Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Colonial calendar/Archive 1

2008-06-27T12:02:00Z

MHall: /* Colonial seconds */ new section

== Truncation ==

This article's contents are from the oversized and messy [[Timeline (RDM)]] article. A screencap of Adama's dossier would be greatly appreciated here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:30, 26 December 2006 (CST)

==Twelve Colonies Series==
:Move to "Timekeeping in the Twelve Colonies" or somesuch, and add to the Twelve Colonies series? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:13, 26 December 2006 (CST)

::It's a better title, yours, and fits better in keeping the data in a superarticles like Science and Twelve Colonies (I like them). I'll keep this as a redirect for shorthand but look into moving it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:45, 26 December 2006 (CST)

== Colonial seconds ==

You infer that there are as many Colonial seconds in a Colonial year as there are Earth seconds in an Earth year. However, you neglected to mention that Colonial seconds have been established as a little longer than Earth seconds (Miniseries, 33, Hand of God.)
--[[User:MHall|MHall]] 12:02, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Navigation in the Re-imagined Series/Archive 1

2007-11-19T18:18:39Z

MHall:

== Summary ==
This article comprises the topics on navigation from a past larger article version of [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]], broken out for later expansion and page size considerations. The Reaction Control System article and parts of the FTL article are also included. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:13, 11 October 2006 (CDT)

== Distances and speeds in the Miniseries ==
There may be a significant error in the section on distances. The 30 minute communications delay between Adar and Roslin is most likely a total round trip delay -- 15 minutes each way, not 30. This would mean that all distances, times, and speeds derived from this number should be halved. --[[User:Girckin|Girckin]] 21:22, 7 November 2006 (CST)
:When Roslin later speaks to 'Jack' over the wireless, there is no such delay whatsoever. Billy may have meant the time it takes to get Roslin's speech from the plane to the President's eyes, or some delay in that process. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:07, 2 January 2007 (CST)
:: The use of a real time communication between the two makes the distance much shorter. There is no evidence of ftl communication or sensors in the show. This would make the distance 1/2 a light second to 1 light second at best.--[[User:Ali-Sama|Ali-Sama]] 9:36 am, 14 November 2007 (PST)
:::I take it you mean the scene when Roslin speaks with [[Jack]] over the wireless? There seems to be a multi-second lag there (Roslin asks whether the President is still alive twice before Jack answers. Also, we don't know how far from Caprica ''Colonial One'' is at that moment: she could almost be back home for all we know. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 11:51, 14 November 2007 (CST)

== Cleanup ==

I've tagged this for clean-up, it is a mess, for example it has self references, assumptions and original research, which are not encyclopaedic. [[User:MatthewFenton|MatthewFenton]] 15:44, 30 December 2006 (CST)

:Keep in mind, before you make changes, that ''Battlestar Galactica'' is a work of fiction. The information in this encyclopedia is self-referencing sometimes because it is it's own universe. Much of the research involves [[BW:CJ#Derived content|derived content]], which is allowable if it is based on information provided by official information in the show. Be careful not to apply the original research processes os Wikipedia here; they do not fully apply. Please note what items you consider original research so all can review them and determine if the items are derived content or ''unsourced original research'', also known as [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]], which is not allowable here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:53, 30 December 2006 (CST)
::"We know that Battlestar Galactica's universe sticks to the same speed of light constant as real-world Earth (and the universe, of course): 186,282 miles per second." - Who is we? Is we me and the wiki, if so how do I know, how does we know? - Basically you should never use the word "we" here -- Self-referencing isn't just writing down text, an example of self-referencing would be an episode page.
:::"Given the velocities involved, extremely high accelerations must be used to attain them in reasonable (useable [''sic'']) time frames involved for in-system transportation. Such G forces would kill any humans involved unless some means of dampening them were employed. Given that the technology to perform "space-folding" FTL Jumps is also available, the technology to manipulate gravity would lie in the same area." - space-folding, when has space-folding been mentioned in the series?
::::Just two things that immediately jump out at me. This page reads like an essay to me at least. [[User:MatthewFenton|MatthewFenton]] 17:34, 1 January 2007 (CST)

:::I agree, Matthew. We can neutralize the writing to make it leas like an essay. If you don't get to it, I'll make the changes. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:37, 1 January 2007 (CST)

:::: About space-folding: While it hasn't been stated on screen, I recall an interview with Moore and/or Eick, where they said that they wanted to actually show the spacefolding effect in more detail, but couldn't get it to look good. So at the end they settled for the current effect. Or it might even be in "33" or "Miniseries" podcast. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:39, 2 January 2007 (CST)

:::::It was from the miniseries DVD commentary, I believe. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:00, 2 January 2007 (CST)

== 'What happened in "Scattered"' section ==

I've just deleted the entire "What happened in Scattered" section, as it was [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]]. [[User:Whalepelt|Whalepelt]] 20:14, 28 February 2007 (CST)
:I disagree. I think this still falls under derived content. It's more speculative than most articles, but in line with some others, especially in the science section. But it's not made-up outright, nor does it try to explain away inexplicable plotholes (which is what fanwanking is for me). Most it was deduction from a few lines in the episode (like needing to make new starfixes, and the relaying of the jump coordinates), together with some other FTL facts we know, like the need for computations and the concept of a [[blind jump]]. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:30, 1 March 2007 (CST)
::I {{support}} the deletion. I'm a big proponent of the science pages (having authored most of them), but as I re-read this section, I realized that there isn't any episode sourcing for the piece, however well-thought out. This section is truly fanwank; to be derived content, it has to know the procedures (not just supposed technical mechanics) of FTL navigation as explained in the show, and that hasn't been detailed in any episode at this time. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:10, 1 March 2007 (CST)
:::There are snippets of dialogue to back it up. There is the conversation between Saul and Ellen Tigh (referenced in the text), where he explains the basics. And there it's also said that jump plots are continually updated and that Gaeta forgot to send the new ones. So what happened? Something like a blind jump. They had a jump plot, but a wrong one and ended up in a random place unknown to ''Galactica''. We know that such jumps are possible, but they are unpredictable; exactly what happened here. Yeah, it could be sourced better, but the explanation doesn't come out of thin air. The last paragraph is pure speculation and not explained in the episode either, but it's the only possible explanation for what happened. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:30, 1 March 2007 (CST)
::::I see your point, although I don't think I can quantify it. Could you readd the relevant parts with supporting sources? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 1 March 2007 (CST)
:::::Done, and it's better than before. I put the Tigh quote in a footnote, and made a clearer reference to blind jumps. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:37, 1 March 2007 (CST)
:::::I'm cool with it. Nice work! --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:02, 1 March 2007 (CST)

== FTL jump calculations ==
*Elevation
*Rotation
*Distance

"Here, the dimension of distance would represent more than just a straight line, plotted through three-dimensional space but the amount of space curvature that the jump drive would have to fold."

Not true, they can just be [[w:Spherical_coordinate_system|Spherical coordinates]], which draws a line of length r (note the similar notation to radius), but with a specific orientation in space depending the angles θ and φ. No special space-folding math here.--[[User:DuMan|DuMan]] 16:28, 30 June 2007 (CDT)
:Mhh, true. Guess we can just change this to general coordinates, and say that they could be either cartesian or spherical. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:41, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

== No credit! ==

I went to ''all that trouble'' of witing about and calculating the time dilation, an addition that I originally made at [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] over a year ago, but now I find it on this page, and I am not in either page's edit history! What's up with that? I thought this was cc-''by''-sa. Where is my frakkin' credit?!! --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 05:26, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

:Oh, I guess I am still in the edit history at [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]]. I missed it. Anyway, wasn't really mad about it; just was looking for the time dilation info and couldn't find it on that page. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 05:30, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

::Your contributions were probably moved over to this article when the original science article was split over several pages because it became too long and about too many topics (at least I think that's what happened). But technically we don't have page ownership here ;( --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:38, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
::Right, no page ownership, but attribution is required by the license. An editor's work is released to BSG wiki under the cc license, and BSG wiki releases it to others in the same way. But it doesn't matter, I was just making a big deal about it because I couldn't find the text when I wanted to. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 07:03, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

== Triangulation ==

You say, "To calculate the approximate distance between the Colonies and Earth, using the map to the left, one must first get the distance between the Lagoon Nebula and Earth, 4,100 light-years. One must then determine the distance between the point labeled 'Earth' and the point labeled 'Lagoon Nebula.'" Well, that would be 4,100 light-years. You meant 'Colonies' and 'Lagoon Nebula' or 'Colonies' and 'Earth'. However, these distances are unknown, and so I don't see where the 10,250 light year estimate came from. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 01:43, 13 October 2007 (CDT)

== RCS ==

In Roslin's press conference in The Hand of God, Playa Palacios states that the fleet would be unable to perform basic combat manouveres without fuel. Since reaction control thrusters are used for ships to manouvere, and she is obviously referring to tylium by "fuel" (because tylium is the only thing the fleet salvages from the asteroid), does this mean that we can add that Colonial RCS systems are also fueled by refined tylium?--[[User:Rapturous|Rapturous]] 18:14, 21 October 2007 (CDT)

== Lion's Head Nebula / Constellation Leo ==

Inasmuch as the Fleet passes through the [[Lion's Head Nebula]] on the path toward [[Earth]], I note that a straight line drawn from the [[Wikipedia:Lagoon Nebula|Lagoon Nebula]] through the [[Wikipedia:Sol System|Sol System]] and continuing out toward the Galactic Edge passes through the constellation [[Wikipedia:Leo_%28constellation%29|Leo, the Lion]], which includes the intensely bright blue-white star [[Wikipedia:Regulus|Regulus {Alpha Leonis, "the Lion's Heart")]]. Does anyone know if this was intentional or is it an ironic coincidence? -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] 07:58, 5 November 2007 (CST)
:Mhhh, interesting. I think it's a coincidence, since - unlike the lagoon nebula - the lion's head nebula is fiction. Might be worth adding as a note to the nebula article though. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:51, 5 November 2007 (CST)
::You can tell right off the bat that this assertion is wrong, because the Lagoon Nebula is between Sagittarius and Scopius, but Leo is not opposite Sagittarius/Scorpio in the zodiac. More scientifically, Regulus is at Right Ascension 10h 08 min, Declination +11° 58'. The Lagoon Nebula is at Right Ascension 18h 03m, Declination −24° 23′. Opposite the Lagoon Nebula is Right Ascension 6h, Declination +24° 23', which would be the border area between Gemini and Taurus, around the open cluster M35. The closest exciting objects would be the horns of Taurus and M1, the Crab Nebula, which is at 05h 34m, 22°. Note that the pulsars that make the eye of the Lion's Head Nebula are shown in a real location (see the use of the word "TAURUS"), which happens to be in the border area of Taurus, Cetus, and Eridanus:
:: [http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/9127/battlestargalactica3x06fd0.jpg http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/9127/battlestargalactica3x06fd0.th.jpg] [http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4566/taurusps4.jpg http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/59/neartaurusnq2.jpg]
:: Although you could dismiss this as laziness on the part of the production team, I doubt it. I think they were along a line from (the Colonies and) Earth to the Lagoon Nebula, and therefore their star chart for the "Taurus sector" would look much like ours. Oh yeah, the Lagoon Nebula is shown in the wrong place in Home part 2. So, let's see... 180 degrees opposite this wrong location would be Aldebaran, the eye of the bull Taurus, i.e., the eye of the husband of the cow. I'm not saying it means anything. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 12:18, 19 November 2007 (CST)

Talk:Continuity errors (TRS)/Archive 1

2007-10-13T17:36:57Z

MHall: New section: Acknowledged mistakes

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Is it clear that the acting change for Zak Adama was for casting reasons, or possibly the change from an extra to a fully fledged actor?
--[[User:Radicaledward|Radicaledward]] 06:21, 9 Aug 2005 (EDT)

[[Image:Bsg-baltar-adar.jpg|1px]]
Linking Baltar/Adar image to this page to "adopt it" (It's not visible, but it's there). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:10, 31 January 2006 (EST)

== Acknowledged mistakes ==

Why are the standards for this page lower than for all other Wiki pages? If you state something as a fact, and it isn't supported by anything else, you need to give a reference. Who acknowledged the mistake of the position of the Lagoon Nebula? In the podcast for home part 2, RDM and Eick, as I recall, did acknowledge that the constellations themselves would not all be simultaneously visible from any point on Earth. My suspicion is that this is the support for saying that the Lagoon Nebula mistake was acknowledged... but it does not follow. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 12:36, 13 October 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)/Archive 1

2007-10-13T07:15:22Z

MHall: /* Lords of Kobol vs other gods */

== Lords of Kobol ==
Does the existance of the Mercury class Battlestars imply that Hermes/Mercury is a Lord of Kobol? --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 15:15, 18 October 2006 (CDT)+
:The writers of the show are dancing about in the usage of Greek and Roman mythological names. Since Hermes hasn't been mentioned specifically as a Lord, no, we can't add it. I'm not big on mixing the pantheons until the context of the names in the show are clear. We have a list of names (Greek, mostly) of names heard of ships or used as people, but until used in in the context as a Lord, we shouldn't assume that the name is actually that of a Lord. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:20, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::That makes sense. It occured to me after I wrote the above that the name could refer to quicksilver, which would make sense if the Mercury class was faster than earlier ones. That would also tidy up the roman nomenclature.
::Where is the list of names you mentioned? --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 15:30, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
:::See the section, "Other mythological names in Colonial culture," this article. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:28, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::::LMAO. I was searching all over this site. It didn't occur to me that it'd be in the same article I was commenting on. --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 20:47, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

The article mentions that seven lords have been identified. Anyone notice this is the same as the number of identified cylons? It could be that each cylon model represents a lord (i.e. Sharon - Athena, Six (or maybe three) - Hera). The 5 unidentified cylons match 5 unidentified lords match the 5 in the temple of five. On a related note: how about the (norse) idea of an allfather - the Cylons recognize the allfather, but none of the lower "gods" (including the Lords of Kobol). I suppose this would be an alternate theory to the Jealous God being the god of cylons. --[[User:Ublej|Ublej]] 17:29, 4 January 2007 (CST)
:The Colonials have Zeus as the boss of all other gods. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:32, 4 January 2007 (CST)

== More Cowbell ==
Actually, more images, please. Great text content, but a couple of more images applied evenly would really brighten things up. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:04, 8 December 2006 (CST)
:Ooh. And there are some XHTML problems. I'll get on those. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:25, 8 December 2006 (CST)

== Out-of-Universe Referencing and Revision ==

I get very confused with voice when reading this article, where we speak of the Colonials and compare it to real-world references. I wanted to keep these important notes in but not to the point where we had to discuss every detail or explanation. With that in mind, I got bold:

*The two articles that go overboard in discussing the Greek Gods and Greek Mythology are deleted, per Battlestar Wiki policy: We aren't a general encyclopedia, so Wikipedia links to more extensive articles should do for this. Both articles have been discussed of late as being redundant or just plain nongermane.

*This article's out-of-universe notes were moved as footnotes. This simplifies the read but keeps the voice of the article in discussing the Colonials, not the Colonials-vs.-Greek-vs.-Norse. Note that the terms "Greek", Norse, and the like are also removed or pulled; these don't exist in the series and it makes it confusing to make the comparison. The name of the gods usually explain it all but the important points are now footnotes.

I'm finding that reading articles that analyze the Colonials and Cylons take too much from the real-world to form their explanations when in-universe comments work well without overly drawn out comparisons. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:28, 12 January 2007 (CST)

:While I support the idea, I think it's possible to take it too far. If we take your approach to the extreme, it's impossible to have any real-world references in articles, which happens fairly often and is simply necessary in some cases. I think that this is more important:
:That the ''main'' voice of an article is "in-universe". Meaning no general real-world articles, but "in-universe" articles can contain a few real-world references if necessary.

:Case in point my new [[Mythological references]] page, which generally goes like "<ship/place name> - <significance in the show> <real world reference>". I didn't go out of my way to hide the Greek/Roman/Norse allusions in "in-universe" explinations, like saying that Greek mythology is really Colonial mythology in the context of the show (it probably is in fact, but that's more something for this article).

:However, in this article here, it's appropriate to only detail the religious stuff as it pertains to the Colonials, and not to the real world. So we could keep the "Mythological references" article seperate, delete the references here (which I copied anyways) and link to it from here, as a place that deals with mythology that goes beyond religion and also includes more real-life explinations and links. That would help to keep the POVs seperate --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:56, 13 January 2007 (CST)

::I concur. Whereever we can keep the in-universe voice, great. Where out-of-universe comparisons must be in line with the text to keep the article germane and sensible, it's also fine. The recent articles you built/rebuilt exemplify good uses of that practice. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:06, 30 January 2007 (CST)

==Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies==

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to
suggest that the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the
Cylons. They are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than
Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans. So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord
or at the very least evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for
enlightenment, in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to
refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness
perhaps even conciousness of the lords in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the
lords. The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see
developing in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious
leader in the original series has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his
fellow cylons to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And
yet, strangely, he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother
cylons, something you would expect of an Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in
heaven, he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a
member of a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself
(greek gods), how satanic might he appear? An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satan's flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rule in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in
hell. So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica/ Aphrodite, Sharon
Athena and Deanna/Hestia(?). Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?

Adama and Laura as Zeus and Hera? Two reason for two of the final five to stay
where they are. They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the
flow, well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of
Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and
wonderful in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge
advances by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of
Stargate or the Vorlons of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with
higher beings in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty
realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a
new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a
metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end
sounds far more believeable than actual gods and godesses co-existing with man. (mevenstar)

:I think a more likely explanation is that whoever designed the humanoid cylons chose to use the lords as an inspiration or possibly the design was intended to mock the 12 lords and thus humanity itself. They chose 12 archetypes to define humanity saying basically all of you have one of these 12 personality types and that's it. I don't think the lords are using the cylons as avatars. Sounds too mystical. I also don't think time travel is involved and that somehow the cylons will one day go back into the past and become the lords.

:I don't really have a theory on exactly what the lords of kobol are but I do think the cylon god is a rogue lord of kobol. I also think the 13th tribe worshipped this rogue lord first. The 13th tribe left kobol because the other 12 pagan tribes were sacrifing humans and indulging in cannibalism. They first found the algae planet and built the temple of five which was dedicated to the five priests who worshipped the one whose name cannot be mentioned. This one whose name cannot be mentioned is almost certainly a rogue lord of kobol. If the priests were worshipping this one god this tells me the entire 13th tribe had the one god.

:Throughout the series we have seen the cylons talk about revelations from god and talk of his commandments. What is the source for this divine inspiration? I suspect the 12 colonies like we in the real world had scholars who studied ancient religions in the real world. They had reference books, academic papers, unearthed archeological artifacts and various other things that set out to paint a picture of what the 13th tribe was like. This information about the 13th tribe and their worship of the one god was known to the mechanical cylons before work on the humanoid models began and became the foundation of the cylon religion.

:The cylons have (more or less) adopted the religion of the 13th tribe. The commandments they speak of are what God demanded of the 13th tribe (an example god commands them to procreate). The humanoid models may not even be entirely aware that their religion mirrors the 13th tribe's ancient religion. This desire to find earth is also part of this borrowed (and possibly distorted) religion. The cylons want to find earth because according to their religion earth is the promised land...and it probably was...for the 13th colony. [[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 12:06, 30 January 2007.

== Lords of Kobol vs other gods ==

I don't think it's sensible to assume that every god or goddess mentioned is a Lord of Kobol. Case in point [[Aurora, Goddess of the Dawn]]. The Greeks didn't just have the Twelve Olympians (after whom the Lords seem to directly modeled after), but also minor deities. No reason the Colonials shouldn't as well. Another example is Nike, who is mentioned - even if not by name - in "Torn". She hang around with Zeus, and is often portrayed together with Athena, but is not a real Olympian. 
I suggest we have another header called "Other gods" or "Other deities" for those, with maybe a footnote stating that their status is uncertain. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:08, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

:I've generally felt that any god mentioned in the context of worship was a Lord of Kobol--the Colonials are very monotheistic. However, since we don't have clearer contexts for some, such as names used in [[Temple]] or something, it may be safe not to read too much into them. Some could be counterparts to [[w:Saint|saints]] for all we know. I agree that the Olympian/Titan arguments are meaningless here since Roman versions and other religions get mixed about. I generally agree with your comments. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:39, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::The Colonials use Greek and Roman names interchangeably, but that doesn't have anything to do with the Olympian/Lords of Kobol parallel. I just have a feeling that that are just twelve Lords of Kobol who are direct parallel to the ancient Olympians. However, there have been a lot of mentions of other mythological figures and gods, especially in the ship names. Or usually when asked about believes it's more "Do you believe in the gods?" instead of "Do you believe in the Lords of Kobol". There is no definite statement that "gods" refers to the Lords of Kobol exclusively, even if they are clearly the main gods. Could go either way. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:06, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::They're certainly [[w:polytheism|polytheistic]], not [[w:monotheism|monotheistc]], please read the definitions carefully. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 12:07, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::I meant "poly" and mistyped. Thanks. The notion that there are twelve Lords of Kobol is a TOS misconception that seems to have moved to RDM; I don't know of a citation for that. It's a lot easier to say "gods" than "Lords of Kobol", of course. While there could be other monothesistic or polythestic faiths with the Colonials, only one "sect" or denomination has been established officially: the five priests of the [[Temple of Five]]. Must be significant: they got a temple out of it in the middle of nowhere. -- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:13, 18 April 2007 (CDT) ([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contribs]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|WonderNumbers]])
::::I get what you're saying, but I noticed a tendency here lately to push one kind of agenda, when there isn't much concrete evidence to pursue another equally valid interpretation. Obviously something needs to be written, but lack of concrete evidence for point A doesn't prove point B. There is no evidence for there being more than 12 Lords of Kobol either, though Occam's Razor would probably come to that conclusion then. But there are theories that the Lords were originally human leaders of the tribes who were deified later (even before the exodus from Kobol). It's speculation, but agrees with the quotes from the scriptures...As said, it could be either way.
::::However, this has nothing to do with different faiths. Nothing prevents a worshiper of the Lord of Kobol to also recognize or worship certain either deities. The ancient Greeks didn't only worship the Olympians for example. Exclusive worship is somewhat of a monotheistic concept. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:36, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::I don't think we even know if all the named Olympians are Lords of Kobol. Maybe "Lords of Kobol" is synonymous with "the gods", maybe it refers exclusively to the Olympian Dodekatheon, maybe it includes the Dodekatheon and the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, maybe it only includes a few of the Olympians. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:35, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::My point is that we haven't been explicitly told of any other ''faiths'', which differs from the number of gods. A single god can be worshipped differently based on many different faith structures, such as the Jews and Christians do. We haven't been given ''any'' data that suggests that their are other central faith structures other than the Lords of Kobol and God (with the [[five priests]]' diety being a possible exception). There are obviously different "denominations", for lack of a better term (Gemonese and Sagittarons do this), but I don't tend to interpret matters any further. Be it 10 or 10,000 Lords, they may fall under the same central faith structure. We don't know, so I don't try to interpret it much, but just drop it in the place that best fits. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:47, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::::Agreed. There is only evidence of one religion practiced in the twelve colonies, with various sects, denominations and personal interpretations, however it seems to be, for the most part, relatively uniform. There are two possible exceptions, however both of them may be particularly divergent sects / denominations of the colonial religion. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:28, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::::: I disagree with the assumption that Aurora is a Lord of Kobol. She may be a god, but that doesn't make her a Lord of Kobol. I don't think anyone familiar with Greek mythology would think she fits with Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite, Artemis, Apollo, Athena, etc.

:::::::: I disagree with the assumption that Jupiter is just another name for Zeus and Mars is just another name for Ares. This has not been demonstrated on the show. However, I do realize that I'm the only one who thinks this way and that no one can grasp that they might be slightly different entities, like one a clone of the other. What if Jupiter is the Cylon God, while Zeus is a Colonial god. Think of the sacrilege your Wiki page is committing then!!! Remember ''only a Cylon'' has ever mentioned the god Jupiter. The Sacred Scrolls have (thus far) never mentioned this god - only Zeus, Hera, and the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, whom I think is Jupiter. The temple of Five is for the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, and the Sacred Scrolls tell us that the Eye of Jupiter is in the Temple of Five. Do the math. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 17:45, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
:::::::::I think that, in the specific case of Zeus/Jupiter, RDM or one of TPTB mentioned that the name had to be changed from Zeus (which it originally was) because of some sort of copyright reason or something like that. I think it's either on a podcast or an interview, but I'm sure I heard it. I'll look it up. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:29, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
::::::::::Okay, I looked and found one in the "Eye of Jupiter" podcast [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Podcast:The_Eye_of_Jupiter]. I dunno if it's the one I remember, but either way the reasoning is different from what I thought, but the fact remains that Jupiter and Zeus are the same being-
:::::::::::'''''"Eye of Jupiter" was originally called "Eye of Zeus" for a very long time in draft form and into script. We changed the name, ultimately, for not very deep reasons. Just that there was something about "Eye of Zeus" that seemed a bit too mystical and a little bit too over-the-top, even for us. And that's saying somethin'. But we didn't want to- the story still was what the story was, and we didn't really wanna lose that aspect of what the episode was and the slide to call it Jupiter instead of Zeus was an arbitrary one, except it, somehow, for subjective reasons that are hard to explain, it sounded a little less hokey. Some could argue it's more hokey, but it was also a nice way to broaden the pantheon, as it were, ha ha ha, of the gods and their references in the Galactica universe and the mythos, in that Zeus being the Greek name for the father of the gods, and Jupiter being the later Roman version of the same idea. And it was nice to have both names- both proper names present in the Galactica world. I believe we've used other Roman names, from time to time, as well, although of course right off the top of my head I can't remember which ones they were, but I think we have established that. '''''
::::::::::So yeah....same being. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:40, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
:::::::::::I'm familiar with the podcast, as well as the other source Sauron18 mentioned. What is there is not one Zeus running around, but two generations of Zeus running around? Then your page is screwed, because RDM decided, for somewhat arbitrary reasons, to call the older Zeus "Zeus" and the younger Zeus "Jupiter," and they are not the same individual, not even necessarily on the same "side." I'm content to lodge the protest and wait for the show to possibly prove your "canon" false. Yes, it could be that the page is correct - but it could be that the page is committing blasphemy in both the Cylon and Colonial religions, which would be an unpardonable sin, times two. This is my last comment on this. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 02:15, 13 October 2007 (CDT)

== About Hera ==

I've recently gone through several Lord of Kobol articles and removed the Greek mythological references since this information isn't needed here (we're not a general encyclopedia) and because the Earth information doesn't always mesh with the series information. Right now, there's enough references for each Lord to stand on their own without out-of-universe comparisons.

One note about Hera. In our mythology she is the wife AND sister of Zeus (gross as that might be to some). I was about to revert [[User:Mudflap|Mudflap's]] recent deletion of the "sister" part when I realized after checking that the show has NOT noted this element of Hera in its own mythology. So, that stands for now. As I said, there is sufficient mythology generated by the show itself now to avoid adding much from our universe to theirs. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:15, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

: Selloi: I have a message for you from the one you worship. He speaks through me to you just as he speaks in your dreams. The message is... the fruit born of two peoples [Three's smile fades.] is alive. A child named after the wife and sister of the all-knowing Zeus. Hera lives.

: So, Hera is wife and sister of Zeus. I think somewhere on the page it says Zeus is the head God of the Colonials. What if Hera is the head God of the Colonials instead? I don't think it's been established that Zeus is the head God for the Colonials. He is all-knowing, true. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 17:45, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
::Zarek: Zeus has returned to the Olympus. [Lee looks puzzled.] Adama's back.
::Good enough for me. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 02:16, 12 October 2007 (CDT)
:::And so if Zarek had said, "Artemis has returned to Olympus. Starbuck's back.", then this would mean that Artemis was the head god of the Colonials? There are 12 gods living in Olympus, ya know.
:::Boomer: I think those are the Gates of Hera.
:::Starbuck: You think?
:::Boomer: I'm putting together a lot of pieces from a lot of sources beyond your scriptures. If I'm right, that's the spot where your God supposedly stood and watched Athena throw herself down onto the rocks below out of despair over the exodus of the 13 tribes.
:::It's possible that the Colonials were once monotheistic and their God was Hera. And if it's possible, then you can't say their head god is Zeus. Who is the President of the Colonies? Zeus (Adama) or Hera (Roslin)? The Cylon God, as I indicated above, could be Jupiter. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 02:01, 13 October 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)/Archive 1

2007-10-13T07:02:10Z

MHall: /* About Hera */

== Lords of Kobol ==
Does the existance of the Mercury class Battlestars imply that Hermes/Mercury is a Lord of Kobol? --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 15:15, 18 October 2006 (CDT)+
:The writers of the show are dancing about in the usage of Greek and Roman mythological names. Since Hermes hasn't been mentioned specifically as a Lord, no, we can't add it. I'm not big on mixing the pantheons until the context of the names in the show are clear. We have a list of names (Greek, mostly) of names heard of ships or used as people, but until used in in the context as a Lord, we shouldn't assume that the name is actually that of a Lord. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:20, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::That makes sense. It occured to me after I wrote the above that the name could refer to quicksilver, which would make sense if the Mercury class was faster than earlier ones. That would also tidy up the roman nomenclature.
::Where is the list of names you mentioned? --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 15:30, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
:::See the section, "Other mythological names in Colonial culture," this article. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:28, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::::LMAO. I was searching all over this site. It didn't occur to me that it'd be in the same article I was commenting on. --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 20:47, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

The article mentions that seven lords have been identified. Anyone notice this is the same as the number of identified cylons? It could be that each cylon model represents a lord (i.e. Sharon - Athena, Six (or maybe three) - Hera). The 5 unidentified cylons match 5 unidentified lords match the 5 in the temple of five. On a related note: how about the (norse) idea of an allfather - the Cylons recognize the allfather, but none of the lower "gods" (including the Lords of Kobol). I suppose this would be an alternate theory to the Jealous God being the god of cylons. --[[User:Ublej|Ublej]] 17:29, 4 January 2007 (CST)
:The Colonials have Zeus as the boss of all other gods. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:32, 4 January 2007 (CST)

== More Cowbell ==
Actually, more images, please. Great text content, but a couple of more images applied evenly would really brighten things up. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:04, 8 December 2006 (CST)
:Ooh. And there are some XHTML problems. I'll get on those. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:25, 8 December 2006 (CST)

== Out-of-Universe Referencing and Revision ==

I get very confused with voice when reading this article, where we speak of the Colonials and compare it to real-world references. I wanted to keep these important notes in but not to the point where we had to discuss every detail or explanation. With that in mind, I got bold:

*The two articles that go overboard in discussing the Greek Gods and Greek Mythology are deleted, per Battlestar Wiki policy: We aren't a general encyclopedia, so Wikipedia links to more extensive articles should do for this. Both articles have been discussed of late as being redundant or just plain nongermane.

