Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:The Twelve Colonies of Kobol/Archive3

2006-11-20T21:37:19Z

LucentPhoenix: /* Residence vs. Tribe */

==Question==

Do we know that the colonies are necessarily on 12 worlds? Can someone find a reference? It's clear that virgon and caprica are in the same star system, and that each colony can have more than one city, (dephi, in caprica), but is there some reason why two colonies can't be on the same planet?

==Merge proposal==

This article, and the articles for each of the Twelve Colonies, are all very short, and I don't see any of them expanding substantially in the near future. I think it would make for a nice looking, meaty article if we merged in each of the individual colony articles with this one under first-level headings. How say you all? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:50, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I know this looks weird and kind of dumb. I'm still fiddling. It's easy to revert if the whole thing ends up being too hideous to bear. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:17, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

[[image:Banner_unknown1.gif|left|75px]][[image:Banner_unknown2.gif|right|75px]]
: I like the idea and whats up now. If we knew more about each colony, it would look nicer, but until then I think this is fine. Now... What to do with these other two banners? Now, the two colonies without banners are Leo and Aquarius, the lion and the water-bearer. Both of these symbols could be a water-bearer, I guess, but I think the black and white one looks like he has whisters, there and that shape at the top looks more ear-like. That would leave the blue and red one to be the water bearer, which I think makes sense enough. Think we could drop those in with a note as to their speculative nature, or best not to? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:27, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::I'm leaving this one up to [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]], our resident flag-hunter. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The two colonies without banners is Aquarius and whatever the colonial name is for Libra. I saw in the mini-series they mentioned a colony called "ICON" alongside of "PICON" so I'm a little weirded out. As for Leonis, that flag has been found. I did a picture search in google for the zodiac's constellation and found the flag's symbol looked exactly like what I have designated. I can't remember, but I believe the constellation for Libra looked quite similar to the black one. Since we don't yet know as of yet what is the name for the Libra colony, I have left it blank. [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]

:At least we know it isn't Ophiuchi or something. Roslin identifies Libra in the Tomb of Athena map room, although she doesn't give its modern name. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:59, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Realizing that it's still being worked on, it looks awful right now. You can't tell which banner goes to which colony, for one thing. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 08:30, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Personally, I don't really like the combination of all 12 colonies together either since there is no set border and down the road we will have pictures relating to each colony. This will make it slower to download. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 12:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The problem, in my opinion, is that there's little to do at the main article other than simply list the colonies, and the majority of the individual colonies are stub-like in length. As for images, Caprica is the only planet we've seen thus far and probably the only one we're likely to see (unless we get Scorpion in a flashback in Pegasus or something). One thing we can do, if it becomes necessary, is link to full-length articles from just underneath the first-level headings.

:As for the banners, I agree that they could be confusing but I rather like them right now. Do either of you think it coudl be re-arranged in a better manner (maybe if they didn't alternate sides? But then there'd be a lot more wasted space)? Or is it a lost cause in your opinions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:20, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::Yeah, you could try putting all the banners on the right. See how it looks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 14:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::There, that's what they look like right-aligned. Frankly, I think they look better alternating. I don't find it confusing, and the wasted space bugs me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::Hate to say it, but I don't like it at all. The banners overlap with the previous colony's "box", there are no clear markers indicating where one section begins and another ends, it just looks bad. (Part of the problem is that we don't have much information about many of the colonies at this point.) --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:07, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::It'd be better if we could insert a line across the entire page, and have the colony name under that line, along with the banner on the right. Then each colony would have a neat, easily readable section. I don't know if Wiki markup is capable of that though. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:10, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::I still think it's a better option than thirteen articles that are completely insubstantial on their own. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I added captions to some of the banners, and in the process deleted some of the <nowiki><div></nowiki> markup. Wikipedia recommends against using HTML ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_markup_with_HTML]), and I've been trying to learn from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_image_syntax Extended image syntax] page. I can't figure out why a new section like <nowiki>==Caprica==</nowiki> doesn't appear on the same level as its banner. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:09, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:Ah ha! The wonders of '''<nowiki> </nowiki>'''! What do you guys think of the formatting now? --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:28, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::My HTML/CSS was not used lightly. That's really the one way to get the banners at the section heading level as I did. Frankly this seems like a more cumbersome version of my right-aligned attempt. I really dislike the caption boxes, too.
::I have a new idea: Rather than use the (rather long) banners, we can grab the icons from each, along with the background colors, and use them. I've created nine high-resolution versions from QuintusCinna's originals, which you can link to below:
::[http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/aerelon.png Aerelon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/canceron.png Canceron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/caprica.png Caprica], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/gemenon.png Gemenon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/picon.png Picon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/sagittaron.png Sagittaron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpion.png Scorpion], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/tauron.png Tauron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/virgon.png Virgon]
::These could be scaled down to almost any size and still look nice. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:35, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Without caption boxes, it's not clear what the banners are. I know it seems self-explanatory to us, but for someone who's never seen them before, it's not. I'll take a look at the icons in a bit. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 17:03, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I find repeating "This is the Banner of X" to be tedious, and the red background to be jarring. Couldn't we simply note that the banner/icon/flag/colors of the colony is provided to the right? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:06, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Peter. You've saved us all. As I said earlier, I liked it when the banner appeared to be hanging from the red line under its colony's name. I share Peter's dislike for tons of white space and alternating the sides seemed to create the least of that. However, if we just had the emblem and colors from each flag, we could do it below the red line as Fang seems to like, and not have this huge, long graphic. Maybe we can then link the full banner pics and, if we get enough information that a given colony's article wouldn't be a stub, we can display it there. Does all that make sense? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I like it with banners to right, with titling, albeit a little redundant. Not sure how to deal with the "white space" of many areas, but we're really not going to get them filled until we get more data, so that is that. I feel it's informative enough as it stands, but I'll leave the formatting arguments alone. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:52, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

==Which flag is which?==
A close viewing of [[Colonial Day]] indicates that the flag currently labeled as [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]] belongs to Safiya Sanne's seat - either Picon or Leonis; and that the black flag belongs to Robin Wenutu's seat (Canceron), and that VIrgon's flag is a white field with a green inner stripe and yellow outer stripe. I'm curious as to how QuintusCinna came to his conclusion that the delegates aren't seated at their apprporiate flags, since I don't know any other evidence linking particular flags to colonies. I guess Scorpion is pretty obvious, though. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:34, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Don't trust the banners lining up with those they represent in [[Colonial Day]]. The reason I say this is that [[Tom Zarek]] is in one area of the room and his very obvious banner for Sagitarron is completely in another area. This is the same for Virgon's banner and their representative. There are 3 different questions I carry thanks to the shows I have watched. In the mini-series we see the banners are in this order from left to right: [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Virgon|Virgon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], Scorpion, Aquaria(?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]], Libra (?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Sagittaron|Sagittaron]], [[Canceron]] (?), [[Leonis]]. Is this in the order that the colonies signed the unification treaty or is the order for the flags random or is it in the order they were nuked? Though I am sure the producers, directors, and such just put them up in random order, it is now a sense of fact for the show. If we were to believe they were placed up there, the banners must be up there in some order that is according to military protocol for flag bearing. In Colonial Day I add 2 more questions. We see that the banners are behind the delegates in a different order than in the mini-series. This means they were either a) put up randomly or b) have a separate purpose than those shown at the end of the mini-series (nuked, treaty order, or other). Then we see that the delegates are put in a different order than the banners behind them. The Gemenon delegate is clearly seen toward the middle and the Gemenon flag is clearly in a different area. The same questions come up for the delegates: are they randomly placed or is there reason. It's not alphabetical, and placements of delegates and banners in every society is always in some sort of traditional order. I hope that the Battlestar Galactica producers, writers, and such will be able to answer this though I suspect they won't because they have REAL lives.

As for the Picon flag, the constellation looks quite similar to the picon banner and the same goes for Tauron's with Taurus. I have no doubt with those. The Libra's icon can be seen in this picture http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HorseAstrology/AstrologySymbol.gif 2 clockwise from Sagittarius.
--[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 1:12, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

==New Icons==
What do you think? We might consider making them smaller and removing the image frame and caption, but I'd also be happy leaving them as they are. It's nice to have a place to note that some of the symbols are only tentatively identified with the colonies in question. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:It looks fine. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 09:11, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I like 'em. I'd say smaller, though. Of course... I have my thumb settings to 300px so that screen shots are large enough to be intelligible, so smaller to me would be about 150px or 100px. I also like alternating for balance, but that's just me. I alternate right a left in other articles, too. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:21, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

I have a set of colonial glyphs that were lifted from a copy of the voting ballots used in Lay Down Your Burdens Pt1. I can upload both the cap of the ballot and the vector graphics file of the glyphs. I've already released the glyphs for public use, so I have no problem with their being used here. The ballot image I have has Baltar's name blurred out, as that was a spoiler at the time the image was released. The image orginally came from the Reproduction Props Forum, where a member got hold of one of the actual props used in the episode. --[[User:Scotchfairy|Scotchfairy]] 14:54, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

:Thanks for the offer. It would be nice to get a look at them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:16, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
::Okay, I've uploaded the four jpgs I have of the voting ballot. They still reside on my server at the moment. If you decide to include them in the wiki, I'll upload them to the database. 
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotSm.jpg Small Image of Ballot Front]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotFront.jpg Large Image of Ballot Front]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotBack.jpg Large Image of Ballot Back]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotTop.jpg Very Large Image of Ballot Top]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/ColonialGlyphs.gif My version of the colonial glyphs (gif)]
:: If you want to play with the Photoshop custom shapes file, it's [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/LeesBSGshapes.csh.zip here (zip)]. [[User:Scotchfairy|Scotchfairy]] 00:25, 2 August 2006 (CDT)

==Residence vs. Tribe==

I think there's a difference between "where a character currently makes their residence" and "what colony they are from". I think "what colony they are from" means "what ''tribe''" they are. For example, Dualla could have been away from Sagittaron for years and lived on another Colony, but she's still from the Sagittaron tribe. In "Bastille Day", she describes herself as "a Sagittaron", not "someone ''from'' Sagittaron".

Anyway, I also think that non-canonical information from SkyOne website should not be used in assuming Stabuck may be from Picon, not Caprica. We should wait until this is said on either the Scifi.com official site, or on screen.
--Ricimer, 16 Sept, 2005

:Actually, Dee did say "I'm from Sagittaron". [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:56, 10 July 2006 (CDT)

::I agree with the original sentiment. Under the [[The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29#Natives_2|Caprica Natives]] section, it lists Gaius Baltar, but then clearly states "(Born on Sagittaron)." If that is the case, then he is a native of ... drumroll please ... '''Sagittaron''', not Caprica. He may have resided there, but he was a Sagitton.

::I think this should be changed, but didn't want to just change it without some discussion. Unless there is a good reason given, though, I'm going to make the change. /[[User:LucentPhoenix|LucentPhoenix]] 08:26, 20 November 2006 (CST)

:::The source for Baltar's saggitaron origin was an old SkyOne biography which we no longer consider to be a credible source. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:58, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::::Ah.... alright, then. If it's no longer considered credible, we should probably remove the reference from the Caprica Native page, then, shouldn't we? --[[User:LucentPhoenix|LucentPhoenix]] 15:37, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==Outposts==

Ricimer wrote: ''The Colonials actually expanded their sphere of influence over time beyond the original Twelve Colonies to include several outposts, bases, and mining colonies (such as [[Troy]]) in other systems ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html| RDM, January 30, 2005]), though they were apparently minor extensions of the original Twelve Colonies rather than independently functioning worlds in their own right, and when the Cylons overwhelmed the Twelve Colonies themselves no mention is even explicity made about these minor worlds, seeming to take it as a given that the destruction of the Twelve Colonies would equal the destruction of humanity, and that these outposts were not significant enough to pose any challenge to the Cylon fleet.''

RDM's actual comments are:

:Q: "Did the colonies have outposts, bases, or trade partners outside of the 12 colonies. Did they even explore other systems. The colonies could have had observatories, listening posts, or even scientific research teams exploring other planets beyond the colonial system(s). They could encounter any of these which could lead to supplies, raw materials, food, fuel etc. "

:RDM: I think that's probably true, but part of our premise is that the fleet has Jumped far out into unexplored space in an effort to elude the Cylons, so we won't be encountered any other outposts or colonies.

I think that's a very weak confirmation, and if we're going to include it here, it should reflect the vagueness of RDM's actual comment. I have replaced it with the following:

:Ronald D. Moore has suggested that the Colonies probably maintained some minor observatories and listening posts in outlying star systems, but it is unlikely that ''Galactica'' will encounter them in the course of the series. ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html#a000016|RDM, January 30, 2005])

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 15 December 2005 (EST)

==Scorpion vs. Scorpia==

At present, we have a name card from "[[Colonial Day]]" and the name of the [[Scorpia Traveler]] in favor of "Scorpia", and the [[Scorpion Fleet Shipyards]] in favor of "Scorpion". Ricimer, if you want to make a case for "Scorpion" over "Scorpia", you ''must'' cite an episode quote, and I will not produce it for you. Your uncited revisions are anathema to our goal of accuracy. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:34, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:I am sorry, I was in a hurry to get out and didn't have time to wip out my copy of the series companion. On p.86 of "Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion", by David Bassom, there is an "''early'' concept sketch of the flags of the Twele Colonies"; On this, it lists the names "Scorpia", but also "Libran", and "Aquarion". "[[Colonial Day]]" established that these two Colonies are in fact named "Libra" and "Aquaria", in dialog, etc. This evidence has led me to believe that "Scorpia" was amongst some early ideas for Colony names that were thrown around in the early stages of production, but which were later changed; however, the art and props department wasn't notified of the switch, or made a mistake, etc. I'm also inclined to this line of thinking because the props in this scene feature several now-infamous goofs, such as the switcheroo between Canceron, Picon, Leonis, etc., etc. As for the evidence from "Scorpia Traveler", there's also a "Gemini" ship, as well as mispelling etc. which have led me to the belief that certain ship names are just meant for asthetic value and do not necessarily reflect the actual name of their home Colony. In "Home, Part II" it was established that the Colonies used to have "ancient names" which align more closely to the signs of the Zodiac, but which over the millenia have drifted away into their present form. Perhaps some ship captains just felt like naming their vessels after the more ancient names. I don't know. But the main points remain: A) Ship names aren't very reliable as an information source, B) this scene had many goofs in it, C) the official companion shows that this was an early name thrown around, but later abandoned, and several of these early names have been disproven by this point. Therefore, I think "Scorpion Fleet Shipyards", the first ''prominent'' mention of Scorpion/Scorpia, taken with the above evidence, proves that the true name of the Colony is "Scorpion". What's everyone else's consensus? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:24, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I'm with Ricimer on this one.--Zareck Rocks 15:04, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I agree with Ricimer, as Cain's mention of the "scorpion fleet shipyards" is the only canonical reference to place when it comes to the scorpio-related colony. It has also been shown, as Ricimer mentions above, that the ship names seem to be variations of the colony names i.e. [[Gemenon Taveller]] and the [[Gemini]]. So we can't necessarily glean the name of the scorpio-related colony from the [[Scorpia Traveller]], for there may also be a Scorpion Traveller.
::However, unless someone can verify this with subtitles, Cain could be saying Scorpi''an'' fleet shipyards, rather than Scorpi''on'', thereby inferring that the colony name is Scorpia (I dare to speculate that the Caprica would have it's own Caprican fleet shipyards(if it did indeed have shipyards)). I don't have the DVDs, as they're not yet available in Canada, but someone should really check this, it could answer this question --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 16:20, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::I've grepped the TwizTV logs, and the Scorpia/Scorpion colony has never been referred to apart from the instances we've already listed. So, here's what that means:
:::#We have a mention of the "Scorpia Traveler", which matches the "Gemenon Traveler". "Freighter Gemini" is a TOS reference.
:::#We have a comment that might be the "Scorpion" shipyards, or the "Scorpian" shipyards.
:::#We have a clear and readable screenshot of the name of the colony.
:::We should not "correct" the name of the colony to what we think it "should" be, when we have unequivocal evidence staring us in the face. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::I'm sorry, but it doesn't really seem like the above evidence is "unequivocal". Thankfully, I think "Resurrection Ship" will make further mention of ''Pegasus' '' flight from the shipyards, and we will probably hear the name again. Best to wait until then. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:05, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::Let me clarify. We have at least seen "Scorpia" spelled out. We have never even ''heard'' "Scorpion", except in a context that might easily have been "Scorpian". In my opinion, the two options here are "Scorpia" or "We don't know". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::Wait a minute, someone out there has got to have the DVD set of the second season, we should be able to determine the definitive name of the scorpio colony from that. Although, I suppose, Peter, that you're suggesting we leave it at Scorpia until someone can check the subtitles. That sounds fine with me. --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 22:56, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::How will that tell us definitively? It was only mentioned in "Pegasus", in the ambiguous dialogue mentioned above. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:00, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::Like I said, we stand a good chance of hearing it again in the very next two episodes, so I suggest we leave things as they are, and reach a final decision after "Resurrection Ship, Part II". Although we could get subtitles from the DVD, subtitles can be notoriously innaccurate when it comes to the finer points of spelling, i.e. Scorpion vs. Scorpian. Perhaps we could rewatch Pegasus, and check the inflection that Michelle Forbes uses; I ''think'' she clearly said "-ion" (as opposed to "-ian"). I'll check again; however, even hearing the dialog personally, I doubt this will give a DEFINATIVE answer in ANY form as the actress could have been just slurring it. I don't know. Well, I'll check for the sake of checking. Again, I think we should "wait and see" on this one. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:11, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::I just watched the episode and the subtitles (however inaccurate) do say "Scorpion." It does sound like Forbes says more of an -ion than -ian. Just my two cents. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:30, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Thank you Talos. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:04, 26 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Scorpion would be pronounced with the full vowel "{{IPA|piɑn}}, while "Scorpian" would use a reduced vowel, {{IPA|piən}} or {{IPA|piɨn}}. The latter is what I hear, although Ricimer is right that it could just be "slurring". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:09, 26 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::::I've isolated Michelle Forbes's pronunciation of "Scorpi_n" and uploaded it [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpian.wav here]. Unfortunately, the last syllable is basically whispered and cannot be analyzed for vowel formants. It does sound very reduced to me, however. This is not usually the case for Picon, Gemenon, etc. which are almost always realized with full vowels.
:::::::::::Note, by the way, that the ''animal'' spelled "Scorpion" would be pronounced the same as the adjective "Scorpian", while a colony called Scorpion would be pronounced "Skor-pee-on". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:05, 28 December 2005 (EST)

Final call for objections before I move the relevant articles. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:23, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

== Location ==

I didn't want to get into a revert war, so... How, exactly, are the colonies' positions indicated in the Tomb of Athena? I just watched that ep last night and I don't remember any arrows or name tags... If the theory is that the colonies are inside the constellation that shares their name, then I think I'll have to disagree. Not possible. The zodiac constellations are spread about in our sky in a circle, meaning they're not very near each other at all (so if "the Colonies" can be considered some single area of space that's small enough to go from one end to another inside months they need to be closer than a large ring of space encircling Earth) and all the stars in a constellation aren't even necessarily near each other. --[[User:Day|Day]] 10:42, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I don't think the positions of the Twelve Colonies are indicated at all by the tomb of Athena. It's just a map to Earth (Earth being the only spot where those constellations would appear in that configuration). It is interesting that would mean that there isn't a direct correlation between the constellations and the colonies that they are named after... (other than as a rememberance of where they came from, kind of). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:50, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:The fact of the matter is that the Tomb of Athena holographic map to Earth shows constellations made of the symbols of the Twelve Tribees/Colonies; these constellations are '''entirely arbitrary'''; that is, they were designated purely because they resemble the symbols of the Colonies; each planet of the 12 is in ''no way'' in each constellation. Besides, that would mean they'd often end up in separate galaxies. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::Well, no, not separate galaxies, but further apart from each other than each is from earth. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:34, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::: My point exactly, Peter. Well said. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:05, 5 January 2006 (EST)

Can we take the part about all the colonies orbiting the same star out of the article? I think it's pretty clear that they're all separate systems, unless someone has different information. --[[User:Bahamut|Bahamut]] 02:42, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:Why do you think that's clear? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:59, 12 March 2006 (CST)

