. But it doesn't really represent the Twelve Colonies that well. Might there be a better alternative? Maybe a picture of the Colonial Seal ''without'' the "Battlestar Galactica - BSG 62" text or something like that? -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 09:53, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:Main picture: How 'bout [http://media.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/File:Colonial_Seal.svg this]? And I agree that picture descriptions should not include episode titles, unless it's really necessary to put that picture in the right context. --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 15:41, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:: Oh, like that picture. Fits well with the flags. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 16:01, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:capricanflagandseal.jpg|thumb|Caprican flag with Colonial Seal, prior to unification.]]
:: Hmm... Not so sure about this, simply because I haven't seen any evidence of this symbol in ''Caprica''. As I recall, it comes after the whole unification thing, or at least it's supposed to. Still, I love the idea. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 01:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
::: I ''know'' we've seen the seal here and there in Caprica, but I can't quite remember where-- at the Pyramid matches, maybe? I don't have time to rewatch every episode of Caprica hunting around for it, unfortunately, but it's in the background sometimes. -- [[User:Rjinswand|Rjinswand]] 06:36, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::: Yeah, it was seen during the Pyramid match in "Rebirth" on a Caprican flag. Of course we don't know whether it already represents the Colonies as whole at that time - but since the flag looks exactly the same 58 years later, I'd say that's not too much of a stretch to assume. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 07:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
::::: Also, I just found a Colonial Seal on a flag of its own, without any Caprican symbols, in the Pyramid match in Imperfections of Memory. Here's a ''really'' bad Hulu screenshot of it: http://thaumic.net/bsg/pyramid.jpg -- [[User:Rjinswand|Rjinswand]] 08:53, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::: Just checked that out, the flag says "Caprica City Police" around the seal. Still I can't imagine that it's just a Caprican symbol prior to unification. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 09:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::: The symbol may have been adopted later. It's within the realm of possibility... and still its presence at the pyramid games in ''Caprica'' are certainly worth noting. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 12:44, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::: Yeah, that's possible. But it ''seems'' unlikely to me, that a unified nation of twelve planets would represent itself with the logo of only one of their worlds. Anyway: Do we keep the Seal as the main picture? It's definitely the symbol of the Colonies at the time of BSG, and as that a rather prominent one. And at least it's ''around'' at the times of "Caprica". -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 13:09, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::We know that the colonies were partially united in various federations and alliances prior to the Cylon war - just not all twelve of them in one single political structure. Maybe the union to which Caprica (and some subset of the other worlds) belonged was symbolized by the phoenix seal, and later came to include all twelve of the colonies? Think about how formerly independent states like Texas and Hawaii came to be included in the flag of the original 13 american colonies. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 06:51, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::I'm almost inclined to agree. Serge's Twitter answered a question about a prop that I'd been wondering about (someone asked about it a while ago) when the GDD searched the Graystone house, it had a notice on the top saying "By Special Order of the Intercolonial Courts of Libran." Now Obviously Caprica had it's own courts as seen by Joseph Adama, but it would seem that certain extenuating cases were taken before the Libran court system, implying some sort of loose affiliation between certain colonies. Serge even states "Intercolonial treaties mandated joint courts years ago." So it's possible there are some connections between them, like our own United Nations, but there is no singular government yet.
::::::::::Also of note, the "Colonial Anthem" is a piece that existed prior to the unification, so why not the seal? I'm sure they spent a lot of time deciding what they really wanted to signify their unification as the Cylons bombed their cities. heh--[[User:LeonisLeo|LeonisLeo]] 21:43, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

== More picture reassigning? ==

The pyramid-dominated cityscape that we all thought had been Virgon might actually be Gemenon. Doug Drexler labeled the image as such (http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2010/06/27/designing-for-sci-fi/), and the broadcast version of ''The Plan'' clearly assigns it to Gemenon. Thoughts? ----[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 14:50, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
:If no one has any comments on this in the next week, I'll re-label the picture and move it to the Gemenon section. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 22:43, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
:: I'm good with that. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:22, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

== Economics in the Twelve Colonies ==

Is it just me, but are a LOT of the twelve colonies vying for the dubious honour of the title of 'The Poorest Colony"?
Aerilon, Canceron, Gemenon, Saggitaron and Tauron! I can only imagine that the wealthy colonies were incredibly wealthy to have that serious an imbalance in wealth distribution! --[[User:Apolloin|Apolloin]] 07:31, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

== Gemenon Trivia - Europe ==

I was just looking at Gemenon, when I noticed, that there is a good portion of Europe visible there. [http://i55.tinypic.com/117yyx0.jpg Europe on Gemenon]
--[[User:Deus|Deus]] 15:12, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

== Before we jump the gun . . . ==

Of course having the new Twelve Colonies map from Jane Espenson and Kevin Grazer is like striking gold--but it shouldn't be treated as a 100% canon source just yet. As [[User:Pst001|Pst001]] mentioned [[Talk:The_Twelve_Colonies_of_Kobol/Archive2#.22official.22_map_of_the_twelve_colonies|here]] yesterday, quoting an interview with Espenson and Grazer, the map is only "quasi-canon," and the writers may diverge from the map if it serves their purposes. Before proceeding, we should discuss whether or not to use the map, and if so, if it should be referenced in a way that's different from how absolute canon (i.e., on screen in an episode or movie) information is referenced. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 21:07, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
: Thank you for starting this discussion! I completely agree that we should proceed with care and diligence when including this new information, considering that it is "quasi-canon." I haven't had the opportunity to look over the map as thoroughly as I have liked, so I'm leaving the discussion up to everyone else who has. Good hunting. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:15, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
::boy i guess i should have posted my thread on the right page... anywho. i'm happy to have the map as much as anybody (i put in my preorder), but i hope the information as already added hasn't been copied verbatim. [[User:Pst001|Pst001]] 21:28, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
::: Well, [[User:Frylock86|Frylock86]] has been adding in the information... with spelling errors and the like, it seems. Not too big of an issue, but the stuff needs to be copy edited. And certainly peer reviewed per BlueResistance. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:02, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
:One of the things I've been trying to study is the information we'd been going on before and after this map. One source is 'The Plan' where the hybrid claims "Twelve Battles, Three Stars" which seems to coincide with what Serge's Twitter says "The 12 colonies circle a star cluster. 3 stars with one outlying," he also states that "Ragnar is the key" and that "two worlds circle it." Neither of these prove true. Instead we have two binary stars that circle both each-other and each set, and Ragnar only has one 'world' which isn't even a colony. If these prove to be MORE cannon than the map (which I'd be inclined to agree) then it throws out the map as less than quasi cannon and just simply incorrect. I work at a Jurassic Park website called Jurassic Park Legacy and one of the difficulties we had there was establishing accurate maps. What we had to do was throw out almost every map that is seen and go by what is actually true to the film. For instance, the first Dinosaurs on the tour were "Dilophosaurus" and yet the map shown during the electric fences failing shows the first habitat to be Brachiosaurs habitat. We then decided this could be true and that the answer was that certain small species that are difficult to see might have been on the tour several times (so you might eventually catch a glimpse of them) and that what we see in the shut down were the MAIN fences which then branch off into a smaller network of fences. This, plus the fact that the Visitor Center had only just been built and the computer system had barely been running at all as stated by Ray Arnold made it so we could agree that perhaps what was on the computer was what had been intended, but was not built due to this and that reason. plus a ton of other reasons. So I agree. We must go slowly and be sure with what we add. Very little is established in the series. Perhaps Blood & Chrome will show more. --[[User:LeonisLeo|LeonisLeo]] 21:35, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

== Colony facts: infobox vs. image? ==

I think it would clean up the article a bit if the information at the beginning of each colony (i.e. Patron God, Ancient Name, etc.) were arranged in an infobox. Or otherwise just upload the image from [[Battlestar Galactica Map of the 12 Colonies|where the info comes from]], since the "Colors and symbol" are already included. [[w:io9|io9]] has a pretty good scan of the map [http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/io9/2011/01/map_of_the_colonies_1.jpg here], but the text is too tiny so I guess we'll have to wait till someone gets a better scan. Thoughts?--[[User:DrWho42|DrWho42]] 21:07, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

==Demonyms and Adjectives==
So I was just curious (none of this was canon) what you guys thought of demonyms and adjectives for the Colonies.

Colony-Demonym-Adjective

Kobol-Kobolite/Kobolian/Kobolings-Kobolan

Aerilon-Aerilonian-Aerilonian
Aquaria-Aquarian-Aquarish
Canceron-Canceronian-Canceronish
Caprica-Caprican-Caprican
Gemenon-Gemenard-Gemenese
Leonis-Leonan-Leonish
Libran-Libranite-Libran
Picon-Piconite-Piconish
Sagittaron-Sagittaron-Sagittarian
Scorpia-Scorpian-Scorpionish
Tauron-Tauron-Taurish
Virgon-Virgins-Virgese

Talk:The Twelve Colonies of Kobol/Archive3

2011-03-17T04:16:28Z

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== Merge proposal ==

This article, and the articles for each of the Twelve Colonies, are all very short, and I don't see any of them expanding substantially in the near future. I think it would make for a nice looking, meaty article if we merged in each of the individual colony articles with this one under first-level headings. How say you all? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:50, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I know this looks weird and kind of dumb. I'm still fiddling. It's easy to revert if the whole thing ends up being too hideous to bear. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:17, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

[[image:Banner_unknown1.gif|left|75px]][[image:Banner_unknown2.gif|right|75px]]
: I like the idea and whats up now. If we knew more about each colony, it would look nicer, but until then I think this is fine. Now... What to do with these other two banners? Now, the two colonies without banners are Leo and Aquarius, the lion and the water-bearer. Both of these symbols could be a water-bearer, I guess, but I think the black and white one looks like he has whisters, there and that shape at the top looks more ear-like. That would leave the blue and red one to be the water bearer, which I think makes sense enough. Think we could drop those in with a note as to their speculative nature, or best not to? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:27, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::I'm leaving this one up to [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]], our resident flag-hunter. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The two colonies without banners is Aquarius and whatever the colonial name is for Libra. I saw in the mini-series they mentioned a colony called "ICON" alongside of "PICON" so I'm a little weirded out. As for Leonis, that flag has been found. I did a picture search in google for the zodiac's constellation and found the flag's symbol looked exactly like what I have designated. I can't remember, but I believe the constellation for Libra looked quite similar to the black one. Since we don't yet know as of yet what is the name for the Libra colony, I have left it blank. [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 01:46, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:At least we know it isn't Ophiuchi or something. Roslin identifies Libra in the Tomb of Athena map room, although she doesn't give its modern name. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:59, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Realizing that it's still being worked on, it looks awful right now. You can't tell which banner goes to which colony, for one thing. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 08:30, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Personally, I don't really like the combination of all 12 colonies together either since there is no set border and down the road we will have pictures relating to each colony. This will make it slower to download. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 12:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The problem, in my opinion, is that there's little to do at the main article other than simply list the colonies, and the majority of the individual colonies are stub-like in length. As for images, Caprica is the only planet we've seen thus far and probably the only one we're likely to see (unless we get Scorpion in a flashback in Pegasus or something). One thing we can do, if it becomes necessary, is link to full-length articles from just underneath the first-level headings.

:As for the banners, I agree that they could be confusing but I rather like them right now. Do either of you think it coudl be re-arranged in a better manner (maybe if they didn't alternate sides? But then there'd be a lot more wasted space)? Or is it a lost cause in your opinions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:20, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::Yeah, you could try putting all the banners on the right. See how it looks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 14:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::There, that's what they look like right-aligned. Frankly, I think they look better alternating. I don't find it confusing, and the wasted space bugs me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::Hate to say it, but I don't like it at all. The banners overlap with the previous colony's "box", there are no clear markers indicating where one section begins and another ends, it just looks bad. (Part of the problem is that we don't have much information about many of the colonies at this point.) --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:07, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::It'd be better if we could insert a line across the entire page, and have the colony name under that line, along with the banner on the right. Then each colony would have a neat, easily readable section. I don't know if Wiki markup is capable of that though. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:10, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::I still think it's a better option than thirteen articles that are completely insubstantial on their own. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I added captions to some of the banners, and in the process deleted some of the <nowiki><div></nowiki> markup. Wikipedia recommends against using HTML ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_markup_with_HTML]), and I've been trying to learn from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_image_syntax Extended image syntax] page. I can't figure out why a new section like <nowiki>==Caprica==</nowiki> doesn't appear on the same level as its banner. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:09, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:Ah ha! The wonders of '''<nowiki> </nowiki>'''! What do you guys think of the formatting now? --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:28, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::My HTML/CSS was not used lightly. That's really the one way to get the banners at the section heading level as I did. Frankly this seems like a more cumbersome version of my right-aligned attempt. I really dislike the caption boxes, too.
::I have a new idea: Rather than use the (rather long) banners, we can grab the icons from each, along with the background colors, and use them. I've created nine high-resolution versions from QuintusCinna's originals, which you can link to below:
::[http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/aerelon.png Aerelon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/canceron.png Canceron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/caprica.png Caprica], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/gemenon.png Gemenon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/picon.png Picon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/sagittaron.png Sagittaron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpion.png Scorpion], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/tauron.png Tauron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/virgon.png Virgon]
::These could be scaled down to almost any size and still look nice. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:35, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Without caption boxes, it's not clear what the banners are. I know it seems self-explanatory to us, but for someone who's never seen them before, it's not. I'll take a look at the icons in a bit. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 17:03, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I find repeating "This is the Banner of X" to be tedious, and the red background to be jarring. Couldn't we simply note that the banner/icon/flag/colors of the colony is provided to the right? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:06, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Peter. You've saved us all. As I said earlier, I liked it when the banner appeared to be hanging from the red line under its colony's name. I share Peter's dislike for tons of white space and alternating the sides seemed to create the least of that. However, if we just had the emblem and colors from each flag, we could do it below the red line as Fang seems to like, and not have this huge, long graphic. Maybe we can then link the full banner pics and, if we get enough information that a given colony's article wouldn't be a stub, we can display it there. Does all that make sense? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I like it with banners to right, with titling, albeit a little redundant. Not sure how to deal with the "white space" of many areas, but we're really not going to get them filled until we get more data, so that is that. I feel it's informative enough as it stands, but I'll leave the formatting arguments alone. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:52, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

== Which flag is which? ==

A close viewing of [[Colonial Day]] indicates that the flag currently labeled as [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]] belongs to Safiya Sanne's seat - either Picon or Leonis; and that the black flag belongs to Robin Wenutu's seat (Canceron), and that VIrgon's flag is a white field with a green inner stripe and yellow outer stripe. I'm curious as to how QuintusCinna came to his conclusion that the delegates aren't seated at their apprporiate flags, since I don't know any other evidence linking particular flags to colonies. I guess Scorpion is pretty obvious, though. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:34, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:Don't trust the banners lining up with those they represent in [[Colonial Day]]. The reason I say this is that [[Tom Zarek]] is in one area of the room and his very obvious banner for Sagitarron is completely in another area. This is the same for Virgon's banner and their representative. There are 3 different questions I carry thanks to the shows I have watched. In the mini-series we see the banners are in this order from left to right: [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Virgon|Virgon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], Scorpion, Aquaria(?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]], Libra (?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Sagittaron|Sagittaron]], [[Canceron]] (?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Leonis|Leonis]]. Is this in the order that the colonies signed the unification treaty or is the order for the flags random or is it in the order they were nuked? Though I am sure the producers, directors, and such just put them up in random order, it is now a sense of fact for the show. If we were to believe they were placed up there, the banners must be up there in some order that is according to military protocol for flag bearing. In Colonial Day I add 2 more questions. We see that the banners are behind the delegates in a different order than in the mini-series. This means they were either a) put up randomly or b) have a separate purpose than those shown at the end of the mini-series (nuked, treaty order, or other). Then we see that the delegates are put in a different order than the banners behind them. The Gemenon delegate is clearly seen toward the middle and the Gemenon flag is clearly in a different area. The same questions come up for the delegates: are they randomly placed or is there reason. It's not alphabetical, and placements of delegates and banners in every society is always in some sort of traditional order. I hope that the Battlestar Galactica producers, writers, and such will be able to answer this though I suspect they won't because they have REAL lives. As for the Picon flag, the constellation looks quite similar to the picon banner and the same goes for Tauron's with Taurus. I have no doubt with those. The Libra's icon can be seen in this picture [http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HorseAstrology/AstrologySymbol.gif] 2 clockwise from Sagittarius. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 1:12, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

== Libris = Libran? ==

Guys, gals, and bots, got this e-mail from one of our keen-eyed visitors:

: In episode 403 ?The Ties That Bind?, the Libran colony?s name is revealed in the scene with Lee Adama and Tom Zarek in the Quorum of the Twelve chambers at 18 minutes 40-43 seconds.

: Lee places the classified file that Zarek has given him on top of the Libran delegate?s nameplate immediately to his right. However, one can clearly see the symbol for Libran at the far right of the nameplate and the letters ?BRAN? with the ?B? partially obscured. There is no other colony that ends in this combination of letters. I?d argue that the symbol is definitive.