*This article's out-of-universe notes were moved as footnotes. This simplifies the read but keeps the voice of the article in discussing the Colonials, not the Colonials-vs.-Greek-vs.-Norse. Note that the terms "Greek", Norse, and the like are also removed or pulled; these don't exist in the series and it makes it confusing to make the comparison. The name of the gods usually explain it all but the important points are now footnotes.

I'm finding that reading articles that analyze the Colonials and Cylons take too much from the real-world to form their explanations when in-universe comments work well without overly drawn out comparisons. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:28, 12 January 2007 (CST)

:While I support the idea, I think it's possible to take it too far. If we take your approach to the extreme, it's impossible to have any real-world references in articles, which happens fairly often and is simply necessary in some cases. I think that this is more important:
:That the ''main'' voice of an article is "in-universe". Meaning no general real-world articles, but "in-universe" articles can contain a few real-world references if necessary.

:Case in point my new [[Mythological references]] page, which generally goes like "<ship/place name> - <significance in the show> <real world reference>". I didn't go out of my way to hide the Greek/Roman/Norse allusions in "in-universe" explinations, like saying that Greek mythology is really Colonial mythology in the context of the show (it probably is in fact, but that's more something for this article).

:However, in this article here, it's appropriate to only detail the religious stuff as it pertains to the Colonials, and not to the real world. So we could keep the "Mythological references" article seperate, delete the references here (which I copied anyways) and link to it from here, as a place that deals with mythology that goes beyond religion and also includes more real-life explinations and links. That would help to keep the POVs seperate --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:56, 13 January 2007 (CST)

::I concur. Whereever we can keep the in-universe voice, great. Where out-of-universe comparisons must be in line with the text to keep the article germane and sensible, it's also fine. The recent articles you built/rebuilt exemplify good uses of that practice. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:06, 30 January 2007 (CST)

==Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies==

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to
suggest that the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the
Cylons. They are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than
Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans. So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord
or at the very least evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for
enlightenment, in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to
refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness
perhaps even conciousness of the lords in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the
lords. The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see
developing in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious
leader in the original series has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his
fellow cylons to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And
yet, strangely, he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother
cylons, something you would expect of an Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in
heaven, he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a
member of a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself
(greek gods), how satanic might he appear? An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satan's flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rule in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in
hell. So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica/ Aphrodite, Sharon
Athena and Deanna/Hestia(?). Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?

Adama and Laura as Zeus and Hera? Two reason for two of the final five to stay
where they are. They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the
flow, well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of
Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and
wonderful in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge
advances by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of
Stargate or the Vorlons of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with
higher beings in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty
realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a
new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a
metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end
sounds far more believeable than actual gods and godesses co-existing with man. (mevenstar)

:I think a more likely explanation is that whoever designed the humanoid cylons chose to use the lords as an inspiration or possibly the design was intended to mock the 12 lords and thus humanity itself. They chose 12 archetypes to define humanity saying basically all of you have one of these 12 personality types and that's it. I don't think the lords are using the cylons as avatars. Sounds too mystical. I also don't think time travel is involved and that somehow the cylons will one day go back into the past and become the lords.

:I don't really have a theory on exactly what the lords of kobol are but I do think the cylon god is a rogue lord of kobol. I also think the 13th tribe worshipped this rogue lord first. The 13th tribe left kobol because the other 12 pagan tribes were sacrifing humans and indulging in cannibalism. They first found the algae planet and built the temple of five which was dedicated to the five priests who worshipped the one whose name cannot be mentioned. This one whose name cannot be mentioned is almost certainly a rogue lord of kobol. If the priests were worshipping this one god this tells me the entire 13th tribe had the one god.

:Throughout the series we have seen the cylons talk about revelations from god and talk of his commandments. What is the source for this divine inspiration? I suspect the 12 colonies like we in the real world had scholars who studied ancient religions in the real world. They had reference books, academic papers, unearthed archeological artifacts and various other things that set out to paint a picture of what the 13th tribe was like. This information about the 13th tribe and their worship of the one god was known to the mechanical cylons before work on the humanoid models began and became the foundation of the cylon religion.

:The cylons have (more or less) adopted the religion of the 13th tribe. The commandments they speak of are what God demanded of the 13th tribe (an example god commands them to procreate). The humanoid models may not even be entirely aware that their religion mirrors the 13th tribe's ancient religion. This desire to find earth is also part of this borrowed (and possibly distorted) religion. The cylons want to find earth because according to their religion earth is the promised land...and it probably was...for the 13th colony. [[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 12:06, 30 January 2007.

== Lords of Kobol vs other gods ==

I don't think it's sensible to assume that every god or goddess mentioned is a Lord of Kobol. Case in point [[Aurora, Goddess of the Dawn]]. The Greeks didn't just have the Twelve Olympians (after whom the Lords seem to directly modeled after), but also minor deities. No reason the Colonials shouldn't as well. Another example is Nike, who is mentioned - even if not by name - in "Torn". She hang around with Zeus, and is often portrayed together with Athena, but is not a real Olympian. 
I suggest we have another header called "Other gods" or "Other deities" for those, with maybe a footnote stating that their status is uncertain. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:08, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

:I've generally felt that any god mentioned in the context of worship was a Lord of Kobol--the Colonials are very monotheistic. However, since we don't have clearer contexts for some, such as names used in [[Temple]] or something, it may be safe not to read too much into them. Some could be counterparts to [[w:Saint|saints]] for all we know. I agree that the Olympian/Titan arguments are meaningless here since Roman versions and other religions get mixed about. I generally agree with your comments. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:39, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::The Colonials use Greek and Roman names interchangeably, but that doesn't have anything to do with the Olympian/Lords of Kobol parallel. I just have a feeling that that are just twelve Lords of Kobol who are direct parallel to the ancient Olympians. However, there have been a lot of mentions of other mythological figures and gods, especially in the ship names. Or usually when asked about believes it's more "Do you believe in the gods?" instead of "Do you believe in the Lords of Kobol". There is no definite statement that "gods" refers to the Lords of Kobol exclusively, even if they are clearly the main gods. Could go either way. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:06, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::They're certainly [[w:polytheism|polytheistic]], not [[w:monotheism|monotheistc]], please read the definitions carefully. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 12:07, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::I meant "poly" and mistyped. Thanks. The notion that there are twelve Lords of Kobol is a TOS misconception that seems to have moved to RDM; I don't know of a citation for that. It's a lot easier to say "gods" than "Lords of Kobol", of course. While there could be other monothesistic or polythestic faiths with the Colonials, only one "sect" or denomination has been established officially: the five priests of the [[Temple of Five]]. Must be significant: they got a temple out of it in the middle of nowhere. -- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:13, 18 April 2007 (CDT) ([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contribs]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|WonderNumbers]])
::::I get what you're saying, but I noticed a tendency here lately to push one kind of agenda, when there isn't much concrete evidence to pursue another equally valid interpretation. Obviously something needs to be written, but lack of concrete evidence for point A doesn't prove point B. There is no evidence for there being more than 12 Lords of Kobol either, though Occam's Razor would probably come to that conclusion then. But there are theories that the Lords were originally human leaders of the tribes who were deified later (even before the exodus from Kobol). It's speculation, but agrees with the quotes from the scriptures...As said, it could be either way.
::::However, this has nothing to do with different faiths. Nothing prevents a worshiper of the Lord of Kobol to also recognize or worship certain either deities. The ancient Greeks didn't only worship the Olympians for example. Exclusive worship is somewhat of a monotheistic concept. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:36, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::I don't think we even know if all the named Olympians are Lords of Kobol. Maybe "Lords of Kobol" is synonymous with "the gods", maybe it refers exclusively to the Olympian Dodekatheon, maybe it includes the Dodekatheon and the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, maybe it only includes a few of the Olympians. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:35, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::My point is that we haven't been explicitly told of any other ''faiths'', which differs from the number of gods. A single god can be worshipped differently based on many different faith structures, such as the Jews and Christians do. We haven't been given ''any'' data that suggests that their are other central faith structures other than the Lords of Kobol and God (with the [[five priests]]' diety being a possible exception). There are obviously different "denominations", for lack of a better term (Gemonese and Sagittarons do this), but I don't tend to interpret matters any further. Be it 10 or 10,000 Lords, they may fall under the same central faith structure. We don't know, so I don't try to interpret it much, but just drop it in the place that best fits. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:47, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::::Agreed. There is only evidence of one religion practiced in the twelve colonies, with various sects, denominations and personal interpretations, however it seems to be, for the most part, relatively uniform. There are two possible exceptions, however both of them may be particularly divergent sects / denominations of the colonial religion. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:28, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::::: I disagree with the assumption that Aurora is a Lord of Kobol. She may be a god, but that doesn't make her a Lord of Kobol. I don't think anyone familiar with Greek mythology would think she fits with Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite, Artemis, Apollo, Athena, etc.

:::::::: I disagree with the assumption that Jupiter is just another name for Zeus and Mars is just another name for Ares. This has not been demonstrated on the show. However, I do realize that I'm the only one who thinks this way and that no one can grasp that they might be slightly different entities, like one a clone of the other. What if Jupiter is the Cylon God, while Zeus is a Colonial god. Think of the sacrilege your Wiki page is committing then!!! Remember ''only a Cylon'' has ever mentioned the god Jupiter. The Sacred Scrolls have (thus far) never mentioned this god - only Zeus, Hera, and the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, whom I think is Jupiter. The temple of Five is for the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, and the Sacred Scrolls tell us that the Eye of Jupiter is in the Temple of Five. Do the math. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 17:45, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
:::::::::I think that, in the specific case of Zeus/Jupiter, RDM or one of TPTB mentioned that the name had to be changed from Zeus (which it originally was) because of some sort of copyright reason or something like that. I think it's either on a podcast or an interview, but I'm sure I heard it. I'll look it up. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:29, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
::::::::::Okay, I looked and found one in the "Eye of Jupiter" podcast [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Podcast:The_Eye_of_Jupiter]. I dunno if it's the one I remember, but either way the reasoning is different from what I thought, but the fact remains that Jupiter and Zeus are the same being-
:::::::::::'''''"Eye of Jupiter" was originally called "Eye of Zeus" for a very long time in draft form and into script. We changed the name, ultimately, for not very deep reasons. Just that there was something about "Eye of Zeus" that seemed a bit too mystical and a little bit too over-the-top, even for us. And that's saying somethin'. But we didn't want to- the story still was what the story was, and we didn't really wanna lose that aspect of what the episode was and the slide to call it Jupiter instead of Zeus was an arbitrary one, except it, somehow, for subjective reasons that are hard to explain, it sounded a little less hokey. Some could argue it's more hokey, but it was also a nice way to broaden the pantheon, as it were, ha ha ha, of the gods and their references in the Galactica universe and the mythos, in that Zeus being the Greek name for the father of the gods, and Jupiter being the later Roman version of the same idea. And it was nice to have both names- both proper names present in the Galactica world. I believe we've used other Roman names, from time to time, as well, although of course right off the top of my head I can't remember which ones they were, but I think we have established that. '''''
::::::::::So yeah....same being. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:40, 11 October 2007 (CDT)

== About Hera ==

I've recently gone through several Lord of Kobol articles and removed the Greek mythological references since this information isn't needed here (we're not a general encyclopedia) and because the Earth information doesn't always mesh with the series information. Right now, there's enough references for each Lord to stand on their own without out-of-universe comparisons.

One note about Hera. In our mythology she is the wife AND sister of Zeus (gross as that might be to some). I was about to revert [[User:Mudflap|Mudflap's]] recent deletion of the "sister" part when I realized after checking that the show has NOT noted this element of Hera in its own mythology. So, that stands for now. As I said, there is sufficient mythology generated by the show itself now to avoid adding much from our universe to theirs. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:15, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

: Selloi: I have a message for you from the one you worship. He speaks through me to you just as he speaks in your dreams. The message is... the fruit born of two peoples [Three's smile fades.] is alive. A child named after the wife and sister of the all-knowing Zeus. Hera lives.

: So, Hera is wife and sister of Zeus. I think somewhere on the page it says Zeus is the head God of the Colonials. What if Hera is the head God of the Colonials instead? I don't think it's been established that Zeus is the head God for the Colonials. He is all-knowing, true. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 17:45, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
::Zarek: Zeus has returned to the Olympus. [Lee looks puzzled.] Adama's back.
::Good enough for me. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 02:16, 12 October 2007 (CDT)
:::And so if Zarek had said, "Artemis has returned to Olympus. Starbuck's back.", then this would mean that Artemis was the head god of the Colonials? There are 12 gods living in Olympus, ya know.
:::Boomer: I think those are the Gates of Hera.
:::Starbuck: You think?
:::Boomer: I'm putting together a lot of pieces from a lot of sources beyond your scriptures. If I'm right, that's the spot where your God supposedly stood and watched Athena throw herself down onto the rocks below out of despair over the exodus of the 13 tribes.
:::It's possible that the Colonials were once monotheistic and their God was Hera. And if it's possible, then you can't say their head god is Zeus. Who is the President of the Colonies? Zeus (Adama) or Hera (Roslin)? The Cylon God, as I indicated above, could be Jupiter. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 02:01, 13 October 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)/Archive 1

2007-10-13T07:01:22Z

MHall: /* About Hera */

== Lords of Kobol ==
Does the existance of the Mercury class Battlestars imply that Hermes/Mercury is a Lord of Kobol? --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 15:15, 18 October 2006 (CDT)+
:The writers of the show are dancing about in the usage of Greek and Roman mythological names. Since Hermes hasn't been mentioned specifically as a Lord, no, we can't add it. I'm not big on mixing the pantheons until the context of the names in the show are clear. We have a list of names (Greek, mostly) of names heard of ships or used as people, but until used in in the context as a Lord, we shouldn't assume that the name is actually that of a Lord. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:20, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::That makes sense. It occured to me after I wrote the above that the name could refer to quicksilver, which would make sense if the Mercury class was faster than earlier ones. That would also tidy up the roman nomenclature.
::Where is the list of names you mentioned? --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 15:30, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
:::See the section, "Other mythological names in Colonial culture," this article. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:28, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::::LMAO. I was searching all over this site. It didn't occur to me that it'd be in the same article I was commenting on. --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 20:47, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

The article mentions that seven lords have been identified. Anyone notice this is the same as the number of identified cylons? It could be that each cylon model represents a lord (i.e. Sharon - Athena, Six (or maybe three) - Hera). The 5 unidentified cylons match 5 unidentified lords match the 5 in the temple of five. On a related note: how about the (norse) idea of an allfather - the Cylons recognize the allfather, but none of the lower "gods" (including the Lords of Kobol). I suppose this would be an alternate theory to the Jealous God being the god of cylons. --[[User:Ublej|Ublej]] 17:29, 4 January 2007 (CST)
:The Colonials have Zeus as the boss of all other gods. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:32, 4 January 2007 (CST)

== More Cowbell ==
Actually, more images, please. Great text content, but a couple of more images applied evenly would really brighten things up. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:04, 8 December 2006 (CST)
:Ooh. And there are some XHTML problems. I'll get on those. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:25, 8 December 2006 (CST)

== Out-of-Universe Referencing and Revision ==

I get very confused with voice when reading this article, where we speak of the Colonials and compare it to real-world references. I wanted to keep these important notes in but not to the point where we had to discuss every detail or explanation. With that in mind, I got bold:

*The two articles that go overboard in discussing the Greek Gods and Greek Mythology are deleted, per Battlestar Wiki policy: We aren't a general encyclopedia, so Wikipedia links to more extensive articles should do for this. Both articles have been discussed of late as being redundant or just plain nongermane.

*This article's out-of-universe notes were moved as footnotes. This simplifies the read but keeps the voice of the article in discussing the Colonials, not the Colonials-vs.-Greek-vs.-Norse. Note that the terms "Greek", Norse, and the like are also removed or pulled; these don't exist in the series and it makes it confusing to make the comparison. The name of the gods usually explain it all but the important points are now footnotes.

I'm finding that reading articles that analyze the Colonials and Cylons take too much from the real-world to form their explanations when in-universe comments work well without overly drawn out comparisons. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:28, 12 January 2007 (CST)

:While I support the idea, I think it's possible to take it too far. If we take your approach to the extreme, it's impossible to have any real-world references in articles, which happens fairly often and is simply necessary in some cases. I think that this is more important:
:That the ''main'' voice of an article is "in-universe". Meaning no general real-world articles, but "in-universe" articles can contain a few real-world references if necessary.

:Case in point my new [[Mythological references]] page, which generally goes like "<ship/place name> - <significance in the show> <real world reference>". I didn't go out of my way to hide the Greek/Roman/Norse allusions in "in-universe" explinations, like saying that Greek mythology is really Colonial mythology in the context of the show (it probably is in fact, but that's more something for this article).

:However, in this article here, it's appropriate to only detail the religious stuff as it pertains to the Colonials, and not to the real world. So we could keep the "Mythological references" article seperate, delete the references here (which I copied anyways) and link to it from here, as a place that deals with mythology that goes beyond religion and also includes more real-life explinations and links. That would help to keep the POVs seperate --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:56, 13 January 2007 (CST)

::I concur. Whereever we can keep the in-universe voice, great. Where out-of-universe comparisons must be in line with the text to keep the article germane and sensible, it's also fine. The recent articles you built/rebuilt exemplify good uses of that practice. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:06, 30 January 2007 (CST)

==Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies==

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to
suggest that the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the
Cylons. They are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than
Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans. So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord
or at the very least evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for
enlightenment, in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to
refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness
perhaps even conciousness of the lords in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the
lords. The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see
developing in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious
leader in the original series has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his
fellow cylons to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And
yet, strangely, he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother
cylons, something you would expect of an Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in
heaven, he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a
member of a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself
(greek gods), how satanic might he appear? An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satan's flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rule in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in
hell. So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica/ Aphrodite, Sharon
Athena and Deanna/Hestia(?). Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?

Adama and Laura as Zeus and Hera? Two reason for two of the final five to stay
where they are. They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the
flow, well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of
Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and
wonderful in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge
advances by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of
Stargate or the Vorlons of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with
higher beings in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty
realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a
new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a
metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end
sounds far more believeable than actual gods and godesses co-existing with man. (mevenstar)

:I think a more likely explanation is that whoever designed the humanoid cylons chose to use the lords as an inspiration or possibly the design was intended to mock the 12 lords and thus humanity itself. They chose 12 archetypes to define humanity saying basically all of you have one of these 12 personality types and that's it. I don't think the lords are using the cylons as avatars. Sounds too mystical. I also don't think time travel is involved and that somehow the cylons will one day go back into the past and become the lords.

:I don't really have a theory on exactly what the lords of kobol are but I do think the cylon god is a rogue lord of kobol. I also think the 13th tribe worshipped this rogue lord first. The 13th tribe left kobol because the other 12 pagan tribes were sacrifing humans and indulging in cannibalism. They first found the algae planet and built the temple of five which was dedicated to the five priests who worshipped the one whose name cannot be mentioned. This one whose name cannot be mentioned is almost certainly a rogue lord of kobol. If the priests were worshipping this one god this tells me the entire 13th tribe had the one god.

:Throughout the series we have seen the cylons talk about revelations from god and talk of his commandments. What is the source for this divine inspiration? I suspect the 12 colonies like we in the real world had scholars who studied ancient religions in the real world. They had reference books, academic papers, unearthed archeological artifacts and various other things that set out to paint a picture of what the 13th tribe was like. This information about the 13th tribe and their worship of the one god was known to the mechanical cylons before work on the humanoid models began and became the foundation of the cylon religion.

:The cylons have (more or less) adopted the religion of the 13th tribe. The commandments they speak of are what God demanded of the 13th tribe (an example god commands them to procreate). The humanoid models may not even be entirely aware that their religion mirrors the 13th tribe's ancient religion. This desire to find earth is also part of this borrowed (and possibly distorted) religion. The cylons want to find earth because according to their religion earth is the promised land...and it probably was...for the 13th colony. [[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 12:06, 30 January 2007.

== Lords of Kobol vs other gods ==

I don't think it's sensible to assume that every god or goddess mentioned is a Lord of Kobol. Case in point [[Aurora, Goddess of the Dawn]]. The Greeks didn't just have the Twelve Olympians (after whom the Lords seem to directly modeled after), but also minor deities. No reason the Colonials shouldn't as well. Another example is Nike, who is mentioned - even if not by name - in "Torn". She hang around with Zeus, and is often portrayed together with Athena, but is not a real Olympian. 
I suggest we have another header called "Other gods" or "Other deities" for those, with maybe a footnote stating that their status is uncertain. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:08, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

:I've generally felt that any god mentioned in the context of worship was a Lord of Kobol--the Colonials are very monotheistic. However, since we don't have clearer contexts for some, such as names used in [[Temple]] or something, it may be safe not to read too much into them. Some could be counterparts to [[w:Saint|saints]] for all we know. I agree that the Olympian/Titan arguments are meaningless here since Roman versions and other religions get mixed about. I generally agree with your comments. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:39, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::The Colonials use Greek and Roman names interchangeably, but that doesn't have anything to do with the Olympian/Lords of Kobol parallel. I just have a feeling that that are just twelve Lords of Kobol who are direct parallel to the ancient Olympians. However, there have been a lot of mentions of other mythological figures and gods, especially in the ship names. Or usually when asked about believes it's more "Do you believe in the gods?" instead of "Do you believe in the Lords of Kobol". There is no definite statement that "gods" refers to the Lords of Kobol exclusively, even if they are clearly the main gods. Could go either way. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:06, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::They're certainly [[w:polytheism|polytheistic]], not [[w:monotheism|monotheistc]], please read the definitions carefully. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 12:07, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::I meant "poly" and mistyped. Thanks. The notion that there are twelve Lords of Kobol is a TOS misconception that seems to have moved to RDM; I don't know of a citation for that. It's a lot easier to say "gods" than "Lords of Kobol", of course. While there could be other monothesistic or polythestic faiths with the Colonials, only one "sect" or denomination has been established officially: the five priests of the [[Temple of Five]]. Must be significant: they got a temple out of it in the middle of nowhere. -- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:13, 18 April 2007 (CDT) ([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contribs]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|WonderNumbers]])
::::I get what you're saying, but I noticed a tendency here lately to push one kind of agenda, when there isn't much concrete evidence to pursue another equally valid interpretation. Obviously something needs to be written, but lack of concrete evidence for point A doesn't prove point B. There is no evidence for there being more than 12 Lords of Kobol either, though Occam's Razor would probably come to that conclusion then. But there are theories that the Lords were originally human leaders of the tribes who were deified later (even before the exodus from Kobol). It's speculation, but agrees with the quotes from the scriptures...As said, it could be either way.
::::However, this has nothing to do with different faiths. Nothing prevents a worshiper of the Lord of Kobol to also recognize or worship certain either deities. The ancient Greeks didn't only worship the Olympians for example. Exclusive worship is somewhat of a monotheistic concept. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:36, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::I don't think we even know if all the named Olympians are Lords of Kobol. Maybe "Lords of Kobol" is synonymous with "the gods", maybe it refers exclusively to the Olympian Dodekatheon, maybe it includes the Dodekatheon and the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, maybe it only includes a few of the Olympians. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:35, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::My point is that we haven't been explicitly told of any other ''faiths'', which differs from the number of gods. A single god can be worshipped differently based on many different faith structures, such as the Jews and Christians do. We haven't been given ''any'' data that suggests that their are other central faith structures other than the Lords of Kobol and God (with the [[five priests]]' diety being a possible exception). There are obviously different "denominations", for lack of a better term (Gemonese and Sagittarons do this), but I don't tend to interpret matters any further. Be it 10 or 10,000 Lords, they may fall under the same central faith structure. We don't know, so I don't try to interpret it much, but just drop it in the place that best fits. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:47, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::::Agreed. There is only evidence of one religion practiced in the twelve colonies, with various sects, denominations and personal interpretations, however it seems to be, for the most part, relatively uniform. There are two possible exceptions, however both of them may be particularly divergent sects / denominations of the colonial religion. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:28, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::::: I disagree with the assumption that Aurora is a Lord of Kobol. She may be a god, but that doesn't make her a Lord of Kobol. I don't think anyone familiar with Greek mythology would think she fits with Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite, Artemis, Apollo, Athena, etc.

:::::::: I disagree with the assumption that Jupiter is just another name for Zeus and Mars is just another name for Ares. This has not been demonstrated on the show. However, I do realize that I'm the only one who thinks this way and that no one can grasp that they might be slightly different entities, like one a clone of the other. What if Jupiter is the Cylon God, while Zeus is a Colonial god. Think of the sacrilege your Wiki page is committing then!!! Remember ''only a Cylon'' has ever mentioned the god Jupiter. The Sacred Scrolls have (thus far) never mentioned this god - only Zeus, Hera, and the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, whom I think is Jupiter. The temple of Five is for the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, and the Sacred Scrolls tell us that the Eye of Jupiter is in the Temple of Five. Do the math. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 17:45, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
:::::::::I think that, in the specific case of Zeus/Jupiter, RDM or one of TPTB mentioned that the name had to be changed from Zeus (which it originally was) because of some sort of copyright reason or something like that. I think it's either on a podcast or an interview, but I'm sure I heard it. I'll look it up. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:29, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
::::::::::Okay, I looked and found one in the "Eye of Jupiter" podcast [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Podcast:The_Eye_of_Jupiter]. I dunno if it's the one I remember, but either way the reasoning is different from what I thought, but the fact remains that Jupiter and Zeus are the same being-
:::::::::::'''''"Eye of Jupiter" was originally called "Eye of Zeus" for a very long time in draft form and into script. We changed the name, ultimately, for not very deep reasons. Just that there was something about "Eye of Zeus" that seemed a bit too mystical and a little bit too over-the-top, even for us. And that's saying somethin'. But we didn't want to- the story still was what the story was, and we didn't really wanna lose that aspect of what the episode was and the slide to call it Jupiter instead of Zeus was an arbitrary one, except it, somehow, for subjective reasons that are hard to explain, it sounded a little less hokey. Some could argue it's more hokey, but it was also a nice way to broaden the pantheon, as it were, ha ha ha, of the gods and their references in the Galactica universe and the mythos, in that Zeus being the Greek name for the father of the gods, and Jupiter being the later Roman version of the same idea. And it was nice to have both names- both proper names present in the Galactica world. I believe we've used other Roman names, from time to time, as well, although of course right off the top of my head I can't remember which ones they were, but I think we have established that. '''''
::::::::::So yeah....same being. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:40, 11 October 2007 (CDT)

== About Hera ==

I've recently gone through several Lord of Kobol articles and removed the Greek mythological references since this information isn't needed here (we're not a general encyclopedia) and because the Earth information doesn't always mesh with the series information. Right now, there's enough references for each Lord to stand on their own without out-of-universe comparisons.

One note about Hera. In our mythology she is the wife AND sister of Zeus (gross as that might be to some). I was about to revert [[User:Mudflap|Mudflap's]] recent deletion of the "sister" part when I realized after checking that the show has NOT noted this element of Hera in its own mythology. So, that stands for now. As I said, there is sufficient mythology generated by the show itself now to avoid adding much from our universe to theirs. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:15, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

: Selloi: I have a message for you from the one you worship. He speaks through me to you just as he speaks in your dreams. The message is... the fruit born of two peoples [Three's smile fades.] is alive. A child named after the wife and sister of the all-knowing Zeus. Hera lives.

