Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/CalculatinAvatar

2006-05-07T18:36:10Z

Mazzy: /* CalculatinAvatar */

===[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]===
[[Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship|Back to RFA]].

'''[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:<nowiki>Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/CalculatinAvatar</nowiki>|action=edit}} Vote here] '''
'''(5/0/1) ending <nowiki>07:35</nowiki> 8 May 2006 (UTC)'''

{{User|CalculatinAvatar}} – I have been consistently impressed with CalculatinAvatar since he first joined us four months ago. He has displayed meticulous attention to detail, a strong commitment to accuracy, and his comments in the talk namespaces are always clear and well considered. Although his edit count is small, his contributions have been of consistently high value. I believe that as an administrator, he would be an even stronger asset to the project. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (CDT)

:''Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here:'' I accept. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:30, 1 May 2006 (CDT)

'''Support'''
#[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 09:33, 1 May 2006 (CDT) - Quality editing by a user who I dont think has fallen out with anyone at all.
#[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:42, 1 May 2006 (CDT) - An exemplary Battlewikian. Not afraid to dive in and do some of the dirty work (any help over in the TOS and 1980 sections are greatly appreciated). Outside of an [[Talk:Perry|odd case of confusing violent agreement with Merv]] I can't think of any disturbances that CalculatinAvatar has been involved in. I'm sure he'll handle the mop with care and skill, and I had considered nominating him myself. I suppose it would be selfish to tank an RFA for the sole purpose of having someone succeed on "your" nomination... so I must '''support'''.
#[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:42, 1 May 2006 (CDT) I'm sure that Day would like to stop mopping; we need a fresh Mop Boy, and CA has shown the right muster. Hope your arms are ready; the place has a bigger floor now...
#[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:57, 1 May 2006 (CDT) - After a long sleep to think about it, I support the Rfa.
# [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 13:35, 7 May 2006 (CDT) In favor. He helped me with something I didn't know how to fix. If thats the way he works then he is an asset. Admittedly my only knowledge. But it made a good impression.
'''Oppose'''
#

'''Neutral'''
#[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:58, 1 May 2006 (CDT)

'''Comments'''
*Well, I'm really confused on this one: I like CA, and he's pretty good at stuff, but, hmm, well what I'm asking is; you've done good work making pages fit with out standards, and spelling and grammer, but what things do you feel you've done that showed your discretion and/or ability to contribute quality stuff? What are several major debates which you feel you contributed Administratorish (I know that isn't a word :) ) aspects in? What insight have you provided that no one else has? I'm not sure how to vote. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:58, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
*I've added this as question 5--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:13, 4 May 2006 (CDT)

'''Questions for the candidate''' 

''A few generic questions to provide guidance for voters:''
:'''1.''' What duties, if any, would you anticipate helping with? Please check out [[Battlestar Wiki:Project List]]'s for a list of projects.
::A. I am most involved in grammar, punctuation, style, diction, linking, and (to a lesser extent) spelling changes. I also tend to fact-check articles dealing with comparisons between the reimagined series and our reality (e.g. [[Kinetic Energy Weapon]], [[Naturalistic science fiction]], and [[Assassination]]). I have particular interest in the application of [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad]], [[Battlestar Wiki:Island of Misfit Images]], and [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]].
::I sometimes check the text quality of TOS or 1980 articles, but my unfamiliarity with their content hinders substantive changes.

:'''2.''' Of your articles or contributions here, are there any about which you are particularly pleased, and why?
::A. [[Assassination]] and [[Galactica type battlestar|''Galactica'' type battlestar]] occur to me, but those are pretty much just larger cases of the same prose clean-up edits as the majority of my contributions. That said, I am pleased that, in my assessment, I improved the readability and accuracy of each.
::I poke at articles more than I compose them, so those are some of my larger changes.

:'''3.''' Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or do you feel other users have caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?
::A. I have had edit conflicts in the past, and I tend to deal with them by citing sources or finding out I was wrong when looking for sources. Sometimes I simply provide a more clear justification (e.g. "Normally I wouldn't revert a revert, but sentences end in periods.") or decide the other person has a better point or one of which I was ignorant (e.g. "punctuation order (that had occured to me, but i didn't really like the impression they gave. that said, i can live with them.)" after Peter's change tagged "Those are real quotes, not scare quotes.").

:'''4.''' What can't you do as a standard contributor that administrator-ship would enable or allow you to do?
::A. block vandals (especially those annoying numeric accounts), grammar check protected pages

:'''5.''' What is creative input that you feel has distinguished you? What specific debates do you feel demonstrated your grasp of the facts and ability to lay out and moderate a good arguement?

Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/CalculatinAvatar

2006-05-07T18:35:42Z

Mazzy: /* CalculatinAvatar */

===[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]===
[[Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship|Back to RFA]].

'''[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:<nowiki>Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/CalculatinAvatar</nowiki>|action=edit}} Vote here] '''
'''(5/0/1) ending <nowiki>07:35</nowiki> 8 May 2006 (UTC)'''

{{User|CalculatinAvatar}} – I have been consistently impressed with CalculatinAvatar since he first joined us four months ago. He has displayed meticulous attention to detail, a strong commitment to accuracy, and his comments in the talk namespaces are always clear and well considered. Although his edit count is small, his contributions have been of consistently high value. I believe that as an administrator, he would be an even stronger asset to the project. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (CDT)

:''Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here:'' I accept. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:30, 1 May 2006 (CDT)

'''Support'''
#[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 09:33, 1 May 2006 (CDT) - Quality editing by a user who I dont think has fallen out with anyone at all.
#[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:42, 1 May 2006 (CDT) - An exemplary Battlewikian. Not afraid to dive in and do some of the dirty work (any help over in the TOS and 1980 sections are greatly appreciated). Outside of an [[Talk:Perry|odd case of confusing violent agreement with Merv]] I can't think of any disturbances that CalculatinAvatar has been involved in. I'm sure he'll handle the mop with care and skill, and I had considered nominating him myself. I suppose it would be selfish to tank an RFA for the sole purpose of having someone succeed on "your" nomination... so I must '''support'''.
#[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:42, 1 May 2006 (CDT) I'm sure that Day would like to stop mopping; we need a fresh Mop Boy, and CA has shown the right muster. Hope your arms are ready; the place has a bigger floor now...
#[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:57, 1 May 2006 (CDT) - After a long sleep to think about it, I support the Rfa.
# [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 13:35, 7 May 2006 (CDT) In favor. He helped me with something I didn't know how to fix. If thats the way he works then he is an asset. Admittly my only knowledge. But it made a good impression.
'''Oppose'''
#

'''Neutral'''
#[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:58, 1 May 2006 (CDT)

'''Comments'''
*Well, I'm really confused on this one: I like CA, and he's pretty good at stuff, but, hmm, well what I'm asking is; you've done good work making pages fit with out standards, and spelling and grammer, but what things do you feel you've done that showed your discretion and/or ability to contribute quality stuff? What are several major debates which you feel you contributed Administratorish (I know that isn't a word :) ) aspects in? What insight have you provided that no one else has? I'm not sure how to vote. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:58, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
*I've added this as question 5--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:13, 4 May 2006 (CDT)

'''Questions for the candidate''' 

''A few generic questions to provide guidance for voters:''
:'''1.''' What duties, if any, would you anticipate helping with? Please check out [[Battlestar Wiki:Project List]]'s for a list of projects.
::A. I am most involved in grammar, punctuation, style, diction, linking, and (to a lesser extent) spelling changes. I also tend to fact-check articles dealing with comparisons between the reimagined series and our reality (e.g. [[Kinetic Energy Weapon]], [[Naturalistic science fiction]], and [[Assassination]]). I have particular interest in the application of [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad]], [[Battlestar Wiki:Island of Misfit Images]], and [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]].
::I sometimes check the text quality of TOS or 1980 articles, but my unfamiliarity with their content hinders substantive changes.

:'''2.''' Of your articles or contributions here, are there any about which you are particularly pleased, and why?
::A. [[Assassination]] and [[Galactica type battlestar|''Galactica'' type battlestar]] occur to me, but those are pretty much just larger cases of the same prose clean-up edits as the majority of my contributions. That said, I am pleased that, in my assessment, I improved the readability and accuracy of each.
::I poke at articles more than I compose them, so those are some of my larger changes.

:'''3.''' Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or do you feel other users have caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?
::A. I have had edit conflicts in the past, and I tend to deal with them by citing sources or finding out I was wrong when looking for sources. Sometimes I simply provide a more clear justification (e.g. "Normally I wouldn't revert a revert, but sentences end in periods.") or decide the other person has a better point or one of which I was ignorant (e.g. "punctuation order (that had occured to me, but i didn't really like the impression they gave. that said, i can live with them.)" after Peter's change tagged "Those are real quotes, not scare quotes.").

:'''4.''' What can't you do as a standard contributor that administrator-ship would enable or allow you to do?
::A. block vandals (especially those annoying numeric accounts), grammar check protected pages

:'''5.''' What is creative input that you feel has distinguished you? What specific debates do you feel demonstrated your grasp of the facts and ability to lay out and moderate a good arguement?

Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad

2006-05-03T14:44:43Z

Mazzy: /* Support */

*[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01|Archive 1 (September 29th, 2005 to Present)]]:

:[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Citation Consistency|Citation Consistency]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Request for name change|Request for name change]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#BSG: The Magazine|BSG: The Magazine]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Citation Format|Citation Format]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Character Ages|Character Ages]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Railguns|Railguns]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Twelve Lords of Kobol|Twelve Lords of Kobol]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Magazine Content|Magazine Content]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#To Do|To Do]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#BSG Books|BSG Books]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Sources namespace|Sources namespace]]


==Koenigrules / Hollywood North Report==
"Koenigrules" (KR) is the alias of Jim Iaccino, a popular reporter of BSG spoilers, whose reports are often cited and reposted by other sources. [http://lvpodcasts.autopodcaster.com/download.php?filename=Subject_2_Discussion_04_11_2006.mp3/Subject_2_Discussion_04_11_2006.mp3 Recent comments] made on the "[http://www.subject2discussion.com/ Subject 2 Discussion]" segment of the "[http://www.lvrocks.com/ LV Rocks]" radio program (transcribed at [[Sources:Subject 2 Discussion, 11 April 2006]]) raised the possibility that KR is merely re-reporting publically available information, and does not appear to be a credible primary source.

[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] investigated this possibility, and posted his findings to [[Talk:Precipice#Question about Koenigrules]]. [[User:Peter Farago|I]] raised the possibility of instating a policy against citing KR's reports as credible sources on Battlestar Wiki, which was seconded by [[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]].

Consequently, I am opening a formal vote here on the matter. Please review [[Sources:Subject 2 Discussion, 11 April 2006]], its putative [http://www.nowcasting.com/sides/Episodic/BATTLESTAR%20GALACTICA/301%20Occupation/Selloi_Dedona_4pgs.pdf source material], and The Merovingian's comments on [[Talk:Precipice#Question about Koenigrules]] prior to casting your vote, and feel free to raise any questions below. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:18, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update:''' Koenigrules has responded to a number of our concerns via e-mail. You can read my correspondence with him at [[Sources:Correspondence with Jim Iaccino]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:36, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 2:''' I will be transcribing KR's appearance on tonight's Subject 2 Discussion either later tonight or early tomorrow, and offer my considered opinion afterwards. I may request that the current "blacklist" vote be closed and recast as a more general discussion on the appropriateness of anonymous sources at battlestar wiki. Rebuttals will be welcome. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:05, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 3:''' KR's latest appearance has been transcribed to [[Sources:Subject 2 Discussion, 25 April 2006]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:45, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 4:''' My final opinion is available at [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad#From Peter]]. I have changed my vote to "Oppose" and have supported Joe's suggestion of closing this vote and moving the topic of discussion to the appropriateness of anonymous sources. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:25, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 5:''' This poll was closed by Joe on May 2, 2006, in favor of "The Rumor Vote" below. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:27, 3 May 2006 (CDT)

===Blacklist Vote===

====In favor of a policy against citing KR as a primary source====
*<del>[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:36, 19 April 2006 (CDT) - I feel like this guy betrayed us. And it's getting worse; 4-5 news sites report things he says as fact; he is not helping at all. Dogger said: "''He often fails to differentiate what he is reporting from his own speculation, an oversight compounded by the fact that his speculation is hampered by a lack of attention to detail.''"-->He put that more clearly than I could. Way to go Dogger. :)</del>
*<del>[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:11, 20 April 2006 (CDT) If he originates nothing, we lose nothing by not citing him.</del>
*<strike>[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:34, 20 April 2006 (CDT) - We do NOT claim to be a primary source here, and everything that is stated as fact should be citable elsewhere. Our sources are therefore our foundation, so they should be held to a high standard.</strike>
#[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:30, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:21, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 03:16, 21 April 2006 (CDT) I'm against the publication of anything except the facts.
# [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 17:12, 21 April 2006 (CDT) This is site is a reference, it would be misleading to publish anything other than citable information. I would vote the same no matter who we were talking about and spoilers without a named source seem to be a chance of forever cataloging misinformation. If this were a vote about sources and not a person I would be more comfortable but as it stands, I don't feel I can change my vote in good faith. I think spoilers except ones coming directly from writers or cast should be left off all together. If there is a more appropriate way for me to express this than this vote, I will consider changing it if not this is my input.-- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 12:00, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 17:15, 21 April 2006 (CDT) I must concur. Too much flotsam.
#*[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 20:38, 21 April 2006 (CDT) <del>I've never heard KR 'reveal' anything that I haven't already seen from another source. I have always seen him as just somebody who reads the same things I read and then repeats them in another venue, but with an extra helping of certainty.</del> He often fails to differentiate what he is reporting from his own speculation, an oversight compounded by the fact that his speculation is hampered by a lack of attention to detail. <del>Perhaps what he does might have some value as a 'digest' of what is being talked about, but I don't see why anyone but the most naive listener would consider him as a primary source.</del>
#*I have struck out parts of my comments that seem to have been proven wrong by some of the history presented in the thread on Skiffy. However, I cannot in good conscience change my vote because of the simple fact that I don't think that anyone claiming an anonymous source should really be considered a primary source, even if that source is genuine. Perhaps 'blacklist' is the wrong word. I simply see this as a test case for what is the appropriate kind of evidence that should be cited as authoritative. Singling out KR is probably unfair, but that doesn't change what I honestly think to be not an appropriate primary source for a wiki. If there were a vote to have a policy against citing any anonymous source as a primary source, then I would be in favour of that too. I consider this vote to be just an example of what I think should be an overall principle. For example, if KR were to name his source, then I don't see any reason not to consider citing that information. The problem I have is not with KR's honesty in particular -- it's with the idea of citing a source without giving the reader the benefit of evaluating its reliability, and that includes anonymity as well as the mixing of facts with speculation.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 19:36, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#*<del>[[User:Gouge|Frankie Gouge]] 02:20, 22 April 2006 (EDT) Credibility is too hard to earn to risk needlessly. Plenty of other sites to get speculative spoilers. </del>
#[[User:Bowersj8|Bowersj8]] 14:31, 22 April 2006 (EDT)
#[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:40, 25 April 2006 (CDT) I listened enough to the radio show. (All Annoymous Sources too...)

====Opposed====
#[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 22:21, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:41, 26 April 2006 (CDT) Individual blacklisting is not appropriate for this case.
#[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 13:49, 26 April 2006 (CDT) It seems he does originate things after all.
#[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:09, 26 April 2006 (CDT) Let's not single out KR on the issue, but we do need to address the issue of anonymous sources (see below).
#[[User:Adedward|Adedward]] 23:28, 28 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 12:06, 2 May 2006 (CDT) - This discussion kind of evolved into the more generic discussion about anonymous sources in general, and I no longer support a ban on KR specifically. I think we already said it had changed and stuff last week, but I forgot to formally change my vote.

====Abstain====
#[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 07:33, 23 April 2006 (CDT) Changed to abstain because I don't feel I know enough about this issue to choose either way.
#[[User:Quig|Quig]] 10:09, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:53, 20 April 2006 (CDT) After reading the unfortunate thread on the Skiffy board and the dialgoue established between Peter and KR, I will abstain until I determine whether or not this whole thing was worth the heartache for all concerned.
#[[User:Gouge|Frankie Gouge]] 16:05, 24 April 2006 (EDT)
#[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:58, 26 April 2006 (EST)

===Motion by The Merovingian===
While KoenigRules and several of his collleagues insist that he does indeed have access to some sort of spoilers, all of them still will not confirm the veracity of these sources. Seeing as this is what they would do both if they were REAL and if they were NOT REAL sources, we thus arrive at an impasse. Therefore, I want to find some civil compromise over this: I'm a Uniter, not a Divider, and if we start turning on each other Rick Berman's new crackpot scheme to make Star Trek XI: Starfleet Academy will eat us BSG fans alive. '''Proposal''': If KoenigRules promises to be more careful in the future in his interviews, to *'''make it clear'''* when he is giving away '''direct information from his source(s)''', and when he is making a '''speculation''' ''based'' on either this purported source material, ''or'' just his own personal '''opinion''', we will reverse our decision to hold a vote to reject him as a reliable source. For example, if KoenigRules says in an interview "I think Baltar is a Cylon", he should really make it clear that that is just his opinion and not supported by any spoiler source information that he might have, as news sites might miscontrue his comments and lead to a world of trouble. However, the matter of HollyWoodNorthReport itself, which has come under frequent attack from many sites for improperly forgetting to use citations when they source material from other fansites, should be considered a separate matter.

I hope we can all agree to this.

:I don't think this subissue needs a vote. Koenigrules has indicated to me that he'll be able to reply here by monday. If he can adequately address the concerns we've raised, then naturally, the above discussion will be re-evaluated in light of that. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:21, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

====Support====
#--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:48, 22 April 2006 (CDT)

====Oppose====

== On anonymous sources ==

In lieu of all this, I am thinking of further clarifying the section defining what sources we should and should not use on the wiki. In particular, sources that are anonymous should not be referenced (this is fairly common sense, but isn't explicitly stated0. Also, for reference, we should probably add a definitive list of sources, grouped by categories from "uses anonymous source" to "trusted primary sources". (We have a list such as this already on the Citation page, though it could be better defined in my mind. ) Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:49, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
:I agree (though I don't know how to set that up using wiki code).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:46, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
::We would set it up just like the "Image tagging policy" page. The only question is how do we define what is legit and what is not? If we consider how big the internet and how vast information can be found, anyone who reports on infomration at a regular basis could be considered legit, as long as the information is true. (i.e. Gateworld vs. HNR). This would also not benifit the little people. So I am not really a fan of this, but in light of the problem with spoilers vs. fact, this might be needed. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:02, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Well it now seems likely that KR does indeed have a source: he's been heavily involved since the Miniseries, and was on the original nuBSG fan page. What threw me in all of this is that that site **no longer exists**, so when I was trying to fact check his credibility it didn't come up. He still cannot reveal his source without compromising it, so I think Joe's "annonymous source" spoiler tag idea might be best. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:41, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I think anytime something can be better defined, it is a plus to the accuracy of the project. =)-- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 12:02, 24 April 2006 (CDT)

Everyone I think this has been resolved after our contact with KoenigRules, and we should bring down the site notice on the Main Page that there's a vote going on regarding KR, as I think things have been resolved already and this would only confuse newcomers. KR seems entirely on the level to me now, and we should put this past and move on to other work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:40, 24 April 2006 (CDT)

:Absolutely not. This remains an important issue. Tomorrow night, I will transcribe his appearance on S2D and offer my final opinion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:13, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

===From Peter===

Alright then. Having spoken with KR and listened to his latest podcast, the following is now clear to me:
*KR is not merely re-reporting information gleaned from other sources available to the public. The overlap between the information in the Selloi Dedona casting side and the report made on the 11th is remarkable, but the information he supplied on the 25th cannot be accounted for in light of other publicly available material.
*KR asserts that he has a single, anonymous source for all his reports.
*KR has complied with every request we've made of him, clearly separating his personal speculation from information supplied by his source.

It is therefore my opinion that he has done everything we can reasonably expect him to do, considering the anonymity of his source. I therefore believe that singling him out for blacklisting is inappropriate. I am changing my opinion on the above vote to "oppose", and I support Joe's desire to let the matter drop and refocus the discussion on the nature of our sources.

The [[Battlestar Wiki:Spoiler Policy|Spoiler Policy]], arrived at by grudging compromise last autumn, makes the following statement:

<blockquote>All spoiler information must have a source, whether in the form of a [[Wikipedia:URL|URL]] or a printed publication text, on the ''talk page'' of the spoilerific article. For printed publication text, a copy must be scanned and uploaded to the wiki in the form of a [[Wikipedia:JPG|JPG]] or [[Wikipedia:PNG|PNG]], and posted on the talk page of the article containing the spoilerific content.</blockquote>

Naturally, this arises from a desire for Battlestar Wiki to be a reliable source. The nature of a wiki allows anybody to contribute news and information, which must be checked by a policy such as this. It would obviously be unacceptable to allow anybody to pass off ungrounded speculation as reported fact, bolstered in reputation by dint of its presence on the wiki.

However, the very nature of spoiler reporting renders impossible the goal of maintaining perfect accuracy while reporting on episodes not scheduled to air for months to come. Even the very best sources we can hope to come by - legitimate casting sides and call sheets, for example - may refer to script elements that end up being cut from the final broadcast. Set reports may refer to scenes which are filmed but not included, or be reported out of context.

This is an inevitability to which we must resign ourselves if we intend to report on spoilers at all. However, it can be mitigated by requiring attribution to individual reporters. The real problem with KR's reports is the anonymity of his source. Casting sides and call sheets which arrive in their original format are unlikely to be forged, and set reports substantiated by photographic evidence, but all we have to go on with regard to KR is his good reputation.

I find it awkward to judge submissions here based on such a nebulous concept as the reporter's reputation, which is why my personal preference leans to reporting only information which can be backed up by tangible evidence or sourced to individuals involved in production. However, it should be acknowledged that by excluding anonymous reports such as KR's, we will be depriving ourselves of a prolific source of timely and apparently reasonably accurate information.

Because I consider this a real and important dilemma, I want to solicit comment form other users on the issue of anonymous sources. Particularly relevant questions:
*Should they be allowed at all?
*If so, should we discriminate between different sources on the basis of reputation?
*If so, how should reputation be determined, and who should be responsible for determining it?
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:22, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

: '''(Intro)''' First of all, I listened to the podcast live. There was quite a number of people in the chat channel inclduing myself. Along with KR, was merv, Ribby, and a few other people that were in the orginal flame war on SciFi.com.
: '''(Question 1)''' anonymous Spoliers are the worest. First of all, they are considered [[Wikipedia:Hearsay]] which means the context of the spolier or information can change and exaserations can be made by the reporter. '''(From the Podcast on Question #1)''' When I listened last night he said he took through notes on what his source said, to make sure he kept the information straight. Usually I have pretty good ears, but I didn't hear any paper's or him lean away from the phone.
: '''(Question 2)''' If gateworld to report this as a spolier, and like this podcast OR link even us as the source with US sourceing it as an annoymous source, [http://gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/04/secondandthirdepisodetitle.shtml Gateworld] did not list this current radio cast as the source for them knowning the new title. This page was posted a good few hours before the radio show. They have yet to cite or deem these current spoliers on the website.
: '''(Question 3)''' I can not answer this, because I think offical sites, offical news orginzations, are the best place. If this came from Katte's website, or Apollo's then I would be OMG, but it didn't. It came from a source that can not even verify if the spoliers are correct. Teasers are '''offical spoliers''', you can choose to watch them or not, but they are offical. RDM podcasts are offical, RDM blog. etc... etc..
: '''(Conclustion)''' If he was to go on the show stright till october, we would know all of Season 3 BEFORE it happened. For this, I voted to not allow KR be a source, even if another "anonymous" soruce, and only allow '''offical spoliers''' to be reported. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 13:45, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:I'm not that keen on using anonymous sources at all. I don't think it's realistic for us to be everything to everyone, and would rather see us strive to be the concise, accurate, organized repository of BSG knowledge (and let the new sites and forums handle the spoiler info). I could see maybe having a "news" pages with links to such spoilers, but actually putting content into the article that we have no way of verifying (and could prove to be false) seems like a stretch.
:Maybe there's a way for us to be able to "report" the information, without compromising our accuracy. We could, for example, limit spoiler postings to spoiler news areas (which nobody updates anyway), and obvious spoiler pages (like the next season, and upcoming episodes). People reading those pages '''expect''' spoiler information, as there is no canon information available yet. The important thing to keep in mind would be making sure that once the page passes out of the realm of spoilers into to normal article space (by having an airdate, etc), all normal citation requirements must apply. It is a double standard, but there's a clearly demarcated line that could be observed/enforced, and if the spoilers end up being false it only ends up affecting the temporal accuracy of that particular spoiler page, and not the long-term accuracy of the page once aired. I would still prefer not seeing any anonymous sources in the regular article space, though, as the maintenance issues involved would potentially leave false spoiler information in place after the event occurs.
:Also, I'd like to see the above vote closed (since the context since it's opening has changed quite dramatically). I'd rather not change my vote, I'd vote that way again given the same information, but "re-voting" based on the new information seems a bit of the Monday-morning quarterbacking ("I'd a double bagged it.")--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:47, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

::Spoilers are already quarantined into the episode guide pages; quarantining anonymous spoilers somewhere else seems excessive to me. I think we just need to decide one way or another. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:55, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::I didn't realize that was the case. I think I was remembering character pages like [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Helena_Cain&oldid=23108 this] that had spoiler boxes, and it's hard to edit them without running into the spoilers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
::::I'm mistaken. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:02, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

Having read everything you guys said and listening to the last show, here's my thoughts:
I entirely agree with the three points about KR Peter said; he met our requests and was careful about saying "I guess" "that's what I think", etc., and he incorporated it into his interview smoothly (didn't stop in his tracks and say "everyone be warned this is just what I think, websites shouldn't etc etc etc) which was good for him, not affecting his interview drastically. I think that worked out well for everyone. Nextly, I am actually now quite possitive that '''he does indeed have some sort of spoiler source''', the exact nature of which is of course unknown, but still it is now clear to me that he isn't just basing all of his information on casting sides and public information, but has a source no one else does. The real problem, then, has changed: how do we address spoilers which are based on a reporter who has a ''reputation'' of providing on the whole accurate spoilers ''in the past'', and uses an ''anonymous source'' which nonetheless seems to be a "real" source?
:"Should they be allowed at all? If so, should we discriminate between different sources on the basis of reputation? If so, how should reputation be determined, and who should be responsible for determining it?"
This was an important set of questions Peter, and I think that a new subsection on our sources policy page should be openned up to discuss these questions raised in more detail. '''Further, I agree entirely with you and Joe's feelings that this vote here should be "wiped", singling out a single person would be inappropriate, that we should "let the matter drop and refocus the discussion on the nature of our sources."'''

KR's sources thus seem to ''generally'' be real and he's not just making things up, but that raises all sorts of questions; as said above, these sources tend to be based on early ideas or scripts and are subject to change even if the reports on them were truthfully saying what the production team ''thought'' they were going to do, or might be scenes that even get filmed, but ultimately deleted and possibly becoming deleted scenes that are in fact contradicted by scenes that appear in the final episode rendering them totally non-canonical; i.e. what if someone was on the set and saw the alternate cut of "Pegasus" where Boomer ''actually'' gets raped, then left the set and did not see that ''another'' take of this was filmed where she gets saved at the last minute?...this spoiler source would honestly report that they saw a scene where Boomer gets raped...however even though this scene was filmed, another scene was filmed which completely contradicted it and it is no longer real (as opposed to like, the deleted scenes such as when Roslin gets "Lest We Forget" from Billy in "33", which it appears CAN be thought of as more or less canonical and RDM said was only deleted for time reasons). So, the thing we really need to do is open '''another, more generic discussion on what to do about sources and spoilers'''.

My thoughts on the subject: Generally, we should keep spoiler information confined to news and season 3 pages; by it's very nature the season 3 page is right now filled with spoilers, and people going there are looking for them, and can see the spoiler sign on top. Also, *individual episode entries* for episodes that have not aired yet, such as "Occupation", are obviously going to contain spoilers and people go there to look for them, although even then *gigantic* spoilers should be in a highlighted spoiler-text box so you have to highlight ''specific'' plot information to see it. Once and a while there will be some exceptions where we ''can'' keep spoiler info on a character page, i.e. {{spoiltext|Number Three where Lucy Lawless says she'll be a character like God, and do this for a MAJOR 10 episode arc.}}

We should be very sparing about allowing spoiler info like this off of the upcoming season and news pages. ***Still, '''I think our current spoiler warning policy is more or less okay in turns of placement'''.

What we need to really focus on is tagging our sources.

{{spoiltext|I mean, Lucy Lawless said the above thing in ''an interview'' and thus it is okay to add to a page. However, KR's recent comments about what Starbuck is doing in various season 3 episodes should '''definately not be added to the Starbuck page until they are confirmed by production photos''', but still will appear on season 3, news, and season 3 episode pages. }}

Ultimately, I think we actually have to run KoenigRules' spoilers: Gateworld, Galaticastation, and most other Battlestar Galactica news sites all tend to run them within a few days. We'd be seen as less reliable about our info if someone could get better info from somewhere else. ***I think the best idea would be to '''run these annonymous source spoilers only *after* an official news site like Gateworld or Galacticastation has already run them''', like the day after they run them, we report that "Gateworld reported this story, it came from a radio interview which gave news from an anonymous source".

Sort of like the "Citation needed" tag, which appears in the article but as a little super-script? I think we need a new one of those which says "Information from an anonymous source, not confirmed" or something to that effect. Well those are just my early thoughts on the subject. Bottom line: ESSENTIALLY, KR does seem to have a real spoiler source, though he won't reveal it. We need to figure out how to handle anonymous sources like this. We should remove this vote as new information we've gotten has shed more light on the matter, and we should refocus this onto a more ''generic'' "who do we handle anonymous spoilers" discussion on our sources page. I agree with Farago and SteelViper. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:49, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
:Maybe you should wrap the actual spoiler content in the above in spoiler tags. I hadn't read some of that yet (and try to avoid it).--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:04, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:Merv writes: ''I think that a new subsection on our sources policy page should be openned up to discuss these questions raised in more detail.''
:The Citation Jihad ''is'' our sources policy page, and we're having that discussion right now. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:14, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

::I meant a new subheading. (I will find those spoiltexts SV...)--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:19, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
:::If we allow a spolier to be listed like this it would be moot to what we are. This is not even offical. Spoliers with cast memebers are offical. We become something we are not supposed to be. If I reported annoymously that I heard BSG Wiki was closing and it was annoymous source, it could be anyone, however int his case, Joe is the only one. So a reported would ask joe is BSG closing, or joe would see it and he would look to see who spread that rumor because the fact is not true. Just put yourself in RDM shoes. What would he say to the production staff. Please do not leak spoliers. Actors are bound by the [[Wikipedia:SAG]] contracts in which they why can't reveal sources otherwise they can be seriously fined. They do comment on the show and what their characeter does, but not the spolt details itself. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:31, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::All spoilers should be sourced. If that source is anonymous, that should probably be specifically, explicitly noted, but I cannot see how it would hurt to include them if they are so marked. Each reader can then judge how much stock to put in an anonymous source individually, since it's a point on which reasonable people can differ. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 15:53, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::: If you don't mind spoiler's read the two reports. One is from The [[Season 3 (2006-07)]] page and the other is from the new discussion.

{{spoiltext|According to Ron D. Moore's podcast of the Captain's Hand, Apollo will continue to be the Commander of the Pegasus well into Season 3.}}
This goes totally against
{{spoiltext|

KR: It's not— I don't think you're going to have a Galactica spinoff

SO: Uh oh. Well, I mean, they could've done a spinoff with the Pegasus if they'd wanted to, they could've done some other things, but I mean even that as fan fiction—

KR: Did you say "Pegasus"?

SO: Uh oh.

KR: Did you say "Pegasus"? Episode 303.

SO: Uh oh.

KR: Pegasus is destroyed.

SO: Oh no, you're kidding me! Who's on it when it gets destroyed?

KR: Don't know. But it is sent— my source says it is sent on a collision course to a Cylon base ship so that the Galactica can get away.

}}
Goes totally against an offical spoiler. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:13, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
:Possiblities: (1) Plans have changed since RDM made that podcast, (2) Plans have not changed, the producers feel that three episodes are enough to show Lee's ups and downs of command, (3) Keonigrules' source is flatly mistaken or (4) didn't get the details right (it's a Pegasus Viper that is sacrificed, or something like that). --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:58, 26 April 2006 (EST)

=== From Joe ===

Well, I've created {{tl|spoileranony}} with the following wording:

{{spoileranony}}

Basically, I feel that as long as we can cite a source for the rumor, we should report it as such. Care must be taken to ensure that we inform our readers that this information is rumor and speculation. Here are the criteria I'd prefer we use:

# As so long as it is reported on a valid news source (Gateworld, HNR, S2D), we can report it as well.
# We must take care to indicate that these are rumors. Therefore they may or may not be accurate. (Templates such as {{tl|spoileranony}} reflect this view.)
# We must make sure that we are not the primary source for these rumors -- we aren't a news and rumors site. We're a reference. We summarize and scrutinized what's been reported, nothing more, nothing less. (I guess I'm repeating point 1, but I don't think I can emphasize this enough.)

I think we may have to create a page specifically dealing with rumors, such as [[Battlestar Wiki:Rumor Policy]]. Thoughts?

So that's what I have to say on that subject... Unless anything else comes to mind. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:34, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:Page takes a second to create... :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:41, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
::{{tl|Episode List}} - needs to be updated. I posted a suggestion to split up the three seasons because spoliers and title names should be inclduded. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:46, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::I agree with the three points Joe has listed here. I'm unsure on precise implementation though but we'll be hammering that out for a while. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 16:50, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:First, let me address some of your points above:
:#What the heck is a valid news source? Anyone can start a blog and be a "valid news source". This goes back to the credibility/reputation problem.
:#If we do decide to permit anonymous spoilers, an ostentatious warning banner is the last thing we need. This is alread taken care of by the spoiler and spoiltext tags we already have. The anonymity of the source should simply be noted in the citation.
:I'm afraid I'm still against anonymous sources. If we report anonymous spoilers, we ''must'' take into account the reputation of the poster. Since we ''cannot'' do this in an objective and non-arbitrary manner, we therefore cannot report anonymous spoilers.
:Lastly, there is nothing that we would cover in a "Rumor" policy that we couldn't cover here. Let's not spread ourselves thin. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

: "What the heck is a valid news source?" A very good question indeed. In fact, you do raise many interesting points above and I believe we should consider very carefully whether or not we cite spoilers. I'm starting to reconsider that. Anyone else want to chime in? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:19, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:: I dislike spoilers and only read them because it's an effective necessity to edit here; they don't add anything that wouldn't be there after the episode anyway. My opinion on anonymous sources for them (under the assumption that spoilers in general will be cited) is above. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 20:43, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

Joe, I think it's time to wrap this thing up. Let's formally close the blacklist vote and come to a conclusion about our policy on anonymous sources. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:57, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

== The Rumor Vote ==

I am calling a vote on this issue; the '''blacklist vote is closed'''. Since it seems to be the consensus that we will not blacklist anyone, I am calling for a different vote, so as to make thing clear.

Here's the text of what we are voting on:

: Battlestar Wiki's primary goals do not include discerning which unofficial sources have valid information. Our primary goal is to report valid information in an encyclopedic medium. Due to this, we will not be citing rumors from any sources other than official channels (SCI-FI Channel, Ronald D. Moore, and current cast and crew). Any information from sources other than those in the list will be immediately removed from the wiki; actions which lead to the repeated reintroduction of said unofficial and unverifiable material will be dealt accordingly by an on-duty administrator.

=== Support ===

# [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:13, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
# [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:04, 2 May 2006 (CDT) Could not agree more.
# [[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:24, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
# [[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:52, 3 May 2006 (CDT)
# --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:53, 3 May 2006 (CDT) (If I'm understanding this right, we won't be ''reporting'' the rumors, let alone citing them?)
#*Well, that's my understanding Day, though I could be wrong. BTW, what if something like TVGuide gets word of such super-spoilers or from a different source entirely, then runs a story with them that has anonymous sources? I think that if a major publication runs it, the lid on such a spoiler would be blown so wide open that we can't contain it as its common knowledge. I mean they ran a story that Apollo would kiss Starbuck in "Home, Part I" a week before it happened, with a picture and everything. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:25, 3 May 2006 (CDT)
#**A picture would be pretty incontrovertible. I'm less inclined to take their word for it in the absence of corroborating evidence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:39, 3 May 2006 (CDT)
#***Agreed. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:47, 3 May 2006 (CDT)
# Absolutely! -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 09:44, 3 May 2006 (CDT)

=== Oppose ===

=== Neutral ===

Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad

2006-05-02T17:00:39Z

Mazzy: forgot to sign it

*[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01|Archive 1 (September 29th, 2005 to Present)]]:

:[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Citation Consistency|Citation Consistency]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Request for name change|Request for name change]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#BSG: The Magazine|BSG: The Magazine]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Citation Format|Citation Format]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Character Ages|Character Ages]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Railguns|Railguns]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Twelve Lords of Kobol|Twelve Lords of Kobol]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Magazine Content|Magazine Content]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#To Do|To Do]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#BSG Books|BSG Books]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Sources namespace|Sources namespace]]


==Koenigrules / Hollywood North Report==
"Koenigrules" (KR) is the alias of Jim Iaccino, a popular reporter of BSG spoilers, whose reports are often cited and reposted by other sources. [http://lvpodcasts.autopodcaster.com/download.php?filename=Subject_2_Discussion_04_11_2006.mp3/Subject_2_Discussion_04_11_2006.mp3 Recent comments] made on the "[http://www.subject2discussion.com/ Subject 2 Discussion]" segment of the "[http://www.lvrocks.com/ LV Rocks]" radio program (transcribed at [[Sources:Subject 2 Discussion, 11 April 2006]]) raised the possibility that KR is merely re-reporting publically available information, and does not appear to be a credible primary source.

[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] investigated this possibility, and posted his findings to [[Talk:Precipice#Question about Koenigrules]]. [[User:Peter Farago|I]] raised the possibility of instating a policy against citing KR's reports as credible sources on Battlestar Wiki, which was seconded by [[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]].

Consequently, I am opening a formal vote here on the matter. Please review [[Sources:Subject 2 Discussion, 11 April 2006]], its putative [http://www.nowcasting.com/sides/Episodic/BATTLESTAR%20GALACTICA/301%20Occupation/Selloi_Dedona_4pgs.pdf source material], and The Merovingian's comments on [[Talk:Precipice#Question about Koenigrules]] prior to casting your vote, and feel free to raise any questions below. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:18, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update:''' Koenigrules has responded to a number of our concerns via e-mail. You can read my correspondence with him at [[Sources:Correspondence with Jim Iaccino]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:36, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 2:''' I will be transcribing KR's appearance on tonight's Subject 2 Discussion either later tonight or early tomorrow, and offer my considered opinion afterwards. I may request that the current "blacklist" vote be closed and recast as a more general discussion on the appropriateness of anonymous sources at battlestar wiki. Rebuttals will be welcome. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:05, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 3:''' KR's latest appearance has been transcribed to [[Sources:Subject 2 Discussion, 25 April 2006]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:45, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 4:''' My final opinion is available at [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad#From Peter]]. I have changed my vote to "Oppose" and have supported Joe's suggestion of closing this vote and moving the topic of discussion to the appropriateness of anonymous sources. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:25, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

===Blacklist Vote===

====In favor of a policy against citing KR as a primary source====
*<del>[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:36, 19 April 2006 (CDT) - I feel like this guy betrayed us. And it's getting worse; 4-5 news sites report things he says as fact; he is not helping at all. Dogger said: "''He often fails to differentiate what he is reporting from his own speculation, an oversight compounded by the fact that his speculation is hampered by a lack of attention to detail.''"-->He put that more clearly than I could. Way to go Dogger. :)</del>
*<del>[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:11, 20 April 2006 (CDT) If he originates nothing, we lose nothing by not citing him.</del>
*<strike>[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:34, 20 April 2006 (CDT) - We do NOT claim to be a primary source here, and everything that is stated as fact should be citable elsewhere. Our sources are therefore our foundation, so they should be held to a high standard.</strike>
#[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:30, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:21, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 03:16, 21 April 2006 (CDT) I'm against the publication of anything except the facts.
# [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 17:12, 21 April 2006 (CDT) This is site is a reference, it would be misleading to publish anything other than citable information. I would vote the same no matter who we were talking about and spoilers without a named source seem to be a chance of forever cataloging misinformation. If this were a vote about sources and not a person I would be more comfortable but as it stands, I don't feel I can change my vote in good faith. I think spoilers except ones coming directly from writers or cast should be left off all together. If there is a more appropriate way for me to express this than this vote, I will consider changing it if not this is my input.-- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 12:00, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 17:15, 21 April 2006 (CDT) I must concur. Too much flotsam.
#*[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 20:38, 21 April 2006 (CDT) <del>I've never heard KR 'reveal' anything that I haven't already seen from another source. I have always seen him as just somebody who reads the same things I read and then repeats them in another venue, but with an extra helping of certainty.</del> He often fails to differentiate what he is reporting from his own speculation, an oversight compounded by the fact that his speculation is hampered by a lack of attention to detail. <del>Perhaps what he does might have some value as a 'digest' of what is being talked about, but I don't see why anyone but the most naive listener would consider him as a primary source.</del>
#*I have struck out parts of my comments that seem to have been proven wrong by some of the history presented in the thread on Skiffy. However, I cannot in good conscience change my vote because of the simple fact that I don't think that anyone claiming an anonymous source should really be considered a primary source, even if that source is genuine. Perhaps 'blacklist' is the wrong word. I simply see this as a test case for what is the appropriate kind of evidence that should be cited as authoritative. Singling out KR is probably unfair, but that doesn't change what I honestly think to be not an appropriate primary source for a wiki. If there were a vote to have a policy against citing any anonymous source as a primary source, then I would be in favour of that too. I consider this vote to be just an example of what I think should be an overall principle. For example, if KR were to name his source, then I don't see any reason not to consider citing that information. The problem I have is not with KR's honesty in particular -- it's with the idea of citing a source without giving the reader the benefit of evaluating its reliability, and that includes anonymity as well as the mixing of facts with speculation.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 19:36, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#*<del>[[User:Gouge|Frankie Gouge]] 02:20, 22 April 2006 (EDT) Credibility is too hard to earn to risk needlessly. Plenty of other sites to get speculative spoilers. </del>
#[[User:Bowersj8|Bowersj8]] 14:31, 22 April 2006 (EDT)
#[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:40, 25 April 2006 (CDT) I listened enough to the radio show. (All Annoymous Sources too...)

