Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:End of Line/Archive 1

2010-03-28T20:01:28Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Amanda dead? */

{{newsection link}}

== Amanda dead? ==

What actually led her to die [[User:CoreyDanian|Corey "Shadow" Danian]] 13:54, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

:I doubt that she died, we didn't actually see her land in the water, we just saw her step off the ledge. In all likelihood either Nestor or someone else (Vergis maybe) will grab her by the waist and pull her back onto the ledge. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Talk:End of Line/Archive 1

2010-03-28T20:01:11Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Amanda dead? */

Talk:Rebirth/Archive 1

2010-02-06T14:35:11Z

ManofTheAtom: /* The One True God */

{{newsection link}}

== The One True God ==

I was wondering, was it ever established on BSG where the notion of the existence of a One True God ever came from, or is that a lingering question that Caprica might still answer?

Like, who was the first person who believed in the existence of a OTG?
--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:24, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

:Not yet. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:40, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

::I doubt we'll see the specific origin. Just like in reality, the belief in a singular god can't really be traced back beyond a general time frame, even then, based only on archival data. It's got to be an idea that sprung forth from people trying to grasp onto an understanding of life and the universe, shedding old ideas in hopes of a better way, and can't be pinpointed anymore accurately than the idea of gods in general. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 23:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

:::The original character description for Sister Clarice before the Pilot was released mentioned "the results of her studies into the scriptures", but that's not canon yet. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:21, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

::::I remember that Elosha made a reference to a jealous God on Kobol who led to the eventual exodus from that planet. Hopefully that will be explored more deeply on Caprica. At one point it was assumed that the Temple of Five had been built by the Final Five, but now that we know that was not so, it leaves the question of who the five priests who worshiped "the one whose name cannot be spoken" really were. That's another question I hope Caprica answers. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 02:44, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::That was a deleted scene. Strange how everyone remembers that one. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 04:13, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::It helps that this site keeps a record of it, lol. Sometimes when I read the sentence from those pages on this site I do feel like I actually saw it on screen. Maybe the version of the episode that aired were I am had the scene. I just can't remember, it's been awhile.--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 13:44, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::::Or you saw it in the DVD deleted scenes collection? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:34, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::::I don't have the DVDs :)--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:35, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

==Cast list==
Anyone have the names from the closing credits? I could usually decipher them from the ''Battlestar Galactica'' airings (with some help from educated guessing), but one of the additional changes that came when they switched to "Syfy" is they crunched the credits even more, so I cannot make out any name. Nothing. Is there anyone who has the unobscured version and would like to share? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 23:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Rebirth/Archive 1

2010-02-06T13:45:25Z

ManofTheAtom: /* The One True God */

{{newsection link}}

== The One True God ==

I was wondering, was it ever established on BSG where the notion of the existence of a One True God ever came from, or is that a lingering question that Caprica might still answer?

Like, who was the first person who believed in the existence of a OTG?
--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:24, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

:Not yet. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:40, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

::I doubt we'll see the specific origin. Just like in reality, the belief in a singular god can't really be traced back beyond a general time frame, even then, based only on archival data. It's got to be an idea that sprung forth from people trying to grasp onto an understanding of life and the universe, shedding old ideas in hopes of a better way, and can't be pinpointed anymore accurately than the idea of gods in general. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 23:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

:::The original character description for Sister Clarice before the Pilot was released mentioned "the results of her studies into the scriptures", but that's not canon yet. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:21, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

::::I remember that Elosha made a reference to a jealous God on Kobol who led to the eventual exodus from that planet. Hopefully that will be explored more deeply on Caprica. At one point it was assumed that the Temple of Five had been built by the Final Five, but now that we know that was not so, it leaves the question of who the five priests who worshiped "the one whose name cannot be spoken" really were. That's another question I hope Caprica answers. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 02:44, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::That was a deleted scene. Strange how everyone remembers that one. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 04:13, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::It helps that this site keeps a record of it, lol. Sometimes when I read the sentence from those pages on this site I do feel like I actually saw it on screen. Maybe the version of the episode that aired were I am had the scene. I just can't remember, it's been awhile.--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 13:44, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

==Cast list==
Anyone have the names from the closing credits? I could usually decipher them from the ''Battlestar Galactica'' airings (with some help from educated guessing), but one of the additional changes that came when they switched to "Syfy" is they crunched the credits even more, so I cannot make out any name. Nothing. Is there anyone who has the unobscured version and would like to share? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 23:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Rebirth/Archive 1

2010-02-06T13:44:04Z

ManofTheAtom: /* The One True God */

{{newsection link}}

== The One True God ==

I was wondering, was it ever established on BSG where the notion of the existence of a One True God ever came from, or is that a lingering question that Caprica might still answer?

Like, who was the first person who believed in the existence of a OTG?
--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:24, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

:Not yet. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:40, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

::I doubt we'll see the specific origin. Just like in reality, the belief in a singular god can't really be traced back beyond a general time frame, even then, based only on archival data. It's got to be an idea that sprung forth from people trying to grasp onto an understanding of life and the universe, shedding old ideas in hopes of a better way, and can't be pinpointed anymore accurately than the idea of gods in general. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 23:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

:::The original character description for Sister Clarice before the Pilot was released mentioned "the results of her studies into the scriptures", but that's not canon yet. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:21, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

::::I remember that Elosha made a reference to a jealous God on Kobol who led to the eventual exodus from that planet. Hopefully that will be explored more deeply on Caprica. At one point it was assumed that the Temple of Five had been built by the Final Five, but now that we know that was not so, it leaves the question of who the five priests who worshiped "the one whose name cannot be spoken" really were. That's another question I hope Caprica answers. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 02:44, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

:::::That was a deleted scene. Strange how everyone remembers that one. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 04:13, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::It helps that this site keeps a record of it, lol. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 13:44, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

==Cast list==
Anyone have the names from the closing credits? I could usually decipher them from the ''Battlestar Galactica'' airings (with some help from educated guessing), but one of the additional changes that came when they switched to "Syfy" is they crunched the credits even more, so I cannot make out any name. Nothing. Is there anyone who has the unobscured version and would like to share? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 23:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Rebirth/Archive 1

2010-02-06T02:46:36Z

ManofTheAtom: /* The One True God */

{{newsection link}}

== The One True God ==

I was wondering, was it ever established on BSG where the notion of the existence of a One True God ever came from, or is that a lingering question that Caprica might still answer?

Like, who was the first person who believed in the existence of a OTG?
--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:24, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

:Not yet. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:40, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

::I doubt we'll see the specific origin. Just like in reality, the belief in a singular god can't really be traced back beyond a general time frame, even then, based only on archival data. It's got to be an idea that sprung forth from people trying to grasp onto an understanding of life and the universe, shedding old ideas in hopes of a better way, and can't be pinpointed anymore accurately than the idea of gods in general. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 23:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

:::The original character description for Sister Clarice before the Pilot was released mentioned "the results of her studies into the scriptures", but that's not canon yet. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:21, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

::::I remember that Elosha made a reference to a jealous God on Kobol who led to the eventual exodus from that planet. Hopefully that will be explored more deeply on Caprica. At one point it was assumed that the Temple of Five had been built by the Final Five, but now that we know that was not so, it leaves the question of who the five priests who worshiped "the one whose name cannot be spoken" really were. That's another question I hope Caprica answers. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 02:44, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

==Cast list==
Anyone have the names from the closing credits? I could usually decipher them from the ''Battlestar Galactica'' airings (with some help from educated guessing), but one of the additional changes that came when they switched to "Syfy" is they crunched the credits even more, so I cannot make out any name. Nothing. Is there anyone who has the unobscured version and would like to share? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 23:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Rebirth/Archive 1

2010-02-06T02:46:16Z

ManofTheAtom: /* The One True God */

{{newsection link}}

== The One True God ==

I was wondering, was it ever established on BSG where the notion of the existence of a One True God ever came from, or is that a lingering question that Caprica might still answer?

Like, who was the first person who believed in the existence of a OTG?
--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:24, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

:Not yet. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:40, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

::I doubt we'll see the specific origin. Just like in reality, the belief in a singular god can't really be traced back beyond a general time frame, even then, based only on archival data. It's got to be an idea that sprung forth from people trying to grasp onto an understanding of life and the universe, shedding old ideas in hopes of a better way, and can't be pinpointed anymore accurately than the idea of gods in general. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 23:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

:::The original character description for Sister Clarice before the Pilot was released mentioned "the results of her studies into the scriptures", but that's not canon yet. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:21, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

::::I remember that Elosha made a reference to a jealous God on Kobol who led to the eventual exodus from that planet. Hopefully that will be explored more deeply on Caprica.

At one point it was assumed that the Temple of Five had been built by the Final Five, but now that we know that was not so, it leaves the question of who the five priests who worshiped "the one whose name cannot be spoken" really were. That's another question I hope Caprica answers. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 02:44, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

==Cast list==
Anyone have the names from the closing credits? I could usually decipher them from the ''Battlestar Galactica'' airings (with some help from educated guessing), but one of the additional changes that came when they switched to "Syfy" is they crunched the credits even more, so I cannot make out any name. Nothing. Is there anyone who has the unobscured version and would like to share? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 23:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Rebirth/Archive 1

2010-02-06T02:44:01Z

ManofTheAtom: /* The One True God */

Talk:Rebirth/Archive 1

2010-01-30T14:24:56Z

ManofTheAtom: /* The One True God */

Talk:Rebirth/Archive 1

2010-01-30T14:24:36Z

ManofTheAtom: /* The One True God */ new section

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-05-24T20:08:21Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Religion Vs Technology */

== Move ==
Why move this? The way I understand this, this is still episode 20, but it will be lengthened to actually be 3 episodes long. So in a away there are 21/22 episodes even, and not 19. However, [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/06/battlestars-fin.html This] says that the season will be 11 hours and not 12, but that doesn't mean that we need to get rid of episode 19 already. Especially given that the finale will probably air in at least 2 parts. So it makes some sense to have separate episodes guides for two airings. By production numbers this would be one episode, but split apart by airdate numbers. Maybe we should wait for some further clarification. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:It could be split up into 3 parts in reruns. I think it would be easier to start with a single article and then split as necessary after it airs. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::If Sci Fi is gonna pull a Miniseries and air this thing in two parts, we should pull a Miniseries too and have [[Miniseries, Night 1|separate]] [[Miniseries, Night 2|articles]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Which we can do after we know where the break point is. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 09:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to split the article at this time. We won't know how things will be aired until they're actually aired. All we know for now is that the finale's been extended... that's it. Creating two or three sections based on something we have absolutely very little information on is just... ill-advised. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 13:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:The proposal wasn't a split, but a merge with 419 I think (the article exists. It just isn't linked to, because it's an empty skeleton). But the result is the same. The way I understand it, 419+420 will be the finale then, with both episodes running 3 hours together (incl. ads I guess). We'll see. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::Ah, ok. Sounded like it would be a split, with at least one additional article, seeing as each article would cover an hour. Anyway, we don't have enough information to be certain; it's still really all up in the air, and they have now until doomsday to figure out how to release the thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

==Title==
''Daybreak, Part 2'' (and ''Part 3'') [http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/09/battlestar-galactica-cruise-book.html according to producer Mark Verheiden].--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 19:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE change the title of the page to Part II & Part III -- It is being sold on iTunes, Amazon, etc. and two completely different episodes and this actually screwed me up immensely because I ended up reading spoilers for Part 3 before I started watching it. Yes, this is how it aired, but it is not how it is being archived. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 13:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Analysis==
"Ronald D. Moore appears in a cameo as the man holding a National Geographic magazine in New York City. "

I think there is much more to it. Ronald D. Moore is appearing as himself reading that article because his knowledge of "Eve" influenced the series. In other words, the series is a result of the events depicted in the series. With that scene, Battlestar Galactica becomes part of Battlestar Galactica.

:This is impossibel since as of 2009 mitochondrial Eve's remains haven't been found yet, this scene is set in the future, after the series ended.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::Checkout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve. First articals apearred in 2003 ;)

It's not the same thing: we've known about mitochondrial Eve since before the series started, but her actual remains have not been found, there were never any bones of her found up to this day.
It's possible that Moore knowing about Eve's existence may have influenced the show, but he has never read an NGC article about the finding of her remains, simply because those remains haven't been found and thus never made their way into an NGC article.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Notes==

I recognised it immediately when watching the episode (and it's already on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_(Battlestar_Galactica)#Outside_references ), the "Kodiak" spacecraft from Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun can be seen among the fleet during this episode.

==(Un)answered questions)==

The following Ron Moore interview clears up some misunderstandings about the show: http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html

1) Kara Thrace's father was NOT the lost cylon Daniel.

2) The Missiles Racetrack's Raptor (accidentally) fires at the cylon colony were nukes that severely damaged the colony and made it fall from its stable orbit into the singularity (black hole) so the colony has been utterly destroyed.

3) The Earth which is discovered in this episode is not the same planet that was discovered in "Revelations." The Earth of "Revelations" was not the planet we now live on, but our Earth was named after it.

There are still a bunch of unanswered questions:

1) What is the nature of the divine power (although this was probably intentionally left unanswered.)

2) Who were the Lords of Kobol and what happened to that world?

3) How did the colonials get from Kobol to the colonies and if they were technologically advanced, how did they loose all knowledge of Kobol, save for some religious texts?

4) What happened to those who nuked the old Earth 2000 years ago, some of these victors would have survived, but they re never seen or heard from.

5) Why didn't Cavil and his cylons try to re-invent resurrection themselves as the technology wasn't that far ahead of them (it was re-invented by the final five on old-Earth in a civilization that hadn't even invented jump drives.)

6) How could the resurrection hub control all resurrection ships while there was never any mention of FTL-communication on the show and why wasn't the resurrection hub integrated into the colony rather than floating around in deep space, vulnerable and guarded by only 2 baseships.

7) Was the colony really the place where all cylons lived, was their civilization so small (and clearly no match for the colonial military before the holocaust) and are there no baseships left out there that still have cylons aboard who want to exact their revenge on humanity? They may die out like the article suggests, but there's nothing stopping them from taking Earth with them (provided they find it within their lifetime.)

8) What happened to the other rebel cylons? Was it just the 3 baseships that rebelled, and if not, where are the other 2's, 6's and 8's?

9) How did Lee get everyone to agree to give up technology (even medical)?

10) Had it not made more sense to build new cities on Earth and rebuild the advanced colonial civilization, when everyone understood how important equal treatment of cylons and humans is, instead of letting Earth's humans build their own civilization thousands of years later, humans who are likely to make the same old mistakes with artificial intelligence and repeat the cycle?

11) How come no intelligent alien life has ever been encountered by colonials or cylons in their histories, but when it finally happens these aliens are identical to humans, who somehow evolved separately from the Kobol humans? Somehow this amazing coincidence being an "act of God" seems like a rather unsatisfactory answer.

12) Since all the fleet's decisions after the Ellen's reapperarance have been about breaking the cycle, is Lee afraid that by having superior technology on earth the cylons and colonials would "enslave" the native population, creating yet another cycle?

-- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

:: He doesn't actually say that about Kara. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

You're right, I've edited my post. -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

: I'd still like to know the origin of Kara's pristine Viper from her resurrection or how she died going into a gas giant with her corpse resting on a planet light-years away. And what the deal is with the Centurions from "Razor" and the Hybrid they deified. And while I understand his prophesy, I'd like to know why the old Hybrid didn't want Kara to lead a new civilisation to Earth. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:36, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Her being sent back with a new viper was supposed to be an act of the divine power. I think the Razor centurions were explained as regular mutineers, they saw the first hybrid as some kind of prophet because of the way it talked and wanted to protect it from being scrapped. Seeing as how Kara was largely responsible for the end of Cylon civilization, except the few centurions that are still left, this explains why '''CYLON''" hybrids call her the harbinger of death (it was never stated she was the harbinger of death for humanity.) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Gully, as for question four the Thirteenth Tribe's Earth got nuked by their Centurions. From the surface, not from space. M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). The Final Five secretly built a ship and rebuilt resurrection (Which the 13th Tribe hadn't needed since first achieving reproduction on Kobol). That was how they escaped. -- [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 04:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: Alright, but being centurions the radiation wouldn't really hurt them, they could easily have created their own civilization after the dust settled (a bit like the machines in the "Terminator".) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Machines can be disabled by radiation, and the impacts themselves would have destroyed the Centurions. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

From the article: “Since the notes of All Along the Watchtower lead to Earth, do they still serve a purpose on Earth?” answer: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen_(film) yes]. -- [[User:LaloMartins|LaloMartins]] 12:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Regarding point six, in [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]], it was stated that, when the [[Resurrection Hub]] jumps, it transmits its' new location to the [[Hybrid]]s, so FTL communication technology definitely exists. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Adding a question on, the CGI Raptor launched ''16'' missiles, why were only 8 shown after the launch scene?--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 06:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

==== What Precisely Killed [[Margaret Edmondson|Racetrack]] and [[Hamish McCall|Skulls]]? ====

The Marines in the rear of the cabin were killed by explosive decompression and vacuum exposure, but Racetrack and Skulls were in sealed pressure suits. I don't recall seeing suit damage in that quick shot of Margaret's hand falling on the missile-launch button. Did the one penetrating rock cause invisible crushing injuries to both of them? It didn't look big enough to hit both of them square on. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 08:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:Skulls whas hit in his face or chest by the rock and there was a small hole in Racetrack's helmet when her hand fell on the button.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

==== [[Delphi]] ====

In the episode "[[Downloaded]]" the cylons were rebuilding the Caprican city of [[Delphi]] and living in it. Was this effort completely abandoned when the Cylons decided to occupy [[New Caprica]]? Or has the effort to recover [[Caprica_(RDM)|Caprica]] continued all this time and is it still occupied? Are there still a substantial number of human-Cylons living on Caprica? Will it become like first Earth before their holocaust, an entirely Cylon-populated society? Are any humans stragglers left alive on either Caprica or New Caprica? -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 09:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

: They likely did leave the colonies after [[Downloaded]], there may still be some baseships out there, but the cylons on them are aging and cannot procreate. Even if they found Earth within their lifetimes a handful of basestars probably don't have enough nukes to obliterate the Earth's surface, that is assuming they'll actually know humans are living on Earth: it's pretty hard to find a stone age culture or neolithic society from space, even when you're actively looking for them (sure the colonials found one tribe, but in order to kill all humans with a limited number of nukes you'd have to know the positions of every tribe on Earth.)
There may be human survivors left on the colonies but it's unlikely: sure, they may have survived the nukes and the radiation, but the cylons actively hunted them down, probably to populations too small to repopulate the planets.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

:: The Cylons left the Twelve Colonies altogether in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]], remember? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:37, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

==== Lost Viper ====

During the "back-breaking" of ''Galactica'' a Viper fell out of the bow of the port flightpod and floated downward relative to the ship, which was horizontal relative to the moon below. Has RDM mentioned what happened to it? Was it recovered to the ship, was it left adrift in Solar orbit (where it theoretically could still be), or did it crash onto the Moon? (Which would leave wreckage which could be discovered in the present or future.) -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 21:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

==== Birch trees ====

(A notation rather than a question.) Birch trees don't grow and never grew in Africa, yet we clearly see them in /B/r/i/t/i/s/h/ /C/o/l/u/m/b/i/a/ Africa at the Colonial landing site. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 21:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

== The Angels Make Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. ''

----
From Act 10 section of article: "(This is in the year 1987 AD.)" How can it be 1987 when the flat panel TV clearly showed MSNBC logo at the bottom? MSNBC was created in 1996.--[[User:Steven512|Steven512]] 14:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Yes, the robots you see in this scene were also developed after 1987 and as far as I know the remains of mitochondrial Eve have never been found.
In 1987 it was discovered that there had been a mitochondrial Eve, this was based on DNA-research among modern humans, her actual remains have not been found to this day so the scene takes place in the near future (it could even be tomorrow), not in 1987!
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

== Hera's Mate = Boxey? ==

From the notes section

''On the second Earth Hera's mate that produced children was most likely human. Saul Tigh and the Leobens would be too old for her. While it was fairly common in ancient times for the men to be far older than their brides (particularly with royalty), for example with the female being as young as 12 and and the male being say 60 to take an extreme, Colonial mores, which are much like our own in real life, would forbid the Leobens from sexual congress with Hera when she reach the accepted reproductive age. On the other hand there were many human children about her age and slightly older in the Fleet. She could had also had children with a human child unborn at the time of the landing on Second Earth perhaps within five years to ten years of her age. It is possible that other hybrid children could had been born after the landing given that the Twos, Sixes, and Eights joined the humans. And it is possible that pure Cylon children could had been born to the age compatible Sixes, Eights, and Leobens but as noted in the series it is difficult if not impossible for a pure Cylon child to come to term making any pool of pure Cylon children that were successfully born very small. Cylon-Human mating with a human male with a Six or a Sharon is very possible with the example of Hera herself an significantly more likely than with a Cylon-Cylon birth, but it is harder than with human-human pairings making any pool of those pairing while much more likely and larger than Cylon-Cylon offspring, still quite small number compared to pure human offspring. Therefore Hera's offspring is most likely with a human. A more remote possibility is with another Cylon-human hybrid. Her producing children with a pure Cylon offspring is the least likely since pure Cylons are the least likely to exist.''

Boxey could be Hera's mate. It would make sense.

Boxey as Y-chromosomal Adam? Or would that be "Adama"? heh--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: The chromosomal Adam live tens of thousands of years after the Mitochondrial Eve.

: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 17:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
::Walabio is right and why would it be more likely for Hera to end up with Boxey instead of with one of the other hundreds of children from the fleet?
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 18:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::The ''Y-chromosomal Adam'' reference was to make the pun based on Boxey being Apollo's adopted son in TOS :). As for why it would make sense, it be for no other reason that it would give the RDM version of the character some (belated) importance, which he lacked through the run of the show. Why have her end up with some random kid from the fleet than have her end up with a character who had some level of development? Plus, look at it this way, the original intent according to some references on this site say that the plan was to make Boxey, Tyrol, and Sharon (Boomer) a makeshift family. Having him end up with Hera accomplishes part of that intent as he'd be related to one version of Sharon (Athena)--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It is a moot point. He had NO relevant to BSG any more since they dropped him as a character. If they didn't drop him as a character I think the perfect end would had been making him that guy that was killed in the mutiny, you know the one that acted as a runner between CIC and some damaged area of the ship to get a damage report for Adama at the near the beginning of the mutiny? He was then later killed by Gaeta's trigger happy Marines when he pushed Adama to the deck, saving his life. That would had been a good way for Boxey to go. He would had been the right age (17) and would had gave his character an ultimate purpose, to save Adama when the time came.
::: Of course it is possible for Boxey and Hera to had gotten together. He would had been 14 years old when Hera was born but with Hera say 20 years old Boxey would had been 34, a reasonable age difference allowable in both our and Colonial Society. And further it would had been another of the shows many ironies and "what goes around, comes around" themes: Boxey, who was taken in by Boomer, an Eight as a quasi foster son, later marries the daughter of Athena, an Eight, who was stolen and then given back by Boomer who was then killed Athena. Imagine all the physiological turmoil that could case Boxey. This show thrived on that sort of thing. LOL [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

== Number Three ==

Couldn't they have sent a Raptor or an FTL-capable ship to find Number Three and bring her to the New Earth with them? It would have been the humane thing to do. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: She was left on a dead-to-humans world, where the only plant life we saw were grasses or other non-edibles, with a background radiation count above the safe level beyond short exposure: even the water was contaminated. She probably died within a few weeks of being left behind. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 12:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Good point. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It was established by Athena in [[The Passage]] that Cylons are far more resistant to radiation than humans are. In fact they bombed [[Caprica]] and the other Colonies with high yield nuclear weapons '''outside''' the cities so they could kill the humans but keep the buildings and infrastructure intact. We saw them settling in [[Caprica City]] in "[[Downloaded]]" even reopening the coffee shops, so radiation is of no problem to them (except for the rare special kind of Nebula radiation at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]) So it is possible for [[D'Anna Biers]] to survive the radiation of Earth One and even drink the rain water. Food on the other hand would be a problem and I saw no evidence of surviving animal life, and this all assumes that she wanted to survive, which I don't think she would due to staying on the radioactive rock in the first place. Still, it would had been a nice thing to try to find her. Maybe a miracle would had happened LOL. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 00:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

== "No Further Significant Revelations..."==

I think this statement in the advisory tag is premature. There's still "The Plan", as well as, in theory, the Caprica series, both of which might provide further revelations with regards to Daybreak and the series itself. Certainly The Plan, anyway. Not to mention the presumed deleted scenes that will be on the DVD and there's a rumor Daybreak will be extended for the DVD as well. There's still a chance for some issues to be resolved. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 13:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:That's interesting. I don't expect The Plan to reveal much of anything about what Kara became or who the Virtual beings were, but Caprica might explore it given the establishment that they appear at times when the cycle of time (machine on human violence) begins. Caprica might provide the answers to the lingering questions if for nothing more than to give fans of BSG a reason to watch. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::Let's hope so, though I don't expect they will reveal much more about the divine powers or the angels, ever. It would take away the mystery and the sense that there is something bigger than us (humans and cylons), now we are left wondering if the divine power is a God, or just a very advanced race (maybe the perpetrators (or their descendents) of the first holocaust during the first cycle are feeling guilty) and I think that's how Ron Moore intended it to be. However, ''Caprica'' may reveal more about colonial history: what happened to Kobol, how did humans move from Kobol to the colonies, why was that history almost completely forgotten (was there a colonial dark age) and who or what were the Lords of Kobol? --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:::I'm sure that many people would agree, or at least theorize, that the virtual beings are Moore's version of the beings of light from the Ship of Lights, especially considering what happened to Kara, which I've seen (here or elsewhere, I forget) compared to what happened to the Starbuck from the original series on the last episode of Galactica 80. I think that the reason why Moore must have decided to leave things vague is that he didn't want to "cheapen it" by introducing something like the Ship of Lights into his show, which was more realistic than the original version. Now that I think about it, when Baltar tells Six that "it" doesn't like to be called God, it could be that "it" is the Ship of Lights or whatever version of it that exist in this version of the story. It would be cool if there was more exploration of this in Caprica, as well as further exploration of the "jealous God" from Kobol (which I'm sure we'll hear more of due to this headmistress in Caprica who doesn't believe in the Lords of Kobol) and all the other lingering questions from the show. In fact, given that religion is an important aspect of Caprica as it was in BSG (RDM) I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more of this down the line. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 17:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::::Hi, guys. Here's my two cents, since I'm the Senior Chief that added the special notice. "No further significant revelations" means "the story is generally over." BSG isn't Star Trek, guys. RDM has stated that there are some elements of the story that he wouldn't resolve, but that he would resolve the important stuff. Is that etched in stone somewhere? No. I'm sure ''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'' may open a few new questions. But until that series debuts, what we have is what we have. Battlestar Wiki allows some speculation because we're talking about a work of fiction. But to speculate further when no further answers are likely and people are making what's otherwise original research--that's [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]], and it's not allowed on Battlestar Wiki. For the purposes of this episode summary because its so long (and must be), we have to keep focus and not overload the article. Episode summaries are the only articles where questions can be asked (provided they don't go out of control) but many questions will not be answered. As soon as the noise dies down we can move some pressing questions to [[BW:OC|our special Q&A page answered by BSG co-producer Bradley Thompson]]. In my opinion, the nature of the Virtual Beings and Kara have been answered as far as RDM wanted to do. They are beings of divine source--and folks, religion is one thing that RDM loved to keep close to his chest to add to the BSG mystique. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::::: I'm not saying that The Plan is going to answer all the unanswered questions, etc. However The Plan has been acknowledged as the coda for this series, and just as important to it as Razor was. However the special notice as I saw it wasn't just in reference to Daybreak, but to the Wiki in general, and that's where I think it's premature. In terms of Daybreak itself, I agree that any additional revelations in The Plan will likely be minor and there are unlikely to be any in Caprica at all relating to that particular episode. But I think questions that come to mind are still worth asking with regards to characters that could be addressed in The Plan. And unless someone has already seen The Plan, or RDM has explicitly stated otherwise, we can't really predict which characters may or may not be addressed. Something that might be interesting once The Plan airs and is analysed is to go through the episode articles and compile the outstanding questions that the series has left unanswered. I think there will be fewer than some think, with the remainder being just enough to put this series into the same league as "The Prisoner" in that people will still be arguing over "what does it mean" 40 years from now. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

== How did the fleet reach Earth 2 / New Earth? ==
As far as I understood it before Galactica departed for the Colony they agreed to a rendezvous location with the fleet. But when jumping away from the colony Starbuck punched in the numbers of the song and Galactica jumped for its last time. But when it reappeared over New Earth the fleet also jumped right in. How did they get the coordinates (a raptor jumping to the rendezvous location?)? But how did they get them so fast? [[User:DJ Doena|DJ Doena]] 14:02, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:Galactica still had a few raptors left (we saw 7 of them landed on Earth) and 12 hours passed between the shot of Galactica jumping near the Moon and the rest of the fleet showing up, nothing fishy going on there. --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::The key here was time pressure. Someone had the coordinates, but with the chaos of getting sucked into a black hole, no one could give them to Kara in time before ''Galactica's'' final jump. When all was stable, someone remembered/recalled the Fleet's coordinates, sent a Raptor, and all was good. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:You missed the letters onscreen spelling "Twelve Hours Later". -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Consolidation change ==

Hey everyone! I just wanted to take a moment to explain the format and consolidation change for Act I. This change is a test for updating the event summary because:

*Each detail does not require a bullet.
*Having bullets for every event make it look redundant.

*However, having bullets between major events makes the summary flow a little better. This was the approach I used when summarizing [[Daybreak, Part I]]. It gives each scene a sense of distinction, like this example.

Are there any other opinions regarding this proposed change? If it's OK, I can start work on the other acts. -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 20:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:Given the massive data, it's okay to condense a few points. But keep it to maybe three or four lines condensed. Any larger and it's hard to follow. Try to keep it looking like the other episode guides as much as possible for consistency. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for the working guideline. As of this writing, Act I & II are done, and starting on the rest. Hope you guys like it! -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 07:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

==The robot at the end==
I corrected an addition in Story Notes that suggested the female robot at the very end is the one that was unveiled only a few days before the broadcast. That would have been very cool, but it's actually the "Actroid" which was unveiled 4 years ago. Interestingly I found Actroid, a 4-year-old technology, to be more lifelike than the one unveiled last week... [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

==The model on the cover of "Sports Limited"==
Here's a challenge for those who watched this on HD sets... I've heard it suggested that the model on the cover of "Sports Limited" (the SI-like magazine seen on the newsstand) might actually be Tricia Helfer. I can't tell at all on the computer-screen I'm using, but it might be a neat bit of trivia (not to mention it would open a line of speculation as to whether the Sixes have survived to the present day) if it's true. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 16:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

== Questions Section ==

I can never be more blunt than I tried to be before on these last two guides. The questions sections follow strict rules [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions/Episode_Guides#Questions_Section]] is the policy on this section. I am going to again clear out the questions section with the bad stuff. Users who do not follow our polices on the [[BW:SAC]] will be warned and if after being warned by doing it again, will be banned. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 02:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== Lie-dector test "question" ==

In the Questions section, somebody asked:'' "During the lie detector test in the flashback scene of William Adama's attempt to secure a civilian job, why did the interrogator ask him if he was a Cylon?"''

This was a control question in order to get a baseline from which to compare the real questions for deception. Such as if a polygraph-operator were to ask "Are you a dinosaur?" This fact was made immediately clear in the dialogue. This was in no way left unclear. It's not a mystery. It's not even a debate.

I've deleted it.

== What year is it "question" ==

Another rediculous addition to the Questions section: ''"What year is it on Earth during the final scene?"''

That too was answered by the title: "150,000 Years Later". Go back 150,000 years from 2009 AD, and you have the answer: 148000 B.C.E.

I've deleted the question.

== Regarding my edits to Questions Section ==

I've removed these three questions:

* Why so many zeros in the Model 0005?
* Does either Battlestar Galactica TV series exist in some form on the new Earth?
* Who or what is God exactly?

The first two are completely and utterly ridiculous and do not have any merit as questions. They will never be answered, and it's simply beneath the scope of what questions should be in that section in the first place.

The third question has been pretty much answered in the series by Baltar, who is essentially the mouthpiece of the writers coda on that subject. In the universe of BSG, God is a force of nature who doesn't like the name "God." -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== Galactica breaking her back ==

Just noticed, Galactica made her final jump with her flight pods out, maybe thats what caused the damage? I mean the extra forces exerted on the ship because of the higher amount of ship to effect. It makes sense that Galactica jumping without her pods retracted would place extraordinary amount of stress on the ship. Every other time even when dropping through the atmosphere at New Caprica the Galactica always had her pods retracted fro a jump.
--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 08:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

:That could very well have been a contributing factor, but there are many other factors in play, too, namely
:*her age,
:*compromises made during construction,
:*accumulated stresses and fractures from past battle damage and the sheer number of jumps,
:*lack of proper dock repair and maintenance,
:*her last sustained pounding at close-range, and ramming into the Colony.
:And consider that Adama and Tigh were told that she only had a few more jumps in her before she suffers structural damage. The old girl was already falling apart.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 13:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I remember that one of the specialists told Adama that Galactica had 5 jumps left max, but nevermind it I just took notice of it and wanted to see what everyone else thought of it. EDIT: Also noticed that Glactica's flight pods went up and down of their own accord after the jump, maybe thats why they retract the pods? I think the Mercuries could non-retract jump because of the way their support struts are placed. By the looks of it the movement of the pods was absolutely massive and that kind of stress would most certainly break Galactica's back no matter what sort of structural damage she had before. --[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 07:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

:A suspension bridge's cables snap, and the road buckles. Overwhelming stresses on the road deform it, and the cables snap. A similar arguement can be made for the flight pods. There could have been torque forces on the pods, but the loss of lateral supports could have affected the ship's rigidity that caused the body to flex, which could also cause the flight pods to sway, too.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 07:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

==Cylon Longevity==

According to [[No Exit]], Ellen and the others created Cavil in the image of her father, so it stands to reason that, 40 years prior to the fall of the colonies, he was already a man in his 70'(s?) and in fact had not aged in those four decades. It can be assumed that the same holds true for the other six humanoid cylons, all of which were considerably younger than him.

The point here is, if humaoid Cylons don't age then the surviving Cylons who didn't make it to Earth wouldn't have died out as it has been speculated, be it from old age or lack of mates to reproduce with. Their longevity could surpass human longevity and they could be alive at the end of the series.

Furthermore there's the issue of boxing. They could have boxed themselves as a form of suspended animation to ensure their survival and programmed Guardian Centurions to watch over them.

All in all, there are many number of ways in which the humanoid Cylons that didn't make it to Earth could have survived. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit: Now that I think about it, what about the Cylons who did make it to Earth? If they don't age, how did they die out? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

: Perhaps aging was only a non-issue when they had resurrection tech. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::You mean, they did age but then transfered their conciousness to younger bodies? That's possible. What about the option to box their conciousness? They could still survive that way (sure, their bodies might die out without some form of suspended animation given that they are biological, but their conciousness could survive as 1s and 0s that could be downloaded into new bodies 150,000 years later). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Removed questions ==

I've removed the following questions:
* Who were/are the Lords of Kobol?
** Good question, but not one with any connection to this episode.
* What year is the present day?
** I'm not sure what this is asking. We are shown that the Colonial's present is 150 000 years before our own.
* Who is the dying leader? Laura Roslin? Galactica? Starbuck?
** The narrative gives us many explicit statements that it is Roslin, and she fits the role perfectly, making it unnecessary to try and jam someone else into the position. Doing so without clear indications from the show is speculation.
* What’s the deal with Kara Thrace?
** She was sent back by "God" as an angel to guide the people to the new Earth. Covered fairly conclusively, if not explicitly.
* What is the true nature of the Head People?
** They were angels, as was stated many times.
* Who or what is guiding events?
** Something akin to "God", though it doesn't like to be called that. I think this is covered sufficiently in the earlier question about why "God" is guiding events.
* Is Virtual Baltar really the archangel Gabriel? If not, is Virtual Leobon? (Assuming they're not actually the same being, that is.)
** Theory without basis in the show.
--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 23:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

== Parallel evolution ==

It is implausible scientifically that Earth humans and Colonials just happened to evolve in parallel without outside influence (possibly from the head beings). Therefore, I wouldn't state it as fact that they're alien to each other -- there is no support for that in the show. The facts are that they can mate and that the characters are surprised about humans existing on Earth, but I wouldn't go as far as drawing conclusions about the origins of Colonials and humans. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

:It could be that in the Galactica universe humans are the standard of life across the universe, which is why they never encountered other life forms during their travels. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:: I covered this on this very talkpage [[#The_Angels_Make_Life_In_This_Galaxy_Boringly_Homogenous. | here. ]] Basically, the [[Angel]]s guide evolution subtly by such means as dropping huge asteroids on the dinosaurs so that they can create dodos in their place. Because of these [[Angel]]s life is the same everywhere right down to identical pianofortes playing [[the Music | All Along The Watchtower. ]]

:: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 18:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::Most importantly, don't forget the suits and ties, which were reinvented by accident or through the collective unconscious. Back to the topic, though - all I'm saying is that the fact that Earth humans are primitive in that era does not necessarily imply that the Colonials evolved totally independently on Kobol and are therefore aliens, as the note in the article stated. No need to make such bold conclusions for the sake of "You know what that actualy means?"-type trivia; we know the visible facts, and they should be reported as such, and we know there is a LOT that we don't know about the head beings, which opens up any number of possibilities for future storytelling. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 20:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::"And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees" The Algae planet could have been terraformed by the 13th Tribe before they reached Earth (maybe they intended to settle there but then learned of the supernova and changed their minds, but not after they had terraformed the planet and built the temple). New Caprica had trees? Wasn't it mostly a desert? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::: I shall address the remarks of Graf Iblis, None Of Your Business, and Man of the Atom together:

::::: What Graf Iblis says could make sense:

::::: Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense.

::::: About the trees on New Caprica, trees on our Earth come in 3 shapes:

* - Cone-Shaped

* - Mushroom-Shaped

* - Palm-Tree-Shaped

::::: For all 3 shapes one can find both angiosperms and gymnosperms. For the Palm-Tree-shaped we even have some ferns too. Convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs probably can explain the trees looking alike.

::::: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 23:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::: If the same tree species, and foxes, and chickens, and so on, can evolve on different planets without terraforming, humans aren't a stretch. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: But the trees need not be the same species on New Caprica.. Indeed, they may have only a superficial resemblance to each other. Despite looking externally similar ichthyosaurs and sharks are very different. For foxes, pidgins, humans, et cetera to be on both Cobol and our Earth, the [[Angel]]s would have to stear biological evolution on both planets or scooped up these organisms on our Earth where we know for a fact they evolved and taken them to Cobol.

::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: And the Twelve Colonies, if humans didn't bring them from Kobol (and I doubt they did). -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 03:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: It was mine understanding that the Colonists brought life from Cobol and terraformed the 12 planets orbiting a few stars in an open star-cluster.

::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::: No one ever said this. Was it in the role-playing game? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::: No. It just 1 of only 2 ideas making sense:

# - The Colonists terraformed several planets orbiting several stars in an open starcluster.
# - The Colonists rearranged 12 planets and moons of a star so that they all orbit stably within the habitable zone of a star and then terraformed them.

::::::::::: Nowhere in the show do we see any hint of the capability to move planets.

::::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::::: Or there were twleve habitable planets. It's not that far-fetched in light of Earth and Kobol both having humans. If you think that both did naturally. Which I do, since the Colonials had the concept of evolution. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 02:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::::: > “Or there were twleve habitable planets.”

::::::::::::: You want something that cannot be. One cannot have twelve planets forming the habitable zone of a star. Even if one could, not all twelve would be habitable.

::::::::::::: > “It’s not that far-fetched in light of Earth and Kobol both having humans. If you think that both did naturally. Which I do, since the Colonials had the concept of evolution”

::::::::::::: > They could not both have evolved naturally. Biological evolution has 2 components:

# - Natural Selection
# - Random Mutation

::::::::::::: Natural selection is not random, but random selection is random. The solution-space is too large and the process to stochastic. One would not have humans and chickens arising on other worlds. ¿Does Australia have bison or kangaroos? Even with extreme convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs, they do not become the same species like Colonials and the humans on our Earth.

::::::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: "Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense." It goes without saying that BSG left people wanting more. One thing I would like to know more about is who the Lords of Kobol were, what their relationship with the Angels/Messengers was, and who the jealous Lord that Elosha mentioned in "Kobol's Last Gleaming" was meant to be. Was he Iblis? Was he God? Was Iblis meant to be God? According to some text on the first season finale's page, RDM wanted Dirk Benedick to play Iblis and introduce himself to Baltar as God. Could this still happen? Did RDM change his mind and made God a "force of nature", or did Iblis/Jealous Lord EVOLVE into a force of nature? Is it that he (it?) doesn't like to be called God because he prefers to be called "Iblis"? Wasn't Iblis refered to as Lord in the original show? (Lord Iblis sounds right to me). Iblis as the one true God who orchestrated everything that happened to the Colonials and the Cylons... wouldn't that be a twist (just like Starbuck being a woman was a twist) on the original? Iblis goes from being Satan to being God... I HOPE that this is explored more deeply in Caprica... How could it NOT be given that it features a religious school, right? What else will those characters talk about if not Colonial theology and the Lords of Kobol (as well as the jealous Lord of Kobol). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: I doubt that Ronald D. Moore will ever directly answer these questions. He will probably just frak up our minds even more.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: There's a chance that RDM intended to answer these and other questions on BSG, but when the opportunity came to develop a spin off (Caprica) he could have made the choice to abandon these plots and focus on the survival aspect of the story instead and keep them to be developed later in Caprica. With characters like the teacher/nun who believes in the "one true God", locations like the Athena school (is is Athena? I forget), and the cult of religious believers that Zoe Graystone's boyfriend belongs to, there's considerable evidence to believe that these topics will be explored in the series, either as fully-developed plots or just casual conversation (i.e. dialogue spoken in a classroom, a conversation between this teacher/nun and maybe a younger Elosha in the school's quad)... It would stand to reason that given that Caprica seems to be more deeply rooted in the theology of BSG that it would explore these ideas, which might be why they stopped being an issue in BSG, which was more about finding Earth/a new world than in about discovering the "truth of God". --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 01:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: I always figured that it is just another crazy cult. On our Earth, people blow themselves up in the name of the one true god all of the time. The one true cylon-god is nothing more than the one true god of the cult of the of true god.

::::::::: Both Joseph Adams and William Adama are atheists. Lee Adama seems indifferent to religion. I wonder whether this is nature or nurture.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: It could be a result of their loosing their family in the explosion. It could be that Joseph decides that religion only results in hatred (it is religion that pushes Zoe's boyfriend into detonating the bomb). The question is in finding the link between the Cylon's worship of the one true God and the cult that Zoe's boyfriend belogns to. Why would Daniel Graystone instill religion into the Cylons? If not him, then who, how, and why? Is it Zoe's friend? Is it the teacher/nun? Is it Virtual Zoe? Why would any Graystone believe in the one true God whose followers caused the death of Zoe, Adama's sister and mother, and all those other people?... Speaking of Virtual Zoe, will she be connected to Virtual Six and Virtual Baltar? Is the one true God really a divine being (i.e. a Lord of Kobol), a "force of nature", or a man inside a space ship (a ship of lights, if you will) who uses Graystone's Cylon and Virtual echnologies to influence Colonial life (well, that might not track given that the messengers visited the 13th Colony 2000 years prior to the creation of the Cononial Cylons, but wouldn't it be cool if it did, heh?). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 13:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: The messengers saw Kobol and Earth as well as Caprica, so they can't be the product of Graystone technology. Right now, the best answer for the Centurions' monotheism is that they're Zoe's descendants. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC)== The Colonials were NOT "human" (in the modern sense) ==
I've restored the bit about the characters not being "human" in the modern sense of the term and that the series was fundamentally the saga of an alien race. If you actually listened to Dr. Cottle, he said the DNA of the early Earth humans is "compatible" to Colonial DNA. He didn't say it was exactly the same. Going by that, it's completely fair to conclude that the Colonials and early humans were NOT genetically identical. They simply had analogous DNA structures. We already know they had at least one physiological difference: the Colonials didn't have a universal blood donor type.

As for "our" connection with them; within the ''Battlestar Galactica'' universe, modern humans are NOT Colonials. We are a hybridization of Colonials AND the native humans. So the characters of ''Battlestar Galactica'' were indeed "aliens" and not "human" in the sense of what we consider human today. By the nature of them not evolving on Earth, they were most certainly extraterrestrial. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]]

: Extraterrestrial and alien have different meanings. The former simply means "not from Earth", the latter is a relative term for something the speaker has no relationship to. It is obvious that Colonials are extraterrestrial. They are not alien to us, just as the Cylons and the Earth natives are not.

: There's no evidence that they didn't have a universal blood donor type. The copy of Baltar's Lab Notes sold at the big auction shows that Hera's blood was unusual because it had no antigens whatsoever, not just ABO. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:21, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
---------------
Here are my problems with the paragraph:

1) The revelation that the Colonial "humans" evolved separately from Earth humans...

::Where is this demonstrated in the series? All we know for sure is that practically identical Colonials arrived on our Earth more than 150,000 years ago. We have absolutely no idea how they came to be on Kobol. Why are you so eager to jump to conclusions about totally separate evolution processes of practically identical races, especially with the huge uncertainty factor of the "God" entity taking an active part in everyone's life? I would be extremely careful - if the "God" entity is so powerful and capable of surviving over 150,000 years, it could have manipulated life on Kobol based on life on Earth. No need to ignore the scientific facts of evolution in that case. Therefore, I propose to stick to the facts, and not espouse anyone's theory of how the two groups evolved, either yours or mine. The Colonials arrived on Earth 150,000 years ago and they can mate with the local population. That's it.

2) ...means that fundamentally none of the so-called "human" characters of the series were actually human in the sense of what we consider human today. Instead, they were an outwardly indistinguishable from Homo sapiens extraterrestrial species with compatible DNA to Homo sapiens as a result of a parallel evolution.

::Again, no evidence for parallel evolution, which would be extremely unlikely. The facts are: Colonials came from Kobol as far as they know, although they don't know much about their early history.

3) The reimagined Battlestar Galactica was actually the saga of an alien race.

::No proof. In order to prove that it is an alien race, you have to prove that they evolved completely separately, despite all the physical similarities and an extremely influential "God" entity observing the events over hundreds of thousands of years and taking an active part in them.

It is extremely important to stick to verifiable facts on such shaky ground, with so much about the "God" entity remaining unknown. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

*[[Jane Espenson]] (one of BSG's writers and executive producers) has confirmed in an interview that Kobol was indeed the "original origin point for humanity" (i.e. Colonials) [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html]. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 21:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

:I think this is likely the case, but unfortunately her wording is "I've always taken it to be Kobol." -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

:Jane, Ron, any writer or producer. If you see this, could you please clear things up for us? --- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 21:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
-----
As noted, she assumed it to be Kobol. If you quote her exactly, I don't mind, but that does not mean that Ron Moore shares the opinion absolutely, without possibility of change, or that any other writers do. Remember how fluid and unpredictable BSG writing tends to be? She also indicated in another interview that the Angels may be aliens, which is something that Ron Moore wasn't specific about; they really prefer to leave a lot of this to our interpretation. Again, quoting her on that is fine, but it should not be stated as undisputable fact. If you include the source, the reader will know that the statement does not have the same value as an onscreen demonstration, and that there are alternative explanations as well. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 21:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

-----

Wouldn't the Colonials fall within the category of Missing Link between modern humanity and the "Colonial-compatible human life" they found on Earth (2). meaning that, since modern man is the child of the mating of Colonials and those humans, he shares more in commun with them than he does with the humans they found here?

In other words, modern man, as the child of the Colonials, is the result of mating between aliens and human ancestors who shared communalities wth those aliens, thus making the Colonials humans in the modern sense since the modern sense of what means to be human is the result of that mixture of races.--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 12:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

:Which is closer to modern man depends on the ratio of Colonial to Earther in the mix. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:28, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

:: Modern Man = The mating of a Colonial/Cylon hybrid (Hera) with either a human from the planet (which might be unlikely given their state of evolution), a Colonial (i.e. Boxey), or a Cylon (which would have to be Leoben since he was the only male Cylon that joined the Civil War on the Sixes' side, right? Simon and Doval stayed with Cavil). How likely is it that Hera would have mated with a native during her lifetime? Would the Colonials and Cylons have integrated themselves that early into the populace, or waited until they achieved a higher degree of evolution (i.e. invent the wheel)? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

== Daybreak Three-Parter ==

In Latin America, Daybreak is airing as a three-parter. Today, part II just finished airing here and it had the following differences from the two-hour version detailed in this article (in all likelihood this is the syndicated version. I don't know if that has already aired in the US).

The following two summaries, taken from the main article, are the two scenes that have been omitted from the second chapter of the three-parter version of Daybreak:

*Elsewhere, Laura Roslin greets her date, Sean Allison, at her home. She eventually recognizes him as a former student from years ago. Despite the age difference, Roslin decides to let him stay the night.

*A flashback scene shows what Boomer meant: a time back in her days on 'Galactica, as Adama and Tigh redress her but give her another chance to be a better pilot.
--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 22:58, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

== Religion Vs Technology ==

The intro of the original show went

"There are those who believe that life here began out there, far across the universe, with tribes of humans who may have been the forefathers of the Egyptians, or the Toltecs, or the Mayans. That they may have been the architects of the great pyramids, or the lost civilizations of Lemuria or Atlantis. Some believe that there may yet be brothers of man who even now fight to survive somewhere beyond the heavens..."

The last episode of the show clearly took its inspiration for this with the revelation that the events of the show took place 150,000+ years in the past.

It can be safely concluded that, as the intro says, the Egyptians, Toltecs, Mayans, the architects of the pyramids, and the losts civilizations of Lemuria and Atlantis based their religious ideologies on those of the 13 Colonies.

It's interesting that, while they opted to forgo technology in a bid to avoid repeating the cycle of violence, they retained their religious beliefs, which in turn lead to a different kind of violance. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:07, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-05-24T20:07:41Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Daybreak Three-Parter */

== Move ==
Why move this? The way I understand this, this is still episode 20, but it will be lengthened to actually be 3 episodes long. So in a away there are 21/22 episodes even, and not 19. However, [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/06/battlestars-fin.html This] says that the season will be 11 hours and not 12, but that doesn't mean that we need to get rid of episode 19 already. Especially given that the finale will probably air in at least 2 parts. So it makes some sense to have separate episodes guides for two airings. By production numbers this would be one episode, but split apart by airdate numbers. Maybe we should wait for some further clarification. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:It could be split up into 3 parts in reruns. I think it would be easier to start with a single article and then split as necessary after it airs. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::If Sci Fi is gonna pull a Miniseries and air this thing in two parts, we should pull a Miniseries too and have [[Miniseries, Night 1|separate]] [[Miniseries, Night 2|articles]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Which we can do after we know where the break point is. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 09:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to split the article at this time. We won't know how things will be aired until they're actually aired. All we know for now is that the finale's been extended... that's it. Creating two or three sections based on something we have absolutely very little information on is just... ill-advised. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 13:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:The proposal wasn't a split, but a merge with 419 I think (the article exists. It just isn't linked to, because it's an empty skeleton). But the result is the same. The way I understand it, 419+420 will be the finale then, with both episodes running 3 hours together (incl. ads I guess). We'll see. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::Ah, ok. Sounded like it would be a split, with at least one additional article, seeing as each article would cover an hour. Anyway, we don't have enough information to be certain; it's still really all up in the air, and they have now until doomsday to figure out how to release the thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

==Title==
''Daybreak, Part 2'' (and ''Part 3'') [http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/09/battlestar-galactica-cruise-book.html according to producer Mark Verheiden].--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 19:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE change the title of the page to Part II & Part III -- It is being sold on iTunes, Amazon, etc. and two completely different episodes and this actually screwed me up immensely because I ended up reading spoilers for Part 3 before I started watching it. Yes, this is how it aired, but it is not how it is being archived. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 13:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Analysis==
"Ronald D. Moore appears in a cameo as the man holding a National Geographic magazine in New York City. "

I think there is much more to it. Ronald D. Moore is appearing as himself reading that article because his knowledge of "Eve" influenced the series. In other words, the series is a result of the events depicted in the series. With that scene, Battlestar Galactica becomes part of Battlestar Galactica.

:This is impossibel since as of 2009 mitochondrial Eve's remains haven't been found yet, this scene is set in the future, after the series ended.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::Checkout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve. First articals apearred in 2003 ;)

It's not the same thing: we've known about mitochondrial Eve since before the series started, but her actual remains have not been found, there were never any bones of her found up to this day.
It's possible that Moore knowing about Eve's existence may have influenced the show, but he has never read an NGC article about the finding of her remains, simply because those remains haven't been found and thus never made their way into an NGC article.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Notes==

I recognised it immediately when watching the episode (and it's already on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_(Battlestar_Galactica)#Outside_references ), the "Kodiak" spacecraft from Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun can be seen among the fleet during this episode.

==(Un)answered questions)==

The following Ron Moore interview clears up some misunderstandings about the show: http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html

1) Kara Thrace's father was NOT the lost cylon Daniel.

2) The Missiles Racetrack's Raptor (accidentally) fires at the cylon colony were nukes that severely damaged the colony and made it fall from its stable orbit into the singularity (black hole) so the colony has been utterly destroyed.

3) The Earth which is discovered in this episode is not the same planet that was discovered in "Revelations." The Earth of "Revelations" was not the planet we now live on, but our Earth was named after it.

There are still a bunch of unanswered questions:

1) What is the nature of the divine power (although this was probably intentionally left unanswered.)

2) Who were the Lords of Kobol and what happened to that world?

3) How did the colonials get from Kobol to the colonies and if they were technologically advanced, how did they loose all knowledge of Kobol, save for some religious texts?

4) What happened to those who nuked the old Earth 2000 years ago, some of these victors would have survived, but they re never seen or heard from.

5) Why didn't Cavil and his cylons try to re-invent resurrection themselves as the technology wasn't that far ahead of them (it was re-invented by the final five on old-Earth in a civilization that hadn't even invented jump drives.)

6) How could the resurrection hub control all resurrection ships while there was never any mention of FTL-communication on the show and why wasn't the resurrection hub integrated into the colony rather than floating around in deep space, vulnerable and guarded by only 2 baseships.

7) Was the colony really the place where all cylons lived, was their civilization so small (and clearly no match for the colonial military before the holocaust) and are there no baseships left out there that still have cylons aboard who want to exact their revenge on humanity? They may die out like the article suggests, but there's nothing stopping them from taking Earth with them (provided they find it within their lifetime.)

8) What happened to the other rebel cylons? Was it just the 3 baseships that rebelled, and if not, where are the other 2's, 6's and 8's?

9) How did Lee get everyone to agree to give up technology (even medical)?

10) Had it not made more sense to build new cities on Earth and rebuild the advanced colonial civilization, when everyone understood how important equal treatment of cylons and humans is, instead of letting Earth's humans build their own civilization thousands of years later, humans who are likely to make the same old mistakes with artificial intelligence and repeat the cycle?

11) How come no intelligent alien life has ever been encountered by colonials or cylons in their histories, but when it finally happens these aliens are identical to humans, who somehow evolved separately from the Kobol humans? Somehow this amazing coincidence being an "act of God" seems like a rather unsatisfactory answer.

12) Since all the fleet's decisions after the Ellen's reapperarance have been about breaking the cycle, is Lee afraid that by having superior technology on earth the cylons and colonials would "enslave" the native population, creating yet another cycle?

-- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

:: He doesn't actually say that about Kara. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

You're right, I've edited my post. -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

: I'd still like to know the origin of Kara's pristine Viper from her resurrection or how she died going into a gas giant with her corpse resting on a planet light-years away. And what the deal is with the Centurions from "Razor" and the Hybrid they deified. And while I understand his prophesy, I'd like to know why the old Hybrid didn't want Kara to lead a new civilisation to Earth. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:36, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Her being sent back with a new viper was supposed to be an act of the divine power. I think the Razor centurions were explained as regular mutineers, they saw the first hybrid as some kind of prophet because of the way it talked and wanted to protect it from being scrapped. Seeing as how Kara was largely responsible for the end of Cylon civilization, except the few centurions that are still left, this explains why '''CYLON''" hybrids call her the harbinger of death (it was never stated she was the harbinger of death for humanity.) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Gully, as for question four the Thirteenth Tribe's Earth got nuked by their Centurions. From the surface, not from space. M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). The Final Five secretly built a ship and rebuilt resurrection (Which the 13th Tribe hadn't needed since first achieving reproduction on Kobol). That was how they escaped. -- [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 04:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: Alright, but being centurions the radiation wouldn't really hurt them, they could easily have created their own civilization after the dust settled (a bit like the machines in the "Terminator".) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Machines can be disabled by radiation, and the impacts themselves would have destroyed the Centurions. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

From the article: “Since the notes of All Along the Watchtower lead to Earth, do they still serve a purpose on Earth?” answer: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen_(film) yes]. -- [[User:LaloMartins|LaloMartins]] 12:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Regarding point six, in [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]], it was stated that, when the [[Resurrection Hub]] jumps, it transmits its' new location to the [[Hybrid]]s, so FTL communication technology definitely exists. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Adding a question on, the CGI Raptor launched ''16'' missiles, why were only 8 shown after the launch scene?--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 06:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

==== What Precisely Killed [[Margaret Edmondson|Racetrack]] and [[Hamish McCall|Skulls]]? ====

The Marines in the rear of the cabin were killed by explosive decompression and vacuum exposure, but Racetrack and Skulls were in sealed pressure suits. I don't recall seeing suit damage in that quick shot of Margaret's hand falling on the missile-launch button. Did the one penetrating rock cause invisible crushing injuries to both of them? It didn't look big enough to hit both of them square on. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 08:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:Skulls whas hit in his face or chest by the rock and there was a small hole in Racetrack's helmet when her hand fell on the button.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

==== [[Delphi]] ====

In the episode "[[Downloaded]]" the cylons were rebuilding the Caprican city of [[Delphi]] and living in it. Was this effort completely abandoned when the Cylons decided to occupy [[New Caprica]]? Or has the effort to recover [[Caprica_(RDM)|Caprica]] continued all this time and is it still occupied? Are there still a substantial number of human-Cylons living on Caprica? Will it become like first Earth before their holocaust, an entirely Cylon-populated society? Are any humans stragglers left alive on either Caprica or New Caprica? -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 09:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

: They likely did leave the colonies after [[Downloaded]], there may still be some baseships out there, but the cylons on them are aging and cannot procreate. Even if they found Earth within their lifetimes a handful of basestars probably don't have enough nukes to obliterate the Earth's surface, that is assuming they'll actually know humans are living on Earth: it's pretty hard to find a stone age culture or neolithic society from space, even when you're actively looking for them (sure the colonials found one tribe, but in order to kill all humans with a limited number of nukes you'd have to know the positions of every tribe on Earth.)
There may be human survivors left on the colonies but it's unlikely: sure, they may have survived the nukes and the radiation, but the cylons actively hunted them down, probably to populations too small to repopulate the planets.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

:: The Cylons left the Twelve Colonies altogether in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]], remember? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:37, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

==== Lost Viper ====

During the "back-breaking" of ''Galactica'' a Viper fell out of the bow of the port flightpod and floated downward relative to the ship, which was horizontal relative to the moon below. Has RDM mentioned what happened to it? Was it recovered to the ship, was it left adrift in Solar orbit (where it theoretically could still be), or did it crash onto the Moon? (Which would leave wreckage which could be discovered in the present or future.) -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 21:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

==== Birch trees ====

(A notation rather than a question.) Birch trees don't grow and never grew in Africa, yet we clearly see them in /B/r/i/t/i/s/h/ /C/o/l/u/m/b/i/a/ Africa at the Colonial landing site. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 21:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

== The Angels Make Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. ''

----
From Act 10 section of article: "(This is in the year 1987 AD.)" How can it be 1987 when the flat panel TV clearly showed MSNBC logo at the bottom? MSNBC was created in 1996.--[[User:Steven512|Steven512]] 14:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Yes, the robots you see in this scene were also developed after 1987 and as far as I know the remains of mitochondrial Eve have never been found.
In 1987 it was discovered that there had been a mitochondrial Eve, this was based on DNA-research among modern humans, her actual remains have not been found to this day so the scene takes place in the near future (it could even be tomorrow), not in 1987!
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

== Hera's Mate = Boxey? ==

From the notes section

''On the second Earth Hera's mate that produced children was most likely human. Saul Tigh and the Leobens would be too old for her. While it was fairly common in ancient times for the men to be far older than their brides (particularly with royalty), for example with the female being as young as 12 and and the male being say 60 to take an extreme, Colonial mores, which are much like our own in real life, would forbid the Leobens from sexual congress with Hera when she reach the accepted reproductive age. On the other hand there were many human children about her age and slightly older in the Fleet. She could had also had children with a human child unborn at the time of the landing on Second Earth perhaps within five years to ten years of her age. It is possible that other hybrid children could had been born after the landing given that the Twos, Sixes, and Eights joined the humans. And it is possible that pure Cylon children could had been born to the age compatible Sixes, Eights, and Leobens but as noted in the series it is difficult if not impossible for a pure Cylon child to come to term making any pool of pure Cylon children that were successfully born very small. Cylon-Human mating with a human male with a Six or a Sharon is very possible with the example of Hera herself an significantly more likely than with a Cylon-Cylon birth, but it is harder than with human-human pairings making any pool of those pairing while much more likely and larger than Cylon-Cylon offspring, still quite small number compared to pure human offspring. Therefore Hera's offspring is most likely with a human. A more remote possibility is with another Cylon-human hybrid. Her producing children with a pure Cylon offspring is the least likely since pure Cylons are the least likely to exist.''

Boxey could be Hera's mate. It would make sense.

Boxey as Y-chromosomal Adam? Or would that be "Adama"? heh--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: The chromosomal Adam live tens of thousands of years after the Mitochondrial Eve.

: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 17:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
::Walabio is right and why would it be more likely for Hera to end up with Boxey instead of with one of the other hundreds of children from the fleet?
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 18:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::The ''Y-chromosomal Adam'' reference was to make the pun based on Boxey being Apollo's adopted son in TOS :). As for why it would make sense, it be for no other reason that it would give the RDM version of the character some (belated) importance, which he lacked through the run of the show. Why have her end up with some random kid from the fleet than have her end up with a character who had some level of development? Plus, look at it this way, the original intent according to some references on this site say that the plan was to make Boxey, Tyrol, and Sharon (Boomer) a makeshift family. Having him end up with Hera accomplishes part of that intent as he'd be related to one version of Sharon (Athena)--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It is a moot point. He had NO relevant to BSG any more since they dropped him as a character. If they didn't drop him as a character I think the perfect end would had been making him that guy that was killed in the mutiny, you know the one that acted as a runner between CIC and some damaged area of the ship to get a damage report for Adama at the near the beginning of the mutiny? He was then later killed by Gaeta's trigger happy Marines when he pushed Adama to the deck, saving his life. That would had been a good way for Boxey to go. He would had been the right age (17) and would had gave his character an ultimate purpose, to save Adama when the time came.
::: Of course it is possible for Boxey and Hera to had gotten together. He would had been 14 years old when Hera was born but with Hera say 20 years old Boxey would had been 34, a reasonable age difference allowable in both our and Colonial Society. And further it would had been another of the shows many ironies and "what goes around, comes around" themes: Boxey, who was taken in by Boomer, an Eight as a quasi foster son, later marries the daughter of Athena, an Eight, who was stolen and then given back by Boomer who was then killed Athena. Imagine all the physiological turmoil that could case Boxey. This show thrived on that sort of thing. LOL [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

== Number Three ==

Couldn't they have sent a Raptor or an FTL-capable ship to find Number Three and bring her to the New Earth with them? It would have been the humane thing to do. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: She was left on a dead-to-humans world, where the only plant life we saw were grasses or other non-edibles, with a background radiation count above the safe level beyond short exposure: even the water was contaminated. She probably died within a few weeks of being left behind. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 12:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Good point. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It was established by Athena in [[The Passage]] that Cylons are far more resistant to radiation than humans are. In fact they bombed [[Caprica]] and the other Colonies with high yield nuclear weapons '''outside''' the cities so they could kill the humans but keep the buildings and infrastructure intact. We saw them settling in [[Caprica City]] in "[[Downloaded]]" even reopening the coffee shops, so radiation is of no problem to them (except for the rare special kind of Nebula radiation at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]) So it is possible for [[D'Anna Biers]] to survive the radiation of Earth One and even drink the rain water. Food on the other hand would be a problem and I saw no evidence of surviving animal life, and this all assumes that she wanted to survive, which I don't think she would due to staying on the radioactive rock in the first place. Still, it would had been a nice thing to try to find her. Maybe a miracle would had happened LOL. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 00:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

== "No Further Significant Revelations..."==

I think this statement in the advisory tag is premature. There's still "The Plan", as well as, in theory, the Caprica series, both of which might provide further revelations with regards to Daybreak and the series itself. Certainly The Plan, anyway. Not to mention the presumed deleted scenes that will be on the DVD and there's a rumor Daybreak will be extended for the DVD as well. There's still a chance for some issues to be resolved. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 13:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:That's interesting. I don't expect The Plan to reveal much of anything about what Kara became or who the Virtual beings were, but Caprica might explore it given the establishment that they appear at times when the cycle of time (machine on human violence) begins. Caprica might provide the answers to the lingering questions if for nothing more than to give fans of BSG a reason to watch. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::Let's hope so, though I don't expect they will reveal much more about the divine powers or the angels, ever. It would take away the mystery and the sense that there is something bigger than us (humans and cylons), now we are left wondering if the divine power is a God, or just a very advanced race (maybe the perpetrators (or their descendents) of the first holocaust during the first cycle are feeling guilty) and I think that's how Ron Moore intended it to be. However, ''Caprica'' may reveal more about colonial history: what happened to Kobol, how did humans move from Kobol to the colonies, why was that history almost completely forgotten (was there a colonial dark age) and who or what were the Lords of Kobol? --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:::I'm sure that many people would agree, or at least theorize, that the virtual beings are Moore's version of the beings of light from the Ship of Lights, especially considering what happened to Kara, which I've seen (here or elsewhere, I forget) compared to what happened to the Starbuck from the original series on the last episode of Galactica 80. I think that the reason why Moore must have decided to leave things vague is that he didn't want to "cheapen it" by introducing something like the Ship of Lights into his show, which was more realistic than the original version. Now that I think about it, when Baltar tells Six that "it" doesn't like to be called God, it could be that "it" is the Ship of Lights or whatever version of it that exist in this version of the story. It would be cool if there was more exploration of this in Caprica, as well as further exploration of the "jealous God" from Kobol (which I'm sure we'll hear more of due to this headmistress in Caprica who doesn't believe in the Lords of Kobol) and all the other lingering questions from the show. In fact, given that religion is an important aspect of Caprica as it was in BSG (RDM) I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more of this down the line. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 17:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::::Hi, guys. Here's my two cents, since I'm the Senior Chief that added the special notice. "No further significant revelations" means "the story is generally over." BSG isn't Star Trek, guys. RDM has stated that there are some elements of the story that he wouldn't resolve, but that he would resolve the important stuff. Is that etched in stone somewhere? No. I'm sure ''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'' may open a few new questions. But until that series debuts, what we have is what we have. Battlestar Wiki allows some speculation because we're talking about a work of fiction. But to speculate further when no further answers are likely and people are making what's otherwise original research--that's [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]], and it's not allowed on Battlestar Wiki. For the purposes of this episode summary because its so long (and must be), we have to keep focus and not overload the article. Episode summaries are the only articles where questions can be asked (provided they don't go out of control) but many questions will not be answered. As soon as the noise dies down we can move some pressing questions to [[BW:OC|our special Q&A page answered by BSG co-producer Bradley Thompson]]. In my opinion, the nature of the Virtual Beings and Kara have been answered as far as RDM wanted to do. They are beings of divine source--and folks, religion is one thing that RDM loved to keep close to his chest to add to the BSG mystique. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::::: I'm not saying that The Plan is going to answer all the unanswered questions, etc. However The Plan has been acknowledged as the coda for this series, and just as important to it as Razor was. However the special notice as I saw it wasn't just in reference to Daybreak, but to the Wiki in general, and that's where I think it's premature. In terms of Daybreak itself, I agree that any additional revelations in The Plan will likely be minor and there are unlikely to be any in Caprica at all relating to that particular episode. But I think questions that come to mind are still worth asking with regards to characters that could be addressed in The Plan. And unless someone has already seen The Plan, or RDM has explicitly stated otherwise, we can't really predict which characters may or may not be addressed. Something that might be interesting once The Plan airs and is analysed is to go through the episode articles and compile the outstanding questions that the series has left unanswered. I think there will be fewer than some think, with the remainder being just enough to put this series into the same league as "The Prisoner" in that people will still be arguing over "what does it mean" 40 years from now. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

== How did the fleet reach Earth 2 / New Earth? ==
As far as I understood it before Galactica departed for the Colony they agreed to a rendezvous location with the fleet. But when jumping away from the colony Starbuck punched in the numbers of the song and Galactica jumped for its last time. But when it reappeared over New Earth the fleet also jumped right in. How did they get the coordinates (a raptor jumping to the rendezvous location?)? But how did they get them so fast? [[User:DJ Doena|DJ Doena]] 14:02, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:Galactica still had a few raptors left (we saw 7 of them landed on Earth) and 12 hours passed between the shot of Galactica jumping near the Moon and the rest of the fleet showing up, nothing fishy going on there. --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::The key here was time pressure. Someone had the coordinates, but with the chaos of getting sucked into a black hole, no one could give them to Kara in time before ''Galactica's'' final jump. When all was stable, someone remembered/recalled the Fleet's coordinates, sent a Raptor, and all was good. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:You missed the letters onscreen spelling "Twelve Hours Later". -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Consolidation change ==

Hey everyone! I just wanted to take a moment to explain the format and consolidation change for Act I. This change is a test for updating the event summary because:

*Each detail does not require a bullet.
*Having bullets for every event make it look redundant.

