Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

User talk:MALPASO

2006-09-26T00:02:53Z

Mateo:

hi!, welcome. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:02, 25 September 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Battlestar Galactica: The Resistance/Archive 1

2006-09-25T23:54:05Z

Mateo: /* Why one page? */

I think the Webisodes are a great idea that may expand the BSG Audience. Anyway, I can hope. --[[User:Gougef|gougef]] 22:07, 27 May 2006 (CDT)

I really, REALLY dont like the idea of this. 'Caprica' was bad enough (but i'll begrudgingly watch it anyway cause you kinda have to) but the idea of filler really, REALLY sucks - why oh why cant RDM and Eick just put the events of whats happened into one/two/three regular episodes rather than put these up? No doubt there'll be wonderful nuggegts of info put into these eps, and references made to them in normal eps that people wont get unless they watch these little 'things'. Ron - if you're reading this - you're getting WAY too ahead of yourself - keep to writing BSG itself first, no fancy pants crap, drop Caprica cause its a dumb idea and focus on what people want more of - BSG itself, not a spinoff, not webisodes - JUST BSG!!! </rant> Grr! --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 03:47, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
:Actually it might work really well, they did a similar thing with Richard E Grant voicing Doctor Who a few years back on the BBC website --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 06:38, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
: The BBC is also doing the ''Doctor Who Confidential'' series in tandem with the new ''Doctor Who'', as well as the mini ''Tardisodes'' that you can get from BBC's site. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:41, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
::I know the Tardisodes are available - but for those of us without broadband (i will be sans broadband for a long time in the next month or so), web episodes arent a good idea. There are going to be plenty of people that dont want to be forced into watching something online, and with the Tardisodes that the BBC put up, they're totally self contained AFAIK, with no references made to them from other episodes, and they're non-important in terms of the overall storyline of DW, as well as being able to be viewed on the Digibox (digital terrestrial DVB-T or Digital Satellite set top box) by pressing 'the big red button'. BSG on the other hand, they're talking about a major part of the backstory which is hardly what i'd call trivial! Are they going to air the episodes on telly for those countries outside the US or will they just assume everyone has fast broadband and dont watch telly? --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 13:07, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

:: This is the future of TV within 2-3 years most if not all tv shows will have some online content similar to the webisodes. --[[User:Gougef|gougef]] 12:14, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

:::I just cant see why its necessary to split up a show into loads of different segments, have some aired on telly, some on the net - it just makes everything that more annoying - why oh *why* can't TV execs just get the idea into their thick skulls that people are happy watching telly AS IT IS!!! --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 13:30, 19 June 2006 (CDT)

:::: My guess is that it is a business decision. You can show an advertiser exactly how many viewers. Also, you get more opportunities to advertise per viewer. Due to the web, DVR's, etc., I don't see the current TV business model surviving.--[[User:Gougef|gougef]] 13:46, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

I have the feeling that the episode "Unfinished Business" will be a clip show of the webisodes, Just a guess. --[[User:Gougef|gougef]] 12:14, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

:No, they showed that it's different stuff: "Unfinished Business" deals with stuff *before* the Cylons came, the webisodes deal with stuff after that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:52, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
::Great more BSG content :D!! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:52, 18 July 2006 (CDT)

:I do hope that these get aired on telly, i really, really do :'( --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 13:29, 19 June 2006 (CDT)

:This is not a bad idea at all. It's like a side project. Something that more than likely will have no tie-in to the regular series. Otherwise, why not call them teasers instead of webisodes? It's not featuring any of the main cast as far as we have been told. All the more interesting. My only regret about it is it will be something only accessed on Galactica's SciFi site, and not available on iTunes.--[[User:AJFederation|AJFederation]] 01:41, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

==Add into Episode Guide template==

Right now, Season 2 ends and proceeds to Season 3 in the template at the bottom of the screen: where's the page where I can add this webisode series into the succession?: I think it should be put at the beginning of Season 3 (or at least, after LDYB II clicking "next" would lead here, not season 3 proper). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:13, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

In addition, I think the format of this page should be that of any one episode in the episode guide; that is, there won't be separate subpages linked for each of the 10 webisodes: ***Bradley Thompson, who co-wrote these, said he considers it one story, just broken up into 10 chunks, which I think is just like how a normal episode is broken up by commercial breaks. This really isn't a separate series, so much as a "special episode". It's not a separate series, but part of the series between Seasons 2 and 3 (we asked Thompson how we should consider it with that; waiting on answer). --->Originally I had thought this would be a parent series page that had episodes linked from it, but based on Thompson's comments it makes more sense just to put it in an episode format. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:44, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

==September Debut==

An BSG article in the October issue of SciFi Magazine says the Webisodes will start in September. Whether the WGA actions will affect this or not is unknown. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:21, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
:The WGA announcement was this Wednesday. I do know they were originally planned to be aired for 10 weeks (one each week) before the season premiere...in which case they would already have started two weeks ago. I think there was foot dragging where they hoped to ''vaguely'' "have them out in September or something" but that this broke down. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:24, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
:: The mag probably went to print assuming that everything will be ok, but it's not?? No word from Bradley yet?--[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:28, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
:::Nothing. I'd make a big deal about it if there was. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:36, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
::::I was just hoping for tidbit of the webisodes by now to feed my raging beast ;-). Thanks for being on top of it--[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:40, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
I'm confused about the last paragraph of the Contract Disputes... section. We say "several weeks" later from August, the tapes were handed over. (I assume that means at least 3 weeks.) The WGA/NBCU dispute became public on Aug. 12 and the NLRB greviance was filed on the 18th. It doesn't seem that three weeks have passed. Can that be clarified? Also, what changed or broke the stalemate? There has been nothing announced in Variety or elsewhere, at least in regard to The Office. How can the BSG producers turn over tapes without getting in trouble with the writers guild, of which Moore and Eick are presumably members. Can anyone explain?--[[User:Elach|Elach]] 13:42, 28 August 2006 (CDT)

== "Image" ==

When we do a picture for the Episode Data block and this is all done, we should take all 10 of the images and put them in a pattern so it would be a mossic image. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 20:39, 2 September 2006 (CDT)

:I like your idea, and I suggest 2 wide by 5 tall, as it must be either 1x10 or 2x5 (barring tomfoolery), and 5x2 would have unfortunate aspect ratio consequences. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:20, 3 September 2006 (CDT)

== Connectivity?!? ==

Is anyone else having problems watching the webisodes?
I've waited all this time for them to air and I can't watch a single one!

How shady is that?

Do Sci-Fi.com have availbility problems regarding this, and how hong is it going to take to fix?

Does anyone know if they are going to be released in any other format other than webisode? --Jetstorm316
:I just watched it not 20 minutes ago and it worked. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 05:32, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::You need the latest Flash player. You can get it from the Marrocmedia Website. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 08:42, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::Any way to watch it if not from America? Wont let me watch here in the UK :( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:21, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::::Tried several US proxies and it just wont load. can someone save it and upload to google video or youtube or summit? :( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:40, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::::This is bending the policy,but it is on you-tube (Watch this morning because it works better than the official site at lower speeds). Should be a link on skiffy board somewhere. Or gtalk or gmail me and I will find the link. gougef at gmail dot com. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 11:44, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::::::Well said, Frankie. No hosting or linking to "illegal" copies... but like he said there's youtube links at sciffy (even though the admins appear to be trying to delete them). And the "flash player" official version was choppy even with ultra-broadband. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:00, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::::::Thanks for your help anyway guys. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:13, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Does any one have the link for the you tube version? My Flash player is upto date, but can't watch here in the UK........

Must be a Trans-Atlantic thing or something, but I hope they put it on 3.0 to compensate for people who are missing out.--Jetstorm316 19:12GMT 5 september 2006

EUREKA! Success at last! If you have a torrent client, go to this link,
<<removed link>>
Now, we can all watch it at our leasure --jetstorm316 19:34hrs GMT
:We don't host or link copies. Removed. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 13:18, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:Please do not link to the webisodes or clips of BSG on this Wiki that are copyrighted. Thank you --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 13:21, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

And thats the thanks I get for helping us all out who have connectivity problems? You know what, F*** the lot of you! I won't visit this site again!

This is the last entry for Jetstorm316

Goodbye and good F***ing luck to you bunch of F***ing losers!
:Please do not feel offended by up removing the link you posted. As i mentioned on your talk page It was nice of you to think of others but we dont want to get into any copyright issues with the producers. I hope you re-think your decision about leaving as your other contributions in the talk pages have been great --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 13:49, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::what Mercifull said. Personally, it was hard to get use to posting here after being involve with other online forums and communities. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 13:59, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::It's easy for me 'cause on other forums I don't link to that kinda junk anyway. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:51, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

'''Obviously''' there is more than a little frustration over not being able to connect outside the US. I'm not sure about the UK and other countries, but I do know that Canada's Space Channel has bought the show to broadcast on pretty much the same dates as in the US. This makes the fact that we Canadians(and anyone else who is going to see the show boadcast legally on television on October outside the US) would really benefit from being able to access the webisodes...we will watch the premier on Space, just like everyone else, except we are forced to result to illegal means to see the webisodes. I know this is a novelty, and perhaps the websiode content won't greatly affect the regularly aired shows, but really, I truly feel that this is a bad mistake on SciFi's behalf...and maybe even on Canada's Space Channel's Behalf for not seeking to host the webisodes on their Canadian site. It'll be something that they can claim as "EXTRA SPECIAL" on the DVD releases perhaps..but I think that once that is done, it becomes "bonus material" for the DVD and no longer the exciting and unique experience of participating with everyone else, waiting expectantly for the next five minute morsel to whet our appetites for the coming season...instead we have to lurk around in the dark and worry that maybe YOUTUBE is going to cut us off. We are fans and we all want the same great experience.

Maybe this isn't the place to debate...but I think I'll be writing both SciFi and SPACE to see how they can make a better, more rounded fan experience for an evidently GLOBAL audience.
--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:31, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

==Cast & Crew announced==
Now that Ron Moore has [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/ announced] the full cast and crew listing of the webisodes, it may be better to have a crew section and a cast section instead of listing the cast under each of the ten recaps. --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 21:17, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
:Agree, but we should make when we saw each cast memeber. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:29, 6 September 2006 (CDT)

== Sister Tivenan ==
I'd imagine the pirestess I didn't recognize in webisode 2 was the Sister Tivenan in those credits by elimination. That does not leave me quite comfortable with claiming her as identified. I didn't find a Tivenan by search here, so I'd assume she's a new character. I solicit opinions. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:54, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
:She appears to be a completely new character.--[[User:Larocque6689|Larocque6689]] 06:58, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

== Doral/Number Five ==

It seems like such a trivial thing to bring up, but I notice that the Wiki credits (anticipating his future appearance) now refer to Matthew Bennett's role as [[Number Five]] even though Ron's blog specifically refers to his role as [[Doral]] and that he is referred to as a Doral model in several episodes (including "[[Litmus]]".) Rather than revert it back, I'll just note the change and leave it up here as something to resolve until he makes his webisode debut.--[[User:Larocque6689|Larocque6689]] 07:04, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
:There are many Fives but only one Aaron Doral, and there's no indication that it's him. RDM refers to models other than Sixes as "D'annas", "Dorals", "Sharons" etc. for simplicity's sake. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 07:58, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

==Episode 3?==

So, uh, where the heck's Episode 3? It's not up! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 11:11, 12 September 2006 (CDT)
:Whoops, never mind. Episode 3 went up at 12 ''PM'' eastern as opposed to 12 ''AM'' Eastern. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 11:13, 12 September 2006 (CDT)
::Yeah. :) I just finshed watching it. It was ok. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 11:15, 12 September 2006 (CDT)
:::My silly school blocks streaming video :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 11:16, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

==Official Sources==
Thinking about moving the contract dispute stuff down the page into an Official Sources section. I find it distracting where it is. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:51, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

==Webisodes links==

Is it okay to add links to the webisodes? I searched the source of the article but didn't see any. What about removing the comments of Jetstorm316 above, or for that matter how about all the comments that folks made without reading the webisodes FAQ which is linked to on all the webisode pages? [[User:Eghm|Eghm]] 16:41, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
: What kind of links are we talking about here? Are we talking about the official Scifi.com links? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:05, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
:: Yes, such as /battlestar/video/webisodes/01/ (with the scifi dot com added to the front of course). [[User:Eghm|Eghm]] 17:35, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
:::Done. thanks for noticing that frakup. Also, the removed contents of Jetstorm was link(s) to "unofficial" copies. Can't link directly to FAQ because it is java popup from SciFi.com. May post relevant part to official statements. Thanks again. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:00, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
::::Swt, thanks and your welcome. The FAQ can be seen here http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/video/webisodes/faq.html I meant removing Jetstorms comments on this Talk page, maybe remove contents of the Connectivity?!? and replace it with the FAQ url? [[User:Eghm|Eghm]] 18:50, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
:::::I don't mind removing his comments, as long as we archive them. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:37, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

==Why one page?==
Why not have seperate pages for each webisode? Even the TVIV has seperate pages for each webisode. That's pretty embarrassing that the battlestarwiki has inferior coverage of something Battlestar related. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 18:42, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
: Actually, Mateo, this is just one episode split into 10 morsels. My present feeling is that this'll be rolled into one feature on the Season 3 DVDs when they come out (or they'll also air it on Sci-Fi sometime in the future as one 30 minute special). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:34, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
:: ''this is just one episode split into 10 morsels'' Says who? Scifi.com says otherwise. It describes them as 10 webisodes. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 18:54, 25 September 2006 (CDT)

== Cast and References ==
The references is a bit confusing. Cally [1][2] is for episode 1 and 4... Maybe it's different with Firefox, but right now I'm with IE. So, if we keep the references, we can create something like the wiki '''TvIV''' is using for the characters. Ex:

{| class="messagebox" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2"
! class="infoboxheader" | '''Cast Member'''
! class="infoboxheader" | '''Character'''
! class="infoboxheader" colspan="10" | '''Episode(s)'''
|-
| [[Nicki Clyne]]
| [[Cally Henderson Tyrol|Cally]]
| 1
|
|
| 4
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-
| [[Aaron Douglas]]
| [[Galen Tyrol]]
| 1
| 2
| 3
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-
| [[Christian Tessier]]
| [[Tucker Clellan|Tucker "Duck" Clellan]]
| 1
| 2
| 3
|
|
| 6
|
|
|
| 10
|}

I think that way we keep the references in the order they appeared and create a kind of Timeline for the entire Webisode. And no more confusion. What do you think? --[[User:Karoshi|Karōshi]] 14:17, 18 September 2006 (CDT)
:Agreed. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 14:28, 18 September 2006 (CDT)
:Agreed. Good idea. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:48, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Battlestar Galactica: The Resistance/Archive 1

2006-09-14T23:42:36Z

Mateo: question

I think the Webisodes are a great idea that may expand the BSG Audience. Anyway, I can hope. --[[User:Gougef|gougef]] 22:07, 27 May 2006 (CDT)

I really, REALLY dont like the idea of this. 'Caprica' was bad enough (but i'll begrudgingly watch it anyway cause you kinda have to) but the idea of filler really, REALLY sucks - why oh why cant RDM and Eick just put the events of whats happened into one/two/three regular episodes rather than put these up? No doubt there'll be wonderful nuggegts of info put into these eps, and references made to them in normal eps that people wont get unless they watch these little 'things'. Ron - if you're reading this - you're getting WAY too ahead of yourself - keep to writing BSG itself first, no fancy pants crap, drop Caprica cause its a dumb idea and focus on what people want more of - BSG itself, not a spinoff, not webisodes - JUST BSG!!! </rant> Grr! --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 03:47, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
:Actually it might work really well, they did a similar thing with Richard E Grant voicing Doctor Who a few years back on the BBC website --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 06:38, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
: The BBC is also doing the ''Doctor Who Confidential'' series in tandem with the new ''Doctor Who'', as well as the mini ''Tardisodes'' that you can get from BBC's site. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:41, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
::I know the Tardisodes are available - but for those of us without broadband (i will be sans broadband for a long time in the next month or so), web episodes arent a good idea. There are going to be plenty of people that dont want to be forced into watching something online, and with the Tardisodes that the BBC put up, they're totally self contained AFAIK, with no references made to them from other episodes, and they're non-important in terms of the overall storyline of DW, as well as being able to be viewed on the Digibox (digital terrestrial DVB-T or Digital Satellite set top box) by pressing 'the big red button'. BSG on the other hand, they're talking about a major part of the backstory which is hardly what i'd call trivial! Are they going to air the episodes on telly for those countries outside the US or will they just assume everyone has fast broadband and dont watch telly? --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 13:07, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

:: This is the future of TV within 2-3 years most if not all tv shows will have some online content similar to the webisodes. --[[User:Gougef|gougef]] 12:14, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

:::I just cant see why its necessary to split up a show into loads of different segments, have some aired on telly, some on the net - it just makes everything that more annoying - why oh *why* can't TV execs just get the idea into their thick skulls that people are happy watching telly AS IT IS!!! --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 13:30, 19 June 2006 (CDT)

:::: My guess is that it is a business decision. You can show an advertiser exactly how many viewers. Also, you get more opportunities to advertise per viewer. Due to the web, DVR's, etc., I don't see the current TV business model surviving.--[[User:Gougef|gougef]] 13:46, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

I have the feeling that the episode "Unfinished Business" will be a clip show of the webisodes, Just a guess. --[[User:Gougef|gougef]] 12:14, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

:No, they showed that it's different stuff: "Unfinished Business" deals with stuff *before* the Cylons came, the webisodes deal with stuff after that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:52, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
::Great more BSG content :D!! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:52, 18 July 2006 (CDT)

:I do hope that these get aired on telly, i really, really do :'( --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 13:29, 19 June 2006 (CDT)

:This is not a bad idea at all. It's like a side project. Something that more than likely will have no tie-in to the regular series. Otherwise, why not call them teasers instead of webisodes? It's not featuring any of the main cast as far as we have been told. All the more interesting. My only regret about it is it will be something only accessed on Galactica's SciFi site, and not available on iTunes.--[[User:AJFederation|AJFederation]] 01:41, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

==Add into Episode Guide template==

Right now, Season 2 ends and proceeds to Season 3 in the template at the bottom of the screen: where's the page where I can add this webisode series into the succession?: I think it should be put at the beginning of Season 3 (or at least, after LDYB II clicking "next" would lead here, not season 3 proper). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:13, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

In addition, I think the format of this page should be that of any one episode in the episode guide; that is, there won't be separate subpages linked for each of the 10 webisodes: ***Bradley Thompson, who co-wrote these, said he considers it one story, just broken up into 10 chunks, which I think is just like how a normal episode is broken up by commercial breaks. This really isn't a separate series, so much as a "special episode". It's not a separate series, but part of the series between Seasons 2 and 3 (we asked Thompson how we should consider it with that; waiting on answer). --->Originally I had thought this would be a parent series page that had episodes linked from it, but based on Thompson's comments it makes more sense just to put it in an episode format. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:44, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

==September Debut==

An BSG article in the October issue of SciFi Magazine says the Webisodes will start in September. Whether the WGA actions will affect this or not is unknown. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:21, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
:The WGA announcement was this Wednesday. I do know they were originally planned to be aired for 10 weeks (one each week) before the season premiere...in which case they would already have started two weeks ago. I think there was foot dragging where they hoped to ''vaguely'' "have them out in September or something" but that this broke down. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:24, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
:: The mag probably went to print assuming that everything will be ok, but it's not?? No word from Bradley yet?--[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:28, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
:::Nothing. I'd make a big deal about it if there was. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:36, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
::::I was just hoping for tidbit of the webisodes by now to feed my raging beast ;-). Thanks for being on top of it--[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:40, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
I'm confused about the last paragraph of the Contract Disputes... section. We say "several weeks" later from August, the tapes were handed over. (I assume that means at least 3 weeks.) The WGA/NBCU dispute became public on Aug. 12 and the NLRB greviance was filed on the 18th. It doesn't seem that three weeks have passed. Can that be clarified? Also, what changed or broke the stalemate? There has been nothing announced in Variety or elsewhere, at least in regard to The Office. How can the BSG producers turn over tapes without getting in trouble with the writers guild, of which Moore and Eick are presumably members. Can anyone explain?--[[User:Elach|Elach]] 13:42, 28 August 2006 (CDT)

== "Image" ==

When we do a picture for the Episode Data block and this is all done, we should take all 10 of the images and put them in a pattern so it would be a mossic image. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 20:39, 2 September 2006 (CDT)

:I like your idea, and I suggest 2 wide by 5 tall, as it must be either 1x10 or 2x5 (barring tomfoolery), and 5x2 would have unfortunate aspect ratio consequences. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:20, 3 September 2006 (CDT)

== Connectivity?!? ==

Is anyone else having problems watching the webisodes?
I've waited all this time for them to air and I can't watch a single one!

How shady is that?

Do Sci-Fi.com have availbility problems regarding this, and how hong is it going to take to fix?

Does anyone know if they are going to be released in any other format other than webisode? --Jetstorm316
:I just watched it not 20 minutes ago and it worked. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 05:32, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::You need the latest Flash player. You can get it from the Marrocmedia Website. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 08:42, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::Any way to watch it if not from America? Wont let me watch here in the UK :( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:21, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::::Tried several US proxies and it just wont load. can someone save it and upload to google video or youtube or summit? :( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:40, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::::This is bending the policy,but it is on you-tube (Watch this morning because it works better than the official site at lower speeds). Should be a link on skiffy board somewhere. Or gtalk or gmail me and I will find the link. gougef at gmail dot com. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 11:44, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::::::Well said, Frankie. No hosting or linking to "illegal" copies... but like he said there's youtube links at sciffy (even though the admins appear to be trying to delete them). And the "flash player" official version was choppy even with ultra-broadband. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:00, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::::::Thanks for your help anyway guys. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:13, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Does any one have the link for the you tube version? My Flash player is upto date, but can't watch here in the UK........

Must be a Trans-Atlantic thing or something, but I hope they put it on 3.0 to compensate for people who are missing out.--Jetstorm316 19:12GMT 5 september 2006

EUREKA! Success at last! If you have a torrent client, go to this link,
<<removed link>>
Now, we can all watch it at our leasure --jetstorm316 19:34hrs GMT
:We don't host or link copies. Removed. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 13:18, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:Please do not link to the webisodes or clips of BSG on this Wiki that are copyrighted. Thank you --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 13:21, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

And thats the thanks I get for helping us all out who have connectivity problems? You know what, F*** the lot of you! I won't visit this site again!

This is the last entry for Jetstorm316

Goodbye and good F***ing luck to you bunch of F***ing losers!
:Please do not feel offended by up removing the link you posted. As i mentioned on your talk page It was nice of you to think of others but we dont want to get into any copyright issues with the producers. I hope you re-think your decision about leaving as your other contributions in the talk pages have been great --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 13:49, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::what Mercifull said. Personally, it was hard to get use to posting here after being involve with other online forums and communities. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 13:59, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::It's easy for me 'cause on other forums I don't link to that kinda junk anyway. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:51, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

'''Obviously''' there is more than a little frustration over not being able to connect outside the US. I'm not sure about the UK and other countries, but I do know that Canada's Space Channel has bought the show to broadcast on pretty much the same dates as in the US. This makes the fact that we Canadians(and anyone else who is going to see the show boadcast legally on television on October outside the US) would really benefit from being able to access the webisodes...we will watch the premier on Space, just like everyone else, except we are forced to result to illegal means to see the webisodes. I know this is a novelty, and perhaps the websiode content won't greatly affect the regularly aired shows, but really, I truly feel that this is a bad mistake on SciFi's behalf...and maybe even on Canada's Space Channel's Behalf for not seeking to host the webisodes on their Canadian site. It'll be something that they can claim as "EXTRA SPECIAL" on the DVD releases perhaps..but I think that once that is done, it becomes "bonus material" for the DVD and no longer the exciting and unique experience of participating with everyone else, waiting expectantly for the next five minute morsel to whet our appetites for the coming season...instead we have to lurk around in the dark and worry that maybe YOUTUBE is going to cut us off. We are fans and we all want the same great experience.

Maybe this isn't the place to debate...but I think I'll be writing both SciFi and SPACE to see how they can make a better, more rounded fan experience for an evidently GLOBAL audience.
--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:31, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

==Cast & Crew announced==
Now that Ron Moore has [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/ announced] the full cast and crew listing of the webisodes, it may be better to have a crew section and a cast section instead of listing the cast under each of the ten recaps. --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 21:17, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
:Agree, but we should make when we saw each cast memeber. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:29, 6 September 2006 (CDT)

== Sister Tivenan ==
I'd imagine the pirestess I didn't recognize in webisode 2 was the Sister Tivenan in those credits by elimination. That does not leave me quite comfortable with claiming her as identified. I didn't find a Tivenan by search here, so I'd assume she's a new character. I solicit opinions. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:54, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
:She appears to be a completely new character.--[[User:Larocque6689|Larocque6689]] 06:58, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

== Doral/Number Five ==

It seems like such a trivial thing to bring up, but I notice that the Wiki credits (anticipating his future appearance) now refer to Matthew Bennett's role as [[Number Five]] even though Ron's blog specifically refers to his role as [[Doral]] and that he is referred to as a Doral model in several episodes (including "[[Litmus]]".) Rather than revert it back, I'll just note the change and leave it up here as something to resolve until he makes his webisode debut.--[[User:Larocque6689|Larocque6689]] 07:04, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
:There are many Fives but only one Aaron Doral, and there's no indication that it's him. RDM refers to models other than Sixes as "D'annas", "Dorals", "Sharons" etc. for simplicity's sake. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 07:58, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

==Episode 3?==

So, uh, where the heck's Episode 3? It's not up! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 11:11, 12 September 2006 (CDT)
:Whoops, never mind. Episode 3 went up at 12 ''PM'' eastern as opposed to 12 ''AM'' Eastern. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 11:13, 12 September 2006 (CDT)
::Yeah. :) I just finshed watching it. It was ok. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 11:15, 12 September 2006 (CDT)
:::My silly school blocks streaming video :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 11:16, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

==Official Sources==
Thinking about moving the contract dispute stuff down the page into an Official Sources section. I find it distracting where it is. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:51, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

==Webisodes links==

Is it okay to add links to the webisodes? I searched the source of the article but didn't see any. What about removing the comments of Jetstorm316 above, or for that matter how about all the comments that folks made without reading the webisodes FAQ which is linked to on all the webisode pages? [[User:Eghm|Eghm]] 16:41, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
: What kind of links are we talking about here? Are we talking about the official Scifi.com links? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:05, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
:: Yes, such as /battlestar/video/webisodes/01/ (with the scifi dot com added to the front of course). [[User:Eghm|Eghm]] 17:35, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
:::Done. thanks for noticing that frakup. Also, the removed contents of Jetstorm was link(s) to "unofficial" copies. Can't link directly to FAQ because it is java popup from SciFi.com. May post relevant part to official statements. Thanks again. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:00, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

==Why one page?==
Why not have seperate pages for each webisode? Even the TVIV has seperate pages for each webisode. That's pretty embarrassing that the battlestarwiki has inferior coverage of something Battlestar related. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 18:42, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-09-14T23:39:27Z

Mateo: /* Split */

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

'''I am not attacking you personally'''. I am pointing out legitimate concerns.

#"''I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them''"--->This isn't acknowledging anything, and that's not even what you did: you continued to complain about "we need to cite such and such", even after we inserted citations, etc. etc.
#"''We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM ''"--->I still have no idea what this "second" thing is you are talking about. Please elaborate. I am honestly confused.
#By us having to direct you to this Discussion page, and me even having to go "I will bring this up in a discussion page for the article, it's place is not a personal rant on another page", that I had to do this and we had to explain it to you, showed if you do know how to use wikis you were being confusing about it, and either way not trying to go about the ''process'' of using a Wiki through discussion with other users.
#"''Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise.''" Define "irony"
#Mateo in the "over a year" you've been on wikis, you've basically done only 2 things on BSWiki: argued the semantics of a "Sequel" vs a "prequel", and the current demand that this page be destroyed. I'm not berating you for not using BSWIki alot; we get many newcomers who are not avid about it. What is straining the ''decorum'' is that you are now describing the many flaws in articles you didn't even talk about in Discussion. By your own words, you are a "Stranger" here. I'd be happier if you worked to really helping out here and being a part of stuff.
#Yes, I proved my case. At this point you're just lashing out at everyone who is disagreeing with you when you could be trying to work with us. Homer Simpson: "''I'm'' not pouting....''you're'' pouting!"
#I put the matter to a definative vote so this doesn't drag on forever. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:45, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Responses to above:

#Well, if I missed something by a few minutes then sorry. I acknowlege that I am happy with the removal of "contact with other cylons". I've moved on from that. I'm now talking specifically about that Cylons can not have children.
#We were talking about both the 2nd qualification and whether rankings can exist in general. Talking about two things at once creates confusion (now we are discussing about 20 things, so it's even more confusing). We don't need to continue talking about this, it's unimportant.
#The other discussion page was on the state of the wiki. You, for some reason, thought that I shouldn't talk about specific articles on that page. Whatever, so I moved over here with you. That doesn't mean I don't know how wikis work just because you disagree with where I talk about certain things. Why are we even talking about this? What does this have to do with the article? '''This isn't about me or you''', it's about the article. This is called "ad hominem", attacking the person.
#This type of thing is complete unnecessary. It doesn't help resolve disagreements.
#I didn't demand that this page be destroyed. My problem was that the ranking system seemed to favor certain POVs (and I turned out to be right, which is why I think you're so angry right now). I suggested changing it around to make it NPOV. You've invented this "destroy the article" stuff in your mind.
#No, you haven't proven that anything a cylon says to a human is true. I am not lashing out at '''anyone'''. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Look at your last two posts which were nothing more than insults against me. I have insulted '''no one''', I have only pointed out when POVs are being ignored.
#That vote isn't related to this matter, as I never suggested deleting the article in the first place. My suggestions have all been to remove POV content. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:Is the "ranking" really that valuable? I can see the utility in pointing out characters that cannot possibly being Cylons due to canon references, but as for the remaining ones... they '''might''' be Cylons. One person's "moderate" might be another person's "high" or "low". All we should do is present the facts as they've appeared in the series and let the reader decide for themselves. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::Agreed! I've been saying this for a while, a ranking system cannot possibly be neutral. There are fundamentally assumptions made (such as demonstrated above, the assumption that cylons are telling the truth when talking to humans). It should be up to individuals, no the BSwiki, to decide what they believe. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
It still needs to be moved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:12, 24 August 2006 (CDT)

It ''still'' needs to be moved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:05, 6 September 2006 (CDT)

:To be honest, I'd rather see Baltar moved to "no possibility." --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:13, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
::Good. I agree. I pushed for Anders to low because I thought it would be easier to achieve. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:40, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

==Vote==

I put forward the proposal (which I do not support) that we yank all of the "chances of being a Cylon" stuff, as well as anything not stated directly on screen or by RDM, removing all Analysis on our part.

'''Support'''

'''Oppose'''
#{{Oppose}} - There's nothing truly wrong with this well-researched Analysis article. As far as Analysis allows, it is Not POV. Any minor concerns with it can and were easily fixed by simple editing and discussion, and there's nothing wrong with summaryizing who has more evidence against them and who has relatively little.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
'''Comment'''
* I don't think anybody (including Mateo) is in favor of this. I think you realize that, though. Should this "vote" continue to take up space if it really isn't anything that anybody is even suggesting? If anything I think most of Mateo's objections would be resolved by simply yanking the "Chances of being a Cylon" rating and headers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
** Point taken, I'll revise that...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:12, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

* You can't properly hold a single vote on 2 seperate issues (rankings and analysis). Some people might be in favor of one but not the other. Such as me. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:15, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
**I agree. Following SV's advise, this is just for the rankings. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
***The proposal says for removing rankings and analysis. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:18, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

== Possible resolution to POV dispute ==

Instead of scraping the article altogether, it could be possible to set up seperate pages for different theories. For example, currently this page supports an axiomatic assumption that things cylons say to humans are true, absent evience against it. You could set up a page that operates off of that assumption. You can then set up a seperate page for a different assumptions, for example my opinion that anything cylons say to humans can not be trusted. And so on. That way no one's POV is excluded and we can still have speculation based on the various theories. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:That's needlessly elaborate, and '''BattlestarWiki is not a messageboard'''. ---->I have already put it to vote. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:35, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide an alternative that doesn't exclude some POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:38, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::There ''are'' no POV violations. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::This article supports the POV that cylons are telling the truth to humans. POVs which contradict this assumption are excluded, currently. I'm trying to find a way to fix this, this suggestion is the best I can come up with so far. If you have other suggestions, I would like to hear them. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:01, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::Could everybody quit using the POV and NPOV terms? I think they are just confusing the issue. Couldn't we just report all the "facts" that are presented in canon and let the reader draw their conclusions? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:49, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I agree that this is probably the best path. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:02, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::Mateo I am sorry that this may have caused tension; A) I don't think there's a problem with rankings, just saying "this person has a lot of evidence against them and little alibi: High probability"...much less, people like Adama who we've actually ruled out. I hope the rankings represent a blurring rather than rigid structure (i.e. Low to Moderate) B) There isn't much fundamentally wrong with this page itself, it's for Analysis. While we could debate the rankings thing, on having Analysis at all I really think that's just the nature of the thing. C) '''We've got bigger fish to fry than our own petty squabbles, fellow BSG Fan: I've just heard shocking news that due to an NBC/Writer's Guild of America fight, the BSG Webisodes have been postponed indefinately. Quickly, to the webisdoes article!'''...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::While there's definitely merit in well-researched analysis, I think it's important that we should distinguish our "analysis" content from our "encyclopedic" content. Maybe there could be an encyclopedic version of this page that's just the facts (ma'am), then an "analysis version" (in an analysis namespace) that would be as it is now? If another fan wants to research the same problems under different assumptions, they could start a different analysis article, and use the encyclopedic article as ammunition (but operating under their alternative assumptions). And... damnit. That's why they haven't been released. I wondered if something was up (since they should have been out by now otherwise). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:41, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::Perhaps we could use a Template at the top clearly saying this is an Analysis page?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:31, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::This article ''does'' have "speculation" in the title. I think that suffices. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

My concern is the relationship between Qualifiers and Rankings. Rankings are based on Qualifiers. Qualifiers are based on Assumptions. So if a person has different assumptions, their rankings will be different. Assumptions are [[wikipedia:axiomatic|axiomatic]]. The difference between this Analysis and Anaylsis on episode pages is that the analysis on episode pages is not axiomatic: it doesn't make definitive statements that then influence the rest of the article. This one does. I still would like to resolve this. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:36, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:I think that lays it out more clearly: Rankings are based on Qualifiers. (Going in reverse order): I think the Qualifiers are fine, and the Rankings a logical easy to read summation of their net result. If you don't like the Qualifiers, I can see why you are against the Rankings (as they are based on them).--------->Our Qualifiers are not based on "Assumptions". "Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people" is not an assumption at all, "Cylons probably started infiltrating Colonial society ''en masse'' 2 years ago so someone who's been aronud 20 years can't be a Cylon" is ''Analysis''; a point based on evidence, not "assumption", and Caprica-Sharon's long scene explaining how Cylons themselves are sterile, was presented as fact and fits into place with all other Cylon activities. No, we will not remove Caprica-Sharon's statement from the Qualifiers, as it was presented as really fact and as Joe said above, to doubt everything verges on paranoia. It's a Hypothesis: any good scientific hypothesis bases itself on evidence which is trusted until disproven. I.e. we still call Evolution technically a "theory" but it's based on solid evidence and speculation based on that, analysis, but not wild "Assumptions" of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. With reference to that specific point, we aren't removing the Cylon sterility thing as a qualifier.--->Qualifiersare not based on "Assumptions"; most of this is tentative (save for those people we've ruled out for several reasons), under the "well I wasn't there and didn't ''see'' homo erectus turn into Cro Magnons, but I can pretty well piece together the evidence so I'm not doubting it" train of thought.---->'''Thank you''' for still wanting to resolve this. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:42, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::"It was presented as fact". What does that even mean? A cylon made claims of fact to humans. Saying that this is "evidence" makes the assumption that she is telling the truth. That's a POV, '''by definition'''. There's no dancing around this. This article is extremely POV and you are stiff-arming any attempt to make it encompass more than just your own personal POV. The fact that you say "No, we will not remove Caprica-Sharon's statement from the Qualifiers" shows that you don't want to resolve this and that, in fact, you feel you have more power here than everyone else (you don't).

