Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Galactica (TRS)/Archive 1

2007-10-08T03:07:30Z

Maserati1945:

== Nice Work! ==

I enjoy reading about the new Galactica starship and look forward to more details as the series progresses...and to adding my own edits, too.

Keep up the good work on this page.

:On behalf of the rest of the team, thanks! This wiki has grown a lot from the work of a few hundred people and a lot of readers! [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:44, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:I am here, I make the edits. There was little choice in the matter. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]], October 13, 2005

== Formatting Question ==

When formatting the "full name" of ''Galactica'' is it:

*...the ''[[Battlestar]] [[Galactica]]''
*...the [[Battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]''
or
*...the [[Battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]''?

It seems to me that it should be the second.

:"''Galactica''" or "the battlestar ''Galactica''"; never "the ''Galactica''". Battleship and aircraft carrier are not proper nouns, so battlestar isn't either. See [[Battlestar wiki:Standards and Conventions#Ships]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:56, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

==Tallies==

FYI, I'm working on a fairly major revamp of these, using MASON and Joe's source page idea. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:59, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

:Why does it state that Galactica had 2 squadrons of MKVII's on board the ship at the begining of the series? This would be a big inconsistancy with what we saw in the miniseries.

:At the decommisioning ceremony we see one squadron of vipers led by Apollo doing a flyby. This squadron leaves the ship for Caprica after the ceremony and is rerouted to engage the cylons.

:When Starbuck is released from the brig she reports 20 pilots available but no vipers. Adama then orders the MKII's in the museum pressed into service.

:The squadron of MKVII's led by 'Ripper' is then destroyed by the cylon virus.

:IF there were 2 squadrons of MKVII's on the ship, where is that second squadron during all of this? It didn't launch with Ripper's squadron and it wasn't available for Starbuck and the other stranded pilots to use. (They didn't know the MKVII's were useless until after the first squadron was destroyed.)

:It's more likely that the MKVII's we see at Ragnor and later in the series are made up from homeless vipers that were carried to Ragnor with Roslin's fleet, plus a few spares put together from storage aboard Galactica.

::There are clearly twenty vipers on screen in Ripper's squadron. Galactica is then able to sortie a combined squadron of (roughly) 40 Mk. VIIs and Mk. IIs. This makes perfect sense if Galactica has two squadrons of Mk. VIIs based in its active (port) flight pod, and one squadron of Mk. IIs in the museum (starboard) flight pod.

::As for pilots, presumably the ones with ships had something better to do than be "climbing the walls down here". It's fairly typical for a military operation to have more pilots than craft in any case, so that's not an issue. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:47, 4 December 2005 (EST)

Well if there was another squadron of MVII's available at the time Starbuck mentions the 20 odd pilots in the ready room, where is that second squadron? If they are sortied after Ripper's mission, they would have been destroyed by the virus. If they're in the tubes waiting for a mission, why didn't they sortie to defend the ship?

This second squadron is never seen onscreen or mentioned in dialogue in the miniseries. It's more likely it didn't exist and the later MKVII's are refugees. Those vipers are at least seen on screen once, and later in the series its mentioned that there are some pilots from other battlestars flying off Galactica. (Crashdown is described as a refugee from "Triton", for example.)

:Crashdown was a Raptor pilot; Raptors have FTL and could go to another system, but I don't think Vipers could easily escape to Ragnar that well (unless, like Apollo, they landed on a nearby Civilian ship with Jump engines then escaped aboard that, but that seems unlikely).--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:50, 7 December 2005 (EST)
::Didn't Doral say during the flyby at the museum that it was performed by the last Galactica squadron. Since this was the squadron led by Ripper, it pretty much precludes a second squadron. Also, there could have been several Mk VIIs in storage, for spares or down for repairs. Maybe there were extra Mk IIs stored in the starboard hanger. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 17:57, 7 December 2005 (EST)
:::It is likely that they were unservicable and awaited transfer to a dock after ''Galactica'' was officially decomissioned. Also, on the off chance that I might be right, there may have been Vipers on other ships that survived as well. (For instance, there may have been a few were stragglers from earlier engagements, or even patrols that didn't see action during the assault on the Colonies that happened upon Roslin's fleet prior to Ragnar.) Just a thought or three... -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:33, 7 December 2005 (EST)

::::It would be informative to get an actual headcount during the Battle of Ragnar Anchorage. I have the launch scene about 2/3 analyzed, and will probably be able to finish it next week, but the video quality of my recording isn't perfect. I'll let you know what I come up with, in any case. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:33, 7 December 2005 (EST)

::::Oh, one more thing - In the mini, Adama says "I seem to remember an entire squadron of fighters down in the starboard hangar deck yesterday". If there were two squadrons of Mk. IIs, he would've said so. Again, two squadrons of Mk. VIIs (one destroyed) and one squadron of Mk. IIs fits the on-screen evidence nicely. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:48, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::::The only problem with that is that the second squadron doesn't seem to show up until the battle at Ragnor. What was it doing all this time? If the count of MKVII's is under 20, it makes sense that the MKVII's at Ragnor were made up of a small group of spares that were put together onboard Galactica along with whatever refugees were picked up by Roslin's fleet. We know for sure that there were at least three MKVII's with that fleet that were shown onscreen.--Dallan007
:::::Didn't Starbuck's lines in that scene imply that there were no operational fighters. I believe it was something along the lines of "pilots you got, but Vipers..." I think the Mk VIIs they have were straglers the RTFF picked up before they jumped to Ragnar. These could have been on patrol or something and met up with Colonial One et al. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 00:03, 9 December 2005 (EST)
::::::Maybe the Mk. VII wing wasn't sortied before Ragnar because the systems had to be stripped of Baltar's CNP. There are far too many Mk. VIIs in the Ragnar battle to be anything less than a full wing, though. I'll have a real tally up as soon as I can. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:38, 9 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::They didn't know about the CNP weakness yet. The purging didn't happen until they were at Ragnar, after the first sortie. Remember, it was the same time as Doral was accused of being a Cylon. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 07:09, 9 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::Perhaps, before the first sortie, Gaeta had the remaining Mark VIIs grounded as a precaution since he hears of the malfunctions from Dualla before the fight and makes the association with the CNP (he's bright that way). Or, yes, the Mark VIIs were gathered up in Roslin's search (most probable since Galactica should launch everything they had in sortie 1, and they would rather send Mark VII's than the museum pieces). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:10, 9 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::The squadron ready room would seem to imply a 20-ship squadron. There are 24 seats in the ready room, 20 pilots plus a few seats for guests like Apollo. Boomer and Helo were flying with the last Mk VII squadron so it would make sense that they would be there in the mini. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 12:27, 13 December 2005 (EST)

== Redundancy ==
=== Fleet Details ===

'''Designation''': warship, battlestar type, [[Galactica type battlestar|original battlestar class]] (class name unknown).

'''Deployment''': Formerly an element of the [[75th Battlestar Group]] (BSG 75)

'''Current Status''': One of [[Pegasus (RDM) |two]] remaining Colonial military units. ''Galactica'' is commanded by [[William Adama]].

=== Fleet Details Comments ===
The only piece of information in that block which is not mentioned before it is the membership is BSG 75; this was an oversight. I'll add mention of it in the paragraph before. The remainder is redundant and shockingly poor in formatting. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 16:09, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:Since you've been around and not commented, Merovingian, I'll pull it. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:26, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
::I was busy. It's not redundant, and I am restoring it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 12:46, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::What information does it contain that is not elsewhere in this article? --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 13:55, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
::::Boxes provide quick and easy referrence. I mean, we wouldn't have a box listing ship class and armaments by that logic. It's fun, and makes it clearer. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:24, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::That's not a box. The info box made for the purpose does mention the designation and CO. The BSG 75 thing is at best a curiosity utterly unworthy of quick reference, not that I agree that randomly ordered sentence fragments are actually easier to skim. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 14:36, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Seemed pretty redundant to me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:57, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
I still want to delete this. It taunts me in my dreams ...well, not quite, but I don't like it. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 22:36, 17 May 2006 (CDT)

===Turrets===
[[Image:BSG-KEW-Turret.jpg|thumb|An example of one of ''Galactica's'' large projectile weapons.]]
''Galactica's'' defenses include an array of twenty-four large turret mounted, dual-role twin-cannons, and a multitude of smaller turret mounted twin-guns located between the ''Galactica's'' "[[Frame|ribs]]", along the [[flight pod]]s. Together, these provide the ''Galactica'' with a flak field that acts as a defense perimeter against incoming hostiles ([[Miniseries]], "[[Scattered]]"). In addition, the large cannons represent ''Galactica's'' main anti-capital ship weapon, and have been shown to be quite effective against targets like [[Basestar]]s ("[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]").
=== Turrets Comments ===
I don't mind the picture, though I don't think it adds much. It could be tied to the page simply as an illustration of "Armament" per the title of the larger section.
The composition of the turret armament is discussed on the page for the type. The details on the positioning are slightly incorrect, anyway. That they produce flak is obvious; that the large guns are effective against basestars could be assumed, and, if it must be mentioned, should be mentioned on the page for the type. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 16:09, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

:Agree. [[Galactica type battlestar]] should host details relevant to the ship class in general. [[Galactica (RDM)]] should host information only pertinent to the individual battlestar in question. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:46, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

==Battlestar Group==
See [[talk:Pegasus (RDM)#Battlestar Group|talk on Pegasus page]]

==Improvements for featured article status==
I think that we should make the following minor changes before declaring this a featured article:
*Remove "Fleet Details" section, as this merely duplicates information available in the ship infobox
*Reconsider the implementation of the "running tallies" section. My objection is mainly based on the fact that the current setup precludes the use of footnotes in this article, and is probably more information than the average user is interested in. I personally feel that we should break each tally into a separate article and link it from the appropriate summary in the equipment section.
*If, however, we decide keep the running tallies on this page, a simple retitle of the section to "Sources and Rationalle" is necessary. Also, we should seriously consider moving over to the <nowiki><ref></nowiki> tag system, although doing so may make the editing process more cumbersome (with the running tallies scattered throughout the body of the text). --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:25, 8 June 2006 (CDT)
:<strike>Item 1</strike>
:As for #2 (a or b)... I don't have a strong feeling either way. It does seem to overwhelm the bottom, and any other footnootes would get drowned out. I guess I'd lean towards them becoming subarticles (of either Galactica (RDM) or of their respective topic (Viper (RDM), Raptor, etc)), or maybe to the front of their respective topics (on the main of Viper (RDM) and Raptor). I'll defer to others on this one, though. Also... could the article stand to have perhaps one more external shot of ''Galactica''? For an article about her, she doesn't get much visibility (outside the small shot in the data box and the gallery down below). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

::I agree with SteelViper on #2: if you just move it to another article, but keep a link to the tallies section at the bottom, I have no strong feelings on such a change. (BTW, what do you mean "Rationalle"?). --->However, I have to disagree on "Fleet details": I agree that saying its "designation" and "current status" is already in the box, however, the box doesn't mention what Battlestar Group it (nor does this justify changing the box template, because only this article and Pegasus would have such info): I'm going to change it back to a compromise position and tell me what you think. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:04, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:::On second thought, nevermind: it already says enough about BSG info in the introductory paragraph. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:06, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
::::That's the EXACT same progression I went through. "Hey, that isn't in the... oh. There it is." --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:07, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

I've tried breaking out the Raptor and Viper tallies into their own articles. Let me know what you think; it's easy to revert if people don't like it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:35, 10 June 2006 (CDT)

:I didn't see anything wrong with the breakout; I was severely dismayed by the self-argumentative tone in one section of the article (now revised). I've also made significant concision and adjustments as well as adding more links to material that should give the article more ''ooompf''. I may review this again as I'm sure more things here just didn't sit right with me. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:27, 10 June 2006 (CDT)

What's left todo on this before "FA" status? Also... any thoughts on my picture thought above? (Another external shot of "Big G" somewhere else on this page?) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:32, 12 June 2006 (CDT)

:External shots should be of ''Galactica'' doing something recognizably "Galactica-ish", to contrast with the beauty shots in [[Galactica type battlestar]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:38, 12 June 2006 (CDT)

:Agreed. I've also gone through the article again and given the language more polish and super-conventionized it. I'm happy with the text, but fresh photos of the Big G moving about would be neat. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:54, 12 June 2006 (CDT)

::Looking through the "screenshots" category, I wasn't impressed by the selection. I hit Galacticastation for some examples and looked at the mini since I figured they'd feature her prominently there. I found [http://www.galacticastation.com/Galactica%20Station/Screencaps/mini/001%20(258).htm top view], [http://www.galacticastation.com/Galactica%20Station/Screencaps/mini/001%20(290).htm side viper], and [http://www.galacticastation.com/Galactica%20Station/Screencaps/mini/001%20(572).htm side Fleet]. Of the three, "side Fleet" is my favorite, but that's a fairly small sample. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:59, 12 June 2006 (CDT)

:::They're all pretty nice. We could sprinkle them throughout the article for flavor. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:15, 12 June 2006 (CDT)

:::I would love to see "side Fleet" on the pictureless [[The Fleet (RDM)]] article. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:33, 12 June 2006 (CDT)

::::Should I go ahead and upload the Galacticastation versions (576x320), or should we have one of our resident screen capture artists grab something higher quality (DVD or High-def)? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:23, 12 June 2006 (CDT)

:::::Upload the ones you've got, and put a notice on [[Battlestar Wiki:Requested Images|Requested Images]] for higher quality versions. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:20, 12 June 2006 (CDT)

::::::Internal links to:
::::::[[:Image:Mini gal top.jpg|top view]]
::::::[[:Image:Mini gal side viper.jpg|side viper]]
::::::[[:Image:Mini side fleet.jpg|side fleet]]
::::::They're prepped and ready to be added to the gumbo that is the wiki (though they could probably use better tagging, but being from Galacticastation I'm not sure of the original signal source). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:53, 13 June 2006 (CDT)
:::::::Side viper and top view added. I added them as non-thumbnails in an effort for them to be less intrusive. I left out "side fleet" as that got added to [[the Fleet (RDM)]], but it could be added if somebody wants to make room. We should be careful not to overdo it. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:10, 13 June 2006 (CDT)

:::::::: I changed them to thumbs because I think it looks cleaner having a clear delineation between text and image. Revert if you wish and we can talk about it. I also added some kind of place-holder captions, which might be improved upon by someone who has a clearer idea of the purpose of the images are (other than look: a space boat). --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 23:55, 13 June 2006 (CDT)

I added appropriate captions to the thumbs. I'm normally a non-thumb guy as I think we overuse it for pictures where the context is already present and so further captioning is unnecessary, nor do I see the bordering as needed. However, the thumbs here don't detract, so there you go. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:13, 14 June 2006 (CDT)
:So is this good to go for "FA"? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:25, 14 June 2006 (CDT)
::I think the article's come a long way; yes, I believe it's ready. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:32, 14 June 2006 (CDT)
What do you guys think of the orthos I added to the bottom. (Thanks Mercifull, I forgot to add back in the bottom one.) --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 17:30, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

:That Starship Modeler booger on the 2nd image annoys me since it wasn't their image in the first place. I'd rather get rid of it or get a clean one (it appears to be merely cropped from the first, anyway). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:13, 15 June 2006 (CDT)

== Starboard flight pod ==

That sure as hell looked like the starboard flight pod during the Adama Maneuver. Anyone agree? --[[User:Kevin W.|Kevin W.]] 18:14, 11 November 2006 (CST)
* Not only that, I'm pretty sure I heard a reference in A Measure of Salvation to a landing in the starboard pod. Fair to say it's back in service? [[User:Mr. Random|Mr. Random]] 14:57, 14 November 2006 (CST)

== Missile tubes ==

I think we should include the missile tubes along with Galactica's other weapon systems. When Adama ordered the Galactica to prepare for the ground strike, he had them load tubes 4 through 10, which means there are at least 10 missile tubes. However the effect shot seemed to show (at least to my current recollection) 2 rows of missile tubes, one of which had every door open but one, which would mean Galactica has 14 tubes, at least. She may have more on the other side of the ship (were the tubes mounted on the top of the hull or the bottom? I couldn't tell.) [[User:Gutter Monkey|Gutter Monkey]] 20:55, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:Top of the ship, and I think it was 12 tubes not 14. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:49, 16 December 2006 (CST)

::Yep, definitely twelve tubes; two rows of six. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 03:58, 17 December 2006 (CST)

:::Good, my eyes aren't failing me (Yet). --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:07, 17 December 2006 (CST)

== Armor plating ==

If I recall, the ribs on ''Galactica's'' hull were supposedly covered with armor plating originally. Which would imply that at the time of the First Cylon War it was in place. However, in the first Razor flashback, there was no armor plating, even though the ship was fairly new at the time. Just an oversight maybe, any thoughts? --[[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 22:07, 7 October 2007 (CDT)

Yahren

2007-06-23T20:45:29Z

Maserati1945: /* Notes */

A '''yahren''' is a Colonial measurement of time, analogous to an Earth '''[[Wikipedia:Year|year]]'''; plural form is same as singular, "yahren".

==Notes==
* Within some fan circles, a yahren is considered to be around two-thirds (2/3) the length of an Earth year, thus helping to explain the relative longevity of Colonial people compared to Terran humans. This reasoning is picked up in [[Richard Hatch]]'s sequel novels. The glossary in the first novel, ''[[Armaggedon]]'', states that a yahren is 200 days.

* In the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]], time appears to be measured by the Colonials as is done on Earth with the term ''year''. Since a year is considered the time it takes for the real-world Earth to revolve once around the sun, the use of "year" is confusing, given that the Twelve Colonies consist of several Earth-type worlds that [[Cyrannus (system)|may orbit a sun or series of suns, or even exist in adjacent solar systems]] and so have revolution times that may differ dramatically. The Fleet stays on New Caprica for 380 "days" before the Cylon fleet arrives, and this is deemed to be approximately a year.

* Curiously, a brief mention of "yahren" appears in the documents visible at [[Armistice Station]] in the Re-imagined [[Miniseries]].
* It is possible that "yahren" is an older term in Colonial society of the Re-imagined Series, and is being phased out of common usage.

==See also==
*[[Thousand Yahren War]]
*[[List of terms (TOS)]]

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial]]
[[Category:Colonial Society]]
[[Category:Colonial Society (TOS)]]
[[Category:Figures of Speech]]
[[Category:Terminology]]
[[Category:Terminology (TOS)]]
[[Category:Units of Time]]
[[Category:Units of Measure]]
[[Category:TOS]]
{{TOS}}

Yahren

2007-06-23T20:44:16Z

Maserati1945: /* Notes */ notes on usage of yahren

A '''yahren''' is a Colonial measurement of time, analogous to an Earth '''[[Wikipedia:Year|year]]'''; plural form is same as singular, "yahren".

==Notes==
* Within some fan circles, a yahren is considered to be around two-thirds (2/3) the length of an Earth year, thus helping to explain the relative longevity of Colonial people compared to Terran humans. This reasoning is picked up in [[Richard Hatch]]'s sequel novels. The glossary in the first novel, ''[[Armaggedon]]'', states that a yahren is 200 days.

* In the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]], time appears to be measured by the Colonials as is done on Earth with the term ''year''. Since a year is considered the time it takes for the real-world Earth to revolve once around the sun, the use of "year" is confusing, given that the Twelve Colonies consist of several Earth-type worlds that [[Cyrannus (system)|may orbit a sun or series of suns, or even exist in adjacent solar systems]] and so have revolution times that may differ dramatically. The Fleet stays on New Caprica for 380 "days" before the Cylon fleet arrives, and this is deemed to be approximately a year.

* Curiously, a brief mention of "yahren" appears in the documents visible at [[Armistice Station]] in the Re-imagined [[Miniseries]].
* It is possible that "yahren" is an older term in Galactica (RDM) society, and is being phased out of common usage.

==See also==
*[[Thousand Yahren War]]
*[[List of terms (TOS)]]

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial]]
[[Category:Colonial Society]]
[[Category:Colonial Society (TOS)]]
[[Category:Figures of Speech]]
[[Category:Terminology]]
[[Category:Terminology (TOS)]]
[[Category:Units of Time]]
[[Category:Units of Measure]]
[[Category:TOS]]
{{TOS}}

Talk:Viper Mark II/Archive 1

2007-02-07T08:17:57Z

Maserati1945: /* FTL in Vipers / the Blackbird */

==Powerplant==

It seems to me that the engine type should be a hybrid of rocket and jet engine. Rockets use a mix of two internal fuels, an actual propellant and an oxidizer. It appears maybe, to save fuel the Vipers' powerplants have intakes to grab oxidizer from the atmosphere when necessary. What's everyone else's opinion? - [[User:Panther|Panther]] 20:59, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
:Well one of the [[Naturalistic science fiction|Goals of the series]] is to not really worry about how the ships run. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:05, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
::No shit, eh? ;) Still one of the joys of being a sci-fi fan is to speculate on the tech. I gotta wonder though are those fans on the sides inside the engine nacelles intake fans? That would make it a jet. :D [[User:Panther|Panther]] 03:35, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I agree with you completely, Panther. My joy is to make articles such as [[Computers]] to glean what we do know. The intakes, as we should properly guess, is a holdback from the original TOS Viper design. It just looks like a jet fighter. I do believe your idea of getting oxidizers whenever possible helps, although we know as well that it's more likely to maintain status quo on the excessive fuel use inside an atmosphere. In space, they may or may not need a real oxidizer, but then, that's the magic of [[tylium]]. We don't know WHAT the hell it really needs. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:43, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:During the miniseries Tyrol says something along the lines of "The reactors are still hot, all we have to do is pull the rad buffers and fuel them". So maybe it's not a chemical reaction that provides thrust but a nuclear-driven one, or an electrical one powered by a nuclear reactor. Possibilities are raw fuel being pumped through a hot reactor, the heat causing the fuel to expand, thus creating thrust. Another possibility is ion-propulsion, where atoms of fuel are ionized by a strong electrical field and accelerated out of the spacecraft by a strong magnetic field. Of course tylium is described as being highly explosive, and neither heating or ionizing would require an explosive fuel, so...--[[User:PassiveSmoking|PassiveSmoking]] 17:48, 6 February 2007 (CST)

== FTL in Vipers / the Blackbird ==

The Viper (RDM) articles say that the Vipers do not have FTL. However, it was seen several times in the miniseries that they do:
*Apollo links the shield generators onboard Colonial One with the FTL on his Viper to pull of the trick that makes it look like they are destroyed.
*Boomer jumps back to the fleet with the Tyllium refinery ship in tow.
There have also been several occasions in the series, I just can't think of them at the moment. Obviously, the Vipers do have some sort of short-range, limited-use FTL. What does everyone else think? --[[User:KenoSarawa|KenoSarawa]] 18:46, 12 November 2006 (CST)
:Umm, I don't remember Apollo doing, that. I'll go watch it again. Boomer is flying a [[Raptor]] which does have FTL. There has been no mention or showing that Vipers carry FTLs. Doubtless Apollo would be searching for ships like Boomer was if his did. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:41, 12 November 2006 (CST)
::Okay, went and watched it. He said he used the hyperdrive to manipulate it. If it was the Viper's FTL, it sticks out among the consistant non-FTL Vipers we've seen many times in the show. There are times when a short range FTL would've been used if it existed: the fighters running to Galactica in [[Act of Contrition]], Apollo's strike team in [[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]], etc. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:54, 12 November 2006 (CST)
:::He used the hyperdrive of Colonial One to manipulate the coils from Galactica in the cargo bay. At no time does he mention his Viper. --[[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 01:16, 07 February 2007 (CST)

== Steering a viper ==

Two things seen or mentioned in the Episode ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]) are that,
firstly, Vipers have some kind of "Thruster pedal" (Adm. Adama sais so while speaking to Starbuck about her knee being the reason for letting her not participate) and secondly in the scene where Apollo flys through the shaft you can see in one scene that he sees an obstacle, pulls the joystick backwards, and in the next that some kind of reverse thrusters are fired without pulling up the ship's nose.
So one can think that forward thrust is on a pedal and reverse thrust on the "pitch" axis of the joystick?
That they use the same terms like normal fighterplanes is said by Starbuck while she was crawling in the Cylon-fighter on board the moon she stranded on. - [[User:Destotelhorus|Destotelhorus]] 17:40, 9 January 2007 (CST)
:Real spacecraft have six basic degrees of freedom; pitch, roll, yaw, and thrusting back and forth along each axis. This means that a six degree of freedom pilot input system is needed. Pedals tend to be associated with controlling the rudder on aircraft, but in a dual-role craft which can handle both space and atmospheric flight, it would make sense for rudder pedals to drive an actual rudder control surface in atmospheric flight and to operate yaw thrusters in space.

:NASA space craft from Apollo onwards (maybe Gemini too but I'm not sure) used a pair of joystick-like devices for the six axis controls. The right-hand stick is similar to a typical joystick but it can also rotate clockwise and anti-clockwise around its shaft. This controller is called the Rotation Hand Controller (RHC) and controls pitch, roll and yaw. The left hand stick also provides 3 degrees of freedom but has a somewhat different design and is known as the Translation Hand Controller (THC).

:I imagine the Viper joystick operates like the RHC, except in only 2 axis. The yaw axis is controlled by the pedals. There would also have to be an additional control that would operate as a combination throttle (for atmospheric flight| and THC (for translation manoeuvres in space). The pilot works the stick with his right hand, the throttle/THC with his left and rudder/yaw thrusters with his feet.

:As for what the actors do during manoeuvres, it's probably from the "waggle the controls and try to look cool" school for acting, I wouldn't read too much into what you see them doing and how it relates to how the spacecraft moves. After all, having forward thrust on a pedal and reverse thrust on the stick makes no sense, an aircraft designed like that would be totally counter-intuitive to fly.
--[[User:PassiveSmoking|PassiveSmoking]] 17:43, 6 February 2007 (CST)

Galactica Discovers Earth, Part II

2007-01-05T10:16:56Z

Maserati1945: /* Summary */

{{Episode Data
| image = gal802.jpg
| title= Galactica Discovers Earth, Part 2
| series= 1980
| season=
| episode= 2
| writer= [[Glen A. Larson]]
| story=
| director= [[IMDB:nm0370868|Sidney Hayers]]
| guests= [[Herbert Jefferson Jr]] as [[Boomer (TOS)|Boomer]]
| production= 1.2
| rating=
| US airdate= 1980-02-03
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population=
| prev=[[Galactica Discovers Earth, Part I]]
| next=[[Galactica Discovers Earth, Part III]]
}}
== Overview ==

:''The Battlestar'' [[Galactica (TOS)|Galactica]] ''and the Colonial fleet reach the planet [[Earth]], but soon realize that the [[Cylons (TOS)|Cylon]] fleet, long thought to be gone, has trailed them to the fabled planet, and will stop at nothing to extinguish all human life.''
==Summary==
[[Image:Wow.jpg|thumb|left|Willy discovers the Vipers]]
* The young boy Willy arrives home to tell his dad he's found two spaceships. His dad is skeptical but eventually decides to take a look.

* When Willy's father sees the [[Viper (TOS)|Vipers]], he calls the police.

* Meanwhile, [[Jamie Hamilton]] has reached the UBC television studios, where her interview is not going well. During the interview, she is interrupted to take a phone call from [[Dillon]]. Jamie refuses to talk and hangs up.

* [[Donald Mortinson|Dr. Mortenson]] calls Jamie, having determined she was the somehow connected with [[Troy (1980)|Troy]] and Dillon.

* Overhearing part of this conversation, Mr. Brooks the UBC station manager, offers Jamie a reporting job if she can manage to get an interview with Mortinson and Jamie agrees.

* Followed by a UBC camera crew in a van, Jamie goes to meet Mortinson as planned, and Troy and Dillon catch up to her on the way.

* When Mortenson arrives, he is pleased to meet the Colonials, but realizes Jamie is trying to get him on film.

* Troy suggests they leave, and the four get into the doctor's car.

* As the UBC van sets off after them, Dillon grabs the wheel and a wacky car chase ensues.

* Dillon plows the car into the front of a store, but the four are without injury and manage to escape by use of the invisibility screen.

* Leaving Mortinson behind, Troy, Dillon, and Jamie return to [[Galactica (TOS)|''Galactica'']].

* The Vipers cross the night sky and are witnessed by Willy, his Dad and the police - but the police discount them as shooting stars.

* Arriving at ''Galactica'', an amazed Jamie accompanies Troy and Dillon to the briefing with [[Adama (1980)|Adama]].

* While the two were away on Earth, [[Xavier]] has been arguing with Adama over the merits of introducing technological advancements to Earth in 1980, and taken matters into his own hands.

* Xavier steals [[Doctor Zee|Doctor Zee's]] time machine, to travel to the past and through making changes to history speed up the technological development of the Earth.

* Doctor Zee determines that Xavier has gone back to Nazi Germany during World War II.

* Troy, Dillon, and Jamie launch for Earth and using Doctor Zee's space warp travel backwards in time. The process alters the molecules in their clothes, leaving their uniforms white in color.

* Arriving in the skies over 1944 Germany, the Colonials avoid the pursuing Luftwaffe, and Troy and Dillon land the Vipers in a field.

* Suddenly, the trio sees a B-17 sail into view, under heavy fire. The plane is downed, but a lone parachutist makes it down.

* The parachutist is Major Stockwell, who is in Germany to try and sabotage the new V-2 rocket which is being tested nearby.

* On their way to the rocket base, Troy, Dillon, Stockwell, and Jamie observer a transport of Jews about to be shipped to Auschwitz.

* They manage to free a single young girl, and take her with them as they head to a home owned by one of Stockwell's contacts.

* Suddenly, the SS arrives to raid the house. The team uses the invisibility cloak and avoids capture.

* Promising to help those who were taken by the SS later, Troy determines that they need first to find Xavier.

* Xavier is indeed at the rocket base, posing as a British rocket scientist with Nazi sympathies.

* He is overseeing the testing of an augmented V-2 - equipped with a Galactican jet.
[[Image:Soldiers.jpg|thumb|Troy and Dillon in disguise]]
* Dressed as German soldiers, the Galacticans, Jamie and Stockwell sneak into the base just in time to see the V-2 sitting on the pad, awaiting the test that could give the Nazis the upper hand in World War Two, altering Earth's history.

==Notes==

* Segments of the episode were filmed at the Golden Oak Ranch. The [[w:Nazi|Nazi]] rocket base was filmed in part on the [[w:Universal Studios|Universal Studios]] backlot.

== Guest Stars ==
*[[imdb:nm0528433|Richard Lynch]] as [[Xavier]]
*[[imdb:nm0728411|Robbie Rist]] as [[Doctor Zee]]
*[[imdb:nm0001658|Robert Reed]] as [[Donald Mortinson]]
*[[imdb:nm0831791|Christopher Stone]] as Major Stockwell
*[[imdb:nm0667292|Albert Paulsen]] as (unknown)
*[[imdb:nm0877027|Louis Turenne ]] as (unknown)
*[[imdb:nm0835021|Michael Strong]] as (unknown)
*[[imdb:nm0391050|Fred Holliday]] as Mr. [[Brooks]]
*[[imdb:nm0311811|Ted Gehring]] as Sheriff
*[[imdb:nm0523142|Curt Lowens]] as German Commander
*[[imdb:nm0662731|James R. Parkes]] as Walt Griffin
*[[imdb:nm0942257|Bruce Wright]] as Aide
*[[imdb:nm0268114|Adam Star]] as Willie Griffin
*[[imdb:nm0290261|Missy Francis]] as Little Girl
*[[imdb:nm0553138|Todd Martin ]] as 3rd German
*[[imdb:nm0954823|John Zenda]] as 3rd Cop
*[[imdb:nm0390683|Erik Holland]] as 2nd German Officer
*[[imdb:nm0286920|Erik Forst]] as 1st German Officer

{{Episode List (1980)}}

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:1980]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Glen A. Larson]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Sidney Hayers]]

Talk:The Hand of God (RDM)/Archive 1

2007-01-04T08:20:42Z

Maserati1945: /* Star Wars Similarities */

==Star Wars Similarities==

Personally, I felt there were more similarities than just the tunnel scene. It seemed a lot like the battle on the Death Star:

The last remaining one-man fighter in an outnumbered and desparate force drops two warheads onto a precise spot to destroy an installation.

Just a thought.

[[User:YIIMM|YIIMM]] 01:49, 4 January 2007 (CST)

In the commentary by Ron Moore for that episode, he does say that the tunnel scene is a bit of an homage to the Death Star tunnel scene in Return of the Jedi, but more realistic because it doesnt happen at 500mph nor seem impossible to navigate through, just difficult. But I would say that the rest of the battle is not similar at all, the decoys, the hidden fighters, etc.
[[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 02:20, 4 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:The Hand of God (RDM)/Archive 1

2007-01-04T08:19:37Z

Maserati1945: /* Star Wars Similarities */

==Star Wars Similarities==

Personally, I felt there were more similarities than just the tunnel scene. It seemed a lot like the battle on the Death Star:

The last remaining one-man fighter in an outnumbered and desparate force drops two warheads onto a precise spot to destroy an installation.

Just a thought.

[[User:YIIMM|YIIMM]] 01:49, 4 January 2007 (CST)
In the commentary by Ron Moore for that episode, he does say that the tunnel scene is a bit of an homage to the Death Star tunnel scene in Return of the Jedi, but more realistic because it doesnt happen at 500mph nor seem impossible to navigate through, just difficult. But I would say that the rest of the battle is not similar at all, the decoys, the hidden fighters, etc.

Margaret Edmondson

2006-12-01T04:21:17Z

Maserati1945: /* Biography */ tense change

{{Character Data
|photo= MaggieCrop.jpg
|age=
|colony=
|birthname= Margaret Edmondson
|callsign= Racetrack
|death=
|seen= Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II
|parents=
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status=
|role= [[Raptor]] pilot and [[ECO]], assigned to [[battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]''
|rank= Lieutenant
|actor= [[Leah Cairns]]
|cylon=
|name=
}}

Lt. '''Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson''' is a female [[Raptor]] pilot aboard [[battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]''. She harbors a deep hatred of the Cylons, almost certainly because of the loss of loved ones during the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. In her job she is competent and trusted, although she is willing to put her personal beliefs above duty. Racetrack tends to have a dark, fairly cynical attitude after the Cylon attack.

== Biography ==
Racetrack accompanies [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon "Boomer" Valerii]] on a mission to destroy a Cylon [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]]. She witnesses Boomer's attempted assassination of [[William Adama]] in ''Galactica's'' [[CIC]] ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). Immediately after, she informs the CIC staff that Boomer returned from placing the nuclear warhead inside the basestar orbiting [[Kobol]] without her helmet on and that she probably gave away ''Galactica's'' position to the Cylons ([[Scattered]]).

Racetrack pilots the Raptor carrying [[Lee Adama]]'s [[SAR]] mission to Kobol, encountering fire from Cylon anti-aircraft missiles. [[Galen Tyrol]] fells the missiles' [[DRADIS]] dish on the surface, and they fail to lock on. Racetrack's Raptor then destroys the [[Cylon Centurion|Centurions]] on the ground with a volley of missiles, and recovers the trapped ''Galactica'' crewmen ([[Fragged]]).

Racetrack aids the escape of President [[Laura Roslin]] from the [[brig]] by falsely claiming that her [[Raptor]] was having technical problems, enabling the furloughed Lee Adama to report to the hangar bay instead of the brig per his arrest. She then helps prep the Raptor used as the escape craft for launch, but remains on ''Galactica'' ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]). On Boomer's death, Edmondson becomes the only person in the Fleet who has seen the inside of a basestar.

Racetrack serves as ECO on [[Raptor 1]], plotting the best point of orbital entry when taking Commander Adama to [[Kobol]] to find and meet with President Roslin ([[Home, Part II]]). Since then, Margaret flies basic supply runs between ''Galactica'' and [[The Fleet (RDM)|the fleet]]. She continues to light candles for fallen comrades in the Cylon attack. She is almost certain she will eventually die on a mission, and is more focused on taking out as many Cylons as she can before that happens ([[Final Cut]]).

Racetrack, along with many other pilots, intially snubs [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] upon his return because of his romantic relationship with the Caprica-originated copy of Sharon Valerii. After she insults [[Kara Thrace]] over the matter, Starbuck pushes Racetrack face-first into a card table ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). Racetrack later congratulates Helo on his help with the [[Blackbird]], whose [[DRADIS]]-absorbing carbon composites Helo suggested, which serves as a quiet apology for her earlier rudeness.

[[Image:Racetrack2.jpg|left|thumb|Edmondson aboard a Raptor]]
Racetrack is particularly overjoyed when ''Galactica'' encounters the [[Mercury class battlestar|advanced battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''. While socializing with ''Pegasus'' pilots in the hangar bay, she fails to understand Starbuck's contempt for the "scorecards" on which they tally their kills ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]). Racetrack's Raptor rescues the unconscious Apollo during the [[Battle of the Resurrection Ship]], and she revives him using defibrilator paddles in her emergency gear ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]). When Racetrack transports Apollo and a squad of Marines to check the ''[[Daru Mozu]]'' for signs of sabotage by Cylon sympathizers, her vessel narrowly escapes the ensuing explosion ([[Epiphanies]]). Racetrack also later flew a Raptor transporting Apollo back from [[Cloud 9]] after he spent some off duty time there with [[Shevon]] ([[Black Market]]).

Racetrack is a pilot during Starbuck's rescue mission for 20 Raptors to make a series of ten Sharon-enhanced jumps to Caprica to rescue the survivors there. On the first jump, Racetrack's Raptor jumps to the wrong coordinates, ending up in a gas cloud. Starbuck and the main group proceed on without her. Preparing to return to ''Galactica'', Racetrack picks up a lot of gravity distortions on her sensors and upon clearing the gas cloud she discovers an inhabited planet that the Fleet could colonize ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]). Though the planet turned out to be marginally habitable at best, it would later be named [[New Caprica]], and most of the human survivors of the fleet would settle down there permanently ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

Racetrack remained with the fleet and flew missions to detect communications from the [[New Caprica Resistance]] ([[Occupation]]). She also played a leading role in the rescue mission to New Caprica ([[Exodus, Part I]]).

Although she is a qualified Raptor pilot, Edmondson agrees to serve as [[Sharon Agathon]]'s ECO after the crews of ''Galactica'' and ''Pegasus'' are combined and far more pilots than aircraft are available, because she thinks being ECO is better than not flying at all.
On her first mission with Agathon, the two make a recon flight to the [[Lion's Head Nebula]] to investigate a clue to the location of Earth. The information proves to be correct, but they also find a deserted Cylon [[basestar]] ([[Torn]]).

==Notes==

[[Image:Edmonson caption.jpg|thumb|The incorrect spelling for Edmondson occurs here; it is, however, correct on the nameplate of the [[Raptor]] she flies.]]
[[Image:Racetrack's Raptor.jpg|thumb|A shot of the [[Raptor]] with the correct spelling.]]
*Racetrack was probably created as a replacement for [[Crashdown]], the ECO of whichever Raptor a given episode focuses on; Crashdown himself was created as a replacement for [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] after he was stranded. Racetrack was introduced in the first season finale, simultaneous with the seeds of Crashdown's demise: signs of his incompetence for command while stranded on Kobol.
*Racetrack's given name was revealed in the episode "[[Final Cut]]". Her name was misspelled in the caption during her interview, however, as noted by [[Bradley Thompson]] (See [[Sources:Margaret Edmondson]]). Confusion about her name's spelling resulted in Racetrack's last name being mispelled in the end credits of many episodes in Season 2, although is corrected in Season 3.
*Ron Moore noted in his [[podcast]] to "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]," Racetrack's debut episode, that she was only meant to be a one-shot character, like [[Karl Agathon|Helo]]. But, just as with [[Tahmoh Penikett]]'s performance in [[Miniseries|the Miniseries]], Leah Cairns' performance in the episode was impressive and she was decided to be a new recurring character.
*A fan of [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], "[[User:Sabaceanbabe|Sabaceanbabe]]", once wrote a short fanfiction romance scene between Helo and Racetrack (located [http://sabaceanbabe.livejournal.com/38792.html here], scroll down to part 5). [[Tahmoh Penikett]], who plays Helo, and actress Leah Cairns read it at a party, and Cairns decided that she'd work that into the character. While not canonical or acknolwedged by the writers, Cairns said in an [http://podcasts.lvrocks.com/details.aspx?castid=5 interview] on June 27th, 2006, that she chose to incorporate this into her character backstory and how she plays scenes with Helo, that she is wildly attracted to him and jealous of [[Sharon Agathon|Caprica-Sharon]]. Although Caprica-Sharon isn't supposed to know about this, Penikett reacts with underlying tension in his scenes with her.

{{sourcebox}}
 

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Edmondson, Margaret]]
[[Category:Characters|Edmondson, Margaret]]
[[Category:Characters (RDM)|Edmondson, Margaret]]
[[Category:RDM|Edmondson, Margaret]]

Talk:Valkyrie/Archive 1

2006-11-23T09:45:06Z

Maserati1945: /* Class / Type / Dimensions */

Before anyone asks, here is the source: http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000pbh0a/g261 
See the seal in the background --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:59, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:Good Job Serenity!--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:38, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::I didn't create the article though :p --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:42, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::Yeah, but you spotted the name on the seal. Well, whoever spotted it first, good job!--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:44, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::Anyone else notice Tigh?--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:47, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::You mean the eye? This is probably flashback scene. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:50, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::With Admiral pips?[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])18:52, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::::The description below says "'''Commander''' William Adama", as opposed to the next photo. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:56, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::::The rank differences clearly IDs the photo spot as a flashback. Look at the pips on the collar! What are the left collar pips verses the rank pips on the right? (Right-Left relative to the wearer) This is especially noticable on the Admiral Corman shot. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:02, 31 October 2006 (CST)

It's most likely a flashback. Maybe Adama and Tigh served on the Valkyrie and that's where [[Bulldog]] was under Adama's command. I can't really make out the rank pins. They look a bigger than Commander's insignia, but the picture quality isn't that good --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:09, 31 October 2006 (CST)

Another question, in 8 of 9 shot on that webpage, I am guessing its a flashback scene because Lee is wearing Captain's pips, but he also has a Battlestar Galactica badge on his shoulder. I thought he wasn't assigned to the Galactica prior to the miniseries? Is that the implication here or a clothing manfunction? hehe...--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:26, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:I read something that he might be demoted back to Captain. Not sure about it, but it makes sense. I guess they could keep him as Major or even Colonel, but there isn't really a job opening for a Commander at the moment.
:But looking at it more closely that might even be Major. Major and Captain look very similar, with Major having three chevron, the top one of which is directly on the diamond's edge --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:28, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::The original [[Jackson Spencer|CAG]] of Galactica that we see was a Major. Also, in the Miniseries, Apollo didn't wear a unit patch at all on his shoulder when he got to Galactica, pehaps since he was in the Reserves. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:21, 3 November 2006 (EST)
::In "[[Torn]]", the name plate on Lee's viper reads "Maj. Lee Adama". So I don't think he will be demoted any time soon. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:54, 10 November 2006 (CST)
I've deleted this line "both William Adama and Saul Tigh served on the Valkyrie" this is not canon, also many rumors going around are that Adama was involved in a covert operations against the cylons so he might have simply gone to the Valkyrie to be issued orders or debriefed etc, point is, we don't know. --[[user:lordmutt|lordmutt]] 19:13, 10 November 2006 (EST)
:There is a two-minute video out there, that pretty much confirms that Adama and Tigh were sent to ''Valkyrie'' for a special mission. Something about using a stealth ship to make a reconnaissance flight into Cylon space. The ship was flown by Novacek who was then captured by the Cylons. I also like that this shoots down the silly theories that the Blackbird was the Colonial's first stealth ship. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:52, 10 November 2006 (CST)
:: Concur. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:55, 10 November 2006 (CST)

== Class / Type / Dimensions ==
Now, for the time being, does ''Valkyrie'' go down as a ''Valkyrie''-type Battlestar (until someone at the "Head Office" finally tells us details like this)? I '''''especially''''' like how ''Galactica'', ''Pegasus'', and now ''Valkyrie'' are all different styles and sizes, but yet are still classified as ''battlestars''. This shows a degree of realism, creativity, and dynamicism among our intrepid Powers That Be — they're not going to pull the weak, canned trick of reusing the same model over and over and over again, ad nauseum. Also, ''hopefully'', it stomps on ''any'' musings amongst certain overzealous fans of such genres as Star Wars and Star Trek who have this bad habit of immediately speculating and squabbling over if a ship is a battleship, destroyer, frigate, etc. In this case, it would seem that, regardless of size and/or layout, a battlestar is a battlestar is a battlestar. End of line.

On that note, it would appear that ''Valkyrie'' is infact smaller than ''Galactica'', perhaps with reduced capabilities (weapons and embarked Vipers and Raptors quantities, etc.), less crew. It would also appear that she has less engines in her differently shaped array, which would make sense for a smaller, less massive starship.