*However, having bullets between major events makes the summary flow a little better. This was the approach I used when summarizing [[Daybreak, Part I]]. It gives each scene a sense of distinction, like this example.

Are there any other opinions regarding this proposed change? If it's OK, I can start work on the other acts. -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 20:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:Given the massive data, it's okay to condense a few points. But keep it to maybe three or four lines condensed. Any larger and it's hard to follow. Try to keep it looking like the other episode guides as much as possible for consistency. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for the working guideline. As of this writing, Act I & II are done, and starting on the rest. Hope you guys like it! -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 07:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

==The robot at the end==
I corrected an addition in Story Notes that suggested the female robot at the very end is the one that was unveiled only a few days before the broadcast. That would have been very cool, but it's actually the "Actroid" which was unveiled 4 years ago. Interestingly I found Actroid, a 4-year-old technology, to be more lifelike than the one unveiled last week... [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

==The model on the cover of "Sports Limited"==
Here's a challenge for those who watched this on HD sets... I've heard it suggested that the model on the cover of "Sports Limited" (the SI-like magazine seen on the newsstand) might actually be Tricia Helfer. I can't tell at all on the computer-screen I'm using, but it might be a neat bit of trivia (not to mention it would open a line of speculation as to whether the Sixes have survived to the present day) if it's true. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 16:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

== Questions Section ==

I can never be more blunt than I tried to be before on these last two guides. The questions sections follow strict rules [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions/Episode_Guides#Questions_Section]] is the policy on this section. I am going to again clear out the questions section with the bad stuff. Users who do not follow our polices on the [[BW:SAC]] will be warned and if after being warned by doing it again, will be banned. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 02:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== Lie-dector test "question" ==

In the Questions section, somebody asked:'' "During the lie detector test in the flashback scene of William Adama's attempt to secure a civilian job, why did the interrogator ask him if he was a Cylon?"''

This was a control question in order to get a baseline from which to compare the real questions for deception. Such as if a polygraph-operator were to ask "Are you a dinosaur?" This fact was made immediately clear in the dialogue. This was in no way left unclear. It's not a mystery. It's not even a debate.

I've deleted it.

== What year is it "question" ==

Another rediculous addition to the Questions section: ''"What year is it on Earth during the final scene?"''

That too was answered by the title: "150,000 Years Later". Go back 150,000 years from 2009 AD, and you have the answer: 148000 B.C.E.

I've deleted the question.

== Regarding my edits to Questions Section ==

I've removed these three questions:

* Why so many zeros in the Model 0005?
* Does either Battlestar Galactica TV series exist in some form on the new Earth?
* Who or what is God exactly?

The first two are completely and utterly ridiculous and do not have any merit as questions. They will never be answered, and it's simply beneath the scope of what questions should be in that section in the first place.

The third question has been pretty much answered in the series by Baltar, who is essentially the mouthpiece of the writers coda on that subject. In the universe of BSG, God is a force of nature who doesn't like the name "God." -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== Galactica breaking her back ==

Just noticed, Galactica made her final jump with her flight pods out, maybe thats what caused the damage? I mean the extra forces exerted on the ship because of the higher amount of ship to effect. It makes sense that Galactica jumping without her pods retracted would place extraordinary amount of stress on the ship. Every other time even when dropping through the atmosphere at New Caprica the Galactica always had her pods retracted fro a jump.
--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 08:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

:That could very well have been a contributing factor, but there are many other factors in play, too, namely
:*her age,
:*compromises made during construction,
:*accumulated stresses and fractures from past battle damage and the sheer number of jumps,
:*lack of proper dock repair and maintenance,
:*her last sustained pounding at close-range, and ramming into the Colony.
:And consider that Adama and Tigh were told that she only had a few more jumps in her before she suffers structural damage. The old girl was already falling apart.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 13:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I remember that one of the specialists told Adama that Galactica had 5 jumps left max, but nevermind it I just took notice of it and wanted to see what everyone else thought of it. EDIT: Also noticed that Glactica's flight pods went up and down of their own accord after the jump, maybe thats why they retract the pods? I think the Mercuries could non-retract jump because of the way their support struts are placed. By the looks of it the movement of the pods was absolutely massive and that kind of stress would most certainly break Galactica's back no matter what sort of structural damage she had before. --[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 07:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

:A suspension bridge's cables snap, and the road buckles. Overwhelming stresses on the road deform it, and the cables snap. A similar arguement can be made for the flight pods. There could have been torque forces on the pods, but the loss of lateral supports could have affected the ship's rigidity that caused the body to flex, which could also cause the flight pods to sway, too.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 07:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

==Cylon Longevity==

According to [[No Exit]], Ellen and the others created Cavil in the image of her father, so it stands to reason that, 40 years prior to the fall of the colonies, he was already a man in his 70'(s?) and in fact had not aged in those four decades. It can be assumed that the same holds true for the other six humanoid cylons, all of which were considerably younger than him.

The point here is, if humaoid Cylons don't age then the surviving Cylons who didn't make it to Earth wouldn't have died out as it has been speculated, be it from old age or lack of mates to reproduce with. Their longevity could surpass human longevity and they could be alive at the end of the series.

Furthermore there's the issue of boxing. They could have boxed themselves as a form of suspended animation to ensure their survival and programmed Guardian Centurions to watch over them.

All in all, there are many number of ways in which the humanoid Cylons that didn't make it to Earth could have survived. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit: Now that I think about it, what about the Cylons who did make it to Earth? If they don't age, how did they die out? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

: Perhaps aging was only a non-issue when they had resurrection tech. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::You mean, they did age but then transfered their conciousness to younger bodies? That's possible. What about the option to box their conciousness? They could still survive that way (sure, their bodies might die out without some form of suspended animation given that they are biological, but their conciousness could survive as 1s and 0s that could be downloaded into new bodies 150,000 years later). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Removed questions ==

I've removed the following questions:
* Who were/are the Lords of Kobol?
** Good question, but not one with any connection to this episode.
* What year is the present day?
** I'm not sure what this is asking. We are shown that the Colonial's present is 150 000 years before our own.
* Who is the dying leader? Laura Roslin? Galactica? Starbuck?
** The narrative gives us many explicit statements that it is Roslin, and she fits the role perfectly, making it unnecessary to try and jam someone else into the position. Doing so without clear indications from the show is speculation.
* What’s the deal with Kara Thrace?
** She was sent back by "God" as an angel to guide the people to the new Earth. Covered fairly conclusively, if not explicitly.
* What is the true nature of the Head People?
** They were angels, as was stated many times.
* Who or what is guiding events?
** Something akin to "God", though it doesn't like to be called that. I think this is covered sufficiently in the earlier question about why "God" is guiding events.
* Is Virtual Baltar really the archangel Gabriel? If not, is Virtual Leobon? (Assuming they're not actually the same being, that is.)
** Theory without basis in the show.
--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 23:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

== Parallel evolution ==

It is implausible scientifically that Earth humans and Colonials just happened to evolve in parallel without outside influence (possibly from the head beings). Therefore, I wouldn't state it as fact that they're alien to each other -- there is no support for that in the show. The facts are that they can mate and that the characters are surprised about humans existing on Earth, but I wouldn't go as far as drawing conclusions about the origins of Colonials and humans. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

:It could be that in the Galactica universe humans are the standard of life across the universe, which is why they never encountered other life forms during their travels. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:: I covered this on this very talkpage [[#The_Angels_Make_Life_In_This_Galaxy_Boringly_Homogenous. | here. ]] Basically, the [[Angel]]s guide evolution subtly by such means as dropping huge asteroids on the dinosaurs so that they can create dodos in their place. Because of these [[Angel]]s life is the same everywhere right down to identical pianofortes playing [[the Music | All Along The Watchtower. ]]

:: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 18:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::Most importantly, don't forget the suits and ties, which were reinvented by accident or through the collective unconscious. Back to the topic, though - all I'm saying is that the fact that Earth humans are primitive in that era does not necessarily imply that the Colonials evolved totally independently on Kobol and are therefore aliens, as the note in the article stated. No need to make such bold conclusions for the sake of "You know what that actualy means?"-type trivia; we know the visible facts, and they should be reported as such, and we know there is a LOT that we don't know about the head beings, which opens up any number of possibilities for future storytelling. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 20:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::"And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees" The Algae planet could have been terraformed by the 13th Tribe before they reached Earth (maybe they intended to settle there but then learned of the supernova and changed their minds, but not after they had terraformed the planet and built the temple). New Caprica had trees? Wasn't it mostly a desert? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::: I shall address the remarks of Graf Iblis, None Of Your Business, and Man of the Atom together:

::::: What Graf Iblis says could make sense:

::::: Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense.

::::: About the trees on New Caprica, trees on our Earth come in 3 shapes:

* - Cone-Shaped

* - Mushroom-Shaped

* - Palm-Tree-Shaped

::::: For all 3 shapes one can find both angiosperms and gymnosperms. For the Palm-Tree-shaped we even have some ferns too. Convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs probably can explain the trees looking alike.

::::: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 23:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::: If the same tree species, and foxes, and chickens, and so on, can evolve on different planets without terraforming, humans aren't a stretch. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: But the trees need not be the same species on New Caprica.. Indeed, they may have only a superficial resemblance to each other. Despite looking externally similar ichthyosaurs and sharks are very different. For foxes, pidgins, humans, et cetera to be on both Cobol and our Earth, the [[Angel]]s would have to stear biological evolution on both planets or scooped up these organisms on our Earth where we know for a fact they evolved and taken them to Cobol.

::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: And the Twelve Colonies, if humans didn't bring them from Kobol (and I doubt they did). -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 03:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: It was mine understanding that the Colonists brought life from Cobol and terraformed the 12 planets orbiting a few stars in an open star-cluster.

::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::: No one ever said this. Was it in the role-playing game? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::: No. It just 1 of only 2 ideas making sense:

# - The Colonists terraformed several planets orbiting several stars in an open starcluster.
# - The Colonists rearranged 12 planets and moons of a star so that they all orbit stably within the habitable zone of a star and then terraformed them.

::::::::::: Nowhere in the show do we see any hint of the capability to move planets.

::::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::::: Or there were twleve habitable planets. It's not that far-fetched in light of Earth and Kobol both having humans. If you think that both did naturally. Which I do, since the Colonials had the concept of evolution. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 02:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::::: > “Or there were twleve habitable planets.”

::::::::::::: You want something that cannot be. One cannot have twelve planets forming the habitable zone of a star. Even if one could, not all twelve would be habitable.

::::::::::::: > “It’s not that far-fetched in light of Earth and Kobol both having humans. If you think that both did naturally. Which I do, since the Colonials had the concept of evolution”

::::::::::::: > They could not both have evolved naturally. Biological evolution has 2 components:

# - Natural Selection
# - Random Mutation

::::::::::::: Natural selection is not random, but random selection is random. The solution-space is too large and the process to stochastic. One would not have humans and chickens arising on other worlds. ¿Does Australia have bison or kangaroos? Even with extreme convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs, they do not become the same species like Colonials and the humans on our Earth.

::::::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: "Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense." It goes without saying that BSG left people wanting more. One thing I would like to know more about is who the Lords of Kobol were, what their relationship with the Angels/Messengers was, and who the jealous Lord that Elosha mentioned in "Kobol's Last Gleaming" was meant to be. Was he Iblis? Was he God? Was Iblis meant to be God? According to some text on the first season finale's page, RDM wanted Dirk Benedick to play Iblis and introduce himself to Baltar as God. Could this still happen? Did RDM change his mind and made God a "force of nature", or did Iblis/Jealous Lord EVOLVE into a force of nature? Is it that he (it?) doesn't like to be called God because he prefers to be called "Iblis"? Wasn't Iblis refered to as Lord in the original show? (Lord Iblis sounds right to me). Iblis as the one true God who orchestrated everything that happened to the Colonials and the Cylons... wouldn't that be a twist (just like Starbuck being a woman was a twist) on the original? Iblis goes from being Satan to being God... I HOPE that this is explored more deeply in Caprica... How could it NOT be given that it features a religious school, right? What else will those characters talk about if not Colonial theology and the Lords of Kobol (as well as the jealous Lord of Kobol). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: I doubt that Ronald D. Moore will ever directly answer these questions. He will probably just frak up our minds even more.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: There's a chance that RDM intended to answer these and other questions on BSG, but when the opportunity came to develop a spin off (Caprica) he could have made the choice to abandon these plots and focus on the survival aspect of the story instead and keep them to be developed later in Caprica. With characters like the teacher/nun who believes in the "one true God", locations like the Athena school (is is Athena? I forget), and the cult of religious believers that Zoe Graystone's boyfriend belongs to, there's considerable evidence to believe that these topics will be explored in the series, either as fully-developed plots or just casual conversation (i.e. dialogue spoken in a classroom, a conversation between this teacher/nun and maybe a younger Elosha in the school's quad)... It would stand to reason that given that Caprica seems to be more deeply rooted in the theology of BSG that it would explore these ideas, which might be why they stopped being an issue in BSG, which was more about finding Earth/a new world than in about discovering the "truth of God". --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 01:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: I always figured that it is just another crazy cult. On our Earth, people blow themselves up in the name of the one true god all of the time. The one true cylon-god is nothing more than the one true god of the cult of the of true god.

::::::::: Both Joseph Adams and William Adama are atheists. Lee Adama seems indifferent to religion. I wonder whether this is nature or nurture.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: It could be a result of their loosing their family in the explosion. It could be that Joseph decides that religion only results in hatred (it is religion that pushes Zoe's boyfriend into detonating the bomb). The question is in finding the link between the Cylon's worship of the one true God and the cult that Zoe's boyfriend belogns to. Why would Daniel Graystone instill religion into the Cylons? If not him, then who, how, and why? Is it Zoe's friend? Is it the teacher/nun? Is it Virtual Zoe? Why would any Graystone believe in the one true God whose followers caused the death of Zoe, Adama's sister and mother, and all those other people?... Speaking of Virtual Zoe, will she be connected to Virtual Six and Virtual Baltar? Is the one true God really a divine being (i.e. a Lord of Kobol), a "force of nature", or a man inside a space ship (a ship of lights, if you will) who uses Graystone's Cylon and Virtual echnologies to influence Colonial life (well, that might not track given that the messengers visited the 13th Colony 2000 years prior to the creation of the Cononial Cylons, but wouldn't it be cool if it did, heh?). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 13:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: The messengers saw Kobol and Earth as well as Caprica, so they can't be the product of Graystone technology. Right now, the best answer for the Centurions' monotheism is that they're Zoe's descendants. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC)== The Colonials were NOT "human" (in the modern sense) ==
I've restored the bit about the characters not being "human" in the modern sense of the term and that the series was fundamentally the saga of an alien race. If you actually listened to Dr. Cottle, he said the DNA of the early Earth humans is "compatible" to Colonial DNA. He didn't say it was exactly the same. Going by that, it's completely fair to conclude that the Colonials and early humans were NOT genetically identical. They simply had analogous DNA structures. We already know they had at least one physiological difference: the Colonials didn't have a universal blood donor type.

As for "our" connection with them; within the ''Battlestar Galactica'' universe, modern humans are NOT Colonials. We are a hybridization of Colonials AND the native humans. So the characters of ''Battlestar Galactica'' were indeed "aliens" and not "human" in the sense of what we consider human today. By the nature of them not evolving on Earth, they were most certainly extraterrestrial. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]]

: Extraterrestrial and alien have different meanings. The former simply means "not from Earth", the latter is a relative term for something the speaker has no relationship to. It is obvious that Colonials are extraterrestrial. They are not alien to us, just as the Cylons and the Earth natives are not.

: There's no evidence that they didn't have a universal blood donor type. The copy of Baltar's Lab Notes sold at the big auction shows that Hera's blood was unusual because it had no antigens whatsoever, not just ABO. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:21, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
---------------
Here are my problems with the paragraph:

1) The revelation that the Colonial "humans" evolved separately from Earth humans...

::Where is this demonstrated in the series? All we know for sure is that practically identical Colonials arrived on our Earth more than 150,000 years ago. We have absolutely no idea how they came to be on Kobol. Why are you so eager to jump to conclusions about totally separate evolution processes of practically identical races, especially with the huge uncertainty factor of the "God" entity taking an active part in everyone's life? I would be extremely careful - if the "God" entity is so powerful and capable of surviving over 150,000 years, it could have manipulated life on Kobol based on life on Earth. No need to ignore the scientific facts of evolution in that case. Therefore, I propose to stick to the facts, and not espouse anyone's theory of how the two groups evolved, either yours or mine. The Colonials arrived on Earth 150,000 years ago and they can mate with the local population. That's it.

2) ...means that fundamentally none of the so-called "human" characters of the series were actually human in the sense of what we consider human today. Instead, they were an outwardly indistinguishable from Homo sapiens extraterrestrial species with compatible DNA to Homo sapiens as a result of a parallel evolution.

::Again, no evidence for parallel evolution, which would be extremely unlikely. The facts are: Colonials came from Kobol as far as they know, although they don't know much about their early history.

3) The reimagined Battlestar Galactica was actually the saga of an alien race.

::No proof. In order to prove that it is an alien race, you have to prove that they evolved completely separately, despite all the physical similarities and an extremely influential "God" entity observing the events over hundreds of thousands of years and taking an active part in them.

It is extremely important to stick to verifiable facts on such shaky ground, with so much about the "God" entity remaining unknown. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

*[[Jane Espenson]] (one of BSG's writers and executive producers) has confirmed in an interview that Kobol was indeed the "original origin point for humanity" (i.e. Colonials) [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html]. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 21:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

:I think this is likely the case, but unfortunately her wording is "I've always taken it to be Kobol." -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

:Jane, Ron, any writer or producer. If you see this, could you please clear things up for us? --- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 21:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
-----
As noted, she assumed it to be Kobol. If you quote her exactly, I don't mind, but that does not mean that Ron Moore shares the opinion absolutely, without possibility of change, or that any other writers do. Remember how fluid and unpredictable BSG writing tends to be? She also indicated in another interview that the Angels may be aliens, which is something that Ron Moore wasn't specific about; they really prefer to leave a lot of this to our interpretation. Again, quoting her on that is fine, but it should not be stated as undisputable fact. If you include the source, the reader will know that the statement does not have the same value as an onscreen demonstration, and that there are alternative explanations as well. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 21:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

-----

Wouldn't the Colonials fall within the category of Missing Link between modern humanity and the "Colonial-compatible human life" they found on Earth (2). meaning that, since modern man is the child of the mating of Colonials and those humans, he shares more in commun with them than he does with the humans they found here?

In other words, modern man, as the child of the Colonials, is the result of mating between aliens and human ancestors who shared communalities wth those aliens, thus making the Colonials humans in the modern sense since the modern sense of what means to be human is the result of that mixture of races.--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 12:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

:Which is closer to modern man depends on the ratio of Colonial to Earther in the mix. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:28, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

:: Modern Man = The mating of a Colonial/Cylon hybrid (Hera) with either a human from the planet (which might be unlikely given their state of evolution), a Colonial (i.e. Boxey), or a Cylon (which would have to be Leoben since he was the only male Cylon that joined the Civil War on the Sixes' side, right? Simon and Doval stayed with Cavil). How likely is it that Hera would have mated with a native during her lifetime? Would the Colonials and Cylons have integrated themselves that early into the populace, or waited until they achieved a higher degree of evolution (i.e. invent the wheel)? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

== Daybreak Three-Parter ==

In Latin America, Daybreak is airing as a three-parter. Today, part II just finished airing here and it had the following differences from the two-hour version detailed in this article (in all likelihood this is the syndicated version. I don't know if that has already aired in the US).

The following two summaries, taken from the main article, are the two scenes that have been omitted from the second chapter of the three-parter version of Daybreak:

*Elsewhere, Laura Roslin greets her date, Sean Allison, at her home. She eventually recognizes him as a former student from years ago. Despite the age difference, Roslin decides to let him stay the night.

*A flashback scene shows what Boomer meant: a time back in her days on 'Galactica, as Adama and Tigh redress her but give her another chance to be a better pilot.
--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 22:58, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

== Religion Vs Technology ==

The intro of the original show went "

Part of the premise of the show goes

"There are those who believe that life here began out there, far across the universe, with tribes of humans who may have been the forefathers of the Egyptians, or the Toltecs, or the Mayans. That they may have been the architects of the great pyramids, or the lost civilizations of Lemuria or Atlantis. Some believe that there may yet be brothers of man who even now fight to survive somewhere beyond the heavens..."

The last episode of the show clearly took its inspiration for this with the revelation that the events of the show took place 150,000+ years in the past.

It can be safely concluded that, as the intro says, the Egyptians, Toltecs, Mayans, the architects of the pyramids, and the losts civilizations of Lemuria and Atlantis based their religious ideologies on those of the 13 Colonies.

It's interesting that, while they opted to forgo technology in a bid to avoid repeating the cycle of violence, they retained their religious beliefs, which in turn lead to a different kind of violance. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:07, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-05-17T22:58:59Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Daybreak Three-Parter */

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-05-17T20:59:03Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Daybreak Three-Parter */

== Move ==
Why move this? The way I understand this, this is still episode 20, but it will be lengthened to actually be 3 episodes long. So in a away there are 21/22 episodes even, and not 19. However, [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/06/battlestars-fin.html This] says that the season will be 11 hours and not 12, but that doesn't mean that we need to get rid of episode 19 already. Especially given that the finale will probably air in at least 2 parts. So it makes some sense to have separate episodes guides for two airings. By production numbers this would be one episode, but split apart by airdate numbers. Maybe we should wait for some further clarification. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:It could be split up into 3 parts in reruns. I think it would be easier to start with a single article and then split as necessary after it airs. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::If Sci Fi is gonna pull a Miniseries and air this thing in two parts, we should pull a Miniseries too and have [[Miniseries, Night 1|separate]] [[Miniseries, Night 2|articles]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Which we can do after we know where the break point is. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 09:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to split the article at this time. We won't know how things will be aired until they're actually aired. All we know for now is that the finale's been extended... that's it. Creating two or three sections based on something we have absolutely very little information on is just... ill-advised. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 13:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:The proposal wasn't a split, but a merge with 419 I think (the article exists. It just isn't linked to, because it's an empty skeleton). But the result is the same. The way I understand it, 419+420 will be the finale then, with both episodes running 3 hours together (incl. ads I guess). We'll see. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::Ah, ok. Sounded like it would be a split, with at least one additional article, seeing as each article would cover an hour. Anyway, we don't have enough information to be certain; it's still really all up in the air, and they have now until doomsday to figure out how to release the thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

==Title==
''Daybreak, Part 2'' (and ''Part 3'') [http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/09/battlestar-galactica-cruise-book.html according to producer Mark Verheiden].--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 19:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE change the title of the page to Part II & Part III -- It is being sold on iTunes, Amazon, etc. and two completely different episodes and this actually screwed me up immensely because I ended up reading spoilers for Part 3 before I started watching it. Yes, this is how it aired, but it is not how it is being archived. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 13:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Analysis==
"Ronald D. Moore appears in a cameo as the man holding a National Geographic magazine in New York City. "

I think there is much more to it. Ronald D. Moore is appearing as himself reading that article because his knowledge of "Eve" influenced the series. In other words, the series is a result of the events depicted in the series. With that scene, Battlestar Galactica becomes part of Battlestar Galactica.

:This is impossibel since as of 2009 mitochondrial Eve's remains haven't been found yet, this scene is set in the future, after the series ended.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::Checkout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve. First articals apearred in 2003 ;)

It's not the same thing: we've known about mitochondrial Eve since before the series started, but her actual remains have not been found, there were never any bones of her found up to this day.
It's possible that Moore knowing about Eve's existence may have influenced the show, but he has never read an NGC article about the finding of her remains, simply because those remains haven't been found and thus never made their way into an NGC article.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Notes==

I recognised it immediately when watching the episode (and it's already on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_(Battlestar_Galactica)#Outside_references ), the "Kodiak" spacecraft from Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun can be seen among the fleet during this episode.

==(Un)answered questions)==

The following Ron Moore interview clears up some misunderstandings about the show: http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html

1) Kara Thrace's father was NOT the lost cylon Daniel.

2) The Missiles Racetrack's Raptor (accidentally) fires at the cylon colony were nukes that severely damaged the colony and made it fall from its stable orbit into the singularity (black hole) so the colony has been utterly destroyed.

3) The Earth which is discovered in this episode is not the same planet that was discovered in "Revelations." The Earth of "Revelations" was not the planet we now live on, but our Earth was named after it.

There are still a bunch of unanswered questions:

1) What is the nature of the divine power (although this was probably intentionally left unanswered.)

2) Who were the Lords of Kobol and what happened to that world?

3) How did the colonials get from Kobol to the colonies and if they were technologically advanced, how did they loose all knowledge of Kobol, save for some religious texts?

4) What happened to those who nuked the old Earth 2000 years ago, some of these victors would have survived, but they re never seen or heard from.

5) Why didn't Cavil and his cylons try to re-invent resurrection themselves as the technology wasn't that far ahead of them (it was re-invented by the final five on old-Earth in a civilization that hadn't even invented jump drives.)

6) How could the resurrection hub control all resurrection ships while there was never any mention of FTL-communication on the show and why wasn't the resurrection hub integrated into the colony rather than floating around in deep space, vulnerable and guarded by only 2 baseships.

7) Was the colony really the place where all cylons lived, was their civilization so small (and clearly no match for the colonial military before the holocaust) and are there no baseships left out there that still have cylons aboard who want to exact their revenge on humanity? They may die out like the article suggests, but there's nothing stopping them from taking Earth with them (provided they find it within their lifetime.)

8) What happened to the other rebel cylons? Was it just the 3 baseships that rebelled, and if not, where are the other 2's, 6's and 8's?

9) How did Lee get everyone to agree to give up technology (even medical)?

10) Had it not made more sense to build new cities on Earth and rebuild the advanced colonial civilization, when everyone understood how important equal treatment of cylons and humans is, instead of letting Earth's humans build their own civilization thousands of years later, humans who are likely to make the same old mistakes with artificial intelligence and repeat the cycle?

11) How come no intelligent alien life has ever been encountered by colonials or cylons in their histories, but when it finally happens these aliens are identical to humans, who somehow evolved separately from the Kobol humans? Somehow this amazing coincidence being an "act of God" seems like a rather unsatisfactory answer.

12) Since all the fleet's decisions after the Ellen's reapperarance have been about breaking the cycle, is Lee afraid that by having superior technology on earth the cylons and colonials would "enslave" the native population, creating yet another cycle?

-- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

:: He doesn't actually say that about Kara. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

You're right, I've edited my post. -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

: I'd still like to know the origin of Kara's pristine Viper from her resurrection or how she died going into a gas giant with her corpse resting on a planet light-years away. And what the deal is with the Centurions from "Razor" and the Hybrid they deified. And while I understand his prophesy, I'd like to know why the old Hybrid didn't want Kara to lead a new civilisation to Earth. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:36, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Her being sent back with a new viper was supposed to be an act of the divine power. I think the Razor centurions were explained as regular mutineers, they saw the first hybrid as some kind of prophet because of the way it talked and wanted to protect it from being scrapped. Seeing as how Kara was largely responsible for the end of Cylon civilization, except the few centurions that are still left, this explains why '''CYLON''" hybrids call her the harbinger of death (it was never stated she was the harbinger of death for humanity.) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Gully, as for question four the Thirteenth Tribe's Earth got nuked by their Centurions. From the surface, not from space. M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). The Final Five secretly built a ship and rebuilt resurrection (Which the 13th Tribe hadn't needed since first achieving reproduction on Kobol). That was how they escaped. -- [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 04:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: Alright, but being centurions the radiation wouldn't really hurt them, they could easily have created their own civilization after the dust settled (a bit like the machines in the "Terminator".) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Machines can be disabled by radiation, and the impacts themselves would have destroyed the Centurions. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

From the article: “Since the notes of All Along the Watchtower lead to Earth, do they still serve a purpose on Earth?” answer: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen_(film) yes]. -- [[User:LaloMartins|LaloMartins]] 12:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Regarding point six, in [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]], it was stated that, when the [[Resurrection Hub]] jumps, it transmits its' new location to the [[Hybrid]]s, so FTL communication technology definitely exists. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Adding a question on, the CGI Raptor launched ''16'' missiles, why were only 8 shown after the launch scene?--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 06:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

==== What Precisely Killed [[Margaret Edmondson|Racetrack]] and [[Hamish McCall|Skulls]]? ====

The Marines in the rear of the cabin were killed by explosive decompression and vacuum exposure, but Racetrack and Skulls were in sealed pressure suits. I don't recall seeing suit damage in that quick shot of Margaret's hand falling on the missile-launch button. Did the one penetrating rock cause invisible crushing injuries to both of them? It didn't look big enough to hit both of them square on. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 08:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:Skulls whas hit in his face or chest by the rock and there was a small hole in Racetrack's helmet when her hand fell on the button.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

==== [[Delphi]] ====

In the episode "[[Downloaded]]" the cylons were rebuilding the Caprican city of [[Delphi]] and living in it. Was this effort completely abandoned when the Cylons decided to occupy [[New Caprica]]? Or has the effort to recover [[Caprica_(RDM)|Caprica]] continued all this time and is it still occupied? Are there still a substantial number of human-Cylons living on Caprica? Will it become like first Earth before their holocaust, an entirely Cylon-populated society? Are any humans stragglers left alive on either Caprica or New Caprica? -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 09:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

: They likely did leave the colonies after [[Downloaded]], there may still be some baseships out there, but the cylons on them are aging and cannot procreate. Even if they found Earth within their lifetimes a handful of basestars probably don't have enough nukes to obliterate the Earth's surface, that is assuming they'll actually know humans are living on Earth: it's pretty hard to find a stone age culture or neolithic society from space, even when you're actively looking for them (sure the colonials found one tribe, but in order to kill all humans with a limited number of nukes you'd have to know the positions of every tribe on Earth.)
There may be human survivors left on the colonies but it's unlikely: sure, they may have survived the nukes and the radiation, but the cylons actively hunted them down, probably to populations too small to repopulate the planets.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

:: The Cylons left the Twelve Colonies altogether in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]], remember? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:37, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

==== Lost Viper ====

During the "back-breaking" of ''Galactica'' a Viper fell out of the bow of the port flightpod and floated downward relative to the ship, which was horizontal relative to the moon below. Has RDM mentioned what happened to it? Was it recovered to the ship, was it left adrift in Solar orbit (where it theoretically could still be), or did it crash onto the Moon? (Which would leave wreckage which could be discovered in the present or future.) -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 21:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

==== Birch trees ====

(A notation rather than a question.) Birch trees don't grow and never grew in Africa, yet we clearly see them in /B/r/i/t/i/s/h/ /C/o/l/u/m/b/i/a/ Africa at the Colonial landing site. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 21:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

== The Angels Make Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. ''

----
From Act 10 section of article: "(This is in the year 1987 AD.)" How can it be 1987 when the flat panel TV clearly showed MSNBC logo at the bottom? MSNBC was created in 1996.--[[User:Steven512|Steven512]] 14:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Yes, the robots you see in this scene were also developed after 1987 and as far as I know the remains of mitochondrial Eve have never been found.
In 1987 it was discovered that there had been a mitochondrial Eve, this was based on DNA-research among modern humans, her actual remains have not been found to this day so the scene takes place in the near future (it could even be tomorrow), not in 1987!
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

== Hera's Mate = Boxey? ==

From the notes section

''On the second Earth Hera's mate that produced children was most likely human. Saul Tigh and the Leobens would be too old for her. While it was fairly common in ancient times for the men to be far older than their brides (particularly with royalty), for example with the female being as young as 12 and and the male being say 60 to take an extreme, Colonial mores, which are much like our own in real life, would forbid the Leobens from sexual congress with Hera when she reach the accepted reproductive age. On the other hand there were many human children about her age and slightly older in the Fleet. She could had also had children with a human child unborn at the time of the landing on Second Earth perhaps within five years to ten years of her age. It is possible that other hybrid children could had been born after the landing given that the Twos, Sixes, and Eights joined the humans. And it is possible that pure Cylon children could had been born to the age compatible Sixes, Eights, and Leobens but as noted in the series it is difficult if not impossible for a pure Cylon child to come to term making any pool of pure Cylon children that were successfully born very small. Cylon-Human mating with a human male with a Six or a Sharon is very possible with the example of Hera herself an significantly more likely than with a Cylon-Cylon birth, but it is harder than with human-human pairings making any pool of those pairing while much more likely and larger than Cylon-Cylon offspring, still quite small number compared to pure human offspring. Therefore Hera's offspring is most likely with a human. A more remote possibility is with another Cylon-human hybrid. Her producing children with a pure Cylon offspring is the least likely since pure Cylons are the least likely to exist.''

Boxey could be Hera's mate. It would make sense.

Boxey as Y-chromosomal Adam? Or would that be "Adama"? heh--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: The chromosomal Adam live tens of thousands of years after the Mitochondrial Eve.

: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 17:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
::Walabio is right and why would it be more likely for Hera to end up with Boxey instead of with one of the other hundreds of children from the fleet?
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 18:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::The ''Y-chromosomal Adam'' reference was to make the pun based on Boxey being Apollo's adopted son in TOS :). As for why it would make sense, it be for no other reason that it would give the RDM version of the character some (belated) importance, which he lacked through the run of the show. Why have her end up with some random kid from the fleet than have her end up with a character who had some level of development? Plus, look at it this way, the original intent according to some references on this site say that the plan was to make Boxey, Tyrol, and Sharon (Boomer) a makeshift family. Having him end up with Hera accomplishes part of that intent as he'd be related to one version of Sharon (Athena)--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It is a moot point. He had NO relevant to BSG any more since they dropped him as a character. If they didn't drop him as a character I think the perfect end would had been making him that guy that was killed in the mutiny, you know the one that acted as a runner between CIC and some damaged area of the ship to get a damage report for Adama at the near the beginning of the mutiny? He was then later killed by Gaeta's trigger happy Marines when he pushed Adama to the deck, saving his life. That would had been a good way for Boxey to go. He would had been the right age (17) and would had gave his character an ultimate purpose, to save Adama when the time came.
::: Of course it is possible for Boxey and Hera to had gotten together. He would had been 14 years old when Hera was born but with Hera say 20 years old Boxey would had been 34, a reasonable age difference allowable in both our and Colonial Society. And further it would had been another of the shows many ironies and "what goes around, comes around" themes: Boxey, who was taken in by Boomer, an Eight as a quasi foster son, later marries the daughter of Athena, an Eight, who was stolen and then given back by Boomer who was then killed Athena. Imagine all the physiological turmoil that could case Boxey. This show thrived on that sort of thing. LOL [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

== Number Three ==

Couldn't they have sent a Raptor or an FTL-capable ship to find Number Three and bring her to the New Earth with them? It would have been the humane thing to do. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: She was left on a dead-to-humans world, where the only plant life we saw were grasses or other non-edibles, with a background radiation count above the safe level beyond short exposure: even the water was contaminated. She probably died within a few weeks of being left behind. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 12:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Good point. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It was established by Athena in [[The Passage]] that Cylons are far more resistant to radiation than humans are. In fact they bombed [[Caprica]] and the other Colonies with high yield nuclear weapons '''outside''' the cities so they could kill the humans but keep the buildings and infrastructure intact. We saw them settling in [[Caprica City]] in "[[Downloaded]]" even reopening the coffee shops, so radiation is of no problem to them (except for the rare special kind of Nebula radiation at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]) So it is possible for [[D'Anna Biers]] to survive the radiation of Earth One and even drink the rain water. Food on the other hand would be a problem and I saw no evidence of surviving animal life, and this all assumes that she wanted to survive, which I don't think she would due to staying on the radioactive rock in the first place. Still, it would had been a nice thing to try to find her. Maybe a miracle would had happened LOL. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 00:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

== "No Further Significant Revelations..."==

I think this statement in the advisory tag is premature. There's still "The Plan", as well as, in theory, the Caprica series, both of which might provide further revelations with regards to Daybreak and the series itself. Certainly The Plan, anyway. Not to mention the presumed deleted scenes that will be on the DVD and there's a rumor Daybreak will be extended for the DVD as well. There's still a chance for some issues to be resolved. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 13:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:That's interesting. I don't expect The Plan to reveal much of anything about what Kara became or who the Virtual beings were, but Caprica might explore it given the establishment that they appear at times when the cycle of time (machine on human violence) begins. Caprica might provide the answers to the lingering questions if for nothing more than to give fans of BSG a reason to watch. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::Let's hope so, though I don't expect they will reveal much more about the divine powers or the angels, ever. It would take away the mystery and the sense that there is something bigger than us (humans and cylons), now we are left wondering if the divine power is a God, or just a very advanced race (maybe the perpetrators (or their descendents) of the first holocaust during the first cycle are feeling guilty) and I think that's how Ron Moore intended it to be. However, ''Caprica'' may reveal more about colonial history: what happened to Kobol, how did humans move from Kobol to the colonies, why was that history almost completely forgotten (was there a colonial dark age) and who or what were the Lords of Kobol? --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:::I'm sure that many people would agree, or at least theorize, that the virtual beings are Moore's version of the beings of light from the Ship of Lights, especially considering what happened to Kara, which I've seen (here or elsewhere, I forget) compared to what happened to the Starbuck from the original series on the last episode of Galactica 80. I think that the reason why Moore must have decided to leave things vague is that he didn't want to "cheapen it" by introducing something like the Ship of Lights into his show, which was more realistic than the original version. Now that I think about it, when Baltar tells Six that "it" doesn't like to be called God, it could be that "it" is the Ship of Lights or whatever version of it that exist in this version of the story. It would be cool if there was more exploration of this in Caprica, as well as further exploration of the "jealous God" from Kobol (which I'm sure we'll hear more of due to this headmistress in Caprica who doesn't believe in the Lords of Kobol) and all the other lingering questions from the show. In fact, given that religion is an important aspect of Caprica as it was in BSG (RDM) I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more of this down the line. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 17:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::::Hi, guys. Here's my two cents, since I'm the Senior Chief that added the special notice. "No further significant revelations" means "the story is generally over." BSG isn't Star Trek, guys. RDM has stated that there are some elements of the story that he wouldn't resolve, but that he would resolve the important stuff. Is that etched in stone somewhere? No. I'm sure ''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'' may open a few new questions. But until that series debuts, what we have is what we have. Battlestar Wiki allows some speculation because we're talking about a work of fiction. But to speculate further when no further answers are likely and people are making what's otherwise original research--that's [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]], and it's not allowed on Battlestar Wiki. For the purposes of this episode summary because its so long (and must be), we have to keep focus and not overload the article. Episode summaries are the only articles where questions can be asked (provided they don't go out of control) but many questions will not be answered. As soon as the noise dies down we can move some pressing questions to [[BW:OC|our special Q&A page answered by BSG co-producer Bradley Thompson]]. In my opinion, the nature of the Virtual Beings and Kara have been answered as far as RDM wanted to do. They are beings of divine source--and folks, religion is one thing that RDM loved to keep close to his chest to add to the BSG mystique. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::::: I'm not saying that The Plan is going to answer all the unanswered questions, etc. However The Plan has been acknowledged as the coda for this series, and just as important to it as Razor was. However the special notice as I saw it wasn't just in reference to Daybreak, but to the Wiki in general, and that's where I think it's premature. In terms of Daybreak itself, I agree that any additional revelations in The Plan will likely be minor and there are unlikely to be any in Caprica at all relating to that particular episode. But I think questions that come to mind are still worth asking with regards to characters that could be addressed in The Plan. And unless someone has already seen The Plan, or RDM has explicitly stated otherwise, we can't really predict which characters may or may not be addressed. Something that might be interesting once The Plan airs and is analysed is to go through the episode articles and compile the outstanding questions that the series has left unanswered. I think there will be fewer than some think, with the remainder being just enough to put this series into the same league as "The Prisoner" in that people will still be arguing over "what does it mean" 40 years from now. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

== How did the fleet reach Earth 2 / New Earth? ==
As far as I understood it before Galactica departed for the Colony they agreed to a rendezvous location with the fleet. But when jumping away from the colony Starbuck punched in the numbers of the song and Galactica jumped for its last time. But when it reappeared over New Earth the fleet also jumped right in. How did they get the coordinates (a raptor jumping to the rendezvous location?)? But how did they get them so fast? [[User:DJ Doena|DJ Doena]] 14:02, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:Galactica still had a few raptors left (we saw 7 of them landed on Earth) and 12 hours passed between the shot of Galactica jumping near the Moon and the rest of the fleet showing up, nothing fishy going on there. --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::The key here was time pressure. Someone had the coordinates, but with the chaos of getting sucked into a black hole, no one could give them to Kara in time before ''Galactica's'' final jump. When all was stable, someone remembered/recalled the Fleet's coordinates, sent a Raptor, and all was good. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:You missed the letters onscreen spelling "Twelve Hours Later". -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Consolidation change ==

Hey everyone! I just wanted to take a moment to explain the format and consolidation change for Act I. This change is a test for updating the event summary because:

*Each detail does not require a bullet.
*Having bullets for every event make it look redundant.

*However, having bullets between major events makes the summary flow a little better. This was the approach I used when summarizing [[Daybreak, Part I]]. It gives each scene a sense of distinction, like this example.

Are there any other opinions regarding this proposed change? If it's OK, I can start work on the other acts. -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 20:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:Given the massive data, it's okay to condense a few points. But keep it to maybe three or four lines condensed. Any larger and it's hard to follow. Try to keep it looking like the other episode guides as much as possible for consistency. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for the working guideline. As of this writing, Act I & II are done, and starting on the rest. Hope you guys like it! -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 07:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

==The robot at the end==
I corrected an addition in Story Notes that suggested the female robot at the very end is the one that was unveiled only a few days before the broadcast. That would have been very cool, but it's actually the "Actroid" which was unveiled 4 years ago. Interestingly I found Actroid, a 4-year-old technology, to be more lifelike than the one unveiled last week... [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

==The model on the cover of "Sports Limited"==
Here's a challenge for those who watched this on HD sets... I've heard it suggested that the model on the cover of "Sports Limited" (the SI-like magazine seen on the newsstand) might actually be Tricia Helfer. I can't tell at all on the computer-screen I'm using, but it might be a neat bit of trivia (not to mention it would open a line of speculation as to whether the Sixes have survived to the present day) if it's true. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 16:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

== Questions Section ==

I can never be more blunt than I tried to be before on these last two guides. The questions sections follow strict rules [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions/Episode_Guides#Questions_Section]] is the policy on this section. I am going to again clear out the questions section with the bad stuff. Users who do not follow our polices on the [[BW:SAC]] will be warned and if after being warned by doing it again, will be banned. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 02:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== Lie-dector test "question" ==

In the Questions section, somebody asked:'' "During the lie detector test in the flashback scene of William Adama's attempt to secure a civilian job, why did the interrogator ask him if he was a Cylon?"''

This was a control question in order to get a baseline from which to compare the real questions for deception. Such as if a polygraph-operator were to ask "Are you a dinosaur?" This fact was made immediately clear in the dialogue. This was in no way left unclear. It's not a mystery. It's not even a debate.

I've deleted it.

== What year is it "question" ==

Another rediculous addition to the Questions section: ''"What year is it on Earth during the final scene?"''

That too was answered by the title: "150,000 Years Later". Go back 150,000 years from 2009 AD, and you have the answer: 148000 B.C.E.

I've deleted the question.

== Regarding my edits to Questions Section ==

I've removed these three questions:

* Why so many zeros in the Model 0005?
* Does either Battlestar Galactica TV series exist in some form on the new Earth?
* Who or what is God exactly?

The first two are completely and utterly ridiculous and do not have any merit as questions. They will never be answered, and it's simply beneath the scope of what questions should be in that section in the first place.

The third question has been pretty much answered in the series by Baltar, who is essentially the mouthpiece of the writers coda on that subject. In the universe of BSG, God is a force of nature who doesn't like the name "God." -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== Galactica breaking her back ==

Just noticed, Galactica made her final jump with her flight pods out, maybe thats what caused the damage? I mean the extra forces exerted on the ship because of the higher amount of ship to effect. It makes sense that Galactica jumping without her pods retracted would place extraordinary amount of stress on the ship. Every other time even when dropping through the atmosphere at New Caprica the Galactica always had her pods retracted fro a jump.
--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 08:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

:That could very well have been a contributing factor, but there are many other factors in play, too, namely
:*her age,
:*compromises made during construction,
:*accumulated stresses and fractures from past battle damage and the sheer number of jumps,
:*lack of proper dock repair and maintenance,
:*her last sustained pounding at close-range, and ramming into the Colony.
:And consider that Adama and Tigh were told that she only had a few more jumps in her before she suffers structural damage. The old girl was already falling apart.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 13:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I remember that one of the specialists told Adama that Galactica had 5 jumps left max, but nevermind it I just took notice of it and wanted to see what everyone else thought of it. EDIT: Also noticed that Glactica's flight pods went up and down of their own accord after the jump, maybe thats why they retract the pods? I think the Mercuries could non-retract jump because of the way their support struts are placed. By the looks of it the movement of the pods was absolutely massive and that kind of stress would most certainly break Galactica's back no matter what sort of structural damage she had before. --[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 07:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

:A suspension bridge's cables snap, and the road buckles. Overwhelming stresses on the road deform it, and the cables snap. A similar arguement can be made for the flight pods. There could have been torque forces on the pods, but the loss of lateral supports could have affected the ship's rigidity that caused the body to flex, which could also cause the flight pods to sway, too.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 07:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

==Cylon Longevity==

According to [[No Exit]], Ellen and the others created Cavil in the image of her father, so it stands to reason that, 40 years prior to the fall of the colonies, he was already a man in his 70'(s?) and in fact had not aged in those four decades. It can be assumed that the same holds true for the other six humanoid cylons, all of which were considerably younger than him.

The point here is, if humaoid Cylons don't age then the surviving Cylons who didn't make it to Earth wouldn't have died out as it has been speculated, be it from old age or lack of mates to reproduce with. Their longevity could surpass human longevity and they could be alive at the end of the series.

Furthermore there's the issue of boxing. They could have boxed themselves as a form of suspended animation to ensure their survival and programmed Guardian Centurions to watch over them.

All in all, there are many number of ways in which the humanoid Cylons that didn't make it to Earth could have survived. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit: Now that I think about it, what about the Cylons who did make it to Earth? If they don't age, how did they die out? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

: Perhaps aging was only a non-issue when they had resurrection tech. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::You mean, they did age but then transfered their conciousness to younger bodies? That's possible. What about the option to box their conciousness? They could still survive that way (sure, their bodies might die out without some form of suspended animation given that they are biological, but their conciousness could survive as 1s and 0s that could be downloaded into new bodies 150,000 years later). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Removed questions ==

I've removed the following questions:
* Who were/are the Lords of Kobol?
** Good question, but not one with any connection to this episode.
* What year is the present day?
** I'm not sure what this is asking. We are shown that the Colonial's present is 150 000 years before our own.
* Who is the dying leader? Laura Roslin? Galactica? Starbuck?
** The narrative gives us many explicit statements that it is Roslin, and she fits the role perfectly, making it unnecessary to try and jam someone else into the position. Doing so without clear indications from the show is speculation.
* What’s the deal with Kara Thrace?
** She was sent back by "God" as an angel to guide the people to the new Earth. Covered fairly conclusively, if not explicitly.
* What is the true nature of the Head People?
** They were angels, as was stated many times.
* Who or what is guiding events?
** Something akin to "God", though it doesn't like to be called that. I think this is covered sufficiently in the earlier question about why "God" is guiding events.
* Is Virtual Baltar really the archangel Gabriel? If not, is Virtual Leobon? (Assuming they're not actually the same being, that is.)
** Theory without basis in the show.
--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 23:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

== Parallel evolution ==

It is implausible scientifically that Earth humans and Colonials just happened to evolve in parallel without outside influence (possibly from the head beings). Therefore, I wouldn't state it as fact that they're alien to each other -- there is no support for that in the show. The facts are that they can mate and that the characters are surprised about humans existing on Earth, but I wouldn't go as far as drawing conclusions about the origins of Colonials and humans. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

:It could be that in the Galactica universe humans are the standard of life across the universe, which is why they never encountered other life forms during their travels. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:: I covered this on this very talkpage [[#The_Angels_Make_Life_In_This_Galaxy_Boringly_Homogenous. | here. ]] Basically, the [[Angel]]s guide evolution subtly by such means as dropping huge asteroids on the dinosaurs so that they can create dodos in their place. Because of these [[Angel]]s life is the same everywhere right down to identical pianofortes playing [[the Music | All Along The Watchtower. ]]

:: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 18:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::Most importantly, don't forget the suits and ties, which were reinvented by accident or through the collective unconscious. Back to the topic, though - all I'm saying is that the fact that Earth humans are primitive in that era does not necessarily imply that the Colonials evolved totally independently on Kobol and are therefore aliens, as the note in the article stated. No need to make such bold conclusions for the sake of "You know what that actualy means?"-type trivia; we know the visible facts, and they should be reported as such, and we know there is a LOT that we don't know about the head beings, which opens up any number of possibilities for future storytelling. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 20:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::"And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees" The Algae planet could have been terraformed by the 13th Tribe before they reached Earth (maybe they intended to settle there but then learned of the supernova and changed their minds, but not after they had terraformed the planet and built the temple). New Caprica had trees? Wasn't it mostly a desert? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::: I shall address the remarks of Graf Iblis, None Of Your Business, and Man of the Atom together:

::::: What Graf Iblis says could make sense:

::::: Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense.

::::: About the trees on New Caprica, trees on our Earth come in 3 shapes:

* - Cone-Shaped

* - Mushroom-Shaped

* - Palm-Tree-Shaped

::::: For all 3 shapes one can find both angiosperms and gymnosperms. For the Palm-Tree-shaped we even have some ferns too. Convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs probably can explain the trees looking alike.

::::: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 23:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::: If the same tree species, and foxes, and chickens, and so on, can evolve on different planets without terraforming, humans aren't a stretch. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: But the trees need not be the same species on New Caprica.. Indeed, they may have only a superficial resemblance to each other. Despite looking externally similar ichthyosaurs and sharks are very different. For foxes, pidgins, humans, et cetera to be on both Cobol and our Earth, the [[Angel]]s would have to stear biological evolution on both planets or scooped up these organisms on our Earth where we know for a fact they evolved and taken them to Cobol.

::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: And the Twelve Colonies, if humans didn't bring them from Kobol (and I doubt they did). -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 03:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: It was mine understanding that the Colonists brought life from Cobol and terraformed the 12 planets orbiting a few stars in an open star-cluster.

::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::: No one ever said this. Was it in the role-playing game? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::: No. It just 1 of only 2 ideas making sense:

# - The Colonists terraformed several planets orbiting several stars in an open starcluster.
# - The Colonists rearranged 12 planets and moons of a star so that they all orbit stably within the habitable zone of a star and then terraformed them.

::::::::::: Nowhere in the show do we see any hint of the capability to move planets.

::::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::::: Or there were twleve habitable planets. It's not that far-fetched in light of Earth and Kobol both having humans. If you think that both did naturally. Which I do, since the Colonials had the concept of evolution. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 02:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::::: > “Or there were twleve habitable planets.”

::::::::::::: You want something that cannot be. One cannot have twelve planets forming the habitable zone of a star. Even if one could, not all twelve would be habitable.

::::::::::::: > “It’s not that far-fetched in light of Earth and Kobol both having humans. If you think that both did naturally. Which I do, since the Colonials had the concept of evolution”

::::::::::::: > They could not both have evolved naturally. Biological evolution has 2 components:

# - Natural Selection
# - Random Mutation

::::::::::::: Natural selection is not random, but random selection is random. The solution-space is too large and the process to stochastic. One would not have humans and chickens arising on other worlds. ¿Does Australia have bison or kangaroos? Even with extreme convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs, they do not become the same species like Colonials and the humans on our Earth.

::::::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: "Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense." It goes without saying that BSG left people wanting more. One thing I would like to know more about is who the Lords of Kobol were, what their relationship with the Angels/Messengers was, and who the jealous Lord that Elosha mentioned in "Kobol's Last Gleaming" was meant to be. Was he Iblis? Was he God? Was Iblis meant to be God? According to some text on the first season finale's page, RDM wanted Dirk Benedick to play Iblis and introduce himself to Baltar as God. Could this still happen? Did RDM change his mind and made God a "force of nature", or did Iblis/Jealous Lord EVOLVE into a force of nature? Is it that he (it?) doesn't like to be called God because he prefers to be called "Iblis"? Wasn't Iblis refered to as Lord in the original show? (Lord Iblis sounds right to me). Iblis as the one true God who orchestrated everything that happened to the Colonials and the Cylons... wouldn't that be a twist (just like Starbuck being a woman was a twist) on the original? Iblis goes from being Satan to being God... I HOPE that this is explored more deeply in Caprica... How could it NOT be given that it features a religious school, right? What else will those characters talk about if not Colonial theology and the Lords of Kobol (as well as the jealous Lord of Kobol). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: I doubt that Ronald D. Moore will ever directly answer these questions. He will probably just frak up our minds even more.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: There's a chance that RDM intended to answer these and other questions on BSG, but when the opportunity came to develop a spin off (Caprica) he could have made the choice to abandon these plots and focus on the survival aspect of the story instead and keep them to be developed later in Caprica. With characters like the teacher/nun who believes in the "one true God", locations like the Athena school (is is Athena? I forget), and the cult of religious believers that Zoe Graystone's boyfriend belongs to, there's considerable evidence to believe that these topics will be explored in the series, either as fully-developed plots or just casual conversation (i.e. dialogue spoken in a classroom, a conversation between this teacher/nun and maybe a younger Elosha in the school's quad)... It would stand to reason that given that Caprica seems to be more deeply rooted in the theology of BSG that it would explore these ideas, which might be why they stopped being an issue in BSG, which was more about finding Earth/a new world than in about discovering the "truth of God". --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 01:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: I always figured that it is just another crazy cult. On our Earth, people blow themselves up in the name of the one true god all of the time. The one true cylon-god is nothing more than the one true god of the cult of the of true god.

::::::::: Both Joseph Adams and William Adama are atheists. Lee Adama seems indifferent to religion. I wonder whether this is nature or nurture.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: It could be a result of their loosing their family in the explosion. It could be that Joseph decides that religion only results in hatred (it is religion that pushes Zoe's boyfriend into detonating the bomb). The question is in finding the link between the Cylon's worship of the one true God and the cult that Zoe's boyfriend belogns to. Why would Daniel Graystone instill religion into the Cylons? If not him, then who, how, and why? Is it Zoe's friend? Is it the teacher/nun? Is it Virtual Zoe? Why would any Graystone believe in the one true God whose followers caused the death of Zoe, Adama's sister and mother, and all those other people?... Speaking of Virtual Zoe, will she be connected to Virtual Six and Virtual Baltar? Is the one true God really a divine being (i.e. a Lord of Kobol), a "force of nature", or a man inside a space ship (a ship of lights, if you will) who uses Graystone's Cylon and Virtual echnologies to influence Colonial life (well, that might not track given that the messengers visited the 13th Colony 2000 years prior to the creation of the Cononial Cylons, but wouldn't it be cool if it did, heh?). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 13:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: The messengers saw Kobol and Earth as well as Caprica, so they can't be the product of Graystone technology. Right now, the best answer for the Centurions' monotheism is that they're Zoe's descendants. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC)== The Colonials were NOT "human" (in the modern sense) ==
I've restored the bit about the characters not being "human" in the modern sense of the term and that the series was fundamentally the saga of an alien race. If you actually listened to Dr. Cottle, he said the DNA of the early Earth humans is "compatible" to Colonial DNA. He didn't say it was exactly the same. Going by that, it's completely fair to conclude that the Colonials and early humans were NOT genetically identical. They simply had analogous DNA structures. We already know they had at least one physiological difference: the Colonials didn't have a universal blood donor type.

As for "our" connection with them; within the ''Battlestar Galactica'' universe, modern humans are NOT Colonials. We are a hybridization of Colonials AND the native humans. So the characters of ''Battlestar Galactica'' were indeed "aliens" and not "human" in the sense of what we consider human today. By the nature of them not evolving on Earth, they were most certainly extraterrestrial. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]]

: Extraterrestrial and alien have different meanings. The former simply means "not from Earth", the latter is a relative term for something the speaker has no relationship to. It is obvious that Colonials are extraterrestrial. They are not alien to us, just as the Cylons and the Earth natives are not.

: There's no evidence that they didn't have a universal blood donor type. The copy of Baltar's Lab Notes sold at the big auction shows that Hera's blood was unusual because it had no antigens whatsoever, not just ABO. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:21, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
---------------
Here are my problems with the paragraph:

1) The revelation that the Colonial "humans" evolved separately from Earth humans...

::Where is this demonstrated in the series? All we know for sure is that practically identical Colonials arrived on our Earth more than 150,000 years ago. We have absolutely no idea how they came to be on Kobol. Why are you so eager to jump to conclusions about totally separate evolution processes of practically identical races, especially with the huge uncertainty factor of the "God" entity taking an active part in everyone's life? I would be extremely careful - if the "God" entity is so powerful and capable of surviving over 150,000 years, it could have manipulated life on Kobol based on life on Earth. No need to ignore the scientific facts of evolution in that case. Therefore, I propose to stick to the facts, and not espouse anyone's theory of how the two groups evolved, either yours or mine. The Colonials arrived on Earth 150,000 years ago and they can mate with the local population. That's it.

2) ...means that fundamentally none of the so-called "human" characters of the series were actually human in the sense of what we consider human today. Instead, they were an outwardly indistinguishable from Homo sapiens extraterrestrial species with compatible DNA to Homo sapiens as a result of a parallel evolution.

::Again, no evidence for parallel evolution, which would be extremely unlikely. The facts are: Colonials came from Kobol as far as they know, although they don't know much about their early history.

3) The reimagined Battlestar Galactica was actually the saga of an alien race.

::No proof. In order to prove that it is an alien race, you have to prove that they evolved completely separately, despite all the physical similarities and an extremely influential "God" entity observing the events over hundreds of thousands of years and taking an active part in them.

It is extremely important to stick to verifiable facts on such shaky ground, with so much about the "God" entity remaining unknown. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

*[[Jane Espenson]] (one of BSG's writers and executive producers) has confirmed in an interview that Kobol was indeed the "original origin point for humanity" (i.e. Colonials) [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html]. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 21:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

:I think this is likely the case, but unfortunately her wording is "I've always taken it to be Kobol." -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

:Jane, Ron, any writer or producer. If you see this, could you please clear things up for us? --- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 21:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
-----
As noted, she assumed it to be Kobol. If you quote her exactly, I don't mind, but that does not mean that Ron Moore shares the opinion absolutely, without possibility of change, or that any other writers do. Remember how fluid and unpredictable BSG writing tends to be? She also indicated in another interview that the Angels may be aliens, which is something that Ron Moore wasn't specific about; they really prefer to leave a lot of this to our interpretation. Again, quoting her on that is fine, but it should not be stated as undisputable fact. If you include the source, the reader will know that the statement does not have the same value as an onscreen demonstration, and that there are alternative explanations as well. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 21:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

-----

Wouldn't the Colonials fall within the category of Missing Link between modern humanity and the "Colonial-compatible human life" they found on Earth (2). meaning that, since modern man is the child of the mating of Colonials and those humans, he shares more in commun with them than he does with the humans they found here?

In other words, modern man, as the child of the Colonials, is the result of mating between aliens and human ancestors who shared communalities wth those aliens, thus making the Colonials humans in the modern sense since the modern sense of what means to be human is the result of that mixture of races.--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 12:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

:Which is closer to modern man depends on the ratio of Colonial to Earther in the mix. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:28, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

:: Modern Man = The mating of a Colonial/Cylon hybrid (Hera) with either a human from the planet (which might be unlikely given their state of evolution), a Colonial (i.e. Boxey), or a Cylon (which would have to be Leoben since he was the only male Cylon that joined the Civil War on the Sixes' side, right? Simon and Doval stayed with Cavil). How likely is it that Hera would have mated with a native during her lifetime? Would the Colonials and Cylons have integrated themselves that early into the populace, or waited until they achieved a higher degree of evolution (i.e. invent the wheel)? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

== Daybreak Three-Parter ==

In Latin America, Daybreak is airing as a three-parter. Today, part II just finished airing here and it had the following differences from the two-hour version detailed in this article (in all likelihood this is the syndicated version. I don't know if that has already aired in the US).

The following two summaries from the article are the two scenes that have been omitted from the second chapter of the three-parter version of Daybreak:

*Elsewhere, Laura Roslin greets her date, Sean Allison, at her home. She eventually recognizes him as a former student from years ago. Despite the age difference, Roslin decides to let him stay the night.

*A flashback scene shows what Boomer meant: a time back in her days on 'Galactica, as Adama and Tigh redress her but give her another chance to be a better pilot.

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-05-17T20:55:36Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Parallel evolution */

== Move ==
Why move this? The way I understand this, this is still episode 20, but it will be lengthened to actually be 3 episodes long. So in a away there are 21/22 episodes even, and not 19. However, [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/06/battlestars-fin.html This] says that the season will be 11 hours and not 12, but that doesn't mean that we need to get rid of episode 19 already. Especially given that the finale will probably air in at least 2 parts. So it makes some sense to have separate episodes guides for two airings. By production numbers this would be one episode, but split apart by airdate numbers. Maybe we should wait for some further clarification. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:It could be split up into 3 parts in reruns. I think it would be easier to start with a single article and then split as necessary after it airs. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::If Sci Fi is gonna pull a Miniseries and air this thing in two parts, we should pull a Miniseries too and have [[Miniseries, Night 1|separate]] [[Miniseries, Night 2|articles]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Which we can do after we know where the break point is. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 09:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to split the article at this time. We won't know how things will be aired until they're actually aired. All we know for now is that the finale's been extended... that's it. Creating two or three sections based on something we have absolutely very little information on is just... ill-advised. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 13:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:The proposal wasn't a split, but a merge with 419 I think (the article exists. It just isn't linked to, because it's an empty skeleton). But the result is the same. The way I understand it, 419+420 will be the finale then, with both episodes running 3 hours together (incl. ads I guess). We'll see. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::Ah, ok. Sounded like it would be a split, with at least one additional article, seeing as each article would cover an hour. Anyway, we don't have enough information to be certain; it's still really all up in the air, and they have now until doomsday to figure out how to release the thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

==Title==
''Daybreak, Part 2'' (and ''Part 3'') [http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/09/battlestar-galactica-cruise-book.html according to producer Mark Verheiden].--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 19:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE change the title of the page to Part II & Part III -- It is being sold on iTunes, Amazon, etc. and two completely different episodes and this actually screwed me up immensely because I ended up reading spoilers for Part 3 before I started watching it. Yes, this is how it aired, but it is not how it is being archived. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 13:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Analysis==
"Ronald D. Moore appears in a cameo as the man holding a National Geographic magazine in New York City. "

I think there is much more to it. Ronald D. Moore is appearing as himself reading that article because his knowledge of "Eve" influenced the series. In other words, the series is a result of the events depicted in the series. With that scene, Battlestar Galactica becomes part of Battlestar Galactica.

:This is impossibel since as of 2009 mitochondrial Eve's remains haven't been found yet, this scene is set in the future, after the series ended.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::Checkout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve. First articals apearred in 2003 ;)

It's not the same thing: we've known about mitochondrial Eve since before the series started, but her actual remains have not been found, there were never any bones of her found up to this day.
It's possible that Moore knowing about Eve's existence may have influenced the show, but he has never read an NGC article about the finding of her remains, simply because those remains haven't been found and thus never made their way into an NGC article.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Notes==

I recognised it immediately when watching the episode (and it's already on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_(Battlestar_Galactica)#Outside_references ), the "Kodiak" spacecraft from Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun can be seen among the fleet during this episode.

==(Un)answered questions)==

The following Ron Moore interview clears up some misunderstandings about the show: http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html

1) Kara Thrace's father was NOT the lost cylon Daniel.

2) The Missiles Racetrack's Raptor (accidentally) fires at the cylon colony were nukes that severely damaged the colony and made it fall from its stable orbit into the singularity (black hole) so the colony has been utterly destroyed.

3) The Earth which is discovered in this episode is not the same planet that was discovered in "Revelations." The Earth of "Revelations" was not the planet we now live on, but our Earth was named after it.

There are still a bunch of unanswered questions:

1) What is the nature of the divine power (although this was probably intentionally left unanswered.)

2) Who were the Lords of Kobol and what happened to that world?

3) How did the colonials get from Kobol to the colonies and if they were technologically advanced, how did they loose all knowledge of Kobol, save for some religious texts?

4) What happened to those who nuked the old Earth 2000 years ago, some of these victors would have survived, but they re never seen or heard from.

5) Why didn't Cavil and his cylons try to re-invent resurrection themselves as the technology wasn't that far ahead of them (it was re-invented by the final five on old-Earth in a civilization that hadn't even invented jump drives.)

6) How could the resurrection hub control all resurrection ships while there was never any mention of FTL-communication on the show and why wasn't the resurrection hub integrated into the colony rather than floating around in deep space, vulnerable and guarded by only 2 baseships.

7) Was the colony really the place where all cylons lived, was their civilization so small (and clearly no match for the colonial military before the holocaust) and are there no baseships left out there that still have cylons aboard who want to exact their revenge on humanity? They may die out like the article suggests, but there's nothing stopping them from taking Earth with them (provided they find it within their lifetime.)

8) What happened to the other rebel cylons? Was it just the 3 baseships that rebelled, and if not, where are the other 2's, 6's and 8's?

9) How did Lee get everyone to agree to give up technology (even medical)?

10) Had it not made more sense to build new cities on Earth and rebuild the advanced colonial civilization, when everyone understood how important equal treatment of cylons and humans is, instead of letting Earth's humans build their own civilization thousands of years later, humans who are likely to make the same old mistakes with artificial intelligence and repeat the cycle?

11) How come no intelligent alien life has ever been encountered by colonials or cylons in their histories, but when it finally happens these aliens are identical to humans, who somehow evolved separately from the Kobol humans? Somehow this amazing coincidence being an "act of God" seems like a rather unsatisfactory answer.