::There are really only 2 possible ways to make this article neutral: remove all POV qualifiers '''or''' make this a page of facts and then splinter pages for different POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:18, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::: Having thought about this, I think the best measure would be to cover all possible POV on this. One POV for those who believe Sharon telling the truth and those who believe Sharon's not. Further thoughts, concerns, suggestions? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:31, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

:::: I think it's best to break into different pages. I just edited the page and it said it was 33kb and that 32kb was the suggested limit. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:34, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::Editting by section avoids this and constrains your changes to make edit histories more readable, even without comments. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 22:33, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::32kb is the suggested limit for pages due to technical issues with older web browsers, such as IE5 and NS4, if I recall correctly. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:06, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::Think about this article in the long-term encyclopedic view. If the series continues to a logical end, the contents of the page maybe (and likely) rendered moot. I don't if investing a lot of time picking over it is worth it. Anecdotely, I have cited this article a lot on boards, and the arguments have been analysed by non-wiki users and seem to be acceptable. Plus, it has received several complements. One solution maybe the disputed discussion [[Naturalistic science fiction]]. I like that because it forces the "disputer" to put forth logical arguments (and work) to make his/her point. Personally, I think that this is one of best "analytic" articles on the wiki. Just my 2 cubits. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:25, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::TNS is wildly successful by SciFi's standards; it'll be around more than long enough to keep this article moot [http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/m/m0415900.html in the original sense] for quite a while. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:28, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::I was referring to the second meaning of moot (obsolete), because we would know all the agents, especially if the series is able to continue to it's logical event. However, it is possibly we won't. After all my pontificating, I still see nothing wrong with the article. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 05:42, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I just meant that point is likely a long way off. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 09:15, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Ok, I am going to try and build these pages. What about titles though? We need names for the theories. I was thinking of [[Cylon agent speculation (extermination theory)]] for the theory that cylons only goal is the extermination of humans (and therefore their words can't be trusted). Not sure what to call the theory that this page currently supports. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:56, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

: [[Cylon agent speculation (procreation theory)]] would probably be apt. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 14:41, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

== Jammer in the webisodes ==

I disagree with the analysis of the webisodes presented on this page. Jammer was not advocating the Cylon agenda; he was baiting Duck to find out if he was a potential recruit. Jammer's reaction to Tigh's plan to hide arms in the temple is interesting, but hardly damning. Tyrol's oft-repeated line in the season three trailer ("some things you don't do, colonel, even in war") suggests the question of acceptable or unacceptable tactics will be part of the first few episodes of the next season. The scene in the temple might just be a setup for exploring that distinction. There are ten webisodes to go, and attempting to discern Jammer's motives at this point (with the story unfinished) might be a little premature. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 00:26, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
:I think the analysis of the webisodes is inline with the rest of the analysis. It inherently takes a paranoid approach, as most of the entries are meant to convince people someone isn't a Cylon. I certainly consider his behavior in the webisodes suspicious (more the second), particularly in comparision to the "roll the hard six" thing.
:As to leaving it off until The Resistance is finished, I feel that the text is likely to end up more polished if it's incremented and reviewed after each segment. In any case, it seems best to work with all canon material available at any given point. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:46, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

==The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings citation==
First off, '''Summary is not the talk page'''. It is '''not''' a place to discuss previous edits. It is a summary of what '''you''' changed about the page. Not why you think a previous change is invalid. '''That is what the talk page is for'''.

Secondly, simply naming an episode where a supposed reveal takes place is '''not''' a citation. Giving lines of dialogue '''or''' paraphrasing dialogue that takes place, is a citation. The reason I want it to be this specific is because if you are not specific, people can claim cited facts when in fact they are not facts; just someone's interpretation of events. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 10:09, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:'''Starbuck:''' So farms, that’s great. What were they gonna do? Knock me up with some Cylon kid?
:'''Sharon:''' They were gonna try to. We haven’t been successful so far.
:'''Anders:''' Supposedly they can’t reproduce. You know biologically. So they have been trying every which way to produce offspring.
:I think that's the relevent dialogue. Not sure how you want that incorporated... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:31, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::I'll add it, thanks. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:41, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::Mateo, having a link to "[[The Farm]]" is a [[BW:CJ|valid citation]], because this is where the information is revealed. Also, the pertinent quote that Steelviper posted on this talk page is listed on "The Farm"'s episode guide under "Noteworthy Dialogue", albeit in a much longer form. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:34, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:::It's not valid because a person would have to watch the entire episode to verify it. This is the equivalent of giving a book reference and just saying what book made the claim, without listing page numbers. Turn that into your professor and you're getting a failing grade. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:41, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::::While I see where you're coming from, wikis work differently than mere term papers. All one needs to do is click the link and find the pertinent information on "[[The Farm]]"'s page, which is why it's a valid wiki citation. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:45, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::One shouldn't have to read an entire article, '''not even knowing exactly what you are looking for''', to verify a claim. Besides, that breaks the citation rules of self-referencing. The person making the claim of fact has to do the work, not the person who wants to check the fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:56, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
::::::The dialog would help, but we might also want to include timestamps. I just fixed up the {{tl|cite episode}} template to include it. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:09, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
::::::Linking to the episode guide entry on "The Farm" isn't a self reference... seeing as the pertinent quote is listed on that page (and we could even grab an audio capture of the quote in question). (We may also have to better define what a "self reference" is and what one isn't?) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:36, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
:::::::The quote wasn't cited, in any way, on the page. So a person who tried to verify the citation ''wouldn't even know to look for a quote''. They weren't told that it came from a quote in the episode. For all they know, it could simply come out of the "feel" of the episode. That's why it's important to be very specific in citations, it's the only way to judge if the citation fits the claim of fact. It removes subjectivity; either the citation fits the claim or not. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 18:35, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::::It's valid as a matter of policy ([[BW:CJ]]); discuss it on the policy's talk page if you want it changed, though, to be frank, I doubt many will agree with you, as practicality argues weightily against your position. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 16:21, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::That page doesn't say anything about how specific you have to be when citing episode content. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 18:35, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::I think that may set a bad precedent. If will start having to "cite" aired content that is already generally and reasonably accepted, the wiki will mostly be cites. Also, isn't the discussion page for clearing up most stuff like this? And CA is right, if there is a problem with the policy, take it to [[BW:CJ]]. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:39, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::::::Using the talk page is bad because then you will have to go over the same dispute every time someone different recognizes it. As it stands, you only need to cite controversial claims. Whenever speculation is involved, citations are necessary. There is a thin line between someone's interpretation of an event and what the simple facts are. People, by nature, '''think that their interpretation is obviously correct'''. They have a hard time recognizing POV (see above discussion with The Merovingian, who couldn't realize that his interpretations were POV, not fact). So making vague "this happened in X episode" citations makes it extremely difficult to verify that it is a simple fact and not POV interpretation. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 18:35, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:I was summarizing what I changed and the reasoning behind it. You are likely referring to my parenthetical justification; I typically include such any time my edit is not obvious in intent and reasoning, particularly with reversions and partial reversions. 'An edit summary should strive to answer the question, "Why did you make this edit?".' is the first sentence of [[Wikipedia:Help:Edit summary]], so I believe such usage to be solidly in line with wiki norms. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 16:21, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::Just because it is normal doesn't mean it is correct. Summaries are for '''summarizing'''. Not communicating with previous editors. That is what the talk page is for. You specifically refered to me in your summary. That's not what summaries are for; they are for descriptions of the changes you made are, irrespective of what a previous person's changes were. You even gave me instructions to use the talk page. You should have posted your reasons for not liking my previous edit on the talk page. That's what it's for, use it. Not the summaries. That causes warring. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 18:35, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

== Split ==

I would like to see this page split up into three different pages based on the sections that we have and setup a "table" for linking to the split up pages, but still have an overall summary on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:20, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
: Good idea Shane. Sort of like the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)]] series. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 14:38, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
::yeah. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 14:39, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

The problem is that this already needs to be split up by different POVs. So if you are going to split it up, you need to give each splinter page specific theory names. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 18:39, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-09-14T23:35:31Z

Mateo: /* The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings citation */

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-09-14T16:56:36Z

Mateo: question

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

'''I am not attacking you personally'''. I am pointing out legitimate concerns.

#"''I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them''"--->This isn't acknowledging anything, and that's not even what you did: you continued to complain about "we need to cite such and such", even after we inserted citations, etc. etc.
#"''We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM ''"--->I still have no idea what this "second" thing is you are talking about. Please elaborate. I am honestly confused.
#By us having to direct you to this Discussion page, and me even having to go "I will bring this up in a discussion page for the article, it's place is not a personal rant on another page", that I had to do this and we had to explain it to you, showed if you do know how to use wikis you were being confusing about it, and either way not trying to go about the ''process'' of using a Wiki through discussion with other users.
#"''Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise.''" Define "irony"
#Mateo in the "over a year" you've been on wikis, you've basically done only 2 things on BSWiki: argued the semantics of a "Sequel" vs a "prequel", and the current demand that this page be destroyed. I'm not berating you for not using BSWIki alot; we get many newcomers who are not avid about it. What is straining the ''decorum'' is that you are now describing the many flaws in articles you didn't even talk about in Discussion. By your own words, you are a "Stranger" here. I'd be happier if you worked to really helping out here and being a part of stuff.
#Yes, I proved my case. At this point you're just lashing out at everyone who is disagreeing with you when you could be trying to work with us. Homer Simpson: "''I'm'' not pouting....''you're'' pouting!"
#I put the matter to a definative vote so this doesn't drag on forever. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:45, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Responses to above:

#Well, if I missed something by a few minutes then sorry. I acknowlege that I am happy with the removal of "contact with other cylons". I've moved on from that. I'm now talking specifically about that Cylons can not have children.
#We were talking about both the 2nd qualification and whether rankings can exist in general. Talking about two things at once creates confusion (now we are discussing about 20 things, so it's even more confusing). We don't need to continue talking about this, it's unimportant.
#The other discussion page was on the state of the wiki. You, for some reason, thought that I shouldn't talk about specific articles on that page. Whatever, so I moved over here with you. That doesn't mean I don't know how wikis work just because you disagree with where I talk about certain things. Why are we even talking about this? What does this have to do with the article? '''This isn't about me or you''', it's about the article. This is called "ad hominem", attacking the person.
#This type of thing is complete unnecessary. It doesn't help resolve disagreements.
#I didn't demand that this page be destroyed. My problem was that the ranking system seemed to favor certain POVs (and I turned out to be right, which is why I think you're so angry right now). I suggested changing it around to make it NPOV. You've invented this "destroy the article" stuff in your mind.
#No, you haven't proven that anything a cylon says to a human is true. I am not lashing out at '''anyone'''. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Look at your last two posts which were nothing more than insults against me. I have insulted '''no one''', I have only pointed out when POVs are being ignored.
#That vote isn't related to this matter, as I never suggested deleting the article in the first place. My suggestions have all been to remove POV content. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:Is the "ranking" really that valuable? I can see the utility in pointing out characters that cannot possibly being Cylons due to canon references, but as for the remaining ones... they '''might''' be Cylons. One person's "moderate" might be another person's "high" or "low". All we should do is present the facts as they've appeared in the series and let the reader decide for themselves. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::Agreed! I've been saying this for a while, a ranking system cannot possibly be neutral. There are fundamentally assumptions made (such as demonstrated above, the assumption that cylons are telling the truth when talking to humans). It should be up to individuals, no the BSwiki, to decide what they believe. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
It still needs to be moved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:12, 24 August 2006 (CDT)

It ''still'' needs to be moved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:05, 6 September 2006 (CDT)

:To be honest, I'd rather see Baltar moved to "no possibility." --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:13, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

==Vote==

I put forward the proposal (which I do not support) that we yank all of the "chances of being a Cylon" stuff, as well as anything not stated directly on screen or by RDM, removing all Analysis on our part.

'''Support'''

'''Oppose'''
#{{Oppose}} - There's nothing truly wrong with this well-researched Analysis article. As far as Analysis allows, it is Not POV. Any minor concerns with it can and were easily fixed by simple editing and discussion, and there's nothing wrong with summaryizing who has more evidence against them and who has relatively little.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
'''Comment'''
* I don't think anybody (including Mateo) is in favor of this. I think you realize that, though. Should this "vote" continue to take up space if it really isn't anything that anybody is even suggesting? If anything I think most of Mateo's objections would be resolved by simply yanking the "Chances of being a Cylon" rating and headers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
** Point taken, I'll revise that...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:12, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

* You can't properly hold a single vote on 2 seperate issues (rankings and analysis). Some people might be in favor of one but not the other. Such as me. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:15, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
**I agree. Following SV's advise, this is just for the rankings. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
***The proposal says for removing rankings and analysis. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:18, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

== Possible resolution to POV dispute ==

Instead of scraping the article altogether, it could be possible to set up seperate pages for different theories. For example, currently this page supports an axiomatic assumption that things cylons say to humans are true, absent evience against it. You could set up a page that operates off of that assumption. You can then set up a seperate page for a different assumptions, for example my opinion that anything cylons say to humans can not be trusted. And so on. That way no one's POV is excluded and we can still have speculation based on the various theories. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:That's needlessly elaborate, and '''BattlestarWiki is not a messageboard'''. ---->I have already put it to vote. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:35, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide an alternative that doesn't exclude some POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:38, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::There ''are'' no POV violations. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::This article supports the POV that cylons are telling the truth to humans. POVs which contradict this assumption are excluded, currently. I'm trying to find a way to fix this, this suggestion is the best I can come up with so far. If you have other suggestions, I would like to hear them. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:01, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::Could everybody quit using the POV and NPOV terms? I think they are just confusing the issue. Couldn't we just report all the "facts" that are presented in canon and let the reader draw their conclusions? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:49, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I agree that this is probably the best path. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:02, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::Mateo I am sorry that this may have caused tension; A) I don't think there's a problem with rankings, just saying "this person has a lot of evidence against them and little alibi: High probability"...much less, people like Adama who we've actually ruled out. I hope the rankings represent a blurring rather than rigid structure (i.e. Low to Moderate) B) There isn't much fundamentally wrong with this page itself, it's for Analysis. While we could debate the rankings thing, on having Analysis at all I really think that's just the nature of the thing. C) '''We've got bigger fish to fry than our own petty squabbles, fellow BSG Fan: I've just heard shocking news that due to an NBC/Writer's Guild of America fight, the BSG Webisodes have been postponed indefinately. Quickly, to the webisdoes article!'''...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::While there's definitely merit in well-researched analysis, I think it's important that we should distinguish our "analysis" content from our "encyclopedic" content. Maybe there could be an encyclopedic version of this page that's just the facts (ma'am), then an "analysis version" (in an analysis namespace) that would be as it is now? If another fan wants to research the same problems under different assumptions, they could start a different analysis article, and use the encyclopedic article as ammunition (but operating under their alternative assumptions). And... damnit. That's why they haven't been released. I wondered if something was up (since they should have been out by now otherwise). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:41, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::Perhaps we could use a Template at the top clearly saying this is an Analysis page?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:31, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::This article ''does'' have "speculation" in the title. I think that suffices. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

My concern is the relationship between Qualifiers and Rankings. Rankings are based on Qualifiers. Qualifiers are based on Assumptions. So if a person has different assumptions, their rankings will be different. Assumptions are [[wikipedia:axiomatic|axiomatic]]. The difference between this Analysis and Anaylsis on episode pages is that the analysis on episode pages is not axiomatic: it doesn't make definitive statements that then influence the rest of the article. This one does. I still would like to resolve this. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:36, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:I think that lays it out more clearly: Rankings are based on Qualifiers. (Going in reverse order): I think the Qualifiers are fine, and the Rankings a logical easy to read summation of their net result. If you don't like the Qualifiers, I can see why you are against the Rankings (as they are based on them).--------->Our Qualifiers are not based on "Assumptions". "Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people" is not an assumption at all, "Cylons probably started infiltrating Colonial society ''en masse'' 2 years ago so someone who's been aronud 20 years can't be a Cylon" is ''Analysis''; a point based on evidence, not "assumption", and Caprica-Sharon's long scene explaining how Cylons themselves are sterile, was presented as fact and fits into place with all other Cylon activities. No, we will not remove Caprica-Sharon's statement from the Qualifiers, as it was presented as really fact and as Joe said above, to doubt everything verges on paranoia. It's a Hypothesis: any good scientific hypothesis bases itself on evidence which is trusted until disproven. I.e. we still call Evolution technically a "theory" but it's based on solid evidence and speculation based on that, analysis, but not wild "Assumptions" of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. With reference to that specific point, we aren't removing the Cylon sterility thing as a qualifier.--->Qualifiersare not based on "Assumptions"; most of this is tentative (save for those people we've ruled out for several reasons), under the "well I wasn't there and didn't ''see'' homo erectus turn into Cro Magnons, but I can pretty well piece together the evidence so I'm not doubting it" train of thought.---->'''Thank you''' for still wanting to resolve this. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:42, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::"It was presented as fact". What does that even mean? A cylon made claims of fact to humans. Saying that this is "evidence" makes the assumption that she is telling the truth. That's a POV, '''by definition'''. There's no dancing around this. This article is extremely POV and you are stiff-arming any attempt to make it encompass more than just your own personal POV. The fact that you say "No, we will not remove Caprica-Sharon's statement from the Qualifiers" shows that you don't want to resolve this and that, in fact, you feel you have more power here than everyone else (you don't).

::There are really only 2 possible ways to make this article neutral: remove all POV qualifiers '''or''' make this a page of facts and then splinter pages for different POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:18, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::: Having thought about this, I think the best measure would be to cover all possible POV on this. One POV for those who believe Sharon telling the truth and those who believe Sharon's not. Further thoughts, concerns, suggestions? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:31, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

:::: I think it's best to break into different pages. I just edited the page and it said it was 33kb and that 32kb was the suggested limit. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:34, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::Editting by section avoids this and constrains your changes to make edit histories more readable, even without comments. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 22:33, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::32kb is the suggested limit for pages due to technical issues with older web browsers, such as IE5 and NS4, if I recall correctly. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:06, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::Think about this article in the long-term encyclopedic view. If the series continues to a logical end, the contents of the page maybe (and likely) rendered moot. I don't if investing a lot of time picking over it is worth it. Anecdotely, I have cited this article a lot on boards, and the arguments have been analysed by non-wiki users and seem to be acceptable. Plus, it has received several complements. One solution maybe the disputed discussion [[Naturalistic science fiction]]. I like that because it forces the "disputer" to put forth logical arguments (and work) to make his/her point. Personally, I think that this is one of best "analytic" articles on the wiki. Just my 2 cubits. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:25, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::TNS is wildly successful by SciFi's standards; it'll be around more than long enough to keep this article moot [http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/m/m0415900.html in the original sense] for quite a while. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:28, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::I was referring to the second meaning of moot (obsolete), because we would know all the agents, especially if the series is able to continue to it's logical event. However, it is possibly we won't. After all my pontificating, I still see nothing wrong with the article. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 05:42, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I just meant that point is likely a long way off. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 09:15, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Ok, I am going to try and build these pages. What about titles though? We need names for the theories. I was thinking of [[Cylon agent speculation (extermination theory)]] for the theory that cylons only goal is the extermination of humans (and therefore their words can't be trusted). Not sure what to call the theory that this page currently supports. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:56, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

== Jammer in the webisodes ==

I disagree with the analysis of the webisodes presented on this page. Jammer was not advocating the Cylon agenda; he was baiting Duck to find out if he was a potential recruit. Jammer's reaction to Tigh's plan to hide arms in the temple is interesting, but hardly damning. Tyrol's oft-repeated line in the season three trailer ("some things you don't do, colonel, even in war") suggests the question of acceptable or unacceptable tactics will be part of the first few episodes of the next season. The scene in the temple might just be a setup for exploring that distinction. There are ten webisodes to go, and attempting to discern Jammer's motives at this point (with the story unfinished) might be a little premature. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 00:26, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
:I think the analysis of the webisodes is inline with the rest of the analysis. It inherently takes a paranoid approach, as most of the entries are meant to convince people someone isn't a Cylon. I certainly consider his behavior in the webisodes suspicious (more the second), particularly in comparision to the "roll the hard six" thing.
:As to leaving it off until The Resistance is finished, I feel that the text is likely to end up more polished if it's incremented and reviewed after each segment. In any case, it seems best to work with all canon material available at any given point. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:46, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

==The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings citation==
First off, '''Summary is not the talk page'''. It is '''not''' a place to discuss previous edits. It is a summary of what '''you''' changed about the page. Not why you think a previous change is invalid. '''That is what the talk page is for'''.

Secondly, simply naming an episode where a supposed reveal takes place is '''not''' a citation. Giving lines of dialogue '''or''' paraphrasing dialogue that takes place, is a citation. The reason I want it to be this specific is because if you are not specific, people can claim cited facts when in fact they are not facts; just someone's interpretation of events. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 10:09, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:'''Starbuck:''' So farms, that’s great. What were they gonna do? Knock me up with some Cylon kid?
:'''Sharon:''' They were gonna try to. We haven’t been successful so far.
:'''Anders:''' Supposedly they can’t reproduce. You know biologically. So they have been trying every which way to produce offspring.
:I think that's the relevent dialogue. Not sure how you want that incorporated... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:31, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::I'll add it, thanks. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:41, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::Mateo, having a link to "[[The Farm]]" is a [[BW:CJ|valid citation]], because this is where the information is revealed. Also, the pertinent quote that Steelviper posted on this talk page is listed on "The Farm"'s episode guide under "Noteworthy Dialogue", albeit in a much longer form. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:34, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:::It's not valid because a person would have to watch the entire episode to verify it. This is the equivalent of giving a book reference and just saying what book made the claim, without listing page numbers. Turn that into your professor and you're getting a failing grade. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:41, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::::While I see where you're coming from, wikis work differently than mere term papers. All one needs to do is click the link and find the pertinent information on "[[The Farm]]"'s page, which is why it's a valid wiki citation. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:45, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::One shouldn't have to read an entire article, '''not even knowing exactly what you are looking for''', to verify a claim. Besides, that breaks the citation rules of self-referencing. The person making the claim of fact has to do the work, not the person who wants to check the fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:56, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Humanoid Cylon speculation

2006-09-14T16:49:13Z

Mateo: added cite

The [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon's]] transformation into [[Cylon agent|humanoid form]] introduces serious problems for the remnant of humanity known as [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] to identify Cylon operative from human.

This article details plausible speculation on central and supporting characters in ''[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]'' who, based on their behavior, motive, and background, could be a Cylon agent.

=Needed Qualifiers for Speculation=

For a character to be logically considered a possible agent, there are a few established parameters to meet:

* '''The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings.''' For purposes of this article, a pregnancy can be generally established as a disqualifier. With [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|one exception]], Cylon agents have extreme difficulty with human sexual reproduction to the point of effectively infertility.<ref>During a discussion of the reproductive intentions of Cylons in [[The Farm#Noteworthy Dialogue|The Farm]]: 
'''Starbuck''': So farms, that’s great. What were they gonna do? Knock me up with some Cylon kid? '''Sharon''': They were gonna try to. We haven’t been successful so far. '''Anders''': Supposedly they can’t reproduce. You know biologically. So they have been trying every which way to produce offspring.</ref> If a character has adult, biological children, it automatically excludes them as being a Cylon agent as the procreation of the child and the age of the child both violate the 2nd qualifier. Although humanoid Cylons have, eventually, proven to be capable of reproduction with humans, the birth of the hybrid child [[Hera]] was considered such a seminal event by the Cylons that it seems safe to conclude that no Cylon ever had a child before that point.
* '''The suspect must not have a verifiable family history''' (other than marriage). A parent would known their child from birth (unless otherwise specified), and Cylons are not copies of prexisting humans. This is an expansion of the "confirmed character history" point below.
* '''The suspect cannot be confirmed to have witnessed or participated in the [[Cylon War]].''' This is another expansion of the "confirmed character history" point; the Cylons definitely didn't have humanoid models during the First Cylon War{{citation needed}}, so if someone is confirmed to have participated in the war 40 years ago, that person is not a Cylon, e.g. William Adama and Saul Tigh.
* '''The suspect does not have a reliable history''' involving direct association (i.e. working or personal relationship) with a confirmed human character for '''more than 2 years prior''' to the destruction of the Colonies.

Based on information from the [[Miniseries]], the Cylon agents began their infiltration and integration into Colonial society approximately 2 years before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. If a character has a direct association with a character that cannot be a Cylon agent, that association excludes them since they are older than the stated time that the agents began to integrate themselves into Colonial society. Note that the 2-year period is based on information given by [[Number Six]] to [[Gaius Baltar]]: Their relationship lasted for 2 years prior to the Cylon attack. There is also supporting information that [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer's]] tour of duty in the Colonial Fleet was also approximately 2 years.

According to [[Ron D. Moore]], the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties. '''Cylon agents are NOT copies or clones of any pre-existing humans, living or dead:''' In an October 24th, 2005 [http://www.thefandom.com/Article50.phtml podcast interview] Ron Moore stated that:

:"The idea is not there was one like an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these were...these models of Cylon were developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said, 'Well, you know what, there's really only twelve of you...and these are the twelve.' And then if you look at them, they kind of represent different archetypes of what humanity is."

Moore and the writers could always, of course, change their minds about anything not specifically established within the canon if needed. There is even precedent for retconning facts established within the canon itself, such as the amount of time remaining in the President's term (between [[Bastille Day]] and [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]) or the number of prisoners held aboard the [[Astral Queen]] (between the [[Miniseries]] and [[Bastille Day]].) Nonetheless, based on the qualifiers yet established, each assessment below is marked accordingly with their probability of being a Cylon infiltrator.

=Suspected Cylon infiltrators=
==High probability of being a Cylon==
=== Jammer? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' High

[[Jammer]] has exhibited suspicious actions numerous times. Along with [[Cally]] and [[Socinus]], he serves under Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] on the [[hangar deck]]. Jammer consistently makes remarks that seem to be trying to divide the humans against each other. When it was revealed to the Fleet that Cylons now can look like humans in "[[Litmus]]", he kept arguing that everyone should stop trusting each other and that it was "every man for himself now", while Socinus said that if they didn't trust each other they wouldn't survive. Cally even pointed out that Jammer's kind of thinking is ''exactly'' what the Cylons want: for everyone to become suspicious and paranoid. Jammer keeps doing this through the second season: when Tyrol is accused of being a Cylon in "[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]" he immediately yells at Cally that the Chief must be a Cylon. Whenever Jammer appears he seems to be trying to sow mistrust among the crew. Also, he told the emotionally unstable Cally that she should be angry at "Boomer" (the first Sharon Valerii copy) not himself, for Tyrol's being suspected, and that she should take it up with Boomer. Jammer can then be seen as having manipulated Cally into killing Boomer (Cally need not be a Cylon; Jammer could tell she was suffering from post-traumatic stress after Kobol and that she would go after Boomer if he suggested it to her).

Two of the biggest pieces of evidence against Jammer appear in the episode, "[[Valley of Darkness]]."

#Apollo and his group of marines found Jammer hiding in a small arms locker, completely unharmed, although the room was littered with the corpses of crewmen the Cylons had killed. He claims to have just hid then snuck inside, but perhaps he was already there and the Centurions spared him because they knew he was a Cylon as well. [[Anastasia Dualla]] was also found alive in a room filled with dead crewmen, but she was in the lavatory, which isn't a vital area of the ship, while Jammer was in a small arms locker. Further, Dualla was wounded; she had a light concussion and presumably a Centurion knocked her unconscious, assumed she was dead, and moved on. Jammer was just standing around inside of the weapons locker.
#Before the fight to protect [[Aft Damage Control]], Captain Adama says a phrase of his father's: "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Jammer asks what this means, and Adama explains. To date, no aired episode explains where [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica-Valerii]], a known agent, learns of this phrase, which she uses in a pressing situation in her efforts to defend ''Galactica'' in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]." Unwittingly, it is plausible that Valerii's knowledge of this phrase (and its origin) came from Jammer via the vague but tangible collective knowledge database of the Cylon agents. However, it is also plausible that [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Galactica-Valerii]] heard this phrase sometime prior to her memories being copied into Caprica-Valerii.

Jammer continues to exhibit pessimistic, counterproductive, and morale-draining behavior. When Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] was trying to construct the [[Blackbird]], he vocally tried to convince the other deckhands that it couldn't be done and it wasn't worth trying. He may have done this to undermine the military assets of ''Galactica'': the Cylons may be hoping to wear down ''Galactica's'' Viper numbers through gradual attrition, while because the Cylons have dedicated manufacturing capabilities for Raiders on the [[Cylon homeworld]] and possibly on basestars, Raiders are easily replaceable. With this in mind, the last thing the Cylons would want is for ''Galactica'' to start constructing her own replacement fighters ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).

Jammer's suspicious behavior extends through the first two [[webisodes]], as he talks with [[Tucker Clellan|Duck]] about the proposed [[New Caprica Police]]. To Duck's disgust at the notion, Jammer replys "Some people say it's a good thing... Get the Centurions off the streets, let us patrol them ourselves," tentatively advocating the Cylons' agenda. Of course, this statement is ambiguous, as Jammer is ostensibly "feeling out" Duck for recruitment into Tyrol and Tigh's resistance cell, so his pro-Cylon idea could just be a tactic to draw Duck's opinion out further.

Jammer also advises Tyrol not to be angry about Duck's refusal to join and to give up on recruiting him. Jammer balks at hiding weapons in the temple on [[New Caprica]] as well, although he is overruled by Tigh.

==Moderate probability of being a Cylon==
===Anastasia "Dee" Dualla?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] seems to have a fairly well developed backstory regarding her past; she is a Sagittaron ([[Bastille Day]]), her father disapproved of her joining the military ([[Final Cut]]), but upon closer inspection none of this can be confirmed by a third party: the only source of information about Dualla's past in the series has been Dualla herself. Dualla's position in charge of ''Galactica's'' communications puts her in an ideal position for subversion. In "[[Valley of Darkness]]", Dualla is found in the enlisted head, having suffered a blow to the head from Cylon Centurions that passed through. The Centurions killed everyone else, and it does seem plausible that one merely swiped her in the head, knocking her out, and thus thought she was dead and moved on. However, it still seems odd that she was the only survivor. In addition, Number Six later demonstrated in "[[Downloaded]]" how she was willing to physically damage herself in order to manipulate ''Galactica''-Sharon's sympathy: perhaps Dualla hit ''herself'' in the head, to fake an injury, thus throwing suspicion off of herself. Dualla started a relationship with President Roslin's aide, Billy Keikeya, possibly to gain a foothold in the president's office, and then began a relationship with Lee Adama, CAG of ''Galactica'' and son of the military commander of the entire fleet. Eventually, Apollo was promoted to ''Pegasus'' commander and Dualla left ''Galactica'' to marry him and become his XO, further insinuating herself into the command structure.

=== Felix Gaeta? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

Lt. [[Felix Gaeta]] is in a good position for a Cylon—not conspicuous but nonetheless in a position where he can help the Cylons quite a bit. Gaeta arguably seems to hand something to Boomer in "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]" before she shoots Adama (a frame by frame analysis shows that their hands are not in frame dispite the camera intentionally panning down when he shakes her hand, leaving the question unanswered). However, he did not hand her a gun, because pilots always carry sidearms, and she walked into CIC with it. Gaeta can recognize Cylon devices, and is close to [[Gaius Baltar|Dr. Baltar]]. He admitted to ignoring the Cylon device installed on his console in the [[miniseries]], explaining that he thought it was unimportant. Gaeta has plotted coordinates to a water planet, a Cylon [[tyllium]] base, and [[Kobol]] with uncanny accuracy. He "forgot" to send updated [[emergency jump coordinates]] to the fleet in "[[Scattered]]", leaving ''Galactica'' vulnerable to Cylon electronic attack after having to network the ship [[Computers|computer]] systems together. In "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]" Gaeta helps the Cylon cause by uncovering the ballot tampering which leads to the election of Gaius.

Gaeta's recent behavioral changes from the stress of working at evading the Cylons shows by "[[Final Cut]]" as Gaeta is shown in his interview drunk, smoking, and wearing a new tattoo. By the following episode, "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", Gaeta angrily snaps at Colonel Tigh for giving a difficult order, causing surprise throughout [[CIC]] since Gaeta is normally a calm, reserved officer even under the worst of conditions. Contrast this behavior with Boomer, the ''Galactica'' copy of Sharon Valerii, who still appeared quite alert after 5 continuous days of combat status. Note the following dialogue from the first regular series episode, "[[33]]":

::'''[[Lee Adama|Apollo]]''': Hey, how about you, Boomer? [[Cottle|Doc]] tells me you're holding up better than anybody in the squadron.
::'''Boomer''': I'm tired, like everybody else.
::'''Apollo''': You never seem it.
::'''[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]]''': 'Cause she's a Cylon.
::'''Boomer''': You're just gonna make me come over there and kick your ass, aren't you?

While even Cylon agents develop severe behavioral and physiological issues after extended work and abuse ([[Number Six#Gina|Pegasus]]), Cylon agents appear to be more resilient than humans, which may limit the likelihood of Gaeta's possible Cylon connection. On the other hand, if he were a Cylon, Gaeta's human personality may have finally been overtaxed by that time, suggesting that an actual human might have snapped earlier in their exodus in contrast.

In the end, Gaeta's likelihood as a Cylon operative may be in doubt over one key element: The Cylons appear to have integrated human agents into the Colonies no earlier than 2 years before the events of the Miniseries. Gaeta has served on ''Galactica'' with Commander Adama for three years ([[Miniseries]]). Since humanoid Cylons are not clones of actual humans, the likelihood of Gaeta as a Cylon agent would depend on the start of Cylon agent introduction.

=== Ellen Tigh? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: Maybe (Character over 40 years of age)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Seven-year marriage to [[Saul Tigh]]
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to Moderate

In light of her statistic-defying survival of the Cylon holocaust and her manipulations of her husband during Commander [[William Adama]]'s incapacitation ([[Scattered]] through [[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]), [[Ellen Tigh]]'s actions have demonstrated the possibility that she may be a Cylon agent. For someone who seems so intelligent and far-sighted, she should be well aware that pushing her husband to strong-arm the rest of the Fleet to conform with his (and her) views would only end in chaos. If she ''is'' a Cylon looking to destroy the Fleet from within, then the best weapon in her arsenal is the man she's married to.

In an October 2005 webcast, [[Ronald D. Moore]] indicated that the likelihood of Ellen Tigh being a Cylon was low. Essentially, this was due to the feeling that having her be a Cylon agent would not only be convenient, but unrealistic from a story point-of-view as well. Moore's comments don't eliminate Ellen Tigh from consideration, but reduces the likelihood of this speculation. Some viewers surmise that Moore may have meant that revealing Tigh as a Cylon in her [[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down|debut episode]] in addition to the character's many other complexities, would stretch the overall believability or integrity of the character at that point, but that he was not refering to her actual status as a Cylon or not at the time.

Ellen Tigh's celebrated her seventh wedding anniversary with Saul Tigh in a [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season01/112/deleted1.html deleted scene] from the episode "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]". If the canonicity of this scene stands, then Ellen's likelihood of being an agent drops dramatically. Else, the establishment of their wedding "date" should aid in increasing or reducing speculation on this intriguing character.

==Low probability of being a Cylon==
===Gaius Baltar?===
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifying character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Very low

There is very low chance that [[Gaius Baltar]] is actually a Cylon. He has been a prominent public figure for years. Number Six earnestly wanted to have a hybrid child with him as the biological father and her as the biological mother, but had to change her plans to ''considering'' [[Hera]] to be "their child" even though it is not biologically theirs. Cylons talking amongst themselves in "[[Downloaded]]" continually referred to Baltar as a human.

To review a detailed breakdown of the whys and whatfors of the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon, see [[Baltar as Cylon speculation]]

=== Bell? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

D'anna Biers' [[Bell|cameraman/assistant]] is another possible candidate for a Cylon infiltrator, as he has been shown willingly taking part in the same devious and manipulative activities as D'anna Biers ([[Final Cut]]). Whether he is a Cylon working in tandem with Biers, or just a nosy human journalist following his superior’s equally devious wishes has yet to be determined.

Bell's speculation as a Cylon agent is questionable based on some of his actions in "Final Cut." When he is free of D'anna Biers, he doesn't film sensitive, if seemingly trivial, data. He overlooks the carbon dioxide scrubbers (a potential Cylon infiltrator target). In addition, instead of filming the [[hangar deck]] after the destruction of the two [[Raider]]s, Bell focuses on Apollo's post-flight check. Since Bell has not been seen in the series since this episode, the lack of further appearances all but eliminates the likelihood for this character to be a Cylon agent.

===Cally?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

[[Cally]] shot Boomer in a "Jack Ruby-style" assassination, preventing the Fleet from interrogating her further. While this might benefit the Cylon agenda, Cally had a perfectly understandable reason for doing it, which she has openly stated: she hated Boomer for what she did to Chief Tyrol, hated her for betraying all of their trust and shooting Adama, and simply because she was a Cylon. Indeed, many other characters in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]" ''congratulate'' Cally and say they would have done the same given the chance. Little can be confirmed about Cally's past, not even her first name yet, but this has not pointed to any Cylon origin. Finally, Cally is pregnant with Tyrol's child as of the end of season 2, meaning it is impossible for them both to be Cylons and improbable in the extreme that either of them is.

===Tory Foster?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to Moderate

[[Tory Foster]]'s past is unconfirmed, and she seemed eager to work her way into President Roslin's administration. The odds that another aide with skills like Billy Keikeya would also happen to be alive in the Fleet is also tenuous.

=== Billy Keikeya? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

[[Billy Keikeya]] might also be a Cylon due to the relative lack of confirmation surrounding his character. In a deleted scene in the Miniseries, it is revealed that Roslin met Billy for the first time when she boarded Colonial One to travel to Galactica; thus he presence can only be "confirmed" immediately before the attack, far short of even the 2 years that Number Six and Boomer had infiltrated the Colonies. Virtually nothing can be confirmed about Billy; although he states in the Miniseries that his parents and siblings were living on Picon when it was nuked, we really only have his word for it and no way to confirm that these were actual facts. Everyone just takes Billy's word for it. Billy has also stated (in deleted scenes in "[[Home, Part II]]") that he is an atheist. Again, he could simply be behaving based on implanted false memories that form a fake personality crafted by the Cylons, and it would be an ironic twist if an atheist character was revealed to belong to a race of religious zealots. That being said, the most recently revealed Cylon agent, [[Cavil]], also exhibits atheistic or agnostic tendencies, explicitly stating that "there is no [[God]]" when interrogated by Roslin and Adama.