Lastly, and unrelated to ''Valkyrie'' directly, that stealth recon craft was ''badass'', wasn't it? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 23:49, 17 November 2006 (CST)

I'm not so sure that the Valkyrie is a less capable ship than the Galactica. From what Tigh said about Adama's "graceful retirement' it seems that the Valkyrie was actually a pretty prestigious command. I had always thought that commanding the Galactica was a great honor, but Tigh's words seem to indicate otherwise. Ships tend to get smaller as the technology progresses because of the reduced manpower requirement. Perhaps the smaller size of the Valkyrie is an indication of this. Theres no real numbers for the dimensions of the Valkyrie or anything to scale it to, but I also got the sense that it was smaller than the Pegasus or Galactica. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 02:16, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:I disagree with that. A smaller ship is going to have less physical space to carry fighter craft and supplies. If ''Valkyrie'' is smaller than ''Galactica'' and ''Pegasus'', then its gun batteries are smaller, which means they're firing lighter shells, which translates into less penetration, smaller warheads, less damage. A smaller ship has less volume to absorb damage with, meaning less staying power in a battle.
:That doesn't mean it can't still be a prestigious command, though. If it were a very new ship, even if it weren't the most powerful, it would still be a plum assignment.--[[User:Grin Reaper|Grin Reaper]] 07:08, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::That's not always completely true. For example, the modern Arleigh Burke (DDG-51) class destroyer is about 500 feet long. It's replaced the 560 foot long Spruance and Kidd class destroyers and is also much more powerful than the old Long Beach (721 fl) and other old cruisers. It's almost as powerful as the other current surface warship, the Ticonderoga class cruiser, built on a Spruance hull. The only reason our modern carriers are so much larger than the old WWII bird farms, is that the planes are much larger now than they were back then. For instance, the lightweight F/A-18E Super Hornet is about 30,000lbs empty and 60 feet long. The old F6F Hellcat is 42 feet long and weighs under 10,000lbs. In conclusion, Valkryie, even smaller, could be much more powerful than the older Galactica. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)
:::But considering the timeframe, they aren't using radically different weapons and planes. Probably standard Mk VII Vipers or maybe MkVIs or whatever.
:::I think it's sort of like the escort carriers of WWII. Not usually meant to operate alone, but to give support to larger carriers, protect ships and support planetary operations. A support ship in Battlestar Groups that have a fullsized battlestar as main ship --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:24, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::::That reminds me of a point I forgot, the Mk II and Mk VII are of similar sizes, they can be launched from the same tubes and stored in the same parking spots on the hanger deck. I'm thinking the Valkyrie is like the USS Wasp which was a miniture Yorktown, a small light carrier that can operate with the fleet carriers. The only difference is that the Valkryie would be more advanced than Galactica, instead of old and ineffective like the Wasp. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:38, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::I find myself nodding in gleeful agreement to [[User:Talos|Talos]] and [[User:Serenity|Serenity's]] comments, but I must reply to [[User:Grin Reaper|Grin Reaper's]] first — you're using the "bigger is better" mentality, and this is one of the two issues that burns at the heart of the fight amongst Star Wars fans on the topic of warships (and classification thereof, but I'll mention that later). Bigger ''is not'' better. Better is better. Different is better. Just because ''Valkyrie'' is smaller (hypothetically speaking for the sake of example) doesn't mean she carries smaller weapons. From the recollection scenes alone, we can see that she has weaponry different, and in different locations, than ''Galactica''. The elder battlestar lumps her primary "turrets" dorsalside and ventralside, and has her "flak-guns" lining the midline and flight pods. ''Valkyrie'', by contrast, had turrets on the pods themselves, akin to ''Pegasus''. I don't want to chase specifics, but focus on the point that differences are ''good'' — they're human; they're to be expected; they're in realistic keeping.
::It could be said that, perhaps, ''Valkyrie'' was as Talos and Serenity say, a lighter, more purposeful version of a battlestar for an accompaniment or specialized role. Less mass would mean that she'd require less engines in her array, and perhaps have greater velocities/accelerations. She'd require less crew. While still operating the same craft as any other battlestar, she ''might'' have less of them. Who knows? The point is, she's different, but ''still a battlestar''.
::I bring in two examples from history: the case of the HMS ''Hood'' (ca. 1940) and the battleships of the US Navy during WWII. In ''Hood's'' story, she was, when WWII rolled around, the largest, longest warship in the British Navy, and was 262m long at 48,000 tonnes full load. By contrast, the ''Queen Elizabeth''-class battleships were 197m at 33,000 tonnes. Both ships carried the same 15-in gun. Then, we throw in another WWII-era battleship, the ''King George V''-class, which was 227m at 42,000 tonnes — but sported 14-in guns because the Admiralty, at the time, felt that a more quantitive broadside (10 over 8 or 9) would be more effective than the larger 15-in guns. I'm not going to get into a running argument over details, but bring this up to point out that all three were battleships (''Hood'' was termed a ''battlecruiser'', but the point stands), built by the ''same country'' in roughly a short period of time (within approximately 30 years), and all were used under similar circumstances, to varying success and failure. Similarly, the United States had their "holdover" dreadnaught-style battleships at the opening of WWII, but then churned out the ''New Mexico''-class, the ''South Dakota''-class, ''North Carolina''-class, and ''Iowa''-class. Each was indeed a battleship, but definitely different in terms of size, traits, and capabilities.
::Yes, I may be getting a bit long-winded for such a trivial subject, but I can't express enough how ''different'' this great series is from Star Trek and Star Wars. Until proven otherwise, there aren't any carriers, battleships, cruisers, frigates, destroyers, corvettes, torpedo boats, etc. — there are ''battlestars'', and a battlestar is a battlestar is a battlestar, albeit in different shapes, forms, and sizes. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:26, 18 November 2006 (CST)
:::I'm thinking that it's just a smaller battlestar, fulfilling a similar role as the Mercuries and such on smaller displacement. Many realword navies are always attempting to do this. For example, before the Burke was finalized, various lightweight versions, sacrificing engines or Aegis, or other equipment, were designed. All of them tried to mimize displacement.The Treaty-era ships from the 1920-30's aren't the best examples to use here because they had an artificial limit imposed on them by the Washington and London Naval Treaties. Frequently, improved technology requires lesser manpower. The reason ships keep getting bigger historically is that they keep adding new technology, for instance, the cause of the massive destroyer size increase after WWII is mostly due to the inclusion of Weapon Alfa, guided missiles, and a huge increase in carried electronics. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 12:27, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::::OK, let's not make too big a deal about the size. Here's a comparison of sizes of post-WWII aircraft carrier classess that I put together from wikipedia.org organized by when they were built:
CVL-48 Saipan class - 2 ships
14,500 tons

CVA-58 United States class - 1 ship
83,350 tons full, 68,000 tons standard

CV-59 Forrestal class - 4 ships
56,300 tons

CV-63 Kitty Hawk class - 3 ships
60,000 tons, 82,200 tons full load

CVN-65 Enterprise class - 1 ship
approx. 93,500 tons full load

CV-67 John F. Kennedy class - 1 ship
60728 tons light, 82655 tons full

CVN-68 Nimitz class - 9 ships
101,000 to 104,000 tons full load

CVN-78 21st Century Aircraft Carrier Project
100,000 tons

If we equate Galactica, an older ship, to the USS United States and the Valkyrie to Forrestal Class and Pegasus to a Nimitz class, then Galactica would be clearly larger than the Valkyrie and Pegasus would clearly be much larger than both. In the US Navy today, all these carriers have the exact same function, but vary in size by design and time. However, they are all aircraft carriers. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:29, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:::[[User:Hawke|Hawke]], I don't understand where you're coming from. I never said ''Valkyrie'' wasn't a battlestar. I said that if it's smaller than ''Galactica'', then it cannot be as capable. It cannot carry the same amount of fighters because its flight pods are smaller. Its guns cannot be as large, and we know thanks to ''Pegasus'' that guns like the ones ''Galactica'' carries are still effective weapons. It will not be able to absorb as much damage due to its smaller size. I'm honestly not sure what most of your post has to do with any of that.--[[User:Grin Reaper|Grin Reaper]] 08:26, 19 November 2006 (CST)

I think its also worth remembering that Galactica is 60 years old, and one of the first 12 Battlestars. Therefore Valkyrie must be a newer ship, which is suggested by some of its more Pegasusish design nods. Therefore yes it can quite easily be more powerful than Galactica, simply by having more modern technology. Yes Galactica will of been refitted and such and such, but refitting can only get you so far. If Galactica was able to hold its own next to newer ships it wouldn't of been about to be decommissioned when the series started. The fact is we don't know when Pegasus and Valkeryie were built, except that both most of been built post-Galactica's. That's probably also why Galactica is looked upon so harshly by Tigh. Galactica may of been in the fleet as an old relic. An old rust bucket that should of been decommissioned years ago. --[[User:CTerry|CTerry]] 18:05, 18 November 2006 (CST)

My thought are that we could gage the scale of the Valkyrie to the Galactica and Pegasus by looking at the flightpods. The width of the "mouth" should be the same as they all support and operate the vehicles - Vipers, Raptors and shuttles. Oh and the Shadow Star, can't forget that new one. The "banner" on the deck of each flightpod could be the same dimensions for landing purposes. As for the guns, I saw the one in the "eye" of the Valkyrie, one behind it on the "body" and three on the flightpod like that of the Pegasus. Most seemed to have only one cannon, while the that's in the "eye" appeared, in the firing sequence, to have two cannon. Cannon that fired a powered missle. The Galactica and Pegasus appeared, to me, to have the same type of main gun. The placement was not the same though. I'v been also thinking of the Galactica as being like a World War 2 carrier, since it had "AA guns" but uprated for modern operation. The Pegasus was a product of more modern times and doesn't appear to have any "AA guns". Due to the guns on the Valkyrie, I'd guess that it was perhaps the most modern design. Those main guns could be a newer design then those on Pegasus, unless they are a new "caliber". In the long run, I have to agree that it appears to be smaller and serve a slightly different purpose in the BSG, maybe a battlescruiser type to the battleship type that Galactica and Pegasus play. I can't but also say that perhaps, these ships could be treated as ships-of-the-line as in the age of sail. Interesting design, pity we'll never get to see more of it, unless Zoic is kind and releases some orthos of it. Or maybe some book comes out with orthos of all the Colonial ships and craft.
[[User:Cat-Scratched-Victim|Cat-Scratched-Victim]] 22:08, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:I found some screencaps and came up with these numbers (assuming symmetry, which I thought reasonable, given other Colonial designs):
::1 x heavy gun turret in an alcove on either side of the head
::1 x Heavy gun turret in an alcove on either side of the main body, above the flight pods.
::3 x more alcoves on either side of the main body that may or may not contain heavy gun turrets; There weren't any shots close enough for me to be certain.
::1 x heavy gun turret on either side of the dorsal crest.
::2 x possible heavy gun turrets aft of the dorsal crest. The image was from too far awawy to be sure, but they look quite similar to the ones astride the crest.
::2 x heavy gun turrets on the dorsal surface of the flight-pods, one foreward and one aft.
::3 x light gun turrets in alcoves on the side of each flight-pod. There were only three in-frame in the picture I saw them in, but it also only covered the foreward part of the flight pod, so there could be more.
:Having no images of the ship's underside, there's no way to tell what armament she has there.
:As far as I could tell, all the heavy gun turrets had two barrels. The lighter gun turrets are harder to make out, but they appear to be twin-barreled emplacements as well. They are definately smaller than the heavy turrets, though.
:As for the armaments of ''Pegasus'' and ''Galactica'', the heavy turrets on both are indeed extremely similar in appearance. ''Both'' possess extensive flak suites of lighter, rapid-fire guns. Although I've been unable to visually identify any of the emplacements on ''Pegasus'', I've certainly seen them firing.
:The way I see it, ''Valkyrie'' is a much smaller design, fitted with commensurately smaller weaponry, meant to support the heavier ships in a BSG like the ''Mercury''-class. More of a cruiser to their battleship, than a battlecruiser.--[[User:Grin Reaper|Grin Reaper]] 08:26, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:I kinda thought Valkyrie was a smaller battlestar, much like the Independence class light carriers of World War II or the support carriers (CVS) that the WW II era Essex class ships became. Essentially these ships were designed to undertake missions that didn't warrant the use of a big carrier. The CVL Independence, for example, was one of the first carriers deployed for night operations. Essex and her sisters were used for antisubmarine and amphibious operations. If Valkyrie were a ship of this type it would make more sense for her to be assigned a black op, since arguably she would be a somewhat less threatening presence than a full sized battlestar, and she would also be more expendable if something went wrong. I propose the term "Light Battlestar" to describe this ship. :) [[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 20:44, 20 November 2006 (CST)

:I think ''Valkyrie'' is an intermediate design somewhere between ''Galactica'' and ''Pegasus''. As far as size goes, I think its comparable in dimensions to ''Galactica'', and therefore slightly smaller than ''Pegasus''. If you use the width and length of the flight pods as a scale, then ''Valkyrie'' is very similar to the other battlestars we've seen. The perception of small size I think is due to the narrower engine pods and propulsion section in the rear. ''Galactica'' has the addtional four engines from a refit that make her rear end wider, and ''Pegasus'' had more engines to begin with. The width of the bow and the overall length of the ship is about the same for all three. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 02:41, 23 November 2006 (CST)

== Number / Designation? ==
Am I seeing this right? From the capture, it looks like '''BSG 41''' on the seal. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Miniseries appearance? ==
[[Image:Miniseries Mystery Ship.jpg|thumb|left|Mystery ship? ([[Miniseries]])]]
I was watching the miniseries the other day and early in I could swear that the Valkyrie or a battlestar of the same make shows up. It's the same shot through the Caprica City doctor's window that shows the Firefly and Olympic Carrier-type ship. Is it just me or does anyone else see it? [[User:Motherfraker|Motherfraker]] 16:23, 22 November 2006 (CST)
:I just found a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aUZSKHhRXs clip on youtube] showing Serenity fly past and you can clearly see the mystery ship. Its certainly very large and looks like it may have 6 engines but I dont think its a battlestar. The middle section isnt big enough and the nose section is too pointy. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 17:01, 22 November 2006 (CST)
:I've noticed this ship before, and always presumed it was a [[Memoryalpha:Hirogen Warship]](not in BSG canon, obviously) from Star Trek. There are several instances of CG starship models from Star Trek appearing in Firefly as background ships, and as we know Serenity herself is seen in this scene, so it's possible that this vessel was put in as an "extra" to fill up space on the screen. I don't see any resemblance to the Valkyrie, but I could believe that this was a Colonial military craft of some sort.
Here's a picture of the Hirogen ship for reference: www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/hirogen-venatic-cgi.jpg --[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 18:57, 22 November 2006 (CST)
[[Image:MysteryShip.jpg|thumb|left|Mystery Ship ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]])]]
I'm pretty sure that's not the Valkyrie, I think it's just a background ship because it appeared again at the end of [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] during the fleet's emergency jump as seen in the screenshot provided here. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 20:54, 22 November 2006 (CST)
:Its a pretty cool looking ship though. It looks quote powerful, definitly fast with 5 engines. We have a page about most of the ships on the wiki, could we garner enough information about this to make a page. Its quite possible it has made appearances in other episodes too and could even have an official name as there are many ships in the "mentioned only" category. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 03:23, 23 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Valkyrie/Archive 1

2006-11-23T09:41:28Z

Maserati1945: /* Class / Type / Dimensions */

Before anyone asks, here is the source: http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000pbh0a/g261 
See the seal in the background --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:59, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:Good Job Serenity!--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:38, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::I didn't create the article though :p --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:42, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::Yeah, but you spotted the name on the seal. Well, whoever spotted it first, good job!--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:44, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::Anyone else notice Tigh?--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:47, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::You mean the eye? This is probably flashback scene. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:50, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::With Admiral pips?[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])18:52, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::::The description below says "'''Commander''' William Adama", as opposed to the next photo. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:56, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::::The rank differences clearly IDs the photo spot as a flashback. Look at the pips on the collar! What are the left collar pips verses the rank pips on the right? (Right-Left relative to the wearer) This is especially noticable on the Admiral Corman shot. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:02, 31 October 2006 (CST)

It's most likely a flashback. Maybe Adama and Tigh served on the Valkyrie and that's where [[Bulldog]] was under Adama's command. I can't really make out the rank pins. They look a bigger than Commander's insignia, but the picture quality isn't that good --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:09, 31 October 2006 (CST)

Another question, in 8 of 9 shot on that webpage, I am guessing its a flashback scene because Lee is wearing Captain's pips, but he also has a Battlestar Galactica badge on his shoulder. I thought he wasn't assigned to the Galactica prior to the miniseries? Is that the implication here or a clothing manfunction? hehe...--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:26, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:I read something that he might be demoted back to Captain. Not sure about it, but it makes sense. I guess they could keep him as Major or even Colonel, but there isn't really a job opening for a Commander at the moment.
:But looking at it more closely that might even be Major. Major and Captain look very similar, with Major having three chevron, the top one of which is directly on the diamond's edge --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:28, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::The original [[Jackson Spencer|CAG]] of Galactica that we see was a Major. Also, in the Miniseries, Apollo didn't wear a unit patch at all on his shoulder when he got to Galactica, pehaps since he was in the Reserves. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:21, 3 November 2006 (EST)
::In "[[Torn]]", the name plate on Lee's viper reads "Maj. Lee Adama". So I don't think he will be demoted any time soon. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:54, 10 November 2006 (CST)
I've deleted this line "both William Adama and Saul Tigh served on the Valkyrie" this is not canon, also many rumors going around are that Adama was involved in a covert operations against the cylons so he might have simply gone to the Valkyrie to be issued orders or debriefed etc, point is, we don't know. --[[user:lordmutt|lordmutt]] 19:13, 10 November 2006 (EST)
:There is a two-minute video out there, that pretty much confirms that Adama and Tigh were sent to ''Valkyrie'' for a special mission. Something about using a stealth ship to make a reconnaissance flight into Cylon space. The ship was flown by Novacek who was then captured by the Cylons. I also like that this shoots down the silly theories that the Blackbird was the Colonial's first stealth ship. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:52, 10 November 2006 (CST)
:: Concur. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:55, 10 November 2006 (CST)

== Class / Type / Dimensions ==
Now, for the time being, does ''Valkyrie'' go down as a ''Valkyrie''-type Battlestar (until someone at the "Head Office" finally tells us details like this)? I '''''especially''''' like how ''Galactica'', ''Pegasus'', and now ''Valkyrie'' are all different styles and sizes, but yet are still classified as ''battlestars''. This shows a degree of realism, creativity, and dynamicism among our intrepid Powers That Be — they're not going to pull the weak, canned trick of reusing the same model over and over and over again, ad nauseum. Also, ''hopefully'', it stomps on ''any'' musings amongst certain overzealous fans of such genres as Star Wars and Star Trek who have this bad habit of immediately speculating and squabbling over if a ship is a battleship, destroyer, frigate, etc. In this case, it would seem that, regardless of size and/or layout, a battlestar is a battlestar is a battlestar. End of line.

On that note, it would appear that ''Valkyrie'' is infact smaller than ''Galactica'', perhaps with reduced capabilities (weapons and embarked Vipers and Raptors quantities, etc.), less crew. It would also appear that she has less engines in her differently shaped array, which would make sense for a smaller, less massive starship.

Lastly, and unrelated to ''Valkyrie'' directly, that stealth recon craft was ''badass'', wasn't it? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 23:49, 17 November 2006 (CST)

I'm not so sure that the Valkyrie is a less capable ship than the Galactica. From what Tigh said about Adama's "graceful retirement' it seems that the Valkyrie was actually a pretty prestigious command. I had always thought that commanding the Galactica was a great honor, but Tigh's words seem to indicate otherwise. Ships tend to get smaller as the technology progresses because of the reduced manpower requirement. Perhaps the smaller size of the Valkyrie is an indication of this. Theres no real numbers for the dimensions of the Valkyrie or anything to scale it to, but I also got the sense that it was smaller than the Pegasus or Galactica. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 02:16, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:I disagree with that. A smaller ship is going to have less physical space to carry fighter craft and supplies. If ''Valkyrie'' is smaller than ''Galactica'' and ''Pegasus'', then its gun batteries are smaller, which means they're firing lighter shells, which translates into less penetration, smaller warheads, less damage. A smaller ship has less volume to absorb damage with, meaning less staying power in a battle.
:That doesn't mean it can't still be a prestigious command, though. If it were a very new ship, even if it weren't the most powerful, it would still be a plum assignment.--[[User:Grin Reaper|Grin Reaper]] 07:08, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::That's not always completely true. For example, the modern Arleigh Burke (DDG-51) class destroyer is about 500 feet long. It's replaced the 560 foot long Spruance and Kidd class destroyers and is also much more powerful than the old Long Beach (721 fl) and other old cruisers. It's almost as powerful as the other current surface warship, the Ticonderoga class cruiser, built on a Spruance hull. The only reason our modern carriers are so much larger than the old WWII bird farms, is that the planes are much larger now than they were back then. For instance, the lightweight F/A-18E Super Hornet is about 30,000lbs empty and 60 feet long. The old F6F Hellcat is 42 feet long and weighs under 10,000lbs. In conclusion, Valkryie, even smaller, could be much more powerful than the older Galactica. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)
:::But considering the timeframe, they aren't using radically different weapons and planes. Probably standard Mk VII Vipers or maybe MkVIs or whatever.
:::I think it's sort of like the escort carriers of WWII. Not usually meant to operate alone, but to give support to larger carriers, protect ships and support planetary operations. A support ship in Battlestar Groups that have a fullsized battlestar as main ship --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:24, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::::That reminds me of a point I forgot, the Mk II and Mk VII are of similar sizes, they can be launched from the same tubes and stored in the same parking spots on the hanger deck. I'm thinking the Valkyrie is like the USS Wasp which was a miniture Yorktown, a small light carrier that can operate with the fleet carriers. The only difference is that the Valkryie would be more advanced than Galactica, instead of old and ineffective like the Wasp. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:38, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::I find myself nodding in gleeful agreement to [[User:Talos|Talos]] and [[User:Serenity|Serenity's]] comments, but I must reply to [[User:Grin Reaper|Grin Reaper's]] first — you're using the "bigger is better" mentality, and this is one of the two issues that burns at the heart of the fight amongst Star Wars fans on the topic of warships (and classification thereof, but I'll mention that later). Bigger ''is not'' better. Better is better. Different is better. Just because ''Valkyrie'' is smaller (hypothetically speaking for the sake of example) doesn't mean she carries smaller weapons. From the recollection scenes alone, we can see that she has weaponry different, and in different locations, than ''Galactica''. The elder battlestar lumps her primary "turrets" dorsalside and ventralside, and has her "flak-guns" lining the midline and flight pods. ''Valkyrie'', by contrast, had turrets on the pods themselves, akin to ''Pegasus''. I don't want to chase specifics, but focus on the point that differences are ''good'' — they're human; they're to be expected; they're in realistic keeping.
::It could be said that, perhaps, ''Valkyrie'' was as Talos and Serenity say, a lighter, more purposeful version of a battlestar for an accompaniment or specialized role. Less mass would mean that she'd require less engines in her array, and perhaps have greater velocities/accelerations. She'd require less crew. While still operating the same craft as any other battlestar, she ''might'' have less of them. Who knows? The point is, she's different, but ''still a battlestar''.
::I bring in two examples from history: the case of the HMS ''Hood'' (ca. 1940) and the battleships of the US Navy during WWII. In ''Hood's'' story, she was, when WWII rolled around, the largest, longest warship in the British Navy, and was 262m long at 48,000 tonnes full load. By contrast, the ''Queen Elizabeth''-class battleships were 197m at 33,000 tonnes. Both ships carried the same 15-in gun. Then, we throw in another WWII-era battleship, the ''King George V''-class, which was 227m at 42,000 tonnes — but sported 14-in guns because the Admiralty, at the time, felt that a more quantitive broadside (10 over 8 or 9) would be more effective than the larger 15-in guns. I'm not going to get into a running argument over details, but bring this up to point out that all three were battleships (''Hood'' was termed a ''battlecruiser'', but the point stands), built by the ''same country'' in roughly a short period of time (within approximately 30 years), and all were used under similar circumstances, to varying success and failure. Similarly, the United States had their "holdover" dreadnaught-style battleships at the opening of WWII, but then churned out the ''New Mexico''-class, the ''South Dakota''-class, ''North Carolina''-class, and ''Iowa''-class. Each was indeed a battleship, but definitely different in terms of size, traits, and capabilities.
::Yes, I may be getting a bit long-winded for such a trivial subject, but I can't express enough how ''different'' this great series is from Star Trek and Star Wars. Until proven otherwise, there aren't any carriers, battleships, cruisers, frigates, destroyers, corvettes, torpedo boats, etc. — there are ''battlestars'', and a battlestar is a battlestar is a battlestar, albeit in different shapes, forms, and sizes. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:26, 18 November 2006 (CST)
:::I'm thinking that it's just a smaller battlestar, fulfilling a similar role as the Mercuries and such on smaller displacement. Many realword navies are always attempting to do this. For example, before the Burke was finalized, various lightweight versions, sacrificing engines or Aegis, or other equipment, were designed. All of them tried to mimize displacement.The Treaty-era ships from the 1920-30's aren't the best examples to use here because they had an artificial limit imposed on them by the Washington and London Naval Treaties. Frequently, improved technology requires lesser manpower. The reason ships keep getting bigger historically is that they keep adding new technology, for instance, the cause of the massive destroyer size increase after WWII is mostly due to the inclusion of Weapon Alfa, guided missiles, and a huge increase in carried electronics. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 12:27, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::::OK, let's not make too big a deal about the size. Here's a comparison of sizes of post-WWII aircraft carrier classess that I put together from wikipedia.org organized by when they were built:
CVL-48 Saipan class - 2 ships
14,500 tons

CVA-58 United States class - 1 ship
83,350 tons full, 68,000 tons standard

CV-59 Forrestal class - 4 ships
56,300 tons

CV-63 Kitty Hawk class - 3 ships
60,000 tons, 82,200 tons full load

CVN-65 Enterprise class - 1 ship
approx. 93,500 tons full load

CV-67 John F. Kennedy class - 1 ship
60728 tons light, 82655 tons full

CVN-68 Nimitz class - 9 ships
101,000 to 104,000 tons full load

CVN-78 21st Century Aircraft Carrier Project
100,000 tons

If we equate Galactica, an older ship, to the USS United States and the Valkyrie to Forrestal Class and Pegasus to a Nimitz class, then Galactica would be clearly larger than the Valkyrie and Pegasus would clearly be much larger than both. In the US Navy today, all these carriers have the exact same function, but vary in size by design and time. However, they are all aircraft carriers. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:29, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:::[[User:Hawke|Hawke]], I don't understand where you're coming from. I never said ''Valkyrie'' wasn't a battlestar. I said that if it's smaller than ''Galactica'', then it cannot be as capable. It cannot carry the same amount of fighters because its flight pods are smaller. Its guns cannot be as large, and we know thanks to ''Pegasus'' that guns like the ones ''Galactica'' carries are still effective weapons. It will not be able to absorb as much damage due to its smaller size. I'm honestly not sure what most of your post has to do with any of that.--[[User:Grin Reaper|Grin Reaper]] 08:26, 19 November 2006 (CST)

I think its also worth remembering that Galactica is 60 years old, and one of the first 12 Battlestars. Therefore Valkyrie must be a newer ship, which is suggested by some of its more Pegasusish design nods. Therefore yes it can quite easily be more powerful than Galactica, simply by having more modern technology. Yes Galactica will of been refitted and such and such, but refitting can only get you so far. If Galactica was able to hold its own next to newer ships it wouldn't of been about to be decommissioned when the series started. The fact is we don't know when Pegasus and Valkeryie were built, except that both most of been built post-Galactica's. That's probably also why Galactica is looked upon so harshly by Tigh. Galactica may of been in the fleet as an old relic. An old rust bucket that should of been decommissioned years ago. --[[User:CTerry|CTerry]] 18:05, 18 November 2006 (CST)

My thought are that we could gage the scale of the Valkyrie to the Galactica and Pegasus by looking at the flightpods. The width of the "mouth" should be the same as they all support and operate the vehicles - Vipers, Raptors and shuttles. Oh and the Shadow Star, can't forget that new one. The "banner" on the deck of each flightpod could be the same dimensions for landing purposes. As for the guns, I saw the one in the "eye" of the Valkyrie, one behind it on the "body" and three on the flightpod like that of the Pegasus. Most seemed to have only one cannon, while the that's in the "eye" appeared, in the firing sequence, to have two cannon. Cannon that fired a powered missle. The Galactica and Pegasus appeared, to me, to have the same type of main gun. The placement was not the same though. I'v been also thinking of the Galactica as being like a World War 2 carrier, since it had "AA guns" but uprated for modern operation. The Pegasus was a product of more modern times and doesn't appear to have any "AA guns". Due to the guns on the Valkyrie, I'd guess that it was perhaps the most modern design. Those main guns could be a newer design then those on Pegasus, unless they are a new "caliber". In the long run, I have to agree that it appears to be smaller and serve a slightly different purpose in the BSG, maybe a battlescruiser type to the battleship type that Galactica and Pegasus play. I can't but also say that perhaps, these ships could be treated as ships-of-the-line as in the age of sail. Interesting design, pity we'll never get to see more of it, unless Zoic is kind and releases some orthos of it. Or maybe some book comes out with orthos of all the Colonial ships and craft.
[[User:Cat-Scratched-Victim|Cat-Scratched-Victim]] 22:08, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:I found some screencaps and came up with these numbers (assuming symmetry, which I thought reasonable, given other Colonial designs):
::1 x heavy gun turret in an alcove on either side of the head
::1 x Heavy gun turret in an alcove on either side of the main body, above the flight pods.
::3 x more alcoves on either side of the main body that may or may not contain heavy gun turrets; There weren't any shots close enough for me to be certain.
::1 x heavy gun turret on either side of the dorsal crest.
::2 x possible heavy gun turrets aft of the dorsal crest. The image was from too far awawy to be sure, but they look quite similar to the ones astride the crest.
::2 x heavy gun turrets on the dorsal surface of the flight-pods, one foreward and one aft.
::3 x light gun turrets in alcoves on the side of each flight-pod. There were only three in-frame in the picture I saw them in, but it also only covered the foreward part of the flight pod, so there could be more.
:Having no images of the ship's underside, there's no way to tell what armament she has there.
:As far as I could tell, all the heavy gun turrets had two barrels. The lighter gun turrets are harder to make out, but they appear to be twin-barreled emplacements as well. They are definately smaller than the heavy turrets, though.
:As for the armaments of ''Pegasus'' and ''Galactica'', the heavy turrets on both are indeed extremely similar in appearance. ''Both'' possess extensive flak suites of lighter, rapid-fire guns. Although I've been unable to visually identify any of the emplacements on ''Pegasus'', I've certainly seen them firing.
:The way I see it, ''Valkyrie'' is a much smaller design, fitted with commensurately smaller weaponry, meant to support the heavier ships in a BSG like the ''Mercury''-class. More of a cruiser to their battleship, than a battlecruiser.--[[User:Grin Reaper|Grin Reaper]] 08:26, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:I kinda thought Valkyrie was a smaller battlestar, much like the Independence class light carriers of World War II or the support carriers (CVS) that the WW II era Essex class ships became. Essentially these ships were designed to undertake missions that didn't warrant the use of a big carrier. The CVL Independence, for example, was one of the first carriers deployed for night operations. Essex and her sisters were used for antisubmarine and amphibious operations. If Valkyrie were a ship of this type it would make more sense for her to be assigned a black op, since arguably she would be a somewhat less threatening presence than a full sized battlestar, and she would also be more expendable if something went wrong. I propose the term "Light Battlestar" to describe this ship. :) [[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 20:44, 20 November 2006 (CST)

:I think Valkyrie is an intermediate design somewhere between Galactica and Pegasus. As far as size goes, I think its comparable in dimensions to Galactica, and therefore slightly smaller than Pegasus. If you use the width and length of the flight pods as a scale, then Valkyrie is very similar to the other battlestars we've seen. The perception of small size I think is due to the narrower engine pods and propulsion section in the rear. Galactica has the addtional four engines from a refit that make her rear end wider, and Pegasus had more engines to begin with. The width of the bow and the overall length of the ship is about the same for all three. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 02:41, 23 November 2006 (CST)

== Number / Designation? ==
Am I seeing this right? From the capture, it looks like '''BSG 41''' on the seal. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Miniseries appearance? ==
[[Image:Miniseries Mystery Ship.jpg|thumb|left|Mystery ship? ([[Miniseries]])]]
I was watching the miniseries the other day and early in I could swear that the Valkyrie or a battlestar of the same make shows up. It's the same shot through the Caprica City doctor's window that shows the Firefly and Olympic Carrier-type ship. Is it just me or does anyone else see it? [[User:Motherfraker|Motherfraker]] 16:23, 22 November 2006 (CST)
:I just found a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aUZSKHhRXs clip on youtube] showing Serenity fly past and you can clearly see the mystery ship. Its certainly very large and looks like it may have 6 engines but I dont think its a battlestar. The middle section isnt big enough and the nose section is too pointy. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 17:01, 22 November 2006 (CST)
:I've noticed this ship before, and always presumed it was a [[Memoryalpha:Hirogen Warship]](not in BSG canon, obviously) from Star Trek. There are several instances of CG starship models from Star Trek appearing in Firefly as background ships, and as we know Serenity herself is seen in this scene, so it's possible that this vessel was put in as an "extra" to fill up space on the screen. I don't see any resemblance to the Valkyrie, but I could believe that this was a Colonial military craft of some sort.
Here's a picture of the Hirogen ship for reference: www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/hirogen-venatic-cgi.jpg --[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 18:57, 22 November 2006 (CST)
[[Image:MysteryShip.jpg|thumb|left|Mystery Ship ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]])]]
I'm pretty sure that's not the Valkyrie, I think it's just a background ship because it appeared again at the end of [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] during the fleet's emergency jump as seen in the screenshot provided here. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 20:54, 22 November 2006 (CST)
:Its a pretty cool looking ship though. It looks quote powerful, definitly fast with 5 engines. We have a page about most of the ships on the wiki, could we garner enough information about this to make a page. Its quite possible it has made appearances in other episodes too and could even have an official name as there are many ships in the "mentioned only" category. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 03:23, 23 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Valkyrie/Archive 1

2006-11-23T09:39:21Z

Maserati1945: /* Class / Type / Dimensions */ Valkyrie not that small

Before anyone asks, here is the source: http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000pbh0a/g261 
See the seal in the background --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:59, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:Good Job Serenity!--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:38, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::I didn't create the article though :p --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:42, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::Yeah, but you spotted the name on the seal. Well, whoever spotted it first, good job!--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:44, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::Anyone else notice Tigh?--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:47, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::You mean the eye? This is probably flashback scene. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:50, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::With Admiral pips?[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])18:52, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::::The description below says "'''Commander''' William Adama", as opposed to the next photo. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:56, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::::The rank differences clearly IDs the photo spot as a flashback. Look at the pips on the collar! What are the left collar pips verses the rank pips on the right? (Right-Left relative to the wearer) This is especially noticable on the Admiral Corman shot. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:02, 31 October 2006 (CST)

It's most likely a flashback. Maybe Adama and Tigh served on the Valkyrie and that's where [[Bulldog]] was under Adama's command. I can't really make out the rank pins. They look a bigger than Commander's insignia, but the picture quality isn't that good --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:09, 31 October 2006 (CST)

Another question, in 8 of 9 shot on that webpage, I am guessing its a flashback scene because Lee is wearing Captain's pips, but he also has a Battlestar Galactica badge on his shoulder. I thought he wasn't assigned to the Galactica prior to the miniseries? Is that the implication here or a clothing manfunction? hehe...--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:26, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:I read something that he might be demoted back to Captain. Not sure about it, but it makes sense. I guess they could keep him as Major or even Colonel, but there isn't really a job opening for a Commander at the moment.
:But looking at it more closely that might even be Major. Major and Captain look very similar, with Major having three chevron, the top one of which is directly on the diamond's edge --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:28, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::The original [[Jackson Spencer|CAG]] of Galactica that we see was a Major. Also, in the Miniseries, Apollo didn't wear a unit patch at all on his shoulder when he got to Galactica, pehaps since he was in the Reserves. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:21, 3 November 2006 (EST)
::In "[[Torn]]", the name plate on Lee's viper reads "Maj. Lee Adama". So I don't think he will be demoted any time soon. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:54, 10 November 2006 (CST)
I've deleted this line "both William Adama and Saul Tigh served on the Valkyrie" this is not canon, also many rumors going around are that Adama was involved in a covert operations against the cylons so he might have simply gone to the Valkyrie to be issued orders or debriefed etc, point is, we don't know. --[[user:lordmutt|lordmutt]] 19:13, 10 November 2006 (EST)
:There is a two-minute video out there, that pretty much confirms that Adama and Tigh were sent to ''Valkyrie'' for a special mission. Something about using a stealth ship to make a reconnaissance flight into Cylon space. The ship was flown by Novacek who was then captured by the Cylons. I also like that this shoots down the silly theories that the Blackbird was the Colonial's first stealth ship. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:52, 10 November 2006 (CST)
:: Concur. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:55, 10 November 2006 (CST)

== Class / Type / Dimensions ==
Now, for the time being, does ''Valkyrie'' go down as a ''Valkyrie''-type Battlestar (until someone at the "Head Office" finally tells us details like this)? I '''''especially''''' like how ''Galactica'', ''Pegasus'', and now ''Valkyrie'' are all different styles and sizes, but yet are still classified as ''battlestars''. This shows a degree of realism, creativity, and dynamicism among our intrepid Powers That Be — they're not going to pull the weak, canned trick of reusing the same model over and over and over again, ad nauseum. Also, ''hopefully'', it stomps on ''any'' musings amongst certain overzealous fans of such genres as Star Wars and Star Trek who have this bad habit of immediately speculating and squabbling over if a ship is a battleship, destroyer, frigate, etc. In this case, it would seem that, regardless of size and/or layout, a battlestar is a battlestar is a battlestar. End of line.

On that note, it would appear that ''Valkyrie'' is infact smaller than ''Galactica'', perhaps with reduced capabilities (weapons and embarked Vipers and Raptors quantities, etc.), less crew. It would also appear that she has less engines in her differently shaped array, which would make sense for a smaller, less massive starship.

Lastly, and unrelated to ''Valkyrie'' directly, that stealth recon craft was ''badass'', wasn't it? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 23:49, 17 November 2006 (CST)

I'm not so sure that the Valkyrie is a less capable ship than the Galactica. From what Tigh said about Adama's "graceful retirement' it seems that the Valkyrie was actually a pretty prestigious command. I had always thought that commanding the Galactica was a great honor, but Tigh's words seem to indicate otherwise. Ships tend to get smaller as the technology progresses because of the reduced manpower requirement. Perhaps the smaller size of the Valkyrie is an indication of this. Theres no real numbers for the dimensions of the Valkyrie or anything to scale it to, but I also got the sense that it was smaller than the Pegasus or Galactica. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 02:16, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:I disagree with that. A smaller ship is going to have less physical space to carry fighter craft and supplies. If ''Valkyrie'' is smaller than ''Galactica'' and ''Pegasus'', then its gun batteries are smaller, which means they're firing lighter shells, which translates into less penetration, smaller warheads, less damage. A smaller ship has less volume to absorb damage with, meaning less staying power in a battle.
:That doesn't mean it can't still be a prestigious command, though. If it were a very new ship, even if it weren't the most powerful, it would still be a plum assignment.--[[User:Grin Reaper|Grin Reaper]] 07:08, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::That's not always completely true. For example, the modern Arleigh Burke (DDG-51) class destroyer is about 500 feet long. It's replaced the 560 foot long Spruance and Kidd class destroyers and is also much more powerful than the old Long Beach (721 fl) and other old cruisers. It's almost as powerful as the other current surface warship, the Ticonderoga class cruiser, built on a Spruance hull. The only reason our modern carriers are so much larger than the old WWII bird farms, is that the planes are much larger now than they were back then. For instance, the lightweight F/A-18E Super Hornet is about 30,000lbs empty and 60 feet long. The old F6F Hellcat is 42 feet long and weighs under 10,000lbs. In conclusion, Valkryie, even smaller, could be much more powerful than the older Galactica. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)
:::But considering the timeframe, they aren't using radically different weapons and planes. Probably standard Mk VII Vipers or maybe MkVIs or whatever.
:::I think it's sort of like the escort carriers of WWII. Not usually meant to operate alone, but to give support to larger carriers, protect ships and support planetary operations. A support ship in Battlestar Groups that have a fullsized battlestar as main ship --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:24, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::::That reminds me of a point I forgot, the Mk II and Mk VII are of similar sizes, they can be launched from the same tubes and stored in the same parking spots on the hanger deck. I'm thinking the Valkyrie is like the USS Wasp which was a miniture Yorktown, a small light carrier that can operate with the fleet carriers. The only difference is that the Valkryie would be more advanced than Galactica, instead of old and ineffective like the Wasp. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:38, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::I find myself nodding in gleeful agreement to [[User:Talos|Talos]] and [[User:Serenity|Serenity's]] comments, but I must reply to [[User:Grin Reaper|Grin Reaper's]] first — you're using the "bigger is better" mentality, and this is one of the two issues that burns at the heart of the fight amongst Star Wars fans on the topic of warships (and classification thereof, but I'll mention that later). Bigger ''is not'' better. Better is better. Different is better. Just because ''Valkyrie'' is smaller (hypothetically speaking for the sake of example) doesn't mean she carries smaller weapons. From the recollection scenes alone, we can see that she has weaponry different, and in different locations, than ''Galactica''. The elder battlestar lumps her primary "turrets" dorsalside and ventralside, and has her "flak-guns" lining the midline and flight pods. ''Valkyrie'', by contrast, had turrets on the pods themselves, akin to ''Pegasus''. I don't want to chase specifics, but focus on the point that differences are ''good'' — they're human; they're to be expected; they're in realistic keeping.
::It could be said that, perhaps, ''Valkyrie'' was as Talos and Serenity say, a lighter, more purposeful version of a battlestar for an accompaniment or specialized role. Less mass would mean that she'd require less engines in her array, and perhaps have greater velocities/accelerations. She'd require less crew. While still operating the same craft as any other battlestar, she ''might'' have less of them. Who knows? The point is, she's different, but ''still a battlestar''.
::I bring in two examples from history: the case of the HMS ''Hood'' (ca. 1940) and the battleships of the US Navy during WWII. In ''Hood's'' story, she was, when WWII rolled around, the largest, longest warship in the British Navy, and was 262m long at 48,000 tonnes full load. By contrast, the ''Queen Elizabeth''-class battleships were 197m at 33,000 tonnes. Both ships carried the same 15-in gun. Then, we throw in another WWII-era battleship, the ''King George V''-class, which was 227m at 42,000 tonnes — but sported 14-in guns because the Admiralty, at the time, felt that a more quantitive broadside (10 over 8 or 9) would be more effective than the larger 15-in guns. I'm not going to get into a running argument over details, but bring this up to point out that all three were battleships (''Hood'' was termed a ''battlecruiser'', but the point stands), built by the ''same country'' in roughly a short period of time (within approximately 30 years), and all were used under similar circumstances, to varying success and failure. Similarly, the United States had their "holdover" dreadnaught-style battleships at the opening of WWII, but then churned out the ''New Mexico''-class, the ''South Dakota''-class, ''North Carolina''-class, and ''Iowa''-class. Each was indeed a battleship, but definitely different in terms of size, traits, and capabilities.
::Yes, I may be getting a bit long-winded for such a trivial subject, but I can't express enough how ''different'' this great series is from Star Trek and Star Wars. Until proven otherwise, there aren't any carriers, battleships, cruisers, frigates, destroyers, corvettes, torpedo boats, etc. — there are ''battlestars'', and a battlestar is a battlestar is a battlestar, albeit in different shapes, forms, and sizes. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:26, 18 November 2006 (CST)
:::I'm thinking that it's just a smaller battlestar, fulfilling a similar role as the Mercuries and such on smaller displacement. Many realword navies are always attempting to do this. For example, before the Burke was finalized, various lightweight versions, sacrificing engines or Aegis, or other equipment, were designed. All of them tried to mimize displacement.The Treaty-era ships from the 1920-30's aren't the best examples to use here because they had an artificial limit imposed on them by the Washington and London Naval Treaties. Frequently, improved technology requires lesser manpower. The reason ships keep getting bigger historically is that they keep adding new technology, for instance, the cause of the massive destroyer size increase after WWII is mostly due to the inclusion of Weapon Alfa, guided missiles, and a huge increase in carried electronics. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 12:27, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::::OK, let's not make too big a deal about the size. Here's a comparison of sizes of post-WWII aircraft carrier classess that I put together from wikipedia.org organized by when they were built:
CVL-48 Saipan class - 2 ships
14,500 tons

CVA-58 United States class - 1 ship
83,350 tons full, 68,000 tons standard

CV-59 Forrestal class - 4 ships
56,300 tons

CV-63 Kitty Hawk class - 3 ships
60,000 tons, 82,200 tons full load

CVN-65 Enterprise class - 1 ship
approx. 93,500 tons full load

CV-67 John F. Kennedy class - 1 ship
60728 tons light, 82655 tons full

CVN-68 Nimitz class - 9 ships
101,000 to 104,000 tons full load

CVN-78 21st Century Aircraft Carrier Project
100,000 tons

If we equate Galactica, an older ship, to the USS United States and the Valkyrie to Forrestal Class and Pegasus to a Nimitz class, then Galactica would be clearly larger than the Valkyrie and Pegasus would clearly be much larger than both. In the US Navy today, all these carriers have the exact same function, but vary in size by design and time. However, they are all aircraft carriers. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:29, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:::[[User:Hawke|Hawke]], I don't understand where you're coming from. I never said ''Valkyrie'' wasn't a battlestar. I said that if it's smaller than ''Galactica'', then it cannot be as capable. It cannot carry the same amount of fighters because its flight pods are smaller. Its guns cannot be as large, and we know thanks to ''Pegasus'' that guns like the ones ''Galactica'' carries are still effective weapons. It will not be able to absorb as much damage due to its smaller size. I'm honestly not sure what most of your post has to do with any of that.--[[User:Grin Reaper|Grin Reaper]] 08:26, 19 November 2006 (CST)

I think its also worth remembering that Galactica is 60 years old, and one of the first 12 Battlestars. Therefore Valkyrie must be a newer ship, which is suggested by some of its more Pegasusish design nods. Therefore yes it can quite easily be more powerful than Galactica, simply by having more modern technology. Yes Galactica will of been refitted and such and such, but refitting can only get you so far. If Galactica was able to hold its own next to newer ships it wouldn't of been about to be decommissioned when the series started. The fact is we don't know when Pegasus and Valkeryie were built, except that both most of been built post-Galactica's. That's probably also why Galactica is looked upon so harshly by Tigh. Galactica may of been in the fleet as an old relic. An old rust bucket that should of been decommissioned years ago. --[[User:CTerry|CTerry]] 18:05, 18 November 2006 (CST)

My thought are that we could gage the scale of the Valkyrie to the Galactica and Pegasus by looking at the flightpods. The width of the "mouth" should be the same as they all support and operate the vehicles - Vipers, Raptors and shuttles. Oh and the Shadow Star, can't forget that new one. The "banner" on the deck of each flightpod could be the same dimensions for landing purposes. As for the guns, I saw the one in the "eye" of the Valkyrie, one behind it on the "body" and three on the flightpod like that of the Pegasus. Most seemed to have only one cannon, while the that's in the "eye" appeared, in the firing sequence, to have two cannon. Cannon that fired a powered missle. The Galactica and Pegasus appeared, to me, to have the same type of main gun. The placement was not the same though. I'v been also thinking of the Galactica as being like a World War 2 carrier, since it had "AA guns" but uprated for modern operation. The Pegasus was a product of more modern times and doesn't appear to have any "AA guns". Due to the guns on the Valkyrie, I'd guess that it was perhaps the most modern design. Those main guns could be a newer design then those on Pegasus, unless they are a new "caliber". In the long run, I have to agree that it appears to be smaller and serve a slightly different purpose in the BSG, maybe a battlescruiser type to the battleship type that Galactica and Pegasus play. I can't but also say that perhaps, these ships could be treated as ships-of-the-line as in the age of sail. Interesting design, pity we'll never get to see more of it, unless Zoic is kind and releases some orthos of it. Or maybe some book comes out with orthos of all the Colonial ships and craft.
[[User:Cat-Scratched-Victim|Cat-Scratched-Victim]] 22:08, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:I found some screencaps and came up with these numbers (assuming symmetry, which I thought reasonable, given other Colonial designs):
::1 x heavy gun turret in an alcove on either side of the head
::1 x Heavy gun turret in an alcove on either side of the main body, above the flight pods.
::3 x more alcoves on either side of the main body that may or may not contain heavy gun turrets; There weren't any shots close enough for me to be certain.
::1 x heavy gun turret on either side of the dorsal crest.
::2 x possible heavy gun turrets aft of the dorsal crest. The image was from too far awawy to be sure, but they look quite similar to the ones astride the crest.
::2 x heavy gun turrets on the dorsal surface of the flight-pods, one foreward and one aft.
::3 x light gun turrets in alcoves on the side of each flight-pod. There were only three in-frame in the picture I saw them in, but it also only covered the foreward part of the flight pod, so there could be more.
:Having no images of the ship's underside, there's no way to tell what armament she has there.
:As far as I could tell, all the heavy gun turrets had two barrels. The lighter gun turrets are harder to make out, but they appear to be twin-barreled emplacements as well. They are definately smaller than the heavy turrets, though.
:As for the armaments of ''Pegasus'' and ''Galactica'', the heavy turrets on both are indeed extremely similar in appearance. ''Both'' possess extensive flak suites of lighter, rapid-fire guns. Although I've been unable to visually identify any of the emplacements on ''Pegasus'', I've certainly seen them firing.
:The way I see it, ''Valkyrie'' is a much smaller design, fitted with commensurately smaller weaponry, meant to support the heavier ships in a BSG like the ''Mercury''-class. More of a cruiser to their battleship, than a battlecruiser.--[[User:Grin Reaper|Grin Reaper]] 08:26, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:I kinda thought Valkyrie was a smaller battlestar, much like the Independence class light carriers of World War II or the support carriers (CVS) that the WW II era Essex class ships became. Essentially these ships were designed to undertake missions that didn't warrant the use of a big carrier. The CVL Independence, for example, was one of the first carriers deployed for night operations. Essex and her sisters were used for antisubmarine and amphibious operations. If Valkyrie were a ship of this type it would make more sense for her to be assigned a black op, since arguably she would be a somewhat less threatening presence than a full sized battlestar, and she would also be more expendable if something went wrong. I propose the term "Light Battlestar" to describe this ship. :) [[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 20:44, 20 November 2006 (CST)

:I think Valkyrie is an intermediate design somewhere between Galactica and Pegasus. As far as size goes, I think its comparable in dimensions to Galactica, and therefore slightly smaller than Pegasus. If you use the width and length of the flight pods as a scale, then Valkyrie is very similar to the other battlestars we've seen. The perception of small size I think is due to the narrower engine pods and propulsion section in the rear. Galactica has the addtional four engines from a refit that make her rear end wider, and Pegasus had much larger engines to begin with. The width of the bow and the overall length of the ship is about the same for all three.