: Additionally, in David Bassom?s The Official Companion Season One, the colony is also called ?Libran? on page 86.

: It would be great if you could confirm this for yourselves and add, at the very least, a note drawing fans attention to this nameplate.

If anyone can just confirm this information, let's implement the change. Thanks! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

The article says that Libran is the colony name because of a ship being registered to that colony. The article cites SciFi.com as the source. "The Space Park, a passenger liner in the Fleet, is of Libran registry (SciFi.com). "
--[[User:Jonathan|Jonathan]] 19:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
:The meaning there is that "Libran" is the adjectival form of "Libris". Like Caprica -> Caprican. But given the visual evidence now, we can change the colony name. Appears to be pretty definite. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:39, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

:It looks to me more like the props department made a mistake, putting the adjective rather than the nounal form on the nameplate. It would seem odd that the adjective and nounal forms could be the same word. Also, the Battlestar Galactica Official Magazine called the planet "Libris." I don't think that the "official" magazine would make such a blatant error.

== Current activity in the Colonies ==

I recall the Cylons mentioning that they abandoned the 12 colonies in guilt, but there is little chance I'll ever get the exact source episode where I heard this. Two things: first, does this ring a bell for anyone? and second, if my memory was correct, isn't this worth mentioning somewhere in this article? [[User:Blue Rook|Blue Rook]] 07:06, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

== Population ==

The article currently accepts 20 billion as the population of the Twelve Colonies at the time of the attacks based on Tigh's statement in the "Resistance" webisodes. However, in the recent episode "A Disquiet Folllows My Soul" Gaeta and Kara talk about there being 50 billion people. How do we reconcile these two numbers in the article and, most importantly, which one do we canonise for use in the article? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

== Aquaria = Aquarion! ==

[[Image:Itscalledaquarion.PNG|right|thumb|200px|Aquarion.]]
Who changed Aquarion back to ''Aquaria''? The name ''Aquaria'' is a Mary McDonnell mispronunciation (much in the same vein as Leoben ''Conroy''). I have clear visual evidence from the props used on the series (sold on the Propworx Ebay auction), that the colony's name is written as '''Aquarion''' and not Aquaria.

To the right are at least three props (that I know of) from the series that were sold on Ebay, that demostrate the colony's name: The Quorum delegate name plate and an identity pass from [[Colonial Day]], and the Quorum name plate from the [[Season 4 (2008-09)|Season Four]] [[Quorum of Twelve (RDM)|Quorum]] [[User:Runic code|Runic code]] 15:51, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

:According to Serge's Twitter, both are correct. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 01:35, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

::That'll do for me :). [[User:Runic code|Runic code]] 14:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

== Pictures of natives and some notes ==
I removed all the pictures of natives because a) they were a bit arbitrary to begin with and b) by now we have enough pictures of the planets or at least some of their cities.

I also removed the notes that Caprica, Tauron and Scorpion are the only colonies depicted in the series. This information is a bit outdated since ''The Plan'' aired and will probably be unnecessary once ''Caprica'' fully kicks in.

I also reorganized some of the colony's entries: Information about the planet comes first, then about its culture, population and places and after that information about quorum delegates and fleet population is given. Many of the entries could probably still need a bigger clean-up, though. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 16:10, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

: Awesome start, and I completely agree that the other articles will need cleanup. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:28, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

:: I did an even bigger revision. The article is reorganized and the entries of the single colonies are cleaned up and rewritten. I hope the text is better structured and more accessible than the previous version. Would be great if someone could have a closer look at it, though. Not a native speaker. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 00:43, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

== Serge's Twitter accout ==

Has anybody else been following him/it? According to him, Gemenon and Caprica share an orbit and the star system of the Colonies has four stars. While certainly official, what is the canonical status of his comments? Should we make changes to reflect this? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:51, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
: Well, this is certainly a new source... It's interesting because I'm really not very comfortable with a fictional Twitter account being quoted as canon, particularly since we don't know if the people behind said account are using actual information from the production or not. I'm thinking that the Twitter account in question should be quoted anyway, since people are going to do that anyway, but we need to note that the source may or may not be accurate—as the source is only a method of using social network to promoting the series... nothing more.
: If, on the other hand, we were talking about something tweeted by Jane Espenson or a cast member, then that'd would certainly have more weight. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 02:57, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
The Caprican is used as a source I see. Why not Serge? Serge is obviously maintained by one of the writers of Caprica.--[User:Tpin12345|tpin]]
:: Sooo... has there been any decision as to whether Serge and/or The Caprican are reliable sources? --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 01:15, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
::: The Caprican is reliable. Natalie Stark, Vesta, Baxter Sarno, V-Match, New Cap City, holoband sleepers, Themis, the memorial in the park, Little Tauron, and other things were all mentioned there days or weeks before the episodes featuring them aired. And there's now an article with more detail about the Tauron Civil War and the origin of the term "dirteater", which will no doubt be borne out by the series. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:19, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
: Regarding Serge, I'd say we should look at it on a case by case basis. There are some chunks of information that can be reasonably expected to be verified within the show (e.g. Gemenon as Caprica's twin planet). Other tidbits that are more vague or obscure should remain in notes or trivia sections, especially if on-screen information sort of contradicts them (e.g. the whole Tauron City vs. Minos thing). Of course, a case by case basis is always prone to personal opinions and the like but I'd run with it for the time being. It would help if we knew for sure who's actually running Serge, though. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 20:38, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
:: I agree with this course of action. I haven't found out who runs the Serge twitter yet. I know who it isn't though. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 23:47, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Serge just tweeted the capital cities of all Twelve Colonies. (Interestingly enough, "Libran and Aquarion (sic) don't have official capitals.") This is great info...but argh, should we post it?! -- [[User:Liquidcross|Liquidcross]] 01:45, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

== Star System Map ==

I'd love to have a map of the star system of the Colonies. Maybe someone up in Vancouver loves us and we'll see one in ''Caprica''. However, I'm not sure if we should keep the one from the RPG. It doesn't really fit with any descriptions we've seen on screen or heard from sources like Jane Espenson and Serge.

Some of the discrepancies: There's only one star as opposed to three (or four); all of the colonies are actual planets or moons, no other stellar bodies; some colonies orbit gas giants we've never heard about but none orbits Ragnar; Caprica and Gemenon don't share an orbit; last but not least Libran is spelled as "Libris". -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 18:38, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
: I agree. This map is an interesting piece of art, but since the RPG isn't canon, the map is fan art, so we should remove it. --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 01:14, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
: Pull it, per the arguments above. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:14, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

== Libran vs Tauron City ==

[[Image:Libran.png|thumb]] [[Image:TauronCity.JPG|thumb]]
As BlueResistance noted, the city that was thought to show Libran in "The Plan" bears a striking resemblance to Tauron City (as seen in "Know Thy Enemy"). I don't think there was a caption in the "The Plan" - the city was simply seen when the Hybrid talked about Libran. I'd say they're supposed to be the same city. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 13:37, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:It's possible, but I'm inclined to disagree. During the Hybrid's "burning" roll call, at least two of the Colonies unambiguously line up with what's on screen: "the harbors of Picon" and "the cities of Caprica" are spoken along with shots of a harbor and of Caprica City. Also, she (it?) says, "The pastures of Tauron are burning" pretty early, so it would be kind of odd to wait so long between saying something about Tauron and showing it. I'm guessing that the production recycled the shot as a cost-saving measure, and as something they could get away with relatively easily, since it's unlikely that they'll show Tauron City again, if at all. It wouldn't be the first CG error in ''Galactica''/''Caprica''. Anyway, let's see what other comments come in before changing images again. - [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 16:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify my point of view: I agree that it is likely that it was originally intended to show Libran. However, unlike Gemenon or Picon later on, it was never directly labeled as such. We simply don't know for sure. To say that it was Tauron City all along is, in my book, much less of a stretch than to say that Tauron City looks nearly identical to a city on Libran. And the fact that the city was originally thought to be Libran is still mentioned in the article on [[Tauron City]]. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 19:48, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Just to add another level of complexity to it... There is a five decade difference between the two photos. We could assume that the Cylon War probably decimated these cities and they had to rebuild. Thus, there may ''not'' be an error here, per se... just a visual oddity. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:59, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
::::Another difference is that while the city seen in The Plan is located on a very flat terrain with nothing breaking the horizon, several mountains and/or hills can be seen surrounding Tauron City. The differences in the terrain should be taken into consideration. -- [[User:Azure Owl|Azure Owl]] 20:27, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::How about if we just keep the original ''Plan'' screen cap as Libran and the ''Caprica'' screen cap as Tauron City, and leave it at that? There are enough differences to count each as representing separate places, even if it's clear that the CG people were working from their ''Plan'' image when making Tauron City. -- [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 22:01, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::: I concur. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 22:33, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

== Latest edit (and, I guess, Serge again) ==

I'm wondering whether we should revert the [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29&curid=1080&diff=194025&oldid=193837 latest edit]. While it adds some interesting information, I have two qualms with it.

First of all there are quite a bit of spelling, grammar and formatting mistakes that would needed to be looked at. Second: None of that information is verified since these links only lead to Serge's account, not specific tweets. Given the load of information that Serge unleashes, I'd say we should be precise. (And I also don't think we need to add ''every'' single bit of trivia that comes up there). -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 03:28, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

: Concur. Pull it, find the exact tweets in question, cite it, rewrite it... the whole nine AUs. Also, I don't think we need to add ''every'' single bit of trivia, either... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 03:30, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

::I'm beginning to think that what Serge is saying is mostly true. But I guess we might as well wait until its confirmed right? [[User:CoreyDanian|Corey "Shadow" Danian]] 09:15, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

:::Everything Serge says so far has lined up with the show and The Caprican. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:27, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

:::But obviously we should cite specific tweets for verifiability. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:36, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

JFYI: I made a big clean-up of the latest edits. Again: The new information wasn't cited properly (only stating "the Caprican" [sic]), wasn't reasonably put into the existing text and/or lacked sentence structure. I also threw some stuff out that I couldn't find in the latest articles. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 07:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

==Pointing out the word "Gemenese"==

I also removed the odd bit that "Gemenese" is the adjective for Gemenon. That should become clear while reading that paragraph, IMO. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 07:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:No, it has to be stated clearly and directly. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:37, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:: Why, exactly? We don't state it for any of the other Colonies and the word already appears in the text. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 14:46, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::: Because it's rather notable in form, we don't know the adjective for many of the other Colonies (if, for example, "Leonan" finally gets stated on the show and not just Serge's twitter, we should note it too), without such a statement not enough attention is drawn to it in the section as is, and without such a statement someone might think we're using a random adjective. The possibility of it not getting across has to be as close to 0% as we can make it. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:02, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:::: Okay, personally I really don't get why it is ''that'' important ("not enough attention", "has to be as close to 0%") to state the adjective of this world in its introductory paragraph - show, don't tell? Besides, at the moment people still might think that we make it up, because there's no citation for it. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 15:13, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::: I doubt people would think that, as that would be us making a false claim rather than just using a placeholder (as the article currently does with "Aquarian" and used to do with "Leonisian"), but I will add a citation of The Captain's Hand, which is the first episode it was mentioned in as far as I can remember. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:17, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::: To make my point clear: I don't see why the part about the adjective belongs into the first paragraph. In all other colony entries (Aerilon, Aquarion, Libran), linguistic information like that is put in the note section. If it ''has'' to be stated (which I still doubt) it should follow suit. Of course, by then the word is already used four times within the article itself. IMO that makes it a bit redundant. But I'd like others to weigh in, because obviously we both are on the very opposite sides of an argument here. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 15:27, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::: IMO, the unique form of this adjective is interesting enough to be noted, but it's not interesting enough to be noted in the section ''before'', well, the Notes section. --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 15:48, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::: That would put it after uses of the word in the section, making it a redundant note as compared to having it before them. It's not odd this way. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:09, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::: Per that argument we should give up notes sections entirely, because most notes clarify something that is mentioned earlier in an article. Thought about it I agree with Pedda: It's okay to be noted. However, it doesn't belong in the first paragraph (or the article itself) were it looks as if it were one of the most important things to learn about the planet (which it is simply not, as far as I'm concerned). -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 17:11, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::: That's not a reasonable extension of my argument. (head stratch) This is language usage. Saying the adjective is Gemenese logically goes before actually using that word. It's not like anything in a Notes section. And of course the correct language usage is one of the most primary things to learn about the planet. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:22, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::: Honestly, I want the article to be as helpful to readers as possible. If I was a new reader coming here for reference material and saw that sentence in a Notes section instead of the first paragraph, I would think "Why is that there?" and possibly create an account just so that I could put it in the first paragraph. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:57, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::: Why is it not a reasonable extension? People might just as well ask why we call a planet Aquaria, Libran, Aerilon, all of which are clarified and explained in notes sections. That's language usage, as well. I don't see why "Gemenese" is any different.
::::::::::: And the whole "If I were a new user" argument is IMO a bit shallow but definitely works both ways: I'd wonder why that tidbit of information is treated so differently from comparable notes. And why a simple adjective is regarded as that important that it has to be explained in the article's introduction. Also, thinking about it, I'd say that a separate note actually draws more attention to a subject - I'm quite fond of notes that way. But I ''really'' think we both are going round in circles here. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 06:07, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::: Because using the word Gemenese as the adjective and then saying "Gemenese is the adjective" looks funny. It's not like using a planet's name and then explaining where it comes from. It's bad sentence structure. Good sentence structure is the other way around. An explanation of where the word "Gemenese" comes from would go in the Notes, not this statement of the fact of it. And there's no good argument for leaving it out entirely, because it's used so sparsely elsewhere in the section that it could easily fail to register with someone as ''the'' word.
:::::::::::: It seems obvious and intuitive to me that it belongs in the first sentence because it is one of the most primary and basic things about the planet, it is literally one of the first things about it. Other things follow on from there. Not having it where it is right now seems fundamentally wrong to my senses and sensibilities, like missing a step on the stairs. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::: Well, I think it's bad ''text'' structure to talk about adjectives in a paragraph that is otherwise concerned with the layout of a planet. And I still simply don't get why it's supposed to be that important to inform readers about that word right away. I don't think you'll find that in similar articles on Earth nations that have rather unusual adjectives. And what exactly "follows on from there"? Also I still think that the word is used often enough in the text to make readers notice it.
::::::::::::: '''But look''': I still disagree with you. Strongly. You disagree with me. We both turn each other's arguments around and that's leading us exactly ''nowhere''. I really think by now someone else (=Joe?) should weigh in (=settle on) what to do - and we both should accept that decision. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 19:41, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::: Holy crap, this was a mountain out of a molehill! A little creative text editing solves the entire problem. So I did it. -- [[User:Liquidcross|Liquidcross]] 19:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::::: Fine. It's not that important to spell it out, it just bugged me. It would look incredibly odd in the Notes section, so let's leave it out of there. If there was ever an infobox setup for each Colony, Adjective would be appropriate as a section along with Ancient Name, Capital, etc. But there currently isn't one. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 00:35, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::: Wait a minute. I just thought of one minor change I could make that would sort out everything and no one could object to. "Gemenon was one of the poorer colonies and its people, the Gemenese, were known for their religious fundamentalism". I just realized, they're not just people of Gemenon, they're a race, and that's more important than a national adjective. And now it's a natural part of a sentence instead of having a sentence devoted to it, which was not so natural. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 00:47, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::: Also, if we need to point out that the adjective wasn't generated from us, why not just use the <nowiki><ref></nowiki> method? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 01:13, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

== New info from The Caprican ==

There is a [http://showblogs.syfy.com/caprican/lifestyle/top-5-off-beat-vacation-destinations.php new article] in The Caprican with information about 5 cities in the Colonies. Before incorporating any of it into the article I was wondering how I should approach the citation.

Should we use a single numbered footnote repeated all over the page, or several different numbered footnotes referring to the same source?

I ask because I have the suspicion that some of the info is going to be relevant in the show. In particular, that description about Gemenon’s second most important city and its temple complex. I can’t shake the feeling that the show is going to end up visiting it.

Oh… and it’s the second time they’ve talked about the damn empty stadium in Themis. What’s up with that? -- [[User:Azure Owl|Azure Owl]] 21:06, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
: I'd use normal <nowiki><ref></nowiki> tags. After all, the information will be scattered around the page.
: Also (as per the discussion above), please keep in mind not to add every single detail - some general information should suffice. As far as I see it, these articles here are about planets, not their cities. If those cities will show up in ''Caprica'' we can always create articles for them and add detailed information. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 21:21, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

== Picture descriptions + main picture ==

[[Image:Bsyashuman.jpg|thumb|Current main picture of the article.]]
I removed the episode information from the picture descriptions. I think they look much cleaner and more concise that way - especially given that the article is already filled with a lot of links and the new episode citation method would make the descriptions even more cramped. I really don't know whether there's an official style guide regarding picture desriptions but articles throughout the wiki use (and even mix) both methods (with and without episodes).

