Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Season two timeline discontinuity/Archive 1

2007-01-06T19:43:18Z

PhoenixFlight: /* The 75 day gap: not important. */

Please explain the basis for the statement:

"Shortly before Cally's release, Dr. Cottle updates Laura Roslin's prognosis, stating that she has one month to live, "at the outside". This puts her projected death at day 114."

On the DVD copy of Flight of the Phoenix on the Season 2.0 set, the order events in this episode are. 1) Cally is released from the brig, 2) Tyrol begins construction of the Blackbird. 3) Laura is given one month to live. There is no basis for the above statement unless the DVD version of this episode is somehow different to the broadcast version. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 21:01, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:Interesting. I seem to have been convinced that Cally's release constrained Laura's life span projection somehow, but I can't seem to remember my reasoning on review. The alternative, I guess, is that about two and a half months passed in between Helo and Tyrol's fight (which was the same night as Cally's party) and Roslin's diagnosis. In the intervening scenes...
:*Dualla gets fried by the logic bomb and sent to Cottle
:*Lee nags Tyrol about Viper 289, leading him to come up with the idea for the Blackbird.
:*Tyrol starts the Blackbird project
:Still, all the construction work on the blackbird takes place after Roslin's diagnosis. I can see fudging a week here at the outside, but nothing more than that. Anyone else have thoughts? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:44, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::There's always the "different scenes do not take place concurrently" explanation. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 22:27, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::Also the statement that all the construction work happens after the diagnosis is somewhat false as we see that Tyrol has started building at least one frame before the diagnosis. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 12:57, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:If we work backwards. 'Epiphanies' happens on Day 189. Therefore if we assume that Roslin lasts the full 30 days that means her final diagnosis comes around day 155-158.

:There is enough slack for the remaining events in 'Flight of the Phoenix' to happen in the time before the arrival of the Pegasus. So the question becomes is there any reason why around 70 days (10 weeks) could not have passed between Cally's release and Roslins diagnosis ?.

:The answer is difficult to come by for the reason that the episode was edited to avoid having to track the passage of time. But we have a few metrics that we can use to judge the passage of time. The main one is the progress of construction of the Blackbird.

:When we first see Tyrol building the Blackbird (which is before Roslins diagnosis), he has complete plans and the first frame ready. The next time we see the Blackbird after Roslins diagnosis it has a complete airframe with some electronics installed (but no wings). Given that Tyrol is working on the Blackbird by himself and in his spare time it is not unreasonable to say that it took several weeks to get to this point so it would lead to a decent chunk of time passing before Roslins final diagnosis.

:There is also scope for time to be added between Tyrol and Apollo's conversation and the beginning of Tyrol building the Blackbird. Given when he starts construction of the Blackbird he already has detailed plans, so its likey that some time has passed between deciding to build it and the actual build. It would not be unreasonable to say that putting the plans together took time a couple of weeks given that he is working part time on the project.

:There is one other metric we have for judging the passage, which is Gator debugging the ships systems. He says it could takes days, and the next time we get an update on this it is after Roslins diagnosis. It's obvious that some passage of time has occurred but how long remains up for debate. But I do think that several weeks might be pushing it a little, but there is nothing to say that it didn't take this long after all a Battlestar is a big ship with lots of systems and Gator may just have been talking about just debugging the console code.

:To be honest I think we are making a mountain out of a molehill. Yes the timeline goes a bit screwy in this episode, but there is nothing that flat out contradicts the statement that 'Pegasus' takes place six months after the fall of the Colonies. Similarly there is nothing that flat out proves beyond doubt that 'Flight Of The Phoenix' happened over 100 days.

:In either case, this page and the timeline need to be re-edited as several of the statements made are based on the faulty premise that Roslins final diagnosis was before Cally's release. Given that this is not the case I think that the discussion on these pages needs to be changed. I would suggest that the timeline is kept fairly clear of discussion and this page state the facts and discussion for or against and then let the reader decide --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 12:51, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::I think Tyrol's work on [[Viper 289]] argues against this very strongly. We first see him inspect the craft and label it defunct prior to Cally's release. Apollo speaks to him about it, and he starts work on the Blackbird that night. I really don't think the amount of work accomplished on the Blackbird between that event (which was a few days after day 84 at most) and the airframe we see after Roslin's diagnosis can be stretched over two months. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:13, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::I don't know how long it would take to build a spacecraft so don't have an accurate estimate. I suspect that it would be the same as building a modern fighter aircraft. Looking at Google I have one [http://www.iiss.org/confPress-more.php?confID=731 article] (last paragraph) claiming it takes 2 years to build one F-15. Keep in mind that Tyrol is working on the Blackbird in his spare time so probably can only spend a few hours of a day working on it. Given these two facts I don't see 2 months being too outlandish. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 13:42, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::::It's not outlandish at all, but what I'm trying to say is that it just doesn't fit with what we've been shown. The majority of the Blackbird's construction takes place after Roslin's diagnosis, thus, within the span of about three weeks. It seems implausible to argue that the earlier stages of construction took over twice that long. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:47, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Remember that after Roslin's diagnosis several people started helping Tyrol with the work, the key scene being when one of the engineers helped Tyrol with fitting the wing (which he was having trouble doing by himself). At this point the shot shows the airframe being complete, with cabling and electronics fitted to it some places. After this point the remainder of the deck crew start working on the ship with Tyrol, so its likely that work after the diagnosis moved far quicker than before because more people were working on the project. So I don't think its implausible to argue that with more hands and more time spent, the quicker the project would be completed. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 14:07, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::Also, note that if we do "delay" "Flight of the Phoenix" to match up with "Epiphanies", we have to explain Boomer's pregnancy advancing by about two months within the span of a week. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:21, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::I'm willing to write this one off as one of the side effects of working with an actress who isn't really pregnant and the production staff trying to keep costs down by not wanting to invest money into more than one prosthetic. Many shows get this wrong so its not an uncommon mistake. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 13:42, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::::I'm not. There's plenty of other evidence to indicate that they simply lost track. Sharon is still doing ''sit-ups'' in "Pegasus". By "Epiphanies", she's quite... heavy with child. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:46, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::::I'm not arguing that there haven't been production screw ups with the timeline. It happens all the time on TV shows. What I am arguing is that the discontinuity isn't as great as is being made out and in some cases can be accounted for (to a certain degree). --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 14:07, 5 March 2006 (CST)

No, Rexpop, it is a big discontunity. Between 2 and 3 months were simply skipped. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:27, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== The 75 day gap: not important. ==

I think this gap that everyone is making a fuss over is much ado about nothing. As long as there is no contradictions I think it is no problem. Most of the things that are being listed as problems and discontinuity are simply delays. For example I think when it comes to Roslin's delayed journey to the death bed was simply due to perhaps to her individual constitution and it is possible that the Herbal potion she liked did work a little. She simply defied the odds for a while as what happens in real life sometimes. I am sure Cottle's studies of women in similar situation as Roslin was in and his own experience said that she would die within a certain time period, but it is not a hard and fast rule. Just because a doctor gives you three months to live it doesn't mean you '''''will''''' die exactly 90 days later. Odds borne out of experience say that it will happen around then, but it could be only a month later that death comes, or three months past the deadline, defying the averages. This is by no means unheard of.

As regards to Sharon's pregnancy, this just verifies my contention that there are undocumented time gaps. It is not as if we are seeing life aboard ''Galactica'' every day in real time, but only when important events takes place, so only two episodes are within the 75 day gap between [[Pegasus]] and [[Epiphanies]], just like there was only about three episodes that covered the five months-150 days-between [[Collaborators]] and [[Unfinished Business]]. In this case one can treat '''Pegasus''' & '''Resurrection ship Parts I & II''' as one single three part episode since they obviously are so close in time; i.e. '''Resurrection ship Part I''' takes up immediately after '''Pegasus'''; '''Resurrection ship Part II''' in turn takes up immediately after '''Resurrection ship Part I'''. Now the time gap comes in between '''Resurrection ship Part II''' and '''Epiphanies'''. Why is there a time gap? Simply because nothing happened of any significance in between except that Sharon's pregnancy progressed and Laura Roslin's condition deteriorated. When the important facts of Roslin being near death is reached and Sharon almost loosing her baby via abortion happens '''Epiphanies''' documents it 72 days after the events of '''Resurrection ship Part II'''.

As for the delayed elections I think given the arrival of ''Pegasus'' and its personnel, it could be fanwanked to be said that the elections was moved back and delayed to give the new arrivals time to acclimatize and get familiar with the issues of the fleet. Then there was the crisis of command between Cain and Adama; the near civil war between ''Galactica'' and ''Pegasus'' and the death of Cain. Then there was the deteriorating condition of Roslin. Perhaps the elections were put off because of that reason. All three of these reasons together could compel a postponement to holding elections.

As noted, there are significant gaps in time between '''Collaborators''' and '''Unfinished Business'''. There are only three episodes within that five month (150 day) "gap", and two of those episodes are just a day apart, [[Torn]] & [[A Measure of Salvation]]. It is the same situation between '''Pegasus/Resurrection ship I & II''' and '''Epiphanies'''.

Simply put, the 75 day gap is a non-issue. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 19:23, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:It'll take some time to digest your comments, Hunter, but I would tend to agree. Just because we, the viewers, expect to see things happen on-screen doesn't mean that things are ALWAYS in action for the characters. Gods, give 'em a chance to breathe. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:35, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:I'm sorry, this is just wrong. The most logical way to explain away the discontinuity is to suppose that two months suddenly pass between the Cally scenes in the teaser of "Flight of the Phoenix" and the Roslin scenes. If this didn't leave behind any contradictions, it would be a (marginally) acceptable explanation, but it doesn't even offer that advantange. Let be briefly summarize the unresolved problems that the discontinuity leaves behind:
:*Elections delayed by two months (consistantly predicted to be around month 7 in season 1, actually depicted around month 9)
:*In ''Pegasus'', when Sharon is raped, she is not visibly pregnant (consistant with the first half of the season). In "Resurrection Ship", we learn that it is six months post-holocaust and that she should be five months pregnant.
:Lastly, to simply suppose that Cottle was somehow "wrong" in the diagnosis he gave in "Flight of the Phoenix" is outright fanwankery. The show takes itself seriously and invites a close reading. If it can't stand up to that level of scrutiny, we shouldn't invent explanations in an attempt to let it off the hook. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:41, 27 December 2006 (CST)
:: I believe that with a little thought these problems are not so big. As to the election and the diagnosis, I don't think it is that big and issue. As I said, given the the reasons I gave, the near civil war the influx of new people, I don't think it is that so out ragious that the election was postponed for two months. As for Doctor Cottle's diagnosis of Roslin's cancer, I didn't say that Cottle was so much wrong as that Roslin beat the odds a little. Again, this sort of thing happens in real life. It is no reflection on Dr. Cottle's competancy that Roslin got a bonus one or two months to live. It does happen in real life. It happens the other way too and you kick sooner than the doctor thought you would. I just don't think it is that big an issue that she didn't drop dead on schedule.