== Number / Designation? ==
Am I seeing this right? From the capture, it looks like '''BSG 41''' on the seal. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Miniseries appearance? ==
[[Image:Miniseries Mystery Ship.jpg|thumb|left|Mystery ship? ([[Miniseries]])]]
I was watching the miniseries the other day and early in I could swear that the Valkyrie or a battlestar of the same make shows up. It's the same shot through the Caprica City doctor's window that shows the Firefly and Olympic Carrier-type ship. Is it just me or does anyone else see it? [[User:Motherfraker|Motherfraker]] 16:23, 22 November 2006 (CST)
:I just found a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aUZSKHhRXs clip on youtube] showing Serenity fly past and you can clearly see the mystery ship. Its certainly very large and looks like it may have 6 engines but I dont think its a battlestar. The middle section isnt big enough and the nose section is too pointy. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 17:01, 22 November 2006 (CST)
:I've noticed this ship before, and always presumed it was a [[Memoryalpha:Hirogen Warship]](not in BSG canon, obviously) from Star Trek. There are several instances of CG starship models from Star Trek appearing in Firefly as background ships, and as we know Serenity herself is seen in this scene, so it's possible that this vessel was put in as an "extra" to fill up space on the screen. I don't see any resemblance to the Valkyrie, but I could believe that this was a Colonial military craft of some sort.
Here's a picture of the Hirogen ship for reference: www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/hirogen-venatic-cgi.jpg --[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 18:57, 22 November 2006 (CST)
[[Image:MysteryShip.jpg|thumb|left|Mystery Ship ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]])]]
I'm pretty sure that's not the Valkyrie, I think it's just a background ship because it appeared again at the end of [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] during the fleet's emergency jump as seen in the screenshot provided here. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 20:54, 22 November 2006 (CST)
:Its a pretty cool looking ship though. It looks quote powerful, definitly fast with 5 engines. We have a page about most of the ships on the wiki, could we garner enough information about this to make a page. Its quite possible it has made appearances in other episodes too and could even have an official name as there are many ships in the "mentioned only" category. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 03:23, 23 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Battle of New Caprica/Archive 1

2006-11-10T00:15:01Z

Maserati1945: /* Atmospheric Heating Effects */

Holy frak. (And that was from the first 30 minutes.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:05, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:You took the words right out of my mouth. Most excellent! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::I know! Holy frakking frak. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:47, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:::My Grandchildrens' childeren will kmow about this episode! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:03, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Was so good... I am posting my own option.... 100 out of 10. ;-) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:39, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

==Losses==
We've said "dozens" or "hundreds", but we should decide on one, because frankly I support "dozens". Nobody died in Pegasus, and on New Caprica it didn't look like "hundreds" died considering that's a big number for these people. So what will it be? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:For starters, we don't know that there weren't fatalities aboard the ''Pegasus'' (people may have died from hull breaches or whatnot before Adama gave the order to abandon ship). I do agree, however, that it was probably dozens, maybe less than a couple hundred at max (and that's stretching it, IMHO) that died planetside. I would list "Losses currently unknown" until we start getting a fleet population count again, then work our way from there.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 18:10, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, "unknown number" would work better, since we do not know specifically either way. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 04:45, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

With the survivor count reinstated in "Collaborators" we now know that about 2000 people died on New Caprica, both in the insurgency and the exodus. 
LDYB: 39,192 + 2,000 + 2,200 = 43,392 (2000 in the escaped civilian ships, 2200 on both half-strength battlestars) 
Collaborators: 41,435 
Since there is some rounding and guessing involved anyways, "approximately 2000" seems to be the best.

It can also be assumed that a couple of civilian ships were destroyed or left back on the planet, as numerous civilians are on Galactica. RDM mentioned that in the podcast as well. We just didn't see it on screen. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:16, 29 October 2006 (CST)

:Unfortunately, that covers the entire time span between LDYB2 and Collaborators, nearly five months. We can be sure that many died in the Exodus, but many of those casualties must have taken place during the occupation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:43, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::True, but not even a larger part of it. There wasn't ''that'' much fighting until shortly before the end. Just guessing I'd say less than 300 during the occupation. That still leaves a sizeable amount of losses during the evacuation
::Maybe a note, saying that it includes the losses during the whole occupation? It's probably the closest we'll ever get to an accurate number and far better than "unknown" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:48, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Also, please dont neglect the destruction of Cloud Nine and the other two vessels alongside - they may have had a few 1000 people on them... --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 19:18, 29 October 2006 (CST)

:We haven't. See [[survivor count]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:06, 29 October 2006 (CST)

==Which Three is this Three?==

''...Meanwhile, Baltar and [[Caprica Six]] attempt to stop [[D'anna Biers]] from activating a nuclear device. After the Cylons lost control of the ground situation, the majority of the agents left on a [[Heavy Raider]] and left Biers with the responsibility of activating a nuclear device to "clean up"; however, she can't find it.''

How exactly was it detemined that this Three was the [[D'anna Biers]] Three? I would argue that this three was the one that tried to have the "War Heroes" boxed in [[Downloaded]]. D'anna, (assuming she died on Cloud 9, we don't know) was still alive and with the fleet according to the [[Timeline]].

And how did we determine that Three "couldn't find" the nuke? It appears that she made a beeline for the oracle, as presumably the nuke would be located inside the "green zone". [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 00:41, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, she was named as D'anna by Baltar, which is pretty interesting. Somehow she must have been able to avoid being exposed by Anders for over a year, until the arrival of new resurrection facilities. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
::Look at the "Number Three" article talk page. I posted a section on some research I did to find out which Three it was :p --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 05:59, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:As interesting as this discussion is, it is more relevant for the [[Exodus, Part II]] or [[Number Three]] page rather than the page for the battle. I'm cutting down the last paragraph about this sequence for the same reason. My rationale: once the civilian ships depart, once the basestars are destroyed/debilitated, once ''Galactica'' is away, a potential squabble between Baltar and whichever Cylons happen to remain on the surface matters very little. There is very limited militarily decisive action; it ought not get more than a cursory review in a battle summary, especially with as much as we must assume to make the description accurate. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 11:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:I concur with Keithustrus. Battle pages are not for episode or character narratives. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:49, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

==Atmospheric Heating Effects==

Of course it looked cool, but I am not really sure why the underside of Galactica would have been superheated as it descended toward New Caprica City the way it was protrayed in the episode. Such superheating is not the result of free-falling through the atmosphere, but actually the result of friction with the atmosphere due to extreme velocity. Which is precisely why skydivers do not burn up after jumping out of an airplane but space craft deorbiting (traveling initially at about 5 miles per second coming from low Earth orbit as an example) do. Galactica jumped into the atmosphere over New Caprica City, it did not (strictly speaking) reenter the atmosphere. It is possible, of course, that any velocity Galactica had prior to jumping was imparted to or else retained by Galactica after the jump. However, one might be pardoned for supposing that any such velocity would have been along the ship's main bow-to-stern axis (though this is not necessarily true), and not stright along the free fall axis the ship was clearly heating up on (i.e., from dorsal to ventral side). I would also point out that Galactica did not appear to be traveling at a sufficient speed in its fall to cause superheating, though of course this may be the subject of debate. Anyway, just a thought. The dramatic effect more than made up for any possible technical inaccuracy. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 19:08, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good technical error to add to one of the science articles, if the general article. ''Galactica'' would have had to be moving much faster than the rate she was falling. The Space Shuttle Orbiter superheats at less than 17,000 MPH as it reenters, and its much higher. Science be damned, though--it was thoroughly badass. :)--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:42, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Yeah, can you give me a suggestion as to which article(s) to bring this up in? --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:But don't forget, that data is based on the chemical makeup and density of our own atmosphere. Its possible that New Caprica's atmosphere is quite a bit different than Earth's, even though it is still inhabitable. And for all we know, FTL travel causes the surface of a vessel to heat up. This is all hypothetical, but its justification for the appearance of the atmospheric heating. --[[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]]

::Yes, but we have to assume that New Caprica's atmospheric makeup is at least somewhat similar to Earth normal (which carries the underlying assumption that the Colonials are used to something along those lines), or else we would notice some sort of profound difference, such as a difference in rate of combustion, sound transmission, or any number of other things. I just do not think we have any reason to believe New Caprica is any different (atmosphericaly) from any Terran-type planet. (Probably does not hurt that they actually film the episodes on Earth. ;-) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good bit of study but there is another very big factor and that is the sheer size of the Galactica. Nothing that size has ever been witnessed to enter Earth's atmosphere and the incredible mass of it adds a multiplier. What we are seeing is a large release of energy and energy is force through a given distance and force is mass and exceleration, therefore energy = mass x acceleration x change in distance or = mass x velocity squared. Those are 3 equal parameters to energy. We know that the space shuttle superheats at 17,000 mph or thereabouts and lets assume that the gravity of New Caprica is equal to the gravity of Earth, that is g = 9.8 m/s^2. Let's also assume that the distance that they dropped was 90,000 m - a guess from the dialog but really it's just a guess but what seems a theorical large enough distance for the depicted sequence of events to have occurred. Given these parameters, if the Galactica was 654,820 times larger than the space shuttle, then it would release the same amount of energy. (I could bore you with the math but I don't think that is necessary. Ya'll get the idea.) However, I am certainly willing to bet that the Galactica is many million times larger than the Space Shuttle and therefore would release many times more energy which would account for the same superheating effect seen on screen, though objects falling fair slower than the space shuttle, and of much less size cause the same superheating effect. Case in point, the Mercury-Redstone 3 carrying Alan Sheppard to be the 1st American in space only traveled to less than 10,000 MPH (it didn't reach orbital speeds) and was 1/2000 times the size of the space shuttle and it returned superheated. There was this super-rich dude (sorry, I can't remember his name. I'll come back later with a site but right now I can't remember the dudes name.) who recently did a superhigh jump from .... I think it was 80,000 feet and he had to wear heat shielding to protect himself. Again, much smaller object and starting from a relative standstill getting superheated. Normal parachute jumpers only jump from a few hundred to a few thousand feet but no more. You gotta face it! The Galactica is one big ole vessel and it had to jump from a very high altitude to pull off that stunt and it doesn't move through atmo without consequences.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 23:55, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, I ran the math again (1st time I did it practically in my head so it was a little esque) and if I say that the Galactica is 100,000 times larger than the space shuttle dropped at the same parameters, I get 15,000 times as much energy released. Therefore, 1 million times as large produces 150,000 times as much energy. This is taking the Galactica starting at a rest stop (no speed relative to New Caprica) when it initially jumped into the atmosphere. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:44, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I think you are missing the point here: the size of the object is not the issue, it is the speed at which it is traveling. Yes, Galactica has orders of magnitude more potential energy than the Space Shuttle reentering, but most of that energy would be released upon impact with the ground, not as a result of atmospheric friction. And I am not contending that Galactica would not have heated to some degree because of free-fall acceleration: it clearly would. (As indeed spacecraft do upon launch, just not nearly to the degree they do upon reentry where they have to use drag to *entirely* eliminate their orbital velocity.) Whether it would heat it to that degree or cause that level of damage is another question entirely. And there simply is no question that Galactica was traveling anywhere near 17,500 mile per hour or even the 10,000 miles per hour of a suborbital Alan Shepard-type loft. Those speeds are blindingly fast, and Galactica simply was not going that fast based on the video evidence. I lack the math physics to prove it, but I also suspect Galactica's terminal velocity within an atmosphere would also be far, far under the figures necessary to cause deorbit-type heating. Just my two cents. :) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 12:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks for you 2 cents. It's hard to say without actually doing the math (It's definitely a good science experiment for a Physics 101 course) and nobody here can say "Oh, yeah, this is the answer" cuz nobody has ever scene a 2,000,000,000,000 KG drop from that height. But my point is the number of zeroes that are in the mass of the Galactica and I've scene superheating events in significantly smaller objects. A mass with that many zeroes is just as important a factor as how fast it is going. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:28, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:Been a long time since taking physics, but let me throw in my two cents. Start with the basics: terminal velocity. If something goes faster than that, it's drag slows it until it reaches that speed. Drag = heat. Let's assume, based on the info [[wikipedia:terminal velocity|here at Wikipedia]] and [[wikipedia:Reentry|here]], that Galactica has terribly more drag than a skydiver or peregrine falcon. I'll guess it's TV is something like...pure guess...150km/h. This, btw, is 93mph or .04 km/s, absolutely nothing compared to the speeds that a ship would be travelling outside of an atmosphere. Here's the main question: '''after jumping, does Galactica begin with an initial velocity, relative to the planet, of 0, or does it maintain its inertial velocity?''' Wikipedia: "An approximate rule-of-thumb used by heat shield designers for estimating peak shock layer temperature is to assume the air temperature in Kelvins to be equal to the entry speed in meters per second. For example, a spacecraft entering the atmosphere at 7.8 km/s would experience a peak shock layer temperature of 7800 K." So, if Galactica started from a complete stop, it's shock layer temperature would be 42K, which I don't have to tell you is not going to light anything on fire. Because there was fire and all that stuff, I'm going to assume they were travelling at thousands of mph. My conclusion: '''when ships jump, they maintain their Newtonian momentum,''' which makes sense, when you think about it. It seems like the ship could have been saved a lot of wear and tear if it had manually stopped, then jumped. That way, it would fall at *only* its TV, and be subject to not much heat. . . . . . but I'm an amateur. Any experts around? - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 13:22, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Keithustus, Great analysis! However, you guess for TV I think is way off. TV is not a constant. It is a variable that has many parameters, one of which in the numerator is Mass. Therfore, the larger the Mass, the larger the TV. The impression the show gave is that it started from a standstill, what Galactica did was like a skydive. So I can make a comparison with a famous skydiver, [[wikipedia:Joseph Kittinger|Joseph Kittinger]]. In 1961, he jumped from a helium balloon at 102,800 feet (31,300 m) and reached a TV of 618 MPH (994 km/h), or mach 0.9. Since Galactica is 2,000,000,000 times more massive than he was, the TV should be considerably larger. Of course not 2,000,000,000 because the Galactica's cross-sectional area is also far far greater and that's in the denominator so without actually numbers, I can't say for sure the balance of the 2. But I think the TV is going to be more in the range of 1000s rather than 100s of km/h. Again, a guess though. The "reentry shock" effect isn't a factor because the Galactica is skydiving. It's not a question of bringing the Galactica to a rest before jumping but more of a case of Galactica matching the velocity of New Caprica as all objects in space are in motion. Before Galactica jumped, my guess is that they measured the planets vectoral velocity through its orbit around the star and attempted to match it as close as possible before jumping to allow it to enter its atmosphere at a zero velocity relative to New Caprica which would give it the best chance of pulling off its manuever. But all motion through atmosphere causes heat, how much heat is the question. All aircraft travelling above the speed of sound experience some degree of air compressional superheating along their bows, not enough to cause fire, but heating none the less. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 14:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I'm back. First, I apologize if removing all the tab-tab-tab-tabbing throws anyone off, but it was wasting a lot of room so I replaced each tab depth with a line of whitespace and two alternating tab depths. So, here's what I did:
#Determine size, displacement, and then determined density of ''[[wikipedia:Akula class submarine|Akula]]''-class submarine, the world's largest. It worked out to be 994 kg/m3, with a full load.
#Determined far larger volume of a [[Mercury class battlestar]], using its specified dimensions. Alright, here's the first big overestimate: I used the same density for the Battlestar as for the sub. The density of the sub ought to be far higher than that of the Battlestar, ''because I used the maximum distance of each dimension, as if the battlestar was a rectangular prism.'' Clearly, it's not, so this will give us an overestimated, and thus, safer, result. Using the same mass, which, as I said, is far higher probably than it should, the mass of ''Galactica'' becomes ...within a significant digit or two of... 140,000,000,000 kg.
#Now to the equation: TV = Sqrt( (2 * mass * gravity) / (coefficient of friction * cross section * density of air) )
:*2 is 2. Easy
:*mass is 1.4 x 10^11, as above
:*gravity....a bit of research indicates that it only lowers slightly, with it at 9.8 where we live, and 9.7 at the fringes of what is generally considered to be the atmosphere. I'll go with 9.75...minor flub.
:*coefficient of friction is hard....it is normally determined experimentally with a wind tunnel, but there are some computer programs that can do it for you, if you have the time, expertise, and precision. On the other hand, the battlestar as shown was kind of like a flat disc falling flat on its face, which has a coefficient of 1.3. Works for me. FYI, airplanes usually are in the .05 to .2 range, cars in .2 to .4, a smooth curved surface at 1. They don't really list a lot of things over 1.3, though...not worth flying I guess.
:*cross section. multipy length times width from specifications. 784770 m^2. Easy
:*atmospheric density. It's like 1.3 kg/m^3 near sea level, and is somewhat less than 1 high up. 1 sounds fine for me. We're just hoping within a significant digit, after all.
:4. Put all the numbers in the formula. Now, before the answer comes, remember that this is a right rectangular prism with a density matching that of a Russian submarine, and thus weighs probably 4-8 times what it ought, and that the friction is different in who knows what ways...my cheap estimates put the "block Battlestar" hitting a maximum velocity of '''1635 m/s, or 1.6 km/s, or 3,657 mph...JUST UNDER MACH 5''' (at sea level). Yikes! Given all the overestimating, I'd round it down to mach 4, maybe 3.5, who knows? Either way, who wants to put money on something built for combat damage to accept heat/turbulance stress at that eventual speed? I'm sold on them carefully match the rotation of the planet as suggested above...but I really don't have the time right now to determine how long it would take or what distance would be covered while reaching that speed (the air resistance really throws off those high-school equations). I've hit the edge of my grasping at this. Hope this has been entertainin and maybe not too uneducational. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 18:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
::Keithustus, that was very beautiful, I have to hand it to you. Wonderful! That must of taken you a little bit of time to come up with all those numbers. I'm looking it over and I like how you given leaway for error and I will take that TV of Sealevel Mach 4 to 5. It's about an imaginary spacecraft so we can make our own assumptions. So with this TV, we can now determine heat energy released by superheating friction with the atmosphere and that's another set of equations.....--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:19, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Or we could assume that FTL travel superheats the hull of a ship, and that caused the effect. Makes it much easier to swallow. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 08:36, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Ok, I've solved this once and for all. First, its likely that Galactica was moving with some velocity when it jumped, so this velocity was maintained after the jump as previous jumps with Raptors prove that velocity is maintained. Add to that the increase of acceleration that started as soon as Galactica finished the jump. When the major said "altitude 99,000, falling like a rock", he was probably referring to meters, and not feet. So more like 328,000 feet, give or take, or 62 miles, meaning that Galactica was above the theshold of what we call space here on Earth. Like the suborbital Mercury craft, Galactica experienced superheating on its underside because it was in fact passing through the atmosphere of New Caprica. The reason it looked like it was so much lower was because the ship is nearly a frakking mile (1.6 frakking kilometers) long. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 17:05, 09 November 2006 (CDT)

==A New Piece of Information About Galactica==
It seems like everyones talking about what Galactica's TV may or may not be, but to me the more interesting piece of information we can learn from the battle is that apparently, Galactica isn't designed to land on a planet's surface. Firstly, it lacks any sort of vertical thrusters, secondly, its surface seemed to not respond well to the head of re-entry, thirdly, Galactica has no apparent landing struts or similar devices. Also, we learn that many of the ships in the colonial fleet CAN land. Well actually we learned this earlier in LDYB, but now we also learn that they can take off. From all of this we can infer that Galactica was built, or at least assembled entirely in space, where it is born, lives, fights, and dies. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 15:14, 3 November 2006 (EST)

:Hi, Antagonist. It's not entirely new information; Gaeta alludes to this when Adama suggests going to Kobol himself, thinking that Adama meant taking the battlestar intraatmosphere ([[Home, Part II]]). I can't think of where any stats of the ship ever said it was a true spaceship, however, these also are not new; the remnants of the Fleet orbiting [[New Caprica]] in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] also apparently lacked landing ability. Yes, it's most likely that all battlestars are forever spaceborne. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:44, 3 November 2006 (EST)

==Galactica Battle Scars==
Is it just me but I have seen that the hull of Galactica looks almost black from the battle. There was a shot of the ship passing by that had a great view of the damage. --[[User:Bowersj8|Bowersj8]] 11:14, 8 November 2006 (EDT)

Talk:Battle of New Caprica/Archive 1

2006-11-10T00:10:43Z

Maserati1945: /* Atmospheric Heating Effects */

Holy frak. (And that was from the first 30 minutes.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:05, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:You took the words right out of my mouth. Most excellent! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::I know! Holy frakking frak. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:47, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:::My Grandchildrens' childeren will kmow about this episode! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:03, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Was so good... I am posting my own option.... 100 out of 10. ;-) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:39, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

==Losses==
We've said "dozens" or "hundreds", but we should decide on one, because frankly I support "dozens". Nobody died in Pegasus, and on New Caprica it didn't look like "hundreds" died considering that's a big number for these people. So what will it be? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:For starters, we don't know that there weren't fatalities aboard the ''Pegasus'' (people may have died from hull breaches or whatnot before Adama gave the order to abandon ship). I do agree, however, that it was probably dozens, maybe less than a couple hundred at max (and that's stretching it, IMHO) that died planetside. I would list "Losses currently unknown" until we start getting a fleet population count again, then work our way from there.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 18:10, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, "unknown number" would work better, since we do not know specifically either way. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 04:45, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

With the survivor count reinstated in "Collaborators" we now know that about 2000 people died on New Caprica, both in the insurgency and the exodus. 
LDYB: 39,192 + 2,000 + 2,200 = 43,392 (2000 in the escaped civilian ships, 2200 on both half-strength battlestars) 
Collaborators: 41,435 
Since there is some rounding and guessing involved anyways, "approximately 2000" seems to be the best.

It can also be assumed that a couple of civilian ships were destroyed or left back on the planet, as numerous civilians are on Galactica. RDM mentioned that in the podcast as well. We just didn't see it on screen. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:16, 29 October 2006 (CST)

:Unfortunately, that covers the entire time span between LDYB2 and Collaborators, nearly five months. We can be sure that many died in the Exodus, but many of those casualties must have taken place during the occupation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:43, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::True, but not even a larger part of it. There wasn't ''that'' much fighting until shortly before the end. Just guessing I'd say less than 300 during the occupation. That still leaves a sizeable amount of losses during the evacuation
::Maybe a note, saying that it includes the losses during the whole occupation? It's probably the closest we'll ever get to an accurate number and far better than "unknown" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:48, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Also, please dont neglect the destruction of Cloud Nine and the other two vessels alongside - they may have had a few 1000 people on them... --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 19:18, 29 October 2006 (CST)

:We haven't. See [[survivor count]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:06, 29 October 2006 (CST)

==Which Three is this Three?==

''...Meanwhile, Baltar and [[Caprica Six]] attempt to stop [[D'anna Biers]] from activating a nuclear device. After the Cylons lost control of the ground situation, the majority of the agents left on a [[Heavy Raider]] and left Biers with the responsibility of activating a nuclear device to "clean up"; however, she can't find it.''

How exactly was it detemined that this Three was the [[D'anna Biers]] Three? I would argue that this three was the one that tried to have the "War Heroes" boxed in [[Downloaded]]. D'anna, (assuming she died on Cloud 9, we don't know) was still alive and with the fleet according to the [[Timeline]].

And how did we determine that Three "couldn't find" the nuke? It appears that she made a beeline for the oracle, as presumably the nuke would be located inside the "green zone". [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 00:41, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, she was named as D'anna by Baltar, which is pretty interesting. Somehow she must have been able to avoid being exposed by Anders for over a year, until the arrival of new resurrection facilities. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
::Look at the "Number Three" article talk page. I posted a section on some research I did to find out which Three it was :p --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 05:59, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:As interesting as this discussion is, it is more relevant for the [[Exodus, Part II]] or [[Number Three]] page rather than the page for the battle. I'm cutting down the last paragraph about this sequence for the same reason. My rationale: once the civilian ships depart, once the basestars are destroyed/debilitated, once ''Galactica'' is away, a potential squabble between Baltar and whichever Cylons happen to remain on the surface matters very little. There is very limited militarily decisive action; it ought not get more than a cursory review in a battle summary, especially with as much as we must assume to make the description accurate. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 11:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:I concur with Keithustrus. Battle pages are not for episode or character narratives. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:49, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

==Atmospheric Heating Effects==

Of course it looked cool, but I am not really sure why the underside of Galactica would have been superheated as it descended toward New Caprica City the way it was protrayed in the episode. Such superheating is not the result of free-falling through the atmosphere, but actually the result of friction with the atmosphere due to extreme velocity. Which is precisely why skydivers do not burn up after jumping out of an airplane but space craft deorbiting (traveling initially at about 5 miles per second coming from low Earth orbit as an example) do. Galactica jumped into the atmosphere over New Caprica City, it did not (strictly speaking) reenter the atmosphere. It is possible, of course, that any velocity Galactica had prior to jumping was imparted to or else retained by Galactica after the jump. However, one might be pardoned for supposing that any such velocity would have been along the ship's main bow-to-stern axis (though this is not necessarily true), and not stright along the free fall axis the ship was clearly heating up on (i.e., from dorsal to ventral side). I would also point out that Galactica did not appear to be traveling at a sufficient speed in its fall to cause superheating, though of course this may be the subject of debate. Anyway, just a thought. The dramatic effect more than made up for any possible technical inaccuracy. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 19:08, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good technical error to add to one of the science articles, if the general article. ''Galactica'' would have had to be moving much faster than the rate she was falling. The Space Shuttle Orbiter superheats at less than 17,000 MPH as it reenters, and its much higher. Science be damned, though--it was thoroughly badass. :)--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:42, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Yeah, can you give me a suggestion as to which article(s) to bring this up in? --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:But don't forget, that data is based on the chemical makeup and density of our own atmosphere. Its possible that New Caprica's atmosphere is quite a bit different than Earth's, even though it is still inhabitable. And for all we know, FTL travel causes the surface of a vessel to heat up. This is all hypothetical, but its justification for the appearance of the atmospheric heating. --[[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]]

::Yes, but we have to assume that New Caprica's atmospheric makeup is at least somewhat similar to Earth normal (which carries the underlying assumption that the Colonials are used to something along those lines), or else we would notice some sort of profound difference, such as a difference in rate of combustion, sound transmission, or any number of other things. I just do not think we have any reason to believe New Caprica is any different (atmosphericaly) from any Terran-type planet. (Probably does not hurt that they actually film the episodes on Earth. ;-) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good bit of study but there is another very big factor and that is the sheer size of the Galactica. Nothing that size has ever been witnessed to enter Earth's atmosphere and the incredible mass of it adds a multiplier. What we are seeing is a large release of energy and energy is force through a given distance and force is mass and exceleration, therefore energy = mass x acceleration x change in distance or = mass x velocity squared. Those are 3 equal parameters to energy. We know that the space shuttle superheats at 17,000 mph or thereabouts and lets assume that the gravity of New Caprica is equal to the gravity of Earth, that is g = 9.8 m/s^2. Let's also assume that the distance that they dropped was 90,000 m - a guess from the dialog but really it's just a guess but what seems a theorical large enough distance for the depicted sequence of events to have occurred. Given these parameters, if the Galactica was 654,820 times larger than the space shuttle, then it would release the same amount of energy. (I could bore you with the math but I don't think that is necessary. Ya'll get the idea.) However, I am certainly willing to bet that the Galactica is many million times larger than the Space Shuttle and therefore would release many times more energy which would account for the same superheating effect seen on screen, though objects falling fair slower than the space shuttle, and of much less size cause the same superheating effect. Case in point, the Mercury-Redstone 3 carrying Alan Sheppard to be the 1st American in space only traveled to less than 10,000 MPH (it didn't reach orbital speeds) and was 1/2000 times the size of the space shuttle and it returned superheated. There was this super-rich dude (sorry, I can't remember his name. I'll come back later with a site but right now I can't remember the dudes name.) who recently did a superhigh jump from .... I think it was 80,000 feet and he had to wear heat shielding to protect himself. Again, much smaller object and starting from a relative standstill getting superheated. Normal parachute jumpers only jump from a few hundred to a few thousand feet but no more. You gotta face it! The Galactica is one big ole vessel and it had to jump from a very high altitude to pull off that stunt and it doesn't move through atmo without consequences.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 23:55, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, I ran the math again (1st time I did it practically in my head so it was a little esque) and if I say that the Galactica is 100,000 times larger than the space shuttle dropped at the same parameters, I get 15,000 times as much energy released. Therefore, 1 million times as large produces 150,000 times as much energy. This is taking the Galactica starting at a rest stop (no speed relative to New Caprica) when it initially jumped into the atmosphere. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:44, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I think you are missing the point here: the size of the object is not the issue, it is the speed at which it is traveling. Yes, Galactica has orders of magnitude more potential energy than the Space Shuttle reentering, but most of that energy would be released upon impact with the ground, not as a result of atmospheric friction. And I am not contending that Galactica would not have heated to some degree because of free-fall acceleration: it clearly would. (As indeed spacecraft do upon launch, just not nearly to the degree they do upon reentry where they have to use drag to *entirely* eliminate their orbital velocity.) Whether it would heat it to that degree or cause that level of damage is another question entirely. And there simply is no question that Galactica was traveling anywhere near 17,500 mile per hour or even the 10,000 miles per hour of a suborbital Alan Shepard-type loft. Those speeds are blindingly fast, and Galactica simply was not going that fast based on the video evidence. I lack the math physics to prove it, but I also suspect Galactica's terminal velocity within an atmosphere would also be far, far under the figures necessary to cause deorbit-type heating. Just my two cents. :) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 12:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks for you 2 cents. It's hard to say without actually doing the math (It's definitely a good science experiment for a Physics 101 course) and nobody here can say "Oh, yeah, this is the answer" cuz nobody has ever scene a 2,000,000,000,000 KG drop from that height. But my point is the number of zeroes that are in the mass of the Galactica and I've scene superheating events in significantly smaller objects. A mass with that many zeroes is just as important a factor as how fast it is going. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:28, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:Been a long time since taking physics, but let me throw in my two cents. Start with the basics: terminal velocity. If something goes faster than that, it's drag slows it until it reaches that speed. Drag = heat. Let's assume, based on the info [[wikipedia:terminal velocity|here at Wikipedia]] and [[wikipedia:Reentry|here]], that Galactica has terribly more drag than a skydiver or peregrine falcon. I'll guess it's TV is something like...pure guess...150km/h. This, btw, is 93mph or .04 km/s, absolutely nothing compared to the speeds that a ship would be travelling outside of an atmosphere. Here's the main question: '''after jumping, does Galactica begin with an initial velocity, relative to the planet, of 0, or does it maintain its inertial velocity?''' Wikipedia: "An approximate rule-of-thumb used by heat shield designers for estimating peak shock layer temperature is to assume the air temperature in Kelvins to be equal to the entry speed in meters per second. For example, a spacecraft entering the atmosphere at 7.8 km/s would experience a peak shock layer temperature of 7800 K." So, if Galactica started from a complete stop, it's shock layer temperature would be 42K, which I don't have to tell you is not going to light anything on fire. Because there was fire and all that stuff, I'm going to assume they were travelling at thousands of mph. My conclusion: '''when ships jump, they maintain their Newtonian momentum,''' which makes sense, when you think about it. It seems like the ship could have been saved a lot of wear and tear if it had manually stopped, then jumped. That way, it would fall at *only* its TV, and be subject to not much heat. . . . . . but I'm an amateur. Any experts around? - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 13:22, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Keithustus, Great analysis! However, you guess for TV I think is way off. TV is not a constant. It is a variable that has many parameters, one of which in the numerator is Mass. Therfore, the larger the Mass, the larger the TV. The impression the show gave is that it started from a standstill, what Galactica did was like a skydive. So I can make a comparison with a famous skydiver, [[wikipedia:Joseph Kittinger|Joseph Kittinger]]. In 1961, he jumped from a helium balloon at 102,800 feet (31,300 m) and reached a TV of 618 MPH (994 km/h), or mach 0.9. Since Galactica is 2,000,000,000 times more massive than he was, the TV should be considerably larger. Of course not 2,000,000,000 because the Galactica's cross-sectional area is also far far greater and that's in the denominator so without actually numbers, I can't say for sure the balance of the 2. But I think the TV is going to be more in the range of 1000s rather than 100s of km/h. Again, a guess though. The "reentry shock" effect isn't a factor because the Galactica is skydiving. It's not a question of bringing the Galactica to a rest before jumping but more of a case of Galactica matching the velocity of New Caprica as all objects in space are in motion. Before Galactica jumped, my guess is that they measured the planets vectoral velocity through its orbit around the star and attempted to match it as close as possible before jumping to allow it to enter its atmosphere at a zero velocity relative to New Caprica which would give it the best chance of pulling off its manuever. But all motion through atmosphere causes heat, how much heat is the question. All aircraft travelling above the speed of sound experience some degree of air compressional superheating along their bows, not enough to cause fire, but heating none the less. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 14:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I'm back. First, I apologize if removing all the tab-tab-tab-tabbing throws anyone off, but it was wasting a lot of room so I replaced each tab depth with a line of whitespace and two alternating tab depths. So, here's what I did:
#Determine size, displacement, and then determined density of ''[[wikipedia:Akula class submarine|Akula]]''-class submarine, the world's largest. It worked out to be 994 kg/m3, with a full load.
#Determined far larger volume of a [[Mercury class battlestar]], using its specified dimensions. Alright, here's the first big overestimate: I used the same density for the Battlestar as for the sub. The density of the sub ought to be far higher than that of the Battlestar, ''because I used the maximum distance of each dimension, as if the battlestar was a rectangular prism.'' Clearly, it's not, so this will give us an overestimated, and thus, safer, result. Using the same mass, which, as I said, is far higher probably than it should, the mass of ''Galactica'' becomes ...within a significant digit or two of... 140,000,000,000 kg.
#Now to the equation: TV = Sqrt( (2 * mass * gravity) / (coefficient of friction * cross section * density of air) )
:*2 is 2. Easy
:*mass is 1.4 x 10^11, as above
:*gravity....a bit of research indicates that it only lowers slightly, with it at 9.8 where we live, and 9.7 at the fringes of what is generally considered to be the atmosphere. I'll go with 9.75...minor flub.
:*coefficient of friction is hard....it is normally determined experimentally with a wind tunnel, but there are some computer programs that can do it for you, if you have the time, expertise, and precision. On the other hand, the battlestar as shown was kind of like a flat disc falling flat on its face, which has a coefficient of 1.3. Works for me. FYI, airplanes usually are in the .05 to .2 range, cars in .2 to .4, a smooth curved surface at 1. They don't really list a lot of things over 1.3, though...not worth flying I guess.
:*cross section. multipy length times width from specifications. 784770 m^2. Easy
:*atmospheric density. It's like 1.3 kg/m^3 near sea level, and is somewhat less than 1 high up. 1 sounds fine for me. We're just hoping within a significant digit, after all.
:4. Put all the numbers in the formula. Now, before the answer comes, remember that this is a right rectangular prism with a density matching that of a Russian submarine, and thus weighs probably 4-8 times what it ought, and that the friction is different in who knows what ways...my cheap estimates put the "block Battlestar" hitting a maximum velocity of '''1635 m/s, or 1.6 km/s, or 3,657 mph...JUST UNDER MACH 5''' (at sea level). Yikes! Given all the overestimating, I'd round it down to mach 4, maybe 3.5, who knows? Either way, who wants to put money on something built for combat damage to accept heat/turbulance stress at that eventual speed? I'm sold on them carefully match the rotation of the planet as suggested above...but I really don't have the time right now to determine how long it would take or what distance would be covered while reaching that speed (the air resistance really throws off those high-school equations). I've hit the edge of my grasping at this. Hope this has been entertainin and maybe not too uneducational. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 18:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
::Keithustus, that was very beautiful, I have to hand it to you. Wonderful! That must of taken you a little bit of time to come up with all those numbers. I'm looking it over and I like how you given leaway for error and I will take that TV of Sealevel Mach 4 to 5. It's about an imaginary spacecraft so we can make our own assumptions. So with this TV, we can now determine heat energy released by superheating friction with the atmosphere and that's another set of equations.....--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:19, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Or we could assume that FTL travel superheats the hull of a ship, and that caused the effect. Makes it much easier to swallow. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 08:36, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Ok, I've solved this once and for all. First, its likely that Galactica was moving with some velocity when it jumped, so this velocity was maintained after the jump as previous jumps with Raptors prove that velocity is maintained. Add to that the increase of acceleration that started as soon as Galactica finished the jump. When the major said "altitude 99,000, falling like a rock", he was probably referring to meters, and not feet. So more like 328,000 feet, give or take, or 62 miles, meaning that Galactica was above the theshold of what we call space on here on Earth. Like the suborbital Mercury craft, Galactica experienced superheating on its underside because it was in fact passing through the atmosphere of New Caprica. The reason it looked like it was so much lower was because the ship is nearly a frakking mile (1.6 frakking kilometers) long. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 17:05, 09 November 2006 (CDT)

==A New Piece of Information About Galactica==
It seems like everyones talking about what Galactica's TV may or may not be, but to me the more interesting piece of information we can learn from the battle is that apparently, Galactica isn't designed to land on a planet's surface. Firstly, it lacks any sort of vertical thrusters, secondly, its surface seemed to not respond well to the head of re-entry, thirdly, Galactica has no apparent landing struts or similar devices. Also, we learn that many of the ships in the colonial fleet CAN land. Well actually we learned this earlier in LDYB, but now we also learn that they can take off. From all of this we can infer that Galactica was built, or at least assembled entirely in space, where it is born, lives, fights, and dies. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 15:14, 3 November 2006 (EST)

:Hi, Antagonist. It's not entirely new information; Gaeta alludes to this when Adama suggests going to Kobol himself, thinking that Adama meant taking the battlestar intraatmosphere ([[Home, Part II]]). I can't think of where any stats of the ship ever said it was a true spaceship, however, these also are not new; the remnants of the Fleet orbiting [[New Caprica]] in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] also apparently lacked landing ability. Yes, it's most likely that all battlestars are forever spaceborne. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:44, 3 November 2006 (EST)

==Galactica Battle Scars==
Is it just me but I have seen that the hull of Galactica looks almost black from the battle. There was a shot of the ship passing by that had a great view of the damage. --[[User:Bowersj8|Bowersj8]] 11:14, 8 November 2006 (EDT)

Talk:Battle of New Caprica/Archive 1

2006-11-10T00:05:39Z

Maserati1945: /* Atmospheric Heating Effects */

Holy frak. (And that was from the first 30 minutes.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:05, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:You took the words right out of my mouth. Most excellent! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::I know! Holy frakking frak. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:47, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:::My Grandchildrens' childeren will kmow about this episode! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:03, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Was so good... I am posting my own option.... 100 out of 10. ;-) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:39, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

==Losses==
We've said "dozens" or "hundreds", but we should decide on one, because frankly I support "dozens". Nobody died in Pegasus, and on New Caprica it didn't look like "hundreds" died considering that's a big number for these people. So what will it be? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:For starters, we don't know that there weren't fatalities aboard the ''Pegasus'' (people may have died from hull breaches or whatnot before Adama gave the order to abandon ship). I do agree, however, that it was probably dozens, maybe less than a couple hundred at max (and that's stretching it, IMHO) that died planetside. I would list "Losses currently unknown" until we start getting a fleet population count again, then work our way from there.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 18:10, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, "unknown number" would work better, since we do not know specifically either way. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 04:45, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

With the survivor count reinstated in "Collaborators" we now know that about 2000 people died on New Caprica, both in the insurgency and the exodus. 
LDYB: 39,192 + 2,000 + 2,200 = 43,392 (2000 in the escaped civilian ships, 2200 on both half-strength battlestars) 
Collaborators: 41,435 
Since there is some rounding and guessing involved anyways, "approximately 2000" seems to be the best.

It can also be assumed that a couple of civilian ships were destroyed or left back on the planet, as numerous civilians are on Galactica. RDM mentioned that in the podcast as well. We just didn't see it on screen. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:16, 29 October 2006 (CST)

:Unfortunately, that covers the entire time span between LDYB2 and Collaborators, nearly five months. We can be sure that many died in the Exodus, but many of those casualties must have taken place during the occupation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:43, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::True, but not even a larger part of it. There wasn't ''that'' much fighting until shortly before the end. Just guessing I'd say less than 300 during the occupation. That still leaves a sizeable amount of losses during the evacuation
::Maybe a note, saying that it includes the losses during the whole occupation? It's probably the closest we'll ever get to an accurate number and far better than "unknown" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:48, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Also, please dont neglect the destruction of Cloud Nine and the other two vessels alongside - they may have had a few 1000 people on them... --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 19:18, 29 October 2006 (CST)

:We haven't. See [[survivor count]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:06, 29 October 2006 (CST)

==Which Three is this Three?==

''...Meanwhile, Baltar and [[Caprica Six]] attempt to stop [[D'anna Biers]] from activating a nuclear device. After the Cylons lost control of the ground situation, the majority of the agents left on a [[Heavy Raider]] and left Biers with the responsibility of activating a nuclear device to "clean up"; however, she can't find it.''

