Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

User talk:Mevenstar

2007-11-25T19:56:13Z

Mevenstar:

== Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! ==
Welcome to the Wiki, Mevenstar. Feel free to tell us about yourself on [[User:Mevenstar|your user page]]. Before you get started on other edits, please read the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions|Standards and Conventions]], which details the policies we use in editing pages (this differs from many other wikis in its particular use of verb tense, abbreviations, formatting, and the like). If you need help in learning how to use the MediaWiki tools supported here, you can check out the [[BW:TUT|tutorial]] and the [[BW:MARK|wiki markup code]] pages for assistance.

Please read the articles [[Battlestar Wiki:What is Battlestar Wiki|"What is Battlestar Wiki"]] and [[Battlestar Wiki:What Battlestar Wiki is not|"What Battlestar Wiki is Not."]] This important information details what contributions are acceptable in this encyclopedia.

We encourage you to participate in any [[Battlestar Wiki:Project List|projects]] on Battlestar Wiki, which work to enhance a particular subject or extension of the wiki. These include the [[Battlestar Wiki:Original Series Article Development Project|Original Series Article Development Project]] and several [[Battlestar Wiki:Translation Project|language translations of Battlestar Wiki]]. If you have a new idea for a new project, visit the [[BW:TANK|Think Tank]], where we hash out large-scale ideas before implementing them.

Also, if you have any questions or suggestions you wish to offer, please feel free to do so either on an article's talk page that's relevant to the subject, the [[Battlestar Wiki:Wikipedian Quorum|Wikipedian Quorum]] or [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|the Administrators' noticeboard]]. Remember to sign your posts on any talk pages using four tildes (~~~~)!

We look forward to your contributions to the community!
--[[User:Talos|Talos]] 06:58, 22 January 2007 (CST)

== Signing your comments ==

Please remember to sign your comments on talk pages with four tildes. Like this: <nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki>

That will automatically add a timestamp and your name. There is also a button/quicklink under the editbox for it. Thanks --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:23, 24 January 2007 (CST)

thank you! <nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki>

:Don't use the nowiki tags! Those are just to show you the code. Leave them away and it will be converted into timestamp and name. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:56, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::If you find it easier, click this http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/skins/common/images/button_sig.png button when editing. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:28, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank

2007-11-07T05:51:17Z

Mevenstar: /* Current ideas under Vote */

{{project|Think Tank|image=BSG WIKI ThinkTank.png|shortcut=BW:TANK}}

The '''Think Tank''' is a way to [[BW:BOLD|be bold]] and get other people to help in your quest to make bold actions on the wiki. The following are items that are considered major decisions which must go through the Think Tank vetting process prior to '''any''' implementation:

* New policy proposals.
* New projects.
* New templates.
* Extensive modifications to already existing policies.
* Anything considered major by administrator (and/or community) consensus.

Any of these must be proposed prior to implementation. This process ensures that the originator of the idea receives the proper feedback and that all ideas are properly fleshed out prior to any wiki-wide implementation. Basically, "let's make a plan before we hit the ground running".

= Procedures =

To propose a new idea, add the name of the idea below:

<inputbox>
type=create
width=75
prefix=Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/
default=Name of idea
buttonlabel=Create Idea
preload=Template:thinktank
</inputbox>
#Save page, then re-edit. Fill out all applicable fields.
#Once you're done, save the page and add the following to '''Current ideas''':
#: <tt><nowiki>* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/name of idea]]</nowiki></tt>

== Instructions ==

The input of all interested members of the community is needed for the Think Tank to operate properly. Any user may comment on proposed ideas on the discussion page of the proposal. (Comments should not be added to the actual proposal itself. Also, do note that changes to the proposal itself should be made when consensus on debated items is determined.)

Should a vote be necessary to determine consensus, all administrators are required to vote on the proposal, using {{tl|oppose}}, {{tl|support}} or {{tl|neutral}}, with explainations on their vote.

For voting, a reasonable time frame must be put into place; the default deadline for voting on proposals should be seven days. When indicating a deadline, please include the date ''and'' time in UTC. Deadlines can be extended, but only if the necessity of such an action is determined by a majority.

== Administrator instructions ==

To determine consensus at the end of voting, add up the total number of support votes and divide by the total number of votes. Should the number meet or exceed 80%, then the Think Tank proposal passes. Anything between 45-55% of support will be considered as not having achieved consensus. '''Proposals that have not achieved consensus are to be shelved for a period time until it can be brought back into the light.'''

Once done, the proposals are to be archived for future reference, and separated into three groups: '''Successful proposals''', '''Unsuccessful proposals''', and '''Proposals without consensus'''.

To archive a page, add ''one'' the following to the top of each page:

# For successful proposals: {{tl|ttp}}
# For unsuccessful proposals: {{tl|ttu}}
# For proposals without consensus: {{tl|ttnc}}

And to all proposals, add the following to the ''bottom'': {{tl|ttf}}

= Ideas =

This is where all the ideas are located and, when applicable, archived.

== Current ideas ==
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Archivestarwiki]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Forum implementation]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Episode airdate information]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Character Bio Project]]

== Current ideas under Vote ==

Has it occurredto RDM or anyone at NBCUniversal how many fans will actually DIE before this show concludes. I mean thousands and thousands of people are hooked to this thing, and pure statistics says many will succumb to the reaper by accident disease or whatever before these selfish SOBs reveal this thing basically because SCI-Fi can't come up with anything as good except for Atlantis.

Tragic and shameful on the part of these so-called entertainment executives.
I'm HIV + and I'm getting really pissed.

Well not that pissed, but certainly annoyed.LOL

-mevenstar1@roadrunner.com
Hollywood,CA

--[[User:Mevenstar|Mevenstar]] 23:51, 6 November 2007 (CST)

== Past ideas ==

=== Successful proposals ===

* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Admin name change]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Translations Standards and Conventions]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Separate continuity change]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/TOS Article Pips]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Deletion Archives]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Red Link Policy]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/News Policy]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Video Ext]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/MySpace Presence]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/TV Companies]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Portal:Merchandise]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Username policy]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Episode pages are not forums]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Audio Clip Project]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Wiki Blog]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Things you just don't do, not even in war]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Leave of Absence]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Affiliate Stores]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Wikipedia Policies]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/DVD Project]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Audio Project]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Star of Kobol]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Episode Standardization]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Move Squad]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Cite Templates]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Official Representation]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Episode number links]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Biography Standardization]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/CSS Layout]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Separate continuity]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Fanwanking]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Q and A, Video Blogs, Etc. Project]]

=== Unsuccessful proposals ===

* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Errors Policy]] - Failed June 18, 2007
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Poll Template]] - Failed July 19, 2006
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Episode Transcripts]] - Failed October 10, 2006
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/RC Patrol]] - Failed October 23, 2006
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Image Cropping Promo Images]] - Failed September 20, 2006
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Rating System]] - Failed February 15, 2007
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Copyright Strategy]] -''de facto'' failure, April 11, 2007

=== Proposals without consensus ===
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/User Spotlight]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/IRC]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Birthday in Quotes]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Links Discretion]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Lists of Unnamed characters]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/RfA Amendments]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/New User Survey]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Image Naming Conventions]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Goofs and Mistakes series]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Deletion discussions]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Research proposal for Cylon name]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Female Involvement]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank/Promotional Images]]

: '''''Note:''' These proposals are rendered inactive. It is recommended that they are to stay that way for a pre-determined period of time, until they can be revisited with refreshed minds.''

Portal talk:Cylons

2007-07-05T15:40:29Z

Mevenstar: /* "Suspected Cylon of the Week" (Post Crossroads) */

Where and how will this be displayed when finished?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:37, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:Still working on that. It has to do with the new Main Page design that I worked on. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 21:38, 15 March 2006 (CST)

== Boxheader template issues ==
The biggest outstanding issue is with the boxheader regarding defining the colors for the title/body/borders, etc. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:23, 15 March 2006 (CST)
: Colors should not, if possible, be specified in the wikicode or the HTML. Ideally, we should use classes to control color, so that these templates may look good across all skins for the Wiki. This might take some coordination with Joe, though. --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:23, 15 March 2006 (CST)
::Didn't he send you the CSS so you could play with that? Anyway, if you can get the colors going, you're welcome to them. I can't even HARDCODE them correctly through all these layers of templates (portal->portal/boxheader->boxheader). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:36, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:::I am going to solict some outside help for this problem. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 10:00, 16 March 2006 (CST)

== TOS Cylon Pic ==
Would you like me to get a screen capture of a close-up of a TOS Centurion? I think that would look better than the DVD box cover. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:19, 17 March 2006 (CST)
: Sure. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:20, 18 March 2006 (CST)

== Limiting the universe? ==

Is this portal to be restricted to the RDM universe? As the wording curently stands, a very large chunk of this page relates only to RDM, not TOS/1980. Anything beyond the 5th sentence, in fact. --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 08:06, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:No. It's unretricited to series. Right now most of the infomration I knew came from the RDM series. Once we get the "boxes" to work with the edit button I can add something about the (TOS) "Toaster" Cylons compared with the RDM Metal Cylons. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 10:53, 19 March 2006 (CST)

== What's Up With This? ==

So I was clicking around and seeing what was going on with this (I missed the upgrade and so didn't realize we could begin forward motion again)? This portal is listed as "done" on the project page but looks kind of jacked up to me. Should we move it, or am I missing some detail or... something? --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 02:41, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

:Correct. This is currently "jacked up". I think Shane dropped it down to one box to simplify the task of troubleshooting why the boxheaders/boxfooters aren't working as designed. I guess this could be safely moved to "not done". --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:15, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

::The introduction text is ''really'' poorly written right now. Is the page intended to speak of ALL Cylons, or properly divide the RDM and TOS varieties? I missed the upgrade adjustments as well and so I'm trying to figure in the purpose and advantage of the portals vs their existing articles. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:52, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

:::The idea behind the portals would be not to replace an existing article, but to act as a central hub for activity and interest about specific topics. Example: [[Wikipedia:Portal:Physics]]. The person who started this Portal intended it to encompass ALL Cylons, but there's probably a lot more interest and activity related to the RDM Cylons. There was actually some pretty interesting stuff on earlier versions of this page if you dig back into the history, but there are currently technical difficulties that are keeping the portal boxes from being implemented as smoothly as the Wikipedia one (check out the code behind the wikipedia portal). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:02, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm not sure there really is one, particularly with as small an article space as we have compared to wikipedia. At any rate, having TOS, 1980 and RDM content mixed together doesn't strike me as very useful. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:40, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

== Current Human-Cylon Models Sub-Portal ==

I have been trying for a week and I still cannot get the pictures to line up on the main Cylons Portal page. When you go to edit the Current Human-Cylon Models Sub-Portal it looks fine but editing the script on the Cylons portal does nothing. Anyone else have any ideas? [[User:Nwobkwr|Nwobkwr]] 17:29, 23 May 2006 (CDT)

:Maybe it would be and look better if instead of the Agents we just put a list of everything that fits into the Cylon Category organized by what it is?

Ex: '''Cylon Vessels:'''
Raider
Basestar
Resurrection Ship
Heavy raider

I dunno, I think it would look a bit more organized... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:59, 02 June 2006

:Maybe we could have a separate list of ships but putting them all together would be a little crowded. Anyway,-->the pictures still aren't lining up right. We may have to drop those reference tags if they're screwing up the alignment and just write than info on the bottom. Actually, I'll try that out now; if it doens't work change it back or something. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 08:13, 3 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, I meant without pictures (at least the majority), sort of like the simple Cylon Page, but instead of being organized by Letter organized by category. Just some thoughts, since I've found it hard to get to certain articles without searching. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 05:24, 05 June 2006

::: How about using invisible wikitables? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 06:28, 5 June 2006 (CDT)

The wikitables idea is good but it appears it is already set up that way in the sub-portal. If you're not sure what I mean click the edit button beside "Current Human-Cylon Models." When the page comes up click Portal at the top and you'll see what I mean. It also seems that the entire page needs some revamping since new items have been added since my last post. [[User:Nwobkwr|Nwobkwr]] 18:50, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Three known to the fleet?==
With Anders in the fleet, wouldn't they know of Number 3 now? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:16, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
:Yes and No. There is no on screen evidence that eh told her. I was thinking about this too and I was tempted to remove it myself. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 20:56, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
::Well, given that Threes were fairly visible in the occupation, I think it's safe to say they're known to the fleet. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:35, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

=="Suspected Cylon of the Week"==
I think it should be changed to [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] because of all the speculation after Exodus II. (even though I think he is NOT a cylon) - [[User:Genome4824|GMo >:M:<]] 21:16, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:Go crazy. :-) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:48, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

==Number 2==
I think we should add a notes section that talks about Cavil being #2 (refer to [[Talk:Cavil#Number_Two]]). Say something like "Some fans believe [[Cavil]] is actually #2

Evidence:
* "Number Two: This is three downloads for me." that is the quote from the Captioning for Exodus Part I.
:{{neutral}} (Are we allowed to use that outside of actual votes?) --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 20:00, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:{{oppose}} Captioning evidence is far to flimsy. Let's be patient. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:05, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:{{oppose}} Ditto with what Peter said, and I'd like him to be Number Two, but can't let emotions guide the reporting.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 20:08, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:{{oppose}} Also. CC is designed to indetify which person is speaking. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 20:11, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:{{oppose}} Captions are often misspelled, incorrect, and not in sync with dialogue (particularly the case with ad-libs). Stronger evidence is needed before making a determination. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:00, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::Guess we are allowed to use it outside of votes! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 20:15, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:{{oppose}} As with the points above, CC is not a good source, and though I'd also be thrilled at him having a number, I'd rather it be confirmed elsewhere. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:{{oppose}} As above. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:10, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== "Human-Cylon Models of the Reimagined Series" Box Clean-Up? ==

Does anyone else think that the current layout for the Cylon Agent box is getting messy. It'd be a great template if we had more numbers, and it was fine with just Leoben, Cavil, and Simon, but now that we've gotten four more cylons, it just seems kind of silly to have all those blank heads and then the other seven down below, taking up so much room. I really like [[this template|http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Cylon_Models#Known_Models]]. Changing the one here to that one I think would work well. Another thing we could do is just reduce the spacing between the Number Unknown cylons in this template. There's no reason they need three lines. Reduce the spacing, and you can get all four of the newest ones onto a single line. If, IF, we ever get the rest of the numbers, I think this template could be great, but with so many numbers unknown, it seems cluttered to me. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 13:19, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
:Right. The unknowns should be removed in the list of all 12, and all members of the Significant Seven be put there. Then the Final Five (Four) can be listed below. I don't share the obsession about their numbers anyways. There is no meaning behind them. Right now, it's just pointless duplication. I think it looks much better now. Comments? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:42, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
::It looks scattered and confusing to me right now. Can't you get it into a nice 4x3 matrix? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 14:59, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Only by losing the Significant Seven/Final Five distinction. I think that's at least something people would want. Maybe put all seven in one row? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:07, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
::::True. The 4-3-5 layout you've good right now is good in essentials, but the pictures are somewhat shifted, i.e. Leoben should be in the middle between Three and Five (right now he's too far to the left), Simon between Five and Six (slightly to the right atm), and Cavil between Six and Eight (almost directly underneath Eight currently). You should be able to do this with a 2x7 table (2 rows, 7 cols), putting the pictures in the odd-numbered columns in the top row, and the even-numbered columns in the bottom row. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 15:40, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::In the end.. though.. they will all be listed by model number.. I hope. So lets just do it.. Unk... Numbers .... Unk Numbers in 6 wide, 2 deep. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:51, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::I see what you mean. I'll see what can be done... --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:13, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::Erm, Shane, could you explain what you mean? Also, the number known/unknown distinction is already present. The page looks slightly better now, except that Cavil is still somewhat too far to the right, and Leoben too far to the left. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 06:27, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::::Probably an alignment issue. Theoretically they are all centered in their cells though. This table stuff confuses me somewhat. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:20, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
Is there no better title than The Significant Seven? I realize it was the term that was used in some interviews, but it was never used in the series, and personally, I think it sounds pretty silly, especially considering that the Final Five seem to be the significant ones. Anything better to call them? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 01:42, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

== Some questions ==

In the last cylon box: "The Last Cylon's true identity is only known to him- or herself." - do we know this? They could be like Boomer or the "final four".