::Now I admit that Athena's pregnancy is a hurdle, but even that has a viable explainaton:

::Admiral Cain said it was six months since the Apocalypse. That is 180 days. Of course since humans round off very often the estimated 175 days in which the events of '''Resurrection Ship Parts I and II''' happen is very reasonable match.

::Sharon and Helo made love on the 24th day. Let's say they conceived Hera the very first time they had That would mean by '''Resurrection Ship Part I''' The future Athena was around 156 days (180-24 days) or five months and about five days pregnant Let's for laughs and to make the math easier say she was five months and a week pregnant or 21 weeks. It is true that during '''Pegasus''' Athena did not appear pregnant, however I think in real life there have been cases of pregnancies that gave very little outward sign of itself until surprisingly late in the gestation period. However, I do agree that this is unlikely.

::If you don't like that explanation, there is always the very relevant that this is a mixed Cylon Human child, something that doesn't exist in the real world of course. And we have seen two in show ways that Sharon Agathon's pregnancy and her child are different. One was before Hera was born. Sharon somehow knew it was a girl in [[Home, Part II]]. She '''''knew''''', she did not feel or guess. The other more telling and obvious was post pregnancy. That is, from a human perspective, Hera's lack of development. Hera is about two years old now as of [[The Eye of Jupiter]], but appears to be just one year of age. Working backwards, within a few minutes after most of the humans left New Caprica on the Second Exodus (something like five and a half months ago in BSG time as of '''The Eye of Jupiter'''), when Baltar found her in the arms of her dead foster mother Maya she appeared to be only around six to eight months old. Before that in Roslin's school in '''Lay Down Your Burdens Part II''' after the Colonials had been on New Caprica for a year Hera still seemed to be about the size of a baby only a month or so old; so there is plenty evidence of Cylon/Human "under development" relative to fully human babies. Since they grow post-natally slower than a human child, it stands to reason that they develop slower pre-natally as well, hence Athena's flat appearing stomach in '''Pegasus''' while she was doing crunches at 21 weeks.

::This is not a mere fanwank. I don't think this was accident. I am using what was presented in the episodes. I don't think it would be too difficult to have an casting call for a two year old Eurasian female baby; and before that a year and five month old at the time of the Second Exodus and before that a year old baby at the time of the Cylon invasion. I think RDM is deliberately showing us that Cylon/Human babies develop slower.

::Therefore, while judging strictly within the realm of human Obstetrics Athena's lack of any visible signs of pregnancy in '''Pegasus''' is strange (most if not all human woman begin to "show" at the beginning of the second trimester), this is a special case that doesn't exist in reality of course; a human/Cylon hybrid, and it goes without saying that the "rules" will be different.

::Oh I almost forgot: Athena wasn't raped, but almost raped, at least that is how it was originally broadcasted. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:32, 27 December 2006 (CST)

:While I think that the issue isn't nearly as big as its made out to be, it's nonetheless there. Sure, the missing time can be accounted for, but contradictions are is still there. Sharon's pregnancy progression is a more practical error, but the election and Roslin's diagnosis could have been adressed in dialogue.
::Could had been address in dialogue, but there was no real need. As to Athena's prenancy, see my response to Peter Farago. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:32, 27 December 2006 (CST)
:Personally, it doesn't affect my ejoyment of the show, but when I think about it, it's a bit weird that stuff like this happens --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:52, 27 December 2006 (CST)
::I don't think it is weird at all. There is nothing to contradict. Even Athena's quirky pregnancy has a very viable explaination given what we have seen. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:32, 27 December 2006 (CST)
: As Peter and Serenity said, the gap is there and it's not something that can be easily dismissed, at least after the fact. Does it affect the enjoyment factor? Probably not for most, but it's important to note anyway. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:00, 27 December 2006 (CST)
::To note maybe, but not so important, except that in the case of Hera, it is an insight on Cylon/Human admixture. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:32, 27 December 2006 (CST)

:::Hunter, just because you ''can'' fanwank doesn't mean you should. If you want to indulge the showrunner's sloppiness by inventing ridiculous explanations, you can feel free to do so privately, but do not attempt to propagate it as fact, or use it to supplant the meaningful analysis we have painstakingly assembled here. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:49, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::First of all, point to any time in my arguments that I present my explanations as fact. Just once. What I did was use plausible in show and real life arguments as to what could had happened and why these discontinuities are not as serious as they are made out to be or even necessarily discontinuities, especially when it comes to Roslin's dire diagnosis and the postponements of the elections. As to the issue of the pregnancy, I used a real life argument but I used mostly in show explanations. Do you deny the visual record of Hera's constant under development? It has been consistent hasn't it? Many people have complained about it. I just point out that it has been too consistent to be chalked up to sloppiness or laziness on the part of the production staff and it is deliberate on their part for a reason. I merely extended that phenomena pre-nataly as well as post-nataly. Anyway, it seems that some don't want to discuss the merits of my arguments. RDM has said that he will not explain every thing explicitly and will rely on the intelligence of the audience to deduce things. I just made the attempt. And here I thought this was a discussion board. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 10:07, 28 December 2006 (CST)

:::::The article's name alone gives us the answer, it seems. If our count, ''derived by official sources'', contradicts what was shown in "Flight" and "Pegasus" (another official source) AND if no official source has retconned or admitted the error, we as contributors cannot guess or estimate or synthesize any plausible speculation. Any attempt is fanwanking since we would be generating content. So, do we note the discrepancy and leave it alone (given that later episodes resume a meaningful timeline)? I recommend we do. Essentially, "it's just a TV show" and we should really relax about it. I do recommend that we clarify the discrepancy, without comment or explanation. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:34, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::::Once again (and I don't know why everyone keeps misunderstanding), I didn't put forth my arguments as fact, but as possible explanation for the apparent discrepancies. Believe me, I know the purpose and rules of a Wikipage. I have been a contributor to Wikipedia for a bit over a year now, so I am very familiar with the rules and concept of sources. I have never proposed that my theories where what in fact happened. I don't have anything to back that up via official source. Never claimed they were. I put them forth here merely as theories as to '''why''' these so-called discontinuities happened, not as a hard fact. If you look all my contributions to this article they have been strictly derived from facts in the show, most notably the my mathematical derivation of the five month elapsed time between '''Collaborators''' and '''Unfinished Business'''. I would never place in the body of an article (in this case about discontinuities) an explanation that was not from an official source. For example I know that Roslin's extended life was not explained on the show but I gave a plausible reason for it for example. However, would I put it in the article? No. It is speculation; speculation based on real life, but speculation none the less. The same with Athena's lack of visible manifestation of her pregnancy just before the attempted rape and I backward extrapolated it to the apparent lag in development of Hera. I aired my explanations not to argue to have them included in the article, but as an explanation as to '''''why''''' they may have happened and that it was no big deal anyway. After all, some here have written that the apparent discontinuities were the result of sloppiness on the part of the writers and producers. I say that may not be the case and I gave scenarios as to why they are probably aren't and/or if they are they are not that important in at least two of them. That is all.
::::::I thought that was part of the purpose of the Discussion/Talk page, not only to list the apparent discontinuities but why they exist or even if they are and to show why or why not. That was my only intent; to explain and hopefully clarify, not to have my unsourced pet theories insinuated into the article. That was the original intent of this section "The 75 day gap: not important." [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 21:57, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::Suggestion: Logistics issues held elections off for a couple months (It is necessary for candidates to have some amount of time to campaign, or at least declare candidacy.) Roslin's cancer went into remission, this is actually common enough to be plausible, and in one case happened so unexpectedly to a friend of mine that he went from expecting to die to having several years left. Unfortunately, it came back 18 months later.

Talk:The Eye of Jupiter/Archive3

2007-01-06T19:36:30Z

PhoenixFlight: /* More Nested Analysis */

I wonder if it has to do with that big red spot... *rollseyes* --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:48, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm more reminded of that Writer's Podcast thing, you know when they're saying "How many more times are we going to find an artifact like the Arrow of Apollo and have to search for them all? That feels like going back to the well too many times, I mean what are we going to say, "Athena has 10 sacred toenail clipping scattered across space, you have to find them all...?" :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:49, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:i'm thinking along the lines of some jewelry. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:57, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

::It sounds like a good plotline actually. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:05, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Merv - you just made me spill forth mein coca cola whilst reading the section about the sacred toenail clippings - thats too much for 3am on a sunday morning! Still, plot looks good, just wish Season 3 would hurry up and AIR dammit! :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 21:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
::::No, really, they make a joke about "Athena's toenail clippings" in that writer's podcast thing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:12, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I have a few possible meanings for 'eye of Jupiter' --[[User:starryniteynite|starryniteynite]]

1) Relatively obscure name for NGC 3242, a planetary nebula (A ring of illuminated gas expanding out from a sun-like star that's exhausted its fuel, and has lost its outer layers) a few thousand light years from Earth. Most astronomers call this 'the Ghost of Jupiter' instead, though some Hubble images have used this name. Its not a very unique PN (tho it has some gas streamers we can't quite explain), but it could be used as a navigational marker like M8 (the lagoon nebula). It is a very pretty nebula :)

2) "Eye of Jupiter" was the Greek/Roman name for the sun, which lead to today's 'all seeing eye' symbol of the free masons and on the pyramid in US currency

3)Adama=Zeus=Jupiter...yes, they tend to use Greek vs. Roman names, but the titles are not always consistent with this convention, and we have also seen evidence for non Greek mythological names (Isis, for example). The rest of it could be wordplay too...'eye' might refer to someone acting as Adama's eyes, rather than his eyes literally (just as 'The captain's hand refereed to Lee acting as Gardner's XO, or his hand, rather than some captain's literal hand)

4)A reference to Jupiter's big red spot, a huge hurricane-like storm on the planet's surface. Just like the "bastille Day" title, this could reference something in the episode, but not directly...they might travel through a similar storm. This has actually been done before in the miniseries, when Galactica travels into the storm at Ragnar

5) The tried and true, ancient object meaning...just like the arrow of Apollo directly references a character, but has no link to the character himself, this could just be a pretty piece of bling..

Personally, I would love #1, but only because it'd make me 2/2 for BSG objects in my thesis and I'm a total, unabashed geek. I think its probably #2, however, and they find some sort of navigational means of finding Earth (like a picture of Earth w/ distances& directions to three pulsars or very unique objects

== Duelling Sharons ==

So did anyone else get a sense of animosity/jealousy between the two Sharons? While it seems that Boomer has accepted her place amongst the Cylons and no longer considers herself a part of the humans, it also seems that she's a bit jealous of Athena's "taking her place", if you could call it that. Likewise, it also seemed that aside from her duties as a Colonial officer, Athena's refusal to let Boomer in with Adama was also somewhat out of personal distrust, ironically the same distrust of the Cylons that her fellow Colonial colleagues have.