I also wanted to bring attention to the '''main picture''' of the article. I put it there and I think it's quite nice, aesthetically and stuff. But it doesn't really represent the Twelve Colonies that well. Might there be a better alternative? Maybe a picture of the Colonial Seal ''without'' the "Battlestar Galactica - BSG 62" text or something like that? -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 09:53, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:Main picture: How 'bout [http://media.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/File:Colonial_Seal.svg this]? And I agree that picture descriptions should not include episode titles, unless it's really necessary to put that picture in the right context. --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 15:41, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:: Oh, like that picture. Fits well with the flags. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 16:01, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:capricanflagandseal.jpg|thumb|Caprican flag with Colonial Seal, prior to unification.]]
:: Hmm... Not so sure about this, simply because I haven't seen any evidence of this symbol in ''Caprica''. As I recall, it comes after the whole unification thing, or at least it's supposed to. Still, I love the idea. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 01:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
::: I ''know'' we've seen the seal here and there in Caprica, but I can't quite remember where-- at the Pyramid matches, maybe? I don't have time to rewatch every episode of Caprica hunting around for it, unfortunately, but it's in the background sometimes. -- [[User:Rjinswand|Rjinswand]] 06:36, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::: Yeah, it was seen during the Pyramid match in "Rebirth" on a Caprican flag. Of course we don't know whether it already represents the Colonies as whole at that time - but since the flag looks exactly the same 58 years later, I'd say that's not too much of a stretch to assume. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 07:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
::::: Also, I just found a Colonial Seal on a flag of its own, without any Caprican symbols, in the Pyramid match in Imperfections of Memory. Here's a ''really'' bad Hulu screenshot of it: http://thaumic.net/bsg/pyramid.jpg -- [[User:Rjinswand|Rjinswand]] 08:53, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::: Just checked that out, the flag says "Caprica City Police" around the seal. Still I can't imagine that it's just a Caprican symbol prior to unification. -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 09:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::: The symbol may have been adopted later. It's within the realm of possibility... and still its presence at the pyramid games in ''Caprica'' are certainly worth noting. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 12:44, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::: Yeah, that's possible. But it ''seems'' unlikely to me, that a unified nation of twelve planets would represent itself with the logo of only one of their worlds. Anyway: Do we keep the Seal as the main picture? It's definitely the symbol of the Colonies at the time of BSG, and as that a rather prominent one. And at least it's ''around'' at the times of "Caprica". -- [[User:Penumbra|Penumbra]] 13:09, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::We know that the colonies were partially united in various federations and alliances prior to the Cylon war - just not all twelve of them in one single political structure. Maybe the union to which Caprica (and some subset of the other worlds) belonged was symbolized by the phoenix seal, and later came to include all twelve of the colonies? Think about how formerly independent states like Texas and Hawaii came to be included in the flag of the original 13 american colonies. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 06:51, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::I'm almost inclined to agree. Serge's Twitter answered a question about a prop that I'd been wondering about (someone asked about it a while ago) when the GDD searched the Graystone house, it had a notice on the top saying "By Special Order of the Intercolonial Courts of Libran." Now Obviously Caprica had it's own courts as seen by Joseph Adama, but it would seem that certain extenuating cases were taken before the Libran court system, implying some sort of loose affiliation between certain colonies. Serge even states "Intercolonial treaties mandated joint courts years ago." So it's possible there are some connections between them, like our own United Nations, but there is no singular government yet.
::::::::::Also of note, the "Colonial Anthem" is a piece that existed prior to the unification, so why not the seal? I'm sure they spent a lot of time deciding what they really wanted to signify their unification as the Cylons bombed their cities. heh--[[User:LeonisLeo|LeonisLeo]] 21:43, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

== More picture reassigning? ==

The pyramid-dominated cityscape that we all thought had been Virgon might actually be Gemenon. Doug Drexler labeled the image as such (http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2010/06/27/designing-for-sci-fi/), and the broadcast version of ''The Plan'' clearly assigns it to Gemenon. Thoughts? ----[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 14:50, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
:If no one has any comments on this in the next week, I'll re-label the picture and move it to the Gemenon section. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 22:43, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
:: I'm good with that. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:22, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

== Economics in the Twelve Colonies ==

Is it just me, but are a LOT of the twelve colonies vying for the dubious honour of the title of 'The Poorest Colony"?
Aerilon, Canceron, Gemenon, Saggitaron and Tauron! I can only imagine that the wealthy colonies were incredibly wealthy to have that serious an imbalance in wealth distribution! --[[User:Apolloin|Apolloin]] 07:31, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

== Gemenon Trivia - Europe ==

I was just looking at Gemenon, when I noticed, that there is a good portion of Europe visible there. [http://i55.tinypic.com/117yyx0.jpg Europe on Gemenon]
--[[User:Deus|Deus]] 15:12, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

== Before we jump the gun . . . ==

Of course having the new Twelve Colonies map from Jane Espenson and Kevin Grazer is like striking gold--but it shouldn't be treated as a 100% canon source just yet. As [[User:Pst001|Pst001]] mentioned [[Talk:The_Twelve_Colonies_of_Kobol/Archive2#.22official.22_map_of_the_twelve_colonies|here]] yesterday, quoting an interview with Espenson and Grazer, the map is only "quasi-canon," and the writers may diverge from the map if it serves their purposes. Before proceeding, we should discuss whether or not to use the map, and if so, if it should be referenced in a way that's different from how absolute canon (i.e., on screen in an episode or movie) information is referenced. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 21:07, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
: Thank you for starting this discussion! I completely agree that we should proceed with care and diligence when including this new information, considering that it is "quasi-canon." I haven't had the opportunity to look over the map as thoroughly as I have liked, so I'm leaving the discussion up to everyone else who has. Good hunting. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:15, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
::boy i guess i should have posted my thread on the right page... anywho. i'm happy to have the map as much as anybody (i put in my preorder), but i hope the information as already added hasn't been copied verbatim. [[User:Pst001|Pst001]] 21:28, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
::: Well, [[User:Frylock86|Frylock86]] has been adding in the information... with spelling errors and the like, it seems. Not too big of an issue, but the stuff needs to be copy edited. And certainly peer reviewed per BlueResistance. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:02, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
:One of the things I've been trying to study is the information we'd been going on before and after this map. One source is 'The Plan' where the hybrid claims "Twelve Battles, Three Stars" which seems to coincide with what Serge's Twitter says "The 12 colonies circle a star cluster. 3 stars with one outlying," he also states that "Ragnar is the key" and that "two worlds circle it." Neither of these prove true. Instead we have two binary stars that circle both each-other and each set, and Ragnar only has one 'world' which isn't even a colony. If these prove to be MORE cannon than the map (which I'd be inclined to agree) then it throws out the map as less than quasi cannon and just simply incorrect. I work at a Jurassic Park website called Jurassic Park Legacy and one of the difficulties we had there was establishing accurate maps. What we had to do was throw out almost every map that is seen and go by what is actually true to the film. For instance, the first Dinosaurs on the tour were "Dilophosaurus" and yet the map shown during the electric fences failing shows the first habitat to be Brachiosaurs habitat. We then decided this could be true and that the answer was that certain small species that are difficult to see might have been on the tour several times (so you might eventually catch a glimpse of them) and that what we see in the shut down were the MAIN fences which then branch off into a smaller network of fences. This, plus the fact that the Visitor Center had only just been built and the computer system had barely been running at all as stated by Ray Arnold made it so we could agree that perhaps what was on the computer was what had been intended, but was not built due to this and that reason. plus a ton of other reasons. So I agree. We must go slowly and be sure with what we add. Very little is established in the series. Perhaps Blood & Chrome will show more. --[[User:LeonisLeo|LeonisLeo]] 21:35, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

== Colony facts: infobox vs. image? ==

I think it would clean up the article a bit if the information at the beginning of each colony (i.e. Patron God, Ancient Name, etc.) were arranged in an infobox. Or otherwise just upload the image from [[Battlestar Galactica Map of the 12 Colonies|where the info comes from]], since the "Colors and symbol" are already included. [[w:io9|io9]] has a pretty good scan of the map [http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/io9/2011/01/map_of_the_colonies_1.jpg here], but the text is too tiny so I guess we'll have to wait till someone gets a better scan. Thoughts?--[[User:DrWho42|DrWho42]] 21:07, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

==Demonyms and Adjectives==
So I was just curious (none of this was canon) what you guys thought of demonyms and adjectives for the Colonies.

Colony-Demonym-Adjective

Kobol-Kobolite/Kobolian/Kobolings-Kobolan

Aerilon-Aerilonian-Aerilonian
Aquaria-Aquarian-Aquarish
Canceron-Canceronian-Canceronish
Caprica-Caprican-Caprican
Gemenon-Gemenard-Gemenese
Leonis-Leonan-Leonish
Libran-Libranite-Libran
Picon-Piconite-Piconish
Sagittaron-Sagittarionite-Sagittarian
Scorpia-Scorpian-Scorpionish
Tauron-Tauron-Taurish
Virgon-Virgins-Virgese

Talk:Survivor count/Archive 1

2010-11-30T00:59:56Z

Presstilty: /* Graph picture */

No whiteboard information given in the following episodes:
*Bastille Day
*Act of Contrition - 13 pilot deaths
*Litmus - 3 crew deaths and one copy of Doral
*Six Degrees of Separation - Shelly Godfrey "disappears"
*Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down - Baltar gives a verbal count, but the whiteboard is displaying something entirely weird.
*The Hand of God

I will be unable to update this page for the information in [[Home]] until a few days after it airs. Please be patient; I will attend to it as soon as possible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:00, 19 Aug 2005 (EDT)

==Timeline Fuzziness==
As you may have noticed, the timeline is getting fuzzy. I believe it is possible to establish a reasonable sequence of events through the episode "Flight of the Phoenix", but later events will be difficult to pin down until the airing of "Epiphanies". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:45, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

==Graph Update==

Peter, which software did you use to create this graph? Perhaps I can update it to reflect Pegasus. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 19:10, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:The problem is with the dates, which have gotten very fuzzy since the start of the second season. See [[Talk:Timeline (RDM)]] if you'd like to help me sort things out. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:33, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

::Uh oh. Sounds like deciphering M Theory. OK. What the heck. I'm with ya. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 02:03, 20 October 2005 (EDT)

:::I believe that we can now make a credible guess for the start dates of "Resistance", "The Farm", and "Flight of the Phoenix". "Home, Part I", "Home, Part II", "Final Cut" are not yet dated, and I am leaving them marked as such. Since I understand that including data from "Pegasus" is very desirable here, I'm making a completely unfounded guess that its events take place on Day 105, and updating the graph accordingly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:19, 13 November 2005 (EST)

The entry for Home (2) should list the deaths of two Laura Roslin redshirts (not one), since the overall population is reduced by three, but only Elosha and one redshirt is listed, unless there's another factor I'm forgetting. Ltcrashdown December 23, 2005

:We didn't see it happen, so that's not a reasonable assumption. Maybe somebody on the Rising Star hit their head on a bulkhead during the episode. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:06, 24 December 2005 (EST)

I agree. I don't remember anyone else dying either, but the body count got reduced. I just figure with one dead Roslin redshirt listed, that it might make sense to make it two, just so it would match up with the three death population decrease. Ltcrashdown

The sketchy numbers in the early few episodes can be accounted for in a few ways. First off, people could have been injured or heavily irradiated in the holocaust and eventually died a few days later. Secondly, people could have been injured/killer during the events of "33". Ron Moore mentions a deleted take where Edward James Olmos improvises a line about "10 suicides", for instance. Thirdly, people could have been counted twice, or not counted at all. If you remember the first couple days after 9/11, it was originally thought that around 6,000 people had died, until the estimates were revised down to 3,000. Given that the only source for the survivor count in the first season is Laura's whiteboard, some inaccuracies are to be expected. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 19:33, 31 January 2006 (EST)

==Rationale for Death Count between "Epiphanies" and "Black Market"==
We conclude that the bomber killed herself in the attack based on the following dialogue:
:'''Bomber:''' None of us want to die, but the fighting must end. If my sacrifice sends a signal to the Cylon that brings peace, then it was worth it. I do this for my children, and for the children that will follow them. Gods willing, demand peace, demand peace!
And that at least two civilians were killed based on this:
:'''Adama:''' People are dead.
So at least two people died in total as a result of the attack. It seems unlikely that Adama included the suicide bomber in this count, which puts the total death toll at the bomber and at least two civilians. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:29, 11 February 2006 (EST)

Agreed. Though I must advise against actually basing theories on all of this. I mean it's just a way of keeping track of the current number of humans: in Season 1 the numbers changed around a lot; remember that point when like 30 people died with no apparent explanation? I mean, jumps of 20-50 people might be pushing it, but when it comes to changes of around just 4-5 people, this can be offset by newborn babies, and conversly, the number that have died could be augmented by those civilians dying of more everyday means in the Fleet (murder, poor medical supplies, industrial accidents, etc.) I'm just saying: It was never a perfectly tuned system to begin with.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 01:50, 11 February 2006 (EST)

== Analysis on Baltar's Initial Projections is Off ==

In The Captain's Hand, where Baltar gives Roslin the fleet projections, the analysis erroneously goes on to state 7.5 deaths per day as a part of the fleet projections. That is a perspective, and it's off. Give Baltar credit enough to factor the known deathrate of 2.1 a day; ultimately leading to 62 years to total annihilation.

It is to my understanding that 18 years is how long it would be where the survivors would no longer be able to repopulate humanity. That is my initial thought, and what makes the most sense. From there the remaining survivors would simply live out the rest of their days or be killed, ending all of known humanity. Which, by the given analysis of 2.1 a day is 62 years.

The 18 years factor should not be used with the given analysis of 2.1 a day versus the erroneous 7.5 a day. That 7.5 does not match the deathrate from Season 1 to end of Season 2. --[[User:AJFederation|AJFederation]] 01:42, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

In biology, there is a concept of gene fixation, where a species loses genetic diversity and becomes highly susceptible to disease. Contributing to this is the reproductive population of a species. Since we have not a seen an age distribution chart, Baltar could be alluding to this concept. To illustrate, if the Fleet was reduced to 1000 males only or 500 males & 500 post menopausal females, the human race would functionally be extinct. Based on the current information, it is difficult to determine the truth.--[[User:Killerman|Killerman]] 07:00, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

== An idea for improved lucidity ==
This page has some interesting information. Over the seasons, however, it has become a bit cluddered and difficult to read the data, especially with all the one-item bullet lists. What about arranging all the relevant(!) data (that is, everything except for Adama's shaving :P) in one or more tables (e.g. one for each season) with four columns (Day, Count, Episode, Events)? --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 07:49, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Crossroads, Part I ==

As I noted on the page, there is a conflict in numbers. From "LDYB, Part II" we have 39,192 living in New Caprica City. "Crossroads" gives the number as 44,035. This is close to the ''total'' human population we calculated in the "Precipice" section and might be accurate if we don't take the "half-strength" comment too literally - which the page does. It's more of a turn of phrase than a true number. 
But then the lawyer notes the number of escapees as 38,838. This is obviously lower than numbers given in all previous episodes and thus has to exclude the military personnel. It's possible to reconcile the data, but including the military in one and excluding it in another is a very weird way of counting. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:01, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
:You mixed up the numbers: 39,192 is the population of New Caprica City '''after a year''' of living there. The missing 4,843 people could very well have died in the intervening year because of medicine shortages, climate (it seemed like a pretty cold place in the winter, and those tents are probably not very well heated), bad working conditions or other causes. This leaves 'only' 354 deaths during the Cylon occupation, which makes sense as well since Baltar was quite shocked at having to sign a death list with 200 names on it. Such large-scale executions probably hadn't occurred before. Of course this doesn't mean Baltar isn't responsible for the full 5,197 since it was his idea to settle on New Caprica in the first place, despite its being barely habitable. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:05, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
::Ok, I think I figured it out. I'll shortly add it to "[[Crossroads, Part I]]" and here. It actually fits pretty well with what has been established and what we calculated before. Curiously she is counting only the civilian population, and the "44305" also included the civilians in orbit despite her talking about "those who settled on New Caprica". --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:08, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

After, some confusing calculations, I managed to make the numbers fit very well with what we had estimated before. But there is still one annoying glitch: the number of military personnel with 2,597. This roughly fits with our estimate of the combined crews who escaped New Caprica, each battlestar having roughly half its normal crew. However 2600 is just about the crew ''Galactica'' had at the beginning, which conflicts with the overcrowding depicted after the destruction of ''Pegasus''. The problematic thing is the "Crossroads" figure. If it really means only the civilians it should be lower to shift more to the military.

Other options: 
1.) Taking the 4,835 as the death toll of the settlement is possible, but all that would do is decrease the death toll of the ''Cloud Nine'' explosion. The estimates of the population in orbit are still ca. 4,200. But it fixes the casualty figure of 5,197 Cassidy gives. 
2.) One could take the 44,035 as the survivors of ''Cloud Nine''. However that puts those deaths at 318, which is somewhat low for three or so ships. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:00, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

: Many of ''Galactica'''s personnel became civilians (Duck, Norah, Jammer, Seelix, et al.), so they were probably counted in as civvies. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:03, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

I'm not entirely sure how accurate we can really be. During that year, many of the military personnel had decided to leave military service and become back of the colonists on New Caprica. Thrace and the Tyrols are two good examples of the many military personnel that left. So that 2,597 might not be at all accurate either. Even in the beginning of the season, Lee Adama had argued with his father that BOTH the battlestars were less than half-staff and half strength, which would indicate to me that the # of military personnel is not accurate already.