====Opposed====
#[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 22:21, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:41, 26 April 2006 (CDT) Individual blacklisting is not appropriate for this case.
#[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 13:49, 26 April 2006 (CDT) It seems he does originate things after all.
#[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:09, 26 April 2006 (CDT) Let's not single out KR on the issue, but we do need to address the issue of anonymous sources (see below).
#[[User:Adedward|Adedward]] 23:28, 28 April 2006 (CDT)

====Abstain====
#[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 07:33, 23 April 2006 (CDT) Changed to abstain because I don't feel I know enough about this issue to choose either way.
#[[User:Quig|Quig]] 10:09, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:53, 20 April 2006 (CDT) After reading the unfortunate thread on the Skiffy board and the dialgoue established between Peter and KR, I will abstain until I determine whether or not this whole thing was worth the heartache for all concerned.
#[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:39, 23 April 2006 (CDT)As I've offered to give KR benefit of the doubt in compromise if he'd just be more mindful that at times when he was speculating or when he was giving spoilers was confusing, I'm switching my vote to abstain.
#[[User:Gouge|Frankie Gouge]] 16:05, 24 April 2006 (EDT)
#[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:58, 26 April 2006 (EST)

===Motion by The Merovingian===
While KoenigRules and several of his collleagues insist that he does indeed have access to some sort of spoilers, all of them still will not confirm the veracity of these sources. Seeing as this is what they would do both if they were REAL and if they were NOT REAL sources, we thus arrive at an impasse. Therefore, I want to find some civil compromise over this: I'm a Uniter, not a Divider, and if we start turning on each other Rick Berman's new crackpot scheme to make Star Trek XI: Starfleet Academy will eat us BSG fans alive. '''Proposal''': If KoenigRules promises to be more careful in the future in his interviews, to *'''make it clear'''* when he is giving away '''direct information from his source(s)''', and when he is making a '''speculation''' ''based'' on either this purported source material, ''or'' just his own personal '''opinion''', we will reverse our decision to hold a vote to reject him as a reliable source. For example, if KoenigRules says in an interview "I think Baltar is a Cylon", he should really make it clear that that is just his opinion and not supported by any spoiler source information that he might have, as news sites might miscontrue his comments and lead to a world of trouble. However, the matter of HollyWoodNorthReport itself, which has come under frequent attack from many sites for improperly forgetting to use citations when they source material from other fansites, should be considered a separate matter.

I hope we can all agree to this.

:I don't think this subissue needs a vote. Koenigrules has indicated to me that he'll be able to reply here by monday. If he can adequately address the concerns we've raised, then naturally, the above discussion will be re-evaluated in light of that. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:21, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

====Support====
#--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:48, 22 April 2006 (CDT)

====Oppose====

== On anonymous sources ==

In lieu of all this, I am thinking of further clarifying the section defining what sources we should and should not use on the wiki. In particular, sources that are anonymous should not be referenced (this is fairly common sense, but isn't explicitly stated0. Also, for reference, we should probably add a definitive list of sources, grouped by categories from "uses anonymous source" to "trusted primary sources". (We have a list such as this already on the Citation page, though it could be better defined in my mind. ) Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:49, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
:I agree (though I don't know how to set that up using wiki code).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:46, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
::We would set it up just like the "Image tagging policy" page. The only question is how do we define what is legit and what is not? If we consider how big the internet and how vast information can be found, anyone who reports on infomration at a regular basis could be considered legit, as long as the information is true. (i.e. Gateworld vs. HNR). This would also not benifit the little people. So I am not really a fan of this, but in light of the problem with spoilers vs. fact, this might be needed. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:02, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Well it now seems likely that KR does indeed have a source: he's been heavily involved since the Miniseries, and was on the original nuBSG fan page. What threw me in all of this is that that site **no longer exists**, so when I was trying to fact check his credibility it didn't come up. He still cannot reveal his source without compromising it, so I think Joe's "annonymous source" spoiler tag idea might be best. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:41, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I think anytime something can be better defined, it is a plus to the accuracy of the project. =)-- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 12:02, 24 April 2006 (CDT)

Everyone I think this has been resolved after our contact with KoenigRules, and we should bring down the site notice on the Main Page that there's a vote going on regarding KR, as I think things have been resolved already and this would only confuse newcomers. KR seems entirely on the level to me now, and we should put this past and move on to other work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:40, 24 April 2006 (CDT)

:Absolutely not. This remains an important issue. Tomorrow night, I will transcribe his appearance on S2D and offer my final opinion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:13, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

===From Peter===

Alright then. Having spoken with KR and listened to his latest podcast, the following is now clear to me:
*KR is not merely re-reporting information gleaned from other sources available to the public. The overlap between the information in the Selloi Dedona casting side and the report made on the 11th is remarkable, but the information he supplied on the 25th cannot be accounted for in light of other publicly available material.
*KR asserts that he has a single, anonymous source for all his reports.
*KR has complied with every request we've made of him, clearly separating his personal speculation from information supplied by his source.

It is therefore my opinion that he has done everything we can reasonably expect him to do, considering the anonymity of his source. I therefore believe that singling him out for blacklisting is inappropriate. I am changing my opinion on the above vote to "oppose", and I support Joe's desire to let the matter drop and refocus the discussion on the nature of our sources.

The [[Battlestar Wiki:Spoiler Policy|Spoiler Policy]], arrived at by grudging compromise last autumn, makes the following statement:

<blockquote>All spoiler information must have a source, whether in the form of a [[Wikipedia:URL|URL]] or a printed publication text, on the ''talk page'' of the spoilerific article. For printed publication text, a copy must be scanned and uploaded to the wiki in the form of a [[Wikipedia:JPG|JPG]] or [[Wikipedia:PNG|PNG]], and posted on the talk page of the article containing the spoilerific content.</blockquote>

Naturally, this arises from a desire for Battlestar Wiki to be a reliable source. The nature of a wiki allows anybody to contribute news and information, which must be checked by a policy such as this. It would obviously be unacceptable to allow anybody to pass off ungrounded speculation as reported fact, bolstered in reputation by dint of its presence on the wiki.

However, the very nature of spoiler reporting renders impossible the goal of maintaining perfect accuracy while reporting on episodes not scheduled to air for months to come. Even the very best sources we can hope to come by - legitimate casting sides and call sheets, for example - may refer to script elements that end up being cut from the final broadcast. Set reports may refer to scenes which are filmed but not included, or be reported out of context.

This is an inevitability to which we must resign ourselves if we intend to report on spoilers at all. However, it can be mitigated by requiring attribution to individual reporters. The real problem with KR's reports is the anonymity of his source. Casting sides and call sheets which arrive in their original format are unlikely to be forged, and set reports substantiated by photographic evidence, but all we have to go on with regard to KR is his good reputation.

I find it awkward to judge submissions here based on such a nebulous concept as the reporter's reputation, which is why my personal preference leans to reporting only information which can be backed up by tangible evidence or sourced to individuals involved in production. However, it should be acknowledged that by excluding anonymous reports such as KR's, we will be depriving ourselves of a prolific source of timely and apparently reasonably accurate information.

Because I consider this a real and important dilemma, I want to solicit comment form other users on the issue of anonymous sources. Particularly relevant questions:
*Should they be allowed at all?
*If so, should we discriminate between different sources on the basis of reputation?
*If so, how should reputation be determined, and who should be responsible for determining it?
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:22, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

: '''(Intro)''' First of all, I listened to the podcast live. There was quite a number of people in the chat channel inclduing myself. Along with KR, was merv, Ribby, and a few other people that were in the orginal flame war on SciFi.com.
: '''(Question 1)''' anonymous Spoliers are the worest. First of all, they are considered [[Wikipedia:Hearsay]] which means the context of the spolier or information can change and exaserations can be made by the reporter. '''(From the Podcast on Question #1)''' When I listened last night he said he took through notes on what his source said, to make sure he kept the information straight. Usually I have pretty good ears, but I didn't hear any paper's or him lean away from the phone.
: '''(Question 2)''' If gateworld to report this as a spolier, and like this podcast OR link even us as the source with US sourceing it as an annoymous source, [http://gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/04/secondandthirdepisodetitle.shtml Gateworld] did not list this current radio cast as the source for them knowning the new title. This page was posted a good few hours before the radio show. They have yet to cite or deem these current spoliers on the website.
: '''(Question 3)''' I can not answer this, because I think offical sites, offical news orginzations, are the best place. If this came from Katte's website, or Apollo's then I would be OMG, but it didn't. It came from a source that can not even verify if the spoliers are correct. Teasers are '''offical spoliers''', you can choose to watch them or not, but they are offical. RDM podcasts are offical, RDM blog. etc... etc..
: '''(Conclustion)''' If he was to go on the show stright till october, we would know all of Season 3 BEFORE it happened. For this, I voted to not allow KR be a source, even if another "anonymous" soruce, and only allow '''offical spoliers''' to be reported. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 13:45, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:I'm not that keen on using anonymous sources at all. I don't think it's realistic for us to be everything to everyone, and would rather see us strive to be the concise, accurate, organized repository of BSG knowledge (and let the new sites and forums handle the spoiler info). I could see maybe having a "news" pages with links to such spoilers, but actually putting content into the article that we have no way of verifying (and could prove to be false) seems like a stretch.
:Maybe there's a way for us to be able to "report" the information, without compromising our accuracy. We could, for example, limit spoiler postings to spoiler news areas (which nobody updates anyway), and obvious spoiler pages (like the next season, and upcoming episodes). People reading those pages '''expect''' spoiler information, as there is no canon information available yet. The important thing to keep in mind would be making sure that once the page passes out of the realm of spoilers into to normal article space (by having an airdate, etc), all normal citation requirements must apply. It is a double standard, but there's a clearly demarcated line that could be observed/enforced, and if the spoilers end up being false it only ends up affecting the temporal accuracy of that particular spoiler page, and not the long-term accuracy of the page once aired. I would still prefer not seeing any anonymous sources in the regular article space, though, as the maintenance issues involved would potentially leave false spoiler information in place after the event occurs.
:Also, I'd like to see the above vote closed (since the context since it's opening has changed quite dramatically). I'd rather not change my vote, I'd vote that way again given the same information, but "re-voting" based on the new information seems a bit of the Monday-morning quarterbacking ("I'd a double bagged it.")--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:47, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

::Spoilers are already quarantined into the episode guide pages; quarantining anonymous spoilers somewhere else seems excessive to me. I think we just need to decide one way or another. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:55, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::I didn't realize that was the case. I think I was remembering character pages like [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Helena_Cain&oldid=23108 this] that had spoiler boxes, and it's hard to edit them without running into the spoilers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
::::I'm mistaken. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:02, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

Having read everything you guys said and listening to the last show, here's my thoughts:
I entirely agree with the three points about KR Peter said; he met our requests and was careful about saying "I guess" "that's what I think", etc., and he incorporated it into his interview smoothly (didn't stop in his tracks and say "everyone be warned this is just what I think, websites shouldn't etc etc etc) which was good for him, not affecting his interview drastically. I think that worked out well for everyone. Nextly, I am actually now quite possitive that '''he does indeed have some sort of spoiler source''', the exact nature of which is of course unknown, but still it is now clear to me that he isn't just basing all of his information on casting sides and public information, but has a source no one else does. The real problem, then, has changed: how do we address spoilers which are based on a reporter who has a ''reputation'' of providing on the whole accurate spoilers ''in the past'', and uses an ''anonymous source'' which nonetheless seems to be a "real" source?
:"Should they be allowed at all? If so, should we discriminate between different sources on the basis of reputation? If so, how should reputation be determined, and who should be responsible for determining it?"
This was an important set of questions Peter, and I think that a new subsection on our sources policy page should be openned up to discuss these questions raised in more detail. '''Further, I agree entirely with you and Joe's feelings that this vote here should be "wiped", singling out a single person would be inappropriate, that we should "let the matter drop and refocus the discussion on the nature of our sources."'''

KR's sources thus seem to ''generally'' be real and he's not just making things up, but that raises all sorts of questions; as said above, these sources tend to be based on early ideas or scripts and are subject to change even if the reports on them were truthfully saying what the production team ''thought'' they were going to do, or might be scenes that even get filmed, but ultimately deleted and possibly becoming deleted scenes that are in fact contradicted by scenes that appear in the final episode rendering them totally non-canonical; i.e. what if someone was on the set and saw the alternate cut of "Pegasus" where Boomer ''actually'' gets raped, then left the set and did not see that ''another'' take of this was filmed where she gets saved at the last minute?...this spoiler source would honestly report that they saw a scene where Boomer gets raped...however even though this scene was filmed, another scene was filmed which completely contradicted it and it is no longer real (as opposed to like, the deleted scenes such as when Roslin gets "Lest We Forget" from Billy in "33", which it appears CAN be thought of as more or less canonical and RDM said was only deleted for time reasons). So, the thing we really need to do is open '''another, more generic discussion on what to do about sources and spoilers'''.

My thoughts on the subject: Generally, we should keep spoiler information confined to news and season 3 pages; by it's very nature the season 3 page is right now filled with spoilers, and people going there are looking for them, and can see the spoiler sign on top. Also, *individual episode entries* for episodes that have not aired yet, such as "Occupation", are obviously going to contain spoilers and people go there to look for them, although even then *gigantic* spoilers should be in a highlighted spoiler-text box so you have to highlight ''specific'' plot information to see it. Once and a while there will be some exceptions where we ''can'' keep spoiler info on a character page, i.e. {{spoiltext|Number Three where Lucy Lawless says she'll be a character like God, and do this for a MAJOR 10 episode arc.}}

We should be very sparing about allowing spoiler info like this off of the upcoming season and news pages. ***Still, '''I think our current spoiler warning policy is more or less okay in turns of placement'''.

What we need to really focus on is tagging our sources.

{{spoiltext|I mean, Lucy Lawless said the above thing in ''an interview'' and thus it is okay to add to a page. However, KR's recent comments about what Starbuck is doing in various season 3 episodes should '''definately not be added to the Starbuck page until they are confirmed by production photos''', but still will appear on season 3, news, and season 3 episode pages. }}

Ultimately, I think we actually have to run KoenigRules' spoilers: Gateworld, Galaticastation, and most other Battlestar Galactica news sites all tend to run them within a few days. We'd be seen as less reliable about our info if someone could get better info from somewhere else. ***I think the best idea would be to '''run these annonymous source spoilers only *after* an official news site like Gateworld or Galacticastation has already run them''', like the day after they run them, we report that "Gateworld reported this story, it came from a radio interview which gave news from an anonymous source".

Sort of like the "Citation needed" tag, which appears in the article but as a little super-script? I think we need a new one of those which says "Information from an anonymous source, not confirmed" or something to that effect. Well those are just my early thoughts on the subject. Bottom line: ESSENTIALLY, KR does seem to have a real spoiler source, though he won't reveal it. We need to figure out how to handle anonymous sources like this. We should remove this vote as new information we've gotten has shed more light on the matter, and we should refocus this onto a more ''generic'' "who do we handle anonymous spoilers" discussion on our sources page. I agree with Farago and SteelViper. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:49, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
:Maybe you should wrap the actual spoiler content in the above in spoiler tags. I hadn't read some of that yet (and try to avoid it).--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:04, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:Merv writes: ''I think that a new subsection on our sources policy page should be openned up to discuss these questions raised in more detail.''
:The Citation Jihad ''is'' our sources policy page, and we're having that discussion right now. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:14, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

::I meant a new subheading. (I will find those spoiltexts SV...)--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:19, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
:::If we allow a spolier to be listed like this it would be moot to what we are. This is not even offical. Spoliers with cast memebers are offical. We become something we are not supposed to be. If I reported annoymously that I heard BSG Wiki was closing and it was annoymous source, it could be anyone, however int his case, Joe is the only one. So a reported would ask joe is BSG closing, or joe would see it and he would look to see who spread that rumor because the fact is not true. Just put yourself in RDM shoes. What would he say to the production staff. Please do not leak spoliers. Actors are bound by the [[Wikipedia:SAG]] contracts in which they why can't reveal sources otherwise they can be seriously fined. They do comment on the show and what their characeter does, but not the spolt details itself. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:31, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::All spoilers should be sourced. If that source is anonymous, that should probably be specifically, explicitly noted, but I cannot see how it would hurt to include them if they are so marked. Each reader can then judge how much stock to put in an anonymous source individually, since it's a point on which reasonable people can differ. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 15:53, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::: If you don't mind spoiler's read the two reports. One is from The [[Season 3 (2006-07)]] page and the other is from the new discussion.

{{spoiltext|According to Ron D. Moore's podcast of the Captain's Hand, Apollo will continue to be the Commander of the Pegasus well into Season 3.}}
This goes totally against
{{spoiltext|

KR: It's not— I don't think you're going to have a Galactica spinoff

SO: Uh oh. Well, I mean, they could've done a spinoff with the Pegasus if they'd wanted to, they could've done some other things, but I mean even that as fan fiction—

KR: Did you say "Pegasus"?

SO: Uh oh.

KR: Did you say "Pegasus"? Episode 303.

SO: Uh oh.

KR: Pegasus is destroyed.

SO: Oh no, you're kidding me! Who's on it when it gets destroyed?

KR: Don't know. But it is sent— my source says it is sent on a collision course to a Cylon base ship so that the Galactica can get away.

}}
Goes totally against an offical spoiler. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:13, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
:Possiblities: (1) Plans have changed since RDM made that podcast, (2) Plans have not changed, the producers feel that three episodes are enough to show Lee's ups and downs of command, (3) Keonigrules' source is flatly mistaken or (4) didn't get the details right (it's a Pegasus Viper that is sacrificed, or something like that). --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:58, 26 April 2006 (EST)

=== From Joe ===

Well, I've created {{tl|spoileranony}} with the following wording:

{{spoileranony}}

Basically, I feel that as long as we can cite a source for the rumor, we should report it as such. Care must be taken to ensure that we inform our readers that this information is rumor and speculation. Here are the criteria I'd prefer we use:

# As so long as it is reported on a valid news source (Gateworld, HNR, S2D), we can report it as well.
# We must take care to indicate that these are rumors. Therefore they may or may not be accurate. (Templates such as {{tl|spoileranony}} reflect this view.)
# We must make sure that we are not the primary source for these rumors -- we aren't a news and rumors site. We're a reference. We summarize and scrutinized what's been reported, nothing more, nothing less. (I guess I'm repeating point 1, but I don't think I can emphasize this enough.)

I think we may have to create a page specifically dealing with rumors, such as [[Battlestar Wiki:Rumor Policy]]. Thoughts?

So that's what I have to say on that subject... Unless anything else comes to mind. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:34, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:Page takes a second to create... :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:41, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
::{{tl|Episode List}} - needs to be updated. I posted a suggestion to split up the three seasons because spoliers and title names should be inclduded. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:46, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::I agree with the three points Joe has listed here. I'm unsure on precise implementation though but we'll be hammering that out for a while. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 16:50, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:First, let me address some of your points above:
:#What the heck is a valid news source? Anyone can start a blog and be a "valid news source". This goes back to the credibility/reputation problem.
:#If we do decide to permit anonymous spoilers, an ostentatious warning banner is the last thing we need. This is alread taken care of by the spoiler and spoiltext tags we already have. The anonymity of the source should simply be noted in the citation.
:I'm afraid I'm still against anonymous sources. If we report anonymous spoilers, we ''must'' take into account the reputation of the poster. Since we ''cannot'' do this in an objective and non-arbitrary manner, we therefore cannot report anonymous spoilers.
:Lastly, there is nothing that we would cover in a "Rumor" policy that we couldn't cover here. Let's not spread ourselves thin. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

: "What the heck is a valid news source?" A very good question indeed. In fact, you do raise many interesting points above and I believe we should consider very carefully whether or not we cite spoilers. I'm starting to reconsider that. Anyone else want to chime in? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:19, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:: I dislike spoilers and only read them because it's an effective necessity to edit here; they don't add anything that wouldn't be there after the episode anyway. My opinion on anonymous sources for them (under the assumption that spoilers in general will be cited) is above. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 20:43, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

Joe, I think it's time to wrap this thing up. Let's formally close the blacklist vote and come to a conclusion about our policy on anonymous sources. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:57, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad

2006-05-02T16:59:53Z

Mazzy: /* In favor of a policy against citing KR as a primary source */

*[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01|Archive 1 (September 29th, 2005 to Present)]]:

:[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Citation Consistency|Citation Consistency]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Request for name change|Request for name change]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#BSG: The Magazine|BSG: The Magazine]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Citation Format|Citation Format]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Character Ages|Character Ages]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Railguns|Railguns]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Twelve Lords of Kobol|Twelve Lords of Kobol]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Magazine Content|Magazine Content]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#To Do|To Do]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#BSG Books|BSG Books]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Sources namespace|Sources namespace]]


==Koenigrules / Hollywood North Report==
"Koenigrules" (KR) is the alias of Jim Iaccino, a popular reporter of BSG spoilers, whose reports are often cited and reposted by other sources. [http://lvpodcasts.autopodcaster.com/download.php?filename=Subject_2_Discussion_04_11_2006.mp3/Subject_2_Discussion_04_11_2006.mp3 Recent comments] made on the "[http://www.subject2discussion.com/ Subject 2 Discussion]" segment of the "[http://www.lvrocks.com/ LV Rocks]" radio program (transcribed at [[Sources:Subject 2 Discussion, 11 April 2006]]) raised the possibility that KR is merely re-reporting publically available information, and does not appear to be a credible primary source.

[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] investigated this possibility, and posted his findings to [[Talk:Precipice#Question about Koenigrules]]. [[User:Peter Farago|I]] raised the possibility of instating a policy against citing KR's reports as credible sources on Battlestar Wiki, which was seconded by [[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]].

Consequently, I am opening a formal vote here on the matter. Please review [[Sources:Subject 2 Discussion, 11 April 2006]], its putative [http://www.nowcasting.com/sides/Episodic/BATTLESTAR%20GALACTICA/301%20Occupation/Selloi_Dedona_4pgs.pdf source material], and The Merovingian's comments on [[Talk:Precipice#Question about Koenigrules]] prior to casting your vote, and feel free to raise any questions below. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:18, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update:''' Koenigrules has responded to a number of our concerns via e-mail. You can read my correspondence with him at [[Sources:Correspondence with Jim Iaccino]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:36, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 2:''' I will be transcribing KR's appearance on tonight's Subject 2 Discussion either later tonight or early tomorrow, and offer my considered opinion afterwards. I may request that the current "blacklist" vote be closed and recast as a more general discussion on the appropriateness of anonymous sources at battlestar wiki. Rebuttals will be welcome. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:05, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 3:''' KR's latest appearance has been transcribed to [[Sources:Subject 2 Discussion, 25 April 2006]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:45, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 4:''' My final opinion is available at [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad#From Peter]]. I have changed my vote to "Oppose" and have supported Joe's suggestion of closing this vote and moving the topic of discussion to the appropriateness of anonymous sources. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:25, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

===Blacklist Vote===

====In favor of a policy against citing KR as a primary source====
*<del>[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:36, 19 April 2006 (CDT) - I feel like this guy betrayed us. And it's getting worse; 4-5 news sites report things he says as fact; he is not helping at all. Dogger said: "''He often fails to differentiate what he is reporting from his own speculation, an oversight compounded by the fact that his speculation is hampered by a lack of attention to detail.''"-->He put that more clearly than I could. Way to go Dogger. :)</del>
*<del>[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:11, 20 April 2006 (CDT) If he originates nothing, we lose nothing by not citing him.</del>
*<strike>[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:34, 20 April 2006 (CDT) - We do NOT claim to be a primary source here, and everything that is stated as fact should be citable elsewhere. Our sources are therefore our foundation, so they should be held to a high standard.</strike>
#[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:30, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:21, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 03:16, 21 April 2006 (CDT) I'm against the publication of anything except the facts.
# [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 17:12, 21 April 2006 (CDT) This is site is a reference, it would be misleading to publish anything other than citable information. I would vote the same no matter who we were talking about and spoilers without a named source seem to be a chance of forever cataloging misinformation. If this were a vote about sources and not a person I would be more comfortable but as it stands, I don't feel I can change my vote in good faith. I think spoilers except ones coming directly from writers or cast should be left off all together. If there is a more appropriate way for me to express this than this vote, I will consider changing it if not this is my input.
#[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 17:15, 21 April 2006 (CDT) I must concur. Too much flotsam.
#*[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 20:38, 21 April 2006 (CDT) <del>I've never heard KR 'reveal' anything that I haven't already seen from another source. I have always seen him as just somebody who reads the same things I read and then repeats them in another venue, but with an extra helping of certainty.</del> He often fails to differentiate what he is reporting from his own speculation, an oversight compounded by the fact that his speculation is hampered by a lack of attention to detail. <del>Perhaps what he does might have some value as a 'digest' of what is being talked about, but I don't see why anyone but the most naive listener would consider him as a primary source.</del>
#*I have struck out parts of my comments that seem to have been proven wrong by some of the history presented in the thread on Skiffy. However, I cannot in good conscience change my vote because of the simple fact that I don't think that anyone claiming an anonymous source should really be considered a primary source, even if that source is genuine. Perhaps 'blacklist' is the wrong word. I simply see this as a test case for what is the appropriate kind of evidence that should be cited as authoritative. Singling out KR is probably unfair, but that doesn't change what I honestly think to be not an appropriate primary source for a wiki. If there were a vote to have a policy against citing any anonymous source as a primary source, then I would be in favour of that too. I consider this vote to be just an example of what I think should be an overall principle. For example, if KR were to name his source, then I don't see any reason not to consider citing that information. The problem I have is not with KR's honesty in particular -- it's with the idea of citing a source without giving the reader the benefit of evaluating its reliability, and that includes anonymity as well as the mixing of facts with speculation.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 19:36, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#*<del>[[User:Gouge|Frankie Gouge]] 02:20, 22 April 2006 (EDT) Credibility is too hard to earn to risk needlessly. Plenty of other sites to get speculative spoilers. </del>
#[[User:Bowersj8|Bowersj8]] 14:31, 22 April 2006 (EDT)
#[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:40, 25 April 2006 (CDT) I listened enough to the radio show. (All Annoymous Sources too...)

====Opposed====
#[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 22:21, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:41, 26 April 2006 (CDT) Individual blacklisting is not appropriate for this case.
#[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 13:49, 26 April 2006 (CDT) It seems he does originate things after all.
#[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:09, 26 April 2006 (CDT) Let's not single out KR on the issue, but we do need to address the issue of anonymous sources (see below).
#[[User:Adedward|Adedward]] 23:28, 28 April 2006 (CDT)

====Abstain====
#[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 07:33, 23 April 2006 (CDT) Changed to abstain because I don't feel I know enough about this issue to choose either way.
#[[User:Quig|Quig]] 10:09, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:53, 20 April 2006 (CDT) After reading the unfortunate thread on the Skiffy board and the dialgoue established between Peter and KR, I will abstain until I determine whether or not this whole thing was worth the heartache for all concerned.
#[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:39, 23 April 2006 (CDT)As I've offered to give KR benefit of the doubt in compromise if he'd just be more mindful that at times when he was speculating or when he was giving spoilers was confusing, I'm switching my vote to abstain.
#[[User:Gouge|Frankie Gouge]] 16:05, 24 April 2006 (EDT)
#[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:58, 26 April 2006 (EST)

===Motion by The Merovingian===
While KoenigRules and several of his collleagues insist that he does indeed have access to some sort of spoilers, all of them still will not confirm the veracity of these sources. Seeing as this is what they would do both if they were REAL and if they were NOT REAL sources, we thus arrive at an impasse. Therefore, I want to find some civil compromise over this: I'm a Uniter, not a Divider, and if we start turning on each other Rick Berman's new crackpot scheme to make Star Trek XI: Starfleet Academy will eat us BSG fans alive. '''Proposal''': If KoenigRules promises to be more careful in the future in his interviews, to *'''make it clear'''* when he is giving away '''direct information from his source(s)''', and when he is making a '''speculation''' ''based'' on either this purported source material, ''or'' just his own personal '''opinion''', we will reverse our decision to hold a vote to reject him as a reliable source. For example, if KoenigRules says in an interview "I think Baltar is a Cylon", he should really make it clear that that is just his opinion and not supported by any spoiler source information that he might have, as news sites might miscontrue his comments and lead to a world of trouble. However, the matter of HollyWoodNorthReport itself, which has come under frequent attack from many sites for improperly forgetting to use citations when they source material from other fansites, should be considered a separate matter.

I hope we can all agree to this.

:I don't think this subissue needs a vote. Koenigrules has indicated to me that he'll be able to reply here by monday. If he can adequately address the concerns we've raised, then naturally, the above discussion will be re-evaluated in light of that. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:21, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

====Support====
#--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:48, 22 April 2006 (CDT)

====Oppose====

== On anonymous sources ==

In lieu of all this, I am thinking of further clarifying the section defining what sources we should and should not use on the wiki. In particular, sources that are anonymous should not be referenced (this is fairly common sense, but isn't explicitly stated0. Also, for reference, we should probably add a definitive list of sources, grouped by categories from "uses anonymous source" to "trusted primary sources". (We have a list such as this already on the Citation page, though it could be better defined in my mind. ) Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:49, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
:I agree (though I don't know how to set that up using wiki code).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:46, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
::We would set it up just like the "Image tagging policy" page. The only question is how do we define what is legit and what is not? If we consider how big the internet and how vast information can be found, anyone who reports on infomration at a regular basis could be considered legit, as long as the information is true. (i.e. Gateworld vs. HNR). This would also not benifit the little people. So I am not really a fan of this, but in light of the problem with spoilers vs. fact, this might be needed. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:02, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Well it now seems likely that KR does indeed have a source: he's been heavily involved since the Miniseries, and was on the original nuBSG fan page. What threw me in all of this is that that site **no longer exists**, so when I was trying to fact check his credibility it didn't come up. He still cannot reveal his source without compromising it, so I think Joe's "annonymous source" spoiler tag idea might be best. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:41, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I think anytime something can be better defined, it is a plus to the accuracy of the project. =)-- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 12:02, 24 April 2006 (CDT)

Everyone I think this has been resolved after our contact with KoenigRules, and we should bring down the site notice on the Main Page that there's a vote going on regarding KR, as I think things have been resolved already and this would only confuse newcomers. KR seems entirely on the level to me now, and we should put this past and move on to other work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:40, 24 April 2006 (CDT)

:Absolutely not. This remains an important issue. Tomorrow night, I will transcribe his appearance on S2D and offer my final opinion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:13, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

===From Peter===

Alright then. Having spoken with KR and listened to his latest podcast, the following is now clear to me:
*KR is not merely re-reporting information gleaned from other sources available to the public. The overlap between the information in the Selloi Dedona casting side and the report made on the 11th is remarkable, but the information he supplied on the 25th cannot be accounted for in light of other publicly available material.
*KR asserts that he has a single, anonymous source for all his reports.
*KR has complied with every request we've made of him, clearly separating his personal speculation from information supplied by his source.

It is therefore my opinion that he has done everything we can reasonably expect him to do, considering the anonymity of his source. I therefore believe that singling him out for blacklisting is inappropriate. I am changing my opinion on the above vote to "oppose", and I support Joe's desire to let the matter drop and refocus the discussion on the nature of our sources.

The [[Battlestar Wiki:Spoiler Policy|Spoiler Policy]], arrived at by grudging compromise last autumn, makes the following statement:

<blockquote>All spoiler information must have a source, whether in the form of a [[Wikipedia:URL|URL]] or a printed publication text, on the ''talk page'' of the spoilerific article. For printed publication text, a copy must be scanned and uploaded to the wiki in the form of a [[Wikipedia:JPG|JPG]] or [[Wikipedia:PNG|PNG]], and posted on the talk page of the article containing the spoilerific content.</blockquote>

Naturally, this arises from a desire for Battlestar Wiki to be a reliable source. The nature of a wiki allows anybody to contribute news and information, which must be checked by a policy such as this. It would obviously be unacceptable to allow anybody to pass off ungrounded speculation as reported fact, bolstered in reputation by dint of its presence on the wiki.

However, the very nature of spoiler reporting renders impossible the goal of maintaining perfect accuracy while reporting on episodes not scheduled to air for months to come. Even the very best sources we can hope to come by - legitimate casting sides and call sheets, for example - may refer to script elements that end up being cut from the final broadcast. Set reports may refer to scenes which are filmed but not included, or be reported out of context.

This is an inevitability to which we must resign ourselves if we intend to report on spoilers at all. However, it can be mitigated by requiring attribution to individual reporters. The real problem with KR's reports is the anonymity of his source. Casting sides and call sheets which arrive in their original format are unlikely to be forged, and set reports substantiated by photographic evidence, but all we have to go on with regard to KR is his good reputation.

I find it awkward to judge submissions here based on such a nebulous concept as the reporter's reputation, which is why my personal preference leans to reporting only information which can be backed up by tangible evidence or sourced to individuals involved in production. However, it should be acknowledged that by excluding anonymous reports such as KR's, we will be depriving ourselves of a prolific source of timely and apparently reasonably accurate information.

Because I consider this a real and important dilemma, I want to solicit comment form other users on the issue of anonymous sources. Particularly relevant questions:
*Should they be allowed at all?
*If so, should we discriminate between different sources on the basis of reputation?
*If so, how should reputation be determined, and who should be responsible for determining it?
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:22, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

: '''(Intro)''' First of all, I listened to the podcast live. There was quite a number of people in the chat channel inclduing myself. Along with KR, was merv, Ribby, and a few other people that were in the orginal flame war on SciFi.com.
: '''(Question 1)''' anonymous Spoliers are the worest. First of all, they are considered [[Wikipedia:Hearsay]] which means the context of the spolier or information can change and exaserations can be made by the reporter. '''(From the Podcast on Question #1)''' When I listened last night he said he took through notes on what his source said, to make sure he kept the information straight. Usually I have pretty good ears, but I didn't hear any paper's or him lean away from the phone.
: '''(Question 2)''' If gateworld to report this as a spolier, and like this podcast OR link even us as the source with US sourceing it as an annoymous source, [http://gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/04/secondandthirdepisodetitle.shtml Gateworld] did not list this current radio cast as the source for them knowning the new title. This page was posted a good few hours before the radio show. They have yet to cite or deem these current spoliers on the website.
: '''(Question 3)''' I can not answer this, because I think offical sites, offical news orginzations, are the best place. If this came from Katte's website, or Apollo's then I would be OMG, but it didn't. It came from a source that can not even verify if the spoliers are correct. Teasers are '''offical spoliers''', you can choose to watch them or not, but they are offical. RDM podcasts are offical, RDM blog. etc... etc..
: '''(Conclustion)''' If he was to go on the show stright till october, we would know all of Season 3 BEFORE it happened. For this, I voted to not allow KR be a source, even if another "anonymous" soruce, and only allow '''offical spoliers''' to be reported. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 13:45, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:I'm not that keen on using anonymous sources at all. I don't think it's realistic for us to be everything to everyone, and would rather see us strive to be the concise, accurate, organized repository of BSG knowledge (and let the new sites and forums handle the spoiler info). I could see maybe having a "news" pages with links to such spoilers, but actually putting content into the article that we have no way of verifying (and could prove to be false) seems like a stretch.
:Maybe there's a way for us to be able to "report" the information, without compromising our accuracy. We could, for example, limit spoiler postings to spoiler news areas (which nobody updates anyway), and obvious spoiler pages (like the next season, and upcoming episodes). People reading those pages '''expect''' spoiler information, as there is no canon information available yet. The important thing to keep in mind would be making sure that once the page passes out of the realm of spoilers into to normal article space (by having an airdate, etc), all normal citation requirements must apply. It is a double standard, but there's a clearly demarcated line that could be observed/enforced, and if the spoilers end up being false it only ends up affecting the temporal accuracy of that particular spoiler page, and not the long-term accuracy of the page once aired. I would still prefer not seeing any anonymous sources in the regular article space, though, as the maintenance issues involved would potentially leave false spoiler information in place after the event occurs.
:Also, I'd like to see the above vote closed (since the context since it's opening has changed quite dramatically). I'd rather not change my vote, I'd vote that way again given the same information, but "re-voting" based on the new information seems a bit of the Monday-morning quarterbacking ("I'd a double bagged it.")--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:47, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

::Spoilers are already quarantined into the episode guide pages; quarantining anonymous spoilers somewhere else seems excessive to me. I think we just need to decide one way or another. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:55, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::I didn't realize that was the case. I think I was remembering character pages like [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Helena_Cain&oldid=23108 this] that had spoiler boxes, and it's hard to edit them without running into the spoilers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
::::I'm mistaken. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:02, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

Having read everything you guys said and listening to the last show, here's my thoughts:
I entirely agree with the three points about KR Peter said; he met our requests and was careful about saying "I guess" "that's what I think", etc., and he incorporated it into his interview smoothly (didn't stop in his tracks and say "everyone be warned this is just what I think, websites shouldn't etc etc etc) which was good for him, not affecting his interview drastically. I think that worked out well for everyone. Nextly, I am actually now quite possitive that '''he does indeed have some sort of spoiler source''', the exact nature of which is of course unknown, but still it is now clear to me that he isn't just basing all of his information on casting sides and public information, but has a source no one else does. The real problem, then, has changed: how do we address spoilers which are based on a reporter who has a ''reputation'' of providing on the whole accurate spoilers ''in the past'', and uses an ''anonymous source'' which nonetheless seems to be a "real" source?
:"Should they be allowed at all? If so, should we discriminate between different sources on the basis of reputation? If so, how should reputation be determined, and who should be responsible for determining it?"
This was an important set of questions Peter, and I think that a new subsection on our sources policy page should be openned up to discuss these questions raised in more detail. '''Further, I agree entirely with you and Joe's feelings that this vote here should be "wiped", singling out a single person would be inappropriate, that we should "let the matter drop and refocus the discussion on the nature of our sources."'''

KR's sources thus seem to ''generally'' be real and he's not just making things up, but that raises all sorts of questions; as said above, these sources tend to be based on early ideas or scripts and are subject to change even if the reports on them were truthfully saying what the production team ''thought'' they were going to do, or might be scenes that even get filmed, but ultimately deleted and possibly becoming deleted scenes that are in fact contradicted by scenes that appear in the final episode rendering them totally non-canonical; i.e. what if someone was on the set and saw the alternate cut of "Pegasus" where Boomer ''actually'' gets raped, then left the set and did not see that ''another'' take of this was filmed where she gets saved at the last minute?...this spoiler source would honestly report that they saw a scene where Boomer gets raped...however even though this scene was filmed, another scene was filmed which completely contradicted it and it is no longer real (as opposed to like, the deleted scenes such as when Roslin gets "Lest We Forget" from Billy in "33", which it appears CAN be thought of as more or less canonical and RDM said was only deleted for time reasons). So, the thing we really need to do is open '''another, more generic discussion on what to do about sources and spoilers'''.

My thoughts on the subject: Generally, we should keep spoiler information confined to news and season 3 pages; by it's very nature the season 3 page is right now filled with spoilers, and people going there are looking for them, and can see the spoiler sign on top. Also, *individual episode entries* for episodes that have not aired yet, such as "Occupation", are obviously going to contain spoilers and people go there to look for them, although even then *gigantic* spoilers should be in a highlighted spoiler-text box so you have to highlight ''specific'' plot information to see it. Once and a while there will be some exceptions where we ''can'' keep spoiler info on a character page, i.e. {{spoiltext|Number Three where Lucy Lawless says she'll be a character like God, and do this for a MAJOR 10 episode arc.}}

We should be very sparing about allowing spoiler info like this off of the upcoming season and news pages. ***Still, '''I think our current spoiler warning policy is more or less okay in turns of placement'''.

What we need to really focus on is tagging our sources.

{{spoiltext|I mean, Lucy Lawless said the above thing in ''an interview'' and thus it is okay to add to a page. However, KR's recent comments about what Starbuck is doing in various season 3 episodes should '''definately not be added to the Starbuck page until they are confirmed by production photos''', but still will appear on season 3, news, and season 3 episode pages. }}

Ultimately, I think we actually have to run KoenigRules' spoilers: Gateworld, Galaticastation, and most other Battlestar Galactica news sites all tend to run them within a few days. We'd be seen as less reliable about our info if someone could get better info from somewhere else. ***I think the best idea would be to '''run these annonymous source spoilers only *after* an official news site like Gateworld or Galacticastation has already run them''', like the day after they run them, we report that "Gateworld reported this story, it came from a radio interview which gave news from an anonymous source".