Billy could be a Cylon that was sent to keep tabs on Laura Roslin during the attack; Roslin was a viable target due to her status as a high-ranking government official. In an interesting deleted scene in "[[Fragged]]" Billy appears in one of Roslin's dreams as a manifestation of her own doubts and fears. In the dream he antagonistically taunts her for her faith in the [[Sacred Scrolls]] and [[Kara Thrace]] then stabs her in the heart with a knife after which she wakes up screaming in terror. Given the prophetic connotations of Roslin's previous dreams and visions this could ''possibly'' be taken as evidence for Keikeya being a Cylon, however like most deleted material its canonicity is tentative at best.

The character of Billy Keikeya dies in the episode, "[[Sacrifice]]." As only Cylon agents can "return from the dead," the argument for Keikeya as a Cylon agent is effectively invalid unless the character appears in a present-time (non-flashback) episode of the series, which would confirm Keikeya's true nature.

===Galen Tyrol?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] was in an illicit relationship with Boomer, and later had recurring nightmares based on his fear that he might also be a Cylon sleeper agent. However, he has served under William Adama on ''Galactica'' for 5 years, and as Adama put it, had he been a Cylon and they wanted the ship to be destroyed, he more than knew how to do it, and should have ''already'' done it by this point. Cally's expected child in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]", ostensibly that of Tyrol's, all but removes suspicion for this character (love does allow human-Cylon pregnancies to occur, however).

=Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons=
The following characters, for individual reasons below, have been disproven from any possibility of being humanoid Cylon sleeper agents.

===Lee "Apollo" Adama===
* Known siblings or adult children: Yes, with qualifier (See "[[Black Market]]")
* Known family members: Yes ([[William Adama]], [[Zak Adama]])
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

In "[[Flesh and Bone]]", a copy of [[Leoben Conoy]], a Cylon agent, grabs [[Laura Roslin]] and tells her, "Adama is a Cylon," prior to his execution. If his statement is true, it leaves doubt on which Adama he is talking about, although Roslin's actions in the next episode, "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]", indicate that she believes Conoy spoke of Commander Adama.

Cylon agents are not copies (clones) of existing people. Evidence from [[Sharon Valerii]]'s and [[Number Six]]'s conversations indicate that humanoid Cylon infiltration began no earlier than 2 years prior to the events of the [[Miniseries]], although their respective backstories may suggest they have been "alive" for many years. As Lee Adama was alive long before this introduction, and his father knew him since he was born and can thus confirm this, the probability that Lee Adama is a Cylon is as low as that of his father.

Information from the episode, "[[Black Market]]" suggests that Adama was to be a father to a child he conceived on Caprica, but he left the unborn child's mother, his lover at the time. Such a pregnancy, if Lee Adama was indeed an agent, would introduce the ability of Cylon ''males'' to sire children (currently, episodes only show that it is possible for a Cylon ''female'' to conceive).

''There are reports of fan fiction with stories involving [[Lee Adama]] as a Cylon. ''Battlestar Wiki'' does not post fan fiction (whole or in excerpts), or speculation generated by these stories. An article's content must (with [[Numerology|some]] [[Toaster|silly]], [[The Battlestar Galactica Drinking Game|non-sequitur]] [[Flashlight|exceptions]]) provide sufficient basis in fact or probability based on aired episode information or other official sources as described in the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad]] project page.''

===William Adama===
* Known siblings or adult children: Yes ([[Lee Adama]] and [[Zak Adama]])
* Known family members: Yes ([[Caroline Adama]] and [[Anne Adama]])
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: Yes (widely-known Veteran)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (Saul Tigh)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Of all the suspected infiltrators, the case against [[William Adama]] appears to be the weakest.

In the Miniseries, Adama seems to know that the Cylon agents have "silica relays" in their brains, and that they would be affected by the storm around [[Ragnar Anchorage]]. This knowledge is not explained, but the [[Number Five]] copy left on the station showed signs of being affected, whereas Adama did not. In "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]", Commander Adama disappears mysteriously and returns with Ellen Tigh. Around the same time, a Cylon Raider shows up. However, this was all explained later in the same episode, when Adama reveals that he was reluctant to openly announce Ellen's sudden appearance because he was afraid she could be a Cylon.

Adama also has exhibited strange behavior, from expressing vague Cylon sympathies (both in his speech in the Miniseries and in his discussion with Tyrol in "[[Home, Part I]]" where he seems to concede that Boomer was more than a machine). While not openly friendly to the Cylons, Adama seems to at least respect them as persons in that he does not treat the Caprica copy of Sharon Valerii inhumanely (despite an attempt at strangling her when they first met), despite what was done to him by the Valerii copy known as "Boomer". While this could indicate a Cylon nature, it's also extremely likely that Adama's strength of character and personality enable him to think that Valerii might actually have changed.

William Adama is the father of two children, [[Lee Adama|Lee]] and [[Zak Adama|Zak]]. Before the conception of Valerii's hybrid child the Cylons have been unable to produce children through sexual reproduction. Further, Adama is, by all accounts, a veteran of the well-documented [[Cylon War]], back at a time where Cylons were purely mechanical and not biosynthetic.

When the recent revelation by Ron Moore that Cylon agents are unique beings and not copies of existing humans is added to this, the likelihood of William Adama as a suspected infiltrator could be all but ruled out. This also throws the validity of Leoben Conoy's final words to Roslin accusing Adama as a Cylon in "[[Flesh and Bone]]" into question (which were almost certainly meant to just spread paranoia).

The strongest convincing evidence against Adama as a Cylon is that we have seen flashbacks of Adama and Saul Tigh set 20 years prior to the destruction of the Colonies, after the first Cylon War. Since Cylon agents aren't copies of humans, it is not possible for Adama (or Tigh) to be Cylon operatives (at least of the type used thus far).

===Samuel Anders===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown (Was Pyramid Ball player but not known for how long)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

As the leader of an anti-Cylon resistance movement on Cylon-occupied Caprica, [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] stands small chance of actually being a Cylon. He was a well known public figure as a sports star, and though this might have only happened recently, it lends credit against the idea that he is a Cylon. In "[[Downloaded]]", while he is unconscious [[Number Three]] and [[Number Six]] refer to him between themselves as a human.

===Helena Cain===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Admiral [[Helena Cain]] may have been ruthless and a danger to the Fleet, but she was a publicly known figure for years. Cain spent years rapidly rising through the ranks all the way up to Admiral. Adama has personally witnessed this rise, which must have taken longer than the 2 year cutoff for likely Cylon agent infiltration as defined in this article.

===Karl "Helo" Agathon===
* Known siblings or adult or hybrid children: Yes ([[Hera]])
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Karl Agathon|Helo]] fathers a Cylon-human hybrid, [[Hera]], with a known Cylon agent, [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Sharon Valerii]]. As Cylon males cannot sire children with Cylon females (per data from "[[The Farm]]"), Helo cannot realistically be a Cylon himself.

===Laura Roslin===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (President [[Richard Adar]])
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

President [[Laura Roslin]] may have prophetic moments, like [[Number Six]] and [[Leoben Conoy]], but she cannot possibly be a Cylon. Roslin was a public figure for 20 years ([[Litmus]]), working with later-President Adar and eventually serving as Secretary of Education: her past is totally confirmed. Cylon agents appear to be resistant to cancer, and Roslin was dying of cancer until she was cured by a blood transfusion from the Cylon-Human hybrid foetus ([[Epiphanies]]).

===Kara "Starbuck" Thrace===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: Yes (alluded to in "[[The Farm]]" by [[Simon]])
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] has been disproven from being a Cylon: [[Simon]] wanted to use Starbuck's egg cells in Cylon/Human hybrid experiments, and it would be totally illogical for him to need to hold her against her will to obtain her genetic material, if the Cylons already have hundreds of copies of a Starbuck-model Cylon to obtain it from. Starbuck's incarceration in a Cylon [[Farms|Farm]] disqualifies her from being a Cylon. Further, reproduction between humanoid Cylons is impossible, and Starbuck would not have been captured for use in human-Cylon hybrid experiments if she was not human.

===Saul Tigh===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: Yes (widely-known Veteran)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Saul Tigh]] is well known as a veteran of the first Cylon War, and has served as a non-obscure officer in the Fleet for decades. In many respects the case against Saul Tigh being a Cylon is similar to that of William Adama's (above).

The strongest convincing evidence against Tigh as a Cylon is that we have seen flashbacks of Tigh and William Adama set 20 years prior to the destruction of the Colonies, after the first Cylon War. Since Cylon agents aren't copies of humans, it is not possible for Tigh or Adama to be Cylon operatives (at least of the type used thus far).

===Tom Zarek===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: Unknown
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (President Adar, publicly known to be held in prison for 20 years)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Tom Zarek]] may seem subversive to the status quo of the Fleet and opposed to President Roslin's administration, but he can't be a Cylon. Zarek has been a well-known terrorist/political dissident for decades. He is widely known for blowing up a government building on Sagittaron, leading to his arrest 20 years ago, and he was presumably a prominent Sagittaron leader for years beforehand. President Adar publicly offered him amnesty if he would renounce his campaign of violence to free Sagittaron and Zarek refused. Due to being such a publicly known figure for so many decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-09-14T16:41:16Z

Mateo: /* The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings citation */

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

'''I am not attacking you personally'''. I am pointing out legitimate concerns.

#"''I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them''"--->This isn't acknowledging anything, and that's not even what you did: you continued to complain about "we need to cite such and such", even after we inserted citations, etc. etc.
#"''We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM ''"--->I still have no idea what this "second" thing is you are talking about. Please elaborate. I am honestly confused.
#By us having to direct you to this Discussion page, and me even having to go "I will bring this up in a discussion page for the article, it's place is not a personal rant on another page", that I had to do this and we had to explain it to you, showed if you do know how to use wikis you were being confusing about it, and either way not trying to go about the ''process'' of using a Wiki through discussion with other users.
#"''Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise.''" Define "irony"
#Mateo in the "over a year" you've been on wikis, you've basically done only 2 things on BSWiki: argued the semantics of a "Sequel" vs a "prequel", and the current demand that this page be destroyed. I'm not berating you for not using BSWIki alot; we get many newcomers who are not avid about it. What is straining the ''decorum'' is that you are now describing the many flaws in articles you didn't even talk about in Discussion. By your own words, you are a "Stranger" here. I'd be happier if you worked to really helping out here and being a part of stuff.
#Yes, I proved my case. At this point you're just lashing out at everyone who is disagreeing with you when you could be trying to work with us. Homer Simpson: "''I'm'' not pouting....''you're'' pouting!"
#I put the matter to a definative vote so this doesn't drag on forever. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:45, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Responses to above:

#Well, if I missed something by a few minutes then sorry. I acknowlege that I am happy with the removal of "contact with other cylons". I've moved on from that. I'm now talking specifically about that Cylons can not have children.
#We were talking about both the 2nd qualification and whether rankings can exist in general. Talking about two things at once creates confusion (now we are discussing about 20 things, so it's even more confusing). We don't need to continue talking about this, it's unimportant.
#The other discussion page was on the state of the wiki. You, for some reason, thought that I shouldn't talk about specific articles on that page. Whatever, so I moved over here with you. That doesn't mean I don't know how wikis work just because you disagree with where I talk about certain things. Why are we even talking about this? What does this have to do with the article? '''This isn't about me or you''', it's about the article. This is called "ad hominem", attacking the person.
#This type of thing is complete unnecessary. It doesn't help resolve disagreements.
#I didn't demand that this page be destroyed. My problem was that the ranking system seemed to favor certain POVs (and I turned out to be right, which is why I think you're so angry right now). I suggested changing it around to make it NPOV. You've invented this "destroy the article" stuff in your mind.
#No, you haven't proven that anything a cylon says to a human is true. I am not lashing out at '''anyone'''. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Look at your last two posts which were nothing more than insults against me. I have insulted '''no one''', I have only pointed out when POVs are being ignored.
#That vote isn't related to this matter, as I never suggested deleting the article in the first place. My suggestions have all been to remove POV content. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:Is the "ranking" really that valuable? I can see the utility in pointing out characters that cannot possibly being Cylons due to canon references, but as for the remaining ones... they '''might''' be Cylons. One person's "moderate" might be another person's "high" or "low". All we should do is present the facts as they've appeared in the series and let the reader decide for themselves. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::Agreed! I've been saying this for a while, a ranking system cannot possibly be neutral. There are fundamentally assumptions made (such as demonstrated above, the assumption that cylons are telling the truth when talking to humans). It should be up to individuals, no the BSwiki, to decide what they believe. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
It still needs to be moved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:12, 24 August 2006 (CDT)

It ''still'' needs to be moved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:05, 6 September 2006 (CDT)

:To be honest, I'd rather see Baltar moved to "no possibility." --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:13, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

==Vote==

I put forward the proposal (which I do not support) that we yank all of the "chances of being a Cylon" stuff, as well as anything not stated directly on screen or by RDM, removing all Analysis on our part.

'''Support'''

'''Oppose'''
#{{Oppose}} - There's nothing truly wrong with this well-researched Analysis article. As far as Analysis allows, it is Not POV. Any minor concerns with it can and were easily fixed by simple editing and discussion, and there's nothing wrong with summaryizing who has more evidence against them and who has relatively little.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
'''Comment'''
* I don't think anybody (including Mateo) is in favor of this. I think you realize that, though. Should this "vote" continue to take up space if it really isn't anything that anybody is even suggesting? If anything I think most of Mateo's objections would be resolved by simply yanking the "Chances of being a Cylon" rating and headers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
** Point taken, I'll revise that...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:12, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

* You can't properly hold a single vote on 2 seperate issues (rankings and analysis). Some people might be in favor of one but not the other. Such as me. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:15, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
**I agree. Following SV's advise, this is just for the rankings. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
***The proposal says for removing rankings and analysis. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:18, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

== Possible resolution to POV dispute ==

Instead of scraping the article altogether, it could be possible to set up seperate pages for different theories. For example, currently this page supports an axiomatic assumption that things cylons say to humans are true, absent evience against it. You could set up a page that operates off of that assumption. You can then set up a seperate page for a different assumptions, for example my opinion that anything cylons say to humans can not be trusted. And so on. That way no one's POV is excluded and we can still have speculation based on the various theories. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:That's needlessly elaborate, and '''BattlestarWiki is not a messageboard'''. ---->I have already put it to vote. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:35, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide an alternative that doesn't exclude some POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:38, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::There ''are'' no POV violations. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::This article supports the POV that cylons are telling the truth to humans. POVs which contradict this assumption are excluded, currently. I'm trying to find a way to fix this, this suggestion is the best I can come up with so far. If you have other suggestions, I would like to hear them. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:01, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::Could everybody quit using the POV and NPOV terms? I think they are just confusing the issue. Couldn't we just report all the "facts" that are presented in canon and let the reader draw their conclusions? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:49, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I agree that this is probably the best path. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:02, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::Mateo I am sorry that this may have caused tension; A) I don't think there's a problem with rankings, just saying "this person has a lot of evidence against them and little alibi: High probability"...much less, people like Adama who we've actually ruled out. I hope the rankings represent a blurring rather than rigid structure (i.e. Low to Moderate) B) There isn't much fundamentally wrong with this page itself, it's for Analysis. While we could debate the rankings thing, on having Analysis at all I really think that's just the nature of the thing. C) '''We've got bigger fish to fry than our own petty squabbles, fellow BSG Fan: I've just heard shocking news that due to an NBC/Writer's Guild of America fight, the BSG Webisodes have been postponed indefinately. Quickly, to the webisdoes article!'''...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::While there's definitely merit in well-researched analysis, I think it's important that we should distinguish our "analysis" content from our "encyclopedic" content. Maybe there could be an encyclopedic version of this page that's just the facts (ma'am), then an "analysis version" (in an analysis namespace) that would be as it is now? If another fan wants to research the same problems under different assumptions, they could start a different analysis article, and use the encyclopedic article as ammunition (but operating under their alternative assumptions). And... damnit. That's why they haven't been released. I wondered if something was up (since they should have been out by now otherwise). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:41, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::Perhaps we could use a Template at the top clearly saying this is an Analysis page?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:31, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::This article ''does'' have "speculation" in the title. I think that suffices. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

My concern is the relationship between Qualifiers and Rankings. Rankings are based on Qualifiers. Qualifiers are based on Assumptions. So if a person has different assumptions, their rankings will be different. Assumptions are [[wikipedia:axiomatic|axiomatic]]. The difference between this Analysis and Anaylsis on episode pages is that the analysis on episode pages is not axiomatic: it doesn't make definitive statements that then influence the rest of the article. This one does. I still would like to resolve this. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:36, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:I think that lays it out more clearly: Rankings are based on Qualifiers. (Going in reverse order): I think the Qualifiers are fine, and the Rankings a logical easy to read summation of their net result. If you don't like the Qualifiers, I can see why you are against the Rankings (as they are based on them).--------->Our Qualifiers are not based on "Assumptions". "Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people" is not an assumption at all, "Cylons probably started infiltrating Colonial society ''en masse'' 2 years ago so someone who's been aronud 20 years can't be a Cylon" is ''Analysis''; a point based on evidence, not "assumption", and Caprica-Sharon's long scene explaining how Cylons themselves are sterile, was presented as fact and fits into place with all other Cylon activities. No, we will not remove Caprica-Sharon's statement from the Qualifiers, as it was presented as really fact and as Joe said above, to doubt everything verges on paranoia. It's a Hypothesis: any good scientific hypothesis bases itself on evidence which is trusted until disproven. I.e. we still call Evolution technically a "theory" but it's based on solid evidence and speculation based on that, analysis, but not wild "Assumptions" of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. With reference to that specific point, we aren't removing the Cylon sterility thing as a qualifier.--->Qualifiersare not based on "Assumptions"; most of this is tentative (save for those people we've ruled out for several reasons), under the "well I wasn't there and didn't ''see'' homo erectus turn into Cro Magnons, but I can pretty well piece together the evidence so I'm not doubting it" train of thought.---->'''Thank you''' for still wanting to resolve this. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:42, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::"It was presented as fact". What does that even mean? A cylon made claims of fact to humans. Saying that this is "evidence" makes the assumption that she is telling the truth. That's a POV, '''by definition'''. There's no dancing around this. This article is extremely POV and you are stiff-arming any attempt to make it encompass more than just your own personal POV. The fact that you say "No, we will not remove Caprica-Sharon's statement from the Qualifiers" shows that you don't want to resolve this and that, in fact, you feel you have more power here than everyone else (you don't).

::There are really only 2 possible ways to make this article neutral: remove all POV qualifiers '''or''' make this a page of facts and then splinter pages for different POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:18, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::: Having thought about this, I think the best measure would be to cover all possible POV on this. One POV for those who believe Sharon telling the truth and those who believe Sharon's not. Further thoughts, concerns, suggestions? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:31, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

:::: I think it's best to break into different pages. I just edited the page and it said it was 33kb and that 32kb was the suggested limit. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:34, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::Editting by section avoids this and constrains your changes to make edit histories more readable, even without comments. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 22:33, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::32kb is the suggested limit for pages due to technical issues with older web browsers, such as IE5 and NS4, if I recall correctly. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:06, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::Think about this article in the long-term encyclopedic view. If the series continues to a logical end, the contents of the page maybe (and likely) rendered moot. I don't if investing a lot of time picking over it is worth it. Anecdotely, I have cited this article a lot on boards, and the arguments have been analysed by non-wiki users and seem to be acceptable. Plus, it has received several complements. One solution maybe the disputed discussion [[Naturalistic science fiction]]. I like that because it forces the "disputer" to put forth logical arguments (and work) to make his/her point. Personally, I think that this is one of best "analytic" articles on the wiki. Just my 2 cubits. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:25, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::TNS is wildly successful by SciFi's standards; it'll be around more than long enough to keep this article moot [http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/m/m0415900.html in the original sense] for quite a while. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:28, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::I was referring to the second meaning of moot (obsolete), because we would know all the agents, especially if the series is able to continue to it's logical event. However, it is possibly we won't. After all my pontificating, I still see nothing wrong with the article. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 05:42, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I just meant that point is likely a long way off. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 09:15, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

== Jammer in the webisodes ==

I disagree with the analysis of the webisodes presented on this page. Jammer was not advocating the Cylon agenda; he was baiting Duck to find out if he was a potential recruit. Jammer's reaction to Tigh's plan to hide arms in the temple is interesting, but hardly damning. Tyrol's oft-repeated line in the season three trailer ("some things you don't do, colonel, even in war") suggests the question of acceptable or unacceptable tactics will be part of the first few episodes of the next season. The scene in the temple might just be a setup for exploring that distinction. There are ten webisodes to go, and attempting to discern Jammer's motives at this point (with the story unfinished) might be a little premature. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 00:26, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
:I think the analysis of the webisodes is inline with the rest of the analysis. It inherently takes a paranoid approach, as most of the entries are meant to convince people someone isn't a Cylon. I certainly consider his behavior in the webisodes suspicious (more the second), particularly in comparision to the "roll the hard six" thing.
:As to leaving it off until The Resistance is finished, I feel that the text is likely to end up more polished if it's incremented and reviewed after each segment. In any case, it seems best to work with all canon material available at any given point. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:46, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

==The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings citation==
First off, '''Summary is not the talk page'''. It is '''not''' a place to discuss previous edits. It is a summary of what '''you''' changed about the page. Not why you think a previous change is invalid. '''That is what the talk page is for'''.

Secondly, simply naming an episode where a supposed reveal takes place is '''not''' a citation. Giving lines of dialogue '''or''' paraphrasing dialogue that takes place, is a citation. The reason I want it to be this specific is because if you are not specific, people can claim cited facts when in fact they are not facts; just someone's interpretation of events. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 10:09, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:'''Starbuck:''' So farms, that’s great. What were they gonna do? Knock me up with some Cylon kid?
:'''Sharon:''' They were gonna try to. We haven’t been successful so far.
:'''Anders:''' Supposedly they can’t reproduce. You know biologically. So they have been trying every which way to produce offspring.
:I think that's the relevent dialogue. Not sure how you want that incorporated... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:31, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::I'll add it, thanks. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:41, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

::Mateo, having a link to "[[The Farm]]" is a [[BW:CJ|valid citation]], because this is where the information is revealed. Also, the pertinent quote that Steelviper posted on this talk page is listed on "The Farm"'s episode guide under "Noteworthy Dialogue", albeit in a much longer form. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:34, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

:::It's not valid because a person would have to watch the entire episode to verify it. This is the equivalent of giving a book reference and just saying what book made the claim, without listing page numbers. Turn that into your professor and you're getting a failing grade. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:41, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-09-14T15:09:39Z

Mateo:

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

'''I am not attacking you personally'''. I am pointing out legitimate concerns.

#"''I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them''"--->This isn't acknowledging anything, and that's not even what you did: you continued to complain about "we need to cite such and such", even after we inserted citations, etc. etc.
#"''We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM ''"--->I still have no idea what this "second" thing is you are talking about. Please elaborate. I am honestly confused.
#By us having to direct you to this Discussion page, and me even having to go "I will bring this up in a discussion page for the article, it's place is not a personal rant on another page", that I had to do this and we had to explain it to you, showed if you do know how to use wikis you were being confusing about it, and either way not trying to go about the ''process'' of using a Wiki through discussion with other users.
#"''Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise.''" Define "irony"
#Mateo in the "over a year" you've been on wikis, you've basically done only 2 things on BSWiki: argued the semantics of a "Sequel" vs a "prequel", and the current demand that this page be destroyed. I'm not berating you for not using BSWIki alot; we get many newcomers who are not avid about it. What is straining the ''decorum'' is that you are now describing the many flaws in articles you didn't even talk about in Discussion. By your own words, you are a "Stranger" here. I'd be happier if you worked to really helping out here and being a part of stuff.
#Yes, I proved my case. At this point you're just lashing out at everyone who is disagreeing with you when you could be trying to work with us. Homer Simpson: "''I'm'' not pouting....''you're'' pouting!"
#I put the matter to a definative vote so this doesn't drag on forever. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:45, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Responses to above:

#Well, if I missed something by a few minutes then sorry. I acknowlege that I am happy with the removal of "contact with other cylons". I've moved on from that. I'm now talking specifically about that Cylons can not have children.
#We were talking about both the 2nd qualification and whether rankings can exist in general. Talking about two things at once creates confusion (now we are discussing about 20 things, so it's even more confusing). We don't need to continue talking about this, it's unimportant.
#The other discussion page was on the state of the wiki. You, for some reason, thought that I shouldn't talk about specific articles on that page. Whatever, so I moved over here with you. That doesn't mean I don't know how wikis work just because you disagree with where I talk about certain things. Why are we even talking about this? What does this have to do with the article? '''This isn't about me or you''', it's about the article. This is called "ad hominem", attacking the person.
#This type of thing is complete unnecessary. It doesn't help resolve disagreements.
#I didn't demand that this page be destroyed. My problem was that the ranking system seemed to favor certain POVs (and I turned out to be right, which is why I think you're so angry right now). I suggested changing it around to make it NPOV. You've invented this "destroy the article" stuff in your mind.
#No, you haven't proven that anything a cylon says to a human is true. I am not lashing out at '''anyone'''. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Look at your last two posts which were nothing more than insults against me. I have insulted '''no one''', I have only pointed out when POVs are being ignored.
#That vote isn't related to this matter, as I never suggested deleting the article in the first place. My suggestions have all been to remove POV content. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:Is the "ranking" really that valuable? I can see the utility in pointing out characters that cannot possibly being Cylons due to canon references, but as for the remaining ones... they '''might''' be Cylons. One person's "moderate" might be another person's "high" or "low". All we should do is present the facts as they've appeared in the series and let the reader decide for themselves. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::Agreed! I've been saying this for a while, a ranking system cannot possibly be neutral. There are fundamentally assumptions made (such as demonstrated above, the assumption that cylons are telling the truth when talking to humans). It should be up to individuals, no the BSwiki, to decide what they believe. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
It still needs to be moved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:12, 24 August 2006 (CDT)

It ''still'' needs to be moved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:05, 6 September 2006 (CDT)

:To be honest, I'd rather see Baltar moved to "no possibility." --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:13, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

==Vote==

I put forward the proposal (which I do not support) that we yank all of the "chances of being a Cylon" stuff, as well as anything not stated directly on screen or by RDM, removing all Analysis on our part.

'''Support'''

'''Oppose'''
#{{Oppose}} - There's nothing truly wrong with this well-researched Analysis article. As far as Analysis allows, it is Not POV. Any minor concerns with it can and were easily fixed by simple editing and discussion, and there's nothing wrong with summaryizing who has more evidence against them and who has relatively little.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
'''Comment'''
* I don't think anybody (including Mateo) is in favor of this. I think you realize that, though. Should this "vote" continue to take up space if it really isn't anything that anybody is even suggesting? If anything I think most of Mateo's objections would be resolved by simply yanking the "Chances of being a Cylon" rating and headers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
** Point taken, I'll revise that...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:12, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

* You can't properly hold a single vote on 2 seperate issues (rankings and analysis). Some people might be in favor of one but not the other. Such as me. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:15, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
**I agree. Following SV's advise, this is just for the rankings. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
***The proposal says for removing rankings and analysis. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:18, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

== Possible resolution to POV dispute ==

Instead of scraping the article altogether, it could be possible to set up seperate pages for different theories. For example, currently this page supports an axiomatic assumption that things cylons say to humans are true, absent evience against it. You could set up a page that operates off of that assumption. You can then set up a seperate page for a different assumptions, for example my opinion that anything cylons say to humans can not be trusted. And so on. That way no one's POV is excluded and we can still have speculation based on the various theories. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:That's needlessly elaborate, and '''BattlestarWiki is not a messageboard'''. ---->I have already put it to vote. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:35, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide an alternative that doesn't exclude some POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:38, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::There ''are'' no POV violations. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::This article supports the POV that cylons are telling the truth to humans. POVs which contradict this assumption are excluded, currently. I'm trying to find a way to fix this, this suggestion is the best I can come up with so far. If you have other suggestions, I would like to hear them. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:01, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::Could everybody quit using the POV and NPOV terms? I think they are just confusing the issue. Couldn't we just report all the "facts" that are presented in canon and let the reader draw their conclusions? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:49, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I agree that this is probably the best path. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:02, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::Mateo I am sorry that this may have caused tension; A) I don't think there's a problem with rankings, just saying "this person has a lot of evidence against them and little alibi: High probability"...much less, people like Adama who we've actually ruled out. I hope the rankings represent a blurring rather than rigid structure (i.e. Low to Moderate) B) There isn't much fundamentally wrong with this page itself, it's for Analysis. While we could debate the rankings thing, on having Analysis at all I really think that's just the nature of the thing. C) '''We've got bigger fish to fry than our own petty squabbles, fellow BSG Fan: I've just heard shocking news that due to an NBC/Writer's Guild of America fight, the BSG Webisodes have been postponed indefinately. Quickly, to the webisdoes article!'''...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::While there's definitely merit in well-researched analysis, I think it's important that we should distinguish our "analysis" content from our "encyclopedic" content. Maybe there could be an encyclopedic version of this page that's just the facts (ma'am), then an "analysis version" (in an analysis namespace) that would be as it is now? If another fan wants to research the same problems under different assumptions, they could start a different analysis article, and use the encyclopedic article as ammunition (but operating under their alternative assumptions). And... damnit. That's why they haven't been released. I wondered if something was up (since they should have been out by now otherwise). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:41, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::Perhaps we could use a Template at the top clearly saying this is an Analysis page?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:31, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::This article ''does'' have "speculation" in the title. I think that suffices. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

My concern is the relationship between Qualifiers and Rankings. Rankings are based on Qualifiers. Qualifiers are based on Assumptions. So if a person has different assumptions, their rankings will be different. Assumptions are [[wikipedia:axiomatic|axiomatic]]. The difference between this Analysis and Anaylsis on episode pages is that the analysis on episode pages is not axiomatic: it doesn't make definitive statements that then influence the rest of the article. This one does. I still would like to resolve this. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:36, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:I think that lays it out more clearly: Rankings are based on Qualifiers. (Going in reverse order): I think the Qualifiers are fine, and the Rankings a logical easy to read summation of their net result. If you don't like the Qualifiers, I can see why you are against the Rankings (as they are based on them).--------->Our Qualifiers are not based on "Assumptions". "Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people" is not an assumption at all, "Cylons probably started infiltrating Colonial society ''en masse'' 2 years ago so someone who's been aronud 20 years can't be a Cylon" is ''Analysis''; a point based on evidence, not "assumption", and Caprica-Sharon's long scene explaining how Cylons themselves are sterile, was presented as fact and fits into place with all other Cylon activities. No, we will not remove Caprica-Sharon's statement from the Qualifiers, as it was presented as really fact and as Joe said above, to doubt everything verges on paranoia. It's a Hypothesis: any good scientific hypothesis bases itself on evidence which is trusted until disproven. I.e. we still call Evolution technically a "theory" but it's based on solid evidence and speculation based on that, analysis, but not wild "Assumptions" of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. With reference to that specific point, we aren't removing the Cylon sterility thing as a qualifier.--->Qualifiersare not based on "Assumptions"; most of this is tentative (save for those people we've ruled out for several reasons), under the "well I wasn't there and didn't ''see'' homo erectus turn into Cro Magnons, but I can pretty well piece together the evidence so I'm not doubting it" train of thought.---->'''Thank you''' for still wanting to resolve this. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:42, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::"It was presented as fact". What does that even mean? A cylon made claims of fact to humans. Saying that this is "evidence" makes the assumption that she is telling the truth. That's a POV, '''by definition'''. There's no dancing around this. This article is extremely POV and you are stiff-arming any attempt to make it encompass more than just your own personal POV. The fact that you say "No, we will not remove Caprica-Sharon's statement from the Qualifiers" shows that you don't want to resolve this and that, in fact, you feel you have more power here than everyone else (you don't).

::There are really only 2 possible ways to make this article neutral: remove all POV qualifiers '''or''' make this a page of facts and then splinter pages for different POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:18, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::: Having thought about this, I think the best measure would be to cover all possible POV on this. One POV for those who believe Sharon telling the truth and those who believe Sharon's not. Further thoughts, concerns, suggestions? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:31, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

:::: I think it's best to break into different pages. I just edited the page and it said it was 33kb and that 32kb was the suggested limit. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:34, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::Editting by section avoids this and constrains your changes to make edit histories more readable, even without comments. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 22:33, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::32kb is the suggested limit for pages due to technical issues with older web browsers, such as IE5 and NS4, if I recall correctly. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:06, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::Think about this article in the long-term encyclopedic view. If the series continues to a logical end, the contents of the page maybe (and likely) rendered moot. I don't if investing a lot of time picking over it is worth it. Anecdotely, I have cited this article a lot on boards, and the arguments have been analysed by non-wiki users and seem to be acceptable. Plus, it has received several complements. One solution maybe the disputed discussion [[Naturalistic science fiction]]. I like that because it forces the "disputer" to put forth logical arguments (and work) to make his/her point. Personally, I think that this is one of best "analytic" articles on the wiki. Just my 2 cubits. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:25, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::TNS is wildly successful by SciFi's standards; it'll be around more than long enough to keep this article moot [http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/m/m0415900.html in the original sense] for quite a while. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:28, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::I was referring to the second meaning of moot (obsolete), because we would know all the agents, especially if the series is able to continue to it's logical event. However, it is possibly we won't. After all my pontificating, I still see nothing wrong with the article. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 05:42, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I just meant that point is likely a long way off. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 09:15, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

== Jammer in the webisodes ==

I disagree with the analysis of the webisodes presented on this page. Jammer was not advocating the Cylon agenda; he was baiting Duck to find out if he was a potential recruit. Jammer's reaction to Tigh's plan to hide arms in the temple is interesting, but hardly damning. Tyrol's oft-repeated line in the season three trailer ("some things you don't do, colonel, even in war") suggests the question of acceptable or unacceptable tactics will be part of the first few episodes of the next season. The scene in the temple might just be a setup for exploring that distinction. There are ten webisodes to go, and attempting to discern Jammer's motives at this point (with the story unfinished) might be a little premature. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 00:26, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
:I think the analysis of the webisodes is inline with the rest of the analysis. It inherently takes a paranoid approach, as most of the entries are meant to convince people someone isn't a Cylon. I certainly consider his behavior in the webisodes suspicious (more the second), particularly in comparision to the "roll the hard six" thing.
:As to leaving it off until The Resistance is finished, I feel that the text is likely to end up more polished if it's incremented and reviewed after each segment. In any case, it seems best to work with all canon material available at any given point. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:46, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

==The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings citation==
First off, '''Summary is not the talk page'''. It is '''not''' a place to discuss previous edits. It is a summary of what '''you''' changed about the page. Not why you think a previous change is invalid. '''That is what the talk page is for'''.

Secondly, simply naming an episode where a supposed reveal takes place is '''not''' a citation. Giving lines of dialogue '''or''' paraphrasing dialogue that takes place, is a citation. The reason I want it to be this specific is because if you are not specific, people can claim cited facts when in fact they are not facts; just someone's interpretation of events. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 10:09, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Humanoid Cylon speculation

2006-09-14T15:05:29Z

Mateo: revert, see talk page,

The [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon's]] transformation into [[Cylon agent|humanoid form]] introduces serious problems for the remnant of humanity known as [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] to identify Cylon operative from human.

This article details plausible speculation on central and supporting characters in ''[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]'' who, based on their behavior, motive, and background, could be a Cylon agent.

=Needed Qualifiers for Speculation=

For a character to be logically considered a possible agent, there are a few established parameters to meet:

* '''The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings.''' For purposes of this article, a pregnancy can be generally established as a disqualifier. With [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|one exception]], Cylon agents have extreme difficulty with human sexual reproduction to the point of effectively infertility{{citation needed}} ([[The Farm]]). If a character has adult, biological children, it automatically excludes them as being a Cylon agent as the procreation of the child and the age of the child both violate the 2nd qualifier. Although humanoid Cylons have, eventually, proven to be capable of reproduction with humans, the birth of the hybrid child [[Hera]] was considered such a seminal event by the Cylons that it seems safe to conclude that no Cylon ever had a child before that point.
* '''The suspect must not have a verifiable family history''' (other than marriage). A parent would known their child from birth (unless otherwise specified), and Cylons are not copies of prexisting humans. This is an expansion of the "confirmed character history" point below.
* '''The suspect cannot be confirmed to have witnessed or participated in the [[Cylon War]].''' This is another expansion of the "confirmed character history" point; the Cylons definitely didn't have humanoid models during the First Cylon War{{citation needed}}, so if someone is confirmed to have participated in the war 40 years ago, that person is not a Cylon, e.g. William Adama and Saul Tigh.
* '''The suspect does not have a reliable history''' involving direct association (i.e. working or personal relationship) with a confirmed human character for '''more than 2 years prior''' to the destruction of the Colonies.

Based on information from the [[Miniseries]], the Cylon agents began their infiltration and integration into Colonial society approximately 2 years before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. If a character has a direct association with a character that cannot be a Cylon agent, that association excludes them since they are older than the stated time that the agents began to integrate themselves into Colonial society. Note that the 2-year period is based on information given by [[Number Six]] to [[Gaius Baltar]]: Their relationship lasted for 2 years prior to the Cylon attack. There is also supporting information that [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer's]] tour of duty in the Colonial Fleet was also approximately 2 years.