12) Since all the fleet's decisions after the Ellen's reapperarance have been about breaking the cycle, is Lee afraid that by having superior technology on earth the cylons and colonials would "enslave" the native population, creating yet another cycle?

-- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

:: He doesn't actually say that about Kara. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

You're right, I've edited my post. -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

: I'd still like to know the origin of Kara's pristine Viper from her resurrection or how she died going into a gas giant with her corpse resting on a planet light-years away. And what the deal is with the Centurions from "Razor" and the Hybrid they deified. And while I understand his prophesy, I'd like to know why the old Hybrid didn't want Kara to lead a new civilisation to Earth. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:36, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Her being sent back with a new viper was supposed to be an act of the divine power. I think the Razor centurions were explained as regular mutineers, they saw the first hybrid as some kind of prophet because of the way it talked and wanted to protect it from being scrapped. Seeing as how Kara was largely responsible for the end of Cylon civilization, except the few centurions that are still left, this explains why '''CYLON''" hybrids call her the harbinger of death (it was never stated she was the harbinger of death for humanity.) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Gully, as for question four the Thirteenth Tribe's Earth got nuked by their Centurions. From the surface, not from space. M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). The Final Five secretly built a ship and rebuilt resurrection (Which the 13th Tribe hadn't needed since first achieving reproduction on Kobol). That was how they escaped. -- [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 04:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: Alright, but being centurions the radiation wouldn't really hurt them, they could easily have created their own civilization after the dust settled (a bit like the machines in the "Terminator".) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Machines can be disabled by radiation, and the impacts themselves would have destroyed the Centurions. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

From the article: “Since the notes of All Along the Watchtower lead to Earth, do they still serve a purpose on Earth?” answer: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen_(film) yes]. -- [[User:LaloMartins|LaloMartins]] 12:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Regarding point six, in [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]], it was stated that, when the [[Resurrection Hub]] jumps, it transmits its' new location to the [[Hybrid]]s, so FTL communication technology definitely exists. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Adding a question on, the CGI Raptor launched ''16'' missiles, why were only 8 shown after the launch scene?--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 06:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

==== What Precisely Killed [[Margaret Edmondson|Racetrack]] and [[Hamish McCall|Skulls]]? ====

The Marines in the rear of the cabin were killed by explosive decompression and vacuum exposure, but Racetrack and Skulls were in sealed pressure suits. I don't recall seeing suit damage in that quick shot of Margaret's hand falling on the missile-launch button. Did the one penetrating rock cause invisible crushing injuries to both of them? It didn't look big enough to hit both of them square on. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 08:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:Skulls whas hit in his face or chest by the rock and there was a small hole in Racetrack's helmet when her hand fell on the button.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

==== [[Delphi]] ====

In the episode "[[Downloaded]]" the cylons were rebuilding the Caprican city of [[Delphi]] and living in it. Was this effort completely abandoned when the Cylons decided to occupy [[New Caprica]]? Or has the effort to recover [[Caprica_(RDM)|Caprica]] continued all this time and is it still occupied? Are there still a substantial number of human-Cylons living on Caprica? Will it become like first Earth before their holocaust, an entirely Cylon-populated society? Are any humans stragglers left alive on either Caprica or New Caprica? -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 09:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

: They likely did leave the colonies after [[Downloaded]], there may still be some baseships out there, but the cylons on them are aging and cannot procreate. Even if they found Earth within their lifetimes a handful of basestars probably don't have enough nukes to obliterate the Earth's surface, that is assuming they'll actually know humans are living on Earth: it's pretty hard to find a stone age culture or neolithic society from space, even when you're actively looking for them (sure the colonials found one tribe, but in order to kill all humans with a limited number of nukes you'd have to know the positions of every tribe on Earth.)
There may be human survivors left on the colonies but it's unlikely: sure, they may have survived the nukes and the radiation, but the cylons actively hunted them down, probably to populations too small to repopulate the planets.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

:: The Cylons left the Twelve Colonies altogether in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]], remember? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:37, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

==== Lost Viper ====

During the "back-breaking" of ''Galactica'' a Viper fell out of the bow of the port flightpod and floated downward relative to the ship, which was horizontal relative to the moon below. Has RDM mentioned what happened to it? Was it recovered to the ship, was it left adrift in Solar orbit (where it theoretically could still be), or did it crash onto the Moon? (Which would leave wreckage which could be discovered in the present or future.) -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 21:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

==== Birch trees ====

(A notation rather than a question.) Birch trees don't grow and never grew in Africa, yet we clearly see them in /B/r/i/t/i/s/h/ /C/o/l/u/m/b/i/a/ Africa at the Colonial landing site. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 21:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

== The Angels Make Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. ''

----
From Act 10 section of article: "(This is in the year 1987 AD.)" How can it be 1987 when the flat panel TV clearly showed MSNBC logo at the bottom? MSNBC was created in 1996.--[[User:Steven512|Steven512]] 14:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Yes, the robots you see in this scene were also developed after 1987 and as far as I know the remains of mitochondrial Eve have never been found.
In 1987 it was discovered that there had been a mitochondrial Eve, this was based on DNA-research among modern humans, her actual remains have not been found to this day so the scene takes place in the near future (it could even be tomorrow), not in 1987!
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

== Hera's Mate = Boxey? ==

From the notes section

''On the second Earth Hera's mate that produced children was most likely human. Saul Tigh and the Leobens would be too old for her. While it was fairly common in ancient times for the men to be far older than their brides (particularly with royalty), for example with the female being as young as 12 and and the male being say 60 to take an extreme, Colonial mores, which are much like our own in real life, would forbid the Leobens from sexual congress with Hera when she reach the accepted reproductive age. On the other hand there were many human children about her age and slightly older in the Fleet. She could had also had children with a human child unborn at the time of the landing on Second Earth perhaps within five years to ten years of her age. It is possible that other hybrid children could had been born after the landing given that the Twos, Sixes, and Eights joined the humans. And it is possible that pure Cylon children could had been born to the age compatible Sixes, Eights, and Leobens but as noted in the series it is difficult if not impossible for a pure Cylon child to come to term making any pool of pure Cylon children that were successfully born very small. Cylon-Human mating with a human male with a Six or a Sharon is very possible with the example of Hera herself an significantly more likely than with a Cylon-Cylon birth, but it is harder than with human-human pairings making any pool of those pairing while much more likely and larger than Cylon-Cylon offspring, still quite small number compared to pure human offspring. Therefore Hera's offspring is most likely with a human. A more remote possibility is with another Cylon-human hybrid. Her producing children with a pure Cylon offspring is the least likely since pure Cylons are the least likely to exist.''

Boxey could be Hera's mate. It would make sense.

Boxey as Y-chromosomal Adam? Or would that be "Adama"? heh--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: The chromosomal Adam live tens of thousands of years after the Mitochondrial Eve.

: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 17:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
::Walabio is right and why would it be more likely for Hera to end up with Boxey instead of with one of the other hundreds of children from the fleet?
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 18:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::The ''Y-chromosomal Adam'' reference was to make the pun based on Boxey being Apollo's adopted son in TOS :). As for why it would make sense, it be for no other reason that it would give the RDM version of the character some (belated) importance, which he lacked through the run of the show. Why have her end up with some random kid from the fleet than have her end up with a character who had some level of development? Plus, look at it this way, the original intent according to some references on this site say that the plan was to make Boxey, Tyrol, and Sharon (Boomer) a makeshift family. Having him end up with Hera accomplishes part of that intent as he'd be related to one version of Sharon (Athena)--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It is a moot point. He had NO relevant to BSG any more since they dropped him as a character. If they didn't drop him as a character I think the perfect end would had been making him that guy that was killed in the mutiny, you know the one that acted as a runner between CIC and some damaged area of the ship to get a damage report for Adama at the near the beginning of the mutiny? He was then later killed by Gaeta's trigger happy Marines when he pushed Adama to the deck, saving his life. That would had been a good way for Boxey to go. He would had been the right age (17) and would had gave his character an ultimate purpose, to save Adama when the time came.
::: Of course it is possible for Boxey and Hera to had gotten together. He would had been 14 years old when Hera was born but with Hera say 20 years old Boxey would had been 34, a reasonable age difference allowable in both our and Colonial Society. And further it would had been another of the shows many ironies and "what goes around, comes around" themes: Boxey, who was taken in by Boomer, an Eight as a quasi foster son, later marries the daughter of Athena, an Eight, who was stolen and then given back by Boomer who was then killed Athena. Imagine all the physiological turmoil that could case Boxey. This show thrived on that sort of thing. LOL [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

== Number Three ==

Couldn't they have sent a Raptor or an FTL-capable ship to find Number Three and bring her to the New Earth with them? It would have been the humane thing to do. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: She was left on a dead-to-humans world, where the only plant life we saw were grasses or other non-edibles, with a background radiation count above the safe level beyond short exposure: even the water was contaminated. She probably died within a few weeks of being left behind. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 12:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Good point. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It was established by Athena in [[The Passage]] that Cylons are far more resistant to radiation than humans are. In fact they bombed [[Caprica]] and the other Colonies with high yield nuclear weapons '''outside''' the cities so they could kill the humans but keep the buildings and infrastructure intact. We saw them settling in [[Caprica City]] in "[[Downloaded]]" even reopening the coffee shops, so radiation is of no problem to them (except for the rare special kind of Nebula radiation at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]) So it is possible for [[D'Anna Biers]] to survive the radiation of Earth One and even drink the rain water. Food on the other hand would be a problem and I saw no evidence of surviving animal life, and this all assumes that she wanted to survive, which I don't think she would due to staying on the radioactive rock in the first place. Still, it would had been a nice thing to try to find her. Maybe a miracle would had happened LOL. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 00:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

== "No Further Significant Revelations..."==

I think this statement in the advisory tag is premature. There's still "The Plan", as well as, in theory, the Caprica series, both of which might provide further revelations with regards to Daybreak and the series itself. Certainly The Plan, anyway. Not to mention the presumed deleted scenes that will be on the DVD and there's a rumor Daybreak will be extended for the DVD as well. There's still a chance for some issues to be resolved. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 13:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:That's interesting. I don't expect The Plan to reveal much of anything about what Kara became or who the Virtual beings were, but Caprica might explore it given the establishment that they appear at times when the cycle of time (machine on human violence) begins. Caprica might provide the answers to the lingering questions if for nothing more than to give fans of BSG a reason to watch. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::Let's hope so, though I don't expect they will reveal much more about the divine powers or the angels, ever. It would take away the mystery and the sense that there is something bigger than us (humans and cylons), now we are left wondering if the divine power is a God, or just a very advanced race (maybe the perpetrators (or their descendents) of the first holocaust during the first cycle are feeling guilty) and I think that's how Ron Moore intended it to be. However, ''Caprica'' may reveal more about colonial history: what happened to Kobol, how did humans move from Kobol to the colonies, why was that history almost completely forgotten (was there a colonial dark age) and who or what were the Lords of Kobol? --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:::I'm sure that many people would agree, or at least theorize, that the virtual beings are Moore's version of the beings of light from the Ship of Lights, especially considering what happened to Kara, which I've seen (here or elsewhere, I forget) compared to what happened to the Starbuck from the original series on the last episode of Galactica 80. I think that the reason why Moore must have decided to leave things vague is that he didn't want to "cheapen it" by introducing something like the Ship of Lights into his show, which was more realistic than the original version. Now that I think about it, when Baltar tells Six that "it" doesn't like to be called God, it could be that "it" is the Ship of Lights or whatever version of it that exist in this version of the story. It would be cool if there was more exploration of this in Caprica, as well as further exploration of the "jealous God" from Kobol (which I'm sure we'll hear more of due to this headmistress in Caprica who doesn't believe in the Lords of Kobol) and all the other lingering questions from the show. In fact, given that religion is an important aspect of Caprica as it was in BSG (RDM) I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more of this down the line. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 17:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::::Hi, guys. Here's my two cents, since I'm the Senior Chief that added the special notice. "No further significant revelations" means "the story is generally over." BSG isn't Star Trek, guys. RDM has stated that there are some elements of the story that he wouldn't resolve, but that he would resolve the important stuff. Is that etched in stone somewhere? No. I'm sure ''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'' may open a few new questions. But until that series debuts, what we have is what we have. Battlestar Wiki allows some speculation because we're talking about a work of fiction. But to speculate further when no further answers are likely and people are making what's otherwise original research--that's [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]], and it's not allowed on Battlestar Wiki. For the purposes of this episode summary because its so long (and must be), we have to keep focus and not overload the article. Episode summaries are the only articles where questions can be asked (provided they don't go out of control) but many questions will not be answered. As soon as the noise dies down we can move some pressing questions to [[BW:OC|our special Q&A page answered by BSG co-producer Bradley Thompson]]. In my opinion, the nature of the Virtual Beings and Kara have been answered as far as RDM wanted to do. They are beings of divine source--and folks, religion is one thing that RDM loved to keep close to his chest to add to the BSG mystique. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::::: I'm not saying that The Plan is going to answer all the unanswered questions, etc. However The Plan has been acknowledged as the coda for this series, and just as important to it as Razor was. However the special notice as I saw it wasn't just in reference to Daybreak, but to the Wiki in general, and that's where I think it's premature. In terms of Daybreak itself, I agree that any additional revelations in The Plan will likely be minor and there are unlikely to be any in Caprica at all relating to that particular episode. But I think questions that come to mind are still worth asking with regards to characters that could be addressed in The Plan. And unless someone has already seen The Plan, or RDM has explicitly stated otherwise, we can't really predict which characters may or may not be addressed. Something that might be interesting once The Plan airs and is analysed is to go through the episode articles and compile the outstanding questions that the series has left unanswered. I think there will be fewer than some think, with the remainder being just enough to put this series into the same league as "The Prisoner" in that people will still be arguing over "what does it mean" 40 years from now. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

== How did the fleet reach Earth 2 / New Earth? ==
As far as I understood it before Galactica departed for the Colony they agreed to a rendezvous location with the fleet. But when jumping away from the colony Starbuck punched in the numbers of the song and Galactica jumped for its last time. But when it reappeared over New Earth the fleet also jumped right in. How did they get the coordinates (a raptor jumping to the rendezvous location?)? But how did they get them so fast? [[User:DJ Doena|DJ Doena]] 14:02, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:Galactica still had a few raptors left (we saw 7 of them landed on Earth) and 12 hours passed between the shot of Galactica jumping near the Moon and the rest of the fleet showing up, nothing fishy going on there. --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::The key here was time pressure. Someone had the coordinates, but with the chaos of getting sucked into a black hole, no one could give them to Kara in time before ''Galactica's'' final jump. When all was stable, someone remembered/recalled the Fleet's coordinates, sent a Raptor, and all was good. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:You missed the letters onscreen spelling "Twelve Hours Later". -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Consolidation change ==

Hey everyone! I just wanted to take a moment to explain the format and consolidation change for Act I. This change is a test for updating the event summary because:

*Each detail does not require a bullet.
*Having bullets for every event make it look redundant.

*However, having bullets between major events makes the summary flow a little better. This was the approach I used when summarizing [[Daybreak, Part I]]. It gives each scene a sense of distinction, like this example.

Are there any other opinions regarding this proposed change? If it's OK, I can start work on the other acts. -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 20:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:Given the massive data, it's okay to condense a few points. But keep it to maybe three or four lines condensed. Any larger and it's hard to follow. Try to keep it looking like the other episode guides as much as possible for consistency. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for the working guideline. As of this writing, Act I & II are done, and starting on the rest. Hope you guys like it! -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 07:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

==The robot at the end==
I corrected an addition in Story Notes that suggested the female robot at the very end is the one that was unveiled only a few days before the broadcast. That would have been very cool, but it's actually the "Actroid" which was unveiled 4 years ago. Interestingly I found Actroid, a 4-year-old technology, to be more lifelike than the one unveiled last week... [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

==The model on the cover of "Sports Limited"==
Here's a challenge for those who watched this on HD sets... I've heard it suggested that the model on the cover of "Sports Limited" (the SI-like magazine seen on the newsstand) might actually be Tricia Helfer. I can't tell at all on the computer-screen I'm using, but it might be a neat bit of trivia (not to mention it would open a line of speculation as to whether the Sixes have survived to the present day) if it's true. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 16:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

== Questions Section ==

I can never be more blunt than I tried to be before on these last two guides. The questions sections follow strict rules [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions/Episode_Guides#Questions_Section]] is the policy on this section. I am going to again clear out the questions section with the bad stuff. Users who do not follow our polices on the [[BW:SAC]] will be warned and if after being warned by doing it again, will be banned. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 02:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== Lie-dector test "question" ==

In the Questions section, somebody asked:'' "During the lie detector test in the flashback scene of William Adama's attempt to secure a civilian job, why did the interrogator ask him if he was a Cylon?"''

This was a control question in order to get a baseline from which to compare the real questions for deception. Such as if a polygraph-operator were to ask "Are you a dinosaur?" This fact was made immediately clear in the dialogue. This was in no way left unclear. It's not a mystery. It's not even a debate.

I've deleted it.

== What year is it "question" ==

Another rediculous addition to the Questions section: ''"What year is it on Earth during the final scene?"''

That too was answered by the title: "150,000 Years Later". Go back 150,000 years from 2009 AD, and you have the answer: 148000 B.C.E.

I've deleted the question.

== Regarding my edits to Questions Section ==

I've removed these three questions:

* Why so many zeros in the Model 0005?
* Does either Battlestar Galactica TV series exist in some form on the new Earth?
* Who or what is God exactly?

The first two are completely and utterly ridiculous and do not have any merit as questions. They will never be answered, and it's simply beneath the scope of what questions should be in that section in the first place.

The third question has been pretty much answered in the series by Baltar, who is essentially the mouthpiece of the writers coda on that subject. In the universe of BSG, God is a force of nature who doesn't like the name "God." -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== Galactica breaking her back ==

Just noticed, Galactica made her final jump with her flight pods out, maybe thats what caused the damage? I mean the extra forces exerted on the ship because of the higher amount of ship to effect. It makes sense that Galactica jumping without her pods retracted would place extraordinary amount of stress on the ship. Every other time even when dropping through the atmosphere at New Caprica the Galactica always had her pods retracted fro a jump.
--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 08:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

:That could very well have been a contributing factor, but there are many other factors in play, too, namely
:*her age,
:*compromises made during construction,
:*accumulated stresses and fractures from past battle damage and the sheer number of jumps,
:*lack of proper dock repair and maintenance,
:*her last sustained pounding at close-range, and ramming into the Colony.
:And consider that Adama and Tigh were told that she only had a few more jumps in her before she suffers structural damage. The old girl was already falling apart.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 13:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I remember that one of the specialists told Adama that Galactica had 5 jumps left max, but nevermind it I just took notice of it and wanted to see what everyone else thought of it. EDIT: Also noticed that Glactica's flight pods went up and down of their own accord after the jump, maybe thats why they retract the pods? I think the Mercuries could non-retract jump because of the way their support struts are placed. By the looks of it the movement of the pods was absolutely massive and that kind of stress would most certainly break Galactica's back no matter what sort of structural damage she had before. --[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 07:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

:A suspension bridge's cables snap, and the road buckles. Overwhelming stresses on the road deform it, and the cables snap. A similar arguement can be made for the flight pods. There could have been torque forces on the pods, but the loss of lateral supports could have affected the ship's rigidity that caused the body to flex, which could also cause the flight pods to sway, too.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 07:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

==Cylon Longevity==

According to [[No Exit]], Ellen and the others created Cavil in the image of her father, so it stands to reason that, 40 years prior to the fall of the colonies, he was already a man in his 70'(s?) and in fact had not aged in those four decades. It can be assumed that the same holds true for the other six humanoid cylons, all of which were considerably younger than him.

The point here is, if humaoid Cylons don't age then the surviving Cylons who didn't make it to Earth wouldn't have died out as it has been speculated, be it from old age or lack of mates to reproduce with. Their longevity could surpass human longevity and they could be alive at the end of the series.

Furthermore there's the issue of boxing. They could have boxed themselves as a form of suspended animation to ensure their survival and programmed Guardian Centurions to watch over them.

All in all, there are many number of ways in which the humanoid Cylons that didn't make it to Earth could have survived. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit: Now that I think about it, what about the Cylons who did make it to Earth? If they don't age, how did they die out? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

: Perhaps aging was only a non-issue when they had resurrection tech. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::You mean, they did age but then transfered their conciousness to younger bodies? That's possible. What about the option to box their conciousness? They could still survive that way (sure, their bodies might die out without some form of suspended animation given that they are biological, but their conciousness could survive as 1s and 0s that could be downloaded into new bodies 150,000 years later). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Removed questions ==

I've removed the following questions:
* Who were/are the Lords of Kobol?
** Good question, but not one with any connection to this episode.
* What year is the present day?
** I'm not sure what this is asking. We are shown that the Colonial's present is 150 000 years before our own.
* Who is the dying leader? Laura Roslin? Galactica? Starbuck?
** The narrative gives us many explicit statements that it is Roslin, and she fits the role perfectly, making it unnecessary to try and jam someone else into the position. Doing so without clear indications from the show is speculation.
* What’s the deal with Kara Thrace?
** She was sent back by "God" as an angel to guide the people to the new Earth. Covered fairly conclusively, if not explicitly.
* What is the true nature of the Head People?
** They were angels, as was stated many times.
* Who or what is guiding events?
** Something akin to "God", though it doesn't like to be called that. I think this is covered sufficiently in the earlier question about why "God" is guiding events.
* Is Virtual Baltar really the archangel Gabriel? If not, is Virtual Leobon? (Assuming they're not actually the same being, that is.)
** Theory without basis in the show.
--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 23:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

== Parallel evolution ==

It is implausible scientifically that Earth humans and Colonials just happened to evolve in parallel without outside influence (possibly from the head beings). Therefore, I wouldn't state it as fact that they're alien to each other -- there is no support for that in the show. The facts are that they can mate and that the characters are surprised about humans existing on Earth, but I wouldn't go as far as drawing conclusions about the origins of Colonials and humans. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

:It could be that in the Galactica universe humans are the standard of life across the universe, which is why they never encountered other life forms during their travels. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:: I covered this on this very talkpage [[#The_Angels_Make_Life_In_This_Galaxy_Boringly_Homogenous. | here. ]] Basically, the [[Angel]]s guide evolution subtly by such means as dropping huge asteroids on the dinosaurs so that they can create dodos in their place. Because of these [[Angel]]s life is the same everywhere right down to identical pianofortes playing [[the Music | All Along The Watchtower. ]]

:: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 18:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::Most importantly, don't forget the suits and ties, which were reinvented by accident or through the collective unconscious. Back to the topic, though - all I'm saying is that the fact that Earth humans are primitive in that era does not necessarily imply that the Colonials evolved totally independently on Kobol and are therefore aliens, as the note in the article stated. No need to make such bold conclusions for the sake of "You know what that actualy means?"-type trivia; we know the visible facts, and they should be reported as such, and we know there is a LOT that we don't know about the head beings, which opens up any number of possibilities for future storytelling. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 20:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::"And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees" The Algae planet could have been terraformed by the 13th Tribe before they reached Earth (maybe they intended to settle there but then learned of the supernova and changed their minds, but not after they had terraformed the planet and built the temple). New Caprica had trees? Wasn't it mostly a desert? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::: I shall address the remarks of Graf Iblis, None Of Your Business, and Man of the Atom together:

::::: What Graf Iblis says could make sense:

::::: Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense.

::::: About the trees on New Caprica, trees on our Earth come in 3 shapes:

* - Cone-Shaped

* - Mushroom-Shaped

* - Palm-Tree-Shaped

::::: For all 3 shapes one can find both angiosperms and gymnosperms. For the Palm-Tree-shaped we even have some ferns too. Convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs probably can explain the trees looking alike.

::::: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 23:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::: If the same tree species, and foxes, and chickens, and so on, can evolve on different planets without terraforming, humans aren't a stretch. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: But the trees need not be the same species on New Caprica.. Indeed, they may have only a superficial resemblance to each other. Despite looking externally similar ichthyosaurs and sharks are very different. For foxes, pidgins, humans, et cetera to be on both Cobol and our Earth, the [[Angel]]s would have to stear biological evolution on both planets or scooped up these organisms on our Earth where we know for a fact they evolved and taken them to Cobol.

::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: And the Twelve Colonies, if humans didn't bring them from Kobol (and I doubt they did). -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 03:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: It was mine understanding that the Colonists brought life from Cobol and terraformed the 12 planets orbiting a few stars in an open star-cluster.

::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::: No one ever said this. Was it in the role-playing game? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::: No. It just 1 of only 2 ideas making sense:

# - The Colonists terraformed several planets orbiting several stars in an open starcluster.
# - The Colonists rearranged 12 planets and moons of a star so that they all orbit stably within the habitable zone of a star and then terraformed them.

::::::::::: Nowhere in the show do we see any hint of the capability to move planets.

::::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::::: Or there were twleve habitable planets. It's not that far-fetched in light of Earth and Kobol both having humans. If you think that both did naturally. Which I do, since the Colonials had the concept of evolution. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 02:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::::: > “Or there were twleve habitable planets.”

::::::::::::: You want something that cannot be. One cannot have twelve planets forming the habitable zone of a star. Even if one could, not all twelve would be habitable.

::::::::::::: > “It’s not that far-fetched in light of Earth and Kobol both having humans. If you think that both did naturally. Which I do, since the Colonials had the concept of evolution”

::::::::::::: > They could not both have evolved naturally. Biological evolution has 2 components:

# - Natural Selection
# - Random Mutation

::::::::::::: Natural selection is not random, but random selection is random. The solution-space is too large and the process to stochastic. One would not have humans and chickens arising on other worlds. ¿Does Australia have bison or kangaroos? Even with extreme convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs, they do not become the same species like Colonials and the humans on our Earth.

::::::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: "Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense." It goes without saying that BSG left people wanting more. One thing I would like to know more about is who the Lords of Kobol were, what their relationship with the Angels/Messengers was, and who the jealous Lord that Elosha mentioned in "Kobol's Last Gleaming" was meant to be. Was he Iblis? Was he God? Was Iblis meant to be God? According to some text on the first season finale's page, RDM wanted Dirk Benedick to play Iblis and introduce himself to Baltar as God. Could this still happen? Did RDM change his mind and made God a "force of nature", or did Iblis/Jealous Lord EVOLVE into a force of nature? Is it that he (it?) doesn't like to be called God because he prefers to be called "Iblis"? Wasn't Iblis refered to as Lord in the original show? (Lord Iblis sounds right to me). Iblis as the one true God who orchestrated everything that happened to the Colonials and the Cylons... wouldn't that be a twist (just like Starbuck being a woman was a twist) on the original? Iblis goes from being Satan to being God... I HOPE that this is explored more deeply in Caprica... How could it NOT be given that it features a religious school, right? What else will those characters talk about if not Colonial theology and the Lords of Kobol (as well as the jealous Lord of Kobol). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: I doubt that Ronald D. Moore will ever directly answer these questions. He will probably just frak up our minds even more.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: There's a chance that RDM intended to answer these and other questions on BSG, but when the opportunity came to develop a spin off (Caprica) he could have made the choice to abandon these plots and focus on the survival aspect of the story instead and keep them to be developed later in Caprica. With characters like the teacher/nun who believes in the "one true God", locations like the Athena school (is is Athena? I forget), and the cult of religious believers that Zoe Graystone's boyfriend belongs to, there's considerable evidence to believe that these topics will be explored in the series, either as fully-developed plots or just casual conversation (i.e. dialogue spoken in a classroom, a conversation between this teacher/nun and maybe a younger Elosha in the school's quad)... It would stand to reason that given that Caprica seems to be more deeply rooted in the theology of BSG that it would explore these ideas, which might be why they stopped being an issue in BSG, which was more about finding Earth/a new world than in about discovering the "truth of God". --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 01:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: I always figured that it is just another crazy cult. On our Earth, people blow themselves up in the name of the one true god all of the time. The one true cylon-god is nothing more than the one true god of the cult of the of true god.

::::::::: Both Joseph Adams and William Adama are atheists. Lee Adama seems indifferent to religion. I wonder whether this is nature or nurture.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: It could be a result of their loosing their family in the explosion. It could be that Joseph decides that religion only results in hatred (it is religion that pushes Zoe's boyfriend into detonating the bomb). The question is in finding the link between the Cylon's worship of the one true God and the cult that Zoe's boyfriend belogns to. Why would Daniel Graystone instill religion into the Cylons? If not him, then who, how, and why? Is it Zoe's friend? Is it the teacher/nun? Is it Virtual Zoe? Why would any Graystone believe in the one true God whose followers caused the death of Zoe, Adama's sister and mother, and all those other people?... Speaking of Virtual Zoe, will she be connected to Virtual Six and Virtual Baltar? Is the one true God really a divine being (i.e. a Lord of Kobol), a "force of nature", or a man inside a space ship (a ship of lights, if you will) who uses Graystone's Cylon and Virtual echnologies to influence Colonial life (well, that might not track given that the messengers visited the 13th Colony 2000 years prior to the creation of the Cononial Cylons, but wouldn't it be cool if it did, heh?). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 13:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: The messengers saw Kobol and Earth as well as Caprica, so they can't be the product of Graystone technology. Right now, the best answer for the Centurions' monotheism is that they're Zoe's descendants. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC)== The Colonials were NOT "human" (in the modern sense) ==
I've restored the bit about the characters not being "human" in the modern sense of the term and that the series was fundamentally the saga of an alien race. If you actually listened to Dr. Cottle, he said the DNA of the early Earth humans is "compatible" to Colonial DNA. He didn't say it was exactly the same. Going by that, it's completely fair to conclude that the Colonials and early humans were NOT genetically identical. They simply had analogous DNA structures. We already know they had at least one physiological difference: the Colonials didn't have a universal blood donor type.

As for "our" connection with them; within the ''Battlestar Galactica'' universe, modern humans are NOT Colonials. We are a hybridization of Colonials AND the native humans. So the characters of ''Battlestar Galactica'' were indeed "aliens" and not "human" in the sense of what we consider human today. By the nature of them not evolving on Earth, they were most certainly extraterrestrial. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]]

: Extraterrestrial and alien have different meanings. The former simply means "not from Earth", the latter is a relative term for something the speaker has no relationship to. It is obvious that Colonials are extraterrestrial. They are not alien to us, just as the Cylons and the Earth natives are not.

: There's no evidence that they didn't have a universal blood donor type. The copy of Baltar's Lab Notes sold at the big auction shows that Hera's blood was unusual because it had no antigens whatsoever, not just ABO. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:21, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
---------------
Here are my problems with the paragraph:

1) The revelation that the Colonial "humans" evolved separately from Earth humans...

::Where is this demonstrated in the series? All we know for sure is that practically identical Colonials arrived on our Earth more than 150,000 years ago. We have absolutely no idea how they came to be on Kobol. Why are you so eager to jump to conclusions about totally separate evolution processes of practically identical races, especially with the huge uncertainty factor of the "God" entity taking an active part in everyone's life? I would be extremely careful - if the "God" entity is so powerful and capable of surviving over 150,000 years, it could have manipulated life on Kobol based on life on Earth. No need to ignore the scientific facts of evolution in that case. Therefore, I propose to stick to the facts, and not espouse anyone's theory of how the two groups evolved, either yours or mine. The Colonials arrived on Earth 150,000 years ago and they can mate with the local population. That's it.

2) ...means that fundamentally none of the so-called "human" characters of the series were actually human in the sense of what we consider human today. Instead, they were an outwardly indistinguishable from Homo sapiens extraterrestrial species with compatible DNA to Homo sapiens as a result of a parallel evolution.

::Again, no evidence for parallel evolution, which would be extremely unlikely. The facts are: Colonials came from Kobol as far as they know, although they don't know much about their early history.

3) The reimagined Battlestar Galactica was actually the saga of an alien race.

::No proof. In order to prove that it is an alien race, you have to prove that they evolved completely separately, despite all the physical similarities and an extremely influential "God" entity observing the events over hundreds of thousands of years and taking an active part in them.

It is extremely important to stick to verifiable facts on such shaky ground, with so much about the "God" entity remaining unknown. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

*[[Jane Espenson]] (one of BSG's writers and executive producers) has confirmed in an interview that Kobol was indeed the "original origin point for humanity" (i.e. Colonials) [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html]. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 21:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

:I think this is likely the case, but unfortunately her wording is "I've always taken it to be Kobol." -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

:Jane, Ron, any writer or producer. If you see this, could you please clear things up for us? --- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 21:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
-----
As noted, she assumed it to be Kobol. If you quote her exactly, I don't mind, but that does not mean that Ron Moore shares the opinion absolutely, without possibility of change, or that any other writers do. Remember how fluid and unpredictable BSG writing tends to be? She also indicated in another interview that the Angels may be aliens, which is something that Ron Moore wasn't specific about; they really prefer to leave a lot of this to our interpretation. Again, quoting her on that is fine, but it should not be stated as undisputable fact. If you include the source, the reader will know that the statement does not have the same value as an onscreen demonstration, and that there are alternative explanations as well. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 21:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

-----

Wouldn't the Colonials fall within the category of Missing Link between modern humanity and the "Colonial-compatible human life" they found on Earth (2). meaning that, since modern man is the child of the mating of Colonials and those humans, he shares more in commun with them than he does with the humans they found here?

In other words, modern man, as the child of the Colonials, is the result of mating between aliens and human ancestors who shared communalities wth those aliens, thus making the Colonials humans in the modern sense since the modern sense of what means to be human is the result of that mixture of races.--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 12:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

:Which is closer to modern man depends on the ratio of Colonial to Earther in the mix. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:28, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

:: Modern Man = The mating of a Colonial/Cylon hybrid (Hera) with either a human from the planet (which might be unlikely given their state of evolution), a Colonial (i.e. Boxey), or a Cylon (which would have to be Leoben since he was the only male Cylon that joined the Civil War on the Sixes' side, right? Simon and Doval stayed with Cavil). How likely is it that Hera would have mated with a native during her lifetime? Would the Colonials and Cylons have integrated themselves that early into the populace, or waited until they achieved a higher degree of evolution (i.e. invent the wheel)? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

== Daybreak Three-Parter ==

In Latinamerica, Daybreak is airing as a three-parter. Today, part II just finished airing here and it had the following differences from the two-hour version detailed in this article (in all likelihood this is the syndicated version. I don't know if that has already aired in the US).

The following two summaries from the article are the two scenes that have been omitted from the second chapter of the three-parter version of Daybreak:

*Elsewhere, Laura Roslin greets her date, Sean Allison, at her home. She eventually recognizes him as a former student from years ago. Despite the age difference, Roslin decides to let him stay the night.

*A flashback scene shows what Boomer meant: a time back in her days on 'Galactica, as Adama and Tigh redress her but give her another chance to be a better pilot.

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-05-08T18:52:12Z

ManofTheAtom: /* The Colonials were NOT "human" (in the modern sense) */

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-05-08T18:40:23Z

ManofTheAtom: /* The Colonials were NOT "human" (in the modern sense) */

== Move ==
Why move this? The way I understand this, this is still episode 20, but it will be lengthened to actually be 3 episodes long. So in a away there are 21/22 episodes even, and not 19. However, [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/06/battlestars-fin.html This] says that the season will be 11 hours and not 12, but that doesn't mean that we need to get rid of episode 19 already. Especially given that the finale will probably air in at least 2 parts. So it makes some sense to have separate episodes guides for two airings. By production numbers this would be one episode, but split apart by airdate numbers. Maybe we should wait for some further clarification. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:It could be split up into 3 parts in reruns. I think it would be easier to start with a single article and then split as necessary after it airs. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::If Sci Fi is gonna pull a Miniseries and air this thing in two parts, we should pull a Miniseries too and have [[Miniseries, Night 1|separate]] [[Miniseries, Night 2|articles]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Which we can do after we know where the break point is. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 09:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to split the article at this time. We won't know how things will be aired until they're actually aired. All we know for now is that the finale's been extended... that's it. Creating two or three sections based on something we have absolutely very little information on is just... ill-advised. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 13:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:The proposal wasn't a split, but a merge with 419 I think (the article exists. It just isn't linked to, because it's an empty skeleton). But the result is the same. The way I understand it, 419+420 will be the finale then, with both episodes running 3 hours together (incl. ads I guess). We'll see. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::Ah, ok. Sounded like it would be a split, with at least one additional article, seeing as each article would cover an hour. Anyway, we don't have enough information to be certain; it's still really all up in the air, and they have now until doomsday to figure out how to release the thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

==Title==
''Daybreak, Part 2'' (and ''Part 3'') [http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/09/battlestar-galactica-cruise-book.html according to producer Mark Verheiden].--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 19:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE change the title of the page to Part II & Part III -- It is being sold on iTunes, Amazon, etc. and two completely different episodes and this actually screwed me up immensely because I ended up reading spoilers for Part 3 before I started watching it. Yes, this is how it aired, but it is not how it is being archived. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 13:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Analysis==
"Ronald D. Moore appears in a cameo as the man holding a National Geographic magazine in New York City. "

I think there is much more to it. Ronald D. Moore is appearing as himself reading that article because his knowledge of "Eve" influenced the series. In other words, the series is a result of the events depicted in the series. With that scene, Battlestar Galactica becomes part of Battlestar Galactica.

:This is impossibel since as of 2009 mitochondrial Eve's remains haven't been found yet, this scene is set in the future, after the series ended.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::Checkout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve. First articals apearred in 2003 ;)

It's not the same thing: we've known about mitochondrial Eve since before the series started, but her actual remains have not been found, there were never any bones of her found up to this day.
It's possible that Moore knowing about Eve's existence may have influenced the show, but he has never read an NGC article about the finding of her remains, simply because those remains haven't been found and thus never made their way into an NGC article.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Notes==

I recognised it immediately when watching the episode (and it's already on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_(Battlestar_Galactica)#Outside_references ), the "Kodiak" spacecraft from Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun can be seen among the fleet during this episode.

==(Un)answered questions)==

The following Ron Moore interview clears up some misunderstandings about the show: http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html

1) Kara Thrace's father was NOT the lost cylon Daniel.

2) The Missiles Racetrack's Raptor (accidentally) fires at the cylon colony were nukes that severely damaged the colony and made it fall from its stable orbit into the singularity (black hole) so the colony has been utterly destroyed.

3) The Earth which is discovered in this episode is not the same planet that was discovered in "Revelations." The Earth of "Revelations" was not the planet we now live on, but our Earth was named after it.

There are still a bunch of unanswered questions:

1) What is the nature of the divine power (although this was probably intentionally left unanswered.)

2) Who were the Lords of Kobol and what happened to that world?

3) How did the colonials get from Kobol to the colonies and if they were technologically advanced, how did they loose all knowledge of Kobol, save for some religious texts?

4) What happened to those who nuked the old Earth 2000 years ago, some of these victors would have survived, but they re never seen or heard from.

5) Why didn't Cavil and his cylons try to re-invent resurrection themselves as the technology wasn't that far ahead of them (it was re-invented by the final five on old-Earth in a civilization that hadn't even invented jump drives.)

6) How could the resurrection hub control all resurrection ships while there was never any mention of FTL-communication on the show and why wasn't the resurrection hub integrated into the colony rather than floating around in deep space, vulnerable and guarded by only 2 baseships.

7) Was the colony really the place where all cylons lived, was their civilization so small (and clearly no match for the colonial military before the holocaust) and are there no baseships left out there that still have cylons aboard who want to exact their revenge on humanity? They may die out like the article suggests, but there's nothing stopping them from taking Earth with them (provided they find it within their lifetime.)

8) What happened to the other rebel cylons? Was it just the 3 baseships that rebelled, and if not, where are the other 2's, 6's and 8's?

9) How did Lee get everyone to agree to give up technology (even medical)?

10) Had it not made more sense to build new cities on Earth and rebuild the advanced colonial civilization, when everyone understood how important equal treatment of cylons and humans is, instead of letting Earth's humans build their own civilization thousands of years later, humans who are likely to make the same old mistakes with artificial intelligence and repeat the cycle?

11) How come no intelligent alien life has ever been encountered by colonials or cylons in their histories, but when it finally happens these aliens are identical to humans, who somehow evolved separately from the Kobol humans? Somehow this amazing coincidence being an "act of God" seems like a rather unsatisfactory answer.

12) Since all the fleet's decisions after the Ellen's reapperarance have been about breaking the cycle, is Lee afraid that by having superior technology on earth the cylons and colonials would "enslave" the native population, creating yet another cycle?

-- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

:: He doesn't actually say that about Kara. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

You're right, I've edited my post. -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

: I'd still like to know the origin of Kara's pristine Viper from her resurrection or how she died going into a gas giant with her corpse resting on a planet light-years away. And what the deal is with the Centurions from "Razor" and the Hybrid they deified. And while I understand his prophesy, I'd like to know why the old Hybrid didn't want Kara to lead a new civilisation to Earth. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:36, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Her being sent back with a new viper was supposed to be an act of the divine power. I think the Razor centurions were explained as regular mutineers, they saw the first hybrid as some kind of prophet because of the way it talked and wanted to protect it from being scrapped. Seeing as how Kara was largely responsible for the end of Cylon civilization, except the few centurions that are still left, this explains why '''CYLON''" hybrids call her the harbinger of death (it was never stated she was the harbinger of death for humanity.) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Gully, as for question four the Thirteenth Tribe's Earth got nuked by their Centurions. From the surface, not from space. M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). The Final Five secretly built a ship and rebuilt resurrection (Which the 13th Tribe hadn't needed since first achieving reproduction on Kobol). That was how they escaped. -- [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 04:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: Alright, but being centurions the radiation wouldn't really hurt them, they could easily have created their own civilization after the dust settled (a bit like the machines in the "Terminator".) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Machines can be disabled by radiation, and the impacts themselves would have destroyed the Centurions. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

From the article: “Since the notes of All Along the Watchtower lead to Earth, do they still serve a purpose on Earth?” answer: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen_(film) yes]. -- [[User:LaloMartins|LaloMartins]] 12:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Regarding point six, in [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]], it was stated that, when the [[Resurrection Hub]] jumps, it transmits its' new location to the [[Hybrid]]s, so FTL communication technology definitely exists. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Adding a question on, the CGI Raptor launched ''16'' missiles, why were only 8 shown after the launch scene?--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 06:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

==== What Precisely Killed [[Margaret Edmondson|Racetrack]] and [[Hamish McCall|Skulls]]? ====

The Marines in the rear of the cabin were killed by explosive decompression and vacuum exposure, but Racetrack and Skulls were in sealed pressure suits. I don't recall seeing suit damage in that quick shot of Margaret's hand falling on the missile-launch button. Did the one penetrating rock cause invisible crushing injuries to both of them? It didn't look big enough to hit both of them square on. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 08:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:Skulls whas hit in his face or chest by the rock and there was a small hole in Racetrack's helmet when her hand fell on the button.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

==== [[Delphi]] ====

In the episode "[[Downloaded]]" the cylons were rebuilding the Caprican city of [[Delphi]] and living in it. Was this effort completely abandoned when the Cylons decided to occupy [[New Caprica]]? Or has the effort to recover [[Caprica_(RDM)|Caprica]] continued all this time and is it still occupied? Are there still a substantial number of human-Cylons living on Caprica? Will it become like first Earth before their holocaust, an entirely Cylon-populated society? Are any humans stragglers left alive on either Caprica or New Caprica? -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 09:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

: They likely did leave the colonies after [[Downloaded]], there may still be some baseships out there, but the cylons on them are aging and cannot procreate. Even if they found Earth within their lifetimes a handful of basestars probably don't have enough nukes to obliterate the Earth's surface, that is assuming they'll actually know humans are living on Earth: it's pretty hard to find a stone age culture or neolithic society from space, even when you're actively looking for them (sure the colonials found one tribe, but in order to kill all humans with a limited number of nukes you'd have to know the positions of every tribe on Earth.)
There may be human survivors left on the colonies but it's unlikely: sure, they may have survived the nukes and the radiation, but the cylons actively hunted them down, probably to populations too small to repopulate the planets.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

:: The Cylons left the Twelve Colonies altogether in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]], remember? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:37, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

==== Lost Viper ====

During the "back-breaking" of ''Galactica'' a Viper fell out of the bow of the port flightpod and floated downward relative to the ship, which was horizontal relative to the moon below. Has RDM mentioned what happened to it? Was it recovered to the ship, was it left adrift in Solar orbit (where it theoretically could still be), or did it crash onto the Moon? (Which would leave wreckage which could be discovered in the present or future.) -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 21:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

==== Birch trees ====

(A notation rather than a question.) Birch trees don't grow and never grew in Africa, yet we clearly see them in /B/r/i/t/i/s/h/ /C/o/l/u/m/b/i/a/ Africa at the Colonial landing site. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 21:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

== The Angels Make Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. ''

----
From Act 10 section of article: "(This is in the year 1987 AD.)" How can it be 1987 when the flat panel TV clearly showed MSNBC logo at the bottom? MSNBC was created in 1996.--[[User:Steven512|Steven512]] 14:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Yes, the robots you see in this scene were also developed after 1987 and as far as I know the remains of mitochondrial Eve have never been found.
In 1987 it was discovered that there had been a mitochondrial Eve, this was based on DNA-research among modern humans, her actual remains have not been found to this day so the scene takes place in the near future (it could even be tomorrow), not in 1987!
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

== Hera's Mate = Boxey? ==

From the notes section

''On the second Earth Hera's mate that produced children was most likely human. Saul Tigh and the Leobens would be too old for her. While it was fairly common in ancient times for the men to be far older than their brides (particularly with royalty), for example with the female being as young as 12 and and the male being say 60 to take an extreme, Colonial mores, which are much like our own in real life, would forbid the Leobens from sexual congress with Hera when she reach the accepted reproductive age. On the other hand there were many human children about her age and slightly older in the Fleet. She could had also had children with a human child unborn at the time of the landing on Second Earth perhaps within five years to ten years of her age. It is possible that other hybrid children could had been born after the landing given that the Twos, Sixes, and Eights joined the humans. And it is possible that pure Cylon children could had been born to the age compatible Sixes, Eights, and Leobens but as noted in the series it is difficult if not impossible for a pure Cylon child to come to term making any pool of pure Cylon children that were successfully born very small. Cylon-Human mating with a human male with a Six or a Sharon is very possible with the example of Hera herself an significantly more likely than with a Cylon-Cylon birth, but it is harder than with human-human pairings making any pool of those pairing while much more likely and larger than Cylon-Cylon offspring, still quite small number compared to pure human offspring. Therefore Hera's offspring is most likely with a human. A more remote possibility is with another Cylon-human hybrid. Her producing children with a pure Cylon offspring is the least likely since pure Cylons are the least likely to exist.''

Boxey could be Hera's mate. It would make sense.

Boxey as Y-chromosomal Adam? Or would that be "Adama"? heh--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: The chromosomal Adam live tens of thousands of years after the Mitochondrial Eve.

: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 17:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
::Walabio is right and why would it be more likely for Hera to end up with Boxey instead of with one of the other hundreds of children from the fleet?
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 18:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::The ''Y-chromosomal Adam'' reference was to make the pun based on Boxey being Apollo's adopted son in TOS :). As for why it would make sense, it be for no other reason that it would give the RDM version of the character some (belated) importance, which he lacked through the run of the show. Why have her end up with some random kid from the fleet than have her end up with a character who had some level of development? Plus, look at it this way, the original intent according to some references on this site say that the plan was to make Boxey, Tyrol, and Sharon (Boomer) a makeshift family. Having him end up with Hera accomplishes part of that intent as he'd be related to one version of Sharon (Athena)--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It is a moot point. He had NO relevant to BSG any more since they dropped him as a character. If they didn't drop him as a character I think the perfect end would had been making him that guy that was killed in the mutiny, you know the one that acted as a runner between CIC and some damaged area of the ship to get a damage report for Adama at the near the beginning of the mutiny? He was then later killed by Gaeta's trigger happy Marines when he pushed Adama to the deck, saving his life. That would had been a good way for Boxey to go. He would had been the right age (17) and would had gave his character an ultimate purpose, to save Adama when the time came.
::: Of course it is possible for Boxey and Hera to had gotten together. He would had been 14 years old when Hera was born but with Hera say 20 years old Boxey would had been 34, a reasonable age difference allowable in both our and Colonial Society. And further it would had been another of the shows many ironies and "what goes around, comes around" themes: Boxey, who was taken in by Boomer, an Eight as a quasi foster son, later marries the daughter of Athena, an Eight, who was stolen and then given back by Boomer who was then killed Athena. Imagine all the physiological turmoil that could case Boxey. This show thrived on that sort of thing. LOL [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

== Number Three ==

Couldn't they have sent a Raptor or an FTL-capable ship to find Number Three and bring her to the New Earth with them? It would have been the humane thing to do. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: She was left on a dead-to-humans world, where the only plant life we saw were grasses or other non-edibles, with a background radiation count above the safe level beyond short exposure: even the water was contaminated. She probably died within a few weeks of being left behind. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 12:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Good point. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It was established by Athena in [[The Passage]] that Cylons are far more resistant to radiation than humans are. In fact they bombed [[Caprica]] and the other Colonies with high yield nuclear weapons '''outside''' the cities so they could kill the humans but keep the buildings and infrastructure intact. We saw them settling in [[Caprica City]] in "[[Downloaded]]" even reopening the coffee shops, so radiation is of no problem to them (except for the rare special kind of Nebula radiation at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]) So it is possible for [[D'Anna Biers]] to survive the radiation of Earth One and even drink the rain water. Food on the other hand would be a problem and I saw no evidence of surviving animal life, and this all assumes that she wanted to survive, which I don't think she would due to staying on the radioactive rock in the first place. Still, it would had been a nice thing to try to find her. Maybe a miracle would had happened LOL. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 00:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

== "No Further Significant Revelations..."==

I think this statement in the advisory tag is premature. There's still "The Plan", as well as, in theory, the Caprica series, both of which might provide further revelations with regards to Daybreak and the series itself. Certainly The Plan, anyway. Not to mention the presumed deleted scenes that will be on the DVD and there's a rumor Daybreak will be extended for the DVD as well. There's still a chance for some issues to be resolved. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 13:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:That's interesting. I don't expect The Plan to reveal much of anything about what Kara became or who the Virtual beings were, but Caprica might explore it given the establishment that they appear at times when the cycle of time (machine on human violence) begins. Caprica might provide the answers to the lingering questions if for nothing more than to give fans of BSG a reason to watch. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::Let's hope so, though I don't expect they will reveal much more about the divine powers or the angels, ever. It would take away the mystery and the sense that there is something bigger than us (humans and cylons), now we are left wondering if the divine power is a God, or just a very advanced race (maybe the perpetrators (or their descendents) of the first holocaust during the first cycle are feeling guilty) and I think that's how Ron Moore intended it to be. However, ''Caprica'' may reveal more about colonial history: what happened to Kobol, how did humans move from Kobol to the colonies, why was that history almost completely forgotten (was there a colonial dark age) and who or what were the Lords of Kobol? --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:::I'm sure that many people would agree, or at least theorize, that the virtual beings are Moore's version of the beings of light from the Ship of Lights, especially considering what happened to Kara, which I've seen (here or elsewhere, I forget) compared to what happened to the Starbuck from the original series on the last episode of Galactica 80. I think that the reason why Moore must have decided to leave things vague is that he didn't want to "cheapen it" by introducing something like the Ship of Lights into his show, which was more realistic than the original version. Now that I think about it, when Baltar tells Six that "it" doesn't like to be called God, it could be that "it" is the Ship of Lights or whatever version of it that exist in this version of the story. It would be cool if there was more exploration of this in Caprica, as well as further exploration of the "jealous God" from Kobol (which I'm sure we'll hear more of due to this headmistress in Caprica who doesn't believe in the Lords of Kobol) and all the other lingering questions from the show. In fact, given that religion is an important aspect of Caprica as it was in BSG (RDM) I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more of this down the line. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 17:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::::Hi, guys. Here's my two cents, since I'm the Senior Chief that added the special notice. "No further significant revelations" means "the story is generally over." BSG isn't Star Trek, guys. RDM has stated that there are some elements of the story that he wouldn't resolve, but that he would resolve the important stuff. Is that etched in stone somewhere? No. I'm sure ''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'' may open a few new questions. But until that series debuts, what we have is what we have. Battlestar Wiki allows some speculation because we're talking about a work of fiction. But to speculate further when no further answers are likely and people are making what's otherwise original research--that's [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]], and it's not allowed on Battlestar Wiki. For the purposes of this episode summary because its so long (and must be), we have to keep focus and not overload the article. Episode summaries are the only articles where questions can be asked (provided they don't go out of control) but many questions will not be answered. As soon as the noise dies down we can move some pressing questions to [[BW:OC|our special Q&A page answered by BSG co-producer Bradley Thompson]]. In my opinion, the nature of the Virtual Beings and Kara have been answered as far as RDM wanted to do. They are beings of divine source--and folks, religion is one thing that RDM loved to keep close to his chest to add to the BSG mystique. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::::: I'm not saying that The Plan is going to answer all the unanswered questions, etc. However The Plan has been acknowledged as the coda for this series, and just as important to it as Razor was. However the special notice as I saw it wasn't just in reference to Daybreak, but to the Wiki in general, and that's where I think it's premature. In terms of Daybreak itself, I agree that any additional revelations in The Plan will likely be minor and there are unlikely to be any in Caprica at all relating to that particular episode. But I think questions that come to mind are still worth asking with regards to characters that could be addressed in The Plan. And unless someone has already seen The Plan, or RDM has explicitly stated otherwise, we can't really predict which characters may or may not be addressed. Something that might be interesting once The Plan airs and is analysed is to go through the episode articles and compile the outstanding questions that the series has left unanswered. I think there will be fewer than some think, with the remainder being just enough to put this series into the same league as "The Prisoner" in that people will still be arguing over "what does it mean" 40 years from now. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

== How did the fleet reach Earth 2 / New Earth? ==
As far as I understood it before Galactica departed for the Colony they agreed to a rendezvous location with the fleet. But when jumping away from the colony Starbuck punched in the numbers of the song and Galactica jumped for its last time. But when it reappeared over New Earth the fleet also jumped right in. How did they get the coordinates (a raptor jumping to the rendezvous location?)? But how did they get them so fast? [[User:DJ Doena|DJ Doena]] 14:02, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:Galactica still had a few raptors left (we saw 7 of them landed on Earth) and 12 hours passed between the shot of Galactica jumping near the Moon and the rest of the fleet showing up, nothing fishy going on there. --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::The key here was time pressure. Someone had the coordinates, but with the chaos of getting sucked into a black hole, no one could give them to Kara in time before ''Galactica's'' final jump. When all was stable, someone remembered/recalled the Fleet's coordinates, sent a Raptor, and all was good. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:You missed the letters onscreen spelling "Twelve Hours Later". -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Consolidation change ==

Hey everyone! I just wanted to take a moment to explain the format and consolidation change for Act I. This change is a test for updating the event summary because:

*Each detail does not require a bullet.
*Having bullets for every event make it look redundant.

*However, having bullets between major events makes the summary flow a little better. This was the approach I used when summarizing [[Daybreak, Part I]]. It gives each scene a sense of distinction, like this example.

Are there any other opinions regarding this proposed change? If it's OK, I can start work on the other acts. -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 20:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:Given the massive data, it's okay to condense a few points. But keep it to maybe three or four lines condensed. Any larger and it's hard to follow. Try to keep it looking like the other episode guides as much as possible for consistency. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for the working guideline. As of this writing, Act I & II are done, and starting on the rest. Hope you guys like it! -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 07:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

==The robot at the end==
I corrected an addition in Story Notes that suggested the female robot at the very end is the one that was unveiled only a few days before the broadcast. That would have been very cool, but it's actually the "Actroid" which was unveiled 4 years ago. Interestingly I found Actroid, a 4-year-old technology, to be more lifelike than the one unveiled last week... [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

==The model on the cover of "Sports Limited"==
Here's a challenge for those who watched this on HD sets... I've heard it suggested that the model on the cover of "Sports Limited" (the SI-like magazine seen on the newsstand) might actually be Tricia Helfer. I can't tell at all on the computer-screen I'm using, but it might be a neat bit of trivia (not to mention it would open a line of speculation as to whether the Sixes have survived to the present day) if it's true. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 16:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

== Questions Section ==

I can never be more blunt than I tried to be before on these last two guides. The questions sections follow strict rules [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions/Episode_Guides#Questions_Section]] is the policy on this section. I am going to again clear out the questions section with the bad stuff. Users who do not follow our polices on the [[BW:SAC]] will be warned and if after being warned by doing it again, will be banned. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 02:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== Lie-dector test "question" ==

In the Questions section, somebody asked:'' "During the lie detector test in the flashback scene of William Adama's attempt to secure a civilian job, why did the interrogator ask him if he was a Cylon?"''

This was a control question in order to get a baseline from which to compare the real questions for deception. Such as if a polygraph-operator were to ask "Are you a dinosaur?" This fact was made immediately clear in the dialogue. This was in no way left unclear. It's not a mystery. It's not even a debate.

I've deleted it.

== What year is it "question" ==

Another rediculous addition to the Questions section: ''"What year is it on Earth during the final scene?"''

That too was answered by the title: "150,000 Years Later". Go back 150,000 years from 2009 AD, and you have the answer: 148000 B.C.E.

I've deleted the question.

== Regarding my edits to Questions Section ==

I've removed these three questions:

* Why so many zeros in the Model 0005?
* Does either Battlestar Galactica TV series exist in some form on the new Earth?
* Who or what is God exactly?

The first two are completely and utterly ridiculous and do not have any merit as questions. They will never be answered, and it's simply beneath the scope of what questions should be in that section in the first place.

The third question has been pretty much answered in the series by Baltar, who is essentially the mouthpiece of the writers coda on that subject. In the universe of BSG, God is a force of nature who doesn't like the name "God." -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== Galactica breaking her back ==

Just noticed, Galactica made her final jump with her flight pods out, maybe thats what caused the damage? I mean the extra forces exerted on the ship because of the higher amount of ship to effect. It makes sense that Galactica jumping without her pods retracted would place extraordinary amount of stress on the ship. Every other time even when dropping through the atmosphere at New Caprica the Galactica always had her pods retracted fro a jump.
--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 08:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

:That could very well have been a contributing factor, but there are many other factors in play, too, namely
:*her age,
:*compromises made during construction,
:*accumulated stresses and fractures from past battle damage and the sheer number of jumps,
:*lack of proper dock repair and maintenance,
:*her last sustained pounding at close-range, and ramming into the Colony.
:And consider that Adama and Tigh were told that she only had a few more jumps in her before she suffers structural damage. The old girl was already falling apart.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 13:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I remember that one of the specialists told Adama that Galactica had 5 jumps left max, but nevermind it I just took notice of it and wanted to see what everyone else thought of it. EDIT: Also noticed that Glactica's flight pods went up and down of their own accord after the jump, maybe thats why they retract the pods? I think the Mercuries could non-retract jump because of the way their support struts are placed. By the looks of it the movement of the pods was absolutely massive and that kind of stress would most certainly break Galactica's back no matter what sort of structural damage she had before. --[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 07:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

:A suspension bridge's cables snap, and the road buckles. Overwhelming stresses on the road deform it, and the cables snap. A similar arguement can be made for the flight pods. There could have been torque forces on the pods, but the loss of lateral supports could have affected the ship's rigidity that caused the body to flex, which could also cause the flight pods to sway, too.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 07:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

==Cylon Longevity==

According to [[No Exit]], Ellen and the others created Cavil in the image of her father, so it stands to reason that, 40 years prior to the fall of the colonies, he was already a man in his 70'(s?) and in fact had not aged in those four decades. It can be assumed that the same holds true for the other six humanoid cylons, all of which were considerably younger than him.

The point here is, if humaoid Cylons don't age then the surviving Cylons who didn't make it to Earth wouldn't have died out as it has been speculated, be it from old age or lack of mates to reproduce with. Their longevity could surpass human longevity and they could be alive at the end of the series.

Furthermore there's the issue of boxing. They could have boxed themselves as a form of suspended animation to ensure their survival and programmed Guardian Centurions to watch over them.

All in all, there are many number of ways in which the humanoid Cylons that didn't make it to Earth could have survived. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit: Now that I think about it, what about the Cylons who did make it to Earth? If they don't age, how did they die out? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

: Perhaps aging was only a non-issue when they had resurrection tech. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::You mean, they did age but then transfered their conciousness to younger bodies? That's possible. What about the option to box their conciousness? They could still survive that way (sure, their bodies might die out without some form of suspended animation given that they are biological, but their conciousness could survive as 1s and 0s that could be downloaded into new bodies 150,000 years later). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Removed questions ==

I've removed the following questions:
* Who were/are the Lords of Kobol?
** Good question, but not one with any connection to this episode.
* What year is the present day?
** I'm not sure what this is asking. We are shown that the Colonial's present is 150 000 years before our own.
* Who is the dying leader? Laura Roslin? Galactica? Starbuck?
** The narrative gives us many explicit statements that it is Roslin, and she fits the role perfectly, making it unnecessary to try and jam someone else into the position. Doing so without clear indications from the show is speculation.
* What’s the deal with Kara Thrace?
** She was sent back by "God" as an angel to guide the people to the new Earth. Covered fairly conclusively, if not explicitly.
* What is the true nature of the Head People?
** They were angels, as was stated many times.
* Who or what is guiding events?
** Something akin to "God", though it doesn't like to be called that. I think this is covered sufficiently in the earlier question about why "God" is guiding events.
* Is Virtual Baltar really the archangel Gabriel? If not, is Virtual Leobon? (Assuming they're not actually the same being, that is.)
** Theory without basis in the show.
--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 23:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

== Parallel evolution ==

It is implausible scientifically that Earth humans and Colonials just happened to evolve in parallel without outside influence (possibly from the head beings). Therefore, I wouldn't state it as fact that they're alien to each other -- there is no support for that in the show. The facts are that they can mate and that the characters are surprised about humans existing on Earth, but I wouldn't go as far as drawing conclusions about the origins of Colonials and humans. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

:It could be that in the Galactica universe humans are the standard of life across the universe, which is why they never encountered other life forms during their travels. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:: I covered this on this very talkpage [[#The_Angels_Make_Life_In_This_Galaxy_Boringly_Homogenous. | here. ]] Basically, the [[Angel]]s guide evolution subtly by such means as dropping huge asteroids on the dinosaurs so that they can create dodos in their place. Because of these [[Angel]]s life is the same everywhere right down to identical pianofortes playing [[the Music | All Along The Watchtower. ]]

:: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 18:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::Most importantly, don't forget the suits and ties, which were reinvented by accident or through the collective unconscious. Back to the topic, though - all I'm saying is that the fact that Earth humans are primitive in that era does not necessarily imply that the Colonials evolved totally independently on Kobol and are therefore aliens, as the note in the article stated. No need to make such bold conclusions for the sake of "You know what that actualy means?"-type trivia; we know the visible facts, and they should be reported as such, and we know there is a LOT that we don't know about the head beings, which opens up any number of possibilities for future storytelling. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 20:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::"And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees" The Algae planet could have been terraformed by the 13th Tribe before they reached Earth (maybe they intended to settle there but then learned of the supernova and changed their minds, but not after they had terraformed the planet and built the temple). New Caprica had trees? Wasn't it mostly a desert? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::: I shall address the remarks of Graf Iblis, None Of Your Business, and Man of the Atom together:

::::: What Graf Iblis says could make sense:

::::: Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense.

::::: About the trees on New Caprica, trees on our Earth come in 3 shapes:

* - Cone-Shaped

* - Mushroom-Shaped

* - Palm-Tree-Shaped

::::: For all 3 shapes one can find both angiosperms and gymnosperms. For the Palm-Tree-shaped we even have some ferns too. Convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs probably can explain the trees looking alike.

::::: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 23:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::: If the same tree species, and foxes, and chickens, and so on, can evolve on different planets without terraforming, humans aren't a stretch. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: But the trees need not be the same species on New Caprica.. Indeed, they may have only a superficial resemblance to each other. Despite looking externally similar ichthyosaurs and sharks are very different. For foxes, pidgins, humans, et cetera to be on both Cobol and our Earth, the [[Angel]]s would have to stear biological evolution on both planets or scooped up these organisms on our Earth where we know for a fact they evolved and taken them to Cobol.

::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: And the Twelve Colonies, if humans didn't bring them from Kobol (and I doubt they did). -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 03:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: It was mine understanding that the Colonists brought life from Cobol and terraformed the 12 planets orbiting a few stars in an open star-cluster.

::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::: No one ever said this. Was it in the role-playing game? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::: No. It just 1 of only 2 ideas making sense:

# - The Colonists terraformed several planets orbiting several stars in an open starcluster.
# - The Colonists rearranged 12 planets and moons of a star so that they all orbit stably within the habitable zone of a star and then terraformed them.

::::::::::: Nowhere in the show do we see any hint of the capability to move planets.

::::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::::: Or there were twleve habitable planets. It's not that far-fetched in light of Earth and Kobol both having humans. If you think that both did naturally. Which I do, since the Colonials had the concept of evolution. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 02:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::::: > “Or there were twleve habitable planets.”

::::::::::::: You want something that cannot be. One cannot have twelve planets forming the habitable zone of a star. Even if one could, not all twelve would be habitable.

::::::::::::: > “It’s not that far-fetched in light of Earth and Kobol both having humans. If you think that both did naturally. Which I do, since the Colonials had the concept of evolution”

::::::::::::: > They could not both have evolved naturally. Biological evolution has 2 components:

# - Natural Selection
# - Random Mutation

::::::::::::: Natural selection is not random, but random selection is random. The solution-space is too large and the process to stochastic. One would not have humans and chickens arising on other worlds. ¿Does Australia have bison or kangaroos? Even with extreme convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs, they do not become the same species like Colonials and the humans on our Earth.

::::::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: "Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense." It goes without saying that BSG left people wanting more. One thing I would like to know more about is who the Lords of Kobol were, what their relationship with the Angels/Messengers was, and who the jealous Lord that Elosha mentioned in "Kobol's Last Gleaming" was meant to be. Was he Iblis? Was he God? Was Iblis meant to be God? According to some text on the first season finale's page, RDM wanted Dirk Benedick to play Iblis and introduce himself to Baltar as God. Could this still happen? Did RDM change his mind and made God a "force of nature", or did Iblis/Jealous Lord EVOLVE into a force of nature? Is it that he (it?) doesn't like to be called God because he prefers to be called "Iblis"? Wasn't Iblis refered to as Lord in the original show? (Lord Iblis sounds right to me). Iblis as the one true God who orchestrated everything that happened to the Colonials and the Cylons... wouldn't that be a twist (just like Starbuck being a woman was a twist) on the original? Iblis goes from being Satan to being God... I HOPE that this is explored more deeply in Caprica... How could it NOT be given that it features a religious school, right? What else will those characters talk about if not Colonial theology and the Lords of Kobol (as well as the jealous Lord of Kobol). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: I doubt that Ronald D. Moore will ever directly answer these questions. He will probably just frak up our minds even more.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: There's a chance that RDM intended to answer these and other questions on BSG, but when the opportunity came to develop a spin off (Caprica) he could have made the choice to abandon these plots and focus on the survival aspect of the story instead and keep them to be developed later in Caprica. With characters like the teacher/nun who believes in the "one true God", locations like the Athena school (is is Athena? I forget), and the cult of religious believers that Zoe Graystone's boyfriend belongs to, there's considerable evidence to believe that these topics will be explored in the series, either as fully-developed plots or just casual conversation (i.e. dialogue spoken in a classroom, a conversation between this teacher/nun and maybe a younger Elosha in the school's quad)... It would stand to reason that given that Caprica seems to be more deeply rooted in the theology of BSG that it would explore these ideas, which might be why they stopped being an issue in BSG, which was more about finding Earth/a new world than in about discovering the "truth of God". --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 01:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: I always figured that it is just another crazy cult. On our Earth, people blow themselves up in the name of the one true god all of the time. The one true cylon-god is nothing more than the one true god of the cult of the of true god.