::Mostly because of the use of FTL technology, but also because of the improbability of a star having twelve planets that can support human life. It's discussed elsewhere in the Wiki that it's likely they're all separate systems. Maybe instead of taking it out altogether we should add a caveat about how it's disputed or at least link to the other discussion? --[[User:Bahamut|Bahamut]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Upon re-watching the Miniseries (IMHO anyway) all references are given as hours from caprica, but when the war alert first goes off and Cmdr Adama asks to "scan the system" (circa 48mins in) the report is given that "Now, looks like the main fight is shaping up over here near Virgon's orbit" and a few lines latter "If we can keep Virgon between us and the battle". Which to me means that Virgon, Caprica and Ragnar (a gas giant) are all in the same solar system. thoughts anyone? [[User:Pickle UK|Pickle UK]] 00:45, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:I think this is a settled issue. From Moore's blog, [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/#a000016 30 January 2005]:
::Does it make sense that there would be a star system with 12 inhabitable planets? Not really, but that was in the original and at some point I decided to run with that as another nod to the old show.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:56, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:::An important note on this topic is that among young stars, they tend to be grouped in what is known as "stellar associations" which are several stars that are gravitational bound together by virtue of them all being born at the same time in the same stellar nursery and all being within a light year of each other; hence you could call them a system. Now, over time as they get more to our Sun's age, they will disapate over a great distance and no longer be associated, but this is over 100s of millions to billions of years. Generally it is considered unlikely that such young stars bear planets that possess life but does not rule out the idea that they have planets... earth-like planets. Therefore, a stellar association, possessing 12 or more stars....all within a light year of each other...--[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 01:40, 10 April 2006 (PST)

::::Honestly, this is the sort of speculation that impedes my enjoyment of the show. It doesn't matter, and I don't care. Feel free to speculate as you will, but I think the whole debate is distracting and unworthy of more than a footnote. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:37, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

== More on flags ==

I found this a while ago. A user on Sci-Fi.com's messageboard going by "bescincimevsim" has made some incredible renderings of all twelve colonial flags that, in my oppinion look very good and accurate to what has been seen on the show. It might be worth checking out the [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1310569&Searchpage=2&Main=1310569&Words=bescincimevsim&topic=&Search=true#Post1310569 topic here]. I ''think'' they might be avalible for free use, but then again the guy doesn't seem to be available for contact anymore a he posted only one topic, the one about the flags, then stopped posting altogether in mid October. Either way, I think it should be worth checking out. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 18:05, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:We should not use these. I think they're just fanart. There is a page in the official companion of *early* flag designs (the names are wrong in some cases, etc. so this page of the book is an early draft and shouldn't be used as fact). However, this guy also confuses the symbols of Tauron and Leonis. I mean it's just a guy posting on a messageboard. The Citation Crusade wouldn't stand for it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::The assignment of colony and flag is obviously non-canon, but the graphics themselves are far superior to the ones we're using. We should ask him to license them to us under the CCL. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:56, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::Alternately, if he can be contacted, ask him to create corrected ones based on a CCL.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 14:40, 2 February 2006 (EST)
::Well, I've done some tweaking to our icons making them look a little crisper and sort-of rationalised the originals by QuintusCinna and the ones seen on the Sci-Fi BBS by bescincimevsim. I'll upload them soon and if you don't like them then I guess you can just revert them later. Just thought I'd help out, is all. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 00:12, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:::I think they're an improvement. Thank you, Kahran. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:57, 17 March 2006 (CST)

==Colonial Flags==
The Colonial Flags, as listed on this page, have been matched to their colonies based solely on on-screen evidence. Given their dubious veracity on other matters, I am not prepared to take the Official Magazine's word for it over what we've actually seen — at least not without a discussion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:Okay, then you should know that the flags also match what is written in the Battlestar Galactica The Official Companion. It has a page for Colonial Day that lists the flasg for each colony and it's the smae as the Magazine flag listings, so that's two sources that support my listings as opposed the shoddy on-screen evidence from the episodes. --Ltcrashdown 22:30, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've examined the footage of Colonial Day and QuintusCinna's arguments, and concluded that they aren't very strong. I'm going to revert this back to your version. Do you have a cite for the Official Companion as well? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:35, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::Here's the info: Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion by David Bassom, page 86, Published by Titan Books, London, August 2005
:::By the way, what was QuintusCinna's source?--Ltcrashdown 22:39, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::::For the colonies at issue here, it was mostly conjecture on his part. I remembered his argument having more basis than it actually did. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 8 February 2006 (EST)

== We are Gemenese if you Please! ==

I think the way this works (and once we nail it down, we should put it on S&C, probably) is that someone ''from'' Gemenon is a Gemenon, but the adjective for describing them is Gemenese. So, like, a nice Gemenese Rug or something. This is a throwback to the language of Gemenese in TOS, I think. Now... Is someone from Caprica Caprican and "a Caprica" or does that one match the adjective (like I'm from Texas, thus I am Texan and "a Texan" if that helps)? Whatcha think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:07, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== Aerilon? ==

Unless someone cites a source on this spelling correction, I think this needs to be reverted. Anyone? --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 19:46, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:Seems like other people are using it: http://s9.invisionfree.com/Ragnar_Anchorage/index.php?showtopic=658 the same way. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:52, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::It is also on http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/ships/ships/ on the Celestra bio. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:55, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::: Well, the forum link is inconclusive, as the poster using that spelling questions it himself and is not, quite frankly, a reliable source. The SciFi.com link is more helpful, but still doesn't help much. They have two different spellings for a couple of the Colonies still around their site, so we can't really trust them on this. Does anyone have a copy of the various writings spawned from the show? If the companions and magazines and scifi.com all agreed, even though none of those are on our big list of accepted sources, I'd consider that a pretty good indication that we'd been misspelling it this whole time. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:30, 20 March 2006 (CST)

==Spelling==
This topic keeps coming up, and our spelling conventions do not seem to match the ones generally used throughout fandom, so I want to have a definitive location for sources on spelling used here. Our emphasis, as always, is on citation and accuracy.

The names of six of the colonies can be seen fully spelled out in the episode "Colonial Day". There should be no room for debate on these.
<gallery>
Image:sp-canceron.jpg|Canceron
Image:sp-caprica.jpg|Caprica
Image:sp-gemenon.jpg|Gemenon
Image:sp-leonis.jpg|Leonis
Image:sp-sagittaron.jpg|Sagittaron
Image:sp-virgon.jpg|Virgon
</gallery>

We can also see the first three letters of "Picon": 
[[Image:sp-picon.jpg|sp-picon.jpg]] 
There's no serious controversy here, as no other spelling has been proposed for that colony.

Although not visible in the episode, the spelling of Scorpia can be clearly seen in a high-resolution [http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/1.11/imagepages/image6.html publicity still]: 
[[Image:sp-scorpia.jpg|150px]] 
This is complicated by [[Helena Cain]]'s reference to the "Scorpian Fleet Shipyards" in the episode "[[Pegasus (episode)]]". [[Talk:The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Scorpion vs. Scorpia|Extensive discussion]] on battlestar wiki concluded that the visual evidence should be deferred to, and also suggested that she may have been using "Scorpian" as an adjectival form of the colony's name. This was supported by Michelle Forbes's use of a reduced vowel in the final syllable, while other colony names used throughout the series have used the fully realized vowel /ɑ/.

The names "Aquaria" and "Tauron" were given in "[[Colonial Day]]" and "[[Pegasus (episode)]]", respectively. There is no serious debate on their spelling.

Very little evidence is available regarding the colony corresponding to Libra. Neither it nor its citizens have ever been mentioned in the miniseries or 33 episodes aired to date, nor has RDM mentioned the colony in his blog. SciFi.com's website refers to the [[Space Park]] as being of "Libran" registry, but it is unclear whether this is meant to be the nominal or adjectival form of the colony's name (see below).

The name of the colony corresponding to Aries was named as {{IPA|'ɛɹ.lɑn}} in "[[Bastille Day]]". Two spellings have been proposed. It is worth noting that the second vowel, which is the one at issue, is not actually pronounced by actress Mary McDonnell.

'''AERILON''' 
'''Official Use'''

The SciFi.com website refers to the [[Celestra]] as being of "Aerilon" registry. This is apparently the nominal form, despite the anomalous use of the adjectival "Caprica" on the "Colonial One" entry on the same webpage. (The adjectival forms of Scorpia (Scorpian, established in "[[Pegasus (episode)]]") and Tauron (Tauranian, established in "[[Resistance]]") are not used.)

RDM uses this spelling in a [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/#a000016 blog entry] dated 30 January, 2005.

'''Fan Use'''
*Google returns approximately [http://www.google.com/search?q=aerilon 400 matches] for this spelling.
*This spelling is used by transcript website SadGeezer.com.

'''AERELON''' 
'''Fan Use'''
*Google returns approximately [http://www.google.com/search?q=aerelon 300 matches] for this spelling.
*[http://tviv.org/wiki/Battlestar_Galactica_(2003)/The_Twelve_Colonies TV IV]
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:34, 23 March 2006 (CST)

== Should I Add This Or Not? ==

On Wikipedia there is a lot more information on the Twelve Colonies, including founders and names of capital cities. Should I add this information to the corresponding colony section on this page or is this information that doesn't belong on this wiki? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 11:04, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
:We're pretty strict about [[BW:CITE|citations]] around here. Unless we can find official sources to back up that info, it doesn't belong here. I'm pretty sure that it hasn't been officially established names for all Twelve Lords of Kobol (if there are exactly twelve, as RDM was a bit vague on this), and I've got no idea where they are getting the capitol names from. If there is an official source, we'd be good, but it feels like this may be derived from fan fiction (which would have NO place on this article) or at best from novelizations/alternate continuity (which could at least be argued, but is still suspect). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:17, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
::Understood. I just reviewed the article and it said that the names were non-canonical. In that case, Wikipedia's information has NO place in this article. If the characters start listing off this information in the next seasons (which I SERIOUSLY doubt they will at this point), I can put it in. However, I want to note that I found confirmation for Aerelon's capital (including a photo) and the colony description on Google. You have to type "Aerelon" (make sure it's spelled EXACTLY like that) and then scroll down the top ten results page. The title is simply "Aerelon" and is located two results under the listing for our own wiki. The description starts with "Capital: Maegera"--[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 19:24, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
:::That's a fan site. Please read over the [[BW:CITE|Citation Jihad]] for a list of official sources. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:00, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

Thank you no end, Homeworld616, for pointing out this grievous error on Wikipedia. *One person* posted their own fanfic into there: they even left a warning label: "These following sections contain equal parts fanon and canon.".....er, it is impossible to be both "fanon" and "canon" at the same time. ----->'''I have personally deleted all of this fanfic from Wikipedia, and warned the user that posted it'''. Sorry, but they get all kinds on wikipedia. Thanks for asking us and bringing it to our attention 616--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:45, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

:No problem, Merovingian. It's my pleasure to help make Wikipedia and its associated sites better for all. I can't believe someone actually tried to pass their fanfic off as fact. Oh well, so long as it has been deleted. But we need to watch for other users posting crap around here. Wikipedia's Twelve Colonies may just be the beginning. To quote Shakespeare from ''The Tempest,'' "what is past is prologue." --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 01:12, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Notes on Culture ==

All right, has anyone noticed that in the Colonies, virtually everything that would be a rectangle here on Earth (pictureframe, sheet of paper, etc.) is a ''hexagon''? To cite some examples, in the [[Miniseries]] Roslin is handed a slip of paper describing the Cylon attack on a networked Battlestar. That slip is a hexagon. Adama's picture frame of him, Zak and Lee is also a hexagon. Even the computers are hexagons. Now, a hexagon has 6 sides (half of 12, which is seemingly a symbolic number in the series), and is a practical shape for use (12-gons would be stupid for paper) so does anyone think that the hexagon is some kind of symbolic shape for the Colonials?

Also, in the [[Delphi Museum of the Colonies]], Starbuck is walking past display cases full of ancient pottery. Culture is transmitted in the form of art and artifacts, so while this may be trivial I feel like it is worth noting.

In addition to this, notice how Elosha's priestess garment is pretty eccentric, while Brother Cavil's uniform is a plain black cassock with some purple decorations. A difference of garb choice for priestesses and priests, perhaps?

Furthermore, in the [[Miniseries]], notice those Caprican mothers carting their babies around the city in those oversized plastic baby carriages that look like they provide too much protection for the tots. Perhaps a link to the Scripture statement saying that life is precious and should be protected? I can't think of any other way for the carriage manufacturer to be willing to put extra money into obtaining more plastic resources for the increased carriage size and safety. No wait, lawsuits... But that still wouldn't explain the supersized babymobiles and extra costs and materials needed for manufacturing.

Cereals! In [[Sacrifice]] (I think, I'm not sure), Roslin tells an aggressive Billy Keikaya, "Looks like someone ate their Wheaties today." Okay, so...General Mills was actually a ''Colonial'' corporation and they imported it to Earth while we weren't looking. This might just imply that the Colonials also ate Cascadian Farm, Frescarini, Lucky Charms, Chex Mix, Cheerios, Hamburger Helper...the list goes on. Either that or I'm just making a big deal over some trivial prodcut placement.

Finally, in TOS, most of the buildings in Caprica (with exception of Long Beach City Hall where the episode was filmed), were pyramids. In the RDM series, there aren't as many pyramids, but there are a couple in Caprica City (let me get the image). Since there is circumstantial evidence that life began on Earth, does anyone think these pyramids could be a link with the Egyptians, who already had a thriving civilization and the Giza pyramids built by the time Greece (and perhaps the Kobol-sect) became an ancient powerhouse?

Taking all of this into consideration, should I initiate a "Culture" section for the Twelve Colonies (RDM)? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 14:36, 3 July 2006 (CDT)
:According the the episode transcript...
:'''[[Laura Roslin]]''': Someone took their vitamins this morning. 
:'''[[Billy Keikeya]]''': Yeah, I don't know what got into me. 
:--''[[Sacrifice]]''
:There's an "[[Arts and Literature of the Twelve Colonies|arts and lit article]]" under construction for the 12 Colonies seriesthat might be a home for some of the architecture, pottery, etc. notes. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:08, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks, Steelviper. I'll look into that. --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 15:18, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

[[Image:Mini-Caprica City.jpg]]
Here's the image. Look to the FAR right hand side and note the two pyramid office buildings, one with steep lateral faces and the other looking kind of like a glass reproduction of the Giza pyramids. --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 14:41, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

Arts and Lit is where we're working on that. Note, that it's really just an in-joke from the Miniseries: they had to "cut corners" on the production due to budget restraints, so it started out as a joke that they were "cutting corners" on everything. The problem was, as this series progressed this became a logistical nightmare, as literally hours of work had to be spent into doing this, i.e. stacks of books in Cain's quarters. As for the image....I'm sorry but it's too vague to actually make out if it's anything. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:24, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

== Links ==

Folks, I've noticed there's some ambiguity going on with the Wiki reference links, and I think we should probably straighten them out. In short, do we want to link to the astrological sign, or the constellations? I note this because I just cleaned up a few of the links before realizing this should be discussed, as (for example), someone had [[Wikipedia:Capricorn|Capricorn]] point to the WP page there, which is a disambig page, instead of [[Wikipedia:Capricorn (astrology)|Capricorn (astrology)]] or [[Wikipedia:Capricornus|Capricorn'''us''']] (the constellation; note the spelling, as there's at least one more constellation that swings this way - [[Wikipedia:Scorpius|Scorpius]]). Just a thought or two to muddy the waters further. ^_^--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 22:00, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
:I'd prefer to link to the constellations. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:08, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Done and done, then.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:44, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Hero/Archive2

2006-11-20T17:10:45Z

LucentPhoenix: Cylon detector problems

== Can We compare Adama to President George....Washington? :) ==
I was reading the quote from Eick, "...Adama begins to believe that on some level he might have been responsible for provoking the Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies." and for some reason I felt that thie reminded me of Gorge Washington long before we was president or even commander-in-chief when, before the 7-Years-War, Washington was involved in a skirmish with the French over Fort Necessity, aka Pittsburgh (yes, we fought a battle for that city) that led to Washington signing a treaty stating, unbeknownst to him because he couldn't speak French and his interpreter sucked, that he committed attrocities against France in the name of the British Empire. This, according to many historians, led to the 7 Years War, known in America as the French and Indian War, that would decimate Northern Germany. I'm sure Washington at some level had to be aware of this error on his part and led him to remorse I imagine. Anyways, the story is different but I was wondering how many parallels there will be, if there will be, in this episode to Washington's conundrum. I wanted to ask a question on the article page but couldn't concise it enough for wiki standards. I may ask on the scifi bboard but input on this would be appreciated before I do. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 19:42, 3 August 2006 (PST)
:That's an interesting analogy, showing a fine attention to historical detail. I think the parallel has minor flaws, though, since Washington's conduct in that matter isn't generally considered morally wrong so much as foolish. [[Wikipedia:Gavrilo Princip|Gavrilo Princip]] might be worth considering as a parallel; he was the immediate but not ultimate cause of a devastating war, and he precipitated the conflict by attacking his fellow countryman, thinking it justified in contrast to the general consensus. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 02:28, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

:: It's unlikely that Adama's actions are quite the transgression that he believes it to be; after all, the [[cylon agent|Cylons had been violating the armistice line]] for about a half a year prior to Adama's, anyway.[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 02:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)

::: I was wondering about the timeline as well. I think Adama says somthing like, the mission was a year before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|attack]], but the cylons had been planning the attack for two years. However, I think there is an error in the timeline. Adama also says he served with Boomer for two years, and I think he implied that it was on Galactica. Gaeta also says that he served with Adama for three years. It is possible that Gaeta was on the Valkyrie for a year, but I think the mission happened about two years before the attack, not just one. I will rewatch the episode, but do you have any ideas? [[User:Jrmurph|Jrmurph]] 12:21, 18 November 2006 (EST)
:::: I think there is an inconsistency in the story. It is not unexplainable, ie Gaeta and Boomer served with Adama on the Valkyrie, but it did seem like nobody other than Adama or Tigh recognized Bulldog so the timeline is a little esquew. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:01, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Another Battlestar? ==
There is a spoiler image showing Adm Adama and Col Tigh in the CIC of the Battlestar Valkerie. I zoomed in on Adama and saw he had his Admiral's pins on. Might this be a sign that they soon will find yet another Battlestar? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:24, 15 November 2006 (CST)
: It's a flashback scene. It may be more of a costuming error. Note that Tigh still has his eye in that promo shot. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 01:39, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:: Right. Two eyed Tigh. Darn. I was hoping they'd find another Battlestar cause I do miss the Pegasus. It was bigger, much cooler and the doors made this cool "beep" when they opened. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:50, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:::You can visit [[Valkyrie]] as well. It's a spoiler until Friday but you can adjust it with some new data later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:36, 15 November 2006 (CST)
::::It's true, I saw the Admiral pips as well, the flashback should have been Commander pips; as the Stealth ship incident occurred three years ago. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 22:56, 17 November 2006 (CST)
: The Valkerie looked to be a Mercury class Battlestar. This would make sense because the galactica class was an older ship and has been all but replaced with the newer bigger and more efficent Mercury class.--[[User:Mike|Mike]] 09:30, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It's definately not a Mercury, the only part really similar is the engine block. If anything, it looked most like a reimagining of the original series battlestar, down to the rectangular opening in the flightpod and the angular head. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::Inside it looks like a Mercury yes. That's a sign of its age. But outside, it's far smaller than a full-sized battlestar. Look at the gun battery on the top. There's only one and almost covers the width of the ship there. See the Valkyrie page for more details (where this discussion should take place), but I think it's basically a smaller battlestar meant for support duties. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:52, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:: Not disagreeing with your main point, but its quite possible that there were far more Battlestar classes than just the "Cylon War Type" and the Mecurcy class, given that the colonies built up a fleet of arround 120 Battlestars over about 50 years, particularly as the Viper apparently went through 5 different itterations over this time, although we are likely never going to see the intervening versions of either type --[[User:Useless|Useless]] 09:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Barry Kennedy as Admiral Corman ==