According to [[Ron D. Moore]], the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties. '''Cylon agents are NOT copies or clones of any pre-existing humans, living or dead:''' In an October 24th, 2005 [http://www.thefandom.com/Article50.phtml podcast interview] Ron Moore stated that:

:"The idea is not there was one like an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these were...these models of Cylon were developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said, 'Well, you know what, there's really only twelve of you...and these are the twelve.' And then if you look at them, they kind of represent different archetypes of what humanity is."

Moore and the writers could always, of course, change their minds about anything not specifically established within the canon if needed. There is even precedent for retconning facts established within the canon itself, such as the amount of time remaining in the President's term (between [[Bastille Day]] and [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]) or the number of prisoners held aboard the [[Astral Queen]] (between the [[Miniseries]] and [[Bastille Day]].) Nonetheless, based on the qualifiers yet established, each assessment below is marked accordingly with their probability of being a Cylon infiltrator.

=Suspected Cylon infiltrators=
==High probability of being a Cylon==
=== Jammer? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' High

[[Jammer]] has exhibited suspicious actions numerous times. Along with [[Cally]] and [[Socinus]], he serves under Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] on the [[hangar deck]]. Jammer consistently makes remarks that seem to be trying to divide the humans against each other. When it was revealed to the Fleet that Cylons now can look like humans in "[[Litmus]]", he kept arguing that everyone should stop trusting each other and that it was "every man for himself now", while Socinus said that if they didn't trust each other they wouldn't survive. Cally even pointed out that Jammer's kind of thinking is ''exactly'' what the Cylons want: for everyone to become suspicious and paranoid. Jammer keeps doing this through the second season: when Tyrol is accused of being a Cylon in "[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]" he immediately yells at Cally that the Chief must be a Cylon. Whenever Jammer appears he seems to be trying to sow mistrust among the crew. Also, he told the emotionally unstable Cally that she should be angry at "Boomer" (the first Sharon Valerii copy) not himself, for Tyrol's being suspected, and that she should take it up with Boomer. Jammer can then be seen as having manipulated Cally into killing Boomer (Cally need not be a Cylon; Jammer could tell she was suffering from post-traumatic stress after Kobol and that she would go after Boomer if he suggested it to her).

Two of the biggest pieces of evidence against Jammer appear in the episode, "[[Valley of Darkness]]."

#Apollo and his group of marines found Jammer hiding in a small arms locker, completely unharmed, although the room was littered with the corpses of crewmen the Cylons had killed. He claims to have just hid then snuck inside, but perhaps he was already there and the Centurions spared him because they knew he was a Cylon as well. [[Anastasia Dualla]] was also found alive in a room filled with dead crewmen, but she was in the lavatory, which isn't a vital area of the ship, while Jammer was in a small arms locker. Further, Dualla was wounded; she had a light concussion and presumably a Centurion knocked her unconscious, assumed she was dead, and moved on. Jammer was just standing around inside of the weapons locker.
#Before the fight to protect [[Aft Damage Control]], Captain Adama says a phrase of his father's: "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Jammer asks what this means, and Adama explains. To date, no aired episode explains where [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica-Valerii]], a known agent, learns of this phrase, which she uses in a pressing situation in her efforts to defend ''Galactica'' in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]." Unwittingly, it is plausible that Valerii's knowledge of this phrase (and its origin) came from Jammer via the vague but tangible collective knowledge database of the Cylon agents. However, it is also plausible that [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Galactica-Valerii]] heard this phrase sometime prior to her memories being copied into Caprica-Valerii.

Jammer continues to exhibit pessimistic, counterproductive, and morale-draining behavior. When Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] was trying to construct the [[Blackbird]], he vocally tried to convince the other deckhands that it couldn't be done and it wasn't worth trying. He may have done this to undermine the military assets of ''Galactica'': the Cylons may be hoping to wear down ''Galactica's'' Viper numbers through gradual attrition, while because the Cylons have dedicated manufacturing capabilities for Raiders on the [[Cylon homeworld]] and possibly on basestars, Raiders are easily replaceable. With this in mind, the last thing the Cylons would want is for ''Galactica'' to start constructing her own replacement fighters ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).

Jammer's suspicious behavior extends through the first two [[webisodes]], as he talks with [[Tucker Clellan|Duck]] about the proposed [[New Caprica Police]]. To Duck's disgust at the notion, Jammer replys "Some people say it's a good thing... Get the Centurions off the streets, let us patrol them ourselves," tentatively advocating the Cylons' agenda. Of course, this statement is ambiguous, as Jammer is ostensibly "feeling out" Duck for recruitment into Tyrol and Tigh's resistance cell, so his pro-Cylon idea could just be a tactic to draw Duck's opinion out further.

Jammer also advises Tyrol not to be angry about Duck's refusal to join and to give up on recruiting him. Jammer balks at hiding weapons in the temple on [[New Caprica]] as well, although he is overruled by Tigh.

==Moderate probability of being a Cylon==
===Anastasia "Dee" Dualla?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] seems to have a fairly well developed backstory regarding her past; she is a Sagittaron ([[Bastille Day]]), her father disapproved of her joining the military ([[Final Cut]]), but upon closer inspection none of this can be confirmed by a third party: the only source of information about Dualla's past in the series has been Dualla herself. Dualla's position in charge of ''Galactica's'' communications puts her in an ideal position for subversion. In "[[Valley of Darkness]]", Dualla is found in the enlisted head, having suffered a blow to the head from Cylon Centurions that passed through. The Centurions killed everyone else, and it does seem plausible that one merely swiped her in the head, knocking her out, and thus thought she was dead and moved on. However, it still seems odd that she was the only survivor. In addition, Number Six later demonstrated in "[[Downloaded]]" how she was willing to physically damage herself in order to manipulate ''Galactica''-Sharon's sympathy: perhaps Dualla hit ''herself'' in the head, to fake an injury, thus throwing suspicion off of herself. Dualla started a relationship with President Roslin's aide, Billy Keikeya, possibly to gain a foothold in the president's office, and then began a relationship with Lee Adama, CAG of ''Galactica'' and son of the military commander of the entire fleet. Eventually, Apollo was promoted to ''Pegasus'' commander and Dualla left ''Galactica'' to marry him and become his XO, further insinuating herself into the command structure.

=== Felix Gaeta? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

Lt. [[Felix Gaeta]] is in a good position for a Cylon—not conspicuous but nonetheless in a position where he can help the Cylons quite a bit. Gaeta arguably seems to hand something to Boomer in "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]" before she shoots Adama (a frame by frame analysis shows that their hands are not in frame dispite the camera intentionally panning down when he shakes her hand, leaving the question unanswered). However, he did not hand her a gun, because pilots always carry sidearms, and she walked into CIC with it. Gaeta can recognize Cylon devices, and is close to [[Gaius Baltar|Dr. Baltar]]. He admitted to ignoring the Cylon device installed on his console in the [[miniseries]], explaining that he thought it was unimportant. Gaeta has plotted coordinates to a water planet, a Cylon [[tyllium]] base, and [[Kobol]] with uncanny accuracy. He "forgot" to send updated [[emergency jump coordinates]] to the fleet in "[[Scattered]]", leaving ''Galactica'' vulnerable to Cylon electronic attack after having to network the ship [[Computers|computer]] systems together. In "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]" Gaeta helps the Cylon cause by uncovering the ballot tampering which leads to the election of Gaius.

Gaeta's recent behavioral changes from the stress of working at evading the Cylons shows by "[[Final Cut]]" as Gaeta is shown in his interview drunk, smoking, and wearing a new tattoo. By the following episode, "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", Gaeta angrily snaps at Colonel Tigh for giving a difficult order, causing surprise throughout [[CIC]] since Gaeta is normally a calm, reserved officer even under the worst of conditions. Contrast this behavior with Boomer, the ''Galactica'' copy of Sharon Valerii, who still appeared quite alert after 5 continuous days of combat status. Note the following dialogue from the first regular series episode, "[[33]]":

::'''[[Lee Adama|Apollo]]''': Hey, how about you, Boomer? [[Cottle|Doc]] tells me you're holding up better than anybody in the squadron.
::'''Boomer''': I'm tired, like everybody else.
::'''Apollo''': You never seem it.
::'''[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]]''': 'Cause she's a Cylon.
::'''Boomer''': You're just gonna make me come over there and kick your ass, aren't you?

While even Cylon agents develop severe behavioral and physiological issues after extended work and abuse ([[Number Six#Gina|Pegasus]]), Cylon agents appear to be more resilient than humans, which may limit the likelihood of Gaeta's possible Cylon connection. On the other hand, if he were a Cylon, Gaeta's human personality may have finally been overtaxed by that time, suggesting that an actual human might have snapped earlier in their exodus in contrast.

In the end, Gaeta's likelihood as a Cylon operative may be in doubt over one key element: The Cylons appear to have integrated human agents into the Colonies no earlier than 2 years before the events of the Miniseries. Gaeta has served on ''Galactica'' with Commander Adama for three years ([[Miniseries]]). Since humanoid Cylons are not clones of actual humans, the likelihood of Gaeta as a Cylon agent would depend on the start of Cylon agent introduction.

=== Ellen Tigh? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: Maybe (Character over 40 years of age)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Seven-year marriage to [[Saul Tigh]]
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to Moderate

In light of her statistic-defying survival of the Cylon holocaust and her manipulations of her husband during Commander [[William Adama]]'s incapacitation ([[Scattered]] through [[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]), [[Ellen Tigh]]'s actions have demonstrated the possibility that she may be a Cylon agent. For someone who seems so intelligent and far-sighted, she should be well aware that pushing her husband to strong-arm the rest of the Fleet to conform with his (and her) views would only end in chaos. If she ''is'' a Cylon looking to destroy the Fleet from within, then the best weapon in her arsenal is the man she's married to.

In an October 2005 webcast, [[Ronald D. Moore]] indicated that the likelihood of Ellen Tigh being a Cylon was low. Essentially, this was due to the feeling that having her be a Cylon agent would not only be convenient, but unrealistic from a story point-of-view as well. Moore's comments don't eliminate Ellen Tigh from consideration, but reduces the likelihood of this speculation. Some viewers surmise that Moore may have meant that revealing Tigh as a Cylon in her [[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down|debut episode]] in addition to the character's many other complexities, would stretch the overall believability or integrity of the character at that point, but that he was not refering to her actual status as a Cylon or not at the time.

Ellen Tigh's celebrated her seventh wedding anniversary with Saul Tigh in a [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season01/112/deleted1.html deleted scene] from the episode "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]". If the canonicity of this scene stands, then Ellen's likelihood of being an agent drops dramatically. Else, the establishment of their wedding "date" should aid in increasing or reducing speculation on this intriguing character.

==Low probability of being a Cylon==
===Gaius Baltar?===
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifying character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Very low

There is very low chance that [[Gaius Baltar]] is actually a Cylon. He has been a prominent public figure for years. Number Six earnestly wanted to have a hybrid child with him as the biological father and her as the biological mother, but had to change her plans to ''considering'' [[Hera]] to be "their child" even though it is not biologically theirs. Cylons talking amongst themselves in "[[Downloaded]]" continually referred to Baltar as a human.

To review a detailed breakdown of the whys and whatfors of the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon, see [[Baltar as Cylon speculation]]

=== Bell? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

D'anna Biers' [[Bell|cameraman/assistant]] is another possible candidate for a Cylon infiltrator, as he has been shown willingly taking part in the same devious and manipulative activities as D'anna Biers ([[Final Cut]]). Whether he is a Cylon working in tandem with Biers, or just a nosy human journalist following his superior’s equally devious wishes has yet to be determined.

Bell's speculation as a Cylon agent is questionable based on some of his actions in "Final Cut." When he is free of D'anna Biers, he doesn't film sensitive, if seemingly trivial, data. He overlooks the carbon dioxide scrubbers (a potential Cylon infiltrator target). In addition, instead of filming the [[hangar deck]] after the destruction of the two [[Raider]]s, Bell focuses on Apollo's post-flight check. Since Bell has not been seen in the series since this episode, the lack of further appearances all but eliminates the likelihood for this character to be a Cylon agent.

===Cally?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

[[Cally]] shot Boomer in a "Jack Ruby-style" assassination, preventing the Fleet from interrogating her further. While this might benefit the Cylon agenda, Cally had a perfectly understandable reason for doing it, which she has openly stated: she hated Boomer for what she did to Chief Tyrol, hated her for betraying all of their trust and shooting Adama, and simply because she was a Cylon. Indeed, many other characters in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]" ''congratulate'' Cally and say they would have done the same given the chance. Little can be confirmed about Cally's past, not even her first name yet, but this has not pointed to any Cylon origin. Finally, Cally is pregnant with Tyrol's child as of the end of season 2, meaning it is impossible for them both to be Cylons and improbable in the extreme that either of them is.

===Tory Foster?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to Moderate

[[Tory Foster]]'s past is unconfirmed, and she seemed eager to work her way into President Roslin's administration. The odds that another aide with skills like Billy Keikeya would also happen to be alive in the Fleet is also tenuous.

=== Billy Keikeya? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

[[Billy Keikeya]] might also be a Cylon due to the relative lack of confirmation surrounding his character. In a deleted scene in the Miniseries, it is revealed that Roslin met Billy for the first time when she boarded Colonial One to travel to Galactica; thus he presence can only be "confirmed" immediately before the attack, far short of even the 2 years that Number Six and Boomer had infiltrated the Colonies. Virtually nothing can be confirmed about Billy; although he states in the Miniseries that his parents and siblings were living on Picon when it was nuked, we really only have his word for it and no way to confirm that these were actual facts. Everyone just takes Billy's word for it. Billy has also stated (in deleted scenes in "[[Home, Part II]]") that he is an atheist. Again, he could simply be behaving based on implanted false memories that form a fake personality crafted by the Cylons, and it would be an ironic twist if an atheist character was revealed to belong to a race of religious zealots. That being said, the most recently revealed Cylon agent, [[Cavil]], also exhibits atheistic or agnostic tendencies, explicitly stating that "there is no [[God]]" when interrogated by Roslin and Adama.

Billy could be a Cylon that was sent to keep tabs on Laura Roslin during the attack; Roslin was a viable target due to her status as a high-ranking government official. In an interesting deleted scene in "[[Fragged]]" Billy appears in one of Roslin's dreams as a manifestation of her own doubts and fears. In the dream he antagonistically taunts her for her faith in the [[Sacred Scrolls]] and [[Kara Thrace]] then stabs her in the heart with a knife after which she wakes up screaming in terror. Given the prophetic connotations of Roslin's previous dreams and visions this could ''possibly'' be taken as evidence for Keikeya being a Cylon, however like most deleted material its canonicity is tentative at best.

The character of Billy Keikeya dies in the episode, "[[Sacrifice]]." As only Cylon agents can "return from the dead," the argument for Keikeya as a Cylon agent is effectively invalid unless the character appears in a present-time (non-flashback) episode of the series, which would confirm Keikeya's true nature.

===Galen Tyrol?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] was in an illicit relationship with Boomer, and later had recurring nightmares based on his fear that he might also be a Cylon sleeper agent. However, he has served under William Adama on ''Galactica'' for 5 years, and as Adama put it, had he been a Cylon and they wanted the ship to be destroyed, he more than knew how to do it, and should have ''already'' done it by this point. Cally's expected child in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]", ostensibly that of Tyrol's, all but removes suspicion for this character (love does allow human-Cylon pregnancies to occur, however).

=Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons=
The following characters, for individual reasons below, have been disproven from any possibility of being humanoid Cylon sleeper agents.

===Lee "Apollo" Adama===
* Known siblings or adult children: Yes, with qualifier (See "[[Black Market]]")
* Known family members: Yes ([[William Adama]], [[Zak Adama]])
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

In "[[Flesh and Bone]]", a copy of [[Leoben Conoy]], a Cylon agent, grabs [[Laura Roslin]] and tells her, "Adama is a Cylon," prior to his execution. If his statement is true, it leaves doubt on which Adama he is talking about, although Roslin's actions in the next episode, "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]", indicate that she believes Conoy spoke of Commander Adama.

Cylon agents are not copies (clones) of existing people. Evidence from [[Sharon Valerii]]'s and [[Number Six]]'s conversations indicate that humanoid Cylon infiltration began no earlier than 2 years prior to the events of the [[Miniseries]], although their respective backstories may suggest they have been "alive" for many years. As Lee Adama was alive long before this introduction, and his father knew him since he was born and can thus confirm this, the probability that Lee Adama is a Cylon is as low as that of his father.

Information from the episode, "[[Black Market]]" suggests that Adama was to be a father to a child he conceived on Caprica, but he left the unborn child's mother, his lover at the time. Such a pregnancy, if Lee Adama was indeed an agent, would introduce the ability of Cylon ''males'' to sire children (currently, episodes only show that it is possible for a Cylon ''female'' to conceive).

''There are reports of fan fiction with stories involving [[Lee Adama]] as a Cylon. ''Battlestar Wiki'' does not post fan fiction (whole or in excerpts), or speculation generated by these stories. An article's content must (with [[Numerology|some]] [[Toaster|silly]], [[The Battlestar Galactica Drinking Game|non-sequitur]] [[Flashlight|exceptions]]) provide sufficient basis in fact or probability based on aired episode information or other official sources as described in the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad]] project page.''

===William Adama===
* Known siblings or adult children: Yes ([[Lee Adama]] and [[Zak Adama]])
* Known family members: Yes ([[Caroline Adama]] and [[Anne Adama]])
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: Yes (widely-known Veteran)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (Saul Tigh)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Of all the suspected infiltrators, the case against [[William Adama]] appears to be the weakest.

In the Miniseries, Adama seems to know that the Cylon agents have "silica relays" in their brains, and that they would be affected by the storm around [[Ragnar Anchorage]]. This knowledge is not explained, but the [[Number Five]] copy left on the station showed signs of being affected, whereas Adama did not. In "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]", Commander Adama disappears mysteriously and returns with Ellen Tigh. Around the same time, a Cylon Raider shows up. However, this was all explained later in the same episode, when Adama reveals that he was reluctant to openly announce Ellen's sudden appearance because he was afraid she could be a Cylon.

Adama also has exhibited strange behavior, from expressing vague Cylon sympathies (both in his speech in the Miniseries and in his discussion with Tyrol in "[[Home, Part I]]" where he seems to concede that Boomer was more than a machine). While not openly friendly to the Cylons, Adama seems to at least respect them as persons in that he does not treat the Caprica copy of Sharon Valerii inhumanely (despite an attempt at strangling her when they first met), despite what was done to him by the Valerii copy known as "Boomer". While this could indicate a Cylon nature, it's also extremely likely that Adama's strength of character and personality enable him to think that Valerii might actually have changed.

William Adama is the father of two children, [[Lee Adama|Lee]] and [[Zak Adama|Zak]]. Before the conception of Valerii's hybrid child the Cylons have been unable to produce children through sexual reproduction. Further, Adama is, by all accounts, a veteran of the well-documented [[Cylon War]], back at a time where Cylons were purely mechanical and not biosynthetic.

When the recent revelation by Ron Moore that Cylon agents are unique beings and not copies of existing humans is added to this, the likelihood of William Adama as a suspected infiltrator could be all but ruled out. This also throws the validity of Leoben Conoy's final words to Roslin accusing Adama as a Cylon in "[[Flesh and Bone]]" into question (which were almost certainly meant to just spread paranoia).

The strongest convincing evidence against Adama as a Cylon is that we have seen flashbacks of Adama and Saul Tigh set 20 years prior to the destruction of the Colonies, after the first Cylon War. Since Cylon agents aren't copies of humans, it is not possible for Adama (or Tigh) to be Cylon operatives (at least of the type used thus far).

===Samuel Anders===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown (Was Pyramid Ball player but not known for how long)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

As the leader of an anti-Cylon resistance movement on Cylon-occupied Caprica, [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] stands small chance of actually being a Cylon. He was a well known public figure as a sports star, and though this might have only happened recently, it lends credit against the idea that he is a Cylon. In "[[Downloaded]]", while he is unconscious [[Number Three]] and [[Number Six]] refer to him between themselves as a human.

===Helena Cain===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Admiral [[Helena Cain]] may have been ruthless and a danger to the Fleet, but she was a publicly known figure for years. Cain spent years rapidly rising through the ranks all the way up to Admiral. Adama has personally witnessed this rise, which must have taken longer than the 2 year cutoff for likely Cylon agent infiltration as defined in this article.

===Karl "Helo" Agathon===
* Known siblings or adult or hybrid children: Yes ([[Hera]])
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Karl Agathon|Helo]] fathers a Cylon-human hybrid, [[Hera]], with a known Cylon agent, [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Sharon Valerii]]. As Cylon males cannot sire children with Cylon females (per data from "[[The Farm]]"), Helo cannot realistically be a Cylon himself.

===Laura Roslin===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (President [[Richard Adar]])
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

President [[Laura Roslin]] may have prophetic moments, like [[Number Six]] and [[Leoben Conoy]], but she cannot possibly be a Cylon. Roslin was a public figure for 20 years ([[Litmus]]), working with later-President Adar and eventually serving as Secretary of Education: her past is totally confirmed. Cylon agents appear to be resistant to cancer, and Roslin was dying of cancer until she was cured by a blood transfusion from the Cylon-Human hybrid foetus ([[Epiphanies]]).

===Kara "Starbuck" Thrace===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: Yes (alluded to in "[[The Farm]]" by [[Simon]])
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] has been disproven from being a Cylon: [[Simon]] wanted to use Starbuck's egg cells in Cylon/Human hybrid experiments, and it would be totally illogical for him to need to hold her against her will to obtain her genetic material, if the Cylons already have hundreds of copies of a Starbuck-model Cylon to obtain it from. Starbuck's incarceration in a Cylon [[Farms|Farm]] disqualifies her from being a Cylon. Further, reproduction between humanoid Cylons is impossible, and Starbuck would not have been captured for use in human-Cylon hybrid experiments if she was not human.

===Saul Tigh===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: Yes (widely-known Veteran)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Saul Tigh]] is well known as a veteran of the first Cylon War, and has served as a non-obscure officer in the Fleet for decades. In many respects the case against Saul Tigh being a Cylon is similar to that of William Adama's (above).

The strongest convincing evidence against Tigh as a Cylon is that we have seen flashbacks of Tigh and William Adama set 20 years prior to the destruction of the Colonies, after the first Cylon War. Since Cylon agents aren't copies of humans, it is not possible for Tigh or Adama to be Cylon operatives (at least of the type used thus far).

===Tom Zarek===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: Unknown
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (President Adar, publicly known to be held in prison for 20 years)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Tom Zarek]] may seem subversive to the status quo of the Fleet and opposed to President Roslin's administration, but he can't be a Cylon. Zarek has been a well-known terrorist/political dissident for decades. He is widely known for blowing up a government building on Sagittaron, leading to his arrest 20 years ago, and he was presumably a prominent Sagittaron leader for years beforehand. President Adar publicly offered him amnesty if he would renounce his campaign of violence to free Sagittaron and Zarek refused. Due to being such a publicly known figure for so many decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Galen Tyrol

2006-09-14T02:08:30Z

Mateo: added reference

{{Character Data
|photo= Galen Tyrol promo.jpg
|age=
|colony= [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]]
|birthname= Galen Tyrol
|callsign= "Chief" (nickname)
|seen= Miniseries
|death=
|parents= An unnamed Oracle (mother) and a Priest (father).
|siblings=
|children=One son
|marital status= Married to [[Cally Henderson Tyrol]]<ref>In [[Battlestar Galactica: The Resistance#Episode 2|The Resistance episode 2]] Tyrol explained to [[Jammer]] that he, like [[Duck]], also had risks by participating in the resistance because he had a wife and kid.</ref>
|role= Union Organizer, [[New Caprica]]; former Senior NCO, Deck Crew 5, [[Battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]''
|rank= Chief Petty Officer
|actor= [[Aaron Douglas]]
|cylon=
}}

== Biography ==

=== Background ===

'''Chief Petty Officer Galen Tyrol''', serial number 312365, <ref name="serial">[http://www.mediablvd.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16040&view=findpost&p=1890295 "Questions for Aaron Douglas"] messageboard Q&A with actor Aaron Douglas. </ref> is the much-admired and highest ranking NCO remaining aboard ''[[Galactica]]''. He served aboard battlestars from the age of eighteen, including the battlestars ''[[Columbia]]'', ''[[Atlantia]]'', and ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]). He has served under [[William Adama]] on ''Galactica'' for five years ([[Litmus]]), and has considerable respect for the Commander - a feeling that is reciprocated. Indeed, he admires Adama to such a degree that he has modelled his own style of leadership on that of Adama: firm, fair, and willing to go to the fullest degree in support of his crew.

However, when people under his responsibility are injured, threatened or killed, Tyrol becomes rather irrational, angry, and reckless in his actions, to the point of further endangering his people or his reputation with senior officers. Prime examples of his lack of emotional control includes the scenes before the ship venting after the nuke hit and cursing [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] in front of [[William Adama|Commander Adama]] for the vent and loss of 85 of his people ([[Miniseries]]), and saving a mortally-wounded crewmate while leaving himself and [[Cally]] highly vulnerable in "[[Scattered]]". Tyrol's tryst with [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]] and a subsequent cover-up attempt in "[[Litmus]]" resulted in the jailing of Specialist [[Socinus]], who was trying to protect Tyrol.

Originally leading [[Deck Crew 5]], a team of 15 deckhands and specialists, since the Cylon Attack he has become the most senior and experienced NCO on the ''Galactica''.

=== Cylon Attack ===

At the time of the Cylon Attack, as well as leading his deck crew, Tyrol is overseeing the refurbishment and restoration of [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]] Mark II N7242C - the Viper originally flown by William Adama at the time of the [[Cylon War]] ([[Miniseries]]).

Following the attack, with the ''Galactica'' undermanned, Tyrol also performs the function of senior Damage Control officer ([[Miniseries]] / [[Water]]), a role that brings him into conflict with [[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]] after the ''Galactica'' is struck by a Cylon nuclear warhead.

=== Relationship with Sharon Valerii ===

For several months prior to the Cylon attack, and in its aftermath, Tyrol has been engaged in an affair with Lieutenant (JG) [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]], a [[Raptor]] pilot aboard the ''Galactica''. Despite the fact the relationship breaks military protocol, senior officers on the ship turn a blind eye to it, while Tyrol's own crew treat it with fond amusement.

When the water supplies on the ''Galactica'' are sabotaged, Tyrol is placed in an awkward position: by her own admmission, Valerii knows explosives were missing from a small-arms locker - potentially making her a suspect - and he is the principal DC investigator into the cause of the explosions which wreck the water tanks. Torn between love and duty, the situation prompts him to hide evidence and allow a theory that the walls of the tanks simply collapsed from fatigue resulting from damage the ''Galactica'' received from a nuclear warhead in the Cylon attack ([[Water]] / [[Miniseries]]).

Following the sabotage attempt, Valerii is ordered to end her relationship with Tyrol ([[Bastille Day]]) as a part of a general tightening-up of security and discipline on ship, only to have Tyrol's deck crew help the two of them to continue to meet in greater secret ([[Litmus]]).

Tyrol's world is thrown further into turmoil when both he and Valerii become the prime suspects in an investigation into how a Cylon agent (a copy of [[Aaron Doral]]) managed to get aboard the ''Galactica'', kill a guard, steal explosives and them blow himself up in a ship's corridor, almost killing Adama and Tigh ([[Litmus]]). When [[Socinus|one of his own Specialists]] is thrown in the brig for dereliction of duty which may have enabled the Cylon to access a weapons locker and steal the explosives, Tyrol is shocked into re-thinking his relationship with Valerii, and ends it himself.

While they continue to encounter one another professionallly - their work means they can hardly avoid one another - Tyrol and Valerii now have an uneasy distance between each other, and Valerii's actions around a captured Cylon [[Raider]] have begun to disturb Tyrol.

=== Kobol ===

When [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] discovers the planet believed to be [[Kobol]], Tyrol arranges for Socinus' release and later berates the specialist for lying to cover for him. Thereafter, Tyrol is part of the team assembled on the ill-fated recon Kobol on the [[Raptor 1]], which then crashlands near the ruins of the [[Tomb of Athena]]. ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]], [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]])

While Tyrol was the more experienced leader, his non-commissioned status left Lt. [[Crashdown]] in charge of the survivors. When Crashdown blamed [[Tarn]] for leaving a needed med kit behind -- Socinus was injured during the crash and a drug called [[serisone]] was needed to help him breathe -- Tyrol stepped in, recommending that he and Cally accompany Tarn. After successfully retrieving the kit from the Raptor crash site and heading back to the party, the trio was ambushed and Tarn was the only one killed. ([[Scattered]]) Eventually, he and Cally make it back to the party, only to find out that it is too late. With no other alternative, Tyrol euthanized Socinus with an overdose of [[morpha]] from both medkits. ([[Valley of Darkness]])

Upon discovering that the Cylons are setting up an anti-aircraft missle battery, Crashdown plans a strike to take the unit (and its accompanying [[DRADIS]] dish) out of operation. While the others of his party, notably Baltar and Cally, attempt to voice their indignation of such a plan, Tyrol firmly reminds them that Crashdown is in charge. Despite Tyrol's own misgivings of how the plan is to be executed, they follow through to the point right before the attack.

When it became clear that there were five Cylons at the battery, Cally refused to act as a distraction. Tyrol attempted to diffuse the situation by trying to state that the DRADIS dish was undefended; all that needed to be done was to destroy that, and the turret could not automatically target any incoming [[SAR]] operation. Crashdown has a breakdown and irrationally threatens to kill Cally, prompting Baltar to kill Crashdown.

As the command officer, per se, Tyrol later destroyed the DRADIS dish as the Cylons pursued them towards it. Tyrol then made a stand against the Cylons, screaming and firing his pistol at them. The Cylons were all killed; a surprised Tyrol turned around and saw that a [[Raptor]], preserved by Tyrol's destruction of the dish, had destroyed the Centurions. ([[Fragged]]).

=== After Kobol ===

Tyrol was arrested and interrogated by Colonel Tigh, due to his relationship with Commander Adama's would-be assassin. Tigh accused him of being part of the plot to kill Adama, throwing him in the same cell as Valerii. In order to extract information from Valerii, Baltar injected a drug that induced a systemic shutdown of Tyrol's organs. (This was during an alleged attempt to draw blood from Tyrol for Baltar's Cylon detector.) After extracting the number of Cylons in the Fleet from Valerii's subconscious, Tyrol was spared a painful death -- and was eventually proven to be a bona-fide human.

Tyrol was present when his own deckhand, Cally, killed Valerii, as Tyrol accompanied the security escort to Valerii's testing cell ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]). This act caused Tyrol to withdraw more from interaction with his own staff, many of which were already treating him coldly from his interaction with the now-confirmed Cylon copy of Valerii.

As with many on ''Galactica'', the stress of working without relief in sight or with little hope began to take its toll on Tyrol. For him, the challenge of keeping the old Vipers running with very few spare parts and sometimes extensive damage became too much to manage. Under pressure from [[CAG]] [[Lee Adama]] to keep his Vipers flying, and mostly because he had little else to do, he scribbled out a design for a new fighter and began to assemble it from basic metals and parts ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). Initially, his flight crews were skeptical that the Chief's project was anything but a pipe dream. But word soon spread as the fuselage formed and Tyrol's dream became reality. While Colonel Tigh was visibly against the project at first, Commander Adama noticed that the project, for whatever outcome it might yield, gave the crew something to strive for, something to hope for, and tacitly allowed off-duty crew to work on the project. Many, including [[Anastasia Dualla]] from the [[CIC]], and [[Kara Thrace]], lent a hand.

Tyrol's group was stuck when trying to place a skin on the new fighter, since spare parts were reserved for the Vipers. But Helo suggested carbon composite materials as an alternative to cover the ship. This solved the covering but added a significant new ability: Stealth. The carbon composites would make the new fighter practically invisible to [[DRADIS]] detection.

After the ship's [[Logic bomb]] crisis, the new fighter, named the [[Blackbird]], was given a trial flight by Kara Thrace, with very good results. In a ceremony, President Roslin christened the fighter, and Tyrol revealed the nickname of the fighter in honor of the President: ''Laura''.

=== Helo's Return ===

After the return of [[Karl Agathon]] and another version of Sharon Valerii, who happens to be pregnant with Agathon's child, the two attempt to reconcile their feelings for the biological creation. Helo and Tyrol eventually have a fistfight with lots of namecalling over what the Sharons were, but in reality, both were upset over the fact that the two Cylon copies were real people that they loved despite the reality of what they were ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]), leading them to what amounted to an uneasy truce.

Later on, after the appearance of Admiral [[Helena Cain]] and the advanced [[Mercury-class]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', he and Agathon stop Lt. [[Alistair Thorne]] from raping Sharon and Tyrol accidentally kills Thorne in the process. Tyrol and Agathon are summarily arrested and transfered to ''Pegasus'' for court martial, against Commander Adama's objections. However, Admiral Cain's "court martial" is over before Adama even knew it began, and she sentenced both to be executed for murder and treason. This prompted Adama to launch Vipers and a Raptor loaded with a marine strike team to recover them both ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]).

Helo and Tyrol receive a stay of execution through the efforts of [[Laura Roslin]] while the two battlestar commanders prepare to destroy the [[Resurrection Ship]] and its Cylon attack fleet that has followed ''Galactica''. Tyrol admits to his difficulty with dealing with the existence of the second Sharon, and tells Helo that he's got to "let it go", an idea that Helo supports, both understanding each other's take on the situation.

The two prisoners are seen receiving two sets of visitors, one welcome, one not. First, Lieutenant Adama visits them to tell them how close ''Galactica'' came to a shooting war with ''Pegasus'' ([[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]), asking the two, "Just how many kinds of stupid ''are'' you?" A day or so later, Specialists [[Vireem]] and [[Gage]] bind and beat the two prisoners in retaliation for the death of Lieutenant Thorne. [[Executive officer]] [[Jack Fisk]] comes to break up the beating, but refuses the prisoners' thanks as he was fond of Thorne himself.

After the escaped Cylon agent [[Gina]] escapes and shoots Admiral Cain, killing her, Tyrol and Helo are released and return to ''Galactica.'' Both Tyrol and Helo visit Sharon Valerii at her specialized cell. She happily greets Helo, but completely ignores Tyrol. He gets the hint and soon leaves the room, still unable to recover from the memory of the Sharon he knew as "Boomer."

=== Depression and Suicidal Yearnings ===
Tyrol also begins to experience a recurring nightmare in which he jumps from the upper portion of the flight deck to his death. [[Cally]] finds him asleep but twitching on the ''Galactica'' deck, but when she attempts to wake him, he attacks her in a frenzied rage, beating her savagely.

Deeply distressed by what he had done, Tyrol requested counselling with a priest, and was assigned [[Cavil|Brother Cavil]]. After some time with Tyrol, Cavil identifies the source of Tyrol's anxiety as arising from fear that he is a [[Cylon agent|Cylon sleeper agent]], much like [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]] was. Tyrol points out that Sharon was totally convinced by her programming that she was human; Tyrol is haunted by the fear that it was impossible to truly know if you were a Cylon or not. Cavil assures him that he was not, quipping that he knew "because I'm a Cylon and I've never seen you at any of the meetings.".

[[Cavil]] tells him to get back to work, which is where his real family is, and argues that they, [[Deck Crew 5|the deck crew]], love him, "even Cally, ''especially'' Cally" ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]). Tyrol was subsequently responsible for exposing [[Cavil]] as a Cylon agent when he recognized him as one of the returnees from the rescue mission to [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]]. Upon realizing this, Tyrol tackled Cavil, called for security, and stated 'Code Blue.'
[[Image:Tyrol LDYBII.JPG|thumb|Tyrol as Union President ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]])]]
===Union President===
A year later, Tyrol lived in [[New Caprica City]] and was the president of the Worker's Union, a vocal opponent of President Baltar's administration. By this point, he appeared to have married Cally, who was pregnant 380 days after settling on the planet. Tyrol and Cally witnessed the arrival of the Cylons on the planet, and went to [[Kara Thrace]] for guidance. She tells him to "fight them until we can't." ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]])

== Notes ==

*[[Wikipedia:Galen|Galen]] is the name of a famed Greek doctor, who was first to argue that the mind was in the brain not the heart. This may be construed as irony, given Tyrol's part in the ongoing story.
*Tyrol's first name, Galen, was first revealed in Ron D. Moore's blog during Season 1, but it was not mentioned on screen until the Season 2 episode "[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]".
*[[Wikipedia:Tyrol|Tyrol]] (or Tirol) is the name of a region divided between western Austria and northern Italy.
*Ron D. Moore stated in an [http://www.nowplayingmag.com/content/view/2212/2/| interview with Now Playing Magazine] on 16 Sept, 2005 that Chief Tyrol is a Gemenon. This is in keeping with previously established facts about him: Gemenons are very religious, and Tyrol's father was a priest and his mother was an oracle.
*Ron Moore explains in the DVD commentary for the [[Miniseries]] that Chief Tyrol was originally supposed to be a fairly small role, and in the first script of the Miniseries he only had about 15 lines. However, Aaron Douglas was so good at ad libbing new lines for scenes as production moved foward that Moore kept writing him into a bigger character. Going into season 1, Tyrol would originally have been defined by his relationship to Boomer, with suspicion that she might be a Cylon only coming out towards the end of the season. However, instead of this Boomer and Tyrol's relationship became strained and ended early in season 1, and Tyrol was expanded as a character not simply defined by Boomer.