How exactly was it detemined that this Three was the [[D'anna Biers]] Three? I would argue that this three was the one that tried to have the "War Heroes" boxed in [[Downloaded]]. D'anna, (assuming she died on Cloud 9, we don't know) was still alive and with the fleet according to the [[Timeline]].

And how did we determine that Three "couldn't find" the nuke? It appears that she made a beeline for the oracle, as presumably the nuke would be located inside the "green zone". [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 00:41, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, she was named as D'anna by Baltar, which is pretty interesting. Somehow she must have been able to avoid being exposed by Anders for over a year, until the arrival of new resurrection facilities. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
::Look at the "Number Three" article talk page. I posted a section on some research I did to find out which Three it was :p --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 05:59, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:As interesting as this discussion is, it is more relevant for the [[Exodus, Part II]] or [[Number Three]] page rather than the page for the battle. I'm cutting down the last paragraph about this sequence for the same reason. My rationale: once the civilian ships depart, once the basestars are destroyed/debilitated, once ''Galactica'' is away, a potential squabble between Baltar and whichever Cylons happen to remain on the surface matters very little. There is very limited militarily decisive action; it ought not get more than a cursory review in a battle summary, especially with as much as we must assume to make the description accurate. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 11:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:I concur with Keithustrus. Battle pages are not for episode or character narratives. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:49, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

==Atmospheric Heating Effects==

Of course it looked cool, but I am not really sure why the underside of Galactica would have been superheated as it descended toward New Caprica City the way it was protrayed in the episode. Such superheating is not the result of free-falling through the atmosphere, but actually the result of friction with the atmosphere due to extreme velocity. Which is precisely why skydivers do not burn up after jumping out of an airplane but space craft deorbiting (traveling initially at about 5 miles per second coming from low Earth orbit as an example) do. Galactica jumped into the atmosphere over New Caprica City, it did not (strictly speaking) reenter the atmosphere. It is possible, of course, that any velocity Galactica had prior to jumping was imparted to or else retained by Galactica after the jump. However, one might be pardoned for supposing that any such velocity would have been along the ship's main bow-to-stern axis (though this is not necessarily true), and not stright along the free fall axis the ship was clearly heating up on (i.e., from dorsal to ventral side). I would also point out that Galactica did not appear to be traveling at a sufficient speed in its fall to cause superheating, though of course this may be the subject of debate. Anyway, just a thought. The dramatic effect more than made up for any possible technical inaccuracy. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 19:08, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good technical error to add to one of the science articles, if the general article. ''Galactica'' would have had to be moving much faster than the rate she was falling. The Space Shuttle Orbiter superheats at less than 17,000 MPH as it reenters, and its much higher. Science be damned, though--it was thoroughly badass. :)--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:42, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Yeah, can you give me a suggestion as to which article(s) to bring this up in? --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:But don't forget, that data is based on the chemical makeup and density of our own atmosphere. Its possible that New Caprica's atmosphere is quite a bit different than Earth's, even though it is still inhabitable. And for all we know, FTL travel causes the surface of a vessel to heat up. This is all hypothetical, but its justification for the appearance of the atmospheric heating. --[[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]]

::Yes, but we have to assume that New Caprica's atmospheric makeup is at least somewhat similar to Earth normal (which carries the underlying assumption that the Colonials are used to something along those lines), or else we would notice some sort of profound difference, such as a difference in rate of combustion, sound transmission, or any number of other things. I just do not think we have any reason to believe New Caprica is any different (atmosphericaly) from any Terran-type planet. (Probably does not hurt that they actually film the episodes on Earth. ;-) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good bit of study but there is another very big factor and that is the sheer size of the Galactica. Nothing that size has ever been witnessed to enter Earth's atmosphere and the incredible mass of it adds a multiplier. What we are seeing is a large release of energy and energy is force through a given distance and force is mass and exceleration, therefore energy = mass x acceleration x change in distance or = mass x velocity squared. Those are 3 equal parameters to energy. We know that the space shuttle superheats at 17,000 mph or thereabouts and lets assume that the gravity of New Caprica is equal to the gravity of Earth, that is g = 9.8 m/s^2. Let's also assume that the distance that they dropped was 90,000 m - a guess from the dialog but really it's just a guess but what seems a theorical large enough distance for the depicted sequence of events to have occurred. Given these parameters, if the Galactica was 654,820 times larger than the space shuttle, then it would release the same amount of energy. (I could bore you with the math but I don't think that is necessary. Ya'll get the idea.) However, I am certainly willing to bet that the Galactica is many million times larger than the Space Shuttle and therefore would release many times more energy which would account for the same superheating effect seen on screen, though objects falling fair slower than the space shuttle, and of much less size cause the same superheating effect. Case in point, the Mercury-Redstone 3 carrying Alan Sheppard to be the 1st American in space only traveled to less than 10,000 MPH (it didn't reach orbital speeds) and was 1/2000 times the size of the space shuttle and it returned superheated. There was this super-rich dude (sorry, I can't remember his name. I'll come back later with a site but right now I can't remember the dudes name.) who recently did a superhigh jump from .... I think it was 80,000 feet and he had to wear heat shielding to protect himself. Again, much smaller object and starting from a relative standstill getting superheated. Normal parachute jumpers only jump from a few hundred to a few thousand feet but no more. You gotta face it! The Galactica is one big ole vessel and it had to jump from a very high altitude to pull off that stunt and it doesn't move through atmo without consequences.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 23:55, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, I ran the math again (1st time I did it practically in my head so it was a little esque) and if I say that the Galactica is 100,000 times larger than the space shuttle dropped at the same parameters, I get 15,000 times as much energy released. Therefore, 1 million times as large produces 150,000 times as much energy. This is taking the Galactica starting at a rest stop (no speed relative to New Caprica) when it initially jumped into the atmosphere. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:44, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I think you are missing the point here: the size of the object is not the issue, it is the speed at which it is traveling. Yes, Galactica has orders of magnitude more potential energy than the Space Shuttle reentering, but most of that energy would be released upon impact with the ground, not as a result of atmospheric friction. And I am not contending that Galactica would not have heated to some degree because of free-fall acceleration: it clearly would. (As indeed spacecraft do upon launch, just not nearly to the degree they do upon reentry where they have to use drag to *entirely* eliminate their orbital velocity.) Whether it would heat it to that degree or cause that level of damage is another question entirely. And there simply is no question that Galactica was traveling anywhere near 17,500 mile per hour or even the 10,000 miles per hour of a suborbital Alan Shepard-type loft. Those speeds are blindingly fast, and Galactica simply was not going that fast based on the video evidence. I lack the math physics to prove it, but I also suspect Galactica's terminal velocity within an atmosphere would also be far, far under the figures necessary to cause deorbit-type heating. Just my two cents. :) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 12:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks for you 2 cents. It's hard to say without actually doing the math (It's definitely a good science experiment for a Physics 101 course) and nobody here can say "Oh, yeah, this is the answer" cuz nobody has ever scene a 2,000,000,000,000 KG drop from that height. But my point is the number of zeroes that are in the mass of the Galactica and I've scene superheating events in significantly smaller objects. A mass with that many zeroes is just as important a factor as how fast it is going. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:28, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:Been a long time since taking physics, but let me throw in my two cents. Start with the basics: terminal velocity. If something goes faster than that, it's drag slows it until it reaches that speed. Drag = heat. Let's assume, based on the info [[wikipedia:terminal velocity|here at Wikipedia]] and [[wikipedia:Reentry|here]], that Galactica has terribly more drag than a skydiver or peregrine falcon. I'll guess it's TV is something like...pure guess...150km/h. This, btw, is 93mph or .04 km/s, absolutely nothing compared to the speeds that a ship would be travelling outside of an atmosphere. Here's the main question: '''after jumping, does Galactica begin with an initial velocity, relative to the planet, of 0, or does it maintain its inertial velocity?''' Wikipedia: "An approximate rule-of-thumb used by heat shield designers for estimating peak shock layer temperature is to assume the air temperature in Kelvins to be equal to the entry speed in meters per second. For example, a spacecraft entering the atmosphere at 7.8 km/s would experience a peak shock layer temperature of 7800 K." So, if Galactica started from a complete stop, it's shock layer temperature would be 42K, which I don't have to tell you is not going to light anything on fire. Because there was fire and all that stuff, I'm going to assume they were travelling at thousands of mph. My conclusion: '''when ships jump, they maintain their Newtonian momentum,''' which makes sense, when you think about it. It seems like the ship could have been saved a lot of wear and tear if it had manually stopped, then jumped. That way, it would fall at *only* its TV, and be subject to not much heat. . . . . . but I'm an amateur. Any experts around? - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 13:22, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Keithustus, Great analysis! However, you guess for TV I think is way off. TV is not a constant. It is a variable that has many parameters, one of which in the numerator is Mass. Therfore, the larger the Mass, the larger the TV. The impression the show gave is that it started from a standstill, what Galactica did was like a skydive. So I can make a comparison with a famous skydiver, [[wikipedia:Joseph Kittinger|Joseph Kittinger]]. In 1961, he jumped from a helium balloon at 102,800 feet (31,300 m) and reached a TV of 618 MPH (994 km/h), or mach 0.9. Since Galactica is 2,000,000,000 times more massive than he was, the TV should be considerably larger. Of course not 2,000,000,000 because the Galactica's cross-sectional area is also far far greater and that's in the denominator so without actually numbers, I can't say for sure the balance of the 2. But I think the TV is going to be more in the range of 1000s rather than 100s of km/h. Again, a guess though. The "reentry shock" effect isn't a factor because the Galactica is skydiving. It's not a question of bringing the Galactica to a rest before jumping but more of a case of Galactica matching the velocity of New Caprica as all objects in space are in motion. Before Galactica jumped, my guess is that they measured the planets vectoral velocity through its orbit around the star and attempted to match it as close as possible before jumping to allow it to enter its atmosphere at a zero velocity relative to New Caprica which would give it the best chance of pulling off its manuever. But all motion through atmosphere causes heat, how much heat is the question. All aircraft travelling above the speed of sound experience some degree of air compressional superheating along their bows, not enough to cause fire, but heating none the less. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 14:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I'm back. First, I apologize if removing all the tab-tab-tab-tabbing throws anyone off, but it was wasting a lot of room so I replaced each tab depth with a line of whitespace and two alternating tab depths. So, here's what I did:
#Determine size, displacement, and then determined density of ''[[wikipedia:Akula class submarine|Akula]]''-class submarine, the world's largest. It worked out to be 994 kg/m3, with a full load.
#Determined far larger volume of a [[Mercury class battlestar]], using its specified dimensions. Alright, here's the first big overestimate: I used the same density for the Battlestar as for the sub. The density of the sub ought to be far higher than that of the Battlestar, ''because I used the maximum distance of each dimension, as if the battlestar was a rectangular prism.'' Clearly, it's not, so this will give us an overestimated, and thus, safer, result. Using the same mass, which, as I said, is far higher probably than it should, the mass of ''Galactica'' becomes ...within a significant digit or two of... 140,000,000,000 kg.
#Now to the equation: TV = Sqrt( (2 * mass * gravity) / (coefficient of friction * cross section * density of air) )
:*2 is 2. Easy
:*mass is 1.4 x 10^11, as above
:*gravity....a bit of research indicates that it only lowers slightly, with it at 9.8 where we live, and 9.7 at the fringes of what is generally considered to be the atmosphere. I'll go with 9.75...minor flub.
:*coefficient of friction is hard....it is normally determined experimentally with a wind tunnel, but there are some computer programs that can do it for you, if you have the time, expertise, and precision. On the other hand, the battlestar as shown was kind of like a flat disc falling flat on its face, which has a coefficient of 1.3. Works for me. FYI, airplanes usually are in the .05 to .2 range, cars in .2 to .4, a smooth curved surface at 1. They don't really list a lot of things over 1.3, though...not worth flying I guess.
:*cross section. multipy length times width from specifications. 784770 m^2. Easy
:*atmospheric density. It's like 1.3 kg/m^3 near sea level, and is somewhat less than 1 high up. 1 sounds fine for me. We're just hoping within a significant digit, after all.
:4. Put all the numbers in the formula. Now, before the answer comes, remember that this is a right rectangular prism with a density matching that of a Russian submarine, and thus weighs probably 4-8 times what it ought, and that the friction is different in who knows what ways...my cheap estimates put the "block Battlestar" hitting a maximum velocity of '''1635 m/s, or 1.6 km/s, or 3,657 mph...JUST UNDER MACH 5''' (at sea level). Yikes! Given all the overestimating, I'd round it down to mach 4, maybe 3.5, who knows? Either way, who wants to put money on something built for combat damage to accept heat/turbulance stress at that eventual speed? I'm sold on them carefully match the rotation of the planet as suggested above...but I really don't have the time right now to determine how long it would take or what distance would be covered while reaching that speed (the air resistance really throws off those high-school equations). I've hit the edge of my grasping at this. Hope this has been entertainin and maybe not too uneducational. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 18:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
::Keithustus, that was very beautiful, I have to hand it to you. Wonderful! That must of taken you a little bit of time to come up with all those numbers. I'm looking it over and I like how you given leaway for error and I will take that TV of Sealevel Mach 4 to 5. It's about an imaginary spacecraft so we can make our own assumptions. So with this TV, we can now determine heat energy released by superheating friction with the atmosphere and that's another set of equations.....--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:19, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Or we could assume that FTL travel superheats the hull of a ship, and that caused the effect. Makes it much easier to swallow. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 08:36, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Ok, I've solved this once and for all. When the major said "altitude 99,000, falling like a rock", he was probably referring to meters, and not feet. So more like 328,000 feet, give or take, or 62 miles, meaning that Galactica was above the theshold of what we call space on here on Earth. Like the suborbital Mercury craft, Galactica experienced superheating on its underside because it was in fact passing through the atmosphere of New Caprica. The reason it looked like it was so much lower was because the ship is nearly a frakking mile (1.6 frakking kilometers) long. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 17:05, 09 November 2006 (CDT)

==A New Piece of Information About Galactica==
It seems like everyones talking about what Galactica's TV may or may not be, but to me the more interesting piece of information we can learn from the battle is that apparently, Galactica isn't designed to land on a planet's surface. Firstly, it lacks any sort of vertical thrusters, secondly, its surface seemed to not respond well to the head of re-entry, thirdly, Galactica has no apparent landing struts or similar devices. Also, we learn that many of the ships in the colonial fleet CAN land. Well actually we learned this earlier in LDYB, but now we also learn that they can take off. From all of this we can infer that Galactica was built, or at least assembled entirely in space, where it is born, lives, fights, and dies. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 15:14, 3 November 2006 (EST)

:Hi, Antagonist. It's not entirely new information; Gaeta alludes to this when Adama suggests going to Kobol himself, thinking that Adama meant taking the battlestar intraatmosphere ([[Home, Part II]]). I can't think of where any stats of the ship ever said it was a true spaceship, however, these also are not new; the remnants of the Fleet orbiting [[New Caprica]] in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] also apparently lacked landing ability. Yes, it's most likely that all battlestars are forever spaceborne. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:44, 3 November 2006 (EST)

==Galactica Battle Scars==
Is it just me but I have seen that the hull of Galactica looks almost black from the battle. There was a shot of the ship passing by that had a great view of the damage. --[[User:Bowersj8|Bowersj8]] 11:14, 8 November 2006 (EDT)

Talk:Battle of New Caprica/Archive 1

2006-10-28T21:39:07Z

Maserati1945: /* Atmospheric Heating Effects */

Holy frak. (And that was from the first 30 minutes.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:05, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:You took the words right out of my mouth. Most excellent! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::I know! Holy frakking frak. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:47, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:::My Grandchildrens' childeren will kmow about this episode! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:03, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Was so good... I am posting my own option.... 100 out of 10. ;-) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:39, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

==Losses==
We've said "dozens" or "hundreds", but we should decide on one, because frankly I support "dozens". Nobody died in Pegasus, and on New Caprica it didn't look like "hundreds" died considering that's a big number for these people. So what will it be? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:For starters, we don't know that there weren't fatalities aboard the ''Pegasus'' (people may have died from hull breaches or whatnot before Adama gave the order to abandon ship). I do agree, however, that it was probably dozens, maybe less than a couple hundred at max (and that's stretching it, IMHO) that died planetside. I would list "Losses currently unknown" until we start getting a fleet population count again, then work our way from there.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 18:10, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, "unknown number" would work better, since we do not know specifically either way. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 04:45, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

==Which Three is this Three?==

''...Meanwhile, Baltar and [[Caprica Six]] attempt to stop [[D'anna Biers]] from activating a nuclear device. After the Cylons lost control of the ground situation, the majority of the agents left on a [[Heavy Raider]] and left Biers with the responsibility of activating a nuclear device to "clean up"; however, she can't find it.''

How exactly was it detemined that this Three was the [[D'anna Biers]] Three? I would argue that this three was the one that tried to have the "War Heroes" boxed in [[Downloaded]]. D'anna, (assuming she died on Cloud 9, we don't know) was still alive and with the fleet according to the [[Timeline]].

And how did we determine that Three "couldn't find" the nuke? It appears that she made a beeline for the oracle, as presumably the nuke would be located inside the "green zone". [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 00:41, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, she was named as D'anna by Baltar, which is pretty interesting. Somehow she must have been able to avoid being exposed by Anders for over a year, until the arrival of new resurrection facilities. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
::Look at the "Number Three" article talk page. I posted a section on some research I did to find out which Three it was :p --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 05:59, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:As interesting as this discussion is, it is more relevant for the [[Exodus, Part II]] or [[Number Three]] page rather than the page for the battle. I'm cutting down the last paragraph about this sequence for the same reason. My rationale: once the civilian ships depart, once the basestars are destroyed/debilitated, once ''Galactica'' is away, a potential squabble between Baltar and whichever Cylons happen to remain on the surface matters very little. There is very limited militarily decisive action; it ought not get more than a cursory review in a battle summary, especially with as much as we must assume to make the description accurate. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 11:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:I concur with Keithustrus. Battle pages are not for episode or character narratives. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:49, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

==Atmospheric Heating Effects==

Of course it looked cool, but I am not really sure why the underside of Galactica would have been superheated as it descended toward New Caprica City the way it was protrayed in the episode. Such superheating is not the result of free-falling through the atmosphere, but actually the result of friction with the atmosphere due to extreme velocity. Which is precisely why skydivers do not burn up after jumping out of an airplane but space craft deorbiting (traveling initially at about 5 miles per second coming from low Earth orbit as an example) do. Galactica jumped into the atmosphere over New Caprica City, it did not (strictly speaking) reenter the atmosphere. It is possible, of course, that any velocity Galactica had prior to jumping was imparted to or else retained by Galactica after the jump. However, one might be pardoned for supposing that any such velocity would have been along the ship's main bow-to-stern axis (though this is not necessarily true), and not stright along the free fall axis the ship was clearly heating up on (i.e., from dorsal to ventral side). I would also point out that Galactica did not appear to be traveling at a sufficient speed in its fall to cause superheating, though of course this may be the subject of debate. Anyway, just a thought. The dramatic effect more than made up for any possible technical inaccuracy. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 19:08, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good technical error to add to one of the science articles, if the general article. ''Galactica'' would have had to be moving much faster than the rate she was falling. The Space Shuttle Orbiter superheats at less than 17,000 MPH as it reenters, and its much higher. Science be damned, though--it was thoroughly badass. :)--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:42, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Yeah, can you give me a suggestion as to which article(s) to bring this up in? --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:But don't forget, that data is based on the chemical makeup and density of our own atmosphere. Its possible that New Caprica's atmosphere is quite a bit different than Earth's, even though it is still inhabitable. And for all we know, FTL travel causes the surface of a vessel to heat up. This is all hypothetical, but its justification for the appearance of the atmospheric heating. --[[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]]

::Yes, but we have to assume that New Caprica's atmospheric makeup is at least somewhat similar to Earth normal (which carries the underlying assumption that the Colonials are used to something along those lines), or else we would notice some sort of profound difference, such as a difference in rate of combustion, sound transmission, or any number of other things. I just do not think we have any reason to believe New Caprica is any different (atmosphericaly) from any Terran-type planet. (Probably does not hurt that they actually film the episodes on Earth. ;-) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good bit of study but there is another very big factor and that is the sheer size of the Galactica. Nothing that size has ever been witnessed to enter Earth's atmosphere and the incredible mass of it adds a multiplier. What we are seeing is a large release of energy and energy is force through a given distance and force is mass and exceleration, therefore energy = mass x acceleration x change in distance or = mass x velocity squared. Those are 3 equal parameters to energy. We know that the space shuttle superheats at 17,000 mph or thereabouts and lets assume that the gravity of New Caprica is equal to the gravity of Earth, that is g = 9.8 m/s^2. Let's also assume that the distance that they dropped was 90,000 m - a guess from the dialog but really it's just a guess but what seems a theorical large enough distance for the depicted sequence of events to have occurred. Given these parameters, if the Galactica was 654,820 times larger than the space shuttle, then it would release the same amount of energy. (I could bore you with the math but I don't think that is necessary. Ya'll get the idea.) However, I am certainly willing to bet that the Galactica is many million times larger than the Space Shuttle and therefore would release many times more energy which would account for the same superheating effect seen on screen, though objects falling fair slower than the space shuttle, and of much less size cause the same superheating effect. Case in point, the Mercury-Redstone 3 carrying Alan Sheppard to be the 1st American in space only traveled to less than 10,000 MPH (it didn't reach orbital speeds) and was 1/2000 times the size of the space shuttle and it returned superheated. There was this super-rich dude (sorry, I can't remember his name. I'll come back later with a site but right now I can't remember the dudes name.) who recently did a superhigh jump from .... I think it was 80,000 feet and he had to wear heat shielding to protect himself. Again, much smaller object and starting from a relative standstill getting superheated. Normal parachute jumpers only jump from a few hundred to a few thousand feet but no more. You gotta face it! The Galactica is one big ole vessel and it had to jump from a very high altitude to pull off that stunt and it doesn't move through atmo without consequences.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 23:55, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, I ran the math again (1st time I did it practically in my head so it was a little esque) and if I say that the Galactica is 100,000 times larger than the space shuttle dropped at the same parameters, I get 15,000 times as much energy released. Therefore, 1 million times as large produces 150,000 times as much energy. This is taking the Galactica starting at a rest stop (no speed relative to New Caprica) when it initially jumped into the atmosphere. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:44, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I think you are missing the point here: the size of the object is not the issue, it is the speed at which it is traveling. Yes, Galactica has orders of magnitude more potential energy than the Space Shuttle reentering, but most of that energy would be released upon impact with the ground, not as a result of atmospheric friction. And I am not contending that Galactica would not have heated to some degree because of free-fall acceleration: it clearly would. (As indeed spacecraft do upon launch, just not nearly to the degree they do upon reentry where they have to use drag to *entirely* eliminate their orbital velocity.) Whether it would heat it to that degree or cause that level of damage is another question entirely. And there simply is no question that Galactica was traveling anywhere near 17,500 mile per hour or even the 10,000 miles per hour of a suborbital Alan Shepard-type loft. Those speeds are blindingly fast, and Galactica simply was not going that fast based on the video evidence. I lack the math physics to prove it, but I also suspect Galactica's terminal velocity within an atmosphere would also be far, far under the figures necessary to cause deorbit-type heating. Just my two cents. :) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 12:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks for you 2 cents. It's hard to say without actually doing the math (It's definitely a good science experiment for a Physics 101 course) and nobody here can say "Oh, yeah, this is the answer" cuz nobody has ever scene a 2,000,000,000,000 KG drop from that height. But my point is the number of zeroes that are in the mass of the Galactica and I've scene superheating events in significantly smaller objects. A mass with that many zeroes is just as important a factor as how fast it is going. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:28, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:Been a long time since taking physics, but let me throw in my two cents. Start with the basics: terminal velocity. If something goes faster than that, it's drag slows it until it reaches that speed. Drag = heat. Let's assume, based on the info [[wikipedia:terminal velocity|here at Wikipedia]] and [[wikipedia:Reentry|here]], that Galactica has terribly more drag than a skydiver or peregrine falcon. I'll guess it's TV is something like...pure guess...150km/h. This, btw, is 93mph or .04 km/s, absolutely nothing compared to the speeds that a ship would be travelling outside of an atmosphere. Here's the main question: '''after jumping, does Galactica begin with an initial velocity, relative to the planet, of 0, or does it maintain its inertial velocity?''' Wikipedia: "An approximate rule-of-thumb used by heat shield designers for estimating peak shock layer temperature is to assume the air temperature in Kelvins to be equal to the entry speed in meters per second. For example, a spacecraft entering the atmosphere at 7.8 km/s would experience a peak shock layer temperature of 7800 K." So, if Galactica started from a complete stop, it's shock layer temperature would be 42K, which I don't have to tell you is not going to light anything on fire. Because there was fire and all that stuff, I'm going to assume they were travelling at thousands of mph. My conclusion: '''when ships jump, they maintain their Newtonian momentum,''' which makes sense, when you think about it. It seems like the ship could have been saved a lot of wear and tear if it had manually stopped, then jumped. That way, it would fall at *only* its TV, and be subject to not much heat. . . . . . but I'm an amateur. Any experts around? - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 13:22, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Keithustus, Great analysis! However, you guess for TV I think is way off. TV is not a constant. It is a variable that has many parameters, one of which in the numerator is Mass. Therfore, the larger the Mass, the larger the TV. The impression the show gave is that it started from a standstill, what Galactica did was like a skydive. So I can make a comparison with a famous skydiver, [[wikipedia:Joseph Kittinger|Joseph Kittinger]]. In 1961, he jumped from a helium balloon at 102,800 feet (31,300 m) and reached a TV of 618 MPH (994 km/h), or mach 0.9. Since Galactica is 2,000,000,000 times more massive than he was, the TV should be considerably larger. Of course not 2,000,000,000 because the Galactica's cross-sectional area is also far far greater and that's in the denominator so without actually numbers, I can't say for sure the balance of the 2. But I think the TV is going to be more in the range of 1000s rather than 100s of km/h. Again, a guess though. The "reentry shock" effect isn't a factor because the Galactica is skydiving. It's not a question of bringing the Galactica to a rest before jumping but more of a case of Galactica matching the velocity of New Caprica as all objects in space are in motion. Before Galactica jumped, my guess is that they measured the planets vectoral velocity through its orbit around the star and attempted to match it as close as possible before jumping to allow it to enter its atmosphere at a zero velocity relative to New Caprica which would give it the best chance of pulling off its manuever. But all motion through atmosphere causes heat, how much heat is the question. All aircraft travelling above the speed of sound experience some degree of air compressional superheating along their bows, not enough to cause fire, but heating none the less. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 14:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I'm back. First, I apologize if removing all the tab-tab-tab-tabbing throws anyone off, but it was wasting a lot of room so I replaced each tab depth with a line of whitespace and two alternating tab depths. So, here's what I did:
#Determine size, displacement, and then determined density of ''[[wikipedia:Akula class submarine|Akula]]''-class submarine, the world's largest. It worked out to be 994 kg/m3, with a full load.
#Determined far larger volume of a [[Mercury class battlestar]], using its specified dimensions. Alright, here's the first big overestimate: I used the same density for the Battlestar as for the sub. The density of the sub ought to be far higher than that of the Battlestar, ''because I used the maximum distance of each dimension, as if the battlestar was a rectangular prism.'' Clearly, it's not, so this will give us an overestimated, and thus, safer, result. Using the same mass, which, as I said, is far higher probably than it should, the mass of ''Galactica'' becomes ...within a significant digit or two of... 140,000,000,000 kg.
#Now to the equation: TV = Sqrt( (2 * mass * gravity) / (coefficient of friction * cross section * density of air) )
:*2 is 2. Easy
:*mass is 1.4 x 10^11, as above
:*gravity....a bit of research indicates that it only lowers slightly, with it at 9.8 where we live, and 9.7 at the fringes of what is generally considered to be the atmosphere. I'll go with 9.75...minor flub.
:*coefficient of friction is hard....it is normally determined experimentally with a wind tunnel, but there are some computer programs that can do it for you, if you have the time, expertise, and precision. On the other hand, the battlestar as shown was kind of like a flat disc falling flat on its face, which has a coefficient of 1.3. Works for me. FYI, airplanes usually are in the .05 to .2 range, cars in .2 to .4, a smooth curved surface at 1. They don't really list a lot of things over 1.3, though...not worth flying I guess.
:*cross section. multipy length times width from specifications. 784770 m^2. Easy
:*atmospheric density. It's like 1.3 kg/m^3 near sea level, and is somewhat less than 1 high up. 1 sounds fine for me. We're just hoping within a significant digit, after all.
:4. Put all the numbers in the formula. Now, before the answer comes, remember that this is a right rectangular prism with a density matching that of a Russian submarine, and thus weighs probably 4-8 times what it ought, and that the friction is different in who knows what ways...my cheap estimates put the "block Battlestar" hitting a maximum velocity of '''1635 m/s, or 1.6 km/s, or 3,657 mph...JUST UNDER MACH 5''' (at sea level). Yikes! Given all the overestimating, I'd round it down to mach 4, maybe 3.5, who knows? Either way, who wants to put money on something built for combat damage to accept heat/turbulance stress at that eventual speed? I'm sold on them carefully match the rotation of the planet as suggested above...but I really don't have the time right now to determine how long it would take or what distance would be covered while reaching that speed (the air resistance really throws off those high-school equations). I've hit the edge of my grasping at this. Hope this has been entertainin and maybe not too uneducational. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 18:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
::Keithustus, that was very beautiful, I have to hand it to you. Wonderful! That must of taken you a little bit of time to come up with all those numbers. I'm looking it over and I like how you given leaway for error and I will take that TV of Sealevel Mach 4 to 5. It's about an imaginary spacecraft so we can make our own assumptions. So with this TV, we can now determine heat energy released by superheating friction with the atmosphere and that's another set of equations.....--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:19, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Or we could assume that FTL travel superheats the hull of a ship, and that caused the effect. Makes it much easier to swallow. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 08:36, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Battle of New Caprica/Archive 1

2006-10-28T21:36:17Z

Maserati1945: /* Atmospheric Heating Effects */

Holy frak. (And that was from the first 30 minutes.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:05, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:You took the words right out of my mouth. Most excellent! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::I know! Holy frakking frak. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:47, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:::My Grandchildrens' childeren will kmow about this episode! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:03, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Was so good... I am posting my own option.... 100 out of 10. ;-) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:39, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

==Losses==
We've said "dozens" or "hundreds", but we should decide on one, because frankly I support "dozens". Nobody died in Pegasus, and on New Caprica it didn't look like "hundreds" died considering that's a big number for these people. So what will it be? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:For starters, we don't know that there weren't fatalities aboard the ''Pegasus'' (people may have died from hull breaches or whatnot before Adama gave the order to abandon ship). I do agree, however, that it was probably dozens, maybe less than a couple hundred at max (and that's stretching it, IMHO) that died planetside. I would list "Losses currently unknown" until we start getting a fleet population count again, then work our way from there.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 18:10, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, "unknown number" would work better, since we do not know specifically either way. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 04:45, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

==Which Three is this Three?==

''...Meanwhile, Baltar and [[Caprica Six]] attempt to stop [[D'anna Biers]] from activating a nuclear device. After the Cylons lost control of the ground situation, the majority of the agents left on a [[Heavy Raider]] and left Biers with the responsibility of activating a nuclear device to "clean up"; however, she can't find it.''

How exactly was it detemined that this Three was the [[D'anna Biers]] Three? I would argue that this three was the one that tried to have the "War Heroes" boxed in [[Downloaded]]. D'anna, (assuming she died on Cloud 9, we don't know) was still alive and with the fleet according to the [[Timeline]].

And how did we determine that Three "couldn't find" the nuke? It appears that she made a beeline for the oracle, as presumably the nuke would be located inside the "green zone". [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 00:41, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, she was named as D'anna by Baltar, which is pretty interesting. Somehow she must have been able to avoid being exposed by Anders for over a year, until the arrival of new resurrection facilities. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
::Look at the "Number Three" article talk page. I posted a section on some research I did to find out which Three it was :p --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 05:59, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:As interesting as this discussion is, it is more relevant for the [[Exodus, Part II]] or [[Number Three]] page rather than the page for the battle. I'm cutting down the last paragraph about this sequence for the same reason. My rationale: once the civilian ships depart, once the basestars are destroyed/debilitated, once ''Galactica'' is away, a potential squabble between Baltar and whichever Cylons happen to remain on the surface matters very little. There is very limited militarily decisive action; it ought not get more than a cursory review in a battle summary, especially with as much as we must assume to make the description accurate. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 11:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:I concur with Keithustrus. Battle pages are not for episode or character narratives. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:49, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

==Atmospheric Heating Effects==

Of course it looked cool, but I am not really sure why the underside of Galactica would have been superheated as it descended toward New Caprica City the way it was protrayed in the episode. Such superheating is not the result of free-falling through the atmosphere, but actually the result of friction with the atmosphere due to extreme velocity. Which is precisely why skydivers do not burn up after jumping out of an airplane but space craft deorbiting (traveling initially at about 5 miles per second coming from low Earth orbit as an example) do. Galactica jumped into the atmosphere over New Caprica City, it did not (strictly speaking) reenter the atmosphere. It is possible, of course, that any velocity Galactica had prior to jumping was imparted to or else retained by Galactica after the jump. However, one might be pardoned for supposing that any such velocity would have been along the ship's main bow-to-stern axis (though this is not necessarily true), and not stright along the free fall axis the ship was clearly heating up on (i.e., from dorsal to ventral side). I would also point out that Galactica did not appear to be traveling at a sufficient speed in its fall to cause superheating, though of course this may be the subject of debate. Anyway, just a thought. The dramatic effect more than made up for any possible technical inaccuracy. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 19:08, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good technical error to add to one of the science articles, if the general article. ''Galactica'' would have had to be moving much faster than the rate she was falling. The Space Shuttle Orbiter superheats at less than 17,000 MPH as it reenters, and its much higher. Science be damned, though--it was thoroughly badass. :)--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:42, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Yeah, can you give me a suggestion as to which article(s) to bring this up in? --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:But don't forget, that data is based on the chemical makeup and density of our own atmosphere. Its possible that New Caprica's atmosphere is quite a bit different than Earth's, even though it is still inhabitable. And for all we know, FTL travel causes the surface of a vessel to heat up. This is all hypothetical, but its justification for the appearance of the atmospheric heating. --[[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]]

::Yes, but we have to assume that New Caprica's atmospheric makeup is at least somewhat similar to Earth normal (which carries the underlying assumption that the Colonials are used to something along those lines), or else we would notice some sort of profound difference, such as a difference in rate of combustion, sound transmission, or any number of other things. I just do not think we have any reason to believe New Caprica is any different (atmosphericaly) from any Terran-type planet. (Probably does not hurt that they actually film the episodes on Earth. ;-) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good bit of study but there is another very big factor and that is the sheer size of the Galactica. Nothing that size has ever been witnessed to enter Earth's atmosphere and the incredible mass of it adds a multiplier. What we are seeing is a large release of energy and energy is force through a given distance and force is mass and exceleration, therefore energy = mass x acceleration x change in distance or = mass x velocity squared. Those are 3 equal parameters to energy. We know that the space shuttle superheats at 17,000 mph or thereabouts and lets assume that the gravity of New Caprica is equal to the gravity of Earth, that is g = 9.8 m/s^2. Let's also assume that the distance that they dropped was 90,000 m - a guess from the dialog but really it's just a guess but what seems a theorical large enough distance for the depicted sequence of events to have occurred. Given these parameters, if the Galactica was 654,820 times larger than the space shuttle, then it would release the same amount of energy. (I could bore you with the math but I don't think that is necessary. Ya'll get the idea.) However, I am certainly willing to bet that the Galactica is many million times larger than the Space Shuttle and therefore would release many times more energy which would account for the same superheating effect seen on screen, though objects falling fair slower than the space shuttle, and of much less size cause the same superheating effect. Case in point, the Mercury-Redstone 3 carrying Alan Sheppard to be the 1st American in space only traveled to less than 10,000 MPH (it didn't reach orbital speeds) and was 1/2000 times the size of the space shuttle and it returned superheated. There was this super-rich dude (sorry, I can't remember his name. I'll come back later with a site but right now I can't remember the dudes name.) who recently did a superhigh jump from .... I think it was 80,000 feet and he had to wear heat shielding to protect himself. Again, much smaller object and starting from a relative standstill getting superheated. Normal parachute jumpers only jump from a few hundred to a few thousand feet but no more. You gotta face it! The Galactica is one big ole vessel and it had to jump from a very high altitude to pull off that stunt and it doesn't move through atmo without consequences.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 23:55, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, I ran the math again (1st time I did it practically in my head so it was a little esque) and if I say that the Galactica is 100,000 times larger than the space shuttle dropped at the same parameters, I get 15,000 times as much energy released. Therefore, 1 million times as large produces 150,000 times as much energy. This is taking the Galactica starting at a rest stop (no speed relative to New Caprica) when it initially jumped into the atmosphere. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:44, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I think you are missing the point here: the size of the object is not the issue, it is the speed at which it is traveling. Yes, Galactica has orders of magnitude more potential energy than the Space Shuttle reentering, but most of that energy would be released upon impact with the ground, not as a result of atmospheric friction. And I am not contending that Galactica would not have heated to some degree because of free-fall acceleration: it clearly would. (As indeed spacecraft do upon launch, just not nearly to the degree they do upon reentry where they have to use drag to *entirely* eliminate their orbital velocity.) Whether it would heat it to that degree or cause that level of damage is another question entirely. And there simply is no question that Galactica was traveling anywhere near 17,500 mile per hour or even the 10,000 miles per hour of a suborbital Alan Shepard-type loft. Those speeds are blindingly fast, and Galactica simply was not going that fast based on the video evidence. I lack the math physics to prove it, but I also suspect Galactica's terminal velocity within an atmosphere would also be far, far under the figures necessary to cause deorbit-type heating. Just my two cents. :) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 12:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks for you 2 cents. It's hard to say without actually doing the math (It's definitely a good science experiment for a Physics 101 course) and nobody here can say "Oh, yeah, this is the answer" cuz nobody has ever scene a 2,000,000,000,000 KG drop from that height. But my point is the number of zeroes that are in the mass of the Galactica and I've scene superheating events in significantly smaller objects. A mass with that many zeroes is just as important a factor as how fast it is going. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:28, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:Been a long time since taking physics, but let me throw in my two cents. Start with the basics: terminal velocity. If something goes faster than that, it's drag slows it until it reaches that speed. Drag = heat. Let's assume, based on the info [[wikipedia:terminal velocity|here at Wikipedia]] and [[wikipedia:Reentry|here]], that Galactica has terribly more drag than a skydiver or peregrine falcon. I'll guess it's TV is something like...pure guess...150km/h. This, btw, is 93mph or .04 km/s, absolutely nothing compared to the speeds that a ship would be travelling outside of an atmosphere. Here's the main question: '''after jumping, does Galactica begin with an initial velocity, relative to the planet, of 0, or does it maintain its inertial velocity?''' Wikipedia: "An approximate rule-of-thumb used by heat shield designers for estimating peak shock layer temperature is to assume the air temperature in Kelvins to be equal to the entry speed in meters per second. For example, a spacecraft entering the atmosphere at 7.8 km/s would experience a peak shock layer temperature of 7800 K." So, if Galactica started from a complete stop, it's shock layer temperature would be 42K, which I don't have to tell you is not going to light anything on fire. Because there was fire and all that stuff, I'm going to assume they were travelling at thousands of mph. My conclusion: '''when ships jump, they maintain their Newtonian momentum,''' which makes sense, when you think about it. It seems like the ship could have been saved a lot of wear and tear if it had manually stopped, then jumped. That way, it would fall at *only* its TV, and be subject to not much heat. . . . . . but I'm an amateur. Any experts around? - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 13:22, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Keithustus, Great analysis! However, you guess for TV I think is way off. TV is not a constant. It is a variable that has many parameters, one of which in the numerator is Mass. Therfore, the larger the Mass, the larger the TV. The impression the show gave is that it started from a standstill, what Galactica did was like a skydive. So I can make a comparison with a famous skydiver, [[wikipedia:Joseph Kittinger|Joseph Kittinger]]. In 1961, he jumped from a helium balloon at 102,800 feet (31,300 m) and reached a TV of 618 MPH (994 km/h), or mach 0.9. Since Galactica is 2,000,000,000 times more massive than he was, the TV should be considerably larger. Of course not 2,000,000,000 because the Galactica's cross-sectional area is also far far greater and that's in the denominator so without actually numbers, I can't say for sure the balance of the 2. But I think the TV is going to be more in the range of 1000s rather than 100s of km/h. Again, a guess though. The "reentry shock" effect isn't a factor because the Galactica is skydiving. It's not a question of bringing the Galactica to a rest before jumping but more of a case of Galactica matching the velocity of New Caprica as all objects in space are in motion. Before Galactica jumped, my guess is that they measured the planets vectoral velocity through its orbit around the star and attempted to match it as close as possible before jumping to allow it to enter its atmosphere at a zero velocity relative to New Caprica which would give it the best chance of pulling off its manuever. But all motion through atmosphere causes heat, how much heat is the question. All aircraft travelling above the speed of sound experience some degree of air compressional superheating along their bows, not enough to cause fire, but heating none the less. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 14:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I'm back. First, I apologize if removing all the tab-tab-tab-tabbing throws anyone off, but it was wasting a lot of room so I replaced each tab depth with a line of whitespace and two alternating tab depths. So, here's what I did:
#Determine size, displacement, and then determined density of ''[[wikipedia:Akula class submarine|Akula]]''-class submarine, the world's largest. It worked out to be 994 kg/m3, with a full load.
#Determined far larger volume of a [[Mercury class battlestar]], using its specified dimensions. Alright, here's the first big overestimate: I used the same density for the Battlestar as for the sub. The density of the sub ought to be far higher than that of the Battlestar, ''because I used the maximum distance of each dimension, as if the battlestar was a rectangular prism.'' Clearly, it's not, so this will give us an overestimated, and thus, safer, result. Using the same mass, which, as I said, is far higher probably than it should, the mass of ''Galactica'' becomes ...within a significant digit or two of... 140,000,000,000 kg.
#Now to the equation: TV = Sqrt( (2 * mass * gravity) / (coefficient of friction * cross section * density of air) )
:*2 is 2. Easy
:*mass is 1.4 x 10^11, as above
:*gravity....a bit of research indicates that it only lowers slightly, with it at 9.8 where we live, and 9.7 at the fringes of what is generally considered to be the atmosphere. I'll go with 9.75...minor flub.
:*coefficient of friction is hard....it is normally determined experimentally with a wind tunnel, but there are some computer programs that can do it for you, if you have the time, expertise, and precision. On the other hand, the battlestar as shown was kind of like a flat disc falling flat on its face, which has a coefficient of 1.3. Works for me. FYI, airplanes usually are in the .05 to .2 range, cars in .2 to .4, a smooth curved surface at 1. They don't really list a lot of things over 1.3, though...not worth flying I guess.
:*cross section. multipy length times width from specifications. 784770 m^2. Easy
:*atmospheric density. It's like 1.3 kg/m^3 near sea level, and is somewhat less than 1 high up. 1 sounds fine for me. We're just hoping within a significant digit, after all.
:4. Put all the numbers in the formula. Now, before the answer comes, remember that this is a right rectangular prism with a density matching that of a Russian submarine, and thus weighs probably 4-8 times what it ought, and that the friction is different in who knows what ways...my cheap estimates put the "block Battlestar" hitting a maximum velocity of '''1635 m/s, or 1.6 km/s, or 3,657 mph...JUST UNDER MACH 5''' (at sea level). Yikes! Given all the overestimating, I'd round it down to mach 4, maybe 3.5, who knows? Either way, who wants to put money on something built for combat damage to accept heat/turbulance stress at that eventual speed? I'm sold on them carefully match the rotation of the planet as suggested above...but I really don't have the time right now to determine how long it would take or what distance would be covered while reaching that speed (the air resistance really throws off those high-school equations). I've hit the edge of my grasping at this. Hope this has been entertainin and maybe not too uneducational. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 18:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
::Keithustus, that was very beautiful, I have to hand it to you. Wonderful! That must of taken you a little bit of time to come up with all those numbers. I'm looking it over and I like how you given leaway for error and I will take that TV of Sealevel Mach 4 to 5. It's about an imaginary spacecraft so we can make our own assumptions. So with this TV, we can now determine heat energy released by superheating friction with the atmosphere and that's another set of equations.....--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:19, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Or we could assume that FTL travel superheats the hull of a ship, and that caused the effect. Makes it much easier to swallow. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]]08:36, 27 October 2006

Talk:Battle of New Caprica/Archive 1

2006-10-27T08:36:59Z

Maserati1945: /* Atmospheric Heating Effects */

Holy frak. (And that was from the first 30 minutes.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:05, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:You took the words right out of my mouth. Most excellent! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::I know! Holy frakking frak. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:47, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:::My Grandchildrens' childeren will kmow about this episode! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:03, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Was so good... I am posting my own option.... 100 out of 10. ;-) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:39, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

==Losses==
We've said "dozens" or "hundreds", but we should decide on one, because frankly I support "dozens". Nobody died in Pegasus, and on New Caprica it didn't look like "hundreds" died considering that's a big number for these people. So what will it be? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:For starters, we don't know that there weren't fatalities aboard the ''Pegasus'' (people may have died from hull breaches or whatnot before Adama gave the order to abandon ship). I do agree, however, that it was probably dozens, maybe less than a couple hundred at max (and that's stretching it, IMHO) that died planetside. I would list "Losses currently unknown" until we start getting a fleet population count again, then work our way from there.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 18:10, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, "unknown number" would work better, since we do not know specifically either way. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 04:45, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

==Which Three is this Three?==

''...Meanwhile, Baltar and [[Caprica Six]] attempt to stop [[D'anna Biers]] from activating a nuclear device. After the Cylons lost control of the ground situation, the majority of the agents left on a [[Heavy Raider]] and left Biers with the responsibility of activating a nuclear device to "clean up"; however, she can't find it.''