::::::::: Both Joseph Adams and William Adama are atheists. Lee Adama seems indifferent to religion. I wonder whether this is nature or nurture.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: It could be a result of their loosing their family in the explosion. It could be that Joseph decides that religion only results in hatred (it is religion that pushes Zoe's boyfriend into detonating the bomb). The question is in finding the link between the Cylon's worship of the one true God and the cult that Zoe's boyfriend belogns to. Why would Daniel Graystone instill religion into the Cylons? If not him, then who, how, and why? Is it Zoe's friend? Is it the teacher/nun? Is it Virtual Zoe? Why would any Graystone believe in the one true God whose followers caused the death of Zoe, Adama's sister and mother, and all those other people?... Speaking of Virtual Zoe, will she be connected to Virtual Six and Virtual Baltar? Is the one true God really a divine being (i.e. a Lord of Kobol), a "force of nature", or a man inside a space ship (a ship of lights, if you will) who uses Graystone's Cylon and Virtual echnologies to influence Colonial life (well, that might not track given that the messengers visited the 13th Colony 2000 years prior to the creation of the Cononial Cylons, but wouldn't it be cool if it did, heh?). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 13:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: The messengers saw Kobol and Earth as well as Caprica, so they can't be the product of Graystone technology. Right now, the best answer for the Centurions' monotheism is that they're Zoe's descendants. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

== The Colonials were NOT "human" (in the modern sense) ==
I've restored the bit about the characters not being "human" in the modern sense of the term and that the series was fundamentally the saga of an alien race. If you actually listened to Dr. Cottle, he said the DNA of the early Earth humans is "compatible" to Colonial DNA. He didn't say it was exactly the same. Going by that, it's completely fair to conclude that the Colonials and early humans were NOT genetically identical. They simply had analogous DNA structures. We already know they had at least one physiological difference: the Colonials didn't have a universal blood donor type.

As for "our" connection with them; within the ''Battlestar Galactica'' universe, modern humans are NOT Colonials. We are a hybridization of Colonials AND the native humans. So the characters of ''Battlestar Galactica'' were indeed "aliens" and not "human" in the sense of what we consider human today. By the nature of them not evolving on Earth, they were most certainly extraterrestrial. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]]

: Extraterrestrial and alien have different meanings. The former simply means "not from Earth", the latter is a relative term for something the speaker has no relationship to. It is obvious that Colonials are extraterrestrial. They are not alien to us, just as the Cylons and the Earth natives are not.

: There's no evidence that they didn't have a universal blood donor type. The copy of Baltar's Lab Notes sold at the big auction shows that Hera's blood was unusual because it had no antigens whatsoever, not just ABO. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:21, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
---------------
Here are my problems with the paragraph:

1) The revelation that the Colonial "humans" evolved separately from Earth humans...

::Where is this demonstrated in the series? All we know for sure is that practically identical Colonials arrived on our Earth more than 150,000 years ago. We have absolutely no idea how they came to be on Kobol. Why are you so eager to jump to conclusions about totally separate evolution processes of practically identical races, especially with the huge uncertainty factor of the "God" entity taking an active part in everyone's life? I would be extremely careful - if the "God" entity is so powerful and capable of surviving over 150,000 years, it could have manipulated life on Kobol based on life on Earth. No need to ignore the scientific facts of evolution in that case. Therefore, I propose to stick to the facts, and not espouse anyone's theory of how the two groups evolved, either yours or mine. The Colonials arrived on Earth 150,000 years ago and they can mate with the local population. That's it.

2) ...means that fundamentally none of the so-called "human" characters of the series were actually human in the sense of what we consider human today. Instead, they were an outwardly indistinguishable from Homo sapiens extraterrestrial species with compatible DNA to Homo sapiens as a result of a parallel evolution.

::Again, no evidence for parallel evolution, which would be extremely unlikely. The facts are: Colonials came from Kobol as far as they know, although they don't know much about their early history.

3) The reimagined Battlestar Galactica was actually the saga of an alien race.

::No proof. In order to prove that it is an alien race, you have to prove that they evolved completely separately, despite all the physical similarities and an extremely influential "God" entity observing the events over hundreds of thousands of years and taking an active part in them.

It is extremely important to stick to verifiable facts on such shaky ground, with so much about the "God" entity remaining unknown. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

*[[Jane Espenson]] (one of BSG's writers and executive producers) has confirmed in an interview that Kobol was indeed the "original origin point for humanity" (i.e. Colonials) [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html]. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 21:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

:I think this is likely the case, but unfortunately her wording is "I've always taken it to be Kobol." -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

:Jane, Ron, any writer or producer. If you see this, could you please clear things up for us? --- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 21:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
-----
As noted, she assumed it to be Kobol. If you quote her exactly, I don't mind, but that does not mean that Ron Moore shares the opinion absolutely, without possibility of change, or that any other writers do. Remember how fluid and unpredictable BSG writing tends to be? She also indicated in another interview that the Angels may be aliens, which is something that Ron Moore wasn't specific about; they really prefer to leave a lot of this to our interpretation. Again, quoting her on that is fine, but it should not be stated as undisputable fact. If you include the source, the reader will know that the statement does not have the same value as an onscreen demonstration, and that there are alternative explanations as well. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 21:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

-----

Wouldn't the Colonials fall within the category of Missing Link between modern humanity and the "Colonial-compatible human life" they found on Earth (2). meaning that, since modern man is the child of the mating of Colonials and those humans, he shares more in commun with them than he does with the humans they found here?

In other words, modern man, as the child of the Colonials, is the result of mating between aliens and human ancestors who shared communalities wth those aliens, thus making the Colonials humans in the modern sense since the modern sense of what means to be human is the result of that mixture of races.--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 12:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

:Which is closer to modern man depends on the ratio of Colonial to Earther in the mix. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:28, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

:: Modern Man = The mating of a Colonial/Cylon hybrid (Hera) with either a human from the planet (which might be unlikely given their state of evolution), a Colonial (i.e. Boxey), or a Cylon (which would have to be Leoben since he was the only male Cylon that joined the Civil War on the Sixes' side, right? Simon and Doval stayed with Cavil).

How likely is it that Hera would have mated with a native during her lifetime? Would the Colonials and Cylons have integrated themselves that early into the populace, or waited until they achieved a higher degree of evolution (i.e. invent the wheel)?

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-05-08T12:57:49Z

ManofTheAtom: /* The Colonials were NOT "human" (in the modern sense) */

== Move ==
Why move this? The way I understand this, this is still episode 20, but it will be lengthened to actually be 3 episodes long. So in a away there are 21/22 episodes even, and not 19. However, [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/06/battlestars-fin.html This] says that the season will be 11 hours and not 12, but that doesn't mean that we need to get rid of episode 19 already. Especially given that the finale will probably air in at least 2 parts. So it makes some sense to have separate episodes guides for two airings. By production numbers this would be one episode, but split apart by airdate numbers. Maybe we should wait for some further clarification. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:It could be split up into 3 parts in reruns. I think it would be easier to start with a single article and then split as necessary after it airs. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::If Sci Fi is gonna pull a Miniseries and air this thing in two parts, we should pull a Miniseries too and have [[Miniseries, Night 1|separate]] [[Miniseries, Night 2|articles]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Which we can do after we know where the break point is. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 09:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to split the article at this time. We won't know how things will be aired until they're actually aired. All we know for now is that the finale's been extended... that's it. Creating two or three sections based on something we have absolutely very little information on is just... ill-advised. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 13:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:The proposal wasn't a split, but a merge with 419 I think (the article exists. It just isn't linked to, because it's an empty skeleton). But the result is the same. The way I understand it, 419+420 will be the finale then, with both episodes running 3 hours together (incl. ads I guess). We'll see. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::Ah, ok. Sounded like it would be a split, with at least one additional article, seeing as each article would cover an hour. Anyway, we don't have enough information to be certain; it's still really all up in the air, and they have now until doomsday to figure out how to release the thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

==Title==
''Daybreak, Part 2'' (and ''Part 3'') [http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/09/battlestar-galactica-cruise-book.html according to producer Mark Verheiden].--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 19:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE change the title of the page to Part II & Part III -- It is being sold on iTunes, Amazon, etc. and two completely different episodes and this actually screwed me up immensely because I ended up reading spoilers for Part 3 before I started watching it. Yes, this is how it aired, but it is not how it is being archived. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 13:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Analysis==
"Ronald D. Moore appears in a cameo as the man holding a National Geographic magazine in New York City. "

I think there is much more to it. Ronald D. Moore is appearing as himself reading that article because his knowledge of "Eve" influenced the series. In other words, the series is a result of the events depicted in the series. With that scene, Battlestar Galactica becomes part of Battlestar Galactica.

:This is impossibel since as of 2009 mitochondrial Eve's remains haven't been found yet, this scene is set in the future, after the series ended.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::Checkout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve. First articals apearred in 2003 ;)

It's not the same thing: we've known about mitochondrial Eve since before the series started, but her actual remains have not been found, there were never any bones of her found up to this day.
It's possible that Moore knowing about Eve's existence may have influenced the show, but he has never read an NGC article about the finding of her remains, simply because those remains haven't been found and thus never made their way into an NGC article.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Notes==

I recognised it immediately when watching the episode (and it's already on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_(Battlestar_Galactica)#Outside_references ), the "Kodiak" spacecraft from Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun can be seen among the fleet during this episode.

==(Un)answered questions)==

The following Ron Moore interview clears up some misunderstandings about the show: http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html

1) Kara Thrace's father was NOT the lost cylon Daniel.

2) The Missiles Racetrack's Raptor (accidentally) fires at the cylon colony were nukes that severely damaged the colony and made it fall from its stable orbit into the singularity (black hole) so the colony has been utterly destroyed.

3) The Earth which is discovered in this episode is not the same planet that was discovered in "Revelations." The Earth of "Revelations" was not the planet we now live on, but our Earth was named after it.

There are still a bunch of unanswered questions:

1) What is the nature of the divine power (although this was probably intentionally left unanswered.)

2) Who were the Lords of Kobol and what happened to that world?

3) How did the colonials get from Kobol to the colonies and if they were technologically advanced, how did they loose all knowledge of Kobol, save for some religious texts?

4) What happened to those who nuked the old Earth 2000 years ago, some of these victors would have survived, but they re never seen or heard from.

5) Why didn't Cavil and his cylons try to re-invent resurrection themselves as the technology wasn't that far ahead of them (it was re-invented by the final five on old-Earth in a civilization that hadn't even invented jump drives.)

6) How could the resurrection hub control all resurrection ships while there was never any mention of FTL-communication on the show and why wasn't the resurrection hub integrated into the colony rather than floating around in deep space, vulnerable and guarded by only 2 baseships.

7) Was the colony really the place where all cylons lived, was their civilization so small (and clearly no match for the colonial military before the holocaust) and are there no baseships left out there that still have cylons aboard who want to exact their revenge on humanity? They may die out like the article suggests, but there's nothing stopping them from taking Earth with them (provided they find it within their lifetime.)

8) What happened to the other rebel cylons? Was it just the 3 baseships that rebelled, and if not, where are the other 2's, 6's and 8's?

9) How did Lee get everyone to agree to give up technology (even medical)?

10) Had it not made more sense to build new cities on Earth and rebuild the advanced colonial civilization, when everyone understood how important equal treatment of cylons and humans is, instead of letting Earth's humans build their own civilization thousands of years later, humans who are likely to make the same old mistakes with artificial intelligence and repeat the cycle?

11) How come no intelligent alien life has ever been encountered by colonials or cylons in their histories, but when it finally happens these aliens are identical to humans, who somehow evolved separately from the Kobol humans? Somehow this amazing coincidence being an "act of God" seems like a rather unsatisfactory answer.

12) Since all the fleet's decisions after the Ellen's reapperarance have been about breaking the cycle, is Lee afraid that by having superior technology on earth the cylons and colonials would "enslave" the native population, creating yet another cycle?

-- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

:: He doesn't actually say that about Kara. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

You're right, I've edited my post. -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

: I'd still like to know the origin of Kara's pristine Viper from her resurrection or how she died going into a gas giant with her corpse resting on a planet light-years away. And what the deal is with the Centurions from "Razor" and the Hybrid they deified. And while I understand his prophesy, I'd like to know why the old Hybrid didn't want Kara to lead a new civilisation to Earth. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:36, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Her being sent back with a new viper was supposed to be an act of the divine power. I think the Razor centurions were explained as regular mutineers, they saw the first hybrid as some kind of prophet because of the way it talked and wanted to protect it from being scrapped. Seeing as how Kara was largely responsible for the end of Cylon civilization, except the few centurions that are still left, this explains why '''CYLON''" hybrids call her the harbinger of death (it was never stated she was the harbinger of death for humanity.) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Gully, as for question four the Thirteenth Tribe's Earth got nuked by their Centurions. From the surface, not from space. M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). The Final Five secretly built a ship and rebuilt resurrection (Which the 13th Tribe hadn't needed since first achieving reproduction on Kobol). That was how they escaped. -- [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 04:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: Alright, but being centurions the radiation wouldn't really hurt them, they could easily have created their own civilization after the dust settled (a bit like the machines in the "Terminator".) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Machines can be disabled by radiation, and the impacts themselves would have destroyed the Centurions. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

From the article: “Since the notes of All Along the Watchtower lead to Earth, do they still serve a purpose on Earth?” answer: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen_(film) yes]. -- [[User:LaloMartins|LaloMartins]] 12:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Regarding point six, in [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]], it was stated that, when the [[Resurrection Hub]] jumps, it transmits its' new location to the [[Hybrid]]s, so FTL communication technology definitely exists. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Adding a question on, the CGI Raptor launched ''16'' missiles, why were only 8 shown after the launch scene?--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 06:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

==== What Precisely Killed [[Margaret Edmondson|Racetrack]] and [[Hamish McCall|Skulls]]? ====

The Marines in the rear of the cabin were killed by explosive decompression and vacuum exposure, but Racetrack and Skulls were in sealed pressure suits. I don't recall seeing suit damage in that quick shot of Margaret's hand falling on the missile-launch button. Did the one penetrating rock cause invisible crushing injuries to both of them? It didn't look big enough to hit both of them square on. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 08:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:Skulls whas hit in his face or chest by the rock and there was a small hole in Racetrack's helmet when her hand fell on the button.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

==== [[Delphi]] ====

In the episode "[[Downloaded]]" the cylons were rebuilding the Caprican city of [[Delphi]] and living in it. Was this effort completely abandoned when the Cylons decided to occupy [[New Caprica]]? Or has the effort to recover [[Caprica_(RDM)|Caprica]] continued all this time and is it still occupied? Are there still a substantial number of human-Cylons living on Caprica? Will it become like first Earth before their holocaust, an entirely Cylon-populated society? Are any humans stragglers left alive on either Caprica or New Caprica? -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 09:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

: They likely did leave the colonies after [[Downloaded]], there may still be some baseships out there, but the cylons on them are aging and cannot procreate. Even if they found Earth within their lifetimes a handful of basestars probably don't have enough nukes to obliterate the Earth's surface, that is assuming they'll actually know humans are living on Earth: it's pretty hard to find a stone age culture or neolithic society from space, even when you're actively looking for them (sure the colonials found one tribe, but in order to kill all humans with a limited number of nukes you'd have to know the positions of every tribe on Earth.)
There may be human survivors left on the colonies but it's unlikely: sure, they may have survived the nukes and the radiation, but the cylons actively hunted them down, probably to populations too small to repopulate the planets.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

:: The Cylons left the Twelve Colonies altogether in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]], remember? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:37, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

==== Lost Viper ====

During the "back-breaking" of ''Galactica'' a Viper fell out of the bow of the port flightpod and floated downward relative to the ship, which was horizontal relative to the moon below. Has RDM mentioned what happened to it? Was it recovered to the ship, was it left adrift in Solar orbit (where it theoretically could still be), or did it crash onto the Moon? (Which would leave wreckage which could be discovered in the present or future.) -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 21:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

==== Birch trees ====

(A notation rather than a question.) Birch trees don't grow and never grew in Africa, yet we clearly see them in /B/r/i/t/i/s/h/ /C/o/l/u/m/b/i/a/ Africa at the Colonial landing site. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 21:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

== The Angels Make Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. ''

----
From Act 10 section of article: "(This is in the year 1987 AD.)" How can it be 1987 when the flat panel TV clearly showed MSNBC logo at the bottom? MSNBC was created in 1996.--[[User:Steven512|Steven512]] 14:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Yes, the robots you see in this scene were also developed after 1987 and as far as I know the remains of mitochondrial Eve have never been found.
In 1987 it was discovered that there had been a mitochondrial Eve, this was based on DNA-research among modern humans, her actual remains have not been found to this day so the scene takes place in the near future (it could even be tomorrow), not in 1987!
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

== Hera's Mate = Boxey? ==

From the notes section

''On the second Earth Hera's mate that produced children was most likely human. Saul Tigh and the Leobens would be too old for her. While it was fairly common in ancient times for the men to be far older than their brides (particularly with royalty), for example with the female being as young as 12 and and the male being say 60 to take an extreme, Colonial mores, which are much like our own in real life, would forbid the Leobens from sexual congress with Hera when she reach the accepted reproductive age. On the other hand there were many human children about her age and slightly older in the Fleet. She could had also had children with a human child unborn at the time of the landing on Second Earth perhaps within five years to ten years of her age. It is possible that other hybrid children could had been born after the landing given that the Twos, Sixes, and Eights joined the humans. And it is possible that pure Cylon children could had been born to the age compatible Sixes, Eights, and Leobens but as noted in the series it is difficult if not impossible for a pure Cylon child to come to term making any pool of pure Cylon children that were successfully born very small. Cylon-Human mating with a human male with a Six or a Sharon is very possible with the example of Hera herself an significantly more likely than with a Cylon-Cylon birth, but it is harder than with human-human pairings making any pool of those pairing while much more likely and larger than Cylon-Cylon offspring, still quite small number compared to pure human offspring. Therefore Hera's offspring is most likely with a human. A more remote possibility is with another Cylon-human hybrid. Her producing children with a pure Cylon offspring is the least likely since pure Cylons are the least likely to exist.''

Boxey could be Hera's mate. It would make sense.

Boxey as Y-chromosomal Adam? Or would that be "Adama"? heh--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: The chromosomal Adam live tens of thousands of years after the Mitochondrial Eve.

: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 17:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
::Walabio is right and why would it be more likely for Hera to end up with Boxey instead of with one of the other hundreds of children from the fleet?
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 18:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::The ''Y-chromosomal Adam'' reference was to make the pun based on Boxey being Apollo's adopted son in TOS :). As for why it would make sense, it be for no other reason that it would give the RDM version of the character some (belated) importance, which he lacked through the run of the show. Why have her end up with some random kid from the fleet than have her end up with a character who had some level of development? Plus, look at it this way, the original intent according to some references on this site say that the plan was to make Boxey, Tyrol, and Sharon (Boomer) a makeshift family. Having him end up with Hera accomplishes part of that intent as he'd be related to one version of Sharon (Athena)--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It is a moot point. He had NO relevant to BSG any more since they dropped him as a character. If they didn't drop him as a character I think the perfect end would had been making him that guy that was killed in the mutiny, you know the one that acted as a runner between CIC and some damaged area of the ship to get a damage report for Adama at the near the beginning of the mutiny? He was then later killed by Gaeta's trigger happy Marines when he pushed Adama to the deck, saving his life. That would had been a good way for Boxey to go. He would had been the right age (17) and would had gave his character an ultimate purpose, to save Adama when the time came.
::: Of course it is possible for Boxey and Hera to had gotten together. He would had been 14 years old when Hera was born but with Hera say 20 years old Boxey would had been 34, a reasonable age difference allowable in both our and Colonial Society. And further it would had been another of the shows many ironies and "what goes around, comes around" themes: Boxey, who was taken in by Boomer, an Eight as a quasi foster son, later marries the daughter of Athena, an Eight, who was stolen and then given back by Boomer who was then killed Athena. Imagine all the physiological turmoil that could case Boxey. This show thrived on that sort of thing. LOL [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

== Number Three ==

Couldn't they have sent a Raptor or an FTL-capable ship to find Number Three and bring her to the New Earth with them? It would have been the humane thing to do. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: She was left on a dead-to-humans world, where the only plant life we saw were grasses or other non-edibles, with a background radiation count above the safe level beyond short exposure: even the water was contaminated. She probably died within a few weeks of being left behind. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 12:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Good point. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It was established by Athena in [[The Passage]] that Cylons are far more resistant to radiation than humans are. In fact they bombed [[Caprica]] and the other Colonies with high yield nuclear weapons '''outside''' the cities so they could kill the humans but keep the buildings and infrastructure intact. We saw them settling in [[Caprica City]] in "[[Downloaded]]" even reopening the coffee shops, so radiation is of no problem to them (except for the rare special kind of Nebula radiation at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]) So it is possible for [[D'Anna Biers]] to survive the radiation of Earth One and even drink the rain water. Food on the other hand would be a problem and I saw no evidence of surviving animal life, and this all assumes that she wanted to survive, which I don't think she would due to staying on the radioactive rock in the first place. Still, it would had been a nice thing to try to find her. Maybe a miracle would had happened LOL. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 00:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

== "No Further Significant Revelations..."==

I think this statement in the advisory tag is premature. There's still "The Plan", as well as, in theory, the Caprica series, both of which might provide further revelations with regards to Daybreak and the series itself. Certainly The Plan, anyway. Not to mention the presumed deleted scenes that will be on the DVD and there's a rumor Daybreak will be extended for the DVD as well. There's still a chance for some issues to be resolved. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 13:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:That's interesting. I don't expect The Plan to reveal much of anything about what Kara became or who the Virtual beings were, but Caprica might explore it given the establishment that they appear at times when the cycle of time (machine on human violence) begins. Caprica might provide the answers to the lingering questions if for nothing more than to give fans of BSG a reason to watch. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::Let's hope so, though I don't expect they will reveal much more about the divine powers or the angels, ever. It would take away the mystery and the sense that there is something bigger than us (humans and cylons), now we are left wondering if the divine power is a God, or just a very advanced race (maybe the perpetrators (or their descendents) of the first holocaust during the first cycle are feeling guilty) and I think that's how Ron Moore intended it to be. However, ''Caprica'' may reveal more about colonial history: what happened to Kobol, how did humans move from Kobol to the colonies, why was that history almost completely forgotten (was there a colonial dark age) and who or what were the Lords of Kobol? --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:::I'm sure that many people would agree, or at least theorize, that the virtual beings are Moore's version of the beings of light from the Ship of Lights, especially considering what happened to Kara, which I've seen (here or elsewhere, I forget) compared to what happened to the Starbuck from the original series on the last episode of Galactica 80. I think that the reason why Moore must have decided to leave things vague is that he didn't want to "cheapen it" by introducing something like the Ship of Lights into his show, which was more realistic than the original version. Now that I think about it, when Baltar tells Six that "it" doesn't like to be called God, it could be that "it" is the Ship of Lights or whatever version of it that exist in this version of the story. It would be cool if there was more exploration of this in Caprica, as well as further exploration of the "jealous God" from Kobol (which I'm sure we'll hear more of due to this headmistress in Caprica who doesn't believe in the Lords of Kobol) and all the other lingering questions from the show. In fact, given that religion is an important aspect of Caprica as it was in BSG (RDM) I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more of this down the line. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 17:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::::Hi, guys. Here's my two cents, since I'm the Senior Chief that added the special notice. "No further significant revelations" means "the story is generally over." BSG isn't Star Trek, guys. RDM has stated that there are some elements of the story that he wouldn't resolve, but that he would resolve the important stuff. Is that etched in stone somewhere? No. I'm sure ''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'' may open a few new questions. But until that series debuts, what we have is what we have. Battlestar Wiki allows some speculation because we're talking about a work of fiction. But to speculate further when no further answers are likely and people are making what's otherwise original research--that's [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]], and it's not allowed on Battlestar Wiki. For the purposes of this episode summary because its so long (and must be), we have to keep focus and not overload the article. Episode summaries are the only articles where questions can be asked (provided they don't go out of control) but many questions will not be answered. As soon as the noise dies down we can move some pressing questions to [[BW:OC|our special Q&A page answered by BSG co-producer Bradley Thompson]]. In my opinion, the nature of the Virtual Beings and Kara have been answered as far as RDM wanted to do. They are beings of divine source--and folks, religion is one thing that RDM loved to keep close to his chest to add to the BSG mystique. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::::: I'm not saying that The Plan is going to answer all the unanswered questions, etc. However The Plan has been acknowledged as the coda for this series, and just as important to it as Razor was. However the special notice as I saw it wasn't just in reference to Daybreak, but to the Wiki in general, and that's where I think it's premature. In terms of Daybreak itself, I agree that any additional revelations in The Plan will likely be minor and there are unlikely to be any in Caprica at all relating to that particular episode. But I think questions that come to mind are still worth asking with regards to characters that could be addressed in The Plan. And unless someone has already seen The Plan, or RDM has explicitly stated otherwise, we can't really predict which characters may or may not be addressed. Something that might be interesting once The Plan airs and is analysed is to go through the episode articles and compile the outstanding questions that the series has left unanswered. I think there will be fewer than some think, with the remainder being just enough to put this series into the same league as "The Prisoner" in that people will still be arguing over "what does it mean" 40 years from now. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

== How did the fleet reach Earth 2 / New Earth? ==
As far as I understood it before Galactica departed for the Colony they agreed to a rendezvous location with the fleet. But when jumping away from the colony Starbuck punched in the numbers of the song and Galactica jumped for its last time. But when it reappeared over New Earth the fleet also jumped right in. How did they get the coordinates (a raptor jumping to the rendezvous location?)? But how did they get them so fast? [[User:DJ Doena|DJ Doena]] 14:02, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:Galactica still had a few raptors left (we saw 7 of them landed on Earth) and 12 hours passed between the shot of Galactica jumping near the Moon and the rest of the fleet showing up, nothing fishy going on there. --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::The key here was time pressure. Someone had the coordinates, but with the chaos of getting sucked into a black hole, no one could give them to Kara in time before ''Galactica's'' final jump. When all was stable, someone remembered/recalled the Fleet's coordinates, sent a Raptor, and all was good. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:You missed the letters onscreen spelling "Twelve Hours Later". -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Consolidation change ==

Hey everyone! I just wanted to take a moment to explain the format and consolidation change for Act I. This change is a test for updating the event summary because:

*Each detail does not require a bullet.
*Having bullets for every event make it look redundant.

*However, having bullets between major events makes the summary flow a little better. This was the approach I used when summarizing [[Daybreak, Part I]]. It gives each scene a sense of distinction, like this example.

Are there any other opinions regarding this proposed change? If it's OK, I can start work on the other acts. -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 20:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:Given the massive data, it's okay to condense a few points. But keep it to maybe three or four lines condensed. Any larger and it's hard to follow. Try to keep it looking like the other episode guides as much as possible for consistency. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for the working guideline. As of this writing, Act I & II are done, and starting on the rest. Hope you guys like it! -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 07:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

==The robot at the end==
I corrected an addition in Story Notes that suggested the female robot at the very end is the one that was unveiled only a few days before the broadcast. That would have been very cool, but it's actually the "Actroid" which was unveiled 4 years ago. Interestingly I found Actroid, a 4-year-old technology, to be more lifelike than the one unveiled last week... [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

==The model on the cover of "Sports Limited"==
Here's a challenge for those who watched this on HD sets... I've heard it suggested that the model on the cover of "Sports Limited" (the SI-like magazine seen on the newsstand) might actually be Tricia Helfer. I can't tell at all on the computer-screen I'm using, but it might be a neat bit of trivia (not to mention it would open a line of speculation as to whether the Sixes have survived to the present day) if it's true. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 16:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

== Questions Section ==

I can never be more blunt than I tried to be before on these last two guides. The questions sections follow strict rules [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions/Episode_Guides#Questions_Section]] is the policy on this section. I am going to again clear out the questions section with the bad stuff. Users who do not follow our polices on the [[BW:SAC]] will be warned and if after being warned by doing it again, will be banned. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 02:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== Lie-dector test "question" ==

In the Questions section, somebody asked:'' "During the lie detector test in the flashback scene of William Adama's attempt to secure a civilian job, why did the interrogator ask him if he was a Cylon?"''

This was a control question in order to get a baseline from which to compare the real questions for deception. Such as if a polygraph-operator were to ask "Are you a dinosaur?" This fact was made immediately clear in the dialogue. This was in no way left unclear. It's not a mystery. It's not even a debate.

I've deleted it.

== What year is it "question" ==

Another rediculous addition to the Questions section: ''"What year is it on Earth during the final scene?"''

That too was answered by the title: "150,000 Years Later". Go back 150,000 years from 2009 AD, and you have the answer: 148000 B.C.E.

I've deleted the question.

== Regarding my edits to Questions Section ==

I've removed these three questions:

* Why so many zeros in the Model 0005?
* Does either Battlestar Galactica TV series exist in some form on the new Earth?
* Who or what is God exactly?

The first two are completely and utterly ridiculous and do not have any merit as questions. They will never be answered, and it's simply beneath the scope of what questions should be in that section in the first place.

The third question has been pretty much answered in the series by Baltar, who is essentially the mouthpiece of the writers coda on that subject. In the universe of BSG, God is a force of nature who doesn't like the name "God." -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== Galactica breaking her back ==

Just noticed, Galactica made her final jump with her flight pods out, maybe thats what caused the damage? I mean the extra forces exerted on the ship because of the higher amount of ship to effect. It makes sense that Galactica jumping without her pods retracted would place extraordinary amount of stress on the ship. Every other time even when dropping through the atmosphere at New Caprica the Galactica always had her pods retracted fro a jump.
--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 08:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

:That could very well have been a contributing factor, but there are many other factors in play, too, namely
:*her age,
:*compromises made during construction,
:*accumulated stresses and fractures from past battle damage and the sheer number of jumps,
:*lack of proper dock repair and maintenance,
:*her last sustained pounding at close-range, and ramming into the Colony.
:And consider that Adama and Tigh were told that she only had a few more jumps in her before she suffers structural damage. The old girl was already falling apart.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 13:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I remember that one of the specialists told Adama that Galactica had 5 jumps left max, but nevermind it I just took notice of it and wanted to see what everyone else thought of it. EDIT: Also noticed that Glactica's flight pods went up and down of their own accord after the jump, maybe thats why they retract the pods? I think the Mercuries could non-retract jump because of the way their support struts are placed. By the looks of it the movement of the pods was absolutely massive and that kind of stress would most certainly break Galactica's back no matter what sort of structural damage she had before. --[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 07:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

:A suspension bridge's cables snap, and the road buckles. Overwhelming stresses on the road deform it, and the cables snap. A similar arguement can be made for the flight pods. There could have been torque forces on the pods, but the loss of lateral supports could have affected the ship's rigidity that caused the body to flex, which could also cause the flight pods to sway, too.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 07:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

==Cylon Longevity==

According to [[No Exit]], Ellen and the others created Cavil in the image of her father, so it stands to reason that, 40 years prior to the fall of the colonies, he was already a man in his 70'(s?) and in fact had not aged in those four decades. It can be assumed that the same holds true for the other six humanoid cylons, all of which were considerably younger than him.

The point here is, if humaoid Cylons don't age then the surviving Cylons who didn't make it to Earth wouldn't have died out as it has been speculated, be it from old age or lack of mates to reproduce with. Their longevity could surpass human longevity and they could be alive at the end of the series.

Furthermore there's the issue of boxing. They could have boxed themselves as a form of suspended animation to ensure their survival and programmed Guardian Centurions to watch over them.

All in all, there are many number of ways in which the humanoid Cylons that didn't make it to Earth could have survived. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit: Now that I think about it, what about the Cylons who did make it to Earth? If they don't age, how did they die out? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

: Perhaps aging was only a non-issue when they had resurrection tech. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::You mean, they did age but then transfered their conciousness to younger bodies? That's possible. What about the option to box their conciousness? They could still survive that way (sure, their bodies might die out without some form of suspended animation given that they are biological, but their conciousness could survive as 1s and 0s that could be downloaded into new bodies 150,000 years later). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Removed questions ==

I've removed the following questions:
* Who were/are the Lords of Kobol?
** Good question, but not one with any connection to this episode.
* What year is the present day?
** I'm not sure what this is asking. We are shown that the Colonial's present is 150 000 years before our own.
* Who is the dying leader? Laura Roslin? Galactica? Starbuck?
** The narrative gives us many explicit statements that it is Roslin, and she fits the role perfectly, making it unnecessary to try and jam someone else into the position. Doing so without clear indications from the show is speculation.
* What’s the deal with Kara Thrace?
** She was sent back by "God" as an angel to guide the people to the new Earth. Covered fairly conclusively, if not explicitly.
* What is the true nature of the Head People?
** They were angels, as was stated many times.
* Who or what is guiding events?
** Something akin to "God", though it doesn't like to be called that. I think this is covered sufficiently in the earlier question about why "God" is guiding events.
* Is Virtual Baltar really the archangel Gabriel? If not, is Virtual Leobon? (Assuming they're not actually the same being, that is.)
** Theory without basis in the show.
--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 23:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

== Parallel evolution ==

It is implausible scientifically that Earth humans and Colonials just happened to evolve in parallel without outside influence (possibly from the head beings). Therefore, I wouldn't state it as fact that they're alien to each other -- there is no support for that in the show. The facts are that they can mate and that the characters are surprised about humans existing on Earth, but I wouldn't go as far as drawing conclusions about the origins of Colonials and humans. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

:It could be that in the Galactica universe humans are the standard of life across the universe, which is why they never encountered other life forms during their travels. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:: I covered this on this very talkpage [[#The_Angels_Make_Life_In_This_Galaxy_Boringly_Homogenous. | here. ]] Basically, the [[Angel]]s guide evolution subtly by such means as dropping huge asteroids on the dinosaurs so that they can create dodos in their place. Because of these [[Angel]]s life is the same everywhere right down to identical pianofortes playing [[the Music | All Along The Watchtower. ]]

:: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 18:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::Most importantly, don't forget the suits and ties, which were reinvented by accident or through the collective unconscious. Back to the topic, though - all I'm saying is that the fact that Earth humans are primitive in that era does not necessarily imply that the Colonials evolved totally independently on Kobol and are therefore aliens, as the note in the article stated. No need to make such bold conclusions for the sake of "You know what that actualy means?"-type trivia; we know the visible facts, and they should be reported as such, and we know there is a LOT that we don't know about the head beings, which opens up any number of possibilities for future storytelling. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 20:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::"And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees" The Algae planet could have been terraformed by the 13th Tribe before they reached Earth (maybe they intended to settle there but then learned of the supernova and changed their minds, but not after they had terraformed the planet and built the temple). New Caprica had trees? Wasn't it mostly a desert? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::: I shall address the remarks of Graf Iblis, None Of Your Business, and Man of the Atom together:

::::: What Graf Iblis says could make sense:

::::: Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense.

::::: About the trees on New Caprica, trees on our Earth come in 3 shapes:

* - Cone-Shaped

* - Mushroom-Shaped

* - Palm-Tree-Shaped

::::: For all 3 shapes one can find both angiosperms and gymnosperms. For the Palm-Tree-shaped we even have some ferns too. Convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs probably can explain the trees looking alike.

::::: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 23:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::: If the same tree species, and foxes, and chickens, and so on, can evolve on different planets without terraforming, humans aren't a stretch. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: But the trees need not be the same species on New Caprica.. Indeed, they may have only a superficial resemblance to each other. Despite looking externally similar ichthyosaurs and sharks are very different. For foxes, pidgins, humans, et cetera to be on both Cobol and our Earth, the [[Angel]]s would have to stear biological evolution on both planets or scooped up these organisms on our Earth where we know for a fact they evolved and taken them to Cobol.

::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: And the Twelve Colonies, if humans didn't bring them from Kobol (and I doubt they did). -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 03:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: It was mine understanding that the Colonists brought life from Cobol and terraformed the 12 planets orbiting a few stars in an open star-cluster.

::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::: No one ever said this. Was it in the role-playing game? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::: No. It just 1 of only 2 ideas making sense:

# - The Colonists terraformed several planets orbiting several stars in an open starcluster.
# - The Colonists rearranged 12 planets and moons of a star so that they all orbit stably within the habitable zone of a star and then terraformed them.

::::::::::: Nowhere in the show do we see any hint of the capability to move planets.

::::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::::: Or there were twleve habitable planets. It's not that far-fetched in light of Earth and Kobol both having humans. If you think that both did naturally. Which I do, since the Colonials had the concept of evolution. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 02:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::::::: > “Or there were twleve habitable planets.”

::::::::::::: You want something that cannot be. One cannot have twelve planets forming the habitable zone of a star. Even if one could, not all twelve would be habitable.

::::::::::::: > “It’s not that far-fetched in light of Earth and Kobol both having humans. If you think that both did naturally. Which I do, since the Colonials had the concept of evolution”

::::::::::::: > They could not both have evolved naturally. Biological evolution has 2 components:

# - Natural Selection
# - Random Mutation

::::::::::::: Natural selection is not random, but random selection is random. The solution-space is too large and the process to stochastic. One would not have humans and chickens arising on other worlds. ¿Does Australia have bison or kangaroos? Even with extreme convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs, they do not become the same species like Colonials and the humans on our Earth.

::::::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: "Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense." It goes without saying that BSG left people wanting more. One thing I would like to know more about is who the Lords of Kobol were, what their relationship with the Angels/Messengers was, and who the jealous Lord that Elosha mentioned in "Kobol's Last Gleaming" was meant to be. Was he Iblis? Was he God? Was Iblis meant to be God? According to some text on the first season finale's page, RDM wanted Dirk Benedick to play Iblis and introduce himself to Baltar as God. Could this still happen? Did RDM change his mind and made God a "force of nature", or did Iblis/Jealous Lord EVOLVE into a force of nature? Is it that he (it?) doesn't like to be called God because he prefers to be called "Iblis"? Wasn't Iblis refered to as Lord in the original show? (Lord Iblis sounds right to me). Iblis as the one true God who orchestrated everything that happened to the Colonials and the Cylons... wouldn't that be a twist (just like Starbuck being a woman was a twist) on the original? Iblis goes from being Satan to being God... I HOPE that this is explored more deeply in Caprica... How could it NOT be given that it features a religious school, right? What else will those characters talk about if not Colonial theology and the Lords of Kobol (as well as the jealous Lord of Kobol). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: I doubt that Ronald D. Moore will ever directly answer these questions. He will probably just frak up our minds even more.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: There's a chance that RDM intended to answer these and other questions on BSG, but when the opportunity came to develop a spin off (Caprica) he could have made the choice to abandon these plots and focus on the survival aspect of the story instead and keep them to be developed later in Caprica. With characters like the teacher/nun who believes in the "one true God", locations like the Athena school (is is Athena? I forget), and the cult of religious believers that Zoe Graystone's boyfriend belongs to, there's considerable evidence to believe that these topics will be explored in the series, either as fully-developed plots or just casual conversation (i.e. dialogue spoken in a classroom, a conversation between this teacher/nun and maybe a younger Elosha in the school's quad)... It would stand to reason that given that Caprica seems to be more deeply rooted in the theology of BSG that it would explore these ideas, which might be why they stopped being an issue in BSG, which was more about finding Earth/a new world than in about discovering the "truth of God". --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 01:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: I always figured that it is just another crazy cult. On our Earth, people blow themselves up in the name of the one true god all of the time. The one true cylon-god is nothing more than the one true god of the cult of the of true god.

::::::::: Both Joseph Adams and William Adama are atheists. Lee Adama seems indifferent to religion. I wonder whether this is nature or nurture.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: It could be a result of their loosing their family in the explosion. It could be that Joseph decides that religion only results in hatred (it is religion that pushes Zoe's boyfriend into detonating the bomb). The question is in finding the link between the Cylon's worship of the one true God and the cult that Zoe's boyfriend belogns to. Why would Daniel Graystone instill religion into the Cylons? If not him, then who, how, and why? Is it Zoe's friend? Is it the teacher/nun? Is it Virtual Zoe? Why would any Graystone believe in the one true God whose followers caused the death of Zoe, Adama's sister and mother, and all those other people?... Speaking of Virtual Zoe, will she be connected to Virtual Six and Virtual Baltar? Is the one true God really a divine being (i.e. a Lord of Kobol), a "force of nature", or a man inside a space ship (a ship of lights, if you will) who uses Graystone's Cylon and Virtual echnologies to influence Colonial life (well, that might not track given that the messengers visited the 13th Colony 2000 years prior to the creation of the Cononial Cylons, but wouldn't it be cool if it did, heh?). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 13:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: The messengers saw Kobol and Earth as well as Caprica, so they can't be the product of Graystone technology. Right now, the best answer for the Centurions' monotheism is that they're Zoe's descendants. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

== The Colonials were NOT "human" (in the modern sense) ==
I've restored the bit about the characters not being "human" in the modern sense of the term and that the series was fundamentally the saga of an alien race. If you actually listened to Dr. Cottle, he said the DNA of the early Earth humans is "compatible" to Colonial DNA. He didn't say it was exactly the same. Going by that, it's completely fair to conclude that the Colonials and early humans were NOT genetically identical. They simply had analogous DNA structures. We already know they had at least one physiological difference: the Colonials didn't have a universal blood donor type.

As for "our" connection with them; within the ''Battlestar Galactica'' universe, modern humans are NOT Colonials. We are a hybridization of Colonials AND the native humans. So the characters of ''Battlestar Galactica'' were indeed "aliens" and not "human" in the sense of what we consider human today. By the nature of them not evolving on Earth, they were most certainly extraterrestrial. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]]

: Extraterrestrial and alien have different meanings. The former simply means "not from Earth", the latter is a relative term for something the speaker has no relationship to. It is obvious that Colonials are extraterrestrial. They are not alien to us, just as the Cylons and the Earth natives are not.

: There's no evidence that they didn't have a universal blood donor type. The copy of Baltar's Lab Notes sold at the big auction shows that Hera's blood was unusual because it had no antigens whatsoever, not just ABO. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:21, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
---------------
Here are my problems with the paragraph:

1) The revelation that the Colonial "humans" evolved separately from Earth humans...

::Where is this demonstrated in the series? All we know for sure is that practically identical Colonials arrived on our Earth more than 150,000 years ago. We have absolutely no idea how they came to be on Kobol. Why are you so eager to jump to conclusions about totally separate evolution processes of practically identical races, especially with the huge uncertainty factor of the "God" entity taking an active part in everyone's life? I would be extremely careful - if the "God" entity is so powerful and capable of surviving over 150,000 years, it could have manipulated life on Kobol based on life on Earth. No need to ignore the scientific facts of evolution in that case. Therefore, I propose to stick to the facts, and not espouse anyone's theory of how the two groups evolved, either yours or mine. The Colonials arrived on Earth 150,000 years ago and they can mate with the local population. That's it.

2) ...means that fundamentally none of the so-called "human" characters of the series were actually human in the sense of what we consider human today. Instead, they were an outwardly indistinguishable from Homo sapiens extraterrestrial species with compatible DNA to Homo sapiens as a result of a parallel evolution.

::Again, no evidence for parallel evolution, which would be extremely unlikely. The facts are: Colonials came from Kobol as far as they know, although they don't know much about their early history.

3) The reimagined Battlestar Galactica was actually the saga of an alien race.

::No proof. In order to prove that it is an alien race, you have to prove that they evolved completely separately, despite all the physical similarities and an extremely influential "God" entity observing the events over hundreds of thousands of years and taking an active part in them.

It is extremely important to stick to verifiable facts on such shaky ground, with so much about the "God" entity remaining unknown. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

*[[Jane Espenson]] (one of BSG's writers and executive producers) has confirmed in an interview that Kobol was indeed the "original origin point for humanity" (i.e. Colonials) [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html]. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 21:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

:I think this is likely the case, but unfortunately her wording is "I've always taken it to be Kobol." -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

:Jane, Ron, any writer or producer. If you see this, could you please clear things up for us? --- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 21:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
-----
As noted, she assumed it to be Kobol. If you quote her exactly, I don't mind, but that does not mean that Ron Moore shares the opinion absolutely, without possibility of change, or that any other writers do. Remember how fluid and unpredictable BSG writing tends to be? She also indicated in another interview that the Angels may be aliens, which is something that Ron Moore wasn't specific about; they really prefer to leave a lot of this to our interpretation. Again, quoting her on that is fine, but it should not be stated as undisputable fact. If you include the source, the reader will know that the statement does not have the same value as an onscreen demonstration, and that there are alternative explanations as well. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 21:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

-----

Wouldn't the Colonials fall within the category of Missing Link between modern humanity and the "Colonial-compatible human life" they found on Earth (2). meaning that, since modern man is the child of the mating of Colonials and those humans, he shares more in commun with them than he does with the humans they found here?

In other words, modern man, as the child of the Colonials, is the result of mating between aliens and human ancestors who shared communalities wth those aliens, thus making the Colonials humans in the modern sense since the modern sense of what means to be human is the result of that mixture of races.--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 12:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-04-28T16:23:15Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Parallel evolution */

== Move ==
Why move this? The way I understand this, this is still episode 20, but it will be lengthened to actually be 3 episodes long. So in a away there are 21/22 episodes even, and not 19. However, [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/06/battlestars-fin.html This] says that the season will be 11 hours and not 12, but that doesn't mean that we need to get rid of episode 19 already. Especially given that the finale will probably air in at least 2 parts. So it makes some sense to have separate episodes guides for two airings. By production numbers this would be one episode, but split apart by airdate numbers. Maybe we should wait for some further clarification. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:It could be split up into 3 parts in reruns. I think it would be easier to start with a single article and then split as necessary after it airs. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::If Sci Fi is gonna pull a Miniseries and air this thing in two parts, we should pull a Miniseries too and have [[Miniseries, Night 1|separate]] [[Miniseries, Night 2|articles]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Which we can do after we know where the break point is. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 09:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to split the article at this time. We won't know how things will be aired until they're actually aired. All we know for now is that the finale's been extended... that's it. Creating two or three sections based on something we have absolutely very little information on is just... ill-advised. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 13:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:The proposal wasn't a split, but a merge with 419 I think (the article exists. It just isn't linked to, because it's an empty skeleton). But the result is the same. The way I understand it, 419+420 will be the finale then, with both episodes running 3 hours together (incl. ads I guess). We'll see. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::Ah, ok. Sounded like it would be a split, with at least one additional article, seeing as each article would cover an hour. Anyway, we don't have enough information to be certain; it's still really all up in the air, and they have now until doomsday to figure out how to release the thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

==Title==
''Daybreak, Part 2'' (and ''Part 3'') [http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/09/battlestar-galactica-cruise-book.html according to producer Mark Verheiden].--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 19:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE change the title of the page to Part II & Part III -- It is being sold on iTunes, Amazon, etc. and two completely different episodes and this actually screwed me up immensely because I ended up reading spoilers for Part 3 before I started watching it. Yes, this is how it aired, but it is not how it is being archived. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 13:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Analysis==
"Ronald D. Moore appears in a cameo as the man holding a National Geographic magazine in New York City. "

I think there is much more to it. Ronald D. Moore is appearing as himself reading that article because his knowledge of "Eve" influenced the series. In other words, the series is a result of the events depicted in the series. With that scene, Battlestar Galactica becomes part of Battlestar Galactica.

:This is impossibel since as of 2009 mitochondrial Eve's remains haven't been found yet, this scene is set in the future, after the series ended.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::Checkout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve. First articals apearred in 2003 ;)

It's not the same thing: we've known about mitochondrial Eve since before the series started, but her actual remains have not been found, there were never any bones of her found up to this day.
It's possible that Moore knowing about Eve's existence may have influenced the show, but he has never read an NGC article about the finding of her remains, simply because those remains haven't been found and thus never made their way into an NGC article.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Notes==

I recognised it immediately when watching the episode (and it's already on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_(Battlestar_Galactica)#Outside_references ), the "Kodiak" spacecraft from Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun can be seen among the fleet during this episode.

==(Un)answered questions)==

The following Ron Moore interview clears up some misunderstandings about the show: http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html

1) Kara Thrace's father was NOT the lost cylon Daniel.

2) The Missiles Racetrack's Raptor (accidentally) fires at the cylon colony were nukes that severely damaged the colony and made it fall from its stable orbit into the singularity (black hole) so the colony has been utterly destroyed.

3) The Earth which is discovered in this episode is not the same planet that was discovered in "Revelations." The Earth of "Revelations" was not the planet we now live on, but our Earth was named after it.

There are still a bunch of unanswered questions:

1) What is the nature of the divine power (although this was probably intentionally left unanswered.)

2) Who were the Lords of Kobol and what happened to that world?

3) How did the colonials get from Kobol to the colonies and if they were technologically advanced, how did they loose all knowledge of Kobol, save for some religious texts?

4) What happened to those who nuked the old Earth 2000 years ago, some of these victors would have survived, but they re never seen or heard from.

5) Why didn't Cavil and his cylons try to re-invent resurrection themselves as the technology wasn't that far ahead of them (it was re-invented by the final five on old-Earth in a civilization that hadn't even invented jump drives.)

6) How could the resurrection hub control all resurrection ships while there was never any mention of FTL-communication on the show and why wasn't the resurrection hub integrated into the colony rather than floating around in deep space, vulnerable and guarded by only 2 baseships.

7) Was the colony really the place where all cylons lived, was their civilization so small (and clearly no match for the colonial military before the holocaust) and are there no baseships left out there that still have cylons aboard who want to exact their revenge on humanity? They may die out like the article suggests, but there's nothing stopping them from taking Earth with them (provided they find it within their lifetime.)

8) What happened to the other rebel cylons? Was it just the 3 baseships that rebelled, and if not, where are the other 2's, 6's and 8's?

9) How did Lee get everyone to agree to give up technology (even medical)?

10) Had it not made more sense to build new cities on Earth and rebuild the advanced colonial civilization, when everyone understood how important equal treatment of cylons and humans is, instead of letting Earth's humans build their own civilization thousands of years later, humans who are likely to make the same old mistakes with artificial intelligence and repeat the cycle?

11) How come no intelligent alien life has ever been encountered by colonials or cylons in their histories, but when it finally happens these aliens are identical to humans, who somehow evolved separately from the Kobol humans? Somehow this amazing coincidence being an "act of God" seems like a rather unsatisfactory answer.

12) Since all the fleet's decisions after the Ellen's reapperarance have been about breaking the cycle, is Lee afraid that by having superior technology on earth the cylons and colonials would "enslave" the native population, creating yet another cycle?

-- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

:: He doesn't actually say that about Kara. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

You're right, I've edited my post. -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

: I'd still like to know the origin of Kara's pristine Viper from her resurrection or how she died going into a gas giant with her corpse resting on a planet light-years away. And what the deal is with the Centurions from "Razor" and the Hybrid they deified. And while I understand his prophesy, I'd like to know why the old Hybrid didn't want Kara to lead a new civilisation to Earth. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:36, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Her being sent back with a new viper was supposed to be an act of the divine power. I think the Razor centurions were explained as regular mutineers, they saw the first hybrid as some kind of prophet because of the way it talked and wanted to protect it from being scrapped. Seeing as how Kara was largely responsible for the end of Cylon civilization, except the few centurions that are still left, this explains why '''CYLON''" hybrids call her the harbinger of death (it was never stated she was the harbinger of death for humanity.) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Gully, as for question four the Thirteenth Tribe's Earth got nuked by their Centurions. From the surface, not from space. M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). The Final Five secretly built a ship and rebuilt resurrection (Which the 13th Tribe hadn't needed since first achieving reproduction on Kobol). That was how they escaped. -- [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 04:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: Alright, but being centurions the radiation wouldn't really hurt them, they could easily have created their own civilization after the dust settled (a bit like the machines in the "Terminator".) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Machines can be disabled by radiation, and the impacts themselves would have destroyed the Centurions. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

From the article: “Since the notes of All Along the Watchtower lead to Earth, do they still serve a purpose on Earth?” answer: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen_(film) yes]. -- [[User:LaloMartins|LaloMartins]] 12:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Regarding point six, in [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]], it was stated that, when the [[Resurrection Hub]] jumps, it transmits its' new location to the [[Hybrid]]s, so FTL communication technology definitely exists. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Adding a question on, the CGI Raptor launched ''16'' missiles, why were only 8 shown after the launch scene?--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 06:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

==== What Precisely Killed [[Margaret Edmondson|Racetrack]] and [[Hamish McCall|Skulls]]? ====

The Marines in the rear of the cabin were killed by explosive decompression and vacuum exposure, but Racetrack and Skulls were in sealed pressure suits. I don't recall seeing suit damage in that quick shot of Margaret's hand falling on the missile-launch button. Did the one penetrating rock cause invisible crushing injuries to both of them? It didn't look big enough to hit both of them square on. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 08:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:Skulls whas hit in his face or chest by the rock and there was a small hole in Racetrack's helmet when her hand fell on the button.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

==== [[Delphi]] ====

In the episode "[[Downloaded]]" the cylons were rebuilding the Caprican city of [[Delphi]] and living in it. Was this effort completely abandoned when the Cylons decided to occupy [[New Caprica]]? Or has the effort to recover [[Caprica_(RDM)|Caprica]] continued all this time and is it still occupied? Are there still a substantial number of human-Cylons living on Caprica? Will it become like first Earth before their holocaust, an entirely Cylon-populated society? Are any humans stragglers left alive on either Caprica or New Caprica? -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 09:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:They likely did leave the colonies after [[Downloaded]], there may still be some baseships out there, but the cylons on them are aging and cannot procreate. Even if they found Earth within their lifetimes a handful of basestars probably don't have enough nukes to obliterate the Earth's surface, that is assuming they'll actually know humans are living on Earth: it's pretty hard to find a stone age culture or neolithic society from space, even when you're actively looking for them (sure the colonials found one tribe, but in order to kill all humans with a limited number of nukes you'd have to know the positions of every tribe on Earth.)
There may be human survivors left on the colonies but it's unlikely: sure, they may have survived the nukes and the radiation, but the cylons actively hunted them down, probably to populations too small to repopulate the planets.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== The Angels Make Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. ''

----
From Act 10 section of article: "(This is in the year 1987 AD.)" How can it be 1987 when the flat panel TV clearly showed MSNBC logo at the bottom? MSNBC was created in 1996.--[[User:Steven512|Steven512]] 14:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Yes, the robots you see in this scene were also developed after 1987 and as far as I know the remains of mitochondrial Eve have never been found.
In 1987 it was discovered that there had been a mitochondrial Eve, this was based on DNA-research among modern humans, her actual remains have not been found to this day so the scene takes place in the near future (it could even be tomorrow), not in 1987!
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

== Hera's Mate = Boxey? ==

From the notes section

''On the second Earth Hera's mate that produced children was most likely human. Saul Tigh and the Leobens would be too old for her. While it was fairly common in ancient times for the men to be far older than their brides (particularly with royalty), for example with the female being as young as 12 and and the male being say 60 to take an extreme, Colonial mores, which are much like our own in real life, would forbid the Leobens from sexual congress with Hera when she reach the accepted reproductive age. On the other hand there were many human children about her age and slightly older in the Fleet. She could had also had children with a human child unborn at the time of the landing on Second Earth perhaps within five years to ten years of her age. It is possible that other hybrid children could had been born after the landing given that the Twos, Sixes, and Eights joined the humans. And it is possible that pure Cylon children could had been born to the age compatible Sixes, Eights, and Leobens but as noted in the series it is difficult if not impossible for a pure Cylon child to come to term making any pool of pure Cylon children that were successfully born very small. Cylon-Human mating with a human male with a Six or a Sharon is very possible with the example of Hera herself an significantly more likely than with a Cylon-Cylon birth, but it is harder than with human-human pairings making any pool of those pairing while much more likely and larger than Cylon-Cylon offspring, still quite small number compared to pure human offspring. Therefore Hera's offspring is most likely with a human. A more remote possibility is with another Cylon-human hybrid. Her producing children with a pure Cylon offspring is the least likely since pure Cylons are the least likely to exist.''

Boxey could be Hera's mate. It would make sense.

Boxey as Y-chromosomal Adam? Or would that be "Adama"? heh--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: The chromosomal Adam live tens of thousands of years after the Mitochondrial Eve.

: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 17:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
::Walabio is right and why would it be more likely for Hera to end up with Boxey instead of with one of the other hundreds of children from the fleet?
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 18:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::The ''Y-chromosomal Adam'' reference was to make the pun based on Boxey being Apollo's adopted son in TOS :). As for why it would make sense, it be for no other reason that it would give the RDM version of the character some (belated) importance, which he lacked through the run of the show. Why have her end up with some random kid from the fleet than have her end up with a character who had some level of development? Plus, look at it this way, the original intent according to some references on this site say that the plan was to make Boxey, Tyrol, and Sharon (Boomer) a makeshift family. Having him end up with Hera accomplishes part of that intent as he'd be related to one version of Sharon (Athena)--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It is a moot point. He had NO relevant to BSG any more since they dropped him as a character. If they didn't drop him as a character I think the perfect end would had been making him that guy that was killed in the mutiny, you know the one that acted as a runner between CIC and some damaged area of the ship to get a damage report for Adama at the near the beginning of the mutiny? He was then later killed by Gaeta's trigger happy Marines when he pushed Adama to the deck, saving his life. That would had been a good way for Boxey to go. He would had been the right age (17) and would had gave his character an ultimate purpose, to save Adama when the time came.
::: Of course it is possible for Boxey and Hera to had gotten together. He would had been 14 years old when Hera was born but with Hera say 20 years old Boxey would had been 34, a reasonable age difference allowable in both our and Colonial Society. And further it would had been another of the shows many ironies and "what goes around, comes around" themes: Boxey, who was taken in by Boomer, an Eight as a quasi foster son, later marries the daughter of Athena, an Eight, who was stolen and then given back by Boomer who was then killed Athena. Imagine all the physiological turmoil that could case Boxey. This show thrived on that sort of thing. LOL [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

== Number Three ==

Couldn't they have sent a Raptor or an FTL-capable ship to find Number Three and bring her to the New Earth with them? It would have been the humane thing to do. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: She was left on a dead-to-humans world, where the only plant life we saw were grasses or other non-edibles, with a background radiation count above the safe level beyond short exposure: even the water was contaminated. She probably died within a few weeks of being left behind. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 12:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Good point. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It was established by Athena in [[The Passage]] that Cylons are far more resistant to radiation than humans are. In fact they bombed [[Caprica]] and the other Colonies with high yield nuclear weapons '''outside''' the cities so they could kill the humans but keep the buildings and infrastructure intact. We saw them settling in [[Caprica City]] in "[[Downloaded]]" even reopening the coffee shops, so radiation is of no problem to them (except for the rare special kind of Nebula radiation at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]) So it is possible for [[D'Anna Biers]] to survive the radiation of Earth One and even drink the rain water. Food on the other hand would be a problem and I saw no evidence of surviving animal life, and this all assumes that she wanted to survive, which I don't think she would due to staying on the radioactive rock in the first place. Still, it would had been a nice thing to try to find her. Maybe a miracle would had happened LOL. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 00:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

== "No Further Significant Revelations..."==

I think this statement in the advisory tag is premature. There's still "The Plan", as well as, in theory, the Caprica series, both of which might provide further revelations with regards to Daybreak and the series itself. Certainly The Plan, anyway. Not to mention the presumed deleted scenes that will be on the DVD and there's a rumor Daybreak will be extended for the DVD as well. There's still a chance for some issues to be resolved. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 13:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:That's interesting. I don't expect The Plan to reveal much of anything about what Kara became or who the Virtual beings were, but Caprica might explore it given the establishment that they appear at times when the cycle of time (machine on human violence) begins. Caprica might provide the answers to the lingering questions if for nothing more than to give fans of BSG a reason to watch. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::Let's hope so, though I don't expect they will reveal much more about the divine powers or the angels, ever. It would take away the mystery and the sense that there is something bigger than us (humans and cylons), now we are left wondering if the divine power is a God, or just a very advanced race (maybe the perpetrators (or their descendents) of the first holocaust during the first cycle are feeling guilty) and I think that's how Ron Moore intended it to be. However, ''Caprica'' may reveal more about colonial history: what happened to Kobol, how did humans move from Kobol to the colonies, why was that history almost completely forgotten (was there a colonial dark age) and who or what were the Lords of Kobol? --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:::I'm sure that many people would agree, or at least theorize, that the virtual beings are Moore's version of the beings of light from the Ship of Lights, especially considering what happened to Kara, which I've seen (here or elsewhere, I forget) compared to what happened to the Starbuck from the original series on the last episode of Galactica 80. I think that the reason why Moore must have decided to leave things vague is that he didn't want to "cheapen it" by introducing something like the Ship of Lights into his show, which was more realistic than the original version. Now that I think about it, when Baltar tells Six that "it" doesn't like to be called God, it could be that "it" is the Ship of Lights or whatever version of it that exist in this version of the story. It would be cool if there was more exploration of this in Caprica, as well as further exploration of the "jealous God" from Kobol (which I'm sure we'll hear more of due to this headmistress in Caprica who doesn't believe in the Lords of Kobol) and all the other lingering questions from the show. In fact, given that religion is an important aspect of Caprica as it was in BSG (RDM) I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more of this down the line. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 17:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::::Hi, guys. Here's my two cents, since I'm the Senior Chief that added the special notice. "No further significant revelations" means "the story is generally over." BSG isn't Star Trek, guys. RDM has stated that there are some elements of the story that he wouldn't resolve, but that he would resolve the important stuff. Is that etched in stone somewhere? No. I'm sure ''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'' may open a few new questions. But until that series debuts, what we have is what we have. Battlestar Wiki allows some speculation because we're talking about a work of fiction. But to speculate further when no further answers are likely and people are making what's otherwise original research--that's [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]], and it's not allowed on Battlestar Wiki. For the purposes of this episode summary because its so long (and must be), we have to keep focus and not overload the article. Episode summaries are the only articles where questions can be asked (provided they don't go out of control) but many questions will not be answered. As soon as the noise dies down we can move some pressing questions to [[BW:OC|our special Q&A page answered by BSG co-producer Bradley Thompson]]. In my opinion, the nature of the Virtual Beings and Kara have been answered as far as RDM wanted to do. They are beings of divine source--and folks, religion is one thing that RDM loved to keep close to his chest to add to the BSG mystique. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::::: I'm not saying that The Plan is going to answer all the unanswered questions, etc. However The Plan has been acknowledged as the coda for this series, and just as important to it as Razor was. However the special notice as I saw it wasn't just in reference to Daybreak, but to the Wiki in general, and that's where I think it's premature. In terms of Daybreak itself, I agree that any additional revelations in The Plan will likely be minor and there are unlikely to be any in Caprica at all relating to that particular episode. But I think questions that come to mind are still worth asking with regards to characters that could be addressed in The Plan. And unless someone has already seen The Plan, or RDM has explicitly stated otherwise, we can't really predict which characters may or may not be addressed. Something that might be interesting once The Plan airs and is analysed is to go through the episode articles and compile the outstanding questions that the series has left unanswered. I think there will be fewer than some think, with the remainder being just enough to put this series into the same league as "The Prisoner" in that people will still be arguing over "what does it mean" 40 years from now. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

== How did the fleet reach Earth 2 / New Earth? ==
As far as I understood it before Galactica departed for the Colony they agreed to a rendezvous location with the fleet. But when jumping away from the colony Starbuck punched in the numbers of the song and Galactica jumped for its last time. But when it reappeared over New Earth the fleet also jumped right in. How did they get the coordinates (a raptor jumping to the rendezvous location?)? But how did they get them so fast? [[User:DJ Doena|DJ Doena]] 14:02, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:Galactica still had a few raptors left (we saw 7 of them landed on Earth) and 12 hours passed between the shot of Galactica jumping near the Moon and the rest of the fleet showing up, nothing fishy going on there. --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::The key here was time pressure. Someone had the coordinates, but with the chaos of getting sucked into a black hole, no one could give them to Kara in time before ''Galactica's'' final jump. When all was stable, someone remembered/recalled the Fleet's coordinates, sent a Raptor, and all was good. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:You missed the letters onscreen spelling "Twelve Hours Later". -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Consolidation change ==

Hey everyone! I just wanted to take a moment to explain the format and consolidation change for Act I. This change is a test for updating the event summary because:

*Each detail does not require a bullet.
*Having bullets for every event make it look redundant.

*However, having bullets between major events makes the summary flow a little better. This was the approach I used when summarizing [[Daybreak, Part I]]. It gives each scene a sense of distinction, like this example.

Are there any other opinions regarding this proposed change? If it's OK, I can start work on the other acts. -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 20:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:Given the massive data, it's okay to condense a few points. But keep it to maybe three or four lines condensed. Any larger and it's hard to follow. Try to keep it looking like the other episode guides as much as possible for consistency. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for the working guideline. As of this writing, Act I & II are done, and starting on the rest. Hope you guys like it! -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 07:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

==The robot at the end==
I corrected an addition in Story Notes that suggested the female robot at the very end is the one that was unveiled only a few days before the broadcast. That would have been very cool, but it's actually the "Actroid" which was unveiled 4 years ago. Interestingly I found Actroid, a 4-year-old technology, to be more lifelike than the one unveiled last week... [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

==The model on the cover of "Sports Limited"==
Here's a challenge for those who watched this on HD sets... I've heard it suggested that the model on the cover of "Sports Limited" (the SI-like magazine seen on the newsstand) might actually be Tricia Helfer. I can't tell at all on the computer-screen I'm using, but it might be a neat bit of trivia (not to mention it would open a line of speculation as to whether the Sixes have survived to the present day) if it's true. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 16:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

== Questions Section ==

I can never be more blunt than I tried to be before on these last two guides. The questions sections follow strict rules [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions/Episode_Guides#Questions_Section]] is the policy on this section. I am going to again clear out the questions section with the bad stuff. Users who do not follow our polices on the [[BW:SAC]] will be warned and if after being warned by doing it again, will be banned. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 02:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== Lie-dector test "question" ==

In the Questions section, somebody asked:'' "During the lie detector test in the flashback scene of William Adama's attempt to secure a civilian job, why did the interrogator ask him if he was a Cylon?"''

This was a control question in order to get a baseline from which to compare the real questions for deception. Such as if a polygraph-operator were to ask "Are you a dinosaur?" This fact was made immediately clear in the dialogue. This was in no way left unclear. It's not a mystery. It's not even a debate.

I've deleted it.

== What year is it "question" ==

Another rediculous addition to the Questions section: ''"What year is it on Earth during the final scene?"''

That too was answered by the title: "150,000 Years Later". Go back 150,000 years from 2009 AD, and you have the answer: 148000 B.C.E.

I've deleted the question.

== Regarding my edits to Questions Section ==

I've removed these three questions:

* Why so many zeros in the Model 0005?
* Does either Battlestar Galactica TV series exist in some form on the new Earth?
* Who or what is God exactly?

The first two are completely and utterly ridiculous and do not have any merit as questions. They will never be answered, and it's simply beneath the scope of what questions should be in that section in the first place.

The third question has been pretty much answered in the series by Baltar, who is essentially the mouthpiece of the writers coda on that subject. In the universe of BSG, God is a force of nature who doesn't like the name "God." -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== Galactica breaking her back ==

Just noticed, Galactica made her final jump with her flight pods out, maybe thats what caused the damage? I mean the extra forces exerted on the ship because of the higher amount of ship to effect. It makes sense that Galactica jumping without her pods retracted would place extraordinary amount of stress on the ship. Every other time even when dropping through the atmosphere at New Caprica the Galactica always had her pods retracted fro a jump.
--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 08:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

:That could very well have been a contributing factor, but there are many other factors in play, too, namely
:*her age,
:*compromises made during construction,
:*accumulated stresses and fractures from past battle damage and the sheer number of jumps,
:*lack of proper dock repair and maintenance,
:*her last sustained pounding at close-range, and ramming into the Colony.
:And consider that Adama and Tigh were told that she only had a few more jumps in her before she suffers structural damage. The old girl was already falling apart.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 13:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I remember that one of the specialists told Adama that Galactica had 5 jumps left max, but nevermind it I just took notice of it and wanted to see what everyone else thought of it. EDIT: Also noticed that Glactica's flight pods went up and down of their own accord after the jump, maybe thats why they retract the pods? I think the Mercuries could non-retract jump because of the way their support struts are placed. By the looks of it the movement of the pods was absolutely massive and that kind of stress would most certainly break Galactica's back no matter what sort of structural damage she had before. --[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 07:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

:A suspension bridge's cables snap, and the road buckles. Overwhelming stresses on the road deform it, and the cables snap. A similar arguement can be made for the flight pods. There could have been torque forces on the pods, but the loss of lateral supports could have affected the ship's rigidity that caused the body to flex, which could also cause the flight pods to sway, too.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 07:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

==Cylon Longevity==

According to [[No Exit]], Ellen and the others created Cavil in the image of her father, so it stands to reason that, 40 years prior to the fall of the colonies, he was already a man in his 70'(s?) and in fact had not aged in those four decades. It can be assumed that the same holds true for the other six humanoid cylons, all of which were considerably younger than him.