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Tyrol, Galen]]
[[Category:Characters|Tyrol, Galen]]
[[Category:Characters (RDM)|Tyrol, Galen]]
[[Category:People from Gemenon|Tyrol, Galen]]
[[Category:RDM|Tyrol, Galen]]

[[es:Galen Tyrol]]

Talk:Galen Tyrol/Archive 1

2006-09-14T01:50:53Z

Mateo: /* Married? */

I was re-watching ''Blade Runner'' (which of course stars Edward James Olmos) and noticed that there's a character in it who's a mechanic named Tyrol. Makes you wonder...[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 22:42, 14 Mar 2005 (EST)

== Interesting... ==

I'll have to watch ''Blade Runner'' again and catch that...

Although I wouldn't be surprised if the name, somehow, came from that movie. As some of the elements (such as the "replicants" theme and the weapons) were pretty much inspired by ''Blade Runner''. [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:38, 15 Mar 2005 (EST)

:I remember hearing that Tricia Helfer based Number Six's behavior on the replicant woman Pris from ''Blade Runner'', after having watched the movie for the first time the night before filming started.[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 22:45, 15 Mar 2005 (EST)

== First name? ==

When did Tyrol get a first name? ([[User:Alphaboi867|Alphaboi867]] 14:27, 22 Mar 2005 (EST))

== From RDM ==

The name comes from both the official Sci-Fi Channel BSG website and RDM's blog.

He's not been called by his first name, "Galen", on the show itself. At least not in the first season.

RDM does go on to state that Tyrol is the only one with a first name; Gaeta and Dualla don't have official first names yet. --[[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:07, 22 Mar 2005 (EST)

I'm wondering why he is refered to as Tyrol (such as in the episode guides) when most of the time, he is refered to as 'the chief' or Chief petty officer (Tyrol). Boomer is refered to by her callsign, not Valerii.--[[User:Radicaledward|Radicaledward]] 03:09, 10 Aug 2005 (EDT)

==Tyrol's Due For a Bitchslap==

After watching the first season 2 episode (''[[Scattered]]'') I realized that Tyrol really loses it when other lives or their reputations are in danger. Guarantee that he is going to get flak as well as serious scrutiny when he returns to the ship with the truth of Boomer revealed. He really needs some rational control and see the big picture of things, and also let his crew make mistakes rather than react carelessly. Brilliant chief, but not the brightest. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 02:06, 16 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== Union Meeting Picture ==

We really need to get a screencap of him during the union speech. --[[User:Deadlygopher|Deadlygopher]] 22:29, 15 March 2006 (CST)

== Highest Ranking NCO ==

Where in the show did it say that he was the senior NCO? I thought I heard it on the show too, but I'd just like to know for sure. If he is the most senior NCO, could this mean there's only one Chief on the Galactica or that he may actually be a Senior or Master Chief and that there are other "lesser" Chief Petty Officers in the ship?

I can't imagine the Galactica having a one-man goat locker, but then again it's a fictional military, not the US Navy. Either any of that or I'm just missing something ;) --[[User:Marty4286|Marty4286]] 03:01, 22 August 2006 (CDT)

:They stated in the Miniseries that ''Galactica'' is not a normal ship; it's about to be decomissioned. It's only got about half of it's full crew compliment (2,600 as opposed to 5,000). A normal ship might have more, but as ''Galactica'' is about to be decomissioned and not running at full capacity, Tyrol is the Chief Petty Officer and highest ranking NCO. I don't think he's a Master Chief but that's simply a formality of rank; he's still the highest ranking guy on the ship. Meanwhile, in "[[Litmus]]" Adama stated that he is the highest ranking NCO. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:08, 22 August 2006 (CDT)
::Actually, he doesn't say EXACTLY that...:
::"You're the most experienced non-commissioned officer we have left."
::Experience does not always equal rank (especially if you're not willing to play politics). However, it at least provides time-in-grade within a rank. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:14, 22 August 2006 (CDT)

==Married?==
I don't recall them saying that Cally and Chief were married? All I remember was that Cally was pregnant at the end of 2x20. That doesn't mean marriage. Was there a piece of dialogue I missed maybe? If so, please add it to the article using <nowiki><ref></ref></nowiki>, thanks.
: He's married. This is confirmed in the [[Battlestar Galactica: The Resistance]] webisodes, particularly the second one when Tyrol and [[Jammer]] attempt to recruit [[Tucker Clellan]] a.k.a. "Duck". -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:47, 13 September 2006 (CDT)
::Ok, I just rewatched it and he said that he had a wife and kid. I will add a reference. Can you give me the names of the other two characters in that scene? I don't know who they are. thanks. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:50, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Galen Tyrol/Archive 1

2006-09-14T01:43:36Z

Mateo: question

Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques

2006-09-14T01:41:14Z

Mateo: /* The international webisode question */

{{project|Official Communique's|image=BSG WIKI Official CrewCast.png|shortcut=BW:OC}}

Members of '''''Battlestar Wiki''''': This page is to coordinate all questions to any official members of the cast or crew of "[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]." Please sign your question after you are done. the "summary" of the question should be be first, if any, and then the questions, in short form, should be placed at the bottom. This is to not confuse people and to keep the quetions distictive.

Cast/Crew: These are questions we are seeking from you. If you have the time, please answer them as best you can. We will move these questions/answers to the correct page once they have been done. You can also check out ''[[:Category:Seeking Official Information]]'' for larger items - particularly pictures.

All questions which have been previouslly answered can be found on the archive pages. Questions get moved here once items and questions seeming from the issue have stopped.
{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 01
| number = 1
| items = {{archive-item|01|Other concerns about interview text in "Final Cut"}} {{archive-item|01|3 Raptor pilot names}} {{archive-item|01|Tie-in Material}} {{archive-item|01|Helo Rank}} {{archive-item|01|Colonial One and One}} {{archive-item|01|Hadrian in "Valley of Darkness"}} {{archive-item|01|Scar}} {{archive-item|01|Rebirth Room}} {{archive-item|01|Restraints on Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded"}} {{archive-item|01|"Radar" gaffe in "The Hand of God"?}} {{archive-item|01|Resurrection Ship}} {{archive-item|01|"Skin Jobs"|end=Y}}
|}}
{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 02
| number = 2
| items = {{archive-item|02|Resources}} {{archive-item|02|Red Line}} {{archive-item|02|Human sacrifice}} {{archive-item|02|Centurion armor}} {{archive-item|02|Tom Zarek / Ellen Tigh involvement}} {{archive-item|02|"Caprica-Six"}} {{archive-item|02|Cylon Homeworld}} {{archive-item|02|Squadron numbers}} {{archive-item|02|Galactica Chain of Command}} {{archive-item|02|Timeline}} {{archive-item|02|Guns nomenclature|end=Y}}
|}}
{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 03
| number = 3
| items = {{archive-item|03|No HUD's in Vipers?}} {{archive-item|03|FTL and the cylons}} {{archive-item|03|Sleeper Agents}} {{archive-item|03|Galactica's Armor Skin}} {{archive-item|03|SkyOne Biography Canonicity}} {{archive-item|03|Basestar losses in Res Ship II}} {{archive-item|03|Webisode series}} {{archive-item|03|Scar Podcast Transcribed}} {{archive-item|03|Caprica}} {{archive-item|03|"Cally Henderson"?!}} {{archive-item|03|Cally vs Caprica-Sharon}} {{archive-item|03|Tyrol's Pegasus service}} {{archive-item|03|Helmets}} {{archive-item|03|RE: Military Ships|end=Y}}
|}}
{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 04
| number = 4
| items = {{archive-item|04|Exodus! v. Exodus, Part I}} {{archive-item|04|"Sacrifice" question}} {{archive-item|04|Webisodes in Crisis?!}} {{archive-item|04|Squadron numbers}} {{archive-item|04|Pegasus (Extended Version)}} {{archive-item|04|Luciana Carro: Casting; pronunciation of her name; Kat in "Final Cut"|end=y}}
|}}

{{Newsection link}}

__TOC__

==Episode titles==

Your mention of "Exodus" brings up another point: BattlestarWiki has a news policy where we don't trust any news that cannot be sourced back to a cast or crewmember...the result being we don't trust some news even from TVGuide or the respectable www.gateworld.net because we think they're just repeating unsourced information which might be wrong. As you can see on our list of [[Season 3]] episodes, we've resorted to calling certain episodes "[[Episode 3.1]]" in order to err on the side of caution. As a result, we've currently listed:

*[[Episode 3.1]] -- written by Ronald D Moore, Dir by Sergio Mimica-Gezzan
*[[Episode 3.2]] -- written by Ronald D Moore, Dir by Sergio Mimica-Gezzan
*[[Episode 3.3]] -- two parts, written by David Weddle & Bradley Thompson, Dir by Felix Acala (Part 1) Part 2 is technically unassigned right now.
*[[Episode 3.4]] -- written by Mark Verheiden, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Episode 3.5]] -- written by Anne Cofell Saunders, Dir by Jean de Segoznac
*[[Episode 3.6]] -- written by Michael Angeli, Dir by Bill Eagles
*[[Hero]] - name confirmed (and written by) David Eick, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Unfinished Business]] -name confirmed by Grace Park - written by Michael Taylor, Dir by Bob Young
*[[The Passage]] -name confirmed by Jane Espenson, Dir by Michael Nankin
*[[Episode 3.10]] - written by Mark Verheiden, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Episode 3.11]] - written by David Weddle & Bradley Thompson, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Episode 3.12]] - written by Michael Taylor, Dir by Edward James Olmos
*[[Episode 3.13]] - written by Michael Angeli, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Episode 3.14]] - written by Mark Verheiden
*[[Episode 3.15]] - written by Anne Cofell Saunders
:: Please keep in mind that these credits have not yet been confirmed by the [[Wikipedia:Writers Guild of America|WGA]] or the [[Wikipedia:Directors Guild of America|DGA]]. Episodes 3.12 is about to go into preproduction. Eps 3.13-3.15 are in various stages of the pipeline. The directors have been assigned but - this is TV - anything can change. Eps 3.1 & 3.2 were merged to form a two-hour premiere episode, and 3.3 broken was into two episodes, which I guess technically makes them 3.2 & 3.3 -- but numbering is something I'll leave to you. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 20:32, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

Like I said, many reputable websites have listed the names of the first 5 episodes (though they didn't confirm their source, so we didn't list them) as "Occupation", "Precipice", "Exodus", "Collaborators", and "Torn".

:: I can confirm that those are the titles on the scripts. None of them are final. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 20:32, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:::Chances of a change? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 20:35, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

::::always. "Crossroads" became "The Resistance." It can blow at any seam. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 20:37, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

'''Without asking for any information that is an actual spoiler''' (if something is a spoiler and cannot be revealed, please just say so) what are the names of the Season 3 episodes? (btw, do you know who wrote and directed some of these?) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:48, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
::It's wise to avoid nailing titles down because the titles can (and do) change up to the date they air. I'll get back to you on the rest of this. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 15:47, 26 July 2006 (CDT)

BTW, Ron Moore just cleared up that "Exodus is a two parter" thing in the blog:
:"In another of our patented feats of editorial derring-do, we've taken what was to be episode 3, "Exodus" and crafted two episodes from it, thereby obviating the need to shoot one more show. As it currently stands, we will be opening Season Three with a two-hour premiere of what were originally two stand-alone episodes, "Occupation" and "Precipice" ("Occuprice," as it were) then resume airing normal one hours with "Exodus Part One." Confused? Good, that's the way we like it. Gotta keep the audience guessing." I'm still sorting through this...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:01, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

How could "Exodus, Part II" not have a director assigned yet?

:: I'm reading this from the in-house script status report - "Unassigned" just means his deal hadn't been struck at the time the report was generated. Directing credit is turf of the DGA. I believe the contractual obligation is that Felix must shoot the additional material needed for the two eps, unless he chooses to do otherwise. We're hoping his schedule will permit it, because he did a great job on the initial shoot. But this still leaves the official credit for the ep blank at the moment. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 16:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

Haven't the first half of the episodes already been filmed?

::There are about eight minutes of material we still need to shoot to make both of them work. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 16:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

Thank you for this...incredible boon of information. Excellent that you and David got to write Exodus. I can only imagine that it can be best described by the phrase "Stuff's gonna 'splode"; looks like lots of fighting. Remember, the enemy's gate is down...

::Mr. Rymer's dailies are awesome. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 16:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

Anyway, I want to make sure I got this correct:
*[[Occupation]] - Episode 1 - written byRon Moore, directed by Sergio Mimica-Gezzan
*[[Precipice]] - Episode 1.5 (aired the same night, same writer/director team)
*[[Exodus, Part I]] - Episode 2 - written by Thompson & Weddle, director Felix Acala
*[[Exodus, Part II]] - Episode 3 - written Thompson & Weddle, director Felix Acala
*[[Collaborators]] - Episode 4 - written by Mark Verheiden, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Torn]] - Episode 5 -written by Anne Cofell Saunders, Dir by Jean de Segoznac
*[[A Measure of Salvation]] - Episode 6 - written by Michael Angeli, Dir by Bill Eagles? RDM keeps calling Hero episode 7, but more than 6 episodes were listed before it above.
::That's because you're counting Occupation and Precipice as two eps. Which they used to be, but they will air as one massive season premiere. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 16:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
*[[Hero]] - Episode 7 (Ron and David keep referring to this as "Episode 7", so I think this one is in sync) written by David Eick, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Unfinished Business]] - Episode 8 - written by Michael Taylor, Dir by Bob Young
*[[The Passage]] - Episode 9 (confirmed at the moment) writer Jane Espenson, Dir by Michael Nankin
*[[The Eye of Jupiter]] - Episode 10 - Christmas break cliffhanger two part episode. written by Mark Verheiden, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Rapture]] - Episode 11 - written by David Weddle & Bradley Thompson, Dir by Michael Rymer (This is the second half of the cliffhanger)
*[[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]] - Episode 3.12 - written by Michael Taylor, Dir by Edward James Olmos
*[[Episode 3.13]] - written by Michael Angeli, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Episode 3.14]] - written by Mark Verheiden, Dir by Hardy
*[[Episode 3.15]] - written by Anne Cofell Saunders, Dir Garcia
*[[Episode 3.16]] - written by David Weddle & Bradley Thompson, Dir Nankin
*[[Episode 3.17]] - written by Michael Angeli, Dir Mimica-Gizzan
*[[Episode 3.18]] - written by Michael Taylor, Dir Michael Rymer
*[[Episode 3.19]] - Dir Michael Rymer, written by Mark Verheiden & possibly Ron Moore.
:: directors added for eps 14-19 - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 13:28, 23 August 2006 (CDT)
::Correct as noted, to the best of my knowledge today - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 16:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
::3.16 & 3.17 added - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 21:08, 9 August 2006 (CDT)
::It now looks as if Michael Angeli is flying solo for episode 17. Added Mark & maybe Ron to Ep 3.19 - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 17:34, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

:::Thank you for all the delightfully authoritative information. I don't mean to be a bother, but it's in my nature to nitpick. Is "Taking A Break from All Your Worries" intentionally cased like that, or should it be "Taking a Break from All Your Worries" like the normal convention (assuming that's ''a'' the article)? --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:47, 10 August 2006 (CDT)
::::The actual casing (from the title page on the Full Yellow Production Draft) is Taking a Break From All Your Worries. I have no idea what Michael Taylor has in mind with that. But assume that he has a plan... - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 15:51, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

Thanks. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:07, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

Thank you, sir. This entire concept of having "19" episodes, with the first being a super-episode which audaciously defies to be categorized as a mere "two part episode".....seems entirely fitting with RDM's essay on "[[Naturalistic science fiction]]", which set out that the show would break the old habits in all respects. Thanks. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:09, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

:I want to add my thanks too. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:23, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:Bouns. Thanks for the tips and clarifiing some data. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:38, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:: de nada. Y'all are doing a good thing here. BTW, just found out that Felix is doing the additional shooting for Ep 3. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 20:35, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Just make sure you get the word.. that we want at least 10 seasons. That's about 50k pages. :D --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:16, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
::::Well okay, but personally I would wish the production team to "make the best stories possible", rather than just for a long time; I'd rather have one season of BSG, then not even get season two, than have a guarantee of 7 years and thus a repeat of Star Trek where they just kept it going until they bled it white. No, I'd rather see 5 trailblazing years of episodes which are practically small movies (like Hand of God).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:30, 30 July 2006 (CDT)

Will "Occupation / Precipice" really be one two-hour episode, or two episodes shown together? As in having two intros.
And will there be an episode 3.20, or is 3.19 the finale?
--[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:21, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

::I have not seen the transition yet, but I believe it will be one episode. Which is why Episode 19 is the season 3 finale. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 17:34, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

==Laurette Spang?==
There has been news passing around that [[Laurette Spang-McCook|Laurette Spang]], who played [[Cassiopeia]] on the Original Series, has been playing e-mail tag with [[David Eick]] about a possible role on the Re-imagined Series. Has this progressed beyond a theoretical thing and into an actual part being worked on? Or is this still just an idea David was batting around? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:03, 10 August 2006 (CDT)

::The contents of David Eick's e-box are WAY above my pay grade. :) - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 13:38, 31 August 2006 (CDT)

:::I'd still like a confirm from Ron about the Jane Seymour role, which she was apparently offered for Pegasus and turned down. I know... different TOS actor. (Jane and Laurette were my favorite TOS ladies) On top of that, there's those persistent Anne Lockhart cameo stories which seem to pop up like the Beatles or Led Zeppelin reunion rumors. David (Weddle, not Eick) told me that they talked about Seymour as a prototype for D'Anna Biers but that's about as much he knew on the subject. But I'm one of those that never lets an inquiry die untli I've gotten to the bottom of it... ;-) --[[User:Larocque6689|Larocque6689]] 21:16, 31 August 2006 (CDT)

== Episode Transcript Permission Contact ==
An interest has been expressed to host episode transcripts here, using inline links to link the episode content to the relevent articles here. Before undertaking such an effort, we would want to get (written) permission from the appropriate powers that be. Could you point us in the right direction as to who we could contact for such permission? If you are comfortable giving us direction (but not posting it here) feel free to [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Steelviper email myself] or any of the other admins (especially [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Peter_Farago Peter Farago], our Copyright Specialist). We appreciate any help in this regard, and this is the type of project that will NOT proceed unless we get an official "green light". We worried enough about the issues with the podcast transcripts... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:16, 11 August 2006 (CDT)

:You see there are actually websites that ''already'' have transcripts (fan-made) and we refer to them alot (though they're less than perfect, of course, and we have to rewatch things on our own often, to make sure), and eventually we said "Why not just recopy them here, to move towards making this the one stop for all episode info?" but we thought we'd run into legal troubles....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 12:12, 11 August 2006 (CDT)
::This sounds like a pretty good idea, I mean this is a nonprofit organization, what possible money can we get from just hosting scripts of the episodes. If NBC asks to cease and desist, why not just do it until they tell us not too? --[[User:Volostheguardian|Volostheguardian]] 14:20, 12 August 2006 (CDT)
:::Why put the effort into something and then have to delete it? :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 14:23, 12 August 2006 (CDT)
:::While I understand and appreciate the "better to ask forgiveness than permission" mentality (especially in its kinship to the "be bold" attitude), how can we expect others to respect our license (Creative Commons) if we ourselves are willing to violate the copyright of others? Especially the copyright of the people responsible for making the content that we document/describe/summarize (something akin to biting the hand that feeds you). I'd love to see the episode transcripts here (in full linkified glory), but I'd rather not jeopardize the integrity of the wiki and expose it to legal risk, especially only to host content that is already easily available to those interested. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:25, 12 August 2006 (CDT)
::::You know what, I'll start my own BattlestarWiki, and it'll be called CertainlY cooLer then that Other battlestarwiki Nonsense, or C.Y.L.O.N. for short and I'll host scripts on there and disregard NBC. --[[User:Volostheguardian|Volostheguardian]] 01:33, 13 August 2006 (CDT)

==Cancellation Rumor==

The rumor is circulating that S4 is in jeopardy along with "Caprica." Given that series are always under a "ratings gun" and concerned caused by the cancellation of SG-1, if there is any truth to the rumor, is there something as fans that we can do now? --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 07:36, 23 August 2006 (CDT)
:There was also a rumor that the show would move to Tuesday nights, but that hasn't materialized. While the cancelation of SG-1 raises concerns about ratings and budget A) it's the top rated show on the channel B) It won a Peabody award and critics love it C) They've got a real chance to win at next year's Emmys, when the old shows which filled up this years (West Wing, Sopranos, Six Feet Under, Commander in Chief, etc.) will all be gone and not fill up the nominations. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 09:34, 23 August 2006 (CDT)

::::Sorry, I have no knowledge of SciFi executive decisions - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 13:38, 25 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::Thanks, I sort of asked in a panic. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 14:05, 25 August 2006 (CDT)

== The role of the Marines. ==

When will we see a bigger role played by the Marines and avoid embarrasments like Starbuck's matrix attempt in Sacrifice? [[User:Panther|Panther]] 18:53, 23 August 2006 (CDT)
:Ron already said in the blog that he was embarrased about using Starbuck as "just happening to also be a sniper" in "[[Bastille Day]]". Also in the podcasts Ron has said that they dropped Corporal Venner as a recurring Marine character because fans weren't that intrested in that, but as a really religous Gemenon and a Marine, I actually kind of ''was'' interested in seeing him as a recurring character...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:20, 23 August 2006 (CDT)
::I wasn't phased by her being a marksman but a "sniper" is a different ballgame. Sniping is more than shooting. Back on topic, I just want to see a Marine character of some importance on the show. I think too many shows go the way of PBI. [[User:Panther|Panther]] 11:41, 24 August 2006 (CDT)
:: Did RDM really say that? Sucks, 'cause I liked Venner. Honestly, I haven't read a single post where fans stated they weren't interested in a recurring Marine. And even if - isn't Ron always (rightly) claiming that BSG ain't a democracy? --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 14:42, 24 August 2006 (CDT)

The writers room has discussed having a continuing Marine character more than once, but thus far there's been no compelling story reason for doing so. So, if it is to happen, the character would arrive in a minor role and evolve the way Kat did in Luciana's capable hands. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 13:53, 25 August 2006 (CDT)

:True. I wonder though if, in Lay Down Your Burdens, the ground rescue mission should have been commanded by a Marine who is probably trained for that sort of warfare. :D
:[[User:Panther|Panther]] 01:50, 27 August 2006 (CDT)

::If we had a Marine officer as colorful as Starbuck, it probably would have. :) - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 13:00, 31 August 2006 (CDT)

== Relations between the Colonial President and the Colonial Military ==

I was wondering ever since the Miniseries what the is the legal relationship between the president and military. Does the president have CINC powers or is it a loose relationship whereby the military is fairly independent but is fully dependent on the state it serves? I ask this because it seems that Roslin hasn't shown any power over the military, and Adama though he had a legitimate reason for a military coup. I'm thinking if Roslin had CINC powers Adama would have been less inclined to do so.
[[User:Panther|Panther]] 17:40, 27 August 2006 (CDT)

::The best answer I can give is to have you check out the deal Roslin made with Adama in the miniseries. The two leaders are well aware of the new order imposed by the collapse of the Twelve Colonies. Adama has the guns and the loyalty of the only military force remaining. Fortunately, he believes in the ultimate authority of law -- unless it conflicts with his own view of military necessity. The relationship of civilian and military has been fraught with difficulties and misunderstandings. Roslin's true power appeared when she escaped detention aboard Galactica and went back to Kobol for the Arrow of Apollo, and Adama bowed to the Rule of Law by going with the majority in settling New Caprica. We'll see how this uneasy relationship continues to develop in Season 3 - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 12:55, 31 August 2006 (CDT)

== S.F.M. ==

Anastasia Dualla mentions in "Bastille Day" that the name of Tom Zarek's group was the S.F.M. What does this acronym stand for? It seems likely to mean "Sagittaron Freedom Movement", but we'd like to be sure. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:40, 31 August 2006 (CDT)

:::You'll hear more of them in Season 3 -- maybe. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 17:58, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

==Rank Insignia==
This is a minor question but one that I've had in the back of my mind for awhile, especially while working on the uniform and rank pages here. In the Miniseries, Boomer's Raptor is labeled "JRLIEUTENANT" for her rank. Assuming this is the Lieutenant Junior Grade rank, that would corespond with the rank insignia she had on, a diamond with a chevron in it that did not extend past the lower edge of the diamond. Later, in "33", Helo gives his rank as Lieutenant Junior Grade when he is captured. His insignia has the chevron extended so it goes beyond the edge of the diamond. The insignia is identical to the one that Starbuck, a definate Lieutenant wears (except for most of Hand of God, a gaffe, I assume). Gaeta has been seen wearing both. The reason I ask this is that in the new promotional shots for Season 3, Dualla wears this rank insignia on her blue uniform. I basically want to know, which insignia corresponds to which rank? Thank you in advance for the answer and keep up the good work on the show. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:37, 31 August 2006 (CDT)

:From a picture Glenne Campbell showed me -

:Jr Lt - one short chevron
:Sr Lt - one long cheveron
:Captain - two long chevrons
:Major - three long chevrons
:Lt Colonel - gold star, white background
:Colonel - gold star with some gizmo I can't recognize on gold BG, gold lower triangle
:Commander - gold star with the same gizmo on gold BG, gold upper & lower triangles and some white thing behind the whole shebang.

:Senior pilot-officer wings are outspread. Junior pilot officer wings are swept back. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 20:34, 13 September 2006 (CDT)
::Thanks a whole lot, one question though, what is the insignia for Ensign? We've seen some in Scar but they had LTJG rank on IIRC. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:37, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

Heh. I just wanted to make a comment about this.
By intuition one would probably say "longer chevron = higher rank". But I think there is enough evidence to reverse that case here.
I think Helo started as jay-gee and Sharon as a full Lieutenant. Helo calls her "sir" once or twice. That makes her Raptor markings an error. Later Helo got promoted and is wearing the "short chevron" insignia.
The same one worn by most other Lieutenants like Starbuck and Gaeta.
Now and then especially Starbuck can be seen with the "long chevron" insignia. Those are costuming errors. Often they :happen when characters switch between the green and blue uniforms.

Dualla also wears a completely new insignia in "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part 2" but is called Lieutenant. Is there any meaning behind that? Maybe a brevet rank?

I don't want to be presumptous, but maybe the actors could check their rank pins when they receive a new uniform. That shouldn't take too long. The errors are no big deal, but interesting
--[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 22:15 CET, September 1st 2006
:The reason I bring this up is that I'm a military history buff, an ROTC cadet, and a DA Civilian so this is very interesting to me. From watching the show, this is what I've been able to gather.
*Sharon's Raptor is still marked like that all the way through Season 1.
*Dee had an unusual insignia in LDYB PII but is refered to as a Lieutenant and in the promotional shots for Season 3, wears a short-chevron insignia as seen in [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000f5p5f this pic].(Warning-big pic)
*Starbuck consistantly wears the long-chevron rank, except for the majority of Hand of God (she wore the long rank in the celebration scene in the hanger.
*Helo is now a full Lieutenant according to some things Penikett has said. In the promo shots for Season 3, he still wears the long insignia, as seen [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000er4a3 here]. (Big pic again)
*Gaeta goes back and forth between the two.
--[[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:19, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

Going through screencaps I think you're right and Starbuck usually has "long chevron". Especially in the first season. I checked "Act of Contrition", "Flesh and Bone" and "Kobol's Last Gleaming" for example.
I didn't notice any inconsistences with Sharon yet

About Helo:
I thought he had "short chevron" in Season 2...However I just checked my DVDs and he's still wearing "long chevron" in 'Flight of the Phoenix', 'Epiphanies' and probably 'Scar'! I couldn't see it very clearly in the latter one.
So that promotion thing might not be true. Or at least it wasn't reflected in the costuming yet

What that argument gone, I guess one could just as easily say that Helo stating his rank was a gaffe and thus conclude that "long chevron = Lt. SG" and "short chevron = Lt. JG" which also makes Sharon's Raptor right.
Very confusing...
--[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:17, 2 September 2006 (CDT)
:My point exactly, and the reason for me asking. He also has long chevrons rank in Season 1, especially visible in the restaurant scenes in, I think, Hand of God. His promotion and postition on Galactica circa LDYB PII was from an interview. It said that he was promoted to full Lieutenant sometime after returning to the ship. Also, even if he outranked her (which can be implied in the Miniseries {First you're flying with rooks and now you're betting against Starbuck} or something like that), he sould still call her sir since she would be in command of the Raptor. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:25, 2 September 2006 (CDT)

::Yeah, I already thought that maybe she outranked him because of position and not rank.
::I probably made some wrong conclusions, because I had a false memory of Starbuck's rank pins. Sorry.
::In Season 2, hers are harder to track because she's often out of uniform until she returns from Caprica. But in "Pegasus" and "RS, I" it's "long chevron". And then she's promoted to Captain by Admiral Cain.
::And if Helo is already a Lt. SG, then Tahmoh's story about a promotion would be false--[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:43, 2 September 2006 (CDT)
:::Thus the dilemma. My thoughts are as follows: Boomer is a junior LTJG, still a rookie. Helo is a LTJG also, but with much more experience and more tours of duty. Except for the insignia problems, as well as Boomer's bag in "Water" that was marked "Lieutenant Sharon Valerii," this fits with what we have seen. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:58, 2 September 2006 (CDT)
::::Sharon's rankpin is always LT.JG (short chevron). I didn't notice an error there yet. Maybe they just leave the SG/JG stuff from clothing. And Helo's is very consistently LT.SG (long chevron). So how about Helo is indeed a LT.SG - and considering his comment to Six a writing error - but Sharon is still in charge of missions because she's the pilot and he's just the ECO?
::::I'd prefer to go with one error in dialogue over considering his rankpin in ALL episodes an error.

:I would, too. But a mission commander is not necessarily the senior officer present. And, "The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for and is the final authority as to the operation of that aircraft." Unless mission requirements supercede that requirement. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 20:34, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::::My main question remaining now is Dualla's rankpin in LDYB. Though in one released S3 pic she's wearing a regular Lt. pin I think. Maybe Mr. Thompson can shed some light on that --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:21, 2 September 2006 (CDT)
:::::The problem is that we don't know if the which pin belongs to which rank, thus my question. In the promo shot of Dualla I linked to above, she wears the short chevron insignia. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 12:25, 2 September 2006 (CDT)

:We're a bit behind in the documentation of this -- the sketches I've seen don't yet carry the ensign rank designator - but Dualla has moved beyond that to a Junior Lt by the time Season Two closes, which is consistent with the short chevron insignia. (Long Chevron is Sr. Lt) Also consider that promotions (and demotions) do happen on Galactica that we don't get to see. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 20:34, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

==Blackbird: Efficient Construction Crew?==

Hey, I would like to refer you to this article[[http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Blackbird#Appearance_before_Construction.3F]]. Just looking for clarification, I suppose- was this just a VFX gaff, or is there something you lot haven't told us yet? :P --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:55, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

:::The Blackbird shouldn't be mixing it up out there. Looks as if the VFX guys are trying to keep us on our toes. Even if it were in service at that time, the Blackbird has no guns and doesn't turn well enough to be a survivable dogfighter. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 17:57, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

== [[Battlestar Galactica: The Resistance#Episode 3|The Resistance, Episode #3]] ==

On the description it says "''Tigh and Tyrol hide weapons while '''Duck and his wife''' clash over religion.''". Is this correct or was their a mistake? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 11:24, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

::A hideous blunder. They're not married. ;) - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 16:56, 12 September 2006 (CDT)
:::And they didn't really clash. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 17:50, 12 September 2006 (CDT)
::::Yeah, it's obvious there not married, they didn't really argue ;)--[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 17:55, 12 September 2006 (CDT)
:::I shudder what would happen without us. :-) Ok. Thanks brad. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:59, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

::::Great job on the webisodes by the way! Exceeding expectations. (Also, great catch, shane). --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 17:06, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

:::::Thank you. We're very proud of them, and hope you'll find the others won't let you down. As of the 2nd webisode posting, the SciFi trackers told us that they had over a million streams. Wish the folks outside US IP addresses could share in the fun. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 17:26, 12 September 2006 (CDT)
::::::We can. Just by, erm, other means. I like them so far. Nice appetizers for season 3 and I can already see that they provide some background for future developments --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:33, 12 September 2006 (CDT)
:::::: (Right when we need a "drop jaw icon") WOW! Just imaging that without the non-US block. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:35, 12 September 2006 (CDT)
::Maybe I shouldn't say it, but in this case, I'm glad there are... erm...other means - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 17:39, 12 September 2006 (CDT)
:::Indeed, and as a non American I have been very impressed so far with the webisodes. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 03:13, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::::thanks. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 20:35, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

== The international webisode question ==

Hi Bradley - I haven't been able to find any rationale for why the webisodes aren't available outside the US, as mentioned above. Can you shed any light on the thinking behind this decision? Thanks! - [[User:Mr. Random|Mr. Random]] 10:00, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::I asked SciFi.com. Their answer: "We'd like to make them available to viewers outside the US but for various legal reasons we're unable to." International broadcast agreements are complicated and these decisions/reasons are way above my pay grade. You may remember that Sky One got to air the first season in the UK before it showed up in the US. I'd bet that something similar is going on here. - [[User:Ngarenn|Ngarenn]] 20:06, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::I don't even understand how they can make them unavailable to some people (technically, not legally). I thought URLs take everyone to the same place, no matter where they are located. battlestarwiki.org is still battlestarwiki.org in Korea, right? Or is it a porn site there? ;) --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:40, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::Ohh, by the way, just go to youtube and they are there. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:41, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques

2006-09-14T01:40:15Z

Mateo: /* The international webisode question */

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-09-14T01:34:23Z

Mateo: /* Possible resolution to POV dispute */

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

'''I am not attacking you personally'''. I am pointing out legitimate concerns.

#"''I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them''"--->This isn't acknowledging anything, and that's not even what you did: you continued to complain about "we need to cite such and such", even after we inserted citations, etc. etc.
#"''We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM ''"--->I still have no idea what this "second" thing is you are talking about. Please elaborate. I am honestly confused.
#By us having to direct you to this Discussion page, and me even having to go "I will bring this up in a discussion page for the article, it's place is not a personal rant on another page", that I had to do this and we had to explain it to you, showed if you do know how to use wikis you were being confusing about it, and either way not trying to go about the ''process'' of using a Wiki through discussion with other users.
#"''Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise.''" Define "irony"
#Mateo in the "over a year" you've been on wikis, you've basically done only 2 things on BSWiki: argued the semantics of a "Sequel" vs a "prequel", and the current demand that this page be destroyed. I'm not berating you for not using BSWIki alot; we get many newcomers who are not avid about it. What is straining the ''decorum'' is that you are now describing the many flaws in articles you didn't even talk about in Discussion. By your own words, you are a "Stranger" here. I'd be happier if you worked to really helping out here and being a part of stuff.
#Yes, I proved my case. At this point you're just lashing out at everyone who is disagreeing with you when you could be trying to work with us. Homer Simpson: "''I'm'' not pouting....''you're'' pouting!"
#I put the matter to a definative vote so this doesn't drag on forever. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:45, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Responses to above:

#Well, if I missed something by a few minutes then sorry. I acknowlege that I am happy with the removal of "contact with other cylons". I've moved on from that. I'm now talking specifically about that Cylons can not have children.
#We were talking about both the 2nd qualification and whether rankings can exist in general. Talking about two things at once creates confusion (now we are discussing about 20 things, so it's even more confusing). We don't need to continue talking about this, it's unimportant.
#The other discussion page was on the state of the wiki. You, for some reason, thought that I shouldn't talk about specific articles on that page. Whatever, so I moved over here with you. That doesn't mean I don't know how wikis work just because you disagree with where I talk about certain things. Why are we even talking about this? What does this have to do with the article? '''This isn't about me or you''', it's about the article. This is called "ad hominem", attacking the person.
#This type of thing is complete unnecessary. It doesn't help resolve disagreements.
#I didn't demand that this page be destroyed. My problem was that the ranking system seemed to favor certain POVs (and I turned out to be right, which is why I think you're so angry right now). I suggested changing it around to make it NPOV. You've invented this "destroy the article" stuff in your mind.
#No, you haven't proven that anything a cylon says to a human is true. I am not lashing out at '''anyone'''. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Look at your last two posts which were nothing more than insults against me. I have insulted '''no one''', I have only pointed out when POVs are being ignored.
#That vote isn't related to this matter, as I never suggested deleting the article in the first place. My suggestions have all been to remove POV content. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:Is the "ranking" really that valuable? I can see the utility in pointing out characters that cannot possibly being Cylons due to canon references, but as for the remaining ones... they '''might''' be Cylons. One person's "moderate" might be another person's "high" or "low". All we should do is present the facts as they've appeared in the series and let the reader decide for themselves. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::Agreed! I've been saying this for a while, a ranking system cannot possibly be neutral. There are fundamentally assumptions made (such as demonstrated above, the assumption that cylons are telling the truth when talking to humans). It should be up to individuals, no the BSwiki, to decide what they believe. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
It still needs to be moved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:12, 24 August 2006 (CDT)

It ''still'' needs to be moved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:05, 6 September 2006 (CDT)

:To be honest, I'd rather see Baltar moved to "no possibility." --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:13, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

==Vote==

I put forward the proposal (which I do not support) that we yank all of the "chances of being a Cylon" stuff, as well as anything not stated directly on screen or by RDM, removing all Analysis on our part.