Sort of like the "Citation needed" tag, which appears in the article but as a little super-script? I think we need a new one of those which says "Information from an anonymous source, not confirmed" or something to that effect. Well those are just my early thoughts on the subject. Bottom line: ESSENTIALLY, KR does seem to have a real spoiler source, though he won't reveal it. We need to figure out how to handle anonymous sources like this. We should remove this vote as new information we've gotten has shed more light on the matter, and we should refocus this onto a more ''generic'' "who do we handle anonymous spoilers" discussion on our sources page. I agree with Farago and SteelViper. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:49, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
:Maybe you should wrap the actual spoiler content in the above in spoiler tags. I hadn't read some of that yet (and try to avoid it).--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:04, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:Merv writes: ''I think that a new subsection on our sources policy page should be openned up to discuss these questions raised in more detail.''
:The Citation Jihad ''is'' our sources policy page, and we're having that discussion right now. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:14, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

::I meant a new subheading. (I will find those spoiltexts SV...)--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:19, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
:::If we allow a spolier to be listed like this it would be moot to what we are. This is not even offical. Spoliers with cast memebers are offical. We become something we are not supposed to be. If I reported annoymously that I heard BSG Wiki was closing and it was annoymous source, it could be anyone, however int his case, Joe is the only one. So a reported would ask joe is BSG closing, or joe would see it and he would look to see who spread that rumor because the fact is not true. Just put yourself in RDM shoes. What would he say to the production staff. Please do not leak spoliers. Actors are bound by the [[Wikipedia:SAG]] contracts in which they why can't reveal sources otherwise they can be seriously fined. They do comment on the show and what their characeter does, but not the spolt details itself. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:31, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::All spoilers should be sourced. If that source is anonymous, that should probably be specifically, explicitly noted, but I cannot see how it would hurt to include them if they are so marked. Each reader can then judge how much stock to put in an anonymous source individually, since it's a point on which reasonable people can differ. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 15:53, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::: If you don't mind spoiler's read the two reports. One is from The [[Season 3 (2006-07)]] page and the other is from the new discussion.

{{spoiltext|According to Ron D. Moore's podcast of the Captain's Hand, Apollo will continue to be the Commander of the Pegasus well into Season 3.}}
This goes totally against
{{spoiltext|

KR: It's not— I don't think you're going to have a Galactica spinoff

SO: Uh oh. Well, I mean, they could've done a spinoff with the Pegasus if they'd wanted to, they could've done some other things, but I mean even that as fan fiction—

KR: Did you say "Pegasus"?

SO: Uh oh.

KR: Did you say "Pegasus"? Episode 303.

SO: Uh oh.

KR: Pegasus is destroyed.

SO: Oh no, you're kidding me! Who's on it when it gets destroyed?

KR: Don't know. But it is sent— my source says it is sent on a collision course to a Cylon base ship so that the Galactica can get away.

}}
Goes totally against an offical spoiler. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:13, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
:Possiblities: (1) Plans have changed since RDM made that podcast, (2) Plans have not changed, the producers feel that three episodes are enough to show Lee's ups and downs of command, (3) Keonigrules' source is flatly mistaken or (4) didn't get the details right (it's a Pegasus Viper that is sacrificed, or something like that). --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:58, 26 April 2006 (EST)

=== From Joe ===

Well, I've created {{tl|spoileranony}} with the following wording:

{{spoileranony}}

Basically, I feel that as long as we can cite a source for the rumor, we should report it as such. Care must be taken to ensure that we inform our readers that this information is rumor and speculation. Here are the criteria I'd prefer we use:

# As so long as it is reported on a valid news source (Gateworld, HNR, S2D), we can report it as well.
# We must take care to indicate that these are rumors. Therefore they may or may not be accurate. (Templates such as {{tl|spoileranony}} reflect this view.)
# We must make sure that we are not the primary source for these rumors -- we aren't a news and rumors site. We're a reference. We summarize and scrutinized what's been reported, nothing more, nothing less. (I guess I'm repeating point 1, but I don't think I can emphasize this enough.)

I think we may have to create a page specifically dealing with rumors, such as [[Battlestar Wiki:Rumor Policy]]. Thoughts?

So that's what I have to say on that subject... Unless anything else comes to mind. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:34, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:Page takes a second to create... :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:41, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
::{{tl|Episode List}} - needs to be updated. I posted a suggestion to split up the three seasons because spoliers and title names should be inclduded. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:46, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::I agree with the three points Joe has listed here. I'm unsure on precise implementation though but we'll be hammering that out for a while. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 16:50, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:First, let me address some of your points above:
:#What the heck is a valid news source? Anyone can start a blog and be a "valid news source". This goes back to the credibility/reputation problem.
:#If we do decide to permit anonymous spoilers, an ostentatious warning banner is the last thing we need. This is alread taken care of by the spoiler and spoiltext tags we already have. The anonymity of the source should simply be noted in the citation.
:I'm afraid I'm still against anonymous sources. If we report anonymous spoilers, we ''must'' take into account the reputation of the poster. Since we ''cannot'' do this in an objective and non-arbitrary manner, we therefore cannot report anonymous spoilers.
:Lastly, there is nothing that we would cover in a "Rumor" policy that we couldn't cover here. Let's not spread ourselves thin. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

: "What the heck is a valid news source?" A very good question indeed. In fact, you do raise many interesting points above and I believe we should consider very carefully whether or not we cite spoilers. I'm starting to reconsider that. Anyone else want to chime in? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:19, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:: I dislike spoilers and only read them because it's an effective necessity to edit here; they don't add anything that wouldn't be there after the episode anyway. My opinion on anonymous sources for them (under the assumption that spoilers in general will be cited) is above. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 20:43, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

Joe, I think it's time to wrap this thing up. Let's formally close the blacklist vote and come to a conclusion about our policy on anonymous sources. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:57, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

Battlestar Wiki:Galactipedians Quorum

2006-05-01T23:59:44Z

Mazzy:

{{Project|Wikipedian Quorum}}

[[Battlestar Wiki:Welcome, newcomers|Welcome, newcomers]] and baffled oldtimers! If you have a question about [[Battlestar Wiki]] and how it works, please place it '''at the bottom of the list''', and someone will attempt to answer it for you. (If you have a question about life, the universe and everything, go to the [[Battlestar Wiki:reference desk|reference desk]] instead.)

Before asking a question, check if it's answered by the [[Battlestar Wiki:FAQ]] or other pages linked from [[Battlestar Wiki:Help]].

Before answering a newcomer's question abruptly, consider rereading [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers|Please do not bite the newcomers]].

Questions and answers will not remain on this page indefinitely (otherwise it would very soon become too long to be editable). After a period of time with no further activity, information will be moved to other relevant sections of Battlestar Wiki (such as the FAQ pages) or placed in one of the village pump archives if it is of general interest, or deleted. Please consider dating and titling your discussions so as to facilitate this.

<div style="margin: 0 2em; border: 1px dashed blue; padding: 3px; text-align: center">
'''[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Battlestar Wiki:Wikipedian_Quorum|action=edit&section=new}} Ask a new question or begin a new discussion by clicking here]'''
</div>

[[Category: A to Z]] [[Category: Wikipedia]]

== Need help with a new article namespace ==

I want to create an entry on the atmosphere testing stick Starbuck used when stranded on the small moon in "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]", but do not know what the official name of the device is in order to name and initiate the page , and thoughts? — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 21:40, 3 December 2005 (EST)

:"Field oxygen meter"? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:55, 3 December 2005 (EST)
:We use many descriptive terms here to give a name to something not yet officially named in the show. "[[Humano-Cylon]]", [[Unknown Cylon Ship]], and "[[Presidential security service]]" are good examples. Feel free to create a descriptive term, and note it as such in a note in the article. It can always be moved later to its official name once we find it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:06, 4 December 2005 (EST)

Why is a raven like a writing desk?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:16, 30 January 2006 (EST)

:You should probably use something like F.A.T (Field Atmosphere Test[er]). The military loves
:to abbreviate and soldiers love to make these terms into vulgar slang whenever they can.--[[User:IcePlanetZero|IcePlanetZero]] 00:15, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Colonel Tigh / Colonel Tye historical connection in TOS? ==

Hi, I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I searched the wiki for mentions tying (heh) together the TOS Col. Tigh and the historical Col. Tye, who was a feared military commander on the side of the British during the American Revolution, and a freed African-American slave.

More info on him here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonel_Tye

Has anyone ever asked Terry Carter if this historical figure had any impact on his portrayal on TOS? I can't believe the name's a coincidence.
--Boradis
:I'm sorry, but I think that's pure coincidence.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:31, 2 February 2006 (EST)

== Cast Data infobox? ==

With all the work [[User:Peter Farago|Peter]] and the others are doing in regards to the cast and behind the scenes crew, I am wondering whether or not it is time to create a cast data template (similar to {{tl|Character Data}}). It would probably look a lot better than blurbs on top of the main pages (such as those presently on the [[Edward James Olmos]] page). Thoughts? Critisims? Questions? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:10, 11 February 2006 (EST)
:Wikipedia uses [[Wikipedia:Template:Infobox Biography|Template:Infobox Biography]], which includes full name and dates and places of birth and death. I'm not entirely sure such a thing is useful, and there was enough controversy to generate a fairly active [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/Not_deleted/October_2005#Template:Infobox_Biographydebate|debate]] on Templates for Deletion (which it survived).
:Joe, what sort of information would you want to include in addition to that? Links to IMDB, episode categories and offsite biographies such as on EJO's page? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:16, 11 February 2006 (EST)
::Actually, it apparently survived a TfD twice. Here's the [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_January_7#Template:Infobox_Biography|other one]]. Let me make it clear that my feelings on this are extremely mixed - I think the possibility exists that it could be done right, but I'd rather figure out what "right" is before we implement it than after. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:25, 11 February 2006 (EST)
::: I don't think the "infobox biography" template that Wikipedia uses is all that terribly useful either. Typically, the fields I would like to see included are: name, birth date and location, date of death, character actor portrays; the infobox would include links to IMDB and NNDB, as well as the actor's official site. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 10:18, 12 February 2006 (EST)

:::: Would we want to include things like marital status or anything like that, or is that too tangental? --[[User:Day|Day]] 20:23, 12 February 2006 (EST)

:::::I would find that a bit voyeuristic. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:59, 12 February 2006 (EST)

:::::I would avoid going into ''that'' much detail. Just the fields I listed above should be satisfactory. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:53, 12 February 2006 (EST)

== The Kitt Joke ==

dunno if anybody made this joke before...
once upon a time, humans and cylons were friends and were working together:
[http://www.ilexikon.com/images/3/31/Kitt_front.jpg click me]
(may be deleted, xbruce ;-) EDIT: sorry, didn't know where to put this...)

:Yeah, but we all know what happened to the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KARR first] version of this nice device. --[[User:Astfgl|Astfgl]] 04:52, 14 February 2006 (EST)

== When Earth is found... ==

I know this may be a little too early, but it is inevitable. When Galactica finds Earth what time frame will it be set in (according to earth as we know it). Will they arrive in our past and find dinosaurs, thereby fulfilling a prophecy of the 13th tribe as well as our becoming our ancestors. Will they arrive in our present and fly a raptor the U.N. and ask for some nukes? Or will they arrive in our future, as they did in the original series and ask for Earths military assistance?

What would you prefer, or predict? Personally I think a Raptor should come back from a recon mission with the Voyager space probe, just when the fleet gives up hope on finding earth.

This is all speculation, but its coming and who knows, if Ron Moore is reading this maybe he'll use one of our ideas.--[[User:IcePlanetZero|IcePlanetZero]] 00:17, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:Ron D. Moore has repeatedly stated that they have intentionally never adressed this point or decided it, and are purposefully not going to; the story could take place at any time in the past, present, or future relative to Earth; see Miniseries DVD commentary.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:35, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:I don't want to be a party pooper, but I don't see anything remotely inevitible about the idea that Galactica and the Fleet will eventually find Earth, even if they appear to have coordinates. If it were inevitible, I'm not sure there'd be any point in telling the story. This series is not necessarily about happy endings, after all.

: That said, one speculation that leapt into my own brain a couple of weeks ago was this: suppose the Fleet finds an Earth of the not-too-distant future -- say, 50 years out. A future where humans casually jack in to networks, replace random limbs and organs with cybernetics, etc -- in short, a cyberpunk Earth a la Gibson, Sterling or Stephenson. It's not unimaginable that the Fleet would be a little fundamentalist on the point of human vs. machine at this stage, while such an Earth would be totally casual about humans using and integrating with machines. If the Fleet reacted too strongly to the cyborg culture they found, the Fleet could find Earth, only to see Earth side with the Cylons!--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:31, 4 March 2006 (CST)

IMHO, I've got a feeling that the ''Galactica'' and the Fleet will arrive at Earth in the far-flung future becuase from the looks of the re-imagined series of ''Battlestar Galactica'', it appears that the story is set in the far-flung future (the evidence that the humans of Kobol and the Twelve Colonies did originate from Earth is pretty strong which places the possibility that Kobol was settled by humans from Earth in the far future).

I've got a feeling that the Colonals will be in for a real shock when they get to Earth and they find that Earth is NOT the 13th colony of Kobol and they find out that they and the humans of planet Earth were a product of 2 million years of evolution that occured on Earth as well as finging out that they originated from Earth. Also, I've got a feeling that they will be extremely shocked with the humans of Earth being highly multi-cultural, multi-religious (e.g. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism, Sikhism etc), and multi-lingual (e.g. English, Russian, French, Mandarin Chinese, Japanese, Korean, German, Arabic, Persian, Italian, Greek etc) which is in stark contrast to the mono-cultural, mono-religious, and mono-lingual nature of the Twelve Colonies because they would be expecting the people of Earth to be worshipping the Lords of Kobol and have similar values and principles to what they would have.

Another thing that the Colonals would be very shocked with would be the humans of Earth embracing high-technology and science to a very high degree - something the Colonials are really petrified about because they created the Cylons and they got burned in a very big way for that. -- Roughneck Jase.

== A proposal ==

I know this may come as a little unorthodox, but I would like to propose that a rule to our Standards and Conventions page, that at no time may any ''Battlestar Wiki'' User travel to planet Talos IV, under penalty of death. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)
: Captain [[MemoryAlpha:Christopher Pike|Christopher Pike]] is, of course, exempt [[MemoryAlpha:General Order 7|from this]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:10, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Server time is wrong ==

Server time says 58 minutes after, time.org and time.windows.com (sync) says 21 minutes after. there are no time zones that are 23 minutes off GMT, are there? --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 01:59, 7 March 2006 (CST)
: Let me do a time update/sync for the server. That should fix any discrepancies. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:32, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Wikipedia user box ==

Just letting everyone know that Battlestar Wiki has its own userbox on the English Wikipedia. Simply enter in <nowiki>{{User Battlestar Wiki}}</nowiki> on your Wikipedia user page and off you go. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 15:34, 7 March 2006 (CST)

: Uhm... Wha? I dropped it in to see what it was and... It no worikie. What's it ''supposed'' to do? I tried to find it to see if I was breaking it, but it seems not to exist? --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:50, 7 March 2006 (CST)

:: Eh, it's on [[Wikipedia:Main Page|Wikipedia]], not on Battlestar Wiki. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:15, 8 March 2006 (CST)

::: Oh. Ahha. I see... If you're a Wikipedia editor AND a BSG Wiki editor, you can note your editorship ''here'' on your user page ''there''. Got it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:58, 9 March 2006 (CST)

== Battlestar Galactica Model Kits ==

Hello all,

I am writing this because I am a bit peeved about the prices of "Battlestar" models. I have 3 Battlestars from Revell/Monogram and after all was said and done it came to me that these are way over priced( aftermarket wise ). You can get the Cylon Basestar for $5 on ebay but when you type in "Battlestar" you can expect to pay at least $50.00+ and I have seen them way higher! I know the kit is now out of production but come on now!

I wrote Revel/Monogram a few months back asking if they will ever be re-issuing the line again and what I got back from them was simply that they did'nt believe the Name was popular enough to re-issue the kits (I'm gussing they don't ever look on the internet to see the litteraly hundreds of popular Battlestar Galactica devoted websites or read Time Magazine which stated that Battlestar Galactica was THE show to watch!)

I guess I am venting somewhat but really, those of us who missed out on the 78-79 Issuing of these models and then again in 97 (Which no model shops anywhere near me ever got) what are we to do? Getting a battlestar model is like going to a scalper outside of a popular concert and having to pay 8 times what the ticket is worth!

Looking at the new and very small Battlestar kits from the new Battlestar Galactica show make me nervous as well. An 8 inch model can cost $75 to $100 canadian, makes me wonder how much it would be if they made it to scale with the old Revel/Monogram ( 18inch ) kits!

Does anyone out there feel the same way, or is it just me that these are over priced!?

Also ,does anyone know if they will be doing a larger Battlestar Models, close to the size of the original models?

== error on Battlestar Wiki:Help ==

<h4> This header has the h4 font, but is NOT in the Table of Contents</h4>

shows up in the Table of Contents... I do not know why. I have checked multiple browsers and It shows up in all of them.

== Talk pages for actors? ==

If you click on [[William Adama]] you get a page describing the character and naming the actor playing the character. Associated with that page is a [[Talk:William Adama|"talk page"]] containing discussions and inquiries about the character. All very logical.

Now if you click on [[Edward James Olmos]], the actor in this case, you are taken to a page containing his biography (and it's a good read, too). But there doesn't seem to be a "discussion" page for the actor. Is there a reason for this? Maybe nobody wants to talk about Edward James Olmos (or [[Mary McDonnell]] or ...) outside of the context of BSG. Or is there some policy to the effect that one simply doesn't do that in the BSG Wiki? --[[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 15:38, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Sir, the only reason there is "no talk page" is because nothing has been posted in it yet; it's "there", it's just that there's been no discussion yet. Discussion for actor pages would be used if someone says something controversial and not yet verified, which we would wait to find a source for. For example, if someone wrote on EJO's page "EJO thinks abortion is morally wrong", with no sources, the comment would be moved to discussion (in italics and quotes), and we would request a source (from a newspapaer, interview, etc.) Before either adding it back onto the page, or deciding never to put it back (be advised; I have no idea what EJO's views on abortion are, I just picked an issue at random). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:54, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Fatal error ==

When I Click this link: [[Gaius Baltar]], I get...
*'''Fatal error: Call to undefined function: wfregexreplacement() in /home/admin/domains/battlestarwiki.org/public_html/en/includes/MagicWord.php on line 297'''
Same thing for [[Tricia Helfer]].

:When I click your links I only get it for Tricia. Let me try : [[Tricia Helfer]] --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 21 March 2006

::I'm getting the same thing for [[James Callis]]. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:33, 21 March 2006 (CST)
:::New scary error on "Recent Changes":
:::"Fatal error: Call to undefined function: wfclone() in /home/admin/domains/battlestarwiki.org/public_html/en/includes/Linker.php on line 899"

::: Problem fixed. Let me know if there any additional issues. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 15:57, 21 March 2006 (CST)

== The spam filter ==

The spam filter is lame. It refuses to save an <hr> with style="". Of course, it doesn't tell you that your work will be rejected while you preview it. Very frustrating. So what's the problem with <hr style="width:..."> anyway? --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 02:01, 22 March 2006 (CST)
: I've removed the spam filter. It was causing too many issues anyway. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:37, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

== Peabody award ==

On April 5th, 2006, BSG won a Peabody award.
:From the peabody press release [http://www.peabody.uga.edu/news/pressrelease.asp?ID=135]:
::''[BSG] A belated, brilliantly re-imagined revival of a so-so 1970s outer-space saga, the series about imperiled survivors of a besieged planet has revitalized sci-fi television with its parallax considerations of politics, religion, sex, even what it means to be "human."
FYI.
--[[User:Bp|Bp]] 22:39, 6 April 2006 (CDT)

== BSG in the Comics ==

Battlestar Galactica has made it into the comics! In the syndicated comic strip "Baldo" by Cantu and Castellano, Baldo and his friend are watching BSG. It focuses on Adama giving commands with a Latino flare. The comics can be viewed at the [http://www.ucomics.com/baldo Baldo Website.] Click on the dates for April 5, 6, 7, 2006.--Monkeyboy
:Yes, thanks. It was also in this great ''Dilbert'' a few weeks back. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 12:58, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

== Season 2.0 and 2.5 DVD ==

Can anyone confirm whether they plan to release Season 2.0 and Season 2.1 as a complete DVD set of Season 2?
:We don't know, although we think they will make a separate set of DVDs for the second set of 10, so everyone that bought the first set will buy the second set. It would cost less, thus more people would buy it. It's not called "2.1"; going by that terminology there would be 9 other halfs to season two. It's "season 2.5". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:00, 10 April 2006 (CDT)
::I would guess the studios would do like they did with Lost, release both a 2.5 disc set and a complete set. However in the UK, as we have not had any dvds released yet at all for season 2, i'd hazard a guess that we'll only get a complete series. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 03:01, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

==Spoiler policy==

: ''Moved from [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Administrators' noticeboard]] by [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.]]''

I would like BattlestarWiki's Standards and Conventions page to address the following re: Spoilers. You see, I think that a cast member mentioning something happening in an upcoming episode is a spoiler which we can post on BattlestarWiki. However, as you may recall Ron Moore warning in his blog, in the days leading up to the season 2 finale one guy got his hands on an advanced DVD of the show and posted a lot of screencaps giving away most of the major plot points. RDM was not pleased, nor was I. We should not include such news into our updates of BSwiki. Actually, what I wanted to bring up was something else more important: From time to time, people post what they CLAIM are "advanced script fragments" from upcoming episodes. More often than not, they're actually either fake, or (rarely) from such an early version of the script that it has little to do with the finalized story. The idea which lends a shade of credibility to this (instead of just instantly thinking "someone made this up") is that logically, they send out early fragments of the script for potential guest stars to audition with. Still '''almost all of these things I've ever seen are faked, while the others were from such early draft versions that they did not resemble the story at all.''' You could count on one hand the times these things are actually what appeared in the show. ---->Also, they're not exactly sourced. As a result of this lack of sourcing, many are faked. I mean, there is that handful which might actually have been "demo scripts" for guest actors, but as I said, these are rarely relevant to the actual plot. As a combination of their generally fake nature and lack of sourcing, '''I propose that we add to our Standards and Conventions a rule clarifying our spoiler sourcing policy, that such "advanced script fragments" found on messageboards and such should not be used as a source of information to be put onto BattlestarWiki in any form whatsoever. The only acceptible "spoilers" we use are cast and crew interview information, etc. ''''--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:25, 10 April 2006 (CDT)
: For the sake of clarity, I would be fine with this being noted in S&C. However, I believe "script fragments" and message board postings don't qualify as sources and would be eradicated due to the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 15:36, 10 April 2006 (CDT)
::Indeed. It's just that several people have been circulating these things and new users (infuriatingly) take them as fact over there. I mean that D3u5 user probably saw it and assumed it was fact and tried to write it up here. That's why I brought it up. But I actually think our current spoiler policies cover this very well, I just felt it should be re-iterated. Thanks. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 16:50, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

::: I think that's not unreasonable. Maybe a shortened, kind of condensed blurb on S&C with a link to the full text of the Spoiler policy. Unless you would rather someone else do it, Merv, I'd like to see how you would realize this (i.e. go ahead and do it, unless you don't have the time or whatever). --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 19:36, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

:Our current policy is that rumors and spoilers need to be sourced, and should be hidden by spoiltext when not on episode pages. I don't think we need to ban references to non-production sources - that would rule out the accurate and helpful Patriot Resource, among other things. Do I misunderstand your intention? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:45, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

:The policy I would like to see, personally is something like this: "Encyclopedic pages should contain only officially released (press release, TV listing) or definitifely sourced (producer's blog or podcast, detailed interview) information. After the episode airs, the episode itself is of course definitive. No detailed synopsis, no matter how credible the source, should be posted on an encyclopedic page before an episode has aired in one of its major markets."
:I deliberately chose '''not''' to batten that down to "...aired in the US..." on the chance that some scheduling oddity might lead to, say, the UK seeing an episode before SciFi ran it. That sort of thing happened all the time with B5, but I don't actually know if it '''can''' happen with BSG.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:15, 11 April 2006 (CDT)
::The UK has Season 1 before it was shown in America but season 2 is about 3 months behind the us airdates :( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 14:49, 11 April 2006 (CDT)

Gateworld.net recently posted up the "spoiler" which I have been referring to. It's not from any legitimate source; they saw the exact same messageboart post I did, and THEY decided to accept it as fact. It sounds kind of weird. Anyway, I have asked Ron and Mrs. Ron on the official messageboard if there is ANY SHRED OF TRUTH in this report, or if it is someone's fanfic. I probably won't get a reply. Still, give me two days for an answer. I don't like the way things are headed. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:11, 12 April 2006 (CDT)
:So the leasson learned, assume anything unless it can be disproven. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:20, 12 April 2006 (CDT)

::'''No....no...Shane, the entire concept of BattlestarWiki's Standards and Conventions is that we assume NOTHING until it CAN be proven'''. The entire point of the post I just made was "those idiots at Gateworld.net saw the same messageboard post I did, which I think might be fake, and they posted it up on their website without regard to the consequences; dear God, now other websites will assume it is fact, simply because Gateworld was dumb enough to post it themselves". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:24, 12 April 2006 (CDT)

:::We should not be posting here, as this is a place for alerts, but everything Gateworld get their hand on or reports seems to be true. Maybe they have the correct information. I already read the plot for Episode 1, Season 3. If you say GateWorld posts bad information, Gateworld would not be the place where you look up information. Simple math. We can discuss this further if you want on [[Talk:Season_3_%282006-07%29|Season 3 talk page]], but this alerts all the administrators. This is a trivial matter that could have been discussed on S&C also. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 12 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Shane, bother to read the posts I make. Gateworld *IS* an almost always good source of information....that's why it would be so damaging if they posted something wrong. Because then everyone would assume it to be correct, coming from a reputable source like Gateworld. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:55, 12 April 2006 (CDT)

:::::I'm afraid I just don't see the urgency. Rumors are rumors. The best thing to do is cite agressively and not hold our breath. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:57, 12 April 2006 (CDT)

::::::I agree. This is why I am moving this to the [[Battlestar Wiki:Wikipedian Quorum]], the more apt place for this sort of thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:03, 12 April 2006 (CDT)

== Screencaps ==

Just to notify people that I have all of Season 1 in HR-HDTV format (960x528 res), as well as Season 2 episodes 6 to 12 inclusive (960x540). If anyone wants me to take a screencap of any point in any particular episode, drop me a line at: kai (underscore) robinson (at) hotmail (dot) com

Cheers :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 15:13, 15 April 2006 (CDT)

:Thank you for that most gracious offer. I am curious, though - what HDTV format has those dimensons? As I understand it, HDTV should be in either 720x1280 or in 1080x1920. 960x540 appears to be a quarter the resolution of a 1080i image, and the 960x528 dimensions (20:11 aspect ratio?) are even more confusing. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:00, 15 April 2006 (CDT)

::As far as i'm aware the 960x528's are actually slightly cropped from 960x540 to produce the actual picture as the HDTV version still has black bands on it (only just). This is due to them being capped in Australia from 'Network 10'. The 960x540's are indeed 50% reduction in vertical and horizontal res from the 1920x1080i, but thanks to the way that 'UniversalHD' have broadcast them, there are no black bands to crop off. I still have to wait to see if anyone manages to pull off capping BSG from SkyOne HD when it starts broadcasting later this year, although judging from the amount of proprietary DRM crap they'll use, its unlikely. Still, the offers open to all that want the caps that i've got. --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 20:52, 16 April 2006 (CDT)
:::I didn't mean to imply that they'd be unwelcome - obviously, even 960x540 will be considerably better than anything we have here currently. Feel free to browse the newly created [[:Category:Screen captures requiring upgrade]] and upgrade any images which strike your fancy.--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:38, 16 April 2006 (CDT)
::::Wasnt taking it that way :P I noticed several categories for screenies for each ep, however, is there no place I can just upload a bunch of them to? If not on the wiki, then i'll create a separate directory on my webspace and post the URL for other more seasoned wiki veterans to upload... --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 00:37, 17 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Uploading images is pretty straightforward, all you need to do is pick a filename. They land in the appropriate categories automatically after you tag them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:39, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

== Can't find a picture ==

I'm looking for a picture of the Pegasus' rail guns in Resurrection Ship Part II. Any picture showing the Pegasus firing would work.
:How about the ones on [[Pegasus (RDM)#Equipment]]? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:47, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

==Sitenotice on Koenigrules vote==
Anybody mind if I update [[Mediawiki:Sitenotice]] to draw attention to the vote underway at [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad#Koenigrules/Hollywood North Report]]? (Moreover, can we do this for any vote of public interest in the future, such as RFAs?) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:04, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
: I'm fine with this. These things do affect the wiki on a wide scale, after all.-- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:27, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
::Done. I used a separate box since the Portal notice will probably continue to be relevant after this vote closes. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:35, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Great! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:43, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

== Battlestarwiki Deutsch ==

First of all, I'd like to thank all Battlestarwikipedians involved for creating the [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/de/ German Edition]. But the pages can be edited by anyone, not just registered users. -- [[User:Astfgl|Astfgl]] 07:26, 22 April 2006 (CDT)
: I'll fix that... :::rolls up sleeves::: -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 14:33, 22 April 2006 (CDT)
: Fixed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 14:44, 22 April 2006 (CDT)

== Main Page Redesign ==

Hey all. Just for a heads up, I have been working on a [[User:Shane/Main Page|Main Page redesign]] and will want your input before it does go live. The talk page (after you click the link above) brings you to the discussion. Also in the design are portals. The "look" is now working! So be sure to check out [[Battlestar Wiki:Portals]] to see some examples. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:00, 22 April 2006 (CDT)
:I think you should change the names like "President's Docket" to stuff that's more functional or intuitive; we get a lot of newbies in using us purely as an encyclopedia and I think it should be as new-user friendly as possible. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:13, 22 April 2006 (CDT)
::The top part needs some work; the large big box on top region; links to the quorum, other shows etc seem squeezed in; the quote of the day box needs some fixing for aesthetics. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:15, 22 April 2006 (CDT)

== Proposed Policies ==

[[:Category:Battlestar_Wiki_proposed_policies]] - I think we need to start going through this list and looking at these pages so they can be impemented or not with Community Consenus. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 11:37, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

== Community Portal ==

If everyone can give input on what we should include on the Community Portal, we could get it up and fully running quicker! Thanks! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 11:38, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

==An apology regarding spokesmanship==
As many of you have read, I [[Sources:Correspondence with Jim Iaccino|recently offered]] an apology to Jim Iaccino (a.k.a. Koenigrules) on the behalf of the Battlestar Wiki community, for the comments of one of our members. This was shortly after I [[Talk:Precipice#Question_about_Koenigrules|pointed out]] that it was inappropriate for any of us to speak as the sole voice of the wiki, and therefore makes my action extremely hypocritical.

I am fully aware that my status as an Administrator does not confer on me authority to act as a spokesperson for the wiki, and I apologize to any users here who may feel that I misrepresented them. In my defense, I will say that I felt it was a necessary step to restore civil discourse to a situation which was quickly escalating out of hand.

If Joe or the other admin staff feel that my action was inappropriate, I will abide by any disciplinary ruling they decide to issue. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:22, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:Ah, I don't see it as more than a single ''faux pas''. The end (apologing in proxy for others who personally insult someone to the point of slander on a internet site) justified the means (albeit unkosher). Given the harsh tone done by the contributors on the subject, I'd say it was the right thing to do. I don't feel you need to be busted down to take [[User:Day|Mop Boy]]'s job or anything (yet. ;) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:20, 1 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not want to drag this up again as it was resolved, and I agree that it inappropriate for anyone to act as sole spokesperson. However, my accusation against KR was at the time a believe based on facts available to me at the time, and I believed in them. **However, when I got pointed towards more information which dispelled the belief I had developed because of the earlier one, and it was clearly established that KR was a reliable source, things changed: rather than flying into a rage or adamantly declaring that I was right and would "stay the course" despite all the info, I changed my position, admitted my positiion was wrong (as there were things I didn't know) and appologized, and retracted the whole thing. This was resolved, and to be honest, more amicably than I had hoped. More to the point, before KR responded everyone here voted that they agreed with my (previous) position. I think this was all just a bad incident we need to learn from, developing our spoilers tags more and so forth, and I think we're making good progress discussing that. The kinks a Wiki site going through as it grows and becomes a mature full fledged site. At no time did I feel that Peter is or has been out of line; he needs give no appology :) officer and a gentleman all the way. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:38, 1 May 2006 (CDT)

== User Feedback ==
We, the editors of Battlestar Wiki, quickly become versed in the ways of Wiki-code. However, a great many of the users of this site lack such knowledge, and don't really want/need to learn it in order to use the site. The only problem with this (other than losing out on potential contributors), is that we don't really get feedback from them. [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] recently left some feedback on the main page redesign, and I thanked her for the feedback off-wiki, where she pointed out this problem. Does anybody have any ideas on ways that we could solicit feedback from users '''without''' having to use the "edit" button and wikicode? Maybe some sort of a simple javascript form or such that allows (even non-logged in users?) to post thoughts/suggestions? It'd be ripe for vandalism, but I'd like to hear from "the people". --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:02, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
:One option: Starbuck, the head honcho over at the [http://galacticabs.com Galactica BS forum] has offered that forum as a possible place for getting feedback about the wiki. I told her I would convey the offer here. (I wasn't acting as a spokesman, but just was brainstorming with Mazzy and Starbuck offered.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:13, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
::Excellent. PaperBagPrincess (a.k.a. Starbuck) rocks. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:39, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
::Not a bad idea, and it prevents spamming email boxes or wikis. I'd be interested in Joe's take. Are our portals useable as chat boards? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:22, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Unfortunately (or fortunately?) the portals are bound by the same restrictions as any other article. It's just a pattern for laying out the content. I was thinking maybe a javascript form with a simple text box, but when Starbuck offered I thought it was an interesting idea. The wiki's weakest area is in simple communication, and partnering with a message board (run by us or otherwise) might allow us to help overcome that deficit. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:29, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
::::I own a vBullitien lience with no "forum" to hold it on. Though I think that it is great to "chat", alot of the Wiki stuff must happen on the Wiki because it's easy to link to different areas. However, we should not use a sperate outside "community" forum. I would be willing to donate my licence for use on Joe's server. (http://forum.battlestarwiki.org/) which could be intergrated with the Wiki "user" database so that you would not have to create a sperate user database. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:02, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
::::: Well I figure I should throw this in, Shane has a valid point about not being a public forum. Starbuck assured me it could be done privately and if you needed external mods from our site we could help (there are those who have little wiki contact) but you could also do the admin stuff yourself. I dunno exactly what you are looking for but I think a place where non article discussions and feedback could be handled in a more user friendly and easily moderated place would have a positive impact. Guests can log in and comment as well. I personally am just learning the administrative functions but the board that Shane mentioned and the Invision power board formats would be adaptable to your needs. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 17:18, 1 May 2006 (CDT)

Battlestar Wiki:Galactipedians Quorum

2006-05-01T22:18:16Z

Mazzy: /* User Feedback */

{{Project|Wikipedian Quorum}}

[[Battlestar Wiki:Welcome, newcomers|Welcome, newcomers]] and baffled oldtimers! If you have a question about [[Battlestar Wiki]] and how it works, please place it '''at the bottom of the list''', and someone will attempt to answer it for you. (If you have a question about life, the universe and everything, go to the [[Battlestar Wiki:reference desk|reference desk]] instead.)

Before asking a question, check if it's answered by the [[Battlestar Wiki:FAQ]] or other pages linked from [[Battlestar Wiki:Help]].

Before answering a newcomer's question abruptly, consider rereading [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers|Please do not bite the newcomers]].

Questions and answers will not remain on this page indefinitely (otherwise it would very soon become too long to be editable). After a period of time with no further activity, information will be moved to other relevant sections of Battlestar Wiki (such as the FAQ pages) or placed in one of the village pump archives if it is of general interest, or deleted. Please consider dating and titling your discussions so as to facilitate this.

<div style="margin: 0 2em; border: 1px dashed blue; padding: 3px; text-align: center">
'''[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Battlestar Wiki:Wikipedian_Quorum|action=edit&section=new}} Ask a new question or begin a new discussion by clicking here]'''
</div>

[[Category: A to Z]] [[Category: Wikipedia]]

== Need help with a new article namespace ==

I want to create an entry on the atmosphere testing stick Starbuck used when stranded on the small moon in "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]", but do not know what the official name of the device is in order to name and initiate the page , and thoughts? — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 21:40, 3 December 2005 (EST)

:"Field oxygen meter"? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:55, 3 December 2005 (EST)
:We use many descriptive terms here to give a name to something not yet officially named in the show. "[[Humano-Cylon]]", [[Unknown Cylon Ship]], and "[[Presidential security service]]" are good examples. Feel free to create a descriptive term, and note it as such in a note in the article. It can always be moved later to its official name once we find it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:06, 4 December 2005 (EST)

Why is a raven like a writing desk?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:16, 30 January 2006 (EST)

:You should probably use something like F.A.T (Field Atmosphere Test[er]). The military loves
:to abbreviate and soldiers love to make these terms into vulgar slang whenever they can.--[[User:IcePlanetZero|IcePlanetZero]] 00:15, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Colonel Tigh / Colonel Tye historical connection in TOS? ==

Hi, I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I searched the wiki for mentions tying (heh) together the TOS Col. Tigh and the historical Col. Tye, who was a feared military commander on the side of the British during the American Revolution, and a freed African-American slave.

More info on him here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonel_Tye

Has anyone ever asked Terry Carter if this historical figure had any impact on his portrayal on TOS? I can't believe the name's a coincidence.
--Boradis
:I'm sorry, but I think that's pure coincidence.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:31, 2 February 2006 (EST)

== Cast Data infobox? ==

With all the work [[User:Peter Farago|Peter]] and the others are doing in regards to the cast and behind the scenes crew, I am wondering whether or not it is time to create a cast data template (similar to {{tl|Character Data}}). It would probably look a lot better than blurbs on top of the main pages (such as those presently on the [[Edward James Olmos]] page). Thoughts? Critisims? Questions? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:10, 11 February 2006 (EST)
:Wikipedia uses [[Wikipedia:Template:Infobox Biography|Template:Infobox Biography]], which includes full name and dates and places of birth and death. I'm not entirely sure such a thing is useful, and there was enough controversy to generate a fairly active [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/Not_deleted/October_2005#Template:Infobox_Biographydebate|debate]] on Templates for Deletion (which it survived).
:Joe, what sort of information would you want to include in addition to that? Links to IMDB, episode categories and offsite biographies such as on EJO's page? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:16, 11 February 2006 (EST)
::Actually, it apparently survived a TfD twice. Here's the [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_January_7#Template:Infobox_Biography|other one]]. Let me make it clear that my feelings on this are extremely mixed - I think the possibility exists that it could be done right, but I'd rather figure out what "right" is before we implement it than after. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:25, 11 February 2006 (EST)
::: I don't think the "infobox biography" template that Wikipedia uses is all that terribly useful either. Typically, the fields I would like to see included are: name, birth date and location, date of death, character actor portrays; the infobox would include links to IMDB and NNDB, as well as the actor's official site. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 10:18, 12 February 2006 (EST)

:::: Would we want to include things like marital status or anything like that, or is that too tangental? --[[User:Day|Day]] 20:23, 12 February 2006 (EST)

:::::I would find that a bit voyeuristic. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:59, 12 February 2006 (EST)

:::::I would avoid going into ''that'' much detail. Just the fields I listed above should be satisfactory. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:53, 12 February 2006 (EST)

== The Kitt Joke ==

dunno if anybody made this joke before...
once upon a time, humans and cylons were friends and were working together:
[http://www.ilexikon.com/images/3/31/Kitt_front.jpg click me]
(may be deleted, xbruce ;-) EDIT: sorry, didn't know where to put this...)

:Yeah, but we all know what happened to the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KARR first] version of this nice device. --[[User:Astfgl|Astfgl]] 04:52, 14 February 2006 (EST)

== When Earth is found... ==

I know this may be a little too early, but it is inevitable. When Galactica finds Earth what time frame will it be set in (according to earth as we know it). Will they arrive in our past and find dinosaurs, thereby fulfilling a prophecy of the 13th tribe as well as our becoming our ancestors. Will they arrive in our present and fly a raptor the U.N. and ask for some nukes? Or will they arrive in our future, as they did in the original series and ask for Earths military assistance?

What would you prefer, or predict? Personally I think a Raptor should come back from a recon mission with the Voyager space probe, just when the fleet gives up hope on finding earth.

This is all speculation, but its coming and who knows, if Ron Moore is reading this maybe he'll use one of our ideas.--[[User:IcePlanetZero|IcePlanetZero]] 00:17, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:Ron D. Moore has repeatedly stated that they have intentionally never adressed this point or decided it, and are purposefully not going to; the story could take place at any time in the past, present, or future relative to Earth; see Miniseries DVD commentary.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:35, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:I don't want to be a party pooper, but I don't see anything remotely inevitible about the idea that Galactica and the Fleet will eventually find Earth, even if they appear to have coordinates. If it were inevitible, I'm not sure there'd be any point in telling the story. This series is not necessarily about happy endings, after all.