How exactly was it detemined that this Three was the [[D'anna Biers]] Three? I would argue that this three was the one that tried to have the "War Heroes" boxed in [[Downloaded]]. D'anna, (assuming she died on Cloud 9, we don't know) was still alive and with the fleet according to the [[Timeline]].

And how did we determine that Three "couldn't find" the nuke? It appears that she made a beeline for the oracle, as presumably the nuke would be located inside the "green zone". [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 00:41, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, she was named as D'anna by Baltar, which is pretty interesting. Somehow she must have been able to avoid being exposed by Anders for over a year, until the arrival of new resurrection facilities. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
::Look at the "Number Three" article talk page. I posted a section on some research I did to find out which Three it was :p --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 05:59, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:As interesting as this discussion is, it is more relevant for the [[Exodus, Part II]] or [[Number Three]] page rather than the page for the battle. I'm cutting down the last paragraph about this sequence for the same reason. My rationale: once the civilian ships depart, once the basestars are destroyed/debilitated, once ''Galactica'' is away, a potential squabble between Baltar and whichever Cylons happen to remain on the surface matters very little. There is very limited militarily decisive action; it ought not get more than a cursory review in a battle summary, especially with as much as we must assume to make the description accurate. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 11:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:I concur with Keithustrus. Battle pages are not for episode or character narratives. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:49, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

==Atmospheric Heating Effects==

Of course it looked cool, but I am not really sure why the underside of Galactica would have been superheated as it descended toward New Caprica City the way it was protrayed in the episode. Such superheating is not the result of free-falling through the atmosphere, but actually the result of friction with the atmosphere due to extreme velocity. Which is precisely why skydivers do not burn up after jumping out of an airplane but space craft deorbiting (traveling initially at about 5 miles per second coming from low Earth orbit as an example) do. Galactica jumped into the atmosphere over New Caprica City, it did not (strictly speaking) reenter the atmosphere. It is possible, of course, that any velocity Galactica had prior to jumping was imparted to or else retained by Galactica after the jump. However, one might be pardoned for supposing that any such velocity would have been along the ship's main bow-to-stern axis (though this is not necessarily true), and not stright along the free fall axis the ship was clearly heating up on (i.e., from dorsal to ventral side). I would also point out that Galactica did not appear to be traveling at a sufficient speed in its fall to cause superheating, though of course this may be the subject of debate. Anyway, just a thought. The dramatic effect more than made up for any possible technical inaccuracy. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 19:08, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good technical error to add to one of the science articles, if the general article. ''Galactica'' would have had to be moving much faster than the rate she was falling. The Space Shuttle Orbiter superheats at less than 17,000 MPH as it reenters, and its much higher. Science be damned, though--it was thoroughly badass. :)--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:42, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Yeah, can you give me a suggestion as to which article(s) to bring this up in? --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:But don't forget, that data is based on the chemical makeup and density of our own atmosphere. Its possible that New Caprica's atmosphere is quite a bit different than Earth's, even though it is still inhabitable. And for all we know, FTL travel causes the surface of a vessel to heat up. This is all hypothetical, but its justification for the appearance of the atmospheric heating. --[[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]]

::Yes, but we have to assume that New Caprica's atmospheric makeup is at least somewhat similar to Earth normal (which carries the underlying assumption that the Colonials are used to something along those lines), or else we would notice some sort of profound difference, such as a difference in rate of combustion, sound transmission, or any number of other things. I just do not think we have any reason to believe New Caprica is any different (atmosphericaly) from any Terran-type planet. (Probably does not hurt that they actually film the episodes on Earth. ;-) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good bit of study but there is another very big factor and that is the sheer size of the Galactica. Nothing that size has ever been witnessed to enter Earth's atmosphere and the incredible mass of it adds a multiplier. What we are seeing is a large release of energy and energy is force through a given distance and force is mass and exceleration, therefore energy = mass x acceleration x change in distance or = mass x velocity squared. Those are 3 equal parameters to energy. We know that the space shuttle superheats at 17,000 mph or thereabouts and lets assume that the gravity of New Caprica is equal to the gravity of Earth, that is g = 9.8 m/s^2. Let's also assume that the distance that they dropped was 90,000 m - a guess from the dialog but really it's just a guess but what seems a theorical large enough distance for the depicted sequence of events to have occurred. Given these parameters, if the Galactica was 654,820 times larger than the space shuttle, then it would release the same amount of energy. (I could bore you with the math but I don't think that is necessary. Ya'll get the idea.) However, I am certainly willing to bet that the Galactica is many million times larger than the Space Shuttle and therefore would release many times more energy which would account for the same superheating effect seen on screen, though objects falling fair slower than the space shuttle, and of much less size cause the same superheating effect. Case in point, the Mercury-Redstone 3 carrying Alan Sheppard to be the 1st American in space only traveled to less than 10,000 MPH (it didn't reach orbital speeds) and was 1/2000 times the size of the space shuttle and it returned superheated. There was this super-rich dude (sorry, I can't remember his name. I'll come back later with a site but right now I can't remember the dudes name.) who recently did a superhigh jump from .... I think it was 80,000 feet and he had to wear heat shielding to protect himself. Again, much smaller object and starting from a relative standstill getting superheated. Normal parachute jumpers only jump from a few hundred to a few thousand feet but no more. You gotta face it! The Galactica is one big ole vessel and it had to jump from a very high altitude to pull off that stunt and it doesn't move through atmo without consequences.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 23:55, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, I ran the math again (1st time I did it practically in my head so it was a little esque) and if I say that the Galactica is 100,000 times larger than the space shuttle dropped at the same parameters, I get 15,000 times as much energy released. Therefore, 1 million times as large produces 150,000 times as much energy. This is taking the Galactica starting at a rest stop (no speed relative to New Caprica) when it initially jumped into the atmosphere. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:44, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I think you are missing the point here: the size of the object is not the issue, it is the speed at which it is traveling. Yes, Galactica has orders of magnitude more potential energy than the Space Shuttle reentering, but most of that energy would be released upon impact with the ground, not as a result of atmospheric friction. And I am not contending that Galactica would not have heated to some degree because of free-fall acceleration: it clearly would. (As indeed spacecraft do upon launch, just not nearly to the degree they do upon reentry where they have to use drag to *entirely* eliminate their orbital velocity.) Whether it would heat it to that degree or cause that level of damage is another question entirely. And there simply is no question that Galactica was traveling anywhere near 17,500 mile per hour or even the 10,000 miles per hour of a suborbital Alan Shepard-type loft. Those speeds are blindingly fast, and Galactica simply was not going that fast based on the video evidence. I lack the math physics to prove it, but I also suspect Galactica's terminal velocity within an atmosphere would also be far, far under the figures necessary to cause deorbit-type heating. Just my two cents. :) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 12:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks for you 2 cents. It's hard to say without actually doing the math (It's definitely a good science experiment for a Physics 101 course) and nobody here can say "Oh, yeah, this is the answer" cuz nobody has ever scene a 2,000,000,000,000 KG drop from that height. But my point is the number of zeroes that are in the mass of the Galactica and I've scene superheating events in significantly smaller objects. A mass with that many zeroes is just as important a factor as how fast it is going. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:28, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:Been a long time since taking physics, but let me throw in my two cents. Start with the basics: terminal velocity. If something goes faster than that, it's drag slows it until it reaches that speed. Drag = heat. Let's assume, based on the info [[wikipedia:terminal velocity|here at Wikipedia]] and [[wikipedia:Reentry|here]], that Galactica has terribly more drag than a skydiver or peregrine falcon. I'll guess it's TV is something like...pure guess...150km/h. This, btw, is 93mph or .04 km/s, absolutely nothing compared to the speeds that a ship would be travelling outside of an atmosphere. Here's the main question: '''after jumping, does Galactica begin with an initial velocity, relative to the planet, of 0, or does it maintain its inertial velocity?''' Wikipedia: "An approximate rule-of-thumb used by heat shield designers for estimating peak shock layer temperature is to assume the air temperature in Kelvins to be equal to the entry speed in meters per second. For example, a spacecraft entering the atmosphere at 7.8 km/s would experience a peak shock layer temperature of 7800 K." So, if Galactica started from a complete stop, it's shock layer temperature would be 42K, which I don't have to tell you is not going to light anything on fire. Because there was fire and all that stuff, I'm going to assume they were travelling at thousands of mph. My conclusion: '''when ships jump, they maintain their Newtonian momentum,''' which makes sense, when you think about it. It seems like the ship could have been saved a lot of wear and tear if it had manually stopped, then jumped. That way, it would fall at *only* its TV, and be subject to not much heat. . . . . . but I'm an amateur. Any experts around? - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 13:22, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Keithustus, Great analysis! However, you guess for TV I think is way off. TV is not a constant. It is a variable that has many parameters, one of which in the numerator is Mass. Therfore, the larger the Mass, the larger the TV. The impression the show gave is that it started from a standstill, what Galactica did was like a skydive. So I can make a comparison with a famous skydiver, [[wikipedia:Joseph Kittinger|Joseph Kittinger]]. In 1961, he jumped from a helium balloon at 102,800 feet (31,300 m) and reached a TV of 618 MPH (994 km/h), or mach 0.9. Since Galactica is 2,000,000,000 times more massive than he was, the TV should be considerably larger. Of course not 2,000,000,000 because the Galactica's cross-sectional area is also far far greater and that's in the denominator so without actually numbers, I can't say for sure the balance of the 2. But I think the TV is going to be more in the range of 1000s rather than 100s of km/h. Again, a guess though. The "reentry shock" effect isn't a factor because the Galactica is skydiving. It's not a question of bringing the Galactica to a rest before jumping but more of a case of Galactica matching the velocity of New Caprica as all objects in space are in motion. Before Galactica jumped, my guess is that they measured the planets vectoral velocity through its orbit around the star and attempted to match it as close as possible before jumping to allow it to enter its atmosphere at a zero velocity relative to New Caprica which would give it the best chance of pulling off its manuever. But all motion through atmosphere causes heat, how much heat is the question. All aircraft travelling above the speed of sound experience some degree of air compressional superheating along their bows, not enough to cause fire, but heating none the less. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 14:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I'm back. First, I apologize if removing all the tab-tab-tab-tabbing throws anyone off, but it was wasting a lot of room so I replaced each tab depth with a line of whitespace and two alternating tab depths. So, here's what I did:
#Determine size, displacement, and then determined density of ''[[wikipedia:Akula class submarine|Akula]]''-class submarine, the world's largest. It worked out to be 994 kg/m3, with a full load.
#Determined far larger volume of a [[Mercury class battlestar]], using its specified dimensions. Alright, here's the first big overestimate: I used the same density for the Battlestar as for the sub. The density of the sub ought to be far higher than that of the Battlestar, ''because I used the maximum distance of each dimension, as if the battlestar was a rectangular prism.'' Clearly, it's not, so this will give us an overestimated, and thus, safer, result. Using the same mass, which, as I said, is far higher probably than it should, the mass of ''Galactica'' becomes ...within a significant digit or two of... 140,000,000,000 kg.
#Now to the equation: TV = Sqrt( (2 * mass * gravity) / (coefficient of friction * cross section * density of air) )
:*2 is 2. Easy
:*mass is 1.4 x 10^11, as above
:*gravity....a bit of research indicates that it only lowers slightly, with it at 9.8 where we live, and 9.7 at the fringes of what is generally considered to be the atmosphere. I'll go with 9.75...minor flub.
:*coefficient of friction is hard....it is normally determined experimentally with a wind tunnel, but there are some computer programs that can do it for you, if you have the time, expertise, and precision. On the other hand, the battlestar as shown was kind of like a flat disc falling flat on its face, which has a coefficient of 1.3. Works for me. FYI, airplanes usually are in the .05 to .2 range, cars in .2 to .4, a smooth curved surface at 1. They don't really list a lot of things over 1.3, though...not worth flying I guess.
:*cross section. multipy length times width from specifications. 784770 m^2. Easy
:*atmospheric density. It's like 1.3 kg/m^3 near sea level, and is somewhat less than 1 high up. 1 sounds fine for me. We're just hoping within a significant digit, after all.
:4. Put all the numbers in the formula. Now, before the answer comes, remember that this is a right rectangular prism with a density matching that of a Russian submarine, and thus weighs probably 4-8 times what it ought, and that the friction is different in who knows what ways...my cheap estimates put the "block Battlestar" hitting a maximum velocity of '''1635 m/s, or 1.6 km/s, or 3,657 mph...JUST UNDER MACH 5''' (at sea level). Yikes! Given all the overestimating, I'd round it down to mach 4, maybe 3.5, who knows? Either way, who wants to put money on something built for combat damage to accept heat/turbulance stress at that eventual speed? I'm sold on them carefully match the rotation of the planet as suggested above...but I really don't have the time right now to determine how long it would take or what distance would be covered while reaching that speed (the air resistance really throws off those high-school equations). I've hit the edge of my grasping at this. Hope this has been entertainin and maybe not too uneducational. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 18:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
::Keithustus, that was very beautiful, I have to hand it to you. Wonderful! That must of taken you a little bit of time to come up with all those numbers. I'm looking it over and I like how you given leaway for error and I will take that TV of Sealevel Mach 4 to 5. It's about an imaginary spacecraft so we can make our own assumptions. So with this TV, we can now determine heat energy released by superheating friction with the atmosphere and that's another set of equations.....--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:19, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Or we could assume that FTL travel superheats the hull of a ship, and that caused the effect. Makes it much easier to swallow.

Talk:Battle of New Caprica/Archive 1

2006-10-27T08:35:15Z

Maserati1945: /* Atmospheric Heating Effects */

Holy frak. (And that was from the first 30 minutes.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:05, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:You took the words right out of my mouth. Most excellent! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::I know! Holy frakking frak. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:47, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:::My Grandchildrens' childeren will kmow about this episode! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:03, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Was so good... I am posting my own option.... 100 out of 10. ;-) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:39, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

==Losses==
We've said "dozens" or "hundreds", but we should decide on one, because frankly I support "dozens". Nobody died in Pegasus, and on New Caprica it didn't look like "hundreds" died considering that's a big number for these people. So what will it be? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:For starters, we don't know that there weren't fatalities aboard the ''Pegasus'' (people may have died from hull breaches or whatnot before Adama gave the order to abandon ship). I do agree, however, that it was probably dozens, maybe less than a couple hundred at max (and that's stretching it, IMHO) that died planetside. I would list "Losses currently unknown" until we start getting a fleet population count again, then work our way from there.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 18:10, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, "unknown number" would work better, since we do not know specifically either way. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 04:45, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

==Which Three is this Three?==

''...Meanwhile, Baltar and [[Caprica Six]] attempt to stop [[D'anna Biers]] from activating a nuclear device. After the Cylons lost control of the ground situation, the majority of the agents left on a [[Heavy Raider]] and left Biers with the responsibility of activating a nuclear device to "clean up"; however, she can't find it.''

How exactly was it detemined that this Three was the [[D'anna Biers]] Three? I would argue that this three was the one that tried to have the "War Heroes" boxed in [[Downloaded]]. D'anna, (assuming she died on Cloud 9, we don't know) was still alive and with the fleet according to the [[Timeline]].

And how did we determine that Three "couldn't find" the nuke? It appears that she made a beeline for the oracle, as presumably the nuke would be located inside the "green zone". [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 00:41, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, she was named as D'anna by Baltar, which is pretty interesting. Somehow she must have been able to avoid being exposed by Anders for over a year, until the arrival of new resurrection facilities. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
::Look at the "Number Three" article talk page. I posted a section on some research I did to find out which Three it was :p --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 05:59, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:As interesting as this discussion is, it is more relevant for the [[Exodus, Part II]] or [[Number Three]] page rather than the page for the battle. I'm cutting down the last paragraph about this sequence for the same reason. My rationale: once the civilian ships depart, once the basestars are destroyed/debilitated, once ''Galactica'' is away, a potential squabble between Baltar and whichever Cylons happen to remain on the surface matters very little. There is very limited militarily decisive action; it ought not get more than a cursory review in a battle summary, especially with as much as we must assume to make the description accurate. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 11:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:I concur with Keithustrus. Battle pages are not for episode or character narratives. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:49, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

==Atmospheric Heating Effects==

Of course it looked cool, but I am not really sure why the underside of Galactica would have been superheated as it descended toward New Caprica City the way it was protrayed in the episode. Such superheating is not the result of free-falling through the atmosphere, but actually the result of friction with the atmosphere due to extreme velocity. Which is precisely why skydivers do not burn up after jumping out of an airplane but space craft deorbiting (traveling initially at about 5 miles per second coming from low Earth orbit as an example) do. Galactica jumped into the atmosphere over New Caprica City, it did not (strictly speaking) reenter the atmosphere. It is possible, of course, that any velocity Galactica had prior to jumping was imparted to or else retained by Galactica after the jump. However, one might be pardoned for supposing that any such velocity would have been along the ship's main bow-to-stern axis (though this is not necessarily true), and not stright along the free fall axis the ship was clearly heating up on (i.e., from dorsal to ventral side). I would also point out that Galactica did not appear to be traveling at a sufficient speed in its fall to cause superheating, though of course this may be the subject of debate. Anyway, just a thought. The dramatic effect more than made up for any possible technical inaccuracy. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 19:08, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good technical error to add to one of the science articles, if the general article. ''Galactica'' would have had to be moving much faster than the rate she was falling. The Space Shuttle Orbiter superheats at less than 17,000 MPH as it reenters, and its much higher. Science be damned, though--it was thoroughly badass. :)--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:42, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Yeah, can you give me a suggestion as to which article(s) to bring this up in? --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:But don't forget, that data is based on the chemical makeup and density of our own atmosphere. Its possible that New Caprica's atmosphere is quite a bit different than Earth's, even though it is still inhabitable. And for all we know, FTL travel causes the surface of a vessel to heat up. This is all hypothetical, but its justification for the appearance of the atmospheric heating.

::Yes, but we have to assume that New Caprica's atmospheric makeup is at least somewhat similar to Earth normal (which carries the underlying assumption that the Colonials are used to something along those lines), or else we would notice some sort of profound difference, such as a difference in rate of combustion, sound transmission, or any number of other things. I just do not think we have any reason to believe New Caprica is any different (atmosphericaly) from any Terran-type planet. (Probably does not hurt that they actually film the episodes on Earth. ;-) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good bit of study but there is another very big factor and that is the sheer size of the Galactica. Nothing that size has ever been witnessed to enter Earth's atmosphere and the incredible mass of it adds a multiplier. What we are seeing is a large release of energy and energy is force through a given distance and force is mass and exceleration, therefore energy = mass x acceleration x change in distance or = mass x velocity squared. Those are 3 equal parameters to energy. We know that the space shuttle superheats at 17,000 mph or thereabouts and lets assume that the gravity of New Caprica is equal to the gravity of Earth, that is g = 9.8 m/s^2. Let's also assume that the distance that they dropped was 90,000 m - a guess from the dialog but really it's just a guess but what seems a theorical large enough distance for the depicted sequence of events to have occurred. Given these parameters, if the Galactica was 654,820 times larger than the space shuttle, then it would release the same amount of energy. (I could bore you with the math but I don't think that is necessary. Ya'll get the idea.) However, I am certainly willing to bet that the Galactica is many million times larger than the Space Shuttle and therefore would release many times more energy which would account for the same superheating effect seen on screen, though objects falling fair slower than the space shuttle, and of much less size cause the same superheating effect. Case in point, the Mercury-Redstone 3 carrying Alan Sheppard to be the 1st American in space only traveled to less than 10,000 MPH (it didn't reach orbital speeds) and was 1/2000 times the size of the space shuttle and it returned superheated. There was this super-rich dude (sorry, I can't remember his name. I'll come back later with a site but right now I can't remember the dudes name.) who recently did a superhigh jump from .... I think it was 80,000 feet and he had to wear heat shielding to protect himself. Again, much smaller object and starting from a relative standstill getting superheated. Normal parachute jumpers only jump from a few hundred to a few thousand feet but no more. You gotta face it! The Galactica is one big ole vessel and it had to jump from a very high altitude to pull off that stunt and it doesn't move through atmo without consequences.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 23:55, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, I ran the math again (1st time I did it practically in my head so it was a little esque) and if I say that the Galactica is 100,000 times larger than the space shuttle dropped at the same parameters, I get 15,000 times as much energy released. Therefore, 1 million times as large produces 150,000 times as much energy. This is taking the Galactica starting at a rest stop (no speed relative to New Caprica) when it initially jumped into the atmosphere. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:44, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I think you are missing the point here: the size of the object is not the issue, it is the speed at which it is traveling. Yes, Galactica has orders of magnitude more potential energy than the Space Shuttle reentering, but most of that energy would be released upon impact with the ground, not as a result of atmospheric friction. And I am not contending that Galactica would not have heated to some degree because of free-fall acceleration: it clearly would. (As indeed spacecraft do upon launch, just not nearly to the degree they do upon reentry where they have to use drag to *entirely* eliminate their orbital velocity.) Whether it would heat it to that degree or cause that level of damage is another question entirely. And there simply is no question that Galactica was traveling anywhere near 17,500 mile per hour or even the 10,000 miles per hour of a suborbital Alan Shepard-type loft. Those speeds are blindingly fast, and Galactica simply was not going that fast based on the video evidence. I lack the math physics to prove it, but I also suspect Galactica's terminal velocity within an atmosphere would also be far, far under the figures necessary to cause deorbit-type heating. Just my two cents. :) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 12:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks for you 2 cents. It's hard to say without actually doing the math (It's definitely a good science experiment for a Physics 101 course) and nobody here can say "Oh, yeah, this is the answer" cuz nobody has ever scene a 2,000,000,000,000 KG drop from that height. But my point is the number of zeroes that are in the mass of the Galactica and I've scene superheating events in significantly smaller objects. A mass with that many zeroes is just as important a factor as how fast it is going. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:28, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:Been a long time since taking physics, but let me throw in my two cents. Start with the basics: terminal velocity. If something goes faster than that, it's drag slows it until it reaches that speed. Drag = heat. Let's assume, based on the info [[wikipedia:terminal velocity|here at Wikipedia]] and [[wikipedia:Reentry|here]], that Galactica has terribly more drag than a skydiver or peregrine falcon. I'll guess it's TV is something like...pure guess...150km/h. This, btw, is 93mph or .04 km/s, absolutely nothing compared to the speeds that a ship would be travelling outside of an atmosphere. Here's the main question: '''after jumping, does Galactica begin with an initial velocity, relative to the planet, of 0, or does it maintain its inertial velocity?''' Wikipedia: "An approximate rule-of-thumb used by heat shield designers for estimating peak shock layer temperature is to assume the air temperature in Kelvins to be equal to the entry speed in meters per second. For example, a spacecraft entering the atmosphere at 7.8 km/s would experience a peak shock layer temperature of 7800 K." So, if Galactica started from a complete stop, it's shock layer temperature would be 42K, which I don't have to tell you is not going to light anything on fire. Because there was fire and all that stuff, I'm going to assume they were travelling at thousands of mph. My conclusion: '''when ships jump, they maintain their Newtonian momentum,''' which makes sense, when you think about it. It seems like the ship could have been saved a lot of wear and tear if it had manually stopped, then jumped. That way, it would fall at *only* its TV, and be subject to not much heat. . . . . . but I'm an amateur. Any experts around? - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 13:22, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Keithustus, Great analysis! However, you guess for TV I think is way off. TV is not a constant. It is a variable that has many parameters, one of which in the numerator is Mass. Therfore, the larger the Mass, the larger the TV. The impression the show gave is that it started from a standstill, what Galactica did was like a skydive. So I can make a comparison with a famous skydiver, [[wikipedia:Joseph Kittinger|Joseph Kittinger]]. In 1961, he jumped from a helium balloon at 102,800 feet (31,300 m) and reached a TV of 618 MPH (994 km/h), or mach 0.9. Since Galactica is 2,000,000,000 times more massive than he was, the TV should be considerably larger. Of course not 2,000,000,000 because the Galactica's cross-sectional area is also far far greater and that's in the denominator so without actually numbers, I can't say for sure the balance of the 2. But I think the TV is going to be more in the range of 1000s rather than 100s of km/h. Again, a guess though. The "reentry shock" effect isn't a factor because the Galactica is skydiving. It's not a question of bringing the Galactica to a rest before jumping but more of a case of Galactica matching the velocity of New Caprica as all objects in space are in motion. Before Galactica jumped, my guess is that they measured the planets vectoral velocity through its orbit around the star and attempted to match it as close as possible before jumping to allow it to enter its atmosphere at a zero velocity relative to New Caprica which would give it the best chance of pulling off its manuever. But all motion through atmosphere causes heat, how much heat is the question. All aircraft travelling above the speed of sound experience some degree of air compressional superheating along their bows, not enough to cause fire, but heating none the less. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 14:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I'm back. First, I apologize if removing all the tab-tab-tab-tabbing throws anyone off, but it was wasting a lot of room so I replaced each tab depth with a line of whitespace and two alternating tab depths. So, here's what I did:
#Determine size, displacement, and then determined density of ''[[wikipedia:Akula class submarine|Akula]]''-class submarine, the world's largest. It worked out to be 994 kg/m3, with a full load.
#Determined far larger volume of a [[Mercury class battlestar]], using its specified dimensions. Alright, here's the first big overestimate: I used the same density for the Battlestar as for the sub. The density of the sub ought to be far higher than that of the Battlestar, ''because I used the maximum distance of each dimension, as if the battlestar was a rectangular prism.'' Clearly, it's not, so this will give us an overestimated, and thus, safer, result. Using the same mass, which, as I said, is far higher probably than it should, the mass of ''Galactica'' becomes ...within a significant digit or two of... 140,000,000,000 kg.
#Now to the equation: TV = Sqrt( (2 * mass * gravity) / (coefficient of friction * cross section * density of air) )
:*2 is 2. Easy
:*mass is 1.4 x 10^11, as above
:*gravity....a bit of research indicates that it only lowers slightly, with it at 9.8 where we live, and 9.7 at the fringes of what is generally considered to be the atmosphere. I'll go with 9.75...minor flub.
:*coefficient of friction is hard....it is normally determined experimentally with a wind tunnel, but there are some computer programs that can do it for you, if you have the time, expertise, and precision. On the other hand, the battlestar as shown was kind of like a flat disc falling flat on its face, which has a coefficient of 1.3. Works for me. FYI, airplanes usually are in the .05 to .2 range, cars in .2 to .4, a smooth curved surface at 1. They don't really list a lot of things over 1.3, though...not worth flying I guess.
:*cross section. multipy length times width from specifications. 784770 m^2. Easy
:*atmospheric density. It's like 1.3 kg/m^3 near sea level, and is somewhat less than 1 high up. 1 sounds fine for me. We're just hoping within a significant digit, after all.
:4. Put all the numbers in the formula. Now, before the answer comes, remember that this is a right rectangular prism with a density matching that of a Russian submarine, and thus weighs probably 4-8 times what it ought, and that the friction is different in who knows what ways...my cheap estimates put the "block Battlestar" hitting a maximum velocity of '''1635 m/s, or 1.6 km/s, or 3,657 mph...JUST UNDER MACH 5''' (at sea level). Yikes! Given all the overestimating, I'd round it down to mach 4, maybe 3.5, who knows? Either way, who wants to put money on something built for combat damage to accept heat/turbulance stress at that eventual speed? I'm sold on them carefully match the rotation of the planet as suggested above...but I really don't have the time right now to determine how long it would take or what distance would be covered while reaching that speed (the air resistance really throws off those high-school equations). I've hit the edge of my grasping at this. Hope this has been entertainin and maybe not too uneducational. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 18:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
::Keithustus, that was very beautiful, I have to hand it to you. Wonderful! That must of taken you a little bit of time to come up with all those numbers. I'm looking it over and I like how you given leaway for error and I will take that TV of Sealevel Mach 4 to 5. It's about an imaginary spacecraft so we can make our own assumptions. So with this TV, we can now determine heat energy released by superheating friction with the atmosphere and that's another set of equations.....--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:19, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Or we could assume that FTL travel superheats the hull of a ship, and that caused the effect. Makes it much easier to swallow.

Talk:Battle of New Caprica/Archive 1

2006-10-26T01:56:03Z

Maserati1945: /* Atmospheric Heating Effects */

Salt Line Ceremony

2006-10-14T10:03:30Z

Maserati1945:

[[Image:Salt Line Ceremony.jpg|thumb|200px|[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]] on the left; [[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]] on the right]]

A [[Colonial]] military ceremony, typically taking place before the start of a major battle. A line of table salt is placed on the ground between two rows of soldiers. A passage of scripture is read, and the two rows converge, spreading the salt line with their feet.

One such ceremony was conducted by Lt. Margaret "[[Racetrack]]" Edmondson on the hangar deck of the Battlestar [[Galactica]] before the start of the mission to rescue the Colonials remaining under [[Cylon]] occupation on [[New Caprica]]. The extremely emotional ceremony ended with an embrace by [[Galactica]] and [[Pegasus]] crew members who knew they might never see each other again. ([[Exodus, Part I]])

Salt Line Ceremony

2006-10-14T10:03:24Z

Maserati1945:

[[Image:Salt Line Ceremony.jpg|thumb|200px|[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]] on the left; [[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]] on the right]]

A [[Colonial]] military ceremony, typically taking place before the start of a major battle. A line of table salt is placed on the ground between two rows of soldiers. A passage of scripture is read, and the two rows converge, spreading the salt line with their feet.

One such ceremony was conducted by Lt. Margaret "[[Racetrack]]" Edmondson on the hangar deck of the Battlestar [[Galactica]] before the start of the mission to rescue the Colonials remaining under [[Cylon]] occupation on [[New Caprica]] . The extremely emotional ceremony ended with an embrace by [[Galactica]] and [[Pegasus]] crew members who knew they might never see each other again. ([[Exodus, Part I]])

Salt Line Ceremony

2006-10-14T10:02:22Z

Maserati1945:

[[Image:Salt Line Ceremony.jpg|thumb|200px|[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]] on the left; [[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]] on the right]]

A [[Colonial]] military ceremony, typically taking place before the start of a major battle. A line of table salt is placed on the ground between two rows of soldiers. A passage of scripture is read, and the two rows converge, spreading the salt line with their feet.

One such ceremony was conducted by Lt. Margaret "[[Racetrack]]" Edmondson on the hangar deck of the Battlestar [[Galactica]] before the start of the mission to rescue the Colonials remaining on [[New Caprica]] under the [[Cylon]] occupation. The extremely emotional ceremony ended with an embrace by [[Galactica]] and [[Pegasus]] crew members who knew they might never see each other again. ([[Exodus, Part I]])

Salt Line Ceremony

2006-10-14T10:01:05Z

Maserati1945:

A [[Colonial]] military ceremony, typically taking place before the start of a major battle. A line of table salt is placed on the ground between two rows of soldiers. A passage of scripture is read, and the two rows converge, spreading the salt line with their feet.

One such ceremony was conducted by Lt. Margaret "[[Racetrack]]" Edmondson on the hangar deck of the [[Battlestar Galactica]] before the start of the mission to rescue the Colonials remaining on [[New Caprica]] under the [[Cylon]] occupation. The extremely emotional ceremony ended with an embrace by [[Galactica]] and [[Pegasus]] crew members who knew they might never see each other again. ([[Exodus, Part I]])

Salt Line Ceremony

2006-10-14T10:00:39Z

Maserati1945: new entry

A [[Colonial]] military ceremony, typically taking place before the start of a major battle. A line of table salt is placed on the ground between two rows of soldiers. A passage of scripture is read, and the two rows converge, spreading the salt line with their feet.

One such ceremony was conducted by Lt. Margaret "[[Racetrack]]" Edmondson on the hangar deck of the [[Battlestar Galactica]] before the start of the mission to rescue the Colonials remaining on [[New Caprica]] under the [[Cylon]] occupation. The extremely emotional ceremony ended with an embrace by [[Galactica]] and [[Pegasus]] crewmen who knew they might never see each other again. ([[Exodus, Part I]])

Salt Line Ceremony

2006-10-14T10:00:13Z

Maserati1945: new entry

A [[Colonial]] military ceremony, typically taking place before the start of a major battle. A line of table salt is placed on the ground between two rows of soldiers. A passage of scripture is read, and the two rows converge, spreading the salt line with their feet.

One such ceremony was conducted by Lt. Margaret "[[Racetrack]]" Edmondson on the hangar deck of the [[Battlestar Galactica]] before the start of the mission to rescue the Colonials remaining on [[New Caprica]] under the [[Cylon]] occupation. ([[Exodus, Part I]]) The extremely emotional ceremony ended with an embrace by [[Galactica]] and [[Pegasus]] crewmen who knew they might never see each other again.

Salt Line Ceremony

2006-10-14T09:57:54Z

Maserati1945: new entry

Salt Line Ceremony

2006-10-14T09:57:13Z

Maserati1945: new entry

A [[Colonial]] military ceremony taking place before the start of a major battle. A line of table salt is placed on the ground between two rows of soldiers. A passage of scripture is read, and the two rows converge, spreading the salt line with their feet.

One such ceremony was conducted by Lt. Margaret "[[Racetrack]]" Edmondson on the hangar deck of the [[Battlestar Galactica]] before the start of the mission to rescue the Colonials remaining on [[New Caprica]] under the [[Cylon]] occupation. ([[Exodus, Part I]])

The Hand of God (RDM)

2006-10-13T06:29:43Z

Maserati1945: /* Questions */

:''This article details an episode of the [[Re-imagined Series]]. For information on the [[Original Series]] episode of the same name, see [[The Hand of God (TOS)]].''

{{Episode Data
| image =HandofGod.jpg
| title=The Hand of God
| series=
| season=1
| episode=10
| guests=
| writer=[[David Weddle]] [[Bradley Thompson]]
| story=
| director=[[Jeff Woolnough]]
| production=110
| rating=
| US airdate=2005-03-11
| UK airdate=2005-01-03
| dvd= {{Season 1 NTSC DVD release date}} '''US''' {{Season 1 PAL DVD release date}} '''UK'''
| population=47,898
| prev=[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down|Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]
| next=[[Colonial Day]]
| podcast=Y
| podtitle=The Hand of God
}}

== Overview ==

: ''With the Fleet short of [[tylium|fuel]], ''[[Galactica]]'' launches a daring attack on a Cylon base.''

== Summary ==
* [[The Fleet (RDM)|The Fleet]] is almost out of fuel, and ''[[Galactica]]'' has [[Raptor|Raptors]] out scouting nearby star systems to find tylium ore - if they don't, the fleet can make two more [[FTL|Jumps]] at best
* Aboard one of the Raptors, [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer]] and [[Crashdown]] find an asteroid filled with years worth of tylium ore — unfortunately, the Cylons found it first and have built a [[Cylon Refinery|refinery base]] on it.
* Faced with hoping to locate tylium elsewhere using their remaining supplies of fuel, or taking the asteroid from the Cylons, [[William Adama|Adama]] opts to attack the asteroid to take the tylium from the Cylons.
* On ''[[Colonial One]]'', [[Laura Roslin]] reveals she is being affected by taking [[Chamalla]] extract to [[Elosha]], having prescient visions – her dreams about [[Leoben Conoy]] which occurred immediately before he was found on the ''[[Gemenon Traveler]]'' ([[Flesh and Bone]]), and her hallucination about snakes
* On hearing about the snakes, Elosha reveals that it matches a prophecy in an ancient text written by [[Pythia]] 3,600 years ago concerning the exodus of humankind, which foretells that a dying Leader will lead the remnants of humanity to the promised land of Earth.
* Colonel [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] and [[Lee Adama|Apollo]] draw up an initial plan to take the asteroid, but Commander Adama decides to turn to [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] to come up with an unconventional idea to accomplish the mission, as she has a penchant for thinking "outside the box", and as machines the Cylons tend to predict more logical plans.
* Plans are drawn up for the attack on the Cylon base on the asteroid, and [[Gaius Baltar]] is involved in preparations when Starbuck and Tigh show him recon photos of the refinery. They cannot simply nuke the base, as the radiation would render the tylium inert, so the best plan would be to destroy the containers holding the volatile unrefined tylium precursor. Tigh and Starbuck want Baltar to point out what it is, even though he has no idea what it looks like. In his mind, Baltar asks his virtual Number Six for help, but she tells him it is in God's hands and He will "tell" Baltar where to point. Baltar picks an object in the base, simply as a wild guess (though he doesn't tell the others that). Baltar is terrified, telling Six he didn't hear God's voice, but she reassures him that "God doesn't always speak in ''words''".
* Apollo is concerned that everyone thinks Starbuck is a better pilot than he is and would be better leading the mission. Starbuck cannot fly in the attack, because in the [[Weight Room|weight room]] Commander Adama demonstrates that her knee has not yet fully recovered from its [[You Can't Go Home Again|injury]]. On the hangar deck, Commander Adama encourages Apollo, telling him he thinks Apollo really can pull off this mission, because he is his son.
* The attack is launched, and [[Battle for the Tylium Asteroid|the battle]] commences: civilian mining ships Jump in on one side of the Cylon base pretending to be on a survey mission, drawing off some Raiders from the base, while ''Galactica'' jumps in on the other side and launches a squadron of Vipers against it, which are confronted by the base's reserve Raiders. The Raiders sent against the mining ships peel off and advance with the others on ''Galactica''. Everything seems to be going wrong, but then Adama reveals that this was a feint: doesn’t trust anyone other than his immediate officers with the full details of the action, not even Roslin, because he knows there are Cylon infiltrators in the Fleet.
*A second squadron of Vipers, led by Apollo, are hidden inside of the mining ships: instead of a feint, the mining ships were the thrust of the real attack. All of the Raiders were lured away to advance on ''Galactica'', so they proceed to the base unmolested. However, things are far from easy: the Cylon base has a formidable Anti-Air defense system, and the Vipers' missle attack fails as the Cylons are jamming their missiles' tracking systems.
*In a move of reckless improvisation worthy of Starbuck, Apollo avoids the Cylon defense grid by flying through its tylium mining tunnels to the center of the base, then dropping a pair of explosive charges at the supposed tylium-precursor container.
*Much to Baltar's surprise, his wild guess at which container held the volatile tylium-precursor was correct: as Apollo flies away, the entire base explodes with the force of a 3 kiloton nuclear warhead.
*With their base destroyed, the Cylon Raiders go into a panic and are easy prey for ''Galactica''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s Vipers to mop up. All planes return to ''Galactica'' in a moment of celebration. Civilian mining ships will be able to get enough tylium fuel from the asteroid to last the Fleet several years.
*In Baltar's dream world, he expresses his astonishment to Number Six: Baltar "realizes" that the only "logical" explanation is that God truly did guide his hand to the right point on the Cylon base. The originally atheist Baltar now accepts the possibility that he might truly be an instrument of God...

[[Image:bsg-1-10.jpg|thumb|Adama and staff plan the attack.]]
=== On Caprica: ===
*[[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Valerii]] are hiding-out on a farm on their way to [[Delphi]].
*When Helo offers to prepare a meal, Valerii is uncharacteristically sick, leading them to try and settle down for some sleep.
*They are interrupted by the arrival of a troop of [[Cylon Centurion]]s - lead by another copy of Number Six.
*Forcing a stunned Helo into action - he cannot believe the woman he saw Sharon kill is coming after them - Sharon forces him back on the run.

== Questions ==

* Why did [[William Adama|Commander Adama]] order the fighters to pursue the fleeing [[Cylon Raiders]], instead of securing the area? One possibility for attacking the remaining fighters to prevent them from getting reinforcements from a distant [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]]. ''(Although Adama will not have discovered this until later episodes, Raiders have the ability to make a jump ''much'' farther than any Colonial vessel.)''
* How many Vipers does ''Galactica'' actually have? Do they have a contingency plan should the majority (or all) of the Vipers be destroyed? Or are they simply fraked? (See [[Galactica (RDM)#Running Tallies|this article for a running tally by episode to-date]])
* Are the Colonials able to build ships, such as [[Viper (RDM)|Vipers]], from scratch? Or can they take destroyed hulks and rebuild off them? (Answer: Vipers are frequently salvaged, but only to a point. [[Flight of the Phoenix|Yes, they can build from scratch]], although the result [[Blackbird|may not be a Viper]]. However, [[Pegasus (RDM)|''Pegasus'']] is able to build Vipers from scratch, when she has the raw materials (metal ore, etc) to do so. ([[Scar]]))
* How exactly can a 3,600 year old text foretell the exodus of humanity, and the leadership of [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]]? ([[Sacred Scrolls|Answer]].)
* Does someone have time on their hands to build miniatures of the ''new'' Cylon Raiders for the [[Situation Room]]!?
* If [[Gaius Baltar]] read the Sacred Scrolls in "... the 6th grade", why, in spite of being the former Secretary of Education, doesn't [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]] know who [[Pythia]] is? Possibly it is because Gaius Baltar is a genius and he was reading very advanced material in the 6th grade, and Laura Roslin wasn't very religious prior to becoming president.
**Answer: According to RDM, the Sacred Scrolls are much like modern Earth religions, i.e. the vast majority of the general populace often knows many often-quoted phrases and the general philosophy of a religion, but that doesn't mean every person is a theology scholar. Also, like Earth different sections of the Twelve Colonies are more religious than others. [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], for example, is quite secular in regards to religion, while [[Gemenon]] is religiously fundamentalist, believing in the literal truth of the Sacred Scrolls.
*Is Baltar truly an instrument of "God"?

== Analysis ==
*The introduction of the prophesy of [[Pythia]] further link the series' mythology to the ancient Greece of our own planet. In Greek mythology, the Pythia was the priestess at Apollo's oracle in Delphi. The name itself comes from Python, the dragon slain by Apollo. The Pythia operated as a vehicle for Apollo's will to be known to those on earth. A believer would make a sacrifice and present a question to a priest. The priest would then present the question to the Pythia. The Pythia sat on a bronze tripod in the adytum, or inner chamber of Apollo's temple. In this sacred chamber the spirit of Apollo overcame the Pythia and inspired the prophecy.
**Pythia in ancient Greece was the Oracle of Delphi – and on Caprica, Helo and Sharon are making for the religious center of Delphi.
*Following his seeking God’s forgiveness ([[33]]) and his repentance of his sins ([[Six Degrees of Separation]]), Baltar finally becomes God’s "instrument". He literally becomes the hand of God referenced in the episode title: he is the one that points out the target that will destroy the Cylon base.
*Over the last few weeks, we’ve seen Baltar move through the five emotional states that tend to guide our reactions to a new "truth" we’d rather not face:
**Denial (dismissing the "disappearance" of the ''Olympic Carrier'' after the call from Dr. Amorak as anything more than a serendipitous event - [[33]])
**Anger (his outright hostility towards Six as she continues to "bore" him with talk of God - [[Six Degrees of Separation]])
**Bargaining (praying to God for his safety in return for his obedience - [[Six Degrees of Separation]])
**Depression (leaving the Situation Room without having "heard" God’s voice & facing up to the fact that he had to – again - lie)
**Acceptance his messianic response to Six’s coaxing at the end of this episode.
*Did the Cylons ''allow'' the Colonials to find an asteroid filled with fuel?
**Executive producer [[Ron Moore]] has stated numerous times that the Cylons are not letting the Fleet escape, but are actively trying to destroy it.

== Notes ==
*Nine days have passed since the events of "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]".
*The celtic victory music played at the end of the episode after the Cylon base is destroyed is titled "Wander My Friends", written and composed by [[Bear McCreary]]. The lyrics and translation for the song given in the liner notes for the Season 1 soundtrack are reposted [[Soundtrack (Season 1)#Lyrics and Translations|on this page]], with permission.
*Tylium ore is use to power FTL systems, but probably not through any fissionable reaction.
*Tylium has an energy density of about 5e14 J/kg, comparable to that of nuclear fusion.
*Cylon technology is clearly a Colonial off-shoot, as one would expect: from the use of tylium down to the shape of doorways.
*William Adama’s father was Joseph Adama.
*Sharon Valerii on Caprica may well be pregnant.
*Lt. Gaeta makes mention in passing conversation to Apollo that the Colonials actually know where the [[Cylon homeworld]] is ("they'd build a refinery this far from their homeworld?" "Why not? They need fuel out here just as much as we do").
*There is an ancient text some 3,600 years old foretelling humanity’s flight – and apparently, Roslin’s leadership.
*Mark II Vipers can carry both missiles and munitions pods (bombs).
*The Mark VII Vipers all appear to be out of commission - even Apollo is now regularly flying a Mk II.
*Based on the conversation between Commander Adama and Starbuck in the gym, it appears that Mark II Viper thruster pedals use a mechanical flight control system rather than a "fly-by-wire" linkage. This fits the concept of minimizing the use of computers mentioned in the [[miniseries]].
*The religious overtones to the human / Cylon struggle are becoming more pronounced, with a now-promised confrontation due at the "home of the Gods".
*The Colonial fleet has a tylium refinery ship among its number.
*With the capture of the tylium mining facilities on the asteroid, the Colonials should be able to gather enough tylium to keep them going for about 2 years – assuming they can shift that much tylium to their refinery ship before the Cylons return.
*A railway line can be seen below the balcony of Baltar's Caprica house at the end of the episode. Single track, mounted on apparently wooden (as oppsoed to conrete sleepers), on a bed of gravel, without any form of electrifcation (3rd rail or overhead wires).
*The title of this episode was also that of the 21st episode of the original series. Aside from both Adamas launching an offensive strike against Cylon forces, there is little comparison between the two episodes. The writers of the Re-imagined Series episode claimed that the naming of their episode and the offensive attack plans were coincidental; they weren't aware of this Original Series episode.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

*''Lee Adama sits with a battered Viper before the mission. He is joined by his father, who after a short conversation, Adama hands Lee a lighter:''
:'''Commander Adama:''' It belonged to your grandfather. My mother bought it for him when he was in law school. See the engraving on it?
:'''Lee Adama:''' (reading the name "Joseph Adama") Yes I...can barely make it out...
:'''Commander Adama:''' He was a better father than I was. Dad used to carry that into court cases. He claimed he never lost unless he left it behind.
:'''Lee Adama:''' So you’re worried too.
:'''Commander Adama:''' About what?
:'''Lee Adama:''' Sometimes it feels like the whole ship thinks...Starbuck...would do better.
:'''Commander Adama:''' I don’t.
:'''Lee Adama:''' How can you be so sure?
:'''Commander Adama:''' Because you’re my son.