The point here is, if humaoid Cylons don't age then the surviving Cylons who didn't make it to Earth wouldn't have died out as it has been speculated, be it from old age or lack of mates to reproduce with. Their longevity could surpass human longevity and they could be alive at the end of the series.

Furthermore there's the issue of boxing. They could have boxed themselves as a form of suspended animation to ensure their survival and programmed Guardian Centurions to watch over them.

All in all, there are many number of ways in which the humanoid Cylons that didn't make it to Earth could have survived. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit: Now that I think about it, what about the Cylons who did make it to Earth? If they don't age, how did they die out? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

: Perhaps aging was only a non-issue when they had resurrection tech. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::You mean, they did age but then transfered their conciousness to younger bodies? That's possible. What about the option to box their conciousness? They could still survive that way (sure, their bodies might die out without some form of suspended animation given that they are biological, but their conciousness could survive as 1s and 0s that could be downloaded into new bodies 150,000 years later). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Removed questions ==

I've removed the following questions:
* Who were/are the Lords of Kobol?
** Good question, but not one with any connection to this episode.
* What year is the present day?
** I'm not sure what this is asking. We are shown that the Colonial's present is 150 000 years before our own.
* Who is the dying leader? Laura Roslin? Galactica? Starbuck?
** The narrative gives us many explicit statements that it is Roslin, and she fits the role perfectly, making it unnecessary to try and jam someone else into the position. Doing so without clear indications from the show is speculation.
* What’s the deal with Kara Thrace?
** She was sent back by "God" as an angel to guide the people to the new Earth. Covered fairly conclusively, if not explicitly.
* What is the true nature of the Head People?
** They were angels, as was stated many times.
* Who or what is guiding events?
** Something akin to "God", though it doesn't like to be called that. I think this is covered sufficiently in the earlier question about why "God" is guiding events.
* Is Virtual Baltar really the archangel Gabriel? If not, is Virtual Leobon? (Assuming they're not actually the same being, that is.)
** Theory without basis in the show.
--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 23:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

== Parallel evolution ==

It is implausible scientifically that Earth humans and Colonials just happened to evolve in parallel without outside influence (possibly from the head beings). Therefore, I wouldn't state it as fact that they're alien to each other -- there is no support for that in the show. The facts are that they can mate and that the characters are surprised about humans existing on Earth, but I wouldn't go as far as drawing conclusions about the origins of Colonials and humans. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

:It could be that in the Galactica universe humans are the standard of life across the universe, which is why they never encountered other life forms during their travels. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:: I covered this on this very talkpage [[#The_Angels_Make_Life_In_This_Galaxy_Boringly_Homogenous. | here. ]] Basically, the [[Angel]]s guide evolution subtly by such means as dropping huge asteroids on the dinosaurs so that they can create dodos in their place. Because of these [[Angel]]s life is the same everywhere right down to identical pianofortes playing [[the Music | All Along The Watchtower. ]]

:: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 18:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::Most importantly, don't forget the suits and ties, which were reinvented by accident or through the collective unconscious. Back to the topic, though - all I'm saying is that the fact that Earth humans are primitive in that era does not necessarily imply that the Colonials evolved totally independently on Kobol and are therefore aliens, as the note in the article stated. No need to make such bold conclusions for the sake of "You know what that actualy means?"-type trivia; we know the visible facts, and they should be reported as such, and we know there is a LOT that we don't know about the head beings, which opens up any number of possibilities for future storytelling. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 20:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::"And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees" The Algae planet could have been terraformed by the 13th Tribe before they reached Earth (maybe they intended to settle there but then learned of the supernova and changed their minds, but not after they had terraformed the planet and built the temple). New Caprica had trees? Wasn't it mostly a desert? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::: I shall address the remarks of Graf Iblis, None Of Your Business, and Man of the Atom together:

::::: What Graf Iblis says could make sense:

::::: Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense.

::::: About the trees on New Caprica, trees on our Earth come in 3 shapes:

* - Cone-Shaped

* - Mushroom-Shaped

* - Palm-Tree-Shaped

::::: For all 3 shapes one can find both angiosperms and gymnosperms. For the Palm-Tree-shaped we even have some ferns too. Convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs probably can explain the trees looking alike.

::::: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 23:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::: If the same tree species, and foxes, and chickens, and so on, can evolve on different planets without terraforming, humans aren't a stretch. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: But the trees need not be the same species on New Caprica.. Indeed, they may have only a superficial resemblance to each other. Despite looking externally similar ichthyosaurs and sharks are very different. For foxes, pidgins, humans, et cetera to be on both Cobol and our Earth, the [[Angel]]s would have to stear biological evolution on both planets or scooped up these organisms on our Earth where we know for a fact they evolved and taken them to Cobol.

::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: And the Twelve Colonies, if humans didn't bring them from Kobol (and I doubt they did). -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 03:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: It was mine understanding that the Colonists brought life from Cobol and terraformed the 12 planets orbiting a few stars in an open star-cluster.

::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::: No one ever said this. Was it in the role-playing game? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: "Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense." It goes without saying that BSG left people wanting more. One thing I would like to know more about is who the Lords of Kobol were, what their relationship with the Angels/Messengers was, and who the jealous Lord that Elosha mentioned in "Kobol's Last Gleaming" was meant to be. Was he Iblis? Was he God? Was Iblis meant to be God? According to some text on the first season finale's page, RDM wanted Dirk Benedick to play Iblis and introduce himself to Baltar as God. Could this still happen? Did RDM change his mind and made God a "force of nature", or did Iblis/Jealous Lord EVOLVE into a force of nature? Is it that he (it?) doesn't like to be called God because he prefers to be called "Iblis"? Wasn't Iblis refered to as Lord in the original show? (Lord Iblis sounds right to me). Iblis as the one true God who orchestrated everything that happened to the Colonials and the Cylons... wouldn't that be a twist (just like Starbuck being a woman was a twist) on the original? Iblis goes from being Satan to being God... I HOPE that this is explored more deeply in Caprica... How could it NOT be given that it features a religious school, right? What else will those characters talk about if not Colonial theology and the Lords of Kobol (as well as the jealous Lord of Kobol). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: I doubt that Ronald D. Moore will ever directly answer these questions. He will probably just frak up our minds even more.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: There's a chance that RDM intended to answer these and other questions on BSG, but when the opportunity came to develop a spin off (Caprica) he could have made the choice to abandon these plots and focus on the survival aspect of the story instead and keep them to be developed later in Caprica. With characters like the teacher/nun who believes in the "one true God", locations like the Athena school (is is Athena? I forget), and the cult of religious believers that Zoe Graystone's boyfriend belongs to, there's considerable evidence to believe that these topics will be explored in the series, either as fully-developed plots or just casual conversation (i.e. dialogue spoken in a classroom, a conversation between this teacher/nun and maybe a younger Elosha in the school's quad)... It would stand to reason that given that Caprica seems to be more deeply rooted in the theology of BSG that it would explore these ideas, which might be why they stopped being an issue in BSG, which was more about finding Earth/a new world than in about discovering the "truth of God". --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 01:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: I always figured that it is just another crazy cult. On our Earth, people blow themselves up in the name of the one true god all of the time. The one true cylon-god is nothing more than the one true god of the cult of the of true god.

::::::::: Both Joseph Adams and William Adama are atheists. Lee Adama seems indifferent to religion. I wonder whether this is nature or nurture.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: It could be a result of their loosing their family in the explosion. It could be that Joseph decides that religion only results in hatred (it is religion that pushes Zoe's boyfriend into detonating the bomb). The question is in finding the link between the Cylon's worship of the one true God and the cult that Zoe's boyfriend belogns to. Why would Daniel Graystone instill religion into the Cylons? If not him, then who, how, and why? Is it Zoe's friend? Is it the teacher/nun? Is it Virtual Zoe? Why would any Graystone believe in the one true God whose followers caused the death of Zoe, Adama's sister and mother, and all those other people?... Speaking of Virtual Zoe, will she be connected to Virtual Six and Virtual Baltar? Is the one true God really a divine being (i.e. a Lord of Kobol), a "force of nature", or a man inside a space ship (a ship of lights, if you will) who uses Graystone's Cylon and Virtual echnologies to influence Colonial life (well, that might not track given that the messengers visited the 13th Colony 2000 years prior to the creation of the Cononial Cylons, but wouldn't it be cool if it did, heh?). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 13:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: The messengers saw Kobol and Earth as well as Caprica, so they can't be the product of Graystone technology. Right now, the best answer for the Centurions' monotheism is that they're Zoe's descendants. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-04-28T16:17:23Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Parallel evolution */

== Move ==
Why move this? The way I understand this, this is still episode 20, but it will be lengthened to actually be 3 episodes long. So in a away there are 21/22 episodes even, and not 19. However, [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/06/battlestars-fin.html This] says that the season will be 11 hours and not 12, but that doesn't mean that we need to get rid of episode 19 already. Especially given that the finale will probably air in at least 2 parts. So it makes some sense to have separate episodes guides for two airings. By production numbers this would be one episode, but split apart by airdate numbers. Maybe we should wait for some further clarification. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:It could be split up into 3 parts in reruns. I think it would be easier to start with a single article and then split as necessary after it airs. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::If Sci Fi is gonna pull a Miniseries and air this thing in two parts, we should pull a Miniseries too and have [[Miniseries, Night 1|separate]] [[Miniseries, Night 2|articles]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Which we can do after we know where the break point is. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 09:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to split the article at this time. We won't know how things will be aired until they're actually aired. All we know for now is that the finale's been extended... that's it. Creating two or three sections based on something we have absolutely very little information on is just... ill-advised. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 13:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:The proposal wasn't a split, but a merge with 419 I think (the article exists. It just isn't linked to, because it's an empty skeleton). But the result is the same. The way I understand it, 419+420 will be the finale then, with both episodes running 3 hours together (incl. ads I guess). We'll see. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::Ah, ok. Sounded like it would be a split, with at least one additional article, seeing as each article would cover an hour. Anyway, we don't have enough information to be certain; it's still really all up in the air, and they have now until doomsday to figure out how to release the thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

==Title==
''Daybreak, Part 2'' (and ''Part 3'') [http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/09/battlestar-galactica-cruise-book.html according to producer Mark Verheiden].--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 19:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE change the title of the page to Part II & Part III -- It is being sold on iTunes, Amazon, etc. and two completely different episodes and this actually screwed me up immensely because I ended up reading spoilers for Part 3 before I started watching it. Yes, this is how it aired, but it is not how it is being archived. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 13:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Analysis==
"Ronald D. Moore appears in a cameo as the man holding a National Geographic magazine in New York City. "

I think there is much more to it. Ronald D. Moore is appearing as himself reading that article because his knowledge of "Eve" influenced the series. In other words, the series is a result of the events depicted in the series. With that scene, Battlestar Galactica becomes part of Battlestar Galactica.

:This is impossibel since as of 2009 mitochondrial Eve's remains haven't been found yet, this scene is set in the future, after the series ended.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::Checkout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve. First articals apearred in 2003 ;)

It's not the same thing: we've known about mitochondrial Eve since before the series started, but her actual remains have not been found, there were never any bones of her found up to this day.
It's possible that Moore knowing about Eve's existence may have influenced the show, but he has never read an NGC article about the finding of her remains, simply because those remains haven't been found and thus never made their way into an NGC article.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Notes==

I recognised it immediately when watching the episode (and it's already on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_(Battlestar_Galactica)#Outside_references ), the "Kodiak" spacecraft from Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun can be seen among the fleet during this episode.

==(Un)answered questions)==

The following Ron Moore interview clears up some misunderstandings about the show: http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html

1) Kara Thrace's father was NOT the lost cylon Daniel.

2) The Missiles Racetrack's Raptor (accidentally) fires at the cylon colony were nukes that severely damaged the colony and made it fall from its stable orbit into the singularity (black hole) so the colony has been utterly destroyed.

3) The Earth which is discovered in this episode is not the same planet that was discovered in "Revelations." The Earth of "Revelations" was not the planet we now live on, but our Earth was named after it.

There are still a bunch of unanswered questions:

1) What is the nature of the divine power (although this was probably intentionally left unanswered.)

2) Who were the Lords of Kobol and what happened to that world?

3) How did the colonials get from Kobol to the colonies and if they were technologically advanced, how did they loose all knowledge of Kobol, save for some religious texts?

4) What happened to those who nuked the old Earth 2000 years ago, some of these victors would have survived, but they re never seen or heard from.

5) Why didn't Cavil and his cylons try to re-invent resurrection themselves as the technology wasn't that far ahead of them (it was re-invented by the final five on old-Earth in a civilization that hadn't even invented jump drives.)

6) How could the resurrection hub control all resurrection ships while there was never any mention of FTL-communication on the show and why wasn't the resurrection hub integrated into the colony rather than floating around in deep space, vulnerable and guarded by only 2 baseships.

7) Was the colony really the place where all cylons lived, was their civilization so small (and clearly no match for the colonial military before the holocaust) and are there no baseships left out there that still have cylons aboard who want to exact their revenge on humanity? They may die out like the article suggests, but there's nothing stopping them from taking Earth with them (provided they find it within their lifetime.)

8) What happened to the other rebel cylons? Was it just the 3 baseships that rebelled, and if not, where are the other 2's, 6's and 8's?

9) How did Lee get everyone to agree to give up technology (even medical)?

10) Had it not made more sense to build new cities on Earth and rebuild the advanced colonial civilization, when everyone understood how important equal treatment of cylons and humans is, instead of letting Earth's humans build their own civilization thousands of years later, humans who are likely to make the same old mistakes with artificial intelligence and repeat the cycle?

11) How come no intelligent alien life has ever been encountered by colonials or cylons in their histories, but when it finally happens these aliens are identical to humans, who somehow evolved separately from the Kobol humans? Somehow this amazing coincidence being an "act of God" seems like a rather unsatisfactory answer.

12) Since all the fleet's decisions after the Ellen's reapperarance have been about breaking the cycle, is Lee afraid that by having superior technology on earth the cylons and colonials would "enslave" the native population, creating yet another cycle?

-- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

:: He doesn't actually say that about Kara. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

You're right, I've edited my post. -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

: I'd still like to know the origin of Kara's pristine Viper from her resurrection or how she died going into a gas giant with her corpse resting on a planet light-years away. And what the deal is with the Centurions from "Razor" and the Hybrid they deified. And while I understand his prophesy, I'd like to know why the old Hybrid didn't want Kara to lead a new civilisation to Earth. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:36, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Her being sent back with a new viper was supposed to be an act of the divine power. I think the Razor centurions were explained as regular mutineers, they saw the first hybrid as some kind of prophet because of the way it talked and wanted to protect it from being scrapped. Seeing as how Kara was largely responsible for the end of Cylon civilization, except the few centurions that are still left, this explains why '''CYLON''" hybrids call her the harbinger of death (it was never stated she was the harbinger of death for humanity.) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Gully, as for question four the Thirteenth Tribe's Earth got nuked by their Centurions. From the surface, not from space. M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). The Final Five secretly built a ship and rebuilt resurrection (Which the 13th Tribe hadn't needed since first achieving reproduction on Kobol). That was how they escaped. -- [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 04:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: Alright, but being centurions the radiation wouldn't really hurt them, they could easily have created their own civilization after the dust settled (a bit like the machines in the "Terminator".) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Machines can be disabled by radiation, and the impacts themselves would have destroyed the Centurions. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

From the article: “Since the notes of All Along the Watchtower lead to Earth, do they still serve a purpose on Earth?” answer: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen_(film) yes]. -- [[User:LaloMartins|LaloMartins]] 12:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Regarding point six, in [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]], it was stated that, when the [[Resurrection Hub]] jumps, it transmits its' new location to the [[Hybrid]]s, so FTL communication technology definitely exists. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Adding a question on, the CGI Raptor launched ''16'' missiles, why were only 8 shown after the launch scene?--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 06:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

==== What Precisely Killed [[Margaret Edmondson|Racetrack]] and [[Hamish McCall|Skulls]]? ====

The Marines in the rear of the cabin were killed by explosive decompression and vacuum exposure, but Racetrack and Skulls were in sealed pressure suits. I don't recall seeing suit damage in that quick shot of Margaret's hand falling on the missile-launch button. Did the one penetrating rock cause invisible crushing injuries to both of them? It didn't look big enough to hit both of them square on. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 08:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:Skulls whas hit in his face or chest by the rock and there was a small hole in Racetrack's helmet when her hand fell on the button.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

==== [[Delphi]] ====

In the episode "[[Downloaded]]" the cylons were rebuilding the Caprican city of [[Delphi]] and living in it. Was this effort completely abandoned when the Cylons decided to occupy [[New Caprica]]? Or has the effort to recover [[Caprica_(RDM)|Caprica]] continued all this time and is it still occupied? Are there still a substantial number of human-Cylons living on Caprica? Will it become like first Earth before their holocaust, an entirely Cylon-populated society? Are any humans stragglers left alive on either Caprica or New Caprica? -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 09:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:They likely did leave the colonies after [[Downloaded]], there may still be some baseships out there, but the cylons on them are aging and cannot procreate. Even if they found Earth within their lifetimes a handful of basestars probably don't have enough nukes to obliterate the Earth's surface, that is assuming they'll actually know humans are living on Earth: it's pretty hard to find a stone age culture or neolithic society from space, even when you're actively looking for them (sure the colonials found one tribe, but in order to kill all humans with a limited number of nukes you'd have to know the positions of every tribe on Earth.)
There may be human survivors left on the colonies but it's unlikely: sure, they may have survived the nukes and the radiation, but the cylons actively hunted them down, probably to populations too small to repopulate the planets.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== The Angels Make Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. ''

----
From Act 10 section of article: "(This is in the year 1987 AD.)" How can it be 1987 when the flat panel TV clearly showed MSNBC logo at the bottom? MSNBC was created in 1996.--[[User:Steven512|Steven512]] 14:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Yes, the robots you see in this scene were also developed after 1987 and as far as I know the remains of mitochondrial Eve have never been found.
In 1987 it was discovered that there had been a mitochondrial Eve, this was based on DNA-research among modern humans, her actual remains have not been found to this day so the scene takes place in the near future (it could even be tomorrow), not in 1987!
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

== Hera's Mate = Boxey? ==

From the notes section

''On the second Earth Hera's mate that produced children was most likely human. Saul Tigh and the Leobens would be too old for her. While it was fairly common in ancient times for the men to be far older than their brides (particularly with royalty), for example with the female being as young as 12 and and the male being say 60 to take an extreme, Colonial mores, which are much like our own in real life, would forbid the Leobens from sexual congress with Hera when she reach the accepted reproductive age. On the other hand there were many human children about her age and slightly older in the Fleet. She could had also had children with a human child unborn at the time of the landing on Second Earth perhaps within five years to ten years of her age. It is possible that other hybrid children could had been born after the landing given that the Twos, Sixes, and Eights joined the humans. And it is possible that pure Cylon children could had been born to the age compatible Sixes, Eights, and Leobens but as noted in the series it is difficult if not impossible for a pure Cylon child to come to term making any pool of pure Cylon children that were successfully born very small. Cylon-Human mating with a human male with a Six or a Sharon is very possible with the example of Hera herself an significantly more likely than with a Cylon-Cylon birth, but it is harder than with human-human pairings making any pool of those pairing while much more likely and larger than Cylon-Cylon offspring, still quite small number compared to pure human offspring. Therefore Hera's offspring is most likely with a human. A more remote possibility is with another Cylon-human hybrid. Her producing children with a pure Cylon offspring is the least likely since pure Cylons are the least likely to exist.''

Boxey could be Hera's mate. It would make sense.

Boxey as Y-chromosomal Adam? Or would that be "Adama"? heh--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: The chromosomal Adam live tens of thousands of years after the Mitochondrial Eve.

: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 17:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
::Walabio is right and why would it be more likely for Hera to end up with Boxey instead of with one of the other hundreds of children from the fleet?
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 18:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::The ''Y-chromosomal Adam'' reference was to make the pun based on Boxey being Apollo's adopted son in TOS :). As for why it would make sense, it be for no other reason that it would give the RDM version of the character some (belated) importance, which he lacked through the run of the show. Why have her end up with some random kid from the fleet than have her end up with a character who had some level of development? Plus, look at it this way, the original intent according to some references on this site say that the plan was to make Boxey, Tyrol, and Sharon (Boomer) a makeshift family. Having him end up with Hera accomplishes part of that intent as he'd be related to one version of Sharon (Athena)--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It is a moot point. He had NO relevant to BSG any more since they dropped him as a character. If they didn't drop him as a character I think the perfect end would had been making him that guy that was killed in the mutiny, you know the one that acted as a runner between CIC and some damaged area of the ship to get a damage report for Adama at the near the beginning of the mutiny? He was then later killed by Gaeta's trigger happy Marines when he pushed Adama to the deck, saving his life. That would had been a good way for Boxey to go. He would had been the right age (17) and would had gave his character an ultimate purpose, to save Adama when the time came.
::: Of course it is possible for Boxey and Hera to had gotten together. He would had been 14 years old when Hera was born but with Hera say 20 years old Boxey would had been 34, a reasonable age difference allowable in both our and Colonial Society. And further it would had been another of the shows many ironies and "what goes around, comes around" themes: Boxey, who was taken in by Boomer, an Eight as a quasi foster son, later marries the daughter of Athena, an Eight, who was stolen and then given back by Boomer who was then killed Athena. Imagine all the physiological turmoil that could case Boxey. This show thrived on that sort of thing. LOL [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

== Number Three ==

Couldn't they have sent a Raptor or an FTL-capable ship to find Number Three and bring her to the New Earth with them? It would have been the humane thing to do. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: She was left on a dead-to-humans world, where the only plant life we saw were grasses or other non-edibles, with a background radiation count above the safe level beyond short exposure: even the water was contaminated. She probably died within a few weeks of being left behind. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 12:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Good point. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It was established by Athena in [[The Passage]] that Cylons are far more resistant to radiation than humans are. In fact they bombed [[Caprica]] and the other Colonies with high yield nuclear weapons '''outside''' the cities so they could kill the humans but keep the buildings and infrastructure intact. We saw them settling in [[Caprica City]] in "[[Downloaded]]" even reopening the coffee shops, so radiation is of no problem to them (except for the rare special kind of Nebula radiation at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]) So it is possible for [[D'Anna Biers]] to survive the radiation of Earth One and even drink the rain water. Food on the other hand would be a problem and I saw no evidence of surviving animal life, and this all assumes that she wanted to survive, which I don't think she would due to staying on the radioactive rock in the first place. Still, it would had been a nice thing to try to find her. Maybe a miracle would had happened LOL. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 00:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

== "No Further Significant Revelations..."==

I think this statement in the advisory tag is premature. There's still "The Plan", as well as, in theory, the Caprica series, both of which might provide further revelations with regards to Daybreak and the series itself. Certainly The Plan, anyway. Not to mention the presumed deleted scenes that will be on the DVD and there's a rumor Daybreak will be extended for the DVD as well. There's still a chance for some issues to be resolved. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 13:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:That's interesting. I don't expect The Plan to reveal much of anything about what Kara became or who the Virtual beings were, but Caprica might explore it given the establishment that they appear at times when the cycle of time (machine on human violence) begins. Caprica might provide the answers to the lingering questions if for nothing more than to give fans of BSG a reason to watch. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::Let's hope so, though I don't expect they will reveal much more about the divine powers or the angels, ever. It would take away the mystery and the sense that there is something bigger than us (humans and cylons), now we are left wondering if the divine power is a God, or just a very advanced race (maybe the perpetrators (or their descendents) of the first holocaust during the first cycle are feeling guilty) and I think that's how Ron Moore intended it to be. However, ''Caprica'' may reveal more about colonial history: what happened to Kobol, how did humans move from Kobol to the colonies, why was that history almost completely forgotten (was there a colonial dark age) and who or what were the Lords of Kobol? --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:::I'm sure that many people would agree, or at least theorize, that the virtual beings are Moore's version of the beings of light from the Ship of Lights, especially considering what happened to Kara, which I've seen (here or elsewhere, I forget) compared to what happened to the Starbuck from the original series on the last episode of Galactica 80. I think that the reason why Moore must have decided to leave things vague is that he didn't want to "cheapen it" by introducing something like the Ship of Lights into his show, which was more realistic than the original version. Now that I think about it, when Baltar tells Six that "it" doesn't like to be called God, it could be that "it" is the Ship of Lights or whatever version of it that exist in this version of the story. It would be cool if there was more exploration of this in Caprica, as well as further exploration of the "jealous God" from Kobol (which I'm sure we'll hear more of due to this headmistress in Caprica who doesn't believe in the Lords of Kobol) and all the other lingering questions from the show. In fact, given that religion is an important aspect of Caprica as it was in BSG (RDM) I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more of this down the line. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 17:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::::Hi, guys. Here's my two cents, since I'm the Senior Chief that added the special notice. "No further significant revelations" means "the story is generally over." BSG isn't Star Trek, guys. RDM has stated that there are some elements of the story that he wouldn't resolve, but that he would resolve the important stuff. Is that etched in stone somewhere? No. I'm sure ''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'' may open a few new questions. But until that series debuts, what we have is what we have. Battlestar Wiki allows some speculation because we're talking about a work of fiction. But to speculate further when no further answers are likely and people are making what's otherwise original research--that's [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]], and it's not allowed on Battlestar Wiki. For the purposes of this episode summary because its so long (and must be), we have to keep focus and not overload the article. Episode summaries are the only articles where questions can be asked (provided they don't go out of control) but many questions will not be answered. As soon as the noise dies down we can move some pressing questions to [[BW:OC|our special Q&A page answered by BSG co-producer Bradley Thompson]]. In my opinion, the nature of the Virtual Beings and Kara have been answered as far as RDM wanted to do. They are beings of divine source--and folks, religion is one thing that RDM loved to keep close to his chest to add to the BSG mystique. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::::: I'm not saying that The Plan is going to answer all the unanswered questions, etc. However The Plan has been acknowledged as the coda for this series, and just as important to it as Razor was. However the special notice as I saw it wasn't just in reference to Daybreak, but to the Wiki in general, and that's where I think it's premature. In terms of Daybreak itself, I agree that any additional revelations in The Plan will likely be minor and there are unlikely to be any in Caprica at all relating to that particular episode. But I think questions that come to mind are still worth asking with regards to characters that could be addressed in The Plan. And unless someone has already seen The Plan, or RDM has explicitly stated otherwise, we can't really predict which characters may or may not be addressed. Something that might be interesting once The Plan airs and is analysed is to go through the episode articles and compile the outstanding questions that the series has left unanswered. I think there will be fewer than some think, with the remainder being just enough to put this series into the same league as "The Prisoner" in that people will still be arguing over "what does it mean" 40 years from now. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

== How did the fleet reach Earth 2 / New Earth? ==
As far as I understood it before Galactica departed for the Colony they agreed to a rendezvous location with the fleet. But when jumping away from the colony Starbuck punched in the numbers of the song and Galactica jumped for its last time. But when it reappeared over New Earth the fleet also jumped right in. How did they get the coordinates (a raptor jumping to the rendezvous location?)? But how did they get them so fast? [[User:DJ Doena|DJ Doena]] 14:02, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:Galactica still had a few raptors left (we saw 7 of them landed on Earth) and 12 hours passed between the shot of Galactica jumping near the Moon and the rest of the fleet showing up, nothing fishy going on there. --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::The key here was time pressure. Someone had the coordinates, but with the chaos of getting sucked into a black hole, no one could give them to Kara in time before ''Galactica's'' final jump. When all was stable, someone remembered/recalled the Fleet's coordinates, sent a Raptor, and all was good. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:You missed the letters onscreen spelling "Twelve Hours Later". -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Consolidation change ==

Hey everyone! I just wanted to take a moment to explain the format and consolidation change for Act I. This change is a test for updating the event summary because:

*Each detail does not require a bullet.
*Having bullets for every event make it look redundant.

*However, having bullets between major events makes the summary flow a little better. This was the approach I used when summarizing [[Daybreak, Part I]]. It gives each scene a sense of distinction, like this example.

Are there any other opinions regarding this proposed change? If it's OK, I can start work on the other acts. -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 20:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:Given the massive data, it's okay to condense a few points. But keep it to maybe three or four lines condensed. Any larger and it's hard to follow. Try to keep it looking like the other episode guides as much as possible for consistency. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for the working guideline. As of this writing, Act I & II are done, and starting on the rest. Hope you guys like it! -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 07:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

==The robot at the end==
I corrected an addition in Story Notes that suggested the female robot at the very end is the one that was unveiled only a few days before the broadcast. That would have been very cool, but it's actually the "Actroid" which was unveiled 4 years ago. Interestingly I found Actroid, a 4-year-old technology, to be more lifelike than the one unveiled last week... [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

==The model on the cover of "Sports Limited"==
Here's a challenge for those who watched this on HD sets... I've heard it suggested that the model on the cover of "Sports Limited" (the SI-like magazine seen on the newsstand) might actually be Tricia Helfer. I can't tell at all on the computer-screen I'm using, but it might be a neat bit of trivia (not to mention it would open a line of speculation as to whether the Sixes have survived to the present day) if it's true. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 16:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

== Questions Section ==

I can never be more blunt than I tried to be before on these last two guides. The questions sections follow strict rules [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions/Episode_Guides#Questions_Section]] is the policy on this section. I am going to again clear out the questions section with the bad stuff. Users who do not follow our polices on the [[BW:SAC]] will be warned and if after being warned by doing it again, will be banned. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 02:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== Lie-dector test "question" ==

In the Questions section, somebody asked:'' "During the lie detector test in the flashback scene of William Adama's attempt to secure a civilian job, why did the interrogator ask him if he was a Cylon?"''

This was a control question in order to get a baseline from which to compare the real questions for deception. Such as if a polygraph-operator were to ask "Are you a dinosaur?" This fact was made immediately clear in the dialogue. This was in no way left unclear. It's not a mystery. It's not even a debate.

I've deleted it.

== What year is it "question" ==

Another rediculous addition to the Questions section: ''"What year is it on Earth during the final scene?"''

That too was answered by the title: "150,000 Years Later". Go back 150,000 years from 2009 AD, and you have the answer: 148000 B.C.E.

I've deleted the question.

== Regarding my edits to Questions Section ==

I've removed these three questions:

* Why so many zeros in the Model 0005?
* Does either Battlestar Galactica TV series exist in some form on the new Earth?
* Who or what is God exactly?

The first two are completely and utterly ridiculous and do not have any merit as questions. They will never be answered, and it's simply beneath the scope of what questions should be in that section in the first place.

The third question has been pretty much answered in the series by Baltar, who is essentially the mouthpiece of the writers coda on that subject. In the universe of BSG, God is a force of nature who doesn't like the name "God." -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== Galactica breaking her back ==

Just noticed, Galactica made her final jump with her flight pods out, maybe thats what caused the damage? I mean the extra forces exerted on the ship because of the higher amount of ship to effect. It makes sense that Galactica jumping without her pods retracted would place extraordinary amount of stress on the ship. Every other time even when dropping through the atmosphere at New Caprica the Galactica always had her pods retracted fro a jump.
--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 08:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

:That could very well have been a contributing factor, but there are many other factors in play, too, namely
:*her age,
:*compromises made during construction,
:*accumulated stresses and fractures from past battle damage and the sheer number of jumps,
:*lack of proper dock repair and maintenance,
:*her last sustained pounding at close-range, and ramming into the Colony.
:And consider that Adama and Tigh were told that she only had a few more jumps in her before she suffers structural damage. The old girl was already falling apart.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 13:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I remember that one of the specialists told Adama that Galactica had 5 jumps left max, but nevermind it I just took notice of it and wanted to see what everyone else thought of it. EDIT: Also noticed that Glactica's flight pods went up and down of their own accord after the jump, maybe thats why they retract the pods? I think the Mercuries could non-retract jump because of the way their support struts are placed. By the looks of it the movement of the pods was absolutely massive and that kind of stress would most certainly break Galactica's back no matter what sort of structural damage she had before. --[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 07:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

:A suspension bridge's cables snap, and the road buckles. Overwhelming stresses on the road deform it, and the cables snap. A similar arguement can be made for the flight pods. There could have been torque forces on the pods, but the loss of lateral supports could have affected the ship's rigidity that caused the body to flex, which could also cause the flight pods to sway, too.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 07:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

==Cylon Longevity==

According to [[No Exit]], Ellen and the others created Cavil in the image of her father, so it stands to reason that, 40 years prior to the fall of the colonies, he was already a man in his 70'(s?) and in fact had not aged in those four decades. It can be assumed that the same holds true for the other six humanoid cylons, all of which were considerably younger than him.

The point here is, if humaoid Cylons don't age then the surviving Cylons who didn't make it to Earth wouldn't have died out as it has been speculated, be it from old age or lack of mates to reproduce with. Their longevity could surpass human longevity and they could be alive at the end of the series.

Furthermore there's the issue of boxing. They could have boxed themselves as a form of suspended animation to ensure their survival and programmed Guardian Centurions to watch over them.

All in all, there are many number of ways in which the humanoid Cylons that didn't make it to Earth could have survived. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit: Now that I think about it, what about the Cylons who did make it to Earth? If they don't age, how did they die out? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

: Perhaps aging was only a non-issue when they had resurrection tech. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::You mean, they did age but then transfered their conciousness to younger bodies? That's possible. What about the option to box their conciousness? They could still survive that way (sure, their bodies might die out without some form of suspended animation given that they are biological, but their conciousness could survive as 1s and 0s that could be downloaded into new bodies 150,000 years later). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Removed questions ==

I've removed the following questions:
* Who were/are the Lords of Kobol?
** Good question, but not one with any connection to this episode.
* What year is the present day?
** I'm not sure what this is asking. We are shown that the Colonial's present is 150 000 years before our own.
* Who is the dying leader? Laura Roslin? Galactica? Starbuck?
** The narrative gives us many explicit statements that it is Roslin, and she fits the role perfectly, making it unnecessary to try and jam someone else into the position. Doing so without clear indications from the show is speculation.
* What’s the deal with Kara Thrace?
** She was sent back by "God" as an angel to guide the people to the new Earth. Covered fairly conclusively, if not explicitly.
* What is the true nature of the Head People?
** They were angels, as was stated many times.
* Who or what is guiding events?
** Something akin to "God", though it doesn't like to be called that. I think this is covered sufficiently in the earlier question about why "God" is guiding events.
* Is Virtual Baltar really the archangel Gabriel? If not, is Virtual Leobon? (Assuming they're not actually the same being, that is.)
** Theory without basis in the show.
--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 23:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

== Parallel evolution ==

It is implausible scientifically that Earth humans and Colonials just happened to evolve in parallel without outside influence (possibly from the head beings). Therefore, I wouldn't state it as fact that they're alien to each other -- there is no support for that in the show. The facts are that they can mate and that the characters are surprised about humans existing on Earth, but I wouldn't go as far as drawing conclusions about the origins of Colonials and humans. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

:It could be that in the Galactica universe humans are the standard of life across the universe, which is why they never encountered other life forms during their travels. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:: I covered this on this very talkpage [[#The_Angels_Make_Life_In_This_Galaxy_Boringly_Homogenous. | here. ]] Basically, the [[Angel]]s guide evolution subtly by such means as dropping huge asteroids on the dinosaurs so that they can create dodos in their place. Because of these [[Angel]]s life is the same everywhere right down to identical pianofortes playing [[the Music | All Along The Watchtower. ]]

:: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 18:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::Most importantly, don't forget the suits and ties, which were reinvented by accident or through the collective unconscious. Back to the topic, though - all I'm saying is that the fact that Earth humans are primitive in that era does not necessarily imply that the Colonials evolved totally independently on Kobol and are therefore aliens, as the note in the article stated. No need to make such bold conclusions for the sake of "You know what that actualy means?"-type trivia; we know the visible facts, and they should be reported as such, and we know there is a LOT that we don't know about the head beings, which opens up any number of possibilities for future storytelling. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 20:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::"And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees" The Algae planet could have been terraformed by the 13th Tribe before they reached Earth (maybe they intended to settle there but then learned of the supernova and changed their minds, but not after they had terraformed the planet and built the temple). New Caprica had trees? Wasn't it mostly a desert? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::: I shall address the remarks of Graf Iblis, None Of Your Business, and Man of the Atom together:

::::: What Graf Iblis says could make sense:

::::: Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense.

::::: About the trees on New Caprica, trees on our Earth come in 3 shapes:

* - Cone-Shaped

* - Mushroom-Shaped

* - Palm-Tree-Shaped

::::: For all 3 shapes one can find both angiosperms and gymnosperms. For the Palm-Tree-shaped we even have some ferns too. Convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs probably can explain the trees looking alike.

::::: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 23:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::: If the same tree species, and foxes, and chickens, and so on, can evolve on different planets without terraforming, humans aren't a stretch. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: But the trees need not be the same species on New Caprica.. Indeed, they may have only a superficial resemblance to each other. Despite looking externally similar ichthyosaurs and sharks are very different. For foxes, pidgins, humans, et cetera to be on both Cobol and our Earth, the [[Angel]]s would have to stear biological evolution on both planets or scooped up these organisms on our Earth where we know for a fact they evolved and taken them to Cobol.

::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: And the Twelve Colonies, if humans didn't bring them from Kobol (and I doubt they did). -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 03:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: It was mine understanding that the Colonists brought life from Cobol and terraformed the 12 planets orbiting a few stars in an open star-cluster.

::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::: No one ever said this. Was it in the role-playing game? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: "Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense." It goes without saying that BSG left people wanting more. One thing I would like to know more about is who the Lords of Kobol were, what their relationship with the Angels/Messengers was, and who the jealous Lord that Elosha mentioned in "Kobol's Last Gleaming" was meant to be. Was he Iblis? Was he God? Was Iblis meant to be God? According to some text on the first season finale's page, RDM wanted Dirk Benedick to play Iblis and introduce himself to Baltar as God. Could this still happen? Did RDM change his mind and made God a "force of nature", or did Iblis/Jealous Lord EVOLVE into a force of nature? Is it that he (it?) doesn't like to be called God because he prefers to be called "Iblis"? Wasn't Iblis refered to as Lord in the original show? (Lord Iblis sounds right to me). Iblis as the one true God who orchestrated everything that happened to the Colonials and the Cylons... wouldn't that be a twist (just like Starbuck being a woman was a twist) on the original? Iblis goes from being Satan to being God... I HOPE that this is explored more deeply in Caprica... How could it NOT be given that it features a religious school, right? What else will those characters talk about if not Colonial theology and the Lords of Kobol (as well as the jealous Lord of Kobol). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: I doubt that Ronald D. Moore will ever directly answer these questions. He will probably just frak up our minds even more.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: There's a chance that RDM intended to answer these and other questions on BSG, but when the opportunity came to develop a spin off (Caprica) he could have made the choice to abandon these plots and focus on the survival aspect of the story instead and keep them to be developed later in Caprica. With characters like the teacher/nun who believes in the "one true God", locations like the Athena school (is is Athena? I forget), and the cult of religious believers that Zoe Graystone's boyfriend belongs to, there's considerable evidence to believe that these topics will be explored in the series, either as fully-developed plots or just casual conversation (i.e. dialogue spoken in a classroom, a conversation between this teacher/nun and maybe a younger Elosha in the school's quad)... It would stand to reason that given that Caprica seems to be more deeply rooted in the theology of BSG that it would explore these ideas, which might be why they stopped being an issue in BSG, which was more about finding Earth/a new world than in about discovering the "truth of God". --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 01:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: I always figured that it is just another crazy cult. On our Earth, people blow themselves up in the name of the one true god all of the time. The one true cylon-god is nothing more than the one true god of the cult of the of true god.

::::::::: Both Joseph Adams and William Adama are atheists. Lee Adama seems indifferent to religion. I wonder whether this is nature or nurture.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: It could be a result of their loosing their family in the explosion. It could be that Joseph decides that religion only results in hatred (it is religion that pushes Zoe's boyfriend into detonating the bomb). The question is in finding the link between the Cylon's worship of the one true God and the cult that Zoe's boyfriend belogns to. Why would Daniel Graystone instill religion into the Cylons? If not him, then who, how, and why? Is it Zoe's friend? Is it the teacher/nun? Is it Virtual Zoe? Why would any Graystone believe in the one true God whose followers caused the death of Zoe, Adama's sister and mother, and all those other people?... Speaking of Virtual Zoe, will she be connected to Virtual Six and Virtual Baltar? Is the one true God really a divine being (i.e. a Lord of Kobol), a "force of nature", or a man inside a space ship (a ship of lights, if you will) who uses Graystone's Cylon and Virtual echnologies to influence Colonial life (well, that might not track given that the messengers visited the 13th Colony 2000 years prior to the creation of the Cononial Cylons, but wouldn't it be cool if it did, heh?). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 13:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: The messengers saw Kobol and Earth as well as Caprica, so they can't be the product of Graystone technology. Right now, the best answer for the Centurions' monotheism is that they're Zoe's descendants. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: They could still be linked somehow. Not in that they came from Graystone's tech, but it could be viceversa, that the tech came from them (or inspired Graystone). Doesn't the mythology go that the messengers appear when the cycle of violence begins? Well, doesn't the creation of the Cylons count as the start of the cycle? That's the point of Caprica, isn't it? To serve as a prelude to the fall of the colonies? There's a myriad of events that took place prior to the event that the show could explore, the creation of the Cylons is just one of them. Who knows, maybe one of the messengers will visit Graystone or Adama (though not necessarily Six and Baltar). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 16:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-04-28T13:12:56Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Parallel evolution */

== Move ==
Why move this? The way I understand this, this is still episode 20, but it will be lengthened to actually be 3 episodes long. So in a away there are 21/22 episodes even, and not 19. However, [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/06/battlestars-fin.html This] says that the season will be 11 hours and not 12, but that doesn't mean that we need to get rid of episode 19 already. Especially given that the finale will probably air in at least 2 parts. So it makes some sense to have separate episodes guides for two airings. By production numbers this would be one episode, but split apart by airdate numbers. Maybe we should wait for some further clarification. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:It could be split up into 3 parts in reruns. I think it would be easier to start with a single article and then split as necessary after it airs. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::If Sci Fi is gonna pull a Miniseries and air this thing in two parts, we should pull a Miniseries too and have [[Miniseries, Night 1|separate]] [[Miniseries, Night 2|articles]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Which we can do after we know where the break point is. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 09:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to split the article at this time. We won't know how things will be aired until they're actually aired. All we know for now is that the finale's been extended... that's it. Creating two or three sections based on something we have absolutely very little information on is just... ill-advised. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 13:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:The proposal wasn't a split, but a merge with 419 I think (the article exists. It just isn't linked to, because it's an empty skeleton). But the result is the same. The way I understand it, 419+420 will be the finale then, with both episodes running 3 hours together (incl. ads I guess). We'll see. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::Ah, ok. Sounded like it would be a split, with at least one additional article, seeing as each article would cover an hour. Anyway, we don't have enough information to be certain; it's still really all up in the air, and they have now until doomsday to figure out how to release the thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

==Title==
''Daybreak, Part 2'' (and ''Part 3'') [http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/09/battlestar-galactica-cruise-book.html according to producer Mark Verheiden].--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 19:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE change the title of the page to Part II & Part III -- It is being sold on iTunes, Amazon, etc. and two completely different episodes and this actually screwed me up immensely because I ended up reading spoilers for Part 3 before I started watching it. Yes, this is how it aired, but it is not how it is being archived. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 13:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Analysis==
"Ronald D. Moore appears in a cameo as the man holding a National Geographic magazine in New York City. "

I think there is much more to it. Ronald D. Moore is appearing as himself reading that article because his knowledge of "Eve" influenced the series. In other words, the series is a result of the events depicted in the series. With that scene, Battlestar Galactica becomes part of Battlestar Galactica.

:This is impossibel since as of 2009 mitochondrial Eve's remains haven't been found yet, this scene is set in the future, after the series ended.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::Checkout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve. First articals apearred in 2003 ;)

It's not the same thing: we've known about mitochondrial Eve since before the series started, but her actual remains have not been found, there were never any bones of her found up to this day.
It's possible that Moore knowing about Eve's existence may have influenced the show, but he has never read an NGC article about the finding of her remains, simply because those remains haven't been found and thus never made their way into an NGC article.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Notes==

I recognised it immediately when watching the episode (and it's already on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_(Battlestar_Galactica)#Outside_references ), the "Kodiak" spacecraft from Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun can be seen among the fleet during this episode.

==(Un)answered questions)==

The following Ron Moore interview clears up some misunderstandings about the show: http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html

1) Kara Thrace's father was NOT the lost cylon Daniel.

2) The Missiles Racetrack's Raptor (accidentally) fires at the cylon colony were nukes that severely damaged the colony and made it fall from its stable orbit into the singularity (black hole) so the colony has been utterly destroyed.

3) The Earth which is discovered in this episode is not the same planet that was discovered in "Revelations." The Earth of "Revelations" was not the planet we now live on, but our Earth was named after it.

There are still a bunch of unanswered questions:

1) What is the nature of the divine power (although this was probably intentionally left unanswered.)

2) Who were the Lords of Kobol and what happened to that world?

3) How did the colonials get from Kobol to the colonies and if they were technologically advanced, how did they loose all knowledge of Kobol, save for some religious texts?

4) What happened to those who nuked the old Earth 2000 years ago, some of these victors would have survived, but they re never seen or heard from.

5) Why didn't Cavil and his cylons try to re-invent resurrection themselves as the technology wasn't that far ahead of them (it was re-invented by the final five on old-Earth in a civilization that hadn't even invented jump drives.)

6) How could the resurrection hub control all resurrection ships while there was never any mention of FTL-communication on the show and why wasn't the resurrection hub integrated into the colony rather than floating around in deep space, vulnerable and guarded by only 2 baseships.

7) Was the colony really the place where all cylons lived, was their civilization so small (and clearly no match for the colonial military before the holocaust) and are there no baseships left out there that still have cylons aboard who want to exact their revenge on humanity? They may die out like the article suggests, but there's nothing stopping them from taking Earth with them (provided they find it within their lifetime.)

8) What happened to the other rebel cylons? Was it just the 3 baseships that rebelled, and if not, where are the other 2's, 6's and 8's?

9) How did Lee get everyone to agree to give up technology (even medical)?

10) Had it not made more sense to build new cities on Earth and rebuild the advanced colonial civilization, when everyone understood how important equal treatment of cylons and humans is, instead of letting Earth's humans build their own civilization thousands of years later, humans who are likely to make the same old mistakes with artificial intelligence and repeat the cycle?

11) How come no intelligent alien life has ever been encountered by colonials or cylons in their histories, but when it finally happens these aliens are identical to humans, who somehow evolved separately from the Kobol humans? Somehow this amazing coincidence being an "act of God" seems like a rather unsatisfactory answer.

12) Since all the fleet's decisions after the Ellen's reapperarance have been about breaking the cycle, is Lee afraid that by having superior technology on earth the cylons and colonials would "enslave" the native population, creating yet another cycle?

-- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

:: He doesn't actually say that about Kara. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

You're right, I've edited my post. -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

: I'd still like to know the origin of Kara's pristine Viper from her resurrection or how she died going into a gas giant with her corpse resting on a planet light-years away. And what the deal is with the Centurions from "Razor" and the Hybrid they deified. And while I understand his prophesy, I'd like to know why the old Hybrid didn't want Kara to lead a new civilisation to Earth. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:36, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Her being sent back with a new viper was supposed to be an act of the divine power. I think the Razor centurions were explained as regular mutineers, they saw the first hybrid as some kind of prophet because of the way it talked and wanted to protect it from being scrapped. Seeing as how Kara was largely responsible for the end of Cylon civilization, except the few centurions that are still left, this explains why '''CYLON''" hybrids call her the harbinger of death (it was never stated she was the harbinger of death for humanity.) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Gully, as for question four the Thirteenth Tribe's Earth got nuked by their Centurions. From the surface, not from space. M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). The Final Five secretly built a ship and rebuilt resurrection (Which the 13th Tribe hadn't needed since first achieving reproduction on Kobol). That was how they escaped. -- [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 04:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: Alright, but being centurions the radiation wouldn't really hurt them, they could easily have created their own civilization after the dust settled (a bit like the machines in the "Terminator".) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Machines can be disabled by radiation, and the impacts themselves would have destroyed the Centurions. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

From the article: “Since the notes of All Along the Watchtower lead to Earth, do they still serve a purpose on Earth?” answer: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen_(film) yes]. -- [[User:LaloMartins|LaloMartins]] 12:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Regarding point six, in [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]], it was stated that, when the [[Resurrection Hub]] jumps, it transmits its' new location to the [[Hybrid]]s, so FTL communication technology definitely exists. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Adding a question on, the CGI Raptor launched ''16'' missiles, why were only 8 shown after the launch scene?--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 06:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

==== What Precisely Killed [[Margaret Edmondson|Racetrack]] and [[Hamish McCall|Skulls]]? ====

The Marines in the rear of the cabin were killed by explosive decompression and vacuum exposure, but Racetrack and Skulls were in sealed pressure suits. I don't recall seeing suit damage in that quick shot of Margaret's hand falling on the missile-launch button. Did the one penetrating rock cause invisible crushing injuries to both of them? It didn't look big enough to hit both of them square on. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 08:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:Skulls whas hit in his face or chest by the rock and there was a small hole in Racetrack's helmet when her hand fell on the button.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

==== [[Delphi]] ====

In the episode "[[Downloaded]]" the cylons were rebuilding the Caprican city of [[Delphi]] and living in it. Was this effort completely abandoned when the Cylons decided to occupy [[New Caprica]]? Or has the effort to recover [[Caprica_(RDM)|Caprica]] continued all this time and is it still occupied? Are there still a substantial number of human-Cylons living on Caprica? Will it become like first Earth before their holocaust, an entirely Cylon-populated society? Are any humans stragglers left alive on either Caprica or New Caprica? -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 09:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:They likely did leave the colonies after [[Downloaded]], there may still be some baseships out there, but the cylons on them are aging and cannot procreate. Even if they found Earth within their lifetimes a handful of basestars probably don't have enough nukes to obliterate the Earth's surface, that is assuming they'll actually know humans are living on Earth: it's pretty hard to find a stone age culture or neolithic society from space, even when you're actively looking for them (sure the colonials found one tribe, but in order to kill all humans with a limited number of nukes you'd have to know the positions of every tribe on Earth.)
There may be human survivors left on the colonies but it's unlikely: sure, they may have survived the nukes and the radiation, but the cylons actively hunted them down, probably to populations too small to repopulate the planets.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== The Angels Make Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. ''

----
From Act 10 section of article: "(This is in the year 1987 AD.)" How can it be 1987 when the flat panel TV clearly showed MSNBC logo at the bottom? MSNBC was created in 1996.--[[User:Steven512|Steven512]] 14:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Yes, the robots you see in this scene were also developed after 1987 and as far as I know the remains of mitochondrial Eve have never been found.
In 1987 it was discovered that there had been a mitochondrial Eve, this was based on DNA-research among modern humans, her actual remains have not been found to this day so the scene takes place in the near future (it could even be tomorrow), not in 1987!
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

== Hera's Mate = Boxey? ==

From the notes section

''On the second Earth Hera's mate that produced children was most likely human. Saul Tigh and the Leobens would be too old for her. While it was fairly common in ancient times for the men to be far older than their brides (particularly with royalty), for example with the female being as young as 12 and and the male being say 60 to take an extreme, Colonial mores, which are much like our own in real life, would forbid the Leobens from sexual congress with Hera when she reach the accepted reproductive age. On the other hand there were many human children about her age and slightly older in the Fleet. She could had also had children with a human child unborn at the time of the landing on Second Earth perhaps within five years to ten years of her age. It is possible that other hybrid children could had been born after the landing given that the Twos, Sixes, and Eights joined the humans. And it is possible that pure Cylon children could had been born to the age compatible Sixes, Eights, and Leobens but as noted in the series it is difficult if not impossible for a pure Cylon child to come to term making any pool of pure Cylon children that were successfully born very small. Cylon-Human mating with a human male with a Six or a Sharon is very possible with the example of Hera herself an significantly more likely than with a Cylon-Cylon birth, but it is harder than with human-human pairings making any pool of those pairing while much more likely and larger than Cylon-Cylon offspring, still quite small number compared to pure human offspring. Therefore Hera's offspring is most likely with a human. A more remote possibility is with another Cylon-human hybrid. Her producing children with a pure Cylon offspring is the least likely since pure Cylons are the least likely to exist.''

Boxey could be Hera's mate. It would make sense.

Boxey as Y-chromosomal Adam? Or would that be "Adama"? heh--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: The chromosomal Adam live tens of thousands of years after the Mitochondrial Eve.

: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 17:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
::Walabio is right and why would it be more likely for Hera to end up with Boxey instead of with one of the other hundreds of children from the fleet?
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 18:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::The ''Y-chromosomal Adam'' reference was to make the pun based on Boxey being Apollo's adopted son in TOS :). As for why it would make sense, it be for no other reason that it would give the RDM version of the character some (belated) importance, which he lacked through the run of the show. Why have her end up with some random kid from the fleet than have her end up with a character who had some level of development? Plus, look at it this way, the original intent according to some references on this site say that the plan was to make Boxey, Tyrol, and Sharon (Boomer) a makeshift family. Having him end up with Hera accomplishes part of that intent as he'd be related to one version of Sharon (Athena)--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It is a moot point. He had NO relevant to BSG any more since they dropped him as a character. If they didn't drop him as a character I think the perfect end would had been making him that guy that was killed in the mutiny, you know the one that acted as a runner between CIC and some damaged area of the ship to get a damage report for Adama at the near the beginning of the mutiny? He was then later killed by Gaeta's trigger happy Marines when he pushed Adama to the deck, saving his life. That would had been a good way for Boxey to go. He would had been the right age (17) and would had gave his character an ultimate purpose, to save Adama when the time came.
::: Of course it is possible for Boxey and Hera to had gotten together. He would had been 14 years old when Hera was born but with Hera say 20 years old Boxey would had been 34, a reasonable age difference allowable in both our and Colonial Society. And further it would had been another of the shows many ironies and "what goes around, comes around" themes: Boxey, who was taken in by Boomer, an Eight as a quasi foster son, later marries the daughter of Athena, an Eight, who was stolen and then given back by Boomer who was then killed Athena. Imagine all the physiological turmoil that could case Boxey. This show thrived on that sort of thing. LOL [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

== Number Three ==

Couldn't they have sent a Raptor or an FTL-capable ship to find Number Three and bring her to the New Earth with them? It would have been the humane thing to do. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: She was left on a dead-to-humans world, where the only plant life we saw were grasses or other non-edibles, with a background radiation count above the safe level beyond short exposure: even the water was contaminated. She probably died within a few weeks of being left behind. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 12:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Good point. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It was established by Athena in [[The Passage]] that Cylons are far more resistant to radiation than humans are. In fact they bombed [[Caprica]] and the other Colonies with high yield nuclear weapons '''outside''' the cities so they could kill the humans but keep the buildings and infrastructure intact. We saw them settling in [[Caprica City]] in "[[Downloaded]]" even reopening the coffee shops, so radiation is of no problem to them (except for the rare special kind of Nebula radiation at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]) So it is possible for [[D'Anna Biers]] to survive the radiation of Earth One and even drink the rain water. Food on the other hand would be a problem and I saw no evidence of surviving animal life, and this all assumes that she wanted to survive, which I don't think she would due to staying on the radioactive rock in the first place. Still, it would had been a nice thing to try to find her. Maybe a miracle would had happened LOL. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 00:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

== "No Further Significant Revelations..."==

I think this statement in the advisory tag is premature. There's still "The Plan", as well as, in theory, the Caprica series, both of which might provide further revelations with regards to Daybreak and the series itself. Certainly The Plan, anyway. Not to mention the presumed deleted scenes that will be on the DVD and there's a rumor Daybreak will be extended for the DVD as well. There's still a chance for some issues to be resolved. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 13:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:That's interesting. I don't expect The Plan to reveal much of anything about what Kara became or who the Virtual beings were, but Caprica might explore it given the establishment that they appear at times when the cycle of time (machine on human violence) begins. Caprica might provide the answers to the lingering questions if for nothing more than to give fans of BSG a reason to watch. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::Let's hope so, though I don't expect they will reveal much more about the divine powers or the angels, ever. It would take away the mystery and the sense that there is something bigger than us (humans and cylons), now we are left wondering if the divine power is a God, or just a very advanced race (maybe the perpetrators (or their descendents) of the first holocaust during the first cycle are feeling guilty) and I think that's how Ron Moore intended it to be. However, ''Caprica'' may reveal more about colonial history: what happened to Kobol, how did humans move from Kobol to the colonies, why was that history almost completely forgotten (was there a colonial dark age) and who or what were the Lords of Kobol? --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:::I'm sure that many people would agree, or at least theorize, that the virtual beings are Moore's version of the beings of light from the Ship of Lights, especially considering what happened to Kara, which I've seen (here or elsewhere, I forget) compared to what happened to the Starbuck from the original series on the last episode of Galactica 80. I think that the reason why Moore must have decided to leave things vague is that he didn't want to "cheapen it" by introducing something like the Ship of Lights into his show, which was more realistic than the original version. Now that I think about it, when Baltar tells Six that "it" doesn't like to be called God, it could be that "it" is the Ship of Lights or whatever version of it that exist in this version of the story. It would be cool if there was more exploration of this in Caprica, as well as further exploration of the "jealous God" from Kobol (which I'm sure we'll hear more of due to this headmistress in Caprica who doesn't believe in the Lords of Kobol) and all the other lingering questions from the show. In fact, given that religion is an important aspect of Caprica as it was in BSG (RDM) I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more of this down the line. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 17:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::::Hi, guys. Here's my two cents, since I'm the Senior Chief that added the special notice. "No further significant revelations" means "the story is generally over." BSG isn't Star Trek, guys. RDM has stated that there are some elements of the story that he wouldn't resolve, but that he would resolve the important stuff. Is that etched in stone somewhere? No. I'm sure ''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'' may open a few new questions. But until that series debuts, what we have is what we have. Battlestar Wiki allows some speculation because we're talking about a work of fiction. But to speculate further when no further answers are likely and people are making what's otherwise original research--that's [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]], and it's not allowed on Battlestar Wiki. For the purposes of this episode summary because its so long (and must be), we have to keep focus and not overload the article. Episode summaries are the only articles where questions can be asked (provided they don't go out of control) but many questions will not be answered. As soon as the noise dies down we can move some pressing questions to [[BW:OC|our special Q&A page answered by BSG co-producer Bradley Thompson]]. In my opinion, the nature of the Virtual Beings and Kara have been answered as far as RDM wanted to do. They are beings of divine source--and folks, religion is one thing that RDM loved to keep close to his chest to add to the BSG mystique. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::::: I'm not saying that The Plan is going to answer all the unanswered questions, etc. However The Plan has been acknowledged as the coda for this series, and just as important to it as Razor was. However the special notice as I saw it wasn't just in reference to Daybreak, but to the Wiki in general, and that's where I think it's premature. In terms of Daybreak itself, I agree that any additional revelations in The Plan will likely be minor and there are unlikely to be any in Caprica at all relating to that particular episode. But I think questions that come to mind are still worth asking with regards to characters that could be addressed in The Plan. And unless someone has already seen The Plan, or RDM has explicitly stated otherwise, we can't really predict which characters may or may not be addressed. Something that might be interesting once The Plan airs and is analysed is to go through the episode articles and compile the outstanding questions that the series has left unanswered. I think there will be fewer than some think, with the remainder being just enough to put this series into the same league as "The Prisoner" in that people will still be arguing over "what does it mean" 40 years from now. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

== How did the fleet reach Earth 2 / New Earth? ==
As far as I understood it before Galactica departed for the Colony they agreed to a rendezvous location with the fleet. But when jumping away from the colony Starbuck punched in the numbers of the song and Galactica jumped for its last time. But when it reappeared over New Earth the fleet also jumped right in. How did they get the coordinates (a raptor jumping to the rendezvous location?)? But how did they get them so fast? [[User:DJ Doena|DJ Doena]] 14:02, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:Galactica still had a few raptors left (we saw 7 of them landed on Earth) and 12 hours passed between the shot of Galactica jumping near the Moon and the rest of the fleet showing up, nothing fishy going on there. --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::The key here was time pressure. Someone had the coordinates, but with the chaos of getting sucked into a black hole, no one could give them to Kara in time before ''Galactica's'' final jump. When all was stable, someone remembered/recalled the Fleet's coordinates, sent a Raptor, and all was good. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:You missed the letters onscreen spelling "Twelve Hours Later". -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Consolidation change ==

Hey everyone! I just wanted to take a moment to explain the format and consolidation change for Act I. This change is a test for updating the event summary because:

*Each detail does not require a bullet.
*Having bullets for every event make it look redundant.

*However, having bullets between major events makes the summary flow a little better. This was the approach I used when summarizing [[Daybreak, Part I]]. It gives each scene a sense of distinction, like this example.

Are there any other opinions regarding this proposed change? If it's OK, I can start work on the other acts. -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 20:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:Given the massive data, it's okay to condense a few points. But keep it to maybe three or four lines condensed. Any larger and it's hard to follow. Try to keep it looking like the other episode guides as much as possible for consistency. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for the working guideline. As of this writing, Act I & II are done, and starting on the rest. Hope you guys like it! -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 07:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

==The robot at the end==
I corrected an addition in Story Notes that suggested the female robot at the very end is the one that was unveiled only a few days before the broadcast. That would have been very cool, but it's actually the "Actroid" which was unveiled 4 years ago. Interestingly I found Actroid, a 4-year-old technology, to be more lifelike than the one unveiled last week... [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

==The model on the cover of "Sports Limited"==
Here's a challenge for those who watched this on HD sets... I've heard it suggested that the model on the cover of "Sports Limited" (the SI-like magazine seen on the newsstand) might actually be Tricia Helfer. I can't tell at all on the computer-screen I'm using, but it might be a neat bit of trivia (not to mention it would open a line of speculation as to whether the Sixes have survived to the present day) if it's true. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 16:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

== Questions Section ==

I can never be more blunt than I tried to be before on these last two guides. The questions sections follow strict rules [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions/Episode_Guides#Questions_Section]] is the policy on this section. I am going to again clear out the questions section with the bad stuff. Users who do not follow our polices on the [[BW:SAC]] will be warned and if after being warned by doing it again, will be banned. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 02:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== Lie-dector test "question" ==

In the Questions section, somebody asked:'' "During the lie detector test in the flashback scene of William Adama's attempt to secure a civilian job, why did the interrogator ask him if he was a Cylon?"''

This was a control question in order to get a baseline from which to compare the real questions for deception. Such as if a polygraph-operator were to ask "Are you a dinosaur?" This fact was made immediately clear in the dialogue. This was in no way left unclear. It's not a mystery. It's not even a debate.

I've deleted it.

== What year is it "question" ==

Another rediculous addition to the Questions section: ''"What year is it on Earth during the final scene?"''

That too was answered by the title: "150,000 Years Later". Go back 150,000 years from 2009 AD, and you have the answer: 148000 B.C.E.

I've deleted the question.

== Regarding my edits to Questions Section ==

I've removed these three questions:

* Why so many zeros in the Model 0005?
* Does either Battlestar Galactica TV series exist in some form on the new Earth?
* Who or what is God exactly?

The first two are completely and utterly ridiculous and do not have any merit as questions. They will never be answered, and it's simply beneath the scope of what questions should be in that section in the first place.

The third question has been pretty much answered in the series by Baltar, who is essentially the mouthpiece of the writers coda on that subject. In the universe of BSG, God is a force of nature who doesn't like the name "God." -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== Galactica breaking her back ==

Just noticed, Galactica made her final jump with her flight pods out, maybe thats what caused the damage? I mean the extra forces exerted on the ship because of the higher amount of ship to effect. It makes sense that Galactica jumping without her pods retracted would place extraordinary amount of stress on the ship. Every other time even when dropping through the atmosphere at New Caprica the Galactica always had her pods retracted fro a jump.
--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 08:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

:That could very well have been a contributing factor, but there are many other factors in play, too, namely
:*her age,
:*compromises made during construction,
:*accumulated stresses and fractures from past battle damage and the sheer number of jumps,
:*lack of proper dock repair and maintenance,
:*her last sustained pounding at close-range, and ramming into the Colony.
:And consider that Adama and Tigh were told that she only had a few more jumps in her before she suffers structural damage. The old girl was already falling apart.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 13:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I remember that one of the specialists told Adama that Galactica had 5 jumps left max, but nevermind it I just took notice of it and wanted to see what everyone else thought of it. EDIT: Also noticed that Glactica's flight pods went up and down of their own accord after the jump, maybe thats why they retract the pods? I think the Mercuries could non-retract jump because of the way their support struts are placed. By the looks of it the movement of the pods was absolutely massive and that kind of stress would most certainly break Galactica's back no matter what sort of structural damage she had before. --[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 07:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

:A suspension bridge's cables snap, and the road buckles. Overwhelming stresses on the road deform it, and the cables snap. A similar arguement can be made for the flight pods. There could have been torque forces on the pods, but the loss of lateral supports could have affected the ship's rigidity that caused the body to flex, which could also cause the flight pods to sway, too.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 07:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

==Cylon Longevity==

According to [[No Exit]], Ellen and the others created Cavil in the image of her father, so it stands to reason that, 40 years prior to the fall of the colonies, he was already a man in his 70'(s?) and in fact had not aged in those four decades. It can be assumed that the same holds true for the other six humanoid cylons, all of which were considerably younger than him.

The point here is, if humaoid Cylons don't age then the surviving Cylons who didn't make it to Earth wouldn't have died out as it has been speculated, be it from old age or lack of mates to reproduce with. Their longevity could surpass human longevity and they could be alive at the end of the series.

Furthermore there's the issue of boxing. They could have boxed themselves as a form of suspended animation to ensure their survival and programmed Guardian Centurions to watch over them.