Hey all, I was just checking on Barry Kennedy's link, and it links to an IMDB page other than his profile page detailing his filmography, and etc. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 23:52, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:That's because some people keep forgeting the "nm" when entering imdb numbers and in that case the link default to title instead of actor --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:53, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The Stealth-Star==
hey i just noticed this but the name of the ship was the stealth star so someone(not me)should create it a page. Best Snorkel378
:Already done [[Stealth Star]]. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:41, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The scene with Baltar, Six and Three in bed==
it says on there that 3 is having a sexual realationship with baltar and six?
Cylons arent lesbos i think they were having a 3some {{unsigned|Snorkel378}}
:You are assuming that the Six we see is Caprica-Six and not Baltar's internal Six. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 20:49, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It would be an odd choice cinematically to have Three wake up from a dream and show us something from inside Baltar's head. {{unsigned|Wldkt1}}
:::Please remembe rto sign your posts on talk pages guys <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:05, 19 November 2006 (CST)
The fact that Baltar and Six are in a 'clutch' position makes it unlikely that it's his internal Six. Three would have noticed Baltar trying to hug thin air in his sleep. Baltar is also in the center of the bed, rather than on one side. In addition, Caprica seems to be aware of (and approves) Three's new interest in Baltar. Regarding the possibility of a relationship between Three and Six: that is only speculation, but just because we haven't seen a lesbian relationship between cylons doesn't mean one isn't possible.[[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 22:18, 19 November 2006 (CST)

==The Black Ops Mission==
Does anyone think that the entire mission was poorly concieved? First, the Colonials jump a Battlestar to very close range of the armistice line, which one would expect to attract attention in and of itself. Second, we see the ''Valkyrie'' track the S-Star after launch and over the line. This either means the Valkyrie tracked it directly on DRADIS, which indicates it's not much of a stealth ship and that the Cylons should be able to detect it as well, or the S-Star has some sort of transponder reporting its position, which is also something the Cylons should detect. Finally, as referenced in the main article, the S-Star maintains radio contact with the ''Valkyrie'' throughout the whole mission, again something the Cylons should be able to detect. Would the writers have really overlooked all this, or are we meant to conclude that the Admriality meant for the mission to have been discovered by the Cylons? --[[User:Cleophus|Cleophus]] 22:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:-The mission is quite similar to the United States' U2 overflights during the late 1950's and 60's. Certain similarities between the depicted incident and the [[:wikipedia:U-2 Crisis of 1960|incident involving Francis Gary Powers]] can be read. It also conjures up several dozen observation flights by aircraft such as specially outfitted C-130's flying perilously close to a boundary line — even going so far as to slip a wingtip across it to "call a bluff". Also, there's the incident involving the Chinese Gai-8 fighter and the US P-3 Orion.
:In the case of our Colonials here, the stealth craft is more than likely equipped with an "odd frequency" (either very low or very high), encrypted transponder that transmits on a specific wavelength, only for IFF purposes. If I recall correctly, F-117 Nighthawks can still use their radios when on ops (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I suspect that this mission was proposed in order to get a glimpse into ''any'' Cylon activity. The stealth craft would be dangled out as a tiny bit of bait – just enough to get a response. Its stealth characteristics would increase its ability to dash back across the Armistice Line untracked and unaffected, and then ''Valkyrie'' would be able to observe and record the arriving Cylons. If questions were raised ("What are you doing here?" ... "Good question, what are ''you'' doing here?" ... "We detected you over the Armistice Line." ... "Who, us? Noooo... We've been on our side this whole time, just trolling about, watching over our miners over there on that moon there. So why are you here again? You don't mind if we take some photos of you while you're here, do you?"), the Colonials would feign ignorance and innocence, but they'd at least have a response... something that the Cylons haven't even projected in thirty-plus years. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

==Folks in White Robes==
Aren't there five white-robed figures in Number Three's vision? It's pretty speculative, but maybe these are meant to represent the five missing Cylon models (maybe they've undergone some kind of transcendence, and are "with God now" or something). Maybe the article should note this (after all, the white-robes show up for the first time just a couple episodes after we first learn that there's definitely something different or mysterious about the five missing models), though I don't know the proper section for it. {{unsigned|Steve}}

:- I noticed that too, but was going to "acquire" the episode and re-watch that part, or watch it again on Monday to see... I _think_ there are five humanoid figures in white robes, kneeling or seated in that semi-circle when Three walks amongst them. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Reference to Raising Arizona? ==

I'm new here, so I didn't want to jump right into the thick of things by adding this to the main page before running it by other people...when Adama and Novacek are sitting down for the first time, Adama asks him something like "How did you escape, Bulldog?". Novacek rambles for a little bit (again, I don't remember exact words) but wraps up with "I felt the facility no longer had anything to offer me...". If I'm not mistaken, this is a reference to Raising Arizona--John Goodman's character says just about the exact same thing after he breaks out of prison. I can't seem to find the line on IMDB or Wikiquote, though... {{unsigned|MikeDanger}}
:Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:As far as I remember "Raising Arizona", the dialogue goes like this: 
:''- You busted outta jail?'' 
:''- No, ma'am. We released ourselves on our own recognizance.'' 
:''- What Evelle is tryin' to say is we felt the institution no longer had anything to offer us.'' -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 08:28, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Insight into Cylon plan ==
If the Cylons know where the Colonials are, or at least know well enough to send Bulldog at them, it's common sense to ask, why don't they just attack? Well, maybe their goal isn't to destroy Galactica et al outright but something more complex. One thing that does seem consistent with their plan is their desire to kill Adama, perhaps because they want to send the fleet into disarray without him at the top. Examples: Leoben telling Roslin that Adama's a Cylon in Flesh and Blood, Boomer shooting Adama repeatedly in Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. II. There may be more examples that I can't think of right now.

People have been crying out "plot hole!" with reckless abandon in light of Bulldog's ability to pinpoint Galactica's position, but if the Cylon plan really is as simple as ''kill all humans,'' as these detractors might claim, then much of the show falls apart. The reality is, we don't really know the Cylon plan, and at this point, there's really no reason to jump to the conclusion that the writers are just too lazy to think of one. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 18:22, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:The Cylons might know full well where the Colonials are but if they jumped in a couple of Basestars then the fleet would zip out of there pretty sharpish and might go somewhere where the Cylons dont know and they will have to find them all over again. IMO, their plan is a long game. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 19:17, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:IMHO, "Hero" is the weakest episode of the series yet. There's just too many logic errors for me to dismiss as part of the "suspension of disbelief" process. For instance, how does Bulldog have the time to learn how to pilot a Cylon raider, when Starbuck took hours to figure out how to operate the thing? Also, how would Bulldog be able to operate the FTL drive -- Kobol's Last Gleaming pretty much made it clear that the FTL drive needed an actual computer, given that the brain had to be ripped out in order for it to be piloted manually. But that's another not so fine mess.
: As for the Cylon plans, well, they're clearly compliated and seem to be changing since the attack. Whether or not this is by design has yet to be detrmined, though I sincerely doubt that the writer's have this thing all planned out a la ''Babylon 5''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:30, 19 November 2006 (CST)

::Yeah, I know what you're saying. I also doubt it's all planned out B5-style (hasn't Ron basically said something to that effect anyway, like how much they enjoy making it up as they go along?), but that doesn't mean it necessarily can't all add up in the end, and we should assume that they ''do'' know what they are doing until they are proven wrong.

::Also, a lot of people have been talking about how unrealistic it is for Bulldog to have learned how to operate the raider in such a short time. I'm not trying to start an arguement about this, but I don't actually remember them saying that he had only a short time to learn how to use the raider. Are you guys just assuming that he had to learn it all quickly based on the rushed nature of his escape? Is there a reason he couldn't have actually had a few hours to do it? I mean, if they let him escape, then he could have been in the basestar hangar for hours trying to work the controls while they watched (and snickered) from behind the glass. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 23:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Possible Discontinuity ==
According to the episode, Adama and friends served on the Valkyrie a year before the attacks. This implies that Adama was only commander of the Galactica for a year before the miniseries. Yet on the Kara Thrace article, it states that Thrace "resigned from flight school as a instructor and transferred as an operational pilot aboard battlestar Galactica under the command of William Adama, where she served for some '''two years prior to the Cylon attack''' on the Twelve Colonies." They can't both be right.

Also, from the Tyrol article: "He served aboard battlestars from the age of eighteen, including Columbia, Atlantia, and Pegasus (Resistance). He has served under William Adama on Galactica for five years (Litmus)." If he served under Adama for 5 years, why didn't he mention the Valkyrie when he was being intimidated by Tigh in Resistance? This could be simply because Tigh would have known that.--[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 22:16, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:No, your first impulse is correct - it's quite certainly an error.
:'''Gaeta:''' And... may I take this opportunity to say that it's been both a pleasure and an honour to serve under you [Adama], these past three years. ([[Miniseries]])
:'''Adama:''' We [Thrace and I] talked about a lot of things. We've been aboard this ship for over two years, we know each other very well. ([[Act of Contrition]])
:'''Adama:''' She [Valerii] was more than that to us. She was more than that to me. She was a vital, living person... aboard my ship for almost two years. She couldn’t have been just a machine. Could you love a machine? ([[The Farm]])
:Also, note that the timeline in Adama's dossier (which seems to be accurate based on other data points) puts his transfer to ''Galactica'' at six years prior to the miniseries.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:48, 20 November 2006 (CST)

::It is quite possible that this is not an error ''per se''. Adama and some of his command staff could easily have been assigned to the more modern Valkyrie from Galactica for the mission. It wouldn't make much sense to send "the bucket" on a stealth mission anyway. Notice Valkyrie seemed smaller and was probably more modernized, which would make it all the better for that type of mission. So Adama could easily have been in command of Galactica for several years prior, been offered command of Valkyrie as a reward, for career advancement or just for the mission... and have been pushed back to Galactica when the mission failed. Certainly the plan to decommission Galactica was in the works for some time, and they would not want one of their good commanders to retire with the ship... until after the mission where he failed. None of the characters would be expected to say "I served under Adama for some years, and some other guy for a couple of months, then Adama again." They would just say they served with him for X number of years. If we compare to the modern US Navy, this sort of thing is not all the uncommon.--[[User:Xealot|Xealot]] 10:22, 20 November 2006 (CST)
:::The dossier's progression from XO of ''Columbia'' to Commander of ''Valkyrie'' to Commander of ''Galactica'' seems to indicate that ''Valkyrie'' was his first battlestar command. Though I agree that the serve under "X years" would fly if they stayed under him. It's just the "this ship"'s that start biting them. (When they specify the ship instead of the command.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:53, 20 November 2006 (CST)

== Cylon detector problems ==

There's some inconsistency with the "Cylon Detector" that Doc Cottle used to determine that Bulldog was a human. First of all, if you look at the screen caps, [http://galacticabbs.com/index.php?act=module&module=gallery&cmd=si&img=56612|like this one], you can see that the screen says "-RESULTS NEGATIVE-" If he was testing the DNA against their military records, it should say "-RESULTS POSITIVE-" If it's negative, the DNA doesn't match. That, or it's supposed to be a Cylon Detector, and it's saying that he's not a Cylon. It seems like it could be a simple goof between dialogue and props.

However, going along with the DNA reasoning... that doesn't necessarily prove anything, does it? If they tested Boomer's DNA against the DNA they have on record for her, I assume it's going to match, since they probably took Cylon DNA initially. Who's to say that the same thing didn't happen to Bulldog? In that case, his DNA would match, but he'd be a Cylon. Seems like a poor determiner of race, that's all. I don't think that he's necessarily a Cylon, just that this is another "oops."

Talk:The Twelve Colonies of Kobol/Archive3

2006-11-20T14:50:01Z

LucentPhoenix: /* Residence vs. Tribe */

==Question==

Do we know that the colonies are necessarily on 12 worlds? Can someone find a reference? It's clear that virgon and caprica are in the same star system, and that each colony can have more than one city, (dephi, in caprica), but is there some reason why two colonies can't be on the same planet?

==Merge proposal==

This article, and the articles for each of the Twelve Colonies, are all very short, and I don't see any of them expanding substantially in the near future. I think it would make for a nice looking, meaty article if we merged in each of the individual colony articles with this one under first-level headings. How say you all? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:50, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I know this looks weird and kind of dumb. I'm still fiddling. It's easy to revert if the whole thing ends up being too hideous to bear. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:17, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

[[image:Banner_unknown1.gif|left|75px]][[image:Banner_unknown2.gif|right|75px]]
: I like the idea and whats up now. If we knew more about each colony, it would look nicer, but until then I think this is fine. Now... What to do with these other two banners? Now, the two colonies without banners are Leo and Aquarius, the lion and the water-bearer. Both of these symbols could be a water-bearer, I guess, but I think the black and white one looks like he has whisters, there and that shape at the top looks more ear-like. That would leave the blue and red one to be the water bearer, which I think makes sense enough. Think we could drop those in with a note as to their speculative nature, or best not to? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:27, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::I'm leaving this one up to [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]], our resident flag-hunter. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The two colonies without banners is Aquarius and whatever the colonial name is for Libra. I saw in the mini-series they mentioned a colony called "ICON" alongside of "PICON" so I'm a little weirded out. As for Leonis, that flag has been found. I did a picture search in google for the zodiac's constellation and found the flag's symbol looked exactly like what I have designated. I can't remember, but I believe the constellation for Libra looked quite similar to the black one. Since we don't yet know as of yet what is the name for the Libra colony, I have left it blank. [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]

:At least we know it isn't Ophiuchi or something. Roslin identifies Libra in the Tomb of Athena map room, although she doesn't give its modern name. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:59, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Realizing that it's still being worked on, it looks awful right now. You can't tell which banner goes to which colony, for one thing. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 08:30, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Personally, I don't really like the combination of all 12 colonies together either since there is no set border and down the road we will have pictures relating to each colony. This will make it slower to download. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 12:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The problem, in my opinion, is that there's little to do at the main article other than simply list the colonies, and the majority of the individual colonies are stub-like in length. As for images, Caprica is the only planet we've seen thus far and probably the only one we're likely to see (unless we get Scorpion in a flashback in Pegasus or something). One thing we can do, if it becomes necessary, is link to full-length articles from just underneath the first-level headings.

:As for the banners, I agree that they could be confusing but I rather like them right now. Do either of you think it coudl be re-arranged in a better manner (maybe if they didn't alternate sides? But then there'd be a lot more wasted space)? Or is it a lost cause in your opinions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:20, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::Yeah, you could try putting all the banners on the right. See how it looks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 14:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::There, that's what they look like right-aligned. Frankly, I think they look better alternating. I don't find it confusing, and the wasted space bugs me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::Hate to say it, but I don't like it at all. The banners overlap with the previous colony's "box", there are no clear markers indicating where one section begins and another ends, it just looks bad. (Part of the problem is that we don't have much information about many of the colonies at this point.) --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:07, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::It'd be better if we could insert a line across the entire page, and have the colony name under that line, along with the banner on the right. Then each colony would have a neat, easily readable section. I don't know if Wiki markup is capable of that though. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:10, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::I still think it's a better option than thirteen articles that are completely insubstantial on their own. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I added captions to some of the banners, and in the process deleted some of the <nowiki><div></nowiki> markup. Wikipedia recommends against using HTML ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_markup_with_HTML]), and I've been trying to learn from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_image_syntax Extended image syntax] page. I can't figure out why a new section like <nowiki>==Caprica==</nowiki> doesn't appear on the same level as its banner. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:09, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:Ah ha! The wonders of '''<nowiki> </nowiki>'''! What do you guys think of the formatting now? --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:28, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::My HTML/CSS was not used lightly. That's really the one way to get the banners at the section heading level as I did. Frankly this seems like a more cumbersome version of my right-aligned attempt. I really dislike the caption boxes, too.
::I have a new idea: Rather than use the (rather long) banners, we can grab the icons from each, along with the background colors, and use them. I've created nine high-resolution versions from QuintusCinna's originals, which you can link to below:
::[http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/aerelon.png Aerelon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/canceron.png Canceron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/caprica.png Caprica], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/gemenon.png Gemenon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/picon.png Picon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/sagittaron.png Sagittaron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpion.png Scorpion], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/tauron.png Tauron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/virgon.png Virgon]
::These could be scaled down to almost any size and still look nice. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:35, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Without caption boxes, it's not clear what the banners are. I know it seems self-explanatory to us, but for someone who's never seen them before, it's not. I'll take a look at the icons in a bit. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 17:03, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I find repeating "This is the Banner of X" to be tedious, and the red background to be jarring. Couldn't we simply note that the banner/icon/flag/colors of the colony is provided to the right? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:06, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Peter. You've saved us all. As I said earlier, I liked it when the banner appeared to be hanging from the red line under its colony's name. I share Peter's dislike for tons of white space and alternating the sides seemed to create the least of that. However, if we just had the emblem and colors from each flag, we could do it below the red line as Fang seems to like, and not have this huge, long graphic. Maybe we can then link the full banner pics and, if we get enough information that a given colony's article wouldn't be a stub, we can display it there. Does all that make sense? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I like it with banners to right, with titling, albeit a little redundant. Not sure how to deal with the "white space" of many areas, but we're really not going to get them filled until we get more data, so that is that. I feel it's informative enough as it stands, but I'll leave the formatting arguments alone. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:52, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

==Which flag is which?==
A close viewing of [[Colonial Day]] indicates that the flag currently labeled as [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]] belongs to Safiya Sanne's seat - either Picon or Leonis; and that the black flag belongs to Robin Wenutu's seat (Canceron), and that VIrgon's flag is a white field with a green inner stripe and yellow outer stripe. I'm curious as to how QuintusCinna came to his conclusion that the delegates aren't seated at their apprporiate flags, since I don't know any other evidence linking particular flags to colonies. I guess Scorpion is pretty obvious, though. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:34, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Don't trust the banners lining up with those they represent in [[Colonial Day]]. The reason I say this is that [[Tom Zarek]] is in one area of the room and his very obvious banner for Sagitarron is completely in another area. This is the same for Virgon's banner and their representative. There are 3 different questions I carry thanks to the shows I have watched. In the mini-series we see the banners are in this order from left to right: [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Virgon|Virgon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], Scorpion, Aquaria(?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]], Libra (?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Sagittaron|Sagittaron]], [[Canceron]] (?), [[Leonis]]. Is this in the order that the colonies signed the unification treaty or is the order for the flags random or is it in the order they were nuked? Though I am sure the producers, directors, and such just put them up in random order, it is now a sense of fact for the show. If we were to believe they were placed up there, the banners must be up there in some order that is according to military protocol for flag bearing. In Colonial Day I add 2 more questions. We see that the banners are behind the delegates in a different order than in the mini-series. This means they were either a) put up randomly or b) have a separate purpose than those shown at the end of the mini-series (nuked, treaty order, or other). Then we see that the delegates are put in a different order than the banners behind them. The Gemenon delegate is clearly seen toward the middle and the Gemenon flag is clearly in a different area. The same questions come up for the delegates: are they randomly placed or is there reason. It's not alphabetical, and placements of delegates and banners in every society is always in some sort of traditional order. I hope that the Battlestar Galactica producers, writers, and such will be able to answer this though I suspect they won't because they have REAL lives.

As for the Picon flag, the constellation looks quite similar to the picon banner and the same goes for Tauron's with Taurus. I have no doubt with those. The Libra's icon can be seen in this picture http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HorseAstrology/AstrologySymbol.gif 2 clockwise from Sagittarius.
--[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 1:12, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

==New Icons==
What do you think? We might consider making them smaller and removing the image frame and caption, but I'd also be happy leaving them as they are. It's nice to have a place to note that some of the symbols are only tentatively identified with the colonies in question. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:It looks fine. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 09:11, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I like 'em. I'd say smaller, though. Of course... I have my thumb settings to 300px so that screen shots are large enough to be intelligible, so smaller to me would be about 150px or 100px. I also like alternating for balance, but that's just me. I alternate right a left in other articles, too. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:21, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

I have a set of colonial glyphs that were lifted from a copy of the voting ballots used in Lay Down Your Burdens Pt1. I can upload both the cap of the ballot and the vector graphics file of the glyphs. I've already released the glyphs for public use, so I have no problem with their being used here. The ballot image I have has Baltar's name blurred out, as that was a spoiler at the time the image was released. The image orginally came from the Reproduction Props Forum, where a member got hold of one of the actual props used in the episode. --[[User:Scotchfairy|Scotchfairy]] 14:54, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

:Thanks for the offer. It would be nice to get a look at them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:16, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
::Okay, I've uploaded the four jpgs I have of the voting ballot. They still reside on my server at the moment. If you decide to include them in the wiki, I'll upload them to the database. 
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotSm.jpg Small Image of Ballot Front]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotFront.jpg Large Image of Ballot Front]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotBack.jpg Large Image of Ballot Back]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotTop.jpg Very Large Image of Ballot Top]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/ColonialGlyphs.gif My version of the colonial glyphs (gif)]
:: If you want to play with the Photoshop custom shapes file, it's [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/LeesBSGshapes.csh.zip here (zip)]. [[User:Scotchfairy|Scotchfairy]] 00:25, 2 August 2006 (CDT)

==Residence vs. Tribe==

I think there's a difference between "where a character currently makes their residence" and "what colony they are from". I think "what colony they are from" means "what ''tribe''" they are. For example, Dualla could have been away from Sagittaron for years and lived on another Colony, but she's still from the Sagittaron tribe. In "Bastille Day", she describes herself as "a Sagittaron", not "someone ''from'' Sagittaron".