Also, while Boomer told Athena about Hera's condition out of possible concern of the child (possible strain of humanity left in her? Cylon imperative? Or something else?), seems to me that Boomer enjoyed bursting her "sister"'s bubble on that. Talk about sibling rivalry there.

It'll be interesting to see if there will be any further Sharon vs. Sharon confrontations in the series.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 23:55, 15 December 2006 (CST)

:It was a very, very interesting dynamic. In any other show, we would have had a knock-down dragout "catfight." You hit the nail on the head. This episode was prime stuff. And, we on the wiki should be commended: our ''Galactica'' nuke count is right on the money! (Either that, or the show is using ''us'' as a source! :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:20, 16 December 2006 (CST)

::Does that mean we can finally change the "Class-D Nuclear Warhead" to something completely different, since their nukes ''aren't'' Class-D? :P --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:42, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Image==
Let's find an image that actually occurs in this episode. Maybe the wide shot of Tyrol in the temple? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Heh which one? to me it seems the Chief was a bit wide in ALL shots ; how could he gain weight while the fleet was starving? the chief definitely deserves the Lee Adama Fat-Ass trophy --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 03:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:Maybe it was Chief, and not Dr. Cottle, that got all of Kat's energy bars from the last ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:25, 16 December 2006 (CST)

So... is someone with the means actually going to replace the image with one relevant to this episode? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 21:12, 20 December 2006 (CST)

:Silly joking aside, I agree that the picture should be replaced. I'd do it, but I don't have a good screencap --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:34, 23 December 2006 (CST)

:I happen to have the episode, so, it's done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:57, 23 December 2006 (CST)

::Well, I still see a thumbnail of the old image here and there (e.g. on the main page or on Mercifull's user page). -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:09, 27 December 2006 (CST)

:::You may need to purge your browser's image cache to see the new image. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:12, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::I've just purged my Maxthon's image cache a moment ago and I still see an old thumbnail. Tried that also with Opera and Firefox -- all the same. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 04:27, 28 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Starbuck survive?==
Horray for the carelessness of adverts! Within ten minutes we knew the answer to that one. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Aside from that, it's going to continue the cycle of Soap Opera unease there, if Dee's the one sent to go get Starbuck back. Can't wait to see the uncomfortable stares on that one, especially if (as I suspect) Dee set up Starbuck to be the "eye in the sky" '''hoping''' the Cylons would shoot her down.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Who else was supposed to fly the mission? Looks like Lee and Kara are the only two qualified pilots on the ground and Lee is needed in overall command. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:34, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Too good to be true==
When we Baltar's voice over ''Galactica'''s speaker, the closed caption actually identifies him as "Cylon over speaker". I know that's not really meant to be taken as anything, but with all the speculation, it seems like a shining goof, or maybe even someone taking a good piss out of the [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|whole thing]]. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Nuking the Planet==

Does anyone else think that the nuclear missiles have the ability to be detonated remotely, before they reach their target? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:44, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Not to mention abort code transmissions, etc. Makes you wonder if the missiles were set for "one shot, one kill" mode, where they could not be recalled.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Or perhaps the missiles can be aborted, until they reach a critical flight time. Could make for a ''very'' tense moment or two. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:Is it just me or didn't he actually give the order to fire. He said "release of nuclear weapons is now authorized". That might sound strange, but I took that to be a preliminary order to firing. For example that now even Tigh would be able to launch them on his say --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:03, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::No, you're correct on that; essentially all they were doing was opening the "barn doors". I was discussing the hypotheticals of the missiles, if they should be launched in the next ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:33, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:::Aye, we're just jumping the gun a little, and discussing possibles ways out of it, if Adama does indeed decide to launch :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 02:17, 21 December 2006 (CST)

::::Am I the only one who thinks he might be targeting the nukes for the Raiders on their way to the surface? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:53, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:::::Then why this-
:::::'''Adama''':Load target package three-bravo. Set ground zero for the underground structure.
::::: -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:19, 29 December 2006 (CST)

:::::: Damn, I missed that. Consider me stumped, then. -[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:17, 30 December 2006 (CST)

I watched the episode for the first time last night. I had this theory after the show ended...If the star of this system is going to go supernova, as Gaeta has described,

("Gaeta: Could be tomorrow. Could be next year. There's no way of knowing for sure, sir. When it does happen, the only warning that we're likely to get is a fast helium flash, at which point we'll have to jump out of here before it obliterates the entire planetary system. Sir, I am not one to look for religious signs. But I can't get my head around these odds. That human and Cylon both converge on this planet at this exact moment just as the star's about to go supernova…")

there most likely is an abundance of solar phenomena being emitted from the sun, maybe an increase of solar flares even. Solar flares have the "energy equivalent to a billion megatons, traveling normally at about 1 million km per hour"..."They produce electromagnetic radiation across the electromagnetic spectrum at all wavelengths from long-wave radio to the shortest wavelength gamma rays:(solar flare wiki ref.) I know that Solar Flares can disrupt electronics on and orbiting earth, and I'm sure Galactica's systems are somewhat protected from bursts of electromagnetic energy...but somehow I had the idea that the nukes are probably not as well insulated. Since there is so much solar activity in the region, I had the idea that maybe something like a flare (not the helium flash Gaeta talked about) would happen just as the nukes were launched..causing them to blow in the upper atmosphere directly over the temple. This would allow for quite a light show, and perhaps could allow that light shaft in the Temple of Five to be intensified. On the BaseStar with Baltar and Three, the Hybrid mentions something about "the five lights of the apocalypse" here:

"Hybrid: ...I don't care if it rains or freezes, as long as… the five lights of the apocalypse rising... sins revealed only to those who enter the temple, only to the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, end of line. Until next time … the eye, the eye, the eye, look into the eye to know thyself."

Maybe this is the way the temple is activated, maybe this is how the eye of Jupiter (Jupiter/Zeus/Adama's nukes) appears over the temple and activates the key...and Hey, maybe the solar flare would take care of the Heavy Rader flight systems too...Who knows, just an idea I had wished to share.

"Chief: And the heavens opened up, and they saw the Eye. But where is that frakking Eye?"

--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:08, 3 January 2007 (CST)

:Holy crap that's a good theory. Wow. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 12:06, 3 January 2007 (CST)
:Nice theory indeed. Maybe the five lights of the apocalypse are actually five nukes? Nukes would qualify as lights of apocalypse, but then so would a supernova. Also, I revisited the Hybrid's prophecy: ("Find the hand that lies in the shadow of the light, in the eye of the husband of the eye of the cow"). The light is most likely the bright star cluster (although it could also be the nukes, the supernova or the helium flash), but "in the shadow" hasn't really been explained properly. Now I just realized that since the temple is an underground structure, it would be in the shadow all the time. Might be something, might not be something, we'll see. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 13:47, 3 January 2007 (CST)

== WTF moment ==

I was on the [[Karl Agathon]] page, updating it for this ep's news, when I came across [[:Image:Valley_of_Darkness-Starbuck_Helo.jpg|this old picture]]. Considering how Kara's painting looks and that she's religious (though not indoctrinated in any sort of clerical form, unlike Chief Tyrol's parentage), does anyone think that (in hindsight), this may have been a hint to the Eye itself?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:37, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: It actually makes a lot of sense... Taking Zeus to mean Admiral Adama, and that Kara Thrace is the go-to pilot for reconnaissance missions, AND the paintings on the walls, we have a plausible theory in the works! —The preceding '''unsigned''' comment was added by {{User|Alcibiades}}.
: Are you kidding me?! They set this episode up a year ago! --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: I find it pretty hard to believe too, but that painting ''really really really'' looks like the art in the temple. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 20:41, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Maybe they though it would be a nice idea to take that painting, put it in the Temple more than a season later, and see if we notice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::It's a painting in her room and part of the column in the temple. :) --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:31, 19 December 2006 (CST)
: So Starbuck is an artist. She paints The Eye of Jupiter. Is it a known symbol or is this the first time anyone else has seen it? If it's not well-known, what does that say about Starbuck? Doesn't it make her prescient? Maybe her true calling is as an oracle. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:29, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::I'm with Catrope here. If I'm remembering my "Valley Of Darkness" podcast correctly, Tahmoh and Katee painted the apartment themselves, without any direction from Ron or the rest of the show crew. It's quite possible that someone noticed that particular pattern and decided to make it significant. And, hey, maybe she ''is'' an Oracle who just hasn't realized that she has the gift. Give the girl some chamalla and see what she can do. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Starbuck found a spiritual calling to fill the enormous gaps in her soul that she tries to fill with sex, booze, speed, duty, and violence. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:33, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:A friend of mine told me he though the painting and the decoration looked a lot like a star or an explosion, and then brought up the word "supernova". Could this picture be some sort of reference to the star going supernova? (I must admit I'm contradicting myself here, because I said earlier I thought the similarity to be some sort of an inside joke. Of course it's possible that Sackhoff&Penikett accidentally painted something that looked like an explosion, and that's why the writers chose that particular painting.) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:36, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== 18 Casualties & Relevance to "The Passage" ==

If 18 people were lost from '''The Passage''' episode, that means that 17 (at most) were aboard those two lost civilian ships, right? I'm only bringing this up to clarify what transpired — from that, and what we saw, the Raptors would pair up with a civilian ship, and that ship's passenger complement would be transferred onto ''Galactica'' (more heavily shielded, combat FTL drive) for the ferry run through the cluster. The civilian ship would then be crewed by an absolute bare minimum number of crewers. Then, when the group reached the other side of the cluster, the passengers would be transported back to their ships (if they survived the passage), the ships would remain at "Algae-planet", and ''Galactica'' would turn around and go back to the original side to repeat the cycle over again for a new group of civilian ships?

Am I reading/viewing this right? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:53, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:The ships were manned by skeleton crews. That was even mentioned in "The Passage" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:01, 16 December 2006 (CST)

: Don't forget that 14 days have transpired. there could have been more births in the fleet. I just came up with the difference from the two episodes--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

== Humanoid Cylons recognize each other on sight ==

While back on New Craprica, Number 3 knew right away that it was Sharon Agathon. Of course, who else would be trying to remove the ship's launch keys?

This episode, we see that Athena knew on sight that this Number Eight was Boomer. Interesting.

Can Cylons tell on sight which of the copies they are? It's already established that the bulletheads can't.