: That said, one speculation that leapt into my own brain a couple of weeks ago was this: suppose the Fleet finds an Earth of the not-too-distant future -- say, 50 years out. A future where humans casually jack in to networks, replace random limbs and organs with cybernetics, etc -- in short, a cyberpunk Earth a la Gibson, Sterling or Stephenson. It's not unimaginable that the Fleet would be a little fundamentalist on the point of human vs. machine at this stage, while such an Earth would be totally casual about humans using and integrating with machines. If the Fleet reacted too strongly to the cyborg culture they found, the Fleet could find Earth, only to see Earth side with the Cylons!--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:31, 4 March 2006 (CST)

IMHO, I've got a feeling that the ''Galactica'' and the Fleet will arrive at Earth in the far-flung future becuase from the looks of the re-imagined series of ''Battlestar Galactica'', it appears that the story is set in the far-flung future (the evidence that the humans of Kobol and the Twelve Colonies did originate from Earth is pretty strong which places the possibility that Kobol was settled by humans from Earth in the far future).

I've got a feeling that the Colonals will be in for a real shock when they get to Earth and they find that Earth is NOT the 13th colony of Kobol and they find out that they and the humans of planet Earth were a product of 2 million years of evolution that occured on Earth as well as finging out that they originated from Earth. Also, I've got a feeling that they will be extremely shocked with the humans of Earth being highly multi-cultural, multi-religious (e.g. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism, Sikhism etc), and multi-lingual (e.g. English, Russian, French, Mandarin Chinese, Japanese, Korean, German, Arabic, Persian, Italian, Greek etc) which is in stark contrast to the mono-cultural, mono-religious, and mono-lingual nature of the Twelve Colonies because they would be expecting the people of Earth to be worshipping the Lords of Kobol and have similar values and principles to what they would have.

Another thing that the Colonals would be very shocked with would be the humans of Earth embracing high-technology and science to a very high degree - something the Colonials are really petrified about because they created the Cylons and they got burned in a very big way for that. -- Roughneck Jase.

== A proposal ==

I know this may come as a little unorthodox, but I would like to propose that a rule to our Standards and Conventions page, that at no time may any ''Battlestar Wiki'' User travel to planet Talos IV, under penalty of death. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)
: Captain [[MemoryAlpha:Christopher Pike|Christopher Pike]] is, of course, exempt [[MemoryAlpha:General Order 7|from this]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:10, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Server time is wrong ==

Server time says 58 minutes after, time.org and time.windows.com (sync) says 21 minutes after. there are no time zones that are 23 minutes off GMT, are there? --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 01:59, 7 March 2006 (CST)
: Let me do a time update/sync for the server. That should fix any discrepancies. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:32, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Wikipedia user box ==

Just letting everyone know that Battlestar Wiki has its own userbox on the English Wikipedia. Simply enter in <nowiki>{{User Battlestar Wiki}}</nowiki> on your Wikipedia user page and off you go. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 15:34, 7 March 2006 (CST)

: Uhm... Wha? I dropped it in to see what it was and... It no worikie. What's it ''supposed'' to do? I tried to find it to see if I was breaking it, but it seems not to exist? --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:50, 7 March 2006 (CST)

:: Eh, it's on [[Wikipedia:Main Page|Wikipedia]], not on Battlestar Wiki. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:15, 8 March 2006 (CST)

::: Oh. Ahha. I see... If you're a Wikipedia editor AND a BSG Wiki editor, you can note your editorship ''here'' on your user page ''there''. Got it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:58, 9 March 2006 (CST)

== Battlestar Galactica Model Kits ==

Hello all,

I am writing this because I am a bit peeved about the prices of "Battlestar" models. I have 3 Battlestars from Revell/Monogram and after all was said and done it came to me that these are way over priced( aftermarket wise ). You can get the Cylon Basestar for $5 on ebay but when you type in "Battlestar" you can expect to pay at least $50.00+ and I have seen them way higher! I know the kit is now out of production but come on now!

I wrote Revel/Monogram a few months back asking if they will ever be re-issuing the line again and what I got back from them was simply that they did'nt believe the Name was popular enough to re-issue the kits (I'm gussing they don't ever look on the internet to see the litteraly hundreds of popular Battlestar Galactica devoted websites or read Time Magazine which stated that Battlestar Galactica was THE show to watch!)

I guess I am venting somewhat but really, those of us who missed out on the 78-79 Issuing of these models and then again in 97 (Which no model shops anywhere near me ever got) what are we to do? Getting a battlestar model is like going to a scalper outside of a popular concert and having to pay 8 times what the ticket is worth!

Looking at the new and very small Battlestar kits from the new Battlestar Galactica show make me nervous as well. An 8 inch model can cost $75 to $100 canadian, makes me wonder how much it would be if they made it to scale with the old Revel/Monogram ( 18inch ) kits!

Does anyone out there feel the same way, or is it just me that these are over priced!?

Also ,does anyone know if they will be doing a larger Battlestar Models, close to the size of the original models?

== error on Battlestar Wiki:Help ==

<h4> This header has the h4 font, but is NOT in the Table of Contents</h4>

shows up in the Table of Contents... I do not know why. I have checked multiple browsers and It shows up in all of them.

== Talk pages for actors? ==

If you click on [[William Adama]] you get a page describing the character and naming the actor playing the character. Associated with that page is a [[Talk:William Adama|"talk page"]] containing discussions and inquiries about the character. All very logical.

Now if you click on [[Edward James Olmos]], the actor in this case, you are taken to a page containing his biography (and it's a good read, too). But there doesn't seem to be a "discussion" page for the actor. Is there a reason for this? Maybe nobody wants to talk about Edward James Olmos (or [[Mary McDonnell]] or ...) outside of the context of BSG. Or is there some policy to the effect that one simply doesn't do that in the BSG Wiki? --[[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 15:38, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Sir, the only reason there is "no talk page" is because nothing has been posted in it yet; it's "there", it's just that there's been no discussion yet. Discussion for actor pages would be used if someone says something controversial and not yet verified, which we would wait to find a source for. For example, if someone wrote on EJO's page "EJO thinks abortion is morally wrong", with no sources, the comment would be moved to discussion (in italics and quotes), and we would request a source (from a newspapaer, interview, etc.) Before either adding it back onto the page, or deciding never to put it back (be advised; I have no idea what EJO's views on abortion are, I just picked an issue at random). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:54, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Fatal error ==

When I Click this link: [[Gaius Baltar]], I get...
*'''Fatal error: Call to undefined function: wfregexreplacement() in /home/admin/domains/battlestarwiki.org/public_html/en/includes/MagicWord.php on line 297'''
Same thing for [[Tricia Helfer]].

:When I click your links I only get it for Tricia. Let me try : [[Tricia Helfer]] --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 21 March 2006

::I'm getting the same thing for [[James Callis]]. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:33, 21 March 2006 (CST)
:::New scary error on "Recent Changes":
:::"Fatal error: Call to undefined function: wfclone() in /home/admin/domains/battlestarwiki.org/public_html/en/includes/Linker.php on line 899"

::: Problem fixed. Let me know if there any additional issues. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 15:57, 21 March 2006 (CST)

== The spam filter ==

The spam filter is lame. It refuses to save an <hr> with style="". Of course, it doesn't tell you that your work will be rejected while you preview it. Very frustrating. So what's the problem with <hr style="width:..."> anyway? --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 02:01, 22 March 2006 (CST)
: I've removed the spam filter. It was causing too many issues anyway. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:37, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

== Peabody award ==

On April 5th, 2006, BSG won a Peabody award.
:From the peabody press release [http://www.peabody.uga.edu/news/pressrelease.asp?ID=135]:
::''[BSG] A belated, brilliantly re-imagined revival of a so-so 1970s outer-space saga, the series about imperiled survivors of a besieged planet has revitalized sci-fi television with its parallax considerations of politics, religion, sex, even what it means to be "human."
FYI.
--[[User:Bp|Bp]] 22:39, 6 April 2006 (CDT)

== BSG in the Comics ==

Battlestar Galactica has made it into the comics! In the syndicated comic strip "Baldo" by Cantu and Castellano, Baldo and his friend are watching BSG. It focuses on Adama giving commands with a Latino flare. The comics can be viewed at the [http://www.ucomics.com/baldo Baldo Website.] Click on the dates for April 5, 6, 7, 2006.--Monkeyboy
:Yes, thanks. It was also in this great ''Dilbert'' a few weeks back. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 12:58, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

== Season 2.0 and 2.5 DVD ==

Can anyone confirm whether they plan to release Season 2.0 and Season 2.1 as a complete DVD set of Season 2?
:We don't know, although we think they will make a separate set of DVDs for the second set of 10, so everyone that bought the first set will buy the second set. It would cost less, thus more people would buy it. It's not called "2.1"; going by that terminology there would be 9 other halfs to season two. It's "season 2.5". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:00, 10 April 2006 (CDT)
::I would guess the studios would do like they did with Lost, release both a 2.5 disc set and a complete set. However in the UK, as we have not had any dvds released yet at all for season 2, i'd hazard a guess that we'll only get a complete series. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 03:01, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

==Spoiler policy==

: ''Moved from [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Administrators' noticeboard]] by [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.]]''

I would like BattlestarWiki's Standards and Conventions page to address the following re: Spoilers. You see, I think that a cast member mentioning something happening in an upcoming episode is a spoiler which we can post on BattlestarWiki. However, as you may recall Ron Moore warning in his blog, in the days leading up to the season 2 finale one guy got his hands on an advanced DVD of the show and posted a lot of screencaps giving away most of the major plot points. RDM was not pleased, nor was I. We should not include such news into our updates of BSwiki. Actually, what I wanted to bring up was something else more important: From time to time, people post what they CLAIM are "advanced script fragments" from upcoming episodes. More often than not, they're actually either fake, or (rarely) from such an early version of the script that it has little to do with the finalized story. The idea which lends a shade of credibility to this (instead of just instantly thinking "someone made this up") is that logically, they send out early fragments of the script for potential guest stars to audition with. Still '''almost all of these things I've ever seen are faked, while the others were from such early draft versions that they did not resemble the story at all.''' You could count on one hand the times these things are actually what appeared in the show. ---->Also, they're not exactly sourced. As a result of this lack of sourcing, many are faked. I mean, there is that handful which might actually have been "demo scripts" for guest actors, but as I said, these are rarely relevant to the actual plot. As a combination of their generally fake nature and lack of sourcing, '''I propose that we add to our Standards and Conventions a rule clarifying our spoiler sourcing policy, that such "advanced script fragments" found on messageboards and such should not be used as a source of information to be put onto BattlestarWiki in any form whatsoever. The only acceptible "spoilers" we use are cast and crew interview information, etc. ''''--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:25, 10 April 2006 (CDT)
: For the sake of clarity, I would be fine with this being noted in S&C. However, I believe "script fragments" and message board postings don't qualify as sources and would be eradicated due to the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 15:36, 10 April 2006 (CDT)
::Indeed. It's just that several people have been circulating these things and new users (infuriatingly) take them as fact over there. I mean that D3u5 user probably saw it and assumed it was fact and tried to write it up here. That's why I brought it up. But I actually think our current spoiler policies cover this very well, I just felt it should be re-iterated. Thanks. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 16:50, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

::: I think that's not unreasonable. Maybe a shortened, kind of condensed blurb on S&C with a link to the full text of the Spoiler policy. Unless you would rather someone else do it, Merv, I'd like to see how you would realize this (i.e. go ahead and do it, unless you don't have the time or whatever). --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 19:36, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

:Our current policy is that rumors and spoilers need to be sourced, and should be hidden by spoiltext when not on episode pages. I don't think we need to ban references to non-production sources - that would rule out the accurate and helpful Patriot Resource, among other things. Do I misunderstand your intention? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:45, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

:The policy I would like to see, personally is something like this: "Encyclopedic pages should contain only officially released (press release, TV listing) or definitifely sourced (producer's blog or podcast, detailed interview) information. After the episode airs, the episode itself is of course definitive. No detailed synopsis, no matter how credible the source, should be posted on an encyclopedic page before an episode has aired in one of its major markets."
:I deliberately chose '''not''' to batten that down to "...aired in the US..." on the chance that some scheduling oddity might lead to, say, the UK seeing an episode before SciFi ran it. That sort of thing happened all the time with B5, but I don't actually know if it '''can''' happen with BSG.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:15, 11 April 2006 (CDT)
::The UK has Season 1 before it was shown in America but season 2 is about 3 months behind the us airdates :( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 14:49, 11 April 2006 (CDT)

Gateworld.net recently posted up the "spoiler" which I have been referring to. It's not from any legitimate source; they saw the exact same messageboart post I did, and THEY decided to accept it as fact. It sounds kind of weird. Anyway, I have asked Ron and Mrs. Ron on the official messageboard if there is ANY SHRED OF TRUTH in this report, or if it is someone's fanfic. I probably won't get a reply. Still, give me two days for an answer. I don't like the way things are headed. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:11, 12 April 2006 (CDT)
:So the leasson learned, assume anything unless it can be disproven. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:20, 12 April 2006 (CDT)

::'''No....no...Shane, the entire concept of BattlestarWiki's Standards and Conventions is that we assume NOTHING until it CAN be proven'''. The entire point of the post I just made was "those idiots at Gateworld.net saw the same messageboard post I did, which I think might be fake, and they posted it up on their website without regard to the consequences; dear God, now other websites will assume it is fact, simply because Gateworld was dumb enough to post it themselves". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:24, 12 April 2006 (CDT)

:::We should not be posting here, as this is a place for alerts, but everything Gateworld get their hand on or reports seems to be true. Maybe they have the correct information. I already read the plot for Episode 1, Season 3. If you say GateWorld posts bad information, Gateworld would not be the place where you look up information. Simple math. We can discuss this further if you want on [[Talk:Season_3_%282006-07%29|Season 3 talk page]], but this alerts all the administrators. This is a trivial matter that could have been discussed on S&C also. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 12 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Shane, bother to read the posts I make. Gateworld *IS* an almost always good source of information....that's why it would be so damaging if they posted something wrong. Because then everyone would assume it to be correct, coming from a reputable source like Gateworld. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:55, 12 April 2006 (CDT)

:::::I'm afraid I just don't see the urgency. Rumors are rumors. The best thing to do is cite agressively and not hold our breath. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:57, 12 April 2006 (CDT)

::::::I agree. This is why I am moving this to the [[Battlestar Wiki:Wikipedian Quorum]], the more apt place for this sort of thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:03, 12 April 2006 (CDT)

== Screencaps ==

Just to notify people that I have all of Season 1 in HR-HDTV format (960x528 res), as well as Season 2 episodes 6 to 12 inclusive (960x540). If anyone wants me to take a screencap of any point in any particular episode, drop me a line at: kai (underscore) robinson (at) hotmail (dot) com

Cheers :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 15:13, 15 April 2006 (CDT)

:Thank you for that most gracious offer. I am curious, though - what HDTV format has those dimensons? As I understand it, HDTV should be in either 720x1280 or in 1080x1920. 960x540 appears to be a quarter the resolution of a 1080i image, and the 960x528 dimensions (20:11 aspect ratio?) are even more confusing. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:00, 15 April 2006 (CDT)

::As far as i'm aware the 960x528's are actually slightly cropped from 960x540 to produce the actual picture as the HDTV version still has black bands on it (only just). This is due to them being capped in Australia from 'Network 10'. The 960x540's are indeed 50% reduction in vertical and horizontal res from the 1920x1080i, but thanks to the way that 'UniversalHD' have broadcast them, there are no black bands to crop off. I still have to wait to see if anyone manages to pull off capping BSG from SkyOne HD when it starts broadcasting later this year, although judging from the amount of proprietary DRM crap they'll use, its unlikely. Still, the offers open to all that want the caps that i've got. --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 20:52, 16 April 2006 (CDT)
:::I didn't mean to imply that they'd be unwelcome - obviously, even 960x540 will be considerably better than anything we have here currently. Feel free to browse the newly created [[:Category:Screen captures requiring upgrade]] and upgrade any images which strike your fancy.--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:38, 16 April 2006 (CDT)
::::Wasnt taking it that way :P I noticed several categories for screenies for each ep, however, is there no place I can just upload a bunch of them to? If not on the wiki, then i'll create a separate directory on my webspace and post the URL for other more seasoned wiki veterans to upload... --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 00:37, 17 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Uploading images is pretty straightforward, all you need to do is pick a filename. They land in the appropriate categories automatically after you tag them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:39, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

== Can't find a picture ==

I'm looking for a picture of the Pegasus' rail guns in Resurrection Ship Part II. Any picture showing the Pegasus firing would work.
:How about the ones on [[Pegasus (RDM)#Equipment]]? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:47, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

==Sitenotice on Koenigrules vote==
Anybody mind if I update [[Mediawiki:Sitenotice]] to draw attention to the vote underway at [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad#Koenigrules/Hollywood North Report]]? (Moreover, can we do this for any vote of public interest in the future, such as RFAs?) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:04, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
: I'm fine with this. These things do affect the wiki on a wide scale, after all.-- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:27, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
::Done. I used a separate box since the Portal notice will probably continue to be relevant after this vote closes. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:35, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Great! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:43, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

== Battlestarwiki Deutsch ==

First of all, I'd like to thank all Battlestarwikipedians involved for creating the [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/de/ German Edition]. But the pages can be edited by anyone, not just registered users. -- [[User:Astfgl|Astfgl]] 07:26, 22 April 2006 (CDT)
: I'll fix that... :::rolls up sleeves::: -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 14:33, 22 April 2006 (CDT)
: Fixed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 14:44, 22 April 2006 (CDT)

== Main Page Redesign ==

Hey all. Just for a heads up, I have been working on a [[User:Shane/Main Page|Main Page redesign]] and will want your input before it does go live. The talk page (after you click the link above) brings you to the discussion. Also in the design are portals. The "look" is now working! So be sure to check out [[Battlestar Wiki:Portals]] to see some examples. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:00, 22 April 2006 (CDT)
:I think you should change the names like "President's Docket" to stuff that's more functional or intuitive; we get a lot of newbies in using us purely as an encyclopedia and I think it should be as new-user friendly as possible. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:13, 22 April 2006 (CDT)
::The top part needs some work; the large big box on top region; links to the quorum, other shows etc seem squeezed in; the quote of the day box needs some fixing for aesthetics. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:15, 22 April 2006 (CDT)

== Proposed Policies ==

[[:Category:Battlestar_Wiki_proposed_policies]] - I think we need to start going through this list and looking at these pages so they can be impemented or not with Community Consenus. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 11:37, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

== Community Portal ==

If everyone can give input on what we should include on the Community Portal, we could get it up and fully running quicker! Thanks! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 11:38, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

==An apology regarding spokesmanship==
As many of you have read, I [[Sources:Correspondence with Jim Iaccino|recently offered]] an apology to Jim Iaccino (a.k.a. Koenigrules) on the behalf of the Battlestar Wiki community, for the comments of one of our members. This was shortly after I [[Talk:Precipice#Question_about_Koenigrules|pointed out]] that it was inappropriate for any of us to speak as the sole voice of the wiki, and therefore makes my action extremely hypocritical.

I am fully aware that my status as an Administrator does not confer on me authority to act as a spokesperson for the wiki, and I apologize to any users here who may feel that I misrepresented them. In my defense, I will say that I felt it was a necessary step to restore civil discourse to a situation which was quickly escalating out of hand.

If Joe or the other admin staff feel that my action was inappropriate, I will abide by any disciplinary ruling they decide to issue. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:22, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:Ah, I don't see it as more than a single ''faux pas''. The end (apologing in proxy for others who personally insult someone to the point of slander on a internet site) justified the means (albeit unkosher). Given the harsh tone done by the contributors on the subject, I'd say it was the right thing to do. I don't feel you need to be busted down to take [[User:Day|Mop Boy]]'s job or anything (yet. ;) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:20, 1 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not want to drag this up again as it was resolved, and I agree that it inappropriate for anyone to act as sole spokesperson. However, my accusation against KR was at the time a believe based on facts available to me at the time, and I believed in them. **However, when I got pointed towards more information which dispelled the belief I had developed because of the earlier one, and it was clearly established that KR was a reliable source, things changed: rather than flying into a rage or adamantly declaring that I was right and would "stay the course" despite all the info, I changed my position, admitted my positiion was wrong (as there were things I didn't know) and appologized, and retracted the whole thing. This was resolved, and to be honest, more amicably than I had hoped. More to the point, before KR responded everyone here voted that they agreed with my (previous) position. I think this was all just a bad incident we need to learn from, developing our spoilers tags more and so forth, and I think we're making good progress discussing that. The kinks a Wiki site going through as it grows and becomes a mature full fledged site. At no time did I feel that Peter is or has been out of line; he needs give no appology :) officer and a gentleman all the way. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:38, 1 May 2006 (CDT)

== User Feedback ==
We, the editors of Battlestar Wiki, quickly become versed in the ways of Wiki-code. However, a great many of the users of this site lack such knowledge, and don't really want/need to learn it in order to use the site. The only problem with this (other than losing out on potential contributors), is that we don't really get feedback from them. [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] recently left some feedback on the main page redesign, and I thanked her for the feedback off-wiki, where she pointed out this problem. Does anybody have any ideas on ways that we could solicit feedback from users '''without''' having to use the "edit" button and wikicode? Maybe some sort of a simple javascript form or such that allows (even non-logged in users?) to post thoughts/suggestions? It'd be ripe for vandalism, but I'd like to hear from "the people". --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:02, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
:One option: Starbuck, the head honcho over at the [http://galacticabs.com Galactica BS forum] has offered that forum as a possible place for getting feedback about the wiki. I told her I would convey the offer here. (I wasn't acting as a spokesman, but just was brainstorming with Mazzy and Starbuck offered.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:13, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
::Excellent. PaperBagPrincess (a.k.a. Starbuck) rocks. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:39, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
::Not a bad idea, and it prevents spamming email boxes or wikis. I'd be interested in Joe's take. Are our portals useable as chat boards? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:22, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Unfortunately (or fortunately?) the portals are bound by the same restrictions as any other article. It's just a pattern for laying out the content. I was thinking maybe a javascript form with a simple text box, but when Starbuck offered I thought it was an interesting idea. The wiki's weakest area is in simple communication, and partnering with a message board (run by us or otherwise) might allow us to help overcome that deficit. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:29, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
::::I own a vBullitien lience with no "forum" to hold it on. Though I think that it is great to "chat", alot of the Wiki stuff must happen on the Wiki because it's easy to link to different areas. However, we should not use a sperate outside "community" forum. I would be willing to donate my licence for use on Joe's server. (http://forum.battlestarwiki.org/) which could be intergrated with the Wiki "user" database so that you would not have to create a sperate user database. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:02, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
::::: Well i figure i should throw this in, Shane has a valid point about not being a public forum. Starbuck assured me it could be done privately and if you needed external mods from our site we could help (there are those who have little wiki contact) but you could also do the admin stuff yourself. I dunno exactly what you are looking for but i think a place where non article discussions and feedback could be handled in a more unser friend and easily moderated place would have a positive impact. Guests can log in and comment as well. I personally am just learning the administrative functions but the board that Shane mentioned and the Invision power board formats would be adaptable to your needs. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 17:18, 1 May 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Main Page/Archive6

2006-05-01T17:14:22Z

Mazzy: /* New Main Page Design */

: ''View [[Talk:Main Page/Archive|archived discussions]] prior to July 7, 2005 at the link provided.''

== Suggestions ==

To make any suggestions as to the format of the main page, please leave them here. Thanks! -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:49, 9 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Hello Joe, I was wondering if their might be a possibility of us adding on a message board for members of BSG Wiki to discuss the actual show rather than the website itself. I think that if we created a community message board it would promote a greater community/fraternity among the members and if we limited it to members it might decrease the number of random messages left on the board. I know it is kind of unwiki of us to do this but since this particular site it concerned with BSG rather than a plethora of items I thought it might be a good idea. What do you think? [[User:Zarek Rocks]]

:If you're looking for a good BSG-related message board, you could try the one at [http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showforum=745 Television Without Pity] --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:40, 9 Aug 2005 (EDT)

:: I know that there is a pretty good message board at [http://www.galacticastation.com Galactica Station], as well. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:34, 10 Aug 2005 (EDT)

The next High Definition/Dolby Digital 5.1 broadcast of Battlestar Galactica is "Flight of the Phoenix" which airs Sunday 2/26/2006 at 8pm EST on the Universal HD channel. The Universal HD channel is available from Dish Network and DirecTV as well as many cable operators. Please update the main page with this info. http://www.universalhd.com/Schedule/search.bravo?month=2006-12&keyword=Battlestar&start=today
:The "article of the day" content on the main page should be free for editing by all users in both the [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Template:Article/Spoiler-free&action=edit spoiler free] and [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Template:Article&action=edit spoiler versions]. (Ideally both would be updated at the same time, so they both stay current, although it appears the "spoiler version" may be a bit behind the times. The Main Page itself is protected (so normal users can't mess with the formatting), but most of the actual content is made up of user modifiable templates. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:46, 23 February 2006 (EST)

Thanks. Updated the page myself. --[[User:mattchan|mattchan]]

Not really a suggestion for the main page but wasnt sure where to put it. I propose changing the [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/skins/common/images/redirect.png redirect image] to one that doesnt look like grey dots (black anti-aliased text on black bg). Perhaps a simple inversion of colours will suffice? [[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 07:58, 28 March 2006 (CST)

== Style Conventions ==

I didn't know what the approaite discussion page for this would be, so I am putting it here as a first stab. I have a question about the "tense" convention being used here on BSG-wiki. While some have noted that this is not wikipedia, I am curious as to why we are using present tense usage on events which occurred prior to the current "timeline" within the show? It seems to me events as they unfold and described here, should be used in the past-tense while ongoing terms and concepts that are presumed still active within the context of the "current timeline" of the show would be present-tense. For example, shouldn't descriptions of Baltar's background, and events which have already occurred on Caprica, etc. be in the past-tense, while referring to him as the Vice-President, and duties onboard ''Galcatica'', etc. be present-tense? Likewise shouldn't passages about say the development of the Mark II Viper be past-tense, while current disposition and capabilities of the Mark II be present-tense? Not trying to be overly pedantic, but if we were to use and adopt the convention that this "encyclopedia" were to be discussing things and concepts within BSG as if it "were real" so-to-speak, like say in a present day encyclopedia would describe the development of the F-14 Tomcat in past-tense terms but describe current description of the presently active variants of the F-14 (i.e. the F-14D) and its deployment and present status within the arsenal of the United States Navy, it would be present-tense. Contrast that with descriptions of say, a WWII German Stuka Bomber which would all be past-tense in a current day encyclopedia. Any thoughts? [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 12:38, 30 November 2005 (EST)

::The [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]] project article should be your first stop. Lords know we've all gone this way and that over the very things you've noted. You'll probably find your answer there (and see my reply to you on my talk page on the specifics of tense in character pages based on what's in the standard). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:26, 30 November 2005 (EST)

== Quote-o-Matic ==
What's with the (non-working) quote o the day on the front page? Is this a template problem, or what? Can I help? ....or what? [[User:Colonial one|Colonial one]] 22:54, 16 Aug 2005 (EDT)
:There is no automatic script to generate the quotes. They must be added manually per day. You can add them yourself, should you choose to take up the task. :-) -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:09, 16 Aug 2005 (EDT)
::I'd like to add a quote, but, uh... I don't want to mess it up because it then won't be seen for a year, I think. Is there a way to look at quotes that have already been put in, so I can copy the formatting? I tried the little Quote link, but the one that was added for 08 29 wasn't on there, so I think that's not right. Or something. I'm such a confused noob. ;) --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:59, 30 August 2005 (EDT)
:: That's OK, Day. I (or someone) can do a template for a quote-of-the-day. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:49, 30 August 2005 (EDT)
:::On that note, how can I see a list of templates, in case I want to utilize one. So far the only way I've figured it out, is to find a page that uses it, edit that, to steal the template info, then go to the place I'd want to use it, paste it in, then change the stuff appropriately. --[[User:Day|Day]] 11:50, 30 August 2005 (EDT)
:::Whenever this all gets sorted out, I guess it needs to go here: [[Template:Quote of the Day/Readme]]. I can certainly do it, it's just the link is small, and I thought I'd note it here for future reference, as well. --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:09, 31 August 2005 (EDT)
::::So... I guess I should go ahead and ask some specific questions... I assume we incluse the words said in double-quotes. It's really the attributation... attribution... Whatever--the indication of who said it that's the issue. Do we put the name with a dash before? Two dashes? Do we do it in-line or on the next one down or two down? Do we do it in italics or bold or normal font? Do we say the situation all the time or only if needed? Should we link the episode it came from? These are the kinds of things I think should be in the readme. --[[User:Day|Day]] 19:15, 1 September 2005 (EDT)
:Yo, just thought I'd add that I worked on the [[Quotes]] page quite a bit. It displays all current quotes (that I know of). And it should be super-easy to link to more quotes now, just check the source for example. ~ [[User:Aero|Aero]] 00:06, 30 September 2005 (EDT)
::I thought I should mention, today's quote is wrongly said. The actual words were something around "If President Adar stepped out of that Raptor I would be elated.." --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 10:15 19 April 2006

== NPOV? ==
Does BattlestarWiki have a NPOV policy, as Wikipedia.org does? I was noticing some pretty strong POV in [[James Callis]], for example. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 10:10, 12 September 2005 (EDT)

: It does, indeed. For reference, see the [[Battlestar Wiki:Welcome, newcomers]] page. Hope that's helpful. --[[User:Day|Day]] 18:04, 12 September 2005 (EDT)

There also seems to be a great deal of opinion in the "analysis" section of most episode guides. Is it the intent to not use NPOV in this section? - Jason

== Fan Fiction ==
Since we don't have a community portal yet, I suggest listing fan fiction pages here for later deletion or movement to the forthcoming fanfiction site.
* [[History of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol]] --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 12:18, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

==IRC Channel?==
Some friends and I have an [irc://irc.villageirc.net/battlestargalactica IRC channel] set up for discussion of BSG. Would it be appropriate/acceptable to link to it in the 'Community' box on the [[Main Page]]? Or elsewhere? ~ [[User:Aero|Aero]] 00:06, 30 September 2005 (EDT)
:As I've seen no objections in several months, I guess I'll go ahead and do it ;P ~ [[User:Aero|Aero]] 20:28, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== How BSG Wiki Compares to Other Wikis ==

I've been visiting other wikis that include SF content, just to compare them to the BSG Wiki. You can visit yourself, but I'm happy to say that, in my slightly-biased review, the Battlestar Galactica Wiki is among the most concise, detailed, and well-maintained wikis of its kind, although there's lots of work to be done. If I were to give a rating out of ten stars to the places I've visited, these would be my grades, based on

# Depth and relevant content (overall breadth of material; is it a true encyclopedia or overly-POV?)
# Detail of popular pages, such as central characters or events
# Photo content and other illustrative content in articles
# Server speed, wiki navigation and design, and convenience in access

* '''Battlestar Wiki''': 7.5 out of 10
* '''[http://en.wikipedia.org Wikipedia]''': 9.5 out of 10
* '''[http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Main_Page Memory Alpha]''', the Star Trek wikpedia: 9 out of 10
* '''[http://tgm.firstones.com/wiki/Main_Page The Great Machine]''', the Babylon 5 wikipedia (of which BSG Wiki was inspired): 4 out of 10
* '''[http://tviv.org/wiki/Main_Page The TVIV Wiki]''', a general TV episode encyclopedia: 6.5 out of 10

Of these, the venerable '''Wikipedia''' still holds as king of the wikis with the many, many contributors that are ceaseless in their relative accuracy. Only the anonymous editing (and resultant spamming) deters from this site. Almost every page in Wikipedia has substantial content or illustration. '''Battlestar Wiki''' lacks the sheer number of pages (of which I cannot accurately determine; how about an article counter, Joe?) but its depth and relevant information per page on its best pages equals Wikipedia's standard. BSG Wiki has one Achille's Heel; ''the comparative lack of information on the Original Series pages as opposed to the Re-imagined Series is almost shameful'', which brought the wiki's personal score down 1 point.

The '''Babylon 5 Wiki''', where Joe got his inspiration to build this wiki, is sadly in poor shape. Central character pages such as Delenn and Sheridan are extremely sparse, almost to major stub levels. Episode pages aren't bad, although they're remarkably short in comparison to BSG Wiki's. '''Memory Alpha Wiki''' is a powerfully built wiki for Star Trek, with excellent cross referencing and depth on character and episode pages. Perhaps the wiki is ''too'' large as the massive amount of aired information, combined with book and fan fiction and serious contradictive elements makes for reading the wiki a bit of a chore. And, unfortunately, Star Trek has serious canonical issues that make the wiki's data difficult to authenticate. On a lighter note, '''The TVIV Wiki''' is a fun wiki to any television show, which includes some BSG episode pages with GREAT screen caps. It just got started last July and has some performance issues, but is shaping up to be a good wiki.

BSG Wiki is coming up on its one-year anniversary, and has a lot to show for itself. Congratulations to everyone as a fellow contributor, and help the lesser wikis out when you're not pondering things here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:48, 6 December 2005 (EST)

: Wow. I really have nothing to add to this -- it's pretty much spot on. Particularly the point of the difference in quality between TOS and TNS content. If anything else, it demonstrates that there's more interest in TNS than TOS. (Although this doesn't mean that this isn't an area that needs work -- it does.) Another minor note, I really didn't get the inspiration from the B5 Wiki -- I was more inspired by the Lurker's Guide than anything else -- but the only thing that is inspired from it is the main page format, that's really it. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:12, 7 December 2005 (EST)

== Logo ==
[[Image:Bsg logo test.jpg]] 
Made a new logo for the wiki. Do people prefer it? And is it possible to change anyway?--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 02:54, 3 January 2006 (EST)

: Heh. This is the third (as far as I know) new logo on offer. Cf. [[User talk:Joe.Beaudoin#Logo]] --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:35, 3 January 2006 (EST)

== Quotes link ==

This is all fairly trivial, but at the bottom of the page there is 2 links for quote of the day: readme and edit. The readme one links the current quote, which seems a little pointless to me when you can read it on the main page. Also readme implies a helpful explanation of something or whatever. Edit is an external style link for some reason. Plus "article of the day" is the articles of intrest, and not updated daily. As I said, not important, just thought I'd point it out.--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 07:22, 7 January 2006 (EST)
:We've been discussing this for the past week or so; can't seem to find "quality" articles...--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:25, 7 January 2006 (EST)
::I agree that we need to wait for the wiki to grow before having an article of the day, I'm just suggesting that the link be renamed to articles of intrest as it actually is in the meantime.--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 20:13, 7 January 2006 (EST)

== Article count ==

It'd be cool to have an article count near the top of the page. Most wikis have one, and I think its neat. Almost 1000 articles now :).--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 02:43, 29 January 2006 (EST)
: I'll put one up next time I get to edit the Main Page. (Actually, any admin can now edit the main page directly, should the choose.) And most of those thousand articles are quality as well... Spencerian and Steelviper have been rooting out the "telephone" articles. :-) -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 08:52, 29 January 2006 (EST)

== Punctuation ==

: ''This discussion has been moved to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] at 10:53, 5 February 2006 (EST).''

==Update the spoiler section==

Only an adminstrator can do this, not me: the Cylon POV episode, "Downloaded", is in fact not canceled and never was. This needs to be updated.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:33, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:I think that [[Template:Article]] is not protected, so you can hack away at it if you don't like how I fixed the "cancellation". You might use the Admin notice board if you want to get Admins on something even quicker (even though I generally patrol Recent Changes pretty closely anyway). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:17, 5 February 2006 (EST)

==Navigation==

As a newbie to this Wiki I have found that navigating around it can be difficult. For example if you click on Episodes you are taken to the Category page for Episodes which simply lists all episodes in alphabetical order. Would it make the Wiki easier to use if there was a link to an introduction page for each of the series, ie [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Battlestar Galactica (TOS)]]. I would put the link up myself but I can't access the main page for editing. Any comments? --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 05:20, 6 March 2006 (CST)

:That's not a bad idea. A link to the series pages makes a lot of sense. You do have access to edit all the main page content, it's just stored off in templates (like [[Template:Content/Menu/Box1|this]]). However, I'm not sure if there's enough room on the RDM template without spilling over. If we have to link the headers, it would take an admin to do it. Let's let some others weigh in before we go linking to the headers, but if you can figure out a slick way to link using the templates (Box1,2, and 3 respectively), then you're welcome to take a shot. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 06:55, 6 March 2006 (CST)

::Thanks for the advice. The page I have linked to is headed TOS but it includes all three series. I think that if we go ahead with this the TOS page needs to be spilt into three. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 07:18, 6 March 2006 (CST)

:::That's interesting. [[Galactica 1980]] does have its own page, and obviously [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)]] is standalone. You're correct that we should probably look at reworking the Galactica (TOS) page to stand on its own better. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:32, 6 March 2006 (CST)

== Main Page Re-org ==
Would the mid-season break be a good time to ponder a new look for the main page? I've been moonlighting a bit at the [http://galciv.wikicities.com/wiki/Galactic_Civilizations_Wiki GalCiv II Wiki] (I started while the battlewiki was down, so it wasn't cheating!), and some discussions about revamping the front page their got me thinking about this main page. I realized that I don't really use the main page here. Part of that has to do with the fact that my starting point is usually the [[Special:Recentchanges|Recent Changes]], and I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done about that. Also, another of my main contribution areas focuses around the [[Battlestar Wiki:Original Series Article Development Project|OSAD]], which nicely enough has a handy sidebar button. So I don't need much out of a main page.

What changes do I propose? Well, the first thing that sticks out for me is the huge amount of "whitespace" (black, in this case) present under the intro. Part of this has to do, I believe, with the current size of the "Article of Interest". However, a couple things I'd like to see added would be a "featured article" (which I think used to be done, but was discontinued), and maybe some slices into the content (links to prominent articles or somesuch). I know we have the categories upfront, but I'm not sure if those are the best way to navigate.

I just wanted to throw the idea out there (since I was already stirring up trouble at LDYB, II). This page is protected, so if you're interested in playing with designs you can copy the source of this page to the sandbox or create a work area under your user space (kind of like [[User:Steelviper/CommunityPortal|this community portal work area]]). Or start from scratch. A lot of the updated content on the main page is within templates, so you could tie the templates into your design without necessarily keeping the layout of the page exactly the same (just don't mess with the templates, as that would affect this page too). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:17, 13 March 2006 (CST)

I been working on a new design for about an hour now. It's up [[User:Shane/Main_Page|here]] on a sub-page of my userpage. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 05:24, 14 March 2006 (CST)

Please see my comments on Shane's page. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 05:27, 14 March 2006 (CST)

To put this out here... if we go with a new main design, would it be after we got the basic foundation for all the portal's done? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 10:50, 17 March 2006 (CST)

: That would be preferable. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 10:57, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== IMDB Links ==

They should be used to a miniuiam. If I were a fan, I would be going back to the IMDB page for ever. This is why Crew and Stars need their own pages. Otherwise we are not keeping traffic to this site, but to other sites. Why should we have a Crew Page or Actor Page when IMDB gives us a listing of what they have done? If someone where ADD as I am, I would be going through and looking what else they be doing. I get lost. Lets create them a small bio, lets do it right. If they are a main cast bio them up. If they recurring stars with miniiual appearenes, point out which shows they were in. I am working on templates for this so it will be easier. Right now I only got a crew template going for Directors and Writers and they are the smallest group. But if you do any more linking with Actor names, make them their own Wiki Interneal Link, and I will get to the template later for them. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 10:27, 18 March 2006 (CST)
:Is it possible to link to another website from a wiki in another browser window? This would have the advantage of letting you see what is on the other website but also keep you on the existing page. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 12:55, 19 March 2006 (CST)

==Indexing on THE==
As I continue my ''crusade'' as Steelviper calls it, I am rapidly approaching the letter T. There are articles that have been indexed on THE. This means you have a number of pages, ie [[The Fleet (TOS)]] starting with T.

Should we be indexing on the next word, ie Fleet, The, for clarity? This also applies to episode titles. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 04:20, 6 April 2006 (CDT)
:Yes I agree, "the" should not be the index word --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 04:50, 6 April 2006 (CDT)
::That depends on what your definition of the word "the" is... oh, nevermind. Sounds good. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:42, 6 April 2006 (CDT)

'The' as used as a definite article --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 08:04, 6 April 2006 (CDT)

::: Steelviper for President in 1993!!! --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 23:17, 6 April 2006 (CDT)

:::It's "The Fleet". I don't know if we can fix the wiki code to ignore "the" for this and go to "fleet" and "f", but it is ''the'' fleet. --->either way fix a redirect or two I don't consider it a big issue. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:38, 6 April 2006 (CDT)
::::Down in the bottom in the category section you can specify what the wiki sorts on. You just put a pipe (|) and then your new sort text. So you might put "Category:A to Z|Fleet, The" (with brackets instead of quotes) to get it to sort off of Fleet. That'll only affect sorting in the specified category, and I'm not sure how many people browse by categories... but I thought I'd throw that out there. If you don't specify a sort text, it defaults to the article name, so it is unnecessary to add one if the article name is fine as an index. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:19, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

== "Wikipedia" ==
I'm pretty sure "Wikipedia" is a trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, and as such shouldn't be used here. The front page current has "The Battlestar Wikipedia". --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 10:28, 9 April 2006 (CDT)
:It's debateable. I have always had the feeling that as long as you try not to make money of a trademark, you can have it. Just my understanding of trademark law. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 13:02, 9 April 2006 (CDT)
:: Well, not exactly... Anyway, the term is inaccurate (and a holdover from the early days when I started the wiki), so I've changed it. I may have to go through some of the other older pages as well, mainly [[Battlestar Wiki:About]]... but that's about it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 14:25, 10 April 2006 (CDT)
:::I think it looks better as "wiki" now instead of "wikipedia" anyway.--[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 03:16, 11 April 2006 (CDT)

== URL Reffer Error ==

Joe, when someon tries to access the site from outside this wiki and they point to the address: [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/ http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/] it returns [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Index.php http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Index.php] which is an invaild page. You might have to re-write the rewrite rules during the update to 1.6.3 (more bug fixes, yes) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 08:11, 11 April 2006 (CDT)
:When I go to http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/ it doesnt do that. it goes to the Main_Page. Try clearing your cache and flushing your dns? Could be a problem on your end. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 08:50, 11 April 2006 (CDT)
::I tried that. I am using the wikipieda toolbar firefox extension and I have that excat URL in the settings, and when I click on the link it gives me an error if I am on an outside site. When I did the same thing for Wikipedia (EN), it went to the correct page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:15, 11 April 2006 (CDT)
:The actual URL is http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php. The "/wiki" directory is essentially a symlink to "en/index.php". -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:30, 11 April 2006 (CDT)

==Last.fm now playing image==
For a start I think this talk page needs a bit of cleaning up and a lot of sections archived... but anyway.