: So, Hera is wife and sister of Zeus. I think somewhere on the page it says Zeus is the head God of the Colonials. What if Hera is the head God of the Colonials instead? I don't think it's been established that Zeus is the head God for the Colonials. He is all-knowing, true. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 17:45, 11 October 2007 (CDT)
::Zarek: Zeus has returned to the Olympus. [Lee looks puzzled.] Adama's back.
::Good enough for me. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 02:16, 12 October 2007 (CDT)
:::And so if Zarek had said, "Artemis has returned to Olympus. Starbuck's back.", then this would mean that Artemis was the head god of the Colonials? There are 12 gods living in Olympus, ya know.
:::[i]Boomer: I think those are the Gates of Hera.
:::Starbuck: You think?
:::Boomer: I'm putting together a lot of pieces from a lot of sources beyond your scriptures. If I'm right, that's the spot where your God supposedly stood and watched Athena throw herself down onto the rocks below out of despair over the exodus of the 13 tribes.[/i]
:::It's possible that the Colonials were once monotheistic and their God was Hera. And if it's possible, then you can't say their head god is Zeus. Who is the President of the Colonies? Zeus (Adama) or Hera (Roslin)? The Cylon God, as I indicated above, could be Jupiter. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 02:01, 13 October 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Navigation in the Re-imagined Series/Archive 1

2007-10-13T06:43:00Z

MHall: New section: Triangulation

This article comprises the topics on navigation from a past larger article version of [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]], broken out for later expansion and page size considerations. The Reaction Control System article and parts of the FTL article are also included. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:13, 11 October 2006 (CDT)

There may be a significant error in the section on distances. The 30 minute communications delay between Adar and Roslin is most likely a total round trip delay -- 15 minutes each way, not 30. This would mean that all distances, times, and speeds derived from this number should be halved. --[[User:Girckin|Girckin]] 21:22, 7 November 2006 (CST)
:When Roslin later speaks to 'Jack' over the wireless, there is no such delay whatsoever. Billy may have meant the time it takes to get Roslin's speech from the plane to the President's eyes, or some delay in that process. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:07, 2 January 2007 (CST)

== Cleanup ==

I've tagged this for clean-up, it is a mess, for example it has self references, assumptions and original research, which are not encyclopaedic. [[User:MatthewFenton|MatthewFenton]] 15:44, 30 December 2006 (CST)

:Keep in mind, before you make changes, that ''Battlestar Galactica'' is a work of fiction. The information in this encyclopedia is self-referencing sometimes because it is it's own universe. Much of the research involves [[BW:CJ#Derived content|derived content]], which is allowable if it is based on information provided by official information in the show. Be careful not to apply the original research processes os Wikipedia here; they do not fully apply. Please note what items you consider original research so all can review them and determine if the items are derived content or ''unsourced original research'', also known as [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]], which is not allowable here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:53, 30 December 2006 (CST)
::"We know that Battlestar Galactica's universe sticks to the same speed of light constant as real-world Earth (and the universe, of course): 186,282 miles per second." - Who is we? Is we me and the wiki, if so how do I know, how does we know? - Basically you should never use the word "we" here -- Self-referencing isn't just writing down text, an example of self-referencing would be an episode page.
:::"Given the velocities involved, extremely high accelerations must be used to attain them in reasonable (useable [''sic'']) time frames involved for in-system transportation. Such G forces would kill any humans involved unless some means of dampening them were employed. Given that the technology to perform "space-folding" FTL Jumps is also available, the technology to manipulate gravity would lie in the same area." - space-folding, when has space-folding been mentioned in the series?
::::Just two things that immediately jump out at me. This page reads like an essay to me at least. [[User:MatthewFenton|MatthewFenton]] 17:34, 1 January 2007 (CST)

:::I agree, Matthew. We can neutralize the writing to make it leas like an essay. If you don't get to it, I'll make the changes. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:37, 1 January 2007 (CST)

:::: About space-folding: While it hasn't been stated on screen, I recall an interview with Moore and/or Eick, where they said that they wanted to actually show the spacefolding effect in more detail, but couldn't get it to look good. So at the end they settled for the current effect. Or it might even be in "33" or "Miniseries" podcast. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:39, 2 January 2007 (CST)

:::::It was from the miniseries DVD commentary, I believe. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:00, 2 January 2007 (CST)

== 'What happened in "Scattered"' section ==

I've just deleted the entire "What happened in Scattered" section, as it was [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]]. [[User:Whalepelt|Whalepelt]] 20:14, 28 February 2007 (CST)
:I disagree. I think this still falls under derived content. It's more speculative than most articles, but in line with some others, especially in the science section. But it's not made-up outright, nor does it try to explain away inexplicable plotholes (which is what fanwanking is for me). Most it was deduction from a few lines in the episode (like needing to make new starfixes, and the relaying of the jump coordinates), together with some other FTL facts we know, like the need for computations and the concept of a [[blind jump]]. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:30, 1 March 2007 (CST)
::I {{support}} the deletion. I'm a big proponent of the science pages (having authored most of them), but as I re-read this section, I realized that there isn't any episode sourcing for the piece, however well-thought out. This section is truly fanwank; to be derived content, it has to know the procedures (not just supposed technical mechanics) of FTL navigation as explained in the show, and that hasn't been detailed in any episode at this time. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:10, 1 March 2007 (CST)
:::There are snippets of dialogue to back it up. There is the conversation between Saul and Ellen Tigh (referenced in the text), where he explains the basics. And there it's also said that jump plots are continually updated and that Gaeta forgot to send the new ones. So what happened? Something like a blind jump. They had a jump plot, but a wrong one and ended up in a random place unknown to ''Galactica''. We know that such jumps are possible, but they are unpredictable; exactly what happened here. Yeah, it could be sourced better, but the explanation doesn't come out of thin air. The last paragraph is pure speculation and not explained in the episode either, but it's the only possible explanation for what happened. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:30, 1 March 2007 (CST)
::::I see your point, although I don't think I can quantify it. Could you readd the relevant parts with supporting sources? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 1 March 2007 (CST)
:::::Done, and it's better than before. I put the Tigh quote in a footnote, and made a clearer reference to blind jumps. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:37, 1 March 2007 (CST)
:::::I'm cool with it. Nice work! --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:02, 1 March 2007 (CST)

== FTL jump calculations ==
*Elevation
*Rotation
*Distance

"Here, the dimension of distance would represent more than just a straight line, plotted through three-dimensional space but the amount of space curvature that the jump drive would have to fold."

Not true, they can just be [[w:Spherical_coordinate_system|Spherical coordinates]], which draws a line of length r (note the similar notation to radius), but with a specific orientation in space depending the angles θ and φ. No special space-folding math here.--[[User:DuMan|DuMan]] 16:28, 30 June 2007 (CDT)
:Mhh, true. Guess we can just change this to general coordinates, and say that they could be either cartesian or spherical. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:41, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

== No credit! ==

I went to ''all that trouble'' of witing about and calculating the time dilation, an addition that I originally made at [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] over a year ago, but now I find it on this page, and I am not in either page's edit history! What's up with that? I thought this was cc-''by''-sa. Where is my frakkin' credit?!! --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 05:26, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

:Oh, I guess I am still in the edit history at [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]]. I missed it. Anyway, wasn't really mad about it; just was looking for the time dilation info and couldn't find it on that page. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 05:30, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

::Your contributions were probably moved over to this article when the original science article was split over several pages because it became too long and about too many topics (at least I think that's what happened). But technically we don't have page ownership here ;( --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:38, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
::Right, no page ownership, but attribution is required by the license. An editor's work is released to BSG wiki under the cc license, and BSG wiki releases it to others in the same way. But it doesn't matter, I was just making a big deal about it because I couldn't find the text when I wanted to. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 07:03, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

== Triangulation ==

You say, "To calculate the approximate distance between the Colonies and Earth, using the map to the left, one must first get the distance between the Lagoon Nebula and Earth, 4,100 light-years. One must then determine the distance between the point labeled 'Earth' and the point labeled 'Lagoon Nebula.'" Well, that would be 4,100 light-years. You meant 'Colonies' and 'Lagoon Nebula' or 'Colonies' and 'Earth'. However, these distances are unknown, and so I don't see where the 10,250 light year estimate came from. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 01:43, 13 October 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Zeus/Archive 1

2007-10-11T22:52:09Z

MHall: New page: As noted in the discussion for the general religion page, I warn, in no uncertain terms, that you may be committing blasphemy by saying that Jupiter is another name for Zeus. --~~~~

As noted in the discussion for the general religion page, I warn, in no uncertain terms, that you may be committing blasphemy by saying that Jupiter is another name for Zeus. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 17:52, 11 October 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)/Archive 1

2007-10-11T22:45:10Z

MHall: correction of a correction of a correction

== Lords of Kobol ==
Does the existance of the Mercury class Battlestars imply that Hermes/Mercury is a Lord of Kobol? --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 15:15, 18 October 2006 (CDT)+
:The writers of the show are dancing about in the usage of Greek and Roman mythological names. Since Hermes hasn't been mentioned specifically as a Lord, no, we can't add it. I'm not big on mixing the pantheons until the context of the names in the show are clear. We have a list of names (Greek, mostly) of names heard of ships or used as people, but until used in in the context as a Lord, we shouldn't assume that the name is actually that of a Lord. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:20, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::That makes sense. It occured to me after I wrote the above that the name could refer to quicksilver, which would make sense if the Mercury class was faster than earlier ones. That would also tidy up the roman nomenclature.
::Where is the list of names you mentioned? --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 15:30, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
:::See the section, "Other mythological names in Colonial culture," this article. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:28, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::::LMAO. I was searching all over this site. It didn't occur to me that it'd be in the same article I was commenting on. --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 20:47, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

The article mentions that seven lords have been identified. Anyone notice this is the same as the number of identified cylons? It could be that each cylon model represents a lord (i.e. Sharon - Athena, Six (or maybe three) - Hera). The 5 unidentified cylons match 5 unidentified lords match the 5 in the temple of five. On a related note: how about the (norse) idea of an allfather - the Cylons recognize the allfather, but none of the lower "gods" (including the Lords of Kobol). I suppose this would be an alternate theory to the Jealous God being the god of cylons. --[[User:Ublej|Ublej]] 17:29, 4 January 2007 (CST)
:The Colonials have Zeus as the boss of all other gods. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:32, 4 January 2007 (CST)

== More Cowbell ==
Actually, more images, please. Great text content, but a couple of more images applied evenly would really brighten things up. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:04, 8 December 2006 (CST)
:Ooh. And there are some XHTML problems. I'll get on those. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:25, 8 December 2006 (CST)

== Out-of-Universe Referencing and Revision ==

I get very confused with voice when reading this article, where we speak of the Colonials and compare it to real-world references. I wanted to keep these important notes in but not to the point where we had to discuss every detail or explanation. With that in mind, I got bold:

*The two articles that go overboard in discussing the Greek Gods and Greek Mythology are deleted, per Battlestar Wiki policy: We aren't a general encyclopedia, so Wikipedia links to more extensive articles should do for this. Both articles have been discussed of late as being redundant or just plain nongermane.

*This article's out-of-universe notes were moved as footnotes. This simplifies the read but keeps the voice of the article in discussing the Colonials, not the Colonials-vs.-Greek-vs.-Norse. Note that the terms "Greek", Norse, and the like are also removed or pulled; these don't exist in the series and it makes it confusing to make the comparison. The name of the gods usually explain it all but the important points are now footnotes.

I'm finding that reading articles that analyze the Colonials and Cylons take too much from the real-world to form their explanations when in-universe comments work well without overly drawn out comparisons. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:28, 12 January 2007 (CST)

:While I support the idea, I think it's possible to take it too far. If we take your approach to the extreme, it's impossible to have any real-world references in articles, which happens fairly often and is simply necessary in some cases. I think that this is more important:
:That the ''main'' voice of an article is "in-universe". Meaning no general real-world articles, but "in-universe" articles can contain a few real-world references if necessary.

:Case in point my new [[Mythological references]] page, which generally goes like "<ship/place name> - <significance in the show> <real world reference>". I didn't go out of my way to hide the Greek/Roman/Norse allusions in "in-universe" explinations, like saying that Greek mythology is really Colonial mythology in the context of the show (it probably is in fact, but that's more something for this article).

:However, in this article here, it's appropriate to only detail the religious stuff as it pertains to the Colonials, and not to the real world. So we could keep the "Mythological references" article seperate, delete the references here (which I copied anyways) and link to it from here, as a place that deals with mythology that goes beyond religion and also includes more real-life explinations and links. That would help to keep the POVs seperate --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:56, 13 January 2007 (CST)

::I concur. Whereever we can keep the in-universe voice, great. Where out-of-universe comparisons must be in line with the text to keep the article germane and sensible, it's also fine. The recent articles you built/rebuilt exemplify good uses of that practice. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:06, 30 January 2007 (CST)

==Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies==

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to
suggest that the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the
Cylons. They are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than
Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans. So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord
or at the very least evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for
enlightenment, in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to
refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness
perhaps even conciousness of the lords in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the
lords. The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see
developing in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious
leader in the original series has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his
fellow cylons to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And
yet, strangely, he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother
cylons, something you would expect of an Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in
heaven, he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a
member of a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself
(greek gods), how satanic might he appear? An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satan's flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rule in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in
hell. So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica/ Aphrodite, Sharon
Athena and Deanna/Hestia(?). Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?

Adama and Laura as Zeus and Hera? Two reason for two of the final five to stay
where they are. They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the
flow, well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of
Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and
wonderful in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge
advances by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of
Stargate or the Vorlons of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with
higher beings in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty
realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a
new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a
metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end
sounds far more believeable than actual gods and godesses co-existing with man. (mevenstar)

:I think a more likely explanation is that whoever designed the humanoid cylons chose to use the lords as an inspiration or possibly the design was intended to mock the 12 lords and thus humanity itself. They chose 12 archetypes to define humanity saying basically all of you have one of these 12 personality types and that's it. I don't think the lords are using the cylons as avatars. Sounds too mystical. I also don't think time travel is involved and that somehow the cylons will one day go back into the past and become the lords.

:I don't really have a theory on exactly what the lords of kobol are but I do think the cylon god is a rogue lord of kobol. I also think the 13th tribe worshipped this rogue lord first. The 13th tribe left kobol because the other 12 pagan tribes were sacrifing humans and indulging in cannibalism. They first found the algae planet and built the temple of five which was dedicated to the five priests who worshipped the one whose name cannot be mentioned. This one whose name cannot be mentioned is almost certainly a rogue lord of kobol. If the priests were worshipping this one god this tells me the entire 13th tribe had the one god.

:Throughout the series we have seen the cylons talk about revelations from god and talk of his commandments. What is the source for this divine inspiration? I suspect the 12 colonies like we in the real world had scholars who studied ancient religions in the real world. They had reference books, academic papers, unearthed archeological artifacts and various other things that set out to paint a picture of what the 13th tribe was like. This information about the 13th tribe and their worship of the one god was known to the mechanical cylons before work on the humanoid models began and became the foundation of the cylon religion.

:The cylons have (more or less) adopted the religion of the 13th tribe. The commandments they speak of are what God demanded of the 13th tribe (an example god commands them to procreate). The humanoid models may not even be entirely aware that their religion mirrors the 13th tribe's ancient religion. This desire to find earth is also part of this borrowed (and possibly distorted) religion. The cylons want to find earth because according to their religion earth is the promised land...and it probably was...for the 13th colony. [[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 12:06, 30 January 2007.

== Lords of Kobol vs other gods ==

I don't think it's sensible to assume that every god or goddess mentioned is a Lord of Kobol. Case in point [[Aurora, Goddess of the Dawn]]. The Greeks didn't just have the Twelve Olympians (after whom the Lords seem to directly modeled after), but also minor deities. No reason the Colonials shouldn't as well. Another example is Nike, who is mentioned - even if not by name - in "Torn". She hang around with Zeus, and is often portrayed together with Athena, but is not a real Olympian. 
I suggest we have another header called "Other gods" or "Other deities" for those, with maybe a footnote stating that their status is uncertain. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:08, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

:I've generally felt that any god mentioned in the context of worship was a Lord of Kobol--the Colonials are very monotheistic. However, since we don't have clearer contexts for some, such as names used in [[Temple]] or something, it may be safe not to read too much into them. Some could be counterparts to [[w:Saint|saints]] for all we know. I agree that the Olympian/Titan arguments are meaningless here since Roman versions and other religions get mixed about. I generally agree with your comments. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:39, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::The Colonials use Greek and Roman names interchangeably, but that doesn't have anything to do with the Olympian/Lords of Kobol parallel. I just have a feeling that that are just twelve Lords of Kobol who are direct parallel to the ancient Olympians. However, there have been a lot of mentions of other mythological figures and gods, especially in the ship names. Or usually when asked about believes it's more "Do you believe in the gods?" instead of "Do you believe in the Lords of Kobol". There is no definite statement that "gods" refers to the Lords of Kobol exclusively, even if they are clearly the main gods. Could go either way. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:06, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::They're certainly [[w:polytheism|polytheistic]], not [[w:monotheism|monotheistc]], please read the definitions carefully. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 12:07, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::I meant "poly" and mistyped. Thanks. The notion that there are twelve Lords of Kobol is a TOS misconception that seems to have moved to RDM; I don't know of a citation for that. It's a lot easier to say "gods" than "Lords of Kobol", of course. While there could be other monothesistic or polythestic faiths with the Colonials, only one "sect" or denomination has been established officially: the five priests of the [[Temple of Five]]. Must be significant: they got a temple out of it in the middle of nowhere. -- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:13, 18 April 2007 (CDT) ([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contribs]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|WonderNumbers]])
::::I get what you're saying, but I noticed a tendency here lately to push one kind of agenda, when there isn't much concrete evidence to pursue another equally valid interpretation. Obviously something needs to be written, but lack of concrete evidence for point A doesn't prove point B. There is no evidence for there being more than 12 Lords of Kobol either, though Occam's Razor would probably come to that conclusion then. But there are theories that the Lords were originally human leaders of the tribes who were deified later (even before the exodus from Kobol). It's speculation, but agrees with the quotes from the scriptures...As said, it could be either way.
::::However, this has nothing to do with different faiths. Nothing prevents a worshiper of the Lord of Kobol to also recognize or worship certain either deities. The ancient Greeks didn't only worship the Olympians for example. Exclusive worship is somewhat of a monotheistic concept. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:36, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::I don't think we even know if all the named Olympians are Lords of Kobol. Maybe "Lords of Kobol" is synonymous with "the gods", maybe it refers exclusively to the Olympian Dodekatheon, maybe it includes the Dodekatheon and the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, maybe it only includes a few of the Olympians. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:35, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::My point is that we haven't been explicitly told of any other ''faiths'', which differs from the number of gods. A single god can be worshipped differently based on many different faith structures, such as the Jews and Christians do. We haven't been given ''any'' data that suggests that their are other central faith structures other than the Lords of Kobol and God (with the [[five priests]]' diety being a possible exception). There are obviously different "denominations", for lack of a better term (Gemonese and Sagittarons do this), but I don't tend to interpret matters any further. Be it 10 or 10,000 Lords, they may fall under the same central faith structure. We don't know, so I don't try to interpret it much, but just drop it in the place that best fits. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:47, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::::Agreed. There is only evidence of one religion practiced in the twelve colonies, with various sects, denominations and personal interpretations, however it seems to be, for the most part, relatively uniform. There are two possible exceptions, however both of them may be particularly divergent sects / denominations of the colonial religion. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:28, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::::: I disagree with the assumption that Aurora is a Lord of Kobol. She may be a god, but that doesn't make her a Lord of Kobol. I don't think anyone familiar with Greek mythology would think she fits with Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite, Artemis, Apollo, Athena, etc.

:::::::: I disagree with the assumption that Jupiter is just another name for Zeus and Mars is just another name for Ares. This has not been demonstrated on the show. However, I do realize that I'm the only one who thinks this way and that no one can grasp that they might be slightly different entities, like one a clone of the other. What if Jupiter is the Cylon God, while Zeus is a Colonial god. Think of the sacrilege your Wiki page is committing then!!! Remember ''only a Cylon'' has ever mentioned the god Jupiter. The Sacred Scrolls have (thus far) never mentioned this god - only Zeus, Hera, and the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, whom I think is Jupiter. The temple of Five is for the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, and the Sacred Scrolls tell us that the Eye of Jupiter is in the Temple of Five. Do the math. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 17:45, 11 October 2007 (CDT)

== About Hera ==

I've recently gone through several Lord of Kobol articles and removed the Greek mythological references since this information isn't needed here (we're not a general encyclopedia) and because the Earth information doesn't always mesh with the series information. Right now, there's enough references for each Lord to stand on their own without out-of-universe comparisons.

One note about Hera. In our mythology she is the wife AND sister of Zeus (gross as that might be to some). I was about to revert [[User:Mudflap|Mudflap's]] recent deletion of the "sister" part when I realized after checking that the show has NOT noted this element of Hera in its own mythology. So, that stands for now. As I said, there is sufficient mythology generated by the show itself now to avoid adding much from our universe to theirs. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:15, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

: Selloi: I have a message for you from the one you worship. He speaks through me to you just as he speaks in your dreams. The message is... the fruit born of two peoples [Three's smile fades.] is alive. A child named after the wife and sister of the all-knowing Zeus. Hera lives.

: So, Hera is wife and sister of Zeus. I think somewhere on the page it says Zeus is the head God of the Colonials. What if Hera is the head God of the Colonials instead? I don't think it's been established that Zeus is the head God for the Colonials. He is all-knowing, true. --[[User:MHall|MHall]] 17:45, 11 October 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Timeline (RDM)/Archive5

2007-02-27T14:25:02Z

MHall: /* Ancient history */

{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 01
| number = 1
| start = July 28th, 2005
| end = November 31st, 2005
| items = {{archive-item|01|Caprica Boomer's conception and morning sickness}} {{archive-item|01|Home II}} {{archive-item|01|Saul and Bill vs. The Evil Cylons}} {{archive-item|01|Untangling Season 2|end=y}}
|}}

{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 02
| number = 2
| start = January 7th, 2006
| end = March 22nd, 2006
| items = {{archive-item|02|6 months?}} {{archive-item|02|Duration of Home, Part I}} {{archive-item|02|Roslin's life expectancy after "Epiphanies"}} {{archive-item|02|When is the Presidential Election?}} {{archive-item|02|Timing of Events of Black Market and later episodes}} {{archive-item|02|The Ten Weeks thing in "Downloaded"}} {{archive-item|02|Flight Of The Phoenix Chronology Note}} {{archive-item|02|Fine Tuning "Black Market" Through "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I"|end=y}}
|}}

{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 03
| number = 3
| start = March 22nd, 2006
| end = Present
| items = {{archive-item|03|Timeline Image}} {{archive-item|03|Days v. Day}} {{archive-item|03|Dating "The Captain's Hand"}} {{archive-item|03|Future Events}} {{archive-item|03|"Circa:" the enemy of all anal historians|end=y}}
|}}

== the Colonial calender ==

Since '''Hero''' has revealed how the Colonial calender counts it's years and the the "current" year is 21,356 the timeline should be updated. ([[User:Alphaboi867|Alphaboi867]] 19:27, 19 November 2006 (CST))
: I disagree with the usage of these dates, particularly in lieu of [[:Image:Execution Order Signature.png|the document Baltar signed]] in "[[Precipice]]". -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:53, 19 November 2006 (CST)
*Indeed, the document gives that particular day as "3454-91". -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 21:23, 19 November 2006 (CST)
::There's even a different (third) timekeeping system used on Adama's letter of resignation in "Hero". The Dossier is useful for pinning down relative dates, but I don't think we should read too much into the calendar system. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:25, 20 November 2006 (CST)
:::There's also a not-so-clear chart on Laura Roslin in "Epiphanies", which was located at the foot of her sickbay bed. We see this briefly and it is blurry enough not to make out specific numbers, but said document appears to be using a different dating structure as well. Also, given the [[Cimtar Peace Accords]] documents and [[Cylon Centurion Model 0005]] in the mini-series, the documents should be treated with a healthy skepticism. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:13, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Another thought... in general, I have to say that we should probably avoid using in-universe dating, and go with keeping the dating system as simple as possible (using the Fall of the Colonies as a baseline). Since there is more than enough evidence thus far proving that the in-universe dating system is inconsistently applied, I believe using this would only lead to horrible inaccuracies, the bane of any reference's existence. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:13, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==The Hero Continuity Discrepency==
Given the amount of discussion it has generated on other BSG websites I have been surprised to note that the enormous continuity errors in Hero haven't been discussed here. Namely the error that Adama was on board Valkyrie 1 year before the attacks and was given command of Galactica afterwards as a retirement posting, yet in You Can't Go Home Again he states that he has commanded Starbuck "On THIS ship," for more than 2 years. There's also the problem that he served with Tyrol for 5 years (and Tyrol listed all of the battlestars he served on in Resistance and Valkyrie wasn't one of them), Gaeta for 3 years prior to the attack, Boomer for 2 years and Captain Kelly for some time as well (didn't he say 2 years as well in the mini?). I can see Adama taking Tigh with him from Valkyrie to Galactica, but 5 other crewmen as well? And a fairly random selection at that (a flight operations officer, a bridge officer, a nugget, a pilot, a deckhand, assuming Tyrol was in a more junior post at that time)? Plus only Tigh and Adama knew Bulldog. Starbuck and Tyrol seemed to have no idea who he was.

To add to the chaos, Adama seems to genuinely believe that he could have sparked the Attack on the Colonies. This is impossible as Adama served with Boomer for 2 years prior to the Attack, thus the Cylons were infiltrating the Colonies 1 year before the Valkyrie mission and Adama knows this. By itself, this seems to indicate that the Valkyrie mission must take place considerably earlier than it is claimed.

Possible solutions:
1) Adama was in charge of Galactica and went to Valkyrie to do this one special mission, requesting that Bulldog and Tigh go with him. UNLIKELY: Tyrol, Starbuck and Athena should still have recognised Bulldog (they missed a trick by not having Bulldog bump into Athena, recognise her as a Cylon and freaking out btw). Bulldog definitely was not on Galactica before as he wanted to know what Adama was doing on such an old ship. This is still problematic as Boomer's presence would tell Adama that the Cylons were already infiltrating the Colonies, thus his mission had nothing to do with the Attack.

2) The producers forgot about the year on New Caprica, so the Valkyrie mission was actually 2 years before the Attack. However, this causes problems in that Adama had still served with Gaeta and Tyrol by that point. Moving it back to 3 years before the Attack (meaning the producers forgot about the year on New Caprica and nine months the series spanned before that as well, which seems ludicrous) only gives us Tyrol to worry about and that can be explained by Tyrol being on Valkyrie (and serving on the other flight pod to the one Bulldog used and being in a junior position, so he never worked with him) and going with the Old Man to Galactica (and forgetting to list Valkyrie among his previous posts). That seems to be fine. The only problem with this is that this means that Bulldog was a prisoner of the Cylons for SIX years, not three, a very considerable difference.

Solution: There isn't one. At least with the last big screw-up (Flight of the Phoenix) it was possible to come to a conclusion by saying that episode took place over two to three months. With this problem, it seems totally self-contradictory (I wonder if RDM didn't do a podcast for this episode simply because he realised how messed up the timeline was).

EDIT: I just found some discussion on the Hero episode page, which basically seems to reach the same conclusion I did: there isn't an explanation except the dialogue in this episode is plain wrong. Oh well.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 16:24, 26 November 2006 (CST)
 
*If we're supposing that the current year is 21356 (based on Adama's 45 years in service beginning in 21311), this is the only explanation I've found that works in the timeline:

:*D6/21311 First commission: Battlestar Galactica fighter squadron
...
:*C2/21345 Commander: Battlestar Valkyrie
:*C2/21348 Commander: Battlestar Galactica
...
:*''21353 Commissioned for Valkyrie mission/Bulldog captured/Adama sent back to Galactica to retire (this wouldn't be on Adama's service record)''
:*''21354 Cylons attack the 12 Colonies''
:*''21356 Bulldog returns/Adama awarded medal of distinction.''

'''Further explanation:''' Since the time frame is fuzzy, it could be explained in retrospect that Adama had already fallen out of favor with the Admiralty and been stationed on Galactica for 5 years before they gave him one final chance to return to his old ship and crew. If he succeeded, he'd resume command of the Valkyrie; if he failed, he'd gracefully retire with Galactica. He failed, but this time took Tigh with him. Bulldog was asking Tigh how ''he'' ended up on Galactica, not specifically Adama. This fits the dialogue AND the timeline, and would not appear on the service record due to it being a black-ops mission. --[[User:Empire279|Empire279]] 19:56, 9 December 2006 (CST)

== Unfinished Business ==
I just got done with this episode and it confused me a little over the timeline so I came here to try to clear it up, but I find I'm just further confused.

The events at the groundbreaking were 17 months before the episode and 8 months before the Cylon occupation of New Caprica. What confused me at first was since The Resistance covered the 4 months after the occupation, the exodus from New Caprica must have taken place 12 months after the groundbreaking, meaning the fleet has been traveliing again for 5 months. This didn't seem right to me, though I don't think there's anything essentially wrong with it - I just felt like it had been a shorter time.

But when I came here to try to clear it up I ran into this:

Day 660 (380th day since settlement): Cylon forces occupy New Caprica.

If this happened a year after the order to settle New Caprica (as shown in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]), that would lead me to believe that the order was given on day 300. And that the grounbreaking was on day 420 (8 months before the occupation). But the timelime has these fixed at about Day 285 and Day 315 respectively.

The date of the settlement order isn't that bad - a difference of 15 days from what I expected could easily be rounded off to 1 year. But the groundbreaking listed at day 315 doesn't make any sense to me given the jump of one year in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] and the fact that the groundbreaking was 8 months before the occupation ([[Unfinished Business]]).

Can anyone shed any light on this?

[EDIT] I thought about this a bit more, and while I was a little surprised at the dates involved, I think the biggest problem is why the groundbreaking for the colony is a full four months after the order to settle on New Caprica - something that is simply a problem from the show itself, and not something a timeline can work around.