'''Support'''

'''Oppose'''
#{{Oppose}} - There's nothing truly wrong with this well-researched Analysis article. As far as Analysis allows, it is Not POV. Any minor concerns with it can and were easily fixed by simple editing and discussion, and there's nothing wrong with summaryizing who has more evidence against them and who has relatively little.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
'''Comment'''
* I don't think anybody (including Mateo) is in favor of this. I think you realize that, though. Should this "vote" continue to take up space if it really isn't anything that anybody is even suggesting? If anything I think most of Mateo's objections would be resolved by simply yanking the "Chances of being a Cylon" rating and headers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
** Point taken, I'll revise that...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:12, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

* You can't properly hold a single vote on 2 seperate issues (rankings and analysis). Some people might be in favor of one but not the other. Such as me. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:15, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
**I agree. Following SV's advise, this is just for the rankings. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
***The proposal says for removing rankings and analysis. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:18, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

== Possible resolution to POV dispute ==

Instead of scraping the article altogether, it could be possible to set up seperate pages for different theories. For example, currently this page supports an axiomatic assumption that things cylons say to humans are true, absent evience against it. You could set up a page that operates off of that assumption. You can then set up a seperate page for a different assumptions, for example my opinion that anything cylons say to humans can not be trusted. And so on. That way no one's POV is excluded and we can still have speculation based on the various theories. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:That's needlessly elaborate, and '''BattlestarWiki is not a messageboard'''. ---->I have already put it to vote. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:35, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide an alternative that doesn't exclude some POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:38, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::There ''are'' no POV violations. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::This article supports the POV that cylons are telling the truth to humans. POVs which contradict this assumption are excluded, currently. I'm trying to find a way to fix this, this suggestion is the best I can come up with so far. If you have other suggestions, I would like to hear them. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:01, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::Could everybody quit using the POV and NPOV terms? I think they are just confusing the issue. Couldn't we just report all the "facts" that are presented in canon and let the reader draw their conclusions? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:49, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I agree that this is probably the best path. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:02, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::Mateo I am sorry that this may have caused tension; A) I don't think there's a problem with rankings, just saying "this person has a lot of evidence against them and little alibi: High probability"...much less, people like Adama who we've actually ruled out. I hope the rankings represent a blurring rather than rigid structure (i.e. Low to Moderate) B) There isn't much fundamentally wrong with this page itself, it's for Analysis. While we could debate the rankings thing, on having Analysis at all I really think that's just the nature of the thing. C) '''We've got bigger fish to fry than our own petty squabbles, fellow BSG Fan: I've just heard shocking news that due to an NBC/Writer's Guild of America fight, the BSG Webisodes have been postponed indefinately. Quickly, to the webisdoes article!'''...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::While there's definitely merit in well-researched analysis, I think it's important that we should distinguish our "analysis" content from our "encyclopedic" content. Maybe there could be an encyclopedic version of this page that's just the facts (ma'am), then an "analysis version" (in an analysis namespace) that would be as it is now? If another fan wants to research the same problems under different assumptions, they could start a different analysis article, and use the encyclopedic article as ammunition (but operating under their alternative assumptions). And... damnit. That's why they haven't been released. I wondered if something was up (since they should have been out by now otherwise). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:41, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::Perhaps we could use a Template at the top clearly saying this is an Analysis page?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:31, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::This article ''does'' have "speculation" in the title. I think that suffices. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

My concern is the relationship between Qualifiers and Rankings. Rankings are based on Qualifiers. Qualifiers are based on Assumptions. So if a person has different assumptions, their rankings will be different. Assumptions are [[wikipedia:axiomatic|axiomatic]]. The difference between this Analysis and Anaylsis on episode pages is that the analysis on episode pages is not axiomatic: it doesn't make definitive statements that then influence the rest of the article. This one does. I still would like to resolve this. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:36, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:I think that lays it out more clearly: Rankings are based on Qualifiers. (Going in reverse order): I think the Qualifiers are fine, and the Rankings a logical easy to read summation of their net result. If you don't like the Qualifiers, I can see why you are against the Rankings (as they are based on them).--------->Our Qualifiers are not based on "Assumptions". "Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people" is not an assumption at all, "Cylons probably started infiltrating Colonial society ''en masse'' 2 years ago so someone who's been aronud 20 years can't be a Cylon" is ''Analysis''; a point based on evidence, not "assumption", and Caprica-Sharon's long scene explaining how Cylons themselves are sterile, was presented as fact and fits into place with all other Cylon activities. No, we will not remove Caprica-Sharon's statement from the Qualifiers, as it was presented as really fact and as Joe said above, to doubt everything verges on paranoia. It's a Hypothesis: any good scientific hypothesis bases itself on evidence which is trusted until disproven. I.e. we still call Evolution technically a "theory" but it's based on solid evidence and speculation based on that, analysis, but not wild "Assumptions" of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. With reference to that specific point, we aren't removing the Cylon sterility thing as a qualifier.--->Qualifiersare not based on "Assumptions"; most of this is tentative (save for those people we've ruled out for several reasons), under the "well I wasn't there and didn't ''see'' homo erectus turn into Cro Magnons, but I can pretty well piece together the evidence so I'm not doubting it" train of thought.---->'''Thank you''' for still wanting to resolve this. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:42, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::"It was presented as fact". What does that even mean? A cylon made claims of fact to humans. Saying that this is "evidence" makes the assumption that she is telling the truth. That's a POV, '''by definition'''. There's no dancing around this. This article is extremely POV and you are stiff-arming any attempt to make it encompass more than just your own personal POV. The fact that you say "No, we will not remove Caprica-Sharon's statement from the Qualifiers" shows that you don't want to resolve this and that, in fact, you feel you have more power here than everyone else (you don't).

::There are really only 2 possible ways to make this article neutral: remove all POV qualifiers '''or''' make this a page of facts and then splinter pages for different POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:18, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::: Having thought about this, I think the best measure would be to cover all possible POV on this. One POV for those who believe Sharon telling the truth and those who believe Sharon's not. Further thoughts, concerns, suggestions? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:31, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

:::: I think it's best to break into different pages. I just edited the page and it said it was 33kb and that 32kb was the suggested limit. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:34, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::Think about this article in the long-term encyclopedic view. If the series continues to a logical end, the contents of the page maybe (and likely) rendered moot. I don't if investing a lot of time picking over it is worth it. Anecdotely, I have cited this article a lot on boards, and the arguments have been analysed by non-wiki users and seem to be acceptable. Plus, it has received several complements. One solution maybe the disputed discussion [[Naturalistic science fiction]]. I like that because it forces the "disputer" to put forth logical arguments (and work) to make his/her point. Personally, I think that this is one of best "analytic" articles on the wiki. Just my 2 cubits. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:25, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::TNS is wildly successful by SciFi's standards; it'll be around more than long enough to keep this article moot [http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/m/m0415900.html in the original sense] for quite a while. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:28, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::I was referring to the second meaning of moot (obsolete), because we would know all the agents, especially if the series is able to continue to it's logical event. However, it is possibly we won't. After all my pontificating, I still see nothing wrong with the article. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 05:42, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I just meant that point is likely a long way off. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 09:15, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

== Jammer in the webisodes ==

I disagree with the analysis of the webisodes presented on this page. Jammer was not advocating the Cylon agenda; he was baiting Duck to find out if he was a potential recruit. Jammer's reaction to Tigh's plan to hide arms in the temple is interesting, but hardly damning. Tyrol's oft-repeated line in the season three trailer ("some things you don't do, colonel, even in war") suggests the question of acceptable or unacceptable tactics will be part of the first few episodes of the next season. The scene in the temple might just be a setup for exploring that distinction. There are ten webisodes to go, and attempting to discern Jammer's motives at this point (with the story unfinished) might be a little premature. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 00:26, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
:I think the analysis of the webisodes is inline with the rest of the analysis. It inherently takes a paranoid approach, as most of the entries are meant to convince people someone isn't a Cylon. I certainly consider his behavior in the webisodes suspicious (more the second), particularly in comparision to the "roll the hard six" thing.
:As to leaving it off until The Resistance is finished, I feel that the text is likely to end up more polished if it's incremented and reviewed after each segment. In any case, it seems best to work with all canon material available at any given point.
--[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:46, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

Humanoid Cylon speculation

2006-09-14T01:31:33Z

Mateo: added citation tags

The [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon's]] transformation into [[Cylon agent|humanoid form]] introduces serious problems for the remnant of humanity known as [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] to identify Cylon operative from human.

This article details plausible speculation on central and supporting characters in ''[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]]'' who, based on their behavior, motive, and background, could be a Cylon agent.

=Needed Qualifiers for Speculation=

For a character to be logically considered a possible agent, there are a few established parameters to meet:

* '''The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings.''' For purposes of this article, a pregnancy can be generally established as a disqualifier. With [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|one exception]], Cylon agents have extreme difficulty with human sexual reproduction to the point of effectively infertility{{citation needed}} ([[The Farm]]). If a character has adult, biological children, it automatically excludes them as being a Cylon agent as the procreation of the child and the age of the child both violate the 2nd qualifier. Although humanoid Cylons have, eventually, proven to be capable of reproduction with humans, the birth of the hybrid child [[Hera]] was considered such a seminal event by the Cylons that it seems safe to conclude that no Cylon ever had a child before that point.
* '''The suspect must not have a verifiable family history''' (other than marriage). A parent would known their child from birth (unless otherwise specified), and Cylons are not copies of prexisting humans. This is an expansion of the "confirmed character history" point below.
* '''The suspect cannot be confirmed to have witnessed or participated in the [[Cylon War]].''' This is another expansion of the "confirmed character history" point; the Cylons definitely didn't have humanoid models during the First Cylon War{{citation needed}}, so if someone is confirmed to have participated in the war 40 years ago, that person is not a Cylon, e.g. William Adama and Saul Tigh.
* '''The suspect does not have a reliable history''' involving direct association (i.e. working or personal relationship) with a confirmed human character for '''more than 2 years prior''' to the destruction of the Colonies.

Based on information from the [[Miniseries]], the Cylon agents began their infiltration and integration into Colonial society approximately 2 years before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. If a character has a direct association with a character that cannot be a Cylon agent, that association excludes them since they are older than the stated time that the agents began to integrate themselves into Colonial society. Note that the 2-year period is based on information given by [[Number Six]] to [[Gaius Baltar]]: Their relationship lasted for 2 years prior to the Cylon attack. There is also supporting information that [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer's]] tour of duty in the Colonial Fleet was also approximately 2 years.

According to [[Ron D. Moore]], the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties. '''Cylon agents are NOT copies or clones of any pre-existing humans, living or dead:''' In an October 24th, 2005 [http://www.thefandom.com/Article50.phtml podcast interview] Ron Moore stated that:

:"The idea is not there was one like an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these were...these models of Cylon were developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said, 'Well, you know what, there's really only twelve of you...and these are the twelve.' And then if you look at them, they kind of represent different archetypes of what humanity is."

Moore and the writers could always, of course, change their minds about anything not specifically established within the canon if needed. There is even precedent for retconning facts established within the canon itself, such as the amount of time remaining in the President's term (between [[Bastille Day]] and [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]) or the number of prisoners held aboard the [[Astral Queen]] (between the [[Miniseries]] and [[Bastille Day]].) Nonetheless, based on the qualifiers yet established, each assessment below is marked accordingly with their probability of being a Cylon infiltrator.

=Suspected Cylon infiltrators=
==High probability of being a Cylon==
=== Jammer? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' High

[[Jammer]] has exhibited suspicious actions numerous times. Along with [[Cally]] and [[Socinus]], he serves under Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] on the [[hangar deck]]. Jammer consistently makes remarks that seem to be trying to divide the humans against each other. When it was revealed to the Fleet that Cylons now can look like humans in "[[Litmus]]", he kept arguing that everyone should stop trusting each other and that it was "every man for himself now", while Socinus said that if they didn't trust each other they wouldn't survive. Cally even pointed out that Jammer's kind of thinking is ''exactly'' what the Cylons want: for everyone to become suspicious and paranoid. Jammer keeps doing this through the second season: when Tyrol is accused of being a Cylon in "[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]" he immediately yells at Cally that the Chief must be a Cylon. Whenever Jammer appears he seems to be trying to sow mistrust among the crew. Also, he told the emotionally unstable Cally that she should be angry at "Boomer" (the first Sharon Valerii copy) not himself, for Tyrol's being suspected, and that she should take it up with Boomer. Jammer can then be seen as having manipulated Cally into killing Boomer (Cally need not be a Cylon; Jammer could tell she was suffering from post-traumatic stress after Kobol and that she would go after Boomer if he suggested it to her).

Two of the biggest pieces of evidence against Jammer appear in the episode, "[[Valley of Darkness]]."

#Apollo and his group of marines found Jammer hiding in a small arms locker, completely unharmed, although the room was littered with the corpses of crewmen the Cylons had killed. He claims to have just hid then snuck inside, but perhaps he was already there and the Centurions spared him because they knew he was a Cylon as well. [[Anastasia Dualla]] was also found alive in a room filled with dead crewmen, but she was in the lavatory, which isn't a vital area of the ship, while Jammer was in a small arms locker. Further, Dualla was wounded; she had a light concussion and presumably a Centurion knocked her unconscious, assumed she was dead, and moved on. Jammer was just standing around inside of the weapons locker.
#Before the fight to protect [[Aft Damage Control]], Captain Adama says a phrase of his father's: "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Jammer asks what this means, and Adama explains. To date, no aired episode explains where [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica-Valerii]], a known agent, learns of this phrase, which she uses in a pressing situation in her efforts to defend ''Galactica'' in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]." Unwittingly, it is plausible that Valerii's knowledge of this phrase (and its origin) came from Jammer via the vague but tangible collective knowledge database of the Cylon agents. However, it is also plausible that [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Galactica-Valerii]] heard this phrase sometime prior to her memories being copied into Caprica-Valerii.

Jammer continues to exhibit pessimistic, counterproductive, and morale-draining behavior. When Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] was trying to construct the [[Blackbird]], he vocally tried to convince the other deckhands that it couldn't be done and it wasn't worth trying. He may have done this to undermine the military assets of ''Galactica'': the Cylons may be hoping to wear down ''Galactica's'' Viper numbers through gradual attrition, while because the Cylons have dedicated manufacturing capabilities for Raiders on the [[Cylon homeworld]] and possibly on basestars, Raiders are easily replaceable. With this in mind, the last thing the Cylons would want is for ''Galactica'' to start constructing her own replacement fighters ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).

Jammer's suspicious behavior extends through the first two [[webisodes]], as he talks with [[Tucker Clellan|Duck]] about the proposed [[New Caprica Police]]. To Duck's disgust at the notion, Jammer replys "Some people say it's a good thing... Get the Centurions off the streets, let us patrol them ourselves," tentatively advocating the Cylons' agenda. Of course, this statement is ambiguous, as Jammer is ostensibly "feeling out" Duck for recruitment into Tyrol and Tigh's resistance cell, so his pro-Cylon idea could just be a tactic to draw Duck's opinion out further.

Jammer also advises Tyrol not to be angry about Duck's refusal to join and to give up on recruiting him. Jammer balks at hiding weapons in the temple on [[New Caprica]] as well, although he is overruled by Tigh.

==Moderate probability of being a Cylon==
===Anastasia "Dee" Dualla?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

[[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] seems to have a fairly well developed backstory regarding her past; she is a Sagittaron ([[Bastille Day]]), her father disapproved of her joining the military ([[Final Cut]]), but upon closer inspection none of this can be confirmed by a third party: the only source of information about Dualla's past in the series has been Dualla herself. Dualla's position in charge of ''Galactica's'' communications puts her in an ideal position for subversion. In "[[Valley of Darkness]]", Dualla is found in the enlisted head, having suffered a blow to the head from Cylon Centurions that passed through. The Centurions killed everyone else, and it does seem plausible that one merely swiped her in the head, knocking her out, and thus thought she was dead and moved on. However, it still seems odd that she was the only survivor. In addition, Number Six later demonstrated in "[[Downloaded]]" how she was willing to physically damage herself in order to manipulate ''Galactica''-Sharon's sympathy: perhaps Dualla hit ''herself'' in the head, to fake an injury, thus throwing suspicion off of herself. Dualla started a relationship with President Roslin's aide, Billy Keikeya, possibly to gain a foothold in the president's office, and then began a relationship with Lee Adama, CAG of ''Galactica'' and son of the military commander of the entire fleet. Eventually, Apollo was promoted to ''Pegasus'' commander and Dualla left ''Galactica'' to marry him and become his XO, further insinuating herself into the command structure.

=== Felix Gaeta? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Moderate

Lt. [[Felix Gaeta]] is in a good position for a Cylon—not conspicuous but nonetheless in a position where he can help the Cylons quite a bit. Gaeta arguably seems to hand something to Boomer in "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]" before she shoots Adama (a frame by frame analysis shows that their hands are not in frame dispite the camera intentionally panning down when he shakes her hand, leaving the question unanswered). However, he did not hand her a gun, because pilots always carry sidearms, and she walked into CIC with it. Gaeta can recognize Cylon devices, and is close to [[Gaius Baltar|Dr. Baltar]]. He admitted to ignoring the Cylon device installed on his console in the [[miniseries]], explaining that he thought it was unimportant. Gaeta has plotted coordinates to a water planet, a Cylon [[tyllium]] base, and [[Kobol]] with uncanny accuracy. He "forgot" to send updated [[emergency jump coordinates]] to the fleet in "[[Scattered]]", leaving ''Galactica'' vulnerable to Cylon electronic attack after having to network the ship [[Computers|computer]] systems together. In "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]" Gaeta helps the Cylon cause by uncovering the ballot tampering which leads to the election of Gaius.

Gaeta's recent behavioral changes from the stress of working at evading the Cylons shows by "[[Final Cut]]" as Gaeta is shown in his interview drunk, smoking, and wearing a new tattoo. By the following episode, "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", Gaeta angrily snaps at Colonel Tigh for giving a difficult order, causing surprise throughout [[CIC]] since Gaeta is normally a calm, reserved officer even under the worst of conditions. Contrast this behavior with Boomer, the ''Galactica'' copy of Sharon Valerii, who still appeared quite alert after 5 continuous days of combat status. Note the following dialogue from the first regular series episode, "[[33]]":

::'''[[Lee Adama|Apollo]]''': Hey, how about you, Boomer? [[Cottle|Doc]] tells me you're holding up better than anybody in the squadron.
::'''Boomer''': I'm tired, like everybody else.
::'''Apollo''': You never seem it.
::'''[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]]''': 'Cause she's a Cylon.
::'''Boomer''': You're just gonna make me come over there and kick your ass, aren't you?

While even Cylon agents develop severe behavioral and physiological issues after extended work and abuse ([[Number Six#Gina|Pegasus]]), Cylon agents appear to be more resilient than humans, which may limit the likelihood of Gaeta's possible Cylon connection. On the other hand, if he were a Cylon, Gaeta's human personality may have finally been overtaxed by that time, suggesting that an actual human might have snapped earlier in their exodus in contrast.

In the end, Gaeta's likelihood as a Cylon operative may be in doubt over one key element: The Cylons appear to have integrated human agents into the Colonies no earlier than 2 years before the events of the Miniseries. Gaeta has served on ''Galactica'' with Commander Adama for three years ([[Miniseries]]). Since humanoid Cylons are not clones of actual humans, the likelihood of Gaeta as a Cylon agent would depend on the start of Cylon agent introduction.

=== Ellen Tigh? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: Maybe (Character over 40 years of age)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Seven-year marriage to [[Saul Tigh]]
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to Moderate

In light of her statistic-defying survival of the Cylon holocaust and her manipulations of her husband during Commander [[William Adama]]'s incapacitation ([[Scattered]] through [[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]), [[Ellen Tigh]]'s actions have demonstrated the possibility that she may be a Cylon agent. For someone who seems so intelligent and far-sighted, she should be well aware that pushing her husband to strong-arm the rest of the Fleet to conform with his (and her) views would only end in chaos. If she ''is'' a Cylon looking to destroy the Fleet from within, then the best weapon in her arsenal is the man she's married to.

In an October 2005 webcast, [[Ronald D. Moore]] indicated that the likelihood of Ellen Tigh being a Cylon was low. Essentially, this was due to the feeling that having her be a Cylon agent would not only be convenient, but unrealistic from a story point-of-view as well. Moore's comments don't eliminate Ellen Tigh from consideration, but reduces the likelihood of this speculation. Some viewers surmise that Moore may have meant that revealing Tigh as a Cylon in her [[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down|debut episode]] in addition to the character's many other complexities, would stretch the overall believability or integrity of the character at that point, but that he was not refering to her actual status as a Cylon or not at the time.

Ellen Tigh's celebrated her seventh wedding anniversary with Saul Tigh in a [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season01/112/deleted1.html deleted scene] from the episode "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]". If the canonicity of this scene stands, then Ellen's likelihood of being an agent drops dramatically. Else, the establishment of their wedding "date" should aid in increasing or reducing speculation on this intriguing character.

==Low probability of being a Cylon==
===Gaius Baltar?===
* Known siblings or adult children: None
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifying character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Very low

There is very low chance that [[Gaius Baltar]] is actually a Cylon. He has been a prominent public figure for years. Number Six earnestly wanted to have a hybrid child with him as the biological father and her as the biological mother, but had to change her plans to ''considering'' [[Hera]] to be "their child" even though it is not biologically theirs. Cylons talking amongst themselves in "[[Downloaded]]" continually referred to Baltar as a human.

To review a detailed breakdown of the whys and whatfors of the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon, see [[Baltar as Cylon speculation]]

=== Bell? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Association with known disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

D'anna Biers' [[Bell|cameraman/assistant]] is another possible candidate for a Cylon infiltrator, as he has been shown willingly taking part in the same devious and manipulative activities as D'anna Biers ([[Final Cut]]). Whether he is a Cylon working in tandem with Biers, or just a nosy human journalist following his superior’s equally devious wishes has yet to be determined.

Bell's speculation as a Cylon agent is questionable based on some of his actions in "Final Cut." When he is free of D'anna Biers, he doesn't film sensitive, if seemingly trivial, data. He overlooks the carbon dioxide scrubbers (a potential Cylon infiltrator target). In addition, instead of filming the [[hangar deck]] after the destruction of the two [[Raider]]s, Bell focuses on Apollo's post-flight check. Since Bell has not been seen in the series since this episode, the lack of further appearances all but eliminates the likelihood for this character to be a Cylon agent.

===Cally?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

[[Cally]] shot Boomer in a "Jack Ruby-style" assassination, preventing the Fleet from interrogating her further. While this might benefit the Cylon agenda, Cally had a perfectly understandable reason for doing it, which she has openly stated: she hated Boomer for what she did to Chief Tyrol, hated her for betraying all of their trust and shooting Adama, and simply because she was a Cylon. Indeed, many other characters in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]" ''congratulate'' Cally and say they would have done the same given the chance. Little can be confirmed about Cally's past, not even her first name yet, but this has not pointed to any Cylon origin. Finally, Cally is pregnant with Tyrol's child as of the end of season 2, meaning it is impossible for them both to be Cylons and improbable in the extreme that either of them is.

===Tory Foster?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to Moderate

[[Tory Foster]]'s past is unconfirmed, and she seemed eager to work her way into President Roslin's administration. The odds that another aide with skills like Billy Keikeya would also happen to be alive in the Fleet is also tenuous.

=== Billy Keikeya? ===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low

[[Billy Keikeya]] might also be a Cylon due to the relative lack of confirmation surrounding his character. In a deleted scene in the Miniseries, it is revealed that Roslin met Billy for the first time when she boarded Colonial One to travel to Galactica; thus he presence can only be "confirmed" immediately before the attack, far short of even the 2 years that Number Six and Boomer had infiltrated the Colonies. Virtually nothing can be confirmed about Billy; although he states in the Miniseries that his parents and siblings were living on Picon when it was nuked, we really only have his word for it and no way to confirm that these were actual facts. Everyone just takes Billy's word for it. Billy has also stated (in deleted scenes in "[[Home, Part II]]") that he is an atheist. Again, he could simply be behaving based on implanted false memories that form a fake personality crafted by the Cylons, and it would be an ironic twist if an atheist character was revealed to belong to a race of religious zealots. That being said, the most recently revealed Cylon agent, [[Cavil]], also exhibits atheistic or agnostic tendencies, explicitly stating that "there is no [[God]]" when interrogated by Roslin and Adama.

Billy could be a Cylon that was sent to keep tabs on Laura Roslin during the attack; Roslin was a viable target due to her status as a high-ranking government official. In an interesting deleted scene in "[[Fragged]]" Billy appears in one of Roslin's dreams as a manifestation of her own doubts and fears. In the dream he antagonistically taunts her for her faith in the [[Sacred Scrolls]] and [[Kara Thrace]] then stabs her in the heart with a knife after which she wakes up screaming in terror. Given the prophetic connotations of Roslin's previous dreams and visions this could ''possibly'' be taken as evidence for Keikeya being a Cylon, however like most deleted material its canonicity is tentative at best.

The character of Billy Keikeya dies in the episode, "[[Sacrifice]]." As only Cylon agents can "return from the dead," the argument for Keikeya as a Cylon agent is effectively invalid unless the character appears in a present-time (non-flashback) episode of the series, which would confirm Keikeya's true nature.

===Galen Tyrol?===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' Low to None

Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] was in an illicit relationship with Boomer, and later had recurring nightmares based on his fear that he might also be a Cylon sleeper agent. However, he has served under William Adama on ''Galactica'' for 5 years, and as Adama put it, had he been a Cylon and they wanted the ship to be destroyed, he more than knew how to do it, and should have ''already'' done it by this point. Cally's expected child in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]", ostensibly that of Tyrol's, all but removes suspicion for this character (love does allow human-Cylon pregnancies to occur, however).

=Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons=
The following characters, for individual reasons below, have been disproven from any possibility of being humanoid Cylon sleeper agents.

===Lee "Apollo" Adama===
* Known siblings or adult children: Yes, with qualifier (See "[[Black Market]]")
* Known family members: Yes ([[William Adama]], [[Zak Adama]])
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

In "[[Flesh and Bone]]", a copy of [[Leoben Conoy]], a Cylon agent, grabs [[Laura Roslin]] and tells her, "Adama is a Cylon," prior to his execution. If his statement is true, it leaves doubt on which Adama he is talking about, although Roslin's actions in the next episode, "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]", indicate that she believes Conoy spoke of Commander Adama.

Cylon agents are not copies (clones) of existing people. Evidence from [[Sharon Valerii]]'s and [[Number Six]]'s conversations indicate that humanoid Cylon infiltration began no earlier than 2 years prior to the events of the [[Miniseries]], although their respective backstories may suggest they have been "alive" for many years. As Lee Adama was alive long before this introduction, and his father knew him since he was born and can thus confirm this, the probability that Lee Adama is a Cylon is as low as that of his father.

Information from the episode, "[[Black Market]]" suggests that Adama was to be a father to a child he conceived on Caprica, but he left the unborn child's mother, his lover at the time. Such a pregnancy, if Lee Adama was indeed an agent, would introduce the ability of Cylon ''males'' to sire children (currently, episodes only show that it is possible for a Cylon ''female'' to conceive).

''There are reports of fan fiction with stories involving [[Lee Adama]] as a Cylon. ''Battlestar Wiki'' does not post fan fiction (whole or in excerpts), or speculation generated by these stories. An article's content must (with [[Numerology|some]] [[Toaster|silly]], [[The Battlestar Galactica Drinking Game|non-sequitur]] [[Flashlight|exceptions]]) provide sufficient basis in fact or probability based on aired episode information or other official sources as described in the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad]] project page.''

===William Adama===
* Known siblings or adult children: Yes ([[Lee Adama]] and [[Zak Adama]])
* Known family members: Yes ([[Caroline Adama]] and [[Anne Adama]])
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: Yes (widely-known Veteran)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (Saul Tigh)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Of all the suspected infiltrators, the case against [[William Adama]] appears to be the weakest.

In the Miniseries, Adama seems to know that the Cylon agents have "silica relays" in their brains, and that they would be affected by the storm around [[Ragnar Anchorage]]. This knowledge is not explained, but the [[Number Five]] copy left on the station showed signs of being affected, whereas Adama did not. In "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]", Commander Adama disappears mysteriously and returns with Ellen Tigh. Around the same time, a Cylon Raider shows up. However, this was all explained later in the same episode, when Adama reveals that he was reluctant to openly announce Ellen's sudden appearance because he was afraid she could be a Cylon.

Adama also has exhibited strange behavior, from expressing vague Cylon sympathies (both in his speech in the Miniseries and in his discussion with Tyrol in "[[Home, Part I]]" where he seems to concede that Boomer was more than a machine). While not openly friendly to the Cylons, Adama seems to at least respect them as persons in that he does not treat the Caprica copy of Sharon Valerii inhumanely (despite an attempt at strangling her when they first met), despite what was done to him by the Valerii copy known as "Boomer". While this could indicate a Cylon nature, it's also extremely likely that Adama's strength of character and personality enable him to think that Valerii might actually have changed.

William Adama is the father of two children, [[Lee Adama|Lee]] and [[Zak Adama|Zak]]. Before the conception of Valerii's hybrid child the Cylons have been unable to produce children through sexual reproduction. Further, Adama is, by all accounts, a veteran of the well-documented [[Cylon War]], back at a time where Cylons were purely mechanical and not biosynthetic.

When the recent revelation by Ron Moore that Cylon agents are unique beings and not copies of existing humans is added to this, the likelihood of William Adama as a suspected infiltrator could be all but ruled out. This also throws the validity of Leoben Conoy's final words to Roslin accusing Adama as a Cylon in "[[Flesh and Bone]]" into question (which were almost certainly meant to just spread paranoia).

The strongest convincing evidence against Adama as a Cylon is that we have seen flashbacks of Adama and Saul Tigh set 20 years prior to the destruction of the Colonies, after the first Cylon War. Since Cylon agents aren't copies of humans, it is not possible for Adama (or Tigh) to be Cylon operatives (at least of the type used thus far).

===Samuel Anders===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown (Was Pyramid Ball player but not known for how long)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

As the leader of an anti-Cylon resistance movement on Cylon-occupied Caprica, [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] stands small chance of actually being a Cylon. He was a well known public figure as a sports star, and though this might have only happened recently, it lends credit against the idea that he is a Cylon. In "[[Downloaded]]", while he is unconscious [[Number Three]] and [[Number Six]] refer to him between themselves as a human.

===Helena Cain===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

Admiral [[Helena Cain]] may have been ruthless and a danger to the Fleet, but she was a publicly known figure for years. Cain spent years rapidly rising through the ranks all the way up to Admiral. Adama has personally witnessed this rise, which must have taken longer than the 2 year cutoff for likely Cylon agent infiltration as defined in this article.

===Karl "Helo" Agathon===
* Known siblings or adult or hybrid children: Yes ([[Hera]])
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Unknown
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Karl Agathon|Helo]] fathers a Cylon-human hybrid, [[Hera]], with a known Cylon agent, [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Sharon Valerii]]. As Cylon males cannot sire children with Cylon females (per data from "[[The Farm]]"), Helo cannot realistically be a Cylon himself.

===Laura Roslin===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (President [[Richard Adar]])
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

President [[Laura Roslin]] may have prophetic moments, like [[Number Six]] and [[Leoben Conoy]], but she cannot possibly be a Cylon. Roslin was a public figure for 20 years ([[Litmus]]), working with later-President Adar and eventually serving as Secretary of Education: her past is totally confirmed. Cylon agents appear to be resistant to cancer, and Roslin was dying of cancer until she was cured by a blood transfusion from the Cylon-Human hybrid foetus ([[Epiphanies]]).

===Kara "Starbuck" Thrace===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: Yes (alluded to in "[[The Farm]]" by [[Simon]])
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: No
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: No
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] has been disproven from being a Cylon: [[Simon]] wanted to use Starbuck's egg cells in Cylon/Human hybrid experiments, and it would be totally illogical for him to need to hold her against her will to obtain her genetic material, if the Cylons already have hundreds of copies of a Starbuck-model Cylon to obtain it from. Starbuck's incarceration in a Cylon [[Farms|Farm]] disqualifies her from being a Cylon. Further, reproduction between humanoid Cylons is impossible, and Starbuck would not have been captured for use in human-Cylon hybrid experiments if she was not human.

===Saul Tigh===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: None
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: Yes (widely-known Veteran)
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (William Adama)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Saul Tigh]] is well known as a veteran of the first Cylon War, and has served as a non-obscure officer in the Fleet for decades. In many respects the case against Saul Tigh being a Cylon is similar to that of William Adama's (above).

The strongest convincing evidence against Tigh as a Cylon is that we have seen flashbacks of Tigh and William Adama set 20 years prior to the destruction of the Colonies, after the first Cylon War. Since Cylon agents aren't copies of humans, it is not possible for Tigh or Adama to be Cylon operatives (at least of the type used thus far).

===Tom Zarek===
* Known siblings or adult children: No
* Known family members: No
* Confirmed participation in Cylon War: Unknown
* Three-year or longer association with disqualifing character: Yes (President Adar, publicly known to be held in prison for 20 years)
* '''Chances of being a Cylon:''' None

[[Tom Zarek]] may seem subversive to the status quo of the Fleet and opposed to President Roslin's administration, but he can't be a Cylon. Zarek has been a well-known terrorist/political dissident for decades. He is widely known for blowing up a government building on Sagittaron, leading to his arrest 20 years ago, and he was presumably a prominent Sagittaron leader for years beforehand. President Adar publicly offered him amnesty if he would renounce his campaign of violence to free Sagittaron and Zarek refused. Due to being such a publicly known figure for so many decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-09-14T01:18:56Z

Mateo: /* Possible resolution to POV dispute */

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

'''I am not attacking you personally'''. I am pointing out legitimate concerns.

#"''I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them''"--->This isn't acknowledging anything, and that's not even what you did: you continued to complain about "we need to cite such and such", even after we inserted citations, etc. etc.
#"''We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM ''"--->I still have no idea what this "second" thing is you are talking about. Please elaborate. I am honestly confused.
#By us having to direct you to this Discussion page, and me even having to go "I will bring this up in a discussion page for the article, it's place is not a personal rant on another page", that I had to do this and we had to explain it to you, showed if you do know how to use wikis you were being confusing about it, and either way not trying to go about the ''process'' of using a Wiki through discussion with other users.
#"''Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise.''" Define "irony"
#Mateo in the "over a year" you've been on wikis, you've basically done only 2 things on BSWiki: argued the semantics of a "Sequel" vs a "prequel", and the current demand that this page be destroyed. I'm not berating you for not using BSWIki alot; we get many newcomers who are not avid about it. What is straining the ''decorum'' is that you are now describing the many flaws in articles you didn't even talk about in Discussion. By your own words, you are a "Stranger" here. I'd be happier if you worked to really helping out here and being a part of stuff.
#Yes, I proved my case. At this point you're just lashing out at everyone who is disagreeing with you when you could be trying to work with us. Homer Simpson: "''I'm'' not pouting....''you're'' pouting!"
#I put the matter to a definative vote so this doesn't drag on forever. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:45, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Responses to above:

#Well, if I missed something by a few minutes then sorry. I acknowlege that I am happy with the removal of "contact with other cylons". I've moved on from that. I'm now talking specifically about that Cylons can not have children.
#We were talking about both the 2nd qualification and whether rankings can exist in general. Talking about two things at once creates confusion (now we are discussing about 20 things, so it's even more confusing). We don't need to continue talking about this, it's unimportant.
#The other discussion page was on the state of the wiki. You, for some reason, thought that I shouldn't talk about specific articles on that page. Whatever, so I moved over here with you. That doesn't mean I don't know how wikis work just because you disagree with where I talk about certain things. Why are we even talking about this? What does this have to do with the article? '''This isn't about me or you''', it's about the article. This is called "ad hominem", attacking the person.
#This type of thing is complete unnecessary. It doesn't help resolve disagreements.
#I didn't demand that this page be destroyed. My problem was that the ranking system seemed to favor certain POVs (and I turned out to be right, which is why I think you're so angry right now). I suggested changing it around to make it NPOV. You've invented this "destroy the article" stuff in your mind.
#No, you haven't proven that anything a cylon says to a human is true. I am not lashing out at '''anyone'''. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Look at your last two posts which were nothing more than insults against me. I have insulted '''no one''', I have only pointed out when POVs are being ignored.
#That vote isn't related to this matter, as I never suggested deleting the article in the first place. My suggestions have all been to remove POV content. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:Is the "ranking" really that valuable? I can see the utility in pointing out characters that cannot possibly being Cylons due to canon references, but as for the remaining ones... they '''might''' be Cylons. One person's "moderate" might be another person's "high" or "low". All we should do is present the facts as they've appeared in the series and let the reader decide for themselves. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::Agreed! I've been saying this for a while, a ranking system cannot possibly be neutral. There are fundamentally assumptions made (such as demonstrated above, the assumption that cylons are telling the truth when talking to humans). It should be up to individuals, no the BSwiki, to decide what they believe. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
It still needs to be moved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:12, 24 August 2006 (CDT)

It ''still'' needs to be moved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:05, 6 September 2006 (CDT)

:To be honest, I'd rather see Baltar moved to "no possibility." --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:13, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

==Vote==

I put forward the proposal (which I do not support) that we yank all of the "chances of being a Cylon" stuff, as well as anything not stated directly on screen or by RDM, removing all Analysis on our part.