This portal does not mention [[Raiders (RDM)|Cylon Raiders]], the [[hybrid]], or [[Hera Agathon]] and [[Nicholas Tyrol]], who are all cylons to some extent. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 08:07, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

:Fixed. Changed it to "is unknown". I also linked spacecraft in general and the basestar hybrid. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:43, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

Can anyone explain what is going on with the "Final Stats" section of the Last Cylon box. Number of Suspected Cylons: 5? Where did this number come from? What does it mean? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 01:39, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:It's the number of people that have featured in our "Suspected Cylon of the Week" section (a misnomer, as it's been updated roughly every two months), more precisely Billy, Gaeta, Jammer, Dee, Ellen and Kat (so it's supposed to be 6, I changed it) "Total guesses right: 0" means none of those five actually turned out to be a Cylon. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 07:24, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

== "Suspected Cylon of the Week" (Post Crossroads) ==

"We aren't smart enough to figure it out", doesn't really make sense (and it also puts more faith in the writers than is really justified. In my opinion we should either start speculating again or cut the section. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 17:00, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
:Concur. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:20, 20 June 2007 (CDT)
:I agree. Having a section that basically says "we can't think of anything useful to put here" is a textbook example of superfluousness. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 08:35, 20 June 2007 (CDT)...
:I personally like it, it's funny. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:25, 20 June 2007 (CDT)
the entire Wiki is at the mercy of Laura Rolin's dizzy spell and kara's new bod...they can't both be cylons.
"isn't smart enough" is a humble way out alot of people cannot accept the kobol lords or anything reminescent to a being of light apeaaring on the show..the shows gripping realism is at stake if Kara is anything but AI. I'd
claim ignornace too.--[[User:Mevenstar|Mevenstar]] 10:40, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

Final Five

2007-07-05T15:27:46Z

Mevenstar: /* Connections between the Colonial gods and Cylon god */

[[Image:TheFinalFive.JPG|right|thumb|300px|The Final Five in the Kobol Opera House]]
The term "'''Final Five'''" collectively describes five of the twelve [[Humanoid Cylon|humanoid Cylon models]] whose identity, knowledge, or existence has been deliberately or accidentally lost to seven of the Humanoid Cylon models.

[[Caprica-Six]], when asked by Gaius Baltar about the five missing models he has not seen on the [[Basestar (RDM)|baseship]] he lives on or on [[New Caprica]], curtly replies that the others do not talk about the subject ([[Torn]]).

==The unauthorized quest for the Five==
A [[Number Three]] copy, whom [[Gaius Baltar]] calls by her human alias, [[D'Anna Biers]], repeatedly commits suicide to get glimpses of five white-cloaked beings that she believes are images of the Final Five. She attempts to draw what she has seen, but has difficulty in doing so ([[Hero]]).

One detailed sketch which she briefly shows to Baltar depicts her personal artistic rendering of the faces of the Five ([[The Passage]]). The sketch is meant to depict [[Saul Tigh]], [[Galen Tyrol]], [[Samuel Anders]], [[Tory Foster]] and the twelfth and final Cylon. ([[Crossroads, Part II]]).

[[Image:FFSketches.jpg|thumb|left|Sketches of the Five.]]
Baltar's ability to see a virtual doppelganger of Caprica-Six (as well as enjoying her company in various pleasant environments) lead him to suggest that he might be using a Cylon technique known as [[projection]]. This suspicion, in turn, makes Baltar begin a personal inquiry into his own nature after allying himself with D'Anna-Three.

The two eventually make their way to the [[algae planet]], where a Colonial structure, the fabled [[Temple of Five]], awaits with possible answers ("[[The Passage]]", "[[The Eye of Jupiter]]"). When the system's dying star goes nova, a ray of light is generated by the mechanisms of the temple. Number Three steps into the light and suddenly finds herself back in the [[Opera House]] and before the same image of the Five, not persistent. Upon seeing their faces she recognizes one of them in particular, saying in surprise "You... forgive me... I had no idea." She is then pulled back to reality and collapses in Baltar's arms, apparently suffering the effects of a brain hemorrhage. She tells Baltar, "You were right," but dies before answering about what, or telling him what she saw. She tells the [[Cavil]] who greets her in the tank that there are five other Cylons, and he will see them some day.

In a rather striking irony, as the Three sacrifices all to see the Final Five, [[Galen Tyrol]] and [[Samuel Anders]] are just outside the Temple, being shot at by her centurions. Only because Tyrol delays firing off explosives left in the temple does she get a chance to stand within it at activation.

Although four of the final five have been revealed ([[Crossroads, Part II]]), the identity of the person she recognized remains a mystery ([[Rapture]]).

==Awareness of the Five by other seven Cylons==
Caprica Six indicates that the Cylons do not speak of the Five, but she knows how many there are. [[D'Anna Biers]] also indicates to Baltar that they do not discuss the Five. A [[Cavil]] realizes in the [[Temple of Five]] that D'Anna is attempting to see the Final Five, and not simply seeking [[Earth (RDM)|Earth]]. He tells her "That can't happen" and points a gun at her to stop her, but is shot by Baltar. Later, a Cavil explains that because of her obsession her entire line will be [[boxing|boxed]] ([[Rapture]]).

A [[Leoben Conoy]] claims that "Adama is a Cylon" though neither Adama is one of the other six Cylons he should know. If an Adama were a member of the final five, Leoben should not, in theory, know this. It is commonly believed that he is lying ([[Flesh and Bone]]).

The [[Boomer]] copy of Number Eight, interrogated by Baltar, declares there are eight Cylons in the Fleet. Among the individuals now known to be Cylons in the Fleet at the time are Boomer herself, [[D'Anna Biers]], [[Cavil]], [[Saul Tigh]], [[Galen Tyrol]], and [[Tory Foster]]. ([[Samuel Anders]] is on Caprica.) This leaves two Cylons unaccounted for: one is presumably the last member of the Final Five, while the other may be [[Shelly Godfrey]] (if she remained with the fleet) or another unrevealed copy of the original seven. In theory Boomer should have no knowledge of the particular whereabouts of the Final Five members. The number may be a guess, or a lie, or she may actually have some (possibly subconscious) knowledge of the number of Cylons in the Fleet ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]).

A [[Three]] and the resurrected Boomer on Caprica, don't recognize Anders as a Cylon and refer to him as human ([[Downloaded]]).

While [[Centurion]]s are programmed to recognize and obey the [[humanoid Cylon]]s, on a number of occasions they shoot at members of the final five, including at Tyrol on Kobol, and Anders both on Caprica and outside the Temple of Five, and most members during the exodus from [[New Caprica]]. However, they also shot at [[Sharon Agathon]], though they hit neither her nor them.

Both [[Caprica Six]] and Sharon Agathon share a dream vision in which the glowing, white-robed figures of the final five are shown in the [[Opera House]] ([[Crossroads, Part II]]).

An interesting situation arises when considering the nature of humanoid Cylon death and [[Resurrection (RDM)|resurrection]]. If the Final Five can die and download into a new body as the other models can, then there would have to be husks of them in the resurrection facilities. The other models might theoretically be able to see these husks, or interact with members of the Final Five once they download. This raises the question of how many copies of the Final Five there actually are, and whether they can, in fact, download. It is, of course, also possible that the Final Five have their own [[Resurrection Ship]]s.

==Four Revealed==
As the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] draws closer to the [[Ionian nebula]], four people begin hearing an [[The Music|unusual melody]] on wireless radio: these four are Colonel [[Saul Tigh]], Chief [[Galen Tyrol]], Ensign [[Samuel Anders]] and presidential aide [[Tory Foster]] ([[Crossroads, Part I]]). Tyrol and Anders say that the song seems like something from their childhoods, while Tigh becomes progressively more disturbed as he begins to hear the music everywhere on ''Galactica''. Foster becomes noticeably distracted, irritable, and unkempt, claiming to have not been sleeping well. When the fleet finally arrives at the Ionian Nebula the song becomes clear to the four who can hear it and they begin to stalk the halls of ''Galactica'' muttering its mysterious lyrics. Eventually, the four arrive at ''Galactica''’s gym and upon seeing each other the truth becomes clear to them; they are Cylons, four of the Final Five. The nature of these Cylons is clearly different from the other seven. In particular, Colonel Tigh's friendship with William Adama stretches back to shortly after the end of the first Cylon War and in an interview<ref>{{cite_web|url=http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm|title=Post-Gazette Moore interview}}</ref> RDM states Tigh "fought in two wars." ([[Crossroads, Part II]])

After activation, the four revealed Cylons are unaware of anything else then that they are Cylons. In a sense they know less than the audience and the Significant Seven, who at least know that the Final Five are fundamentally different models.<ref>{{cite_rdm_podcast|episode=Frak Party Q and A|act=|id=ffdifferent|timestamp=19:05|totalrunning=78:27}}</ref> Tigh and Anders painfully and confusedly recite events from their lives which make little sense in the context of their newly revealed nature. With particular pain, Tigh asks "My gods, what about Ellen?" His personal execution of his wife for being a Cylon collaborator, and his pain over it, have been a major theme in the episode.

<gallery>
Image:Tyrol Cylon.jpg|[[Galen Tyrol]]
Image:Anders_Cylon.jpg|[[Samuel Anders]]
Image:Tighlon.jpg|[[Saul Tigh]]
Image:Tory Cylon.JPG|[[Tory Foster]]
</gallery>

===Connections between the Colonial gods and Cylon god===
*The Temple of Five was built over 4,000 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], long before the Cylons existed. The [[Thirteenth Tribe (RDM)|Thirteenth Tribe]] would, logically, have no knowledge of these automatons in the strictest sense. However, the Thirteenth Tribe has significant prophetic insight, as shown in the works of [[Pythia]]. According to Colonial scriptures, "Five pillars of the temple were fashioned after the five priests devoted to the one whose name cannot be spoken". This may have been another Lord of Kobol, given that on a deleted scene [[Elosha]] noted that the fall of [[Kobol (RDM)|Kobol]] and its civilization was due in part to a "jealous god".

*On [[New Caprica]], D'Anna/Three meets [[Dodona Selloi]], a human [[oracle]], who relays a message from Three's God, despite the oracle's association with the Lords of Kobol.

*With this information, there is a strong, but unexplained correlation or connection with the the Cylon God and the Lords of Kobol.

#1 The Jealous God, #2 Cylon God and #3 One Whose Name cannot be spoken all hint toward a RDM incarnation of Iblis, but as no metaphysical being has been shown yet to exist, nor any AI before the cylons introduced, it seems
feasible each of these three descriptions may depict more than one Kobol Lord or the cylon god. There are judeo christian montehists that do not believe in speaking the name of their god Jahovah. The Jealous God can be a lucifer or hades like charcter that has set himself up as the Cylon God, The One whose name cannot be spoken can be a kobol lord that has assumed a Johavah like role in exile with the the thirteenth tribe, and the remaining Kobol Lords are in some way connected to the colonials as pantheon similar in form to Mt. Olympus. They may be real or imagined, metaphysical or AI...and all three groups, colonials, 13th tribe and cylons could be in effect worshipping the same being with radically different interpretaions as to the nature of that being, just like muslims, christains and jews.--[[User:Mevenstar|Mevenstar]] 10:27, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

===The Eye of Jupiter and Kara Thrace===
*The Eye of Jupiter storyline introduced an association between Kara Thrace, a human that "doodled" a circular image as a child with no prior derivation (her old apartment on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] has a painting of the image from the episode, "[[Valley of Darkness]]"), and the mandalas or icons of the eye that decorated a temple built 4,000 years before her birth. No further information is revealed other than the prophecy from [[Leoben Conoy]], who told Thrace of an unexplained "destiny" ([[Flesh and Bone]]).

===Illusion or Truth===
*The Threes hunt for and see visions of the Five, which leads to the other Cylons themselves [[boxing]] the entire line of Threes after her discovery, but whether this is done to suppress the notion or actual information of the final five or to relieve the other Cylons of an aberrant model is unclear.

*Later, in dream visions of the [[Opera House]] shared by [[Laura Roslin]], [[Sharon Agathon]] and [[Caprica Six]], the same 5 glowing figures seen by Three appear, along with the same chamber with six drapes, this time empty. Six sees them for a more prolonged period in a second vision.

*As the Temple of Five was apparently built for human usage, the Temple may have only allowed the transitional visions that the Threes see to be more persistent and clear. It may never be revealed what Baltar (or another human) would have seen. While Baltar believed Three and actively participated in her quest, both his virtual Six and a [[Hybrid]] noted that he, not D'Anna/Three, was intended to use the Temple's imaging mechanism as the "chosen one". The human association and significance of the five priests, the god they worshiped, and their connections with the Cylons, Kara Thrace and Baltar are not yet explained.

==Notes==
* The podcast for "[[Rapture]]" confirms that the Final Five Cylons have not been [[boxing|boxed]]<ref>{{cite_rdm_podcast|episode=Rapture|act=4|id=firstboxing|timestamp=41:47|totalrunning=}}</ref>.
* During a Q&A session on the official Sci Fi channel Battlestar Galactica forum Ronald D. Moore notes that he already knows who the last Cylon is, and that he's already left clues as to who it is<ref>[http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2270103&st=0&p=3041263&#entry3041263 20 Answers - SCI FI FORUMS] Retrieved 03-27-2007</ref>.

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Religion]]
[[Category:Colonial Religion (RDM)]]
[[Category:Cylon Religion (RDM)]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Final Five

2007-03-31T21:46:08Z

Mevenstar: /* Connections between the Colonial gods and Cylon god */

{{s3cleanup}}

[[Image:TheFinalFive.JPG|right|thumb|300px|The Final Five in the Kobol Opera House]]
The term "'''final five'''" collectively describes five of the twelve [[Humanoid Cylon|humanoid Cylon models]] whose identity, knowledge, or existence has been deliberately or accidentally lost to seven of the Humanoid Cylon models.

[[Caprica-Six]], when asked by Gaius Baltar about the five missing models he has not seen on the [[Basestar (RDM)|baseship]] he lives on or on [[New Caprica]], curtly replies that the others do not talk about the subject ([[Torn]]).

==The unauthorized quest for the Five==

A [[Number Three]] copy, whom [[Gaius Baltar]] calls by her human alias, [[D'Anna Biers]], repeatedly commits suicide to get glimpses of five white-cloaked beings that she believes are images of the final five. She attempts to draw what she has seen, but has difficulty in doing so ([[Hero]]).

One detailed sketch which she briefly shows to Baltar depicts her personal artistic rendering of the faces of the five ([[The Passage]]). The sketch is meant to depict [[Saul Tigh]], [[Galen Tyrol]], [[Samuel Anders]], [[Tory Foster]] and the twelfth and final Cylon. ([[Crossroads, Part II]]).

[[Image:FFSketches.jpg|thumb|left|Sketches of the Five.]]
Baltar's ability to see a virtual doppelganger of Caprica-Six (as well as enjoying her company in various pleasant environments) lead him to suggest that he might be using a Cylon technique known as [[projection]]. This suspicion, in turn, makes Baltar begin a personal inquiry into his own nature after allying himself with D'Anna-Three.