I now kinda wish RDM left the footage of Cassidy doing the full calculation of the fleet out. In the podcast he mentioned how the lawyer went from 50 trillion lives to the current survivor count with all these calculations and minuses, etc. They had to shorten it for time sake which is a shame as this debate about how she got her numbers would probably not exist right now. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 23:51, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

== Graph picture ==

We should probably get rid of that picture. It's kinda nice, but outdated, since we're below 40,000 now. Someone could probably whip up a new one, but the show doesn't allow any absolute dating of events anymore.

Or how about a new one without a timescale? Instead of a timescale, it could be nice to directly name the events that lead to drastic increases and decreases in the population. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:49, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
:That could be easily whipped up in Excel. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 18:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
::Sorry I didn't see this before. I just manually updated it based on the "Faith" three-year comment (and the easy back-dating to the Ionian Nebula). I'm sure something a bit more "sleeker" would be better in the long run, but a graph should stay just for the cool visual summary.--[[User:Tim Thomason|Tim Thomason]] 00:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Looks fine :) -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I changed the graph picture to one that looks a little nicer, in my opinion. It also includes notes to the more important events, like the destruction of the ''Olympic Carrier,'' the arrival and destruction of the "Pegasus," the events on New Caprica and various battles. Any input is appreciation, and I'll make any changes you guys want. --[[User:Presstilty|Presstilty]] 23:43, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

: Good work! I like it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 03:37, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

::Thanks! I like it too :D --[[User:Presstilty|Presstilty]] 00:59, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

== Act of Contrition issue ==

Should we just note the possibility of 13 births off-setting the deaths of the pilots in "Act of Contrition"? Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:14, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

== A Disquiet Follows My Soul ==

*A Disquiet Follows My Soul
**39,644 - A loss of six. Ensign "Easy" Esrin, Lieutenant J. "Shark" Finnegan, and Specialist Brooks are murdered by "Sweet Eight" aboard Raptor 718, and three possible suicides.
I really don't think those deaths are considered in the count, as the episode was produced LONG before the webisodes would (see the commentary on the webisodes, mainly, where she mentions that this was shot concurrently with the movie and the destruction of the sets). I think it is really meant to count suicides.
--[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:00, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
:It would have been trivial to change the title graphics after "The Face of the Enemy" was produced. I don't think there's any need to assume that the deaths in the webisodes were non-canon. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Survivor count/Archive 1

2010-11-26T23:43:22Z

Presstilty: /* Graph picture */

No whiteboard information given in the following episodes:
*Bastille Day
*Act of Contrition - 13 pilot deaths
*Litmus - 3 crew deaths and one copy of Doral
*Six Degrees of Separation - Shelly Godfrey "disappears"
*Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down - Baltar gives a verbal count, but the whiteboard is displaying something entirely weird.
*The Hand of God

I will be unable to update this page for the information in [[Home]] until a few days after it airs. Please be patient; I will attend to it as soon as possible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:00, 19 Aug 2005 (EDT)

==Timeline Fuzziness==
As you may have noticed, the timeline is getting fuzzy. I believe it is possible to establish a reasonable sequence of events through the episode "Flight of the Phoenix", but later events will be difficult to pin down until the airing of "Epiphanies". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:45, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

==Graph Update==

Peter, which software did you use to create this graph? Perhaps I can update it to reflect Pegasus. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 19:10, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:The problem is with the dates, which have gotten very fuzzy since the start of the second season. See [[Talk:Timeline (RDM)]] if you'd like to help me sort things out. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:33, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

::Uh oh. Sounds like deciphering M Theory. OK. What the heck. I'm with ya. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 02:03, 20 October 2005 (EDT)

:::I believe that we can now make a credible guess for the start dates of "Resistance", "The Farm", and "Flight of the Phoenix". "Home, Part I", "Home, Part II", "Final Cut" are not yet dated, and I am leaving them marked as such. Since I understand that including data from "Pegasus" is very desirable here, I'm making a completely unfounded guess that its events take place on Day 105, and updating the graph accordingly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:19, 13 November 2005 (EST)

The entry for Home (2) should list the deaths of two Laura Roslin redshirts (not one), since the overall population is reduced by three, but only Elosha and one redshirt is listed, unless there's another factor I'm forgetting. Ltcrashdown December 23, 2005

:We didn't see it happen, so that's not a reasonable assumption. Maybe somebody on the Rising Star hit their head on a bulkhead during the episode. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:06, 24 December 2005 (EST)

I agree. I don't remember anyone else dying either, but the body count got reduced. I just figure with one dead Roslin redshirt listed, that it might make sense to make it two, just so it would match up with the three death population decrease. Ltcrashdown

The sketchy numbers in the early few episodes can be accounted for in a few ways. First off, people could have been injured or heavily irradiated in the holocaust and eventually died a few days later. Secondly, people could have been injured/killer during the events of "33". Ron Moore mentions a deleted take where Edward James Olmos improvises a line about "10 suicides", for instance. Thirdly, people could have been counted twice, or not counted at all. If you remember the first couple days after 9/11, it was originally thought that around 6,000 people had died, until the estimates were revised down to 3,000. Given that the only source for the survivor count in the first season is Laura's whiteboard, some inaccuracies are to be expected. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 19:33, 31 January 2006 (EST)

==Rationale for Death Count between "Epiphanies" and "Black Market"==
We conclude that the bomber killed herself in the attack based on the following dialogue:
:'''Bomber:''' None of us want to die, but the fighting must end. If my sacrifice sends a signal to the Cylon that brings peace, then it was worth it. I do this for my children, and for the children that will follow them. Gods willing, demand peace, demand peace!
And that at least two civilians were killed based on this:
:'''Adama:''' People are dead.
So at least two people died in total as a result of the attack. It seems unlikely that Adama included the suicide bomber in this count, which puts the total death toll at the bomber and at least two civilians. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:29, 11 February 2006 (EST)

Agreed. Though I must advise against actually basing theories on all of this. I mean it's just a way of keeping track of the current number of humans: in Season 1 the numbers changed around a lot; remember that point when like 30 people died with no apparent explanation? I mean, jumps of 20-50 people might be pushing it, but when it comes to changes of around just 4-5 people, this can be offset by newborn babies, and conversly, the number that have died could be augmented by those civilians dying of more everyday means in the Fleet (murder, poor medical supplies, industrial accidents, etc.) I'm just saying: It was never a perfectly tuned system to begin with.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 01:50, 11 February 2006 (EST)

== Analysis on Baltar's Initial Projections is Off ==

In The Captain's Hand, where Baltar gives Roslin the fleet projections, the analysis erroneously goes on to state 7.5 deaths per day as a part of the fleet projections. That is a perspective, and it's off. Give Baltar credit enough to factor the known deathrate of 2.1 a day; ultimately leading to 62 years to total annihilation.

It is to my understanding that 18 years is how long it would be where the survivors would no longer be able to repopulate humanity. That is my initial thought, and what makes the most sense. From there the remaining survivors would simply live out the rest of their days or be killed, ending all of known humanity. Which, by the given analysis of 2.1 a day is 62 years.

The 18 years factor should not be used with the given analysis of 2.1 a day versus the erroneous 7.5 a day. That 7.5 does not match the deathrate from Season 1 to end of Season 2. --[[User:AJFederation|AJFederation]] 01:42, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

In biology, there is a concept of gene fixation, where a species loses genetic diversity and becomes highly susceptible to disease. Contributing to this is the reproductive population of a species. Since we have not a seen an age distribution chart, Baltar could be alluding to this concept. To illustrate, if the Fleet was reduced to 1000 males only or 500 males & 500 post menopausal females, the human race would functionally be extinct. Based on the current information, it is difficult to determine the truth.--[[User:Killerman|Killerman]] 07:00, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

== An idea for improved lucidity ==
This page has some interesting information. Over the seasons, however, it has become a bit cluddered and difficult to read the data, especially with all the one-item bullet lists. What about arranging all the relevant(!) data (that is, everything except for Adama's shaving :P) in one or more tables (e.g. one for each season) with four columns (Day, Count, Episode, Events)? --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 07:49, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Crossroads, Part I ==

As I noted on the page, there is a conflict in numbers. From "LDYB, Part II" we have 39,192 living in New Caprica City. "Crossroads" gives the number as 44,035. This is close to the ''total'' human population we calculated in the "Precipice" section and might be accurate if we don't take the "half-strength" comment too literally - which the page does. It's more of a turn of phrase than a true number. 
But then the lawyer notes the number of escapees as 38,838. This is obviously lower than numbers given in all previous episodes and thus has to exclude the military personnel. It's possible to reconcile the data, but including the military in one and excluding it in another is a very weird way of counting. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:01, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
:You mixed up the numbers: 39,192 is the population of New Caprica City '''after a year''' of living there. The missing 4,843 people could very well have died in the intervening year because of medicine shortages, climate (it seemed like a pretty cold place in the winter, and those tents are probably not very well heated), bad working conditions or other causes. This leaves 'only' 354 deaths during the Cylon occupation, which makes sense as well since Baltar was quite shocked at having to sign a death list with 200 names on it. Such large-scale executions probably hadn't occurred before. Of course this doesn't mean Baltar isn't responsible for the full 5,197 since it was his idea to settle on New Caprica in the first place, despite its being barely habitable. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:05, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
::Ok, I think I figured it out. I'll shortly add it to "[[Crossroads, Part I]]" and here. It actually fits pretty well with what has been established and what we calculated before. Curiously she is counting only the civilian population, and the "44305" also included the civilians in orbit despite her talking about "those who settled on New Caprica". --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:08, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

After, some confusing calculations, I managed to make the numbers fit very well with what we had estimated before. But there is still one annoying glitch: the number of military personnel with 2,597. This roughly fits with our estimate of the combined crews who escaped New Caprica, each battlestar having roughly half its normal crew. However 2600 is just about the crew ''Galactica'' had at the beginning, which conflicts with the overcrowding depicted after the destruction of ''Pegasus''. The problematic thing is the "Crossroads" figure. If it really means only the civilians it should be lower to shift more to the military.

Other options: 
1.) Taking the 4,835 as the death toll of the settlement is possible, but all that would do is decrease the death toll of the ''Cloud Nine'' explosion. The estimates of the population in orbit are still ca. 4,200. But it fixes the casualty figure of 5,197 Cassidy gives. 
2.) One could take the 44,035 as the survivors of ''Cloud Nine''. However that puts those deaths at 318, which is somewhat low for three or so ships. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:00, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

: Many of ''Galactica'''s personnel became civilians (Duck, Norah, Jammer, Seelix, et al.), so they were probably counted in as civvies. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:03, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

I'm not entirely sure how accurate we can really be. During that year, many of the military personnel had decided to leave military service and become back of the colonists on New Caprica. Thrace and the Tyrols are two good examples of the many military personnel that left. So that 2,597 might not be at all accurate either. Even in the beginning of the season, Lee Adama had argued with his father that BOTH the battlestars were less than half-staff and half strength, which would indicate to me that the # of military personnel is not accurate already.

I now kinda wish RDM left the footage of Cassidy doing the full calculation of the fleet out. In the podcast he mentioned how the lawyer went from 50 trillion lives to the current survivor count with all these calculations and minuses, etc. They had to shorten it for time sake which is a shame as this debate about how she got her numbers would probably not exist right now. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 23:51, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

== Graph picture ==

We should probably get rid of that picture. It's kinda nice, but outdated, since we're below 40,000 now. Someone could probably whip up a new one, but the show doesn't allow any absolute dating of events anymore.

Or how about a new one without a timescale? Instead of a timescale, it could be nice to directly name the events that lead to drastic increases and decreases in the population. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:49, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
:That could be easily whipped up in Excel. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 18:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
::Sorry I didn't see this before. I just manually updated it based on the "Faith" three-year comment (and the easy back-dating to the Ionian Nebula). I'm sure something a bit more "sleeker" would be better in the long run, but a graph should stay just for the cool visual summary.--[[User:Tim Thomason|Tim Thomason]] 00:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Looks fine :) -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I changed the graph picture to one that looks a little nicer, in my opinion. It also includes notes to the more important events, like the destruction of the ''Olympic Carrier,'' the arrival and destruction of the "Pegasus," the events on New Caprica and various battles. Any input is appreciation, and I'll make any changes you guys want. --[[User:Presstilty|Presstilty]] 23:43, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

== Act of Contrition issue ==

Should we just note the possibility of 13 births off-setting the deaths of the pilots in "Act of Contrition"? Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:14, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

== A Disquiet Follows My Soul ==

*A Disquiet Follows My Soul
**39,644 - A loss of six. Ensign "Easy" Esrin, Lieutenant J. "Shark" Finnegan, and Specialist Brooks are murdered by "Sweet Eight" aboard Raptor 718, and three possible suicides.
I really don't think those deaths are considered in the count, as the episode was produced LONG before the webisodes would (see the commentary on the webisodes, mainly, where she mentions that this was shot concurrently with the movie and the destruction of the sets). I think it is really meant to count suicides.
--[[User:Tritium|Tritium]] 04:00, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
:It would have been trivial to change the title graphics after "The Face of the Enemy" was produced. I don't think there's any need to assume that the deaths in the webisodes were non-canon. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Survivor count

2010-11-26T23:40:20Z

Presstilty: /* Graph */

:''This article involves the survivor count of the refugees in the [[Re-imagined Series]]. For a count of losses and gains in the Fleet incurred during the [[Original Series]], see: [[Fleet population]].''

The number of surviving Colonial citizens and military in the fleet was provided at intervals throughout the first season on a whiteboard on ''[[Colonial One]]'', and in one instance spoken aloud in dialogue. In the second season, this number appears in the opening credits of every episode (sometimes jokingly referred to as the "Countdown to Extinction"), and displays limited omniscience, updating itself to reflect the deaths on [[Kobol (RDM)|Kobol]] early in that season. This page collects the figures available thus far, cross-referenced with date information from [[Timeline (RDM)]].

==Graph==
[[Image:Fleet_survivors_new.jpg]]
:''All dates up until 51 are exact, 51-950 use estimates below, all tallies past 950 use an average of 5 days between counts (it averages out)''

==Data==

===Season 1===

'''Zero Hour'''
*'''[[Miniseries]]'''
**50,000,000,000 - Estimated total population of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol prior to the Cylon attack ([[A Disquiet Follows My Soul]]).

'''Day 6'''
*'''[[33]]'''
**50,298 - Initial estimate.
**49,998 - Revised count. A decrease of 300.
**49,317 - Second revision. A decrease of 618 (cut scene, DVD).
**47,972 - A loss of 1345 after destruction of the ''[[Olympic Carrier]]''.
**47,973 - One birth aboard the ''[[Rising Star (RDM)|Rising Star]]''.

'''Day 10'''
*'''[[Water]]'''
**47,958 - A net loss of 15.

'''Day 15'''
*'''[[You Can't Go Home Again]]'''
**47,958 - 13 pilots killed in a hanger deck accident in "[[Act of Contrition]]", but the count is not updated.

'''Day 25'''
*'''[[Flesh and Bone]]'''
**47,954 - A net loss of 4 after deaths of a marine and three crew in "[[Litmus]]", the discovery of [[Ellen Tigh]] one week prior to "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]", and the disappearance of [[Shelly Godfrey]] in "[[Six Degrees of Separation]]". [[Number Five#Suicide Bomber Copy|Aaron Doral (Scorpia Traveler copy)]] was apparently not included among the fleet's population. The events of "Act of Contrition" have (still) not been accounted for.

'''Day 28'''
*'''[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]'''
**47,905 - A loss of 49. Total stated by Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]], possibly excluding himself and [[Sharon Valerii]].

'''Day 48'''
*'''[[Colonial Day]]'''
**47,898 - [[Valance]] is murdered while in custody aboard ''[[Cloud 9]]''. Four Viper pilots killed in "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]". Two additional unexplained deaths.

'''Day 50'''
*'''[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]'''
**47,897 - One unseen death.

'''Day 51'''
*'''[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]'''
**47,887 - [[Raptor 3]] destroyed over [[Kobol (RDM)|Kobol]] with 10 souls aboard.
*'''[[Scattered]]'''
**47,875 - [[Sharon Valerii|"Boomer" Valerii]] is removed from the count after her assassination attempt. Probably includes the death of [[Karma]] in "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]", since the on-screen total appears to include deaths on Kobol. 10 additional unseen deaths.

=== Season 2===

*'''[[Valley of Darkness]]'''
**47,874 - [[Tarn]] shot by Cylon Centurions.
*'''[[Fragged]]'''
**47,862 - [[Flyboy]] killed by Cylon Centurion. [[Socinus]] euthanized by [[Galen Tyrol]]. Additional casualties during Cylon boarding action of ''Galactica''.

'''Day 54 (est.)'''
*'''[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]'''
**47,861 - [[Crashdown]] shot by [[Gaius Baltar]].