Anyway, I also think that non-canonical information from SkyOne website should not be used in assuming Stabuck may be from Picon, not Caprica. We should wait until this is said on either the Scifi.com official site, or on screen.
--Ricimer, 16 Sept, 2005

:Actually, Dee did say "I'm from Sagittaron". [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:56, 10 July 2006 (CDT)

::I agree with the original sentiment. Under the [[The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29#Natives_2|Caprica Natives]] section, it lists Gaius Baltar, but then clearly states "(Born on Sagittaron)." If that is the case, then he is a native of ... drumroll please ... '''Sagittaron''', not Caprica. He may have resided there, but he was a Sagitton.

::I think this should be changed, but didn't want to just change it without some discussion. Unless there is a good reason given, though, I'm going to make the change. /[[User:LucentPhoenix|LucentPhoenix]] 08:26, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==Outposts==

Ricimer wrote: ''The Colonials actually expanded their sphere of influence over time beyond the original Twelve Colonies to include several outposts, bases, and mining colonies (such as [[Troy]]) in other systems ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html| RDM, January 30, 2005]), though they were apparently minor extensions of the original Twelve Colonies rather than independently functioning worlds in their own right, and when the Cylons overwhelmed the Twelve Colonies themselves no mention is even explicity made about these minor worlds, seeming to take it as a given that the destruction of the Twelve Colonies would equal the destruction of humanity, and that these outposts were not significant enough to pose any challenge to the Cylon fleet.''

RDM's actual comments are:

:Q: "Did the colonies have outposts, bases, or trade partners outside of the 12 colonies. Did they even explore other systems. The colonies could have had observatories, listening posts, or even scientific research teams exploring other planets beyond the colonial system(s). They could encounter any of these which could lead to supplies, raw materials, food, fuel etc. "

:RDM: I think that's probably true, but part of our premise is that the fleet has Jumped far out into unexplored space in an effort to elude the Cylons, so we won't be encountered any other outposts or colonies.

I think that's a very weak confirmation, and if we're going to include it here, it should reflect the vagueness of RDM's actual comment. I have replaced it with the following:

:Ronald D. Moore has suggested that the Colonies probably maintained some minor observatories and listening posts in outlying star systems, but it is unlikely that ''Galactica'' will encounter them in the course of the series. ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html#a000016|RDM, January 30, 2005])

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 15 December 2005 (EST)

==Scorpion vs. Scorpia==

At present, we have a name card from "[[Colonial Day]]" and the name of the [[Scorpia Traveler]] in favor of "Scorpia", and the [[Scorpion Fleet Shipyards]] in favor of "Scorpion". Ricimer, if you want to make a case for "Scorpion" over "Scorpia", you ''must'' cite an episode quote, and I will not produce it for you. Your uncited revisions are anathema to our goal of accuracy. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:34, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:I am sorry, I was in a hurry to get out and didn't have time to wip out my copy of the series companion. On p.86 of "Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion", by David Bassom, there is an "''early'' concept sketch of the flags of the Twele Colonies"; On this, it lists the names "Scorpia", but also "Libran", and "Aquarion". "[[Colonial Day]]" established that these two Colonies are in fact named "Libra" and "Aquaria", in dialog, etc. This evidence has led me to believe that "Scorpia" was amongst some early ideas for Colony names that were thrown around in the early stages of production, but which were later changed; however, the art and props department wasn't notified of the switch, or made a mistake, etc. I'm also inclined to this line of thinking because the props in this scene feature several now-infamous goofs, such as the switcheroo between Canceron, Picon, Leonis, etc., etc. As for the evidence from "Scorpia Traveler", there's also a "Gemini" ship, as well as mispelling etc. which have led me to the belief that certain ship names are just meant for asthetic value and do not necessarily reflect the actual name of their home Colony. In "Home, Part II" it was established that the Colonies used to have "ancient names" which align more closely to the signs of the Zodiac, but which over the millenia have drifted away into their present form. Perhaps some ship captains just felt like naming their vessels after the more ancient names. I don't know. But the main points remain: A) Ship names aren't very reliable as an information source, B) this scene had many goofs in it, C) the official companion shows that this was an early name thrown around, but later abandoned, and several of these early names have been disproven by this point. Therefore, I think "Scorpion Fleet Shipyards", the first ''prominent'' mention of Scorpion/Scorpia, taken with the above evidence, proves that the true name of the Colony is "Scorpion". What's everyone else's consensus? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:24, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I'm with Ricimer on this one.--Zareck Rocks 15:04, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I agree with Ricimer, as Cain's mention of the "scorpion fleet shipyards" is the only canonical reference to place when it comes to the scorpio-related colony. It has also been shown, as Ricimer mentions above, that the ship names seem to be variations of the colony names i.e. [[Gemenon Taveller]] and the [[Gemini]]. So we can't necessarily glean the name of the scorpio-related colony from the [[Scorpia Traveller]], for there may also be a Scorpion Traveller.
::However, unless someone can verify this with subtitles, Cain could be saying Scorpi''an'' fleet shipyards, rather than Scorpi''on'', thereby inferring that the colony name is Scorpia (I dare to speculate that the Caprica would have it's own Caprican fleet shipyards(if it did indeed have shipyards)). I don't have the DVDs, as they're not yet available in Canada, but someone should really check this, it could answer this question --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 16:20, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::I've grepped the TwizTV logs, and the Scorpia/Scorpion colony has never been referred to apart from the instances we've already listed. So, here's what that means:
:::#We have a mention of the "Scorpia Traveler", which matches the "Gemenon Traveler". "Freighter Gemini" is a TOS reference.
:::#We have a comment that might be the "Scorpion" shipyards, or the "Scorpian" shipyards.
:::#We have a clear and readable screenshot of the name of the colony.
:::We should not "correct" the name of the colony to what we think it "should" be, when we have unequivocal evidence staring us in the face. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::I'm sorry, but it doesn't really seem like the above evidence is "unequivocal". Thankfully, I think "Resurrection Ship" will make further mention of ''Pegasus' '' flight from the shipyards, and we will probably hear the name again. Best to wait until then. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:05, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::Let me clarify. We have at least seen "Scorpia" spelled out. We have never even ''heard'' "Scorpion", except in a context that might easily have been "Scorpian". In my opinion, the two options here are "Scorpia" or "We don't know". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::Wait a minute, someone out there has got to have the DVD set of the second season, we should be able to determine the definitive name of the scorpio colony from that. Although, I suppose, Peter, that you're suggesting we leave it at Scorpia until someone can check the subtitles. That sounds fine with me. --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 22:56, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::How will that tell us definitively? It was only mentioned in "Pegasus", in the ambiguous dialogue mentioned above. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:00, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::Like I said, we stand a good chance of hearing it again in the very next two episodes, so I suggest we leave things as they are, and reach a final decision after "Resurrection Ship, Part II". Although we could get subtitles from the DVD, subtitles can be notoriously innaccurate when it comes to the finer points of spelling, i.e. Scorpion vs. Scorpian. Perhaps we could rewatch Pegasus, and check the inflection that Michelle Forbes uses; I ''think'' she clearly said "-ion" (as opposed to "-ian"). I'll check again; however, even hearing the dialog personally, I doubt this will give a DEFINATIVE answer in ANY form as the actress could have been just slurring it. I don't know. Well, I'll check for the sake of checking. Again, I think we should "wait and see" on this one. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:11, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::I just watched the episode and the subtitles (however inaccurate) do say "Scorpion." It does sound like Forbes says more of an -ion than -ian. Just my two cents. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:30, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Thank you Talos. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:04, 26 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Scorpion would be pronounced with the full vowel "{{IPA|piɑn}}, while "Scorpian" would use a reduced vowel, {{IPA|piən}} or {{IPA|piɨn}}. The latter is what I hear, although Ricimer is right that it could just be "slurring". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:09, 26 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::::I've isolated Michelle Forbes's pronunciation of "Scorpi_n" and uploaded it [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpian.wav here]. Unfortunately, the last syllable is basically whispered and cannot be analyzed for vowel formants. It does sound very reduced to me, however. This is not usually the case for Picon, Gemenon, etc. which are almost always realized with full vowels.
:::::::::::Note, by the way, that the ''animal'' spelled "Scorpion" would be pronounced the same as the adjective "Scorpian", while a colony called Scorpion would be pronounced "Skor-pee-on". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:05, 28 December 2005 (EST)

Final call for objections before I move the relevant articles. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:23, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

== Location ==

I didn't want to get into a revert war, so... How, exactly, are the colonies' positions indicated in the Tomb of Athena? I just watched that ep last night and I don't remember any arrows or name tags... If the theory is that the colonies are inside the constellation that shares their name, then I think I'll have to disagree. Not possible. The zodiac constellations are spread about in our sky in a circle, meaning they're not very near each other at all (so if "the Colonies" can be considered some single area of space that's small enough to go from one end to another inside months they need to be closer than a large ring of space encircling Earth) and all the stars in a constellation aren't even necessarily near each other. --[[User:Day|Day]] 10:42, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I don't think the positions of the Twelve Colonies are indicated at all by the tomb of Athena. It's just a map to Earth (Earth being the only spot where those constellations would appear in that configuration). It is interesting that would mean that there isn't a direct correlation between the constellations and the colonies that they are named after... (other than as a rememberance of where they came from, kind of). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:50, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:The fact of the matter is that the Tomb of Athena holographic map to Earth shows constellations made of the symbols of the Twelve Tribees/Colonies; these constellations are '''entirely arbitrary'''; that is, they were designated purely because they resemble the symbols of the Colonies; each planet of the 12 is in ''no way'' in each constellation. Besides, that would mean they'd often end up in separate galaxies. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::Well, no, not separate galaxies, but further apart from each other than each is from earth. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:34, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::: My point exactly, Peter. Well said. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:05, 5 January 2006 (EST)

Can we take the part about all the colonies orbiting the same star out of the article? I think it's pretty clear that they're all separate systems, unless someone has different information. --[[User:Bahamut|Bahamut]] 02:42, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:Why do you think that's clear? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:59, 12 March 2006 (CST)

::Mostly because of the use of FTL technology, but also because of the improbability of a star having twelve planets that can support human life. It's discussed elsewhere in the Wiki that it's likely they're all separate systems. Maybe instead of taking it out altogether we should add a caveat about how it's disputed or at least link to the other discussion? --[[User:Bahamut|Bahamut]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Upon re-watching the Miniseries (IMHO anyway) all references are given as hours from caprica, but when the war alert first goes off and Cmdr Adama asks to "scan the system" (circa 48mins in) the report is given that "Now, looks like the main fight is shaping up over here near Virgon's orbit" and a few lines latter "If we can keep Virgon between us and the battle". Which to me means that Virgon, Caprica and Ragnar (a gas giant) are all in the same solar system. thoughts anyone? [[User:Pickle UK|Pickle UK]] 00:45, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:I think this is a settled issue. From Moore's blog, [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/#a000016 30 January 2005]:
::Does it make sense that there would be a star system with 12 inhabitable planets? Not really, but that was in the original and at some point I decided to run with that as another nod to the old show.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:56, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:::An important note on this topic is that among young stars, they tend to be grouped in what is known as "stellar associations" which are several stars that are gravitational bound together by virtue of them all being born at the same time in the same stellar nursery and all being within a light year of each other; hence you could call them a system. Now, over time as they get more to our Sun's age, they will disapate over a great distance and no longer be associated, but this is over 100s of millions to billions of years. Generally it is considered unlikely that such young stars bear planets that possess life but does not rule out the idea that they have planets... earth-like planets. Therefore, a stellar association, possessing 12 or more stars....all within a light year of each other...--[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 01:40, 10 April 2006 (PST)

::::Honestly, this is the sort of speculation that impedes my enjoyment of the show. It doesn't matter, and I don't care. Feel free to speculate as you will, but I think the whole debate is distracting and unworthy of more than a footnote. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:37, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

== More on flags ==

I found this a while ago. A user on Sci-Fi.com's messageboard going by "bescincimevsim" has made some incredible renderings of all twelve colonial flags that, in my oppinion look very good and accurate to what has been seen on the show. It might be worth checking out the [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1310569&Searchpage=2&Main=1310569&Words=bescincimevsim&topic=&Search=true#Post1310569 topic here]. I ''think'' they might be avalible for free use, but then again the guy doesn't seem to be available for contact anymore a he posted only one topic, the one about the flags, then stopped posting altogether in mid October. Either way, I think it should be worth checking out. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 18:05, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:We should not use these. I think they're just fanart. There is a page in the official companion of *early* flag designs (the names are wrong in some cases, etc. so this page of the book is an early draft and shouldn't be used as fact). However, this guy also confuses the symbols of Tauron and Leonis. I mean it's just a guy posting on a messageboard. The Citation Crusade wouldn't stand for it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::The assignment of colony and flag is obviously non-canon, but the graphics themselves are far superior to the ones we're using. We should ask him to license them to us under the CCL. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:56, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::Alternately, if he can be contacted, ask him to create corrected ones based on a CCL.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 14:40, 2 February 2006 (EST)
::Well, I've done some tweaking to our icons making them look a little crisper and sort-of rationalised the originals by QuintusCinna and the ones seen on the Sci-Fi BBS by bescincimevsim. I'll upload them soon and if you don't like them then I guess you can just revert them later. Just thought I'd help out, is all. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 00:12, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:::I think they're an improvement. Thank you, Kahran. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:57, 17 March 2006 (CST)

==Colonial Flags==
The Colonial Flags, as listed on this page, have been matched to their colonies based solely on on-screen evidence. Given their dubious veracity on other matters, I am not prepared to take the Official Magazine's word for it over what we've actually seen — at least not without a discussion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:Okay, then you should know that the flags also match what is written in the Battlestar Galactica The Official Companion. It has a page for Colonial Day that lists the flasg for each colony and it's the smae as the Magazine flag listings, so that's two sources that support my listings as opposed the shoddy on-screen evidence from the episodes. --Ltcrashdown 22:30, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've examined the footage of Colonial Day and QuintusCinna's arguments, and concluded that they aren't very strong. I'm going to revert this back to your version. Do you have a cite for the Official Companion as well? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:35, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::Here's the info: Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion by David Bassom, page 86, Published by Titan Books, London, August 2005
:::By the way, what was QuintusCinna's source?--Ltcrashdown 22:39, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::::For the colonies at issue here, it was mostly conjecture on his part. I remembered his argument having more basis than it actually did. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 8 February 2006 (EST)

== We are Gemenese if you Please! ==

I think the way this works (and once we nail it down, we should put it on S&C, probably) is that someone ''from'' Gemenon is a Gemenon, but the adjective for describing them is Gemenese. So, like, a nice Gemenese Rug or something. This is a throwback to the language of Gemenese in TOS, I think. Now... Is someone from Caprica Caprican and "a Caprica" or does that one match the adjective (like I'm from Texas, thus I am Texan and "a Texan" if that helps)? Whatcha think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:07, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== Aerilon? ==

Unless someone cites a source on this spelling correction, I think this needs to be reverted. Anyone? --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 19:46, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:Seems like other people are using it: http://s9.invisionfree.com/Ragnar_Anchorage/index.php?showtopic=658 the same way. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:52, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::It is also on http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/ships/ships/ on the Celestra bio. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:55, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::: Well, the forum link is inconclusive, as the poster using that spelling questions it himself and is not, quite frankly, a reliable source. The SciFi.com link is more helpful, but still doesn't help much. They have two different spellings for a couple of the Colonies still around their site, so we can't really trust them on this. Does anyone have a copy of the various writings spawned from the show? If the companions and magazines and scifi.com all agreed, even though none of those are on our big list of accepted sources, I'd consider that a pretty good indication that we'd been misspelling it this whole time. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:30, 20 March 2006 (CST)

==Spelling==
This topic keeps coming up, and our spelling conventions do not seem to match the ones generally used throughout fandom, so I want to have a definitive location for sources on spelling used here. Our emphasis, as always, is on citation and accuracy.

The names of six of the colonies can be seen fully spelled out in the episode "Colonial Day". There should be no room for debate on these.
<gallery>
Image:sp-canceron.jpg|Canceron
Image:sp-caprica.jpg|Caprica
Image:sp-gemenon.jpg|Gemenon
Image:sp-leonis.jpg|Leonis
Image:sp-sagittaron.jpg|Sagittaron
Image:sp-virgon.jpg|Virgon
</gallery>

We can also see the first three letters of "Picon": 
[[Image:sp-picon.jpg|sp-picon.jpg]] 
There's no serious controversy here, as no other spelling has been proposed for that colony.

Although not visible in the episode, the spelling of Scorpia can be clearly seen in a high-resolution [http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/1.11/imagepages/image6.html publicity still]: 
[[Image:sp-scorpia.jpg|150px]] 
This is complicated by [[Helena Cain]]'s reference to the "Scorpian Fleet Shipyards" in the episode "[[Pegasus (episode)]]". [[Talk:The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Scorpion vs. Scorpia|Extensive discussion]] on battlestar wiki concluded that the visual evidence should be deferred to, and also suggested that she may have been using "Scorpian" as an adjectival form of the colony's name. This was supported by Michelle Forbes's use of a reduced vowel in the final syllable, while other colony names used throughout the series have used the fully realized vowel /ɑ/.

The names "Aquaria" and "Tauron" were given in "[[Colonial Day]]" and "[[Pegasus (episode)]]", respectively. There is no serious debate on their spelling.

Very little evidence is available regarding the colony corresponding to Libra. Neither it nor its citizens have ever been mentioned in the miniseries or 33 episodes aired to date, nor has RDM mentioned the colony in his blog. SciFi.com's website refers to the [[Space Park]] as being of "Libran" registry, but it is unclear whether this is meant to be the nominal or adjectival form of the colony's name (see below).

The name of the colony corresponding to Aries was named as {{IPA|'ɛɹ.lɑn}} in "[[Bastille Day]]". Two spellings have been proposed. It is worth noting that the second vowel, which is the one at issue, is not actually pronounced by actress Mary McDonnell.

'''AERILON''' 
'''Official Use'''

The SciFi.com website refers to the [[Celestra]] as being of "Aerilon" registry. This is apparently the nominal form, despite the anomalous use of the adjectival "Caprica" on the "Colonial One" entry on the same webpage. (The adjectival forms of Scorpia (Scorpian, established in "[[Pegasus (episode)]]") and Tauron (Tauranian, established in "[[Resistance]]") are not used.)

RDM uses this spelling in a [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/#a000016 blog entry] dated 30 January, 2005.

'''Fan Use'''
*Google returns approximately [http://www.google.com/search?q=aerilon 400 matches] for this spelling.
*This spelling is used by transcript website SadGeezer.com.