If anyone has been on [[:user:Mercifull|my userpage recently]] you might have seen my songs image. Well it takes its data from [http://www.last.fm Last.fm] by logging what songs you listen to using a plugin and generating charts each week of your listening habits. Well I made a Battlestar Wiki theme that anyone can use on thier own profiles if they wish.

Weekly artists: 
http://imagegen.last.fm/bsgwiki/artists/Mercifull.gif

Weekly tracks: 
http://imagegen.last.fm/bsgwiki/tracks/Mercifull.gif

Last track played: 
http://imagegen.last.fm/bsg-lastplayed/recenttracks/Mercifull.gif

[http://www.last.fm/onyoursite/chartgallery/bsgwiki/+yours/Mercifull/1 Create your own chart image] --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 09:45, 11 April 2006 (CDT)

== XHTML ==
"This Page Is Valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional!" The main page is now XHTML-ified! For whatever THAT'S worth. Let me know if I screwed up any of the formatting in my wikifying crusade. I also learned a horrible truth about the Content/menu template:

{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" style="border: 1px solid #a60003;"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| class="spoiltext_box"|There are no borders! It's just a red background "seeping through".
|}

I'm not sure how important it is that we meet that standard, but it's something I was only vaguely aware of (what with the /br's and all). I'll try to keep it in mind going forward. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:47, 12 April 2006 (CDT)

:That's really a disgusting tidbit about the spoiler box. Anyway, I'm impressed you got anything generated from Wikicode to pass a verification; I congratulate thee. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 21:02, 24 April 2006 (CDT)

== The Community & The Fan Stuff ==
The Community & The Fan Stuff are growing! Now, while that's a good thing in general, it's getting pretty crazy in terms of their little "boxes" on the current main page design. Most of my main page redesign thoughts try to capture all the original templates from the current design, but it's hard to incorporate such large groups as they tend to overwhelm. Is there any way the sections could be seamlessly subdivided into logical sections, so that they can still be edited, still appear to be part of one group on this design, but are broken up into smaller sections under the covers (so that they might more easily be moved around when playing with designs)? Looking at the links there seem to be:
# Official Sites
# News Sites
# Forums
# Character Pages
# i18n Community

The fan stuff is currently being dominated by the RPG elements. The only other component to the fan stuff is the mods/games. Maybe we might try to find room for the [[Fan fiction]] article in there somewhere? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:20, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

Add this: http://www.mediablvd.com/forums/index.php?showforum=180 to links please. Wish I had known about this ''before'' everything--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:41, 24 April 2006 (CDT)

: '''Sigh...''' That didn't help. (I went ahead and added it though. I also fixed the "edit" buttons on the link boxes so the bottom ones worked as intended (they were pointing to the top boxes instead... my bad).) In my "logical" scheme that would be another "forum" link, though. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:47, 24 April 2006 (CDT)

::While I'm on the subject, the current Aauron Douglas forum link is just a subforum of MediaBlvd so it is redundant; there is a Aaron Douglas fansite, http://aarondouglas.biz/index.php, which would be better as it even has a link to the MediaBlvd suforum.
::Also, we should add this good French site: http://www.battlestargalactica-online.com/, as well as this ''very'' good Czech site: http://bsg-cz.net/ (they often get news faster than most other sites thanks to some Bright Boys they have there that get their hands on stuff over the internet, but people often don't notice for a week or two later because it's in Czech). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:25, 24 April 2006 (CDT)
:::The links can be edited at [[Template:Content/Menu/Box4]]. (I went ahead and added/changed those links over, though.) I still feel like the list is getting pretty long. I like the way it is split up on the main page redesign. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 20:37, 24 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Yeah I don't want stuff to get long and all pushed around but I'd like to include everyone. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:00, 24 April 2006 (CDT)

== New Main Page Design ==
That's a pretty sweet design you've got there, Joe. Now that it's live, there are a couple of things that I'd love to see happen.
# get the "Featured" sections going for real (the current featured article and picture weren't really "elected")
# revamp and finish out the RDM portal (I generally stay out of the RDM stuff, and this portal has suffered for it. I'm hoping Merv will seize the reins with regards to the "Did you know" section, and that others might make some suggestions as to layout and content for that portal.)
I guess those are the "main" things I wanted to get at. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:21, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
:On the old design, there were links in the bottom of the page to the "edit" pages of each section on the page, can this be done with the new design so we know where to edit to make changes? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 11:30, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
::Ah, yes. The old readme/edit. Would that model be prefered to floating and "edit" button on the right side of the header section? (Like a section edit?). The "section edit" seems more consistent with the rest of the site, but some might argue that it makes the main page content too easily accessible. Any thoughts? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:35, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Yeah im not too fond of the idea of "edit" buttons all over the main page. But perhaps something in the footer or talk page? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 11:42, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
::::Oooh. Like a "Main Page Control Panel"? I'm liking it. I'll go gather some of the edit links, and maybe post a little something down here. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:44, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
<div align="center">
(''[http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Main_Page/Community_Section&action=edit community section]'' | ''[http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page/Friends_Section&action=edit friends section]'' | ''[[Template:lastairepisode| last aired episode]]'' | ''[http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Battlestar_Wiki:News/Cylon_News_Service&action=edit news]'')
</div>
::::These could go on the bottom somewhere, or towards the top of the talk page? (Also, we'd probably want to ditch the hardcoded urls. If we put it on the main page that's easy... I just wasn't sure how to use the appropriate fullurl variable on the talk page.) (Still need to maybe add buttons for the news section, etc? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:00, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
:::::I think we should try to get all of the old links we used to have up yesterday displayed again. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 12:02, 1 May 2006 (CDT)

Pretty good: off the top of my head, I think the box on the top (the red one) is a little too large and might need to be sized down; it pushes other information down the page, leaving mostly a blank space. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:53, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
:I'm with you. I think this problem resulted from squeezing the "Last Aired Episode" up into the banner, which pushed the portals down. We could potentially... give up half of the space of the quotes (50/50) with the other side being either the Last Aired box? I'm not sure how that change would cascade down though. Maybe if we cut down to just listing the three "big" portals (TOS, 1980, RDM) horizontally? We'd lose easy access to the ships, characters, and cylons portals, but it would make the banner smaller. Any other ideas? (I'll try to look at the html behind the banner, and see if I can figure out how to change the "margins" on it, but my html skills are pretty weak.)--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:08, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
:: It looks great. I have no suggestions, just wanted to express the positive. Thanks for all the hard work guys. --[[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 12:14, 1 May 2006 (CDT)

Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad

2006-04-24T17:02:52Z

Mazzy: /* A word about sources */

== Citation Consistency ==

"Zoic" is a name that sounds like what Shaggy from "Scooby Doo" would make when surprised, I think.

Despite being the special effects company for the series, I wonder how much of their information still holds weight. I noticed that Peter gave neither negative or positive weight to this source. As we go through pages, two issues are going to crop up, of which one may need to move to the Standards page.

* Consistent and useful '''visual''' separation and identification of TOS and RDM information and characters. I find the mingling of TOS and RDM data in the same article confusing and lengthens an article unnecessarily. More germane to this project, it will also keep RDM and TOS stats from cohabitating and confusing the citation process.
* We need to cite official sources for TOS information on the project page, keeping in mind this wiki is for both series. There are surely more TOS fan sites than RDM, and things like games, fan fiction and the like over the years have surely diluted what is official and not.
* The level of detail or a standard of detail on technical pages needs some kind of governor. At which point is something being reasonable in description (such as ''Galactica's'' rail guns) or is embellishment or technobabble that just gives fan service (like "''Galactica'' uses a BFG-3244 Rail Gun with Strapless Attachment")? I'd be more strict on this info than any other since tech is tech and such "facts" should not be different from what is seen on screen.

I think color coding article titles to identify TOS and RDM pages (rather than using "TOS" and "RDM") may be better on the eye. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:05, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

:I intended Zoic to fall under point 3, for "crew" - ie, of roughly the same reliability as that interview where Lorena Gale talked about how Elosha used to do "a lot of drugs". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:21, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

::I believe the actual word is spelled thus: ZOIKS! Caps are not optional. ;) --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:21, 10 October 2005 (EDT)

==Request for name change==

I am uncomfortable with the use of the term "Jihad". I would rather we use the term "Crusade", or perhaps "Inquisition"; I think "Inquisition" is best (i.e. Spanish Inquisition [no one suspects the Inquisition!] b/c it's rooting out unsourced information). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 13 October, 2005

:Striving for accuracy certainly has better overtones than any use of "crusade", and "inquisition" has draconian connotations. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:11, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:: I, uh, don't get Peter's post. Does that means he agrees or doesn't? Anyway, I'm fine with Jihad because it implies a religeous devotion and a fanaticism that I think could be, sarcastically, applied to the purpose of this project. However, I'm also fine with Inquisition because it implies a religeous devotion and a fanaticism that I think... You can see where I'm going with this, no? Also, the Spanish Inquisition sketch is my favorite Monty Python sketch in the history of Monty Python's being viewed by me. And I'd love for my comments on changing citation errors (if I ever see any, because I'm bad at seeing them) to be "Our chief weapon is Fear. Fear and surprise. Our TWO chief weapons are fear, surprise and a fanatical devotion to citation. Ah. Our THREE chief weapons are: Fear, surprise, a--" You get the idea.

:: I find it interesting that the name and the two proposed substitutes are all tied to religeon? We could have a Citation Rampage. Or a Citation Mosh Pit. Heh. Maybe we should be the Ministry of Citation. I always liked ministries. We would then address each other as "Minister Day" and "Minister Farago", etc. Or maybe one of you can come up with a more [[Wikipedia:Nineteen Eighty-Four|Orwellian]] name. That would be cool. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:52, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::To clarify: I like Citation Jihad. I came up with it, after all... --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:08, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: "Jihad", in this context, does indeed present - shall we say - disconcerting ramifications for those of us who are not Christian. While humurous to most of us (I hate to splash cold water) the casual use of such a revered term amongst a potential audience of Islamic adherrants is a wee bit less than delicate... especially in light of the suspicion many perfectly native or naturalized citizens of Mid-Eastern descent faced immediately subsequent to 9/11... and the suspicion they currently face every time they reenter the U.S.
:::: While rather fascinating that we should find ourselves encountering a problem delt with in more artfull ways in our favorite television program, it is nevertheless significant (dare I say important) that we handle this question of naming with a sense of diplomacy. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 04:12, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::I was unsettled--albeit briefly--with the name initially, but I'm not into political correctness. "Jihad" is correct in definition. Currently, however, some take the word with the same emotional charge as Muslims would hear "Crusade," since, essentially in the context of past conflicts between Christians and Muslins at war, both signify a religious purge. In any case, the term sites a religious note that might sour some.

:::::But before you knock Peter for his choice, consider our subject matter: "Battlestar Galactica" is a morality play in the tradition of the original Star Trek series, which addresses in allegory the Muslim/Judeo-Christian issue present through current terrorism against the West as well as the Israel/Palestine conflict by using the Humano-Cylon/Human and God/Lords of Kobol issue. If nothing else, the use of the term "Jihad" in its purest form is actually appropriate and striking so for this Wiki. Don't let the Al Qaeda terrorists or other extremists make you afraid of a word when in fact, it is THEY that slur it from its true meaning. Peter has always shown a concise use of words that has little to no ambiguity--I should know since he frequently slices my edits to their essence when I use too many words. I'll back up Peter on this one. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:43, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::Taking these points into account, I would greatly prefer "Inquisition" over "Jihad" or "Crusade". -- Ricimer, October 14, 2005

:::::::Good point. And very nicely said I might add. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 13:10, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::::: I hope you don't mind, Watcher, I indented your previous post one more. Anyway, I like Johad fine. I actually find it kind of refreshing to use it for something that's ''not'' violent. I'm not Muslim, so I can't speak to that. However, as an American I don't feel, I dunno, threatened by the name, or anything. When I first saw it, it gave me pause, but that pause was me thinking, "Whew. Someone's probably gonna throw a fit about that one." --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:13, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::::::Well I'm sorry but I do and I have. What's the consensus on this? --Ricimer, October 13, 2005

::::::::::Not a problem Day. I think there might have been an unintentional slip during one of the edits (notice the time/date stamps) but I seem to constantly screw this detail up anyway. Feel free. I may read as insufferably serious but I assure you that's not the case. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 16:50, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::::::: Good deal, Watcher. Anyway... I was about to make a post about not wanting anyone to feel threatened by this project, but I find I have to revise that. I don't want ''members'' of the project to feel threatened by the name. I hope people who don't cite sources are scared witless of us. ;) Anyway, as much as I like using Jihad, I tend to like to not offend reasonable people, so I'd be okay with a change, I guess. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:21, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::::::::: A note on nesting - if Watcher was replying to Spencerian, not Ricimer, it should be indented to the level of Spencerian's comment + 1, not Ricimer's + 1. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::::::::: Ah. Good to know. I shall endeavour to remember this. --[[User:Day|Day]] 22:47, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

===Votes===
We need to come to some kind of consensus, I think. So, first, is to change or not change. If we decide to change, then we can quibble over what to change to. Place your name under the appropriate heading.

====No Change====
# --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:14, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# --Not afraid of words when used properly. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:56, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# --Name doesn't bother me. [[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:46, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:51, 24 October 2005 (EDT)
# --Ditto Spencerian. Let's not fear words when used properly. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:28, 27 October 2005 (EDT)

====Change====
# Reluctantly --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 06:30, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# Wholeheartedly --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 09:46, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# Normally I don't care about words, but I have to admit, that in today's world, some words have become too negatively charged. --[[User:Cp.hayes|cp.hayes]] 14:30, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# Wholeheartedly --[[User:Lone Odessan|Lone Odessan]] 19:36, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
== BSG: The Magazine ==

I saw [http://www.titanmagazines.com/titanmag/app;jsessionid=57DACB1E3C47F38A718593747C30F921?service=direct/1/HomeUS/$NavigationBar.$DirectLink$2&sp=S8 this] on the news stand at Fry's and thought it was worth picking up an issue to see what was in it. I've so far read a whole of two pages, so I don't know much about it, except that it has an article on Pyramid that was interesting. Does anyone else know anything about this magazine? How reliable is it? I'm going to edit the Pyramid article with some things that are revealed about the rules. How should I cite this, exactly? I'm gonna go with page numbers and title for now. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:24, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
:Given that we haven't had much about the RDM show in print, I'd carefully use it to compare to the canonical stuff we have. If things are consistent, I'd say it's a reliable source since I strongly suspect that USA/Universal may have to sign off on its content. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:58, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
::I say we put it on level 4, (sci-fi and skyone websites), provisionally. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:41, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

::: Correction. The title is ''Battlestar Galactica, the Official Magazine'' even thought the words are not in that order on the cover. And, I must say, the thing was really clumsily edited. There are missing periods, 'and' for 'a', 'their' for 'they're', tense mixing, Obvious typos. Yech. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:04, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

==Citation Format==
Also, we should choose a citation format and stick with it. Opinions? MLA, APA, Chicago? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:41, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
:Damn it, Peter. I knew you were a student. You're going to force me to dig up a book or stand with the kids at the college bookstore, aren't you? :) [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
:: Are you kidding? I just graduated and never once bought a book on citation. All that can be [http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/legacylib/mlahcc.html found] [http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/workshop/citmla.htm on] [[Wikipedia:APA style|the]] [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html net]. I've only ever used MLA style before, however, I'd be willing, given the nature of web pages, to use something that just had footnotes with numbering. There was some tool Wikipedia has for this that I read about, but I don't remember much about it except that it seemed cool. --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:06, 14 October 2005 (EDT)
:::I would find MLA with numbered footnotes ideal. For "personal communication", we would do well to follow [[User:MASON|MASON]]'s example of including them in subpages, such as [[Mercury class battlestar/Sources]] (That should be linked to from the main article text, however.) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:16, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: Joe also mentioned possibly that we should scan things. What kinds of things? And, I assume those should go on a Sources page, too, neh? I think for whatever's on the sources page, we could do the foot note like this: (3) Personal communication (''or whatever relevant info''). See ''link to Sources page''. I also think Sources pages should have a link back. WHat do y'all think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:25, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::I Agree. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:14, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::By scans, I mean scans of publication articles and so forth. Scans should not be of the whole article but a snippet of the applicable text that was cited (enough to qualify as fair use). Also, as for linking the sources subpage, I created a template, {{tl|source}} that can be placed next to the applicable information. The template automatically links to the Source subpage. (Format: Article title/Sources.) Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:16, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::: How does that work, then, Joe? The syntax, I mean? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:29, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Character Ages==
Character ages across the site appear to be based on the age of the actors who play them. This would normally be reasonable, but the Timeline of BSG does not match the progress of time in the real world - the characters have aged at most three and a half months in the same time that their actors have aged two years. Since we can't infer ages more accurately than a casual visitor could be glancing at a character photograph, I would rather this information simply not be included. Opinions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:45, 15 October 2005 (EDT)

: I concur. --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:57, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

: Another thought: Ages are hard to pin down... I mean, we might learn that it is someones XXth birthday in some future episode. Wonderful. However, it's somewhat meaningless. An "Age" attribute in the template needs to be "as of" some date. Right now we use the Holocost as that date, but we're no longer exactly certain how far ago that was. So, if it's Cally's, say, 25th or whatever birthday in the episode after next... how old was she at the Holocost? 24, or so, I guess, but you see my point? I think the best solution, and perhaps this should be brought up on the characters project page, too, is to make the "Age" attribute on the template hide-able and then blank everyone's age out unless we know explicitly a number. I also think we should say it thusly: Age: 23 (as of [[Scattered]]) --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:50, 27 October 2005 (EDT)

==Railguns==
From the ''Official Magazine'' issue #1, p. 60: "Every Battlestar class warship has 24 primary railgun turrets as well as over 500 point defense turrets at its disposal." I don't have access to a scanner to prove that it says that, so you'll have to take my word on it. I'm not saying this is indisputable proof, but that it's maybe more than fanon, anyway. --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:The magazine is wrong. Based on on-screen evidence, the large turrets on ''Galactica'' cannot be [[railgun]]s unless we drastically redefine the very idea. This certainly trumps throwaway technobabble in a fan magazine. IMO, the only thing that should give us pause is if a character on the show specifically refers to them as railguns, which hasn't happened yet. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:51, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

:: Okay. I'll buy that. I bet that what's actually going on here is that someone somewhere who makes these desicions doesn't, actually, know what the heck they're talking about. I mean... What're we to do if someone busts out a ray gun and says, "This shoots a red lazer!" and then, *zap*, it's green? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:27, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

::: Oops. Ya did it now. Let's just hope TNS' writers don't become overwhelmed by the details and go the way of Space 1999. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 04:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Twelve Lords of Kobol==
Ricimer stated in his edit summary: "It has been stated numerous times that there are 12 Lords of Kobol".

This statement is true if by "numerous times" you mean "never". I've been over all the episode transcripts and found nothing. On this page, of all places, you should provide a source before deleting a comment. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:54, 11 November 2005 (EST)

==Magazine Content==
Ltcrashdown, thank you for your informative additions to [[Saul Tigh]] and other articles. However, for them to stand, we need to do two things:
#Make certain that we are ''not'' quoting the magazine word-for-word, or that where we feel compelled to do so, we set the text off and cite it directly.
#In general, any information from the magazine needs to be cited as well. To do this, we need to know some of the publication information, including:
#*The publication's name
#*The article's author
#*The article's title
#*Date and issue number
#*Pages referenced
Thanks for helping to keep Battlestar Wiki accurate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:50, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:Where do I place this information in the area where I quote it in Tigh's article? --Ltcrashdown 23:05, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::I will be happy to show you the proper format if you can provide the above information. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:15, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::Here is everything I referenced from the Magazine in the articles I altered. --Ltcrashdown 23:25, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:::Publication: Battlestar Gallactica the Official Magazine #3
:::Feb/Mar 2006
:::The Tigh info, Rising Star refence to Picon, and Battlestar Athena came from the article named 'Cylon Intelligence Report: Personnel File: Saul Tigh, Page 62'
:::The Alert Fighters and Colonial Day information came from the article named 'Cylon Intelligence Report: Galactica Glossary page 60'
:::The Colors for the Colonies comes from 'Encyclopedia Galactica pages 50-55'. I also compared it to information in Battlestar Galactica The Official Companion.
:::There were no authors listed for any of the articles.

::::Can you post quotes here containing the relevant details? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:29, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::::I am familiar with the magazine, and feel that we should *provisionally* allow information from the "encyclopedia" stuff at the end, but I also *suspect* that they make that stuff up without input from RDM. I don't know. It is the "Official" magazine. Should be on the same level as info from Scifi.com (which has been known to be wrong, etc.) HOWEVER, things that are straightfoward "interviews" which are a simple transcript of an interview; hard to argue that (like when actors reveal insights about their character based on stuff from the series bible we didn't know before). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::::Actually, I just saw that the magazine claims that Colonial Day is a biannual holiday; First, where would they get that idea? Second, Ron D. Moore ''stated'' in his blog that it is "not a biannual holiday; it's an annual holiday held every year". I wonder why someone got the idea to ask that. Etc. So it's now known to be not entirely accurate. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:40, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Okay, I'll try to post everything I found word-for-word. --Ltcrashdown 23:43, 1 February 2006 (EST)

'Colony: Aerelon' is a listing under the personnel file indicating his planet of origin.

Tigh's history specificaly says, 'Saul Tigh entered the fleet as a deckhand but rose through the ranks and was a CPO (Chief Petty Officer) by the time the First Cylon War broke out.' Ltaer it reads, 'Tigh joined the Colonial Officer Candidate School and was reassigned as a Viper pilot, something he excelled in, earning a string of medals in his post aboard the Battlestar Athena.' This is the only refence to the Battlestar Athena.

Tigh's post-War history is given with 'Adama reenlisted with the service and Tigh spent two years drinking before Adama pulled strings to get him back into service. Saul Tigh was straightening his life out when he met his wife Ellen, who he courted and married within two months. Ellen did not take well to military life, and her repeated infidelities drove him back to drink. Ellen and Saul separated shortly before the Cylon attack.'

The Rising Star info was taken from later in teh article with the sentence, 'Three weeks after the Cylon attack Tigh's wife was discovered on the Rising Star, a carrier from Picon.'

The definitions are:
'Colonial Day - An biannual holiday which celebrates the signing of the Articles of Colonization.'
'Alert Fighters - A rotating group of Colonial Vipers which are constantly ready for immediate launch. Their function is to act as support for the Combat Air Patrol.

The colonial colors are just images, so there's nothing to type, but it corresponds with the same colors in the Official Battlestar Companion.

:Excellent, thank you.

:The MLA citation format for a magazine article with no author is as follows:

::"Title of Article." Title of Magazine. Date: Pages.

:So, to use the Saul Tigh article as an example:

::"Cylon Intelligence Report: Personnel File: Saul Tigh." Battlestar Galactica: The Official Magazine. Feb./Mar. 2006: 62.

:Introduce a footnote in the main body text using the <nowiki>{{note}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{note_label}}</nowiki> tags, and place the corresponding citation in a <nowiki>==Sources==</nowiki> header after <nowiki>#{{ref}}</nowiki> and/or <nowiki>{{ref_label}}</nowiki> as appropriate. I will restore your edits to the Saul Tigh article and cite them, to give you an idea. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 2 February 2006 (EST)

::You should also restore the 'Twelve Colonies' changes since all i did there was add Saul to the Aerelon natives and correctly match the Colors with their colonies. --Ltcrashdown 00:02, 2 February 2006 (EST)

::::Maybe he was busted down from CPO during the second year of the war. Or maybe as a Chief Petty Officer, he once served as a Gunner's Mate (though this is a bit of a stretch, I admit). --Ltcrashdown 00:22, 2 February 2006 (EST)

:::This information, however, is contradicted by the deleted scenes from "Valley of Darkness" where Tigh says that in the second year of the War, he was a "Petty Officer...gunner's mate" and not ''already'' a Chief Petty Officer when the war broke out.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:14, 2 February 2006 (EST)

:::::"Let's cut through it, shall we?" The magazine is obviously compiled by people who are worse fanboys than ''we'' are, and lack our zeal for accuracy. I mean, if they can't even spell "Gemenon" properly, I'm not really inclined to give them much credence. Their information should be taken with a very large grain of salt, when we take it at all. Frankly, I'm a little worried they're going to start using ''us'' as a source.

:::::(Dear lord, I'm using sci-fi quotes out of context and Ricimer's talking in a civil tone of voice. It's like we've ''merged''.) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:30, 2 February 2006 (EST)

Realize that it my ''business'' to know (of course you know, etc etc). Enough Batman-villian-esque theatrics. ***I only have the first issue, and need to read the other issues. Frankly, it's a combination of *REEALLY* good and really *BAD* material. Basically, they've got 5 or so articles that are worthwhile; but they're exclusive, plus they also give out concept art unavailble elsewhere. Long story short, *I would pay money for the few good articles in it*, but the problem is they want to "pad out" the magazine to get a certain length (and I'm going, "I would pay the same amount of money if you didn't pad it, because the other stuff doesn't add much") I mean, the first one has this *really annoying* '''LITERALLY''' Fanfic letter "from Starbuck" describing an air-combat manuever she pulled off in a Viper (in an article about Vipers). Now, let me remind everyone: ***It's a good magazine and has many good articles. It's just that some of the articles are obviously "filler". Thus, as I said, apart from the flat-out Interviews with cast members or articles written by like David Eick, Garry Hurtzel, production team members, etc. should be held under great critical skepticism. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:45, 2 February 2006 (EST)

: This whole thread has been a great read. Very interesting. I have the first issue of this magazine. I sourced it for the [[Pyramid (RDM)]] article some. I remember thinking mostly as you do, Ricimer: Some great stuff, the rest ''horrid''. They're good for interviews, artwork and not much else. The first issue had an interesting thing at the end that seems to be a synopsis of an interview (if I remmeber right) with the head costume person, which I keep meaning to reread and use to add some real-life info to [[Uniform]]. I've also been looking for the other issues in the place where I got the first one, but I can't find it. I a little wary of subscribing to the thing... It just seems like there's a line being crossed there. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:06, 2 February 2006 (EST)

==To Do==
*Deprecate citation templates in favor of [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cite/Cite.php#_ref-NYT_1 <ref> tags]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:44, 2 February 2006 (EST)

==BSG Books==

There was recently a novelization for the battlestar galactica mini-series. I was going to get a copy and add information from it to the wikipedia. Does anyone else think this should be done, assuming the novelization yields any new details (i.e. ships, pilots, etc.) --Ltcrashdown 00:14, 4 February 2006 (EST)

: Its come up before. That's where, I think, we got the name Natasi for one of [[Number Six]]'s copies. We're kind of wary of it, but I think there's further discussion on Six's Talk page. --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:51, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::I'm going to post my point by point analysis of it in a matter of hours. It is, on the whole, quite poorly written, and I don't think he had any official stuff to go on, just making it up. Regardless, per "Memory Alpha" template, it deserves it's own page which I will comment more on, but we should not base beliefs on it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:57, 4 February 2006 (EST)

== Sources namespace ==

Just to let everyone know, Sources have their own namespace (i.e. [[Sources:Pegasus (RDM)]]). This avoids having to use the subpage suggestion I had earlier proposed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 13:11, 9 April 2006 (CDT)

==Koenigrules / Hollywood North Report==
"Koenigrules" (KR) is the alias of Jim Iaccino, a popular reporter of BSG spoilers, whose reports are often cited and reposted by other sources. [http://lvpodcasts.autopodcaster.com/download.php?filename=Subject_2_Discussion_04_11_2006.mp3/Subject_2_Discussion_04_11_2006.mp3 Recent comments] made on the "[http://www.subject2discussion.com/ Subject 2 Discussion]" segment of the "[http://www.lvrocks.com/ LV Rocks]" radio program (transcribed at [[Sources:Precipice]]) raised the possibility that KR is merely re-reporting publically available information, and does not appear to be a credible primary source.

[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] investigated this possibility, and posted his findings to [[Talk:Precipice#Question about Koenigrules]]. [[User:Peter Farago|I]] raised the possibility of instating a policy against citing KR's reports as credible sources on Battlestar Wiki, which was seconded by [[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]].

Consequently, I am opening a formal vote here on the matter. Please review [[Sources:Precipice]], its putative [http://www.nowcasting.com/sides/Episodic/BATTLESTAR%20GALACTICA/301%20Occupation/Selloi_Dedona_4pgs.pdf source material], and The Merovingian's comments on [[Talk:Precipice#Question about Koenigrules]] prior to casting your vote, and feel free to raise any questions below. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:18, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update:''' Koenigrules has responded to a number of our concerns via e-mail. You can read my correspondence with him at [[Sources:Correspondence with Jim Iaccino]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:36, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

===In favor of a policy against citing KR as a primary source===
#<del>[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:36, 19 April 2006 (CDT) - I feel like this guy betrayed us. And it's getting worse; 4-5 news sites report things he says as fact; he is not helping at all. Dogger said: "''He often fails to differentiate what he is reporting from his own speculation, an oversight compounded by the fact that his speculation is hampered by a lack of attention to detail.''"-->He put that more clearly than I could. Way to go Dogger. :)</del>
#[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:11, 20 April 2006 (CDT) If he originates nothing, we lose nothing by not citing him.
#[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:34, 20 April 2006 (CDT) - We do NOT claim to be a primary source here, and everything that is stated as fact should be citable elsewhere. Our sources are therefore our foundation, so they should be held to a high standard.
#[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:30, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:21, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 03:16, 21 April 2006 (CDT) I'm against the publication of anything except the facts.
# [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 17:12, 21 April 2006 (CDT) This is site is a reference, it would be misleading to publish anything other than citable information.
#[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 17:15, 21 April 2006 (CDT) I must concur. Too much flotsam.
#[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 20:38, 21 April 2006 (CDT) <del>I've never heard KR 'reveal' anything that I haven't already seen from another source. I have always seen him as just somebody who reads the same things I read and then repeats them in another venue, but with an extra helping of certainty.</del> He often fails to differentiate what he is reporting from his own speculation, an oversight compounded by the fact that his speculation is hampered by a lack of attention to detail. <del>Perhaps what he does might have some value as a 'digest' of what is being talked about, but I don't see why anyone but the most naive listener would consider him as a primary source.</del>
:::I have struck out parts of my comments that seem to have been proven wrong by some of the history presented in the thread on Skiffy. However, I cannot in good conscience change my vote because of the simple fact that I don't think that anyone claiming an anonymous source should really be considered a primary source, even if that source is genuine. Perhaps 'blacklist' is the wrong word. I simply see this as a test case for what is the appropriate kind of evidence that should be cited as authoritative. Singling out KR is probably unfair, but that doesn't change what I honestly think to be not an appropriate primary source for a wiki. If there were a vote to have a policy against citing any anonymous source as a primary source, then I would be in favour of that too. I consider this vote to be just an example of what I think should be an overall principle. For example, if KR were to name his source, then I don't see any reason not to consider citing that information. The problem I have is not with KR's honesty in particular -- it's with the idea of citing a source without giving the reader the benefit of evaluating its reliability, and that includes anonymity as well as the mixing of facts with speculation.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 19:36, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Gouge|Frankie Gouge]] 02:20, 22 April 2006 (EDT) Credibility is too hard to earn to risk needlessly. Plenty of other sites to get speculative spoilers.
#[[User:Bowersj8|Bowersj8]] 14:31, 22 April 2006 (EDT)

===Opposed===
#[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 22:21, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

===Abstain===
#[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 07:33, 23 April 2006 (CDT) Changed to abstain because I don't feel I know enough about this issue to choose either way.
#[[User:Quig|Quig]] 10:09, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT) Abstaining until his next broadcast.
#[[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:53, 20 April 2006 (CDT) After reading the unfortunate thread on the Skiffy board and the dialgoue established between Peter and KR, I will abstain until I determine whether or not this whole thing was worth the heartache for all concerned.
#[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:33, 23 April 2006 (CDT) Waiting for all the facts...
#[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:39, 23 April 2006 (CDT)As I've offered to give KR benefit of the doubt in compromise if he'd just be more mindful that at times when he was speculating or when he was giving spoilers was confusing, I'm switching my vote to abstain.

==Compromise Proposal re KoenigRules==
While KoenigRules and several of his collleagues insist that he does indeed have access to some sort of spoilers, all of them still will not confirm the veracity of these sources. Seeing as this is what they would do both if they were REAL and if they were NOT REAL sources, we thus arrive at an impasse. Therefore, I want to find some civil compromise over this: I'm a Uniter, not a Divider, and if we start turning on each other Rick Berman's new crackpot scheme to make Star Trek XI: Starfleet Academy will eat us BSG fans alive. '''Proposal''': If KoenigRules promises to be more careful in the future in his interviews, to *'''make it clear'''* when he is giving away '''direct information from his source(s)''', and when he is making a '''speculation''' ''based'' on either this purported source material, ''or'' just his own personal '''opinion''', we will reverse our decision to hold a vote to reject him as a reliable source. For example, if KoenigRules says in an interview "I think Baltar is a Cylon", he should really make it clear that that is just his opinion and not supported by any spoiler source information that he might have, as news sites might miscontrue his comments and lead to a world of trouble. However, the matter of HollyWoodNorthReport itself, which has come under frequent attack from many sites for improperly forgetting to use citations when they source material from other fansites, should be considered a separate matter.

I hope we can all agree to this.

:I don't think this subissue needs a vote. Koenigrules has indicated to me that he'll be able to reply here by monday. If he can adequately address the concerns we've raised, then naturally, the above discussion will be re-evaluated in light of that. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:21, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

===Support===
#--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:48, 22 April 2006 (CDT)

===Oppose===

== A word about sources ==

In lieu of all this, I am thinking of further clarifying the section defining what sources we should and should not use on the wiki. In particular, sources that are anonymous should not be referenced (this is fairly common sense, but isn't explicitly stated0. Also, for reference, we should probably add a definitive list of sources, grouped by categories from "uses anonymous source" to "trusted primary sources". (We have a list such as this already on the Citation page, though it could be better defined in my mind. ) Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:49, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
:I agree (though I don't know how to set that up using wiki code).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:46, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
::We would set it up just like the "Image tagging policy" page. The only question is how do we define what is legit and what is not? If we consider how big the internet and how vast information can be found, anyone who reports on infomration at a regular basis could be considered legit, as long as the information is true. (i.e. Gateworld vs. HNR). This would also not benifit the little people. So I am not really a fan of this, but in light of the problem with spoilers vs. fact, this might be needed. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:02, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Well it now seems likely that KR does indeed have a source: he's been heavily involved since the Miniseries, and was on the original nuBSG fan page. What threw me in all of this is that that site **no longer exists**, so when I was trying to fact check his credibility it didn't come up. He still cannot reveal his source without compromising it, so I think Joe's "annonymous source" spoiler tag idea might be best. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:41, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I think anytime something can be better defined, it is a plus to the accuracy of the project. =)-- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 12:02, 24 April 2006 (CDT)

Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad

2006-04-21T22:12:57Z

Mazzy: /* In favor of a policy against citing KR as a primary source */

== Citation Consistency ==

"Zoic" is a name that sounds like what Shaggy from "Scooby Doo" would make when surprised, I think.

Despite being the special effects company for the series, I wonder how much of their information still holds weight. I noticed that Peter gave neither negative or positive weight to this source. As we go through pages, two issues are going to crop up, of which one may need to move to the Standards page.

* Consistent and useful '''visual''' separation and identification of TOS and RDM information and characters. I find the mingling of TOS and RDM data in the same article confusing and lengthens an article unnecessarily. More germane to this project, it will also keep RDM and TOS stats from cohabitating and confusing the citation process.
* We need to cite official sources for TOS information on the project page, keeping in mind this wiki is for both series. There are surely more TOS fan sites than RDM, and things like games, fan fiction and the like over the years have surely diluted what is official and not.
* The level of detail or a standard of detail on technical pages needs some kind of governor. At which point is something being reasonable in description (such as ''Galactica's'' rail guns) or is embellishment or technobabble that just gives fan service (like "''Galactica'' uses a BFG-3244 Rail Gun with Strapless Attachment")? I'd be more strict on this info than any other since tech is tech and such "facts" should not be different from what is seen on screen.

I think color coding article titles to identify TOS and RDM pages (rather than using "TOS" and "RDM") may be better on the eye. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:05, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

:I intended Zoic to fall under point 3, for "crew" - ie, of roughly the same reliability as that interview where Lorena Gale talked about how Elosha used to do "a lot of drugs". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:21, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

::I believe the actual word is spelled thus: ZOIKS! Caps are not optional. ;) --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:21, 10 October 2005 (EDT)

==Request for name change==

I am uncomfortable with the use of the term "Jihad". I would rather we use the term "Crusade", or perhaps "Inquisition"; I think "Inquisition" is best (i.e. Spanish Inquisition [no one suspects the Inquisition!] b/c it's rooting out unsourced information). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 13 October, 2005

:Striving for accuracy certainly has better overtones than any use of "crusade", and "inquisition" has draconian connotations. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:11, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:: I, uh, don't get Peter's post. Does that means he agrees or doesn't? Anyway, I'm fine with Jihad because it implies a religeous devotion and a fanaticism that I think could be, sarcastically, applied to the purpose of this project. However, I'm also fine with Inquisition because it implies a religeous devotion and a fanaticism that I think... You can see where I'm going with this, no? Also, the Spanish Inquisition sketch is my favorite Monty Python sketch in the history of Monty Python's being viewed by me. And I'd love for my comments on changing citation errors (if I ever see any, because I'm bad at seeing them) to be "Our chief weapon is Fear. Fear and surprise. Our TWO chief weapons are fear, surprise and a fanatical devotion to citation. Ah. Our THREE chief weapons are: Fear, surprise, a--" You get the idea.

:: I find it interesting that the name and the two proposed substitutes are all tied to religeon? We could have a Citation Rampage. Or a Citation Mosh Pit. Heh. Maybe we should be the Ministry of Citation. I always liked ministries. We would then address each other as "Minister Day" and "Minister Farago", etc. Or maybe one of you can come up with a more [[Wikipedia:Nineteen Eighty-Four|Orwellian]] name. That would be cool. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:52, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::To clarify: I like Citation Jihad. I came up with it, after all... --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:08, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: "Jihad", in this context, does indeed present - shall we say - disconcerting ramifications for those of us who are not Christian. While humurous to most of us (I hate to splash cold water) the casual use of such a revered term amongst a potential audience of Islamic adherrants is a wee bit less than delicate... especially in light of the suspicion many perfectly native or naturalized citizens of Mid-Eastern descent faced immediately subsequent to 9/11... and the suspicion they currently face every time they reenter the U.S.
:::: While rather fascinating that we should find ourselves encountering a problem delt with in more artfull ways in our favorite television program, it is nevertheless significant (dare I say important) that we handle this question of naming with a sense of diplomacy. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 04:12, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::I was unsettled--albeit briefly--with the name initially, but I'm not into political correctness. "Jihad" is correct in definition. Currently, however, some take the word with the same emotional charge as Muslims would hear "Crusade," since, essentially in the context of past conflicts between Christians and Muslins at war, both signify a religious purge. In any case, the term sites a religious note that might sour some.