The two eventually make their way to the [[algae planet]], where a Colonial structure, the fabled [[Temple of Five]], awaits with possible answers ("[[The Passage]]", "[[The Eye of Jupiter]]"). When the system's dying star goes nova, a ray of light is generated by the mechanisms of the temple. D'Anna steps into the light and suddenly finds herself back in the [[Opera House]] and before the same image of the Five, not persistent. Upon seeing their faces she recognizes one of them in particular, saying in surprise "You... forgive me... I had no idea." She is then pulled back to reality and collapses in Baltar's arms, apparently suffering the effects of a brain hemorrhage. She tells Baltar, "You were right," but dies before answering about what, or telling him what she saw. She tells the [[Cavil]] who greets her in the tank that there are five other Cylons, and he will see them some day.

In a rather striking irony, as the Three sacrifices all to see the Final Five, [[Galen Tyrol]] and [[Samuel Anders]] are just outside the Temple, being shot at by her centurions. Only because Tyrol delays firing off explosives left in the temple does she get a chance to stand within it at activation.

Although four of the final five have been revealed ([[Crossroads, Part II]]), the identity of the person she recognized remains a mystery ([[Rapture]]).

==Awareness of the Five by other seven Cylons==
Caprica Six indicates that the Cylons do not speak of the Five, but she knows how many there are. [[D'Anna Biers]] also indicates to Baltar that they do not discuss the Five. A [[Cavil]] realizes in the [[Temple of Five]] that D'Anna is attempting to see the Final Five, and not simply seeking [[Earth]]. He tells her "That can't happen" and points a gun at her to stop her, but is shot by Baltar. Later, a Cavil explains that because of her obsession her entire line will be [[boxing|boxed]] ([[Rapture]]).

A [[Leoben Conoy]] claims that "Adama is a Cylon" though neither Adama is one of the other six Cylons he should know. If an Adama were a member of the final five, Leoben should not, in theory, know this. It is commonly believed that he is lying ([[Flesh and Bone]]).

The [[Boomer]] copy of Number Eight, tortured by Baltar, declares there are eight Cylons in the Fleet. (One of the final five is being poisoned in front of her to extract this information, though she should not be aware he is one.) As [[Samuel Anders]] is not on the Fleet at this time, along with [[Leoben Conoy]], [[Simon]] and [[Aaron Doral]], the number is correct, given the likely presumption that the unrevealed member of the final five is with the Fleet. (If she is not including herself, the number is incorrect.) The number may be a guess, or a lie, or she may actually have some reason to know one of the final five is not with the Fleet ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]).

A [[Three]] and the resurrected Boomer on Caprica, don't recognize Anders as a Cylon and refer to him as human ([[Downloaded]]).

While [[Centurion]]s are programmed to recognize and obey the [[humanoid Cylon]]s, on a number of occasions they shoot at members of the final five, including Anders both on Caprica and outside the Temple of Five, and most members during the exodus from [[New Caprica]]. However, they do not hit them.

Both [[Caprica Six]] and [[Sharon Agathon]] share a dream vision in which the glowing, white-robed figures of the final five are shown in the [[Opera House]] ([[Crossroads, Part II]]).

==Four Revealed==
As the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] draws closer to the [[Ionian nebula]], four people begin hearing an [[The Music|unusual melody]] on wireless radio: these four are Colonel [[Saul Tigh]], Chief [[Galen Tyrol]], Ensign [[Samuel Anders]] and presidential aide [[Tory Foster]] ([[Crossroads, Part I]]). Tyrol and Anders say that the song seems like something from their childhoods, while Tigh becomes progressively more disturbed as he begins to hear the music everywhere on ''Galactica''. Foster becomes noticeably distracted, irritable, and unkempt, claiming to have not been sleeping well. When the fleet finally arrives at the Ionian Nebula the song becomes clear to the four who can hear it and they begin to stalk the halls of ''Galactica'' muttering its mysterious lyrics. Eventually, the four arrive at ''Galactica''’s gym and upon seeing each other the truth becomes clear to them; they are Cylons, four of the final five. The nature of these Cylons is clearly different from the other seven. In particular, Colonel Tigh's friendship with William Adama stretches back to shortly after the end of the first Cylon War and in an interview<ref>{{cite_web|url=http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm|title=Post-Gazette Moore interview}}</ref> RDM states Tigh "fought in two wars." ([[Crossroads, Part II]])

===Connections between the Colonial gods and Cylon god===

*The Temple of Five was built over 4,000 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], long before the Cylons existed. The [[Thirteenth Tribe]] would, logically, have no knowledge of these automatons in the strictest sense. However, the Thirteenth Tribe has significant prophetic insight, as shown in the works of [[Pythia]]. According to Colonial scriptures, "Five pillars of the temple were fashioned after the five priests devoted to the one whose name cannot be spoken". This may have been another Lord of Kobol, given that on a deleted scene [[Elosha]] noted that the fall of [[Kobol]] and its civilization was due in part to a "jealous god".

*On [[New Caprica]], D'Anna/Three meets [[Dodona Selloi]], a human [[oracle]], who relays a message from Three's God, despite the oracle's association with the Lords of Kobol.

*With this information, there is a strong, but unexplained correlation or connection with the the Cylon God and the Lords of Kobol.

the Judeo-christiam god "jahovah" is a name that is beleived in many monotheistic faiths as aname that is not t be spoken.--[[User:Mevenstar|Mevenstar]] 16:46, 31 March 2007 (CDT)

===The Eye of Jupiter and Kara Thrace===

*The Eye of Jupiter storyline introduced an association between Kara Thrace, a human that "doodled" a circular image as a child with no prior derivation (her old apartment on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] has a painting of the image from the episode, "[[Valley of Darkness]]"), and the mandalas or icons of the eye that decorated a temple built 4,000 years before her birth. No further information is revealed other than the prophecy from [[Leoben Conoy]], who told Thrace of an unexplained "destiny" ([[Flesh and Bone]]).

===Illusion or Truth===

*The threes hunt for and see visions of the Five, which leads to the other Cylons themselves [[boxing]] the entire line of Threes after her discovery, but whether this is done to suppress the notion or actual information of the final five or to relieve the other Cylons of an aberrant model is unclear.

*Later, in dream visions of the [[Opera House]] shared by [[Laura Roslin]], [[Sharon Agathon]] and [[Caprica Six]], the same 5 glowing figures seen by Three appear, along with the same chamber with six drapes, this time empty. Six sees them for a more prolonged period in a second vision.

*As the Temple of Five was apparently built for human usage, the Temple may have only allowed the transitional visions that the Threes see to be more persistent and clear. It may never be revealed what Baltar (or another human) would have seen. While Baltar believed Three and actively participated in her quest, both his virtual Six and a [[Hybrid]] noted that he, not D'Anna/Three, was intended to use the Temple's imaging mechanism as the "chosen one". The human association and significance of the five priests, the god they worshiped, and their connections with the Cylons, Kara Thrace and Baltar are not yet explained.

==Notes==

* The podcast for "[[Rapture]]" confirms that the final five Cylons have not been [[boxing|boxed]]<ref>{{cite_rdm_podcast|episode=Rapture|act=4|id=firstboxing|timestamp=41:47|totalrunning=}}</ref>.
* During a Q&A session on the official Sci Fi channel Battlestar Galactica forum Ronald D. Moore notes that he already knows who the last Cylon is, and that he's already left clues as to who it is<ref>[http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2270103&st=0&p=3041263&#entry3041263 20 Answers - SCI FI FORUMS] Retrieved 03-27-2007</ref>.

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Number One/Archive 1

2007-03-20T08:18:54Z

Mevenstar: /* "Keeper of Secrets" */

== Categories ==
This page doesn't have any categories. I don't wish to read the spoiler stuff, but if somebody could kindly sort it I'd appreciate it. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:31, 2 March 2006 (CST)
:Well, having stumbled into some spoiler-ish discussion on a talk page, I believe that categories on this page might end up being a spoiler themselves. I guess we can put categories on this once the cat is out of the proverbial bag. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:04, 3 March 2006 (CST)
:: We'll find out tonight, I guess. I'm looking forward to it. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:07, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Article name ==

I believe it should be Cavil, not Brother Cavil, same as it's Cally, not Specialist Cally.
:Yep. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:20, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Cylon? ==

Just from speculation based on the 'not at any of the cylon meetings' line, which is so similar to Six's line.

Also if he is a cylon he could be 'Number 1,' as that so far the lower the number the higher the age of the cylon. Perhaps that makes him the 'leader', that is, if cylon's have leaders in their 'society based on unity'.

Just a guess--[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 21:12, 7 March 2006 (CST)

: I doubt he is Number 1. Plus, as people keep on forgetting, Cylons only ''appear'' to age -- they don't actually grow up from infancy like humans do. They're made as old as they look (or as young as they look). Period. I wouldn't be surprised if he was Number 12, thus sinking the whole "model number sorted by age" thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:47, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::I agree, though I'll take it a step further and say that he is likely Number 12, and likely not Number 1. I think either we have not seen Number 1 yet in any form...or else Number 1 has been there from the beginning, and will be a big surprise for us. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 12:52, 17 March 2006 (CST)

::Do we know if both discovered models were named Cavil? Because that makes me suspicious that their discovery together wouldn't be accidental. And especially with how in agreement they were even after being separately for months (presumably). I don't trust their words, especially now that the Colony was subjugated. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 12:42, 13 March 2006 (CST)

:::As far as I know, there's no on screen evidence of Caprica Cavil being called Cavil directly. We just call him "Caprica Cavil" for the sake of discerning the two different copies of that model, since we only know that model by Cavil. Hope that isn't as confusing as it reads... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:09, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Cavil and Cylon Aging ==
Regardless of whether or not the claim about preaching longer than Tyrol has been "sucking down oxygen" is correct, Cavil's apparent age (approximately 70, going by Dean Stockwell's real age) gives us some hints about the maturation of Humano-Cylons. It would be very safe to assume that the Cylons haven't been at this for a whole 70 years--otherwise, agents would probably have been introduced into Colonial society during the ''first'' war, instead of waiting for the second, and Baltar and Adama and every other survivor wouldn't have been surprised by the fact that they "look like us." A Humano-Cylon body, pre-download, seems to be either a) generated from scratch and resembling a particular age the moment it's ready (an instant twenty-something Sharon, early thirties Six, and late sixties/early seventies Cavil), or b) Cylon genes can be temporarily tweaked to accelerate an aging process that is usually human normal. Either way, the Cylons don't seem to spend 20-plus years generating a new body. Master geneticists that they are, why would they have to wait? -- [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 22:28, 18 March 2006 (EST).

:I thought (a) was the clear implication of "Resurrection Ship, Part I" and "Downloaded" - new Cylon bodies come pre-aged. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:21, 18 March 2006 (CST)
::Those technically weren't new bodies. They are copies, not clones, remember? A "new" body is exactly duplicated from an old one. By definition all will be the same age. So any aging would take place simultaneously across the whole model. Also, Dean Stockwell is ~70 but Cavil can be younger.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:11, 18 March 2006 (EST)
:::Are you suggesting there's a stock supply of uninhabited Cylon bodies all aging simultaneously, a la Evangelion? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:54, 18 March 2006 (CST)
::::Er, yes. That is what the Resurrection Ship (and whatever they have on their homeworld) is. My point is that when they make a new uninhabited body it's A Copy, Not A Clone, and thus the same age as the body it was copied from.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:41, 18 March 2006 (EST)
:::::Every body in a Cylon model is the same. They are all twins, none is a clone of another. They are made in the resurrection Ship, that was visually implied by the whole stack of Sixes. The Cavils themeselves are proof that they are made the age they look. There are Cavils in pods looking exactly like they do. The "longer than.." comment was needed, he wouldn't say "I've been preaching for two years, since I'm a Cylon.." --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19 March 2006

I removed the statement claiming that the humanoid cylons possibly came into existence thirty years prior to the time period in the show was contradicted by other evidence. It misunderstood the point of the previous statement (which I originally submitted), which does not argue that the infiltration of the colonies began that far back. It only suggests that the humanoid cylons came into being thirty or more years prior to the time of the series assuming Cavil was telling the truth about preaching longer than Tyrol had been sucking down oxygen. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 23:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

How do we know Cylons even biologically age? They might have something that prevents that. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 18:37, 29 November 2006 (CST)

: Given that Cylon agents and humans are genetically alike, and since cells degrade over time, it would follow that Cylons are capable of aging. After all, life is the quirk that keeps the meat fresh, as it were. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:24, 30 November 2006 (CST)

::Not necessarily. Cylons are genetically engineered cyborgs. They might have been built to not age. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 13:57, 2 December 2006 (CST)

:::Indeed, though they are identical to the cellular level, at the molecular level they already start looking different, which leaves room for enough difference between their compositions to make everthing they do, and possibly lack of aging, possible. So it's a possibility that they do no age. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:06, 2 December 2006 (CST)

::::I just re-watched "The Eye of Jupiter," and noted that Cavil implied that he and his colleagues had functional immortality; that whether finding Earth took "5 years or 5000," they'd still be around when it was found. --[[User:Panopticon|Panopticon]] 21:17, 15 January 2007 (CST)

:::::Everything has, more or less, an end of life to it. Electronics break down too, though not in the same way humans do. Their immortality could easily occur via the downloading process. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:51, 15 January 2007 (CST)

== Cavil "Atheist" ==
It seems in their conversation that they came to a fairly Agnostic, not atheist, conclusion with the line "can't prove it one way or another." Thought? --posted by Xavier101
:No. Athiest. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:13, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

Could be either, but I'm leaning towards atheist. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:53, 27 June 2006 (CDT)
:They acknowledged it couldn't be proven but stated that they personally believe there is no God, thus they are atheists. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:34, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

Strictly speaking, a 'true' atheist denies the existence of a god or gods and does not concede the possibility that "we just don't know or can't prove it." An agnostic takes the position that we do not know or cannot prove it (presently), but often actually does have a basically atheistic outlook on the universe. My opinion is that, from a purely logical standpoint, Cavil's statements make him an agnostic with an atheistic outlook. Or, in other words, he would concede that he can't REALLY prove it one way or another, but would be willing to lay a substantial wager on the non-existence of god. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 13:15, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

:I think the fact that Cavil ''always'' used his hands to make quotation marks in the air ''each time'' he said "God" in "Occupation/Precipice" makes it far more likely that he's not at all on the same page as most of the other Cylons. Even undercover as a brother, he flat-out denies the concept. Perhaps more light will be shed in season 3. If a Cavil encounters [[Dodona Selloi]], it would do just that. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:37, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::You know, along the lines of not being on the same page as other Cylons...you remember that the various models of Cylon were having that discussion in Exodus Part I, and Cavil excused himself from the discussion, ostensibly because his input into it was unnecessary (if I recall correctly.) I interpreted that as Cavil essentially noting to the others that he is in disagreement as to fundamental courses of action with ALL of the other models present at the meeting. You get the same vibe? --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 20:01, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

Atheism doesn't deny the existence of a god or gods, atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god or gods. You're thinking of "strong" or "positive atheism" [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 01:32, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:That is one definition of the term 'atheism' to be sure, but its most common definition is indeed 'strong' atheism (as you have defined it), just as the most common definition of 'agnostic' implies lack of knowledge (or indeed, as a necessary consequence, a belief) as to same. Just what we mean by having a 'belief' is actually quite hard to define. But, at this point in the discussion, for purposes of probing Cavil's psyche, I think we are talking of distinctions without a difference. ;-) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 17:52, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Sleep Agent ==
Is Galactica Cavil a sleeper agent? I tend to think that he is because he seems to have a fake history and seems that sleepers tend defend themselves strongly when accused of being a cylon. Notice the difference betweem Galactica Cavil and Caprica Cavil in their responses to being accused. I know the Cylon Party comment does weaken the argument. Thoughts? --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 10:48, 26 June 2006 (CDT)
:He wasn't a sleeper Agent as far as we know, in fact the easiness with which he "resumed" his Cylon status indicated that he was aware. The Caprican Cavil accepted it pretty quickly because eventually he planned to tell them, it was why he was there after all. The other Cavil still had his original mission to remain in secret. I take it sleepers normally don't respond well to the whole "Hey, you're a Cylon!" thing, which may be why boxing was invented, and was why Boomer had cuffs when she resurrected. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 11:20 26 June 2006 (CDT)
::In the continuity of the Miniseries novelization, Doral is a sleeper agent and he is discussed in great detail. His realization was like "flipping a switch." I know that doesn't mean much for the series, but I don't think that it is always a hard as Boomer found it. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 11:45, 26 June 2006 (CDT)
I don't really think Cavil was a sleeper, because of how he acted with the Caprica copy. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:51, 6 August 2006 (CDT)

== Cavil and Caprica Six Revelations ==
I have a problem with the following statement: "They seem to have discovered many revelations that Caprica-Six realized through her "virtual" Baltar (Downloaded). Judging by this, the Cavil copies are probably among the first to flock to Caprica's banner." I think this amounts to pure speculation, and increasingly, bad speculation as we see that Cavil is (if anything) something of a general misanthrope. At any rate, I think there is no legitimate basis for concluding that Caprica Six and the Cavils share any particular insight or common viewpoint. Thoughts? --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 13:08, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

==Number Two?==
Hey, someone pointed out to me that it was edited on wikipedia[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylon_%28Battlestar_Galactica%29#Humanoid_Cylons] that Cavil's number is "Two" and that it was apparently revealed through close cationing. I'm not sure if this is canon, but if someone can tell me more info on this...