'''AERELON''' 
'''Fan Use'''
*Google returns approximately [http://www.google.com/search?q=aerelon 300 matches] for this spelling.
*[http://tviv.org/wiki/Battlestar_Galactica_(2003)/The_Twelve_Colonies TV IV]
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:34, 23 March 2006 (CST)

== Should I Add This Or Not? ==

On Wikipedia there is a lot more information on the Twelve Colonies, including founders and names of capital cities. Should I add this information to the corresponding colony section on this page or is this information that doesn't belong on this wiki? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 11:04, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
:We're pretty strict about [[BW:CITE|citations]] around here. Unless we can find official sources to back up that info, it doesn't belong here. I'm pretty sure that it hasn't been officially established names for all Twelve Lords of Kobol (if there are exactly twelve, as RDM was a bit vague on this), and I've got no idea where they are getting the capitol names from. If there is an official source, we'd be good, but it feels like this may be derived from fan fiction (which would have NO place on this article) or at best from novelizations/alternate continuity (which could at least be argued, but is still suspect). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:17, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
::Understood. I just reviewed the article and it said that the names were non-canonical. In that case, Wikipedia's information has NO place in this article. If the characters start listing off this information in the next seasons (which I SERIOUSLY doubt they will at this point), I can put it in. However, I want to note that I found confirmation for Aerelon's capital (including a photo) and the colony description on Google. You have to type "Aerelon" (make sure it's spelled EXACTLY like that) and then scroll down the top ten results page. The title is simply "Aerelon" and is located two results under the listing for our own wiki. The description starts with "Capital: Maegera"--[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 19:24, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
:::That's a fan site. Please read over the [[BW:CITE|Citation Jihad]] for a list of official sources. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:00, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

Thank you no end, Homeworld616, for pointing out this grievous error on Wikipedia. *One person* posted their own fanfic into there: they even left a warning label: "These following sections contain equal parts fanon and canon.".....er, it is impossible to be both "fanon" and "canon" at the same time. ----->'''I have personally deleted all of this fanfic from Wikipedia, and warned the user that posted it'''. Sorry, but they get all kinds on wikipedia. Thanks for asking us and bringing it to our attention 616--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:45, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

:No problem, Merovingian. It's my pleasure to help make Wikipedia and its associated sites better for all. I can't believe someone actually tried to pass their fanfic off as fact. Oh well, so long as it has been deleted. But we need to watch for other users posting crap around here. Wikipedia's Twelve Colonies may just be the beginning. To quote Shakespeare from ''The Tempest,'' "what is past is prologue." --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 01:12, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Notes on Culture ==

All right, has anyone noticed that in the Colonies, virtually everything that would be a rectangle here on Earth (pictureframe, sheet of paper, etc.) is a ''hexagon''? To cite some examples, in the [[Miniseries]] Roslin is handed a slip of paper describing the Cylon attack on a networked Battlestar. That slip is a hexagon. Adama's picture frame of him, Zak and Lee is also a hexagon. Even the computers are hexagons. Now, a hexagon has 6 sides (half of 12, which is seemingly a symbolic number in the series), and is a practical shape for use (12-gons would be stupid for paper) so does anyone think that the hexagon is some kind of symbolic shape for the Colonials?

Also, in the [[Delphi Museum of the Colonies]], Starbuck is walking past display cases full of ancient pottery. Culture is transmitted in the form of art and artifacts, so while this may be trivial I feel like it is worth noting.

In addition to this, notice how Elosha's priestess garment is pretty eccentric, while Brother Cavil's uniform is a plain black cassock with some purple decorations. A difference of garb choice for priestesses and priests, perhaps?

Furthermore, in the [[Miniseries]], notice those Caprican mothers carting their babies around the city in those oversized plastic baby carriages that look like they provide too much protection for the tots. Perhaps a link to the Scripture statement saying that life is precious and should be protected? I can't think of any other way for the carriage manufacturer to be willing to put extra money into obtaining more plastic resources for the increased carriage size and safety. No wait, lawsuits... But that still wouldn't explain the supersized babymobiles and extra costs and materials needed for manufacturing.

Cereals! In [[Sacrifice]] (I think, I'm not sure), Roslin tells an aggressive Billy Keikaya, "Looks like someone ate their Wheaties today." Okay, so...General Mills was actually a ''Colonial'' corporation and they imported it to Earth while we weren't looking. This might just imply that the Colonials also ate Cascadian Farm, Frescarini, Lucky Charms, Chex Mix, Cheerios, Hamburger Helper...the list goes on. Either that or I'm just making a big deal over some trivial prodcut placement.

Finally, in TOS, most of the buildings in Caprica (with exception of Long Beach City Hall where the episode was filmed), were pyramids. In the RDM series, there aren't as many pyramids, but there are a couple in Caprica City (let me get the image). Since there is circumstantial evidence that life began on Earth, does anyone think these pyramids could be a link with the Egyptians, who already had a thriving civilization and the Giza pyramids built by the time Greece (and perhaps the Kobol-sect) became an ancient powerhouse?

Taking all of this into consideration, should I initiate a "Culture" section for the Twelve Colonies (RDM)? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 14:36, 3 July 2006 (CDT)
:According the the episode transcript...
:'''[[Laura Roslin]]''': Someone took their vitamins this morning. 
:'''[[Billy Keikeya]]''': Yeah, I don't know what got into me. 
:--''[[Sacrifice]]''
:There's an "[[Arts and Literature of the Twelve Colonies|arts and lit article]]" under construction for the 12 Colonies seriesthat might be a home for some of the architecture, pottery, etc. notes. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:08, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks, Steelviper. I'll look into that. --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 15:18, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

[[Image:Mini-Caprica City.jpg]]
Here's the image. Look to the FAR right hand side and note the two pyramid office buildings, one with steep lateral faces and the other looking kind of like a glass reproduction of the Giza pyramids. --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 14:41, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

Arts and Lit is where we're working on that. Note, that it's really just an in-joke from the Miniseries: they had to "cut corners" on the production due to budget restraints, so it started out as a joke that they were "cutting corners" on everything. The problem was, as this series progressed this became a logistical nightmare, as literally hours of work had to be spent into doing this, i.e. stacks of books in Cain's quarters. As for the image....I'm sorry but it's too vague to actually make out if it's anything. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:24, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

== Links ==

Folks, I've noticed there's some ambiguity going on with the Wiki reference links, and I think we should probably straighten them out. In short, do we want to link to the astrological sign, or the constellations? I note this because I just cleaned up a few of the links before realizing this should be discussed, as (for example), someone had [[Wikipedia:Capricorn|Capricorn]] point to the WP page there, which is a disambig page, instead of [[Wikipedia:Capricorn (astrology)|Capricorn (astrology)]] or [[Wikipedia:Capricornus|Capricorn'''us''']] (the constellation; note the spelling, as there's at least one more constellation that swings this way - [[Wikipedia:Scorpius|Scorpius]]). Just a thought or two to muddy the waters further. ^_^--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 22:00, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
:I'd prefer to link to the constellations. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:08, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Done and done, then.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:44, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

Talk:The Twelve Colonies of Kobol/Archive3

2006-11-20T14:49:33Z

LucentPhoenix: /* Residence vs. Tribe */

==Question==

Do we know that the colonies are necessarily on 12 worlds? Can someone find a reference? It's clear that virgon and caprica are in the same star system, and that each colony can have more than one city, (dephi, in caprica), but is there some reason why two colonies can't be on the same planet?

==Merge proposal==

This article, and the articles for each of the Twelve Colonies, are all very short, and I don't see any of them expanding substantially in the near future. I think it would make for a nice looking, meaty article if we merged in each of the individual colony articles with this one under first-level headings. How say you all? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:50, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I know this looks weird and kind of dumb. I'm still fiddling. It's easy to revert if the whole thing ends up being too hideous to bear. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:17, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

[[image:Banner_unknown1.gif|left|75px]][[image:Banner_unknown2.gif|right|75px]]
: I like the idea and whats up now. If we knew more about each colony, it would look nicer, but until then I think this is fine. Now... What to do with these other two banners? Now, the two colonies without banners are Leo and Aquarius, the lion and the water-bearer. Both of these symbols could be a water-bearer, I guess, but I think the black and white one looks like he has whisters, there and that shape at the top looks more ear-like. That would leave the blue and red one to be the water bearer, which I think makes sense enough. Think we could drop those in with a note as to their speculative nature, or best not to? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:27, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::I'm leaving this one up to [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]], our resident flag-hunter. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The two colonies without banners is Aquarius and whatever the colonial name is for Libra. I saw in the mini-series they mentioned a colony called "ICON" alongside of "PICON" so I'm a little weirded out. As for Leonis, that flag has been found. I did a picture search in google for the zodiac's constellation and found the flag's symbol looked exactly like what I have designated. I can't remember, but I believe the constellation for Libra looked quite similar to the black one. Since we don't yet know as of yet what is the name for the Libra colony, I have left it blank. [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]

:At least we know it isn't Ophiuchi or something. Roslin identifies Libra in the Tomb of Athena map room, although she doesn't give its modern name. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:59, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Realizing that it's still being worked on, it looks awful right now. You can't tell which banner goes to which colony, for one thing. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 08:30, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Personally, I don't really like the combination of all 12 colonies together either since there is no set border and down the road we will have pictures relating to each colony. This will make it slower to download. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 12:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The problem, in my opinion, is that there's little to do at the main article other than simply list the colonies, and the majority of the individual colonies are stub-like in length. As for images, Caprica is the only planet we've seen thus far and probably the only one we're likely to see (unless we get Scorpion in a flashback in Pegasus or something). One thing we can do, if it becomes necessary, is link to full-length articles from just underneath the first-level headings.

:As for the banners, I agree that they could be confusing but I rather like them right now. Do either of you think it coudl be re-arranged in a better manner (maybe if they didn't alternate sides? But then there'd be a lot more wasted space)? Or is it a lost cause in your opinions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:20, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::Yeah, you could try putting all the banners on the right. See how it looks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 14:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::There, that's what they look like right-aligned. Frankly, I think they look better alternating. I don't find it confusing, and the wasted space bugs me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::Hate to say it, but I don't like it at all. The banners overlap with the previous colony's "box", there are no clear markers indicating where one section begins and another ends, it just looks bad. (Part of the problem is that we don't have much information about many of the colonies at this point.) --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:07, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::It'd be better if we could insert a line across the entire page, and have the colony name under that line, along with the banner on the right. Then each colony would have a neat, easily readable section. I don't know if Wiki markup is capable of that though. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:10, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::I still think it's a better option than thirteen articles that are completely insubstantial on their own. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I added captions to some of the banners, and in the process deleted some of the <nowiki><div></nowiki> markup. Wikipedia recommends against using HTML ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_markup_with_HTML]), and I've been trying to learn from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_image_syntax Extended image syntax] page. I can't figure out why a new section like <nowiki>==Caprica==</nowiki> doesn't appear on the same level as its banner. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:09, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:Ah ha! The wonders of '''<nowiki> </nowiki>'''! What do you guys think of the formatting now? --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:28, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::My HTML/CSS was not used lightly. That's really the one way to get the banners at the section heading level as I did. Frankly this seems like a more cumbersome version of my right-aligned attempt. I really dislike the caption boxes, too.
::I have a new idea: Rather than use the (rather long) banners, we can grab the icons from each, along with the background colors, and use them. I've created nine high-resolution versions from QuintusCinna's originals, which you can link to below:
::[http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/aerelon.png Aerelon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/canceron.png Canceron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/caprica.png Caprica], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/gemenon.png Gemenon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/picon.png Picon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/sagittaron.png Sagittaron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpion.png Scorpion], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/tauron.png Tauron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/virgon.png Virgon]
::These could be scaled down to almost any size and still look nice. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:35, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Without caption boxes, it's not clear what the banners are. I know it seems self-explanatory to us, but for someone who's never seen them before, it's not. I'll take a look at the icons in a bit. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 17:03, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I find repeating "This is the Banner of X" to be tedious, and the red background to be jarring. Couldn't we simply note that the banner/icon/flag/colors of the colony is provided to the right? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:06, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Peter. You've saved us all. As I said earlier, I liked it when the banner appeared to be hanging from the red line under its colony's name. I share Peter's dislike for tons of white space and alternating the sides seemed to create the least of that. However, if we just had the emblem and colors from each flag, we could do it below the red line as Fang seems to like, and not have this huge, long graphic. Maybe we can then link the full banner pics and, if we get enough information that a given colony's article wouldn't be a stub, we can display it there. Does all that make sense? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I like it with banners to right, with titling, albeit a little redundant. Not sure how to deal with the "white space" of many areas, but we're really not going to get them filled until we get more data, so that is that. I feel it's informative enough as it stands, but I'll leave the formatting arguments alone. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:52, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

==Which flag is which?==
A close viewing of [[Colonial Day]] indicates that the flag currently labeled as [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]] belongs to Safiya Sanne's seat - either Picon or Leonis; and that the black flag belongs to Robin Wenutu's seat (Canceron), and that VIrgon's flag is a white field with a green inner stripe and yellow outer stripe. I'm curious as to how QuintusCinna came to his conclusion that the delegates aren't seated at their apprporiate flags, since I don't know any other evidence linking particular flags to colonies. I guess Scorpion is pretty obvious, though. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:34, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Don't trust the banners lining up with those they represent in [[Colonial Day]]. The reason I say this is that [[Tom Zarek]] is in one area of the room and his very obvious banner for Sagitarron is completely in another area. This is the same for Virgon's banner and their representative. There are 3 different questions I carry thanks to the shows I have watched. In the mini-series we see the banners are in this order from left to right: [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Virgon|Virgon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], Scorpion, Aquaria(?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]], Libra (?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Sagittaron|Sagittaron]], [[Canceron]] (?), [[Leonis]]. Is this in the order that the colonies signed the unification treaty or is the order for the flags random or is it in the order they were nuked? Though I am sure the producers, directors, and such just put them up in random order, it is now a sense of fact for the show. If we were to believe they were placed up there, the banners must be up there in some order that is according to military protocol for flag bearing. In Colonial Day I add 2 more questions. We see that the banners are behind the delegates in a different order than in the mini-series. This means they were either a) put up randomly or b) have a separate purpose than those shown at the end of the mini-series (nuked, treaty order, or other). Then we see that the delegates are put in a different order than the banners behind them. The Gemenon delegate is clearly seen toward the middle and the Gemenon flag is clearly in a different area. The same questions come up for the delegates: are they randomly placed or is there reason. It's not alphabetical, and placements of delegates and banners in every society is always in some sort of traditional order. I hope that the Battlestar Galactica producers, writers, and such will be able to answer this though I suspect they won't because they have REAL lives.

As for the Picon flag, the constellation looks quite similar to the picon banner and the same goes for Tauron's with Taurus. I have no doubt with those. The Libra's icon can be seen in this picture http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HorseAstrology/AstrologySymbol.gif 2 clockwise from Sagittarius.
--[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 1:12, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

==New Icons==
What do you think? We might consider making them smaller and removing the image frame and caption, but I'd also be happy leaving them as they are. It's nice to have a place to note that some of the symbols are only tentatively identified with the colonies in question. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:It looks fine. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 09:11, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I like 'em. I'd say smaller, though. Of course... I have my thumb settings to 300px so that screen shots are large enough to be intelligible, so smaller to me would be about 150px or 100px. I also like alternating for balance, but that's just me. I alternate right a left in other articles, too. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:21, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

I have a set of colonial glyphs that were lifted from a copy of the voting ballots used in Lay Down Your Burdens Pt1. I can upload both the cap of the ballot and the vector graphics file of the glyphs. I've already released the glyphs for public use, so I have no problem with their being used here. The ballot image I have has Baltar's name blurred out, as that was a spoiler at the time the image was released. The image orginally came from the Reproduction Props Forum, where a member got hold of one of the actual props used in the episode. --[[User:Scotchfairy|Scotchfairy]] 14:54, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

:Thanks for the offer. It would be nice to get a look at them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:16, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
::Okay, I've uploaded the four jpgs I have of the voting ballot. They still reside on my server at the moment. If you decide to include them in the wiki, I'll upload them to the database. 
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotSm.jpg Small Image of Ballot Front]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotFront.jpg Large Image of Ballot Front]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotBack.jpg Large Image of Ballot Back]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotTop.jpg Very Large Image of Ballot Top]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/ColonialGlyphs.gif My version of the colonial glyphs (gif)]
:: If you want to play with the Photoshop custom shapes file, it's [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/LeesBSGshapes.csh.zip here (zip)]. [[User:Scotchfairy|Scotchfairy]] 00:25, 2 August 2006 (CDT)

==Residence vs. Tribe==

I think there's a difference between "where a character currently makes their residence" and "what colony they are from". I think "what colony they are from" means "what ''tribe''" they are. For example, Dualla could have been away from Sagittaron for years and lived on another Colony, but she's still from the Sagittaron tribe. In "Bastille Day", she describes herself as "a Sagittaron", not "someone ''from'' Sagittaron".

Anyway, I also think that non-canonical information from SkyOne website should not be used in assuming Stabuck may be from Picon, not Caprica. We should wait until this is said on either the Scifi.com official site, or on screen.
--Ricimer, 16 Sept, 2005

:Actually, Dee did say "I'm from Sagittaron". [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:56, 10 July 2006 (CDT)

::I agree. Under the [[The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29#Natives_2|Caprica Natives]] section, it lists Gaius Baltar, but then clearly states "(Born on Sagittaron)." If that is the case, then he is a native of ... drumroll please ... '''Sagittaron''', not Caprica. He may have resided there, but he was a Sagitton.

::I think this should be changed, but didn't want to just change it without some discussion. Unless there is a good reason given, though, I'm going to make the change. /[[User:LucentPhoenix|LucentPhoenix]] 08:26, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==Outposts==

Ricimer wrote: ''The Colonials actually expanded their sphere of influence over time beyond the original Twelve Colonies to include several outposts, bases, and mining colonies (such as [[Troy]]) in other systems ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html| RDM, January 30, 2005]), though they were apparently minor extensions of the original Twelve Colonies rather than independently functioning worlds in their own right, and when the Cylons overwhelmed the Twelve Colonies themselves no mention is even explicity made about these minor worlds, seeming to take it as a given that the destruction of the Twelve Colonies would equal the destruction of humanity, and that these outposts were not significant enough to pose any challenge to the Cylon fleet.''

RDM's actual comments are:

:Q: "Did the colonies have outposts, bases, or trade partners outside of the 12 colonies. Did they even explore other systems. The colonies could have had observatories, listening posts, or even scientific research teams exploring other planets beyond the colonial system(s). They could encounter any of these which could lead to supplies, raw materials, food, fuel etc. "

:RDM: I think that's probably true, but part of our premise is that the fleet has Jumped far out into unexplored space in an effort to elude the Cylons, so we won't be encountered any other outposts or colonies.