All in all, there are many number of ways in which the humanoid Cylons that didn't make it to Earth could have survived. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit: Now that I think about it, what about the Cylons who did make it to Earth? If they don't age, how did they die out? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

: Perhaps aging was only a non-issue when they had resurrection tech. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::You mean, they did age but then transfered their conciousness to younger bodies? That's possible. What about the option to box their conciousness? They could still survive that way (sure, their bodies might die out without some form of suspended animation given that they are biological, but their conciousness could survive as 1s and 0s that could be downloaded into new bodies 150,000 years later). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Removed questions ==

I've removed the following questions:
* Who were/are the Lords of Kobol?
** Good question, but not one with any connection to this episode.
* What year is the present day?
** I'm not sure what this is asking. We are shown that the Colonial's present is 150 000 years before our own.
* Who is the dying leader? Laura Roslin? Galactica? Starbuck?
** The narrative gives us many explicit statements that it is Roslin, and she fits the role perfectly, making it unnecessary to try and jam someone else into the position. Doing so without clear indications from the show is speculation.
* What’s the deal with Kara Thrace?
** She was sent back by "God" as an angel to guide the people to the new Earth. Covered fairly conclusively, if not explicitly.
* What is the true nature of the Head People?
** They were angels, as was stated many times.
* Who or what is guiding events?
** Something akin to "God", though it doesn't like to be called that. I think this is covered sufficiently in the earlier question about why "God" is guiding events.
* Is Virtual Baltar really the archangel Gabriel? If not, is Virtual Leobon? (Assuming they're not actually the same being, that is.)
** Theory without basis in the show.
--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 23:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

== Parallel evolution ==

It is implausible scientifically that Earth humans and Colonials just happened to evolve in parallel without outside influence (possibly from the head beings). Therefore, I wouldn't state it as fact that they're alien to each other -- there is no support for that in the show. The facts are that they can mate and that the characters are surprised about humans existing on Earth, but I wouldn't go as far as drawing conclusions about the origins of Colonials and humans. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

:It could be that in the Galactica universe humans are the standard of life across the universe, which is why they never encountered other life forms during their travels. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:: I covered this on this very talkpage [[#The_Angels_Make_Life_In_This_Galaxy_Boringly_Homogenous. | here. ]] Basically, the [[Angel]]s guide evolution subtly by such means as dropping huge asteroids on the dinosaurs so that they can create dodos in their place. Because of these [[Angel]]s life is the same everywhere right down to identical pianofortes playing [[the Music | All Along The Watchtower. ]]

:: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 18:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::Most importantly, don't forget the suits and ties, which were reinvented by accident or through the collective unconscious. Back to the topic, though - all I'm saying is that the fact that Earth humans are primitive in that era does not necessarily imply that the Colonials evolved totally independently on Kobol and are therefore aliens, as the note in the article stated. No need to make such bold conclusions for the sake of "You know what that actualy means?"-type trivia; we know the visible facts, and they should be reported as such, and we know there is a LOT that we don't know about the head beings, which opens up any number of possibilities for future storytelling. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 20:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::"And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees" The Algae planet could have been terraformed by the 13th Tribe before they reached Earth (maybe they intended to settle there but then learned of the supernova and changed their minds, but not after they had terraformed the planet and built the temple). New Caprica had trees? Wasn't it mostly a desert? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::: I shall address the remarks of Graf Iblis, None Of Your Business, and Man of the Atom together:

::::: What Graf Iblis says could make sense:

::::: Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense.

::::: About the trees on New Caprica, trees on our Earth come in 3 shapes:

* - Cone-Shaped

* - Mushroom-Shaped

* - Palm-Tree-Shaped

::::: For all 3 shapes one can find both angiosperms and gymnosperms. For the Palm-Tree-shaped we even have some ferns too. Convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs probably can explain the trees looking alike.

::::: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 23:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::: If the same tree species, and foxes, and chickens, and so on, can evolve on different planets without terraforming, humans aren't a stretch. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: But the trees need not be the same species on New Caprica.. Indeed, they may have only a superficial resemblance to each other. Despite looking externally similar ichthyosaurs and sharks are very different. For foxes, pidgins, humans, et cetera to be on both Cobol and our Earth, the [[Angel]]s would have to stear biological evolution on both planets or scooped up these organisms on our Earth where we know for a fact they evolved and taken them to Cobol.

::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: And the Twelve Colonies, if humans didn't bring them from Kobol (and I doubt they did). -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 03:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: It was mine understanding that the Colonists brought life from Cobol and terraformed the 12 planets orbiting a few stars in an open star-cluster.

::::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: "Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense." It goes without saying that BSG left people wanting more. One thing I would like to know more about is who the Lords of Kobol were, what their relationship with the Angels/Messengers was, and who the jealous Lord that Elosha mentioned in "Kobol's Last Gleaming" was meant to be. Was he Iblis? Was he God? Was Iblis meant to be God? According to some text on the first season finale's page, RDM wanted Dirk Benedick to play Iblis and introduce himself to Baltar as God. Could this still happen? Did RDM change his mind and made God a "force of nature", or did Iblis/Jealous Lord EVOLVE into a force of nature? Is it that he (it?) doesn't like to be called God because he prefers to be called "Iblis"? Wasn't Iblis refered to as Lord in the original show? (Lord Iblis sounds right to me). Iblis as the one true God who orchestrated everything that happened to the Colonials and the Cylons... wouldn't that be a twist (just like Starbuck being a woman was a twist) on the original? Iblis goes from being Satan to being God... I HOPE that this is explored more deeply in Caprica... How could it NOT be given that it features a religious school, right? What else will those characters talk about if not Colonial theology and the Lords of Kobol (as well as the jealous Lord of Kobol). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: I doubt that Ronald D. Moore will ever directly answer these questions. He will probably just frak up our minds even more.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: There's a chance that RDM intended to answer these and other questions on BSG, but when the opportunity came to develop a spin off (Caprica) he could have made the choice to abandon these plots and focus on the survival aspect of the story instead and keep them to be developed later in Caprica. With characters like the teacher/nun who believes in the "one true God", locations like the Athena school (is is Athena? I forget), and the cult of religious believers that Zoe Graystone's boyfriend belongs to, there's considerable evidence to believe that these topics will be explored in the series, either as fully-developed plots or just casual conversation (i.e. dialogue spoken in a classroom, a conversation between this teacher/nun and maybe a younger Elosha in the school's quad)... It would stand to reason that given that Caprica seems to be more deeply rooted in the theology of BSG that it would explore these ideas, which might be why they stopped being an issue in BSG, which was more about finding Earth/a new world than in about discovering the "truth of God". --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 01:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: I always figured that it is just another crazy cult. On our Earth, people blow themselves up in the name of the one true god all of the time. The one true cylon-god is nothing more than the one true god of the cult of the of true god.

::::::::: Both Joseph Adams and William Adama are atheists. Lee Adama seems indifferent to religion. I wonder whether this is nature or nurture.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 04:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: It could be a result of their loosing their family in the explosion. It could be that Joseph decides that religion only results in hatred (it is religion that pushes Zoe's boyfriend into detonating the bomb). The question is in finding the link between the Cylon's worship of the one true God and the cult that Zoe's boyfriend belogns to. Why would Daniel Graystone instill religion into the Cylons? If not him, then who, how, and why? Is it Zoe's friend? Is it the teacher/nun? Is it Virtual Zoe? Why would any Graystone believe in the one true God whose followers caused the death of Zoe, Adama's sister and mother, and all those other people?... Speaking of Virtual Zoe, will she be connected to Virtual Six and Virtual Baltar? Is the one true God really a divine being (i.e. a Lord of Kobol), a "force of nature", or a man inside a space ship (a ship of lights, if you will) who uses Graystone's Cylon and Virtual echnologies to influence Colonial life (well, that might not track given that the messengers visited the 13th Colony 2000 years prior to the creation of the Cononial Cylons, but wouldn't it be cool if it did, heh?). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 13:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-04-28T01:12:23Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Parallel evolution */

== Move ==
Why move this? The way I understand this, this is still episode 20, but it will be lengthened to actually be 3 episodes long. So in a away there are 21/22 episodes even, and not 19. However, [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/06/battlestars-fin.html This] says that the season will be 11 hours and not 12, but that doesn't mean that we need to get rid of episode 19 already. Especially given that the finale will probably air in at least 2 parts. So it makes some sense to have separate episodes guides for two airings. By production numbers this would be one episode, but split apart by airdate numbers. Maybe we should wait for some further clarification. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:It could be split up into 3 parts in reruns. I think it would be easier to start with a single article and then split as necessary after it airs. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::If Sci Fi is gonna pull a Miniseries and air this thing in two parts, we should pull a Miniseries too and have [[Miniseries, Night 1|separate]] [[Miniseries, Night 2|articles]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Which we can do after we know where the break point is. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 09:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to split the article at this time. We won't know how things will be aired until they're actually aired. All we know for now is that the finale's been extended... that's it. Creating two or three sections based on something we have absolutely very little information on is just... ill-advised. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 13:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:The proposal wasn't a split, but a merge with 419 I think (the article exists. It just isn't linked to, because it's an empty skeleton). But the result is the same. The way I understand it, 419+420 will be the finale then, with both episodes running 3 hours together (incl. ads I guess). We'll see. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::Ah, ok. Sounded like it would be a split, with at least one additional article, seeing as each article would cover an hour. Anyway, we don't have enough information to be certain; it's still really all up in the air, and they have now until doomsday to figure out how to release the thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

==Title==
''Daybreak, Part 2'' (and ''Part 3'') [http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/09/battlestar-galactica-cruise-book.html according to producer Mark Verheiden].--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 19:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE change the title of the page to Part II & Part III -- It is being sold on iTunes, Amazon, etc. and two completely different episodes and this actually screwed me up immensely because I ended up reading spoilers for Part 3 before I started watching it. Yes, this is how it aired, but it is not how it is being archived. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 13:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Analysis==
"Ronald D. Moore appears in a cameo as the man holding a National Geographic magazine in New York City. "

I think there is much more to it. Ronald D. Moore is appearing as himself reading that article because his knowledge of "Eve" influenced the series. In other words, the series is a result of the events depicted in the series. With that scene, Battlestar Galactica becomes part of Battlestar Galactica.

:This is impossibel since as of 2009 mitochondrial Eve's remains haven't been found yet, this scene is set in the future, after the series ended.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::Checkout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve. First articals apearred in 2003 ;)

It's not the same thing: we've known about mitochondrial Eve since before the series started, but her actual remains have not been found, there were never any bones of her found up to this day.
It's possible that Moore knowing about Eve's existence may have influenced the show, but he has never read an NGC article about the finding of her remains, simply because those remains haven't been found and thus never made their way into an NGC article.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Notes==

I recognised it immediately when watching the episode (and it's already on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_(Battlestar_Galactica)#Outside_references ), the "Kodiak" spacecraft from Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun can be seen among the fleet during this episode.

==(Un)answered questions)==

The following Ron Moore interview clears up some misunderstandings about the show: http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html

1) Kara Thrace's father was NOT the lost cylon Daniel.

2) The Missiles Racetrack's Raptor (accidentally) fires at the cylon colony were nukes that severely damaged the colony and made it fall from its stable orbit into the singularity (black hole) so the colony has been utterly destroyed.

3) The Earth which is discovered in this episode is not the same planet that was discovered in "Revelations." The Earth of "Revelations" was not the planet we now live on, but our Earth was named after it.

There are still a bunch of unanswered questions:

1) What is the nature of the divine power (although this was probably intentionally left unanswered.)

2) Who were the Lords of Kobol and what happened to that world?

3) How did the colonials get from Kobol to the colonies and if they were technologically advanced, how did they loose all knowledge of Kobol, save for some religious texts?

4) What happened to those who nuked the old Earth 2000 years ago, some of these victors would have survived, but they re never seen or heard from.

5) Why didn't Cavil and his cylons try to re-invent resurrection themselves as the technology wasn't that far ahead of them (it was re-invented by the final five on old-Earth in a civilization that hadn't even invented jump drives.)

6) How could the resurrection hub control all resurrection ships while there was never any mention of FTL-communication on the show and why wasn't the resurrection hub integrated into the colony rather than floating around in deep space, vulnerable and guarded by only 2 baseships.

7) Was the colony really the place where all cylons lived, was their civilization so small (and clearly no match for the colonial military before the holocaust) and are there no baseships left out there that still have cylons aboard who want to exact their revenge on humanity? They may die out like the article suggests, but there's nothing stopping them from taking Earth with them (provided they find it within their lifetime.)

8) What happened to the other rebel cylons? Was it just the 3 baseships that rebelled, and if not, where are the other 2's, 6's and 8's?

9) How did Lee get everyone to agree to give up technology (even medical)?

10) Had it not made more sense to build new cities on Earth and rebuild the advanced colonial civilization, when everyone understood how important equal treatment of cylons and humans is, instead of letting Earth's humans build their own civilization thousands of years later, humans who are likely to make the same old mistakes with artificial intelligence and repeat the cycle?

11) How come no intelligent alien life has ever been encountered by colonials or cylons in their histories, but when it finally happens these aliens are identical to humans, who somehow evolved separately from the Kobol humans? Somehow this amazing coincidence being an "act of God" seems like a rather unsatisfactory answer.

12) Since all the fleet's decisions after the Ellen's reapperarance have been about breaking the cycle, is Lee afraid that by having superior technology on earth the cylons and colonials would "enslave" the native population, creating yet another cycle?

-- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

:: He doesn't actually say that about Kara. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

You're right, I've edited my post. -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

: I'd still like to know the origin of Kara's pristine Viper from her resurrection or how she died going into a gas giant with her corpse resting on a planet light-years away. And what the deal is with the Centurions from "Razor" and the Hybrid they deified. And while I understand his prophesy, I'd like to know why the old Hybrid didn't want Kara to lead a new civilisation to Earth. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:36, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Her being sent back with a new viper was supposed to be an act of the divine power. I think the Razor centurions were explained as regular mutineers, they saw the first hybrid as some kind of prophet because of the way it talked and wanted to protect it from being scrapped. Seeing as how Kara was largely responsible for the end of Cylon civilization, except the few centurions that are still left, this explains why '''CYLON''" hybrids call her the harbinger of death (it was never stated she was the harbinger of death for humanity.) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Gully, as for question four the Thirteenth Tribe's Earth got nuked by their Centurions. From the surface, not from space. M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). The Final Five secretly built a ship and rebuilt resurrection (Which the 13th Tribe hadn't needed since first achieving reproduction on Kobol). That was how they escaped. -- [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 04:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: Alright, but being centurions the radiation wouldn't really hurt them, they could easily have created their own civilization after the dust settled (a bit like the machines in the "Terminator".) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Machines can be disabled by radiation, and the impacts themselves would have destroyed the Centurions. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

From the article: “Since the notes of All Along the Watchtower lead to Earth, do they still serve a purpose on Earth?” answer: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen_(film) yes]. -- [[User:LaloMartins|LaloMartins]] 12:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Regarding point six, in [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]], it was stated that, when the [[Resurrection Hub]] jumps, it transmits its' new location to the [[Hybrid]]s, so FTL communication technology definitely exists. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Adding a question on, the CGI Raptor launched ''16'' missiles, why were only 8 shown after the launch scene?--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 06:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

==== What Precisely Killed [[Margaret Edmondson|Racetrack]] and [[Hamish McCall|Skulls]]? ====

The Marines in the rear of the cabin were killed by explosive decompression and vacuum exposure, but Racetrack and Skulls were in sealed pressure suits. I don't recall seeing suit damage in that quick shot of Margaret's hand falling on the missile-launch button. Did the one penetrating rock cause invisible crushing injuries to both of them? It didn't look big enough to hit both of them square on. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 08:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:Skulls whas hit in his face or chest by the rock and there was a small hole in Racetrack's helmet when her hand fell on the button.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

==== [[Delphi]] ====

In the episode "[[Downloaded]]" the cylons were rebuilding the Caprican city of [[Delphi]] and living in it. Was this effort completely abandoned when the Cylons decided to occupy [[New Caprica]]? Or has the effort to recover [[Caprica_(RDM)|Caprica]] continued all this time and is it still occupied? Are there still a substantial number of human-Cylons living on Caprica? Will it become like first Earth before their holocaust, an entirely Cylon-populated society? Are any humans stragglers left alive on either Caprica or New Caprica? -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 09:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:They likely did leave the colonies after [[Downloaded]], there may still be some baseships out there, but the cylons on them are aging and cannot procreate. Even if they found Earth within their lifetimes a handful of basestars probably don't have enough nukes to obliterate the Earth's surface, that is assuming they'll actually know humans are living on Earth: it's pretty hard to find a stone age culture or neolithic society from space, even when you're actively looking for them (sure the colonials found one tribe, but in order to kill all humans with a limited number of nukes you'd have to know the positions of every tribe on Earth.)
There may be human survivors left on the colonies but it's unlikely: sure, they may have survived the nukes and the radiation, but the cylons actively hunted them down, probably to populations too small to repopulate the planets.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== The Angels Make Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. ''

----
From Act 10 section of article: "(This is in the year 1987 AD.)" How can it be 1987 when the flat panel TV clearly showed MSNBC logo at the bottom? MSNBC was created in 1996.--[[User:Steven512|Steven512]] 14:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Yes, the robots you see in this scene were also developed after 1987 and as far as I know the remains of mitochondrial Eve have never been found.
In 1987 it was discovered that there had been a mitochondrial Eve, this was based on DNA-research among modern humans, her actual remains have not been found to this day so the scene takes place in the near future (it could even be tomorrow), not in 1987!
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

== Hera's Mate = Boxey? ==

From the notes section

''On the second Earth Hera's mate that produced children was most likely human. Saul Tigh and the Leobens would be too old for her. While it was fairly common in ancient times for the men to be far older than their brides (particularly with royalty), for example with the female being as young as 12 and and the male being say 60 to take an extreme, Colonial mores, which are much like our own in real life, would forbid the Leobens from sexual congress with Hera when she reach the accepted reproductive age. On the other hand there were many human children about her age and slightly older in the Fleet. She could had also had children with a human child unborn at the time of the landing on Second Earth perhaps within five years to ten years of her age. It is possible that other hybrid children could had been born after the landing given that the Twos, Sixes, and Eights joined the humans. And it is possible that pure Cylon children could had been born to the age compatible Sixes, Eights, and Leobens but as noted in the series it is difficult if not impossible for a pure Cylon child to come to term making any pool of pure Cylon children that were successfully born very small. Cylon-Human mating with a human male with a Six or a Sharon is very possible with the example of Hera herself an significantly more likely than with a Cylon-Cylon birth, but it is harder than with human-human pairings making any pool of those pairing while much more likely and larger than Cylon-Cylon offspring, still quite small number compared to pure human offspring. Therefore Hera's offspring is most likely with a human. A more remote possibility is with another Cylon-human hybrid. Her producing children with a pure Cylon offspring is the least likely since pure Cylons are the least likely to exist.''

Boxey could be Hera's mate. It would make sense.

Boxey as Y-chromosomal Adam? Or would that be "Adama"? heh--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: The chromosomal Adam live tens of thousands of years after the Mitochondrial Eve.

: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 17:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
::Walabio is right and why would it be more likely for Hera to end up with Boxey instead of with one of the other hundreds of children from the fleet?
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 18:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::The ''Y-chromosomal Adam'' reference was to make the pun based on Boxey being Apollo's adopted son in TOS :). As for why it would make sense, it be for no other reason that it would give the RDM version of the character some (belated) importance, which he lacked through the run of the show. Why have her end up with some random kid from the fleet than have her end up with a character who had some level of development? Plus, look at it this way, the original intent according to some references on this site say that the plan was to make Boxey, Tyrol, and Sharon (Boomer) a makeshift family. Having him end up with Hera accomplishes part of that intent as he'd be related to one version of Sharon (Athena)--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It is a moot point. He had NO relevant to BSG any more since they dropped him as a character. If they didn't drop him as a character I think the perfect end would had been making him that guy that was killed in the mutiny, you know the one that acted as a runner between CIC and some damaged area of the ship to get a damage report for Adama at the near the beginning of the mutiny? He was then later killed by Gaeta's trigger happy Marines when he pushed Adama to the deck, saving his life. That would had been a good way for Boxey to go. He would had been the right age (17) and would had gave his character an ultimate purpose, to save Adama when the time came.
::: Of course it is possible for Boxey and Hera to had gotten together. He would had been 14 years old when Hera was born but with Hera say 20 years old Boxey would had been 34, a reasonable age difference allowable in both our and Colonial Society. And further it would had been another of the shows many ironies and "what goes around, comes around" themes: Boxey, who was taken in by Boomer, an Eight as a quasi foster son, later marries the daughter of Athena, an Eight, who was stolen and then given back by Boomer who was then killed Athena. Imagine all the physiological turmoil that could case Boxey. This show thrived on that sort of thing. LOL [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

== Number Three ==

Couldn't they have sent a Raptor or an FTL-capable ship to find Number Three and bring her to the New Earth with them? It would have been the humane thing to do. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: She was left on a dead-to-humans world, where the only plant life we saw were grasses or other non-edibles, with a background radiation count above the safe level beyond short exposure: even the water was contaminated. She probably died within a few weeks of being left behind. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 12:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Good point. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It was established by Athena in [[The Passage]] that Cylons are far more resistant to radiation than humans are. In fact they bombed [[Caprica]] and the other Colonies with high yield nuclear weapons '''outside''' the cities so they could kill the humans but keep the buildings and infrastructure intact. We saw them settling in [[Caprica City]] in "[[Downloaded]]" even reopening the coffee shops, so radiation is of no problem to them (except for the rare special kind of Nebula radiation at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]) So it is possible for [[D'Anna Biers]] to survive the radiation of Earth One and even drink the rain water. Food on the other hand would be a problem and I saw no evidence of surviving animal life, and this all assumes that she wanted to survive, which I don't think she would due to staying on the radioactive rock in the first place. Still, it would had been a nice thing to try to find her. Maybe a miracle would had happened LOL. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 00:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

== "No Further Significant Revelations..."==

I think this statement in the advisory tag is premature. There's still "The Plan", as well as, in theory, the Caprica series, both of which might provide further revelations with regards to Daybreak and the series itself. Certainly The Plan, anyway. Not to mention the presumed deleted scenes that will be on the DVD and there's a rumor Daybreak will be extended for the DVD as well. There's still a chance for some issues to be resolved. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 13:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:That's interesting. I don't expect The Plan to reveal much of anything about what Kara became or who the Virtual beings were, but Caprica might explore it given the establishment that they appear at times when the cycle of time (machine on human violence) begins. Caprica might provide the answers to the lingering questions if for nothing more than to give fans of BSG a reason to watch. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::Let's hope so, though I don't expect they will reveal much more about the divine powers or the angels, ever. It would take away the mystery and the sense that there is something bigger than us (humans and cylons), now we are left wondering if the divine power is a God, or just a very advanced race (maybe the perpetrators (or their descendents) of the first holocaust during the first cycle are feeling guilty) and I think that's how Ron Moore intended it to be. However, ''Caprica'' may reveal more about colonial history: what happened to Kobol, how did humans move from Kobol to the colonies, why was that history almost completely forgotten (was there a colonial dark age) and who or what were the Lords of Kobol? --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:::I'm sure that many people would agree, or at least theorize, that the virtual beings are Moore's version of the beings of light from the Ship of Lights, especially considering what happened to Kara, which I've seen (here or elsewhere, I forget) compared to what happened to the Starbuck from the original series on the last episode of Galactica 80. I think that the reason why Moore must have decided to leave things vague is that he didn't want to "cheapen it" by introducing something like the Ship of Lights into his show, which was more realistic than the original version. Now that I think about it, when Baltar tells Six that "it" doesn't like to be called God, it could be that "it" is the Ship of Lights or whatever version of it that exist in this version of the story. It would be cool if there was more exploration of this in Caprica, as well as further exploration of the "jealous God" from Kobol (which I'm sure we'll hear more of due to this headmistress in Caprica who doesn't believe in the Lords of Kobol) and all the other lingering questions from the show. In fact, given that religion is an important aspect of Caprica as it was in BSG (RDM) I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more of this down the line. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 17:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::::Hi, guys. Here's my two cents, since I'm the Senior Chief that added the special notice. "No further significant revelations" means "the story is generally over." BSG isn't Star Trek, guys. RDM has stated that there are some elements of the story that he wouldn't resolve, but that he would resolve the important stuff. Is that etched in stone somewhere? No. I'm sure ''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'' may open a few new questions. But until that series debuts, what we have is what we have. Battlestar Wiki allows some speculation because we're talking about a work of fiction. But to speculate further when no further answers are likely and people are making what's otherwise original research--that's [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]], and it's not allowed on Battlestar Wiki. For the purposes of this episode summary because its so long (and must be), we have to keep focus and not overload the article. Episode summaries are the only articles where questions can be asked (provided they don't go out of control) but many questions will not be answered. As soon as the noise dies down we can move some pressing questions to [[BW:OC|our special Q&A page answered by BSG co-producer Bradley Thompson]]. In my opinion, the nature of the Virtual Beings and Kara have been answered as far as RDM wanted to do. They are beings of divine source--and folks, religion is one thing that RDM loved to keep close to his chest to add to the BSG mystique. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::::: I'm not saying that The Plan is going to answer all the unanswered questions, etc. However The Plan has been acknowledged as the coda for this series, and just as important to it as Razor was. However the special notice as I saw it wasn't just in reference to Daybreak, but to the Wiki in general, and that's where I think it's premature. In terms of Daybreak itself, I agree that any additional revelations in The Plan will likely be minor and there are unlikely to be any in Caprica at all relating to that particular episode. But I think questions that come to mind are still worth asking with regards to characters that could be addressed in The Plan. And unless someone has already seen The Plan, or RDM has explicitly stated otherwise, we can't really predict which characters may or may not be addressed. Something that might be interesting once The Plan airs and is analysed is to go through the episode articles and compile the outstanding questions that the series has left unanswered. I think there will be fewer than some think, with the remainder being just enough to put this series into the same league as "The Prisoner" in that people will still be arguing over "what does it mean" 40 years from now. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

== How did the fleet reach Earth 2 / New Earth? ==
As far as I understood it before Galactica departed for the Colony they agreed to a rendezvous location with the fleet. But when jumping away from the colony Starbuck punched in the numbers of the song and Galactica jumped for its last time. But when it reappeared over New Earth the fleet also jumped right in. How did they get the coordinates (a raptor jumping to the rendezvous location?)? But how did they get them so fast? [[User:DJ Doena|DJ Doena]] 14:02, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:Galactica still had a few raptors left (we saw 7 of them landed on Earth) and 12 hours passed between the shot of Galactica jumping near the Moon and the rest of the fleet showing up, nothing fishy going on there. --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::The key here was time pressure. Someone had the coordinates, but with the chaos of getting sucked into a black hole, no one could give them to Kara in time before ''Galactica's'' final jump. When all was stable, someone remembered/recalled the Fleet's coordinates, sent a Raptor, and all was good. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:You missed the letters onscreen spelling "Twelve Hours Later". -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Consolidation change ==

Hey everyone! I just wanted to take a moment to explain the format and consolidation change for Act I. This change is a test for updating the event summary because:

*Each detail does not require a bullet.
*Having bullets for every event make it look redundant.

*However, having bullets between major events makes the summary flow a little better. This was the approach I used when summarizing [[Daybreak, Part I]]. It gives each scene a sense of distinction, like this example.

Are there any other opinions regarding this proposed change? If it's OK, I can start work on the other acts. -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 20:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:Given the massive data, it's okay to condense a few points. But keep it to maybe three or four lines condensed. Any larger and it's hard to follow. Try to keep it looking like the other episode guides as much as possible for consistency. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for the working guideline. As of this writing, Act I & II are done, and starting on the rest. Hope you guys like it! -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 07:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

==The robot at the end==
I corrected an addition in Story Notes that suggested the female robot at the very end is the one that was unveiled only a few days before the broadcast. That would have been very cool, but it's actually the "Actroid" which was unveiled 4 years ago. Interestingly I found Actroid, a 4-year-old technology, to be more lifelike than the one unveiled last week... [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

==The model on the cover of "Sports Limited"==
Here's a challenge for those who watched this on HD sets... I've heard it suggested that the model on the cover of "Sports Limited" (the SI-like magazine seen on the newsstand) might actually be Tricia Helfer. I can't tell at all on the computer-screen I'm using, but it might be a neat bit of trivia (not to mention it would open a line of speculation as to whether the Sixes have survived to the present day) if it's true. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 16:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

== Questions Section ==

I can never be more blunt than I tried to be before on these last two guides. The questions sections follow strict rules [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions/Episode_Guides#Questions_Section]] is the policy on this section. I am going to again clear out the questions section with the bad stuff. Users who do not follow our polices on the [[BW:SAC]] will be warned and if after being warned by doing it again, will be banned. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 02:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== Lie-dector test "question" ==

In the Questions section, somebody asked:'' "During the lie detector test in the flashback scene of William Adama's attempt to secure a civilian job, why did the interrogator ask him if he was a Cylon?"''

This was a control question in order to get a baseline from which to compare the real questions for deception. Such as if a polygraph-operator were to ask "Are you a dinosaur?" This fact was made immediately clear in the dialogue. This was in no way left unclear. It's not a mystery. It's not even a debate.

I've deleted it.

== What year is it "question" ==

Another rediculous addition to the Questions section: ''"What year is it on Earth during the final scene?"''

That too was answered by the title: "150,000 Years Later". Go back 150,000 years from 2009 AD, and you have the answer: 148000 B.C.E.

I've deleted the question.

== Regarding my edits to Questions Section ==

I've removed these three questions:

* Why so many zeros in the Model 0005?
* Does either Battlestar Galactica TV series exist in some form on the new Earth?
* Who or what is God exactly?

The first two are completely and utterly ridiculous and do not have any merit as questions. They will never be answered, and it's simply beneath the scope of what questions should be in that section in the first place.

The third question has been pretty much answered in the series by Baltar, who is essentially the mouthpiece of the writers coda on that subject. In the universe of BSG, God is a force of nature who doesn't like the name "God." -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== Galactica breaking her back ==

Just noticed, Galactica made her final jump with her flight pods out, maybe thats what caused the damage? I mean the extra forces exerted on the ship because of the higher amount of ship to effect. It makes sense that Galactica jumping without her pods retracted would place extraordinary amount of stress on the ship. Every other time even when dropping through the atmosphere at New Caprica the Galactica always had her pods retracted fro a jump.
--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 08:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

:That could very well have been a contributing factor, but there are many other factors in play, too, namely
:*her age,
:*compromises made during construction,
:*accumulated stresses and fractures from past battle damage and the sheer number of jumps,
:*lack of proper dock repair and maintenance,
:*her last sustained pounding at close-range, and ramming into the Colony.
:And consider that Adama and Tigh were told that she only had a few more jumps in her before she suffers structural damage. The old girl was already falling apart.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 13:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I remember that one of the specialists told Adama that Galactica had 5 jumps left max, but nevermind it I just took notice of it and wanted to see what everyone else thought of it. EDIT: Also noticed that Glactica's flight pods went up and down of their own accord after the jump, maybe thats why they retract the pods? I think the Mercuries could non-retract jump because of the way their support struts are placed. By the looks of it the movement of the pods was absolutely massive and that kind of stress would most certainly break Galactica's back no matter what sort of structural damage she had before. --[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 07:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

==Cylon Longevity==

According to [[No Exit]], Ellen and the others created Cavil in the image of her father, so it stands to reason that, 40 years prior to the fall of the colonies, he was already a man in his 70'(s?) and in fact had not aged in those four decades. It can be assumed that the same holds true for the other six humanoid cylons, all of which were considerably younger than him.

The point here is, if humaoid Cylons don't age then the surviving Cylons who didn't make it to Earth wouldn't have died out as it has been speculated, be it from old age or lack of mates to reproduce with. Their longevity could surpass human longevity and they could be alive at the end of the series.

Furthermore there's the issue of boxing. They could have boxed themselves as a form of suspended animation to ensure their survival and programmed Guardian Centurions to watch over them.

All in all, there are many number of ways in which the humanoid Cylons that didn't make it to Earth could have survived. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit: Now that I think about it, what about the Cylons who did make it to Earth? If they don't age, how did they die out? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

: Perhaps aging was only a non-issue when they had resurrection tech. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::You mean, they did age but then transfered their conciousness to younger bodies? That's possible. What about the option to box their conciousness? They could still survive that way (sure, their bodies might die out without some form of suspended animation given that they are biological, but their conciousness could survive as 1s and 0s that could be downloaded into new bodies 150,000 years later). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Removed questions ==

I've removed the following questions:
* Who were/are the Lords of Kobol?
** Good question, but not one with any connection to this episode.
* What year is the present day?
** I'm not sure what this is asking. We are shown that the Colonial's present is 150 000 years before our own.
* Who is the dying leader? Laura Roslin? Galactica? Starbuck?
** The narrative gives us many explicit statements that it is Roslin, and she fits the role perfectly, making it unnecessary to try and jam someone else into the position. Doing so without clear indications from the show is speculation.
* What’s the deal with Kara Thrace?
** She was sent back by "God" as an angel to guide the people to the new Earth. Covered fairly conclusively, if not explicitly.
* What is the true nature of the Head People?
** They were angels, as was stated many times.
* Who or what is guiding events?
** Something akin to "God", though it doesn't like to be called that. I think this is covered sufficiently in the earlier question about why "God" is guiding events.
* Is Virtual Baltar really the archangel Gabriel? If not, is Virtual Leobon? (Assuming they're not actually the same being, that is.)
** Theory without basis in the show.
--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 23:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

== Parallel evolution ==

It is implausible scientifically that Earth humans and Colonials just happened to evolve in parallel without outside influence (possibly from the head beings). Therefore, I wouldn't state it as fact that they're alien to each other -- there is no support for that in the show. The facts are that they can mate and that the characters are surprised about humans existing on Earth, but I wouldn't go as far as drawing conclusions about the origins of Colonials and humans. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

:It could be that in the Galactica universe humans are the standard of life across the universe, which is why they never encountered other life forms during their travels. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:: I covered this on this very talkpage [[#The_Angels_Make_Life_In_This_Galaxy_Boringly_Homogenous. | here. ]] Basically, the [[Angel]]s guide evolution subtly by such means as dropping huge asteroids on the dinosaurs so that they can create dodos in their place. Because of these [[Angel]]s life is the same everywhere right down to identical pianofortes playing [[the Music | All Along The Watchtower. ]]

:: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 18:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::Most importantly, don't forget the suits and ties, which were reinvented by accident or through the collective unconscious. Back to the topic, though - all I'm saying is that the fact that Earth humans are primitive in that era does not necessarily imply that the Colonials evolved totally independently on Kobol and are therefore aliens, as the note in the article stated. No need to make such bold conclusions for the sake of "You know what that actualy means?"-type trivia; we know the visible facts, and they should be reported as such, and we know there is a LOT that we don't know about the head beings, which opens up any number of possibilities for future storytelling. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 20:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::"And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees" The Algae planet could have been terraformed by the 13th Tribe before they reached Earth (maybe they intended to settle there but then learned of the supernova and changed their minds, but not after they had terraformed the planet and built the temple). New Caprica had trees? Wasn't it mostly a desert? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::: I shall address the remarks of Graf Iblis, None Of Your Business, and Man of the Atom together:

::::: What Graf Iblis says could make sense:

::::: Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense.

::::: About the trees on New Caprica, trees on our Earth come in 3 shapes:

* - Cone-Shaped

* - Mushroom-Shaped

* - Palm-Tree-Shaped

::::: For all 3 shapes one can find both angiosperms and gymnosperms. For the Palm-Tree-shaped we even have some ferns too. Convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs probably can explain the trees looking alike.

::::: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 23:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::: If the same tree species, and foxes, and chickens, and so on, can evolve on different planets without terraforming, humans aren't a stretch. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: But the trees need not be the same species on New Caprica.. Indeed, they may have only a superficial resemblance to each other. Despite looking externally similar ichthyosaurs and sharks are very different. For foxes, pidgins, humans, et cetera to be on both Cobol and our Earth, the [[Angel]]s would have to stear biological evolution on both planets or scooped up these organisms on our Earth where we know for a fact they evolves and taken them to Cobol.

::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: "Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense." It goes without saying that BSG left people wanting more. One thing I would like to know more about is who the Lords of Kobol were, what their relationship with the Angels/Messengers was, and who the jealous Lord that Elosha mentioned in "Kobol's Last Gleaming" was meant to be. Was he Iblis? Was he God? Was Iblis meant to be God? According to some text on the first season finale's page, RDM wanted Dirk Benedick to play Iblis and introduce himself to Baltar as God. Could this still happen? Did RDM change his mind and made God a "force of nature", or did Iblis/Jealous Lord EVOLVE into a force of nature? Is it that he (it?) doesn't like to be called God because he prefers to be called "Iblis"? Wasn't Iblis refered to as Lord in the original show? (Lord Iblis sounds right to me). Iblis as the one true God who orchestrated everything that happened to the Colonials and the Cylons... wouldn't that be a twist (just like Starbuck being a woman was a twist) on the original? Iblis goes from being Satan to being God... I HOPE that this is explored more deeply in Caprica... How could it NOT be given that it features a religious school, right? What else will those characters talk about if not Colonial theology and the Lords of Kobol (as well as the jealous Lord of Kobol). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: I doubt that Ronald D. Moore will ever directly answer these questions. He will probably just frak up our minds even more.

:::::::: [[User:Walabio|— “⸘Ŭalabio‽”]] 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::::: There's a chance that RDM intended to answer these and other questions on BSG, but when the opportunity came to develop a spin off (Caprica) he could have made the choice to abandon these plots and focus on the survival aspect of the story instead and keep them to be developed later in Caprica. With characters like the teacher/nun who believes in the "one true God", locations like the Athena school (is is Athena? I forget), and the cult of religious believers that Zoe Graystone's boyfriend belongs to, there's considerable evidence to believe that these topics will be explored in the series, either as fully-developed plots or just casual conversation (i.e. dialogue spoken in a classroom, a conversation between this teacher/nun and maybe a younger Elosha in the school's quad)... It would stand to reason that given that Caprica seems to be more deeply rooted in the theology of BSG that it would explore these ideas, which might be why they stopped being an issue in BSG, which was more about finding Earth/a new world than in about discovering the "truth of God". --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 01:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-04-28T00:22:25Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Parallel evolution */

== Move ==
Why move this? The way I understand this, this is still episode 20, but it will be lengthened to actually be 3 episodes long. So in a away there are 21/22 episodes even, and not 19. However, [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/06/battlestars-fin.html This] says that the season will be 11 hours and not 12, but that doesn't mean that we need to get rid of episode 19 already. Especially given that the finale will probably air in at least 2 parts. So it makes some sense to have separate episodes guides for two airings. By production numbers this would be one episode, but split apart by airdate numbers. Maybe we should wait for some further clarification. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:It could be split up into 3 parts in reruns. I think it would be easier to start with a single article and then split as necessary after it airs. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::If Sci Fi is gonna pull a Miniseries and air this thing in two parts, we should pull a Miniseries too and have [[Miniseries, Night 1|separate]] [[Miniseries, Night 2|articles]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Which we can do after we know where the break point is. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 09:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to split the article at this time. We won't know how things will be aired until they're actually aired. All we know for now is that the finale's been extended... that's it. Creating two or three sections based on something we have absolutely very little information on is just... ill-advised. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 13:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:The proposal wasn't a split, but a merge with 419 I think (the article exists. It just isn't linked to, because it's an empty skeleton). But the result is the same. The way I understand it, 419+420 will be the finale then, with both episodes running 3 hours together (incl. ads I guess). We'll see. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::Ah, ok. Sounded like it would be a split, with at least one additional article, seeing as each article would cover an hour. Anyway, we don't have enough information to be certain; it's still really all up in the air, and they have now until doomsday to figure out how to release the thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

==Title==
''Daybreak, Part 2'' (and ''Part 3'') [http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/09/battlestar-galactica-cruise-book.html according to producer Mark Verheiden].--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 19:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE change the title of the page to Part II & Part III -- It is being sold on iTunes, Amazon, etc. and two completely different episodes and this actually screwed me up immensely because I ended up reading spoilers for Part 3 before I started watching it. Yes, this is how it aired, but it is not how it is being archived. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 13:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Analysis==
"Ronald D. Moore appears in a cameo as the man holding a National Geographic magazine in New York City. "

I think there is much more to it. Ronald D. Moore is appearing as himself reading that article because his knowledge of "Eve" influenced the series. In other words, the series is a result of the events depicted in the series. With that scene, Battlestar Galactica becomes part of Battlestar Galactica.

:This is impossibel since as of 2009 mitochondrial Eve's remains haven't been found yet, this scene is set in the future, after the series ended.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::Checkout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve. First articals apearred in 2003 ;)

It's not the same thing: we've known about mitochondrial Eve since before the series started, but her actual remains have not been found, there were never any bones of her found up to this day.
It's possible that Moore knowing about Eve's existence may have influenced the show, but he has never read an NGC article about the finding of her remains, simply because those remains haven't been found and thus never made their way into an NGC article.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Notes==

I recognised it immediately when watching the episode (and it's already on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_(Battlestar_Galactica)#Outside_references ), the "Kodiak" spacecraft from Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun can be seen among the fleet during this episode.

==(Un)answered questions)==

The following Ron Moore interview clears up some misunderstandings about the show: http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html

1) Kara Thrace's father was NOT the lost cylon Daniel.

2) The Missiles Racetrack's Raptor (accidentally) fires at the cylon colony were nukes that severely damaged the colony and made it fall from its stable orbit into the singularity (black hole) so the colony has been utterly destroyed.

3) The Earth which is discovered in this episode is not the same planet that was discovered in "Revelations." The Earth of "Revelations" was not the planet we now live on, but our Earth was named after it.

There are still a bunch of unanswered questions:

1) What is the nature of the divine power (although this was probably intentionally left unanswered.)

2) Who were the Lords of Kobol and what happened to that world?

3) How did the colonials get from Kobol to the colonies and if they were technologically advanced, how did they loose all knowledge of Kobol, save for some religious texts?

4) What happened to those who nuked the old Earth 2000 years ago, some of these victors would have survived, but they re never seen or heard from.

5) Why didn't Cavil and his cylons try to re-invent resurrection themselves as the technology wasn't that far ahead of them (it was re-invented by the final five on old-Earth in a civilization that hadn't even invented jump drives.)

6) How could the resurrection hub control all resurrection ships while there was never any mention of FTL-communication on the show and why wasn't the resurrection hub integrated into the colony rather than floating around in deep space, vulnerable and guarded by only 2 baseships.

7) Was the colony really the place where all cylons lived, was their civilization so small (and clearly no match for the colonial military before the holocaust) and are there no baseships left out there that still have cylons aboard who want to exact their revenge on humanity? They may die out like the article suggests, but there's nothing stopping them from taking Earth with them (provided they find it within their lifetime.)

8) What happened to the other rebel cylons? Was it just the 3 baseships that rebelled, and if not, where are the other 2's, 6's and 8's?

9) How did Lee get everyone to agree to give up technology (even medical)?

10) Had it not made more sense to build new cities on Earth and rebuild the advanced colonial civilization, when everyone understood how important equal treatment of cylons and humans is, instead of letting Earth's humans build their own civilization thousands of years later, humans who are likely to make the same old mistakes with artificial intelligence and repeat the cycle?

11) How come no intelligent alien life has ever been encountered by colonials or cylons in their histories, but when it finally happens these aliens are identical to humans, who somehow evolved separately from the Kobol humans? Somehow this amazing coincidence being an "act of God" seems like a rather unsatisfactory answer.

12) Since all the fleet's decisions after the Ellen's reapperarance have been about breaking the cycle, is Lee afraid that by having superior technology on earth the cylons and colonials would "enslave" the native population, creating yet another cycle?

-- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

:: He doesn't actually say that about Kara. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

You're right, I've edited my post. -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

: I'd still like to know the origin of Kara's pristine Viper from her resurrection or how she died going into a gas giant with her corpse resting on a planet light-years away. And what the deal is with the Centurions from "Razor" and the Hybrid they deified. And while I understand his prophesy, I'd like to know why the old Hybrid didn't want Kara to lead a new civilisation to Earth. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:36, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Her being sent back with a new viper was supposed to be an act of the divine power. I think the Razor centurions were explained as regular mutineers, they saw the first hybrid as some kind of prophet because of the way it talked and wanted to protect it from being scrapped. Seeing as how Kara was largely responsible for the end of Cylon civilization, except the few centurions that are still left, this explains why '''CYLON''" hybrids call her the harbinger of death (it was never stated she was the harbinger of death for humanity.) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Gully, as for question four the Thirteenth Tribe's Earth got nuked by their Centurions. From the surface, not from space. M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). The Final Five secretly built a ship and rebuilt resurrection (Which the 13th Tribe hadn't needed since first achieving reproduction on Kobol). That was how they escaped. -- [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 04:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: Alright, but being centurions the radiation wouldn't really hurt them, they could easily have created their own civilization after the dust settled (a bit like the machines in the "Terminator".) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Machines can be disabled by radiation, and the impacts themselves would have destroyed the Centurions. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

From the article: “Since the notes of All Along the Watchtower lead to Earth, do they still serve a purpose on Earth?” answer: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen_(film) yes]. -- [[User:LaloMartins|LaloMartins]] 12:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Regarding point six, in [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]], it was stated that, when the [[Resurrection Hub]] jumps, it transmits its' new location to the [[Hybrid]]s, so FTL communication technology definitely exists. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Adding a question on, the CGI Raptor launched ''16'' missiles, why were only 8 shown after the launch scene?--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 06:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

==== What Precisely Killed [[Margaret Edmondson|Racetrack]] and [[Hamish McCall|Skulls]]? ====

The Marines in the rear of the cabin were killed by explosive decompression and vacuum exposure, but Racetrack and Skulls were in sealed pressure suits. I don't recall seeing suit damage in that quick shot of Margaret's hand falling on the missile-launch button. Did the one penetrating rock cause invisible crushing injuries to both of them? It didn't look big enough to hit both of them square on. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 08:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:Skulls whas hit in his face or chest by the rock and there was a small hole in Racetrack's helmet when her hand fell on the button.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

==== [[Delphi]] ====

In the episode "[[Downloaded]]" the cylons were rebuilding the Caprican city of [[Delphi]] and living in it. Was this effort completely abandoned when the Cylons decided to occupy [[New Caprica]]? Or has the effort to recover [[Caprica_(RDM)|Caprica]] continued all this time and is it still occupied? Are there still a substantial number of human-Cylons living on Caprica? Will it become like first Earth before their holocaust, an entirely Cylon-populated society? Are any humans stragglers left alive on either Caprica or New Caprica? -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 09:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:They likely did leave the colonies after [[Downloaded]], there may still be some baseships out there, but the cylons on them are aging and cannot procreate. Even if they found Earth within their lifetimes a handful of basestars probably don't have enough nukes to obliterate the Earth's surface, that is assuming they'll actually know humans are living on Earth: it's pretty hard to find a stone age culture or neolithic society from space, even when you're actively looking for them (sure the colonials found one tribe, but in order to kill all humans with a limited number of nukes you'd have to know the positions of every tribe on Earth.)
There may be human survivors left on the colonies but it's unlikely: sure, they may have survived the nukes and the radiation, but the cylons actively hunted them down, probably to populations too small to repopulate the planets.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== The Angels Make Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. ''

----
From Act 10 section of article: "(This is in the year 1987 AD.)" How can it be 1987 when the flat panel TV clearly showed MSNBC logo at the bottom? MSNBC was created in 1996.--[[User:Steven512|Steven512]] 14:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Yes, the robots you see in this scene were also developed after 1987 and as far as I know the remains of mitochondrial Eve have never been found.
In 1987 it was discovered that there had been a mitochondrial Eve, this was based on DNA-research among modern humans, her actual remains have not been found to this day so the scene takes place in the near future (it could even be tomorrow), not in 1987!
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

== Hera's Mate = Boxey? ==

From the notes section

''On the second Earth Hera's mate that produced children was most likely human. Saul Tigh and the Leobens would be too old for her. While it was fairly common in ancient times for the men to be far older than their brides (particularly with royalty), for example with the female being as young as 12 and and the male being say 60 to take an extreme, Colonial mores, which are much like our own in real life, would forbid the Leobens from sexual congress with Hera when she reach the accepted reproductive age. On the other hand there were many human children about her age and slightly older in the Fleet. She could had also had children with a human child unborn at the time of the landing on Second Earth perhaps within five years to ten years of her age. It is possible that other hybrid children could had been born after the landing given that the Twos, Sixes, and Eights joined the humans. And it is possible that pure Cylon children could had been born to the age compatible Sixes, Eights, and Leobens but as noted in the series it is difficult if not impossible for a pure Cylon child to come to term making any pool of pure Cylon children that were successfully born very small. Cylon-Human mating with a human male with a Six or a Sharon is very possible with the example of Hera herself an significantly more likely than with a Cylon-Cylon birth, but it is harder than with human-human pairings making any pool of those pairing while much more likely and larger than Cylon-Cylon offspring, still quite small number compared to pure human offspring. Therefore Hera's offspring is most likely with a human. A more remote possibility is with another Cylon-human hybrid. Her producing children with a pure Cylon offspring is the least likely since pure Cylons are the least likely to exist.''

Boxey could be Hera's mate. It would make sense.

Boxey as Y-chromosomal Adam? Or would that be "Adama"? heh--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: The chromosomal Adam live tens of thousands of years after the Mitochondrial Eve.

: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 17:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
::Walabio is right and why would it be more likely for Hera to end up with Boxey instead of with one of the other hundreds of children from the fleet?
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 18:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::The ''Y-chromosomal Adam'' reference was to make the pun based on Boxey being Apollo's adopted son in TOS :). As for why it would make sense, it be for no other reason that it would give the RDM version of the character some (belated) importance, which he lacked through the run of the show. Why have her end up with some random kid from the fleet than have her end up with a character who had some level of development? Plus, look at it this way, the original intent according to some references on this site say that the plan was to make Boxey, Tyrol, and Sharon (Boomer) a makeshift family. Having him end up with Hera accomplishes part of that intent as he'd be related to one version of Sharon (Athena)--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It is a moot point. He had NO relevant to BSG any more since they dropped him as a character. If they didn't drop him as a character I think the perfect end would had been making him that guy that was killed in the mutiny, you know the one that acted as a runner between CIC and some damaged area of the ship to get a damage report for Adama at the near the beginning of the mutiny? He was then later killed by Gaeta's trigger happy Marines when he pushed Adama to the deck, saving his life. That would had been a good way for Boxey to go. He would had been the right age (17) and would had gave his character an ultimate purpose, to save Adama when the time came.
::: Of course it is possible for Boxey and Hera to had gotten together. He would had been 14 years old when Hera was born but with Hera say 20 years old Boxey would had been 34, a reasonable age difference allowable in both our and Colonial Society. And further it would had been another of the shows many ironies and "what goes around, comes around" themes: Boxey, who was taken in by Boomer, an Eight as a quasi foster son, later marries the daughter of Athena, an Eight, who was stolen and then given back by Boomer who was then killed Athena. Imagine all the physiological turmoil that could case Boxey. This show thrived on that sort of thing. LOL [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

== Number Three ==

Couldn't they have sent a Raptor or an FTL-capable ship to find Number Three and bring her to the New Earth with them? It would have been the humane thing to do. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: She was left on a dead-to-humans world, where the only plant life we saw were grasses or other non-edibles, with a background radiation count above the safe level beyond short exposure: even the water was contaminated. She probably died within a few weeks of being left behind. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 12:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Good point. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It was established by Athena in [[The Passage]] that Cylons are far more resistant to radiation than humans are. In fact they bombed [[Caprica]] and the other Colonies with high yield nuclear weapons '''outside''' the cities so they could kill the humans but keep the buildings and infrastructure intact. We saw them settling in [[Caprica City]] in "[[Downloaded]]" even reopening the coffee shops, so radiation is of no problem to them (except for the rare special kind of Nebula radiation at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]) So it is possible for [[D'Anna Biers]] to survive the radiation of Earth One and even drink the rain water. Food on the other hand would be a problem and I saw no evidence of surviving animal life, and this all assumes that she wanted to survive, which I don't think she would due to staying on the radioactive rock in the first place. Still, it would had been a nice thing to try to find her. Maybe a miracle would had happened LOL. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 00:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

== "No Further Significant Revelations..."==

I think this statement in the advisory tag is premature. There's still "The Plan", as well as, in theory, the Caprica series, both of which might provide further revelations with regards to Daybreak and the series itself. Certainly The Plan, anyway. Not to mention the presumed deleted scenes that will be on the DVD and there's a rumor Daybreak will be extended for the DVD as well. There's still a chance for some issues to be resolved. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 13:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:That's interesting. I don't expect The Plan to reveal much of anything about what Kara became or who the Virtual beings were, but Caprica might explore it given the establishment that they appear at times when the cycle of time (machine on human violence) begins. Caprica might provide the answers to the lingering questions if for nothing more than to give fans of BSG a reason to watch. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::Let's hope so, though I don't expect they will reveal much more about the divine powers or the angels, ever. It would take away the mystery and the sense that there is something bigger than us (humans and cylons), now we are left wondering if the divine power is a God, or just a very advanced race (maybe the perpetrators (or their descendents) of the first holocaust during the first cycle are feeling guilty) and I think that's how Ron Moore intended it to be. However, ''Caprica'' may reveal more about colonial history: what happened to Kobol, how did humans move from Kobol to the colonies, why was that history almost completely forgotten (was there a colonial dark age) and who or what were the Lords of Kobol? --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:::I'm sure that many people would agree, or at least theorize, that the virtual beings are Moore's version of the beings of light from the Ship of Lights, especially considering what happened to Kara, which I've seen (here or elsewhere, I forget) compared to what happened to the Starbuck from the original series on the last episode of Galactica 80. I think that the reason why Moore must have decided to leave things vague is that he didn't want to "cheapen it" by introducing something like the Ship of Lights into his show, which was more realistic than the original version. Now that I think about it, when Baltar tells Six that "it" doesn't like to be called God, it could be that "it" is the Ship of Lights or whatever version of it that exist in this version of the story. It would be cool if there was more exploration of this in Caprica, as well as further exploration of the "jealous God" from Kobol (which I'm sure we'll hear more of due to this headmistress in Caprica who doesn't believe in the Lords of Kobol) and all the other lingering questions from the show. In fact, given that religion is an important aspect of Caprica as it was in BSG (RDM) I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more of this down the line. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 17:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::::Hi, guys. Here's my two cents, since I'm the Senior Chief that added the special notice. "No further significant revelations" means "the story is generally over." BSG isn't Star Trek, guys. RDM has stated that there are some elements of the story that he wouldn't resolve, but that he would resolve the important stuff. Is that etched in stone somewhere? No. I'm sure ''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'' may open a few new questions. But until that series debuts, what we have is what we have. Battlestar Wiki allows some speculation because we're talking about a work of fiction. But to speculate further when no further answers are likely and people are making what's otherwise original research--that's [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]], and it's not allowed on Battlestar Wiki. For the purposes of this episode summary because its so long (and must be), we have to keep focus and not overload the article. Episode summaries are the only articles where questions can be asked (provided they don't go out of control) but many questions will not be answered. As soon as the noise dies down we can move some pressing questions to [[BW:OC|our special Q&A page answered by BSG co-producer Bradley Thompson]]. In my opinion, the nature of the Virtual Beings and Kara have been answered as far as RDM wanted to do. They are beings of divine source--and folks, religion is one thing that RDM loved to keep close to his chest to add to the BSG mystique. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::::: I'm not saying that The Plan is going to answer all the unanswered questions, etc. However The Plan has been acknowledged as the coda for this series, and just as important to it as Razor was. However the special notice as I saw it wasn't just in reference to Daybreak, but to the Wiki in general, and that's where I think it's premature. In terms of Daybreak itself, I agree that any additional revelations in The Plan will likely be minor and there are unlikely to be any in Caprica at all relating to that particular episode. But I think questions that come to mind are still worth asking with regards to characters that could be addressed in The Plan. And unless someone has already seen The Plan, or RDM has explicitly stated otherwise, we can't really predict which characters may or may not be addressed. Something that might be interesting once The Plan airs and is analysed is to go through the episode articles and compile the outstanding questions that the series has left unanswered. I think there will be fewer than some think, with the remainder being just enough to put this series into the same league as "The Prisoner" in that people will still be arguing over "what does it mean" 40 years from now. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

== How did the fleet reach Earth 2 / New Earth? ==
As far as I understood it before Galactica departed for the Colony they agreed to a rendezvous location with the fleet. But when jumping away from the colony Starbuck punched in the numbers of the song and Galactica jumped for its last time. But when it reappeared over New Earth the fleet also jumped right in. How did they get the coordinates (a raptor jumping to the rendezvous location?)? But how did they get them so fast? [[User:DJ Doena|DJ Doena]] 14:02, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:Galactica still had a few raptors left (we saw 7 of them landed on Earth) and 12 hours passed between the shot of Galactica jumping near the Moon and the rest of the fleet showing up, nothing fishy going on there. --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::The key here was time pressure. Someone had the coordinates, but with the chaos of getting sucked into a black hole, no one could give them to Kara in time before ''Galactica's'' final jump. When all was stable, someone remembered/recalled the Fleet's coordinates, sent a Raptor, and all was good. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:You missed the letters onscreen spelling "Twelve Hours Later". -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Consolidation change ==

Hey everyone! I just wanted to take a moment to explain the format and consolidation change for Act I. This change is a test for updating the event summary because:

*Each detail does not require a bullet.
*Having bullets for every event make it look redundant.

*However, having bullets between major events makes the summary flow a little better. This was the approach I used when summarizing [[Daybreak, Part I]]. It gives each scene a sense of distinction, like this example.

Are there any other opinions regarding this proposed change? If it's OK, I can start work on the other acts. -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 20:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:Given the massive data, it's okay to condense a few points. But keep it to maybe three or four lines condensed. Any larger and it's hard to follow. Try to keep it looking like the other episode guides as much as possible for consistency. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for the working guideline. As of this writing, Act I & II are done, and starting on the rest. Hope you guys like it! -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 07:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

==The robot at the end==
I corrected an addition in Story Notes that suggested the female robot at the very end is the one that was unveiled only a few days before the broadcast. That would have been very cool, but it's actually the "Actroid" which was unveiled 4 years ago. Interestingly I found Actroid, a 4-year-old technology, to be more lifelike than the one unveiled last week... [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

==The model on the cover of "Sports Limited"==
Here's a challenge for those who watched this on HD sets... I've heard it suggested that the model on the cover of "Sports Limited" (the SI-like magazine seen on the newsstand) might actually be Tricia Helfer. I can't tell at all on the computer-screen I'm using, but it might be a neat bit of trivia (not to mention it would open a line of speculation as to whether the Sixes have survived to the present day) if it's true. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 16:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

== Questions Section ==

I can never be more blunt than I tried to be before on these last two guides. The questions sections follow strict rules [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions/Episode_Guides#Questions_Section]] is the policy on this section. I am going to again clear out the questions section with the bad stuff. Users who do not follow our polices on the [[BW:SAC]] will be warned and if after being warned by doing it again, will be banned. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 02:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== Lie-dector test "question" ==

In the Questions section, somebody asked:'' "During the lie detector test in the flashback scene of William Adama's attempt to secure a civilian job, why did the interrogator ask him if he was a Cylon?"''

This was a control question in order to get a baseline from which to compare the real questions for deception. Such as if a polygraph-operator were to ask "Are you a dinosaur?" This fact was made immediately clear in the dialogue. This was in no way left unclear. It's not a mystery. It's not even a debate.

I've deleted it.

== What year is it "question" ==

Another rediculous addition to the Questions section: ''"What year is it on Earth during the final scene?"''

That too was answered by the title: "150,000 Years Later". Go back 150,000 years from 2009 AD, and you have the answer: 148000 B.C.E.

I've deleted the question.

== Regarding my edits to Questions Section ==

I've removed these three questions:

* Why so many zeros in the Model 0005?
* Does either Battlestar Galactica TV series exist in some form on the new Earth?
* Who or what is God exactly?

The first two are completely and utterly ridiculous and do not have any merit as questions. They will never be answered, and it's simply beneath the scope of what questions should be in that section in the first place.

The third question has been pretty much answered in the series by Baltar, who is essentially the mouthpiece of the writers coda on that subject. In the universe of BSG, God is a force of nature who doesn't like the name "God." -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== Galactica breaking her back ==

Just noticed, Galactica made her final jump with her flight pods out, maybe thats what caused the damage? I mean the extra forces exerted on the ship because of the higher amount of ship to effect. It makes sense that Galactica jumping without her pods retracted would place extraordinary amount of stress on the ship. Every other time even when dropping through the atmosphere at New Caprica the Galactica always had her pods retracted fro a jump.
--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 08:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

:That could very well have been a contributing factor, but there are many other factors in play, too, namely
:*her age,
:*compromises made during construction,
:*accumulated stresses and fractures from past battle damage and the sheer number of jumps,
:*lack of proper dock repair and maintenance,
:*her last sustained pounding at close-range, and ramming into the Colony.
:And consider that Adama and Tigh were told that she only had a few more jumps in her before she suffers structural damage. The old girl was already falling apart.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 13:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I remember that one of the specialists told Adama that Galactica had 5 jumps left max, but nevermind it I just took notice of it and wanted to see what everyone else thought of it. EDIT: Also noticed that Glactica's flight pods went up and down of their own accord after the jump, maybe thats why they retract the pods? I think the Mercuries could non-retract jump because of the way their support struts are placed. By the looks of it the movement of the pods was absolutely massive and that kind of stress would most certainly break Galactica's back no matter what sort of structural damage she had before. --[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 07:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

==Cylon Longevity==

According to [[No Exit]], Ellen and the others created Cavil in the image of her father, so it stands to reason that, 40 years prior to the fall of the colonies, he was already a man in his 70'(s?) and in fact had not aged in those four decades. It can be assumed that the same holds true for the other six humanoid cylons, all of which were considerably younger than him.

The point here is, if humaoid Cylons don't age then the surviving Cylons who didn't make it to Earth wouldn't have died out as it has been speculated, be it from old age or lack of mates to reproduce with. Their longevity could surpass human longevity and they could be alive at the end of the series.

Furthermore there's the issue of boxing. They could have boxed themselves as a form of suspended animation to ensure their survival and programmed Guardian Centurions to watch over them.

All in all, there are many number of ways in which the humanoid Cylons that didn't make it to Earth could have survived. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit: Now that I think about it, what about the Cylons who did make it to Earth? If they don't age, how did they die out? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

: Perhaps aging was only a non-issue when they had resurrection tech. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::You mean, they did age but then transfered their conciousness to younger bodies? That's possible. What about the option to box their conciousness? They could still survive that way (sure, their bodies might die out without some form of suspended animation given that they are biological, but their conciousness could survive as 1s and 0s that could be downloaded into new bodies 150,000 years later). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Removed questions ==

I've removed the following questions:
* Who were/are the Lords of Kobol?
** Good question, but not one with any connection to this episode.
* What year is the present day?
** I'm not sure what this is asking. We are shown that the Colonial's present is 150 000 years before our own.
* Who is the dying leader? Laura Roslin? Galactica? Starbuck?
** The narrative gives us many explicit statements that it is Roslin, and she fits the role perfectly, making it unnecessary to try and jam someone else into the position. Doing so without clear indications from the show is speculation.
* What’s the deal with Kara Thrace?
** She was sent back by "God" as an angel to guide the people to the new Earth. Covered fairly conclusively, if not explicitly.
* What is the true nature of the Head People?
** They were angels, as was stated many times.
* Who or what is guiding events?
** Something akin to "God", though it doesn't like to be called that. I think this is covered sufficiently in the earlier question about why "God" is guiding events.
* Is Virtual Baltar really the archangel Gabriel? If not, is Virtual Leobon? (Assuming they're not actually the same being, that is.)
** Theory without basis in the show.
--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 23:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

== Parallel evolution ==

It is implausible scientifically that Earth humans and Colonials just happened to evolve in parallel without outside influence (possibly from the head beings). Therefore, I wouldn't state it as fact that they're alien to each other -- there is no support for that in the show. The facts are that they can mate and that the characters are surprised about humans existing on Earth, but I wouldn't go as far as drawing conclusions about the origins of Colonials and humans. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

:It could be that in the Galactica universe humans are the standard of life across the universe, which is why they never encountered other life forms during their travels. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:: I covered this on this very talkpage [[#The_Angels_Make_Life_In_This_Galaxy_Boringly_Homogenous. | here. ]] Basically, the [[Angel]]s guide evolution subtly by such means as dropping huge asteroids on the dinosaurs so that they can create dodos in their place. Because of these [[Angel]]s life is the same everywhere right down to identical pianofortes playing [[the Music | All Along The Watchtower. ]]

:: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 18:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::Most importantly, don't forget the suits and ties, which were reinvented by accident or through the collective unconscious. Back to the topic, though - all I'm saying is that the fact that Earth humans are primitive in that era does not necessarily imply that the Colonials evolved totally independently on Kobol and are therefore aliens, as the note in the article stated. No need to make such bold conclusions for the sake of "You know what that actualy means?"-type trivia; we know the visible facts, and they should be reported as such, and we know there is a LOT that we don't know about the head beings, which opens up any number of possibilities for future storytelling. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 20:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::"And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees" The Algae planet could have been terraformed by the 13th Tribe before they reached Earth (maybe they intended to settle there but then learned of the supernova and changed their minds, but not after they had terraformed the planet and built the temple). New Caprica had trees? Wasn't it mostly a desert? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::: I shall address the remarks of Graf Iblis, None Of Your Business, and Man of the Atom together:

::::: What Graf Iblis says could make sense:

::::: Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense.

::::: About the trees on New Caprica, trees on our Earth come in 3 shapes:

* - Cone-Shaped

* - Mushroom-Shaped

* - Palm-Tree-Shaped

::::: For all 3 shapes one can find both angiosperms and gymnosperms. For the Palm-Tree-shaped we even have some ferns too. Convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs probably can explain the trees looking alike.

::::: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 23:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::: If the same tree species, and foxes, and chickens, and so on, can evolve on different planets without terraforming, humans aren't a stretch. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: "Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense." It goes without saying that BSG left people wanting more. One thing I would like to know more about is who the Lords of Kobol were, what their relationship with the Angels/Messengers was, and who the jealous Lord that Elosha mentioned in "Kobol's Last Gleaming" was meant to be. Was he Iblis? Was he God? Was Iblis meant to be God? According to some text on the first season finale's page, RDM wanted Dirk Benedick to play Iblis and introduce himself to Baltar as God. Could this still happen? Did RDM change his mind and made God a "force of nature", or did Iblis/Jealous Lord EVOLVE into a force of nature? Is it that he (it?) doesn't like to be called God because he prefers to be called "Iblis"? Wasn't Iblis refered to as Lord in the original show? (Lord Iblis sounds right to me). Iblis as the one true God who orchestrated everything that happened to the Colonials and the Cylons... wouldn't that be a twist (just like Starbuck being a woman was a twist) on the original? Iblis goes from being Satan to being God... I HOPE that this is explored more deeply in Caprica... How could it NOT be given that it features a religious school, right? What else will those characters talk about if not Colonial theology and the Lords of Kobol (as well as the jealous Lord of Kobol). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-04-28T00:19:21Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Parallel evolution */

== Move ==
Why move this? The way I understand this, this is still episode 20, but it will be lengthened to actually be 3 episodes long. So in a away there are 21/22 episodes even, and not 19. However, [http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/06/battlestars-fin.html This] says that the season will be 11 hours and not 12, but that doesn't mean that we need to get rid of episode 19 already. Especially given that the finale will probably air in at least 2 parts. So it makes some sense to have separate episodes guides for two airings. By production numbers this would be one episode, but split apart by airdate numbers. Maybe we should wait for some further clarification. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:It could be split up into 3 parts in reruns. I think it would be easier to start with a single article and then split as necessary after it airs. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 07:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::If Sci Fi is gonna pull a Miniseries and air this thing in two parts, we should pull a Miniseries too and have [[Miniseries, Night 1|separate]] [[Miniseries, Night 2|articles]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 09:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Which we can do after we know where the break point is. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 09:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to split the article at this time. We won't know how things will be aired until they're actually aired. All we know for now is that the finale's been extended... that's it. Creating two or three sections based on something we have absolutely very little information on is just... ill-advised. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 13:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:The proposal wasn't a split, but a merge with 419 I think (the article exists. It just isn't linked to, because it's an empty skeleton). But the result is the same. The way I understand it, 419+420 will be the finale then, with both episodes running 3 hours together (incl. ads I guess). We'll see. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
::Ah, ok. Sounded like it would be a split, with at least one additional article, seeing as each article would cover an hour. Anyway, we don't have enough information to be certain; it's still really all up in the air, and they have now until doomsday to figure out how to release the thing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

==Title==
''Daybreak, Part 2'' (and ''Part 3'') [http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/09/battlestar-galactica-cruise-book.html according to producer Mark Verheiden].--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 19:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE change the title of the page to Part II & Part III -- It is being sold on iTunes, Amazon, etc. and two completely different episodes and this actually screwed me up immensely because I ended up reading spoilers for Part 3 before I started watching it. Yes, this is how it aired, but it is not how it is being archived. -- [[User:Namtastic|Namtastic]] 13:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Analysis==
"Ronald D. Moore appears in a cameo as the man holding a National Geographic magazine in New York City. "

I think there is much more to it. Ronald D. Moore is appearing as himself reading that article because his knowledge of "Eve" influenced the series. In other words, the series is a result of the events depicted in the series. With that scene, Battlestar Galactica becomes part of Battlestar Galactica.