'''Support'''

'''Oppose'''
#{{Oppose}} - There's nothing truly wrong with this well-researched Analysis article. As far as Analysis allows, it is Not POV. Any minor concerns with it can and were easily fixed by simple editing and discussion, and there's nothing wrong with summaryizing who has more evidence against them and who has relatively little.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
'''Comment'''
* I don't think anybody (including Mateo) is in favor of this. I think you realize that, though. Should this "vote" continue to take up space if it really isn't anything that anybody is even suggesting? If anything I think most of Mateo's objections would be resolved by simply yanking the "Chances of being a Cylon" rating and headers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
** Point taken, I'll revise that...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:12, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

* You can't properly hold a single vote on 2 seperate issues (rankings and analysis). Some people might be in favor of one but not the other. Such as me. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:15, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
**I agree. Following SV's advise, this is just for the rankings. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
***The proposal says for removing rankings and analysis. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:18, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

== Possible resolution to POV dispute ==

Instead of scraping the article altogether, it could be possible to set up seperate pages for different theories. For example, currently this page supports an axiomatic assumption that things cylons say to humans are true, absent evience against it. You could set up a page that operates off of that assumption. You can then set up a seperate page for a different assumptions, for example my opinion that anything cylons say to humans can not be trusted. And so on. That way no one's POV is excluded and we can still have speculation based on the various theories. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:That's needlessly elaborate, and '''BattlestarWiki is not a messageboard'''. ---->I have already put it to vote. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:35, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide an alternative that doesn't exclude some POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:38, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::There ''are'' no POV violations. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::This article supports the POV that cylons are telling the truth to humans. POVs which contradict this assumption are excluded, currently. I'm trying to find a way to fix this, this suggestion is the best I can come up with so far. If you have other suggestions, I would like to hear them. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:01, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::Could everybody quit using the POV and NPOV terms? I think they are just confusing the issue. Couldn't we just report all the "facts" that are presented in canon and let the reader draw their conclusions? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:49, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I agree that this is probably the best path. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:02, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::Mateo I am sorry that this may have caused tension; A) I don't think there's a problem with rankings, just saying "this person has a lot of evidence against them and little alibi: High probability"...much less, people like Adama who we've actually ruled out. I hope the rankings represent a blurring rather than rigid structure (i.e. Low to Moderate) B) There isn't much fundamentally wrong with this page itself, it's for Analysis. While we could debate the rankings thing, on having Analysis at all I really think that's just the nature of the thing. C) '''We've got bigger fish to fry than our own petty squabbles, fellow BSG Fan: I've just heard shocking news that due to an NBC/Writer's Guild of America fight, the BSG Webisodes have been postponed indefinately. Quickly, to the webisdoes article!'''...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::While there's definitely merit in well-researched analysis, I think it's important that we should distinguish our "analysis" content from our "encyclopedic" content. Maybe there could be an encyclopedic version of this page that's just the facts (ma'am), then an "analysis version" (in an analysis namespace) that would be as it is now? If another fan wants to research the same problems under different assumptions, they could start a different analysis article, and use the encyclopedic article as ammunition (but operating under their alternative assumptions). And... damnit. That's why they haven't been released. I wondered if something was up (since they should have been out by now otherwise). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:41, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::Perhaps we could use a Template at the top clearly saying this is an Analysis page?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:31, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::This article ''does'' have "speculation" in the title. I think that suffices. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

My concern is the relationship between Qualifiers and Rankings. Rankings are based on Qualifiers. Qualifiers are based on Assumptions. So if a person has different assumptions, their rankings will be different. Assumptions are [[wikipedia:axiomatic|axiomatic]]. The difference between this Analysis and Anaylsis on episode pages is that the analysis on episode pages is not axiomatic: it doesn't make definitive statements that then influence the rest of the article. This one does. I still would like to resolve this. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:36, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:I think that lays it out more clearly: Rankings are based on Qualifiers. (Going in reverse order): I think the Qualifiers are fine, and the Rankings a logical easy to read summation of their net result. If you don't like the Qualifiers, I can see why you are against the Rankings (as they are based on them).--------->Our Qualifiers are not based on "Assumptions". "Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people" is not an assumption at all, "Cylons probably started infiltrating Colonial society ''en masse'' 2 years ago so someone who's been aronud 20 years can't be a Cylon" is ''Analysis''; a point based on evidence, not "assumption", and Caprica-Sharon's long scene explaining how Cylons themselves are sterile, was presented as fact and fits into place with all other Cylon activities. No, we will not remove Caprica-Sharon's statement from the Qualifiers, as it was presented as really fact and as Joe said above, to doubt everything verges on paranoia. It's a Hypothesis: any good scientific hypothesis bases itself on evidence which is trusted until disproven. I.e. we still call Evolution technically a "theory" but it's based on solid evidence and speculation based on that, analysis, but not wild "Assumptions" of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. With reference to that specific point, we aren't removing the Cylon sterility thing as a qualifier.--->Qualifiersare not based on "Assumptions"; most of this is tentative (save for those people we've ruled out for several reasons), under the "well I wasn't there and didn't ''see'' homo erectus turn into Cro Magnons, but I can pretty well piece together the evidence so I'm not doubting it" train of thought.---->'''Thank you''' for still wanting to resolve this. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:42, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::"It was presented as fact". What does that even mean? A cylon made claims of fact to humans. Saying that this is "evidence" makes the assumption that she is telling the truth. That's a POV, '''by definition'''. There's no dancing around this. This article is extremely POV and you are stiff-arming any attempt to make it encompass more than just your own personal POV. The fact that you say "No, we will not remove Caprica-Sharon's statement from the Qualifiers" shows that you don't want to resolve this and that, in fact, you feel you have more power here than everyone else (you don't).

::There are really only 2 possible ways to make this article neutral: remove all POV qualifiers '''or''' make this a page of facts and then splinter pages for different POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:18, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

::Think about this article in the long-term encyclopedic view. If the series continues to a logical end, the contents of the page maybe (and likely) rendered moot. I don't if investing a lot of time picking over it is worth it. Anecdotely, I have cited this article a lot on boards, and the arguments have been analysed by non-wiki users and seem to be acceptable. Plus, it has received several complements. One solution maybe the disputed discussion [[Naturalistic science fiction]]. I like that because it forces the "disputer" to put forth logical arguments (and work) to make his/her point. Personally, I think that this is one of best "analytic" articles on the wiki. Just my 2 cubits. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:25, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::TNS is wildly successful by SciFi's standards; it'll be around more than long enough to keep this article moot [http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/m/m0415900.html in the original sense] for quite a while. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:28, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::I was referring to the second meaning of moot (obsolete), because we would know all the agents, especially if the series is able to continue to it's logical event. However, it is possibly we won't. After all my pontificating, I still see nothing wrong with the article. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 05:42, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I just meant that point is likely a long way off. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 09:15, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

== Jammer in the webisodes ==

I disagree with the analysis of the webisodes presented on this page. Jammer was not advocating the Cylon agenda; he was baiting Duck to find out if he was a potential recruit. Jammer's reaction to Tigh's plan to hide arms in the temple is interesting, but hardly damning. Tyrol's oft-repeated line in the season three trailer ("some things you don't do, colonel, even in war") suggests the question of acceptable or unacceptable tactics will be part of the first few episodes of the next season. The scene in the temple might just be a setup for exploring that distinction. There are ten webisodes to go, and attempting to discern Jammer's motives at this point (with the story unfinished) might be a little premature. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 00:26, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
:I think the analysis of the webisodes is inline with the rest of the analysis. It inherently takes a paranoid approach, as most of the entries are meant to convince people someone isn't a Cylon. I certainly consider his behavior in the webisodes suspicious (more the second), particularly in comparision to the "roll the hard six" thing.
:As to leaving it off until The Resistance is finished, I feel that the text is likely to end up more polished if it's incremented and reviewed after each segment. In any case, it seems best to work with all canon material available at any given point.
--[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:46, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-08-18T19:36:15Z

Mateo: /* Possible resolution to POV dispute */

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

'''I am not attacking you personally'''. I am pointing out legitimate concerns.

#"''I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them''"--->This isn't acknowledging anything, and that's not even what you did: you continued to complain about "we need to cite such and such", even after we inserted citations, etc. etc.
#"''We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM ''"--->I still have no idea what this "second" thing is you are talking about. Please elaborate. I am honestly confused.
#By us having to direct you to this Discussion page, and me even having to go "I will bring this up in a discussion page for the article, it's place is not a personal rant on another page", that I had to do this and we had to explain it to you, showed if you do know how to use wikis you were being confusing about it, and either way not trying to go about the ''process'' of using a Wiki through discussion with other users.
#"''Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise.''" Define "irony"
#Mateo in the "over a year" you've been on wikis, you've basically done only 2 things on BSWiki: argued the semantics of a "Sequel" vs a "prequel", and the current demand that this page be destroyed. I'm not berating you for not using BSWIki alot; we get many newcomers who are not avid about it. What is straining the ''decorum'' is that you are now describing the many flaws in articles you didn't even talk about in Discussion. By your own words, you are a "Stranger" here. I'd be happier if you worked to really helping out here and being a part of stuff.
#Yes, I proved my case. At this point you're just lashing out at everyone who is disagreeing with you when you could be trying to work with us. Homer Simpson: "''I'm'' not pouting....''you're'' pouting!"
#I put the matter to a definative vote so this doesn't drag on forever. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:45, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Responses to above:

#Well, if I missed something by a few minutes then sorry. I acknowlege that I am happy with the removal of "contact with other cylons". I've moved on from that. I'm now talking specifically about that Cylons can not have children.
#We were talking about both the 2nd qualification and whether rankings can exist in general. Talking about two things at once creates confusion (now we are discussing about 20 things, so it's even more confusing). We don't need to continue talking about this, it's unimportant.
#The other discussion page was on the state of the wiki. You, for some reason, thought that I shouldn't talk about specific articles on that page. Whatever, so I moved over here with you. That doesn't mean I don't know how wikis work just because you disagree with where I talk about certain things. Why are we even talking about this? What does this have to do with the article? '''This isn't about me or you''', it's about the article. This is called "ad hominem", attacking the person.
#This type of thing is complete unnecessary. It doesn't help resolve disagreements.
#I didn't demand that this page be destroyed. My problem was that the ranking system seemed to favor certain POVs (and I turned out to be right, which is why I think you're so angry right now). I suggested changing it around to make it NPOV. You've invented this "destroy the article" stuff in your mind.
#No, you haven't proven that anything a cylon says to a human is true. I am not lashing out at '''anyone'''. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Look at your last two posts which were nothing more than insults against me. I have insulted '''no one''', I have only pointed out when POVs are being ignored.
#That vote isn't related to this matter, as I never suggested deleting the article in the first place. My suggestions have all been to remove POV content. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:Is the "ranking" really that valuable? I can see the utility in pointing out characters that cannot possibly being Cylons due to canon references, but as for the remaining ones... they '''might''' be Cylons. One person's "moderate" might be another person's "high" or "low". All we should do is present the facts as they've appeared in the series and let the reader decide for themselves. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::Agreed! I've been saying this for a while, a ranking system cannot possibly be neutral. There are fundamentally assumptions made (such as demonstrated above, the assumption that cylons are telling the truth when talking to humans). It should be up to individuals, no the BSwiki, to decide what they believe. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Vote==

I put forward the proposal (which I do not support) that we yank all of the "chances of being a Cylon" stuff, as well as anything not stated directly on screen or by RDM, removing all Analysis on our part.

'''Support'''

'''Oppose'''
#{{Oppose}} - There's nothing truly wrong with this well-researched Analysis article. As far as Analysis allows, it is Not POV. Any minor concerns with it can and were easily fixed by simple editing and discussion, and there's nothing wrong with summaryizing who has more evidence against them and who has relatively little.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
'''Comment'''
* I don't think anybody (including Mateo) is in favor of this. I think you realize that, though. Should this "vote" continue to take up space if it really isn't anything that anybody is even suggesting? If anything I think most of Mateo's objections would be resolved by simply yanking the "Chances of being a Cylon" rating and headers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
** Point taken, I'll revise that...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:12, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

* You can't properly hold a single vote on 2 seperate issues (rankings and analysis). Some people might be in favor of one but not the other. Such as me. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:15, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
**I agree. Following SV's advise, this is just for the rankings. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
***The proposal says for removing rankings and analysis. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:18, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

== Possible resolution to POV dispute ==

Instead of scraping the article altogether, it could be possible to set up seperate pages for different theories. For example, currently this page supports an axiomatic assumption that things cylons say to humans are true, absent evience against it. You could set up a page that operates off of that assumption. You can then set up a seperate page for a different assumptions, for example my opinion that anything cylons say to humans can not be trusted. And so on. That way no one's POV is excluded and we can still have speculation based on the various theories. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:That's needlessly elaborate, and '''BattlestarWiki is not a messageboard'''. ---->I have already put it to vote. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:35, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide an alternative that doesn't exclude some POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:38, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::There ''are'' no POV violations. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::This article supports the POV that cylons are telling the truth to humans. POVs which contradict this assumption are excluded, currently. I'm trying to find a way to fix this, this suggestion is the best I can come up with so far. If you have other suggestions, I would like to hear them. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:01, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::Could everybody quit using the POV and NPOV terms? I think they are just confusing the issue. Couldn't we just report all the "facts" that are presented in canon and let the reader draw their conclusions? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:49, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I agree that this is probably the best path. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:02, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::Mateo I am sorry that this may have caused tension; A) I don't think there's a problem with rankings, just saying "this person has a lot of evidence against them and little alibi: High probability"...much less, people like Adama who we've actually ruled out. I hope the rankings represent a blurring rather than rigid structure (i.e. Low to Moderate) B) There isn't much fundamentally wrong with this page itself, it's for Analysis. While we could debate the rankings thing, on having Analysis at all I really think that's just the nature of the thing. C) '''We've got bigger fish to fry than our own petty squabbles, fellow BSG Fan: I've just heard shocking news that due to an NBC/Writer's Guild of America fight, the BSG Webisodes have been postponed indefinately. Quickly, to the webisdoes article!'''...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

My concern is the relationship between Qualifiers and Rankings. Rankings are based on Qualifiers. Qualifiers are based on Assumptions. So if a person has different assumptions, their rankings will be different. Assumptions are [[wikipedia:axiomatic|axiomatic]]. The difference between this Analysis and Anaylsis on episode pages is that the analysis on episode pages is not axiomatic: it doesn't make definitive statements that then influence the rest of the article. This one does. I still would like to resolve this. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:36, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-08-18T19:18:55Z

Mateo: /* Vote */

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

'''I am not attacking you personally'''. I am pointing out legitimate concerns.

#"''I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them''"--->This isn't acknowledging anything, and that's not even what you did: you continued to complain about "we need to cite such and such", even after we inserted citations, etc. etc.
#"''We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM ''"--->I still have no idea what this "second" thing is you are talking about. Please elaborate. I am honestly confused.
#By us having to direct you to this Discussion page, and me even having to go "I will bring this up in a discussion page for the article, it's place is not a personal rant on another page", that I had to do this and we had to explain it to you, showed if you do know how to use wikis you were being confusing about it, and either way not trying to go about the ''process'' of using a Wiki through discussion with other users.
#"''Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise.''" Define "irony"
#Mateo in the "over a year" you've been on wikis, you've basically done only 2 things on BSWiki: argued the semantics of a "Sequel" vs a "prequel", and the current demand that this page be destroyed. I'm not berating you for not using BSWIki alot; we get many newcomers who are not avid about it. What is straining the ''decorum'' is that you are now describing the many flaws in articles you didn't even talk about in Discussion. By your own words, you are a "Stranger" here. I'd be happier if you worked to really helping out here and being a part of stuff.
#Yes, I proved my case. At this point you're just lashing out at everyone who is disagreeing with you when you could be trying to work with us. Homer Simpson: "''I'm'' not pouting....''you're'' pouting!"
#I put the matter to a definative vote so this doesn't drag on forever. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:45, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Responses to above:

#Well, if I missed something by a few minutes then sorry. I acknowlege that I am happy with the removal of "contact with other cylons". I've moved on from that. I'm now talking specifically about that Cylons can not have children.
#We were talking about both the 2nd qualification and whether rankings can exist in general. Talking about two things at once creates confusion (now we are discussing about 20 things, so it's even more confusing). We don't need to continue talking about this, it's unimportant.
#The other discussion page was on the state of the wiki. You, for some reason, thought that I shouldn't talk about specific articles on that page. Whatever, so I moved over here with you. That doesn't mean I don't know how wikis work just because you disagree with where I talk about certain things. Why are we even talking about this? What does this have to do with the article? '''This isn't about me or you''', it's about the article. This is called "ad hominem", attacking the person.
#This type of thing is complete unnecessary. It doesn't help resolve disagreements.
#I didn't demand that this page be destroyed. My problem was that the ranking system seemed to favor certain POVs (and I turned out to be right, which is why I think you're so angry right now). I suggested changing it around to make it NPOV. You've invented this "destroy the article" stuff in your mind.
#No, you haven't proven that anything a cylon says to a human is true. I am not lashing out at '''anyone'''. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Look at your last two posts which were nothing more than insults against me. I have insulted '''no one''', I have only pointed out when POVs are being ignored.
#That vote isn't related to this matter, as I never suggested deleting the article in the first place. My suggestions have all been to remove POV content. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:Is the "ranking" really that valuable? I can see the utility in pointing out characters that cannot possibly being Cylons due to canon references, but as for the remaining ones... they '''might''' be Cylons. One person's "moderate" might be another person's "high" or "low". All we should do is present the facts as they've appeared in the series and let the reader decide for themselves. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::Agreed! I've been saying this for a while, a ranking system cannot possibly be neutral. There are fundamentally assumptions made (such as demonstrated above, the assumption that cylons are telling the truth when talking to humans). It should be up to individuals, no the BSwiki, to decide what they believe. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Vote==

I put forward the proposal (which I do not support) that we yank all of the "chances of being a Cylon" stuff, as well as anything not stated directly on screen or by RDM, removing all Analysis on our part.

'''Support'''

'''Oppose'''
#{{Oppose}} - There's nothing truly wrong with this well-researched Analysis article. As far as Analysis allows, it is Not POV. Any minor concerns with it can and were easily fixed by simple editing and discussion, and there's nothing wrong with summaryizing who has more evidence against them and who has relatively little.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
'''Comment'''
* I don't think anybody (including Mateo) is in favor of this. I think you realize that, though. Should this "vote" continue to take up space if it really isn't anything that anybody is even suggesting? If anything I think most of Mateo's objections would be resolved by simply yanking the "Chances of being a Cylon" rating and headers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
** Point taken, I'll revise that...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:12, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

* You can't properly hold a single vote on 2 seperate issues (rankings and analysis). Some people might be in favor of one but not the other. Such as me. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:15, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
**I agree. Following SV's advise, this is just for the rankings. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
***The proposal says for removing rankings and analysis. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:18, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

== Possible resolution to POV dispute ==

Instead of scraping the article altogether, it could be possible to set up seperate pages for different theories. For example, currently this page supports an axiomatic assumption that things cylons say to humans are true, absent evience against it. You could set up a page that operates off of that assumption. You can then set up a seperate page for a different assumptions, for example my opinion that anything cylons say to humans can not be trusted. And so on. That way no one's POV is excluded and we can still have speculation based on the various theories. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:That's needlessly elaborate, and '''BattlestarWiki is not a messageboard'''. ---->I have already put it to vote. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:35, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide an alternative that doesn't exclude some POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:38, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::There ''are'' no POV violations. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::This article supports the POV that cylons are telling the truth to humans. POVs which contradict this assumption are excluded, currently. I'm trying to find a way to fix this, this suggestion is the best I can come up with so far. If you have other suggestions, I would like to hear them. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:01, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::Could everybody quit using the POV and NPOV terms? I think they are just confusing the issue. Couldn't we just report all the "facts" that are presented in canon and let the reader draw their conclusions? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:49, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I agree that this is probably the best path. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:02, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-08-18T19:15:13Z

Mateo: /* Vote */

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

'''I am not attacking you personally'''. I am pointing out legitimate concerns.

#"''I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them''"--->This isn't acknowledging anything, and that's not even what you did: you continued to complain about "we need to cite such and such", even after we inserted citations, etc. etc.
#"''We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM ''"--->I still have no idea what this "second" thing is you are talking about. Please elaborate. I am honestly confused.
#By us having to direct you to this Discussion page, and me even having to go "I will bring this up in a discussion page for the article, it's place is not a personal rant on another page", that I had to do this and we had to explain it to you, showed if you do know how to use wikis you were being confusing about it, and either way not trying to go about the ''process'' of using a Wiki through discussion with other users.
#"''Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise.''" Define "irony"
#Mateo in the "over a year" you've been on wikis, you've basically done only 2 things on BSWiki: argued the semantics of a "Sequel" vs a "prequel", and the current demand that this page be destroyed. I'm not berating you for not using BSWIki alot; we get many newcomers who are not avid about it. What is straining the ''decorum'' is that you are now describing the many flaws in articles you didn't even talk about in Discussion. By your own words, you are a "Stranger" here. I'd be happier if you worked to really helping out here and being a part of stuff.
#Yes, I proved my case. At this point you're just lashing out at everyone who is disagreeing with you when you could be trying to work with us. Homer Simpson: "''I'm'' not pouting....''you're'' pouting!"
#I put the matter to a definative vote so this doesn't drag on forever. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:45, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Responses to above:

#Well, if I missed something by a few minutes then sorry. I acknowlege that I am happy with the removal of "contact with other cylons". I've moved on from that. I'm now talking specifically about that Cylons can not have children.
#We were talking about both the 2nd qualification and whether rankings can exist in general. Talking about two things at once creates confusion (now we are discussing about 20 things, so it's even more confusing). We don't need to continue talking about this, it's unimportant.
#The other discussion page was on the state of the wiki. You, for some reason, thought that I shouldn't talk about specific articles on that page. Whatever, so I moved over here with you. That doesn't mean I don't know how wikis work just because you disagree with where I talk about certain things. Why are we even talking about this? What does this have to do with the article? '''This isn't about me or you''', it's about the article. This is called "ad hominem", attacking the person.
#This type of thing is complete unnecessary. It doesn't help resolve disagreements.
#I didn't demand that this page be destroyed. My problem was that the ranking system seemed to favor certain POVs (and I turned out to be right, which is why I think you're so angry right now). I suggested changing it around to make it NPOV. You've invented this "destroy the article" stuff in your mind.
#No, you haven't proven that anything a cylon says to a human is true. I am not lashing out at '''anyone'''. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Look at your last two posts which were nothing more than insults against me. I have insulted '''no one''', I have only pointed out when POVs are being ignored.
#That vote isn't related to this matter, as I never suggested deleting the article in the first place. My suggestions have all been to remove POV content. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:Is the "ranking" really that valuable? I can see the utility in pointing out characters that cannot possibly being Cylons due to canon references, but as for the remaining ones... they '''might''' be Cylons. One person's "moderate" might be another person's "high" or "low". All we should do is present the facts as they've appeared in the series and let the reader decide for themselves. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::Agreed! I've been saying this for a while, a ranking system cannot possibly be neutral. There are fundamentally assumptions made (such as demonstrated above, the assumption that cylons are telling the truth when talking to humans). It should be up to individuals, no the BSwiki, to decide what they believe. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Vote==

I put forward the proposal (which I do not support) that we yank all of the "chances of being a Cylon" stuff, as well as anything not stated directly on screen or by RDM, removing all Analysis on our part.

'''Support'''

'''Oppose'''
#{{Oppose}} - There's nothing truly wrong with this well-researched Analysis article. As far as Analysis allows, it is Not POV. Any minor concerns with it can and were easily fixed by simple editing and discussion, and there's nothing wrong with summaryizing who has more evidence against them and who has relatively little.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
'''Comment'''
* I don't think anybody (including Mateo) is in favor of this. I think you realize that, though. Should this "vote" continue to take up space if it really isn't anything that anybody is even suggesting? If anything I think most of Mateo's objections would be resolved by simply yanking the "Chances of being a Cylon" rating and headers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
** Point taken, I'll revise that...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:12, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

* You can't properly hold a single vote on 2 seperate issues (rankings and analysis). Some people might be in favor of one but not the other. Such as me. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:15, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

== Possible resolution to POV dispute ==

Instead of scraping the article altogether, it could be possible to set up seperate pages for different theories. For example, currently this page supports an axiomatic assumption that things cylons say to humans are true, absent evience against it. You could set up a page that operates off of that assumption. You can then set up a seperate page for a different assumptions, for example my opinion that anything cylons say to humans can not be trusted. And so on. That way no one's POV is excluded and we can still have speculation based on the various theories. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:That's needlessly elaborate, and '''BattlestarWiki is not a messageboard'''. ---->I have already put it to vote. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:35, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide an alternative that doesn't exclude some POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:38, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::There ''are'' no POV violations. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::This article supports the POV that cylons are telling the truth to humans. POVs which contradict this assumption are excluded, currently. I'm trying to find a way to fix this, this suggestion is the best I can come up with so far. If you have other suggestions, I would like to hear them. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:01, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::Could everybody quit using the POV and NPOV terms? I think they are just confusing the issue. Couldn't we just report all the "facts" that are presented in canon and let the reader draw their conclusions? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:49, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I agree that this is probably the best path. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:02, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-08-18T19:02:12Z

Mateo: /* Possible resolution to POV dispute */

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

'''I am not attacking you personally'''. I am pointing out legitimate concerns.

#"''I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them''"--->This isn't acknowledging anything, and that's not even what you did: you continued to complain about "we need to cite such and such", even after we inserted citations, etc. etc.
#"''We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM ''"--->I still have no idea what this "second" thing is you are talking about. Please elaborate. I am honestly confused.
#By us having to direct you to this Discussion page, and me even having to go "I will bring this up in a discussion page for the article, it's place is not a personal rant on another page", that I had to do this and we had to explain it to you, showed if you do know how to use wikis you were being confusing about it, and either way not trying to go about the ''process'' of using a Wiki through discussion with other users.
#"''Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise.''" Define "irony"
#Mateo in the "over a year" you've been on wikis, you've basically done only 2 things on BSWiki: argued the semantics of a "Sequel" vs a "prequel", and the current demand that this page be destroyed. I'm not berating you for not using BSWIki alot; we get many newcomers who are not avid about it. What is straining the ''decorum'' is that you are now describing the many flaws in articles you didn't even talk about in Discussion. By your own words, you are a "Stranger" here. I'd be happier if you worked to really helping out here and being a part of stuff.
#Yes, I proved my case. At this point you're just lashing out at everyone who is disagreeing with you when you could be trying to work with us. Homer Simpson: "''I'm'' not pouting....''you're'' pouting!"
#I put the matter to a definative vote so this doesn't drag on forever. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:45, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Responses to above:

#Well, if I missed something by a few minutes then sorry. I acknowlege that I am happy with the removal of "contact with other cylons". I've moved on from that. I'm now talking specifically about that Cylons can not have children.
#We were talking about both the 2nd qualification and whether rankings can exist in general. Talking about two things at once creates confusion (now we are discussing about 20 things, so it's even more confusing). We don't need to continue talking about this, it's unimportant.
#The other discussion page was on the state of the wiki. You, for some reason, thought that I shouldn't talk about specific articles on that page. Whatever, so I moved over here with you. That doesn't mean I don't know how wikis work just because you disagree with where I talk about certain things. Why are we even talking about this? What does this have to do with the article? '''This isn't about me or you''', it's about the article. This is called "ad hominem", attacking the person.
#This type of thing is complete unnecessary. It doesn't help resolve disagreements.
#I didn't demand that this page be destroyed. My problem was that the ranking system seemed to favor certain POVs (and I turned out to be right, which is why I think you're so angry right now). I suggested changing it around to make it NPOV. You've invented this "destroy the article" stuff in your mind.
#No, you haven't proven that anything a cylon says to a human is true. I am not lashing out at '''anyone'''. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Look at your last two posts which were nothing more than insults against me. I have insulted '''no one''', I have only pointed out when POVs are being ignored.
#That vote isn't related to this matter, as I never suggested deleting the article in the first place. My suggestions have all been to remove POV content. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:Is the "ranking" really that valuable? I can see the utility in pointing out characters that cannot possibly being Cylons due to canon references, but as for the remaining ones... they '''might''' be Cylons. One person's "moderate" might be another person's "high" or "low". All we should do is present the facts as they've appeared in the series and let the reader decide for themselves. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::Agreed! I've been saying this for a while, a ranking system cannot possibly be neutral. There are fundamentally assumptions made (such as demonstrated above, the assumption that cylons are telling the truth when talking to humans). It should be up to individuals, no the BSwiki, to decide what they believe. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Vote==

I put forward the proposal (which I do not support) that this analysis article be deleted, because it has crossed the line between Analysis and POV. By extension, we should also delete large sections of [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations]], [[Timeline (RDM)]], much of the Analysis sections of our episode guide, and several other articles.

'''Support'''

'''Oppose'''
#{{Oppose}} - There's nothing truly wrong with this well-researched Analysis article. As far as Analysis allows, it is Not POV. Any minor concerns with it can and were easily fixed by simple editing and discussion, instead of demanding that the page be destroyed in its entirety. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
'''Comment'''
* I don't think anybody (including Mateo) is in favor of this. I think you realize that, though. Should this "vote" continue to take up space if it really isn't anything that anybody is even suggesting? If anything I think most of Mateo's objections would be resolved by simply yanking the "Chances of being a Cylon" rating and headers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

== Possible resolution to POV dispute ==

Instead of scraping the article altogether, it could be possible to set up seperate pages for different theories. For example, currently this page supports an axiomatic assumption that things cylons say to humans are true, absent evience against it. You could set up a page that operates off of that assumption. You can then set up a seperate page for a different assumptions, for example my opinion that anything cylons say to humans can not be trusted. And so on. That way no one's POV is excluded and we can still have speculation based on the various theories. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:That's needlessly elaborate, and '''BattlestarWiki is not a messageboard'''. ---->I have already put it to vote. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:35, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide an alternative that doesn't exclude some POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:38, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::There ''are'' no POV violations. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::This article supports the POV that cylons are telling the truth to humans. POVs which contradict this assumption are excluded, currently. I'm trying to find a way to fix this, this suggestion is the best I can come up with so far. If you have other suggestions, I would like to hear them. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:01, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::Could everybody quit using the POV and NPOV terms? I think they are just confusing the issue. Couldn't we just report all the "facts" that are presented in canon and let the reader draw their conclusions? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:49, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::I agree that this is probably the best path. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:02, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-08-18T19:01:11Z

Mateo: /* Possible resolution to POV dispute */

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

'''I am not attacking you personally'''. I am pointing out legitimate concerns.

#"''I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them''"--->This isn't acknowledging anything, and that's not even what you did: you continued to complain about "we need to cite such and such", even after we inserted citations, etc. etc.
#"''We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM ''"--->I still have no idea what this "second" thing is you are talking about. Please elaborate. I am honestly confused.
#By us having to direct you to this Discussion page, and me even having to go "I will bring this up in a discussion page for the article, it's place is not a personal rant on another page", that I had to do this and we had to explain it to you, showed if you do know how to use wikis you were being confusing about it, and either way not trying to go about the ''process'' of using a Wiki through discussion with other users.
#"''Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise.''" Define "irony"
#Mateo in the "over a year" you've been on wikis, you've basically done only 2 things on BSWiki: argued the semantics of a "Sequel" vs a "prequel", and the current demand that this page be destroyed. I'm not berating you for not using BSWIki alot; we get many newcomers who are not avid about it. What is straining the ''decorum'' is that you are now describing the many flaws in articles you didn't even talk about in Discussion. By your own words, you are a "Stranger" here. I'd be happier if you worked to really helping out here and being a part of stuff.
#Yes, I proved my case. At this point you're just lashing out at everyone who is disagreeing with you when you could be trying to work with us. Homer Simpson: "''I'm'' not pouting....''you're'' pouting!"
#I put the matter to a definative vote so this doesn't drag on forever. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:45, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Responses to above:

#Well, if I missed something by a few minutes then sorry. I acknowlege that I am happy with the removal of "contact with other cylons". I've moved on from that. I'm now talking specifically about that Cylons can not have children.
#We were talking about both the 2nd qualification and whether rankings can exist in general. Talking about two things at once creates confusion (now we are discussing about 20 things, so it's even more confusing). We don't need to continue talking about this, it's unimportant.
#The other discussion page was on the state of the wiki. You, for some reason, thought that I shouldn't talk about specific articles on that page. Whatever, so I moved over here with you. That doesn't mean I don't know how wikis work just because you disagree with where I talk about certain things. Why are we even talking about this? What does this have to do with the article? '''This isn't about me or you''', it's about the article. This is called "ad hominem", attacking the person.
#This type of thing is complete unnecessary. It doesn't help resolve disagreements.
#I didn't demand that this page be destroyed. My problem was that the ranking system seemed to favor certain POVs (and I turned out to be right, which is why I think you're so angry right now). I suggested changing it around to make it NPOV. You've invented this "destroy the article" stuff in your mind.
#No, you haven't proven that anything a cylon says to a human is true. I am not lashing out at '''anyone'''. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Look at your last two posts which were nothing more than insults against me. I have insulted '''no one''', I have only pointed out when POVs are being ignored.
#That vote isn't related to this matter, as I never suggested deleting the article in the first place. My suggestions have all been to remove POV content. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:Is the "ranking" really that valuable? I can see the utility in pointing out characters that cannot possibly being Cylons due to canon references, but as for the remaining ones... they '''might''' be Cylons. One person's "moderate" might be another person's "high" or "low". All we should do is present the facts as they've appeared in the series and let the reader decide for themselves. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::Agreed! I've been saying this for a while, a ranking system cannot possibly be neutral. There are fundamentally assumptions made (such as demonstrated above, the assumption that cylons are telling the truth when talking to humans). It should be up to individuals, no the BSwiki, to decide what they believe. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Vote==

I put forward the proposal (which I do not support) that this analysis article be deleted, because it has crossed the line between Analysis and POV. By extension, we should also delete large sections of [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations]], [[Timeline (RDM)]], much of the Analysis sections of our episode guide, and several other articles.

'''Support'''

'''Oppose'''
#{{Oppose}} - There's nothing truly wrong with this well-researched Analysis article. As far as Analysis allows, it is Not POV. Any minor concerns with it can and were easily fixed by simple editing and discussion, instead of demanding that the page be destroyed in its entirety. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
'''Comment'''
* I don't think anybody (including Mateo) is in favor of this. I think you realize that, though. Should this "vote" continue to take up space if it really isn't anything that anybody is even suggesting? If anything I think most of Mateo's objections would be resolved by simply yanking the "Chances of being a Cylon" rating and headers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

== Possible resolution to POV dispute ==

Instead of scraping the article altogether, it could be possible to set up seperate pages for different theories. For example, currently this page supports an axiomatic assumption that things cylons say to humans are true, absent evience against it. You could set up a page that operates off of that assumption. You can then set up a seperate page for a different assumptions, for example my opinion that anything cylons say to humans can not be trusted. And so on. That way no one's POV is excluded and we can still have speculation based on the various theories. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:That's needlessly elaborate, and '''BattlestarWiki is not a messageboard'''. ---->I have already put it to vote. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:35, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide an alternative that doesn't exclude some POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:38, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::There ''are'' no POV violations. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::This article supports the POV that cylons are telling the truth to humans. POVs which contradict this assumption are excluded, currently. I'm trying to find a way to fix this, this suggestion is the best I can come up with so far. If you have other suggestions, I would like to hear them. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:01, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::Could everybody quit using the POV and NPOV terms? I think they are just confusing the issue. Couldn't we just report all the "facts" that are presented in canon and let the reader draw their conclusions? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:49, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-08-18T19:00:41Z

Mateo: /* POV problem. */

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

'''I am not attacking you personally'''. I am pointing out legitimate concerns.

#"''I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them''"--->This isn't acknowledging anything, and that's not even what you did: you continued to complain about "we need to cite such and such", even after we inserted citations, etc. etc.
#"''We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM ''"--->I still have no idea what this "second" thing is you are talking about. Please elaborate. I am honestly confused.
#By us having to direct you to this Discussion page, and me even having to go "I will bring this up in a discussion page for the article, it's place is not a personal rant on another page", that I had to do this and we had to explain it to you, showed if you do know how to use wikis you were being confusing about it, and either way not trying to go about the ''process'' of using a Wiki through discussion with other users.
#"''Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise.''" Define "irony"
#Mateo in the "over a year" you've been on wikis, you've basically done only 2 things on BSWiki: argued the semantics of a "Sequel" vs a "prequel", and the current demand that this page be destroyed. I'm not berating you for not using BSWIki alot; we get many newcomers who are not avid about it. What is straining the ''decorum'' is that you are now describing the many flaws in articles you didn't even talk about in Discussion. By your own words, you are a "Stranger" here. I'd be happier if you worked to really helping out here and being a part of stuff.
#Yes, I proved my case. At this point you're just lashing out at everyone who is disagreeing with you when you could be trying to work with us. Homer Simpson: "''I'm'' not pouting....''you're'' pouting!"
#I put the matter to a definative vote so this doesn't drag on forever. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:45, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Responses to above:

#Well, if I missed something by a few minutes then sorry. I acknowlege that I am happy with the removal of "contact with other cylons". I've moved on from that. I'm now talking specifically about that Cylons can not have children.
#We were talking about both the 2nd qualification and whether rankings can exist in general. Talking about two things at once creates confusion (now we are discussing about 20 things, so it's even more confusing). We don't need to continue talking about this, it's unimportant.
#The other discussion page was on the state of the wiki. You, for some reason, thought that I shouldn't talk about specific articles on that page. Whatever, so I moved over here with you. That doesn't mean I don't know how wikis work just because you disagree with where I talk about certain things. Why are we even talking about this? What does this have to do with the article? '''This isn't about me or you''', it's about the article. This is called "ad hominem", attacking the person.
#This type of thing is complete unnecessary. It doesn't help resolve disagreements.
#I didn't demand that this page be destroyed. My problem was that the ranking system seemed to favor certain POVs (and I turned out to be right, which is why I think you're so angry right now). I suggested changing it around to make it NPOV. You've invented this "destroy the article" stuff in your mind.
#No, you haven't proven that anything a cylon says to a human is true. I am not lashing out at '''anyone'''. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Look at your last two posts which were nothing more than insults against me. I have insulted '''no one''', I have only pointed out when POVs are being ignored.
#That vote isn't related to this matter, as I never suggested deleting the article in the first place. My suggestions have all been to remove POV content. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 14:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:Is the "ranking" really that valuable? I can see the utility in pointing out characters that cannot possibly being Cylons due to canon references, but as for the remaining ones... they '''might''' be Cylons. One person's "moderate" might be another person's "high" or "low". All we should do is present the facts as they've appeared in the series and let the reader decide for themselves. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::Agreed! I've been saying this for a while, a ranking system cannot possibly be neutral. There are fundamentally assumptions made (such as demonstrated above, the assumption that cylons are telling the truth when talking to humans). It should be up to individuals, no the BSwiki, to decide what they believe. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Vote==

I put forward the proposal (which I do not support) that this analysis article be deleted, because it has crossed the line between Analysis and POV. By extension, we should also delete large sections of [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations]], [[Timeline (RDM)]], much of the Analysis sections of our episode guide, and several other articles.