Note in last weeks episode, Baltar was able to pick The D'anna number three out of the hallway on sight, even though there is an identically dressed number three in the same hallway. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 16:50, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Those two instances do prove that they do recognize one another, which was hinted at in the "[[Cylon Agent]]" page. I guess now it's more than a hint. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:54, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Names of marines==
Has anyone heard (or seen in close captions) the names of the marines that were with Starbuck and Dualla? I know one of them is [[Fischer]], but the other three? I heard something like: Criggs, Verek, Ditko. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:According to the caption, it's Griggs and Varrick; the spelling/pronouncation of the third lad is anyone else's guess. For some reason, the closed caption for this episode doesn't pick up everything for me. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:48, 17 December 2006 (CST)

::OK, we know that it's [[Fischer]], [[Griggs]], [[Varrick]], [[Henick]] and [[Ditko]]. Since after she says "Henick and Ditko" the camera centers first on the black guy and then on the bald guy, can we assume that the first one is Henick and the latter one is Ditko, and the one in a hat is Griggs? It's conjectural, but looks reasonable to me and it would be nice to add pictures to their articles. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 14:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Location of the Eye? ==

At the end of the episode, Tyrol says something about "the sky will open, and the eye will be revealed." Did that make anyone else think of the star going nova? -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 22:15, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Good idea, but is it possible that such a "blowup" could be predicted in the sacred scrolls thousands of years ago? -- [[User:SuperMMX|SuperMMX]] 01:15, 17 December 2006 (CST)
::Why not? A race of humans capable of traveling from Kobol to Earth probably knows at least as much about stellar evolution as the Colonials [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:39, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: The [[Sacred Scrolls]] have so far contained information about [[Laura Roslin]] being sick, [[Sharon Agathon]] helping them to find the [[Tomb of Athena]], and more... In addition to various prophetic dreams... Sure, they could have predicted it. -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 11:26, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:When Tyrol commented about blowing up the Temple, I already thought "What if the Eye is INSIDE the pillar and they have to blow it up to get it out?" But surely an explosion destroying the entire system would destroy the Eye as well? And if it didn't, the Eye would not be easy to find between the debris of an entire planet. But blowing up a pillar doesn't exactly qualify as "the sky will open"... Maybe it refers to blowing up the roof or something like that... --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:04, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: Note the shaft of light streaming across the central pillar in the final scenes of the episode. Perhaps something will be revealed when it becomes centered upon the prominent symbol seen there. --[[User:Spidey3|Spidey3]] 12:29, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::That was the way my mind was working. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:39, 18 December 2006 (CST)
I believe that the Sky Opening Up will be the explosion of the nuclear weaponry activating or destroying something which will then reveal the Eye. --[[User:Teal Thanatos|Teal Thanatos]]

== Boomer in the brig? ==

Did Boomer get thrown in the galactica brig once Athena pointed her out? Was she allowed to return to the Basestars? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:49, 17 December 2006 (CST)

I doubt it because they probably would have it done right there rather than holding her outside first. I'm sure they let her leave with the others and advised her not to let the door hit on the arse on the way out. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:46, 17 December 2006 (CST)

:Besides, the least thing they need on ''Galactica'' right now would be Boomer to break out of the brig, throw on a uniform and have a "Guess the Sharon" contest. Aside from that, I expect that kind of trite plotwork I just mentioned from lesser sci-fi series, not this one.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Summary ==

We really need a longer summary up there, the only point it currently mentions is kind of random -_- --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:58, 17 December 2006 (CST)

== D'anna's search for the five vs. the Temple of Five ==

I haven't seen much discussion on the connection between "the five" Cylons and the Temple of the Five. Since the Temple was built by the 13th tribe, a connection doesn't seem likely in a conventional linear timeline; but like the painting in Starbuck's apartment, it's hard to dismiss as a mere coincidence.

Such a connection does, however, clear up some verisimilitude issues for me – namely, the rate at which the Cylon's biological technology advanced in relation to both Cylon and Colonial conventional technology.

In less than 40 years' time, the Cylons were able to develop the Cylon Agents – and in such a way that made indiscernable from humans – and all of the ressurection technology that went with it. Meanwhile, their conventional, mechanical technology hasn't made nearly the same leaps. And Colonial technology hasn't advanced much at all. Pegasus was a much more formidable vessel than Galactica, but only in terms of size and firepower. Technologically speaking, they weren't that dissimilar. Everyone's still using nuclear missles as their most advanced form of weaponry.

Clearly, the Cylons have had a little help. Now, with dual references to a group of five that must not be named, we're starting to get an idea of from where that help may have come.

I'm not sure how that jibes with the Cylon's monotheistic religion (also established within those 40 years), versus the Colonies' polytheism, but I'm sure Mr.Moore has it worked out.

How great it is to have a show with a fleshed out story line already established, as opposed to the "make it up as we go" approach to shows like Star Trek (all incarnations), X-Files and Lost over our last 40 years. {{unsigned|Tylonius}}

:To ''Battlestar's'' credit, it did take a while to flesh out the story from a viewer's perspective, but what we know is quite intriguing. Their God and the Colonial gods may be one and the same, and may change how the Cylons treat the Colonials and vice versa. I don't think the five faces will be all shown, but we might see one. And yes, it is good to enjoy a show that makes a greater effort to maintain a consistent storyline. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:01, 18 December 2006 (CST)

::Time may not be an issue. Remember the Colonial Scriptures are full of prophecies, it wouldn't be too farfetched to assume that the Temple of Five could've been constructed for something before it happened, for the purpose of making it happen in due time.

::The Five could do whatever releated them to the temple much like Roslin is directly related to finding the tomb Athena, even though she lived thousands of years after everything else was set.

::This is all speculation, of course, but oh well....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 13:59, 19 December 2006 (CST)

:::The Final Five are directly connected to the Temple of Five: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/12/one_of_the_cent.html -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:16, 20 December 2006 (CST)

::::“Essentially the Temple of the Five is directly connected to the five Cylons we have not seen.” - RDM
::::I've been thinking about the ambiguous ''sins'' the [[Hybrid]] mentions, that appear to be in regards to the Five. My working theory is that the five priests who served "The One Who Cannot Be..." and the Five Cylon Models who served the Cylon God both committed the ''sin'' of Rebellion, and that both dieties they rebelled against are one and the same. I also (big leap now), think that Model One is among the Rebel Five. Being rebel ''Angels of God'' (as Virtual-Six refers to herself), that would make One the RDM-equivalent to TOS-Lucifer, now wouldn't it? Chief and first of the (from the cylon perspective) "fallen" angels (as opposed to speculation that One ''is'' the Cylon God) --[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 02:16, 23 December 2006 (CST)

== Human Nicknames ==
I cropped the following from the episode summary. Nothing against either point, just taking it off until somebody can figure out how to reconcile it into a single level deep bullet point (or points).
Cropped text:
*This is the first time the Cylons use "human" names on the basestar when not speaking to Baltar. D'Anna is named by Caprica-Six and another Number Three. Cavil's name is used by D'Anna.
**It is possible that these names are nicknames for the Cylons who've been amongst the humans (much like Caprica-Six), but it could also be the writers weaseling out of coming up with numbers for Cavil, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]] and [[Simon]]. In ''[[The Passage]]'', D'Anna even mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons".
Thanks. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Err how about:
*This episode marks the first time the Cylons use "human" names when not speaking to Baltar: Caprica-Six and another Three call D'Anna by her human name, who in turn uses Cavil's name. These could be nicknames for Cylons who've been living among humans (cf. [[Caprica-Six]]).
*Once again, the writers have dodged the issue of [[Cavil]]'s, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s and [[Simon]]'s numbers. In "[[Torn]]", Caprica-Six says "The ones you know as Leoben...", in "[[The Passage]]" Number Three mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons" and in this episode a Three simply calls one of the Cavils "Cavil".

Please correct my style here, I didn't know exactly how to quote/paraphrase things like "one of the Simons" etc. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:One bullet point might be enough if the second part is connected with a word like "thus". However we shouldn't use "weasling". It sounds too negative and critical where criticism isn't really needed. Maybe something like "dodging the issue" or "circumventing"? That means the same and isn't as POV.
:Btw: episode names aren't italicized, but put in quotation marks --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Edit first post, episode titles quoted instead of italicized, second bullet point reprashed and "weaseling" changed to "dodged".
I don't think joining the bullet points with "this" between them is going to make this any clearer. I also don't think it's necessary, as both points may be related but analyse different things (the remaining numbers vs. Cylon naming convention). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:28, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:I think the writers are working with established names for convenience. They may not want to create a number yet to not confuse some viewers or there may be a grand scheme of introducing more numbers later in the season or another season that involves the 5 unknown cylon models. They could be maintaining flexibility for themselves in this case. They also know that the people who care the most are us die-hard fans and they can drag us through the mud without giving us more info, but I don't think so with as generous and courteous as Ngarenn is on BW:OC.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 11:10, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::It wouldn't be too hard to introduce a new number though. We've heard plenty of statements like "We Threes think we can't take the risk.", ideal statements to introduce new numbers with. Of course these numbers aren't a big deal, but die-hard fans tend to like to know these details. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::True. Though the more detail the introduce, the more chances they have to get it wrong. Even with the few model numbers we have revealed RDM sometimes has [[Podcast:The_Passage#Act_1|difficulty keeping them straight]], confusing the Eight's (Sharons) with the Three's (D'annas). Either way, we'll be here, documenting. I sometimes wonder if we're (the die-hard detail documenters) aren't his worst nightmares (if we even bothers thinking about us). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:52, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::::I always thought it was a nice nod to buckaroo banzai where all the villains had the same first name. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 22:05, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::I believe it would make sense that there is a plan with rolling out the remaining agent numbers. For example, whether or not "One" is one of the missing Five has a great deal of bearing on the development of the cylon narrative, and so would be kept quiet until the episode revealing that fact. If He/She is one of the missing Five, but "Two" is not, then Two's identity ([[Cavil]], [[Leoben]], or [[Simon]]) also has a great deal of bearing on the narrative. Cavil has been shown using some leverage on Three. He's got my money for being Two. I think One is with the missing Five.--[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 22:58, 25 December 2006 (CST)

== Question on article ==

*When did [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] go over to the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons']] way of thinking? In this episode she clearly doesn't seem to think of herself as human anymore like she did in "[[Downloaded]]."
:I had assumed that by LDYB, II that the Cylons had gone over to Boomer and Caprica-Six's way of thinking, hence their (C-six and Boomer) sudden rise to power as well as the sudden Cylon cease-fire. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:24, 19 December 2006 (CST)

== Hera ==

I cannot believe that Adm. Adama has apparently no idea what happened to Hera. He was involved in this discussion in [[Downloaded]]. He should knew that Hera and her foster mother moved to [[New Caprica]]. I am very surprised that he became so angry after Roslin told him that she kept the child in her school. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 17:21, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:Adama and Roslin only agreed in "[[Downloaded]]" that Sharon cannot be allowesd raise the baby. Maybe he assumed/was told that Hera was killed by Cottle? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:34, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::That they concluded at the discussion that the child should be killed would fit with this episode events and Baltars look at the end of "Downloaded" when being chided by his internal six. However that option was mentioned onscreen and the entire tone of the conversation at that point makes it seem somewhat unlikely that this would been the final decision. Given that Baltar was never in on the adoption-plot (he apparently didn't know Hera was alive on New Caprica) and we now know Adama didn't know about it either the discussion outcome must have been either to kill the child or to postpone the decision (with Heras apparent death solving the problem). I'm quite willing to buy that Adama believed the child had died a natural death, given that complication in a hybrid between man and machine were to exspected. But I have troubles with Roslin doing it all behind Adamas back (why did she have to do that?) and Adama not making a decision whatever immediately (in Downloaded). [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 17:40, 21 December 2006 (CST)