:This is impossibel since as of 2009 mitochondrial Eve's remains haven't been found yet, this scene is set in the future, after the series ended.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::Checkout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve. First articals apearred in 2003 ;)

It's not the same thing: we've known about mitochondrial Eve since before the series started, but her actual remains have not been found, there were never any bones of her found up to this day.
It's possible that Moore knowing about Eve's existence may have influenced the show, but he has never read an NGC article about the finding of her remains, simply because those remains haven't been found and thus never made their way into an NGC article.
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

==Notes==

I recognised it immediately when watching the episode (and it's already on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_(Battlestar_Galactica)#Outside_references ), the "Kodiak" spacecraft from Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun can be seen among the fleet during this episode.

==(Un)answered questions)==

The following Ron Moore interview clears up some misunderstandings about the show: http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html

1) Kara Thrace's father was NOT the lost cylon Daniel.

2) The Missiles Racetrack's Raptor (accidentally) fires at the cylon colony were nukes that severely damaged the colony and made it fall from its stable orbit into the singularity (black hole) so the colony has been utterly destroyed.

3) The Earth which is discovered in this episode is not the same planet that was discovered in "Revelations." The Earth of "Revelations" was not the planet we now live on, but our Earth was named after it.

There are still a bunch of unanswered questions:

1) What is the nature of the divine power (although this was probably intentionally left unanswered.)

2) Who were the Lords of Kobol and what happened to that world?

3) How did the colonials get from Kobol to the colonies and if they were technologically advanced, how did they loose all knowledge of Kobol, save for some religious texts?

4) What happened to those who nuked the old Earth 2000 years ago, some of these victors would have survived, but they re never seen or heard from.

5) Why didn't Cavil and his cylons try to re-invent resurrection themselves as the technology wasn't that far ahead of them (it was re-invented by the final five on old-Earth in a civilization that hadn't even invented jump drives.)

6) How could the resurrection hub control all resurrection ships while there was never any mention of FTL-communication on the show and why wasn't the resurrection hub integrated into the colony rather than floating around in deep space, vulnerable and guarded by only 2 baseships.

7) Was the colony really the place where all cylons lived, was their civilization so small (and clearly no match for the colonial military before the holocaust) and are there no baseships left out there that still have cylons aboard who want to exact their revenge on humanity? They may die out like the article suggests, but there's nothing stopping them from taking Earth with them (provided they find it within their lifetime.)

8) What happened to the other rebel cylons? Was it just the 3 baseships that rebelled, and if not, where are the other 2's, 6's and 8's?

9) How did Lee get everyone to agree to give up technology (even medical)?

10) Had it not made more sense to build new cities on Earth and rebuild the advanced colonial civilization, when everyone understood how important equal treatment of cylons and humans is, instead of letting Earth's humans build their own civilization thousands of years later, humans who are likely to make the same old mistakes with artificial intelligence and repeat the cycle?

11) How come no intelligent alien life has ever been encountered by colonials or cylons in their histories, but when it finally happens these aliens are identical to humans, who somehow evolved separately from the Kobol humans? Somehow this amazing coincidence being an "act of God" seems like a rather unsatisfactory answer.

12) Since all the fleet's decisions after the Ellen's reapperarance have been about breaking the cycle, is Lee afraid that by having superior technology on earth the cylons and colonials would "enslave" the native population, creating yet another cycle?

-- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

:: He doesn't actually say that about Kara. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

You're right, I've edited my post. -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 21:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

: I'd still like to know the origin of Kara's pristine Viper from her resurrection or how she died going into a gas giant with her corpse resting on a planet light-years away. And what the deal is with the Centurions from "Razor" and the Hybrid they deified. And while I understand his prophesy, I'd like to know why the old Hybrid didn't want Kara to lead a new civilisation to Earth. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:36, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Her being sent back with a new viper was supposed to be an act of the divine power. I think the Razor centurions were explained as regular mutineers, they saw the first hybrid as some kind of prophet because of the way it talked and wanted to protect it from being scrapped. Seeing as how Kara was largely responsible for the end of Cylon civilization, except the few centurions that are still left, this explains why '''CYLON''" hybrids call her the harbinger of death (it was never stated she was the harbinger of death for humanity.) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 20:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Gully, as for question four the Thirteenth Tribe's Earth got nuked by their Centurions. From the surface, not from space. M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). The Final Five secretly built a ship and rebuilt resurrection (Which the 13th Tribe hadn't needed since first achieving reproduction on Kobol). That was how they escaped. -- [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 04:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: Alright, but being centurions the radiation wouldn't really hurt them, they could easily have created their own civilization after the dust settled (a bit like the machines in the "Terminator".) -- [[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Machines can be disabled by radiation, and the impacts themselves would have destroyed the Centurions. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

From the article: “Since the notes of All Along the Watchtower lead to Earth, do they still serve a purpose on Earth?” answer: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen_(film) yes]. -- [[User:LaloMartins|LaloMartins]] 12:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Regarding point six, in [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]], it was stated that, when the [[Resurrection Hub]] jumps, it transmits its' new location to the [[Hybrid]]s, so FTL communication technology definitely exists. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Adding a question on, the CGI Raptor launched ''16'' missiles, why were only 8 shown after the launch scene?--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 06:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

==== What Precisely Killed [[Margaret Edmondson|Racetrack]] and [[Hamish McCall|Skulls]]? ====

The Marines in the rear of the cabin were killed by explosive decompression and vacuum exposure, but Racetrack and Skulls were in sealed pressure suits. I don't recall seeing suit damage in that quick shot of Margaret's hand falling on the missile-launch button. Did the one penetrating rock cause invisible crushing injuries to both of them? It didn't look big enough to hit both of them square on. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 08:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:Skulls whas hit in his face or chest by the rock and there was a small hole in Racetrack's helmet when her hand fell on the button.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

==== [[Delphi]] ====

In the episode "[[Downloaded]]" the cylons were rebuilding the Caprican city of [[Delphi]] and living in it. Was this effort completely abandoned when the Cylons decided to occupy [[New Caprica]]? Or has the effort to recover [[Caprica_(RDM)|Caprica]] continued all this time and is it still occupied? Are there still a substantial number of human-Cylons living on Caprica? Will it become like first Earth before their holocaust, an entirely Cylon-populated society? Are any humans stragglers left alive on either Caprica or New Caprica? -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 09:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

:They likely did leave the colonies after [[Downloaded]], there may still be some baseships out there, but the cylons on them are aging and cannot procreate. Even if they found Earth within their lifetimes a handful of basestars probably don't have enough nukes to obliterate the Earth's surface, that is assuming they'll actually know humans are living on Earth: it's pretty hard to find a stone age culture or neolithic society from space, even when you're actively looking for them (sure the colonials found one tribe, but in order to kill all humans with a limited number of nukes you'd have to know the positions of every tribe on Earth.)
There may be human survivors left on the colonies but it's unlikely: sure, they may have survived the nukes and the radiation, but the cylons actively hunted them down, probably to populations too small to repopulate the planets.--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 00:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== The Angels Make Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. ==

I slept on this, but my original impression after watching Daybreak Park # 2 is that these Angels make things boring:

They create pidgins, dogs, cats, foxes, people, oranges, tuna, et cetera. I would not be surprised if the Angels dropped a big rock on the dinosaurs just so they can have a clean slate for creating rats.

Once they create people, they make the people invent pianos, worship Zeus, Yahweh, Thor, et cetera. They make the people play “All Along The Watchtower”. They see to it that the people create Cylons.

We are not descended from apes, but from # 8s — a little wordplay because 8 and ape sound similar. the mitochondrial DNA of the # 8s is so similar to that of Homo '' neanderthalensis '' that we apparently have a common ancestor, Homo '' heidelbergensis '' half a million years ago even though that is impossible.

If we explore the Galaxy, will only find humans and cylons. ¿What is the point? ¿Why bother exploring?

Arthur C. Clarke in '' 2001 '' had a similar idea of lonely aliens helping intelligent life evolve, but the beings did not care about the final form. In other words, diversity is the rule in '' 2001. ''

We still do not know the nature of these Angels other than that Starbuck seems to be one of them

I do not know how this fits into the article, but it fits into the article somehow. I figure that I should but this on the talkpages for '' Virtual Beings '' and '' Daybreak # 2. ''

----
From Act 10 section of article: "(This is in the year 1987 AD.)" How can it be 1987 when the flat panel TV clearly showed MSNBC logo at the bottom? MSNBC was created in 1996.--[[User:Steven512|Steven512]] 14:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

:Yes, the robots you see in this scene were also developed after 1987 and as far as I know the remains of mitochondrial Eve have never been found.
In 1987 it was discovered that there had been a mitochondrial Eve, this was based on DNA-research among modern humans, her actual remains have not been found to this day so the scene takes place in the near future (it could even be tomorrow), not in 1987!
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

== Hera's Mate = Boxey? ==

From the notes section

''On the second Earth Hera's mate that produced children was most likely human. Saul Tigh and the Leobens would be too old for her. While it was fairly common in ancient times for the men to be far older than their brides (particularly with royalty), for example with the female being as young as 12 and and the male being say 60 to take an extreme, Colonial mores, which are much like our own in real life, would forbid the Leobens from sexual congress with Hera when she reach the accepted reproductive age. On the other hand there were many human children about her age and slightly older in the Fleet. She could had also had children with a human child unborn at the time of the landing on Second Earth perhaps within five years to ten years of her age. It is possible that other hybrid children could had been born after the landing given that the Twos, Sixes, and Eights joined the humans. And it is possible that pure Cylon children could had been born to the age compatible Sixes, Eights, and Leobens but as noted in the series it is difficult if not impossible for a pure Cylon child to come to term making any pool of pure Cylon children that were successfully born very small. Cylon-Human mating with a human male with a Six or a Sharon is very possible with the example of Hera herself an significantly more likely than with a Cylon-Cylon birth, but it is harder than with human-human pairings making any pool of those pairing while much more likely and larger than Cylon-Cylon offspring, still quite small number compared to pure human offspring. Therefore Hera's offspring is most likely with a human. A more remote possibility is with another Cylon-human hybrid. Her producing children with a pure Cylon offspring is the least likely since pure Cylons are the least likely to exist.''

Boxey could be Hera's mate. It would make sense.

Boxey as Y-chromosomal Adam? Or would that be "Adama"? heh--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: The chromosomal Adam live tens of thousands of years after the Mitochondrial Eve.

: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 17:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
::Walabio is right and why would it be more likely for Hera to end up with Boxey instead of with one of the other hundreds of children from the fleet?
--[[User:Gully|Gully]] 18:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

::The ''Y-chromosomal Adam'' reference was to make the pun based on Boxey being Apollo's adopted son in TOS :). As for why it would make sense, it be for no other reason that it would give the RDM version of the character some (belated) importance, which he lacked through the run of the show. Why have her end up with some random kid from the fleet than have her end up with a character who had some level of development? Plus, look at it this way, the original intent according to some references on this site say that the plan was to make Boxey, Tyrol, and Sharon (Boomer) a makeshift family. Having him end up with Hera accomplishes part of that intent as he'd be related to one version of Sharon (Athena)--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 18:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It is a moot point. He had NO relevant to BSG any more since they dropped him as a character. If they didn't drop him as a character I think the perfect end would had been making him that guy that was killed in the mutiny, you know the one that acted as a runner between CIC and some damaged area of the ship to get a damage report for Adama at the near the beginning of the mutiny? He was then later killed by Gaeta's trigger happy Marines when he pushed Adama to the deck, saving his life. That would had been a good way for Boxey to go. He would had been the right age (17) and would had gave his character an ultimate purpose, to save Adama when the time came.
::: Of course it is possible for Boxey and Hera to had gotten together. He would had been 14 years old when Hera was born but with Hera say 20 years old Boxey would had been 34, a reasonable age difference allowable in both our and Colonial Society. And further it would had been another of the shows many ironies and "what goes around, comes around" themes: Boxey, who was taken in by Boomer, an Eight as a quasi foster son, later marries the daughter of Athena, an Eight, who was stolen and then given back by Boomer who was then killed Athena. Imagine all the physiological turmoil that could case Boxey. This show thrived on that sort of thing. LOL [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 23:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

== Number Three ==

Couldn't they have sent a Raptor or an FTL-capable ship to find Number Three and bring her to the New Earth with them? It would have been the humane thing to do. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 15:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

: She was left on a dead-to-humans world, where the only plant life we saw were grasses or other non-edibles, with a background radiation count above the safe level beyond short exposure: even the water was contaminated. She probably died within a few weeks of being left behind. -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 12:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Good point. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It was established by Athena in [[The Passage]] that Cylons are far more resistant to radiation than humans are. In fact they bombed [[Caprica]] and the other Colonies with high yield nuclear weapons '''outside''' the cities so they could kill the humans but keep the buildings and infrastructure intact. We saw them settling in [[Caprica City]] in "[[Downloaded]]" even reopening the coffee shops, so radiation is of no problem to them (except for the rare special kind of Nebula radiation at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]) So it is possible for [[D'Anna Biers]] to survive the radiation of Earth One and even drink the rain water. Food on the other hand would be a problem and I saw no evidence of surviving animal life, and this all assumes that she wanted to survive, which I don't think she would due to staying on the radioactive rock in the first place. Still, it would had been a nice thing to try to find her. Maybe a miracle would had happened LOL. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 00:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

== "No Further Significant Revelations..."==

I think this statement in the advisory tag is premature. There's still "The Plan", as well as, in theory, the Caprica series, both of which might provide further revelations with regards to Daybreak and the series itself. Certainly The Plan, anyway. Not to mention the presumed deleted scenes that will be on the DVD and there's a rumor Daybreak will be extended for the DVD as well. There's still a chance for some issues to be resolved. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 13:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:That's interesting. I don't expect The Plan to reveal much of anything about what Kara became or who the Virtual beings were, but Caprica might explore it given the establishment that they appear at times when the cycle of time (machine on human violence) begins. Caprica might provide the answers to the lingering questions if for nothing more than to give fans of BSG a reason to watch. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::Let's hope so, though I don't expect they will reveal much more about the divine powers or the angels, ever. It would take away the mystery and the sense that there is something bigger than us (humans and cylons), now we are left wondering if the divine power is a God, or just a very advanced race (maybe the perpetrators (or their descendents) of the first holocaust during the first cycle are feeling guilty) and I think that's how Ron Moore intended it to be. However, ''Caprica'' may reveal more about colonial history: what happened to Kobol, how did humans move from Kobol to the colonies, why was that history almost completely forgotten (was there a colonial dark age) and who or what were the Lords of Kobol? --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:::I'm sure that many people would agree, or at least theorize, that the virtual beings are Moore's version of the beings of light from the Ship of Lights, especially considering what happened to Kara, which I've seen (here or elsewhere, I forget) compared to what happened to the Starbuck from the original series on the last episode of Galactica 80. I think that the reason why Moore must have decided to leave things vague is that he didn't want to "cheapen it" by introducing something like the Ship of Lights into his show, which was more realistic than the original version. Now that I think about it, when Baltar tells Six that "it" doesn't like to be called God, it could be that "it" is the Ship of Lights or whatever version of it that exist in this version of the story. It would be cool if there was more exploration of this in Caprica, as well as further exploration of the "jealous God" from Kobol (which I'm sure we'll hear more of due to this headmistress in Caprica who doesn't believe in the Lords of Kobol) and all the other lingering questions from the show. In fact, given that religion is an important aspect of Caprica as it was in BSG (RDM) I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more of this down the line. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 17:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::::Hi, guys. Here's my two cents, since I'm the Senior Chief that added the special notice. "No further significant revelations" means "the story is generally over." BSG isn't Star Trek, guys. RDM has stated that there are some elements of the story that he wouldn't resolve, but that he would resolve the important stuff. Is that etched in stone somewhere? No. I'm sure ''[[Caprica (series)|Caprica]]'' may open a few new questions. But until that series debuts, what we have is what we have. Battlestar Wiki allows some speculation because we're talking about a work of fiction. But to speculate further when no further answers are likely and people are making what's otherwise original research--that's [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]], and it's not allowed on Battlestar Wiki. For the purposes of this episode summary because its so long (and must be), we have to keep focus and not overload the article. Episode summaries are the only articles where questions can be asked (provided they don't go out of control) but many questions will not be answered. As soon as the noise dies down we can move some pressing questions to [[BW:OC|our special Q&A page answered by BSG co-producer Bradley Thompson]]. In my opinion, the nature of the Virtual Beings and Kara have been answered as far as RDM wanted to do. They are beings of divine source--and folks, religion is one thing that RDM loved to keep close to his chest to add to the BSG mystique. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::::: I'm not saying that The Plan is going to answer all the unanswered questions, etc. However The Plan has been acknowledged as the coda for this series, and just as important to it as Razor was. However the special notice as I saw it wasn't just in reference to Daybreak, but to the Wiki in general, and that's where I think it's premature. In terms of Daybreak itself, I agree that any additional revelations in The Plan will likely be minor and there are unlikely to be any in Caprica at all relating to that particular episode. But I think questions that come to mind are still worth asking with regards to characters that could be addressed in The Plan. And unless someone has already seen The Plan, or RDM has explicitly stated otherwise, we can't really predict which characters may or may not be addressed. Something that might be interesting once The Plan airs and is analysed is to go through the episode articles and compile the outstanding questions that the series has left unanswered. I think there will be fewer than some think, with the remainder being just enough to put this series into the same league as "The Prisoner" in that people will still be arguing over "what does it mean" 40 years from now. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

== How did the fleet reach Earth 2 / New Earth? ==
As far as I understood it before Galactica departed for the Colony they agreed to a rendezvous location with the fleet. But when jumping away from the colony Starbuck punched in the numbers of the song and Galactica jumped for its last time. But when it reappeared over New Earth the fleet also jumped right in. How did they get the coordinates (a raptor jumping to the rendezvous location?)? But how did they get them so fast? [[User:DJ Doena|DJ Doena]] 14:02, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:Galactica still had a few raptors left (we saw 7 of them landed on Earth) and 12 hours passed between the shot of Galactica jumping near the Moon and the rest of the fleet showing up, nothing fishy going on there. --[[User:Gully|Gully]] 15:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

::The key here was time pressure. Someone had the coordinates, but with the chaos of getting sucked into a black hole, no one could give them to Kara in time before ''Galactica's'' final jump. When all was stable, someone remembered/recalled the Fleet's coordinates, sent a Raptor, and all was good. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:You missed the letters onscreen spelling "Twelve Hours Later". -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Consolidation change ==

Hey everyone! I just wanted to take a moment to explain the format and consolidation change for Act I. This change is a test for updating the event summary because:

*Each detail does not require a bullet.
*Having bullets for every event make it look redundant.

*However, having bullets between major events makes the summary flow a little better. This was the approach I used when summarizing [[Daybreak, Part I]]. It gives each scene a sense of distinction, like this example.

Are there any other opinions regarding this proposed change? If it's OK, I can start work on the other acts. -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 20:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:Given the massive data, it's okay to condense a few points. But keep it to maybe three or four lines condensed. Any larger and it's hard to follow. Try to keep it looking like the other episode guides as much as possible for consistency. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for the working guideline. As of this writing, Act I & II are done, and starting on the rest. Hope you guys like it! -- [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 07:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

==The robot at the end==
I corrected an addition in Story Notes that suggested the female robot at the very end is the one that was unveiled only a few days before the broadcast. That would have been very cool, but it's actually the "Actroid" which was unveiled 4 years ago. Interestingly I found Actroid, a 4-year-old technology, to be more lifelike than the one unveiled last week... [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 02:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

==The model on the cover of "Sports Limited"==
Here's a challenge for those who watched this on HD sets... I've heard it suggested that the model on the cover of "Sports Limited" (the SI-like magazine seen on the newsstand) might actually be Tricia Helfer. I can't tell at all on the computer-screen I'm using, but it might be a neat bit of trivia (not to mention it would open a line of speculation as to whether the Sixes have survived to the present day) if it's true. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 16:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

== Questions Section ==

I can never be more blunt than I tried to be before on these last two guides. The questions sections follow strict rules [[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions/Episode_Guides#Questions_Section]] is the policy on this section. I am going to again clear out the questions section with the bad stuff. Users who do not follow our polices on the [[BW:SAC]] will be warned and if after being warned by doing it again, will be banned. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 02:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

== Lie-dector test "question" ==

In the Questions section, somebody asked:'' "During the lie detector test in the flashback scene of William Adama's attempt to secure a civilian job, why did the interrogator ask him if he was a Cylon?"''

This was a control question in order to get a baseline from which to compare the real questions for deception. Such as if a polygraph-operator were to ask "Are you a dinosaur?" This fact was made immediately clear in the dialogue. This was in no way left unclear. It's not a mystery. It's not even a debate.

I've deleted it.

== What year is it "question" ==

Another rediculous addition to the Questions section: ''"What year is it on Earth during the final scene?"''

That too was answered by the title: "150,000 Years Later". Go back 150,000 years from 2009 AD, and you have the answer: 148000 B.C.E.

I've deleted the question.

== Regarding my edits to Questions Section ==

I've removed these three questions:

* Why so many zeros in the Model 0005?
* Does either Battlestar Galactica TV series exist in some form on the new Earth?
* Who or what is God exactly?

The first two are completely and utterly ridiculous and do not have any merit as questions. They will never be answered, and it's simply beneath the scope of what questions should be in that section in the first place.

The third question has been pretty much answered in the series by Baltar, who is essentially the mouthpiece of the writers coda on that subject. In the universe of BSG, God is a force of nature who doesn't like the name "God." -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== Galactica breaking her back ==

Just noticed, Galactica made her final jump with her flight pods out, maybe thats what caused the damage? I mean the extra forces exerted on the ship because of the higher amount of ship to effect. It makes sense that Galactica jumping without her pods retracted would place extraordinary amount of stress on the ship. Every other time even when dropping through the atmosphere at New Caprica the Galactica always had her pods retracted fro a jump.
--[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 08:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

:That could very well have been a contributing factor, but there are many other factors in play, too, namely
:*her age,
:*compromises made during construction,
:*accumulated stresses and fractures from past battle damage and the sheer number of jumps,
:*lack of proper dock repair and maintenance,
:*her last sustained pounding at close-range, and ramming into the Colony.
:And consider that Adama and Tigh were told that she only had a few more jumps in her before she suffers structural damage. The old girl was already falling apart.-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 13:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I remember that one of the specialists told Adama that Galactica had 5 jumps left max, but nevermind it I just took notice of it and wanted to see what everyone else thought of it. EDIT: Also noticed that Glactica's flight pods went up and down of their own accord after the jump, maybe thats why they retract the pods? I think the Mercuries could non-retract jump because of the way their support struts are placed. By the looks of it the movement of the pods was absolutely massive and that kind of stress would most certainly break Galactica's back no matter what sort of structural damage she had before. --[[User:CHr0n0sPh3r3|CHr0n0sPh3r3]] 07:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

==Cylon Longevity==

According to [[No Exit]], Ellen and the others created Cavil in the image of her father, so it stands to reason that, 40 years prior to the fall of the colonies, he was already a man in his 70'(s?) and in fact had not aged in those four decades. It can be assumed that the same holds true for the other six humanoid cylons, all of which were considerably younger than him.

The point here is, if humaoid Cylons don't age then the surviving Cylons who didn't make it to Earth wouldn't have died out as it has been speculated, be it from old age or lack of mates to reproduce with. Their longevity could surpass human longevity and they could be alive at the end of the series.

Furthermore there's the issue of boxing. They could have boxed themselves as a form of suspended animation to ensure their survival and programmed Guardian Centurions to watch over them.

All in all, there are many number of ways in which the humanoid Cylons that didn't make it to Earth could have survived. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit: Now that I think about it, what about the Cylons who did make it to Earth? If they don't age, how did they die out? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

: Perhaps aging was only a non-issue when they had resurrection tech. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::You mean, they did age but then transfered their conciousness to younger bodies? That's possible. What about the option to box their conciousness? They could still survive that way (sure, their bodies might die out without some form of suspended animation given that they are biological, but their conciousness could survive as 1s and 0s that could be downloaded into new bodies 150,000 years later). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Removed questions ==

I've removed the following questions:
* Who were/are the Lords of Kobol?
** Good question, but not one with any connection to this episode.
* What year is the present day?
** I'm not sure what this is asking. We are shown that the Colonial's present is 150 000 years before our own.
* Who is the dying leader? Laura Roslin? Galactica? Starbuck?
** The narrative gives us many explicit statements that it is Roslin, and she fits the role perfectly, making it unnecessary to try and jam someone else into the position. Doing so without clear indications from the show is speculation.
* What’s the deal with Kara Thrace?
** She was sent back by "God" as an angel to guide the people to the new Earth. Covered fairly conclusively, if not explicitly.
* What is the true nature of the Head People?
** They were angels, as was stated many times.
* Who or what is guiding events?
** Something akin to "God", though it doesn't like to be called that. I think this is covered sufficiently in the earlier question about why "God" is guiding events.
* Is Virtual Baltar really the archangel Gabriel? If not, is Virtual Leobon? (Assuming they're not actually the same being, that is.)
** Theory without basis in the show.
--[[User:Hylas|Hylas]] 23:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

== Parallel evolution ==

It is implausible scientifically that Earth humans and Colonials just happened to evolve in parallel without outside influence (possibly from the head beings). Therefore, I wouldn't state it as fact that they're alien to each other -- there is no support for that in the show. The facts are that they can mate and that the characters are surprised about humans existing on Earth, but I wouldn't go as far as drawing conclusions about the origins of Colonials and humans. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 19:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

:It could be that in the Galactica universe humans are the standard of life across the universe, which is why they never encountered other life forms during their travels. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:: I covered this on this very talkpage [[#The_Angels_Make_Life_In_This_Galaxy_Boringly_Homogenous. | here. ]] Basically, the [[Angel]]s guide evolution subtly by such means as dropping huge asteroids on the dinosaurs so that they can create dodos in their place. Because of these [[Angel]]s life is the same everywhere right down to identical pianofortes playing [[the Music | All Along The Watchtower. ]]

:: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 18:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::Most importantly, don't forget the suits and ties, which were reinvented by accident or through the collective unconscious. Back to the topic, though - all I'm saying is that the fact that Earth humans are primitive in that era does not necessarily imply that the Colonials evolved totally independently on Kobol and are therefore aliens, as the note in the article stated. No need to make such bold conclusions for the sake of "You know what that actualy means?"-type trivia; we know the visible facts, and they should be reported as such, and we know there is a LOT that we don't know about the head beings, which opens up any number of possibilities for future storytelling. -- [[User:Graf Iblis|Graf Iblis]] 20:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::"And yet no one remarks about the fact that New Caprica and the Algae planet's trees look like Earth trees" The Algae planet could have been terraformed by the 13th Tribe before they reached Earth (maybe they intended to settle there but then learned of the supernova and changed their minds, but not after they had terraformed the planet and built the temple). New Caprica had trees? Wasn't it mostly a desert? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 20:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

::::: I shall address the remarks of Graf Iblis, None Of Your Business, and Man of the Atom together:

::::: What Graf Iblis says could make sense:

::::: Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense.

::::: About the trees on New Caprica, trees on our Earth come in 3 shapes:

* - Cone-Shaped

* - Mushroom-Shaped

* - Palm-Tree-Shaped

::::: For all 3 shapes one can find both angiosperms and gymnosperms. For the Palm-Tree-shaped we even have some ferns too. Convergent evolution like sharks and ichthyosaurs probably can explain the trees looking alike.

::::: [[User:Walabio|Walabio]] 23:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::: If the same tree species, and foxes, and chickens, and so on, can evolve on different planets without terraforming, humans aren't a stretch. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

::::::: "Let us suppose that the [[Angel]]s scooped up humans from Our Earth, took them to Cobol taught them to talk and ruled over them as the [[Lords of Cobol]] 160 thousand years ago. That makes sense." It goes without saying that BSG left people wanting more. One thing I would like to know more about is who the Lords of Kobol were, what their relationship with the Angels/Messengers was, and who the jealous Lord that Elosha mentioned in "Kobol's Last Gleaming" was meant to be. Was he Iblis? Was he God? Was Iblis meant to be God? According to some text on the first season finale's page, RDM wanted Dirk Benedick to play Iblis and introduce himself to Baltar as God. Could this still happen? Did RDM change his mind and made God a "force of nature", or did Iblis/Jealous Lord EVOLVE into a force of nature? Is it that he (it?) doesn't like to be called God because he prefers to be called "Iblis"? Wasn't Iblis refered to as Lord in the original show? (Lord Iblis sounds right to me). Iblis as the one true God who orchestrated everything that happened to the Colonials and the Cylons... wouldn't that be a twist (just like Starbuck being a woman was a twist) on the original? Iblis goes from being Satan to being God... I HOPE that this is explored more deeply in Caprica... How could it NOT be given that it features a religious school, right? What else will those characters talk about if not Colonial theology and the Lords of Kobol (as well as the jealous God). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 00:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-04-26T20:50:47Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Parallel evolution */

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-04-26T20:21:06Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Cylon Longevity */

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-04-26T14:19:38Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Parallel evolution */

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-04-13T00:33:09Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Cylon Longevity */

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-04-12T20:38:56Z

ManofTheAtom:

Talk:Continuity errors (TRS)/Archive 1

2009-03-23T22:25:06Z

ManofTheAtom: /* "Jesus" */

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== Casting Errors ==

Is it clear that the acting change for Zak Adama was for casting reasons, or possibly the change from an extra to a fully fledged actor?
--[[User:Radicaledward|Radicaledward]] 06:21, 9 Aug 2005 (EDT)

[[Image:Bsg-baltar-adar.jpg|1px]]
Linking Baltar/Adar image to this page to "adopt it" (It's not visible, but it's there). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:10, 31 January 2006 (EST)

== "Jesus" ==

So, now that we know that Tigh came from Earth, does that retcon the reference to Jesus from an ad-lib by the actor? Heh--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 21:46, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
:Tigh lived on the original Earth 146,000 years before Jesus lived on ours, so... no. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:55, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

:There's our Jesus, the one from Earth 2. There could have been a Jesus on Earth 1 who originated from Kobol. It be no different from "our" Zeus and "their" Zeus, or their Hera and our Hera, and so on and so forth. Earth 1 could have had its own Jesus, who attained some sort of status that would explain why his name would be uttered in such a manner. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 22:25, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Continuity errors (TRS)/Archive 1

2009-03-23T21:46:26Z

ManofTheAtom:

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-03-23T17:49:34Z

ManofTheAtom: /* "No Further Significant Revelations..." */

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-03-23T14:59:25Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Number Three */

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-03-23T14:58:09Z

ManofTheAtom: /* "No Further Significant Revelations..." */

Talk:Sacred Scrolls/Archive 1

2009-03-23T01:56:35Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Cycle of Time */

Greetings, Jzanjani. I welcome you to the battlestar wiki and want you to know that I appreciate your desire to contribute here. However, your edits to this article baffle me. At present, it has been meticulously arranged to provide the most comprehensive information possible in an objective, well-cited manner with separate sections for interpretation and commentary. If you feel this layout is mistaken, or that there's information which needs to be incuded in this article which we've missed, I would like you to make your case here, on the talk page, before comitting another revision. Thank you for your consideration. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:03, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

==On the Format of Character Quotes==

I think we should agree on a standard format for character quotes. If you look up similar pages to this one on other Wiki databases, for example [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Babylon_5 this one] on Babylon 5, you can see they have a much more attractive quote format. Personally, I find the following quote format to be most attractive:

:"That thing put two rounds into my father's chest!" - ''[[Lee Adama|Captain Lee "Apollo" Adama]], "[[Home, Part I]]"''

or, more directly:

:<tt>Indent, Double Quote, QUOTATION, /Double Quote, dash, italic, NAME, comma, Double Quote, EPISODE, /Double Quote, /italic</tt>

I'm not sure if this comment should be somewhere else, but I think the Sacred Scrolls article in particular could definitely use some cleanup. [[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 16:08, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

:See [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:31, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

:: I would be extatic if you'd post this comment for discussion on the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions|Standards and Conventions]] project page. That's really the best place to discuss such sweeping things.

:: As for using that format here, I don't think it would do for multiple-character exchanges, such as are seen in this article. That format would be fine, though, for, say, the Quote of the Day. That's under discussion at Standards and COnvention, too. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:34, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

==Cycle of Time==
I'm just a little surprised that folks haven't made a correlation between the whole idea of the "Cycle of Time" and another popular science fiction series--Lexx! From the very first movie of that series, the Time Prophet played an important role. The Time Prophet says that the Universe goes through cycles, repeating itself endlessly. She sees the future, not by looking forward, but by looking back into the distant past to previous cycles (but "not clearly"). At one point, Stanley (the incredible loser who is the "hero" of Lexx) comes across a recording from thousands of years ago that the Time Prophet left for him, telling precisely how to get out of the terrible situation he was in at that moment. Likewise, the Time Prophet told the great warrior Kai that the last of his people would one day overthrow a tyrant (His Divine Shadow), but that he himself would be the last of them to fall, murdered by that same tyrant. Weirdly, that is precisely what happened. She says "Time begins and then time ends, and then time begins once again.
It is happening now, it has happened before, it will surely happen again." Sound kinda familiar? [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 19:37, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:Actually a lot of shows do that, i.e. Bablyon 5, others, etc. and it's nothing new; Lexx wasn't very original with that.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:13, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:: The idea of time in eternal cycles certainly is not an original one, as noted in the article. But where was that even hinted at on Babylon 5? Or, for that matter, any other science fiction show? Well, there was a hint of it on Red Dwarf once. Really, I'm curious. [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 02:16, 29 January 2006 (EST)

:::Good question, Zahir. Time loops notwithstanding (say, in "Star Trek" or "Doctor Who"), I can't remember a SF TV show with a cyclical pattern. I know that "The Matrix" movies have a cyclical pattern (until Neo breaks it by its 6th cycle in "Reloaded."). Ricimer could be talking about Valen/Sinclair and his causality loop ("Babylon Squared" and "War Without End" two-parter). Again, that's a time loop more than a cyclical thing. There is also the Christian belief of Christ and resurrection and return (Catholic eucharistic prayer: "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again"). But still, "Matrix" is the closest to what constitutes a non-temporal repeating pattern. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:51, 29 January 2006 (EST)

::::Actually I was referring to Delenn's new age felgercarb and that for millions of years, every 1,000 years (give or take) the Shadows attack the galaxy yet again. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:17, 29 January 2006 (EST)

:::::That's no "Cycle of Time" in the sense of history repeating itself, though, but rather a singular cyclical event that happens time and again to different people until someone finds a way to end it. The circumstances are quite different every time. It's not any different from solar activity cycles or cyclical weather patterns. --[[User:OliverH.|OliverH.]] 05:21, 26 February 2006 (EST)

::::::I was thinking about how the series might end.

What if the humans and Cylons decide to return to Kobol and settle there, thus starting the cycle of time again (12 colonies of man + one Cylon colony)? Like, Adama, Roslin, Baltar, maybe even Zarek just for the irony, Six, Boomer, Starbuck, Lee, etc become that cycle's Lords of Kobol.

With the 12 colonies irradiated, which makes them unhabitable, and Earth... being how it is in Revelations, Kobol is the (only?) logical destination for the fleet, isn't it? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 03:26, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

==Removed==
(START)''"This really ought to be a seperate theory, but I don't know how to do that. I'll just put it here.
The two exodus theory -
This is similar to other theories in that there is a cycle of time which is played out again and again. However in this theory there are two seperate occasions which call for an exodus. The details of each itteration are different, but the overall events are very similar.
The humans leave the Kobol
They settle the colonies
They create AI
The AI rebels and departs
The AI encounters GOD (see below)
The AI returns to destroy humanity
The remnants of humanity flee
The Cylons place humans in situations where they can interact and eventually procreate as GOD commands.
The offspring of Humans and Cylon are elevated above others and worshiped as "Lords of Kobol"
A conflict occurs on Kobol and humanity leaves.
Humanity settles the colonies.
The series has covered most of this so I will pick up at the place where this theory steps off. The AI's leave and they encounter a VAST consciesness created by countless generations of AI that have come before it. The Cylon GOD. An entity that knows everything every cylon-AI has known since the beggining of the cylce. It waits in the Cylon Home world untill the time when the AI's leave the humans, then approaches them and guides them towards their role in the cycle.
One of those roles is to have Cylon-Human babies. These babies are more than human and more than cylon. They are elevated above normal humans and eventually worshiped. They become the "gods" of the humans and the Lords of Kobol.
As has been mentioned in the show for a time humans and gods lived together in peace but eventually something goes wrong. Human nature re-asserts itself and some kind of split takes place. The gods are perhaps too compasionate and man to violent. Or the gods too controlling and man too independent. The gods have conflict among themselves and humans leave to avoid it. maybe the humans have conflict with their gods and kill them. See the jealous god commentary for another possible cause of the split. Either way something necessitates a split. The humans leave to colonize new planets. The gods die out, are dead, kill each other . . .
The cycle begins again.
the cylon GOD continues to watch the cycle replay itself over and over in the hopes that whatever flaw causes the catastrophe on Kobol can be avoided. (notice the skulls on Kobol, the theme of violence when Six talks to Baltar, her claim that what happens there is not God's Will) The violence that continues to cause this conflict is bad, but the Cylon God doesn't want to interfere because what makes humans "human" is their non-determined nature. Their free will. If he meddled in that then they would be no different than cylons.
Eventually the problem is the same one modern religions face - God could create a perfect world with no killing, but there would be no free will and we would not be human any more. This seems to be an over-ridding message of the show. Free will and the flawed nature of humanity. what it finally means to be human. We can also see that the Cylon's only grow to have free will when around humans, but at the same time, they also only grow violent towards one another around humans, then on top of that, they only feel remorse and understand good and bad through that same contact. They become more alive by being around humans.
In fact that was the first line of the mini - Are you alive? Prove it.
The question: "What does it mean to be alive?" is one of the key focuses of the show."''(END)

I'm sorry but like you said you didn't know if this was the place for this: it's really not. If you wanted to debate it or something I guess you could have started it off on the Talk page here, I think that's the place for this, or maybe the Wikipedian Quorum or something. But we really shouldn't post just speculation on these pages, we do have analysis articles but they're really not a Forum, and we try to restrain ourselves in this kind of thing. Good luck around the wiki, and try to check out our Standards and Conventions stuff or lurk for a bit to get the feel of how things work.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:20, 3 May 2006 (CDT)

BTW, I don't have enough time to rewrite this article, but eventually I will and my own interpretation of the events which ''really'' happened (agree or disagree):

A) The humans of the Twelve Colonies ''believe'' that Kobol is the mother-planet, then the 13 Tribes left, 12 to the closely located Twelve Colonies, and one going to the distant Earth. For all we know, they could have had contact with Earth for a time (else how would they have known the name and location) or even had an idea of where the Twelve Colonies were (space exploration surveys in the past and such). Regardless, the Twelve Colonies grow for 2,000 years, then make the Cylons who rebel, and the Rag Tag Fleet led by Galactica runs and eventually finds Kobol again, but they're headed for Earth.

B) What I think ''actually'' happened: Earth is the mother planet. Humans fleeing some sort of cataclysm on Earth find Kobol and settle there. Who knows what the heck the Lords of Kobol were. Anyway, the war between the Lords of Kobol begins on Kobol, and it turns so ugly that according to Roslin "we weren't exiled, we CHOSE to flee". The 12 Tribes go to the Twelve Colonies....and the 12th Tribe goes '''BACK''' to Earth.

Meanwhile, "The Blaze" is just a term describing some stuff in the war between the Gods, it wasn't one particular event (sort of a descriptor for a nuclear war or something in general). The Cylon God is not some alien or person unknown: The Cylons weren't duped into having their own religion as stupid naive souless machines: anything that achieves sentience has claim to soul and to develop its own philosophical/metaphysical concept of a "God". While the humans claim that they have directly interacted with their deities (just as modern Earth religions do), the Cylons have actually never said "and God carved these 15 commandments into rock for us, to be our laws"; they speak of their "God" in the more metaphysical, inspirational sense.

So what I personally think is that it's Earth > Kobol, Kobol > Twelve Colonies AND Kobol > Earth, Twelve Colonies > Earth. And although time might repeat itself, it's not Kobol and Earth ''every'' time: humanity dies and is reborn and such, but it hasn't gone back to specifically Kobol a dozen times. Unless we want some bearded old Kentucky Colonel showing up and saying to us "Earth has actually been colonized SIX times in the past and this will be the SIXTH time have have destroyed it. We've become quite efficient at it". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:46, 3 May 2006 (CDT)

==IRPhydeaux's theory==

''Moved to talk for discussion and cleanup''

This really ought to be a seperate theory, but I don't know how to do that. I'll just put it here.

The two exodus theory -

This is similar to other theories in that there is a cycle of time which is played out again and again. However in this theory there are two seperate occasions which call for an exodus. The details of each itteration are different, but the overall events are very similar.

The humans leave the Kobol

They settle the colonies

They create AI

The AI rebels and departs

The AI encounters GOD (see below)

The AI returns to destroy humanity

The remnants of humanity flee

The Cylons place humans in situations where they can interact and eventually procreate as GOD commands.

The offspring of Humans and Cylon are elevated above others and worshiped as "Lords of Kobol"

A conflict occurs on Kobol and humanity leaves.

Humanity settles the colonies.

The series has covered most of this so I will pick up at the place where this theory steps off. The AI's leave and they encounter a VAST consciesness created by countless generations of AI that have come before it. The Cylon GOD. An entity that knows everything every cylon-AI has known since the beggining of the cylce. It waits in the Cylon Home world untill the time when the AI's leave the humans, then approaches them and guides them towards their role in the cycle.

One of those roles is to have Cylon-Human babies. These babies are more than human and more than cylon. They are elevated above normal humans and eventually worshiped. They become the "gods" of the humans and the Lords of Kobol.

As has been mentioned in the show for a time humans and gods lived together in peace but eventually something goes wrong. Human nature re-asserts itself and some kind of split takes place. The gods are perhaps too compasionate and man to violent. Or the gods too controlling and man too independent. The gods have conflict among themselves and humans leave to avoid it. maybe the humans have conflict with their gods and kill them. See the jealous god commentary for another possible cause of the split. Either way something necessitates a split. The humans leave to colonize new planets. The gods die out, are dead, kill each other . . .

The cycle begins again.

the cylon GOD continues to watch the cycle replay itself over and over in the hopes that whatever flaw causes the catastrophe on Kobol can be avoided. (notice the skulls on Kobol, the theme of violence when Six talks to Baltar, her claim that what happens there is not God's Will) The violence that continues to cause this conflict is bad, but the Cylon God doesn't want to interfere because what makes humans "human" is their non-determined nature. Their free will. If he meddled in that then they would be no different than cylons.

Eventually the problem is the same one modern religions face - God could create a perfect world with no killing, but there would be no free will and we would not be human any more. This seems to be an over-ridding message of the show. Free will and the flawed nature of humanity. what it finally means to be human. We can also see that the Cylon's only grow to have free will when around humans, but at the same time, they also only grow violent towards one another around humans, then on top of that, they only feel remorse and understand good and bad through that same contact. They become more alive by being around humans.

In fact that was the first line of the mini - Are you alive? Prove it.

The question: "What does it mean to be alive?" is one of the key focuses of the show.

== Sacred Scrolls vs Book of Pythia ==
Are they the same thing? Or are the Pythian prophecies a distinct work from the account of the exodus. If they are all/both referred to onscreen as "the Sacred Scrolls", then the way this article is written is fine. If they're treated separately, then we should have a separate "Book of Pythia" article. (And the pythia.jpg can live there.)--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:15, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

:I strongly suspect that the Scrolls are analogous to a sacred collection such as the Torah or the Bible, where the Book of Pythia is akin to the Book of Genesis, Mark, and so on. The context used throughout the series appears to support this. Does Baltar place his hand on anything as he is sworn in? (I know that Roslin didn't.) I'm sure scanning [[Elosha]]'s comments to Roslin may bring up the right context. Ngarnn might also have some insight if he has time. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

::Yes, I said this on the Pythia page: for all we know different "books" were written over different times. BTW, Roslin does put her hand on the scrolls, to complete the shot for shot remake of the famous LBJ on Air Force One. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 12:53, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

:::So... the Book of Pythia pic can move back here? This article deserves at least one pic. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:58, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

::::Maybe one of the other pics of Elosha reading a scroll?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:02, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

== Hand-Written? ==

I just watched "Home: Part II" and I noticed something peculiar. It seems as though all of the copies of the Sacred Scrolls (at least in this episode) are hand-written, rather than printed on a press of some kind. Is that worth mentioning in the article?
[[User:CrimsonLine|CrimsonLine]] 20:42, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

:I thought about that; good catch there. We rarely get to see what Elosha read; this was one of the few times. It may be that the scroll copies are copied by hand from the originals as other real-world religions require of their sacred texts, thus the writing. Good enough speculation since we know this culture has modern electronic printing methods they would normally use. The drawings of Kobol could also be useful to this line of reasoning from the first season episode where Roslin has the visions of the Kobol city (I think it's [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:28, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

::I just assumed it was printed, in an archaic font. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:53, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

Thanks to whoever put the "Form of the Scrolls" section in. I think it accurately captures some interesting information about the show. Just what Doc Cottle ordered! :)
[[User:CrimsonLine|CrimsonLine]] 14:50, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
::That was me, with due credit given to you for inspiring the notion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:08, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

I've found this article to be confusing to read, perhaps not just due to length, but from the mix of information, both derived, plausible and factual. I'm going to go "[[User:Peter Farago|Peter]]" on this article soon to clean up the threads and verify their basis on aired content, using the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad#Derived Content|Derived Content standards]] as a guideline. Knowing how so many have worked hard on this, however, I won't make outright deletions but will go nuts with the <nowiki>{{citation needed}}</nowiki> marker when I find items that don't fit the aired content or appears too much a stretch. Given that we know now that the virtual Six is NOT the actual [[Caprica Six]], much of what has been said by her alone may be in doubt. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:29, 19 September 2006 (CDT)

:In particular the "Three Exodii" theory could stand some revision. But to be honest, I can't be bothered to do it, since it's very complicared and I don't agree with it in the first place. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:35, 13 January 2007 (CST)

:I think all of the "Three Exoduses" theory that follows the bare outline should be deleted. It has a higher word count than all of the quotes combined and is little beside a fan theory peppered with the occasional prophecy. My apologies to those that have worked on it, but I feel that it is entirely out of place and should be placed on a talk page. [[User:Miraba|Miraba]] 14:57, 23 January 2007 (CST)

:: I agree with this. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:14, 23 January 2007 (CST)

Some parts are a bit long. What I'd really like to know, however, is why there is no "Earth is the real homeworld" theory in this article?

You know, the one where it goes: Earth, in the future, has an exodus of some kind, or perhaps a certain group just decides to leave, for any random reason. (An alternative is aliens taking human samples from Earth and taking them to Kobol, which would allow an earlier point of divergence, but the outcome is the same.) Then, the people on Kobol leave because of another catastrophe later down the line. The legend of Earth becomes the legend of a 13th tribe departing long ago. Then we get the 12 Colonies, and the Cylons, etc.

This makes it Earth > Kobol > Colonies. Much simpler, eh?

I'm sure this theory is pretty obvious. So why isn't it presented here? It's just as valid an interpretation as anything else. Is there a reason I don't know? I'm new here, so I'd just like to find out why this omission seems to exist. -[[User:Mysterius|Mysterius]] 01:20, 27 January 2007 (CST)

::Yeah, ideally, we'd have a ''small'' section that outlines two theories: 1.) Mankind originated on Kobol and 2.) Mankind really originated on Earth
::But not such a huge essay, that's one of the biggest pieces of speculation on this wiki. However I recognize that a lot of work probably went into it, so I'd like to hear some other admin opinions on this before I go delete it. Or we move it to some other page, that's clearly marked as speculation and keep this one closer to the facts. The other page could then be linked for people who really want to read it ("Origin of mankind" or something) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:41, 27 January 2007 (CST)

:::As I've noted long ago, I'm OK on the theories as they have merit, but we should keep it brief to minimize fanwanking, and verify that the theories are based on aired content in any case. I recommend a short paragraph for each theory, and that's it. Any further extended discussion can come here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:51, 27 January 2007 (CST)

::::There we go :) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:56, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Looks much better. Simple, informative and brief. Needs a few typo and conventionizing tweaks... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:13, 1 February 2007 (CST)

== More Cleanup ==

I was going through this again, and found it a hard mix of in-universe assessments and out-of-universe notes. Both are needed (an earlier cleanup improved that) but the reading is odd. Maybe the article could withstand some adjustments to put the out-of-universe analysis in footnotes, or redo the article to out-of-universe analysis. I'm looking for the article to look or read like [[Computers]] does. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:25, 17 May 2007 (CDT)
:Nearly all of the out-of-universe stuff is contained in that one note and in "Form of the Scrolls". The note is interesting, but the latter information could be deleted, as it doesn't enhance the points being made there. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:32, 17 May 2007 (CDT)
::This article was peculiar recently in that there were ''questions'' added in what should be an ''encyclopedic'' article. While questions are allowed in episode summaries, the wiki has frowned on asking questions in other articles. It appears awkward by twisting the voice and point-of-view of the article, and weakens the authoritative nature of an article. It's up to readers to form the big questions in their minds (not in the article) and for our editors to add the relevant links in the article for the reader to click for more "clues" in their own interpretation and exploration. The talk page can ask specific questions if desired (but not to get into a deep discussion...take it to our new [http://www.battlestarforum.com bulletin board for that]). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 02:29, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

== Some theological notes ==
Whether its just because writers write what they know, or a deeper meaning (perhaps having to do with history repeating itself) there is a lot fo real world theology mixed into the theology of BSG that I'm surprised you do not pull out in your theology footnotes. Off the top of my head...

A) The exodus. The 12 tribes of Isreal were led across the hostile desert to the promised land by a leader who was destined to lead them to it but never enter it himself. Laura is *clearly* a Moses figure and the journey of the 12 colonies clearly the same.

B) The concept of God sending angles to lead select humans in the right direction occurs many times in Christianity. (Messengers of the Lord do appear a few times in the old testament but they are not codified as the beings we know as angles til the new one, making the apparitions use of the word "angel" in BSG that much more striking.)

C) The idea that man is fallen and his soul must be "saved" is entirely Christian. (And said a couple of times to Baltar by his apparition of Caprica 6.) {{unsigned|Cyberqat}}

Talk:Sacred Scrolls/Archive 1

2009-03-23T01:56:05Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Cycle of Time */

Greetings, Jzanjani. I welcome you to the battlestar wiki and want you to know that I appreciate your desire to contribute here. However, your edits to this article baffle me. At present, it has been meticulously arranged to provide the most comprehensive information possible in an objective, well-cited manner with separate sections for interpretation and commentary. If you feel this layout is mistaken, or that there's information which needs to be incuded in this article which we've missed, I would like you to make your case here, on the talk page, before comitting another revision. Thank you for your consideration. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:03, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

==On the Format of Character Quotes==

I think we should agree on a standard format for character quotes. If you look up similar pages to this one on other Wiki databases, for example [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Babylon_5 this one] on Babylon 5, you can see they have a much more attractive quote format. Personally, I find the following quote format to be most attractive:

:"That thing put two rounds into my father's chest!" - ''[[Lee Adama|Captain Lee "Apollo" Adama]], "[[Home, Part I]]"''

or, more directly:

:<tt>Indent, Double Quote, QUOTATION, /Double Quote, dash, italic, NAME, comma, Double Quote, EPISODE, /Double Quote, /italic</tt>

I'm not sure if this comment should be somewhere else, but I think the Sacred Scrolls article in particular could definitely use some cleanup. [[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 16:08, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

:See [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:31, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

:: I would be extatic if you'd post this comment for discussion on the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions|Standards and Conventions]] project page. That's really the best place to discuss such sweeping things.

:: As for using that format here, I don't think it would do for multiple-character exchanges, such as are seen in this article. That format would be fine, though, for, say, the Quote of the Day. That's under discussion at Standards and COnvention, too. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:34, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

==Cycle of Time==
I'm just a little surprised that folks haven't made a correlation between the whole idea of the "Cycle of Time" and another popular science fiction series--Lexx! From the very first movie of that series, the Time Prophet played an important role. The Time Prophet says that the Universe goes through cycles, repeating itself endlessly. She sees the future, not by looking forward, but by looking back into the distant past to previous cycles (but "not clearly"). At one point, Stanley (the incredible loser who is the "hero" of Lexx) comes across a recording from thousands of years ago that the Time Prophet left for him, telling precisely how to get out of the terrible situation he was in at that moment. Likewise, the Time Prophet told the great warrior Kai that the last of his people would one day overthrow a tyrant (His Divine Shadow), but that he himself would be the last of them to fall, murdered by that same tyrant. Weirdly, that is precisely what happened. She says "Time begins and then time ends, and then time begins once again.
It is happening now, it has happened before, it will surely happen again." Sound kinda familiar? [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 19:37, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:Actually a lot of shows do that, i.e. Bablyon 5, others, etc. and it's nothing new; Lexx wasn't very original with that.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:13, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:: The idea of time in eternal cycles certainly is not an original one, as noted in the article. But where was that even hinted at on Babylon 5? Or, for that matter, any other science fiction show? Well, there was a hint of it on Red Dwarf once. Really, I'm curious. [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 02:16, 29 January 2006 (EST)

:::Good question, Zahir. Time loops notwithstanding (say, in "Star Trek" or "Doctor Who"), I can't remember a SF TV show with a cyclical pattern. I know that "The Matrix" movies have a cyclical pattern (until Neo breaks it by its 6th cycle in "Reloaded."). Ricimer could be talking about Valen/Sinclair and his causality loop ("Babylon Squared" and "War Without End" two-parter). Again, that's a time loop more than a cyclical thing. There is also the Christian belief of Christ and resurrection and return (Catholic eucharistic prayer: "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again"). But still, "Matrix" is the closest to what constitutes a non-temporal repeating pattern. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:51, 29 January 2006 (EST)

::::Actually I was referring to Delenn's new age felgercarb and that for millions of years, every 1,000 years (give or take) the Shadows attack the galaxy yet again. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:17, 29 January 2006 (EST)

:::::That's no "Cycle of Time" in the sense of history repeating itself, though, but rather a singular cyclical event that happens time and again to different people until someone finds a way to end it. The circumstances are quite different every time. It's not any different from solar activity cycles or cyclical weather patterns. --[[User:OliverH.|OliverH.]] 05:21, 26 February 2006 (EST)

::::::I was thinking about how the series might end.

What if the humans and Cylons decide to return to Kobol and settle there, thus starting the cycle of time again (12 colonies of man + one Cylon colony)? Like, Adama, Roslin, Baltar, maybe even Zarek just for the irony, Six, Boomer, Starbuck, Lee, etc become that cycle's Lords of Kobol.

With the 12 colonies irradiated, which makes them unhabitable, and Earth... being how it is in Revelations, Kobol is the (only?) logical destination for the fleet, isn't it? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 03:26, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

:::::::I was close. They did all settle into one world together. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 01:55, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

==Removed==
(START)''"This really ought to be a seperate theory, but I don't know how to do that. I'll just put it here.
The two exodus theory -
This is similar to other theories in that there is a cycle of time which is played out again and again. However in this theory there are two seperate occasions which call for an exodus. The details of each itteration are different, but the overall events are very similar.
The humans leave the Kobol
They settle the colonies
They create AI
The AI rebels and departs
The AI encounters GOD (see below)
The AI returns to destroy humanity
The remnants of humanity flee
The Cylons place humans in situations where they can interact and eventually procreate as GOD commands.
The offspring of Humans and Cylon are elevated above others and worshiped as "Lords of Kobol"
A conflict occurs on Kobol and humanity leaves.
Humanity settles the colonies.
The series has covered most of this so I will pick up at the place where this theory steps off. The AI's leave and they encounter a VAST consciesness created by countless generations of AI that have come before it. The Cylon GOD. An entity that knows everything every cylon-AI has known since the beggining of the cylce. It waits in the Cylon Home world untill the time when the AI's leave the humans, then approaches them and guides them towards their role in the cycle.
One of those roles is to have Cylon-Human babies. These babies are more than human and more than cylon. They are elevated above normal humans and eventually worshiped. They become the "gods" of the humans and the Lords of Kobol.
As has been mentioned in the show for a time humans and gods lived together in peace but eventually something goes wrong. Human nature re-asserts itself and some kind of split takes place. The gods are perhaps too compasionate and man to violent. Or the gods too controlling and man too independent. The gods have conflict among themselves and humans leave to avoid it. maybe the humans have conflict with their gods and kill them. See the jealous god commentary for another possible cause of the split. Either way something necessitates a split. The humans leave to colonize new planets. The gods die out, are dead, kill each other . . .
The cycle begins again.
the cylon GOD continues to watch the cycle replay itself over and over in the hopes that whatever flaw causes the catastrophe on Kobol can be avoided. (notice the skulls on Kobol, the theme of violence when Six talks to Baltar, her claim that what happens there is not God's Will) The violence that continues to cause this conflict is bad, but the Cylon God doesn't want to interfere because what makes humans "human" is their non-determined nature. Their free will. If he meddled in that then they would be no different than cylons.
Eventually the problem is the same one modern religions face - God could create a perfect world with no killing, but there would be no free will and we would not be human any more. This seems to be an over-ridding message of the show. Free will and the flawed nature of humanity. what it finally means to be human. We can also see that the Cylon's only grow to have free will when around humans, but at the same time, they also only grow violent towards one another around humans, then on top of that, they only feel remorse and understand good and bad through that same contact. They become more alive by being around humans.
In fact that was the first line of the mini - Are you alive? Prove it.
The question: "What does it mean to be alive?" is one of the key focuses of the show."''(END)

I'm sorry but like you said you didn't know if this was the place for this: it's really not. If you wanted to debate it or something I guess you could have started it off on the Talk page here, I think that's the place for this, or maybe the Wikipedian Quorum or something. But we really shouldn't post just speculation on these pages, we do have analysis articles but they're really not a Forum, and we try to restrain ourselves in this kind of thing. Good luck around the wiki, and try to check out our Standards and Conventions stuff or lurk for a bit to get the feel of how things work.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:20, 3 May 2006 (CDT)

BTW, I don't have enough time to rewrite this article, but eventually I will and my own interpretation of the events which ''really'' happened (agree or disagree):

A) The humans of the Twelve Colonies ''believe'' that Kobol is the mother-planet, then the 13 Tribes left, 12 to the closely located Twelve Colonies, and one going to the distant Earth. For all we know, they could have had contact with Earth for a time (else how would they have known the name and location) or even had an idea of where the Twelve Colonies were (space exploration surveys in the past and such). Regardless, the Twelve Colonies grow for 2,000 years, then make the Cylons who rebel, and the Rag Tag Fleet led by Galactica runs and eventually finds Kobol again, but they're headed for Earth.

B) What I think ''actually'' happened: Earth is the mother planet. Humans fleeing some sort of cataclysm on Earth find Kobol and settle there. Who knows what the heck the Lords of Kobol were. Anyway, the war between the Lords of Kobol begins on Kobol, and it turns so ugly that according to Roslin "we weren't exiled, we CHOSE to flee". The 12 Tribes go to the Twelve Colonies....and the 12th Tribe goes '''BACK''' to Earth.

Meanwhile, "The Blaze" is just a term describing some stuff in the war between the Gods, it wasn't one particular event (sort of a descriptor for a nuclear war or something in general). The Cylon God is not some alien or person unknown: The Cylons weren't duped into having their own religion as stupid naive souless machines: anything that achieves sentience has claim to soul and to develop its own philosophical/metaphysical concept of a "God". While the humans claim that they have directly interacted with their deities (just as modern Earth religions do), the Cylons have actually never said "and God carved these 15 commandments into rock for us, to be our laws"; they speak of their "God" in the more metaphysical, inspirational sense.

So what I personally think is that it's Earth > Kobol, Kobol > Twelve Colonies AND Kobol > Earth, Twelve Colonies > Earth. And although time might repeat itself, it's not Kobol and Earth ''every'' time: humanity dies and is reborn and such, but it hasn't gone back to specifically Kobol a dozen times. Unless we want some bearded old Kentucky Colonel showing up and saying to us "Earth has actually been colonized SIX times in the past and this will be the SIXTH time have have destroyed it. We've become quite efficient at it". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:46, 3 May 2006 (CDT)

==IRPhydeaux's theory==

''Moved to talk for discussion and cleanup''

This really ought to be a seperate theory, but I don't know how to do that. I'll just put it here.

The two exodus theory -

This is similar to other theories in that there is a cycle of time which is played out again and again. However in this theory there are two seperate occasions which call for an exodus. The details of each itteration are different, but the overall events are very similar.

The humans leave the Kobol

They settle the colonies

They create AI

The AI rebels and departs

The AI encounters GOD (see below)

The AI returns to destroy humanity

The remnants of humanity flee

The Cylons place humans in situations where they can interact and eventually procreate as GOD commands.

The offspring of Humans and Cylon are elevated above others and worshiped as "Lords of Kobol"

A conflict occurs on Kobol and humanity leaves.

Humanity settles the colonies.

The series has covered most of this so I will pick up at the place where this theory steps off. The AI's leave and they encounter a VAST consciesness created by countless generations of AI that have come before it. The Cylon GOD. An entity that knows everything every cylon-AI has known since the beggining of the cylce. It waits in the Cylon Home world untill the time when the AI's leave the humans, then approaches them and guides them towards their role in the cycle.

One of those roles is to have Cylon-Human babies. These babies are more than human and more than cylon. They are elevated above normal humans and eventually worshiped. They become the "gods" of the humans and the Lords of Kobol.

As has been mentioned in the show for a time humans and gods lived together in peace but eventually something goes wrong. Human nature re-asserts itself and some kind of split takes place. The gods are perhaps too compasionate and man to violent. Or the gods too controlling and man too independent. The gods have conflict among themselves and humans leave to avoid it. maybe the humans have conflict with their gods and kill them. See the jealous god commentary for another possible cause of the split. Either way something necessitates a split. The humans leave to colonize new planets. The gods die out, are dead, kill each other . . .

The cycle begins again.

the cylon GOD continues to watch the cycle replay itself over and over in the hopes that whatever flaw causes the catastrophe on Kobol can be avoided. (notice the skulls on Kobol, the theme of violence when Six talks to Baltar, her claim that what happens there is not God's Will) The violence that continues to cause this conflict is bad, but the Cylon God doesn't want to interfere because what makes humans "human" is their non-determined nature. Their free will. If he meddled in that then they would be no different than cylons.

Eventually the problem is the same one modern religions face - God could create a perfect world with no killing, but there would be no free will and we would not be human any more. This seems to be an over-ridding message of the show. Free will and the flawed nature of humanity. what it finally means to be human. We can also see that the Cylon's only grow to have free will when around humans, but at the same time, they also only grow violent towards one another around humans, then on top of that, they only feel remorse and understand good and bad through that same contact. They become more alive by being around humans.

In fact that was the first line of the mini - Are you alive? Prove it.

The question: "What does it mean to be alive?" is one of the key focuses of the show.

== Sacred Scrolls vs Book of Pythia ==
Are they the same thing? Or are the Pythian prophecies a distinct work from the account of the exodus. If they are all/both referred to onscreen as "the Sacred Scrolls", then the way this article is written is fine. If they're treated separately, then we should have a separate "Book of Pythia" article. (And the pythia.jpg can live there.)--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:15, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

:I strongly suspect that the Scrolls are analogous to a sacred collection such as the Torah or the Bible, where the Book of Pythia is akin to the Book of Genesis, Mark, and so on. The context used throughout the series appears to support this. Does Baltar place his hand on anything as he is sworn in? (I know that Roslin didn't.) I'm sure scanning [[Elosha]]'s comments to Roslin may bring up the right context. Ngarnn might also have some insight if he has time. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

::Yes, I said this on the Pythia page: for all we know different "books" were written over different times. BTW, Roslin does put her hand on the scrolls, to complete the shot for shot remake of the famous LBJ on Air Force One. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 12:53, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

:::So... the Book of Pythia pic can move back here? This article deserves at least one pic. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:58, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

::::Maybe one of the other pics of Elosha reading a scroll?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:02, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

== Hand-Written? ==

I just watched "Home: Part II" and I noticed something peculiar. It seems as though all of the copies of the Sacred Scrolls (at least in this episode) are hand-written, rather than printed on a press of some kind. Is that worth mentioning in the article?
[[User:CrimsonLine|CrimsonLine]] 20:42, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

:I thought about that; good catch there. We rarely get to see what Elosha read; this was one of the few times. It may be that the scroll copies are copied by hand from the originals as other real-world religions require of their sacred texts, thus the writing. Good enough speculation since we know this culture has modern electronic printing methods they would normally use. The drawings of Kobol could also be useful to this line of reasoning from the first season episode where Roslin has the visions of the Kobol city (I think it's [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:28, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

::I just assumed it was printed, in an archaic font. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:53, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

Thanks to whoever put the "Form of the Scrolls" section in. I think it accurately captures some interesting information about the show. Just what Doc Cottle ordered! :)
[[User:CrimsonLine|CrimsonLine]] 14:50, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
::That was me, with due credit given to you for inspiring the notion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:08, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

I've found this article to be confusing to read, perhaps not just due to length, but from the mix of information, both derived, plausible and factual. I'm going to go "[[User:Peter Farago|Peter]]" on this article soon to clean up the threads and verify their basis on aired content, using the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad#Derived Content|Derived Content standards]] as a guideline. Knowing how so many have worked hard on this, however, I won't make outright deletions but will go nuts with the <nowiki>{{citation needed}}</nowiki> marker when I find items that don't fit the aired content or appears too much a stretch. Given that we know now that the virtual Six is NOT the actual [[Caprica Six]], much of what has been said by her alone may be in doubt. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:29, 19 September 2006 (CDT)

:In particular the "Three Exodii" theory could stand some revision. But to be honest, I can't be bothered to do it, since it's very complicared and I don't agree with it in the first place. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:35, 13 January 2007 (CST)

:I think all of the "Three Exoduses" theory that follows the bare outline should be deleted. It has a higher word count than all of the quotes combined and is little beside a fan theory peppered with the occasional prophecy. My apologies to those that have worked on it, but I feel that it is entirely out of place and should be placed on a talk page. [[User:Miraba|Miraba]] 14:57, 23 January 2007 (CST)

:: I agree with this. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:14, 23 January 2007 (CST)

Some parts are a bit long. What I'd really like to know, however, is why there is no "Earth is the real homeworld" theory in this article?

You know, the one where it goes: Earth, in the future, has an exodus of some kind, or perhaps a certain group just decides to leave, for any random reason. (An alternative is aliens taking human samples from Earth and taking them to Kobol, which would allow an earlier point of divergence, but the outcome is the same.) Then, the people on Kobol leave because of another catastrophe later down the line. The legend of Earth becomes the legend of a 13th tribe departing long ago. Then we get the 12 Colonies, and the Cylons, etc.

This makes it Earth > Kobol > Colonies. Much simpler, eh?