--[[User:Jp Corkery|Jp Corkery]] 06:16, 7 December 2006 (CST)

:Was it the groundbreaking for the colony of New Caprica City itself (which was already being settled) or for some building or structure there? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:10, 13 December 2006 (CST)

:I too assumed it was the groundbreaking of some random building. However, the (unofficial) transcript says:
:"(Baltar breaks ground on the settlement to the sound of applause and cheers; Jammer and Duck are there.)
:Baltar: Thank you. Let this day be remembered as the day we broke ground for our new tomorrow."
:I don't know. His rhetoric definitely sounds a bit grandiose for an administration building or a hospital (not to mention having the big party that was thrown). Troubling... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 19:45, 13 December 2006 (CST)

:I too believe it was for the settlement as a whole and not just a building, perhaps it was a little of both. The ground breaking could had been for the first '''''permanent''''' building for the settlement on [[New Caprica]] as opposed to mere tents and huts. At any rate, we are give hard dates in which to measure the passage of time and I agree that the non flashback events of [[Unfinished Business]] takes place five months after the events of [[Collaborators]], I think that was the last time we were given a hard and fast date before Unfinished Business ("three days after the Second Exodus"). Also, I don't think it was just two days after the events of [[Hero]] that the events of Unfinished Business happened. I don't think after the bad beating Adm. Adama got at the hands of Lt. Novacek he would climb into a boxing ring just two days later, I don't think Doctor Cottle would allow it. I feel at least a week if not two seems more reasonable. And for the record I think it was more than a few days between Unfinished business and [[The Passage]]. I think two weeks at least feels more comfortable for the Colonials to detect the problem and then conduct a search while the fleets previously processed non contaminated food supply that people had in their cubbards and refrigerators a chance to deplete. From the looks at when Lee Adama, Starbuck and company wolfed down their remaining food it was a considerable amount of time between finding the problem to near starvation. It must be noted no matter what, Galactica is on a different time flow than we are. After all there have been only about 8 episodes (treat [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]] & [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II|II]], [[Occupation]] & [[Precipice]] and [[Exodus, Part I]] & [[Exodus, Part II|II]] as three two hour episodes each) between the events of [[Downloaded]] and the birth of [[Hera]] (aired May 2, 2006); and the events in [[The Eye of Jupiter]], when Athena learned that she was still alive (aired December 15, 2006). Only eight months have passed in our time but that is two years elapsed time in Galactica's timeline at least. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 03:57, 21 December 2006 (CST)

:When I watched I thought that it was the first permanent building as well, as opposed to provisional tents. And that they used that ocassion for a general celebration --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:04, 22 December 2006 (CST)

==Justification of the change of the timeline==

I have just edited the time line from the benchmark Day 285 to 315 as outlined in the previous [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] timeline post. It is assumed by the previous person that posted it that the Colonials begin to land on New Caprica for permanent settlement in the thirty days between day 285 and day 315. I essentially split the difference and say they began to disembark civilians to the planet on day 300. That is day one of the settlement of New Caprica not when Baltar did the ground breaking ceremony, which I calculate to be approximately four months later or approximately day 420; that is Day 300 + 120 days=420. Now I derived this because the first flash back of [[Unfinished Business]] gave the dates "17 months ago, 8 months before the Occupation" or words to that effect. At the end of '''Lay Down your Burdens Part II''' a Doral unit said they spotted the light of Gina's nuclear blast that left the Fleet the year before. Now the Cylons may be derived from machines, computers, but they have not demonstrated that they are as exacting in speech and time measurement as the android Lt. Commander Data was or the Vulcans Spock, T'Pol, Tuvok were, or the former Borg "7 of 9" was in the various '''Star Trek''' series, so they estimate like humans. On the other hand also like humans I don't think they would round off eight months into a year. A full four months or 120 days is being chopped off doing that, so I believe when Doral said they noticed the blast of light that came from the vicinity of New Caprica a year ago (from the Colonial's perspective), I believe he means just about a year, give a week or two less or more than a year, not a full four months less than a chronological year. Also, I don't think it took four months for the Cylons to figure out where the blast came from. Just follow the flash of light and make a bee line for the source. From that, if the Cylons landed almost exactly a year later, then that ground breaking ceremony was four months after the first settlers landed on New Caprica since the occupation was stated to be eight months (240 days) in the future. From there, we know that the occupation lasted only four months (120 days) before the Exodus. That places the Exodus almost exactly one year after the ground breaking by Baltar on New Caprica. So you have 12 total months (385-365 days) of settlement in freedom on NC, then four months of occupation for a total of approximately 16 months or approximately 420 days.

In '''Unfinished Business''' it was stated that the events of '''Unfinished Business''' happened 17 months-about 510 days-after the ground breaking and eight months-240 days-before the occupation. Combine that with the total length of the occupation, four months or 120 days, that would mean that from the point of the ground breaking to the Exodus it is almost exactly 1 year or 12 months or 360-365 days in time.

Now you have approximately 17 months (approximately 510 days) from the ground breaking on New Caprica to '''Unfinished Business'''; minus approximately 12 months (365 days) from that groundbreaking to the events in [[Collaborators]] (which was three days after the Exodus); which equals approximately five months or 145-150 days left. That means that five months since the Exodus has elapsed between '''Collaborators''' and '''Unfinished Business'''. Now some of the dates are not exact given that some of them are estimates, especially the two week window the previous time line gave for the settlement of NC given previously: "Between c. Day 285 and c. Day 315". I as noted settled on day 300 that the settlement started allowing for the Galactica crew to do a two week survey of the location of New Caprica City.But the start of the settlement process could had started as much as two weeks later and still be plausible to meet Doral's "we noticed the nuclear blast in the time it took for light from it to reach us" explanation. However, given the hard dates we are given. It can be safely derived that five months have passed between '''Collaborators''' and '''Unfinished Business'''.

Incidentally I do disagree with the closeness of events in episodes as outlined after '''Collaborators'''. It seems that the original person who did it thinks the episodes happen within two or three days of one another. I don't think that is the case. As I just shown there is a five moth gap of time between '''Collaborators''' and [[Unfinished Business]], plenty of room to spread out the three episodes in between-[[Torn]], [[A Measure of Salvation]] and [[Hero]]. I think there is a need for a gap particularly between '''Hero''' and '''Unfinished Business'''. I don't think Adama would climb into a ring two days after being beaten so badly by Lt. Novacek. A gap of at the very least of a week should be there; more like two weeks. Even more so, I also think that there is a wide gap between '''Unfinished Business''' and [[The Passage]]. I don't think the Fleet would reach starvation levels within a month of the discovery of the contamination. They would need time to find a suitable planet as well. However, I did leave the two day gaps between episodes since I don't have any alternative time line regarding that, just common sense. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 10:13, 21 December 2006 (CST)

:I'm sorry, I can't stand by this. The Day 385 date was better in the asbsence of any knowledge to the contrary, and "Unfinished Business" does not supply that. The groundbreaking was explicitly not for the colony, which Dualla even remarked had existed for at least a month prior. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:22, 23 December 2006 (CST)

::I happen to agree with you that New Caprica was being settled long before Baltar stuck his shovel in the ground. I thought I made that clear before, but I didn't so I am re-editing my previous post (the one you are answering). And while '''Unfinished Business''' doesn't supply an exact date as to when the first settlers landed, I think the Doral unit who answered Baltar when the Cylons arrived gave us a good idea. In '''Lay Down Your Burdens Part II''' A Doral said that they noticed the light of Gina's Nuclear blast just about then, which is why it took them a year to show up at New Caprica, given the speed of light. In other words the Cylons were about a light year away when Cloud 9 blew up. Since it is almost certain the settlement of New Caprica started soon after (the civilians were just itching to get out of the "boxes" that were the spaceships), and by settlement I mean putting up the first tents and huts with civilians living in them, that means the settlement started a year before the Cylon invasion. It took a year for the light of Gina's explosion to reach the Cylons. The ground breaking took place eight months before the Cylons came or roughly four months after the first settlers arrived. Again, I speculate that the ground breaking was for a '''''permanent''''' building in New Caprica City, perhaps the Administration/Detention Center? Maybe its original purpose was to be the New Caprica City city hall? [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 03:29, 25 December 2006 (CST)

== Episode timeline slight adjustment ==

I spread out the episode incidences between day 800 of [[Collaborators]] and day 950 of [[Unfinished Business]]. I left the small time gap between [[Torn]] and [[A Measure of Salvation]] sincethe latter does occur very shortly after the former. In fact, I narrowed the gap between them to only one day. Again, I am trying to use common sense to get a feel as to when the episodes happened. From this I believe there was a gap of about two weeks between [[Hero]] and Unfinished Business because it would take about two weeks for Admiral Adama to recover from the beating Lt. Novacek gave him, but I think that beating gave Adama the idea of a boxing match to get the bile out of the system of the crew, seeing how "therapeutic" it was for both Saul and Novacek. Conversely I think only a day would be needed between the events of "Torn" and "A Measure of Salvation" to access the Cylons and formulate and execute a plan to recon the disabled Baseship. They don't want to wait too long less the Cylons come back. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 13:08, 22 December 2006 (CST)
:Good in principle, but I generally don't like guessing dates when we have nothing to go on. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:18, 23 December 2006 (CST)

::I understand what your concerns are, but I think it is better than stacking them back to back to back. That is even more unrealistic IMHO. Having them back to back etc. is no more realistic a representation of when those events happened than spreading them out, in fact less so. At least some thought goes into it using common sense like my idea of not having Adama climb into a boxing ring in "Unfinished Business" allegedly two days after getting a beating from Novacek in "Hero". At least put a two weeks of daylight between the episodes to give the 60-odd year old Adm. Adama time to recover. And the five month gap between "Collaborators" and "Unfinished Business" is much more than guess work, it is using the on screen data available. Three episodes to spread out over five months leaves a lot of room (especially for those who write Battlestar Galactica novels) and if my guesstimate dates are wrong they can be moved when canon information is available. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 19:19, 24 December 2006 (CST)

:::I wasn't responsible for any of the proposed dates for the third season content, so please don't read me as defending whatever was there before you made your contributions. My only concern is that it be clear to viewers that the third season dates are complete guesswork, as opposed to some of the second season dates which can at least be inferred from dialogue. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:28, 26 December 2006 (CST)

==Major Cleanup Needed==
Despite the great work many of us have put into this article, it has become bloated, fraught with inconsistancy and has failed to cite sources within its own text. I think that each of these issues need to be addressed here, and promptly. I have created subsections below for important conversations I believe we need to have. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:17, 26 December 2006 (CST)

===Style Guidelines===
How should this timeline be styled? Things to consider:
*Header structure - do we want to continue using one header per episode? How do we deal with events seen in flashbacks, or alluded to in dialogue? Bear in mind that too many headers creates a cluttery table of contents, but that headers are needed for article structure.
*Summary style - how detailed should episode summaries be? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:17, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:I've normally stayed clear of this article, but last week I was ready to tear this apart after trying to read it through. For one, the episode summaries should hardly exist, with only the barest mention of the timeline item and a source link for more information. With the slowness of the holidays I may still go in and start cleaning this up (we can always re-add from the archived revisions).

:A timeline ''must'' be linear or it makes no sense. As such, "flashbacks" are added in as with other data (these items are usually given some reference date for the audience anyway, making it easy to fit in). The timeline article should NOT be used for plotting continuity errors and the like. If an item has a bad fit, it should be placed in [[Continuity errors (RDM)]] in a special subsection (with a reference link on the central timeline article). The biggest problem with this article (aside from oversized episode summaries) is the fanwanking we do to try to get things to fit. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:45, 26 December 2006 (CST)

===Citation===
Timeline entries ''must'' cite their sources, or when no source is available, provide or link to concise argumentation that takes into account all reasonable viewpoints (excluding patent fanwankery). How should this be done?
*Using citation templates would create a very long and complicated "notes" section, but would have the advantage of making organization easier.
*Alternatively, we could link to small articles in the Sources namespace, such as "Sources:Dates for Exodus, Part II" or "Sources:Exodus, Part II (Timeline)". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:17, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:Reference notes are best handled here for extended notes, but usually an episode cite should be fine. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:39, 26 December 2006 (CST)

===Consistency===
I believe that before we allow modification to existing rationalle, we should allow a reasonable window for debate (one week?) and that after modifications are made, they should be immediately promulgated to other articles which cite this one (including [[survivor count]], and the battle chronology). --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:17, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:Question on consistency - why are some timeline entries italicized and others not? [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 12:56, 26 December 2006 (CST)
::It looks like it started as entries with a footnote were italicized, though that only holds for the first couple entries. However, I would think that the footnote itself is sufficient indication that the entry has a footnote, and would lean towards "unitalicizing" the italicized entries (unless there's some other reason for the italics). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:08, 26 December 2006 (CST)
:::Originally the italics were to be a flag to a continuity error, but maybe there is a more marked way (an icon?) to do it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:39, 26 December 2006 (CST)

===First Revision Complete===
I've heavily concised the timeline, removing guesses and unestablished date stamps, removing unnecessary or excessive episode narrative, moving about special notes and adding a reference section. This brought the article from around 56KB to 39KB, so there is much left to do, thus the cleanup tag. The latter section should be truncated or moved to another article, if the Continuity Errors article doesn't already have this information. We should try to complete cleanup before season 3 resumes. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:43, 26 December 2006 (CST)

Two suggestions: 
1.) Removing the part about predictions that haven't come true. Not needed at all IMO. 
2.) Creating a new article called "Colonial Dates", "Colonial Dating Scheme" or something along that line, moving those paragraphs there and linking to it. 
--[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:44, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:Good ideas. I'll look into it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:12, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:I agree with both suggestions. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:44, 26 December 2006 (CST)

::Done. [[Colonial calendar]] breaks up the information. The past predictions data is already scattered about episode summaries and the like, and has been deleted. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:39, 26 December 2006 (CST)

== I propose to shift "Lay Down Your Burdens Parts I & II" over about 10 days. ==

Why? Because I doubt very much that Sharon Agathon on losing her baby on day 270 (so she thought) and strongly suspecting Adama, Roslin, Cottle or all three of "killing" her she would be in any mood to help the colonials at that time no matter how much she wants to fit in. She may recover quickly physically for such a mission, we saw proof of that with her recovering very quickly after being bombarded with radiation in [[The Passage]], but psychologically I don't think she will bounce back as much. Indeed, in the Raptor on its way to Caprica she was still in morning. I would think that it would be at least a week for Helo to get her to agree to such a mission given her state of mind emotionally. Therefore I believe the anchor date of the mission starting should be day 280 and not day 270. This would give some realistic daylight and distance from the trauma of her loosing her baby and later agreeing to go on the mission. It will also still be in keeping with Tom Zarek's statement about the colonies being couped up in metal boxes for nine months. He may not be talking ''exactly'' nine months. If the elapsed time was really nine months and a fortnight it still would be within the human norm of estimation. Tyrol could start having his nightmares on day 266 instead of 256. Everything else can also be shifted over seven to ten days and not interfere with the beginning of settlement of New Caprica which is guesstimated to have started on day 300. Again the justification is that I doubt very much that Sharon Agathon would be in a state of mind to help the Colonials immediately after her baby dying and suspecting she was murdered. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 20:29, 2 January 2007 (CST)
:Some space is reasonable to assume here. I would only strive to ensure that all references to "nine months" fall within a +/-14 day span of the actual day 270. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 06:32, 3 January 2007 (CST)

==Another Colonial Date in "Precipice"==
Remember in "Hero" where we saw several dates of Adama's with a Colonial dating system? Well I was looking at the premiere, and in the Execution Forms Baltar signs the date for that day is given:
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7797/datejr5.jpg

"'''Second Day of 3454-91'''"...Just thought you might want to know. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:18, 13 January 2007 (CST)

== Split Idea ==

To long. To much of a headache. Spliting this into a series is only best... [[Timeline - Season 1 (RDM)]].. etc. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:07, 2 February 2007 (CST)
: Probably the best idea for this article. However, the [[Timeline (RDM)]] article should remain as an overview of important dates, with the more detailed breakdowns in the [[Timeline - Season 1 (RDM)]], [[Timeline - Season 2 (RDM)]], and [[Timeline - Season 3 (RDM)]] pages. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 02:09, 3 February 2007 (CST)

:Agreed. Leave this page as disambiguation and to present the general idea (as well as the pre-Miniseries timeline) and then link to the sub-pages --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:53, 3 February 2007 (CST)

::I concur. This ideas show allow us to keep this page clean and straightforward with mininum discussion about timeline anomalies. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 10:57, 14 February 2007 (CST)

::Has this page lost its way? Towards the beginning it seems to only catalog events that can be time indexed. Towards the end of it seems more like almost like high-level episode summary. This seems redundant (outside of helping to capture where flashback events take place in the overall timeline). Maybe it's just a matter of trimming down the later summaries to fewer bullets. I'm not exactly sure what bugs me about it... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:01, 14 February 2007 (CST)
:::I somewhat agree. The increasing level of detail in the summaries has been nagging me too. I just think it's unnecessary to repeat every tiny plot point --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:21, 14 February 2007 (CST)
:::Absolutely agreed. When I was shepherding this article, I tried to keep summaries pithy and focused on relevant details, but later contributors have not followed suit. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:51, 14 February 2007 (CST)

:So, is still split still going to happen? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:03, 19 February 2007 (CST)
::Yep. Go ahead and do it my son. :-D [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:05, 19 February 2007 (CST)
:::Ok dad. Will do it tomorrow. I should have gone to bed two hours ago :( --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:07, 19 February 2007 (CST)

Done \o/ Anything left to do here? --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:09, 20 February 2007 (CST)

== Ancient history ==

"2,000 years BCH: The remaining Twelve Tribes leave Kobol"

I contest this point. The THIRTEEN tribes left Kobol 2,000 years ago (for the Colonies.) The THIRTEENTH tribe also left Kobol 4,000 years ago (for Earth, but then they, or somebody else, wound up back at Kobol to restart the cycle.) A plausible inference is that the thirteenth tribe is all twelve tribes together.

Billy: Uh, well, we won't know for sure until they send a ground team but the initial estimates have it, uh, on the order of approximately 2,000 years.

Elosha: That's around the time the 13 tribes first left Kobol.

So, in any case, it's THIRTEEN tribes, not twelve tribes, 2,000 years BCH.

--[[User:MHall|MHall]] 16:33, 21 February 2007 (CST)

:We shouldn't place too much importance in one line by one character. The date was somewhat retconned later. Previously we believed that everyone left Kobol around the same time, but for different destinations. Then they placed dates reaching further back. I don't see the need to create complicated theories because of that. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:52, 21 February 2007 (CST)
::[[BW:OC|*coughaskbradleythompsoncough*]] --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:17, 22 February 2007 (CST)

Serenity, what you're saying is that it's more likely that you are correct than that Elosha is correct. I have my money on Elosha, no offense. And the dates were "retconned?!" Cha, as if. You simply don't understand the truth.
--[[User:MHall|MHall]] 08:25, 27 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:Timeline (RDM)/Archive5

2007-02-21T22:33:49Z

MHall: /* Ancient history */

Talk:Timeline (RDM)/Archive5

2007-02-21T22:33:21Z

MHall: Ancient history

Talk:Ionian Nebula/Archive 1

2007-02-21T16:54:54Z

MHall: New page: == The Great Exodus? Not. == It is not true that "Lieutenant Felix Gaeta discovers that a nova occurred in the Ionian system which was seen around the same time as the Great Exodus." The ...

== The Great Exodus? Not. ==

It is not true that "Lieutenant Felix Gaeta discovers that a nova occurred in the Ionian system which was seen around the same time as the Great Exodus." The Great Exodus was about 2,000 years ago, "around the time the 13 tribes first left Kobol." The Ionian nova was "seen 4,000 years ago, around about when the Temple might have been built," "which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe."

It's kind of besides the point, because you've obviously made a 2,000 year blunder, but I think this is how the scriptures make sense:

The 13th tribe left Kobol on a journey to Earth 4,000 years ago. (They, or somebody, soon resettles Kobol.)

The 13 tribes left Kobol for the Colonies 2,000 years ago.

The 13th tribe is all 12 tribes combined. And it is the rag-tag fleet presently; what happened 4,000 years ago is happening again now.

This is a bit speculative, and so should not go onto any pages, but I'm just trying to show you how it could make sense what they say on the show: the 13th tribe left Kobol 4,000 years ago (on a journey to Earth), and also the 13 tribes left Kobol 2,000 years ago (for the 12 Colonies.)

--[[User:MHall|MHall]] 10:54, 21 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:Socinus/Archive 1

2005-05-23T12:47:27Z

MHall: spoiled

What is the stance here on spoilers? I find it very annoying read a character page and get spoiled by a major event of season two, before season two has started. Those spoilers should live only in the pages for the episodes, IMO.

-[[User:MHall|MHall]]

Talk:God (RDM)/Archive 1

2005-05-22T10:32:57Z

MHall: from the author

It always seemed to me that "God" is the Cylon central computer (or equivalent). My hypothesis is that the "re-imagined" Count Iblis will be the God.[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:21, 21 May 2005 (EDT)

== from the author ==

Do you like this style of this God page that I wrote? I personally think the quotes are too numerous. I'll probably delete some quotes, but it's hard to know which might prove important. For example, Adama's speaking of God may be significant. I would love to have such quotes about other topics on other Wiki pages, as it's easier to do unbiased research this way.

Regarding your theory of the Cylon God being Iblis, although there probably is a head Cylon like that, their religion seems more abstract: "We are all God, all of us. I see the love that binds all living things together."

Should we include deleted scenes on Wiki pages? There is an important bit of dialog in KLG 1 about the legend of a jealous god who tried to elevate himself above the rest. Internal Six replies something like, "Blasphemy! There has only ever been one God."

I need help for the original series section of this God page. I haven't watched the original series since the late 70's! Feel free to do whatever you want with that section.

-[[User:MHall|MHall]]

God (RDM)

2005-05-21T23:54:07Z

MHall: God page, super unbiased

==In the Reimagined Series==

[[Image:Bscap059.jpg|thumb|"I am an instrument of God" --[[Baltar, Gaius|Baltar]] in [[The Hand of God]] Credit: SkyOne]]

In [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|the reimagined series]] of [[Battlestar Galactica]], [[Conoy, Leoben|Leoben]] and [[Mini-Series]]/internal [[Six]] espouse monotheistic views. Leoben's "we are all God" philosophy is similar to [[Wikipedia:Gnosticism|Gnosticism]]. Although the [[Colonials]] worship the [[Lords of Kobol]], even Colonials occasionally say singular "God," though it's often just as exclamations.

To avoid bias, quotes will do most of the talking here.

===Monotheistic References===

* "Oh, my God," "Thank God," or similar exclamations -- [[Adama, William|Commander Adama]] in the [[Mini-Series]], mother of baby in the [[Mini-Series]], [[Baltar, Gaius|Baltar]] in the [[Mini-Series]], the CAG in the [[Mini-Series]], Man on comlink to [[Roslin, Laura|Laura Roslin]] in the [[Mini-Series]], [[Valerii, Sharon|Sharon]] in [[Water]]

* "That, and God wanted me to help you." -- [[Six]], [[Mini-Series]]

* "We decided to play god - create life. When that life turned against us we comforted ourselves in the knowledge that it really wasn't our fault, not really. You cannot play god then wash your hands of the things that you've created." -- [[Adama, William|Commander Adama]], [[Mini-Series]]

* "Maybe the Cylons are God's retribution for our many sins. What if God decided he made a mistake and he decided to give souls to another creature, like the Cylons?" -- [[Conoy, Leoben|Leoben]], [[Mini-Series]]

* "God didn't create the Cylons. Man did. And I'm pretty sure we didn't include a soul in the programming." -- [[Adama, William|Commander Adama]], [[Mini-Series]]

* "And what I want most of all is for you to love me... Don't you understand? God is love." - internal [[Six]], [[Mini-Series]]

* "God has a plan for you, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone. Gaius - are you even listening to me?" -- internal [[Six]], [[33]]

* "Procreation is one of God's commandments." -- internal [[Six]], [[33]]

* "God is watching out for you, Gaius." -- internal [[Six]], [[33]]

* "A connection, maybe, but not God. There is no God, or gods, singular or plural. There are no large, invisible men (or women, for that matter) in the sky, taking a personal interest in the fortunes of Gaius Baltar." -- [[Baltar, Gaius|Baltar]], [[33]]

* "Be careful. That which God gives He can also take away." -- internal [[Six]], [[33]]

* "It's God's punishment for your lack of faith." -- internal [[Six]], [[33]]

* "God's got nothing to do with this." -- [[Baltar, Gaius|Baltar]], [[33]]

* "It's God's choice. He wants you to repent." -- internal [[Six]], [[33]]

* "Pilots call me "Starbuck", you may refer to me as 'God'." -- [[Thrace, Kara|Starbuck]], [[Act of Contrition]]

* "God answers everyone's prayers." -- [[Conoy, Leoben|Leoben]], [[Flesh and Bone]]

* "God, you stink. Can we get some air in here? Between you and the humidity..." -- [[Conoy, Leoben|Leoben]] to [[Thrace, Kara|Starbuck]], [[Flesh and Bone]]

* "I was right. See, our faiths are similar but I look to one God, not to many." -- [[Conoy, Leoben|Leoben]], [[Flesh and Bone]]

* "To know the face of God is to know madness. I see the universe. I see the patterns. I see the foreshadowing that precedes every moment of every day. It's all there, I see it and you don't." -- [[Conoy, Leoben|Leoben]], [[Flesh and Bone]]

* "I am more than you could ever imagine. I am God." -- [[Conoy, Leoben|Leoben]], [[Flesh and Bone]]

* "I'm sorry, you're God? Wow... nice to meet ya. That's good, that's good. We'll give you a couple of minutes for that." -- [[Thrace, Kara|Starbuck]], [[Flesh and Bone]]

* "It's funny, isn't it? We're all God, Starbuck, all of us. I see the love that binds all living things together. ... I know that God loved you more than all other living creatures and you repaid his divine love with sin, with hate, corruption, evil. So then he decided to create the Cylons." -- [[Conoy, Leoben|Leoben]], [[Flesh and Bone]]

* "It's your chance to find out if you're really God or just a bunch of circuits with a bad haircut. ... Somebody's programmed you with a fairy tale of God and streams and life ever after but, somewhere in that hard drive that you call a brain is a beeping message: 'Error, error, does not compute. I don't have a soul, I have software. If I die, I'm gone.'" -- [[Thrace, Kara|Starbuck]], [[Flesh and Bone]]

* "And this time, your role...you have to deliver my soul unto God. Do it for me. It's your destiny, and mine." -- [[Conoy, Leoben|Leoben]], [[Flesh and Bone]]

* "He's not afraid to die. He's just afraid that his soul won't make it to God." -- [[Thrace, Kara|Starbuck]], [[Flesh and Bone]]

* "Oh good, I suppose God doesn't want me to destroy the base, because he's the Cylon god, right?", [[Baltar, Gaius|Baltar]], [[The Hand of God]]

* "God doesn't take sides. He only wants your love. Open your heart to him and he'll show you the way." -- internal [[Six]], [[The Hand of God]]

* "He didn't speak to me. God didn't speak to me. So I was totally lying. I just picked that spot at random." -- [[Baltar, Gaius|Baltar]], [[The Hand of God]]

* "He doesn't always speak in words, Gaius." -- internal [[Six]], [[The Hand of God]]

* "Are you telling me that God guided my finger to that target for some... arcane scriptural purpose?" -- [[Baltar, Gaius|Baltar]], [[The Hand of God]]

* "You are part of God's plan, Gaius." -- internal [[Six]], [[The Hand of God]]

* "So God wanted me to destroy the Cylon base." -- [[Baltar, Gaius|Baltar]], [[The Hand of God]]

* "You did well. You gave yourself over to Him." -- internal [[Six]], [[The Hand of God]]

* "Yes, suppose I did. Yes, there's-- there's really no other logical explanation for it. I was - [Six: Am.] - I am an instrument of God." -- [[Baltar, Gaius|Baltar]], [[The Hand of God]]

(There are more references; feel free to fill in the notable ones.)

===Judeo-Christian References===
[[Image:Baltar in crucifixion pose in ep13.jpg|thumb|Baltar in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]] Credit: SkyOne]]

The [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|reimagined series]] of [[Battlestar Galactica]] contains few references to [[Wikipedia:Judeo-Christian|Judeo-Christian]] concepts such as [[Wikipedia:Jesus|Jesus]] and [[Wikipedia:Satan|Satan]].

* "Jesus." -- Colonel Tigh, [[Mini-Series]]

* "I was... [Six: Am.] I am..." -- [[Baltar, Gaius|Baltar]], [[The Hand of God]] (full quote in previous section)

* "Come on, Jim. [[Gray, Wallace|Wallace Gray]] is no 'prince of darkness.'" -- Playa, [[Colonial Day]]

The "I am" statement in [[The Hand of God]] is noteworthy, because of the self-description God gives to Moses in Exodus, [[Wikipedia:I am that I am|"I am that I am"]], and also Jesus has a series of "I am" statements in the Bible. The Bible contains over 300 "I am" statements.

As one of [[The mystery of 33|mysteries of 33]], [[33]] is not only the title of an episode but also the commonly reported age for Jesus Christ when he was crucified, so this is another possible reference to Christ.