I'm assuming it's a mistake, and that whoever posted it confused the close captioning in LDYBII, when it says "Cavil#2" (to differentiate Cavils) and assumed it meant that was his model number, but I do not know.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:00, 24 October 2006 (CDT)

:I think that is, as you suspected, an error in captioning context. As well, I don't think that Cavil will sit well with being known as "number two." He's a dark fellow, will nuke your house, put you in front of a firing squad. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:14, 24 October 2006 (CDT)

::Amen, brother. But he won't nuke your house, he'll only reduce your family down to a more manageable number, say 2. But that is only after he puts you down with his pesimistic superiority and complains about a headache. {{unsigned|Straycat0}}

:::And it will be done to instill fear into the people's hearts and minds, because as he sees it, fear is a key article of faith. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:03, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Dean Stockwell said, in an interview, that he had been told he was number 2 --[[User:Genome4824|GMo >:M:<]] 21:52, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

:::::No, what he said was -

:::::'''''"I turned out to be number three, Brother Cavil, of the significant seven."'''''

:::::My guess is he meant that he was the third Cylon revealed (since the mini) because the position of "number three" is already occupied. And he's not number 2, that was a mistake on someone, the captioning is not referring to that.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:15, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

::'''"Number Two: This is three downloads for me."''' that is the quote from the Captioning for Exodus Part I. I believe that the Evidence he is #2 has been presented. If it saying that on Sci-Fi Channel itself can't be counted as Canon what can? -- [[User:Genome4824|GMo >:M:<]] 22:35, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, aside from the fact that my captions don't say that, it's still close captioning, which has proven unreliable before. We can't consider it canon unless revealed in some other manner in which we can be '''sure''' it's not a mistake. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:49, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Captions should be taken with a grain of salt, like the 54289/[[Viper 289]] caption from Flight of the Phoenix. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:22, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Agreed. Captions when there is two or more people that are the same, usually have #1 and #2. This is an error. Repated edits to indicate Cavil as number two will be considered vandlism under the [[BW:EW]] policy. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:37, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

: Can we all agree that it should be added to his page and the [[Portal:Cylons|Cylon Page]] under notes with a link to this discussion page. Not everyone goes right to the Discussion pages. -- [[User:Genome4824|GMo >:M:<]] 10:47, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

[[Rapture]] features additional (but unconclusive) evidence that Cavil may be Number Two:
*Cavil suggests boxing the Threes
*Cavil confronts and almost kills Three in an authoritarian fashion.
*When Three wants to see the Final Five, Cavil says "that can't happen". This could be because, with Number One among the Final Five, he wouldn't want to lose his 'leadership status' when Number One is revealed.
*It is Cavil who boxes the Threes. This may be because he came up with the idea in the first place, or because he represents whatever is left of the Cylons, making him either Two or Four.
It should be noted, however, that Cavil, despite his presumed leadership status, doesn't protest against the majority decision to attack and occupy the Colonies.
::Well, there really isn't any reason to believe their numbers have anything to do with authority, so for now we are still left with the myster of his number. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:56, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:::The model number has no relevance to authority, thats [[w:fanwank|fanwanking]], especially saying that the reason he doesnt want to know who number one is because he would then be second in command. The only evidence so far of the number designation is closed captions. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:32, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::::You are right in saying that it's never been confirmed the model numbers reflect authority. It's just an assumption on my part to even be able to speculate about Cavil's number, since throwing out the authority idea means all options are open and we can't really argue for any number, save for the closed captioning thing. On that count, I've [[Battlestar_Wiki:Official_Communiques#Cavil.27s_number|asked Bradley Thompson]] whether the closed captions are canonical. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:47, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Bradley Thompson has [[BW:OC#Cavil.27s_number|neither confirmed nor denied]] that Cavil is Number Two, but he did shoot down the closed captioning thing. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 14:48, 25 January 2007 (CST)

[[Number 1]]?
Here is some logic supporting that he is the earliest of the Cylons that has not been presented here:

*When Cavil is introduced he states that he has been a preacher longer than Tyrol has been breathing. this may suggest that he was the first of (this cycle's?) human-form Cylons. The opportunity is there for him to have been planted into the colonies well before any plan of invasion.
*He is entirely skeptical about the existence of the "One God", but first appears in the resident religion's garb. This would follow a logical step between the belief (by the primitive Cylons [Centurions]) that there are many gods and the Cylon "One God". This is parallel of the progression between Greek and Christian gods being the prevailing theology in western civilization (discounting Roman), which would have occured at the outset of the many new models.
*Caprica Cavil and BSG Cavil discuss the mistake of invading the colonies in the first place. This would suggest a very pragmatic sort of personality, which would be emblematic of a first-generation new model. The first model would not necessarily have yet "evolved" in their new programming of belief in "One God".
:: This personality is repeated throughout the New Caprica occupation and pursuit of Earth in such actions as decimating the human population to "manageable size", making sure the Eye is not destroyed and boxing 3.
:::That's really just the way his model act, but it doesn't tell us anything about their number. We don't know whether they were built at the same time or whether the numbers actually mean anything. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:47, 31 January 2007 (CST)
::::When you consider that [[Number Six]] was named as a homage to [[w:The Prisoner|The Prisoner]] i'd be very wary about giving meaning to the numbers. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:44, 31 January 2007 (CST)

==Main Image==
Hey, I have been thinking on Cavil's main image for a while, though I like the present one, I've been trying to find out perhaps new images that show him as looking more, I don't know, active or something, but I'm not sure. There are 3 candidates, including the current one, so what do you think.

Which of these is better as a main image?

<gallery>
Image:Cavilo.jpg|Picture 1
Image:Brotha.jpg|Picture 2
Image:Brotha3.jpg|Picture 3
</gallery>

Thank you for your opinions. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 00:01, 19 December 2006 (CST)

:2. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 12:45, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:Actually, I like the picture of the Executioner Cavil with the black hat in the article. Sadistic bastard he is, although 3 is OK. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:55, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:Ditto with Spenc. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:13, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::You mean the Promo from LDYBII? I actually edited one to fit in main image, Here it is:

::<gallery>
Image:-1Cavil.jpg|Picture4
</gallery>

::What do you think? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:31, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:::Nope. Try the one on the main article in the New Caprica Copy section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:08, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::::Hmm...well that was the old one, but I remember it looked a bit....odd. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:02, 19 December 2006 (CST)

<gallery>
Image:Pensieve One.jpg
</gallery>

With the recent airing of the S3 premiere on SkyOne HD, we have more options available. One in particular caught my eye(the one right above). What do you think about it? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 20:18, 15 January 2007 (CST)
:Thoughts? If you still prefer the promo from LDYBII, then we'll put that one, but I'm trying to find a shot of him that shows more of his features and such. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:12, 26 January 2007 (CST)

=="Keeper of Secrets"==
In the "Rapture" podcast, RDM said he liked the idea of Cavil being like a keeper of secrets for the Cylons, one who knew more than the others about the Final Five and such. The episode did give me that feel, and it seems to me like he had seriousley intended to give that impression. So I'm thinking, should we include it in the notes section or something? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:12, 26 January 2007 (CST)

Has RDM given any explantion about how Cavil just appears out of nowhere, first on Caprica in lay down your birdens, he just sort of ppaears outof nowhere spouting the cylons have gone home and everyone just accepts it. he wasn't a human that came with tyhe rescue team. Then in Rapture Deanna and Baltar go down to the planet alone, and there at the pivotal hour there he is with Deanna and Baltar when they first get intothe temple, then he's gone again when the "device" activates.

There is something very odd and evil about Cavil, his atheism sounds more like a speech from Lucifer discrediting god. Granted I am abit obsessed withthe relation bebtween the cylons, the lords of kobol and Abrehamic religions. The interplay is everywhere. I've notice this sight has jumped on the idea that the "jealous god" and the "one whose name cannot be spoken" are one and the same, and perhaos the Cylon God. Why would the human then have such reverence for the temple of Five and those five priests, if they were folowers of an evil god. If I'm not mistaken isn't the name
"Yahweh" or "Jahovah" sort of not supposed to be spoken?

My point being Cavil's synicism can no more be taken at face value than anything else in the series.--[[User:Mevenstar|Mevenstar]] 02:44, 22 February 2007 (CST)

*He doesn't appear out of nowhere. On Rapture he went down with Baltar and D'Anna and a Leoben (though the scene with them was deleted), on LDYBII it's not really surprising that he just found his way to the group, or maybe even had been with them for a while now. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 07:02, 22 February 2007 (CST)

*Furthermore, in LDYB, Starbuck&Co. would think Cavil was just another member of the resistance they hadn't met yet, while Anders&Co. would think he was part of the rescue party. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:31, 22 February 2007 (CST)

Are edited scenes 100% legit? I mean when Deanna was heading down to tthe algae planet it was clear she was acting alone, where was cavil when Deanna hasd the vision or when Six told Baltar she wasn't the chosen one?Anders thought he was part part of the rescue party and Starbuck thought he was part of the resistence?--[[User:Mevenstar|Mevenstar]] 03:18, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Cylon Religion/Archive 1

2007-02-22T09:09:33Z

Mevenstar: /* Different religous viewpoints per model? */

This should probably be merged with content from [[God]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:26, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:I concur and will likely begin such at some point today if it's not done before I come back to it. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 14:28, 30 December 2005 (EST)
::I agree --Zareck Rocks 18:59, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:I do not. The "God" page includes more materials and references for other things not strictly from the Cylon religion alone.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:24, 30 December 2005 (EST)

== Source for Polytheism Being Blashemeous ==
I know that "Cylons view the worship of multiple gods as blasphemeous against their God." is true. I believe it is specifically attested in [[33]], but I wanted to be sure before claiming such. Can anyone verify that or any other particular source? --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 14:27, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:[http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season01/112/mov/bsg_del_112_regret.mov Deleted scene], Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:34, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:Also noted as "false gods" by Sharon Valerii in [[Home, Part I]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:39, 30 December 2005 (EST)
::Part II, FWIW. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:05, 31 December 2005 (EST)

==Quote Collecting==
At present, I think the best thing to do here to ensure an accurate and well-cited entry is to scan episode transcripts for relevant comments and group them by topic and source, similar to the way we did [[Sacred Scrolls]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:47, 30 December 2005 (EST)

===Natasi===
Here's all Natasi had to tell us about God before her death:
<blockquote>Natasi: You know that's not really why I did it. 
Baltar: No, you did it because you love me. 
Natasi: That, and God wanted me to help you. 
Baltar: Right, He spoke to you, did he? You had a chat? 
Natasi: He didn't speak to me in a literal voice. And you don't have to mock my faith. 
Baltar: Sorry. I'm just not very religious. 
Natasi: Does it bother you that I am? 
Baltar: It puzzles me that an intelligent, attractive woman such as yourself should be taken in by all that mysticism and superstition, but I'm willing to overlook it on account of your other attributes.</blockquote>

===Baltar's Six===
From the Miniseries:
<blockquote>Baltar: That was your job? 
Six: Officially. Unofficially I had other motives. We had something, Gaius. Something special. 
Baltar: This is insane. 
Six: And what I want most of all is for you to love me. 
Baltar: Love you. 
Six: Of course, Gaius. Don't you understand? God is love.</blockquote>

===Conoy (Ragnar Anchorage Copy)===
From the Miniseries:
<blockquote>Conoy: I'm an observer of human nature. When you get right down to it, humanity is not a pretty race. I mean, we're only one step away from beating each other with clubs, like savages fighting over scraps of meat. Maybe the Cylons are God's retribution for our many sins. What if God decided he made a mistake, and he decided to give souls to another creature? Like the Cylons.</blockquote>

===Conoy (Gemenon Traveler Copy)===
From "Flesh and Bone":
<blockquote>Thrace: Sleeping? 
Conoy: Praying. 
Thrace: I don't think the gods answer the prayers of toasters. 
Conoy: God answers everyone's prayers.</blockquote>

<blockquote>Conoy: You believe in the gods, don't you? Lords of Kobol and all that? 
Thrace: Why should I tell you? 
Conoy: Come on, it's not a trick question. I just wanna see how much I got right. So you pray to Artemis and Aphrodite? 
Thrace: Where's the warhead? 
Conoy: I was right. See, our faiths are similar but I look to one god, not to many. 
Thrace: I don't give a damn what you believe. 
Conoy: To know the face of god is to know madness. I see the universe. I see the patterns. I see the foreshadowing that precedes every moment of every day. It's all there, I see it and you don't. And I have a surprise for you. I have something to tell you about the future. 
Thrace: Is that so? 
Conoy: It is. But we have to see this through to the end. What is the most basic article of faith? "This is not all that we are. "See, the difference between you and me is, I know what that means, and you don't. I know that I'm more than this body, more than this consciousness. A part of me swims in the stream but in truth, I'm standing on the shore the current never takes me downstream.</blockquote>

<blockquote>Thrace: But then I keep forgetting, you're not human. You're a machine. 
Conoy: I am more than you could ever imagine. I am God. 
Thrace: I'm sorry, you're God? Wow, nice to meet ya. That's good, that's good. We'll give you a couple of minutes for that. 
Conoy: It's funny, isn't it? We're all god, Starbuck, all of us. I see the love that binds all living things together. 
Thrace: Love? You don't even know what the word means. 
Conoy: I know that God loved you more than all other living creatures and you repaid his divine love with sin, with hate, corruption, evil. So then he decided to create the Cylons. 
Thrace: The gods had nothing to do with it. We created you. Us. It was a stupid, frakked-up decision and we have paid for it. You slaughtered my entire civilization! That is sin! That is evil, and you are evil. 
Leoben: Am I? I see the truths that float past you in the stream.</blockquote>