I'm sure this theory is pretty obvious. So why isn't it presented here? It's just as valid an interpretation as anything else. Is there a reason I don't know? I'm new here, so I'd just like to find out why this omission seems to exist. -[[User:Mysterius|Mysterius]] 01:20, 27 January 2007 (CST)

::Yeah, ideally, we'd have a ''small'' section that outlines two theories: 1.) Mankind originated on Kobol and 2.) Mankind really originated on Earth
::But not such a huge essay, that's one of the biggest pieces of speculation on this wiki. However I recognize that a lot of work probably went into it, so I'd like to hear some other admin opinions on this before I go delete it. Or we move it to some other page, that's clearly marked as speculation and keep this one closer to the facts. The other page could then be linked for people who really want to read it ("Origin of mankind" or something) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:41, 27 January 2007 (CST)

:::As I've noted long ago, I'm OK on the theories as they have merit, but we should keep it brief to minimize fanwanking, and verify that the theories are based on aired content in any case. I recommend a short paragraph for each theory, and that's it. Any further extended discussion can come here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:51, 27 January 2007 (CST)

::::There we go :) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:56, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Looks much better. Simple, informative and brief. Needs a few typo and conventionizing tweaks... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:13, 1 February 2007 (CST)

== More Cleanup ==

I was going through this again, and found it a hard mix of in-universe assessments and out-of-universe notes. Both are needed (an earlier cleanup improved that) but the reading is odd. Maybe the article could withstand some adjustments to put the out-of-universe analysis in footnotes, or redo the article to out-of-universe analysis. I'm looking for the article to look or read like [[Computers]] does. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:25, 17 May 2007 (CDT)
:Nearly all of the out-of-universe stuff is contained in that one note and in "Form of the Scrolls". The note is interesting, but the latter information could be deleted, as it doesn't enhance the points being made there. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:32, 17 May 2007 (CDT)
::This article was peculiar recently in that there were ''questions'' added in what should be an ''encyclopedic'' article. While questions are allowed in episode summaries, the wiki has frowned on asking questions in other articles. It appears awkward by twisting the voice and point-of-view of the article, and weakens the authoritative nature of an article. It's up to readers to form the big questions in their minds (not in the article) and for our editors to add the relevant links in the article for the reader to click for more "clues" in their own interpretation and exploration. The talk page can ask specific questions if desired (but not to get into a deep discussion...take it to our new [http://www.battlestarforum.com bulletin board for that]). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 02:29, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

== Some theological notes ==
Whether its just because writers write what they know, or a deeper meaning (perhaps having to do with history repeating itself) there is a lot fo real world theology mixed into the theology of BSG that I'm surprised you do not pull out in your theology footnotes. Off the top of my head...

A) The exodus. The 12 tribes of Isreal were led across the hostile desert to the promised land by a leader who was destined to lead them to it but never enter it himself. Laura is *clearly* a Moses figure and the journey of the 12 colonies clearly the same.

B) The concept of God sending angles to lead select humans in the right direction occurs many times in Christianity. (Messengers of the Lord do appear a few times in the old testament but they are not codified as the beings we know as angles til the new one, making the apparitions use of the word "angel" in BSG that much more striking.)

C) The idea that man is fallen and his soul must be "saved" is entirely Christian. (And said a couple of times to Baltar by his apparition of Caprica 6.) {{unsigned|Cyberqat}}

Talk:Sacred Scrolls/Archive 1

2009-03-23T01:55:04Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Cycle of Time */

Greetings, Jzanjani. I welcome you to the battlestar wiki and want you to know that I appreciate your desire to contribute here. However, your edits to this article baffle me. At present, it has been meticulously arranged to provide the most comprehensive information possible in an objective, well-cited manner with separate sections for interpretation and commentary. If you feel this layout is mistaken, or that there's information which needs to be incuded in this article which we've missed, I would like you to make your case here, on the talk page, before comitting another revision. Thank you for your consideration. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:03, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

==On the Format of Character Quotes==

I think we should agree on a standard format for character quotes. If you look up similar pages to this one on other Wiki databases, for example [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Babylon_5 this one] on Babylon 5, you can see they have a much more attractive quote format. Personally, I find the following quote format to be most attractive:

:"That thing put two rounds into my father's chest!" - ''[[Lee Adama|Captain Lee "Apollo" Adama]], "[[Home, Part I]]"''

or, more directly:

:<tt>Indent, Double Quote, QUOTATION, /Double Quote, dash, italic, NAME, comma, Double Quote, EPISODE, /Double Quote, /italic</tt>

I'm not sure if this comment should be somewhere else, but I think the Sacred Scrolls article in particular could definitely use some cleanup. [[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 16:08, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

:See [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:31, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

:: I would be extatic if you'd post this comment for discussion on the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions|Standards and Conventions]] project page. That's really the best place to discuss such sweeping things.

:: As for using that format here, I don't think it would do for multiple-character exchanges, such as are seen in this article. That format would be fine, though, for, say, the Quote of the Day. That's under discussion at Standards and COnvention, too. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:34, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

==Cycle of Time==
I'm just a little surprised that folks haven't made a correlation between the whole idea of the "Cycle of Time" and another popular science fiction series--Lexx! From the very first movie of that series, the Time Prophet played an important role. The Time Prophet says that the Universe goes through cycles, repeating itself endlessly. She sees the future, not by looking forward, but by looking back into the distant past to previous cycles (but "not clearly"). At one point, Stanley (the incredible loser who is the "hero" of Lexx) comes across a recording from thousands of years ago that the Time Prophet left for him, telling precisely how to get out of the terrible situation he was in at that moment. Likewise, the Time Prophet told the great warrior Kai that the last of his people would one day overthrow a tyrant (His Divine Shadow), but that he himself would be the last of them to fall, murdered by that same tyrant. Weirdly, that is precisely what happened. She says "Time begins and then time ends, and then time begins once again.
It is happening now, it has happened before, it will surely happen again." Sound kinda familiar? [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 19:37, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:Actually a lot of shows do that, i.e. Bablyon 5, others, etc. and it's nothing new; Lexx wasn't very original with that.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:13, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:: The idea of time in eternal cycles certainly is not an original one, as noted in the article. But where was that even hinted at on Babylon 5? Or, for that matter, any other science fiction show? Well, there was a hint of it on Red Dwarf once. Really, I'm curious. [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 02:16, 29 January 2006 (EST)

:::Good question, Zahir. Time loops notwithstanding (say, in "Star Trek" or "Doctor Who"), I can't remember a SF TV show with a cyclical pattern. I know that "The Matrix" movies have a cyclical pattern (until Neo breaks it by its 6th cycle in "Reloaded."). Ricimer could be talking about Valen/Sinclair and his causality loop ("Babylon Squared" and "War Without End" two-parter). Again, that's a time loop more than a cyclical thing. There is also the Christian belief of Christ and resurrection and return (Catholic eucharistic prayer: "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again"). But still, "Matrix" is the closest to what constitutes a non-temporal repeating pattern. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:51, 29 January 2006 (EST)

::::Actually I was referring to Delenn's new age felgercarb and that for millions of years, every 1,000 years (give or take) the Shadows attack the galaxy yet again. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:17, 29 January 2006 (EST)

:::::That's no "Cycle of Time" in the sense of history repeating itself, though, but rather a singular cyclical event that happens time and again to different people until someone finds a way to end it. The circumstances are quite different every time. It's not any different from solar activity cycles or cyclical weather patterns. --[[User:OliverH.|OliverH.]] 05:21, 26 February 2006 (EST)

::::::I was thinking about how the series might end.

What if the humans and Cylons decide to return to Kobol and settle there, thus starting the cycle of time again (12 colonies of man + one Cylon colony)? Like, Adama, Roslin, Baltar, maybe even Zarek just for the irony, Six, Boomer, Starbuck, Lee, etc become that cycle's Lords of Kobol.

With the 12 colonies irradiated, which makes them unhabitable, and Earth... being how it is in Revelations, Kobol is the (only?) logical destination for the fleet, isn't it? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 03:26, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

:::::::I was close. They did sort of go back in time from our perspective and they did all settle into one world together. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 01:55, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

==Removed==
(START)''"This really ought to be a seperate theory, but I don't know how to do that. I'll just put it here.
The two exodus theory -
This is similar to other theories in that there is a cycle of time which is played out again and again. However in this theory there are two seperate occasions which call for an exodus. The details of each itteration are different, but the overall events are very similar.
The humans leave the Kobol
They settle the colonies
They create AI
The AI rebels and departs
The AI encounters GOD (see below)
The AI returns to destroy humanity
The remnants of humanity flee
The Cylons place humans in situations where they can interact and eventually procreate as GOD commands.
The offspring of Humans and Cylon are elevated above others and worshiped as "Lords of Kobol"
A conflict occurs on Kobol and humanity leaves.
Humanity settles the colonies.
The series has covered most of this so I will pick up at the place where this theory steps off. The AI's leave and they encounter a VAST consciesness created by countless generations of AI that have come before it. The Cylon GOD. An entity that knows everything every cylon-AI has known since the beggining of the cylce. It waits in the Cylon Home world untill the time when the AI's leave the humans, then approaches them and guides them towards their role in the cycle.
One of those roles is to have Cylon-Human babies. These babies are more than human and more than cylon. They are elevated above normal humans and eventually worshiped. They become the "gods" of the humans and the Lords of Kobol.
As has been mentioned in the show for a time humans and gods lived together in peace but eventually something goes wrong. Human nature re-asserts itself and some kind of split takes place. The gods are perhaps too compasionate and man to violent. Or the gods too controlling and man too independent. The gods have conflict among themselves and humans leave to avoid it. maybe the humans have conflict with their gods and kill them. See the jealous god commentary for another possible cause of the split. Either way something necessitates a split. The humans leave to colonize new planets. The gods die out, are dead, kill each other . . .
The cycle begins again.
the cylon GOD continues to watch the cycle replay itself over and over in the hopes that whatever flaw causes the catastrophe on Kobol can be avoided. (notice the skulls on Kobol, the theme of violence when Six talks to Baltar, her claim that what happens there is not God's Will) The violence that continues to cause this conflict is bad, but the Cylon God doesn't want to interfere because what makes humans "human" is their non-determined nature. Their free will. If he meddled in that then they would be no different than cylons.
Eventually the problem is the same one modern religions face - God could create a perfect world with no killing, but there would be no free will and we would not be human any more. This seems to be an over-ridding message of the show. Free will and the flawed nature of humanity. what it finally means to be human. We can also see that the Cylon's only grow to have free will when around humans, but at the same time, they also only grow violent towards one another around humans, then on top of that, they only feel remorse and understand good and bad through that same contact. They become more alive by being around humans.
In fact that was the first line of the mini - Are you alive? Prove it.
The question: "What does it mean to be alive?" is one of the key focuses of the show."''(END)

I'm sorry but like you said you didn't know if this was the place for this: it's really not. If you wanted to debate it or something I guess you could have started it off on the Talk page here, I think that's the place for this, or maybe the Wikipedian Quorum or something. But we really shouldn't post just speculation on these pages, we do have analysis articles but they're really not a Forum, and we try to restrain ourselves in this kind of thing. Good luck around the wiki, and try to check out our Standards and Conventions stuff or lurk for a bit to get the feel of how things work.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:20, 3 May 2006 (CDT)

BTW, I don't have enough time to rewrite this article, but eventually I will and my own interpretation of the events which ''really'' happened (agree or disagree):

A) The humans of the Twelve Colonies ''believe'' that Kobol is the mother-planet, then the 13 Tribes left, 12 to the closely located Twelve Colonies, and one going to the distant Earth. For all we know, they could have had contact with Earth for a time (else how would they have known the name and location) or even had an idea of where the Twelve Colonies were (space exploration surveys in the past and such). Regardless, the Twelve Colonies grow for 2,000 years, then make the Cylons who rebel, and the Rag Tag Fleet led by Galactica runs and eventually finds Kobol again, but they're headed for Earth.

B) What I think ''actually'' happened: Earth is the mother planet. Humans fleeing some sort of cataclysm on Earth find Kobol and settle there. Who knows what the heck the Lords of Kobol were. Anyway, the war between the Lords of Kobol begins on Kobol, and it turns so ugly that according to Roslin "we weren't exiled, we CHOSE to flee". The 12 Tribes go to the Twelve Colonies....and the 12th Tribe goes '''BACK''' to Earth.

Meanwhile, "The Blaze" is just a term describing some stuff in the war between the Gods, it wasn't one particular event (sort of a descriptor for a nuclear war or something in general). The Cylon God is not some alien or person unknown: The Cylons weren't duped into having their own religion as stupid naive souless machines: anything that achieves sentience has claim to soul and to develop its own philosophical/metaphysical concept of a "God". While the humans claim that they have directly interacted with their deities (just as modern Earth religions do), the Cylons have actually never said "and God carved these 15 commandments into rock for us, to be our laws"; they speak of their "God" in the more metaphysical, inspirational sense.

So what I personally think is that it's Earth > Kobol, Kobol > Twelve Colonies AND Kobol > Earth, Twelve Colonies > Earth. And although time might repeat itself, it's not Kobol and Earth ''every'' time: humanity dies and is reborn and such, but it hasn't gone back to specifically Kobol a dozen times. Unless we want some bearded old Kentucky Colonel showing up and saying to us "Earth has actually been colonized SIX times in the past and this will be the SIXTH time have have destroyed it. We've become quite efficient at it". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:46, 3 May 2006 (CDT)

==IRPhydeaux's theory==

''Moved to talk for discussion and cleanup''

This really ought to be a seperate theory, but I don't know how to do that. I'll just put it here.

The two exodus theory -

This is similar to other theories in that there is a cycle of time which is played out again and again. However in this theory there are two seperate occasions which call for an exodus. The details of each itteration are different, but the overall events are very similar.

The humans leave the Kobol

They settle the colonies

They create AI

The AI rebels and departs

The AI encounters GOD (see below)

The AI returns to destroy humanity

The remnants of humanity flee

The Cylons place humans in situations where they can interact and eventually procreate as GOD commands.

The offspring of Humans and Cylon are elevated above others and worshiped as "Lords of Kobol"

A conflict occurs on Kobol and humanity leaves.

Humanity settles the colonies.

The series has covered most of this so I will pick up at the place where this theory steps off. The AI's leave and they encounter a VAST consciesness created by countless generations of AI that have come before it. The Cylon GOD. An entity that knows everything every cylon-AI has known since the beggining of the cylce. It waits in the Cylon Home world untill the time when the AI's leave the humans, then approaches them and guides them towards their role in the cycle.

One of those roles is to have Cylon-Human babies. These babies are more than human and more than cylon. They are elevated above normal humans and eventually worshiped. They become the "gods" of the humans and the Lords of Kobol.

As has been mentioned in the show for a time humans and gods lived together in peace but eventually something goes wrong. Human nature re-asserts itself and some kind of split takes place. The gods are perhaps too compasionate and man to violent. Or the gods too controlling and man too independent. The gods have conflict among themselves and humans leave to avoid it. maybe the humans have conflict with their gods and kill them. See the jealous god commentary for another possible cause of the split. Either way something necessitates a split. The humans leave to colonize new planets. The gods die out, are dead, kill each other . . .

The cycle begins again.

the cylon GOD continues to watch the cycle replay itself over and over in the hopes that whatever flaw causes the catastrophe on Kobol can be avoided. (notice the skulls on Kobol, the theme of violence when Six talks to Baltar, her claim that what happens there is not God's Will) The violence that continues to cause this conflict is bad, but the Cylon God doesn't want to interfere because what makes humans "human" is their non-determined nature. Their free will. If he meddled in that then they would be no different than cylons.

Eventually the problem is the same one modern religions face - God could create a perfect world with no killing, but there would be no free will and we would not be human any more. This seems to be an over-ridding message of the show. Free will and the flawed nature of humanity. what it finally means to be human. We can also see that the Cylon's only grow to have free will when around humans, but at the same time, they also only grow violent towards one another around humans, then on top of that, they only feel remorse and understand good and bad through that same contact. They become more alive by being around humans.

In fact that was the first line of the mini - Are you alive? Prove it.

The question: "What does it mean to be alive?" is one of the key focuses of the show.

== Sacred Scrolls vs Book of Pythia ==
Are they the same thing? Or are the Pythian prophecies a distinct work from the account of the exodus. If they are all/both referred to onscreen as "the Sacred Scrolls", then the way this article is written is fine. If they're treated separately, then we should have a separate "Book of Pythia" article. (And the pythia.jpg can live there.)--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:15, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

:I strongly suspect that the Scrolls are analogous to a sacred collection such as the Torah or the Bible, where the Book of Pythia is akin to the Book of Genesis, Mark, and so on. The context used throughout the series appears to support this. Does Baltar place his hand on anything as he is sworn in? (I know that Roslin didn't.) I'm sure scanning [[Elosha]]'s comments to Roslin may bring up the right context. Ngarnn might also have some insight if he has time. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

::Yes, I said this on the Pythia page: for all we know different "books" were written over different times. BTW, Roslin does put her hand on the scrolls, to complete the shot for shot remake of the famous LBJ on Air Force One. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 12:53, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

:::So... the Book of Pythia pic can move back here? This article deserves at least one pic. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:58, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

::::Maybe one of the other pics of Elosha reading a scroll?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:02, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

== Hand-Written? ==

I just watched "Home: Part II" and I noticed something peculiar. It seems as though all of the copies of the Sacred Scrolls (at least in this episode) are hand-written, rather than printed on a press of some kind. Is that worth mentioning in the article?
[[User:CrimsonLine|CrimsonLine]] 20:42, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

:I thought about that; good catch there. We rarely get to see what Elosha read; this was one of the few times. It may be that the scroll copies are copied by hand from the originals as other real-world religions require of their sacred texts, thus the writing. Good enough speculation since we know this culture has modern electronic printing methods they would normally use. The drawings of Kobol could also be useful to this line of reasoning from the first season episode where Roslin has the visions of the Kobol city (I think it's [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:28, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

::I just assumed it was printed, in an archaic font. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:53, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

Thanks to whoever put the "Form of the Scrolls" section in. I think it accurately captures some interesting information about the show. Just what Doc Cottle ordered! :)
[[User:CrimsonLine|CrimsonLine]] 14:50, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
::That was me, with due credit given to you for inspiring the notion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:08, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

== Cleanup Required ==

I've found this article to be confusing to read, perhaps not just due to length, but from the mix of information, both derived, plausible and factual. I'm going to go "[[User:Peter Farago|Peter]]" on this article soon to clean up the threads and verify their basis on aired content, using the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad#Derived Content|Derived Content standards]] as a guideline. Knowing how so many have worked hard on this, however, I won't make outright deletions but will go nuts with the <nowiki>{{citation needed}}</nowiki> marker when I find items that don't fit the aired content or appears too much a stretch. Given that we know now that the virtual Six is NOT the actual [[Caprica Six]], much of what has been said by her alone may be in doubt. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:29, 19 September 2006 (CDT)

:In particular the "Three Exodii" theory could stand some revision. But to be honest, I can't be bothered to do it, since it's very complicared and I don't agree with it in the first place. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:35, 13 January 2007 (CST)

:I think all of the "Three Exoduses" theory that follows the bare outline should be deleted. It has a higher word count than all of the quotes combined and is little beside a fan theory peppered with the occasional prophecy. My apologies to those that have worked on it, but I feel that it is entirely out of place and should be placed on a talk page. [[User:Miraba|Miraba]] 14:57, 23 January 2007 (CST)

:: I agree with this. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:14, 23 January 2007 (CST)

Some parts are a bit long. What I'd really like to know, however, is why there is no "Earth is the real homeworld" theory in this article?

You know, the one where it goes: Earth, in the future, has an exodus of some kind, or perhaps a certain group just decides to leave, for any random reason. (An alternative is aliens taking human samples from Earth and taking them to Kobol, which would allow an earlier point of divergence, but the outcome is the same.) Then, the people on Kobol leave because of another catastrophe later down the line. The legend of Earth becomes the legend of a 13th tribe departing long ago. Then we get the 12 Colonies, and the Cylons, etc.

This makes it Earth > Kobol > Colonies. Much simpler, eh?

I'm sure this theory is pretty obvious. So why isn't it presented here? It's just as valid an interpretation as anything else. Is there a reason I don't know? I'm new here, so I'd just like to find out why this omission seems to exist. -[[User:Mysterius|Mysterius]] 01:20, 27 January 2007 (CST)

::Yeah, ideally, we'd have a ''small'' section that outlines two theories: 1.) Mankind originated on Kobol and 2.) Mankind really originated on Earth
::But not such a huge essay, that's one of the biggest pieces of speculation on this wiki. However I recognize that a lot of work probably went into it, so I'd like to hear some other admin opinions on this before I go delete it. Or we move it to some other page, that's clearly marked as speculation and keep this one closer to the facts. The other page could then be linked for people who really want to read it ("Origin of mankind" or something) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:41, 27 January 2007 (CST)

:::As I've noted long ago, I'm OK on the theories as they have merit, but we should keep it brief to minimize fanwanking, and verify that the theories are based on aired content in any case. I recommend a short paragraph for each theory, and that's it. Any further extended discussion can come here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:51, 27 January 2007 (CST)

::::There we go :) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:56, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Looks much better. Simple, informative and brief. Needs a few typo and conventionizing tweaks... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:13, 1 February 2007 (CST)

== More Cleanup ==

I was going through this again, and found it a hard mix of in-universe assessments and out-of-universe notes. Both are needed (an earlier cleanup improved that) but the reading is odd. Maybe the article could withstand some adjustments to put the out-of-universe analysis in footnotes, or redo the article to out-of-universe analysis. I'm looking for the article to look or read like [[Computers]] does. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:25, 17 May 2007 (CDT)
:Nearly all of the out-of-universe stuff is contained in that one note and in "Form of the Scrolls". The note is interesting, but the latter information could be deleted, as it doesn't enhance the points being made there. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:32, 17 May 2007 (CDT)
::This article was peculiar recently in that there were ''questions'' added in what should be an ''encyclopedic'' article. While questions are allowed in episode summaries, the wiki has frowned on asking questions in other articles. It appears awkward by twisting the voice and point-of-view of the article, and weakens the authoritative nature of an article. It's up to readers to form the big questions in their minds (not in the article) and for our editors to add the relevant links in the article for the reader to click for more "clues" in their own interpretation and exploration. The talk page can ask specific questions if desired (but not to get into a deep discussion...take it to our new [http://www.battlestarforum.com bulletin board for that]). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 02:29, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

== Some theological notes ==
Whether its just because writers write what they know, or a deeper meaning (perhaps having to do with history repeating itself) there is a lot fo real world theology mixed into the theology of BSG that I'm surprised you do not pull out in your theology footnotes. Off the top of my head...

A) The exodus. The 12 tribes of Isreal were led across the hostile desert to the promised land by a leader who was destined to lead them to it but never enter it himself. Laura is *clearly* a Moses figure and the journey of the 12 colonies clearly the same.

B) The concept of God sending angles to lead select humans in the right direction occurs many times in Christianity. (Messengers of the Lord do appear a few times in the old testament but they are not codified as the beings we know as angles til the new one, making the apparitions use of the word "angel" in BSG that much more striking.)

C) The idea that man is fallen and his soul must be "saved" is entirely Christian. (And said a couple of times to Baltar by his apparition of Caprica 6.) {{unsigned|Cyberqat}}

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-03-22T18:35:00Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Hera's Mate = Boxey? */

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-03-22T18:33:54Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Hera's Mate = Boxey? */

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-03-22T18:31:34Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Hera's Mate = Boxey? */

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-03-22T15:53:12Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Hera's Mate = Boxey? */

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-03-22T15:45:24Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Hera's Mate = Boxey? */

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-03-22T15:44:39Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Hera's Mate = Boxey? */

Talk:Daybreak, Part II/Archive 1

2009-03-22T15:42:55Z

ManofTheAtom: /* The Angels Make Life In This Galaxy Boringly Homogenous. */

Talk:Caprica (series)/Archive 1

2009-03-18T17:47:58Z

ManofTheAtom: /* Page for the pilot */

#Is this for real?
#If this is in the same continuity as the re-imagined series, we won't need a separate namespace for it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:51, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::On the first, it looks it, but, like most people, I'm more inclined to believe things I like.
::I almost posted the second on Quorum, but I decided it was a conclusion we'd all come to anyway. I'm glad I was at least partially right. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:56, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Actually, thinking it through some more, it might be handy to have a namespace for a new series - particularly for projects like the screencap categorization. I'll have to think on how they should coexist. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:00, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::::Just for clarity, you cannot mean an actual namespace like Battlestar Wiki, Podcast, or Sources, since RDM and TOS use the same one. Assuming you mean something like the use of "RDM" as a parenthetical disambiguation term, I disagree. It should never be necessary to disambiguate between RDM and Caprica if they share a continuity. In fact, I think TOS/Caprica name conflicts should be resolved with RDM, as Ronald D. Moore is the creative force behind Caprica, too; it would also avoid a problem if something is mentioned first in Cparica, then in RDM.
::::I think a category would be sufficient for screen capture organization. (It's clearly necessary, anyway.) --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:09, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Yes, I meant the parenthetical suffix. What we have now is, for example, "Screen Captures (TOS)", "Screen Captures (1980)" and "Screen Captures (RDM)". The reason (1980) and (TOS) are separate is that there are numerous other continuities that branch off of TOS and don't include 1980, a concern that wouldn't be relevant for RDM and "Caprica". However, wouldn't we want a category such as "Screen Captures (Caprica)" that would be distinct from "Screen Captures (RDM)"? That's why a parenthetical designation separate from "RDM" might be useful. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:13, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::That's the category I meant. Category:CAP should probably just be [[:Category:RDM]], barring a desire to keep track of things mentioned in the re-imagined series only or Caprica only. Category:Episode Guide (CAP) would suffice for episode pages, which would also be in Category:RDM to indicate continuity, not series. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:20, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::I think this is horribly confusing. The best thing would be to have separate abbreviations for the current series and the RDM universe as a whole, but I don't exactly feel like going through the entire wiki, moving articles, categories and links. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:23, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
Not only is it real, when I saw the first rumor I immediately took it to the "Talk to Mrs.Ron" thread, and asked. She asked Ron, who within 30 minutes responded that yes, he had already publicly pitched it to ScifiChannel and the news sites weren't making it up and it wasn't a rumor. Talk about fan-base connection! Secondly Peter, we do need a template if only for the episodes: I mean Next Generation and Deep Space Nine are in the same continuity, share several characters and even have crossover episodes, but we still use "TNG" and "DS9" stuff to sort the two out. I mean one day they might have a "Caprica" episode called "Resistance". So we have RDM "Resistance" and CAP "Resistance". It's just a convention to use for episode naming really. I mean when Galactica shows up in "Caprica" it'll be the same ship, and we'll still call it "Galactica (RDM)", yes, but "CAP" would be mostly an episode thing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:02, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:I sincerely hope they never give an episode the same name, but I suppose it's possible. I suggest not using " (CAP)" unless that forces it, and, even then, restricting it to that specific usage. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:11, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::Well, most series tend to wind up using 3 letter abbreviations after a while. And yeah even TNG had "The Emissary (TNG)" not to be confused with the pilot episode of Deep Space Nine, "The Emissary (DS9)".--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:14, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

==Abbreviation==
For templating and just basic shorthand, we need an abbreviation we'll officially use for this series, just as ''The Next Generation'' is TNG, ''The Original Series'' is TOS, and Ron D. Moore's ''Battlestar Galactica'' is RDM. I think CAP would be good. Any objections?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:12, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:"Caprica" in full looks better and doesn't take much longer to type, while CAP is visually consistant with RDM and TOS. I don't much care one way or the other. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:14, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::I guess so, well just in case anyone wanted it. I'm not staking a big discussion on this, I'm just tossing ideas around. Whatever works out. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:16, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Oh I just figured this out: both "Caprica" and "Voyager" have 7 letters, but Memory Alpha uses that "VOY" abbreviation all the time. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:17, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::::So will RDM refer to both the RDM universe and the re-imagined series, while CAP refers just to the new spinoff? That is, suppose a new character named "Rigel" shows up in the "Caprica" series. Is she "Rigel (RDM)", or is she "Rigel (CAP)"? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:18, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::She'll be summarily executed and all memory of her erased. ...That is a problem, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:23, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
'''Thought''': There currently exist no pages requiring re-imagined series vs. ''Caprica'' disambiguation. "RDM" is currently used only for things that are part of both continuities.

'''Proposal''': "TNS" should be used for the things only belonging to the re-imagined series, i.e. Episode Guide (RDM) -> Episode Guide (TNS), Screen Captures (RDM) ->Screen Captures (TNS), and things named the same in both (like hypothetical Rigel and Resistance). "RDM" should be used for the entire continuity that Ronald D. Moore has created.

This minimizes changes, but it disambiguates what must be. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:30, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

:I agree that this is probably the best way out of the problem, but I just want to emphasize how very, very much I don't want to make all these changes. We will need to carefully plan what needs to be moved and what does not, in order to avoid inconsistancies and broken links. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:37, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

Well actually I think it can be simpler, and moreover that we didn't want to use "TNS" anymore because it falls back into the "it's a new show, as opposed to the old show" mentality when they're really not comparable. 
'''Thought''': "RDM" covers...the entire "RDMverse" for lack of a better word. 
'''Proposal''': We'll actually keep using "RDM" for '''almost everything''', and "RDM" is the catch-all word for the "RDMverse", HOWEVER, in cases such as "The Hand of God" which is an episode titled "RDM"....we'll just keep calling those "RDM" because there's only a few of them and they're really easy to spot. ****"CAP" would really only be used as an episode guide abbreviation, and when *citing episode articles*.
--->For example, really the only time I think we'd really use "CAP" is like this: "The Cylon War began 52 years before the Fall of the Twelve Colonies <nowiki>([[RDM]]: "[[Colonial Day]]"), and was started when a Centurion named B166ER killed his human commander ([[CAP]]: "[[Cylon Revolt!]]"</nowiki>" check out a couple of pages on Memory Alpha, ones that cover alien races that span multiple tv shows like Klingons and such: that's the format they use to cite stuff between episodes, even though they're in the same continuity. But really, we can't use "BSG" because that means "BattlestarGroup", and not "TNS" because we don't want to stress that it is the new series. They're all part of the "RDMverse", while the current show is ''specifically'' "RDM", and events, objects, and persons on "Caprica" will still be put in the "RDM" category, but episodes will have "CAP". ---->'''Unless of course, you guys want to invent the term "RDMverse" for use on the Wiki as an all-encompassing term'''--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 03:18, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

:CA's solution is really the only reasonable thing to do in the long term, even if it is going to be a bit like a root canal. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:31, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

::Well, we've root-canaled before. Just need more laughing gas. Other wikis ''wish'' to have problems like ours. :) I'm in general agreemnent with CA's idea, though it's going to sting. (Oh, I got the B166ER reference, Merv. It wouldn't be an inappropriate way to start the conflict in this show either, come to think of it...) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:40, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:::I hope I read this right... RDM to TNS? Can I work on a bot that does this for us? Does it have to be right now also? There is no set timetable yet for this to show. I was alsmost going to recommend {{tl|delete}} very early AM. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:50, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

::Well look I'm not so adamant about it that I'm willing to make some sort of Faustian pact in order to see it done, but I'd ''prefer'' if we didn't use "TNS" because "The New Series" makes it sound like we're trying to set it "as opposed to the Old" when really they're not comparable. I don't know what else we could come up with, but I'm working on it. Though I must say, we have several MONTHS before we get more news on this and we've got time to decide! Yes, Spencerian, other wikis do wish for this kind of spinoff info and discussion! :) Anyone ever read "Stranger in a Strange Land"? Sometimes discussions like this remind me of that thing they mention in passing, that a Martian religious epic poem got made by a nestling that turned into a non-corporeal Old One without realizing it, and thus made a work unlike any other: as a result, the Martians themselves are heavily involved in debating this "art", even HOW to judge it, and are unconcerned with the affairs on Earth in the story; and Heinlein mentions that it will take centuries before they're done discussing this vexing dilemma! :) ***Well yeah, indeed, it is ''more'' applicable than B166ER Spencerian: those bots were just used for grunt work, but according to RDM, the Cylons were used for heavy work like mining ''as well as'' soldiers for wars ''between'' the independent Colonies; like, an army of Cylons fighting for Caprica versus and army of Cylons fighting for Gemenon, stop and ask why they're being forced to kill their fellow Cylons all the time; plus they've already got weapons. Yeah, sort of like the Jaffa in that way, actually (the Goa'uld always fought wars which were essentially just petty rivalries between the Goa'uld System Lords, thousands always dying killing their fellow Jaffa for no real reason). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:01, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:::First: Heinlein rules. Excellent reference.
:::Second: When I take a step back, I can see how an outsider might consider some of the discussions/debates of this nature to be silly. Perhaps as silly and arbitrary as Green vs Purple (Green rules!), Black/White vs White/Black (Original Series Star Trek), whether the Chosen realm was [[Memoryalpha:Triannon|created]] in nine days or ten days (which should be obvious to any '''rational''' observer, but the debate raged anyway). However, I'm glad that there are people who care about sweating the details like this, and thoughtful (if sometimes energetic) debate about it is one of the great byproducts of the wiki experience.
:::Lastly, and regarding the abbreviation: I don't really have anything definitive to add, but I do ask that we try to disregard the implementation details at first, and try to come up with the "right" way to do it. When I first saw this, I cringed as I anticipated mass conversion of RDM marks over to a new abbreviation. (I even considered pleading "TOS" citizenship, but I think I'm too young.) However our goal is to be 100% correct in the end, which means not having to explain to a user years from now why the abbreviations are inconsistent. Fortunately, in this case we also likely have considerable lead time, and members with the technical expertise to implement whatever high-level category/abbreviation/etc. decisions that consensus arrives at. As for TNS vs TOS, etc. Even as a heavy editor of the TOS pages, I wasn't offended by a TNS (as I often read TOS as being "The Old... Stuff" anyway). However, technically 1980 is newer than TOS, as is any show in the continuity after this one. TRS? (The Reimagined Series?) Ideally these abbreviations would only be used at intersections in namespaces, but there is also the categories to consider. Would all the new material ALSO fall under RDM (so you have an RDM-wide content area), but then also fall under their own respective categories for their series? Well... there's a lot to consider. But we've got plenty of time, and hopefully we can work smart (as opposed to hard) on this to minimize the grunt work and maximize the accuracy, concision, and organization. Green! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:38, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:I think I misunderstood: I'd prefer to use "RDM" to refer to the current BSG series, not TNS, but for destinguishing screencaps and images and such, yeah TNS is just a technicality yeah. I just don't want to see "The Hand of God (TNS)". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:04, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::How do you feel about Steelviper's "TRS" idea? I rather like it for the increased accuracy. It seems we agree on leaving stuff from the combined continuity marked "RDM" where necessary to disambiguate from TOS or 1980. I just don't think continuing to use "RDM" for episodes and screen captures of the re-imagined series is appropriate, as it uses the same symbol for two related but distinct concepts (which is even worse than using the same symbol for two completely different concepts); it also breaks on characters with the same name, as normally "Foo (RDM)" would be used for a character from ''Caprica'' and, thus, two articles would "rightfully" have the same name. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 15:06, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

:Well first off, "Chosen Realm" and Enterprise as a whole are a poor source of analogy, as it was poor writing. :) --->I'd actually prefer "'''RIS'''" , "Re-Imagined Series" over "TRS" "The Reimagines Series", on account of the fact that visually "TRS" is too similar to "TOS", witha difference of only one letter. New thoughts: I think I'd go with "RIS" for the current series because it is a "Re-Imagining" of TOS Battlestar Galactica's idea about a show centered on Galactica and such, but while "Caprica" is set *IN* the "Re-Imagined Universe", it's not a *DIRECT* "not so much a "remake" as a "Re-Imagining" of the essential concept" thing. ---->Therefore, I think now, I'd want to refer to the universe as a whole as "RDM", and characters places and objects like the planet Caprica, William Adama, and the Battlestar Galactica would be "RDM", but like images and episodes (we might get a name re-used or something else) for the re-imagined version of the series centered on Galactica leadering a rag-tag fleet of survivors would be called "RIS" for Re-Imagined Series, while "Caprica" stuff would be "CAP". So use "RIS" instead of "TRS", but otherwise (if I understand what he said correctly) I think I essentially agree with CA. (Either way, I'd prefer these ideas over "TNS") You guys like that idea?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:27, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:: So basicly everything that is currently ''RDM'' will be changed to ''RIS'' and this new series would be ''CAP''?
:::No. RDM will continue to be used for things which pertain to the RDM continuity/universe. Only those things which need to be disambiguated from CAP within that framework will get the new tag. So, "Boxey (RDM)" will stay "Boxey (RDM)", but "Screen captures (RDM)" will become "Screen captures (TNS)" (or whatever we decide to call it.) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:49, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::::Right.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:30, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

==Suffix discusion==
(This probably deserves its own project sooner or later. We'll get around to it.)
*TNS ("The New Series"): Not good. The series isn't going to be "new" in ten years.
*TRS ("The Re-imagined Series"): Adequate, although it doesn't roll off the tongue.
*RIS ("Re-Imagined Series"): I dislike using both the morpheme and the stem for the abbreviation.
*2003 (by analogy with 1980): Confusing, since the series will continue into at least 2007.

Any other ideas? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:18, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

:Well I'm favoring "RIS". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:30, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

::It sounds like [[Wikipedia:Bris|Bris]], which makes me uncomfortable. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:31, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

:::To be honest, I don't think "bris" is a word your average joe on the street immediately recognizes. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:13, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::::Since I assume you're not Jewish, it doesn't surprise me that you don't think that. I am going on the record as saying "RIS" gives me the jibblies. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:08, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

:I'm putting my vote in for ''TRS'', and I disagree about it not rolling off the tongue. I think it rolls off the tongue just fine. --[[User:Viannah|Viannah]] 16:29, 12 November 2006 (CST)

This is not like '''TNS:Article Name''' or is this '''Article (TNS)'''. Even I am aginist serperate namespaces for articles. I suggested another namespace for Archives, because that is reasonable, but not for "Series". I don't know of any Wikis that do this, other than doing (SERIES) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:37, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:Well like I said check out MemoryAlpha they do this all the time to destinguish the various series. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:00, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::Here are some of your theories put to the test.
:::*http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Star_Trek:_Voyager says it's an "Article"
:::*http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Jeri_Taylor says it's an "Article"
:::*http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine says it's an "article"
:::*http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Memory_Alpha:User_projects is a "Project" page.

::Which means they do not do: ''Star_Trek: Voyager Jeri Taylow''

::Oh.. and TNG goes to '''''Star Trek: The Next Generation'''''. Nothing suggests that they do it this way on MA. Other than when an episode from two diffrerent series has the same name, they do (TNG), (DS9), and so on. Check your sources before you think state a fact. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 20:39, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Calm down; he misunderstood you. As discussed above, there is some imprecision with the usage of the word ''namespace'' here. Namespaces are things like "Battlestar Wiki," "Podcast," or "Sources" that prefix a page name. "TNS," "TRS," and "RIS" would be parenthesized after the page name proper.
:::You might note the more civil tone taken in my mention of this above. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 21:25, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::::I am pretty sure he undesrtanded me because I mentioned it above in the other discussion. I have said that "TNS", "TRS" would be in () but he said they use namespaces, which he knows, because he has worked on these himself. There was was much confusing in his long paragraphs I asked twice for clairfication from him, and he never responded. I was pointing out the differences between the Wiki in which he compares to MA a little to much. I don't because it's very retrictied to what they can do since they are on a hosted "community". --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:44, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

:I'm consciously abusing the term "namespace" here, mainly because I couldn't think of anything better. "Suffix" will work fine, though. Sorry for any confusion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:07, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

::Look I think there's confusion on what's meant by "namespace" and to be honest I don't know exactly what that means; I just meant, in in-article citations, that's how we'd abbreviate it: I mean like I said above, it would be "William Adama: William Adama is the commander of Galactica during the fall of the Twelve Colonies <nowiki>([[RIS]]: [[Miniseries]]), and first joined the colonial military when Cylon Centurions destroyed his humble family moisture farm ([[CAP]]: "[[The Die is Cast]]")</nowiki> that's all, I mean I don't know what changing namespace would entail. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:25, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:::That is display. ''Twelve Colonies ([[RIS]]: [[Miniseries]])'' It's ok to create invaild links if you need to make your point. I do it all the time. But if there was two boxey's bettween CAP and RIS, ''Boxey <nowiki>([[CAP]]: [[Boxey (CAP)|Boxey]])</nowiki>'' to ''Boxey ([[CAP]]: [[Boxey (CAP)|Boxey]])'' --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:34, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I think that unless there was a CAP miniseries as well, that wouldn't be necessary. "William Adama stubbed his toe when he was two ([[SomeCapricaEpisode]]). He would later reflect on this during a cylon attack in "[[SomeGalacticaEpisode]]"." --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

Well that was just to get the ball rolling. Let's get back to figuring out the nuts amd bolts of this when we know more about episodes and casting and such.....one year from now. :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:21, 29 April 2006 (CDT)

==Spinoff?==
I don't think it's accurate to call this a spinoff in the article. It's not a spinoff because it contains none of the same characters or story. It's a prequel. That is like saying Voyager was a spinoff of Deep Space Nine. They are in the same continuity, but Caprica isn't a spinoff. If it were about the Caprica resistance in the current timeline, then it would be a spinoff. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 09:28, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
:Prequels are technically spinoffs. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 09:34, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
::Generally spinoffs keep to the same timeline. You don't normally go backwards in a spinoff do you? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 09:39, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
:::"Star Trek: Enterprise" was both a prequel and a spinoff. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:46, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
::::Thanks for clarification :) --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:48, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
:I disagree. I think a spinoff has to take place within the same timeline, not just the same universe. Voyager is not a spinoff of Deep Space Nine. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 12:19, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
::No, and something is in the same "timeline" if it's in the same "universe". Next Generation was a spinoff of "Star Trek" the Original Series, despite being set 75 years later and featuring none of the original characters in recurring roles. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:15, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I meant the current time, I don't know a better word for that. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
:::[[wikipedia:Spinoff#Variants_of_spin-offs|Wikipedia says:]] "A new series is started with the same theme and existing in the same universe as the original series, but may not necessarily have the same characters. Examples of this type are the Star Trek, Stargate, Law & Order, and CSI series. These are sometimes called franchises." and "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Voyager and Star Trek: Enterprise are also spinoffs of the original series." Not that wikipedia is necessarily definitive (Oregon is "Idaho's Portugal"), but I thought it might help us refine the definition of "spinoff" that we're using. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:22, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
::::The new mag. even states that the series is not final yet. It just out there. Usually a marketing ploy. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 13:32, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::In the IGN interview with RDM and Eick, it seemed to me (IMHO) that Eick was downplaying the possibility (We only have the script and that's it). --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 13:37, 20 August 2006 (CDT)

== The Graystone Family ==

Anyone have any theories as to who the Graystones are? The family of the inventor of the Cylons? The family of Lee and Zak's mother Caroline? Both? [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:45, 20 August 2006 (CDT)

:My initial reation was that the Graystones would be the inventors of the Cylon, definitely. Or perhaps, on the other side of the coin, activists wholly opposed to their creation. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:00, 3 October 2006 (CDT)

::Madbrood's guess is correct. According to an interview with Ron Moore on the SciFi.com website, the Greystones are a family where there is a "Microsoft"-like company that loves to make technology, regardless of whether they should. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:21, 3 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Gods damn, I'm good :D --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 07:10, 4 October 2006 (CDT)

== Starting Production? ==
HHR is reporting that production will begin November, and may be shown on NBC.[http://www.hollywoodnorthreport.com/article.php?Article=3488]. Don't know if this is concrete enough to post in article. I always thought the show might play better on another network. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 05:48, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

== Reality, Meet Fiction. Fiction, Reality. ==

During my morning coffee I chuckled [http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article1695546.ece at this link from a UK newspaper], which is all too relevant to this article. Best quote from a reader:

<blockquote>"Seriously though given the amount of coding errors I detect and fix as an IT specialist I would be more worried that your toaster will toast and butter you instead of the bread."</blockquote>

-- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:42, 4 May 2007 (CDT) ([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contrib Skillz]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|Edit Skillz]])
:I wouldn't mind being "buttered" by [[Number Eight|#8]] :D --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:47, 4 May 2007 (CDT)
::Some honey and cinnamon from the belly button of a Six would be fine too. I'll skip any "French toast" jokes. :) -- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:28, 4 May 2007 (CDT) ([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contrib Skillz]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|Edit Skillz]])
:Link has died. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 11:00, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
::The article's title is "Human rights for robots? We’re getting carried away" on the London ''Times'' Online site. I found a [http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article1695546.ece newer link.] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:00, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

== Sci Fi taking [[FlashGordonWiki:Flash Gordon (Sci Fi Channel)|Flash Gordon]] over this? ==

I remember someone commented along YouTube's upload of [[Razor Flashbacks]] that [[Sci Fi Channel|Sci Fi]] took ''Flash Gordon'' over ''Caprica''.. As I'd highly doubt this is true, just to make certain: simply a rumour or a little more? [[User:DrWho42|DrWho42]] 09:55, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

== Hope? ==

In the latest TV Guide, there's a snippet on page 28 that claims that Mark Stern (SciFi's executive VP of original programming) said, "I just got a call from NBC-Universal. They want us to take another look at the project." (With reference to Caprica.) So, there may be hope yet (in part, likely, due to the writer's strike. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 20:24, 15 January 2008 (CST)
: It would be interesting to see if it ever takes off the ground... On the other hand, if it starts prepping during the strike, will RDM and company be involved in it? Or will they just give the show to someone else? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki — ''New''] 20:38, 15 January 2008 (CST)

== New information from E!Online==

Since we apparently believe this, is it appropriate to add Tamara Adama to the Siblings and Children sections, respectively, of Bill and Joseph's character infoboxes? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:24, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
: That'd work. We just need to make sure to add the proper referencing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 20:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

== Spoiler Policy for the new series? ==
So I was just wondering how far are we willing to go with information coming out of the new series before we call it a spoiler? Our spoiler policy doesn't cover new series, as dealing with an upcoming series is a first for the wiki. Personally I think the information we're getting now counts as premise, and is ok to leave without spoiler warnings, but if in the future we get more detailed information than what we have it may be spoilerific.-- [[User:OrionFour|OrionFour]] 00:12, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
:Good point. I think anything that deals with the plot is a spoiler, but until everything is settled there won't be episode pages. There are a few character pages, but I have no idea how to classify those. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 00:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

==Past or present tense?==
By the way, since the RDM episodes are written in present tense (regarding information on status as of the last episode), I assume all Caprica info should be written in past tense, even when the show is on air? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 15:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:Um, that's tricky, and we have to think of something here, but in general, I'd say no. That's just awkward. They're the same universe, but when reading something about ''Caprica'', I'm reading from that show's POV, which is generally present tense. When including ''Caprica'' information into a TNS article past tense fits though (fixed :) ). Or for people who are dead. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:40, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
::Er, you mean past tense for those latter things, right? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:::But having stuff that takes place both in CAP and 50 years later in TNS in present tense, as well as some of what happens at the same time as CAP in past tense would be even more awkward to me. And some articles, like [[William Adama]] and [[Cylons (RDM)]] will have information from both shows which will feature them (more or less) equally. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Well, it depends on where the information is put IMO. In an article that's exclusive to ''Caprica'' or an existing TNS article? On [[William Adama]] it would naturally be past tense, but I think that reading a Graystone family article or even [[Joseph Adama]] (once he appears on the show), one would expect present tense. On the other hands, the genesis of the Cylons on [[Cylon History]] may be past tense again (that's where it gets ''really'' complicated). It's not really an issue now, but we'll have at least one episode article for ''Caprica'' and perhaps many more. And those would be present tense of course. As said, it's tricky, because we already said that the want to keep the (RDM) disambiguation for both series. But at the same time, I think there should be a different tense depending on the POV. Maybe use something like the <nowiki>{{TOS}}</nowiki> template to keep them apart when possible? A solution for William Adama specifically, could also be to create a childhood article that contains only ''Caprica'' information. But that doesn't work elsewhere. We'll see. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:18, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
::::By the way, in comparison, Memory Alpha uses past tense both for [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Jean-Luc_Picard Jean-Luc Picard] and for [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Jonathan_Archer Jonathan Archer] - even information from "current" series is written in past tense there, but episode summaries for all series are in present tense. In my opinion it makes sense for all articles except for episode ones to use past tense - especially once BSG is over. Also, it will be confusing if the [[Joseph Adama]] article has information from Caprica in the present tense and information from TNS about events that happened after Caprica in the past tense. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::Memory Alpha's system is very silly. Practically everything is in the past tense, because they use an annoying pseudo-historian approach. For a long time they had stuff like "Humans were a species", but at least that is fixed by now. That really hurt. I really, really prefer that we use present tense - it just reads a lot better - but I see the issue with a larger universe like ST, and as you see the issue crops up with ''Caprica'' now. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I happen to agree with Serenity. I also happen to agree that MA's system of doing things verges on the asinine. Here's the short of it, to clarify:
* If an article is ''exclusively'' about ''Caprica'', then it should be written in ''present tense''. Same goes for articles exclusively about the Re-imagined Series.
* If an article spans from ''Caprica'' to the re-imagined series, then:
*# Events occurring ''before'' the [[Miniseries]] (timeline-wise) should be written in the ''past tense''.
*# Events occurring ''during'' and ''after'' the Miniseries (timeline-wise) should be written in the ''present tense''.
I should add that there are a few exceptions to this, such as articles on the history of the Twelve Colonies, etc, but the above works for 95% of the content we have on the wiki. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 17:38, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

== Are we sure we're not getting ahead of ourselves here? ==

I've been thinking, considering that all that is being produced is a pilot, is giving the casting sheets full canonical status a little presumptuous? If the series doesn't get taken up, then we might find a lot of the wiki becomes akin to [[Battlestar Galactica: Year Two proposal]] from TOS. Perhaps some qualifying tags can be added to the content. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 23:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:The pilot has been greenlit and the information from the casting sheet is likely only from the pilot. And even if nothing more than the pilot is produced, it will still have canonical status and the characters will still have articles here. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 23:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:: I find that we have topped what we can do, including the poral which I never expected to have anything other than the introduction. The things in Cylons portal gotta go. It's just got no place right now there. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 23:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:::As for the Cylon portal, I guess you're right, it's too early to add it there. And if anything on the sheet is from episodes other than the pilot, we'll just note which info is from the pilot and which is/was supposed to be in further episodes after the pilot is aired. And if we consider information from Bradley Thompson and Ronald D. Moore given off-screen as canon then I don't see a reason not to consider Caprica canon even if not all of it eventually gets produced. And since the pilot has been greenlit, this will definitely be more than the Year Two proposal anyway. And the articles on new characters have the spoiler tags which warn that they may differ from the final, aired version. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 23:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:I'm not that happy about the inclusion of small details into other articles. The character articles are perfectly fine. The information is valid, but it's largely contained to a few articles. But it shouldn't be spread around freely. A lot can change until the show is aired. For example there is a script from the Miniseries that had all Colonies on one planet. And, for example, a character's home colony can easily be switched. I'm not saying that we should remove it, but further edits to non-Caprica articles should be done carefully. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
:: Concur. Also, if we're to add content to already established articles (Joseph Adama, Tauron, etc) we must note via footnotes that the information is subject to change and is, by no means, final until it is aired. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 06:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Added the footnotes to everything I could remember. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
::::Apropos of small info: [http://www.sidesexpress.com/se_index.cfm?locid=5&task=type&l=5&c=caprica&p=1#sr Mayrs/Brandstatter] are now looking for even more actors. -- [[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 12:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::I am sending my face/picture/resume in. I so want to be that agent. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 14:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::Anyone with an account on that site to get more casting info? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 19:33, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

==Timeline Discrepency?==
The promo material for the series states that it starts 51 years prior to BSG itself and is set at a time before the Colonies are unified. However, this appears to be impossible: in Colonial Day it says the Colonies were unified 52 years earlier, whilst the mini-series states that the Cylon War ended over 40 years ago and then Razor says the war lasted 12.5 years, putting the start of the war between 52 and 53 years before the mini. Taking that into account, by 51 years before the events of BSG, the Colonies should already be unified and at war with the Cylons (an RDM blog post suggests that the Colonies unified because of the war). I would also assume that the Cylons would need many years (a decade or more, surely?) before the war to be fully developed and mass-produced, and their ships to be built. A more sensible starting time for CAPRICA would be 60+ years prior to BSG. A possibly explanation given on other boards is that the mechanical Cylons already exist, maybe even their war machine, and it is the events of CAPRICA that leads to the creation of more advanced AI and the Cylons gaining sentience. Whilst this wouldn't help the simple fact that they should already be at war, it would minimise the damage. Of course, the promo material also states that Graystone's work results in the creation of the very first Cylons, which would seem to rule that out. Hopefully they'll fix this with a caption or something at the start of the pilot, but at the moment it sounds like a continuity error to even dwarf Hero could be in the running here.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 12:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
: Yeah, this is a bit of a timeline discrepancy here, or at least seems that way from the information available online in regard to the production. It would be worth noting, but we need to make sure we note that this is from presently available information. (Also, they may define a "year" differently after all. Interestingly enough, they did define Razor in terms of days, not a breakdown of years/months/days. So they have wiggle room there.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 14:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
==Number of episodes==
Official press release says that, "SCI FI Channel has greenlit production on the new original series Caprica, ordering 20 hours of the drama '''including''' the two-hour pilot,..." so it should be Pilot + 18 episodes, not 21 episodes. --[[User:Deus|Deus]] 08:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

== How is this consistent? ==

Early in BSG, somebody says something along the lines of, "The last time we saw the Cylons they looked like walking toasters." The humans were caught completely off guard by the Cylon infiltrators because nobody realized it was possible for a robot to pass as a human.

Now in this new series, set 50 years before the events of BSG, we have somebody already creating a robot that is a perfect replica of his daughter. By the time of BSG, the idea of robots passing as humans should be very old news.

How is this apparent contradiction resolved?

[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 05:48, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

: It's complicated, and without blowing my NDA out of the water, it's not really what you think... You really have to see Caprica before you go around asking questions of badly reported information. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 06:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
::I believe that the robot replica doesn't actually look human, only the VR avatar does. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 22:37, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

== Page for the pilot ==

How about we create a separate page for the pilot, where we can include e.g. some episode-specific cast info for minor characters? Or is it too early? Also, should we move [[Evelyn Adama]] to [[Shannon Adama]], since the latter is used in ''Caprica'' (apparently they forgot that they already gave her a name)? Or should it stay where it is for now, since that's the only official name until ''Caprica'' airs? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 22:18, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
:For now, as we haven't a name for the pilot or other data to firm it up, let's wait a bit. We'll start getting buzzed by the Sci Fi Channel blitz by midway in the year, if not earlier, I reckon. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:22, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
::Well, I think it would be good to have a place for all the casting info for minor characters that would clutter this page too much. And [[Caprica pilot]] would IMHO be a good temporary name for that.
::And any thoughts on the Evelyn/Shannon thing? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 22:27, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Let's be bold about it and set it up, carefully. But use spoiler tags liberally and use practically no speculation since there's nothing to speculate with. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 02:33, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

== Links Between BSG (RDM) and Caprica (Series) ==

I was wondering if there was a page that covered all the references to Caprica (the series) that have appeared on BSG since the third season (i.e. the Seventh Cylon, Daniel). --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 17:47, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Number Seven/Archive 1

2009-02-20T21:59:24Z

ManofTheAtom:

==Daniel = Cylon God?==

Gotta put it out there...--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 13:27, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
:Kara's father. Obviously. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:06, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
::http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Kara_Thrace%2C_father_of. "According to Ellen, Number Seven was creative, sensitive and an artist." http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Number_Seven "Kara Thrace's father was a pianist and/or composer". Hmmm... Don't you think that if Kara found out that she was a hybrid the first thing she would do is shoot herself in the head? Not only would that be repetitive of Dualla's end, but it doesn't quite sound like a proper ending. Plus, there has to be SOMEONE who is the Cylon God. Why not Daniel? --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 13:48, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
:::It's also quite possible that Kara *is* Daniel - Daniel's genetic code was corrupted, and corruptions in genetic code can alter gender. For example, the real life genetic condition of "Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome" will cause a foetus with male DNA to develop into essentially a female baby (although with no womb, and undescended testes). While Kara does (or did) have a womb and ovaries, and therefore it's not going to be that exact same condition, it's possible that other, similar genetic corruptions could cause this. It's also possible that Cavil/John had just the tiniest bit of remorse, and implanted what was left of Daniel's DNA into Kara's mother to develop - which may both explain her bitterness towards Kara, and her insistence that she had a special predestined purpose - either through John explaining what he was doing (unlikely), or if Kara's mother had no idea how she'd gotten pregnant (ie not having slept with any men and thus having a "miraculous" conception). Just my thoughts, anyway. [[User:Marianne|Marianne]] 20:31, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
:::: If it were a real geneticist speaking, "corrupting the genetic formula" would mean rendering it nonviable. Just so you know. And her resurrection would still be unexplained if she were Cylon. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:03, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
:::::Wouldn't Simon have noticed if Kara was a Cylon during her stay at the Farm when he removed her ovaries and examined her? Putting it another way, wouldn't female Cylon ovaries be different than female human ovaries and thus prove to be inefectual for whatever Simon had planned? As for the destiny, it is possible that human Cylons from either cast (be it the 13th tribe human Cylons or the human Colonial Cylons) could have influenced Kara's life from her infancy? Imagine if it was revealed that Leoben knew Kara's parents, or has been a part of her life in one way or another since she was a child. Or if not Leoben one of the final five? It could be that yes, Daniel IS involved in Kara's destiny, but not because they are the same person, but because he manipulated her from infancy to turn her into a way to guide the Colonials to the 13th Tribe. As yourselves that question; what was there to gain in making Kara the only one who could guide the original colonies to the 13th tribe? Did Daniel (or whoever) do it in order to reveal a grander truth? Furthermore (as proof that Kara cannot be Daniel), whoever made it possible for Kara to know how to find the 13th tribe would have had to know its location himself. That means that none of the seven Colonial Cylons can be involved in that (unless Cavil is privvy to that information, which seems EXTREMELY unlikely). To answer the question of what/who Kara is, one must answer the question of where that information could have credibly originated from.--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 21:59, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
== Just something I noticed ==

Just prior to Sam's surgery to remove the bullet, Kara presses him about 7 - it went like this:

Kara: The seven -- tell me -- please.

Sam: Seven...seven...seven was the...Daniel.

Kara: You're sure about the word?

Sam: Yes

Kara: Daniel

Sam: He died - Daniel died. She was seven.

Note: "she" was seven.

He was rambling, and Ellen used "he"/"him" on a number of occasions - but - it's an interesting "slip" - Daniel...Danielle?

[[User:Svdasein|Svdasein]]
:I'm afraid you're mishearing. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 08:17, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
::No, I also noticed that - it's actually one of the reasons for the theory I wrote above. [[User:Marianne|Marianne]] 11:17, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
:::I'm afraid you're both mishearing. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:09, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
::::I have to disagree, I've replayed that scene about 10 times now to check and to my ears it absolutely clearly says "He died, Daniel died. She was seven". I cannot see it being heard in any other way, it's definitely not the word "he". I mean it could just be Anders' aphasia, or the actor making a verbal slip, but I'm still 100% sure that the word is "she". I'm interested in what makes you so sure of the opposite, Noneofyourbusiness? Has the episode script been released online somewhere or something? [[User:Marianne|Marianne]] 18:47, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
*I'm watching it right now on my DVR. Anders said, "HE was seven", not "she was seven". However, Michael Trucco made a hissing sound right before he said "he". But he certainly said "he", not "she". -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 19:19, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Number Seven/Archive 1

2009-02-16T13:48:25Z

ManofTheAtom:

Talk:Number Seven/Archive 1

2009-02-15T13:27:10Z

ManofTheAtom: New page: ==Daniel = Cylon God?== Gotta put it out there...--~~~~

==Daniel = Cylon God?==

Gotta put it out there...--[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 13:27, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.

2009-01-25T15:38:13Z

ManofTheAtom: /* BG S4.1 in Latin America */ new section

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== Help me Joe B Kenobi, you're my only hope :D ==

Joe,

Firstly i'd like to congratulate you on a top notch job on Battlestar wiki. It never dissapoints and it looks super slick. stupidly enough, i've left it until very recently to actually register, as opposed to just visiting all the time. I'd like to thank you for taking time to read this also and I hope I have not wasted your time by the end of the post.

Basically, I need you help. I am re-creating the BSG seal that sits nicely above the CiC door. I am making it out of wood and all the pieces you see on it are all individually shaped, sprayed, and then assembled. creating the pieces, eg. the caprican crest in the centre are not hard to make. the proplem is the colours used for the paint. I cannot get an accurate reading from a picture of the real thing and most other pictures have a light shining down on it and distorts the colour.

would you, or any of your colleagues know where I could find out the colour chart? it would be greatly appreciated. I am creating it for use in my own home. something to spruce the place up a bit.

Thanks again for taking time out and once again, I hope I did not waste your time as I realise this might a very unorthodox post.

Sincerely

Nick "Joker" Lawless
Galway
Ireland

: Joker, I've replied to you on the Battlestar Forum, and it's certainly ''not'' a waste of my time. Basically, I can probably snag a color chart from the department crew when I'm in Vancouver for the research and cataloging we're doing for the [http://www.battlestarprops.com Battlestar Galactica Props & Costumes Auction]. I can't tell you when exactly I'll be able to get that information to you, but we do plan on interviewing people from the show for the Battlestar Props website, and we do have access to the crew up there. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 16:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

== Razor script ==

I sent you an e-mail before I saw you say that you preferred being contacted here.

It mentioned in the Helena Cain sources that you read the script for Razor. Where'd you read it? -- [[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 21:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

: Well, I've already e-mailed you back. :D (I've readded your comments here, since people may have the same question you do... :-) )

: However, for people who may have the same question on their minds... I am the research assistant for PropWorx's Battlestar Galactica auction, and as such I have access to the production materials (scripts, reference photos, art, etc.) for the show to aid in research. I can't make copies of the scripts available online, since the WGA and the production company would have my head, and will never give me permission to do so. Hence my "on this date, Joe read that this character comes from this place..." notes in the sources pages. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 23:33, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

== Protecting the Ranks Page ==

I read your comment and wanted to ask if you even looked at the reasoning behind my changes. I'm glad to know somebody is here who actually has reliable information because admittedly a lot of what I've got is based on speculation. However as I commented to Serenity, I think it unfair that he constantly reverses all my changes without even looking at them (this isn't the only page I've battled with him over) and I feel like you just did the same thing. If you are going to lock it ok but at least look at the two conflicting versions and decide which parts of each should go up in the interim, because they way it is now, it's simply not fair. I believe some of my changes warrant being up there now such as my removal of ranks for which their is no support at all (Vice Admiral and Senior Chief Petty Officer) and the addition of certain people to the rank lists. I have felt from the time I joined like I couldn't do anything, any changes I made were promptly undone and I felt like if I complained I'd get booted out entirely since he is an administrator, if you want a truely open community everybody has to feel like they can participate and to tell you the truth, I have not felt that way at all. I know you don't want me to take it personally, but if you were in my position, wouldn't you?
: A couple things... I understand where you're coming from. I do see that Serenity contacted you earlier this month via your talk page, explaining his reasons why he reverted your changes when you joined. (You're fear of retribution for offering criticism or complaint is unwarranted, and something you projected upon yourself; simply put, you didn't know either way, but assumed the worst. We can't control that. Fact of the matter is that you didn't respond to him the first time.) That being said, I will ask you this: what would you have done if our roles were reversed?
: As for the issue of reviewing your edits, I did review them. you did make massive changes that were incorrect both factually and aesthetically. There actually is a "senior chief petty officer" rank, for instance, and there is logic behind there being a "vice admiral" rank (or similar, it may be called "senior admiral"), since it's been established that there's a "rear admiral". Further, there was absolutely no need for the "Razor, Part I" and "Razor, Part II" designations you've assigned, since "Razor" is one whole episode. (It has two production numbers for budgetary reasons, since they had to rebuild the sets for "Pegasus" after they'd been struck after Season 3. The production team members I've talked to considers that outing an interesting experience.) Not to mention the capitalization issues that you've added back in—it is bad form to capitalize ranks or titles, unless you're referring to a specific person when doing so, like Commander Adama or Admiral Cain.
: Further, as I noted on Serenity's talk page, I am fully cognizant of the fact that editing the contested article now would be a waste of time and resources for both parties concerned, simply because there is new information available to us that needs to be entered, information that I have access to. Once I get the opportunity to add that data from the reference materials I have, then I'll open it up again, and then both sides can make the determination on whether or not this issue was really worth all the hassle. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 05:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

== Military Ranks ==

Just a few concluding remarks I don't blame you for what you did, where I in your position I would have done the same thing. The reason I didn't respond to Serenity's first post was because until yesterday I had been unable to figure out how. As far as fear of retribution, I've never really been involved with a wiki before so I wasn't really sure what to expect and was kind of intimidated. I appreciate you're addressing my issues. Not only did it help me understand why things were happening the way they were, but it also made me feel like my input was welcome and that was all I was asking for. I am anxious to see any clarification you can offer in the weeks ahead because I find this a rather fascinating topic.

Thanks again for the clarification. {{unsigned|Grandmaester314}}

==MKI Viper in S4E1==
Joe,
It took me several views before I noticed that there was one there. In S4E1: He That Believeth In Me, at about 4:30, look at the Viper behind Tyrol when he yells 'Get that showboat bird in the tubes!'. You can see that it's the older style by the square wing, instead of the more triangular ones on the newer versions. I only noticed it when my computer happened to freeze at that exact moment-I saw it, and thought 'Hey, that's the MKI from the miniseries!'
That's the only other time I've ever seen it, I never shows up in the battle, it just looks like another cool little reference to the original series. {{unsigned|Marauder Pilot}}

:I don't see it. If you mean the one in the foreground, that's clearly a Mark II engine-wise. You can't even the see´forward edge of the wing because some deckhands are standing in front of it. The one in the background is a Mark II as well. And then he walks by a Mark VII on the right. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:17, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

:: Referencing the available production materials (script and photos), as well as footage from the screen, it's a Mark II. Not a Mark I. They don't have a standing Mark I Viper anyway, just Mark IIs and Mark VIIs. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 01:54, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

:::Yeah, that's what I thought. Would have surprised me. It might ''theoretically'' be one of the planes in the CGI set extension, but that's somewhat unlikely as well. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:54, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

== Question Regarding BSG Forum Administration ==

I'm just curious why we have to log into the media section separately, particularly seeing as we have the same login for the main forum and the media page. Please excuse my ignorance.
[[User:Grandmaester314|Grandmaester314]] 13:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

: From a technical standpoint, it is a different website, as are the German, Spanish, and other versions. Therefore, they require that you log into those, although your username and password are all synchronized so that they're all the same across the Wiki network. A bit annoying, but there's nothing we can really do about it, until the MediaWiki developers devise a better system. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 16:49, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

== Font search ==

Hi Joe.
Do you know what type of Font is used here:
http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/4/4a/Bscap243.jpg

--[[User:Enabran|Enabran]] 16:40, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

: It's a font in the OCR font series... I'll see if I can get some time later to find the specific font. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 17:05, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

:: Great :-) Thank you. If you need, I have made an "straightened" version of the recon-pic... --[[User:Enabran|Enabran]] 18:43, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

:::Actually, I have the original files from the art department.... Which may be released into the public eventually. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:49, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

::::Hi Joe. Have you find out the right font? --[[User:Enabran|Enabran]] 23:34, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

:::::The font is called [http://www.myfonts.com/PurchaseOptions?id[]=137952 OCR-A EF]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 23:39, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

::::::Thank you very much :-)

== Rank graphics==

Fixed the graphics for warrant officer and lieutenant colonel. *Now* they match the auction photos, eh? :)-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 01:59, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

== Welcome Back! ==

Your exploits of late are legendary, sir. I can only guess how abso-frakkin'-lutely awesome it was to attend the Ultimate Frak Party. You'll need to document the highlights, especially if you've had the opportunity to tell us all how popular the wiki is among the BSG cognoscenti. I would guess, fairly so. And if RDM commented, well, that's fun enough for me, too. :) The auction was hard work, to be sure, but I'm sure it was the time of your life. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:33, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
:Bleh. I am still waiting for a podcast to mention us. :( [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 00:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
::Me, too. I'm OK for a little fortune and glory. Maybe we need to send Ron some scotch... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:20, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
:::I am in for that.. :) [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 03:37, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

== BG S4.1 in Latin America ==

In Latin America, Season Four of Battlestar Galactica airs on Saturdays and Sundays on [http://www.canalspace.tv Space].

Battlestar Wiki talk:Other airdates

2009-01-25T15:33:21Z

ManofTheAtom:

=Battlestar Galactica in Latin America=

In Latin America, Season Four of BG airs on Saturdays at 9 pm CST and Sundays at 3 pm CST on [http://www.canalspace.tv Space]. --[[User:ManofTheAtom|ManofTheAtom]] 14:09, 24 January 2009 (UTC)