Finally, "Christ" itself is from the Greek "Χριστός," or "Christos," which means "messiah" in Greek. In the reimagined series, the [[Pythia|Pythian Prophecies]] tell of a messiah figure who will lead them to Earth.

==In the Original Series==

In the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|original series]] of [[Battlestar Galactica]], [[Lucifer]] was a name of an [[IL-series]] [[Cylon]] in [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|the original series]] of [[Battlestar Galactica]]. ''Lucifer'' is also a name for [[Wikipedia:Satan|Satan]].

[[Iblis|Count Iblis]] is a [[Wikipedia:Satan|Satan]]-like figure, and [[Wikipedia:Iblis|Iblis]] is the Satan of Islam.

Mormanism was reportedly an inspiration for some of the original series.

Talk:Aerilon/Archive 1

2005-05-20T22:01:43Z

MHall: more info and questions

Are you sure of the spelling? Not Aerilon?

How do you know Troy is near Aerelon? Boomer having an Aerelon accent does not prove this, especially since we don't know where she was age 0-4.

See my the thread I started on Ragnar Anchorage for more information on Aerelon:
http://s9.invisionfree.com/Ragnar_Anchorage/index.php?showtopic=658

-[[User:MHall|MHall]]

Quotes:05 11

2005-05-11T11:41:07Z

MHall:

"Sooner or later, the day comes when you can't hide from the things that you've done anymore." --[[Adama, William|Commander Adama]] in the [[Mini-Series]]

Viper (TRS)

2005-05-11T10:20:53Z

MHall: /* Instruments */ added attitude indicator

==[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Viper]]==

=== Overview ===

[[Image:Bsg-viper-1.jpg|thumb|Viper Mk II (credit: Gabriel C. Koerner)]]

The Viper is the Colonial Defence Force's primary space superiority fighter / attack craft. Capable of atmospheric flight, the Viper is a single-seat craft mounting two kinetic energy weapons ([[KEW]]s), as well as having hardpoints beneath the wings for mounting missiles, munitions pods and other ordnance ([[The Hand of God]]).

The Viper was originally introduced into Colonial service shortly before the outbreak of the [[Cylon War]]. However, it was the Mark II variant, designed specifically for use with the new Colonial [[Battlestar]]s that is best remembered.

The Mark II served with distinction throughout the Cylon War, proving a capable fighting vehicle that won renown across the 12 colonies and is regarded as one of the reasons the Colonials did not suffer defeat at the hands of the Cylons.

The Mark II remained in service after the end of the war, but was subsequently superceded by newer models. At the time of the renewed Cylon attack on the 12 Colonies, the Mark VII was the front-line variant of the Viper design, retaining the Mark II general layout but using fully networked systems providing superior battle management and fight information for the pilot.

Ironically, it was the incorporation of the new integrated systems that prevented the majority of Mark VIIs from being effective during the Cylon attack: as with the majority of Colonial Fleet, the Mark VII suffered fatal computer glitches on contact with Cylon forces. Thanks to Six's relationship with Baltar, the navigational software in standard use onboard the majority of Colonial Fleet vessels had backdoors that allowed the Cylons to infiltrate a vessel's network by wireless signals and disable its power systems. While the problem could be overcome by removing the navigational upgrade comprimised by the Cylons, this information was not discovered in time to be of major benefit to the surprised and hard-pressed Colonial forces. Galactica herself never had the upgrade installed, on the order of Commander Adama ([[Mini-Series]]). Since Galactica's systems are not networked, it is unclear as to what affect if any the comprimised navigational system would have had on her.

==== Atmospheric Operations ====
The Viper is designed for atmospheric as well as space-based operations. However, Vipers consume more fuel during atmospheric operations than in the vacuum of space: once in an atmosphere, the engines must run continuously to retain airflow over the wing lifting surfaces. Depending on the composition of the atmosphere itself, this can place severe strain on the Viper's engines ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]).

Due to their wing configuration, Vipers may also suffer from poor handling at low speeds within an atmosphere.

==== Life Support ====
Viper cockpits are pressurised and heated, but they are flown with the pilot wearing a flight suit that is capable of providing full life support should ejection be required ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]). The life support systems are built-in to the back of the pilot's seat itself, together with the flight harness. Following an ejection, the back of the seat separates automatically, effectively becoming a backpack for the pilot ([[Act of Contrition]]).

Should ejection take place within an atmosphere, the life support backpack / seat back also incorporates a parachute.

=== Technical Specifications ===

[[Image:Bsg-viper7-1.jpg|thumb|Viper MkVII (credit: Sci-Fi Channel)]]

==== Dimensions ====
Mark II
*Length: (approx) 25ft
*Wingspan: (approx) 12ft

Mark VII
*Length: (approx) 28ft
*Wingspan: (approx) 14ft

==== Propulsion ====
*Both: 3x sublight engines mounted aft; 2x reverse thrust motors; [[RCS]] points
*Mark VII: Angular exhaust nozzle design suggest possible thrust-vectoring.

==== Armaments ====
*Mark II: 2x forward-firing kenetic energy weapons ([[KEW]]) mounted in the wing roots
*Mark VII: 3x forward-firing kenetic energy weapons (KEW); 2 mounted towards the outboard sections of the wings; 1 mounted in the vertical stabiliser
*Both: Weapon hardpoints for mounting missiles / munitions pods, etc. under the wings

==== Instruments ====
*Mark II: [[Radio Magnetic Indicator]]
*Mark II: [[Torque Percent Gauge]]
*Mark II: [[Attitude Indicator]]
*Mark II: [[Altimeter]]

==== Crew ====
*Pilot

==== Notes ====

Since the Galactica only had 20 Viper Mark II's aboard, they needed as many fighters as possible, thus the remaining Mark VII's were refitted and stripped of their advanced computer systems. However, since this is not how the Mark VII was designed, it makes the craft increasingly difficult to handle and can only be flown by the most experienced pilots ([[Apollo]]).

=== Layout ===

The Viper is a long, sleek vehicle that can be spilt into two parts, fore and aft.

*Fore section: comprises the nose back to the cockpit. This contains the forward RCS systems for manoeuvring the craft; the forward landing gear; the main avionics and sensor packages, plus the single-seat cockpit itself
*Stern section: comprises the main engines, fuel tanks, wings and vertial stabiliser. The wings themselves contain the kinetic energy weapons ("guns") and their munitions storage and feeds. Harpoints beneath the wings allow missiles, munitions pods and other items to be rack-mounted ([[The Hand of God]]). The wings roots contain the main landing gear. This section of a Viper also contains a number of RCS manoeuvring packs.

The stern section of a Viper is distinctive because of the offset "intakes" mounted just behind the cockpit. The port / starboard "intake" nacelles incorporate small but powerful reverse thrust engines that can quickly counter a Viper's forward momentum in an emergency ([[The Hand of God]]).

==[[TOS Battlestar Galactica|Original Series Viper]]==
[[Image:bsg-viper-tos.jpg|thumb|Starhound Viper (credit: Universal / ABC)]]

The Colonial Starhound Viper was the primary space superiority fighter / attack craft deployed by the Colonials. Capable of atmospheric flight, it was a single-seat craft mounting two laser-torpedo guns as standard, as well as having hardpoints for mounting missiles.

The Viper was originally introduced into Colonial service during the 1,000 yahren war with the Cylons, and was a far superior craft to the [[Cylon Raider#Original Series Raider|Cylon Raider]].

Propulsion was said to be provided by a hybrid tylium / fusion reactor powering three ion engines with a "turbo-boost" facility for very rapid acceleration. For atmospheric flight, the engines are additionally supplied with atmospheric gases as combustibles to conserve on-board fuel supplies. The viper cockpit is fully pressurised, and in the event of catastrophic system damage, the entire module can detach and eject away from the damaged Viper.

==== Dimensions ====
*Length: (approx) 28.5ft
*Wingspan: (approx) 12.5ft

==== Propulsion ====
*3x ion engines mounted aft

==== Aramaments ====
*2 x forward-firing laser-torpedo guns
*4 x two-hundred kiloton Solonite missiles
*2 x thirty megaton Solonite bombs

====Crew====
* Pilot

===Layout===
[[Image:tos-viper-cut.jpg|thumb|Starhound Viper Cutaway (credit: Mike McAdams)]]
The Viper is a long, sleek vehicle that can be spilt into two parts, fore and aft.

* Fore section: comprises the nose back to the cockpit. This contains the targeting dish and sensor array, the forward landing gear; the main avionics and sensor packages, plus the cockpit module
* Stern section: comprises the main engines, reactor systems, turbo-boost injection systems, fuel tanks, wings and vertial stabiliser. The wings themselves contain the laser-torpedo guns and their power packs. Harpoints beneath the wings allow missiles, munitions pods and other items to be rack-mounted.

--[[User:Ernestborg9|Colonial Archivist]] 20:07, 1 Feb 2005 (EST)

==Video Game Variants==
Within the [[Video Game]], three variants of Viper are available: the Mark I, which is designed to be an earlier version of the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|original series]] Viper; the Mark II, which is largely based on the original series Viper, and the Mark III, which is described as "superior to the Mark II in every respect".

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Craft]]
[[Category:Colonial Craft (TOS)]]
[[Category:Colonial Military]]
[[Category:Colonial Military (TOS)]]
[[Category:RDM]]
[[Category:TOS]]
[[Category:Video Game Ships]]

Armistice Station

2005-05-10T01:16:00Z

MHall: /* Description */ fixed ambiguous link to Boxey

{|
|-
|[[Image:Armistice Station, Ship Docking With.jpg|thumb|Ship docking with Armistice Station]] || [[Image:Armistice Station.jpg|thumb|Armistice Station Credit: Sci-Fi]]
|}

==Introduction==
: "The Cylons were created by Man. They were created to make life easier on the twelve colonies. And then the day came when the Cylons decided to kill their masters. After a long and bloody struggle, an armistice was declared. The Cylons left for another world to call their own. A remote space station was built where Cylon and human could meet and maintain diplomatic relations. Every year the Colonials send an officer. The Cylons send no one. No one has seen or heard from the Cylons in over forty years."

With these words so begins the [[Mini-Series]].

==Description==
[[Image:Photos seen on Armistice Station.jpg|thumb|Photos of Boxey and perhaps his mother Credit: Sci-Fi]]
Armistice Station was this remote space station, and was attended by an [[Armistice Officer]], who happened to be [[Boxey (2003)|Boxey]]'s father.

A few items of interest are visible in ''Armistice Station'':
* A photograph: [[Boxey (2003)|Boxey]]
* A photograph: presumably the [[Armistice Officer]]'s wife, possibly Boxey's mother
* A document: [[Cylon Centurian Model 0005]]
* A document: [[Cimtar Peace Accord]]

==Destruction==
Armistice Station was dwarfed in size by the Cylon basestar that paid it a visit. In a mysterious choice for the opening salvo of the [[Cylon Attack|Cylon attack]], the basestar attacked and presumably destroyed Armistice Station, while on board a [[humano-Cylon]] made out with the [[Armistice Officer]] as two [[Cylon Warrior|updated Cylon "chrome toasters"]] watched.
The [[Mini-Series#Armistice Station|Armistice Station section]] of the [[Mini-Series]] page discusses this peculiar circumstance.

{|
|-
| [[Image:Armistice Station Attacked By Basestar.jpg|thumb|Cylon Basestar attacking Armistice Station Credit: Sci-Fi]] || [[Image:Armistice Station Critically Damaged.jpg|thumb|Destruction of Armistice Station Credit: Sci-Fi]]
|}

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Military]]
[[Category:RDM]]

The mystery of 33

2005-05-10T00:51:20Z

MHall: Fixed broken link, added Smashing Pumpkins, minor changes

Ron Moore has explained, [[33#Official Statements|"Why 33 minutes?"]] Here are the facts about 33:

== 33 in Battlestar Galactica ==
* [[33]] is the name of the first episode
* 33 is the number of minutes between Cylon attacks in the episode [[33]]
* 33 is the largest printed number on the [[Radio Magnetic Indicator]]

== 33 Elsewhere ==
* 33 is the number of [[The Homeric Hymns|Homeric Hymns]]
* 33 is the age commonly given for [[Christ|Jesus Christ]] when he was crucified
* 33 is the number on the back of bottles of Rolling Rock beer
* 33 is the number of the highest degree of Masonry
* Thirty-Three is the title of a song by Smashing Pumpkins ([http://www.lyricsfreak.com/s/smashing-pumpkins/126592.html lyrics])

33

2005-05-10T00:47:51Z

MHall: /* Nit-picks */ I just noticed that my page The mystery of 33 was already covered here, so I removed the redundant text here and pointed to my page. I added the Smashing Pumpkins' 33 there.

[[Image:bsg-1-01.jpg|thumb|"33" (credit: Sci-Fi Channel)]]

== Overview ==

: Continuing from the events of the [[mini-series]], the [[Battlestar]] [[Galactica]] and the fleet must avoid their [[Cylon]] pursuers, which happen upon them every 33 minutes after each successful [[FTL]] jump. 

: Special Note: This episode marks the premiere of the series.

== Summary ==

* The crew of the [[Battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]'' have been on continuous alert for some 130.35 hours, during which time the fleet has had to make an [[FTL]] jump every 33 minutes to escape their [[Cylon]] pursuers.
* Everyone in the fleet is beginning to feel the strain – particularly [[Baltar, Gaius|Gaius Baltar]], who is also distracted by [[Number Six|Six’s]] repeated conversations about [[Cylon God|God]] having a plan for him, and also her wanting to have his children.
* Vessels in the fleet are also beginning to feel the strain: FTL jump engines and their controlling computers are starting to breakdown or malfunction, requiring the Galactica to linger longer and longer in the Cylon line of fire while the rest of the fleet makes their jumps.
* Following jump number 237, [[Roslin, Laura|President Roslin]] receives word from a Dr. [[Amorak]] aboard the ''[[Olympic Carrier]]'' that he has information concerning how the Cylons overcame Colonial defences.
* Overhearing the conversation, Baltar is worried: he knew Amorak at the [[Defence Ministry]]. As Six points out, Amorak might have information on Baltar.
* There is insufficient time before the next jump to bring Amorak aboard ''[[Colonial One]]'', but Roslin wants to see him directly after the jump has been completed.
* Elsewhere, [[Valerii, Sharon#"Boomer" Valerii|Boomer Valerii]] is having problems accepting her new [[ECO]], [[Crashdown]], and is feeling guilty about leaving [[Agathon, Karl C.|“Helo” Agathon]] on [[Caprica]].
* When the next jump is made, the ''Olympic Carrier'', complete with Dr. Amorak and 1344 other souls, vanishes. Six tries to convince Baltar that it is because God is watching over him.
* Thirty-three minutes later, the fleet is ready to jump, but the Cylons don’t show up. Adama orders a stand-down from the immediate alert, but the fleet is to maintain a readiness to jump, in case the Cylons do show up.
* When Baltar continues to refuse the concept of God, the ''Olympic Carrier'' reappears; [[Adama, William|Adama]] orders the fleet to full alert, fearing the worst. He orders the jump clocks reset in anticipation of the Cylons arriving.
*A [[CAP]] lead by [[Adama, Lee|Lee Adama]] intercepts the liner. Adama orders all communications with the ''Carrier'' jammed and is ordered (through signal lamps) to remain at it's current position. When the ''Carrier'' fails to heed orders not to approach the fleet, tensions rise, and a radiological alarm reveals there are now nuclear weapons on the liner
*As the crisis deepens, the Cylons show up. Adama wants to destroy the liner, but Roslin hesitates to give the order, no one can be sure whether or not there aren’t still 1,345 people aboard the Carrier. Baltar is terrified she won't give the order.
*Six uses the hesitation to push Baltar into “repenting” before God. As soon as he does, Roslin gives the order to destroy the liner. Lee Adama and [[Thrace, Kara|Starbuck]] (reluctantly) open fire, destroying the ship.
*24 hours later, everyone is living with the consequences of their actions. Only [[Keikeya, Billy|Billy]] has a small nugget of good news: at some point in the proceedings, a couple gave birth to a baby.

===On Caprica===
* [[Agathon, Karl C.|Helo]] is on the run in woodland, and has C4-type ordinance he uses to blow up pursuing [[Cylon Warrior|Cylon warriors]]
* However, his 6 days on the run comes to an end when he is captured by the Cylons, after being distracted by the appearance of [[Number Six|Six]], wearing a white rain coat
*He is “rescued” by [[Valerii, Sharon#Caprica Valerii|Valerii]], who shoots Six and then leads Helo away into the woods

--[[User:Ernestborg9|Colonial Archivist]] 06:48, 24 Jan 2005 (EST)

== Questions ==



* Billy reports that the number of survivors is down by 300 - some lost through death from injuries, etc., some "lost" through initial inaccurate counts, and the rest of whom have "disappeared". How can people simply "disappear" in the fleet?
* Does Doctor Amorak truly have something on Baltar's involvement in the holocaust?
* Is Six actually in contact with other Cylons, and thus was involved in the disappearance / reappearance of the ''Olympic Carrier''?

==Blooper Moments==
* During the opening titles, the ''Galactica'' is shown to be making a jump with her flight pods extended - not only that, the shot is from the [[Mini-Series]].
* Billy may be a good PA but he’s crap at maths. “33” starts with 50,298 survivors. He informs Roslin this is in error by 300 = 49,998 survivors. When the Olympic Carrier is destroyed (1345 people), he reduces the total to 47,972 – that’s a reduction of 2026, or 681 people MORE than listed on the ''Carrier''!
* Whatever Roslin taught at school, it wasn’t mathematics – she fails to pick up on Billy’s error.

== Analysis ==

Overall, a good opening episode that cleverly adds to a number of arcs from the mini: is Boomer a Cylon? What is the Six who is interacting with Baltar? Can the Colonials truly escape the shadow of the Cylons?

The opening sequence of shots ending with the Valerii on the Ragnar Anchorage is interesting: is this a hint to the real identity of Boomer on Galactica? Also, is the good-natured teasing between Starbuck and Boomer during the CAP an indication that others have noticed Boomer seems to be handling the lack of sleep a lot better than others. Could this lead to some kind of rumour-mill starting-up about her?

As to Baltar's Six: three possibilities seem to suggest themselves:

*She is a working of his own psyche; a reaction to his betrayal of his people to the Cylons. Certainly, his increasing psychosis in the episode would seem to point to this; but then, he has - like the rest - been five plus days without sleep, and some degree of paranoia is bound to result.
*She is, as she suggested in the mini, an implant in his head and possibly in communication with the Cylons. However, if this is the case, surely the Cylon hunt for the fleet would continue despite the destruction of the Olympic Carrier - as the Cylons would be tracing the fleet through Baltar. Given the humans are to all intents and purposes "on the ropes", it seems odd that they would break off the attack when they have such a clear advantage.
*She could she actually be a complete download of "Six's" personality, captured at the point of destruction of Baltar's home, and now contained in his head, possibily occupying his subconscious, out of contact with her own kind, but able to fully interact with his thoughts and feelings – even manipulate his thoughts and feelings?

Hopefully, these issues will be addressed in time. Meanwhile, the episode builds on some of the relationships established in the mini: Apollo and Starbuck clearly have a past, one that reaches beyond command hierarchies, exhaustion and tempers. The hanger deck confrontation is a valuable byplay not so much for what it says, but for the way in which it is communicated - a large element of non-verbal communication passing between Thrace and Lee Adama prior to her taking the stims.

Similarly, Roslin's mistrust of Adama, as expressed at the end of the mini following his admission that "earth" was a deception on his part, has begun to grow into an edgy respect: she knows full-well that without his leadership, the fleet would not have survived 5 days of repeated FTL jumps - and she is prepared to admit it.

Then there is Adama's relationship with his son. From the scene where they discuss responsibility, it is evident that there is a gulf between them still - one that may well be held open in part by their relative positions aboard the Galactica: Adama is Lee's father and the Officer Commanding the Galactica. While both again appear to want to bridge the gap – the difference in rank still prevents them openly discussing things: hence Lee's act of rebuffing his father's attempt to console him following the shooting of the Olympic Carrier.

Overall the three storylines evident in the episode – escaping the Cylons, Baltar and Six and Helo on Caprica - are cleverly interwoven, with the main storyline; the Baltar / Six relationship in particular intersecting smoothly through the crisis involving the Olympic Carrier, while the Helo subplot is given enough exposure to engage us and deflect attention from the "A" story sufficiently to heighten the drama, without actually interrupting the overall story flow.

Indeed, such is the subtlety of the Helo sub-plot that the questions it raises don't really reveal themselves until a second viewing, and you realise they are related to the central Cylon theme: why does Six ask him if he is alive? He clearly is, and the question is not a reference to either his leg wound or his radiation-induced sickness. Nor is it simply a throwback to her "sister's" first words to the Colonial officer at Armistice Station. It is something that appears to go to the very centre of Cylon reasoning.

Similarly, while it could be over-sensitivity given the amount of time the Valerii on Caprica was on-screen, but one couldn't help but feel she was perhaps a little too human; too familiar with Helo? It seems odd that she is introduced to Helo through the "killing" of the Six construct. Why resort to the "murder" of one of her own? Was this simply to establish her credibility in the eyes of Helo? Could she not have found another way to make contact with Helo? Contrasted with the comments regarding Boomer's heritage back at Galactica, are the writers attempting to imply something? Could it bee that BOTH the Valerii characters are Cylons that believe themselves to be human?

Time will tell - but it will be interesting to see how the Helo/Valerii/Caprica arc is followed-up.

But, in discussing the role of Cylon agents, there is a potentially interesting throwaway comment in this episode that might be an indication that something is amiss in the fleet: in discussing the number of survivors, Roslin asks why the total has dropped by 300. Billy responds that some over-counts were made (understandable), that there have been deaths from wounds (possibly people picked up from the 12 colonies), and some seem to have simply "disappeared" during the last Cylon attack (witnessed prior to jump 237).

"Disappeared"? How? No ships were destroyed during the attack / jump, so how do people just "disappear"? Again, is this simply an error in the script, or are the writers trying to point at something deeper?

All that said, the episode isn't without some flaws.

===Nit-picks===

*Why is Boomer's Raptor launched alongside Apollo's Vipers for what everyone is expecting to be an interdiction exercise against Cylon Raiders? It is a complete departure from previous actions: in the mini, CAG ordered Boomer to get her Raptor out of the way as his squadron went into to face the Cylon Raiders; at Ragnar, the Raptors weren't deployed against incoming Raiders, nor where they in evidence prior to jump 237 at the start of this episode. It is unclear whether Raptors are armed, or whether they would be effectively in an electronic warfare capability against Raiders, but the sudden presence of a Raptor in a Viper interdiction flight smacks of being a somewhat clumsy means of meeting the needs of the plot: obviously, the writers wanted Boomer there to handle the communications with Olympic Carrier & so heighten the perceived tension.

*The 9/11 scene is, sadly, something of a misplaced element. Yes, 9/11 is a horror that stunned the world, and will always rightfully have a place in the memories of all Americans, but the use of a scene that so closely mirrors the aftermath of the site around the World Trade Centre to try and convey the sense of loss the Colonials are feeling is somewhat heavy-handed. More should have been done to impart this to the audience back in the mini (where Cylon strikes on the Colonial worlds were restricted to a few scenes of Caprica, and even then the outright and inevitable destruction was barely shown).

*Similarly, the failure to openly resolve the issue of whether or not 1345 people were aboard the Olympic Carrier weakens the story. Indeed, Apollo's flyby of the ship is suggestive that she indeed wasn't carrying anyone any more - thus removing our feelings of horror one step further from the drama being played out on screen. In opting to remain ambiguous about the presence of humans aboard the ship, the writers very much weaken the entire “should we / shouldn’t we” argument as to whether the Colonials can fire on and destroy the ship. Should they have shown people clinging to the windows of the Carrier, staring back at Apollo in helplessness as he made his final fly-by? Perhaps; perhaps not - but out emotions would have been better engaged if we had at least seen some evidence that lives were going to be destroyed along with the Olympic Carrier.

*A final nit-pick comes with the reminder of Tigh's alcoholism. The by-play here didn't entirely fit, and came across as a clumsy reminder that the writers hadn't forgotten about Tigh's condition and would possibly be returning to it in the future. Better to have kept the focus on Adama's comments regarding driving and managing the crew.

However, all this said, "33" serves as an excellent opening episode: the pacing is smooth, the storylines cleverly interwoven and combined without stepping on one another, and there are no hurried or harried resolutions. Arcs established in the mini are extended and new interactions given birth.

--[[User:Ernestborg9|Colonial Archivist]] 11:59, 6 Jan 2005 (EST)

[[The mystery of 33]] remains, despite [[RDM]]s comments below that the number "33" was chosen at random. Random or not, 33 is quite a significant number and adds complexity to this episode, intentionally or not.

== Notes ==

* Continuous jumping badly affects the FTL drives and management systems aboard Colonial vessels
* The Cylons have the same ability to undertake highly-accurate FTL jumps as the Colonials: 238 times they’ve managed to jump to the Colonial fleet and arrive with precise momentum and trajectory to be able to close the distance and launch an attack
* There are 5,251 people in the fleet from Sagittaron

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

''Discussion on Stims between Lee & Kara''

'''Lee:''' "Hey, um, did you see the note from the XO?" 
'''Kara:''' "I saw it. No way." 
'''Lee:''' "Kara, everyone else--" 
'''Kara:''' "I don't fly with stims. They fudge with your reflexes, reaction time." 
'''Lee:''' "C'mon Kara, give me a break. Just--" 
'''Kara:''' "Why are we arguing about this?" 
'''Lee:''' "I have no idea." 
'''Kara:''' "Neither do I. You're the [[CAG]], act like one." 
'''Lee:''' "What does that mean?" 
'''Kara:''' "It means that you're still acting like everyone's best friend. We're not friends. You're the CAG. (beat) 'Be careful out there?' Our job isn't to be careful, it's to shoot fraking [[Cylons]] out of the sky. 'Good Hunting' is what you say. And one of your idiot pilots is acting like a child and refusing to take her pills. So she either says 'Yes, sir' and obeys a direct order, or you smack her in the mouth and drag her sorry ass to sickbay and you make her take those pills." 
(beat; Lee bursts out with a chortle) 
'''Lee:''' "Well, I'm glad I'm not working for you." 
'''Kara:''' "Damn right you're glad." 
'''Lee:''' "So do I have to smack you in the mouth, Lieutenant?" 
'''Kara:''' "No sir, I'll take my pills." 

== Official Statements ==




=== {{from_RDM_blog}}: Why 33 minutes? ===

:The truth is, there's no real answer. It's just a random number that felt right when I came up with the idea that our people were under continuous, relentless attack since the end of the pilot. I wanted it to be a short interval, just long enough for them to grab a bite to eat, jump in the shower and maybe try to catch a catnap before dragging themselves back to their duty stations and begin the whole tedious, terrifying ordeal all over again.

:A deeper truth is, I was never interested in coming up with an explanation for Why? Never. I mean, I suppose I could've come up with a sufficiently important-sounding bit of technobabble that would've made sense (you see, the [[Cylon]] double-talk sensors tracking the [[Olympic Carrier]]'s nonsense drive signature needed 15 minutes to relay the made-up data wave through the pretend continuum, then the Cylon navigational hyper silly system needed another 10 minutes to recalculate the flux capacitor, etc.) but what would that have really added to the drama? How does explaining that 33 minute interval help our understanding of [[Laura Roslin|Laura]]'s terrible moment of decision, or bring us to any greater knowledge of [[Dualla]]'s search for her missing family and friends, or yield insight into [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]]'s morally shattered psyche?

:It doesn't, of course. The answer, however artfully it may (or may not) have been crafted can only subtract from the experience we have in watching the episode. Not knowing the how's or why's of the Cylon attack puts us in the same seat as the characters we're watching. They're in the dark, and we're in the dark. The relentless attack is unfathomable in its origin and unstoppable in its execution. It's mortality coming at you on a loop. If you only had 33 minutes before the next time you could die, what would you do? And what about the time after that? And the time after that? At a certain point, you stop caring about why it's happening, all you know is that it is happening, and it's happening to you.

:So [[the mystery of 33]] will be permanent on this show. No explanation, not even the attempt. Let it just be a number that seemed like an eternity for five long days on the [[battlestar]] [[Galactica]].

=== {{from_RDM_blog}}: Note on [["Lest We Forget"]] ===

:"It's probably been asked before, but I'm curious as to whom is in the picture in the Viper Pilot's briefing room, facing away from the camera . . . the one the pilots, including [[Adama, William|Commander Adama]], touch when they enter and leave? This is touching, and is a wonderful human element to the story. So who is it?"

:There was a scene cut from [[33|"33"]] where we saw [[Roslin, Laura|Laura]] being given her copy of the photo along with a card that said it was taken on the roof of the capitol building on Aerilon during the attack. The photo was inspired by the famous shot of the fire-fighters raising the flag at Ground Zero that became iconic. I thought the Colonies would have their own version of this -- a snapshot taken in the moment that becomes a symbol of the day they can never forget and of all they had lost. The photo itself is of a soldier falling to his knees (possibly shot or simply overcome by emotion) as he stands on the rooftop over looking the devastation of his city, while the Colonial flag waves at the edge of frame. The inscription below the photo on Laura's plaque reads, [["Lest We Forget"]] in itself a reference to the inscription on the watch presented to John Wayne's character in "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon."