== Recent Summary Reorganization Problems ==

I'm normally OK about reorganization of a summary, but the recent one handled by SgtPayne creates more work and confusion. Links previously added are missing, conventions once there are missing, and the narrative flow of the summary is extremely confusing. Normally we can break up events by location (events on Galactica, basestars, planets) because they are mostly separate events that don't directly connect, but this episode has both Cylons and Colonial events occurring in response to each other and in "real-time." I am ''this close'' to rolling back the summary and adding edits made afterwards to restore both narrative flow and conventions, but I wanted comments from others first. As an admin I would just roll it back because of all the wikilinking and convention breakage, but it's more than that. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:36, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:This is one that I might suggest we do "Act" reporting summary. So the events are intertwined. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:56, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::I believe that's exactly what the summary contained before that infamous edit: a chronological report of the events in this episode. Since everything and everyone interacts with eachother and is at the same place, that would be a logical choice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:03, 20 December 2006 (CST) (I hate edit conflicts)
:I haven't checked it for style and links, but I agree that the summary should be chronological. Splitting up the locations is fine if they aren't related. But as you said, here they are heavily interwined and dependent on each other --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:57, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:'''Revert.''' It looked better the way it was. The new split makes for a very confusing read. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)

I have reverted the article and restored relevant edits made after that reorganization. One persistant edit that I keep changing involves the "shaft of light" in the Temple as Tyrol is inspecting the symbology in the Temple. That "shaft" is Tyrol's flashlight beam. While that direct light ''might'' do something unexpected as it approaches the central target-shaped symbol, it's not coming from some mystic source within the structure. I've clarified this in the article. Contributors are always free to edit it, but its fairly clear, so analysis should be used to interpret what it might do. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:48, 20 December 2006 (CST)

In light of the recent reversion, I should drop my two cents in regarding the "reorganization". When I first read the article, I felt that it was too "narrative" rather than "summary", which is what the section suggests. The consolidation was an attempt to make the information as concise as possible. I also attempted to keep as many reference links as necessary. In regards to the location split, this was done in line with previous articles, which had definitive locations. My apologies if it confused readers, but it should be said that summaries are just that, and should not be play-by-play accounts of the episode. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 12:18, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:The location split you introduced is good practice when there are multiple storylines that do not interfere with eachother. A nice example of that is "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]". In most episodes this is the case (end s1-begin s2 even had 3 or 4 separate storylines), but in this particular episode the three locations affect eachother so greatly that the split you introduced makes for extemely confusing reading: a bullet point in the basestar story references events told in the Galactica part, and viceverse. (Let's not even start about the Algae Planet part). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:45, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::You bring up a good point. In trying to put it together, there were some areas where I wasn't sure where to put it. On the whole, I was looking to clean it up a bit. Trying to read it line-for-line blurs out after a while... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 14:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::I've broken up the summary into acts. It seems to solve both problems. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:24, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::aye. nice job. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:34, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::::I concur. It definitely cleans up the look of the page. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:55, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Missile Tubes==
Where exactly are they and shouldnt that be an article in "Galactica Areas" Snorkel378

:They are located on the dorsal side of the ship, slightly forward of the four guns ahead of the Colonial seal, and sit in two rows of six. And sure, why not create an article in that section? -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:12, 29 December 2006 (CST)

== More Nested Analysis ==
*The [[tylium]] planned for the mines could only come from their single Raptor. This supports the [[Substances in the Re-imagined Series#The Tylium Question|high energy yield of the fuel]] that, at the same time, would not sacrifice the Raptor's flight ability.
**It's also possible that the tylium used was fuel stored at the camp to power its generators and/or refuel the Raptors and other ships involved in the harvest.
Please resolve these into either one or two single-level bullets, then re-add to the article. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:56, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:Done. I also updated the nuke count in this section. Admiral Adama orders launch tubes four through ten loaded, which means he's prepared seven nuclear warheads, not six. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:05, 22 December 2006 (CST)
::Nicely done. Thanks! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:51, 22 December 2006 (CST)

Major Point:
Note that Hera is the wife of Roman God Jupiter, the derivative of the Greek Zeus.

== Playing with the date? ==

In Kobol's Last Gleaming, they stated the ruins on Kobol were 2000 years old, "around the time of the exodus of the 13 tribes". When they found the beacon at the Lion's Head Nebula, they said it was 3000 years old, and now they're saying the Temple of Five is at least 4000 years old. Each time they give a new date a thousand years earlier, it seems to still coincide with the exodus date of the thirteenth tribe.

Am I the only one noticing this inconsistancy?

: My memory may be off, but I was under the impression that the 13th tribe left Kobol long before the other twelve. So... maybe the 13th tribe left 4k years ago, and the rest left 2k years later. Fanwankery? Spotty memory on my part? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 02:08, 25 December 2006 (CST)

::Both, sort of. The date in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I" refers to all thirteen tribes collectively. In "A Measure of Salvation" and "The Eye of Jupiter", they refer to the thirteenth tribe alone.
::'''Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I'''
:::Roslin: How old are the ruins?
:::Billy: We won't know for sure until they send a ground team, but the initial estimates have it on the order of approximately 2,000 years.
:::Elosha: That's around the time the thirteen tribes first left Kobol
::'''A Measure of Salvation'''
:::Adama: According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3,000 years ago. Right around the time that the Thirteenth Colony left Kobol.
::'''The Eye of Jupiter'''
:::Tyrol: Our initial radiocarbon dating suggests that the temple's at least 4,000 years old, which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe.
::--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:16, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:::Here's a thought. What if this isn't an accident? We've speculated already that humanity might have emigrated from Earth to Kobol before the thirteenth tribe returned. If the further away from Kobol we get, the older the artifacts we find, what does that tell us? That the thirteenth tribe was traveling not from Kobol to Earth, but from Earth to Kobol. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 06:03, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::Well, it may not be an accident, but the Colonials seem to think that the 13th tribe left Kobol for Earth. So why, upon finding that the artifacts get older as they journey further from Kobol/closer to Earth, would they conclude that the dating analysis confirms their scriptures? Put another way, if they dates say the tribe went from Earth to Kobol, but the scriptures say they went from Kobol to Earth, why aren't the Colonials confused? It's an interesting idea, nonetheless. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:29, 31 December 2006 (CST)

:::::Okay, it could also be that we're giving the Colonials too much credit in their dating. Elosha is a priest. Maybe her date of 2,000 is based on scripture, not fact. Also, the date of 4,000 could just mean that it predates the time that they knew the other 12 colonies left Kobol, thus it had to be built by the 13th tribe. The 13th tribe may have had outposts all throughout the galaxy while still calling Kobol home. Furthermore, since there are apparently 21,000 years of recorded history, maybe to the Colonials a few thousand years of inaccuracy in dating don't really make a difference. You could compare it to modern day humans who confuse the 15th and 16th centuries. Of course, now I'm fully in the territory of fanwanking/making up excuses. The seven months/nine months disparity with regard to the Colonial election was never even acknowledged, so there is a good possibility these inconsistent dates are just a product of sloppiness. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:40, 31 December 2006 (CST)

Nut we Don't know how long it took to get everyone from earth off of kobol because it would take awhile to get huge civilizations away from a planet.Snorkel378

== Dichotomy of Signs to Earth==

I find it rather interesting that the first real sign to Earth that they found was a satellite/probe (first found by the Cylons). This would represent the high tech sign-post to Earth. The second sign to Earth is this hidden "Temple of Five" which is plainly a spiritual sign. Anyone else thing this is very interesting? I wonder what was on the satellite. Too bad RDM didn't allow them to examine it. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 21:57, 26 December 2006 (CST)

==The G-4==
Hey how come in the summary it doesnt mention the G-4 about to go off right by Tyrol? Snorkel378

:*Unaware how events are escalating around and above him, Chief Tyrol illuminates the carved writings of the Temple with his flashlight and reads the inscriptions, trying to locate the actual resting place of the Eye. At one point, his flashlight's beam moves close to the target-shaped symbol in the center of the central spire.
:How about we make that:
:*Having strapped explosives to the central spire of the temple, Chief Tyrol...
:--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:17, 31 December 2006 (CST)

No I mean the activation light on 1 of the explosives is blinking which means it is going to detonate.The article does not mention that.
Snorkel378
:There is nothing to suggest that the blinking lights don't simply mean that it is armed rather than about to explode. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])

Yes but the music can easily tell u what is happening and it has a danger coming sound to it-Snorkel378
:Thats fanwanking. We have seen nothing to suggest that the explosives are about to detonate. All we know is that the explosives are armed and the flashing light could simply be to note that fact. You may very well be right but so far there has been no aired information to say that you are and until the next episode airs we wont know. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 03:24, 3 January 2007 (CST)

You are right I geuss im some crazy kid huh :) Snorkel378

Talk:Daniel Novacek/Archive 1

2006-12-30T20:16:58Z

PhoenixFlight:

== Standardization ==

This article seems to mix biography and character information, which isn't what we want to do, nor does it note the character bio source. Also, the photo should be of the character, not the actor (that's for the bio page). Anyone care to repair this? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:38, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
:Working on it. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 14:41, 11 October 2006 (CDT)

== Bulldog's name ==

Bulldog's name is Daniel, not Eugene. I changed the content, but can't change the title - could someone do it for me, please? Thx in advance. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 09:45, 11 November 2006 (CST)
: On a related subject, users can also request move permission at [[BW:MOVE]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 00:19, 12 November 2006 (CST)
:: And so I did. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 00:25, 12 November 2006 (CST)
:Damn, now I'm not sure anymore. In "Hero" everybody calls him "Daniel" or "Danny", on SciFi Channel site it's Daniel as well. On the other hand, all promo pictures say "Eugene" and there's also one particular scene in "Hero" with this name - look at the Doc Cottle's monitor when he checks Bulldog's DNA signature... -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 08:07, 19 November 2006 (CST)
::[[Image:Eugene.png]]
::I saw that scene as well. Perhaps Daniel is his middle name, which he prefers to use. But that might just be fanwankery to excuse a production gaffe. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:52, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:::It could just be that they changed their minds about the name during production but forgot to change the monitor. Sorta like the Paul/Saul Tigh thing. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 16:23, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Novacek ==

Novacek is eastern european name and means "New Man", "Beginner" or "Freshman". Slightly different version of this name "Novak" is most common name in here (Czech Republic). If somebody cares...--[[User:Deus|Deus]] 17:23, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:Interesting. That doesn't seem like it fits a veteran and a POW very well. Maybe he's been reborn after being held by the Cylons. He is sort of birthed out of the Raider, in a way. Too much of a stretch? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 22:24, 19 November 2006 (CST)

==Next Act==

Does anyone know if Novacek is going to stay with Galactica and resume flying. Even though he hates Adama, he's allegedly a very good pilot, and I would imagine the fleet needs the help. Anyone know where he went next?