'''Support'''

'''Oppose'''
#{{Oppose}} - There's nothing truly wrong with this well-researched Analysis article. As far as Analysis allows, it is Not POV. Any minor concerns with it can and were easily fixed by simple editing and discussion, instead of demanding that the page be destroyed in its entirety. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

== Possible resolution to POV dispute ==

Instead of scraping the article altogether, it could be possible to set up seperate pages for different theories. For example, currently this page supports an axiomatic assumption that things cylons say to humans are true, absent evience against it. You could set up a page that operates off of that assumption. You can then set up a seperate page for a different assumptions, for example my opinion that anything cylons say to humans can not be trusted. And so on. That way no one's POV is excluded and we can still have speculation based on the various theories. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:That's needlessly elaborate, and '''BattlestarWiki is not a messageboard'''. ---->I have already put it to vote. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:35, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide an alternative that doesn't exclude some POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:38, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::There ''are'' no POV violations. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::Could everybody quit using the POV and NPOV terms? I think they are just confusing the issue. Couldn't we just report all the "facts" that are presented in canon and let the reader draw their conclusions? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:49, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-08-18T18:38:11Z

Mateo: /* Possible resolution to POV dispute */

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise. There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:Is the "ranking" really that valuable? I can see the utility in pointing out characters that cannot possibly being Cylons due to canon references, but as for the remaining ones... they '''might''' be Cylons. One person's "moderate" might be another person's "high" or "low". All we should do is present the facts as they've appeared in the series and let the reader decide for themselves. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::Agreed! I've been saying this for a while, a ranking system cannot possibly be neutral. There are fundamentally assumptions made (such as demonstrated above, the assumption that cylons are telling the truth when talking to humans). It should be up to individuals, no the BSwiki, to decide what they believe. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Vote==

I put forward the proposal (which I do not support) that this analysis article be deleted, because it has crossed the line between Analysis and POV. By extension, we should also delete large sections of [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations]], [[Timeline (RDM)]], much of the Analysis sections of our episode guide, and several other articles.

'''Support'''

'''Oppose'''
#{{Oppose}} - There's nothing truly wrong with this well-research Analysis article. As far as Analysis allows, it is Not POV. Any minor concerns with it can and were easily fixed by simple editing and discussion, instead of demanding that the page be destroyed in its entirety. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

== Possible resolution to POV dispute ==

Instead of scraping the article altogether, it could be possible to set up seperate pages for different theories. For example, currently this page supports an axiomatic assumption that things cylons say to humans are true, absent evience against it. You could set up a page that operates off of that assumption. You can then set up a seperate page for a different assumptions, for example my opinion that anything cylons say to humans can not be trusted. And so on. That way no one's POV is excluded and we can still have speculation based on the various theories. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:That's needlessly elaborate, and '''BattlestarWiki is not a messageboard'''. ---->I have already put it to vote. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:35, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide an alternative that doesn't exclude some POVs. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:38, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-08-18T18:33:48Z

Mateo: Possible resolution to POV dispute

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise. There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:Is the "ranking" really that valuable? I can see the utility in pointing out characters that cannot possibly being Cylons due to canon references, but as for the remaining ones... they '''might''' be Cylons. One person's "moderate" might be another person's "high" or "low". All we should do is present the facts as they've appeared in the series and let the reader decide for themselves. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::Agreed! I've been saying this for a while, a ranking system cannot possibly be neutral. There are fundamentally assumptions made (such as demonstrated above, the assumption that cylons are telling the truth when talking to humans). It should be up to individuals, no the BSwiki, to decide what they believe. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Vote==

I put forward the proposal (which I do not support) that this analysis article be deleted, because it has crossed the line between Analysis and POV. By extension, we should also delete large sections of [[Cylon-related Hallucinations]], [[Timeline (RDM)]], much of the Analysis sections of our episode guide, and several other articles.

'''Support'''
'''Oppose'''
#{{Oppose}} - There's nothing truly wrong with this well-research Analysis article. As far as Analysis allows, it is Not POV. Any minor concerns with it can and were easily fixed by simple editing and discussion, instead of demanding that the page be destroyed in its entirety. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

== Possible resolution to POV dispute ==

Instead of scraping the article altogether, it could be possible to set up seperate pages for different theories. For example, currently this page supports an axiomatic assumption that things cylons say to humans are true, absent evience against it. You could set up a page that operates off of that assumption. You can then set up a seperate page for a different assumptions, for example my opinion that anything cylons say to humans can not be trusted. And so on. That way no one's POV is excluded and we can still have speculation based on the various theories. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:33, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-08-18T18:23:02Z

Mateo: /* Anders */

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise. There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:Is the "ranking" really that valuable? I can see the utility in pointing out characters that cannot possibly being Cylons due to canon references, but as for the remaining ones... they '''might''' be Cylons. One person's "moderate" might be another person's "high" or "low". All we should do is present the facts as they've appeared in the series and let the reader decide for themselves. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
::Agreed! I've been saying this for a while, a ranking system cannot possibly be neutral. There are fundamentally assumptions made (such as demonstrated above, the assumption that cylons are telling the truth when talking to humans). It should be up to individuals, no the BSwiki, to decide what they believe. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-08-18T18:00:46Z

Mateo: /* POV problem. */

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::He could have been the person who meet Six, before he boarded the plane and meet Roslin? Everyday I keep going over this, so I just had to get it out there now. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:30, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Part of the point of the Speculation page is that we're bringing up people who have been speculated as Cylons, and then we can actually ''disprove'' the posibility that they are Cylons; we do this, so that when visitors look at the list they can see why someone has been disproven or is still suspect; for example, we still keep Apollo's entry up even though there's frankly a snowball's chance on the sun that he is a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:59, 26 March 2006 (CST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:In Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II when Baltar has sex with Gina, does that disprove once him being a cylon. I would think that anyone who would have doubts after Downloaded would have to accept the fact that Baltar's spine did not turn red and therefore he can't be a cylon. Ronald D. Moore himself said in the commentary in the mini-series that the Humano-Cylon spines all turn red. Shouldn't we take him off of the speculated Humano-Cylon agent list?--Zareck Rocks 16:45, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:They may be sleeper agents anyway, and their programming didn't tell them to "wake up"[[User:Mrxerox|MrXerox]] 1:38 19 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

if the chief were a Cylon, Three wouldn't have been as worried about Galactica-Sharon in "Downloaded." She would have just shown her another Tyrol copy. It's essentially the same reason Baltar can't be a Cylon: they may try to hide it from the humans, but why hide it from other Cylons? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:27, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:I don't believe Tyrol to be a Cylon, but (A) Two sleeper agents '''would''' plan on mustering out and getting married, not knowing the attack was coming, and (B) What good would showing her another Tyrol do? He wouldn't be Tyrol. If anything it would make things worse for Sharon.
:Can we come up with some better disqualifing facts?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:47, 23 March 2006 (EST)
::Cylons have demonstrated great interest in procreation with humans, and absolutely none with other Cylons. It fits with what we know of the Cylon plan for Sharon to want to seduce a human. If Tyrol were a Cylon, it would force us to violate Occam's razor on this count. Also, like the suggestion that Baltar might be a Cylon, this demands that one of the twelve models existance has been ekpt secret from the Cylons on Caprica, which seems silly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:39, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::You guys are forgetting that the 7 Cylon models we know as of now, are the significant seven, and they have no clue on who the final five Cylon models are. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:::A) we're not sure about that info quite yet B ) I think there are limits to it. I mean, I think what Grace meant was "the Cylon on New Caprica have been programmed to not know who the other 5 are so they don't give it away involuntarily to the humans", but logically the ones on CAPRICA would not have any such restriction (they didn't run into the same 7 Cylons there). That's why I'm not really basing anything on her comments, until we get more info later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

==Analysis==

I think it would be good if we formated this with a case for and case against section, that is, like in the Adama sections, have the first section say "this is why we initially suspected him", but then say at the end "this other event (i.e. Cylons amongst themselves referring to a character as human)", makes it impossible for this character to be a Cylon.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:45, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

: Makes sense to me... --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 22:46, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

==Baltar as Cylon Zero==

I'm sorry, but this part of it all is just too much, using questionable "facts" to prove a more questionable theory. It just doesn't make sense to add it, since there isn't even any Cylon Zero mentioned --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 12:37 19 April 2006

:After reading this, I find a few tenuous snippets of intriguing possibility on the original premise. The bulk of the section that tries to support the premise, however, is pure speculation, which I will cull, as well as retitling the section more germanely. I believe I can add or reinforce the central thought. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:58, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::Rewritten. I believe the concepts are more digestable, do not rehash existing points (the page is getting long, anyway), and points to the new crux of what the heck ARE the virtual Six and Baltar and how in the heck does Baltar seem to work "God's" work in those season 1 episodes. That's something I'm sure will haunt him (and the other characters) later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Not a single piece of it was acceptable, I am sorry, but we cannot coddle this. I have removed it entirely. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:59, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I agree. Sorry, Spence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:11, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Not a problem: was trying to salvage rather than obliterate an addition. I had that first reaction myself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thank you Peter: sometimes I worry that I act hastily, but often we get new users who jump on and say their own pet theories, and as an encyclopedia we cannot tolerate hundreds of people's pet theories, just prevailing ones: i.e. I disagree with "could Baltar be one of the 12 Cylon models?" but enough people on messageboards suggest it that I felt it had merit to stay (as speculation) here, and then to note as the series wore on that it has been (by and large) disproven by the evidence. But that guy saying "hmm, those nukes must have been detonated by suicide bombers" when you SEE basestars in orbit nuking the planet, is sillyness. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:16, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::If it were up to me, I'd completely eliminate Ellen, Lee, Bill and Gaius from that list. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:06, 19 April 2006
:::::::No. It helps people to show who couldn't be a Cylon, so they won't add it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:35, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::Could we just lay out the (very conclusive) evidence against their being cylons, and dispense with any further discussion on the topic? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::::Maybe. But then, would we have EVER thought we'd see Starbuck give Tigh a HUG? Anything is possible with RDM and especially in light of the end of Season 2. If anything, keeping the speculation and its conclusions there there prevents someone from putting it back with rehashed items. We should note the high unlikelihood as per the article's purpose in each section. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

==Restructuring==
I'm revising this article. I'm spent a lot of time sifting through messageboard speculation, and I'm going to list other characters: again, we shouldn't just list "people who might be Cylons", but for other people, such as say, Adama, who ''have'' "reason" to be suspected of being a Cylon, to help out readers trying to figure out who's a Cylon we should list how sucha person might be suspected of being a Cylon, but also, that this possibility has been disproven. I'm putting little bolded tags onto the bottom of each one, summarizing the actual chance such a person has of being a Cylon after reading the entire article: that is, summary of the William Adama article: "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: None'''". Meanwhile, the "point" of the entire Ellen Tigh article could be summed up as "well she could conceivably be a Cylon and is a shifty character but could also not be and RDM isn't pushing it too hard", so "'''Possibility of being a Cylon: Moderate"'''. If you want to change someone's odds of being a Cylon, just do so and if there's any arguement over the particulars of it, we can debate the merits on this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:37, 30 May 2006 (CDT)
:Just to elaborate: so many times on messageboards I see people saying "well maybe Anders is a Cylon", or "maybe Roslin's a Cylon", that I really want to just list here "Roslin: can't be a Cylon because...etc"; just round out the full regular cast, plus anyone who's non-Cylonness has been confirmed. Just a guide to help people.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:03, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: That doesn't sound unreasonable. I also like the idea of a little summary tag for each person so that, if you only wanted to read (dis)proofs, you could skip the ones that have any change besides "none". I'm interested to see how this turns out. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 22:51, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

:: I've been reading this page as you do it. Make sure you cite the Episode. I already marked something under Dullea because I never seen or saw something that provved she acually married Lee Adama. {{tl|citation needed}}. Also I like to point out that your doing the same thing as the message boards, just listing character. At this point, you can list every character at this point and say they are a potiential Cylon. Maybe add something to the {{tl|Character Data}} template with their "cylon" chances if they do exist, but because there is ltitle "citation" it should not appear on this page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:25, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

== Chief and Cally + Company ==

We already establish from LDYB II that these three can not be Cylons. Why were they added? In this discussion (above) it proves this point. Reason to put Cain? She's been around for 20 years and already has a history from being an Admiral? This makes no sence to be placed on this page. Tom? Need I say more. "''Due to being such a publicly known figure for so Tory Foster, Cheif, Helena Cain, Tom Zarek, Kara Thrace, and Cally and decades before the Cylon Attack, Zarek could not be a Cylon.''" Kara Thrace? Please... alot of these should be removed.

For reason I should this is the list that should be removed (and update this list if you think it should be removed also. '''This is not a Keep list.'''):

*Laura Roslin
*Tory Foster
*Cheif
*Helena Cain
*Tom Zarek
*Kara Thrace
*Cally
*Helo (Only has one entry? Why is it here?)

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:36, 30 May 2006 (CDT)

A) I did this in a hurry, and I'm not done B) because I'm leaving for a convention in NYC Ron Moore and the cast are going to C)I want the people DEFINATELY DISPROVEN to be on the list as well, or at least a shorter subheader going "these people can't be CYlons, here's why" so people can see that they have been disproven (meanwhile, people like, Captain Kelly we know so little about that we don't suspect them, nor has their innocence been proven, or like Kat). ****Battlestar Galactica Magazine did a similar "who is the main cast is a Cylon?" list but it was based on their BEHAVIOR, which as we all know can be implanted, so I wanted to do a fuller list, which explains how these people can't be Cylons. **I'll get to work on this later. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:Creating a page to proove to RDM and cast is not a reason to expand this page Merv. Maybe these should be put in a new page called [[Human speculation]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

::I do not understand what you just said: I didn't "create" a page this thing has been here for like a year: as I already said, I listed the other people in order to list the reasons that dispel why some fan reading our site might think they're a Cylon, because the magazine had an article which (wrongly, I felt) kind of included them in the speculation. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 07:25, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
:::Then where is the citation. I have to say, in most case you say you now where eerything is coming from, but forget to cite where this was posted. If this is the case, there should be a footnoote for everyone of the ones that came from the magazine, page number and all. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:28, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
::::He's not quoting the article in this case (correct me if I'm wrong), but using it as precedent for the type of article. Also, the minute we yank a "Cylon candidate" (no matter how unlikely) somebody will come along and add them back because they believe that they might be a Cylon. Having concise, cited, definitive arguments against their being Cylons is good inoculation against a larger, speculative theory about the possibility of them being Cylons. This article has served as an excellent "containment area" to house some of the more "message board style" argument and speculation, and it has come a long way towards being well cited since its original inception. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I concur with SV. We should leave ALL entries placed here, but we can concise the entries that are highly unlikely of being an agent to its root reason, and leave arguments for characters with stronger suspicions for later detail. We need to be mindful of this article's size. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:13, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::: Are there any points, specifically, Shane that you see needing citation (besides the rather tangental note about whether Apollo and Dee are married now)? If so, please note them here... Maybe some of us happen to know where the information came from off the top of our head. Maybe not, but then, at least, we could all be in on this, rather than you vaguely requesting more citations from Merv, who, as he mentioned, will be out of town for a while soon. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:07, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Hey, I'm back for an hour or two: I think this turned out well with the stuff you guys touched up. Yeah, I did this in a hurry and need to put in citations and stuff (the APollo+Dualla citation is on the Dualla and Apollo bio pages, but I'll add it in plus other stuff as needed). I'll be tinkering with this....--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

== The Doctor ==

Im surprised to see that no one has suggested him. He knows almost everything there is to know about the insides of the fleet, and he knows about the cylon baby. ([[User:Cloud02|Cloud02]] 13:54, 2 June 2006 (CDT))
:You could if you want but we have to list the why's and whatfor's. I think he's never done anything overtly suspicious, and thus falls into the same category as like, Captain Kelly and 3 dozen other named characters on the show like Racetrack; we know so little about them that there is no specific reason to suspect them. I only listed the main cast and some of the bigger recurring characters just because they're the most frequent names.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:22, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, someone did suggest it (I say "suggest", he vehemently insisted) Cottle for a Cylon on the Doc's talk page. The general opinion of those in the discussion was that every viable argument for Cottle (doesn't complain about treating a Cylon, is sympathetic to said Cylon, and opposed separating Hera from her mother) more likely stems from him being a doctor than being an agent. --[[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 16:21, 4 June 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

This article is the wiki's largest, at over 45Kb, which might break on some browsers. At the same time, it's one of our most active "unexplained mysteries" page and I don't want any content removed (especially given our heated and fun pro-con arguments to date). Still, this page needs to be broken down to subarticles. Perhaps the Gaius Baltar section should be made into a subarticle to start, which should greatly help in page size (it should not be deleted; sorry Merv--other newbies need to see the progression of the logic, even with the new information, to avoid redundant information). If anyone else has suggestions, pipe in. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:47, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:I never finished updating this page, it's been a work in progress for a week: I'll get to this tonight. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

::How about starting off by separating out and expanding the discussion about the qualifiers as the main article with the of the discusion of each candidate as a subarticle? How about a speculation template for the each candidate subarticle? Willing to work if given instructions and go ahead. I'm sleepy hope this made some sense. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:57, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

I finally finished cleaning up this article. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:53, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Zak Adama? ==

Has anyone thought of Zak Adama as a possible Cylon model? I know he was William Adama's son, and William probably was there when he was born, but it is something to think about. When Leoben told Roslin that "Adama was a Cylon", it was obvious that he was lying. But he does mix truth with lies. Lee and William are about 99.99% NOT cylons. But maybe they somehow did something with Zak... I think in the new BSG comic there is something about Zak in there, but I'm not sure how canon that is, and also the fact that the comic hasn't ended yet, so we don't know the whole story. --[[User:Scoke Faofa|Scoke Faofa]] 13:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:A) We decided that the events of the comic book are ''laughably'' non-canon.
:B) Commander Adama has known him since he was born, and Cylons are not copies of pre-existing people. No, there is 100% no chance that Zak was a Cylon. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:07, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:Indulging in minor speculation, that one in the comic book is, at best, a Cylon. He was definitely not a Cylon in the series proper, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:25, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Felix Gaeta ==
One of the comments in Gaeta's section says that he seemed, like Boomer, to be more resilient to the stresses placed on him than other humans. But he still had a few rebellious moments in CIC and as shown during [[Final Cut]]. However, I think it just as likely that he noticed that he was "out of tune" with the rest of his shipmates and chose some highly visible ways to show stress that he may or may not have been feeling.

Gaeta has also been very careful to maintain a close relationship with those in power. He's a critical player in the CIC and an assistant to Dr. Baltar. That puts him in a perfect position to monitor things and give them a push to go the way the Cylons want them. When New Caprica is founded and the military's power is drastically decreased, he leaves to become Baltar's aide. Baltar becomes a hedonistic, ineffective president, which leave Gaeta as the "go-to" guy. It seems that everything he does gives him some level of control over the events around him.
--[[User:WiJO|WiJO]]

:Okay but that's really not anything that isn't already said in the article. Further he actually seems to be trying to keep New Caprica running and a little PO'd at how incompetant Baltar is getting. The stamina thing is just a low-level clue and not a major one, as Cylons could just fake being tired or whatnot; it's more an annectedote than anything. Although Gaeta is a "Moderate" chance of being a Cylon I honestly think he's a red herring, as A) He's got many obvious things that suggest he might be a Cylon, being a little TOO obvious B) All of the things he's done have actually had a legitmate alibi: i.e. yeah he linked together Galactica's computers and the virus got in, but Adama probably would have died had he not done that. I'm going to fix up this page later today. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 10:22, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

==Removing "Past Affiliation"==

Should we remove the "Past Affiliation" requirement? I actually have never thought it meant anything as a qualifier, as a Cylon could act alone. If we remove it, it would actually have no impact on who makes the list and who doesn't: everyone who's either suspected of being a Cylon or proven innocent, was proven so for reasons completely divorced from whether they were actually in contact with someone (i.e. no one is thought of being more or less a Cylon simply because they happened to have contact with a Cylon). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
:The association criterion should be deleted.

:The family history requirements should be unified. It should be amended to more clearly state that pre-Boomer pregnancies disqualify and post-Boomer pregnancies do not. (Her pregnancy was clearly the first and special, but it is possibly replicable.) It should also be more direct in stating only non-identical siblings disqualify. (Technically, 12-(known models) is the upper limit on non-identical siblings in a Cylon agent mock family, but that's well beyond plot credibility.)

:I also think the "old enough for [[Cylon War]]" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.

:None of these points come up with any character that springs to mind, but they are not absolute logical requirements, so they should be dropped or changed for proper compliance with NPOV. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:15, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. "''I also think the "old enough for Cylon War" requirement doesn't actually add anything. If they are actually verifiably that old, it's covered by the "reliable history" requirement. If they are not, it's effectively another case of Cavil's exception.''"-->Yes, it's their *history* but not their age: it's *verifiable participation in the Cylon War*, like Tigh and Adama. There are people that old, like Cottle or Cavil, but the fact that Cottle is old enough to have been in the war isn't proof that he was, as Cavil is that old too and he ''is'' a Cylon. So we should clarify that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:39, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::I am in agreement with CA. Also, much of the concerns could be alieviated if we better cited our sources in the article thoroughly, ensuring a reduction in POV bias that presently exists in the article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Agree on all points. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

== POV problem. ==

All of the qualifications are POV. Please provide citations from RDM or someone else that supports these qualifications or they must be removed and the article reformatted to remove ranking systems that are POV. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:25, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, all of the qualifications are not POV. They are based on on-screen established parameters. Yes, we cited an RDM podcast in which he said that Cylons are not copies of pre-existing humans. This is an Analysis page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:43, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::Please provide citation (from RDM or someone else on the show) that "regular association with other Cylon agents". We will start from there, but a cursory glance suggests that all of the qualifications are POV.

::Also, the title "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons" is absurd for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, most of the people listed there says that they have "very little chance" which is a huge difference from "no chance" (even if "very little chance" were true, which I disagree). Secondly, unless RDM says "X person is not a cylon" then excluding anyone is POV pushing. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 19:47, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with Mateo as I pointed out [[#Chief_and_Cally_.2B_Company|here]]. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:51, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::He's right about the "regular association" part. As far as we know, Boomer never associated with any other agents. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::In many cases there is absolutely no reasonable cause to suspect a character of being a Cylon. Constantly noting the existence of a negligable shadow of a doubt (which will exist in all commentary on fictional work) would muddle the text badly. I don't seen this as POV pushing so much as abiding by a set of reasonable criteria to discuss a work intelligently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::Well said. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:50, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Mateo...."regular association wiht other Cylon agents"....didn't you see the topic I made ''immediately above this one'', only 20 hours before you made this new subheading, in which I agreed and said "we should remove "regular association"? CalculatinAvatar, Joe and Peter have agreed as well; we're already removing that.
As for "Characters who cannot possibly be Cylons", far from being "absurd", I think we've actually giving solid evidence that many characters (i.e. the entire main cast except for Baltar) cannot possibly be Cylons. This is an Analysis page; we don't post "Roslin cannot be a Cylon" into the Laura Roslin article, the place for Analysis is here. As for "very little chance vs. no chance", you are belaboring the point and splitting hairs over random choice of grammer, but if it makes you more comfortable I'll correct the wording throughout.
Mateo, you have not engaged in many of our Analysis articles like the Timeline, this, etc. so I think you are unfamiliar with the line between Analysis and POV which we have faithfully maintined, and you're unfairly declaring all to be POV. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:48, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. But back to the point:
:"The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." Please provide citations from RDM or the show which state that cylons can not have any adult children or siblings. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 20:55, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::"''No, analysis is fine when it's not organized to reach conclusions, which this article does. If it instead simply listed suspects and then gives explanation and says stuff like "some people think that this character's regular association with cylons might mean he/she is one too" then that's acceptable NPOV analysis. ''--->That's not even remotely what this page is like. YES, for every character we have a subheading ticking off the reasons for or against their suspicion as a Cylon, each of these headings is explained at the top of the page, and then in the paragraph for each we explain each of these points. It couldn't be more systematic. What you describe...isn't what's on the page. No, at no point does it say "some people think" something, we've pointed out "Jammer suspiciously is found hiding in a weapons locker when other people in there were found dead", or "Apollo sired a pregnancy, and his father has known him since he was born, and thus he cannot possibly be a Cylon"
::I will add in the link, it was on the *main* "Cylon agent" page, of which "Cylon Agent Speculation" is actually a sub-page due to length issues. Please read that too. Ron Moore said this in a podcast interview with Chase Masterson; I'll post the transcript from that page into this page if it will satsify you. It's in the aptly named subheading "[[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models|Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]]"--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::Excuse me, but holding two conversations at the same time is too difficult. If you want to talk about the larger philosophy of this page please PM me. I will stick to the specific issue at hand. That is this qualification, "The suspect must not have any adult children or siblings." We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 21:19, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::"''We need this to be verified by RDM or otherwise basing an entire page on this POV is problematic.''".....Did you see "[[The Farm]]"? We related the information from that episode into the top of this page, under the bolded heading "children are a disqualifier", and cited "The Farm" in the article for characters. Yes, this is "From RDM" as it is from on-air statements. As for "two conversations"...what 2? I'm just (confusedly) trying to answer this one. I do not understand your PM request. Please if you have a problem I encourage you to ask questions here on the Talk pages. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:35, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::It has already been established that the Cylons cannot breed progeny of their own, hence their Human-Cylon breeding programs, such as the farms and the experiment with Helo and a Number Eight model. It has also been established that, prior to the conception of [[Hera]], that the Cylons had utterly failed in creating a successful hybrid, hence their belief that love was a factor in a successful hybrid birth. Also, from episodes such as "Downloaded", we know that the Cylons began introducing the human-form Cylon agents into Colonial society only two years prior to their attack. So they can't have adult children or siblings -- barring, of course, the occassional retcon or gaffe in logic from the writer standpoint. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::If it has been established then please cite where it was established. If you don't have exact quotes on hand, then please cite at least episode names and descriptions of the scene. Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not '''logically''' mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. Unless it has actually been said that cylons can not procreate (and, for the record, human characters specualting this does not count as evidence, nor does a cylon telling a human count. If two or more cylons are talking to only other cylons, then that would be sufficient for me). Otherwise, the best evidence is, as always, statements made by RDM off the show. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::I am being patient but you have left me actually confused: '''Did you watch the episode "The Farm"''', and '''Did you read the changes to this article that I made over an hour ago?'''----"''Specifically I would like evidence that they can not breed on their own; but be assured that hybrid experminents do not logically mean that cylon/cylon procreation is impossible. It's a perfect and fine POV but not established fact. ''" Did you watch "The Farm"? In "The Farm", Caprica-Sharon *states* on screen that it is impossible for humanoid Cylons to breed with each other. Did you miss this episode?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::I'll pop in the episode right now... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:52, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::'''Yes, I saw the episode'''. Yes, I saw the episode. Please stop asking these types of questions, I've seen every episode. You need to be more specific than that. I have seen every episode but I don't have every scene memorized.
:::::::::Now, if I remember correctly, by this point Caprica Sharon was outed and working with Helo and Starbuck. If she said this to them, then that's not good enough to make it a qualification. You can choose to believe a cylon is telling the truth to humans, but that's a POV, not fact. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 22:54, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::::::::::It's 38 minutes into "The Farm" on the Region 1 DVD. I suggest you re-watch it. Sharon explains that the Cylons have been unsuccessful in breeding on their own, hence the farms and the experiments. It makes sense, and there has been absolutely no indciation that this Sharon has been lying. Now if future events tell otherwise, then the editors here will make those changes accordingly. If it makes everyone feel better, we can say that Caprica-Sharon claims these things, with specific cites and so forth.
::::::::::Again, I am finding that I must point out that this is an article on speculation, and there will be POV in any form of speculation. (Yes, we should aim for its reduction when humanly possible, but it would be unrealistic to believe that all POV will be eradicated.) Also, I personally feel that there is a level of paranoia here with the unfounded fear that this article (and other like it) will become a form of echt-1984 group think. As has been consistently demonstrated on this wiki, our administrators and contributors are level-headed people who would shut down (or seriously retool) this article were it to turn into a cesspool. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Well, if Caprica Sharon was talking to humans, then we have no clue if it's true or not. She could be telling the truth, she could be lying. We simply don't know. We do know that Cylons lie to humans for manipulation purposes. We don't know that this instance is the case. Or not. So basing a ranking system on a POV that she's telling the truth is '''wrong'''.
:::::::::::Of course the article is going to have POV content. I don't care about POV content, I care that the entire article is itself one big POV. What if I don't believe Sharon (and for the record, '''I don't'''), how can I add my input without being excluded? The only way I can see how is to take out the ranking system, leave the "criteria" (renaming it something like "Possible criteria", and simply listing the suspects and giving reasons (that anyone can add their own POV) without ranking them. If you have another way to not exclude someone's POV, please let me hear it. I'm failing to see one. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 11:04, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::::It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny. It fits what the entire show presented up to that point, and brought it together really well. ***'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:20, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in ''favor'' of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses? ---->Caprica-Sharon's revelation at the end of "The Farm" was one of the biggest dumps of information we've had on the Cylon Plan, and rather than something mentioned in passing or in an interview, an entire long scene was devoted to it at the climax of an episode. No, we don't "memorize" every episode, many people are aware of that scene without needing a transcript. ------->I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); '''Consensus''' is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any ''legitimate'' complaints you've had. Lastly, you watch the series so casually that you completely forgot a major plot revelation which was frankly on the same level as Adama getting shot. I'd like you to contribute to BattlestarWiki, but you've A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute. '''I have made every effort to be diplomatic and accomdating about this, but as Apollo said in "Black Market", "there are limits" to how much we can tolerate.''' All you've realy done is made long tirades berating the hard work, well cited and fact supported, of the other wiki users. If all you're going to do is make '''shaky, poorly based''' criticisms of stuff on BattlestarWiki while not contributing even into the ''Discussion'' of the forms that things should take, I think you should reassess whether you want to go on at BattlestarWiki as you have, leave, or honestly try to work hard and learn how to cooperate with everyone here and learn how things work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:39, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::::Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a ''speculation'' page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

Here are my responses to the above two posts since that was getting too vertical:

:It is '''right''' until proven otherwise. The information was presented without implication of lying, and far more importantly--->it is a logical explanation of what (part) of the Cylon plan was, and why they're even trying to have hybrids with humans instead of just having their own progeny.

This is a perfect example of POV. What you should said was "What cylons say to humans should be '''assumed''' true absent of evidence otherwise. That's your POV and that's fine, but this wiki is for everyone, I thought, not just for people who share your POV.

:'''By the logic of "well the Cylons might be lying", we might be so paranoid as to question if the Cylons actually believe in a monotheistic God, or if they've just been stringing the humans along this entire time'''.

''We'' aren't supposed to decide anything about the show. Anywhere that it statest that "Cylons believe in a monotheistic God" it should say "Cylons '''claim they''' believe in a monotheistic God", however if Cylons talk about a monotheistic God with only other cylons around then we know they are telling the truth. That's inaccurate anyways, because not even all cylons believe in a monotheistic god, just most of them.

:"''how can I add my input without being excluded?''"......As Joe suggested '''in the post immediately before your last one''', we could add in little sentences going "(if Caprica-Sharon's statements about the self-sterility of humanoid Cylons are to be believed". Joe *just suggested doing that*. --The Merovingian

That wouldn't change the fact that entire ranking is based on this criteria. The ranking '''assumes''' she is telling the truth. Adding a line in the criteria that she might be lying doesn't help my POV in the ranking system.

:This is like the 2nd or 3rd time in this conversation that you haven't acknowledged points made by other people which were actually in favor of doing something you wanted (I.e. The Farm is already cited, past association with Cylons is removed (I never liked that anyway), and we cited and RDM interview for the no pre-existing humans thing). Are you actually reading our responses?

I acknowledged them by the fact that I have stopped talking about them. If I still had a problem with those points then I would still be raising them. I told you from the beginning that I have a lot of problems with this page. You seem to want me to be content with a couple of fixes, and then ignore the rest.

:I am trying to be diplomatic about this, and I mean this level-headedly: You have not contributed a great deal to BSWiki in the past, and seem confused about how our basic operations run (what Talk pages do, etc.); Consensus is against you and we've been making changes trying to satisfy you Mateo, but you insist on being needlessly belligerant about it, even when we're trying to help and accomodate you. You're not working well with others. I mean this as a honest and good faith suggestion, but if you want to be involved in BattletarWiki, you should re-analyze your position: We've made changes that agree with your demands, and you're still not happy with it; you're not really trying to work through consensus, cooperation, or compromise; you just demanded that this page be destroyed, even when we fixed it up to meet any legitimate complaints you've had.

Huh? First off, consensus can not overrule NPOV. So whether everyone wants to exclude my POV from the article or not is irrelevant... unless BSWiki is not in favor of NPOV.

Secondly, I am not being belligerant. I am not "compromising" because I have nothing to compromise. There is nothing that is solely my POV in the article. What, specifically, am I supposed to compromise on?

I've said from the beginning that a ranking system is going to exclude people's POVs, you have claimed that it will not, and I have proven that it in fact does. You're the one getting angry, not me.

:A) Not worked well with otherse and haven't been willing to compromise or cooperate B) Haven't contributed anything much of substance other than to complain about the work of others, that you did not participate in even in Discussion C) You are not yet familiar with how wikis work, and when I tried to gently explain how to use a Discussion page you demanded that I e-mail you instead, rather than showing signs of trying to learn (which is actually really simple) D) You don't seem very observant about the series, missing a major plot element, casting doubts in my mind as to how much you have to contribute.

A) I don't have anything to compromise with. Nothing in the article (that I'm aware of) excludes your POV. B) Wrong and irrelevant. Cooperating with others doesn't mean throwing out Ad-hominems, so please stop the petty personal attacks, I'm not doing it to you. C) Wrong. Please don't assume to know things about perfect strangers. I've been using wikis for over a year, I know exactly how they work. I didn't "demand" that you email me. We were talking about 2 things at once and I was trying to eliminate one of them as to avoid confusion (which is now ocurring again) by focusing on the most narrow matter and to take the rest to PM '''if you want'''. I didn't demand or even ask you to PM me. D) More ad hominems. It seems that in fact you are the one who is having trouble working well with others. I'm just going to ignore your posts now until you calm down. Please don't attack me personally, I'm not doing it to you and it's certainly not the way to work out problems on a wiki. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

----

:Mateo, as I stated before, if you feel that Sharon is lying (which is something that doesn't compute, seeing as how much trouble the Cylons have gone through to create farms, round up survivors, and gone through the trouble of just finding Helo and putting him with a Number Eight copy), then by all means prove your case with cites to the aired content thst supports your views. Again, this is a speculation page, and speculation that is supported with content from the episodes and from commentary given by RDM and crew will be evaluated by the community. I have no problem in toning down the POV, if there is any to be toned down. The crux of the series is that the Cylons (at least a group of them) are out to become "closer to God", hence their desire to become more human, and procreate and so forth. Again, this page is by no means "final" and the beautiful thing about the wiki format is that things can be changed when there are new developments regarding the show itself. -- Joe Beaudoin So say we all - Donate 12:30, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I shouldn't have to prove my case. You didn't prove your case. That's what NPOV is about, unless facts or known, you shouldn't favor one theory over another. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:00, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

==Anders==
I think we should move Anders from "no possibility" to "low probability", since the major point against him being Cylon is that Cylons on Caprica called him human, and Baltar (who also has been called human by Caprica Cylons) is on the low probability list. The other point is that he was a sports star, so people would have noticed more than one of him walking around, but there is no reason to believe that more than one of him would have been walking around at all. There's no indication that more than one Boomer or Doral was ever in the Colonial star system before the Attack. Not that I think he's a Cylon, but the evidence is not yet conclusive. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:17, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-08-18T16:04:43Z

Mateo: /* POV problem. */

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-08-18T03:54:29Z

Mateo: /* POV problem. */

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-08-18T03:41:15Z

Mateo: /* POV problem. */

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-08-18T02:19:14Z

Mateo: /* POV problem. */

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-08-18T01:55:01Z

Mateo: /* POV problem. */