=== Comments from the Cast ===

*"Insomnia. Nobody has slept. Everyone's just coming to terms with the fact that they have lost everybody that they've loved or relate to." -- [[Jamie Bamber]], [http://scifi.com/battlestar/bts/video/mov/video_06_320.mov]

*"It was a hard episode, because, you just had to basically fall apart." -- [[Katee Sackhoff]], [http://scifi.com/battlestar/bts/video/mov/video_06_320.mov]

*"Episode 1 is extremely docu-style because the characters haven't actually slept for five days (sic) and they have been running from the Cylons for the 250th time. And its very stressful and they're about to lose the plot completely because of sleep deprivation." -- [[Michael Rymer]], [http://scifi.com/battlestar/bts/video/mov/video_06_320.mov]

== Statistics ==



=== Guest Stars ===


*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Alonso+Oyarzun Alonso Oyarzun] as [[Socinus]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Nicki+Clyne Nicki Clyne] as [[Cally]]



=== Writing & Direction ===

*Written by {{RDM|33}}
*Directed by {{Michael Rymer|33}}




=== Production Notes ===

*Series: 1 (2004 / 2005)
*Production Number: 1.01
*Airdate Order: 1 (of 13)

=== First Run Air Dates & Releases ===

*UK Airdate: 18 October 2004 (Sky One)
*US Airdate: 14 January 2005 (Sci-Fi Channel)
*DVD Release: 28 March 2005 (UK)

{{Episode List}}

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

User talk:MHall

2005-05-10T00:28:24Z

MHall:

I'm wondering: is it really necesary to have all this background information on Classical mythology? Granted, it's useful to have stuff about, for example, Apollo or Zeus; but that can be handled in their articles, and I don't see what the Iliad or Achilles has to do with BSG. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]]

== Welcome to the Wiki! ==

Hi,

Just wanted to officially welcome you onboard the Wiki and I hope you are having some fun here.

If you have any questions, feel free to strike a discussion with the Wikipedians here. We're a small, rag-tag group, but we're all here to help each other out!

Again, welcome!

- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]]

My raison d'etre ici is Greek mythology, in particular the 33 Homeric Hymns. However, I will attempt to stick to the raw facts directly related to Battlestar Galactica.

I am having a big problem with using the site under Firefox. Usually the only way I can see a changed page is to hit edit and preview. Otherwise, it shows the same old page, even if I hit reload. It looks like cookies are on and just about everything else is allowed too. Is it a cache problem?
[[User:MHall|MHall]]

Armistice Station

2005-05-09T11:26:07Z

MHall: /* Description */ fixing reference to moved Cimtar Peace Accord page

{|
|-
|[[Image:Armistice Station, Ship Docking With.jpg|thumb|Ship docking with Armistice Station]] || [[Image:Armistice Station.jpg|thumb|Armistice Station Credit: Sci-Fi]]
|}

==Introduction==
: "The Cylons were created by Man. They were created to make life easier on the twelve colonies. And then the day came when the Cylons decided to kill their masters. After a long and bloody struggle, an armistice was declared. The Cylons left for another world to call their own. A remote space station was built where Cylon and human could meet and maintain diplomatic relations. Every year the Colonials send an officer. The Cylons send no one. No one has seen or heard from the Cylons in over forty years."

With these words so begins the [[Mini-Series]].

==Description==
[[Image:Photos seen on Armistice Station.jpg|thumb|Photos of Boxey and perhaps his mother Credit: Sci-Fi]]
Armistice Station was this remote space station, and was attended by an [[Armistice Officer]], who happened to be [[Boxey (2003)|Boxey]]'s father.

A few items of interest are visible in ''Armistice Station'':
* A photograph: [[Boxey]]
* A photograph: presumably the [[Armistice Officer]]'s wife, possibly Boxey's mother
* A document: [[Cylon Centurian Model 0005]]
* A document: [[Cimtar Peace Accord]]

==Destruction==
Armistice Station was dwarfed in size by the Cylon basestar that paid it a visit. In a mysterious choice for the opening salvo of the [[Cylon Attack|Cylon attack]], the basestar attacked and presumably destroyed Armistice Station, while on board a [[humano-Cylon]] made out with the [[Armistice Officer]] as two [[Cylon Warrior|updated Cylon "chrome toasters"]] watched.
The [[Mini-Series#Armistice Station|Armistice Station section]] of the [[Mini-Series]] page discusses this peculiar circumstance.

{|
|-
| [[Image:Armistice Station Attacked By Basestar.jpg|thumb|Cylon Basestar attacking Armistice Station Credit: Sci-Fi]] || [[Image:Armistice Station Critically Damaged.jpg|thumb|Destruction of Armistice Station Credit: Sci-Fi]]
|}

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Military]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Cimtar Peace Accord

2005-05-09T11:23:59Z

MHall: now it's a combined TOS/RDM page.

[[Image:Cimtar Peace Accord.jpg|thumb|Document on [[Armstice Station]]<br\>from the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|reimagined series]]<br\>Credit: Sci-Fi]]
==In the Reimagined Series==
In the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|reimagined series]] of [[Battlestar Galactica]], the only reference to the ''Cimtar Peace Accord'' comes from a few papers visible on [[Armistice Station]] during the [[Mini-Series]]. Since the TOS-specific term "[[yahren]]s" occurs on [[Cylon Centurian Model 0005|another sheet of paper]] visible in the same scene, these papers might not be canon.

==In the Original Series==
In the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|original series]], the ''Cimtar Peace Accord'' was to be signed at the moon [[Cimtar]] to end the conflict between [[Colonials]] and [[Cylons]]. Instead, the Cylons to launch their largest attack against the Colonials, the [[Battle of Cimtar (TOS)|Battle of Cimtar]].

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: Colonial History]]
[[Category: Cylons]]
[[Category: RDM]]
[[Category: TOS]]

Cimtar Peace Accord (RDM)

2005-05-09T11:00:33Z

MHall: Cimtar Peace Accord (RDM) moved to Cimtar Peace Accord

#REDIRECT [[Cimtar Peace Accord]]

Triton

2005-05-09T00:07:55Z

MHall: typo fixed and Crashdown "refugee from Triton" mentioned

==[[RDM Battlestar Galactica|New Series]]==

The name of a [[battlestar]], featuring integrated command and control systems, and featuring Dr. [[Baltar, Gaius|Gaius Baltar's]] [[Command Navigation Program]] (CNP). She is reported as lost, along with the ''[[Columbia]]'' and ''[[Solaria]]''.

In [[33]], [[Valerii, Sharon|Sharon]] calls [[Crashdown]] "a refugee from Triton," not "from the Triton", suggesting there may be also a settlement named "Triton."

===Notes===
# According to information released by [[Zoic]], the ''Triton'' was one of the second batch of seven battlestars constructed at the time of the [[Cylon War]], the others being: ''[[Solaria]]'', ''Pacifica'', ''Acropolis'', ''Prometheus'', ''Argo'' and ''Poseidon''.
# During the opening of the [[Mini-Series]], [[Doral, Aaron|Aaron Doral]] states that the [[Battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]'' is the "last of her kind". This would suggest that:
#* Either the ''Triton'' mentioned later in the mini-series may have been built much later than the original twelve battlestars, possibly as a replacement vessel
#* Or Doral was simply making a point that the ''Galactica'' is the only remaining battlestar with non-integrated systems

==[[TOS Battlestar Galactica|The Original Series]]==
[[Image:5_battlestars.jpg|thumb|5 Battlestars at Cimtar (credit: Universal / ABC)]]

Though not specifically seen on screen, the name of the ''Triton'' is mentioned in connection when the Cylons attack on the fleet at [[Cimtar (TOS)|Cimtar]] ([[Saga of a Star World]]), along with the ''[[Acropolis]]'' and ''[[Pacifica]]'' - so it can be assumed that these three were the three unnamed battlestars seen with the ''[[Atlantia]]'' and ''[[Galactica]]' at Cimtar.

--[[User:Ernestborg9|Colonial Archivist]] 17:53, 27 Jan 2005 (EST)

[[Category:A to Z]] [[Category:Colonial Craft]] [[Category:Colonial Craft (TOS)]] [[Category:Colonial Military]] [[Category:Colonial Military (TOS)]] [[Category:RDM]] [[Category:TOS]] [[Category:Battlestars]]

Boxey (RDM)

2005-05-08T23:49:30Z

MHall: Added 2 more pictures, typo fix, age of 8-11 changed to 10-13 to match Connor Widdows' current age (turned 13 in January) one sentence added, didn't touch "mother" mistake

[[Image:Boxey_2003_001.jpg|thumb|Boxey from [[Bastille Day]] (Credit: Sky One)]]

Name: Boxey

Age: 10-13 (?)

Colony: Caprica

Disposition: Orphan

Location: [[Battlestar]] [[Galactica]]

Portrayed by [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0927045/ Connor Widdows]

==Mini-Series==
Boxey was the son of the [[Armistice Officer]] at [[Armistice Station]]. Following the [[Cylon Attack]], Boxey and his mother sought sanctuary when the [[Raptor]] flown by Lieutenants [[Valerii, Sharon#"Boomer" Valerii|Valerii]] and [[Agathon, Karl C.|Agathon]] made an emergency landing on [[Caprica]]. When it became evident that the Raptor could not rescue all those who came to it, Boxey's aunt gave him up for transport back to the [[Galactica]], where he has since been unofficially adopted by members of the crew ([[Mini-Series]]).

{|
|-
|[[Image:Photos seen on Armistice Station.jpg|thumb|Boxey & maybe his mother, photos on [[Armistice Station]] (Credit: Sci-Fi)]] ||[[Image:Boxey goes to the raptor, aunt watches.jpg|thumb|Boxey is rescued by Sharon's raptor, while his aunt watches(Credit: Sci-Fi)]]
|}

==Season One==
In season one, Boxey has been seen following [[Thrace, Kara|Starbuck]] around and copying her attitude and tone with [[Tigh, Saul|Tigh]] in [[Bastille Day]]. He has also been seen eating with [[Valerii, Sharon#"Boomer" Valerii|Boomer]] and other pilots on the [[Galactica]]. He is mostly found in deleted scenes and on the cutting room floor, with very little exposure otherwise.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Characters]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Boxey (RDM)/Archive 1

2005-05-08T23:11:56Z

MHall:

According to IMDB, he was in Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. I, also. Can anyone confirm this? [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 14:08, 18 Apr 2005 (EDT)

: I've watched the episode and I can't see him anywhere. Therefore, the only logical conclusions I could draw would either be an IMDb error or the actor's scenes were cut. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:23, 18 Apr 2005 (EDT)

:: As for the scenes being cut... I have just downloaded the deleted scenes for KLG, Pt. 1 from SCIFI.com and don't see Boxey either. (We do see Ellen Tigh, however, although all her scenes seem to have been excised. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:09, 18 Apr 2005 (EDT)
:::A lot of Ellen scenes seem to have been cut; she was in one or two other episodes, but was cut out, as I recall.[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 23:56, 18 Apr 2005 (EDT)

Well, from [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/04/index.html#a000025 this link] apparently Boxey won't be making any more appearances. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:51, 20 Apr 2005 (EDT)

: Honestly, I believe the Boxey element was just something to be thrown in, and I'm glad that TPTB have realized that. In the grand scheme of things, and with everything going on, I imagine that it would be extremely difficult to find something (storywise) for a child to do. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:04, 20 Apr 2005 (EDT)

Your article on Boxey says that Boxey and his mother were running for the raptor, but Boxey's
aunt gave him up to the raptor. Uh, what evidence do you have of this? Because of many references to his aunt, I assume she was the one who gave him up, but I also assume his mother was not with him at the time.

There is an important deleted scene that seems to occur moments before Boomer's scene with the gun in Kobol's Last Gleaming part 1. This scene includes Boxey, who walks in while Boomer is practicing drawing a gun. So, I imagine that is the source of the allegation that he was actually in this episode.
[[User:MHall|MHall]]

Armistice Station

2005-05-08T22:54:58Z

MHall: /* Armstice Station */ - I created this sorely needed page!

{|
|-
|[[Image:Armistice Station, Ship Docking With.jpg|thumb|Ship docking with Armistice Station]] || [[Image:Armistice Station.jpg|thumb|Armistice Station Credit: Sci-Fi]]
|}

==Introduction==
: "The Cylons were created by Man. They were created to make life easier on the twelve colonies. And then the day came when the Cylons decided to kill their masters. After a long and bloody struggle, an armistice was declared. The Cylons left for another world to call their own. A remote space station was built where Cylon and human could meet and maintain diplomatic relations. Every year the Colonials send an officer. The Cylons send no one. No one has seen or heard from the Cylons in over forty years."

With these words so begins the [[Mini-Series]].

==Description==
[[Image:Photos seen on Armistice Station.jpg|thumb|Photos of Boxey and perhaps his mother Credit: Sci-Fi]]
Armistice Station was this remote space station, and was attended by an [[Armistice Officer]], who happened to be [[Boxey (2003)|Boxey]]'s father.

A few items of interest are visible in ''Armistice Station'':
* A photograph: [[Boxey]]
* A photograph: presumably the [[Armistice Officer]]'s wife, possibly Boxey's mother
* A document: [[Cylon Centurian Model 0005]]
* A document: [[Cimtar Peace Accord (RDM)|Cimtar Peace Accord]]

==Destruction==
Armistice Station was dwarfed in size by the Cylon basestar that paid it a visit. In a mysterious choice for the opening salvo of the [[Cylon Attack|Cylon attack]], the basestar attacked and presumably destroyed Armistice Station, while on board a [[humano-Cylon]] made out with the [[Armistice Officer]] as two [[Cylon Warrior|updated Cylon "chrome toasters"]] watched.
The [[Mini-Series#Armistice Station|Armistice Station section]] of the [[Mini-Series]] page discusses this peculiar circumstance.

{|
|-
| [[Image:Armistice Station Attacked By Basestar.jpg|thumb|Cylon Basestar attacking Armistice Station Credit: Sci-Fi]] || [[Image:Armistice Station Critically Damaged.jpg|thumb|Destruction of Armistice Station Credit: Sci-Fi]]
|}

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Military]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Cimtar Peace Accord

2005-05-08T21:17:20Z

MHall: /* Cimtar Peace Accord (RDM) */ - created, it's a sheet on Armistice Station

[[Image:Cimtar Peace Accord.jpg|thumb|Document on Armstice Station, Credit: Sci-Fi]]
In the reimagined series of [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]], the only reference to the ''Cimtar Peace Accord'' comes from a few papers visible on [[Armistice Station]] during the [[Mini-Series]]. Since the TOS-specific term "[[yahren]]"s occurs on [[Cylon Centurian Model 0005|another sheet of paper]] visible in the same scene, these papers might not be canon.

==Related Links==
See also the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|original series]] pages:
* [[Cimtar]]
* [[Battle of Cimtar (TOS)|Battle of Cimtar]]
* [[Cimtar Peace Accord]]

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: Colonial History]]
[[Category: RDM]]

Troy (RDM)

2005-05-08T02:55:31Z

MHall: removed link to Iliad page, left words

==Re-imagined Series==

Troy was a Colonial mining colony that suffered a cataclysm, killing a majority of the people who were there at the time. ([[Flesh and Bone]])

=== Residents ===

* [[Valerii, Abraham|Abraham Valerii]] ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]])
* [[Valerii, Catherine|Catherine Valerii]] ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]])
* [[Valerii, Sharon|Sharon Valerii]]

==Greek Mythology==
In [[Greek mythology]], in Homer's Iliad, Troy was a city and the site of the [[Trojan War]].

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Planets]]
[[Category:RDM]]

File talk:Two Cylon Agents.jpg

2005-05-08T02:37:09Z

MHall:

Uh...isn't that only one Cylon agent, with the background woman being Crashdown or whoever? I definitely remember that only the Galactica Boomer had the pressure suit, the other copies were nekkid. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:45, 7 May 2005 (EDT)

: The woman in the background is [[Racetrack]]. As so far as we know, she is not a Cylon agent. Only Boomer. So this picture is inaccurate. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:01, 7 May 2005 (EDT)

I submitted this picture. Quotes caused the upload to hang, so I got rid of the scare quotes. It's Two 'Cylon Agents' wink, wink, nudge, nudge. That's a quote from Commander Adama, you know. Paraphrased: "Hopefully the Cylons will just see two Cylon Agents returning in a stolen raptor." If you can figure out how to put in quotes, go right ahead.

Apollo, Lord of Kobol

2005-05-07T21:27:04Z

MHall: added picture - Mr. Johnson just wants a link to his site for use

==Basic Facts==
[[Image:Apollo and Daphne.jpg|frame|[http://www.howarddavidjohnson.com Copyright 2004 Howard David Johnson] Permission for nonprofit use]]

Apollo is one of the [[Lords of Kobol]] worshipped by modern-day Colonials.

Apollo is the son of [[Zeus, Lord of Kobol]], and regarded in Colonial religion as the god of the hunt and the god of healing. In this, his role somewhat mirrors that of Apollo of the [[Greek Gods|Olympian Pantheon]] of Ancient Greece, though in [[Greek mythology]] Apollo's twin sister Artemis is the god the the hunt.

Within Colonial religion, Apollo is symbolised by the [[Arrow of Apollo]].

==Greek Mythology==
In Greek mythology, Apollo (Greek: Apollon) is the son of [[Zeus]] and [[Leto]] and the twin to [[Artemis]], with whom he shares lordship over the hunt. In his role as the god of healing, he also fulfilled the contradictory role of the bringer of plagues such as rabies and leprosy.

===Implications on Battlestar Galactica===
From the perspective of Battlestar Galactica, the Apollo in Greek mythology was said to have dominion colonists, and the parton saints of flocks and herds. As the god of healing, he also purified those guilty of murder.

These points all map onto the character of [[Adama, Lee|Lee Adama]]:

* As CAG, he is responsible for operating the [[Combat Air Patrol|Combat Air Patrols]] that protect the Colonists within the fleet (which could be regarded as a flock or herd)

* Within [[Bastille Day]], he provided a means by which [[Zarek, Tom|Tom Zarek's]] past acts (including blowing up a government building and killing people ([[Bastille Day]])) could be "purified" through hard labour in support of the fleet, thus bringing about Zarek's apparent reformation and return to society ([[Colonial Day]]).

Apollo is also linked to two further symbols of Greek mythology used within the Battlestar Galactica universe: the [[Pythia]], who were regarded as the mouth of Apollo, who occupied the temple at [[Delphi]].

'''See also:''' [[Greek Gods|The Greek Gods]]

===Sidebar===
In Greek mythology, Apollo hunted with a silver bow and arrows. In Battlestar Galactica, the Arrow of Apollo appears to be gold.

===External Links===
Wikipedia entry for [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_%28god%29 Apollo]

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Religion]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Troy (RDM)

2005-05-07T13:22:17Z

MHall: adding Greek myth angle for Troy

==Re-imagined Series==

Troy was a Colonial mining colony that suffered a cataclysm, killing a majority of the people who were there at the time. ([[Flesh and Bone]])

=== Residents ===

* [[Valerii, Abraham|Abraham Valerii]] ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]])
* [[Valerii, Catherine|Catherine Valerii]] ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]])
* [[Valerii, Sharon|Sharon Valerii]]

==Greek Mythology==
In [[Greek mythology]], in Homer's [[the Iliad|Iliad]], Troy was a city and the site of the [[Trojan War]].

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Planets]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Karl Agathon

2005-05-07T11:05:19Z

MHall: deleted wild speculation on nature of Helo's child, added mild speculation of mythological source of "Helo"

[[Image:Bsg-helo-1.jpg|thumb|Karl C. Agathon (credit: Sci-Fi Channel)]]

== Overview ==

Rank: Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Call sign: Helo

Serial: PK-789934

Age: late 20's

Marital Status: Single

Children: None

Currently Listed: Missing in Action, presumed dead

Former Post: [[Raptor]] [[ECO]], Raptor 478, assigned to [[Battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]''

Last known location: [[Caprica]]

(Played by: [[Tahmoh Penikett]])

Agathon was the ECO aboard Raptor 478, piloted by Lt. Sharon "[[Boomer]]" Valerii. He is in his mid-twenties, loyal, capable, resourceful and somewhat attracted to Valerii.

=== Biography ===

At the time of the [[Cylon Attack]], Agathon and Valerii were on patrol with the ''Galactica's'' last fully-operational [[Viper]] squadron, and witnessed the destruction of the squadron by [[Cylon]] [[Raider]]s, after the latter had used the Command Navigation Program ([[CNP]]) to disable the Vipers.

Following the attack, Agathon and Valerii attempted to return to ''Galactica'', avoiding Cylon patrols, but were unsuccessful: their Raptor was damaged during a Cylon missile strike, and Helo received a wound in his leg. As a result of the damage received, the Raptor was forced down on Caprica, where Valerii made emergency repairs, and the ship was mobbed by civilians desperate to get off the planet.

With limited space for survivors aboard the Raptor, Agathon volunteered his seat to Dr. [[Gauis Baltar]] Wduring the Cylon attack on the 12 colonies, he opts to remain in [[Caprica]] in order that Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]], in the hope that Baltar would be of benefit to the Colonials in their renewed fight against the Cylons.

After Boomer's departure, Helo apparently separated from the surviving refugees and fled from the Cylon ground forces. After six days on Caprica, suriving on anti-radiation medications from his survival pack, he was captured after noticing a version of the Cylon called [[Number Six]].

He was then "rescued" by a copy of Sharon Valerii/Boomer, as part of an elaborate (if potentially hastily-conceived) plan / experiment designed to make Valerii the object of Agathon's affections. Several situations are engineered to make this happen:

*A "honey trap" offering reasonably-secure accommodation (a "fall-out shelter") together with sufficient supplies for two people beneath a restaurant [[Act of Contrition]]
*Engineering Valerii's capture to test Helo's loyalty towards her ([[You Can't Go Home Again]] / [[Litmus]])
*Establishing a further (long-term) "honey trap" for Helo and Valerii in the wilderness of Caprica.

However, the Cylon plan goes awry when Valerii appears to fall in love with Agathon, and she forces them both on the run once more, this time genuinely seeking to escape from Caprica via the military base at [[Delphi]], now under Cylon control.

During their attempts to reach Delphi, Agathon witnesses a troop of Cylon [[Warrior]]s being lead by Number Six - the woman he considers to have been killed when Valerii rescued him. This draws him to the conclusion that the Cylons are using human clones they have created {[[Colonial Day]]). Once at Delphi, Agathon receives another shock: not only are further versions of Six on-hand - he also comes face-to-face with another Valerii, thus revealing the truth about "Boomer" to him. Believing he has been lured into a trap, Agathon goes on the run, leaving Valerii at the base.

== Notes ==

=== Note on the origin of "Agathon" ===

The new [[reimagined|Battlestar Galactica]] plays heavily on [[Greek mythology]] / history (the [[Pantheon|Olympian Gods]], use of names such as [[Delphi]], etc.). Therefore it might be interesting to note that "Agathon" may be derived from ''[[Agathos Daimon]]'' - meaning good spirit, one of the group of spirits (daemons) that lie between the gods and mortals. Also, the name Helo bears some similarity to Helios/Helius, the greek god of the sun.

=== Note on Helo ===

Helo's full name (or even his fate) wasn't revealed until "[[33]]". He was initially intended as an expendable character; Penikett's performance in the [[Mini-Series|mini-series]] convinced [[TPTB]] otherwise.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Characters]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Act of Contrition

2005-05-07T03:28:10Z

MHall: /* Questions */

[[Image:bsg-1-04.jpg|thumb|"Act of Contrition" (credit: Sci-Fi Channel)]]

== Overview ==

: When several Viper pilots are killed in a freak accident, Adama turns to Starbuck for help - but her involvement in the aftermath of the accident and in training new pilots causes the truth surrounding Zak Adama's death to finally surface. 

== Summary ==
* It is [[Saunders, Dwight|Dwight “Flat Top” Saunder’s]] 1,000th deck landing, which brings the Galactica’s pilots down to the hangar deck to celebrate
* As the celebrations continue, a set of communications drones are manoeuvred in the hangar bay and one breaks loose from its restraints, falling to the deck and igniting the motor. The drone flies across the hangar, smashing into the celebrating pilots where it explodes, killing Flat Top and twelve others and putting seven more in sickbay
* As the surviving pilots prepare for a memorial service for their fallen comrades, [[Thrace, Kara|Starbuck]] has flashbacks to her first meeting with [[Adama, William|Adama]], following the death of his son, [[Adama, Zak|Zak]]
* During the memorial service itself, she, [[Adama, Lee|Lee]] and Adama all have flashbacks – to Zak Adama’s funeral and (in Starbuck’s case) to her telling Zak he’s qualified as a [[Viper]] pilot
* Following the service, Adama asks Starbuck to oversee the training of any new pilots they can find in the fleet
* She is initially hesitant, and Adama guesses the cause is Zak’s accident. He reassures her that his son’s death was not her fault – which causes Starbuck to remember her admission to Lee Adama: that she passed Zak through his basic training when he had in fact failed ([[Mini-Series]])
* She reluctantly accepts the duty, but memories of Zak continue to haunt her as she plays cards with [[Baltar, Gaius|Baltar]], oblivious of a conversation that takes place between [[Crashdown]] and [[Gaeta]] concerning Baltar’s [[Cylon detector]] – a conversation that leaves [[Valerii, Sharon#"Boomer" Valerii|Boomer]] very uncomfortable
* Elsewhere on the ''Galactica'', [[Roslin, Laura|Roslin]] is examined by the ship’s medical officer, Doctor [[Cottle]]. His diagnosis is not good: her cancer is inoperable. Roslin decides that she wants to try alternative therapy using [[Chamalla]] extract – something entirely unproven in its effectiveness
* Later, Starbuck meets her first batch of recruits. They are all pilots – but none have ever flown a Viper. With no simulators aboard the ''Galactica'', the newbies – [[Nugget|nuggets]] – are thrown in at the deep end: straight into the cockpit of the real thing
* Their performance during their first training flight is hardly stellar, and Starbuck is uncompromisingly hard on the first batch of recruits, washing them all out
* Lee confronts her on her decision, and realises it is caused more by guilt about Zak than on the ability of the trainees. When she refuses to reinstate the trainees, he takes the matter with Adama
* Adama initially support’s Starbuck’s decision, but a misunderstanding between him and Lee causes him to meet with Starbuck to discuss Zak’s death
* When Starbuck tries to dodge the issue, Adama pins her down, and she admits the truth: Zak bodged his final training flights, but she passed him because she was in love with him and they were engaged – but Zak really wasn’t the right material for flying Vipers
* Angered and hurt, Adama orders her to reinstate the trainees and to get out of his cabin
* Starbuck leads a handful of the trainees on a training flight, only to have a group of [[Cylon Raider|Cylon Raiders]] show up
* In the ensuing dogfight, Starbuck takes care of the Raiders, but her Viper is damaged, forcing her to eject inside the atmosphere of a weather-wracked moon

===On [[Caprica]]===
* [[Agathon, Karl C.|Helo]] and [[Valerii, Sharon#Caprica Valerii|Valerii]] are tracking the source of the signal they previously picked up out in the woods (“Water”)
* The signal leads them to a restaurant in the city, which has a radiation shelter under it, stocked with everything they need to survive - water, food, blankets - even anti-radiation medication
* Their arrival at the restaurant is observed by [[Number Six|Six]].

== Questions ==


* Did the scene with the viper burning and Starbuck's ejection at the end actually happen then? The problem is that it was also shown earlier in the episode, in two parts, apparently as flashbacks for Starbuck. (This is the case in the Australian version, at least.)

== Analysis ==
An interesting episode that reveals a lot of the back story around the late Zak Adama, hampered by a weak start.

The bonhomie between Starbuck, Lee and Adama as seen in the teaser doesn’t entirely work. Coming on top of the clear division between Adama and Lee following the latter’s activities on the ''Astral Queen'' just 48 hours before, it is hard to accept the cameraderie that they share here.

Also, while hi-jinx are to be expected, even in the most dire situations – the crew are going to have to let off steam at times – the whole “1,000th” landing idea smacked too much of a contrivance to get ''Galactica’s'' pilots together so that a bunch of them can be knocked off.

Moving on, there is Adama's cosy tête-à-tête with Starbuck regarding the role of instructor, the cosy little cuddle at the end just doesn't sit right. Until now, Adama has been portrayed as approachable but aloof. Personnel of all ranks have been comfortable in talking to him openly, and have clearly regarded him with respect. However, there has always been a degree of separation
between him and those around him. So it's a little hard to accept Adama as a man given to heartfelt hugs with junior officers - no matter what their past.

The hug serves a single purpose: a (transparent) means to give Adama's relationship with Starbuck a little extra depth ready for his fall when her revelation concerning Zak is finally made.

However, once the story gets past these little wobbles, it turns into a finely-crafted piece, weaving the past, present and - in Starbuck's case - the future into a picture of love, guilt, betrayal, need, and hurt. The acting throughout is outstanding, and the framing superb throughout. The interweaving of Starbuck's and Adama's recollections of Zak's funeral with the Service for the Dead on ''Galatica'' is particularly potent, while Starbuck's flashbacks in particular serve to reveal her angst far more effectively than any amount of dialogue. To quote an old cliché: a picture is worth a thousand words.

Alongside the main story arc, other elements are moved forward, either directly, or through dialogue. It is through the latter that we learn that the water situation in the fleet is still not resolved, and that operations are continuing on the ice moon discovered by Boomer and Crashdown in [[Water]]; we also learn – via the card game – that secrets on ''Galactica'' are proving hard to keep: rumours are already spreading that Gaeta is assisting Baltar in the development of his Cylon detector.