Talk:A Measure of Salvation/Archive 1

2006-12-30T20:01:51Z

PhoenixFlight: /* Some Poor Writing */

==Picture?==
Is that picture from A Measure of Salvation? I don't remember Three and Six projecting themselves into a forest. The outfits they are wearing look like what they wore while torturing Baltar, so maybe it's from a deleted scene. Unless I've forgotten the scene for some reason, shouldn't we get a picture that actually came from the episode? -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Some Poor Writing ==

Attention to detail is what has set BSG apart from so many other science-fiction shows - including Mr. Moore's Star Trek franchises. So I was very disappointed last night to see the sloppy errors piling up deep. I'd have to see the epsiode again to list them all, but mainly them problems concerned the virus.

The scene where potentially infected Galactica crew are "quarantined", together with Sharon, in a room with cold-storage plastic flaps was ridiculous.

It's preposterous to think that a Cylon would casually betray his race for the anti-viral drug. He has no assurance that he won't be double-crossed, and he certainly - even after torture - wouldn't spell out the danger the virus poses to the cylon fleet. The audience isn't stupid and neither should the Galctica crew be. Seeing Lee with a dim little lightbulb over his head was just insulting to us all.

Past episodes have clearly shown that Cylon resurrection occurs over significant distances, (greater than FTL jumps), and that calls into question the fundamental logistics of Adama's infection plan.

There would be no reason to jump Galactica itself, just sending one raptor with a cylon transponder and one infected cylon would have done the trick. (Nevermind the ease with which two cylon raiders almost instantly materialize into a whole cylon fleet with a resurrectionship conveniently in tow.)

The analysis on the episode summary page provides an excellent plot device allowing the raid to "succeed" thus justifying the major build-up of the two part story. In fact, it would have made a superb three part arc.

Hypothetical episode 3: Spend some realistic period of time finding a reasonably sized cylon fleet, infect them, virus begins spreading throughout area covered by the "local" resurrection ship. Cylons scramble to head off disease, Baltar gains points by developing Hera vaccine, cylons survive but with major "body-blow" giving Galactica and fleet some breathing room as they prepare to investigate the new lead to Earth.

Please don't get me wrong, I love this show, but sci-fi writing has always been done on the cheap and it make my eyes roll as I struggle to care about characters forced through non-sensical plot contortions. Please, Mr. Moore, DON'T LET BSG SINK TO THE SAME SAD FATE! I'm trusting that this was just a hiccup not a trend.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 13:08, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:In defense of the writers, I think you are wrong on two points:
:*Jumping Galactica makes sense. In [[Scar]] Cylon Raiders are engaging in skirmishes despite the absence of a resurrection ship. A Raptor is not a big enough threat to guarantee the presence of a resurrection ship. If one isn't in range by accident the Cylons would probably engage the Raptor without it and take a minor risk of permanently loosing a few raiders. And after [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]] the Cylons could be exspected to take a closer look to any unexpected Raptors with a Cylon transponder showing up. If they destroy it without a resurrection ship in range, the plans failed. Also Racetrack stated last episode that there is a shortage of Raptors in the fleet, noone is going to be eager to sacrifice one. Jumping Galactica ensures the Cylon require lots of forces, expect lot's of casualties and have a resurrection ship nearby, though I could have done without seeing it arrive on the battlefield, that's bad and inconsistent strategy, just to make sure the audience knows that it is in range.

:*There is probably a greater timespan between arrival of the patrol and that of the strikeforce then shown onscreen. Helo manipulates the oxygen-system after the jump, nevertheless the prisoners are already dead by the time the resurrection ship appears, indicating a least a few minutes have passed. The process can be seen in [[Flight of the Phoenix]] in the firing range scene (it's likely that Helo manipulated the same system).

:Two more plotholes I noticed: How do the Colonials know the Cylon supply lines? And given that they know Athena is immune because she's given birth to a hybrid child, they should wonder if there a more human-cylon hybrids. Even without knowing that Hera is still alive, if the massive Cylon effort to create hybrids resulted in creating at least one more hybrid the cylons would take a blow, but would not be exstinct. By the way it would be nice if we would hear something about these efforts. When Hera is shown for the first time in Cylon hands would be a good opportunity to close that chapter with a throwaway line that all these efforts were fruitless and stopped. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 11:24, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: That's an interesting question -- one that I had myself, actually. Even if the effort didn't destroy the Cylon race (and I think that goal is overly optimistic), the virus would have given a serious blow to the Cylons, which would only serve to give the survivors more breathing room -- not to metion the increase in general morale, which the survivors seriously need after the farce at New Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

I would have to agree the writing is poor. The series seems to be drifting from its roots and moving into the Hollywood PC political statement world. This season has already thrown in suicide bombing and implied it was acceptable, now there is a drift into making political statements about biological weapons (even though nuclear weapons have been freely used in the past.) It seems the writers are abandoning their science fiction roots and reaching to make their own personal social or political commentary. I do hope they get back to what I considered truly exceptional science fiction and stop these editorials.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 00:06, 12 November 2006 (CST)

Followup: According to and article on the Gateworld site ([http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/10/season_three_ratings_slip_from_premiere.shtml]) the ratings have been slipping. As much as I truly love this show, I know my wife and I were both rather disgusted with the previous inclusion of the suicide bombers and now the “loss of humanity” references associated with the potential use of biological weapons. I have also heard complaints from two of our friends. I’m concerned that if this direction is continued it will not only ruin the show, it will also drive away viewers resulting in cancelation. As a long time science fiction fan (I even remember watching the original showings of Lost in Space and the first Star Trek) this has been my all time favorite show up until now. I would hate to see it have an early demise. As I mentioned above, I hope the writers can return to science fiction and entertainment.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 16:13, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: Ratings have been slipping for ''SG-1'' and ''Atlantis'' as well; neither have the strong allegories to today's world, or the world of yesteryear for that matter. So I don't fully buy that there's a direct correlation between the creative direction BSG is going and the loss in viewership. Actually, one could probably argue (more successfully in my informed opinion) that the loss of ratings has more to do with Sci-Fi's scheduling decisions of breaking up the "Three Amigos" (''Stargate SG-1'', ''Stargate Atlantis'' and ''Battlestar Galactica''). As for the "loss of humanity" and suicide bombing themes, these have existed since the miniseries (Number Five's suicide bombing attempt in "[[Litmus]]" and Adama's speech in the miniseries and platitudes since then). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::: In my very informed opinion, I would have to disagree on several points. While time slots and lineup can affect ratings, this usually is reflected in those of the shows with the weaker individual draw. Galactica is a cornerstone show which should draw up the ratings for those around it rather than have such a slump from a lineup change.

::: As for the previous Friday lineup, SG-1 ratings have steadily declined since the departure of Richard Dean Anderson. His departure also seemed to coincide with decline in the quality of the writing, though I’m not convinced the two were related rather than just coincidental. I have always believed the SG Atlantis was the weak link in that lineup and was carried by its position between SG-1 and BSG. As mentioned in the article I referenced above, Dr. Who, which leads into BSG, has had poor ratings this season. I believe the replacement of the very likable actor playing the title role, though consistent with the original BBC series, was a detriment to this series. In addition, this season’s writing has seemed less creative and entertaining. I greatly enjoyed their first season, but have found the current one to be rather dull and uninteresting. This certainly doesn’t help with the Galactica ratings, but I don’t believe it is the major factor in the decline.

::: The introduction of controversial topics into plot lines is often risky, particularly with science fiction which is typically considered pure escapism, even when it has a dark element like BSG (i.e.: The potential extermination of the human race and the continued threat from the Cylon.) Generally, Sci-Fi fans want to escape the real world and be entertained, not lectured on the writers’ political or social views of modern events. While any controversial topic is a risk, the introduction of those that are currently so polarizing is almost a guarantee of distancing a significant portion of your fan base.

::: You associated the bombing executed by a Cylon against those carried out by human suicide bombers. The two aren’t even remotely comparable. The first was not executed by a human, was not condoned by the humans, and was executed by an individual who (as already had been established) would be reborn (“downloaded”) into a new body, but as the same individual. The later was not only condoned by members of the upper human leadership, it was presented as a reasonable and acceptable approach in a given situation – a strong statement considering current world events. (As someone who’s nephew’s squad was attacked by the first suicide bomber in the gulf war, killing many of his squad just a few yards in front of him, I will freely admit to strong personal feelings in this matter. None the less, such controversial plot elements are invariably going to strongly offend a significant number of viewers.) The inference that the humans must limit their use of weapons against an enemy bent on the genocide of humanity is another PC component. Biological weapons as a plot element would have been better completely left out rather than used as a mechanism for additional political commentary. Remember, people watch for entertainment, not a reminder of current events or a thinly disguised lecture from Hollywood writers on their political and social opinions.

::: It is also rather telling that the ratings dropped rather significantly after the season 3 premiere (where suicide bombings by humans were introduced and condoned.) I’ll be interested in seeing how the ratings are affected after this latest one sided (read: “PC”) foray into contemporary controversial issues.

::: --[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 20:40, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::::I doubt that the suicide bombings in Occupation and Precipice were "condoned" by the show. Roslin didn't like them. Tigh, who planned them, thought they were bad. Even Baltar (who's been developing a conscience this season, thank the Gods) didn't like them. The first was a waste of life and counterproductive, causing a massive Cylon freakout that would have killed off Roslin, Zarek, Cally and a bunch of other people if the resistance hadn't saved them in the last minute. The second took down the power grid, which was more helpful, but it should be noted that in this case the bomber didn't kill any civilians, just herself and some Cylons. Tigh is still suffering because of the choices he made on New Caprica, and it doesn't look like he's coming out of those moral woods anytime soon.

::::Furthermore, I don't think the show has condemned the use of the Cylon virus, either. Roslin was all about it, after all, and I don't think there's anything less PC than a schoolteacher with a Messiah complex jonesing for some genocide. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 22:33, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:::: The use of nuclear weapons are logical in a space setting where great distances are involved and ships are heavily armoured. I would suspect, though, that a Presidential order would have been required to use nukes on the surface of a populated planet. The use of bio-weapons would probably have similiar restrictions because of their nature. I disagree that this show was PC. The weapon that the humans stumbled upon had a unique ability to wipe out the entire race of cyclons. To use it does carry far more ethical problems than simply using a nuke on a basestar. To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 09:39, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:::::''To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet''--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]]

:::::I think that's a poor analogy, since the Japanese were not a threat to kill every American person on the planet, which is what the Cylons are a threat to do (notwithstanding Helo's odious observation that "they tried to live with us on New Caprica"). The humans and Cylons are in a war of absolute total commitment, and it's difficult to imagine how the war can end until one side or the other ceases to exist. In that scenario, you probably have to choose the other side to be the one that ceases to exist.