'''Day 60 (est.)'''
*'''[[The Farm]]'''
** 47,857 - Four civilians massacred by marine strike team aboard the ''[[Gideon]]''.

'''Dates Unknown'''
*'''[[Home, Part I]]'''
** 47,858 - Return of [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], who was presumed dead. Caprica Valerii is not included in the count.
*'''[[Home, Part II]]'''
** 47,855 - Death of [[Elosha]] and a [[Laura Roslin faction|faction]] [[Wikipedia: Redshirt (character)|redshirt]].
*'''[[Final Cut]]'''
** 47,853 - Death of [[Meier]] and unnamed Tom Zarek henchman in "Home, Part II".

'''Day 86 (est.)
*'''[[Flight of the Phoenix]]'''
** 47,853 - No change since "Final Cut".

'''Dates Unknown'''
*'''[[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]'''
**49,605 - After the return of the battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', a dramatic increase of 1,752 over the previous count. The change is shown in the opening credits of [[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]], since the ship appeared in the "teaser" before the opening credits.
*'''[[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]'''
**49,604 - Death of [[Alastair Thorne]].
*'''[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]'''
**49,604 - No change since "Resurrection Ship, Part I".

'''Day 189'''
*'''[[Epiphanies]]'''
** 49,598 - Deaths of Admiral [[Helena Cain]] and an unnamed marine guard on ''Pegasus''. The remaining casualty count of four is conspicuously low given the scope of the [[Battle of the Resurrection Ship|battle]] depicted in the previous episode.

'''Dates Unknown'''
*'''[[Black Market]]'''
**49,597 - The death of a suicide bomber on the ''[[Daru Mozu]]''. Based on dialogue, the attack took the lives of the bomber and at least two civilians. This may have been offset by births in between the two episodes. The death of [[Jack Fisk]] was shown in the teaser of [[Black Market]], and should be counted in the opening credits.
*'''[[Scar]]'''
**49,593 - Deaths of Commander [[Jack Fisk]], Fisk's assassin, [[Phelan]], and one other person, presumably [[Beano]]. It is unclear where the death of Beano, the first of four pilots killed by Scar is counted. Since much of the episode, including the deaths of the four pilots killed by Scar, is shown in flashback.

*'''[[Sacrifice]]'''
**49,590 - Deaths of three pilots killed by Scar: [[Reilly]], [[Brent Baxton|Brent "BB" Baxton]], and [[Joseph Clark|Joseph "Jo-Jo" Clark]].

'''c. Day 210'''
*'''[[The Captain's Hand]]'''
**49,584 - Deaths of [[Sesha Abinell]], [[Kern Vinson]], [[Nelson Page]], [[George Chu]], and two unnamed marines, and [[Billy Keikeya]]. Sesha Abinell's husband Ray was killed during a Cylon attack ten weeks prior to this episode, but it does not appear to have been counted. It may have been offset by a birth.

'''c. Day 240'''
*'''[[The Captain's Hand]]'''
**49,579 - Deaths of [[Richard Bayer|Buster]], [[Lyla|Shark]], the two-man crew of [[Raptor 314]], and Commander [[Barry Garner]] (seen near the end on the white board).

'''Between c. Day 240 and c. Day 270'''
*'''[[Razor]] ( Present events)'''
**49,579 - confirms closing count from "The Captain's Hand".

'''c. Day 270'''
*'''[[Downloaded]]'''
**49,579 - confirms closing count from "The Captain's Hand". The count is either not updated to reflect the deaths of [[Kendra Shaw]] and [[Dasilva]] in "[[Razor]]" or there were births that offset those deaths.
*'''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]'''
**49,579 - No change since "[[Downloaded]]". It is unclear how the birth of [[Hera Agathon|Hera]] is counted. Her birth appears to be offset by the death of [[Maya]]'s child. Maya's child seems to be the one seen in the incubator, and whose ashes are spread out of a Raptor by Helo and Tyrol.
'''c. Day 280'''
*'''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'''
**49,550 - [[Raptor 612]] jumped into a mountain on Caprica. This could account for four people: A pilot, an ECO, and two marines.

'''During the Settlement of New Caprica (from c. Day 280 to c. Day 660)'''
*'''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'''
**After the "One Year Later" time jump later in the episode, the population of New Caprica City is given as 39,192. This includes separated military personnel, but does not include military and civilians in the small fleet orbiting the planet.
*'''[[Precipice]]'''
**According to Lee Adama, about 2,000 civilians escaped with the ships in orbit of New Caprica.
**Adama also states that both ''Galactica'' and ''Pegasus'' are at half strength (this can't be taken literally).
***A careful [[crew tally]] establishes that, at full strength, ''Galactica'' is crewed by about 2,808 people and ''Pegasus'' by about 2,445.
***The same tally indicates that immediately prior to the one-year jump, ''Galactica'' was crewed by about 2,600 people, and ''Pegasus'' by about 1,700. At half-strength, this puts the minimum number of military personnel at about 2,200.
**This puts our estimate of the total human population at roughly 43,400 (39,192 + 2000 + 2200)
**Subtracting from the figure of 49,550 given in "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II", this means that the total population fell by about 6150 people during the one-year gap. The majority of these deaths probably happened as a result of the destruction of ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' and the surrounding vessels.
:''For a confirmation of these estimates with more accurate numbers see the "[[Crossroads, Part I]]" section''

=== Season 3===

'''During the Occupation of New Caprica (from c. Day 660 to c. Day 798)'''
*An unknown number of people died in the insurgency and Cylon retaliation. However this must be offset by additional births during this four month time span. Accurately tracking the population numbers is impossible at this point, but known casualty figures are given below:
*'''c. Day 729'''
**'''[[Battlestar Galactica: The Resistance]]''' - 10 people are killed at the temple, including [[Nora Farmer]].
*'''c. Day 794'''
**'''[[Occupation]]''' - [[Tucker Clellan]] bombs the [[New Caprica Police]] graduation ceremony, killing 33 humans.
*'''c. Day 796'''
**'''[[Precipice]]''' - suicide bombing at the power substation kills 4 humans. Three resistance fighters die in the ambush at [[Breeders Canyon]].
*'''c. Day 798'''
**'''[[Exodus, Part II]]''' - numerous casualties during the evacuation of New Caprica, including [[Maya]]. [[Ellen Tigh]] is poisoned by her husband for collaborating with the Cylons, but as she is a Cylon herself her death is not counted.

'''c. Day 800'''
*'''[[Collaborators]]'''
**41,435 - Fleet population as of the third day of the Second Exodus. Given the above numbers, the death toll of the resistance and the [[Battle of New Caprica]] is about 2000 people. Given the total in the next episode, this figure does not reflect the 13 collaborators executed by the [[Circle]] between this episode and the last.
**Several hundred children might have been born on New Caprica. Since they are also included in the count, the Fleet has lost more older and able-bodied people than apparent.

'''c. Day 830'''
*'''[[Torn]]'''
**41,422 - Figure now reflects the 13 collaborators executed by the [[Circle]]. No deaths occur in this episode.

'''c. Day 831'''
*'''[[A Measure of Salvation]]'''
**41,420 - Two unseen deaths.

'''c. Day 935'''
*'''[[Hero]]'''
**41,421 - [[Daniel Novacek|Daniel "Bulldog" Novacek]] escapes from Cylon custody and joins the population of the fleet.

'''c. Day 950'''
*'''[[Unfinished Business]]'''
**41,422 - One birth.

'''Dates Unknown'''
*'''[[The Passage]]'''
**41,420 - Two unseen deaths.

*'''[[The Eye of Jupiter]]'''
**41,402 - Eighteen deaths from radiation exposure, including the skeleton crews of the ''[[Adriatic]]'' and the ''[[Carina]]''. This also includes [[Louanne Katraine|Louanne Katraine]].

*'''[[Rapture]]'''
**41,401 - One unseen death.

*'''[[Taking a Break from All Your Worries]]'''
**41,403 - Deaths of [[Hillard]] and [[Omar Fischer]]. [[Hera Agathon]], [[Gaius Baltar]] and [[Caprica-Six]] join the Fleet's population, in addition to two possible birth. Caprica-Six is not added to the count.

*'''[[The Woman King]]'''
**41,401 - Two unseen deaths.

*'''[[A Day in the Life]]'''
**41,398 - Deaths of [[Willie King]] and two other Sagittarons; possibly more if offset by births.

*'''[[Dirty Hands]]'''
**41,400 - Two births.

*'''[[Maelstrom]]'''
**41,400 - No net change.

*'''[[The Son Also Rises]]'''
**41,399 - Death of [[Kara Thrace]] in the prior episode, and [[Alan Hughes]] at the end of this episode's teaser. Hughes' death is either not counted, offset by a birth, or Thrace's death is not counted.

*'''[[Crossroads, Part I]]'''
**Unknown, as there is no intro for this episode.
**The following numbers are given during Baltar's trial by [[Cassidy]]: 44,035 - the number who settled on New Caprica; 38,838 - the number the day after the escape. However the number of escapees can only refer to the ''civilian'' population of the Fleet, and despite talking specifically about the people who settled on New Caprica, this number includes the ''total'' population, including those in orbit.
**This contradictory wording is a writing error, but interpreting them slightly differently confirms the estimates from "[[Precipice]]":
***41,435 (Collaborators) - 38,838 = 2,597 (the military personnel in the Fleet)
***44,035 - 39,192 (the inhabitants of [[New Caprica City]]) = 4,835 (the total population left in orbit)
***4,835 - 2,597 = 2,238 (in "Precipice" Lee Adama refers to roughly 2,000 civilians who escaped New Caprica)
***49,550 (count in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]") - 39,192 - 4,835 = 5,523 (the death toll prior to the occupation, mostly incurred with the destruction of ''[[Cloud Nine]]'')
***49,550 - 5,523 - 41,435 = 2,592 (the causalities of the Cylon occupation and the [[Battle of New Caprica|escape from New Caprica]])
:'''Note:''' While this number of military personnel fits with the estimate about their strength during the settlement of New Caprica, it still does not fit with the depiction of overcrowding on ''Galactica'' after the escape from the planet and the destruction of ''Pegasus'', since the battlestar was crewed with approximately 2,600 people to begin with. The number of civilians should therefore be lower.

*'''[[Crossroads, Part II]]'''
**Unknown, as there is no intro for this episode.

=== Season 4===

*'''[[He That Believeth In Me]]'''
**39,698 - A loss of [[Numerology#1701|1,701]], accounting for the ca. 600 deaths on ''[[Pyxis]]'', and ca. additional 1,100 deaths on other ships damaged during the [[Battle of the Ionian Nebula]], such as the ''[[Zephyr]]'' and ''[[Astral Queen]]''. The assumed dead [[Kara Thrace]] returns, presumably increasing the number by one. [[Samuel Anders]], [[Tory Foster]], [[Saul Tigh]], and [[Galen Tyrol]] likely removed from the count upon revelation of their Cylon nature.

*'''[[Six of One]]'''
**39,676 - 22 unaccounted for deaths from the previous episode. These may be people who were wounded in the battle, but died of their injuries later.

*'''[[The Ties That Bind]]'''
**39,676 - No change. [[Cally Tyrol]] dies during the course of the episode.

*'''[[Escape Velocity]]'''
**39,675 - Cally Tyrol's death is accounted for.

*'''[[The Road Less Traveled]]'''
**39,676 - An increase of one; likely a birth in the Fleet. Sergeant [[Erin Mathias]] dies during the episode.

*'''[[Faith]]'''
**39,675 - Mathias's death is accounted for. [[Jean Barolay]] and [[Emily Kowalski]] die during the episode.

*'''[[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]]'''
**39,673 - Barolay's and Kowalski's deaths are counted.

*'''[[Sine Qua Non]]'''
**39,674 - An unexplained increase by one. During the episode [[Eammon Pike]] is found the dead in the Raptor and several pilots were likely killed in the battle at the [[Resurrection Hub]]. [[Natalie Faust]] succumbs to her injuries from [[Sharon Agathon]]'s assassination attempt. Her death is not counted.

*'''[[The Hub]]'''
**39,673 - A decrease of one, possibly counting Pike's death. However, the episode takes place concurrently with "Sine Qua Non" and Pike only dies later in the episode.

*'''[[Revelations]]'''
**39,665 - A decrease of eight, likely accounting for the Colonial casualties during the [[Battle of the Resurrection Hub]].

*'''[[Sometimes a Great Notion]]'''
**39,651 - A decrease of fourteen. Accounting for the unnamed pilot executed by [[D'Anna Biers|D'Anna]] in "[[Revelations]]", and thirteen additional unexplained deaths.
**39,650 - [[Anastasia Dualla]] commits suicide.

*'''[[A Disquiet Follows My Soul]]'''
**39,644 - A loss of six. [[Esrin|Ensign "Easy" Esrin]], [[J. Finnegan|Lieutenant J. "Shark" Finnegan]], and [[Brooks|Specialist Brooks]] are murdered by "[[Number Eight|Sweet Eight]]" aboard [[Raptor 718]], and three possible suicides. 2 marines die in the course of the episode.

*'''[[The Oath]]'''
**39,643 - A loss of one, [[Peter Laird]] (killed by [[Tom Zarek]]).

*'''[[Blood on the Scales]]'''
** 39,603 - A loss of 40. Probably casualties of [[Gaeta's Mutiny|Felix Gaeta and Tom Zarek's coup d'etat]]. Private [[Stewart Jaffee]] and [[Maldonaldo|Lance Corporal Maldonaldo]] are among the slain.

*'''[[No Exit]]'''
** 39,556 - A loss of 47, including eleven members of the [[Quorum of Twelve (RDM)|Quorum]], [[Parr]], [[Tom Zarek]] and [[Felix Gaeta]], and other probable casualties of the coup.

*'''[[Deadlock]]'''
** 39,556 - No change. [[Ellen Tigh]] and [[Sharon Valerii]] return to the fleet but are not factored into the count.

*'''[[Someone to Watch Over Me]]'''
** 39,556 - No change.

*'''[[Islanded in a Stream of Stars]]'''
** 39,521 - 35 casualties from the damage done to ''Galactica'' by [[Sharon Valerii|Sharon "Boomer" Valerii]]'s mistimed FTL jump. Cylon workers are among the dead but are not factored into the count.

*'''[[Daybreak, Part I]]'''
** 39,516 - 5 unknown casualties, possibly people who were wounded in the previous episode but did not die until later.

*'''[[Daybreak, Part II]]'''
** Unknown - No opening count for this episode. Heavy losses incurred during the [[Battle of The Colony]] including (but not limited to): [[Margaret Edmonson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmonson]], [[Hamish McCall|Hamish "Skulls" McCall]], 4 other Viper pilots and the crews of 7 Raptors. Uncounted Cylon casualties include [[Sharon Valerii]], [[Number One|John Cavil]], [[Tory Foster]], and the entire Number One, [[Number Four|Four]], and [[Number Five|Five]] model lines.

*'''[[Daybreak, Part II|Daybreak, Part III]]'''
** 39,406 - Tally shown digitally available version of "Daybreak, Part III". A loss of 110, most likely casualties from the Battle of the Colony.
** approx. "38,000" - Closing count given by Admiral Adama, a verbal estimate of the number of survivors who survived to make it to the second [[Earth (RDM)|Earth]]. [[Laura Roslin]] dies on [[Earth]]. [[Kara Thrace|Kara "Starbuck" Thrace]] mysteriously vanishes. [[Samuel Anders]] pilots the Fleet into Earth's sun.

*'''150,000 Years Later'''
** 6,760,000,000 - Estimated current population of Earth, descendants of the survivors of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol.

==Analysis==
*The detonation of a nuclear warhead on ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' by the [[Number Six]] copy, [[Gina Inviere]], is the first time a ship has been destroyed since the destruction of the ''[[Olympic Carrier]]''.
*The ships ''[[Adriatic]]'' and ''[[Carina]]'' are also destroyed in "[[The Passage]]", however with only skeleton crews aboard.
*Since the end of "[[33]]", the Fleet's population has been dying off at a fairly steady rate of approximately 2.1 persons per day. At this rate, barring the arrival of more humans such as that seen in "[[Pegasus]]", the Fleet would be completely depopulated within a few decades.
*In "[[The Captain's Hand]]" (roughly in the region of Day 250-60), Dr. Baltar estimated that (factoring in the arrival of ''Pegasus''), given the survivor count's current rate of decline, never increasing, the human race will simply go extinct in 18 years. If this refers only to excess mortality, it would mean an average rate of roughly 7.5 people a day. It may be that Baltar's estimate considered more factors, such as labor shortages resulting in famine, which would complicate this model, resulting in the death rate exponentially increasing over time.
*First season survivor counts are available from [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin's]] whiteboard aboard ''[[Colonial One]]''. Second season survivor counts are included in the opening titles, as well as the presidential whiteboard.
*The loss of 8,115 people between "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]" and "[[Collaborators]]" is the highest net loss from one opening title count to another.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial]]
[[Category:Colonial History]]
[[Category:Colonial History (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

[[de:Anzahl der Überlebenden]]

Survivor count

2010-11-26T23:39:13Z

Presstilty: /* Graph */

:''This article involves the survivor count of the refugees in the [[Re-imagined Series]]. For a count of losses and gains in the Fleet incurred during the [[Original Series]], see: [[Fleet population]].''