Given a more direct reference is Roslin's illness. In a nice follow-on from [[Bastille Day]] she meets the ''Galactica's'' medical officer. Something of a cliché himself - a healer killing himself through smoking - but even so, he is a useful foil for opening a new mini-arc to Roslin's character: her determination to fight the cancer through orthodox and possibly unorthodox means.

Finally, on Caprica, it is now clear that the Cylons want Helo to remain with Valerii. The receipt of the "military signal" and the discovery of the cosy little "radiation shelter" are together too much of a coincidence. The shelter is a honey-trap, and Valerii is the bait.

An essential element to any story is the performance of the actors, and "Acts" presents some of the strongest performances just seen in BSG. In this, [[Edward James Olmos]] clearly silences any critics of his acting abilities. With barely a turn of the lips, an opening or narrowing of the eyes, he conveys everything we need to know about Adama's reaction to Thrace's admission in his cabin: confusion, hurt, betrayal, loss, anger and finally – fury. It's been a while since such a range of emotional reactions have been so powerfully portrayed, and full kudos to Mr. Olmos and to the episode's director and director of photography for the manner in which the scene is crafted.

Equally deserving of praise is [[Katee Sackhoff]] for her handling of Thrace's memories and dilemma. Here, for the first time, we get to see what goes on behind the “Starbuck” mask; and the flashback scenes to her time with Zak are handled with extraordinary poise, and add the required depth needed to reinforce her guilt at his loss, and her fear of what might happen should she ever be put in a similar position again – or that Adama should ever discover the truth.

Overall, a vastly different episode from all that has gone before and one that is, as stated before, saved from mediocrity only in the interweaving of the various story elements – future, present and past – and the outstanding performances from both Sackhoff and Olmos, well-supported by [[Jamie Bamber]] and [[James Callas]].

--[[User:Ernestborg9|Colonial Archivist]] 00:14, 15 Jan 2005 (EST)

== Notes ==

*It is 48 hours since the prisoner uprising on the ''Astral Queen''
*Water replenishment ops are still underway
*The ''Galactica'' has a remaining contingent of 40 Vipers on top of her 5 Raptors (revealed in [[Water]]), but now only has 21 combat-ready pilots and a further 8 newbie “nuggets”
*Cylon Raiders have guns of an apparently similar nature to those mounted on Vipers
*Zak and Starbuck were engaged, and that led to her passing him for flight duty
*Adama's relationship with Starbuck is not as long-standing as the mini appeared to suggest: they have only served together for 2 years
*Word is leaking out about Baltar's “Cylon detector”
*Helo and Valerii still appear to be the only “people” left alive on Caprica. Neither seem in any hurry to get off the planet.
*The Colonial military use HumVees and Deuce-and-a-half trucks!
*While the viper is burning on entry into the atmosphere, the viper's [[Altimeter|altimeter]] is going in reverse, indicating altitude gain.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

In Adama's Cabin, with Thrace and Adama, discussing comments made earlier by Lee Adama:

Adama: He said something else. That you might have been feeling guilty about something you did for Zak. What did you do for him? 
Thrace: I don't know. You'd have to ask Lee. 
Adama: I'm asking you. 
Thrace: Well I don't kn- I, ah...I don't really know what he was talking about, so... 
Adama: Don't fence with me, Kara. I love you like a daughter. I don't deserve that. 
Thrace: Ummm...Zak...failed...basic flight. He wasn't a bad pilot, he just had no feel for flying...and, um, when it came to his final check ride he...busted...three of the test manoeuvres, and I should have flunked him, but I didn't. The bottom line is your...son...didn't have the chops to fly a Viper...and it killed him. 
Adama: (following a flashback): You did it because you were engaged. 
Thrace (breaking down): Because I made a mistake...because I was just...I was so in love with him...and I let that get in the way of doing my job...and um, and he um, he just wanted it so much, and I...I didn't want to be the one who crushed him... 
Adama: Reinstate the trainees to flight status. 
Thrace: I will...but I just want you to understand...that I... 
Adama: Do your job. 
Thrace: Yes sir... 
Adama: And walk out of this cabin...while you still can...

== Official Statements ==




== Statistics ==



=== Guest Stars ===


*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Jill+Teed Jill Teed] as [[Hadrian|Sergeant Hadrian]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Donnelly+Rhodes Donnelly Rhodes] as [[Doctor Cottle]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Lorena+Gale Lorena Gale] as [[Elosha]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Tobias+Mehler Tobias Mehler] as [[Adama, Zak|Zak Adama]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Colby+Johannson Colby Johannson] as [[Saunders, Dwight|Flat Top]]
*[[Olmos, Bodie|Bodie Olmos]] as [[Constanza|Constanza / Hot Dog]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Lucianna+Carro Lucianna Carro] as [[Katraine|Katraine / Kat]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Terry+Chen Terry Chen] as [[Perry|Perry / Chuckles]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Bill+Melien Bill Meilen] as Caprica Cleric




=== Writing & Direction ===

*Written by [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Bradley+Thompson Bradley Thompson] and [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+David+Weddle David Weddle]
*Directed by [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Rod+Hardy Rod Hardy]




=== Production Details ===

*Series: 1 (2004 / 2005)
*Production Number: 1.04
*Airdate Order: 4 (of 13)

=== First Run Air Dates & Releases ===

*UK Airdate: 8 November 2004 (Sky One)
*US Airdate: 28 January 2005 (Sci-Fi Channel)
*DVD Release: 28 March 2005 (UK)

{{Episode List}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: Episode Guide (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Act of Contrition

2005-05-07T03:21:55Z

MHall: /* Notes */

[[Image:bsg-1-04.jpg|thumb|"Act of Contrition" (credit: Sci-Fi Channel)]]

== Overview ==

: When several Viper pilots are killed in a freak accident, Adama turns to Starbuck for help - but her involvement in the aftermath of the accident and in training new pilots causes the truth surrounding Zak Adama's death to finally surface. 

== Summary ==
* It is [[Saunders, Dwight|Dwight “Flat Top” Saunder’s]] 1,000th deck landing, which brings the Galactica’s pilots down to the hangar deck to celebrate
* As the celebrations continue, a set of communications drones are manoeuvred in the hangar bay and one breaks loose from its restraints, falling to the deck and igniting the motor. The drone flies across the hangar, smashing into the celebrating pilots where it explodes, killing Flat Top and twelve others and putting seven more in sickbay
* As the surviving pilots prepare for a memorial service for their fallen comrades, [[Thrace, Kara|Starbuck]] has flashbacks to her first meeting with [[Adama, William|Adama]], following the death of his son, [[Adama, Zak|Zak]]
* During the memorial service itself, she, [[Adama, Lee|Lee]] and Adama all have flashbacks – to Zak Adama’s funeral and (in Starbuck’s case) to her telling Zak he’s qualified as a [[Viper]] pilot
* Following the service, Adama asks Starbuck to oversee the training of any new pilots they can find in the fleet
* She is initially hesitant, and Adama guesses the cause is Zak’s accident. He reassures her that his son’s death was not her fault – which causes Starbuck to remember her admission to Lee Adama: that she passed Zak through his basic training when he had in fact failed ([[Mini-Series]])
* She reluctantly accepts the duty, but memories of Zak continue to haunt her as she plays cards with [[Baltar, Gaius|Baltar]], oblivious of a conversation that takes place between [[Crashdown]] and [[Gaeta]] concerning Baltar’s [[Cylon detector]] – a conversation that leaves [[Valerii, Sharon#"Boomer" Valerii|Boomer]] very uncomfortable
* Elsewhere on the ''Galactica'', [[Roslin, Laura|Roslin]] is examined by the ship’s medical officer, Doctor [[Cottle]]. His diagnosis is not good: her cancer is inoperable. Roslin decides that she wants to try alternative therapy using [[Chamalla]] extract – something entirely unproven in its effectiveness
* Later, Starbuck meets her first batch of recruits. They are all pilots – but none have ever flown a Viper. With no simulators aboard the ''Galactica'', the newbies – [[Nugget|nuggets]] – are thrown in at the deep end: straight into the cockpit of the real thing
* Their performance during their first training flight is hardly stellar, and Starbuck is uncompromisingly hard on the first batch of recruits, washing them all out
* Lee confronts her on her decision, and realises it is caused more by guilt about Zak than on the ability of the trainees. When she refuses to reinstate the trainees, he takes the matter with Adama
* Adama initially support’s Starbuck’s decision, but a misunderstanding between him and Lee causes him to meet with Starbuck to discuss Zak’s death
* When Starbuck tries to dodge the issue, Adama pins her down, and she admits the truth: Zak bodged his final training flights, but she passed him because she was in love with him and they were engaged – but Zak really wasn’t the right material for flying Vipers
* Angered and hurt, Adama orders her to reinstate the trainees and to get out of his cabin
* Starbuck leads a handful of the trainees on a training flight, only to have a group of [[Cylon Raider|Cylon Raiders]] show up
* In the ensuing dogfight, Starbuck takes care of the Raiders, but her Viper is damaged, forcing her to eject inside the atmosphere of a weather-wracked moon

===On [[Caprica]]===
* [[Agathon, Karl C.|Helo]] and [[Valerii, Sharon#Caprica Valerii|Valerii]] are tracking the source of the signal they previously picked up out in the woods (“Water”)
* The signal leads them to a restaurant in the city, which has a radiation shelter under it, stocked with everything they need to survive - water, food, blankets - even anti-radiation medication
* Their arrival at the restaurant is observed by [[Number Six|Six]].

== Questions ==



== Analysis ==
An interesting episode that reveals a lot of the back story around the late Zak Adama, hampered by a weak start.

The bonhomie between Starbuck, Lee and Adama as seen in the teaser doesn’t entirely work. Coming on top of the clear division between Adama and Lee following the latter’s activities on the ''Astral Queen'' just 48 hours before, it is hard to accept the cameraderie that they share here.

Also, while hi-jinx are to be expected, even in the most dire situations – the crew are going to have to let off steam at times – the whole “1,000th” landing idea smacked too much of a contrivance to get ''Galactica’s'' pilots together so that a bunch of them can be knocked off.

Moving on, there is Adama's cosy tête-à-tête with Starbuck regarding the role of instructor, the cosy little cuddle at the end just doesn't sit right. Until now, Adama has been portrayed as approachable but aloof. Personnel of all ranks have been comfortable in talking to him openly, and have clearly regarded him with respect. However, there has always been a degree of separation
between him and those around him. So it's a little hard to accept Adama as a man given to heartfelt hugs with junior officers - no matter what their past.

The hug serves a single purpose: a (transparent) means to give Adama's relationship with Starbuck a little extra depth ready for his fall when her revelation concerning Zak is finally made.

However, once the story gets past these little wobbles, it turns into a finely-crafted piece, weaving the past, present and - in Starbuck's case - the future into a picture of love, guilt, betrayal, need, and hurt. The acting throughout is outstanding, and the framing superb throughout. The interweaving of Starbuck's and Adama's recollections of Zak's funeral with the Service for the Dead on ''Galatica'' is particularly potent, while Starbuck's flashbacks in particular serve to reveal her angst far more effectively than any amount of dialogue. To quote an old cliché: a picture is worth a thousand words.

Alongside the main story arc, other elements are moved forward, either directly, or through dialogue. It is through the latter that we learn that the water situation in the fleet is still not resolved, and that operations are continuing on the ice moon discovered by Boomer and Crashdown in [[Water]]; we also learn – via the card game – that secrets on ''Galactica'' are proving hard to keep: rumours are already spreading that Gaeta is assisting Baltar in the development of his Cylon detector.

Given a more direct reference is Roslin's illness. In a nice follow-on from [[Bastille Day]] she meets the ''Galactica's'' medical officer. Something of a cliché himself - a healer killing himself through smoking - but even so, he is a useful foil for opening a new mini-arc to Roslin's character: her determination to fight the cancer through orthodox and possibly unorthodox means.

Finally, on Caprica, it is now clear that the Cylons want Helo to remain with Valerii. The receipt of the "military signal" and the discovery of the cosy little "radiation shelter" are together too much of a coincidence. The shelter is a honey-trap, and Valerii is the bait.

An essential element to any story is the performance of the actors, and "Acts" presents some of the strongest performances just seen in BSG. In this, [[Edward James Olmos]] clearly silences any critics of his acting abilities. With barely a turn of the lips, an opening or narrowing of the eyes, he conveys everything we need to know about Adama's reaction to Thrace's admission in his cabin: confusion, hurt, betrayal, loss, anger and finally – fury. It's been a while since such a range of emotional reactions have been so powerfully portrayed, and full kudos to Mr. Olmos and to the episode's director and director of photography for the manner in which the scene is crafted.

Equally deserving of praise is [[Katee Sackhoff]] for her handling of Thrace's memories and dilemma. Here, for the first time, we get to see what goes on behind the “Starbuck” mask; and the flashback scenes to her time with Zak are handled with extraordinary poise, and add the required depth needed to reinforce her guilt at his loss, and her fear of what might happen should she ever be put in a similar position again – or that Adama should ever discover the truth.

Overall, a vastly different episode from all that has gone before and one that is, as stated before, saved from mediocrity only in the interweaving of the various story elements – future, present and past – and the outstanding performances from both Sackhoff and Olmos, well-supported by [[Jamie Bamber]] and [[James Callas]].

--[[User:Ernestborg9|Colonial Archivist]] 00:14, 15 Jan 2005 (EST)

== Notes ==

*It is 48 hours since the prisoner uprising on the ''Astral Queen''
*Water replenishment ops are still underway
*The ''Galactica'' has a remaining contingent of 40 Vipers on top of her 5 Raptors (revealed in [[Water]]), but now only has 21 combat-ready pilots and a further 8 newbie “nuggets”
*Cylon Raiders have guns of an apparently similar nature to those mounted on Vipers
*Zak and Starbuck were engaged, and that led to her passing him for flight duty
*Adama's relationship with Starbuck is not as long-standing as the mini appeared to suggest: they have only served together for 2 years
*Word is leaking out about Baltar's “Cylon detector”
*Helo and Valerii still appear to be the only “people” left alive on Caprica. Neither seem in any hurry to get off the planet.
*The Colonial military use HumVees and Deuce-and-a-half trucks!
*While the viper is burning on entry into the atmosphere, the viper's [[Altimeter|altimeter]] is going in reverse, indicating altitude gain.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

In Adama's Cabin, with Thrace and Adama, discussing comments made earlier by Lee Adama:

Adama: He said something else. That you might have been feeling guilty about something you did for Zak. What did you do for him? 
Thrace: I don't know. You'd have to ask Lee. 
Adama: I'm asking you. 
Thrace: Well I don't kn- I, ah...I don't really know what he was talking about, so... 
Adama: Don't fence with me, Kara. I love you like a daughter. I don't deserve that. 
Thrace: Ummm...Zak...failed...basic flight. He wasn't a bad pilot, he just had no feel for flying...and, um, when it came to his final check ride he...busted...three of the test manoeuvres, and I should have flunked him, but I didn't. The bottom line is your...son...didn't have the chops to fly a Viper...and it killed him. 
Adama: (following a flashback): You did it because you were engaged. 
Thrace (breaking down): Because I made a mistake...because I was just...I was so in love with him...and I let that get in the way of doing my job...and um, and he um, he just wanted it so much, and I...I didn't want to be the one who crushed him... 
Adama: Reinstate the trainees to flight status. 
Thrace: I will...but I just want you to understand...that I... 
Adama: Do your job. 
Thrace: Yes sir... 
Adama: And walk out of this cabin...while you still can...

== Official Statements ==




== Statistics ==



=== Guest Stars ===


*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Jill+Teed Jill Teed] as [[Hadrian|Sergeant Hadrian]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Donnelly+Rhodes Donnelly Rhodes] as [[Doctor Cottle]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Lorena+Gale Lorena Gale] as [[Elosha]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Tobias+Mehler Tobias Mehler] as [[Adama, Zak|Zak Adama]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Colby+Johannson Colby Johannson] as [[Saunders, Dwight|Flat Top]]
*[[Olmos, Bodie|Bodie Olmos]] as [[Constanza|Constanza / Hot Dog]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Lucianna+Carro Lucianna Carro] as [[Katraine|Katraine / Kat]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Terry+Chen Terry Chen] as [[Perry|Perry / Chuckles]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Bill+Melien Bill Meilen] as Caprica Cleric




=== Writing & Direction ===

*Written by [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Bradley+Thompson Bradley Thompson] and [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+David+Weddle David Weddle]
*Directed by [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Rod+Hardy Rod Hardy]




=== Production Details ===

*Series: 1 (2004 / 2005)
*Production Number: 1.04
*Airdate Order: 4 (of 13)

=== First Run Air Dates & Releases ===

*UK Airdate: 8 November 2004 (Sky One)
*US Airdate: 28 January 2005 (Sci-Fi Channel)
*DVD Release: 28 March 2005 (UK)

{{Episode List}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: Episode Guide (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Viper (TRS)

2005-05-07T02:28:21Z

MHall: /* Re-imagined Viper */ added Altimeter

==[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Viper]]==

=== Overview ===

[[Image:Bsg-viper-1.jpg|thumb|Viper Mk II (credit: Gabriel C. Koerner)]]

The Viper is the Colonial Defence Force's primary space superiority fighter / attack craft. Capable of atmospheric flight, the Viper is a single-seat craft mounting two kinetic energy weapons ([[KEW]]s), as well as having hardpoints beneath the wings for mounting missiles, munitions pods and other ordnance ([[The Hand of God]]).

The Viper was originally introduced into Colonial service shortly before the outbreak of the [[Cylon War]]. However, it was the Mark II variant, designed specifically for use with the new Colonial [[Battlestar]]s that is best remembered.

The Mark II served with distinction throughout the Cylon War, proving a capable fighting vehicle that won renown across the 12 colonies and is regarded as one of the reasons the Colonials did not suffer defeat at the hands of the Cylons.

The Mark II remained in service after the end of the war, but was subsequently superceded by newer models. At the time of the renewed Cylon attack on the 12 Colonies, the Mark VII was the front-line variant of the Viper design, retaining the Mark II general layout but using fully networked systems providing superior battle management and fight information for the pilot.

Ironically, it was the incorporation of the new integrated systems that prevented the majority of Mark VIIs from being effective during the Cylon attack: as with the majority of Colonial Fleet, the Mark VII suffered fatal computer glitches on contact with Cylon forces. Thanks to Six's relationship with Baltar, the navigational software in standard use onboard the majority of Colonial Fleet vessels had backdoors that allowed the Cylons to infiltrate a vessel's network by wireless signals and disable its power systems. While the problem could be overcome by removing the navigational upgrade comprimised by the Cylons, this information was not discovered in time to be of major benefit to the surprised and hard-pressed Colonial forces. Galactica herself never had the upgrade installed, on the order of Commander Adama ([[Mini-Series]]). Since Galactica's systems are not networked, it is unclear as to what affect if any the comprimised navigational system would have had on her.

==== Atmospheric Operations ====
The Viper is designed for atmospheric as well as space-based operations. However, Vipers consume more fuel during atmospheric operations than in the vacuum of space: once in an atmosphere, the engines must run continuously to retain airflow over the wing lifting surfaces. Depending on the composition of the atmosphere itself, this can place severe strain on the Viper's engines ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]).

Due to their wing configuration, Vipers may also suffer from poor handling at low speeds within an atmosphere.

==== Life Support ====
Viper cockpits are pressurised and heated, but they are flown with the pilot wearing a flight suit that is capable of providing full life support should ejection be required ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]). The life support systems are built-in to the back of the pilot's seat itself, together with the flight harness. Following an ejection, the back of the seat separates automatically, effectively becoming a backpack for the pilot ([[Act of Contrition]]).

Should ejection take place within an atmosphere, the life support backpack / seat back also incorporates a parachute.

=== Technical Specifications ===

[[Image:Bsg-viper7-1.jpg|thumb|Viper MkVII (credit: Sci-Fi Channel)]]

==== Dimensions ====
Mark II
*Length: (approx) 25ft
*Wingspan: (approx) 12ft

Mark VII
*Length: (approx) 28ft
*Wingspan: (approx) 14ft

==== Propulsion ====
*Both: 3x sublight engines mounted aft; 2x reverse thrust motors; [[RCS]] points
*Mark VII: Angular exhaust nozzle design suggest possible thrust-vectoring.

==== Armaments ====
*Mark II: 2x forward-firing kenetic energy weapons ([[KEW]]) mounted in the wing roots
*Mark VII: 3x forward-firing kenetic energy weapons (KEW); 2 mounted towards the outboard sections of the wings; 1 mounted in the vertical stabiliser
*Both: Weapon hardpoints for mounting missiles / munitions pods, etc. under the wings

==== Instruments ====
*Mark II: [[Radio Magnetic Indicator]]
*Mark II: [[Torque Percent Gauge]]
*Mark II: [[Altimeter]]

==== Crew ====
*Pilot

==== Notes ====

Since the Galactica only had 20 Viper Mark II's aboard, they needed as many fighters as possible, thus the remaining Mark VII's were refitted and stripped of their advanced computer systems. However, since this is not how the Mark VII was designed, it makes the craft increasingly difficult to handle and can only be flown by the most experienced pilots ([[Apollo]]).

=== Layout ===

The Viper is a long, sleek vehicle that can be spilt into two parts, fore and aft.

*Fore section: comprises the nose back to the cockpit. This contains the forward RCS systems for manoeuvring the craft; the forward landing gear; the main avionics and sensor packages, plus the single-seat cockpit itself
*Stern section: comprises the main engines, fuel tanks, wings and vertial stabiliser. The wings themselves contain the kinetic energy weapons ("guns") and their munitions storage and feeds. Harpoints beneath the wings allow missiles, munitions pods and other items to be rack-mounted ([[The Hand of God]]). The wings roots contain the main landing gear. This section of a Viper also contains a number of RCS manoeuvring packs.

The stern section of a Viper is distinctive because of the offset "intakes" mounted just behind the cockpit. The port / starboard "intake" nacelles incorporate small but powerful reverse thrust engines that can quickly counter a Viper's forward momentum in an emergency ([[The Hand of God]]).

==[[TOS Battlestar Galactica|Original Series Viper]]==
[[Image:bsg-viper-tos.jpg|thumb|Starhound Viper (credit: Universal / ABC)]]

The Colonial Starhound Viper was the primary space superiority fighter / attack craft deployed by the Colonials. Capable of atmospheric flight, it was a single-seat craft mounting two laser-torpedo guns as standard, as well as having hardpoints for mounting missiles.

The Viper was originally introduced into Colonial service during the 1,000 yahren war with the Cylons, and was a far superior craft to the [[Cylon Raider#Original Series Raider|Cylon Raider]].

Propulsion was said to be provided by a hybrid tylium / fusion reactor powering three ion engines with a "turbo-boost" facility for very rapid acceleration. For atmospheric flight, the engines are additionally supplied with atmospheric gases as combustibles to conserve on-board fuel supplies. The viper cockpit is fully pressurised, and in the event of catastrophic system damage, the entire module can detach and eject away from the damaged Viper.

==== Dimensions ====
*Length: (approx) 28.5ft
*Wingspan: (approx) 12.5ft

==== Propulsion ====
*3x ion engines mounted aft

==== Aramaments ====
*2 x forward-firing laser-torpedo guns
*4 x two-hundred kiloton Solonite missiles
*2 x thirty megaton Solonite bombs

====Crew====
* Pilot

===Layout===
[[Image:tos-viper-cut.jpg|thumb|Starhound Viper Cutaway (credit: Mike McAdams)]]
The Viper is a long, sleek vehicle that can be spilt into two parts, fore and aft.

* Fore section: comprises the nose back to the cockpit. This contains the targeting dish and sensor array, the forward landing gear; the main avionics and sensor packages, plus the cockpit module
* Stern section: comprises the main engines, reactor systems, turbo-boost injection systems, fuel tanks, wings and vertial stabiliser. The wings themselves contain the laser-torpedo guns and their power packs. Harpoints beneath the wings allow missiles, munitions pods and other items to be rack-mounted.

--[[User:Ernestborg9|Colonial Archivist]] 20:07, 1 Feb 2005 (EST)

==Video Game Variants==
Within the [[Video Game]], three variants of Viper are available: the Mark I, which is designed to be an earlier version of the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|original series]] Viper; the Mark II, which is largely based on the original series Viper, and the Mark III, which is described as "superior to the Mark II in every respect".

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Craft]]
[[Category:Colonial Craft (TOS)]]
[[Category:Colonial Military]]
[[Category:Colonial Military (TOS)]]
[[Category:RDM]]
[[Category:TOS]]
[[Category:Video Game Ships]]

The 33 Homeric Hymns

2005-05-07T00:27:19Z

MHall: The 33 Homeric Hymns moved to The Homeric Hymns

#REDIRECT [[The Homeric Hymns]]

Viper (TRS)

2005-05-06T23:32:46Z

MHall: /* Re-imagined Viper */

==[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Viper]]==

=== Overview ===

[[Image:Bsg-viper-1.jpg|thumb|Viper Mk II (credit: Gabriel C. Koerner)]]

The Viper is the Colonial Defence Force's primary space superiority fighter / attack craft. Capable of atmospheric flight, the Viper is a single-seat craft mounting two kinetic energy weapons ([[KEW]]s), as well as having hardpoints beneath the wings for mounting missiles, munitions pods and other ordnance ([[The Hand of God]]).

The Viper was originally introduced into Colonial service shortly before the outbreak of the [[Cylon War]]. However, it was the Mark II variant, designed specifically for use with the new Colonial [[Battlestar]]s that is best remembered.

The Mark II served with distinction throughout the Cylon War, proving a capable fighting vehicle that won renown across the 12 colonies and is regarded as one of the reasons the Colonials did not suffer defeat at the hands of the Cylons.

The Mark II remained in service after the end of the war, but was subsequently superceded by newer models. At the time of the renewed Cylon attack on the 12 Colonies, the Mark VII was the front-line variant of the Viper design, retaining the Mark II general layout but using fully networked systems providing superior battle management and fight information for the pilot.

Ironically, it was the incorporation of the new integrated systems that prevented the majority of Mark VIIs from being effective during the Cylon attack: as with the majority of Colonial Fleet, the Mark VII suffered fatal computer glitches on contact with Cylon forces. Thanks to Six's relationship with Baltar, the navigational software in standard use onboard the majority of Colonial Fleet vessels had backdoors that allowed the Cylons to infiltrate a vessel's network by wireless signals and disable its power systems. While the problem could be overcome by removing the navigational upgrade comprimised by the Cylons, this information was not discovered in time to be of major benefit to the surprised and hard-pressed Colonial forces. Galactica herself never had the upgrade installed, on the order of Commander Adama ([[Mini-Series]]). Since Galactica's systems are not networked, it is unclear as to what affect if any the comprimised navigational system would have had on her.

==== Atmospheric Operations ====
The Viper is designed for atmospheric as well as space-based operations. However, Vipers consume more fuel during atmospheric operations than in the vacuum of space: once in an atmosphere, the engines must run continuously to retain airflow over the wing lifting surfaces. Depending on the composition of the atmosphere itself, this can place severe strain on the Viper's engines ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]).

Due to their wing configuration, Vipers may also suffer from poor handling at low speeds within an atmosphere.

==== Life Support ====
Viper cockpits are pressurised and heated, but they are flown with the pilot wearing a flight suit that is capable of providing full life support should ejection be required ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]). The life support systems are built-in to the back of the pilot's seat itself, together with the flight harness. Following an ejection, the back of the seat separates automatically, effectively becoming a backpack for the pilot ([[Act of Contrition]]).

Should ejection take place within an atmosphere, the life support backpack / seat back also incorporates a parachute.

=== Technical Specifications ===

[[Image:Bsg-viper7-1.jpg|thumb|Viper MkVII (credit: Sci-Fi Channel)]]

==== Dimensions ====
Mark II
*Length: (approx) 25ft
*Wingspan: (approx) 12ft

Mark VII
*Length: (approx) 28ft
*Wingspan: (approx) 14ft

==== Propulsion ====
*Both: 3x sublight engines mounted aft; 2x reverse thrust motors; [[RCS]] points
*Mark VII: Angular exhaust nozzle design suggest possible thrust-vectoring.

==== Armaments ====
*Mark II: 2x forward-firing kenetic energy weapons ([[KEW]]) mounted in the wing roots
*Mark VII: 3x forward-firing kenetic energy weapons (KEW); 2 mounted towards the outboard sections of the wings; 1 mounted in the vertical stabiliser
*Both: Weapon hardpoints for mounting missiles / munitions pods, etc. under the wings

==== Instruments ====
*Mark II: [[Radio Magnetic Indicator]]
*Mark II: [[Torque Percent Guage]]

==== Crew ====
*Pilot

==== Notes ====

Since the Galactica only had 20 Viper Mark II's aboard, they needed as many fighters as possible, thus the remaining Mark VII's were refitted and stripped of their advanced computer systems. However, since this is not how the Mark VII was designed, it makes the craft increasingly difficult to handle and can only be flown by the most experienced pilots ([[Apollo]]).

=== Layout ===

The Viper is a long, sleek vehicle that can be spilt into two parts, fore and aft.