:::::On the other hand, one might argue that the numbers involved are so staggering that, even to a human, the lives of billions of Cylons must be valued over the lives of forty-some thousand humans. (I'm making a wild guess that the Cylon population is comparable to the pre-war human population of the 12 colonies.) This argument of course assumes that Cylons are "alive" in the same sense as people and are not merely machines. It also ignores the question of whether there is an Earth with a population of billions of humans who need the colonial fleet to survive and give them a heads-up if ''they'' are to have a fighting chance to survive a Cylon attack.

:::::[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 16:04, 25 November 2006 (CST)

:::I think the show has been attacking issues that are important in our modern world since the beginning. Basic issues like balance of power, whether civilian government should stay in power during a massive crisis and war, religion in general, how to treat thouse different from yourselves (the show has been very ambivalent about killing Cylons, even though they are "just robots"), Baltar's initial refusal to believe in the gods or a god. It has even tackled thitngs like terrorism as a means to an end (Zarek was introduced at the beginning of the first season), abortion, infanticide, torture, treatment of prisoners. In all, it has been very current and politically involved since the beginning. However, with the first 4 episodes of season 3, it took a decidedly controversial and risky turn by depicting our favorite valiant and noble heros under brutal occupation. The writers have guts, and their ratings may have suffered, but they are doing the same thing they've been doing since the beginning of the show. It's just now a lot of poeple who watch TV don't agree with the particular direction the show took. However, even then, it left the viewer to choose for him or herself what to think, it was again ambivalent, which may be what makes it the best show on TV. No, the show will not supply you with easy answers and moral certitude to very important current questions. But that's a good thing, not a bad thing. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 15:49, 13 November 2006 (EST)

::::I have to agree that it's been dealing with controversial issues from the start. One thing I've learned about BsG from watching it is that every time you think there's a line they won't cross, they seem to cross it. I think Yaneh has it right. Now, with them back in space, I do think it might turn more towards classic sci-fi, but I do agree this is not an unprecedented pattern. As for the writing on this particular episode, I think there were some odd references or slip-ups, which to my mind were made for the sole purpose of bailing Galactica out of the responsibility for a genocide. But I'm not going to judge the whole show at this point--it's WAY too early for that. I'm even more of a music buff than a TV buff, and I don't write off a band until there are 3 stinkers in a row. Let's wait and see if this a pattern before we write BsG off. --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

My additional $.02 - I'm going to have to disagree with my esteemed colleague from across the aisle, GeorgeW. I have no complaint with the political/moral questions that the writers have chosen to tackle this season. I do not believe that sci-fi was ever supposed to be purely escapist. Think of Frank Herbert's Dune which was essentially a political novel in sci-fi clothing. And the reason it is still regarded as one of the greatest sci-fi novels ever written was '''attention to detail!'''

What's made BSG so engaging has been its willingness to tackle the dark and gritty sides of a sci-fi story and thus make it far more real. This season's espisodes especially, have dug into tough questions about the justification of actions taken by a society being oppressed and even threatened with extinction - and kudos to Mr. Moore and Co. for going there! While they chose Nazi-esque imagery to illustrate the cylon occupation of New Caprica, the physical and psycological torture depicted there is exactly what Palestinians have been living with every day for decades, and I think it's extraordinary that this show has dared to ask American audiences to speculate how they would react if the same sort of conditions were imposed on us.

Consider Fox's 24, an unabashed advertisement for torture in the name of patriotism - nothing more than fearmongering to stir up a post-911 traumatised public into a state of jackboot-stamping, flag-waving paranoia, willing to hand over their civil liberties to facists. As grim as the first two episodes of this BSG season were, it was refreshing to see some element of pop culture actually asking viewers to stop and think - rather than just telling them what to believe.

If there's been a drop in ratings as a result of this storyline, it's only because so many Americans have let their capacity for critical thought atrophy over the last 40 years. (But just as likely, as was stated above, it was Sci-fi's choice to break up its powerhouse Friday night schedule. Frankly, canning Atlantis and popping the new Doctor Who episodes into the vacant slot would have been the prefered alternative.)

So back to my original point. With a wink and a nod to technobabble - the show's about homicidal robots for gosh sake - can we please just pay attention to the logical details. It's science-fiction, and we, the viewers, have already given the writers our willing suspension of disbelief. I'm just asking not to be abused with rediculous and downright stupid plot loopholes and gaffes in return for the privilege. I'm not writing off BSG either. Yet. But this last episode, which held such promise for having raised the stakes to the level of genocide, fell utterly flat - tripped up by the banana peels of sloppy writing.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 16:54, 14 November 2006 (CST)

In response to the original poster, I agree with you. This is not one of the show's shining moments.

--[[User:Crazyrabbits|Crazyrabbits]] 10:00, 15 November 2006 (CST)

I think that while there have been better episodes, this was not a bad episode by any stretch. The thing about this episode was a few disconnects between fact and set design, but as far as the cascading environmental systems... yes and no. Very often in any ship-to-ship battle, space or otherwise, the most common cause of death has been fire (for the ship itself). It burns away and blows up. If its that simple to isolate a section and vent it, that could prevent fire damage quickly. Also, note that the door was locked, so the decompression couldn't spread. Finally, I imagine that the Marines would have been on standby throughout the ship, and certainly Lee would have been needed elsewhere.

--[[User:PhoenixFlight|PhoenixFlight]] 14:01, 30 December 2006 (CST)

== Explanations ==

A note about the Resurection ship jumping into the battle... it would seem that this is actually a good tactical move from the Cylon perspective. After Pegasus and Galactica easily destroyed the first resurrection ship and it's escorts, it would be prudent for the Cylons to keep the new ship with their fleet... even if this means taking it into battle with them. From their point of view it might look as if Galactica was trying to sucker the baseships away from the resurrection ship so the colonials could attack it. They've already used the "sucker" strategy a number of times, we could just be seeing a Cylon reaction to that strategy. Bringing the ship with them would negate such a threat as several basestars (more than enough to hold galactica off) would be able to cover for it.

As far as supply lines, it would figure that Galactica would know about this. Basic military strategy is to harass or at least keep an eye on enemy supply lines.

Also a note about the raptors and their missiles. The colonials may have found, after the battle over new caprica, that the missile attachments for the raptors were effective and could be adapted for other (combat) uses as well. It would also figure that after the loss of Pegasus, the colonials would be trying everything they could to increase firepower. This is probably just a jury-rig solution for increasing galactica's firepower.

: And all this has yet to be supported on screen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:45, 13 November 2006 (CST)

::In [[The Captain's Hand]] Admiral Adama orders a recon of 5 Raptors, 2 of them SAR and 3 Escort. Though never seen onscreen heavily armed Raptors must have been around for some time. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:57, 13 November 2006 (CST)

: It is also distinctly possible that the weapon pods were not available until the arrival of the Pegasus. The cache at Ragnar Anchorage was likely primarily the weapons themselves, and not a supply of launchers or similar hardware. Since Galactica was slated for retirement and Pegasus was fully operational it is very likely the later ship was much better equipped with combat military hardware.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 22:30, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== About Gaeta ==
Looking at the question here:

: Why is Gaeta so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D'Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?

Er, well, the last time Gaeta saw Baltar, he gave him a gun and told him his last chance at redemption was to stop Three from setting off the nuke. Given that the nuke didn't go off, it isn't unreasonable to believe Baltar was successful, and that in succeeding he would have either died or been stranded on New Caprica. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 02:50, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:Gaeta knew that he was chummy with the Cylons. For him to convince them not to detonate the nuke (not hard, given that it would be at best a symbolic gesture) and still make it off the planet alive is well within the realm of possibility. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==A quick battle==

I was just wondering but is the skirmish with Galactica and the Basestars going to be added into the Second Cylon War or not? Sure it was short but it still had combat and casualties so it should be added to the list. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:54, 13 November 2006 (CST)
: Sure, I don't see why not. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:10, 13 November 2006 (CST)

Should it be known as a battle or more of a skirmish? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:21, 22 November 2006 (CST)

==Baltar's Torture==

This is just pure speculation for speculation's sake, but I can't help thinking something more than Three being "touched" by Baltar's insane screaming of "don't stop..." "I believe in you" and "I love you with all my heart" (with internal Six's coaching) is going on in this scene. Three's indiference at the onset of her torturing, and her musing over which torture tool she should use doesnt seem like it could be changed or swayed by anything Baltar would say. i would say that judging from the torture tools they have, and their experiences on New Caprica at extracting information on detainees they know a little about torturing, it doesn't seem that Baltar saying anything he could to stop the torture would be unexpected. This leads me to wonder about exactly what he did say with the help of internal Six. perhaps those phrases, or the way he said it struck something in Three that only Cylons are aware of...maybe it means something that neither the Viewer or Baltar is aware of...I just find it hard to believe that Three, fully prepared for torture, even having fun picking what instrument to use...could be so easily moved from some snivelling bleating human saying he loves her with all his heart...Did Six give Baltar these phrases to say because she knew they'd strike a cord in a fellow Cylon, Three's reaction was quite a reaction, and then touching his lips like she couldn't believe those words came out of his mouth.....I don't know...just speculating.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:23, 14 November 2006 (CST)

--I wonder if the incongruity of those phrases to the situation of being tortured made Three wonder if Baltar was projecting. Now, if they've tortured other humans, they've probably seen people break with reality and shut down before, but perhaps that's a reaction beyond anything they've ever seen before. More like a Cylon being tortured? Is that what their instinct is, if they're in the same situation as Baltar? --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

==Note about the virus is incorrect==

The note:

Dr. Cottle identifies the disease as Lymphocytic encephalitis, however encephalitis is a condition (swelling of the brain) that can be caused by a pathogen, not a pathogen itself. More likely the pathogen is Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus.