<blockquote>Conoy: All this has happened before, and all of it will happen again. 
Thrace: Don't quote scripture. You don't have the right to use those words. 
Conoy: You kneel before idols and ask for guidance and you can't see that your destiny's already been written. Each of us plays a role, each time a different role. Maybe the last time, I was the interrogator and you were the prisoner. The players change, the story remains the same. And this time... this time, your role is to deliver my soul unto God. Do it for me. It's your destiny, and mine. And I told you I had a surprise for you. Are you ready? You're gonna find Kobol. Birthplace of us all. Kobol will lead you to Earth. This is my gift to you, Kara.</blockquote>

===Valerii (Caprica Copy)===
From "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II":
<blockquote>Valerii: I don't know if you can hear this or not, Helo, but what we had between us was important. It was very important. 
Agathon: Why? 
Valerii: Because it was the next step. Because it brings us closer to god. 
Agathon: Don't mock the gods, okay? It's a human belief, I'm human, they're our gods. </blockquote>

From "The Farm":
<blockquote>Valerii: Procreation. It’s one of God’s commandments: "be fruitful". We can’t fulfill it we tried so we decided to—
Thrace: To rape human women? 
Valerii: No if you agreed to bear a children it’d be voluntary maybe even set you up with someone you like. 
Thrace: Like you two kids? 
Valerii: We’re different. 
Thrace: What the frak is that suppose to mean? 
Agathon: They have this theory maybe the one thing they were missing was love. So Sharon and I— we were set up to— 
Thrace: To fall in love? They didn’t ask Sue-Shaun if she wanted to fall in love, right? They put a tube in her, and they hooked her up into a machine! 
Valerii: They know who you are, Kara. You’re special. Leoben told you that. You have a destiny.</blockquote>

From "Home, Part II":
<blockquote>Valerii: Eleven O'Clock. Twenty degrees elevation. There's a formation of twin rocks up ahead. 
Agathon: Yeah, I've got it. 
Valerii: I think those are the Gates of Hera. 
Thrace: You think? 
Valerii: I'm putting together a lot of pieces from a lot of sources beyond your scriptures. If I'm right, that's the spot where your god supposedly stood and watched Athena throw herself down o nto the rocks below out of despair over the exodus of the 13 tribes. 
Zarek: Supposedly? I thought the Cylons believed in the gods. 
Thrace: Yeah, don't get her started. They believe in one true God or something like that. 
Valerii: And we don't worship false idols. 
Lee Adama: You were quick enough to come on this mission. Lead us all to some tomb only actually mentioned in our false scriptures. 
Valerii: We know more about your religion than you do. Athena's Tomb, whoever, and whatever she really was is probably up there. That part is true. </blockquote>

===Caprica Cylons===
From "Bastille Day":
<blockquote>Doral: They would have destroyed themselves, anyway. They deserve what they got. 
Six: We're the children of humanity; that makes them our parents, in a sense. 
Doral: True. But parents have to die. It's the only way children come into their own.</blockquote>

From "Final Cut":
<blockquote>Valerii: I'm still alive. She's still alive. I told you. 
Six: That's incredible. And the baby? 
Biers: It was saved. We lost two raiders relaying the images back to the fleet, but I think the sacrifice was worth it. 
Doral: We must proceed with caution. The child's life must be protected at all costs. 
Biers: Yeah. Truly is a miracle from God. </blockquote>

==Conclusions==
I have deliberately left Baltar's six out of the quote collection above, since the actual nature of her identity is highly debateable. Given their context, all the quotes above should be largely trustworthy, with the exception of the two Conoy, which must be taken with a grain of salt. I think that we can safely conclude the following:

#The Cylons believe in a single God. (numerous refs)
#They have access to a broader set of documents and scripture than the Colonials. (Valerii, Home pt. II)
#They acknowlege the historical existance of the Lords of Kobol. (Valerii, Home pt. II)
#They consider worship of these other gods to be misguided at best; blasphemous at worst. (Conoy, Flesh and Bone; Valerii, Home pt. II)
#They believe themselves to be the legitimate successors to humanity within God's plan. (Conoy, miniseries; Doral, Bastille Day; Conoy, Flesh and Bone)
#They share the Colonials' belief in the Cycle of Time. (Conoy, Flesh and Bone)
#They believe sexual procreation is a divine imperative. (Valerii, The Farm)
#They suspect that love is necessary to accomplish the former. (Valerii, The Farm)

Additionally, we can tentatively conclude the following, if we're willing to trust some of Conoy's comments:
#They engage in prayer, which implies belief that their God can be consulted or appealed to. (Conoy, Flesh and Bone)
#They have an somewhat opaque ontology, expressed by Conoy's "stream".

Other points to consider:
#Natasi denies that God spoke to her in a "literal voice".
#

===Questions raised===
*If the Cylons have access to more historical documents than the Colonials, they must have received them from a third party. Who?

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:03, 1 January 2006 (EST)

: Perhaps they wrote their own? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 22:00, 1 January 2006 (EST)
::I do not believe that at any time during "Home, Part II" we ever heard the Cylons say that they "have access to a broader set of documents and scripture than the Colonials". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:50, 1 January 2006 (EST)
:::Boomer: "I'm putting together a lot of pieces from a lot of sources beyond your scriptures." --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:29, 2 January 2006 (EST)
::::It's also possible that she was simply referring to historical evidence available to the Colonials but ignored by the more religious of them (a situation similar to many fundamentalists of today). --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 10:53, 2 January 2006 (EST)
:::::Fair point. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:46, 2 January 2006 (EST)
::Further, they do not "have a somewhat opaque ontology"; just because someone didn't understand what he was saying doesn't make it "opaque"; what Leoben was saying were in fact Gnostic and/or vaguely Buddhist ideas, etc. And remember, the Cylons believe that "God is love". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:50, 1 January 2006 (EST)
:::If you can explain Leoben's stream-imagery to me in terms of Gnostic and/or Buddhist ideas, I would be delighted. I find them impenetrable. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:31, 2 January 2006 (EST)

== Why couldn't they just mass-produce? ==

I think the Cylons were a bit stupid if they thought they could only reproduce biologicaly. They're robots, so why didn't they just decided to follow the 'be fruitful and mutiply' commandment by just mass-producing themselves using factories? That would fufill that commandment very well. And why do they have a reilgon in the first place? That's not very robot-like. Surely industrial production could too count as a form of reproduction? I can't see the logic behind this.
: They mimic human form -- and thus everything about it, right down to how we reproduce -- because they believe that it will bring them closer to their God. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 10:59, 6 March 2006 (CST)
::"Not very robot-like"? Anything that gains a high enough level of sentience will ponder such questions as the existence of the soul and life after death. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:07, 6 March 2006 (CST)

==Historical Comparison==

The Merovingian removed this passage: "One observer can easily compare the religious conflict between the Colonials and the Cylons to the rise and spread of Christianity and Judaism in Europe during the final days of the [[Wikipedia: Roman Empire | Roman Empire]] and the dethronement of the religious beliefs the Greeks and the Romans believed in." because he felt it was a bit too POV. I don't agree, though it could certainly use cleaning-up grammatically speaking. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:13, 10 April 2006 (EST)

:In my opinion, it's not that it's POV; it's just a very poor analogy. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:36, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

::I think it should be removed, because it is a POV poor analogy. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:14, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

== View of Humanity ==
The view of humanity stuff needs to be cited (obviously I know where it came from, and it is mentioned in edit summary, but it needs to be in the article). Also, it's missing the later parts about "Maybe we were wrong about that", and the co-existing, and then the Earth quest. Just leaving the parts about killing the humans off is an incomplete picture. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:44, 9 November 2006 (CST)

Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies.

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to
suggest that the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the
Cylons. They are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than
Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans. So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord
or at the very least evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for
enlightenment, in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to
refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness
perhaps even conciousness of the lords in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the
lords. The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see
developing in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious
leader in the original series has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his
fellow cylons to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And
yet, strangely, he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother
cylons, something you would expect of an Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in
heaven, he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a
member of a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself
(greek gods), how satanic might he appear? An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satan's flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rule in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in
hell. So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica/ Aphrodite, Sharon
Athena and Deanna/Hestia(?). Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?

Adama and Laura as Zeus and Hera? Two reason for two of the final five to stay
where they are. They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the
flow, well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of
Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and
wonderful in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge
advances by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of
Stargate or the Vorlons of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with
higher beings in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty
realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a
new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a
metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end
sounds far more believeable than actual gods and godesses co-existing with man.

==Different religous viewpoints per model?==
Ok we know the Cavil models are atheist. We know Sixes are particularly devout. Three's seem to question their faith. Leoben makes comments like we are all god (gnosticism?). I think Boomer implied Simon (or was it Doral) couldn't bear to speak God's name. I think none of the models actually agree on what their god is. Cavil's are cynical, Simon's are empirical, Sixes are zealots, Leoben's are into mysticism or some such, Three's seemed to be in spiritual turmoil. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 25 January 2007.

Cavil, his atheism sounds more like a speech from Lucifer discrediting god. The idea that the "jealous god" and the "one whose name cannot be spoken" are one and the same, and perhaps the Cylon God is a fun line to pursue. Why would the human then have such reverence for the temple of Five and those five priests, if they were followers of a fallen go? If I'm not mistaken isn't the name "Yahweh" or "Jahovah" sort of not supposed to be spoken?

I'm of the faith we have 10 cylon models that represent these archetypes of humanity, aka the gods or Lords of Kobol. Makes perfect sense for the colonies gods to be archetypes as well. You see that all the time in mythology. But in the series the two "top spots" of this a-typical archetype pantheon have human avatars Zeus/Adama and Laura/Hera. So the two leading cylon positions are based on judeo christian "super powers" that they would call God and Satan. And if that is the case...then Cavil, as #2, is number two, to you know who.

Different religious view points are hitting you from every possible angle on this show.
Now Has anyone taken to to the worship of RDM I wonder?

Talk:Number One/Archive 1

2007-02-22T08:44:32Z

Mevenstar: /* "Keeper of Secrets" */

== Categories ==
This page doesn't have any categories. I don't wish to read the spoiler stuff, but if somebody could kindly sort it I'd appreciate it. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:31, 2 March 2006 (CST)
:Well, having stumbled into some spoiler-ish discussion on a talk page, I believe that categories on this page might end up being a spoiler themselves. I guess we can put categories on this once the cat is out of the proverbial bag. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:04, 3 March 2006 (CST)
:: We'll find out tonight, I guess. I'm looking forward to it. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:07, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Article name ==

I believe it should be Cavil, not Brother Cavil, same as it's Cally, not Specialist Cally.
:Yep. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:20, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Cylon? ==

Just from speculation based on the 'not at any of the cylon meetings' line, which is so similar to Six's line.

Also if he is a cylon he could be 'Number 1,' as that so far the lower the number the higher the age of the cylon. Perhaps that makes him the 'leader', that is, if cylon's have leaders in their 'society based on unity'.

Just a guess--[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 21:12, 7 March 2006 (CST)

: I doubt he is Number 1. Plus, as people keep on forgetting, Cylons only ''appear'' to age -- they don't actually grow up from infancy like humans do. They're made as old as they look (or as young as they look). Period. I wouldn't be surprised if he was Number 12, thus sinking the whole "model number sorted by age" thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:47, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::I agree, though I'll take it a step further and say that he is likely Number 12, and likely not Number 1. I think either we have not seen Number 1 yet in any form...or else Number 1 has been there from the beginning, and will be a big surprise for us. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 12:52, 17 March 2006 (CST)

::Do we know if both discovered models were named Cavil? Because that makes me suspicious that their discovery together wouldn't be accidental. And especially with how in agreement they were even after being separately for months (presumably). I don't trust their words, especially now that the Colony was subjugated. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 12:42, 13 March 2006 (CST)

:::As far as I know, there's no on screen evidence of Caprica Cavil being called Cavil directly. We just call him "Caprica Cavil" for the sake of discerning the two different copies of that model, since we only know that model by Cavil. Hope that isn't as confusing as it reads... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:09, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Cavil and Cylon Aging ==
Regardless of whether or not the claim about preaching longer than Tyrol has been "sucking down oxygen" is correct, Cavil's apparent age (approximately 70, going by Dean Stockwell's real age) gives us some hints about the maturation of Humano-Cylons. It would be very safe to assume that the Cylons haven't been at this for a whole 70 years--otherwise, agents would probably have been introduced into Colonial society during the ''first'' war, instead of waiting for the second, and Baltar and Adama and every other survivor wouldn't have been surprised by the fact that they "look like us." A Humano-Cylon body, pre-download, seems to be either a) generated from scratch and resembling a particular age the moment it's ready (an instant twenty-something Sharon, early thirties Six, and late sixties/early seventies Cavil), or b) Cylon genes can be temporarily tweaked to accelerate an aging process that is usually human normal. Either way, the Cylons don't seem to spend 20-plus years generating a new body. Master geneticists that they are, why would they have to wait? -- [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 22:28, 18 March 2006 (EST).

:I thought (a) was the clear implication of "Resurrection Ship, Part I" and "Downloaded" - new Cylon bodies come pre-aged. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:21, 18 March 2006 (CST)
::Those technically weren't new bodies. They are copies, not clones, remember? A "new" body is exactly duplicated from an old one. By definition all will be the same age. So any aging would take place simultaneously across the whole model. Also, Dean Stockwell is ~70 but Cavil can be younger.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:11, 18 March 2006 (EST)
:::Are you suggesting there's a stock supply of uninhabited Cylon bodies all aging simultaneously, a la Evangelion? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:54, 18 March 2006 (CST)
::::Er, yes. That is what the Resurrection Ship (and whatever they have on their homeworld) is. My point is that when they make a new uninhabited body it's A Copy, Not A Clone, and thus the same age as the body it was copied from.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:41, 18 March 2006 (EST)
:::::Every body in a Cylon model is the same. They are all twins, none is a clone of another. They are made in the resurrection Ship, that was visually implied by the whole stack of Sixes. The Cavils themeselves are proof that they are made the age they look. There are Cavils in pods looking exactly like they do. The "longer than.." comment was needed, he wouldn't say "I've been preaching for two years, since I'm a Cylon.." --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19 March 2006

I removed the statement claiming that the humanoid cylons possibly came into existence thirty years prior to the time period in the show was contradicted by other evidence. It misunderstood the point of the previous statement (which I originally submitted), which does not argue that the infiltration of the colonies began that far back. It only suggests that the humanoid cylons came into being thirty or more years prior to the time of the series assuming Cavil was telling the truth about preaching longer than Tyrol had been sucking down oxygen. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 23:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

How do we know Cylons even biologically age? They might have something that prevents that. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 18:37, 29 November 2006 (CST)

: Given that Cylon agents and humans are genetically alike, and since cells degrade over time, it would follow that Cylons are capable of aging. After all, life is the quirk that keeps the meat fresh, as it were. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:24, 30 November 2006 (CST)

::Not necessarily. Cylons are genetically engineered cyborgs. They might have been built to not age. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 13:57, 2 December 2006 (CST)

:::Indeed, though they are identical to the cellular level, at the molecular level they already start looking different, which leaves room for enough difference between their compositions to make everthing they do, and possibly lack of aging, possible. So it's a possibility that they do no age. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:06, 2 December 2006 (CST)

::::I just re-watched "The Eye of Jupiter," and noted that Cavil implied that he and his colleagues had functional immortality; that whether finding Earth took "5 years or 5000," they'd still be around when it was found. --[[User:Panopticon|Panopticon]] 21:17, 15 January 2007 (CST)

:::::Everything has, more or less, an end of life to it. Electronics break down too, though not in the same way humans do. Their immortality could easily occur via the downloading process. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:51, 15 January 2007 (CST)