The number of surviving Colonial citizens and military in the fleet was provided at intervals throughout the first season on a whiteboard on ''[[Colonial One]]'', and in one instance spoken aloud in dialogue. In the second season, this number appears in the opening credits of every episode (sometimes jokingly referred to as the "Countdown to Extinction"), and displays limited omniscience, updating itself to reflect the deaths on [[Kobol (RDM)|Kobol]] early in that season. This page collects the figures available thus far, cross-referenced with date information from [[Timeline (RDM)]].

==Graph==
[[Image:Fleet_Survivors.JPG]]
:''All dates up until 51 are exact, 51-950 use estimates below, all tallies past 950 use an average of 5 days between counts (it averages out)''

==Data==

===Season 1===

'''Zero Hour'''
*'''[[Miniseries]]'''
**50,000,000,000 - Estimated total population of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol prior to the Cylon attack ([[A Disquiet Follows My Soul]]).

'''Day 6'''
*'''[[33]]'''
**50,298 - Initial estimate.
**49,998 - Revised count. A decrease of 300.
**49,317 - Second revision. A decrease of 618 (cut scene, DVD).
**47,972 - A loss of 1345 after destruction of the ''[[Olympic Carrier]]''.
**47,973 - One birth aboard the ''[[Rising Star (RDM)|Rising Star]]''.

'''Day 10'''
*'''[[Water]]'''
**47,958 - A net loss of 15.

'''Day 15'''
*'''[[You Can't Go Home Again]]'''
**47,958 - 13 pilots killed in a hanger deck accident in "[[Act of Contrition]]", but the count is not updated.

'''Day 25'''
*'''[[Flesh and Bone]]'''
**47,954 - A net loss of 4 after deaths of a marine and three crew in "[[Litmus]]", the discovery of [[Ellen Tigh]] one week prior to "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]", and the disappearance of [[Shelly Godfrey]] in "[[Six Degrees of Separation]]". [[Number Five#Suicide Bomber Copy|Aaron Doral (Scorpia Traveler copy)]] was apparently not included among the fleet's population. The events of "Act of Contrition" have (still) not been accounted for.

'''Day 28'''
*'''[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]'''
**47,905 - A loss of 49. Total stated by Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]], possibly excluding himself and [[Sharon Valerii]].

'''Day 48'''
*'''[[Colonial Day]]'''
**47,898 - [[Valance]] is murdered while in custody aboard ''[[Cloud 9]]''. Four Viper pilots killed in "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]". Two additional unexplained deaths.

'''Day 50'''
*'''[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]'''
**47,897 - One unseen death.

'''Day 51'''
*'''[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]'''
**47,887 - [[Raptor 3]] destroyed over [[Kobol (RDM)|Kobol]] with 10 souls aboard.
*'''[[Scattered]]'''
**47,875 - [[Sharon Valerii|"Boomer" Valerii]] is removed from the count after her assassination attempt. Probably includes the death of [[Karma]] in "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]", since the on-screen total appears to include deaths on Kobol. 10 additional unseen deaths.

=== Season 2===

*'''[[Valley of Darkness]]'''
**47,874 - [[Tarn]] shot by Cylon Centurions.
*'''[[Fragged]]'''
**47,862 - [[Flyboy]] killed by Cylon Centurion. [[Socinus]] euthanized by [[Galen Tyrol]]. Additional casualties during Cylon boarding action of ''Galactica''.

'''Day 54 (est.)'''
*'''[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]'''
**47,861 - [[Crashdown]] shot by [[Gaius Baltar]].

'''Day 60 (est.)'''
*'''[[The Farm]]'''
** 47,857 - Four civilians massacred by marine strike team aboard the ''[[Gideon]]''.

'''Dates Unknown'''
*'''[[Home, Part I]]'''
** 47,858 - Return of [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], who was presumed dead. Caprica Valerii is not included in the count.
*'''[[Home, Part II]]'''
** 47,855 - Death of [[Elosha]] and a [[Laura Roslin faction|faction]] [[Wikipedia: Redshirt (character)|redshirt]].
*'''[[Final Cut]]'''
** 47,853 - Death of [[Meier]] and unnamed Tom Zarek henchman in "Home, Part II".

'''Day 86 (est.)
*'''[[Flight of the Phoenix]]'''
** 47,853 - No change since "Final Cut".

'''Dates Unknown'''
*'''[[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]'''
**49,605 - After the return of the battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', a dramatic increase of 1,752 over the previous count. The change is shown in the opening credits of [[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]], since the ship appeared in the "teaser" before the opening credits.
*'''[[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]'''
**49,604 - Death of [[Alastair Thorne]].
*'''[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]'''
**49,604 - No change since "Resurrection Ship, Part I".

'''Day 189'''
*'''[[Epiphanies]]'''
** 49,598 - Deaths of Admiral [[Helena Cain]] and an unnamed marine guard on ''Pegasus''. The remaining casualty count of four is conspicuously low given the scope of the [[Battle of the Resurrection Ship|battle]] depicted in the previous episode.

'''Dates Unknown'''
*'''[[Black Market]]'''
**49,597 - The death of a suicide bomber on the ''[[Daru Mozu]]''. Based on dialogue, the attack took the lives of the bomber and at least two civilians. This may have been offset by births in between the two episodes. The death of [[Jack Fisk]] was shown in the teaser of [[Black Market]], and should be counted in the opening credits.
*'''[[Scar]]'''
**49,593 - Deaths of Commander [[Jack Fisk]], Fisk's assassin, [[Phelan]], and one other person, presumably [[Beano]]. It is unclear where the death of Beano, the first of four pilots killed by Scar is counted. Since much of the episode, including the deaths of the four pilots killed by Scar, is shown in flashback.

*'''[[Sacrifice]]'''
**49,590 - Deaths of three pilots killed by Scar: [[Reilly]], [[Brent Baxton|Brent "BB" Baxton]], and [[Joseph Clark|Joseph "Jo-Jo" Clark]].

'''c. Day 210'''
*'''[[The Captain's Hand]]'''
**49,584 - Deaths of [[Sesha Abinell]], [[Kern Vinson]], [[Nelson Page]], [[George Chu]], and two unnamed marines, and [[Billy Keikeya]]. Sesha Abinell's husband Ray was killed during a Cylon attack ten weeks prior to this episode, but it does not appear to have been counted. It may have been offset by a birth.

'''c. Day 240'''
*'''[[The Captain's Hand]]'''
**49,579 - Deaths of [[Richard Bayer|Buster]], [[Lyla|Shark]], the two-man crew of [[Raptor 314]], and Commander [[Barry Garner]] (seen near the end on the white board).

'''Between c. Day 240 and c. Day 270'''
*'''[[Razor]] ( Present events)'''
**49,579 - confirms closing count from "The Captain's Hand".

'''c. Day 270'''
*'''[[Downloaded]]'''
**49,579 - confirms closing count from "The Captain's Hand". The count is either not updated to reflect the deaths of [[Kendra Shaw]] and [[Dasilva]] in "[[Razor]]" or there were births that offset those deaths.
*'''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]'''
**49,579 - No change since "[[Downloaded]]". It is unclear how the birth of [[Hera Agathon|Hera]] is counted. Her birth appears to be offset by the death of [[Maya]]'s child. Maya's child seems to be the one seen in the incubator, and whose ashes are spread out of a Raptor by Helo and Tyrol.
'''c. Day 280'''
*'''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'''
**49,550 - [[Raptor 612]] jumped into a mountain on Caprica. This could account for four people: A pilot, an ECO, and two marines.

'''During the Settlement of New Caprica (from c. Day 280 to c. Day 660)'''
*'''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'''
**After the "One Year Later" time jump later in the episode, the population of New Caprica City is given as 39,192. This includes separated military personnel, but does not include military and civilians in the small fleet orbiting the planet.
*'''[[Precipice]]'''
**According to Lee Adama, about 2,000 civilians escaped with the ships in orbit of New Caprica.
**Adama also states that both ''Galactica'' and ''Pegasus'' are at half strength (this can't be taken literally).
***A careful [[crew tally]] establishes that, at full strength, ''Galactica'' is crewed by about 2,808 people and ''Pegasus'' by about 2,445.
***The same tally indicates that immediately prior to the one-year jump, ''Galactica'' was crewed by about 2,600 people, and ''Pegasus'' by about 1,700. At half-strength, this puts the minimum number of military personnel at about 2,200.
**This puts our estimate of the total human population at roughly 43,400 (39,192 + 2000 + 2200)
**Subtracting from the figure of 49,550 given in "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II", this means that the total population fell by about 6150 people during the one-year gap. The majority of these deaths probably happened as a result of the destruction of ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' and the surrounding vessels.
:''For a confirmation of these estimates with more accurate numbers see the "[[Crossroads, Part I]]" section''

=== Season 3===

'''During the Occupation of New Caprica (from c. Day 660 to c. Day 798)'''
*An unknown number of people died in the insurgency and Cylon retaliation. However this must be offset by additional births during this four month time span. Accurately tracking the population numbers is impossible at this point, but known casualty figures are given below:
*'''c. Day 729'''
**'''[[Battlestar Galactica: The Resistance]]''' - 10 people are killed at the temple, including [[Nora Farmer]].
*'''c. Day 794'''
**'''[[Occupation]]''' - [[Tucker Clellan]] bombs the [[New Caprica Police]] graduation ceremony, killing 33 humans.
*'''c. Day 796'''
**'''[[Precipice]]''' - suicide bombing at the power substation kills 4 humans. Three resistance fighters die in the ambush at [[Breeders Canyon]].
*'''c. Day 798'''
**'''[[Exodus, Part II]]''' - numerous casualties during the evacuation of New Caprica, including [[Maya]]. [[Ellen Tigh]] is poisoned by her husband for collaborating with the Cylons, but as she is a Cylon herself her death is not counted.

'''c. Day 800'''
*'''[[Collaborators]]'''
**41,435 - Fleet population as of the third day of the Second Exodus. Given the above numbers, the death toll of the resistance and the [[Battle of New Caprica]] is about 2000 people. Given the total in the next episode, this figure does not reflect the 13 collaborators executed by the [[Circle]] between this episode and the last.
**Several hundred children might have been born on New Caprica. Since they are also included in the count, the Fleet has lost more older and able-bodied people than apparent.

'''c. Day 830'''
*'''[[Torn]]'''
**41,422 - Figure now reflects the 13 collaborators executed by the [[Circle]]. No deaths occur in this episode.

'''c. Day 831'''
*'''[[A Measure of Salvation]]'''
**41,420 - Two unseen deaths.

'''c. Day 935'''
*'''[[Hero]]'''
**41,421 - [[Daniel Novacek|Daniel "Bulldog" Novacek]] escapes from Cylon custody and joins the population of the fleet.

'''c. Day 950'''
*'''[[Unfinished Business]]'''
**41,422 - One birth.

'''Dates Unknown'''
*'''[[The Passage]]'''
**41,420 - Two unseen deaths.

*'''[[The Eye of Jupiter]]'''
**41,402 - Eighteen deaths from radiation exposure, including the skeleton crews of the ''[[Adriatic]]'' and the ''[[Carina]]''. This also includes [[Louanne Katraine|Louanne Katraine]].

*'''[[Rapture]]'''
**41,401 - One unseen death.

*'''[[Taking a Break from All Your Worries]]'''
**41,403 - Deaths of [[Hillard]] and [[Omar Fischer]]. [[Hera Agathon]], [[Gaius Baltar]] and [[Caprica-Six]] join the Fleet's population, in addition to two possible birth. Caprica-Six is not added to the count.

*'''[[The Woman King]]'''
**41,401 - Two unseen deaths.

*'''[[A Day in the Life]]'''
**41,398 - Deaths of [[Willie King]] and two other Sagittarons; possibly more if offset by births.

*'''[[Dirty Hands]]'''
**41,400 - Two births.

*'''[[Maelstrom]]'''
**41,400 - No net change.

*'''[[The Son Also Rises]]'''
**41,399 - Death of [[Kara Thrace]] in the prior episode, and [[Alan Hughes]] at the end of this episode's teaser. Hughes' death is either not counted, offset by a birth, or Thrace's death is not counted.

*'''[[Crossroads, Part I]]'''
**Unknown, as there is no intro for this episode.
**The following numbers are given during Baltar's trial by [[Cassidy]]: 44,035 - the number who settled on New Caprica; 38,838 - the number the day after the escape. However the number of escapees can only refer to the ''civilian'' population of the Fleet, and despite talking specifically about the people who settled on New Caprica, this number includes the ''total'' population, including those in orbit.
**This contradictory wording is a writing error, but interpreting them slightly differently confirms the estimates from "[[Precipice]]":
***41,435 (Collaborators) - 38,838 = 2,597 (the military personnel in the Fleet)
***44,035 - 39,192 (the inhabitants of [[New Caprica City]]) = 4,835 (the total population left in orbit)
***4,835 - 2,597 = 2,238 (in "Precipice" Lee Adama refers to roughly 2,000 civilians who escaped New Caprica)
***49,550 (count in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]") - 39,192 - 4,835 = 5,523 (the death toll prior to the occupation, mostly incurred with the destruction of ''[[Cloud Nine]]'')
***49,550 - 5,523 - 41,435 = 2,592 (the causalities of the Cylon occupation and the [[Battle of New Caprica|escape from New Caprica]])
:'''Note:''' While this number of military personnel fits with the estimate about their strength during the settlement of New Caprica, it still does not fit with the depiction of overcrowding on ''Galactica'' after the escape from the planet and the destruction of ''Pegasus'', since the battlestar was crewed with approximately 2,600 people to begin with. The number of civilians should therefore be lower.

*'''[[Crossroads, Part II]]'''
**Unknown, as there is no intro for this episode.

=== Season 4===

*'''[[He That Believeth In Me]]'''
**39,698 - A loss of [[Numerology#1701|1,701]], accounting for the ca. 600 deaths on ''[[Pyxis]]'', and ca. additional 1,100 deaths on other ships damaged during the [[Battle of the Ionian Nebula]], such as the ''[[Zephyr]]'' and ''[[Astral Queen]]''. The assumed dead [[Kara Thrace]] returns, presumably increasing the number by one. [[Samuel Anders]], [[Tory Foster]], [[Saul Tigh]], and [[Galen Tyrol]] likely removed from the count upon revelation of their Cylon nature.

*'''[[Six of One]]'''
**39,676 - 22 unaccounted for deaths from the previous episode. These may be people who were wounded in the battle, but died of their injuries later.

*'''[[The Ties That Bind]]'''
**39,676 - No change. [[Cally Tyrol]] dies during the course of the episode.

*'''[[Escape Velocity]]'''
**39,675 - Cally Tyrol's death is accounted for.

*'''[[The Road Less Traveled]]'''
**39,676 - An increase of one; likely a birth in the Fleet. Sergeant [[Erin Mathias]] dies during the episode.

*'''[[Faith]]'''
**39,675 - Mathias's death is accounted for. [[Jean Barolay]] and [[Emily Kowalski]] die during the episode.

*'''[[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]]'''
**39,673 - Barolay's and Kowalski's deaths are counted.

*'''[[Sine Qua Non]]'''
**39,674 - An unexplained increase by one. During the episode [[Eammon Pike]] is found the dead in the Raptor and several pilots were likely killed in the battle at the [[Resurrection Hub]]. [[Natalie Faust]] succumbs to her injuries from [[Sharon Agathon]]'s assassination attempt. Her death is not counted.

*'''[[The Hub]]'''
**39,673 - A decrease of one, possibly counting Pike's death. However, the episode takes place concurrently with "Sine Qua Non" and Pike only dies later in the episode.

*'''[[Revelations]]'''
**39,665 - A decrease of eight, likely accounting for the Colonial casualties during the [[Battle of the Resurrection Hub]].

*'''[[Sometimes a Great Notion]]'''
**39,651 - A decrease of fourteen. Accounting for the unnamed pilot executed by [[D'Anna Biers|D'Anna]] in "[[Revelations]]", and thirteen additional unexplained deaths.
**39,650 - [[Anastasia Dualla]] commits suicide.

*'''[[A Disquiet Follows My Soul]]'''
**39,644 - A loss of six. [[Esrin|Ensign "Easy" Esrin]], [[J. Finnegan|Lieutenant J. "Shark" Finnegan]], and [[Brooks|Specialist Brooks]] are murdered by "[[Number Eight|Sweet Eight]]" aboard [[Raptor 718]], and three possible suicides. 2 marines die in the course of the episode.

*'''[[The Oath]]'''
**39,643 - A loss of one, [[Peter Laird]] (killed by [[Tom Zarek]]).

*'''[[Blood on the Scales]]'''
** 39,603 - A loss of 40. Probably casualties of [[Gaeta's Mutiny|Felix Gaeta and Tom Zarek's coup d'etat]]. Private [[Stewart Jaffee]] and [[Maldonaldo|Lance Corporal Maldonaldo]] are among the slain.