*''Commander Adama asks Starbuck to assist with developing a plan to attack the refinery:''
:'''Commander Adama:''' Captain Adama and Colonel Tigh are working on the plan now and I need some serious "out-of -the-box" thinking.
:'''Starbuck:''' "Out-of-the-box" is where I live.

*''During the briefing with Apollo, Tigh, Starbuck, Adama, and Roslin.''
:'''Commander Adama:''' Sometimes, you have to roll the hard six.

== Official Statements ==




== Guest stars ==
*[[Michael Hogan]] as Colonel [[Saul Tigh]]
*[[Aaron Douglas]] as Chief Petty Officer [[Galen Tyrol]]
*[[Tahmoh Penikett]] as Lt. [[Karl Agathon|Karl "Helo" Agathon]]
*[[Kandyse McClure]] as Petty Officer Anastasia Dualla
*[[Paul Campbell]] as Billy Keikeya
*[[Sam Witwer]] as Lt. Crashdown
*[[Lorena Gale]] as [[Elosha]]
*[[Nicki Clyne]] as Specialist [[Cally]]
*[[imdb:nm1750308|Cailin Stadnyk]] as Ensign [[Davis]]
*[[Bodie Olmos]] as Lt. [[Brendan Constanza|Brendan "Hot Dog" Constanza]]
*[[Lucianna Carro]] as Lt. [[Louanne Katraine|Louanne "Kat" Katraine]]
*[[imdb:nm0155389|Terry Chen]] as [[Perry|"Chuckles" Perry]]
*[[imdb:nm1775193|Christina Schild]] as [[Playa Palacios]]
*[[Biski Gugushe]] as [[Sekou Hamilton]]
*[[imdb:nm1544128|Paul Cummings]] as [[Fireball]]
*[[imdb:nm0837992|Camille Sullivan]] as [[Stepchild]]

== External Links ==
[http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season01/110/ "The Hand of God"] at scifi.com

{{episode list (RDM season 1)}}

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)|Hand of God, The]]
[[Category:RDM]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Bradley Thompson]]
[[Category:Episodes written by David Weddle]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Jeff Woolnough]]

[[es:La Mano de Dios]]

User:Maserati1945

2006-10-10T02:42:11Z

Maserati1945:

I used to watch Battlstar Galactica(TOS) from time to time. I've been a fan of Battlestar Galactica(RDM) since the premiere of the miniseries in 2003. It is the greatest show on television in my humble opinion.

User:Maserati1945

2006-10-10T02:37:57Z

Maserati1945:

I've been a fan of the show since the premiere of the miniseries in 2003. Battlestar is the greatest show on television in my humble opinion.

Saul Tigh

2006-10-09T20:16:31Z

Maserati1945: /* Occupation and Resistance */

{{Character Data
|photo= Bsg-tigh-1.jpg
|age= 70
|colony= Aerelon
|birthname= Saul Tigh
|callsign=
|seen= Miniseries
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|children= None
|marital status=Married to [[Ellen Tigh]]
|role= Civilian Formerly Executive Officer, ''[[Battlestar]] [[Galactica]]''
|rank= None (formerly colonel)
|actor= [[Michael Hogan]]
|cylon=
|name=
}}

== Biography ==

=== Background ===

'''Colonel Saul Tigh''' was born on the colony of [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]].<ref name="aerelon">"Cylon Intelligence Report: Personnel File: Saul Tigh." Battlestar Galactica: The Official Magazine. Feb./Mar. 2006: 62.</ref> A veteran of the Cylon War, Saul Tigh is sometimes estranged from his wife and has been somewhat disillusioned with his career, seeking refuge in alcoholism - a move which has lead many in the crew to view him with contempt ([[Miniseries]]; "[[33]]").

He is a third generation Colonial soldier. [[Saul Tigh (father of)|His father]] was a decorated fighter pilot killed in combat and [[Saul Tigh (grandfather of)|his grandfather]] served under President [[Mueller (president)|Mueller]]. According to [[Billy Keikeya]], Tigh was a published military historian until personal problems became apparent ([[Miniseries]], [[List of Deleted Scenes (RDM)|deleted scene]]).

Tigh began his career as a deckhand<ref name="deckhand">''Ibid''. "Saul Tigh entered the fleet as a deckhand but rose through the ranks and was a CPO (Chief Petty Officer) by the time the First Cylon War broke out."</ref>. By the second year of the first [[Cylon War]], he was serving as a gunner's mate onboard the ''[[Brenik]]''. His ship was boarded by the Cylons where he and others fought in hand to hand combat, during the bloodiest time of that war. It was during this battle that he saw his first dead man, [[Duncan Rafferty]], who was violently vivisected by Centurions ([http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/202/deleted1.html deleted scene], [[Valley of Darkness]]). His ship was subsequently destroyed and he survived. He was transferred to another unnamed ship, which succumbed to a similar fate as his original ship. Having born witness to many a bloody combat, he became emotionally scarred, which had, among other impetuses, led him to alcoholism.
[[Image:Tighadama.jpg|Tigh and Adama's first meeting.|left|thumb]]

Tigh eventually achieved the rank of Chief Petty Officer ([[Galen Tyrol]]'s position on ''Galactica''). When Viper pilot numbers began running low in the war, Tigh was drafted into Colonial Officer Candidate School and was reassigned as a Viper pilot.<ref>{{cite rdm podcast|episode=Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down}}</ref> As a pilot, he demonstrated considerable skill, earning several medals while posted aboard the battlestar ''[[Athena (Battlestar)|Athena]]''.<ref name="athena">''Ibid''. "Tigh joined the Colonial Officer Candidate School and was reassigned as a Viper pilot, something he excelled in, earning a string of medals in his post aboard the Battlestar Athena."</ref>

After the cessation of hostilities, he was dismissed from service and eked out an existence as a deckhand aboard a commercial freighter. Tigh clearly experienced signs of post-traumatic stress syndrome; he commented that everytime he smelled grease or machine oil he would nearly vomit, as this smell reminded him of the "stink" of Centurions ([[Valley of Darkness]], [[List of Deleted Scenes|deleted scene]]). While onboard, he drowned himself in alcohol and, after a time, encountered [[William Adama]], who had not seen as much combat experience as Tigh himself. They became fast friends, and remained in touch after Adama reenlisted with the service. Two years later<ref name="adama">''Ibid''. "Adama reenlisted with the service and Tigh spent two years drinking before Adama pulled strings to get him back into service. Saul Tigh was straightening his life out when he met his wife Ellen, who he courted and married within two months. Ellen did not take well to military life, and her repeated infidelities drove him back to drink. Ellen and Saul separated shortly before the Cylon attack."</ref>, he was able to pull strings to reenlist Tigh as well ([[Scattered]]).

Following his reenlistment Saul met his future wife Ellen, whom he courted and married after two months, about 7 years before the [[Miniseries]]. Unfortunately, Ellen did not take well to military life and her repeated infidelities drove Saul back into the bottle. The two separated shortly before the Cylon attack.<ref name="adama"/>

Following the Cylon attack, Tigh recovers some of his old verve and attempts to give up alcohol. However, this, combined with the initial stress of flight from the Cylons causes him to over-compensate as a martinet, frequently driving the personnel overly-hard, and berating where encouragement would prove the better option ([[33]]). He excuses this by using the truism that the XO is supposed to be the "hard face" of command.
[[image:33-Tigh_Adama.jpg|thumb|right|"If the crew doesn't hate the XO, then he's not doing his job."]]
With his drinking problem relatively under control, Tigh settled back into his role as the ''Galactica's'' Executive Officer and proved himself both honest and level-headed - if still hard on himself and others - in a number of circumstances, and he provided the kind of support [[William Adama|Adama]] needed.

During Cylon attacks, he proves himself to be an excellent battle manager and tactician. His quick actions sometimes save the ship and [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] from damage or destruction ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]], [[Scattered]], [[Valley of Darkness]]).

Tigh is uneasy around President [[Laura Roslin]] ([[Water]]), and resents what he sees as her interfering with Adama's command ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]) - something born out of his deep respect for Adama which even the most heated of disagreements between them ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]) cannot disrupt.

Tigh personally dislikes [[Kara Thrace]], one of ''Galactica's'' pilots and, while grudgingly conceding she is a fine pilot, does not understand what Adama sees in her ([[Miniseries]]). Tigh sees Thrace as an egotistical, insubordinate youngster. While they have tried to bury the hatchet between them ([[Miniseries]], [[Water]]), there is potentially too much water under the bridge now for them to get completely past their differences.

Outside of Adama, Tigh has few others he regards as confidants aboard ship; and since the initial Cylon attack, he withdraws from interacting with the crew during off-duty hours, making him perhaps more isolated than even Adama - who is at least held in awe and respect by the crew.

=== Wife's Return ===
[[image:Tigh_Me_Up_Tigh_Me_Down-Saul_Ellen.jpg|thumb|left|'''Saul''' and his newly returned wife, [[Ellen Tigh|Ellen]], making a toast: "To starting over" ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]).]]
Some three weeks after the Cylon attack on the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]], Tigh is stunned to discover his wife, [[Ellen Tigh|Ellen]], has not been killed as he had thought, but was rescued from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], and carried aboard the ''[[Rising Star (RDM)|Rising Star]]'' as an unconscious "Jane Doe". Whether this reunion will be for his betterment or not remains to be seen.

Despite the emotional implications from the destruction of the Colonies and life aboard the ship, Tigh is reluctantly thrust further into politics as his wife plays her schemes. Much to his disdain, his wife attempts to procure photo opportunities with the likes of [[Tom Zarek]] -- a person Tigh views with the utmost contempt ([[Colonial Day]]). Additionally, Ellen seems to re-establish Saul Tigh's alcoholism with gratuitous drinking.

Despite this, Adama sends Tigh with a squadron of [[Colonial Marine Corps|marines]] to arrest [[Laura Roslin]] after Adama discovers that she convinced [[Kara Thrace]] to [[FTL|Jump]] back to [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] to retrieve a historical artifact called the [[Arrow of Apollo]] from the Delphi Museum. This action deprives the Fleet of a crucial military asset -- a captured [[Cylon Raider]], intended to have been used to plant a nuclear warhead aboard a basestar in orbit around the planet believed to be [[Kobol]] -- and convinces Adama that Roslin is abusing her authority.

Onboard ''[[Colonial One]]'', Tigh's men and Roslin's [[Presidential Security Service|personal security agents]] are at a standoff when [[Lee Adama]] aims a weapon at Tigh's head and attempts to thwart the arrest. Attempting to defuse the situation, Roslin agrees to be arrested and Lee Adama is arrested on charges of treason ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]).

=== Tigh in Command ===
[[Image:Scattered-Tigh.jpg|thumb|right|Tigh realizing he's in a bit over his head ([[Scattered]]).]]
Tigh is present in [[CIC]] during the attempted assassination of Adama by [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]]. As guards restrain Valerii, Tigh attempts to stop the bleeding from the torso gunshot wounds Adama sustained in the attempt ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). Needing reliable officers, Tigh grants Lee Adama a parole from his arrest. After his daily duties as [[CAG]] are done, Lee promises to return to the brig when off-shift.

With Adama incapacitated and with Roslin dethroned, Tigh tries to maintain order. However, his irrational and gruff command style displeases many crewmembers. Morale and ship efficiency began to suffer. Ellen Tigh becomes a private advisor to her husband, frequently questioning his power to command while also suggesting ways of usurping more power and quashing his opponents. Ellen Tigh's advice only exacerbates an already-deteriorating situation.

Tigh's interrogation of suspected Cylon collaborators or infiltrators is brutal. After beating, then nearly shooting the ''Galactica'' copy of Valerii, other issues in the Fleet divert him from further interrogation. He orders a special cage made for her for later interrogation. Tigh also savagely interrogates Valerii's former lover, Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] as a possible [[Cylon agent]] himself. Tigh would have left him with Valerii in the newly built Cylon cage if [[Gaius Baltar]] did not intervene to prove medically that Tyrol is not a Cylon himself.

With Roslin in prison, uprisings begin as civilian ships refuse to supply ''Galactica'' until Roslin is released. Worse, the [[Quorum of Twelve]] demand to see Roslin. Knowing of Roslin's hallucinations in the brig, he intentionally invites the Quorum to see Roslin in her poor state in hopes of disillusioning the Quorum. However, Roslin recovers sufficiently from her [[Chamalla]] withdrawal after getting a supply smuggled to her by Corporal [[Venner]], her guard. Tigh, a secular man, believes that the accounts within the [[Sacred Scrolls]] weren't to be believed, and teases Roslin in front of the Quorum on her visions. Roslin not only is able to speak to the Quorum, but decisively reinforces her decisions as well as her role in the search for the location of Earth as told in the Pythian prophesies. This act greatly impresses the dominantly religious-minded Quorum, and infuriates Tigh; fearing a larger civilan government uprising led by the Quorum. Tigh institutes [[Wikipedia:martial law|martial law]] throughout the Fleet in an attempt to maintain order in a rapidly chaotic shuffle of power between the civilian and military governments ([[Fragged]]).

The supply situation leads Tigh to a poor decision of using Viper pilots to command marines in forcibly retrieving supplies. On [[Gideon|one ship]], a riot leads to four deaths and many injuries due to the pilot's inexperience in managing such a situation. Unlike Adama (who likely would have taken direct responsibility for the "Gideon Massacre"), Tigh places blame solely on the pilot, absolving himself from the incident.

=== Fleet Factioning and Adama's Return ===

The shootings, Tigh's decision for martial law, and his unwillingness to discuss anything with anyone except Ellen Tigh (and the unconscious Adama) becomes the dividing point of those wanting to press on to finding Earth, and those wanting to settle on Kobol ([[Season 2 (2005-06)|Season 2]]). Tigh's drinking spirals further out of control, leading to more erratic behavior and causing great concern regarding his ability to effectively command, particularly among the [[CIC]] staff. The situation comes to a head when Roslin, tacitly aided by other officers and crew on ''Galactica'', escapes the brig in an attempt to hide amongst the many ships in the Fleet with the aid of [[Tom Zarek]]. Tigh chases down the escaping Raptor using the [[CAP]], having the Viper fire across the bow of the fleeing Raptor to persuade it to return. The Raptor brazenly continues onward, leading to a crucial decision for the Colonel. Tigh allows the Raptor to escape rather than shooting it down, which would have killed Adama's son and the President and could have destabilized the fleet.
[[image:Flight_of_the_Phoenix-Tigh_Adama.jpg|thumb|left|Tigh and Adama share a knowing smirk at the commissioning of the [[Blackbird]], ''Laura'' ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).]]

Fortunately for the fleet and Colonel Tigh, Commander Adama regains consciousness shortly after the escape and asks what had happened during his absence. Tigh confesses that he has "frakked things up good," but Adama reassures his friend, saying, "I never had much use for people that second-guessed my decisions, especially if they've never held a command. They don't understand the pressure to make a call that affects the lives of thousands, and you have no one to turn to for backup."

Despite all the serious problems that Tigh created, Adama doesn't blame him, telling Tigh that whatever bad calls were made, they would pick up the pieces together ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]).

Both Adama (also a rather secular man) and Tigh are astounded at the number of ships that secede from the main fleet to join the [[Laura Roslin faction|faction]] that sought the [[Tomb of Athena]] with President Roslin ([[The Farm]]). Tigh backs up Adama while he maintains a similar official position on Roslin and the separated ships as Tigh has. However, after Adama realizes that survival of the entire Fleet would only come if everyone held together, Adama begins to prepare a journey to Kobol to retrieve the remainder of the Fleet and reach out to Roslin ([[Home, Part I]]). At first Tigh seems to believe that Adama is retrieving the faction by more military means, and scoffs at Roslin's religious views on the quest until he realizes that Adama is beginning to follow Roslin's information, taking her reports and visions seriously. Tigh is left in command while Adama successfully reunites the Fleet and reconciles with Roslin ([[Home, Part II]]).

=== Fallout from [[Gideon|the Gideon Incident]] ===

''Galactica'''s crew never liked Tigh, and Tigh never asked for their love. Still, the ''Gideon'' Incident was possibly the last straw for many in CIC to lose their trust. Aiding President [[Laura Roslin]]'s escape is one example to that ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]).

After [[William Adama|Adama]] returned to command and Roslin restored to presidency, for a moment the incident was almost forgotten. Before she was invited to ''Galactica'', reporter [[D'anna Biers]] was preparing a story about the incident, which would destroy public's view towards Tigh, and eventually the ''Galactica''. However she dropped the subject in favor of a ''Galactica'' documentary.

Lt. [[Joe Palladino|Joe "Hammerhead" Palladino]], the pilot in charge of the boarding operation to ''Gideon'', eventually lost his temper, presumebly due to D'anna Biers' provocative interview style. He first vandalized Tigh's quarters, then tried to sabotage his [[Raptor]], and finally attacked his wife at the gun point and threatened to kill Tigh. Still, Tigh managed to convince Palladino to drop his weapon, before the room was raided by commandos. This incident was also video taped by Biers' crew, but as far as shown the documentary doesn't mention the ''Gideon'' Incident at all ([[Final Cut]]).

Even though Tigh did his best to evade responsibility of this incident, it is possible to see that his temper and attitude has somehow changed after the command fiasco, like helping [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] with [[Blackbird]] ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).

=== ''Pegasus'' Discovered ===

Things once again turn on their head when ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' has a chance encounter with the Battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', a modern type of Battlestar and the flagship of Admiral [[Helena Cain]]. Cain, being the superior officer, assumes complete command of the Fleet. The naturally suspicious Tigh is wary about this mixed blessing, but takes it in stride like everything else up until now. When he begins to regularly speak with ''Pegasus''’s own XO [[Jack Fisk]], his suspicions slowly prove to be well founded.

Fisk's conscience-clearing sessions with Tigh reveal that Admiral Cain was responsible for a set of atrocities, the most damning being the pillaging and stranding of a small civilian fleet in open space. When Tigh relays this information to Commander Adama, Adama reminisces about their own questionable activities, particularly their actions regarding the ''[[Olympic Carrier]]''. However, Adama keeps Tigh's warnings in mind and they help him in his decision to stand up to Cain later on ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]] through [[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]).

=== The Election and New Caprica ===
When the Presidential election arrives, Col. Tigh is charged with overseeing the vote tallies on ''Galactica''. When it appears that [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] would win the vote, [[Tory Foster]], President Roslin's aide, approaches Col. Tigh and Petty Officer [[Dualla]] to conspire to steal the election for Roslin, forseeing certain dissaster in a Baltar presidencey. Tigh, never a fan of Baltar's to begin with, assists in the deception in order to keep Baltar out of office. The plot is overturned when Lt. [[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]] later notices the Colonel's suspicious and stand-offish behaviour regarding the ballot boxes. Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] lets Tigh and Dualla off the hook and the official vote tallies are "revised" without the public learning of the Roslin campaign's attempt to steal the election.

One year later, after the fleet settles on [[New Caprica]] on the orders of President Baltar, most of the military staff have all but retired from active service. Col. Tigh is one of the few officers still serving aboard ''Galactica'', but the day eventually comes when Admiral Adama discharges his friend and XO from his duties to let him return to civilian life with his wife. On the surface of New Caprica, now-Mr. and Mrs. Tigh run into [[Kara Thrace]] at [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] and [[Cally]]'s union rally. The former colonel and captain share an unusually warm embrace, having put their differences behind them at some point in the preceding year, or Thrace being happy to see a familiar face of the ''Galactica'' family. Unfortunately, their reunion does not last as a large Cylon fleet appears in orbit over the planet and the Cylons occupy New Caprica without firing a shot. Tigh and his wife are last seen watching in utter shock as [[Cylon Centurion]]s march through the streets of New Caprica City ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).
=== Occupation and Resistance ===
Two months into the occupation of New Caprica by the Cylons, Saul Tigh is organizing and recruiting for [[New Caprica Resistance|the resistance on New Caprica]] along with [[Galen Tyrol]] and [[Jammer]]. When the Cylons begin to find the weapons hidden by the Resistance, Tigh orders them to be stored in the Temple, believing it to be the safest place as the Cylon respect the sanctity of the Temple and will not search it. When the Cylons discover the weapons, [[Nora]] is shot and [[Cally Tyrol]] and her baby barely escape. This leads several members of the [[New Caprica Resistance]] to question whether Tigh is going too far. The Cylons later imprison Tigh and physically tear his right eye out. He is badly beaten and put into a small holding cell. Ellen Tigh's sexual efforts with [[Cavil]] lead to Saul's eventual release ([[Occupation]]).

==Notes==
* Tigh's first name has been given as "Paul" on a number of websites. This is based on an early [http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/battlestar/season1/galactica-ms1.pdf version of the script] '''(PDF file)''', which has Adama speaking to "Paul" in their discussion of his fight with Kara Thrace. Since this version of the script has significant differences to the final script, its canonical value is low.
* [[Ronald D. Moore]] has indicated via the [[podcast]] commentary on the episode "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]" that the character's name initially was Paul Tigh. The name, however, had to be changed due to legal issues that Moore was unable to recall in that podcast.
* Tigh is based off the character of Paul Eddington in the movie "[[Wikipedia:In Harm's Way|In Harm's Way]]" portrayed by Kirk Douglas (with John Wayne).
* Tigh's age is one of the only ones which can be accurately deduced. In a [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/202/deleted1.html deleted scene] from [[Valley of Darkness]], we learn that he was serving on the [[Brenik]] when it was boarded during the second year of the Cylon War. Tigh tells us that he was 19, "just a kid. Virgin. Teenager." We know that [[Colonial Day (holiday)|Colonial Day]] is the anniversary of both the unification of the Colonies, and (roughly) the outbreak of the Cylon War (Source: [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/04/index.html#a000025 RDM, April 11, 2005]), and was 52 years ago ([[Colonial Day]]). Thus, Saul Tigh 51+19 = 70 years old in Season 1.
* In the DVD commentary of "[[Act of Contrition]]", Ron Moore notes that actor [[Michael Hogan]] won the role of Tigh over [[Donnelly Rhodes]], who was one of two other actors vying for the part. Rhodes however went on to play the role of [[Cottle|Dr. Cottle]], ''Galactica'''s CMO.

{{start box}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown)''|title=Executive Officer of the [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''|after=[[Karl Agathon]]}}
{{end box}}

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:Characters|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:Characters (RDM)|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:RDM|Tigh, Saul]]

Saul Tigh

2006-10-09T20:01:59Z

Maserati1945: /* Occupation and Resistance */ more additions

{{Character Data
|photo= Bsg-tigh-1.jpg
|age= 70
|colony= Aerelon
|birthname= Saul Tigh
|callsign=
|seen= Miniseries
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|children= None
|marital status=Married to [[Ellen Tigh]]
|role= Civilian Formerly Executive Officer, ''[[Battlestar]] [[Galactica]]''
|rank= None (formerly colonel)
|actor= [[Michael Hogan]]
|cylon=
|name=
}}

== Biography ==

=== Background ===

'''Colonel Saul Tigh''' was born on the colony of [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]].<ref name="aerelon">"Cylon Intelligence Report: Personnel File: Saul Tigh." Battlestar Galactica: The Official Magazine. Feb./Mar. 2006: 62.</ref> A veteran of the Cylon War, Saul Tigh is sometimes estranged from his wife and has been somewhat disillusioned with his career, seeking refuge in alcoholism - a move which has lead many in the crew to view him with contempt ([[Miniseries]]; "[[33]]").

He is a third generation Colonial soldier. [[Saul Tigh (father of)|His father]] was a decorated fighter pilot killed in combat and [[Saul Tigh (grandfather of)|his grandfather]] served under President [[Mueller (president)|Mueller]]. According to [[Billy Keikeya]], Tigh was a published military historian until personal problems became apparent ([[Miniseries]], [[List of Deleted Scenes (RDM)|deleted scene]]).

Tigh began his career as a deckhand<ref name="deckhand">''Ibid''. "Saul Tigh entered the fleet as a deckhand but rose through the ranks and was a CPO (Chief Petty Officer) by the time the First Cylon War broke out."</ref>. By the second year of the first [[Cylon War]], he was serving as a gunner's mate onboard the ''[[Brenik]]''. His ship was boarded by the Cylons where he and others fought in hand to hand combat, during the bloodiest time of that war. It was during this battle that he saw his first dead man, [[Duncan Rafferty]], who was violently vivisected by Centurions ([http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/202/deleted1.html deleted scene], [[Valley of Darkness]]). His ship was subsequently destroyed and he survived. He was transferred to another unnamed ship, which succumbed to a similar fate as his original ship. Having born witness to many a bloody combat, he became emotionally scarred, which had, among other impetuses, led him to alcoholism.
[[Image:Tighadama.jpg|Tigh and Adama's first meeting.|left|thumb]]

Tigh eventually achieved the rank of Chief Petty Officer ([[Galen Tyrol]]'s position on ''Galactica''). When Viper pilot numbers began running low in the war, Tigh was drafted into Colonial Officer Candidate School and was reassigned as a Viper pilot.<ref>{{cite rdm podcast|episode=Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down}}</ref> As a pilot, he demonstrated considerable skill, earning several medals while posted aboard the battlestar ''[[Athena (Battlestar)|Athena]]''.<ref name="athena">''Ibid''. "Tigh joined the Colonial Officer Candidate School and was reassigned as a Viper pilot, something he excelled in, earning a string of medals in his post aboard the Battlestar Athena."</ref>

After the cessation of hostilities, he was dismissed from service and eked out an existence as a deckhand aboard a commercial freighter. Tigh clearly experienced signs of post-traumatic stress syndrome; he commented that everytime he smelled grease or machine oil he would nearly vomit, as this smell reminded him of the "stink" of Centurions ([[Valley of Darkness]], [[List of Deleted Scenes|deleted scene]]). While onboard, he drowned himself in alcohol and, after a time, encountered [[William Adama]], who had not seen as much combat experience as Tigh himself. They became fast friends, and remained in touch after Adama reenlisted with the service. Two years later<ref name="adama">''Ibid''. "Adama reenlisted with the service and Tigh spent two years drinking before Adama pulled strings to get him back into service. Saul Tigh was straightening his life out when he met his wife Ellen, who he courted and married within two months. Ellen did not take well to military life, and her repeated infidelities drove him back to drink. Ellen and Saul separated shortly before the Cylon attack."</ref>, he was able to pull strings to reenlist Tigh as well ([[Scattered]]).

Following his reenlistment Saul met his future wife Ellen, whom he courted and married after two months, about 7 years before the [[Miniseries]]. Unfortunately, Ellen did not take well to military life and her repeated infidelities drove Saul back into the bottle. The two separated shortly before the Cylon attack.<ref name="adama"/>

Following the Cylon attack, Tigh recovers some of his old verve and attempts to give up alcohol. However, this, combined with the initial stress of flight from the Cylons causes him to over-compensate as a martinet, frequently driving the personnel overly-hard, and berating where encouragement would prove the better option ([[33]]). He excuses this by using the truism that the XO is supposed to be the "hard face" of command.
[[image:33-Tigh_Adama.jpg|thumb|right|"If the crew doesn't hate the XO, then he's not doing his job."]]
With his drinking problem relatively under control, Tigh settled back into his role as the ''Galactica's'' Executive Officer and proved himself both honest and level-headed - if still hard on himself and others - in a number of circumstances, and he provided the kind of support [[William Adama|Adama]] needed.

During Cylon attacks, he proves himself to be an excellent battle manager and tactician. His quick actions sometimes save the ship and [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] from damage or destruction ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]], [[Scattered]], [[Valley of Darkness]]).

Tigh is uneasy around President [[Laura Roslin]] ([[Water]]), and resents what he sees as her interfering with Adama's command ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]) - something born out of his deep respect for Adama which even the most heated of disagreements between them ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]) cannot disrupt.

Tigh personally dislikes [[Kara Thrace]], one of ''Galactica's'' pilots and, while grudgingly conceding she is a fine pilot, does not understand what Adama sees in her ([[Miniseries]]). Tigh sees Thrace as an egotistical, insubordinate youngster. While they have tried to bury the hatchet between them ([[Miniseries]], [[Water]]), there is potentially too much water under the bridge now for them to get completely past their differences.

Outside of Adama, Tigh has few others he regards as confidants aboard ship; and since the initial Cylon attack, he withdraws from interacting with the crew during off-duty hours, making him perhaps more isolated than even Adama - who is at least held in awe and respect by the crew.

=== Wife's Return ===
[[image:Tigh_Me_Up_Tigh_Me_Down-Saul_Ellen.jpg|thumb|left|'''Saul''' and his newly returned wife, [[Ellen Tigh|Ellen]], making a toast: "To starting over" ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]).]]
Some three weeks after the Cylon attack on the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]], Tigh is stunned to discover his wife, [[Ellen Tigh|Ellen]], has not been killed as he had thought, but was rescued from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], and carried aboard the ''[[Rising Star (RDM)|Rising Star]]'' as an unconscious "Jane Doe". Whether this reunion will be for his betterment or not remains to be seen.

Despite the emotional implications from the destruction of the Colonies and life aboard the ship, Tigh is reluctantly thrust further into politics as his wife plays her schemes. Much to his disdain, his wife attempts to procure photo opportunities with the likes of [[Tom Zarek]] -- a person Tigh views with the utmost contempt ([[Colonial Day]]). Additionally, Ellen seems to re-establish Saul Tigh's alcoholism with gratuitous drinking.

Despite this, Adama sends Tigh with a squadron of [[Colonial Marine Corps|marines]] to arrest [[Laura Roslin]] after Adama discovers that she convinced [[Kara Thrace]] to [[FTL|Jump]] back to [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] to retrieve a historical artifact called the [[Arrow of Apollo]] from the Delphi Museum. This action deprives the Fleet of a crucial military asset -- a captured [[Cylon Raider]], intended to have been used to plant a nuclear warhead aboard a basestar in orbit around the planet believed to be [[Kobol]] -- and convinces Adama that Roslin is abusing her authority.

Onboard ''[[Colonial One]]'', Tigh's men and Roslin's [[Presidential Security Service|personal security agents]] are at a standoff when [[Lee Adama]] aims a weapon at Tigh's head and attempts to thwart the arrest. Attempting to defuse the situation, Roslin agrees to be arrested and Lee Adama is arrested on charges of treason ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]).

=== Tigh in Command ===
[[Image:Scattered-Tigh.jpg|thumb|right|Tigh realizing he's in a bit over his head ([[Scattered]]).]]
Tigh is present in [[CIC]] during the attempted assassination of Adama by [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]]. As guards restrain Valerii, Tigh attempts to stop the bleeding from the torso gunshot wounds Adama sustained in the attempt ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). Needing reliable officers, Tigh grants Lee Adama a parole from his arrest. After his daily duties as [[CAG]] are done, Lee promises to return to the brig when off-shift.

With Adama incapacitated and with Roslin dethroned, Tigh tries to maintain order. However, his irrational and gruff command style displeases many crewmembers. Morale and ship efficiency began to suffer. Ellen Tigh becomes a private advisor to her husband, frequently questioning his power to command while also suggesting ways of usurping more power and quashing his opponents. Ellen Tigh's advice only exacerbates an already-deteriorating situation.

Tigh's interrogation of suspected Cylon collaborators or infiltrators is brutal. After beating, then nearly shooting the ''Galactica'' copy of Valerii, other issues in the Fleet divert him from further interrogation. He orders a special cage made for her for later interrogation. Tigh also savagely interrogates Valerii's former lover, Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] as a possible [[Cylon agent]] himself. Tigh would have left him with Valerii in the newly built Cylon cage if [[Gaius Baltar]] did not intervene to prove medically that Tyrol is not a Cylon himself.

With Roslin in prison, uprisings begin as civilian ships refuse to supply ''Galactica'' until Roslin is released. Worse, the [[Quorum of Twelve]] demand to see Roslin. Knowing of Roslin's hallucinations in the brig, he intentionally invites the Quorum to see Roslin in her poor state in hopes of disillusioning the Quorum. However, Roslin recovers sufficiently from her [[Chamalla]] withdrawal after getting a supply smuggled to her by Corporal [[Venner]], her guard. Tigh, a secular man, believes that the accounts within the [[Sacred Scrolls]] weren't to be believed, and teases Roslin in front of the Quorum on her visions. Roslin not only is able to speak to the Quorum, but decisively reinforces her decisions as well as her role in the search for the location of Earth as told in the Pythian prophesies. This act greatly impresses the dominantly religious-minded Quorum, and infuriates Tigh; fearing a larger civilan government uprising led by the Quorum. Tigh institutes [[Wikipedia:martial law|martial law]] throughout the Fleet in an attempt to maintain order in a rapidly chaotic shuffle of power between the civilian and military governments ([[Fragged]]).

The supply situation leads Tigh to a poor decision of using Viper pilots to command marines in forcibly retrieving supplies. On [[Gideon|one ship]], a riot leads to four deaths and many injuries due to the pilot's inexperience in managing such a situation. Unlike Adama (who likely would have taken direct responsibility for the "Gideon Massacre"), Tigh places blame solely on the pilot, absolving himself from the incident.

=== Fleet Factioning and Adama's Return ===

The shootings, Tigh's decision for martial law, and his unwillingness to discuss anything with anyone except Ellen Tigh (and the unconscious Adama) becomes the dividing point of those wanting to press on to finding Earth, and those wanting to settle on Kobol ([[Season 2 (2005-06)|Season 2]]). Tigh's drinking spirals further out of control, leading to more erratic behavior and causing great concern regarding his ability to effectively command, particularly among the [[CIC]] staff. The situation comes to a head when Roslin, tacitly aided by other officers and crew on ''Galactica'', escapes the brig in an attempt to hide amongst the many ships in the Fleet with the aid of [[Tom Zarek]]. Tigh chases down the escaping Raptor using the [[CAP]], having the Viper fire across the bow of the fleeing Raptor to persuade it to return. The Raptor brazenly continues onward, leading to a crucial decision for the Colonel. Tigh allows the Raptor to escape rather than shooting it down, which would have killed Adama's son and the President and could have destabilized the fleet.
[[image:Flight_of_the_Phoenix-Tigh_Adama.jpg|thumb|left|Tigh and Adama share a knowing smirk at the commissioning of the [[Blackbird]], ''Laura'' ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).]]

Fortunately for the fleet and Colonel Tigh, Commander Adama regains consciousness shortly after the escape and asks what had happened during his absence. Tigh confesses that he has "frakked things up good," but Adama reassures his friend, saying, "I never had much use for people that second-guessed my decisions, especially if they've never held a command. They don't understand the pressure to make a call that affects the lives of thousands, and you have no one to turn to for backup."

Despite all the serious problems that Tigh created, Adama doesn't blame him, telling Tigh that whatever bad calls were made, they would pick up the pieces together ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]).

Both Adama (also a rather secular man) and Tigh are astounded at the number of ships that secede from the main fleet to join the [[Laura Roslin faction|faction]] that sought the [[Tomb of Athena]] with President Roslin ([[The Farm]]). Tigh backs up Adama while he maintains a similar official position on Roslin and the separated ships as Tigh has. However, after Adama realizes that survival of the entire Fleet would only come if everyone held together, Adama begins to prepare a journey to Kobol to retrieve the remainder of the Fleet and reach out to Roslin ([[Home, Part I]]). At first Tigh seems to believe that Adama is retrieving the faction by more military means, and scoffs at Roslin's religious views on the quest until he realizes that Adama is beginning to follow Roslin's information, taking her reports and visions seriously. Tigh is left in command while Adama successfully reunites the Fleet and reconciles with Roslin ([[Home, Part II]]).

=== Fallout from [[Gideon|the Gideon Incident]] ===

''Galactica'''s crew never liked Tigh, and Tigh never asked for their love. Still, the ''Gideon'' Incident was possibly the last straw for many in CIC to lose their trust. Aiding President [[Laura Roslin]]'s escape is one example to that ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]).

After [[William Adama|Adama]] returned to command and Roslin restored to presidency, for a moment the incident was almost forgotten. Before she was invited to ''Galactica'', reporter [[D'anna Biers]] was preparing a story about the incident, which would destroy public's view towards Tigh, and eventually the ''Galactica''. However she dropped the subject in favor of a ''Galactica'' documentary.

Lt. [[Joe Palladino|Joe "Hammerhead" Palladino]], the pilot in charge of the boarding operation to ''Gideon'', eventually lost his temper, presumebly due to D'anna Biers' provocative interview style. He first vandalized Tigh's quarters, then tried to sabotage his [[Raptor]], and finally attacked his wife at the gun point and threatened to kill Tigh. Still, Tigh managed to convince Palladino to drop his weapon, before the room was raided by commandos. This incident was also video taped by Biers' crew, but as far as shown the documentary doesn't mention the ''Gideon'' Incident at all ([[Final Cut]]).

Even though Tigh did his best to evade responsibility of this incident, it is possible to see that his temper and attitude has somehow changed after the command fiasco, like helping [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] with [[Blackbird]] ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).

=== ''Pegasus'' Discovered ===

Things once again turn on their head when ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' has a chance encounter with the Battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', a modern type of Battlestar and the flagship of Admiral [[Helena Cain]]. Cain, being the superior officer, assumes complete command of the Fleet. The naturally suspicious Tigh is wary about this mixed blessing, but takes it in stride like everything else up until now. When he begins to regularly speak with ''Pegasus''’s own XO [[Jack Fisk]], his suspicions slowly prove to be well founded.

Fisk's conscience-clearing sessions with Tigh reveal that Admiral Cain was responsible for a set of atrocities, the most damning being the pillaging and stranding of a small civilian fleet in open space. When Tigh relays this information to Commander Adama, Adama reminisces about their own questionable activities, particularly their actions regarding the ''[[Olympic Carrier]]''. However, Adama keeps Tigh's warnings in mind and they help him in his decision to stand up to Cain later on ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]] through [[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]).

=== The Election and New Caprica ===
When the Presidential election arrives, Col. Tigh is charged with overseeing the vote tallies on ''Galactica''. When it appears that [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] would win the vote, [[Tory Foster]], President Roslin's aide, approaches Col. Tigh and Petty Officer [[Dualla]] to conspire to steal the election for Roslin, forseeing certain dissaster in a Baltar presidencey. Tigh, never a fan of Baltar's to begin with, assists in the deception in order to keep Baltar out of office. The plot is overturned when Lt. [[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]] later notices the Colonel's suspicious and stand-offish behaviour regarding the ballot boxes. Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] lets Tigh and Dualla off the hook and the official vote tallies are "revised" without the public learning of the Roslin campaign's attempt to steal the election.

One year later, after the fleet settles on [[New Caprica]] on the orders of President Baltar, most of the military staff have all but retired from active service. Col. Tigh is one of the few officers still serving aboard ''Galactica'', but the day eventually comes when Admiral Adama discharges his friend and XO from his duties to let him return to civilian life with his wife. On the surface of New Caprica, now-Mr. and Mrs. Tigh run into [[Kara Thrace]] at [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] and [[Cally]]'s union rally. The former colonel and captain share an unusually warm embrace, having put their differences behind them at some point in the preceding year, or Thrace being happy to see a familiar face of the ''Galactica'' family. Unfortunately, their reunion does not last as a large Cylon fleet appears in orbit over the planet and the Cylons occupy New Caprica without firing a shot. Tigh and his wife are last seen watching in utter shock as [[Cylon Centurion]]s march through the streets of New Caprica City ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).
=== Occupation and Resistance ===
Two months into the occupation of New Caprica by the Cylons, Saul Tigh is organizing and recruiting for [[New Caprica Resistance|the resistance on New Caprica]] along with [[Galen Tyrol]] and [[Jammer]]. When the Cylons begin to find the weapons hidden by the Resistance, Tigh orders them to be stored in the Temple, believing it to be the safest place as the Cylon respect the sanctity of the Temple and will not search it. When the Cylons discover the weapons, [[Nora]] is shot and [[Cally Tyrol]] and her baby barely escape. This leads several members of the [[New Caprica Resistance]] to question whether Tigh is going too far. The Cylons later imprison Tigh and physically tear his right eye out. He is badly beaten and put into a small holding cell. Ellen Tigh's sexual efforts with [[Cavil]] lead to Saul's release.

==Notes==
* Tigh's first name has been given as "Paul" on a number of websites. This is based on an early [http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/battlestar/season1/galactica-ms1.pdf version of the script] '''(PDF file)''', which has Adama speaking to "Paul" in their discussion of his fight with Kara Thrace. Since this version of the script has significant differences to the final script, its canonical value is low.
* [[Ronald D. Moore]] has indicated via the [[podcast]] commentary on the episode "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]" that the character's name initially was Paul Tigh. The name, however, had to be changed due to legal issues that Moore was unable to recall in that podcast.
* Tigh is based off the character of Paul Eddington in the movie "[[Wikipedia:In Harm's Way|In Harm's Way]]" portrayed by Kirk Douglas (with John Wayne).
* Tigh's age is one of the only ones which can be accurately deduced. In a [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/202/deleted1.html deleted scene] from [[Valley of Darkness]], we learn that he was serving on the [[Brenik]] when it was boarded during the second year of the Cylon War. Tigh tells us that he was 19, "just a kid. Virgin. Teenager." We know that [[Colonial Day (holiday)|Colonial Day]] is the anniversary of both the unification of the Colonies, and (roughly) the outbreak of the Cylon War (Source: [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/04/index.html#a000025 RDM, April 11, 2005]), and was 52 years ago ([[Colonial Day]]). Thus, Saul Tigh 51+19 = 70 years old in Season 1.
* In the DVD commentary of "[[Act of Contrition]]", Ron Moore notes that actor [[Michael Hogan]] won the role of Tigh over [[Donnelly Rhodes]], who was one of two other actors vying for the part. Rhodes however went on to play the role of [[Cottle|Dr. Cottle]], ''Galactica'''s CMO.

{{start box}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown)''|title=Executive Officer of the [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''|after=[[Karl Agathon]]}}
{{end box}}

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:Characters|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:Characters (RDM)|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:RDM|Tigh, Saul]]

Saul Tigh

2006-10-09T19:52:05Z

Maserati1945: /* Occupation and Resistance */ adding new details

{{Character Data
|photo= Bsg-tigh-1.jpg
|age= 70
|colony= Aerelon
|birthname= Saul Tigh
|callsign=
|seen= Miniseries
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|children= None
|marital status=Married to [[Ellen Tigh]]
|role= Civilian Formerly Executive Officer, ''[[Battlestar]] [[Galactica]]''
|rank= None (formerly colonel)
|actor= [[Michael Hogan]]
|cylon=
|name=
}}

== Biography ==

=== Background ===

'''Colonel Saul Tigh''' was born on the colony of [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]].<ref name="aerelon">"Cylon Intelligence Report: Personnel File: Saul Tigh." Battlestar Galactica: The Official Magazine. Feb./Mar. 2006: 62.</ref> A veteran of the Cylon War, Saul Tigh is sometimes estranged from his wife and has been somewhat disillusioned with his career, seeking refuge in alcoholism - a move which has lead many in the crew to view him with contempt ([[Miniseries]]; "[[33]]").

He is a third generation Colonial soldier. [[Saul Tigh (father of)|His father]] was a decorated fighter pilot killed in combat and [[Saul Tigh (grandfather of)|his grandfather]] served under President [[Mueller (president)|Mueller]]. According to [[Billy Keikeya]], Tigh was a published military historian until personal problems became apparent ([[Miniseries]], [[List of Deleted Scenes (RDM)|deleted scene]]).

Tigh began his career as a deckhand<ref name="deckhand">''Ibid''. "Saul Tigh entered the fleet as a deckhand but rose through the ranks and was a CPO (Chief Petty Officer) by the time the First Cylon War broke out."</ref>. By the second year of the first [[Cylon War]], he was serving as a gunner's mate onboard the ''[[Brenik]]''. His ship was boarded by the Cylons where he and others fought in hand to hand combat, during the bloodiest time of that war. It was during this battle that he saw his first dead man, [[Duncan Rafferty]], who was violently vivisected by Centurions ([http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/202/deleted1.html deleted scene], [[Valley of Darkness]]). His ship was subsequently destroyed and he survived. He was transferred to another unnamed ship, which succumbed to a similar fate as his original ship. Having born witness to many a bloody combat, he became emotionally scarred, which had, among other impetuses, led him to alcoholism.
[[Image:Tighadama.jpg|Tigh and Adama's first meeting.|left|thumb]]

Tigh eventually achieved the rank of Chief Petty Officer ([[Galen Tyrol]]'s position on ''Galactica''). When Viper pilot numbers began running low in the war, Tigh was drafted into Colonial Officer Candidate School and was reassigned as a Viper pilot.<ref>{{cite rdm podcast|episode=Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down}}</ref> As a pilot, he demonstrated considerable skill, earning several medals while posted aboard the battlestar ''[[Athena (Battlestar)|Athena]]''.<ref name="athena">''Ibid''. "Tigh joined the Colonial Officer Candidate School and was reassigned as a Viper pilot, something he excelled in, earning a string of medals in his post aboard the Battlestar Athena."</ref>

After the cessation of hostilities, he was dismissed from service and eked out an existence as a deckhand aboard a commercial freighter. Tigh clearly experienced signs of post-traumatic stress syndrome; he commented that everytime he smelled grease or machine oil he would nearly vomit, as this smell reminded him of the "stink" of Centurions ([[Valley of Darkness]], [[List of Deleted Scenes|deleted scene]]). While onboard, he drowned himself in alcohol and, after a time, encountered [[William Adama]], who had not seen as much combat experience as Tigh himself. They became fast friends, and remained in touch after Adama reenlisted with the service. Two years later<ref name="adama">''Ibid''. "Adama reenlisted with the service and Tigh spent two years drinking before Adama pulled strings to get him back into service. Saul Tigh was straightening his life out when he met his wife Ellen, who he courted and married within two months. Ellen did not take well to military life, and her repeated infidelities drove him back to drink. Ellen and Saul separated shortly before the Cylon attack."</ref>, he was able to pull strings to reenlist Tigh as well ([[Scattered]]).