*Fore section: comprises the nose back to the cockpit. This contains the forward RCS systems for manoeuvring the craft; the forward landing gear; the main avionics and sensor packages, plus the single-seat cockpit itself
*Stern section: comprises the main engines, fuel tanks, wings and vertial stabiliser. The wings themselves contain the kinetic energy weapons ("guns") and their munitions storage and feeds. Harpoints beneath the wings allow missiles, munitions pods and other items to be rack-mounted ([[The Hand of God]]). The wings roots contain the main landing gear. This section of a Viper also contains a number of RCS manoeuvring packs.

The stern section of a Viper is distinctive because of the offset "intakes" mounted just behind the cockpit. The port / starboard "intake" nacelles incorporate small but powerful reverse thrust engines that can quickly counter a Viper's forward momentum in an emergency ([[The Hand of God]]).

==[[TOS Battlestar Galactica|Original Series Viper]]==
[[Image:bsg-viper-tos.jpg|thumb|Starhound Viper (credit: Universal / ABC)]]

The Colonial Starhound Viper was the primary space superiority fighter / attack craft deployed by the Colonials. Capable of atmospheric flight, it was a single-seat craft mounting two laser-torpedo guns as standard, as well as having hardpoints for mounting missiles.

The Viper was originally introduced into Colonial service during the 1,000 yahren war with the Cylons, and was a far superior craft to the [[Cylon Raider#Original Series Raider|Cylon Raider]].

Propulsion was said to be provided by a hybrid tylium / fusion reactor powering three ion engines with a "turbo-boost" facility for very rapid acceleration. For atmospheric flight, the engines are additionally supplied with atmospheric gases as combustibles to conserve on-board fuel supplies. The viper cockpit is fully pressurised, and in the event of catastrophic system damage, the entire module can detach and eject away from the damaged Viper.

==== Dimensions ====
*Length: (approx) 28.5ft
*Wingspan: (approx) 12.5ft

==== Propulsion ====
*3x ion engines mounted aft

==== Aramaments ====
*2 x forward-firing laser-torpedo guns
*4 x two-hundred kiloton Solonite missiles
*2 x thirty megaton Solonite bombs

====Crew====
* Pilot

===Layout===
[[Image:tos-viper-cut.jpg|thumb|Starhound Viper Cutaway (credit: Mike McAdams)]]
The Viper is a long, sleek vehicle that can be spilt into two parts, fore and aft.

* Fore section: comprises the nose back to the cockpit. This contains the targeting dish and sensor array, the forward landing gear; the main avionics and sensor packages, plus the cockpit module
* Stern section: comprises the main engines, reactor systems, turbo-boost injection systems, fuel tanks, wings and vertial stabiliser. The wings themselves contain the laser-torpedo guns and their power packs. Harpoints beneath the wings allow missiles, munitions pods and other items to be rack-mounted.

--[[User:Ernestborg9|Colonial Archivist]] 20:07, 1 Feb 2005 (EST)

==Video Game Variants==
Within the [[Video Game]], three variants of Viper are available: the Mark I, which is designed to be an earlier version of the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|original series]] Viper; the Mark II, which is largely based on the original series Viper, and the Mark III, which is described as "superior to the Mark II in every respect".

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Craft]]
[[Category:Colonial Craft (TOS)]]
[[Category:Colonial Military]]
[[Category:Colonial Military (TOS)]]
[[Category:RDM]]
[[Category:TOS]]
[[Category:Video Game Ships]]

The mystery of 33

2005-05-06T22:31:16Z

MHall: /* The mystery of 33 */

Ron Moore has explained, [[33#Official Statements|"Why 33 minutes?"]]

== 33 in Battlestar Galactica ==
* [[33]] is the name of the first episode
* 33 is the number of minutes between Cylon attacks in the episode [[33]]
* 33 is the largest printed number on the [[Radio Magnetic Indicator]]

== 33 outside Battlestar Galactica ==
* 33 is the number of [[33 Homeric Hymns|Homeric Hymns]]
* 33 is the age of Jesus Christ when he was crucified
* 33 is the number on the back of bottles of Rolling Rock beer
* 33 is the number of the highest degree of Masonry

33

2005-05-06T21:55:03Z

MHall: /* {{from_RDM_blog}}: Why 33 minutes? */

[[Image:bsg-1-01.jpg|thumb|"33" (credit: Sci-Fi Channel)]]

== Overview ==

: Continuing from the events of the [[mini-series]], the [[Battlestar]] [[Galactica]] and the fleet must avoid their [[Cylon]] pursuers, which happen upon them every 33 minutes after each successful [[FTL]] jump. 

: Special Note: This episode marks the premiere of the series.

== Summary ==

* The crew of the [[Battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]'' have been on continuous alert for some 130.35 hours, during which time the fleet has had to make an [[FTL]] jump every 33 minutes to escape their [[Cylon]] pursuers.
* Everyone in the fleet is beginning to feel the strain – particularly [[Baltar, Gaius|Gaius Baltar]], who is also distracted by [[Number Six|Six’s]] repeated conversations about [[Cylon God|God]] having a plan for him, and also her wanting to have his children.
* Vessels in the fleet are also beginning to feel the strain: FTL jump engines and their controlling computers are starting to breakdown or malfunction, requiring the Galactica to linger longer and longer in the Cylon line of fire while the rest of the fleet makes their jumps.
* Following jump number 237, [[Roslin, Laura|President Roslin]] receives word from a Dr. [[Amorak]] aboard the ''[[Olympic Carrier]]'' that he has information concerning how the Cylons overcame Colonial defences.
* Overhearing the conversation, Baltar is worried: he knew Amorak at the [[Defence Ministry]]. As Six points out, Amorak might have information on Baltar.
* There is insufficient time before the next jump to bring Amorak aboard ''[[Colonial One]]'', but Roslin wants to see him directly after the jump has been completed.
* Elsewhere, [[Valerii, Sharon#"Boomer" Valerii|Boomer Valerii]] is having problems accepting her new [[ECO]], [[Crashdown]], and is feeling guilty about leaving [[Agathon, Karl C.|“Helo” Agathon]] on [[Caprica]].
* When the next jump is made, the ''Olympic Carrier'', complete with Dr. Amorak and 1344 other souls, vanishes. Six tries to convince Baltar that it is because God is watching over him.
* Thirty-three minutes later, the fleet is ready to jump, but the Cylons don’t show up. Adama orders a stand-down from the immediate alert, but the fleet is to maintain a readiness to jump, in case the Cylons do show up.
* When Baltar continues to refuse the concept of God, the ''Olympic Carrier'' reappears; [[Adama, William|Adama]] orders the fleet to full alert, fearing the worst. He orders the jump clocks reset in anticipation of the Cylons arriving.
*A [[CAP]] lead by [[Adama, Lee|Lee Adama]] intercepts the liner. Adama orders all communications with the ''Carrier'' jammed and is ordered (through signal lamps) to remain at it's current position. When the ''Carrier'' fails to heed orders not to approach the fleet, tensions rise, and a radiological alarm reveals there are now nuclear weapons on the liner
*As the crisis deepens, the Cylons show up. Adama wants to destroy the liner, but Roslin hesitates to give the order, no one can be sure whether or not there aren’t still 1,345 people aboard the Carrier. Baltar is terrified she won't give the order.
*Six uses the hesitation to push Baltar into “repenting” before God. As soon as he does, Roslin gives the order to destroy the liner. Lee Adama and [[Thrace, Kara|Starbuck]] (reluctantly) open fire, destroying the ship.
*24 hours later, everyone is living with the consequences of their actions. Only [[Keikeya, Billy|Billy]] has a small nugget of good news: at some point in the proceedings, a couple gave birth to a baby.

===On Caprica===
* [[Agathon, Karl C.|Helo]] is on the run in woodland, and has C4-type ordinance he uses to blow up pursuing [[Cylon Warrior|Cylon warriors]]
* However, his 6 days on the run comes to an end when he is captured by the Cylons, after being distracted by the appearance of [[Number Six|Six]], wearing a white rain coat
*He is “rescued” by [[Valerii, Sharon#Caprica Valerii|Valerii]], who shoots Six and then leads Helo away into the woods

--[[User:Ernestborg9|Colonial Archivist]] 06:48, 24 Jan 2005 (EST)

== Questions ==



* Billy reports that the number of survivors is down by 300 - some lost through death from injuries, etc., some "lost" through initial inaccurate counts, and the rest of whom have "disappeared". How can people simply "disappear" in the fleet?
* Does Doctor Amorak truly have something on Baltar's involvement in the holocaust?
* Is Six actually in contact with other Cylons, and thus was involved in the disappearance / reappearance of the ''Olympic Carrier''?

==Blooper Moments==
* During the opening titles, the ''Galactica'' is shown to be making a jump with her flight pods extended - not only that, the shot is from the [[Mini-Series]].
* Billy may be a good PA but he’s crap at maths. “33” starts with 50,298 survivors. He informs Roslin this is in error by 300 = 49,998 survivors. When the Olympic Carrier is destroyed (1345 people), he reduces the total to 47,972 – that’s a reduction of 2026, or 681 people MORE than listed on the ''Carrier''!
* Whatever Roslin taught at school, it wasn’t mathematics – she fails to pick up on Billy’s error.

== Analysis ==

Overall, a good opening episode that cleverly adds to a number of arcs from the mini: is Boomer a Cylon? What is the Six who is interacting with Baltar? Can the Colonials truly escape the shadow of the Cylons?

The opening sequence of shots ending with the Valerii on the Ragnar Anchorage is interesting: is this a hint to the real identity of Boomer on Galactica? Also, is the good-natured teasing between Starbuck and Boomer during the CAP an indication that others have noticed Boomer seems to be handling the lack of sleep a lot better than others. Could this lead to some kind of rumour-mill starting-up about her?

As to Baltar's Six: three possibilities seem to suggest themselves:

*She is a working of his own psyche; a reaction to his betrayal of his people to the Cylons. Certainly, his increasing psychosis in the episode would seem to point to this; but then, he has - like the rest - been five plus days without sleep, and some degree of paranoia is bound to result.
*She is, as she suggested in the mini, an implant in his head and possibly in communication with the Cylons. However, if this is the case, surely the Cylon hunt for the fleet would continue despite the destruction of the Olympic Carrier - as the Cylons would be tracing the fleet through Baltar. Given the humans are to all intents and purposes "on the ropes", it seems odd that they would break off the attack when they have such a clear advantage.
*She could she actually be a complete download of "Six's" personality, captured at the point of destruction of Baltar's home, and now contained in his head, possibily occupying his subconscious, out of contact with her own kind, but able to fully interact with his thoughts and feelings – even manipulate his thoughts and feelings?

Hopefully, these issues will be addressed in time. Meanwhile, the episode builds on some of the relationships established in the mini: Apollo and Starbuck clearly have a past, one that reaches beyond command hierarchies, exhaustion and tempers. The hanger deck confrontation is a valuable byplay not so much for what it says, but for the way in which it is communicated - a large element of non-verbal communication passing between Thrace and Lee Adama prior to her taking the stims.

Similarly, Roslin's mistrust of Adama, as expressed at the end of the mini following his admission that "earth" was a deception on his part, has begun to grow into an edgy respect: she knows full-well that without his leadership, the fleet would not have survived 5 days of repeated FTL jumps - and she is prepared to admit it.

Then there is Adama's relationship with his son. From the scene where they discuss responsibility, it is evident that there is a gulf between them still - one that may well be held open in part by their relative positions aboard the Galactica: Adama is Lee's father and the Officer Commanding the Galactica. While both again appear to want to bridge the gap – the difference in rank still prevents them openly discussing things: hence Lee's act of rebuffing his father's attempt to console him following the shooting of the Olympic Carrier.

Overall the three storylines evident in the episode – escaping the Cylons, Baltar and Six and Helo on Caprica - are cleverly interwoven, with the main storyline; the Baltar / Six relationship in particular intersecting smoothly through the crisis involving the Olympic Carrier, while the Helo subplot is given enough exposure to engage us and deflect attention from the "A" story sufficiently to heighten the drama, without actually interrupting the overall story flow.

Indeed, such is the subtlety of the Helo sub-plot that the questions it raises don't really reveal themselves until a second viewing, and you realise they are related to the central Cylon theme: why does Six ask him if he is alive? He clearly is, and the question is not a reference to either his leg wound or his radiation-induced sickness. Nor is it simply a throwback to her "sister's" first words to the Colonial officer at Armistice Station. It is something that appears to go to the very centre of Cylon reasoning.

Similarly, while it could be over-sensitivity given the amount of time the Valerii on Caprica was on-screen, but one couldn't help but feel she was perhaps a little too human; too familiar with Helo? It seems odd that she is introduced to Helo through the "killing" of the Six construct. Why resort to the "murder" of one of her own? Was this simply to establish her credibility in the eyes of Helo? Could she not have found another way to make contact with Helo? Contrasted with the comments regarding Boomer's heritage back at Galactica, are the writers attempting to imply something? Could it bee that BOTH the Valerii characters are Cylons that believe themselves to be human?

Time will tell - but it will be interesting to see how the Helo/Valerii/Caprica arc is followed-up.

But, in discussing the role of Cylon agents, there is a potentially interesting throwaway comment in this episode that might be an indication that something is amiss in the fleet: in discussing the number of survivors, Roslin asks why the total has dropped by 300. Billy responds that some over-counts were made (understandable), that there have been deaths from wounds (possibly people picked up from the 12 colonies), and some seem to have simply "disappeared" during the last Cylon attack (witnessed prior to jump 237).

"Disappeared"? How? No ships were destroyed during the attack / jump, so how do people just "disappear"? Again, is this simply an error in the script, or are the writers trying to point at something deeper?

All that said, the episode isn't without some flaws.

===Nit-picks===

*Why is Boomer's Raptor launched alongside Apollo's Vipers for what everyone is expecting to be an interdiction exercise against Cylon Raiders? It is a complete departure from previous actions: in the mini, CAG ordered Boomer to get her Raptor out of the way as his squadron went into to face the Cylon Raiders; at Ragnar, the Raptors weren't deployed against incoming Raiders, nor where they in evidence prior to jump 237 at the start of this episode. It is unclear whether Raptors are armed, or whether they would be effectively in an electronic warfare capability against Raiders, but the sudden presence of a Raptor in a Viper interdiction flight smacks of being a somewhat clumsy means of meeting the needs of the plot: obviously, the writers wanted Boomer there to handle the communications with Olympic Carrier & so heighten the perceived tension.

*The 9/11 scene is, sadly, something of a misplaced element. Yes, 9/11 is a horror that stunned the world, and will always rightfully have a place in the memories of all Americans, but the use of a scene that so closely mirrors the aftermath of the site around the World Trade Centre to try and convey the sense of loss the Colonials are feeling is somewhat heavy-handed. More should have been done to impart this to the audience back in the mini (where Cylon strikes on the Colonial worlds were restricted to a few scenes of Caprica, and even then the outright and inevitable destruction was barely shown).

*Similarly, the failure to openly resolve the issue of whether or not 1345 people were aboard the Olympic Carrier weakens the story. Indeed, Apollo's flyby of the ship is suggestive that she indeed wasn't carrying anyone any more - thus removing our feelings of horror one step further from the drama being played out on screen. In opting to remain ambiguous about the presence of humans aboard the ship, the writers very much weaken the entire “should we / shouldn’t we” argument as to whether the Colonials can fire on and destroy the ship. Should they have shown people clinging to the windows of the Carrier, staring back at Apollo in helplessness as he made his final fly-by? Perhaps; perhaps not - but out emotions would have been better engaged if we had at least seen some evidence that lives were going to be destroyed along with the Olympic Carrier.

*A final nit-pick comes with the reminder of Tigh's alcoholism. The by-play here didn't entirely fit, and came across as a clumsy reminder that the writers hadn't forgotten about Tigh's condition and would possibly be returning to it in the future. Better to have kept the focus on Adama's comments regarding driving and managing the crew.

However, all this said, "33" serves as an excellent opening episode: the pacing is smooth, the storylines cleverly interwoven and combined without stepping on one another, and there are no hurried or harried resolutions. Arcs established in the mini are extended and new interactions given birth.

--[[User:Ernestborg9|Colonial Archivist]] 11:59, 6 Jan 2005 (EST)

Despite [[RDM]]s comments below that the number "33" was chosen at random, 33 is quite a significant number and adds complexity to this episode, whether intentionally or not. 33 was praised by the Freemasons as one of their "significant numbers", and frequently appeared in their dogma. Most importantly, 33 is commonly given as the age of Jesus Christ at his corporeal death. This is referenced in many other artistic works (such as the Smashing Pumpkins song "Thirty-Three"), and is hard to ignore in this case, particularly given the strong religious themes in Battlestar Galactica's Universe.

== Notes ==

* Continuous jumping badly affects the FTL drives and management systems aboard Colonial vessels
* The Cylons have the same ability to undertake highly-accurate FTL jumps as the Colonials: 238 times they’ve managed to jump to the Colonial fleet and arrive with precise momentum and trajectory to be able to close the distance and launch an attack
* There are 5,251 people in the fleet from Sagittaron

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

''Discussion on Stims between Lee & Kara''

'''Lee:''' "Hey, um, did you see the note from the XO?" 
'''Kara:''' "I saw it. No way." 
'''Lee:''' "Kara, everyone else--" 
'''Kara:''' "I don't fly with stims. They fudge with your reflexes, reaction time." 
'''Lee:''' "C'mon Kara, give me a break. Just--" 
'''Kara:''' "Why are we arguing about this?" 
'''Lee:''' "I have no idea." 
'''Kara:''' "Neither do I. You're the [[CAG]], act like one." 
'''Lee:''' "What does that mean?" 
'''Kara:''' "It means that you're still acting like everyone's best friend. We're not friends. You're the CAG. (beat) 'Be careful out there?' Our job isn't to be careful, it's to shoot fraking [[Cylons]] out of the sky. 'Good Hunting' is what you say. And one of your idiot pilots is acting like a child and refusing to take her pills. So she either says 'Yes, sir' and obeys a direct order, or you smack her in the mouth and drag her sorry ass to sickbay and you make her take those pills." 
(beat; Lee bursts out with a chortle) 
'''Lee:''' "Well, I'm glad I'm not working for you." 
'''Kara:''' "Damn right you're glad." 
'''Lee:''' "So do I have to smack you in the mouth, Lieutenant?" 
'''Kara:''' "No sir, I'll take my pills." 

== Official Statements ==




=== {{from_RDM_blog}}: Why 33 minutes? ===

:The truth is, there's no real answer. It's just a random number that felt right when I came up with the idea that our people were under continuous, relentless attack since the end of the pilot. I wanted it to be a short interval, just long enough for them to grab a bite to eat, jump in the shower and maybe try to catch a catnap before dragging themselves back to their duty stations and begin the whole tedious, terrifying ordeal all over again.

:A deeper truth is, I was never interested in coming up with an explanation for Why? Never. I mean, I suppose I could've come up with a sufficiently important-sounding bit of technobabble that would've made sense (you see, the [[Cylon]] double-talk sensors tracking the [[Olympic Carrier]]'s nonsense drive signature needed 15 minutes to relay the made-up data wave through the pretend continuum, then the Cylon navigational hyper silly system needed another 10 minutes to recalculate the flux capacitor, etc.) but what would that have really added to the drama? How does explaining that 33 minute interval help our understanding of [[Laura Roslin|Laura]]'s terrible moment of decision, or bring us to any greater knowledge of [[Dualla]]'s search for her missing family and friends, or yield insight into [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]]'s morally shattered psyche?

:It doesn't, of course. The answer, however artfully it may (or may not) have been crafted can only subtract from the experience we have in watching the episode. Not knowing the how's or why's of the Cylon attack puts us in the same seat as the characters we're watching. They're in the dark, and we're in the dark. The relentless attack is unfathomable in its origin and unstoppable in its execution. It's mortality coming at you on a loop. If you only had 33 minutes before the next time you could die, what would you do? And what about the time after that? And the time after that? At a certain point, you stop caring about why it's happening, all you know is that it is happening, and it's happening to you.

:So [[the mystery of 33]] will be permanent on this show. No explanation, not even the attempt. Let it just be a number that seemed like an eternity for five long days on the [[battlestar]] [[Galactica]].

=== {{from_RDM_blog}}: Note on [["Lest We Forget"]] ===

:"It's probably been asked before, but I'm curious as to whom is in the picture in the Viper Pilot's briefing room, facing away from the camera . . . the one the pilots, including [[Adama, William|Commander Adama]], touch when they enter and leave? This is touching, and is a wonderful human element to the story. So who is it?"

:There was a scene cut from [[33|"33"]] where we saw [[Roslin, Laura|Laura]] being given her copy of the photo along with a card that said it was taken on the roof of the capitol building on Aerilon during the attack. The photo was inspired by the famous shot of the fire-fighters raising the flag at Ground Zero that became iconic. I thought the Colonies would have their own version of this -- a snapshot taken in the moment that becomes a symbol of the day they can never forget and of all they had lost. The photo itself is of a soldier falling to his knees (possibly shot or simply overcome by emotion) as he stands on the rooftop over looking the devastation of his city, while the Colonial flag waves at the edge of frame. The inscription below the photo on Laura's plaque reads, [["Lest We Forget"]] in itself a reference to the inscription on the watch presented to John Wayne's character in "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon."

=== Comments from the Cast ===

*"Insomnia. Nobody has slept. Everyone's just coming to terms with the fact that they have lost everybody that they've loved or relate to." -- [[Jamie Bamber]], [http://scifi.com/battlestar/bts/video/mov/video_06_320.mov]

*"It was a hard episode, because, you just had to basically fall apart." -- [[Katee Sackhoff]], [http://scifi.com/battlestar/bts/video/mov/video_06_320.mov]

*"Episode 1 is extremely docu-style because the characters haven't actually slept for five days (sic) and they have been running from the Cylons for the 250th time. And its very stressful and they're about to lose the plot completely because of sleep deprivation." -- [[Michael Rymer]], [http://scifi.com/battlestar/bts/video/mov/video_06_320.mov]

== Statistics ==



=== Guest Stars ===


*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Alonso+Oyarzun Alonso Oyarzun] as [[Socinus]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Nicki+Clyne Nicki Clyne] as [[Cally]]



=== Writing & Direction ===

*Written by {{RDM|33}}
*Directed by {{Michael Rymer|33}}




=== Production Notes ===

*Series: 1 (2004 / 2005)
*Production Number: 1.01
*Airdate Order: 1 (of 13)

=== First Run Air Dates & Releases ===

*UK Airdate: 18 October 2004 (Sky One)
*US Airdate: 14 January 2005 (Sci-Fi Channel)
*DVD Release: 28 March 2005 (UK)

{{Episode List}}

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

The Homeric Hymns

2005-05-06T21:48:40Z

MHall:

The Homeric Hymns are 33 verses to various characters from Greek mythology.

==Homeric Hymns==
* I. To Dionysus
* II. To Demeter
* III. To Apollo
* IV. To Hermes
* V. To Aphrodite
* VI. To Aphrodite
* VII. To Dionysus
* VIII. To Ares
* IX. To Artemis
* X. To Aphrodite
* XI. To Athena
* XII. To Hera
* XIII. To Demeter
* XIV. To the Mother of the Gods
* XV. To Heracles the Lion-Hearted
* XVI. To Asclepius
* XVII. To Dioscuri
* XVIII. To Hermes
* XIX. To Pan
* XX. To Hephaestus
* XXI. To Apollo
* XXII. To Poseidon
* XXIII. To the Son of Cronos, Most High
* XXIV. To Hestia
* XXV. To the Muses and Apollo
* XXVI. To Dionysus
* XXVII. To Artemis
* XXVIII. To Athena
* XXIX. To Hestia
* XXX. To Earth the Mother of All
* XXXI. To Helios
* XXXII. To Selene
* XXXIII. To the Dioscuri

==External link==
*[http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Hesiod/hymns.html Text of the Homeric Hymns] (from Berkeley Sunsite)

The Homeric Hymns

2005-05-06T21:46:55Z

MHall:

The Homeric Hymns are 33 verses to various Greek gods.

==Homeric Hymns==
* I. To Dionysus
* II. To Demeter
* III. To Apollo
* IV. To Hermes
* V. To Aphrodite
* VI. To Aphrodite
* VII. To Dionysus
* VIII. To Ares
* IX. To Artemis
* X. To Aphrodite
* XI. To Athena
* XII. To Hera
* XIII. To Demeter
* XIV. To the Mother of the Gods
* XV. To Heracles the Lion-Hearted
* XVI. To Asclepius
* XVII. To Dioscuri
* XVIII. To Hermes
* XIX. To Pan
* XX. To Hephaestus
* XXI. To Apollo
* XXII. To Poseidon
* XXIII. To the Son of Cronos, Most High
* XXIV. To Hestia
* XXV. To the Muses and Apollo
* XXVI. To Dionysus
* XXVII. To Artemis
* XXVIII. To Athena
* XXIX. To Hestia
* XXX. To Earth the Mother of All
* XXXI. To Helios
* XXXII. To Selene
* XXXIII. To the Dioscuri

==External link==
*[http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Hesiod/hymns.html Text of the Homeric Hymns] (from Berkeley Sunsite)

The Homeric Hymns

2005-05-06T21:40:54Z

MHall:

The Homeric Hymns are 33 verses written by Homer to various Greek gods.

==Homeric Hymns==
* I. To Dionysus
* II. To Demeter
* III. To Apollo
* IV. To Hermes
* V. To Aphrodite
* VI. To Aphrodite
* VII. To Dionysus
* VIII. To Ares
* IX. To Artemis
* X. To Aphrodite
* XI. To Athena
* XII. To Hera
* XIII. To Demeter
* XIV. To the Mother of the Gods
* XV. To Heracles the Lion-Hearted
* XVI. To Asclepius
* XVII. To Dioscuri
* XVIII. To Hermes
* XIX. To Pan
* XX. To Hephaestus
* XXI. To Apollo
* XXII. To Poseidon
* XXIII. To the Son of Cronos, Most High
* XXIV. To Hestia
* XXV. To the Muses and Apollo
* XXVI. To Dionysus
* XXVII. To Artemis
* XXVIII. To Athena
* XXIX. To Hestia
* XXX. To Earth the Mother of All
* XXXI. To Helios
* XXXII. To Selene
* XXXIII. To the Dioscuri

The Homeric Hymns

2005-05-06T21:39:20Z

MHall:

The Homeric Hymns are 33 verses written by Homer to various Greek gods.

==Homeric Hymns==
* I. To Dionysus
* II. To Demeter
* III. To Apollo
* IV. To Hermes
* V. To Aphrodite
* VI. To Aphrodite
* VII. To Dionysus
* VIII. To Ares
* IX. To Artemis
* X. To Aphrodite
* XI. To Athena
* XII. To Hera
* XIII. To Demeter
* XIV. To the Mother of the Gods
* XV. To Heracles the Lion-Hearted
* XVI. To Asclepius
* XVII. To Dioscuri
* XVIII. To Hermes
* XIX. To Pan
* XX. To Hephaestus
* XXI. To Apollo
* XXII. To Poseidon
* XXIII. To the Son of Cronos, Most High
* XXIV. To Hestia
XXV. To the Muses and Apollo
XXVI. To Dionysus
XXVII. To Artemis
XXVIII. To Athena
XXIX. To Hestia
XXX. To Earth the Mother of All
XXXI. To Helios
XXXII. To Selene
XXXIII. To the Dioscuri

The Homeric Hymns

2005-05-06T21:36:41Z

MHall:

The Homeric Hymns are 33 verses written by Homer to various Greek gods:

* I. To Dionysus
* II. To Demeter
* III. To Apollo
* IV. To Hermes
* V. To Aphrodite
* VI. To Aphrodite
* VII. To Dionysus
* VIII. To Ares
* IX. To Artemis
* X. To Aphrodite
* XI. To Athena
* XII. To Hera
* XIII. To Demeter
* XIV. To the Mother of the Gods
* XV. To Heracles the Lion-Hearted
* XVI. To Asclepius
* XVII. To Dioscuri
* XVIII. To Hermes
* XIX. To Pan
* XX. To Hephaestus
* XXI. To Apollo
* XXII. To Poseidon
* XXIII. To the Son of Cronos, Most High
* XXIV. To Hestia
XXV. To the Muses and Apollo
XXVI. To Dionysus
XXVII. To Artemis
XXVIII. To Athena
XXIX. To Hestia
XXX. To Earth the Mother of All
XXXI. To Helios
XXXII. To Selene
XXXIII. To the Dioscuri

The Homeric Hymns

2005-05-06T21:33:17Z

MHall: The Homeric Hymns contain many Greek myths

The Homeric Hymns are 33 verses written by Homer to various Greek gods:

I. To Dionysus
II. To Demeter
III. To Apollo
IV. To Hermes
V. To Aphrodite
VI. To Aphrodite
VII. To Dionysus
VIII. To Ares
IX. To Artemis
X. To Aphrodite
XI. To Athena
XII. To Hera
XIII. To Demeter
XIV. To the Mother of the Gods
XV. To Heracles the Lion-Hearted
XVI. To Asclepius
XVII. To Dioscuri
XVIII. To Hermes
XIX. To Pan
XX. To Hephaestus
XXI. To Apollo
XXII. To Poseidon
XXIII. To the Son of Cronos, Most High
XXIV. To Hestia
XXV. To the Muses and Apollo
XXVI. To Dionysus
XXVII. To Artemis
XXVIII. To Athena
XXIX. To Hestia
XXX. To Earth the Mother of All
XXXI. To Helios
XXXII. To Selene
XXXIII. To the Dioscuri