I think that's a very weak confirmation, and if we're going to include it here, it should reflect the vagueness of RDM's actual comment. I have replaced it with the following:

:Ronald D. Moore has suggested that the Colonies probably maintained some minor observatories and listening posts in outlying star systems, but it is unlikely that ''Galactica'' will encounter them in the course of the series. ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html#a000016|RDM, January 30, 2005])

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 15 December 2005 (EST)

==Scorpion vs. Scorpia==

At present, we have a name card from "[[Colonial Day]]" and the name of the [[Scorpia Traveler]] in favor of "Scorpia", and the [[Scorpion Fleet Shipyards]] in favor of "Scorpion". Ricimer, if you want to make a case for "Scorpion" over "Scorpia", you ''must'' cite an episode quote, and I will not produce it for you. Your uncited revisions are anathema to our goal of accuracy. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:34, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:I am sorry, I was in a hurry to get out and didn't have time to wip out my copy of the series companion. On p.86 of "Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion", by David Bassom, there is an "''early'' concept sketch of the flags of the Twele Colonies"; On this, it lists the names "Scorpia", but also "Libran", and "Aquarion". "[[Colonial Day]]" established that these two Colonies are in fact named "Libra" and "Aquaria", in dialog, etc. This evidence has led me to believe that "Scorpia" was amongst some early ideas for Colony names that were thrown around in the early stages of production, but which were later changed; however, the art and props department wasn't notified of the switch, or made a mistake, etc. I'm also inclined to this line of thinking because the props in this scene feature several now-infamous goofs, such as the switcheroo between Canceron, Picon, Leonis, etc., etc. As for the evidence from "Scorpia Traveler", there's also a "Gemini" ship, as well as mispelling etc. which have led me to the belief that certain ship names are just meant for asthetic value and do not necessarily reflect the actual name of their home Colony. In "Home, Part II" it was established that the Colonies used to have "ancient names" which align more closely to the signs of the Zodiac, but which over the millenia have drifted away into their present form. Perhaps some ship captains just felt like naming their vessels after the more ancient names. I don't know. But the main points remain: A) Ship names aren't very reliable as an information source, B) this scene had many goofs in it, C) the official companion shows that this was an early name thrown around, but later abandoned, and several of these early names have been disproven by this point. Therefore, I think "Scorpion Fleet Shipyards", the first ''prominent'' mention of Scorpion/Scorpia, taken with the above evidence, proves that the true name of the Colony is "Scorpion". What's everyone else's consensus? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:24, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I'm with Ricimer on this one.--Zareck Rocks 15:04, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I agree with Ricimer, as Cain's mention of the "scorpion fleet shipyards" is the only canonical reference to place when it comes to the scorpio-related colony. It has also been shown, as Ricimer mentions above, that the ship names seem to be variations of the colony names i.e. [[Gemenon Taveller]] and the [[Gemini]]. So we can't necessarily glean the name of the scorpio-related colony from the [[Scorpia Traveller]], for there may also be a Scorpion Traveller.
::However, unless someone can verify this with subtitles, Cain could be saying Scorpi''an'' fleet shipyards, rather than Scorpi''on'', thereby inferring that the colony name is Scorpia (I dare to speculate that the Caprica would have it's own Caprican fleet shipyards(if it did indeed have shipyards)). I don't have the DVDs, as they're not yet available in Canada, but someone should really check this, it could answer this question --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 16:20, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::I've grepped the TwizTV logs, and the Scorpia/Scorpion colony has never been referred to apart from the instances we've already listed. So, here's what that means:
:::#We have a mention of the "Scorpia Traveler", which matches the "Gemenon Traveler". "Freighter Gemini" is a TOS reference.
:::#We have a comment that might be the "Scorpion" shipyards, or the "Scorpian" shipyards.
:::#We have a clear and readable screenshot of the name of the colony.
:::We should not "correct" the name of the colony to what we think it "should" be, when we have unequivocal evidence staring us in the face. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::I'm sorry, but it doesn't really seem like the above evidence is "unequivocal". Thankfully, I think "Resurrection Ship" will make further mention of ''Pegasus' '' flight from the shipyards, and we will probably hear the name again. Best to wait until then. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:05, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::Let me clarify. We have at least seen "Scorpia" spelled out. We have never even ''heard'' "Scorpion", except in a context that might easily have been "Scorpian". In my opinion, the two options here are "Scorpia" or "We don't know". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::Wait a minute, someone out there has got to have the DVD set of the second season, we should be able to determine the definitive name of the scorpio colony from that. Although, I suppose, Peter, that you're suggesting we leave it at Scorpia until someone can check the subtitles. That sounds fine with me. --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 22:56, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::How will that tell us definitively? It was only mentioned in "Pegasus", in the ambiguous dialogue mentioned above. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:00, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::Like I said, we stand a good chance of hearing it again in the very next two episodes, so I suggest we leave things as they are, and reach a final decision after "Resurrection Ship, Part II". Although we could get subtitles from the DVD, subtitles can be notoriously innaccurate when it comes to the finer points of spelling, i.e. Scorpion vs. Scorpian. Perhaps we could rewatch Pegasus, and check the inflection that Michelle Forbes uses; I ''think'' she clearly said "-ion" (as opposed to "-ian"). I'll check again; however, even hearing the dialog personally, I doubt this will give a DEFINATIVE answer in ANY form as the actress could have been just slurring it. I don't know. Well, I'll check for the sake of checking. Again, I think we should "wait and see" on this one. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:11, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::I just watched the episode and the subtitles (however inaccurate) do say "Scorpion." It does sound like Forbes says more of an -ion than -ian. Just my two cents. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:30, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Thank you Talos. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:04, 26 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Scorpion would be pronounced with the full vowel "{{IPA|piɑn}}, while "Scorpian" would use a reduced vowel, {{IPA|piən}} or {{IPA|piɨn}}. The latter is what I hear, although Ricimer is right that it could just be "slurring". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:09, 26 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::::I've isolated Michelle Forbes's pronunciation of "Scorpi_n" and uploaded it [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpian.wav here]. Unfortunately, the last syllable is basically whispered and cannot be analyzed for vowel formants. It does sound very reduced to me, however. This is not usually the case for Picon, Gemenon, etc. which are almost always realized with full vowels.
:::::::::::Note, by the way, that the ''animal'' spelled "Scorpion" would be pronounced the same as the adjective "Scorpian", while a colony called Scorpion would be pronounced "Skor-pee-on". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:05, 28 December 2005 (EST)

Final call for objections before I move the relevant articles. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:23, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

== Location ==

I didn't want to get into a revert war, so... How, exactly, are the colonies' positions indicated in the Tomb of Athena? I just watched that ep last night and I don't remember any arrows or name tags... If the theory is that the colonies are inside the constellation that shares their name, then I think I'll have to disagree. Not possible. The zodiac constellations are spread about in our sky in a circle, meaning they're not very near each other at all (so if "the Colonies" can be considered some single area of space that's small enough to go from one end to another inside months they need to be closer than a large ring of space encircling Earth) and all the stars in a constellation aren't even necessarily near each other. --[[User:Day|Day]] 10:42, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I don't think the positions of the Twelve Colonies are indicated at all by the tomb of Athena. It's just a map to Earth (Earth being the only spot where those constellations would appear in that configuration). It is interesting that would mean that there isn't a direct correlation between the constellations and the colonies that they are named after... (other than as a rememberance of where they came from, kind of). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:50, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:The fact of the matter is that the Tomb of Athena holographic map to Earth shows constellations made of the symbols of the Twelve Tribees/Colonies; these constellations are '''entirely arbitrary'''; that is, they were designated purely because they resemble the symbols of the Colonies; each planet of the 12 is in ''no way'' in each constellation. Besides, that would mean they'd often end up in separate galaxies. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::Well, no, not separate galaxies, but further apart from each other than each is from earth. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:34, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::: My point exactly, Peter. Well said. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:05, 5 January 2006 (EST)

Can we take the part about all the colonies orbiting the same star out of the article? I think it's pretty clear that they're all separate systems, unless someone has different information. --[[User:Bahamut|Bahamut]] 02:42, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:Why do you think that's clear? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:59, 12 March 2006 (CST)

::Mostly because of the use of FTL technology, but also because of the improbability of a star having twelve planets that can support human life. It's discussed elsewhere in the Wiki that it's likely they're all separate systems. Maybe instead of taking it out altogether we should add a caveat about how it's disputed or at least link to the other discussion? --[[User:Bahamut|Bahamut]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Upon re-watching the Miniseries (IMHO anyway) all references are given as hours from caprica, but when the war alert first goes off and Cmdr Adama asks to "scan the system" (circa 48mins in) the report is given that "Now, looks like the main fight is shaping up over here near Virgon's orbit" and a few lines latter "If we can keep Virgon between us and the battle". Which to me means that Virgon, Caprica and Ragnar (a gas giant) are all in the same solar system. thoughts anyone? [[User:Pickle UK|Pickle UK]] 00:45, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:I think this is a settled issue. From Moore's blog, [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/#a000016 30 January 2005]:
::Does it make sense that there would be a star system with 12 inhabitable planets? Not really, but that was in the original and at some point I decided to run with that as another nod to the old show.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:56, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:::An important note on this topic is that among young stars, they tend to be grouped in what is known as "stellar associations" which are several stars that are gravitational bound together by virtue of them all being born at the same time in the same stellar nursery and all being within a light year of each other; hence you could call them a system. Now, over time as they get more to our Sun's age, they will disapate over a great distance and no longer be associated, but this is over 100s of millions to billions of years. Generally it is considered unlikely that such young stars bear planets that possess life but does not rule out the idea that they have planets... earth-like planets. Therefore, a stellar association, possessing 12 or more stars....all within a light year of each other...--[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 01:40, 10 April 2006 (PST)

::::Honestly, this is the sort of speculation that impedes my enjoyment of the show. It doesn't matter, and I don't care. Feel free to speculate as you will, but I think the whole debate is distracting and unworthy of more than a footnote. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:37, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

== More on flags ==

I found this a while ago. A user on Sci-Fi.com's messageboard going by "bescincimevsim" has made some incredible renderings of all twelve colonial flags that, in my oppinion look very good and accurate to what has been seen on the show. It might be worth checking out the [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1310569&Searchpage=2&Main=1310569&Words=bescincimevsim&topic=&Search=true#Post1310569 topic here]. I ''think'' they might be avalible for free use, but then again the guy doesn't seem to be available for contact anymore a he posted only one topic, the one about the flags, then stopped posting altogether in mid October. Either way, I think it should be worth checking out. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 18:05, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:We should not use these. I think they're just fanart. There is a page in the official companion of *early* flag designs (the names are wrong in some cases, etc. so this page of the book is an early draft and shouldn't be used as fact). However, this guy also confuses the symbols of Tauron and Leonis. I mean it's just a guy posting on a messageboard. The Citation Crusade wouldn't stand for it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::The assignment of colony and flag is obviously non-canon, but the graphics themselves are far superior to the ones we're using. We should ask him to license them to us under the CCL. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:56, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::Alternately, if he can be contacted, ask him to create corrected ones based on a CCL.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 14:40, 2 February 2006 (EST)
::Well, I've done some tweaking to our icons making them look a little crisper and sort-of rationalised the originals by QuintusCinna and the ones seen on the Sci-Fi BBS by bescincimevsim. I'll upload them soon and if you don't like them then I guess you can just revert them later. Just thought I'd help out, is all. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 00:12, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:::I think they're an improvement. Thank you, Kahran. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:57, 17 March 2006 (CST)

==Colonial Flags==
The Colonial Flags, as listed on this page, have been matched to their colonies based solely on on-screen evidence. Given their dubious veracity on other matters, I am not prepared to take the Official Magazine's word for it over what we've actually seen — at least not without a discussion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:Okay, then you should know that the flags also match what is written in the Battlestar Galactica The Official Companion. It has a page for Colonial Day that lists the flasg for each colony and it's the smae as the Magazine flag listings, so that's two sources that support my listings as opposed the shoddy on-screen evidence from the episodes. --Ltcrashdown 22:30, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've examined the footage of Colonial Day and QuintusCinna's arguments, and concluded that they aren't very strong. I'm going to revert this back to your version. Do you have a cite for the Official Companion as well? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:35, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::Here's the info: Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion by David Bassom, page 86, Published by Titan Books, London, August 2005
:::By the way, what was QuintusCinna's source?--Ltcrashdown 22:39, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::::For the colonies at issue here, it was mostly conjecture on his part. I remembered his argument having more basis than it actually did. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 8 February 2006 (EST)

== We are Gemenese if you Please! ==

I think the way this works (and once we nail it down, we should put it on S&C, probably) is that someone ''from'' Gemenon is a Gemenon, but the adjective for describing them is Gemenese. So, like, a nice Gemenese Rug or something. This is a throwback to the language of Gemenese in TOS, I think. Now... Is someone from Caprica Caprican and "a Caprica" or does that one match the adjective (like I'm from Texas, thus I am Texan and "a Texan" if that helps)? Whatcha think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:07, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== Aerilon? ==

Unless someone cites a source on this spelling correction, I think this needs to be reverted. Anyone? --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 19:46, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:Seems like other people are using it: http://s9.invisionfree.com/Ragnar_Anchorage/index.php?showtopic=658 the same way. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:52, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::It is also on http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/ships/ships/ on the Celestra bio. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:55, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::: Well, the forum link is inconclusive, as the poster using that spelling questions it himself and is not, quite frankly, a reliable source. The SciFi.com link is more helpful, but still doesn't help much. They have two different spellings for a couple of the Colonies still around their site, so we can't really trust them on this. Does anyone have a copy of the various writings spawned from the show? If the companions and magazines and scifi.com all agreed, even though none of those are on our big list of accepted sources, I'd consider that a pretty good indication that we'd been misspelling it this whole time. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:30, 20 March 2006 (CST)

==Spelling==
This topic keeps coming up, and our spelling conventions do not seem to match the ones generally used throughout fandom, so I want to have a definitive location for sources on spelling used here. Our emphasis, as always, is on citation and accuracy.

The names of six of the colonies can be seen fully spelled out in the episode "Colonial Day". There should be no room for debate on these.
<gallery>
Image:sp-canceron.jpg|Canceron
Image:sp-caprica.jpg|Caprica
Image:sp-gemenon.jpg|Gemenon
Image:sp-leonis.jpg|Leonis
Image:sp-sagittaron.jpg|Sagittaron
Image:sp-virgon.jpg|Virgon
</gallery>

We can also see the first three letters of "Picon": 
[[Image:sp-picon.jpg|sp-picon.jpg]] 
There's no serious controversy here, as no other spelling has been proposed for that colony.

Although not visible in the episode, the spelling of Scorpia can be clearly seen in a high-resolution [http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/1.11/imagepages/image6.html publicity still]: 
[[Image:sp-scorpia.jpg|150px]] 
This is complicated by [[Helena Cain]]'s reference to the "Scorpian Fleet Shipyards" in the episode "[[Pegasus (episode)]]". [[Talk:The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Scorpion vs. Scorpia|Extensive discussion]] on battlestar wiki concluded that the visual evidence should be deferred to, and also suggested that she may have been using "Scorpian" as an adjectival form of the colony's name. This was supported by Michelle Forbes's use of a reduced vowel in the final syllable, while other colony names used throughout the series have used the fully realized vowel /ɑ/.

The names "Aquaria" and "Tauron" were given in "[[Colonial Day]]" and "[[Pegasus (episode)]]", respectively. There is no serious debate on their spelling.

Very little evidence is available regarding the colony corresponding to Libra. Neither it nor its citizens have ever been mentioned in the miniseries or 33 episodes aired to date, nor has RDM mentioned the colony in his blog. SciFi.com's website refers to the [[Space Park]] as being of "Libran" registry, but it is unclear whether this is meant to be the nominal or adjectival form of the colony's name (see below).

The name of the colony corresponding to Aries was named as {{IPA|'ɛɹ.lɑn}} in "[[Bastille Day]]". Two spellings have been proposed. It is worth noting that the second vowel, which is the one at issue, is not actually pronounced by actress Mary McDonnell.

'''AERILON''' 
'''Official Use'''

The SciFi.com website refers to the [[Celestra]] as being of "Aerilon" registry. This is apparently the nominal form, despite the anomalous use of the adjectival "Caprica" on the "Colonial One" entry on the same webpage. (The adjectival forms of Scorpia (Scorpian, established in "[[Pegasus (episode)]]") and Tauron (Tauranian, established in "[[Resistance]]") are not used.)

RDM uses this spelling in a [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/#a000016 blog entry] dated 30 January, 2005.

'''Fan Use'''
*Google returns approximately [http://www.google.com/search?q=aerilon 400 matches] for this spelling.
*This spelling is used by transcript website SadGeezer.com.

'''AERELON''' 
'''Fan Use'''
*Google returns approximately [http://www.google.com/search?q=aerelon 300 matches] for this spelling.
*[http://tviv.org/wiki/Battlestar_Galactica_(2003)/The_Twelve_Colonies TV IV]
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:34, 23 March 2006 (CST)

== Should I Add This Or Not? ==

On Wikipedia there is a lot more information on the Twelve Colonies, including founders and names of capital cities. Should I add this information to the corresponding colony section on this page or is this information that doesn't belong on this wiki? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 11:04, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
:We're pretty strict about [[BW:CITE|citations]] around here. Unless we can find official sources to back up that info, it doesn't belong here. I'm pretty sure that it hasn't been officially established names for all Twelve Lords of Kobol (if there are exactly twelve, as RDM was a bit vague on this), and I've got no idea where they are getting the capitol names from. If there is an official source, we'd be good, but it feels like this may be derived from fan fiction (which would have NO place on this article) or at best from novelizations/alternate continuity (which could at least be argued, but is still suspect). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:17, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
::Understood. I just reviewed the article and it said that the names were non-canonical. In that case, Wikipedia's information has NO place in this article. If the characters start listing off this information in the next seasons (which I SERIOUSLY doubt they will at this point), I can put it in. However, I want to note that I found confirmation for Aerelon's capital (including a photo) and the colony description on Google. You have to type "Aerelon" (make sure it's spelled EXACTLY like that) and then scroll down the top ten results page. The title is simply "Aerelon" and is located two results under the listing for our own wiki. The description starts with "Capital: Maegera"--[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 19:24, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
:::That's a fan site. Please read over the [[BW:CITE|Citation Jihad]] for a list of official sources. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:00, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

Thank you no end, Homeworld616, for pointing out this grievous error on Wikipedia. *One person* posted their own fanfic into there: they even left a warning label: "These following sections contain equal parts fanon and canon.".....er, it is impossible to be both "fanon" and "canon" at the same time. ----->'''I have personally deleted all of this fanfic from Wikipedia, and warned the user that posted it'''. Sorry, but they get all kinds on wikipedia. Thanks for asking us and bringing it to our attention 616--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:45, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

:No problem, Merovingian. It's my pleasure to help make Wikipedia and its associated sites better for all. I can't believe someone actually tried to pass their fanfic off as fact. Oh well, so long as it has been deleted. But we need to watch for other users posting crap around here. Wikipedia's Twelve Colonies may just be the beginning. To quote Shakespeare from ''The Tempest,'' "what is past is prologue." --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 01:12, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Notes on Culture ==

All right, has anyone noticed that in the Colonies, virtually everything that would be a rectangle here on Earth (pictureframe, sheet of paper, etc.) is a ''hexagon''? To cite some examples, in the [[Miniseries]] Roslin is handed a slip of paper describing the Cylon attack on a networked Battlestar. That slip is a hexagon. Adama's picture frame of him, Zak and Lee is also a hexagon. Even the computers are hexagons. Now, a hexagon has 6 sides (half of 12, which is seemingly a symbolic number in the series), and is a practical shape for use (12-gons would be stupid for paper) so does anyone think that the hexagon is some kind of symbolic shape for the Colonials?

Also, in the [[Delphi Museum of the Colonies]], Starbuck is walking past display cases full of ancient pottery. Culture is transmitted in the form of art and artifacts, so while this may be trivial I feel like it is worth noting.

In addition to this, notice how Elosha's priestess garment is pretty eccentric, while Brother Cavil's uniform is a plain black cassock with some purple decorations. A difference of garb choice for priestesses and priests, perhaps?

Furthermore, in the [[Miniseries]], notice those Caprican mothers carting their babies around the city in those oversized plastic baby carriages that look like they provide too much protection for the tots. Perhaps a link to the Scripture statement saying that life is precious and should be protected? I can't think of any other way for the carriage manufacturer to be willing to put extra money into obtaining more plastic resources for the increased carriage size and safety. No wait, lawsuits... But that still wouldn't explain the supersized babymobiles and extra costs and materials needed for manufacturing.

Cereals! In [[Sacrifice]] (I think, I'm not sure), Roslin tells an aggressive Billy Keikaya, "Looks like someone ate their Wheaties today." Okay, so...General Mills was actually a ''Colonial'' corporation and they imported it to Earth while we weren't looking. This might just imply that the Colonials also ate Cascadian Farm, Frescarini, Lucky Charms, Chex Mix, Cheerios, Hamburger Helper...the list goes on. Either that or I'm just making a big deal over some trivial prodcut placement.

Finally, in TOS, most of the buildings in Caprica (with exception of Long Beach City Hall where the episode was filmed), were pyramids. In the RDM series, there aren't as many pyramids, but there are a couple in Caprica City (let me get the image). Since there is circumstantial evidence that life began on Earth, does anyone think these pyramids could be a link with the Egyptians, who already had a thriving civilization and the Giza pyramids built by the time Greece (and perhaps the Kobol-sect) became an ancient powerhouse?

Taking all of this into consideration, should I initiate a "Culture" section for the Twelve Colonies (RDM)? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 14:36, 3 July 2006 (CDT)
:According the the episode transcript...
:'''[[Laura Roslin]]''': Someone took their vitamins this morning. 
:'''[[Billy Keikeya]]''': Yeah, I don't know what got into me. 
:--''[[Sacrifice]]''
:There's an "[[Arts and Literature of the Twelve Colonies|arts and lit article]]" under construction for the 12 Colonies seriesthat might be a home for some of the architecture, pottery, etc. notes. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:08, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks, Steelviper. I'll look into that. --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 15:18, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

[[Image:Mini-Caprica City.jpg]]
Here's the image. Look to the FAR right hand side and note the two pyramid office buildings, one with steep lateral faces and the other looking kind of like a glass reproduction of the Giza pyramids. --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 14:41, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

Arts and Lit is where we're working on that. Note, that it's really just an in-joke from the Miniseries: they had to "cut corners" on the production due to budget restraints, so it started out as a joke that they were "cutting corners" on everything. The problem was, as this series progressed this became a logistical nightmare, as literally hours of work had to be spent into doing this, i.e. stacks of books in Cain's quarters. As for the image....I'm sorry but it's too vague to actually make out if it's anything. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:24, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

== Links ==

Folks, I've noticed there's some ambiguity going on with the Wiki reference links, and I think we should probably straighten them out. In short, do we want to link to the astrological sign, or the constellations? I note this because I just cleaned up a few of the links before realizing this should be discussed, as (for example), someone had [[Wikipedia:Capricorn|Capricorn]] point to the WP page there, which is a disambig page, instead of [[Wikipedia:Capricorn (astrology)|Capricorn (astrology)]] or [[Wikipedia:Capricornus|Capricorn'''us''']] (the constellation; note the spelling, as there's at least one more constellation that swings this way - [[Wikipedia:Scorpius|Scorpius]]). Just a thought or two to muddy the waters further. ^_^--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 22:00, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
:I'd prefer to link to the constellations. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:08, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Done and done, then.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:44, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

Talk:The Twelve Colonies of Kobol/Archive3

2006-11-20T14:49:04Z

LucentPhoenix: /* Residence vs. Tribe */

==Question==

Do we know that the colonies are necessarily on 12 worlds? Can someone find a reference? It's clear that virgon and caprica are in the same star system, and that each colony can have more than one city, (dephi, in caprica), but is there some reason why two colonies can't be on the same planet?