== Cavil "Atheist" ==
It seems in their conversation that they came to a fairly Agnostic, not atheist, conclusion with the line "can't prove it one way or another." Thought? --posted by Xavier101
:No. Athiest. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:13, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

Could be either, but I'm leaning towards atheist. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:53, 27 June 2006 (CDT)
:They acknowledged it couldn't be proven but stated that they personally believe there is no God, thus they are atheists. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:34, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

Strictly speaking, a 'true' atheist denies the existence of a god or gods and does not concede the possibility that "we just don't know or can't prove it." An agnostic takes the position that we do not know or cannot prove it (presently), but often actually does have a basically atheistic outlook on the universe. My opinion is that, from a purely logical standpoint, Cavil's statements make him an agnostic with an atheistic outlook. Or, in other words, he would concede that he can't REALLY prove it one way or another, but would be willing to lay a substantial wager on the non-existence of god. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 13:15, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

:I think the fact that Cavil ''always'' used his hands to make quotation marks in the air ''each time'' he said "God" in "Occupation/Precipice" makes it far more likely that he's not at all on the same page as most of the other Cylons. Even undercover as a brother, he flat-out denies the concept. Perhaps more light will be shed in season 3. If a Cavil encounters [[Dodona Selloi]], it would do just that. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:37, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::You know, along the lines of not being on the same page as other Cylons...you remember that the various models of Cylon were having that discussion in Exodus Part I, and Cavil excused himself from the discussion, ostensibly because his input into it was unnecessary (if I recall correctly.) I interpreted that as Cavil essentially noting to the others that he is in disagreement as to fundamental courses of action with ALL of the other models present at the meeting. You get the same vibe? --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 20:01, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

Atheism doesn't deny the existence of a god or gods, atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god or gods. You're thinking of "strong" or "positive atheism" [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 01:32, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:That is one definition of the term 'atheism' to be sure, but its most common definition is indeed 'strong' atheism (as you have defined it), just as the most common definition of 'agnostic' implies lack of knowledge (or indeed, as a necessary consequence, a belief) as to same. Just what we mean by having a 'belief' is actually quite hard to define. But, at this point in the discussion, for purposes of probing Cavil's psyche, I think we are talking of distinctions without a difference. ;-) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 17:52, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Sleep Agent ==
Is Galactica Cavil a sleeper agent? I tend to think that he is because he seems to have a fake history and seems that sleepers tend defend themselves strongly when accused of being a cylon. Notice the difference betweem Galactica Cavil and Caprica Cavil in their responses to being accused. I know the Cylon Party comment does weaken the argument. Thoughts? --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 10:48, 26 June 2006 (CDT)
:He wasn't a sleeper Agent as far as we know, in fact the easiness with which he "resumed" his Cylon status indicated that he was aware. The Caprican Cavil accepted it pretty quickly because eventually he planned to tell them, it was why he was there after all. The other Cavil still had his original mission to remain in secret. I take it sleepers normally don't respond well to the whole "Hey, you're a Cylon!" thing, which may be why boxing was invented, and was why Boomer had cuffs when she resurrected. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 11:20 26 June 2006 (CDT)
::In the continuity of the Miniseries novelization, Doral is a sleeper agent and he is discussed in great detail. His realization was like "flipping a switch." I know that doesn't mean much for the series, but I don't think that it is always a hard as Boomer found it. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 11:45, 26 June 2006 (CDT)
I don't really think Cavil was a sleeper, because of how he acted with the Caprica copy. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:51, 6 August 2006 (CDT)

== Cavil and Caprica Six Revelations ==
I have a problem with the following statement: "They seem to have discovered many revelations that Caprica-Six realized through her "virtual" Baltar (Downloaded). Judging by this, the Cavil copies are probably among the first to flock to Caprica's banner." I think this amounts to pure speculation, and increasingly, bad speculation as we see that Cavil is (if anything) something of a general misanthrope. At any rate, I think there is no legitimate basis for concluding that Caprica Six and the Cavils share any particular insight or common viewpoint. Thoughts? --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 13:08, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

==Number Two?==
Hey, someone pointed out to me that it was edited on wikipedia[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylon_%28Battlestar_Galactica%29#Humanoid_Cylons] that Cavil's number is "Two" and that it was apparently revealed through close cationing. I'm not sure if this is canon, but if someone can tell me more info on this...

I'm assuming it's a mistake, and that whoever posted it confused the close captioning in LDYBII, when it says "Cavil#2" (to differentiate Cavils) and assumed it meant that was his model number, but I do not know.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:00, 24 October 2006 (CDT)

:I think that is, as you suspected, an error in captioning context. As well, I don't think that Cavil will sit well with being known as "number two." He's a dark fellow, will nuke your house, put you in front of a firing squad. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:14, 24 October 2006 (CDT)

::Amen, brother. But he won't nuke your house, he'll only reduce your family down to a more manageable number, say 2. But that is only after he puts you down with his pesimistic superiority and complains about a headache. {{unsigned|Straycat0}}

:::And it will be done to instill fear into the people's hearts and minds, because as he sees it, fear is a key article of faith. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:03, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Dean Stockwell said, in an interview, that he had been told he was number 2 --[[User:Genome4824|GMo >:M:<]] 21:52, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

:::::No, what he said was -

:::::'''''"I turned out to be number three, Brother Cavil, of the significant seven."'''''

:::::My guess is he meant that he was the third Cylon revealed (since the mini) because the position of "number three" is already occupied. And he's not number 2, that was a mistake on someone, the captioning is not referring to that.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:15, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

::'''"Number Two: This is three downloads for me."''' that is the quote from the Captioning for Exodus Part I. I believe that the Evidence he is #2 has been presented. If it saying that on Sci-Fi Channel itself can't be counted as Canon what can? -- [[User:Genome4824|GMo >:M:<]] 22:35, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, aside from the fact that my captions don't say that, it's still close captioning, which has proven unreliable before. We can't consider it canon unless revealed in some other manner in which we can be '''sure''' it's not a mistake. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:49, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Captions should be taken with a grain of salt, like the 54289/[[Viper 289]] caption from Flight of the Phoenix. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:22, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Agreed. Captions when there is two or more people that are the same, usually have #1 and #2. This is an error. Repated edits to indicate Cavil as number two will be considered vandlism under the [[BW:EW]] policy. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:37, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

: Can we all agree that it should be added to his page and the [[Portal:Cylons|Cylon Page]] under notes with a link to this discussion page. Not everyone goes right to the Discussion pages. -- [[User:Genome4824|GMo >:M:<]] 10:47, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

[[Rapture]] features additional (but unconclusive) evidence that Cavil may be Number Two:
*Cavil suggests boxing the Threes
*Cavil confronts and almost kills Three in an authoritarian fashion.
*When Three wants to see the Final Five, Cavil says "that can't happen". This could be because, with Number One among the Final Five, he wouldn't want to lose his 'leadership status' when Number One is revealed.
*It is Cavil who boxes the Threes. This may be because he came up with the idea in the first place, or because he represents whatever is left of the Cylons, making him either Two or Four.
It should be noted, however, that Cavil, despite his presumed leadership status, doesn't protest against the majority decision to attack and occupy the Colonies.
::Well, there really isn't any reason to believe their numbers have anything to do with authority, so for now we are still left with the myster of his number. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:56, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:::The model number has no relevance to authority, thats [[w:fanwank|fanwanking]], especially saying that the reason he doesnt want to know who number one is because he would then be second in command. The only evidence so far of the number designation is closed captions. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:32, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::::You are right in saying that it's never been confirmed the model numbers reflect authority. It's just an assumption on my part to even be able to speculate about Cavil's number, since throwing out the authority idea means all options are open and we can't really argue for any number, save for the closed captioning thing. On that count, I've [[Battlestar_Wiki:Official_Communiques#Cavil.27s_number|asked Bradley Thompson]] whether the closed captions are canonical. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:47, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Bradley Thompson has [[BW:OC#Cavil.27s_number|neither confirmed nor denied]] that Cavil is Number Two, but he did shoot down the closed captioning thing. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 14:48, 25 January 2007 (CST)

[[Number 1]]?
Here is some logic supporting that he is the earliest of the Cylons that has not been presented here:

*When Cavil is introduced he states that he has been a preacher longer than Tyrol has been breathing. this may suggest that he was the first of (this cycle's?) human-form Cylons. The opportunity is there for him to have been planted into the colonies well before any plan of invasion.
*He is entirely skeptical about the existence of the "One God", but first appears in the resident religion's garb. This would follow a logical step between the belief (by the primitive Cylons [Centurions]) that there are many gods and the Cylon "One God". This is parallel of the progression between Greek and Christian gods being the prevailing theology in western civilization (discounting Roman), which would have occured at the outset of the many new models.
*Caprica Cavil and BSG Cavil discuss the mistake of invading the colonies in the first place. This would suggest a very pragmatic sort of personality, which would be emblematic of a first-generation new model. The first model would not necessarily have yet "evolved" in their new programming of belief in "One God".
:: This personality is repeated throughout the New Caprica occupation and pursuit of Earth in such actions as decimating the human population to "manageable size", making sure the Eye is not destroyed and boxing 3.
:::That's really just the way his model act, but it doesn't tell us anything about their number. We don't know whether they were built at the same time or whether the numbers actually mean anything. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:47, 31 January 2007 (CST)
::::When you consider that [[Number Six]] was named as a homage to [[w:The Prisoner|The Prisoner]] i'd be very wary about giving meaning to the numbers. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:44, 31 January 2007 (CST)

==Main Image==
Hey, I have been thinking on Cavil's main image for a while, though I like the present one, I've been trying to find out perhaps new images that show him as looking more, I don't know, active or something, but I'm not sure. There are 3 candidates, including the current one, so what do you think.

Which of these is better as a main image?

<gallery>
Image:Cavilo.jpg|Picture 1
Image:Brotha.jpg|Picture 2
Image:Brotha3.jpg|Picture 3
</gallery>

Thank you for your opinions. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 00:01, 19 December 2006 (CST)

:2. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 12:45, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:Actually, I like the picture of the Executioner Cavil with the black hat in the article. Sadistic bastard he is, although 3 is OK. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:55, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:Ditto with Spenc. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:13, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::You mean the Promo from LDYBII? I actually edited one to fit in main image, Here it is:

::<gallery>
Image:-1Cavil.jpg|Picture4
</gallery>

::What do you think? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:31, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:::Nope. Try the one on the main article in the New Caprica Copy section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:08, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::::Hmm...well that was the old one, but I remember it looked a bit....odd. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:02, 19 December 2006 (CST)

<gallery>
Image:Pensieve One.jpg
</gallery>

With the recent airing of the S3 premiere on SkyOne HD, we have more options available. One in particular caught my eye(the one right above). What do you think about it? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 20:18, 15 January 2007 (CST)
:Thoughts? If you still prefer the promo from LDYBII, then we'll put that one, but I'm trying to find a shot of him that shows more of his features and such. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:12, 26 January 2007 (CST)

=="Keeper of Secrets"==
In the "Rapture" podcast, RDM said he liked the idea of Cavil being like a keeper of secrets for the Cylons, one who knew more than the others about the Final Five and such. The episode did give me that feel, and it seems to me like he had seriousley intended to give that impression. So I'm thinking, should we include it in the notes section or something? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:12, 26 January 2007 (CST)

Has RDM given any explantion about how Cavil just appears out of nowhere, first on Caprica in lay down your birdens, he just sort of ppaears outof nowhere spouting the cylons have gone home and everyone just accepts it. he wasn't a human that came with tyhe rescue team. Then in Rapture Deanna and Baltar go down to the planet alone, and there at the pivotal hour there he is with Deanna and Baltar when they first get intothe temple, then he's gone again when the "device" activates.

There is something very odd and evil about Cavil, his atheism sounds more like a speech from Lucifer discrediting god. Granted I am abit obsessed withthe relation bebtween the cylons, the lords of kobol and Abrehamic religions. The interplay is everywhere. I've notice this sight has jumped on the idea that the "jealous god" and the "one whose name cannot be spoken" are one and the same, and perhaos the Cylon God. Why would the human then have such reverence for the temple of Five and those five priests, if they were folowers of an evil god. If I'm not mistaken isn't the name
"Yahweh" or "Jahovah" sort of not supposed to be spoken?

My point being Cavil's synicism can no more be taken at face value than anything else in the series.--[[User:Mevenstar|Mevenstar]] 02:44, 22 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:Taking a Break From All Your Worries/Archive 1

2007-01-31T02:15:15Z

Mevenstar: /* Mary McDonnell */

Perhaps this episode will deal with Lee Adama's promise to build a bar for the pilots? [[User:Bochawa|bochawa]] 08:47, 12 August 2006 (CDT)Bochawa
:Then that would call for a cameo by Ted Danson. [[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 15:07, 13 August 2006 (PDT)
:: I rather have "Norm" show up. "It's a dog eat dog world, and I'm wearing milkbone underwear." --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 12:32, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

I'm glad to see EJO directing another episode. I loved Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:10, 5 October 2006 (CDT)

==Promo Pics==
Can be found [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/gallery/000a3qwe here]. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:04, 7 January 2007 (CST)
:Looks like many of the scenes are in a '''bar'''. ''Ha!'' --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:42, 18 January 2007 (CST)
::Thoughts on the promo pics of Baltar in the Resurrection Tank? Dream? Real? Baltar going off in his own little world again?--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 21:41, 26 January 2007 (CST)
:::RDM said in an interview it was a dream or fantasy sequence --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::::Note the dead surrounding him. Yep, unless zombies are a new Cylon menace or Colonial weapon, I'd say fantasy. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:59, 27 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Missed the Podcast...thanks Merciful. Maybe the Final Five are all zombies?! :)--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 17:31, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::::::ZOMBIES! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:59, 27 January 2007 (CST)
:::::::You rang? --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:47, 30 January 2007 (CST)
:::::There's been some discussion about whether the Final Five are [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Final_five mutilated]. Reminded me of that. Maybe it means something, maybe it's an in-joke, maybe they're zombies. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:16, 30 January 2007 (CST)
::::::That's exactly what I thought of when I saw that scene. -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 06:39, 30 January 2007 (CST)

==Podcast Question==

So, these things involving Joe's Bar, Layne, and Sagitarrons, were they ideas proposed for the episode that got dropped in the writing phase, or did they film these scenes and they got cut? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:51, 29 January 2007 (CST)

:I think most was dropped during rewrites before it was shot, but as you see there are some pieces of it left, that still work. For example Ishay is obviously shocked at what they do. Though if I recall correctly, the Sagittaron thing could become part of Baltar's trial later. I'd have to listen to it again. But so could you ;) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:00, 29 January 2007 (CST)

== Baltar = Saddam ==

That was my character and visual connection.

Just a few other personal observations... The writing is hitting a new level. The last couple have seemed more sophisticated to me. One reason might be that the writers are catching the characters up on all the facts that the viewers have known for some time. The humans don't come off quite as clueless as they used to. Also, I assume that drastic time jumps are usually avoided due to fear that the viewer won't be able to keep up, but I've noticed that this episode skips over long exposition to get to the torture scenes and the finale of Rapture, the "rescue" from the planet's surface and the supernova, was all montage -- totally unusual but consistent with the stronger focus on characters.