Following his reenlistment Saul met his future wife Ellen, whom he courted and married after two months, about 7 years before the [[Miniseries]]. Unfortunately, Ellen did not take well to military life and her repeated infidelities drove Saul back into the bottle. The two separated shortly before the Cylon attack.<ref name="adama"/>

Following the Cylon attack, Tigh recovers some of his old verve and attempts to give up alcohol. However, this, combined with the initial stress of flight from the Cylons causes him to over-compensate as a martinet, frequently driving the personnel overly-hard, and berating where encouragement would prove the better option ([[33]]). He excuses this by using the truism that the XO is supposed to be the "hard face" of command.
[[image:33-Tigh_Adama.jpg|thumb|right|"If the crew doesn't hate the XO, then he's not doing his job."]]
With his drinking problem relatively under control, Tigh settled back into his role as the ''Galactica's'' Executive Officer and proved himself both honest and level-headed - if still hard on himself and others - in a number of circumstances, and he provided the kind of support [[William Adama|Adama]] needed.

During Cylon attacks, he proves himself to be an excellent battle manager and tactician. His quick actions sometimes save the ship and [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] from damage or destruction ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]], [[Scattered]], [[Valley of Darkness]]).

Tigh is uneasy around President [[Laura Roslin]] ([[Water]]), and resents what he sees as her interfering with Adama's command ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]) - something born out of his deep respect for Adama which even the most heated of disagreements between them ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]) cannot disrupt.

Tigh personally dislikes [[Kara Thrace]], one of ''Galactica's'' pilots and, while grudgingly conceding she is a fine pilot, does not understand what Adama sees in her ([[Miniseries]]). Tigh sees Thrace as an egotistical, insubordinate youngster. While they have tried to bury the hatchet between them ([[Miniseries]], [[Water]]), there is potentially too much water under the bridge now for them to get completely past their differences.

Outside of Adama, Tigh has few others he regards as confidants aboard ship; and since the initial Cylon attack, he withdraws from interacting with the crew during off-duty hours, making him perhaps more isolated than even Adama - who is at least held in awe and respect by the crew.

=== Wife's Return ===
[[image:Tigh_Me_Up_Tigh_Me_Down-Saul_Ellen.jpg|thumb|left|'''Saul''' and his newly returned wife, [[Ellen Tigh|Ellen]], making a toast: "To starting over" ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]).]]
Some three weeks after the Cylon attack on the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]], Tigh is stunned to discover his wife, [[Ellen Tigh|Ellen]], has not been killed as he had thought, but was rescued from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], and carried aboard the ''[[Rising Star (RDM)|Rising Star]]'' as an unconscious "Jane Doe". Whether this reunion will be for his betterment or not remains to be seen.

Despite the emotional implications from the destruction of the Colonies and life aboard the ship, Tigh is reluctantly thrust further into politics as his wife plays her schemes. Much to his disdain, his wife attempts to procure photo opportunities with the likes of [[Tom Zarek]] -- a person Tigh views with the utmost contempt ([[Colonial Day]]). Additionally, Ellen seems to re-establish Saul Tigh's alcoholism with gratuitous drinking.

Despite this, Adama sends Tigh with a squadron of [[Colonial Marine Corps|marines]] to arrest [[Laura Roslin]] after Adama discovers that she convinced [[Kara Thrace]] to [[FTL|Jump]] back to [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] to retrieve a historical artifact called the [[Arrow of Apollo]] from the Delphi Museum. This action deprives the Fleet of a crucial military asset -- a captured [[Cylon Raider]], intended to have been used to plant a nuclear warhead aboard a basestar in orbit around the planet believed to be [[Kobol]] -- and convinces Adama that Roslin is abusing her authority.

Onboard ''[[Colonial One]]'', Tigh's men and Roslin's [[Presidential Security Service|personal security agents]] are at a standoff when [[Lee Adama]] aims a weapon at Tigh's head and attempts to thwart the arrest. Attempting to defuse the situation, Roslin agrees to be arrested and Lee Adama is arrested on charges of treason ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]).

=== Tigh in Command ===
[[Image:Scattered-Tigh.jpg|thumb|right|Tigh realizing he's in a bit over his head ([[Scattered]]).]]
Tigh is present in [[CIC]] during the attempted assassination of Adama by [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]]. As guards restrain Valerii, Tigh attempts to stop the bleeding from the torso gunshot wounds Adama sustained in the attempt ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). Needing reliable officers, Tigh grants Lee Adama a parole from his arrest. After his daily duties as [[CAG]] are done, Lee promises to return to the brig when off-shift.

With Adama incapacitated and with Roslin dethroned, Tigh tries to maintain order. However, his irrational and gruff command style displeases many crewmembers. Morale and ship efficiency began to suffer. Ellen Tigh becomes a private advisor to her husband, frequently questioning his power to command while also suggesting ways of usurping more power and quashing his opponents. Ellen Tigh's advice only exacerbates an already-deteriorating situation.

Tigh's interrogation of suspected Cylon collaborators or infiltrators is brutal. After beating, then nearly shooting the ''Galactica'' copy of Valerii, other issues in the Fleet divert him from further interrogation. He orders a special cage made for her for later interrogation. Tigh also savagely interrogates Valerii's former lover, Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] as a possible [[Cylon agent]] himself. Tigh would have left him with Valerii in the newly built Cylon cage if [[Gaius Baltar]] did not intervene to prove medically that Tyrol is not a Cylon himself.

With Roslin in prison, uprisings begin as civilian ships refuse to supply ''Galactica'' until Roslin is released. Worse, the [[Quorum of Twelve]] demand to see Roslin. Knowing of Roslin's hallucinations in the brig, he intentionally invites the Quorum to see Roslin in her poor state in hopes of disillusioning the Quorum. However, Roslin recovers sufficiently from her [[Chamalla]] withdrawal after getting a supply smuggled to her by Corporal [[Venner]], her guard. Tigh, a secular man, believes that the accounts within the [[Sacred Scrolls]] weren't to be believed, and teases Roslin in front of the Quorum on her visions. Roslin not only is able to speak to the Quorum, but decisively reinforces her decisions as well as her role in the search for the location of Earth as told in the Pythian prophesies. This act greatly impresses the dominantly religious-minded Quorum, and infuriates Tigh; fearing a larger civilan government uprising led by the Quorum. Tigh institutes [[Wikipedia:martial law|martial law]] throughout the Fleet in an attempt to maintain order in a rapidly chaotic shuffle of power between the civilian and military governments ([[Fragged]]).

The supply situation leads Tigh to a poor decision of using Viper pilots to command marines in forcibly retrieving supplies. On [[Gideon|one ship]], a riot leads to four deaths and many injuries due to the pilot's inexperience in managing such a situation. Unlike Adama (who likely would have taken direct responsibility for the "Gideon Massacre"), Tigh places blame solely on the pilot, absolving himself from the incident.

=== Fleet Factioning and Adama's Return ===

The shootings, Tigh's decision for martial law, and his unwillingness to discuss anything with anyone except Ellen Tigh (and the unconscious Adama) becomes the dividing point of those wanting to press on to finding Earth, and those wanting to settle on Kobol ([[Season 2 (2005-06)|Season 2]]). Tigh's drinking spirals further out of control, leading to more erratic behavior and causing great concern regarding his ability to effectively command, particularly among the [[CIC]] staff. The situation comes to a head when Roslin, tacitly aided by other officers and crew on ''Galactica'', escapes the brig in an attempt to hide amongst the many ships in the Fleet with the aid of [[Tom Zarek]]. Tigh chases down the escaping Raptor using the [[CAP]], having the Viper fire across the bow of the fleeing Raptor to persuade it to return. The Raptor brazenly continues onward, leading to a crucial decision for the Colonel. Tigh allows the Raptor to escape rather than shooting it down, which would have killed Adama's son and the President and could have destabilized the fleet.
[[image:Flight_of_the_Phoenix-Tigh_Adama.jpg|thumb|left|Tigh and Adama share a knowing smirk at the commissioning of the [[Blackbird]], ''Laura'' ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).]]

Fortunately for the fleet and Colonel Tigh, Commander Adama regains consciousness shortly after the escape and asks what had happened during his absence. Tigh confesses that he has "frakked things up good," but Adama reassures his friend, saying, "I never had much use for people that second-guessed my decisions, especially if they've never held a command. They don't understand the pressure to make a call that affects the lives of thousands, and you have no one to turn to for backup."

Despite all the serious problems that Tigh created, Adama doesn't blame him, telling Tigh that whatever bad calls were made, they would pick up the pieces together ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]).

Both Adama (also a rather secular man) and Tigh are astounded at the number of ships that secede from the main fleet to join the [[Laura Roslin faction|faction]] that sought the [[Tomb of Athena]] with President Roslin ([[The Farm]]). Tigh backs up Adama while he maintains a similar official position on Roslin and the separated ships as Tigh has. However, after Adama realizes that survival of the entire Fleet would only come if everyone held together, Adama begins to prepare a journey to Kobol to retrieve the remainder of the Fleet and reach out to Roslin ([[Home, Part I]]). At first Tigh seems to believe that Adama is retrieving the faction by more military means, and scoffs at Roslin's religious views on the quest until he realizes that Adama is beginning to follow Roslin's information, taking her reports and visions seriously. Tigh is left in command while Adama successfully reunites the Fleet and reconciles with Roslin ([[Home, Part II]]).

=== Fallout from [[Gideon|the Gideon Incident]] ===

''Galactica'''s crew never liked Tigh, and Tigh never asked for their love. Still, the ''Gideon'' Incident was possibly the last straw for many in CIC to lose their trust. Aiding President [[Laura Roslin]]'s escape is one example to that ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]).

After [[William Adama|Adama]] returned to command and Roslin restored to presidency, for a moment the incident was almost forgotten. Before she was invited to ''Galactica'', reporter [[D'anna Biers]] was preparing a story about the incident, which would destroy public's view towards Tigh, and eventually the ''Galactica''. However she dropped the subject in favor of a ''Galactica'' documentary.

Lt. [[Joe Palladino|Joe "Hammerhead" Palladino]], the pilot in charge of the boarding operation to ''Gideon'', eventually lost his temper, presumebly due to D'anna Biers' provocative interview style. He first vandalized Tigh's quarters, then tried to sabotage his [[Raptor]], and finally attacked his wife at the gun point and threatened to kill Tigh. Still, Tigh managed to convince Palladino to drop his weapon, before the room was raided by commandos. This incident was also video taped by Biers' crew, but as far as shown the documentary doesn't mention the ''Gideon'' Incident at all ([[Final Cut]]).

Even though Tigh did his best to evade responsibility of this incident, it is possible to see that his temper and attitude has somehow changed after the command fiasco, like helping [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] with [[Blackbird]] ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).

=== ''Pegasus'' Discovered ===

Things once again turn on their head when ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' has a chance encounter with the Battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', a modern type of Battlestar and the flagship of Admiral [[Helena Cain]]. Cain, being the superior officer, assumes complete command of the Fleet. The naturally suspicious Tigh is wary about this mixed blessing, but takes it in stride like everything else up until now. When he begins to regularly speak with ''Pegasus''’s own XO [[Jack Fisk]], his suspicions slowly prove to be well founded.

Fisk's conscience-clearing sessions with Tigh reveal that Admiral Cain was responsible for a set of atrocities, the most damning being the pillaging and stranding of a small civilian fleet in open space. When Tigh relays this information to Commander Adama, Adama reminisces about their own questionable activities, particularly their actions regarding the ''[[Olympic Carrier]]''. However, Adama keeps Tigh's warnings in mind and they help him in his decision to stand up to Cain later on ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]] through [[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]).

=== The Election and New Caprica ===
When the Presidential election arrives, Col. Tigh is charged with overseeing the vote tallies on ''Galactica''. When it appears that [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] would win the vote, [[Tory Foster]], President Roslin's aide, approaches Col. Tigh and Petty Officer [[Dualla]] to conspire to steal the election for Roslin, forseeing certain dissaster in a Baltar presidencey. Tigh, never a fan of Baltar's to begin with, assists in the deception in order to keep Baltar out of office. The plot is overturned when Lt. [[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]] later notices the Colonel's suspicious and stand-offish behaviour regarding the ballot boxes. Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] lets Tigh and Dualla off the hook and the official vote tallies are "revised" without the public learning of the Roslin campaign's attempt to steal the election.

One year later, after the fleet settles on [[New Caprica]] on the orders of President Baltar, most of the military staff have all but retired from active service. Col. Tigh is one of the few officers still serving aboard ''Galactica'', but the day eventually comes when Admiral Adama discharges his friend and XO from his duties to let him return to civilian life with his wife. On the surface of New Caprica, now-Mr. and Mrs. Tigh run into [[Kara Thrace]] at [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] and [[Cally]]'s union rally. The former colonel and captain share an unusually warm embrace, having put their differences behind them at some point in the preceding year, or Thrace being happy to see a familiar face of the ''Galactica'' family. Unfortunately, their reunion does not last as a large Cylon fleet appears in orbit over the planet and the Cylons occupy New Caprica without firing a shot. Tigh and his wife are last seen watching in utter shock as [[Cylon Centurion]]s march through the streets of New Caprica City ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).
=== Occupation and Resistance ===
Two months into the occupation of New Caprica by the Cylons, Saul Tigh is organizing and recruiting for [[New Caprica Resistance|the resistance on New Caprica]] along with [[Galen Tyrol]] and [[Jammer]]. When the Cylons begin to find the weapons hidden by the Resistance, Tigh orders them to be stored in the Temple, believing it to be the safest place as the Cylon respect the sanctity of the Temple and will not search it. The Cylons imprison Tigh and physically tear his right eye out. He is badly beaten and put into a small holding cell. Ellen Tigh's sexual efforts with Cavil lead to Saul's release.

==Notes==
* Tigh's first name has been given as "Paul" on a number of websites. This is based on an early [http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/battlestar/season1/galactica-ms1.pdf version of the script] '''(PDF file)''', which has Adama speaking to "Paul" in their discussion of his fight with Kara Thrace. Since this version of the script has significant differences to the final script, its canonical value is low.
* [[Ronald D. Moore]] has indicated via the [[podcast]] commentary on the episode "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]" that the character's name initially was Paul Tigh. The name, however, had to be changed due to legal issues that Moore was unable to recall in that podcast.
* Tigh is based off the character of Paul Eddington in the movie "[[Wikipedia:In Harm's Way|In Harm's Way]]" portrayed by Kirk Douglas (with John Wayne).
* Tigh's age is one of the only ones which can be accurately deduced. In a [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/202/deleted1.html deleted scene] from [[Valley of Darkness]], we learn that he was serving on the [[Brenik]] when it was boarded during the second year of the Cylon War. Tigh tells us that he was 19, "just a kid. Virgin. Teenager." We know that [[Colonial Day (holiday)|Colonial Day]] is the anniversary of both the unification of the Colonies, and (roughly) the outbreak of the Cylon War (Source: [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/04/index.html#a000025 RDM, April 11, 2005]), and was 52 years ago ([[Colonial Day]]). Thus, Saul Tigh 51+19 = 70 years old in Season 1.
* In the DVD commentary of "[[Act of Contrition]]", Ron Moore notes that actor [[Michael Hogan]] won the role of Tigh over [[Donnelly Rhodes]], who was one of two other actors vying for the part. Rhodes however went on to play the role of [[Cottle|Dr. Cottle]], ''Galactica'''s CMO.

{{start box}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown)''|title=Executive Officer of the [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''|after=[[Karl Agathon]]}}
{{end box}}

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:Characters|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:Characters (RDM)|Tigh, Saul]]
[[Category:RDM|Tigh, Saul]]

The Fleet (TRS)

2006-10-09T08:06:55Z

Maserati1945: /* Ships */adding info

:''This article involves the caravan of [[FTL|faster-than-light]]-capable civilian ships in the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]]. For information on its [[Sublight Propulsion|sublight]] counterpart in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]], see [[The Fleet (TOS)]]. For information on the military ships that protected the Twelve Colonies before their demise, see [[Colonial Fleet]].'' 

'''The Fleet''' is the convoy of ships that contain what is effectively the last survivors of humanity after the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Cylon Attack]]. The Fleet forms the backdrop of the drama of [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|the re-imagined ''Battlestar Galactica'' series]].

Unofficially, many viewers refer to the Fleet as the "RTF"; "Rag Tag Fleet", or more fully, "RTFF." These nicknames come from the term "Rag Tag Fugitive Fleet," a name used in the opening credits voiceover (performed by [[Lorne Greene]]) describing the [[The Fleet (TOS)|civilian refugee fleet]] from the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]].
[[Image:Mini side fleet.jpg|right|400px]]
==Overview==
"The Fleet" begins as a convoy of about sixty stranded commercial and civilian ships around the area of [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] assembled by new President [[Laura Roslin]] in the immediate aftermath of the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Cylon Attack]] ([[Miniseries]]). Of these ships, only a handful were Colonial military craft, such as [[Raptor 478]] and three [[Viper (RDM)|Viper Mark VII]] fighters. One [[ECO]], [[Crashdown]], is called a "refugee from [[Triton]]," suggesting that he escaped that battlestar's destruction with Roslin's convoy.

Twenty ships of the convoy are abandoned to an imminent Cylon attack because they lacked [[FTL]] drives. The remainder of the Fleet joins with battlestar ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'', the only [[Pegasus (RDM)|known]] surviving warship in the first months after the events of the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. The Fleet represents the last vestige of humanity. The political and social troubles of the Fleet as it wanders through space function as a metaphor for all of humanity, since the Fleet literally ''is'' what is left of humanity in the television series.

The phrase "the Fleet" functions not only as a signifier for the actual ships of the convoy, but as a substitute for the people on board, and therefore for mankind. Usage of the term "the Fleet" has not gained more than an informal acceptance, as can be seen by President Roslin's continued use of the term ''President of the [[Twelve Colonies]].'' This may be interpreted as either an expression of hope that eventually the people on board the ships of the Fleet will reestablish themselves on a new colony permanently, or a psychological inability to confront that the Fleet may be the only home that humanity knows for a very long time.

[[Saul Tigh]]'s assertion in "[[The Farm]]" that the twenty four ships which departed with the [[Laura Roslin faction]] during her insurrection represented "almost a third of the fleet" imply that the number of ships in the Fleet is approximately in the mid-70's.

==Ships==
* The ships that comprise the Fleet feature a type of security launch key used to activate the ship's systems ([[Precipice]]} The keys are unique to each vessel and are extremely difficult to copy.
====Military Vessels====
* ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'', last remaining [[Galactica type battlestar|original battlestar]] and main protector and flagship of the Fleet, under direct command of Admiral [[William Adama]] ([[Miniseries]])
* ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', a [[Mercury class battlestar]] formerly commanded by [[Helena Cain]] ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]), Jack Fisk ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]) and [[Barry Garner]] ([[The Captain's Hand]]). It is currently under the command of [[Lee Adama]] ([[The Captain's Hand]])

====Government Vessels====
* ''[[Cloud 9]]'', a luxury liner designed to mimic the enviroment of a habitable planet.
**Meeting place of the [[Quorum of Twelve]]. ([[Colonial Day]])
**Base of operations for [[Demand Peace]] ([[Epiphanies]])
**Destroyed by a nuke along with at least three other ships. ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]])
* ''[[Colonial One]]'', President [[Laura Roslin]]'s ship and ostensible seat of government, previously known as ''[[Colonial Heavy 798]]'' ([[Miniseries]])

====Civilian Vessels====
* ''[[Astral Queen]]'', prison ship noted for carrying 1500 prisoners, including [[Tom Zarek]] ([[Bastille Day]])
* ''[[Botanical Cruiser]]'' (While the original was destroyed in the [[Miniseries]], various background shots have placed an [[FTL]]-equipped Botanical Cruiser in the Fleet.)
* ''[[Daru Mozu]]'', a [[tylium]] refinery ship. Damaged by a suicide bomber ([[Epiphanies]])
* ''[[Gemini]]'', a freighter ([[Miniseries]])
* ''[[Gideon]]'', a supply ship involved in an incident where four civilians were killed by ''Galactica'' marines ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]])
* ''[[Prometheus]]'', an "off the grid" freighter and den of mercenary-turned-crime boss [[Phelan]]
* ''[[Space Park]]'' (Identified on official Sci-Fi Channel web site but not yet named in an aired episode)
* 3 ''[[Colonial Movers]]'' heavy transports
** At least one destroyed in the ''Cloud 9'' disaster.

=====[[Intersun Passenger Cruiser]]s=====
* ''[[Olympic Carrier]]'', destroyed in "[[33]]" after an apparent Cylon takeover.
* ''[[Gemenon Liner 1701]]'', found by ''Colonial One'' shortly after Laura Roslin's hasty inauguration ([[Miniseries]])
* Unnamed [[Orange Passenger Cruiser]] ([[Miniseries]])
* An unnamed ''[[Pan Galactic]]'' spaceliner ([[Miniseries]])

=====Celestra Type=====
* ''[[Celestra]] (Identified on official Sci-Fi Channel web site but not yet seen in aired episode)
* ''[[Striker]]'', damaged in a refuelling operation overseen by Capt. [[George Birch]] ([[Home, Part I]])

=====Gemenon Traveler type=====
* ''[[Gemenon Traveller]]'', a civilian ship where a copy of [[Leoben Conoy]] is captured ([[Flesh and Bone]])
* ''[[Kimba Huta]]'', a cold storage vessel on which exiled President Roslin hides from Commander Adama and Colonel Tigh ([[The Farm]])

=====Flattop Type=====
* ''[[Flattop]]'', a [[salvage and repair]] ship (Identified on official Sci-Fi Channel web site but not yet seen in aired episode)
* ''[[Virgon Express]]'' ([[Water]])

=====[[Mining Ship]]s=====
* ''[[Majahual]]'', a mining ship digging for crucial metals ([[Scar]])
* ''[[Monarch]]'', a mining ship that joined the [[Laura Roslin faction]] ([[Home, Part I]])

=====Mentioned Only=====
* ''[[Adriatic]]'', a member of the Roslin faction armed with ship-to-ship missiles ([[Home, Part I]])
* ''[[Baah Pakal]]'', a ship carrying unused [[DDG-62]] engines onboard ([[Flight of the Phoenix]])
* ''[[Coronis]]'' ([[Litmus]], [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season01/106/deleted1.html deleted scene])
* ''[[Demetrius]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Diomedes]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Embla Brokk]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Enkidu]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Epheme]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Fanu Sadin]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Freighter 212]]'', a ship [[Louanne Katraine]] apparently has some "buddies" on ([[Final Cut]])
* ''[[Galatea]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Greenleaf]]'', a freighter where [[Asha Janik]] and [[Ray Abinell]] were maintenance workers.
* ''[[Harrak]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[McConnell]]'', a supply ship frequented by Commander [[Jack Fisk]]
* ''[[Mutem Wia]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Odysseus]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Persephone]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Picon 36]]'', [[Miniseries]]
* ''[[Rising Star (RDM)|Rising Star]]'', mentioned frequently but as yet unseen.
* ''[[Salpica]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Sargon]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Scorpia Traveler]]'', a civilian ship that carried a suicide bomber copy of [[Aaron Doral]] ([[Litmus]])
* ''[[Swordfish]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Tarbadeck]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Tauranian Traveler]]'', mentioned in a deleted scene in "[[33]]" and visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Zephyr]]'' ([[Fragged]])

In the episode "[[The Farm]]", 24 ships leave the Fleet to return to Kobol. [[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] provides the following breakdown:
*12 transports - incl. the ''Astral Queen'', and the ''Gemenon Traveller''
*7 freighters
*3 construction platforms
*1 private cruiser
*1 mining ship - the ''Monarch''.

==Demographics==
A few points of information are available concerning the demographics of the Fleet. In "[[33]]", before the destruction of the Olympic Carrier, there were 5,251 survivors from Sagittaron and 49,998 total survivors. In "[[Home, Part I]]", the [[Laura Roslin faction]] left the Fleet with 18,000 individuals, of which 9,500 were Gemenons and 6,250 were Capricans. At that time the total population of the fleet was 47,857.

This information is sparse, but it gives a general idea of the population breakdown of the Fleet if a few assumptions are made for the sake of argument.
*Note that Gemenon and Caprica had more citizens in the Roslin faction alone than Sagittaron had in the entire Fleet. The Twelve Colonies are clearly not represented in equal proportion.
*Before the destruction of the ''Olympic Carrier'', Sagittaron natives made up 10.50% of the fleet. Solely for the purpose of argument, we assume that the ''Olympic Carrier'''s population breakdown was identical to the rest of the fleet's and that Sagittaron continues to make up 10.50% of the Fleet's total population.
*The figures from the Roslin faction can be viewed in several ways:
<div style="float:right; margin:10px">[[Image:Demographics1.png]]</div>
:*ASSUMPTION 1: All Gemenons and Capricans jumped to Kobol with the Roslin faction.
::*Caprica: 6,250 persons (13.06%)
::*Gemenon: 9,500 persons (19.85%)
::*Sagittaron: 5,026 persons (10.50%)
::*Others: 27,081 (56.59%) 
<div style="float:right; margin:10px">[[Image:Demographics2.png]]</div>
:*ASSUMPTION 2: All Gemenons jumped to Kobol with the Roslin faction, lured by the "religion card", but Caprican portion of the Roslin faction was representative of the Fleet.
::*Caprica: 28,204 persons (58.93%)
::*Gemenon: 9,500 persons (19.85%)
::*Sagittaron: 5,026 persons (10.50%)
::*Others: 5,127 persons (10.72%) 
<div style="float:right; margin:10px">[[Image:Demographics3.png]]</div>
:*ASSUMPTION 3: Caprican and Gemenon portions of the Roslin faction were representative of the fleet.
::*Caprica: 16,617 persons (34.72%)
::*Gemenon: 25,258 persons (52.78%)
::*Sagittaron: 5,026 persons (10.50%)
::*Others: 956 (2.00%) 
*Although it is plausible that the Caprican population is substantially larger than the other colonies, as ''Colonial Heavy 798'' was in the vicinity when the attack began, and was the nucleus around which the fleet rallied, it is unlikely that the populations of each colony are grossly unequal, or else the [[Quorum of Twelve]] would be a very poor system of government. The likeliest scenario is therefore probably somewhere in between Assumptions 1 and 2, with nearly all of the Gemenon population (drawn by the "religion card") and a large portion of the Caprican population leaving with Roslin.
*Alternatively, it is in fact possible that the populations of the colonies were grossly unequal. Though the structure of the [[Quorum of Twelve]] appears to maintain at least a fiction that the colonies were roughly equal, we know next to nothing about how the governmental system of the colonies was established or evolved over time. Indeed, the United States Senate, for example, by design expressly assumes that the various states constituting it are 'equal' even though this is clearly not the case in terms of their respective populations. Furthermore, the fact that a system of government is 'poor' or else not representatively proportional does not mean it cannot actually be implemented and even survive for long periods of time.

As for population distribution, we know the population of ''Galactica'' (2,693 as of [[Water]]), the ''Olympic Carrier'' (1,345 as of [[33]]) and ''Astral Queen'' (1,500 as of [[Bastille Day]], [[List of retcons (RDM)|retconned]] up from 500 in the Miniseries). There are 176 civillians in the cargo hold of [[Colonial One]] in "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]". The fleet is stated at about 75 ships in "[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]", retconned up from 40 in the mini.
*Going by the 75 ship count, the remaining ships besides ''Galactica'' and the ''Astral Queen'' each carry about 600 persons on average.
*The 23 ships that left with the [[Laura Roslin faction]], apart from the ''Astral Queen'', would have an average population of about 720 persons per ship.

==Notes==
In the [[Miniseries]], astute viewers may recognize three spacecraft with notable resemblances of ships from other SF universes. These ships aren't considered a [[Canon|canonical]] part of the series or the Fleet, but their appearance adds a bit of humor and pays homage to other notable science fiction and their creative staff.

* ''Serenity'', the central ship from the TV series "[[Wikipedia:Firefly (TV series)|Firefly]]" and the motion picture, "[[Wikipedia:Serenity (film)|Serenity]]", [[:Image:SerenityBSGMini.JPG|appears briefly in the sky]] outside the window of a doctor's office where viewers first see [[Laura Roslin]]. The ship does not appear in the Fleet.

* The original USS [[Wikipedia:USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)|''Enterprise'' (NCC-1701)]] from the original ''[[Wikipedia:Star Trek: The Original Series|Star Trek]]'' TV series makes a cameo in the [[:Image:Enterprise in fleet.jpg|last shot of the Fleet]] as [[Elosha]] chants a prayer in the memorial service near the end of the Miniseries. Look to the upper right corner for the ship in a still frame. All season 1 opening credits use this shot, so ''Enterprise'' makes a very quick appearance with each of the first 13 episodes (This is best viewed from the [[Season 1 DVD]] set).

*The ill-fated [[Botanical Cruiser]] was added in homage to the [[Agro Ship]] from the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|original ''Battlestar Galactica'']] TV series, which in turn were the re-used models from the SF film ''[[Wikipedia:Silent Running|Silent Running]]'', a Universal/MCA movie that special effects guru [[John Dykstra]] worked on a few years prior to the Original Series. The ship reappears in the regular series, despite its destruction in the Miniseries, suggesting that similar ships survive and exist in the Fleet.

==See Also==
[[:Category:Colonial Craft|Colonial Craft]]

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial]]
[[Category: Terminology]]
[[Category:RDM]]

[[de:Die Flotte (RDM)]]

Refueling tanker

2006-10-09T02:24:01Z

Maserati1945:

A refueling tanker, or "Tanker Bird", is a vessel that allows Vipers and Raptors to refuel away from a battlestar or base by means of mid-flight fuel transfers.
*It is not known what type or vessel is used as a "Tanker Bird". The vessel is mentioned by Admiral Adama in ([[Occupation]]), but is not seen on screen. However, it is likely to be a Raptor modified with extra fuel tanks.

The Fleet (TRS)

2006-10-07T09:18:48Z

Maserati1945: /* Ships */

:''This article involves the caravan of [[FTL|faster-than-light]]-capable civilian ships in the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]]. For information on its [[Sublight Propulsion|sublight]] counterpart in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]], see [[The Fleet (TOS)]]. For information on the military ships that protected the Twelve Colonies before their demise, see [[Colonial Fleet]].'' 

'''The Fleet''' is the convoy of ships that contain what is effectively the last survivors of humanity after the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Cylon Attack]]. The Fleet forms the backdrop of the drama of [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|the re-imagined ''Battlestar Galactica'' series]].

Unofficially, many viewers refer to the Fleet as the "RTF"; "Rag Tag Fleet", or more fully, "RTFF." These nicknames come from the term "Rag Tag Fugitive Fleet," a name used in the opening credits voiceover (performed by [[Lorne Greene]]) describing the [[The Fleet (TOS)|civilian refugee fleet]] from the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]].
[[Image:Mini side fleet.jpg|right|400px]]
==Overview==
"The Fleet" begins as a convoy of about sixty stranded commercial and civilian ships around the area of [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] assembled by new President [[Laura Roslin]] in the immediate aftermath of the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Cylon Attack]] ([[Miniseries]]). Of these ships, only a handful were Colonial military craft, such as [[Raptor 478]] and three [[Viper (RDM)|Viper Mark VII]] fighters. One [[ECO]], [[Crashdown]], is called a "refugee from [[Triton]]," suggesting that he escaped that battlestar's destruction with Roslin's convoy.

Twenty ships of the convoy are abandoned to an imminent Cylon attack because they lacked [[FTL]] drives. The remainder of the Fleet joins with battlestar ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'', the only [[Pegasus (RDM)|known]] surviving warship in the first months after the events of the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. The Fleet represents the last vestige of humanity. The political and social troubles of the Fleet as it wanders through space function as a metaphor for all of humanity, since the Fleet literally ''is'' what is left of humanity in the television series.

The phrase "the Fleet" functions not only as a signifier for the actual ships of the convoy, but as a substitute for the people on board, and therefore for mankind. Usage of the term "the Fleet" has not gained more than an informal acceptance, as can be seen by President Roslin's continued use of the term ''President of the [[Twelve Colonies]].'' This may be interpreted as either an expression of hope that eventually the people on board the ships of the Fleet will reestablish themselves on a new colony permanently, or a psychological inability to confront that the Fleet may be the only home that humanity knows for a very long time.

[[Saul Tigh]]'s assertion in "[[The Farm]]" that the twenty four ships which departed with the [[Laura Roslin faction]] during her insurrection represented "almost a third of the fleet" imply that the number of ships in the Fleet is approximately in the mid-70's.

==Ships==
* The ships that comprise the Fleet feature a type of security key used to activate the ship's systems ([[Precipice]]}
====Military Vessels====
* ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'', last remaining [[Galactica type battlestar|original battlestar]] and main protector and flagship of the Fleet, under direct command of Admiral [[William Adama]] ([[Miniseries]])
* ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', a [[Mercury class battlestar]] formerly commanded by [[Helena Cain]] ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]), Jack Fisk ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]) and [[Barry Garner]] ([[The Captain's Hand]]). It is currently under the command of [[Lee Adama]] ([[The Captain's Hand]])

====Government Vessels====
* ''[[Cloud 9]]'', a luxury liner designed to mimic the enviroment of a habitable planet.
**Meeting place of the [[Quorum of Twelve]]. ([[Colonial Day]])
**Base of operations for [[Demand Peace]] ([[Epiphanies]])
**Destroyed by a nuke along with at least three other ships. ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]])
* ''[[Colonial One]]'', President [[Laura Roslin]]'s ship and ostensible seat of government, previously known as ''[[Colonial Heavy 798]]'' ([[Miniseries]])

====Civilian Vessels====
* ''[[Astral Queen]]'', prison ship noted for carrying 1500 prisoners, including [[Tom Zarek]] ([[Bastille Day]])
* ''[[Botanical Cruiser]]'' (While the original was destroyed in the [[Miniseries]], various background shots have placed an [[FTL]]-equipped Botanical Cruiser in the Fleet.)
* ''[[Daru Mozu]]'', a [[tylium]] refinery ship. Damaged by a suicide bomber ([[Epiphanies]])
* ''[[Gemini]]'', a freighter ([[Miniseries]])
* ''[[Gideon]]'', a supply ship involved in an incident where four civilians were killed by ''Galactica'' marines ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]])
* ''[[Prometheus]]'', an "off the grid" freighter and den of mercenary-turned-crime boss [[Phelan]]
* ''[[Space Park]]'' (Identified on official Sci-Fi Channel web site but not yet named in an aired episode)
* 3 ''[[Colonial Movers]]'' heavy transports
** At least one destroyed in the ''Cloud 9'' disaster.

=====[[Intersun Passenger Cruiser]]s=====
* ''[[Olympic Carrier]]'', destroyed in "[[33]]" after an apparent Cylon takeover.
* ''[[Gemenon Liner 1701]]'', found by ''Colonial One'' shortly after Laura Roslin's hasty inauguration ([[Miniseries]])
* Unnamed [[Orange Passenger Cruiser]] ([[Miniseries]])
* An unnamed ''[[Pan Galactic]]'' spaceliner ([[Miniseries]])

=====Celestra Type=====
* ''[[Celestra]] (Identified on official Sci-Fi Channel web site but not yet seen in aired episode)
* ''[[Striker]]'', damaged in a refuelling operation overseen by Capt. [[George Birch]] ([[Home, Part I]])

=====Gemenon Traveler type=====
* ''[[Gemenon Traveller]]'', a civilian ship where a copy of [[Leoben Conoy]] is captured ([[Flesh and Bone]])
* ''[[Kimba Huta]]'', a cold storage vessel on which exiled President Roslin hides from Commander Adama and Colonel Tigh ([[The Farm]])

=====Flattop Type=====
* ''[[Flattop]]'', a [[salvage and repair]] ship (Identified on official Sci-Fi Channel web site but not yet seen in aired episode)
* ''[[Virgon Express]]'' ([[Water]])

=====[[Mining Ship]]s=====
* ''[[Majahual]]'', a mining ship digging for crucial metals ([[Scar]])
* ''[[Monarch]]'', a mining ship that joined the [[Laura Roslin faction]] ([[Home, Part I]])

=====Mentioned Only=====
* ''[[Adriatic]]'', a member of the Roslin faction armed with ship-to-ship missiles ([[Home, Part I]])
* ''[[Baah Pakal]]'', a ship carrying unused [[DDG-62]] engines onboard ([[Flight of the Phoenix]])
* ''[[Coronis]]'' ([[Litmus]], [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season01/106/deleted1.html deleted scene])
* ''[[Demetrius]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Diomedes]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Embla Brokk]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Enkidu]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Epheme]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Fanu Sadin]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Freighter 212]]'', a ship [[Louanne Katraine]] apparently has some "buddies" on ([[Final Cut]])
* ''[[Galatea]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Greenleaf]]'', a freighter where [[Asha Janik]] and [[Ray Abinell]] were maintenance workers.
* ''[[Harrak]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[McConnell]]'', a supply ship frequented by Commander [[Jack Fisk]]
* ''[[Mutem Wia]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Odysseus]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Persephone]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Picon 36]]'', [[Miniseries]]
* ''[[Rising Star (RDM)|Rising Star]]'', mentioned frequently but as yet unseen.
* ''[[Salpica]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Sargon]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Scorpia Traveler]]'', a civilian ship that carried a suicide bomber copy of [[Aaron Doral]] ([[Litmus]])
* ''[[Swordfish]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Tarbadeck]]'', visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Tauranian Traveler]]'', mentioned in a deleted scene in "[[33]]" and visible on vote tally boards in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]".
* ''[[Zephyr]]'' ([[Fragged]])

In the episode "[[The Farm]]", 24 ships leave the Fleet to return to Kobol. [[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] provides the following breakdown:
*12 transports - incl. the ''Astral Queen'', and the ''Gemenon Traveller''
*7 freighters
*3 construction platforms
*1 private cruiser
*1 mining ship - the ''Monarch''.

==Demographics==
A few points of information are available concerning the demographics of the Fleet. In "[[33]]", before the destruction of the Olympic Carrier, there were 5,251 survivors from Sagittaron and 49,998 total survivors. In "[[Home, Part I]]", the [[Laura Roslin faction]] left the Fleet with 18,000 individuals, of which 9,500 were Gemenons and 6,250 were Capricans. At that time the total population of the fleet was 47,857.

This information is sparse, but it gives a general idea of the population breakdown of the Fleet if a few assumptions are made for the sake of argument.
*Note that Gemenon and Caprica had more citizens in the Roslin faction alone than Sagittaron had in the entire Fleet. The Twelve Colonies are clearly not represented in equal proportion.
*Before the destruction of the ''Olympic Carrier'', Sagittaron natives made up 10.50% of the fleet. Solely for the purpose of argument, we assume that the ''Olympic Carrier'''s population breakdown was identical to the rest of the fleet's and that Sagittaron continues to make up 10.50% of the Fleet's total population.
*The figures from the Roslin faction can be viewed in several ways:
<div style="float:right; margin:10px">[[Image:Demographics1.png]]</div>
:*ASSUMPTION 1: All Gemenons and Capricans jumped to Kobol with the Roslin faction.
::*Caprica: 6,250 persons (13.06%)
::*Gemenon: 9,500 persons (19.85%)
::*Sagittaron: 5,026 persons (10.50%)
::*Others: 27,081 (56.59%) 
<div style="float:right; margin:10px">[[Image:Demographics2.png]]</div>
:*ASSUMPTION 2: All Gemenons jumped to Kobol with the Roslin faction, lured by the "religion card", but Caprican portion of the Roslin faction was representative of the Fleet.
::*Caprica: 28,204 persons (58.93%)
::*Gemenon: 9,500 persons (19.85%)
::*Sagittaron: 5,026 persons (10.50%)
::*Others: 5,127 persons (10.72%) 
<div style="float:right; margin:10px">[[Image:Demographics3.png]]</div>
:*ASSUMPTION 3: Caprican and Gemenon portions of the Roslin faction were representative of the fleet.
::*Caprica: 16,617 persons (34.72%)
::*Gemenon: 25,258 persons (52.78%)
::*Sagittaron: 5,026 persons (10.50%)
::*Others: 956 (2.00%) 
*Although it is plausible that the Caprican population is substantially larger than the other colonies, as ''Colonial Heavy 798'' was in the vicinity when the attack began, and was the nucleus around which the fleet rallied, it is unlikely that the populations of each colony are grossly unequal, or else the [[Quorum of Twelve]] would be a very poor system of government. The likeliest scenario is therefore probably somewhere in between Assumptions 1 and 2, with nearly all of the Gemenon population (drawn by the "religion card") and a large portion of the Caprican population leaving with Roslin.
*Alternatively, it is in fact possible that the populations of the colonies were grossly unequal. Though the structure of the [[Quorum of Twelve]] appears to maintain at least a fiction that the colonies were roughly equal, we know next to nothing about how the governmental system of the colonies was established or evolved over time. Indeed, the United States Senate, for example, by design expressly assumes that the various states constituting it are 'equal' even though this is clearly not the case in terms of their respective populations. Furthermore, the fact that a system of government is 'poor' or else not representatively proportional does not mean it cannot actually be implemented and even survive for long periods of time.

As for population distribution, we know the population of ''Galactica'' (2,693 as of [[Water]]), the ''Olympic Carrier'' (1,345 as of [[33]]) and ''Astral Queen'' (1,500 as of [[Bastille Day]], [[List of retcons (RDM)|retconned]] up from 500 in the Miniseries). There are 176 civillians in the cargo hold of [[Colonial One]] in "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]". The fleet is stated at about 75 ships in "[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]", retconned up from 40 in the mini.
*Going by the 75 ship count, the remaining ships besides ''Galactica'' and the ''Astral Queen'' each carry about 600 persons on average.
*The 23 ships that left with the [[Laura Roslin faction]], apart from the ''Astral Queen'', would have an average population of about 720 persons per ship.

==Notes==
In the [[Miniseries]], astute viewers may recognize three spacecraft with notable resemblances of ships from other SF universes. These ships aren't considered a [[Canon|canonical]] part of the series or the Fleet, but their appearance adds a bit of humor and pays homage to other notable science fiction and their creative staff.

* ''Serenity'', the central ship from the TV series "[[Wikipedia:Firefly (TV series)|Firefly]]" and the motion picture, "[[Wikipedia:Serenity (film)|Serenity]]", [[:Image:SerenityBSGMini.JPG|appears briefly in the sky]] outside the window of a doctor's office where viewers first see [[Laura Roslin]]. The ship does not appear in the Fleet.

* The original USS [[Wikipedia:USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)|''Enterprise'' (NCC-1701)]] from the original ''[[Wikipedia:Star Trek: The Original Series|Star Trek]]'' TV series makes a cameo in the [[:Image:Enterprise in fleet.jpg|last shot of the Fleet]] as [[Elosha]] chants a prayer in the memorial service near the end of the Miniseries. Look to the upper right corner for the ship in a still frame. All season 1 opening credits use this shot, so ''Enterprise'' makes a very quick appearance with each of the first 13 episodes (This is best viewed from the [[Season 1 DVD]] set).

*The ill-fated [[Botanical Cruiser]] was added in homage to the [[Agro Ship]] from the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|original ''Battlestar Galactica'']] TV series, which in turn were the re-used models from the SF film ''[[Wikipedia:Silent Running|Silent Running]]'', a Universal/MCA movie that special effects guru [[John Dykstra]] worked on a few years prior to the Original Series. The ship reappears in the regular series, despite its destruction in the Miniseries, suggesting that similar ships survive and exist in the Fleet.

==See Also==
[[:Category:Colonial Craft|Colonial Craft]]

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial]]
[[Category: Terminology]]
[[Category:RDM]]

[[de:Die Flotte (RDM)]]

Gaius Baltar

2006-10-07T09:12:37Z

Maserati1945: /* Currently... */

:''This page discusses the unwitting betrayer of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol in the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]]. For information on the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]] character that intentionally betrays the [[The Twelve Colonies (TOS)|Twelve Colonies of Man]], see [[Baltar (TOS)]].''

{{Character Data
|photo= Season 3 Baltar.jpg
|colony= [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]]
|birthname= Gaius Baltar
|seen= Miniseries
|marital status= Single, in a relationship with a [[Cylon-Related_Hallucinations#Baltar.27s_Internal_Six|hallucination of Number Six]]. Previously involved with [[Caprica-Six|the "real" Number Six]] and [[Gina]].
|role= President of [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|the Twelve Colonies]]
|actor= [[James Callis]]
}}

Dr. '''Gaius Baltar''' is a brilliant scientist. Elegantly dressed and aesthetically handsome, with the affected humility of the truly arrogant, Baltar is a deeply flawed person and almost pathologically narcissist. Beneath his outstanding abilities lurks a dramatic weakness of character that leads humanity to disaster.