:::::But before you knock Peter for his choice, consider our subject matter: "Battlestar Galactica" is a morality play in the tradition of the original Star Trek series, which addresses in allegory the Muslim/Judeo-Christian issue present through current terrorism against the West as well as the Israel/Palestine conflict by using the Humano-Cylon/Human and God/Lords of Kobol issue. If nothing else, the use of the term "Jihad" in its purest form is actually appropriate and striking so for this Wiki. Don't let the Al Qaeda terrorists or other extremists make you afraid of a word when in fact, it is THEY that slur it from its true meaning. Peter has always shown a concise use of words that has little to no ambiguity--I should know since he frequently slices my edits to their essence when I use too many words. I'll back up Peter on this one. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:43, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::Taking these points into account, I would greatly prefer "Inquisition" over "Jihad" or "Crusade". -- Ricimer, October 14, 2005

:::::::Good point. And very nicely said I might add. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 13:10, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::::: I hope you don't mind, Watcher, I indented your previous post one more. Anyway, I like Johad fine. I actually find it kind of refreshing to use it for something that's ''not'' violent. I'm not Muslim, so I can't speak to that. However, as an American I don't feel, I dunno, threatened by the name, or anything. When I first saw it, it gave me pause, but that pause was me thinking, "Whew. Someone's probably gonna throw a fit about that one." --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:13, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::::::Well I'm sorry but I do and I have. What's the consensus on this? --Ricimer, October 13, 2005

::::::::::Not a problem Day. I think there might have been an unintentional slip during one of the edits (notice the time/date stamps) but I seem to constantly screw this detail up anyway. Feel free. I may read as insufferably serious but I assure you that's not the case. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 16:50, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::::::: Good deal, Watcher. Anyway... I was about to make a post about not wanting anyone to feel threatened by this project, but I find I have to revise that. I don't want ''members'' of the project to feel threatened by the name. I hope people who don't cite sources are scared witless of us. ;) Anyway, as much as I like using Jihad, I tend to like to not offend reasonable people, so I'd be okay with a change, I guess. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:21, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::::::::: A note on nesting - if Watcher was replying to Spencerian, not Ricimer, it should be indented to the level of Spencerian's comment + 1, not Ricimer's + 1. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::::::::: Ah. Good to know. I shall endeavour to remember this. --[[User:Day|Day]] 22:47, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

===Votes===
We need to come to some kind of consensus, I think. So, first, is to change or not change. If we decide to change, then we can quibble over what to change to. Place your name under the appropriate heading.

====No Change====
# --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:14, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# --Not afraid of words when used properly. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:56, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# --Name doesn't bother me. [[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:46, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:51, 24 October 2005 (EDT)
# --Ditto Spencerian. Let's not fear words when used properly. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:28, 27 October 2005 (EDT)

====Change====
# Reluctantly --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 06:30, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# Wholeheartedly --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 09:46, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# Normally I don't care about words, but I have to admit, that in today's world, some words have become too negatively charged. --[[User:Cp.hayes|cp.hayes]] 14:30, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# Wholeheartedly --[[User:Lone Odessan|Lone Odessan]] 19:36, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
== BSG: The Magazine ==

I saw [http://www.titanmagazines.com/titanmag/app;jsessionid=57DACB1E3C47F38A718593747C30F921?service=direct/1/HomeUS/$NavigationBar.$DirectLink$2&sp=S8 this] on the news stand at Fry's and thought it was worth picking up an issue to see what was in it. I've so far read a whole of two pages, so I don't know much about it, except that it has an article on Pyramid that was interesting. Does anyone else know anything about this magazine? How reliable is it? I'm going to edit the Pyramid article with some things that are revealed about the rules. How should I cite this, exactly? I'm gonna go with page numbers and title for now. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:24, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
:Given that we haven't had much about the RDM show in print, I'd carefully use it to compare to the canonical stuff we have. If things are consistent, I'd say it's a reliable source since I strongly suspect that USA/Universal may have to sign off on its content. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:58, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
::I say we put it on level 4, (sci-fi and skyone websites), provisionally. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:41, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

::: Correction. The title is ''Battlestar Galactica, the Official Magazine'' even thought the words are not in that order on the cover. And, I must say, the thing was really clumsily edited. There are missing periods, 'and' for 'a', 'their' for 'they're', tense mixing, Obvious typos. Yech. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:04, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

==Citation Format==
Also, we should choose a citation format and stick with it. Opinions? MLA, APA, Chicago? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:41, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
:Damn it, Peter. I knew you were a student. You're going to force me to dig up a book or stand with the kids at the college bookstore, aren't you? :) [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
:: Are you kidding? I just graduated and never once bought a book on citation. All that can be [http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/legacylib/mlahcc.html found] [http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/workshop/citmla.htm on] [[Wikipedia:APA style|the]] [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html net]. I've only ever used MLA style before, however, I'd be willing, given the nature of web pages, to use something that just had footnotes with numbering. There was some tool Wikipedia has for this that I read about, but I don't remember much about it except that it seemed cool. --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:06, 14 October 2005 (EDT)
:::I would find MLA with numbered footnotes ideal. For "personal communication", we would do well to follow [[User:MASON|MASON]]'s example of including them in subpages, such as [[Mercury class battlestar/Sources]] (That should be linked to from the main article text, however.) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:16, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: Joe also mentioned possibly that we should scan things. What kinds of things? And, I assume those should go on a Sources page, too, neh? I think for whatever's on the sources page, we could do the foot note like this: (3) Personal communication (''or whatever relevant info''). See ''link to Sources page''. I also think Sources pages should have a link back. WHat do y'all think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:25, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::I Agree. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:14, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::By scans, I mean scans of publication articles and so forth. Scans should not be of the whole article but a snippet of the applicable text that was cited (enough to qualify as fair use). Also, as for linking the sources subpage, I created a template, {{tl|source}} that can be placed next to the applicable information. The template automatically links to the Source subpage. (Format: Article title/Sources.) Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:16, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::: How does that work, then, Joe? The syntax, I mean? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:29, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Character Ages==
Character ages across the site appear to be based on the age of the actors who play them. This would normally be reasonable, but the Timeline of BSG does not match the progress of time in the real world - the characters have aged at most three and a half months in the same time that their actors have aged two years. Since we can't infer ages more accurately than a casual visitor could be glancing at a character photograph, I would rather this information simply not be included. Opinions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:45, 15 October 2005 (EDT)

: I concur. --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:57, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

: Another thought: Ages are hard to pin down... I mean, we might learn that it is someones XXth birthday in some future episode. Wonderful. However, it's somewhat meaningless. An "Age" attribute in the template needs to be "as of" some date. Right now we use the Holocost as that date, but we're no longer exactly certain how far ago that was. So, if it's Cally's, say, 25th or whatever birthday in the episode after next... how old was she at the Holocost? 24, or so, I guess, but you see my point? I think the best solution, and perhaps this should be brought up on the characters project page, too, is to make the "Age" attribute on the template hide-able and then blank everyone's age out unless we know explicitly a number. I also think we should say it thusly: Age: 23 (as of [[Scattered]]) --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:50, 27 October 2005 (EDT)

==Railguns==
From the ''Official Magazine'' issue #1, p. 60: "Every Battlestar class warship has 24 primary railgun turrets as well as over 500 point defense turrets at its disposal." I don't have access to a scanner to prove that it says that, so you'll have to take my word on it. I'm not saying this is indisputable proof, but that it's maybe more than fanon, anyway. --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:The magazine is wrong. Based on on-screen evidence, the large turrets on ''Galactica'' cannot be [[railgun]]s unless we drastically redefine the very idea. This certainly trumps throwaway technobabble in a fan magazine. IMO, the only thing that should give us pause is if a character on the show specifically refers to them as railguns, which hasn't happened yet. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:51, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

:: Okay. I'll buy that. I bet that what's actually going on here is that someone somewhere who makes these desicions doesn't, actually, know what the heck they're talking about. I mean... What're we to do if someone busts out a ray gun and says, "This shoots a red lazer!" and then, *zap*, it's green? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:27, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

::: Oops. Ya did it now. Let's just hope TNS' writers don't become overwhelmed by the details and go the way of Space 1999. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 04:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Twelve Lords of Kobol==
Ricimer stated in his edit summary: "It has been stated numerous times that there are 12 Lords of Kobol".

This statement is true if by "numerous times" you mean "never". I've been over all the episode transcripts and found nothing. On this page, of all places, you should provide a source before deleting a comment. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:54, 11 November 2005 (EST)

==Magazine Content==
Ltcrashdown, thank you for your informative additions to [[Saul Tigh]] and other articles. However, for them to stand, we need to do two things:
#Make certain that we are ''not'' quoting the magazine word-for-word, or that where we feel compelled to do so, we set the text off and cite it directly.
#In general, any information from the magazine needs to be cited as well. To do this, we need to know some of the publication information, including:
#*The publication's name
#*The article's author
#*The article's title
#*Date and issue number
#*Pages referenced
Thanks for helping to keep Battlestar Wiki accurate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:50, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:Where do I place this information in the area where I quote it in Tigh's article? --Ltcrashdown 23:05, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::I will be happy to show you the proper format if you can provide the above information. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:15, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::Here is everything I referenced from the Magazine in the articles I altered. --Ltcrashdown 23:25, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:::Publication: Battlestar Gallactica the Official Magazine #3
:::Feb/Mar 2006
:::The Tigh info, Rising Star refence to Picon, and Battlestar Athena came from the article named 'Cylon Intelligence Report: Personnel File: Saul Tigh, Page 62'
:::The Alert Fighters and Colonial Day information came from the article named 'Cylon Intelligence Report: Galactica Glossary page 60'
:::The Colors for the Colonies comes from 'Encyclopedia Galactica pages 50-55'. I also compared it to information in Battlestar Galactica The Official Companion.
:::There were no authors listed for any of the articles.

::::Can you post quotes here containing the relevant details? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:29, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::::I am familiar with the magazine, and feel that we should *provisionally* allow information from the "encyclopedia" stuff at the end, but I also *suspect* that they make that stuff up without input from RDM. I don't know. It is the "Official" magazine. Should be on the same level as info from Scifi.com (which has been known to be wrong, etc.) HOWEVER, things that are straightfoward "interviews" which are a simple transcript of an interview; hard to argue that (like when actors reveal insights about their character based on stuff from the series bible we didn't know before). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::::Actually, I just saw that the magazine claims that Colonial Day is a biannual holiday; First, where would they get that idea? Second, Ron D. Moore ''stated'' in his blog that it is "not a biannual holiday; it's an annual holiday held every year". I wonder why someone got the idea to ask that. Etc. So it's now known to be not entirely accurate. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:40, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Okay, I'll try to post everything I found word-for-word. --Ltcrashdown 23:43, 1 February 2006 (EST)

'Colony: Aerelon' is a listing under the personnel file indicating his planet of origin.

Tigh's history specificaly says, 'Saul Tigh entered the fleet as a deckhand but rose through the ranks and was a CPO (Chief Petty Officer) by the time the First Cylon War broke out.' Ltaer it reads, 'Tigh joined the Colonial Officer Candidate School and was reassigned as a Viper pilot, something he excelled in, earning a string of medals in his post aboard the Battlestar Athena.' This is the only refence to the Battlestar Athena.

Tigh's post-War history is given with 'Adama reenlisted with the service and Tigh spent two years drinking before Adama pulled strings to get him back into service. Saul Tigh was straightening his life out when he met his wife Ellen, who he courted and married within two months. Ellen did not take well to military life, and her repeated infidelities drove him back to drink. Ellen and Saul separated shortly before the Cylon attack.'

The Rising Star info was taken from later in teh article with the sentence, 'Three weeks after the Cylon attack Tigh's wife was discovered on the Rising Star, a carrier from Picon.'

The definitions are:
'Colonial Day - An biannual holiday which celebrates the signing of the Articles of Colonization.'
'Alert Fighters - A rotating group of Colonial Vipers which are constantly ready for immediate launch. Their function is to act as support for the Combat Air Patrol.

The colonial colors are just images, so there's nothing to type, but it corresponds with the same colors in the Official Battlestar Companion.

:Excellent, thank you.

:The MLA citation format for a magazine article with no author is as follows:

::"Title of Article." Title of Magazine. Date: Pages.

:So, to use the Saul Tigh article as an example:

::"Cylon Intelligence Report: Personnel File: Saul Tigh." Battlestar Galactica: The Official Magazine. Feb./Mar. 2006: 62.

:Introduce a footnote in the main body text using the <nowiki>{{note}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{note_label}}</nowiki> tags, and place the corresponding citation in a <nowiki>==Sources==</nowiki> header after <nowiki>#{{ref}}</nowiki> and/or <nowiki>{{ref_label}}</nowiki> as appropriate. I will restore your edits to the Saul Tigh article and cite them, to give you an idea. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 2 February 2006 (EST)

::You should also restore the 'Twelve Colonies' changes since all i did there was add Saul to the Aerelon natives and correctly match the Colors with their colonies. --Ltcrashdown 00:02, 2 February 2006 (EST)

::::Maybe he was busted down from CPO during the second year of the war. Or maybe as a Chief Petty Officer, he once served as a Gunner's Mate (though this is a bit of a stretch, I admit). --Ltcrashdown 00:22, 2 February 2006 (EST)

:::This information, however, is contradicted by the deleted scenes from "Valley of Darkness" where Tigh says that in the second year of the War, he was a "Petty Officer...gunner's mate" and not ''already'' a Chief Petty Officer when the war broke out.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:14, 2 February 2006 (EST)

:::::"Let's cut through it, shall we?" The magazine is obviously compiled by people who are worse fanboys than ''we'' are, and lack our zeal for accuracy. I mean, if they can't even spell "Gemenon" properly, I'm not really inclined to give them much credence. Their information should be taken with a very large grain of salt, when we take it at all. Frankly, I'm a little worried they're going to start using ''us'' as a source.

:::::(Dear lord, I'm using sci-fi quotes out of context and Ricimer's talking in a civil tone of voice. It's like we've ''merged''.) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:30, 2 February 2006 (EST)

Realize that it my ''business'' to know (of course you know, etc etc). Enough Batman-villian-esque theatrics. ***I only have the first issue, and need to read the other issues. Frankly, it's a combination of *REEALLY* good and really *BAD* material. Basically, they've got 5 or so articles that are worthwhile; but they're exclusive, plus they also give out concept art unavailble elsewhere. Long story short, *I would pay money for the few good articles in it*, but the problem is they want to "pad out" the magazine to get a certain length (and I'm going, "I would pay the same amount of money if you didn't pad it, because the other stuff doesn't add much") I mean, the first one has this *really annoying* '''LITERALLY''' Fanfic letter "from Starbuck" describing an air-combat manuever she pulled off in a Viper (in an article about Vipers). Now, let me remind everyone: ***It's a good magazine and has many good articles. It's just that some of the articles are obviously "filler". Thus, as I said, apart from the flat-out Interviews with cast members or articles written by like David Eick, Garry Hurtzel, production team members, etc. should be held under great critical skepticism. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:45, 2 February 2006 (EST)

: This whole thread has been a great read. Very interesting. I have the first issue of this magazine. I sourced it for the [[Pyramid (RDM)]] article some. I remember thinking mostly as you do, Ricimer: Some great stuff, the rest ''horrid''. They're good for interviews, artwork and not much else. The first issue had an interesting thing at the end that seems to be a synopsis of an interview (if I remmeber right) with the head costume person, which I keep meaning to reread and use to add some real-life info to [[Uniform]]. I've also been looking for the other issues in the place where I got the first one, but I can't find it. I a little wary of subscribing to the thing... It just seems like there's a line being crossed there. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:06, 2 February 2006 (EST)

==To Do==
*Deprecate citation templates in favor of [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cite/Cite.php#_ref-NYT_1 <ref> tags]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:44, 2 February 2006 (EST)

==BSG Books==

There was recently a novelization for the battlestar galactica mini-series. I was going to get a copy and add information from it to the wikipedia. Does anyone else think this should be done, assuming the novelization yields any new details (i.e. ships, pilots, etc.) --Ltcrashdown 00:14, 4 February 2006 (EST)

: Its come up before. That's where, I think, we got the name Natasi for one of [[Number Six]]'s copies. We're kind of wary of it, but I think there's further discussion on Six's Talk page. --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:51, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::I'm going to post my point by point analysis of it in a matter of hours. It is, on the whole, quite poorly written, and I don't think he had any official stuff to go on, just making it up. Regardless, per "Memory Alpha" template, it deserves it's own page which I will comment more on, but we should not base beliefs on it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:57, 4 February 2006 (EST)

== Sources namespace ==

Just to let everyone know, Sources have their own namespace (i.e. [[Sources:Pegasus (RDM)]]). This avoids having to use the subpage suggestion I had earlier proposed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 13:11, 9 April 2006 (CDT)

==Koenigrules / Hollywood North Report==
"Koenigrules" (KR) is the alias of a popular reporter of BSG spoilers, whose reports are often cited and reposted by other sources. [http://lvpodcasts.autopodcaster.com/download.php?filename=Subject_2_Discussion_04_11_2006.mp3/Subject_2_Discussion_04_11_2006.mp3 Recent comments] made on the "[http://www.subject2discussion.com/ Subject 2 Discussion]" segment of the "[http://www.lvrocks.com/ LV Rocks]" radio program (transcribed at [[Sources:Precipice]]) raised the possibility that KR is merely re-reporting publically available information, and does not appear to be a credible primary source.

[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] investigated this possibility, and posted his findings to [[Talk:Precipice#Question about Koenigrules]]. [[User:Peter Farago|I]] raised the possibility of instating a policy against citing KR's reports as credible sources on Battlestar Wiki, which was seconded by [[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]].

Consequently, I am opening a formal vote here on the matter. Please review [[Sources:Precipice]], its putative [http://www.nowcasting.com/sides/Episodic/BATTLESTAR%20GALACTICA/301%20Occupation/Selloi_Dedona_4pgs.pdf source material], and The Merovingian's comments on [[Talk:Precipice#Question about Koenigrules]] prior to casting your vote, and feel free to raise any questions below. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:18, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Vote ends 20:34, 26 April 2006, server time.'''

===In favor of a policy against citing KR as a primary source===
#[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:36, 19 April 2006 (CDT) - I feel like this guy betrayed us. And it's getting worse; 4-5 news sites report things he says as fact; he is not helping at all.
#[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:09, 20 April 2006 (CDT) I think he just read the infromation we had posted. That interview was almost excatly what we have on the site. lol. Vote to against citing KR.
#[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:11, 20 April 2006 (CDT) If he originates nothing, we lose nothing by not citing him.
#[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:34, 20 April 2006 (CDT) - We do NOT claim to be a primary source here, and everything that is stated as fact should be citable elsewhere. Our sources are therefore our foundation, so they should be held to a high standard.
#[[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:53, 20 April 2006 (CDT) Per above.
#[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:30, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:21, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 03:16, 21 April 2006 (CDT) I'm against the publication of anything except the facts.
#[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 07:35, 21 April 2006 (CDT) Ditto to all above
# [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 17:12, 21 April 2006 (CDT) This is site is a reference, it would be misleading to publish anything other than citable information.

===Opposed===

User talk:Kuralyov

2006-04-15T02:27:51Z

Mazzy: /* Let's Talk */

Kuralyov, where have you been getting all these spoilers? Can you hook me up? ([[User:Alphaboi867|Alphaboi867]] 18:44, 28 Apr 2005 (EDT))

==Spoiler Policy==

There's a discussion and vote at [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy]]. Why don't you throw your two cents in there? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:21, 29 August 2005 (EDT)

:A couple more options have been added since you cast your vote. You might want to consider whether either of them are acceptable to you. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:11, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

==Flight of the Phoenix==

Good job on the FotP basic write-up. I just modifed the F/A-22 reference a little bit. I need to watch that episode again in about one hour when it's on again, it was very good. Keep up the good work. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:55, 16 September 2005 (EDT)

== Resurrection Ship Summary - Hearsay or Confirmed? ==

Hi, K. As you may be aware, the Summary is the aired bullet points of the episode. It's a bad practice to add in rumor and hearsay from any source not official. Where is your source for Adama's promotion and Pegasus staying in the fleet? (I'm taking Cain's demise as for granted, although honestly I don't know if this will happen in the first or second part). I don't want to strike it this information if you can confirm it, but we have to keep the summaries with the facts and no speculation, which means the previews and official RDM statements are the only sources we should rely on. Something of it makes no sense: Why wouldn't Adama promote himself as the only flag officer of a fleet, while a commander runs only a ship? Did Cain leave promotion orders? Let us all know, please. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:31, 19 September 2005 (EDT)

==Let's Talk==

Kuralyov, I think we should have a conversation at some point. There's no need for us to be so standoffish with each other. I can be reached at "sillyparadoxboy" on AIM, or at "pfarago AT gmail DOT com" on Google Talk. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:38, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
: I agree. Please feel free to talk to Peter to air any concerns. :-) -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:03, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

–zoic
suff.
1. Relating to a specified manner of animal existence: holozoic.
2. Of or relating to a specified geologic era: Archeozoic.
[From Greek zōikos, of animals, from zōion, living being.] -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 21:26, 14 April 2006 (CDT)

==Downloaded==

Mr. Kuralyov, there are some who would find your comments on Referrences in Downloaded, "This episode seemed to equate the [[Resistance (organization)|Resistance]] with Palestinians, the Cylons with Israelis, and Caprica with Israel/Palestine.", as inflamatory. Regardless, it is POV: the Caprica Resistance appears to be a fairly genetic resistance, blowing up cafes of their occupiers; fairly generic ''modus operandi'' for any resistance movement, be it Parisians blowing up a cafe full of German soldiers, the Wolverines blowing up a cafe full of Soviet soldiers in "Red Dawn", or Irish Republican Army members blowing up a cafe in Northern Ireland filled with British soldiers. Please restrict yourself to the POV rules found under Standards & Conventions. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:37, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm not sure we discuss POV on S&C, but you might want to refer to [[Wikipedia:WP:NPOV|WP:NPOV]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Yes, yes, that's the one Farago, thank you. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:56, 25 February 2006 (EST)

User talk:Kuralyov

2006-04-15T02:26:49Z

Mazzy: = )

Kuralyov, where have you been getting all these spoilers? Can you hook me up? ([[User:Alphaboi867|Alphaboi867]] 18:44, 28 Apr 2005 (EDT))

==Spoiler Policy==

There's a discussion and vote at [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy]]. Why don't you throw your two cents in there? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:21, 29 August 2005 (EDT)

:A couple more options have been added since you cast your vote. You might want to consider whether either of them are acceptable to you. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:11, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

==Flight of the Phoenix==

Good job on the FotP basic write-up. I just modifed the F/A-22 reference a little bit. I need to watch that episode again in about one hour when it's on again, it was very good. Keep up the good work. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:55, 16 September 2005 (EDT)

== Resurrection Ship Summary - Hearsay or Confirmed? ==

Hi, K. As you may be aware, the Summary is the aired bullet points of the episode. It's a bad practice to add in rumor and hearsay from any source not official. Where is your source for Adama's promotion and Pegasus staying in the fleet? (I'm taking Cain's demise as for granted, although honestly I don't know if this will happen in the first or second part). I don't want to strike it this information if you can confirm it, but we have to keep the summaries with the facts and no speculation, which means the previews and official RDM statements are the only sources we should rely on. Something of it makes no sense: Why wouldn't Adama promote himself as the only flag officer of a fleet, while a commander runs only a ship? Did Cain leave promotion orders? Let us all know, please. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:31, 19 September 2005 (EDT)

==Let's Talk==

Kuralyov, I think we should have a conversation at some point. There's no need for us to be so standoffish with each other. I can be reached at "sillyparadoxboy" on AIM, or at "pfarago AT gmail DOT com" on Google Talk. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:38, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
: I agree. Please feel free to talk to Peter to air any concerns. :-) -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:03, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

–zoic
suff.

1. Relating to a specified manner of animal existence: holozoic.
2. Of or relating to a specified geologic era: Archeozoic.

[From Greek zōikos, of animals, from zōion, living being.] -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 21:26, 14 April 2006 (CDT)

==Downloaded==

Mr. Kuralyov, there are some who would find your comments on Referrences in Downloaded, "This episode seemed to equate the [[Resistance (organization)|Resistance]] with Palestinians, the Cylons with Israelis, and Caprica with Israel/Palestine.", as inflamatory. Regardless, it is POV: the Caprica Resistance appears to be a fairly genetic resistance, blowing up cafes of their occupiers; fairly generic ''modus operandi'' for any resistance movement, be it Parisians blowing up a cafe full of German soldiers, the Wolverines blowing up a cafe full of Soviet soldiers in "Red Dawn", or Irish Republican Army members blowing up a cafe in Northern Ireland filled with British soldiers. Please restrict yourself to the POV rules found under Standards & Conventions. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:37, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:I'm not sure we discuss POV on S&C, but you might want to refer to [[Wikipedia:WP:NPOV|WP:NPOV]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Yes, yes, that's the one Farago, thank you. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:56, 25 February 2006 (EST)

User talk:Mazzy

2006-04-11T02:40:20Z

Mazzy: thank you!

== Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! ==

Welcome to the Wiki, Mazzy. Feel free to tell us about yourself on [[User:Mazzy|your user page]]. Before you get started on other edits, please read the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]], which details the policies we use in editing pages (this differs from many other wikis in consistent use of phrasing, abbreviations, format, and the like).

Also, if you have any questions or suggestions you wish to offer, please feel free to do so either on your user talk page, the [[Battlestar Wiki:Wikipedian Quorum|Wikipedian Quorum]] or [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Administrators' noticeboard]]. Remember to sign your posts on any talk pages using four tildes (~~~~)! --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:37, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

Thank you for the welcome and the information. I don't understand the tilde thing but I hope I get it right. Is it customary to leave a space between enteries on this page? -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 02:15, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

:Yeah, but note that by leaving a colon at the beginning of your first line, you can indent an entire paragraph (hitting Enter and making a new paragraph necessitaties making a colon again). We also put two dashes -- in front of the four tildes. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:17, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

::Want me to set up your bio box? It's like the one I have, or the one I set up for [[User:AerynSun44|Aerynsun44]]--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:18, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

:::That would be great V, I'm sorry I punked out, lappy ran out of juice and so did I. Whatever you did for Aeryn I am sure would be fine. Let me know what you need from me.-- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 07:21, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Started the set-up for you. Click on the [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User:Mazzy&action=edit edit] to format it ho you would like. You can upload a picture of you if you like using the [[:Special:Upload|upload]] page. Otherwise remove the image i put in for you. Any row left blank will not show up in the profile. Experiment and see. Take a look at mine to see how I did it if you want. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 07:39, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

:::::Thank you for all the help, Merciful and of course V. Please bear with my learning processes, I will get better I promise. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 09:31, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

==Questions for anyone before I mess something up.==

I was checking the Racetrack page and noticing the spelling of her name is not the same as how it is spelled on her Raptor. I was wondering if that should be noted somewhere. Also I read that the actress has a prefered nick name for her Character and I wondered if there is a special place for those type of notes. Thanks for any info on what is normal practice with either of these things, obviously I am learning and as I get braver I will stop asking these basics. Thank you in advance. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 01:01, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:[[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]]. Otherwise, if people notice something wrong, they can fix it fast. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:06, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
::Thank you for bringing this to attention Mazzy. I'm going to go through my DVD's to get how the credits spell it. Which episode was her name visible on her Raptor? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:16, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

::: Thank you for the link [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]), I have read it. I was more concerned that it isn't a wiki error it is an inconsistency in the show and if we articulate them here. I appreciate your lightening fast response! -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 01:27, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I am sorry V, I don't know which epi, but I have the cap if that helps. And thank you as usual. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 01:27, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Can you link the caps? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:35, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::: Well maybe [http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b177/lymiryc/Racetrack.jpg] Ok we will see if that works... Thanks for your help V. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 01:41, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::I'm going to chalk that one up as a simple prop department goof (this happens all the time; someone misreads a memo, or simply paints the wrong thing, etc.) In this [http://www.galacticastation.com/Galactica%20Station/Screencaps/S2/208/bscap197.htm screencap] of her interview in "Final Cut", her name is ''prominently'' displayed on screen as "Edmonson" without a second "D", and all of her listings in the credits at the end of an episode following this call her "Edmonson". Looks like this was just a random one-shot goof. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:24, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

:::::::: Ok, well I didn't know if that stuff was logged seperately as well. Thank you so much for your time. If I happen to see anything to the contrary, I will let you know. Is there a record of goofs? -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 02:33, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

::::::::: Yeah im pretty sure its a porps goof, ive seen the name a few times and its not had the second D. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 03:10, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::: Thank you [[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] for affirming. I appreciate any and all comments! -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 16:52, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

==Very good progress==

It's great to see you started to get more comfortable in editing articles. Usually most new users stop after a day or two; always good to get devoted people here :) Don't worry if some of your stuff gets changed to, we're just playing around with it to get the most accurate stuff. If problems arise or confusion, don't hesistate to bring it up on the "Talk" page of an article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:12, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

:Because of time constraints etc. it will be slow going for me. I appreciate your feedback V darlin, I am a firm believer in proofers lol. I will offer what I can as far as revision, I understand the nature of the beast is to constantly revise, I was an english major, once upon a time. I will be tenative but not sensitive, I promise. Thank you for the encouragement. You know I adore your dedication and focus. I have clinical background in Forensics so if that helps define my perspective, understand I get the whole POV thing. One can not file a report in opinion, facts are obviously the only medium accepted and expected. So even if I think Apollo is the bomb, you will find I define him as a human male mid to late 20's, son of Adama, etc and so forth...damn it the arrow is irrelevant, in every way but my own fantasy world...grr. LOL Tchuss! -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 21:40, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

User:Mazzy

2006-04-10T23:51:45Z

Mazzy:

{{Character Data|
|photo= [[Image:Jet.jpg|200px]]
|age= still awaiting wisdom and patience
|colony= Scorpion
|birthname=
|callsign=Mazzy
|death= sometimes
|parents=
|siblings= many
|marital status= Thank you sir, may I have another?
|children= not as of yet
|role= Storyteller
|rank= Carpal Tunnel (equivalent rank = Admiral)
|actor=
|cylon=
|name=
}}
STINGER AND SHOWBOAT FOREVER!

My focus is on the secondary character pages. Starting with my favorites of course. Erratic, odd hour posting is to be expected.

____

OK so I started at the begining of the character list instead, as it seems that not all the characters have full names. I would like to assure pure neutral perspective as I think its is paramount for encyclopedic endeavors. However, should I become stilted, in anything other than user preference please feel free to call it to my attention. My opinion is never universal fact and I am completely aware of this. Thank you all for being so sweet, and indulgent. The character pages I am rereading, will be slow going as I am hitting the busy part of my year in my job.

Leland Adama

2006-04-10T23:21:29Z

Mazzy: lol misspelled decommission

:''The article discusses the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]] character with the pilot callsign of "Apollo." For information on his [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]] counterpart, see [[Apollo (TOS)]].''

{{Character Data|
|photo= [[Image:Lee Adama promo.jpg|200px]]
|age=
|colony= [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]]
|birthname= Lee Adama
|callsign= Apollo
|death=
|parents= [[Caroline Adama]] (mother, likely deceased), [[William Adama]] (father)
|siblings= [[Zak Adama]] (deceased)
|children=1 unborn child with Gianne (presumed deceased)
|marital status= Dating [[Anastasia Dualla]]
|role= Commander, battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''
|rank=Commander
|cylon=
|actor=[[Jamie Bamber]]
|name=
}}

== Biographical Notes ==

=== Background ===

'''Lee "Apollo" Adama''' is the eldest son of [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]] and [[William Adama]]. Together with his younger brother, Zak, he was raised largely by his mother on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], following his parents' divorce when he was eight.

Despite his father's estrangement from the family, Adama nevertheless inherited his passion for flying - a passion that saw him enrolling in the Colonial military reserves after graduating from college. Following his basic training, he graduated from the military academy third in his class and immediately applied for flight school.

Not to be outdone by his elder brother, Zak Adama applied for military service, a move that eventually brought tragedy to the Adama household.

Accepted into flight school, Adama proved himself a gifted and natural pilot, hampered only by his tendency to over-intellectualise things - a result of his upbringing with his mother, who encouraged him to read widely, and think freely (encouragement that lead him to read banned texts by the renegade [[Tom Zarek]] while at college ([[Bastille Day]])).

Graduating from flight school, Adama was commissioned as a Lieutenant in the Colonial Reserve, flying the [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]] Mark VII. During this time, he was also introduced to [[Kara Thrace|Kara "Starbuck" Thrace]], a training instructor at flight school, who was also involved with Zak Adama. While Adama was still at flight school, the three frequently spent time together, and Adama and Thrace developed a friendship through Zak Adama ([[Miniseries]]).

=== Brother's Death ===

Tragedy struck some two years prior to the renewed Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies when Zak Adama, recently graduated from flight school, was killed on a routine Viper mission. At the time, the cause of the accident was put down to pilot error. However, Lee Adama chose to blame the mishap on his father, whom he believed had pushed Zak into applying for military service and for applying for flight school ([[Miniseries]]).

Following Zak's death, Lee Adama became estranged from his father, seeking to build his career well away from any influence exerted by either William Adama or the legendary [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]'', his father's command. While he was successful in this - gaining promotion to Captain through his own abilities, the decision nevertheless placed a heavy strain on his friendship with Kara Thrace, as she applied for pilot duty aboard ''Galactica''.

Adama spends much time on Caprica and becomes engaged to a woman named [[Gianne]]. She tells him she is pregnant with their child, causing him to run from her due to his own family issues. Before he can speak with her again he is assigned to take part in the decommissioning ceremony aboard ''Galactica''. ([[Black Market]])

Adama is reunited with both his father and Kara Thrace when it was decided ''Galactica'' should be decommissioned and handed over to civil authorities as a living museum and educational center of the [[Cylon War]]. As a part of the final ceremonies marking ''Galactica's'' retirement, Lee Adama is ordered to participate in a final Viper flyby to salute both the ship and her commanding officer - an assignment he undertakes grudgingly, doing little to hide his true feelings from the moment he arrives on the battlestar ([[Miniseries]]). Matters are not helped when he discovers he will fly not in his own Mark VII Viper, but in the newly-restored Mark II Viper his father had flown during the Cylon War ([[Miniseries]]).

Things worsen after the PR official aboard ''Galactica'', [[Aaron Doral]], sees Captain Adama's presence on ''Galactica'' as a major PR opportunity and has Adama and his father pose for pictures together. Immediately following this, Adama confronts his father over Zak's death, during which he vents two years' worth of anger, clearly expressing his belief that William Adama was responsible for the loss of his brother.

=== Surprise [[Cylon Attack]] ===

Following the decommissioning ceremony, Lee Adama departs ''Galactica'', acting as a unofficial escort for ''[[Colonial Heavy 798]]'', the official transport for Secretary of Education [[Laura Roslin]], who represented President [[Richard Adar|Adar]] at the ceremony. Mid-way through their return to [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], Adama and the crew of ''Colonial Heavy 798'' hear of the Cylon attacks on the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]], and soon find themselves under direct attack. While Adama is able to thwart the missile attack, his father's old Viper is disabled and is brought aboard ''Colonial Heavy 798''. Adama becomes one of Laura Roslin's unofficial advisors, aiding her in her self-appointed rescue mission. Adama's annoyance of his father's old Viper comes back to haunt him when [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]], returning from her unexpected rescue mission on Caprica and disastrous attack on two [[Cylon Raider]]s, notes to him that other Vipers and other modern Colonial spacecraft like his Mark VII were [[Command Navigation Program|easily destroyed]] by Cylon attacks.

Following his disobedience of a direct order from his father , Adama again saves ''Colonial Heavy 798'' from a nuclear missile attack with a failed experiment he toyed with in [[War College]], using ''Galactica's'' [[EMP]] coils that were placed on the ship for return to Caprica and the Colonial Fleet - while simultaneously making it look like the ship had been destroyed. He supports Roslin in her rescue efforts. Adama persuades Roslin to lead the [[FTL]]-capable ships to follow ''Galactica'' to the [[Ragnar Anchorage]].

As the ranking pilot aboard ''Galactica'', and despite his relative inexperience, Adama finds himself promoted to the position of CAG by Colonel [[Saul Tigh]].

Apollo leads a Viper squadron in keeping [[Cylon Raider]]s at bay while the civilian [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] Jumps away from Ragnar Anchorage. His ship is badly damaged midway in the battle and Adama would have been killed by a missile were it not for the lightning-fast and highly-accurate shooting of Starbuck. Starbuck's highly unconventional flying force-fits her fighter and Adama's now-powerless Viper nose-to-nose and flies him back to the battlestar seconds before the port [[flight pod]] closes and ''Galactica'' Jumps away.

The attacks presumably kill Lee's fiancé [[Gianne]] and their unborn child before Lee can speak to her again. This drives him into depression leading him to at an unknown time start seeing a prostitute named [[Shevon]] ([[Black Market]]).

=== Special Advisor ===
[[image:Water_Apollo_Roslin.jpg|thumb|left|300px|[[Lee Adama|Adama]] and President Roslin shake hands after appointment as military advisor in "[[Water]]". (c) Universal)]]
Lee Adama finds himself attached to Roslin as a "special advisor" to further help her understand military matters. This appointment does not sit well with his father ([[Bastille Day]]).

When tensions rise during a hostage crisis with prisoners aboard the ''[[Astral Queen]]'', Adama resolves the situation with only one life lost through an arrangement reached between Adama and the leader of the convicts, [[Tom Zarek]]. While the solution is sensible, it is not to the liking of either Commander Adama or President Roslin.

In the weeks following the Cylon attack, Adama finds time to re-evaluate his relationship with his father - due in no small part to Starbuck's admission of her involvement in Zak's acceptance as a fighter pilot ([[Miniseries]]) and his subsequent death. Father and son grow somewhat closer - even standing shoulder-to-shoulder when Starbuck is MIA ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]). Even so, Adama's former self-doubts and moodiness are not easily overcome and sometimes come back to haunt him when he is tasked to fill a role that others are unsure he can manage. As a Viper pilot, Adama is able to escape from Starbuck's shadow, proving himself capable in unconventional and skilled flying in the [[Battle for the Tylium Asteroid]] ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).

After the tylium asteroid mission, Adama matures enormously, emerging from his shell as a somewhat disillusioned officer and becomes a practical leader who now comfortably straddles his responsibilities as [[CAG]] of ''Galactica'' with his duties as advisor to Roslin. With few issues with either Roslin or his father, Adama demonstrates his maturity particularly well in his handling of security arrangements for the initial meeting of Roslin's [[Quorum of Twelve]] aboard the luxury liner ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' ([[Colonial Day]]).

=== The Inner Conflicts at Kobol ===

Unfortunately, Adama's beliefs in the need for democratic representation and civil government brings him in direct conflict with orders given him by Commander Adama. During the arrest of Laura Roslin following her [[Arrow of Apollo|interference with military operations]], Captain Adama draws his gun on [[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]] in a direct act of mutiny, protesting his father's removal of Roslin from office. Arrested together with Roslin, Adama watches helplessly in [[CIC]] as [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Lieutenant Valerii]] shoots his father at point blank range, seriously wounding him ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]).

Adama is temporarily furloughed by Colonel Tigh so that he can continue his CAG responsibilities, For a time, Commander Adama's initiative lives on through his son. Young Adama leads a fight with Cylons to buy time for ''Galactica'' to find its proper bearings to the civilian Fleet ([[Scattered]]), He leads a team of [[Marines]] to stop [[Cylon Centurion]]s from reaching [[Aft Damage Control]], saving the ship ([[Valley of Darkness]]). After that, Adama continues his initiative and leads a [[SAR]] mission with two [[Raptors]] to retrieve stranded Colonials on the surface of Kobol ([[Fragged]]).

Adama's desire to let democracy work without overt military action comes to a head once more as he plots with a handful of others to free Roslin and smuggle her away from ''Galactica'' ([[The Farm]]). Before he leaves, he apologizes to his unconscious Commander Adama at his bedside for what he is about to do: Leave with Roslin and a [[Laura Roslin faction|faction]] of ships to search for data on Earth on Kobol. Commander Adama begins to awaken just as Adama leaves his side.

On the ''[[Astral Queen]]'', Adama is so happy to see Kara Thrace returned safely from Caprica with the Arrow of Apollo that he hugs and also impulsively kisses her, pleasantly surprising Thrace ([[Home, Part I]]). Moments later, as the Caprica copy of Sharon Valerii entered, Adama instantly grabs the known [[Cylon agent]] in anger and would have killed her if Helo and Roslin did not intervene.
[[image:Home_pt1-Apollo_Starbuck.jpg|thumb|[[Lee Adama|Adama]] and Kara Thrace speak aboard the ''Astral Queen'' in "Home, Part I". (c) Universal)]]
Later, with their military protocols and attitudes temporarily relaxed, Adama playfully teases the brooding Kara Thrace by stealing a [[pyramid (RDM)|pyramid]] ball she took as a keepsake from her time with [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] on Caprica. He returns the ball after sensing her depressed mood and tells her that he would be happy to listen to what was on her mind. In the same conversation, he lets it slip out that he loves Thrace. Amused, Thrace cheers up a bit and teases Adama, telling him that there are no take-backs on what he said.

Adama and Thrace join President Roslin and her other supporters on their quest to find the [[Tomb of Athena]] on Kobol. When Cylon Centurions ambush the group along an ancient trail, Adama and Thrace work well together in the fight, complementing each other for their fine shooting. During the incident, Adama chases what appeared to be an escaping Valerii, with Thrace calling Adama back in vain. Valerii takes a grenade launcher and aims it in the direction of Adama, but Valerii actually uses the weapon to destroy the last Centurion instead before dropping the weapon to a very surprised Adama.

Adama's reunion with his recovered father on Kobol further mends the wounds between them, both politically and personally. Like Captain Adama had done on the ''Queen'', his father reacts violently to the existence of a another copy of Valerii, leaving Captain Adama in the awkward position of defending her from his father.

In the virtual planetarium created by the Tomb of Athena, Adama is the party member that completes the mystery of interpreting how to use the constellations as viewed from Earth to make a flight path. He spots the [[Wikipedia:Lagoon Nebula|Lagoon Nebula]] in the sky where the Scorpius constellation resided, a celestial body known to the Colonials which gives them a reference point to navigate to Earth. His father confirms Adama's observation, noting that the nebula is far away from their current location at Kobol.