When a doctor identifies a disease, he normally states the name of the disease, not the name of the virus. The note itself states that Doc Cottle identifies the "disease," not the pathogen. I think the note needs to be modified or deleted. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 20:58, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== Accessing the "Hybrid?" ==

Is that what Athena is doing? Do we know that? It just sounds odd when phrased that way. [[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 02:56, 14 November 2006 (CST)

== The antibody degradative debate? ==

Ok, the latest addition to this point is the most scientifically accurate (antibodies do not have degradative functionality)! Read the wiki articles yourself to confirm and help you understand. On a more serious note if contributors (chiefly the second one on this topic) feel that an explanation or analysis point is incorrect or poorly explained than they need to do their homework before they dispute it and make up their own science. I know its only a fan wiki on battlestar but lets not plague our site with scientific inconsistencies like in 'A measure of Salvation' (Their science advisor must of been on holiday when this was written), after all we have luxury of being able to correct ourselves in hindsight ;) [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 18:10, 15 November 2006 (CST)

:Sorry, but antibodies *do* have degradative capability, it has been known for at least 4 years now. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/298/5601/2195

::Alright, this is getting silly now. This article is talking about the antibody catalysed generation of peroxide and an ozone analogue, referring to the apparent toxicity of these products to bacterial species - no mention of RNA degradation (or any other kind of degradation for that matter) here, mate!. Im super sorry, but AB's **don't** have degradative functionality! [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 15:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:After spending over 25 years working in the clincial field (including being a lab director and now consultant), much of it involving research in imunology, immunohematology, genetics, and similar areas, I believe I know a bit more than what's presented in a few overly simplistic paragraphs in some an abbreviated article. I've dealt with far to many on the internet like yourself who reads a few sentences and brands themselves an expert. I came to this site because I believed it would be an enjoyable place to talk about my favorite show, but apparently this is just another one flled with those who prefer to hide behind their monitors and make snide comments. I'm not here to get into this type of garbage, so that's it, I'm done and out of here.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 01:07, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::There will always be people that claim to know all and others that really do belive that they know the right answer. The solution is just to provide loads of sourced for what you say. I dont know of your technical background but it would be very beneficial for all if you stayed and we can work this bit out. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:02, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::I'm sorry you feel that way, and I do have a solution to the above issue. It's a really simple solution, so here goes: all the science information needs to be sourced. I'm not talking about using links to Wikipedia (which we shouldn't really be sourcing from anyway), but I'm talking about adding sources from scientific journals and the like. References that GeorgeW should have access to, if I'm correct on that. Otherwise, I'm inclined to yank the entire thing since it isn't sourced at all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:41, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::: I have cited an excellent reference on this topic in the article, a text that was very useful to me in my first undergrad year. It would be rather difficult to cite an appropriate journal (even a review) because the topic is very basic. In addition very few people would have access to any article cited without paying or having a subscription (personal or institutional), though most major libraries are bound to stock this text. My inclusion of Wiki articles as references were due to the fact that they provide a sound and simplistic (extremely accurate, believe it or not!) explanation of the relevant topics, as I assume most people reading these articles don't have a degree in a biological science. As for George W. Bush's 25 years of clinical experience (hmm?), I'd like to know if he's willing to dispute a scientific textbook! [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 17:51, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::::Regardless of who is right or wrong (I'm NOT taking sides here), there shouldn't be debate in the analysis section. Currently it reads like:
::::A
:::::NOT (A)
::::::NOT (NOT (A))
::::Which is NOT (Encycopledic) to read. Pull out your sources, measure them (weigh them, whatever), and the winner takes all (and gets a quick blurb about A (or NOT (A)) in the "Analysis" section). Also, when citing your sources you may want to make use of the [[:Category:Citation templates|citation templates]] when citing books, journal articles, etc. That's what makes the cool little footnotes that show up in the "References" section. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:06, 16 November 2006 (CST)

== sickbay ship ==

William Adama says in the final scene:

:''Cottle's report from the virus: He thinks that it was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon '''we''' abandoned on '''the sickbay ship'''.''

*What is ''the sickbay ship''? When did this happen?
*Who does ''we'' refer to in this statement if Adama and Laura seem to believe that the beacon was left there as a ''signpost to earth''?

--[[User:Pix|Pix]] 01:35, 17 November 2006 (CST)

:From Sadgeezer's transcript:
:'''Adama, standing''': Cottle's report on the virus. He thinks that it was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon we abandoned on the sick baseship.

:'''Roslin''': Somebody sneezed, maybe.

:SO to the first, I think it was sick baseship, not sickbay ship. And the we refers to the Fleet collectively, but specifically to themselves (being the decisionmakers that decided to leave it onboard the baseship rather than bring it aboard and risk contamination). It sounds like they maybe wish they'd have picked it up now, but at least they're on the right track.
:If you check out the [[Podcast:A Measure of Salvation|podcast transcript]], you'll hear/see that actually as originally scripted they did pick up the beacon, and were going to chuck it through space at the Cylons, but the writers/producers decided that was lame and chose to leave it on the destroyed ship rather than have to deal with getting rid of it in a subsequent episode. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 17 November 2006 (CST)

::Haha, I can't believe that Adama's strange speaking rhythm in that scene completely threw me off. The interpretation, ''sick baseship'' had never entered my mind, despite making considerably more sense. --[[User:Pix|Pix]] 19:42, 17 November 2006 (CST)

== Battle Article ==
Does the little skirmish deserve a "Battle of NCD2539" article? --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 17:57, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:Sure. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:49, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Virus "Discussion" ==
Wouldn't the majority of this "discussion" fit in the [[Life sciences in the Re-imagined Series
]] article? Would make the episode article much neater. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:10, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:Why is it beyond everyone to just admit that the medical technobabble was complete BS? There's no profit to be found in coming up with excuses for it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:24, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== I don't get it. ==

Can somebody explain the premise of this episode? How does this virus threaten to become a genocidal pandemic?

There was some technobabble that I didn't quite understand (perhaps somebody can elucidate) about how an infected Cyclon who dies would somehow download the contagion along with its memories.

Accepting that the infected Cylon remains infected after resurrection, how would the contagion spread from there? Presumably the first words out of the mouth of the Cylon after resurrection would be "I'M INFECTED!!!" and the resurrection ship would quarantine itself, or simply destroy itself. Even if the carrier Cylon were unable to communicate its status, the Cylons still know about the existence of the threat (which is why the infected basestar was left marooned), and are presumably intelligent enough not to let anything leave a resurrection ship without first being checked and cleared.

I've watched the episode twice now, and I still have no idea how this virus was supposed to threaten the entire Cylon race. Can somebody explain it so that this idiot (me) can understand?

On an unrelated note, Hera, who cured Roslin's cancer in an earlier episode and has now rendered Athena immune to the Cylon plague, is starting to remind me of the magical crossbreed from [[Wikipedia:V (The Final Battle)|V: The Final Battle]]. When you're cribbing from "V," you're really scraping the bottom of the sci-fi barrel.

[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 15:17, 25 November 2006 (CST)

: Well, it's confusing and the writers would have made the episode better had they actually thought this through and presented the idea to a science advisor, such as Dr. Kevin Grazier. From what I personally can gather from watching this episode, the effects of the virus would corrupt Cylon programming. (The actual virus itself wouldn't be transmitted, since biological viruses are not transmitted during the download process, the memories -- applications and application data, if you will -- are.) Given that memories are shared between Cylon models, it's feasible that there is a central memory database that is constantly being revised (like a wiki, for instance). If you add corrupted information and that information is transmitted throughout the Cylon collective (for lack of a better term), it would cause the Cylons to stop functioning, hence the threat. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:09, 25 November 2006 (CST)

::And unlike the magic cancer-cure Athenas immunity through pregnancy appears quite credible, given that there are many ways a womans body can be affected by a pregnancy, e.g. under certain conditions involving the [[Wikipedia:Rhesus blood group system|Rhesus Factor]] a pregnancy can lead to the intoduction of genes into the mothers body, that trigger a creation of antigens that will pose a threat to the childs during all further pregnancys. In this case it would simply be that Hera possesses a slighly different form of the human antibody compatible with the cylon body. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 16:37, 25 November 2006 (CST)

OMG! No fanwank needed. Just more careful listening.

A baseship is infected with this deadly, communicable, downloadable pathogen.

The resurrection ship says, "Gee, nothing personal, but if you download to us, you'll bring the infection, and then we'd have to shut down the resurrection ship, or it would infect the rest of the fleet. So, bye!"

The Galactica comes along and asks one of the survivors why the infected ship was abandoned. It answers, "If one of us dies and is resurrected, the disease will follow, infecting the resurrection ship, and the fleet."

Apollo thinks, "OMG, did I hear that right? If an infected Cylon downloads, it will infect the whole fleet? Booyah!"

That's it. No fanwank needed. The most straightforward reading is simply that there was never any genocidal threat at all -- just some wishful thinking!

We don't even really need to explain how the pathogen is downloadable. All we need is that the Cylons were concerned that the pathogen ''might'' be downloadable. It's not like they were going to risk a resurrection ship to test that one experimentally.

Props to [[User:Keanzu|Keanzu]] for adding an inspirational question to the article.

--[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 07:47, 26 November 2006 (CST)

Slight problem with this reading: In [[Torn]], a [[Number Three]] says, "Nobody likes it, but we have to make a terrible choice. Do we attempt a rescue, risk the lives of our fleet, even our species, or do we leave them?" Keep in mind, however, she is a tabloid hack, and was probably just being sensationalistic. --[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 10:08, 26 November 2006 (CST)

== sidestepping Helo's "murder" issues ==

Galactica's plan was to execute the prisoners once it was within range of a Cylon resurrection ship. They never stated why they planned to execute all of the prisoners (including the one who had cooperated in exchange for treatment) instead of just one of them, and I think they sidestepped some interesting moral complexities that would have been present if they had planned to execute only one of them.

Helo killed the five prisoners just minutes before they were to be executed anyway. Considering the stakes, I guess he can shrug that off.

But what if the plan had been to execute only one of the prisoners, and for the other four prisoners to live out very long lives on Galactica, kept alive by a drug developed from human antigens? In that case, Helo could have thwarted the plan only by murdering four prisoners who otherwise had the rest of their lives ahead of them. (Cally's case established that retiring a skin job isn't murder in a ''legal'' sense, but it surely is in the minds of Helo and Athena, especially if the subject can't download.)

This action would have been possible to rationalize in terms of the numbers -- killing four to save the rest of the race -- but the moral issues couldn't simply have been ignored, especially considering the fact that there's no guarantee that the genocidal plan would have worked anyway. Helo would have had to grapple with the fact that, in order to destroy this potentially genocidal biological weapon, he murdered four defenseless prisoners (or five, if you include the one who was about to be killed anyway).

This series has so far shown a willingness to delve into issues of moral complexity, so I'm not going to leap to the conclusion that the writers chose the route they did for the purpose of sidestepping these complexities, but I do think it would have been more interesting (and more believable, since there really is no reason given to kill all five prisoners) if they had gone the other route.

--[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 03:30, 26 November 2006 (CST)

Even if the plan had been to execute only one of the five prisoners (which would've been a smarter move), one of the remaining four will still be executed once they run into another Cylon fleet (even if the disease transmitted to the Ressurrection Ship and the four Basestars, the other Cylons would still be lightyears away and survive). If Helo hadn't stopped the plan, the Ressurrection Ship would've gotten infected and died (with all the skinjobs on it), and probably the four basestars as well (including all skinjobs on board and the 3200 associated Raiders). Even worse, if Apollo had shown a little more cleverness, they would've been able to pull off such a stunt 5 times, resulting in approx 20,000 Cylon casualties. Killing 5 Cylons (who would've died anyway) to save tens of thousands of other Cylons doesn't sound like murder to me.

BTW, to clarify, you're wrong in saying that the other 4 would've survived. They would, but only as weapons against another Cylon fleet which is bound to turn up some day.

[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:56, 30 November 2006 (CST)