Baltar is currently President of the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]], succeeding President [[Laura Roslin]] ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

__TOC__

== Background ==

* Dr. Baltar was formerly a lead defense systems developer working for the [[Colonial Ministry of Defense]] and came to prominence as a computer technology designer, having won three [[Magnate Prize]]s.
* He networks with others well, and became personal friends with President [[Richard Adar]].
* Baltar becomes responsible for the design of the critical [[Command Navigation Program]] (CNP) used throughout the [[Colonial Fleet]].
* Baltar's scientific prowess seems strongest in the medical and biological fields ([[Epiphanies]]). As a result of his lesser (although still advanced) computer programming skills, he seeks the help (and as a byproduct, the affections of) a [[Caprica Six|young woman]] to aid him with the CNP.
* Baltar's two-year affair with the mysterious woman-- even to the extent of using code she herself wrote to overcome shortfalls in his CNP -- allowed her unrestricted access to some of the most sensitive systems of the Colonial defenses.
*Baltar's involvement with his blonde assistant does not stop him from dalliances with other women during this time, right up to when his assistant confronts Baltar and a lover in bed.

==Character History at a Glance==
* Baltar learns that his "corporate spy" lover is in fact a new type of Cylon -- a [[Cylon agent|Cylon in human form]], able to mimic human beings down to the smallest detail, who altered his CNP with [[backdoor]]s to subvert any CNP-equipped ship.
[[image:Mini-Baltar_Six.jpg|thumb|left|300px|[[Gaius Baltar]] and [[Caprica-Six|Number Six]] kissing in the [[Miniseries]]. (C. SciFi Channel)]]
*Appalled by the fact that his sexual folly has led to the virtual holocaust of humanity, Baltar is nevertheless determined not only to survive but also avoid having his unintended treachery revealed.
* Baltar is rescued from Caprica following the forced-landing of a Colonial [[Raptor]] -- at the cost of [[Karl Agathon|one of the crew staying behind]] ([[Miniseries]])
* Baltar is plagued by visions of Number Six that only he can see and hear. He cannot be sure whether this is a result of his own guilt at his actions or whether -- as she initially claims -- she is part of a chip that has been implanted in his brain<ref name="chip">The idea that Six is an actual chip in Baltar's head was dismissed by Dr. [[Cottle]]'s image scan of Baltar's head. See [[Gaius Baltar#Speculation: The Real Baltar?|the section on alternate reasons for Six's existence]] for more.</ref>.
*Baltar is put to work trying to devise a means of detecting these humanoid Cylons. He luckily exposes [[Aaron Doral]] as a Cylon agent ([[Miniseries]]), using little more than invented [[technobabble]] to convince [[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]].
*Baltar eventually develops a genuine detector. This, together with his survival of a foiled attempt to expose him as a traitor ([[Six Degrees of Separation]]), firmly establishes his credentials within the Fleet's hierarchy.
*With this new-found trust, and despite his willingness to deliberately conceal vital information, such as [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|"Boomer" Valerii's]] true status as a [[Cylon agent]] ([[Flesh and Bone]]), Baltar enters the realm of political leadership, first as the Representative for [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] on the [[Quorum of Twelve]], and then as the newly-elected Vice President of the Colonies ([[Colonial Day]]).
* The virtual Six continues to help and hinder Baltar, gradually drawing him to a point of near-open acceptance and participation in Cylon plans and activities ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). Whether by coincidence or design, Six manipulates Baltar through repeated threats of exposing his involvement with the destruction of the Colonies ("[[33]],", "[[Six Degrees of Separation]]"), while also appearing to aid him by giving information that [[The Hand of God (RDM)|appears insightful or inspired]] to help the Colonials.
[[image:Scattered-Baltar_Six.jpg|thumb|[[Gaius Baltar]] and [[Number Six]] seeing "the shape of things to come" in "[[Scattered]]". (C. Universal Studios)]]
*Baltar is subjected to a final revelation of his role with the Cylons (as virtual Six sees it) when "the future" is revealed to him on [[Kobol]], in the form of the first of "God's new generation of children" ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]).

[[Image:Baltarixvalleydarkness.jpg|Number Six showing Baltar the clearing filled with human bones, telling him they were from human sacrifices.|thumb]]
* While stranded on Kobol after a crash landing, Baltar's virtual Six warns him that the Colonial religion is a falsehood to cover up atrocities of their nature.
*On Kobol, Baltar shoots [[Crashdown]] in the back, killing him instantly, to save [[Cally]] from a practically suicidal and unnecessary attack on a Cylon missile battery.<ref>The act of killing Crashdown appears to have led to a dramatic change in Baltar's attitude toward hurting anyone directly. When Cally tries to blackmail him after they return from Kobol, Baltar is somewhat rough with her. When he visits Tyrol and Boomer in the brig, he does not hesitate to inject Tyrol with fatal drugs to blackmail Boomer into giving Cylon secrets. Baltar's humanitarian acts to the Six copy known as Gina also suggests Baltar's attitude in the care of Cylons is further changing. More and more, Baltar appears to prefer direct intervention and is less cowardly in his attitude.</ref>. The group are eventually rescued by the Raptors. Baltar tells the [[SAR]] team that Crashdown died a hero in the fight, and Chief Tyrol reluctantly corroborates his story ([[Fragged]]).
*Back on ''Galactica'', Cally blackmails Baltar into making it a priority to prove that Chief Tyrol is not a Cylon, as Col. Tigh suspects, or Cally would reveal the truth of Crashdown's death.
* Incensed at this ingratitude, Baltar gambles that the [[brig|jailed]] Boomer knows of the number of Cylons in the Fleet, and blackmails her into doing so, using Tyrol's life.
[[image:brainscan.jpg|Baltar recieves his brain scan from Dr. Cottle, as Six watches on in amusement.|thumb]]
*Questioning his own sanity after his virtual Six claims that he was generally crazy, Baltar has a brain scan performed in [[sickbay]] by Dr. [[Cottle]] which confirms no "foreign objects" are present in his head.
*Baltar is ready to believe that he is truly insane until he hears [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica-Sharon]] discuss Valerii's pregnancy with a Cylon/Human hybrid child from his observation room. Six tells Baltar earlier that "their child" would be born in that cell, and this leads Baltar to realize that Six ''must'' be real because his subconscious couldn't have known that ([[Home, Part II]]).
*When [[D'anna Biers]] films a documentary about life aboard ''Galactica'', Six urges Baltar to give an interview to try to win people over to thinking that he should be running the Fleet. Baltar performs badly as he begins his interview but, fortunately, his interview is interrupted by a Cylon attack that Biers chooses to film instead ([[Final Cut]]).
*Baltar aids in trying to overcome the Cylon [[logic bomb]] which devastates ''Galactica's'' [[computers]]. Tigh's dislike of Baltar's involvement in this problem makes the scientist edgy enough to retort, "I'm sorry. Do you want to survive this one or not, Colonel?" ([[Flight of the Phoenix]])
[[image:baltargina.jpg|Baltar with Gina, the Cylon prisoner from ''Pegasus''.|thumb]]

*[[Helena Cain|Admiral Helena Cain]] requests that Baltar examine ''Pegasus' '' own Cylon prisoner to see what information he could glean from it. Baltar is horrified to discover the Cylon was a terribly abused and tortured copy of Number Six named "[[Gina]]". Baltar vows to help her and begins by having her restraints removed and bringing food to her ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]).
*Over the course of his examination of Gina, he uncovers both her wish to die and the secret of the Cylon [[Resurrection Ship]]. He passes this information to Adama and Admiral Cain, who develop an [[Attack on the Resurrection Ship|operation to destroy it]] ([[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]).
*Baltar continues to spend time with Gina, eventually helping her escape from the brig. He tells Gina that he can hide her, and also that he loves her. Gina goes on to kill Cain and escapes from ''Pegasus'' through unexplained means([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]).

*To many, Dr. Baltar appears to exhibit more odd behavior than what may be considered the expected eccentricity of a genius. Crewmembers on ''Galactica'' find him mumbling with himself or discovering him in places they do not expect, such as aboard battlestar ''Pegasus'' to see its new commander, [[Jack Fisk]].
*Torn between the "flesh and blood" copy of the [[Number Six]] copy, Gina, the demands of his internal Number Six, and his continuing attempt to cover his own multiple duplicities, Baltar becomes more aggressive and confrontational. With President Roslin's advice to abort the Cylon-hybrid fetus of the incarcerated [[Sharon Valerii]], Baltar reacts to defend it as if it were his own child. Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] admonishes Baltar, telling him that, on Roslin's death, he will become President and that he needs to behave like one.
*Desperate to save Valerii's fetus, Baltar reviews Dr. [[Cottle]]'s medical tests and performs experiments of his own, learning a striking revelation: the blood of the fetus can destroy cancer and repair its damage to human tissue.<ref name="stemcells">According to the writer's original planning, this was due to the presence of Cylon [[Wikipedia:stem cells|stem cells]] in the fetus's blood. This explanation was absent in the final shooting script.</ref> With Admiral Adama's permission, he injects the dying President Roslin with some of the fetal blood, which works miraculously, saving both Roslin and Valerii's child by circumstance.
*After saving Roslin's life, Baltar reads the letter given to him in the event of her death, in which she says he lacks compassion and asks him to open his heart if he becomes president. Furious, and goaded on by Six who tells him that Roslin doesn't trust him, Baltar delivers the nuclear warhead used for the Cylon detector to Gina and her militant [[Demand Peace]] movement. ([[Epiphanies]]).
*Baltar keeps his [[fumarello]] supply fresh by trading in the [[black market (organization)|black market]] through new ''Pegasus'' Commander [[Jack Fisk]]. Not realizing that Fisk had been murdered, the scientist visits Fisk's quarters, only to meet Captain [[Lee Adama]], who has starten an investigation on the black market and Fisk's murder. Baltar truthfully tells Adama that he knows nothing of Fisk's murder, but Adama correctly deduces Baltar's association with Fisk and the black market since the "Caprica Imperials" fumarellos are a known favorite of Baltar's.
*Baltar is also unaware that his involvement in the destruction of the Colonies is partially revealed. In ''Galactica's'' sickbay, Laura Roslin recalled those final days on Caprica, and remembered Baltar in the company of a woman on Caprica who she knows now is a [[Number Six|Cylon agent]].
*Baltar is summoned to ''[[Colonial One]]'', where Roslin offers him, without explanation, the chance to resign from the Vice Presidency to return to his studies. Baltar becomes immediately suspicious (and frightened) in Roslin's succinct and direct vote of no-confidence in her vice president. Realizing that the Vice Presidency now has greater importance (if nothing other than to save his own hide), Baltar turns down what Roslin calls a "one-time offer" to save himself as he saved Roslin on her deathbed ([[Black Market]]).

[[Image:Baltarlaydownburdensii.jpg|Gaius Baltar as President, from ''Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II''.|thumb]]
*Dr. Baltar decides (with no small influence from Six and [[Tom Zarek]]) to run for President in the coming Colonial Elections ([[The Captain's Hand]]).

*Roslin is declared the winner of the elections, but is caught by Adama for manipulating the tally. Baltar is declared president. While Baltar demands an investigation initially, he backs down under Adama's glare.
*President Baltar orders the Fleet to return to the marginally habitable planet [[New Caprica]] seconds after his inauguration. Baltar shows incompetency as president a few days later, when he orders the colonization of the planet rather than further investigation into the destruction of ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' and two other ships (he correctly guesses that the conflagration was started by [[Gina]]).

==Currently...==
A year passes. On [[New Caprica]], Baltar indulges in women, appears unsympathetic to the supply and resource problems plaguing the new colony, whose inhabitants continue to live in tents. The public appears quite displeased with his administration.

The Cylon armada finds the planet, which prompts the return of the dormant virtual Number Six, who observes it to Baltar as "judgement day" at last. Copies of a [[Number Five|Five]], [[Number Six]], and [[Number Eight|Eight]] meet with Baltar and his cabinet, recommending surrender. Baltar soon realizes, after she speaks, that the Number Six copy appearing before him was in fact [[Caprica-Six|''his'' Six]], the reincarnated personality he had a relationship on Caprica (and who was the key agent in the compromising of the [[CNP]]).

The Cylon agents (or leaders, as the case may be) claim that they found the planet by accident, due to trace radiation from a nuclear explosion; the one caused by the bomb Baltar donated to [[Gina]]. Baltar formally surrenders to the Cylons, whom had already began their occupation of the colony ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

After several months of Cylon occupation, it is clear that the citizens of New Caprica are very displeased with their president. Baltar fears for his life and turns down public appearances, such as the New Caprica Police Academy graduation ([[New Caprica Police]]), to avoid assassination attempts ([[Occupation]]).

==Notes==
*There is speculation that Gaius Baltar could be a Cylon agent himself. See the [[Cylon agent speculation#Gaius Baltar?|Cylon Speculation]] article for the pros and cons of this theory.
*[[Ron Moore]] has stated in several episode commentaries that when the role of "Gaius Baltar" was originally written in the script, the writing team never intended Baltar to have a "funny" aspect, but James Callis himself decided to play up that aspect of the frantic predicaments Baltar finds himself in during the [[Miniseries]] (which although the writers never anticipated, they enjoyed, and started writing him with that in mind).
*According to [[Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion]], [[Edward James Olmos]] and [[Mary McDonnell]] were hand-picked for their roles, while the rest of the characters were cast by audition: among the actors in the running for the role of "Gaius Baltar" was ''Two and a Half Men''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s [[Wikipedia:Jon Cryer|Jon Cryer]], though the role ultimately went to [[James Callis]]. Callis was suggested by Angela Mancuso, who ran the studio at the time, who knew him from the ''Helen of Troy'' miniseries, in which he played Menelaus.

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{start box}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown)''|title=Caprican delegate to the [[Quorum of Twelve]]|after=''(unknown)''}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown)''|title=[[Government|Vice-President of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol]]|after=[[Tom Zarek]]|}}
{{succession box|before=[[Laura Roslin]]|title=[[Government|President of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol]]|after=Incumbent}}
{{end box}}

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Baltar, Gaius]]
[[Category:Characters|Baltar, Gaius]]
[[Category:Characters (RDM)|Baltar, Gaius]]
[[Category:People from Caprica|Baltar, Gaius]]
[[Category:RDM|Baltar, Gaius]]

{{featured article}}

Gaius Baltar

2006-10-07T09:12:07Z

Maserati1945: /* Currently... */

:''This page discusses the unwitting betrayer of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol in the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]]. For information on the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]] character that intentionally betrays the [[The Twelve Colonies (TOS)|Twelve Colonies of Man]], see [[Baltar (TOS)]].''

{{Character Data
|photo= Season 3 Baltar.jpg
|colony= [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]]
|birthname= Gaius Baltar
|seen= Miniseries
|marital status= Single, in a relationship with a [[Cylon-Related_Hallucinations#Baltar.27s_Internal_Six|hallucination of Number Six]]. Previously involved with [[Caprica-Six|the "real" Number Six]] and [[Gina]].
|role= President of [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|the Twelve Colonies]]
|actor= [[James Callis]]
}}

Dr. '''Gaius Baltar''' is a brilliant scientist. Elegantly dressed and aesthetically handsome, with the affected humility of the truly arrogant, Baltar is a deeply flawed person and almost pathologically narcissist. Beneath his outstanding abilities lurks a dramatic weakness of character that leads humanity to disaster.

Baltar is currently President of the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]], succeeding President [[Laura Roslin]] ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

__TOC__

== Background ==

* Dr. Baltar was formerly a lead defense systems developer working for the [[Colonial Ministry of Defense]] and came to prominence as a computer technology designer, having won three [[Magnate Prize]]s.
* He networks with others well, and became personal friends with President [[Richard Adar]].
* Baltar becomes responsible for the design of the critical [[Command Navigation Program]] (CNP) used throughout the [[Colonial Fleet]].
* Baltar's scientific prowess seems strongest in the medical and biological fields ([[Epiphanies]]). As a result of his lesser (although still advanced) computer programming skills, he seeks the help (and as a byproduct, the affections of) a [[Caprica Six|young woman]] to aid him with the CNP.
* Baltar's two-year affair with the mysterious woman-- even to the extent of using code she herself wrote to overcome shortfalls in his CNP -- allowed her unrestricted access to some of the most sensitive systems of the Colonial defenses.
*Baltar's involvement with his blonde assistant does not stop him from dalliances with other women during this time, right up to when his assistant confronts Baltar and a lover in bed.

==Character History at a Glance==
* Baltar learns that his "corporate spy" lover is in fact a new type of Cylon -- a [[Cylon agent|Cylon in human form]], able to mimic human beings down to the smallest detail, who altered his CNP with [[backdoor]]s to subvert any CNP-equipped ship.
[[image:Mini-Baltar_Six.jpg|thumb|left|300px|[[Gaius Baltar]] and [[Caprica-Six|Number Six]] kissing in the [[Miniseries]]. (C. SciFi Channel)]]
*Appalled by the fact that his sexual folly has led to the virtual holocaust of humanity, Baltar is nevertheless determined not only to survive but also avoid having his unintended treachery revealed.
* Baltar is rescued from Caprica following the forced-landing of a Colonial [[Raptor]] -- at the cost of [[Karl Agathon|one of the crew staying behind]] ([[Miniseries]])
* Baltar is plagued by visions of Number Six that only he can see and hear. He cannot be sure whether this is a result of his own guilt at his actions or whether -- as she initially claims -- she is part of a chip that has been implanted in his brain<ref name="chip">The idea that Six is an actual chip in Baltar's head was dismissed by Dr. [[Cottle]]'s image scan of Baltar's head. See [[Gaius Baltar#Speculation: The Real Baltar?|the section on alternate reasons for Six's existence]] for more.</ref>.
*Baltar is put to work trying to devise a means of detecting these humanoid Cylons. He luckily exposes [[Aaron Doral]] as a Cylon agent ([[Miniseries]]), using little more than invented [[technobabble]] to convince [[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]].
*Baltar eventually develops a genuine detector. This, together with his survival of a foiled attempt to expose him as a traitor ([[Six Degrees of Separation]]), firmly establishes his credentials within the Fleet's hierarchy.
*With this new-found trust, and despite his willingness to deliberately conceal vital information, such as [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|"Boomer" Valerii's]] true status as a [[Cylon agent]] ([[Flesh and Bone]]), Baltar enters the realm of political leadership, first as the Representative for [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] on the [[Quorum of Twelve]], and then as the newly-elected Vice President of the Colonies ([[Colonial Day]]).
* The virtual Six continues to help and hinder Baltar, gradually drawing him to a point of near-open acceptance and participation in Cylon plans and activities ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). Whether by coincidence or design, Six manipulates Baltar through repeated threats of exposing his involvement with the destruction of the Colonies ("[[33]],", "[[Six Degrees of Separation]]"), while also appearing to aid him by giving information that [[The Hand of God (RDM)|appears insightful or inspired]] to help the Colonials.
[[image:Scattered-Baltar_Six.jpg|thumb|[[Gaius Baltar]] and [[Number Six]] seeing "the shape of things to come" in "[[Scattered]]". (C. Universal Studios)]]
*Baltar is subjected to a final revelation of his role with the Cylons (as virtual Six sees it) when "the future" is revealed to him on [[Kobol]], in the form of the first of "God's new generation of children" ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]).

[[Image:Baltarixvalleydarkness.jpg|Number Six showing Baltar the clearing filled with human bones, telling him they were from human sacrifices.|thumb]]
* While stranded on Kobol after a crash landing, Baltar's virtual Six warns him that the Colonial religion is a falsehood to cover up atrocities of their nature.
*On Kobol, Baltar shoots [[Crashdown]] in the back, killing him instantly, to save [[Cally]] from a practically suicidal and unnecessary attack on a Cylon missile battery.<ref>The act of killing Crashdown appears to have led to a dramatic change in Baltar's attitude toward hurting anyone directly. When Cally tries to blackmail him after they return from Kobol, Baltar is somewhat rough with her. When he visits Tyrol and Boomer in the brig, he does not hesitate to inject Tyrol with fatal drugs to blackmail Boomer into giving Cylon secrets. Baltar's humanitarian acts to the Six copy known as Gina also suggests Baltar's attitude in the care of Cylons is further changing. More and more, Baltar appears to prefer direct intervention and is less cowardly in his attitude.</ref>. The group are eventually rescued by the Raptors. Baltar tells the [[SAR]] team that Crashdown died a hero in the fight, and Chief Tyrol reluctantly corroborates his story ([[Fragged]]).
*Back on ''Galactica'', Cally blackmails Baltar into making it a priority to prove that Chief Tyrol is not a Cylon, as Col. Tigh suspects, or Cally would reveal the truth of Crashdown's death.
* Incensed at this ingratitude, Baltar gambles that the [[brig|jailed]] Boomer knows of the number of Cylons in the Fleet, and blackmails her into doing so, using Tyrol's life.
[[image:brainscan.jpg|Baltar recieves his brain scan from Dr. Cottle, as Six watches on in amusement.|thumb]]
*Questioning his own sanity after his virtual Six claims that he was generally crazy, Baltar has a brain scan performed in [[sickbay]] by Dr. [[Cottle]] which confirms no "foreign objects" are present in his head.
*Baltar is ready to believe that he is truly insane until he hears [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica-Sharon]] discuss Valerii's pregnancy with a Cylon/Human hybrid child from his observation room. Six tells Baltar earlier that "their child" would be born in that cell, and this leads Baltar to realize that Six ''must'' be real because his subconscious couldn't have known that ([[Home, Part II]]).
*When [[D'anna Biers]] films a documentary about life aboard ''Galactica'', Six urges Baltar to give an interview to try to win people over to thinking that he should be running the Fleet. Baltar performs badly as he begins his interview but, fortunately, his interview is interrupted by a Cylon attack that Biers chooses to film instead ([[Final Cut]]).
*Baltar aids in trying to overcome the Cylon [[logic bomb]] which devastates ''Galactica's'' [[computers]]. Tigh's dislike of Baltar's involvement in this problem makes the scientist edgy enough to retort, "I'm sorry. Do you want to survive this one or not, Colonel?" ([[Flight of the Phoenix]])
[[image:baltargina.jpg|Baltar with Gina, the Cylon prisoner from ''Pegasus''.|thumb]]

*[[Helena Cain|Admiral Helena Cain]] requests that Baltar examine ''Pegasus' '' own Cylon prisoner to see what information he could glean from it. Baltar is horrified to discover the Cylon was a terribly abused and tortured copy of Number Six named "[[Gina]]". Baltar vows to help her and begins by having her restraints removed and bringing food to her ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]).
*Over the course of his examination of Gina, he uncovers both her wish to die and the secret of the Cylon [[Resurrection Ship]]. He passes this information to Adama and Admiral Cain, who develop an [[Attack on the Resurrection Ship|operation to destroy it]] ([[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]).
*Baltar continues to spend time with Gina, eventually helping her escape from the brig. He tells Gina that he can hide her, and also that he loves her. Gina goes on to kill Cain and escapes from ''Pegasus'' through unexplained means([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]).

*To many, Dr. Baltar appears to exhibit more odd behavior than what may be considered the expected eccentricity of a genius. Crewmembers on ''Galactica'' find him mumbling with himself or discovering him in places they do not expect, such as aboard battlestar ''Pegasus'' to see its new commander, [[Jack Fisk]].
*Torn between the "flesh and blood" copy of the [[Number Six]] copy, Gina, the demands of his internal Number Six, and his continuing attempt to cover his own multiple duplicities, Baltar becomes more aggressive and confrontational. With President Roslin's advice to abort the Cylon-hybrid fetus of the incarcerated [[Sharon Valerii]], Baltar reacts to defend it as if it were his own child. Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] admonishes Baltar, telling him that, on Roslin's death, he will become President and that he needs to behave like one.
*Desperate to save Valerii's fetus, Baltar reviews Dr. [[Cottle]]'s medical tests and performs experiments of his own, learning a striking revelation: the blood of the fetus can destroy cancer and repair its damage to human tissue.<ref name="stemcells">According to the writer's original planning, this was due to the presence of Cylon [[Wikipedia:stem cells|stem cells]] in the fetus's blood. This explanation was absent in the final shooting script.</ref> With Admiral Adama's permission, he injects the dying President Roslin with some of the fetal blood, which works miraculously, saving both Roslin and Valerii's child by circumstance.
*After saving Roslin's life, Baltar reads the letter given to him in the event of her death, in which she says he lacks compassion and asks him to open his heart if he becomes president. Furious, and goaded on by Six who tells him that Roslin doesn't trust him, Baltar delivers the nuclear warhead used for the Cylon detector to Gina and her militant [[Demand Peace]] movement. ([[Epiphanies]]).
*Baltar keeps his [[fumarello]] supply fresh by trading in the [[black market (organization)|black market]] through new ''Pegasus'' Commander [[Jack Fisk]]. Not realizing that Fisk had been murdered, the scientist visits Fisk's quarters, only to meet Captain [[Lee Adama]], who has starten an investigation on the black market and Fisk's murder. Baltar truthfully tells Adama that he knows nothing of Fisk's murder, but Adama correctly deduces Baltar's association with Fisk and the black market since the "Caprica Imperials" fumarellos are a known favorite of Baltar's.
*Baltar is also unaware that his involvement in the destruction of the Colonies is partially revealed. In ''Galactica's'' sickbay, Laura Roslin recalled those final days on Caprica, and remembered Baltar in the company of a woman on Caprica who she knows now is a [[Number Six|Cylon agent]].
*Baltar is summoned to ''[[Colonial One]]'', where Roslin offers him, without explanation, the chance to resign from the Vice Presidency to return to his studies. Baltar becomes immediately suspicious (and frightened) in Roslin's succinct and direct vote of no-confidence in her vice president. Realizing that the Vice Presidency now has greater importance (if nothing other than to save his own hide), Baltar turns down what Roslin calls a "one-time offer" to save himself as he saved Roslin on her deathbed ([[Black Market]]).

[[Image:Baltarlaydownburdensii.jpg|Gaius Baltar as President, from ''Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II''.|thumb]]
*Dr. Baltar decides (with no small influence from Six and [[Tom Zarek]]) to run for President in the coming Colonial Elections ([[The Captain's Hand]]).

*Roslin is declared the winner of the elections, but is caught by Adama for manipulating the tally. Baltar is declared president. While Baltar demands an investigation initially, he backs down under Adama's glare.
*President Baltar orders the Fleet to return to the marginally habitable planet [[New Caprica]] seconds after his inauguration. Baltar shows incompetency as president a few days later, when he orders the colonization of the planet rather than further investigation into the destruction of ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' and two other ships (he correctly guesses that the conflagration was started by [[Gina]]).

==Currently...==
A year passes. On [[New Caprica]], Baltar indulges in women, appears unsympathetic to the supply and resource problems plaguing the new colony, whose inhabitants continue to live in tents. The public appears quite displeased with his administration.

The Cylon armada finds the planet, which prompts the return of the dormant virtual Number Six, who observes it to Baltar as "judgement day" at last. Copies of a [[Number Five|Five]], [[Number Six]], and [[Number Eight|Eight]] meet with Baltar and his cabinet, recommending surrender. Baltar soon realizes, after she speaks, that the Number Six copy appearing before him was in fact [[Caprica-Six|''his'' Six]], the reincarnated personality he had a relationship on Caprica (and who was the key agent in the compromising of the [[CNP]]).

The Cylon agents (or leaders, as the case may be) claim that they found the planet by accident, due to trace radiation from a nuclear explosion; the one caused by the bomb Baltar donated to [[Gina]]. Baltar formally surrenders to the Cylons, whom had already began their occupation of the colony ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

After several months of Cylon occupation, it is clear that the citizen's of New Caprica are very displeased with their president. Baltar fears for his life and turns down public appearances, such as the New Caprica Police Academy graduation ([[New Caprica Police]]), to avoid assassination attempts ([[Occupation]]).

==Notes==
*There is speculation that Gaius Baltar could be a Cylon agent himself. See the [[Cylon agent speculation#Gaius Baltar?|Cylon Speculation]] article for the pros and cons of this theory.
*[[Ron Moore]] has stated in several episode commentaries that when the role of "Gaius Baltar" was originally written in the script, the writing team never intended Baltar to have a "funny" aspect, but James Callis himself decided to play up that aspect of the frantic predicaments Baltar finds himself in during the [[Miniseries]] (which although the writers never anticipated, they enjoyed, and started writing him with that in mind).
*According to [[Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion]], [[Edward James Olmos]] and [[Mary McDonnell]] were hand-picked for their roles, while the rest of the characters were cast by audition: among the actors in the running for the role of "Gaius Baltar" was ''Two and a Half Men''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s [[Wikipedia:Jon Cryer|Jon Cryer]], though the role ultimately went to [[James Callis]]. Callis was suggested by Angela Mancuso, who ran the studio at the time, who knew him from the ''Helen of Troy'' miniseries, in which he played Menelaus.

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

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{{succession box|before=''(unknown)''|title=Caprican delegate to the [[Quorum of Twelve]]|after=''(unknown)''}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown)''|title=[[Government|Vice-President of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol]]|after=[[Tom Zarek]]|}}
{{succession box|before=[[Laura Roslin]]|title=[[Government|President of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol]]|after=Incumbent}}
{{end box}}

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Baltar, Gaius]]
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[[Category:People from Caprica|Baltar, Gaius]]
[[Category:RDM|Baltar, Gaius]]

{{featured article}}

Viper Mark VII

2006-10-06T05:29:40Z

Maserati1945: /* Avionics */

:''This article discusses the newer Viper-class fighters seen in the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]]. For information on the older, generally obsolete Viper Mark II fighter from the same series, see [[Viper Mark II]]. For the Viper used in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]] and in [[Galactica 1980]], see [[Viper (TOS)]].''
{{Ship Data
| image= BSG-Mark-VII.jpg
| title= Viper Mk. VII
| race= Colonial
| type= Military
| ftl= No
| propol= 3 x turbothrust engines mounted aft, [[RCS]] points<ref name="propol">Angular exhaust nozzle design suggest possible thrust-vectoring.</ref>
| crew= 1 pilot in Terrell ES 24C ejection seat. <ref name="camp">Ammunition used was same as older Viper models; the Mark VII guns appear to have a higher rate of fire. Armaments listings and ejector seat details from David Bassom's ''[[The Official Companion|Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion]]''.</ref>
| role= Space superiority fighter
| weapons= 3 [[KEW|Kinetic Energy Weapons]], missiles
| arm= 3 x forward-firing kinetic energy weapons ([[KEW]]), 2 mounted towards the outboard sections of the wings, 1 x mounted in the vertical stabiliser, Weapon hardpoints for mounting missiles / munitions pods, etc. under the wings.<ref name="camp"/>
| status= In current Colonial service
| length= 9.8643 meters<ref name="dim">Dimensions provided by [http://www.leestringer.com/ Lee Stringer], one of the VFX Animators of the miniseries. These are for the CGI models, which are based on but not identical to the fullsize props. Source: [http://www.starshipbuilder.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000012.html Starshipbuilder.com forums]</ref>
| height= 2.9508 meters<ref name="inflight">In flight, without landing gear. Landing gear adds approximately 0.5m.</ref>
| wingspan= 5.61 meters
}}
The '''Viper Mark VII''' was the [[Colonial Fleet]]'s latest update to the venerable [[Viper Mark II]] primary space superiority fighter / attack craft. Capable of atmospheric flight, the Viper is a single-seat craft mounting two kinetic energy weapons ([[KEW]]s), as well as having hardpoints beneath the wings for mounting missiles, munitions pods and other ordnance ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).

The Mark VII was the front-line variant of the Viper design, retaining the Mark II's general layout but adding fully integrated avionics that provide superior battle management and fight information for the pilot.

Ironically, it was the incorporation of the new integrated systems that prevented the majority of Mark VIIs from being effective during the Cylon attack: as with the majority of Colonial Fleet, the Mark VIIs suffer fatal computer system failures on contact with Cylon forces. Thanks to a [[Number Six|Cylon agent's]] relationship with Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]], scientist and programmer of the navigation software project, the [[CNP|navigational software]] in use onboard the majority of Colonial Fleet vessels contained backdoors that allow the Cylons to infiltrate a vessel's network by [[wireless]] signals and disable its power systems. While the problem could be overcome by removing the navigational upgrade compromised by the Cylons, this information is not discovered in time to be of major benefit to the surprised and hard-pressed Colonial forces.

== Technical Specifications ==

=== [[Computers#Avionics|Avionics]] ===
[[Image:Vipermk7interior 101 1080i.jpg|left|thumb|200px|Mark VII joystick, with few analog controls]]
The Mark VII cockpit is almost totally computerized. There are far fewer analog gauges and more reliance on a more powerful central flight computer. This gives the Mark VII pilot far greater control of the fighter as well as, presumably, greater targeting control in a dogfight.

However, the latest and last software upgrade, the [[CNP]] upgrade, introduced a fatal flaw (inserted by a [[Cylon agent]]) in the Mark VII that led to the virtual annihilation of most of these fighters in the opening wave of the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Cylon attack]].

The surviving Mark VII fighters on both ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' and ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' were likely retrofitted to older avionics packages to replace the compromised CNP, or other subsystems in the fighter were augmented or removed to minimize or eliminate further infiltration.

As of "[[Scar]]", ''Pegasus'' had begun to use her onboard construction facilities to produce replacement Vipers. Enough materials were mined in the asteroid field to produce two full squadrons. Presumably, these are Mark VII Vipers fitted with Cylon-proof avionics. Also, since ''Pegasus'' joined the fleet, the Mark IIs have been steadily phased out in favor of the retrofitted Mark VIIs, of which many were intact aboard ''Pegasus''.

=== Performance ===

*While the Mark II could rotate 180 degrees vertically in .35 seconds ([[Act of Contrition]]), it is presumed that the Mark VII has an equal or better performance ratio.

== Notes ==
[[Image:Markvii-pa.jpg|thumb|right|Production Art of Viper Mark VII on SCIFI.COM]]
* Since ''Galactica'' only had 40 Viper Mark IIs aboard as part of its museum, they needed as many fighters as possible. The remaining Mark VII's advanced computer systems were refitted to resist Cylon infiltration. However, since this is not how the Mark VII was designed to fly, the craft is increasingly more difficult to handle and can only be flown by the most experienced pilots such as [[Lee Adama|Apollo]] and [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]]. ''Galactica'' has roughly 6-8 Mark VIIs on board after the Cylon attack ([[Scattered]], [[Flight of the Phoenix]]). (Source: [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/ships/ships/|official Scifi.com series website])

* The stern section of a Viper is distinctive because of the offset "intakes" mounted just behind the cockpit. The port / starboard "intake" nacelles incorporate small but powerful reverse thrust engines that can quickly counter a Viper's forward momentum in an emergency ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).

* According to [[David Weddle]] during the [[Podcast:Scar#Act 2|Scar podcast]] the Mark VII cockpit design "was actually laid out based on, I think it's either the [[Wikipedia:F-16 Fighting Falcon|F-16]] or the [[Wikipedia:F/A-18 Hornet|F-18]]." The side-mounted control stick more closely resembles that of the F-16, which is appropriate given the "Viper" nickname of the jet (that was initially the General Dynamics codename for the project, which was in turn named for the [[Viper (TOS)|TOS Viper]]).

* Also revealed in the podcast for Scar is that the full cockpit interior for the Viper Mark VII was built for the episode "Scar". "Flight of the Phoenix" had paved the way for the construction of the full cockpit when "the line producers and the production designers figure[d] out ways to move money around that basically bought us this cockpit because we had built the [[Blackbird|stealth fighter]]." The cockpit interior may have been constructed at the same time the Blackbird was being built.

* Like the [[Viper (TOS)|Original Series' Viper]], the weapons fire of Vipers on the Re-Imagined Series is red.

* According to [[Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion]], when creating the design of the Viper Mark VII, [[Gary Hutzel]] took a prexisting design from the [[Video Game|2003 video game]] loosely based on a mix of the Original Series and upcoming [[Miniseries]], then "did some modifications, and that became the Viper Mark VII".

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

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Virgon Express

2006-10-06T05:26:47Z

Maserati1945:

{{Ship Data
| image= Galacticawatertankburst_102_1080i.jpg
| race= Colonial
| type= Civilian
| ftl= Yes
| img= Y
}}

The '''''Virgon Express''''' is a ship in the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] that relies on [[Battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]'' for water resources. She is alongside ''Galactica'' during water transfer and recycling operations when explosions occur within ''Galactica's'' port-side water storage tanks as a result of sabotage carried out by a then unknown [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] infiltration of ''Galactica's'' crew ([[Water]]). This ship appears to be another version of [[Flattop]]. ''Virgon Express'' is inverted when she docks with ''Galactica'', suggesting that her water receptacles are on the underside of her hull.

== Related Imagery ==

<gallery>
Image:Virgonexpressdock 102 1080i.jpg|''Virgon Express'' docking with ''Galactica''    
</gallery>

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Virgon Express

2006-10-06T05:26:24Z

Maserati1945:

{{Ship Data
| image= Galacticawatertankburst_102_1080i.jpg
| race= Colonial
| type= Civilian
| ftl= Yes
| img= Y
}}

The '''''Virgon Express''''' is a ship in the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] that relies on [[Battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]'' for water resources. She is alongside ''Galactica'' during water transfer and recycling operations when explosions occur within ''Galactica's'' port-side water storage tanks as a result of sabotage carried out by a then unknown [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] infiltration of ''Galactica's'' crew ([[Water]]). This ship appears to be another version of [[Flattop]]. However, ''Virgon Express'' is inverted when she docks with ''Galactica'', suggesting that her water receptacles are on the underside of her hull.

== Related Imagery ==

<gallery>
Image:Virgonexpressdock 102 1080i.jpg|''Virgon Express'' docking with ''Galactica''    
</gallery>

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[[de:Virgon Express]]

Virgon Express

2006-10-06T05:23:53Z

Maserati1945:

{{Ship Data
| image= Galacticawatertankburst_102_1080i.jpg
| race= Colonial
| type= Civilian
| ftl= Yes
| img= Y
}}

The '''''Virgon Express''''' is a ship in the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] that relies on [[Battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]'' for water resources. She is alongside ''Galactica'' during water transfer and recycling operations when explosions occur within ''Galactica's'' port-side water storage tanks as a result of sabotage carried out by a then unknown [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] infiltration of ''Galactica's'' crew ([[Water]]). This ship appears to be another version of [[Flattop]]. Based upon the way ''Virgon Express'' is inverted when it docks with ''Galactica'', her water recepticles are on the underside of her hull.

== Related Imagery ==

<gallery>
Image:Virgonexpressdock 102 1080i.jpg|''Virgon Express'' docking with ''Galactica''    
</gallery>

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[[de:Virgon Express]]

Blackbird

2006-09-20T20:18:23Z

Maserati1945: /* Design and Technology */

{{Ship Data
| image= Blackbird FotP.JPG
| title= Blackbird
| race= Colonial
| type= Military
| ftl= Yes
| crew= 1 pilot
| role= Prototype stealth infiltrator
| weapons= conventional missiles, could be armed with nuclear warheads
| status= Prototype destroyed
}}

The '''Blackbird''' is a prototype [[Colonial]] stealth fighter craft constructed by Chief Petty Officer [[Galen Tyrol]], his deck crews, and other members of ''[[Galactica]]''. This craft was meant to supplement the [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]], given the issues in maintaining the remaining craft aboard the [[battlestar]]. Chief Tyrol had originally intended just to build a standard Viper but ended up building a ship that was of more value to ''Galactica'' than another Viper.

== Design and Technology ==

The Blackbird is designed to use the Viper [[Launch tubes|launch tube]]s, and therefore shares the same general shape. It is built more for speed than for maneuverability. If it is armed, it likely fires the same ammunition as typical Vipers, though this has not yet been demonstrated.

It does not use metal for its skin since this metal was reserved for Viper repairs. Instead, on [[Karl Agathon]]'s suggestion, the Blackbird uses a carbon composite material, which makes it largely invisible to [[DRADIS]] scanning.

Along with the usual [[RCS]] mechanisms for directional control, the Blackbird is powered by four obsolete [[DDG-62]] engines (designed by [[Peter Laird]], a civilian aeronautical engineer) that came from the flight deck of a Colonial fleet ship named ''[[Baah Pakal]]''. One must speculate that since a typical Viper's engines are vulnerable to heat-seeking missiles ([[Miniseries]]), these must be as well. This would compromise its stealth features during powered flight. (This is less of a disadvantage in space than in atmospheric flight; a spacecraft's inertia is not disrupted by gravity, friction, and other factors an atmospheric-bound craft would be, and thus can fly straight almost indefinitely without firing its engines while in empty space.)

The Blackbird is [[FTL|Jump]]-capable, but is not equipped with a Colonial transponder, either for stealth purposes or due to supply shortages.

== ''Laura'' and Her Flight History ==
[[Image:Flight_of_the_Phoenix-Laura.jpg|thumb|A close-up of the cursive on the side of the Blackbird.]]
The first prototype is dubbed ''"Laura"'' in honor of President [[Laura Roslin]]. [[Kara Thrace]] pilots the maiden test flight, wherein she handily eludes her escort, [[Lee Adama]].

The following individuals aid CPO [[Galen Tyrol]] in ''Laura's'' construction:

* [[Anastasia Dualla]] improves communication systems.
* [[Anthony Figurski]]
* [[Cally]]
* [[Jammer]]
* [[Seelix]]
* [[Karl Agathon]] suggests the use of carbon composite materials for the Blackbird's skin.
* [[Saul Tigh]] offers the [[DDG-62]] engines.
* [[Kara Thrace]] aids in a few design principles and tests the craft.

Colonel Tigh originally denounces the project as frivolous, but later provides assistance in procuring the DDG-62 engines. Others among Tyrol's own deck crew also at first consider the project a waste of time, as noted through their initial reactions to Tyrol's proposal. However, Commander [[William Adama]] believes that the endeavor offers hope and purpose, and therefore permits it to continue despite the crisis with the [[Cylon]] [[logic bomb]] that has infected the ''Galactica'''s systems ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).

''Laura'' quickly proves her worth when Kara Thrace, by tacit request of Lee Adama, absconds with the Blackbird, claiming she is running a test flight for Admiral Cain. In reality, Starbuck has undertaken a reconnaissance mission to investigate a mysterious Cylon ship being escorted by two [[Basestar (RDM)|Basestars]] and many other support ships and fighters. ''Pegasus'' [[CAG]] [[Cole Taylor]] knows of the Blackbird but dismissed Thrace from the project and chose to use Raptors for his mission.

[[Image:Blackbird destroyed.png|thumb|left|The destruction of ''Laura'' during the [[Battle of the Resurrection Ship]].]]

Starbuck is able to approach the Cylon fleet and the unknown ship completely undetected by the Cylons. She takes picture after picture while flying into and through the superstructure of the vessel, Jumping away just as the 'Bird clears the vessel's bow. The lack of a Colonial transponder causes the Battlestars ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' and ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' to turn their Vipers on Thrace as she approaches the Fleet, both Battlestars' DRADIS systems marking her as a [[Raider]] by mistake. The Blackbird is in visual range of the Fleet long before DRADIS detects her approach.

Moments later, Admiral Cain receives detailed pictures of the unknown vessel, and [[Gaius Baltar]] eventually details the name and purpose of the [[Resurrection Ship]] ([[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]).

''Laura'' is later piloted by then-Lieutenant [[Lee Adama]] in the battle to disable the Resurrection Ship's FTL drive, preventing her escape so that Vipers can destroy it. While Adama is successful, a collision with a disabled [[Raptor]] seriously damages the Blackbird, requiring him to eject. While Adama is later rescued, it is likely that the ''Laura'' is destroyed ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]).
 

==Notes==
* Since the Blackbird was designed for stealth, not manuverability, it was logical that an FTL drive was added for advanced reconnaissance. The unused FTL drive perhaps came from a [[Raptor 305|Raptor]] that was scrapped for parts in "[[Fragged]]."
* The Blackbird's ungainly handling characteristics are quite evident during Starbuck's first test flight, as she spends the first several seconds out of the launch tube attempting to gain control over the craft ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).
*[[Wikipedia:Reinforced carbon-carbon|Carbon composites]] are a family of materials used in lightweight or high-temperature-resistant construction, of which a type is used in the nose and leading edges of the wings of [[Wikipedia:NASA|NASA]]'s [[Wikipedia:Space Transportation System|Space Shuttle Orbiter]]. Carbon composites are somewhat fragile, so impacts (even one from a champagne bottle, which Laura Roslin jokingly attempted to do as she christened the ship) may cause the material to splinter or break. It was damage to this material that caused the destruction of Space Shuttle ''Columbia'' on [[Wikipedia:STS-107|STS-107]].
*Executive Producer [[David Eick]] stated in his video blog that the Blackbird is "not a Viper", so it is not classed as a modified Viper model ("Viper Mark VIII", etc), but is an entirely distinct craft.
*The fighter's nickname creates a curious comparison with her namesake, Laura Roslin. The ailing but influential President Roslin and her rapid, secretive actions in her quest for Earth's location (including diverting Lt. Thrace from her original mission to destroy the Kobol basestar) as well as her savvy political work in "[[Colonial Day]]", are humorously similar in perspective to the abilities of "Laura", a structually weak, but highly agile and initially underestimated stealth fighter. Like President Roslin (the only known surviving official of the pre-holocaust Colonial [[government]]), the Blackbird is a unique commodity.
*The Blackbird is most likely named after the [[Wikipedia:Lockheed SR-71|SR-71 Blackbird]], an actual highspeed reconnaissance aircraft. The SR-71 not only shares the principle but also many design features. These include the engines pointing forward from the wings and also the swept long nose smoothing out on the sides.

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