*'''[[No Exit]]'''
** 39,556 - A loss of 47, including eleven members of the [[Quorum of Twelve (RDM)|Quorum]], [[Parr]], [[Tom Zarek]] and [[Felix Gaeta]], and other probable casualties of the coup.

*'''[[Deadlock]]'''
** 39,556 - No change. [[Ellen Tigh]] and [[Sharon Valerii]] return to the fleet but are not factored into the count.

*'''[[Someone to Watch Over Me]]'''
** 39,556 - No change.

*'''[[Islanded in a Stream of Stars]]'''
** 39,521 - 35 casualties from the damage done to ''Galactica'' by [[Sharon Valerii|Sharon "Boomer" Valerii]]'s mistimed FTL jump. Cylon workers are among the dead but are not factored into the count.

*'''[[Daybreak, Part I]]'''
** 39,516 - 5 unknown casualties, possibly people who were wounded in the previous episode but did not die until later.

*'''[[Daybreak, Part II]]'''
** Unknown - No opening count for this episode. Heavy losses incurred during the [[Battle of The Colony]] including (but not limited to): [[Margaret Edmonson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmonson]], [[Hamish McCall|Hamish "Skulls" McCall]], 4 other Viper pilots and the crews of 7 Raptors. Uncounted Cylon casualties include [[Sharon Valerii]], [[Number One|John Cavil]], [[Tory Foster]], and the entire Number One, [[Number Four|Four]], and [[Number Five|Five]] model lines.

*'''[[Daybreak, Part II|Daybreak, Part III]]'''
** 39,406 - Tally shown digitally available version of "Daybreak, Part III". A loss of 110, most likely casualties from the Battle of the Colony.
** approx. "38,000" - Closing count given by Admiral Adama, a verbal estimate of the number of survivors who survived to make it to the second [[Earth (RDM)|Earth]]. [[Laura Roslin]] dies on [[Earth]]. [[Kara Thrace|Kara "Starbuck" Thrace]] mysteriously vanishes. [[Samuel Anders]] pilots the Fleet into Earth's sun.

*'''150,000 Years Later'''
** 6,760,000,000 - Estimated current population of Earth, descendants of the survivors of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol.

==Analysis==
*The detonation of a nuclear warhead on ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' by the [[Number Six]] copy, [[Gina Inviere]], is the first time a ship has been destroyed since the destruction of the ''[[Olympic Carrier]]''.
*The ships ''[[Adriatic]]'' and ''[[Carina]]'' are also destroyed in "[[The Passage]]", however with only skeleton crews aboard.
*Since the end of "[[33]]", the Fleet's population has been dying off at a fairly steady rate of approximately 2.1 persons per day. At this rate, barring the arrival of more humans such as that seen in "[[Pegasus]]", the Fleet would be completely depopulated within a few decades.
*In "[[The Captain's Hand]]" (roughly in the region of Day 250-60), Dr. Baltar estimated that (factoring in the arrival of ''Pegasus''), given the survivor count's current rate of decline, never increasing, the human race will simply go extinct in 18 years. If this refers only to excess mortality, it would mean an average rate of roughly 7.5 people a day. It may be that Baltar's estimate considered more factors, such as labor shortages resulting in famine, which would complicate this model, resulting in the death rate exponentially increasing over time.
*First season survivor counts are available from [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin's]] whiteboard aboard ''[[Colonial One]]''. Second season survivor counts are included in the opening titles, as well as the presidential whiteboard.
*The loss of 8,115 people between "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]" and "[[Collaborators]]" is the highest net loss from one opening title count to another.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial]]
[[Category:Colonial History]]
[[Category:Colonial History (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

[[de:Anzahl der Überlebenden]]

Survivor count

2010-11-26T23:38:21Z

Presstilty: /* Graph */

:''This article involves the survivor count of the refugees in the [[Re-imagined Series]]. For a count of losses and gains in the Fleet incurred during the [[Original Series]], see: [[Fleet population]].''

The number of surviving Colonial citizens and military in the fleet was provided at intervals throughout the first season on a whiteboard on ''[[Colonial One]]'', and in one instance spoken aloud in dialogue. In the second season, this number appears in the opening credits of every episode (sometimes jokingly referred to as the "Countdown to Extinction"), and displays limited omniscience, updating itself to reflect the deaths on [[Kobol (RDM)|Kobol]] early in that season. This page collects the figures available thus far, cross-referenced with date information from [[Timeline (RDM)]].

==Graph==
[[Image:Fleet_Survivors.jpg]]
:''All dates up until 51 are exact, 51-950 use estimates below, all tallies past 950 use an average of 5 days between counts (it averages out)''

==Data==

===Season 1===

'''Zero Hour'''
*'''[[Miniseries]]'''
**50,000,000,000 - Estimated total population of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol prior to the Cylon attack ([[A Disquiet Follows My Soul]]).

'''Day 6'''
*'''[[33]]'''
**50,298 - Initial estimate.
**49,998 - Revised count. A decrease of 300.
**49,317 - Second revision. A decrease of 618 (cut scene, DVD).
**47,972 - A loss of 1345 after destruction of the ''[[Olympic Carrier]]''.
**47,973 - One birth aboard the ''[[Rising Star (RDM)|Rising Star]]''.

'''Day 10'''
*'''[[Water]]'''
**47,958 - A net loss of 15.

'''Day 15'''
*'''[[You Can't Go Home Again]]'''
**47,958 - 13 pilots killed in a hanger deck accident in "[[Act of Contrition]]", but the count is not updated.

'''Day 25'''
*'''[[Flesh and Bone]]'''
**47,954 - A net loss of 4 after deaths of a marine and three crew in "[[Litmus]]", the discovery of [[Ellen Tigh]] one week prior to "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]", and the disappearance of [[Shelly Godfrey]] in "[[Six Degrees of Separation]]". [[Number Five#Suicide Bomber Copy|Aaron Doral (Scorpia Traveler copy)]] was apparently not included among the fleet's population. The events of "Act of Contrition" have (still) not been accounted for.

'''Day 28'''
*'''[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]'''
**47,905 - A loss of 49. Total stated by Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]], possibly excluding himself and [[Sharon Valerii]].

'''Day 48'''
*'''[[Colonial Day]]'''
**47,898 - [[Valance]] is murdered while in custody aboard ''[[Cloud 9]]''. Four Viper pilots killed in "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]". Two additional unexplained deaths.

'''Day 50'''
*'''[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]'''
**47,897 - One unseen death.

'''Day 51'''
*'''[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]'''
**47,887 - [[Raptor 3]] destroyed over [[Kobol (RDM)|Kobol]] with 10 souls aboard.
*'''[[Scattered]]'''
**47,875 - [[Sharon Valerii|"Boomer" Valerii]] is removed from the count after her assassination attempt. Probably includes the death of [[Karma]] in "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]", since the on-screen total appears to include deaths on Kobol. 10 additional unseen deaths.

=== Season 2===

*'''[[Valley of Darkness]]'''
**47,874 - [[Tarn]] shot by Cylon Centurions.
*'''[[Fragged]]'''
**47,862 - [[Flyboy]] killed by Cylon Centurion. [[Socinus]] euthanized by [[Galen Tyrol]]. Additional casualties during Cylon boarding action of ''Galactica''.

'''Day 54 (est.)'''
*'''[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]'''
**47,861 - [[Crashdown]] shot by [[Gaius Baltar]].

'''Day 60 (est.)'''
*'''[[The Farm]]'''
** 47,857 - Four civilians massacred by marine strike team aboard the ''[[Gideon]]''.

'''Dates Unknown'''
*'''[[Home, Part I]]'''
** 47,858 - Return of [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], who was presumed dead. Caprica Valerii is not included in the count.
*'''[[Home, Part II]]'''
** 47,855 - Death of [[Elosha]] and a [[Laura Roslin faction|faction]] [[Wikipedia: Redshirt (character)|redshirt]].
*'''[[Final Cut]]'''
** 47,853 - Death of [[Meier]] and unnamed Tom Zarek henchman in "Home, Part II".

'''Day 86 (est.)
*'''[[Flight of the Phoenix]]'''
** 47,853 - No change since "Final Cut".

'''Dates Unknown'''
*'''[[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]'''
**49,605 - After the return of the battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', a dramatic increase of 1,752 over the previous count. The change is shown in the opening credits of [[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]], since the ship appeared in the "teaser" before the opening credits.
*'''[[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]'''
**49,604 - Death of [[Alastair Thorne]].
*'''[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]'''
**49,604 - No change since "Resurrection Ship, Part I".

'''Day 189'''
*'''[[Epiphanies]]'''
** 49,598 - Deaths of Admiral [[Helena Cain]] and an unnamed marine guard on ''Pegasus''. The remaining casualty count of four is conspicuously low given the scope of the [[Battle of the Resurrection Ship|battle]] depicted in the previous episode.

'''Dates Unknown'''
*'''[[Black Market]]'''
**49,597 - The death of a suicide bomber on the ''[[Daru Mozu]]''. Based on dialogue, the attack took the lives of the bomber and at least two civilians. This may have been offset by births in between the two episodes. The death of [[Jack Fisk]] was shown in the teaser of [[Black Market]], and should be counted in the opening credits.
*'''[[Scar]]'''
**49,593 - Deaths of Commander [[Jack Fisk]], Fisk's assassin, [[Phelan]], and one other person, presumably [[Beano]]. It is unclear where the death of Beano, the first of four pilots killed by Scar is counted. Since much of the episode, including the deaths of the four pilots killed by Scar, is shown in flashback.

*'''[[Sacrifice]]'''
**49,590 - Deaths of three pilots killed by Scar: [[Reilly]], [[Brent Baxton|Brent "BB" Baxton]], and [[Joseph Clark|Joseph "Jo-Jo" Clark]].

'''c. Day 210'''
*'''[[The Captain's Hand]]'''
**49,584 - Deaths of [[Sesha Abinell]], [[Kern Vinson]], [[Nelson Page]], [[George Chu]], and two unnamed marines, and [[Billy Keikeya]]. Sesha Abinell's husband Ray was killed during a Cylon attack ten weeks prior to this episode, but it does not appear to have been counted. It may have been offset by a birth.

'''c. Day 240'''
*'''[[The Captain's Hand]]'''
**49,579 - Deaths of [[Richard Bayer|Buster]], [[Lyla|Shark]], the two-man crew of [[Raptor 314]], and Commander [[Barry Garner]] (seen near the end on the white board).

'''Between c. Day 240 and c. Day 270'''
*'''[[Razor]] ( Present events)'''
**49,579 - confirms closing count from "The Captain's Hand".

'''c. Day 270'''
*'''[[Downloaded]]'''
**49,579 - confirms closing count from "The Captain's Hand". The count is either not updated to reflect the deaths of [[Kendra Shaw]] and [[Dasilva]] in "[[Razor]]" or there were births that offset those deaths.
*'''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]'''
**49,579 - No change since "[[Downloaded]]". It is unclear how the birth of [[Hera Agathon|Hera]] is counted. Her birth appears to be offset by the death of [[Maya]]'s child. Maya's child seems to be the one seen in the incubator, and whose ashes are spread out of a Raptor by Helo and Tyrol.
'''c. Day 280'''
*'''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'''
**49,550 - [[Raptor 612]] jumped into a mountain on Caprica. This could account for four people: A pilot, an ECO, and two marines.

'''During the Settlement of New Caprica (from c. Day 280 to c. Day 660)'''
*'''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'''
**After the "One Year Later" time jump later in the episode, the population of New Caprica City is given as 39,192. This includes separated military personnel, but does not include military and civilians in the small fleet orbiting the planet.
*'''[[Precipice]]'''
**According to Lee Adama, about 2,000 civilians escaped with the ships in orbit of New Caprica.
**Adama also states that both ''Galactica'' and ''Pegasus'' are at half strength (this can't be taken literally).
***A careful [[crew tally]] establishes that, at full strength, ''Galactica'' is crewed by about 2,808 people and ''Pegasus'' by about 2,445.
***The same tally indicates that immediately prior to the one-year jump, ''Galactica'' was crewed by about 2,600 people, and ''Pegasus'' by about 1,700. At half-strength, this puts the minimum number of military personnel at about 2,200.
**This puts our estimate of the total human population at roughly 43,400 (39,192 + 2000 + 2200)
**Subtracting from the figure of 49,550 given in "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II", this means that the total population fell by about 6150 people during the one-year gap. The majority of these deaths probably happened as a result of the destruction of ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' and the surrounding vessels.
:''For a confirmation of these estimates with more accurate numbers see the "[[Crossroads, Part I]]" section''

=== Season 3===

'''During the Occupation of New Caprica (from c. Day 660 to c. Day 798)'''
*An unknown number of people died in the insurgency and Cylon retaliation. However this must be offset by additional births during this four month time span. Accurately tracking the population numbers is impossible at this point, but known casualty figures are given below:
*'''c. Day 729'''
**'''[[Battlestar Galactica: The Resistance]]''' - 10 people are killed at the temple, including [[Nora Farmer]].
*'''c. Day 794'''
**'''[[Occupation]]''' - [[Tucker Clellan]] bombs the [[New Caprica Police]] graduation ceremony, killing 33 humans.
*'''c. Day 796'''
**'''[[Precipice]]''' - suicide bombing at the power substation kills 4 humans. Three resistance fighters die in the ambush at [[Breeders Canyon]].
*'''c. Day 798'''
**'''[[Exodus, Part II]]''' - numerous casualties during the evacuation of New Caprica, including [[Maya]]. [[Ellen Tigh]] is poisoned by her husband for collaborating with the Cylons, but as she is a Cylon herself her death is not counted.

'''c. Day 800'''
*'''[[Collaborators]]'''
**41,435 - Fleet population as of the third day of the Second Exodus. Given the above numbers, the death toll of the resistance and the [[Battle of New Caprica]] is about 2000 people. Given the total in the next episode, this figure does not reflect the 13 collaborators executed by the [[Circle]] between this episode and the last.
**Several hundred children might have been born on New Caprica. Since they are also included in the count, the Fleet has lost more older and able-bodied people than apparent.

'''c. Day 830'''
*'''[[Torn]]'''
**41,422 - Figure now reflects the 13 collaborators executed by the [[Circle]]. No deaths occur in this episode.

'''c. Day 831'''
*'''[[A Measure of Salvation]]'''
**41,420 - Two unseen deaths.

'''c. Day 935'''
*'''[[Hero]]'''
**41,421 - [[Daniel Novacek|Daniel "Bulldog" Novacek]] escapes from Cylon custody and joins the population of the fleet.

'''c. Day 950'''
*'''[[Unfinished Business]]'''
**41,422 - One birth.

'''Dates Unknown'''
*'''[[The Passage]]'''
**41,420 - Two unseen deaths.

*'''[[The Eye of Jupiter]]'''
**41,402 - Eighteen deaths from radiation exposure, including the skeleton crews of the ''[[Adriatic]]'' and the ''[[Carina]]''. This also includes [[Louanne Katraine|Louanne Katraine]].

*'''[[Rapture]]'''
**41,401 - One unseen death.

*'''[[Taking a Break from All Your Worries]]'''
**41,403 - Deaths of [[Hillard]] and [[Omar Fischer]]. [[Hera Agathon]], [[Gaius Baltar]] and [[Caprica-Six]] join the Fleet's population, in addition to two possible birth. Caprica-Six is not added to the count.

*'''[[The Woman King]]'''
**41,401 - Two unseen deaths.

*'''[[A Day in the Life]]'''
**41,398 - Deaths of [[Willie King]] and two other Sagittarons; possibly more if offset by births.

*'''[[Dirty Hands]]'''
**41,400 - Two births.

*'''[[Maelstrom]]'''
**41,400 - No net change.

*'''[[The Son Also Rises]]'''
**41,399 - Death of [[Kara Thrace]] in the prior episode, and [[Alan Hughes]] at the end of this episode's teaser. Hughes' death is either not counted, offset by a birth, or Thrace's death is not counted.

*'''[[Crossroads, Part I]]'''
**Unknown, as there is no intro for this episode.
**The following numbers are given during Baltar's trial by [[Cassidy]]: 44,035 - the number who settled on New Caprica; 38,838 - the number the day after the escape. However the number of escapees can only refer to the ''civilian'' population of the Fleet, and despite talking specifically about the people who settled on New Caprica, this number includes the ''total'' population, including those in orbit.
**This contradictory wording is a writing error, but interpreting them slightly differently confirms the estimates from "[[Precipice]]":
***41,435 (Collaborators) - 38,838 = 2,597 (the military personnel in the Fleet)
***44,035 - 39,192 (the inhabitants of [[New Caprica City]]) = 4,835 (the total population left in orbit)
***4,835 - 2,597 = 2,238 (in "Precipice" Lee Adama refers to roughly 2,000 civilians who escaped New Caprica)
***49,550 (count in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]") - 39,192 - 4,835 = 5,523 (the death toll prior to the occupation, mostly incurred with the destruction of ''[[Cloud Nine]]'')
***49,550 - 5,523 - 41,435 = 2,592 (the causalities of the Cylon occupation and the [[Battle of New Caprica|escape from New Caprica]])
:'''Note:''' While this number of military personnel fits with the estimate about their strength during the settlement of New Caprica, it still does not fit with the depiction of overcrowding on ''Galactica'' after the escape from the planet and the destruction of ''Pegasus'', since the battlestar was crewed with approximately 2,600 people to begin with. The number of civilians should therefore be lower.