:I don't see it. The closest historical parallel I'm aware of is [[Wikipedia:Philippe Pétain|Philippe Pétain]]. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:26, 29 January 2007 (CST)
::I just meant the look mostly, and the victim mentality. I wasn't making a historical comparison.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:04, 30 January 2007 (CST)
:::Visually, he sort of reminds me of The Falconer from SNL. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:39, 30 January 2007 (CST)
::::I think he's going for a Jesus look, to visually parallel the character's internal belief in his role as a Messianic figure. It should also be noted that James Callis usually wears a beard in the off-seasons. He can be seen with one in the pre-season one Lowdown, when he's hanging out with Jamie Bamber in London. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:36, 30 January 2007 (CST)

==Mary McDonnell==

Did anyone else just absolutely ''love'' her performance in this episode? Especially the "COLONEL TIGH, GET IN HERE!" part :D -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 23:42, 29 January 2007 (CST)
:She was frakkin scary. :) --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:05, 30 January 2007 (CST)
::We have NEVER seen her yell like that. I realized she and Tigh were playing the "bad cop, evil cop" scenario, knowing that this is not her normal thing. And I've never seen the characters so dark. She looked like she was practically ''orgasmic'' when Adama suggested the use of drugs on Baltar --and that he had a stash of the stuff. Wild and crazy acting. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:27, 30 January 2007 (CST)
:::Yet, we also see that it took a lot out of her. She's probably needed a good, cathartic screaming match for a very long time, but catharsis is an emotionally-exhausting experience. At the same time, she feels like she went through all of that for nothing, she failed. So, when Adama mentions a possible second option, she's filled with a new hope. Those subtle moments are what makes this show so great; look at the exchange of looks between Ellen and Saul as Saul realizes that Ellen knows the drink is poisoned. Absolutely brilliant. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:51, 30 January 2007 (CST)
:McDonnell's performance in this episode came as a total surprise to me, since we're used to a calm Roslin who prefers the carrot over the stick, so to say. This episode showed a totally different Roslin, which McDonnell played magnificently. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:53, 30 January 2007 (CST)
I totally agree I just keep watching that scene over and over. "Col Tigh get in here," it's a great stress releaver.--[[User:Mevenstar|Mevenstar]] 20:15, 30 January 2007 (CST)mevenstar

== Booze Supply ==

Given the shortages of damn near everything else, alcohol certainly seems to be in generous supply. I'll grant that they had plenty of time to brew (and the natural resources to do so) while on New Caprica, and that heavy drinking seems to be the post-Holocaust pastime of choice. I'd really like to see the show exploring where the Fleet is getting its supplies from, though. Maybe there's a brewmaster out in the civilians who didn't have the time or resources to put his skills to use until New Caprica. Maybe Tyrol inspired a few dozen crew members to operate distilleries of their own. All I really know is that booze flows like water on ''Galactica'' and I'd like to hoist a shot at Joe's. Let's just hope that Viper chassis doesn't come loose during a battle. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:53, 30 January 2007 (CST)
:If you can eat, you can ''ferment'' what you eat, thus the alcohol supply. You can metabolize alcohol, which was likely the last rations that some might have touched in the food shortage. What the local distilleries look like throughout the fleet are probably a sight to behold. Oh, and keep in mind there were probably large freighters carrying tons of this stuff in commerce between Colonies, among other things. I agree though, it does look like sometimes the writers are ignoring what should be conversation of everything. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:37, 30 January 2007 (CST)
::And they just came into a healthy supply of algae to play with. You can see some kind of distiller or something in the background as the camera pans I'm sure. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 15:41, 30 January 2007 (CST)
:::Yeah, right at the beginning there is something built of kegs/pots and spiraling copper tubing --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:51, 30 January 2007 (CST)

User talk:Mevenstar

2007-01-24T12:24:02Z

Mevenstar: /* Signing your comments */

User talk:Mevenstar

2007-01-24T12:23:26Z

Mevenstar: /* Signing your comments */

Talk:Cylon Religion/Archive 1

2007-01-22T14:44:32Z

Mevenstar:

Talk:Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)/Archive 1

2007-01-22T14:42:42Z

Mevenstar:

== Religeous Variance ==

Specifically, in the bit about funerals... It sounds a bit harsh to say that priests do the funerals regardless of the beliefs of the deceased. It makes it sound like they're Muslims getting Catholic funerals. I couldn't tell you the difference between a Methodist funeral and a Protestant funeral if my life depended on it. I think that this (apparently) unilateral handling of funerals is more indicative of the (mostly) unified religeon of the Colonies, rather than a callous behavior of some kind of oppressive theocracy. The only people who seem like they have a truely different religeous idea are Tigh, Adama and Billy, and they don't seem to strongly anti-religeon that they'd roll over at their religeous funeral. I didn't make an edit to reflect this, though, because this is rather subjective. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:23, 10 September 2005 (EDT) (Post Script: I'm working on getting that picture. My Mac's having some technical issues.)

==Unknowns==

:''Rules applying to the priesthood may or may not be the same throughout the Twelve Colonies. It is possible that certain schools of the priesthood practice celibacy, but Chief [[Tyrol]] stated that his father was a priest and his mother an oracle, so it would not be adhered to by all denominations of the religion of the Twelve Colonies.''

:''This may vary considerably from one Colony to the next: [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenons]] believe in the literal truth of the [[Sacred Scrolls]] and are quite fundamentalist, while [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Capricans]] seem fairly secular in their treatment of Church-State relations.''

I really don't see the point in noting may-or-may-nots and it-is-not-knowns. The idea here is to state everything we do know - everything we don't state is logically unknown. I'm not opposed to informed speculation, but simply listing the areas we haven't heard about seems fruitless.

== The Chicken And Egg Origin of the Greek/Kobol Gods ==

Since the 13th Tribe populated Earth, all the while bringing their religion from Kobol, this suggests that the ''Greek gods'' are the offshoots to the Kobol gods, not the reverse. This fits with the other Olympian gods not (yet) mentioned in the Kobol religion, but present in the Olympian religion.

This suggestion creates several interesting possibilities for thought.

* There wasn't a human population already on Earth with its own religion. The religion of Kobol grew to form the Olympian gods.
* There ''was'' an existing human population, and the Colonial humans and native terrans merged genes and religion, which might have included other beings we know as the Olympian and quasi-Olympian gods.
* The Tribe somehow lost their technological base of information and went into a new dark age similar to what the Tribes experienced before, increasing their need for divine aid (and expansion of the Kobol religion to form the Olympian components). This also kept the 13th Tribe from returning to know the fate of their brothers in the other Tribes.
* The 13th Tribe landed in the Mediterreanean area of Earth (presuming their Earth is ''"our"'' Earth), in what we historically have called the "seat of human civilization."

The hologram in the [[Tomb of Athena]] suggests that the constellations and celestial bodies of Earth were either known already to the Kobol tribes and were programmed into the Tomb before they left, or a 13th Tribe member from Earth returned to do this. If neither are true, then there is real problem with how the Tomb received this information, and the need or ability for the [[Arrow of Apollo]] to be available (and noted in the Sacred Scrolls) as capable of showing the way to a place the Tribes had not yet visited (unless you count in the "all this has happened and will happen again" part of the Scrolls).

I edited the article with the point in mind as it seemed too strong to suggest otherwise. Thoughts on this or points against the notion? (This also keeps us from blowing brain cells on who created what.) [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:34, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

: See the "Three Exodus" portion of [[Sacred Scrolls]] for something that explains this. It was written by me, so perhaps I'm biased towards it being true, but if it is, then the pictures inside the Tomb of Athena ''do'' fall under the "All this has happened before..." clause. As does the dissemination of the Gods. However, I agree that it's probable that the 13th Tribe brought the Lords of Kobol with them to Earth. It's just that, after that, they also brought them ''back'' to Kobol so that they would be there to be brough to Earth again in the next cycle. I hope that's coherent. It's hard talking in circles like this. --[[User:Day|Day]] 18:07, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

::I don't think its necessary or interesting to note that in this much detail - the History article covers the origin of the twelve colonies in substantially more detail. To that end, I'd prefer to revert your comments, if you're not terribly attatched. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:10, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

:::Actually it's not that bad. I'm going to clarify it slightly, but it would probably be useful to keep it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:16, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

::::Actually I would say that Humans where born on earth and went to Kobold as said above, not that Kobold brought the gods to earth, '''life here began out there those are the first words of the ancient scrolls and they where told to us by the lords of Kobold countless centuries ago''' The big one there is ''life here'' lets look at that, they are bluntly stating in a way that life on kobold is not native it began out in space, the ties to earth mythology, technology, referances etc can only be explained so many ways.

::::Take adama's ship (the model) it's a classic schoonar, now you can call 'paralell development' but only to an extent we know that the colonies had space technology when they where founded which leads us to believe that the schoonar is older then that the design anyway, we also know apparently from flash backs etc that Kobold was fairly advanced heck we know they had holographic technology... Which in turn points to the fact that maybe they where not native to Kobold either.

::::I'd prefure to look at it something like this, at some stage we the good old 13th colony reached a point where we had FTL technology and in turn we expanded we spread out and colonised the stars, Kobold was one of those maybe at the time we had advanced enough through gene manipulation or the such that the 13 Lords of Kobold where immortals or at least enhanced humans while the 'normals' who lived in peace with the lords where from a Genetic databank (or perhaps we moved there in an ark to escape some cataclism on earth) over time the origins of were they came from began to fade until the exodus from kobold. Which began the whole cycle again.. (in turn this would show the All this has happened before and all this will happen again part).

::::Even still there are disrepancy's within the shows own words.. the 13th Colony left kobold in the early days and settled on a planet around a distant and unknown star.... that has been proven to be a false statement, it was not unknown, the Koboldians KNEW about it, apparently even the scriptures themselves know that from Earth you can look up at the stars and see the 12 other colonies, the Zodiac.. When you take these facts into account the belief that Kobold is the original planet is impossible, because the Only way you can get the exact star alignments for those Zodiac's is within a set distance (5 or so Light years presuming None of the stars within 5 light years make up the Zodic pieces) of Earth.. No Life began on earth and went to kobold it's the only way one can explain so much of what is Canon of the show now. [[User:RobGraham|RobGraham]]21:03 Thursday 29th June Australian EST.

::::: A note: It's "Kobol". The one is a planet, the other is a small dogish creature from D&D (if I remember right). Anyway, I think you're getting tied up in a linear idea of time. You have to keep in mind there that ''is'' no true point of genesis. You can pick any point in the cycle and get back to it. So, take "humans on Earth" as your starting point:

::::: Something makes them leave Earth and move to Kobol. They forget Earth. The Big Bad Thing happens and they flee to the 13 colonies (the Twelves Colonies and Earth). They forget Kobol and Earth. Another Big Bad Thing (Cylons) happens and they flee the Twelve to go find the Thirteenth. Presumably, they settle. They forget Kobol and the Twelve Colonies. Something makes them leave Earth and move to Kobol. They forget Earth. Repeat, repeat.

::::: That's my "Three Exodi" interpretation, anyway. And, in it, from the point of view of the Kobolites, life ''did'' begin "out there" on Earth. That's where they all came from, ''most recently''. I hope that helps explain how everything has already come before. Sure the origin of the zodiacs necessarily comes from Earth. That's incorperated into the theory. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 14:55, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Zephyr ==

About where in the episode is this mentioned? Is it explicitly stated that the ''Zephyr'' is named after a God, or is it just mentioned? It is my understanding that a zephyr is a gust of wind and, thus, not an imp[robable name for a ship with that meaning. Unless it's explicit, I think this point is ambiguous at best. --[[User:Day|Day]] 18:11, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

:No, he's right. See [[Wikipedia:Zephyrus|Zephyrus]]. Very nice catch, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:14, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

:: Woah! Zephyrus lived in a cave on ''Thrace''? That can't be accidental. It hadn't occured to me until I saw it, but I knew this. I played a pice a few years ago called the ''March of the Young Thracians'' or something. Anyway, I'm not sure about Zephyr, still. He wasn't one of the "main" Greek Gods, as it were, so I don't think we can make an assumption that he's a Lord of Kobol. They may have lesser gods like the Greeks did that just have never been mentioned, or it might be that some effects dude at Zoic named the ship that because it makes a good name for a ship, not realizing that it's also an allusion to a Greek god. --[[User:Day|Day]] 18:22, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

:::A link to Kara Thrace's article already noted this, which is where I felt the Zephyr note was credible. Kara's name (as in a human aided by the "winds") and the link to Zephyrus couldn't be a coincidence--RDM had that one down. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:55, 4 October 2005 (EDT)

:::Right, but he ''is'' a god, the Colonials apparently know about him, and we don't have any knowlege on whether the colonials separate the Lords of Kobol from minor deities - so it's probably important to note, and there isn't really a better place for it. (FWIW, they did apparently distinguish between upper and lower demons). --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:29, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

== Liturgy ==
Does anyone know what language Elosha's funeral prayer is in at the end of the Mini-series? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:30, 3 October 2005 (EDT)
:You may already know this answer by now (though others may not), but she is singing in sanskrit from text used in the Hindu faith. A good [http://navras.boourns.net/extra.php fan site] about the end title song to "The Matrix Revolutions", called "Navras", shows the Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 1.3.28 exactly as Elosha sung it and as used in that Matrix end title by composer Don Davis and the artist known as Juno Reactor.

::''asato ma sad gamaya'' 
::''tamaso ma jyotir gamaya'' 
::''mrtyor mamrtam gamaya'' 

:In English:

::''From delusion lead me to truth'' 
::''From darkness lead me to light'' 
::''From death lead me to immortality'' 

:I've watched the Mini-Series countless times now, and used the "Navras" music as some of my workout music. I knew about the sanskit origin, but Eiosha's song was familiar to me and I didn't know why until someone here pointed out that it was a source I already knew. Damn fine soundtracks for both the Mini-Series and "The Matrix" movies, by the way. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:50, 13 December 2005 (EST)

::I actually prefer In My Head, Tetsujin, and You All, Everybody. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:53, 14 December 2005 (EST)

:::I don't recognize the last one, but yes, the first two are also great tracks. I always visualize Trinity kicking butt and taking names when those two tracks are on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:01, 14 December 2005 (EST)

::::Oh come on, surely you must know it: "You all, You all everybody/Acting like such stupid people/wearing expensive clothes/You all, you all, You all, everybody..."--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:38, 14 December 2005 (EST)

::Yes, I incorporated that into the Language in the Twelve Colonies article. That seems to me to be the more appropriate place. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:12, 14 December 2005 (EST)

==Priesthood==

Spencerian added:

:Like denominations on Earth, it is possible that there are varying kinds of priests and customs that share elements of worship of the Lords of Kobol, with some subtle or significant differences. It is probable that, based on their devotion, a Genemon priest (in comparison to one, say, on Caprica) may have a more defined worship or celebration process, or may speak or pay more respects to one or a handful of Lords in preference over others, as Kara Thrace devoted prayer to her specific Lords. The contrast would be akin to the Catholic, Episopal, and Lutheran churches of real-world Earth.

As my fellow contributors know, I frown on plausible but baseless speculation. I don't think this is useful here. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:48, 1 November 2005 (EST)

:Removing. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:08, 3 November 2005 (EST)

==Zoic==

Where and in what capacity did Zoic "release" those names? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:28, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:You know this "reference" as well as I, and I would as well like to see the press release or web site reference where Zoic gave us this information. I know this is circular and that the Great Delete Key of the Citation Jihad may be quivering over that item, but I did note its non-canonical nature, but at the same time, considering its an official production company of the show, its also hard to prove them wrong--this information might be in the mysterious [[series bible]] for all we know. Maybe Joe would know old Ernestborg9's resource. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:26, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::Non-canonical is one thing, but uncited and non-canonical is past my limit. I mean, we could just start making random shit up and say that Zoic said it, and really, nobody would be there to catch us. We have to police ourselves on this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:35, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::If this is the case, we need to delete ALL the battlestar pages or rework them to remove those old Zoic references. I'm OK on this, but we have a lot of work to do. The Zoic thing here has been like the "weird uncle" in the family that you don't talk about or leave the daughters with, but let come to family gatherings anyway. Probably time to purge all references to Zoic's battlestars, maybe moving them to the Zoic page, and deleting the rest. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:15, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::::Well, the ''best'' thing to do would be to find the source of the quote, but I haven't had any luck. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:22, 8 December 2005 (EST)

==Atlantia==
How should we handle this reference? The Atlantia and Pacifica were presumably named after the Atlantic and Pacific oceans (in real life). The Atlantic ocean is named for Atlas, not Atlantia, but that's not necessarily implied by anything on-screen (and if it were really named after the ocean, it would probably be Atlantica.) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:00, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:I'd stick to what we know, until we find something better. Atlas was a founder of Atlantis, so we can add this contradicting resource since Pegasus also has differing sources of origin. Greek myth is always full of contradictions anyway. Given that there's no Atlantic Ocean in the Colonies as far as we know, and the Lords tend to be Olympian, not Titan, gods, I'd go for the dryad origin. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:26, 8 December 2005 (EST)

==The Jealous God==
Ricimer said: ''Although it is tantalizing to claim that the Cylon God is the rebelious Lord of Kobol, I don't think #6 has ever claimed that they're the same one.''