==Merge proposal==

This article, and the articles for each of the Twelve Colonies, are all very short, and I don't see any of them expanding substantially in the near future. I think it would make for a nice looking, meaty article if we merged in each of the individual colony articles with this one under first-level headings. How say you all? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:50, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I know this looks weird and kind of dumb. I'm still fiddling. It's easy to revert if the whole thing ends up being too hideous to bear. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:17, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

[[image:Banner_unknown1.gif|left|75px]][[image:Banner_unknown2.gif|right|75px]]
: I like the idea and whats up now. If we knew more about each colony, it would look nicer, but until then I think this is fine. Now... What to do with these other two banners? Now, the two colonies without banners are Leo and Aquarius, the lion and the water-bearer. Both of these symbols could be a water-bearer, I guess, but I think the black and white one looks like he has whisters, there and that shape at the top looks more ear-like. That would leave the blue and red one to be the water bearer, which I think makes sense enough. Think we could drop those in with a note as to their speculative nature, or best not to? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:27, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::I'm leaving this one up to [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]], our resident flag-hunter. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The two colonies without banners is Aquarius and whatever the colonial name is for Libra. I saw in the mini-series they mentioned a colony called "ICON" alongside of "PICON" so I'm a little weirded out. As for Leonis, that flag has been found. I did a picture search in google for the zodiac's constellation and found the flag's symbol looked exactly like what I have designated. I can't remember, but I believe the constellation for Libra looked quite similar to the black one. Since we don't yet know as of yet what is the name for the Libra colony, I have left it blank. [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]

:At least we know it isn't Ophiuchi or something. Roslin identifies Libra in the Tomb of Athena map room, although she doesn't give its modern name. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:59, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Realizing that it's still being worked on, it looks awful right now. You can't tell which banner goes to which colony, for one thing. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 08:30, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Personally, I don't really like the combination of all 12 colonies together either since there is no set border and down the road we will have pictures relating to each colony. This will make it slower to download. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 12:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The problem, in my opinion, is that there's little to do at the main article other than simply list the colonies, and the majority of the individual colonies are stub-like in length. As for images, Caprica is the only planet we've seen thus far and probably the only one we're likely to see (unless we get Scorpion in a flashback in Pegasus or something). One thing we can do, if it becomes necessary, is link to full-length articles from just underneath the first-level headings.

:As for the banners, I agree that they could be confusing but I rather like them right now. Do either of you think it coudl be re-arranged in a better manner (maybe if they didn't alternate sides? But then there'd be a lot more wasted space)? Or is it a lost cause in your opinions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:20, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::Yeah, you could try putting all the banners on the right. See how it looks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 14:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::There, that's what they look like right-aligned. Frankly, I think they look better alternating. I don't find it confusing, and the wasted space bugs me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::Hate to say it, but I don't like it at all. The banners overlap with the previous colony's "box", there are no clear markers indicating where one section begins and another ends, it just looks bad. (Part of the problem is that we don't have much information about many of the colonies at this point.) --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:07, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::It'd be better if we could insert a line across the entire page, and have the colony name under that line, along with the banner on the right. Then each colony would have a neat, easily readable section. I don't know if Wiki markup is capable of that though. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:10, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::I still think it's a better option than thirteen articles that are completely insubstantial on their own. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I added captions to some of the banners, and in the process deleted some of the <nowiki><div></nowiki> markup. Wikipedia recommends against using HTML ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_markup_with_HTML]), and I've been trying to learn from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_image_syntax Extended image syntax] page. I can't figure out why a new section like <nowiki>==Caprica==</nowiki> doesn't appear on the same level as its banner. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:09, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:Ah ha! The wonders of '''<nowiki> </nowiki>'''! What do you guys think of the formatting now? --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:28, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::My HTML/CSS was not used lightly. That's really the one way to get the banners at the section heading level as I did. Frankly this seems like a more cumbersome version of my right-aligned attempt. I really dislike the caption boxes, too.
::I have a new idea: Rather than use the (rather long) banners, we can grab the icons from each, along with the background colors, and use them. I've created nine high-resolution versions from QuintusCinna's originals, which you can link to below:
::[http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/aerelon.png Aerelon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/canceron.png Canceron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/caprica.png Caprica], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/gemenon.png Gemenon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/picon.png Picon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/sagittaron.png Sagittaron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpion.png Scorpion], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/tauron.png Tauron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/virgon.png Virgon]
::These could be scaled down to almost any size and still look nice. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:35, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Without caption boxes, it's not clear what the banners are. I know it seems self-explanatory to us, but for someone who's never seen them before, it's not. I'll take a look at the icons in a bit. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 17:03, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I find repeating "This is the Banner of X" to be tedious, and the red background to be jarring. Couldn't we simply note that the banner/icon/flag/colors of the colony is provided to the right? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:06, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Peter. You've saved us all. As I said earlier, I liked it when the banner appeared to be hanging from the red line under its colony's name. I share Peter's dislike for tons of white space and alternating the sides seemed to create the least of that. However, if we just had the emblem and colors from each flag, we could do it below the red line as Fang seems to like, and not have this huge, long graphic. Maybe we can then link the full banner pics and, if we get enough information that a given colony's article wouldn't be a stub, we can display it there. Does all that make sense? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I like it with banners to right, with titling, albeit a little redundant. Not sure how to deal with the "white space" of many areas, but we're really not going to get them filled until we get more data, so that is that. I feel it's informative enough as it stands, but I'll leave the formatting arguments alone. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:52, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

==Which flag is which?==
A close viewing of [[Colonial Day]] indicates that the flag currently labeled as [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]] belongs to Safiya Sanne's seat - either Picon or Leonis; and that the black flag belongs to Robin Wenutu's seat (Canceron), and that VIrgon's flag is a white field with a green inner stripe and yellow outer stripe. I'm curious as to how QuintusCinna came to his conclusion that the delegates aren't seated at their apprporiate flags, since I don't know any other evidence linking particular flags to colonies. I guess Scorpion is pretty obvious, though. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:34, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Don't trust the banners lining up with those they represent in [[Colonial Day]]. The reason I say this is that [[Tom Zarek]] is in one area of the room and his very obvious banner for Sagitarron is completely in another area. This is the same for Virgon's banner and their representative. There are 3 different questions I carry thanks to the shows I have watched. In the mini-series we see the banners are in this order from left to right: [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Virgon|Virgon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], Scorpion, Aquaria(?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]], Libra (?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Sagittaron|Sagittaron]], [[Canceron]] (?), [[Leonis]]. Is this in the order that the colonies signed the unification treaty or is the order for the flags random or is it in the order they were nuked? Though I am sure the producers, directors, and such just put them up in random order, it is now a sense of fact for the show. If we were to believe they were placed up there, the banners must be up there in some order that is according to military protocol for flag bearing. In Colonial Day I add 2 more questions. We see that the banners are behind the delegates in a different order than in the mini-series. This means they were either a) put up randomly or b) have a separate purpose than those shown at the end of the mini-series (nuked, treaty order, or other). Then we see that the delegates are put in a different order than the banners behind them. The Gemenon delegate is clearly seen toward the middle and the Gemenon flag is clearly in a different area. The same questions come up for the delegates: are they randomly placed or is there reason. It's not alphabetical, and placements of delegates and banners in every society is always in some sort of traditional order. I hope that the Battlestar Galactica producers, writers, and such will be able to answer this though I suspect they won't because they have REAL lives.

As for the Picon flag, the constellation looks quite similar to the picon banner and the same goes for Tauron's with Taurus. I have no doubt with those. The Libra's icon can be seen in this picture http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HorseAstrology/AstrologySymbol.gif 2 clockwise from Sagittarius.
--[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 1:12, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

==New Icons==
What do you think? We might consider making them smaller and removing the image frame and caption, but I'd also be happy leaving them as they are. It's nice to have a place to note that some of the symbols are only tentatively identified with the colonies in question. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:It looks fine. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 09:11, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I like 'em. I'd say smaller, though. Of course... I have my thumb settings to 300px so that screen shots are large enough to be intelligible, so smaller to me would be about 150px or 100px. I also like alternating for balance, but that's just me. I alternate right a left in other articles, too. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:21, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

I have a set of colonial glyphs that were lifted from a copy of the voting ballots used in Lay Down Your Burdens Pt1. I can upload both the cap of the ballot and the vector graphics file of the glyphs. I've already released the glyphs for public use, so I have no problem with their being used here. The ballot image I have has Baltar's name blurred out, as that was a spoiler at the time the image was released. The image orginally came from the Reproduction Props Forum, where a member got hold of one of the actual props used in the episode. --[[User:Scotchfairy|Scotchfairy]] 14:54, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

:Thanks for the offer. It would be nice to get a look at them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:16, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
::Okay, I've uploaded the four jpgs I have of the voting ballot. They still reside on my server at the moment. If you decide to include them in the wiki, I'll upload them to the database. 
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotSm.jpg Small Image of Ballot Front]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotFront.jpg Large Image of Ballot Front]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotBack.jpg Large Image of Ballot Back]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotTop.jpg Very Large Image of Ballot Top]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/ColonialGlyphs.gif My version of the colonial glyphs (gif)]
:: If you want to play with the Photoshop custom shapes file, it's [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/LeesBSGshapes.csh.zip here (zip)]. [[User:Scotchfairy|Scotchfairy]] 00:25, 2 August 2006 (CDT)

==Residence vs. Tribe==

I think there's a difference between "where a character currently makes their residence" and "what colony they are from". I think "what colony they are from" means "what ''tribe''" they are. For example, Dualla could have been away from Sagittaron for years and lived on another Colony, but she's still from the Sagittaron tribe. In "Bastille Day", she describes herself as "a Sagittaron", not "someone ''from'' Sagittaron".

Anyway, I also think that non-canonical information from SkyOne website should not be used in assuming Stabuck may be from Picon, not Caprica. We should wait until this is said on either the Scifi.com official site, or on screen.
--Ricimer, 16 Sept, 2005

:Actually, Dee did say "I'm from Sagittaron". [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:56, 10 July 2006 (CDT)

:I agree. Under the [[The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29#Natives_2|Caprica Natives]] section, it lists Gaius Baltar, but then clearly states "(Born on Sagittaron)." If that is the case, then he is a native of ... drumroll please ... '''Sagittaron''', not Caprica. He may have resided there, but he was a Sagitton.

:I think this should be changed, but didn't want to just change it without some discussion. Unless there is a good reason given, though, I'm going to make the change. /[[User:LucentPhoenix|LucentPhoenix]] 08:26, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==Outposts==

Ricimer wrote: ''The Colonials actually expanded their sphere of influence over time beyond the original Twelve Colonies to include several outposts, bases, and mining colonies (such as [[Troy]]) in other systems ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html| RDM, January 30, 2005]), though they were apparently minor extensions of the original Twelve Colonies rather than independently functioning worlds in their own right, and when the Cylons overwhelmed the Twelve Colonies themselves no mention is even explicity made about these minor worlds, seeming to take it as a given that the destruction of the Twelve Colonies would equal the destruction of humanity, and that these outposts were not significant enough to pose any challenge to the Cylon fleet.''

RDM's actual comments are:

:Q: "Did the colonies have outposts, bases, or trade partners outside of the 12 colonies. Did they even explore other systems. The colonies could have had observatories, listening posts, or even scientific research teams exploring other planets beyond the colonial system(s). They could encounter any of these which could lead to supplies, raw materials, food, fuel etc. "

:RDM: I think that's probably true, but part of our premise is that the fleet has Jumped far out into unexplored space in an effort to elude the Cylons, so we won't be encountered any other outposts or colonies.

I think that's a very weak confirmation, and if we're going to include it here, it should reflect the vagueness of RDM's actual comment. I have replaced it with the following:

:Ronald D. Moore has suggested that the Colonies probably maintained some minor observatories and listening posts in outlying star systems, but it is unlikely that ''Galactica'' will encounter them in the course of the series. ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html#a000016|RDM, January 30, 2005])

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 15 December 2005 (EST)

==Scorpion vs. Scorpia==

At present, we have a name card from "[[Colonial Day]]" and the name of the [[Scorpia Traveler]] in favor of "Scorpia", and the [[Scorpion Fleet Shipyards]] in favor of "Scorpion". Ricimer, if you want to make a case for "Scorpion" over "Scorpia", you ''must'' cite an episode quote, and I will not produce it for you. Your uncited revisions are anathema to our goal of accuracy. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:34, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:I am sorry, I was in a hurry to get out and didn't have time to wip out my copy of the series companion. On p.86 of "Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion", by David Bassom, there is an "''early'' concept sketch of the flags of the Twele Colonies"; On this, it lists the names "Scorpia", but also "Libran", and "Aquarion". "[[Colonial Day]]" established that these two Colonies are in fact named "Libra" and "Aquaria", in dialog, etc. This evidence has led me to believe that "Scorpia" was amongst some early ideas for Colony names that were thrown around in the early stages of production, but which were later changed; however, the art and props department wasn't notified of the switch, or made a mistake, etc. I'm also inclined to this line of thinking because the props in this scene feature several now-infamous goofs, such as the switcheroo between Canceron, Picon, Leonis, etc., etc. As for the evidence from "Scorpia Traveler", there's also a "Gemini" ship, as well as mispelling etc. which have led me to the belief that certain ship names are just meant for asthetic value and do not necessarily reflect the actual name of their home Colony. In "Home, Part II" it was established that the Colonies used to have "ancient names" which align more closely to the signs of the Zodiac, but which over the millenia have drifted away into their present form. Perhaps some ship captains just felt like naming their vessels after the more ancient names. I don't know. But the main points remain: A) Ship names aren't very reliable as an information source, B) this scene had many goofs in it, C) the official companion shows that this was an early name thrown around, but later abandoned, and several of these early names have been disproven by this point. Therefore, I think "Scorpion Fleet Shipyards", the first ''prominent'' mention of Scorpion/Scorpia, taken with the above evidence, proves that the true name of the Colony is "Scorpion". What's everyone else's consensus? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:24, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I'm with Ricimer on this one.--Zareck Rocks 15:04, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I agree with Ricimer, as Cain's mention of the "scorpion fleet shipyards" is the only canonical reference to place when it comes to the scorpio-related colony. It has also been shown, as Ricimer mentions above, that the ship names seem to be variations of the colony names i.e. [[Gemenon Taveller]] and the [[Gemini]]. So we can't necessarily glean the name of the scorpio-related colony from the [[Scorpia Traveller]], for there may also be a Scorpion Traveller.
::However, unless someone can verify this with subtitles, Cain could be saying Scorpi''an'' fleet shipyards, rather than Scorpi''on'', thereby inferring that the colony name is Scorpia (I dare to speculate that the Caprica would have it's own Caprican fleet shipyards(if it did indeed have shipyards)). I don't have the DVDs, as they're not yet available in Canada, but someone should really check this, it could answer this question --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 16:20, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::I've grepped the TwizTV logs, and the Scorpia/Scorpion colony has never been referred to apart from the instances we've already listed. So, here's what that means:
:::#We have a mention of the "Scorpia Traveler", which matches the "Gemenon Traveler". "Freighter Gemini" is a TOS reference.
:::#We have a comment that might be the "Scorpion" shipyards, or the "Scorpian" shipyards.
:::#We have a clear and readable screenshot of the name of the colony.
:::We should not "correct" the name of the colony to what we think it "should" be, when we have unequivocal evidence staring us in the face. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::I'm sorry, but it doesn't really seem like the above evidence is "unequivocal". Thankfully, I think "Resurrection Ship" will make further mention of ''Pegasus' '' flight from the shipyards, and we will probably hear the name again. Best to wait until then. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:05, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::Let me clarify. We have at least seen "Scorpia" spelled out. We have never even ''heard'' "Scorpion", except in a context that might easily have been "Scorpian". In my opinion, the two options here are "Scorpia" or "We don't know". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::Wait a minute, someone out there has got to have the DVD set of the second season, we should be able to determine the definitive name of the scorpio colony from that. Although, I suppose, Peter, that you're suggesting we leave it at Scorpia until someone can check the subtitles. That sounds fine with me. --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 22:56, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::How will that tell us definitively? It was only mentioned in "Pegasus", in the ambiguous dialogue mentioned above. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:00, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::Like I said, we stand a good chance of hearing it again in the very next two episodes, so I suggest we leave things as they are, and reach a final decision after "Resurrection Ship, Part II". Although we could get subtitles from the DVD, subtitles can be notoriously innaccurate when it comes to the finer points of spelling, i.e. Scorpion vs. Scorpian. Perhaps we could rewatch Pegasus, and check the inflection that Michelle Forbes uses; I ''think'' she clearly said "-ion" (as opposed to "-ian"). I'll check again; however, even hearing the dialog personally, I doubt this will give a DEFINATIVE answer in ANY form as the actress could have been just slurring it. I don't know. Well, I'll check for the sake of checking. Again, I think we should "wait and see" on this one. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:11, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::I just watched the episode and the subtitles (however inaccurate) do say "Scorpion." It does sound like Forbes says more of an -ion than -ian. Just my two cents. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:30, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Thank you Talos. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:04, 26 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Scorpion would be pronounced with the full vowel "{{IPA|piɑn}}, while "Scorpian" would use a reduced vowel, {{IPA|piən}} or {{IPA|piɨn}}. The latter is what I hear, although Ricimer is right that it could just be "slurring". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:09, 26 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::::I've isolated Michelle Forbes's pronunciation of "Scorpi_n" and uploaded it [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpian.wav here]. Unfortunately, the last syllable is basically whispered and cannot be analyzed for vowel formants. It does sound very reduced to me, however. This is not usually the case for Picon, Gemenon, etc. which are almost always realized with full vowels.
:::::::::::Note, by the way, that the ''animal'' spelled "Scorpion" would be pronounced the same as the adjective "Scorpian", while a colony called Scorpion would be pronounced "Skor-pee-on". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:05, 28 December 2005 (EST)

Final call for objections before I move the relevant articles. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:23, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

== Location ==

I didn't want to get into a revert war, so... How, exactly, are the colonies' positions indicated in the Tomb of Athena? I just watched that ep last night and I don't remember any arrows or name tags... If the theory is that the colonies are inside the constellation that shares their name, then I think I'll have to disagree. Not possible. The zodiac constellations are spread about in our sky in a circle, meaning they're not very near each other at all (so if "the Colonies" can be considered some single area of space that's small enough to go from one end to another inside months they need to be closer than a large ring of space encircling Earth) and all the stars in a constellation aren't even necessarily near each other. --[[User:Day|Day]] 10:42, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I don't think the positions of the Twelve Colonies are indicated at all by the tomb of Athena. It's just a map to Earth (Earth being the only spot where those constellations would appear in that configuration). It is interesting that would mean that there isn't a direct correlation between the constellations and the colonies that they are named after... (other than as a rememberance of where they came from, kind of). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:50, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:The fact of the matter is that the Tomb of Athena holographic map to Earth shows constellations made of the symbols of the Twelve Tribees/Colonies; these constellations are '''entirely arbitrary'''; that is, they were designated purely because they resemble the symbols of the Colonies; each planet of the 12 is in ''no way'' in each constellation. Besides, that would mean they'd often end up in separate galaxies. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::Well, no, not separate galaxies, but further apart from each other than each is from earth. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:34, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::: My point exactly, Peter. Well said. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:05, 5 January 2006 (EST)