After the Fleet's reunification, Lee Adama is fully restored to flight status and his position as the Commander, Air Group ([[Final Cut]]). Apollo doubts that [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] could successfully complete a prototype fighter later known as the [[Blackbird]], but in the end aids in its first test flight with Starbuck. Around this time, Adama begins to develop a peculiar attraction to Petty Officer 2nd Class [[Anastasia Dualla]] ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).

===Reassignment===
Apollo is on [[CAP]] when the [[Mercury class battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' reunites with ''Galactica'': he was one of the first to see it up close. Soon afterwards, friction develops between Adama and the CAG of ''Pegasus'', Captain [[Cole Taylor|Cole "Stinger" Taylor]]. Taylor feels that Adama's pilots were undisciplined and implies that Adama has his position through his father's influence. Taylor recommends that Adama have his pilots focus on keeping a "killcount" of Raiders to encourage competition between his pilots, while Adama stresses that his first priority is to make sure that all of his pilots merely survive another day.

To Adama's shock, Admiral [[Helena Cain]] re-assigns him and Lt. Thrace to ''Pegasus'', under Taylor's command. Cain believes that having Commander Adama's son in the role of CAG was a mistake that had clouded Commander Adama's judgment, as young Adama had been insubordinate and even [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II|mutinous]] in the past. During a briefing on an upcoming scouting mission against the Cylon fleet following them, Thrace crassly points out that it would never work. She is grounded while Taylor orders Adama to perform the humiliating task of co-piloting a Raptor. However, after the briefing, Adama surreptitiously gives Starbuck a surveillance package and tells her to take the Blackbird to carry out a recon mission on her own. When Commander Adama and Admiral Cain turn on each other, Apollo is away in Taylor's Raptor on his recon mission ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]).

As the two battlestar commanders begin sparring with Vipers, ''Pegasus'' orders Taylor to relieve Adama of duty. Taylor pulls his sidearm and takes away Adama's. Now weaponless and with nothing more to do than to ride along, Adama asks permission to head to the rear of the Raptor. While Taylor is busy, Adama secretly sends an encoded [[wireless]] message to Starbuck on her whereabouts with the Blackbird and the secret stealth mission he tasked her with. It happened that Starbuck arrives back in the Fleet's space to see the furious and dangerous game of Viper-tag and replies to Adama, asking what was going on. Starbuck's return on the outer fringes of [[DRADIS]] activate proximity alarms on both ''Pegasus'' and ''Galactica'', whose Vipers unite as a team to intercept what they think is a [[Raider]]. Starbuck manages to identify herself before things get out of hand.

Kara Thrace downloads her reconnaissance photos of what would be later known as the [[Resurrection Ship]] to a very surprised Admiral Cain, who promotes Thrace to Captain as well as assigning her as ''Pegasus'' [[CAG]], replacing Cole Taylor. Cain feels that persecuting Adama for authorizing Thrace's mission would be odd since she was promoting Thrace, so she decides to take Adama off flight status. In light of Thrace's new task of planning an attack on the Resurrection Ship, Thrace asks for and successfully returns Adama to flight status. He remains, however, demoted to Lieutenant ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]).

Adama visits [[Karl Agathon]] and [[Galen Tyrol]] in the ''Pegasus'' brig, asking the two of them with a smile, "So, just how many kinds of stupid are you?" He informs them that their scheduled execution is on hold until at least after the battle operation, and tells how Commander Adama "went to the mat" for both of them in trying to get them back, almost going into a shooting war with ''Pegasus''.

After the battlestar commanders and their teams are briefed by Thrace on her attack plan, Commander Adama requests Thrace to stay to talk more on the plan and dismisses his son, asking him cryptically to "stay focused, son." With young Adama gone, the elder Adama asks Thrace to kill Cain after the operation to prevent her from eventually having Commander Adama killed and, in turn, doom the Fleet to Cain's tyrannical commands. Commander Adama tells Thrace to take Lee Adama with her, to watch her back ([[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]).

=== Battle of the Resurrection Ship ===

With the recon photos from Starbucks mission in hand, Thrace plans an assault on the Resurrection Ship and the two [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]]s defending it. At the same time, Starbuck told Apollo that his father had ordered her to kill Cain after the battle, and for Apollo to watch her back. Outraged, Apollo confronted his father with this, who said that it wasn't something he wanted to do but that had to be done. However, Apollo was shocked when his father told him that assassinating Cain was President Roslin's idea. Apollo was in disbelief that as a society they had fallen to these levels. Thrace assigns Adama the specific task of disabling the Resurrection Ship's [[FTL]] drive by sneaking up on it in the Blackbird and destroying it with a precision missile strike. Apollo is successful in his mission and disables the Resurrection Ship, however, he is then hit by a floating piece of debris. Apollo is able to eject, but the Blackbird is destroyed. Alive, but not unscathed, Apollo floats in space watching the battle take place, able to faintly hear [[Dee]] calling for him over the wireless. A small hole in the leg on his flight suit allows most of his oxygen to escape into space. Drifting in and out of consciousness, he finds himself floating in a body of water, presumably on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] before the attack.

Adama is found shortly afterwards by a [[SAR]] [[Raptor]] and is brought back from the brink of death on board. However Apollo becomes despondent and distant from his friends and family after his near death experience. In the pilots locker room, Thrace tells Adama "Lets just be glad that we both came back alive, alright?" to which Adama responds "Thats just it, Kara, I didn't want to make it back alive." ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]])

=== The Black Market ===

Adama (who has had his captains rank restored) and Thrace apprehend Viper saboteur [[Asha Janik]] of the [[Demand Peace]] group which is trying to make peace with the Cylons. ([[Epiphanies]])

After President Roslin is saved from her cancer ([[Epiphanies]]) she begins trying to put down the Fleet's [[Black market (organization)|Black Market]]. New Pegasus commander [[Jack Fisk]] is soon murdered leading the elder Adama (now an Admiral) to assign his son to investigate. After seeing prostitute [[Shevon]] and her daughter [[Paya]] on ''[[Cloud 9]]'' Adama is asked by [[Anastasia Dualla]] where the relationship between the two of them was going. After he can't answer Dualla takes it to mean it is over. Adama rushes back to Shevon's quarters after hearing a call for help from her, and is ambushed by thugs. Their leader [[Phelan]] warns him against investigating further. Lee is knocked unconscious and upon awaking finds everyone gone except the corpse of Fisk's murderer.

With some help from [[Tom Zarek]] Adama finds the Black Markets main ship ''[[Prometheus]]'', abroad which Paya and other children are locked up. He confronts Phelan who tells him a Black Market is needed in the Fleet since no supplies will ever reach the people any other way. Shevon is dragged out to admit she works for Phelan as a prostitute. Adama shoots Phelan and tells his bodyguards the market will continue unless it keeps holding back essential medicines, killing, and using child prostitution.
Shevon refuses to see Adama anymore, stating to him she and Paya are just replacements for his lost fiancé [[Gianne]] and their unborn child. ([[Black Market]])

===Friendly Fire===
While on leave to [[Cloud 9]] with [[Anastasia Dualla]], a group of terrorists demanding they be allowed to kill [[Sharon Valerii]] held about a dozen people, including Dualla, Billy Keikeya, [[Ellen Tigh]] and Adama, hostage in a bar. Lee reacted quickly, sabotaging the bar's sensors so it appeared they were leaking atmosphere. The sabotage enabled Capt. Thrace to gather intelligence on the situation, but her cover was blown, and she was forced to lay down some fire to escape. One shot hit Adama in the chest. Dualla was able to care for Adama long enough for him to survive to Galactica's sickbay, and later sat at his bedside while he recovered. ([[Sacrifice]])

===A Worthy Command ===

Adama finds himself promoted to Major and assigned to battlestar [[Pegasus (RDM)|''Pegasus]]'' as the [[Executive officer]] for new commander [[Barry Garner]], a former officer in Engineering. Garner finds an instant dislike for Starbuck and soon orders her to be sent back to ''Galactica''. Meanwhile, a Raptor recon mission near a binary star system becomes a [[SAR]] as the two craft go missing. Against orders from Admiral Adama, Garner takes ''Pegasus'' in to search for the Raptors. His impulsive and unwise efforts result in a Cylon ambush of three basestars.

With the FTL drive damaged, he relegates command to Major Adama and heads below to help in FTL repairs. After a moment's hesitation (perhaps thinking what his father would do), Adama orders the forward guns to fire on the nearest basestar's central spire, critically damaging the basestar and forcing its retreat, while commanding the battlestar's fighters (led by Starbuck) to guard embattled areas damaged from nuclear pummeling. After Commander Garner successfully repairs a critical area and the FTL drive repaired, Major Adama retrieves the fighters and Jumps back to the Fleet and relative safety.

Admiral Adama debriefs his son, and congratulates him by promoting him to the rank of Commander and giving him command of battlestar ''Pegasus'' ([[The Captain's Hand]]).

Sometime later, Apollo wished Starbuck good luck in rescuing [[Anders]] and the rest of the [[Resistance]], despite his clear personal feeling towards her. ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]). After the two of them returned, Adama attempted to introduce himself politely, but was hampered by vast quantity of alcohol they had consumed.

[[Image:Fatlee6as.jpg|thumb|left|Lee Adama in command of ''Pegasus''.]]

Just over a year later, Apollo was the Commander of a half-capacity, nearly unneeded Battlestar orbiting [[New Caprica]]. He was in the process of deciding whether or not to give Kara antibiotics for Anders (now her very ill husband) when Dualla (now an officer on the [[CIC]]) spots a Cylon fleet jumping into the nebula. Adama and his father had a brief discussion over their course of action (with Lee arguing for jumping away and Bill against), before the Admiral ordered the Fleet, whose population now consisted less than ten thousand crew, to jump away, leaving New Caprica to the Cylons, for the time being. ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]])

== Notes ==

''Some of this information may not be [[canon]].''

*From [[Ronald D. Moore]]'s [[Wikipedia:blog|blog]], in response to a fan's question:

<blockquote>In my first draft of the [[Miniseries|mini]], Lee Adama had just been accepted into test pilot school on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] and was not currently assigned to any [[battlestar]]. Presumably, he had been posted to at least a couple of battlestar [[CAG|air groups]] in his career, as well as several ground assignments as well. This isn't [[canon]] yet, however, and I'm currently thinking of changing some elements of his specific backstory as I work on storylines for [[Season 2 (2005-06)|Season Two]]. Overall, I'd say Lee was striving (perhaps too hard) to blaze a different path for himself in the fleet from that of his [[William Adama|father]]. I don't think Lee ever saw himself as a battlestar commander and was looking for a different way to make his mark.</blockquote>
*According to Jamie Bamber, Adama's official character biography states that “Lee is never so happy as when he’s in his kitchen cooking.”

*The subtitles under Apollo's name in "[[Final Cut]]" list him as "CFR". In the podcast, RDM explained that this stood for Colonial Fleet Reserves; likely analogous to the U.S. Army Reserve, the U.S. Air Force Reserve and such of the United States military; and Apollo is in that because, as stated above, he wasn't sure what he was doing with his life and wasn't sure if he was going to pursue a full career in the Fleet.
* Jamie Bamber is the husband of actress Kerry Norton, who portrays [[Layne Ishay]], the paramedic from "[[Scattered]]".
* Bamber is actually a British citizen; he disguises his accent to play the role of Lee Adama.

Here is Sky One's summary of Lee Adama:

:''Lee was born and raised on the colony of Caprica, where his family were born. A headstrong, scrappy boy, he was forever getting into fights at school.''

:''His parents divorced when he was just eight and his younger brother Zak was raised by their mother. His father visited him when he could, but military life often took him away for long periods. Nevertheless, both boys grew up worshipping this distant figure.''

:''Lee always wanted to be a pilot; to follow in his father's footsteps and join the fleet. He studied hard at school, aced his entrance exams to the academy and graduated third in his class. But the boy's hero-worship eventually turned to resentment, and neither knew how to repair it.''

:''While Lee was at flight school, his younger brother was away at Viper Squadron and a plum assignment on Atlantia - flagship of the fleet. Lee tried to dissuade him, but Zak did not want to be the only Adama without wings on his uniform. Zak's application was turned down. As Commander Adama pulled a few strings to get his son in, Lee was furious.''

:''Two weeks later, Zak's plane went down while he was flying a routine solo mission and he was killed. Lee spent the next two years focusing on his career, having no personal life and working to become the perfect fighter pilot.''

As this information does not come from the official Scifi.com site, it's authenticity is in question. Further, it is contradicted by on screen evidence: Zak was killed in an accident at flight school, and was never on a battlestar. Further, Lee did not work hard (at least after Zak's death) to be the best Viper pilot or to improve his career; multiple cast interviews and RDM podcasts state that he was despondent, didn't know what to do with his life, and was considering leaving the service. Further, in "[[Final Cut]]" we see that he is a member of the Colonial Fleet Reserves, not regular fleet, indicating that he wasn't particularly concerned with a lifelong career.

{{start box}}
{{succession box|before=[[Jackson Spencer|Jackson "Ripper" Spencer]]|title=Commander, Air Group of the [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''|after=[[George Birch|George "Catman" Birch]]}}
{{succession box|before=[[George Birch|George "Catman" Birch]]|title=Commander, Air Group of the [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''|after=[[Kara Thrace|Kara "Starbuck" Thrace]]}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown, eventually [[Jack Fisk]])''|title=Executive Officer of the [[Mercury class battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''|after=''(unknown, eventually [[Anastasia Dualla]])}}
{{succession box|before=[[Barry Garner]]|title=Commanding Officer of the [[Mercury class battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''|after=Incumbent}}
{{end box}}

== See Also ==

* [[Apollo (TOS)]]
* [[Richard Hatch]]
* [[Tom Zarek]]

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Adama, Lee]]
[[Category:Characters|Adama, Lee]]
[[Category:RDM|Adama, Lee]]
[[Category:People from Caprica|Adama, Lee]]

Leland Adama

2006-04-10T23:18:35Z

Mazzy: Lee was never assigned to galactica, he was ordered to take part in the ceremony - fixed

:''The article discusses the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]] character with the pilot callsign of "Apollo." For information on his [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]] counterpart, see [[Apollo (TOS)]].''

{{Character Data|
|photo= [[Image:Lee Adama promo.jpg|200px]]
|age=
|colony= [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]]
|birthname= Lee Adama
|callsign= Apollo
|death=
|parents= [[Caroline Adama]] (mother, likely deceased), [[William Adama]] (father)
|siblings= [[Zak Adama]] (deceased)
|children=1 unborn child with Gianne (presumed deceased)
|marital status= Dating [[Anastasia Dualla]]
|role= Commander, battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''
|rank=Commander
|cylon=
|actor=[[Jamie Bamber]]
|name=
}}

== Biographical Notes ==

=== Background ===

'''Lee "Apollo" Adama''' is the eldest son of [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]] and [[William Adama]]. Together with his younger brother, Zak, he was raised largely by his mother on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], following his parents' divorce when he was eight.

Despite his father's estrangement from the family, Adama nevertheless inherited his passion for flying - a passion that saw him enrolling in the Colonial military reserves after graduating from college. Following his basic training, he graduated from the military academy third in his class and immediately applied for flight school.

Not to be outdone by his elder brother, Zak Adama applied for military service, a move that eventually brought tragedy to the Adama household.

Accepted into flight school, Adama proved himself a gifted and natural pilot, hampered only by his tendency to over-intellectualise things - a result of his upbringing with his mother, who encouraged him to read widely, and think freely (encouragement that lead him to read banned texts by the renegade [[Tom Zarek]] while at college ([[Bastille Day]])).

Graduating from flight school, Adama was commissioned as a Lieutenant in the Colonial Reserve, flying the [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]] Mark VII. During this time, he was also introduced to [[Kara Thrace|Kara "Starbuck" Thrace]], a training instructor at flight school, who was also involved with Zak Adama. While Adama was still at flight school, the three frequently spent time together, and Adama and Thrace developed a friendship through Zak Adama ([[Miniseries]]).

=== Brother's Death ===

Tragedy struck some two years prior to the renewed Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies when Zak Adama, recently graduated from flight school, was killed on a routine Viper mission. At the time, the cause of the accident was put down to pilot error. However, Lee Adama chose to blame the mishap on his father, whom he believed had pushed Zak into applying for military service and for applying for flight school ([[Miniseries]]).

Following Zak's death, Lee Adama became estranged from his father, seeking to build his career well away from any influence exerted by either William Adama or the legendary [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]'', his father's command. While he was successful in this - gaining promotion to Captain through his own abilities, the decision nevertheless placed a heavy strain on his friendship with Kara Thrace, as she applied for pilot duty aboard ''Galactica''.

Adama spends much time on Caprica and becomes engaged to a woman named [[Gianne]]. She tells him she is pregnant with their child, causing him to run from her due to his own family issues. Before he can speak with her again he is assigned to take part in the decommisioning ceremony aboard ''Galactica''. ([[Black Market]])

Adama is reunited with both his father and Kara Thrace when it was decided ''Galactica'' should be decommissioned and handed over to civil authorities as a living museum and educational center of the [[Cylon War]]. As a part of the final ceremonies marking ''Galactica's'' retirement, Lee Adama is ordered to participate in a final Viper flyby to salute both the ship and her commanding officer - an assignment he undertakes grudgingly, doing little to hide his true feelings from the moment he arrives on the battlestar ([[Miniseries]]). Matters are not helped when he discovers he will fly not in his own Mark VII Viper, but in the newly-restored Mark II Viper his father had flown during the Cylon War ([[Miniseries]]).

Things worsen after the PR official aboard ''Galactica'', [[Aaron Doral]], sees Captain Adama's presence on ''Galactica'' as a major PR opportunity and has Adama and his father pose for pictures together. Immediately following this, Adama confronts his father over Zak's death, during which he vents two years' worth of anger, clearly expressing his belief that William Adama was responsible for the loss of his brother.

=== Surprise [[Cylon Attack]] ===

Following the decommissioning ceremony, Lee Adama departs ''Galactica'', acting as a unofficial escort for ''[[Colonial Heavy 798]]'', the official transport for Secretary of Education [[Laura Roslin]], who represented President [[Richard Adar|Adar]] at the ceremony. Mid-way through their return to [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], Adama and the crew of ''Colonial Heavy 798'' hear of the Cylon attacks on the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]], and soon find themselves under direct attack. While Adama is able to thwart the missile attack, his father's old Viper is disabled and is brought aboard ''Colonial Heavy 798''. Adama becomes one of Laura Roslin's unofficial advisors, aiding her in her self-appointed rescue mission. Adama's annoyance of his father's old Viper comes back to haunt him when [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]], returning from her unexpected rescue mission on Caprica and disastrous attack on two [[Cylon Raider]]s, notes to him that other Vipers and other modern Colonial spacecraft like his Mark VII were [[Command Navigation Program|easily destroyed]] by Cylon attacks.

Following his disobedience of a direct order from his father , Adama again saves ''Colonial Heavy 798'' from a nuclear missile attack with a failed experiment he toyed with in [[War College]], using ''Galactica's'' [[EMP]] coils that were placed on the ship for return to Caprica and the Colonial Fleet - while simultaneously making it look like the ship had been destroyed. He supports Roslin in her rescue efforts. Adama persuades Roslin to lead the [[FTL]]-capable ships to follow ''Galactica'' to the [[Ragnar Anchorage]].

As the ranking pilot aboard ''Galactica'', and despite his relative inexperience, Adama finds himself promoted to the position of CAG by Colonel [[Saul Tigh]].

Apollo leads a Viper squadron in keeping [[Cylon Raider]]s at bay while the civilian [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] Jumps away from Ragnar Anchorage. His ship is badly damaged midway in the battle and Adama would have been killed by a missile were it not for the lightning-fast and highly-accurate shooting of Starbuck. Starbuck's highly unconventional flying force-fits her fighter and Adama's now-powerless Viper nose-to-nose and flies him back to the battlestar seconds before the port [[flight pod]] closes and ''Galactica'' Jumps away.

The attacks presumably kill Lee's fiancé [[Gianne]] and their unborn child before Lee can speak to her again. This drives him into depression leading him to at an unknown time start seeing a prostitute named [[Shevon]] ([[Black Market]]).

=== Special Advisor ===
[[image:Water_Apollo_Roslin.jpg|thumb|left|300px|[[Lee Adama|Adama]] and President Roslin shake hands after appointment as military advisor in "[[Water]]". (c) Universal)]]
Lee Adama finds himself attached to Roslin as a "special advisor" to further help her understand military matters. This appointment does not sit well with his father ([[Bastille Day]]).

When tensions rise during a hostage crisis with prisoners aboard the ''[[Astral Queen]]'', Adama resolves the situation with only one life lost through an arrangement reached between Adama and the leader of the convicts, [[Tom Zarek]]. While the solution is sensible, it is not to the liking of either Commander Adama or President Roslin.

In the weeks following the Cylon attack, Adama finds time to re-evaluate his relationship with his father - due in no small part to Starbuck's admission of her involvement in Zak's acceptance as a fighter pilot ([[Miniseries]]) and his subsequent death. Father and son grow somewhat closer - even standing shoulder-to-shoulder when Starbuck is MIA ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]). Even so, Adama's former self-doubts and moodiness are not easily overcome and sometimes come back to haunt him when he is tasked to fill a role that others are unsure he can manage. As a Viper pilot, Adama is able to escape from Starbuck's shadow, proving himself capable in unconventional and skilled flying in the [[Battle for the Tylium Asteroid]] ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).

After the tylium asteroid mission, Adama matures enormously, emerging from his shell as a somewhat disillusioned officer and becomes a practical leader who now comfortably straddles his responsibilities as [[CAG]] of ''Galactica'' with his duties as advisor to Roslin. With few issues with either Roslin or his father, Adama demonstrates his maturity particularly well in his handling of security arrangements for the initial meeting of Roslin's [[Quorum of Twelve]] aboard the luxury liner ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' ([[Colonial Day]]).

=== The Inner Conflicts at Kobol ===

Unfortunately, Adama's beliefs in the need for democratic representation and civil government brings him in direct conflict with orders given him by Commander Adama. During the arrest of Laura Roslin following her [[Arrow of Apollo|interference with military operations]], Captain Adama draws his gun on [[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]] in a direct act of mutiny, protesting his father's removal of Roslin from office. Arrested together with Roslin, Adama watches helplessly in [[CIC]] as [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Lieutenant Valerii]] shoots his father at point blank range, seriously wounding him ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]).

Adama is temporarily furloughed by Colonel Tigh so that he can continue his CAG responsibilities, For a time, Commander Adama's initiative lives on through his son. Young Adama leads a fight with Cylons to buy time for ''Galactica'' to find its proper bearings to the civilian Fleet ([[Scattered]]), He leads a team of [[Marines]] to stop [[Cylon Centurion]]s from reaching [[Aft Damage Control]], saving the ship ([[Valley of Darkness]]). After that, Adama continues his initiative and leads a [[SAR]] mission with two [[Raptors]] to retrieve stranded Colonials on the surface of Kobol ([[Fragged]]).

Adama's desire to let democracy work without overt military action comes to a head once more as he plots with a handful of others to free Roslin and smuggle her away from ''Galactica'' ([[The Farm]]). Before he leaves, he apologizes to his unconscious Commander Adama at his bedside for what he is about to do: Leave with Roslin and a [[Laura Roslin faction|faction]] of ships to search for data on Earth on Kobol. Commander Adama begins to awaken just as Adama leaves his side.

On the ''[[Astral Queen]]'', Adama is so happy to see Kara Thrace returned safely from Caprica with the Arrow of Apollo that he hugs and also impulsively kisses her, pleasantly surprising Thrace ([[Home, Part I]]). Moments later, as the Caprica copy of Sharon Valerii entered, Adama instantly grabs the known [[Cylon agent]] in anger and would have killed her if Helo and Roslin did not intervene.
[[image:Home_pt1-Apollo_Starbuck.jpg|thumb|[[Lee Adama|Adama]] and Kara Thrace speak aboard the ''Astral Queen'' in "Home, Part I". (c) Universal)]]
Later, with their military protocols and attitudes temporarily relaxed, Adama playfully teases the brooding Kara Thrace by stealing a [[pyramid (RDM)|pyramid]] ball she took as a keepsake from her time with [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] on Caprica. He returns the ball after sensing her depressed mood and tells her that he would be happy to listen to what was on her mind. In the same conversation, he lets it slip out that he loves Thrace. Amused, Thrace cheers up a bit and teases Adama, telling him that there are no take-backs on what he said.

Adama and Thrace join President Roslin and her other supporters on their quest to find the [[Tomb of Athena]] on Kobol. When Cylon Centurions ambush the group along an ancient trail, Adama and Thrace work well together in the fight, complementing each other for their fine shooting. During the incident, Adama chases what appeared to be an escaping Valerii, with Thrace calling Adama back in vain. Valerii takes a grenade launcher and aims it in the direction of Adama, but Valerii actually uses the weapon to destroy the last Centurion instead before dropping the weapon to a very surprised Adama.

Adama's reunion with his recovered father on Kobol further mends the wounds between them, both politically and personally. Like Captain Adama had done on the ''Queen'', his father reacts violently to the existence of a another copy of Valerii, leaving Captain Adama in the awkward position of defending her from his father.

In the virtual planetarium created by the Tomb of Athena, Adama is the party member that completes the mystery of interpreting how to use the constellations as viewed from Earth to make a flight path. He spots the [[Wikipedia:Lagoon Nebula|Lagoon Nebula]] in the sky where the Scorpius constellation resided, a celestial body known to the Colonials which gives them a reference point to navigate to Earth. His father confirms Adama's observation, noting that the nebula is far away from their current location at Kobol.

After the Fleet's reunification, Lee Adama is fully restored to flight status and his position as the Commander, Air Group ([[Final Cut]]). Apollo doubts that [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] could successfully complete a prototype fighter later known as the [[Blackbird]], but in the end aids in its first test flight with Starbuck. Around this time, Adama begins to develop a peculiar attraction to Petty Officer 2nd Class [[Anastasia Dualla]] ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).

===Reassignment===
Apollo is on [[CAP]] when the [[Mercury class battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' reunites with ''Galactica'': he was one of the first to see it up close. Soon afterwards, friction develops between Adama and the CAG of ''Pegasus'', Captain [[Cole Taylor|Cole "Stinger" Taylor]]. Taylor feels that Adama's pilots were undisciplined and implies that Adama has his position through his father's influence. Taylor recommends that Adama have his pilots focus on keeping a "killcount" of Raiders to encourage competition between his pilots, while Adama stresses that his first priority is to make sure that all of his pilots merely survive another day.

To Adama's shock, Admiral [[Helena Cain]] re-assigns him and Lt. Thrace to ''Pegasus'', under Taylor's command. Cain believes that having Commander Adama's son in the role of CAG was a mistake that had clouded Commander Adama's judgment, as young Adama had been insubordinate and even [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II|mutinous]] in the past. During a briefing on an upcoming scouting mission against the Cylon fleet following them, Thrace crassly points out that it would never work. She is grounded while Taylor orders Adama to perform the humiliating task of co-piloting a Raptor. However, after the briefing, Adama surreptitiously gives Starbuck a surveillance package and tells her to take the Blackbird to carry out a recon mission on her own. When Commander Adama and Admiral Cain turn on each other, Apollo is away in Taylor's Raptor on his recon mission ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]).

As the two battlestar commanders begin sparring with Vipers, ''Pegasus'' orders Taylor to relieve Adama of duty. Taylor pulls his sidearm and takes away Adama's. Now weaponless and with nothing more to do than to ride along, Adama asks permission to head to the rear of the Raptor. While Taylor is busy, Adama secretly sends an encoded [[wireless]] message to Starbuck on her whereabouts with the Blackbird and the secret stealth mission he tasked her with. It happened that Starbuck arrives back in the Fleet's space to see the furious and dangerous game of Viper-tag and replies to Adama, asking what was going on. Starbuck's return on the outer fringes of [[DRADIS]] activate proximity alarms on both ''Pegasus'' and ''Galactica'', whose Vipers unite as a team to intercept what they think is a [[Raider]]. Starbuck manages to identify herself before things get out of hand.

Kara Thrace downloads her reconnaissance photos of what would be later known as the [[Resurrection Ship]] to a very surprised Admiral Cain, who promotes Thrace to Captain as well as assigning her as ''Pegasus'' [[CAG]], replacing Cole Taylor. Cain feels that persecuting Adama for authorizing Thrace's mission would be odd since she was promoting Thrace, so she decides to take Adama off flight status. In light of Thrace's new task of planning an attack on the Resurrection Ship, Thrace asks for and successfully returns Adama to flight status. He remains, however, demoted to Lieutenant ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]).

Adama visits [[Karl Agathon]] and [[Galen Tyrol]] in the ''Pegasus'' brig, asking the two of them with a smile, "So, just how many kinds of stupid are you?" He informs them that their scheduled execution is on hold until at least after the battle operation, and tells how Commander Adama "went to the mat" for both of them in trying to get them back, almost going into a shooting war with ''Pegasus''.

After the battlestar commanders and their teams are briefed by Thrace on her attack plan, Commander Adama requests Thrace to stay to talk more on the plan and dismisses his son, asking him cryptically to "stay focused, son." With young Adama gone, the elder Adama asks Thrace to kill Cain after the operation to prevent her from eventually having Commander Adama killed and, in turn, doom the Fleet to Cain's tyrannical commands. Commander Adama tells Thrace to take Lee Adama with her, to watch her back ([[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]).

=== Battle of the Resurrection Ship ===

With the recon photos from Starbucks mission in hand, Thrace plans an assault on the Resurrection Ship and the two [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]]s defending it. At the same time, Starbuck told Apollo that his father had ordered her to kill Cain after the battle, and for Apollo to watch her back. Outraged, Apollo confronted his father with this, who said that it wasn't something he wanted to do but that had to be done. However, Apollo was shocked when his father told him that assassinating Cain was President Roslin's idea. Apollo was in disbelief that as a society they had fallen to these levels. Thrace assigns Adama the specific task of disabling the Resurrection Ship's [[FTL]] drive by sneaking up on it in the Blackbird and destroying it with a precision missile strike. Apollo is successful in his mission and disables the Resurrection Ship, however, he is then hit by a floating piece of debris. Apollo is able to eject, but the Blackbird is destroyed. Alive, but not unscathed, Apollo floats in space watching the battle take place, able to faintly hear [[Dee]] calling for him over the wireless. A small hole in the leg on his flight suit allows most of his oxygen to escape into space. Drifting in and out of consciousness, he finds himself floating in a body of water, presumably on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] before the attack.

Adama is found shortly afterwards by a [[SAR]] [[Raptor]] and is brought back from the brink of death on board. However Apollo becomes despondent and distant from his friends and family after his near death experience. In the pilots locker room, Thrace tells Adama "Lets just be glad that we both came back alive, alright?" to which Adama responds "Thats just it, Kara, I didn't want to make it back alive." ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]])

=== The Black Market ===

Adama (who has had his captains rank restored) and Thrace apprehend Viper saboteur [[Asha Janik]] of the [[Demand Peace]] group which is trying to make peace with the Cylons. ([[Epiphanies]])

After President Roslin is saved from her cancer ([[Epiphanies]]) she begins trying to put down the Fleet's [[Black market (organization)|Black Market]]. New Pegasus commander [[Jack Fisk]] is soon murdered leading the elder Adama (now an Admiral) to assign his son to investigate. After seeing prostitute [[Shevon]] and her daughter [[Paya]] on ''[[Cloud 9]]'' Adama is asked by [[Anastasia Dualla]] where the relationship between the two of them was going. After he can't answer Dualla takes it to mean it is over. Adama rushes back to Shevon's quarters after hearing a call for help from her, and is ambushed by thugs. Their leader [[Phelan]] warns him against investigating further. Lee is knocked unconscious and upon awaking finds everyone gone except the corpse of Fisk's murderer.

With some help from [[Tom Zarek]] Adama finds the Black Markets main ship ''[[Prometheus]]'', abroad which Paya and other children are locked up. He confronts Phelan who tells him a Black Market is needed in the Fleet since no supplies will ever reach the people any other way. Shevon is dragged out to admit she works for Phelan as a prostitute. Adama shoots Phelan and tells his bodyguards the market will continue unless it keeps holding back essential medicines, killing, and using child prostitution.
Shevon refuses to see Adama anymore, stating to him she and Paya are just replacements for his lost fiancé [[Gianne]] and their unborn child. ([[Black Market]])

===Friendly Fire===
While on leave to [[Cloud 9]] with [[Anastasia Dualla]], a group of terrorists demanding they be allowed to kill [[Sharon Valerii]] held about a dozen people, including Dualla, Billy Keikeya, [[Ellen Tigh]] and Adama, hostage in a bar. Lee reacted quickly, sabotaging the bar's sensors so it appeared they were leaking atmosphere. The sabotage enabled Capt. Thrace to gather intelligence on the situation, but her cover was blown, and she was forced to lay down some fire to escape. One shot hit Adama in the chest. Dualla was able to care for Adama long enough for him to survive to Galactica's sickbay, and later sat at his bedside while he recovered. ([[Sacrifice]])

===A Worthy Command ===

Adama finds himself promoted to Major and assigned to battlestar [[Pegasus (RDM)|''Pegasus]]'' as the [[Executive officer]] for new commander [[Barry Garner]], a former officer in Engineering. Garner finds an instant dislike for Starbuck and soon orders her to be sent back to ''Galactica''. Meanwhile, a Raptor recon mission near a binary star system becomes a [[SAR]] as the two craft go missing. Against orders from Admiral Adama, Garner takes ''Pegasus'' in to search for the Raptors. His impulsive and unwise efforts result in a Cylon ambush of three basestars.

With the FTL drive damaged, he relegates command to Major Adama and heads below to help in FTL repairs. After a moment's hesitation (perhaps thinking what his father would do), Adama orders the forward guns to fire on the nearest basestar's central spire, critically damaging the basestar and forcing its retreat, while commanding the battlestar's fighters (led by Starbuck) to guard embattled areas damaged from nuclear pummeling. After Commander Garner successfully repairs a critical area and the FTL drive repaired, Major Adama retrieves the fighters and Jumps back to the Fleet and relative safety.

Admiral Adama debriefs his son, and congratulates him by promoting him to the rank of Commander and giving him command of battlestar ''Pegasus'' ([[The Captain's Hand]]).

Sometime later, Apollo wished Starbuck good luck in rescuing [[Anders]] and the rest of the [[Resistance]], despite his clear personal feeling towards her. ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]). After the two of them returned, Adama attempted to introduce himself politely, but was hampered by vast quantity of alcohol they had consumed.

[[Image:Fatlee6as.jpg|thumb|left|Lee Adama in command of ''Pegasus''.]]

Just over a year later, Apollo was the Commander of a half-capacity, nearly unneeded Battlestar orbiting [[New Caprica]]. He was in the process of deciding whether or not to give Kara antibiotics for Anders (now her very ill husband) when Dualla (now an officer on the [[CIC]]) spots a Cylon fleet jumping into the nebula. Adama and his father had a brief discussion over their course of action (with Lee arguing for jumping away and Bill against), before the Admiral ordered the Fleet, whose population now consisted less than ten thousand crew, to jump away, leaving New Caprica to the Cylons, for the time being. ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]])

== Notes ==

''Some of this information may not be [[canon]].''

*From [[Ronald D. Moore]]'s [[Wikipedia:blog|blog]], in response to a fan's question:

<blockquote>In my first draft of the [[Miniseries|mini]], Lee Adama had just been accepted into test pilot school on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] and was not currently assigned to any [[battlestar]]. Presumably, he had been posted to at least a couple of battlestar [[CAG|air groups]] in his career, as well as several ground assignments as well. This isn't [[canon]] yet, however, and I'm currently thinking of changing some elements of his specific backstory as I work on storylines for [[Season 2 (2005-06)|Season Two]]. Overall, I'd say Lee was striving (perhaps too hard) to blaze a different path for himself in the fleet from that of his [[William Adama|father]]. I don't think Lee ever saw himself as a battlestar commander and was looking for a different way to make his mark.</blockquote>
*According to Jamie Bamber, Adama's official character biography states that “Lee is never so happy as when he’s in his kitchen cooking.”

*The subtitles under Apollo's name in "[[Final Cut]]" list him as "CFR". In the podcast, RDM explained that this stood for Colonial Fleet Reserves; likely analogous to the U.S. Army Reserve, the U.S. Air Force Reserve and such of the United States military; and Apollo is in that because, as stated above, he wasn't sure what he was doing with his life and wasn't sure if he was going to pursue a full career in the Fleet.
* Jamie Bamber is the husband of actress Kerry Norton, who portrays [[Layne Ishay]], the paramedic from "[[Scattered]]".
* Bamber is actually a British citizen; he disguises his accent to play the role of Lee Adama.

Here is Sky One's summary of Lee Adama:

:''Lee was born and raised on the colony of Caprica, where his family were born. A headstrong, scrappy boy, he was forever getting into fights at school.''

:''His parents divorced when he was just eight and his younger brother Zak was raised by their mother. His father visited him when he could, but military life often took him away for long periods. Nevertheless, both boys grew up worshipping this distant figure.''

:''Lee always wanted to be a pilot; to follow in his father's footsteps and join the fleet. He studied hard at school, aced his entrance exams to the academy and graduated third in his class. But the boy's hero-worship eventually turned to resentment, and neither knew how to repair it.''

:''While Lee was at flight school, his younger brother was away at Viper Squadron and a plum assignment on Atlantia - flagship of the fleet. Lee tried to dissuade him, but Zak did not want to be the only Adama without wings on his uniform. Zak's application was turned down. As Commander Adama pulled a few strings to get his son in, Lee was furious.''

:''Two weeks later, Zak's plane went down while he was flying a routine solo mission and he was killed. Lee spent the next two years focusing on his career, having no personal life and working to become the perfect fighter pilot.''

As this information does not come from the official Scifi.com site, it's authenticity is in question. Further, it is contradicted by on screen evidence: Zak was killed in an accident at flight school, and was never on a battlestar. Further, Lee did not work hard (at least after Zak's death) to be the best Viper pilot or to improve his career; multiple cast interviews and RDM podcasts state that he was despondent, didn't know what to do with his life, and was considering leaving the service. Further, in "[[Final Cut]]" we see that he is a member of the Colonial Fleet Reserves, not regular fleet, indicating that he wasn't particularly concerned with a lifelong career.

{{start box}}
{{succession box|before=[[Jackson Spencer|Jackson "Ripper" Spencer]]|title=Commander, Air Group of the [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''|after=[[George Birch|George "Catman" Birch]]}}
{{succession box|before=[[George Birch|George "Catman" Birch]]|title=Commander, Air Group of the [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''|after=[[Kara Thrace|Kara "Starbuck" Thrace]]}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown, eventually [[Jack Fisk]])''|title=Executive Officer of the [[Mercury class battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''|after=''(unknown, eventually [[Anastasia Dualla]])}}
{{succession box|before=[[Barry Garner]]|title=Commanding Officer of the [[Mercury class battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''|after=Incumbent}}
{{end box}}

== See Also ==

* [[Apollo (TOS)]]
* [[Richard Hatch]]
* [[Tom Zarek]]

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Adama, Lee]]
[[Category:Characters|Adama, Lee]]
[[Category:RDM|Adama, Lee]]
[[Category:People from Caprica|Adama, Lee]]

Joseph Adama

2006-04-10T23:09:47Z

Mazzy:

'''Joseph Adama''' was the father of [[William Adama]]. He apparently hailed from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]].

Adama was a civil liberties lawyer ([[Litmus]]) and had divorced from [[Evelyn Adama]] when their son, William, was in his teens. Nevertheless, William later remarked that he thought Joseph was a better father than he ever was ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).

Joseph always carried a silver lighter into his cases; he considered it good luck, and claimed he only lost a case when he left it at home. He later gave it to William, who, after the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|holocaust]], loaned it to [[Lee Adama|his son]] ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]). It was returned to him after the mission's success.

Before going to trial Joseph would aways break pencils before entering the courtroom as a reminder to "break preconceptions" and "work with what you had." He would then ask to borrow a pencil from the clerk. William told [[Laura Roslin]] about this ritual before her upcoming Presidential debate, leading her to try it herself. ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]).

[[Category:A to Z|Adama, Joseph]]
[[Category:Characters|Adama, Joseph]]
[[Category:RDM|Adama, Joseph]]
[[Category:Mentioned-Only|Adama, Joseph]]

Anne Adama

2006-04-10T23:07:15Z

Mazzy: removed a word that muddled a sentence. Anne was the second wife, not married to adama twice.

'''Anne Adama''' was [[William Adama]]'s second wife. Her father was friends with a member of the Defense Subcomittee important member of the defense subcommittee; it was partly through this connection that her husband was able to reinstate both himself and [[Saul Tigh]] in the Colonial Fleet after their post-war furlough.

Tigh referred to Anne as William Adama's new wife during a flashback roughly 20 years prior to the events in the [[Miniseries]], giving viewers an approximate date of their marriage ([[Scattered]]).

No information has been given in any aired content as to the fate of William's and Anne's marriage. A clue that the Adamas were still married may be the grieving appearance of Commander Adama as he announces the destruction of Caprica City during the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Cylon attack]] ([[Miniseries]]), which presumes that loved ones, perhaps Anne herself, are Commander Adama's personal losses. Keen viewers also note that Adama wears a wedding ring, further supporting his current marital status with Anne.

[[Category:A to Z|Adama, Anne]]
[[Category:Characters|Adama, Anne]]
[[Category:Mentioned-Only]]
[[Category:RDM|Adama, Anne]]

Talk:Viper (TRS)/Archive 1

2006-04-08T18:41:11Z

Mazzy: /* Mk. VII Vipers FTL Capable? */

==Mk. VII Vipers FTL Capable?==
Before I say anything, I'd like to point out that I'm speculating all of this. I have heard nowhere else that the Mk. VII's have FTL drives.