*'''[[Crossroads, Part II]]'''
**Unknown, as there is no intro for this episode.

=== Season 4===

*'''[[He That Believeth In Me]]'''
**39,698 - A loss of [[Numerology#1701|1,701]], accounting for the ca. 600 deaths on ''[[Pyxis]]'', and ca. additional 1,100 deaths on other ships damaged during the [[Battle of the Ionian Nebula]], such as the ''[[Zephyr]]'' and ''[[Astral Queen]]''. The assumed dead [[Kara Thrace]] returns, presumably increasing the number by one. [[Samuel Anders]], [[Tory Foster]], [[Saul Tigh]], and [[Galen Tyrol]] likely removed from the count upon revelation of their Cylon nature.

*'''[[Six of One]]'''
**39,676 - 22 unaccounted for deaths from the previous episode. These may be people who were wounded in the battle, but died of their injuries later.

*'''[[The Ties That Bind]]'''
**39,676 - No change. [[Cally Tyrol]] dies during the course of the episode.

*'''[[Escape Velocity]]'''
**39,675 - Cally Tyrol's death is accounted for.

*'''[[The Road Less Traveled]]'''
**39,676 - An increase of one; likely a birth in the Fleet. Sergeant [[Erin Mathias]] dies during the episode.

*'''[[Faith]]'''
**39,675 - Mathias's death is accounted for. [[Jean Barolay]] and [[Emily Kowalski]] die during the episode.

*'''[[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]]'''
**39,673 - Barolay's and Kowalski's deaths are counted.

*'''[[Sine Qua Non]]'''
**39,674 - An unexplained increase by one. During the episode [[Eammon Pike]] is found the dead in the Raptor and several pilots were likely killed in the battle at the [[Resurrection Hub]]. [[Natalie Faust]] succumbs to her injuries from [[Sharon Agathon]]'s assassination attempt. Her death is not counted.

*'''[[The Hub]]'''
**39,673 - A decrease of one, possibly counting Pike's death. However, the episode takes place concurrently with "Sine Qua Non" and Pike only dies later in the episode.

*'''[[Revelations]]'''
**39,665 - A decrease of eight, likely accounting for the Colonial casualties during the [[Battle of the Resurrection Hub]].

*'''[[Sometimes a Great Notion]]'''
**39,651 - A decrease of fourteen. Accounting for the unnamed pilot executed by [[D'Anna Biers|D'Anna]] in "[[Revelations]]", and thirteen additional unexplained deaths.
**39,650 - [[Anastasia Dualla]] commits suicide.

*'''[[A Disquiet Follows My Soul]]'''
**39,644 - A loss of six. [[Esrin|Ensign "Easy" Esrin]], [[J. Finnegan|Lieutenant J. "Shark" Finnegan]], and [[Brooks|Specialist Brooks]] are murdered by "[[Number Eight|Sweet Eight]]" aboard [[Raptor 718]], and three possible suicides. 2 marines die in the course of the episode.

*'''[[The Oath]]'''
**39,643 - A loss of one, [[Peter Laird]] (killed by [[Tom Zarek]]).

*'''[[Blood on the Scales]]'''
** 39,603 - A loss of 40. Probably casualties of [[Gaeta's Mutiny|Felix Gaeta and Tom Zarek's coup d'etat]]. Private [[Stewart Jaffee]] and [[Maldonaldo|Lance Corporal Maldonaldo]] are among the slain.

*'''[[No Exit]]'''
** 39,556 - A loss of 47, including eleven members of the [[Quorum of Twelve (RDM)|Quorum]], [[Parr]], [[Tom Zarek]] and [[Felix Gaeta]], and other probable casualties of the coup.

*'''[[Deadlock]]'''
** 39,556 - No change. [[Ellen Tigh]] and [[Sharon Valerii]] return to the fleet but are not factored into the count.

*'''[[Someone to Watch Over Me]]'''
** 39,556 - No change.

*'''[[Islanded in a Stream of Stars]]'''
** 39,521 - 35 casualties from the damage done to ''Galactica'' by [[Sharon Valerii|Sharon "Boomer" Valerii]]'s mistimed FTL jump. Cylon workers are among the dead but are not factored into the count.

*'''[[Daybreak, Part I]]'''
** 39,516 - 5 unknown casualties, possibly people who were wounded in the previous episode but did not die until later.

*'''[[Daybreak, Part II]]'''
** Unknown - No opening count for this episode. Heavy losses incurred during the [[Battle of The Colony]] including (but not limited to): [[Margaret Edmonson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmonson]], [[Hamish McCall|Hamish "Skulls" McCall]], 4 other Viper pilots and the crews of 7 Raptors. Uncounted Cylon casualties include [[Sharon Valerii]], [[Number One|John Cavil]], [[Tory Foster]], and the entire Number One, [[Number Four|Four]], and [[Number Five|Five]] model lines.

*'''[[Daybreak, Part II|Daybreak, Part III]]'''
** 39,406 - Tally shown digitally available version of "Daybreak, Part III". A loss of 110, most likely casualties from the Battle of the Colony.
** approx. "38,000" - Closing count given by Admiral Adama, a verbal estimate of the number of survivors who survived to make it to the second [[Earth (RDM)|Earth]]. [[Laura Roslin]] dies on [[Earth]]. [[Kara Thrace|Kara "Starbuck" Thrace]] mysteriously vanishes. [[Samuel Anders]] pilots the Fleet into Earth's sun.

*'''150,000 Years Later'''
** 6,760,000,000 - Estimated current population of Earth, descendants of the survivors of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol.

==Analysis==
*The detonation of a nuclear warhead on ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' by the [[Number Six]] copy, [[Gina Inviere]], is the first time a ship has been destroyed since the destruction of the ''[[Olympic Carrier]]''.
*The ships ''[[Adriatic]]'' and ''[[Carina]]'' are also destroyed in "[[The Passage]]", however with only skeleton crews aboard.
*Since the end of "[[33]]", the Fleet's population has been dying off at a fairly steady rate of approximately 2.1 persons per day. At this rate, barring the arrival of more humans such as that seen in "[[Pegasus]]", the Fleet would be completely depopulated within a few decades.
*In "[[The Captain's Hand]]" (roughly in the region of Day 250-60), Dr. Baltar estimated that (factoring in the arrival of ''Pegasus''), given the survivor count's current rate of decline, never increasing, the human race will simply go extinct in 18 years. If this refers only to excess mortality, it would mean an average rate of roughly 7.5 people a day. It may be that Baltar's estimate considered more factors, such as labor shortages resulting in famine, which would complicate this model, resulting in the death rate exponentially increasing over time.
*First season survivor counts are available from [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin's]] whiteboard aboard ''[[Colonial One]]''. Second season survivor counts are included in the opening titles, as well as the presidential whiteboard.
*The loss of 8,115 people between "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]" and "[[Collaborators]]" is the highest net loss from one opening title count to another.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial]]
[[Category:Colonial History]]
[[Category:Colonial History (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

[[de:Anzahl der Überlebenden]]

Talk:33/Archive 1

2010-11-26T21:09:09Z

Presstilty: /* The Cylons shouldn't appear when they do. */

== Regarding the nit-picking ==

Personally, I believe these should be reserved for the Discussion page, but I won't edit them out. I will discuss them here though:

-The Raptor
The Raptor is the equivalent of a US Navy E-3 AWACS or A-6 Intruder. It has an advanced sensor package that would make it invaluable in combat situations. I think the CAG's order for the Raptor to retreat was due more to the fact that the incoming Raiders were indeed hostile and her services were no longer necessary.
It is ludicrous to suppose that Raptors are unarmed. (And, as we saw in the S1 Finale, they are indeed armed and are capable of even heavier armaments.) However, it is feasable to infer that they are not front-line combat craft such as the Viper.
With regard to the specific situation, the Raptor was necessary to feel-out the ''Carrier''. It is presumably SOP for a Raptor to accompany any inspections in order scan said vessel for any hazards. A better question here is why didn't the Raptor detect the radiological alarm?

-9/11
How is this misplaced? This was their 9/11. What more do I need to say here?

-Destruction of the ''Olympic Carrier''
I disagree with the statement that the ambiguity of the people on board weakens the story. By us not knowing, it allows us to sympathize with Lee as he wrestles with the idea of destroying the ship. He didn't know if there were people aboard. True, he did not see anyone in the windows, but perhaps his view was obstructed. Perhaps the people in the particular windows were sleeping? We can suppose several ideas here, but the fact of the matter is that the ship had to be destroyed, it was destroyed, and Lee eventually came to terms with it's destruction. Were there people on board? We will honestly never know. The point here is that regardless, 1,300 souls are now dead.

-Tigh's Alcoholism
This is the central flaw of this character. Why would they NOT remind us? It is the one thing that prevents us from placing our trust in him and relying on him as we rely on Cmdr. Adama. Expect to see more of this.

This is just a response to the nitpicking. Please do not take this as a personal attack. --[[User:TxRedcoat|TxRedcoat]] 09:00, 8 Apr 2005 (EDT)

== Billy's crappy math ==

:''Billy reports that the number of survivors is down by 300 - some lost through death from injuries, etc., some "lost" through initial inaccurate counts, and the rest of whom have "disappeared". How can people simply "disappear" in the fleet?''

Well, given his crappy math, it's easy to see why :)

: Well, actually, if you think about it, there should be several secluded places that come to mind when you want to commit suicide on a ship. This is post-Holocaust. I wouldn't be surprised if some people just killed themselves. -- [[User:yenguyen|YeNguyen]] 18:15, 10 July 2005 (EST)

: Honestly, I think the point is that if [[Billy Keikeya|Billy]] knew '''why''' these people were now unaccounted for, he'd say so. Not knowing, the only thing he can say is that they've disappeared. As [[User:yenguyen|YeNguyen]] says above, some of them probably stepped into a convenient airlock. Some, unpleasant as it may sound, may have been pushed -- cramped conditions, high tension, short tempers...some people may have gotten voted off the island, as it were. A few were probably Cylon agents, like the copy of [[Leoben Conoy]] that pops up in "[[Flesh and Bone]]", who went to ground. Honestly, there's enough confusion in this situation that having only 300 go completely unaccounted for is not bad. --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 00:18, 24 February 2006 (EST)

== US Air Date ==

What is the real US Airdate? Two shows can't have the same Airdate. :x --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 16:14, 17 March 2006 (CST)
:Query: Have we found out the the airdate problem? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:52, 27 July 2006 (CDT)
::33 and Water premired back to back on the same night on Scifi. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 16:35, 27 July 2006 (CDT)
:::I must have not noticed that..... Very werid indead. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:36, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

== Summary from SciFi.com ==

Is this section needed? I noticed that with "Valley of Darkness" we stopped including them. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 12:21, 2 July 2006 (CDT)

== - supposition ==

: "They cold have been the people on the Prometheus([[Black Market]])"
This is unlikely, as this episode is set immediately after the miniseries and the fleet has been continually jumping to avoid the Cylons. Prometheus is unlikely to have become a hub for black market goods in this time, much less established the beginnings of a slave trade. — '''[[User:pd_THOR|pd_THOR]]''' |''' [[User_talk:pd_THOR|=/\=]]''' 22:15, 8 November 2006 (CST)

== Interwiki Bot Problem ==

The interwiki bot thinks, when it reads this article, is 33 ad the date. I am suggested we move it to [[33 minutes]] and have [[33]] redirect to it. I would for sure put a technical reason dismb. top explain the problem. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:01, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:Can't you code something like "IF title == 33 THEN ignore" :) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:15, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::Never learned to code Python.... well... there no time like the present. :-) [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:28, 21 January 2007 (CST)

==About Supposed Crashdown Error==
* Crashdown wears a patch of the battlestar Triton on his flight suit, which fits to Boomer's comment that she has been saddled with a "refugee from Triton". Triton's Battlestar Group number is 39 but is erroneously displayed on the patch as BST-39 instead of BSG-39.
: Would this be because BSG stands for ''B''attle ''S''tar ''G''alactica and BST stands for ''B''attle ''S''tar ''T''riton ? - [[User:Imnewhere|Imnewhere]] 00:22, 2 December 2007 (CST)
:: OK, BSG stands for BattleStar Group. It wasn't clear to me, my bad. - [[User:Imnewhere|Imnewhere]] 00:53, 2 December 2007 (CST)
:::Yeah that was just a little costuming error there. See [[Insignia (RDM)#References]]. --[[User:OrionFour|OrionFour]] 01:27, 2 December 2007 (CST)
:::I'll edit the note to make it a bit clearer :) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:27, 2 December 2007 (CST)

== Boomer's Viper patch ==

In one of the briefing room scenes, Boomer is shown to be wearing a flightsuit with a Viper patch on the shoulder. However, all other scenes show her flightsuit to have a Raptor patch. This is a goof. Why isn't it noted? [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 18:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
:In all likelihood, because nobody noticed it before you. Feel free to note it on this page and on [[Continuity errors (RDM)]], along with a relevant screen capture. And thanks for your contribution to Battlestar Wiki! --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

== The Cylons shouldn't appear when they do. ==

If the Cylons are tracking the ''Olympic Carrier'', then it should take them 33 minutes to follow it, not ''Galactica''. When Gaeta starts the clock when ''Galactica'' finishes her jump, the Cylons would appear before it ends, since the ''Carrier'' had jumped first. So the Cylons wouldn't appear as soon as the erroneous clock hits 00:00:00. --[[User:Presstilty|Presstilty]] 00:58, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
: It's a bit of a futz, but not much of one. You can't be extremely anal about such things, since it would only detract from the narrative. Also, depends on when the clock gets started, since it takes a few seconds to reset and sync the clocks (both digital and throughout the ship). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 01:37, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
:: Presuming that the ''Olympic Carrier'' has been jumping roughly the same amount of time before ''Galactica'' each time, it's not a futz. The crew've noticed it takes ~33 minutes after each jump by ''Galactica'' for the Cylons to appear. So it's taking a bit longer than that for the Cylons to track the ''Carrier'' each time. It's a regular and predictable pattern regardless of which ship is being tracked. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:27, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
::: Actually, what Presstilty points out is true. Every time ''Galactica'' jumps back into the Fleet, they reset the clock from ''that'' point. ''Galactica'' has ''always'' been the last ship to jump, since she's launching fighter cover (and later retrieving them via combat landings) and providing cover fire for the rest of the civvies. These actions add minutes to the clock, really. And, since they are tracking ''Olympic Carrier'', a ship that's always jumped before ''Galactica'' then the Cylons should really be jumping in well before the timer runs out. So, yeah, it's fudging the facts a bit. Then again, the pilots we see should be experiencing microsleep at the point we encounter them in the story, and they're really not. (At least, not on screen, haha.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 14:58, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
:::: No. Assuming ''Olympic Carrier'' always jumps 3 minutes (for example) before ''Galactica'' jumps and the Cylons always take 36 minutes to track the ''Olympic Carrier'', the Cylons always arrive 33 minutes after ''Galactica'' jumps. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
::::: Sadly, this isn't the case. The reappearance of ''Olympic Carrier'' after it was "lost" discounts your claim, seeing as it took the Cylons 33 minutes to track ''Olympic Carrier.'' -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:02, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
:::::: It did? I don't remember how long it took for the Cylons to show up after the ''Olympic Carrier'' came back. Alternatively, the Cylons don't start tracking the ''Carrier'' until they're no longer busy fighting ''Galactica''. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
::::::: Yes it did. After ''Carrier'' returned to the Fleet, Adama had Gaeta reset the clock to 33 minutes. When it ran out, the Cylons jumped in, ''Carrier'' moved toward the Fleet, and the ''Carrier'' was taken out. Also, RDM was deliberate in never revealing how the Cylons were tracking the Fleet. Hybrids can multi-task, so as the Cylons launch their attack and Raiders they're simultaneously tracking the Fleet. ;-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:30, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
::::::::My real point was that they shouldn't appear "on the dot." There's going to be some difference, especially when you are counting in seconds, between the Carrier's jump and Galactica's. Maybe it takes 26 minutes to track the Carrier, but they don't always jump in the same order, it seems to me like its a jump-ASAP thing. Either way, the Cylons shouldn't appear at the 00:00:00 mark, exactly.--[[User:Presstilty|Presstilty]] 05:55, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::At the end of the day, it's a story conceit. Making it truly realistic would just get in the way of the narrative, and interfere with the character interaction. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 06:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::What noneofyoubusiness says could be true, but for me personally, things like that detract from the story. Don't get me wrong, I like this episode, and I only noticed this after a lot of viewings. I think it would have made it so much more scarier if sometimes they appeared at 32 minutes or 36. --[[User:Presstilty|Presstilty]] 21:09, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Talk:33/Archive 1

2010-11-25T05:55:26Z

Presstilty: /* The Cylons shouldn't appear when they do. */

Talk:33/Archive 1

2010-10-27T00:58:13Z

Presstilty: /* The Cylons shouldn't appear when they do. */ new section