:When Six says to Baltar, "Blasphemous, stupid lies. There have never been any other gods, only the One," it seems to me that she's referring to the one Elosha was just speaking about. You may be right that the inference is too tenuous for the article, though. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:56, 12 December 2005 (EST)

::I love this idea as well, very tantalyzing indeed, but perhaps it belongs in an analysis section to be added to the deleted scenes article. --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 23:21, 12 December 2005 (EST)

::: You see although I'd ''like'' to equate the two, I don't think we can ''yet''; it's more for an "Analysis" section. It seems to me that Number Six in that scene was talking about ALL of the Gods that Elosha was talking about, the Jealous God AND the other 11 ''collectively''. It's not clear enough of a statement. I'm kind of secretly hoping that the cylons were taught the advanced technology needed to make humanoid Cylons from the Count Iblis equivalent of this series, which turns out to be the jealous Lord of Kobol; however, as Ron D. Moore has pointed out, that would kind of "gut" the religion of the Cylons: the Cylons are sentient beings in their own right, and all sentient beings have a claim to a soul and a concept of god once they're intelligent enough to grasp such concepts, and turning around and saying "well the whole idea of Cylons having a religion and thinking they have their own souls? Turns out they got duped by a god-like alien, which, although very powerful, ain't really a god, just more like Q from Star Trek or something", saying that would somehow seem to unfairly lessen the Cylons in my opinion. Maybe they can work the two concepts together tactfully (Cylons developed a concept of God BEFORE meeting Count Iblis, and Iblis is claiming to be the "real Cylon god"? , etc.). I don't know. But we don't have a lot to go on. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:43, 13 December 2005 (EST)

:::: I agree with almost everything you've written, and although I like to speculate that ideas, like Iblis, will be tied back into RDM's Cylon religion, I appreciate that this speculation can only exist in a limited form on the wiki. I don't entirely agree with you on the idea that the Cylons religious credibility would be compromised by a manifested God, for this cyclical pattern working itself out in the show reminds me very much of Isaac Asimov's [http://mit.edu/tylerc/www/twt/LQ1.htm The Last Question], which was satisfying in its vast simplicity.

I like to add a little bit, not to sound pompous but there can be some connection from the Cylon god and the Jealous god. The Jealous God started the war because he wanted to be placed above the other ones, starting the so called "War of the Gods." So he is thrown out and loses, so he wanders around and finds the Cylons. Maybe he inspires them to rebel and they do. He sets himself up as their god, and it is concurrent with what the Cylons think of the Colonial Gods; i.e. the other gods are fake, their one god is the true god. The Jealous God wishes to be placed above the others, and ends up finding a lost race, the Cylons and takes them as his own.

I mean, he may have set himself up as this seemingly beneficial, but ultimately devious figure. It may possibly be a correlation to Count Iblis. --[[User:Volostheguardian|Volostheguardian]] 14:09, 6 August 2006 (CDT)

RDM said there wouldn't be a Count Iblis on the Re-Imagined Series, and that the Cylons aren't "well we're Machines that got fooled into thinking we had souls by a higher being"; the Cylons have as much claim to their religion being "real" as the humans do. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:06, 6 August 2006 (CDT)

:Could we be looking at this from the wrong angle? We assume the cylons religion is fake or that it's just as equally fake or real as the Colonials polytheistic faith. Could the humans from Kobol be the ones who were decieved and the cylons religion is the one that is "real"? Could the Lords of Kobol be the Count Iblis alien/demigod type characters while the cylons have actually been talking to "God"? Theoretically if there was one God and the humans turned away from his teachings and chose to adopt the kobolian faith instead I figure God would be displeased.

:Basically what I'm saying is the Cylon God was originally the god of the primitive humans but then the lords of Kobol came along and they became worshipped as Gods. "God" was angered that the humans worshipped false idols. Once the cylons came along "God" saw a way to preserve its design now that the humans had abandoned the faith. "God" revealed itself to the cylons and through them sought to destroy the humans for abandoning the faith.

:Everything the humans are going through is because they worshipped false idols. The Six in Baltar's head has been right all along. She's an angel (or whatever) from "God". --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 18:13, 18 January 2007.

== Religious Issue ==

the Lords of Kobol are a part of a fictional story. the Greek Olympians are worshipped both by people in ancient times and by living people. the religion is not "shared", rather the Lords are based upon the real-world religion. i realize that this may seem a minor issue to some of you, but it is a significant semantic assumption to make that the Lords are the same as the Olympians. [[User:Whateley23|Whateley23]] 01:46, 16 January 2006 (EST)

:Indeed, it does seem like a minor issue. There is nothing wrong with the current phrasing in my opinion, and I will not change it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:09, 16 January 2006 (EST)

:: I think that the assumption is not that both are fictional, but that the story will tell us they are of the same origin (also implying that the story is not fictional, though it clearly is). ''Within the fictional universe of Ronald D. Moorse's'' Battlestar Galactica, The Lords of Kobol and the Greek Olympians are/were the same thing. We also state that Vipers can do such and such and that ''Galactica'' has certain armaments, but we don't make any caveats about the fact that the nukes in the show are actually ''fictional'' nukes for fear of offending nuclear scientists currently working on related technologies. Everything except the articles on actors and other clearly-real things, should be taken as if it were prefaced by the italics above: We know the show's not real, so don't let our comments about it reflect on reality. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:08, 16 January 2006 (EST)

== Religious Parallels ==
Should we maybe move the parallels between Colonial religion and real world faiths to an independent article? We don't really have a systematic way to present Colonial religion and the parallels exacerbate this problems by further broadening the articles only makes this article harder to understand.--[[User:Spidersense215|Spidersense215]] 14:06, 21 September 2006 (CDT)
:Which ones? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:17, 21 September 2006 (CDT)

== Lords of Kobol ==
Does the existance of the Mercury class Battlestars imply that Hermes/Mercury is a Lord of Kobol? --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 15:15, 18 October 2006 (CDT)+
:The writers of the show are dancing about in the usage of Greek and Roman mythological names. Since Hermes hasn't been mentioned specifically as a Lord, no, we can't add it. I'm not big on mixing the pantheons until the context of the names in the show are clear. We have a list of names (Greek, mostly) of names heard of ships or used as people, but until used in in the context as a Lord, we shouldn't assume that the name is actually that of a Lord. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:20, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::That makes sense. It occured to me after I wrote the above that the name could refer to quicksilver, which would make sense if the Mercury class was faster than earlier ones. That would also tidy up the roman nomenclature.
::Where is the list of names you mentioned? --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 15:30, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
:::See the section, "Other mythological names in Colonial culture," this article. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:28, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::::LMAO. I was searching all over this site. It didn't occur to me that it'd be in the same article I was commenting on. --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 20:47, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

The article mentions that seven lords have been identified. Anyone notice this is the same as the number of identified cylons? It could be that each cylon model represents a lord (i.e. Sharon - Athena, Six (or maybe three) - Hera). The 5 unidentified cylons match 5 unidentified lords match the 5 in the temple of five. On a related note: how about the (norse) idea of an allfather - the Cylons recognize the allfather, but none of the lower "gods" (including the Lords of Kobol). I suppose this would be an alternate theory to the Jealous God being the god of cylons. --[[User:Ublej|Ublej]] 17:29, 4 January 2007 (CST)
:The Colonials have Zeus as the boss of all other gods. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:32, 4 January 2007 (CST)

== More Cowbell ==
Actually, more images, please. Great text content, but a couple of more images applied evenly would really brighten things up. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:04, 8 December 2006 (CST)
:Ooh. And there are some XHTML problems. I'll get on those. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:25, 8 December 2006 (CST)

== Out-of-Universe Referencing and Revision ==

I get very confused with voice when reading this article, where we speak of the Colonials and compare it to real-world references. I wanted to keep these important notes in but not to the point where we had to discuss every detail or explanation. With that in mind, I got bold:

*The two articles that go overboard in discussing the Greek Gods and Greek Mythology are deleted, per Battlestar Wiki policy: We aren't a general encyclopedia, so Wikipedia links to more extensive articles should do for this. Both articles have been discussed of late as being redundant or just plain nongermane.

*This article's out-of-universe notes were moved as footnotes. This simplifies the read but keeps the voice of the article in discussing the Colonials, not the Colonials-vs.-Greek-vs.-Norse. Note that the terms "Greek", Norse, and the like are also removed or pulled; these don't exist in the series and it makes it confusing to make the comparison. The name of the gods usually explain it all but the important points are now footnotes.

I'm finding that reading articles that analyze the Colonials and Cylons take too much from the real-world to form their explanations when in-universe comments work well without overly drawn out comparisons. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:28, 12 January 2007 (CST)

:While I support the idea, I think it's possible to take it too far. If we take your approach to the extreme, it's impossible to have any real-world references in articles, which happens fairly often and is simply necessary in some cases. I think that this is more important:
:That the ''main'' voice of an article is "in-universe". Meaning no general real-world articles, but "in-universe" articles can contain a few real-world references if necessary.

:Case in point my new [[Mythological references]] page, which generally goes like "<ship/place name> - <significance in the show> <real world reference>". I didn't go out of my way to hide the Greek/Roman/Norse allusions in "in-universe" explinations, like saying that Greek mythology is really Colonial mythology in the context of the show (it probably is in fact, but that's more something for this article).

:However, in this article here, it's appropriate to only detail the religious stuff as it pertains to the Colonials, and not to the real world. So we could keep the "Mythological references" article seperate, delete the references here (which I copied anyways) and link to it from here, as a place that deals with mythology that goes beyond religion and also includes more real-life explinations and links. That would help to keep the POVs seperate --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:56, 13 January 2007 (CST)

Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies.

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to
suggest that the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the
Cylons. They are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than
Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans. So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord
or at the very least evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for
enlightenment, in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to
refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness
perhaps even conciousness of the lords in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the
lords. The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see
developing in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious
leader in the original series has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his
fellow cylons to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And
yet, strangely, he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother
cylons, something you would expect of an Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in
heaven, he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a
member of a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself
(greek gods), how satanic might he appear? An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satan's flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rule in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in
hell. So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica/ Aphrodite, Sharon
Athena and Deanna/Hestia(?). Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?

Adama and Laura as Zeus and Hera? Two reason for two of the final five to stay
where they are. They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the
flow, well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of
Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and
wonderful in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge
advances by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of
Stargate or the Vorlons of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with
higher beings in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty
realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a
new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a
metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end
sounds far more believeable than actual gods and godesses co-existing with man. (mevenstar)

User:Mevenstar

2007-01-22T14:37:12Z

Mevenstar: New page: Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies. Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to suggest that the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god,...

Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies.

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to
suggest that the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the
Cylons. They are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than
Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans. So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord
or at the very least evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for
enlightenment, in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to
refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness
perhaps even conciousness of the lords in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the
lords. The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see
developing in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious
leader in the original series has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his
fellow cylons to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And
yet, strangely, he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother
cylons, something you would expect of an Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in
heaven, he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a
member of a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself
(greek gods), how satanic might he appear? An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satan's flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rule in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in
hell. So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica/ Aphrodite, Sharon
Athena and Deanna/Hestia(?). Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?

Adama and Laura as Zeus and Hera? Two reason for two of the final five to stay
where they are. They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the
flow, well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of
Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and
wonderful in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge
advances by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of
Stargate or the Vorlons of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with
higher beings in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty
realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a
new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a
metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end
sounds far more believeable than actual gods and godesses co-existing with man.
ESTR

Talk:Rapture/Archive 1

2007-01-22T14:24:25Z

Mevenstar:

== Photo ==

I think it's time to replace Universal logo with a promotional photo. The question is: with which one? My vote goes [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000t5fg5/g282 here]. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 05:36, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:Ditto. Make sure it's uploaded to the Media wiki properly first. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:11, 23 December 2006 (CST)
::It already is. Its used on the [[Final five]] page. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:06, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:::Ever notice how prevalent the Universal logo is on all of their products? It's particularly annoying when watching the Season One DVDs. They finally started cutting it from in front of individual episodes on the 2.5 discs. The logo is down-right... universal. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:51, 8 January 2007 (CST)

(referring to the picture) So this is where some of the members of the Grey Council went after Delenn dissolved it... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:11, 31 December 2006 (CST)
:Yeah. Better gig. Far more lighting. Sexier minions to grovel at your feet, too. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:22, 1 January 2007 (CST)
::Mmm. Minions. The twenty-first cannot come soon enough. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:49, 8 January 2007 (CST)
:::13 days, 10 hours, 31 minutes :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:28, 8 January 2007 (CST)

== My Predictions ==

Here's what I think we'll see tonight:
*Helo kills Athena so she can download and get Hera from the Cylons.
*Dualla goes Starbuck-hunting with Anders. They fall for each other, thus neatly wrapping up the Starbuck/Apollo/Anders/Dee love rectangle.
*Bill Adama nukes the bejeezus out of the algae planet. Chief, Cally, Barolay, and Bendis die. Everyone else makes it out on a heavy raider.
*The Final Five: Starbuck, Anders, Billy, Johnny Five, and Galvatron.
*Guest appearances by the SuicideGirls.

All of the above predictions are pulled directly from the darkest reaches of my rectum and should not be taken seriously. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:17, 21 January 2007 (CST)
: 1st idea: might actually possibly work even though it won't happen. 2nd: Good idea, actually. 3rd: Naw. 4th: Bahahahahaha. 5th: I wish. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:34, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:As they say on the forums, Galvatron ftw. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:57, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:Slander, I have an idea to make it even better. Option 3, take the "it" out of the 3rd sentence. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 16:26, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::Anders and Apollo making out? Hey, it could happen. They're both very pretty and Bamber is English. That's close enough to being a girl. And, hey, we'd get to see the inside of a heavy raider. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 17:46, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:::HOLY FRAK, SLANDER! HOW DID YOU KNOW?! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:09, 21 January 2007 (CST)

Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies.

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to suggest that
the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the Cylons. They
are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans.
So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord or at the very least
evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for enlightenment,
in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness perhaps even conciousness of the lords
in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the lords.
The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see developing
in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious leader in the original series
has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his fellow cylons
to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And yet, strangely,
he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother cylons, something you would expect of an
Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven,
he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a member of
a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself (greek gods), how satanic might he appear?
An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satans flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rull in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in hell.
So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica Aphrodite, Sharon Athena
and Deanna Hestia?. Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?
Adama and Laura and Zeus and Hera? two reason for two of the final five to stay where they are.
They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the flow,
well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and wonderful
in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge advances
by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of Stargate or the Vorlons
of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with higher beings
in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies
over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon
models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end sounds far more believeable
than actual gods and godesses.