I think that the Mk. VII's have installed jump engines. My reasoning is as follows:
The last time we saw a Viper squadron that was composed entirley of Mk. VII's was Ripper's squadron during the miniseries. Before they were destroyed, they were being reassigned to Caprican locan defense squadron. Galactica was not really close to Caprica when this mission started, the distance required to travel would be best done with a FTL jump.
The next time we see Mk. VII's used extensivley is on Pegasus. Stinger orders two Mk. VII's and a Raptor - which we know are jump capable - on the recon mission. The target is too far away to be reached realistically at sublight speeds. Stinger may be uncreative and lacking initiave, but hes not stupid, and would not design a mission with such an obvious flaw. The Mk. VII's must have FTL drives. Furthermore, we now know that ships that small can carry FTL drives, i.e. the [[Blackbird]]. In fact, its entirley possible that the Blackbird's FTL drive itself CAME from a scrapped Mk. VII, instead of [[Raptor 305]] - the FTL engines for a Raptor might be too big for the tiny Blackbird, but a Mk. VII is only slightly bigger than the Blackbird.
The other small craft from the era of the second Cylon war, the Raptor, does have FTL drive. It would make sense that the Colonials installed an FTL drive on Mk. VII's, but not Mk. II's, because Mk. VII's are about 50 years newer.

Just a bunch of speculation. Feel free to add to my theory or poke some holes in it. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:51, 7 January 2006 (EST)
:Remember though, the Colonial 798 was making the trip, it was only 30 light minutes. In the novel btw, they were refueling at Caprica before continuing on to Picon where the squadron would be split up. Also, the trip from Caprica to the Big-G only took 798 5.4 hours. Military pilots endure longer flights across the Atlantic. Remember, Apollo was flying 7242 back to Caprica and it is a Mk. II. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 21:12, 7 January 2006 (EST)

:I'm inclined to agree, as the 2 Vipers and a Raptor thing had occured to me before, always while I wasn't around to add it here. It'd be '''very''' hard to explain otherwise. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 22:10, 7 January 2006 (EST)

::This would also make it easier to believe that the three Mk. VII vipers seen in Roslin's fleet were later integrated into Galactica's squadron. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:21, 7 January 2006 (EST)
:::You would think that if the Mk. VII was FTL-capable, they would've used them in the attack on the Tyllium asteroid. You know, jump behind the raider screen to attack the asteroid. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 08:25, 8 January 2006 (EST)
::::Yes, but Mk. VII's are "a handful for all but the most experienced of pilots." Starbuck was out for this mission, and the only other person we've seen fly a Mk. VII is Apollo - that is, until we see Pegasus, in which the entire compliment of pilots flies Mk. VII's. Again, another continuity error... so much for naturalistic science fiction. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:42, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:::::Well, they needed the nuggets to round out the squadron, and they were only certified for the Mk. IIs. Maybe the more experienced pilots also chose Mk. IIs to maintain tactical cohesion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:31, 22 January 2006 (EST)

I'm sorry that I didn't see this page before January 7th-ish. However, '''I think this entire line of reasoning is flawed''', and it's just jumping to conclusions here. The three main points you have here are that:
1)Galactica was far from Caprica 
2)Stinger ordered two Viper Mark VII's on a recon mission with a Raptor in "Pegasus" 
3)You think that since, small-sized (not captial-ship sized) vessels like Raptors have Jump drives, Vipers must also. 

However, all of these are fairly well explainable:

1) Galactica and Caprica and in the same star system at the time, albeit on opposite sides of the system or something. Remember, the conceit of the show is that there are Twelve habitable worlds in their one star system. Further, they made it a point that they don't always use Jump drives when they don't need to, fuel consumption, etc. 
2)Stinger did '''not''' order two Viper Mark VII's on a recon mission in "Pegasus". Although he ordered "Whiplash" and "Thumper" to get their "optical gear ready" he never said that they were going in their Mark VII's; although Whiplash is a Viper pilot, for all we know the two of them, just like Apollo, are qualified to operate a Raptor and Stinger just trusts them more or something. Point is, he never explicitly says "Viper", and we know that some Viper pilots know how to use Raptors. 
3) Raptors are bigger than a Viper, for starters, much bigger, so I think they can fit an FTL drive inside that Vipers cannot. Further, it's a "Limited" FTL drive. That is, it can only make small "hops" as opposed to one big Jump like Galactica. Remember how the "Ships" gallery on the official site explains that some ships have "short legs"? That is, they can get from Planet A to Planet B by making many small Jumps instead of one big one. On top of all of this, a Raptor is not a frontline combat unit. It's an electronic support ship. Heck, we've never even seen these things using weapons on a regular basis (missiles ''once''). So I think because they're not meant for frontline combat highspeed manuevering, they can fit in a bulky FTL drive, etc.

All of this leads me to the conclusion that speculating that Viper Mark VII's have FTL drives doesn't really hold up. I'm going to revert the edit on the article. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:05, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Fair enough. 1 and 3 were fluff that I came up with after I had the Pegasus and Stinger reason, but yeah, you managed to poke a hole in that one that I missed. You've been doin' that with a lot of my theories lately. :-P :-) On a serious note, the two Raptors makes the most sense, and Whiplash and Thumper must be qualified in both. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 23:13, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::Well I'm just pointing out facts and proceeding from there; I mean I'm not going to just say "I disagree because that's dumb and I think Vipers shouldn't have them because I said so", etc. etc. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:17, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:::That wasn't meant to be a jab at you or anything - I agree with you. I went back and read the transcript of the dialogue, and you're completely right, Stinger doesn't mention Vipers.

:::After I mixed up yours and Peters comments on the Timeline (RDM) talk page, I was afraid you thought I was a troll or something, just making trouble. I'm not, I just wanna help contribute to this wonderful wiki you've got going here. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 00:44, 23 January 2006 (EST)

::::I couldn't find this on the editing page so I'll just comment here. The word 'status' next to the FTL link seems awkward. Presence, maybe or just cut it. As in order to have a status, it would have to be present yes? Or is that there because someone is convinced they are onboard but not online? Dunno, just thought I should point out it seems unnecessary. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 13:41, 8 April 2006 (CDT)

==Mark vs. Mk==
About the recent string of edits: I'm not certain, did we agree on the convention of using "Mark II" or "Mk II"? All of the "Mk"'s just got reverted to "Mark"'s. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:47, 15 October 2005 (EDT)
:We made the consensus that either Mark or Mk. were acceptable IIRC. I just think though that using Mark in, especially, designations looks sloppy. Mk. is an established military designation, especially in the British military. For full titles, I think it should be Mk. but Mark would be fine for others. The picture of the Mk. II, for example, I think looks better as Viper Mk. II rather than Viper Mark II. Conversely, I think that a line of text such as "The raiders engaged in a furball with seven Mark IIs" is fine. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:06, 3 November 2005 (EST)
::Also, note the period in Mk. as it is an abbreviation. I just read throught the Viper article and I think it just looks bad. Remember though, this is coming from someone who grew up reading "Jane's All the Worlds Aircraft" and such so it could just be what I'm used to. I only changed it in the picture captions. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:09, 3 November 2005 (EST)

Made the following changes:
*Mark VII has three engines, not two. Its third engine is partially shrouded by the fighter's tail root.
*Elaborated on what and how the Cylons comprimised the Mk VII.
*Suggested a possible thrust vectoring feature on the Mk VII's engines, based on its angular, segmented design.

Well, time to date and ID this old thing.

--[[User:David Templar|David Templar]], 4 May, 2005

== Changes ==

I deleted the Notes section following the Viper specs, it used to say:

"Since the Galactica only had 40 Viper Mk. II's aboard, they needed as many fighters as possible, thus the remaining Mk. VII's were refitted and stripped of their advanced computer systems. However, since this is not how the Mk. VII was designed, it makes the craft increasingly difficult to handle and can only be flown by the most experienced pilots (Apollo & Starbuck). Galactica has roughly 6-8 Mk. VII's on board after the Cylon attack ("Scattered", "Flight of the Phoenix")."

Almost none of that is canon. There's no indication that the Mk VII's systems were altered beyond removing the comprimised navigation software. The comment about it becoming more difficult to fly was taken from the Scifi channel's page, which has been wrong on more than one occasion. It certainly is not backed up by anything in the show.--David Templar, Octber 14, 2005
:I am completely reverting your edit. Yes, Scifi.com has been known to make mistakes, but nonetheless '''we regard it as canon until flatly contradicted by something else'''. Much of our Viper pilot numbers for the first season are based on the running count on the Vipers "CAG roster" section of the gallery. Further, it makes sense. Lastly, when you are talking on a discussion page, sign your name instead of leaving it blank, and date it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]], October 14, 2005

::I'm sure Ricimer meant to say "please". You can use <nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki> to leave behind a signature automatically. Also, that fact that the nuggets were started out in Mk. IIs lends support to the idea that they're somewhat easier to fly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:28, 15 October 2005 (EDT)

:::Thanks Peter. No, I completely disagree with Ricimer that gutting the Mk VII's computers makes any sense. The problem has clearly been one of an exploitable software, which can be purged and the computer reverted to an earlier, safe program. So why would they take out all the advance computers? It's overkill to an unreasonable extent. At worst, they can disconnect the navigation computer from certain other systems, and that would not affect the ship's handling characteristics at all, even assuming the flight control falls under the navigational computer. And I'm pretty sure they're training pilots on the Mk IIs not only because they're simpler to fly (they're like Cessnas to Mk VII's F-16, Apollo has complained about their lack of electronics before in the miniseries), but also because they're more expendable (and possibly more rugged). We know that the Mk VIIs are certified for combat, and they're undoubtedly superior to the Mk II (even in the event that they have been lobotemized), so why would they have trainees fly the most complex, least replacible fighters when they don't even know if they can land? I hope this sig thing works.... --[[User:David Templar|David Templar]] 01:40, 15 October 2005 (EDT)
::::Wait, what you just said contradicted what was just said above; I mean, how could Viper Mark II's be more complex? I'm pretty sure on the basic idea that the networked control computers have been removed, at the cost of worse performance. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 09:29, 15 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::Sorry, should have phrased the sentence better. "why would they have trainees fly the most complex, least replacible fighters" refers to the Mk. VII, not the Mk. II. Flight control computers doesn't have to be networked with the other systems to work, though, maybe except the engines. The flight control system is only responsible for translating the pilot's control input into proper reaction control thruster response, that doesn't really require the help of any other systems. If one wants to get down right to the bone of the problem, it's this, in space flight, your ship has to be able to perform the following actions for you because you humanly can't:

:::::*You need your thrusters to fire twice for every course change you make, once to get you moving, once to stop you from continuing to move. This is technologically simple to do and doesn't require a networked computer, the thruster simply times the duration of its firing and tells it opposite number to fire for the same exact duration and power level once the pilot stops pulling the stick. You can't "unnetwork" the thrusters from each other (not that it'd achieve anything helpful) and/or "fly manually" in this area, it simply won't work, unless you intend to move with all the agility of the space shuttles. But even the space shuttle has computers to do the above tasks for it. If the pilot has to push his stick in the exact opposite direction as he had pulled it for the exact duration he had pulled it... Well, I think you get the idea. Since this doesn't really require an advanced computer, I don't see why if flight control has its own computer that it'd be changed.

:::::*The ship needs to able to know where it is, its relative velocity and vector from its immediate environment and the direction the nose is pointed. This is required for the ship to basically know how to stop itself from spinning, tumbling or drifting out of control. This would require the navigation system (it being in charge of knowing the ship's orientation and direction travelled) and could pose a problem for the pilot if it's decoupled from flight control... To put it mildly. Assuming the Mk. VII's navigational computer can autopilot the ship into controlled flight (ie. not tumbling and drifting laterally with respect to a defined orientation, say Galactica herself), then removing the link between navigational computer and flight control (assuming they're even separate systems) would mean that the navigational computer has to generate a heading indicator on the HUD for the pilot to point the ship at and burn towards order to bring an out of control ship back into controlled flight (without such a basic computer assistance, space fighter combat is impossible).

:::::Now, would having to use such an indicator make the Mk. VII harder to fly than the Mk. II? Not really. It would at the most make both equally difficult to stability in combat if the pilot lets the fighter get away from him. In controlled flight, however, there would be no real difference that isn't hardware based. If both fighters have thrusters of the same performance arranged in comparable positions, then they're both going to fly pretty much the same way. If the Mk. VII has more powerful thrusters in better positions, then it'll be more agile, although that is doubtful since the Mk. II is already incredibly agile and if the Mk. VII is notably more agile, I really don't know how the pilot can remain conscious. It could be that such a combination would allow the Mk. VII to get away from her pilot more easily (more sensitive to handle) and a dumbed down control recovery system makes stabilizing harder, but from what Starbuck has told us, the Mk. II is just as dangerous a performer if not MORE SO. At least in a highly computerized fighter, safety protocols can be put in place to control the violence with which the fighter turns (customizing control sensitivity to the pilot); less computerized fighters just does what it can as hard as it can. Also, from what we've seen of the Mk. II in combat, pilots have on several occasions put their Viper into a complex spin, suggesting that their control recovery might be automatic rather than indicator based. A manual recovery can be a very length event, depending on the degree of which the ship is out of control and the ability of the pilot, and almost certainly fatal if one is underfire as it involve making your fighter flying steady again. Frankly, it's not really even that hard to do for a computer, so the computer responsible for this doesn't seem likely to be particularly advanced.

:::::Now, what would decoupling flight control from navigation system accomplish in terms of protecting the fighter from Cylon infiltration? Absolutely nothing, assuming if they can even be treated as separate systems. The connection between flight control and navigation was never the problem, the whole problem was Cylon accessing the entire fighter via navigations. If navigation system can be separate from the rest of the network without affecting any of the nav system's duties as listed above, why gut every advance computer on the fighter? And if only the networking function has been removed from the Mk. VII, it certainly doesn't really make the Mk. VII harder to fly than the Mk. II.
:::::--[[User:David Templar|David Templar]] 17:03, 15 October 2005 (EDT)

Although I can't bring myself to read that impressive missive through entirely, I would just like to note that Baltar's CNP was clearly a new development, and very probably postdated the Mk. VII anyway. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 15 October 2005 (EDT)

I just had a tidbit to add, the Mk VII has a side stick while the Mk II has a center-mounted stick. IRL most FBW aircraft use side-mounted sticks, joysticks mounted on a side panel instead of between the pilots' legs, while most pre-FBW craft used center-mounted sticks. The F-16 is an example of the former and the F-14, the latter. ...Just something I noticed while watching 33 recently. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:58, 12 December 2005 (EST)

== Changes revisted ==
This is over the following:

"Since Galactica only had 40 Viper Mark II's aboard, they needed as many fighters as possible, thus the remaining Mark VII's were refitted and stripped of their advanced computer systems. However, since this is not how the Mark VII was designed, it makes the craft increasingly difficult to handle and can only be flown by the most experienced pilots such as Apollo and Starbuck. Galactica has roughly 6-8 Mark VII's on board after the Cylon attack ("Scattered", "Flight of the Phoenix"). (source: Scifi.com series website)"

I think there are enough evidence now to contradict the above and warrant its removal. The above was based on the idea that the Mk VII's high level of computerization made it vulnerable, not just Baltar's comprimised CNP. We're now quite sure that the CNP is the only culprit behind Mk VII's vulernability versus the Cylons. Season 2 has shown that everyone can fly Mk VIIs just fine and makes absolutely no mention of any removal of computer systems despite 20 episodes of opportunities. Even before Season 2, the miniseries flat-out said it was the CNP, but now we have even clearer proof that the Mk VIIs will work just fine without a total cybernetic lobotomy.

I'm not going to remove the section at this time, though, I'm waiting for people to agree and someone else can remove it. --[[User:David Templar|David Templar]] 14:32, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== Dimensions new series Viper Mk II & Mk VII ==

The dimensions given here for the new series Vipers are a bit off. The correct sizes acording to Lee Stringer [http://www.leestringer.com/],one of the VFX Animators of the Mini Series, are:

=== '''Viper Mk2''' ===

Length: 8.4082 m

Wingspan: 4.7168 m

Height: 2.7247 m (in flight, without landing gear!)

=== '''Viper Mk7''' ===

Length: 9.8643 m

Wingspan: 5.61 m

Height: 2.9508 m (in flight, without landing gear!)

''"... IMPORTANT NOTE: These are from the CGI models NOT the fullsize props. Although measurements etc. where taken of the full size props and the CGIs made from that, it doesn't mean they match 100% ..." quote'' '''Lee Stringer'''

'''Source: [http://www.starshipbuilder.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000012.html]'''

--[[User:ThRow|ThRow]] 13:57, 3 November 2005 (EST)

:Excellent. I encourage you to add this information to the appropriate pages with the source and Mr. Stringer's credentials. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:48, 3 November 2005 (EST)

::Done!
::Same source gives also dimensions for [[Raptor]], [[Galactica (RDM)]] and [[Basestar (RDM)]].
::--[[User:ThRow|ThRow]] 23:25, 3 November 2005 (EST)

:::I rejigged your citation to use the footnote templates we have available. If you'd like to familiarize yourself with their use, please see [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad]] for references. Thanks for helping to make this site a more reliable resource. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:28, 4 November 2005 (EST)

I remember reading in a previous article on the raptors and Galactica's combat ships that the Vipers couldn't have a specific breakdown like the Raptors because we didn't have specific numbers to go along with each.

Well in [[Flight of the Pheonix]], Chief Tyrol does say the registry for Viper 54289. It's the Viper that Tyrol labels as unserviceable scrap. I wasn't sure if any one wanted this info so i just posted it under Viper Talk. [[User:Ltcrashdown|Ltcrashdown]] December 25, 2005
:I listened to the audio on the DVD and he clearly says "Viper 289." The subtitles have to be a mistake, we've only seen three digit and four digit numbers on Vipers. You can see my theory on Viper serial numbers on the [[Viper 2276]] talk page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:39, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::We do have an article on [[Viper 289]] as of recently. The comment disparaging the notion of keeping track of Vipers was probably mine, but I've changed my mind about that. It may also be possible to find other Viper serial numbers on DRADIS screens. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:24, 25 December 2005 (EST)

Well it wouldn't be the first time that there's a small mistake in the subtitles [[User:Ltcrashdown|Ltcrashdown]] December 25, 2005
:I just wanted to use the DVDs I just got (about 30 minutes before for Christmas). Anyway, I'm going to go through, looking for Viper numbers and such. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 13:25, 25 December 2005 (EST)

==Viper Redirect==
Spencerian, you read my mind. I was wondering if maybe we should put a disambig at the top of this article, and then change Viper to a redirect to here. It's very common for people to just link Viper, and since we're rounding out the TOS content, most of the new references are going to be talking about this article. That way I'll never have to go on another Viper crusade like I did today... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:01, 17 January 2006 (EST)

==Mk II Turn Speed==
I remember starbuck saying in an episode that the viper can 'turn end over end in .35 seconds'. She says this when she is trying to scare the nuggets shes training. If someone remembers the episode an addiction ought to be made. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 01:21, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:Hi, Antagonist. I remember it: "[[Act of Contrition]]," where we first see [[Kat]], among other nuggets. Technically speaking, this is also something that may be worth exploring on the [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] article, where technobabble is debunked with ''"Mythbusters"''-like tenacity. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:07, 13 February 2006 (EST)

Talk:Marcia Case/Archive 1

2006-04-08T18:27:39Z

Mazzy:

== Article subject emphasis ==
I wasn't sure which way to go on the emphasis with the callsign wedged in there like that, so I gave it a guess. It will be a non-issue if she ends up with a character data template to hold the callsign info (assuming she's around enough to merit a character data template). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:29, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:Genneraly, It's rank (bold) firstname "callsign" lastname (bold). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:43, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:::Not sure what you mean by that [[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]]but is that why she isnt listed on the main character page? There are links to characters who died but none for my girl here. *sad* -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 13:06, 8 April 2006 (CDT)
::::What main character page? Well, that little box on the bottom of the character pages, and our list of recurring characters, well both of those only really include characters that have appeared in more than one episode. And although I'm pushing tha agenda "Frak Dualla, make Showboat the new series' [[Sheba]]", this is still just a dream. But they can't take the sky from me.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:09, 8 April 2006 (CDT)

::::: this one V. If you notice Page is a character with one epi and he dies. [[http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Category:Characters]] -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 13:11, 8 April 2006 (CDT)

:::::La, shes listed under her name, I though i looked for that but hey, sorry *goober alert. Ack. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 13:21, 8 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::Yeah we list people by their real name if possible (if we know it), and link their callsign to their normal name page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:23, 8 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::Was just thrown by all the 'S' listings. Thanks for being attentive to my flail ha ha. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 13:27, 8 April 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Marcia Case/Archive 1

2006-04-08T18:21:11Z

Mazzy:

User:Mazzy

2006-04-08T18:16:52Z

Mazzy:

Talk:Marcia Case/Archive 1

2006-04-08T18:13:13Z

Mazzy:

Talk:Marcia Case/Archive 1

2006-04-08T18:11:06Z

Mazzy:

Talk:Marcia Case/Archive 1

2006-04-08T18:06:48Z

Mazzy:

Talk:Fan fiction/Golden Toaster Awards/Archive 1

2006-04-07T22:17:04Z

Mazzy:

I don't remember what "lifetime achievement awards" like the TOSer, Solium, and GINO stood for. I have to ask the guy in charge: the actual website (GalacticaActual) where the event was held has been destroyed, apparently, so I also no longer know exactly who the nominees were, but I can check for the meaning of these awards. I do, however, have an accurate list of the winners.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:13, 29 January 2006 (EST)

:I like this. =) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 17:23, 29 January 2006 (EST)

==Silly Pages==
If these are real, then this page doesn't actually belong in the Silly Pages category. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:48, 29 January 2006 (EST)

:Well....then what category would apply?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:52, 29 January 2006 (EST)
::I'm not sure if we have one for fandom topics. Do we have other pages that would be included in such a category? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:54, 29 January 2006 (EST)

== A concern ==

I'm just a bit concerned about this article, given that it isn't an actual award ceremony. Perhaps this article would be better left in the user space (i.e. [[User:Username/Golden Toaster Awards]]) rather than in the article namespace. Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:21, 24 March 2006 (CST)

No. Ron Moore & Co. ''know'' about this thing and we're starting up the Second Awards; we just started this week, and our placeholder [http://goldentoasterawards.hangardeck5.com/ website for the 2nd awards is up here]. More news to follow. Please leave it as it is for now. Plus, quite possibly the entire online community is involved and it really ''is'' an "awards show", just one held online.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:28, 24 March 2006 (CST)

:I don't mind having fandom topics discussed here, as long as there's no ambiguity between what's canonical and what's fan-related - and this article is pretty clear. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:30, 24 March 2006 (CST)
::Even if they know it, it doesn't mean everyone excepted it. I think it should not be in the article database. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:26, 24 March 2006 (CST)
::: Perhaps some kind of template for the header, much like the current neutrality one, but specifically for fan related articles. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 11:06, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
::::Not a bad idea there: casual users don't always notice the categories on the ''bottom'' of an article; having a tag in "nice big shiny letters" (haha) having another tag that says something's related to the fanbase would be okay. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:01, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
::::Proposed fandom template [[:Template:Fandom|here]]. Could use [[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] template image skills, as well as possibly attaching a Fandom cat. Then we could tag Golden Toasters and Fan fiction. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:50, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::There is no reason for anyone on the show not to accept fan awards, and every cast member who has been told about it has been gracious and grateful, naturally. I don't see any reason to exclude this. It is a fact that these ceremonies take place with a lot of fan participation and it is a fact that these awards are given, and it is a fact that the cast and crew are notified where possible, and respond. At Galactica Actual they posted few responses from the recipients and I'm sure that this will happen again. If there is some reason why this one of the most formal interactions between the fans and the cast/crew should be treated as if it is a matter of opinion or it never happened, I can't imagine what that reason might be.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 14:25, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
::::I agree with Dogger. These awards were a pretty big deal last year, with a lot of participation from across fandom and some wonderful validation from the cast and crew. They may not be some industry-sanctioned award, but they are well-organized and well-taken by the creators of the show. And, as a newbie around here, I'd prefer the article stay somewhere obvious, where I can find it. I can't possibly be the only one... -- [[User:Sabaceanbabe|Sabaceanbabe]] 15:05, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::You may call me a dreamer, but I am not the only one...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:09, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Based on what MrsRon has told us, these awards are as real to RDM as any other award so I think that presenting the information in article format is appropriate. --[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 15:51, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::: I have read MrsRon's responses as well, and she indicated that it was something of interest. I would think it a positive impact moment, and information to share with fans even in the form of a link. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 17:17, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

User talk:Mazzy

2006-04-07T21:52:06Z

Mazzy:

== Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! ==

Welcome to the Wiki, Mazzy. Feel free to tell us about yourself on [[User:Mazzy|your user page]]. Before you get started on other edits, please read the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]], which details the policies we use in editing pages (this differs from many other wikis in consistent use of phrasing, abbreviations, format, and the like).

Also, if you have any questions or suggestions you wish to offer, please feel free to do so either on your user talk page, the [[Battlestar Wiki:Wikipedian Quorum|Wikipedian Quorum]] or [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Administrators' noticeboard]]. Remember to sign your posts on any talk pages using four tildes (~~~~)! --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:37, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

Thank you for the welcome and the information. I don't understand the tilde thing but I hope I get it right. Is it customary to leave a space between enteries on this page? -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 02:15, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

:Yeah, but note that by leaving a colon at the beginning of your first line, you can indent an entire paragraph (hitting Enter and making a new paragraph necessitaties making a colon again). We also put two dashes -- in front of the four tildes. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:17, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

::Want me to set up your bio box? It's like the one I have, or the one I set up for [[User:AerynSun44|Aerynsun44]]--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:18, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

:::That would be great V, I'm sorry I punked out, lappy ran out of juice and so did I. Whatever you did for Aeryn I am sure would be fine. Let me know what you need from me.-- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 07:21, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Started the set-up for you. Click on the [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User:Mazzy&action=edit edit] to format it ho you would like. You can upload a picture of you if you like using the [[:Special:Upload|upload]] page. Otherwise remove the image i put in for you. Any row left blank will not show up in the profile. Experiment and see. Take a look at mine to see how I did it if you want. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 07:39, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

:::::Thank you for all the help, Merciful and of course V. Please bear with my learning processes, I will get better I promise. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 09:31, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

Questions for anyone before I mess something up.
----
I was checking the Racetrack page and noticing the spelling of her name is not the same as how it is spelled on her Raptor. I was wondering if that should be noted somewhere. Also I read that the actress has a prefered nick name for her Character and I wondered if there is a special place for those type of notes. Thanks for any info on what is normal practice with either of these things, obviously I am learning and as I get braver I will stop asking these basics. Thank you in advance. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 01:01, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:[[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]]. Otherwise, if people notice something wrong, they can fix it fast. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:06, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
::Thank you for bringing this to attention Mazzy. I'm going to go through my DVD's to get how the credits spell it. Which episode was her name visible on her Raptor? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:16, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

::: Thank you for the link [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]), I have read it. I was more concerned that it isn't a wiki error it is an inconsistency in the show and if we articulate them here. I appreciate your lightening fast response! -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 01:27, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I am sorry V, I don't know which epi, but I have the cap if that helps. And thank you as usual. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 01:27, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Can you link the caps? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:35, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::: Well maybe [http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b177/lymiryc/Racetrack.jpg] Ok we will see if that works... Thanks for your help V. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 01:41, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::I'm going to chalk that one up as a simple prop department goof (this happens all the time; someone misreads a memo, or simply paints the wrong thing, etc.) In this [http://www.galacticastation.com/Galactica%20Station/Screencaps/S2/208/bscap197.htm screencap] of her interview in "Final Cut", her name is ''prominently'' displayed on screen as "Edmonson" without a second "D", and all of her listings in the credits at the end of an episode following this call her "Edmonson". Looks like this was just a random one-shot goof. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:24, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

:::::::: Ok, well I didn't know if that stuff was logged seperately as well. Thank you so much for your time. If I happen to see anything to the contrary, I will let you know. Is there a record of goofs? -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 02:33, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

::::::::: Yeah im pretty sure its a porps goof, ive seen the name a few times and its not had the second D. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 03:10, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::: Thank you [[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] for affirming. I appreciate any and all comments! -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 16:52, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

User talk:Mazzy

2006-04-07T07:33:25Z

Mazzy:

== Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! ==

Welcome to the Wiki, Mazzy. Feel free to tell us about yourself on [[User:Mazzy|your user page]]. Before you get started on other edits, please read the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]], which details the policies we use in editing pages (this differs from many other wikis in consistent use of phrasing, abbreviations, format, and the like).

Also, if you have any questions or suggestions you wish to offer, please feel free to do so either on your user talk page, the [[Battlestar Wiki:Wikipedian Quorum|Wikipedian Quorum]] or [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Administrators' noticeboard]]. Remember to sign your posts on any talk pages using four tildes (~~~~)! --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:37, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

Thank you for the welcome and the information. I don't understand the tilde thing but I hope I get it right. Is it customary to leave a space between enteries on this page? -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 02:15, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

:Yeah, but note that by leaving a colon at the beginning of your first line, you can indent an entire paragraph (hitting Enter and making a new paragraph necessitaties making a colon again). We also put two dashes -- in front of the four tildes. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:17, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

::Want me to set up your bio box? It's like the one I have, or the one I set up for [[User:AerynSun44|Aerynsun44]]--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:18, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

:::That would be great V, I'm sorry I punked out, lappy ran out of juice and so did I. Whatever you did for Aeryn I am sure would be fine. Let me know what you need from me.-- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 07:21, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Started the set-up for you. Click on the [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User:Mazzy&action=edit edit] to format it ho you would like. You can upload a picture of you if you like using the [[:Special:Upload|upload]] page. Otherwise remove the image i put in for you. Any row left blank will not show up in the profile. Experiment and see. Take a look at mine to see how I did it if you want. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 07:39, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

:::::Thank you for all the help, Merciful and of course V. Please bear with my learning processes, I will get better I promise. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 09:31, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

Questions for anyone before I mess something up.
----
I was checking the Racetrack page and noticing the spelling of her name is not the same as how it is spelled on her Raptor. I was wondering if that should be noted somewhere. Also I read that the actress has a prefered nick name for her Character and I wondered if there is a special place for those type of notes. Thanks for any info on what is normal practice with either of these things, obviously I am learning and as I get braver I will stop asking these basics. Thank you in advance. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 01:01, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:[[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]]. Otherwise, if people notice something wrong, they can fix it fast. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:06, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
::Thank you for bringing this to attention Mazzy. I'm going to go through my DVD's to get how the credits spell it. Which episode was her name visible on her Raptor? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:16, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

::: Thank you for the link [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]), I have read it. I was more concerned that it isn't a wiki error it is an inconsistency in the show and if we articulate them here. I appreciate your lightening fast response! -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 01:27, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I am sorry V, I don't know which epi, but I have the cap if that helps. And thank you as usual. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 01:27, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Can you link the caps? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:35, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::: Well maybe [http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b177/lymiryc/Racetrack.jpg] Ok we will see if that works... Thanks for your help V. -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 01:41, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::I'm going to chalk that one up as a simple prop department goof (this happens all the time; someone misreads a memo, or simply paints the wrong thing, etc.) In this [http://www.galacticastation.com/Galactica%20Station/Screencaps/S2/208/bscap197.htm screencap] of her interview in "Final Cut", her name is ''prominently'' displayed on screen as "Edmonson" without a second "D", and all of her listings in the credits at the end of an episode following this call her "Edmonson". Looks like this was just a random one-shot goof. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:24, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

:::::::: Ok, well I didn't know if that stuff was logged seperately as well. Thank you so much for your time. If I happen to see anything to the contrary, I will let you know. Is there a record of goofs? -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 02:33, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

User talk:Mazzy

2006-04-07T06:41:13Z

Mazzy:

User talk:Mazzy

2006-04-07T06:27:28Z

Mazzy: /* Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! */

User talk:Mazzy

2006-04-07T06:01:20Z

Mazzy: just a question

User:Mazzy

2006-04-06T09:51:22Z

Mazzy: just adding some stuff.

User talk:Mazzy

2006-04-05T14:31:54Z

Mazzy: /* Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! */

User:Mazzy

2006-04-05T14:29:07Z

Mazzy:

{{Character Data|
|photo= [[Image:Jet.jpg|200px]]
|age=
|colony= Scorpion
|birthname=
|callsign=Mazzy
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|marital status=
|children=
|role= Storyteller
|rank= Carpal Tunner (equivalent rank = Admiral)
|actor=
|cylon=
|name=
}}
STINGER AND SHOWBOAT FOREVER!

User talk:Mazzy

2006-04-05T12:21:57Z

Mazzy: /* Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! */

User talk:Mazzy

2006-04-05T12:21:27Z

Mazzy: /* Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! */

User:Mazzy

2006-04-05T07:15:50Z

Mazzy: /* Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! */

Talk:Landram/Archive 1

2006-04-05T06:29:58Z

Mazzy: /* RDM Landram */

== RDM Landram ==

Is that a landram at all? I mean it looks like one to me, but I could see a reasonable person arguing against it being clear. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 00:20, 5 April 2006 (CDT)
:Looks like a landram, lots of critics and people online thought it was a landram, etc. Art department having fun. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:28, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

If it is in comparison to the picture on the right, it is the same, but you definately have to use the zoom.--[[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]]01:31, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

Battlestar Wiki:Faux pas avoidance

2006-03-25T21:25:20Z

Mazzy:

[[Battlestar Wiki:Welcome, newcomers|Newcomers]] to Battlestar Wiki may find that it's easy to commit a ''[[Wikipedia:faux pas|faux pas]]''. That's OK — everybody does it! But here are a few you might try to avoid:

* '''Making dictionary-type entries unrelated to ''Battlestar''-specific words / jargon / slang.''' We take the stance that, should a word be not unique to ''Battlestar'', they be linked (or edited / added) to the [http://wiktionary.wikipedia.org Wiktionary].
* '''Making redundant articles.''' Before creating a new article, run a search for the topic — you may find a related one that already exists. Consider adding to existing articles before creating an entirely new one. In searching keywords, remember that article titles are usually singular, e.g. "Tree", not "Trees".
* '''Deleting useful content.''' A piece of content may be written poorly, yet still have a purpose. Consider what a sentence or paragraph tries to say. Clarify it instead of throwing it away. If the material seems miscategorized or out of place, consider moving the wayward material to another page, or creating a new page for it. If all else fails, and you can't resist removing a good chunk of content, it's usually best to move it to the article's "Talk page", which can be accessed using the "discussion" button at the top of each page. The author of the text once thought it valuable, so it is polite to preserve it for later discussion.
* '''Deleting biased content.''' Biased content can be useful content (see above). [[Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial|Remove the bias]] and keep the content.
* '''Deleting without announcing that you're doing it.''' Remark on it in the [[Wikipedia:edit summary|edit summary]] box. Otherwise, other users who care about the article's development will be caught unaware, and may think you're being intentionally sneaky.
*'''Deleting without justifying.''' Deleting anything nontrivial requires some words of justification in the [[Wikipedia:edit summary|edit summary]] or on the [[Wikipedia:talk page|talk page]]. If the justification is presented on the talk page, you can simply write "See talk:" in the edit summary box.
* '''Using Wikipedia pages as a chat room.''' See [[Wikipedia:Wikiquette#How to avoid abuse of Talk pages|How to avoid Talk page abuse]].
* '''Respecting "the author".'''
**''Critiquing instead of editing.'' Articles have no [[Wikipedia:Ownership of articles|single author]] with one overarching plan. Offering a suggestion or critique on the [[Wikipedia:Talk page|Talk page]] can be helpful, but it is often faster to just give the article what you think it needs.
** ''Failing to [[Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages|be bold]].'' Yes, you might mess things up a little. But someone else will probably clean up after you. Really, ''go ahead and change it'': we mean it.
* '''Arming for war.''' Wikipedia is a unique community of altruistic and consensus-oriented people. In other words, this isn't [[Wikipedia:Usenet|Usenet]], and [[Wikipedia:flame war|flaming]] is just not done. For more about Wikipedia manners, see [[Wikipedia:Wikiquette|Wikiquette]].
* '''Over-capitalizing titles.''' For instance, the second word in "French grammar" is in lower case. That's the Battlestar Wiki and Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions|house style]].
* '''Leaving in a huff because you find some bad articles.''' Wikipedia is a work in progress; please tolerate our (temporary) imperfection, and help us improve. There are a lot of smart people here, and everyone finds they have something to contribute. If you're still skeptical, see the [[Wikipedia:Replies to common objections|replies to common objections]].
* '''Deleting your User Talk page or removing text from your User Talk page.''' Talk pages are part of the historical record in Wikipedia, and your User Talk page is the best way others have of communicating with you. It's OK to clean up or archive old content, but please be very careful before removing content from your User Talk page; it makes it look as though you're trying to hide criticism.
* '''Creating more work for WikiJanitors''', especially for pages in the Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:namespace|namespace]]. Many well-meaning users will attempt to improve a process without considering that their changes will increase the workload for others. See: [[Wikipedia:m:instruction creep]].

[[Category: GFDL Licensed Works]] [[Category:Wikipedia]]

Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/The Merovingian

2006-03-16T03:17:19Z

Mazzy:

===[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]]===
[[Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship|Back to RFA]].

'''[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:<nowiki>Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/The Merovingian</nowiki>|action=edit}} Vote here] '''
'''(1/0/0) ending <nowiki>04:46</nowiki> 18 March 2006 (UTC)'''

{{User|The Merovingian}} – Self-nom.

:''Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here:'' I am the Merovingian, and I accept this nomination. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)

'''Support'''
#[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 02:41, 12 March 2006 (CST)
#[[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 09:41, 15 March 2006 (CST)
'''Oppose'''

'''Neutral'''

'''Comments'''
*Merv's behavior and contributions have been excellent lately, but given his sometimes mercurial disposition, I would feel more comfortable supporting his RFA if it were taking place in a few weeks' time. I will not oppose it, but I will have to contemplate the matter more before I can decide whether to support or cast my vote as neutral. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:12, 11 March 2006 (CST)
**Nonetheless, I have chosen to make the vote now. Vote what you want.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 18:14, 11 March 2006 (CST)
**Why is it that I cannot vote on this page? I have been registered for months and my email has been authenticated since November, but whenever I click the Vote Here link I get an apparently illegal url that includes an unresolved subsitution (FULLPAGENAME), and it comes up 'Bad Link'. I tried in Safari, in Camino, in Firefox, and in Internet Explorer for the Mac. No dice. Can't vote.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 23:39, 11 March 2006 (CST)
***Okay, I just voted by using the 'Edit' link and adding my name to the list, instead of by using the nonfunctional 'Vote Here' link. I hope that is acceptable.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 02:39, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::::In order for the "Vote here" button to work, you have to paste in the full wiki page name where the FULLPAGENAME was. I fixed the link (for those that don't want to just "edit". I also updated the vote count to reflect Dogger's vote (which was perfectly acceptable). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:48, 12 March 2006 (CST)

'''Questions for the candidate''' 

''A few generic questions to provide guidance for voters:''
:'''1.''' What duties, if any, would you anticipate helping with? Please check out [[:Category:Project Page]]s for a list of projects.
::A. Episode Summaries, episode analysis, episode questions, episode notes. Character bios. Cylon series. Spearheading the Writer/Director category project. Furthing the [[Timeline (RDM)|Timeline]] project (and fighting the grave threat posed by the [[Season two timeline discontinuity]]). The [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Battles series]]. Going through every source of ''information'' available, be it GalacticaStation, GateWorld, NowPlayingMagazine, Lucy Lawless fansites, Ron Moore's blog, the official messageboards, several shadowy rumor mills which I cannot disclose, and the podcasts, in order to obtain, analyze, developed and post as much ''information'' as possible on this Wiki, and turn it into a truly reliable "go-to" site for up to the minute BSG information.

:'''2.''' Of your articles or contributions here, are there any about which you are particularly pleased, and why?
::A. The battles pages, all of which were of my own design (I made the battleboxes for Lord of the Rings battles on standard wikipedia, and when these were done, I wanted to keep doing something like that so I created the battles series here); secondly, due yo my vast knowledge of BSG trivial facts and analysis, I have made great contributions to the episode guides, and as it's not like I have a life outside of this :) I'm usually the first to post notes for an episode up after it airs (though this is not a rule), and I'm really happy with the episode guide stuff I've done (check the history tabs, etc). I guess a random sampling of some of my better works would be [[Downloaded]], [[Cally]], [[Uniform]], [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]] etc., my great contributions to [[Life Forms of the Twelve Colonies]] (ever vigilant), and pretty much the entire episode guide. I spearheaded the most recent movement (after debate for months) to give Cylon copies who have become individuals their own character pages, and to consider them separate characters.

:'''3.''' Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or do you feel other users have caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?
::A. They are beyond count. Yet of late I have met these challenges with firm determination and responsibility.

[[User:The Merovingian]] I think I'd be good for administrator because of A) My stagering knowledge of all things BSG (haha), B) my extensive body of work here notably on the episode guides, battle pages, and C) My good looks. I'm formally putting myself up for nomination, etc. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:46, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:My campaign music: [http://bsg-cz.net/news/files/audio/Bear_McCreary_-_Resurrection_Ship.mp3 enjoy] --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 18:31, 11 March 2006 (CST)