Can we take the part about all the colonies orbiting the same star out of the article? I think it's pretty clear that they're all separate systems, unless someone has different information. --[[User:Bahamut|Bahamut]] 02:42, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:Why do you think that's clear? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:59, 12 March 2006 (CST)

::Mostly because of the use of FTL technology, but also because of the improbability of a star having twelve planets that can support human life. It's discussed elsewhere in the Wiki that it's likely they're all separate systems. Maybe instead of taking it out altogether we should add a caveat about how it's disputed or at least link to the other discussion? --[[User:Bahamut|Bahamut]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Upon re-watching the Miniseries (IMHO anyway) all references are given as hours from caprica, but when the war alert first goes off and Cmdr Adama asks to "scan the system" (circa 48mins in) the report is given that "Now, looks like the main fight is shaping up over here near Virgon's orbit" and a few lines latter "If we can keep Virgon between us and the battle". Which to me means that Virgon, Caprica and Ragnar (a gas giant) are all in the same solar system. thoughts anyone? [[User:Pickle UK|Pickle UK]] 00:45, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:I think this is a settled issue. From Moore's blog, [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/#a000016 30 January 2005]:
::Does it make sense that there would be a star system with 12 inhabitable planets? Not really, but that was in the original and at some point I decided to run with that as another nod to the old show.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:56, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:::An important note on this topic is that among young stars, they tend to be grouped in what is known as "stellar associations" which are several stars that are gravitational bound together by virtue of them all being born at the same time in the same stellar nursery and all being within a light year of each other; hence you could call them a system. Now, over time as they get more to our Sun's age, they will disapate over a great distance and no longer be associated, but this is over 100s of millions to billions of years. Generally it is considered unlikely that such young stars bear planets that possess life but does not rule out the idea that they have planets... earth-like planets. Therefore, a stellar association, possessing 12 or more stars....all within a light year of each other...--[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 01:40, 10 April 2006 (PST)

::::Honestly, this is the sort of speculation that impedes my enjoyment of the show. It doesn't matter, and I don't care. Feel free to speculate as you will, but I think the whole debate is distracting and unworthy of more than a footnote. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:37, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

== More on flags ==

I found this a while ago. A user on Sci-Fi.com's messageboard going by "bescincimevsim" has made some incredible renderings of all twelve colonial flags that, in my oppinion look very good and accurate to what has been seen on the show. It might be worth checking out the [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1310569&Searchpage=2&Main=1310569&Words=bescincimevsim&topic=&Search=true#Post1310569 topic here]. I ''think'' they might be avalible for free use, but then again the guy doesn't seem to be available for contact anymore a he posted only one topic, the one about the flags, then stopped posting altogether in mid October. Either way, I think it should be worth checking out. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 18:05, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:We should not use these. I think they're just fanart. There is a page in the official companion of *early* flag designs (the names are wrong in some cases, etc. so this page of the book is an early draft and shouldn't be used as fact). However, this guy also confuses the symbols of Tauron and Leonis. I mean it's just a guy posting on a messageboard. The Citation Crusade wouldn't stand for it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::The assignment of colony and flag is obviously non-canon, but the graphics themselves are far superior to the ones we're using. We should ask him to license them to us under the CCL. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:56, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::Alternately, if he can be contacted, ask him to create corrected ones based on a CCL.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 14:40, 2 February 2006 (EST)
::Well, I've done some tweaking to our icons making them look a little crisper and sort-of rationalised the originals by QuintusCinna and the ones seen on the Sci-Fi BBS by bescincimevsim. I'll upload them soon and if you don't like them then I guess you can just revert them later. Just thought I'd help out, is all. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 00:12, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:::I think they're an improvement. Thank you, Kahran. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:57, 17 March 2006 (CST)

==Colonial Flags==
The Colonial Flags, as listed on this page, have been matched to their colonies based solely on on-screen evidence. Given their dubious veracity on other matters, I am not prepared to take the Official Magazine's word for it over what we've actually seen — at least not without a discussion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:Okay, then you should know that the flags also match what is written in the Battlestar Galactica The Official Companion. It has a page for Colonial Day that lists the flasg for each colony and it's the smae as the Magazine flag listings, so that's two sources that support my listings as opposed the shoddy on-screen evidence from the episodes. --Ltcrashdown 22:30, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've examined the footage of Colonial Day and QuintusCinna's arguments, and concluded that they aren't very strong. I'm going to revert this back to your version. Do you have a cite for the Official Companion as well? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:35, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::Here's the info: Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion by David Bassom, page 86, Published by Titan Books, London, August 2005
:::By the way, what was QuintusCinna's source?--Ltcrashdown 22:39, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::::For the colonies at issue here, it was mostly conjecture on his part. I remembered his argument having more basis than it actually did. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 8 February 2006 (EST)

== We are Gemenese if you Please! ==

I think the way this works (and once we nail it down, we should put it on S&C, probably) is that someone ''from'' Gemenon is a Gemenon, but the adjective for describing them is Gemenese. So, like, a nice Gemenese Rug or something. This is a throwback to the language of Gemenese in TOS, I think. Now... Is someone from Caprica Caprican and "a Caprica" or does that one match the adjective (like I'm from Texas, thus I am Texan and "a Texan" if that helps)? Whatcha think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:07, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== Aerilon? ==

Unless someone cites a source on this spelling correction, I think this needs to be reverted. Anyone? --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 19:46, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:Seems like other people are using it: http://s9.invisionfree.com/Ragnar_Anchorage/index.php?showtopic=658 the same way. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:52, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::It is also on http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/ships/ships/ on the Celestra bio. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:55, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::: Well, the forum link is inconclusive, as the poster using that spelling questions it himself and is not, quite frankly, a reliable source. The SciFi.com link is more helpful, but still doesn't help much. They have two different spellings for a couple of the Colonies still around their site, so we can't really trust them on this. Does anyone have a copy of the various writings spawned from the show? If the companions and magazines and scifi.com all agreed, even though none of those are on our big list of accepted sources, I'd consider that a pretty good indication that we'd been misspelling it this whole time. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:30, 20 March 2006 (CST)

==Spelling==
This topic keeps coming up, and our spelling conventions do not seem to match the ones generally used throughout fandom, so I want to have a definitive location for sources on spelling used here. Our emphasis, as always, is on citation and accuracy.

The names of six of the colonies can be seen fully spelled out in the episode "Colonial Day". There should be no room for debate on these.
<gallery>
Image:sp-canceron.jpg|Canceron
Image:sp-caprica.jpg|Caprica
Image:sp-gemenon.jpg|Gemenon
Image:sp-leonis.jpg|Leonis
Image:sp-sagittaron.jpg|Sagittaron
Image:sp-virgon.jpg|Virgon
</gallery>

We can also see the first three letters of "Picon": 
[[Image:sp-picon.jpg|sp-picon.jpg]] 
There's no serious controversy here, as no other spelling has been proposed for that colony.

Although not visible in the episode, the spelling of Scorpia can be clearly seen in a high-resolution [http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/1.11/imagepages/image6.html publicity still]: 
[[Image:sp-scorpia.jpg|150px]] 
This is complicated by [[Helena Cain]]'s reference to the "Scorpian Fleet Shipyards" in the episode "[[Pegasus (episode)]]". [[Talk:The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Scorpion vs. Scorpia|Extensive discussion]] on battlestar wiki concluded that the visual evidence should be deferred to, and also suggested that she may have been using "Scorpian" as an adjectival form of the colony's name. This was supported by Michelle Forbes's use of a reduced vowel in the final syllable, while other colony names used throughout the series have used the fully realized vowel /ɑ/.

The names "Aquaria" and "Tauron" were given in "[[Colonial Day]]" and "[[Pegasus (episode)]]", respectively. There is no serious debate on their spelling.

Very little evidence is available regarding the colony corresponding to Libra. Neither it nor its citizens have ever been mentioned in the miniseries or 33 episodes aired to date, nor has RDM mentioned the colony in his blog. SciFi.com's website refers to the [[Space Park]] as being of "Libran" registry, but it is unclear whether this is meant to be the nominal or adjectival form of the colony's name (see below).

The name of the colony corresponding to Aries was named as {{IPA|'ɛɹ.lɑn}} in "[[Bastille Day]]". Two spellings have been proposed. It is worth noting that the second vowel, which is the one at issue, is not actually pronounced by actress Mary McDonnell.

'''AERILON''' 
'''Official Use'''

The SciFi.com website refers to the [[Celestra]] as being of "Aerilon" registry. This is apparently the nominal form, despite the anomalous use of the adjectival "Caprica" on the "Colonial One" entry on the same webpage. (The adjectival forms of Scorpia (Scorpian, established in "[[Pegasus (episode)]]") and Tauron (Tauranian, established in "[[Resistance]]") are not used.)

RDM uses this spelling in a [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/#a000016 blog entry] dated 30 January, 2005.

'''Fan Use'''
*Google returns approximately [http://www.google.com/search?q=aerilon 400 matches] for this spelling.
*This spelling is used by transcript website SadGeezer.com.

'''AERELON''' 
'''Fan Use'''
*Google returns approximately [http://www.google.com/search?q=aerelon 300 matches] for this spelling.
*[http://tviv.org/wiki/Battlestar_Galactica_(2003)/The_Twelve_Colonies TV IV]
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:34, 23 March 2006 (CST)

== Should I Add This Or Not? ==

On Wikipedia there is a lot more information on the Twelve Colonies, including founders and names of capital cities. Should I add this information to the corresponding colony section on this page or is this information that doesn't belong on this wiki? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 11:04, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
:We're pretty strict about [[BW:CITE|citations]] around here. Unless we can find official sources to back up that info, it doesn't belong here. I'm pretty sure that it hasn't been officially established names for all Twelve Lords of Kobol (if there are exactly twelve, as RDM was a bit vague on this), and I've got no idea where they are getting the capitol names from. If there is an official source, we'd be good, but it feels like this may be derived from fan fiction (which would have NO place on this article) or at best from novelizations/alternate continuity (which could at least be argued, but is still suspect). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:17, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
::Understood. I just reviewed the article and it said that the names were non-canonical. In that case, Wikipedia's information has NO place in this article. If the characters start listing off this information in the next seasons (which I SERIOUSLY doubt they will at this point), I can put it in. However, I want to note that I found confirmation for Aerelon's capital (including a photo) and the colony description on Google. You have to type "Aerelon" (make sure it's spelled EXACTLY like that) and then scroll down the top ten results page. The title is simply "Aerelon" and is located two results under the listing for our own wiki. The description starts with "Capital: Maegera"--[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 19:24, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
:::That's a fan site. Please read over the [[BW:CITE|Citation Jihad]] for a list of official sources. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:00, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

Thank you no end, Homeworld616, for pointing out this grievous error on Wikipedia. *One person* posted their own fanfic into there: they even left a warning label: "These following sections contain equal parts fanon and canon.".....er, it is impossible to be both "fanon" and "canon" at the same time. ----->'''I have personally deleted all of this fanfic from Wikipedia, and warned the user that posted it'''. Sorry, but they get all kinds on wikipedia. Thanks for asking us and bringing it to our attention 616--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:45, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

:No problem, Merovingian. It's my pleasure to help make Wikipedia and its associated sites better for all. I can't believe someone actually tried to pass their fanfic off as fact. Oh well, so long as it has been deleted. But we need to watch for other users posting crap around here. Wikipedia's Twelve Colonies may just be the beginning. To quote Shakespeare from ''The Tempest,'' "what is past is prologue." --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 01:12, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Notes on Culture ==

All right, has anyone noticed that in the Colonies, virtually everything that would be a rectangle here on Earth (pictureframe, sheet of paper, etc.) is a ''hexagon''? To cite some examples, in the [[Miniseries]] Roslin is handed a slip of paper describing the Cylon attack on a networked Battlestar. That slip is a hexagon. Adama's picture frame of him, Zak and Lee is also a hexagon. Even the computers are hexagons. Now, a hexagon has 6 sides (half of 12, which is seemingly a symbolic number in the series), and is a practical shape for use (12-gons would be stupid for paper) so does anyone think that the hexagon is some kind of symbolic shape for the Colonials?

Also, in the [[Delphi Museum of the Colonies]], Starbuck is walking past display cases full of ancient pottery. Culture is transmitted in the form of art and artifacts, so while this may be trivial I feel like it is worth noting.

In addition to this, notice how Elosha's priestess garment is pretty eccentric, while Brother Cavil's uniform is a plain black cassock with some purple decorations. A difference of garb choice for priestesses and priests, perhaps?

Furthermore, in the [[Miniseries]], notice those Caprican mothers carting their babies around the city in those oversized plastic baby carriages that look like they provide too much protection for the tots. Perhaps a link to the Scripture statement saying that life is precious and should be protected? I can't think of any other way for the carriage manufacturer to be willing to put extra money into obtaining more plastic resources for the increased carriage size and safety. No wait, lawsuits... But that still wouldn't explain the supersized babymobiles and extra costs and materials needed for manufacturing.

Cereals! In [[Sacrifice]] (I think, I'm not sure), Roslin tells an aggressive Billy Keikaya, "Looks like someone ate their Wheaties today." Okay, so...General Mills was actually a ''Colonial'' corporation and they imported it to Earth while we weren't looking. This might just imply that the Colonials also ate Cascadian Farm, Frescarini, Lucky Charms, Chex Mix, Cheerios, Hamburger Helper...the list goes on. Either that or I'm just making a big deal over some trivial prodcut placement.

Finally, in TOS, most of the buildings in Caprica (with exception of Long Beach City Hall where the episode was filmed), were pyramids. In the RDM series, there aren't as many pyramids, but there are a couple in Caprica City (let me get the image). Since there is circumstantial evidence that life began on Earth, does anyone think these pyramids could be a link with the Egyptians, who already had a thriving civilization and the Giza pyramids built by the time Greece (and perhaps the Kobol-sect) became an ancient powerhouse?

Taking all of this into consideration, should I initiate a "Culture" section for the Twelve Colonies (RDM)? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 14:36, 3 July 2006 (CDT)
:According the the episode transcript...
:'''[[Laura Roslin]]''': Someone took their vitamins this morning. 
:'''[[Billy Keikeya]]''': Yeah, I don't know what got into me. 
:--''[[Sacrifice]]''
:There's an "[[Arts and Literature of the Twelve Colonies|arts and lit article]]" under construction for the 12 Colonies seriesthat might be a home for some of the architecture, pottery, etc. notes. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:08, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks, Steelviper. I'll look into that. --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 15:18, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

[[Image:Mini-Caprica City.jpg]]
Here's the image. Look to the FAR right hand side and note the two pyramid office buildings, one with steep lateral faces and the other looking kind of like a glass reproduction of the Giza pyramids. --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 14:41, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

Arts and Lit is where we're working on that. Note, that it's really just an in-joke from the Miniseries: they had to "cut corners" on the production due to budget restraints, so it started out as a joke that they were "cutting corners" on everything. The problem was, as this series progressed this became a logistical nightmare, as literally hours of work had to be spent into doing this, i.e. stacks of books in Cain's quarters. As for the image....I'm sorry but it's too vague to actually make out if it's anything. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:24, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

== Links ==

Folks, I've noticed there's some ambiguity going on with the Wiki reference links, and I think we should probably straighten them out. In short, do we want to link to the astrological sign, or the constellations? I note this because I just cleaned up a few of the links before realizing this should be discussed, as (for example), someone had [[Wikipedia:Capricorn|Capricorn]] point to the WP page there, which is a disambig page, instead of [[Wikipedia:Capricorn (astrology)|Capricorn (astrology)]] or [[Wikipedia:Capricornus|Capricorn'''us''']] (the constellation; note the spelling, as there's at least one more constellation that swings this way - [[Wikipedia:Scorpius|Scorpius]]). Just a thought or two to muddy the waters further. ^_^--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 22:00, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
:I'd prefer to link to the constellations. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:08, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Done and done, then.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:44, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

Talk:The Twelve Colonies of Kobol/Archive3

2006-11-20T14:48:24Z

LucentPhoenix: /* Baltar as a "native" */

==Question==

Do we know that the colonies are necessarily on 12 worlds? Can someone find a reference? It's clear that virgon and caprica are in the same star system, and that each colony can have more than one city, (dephi, in caprica), but is there some reason why two colonies can't be on the same planet?

==Merge proposal==

This article, and the articles for each of the Twelve Colonies, are all very short, and I don't see any of them expanding substantially in the near future. I think it would make for a nice looking, meaty article if we merged in each of the individual colony articles with this one under first-level headings. How say you all? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:50, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I know this looks weird and kind of dumb. I'm still fiddling. It's easy to revert if the whole thing ends up being too hideous to bear. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:17, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

[[image:Banner_unknown1.gif|left|75px]][[image:Banner_unknown2.gif|right|75px]]
: I like the idea and whats up now. If we knew more about each colony, it would look nicer, but until then I think this is fine. Now... What to do with these other two banners? Now, the two colonies without banners are Leo and Aquarius, the lion and the water-bearer. Both of these symbols could be a water-bearer, I guess, but I think the black and white one looks like he has whisters, there and that shape at the top looks more ear-like. That would leave the blue and red one to be the water bearer, which I think makes sense enough. Think we could drop those in with a note as to their speculative nature, or best not to? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:27, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::I'm leaving this one up to [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]], our resident flag-hunter. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The two colonies without banners is Aquarius and whatever the colonial name is for Libra. I saw in the mini-series they mentioned a colony called "ICON" alongside of "PICON" so I'm a little weirded out. As for Leonis, that flag has been found. I did a picture search in google for the zodiac's constellation and found the flag's symbol looked exactly like what I have designated. I can't remember, but I believe the constellation for Libra looked quite similar to the black one. Since we don't yet know as of yet what is the name for the Libra colony, I have left it blank. [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]

:At least we know it isn't Ophiuchi or something. Roslin identifies Libra in the Tomb of Athena map room, although she doesn't give its modern name. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:59, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Realizing that it's still being worked on, it looks awful right now. You can't tell which banner goes to which colony, for one thing. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 08:30, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Personally, I don't really like the combination of all 12 colonies together either since there is no set border and down the road we will have pictures relating to each colony. This will make it slower to download. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 12:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The problem, in my opinion, is that there's little to do at the main article other than simply list the colonies, and the majority of the individual colonies are stub-like in length. As for images, Caprica is the only planet we've seen thus far and probably the only one we're likely to see (unless we get Scorpion in a flashback in Pegasus or something). One thing we can do, if it becomes necessary, is link to full-length articles from just underneath the first-level headings.

:As for the banners, I agree that they could be confusing but I rather like them right now. Do either of you think it coudl be re-arranged in a better manner (maybe if they didn't alternate sides? But then there'd be a lot more wasted space)? Or is it a lost cause in your opinions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:20, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::Yeah, you could try putting all the banners on the right. See how it looks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 14:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::There, that's what they look like right-aligned. Frankly, I think they look better alternating. I don't find it confusing, and the wasted space bugs me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::Hate to say it, but I don't like it at all. The banners overlap with the previous colony's "box", there are no clear markers indicating where one section begins and another ends, it just looks bad. (Part of the problem is that we don't have much information about many of the colonies at this point.) --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:07, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::It'd be better if we could insert a line across the entire page, and have the colony name under that line, along with the banner on the right. Then each colony would have a neat, easily readable section. I don't know if Wiki markup is capable of that though. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:10, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::I still think it's a better option than thirteen articles that are completely insubstantial on their own. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I added captions to some of the banners, and in the process deleted some of the <nowiki><div></nowiki> markup. Wikipedia recommends against using HTML ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_markup_with_HTML]), and I've been trying to learn from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_image_syntax Extended image syntax] page. I can't figure out why a new section like <nowiki>==Caprica==</nowiki> doesn't appear on the same level as its banner. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:09, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:Ah ha! The wonders of '''<nowiki> </nowiki>'''! What do you guys think of the formatting now? --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:28, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::My HTML/CSS was not used lightly. That's really the one way to get the banners at the section heading level as I did. Frankly this seems like a more cumbersome version of my right-aligned attempt. I really dislike the caption boxes, too.
::I have a new idea: Rather than use the (rather long) banners, we can grab the icons from each, along with the background colors, and use them. I've created nine high-resolution versions from QuintusCinna's originals, which you can link to below:
::[http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/aerelon.png Aerelon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/canceron.png Canceron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/caprica.png Caprica], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/gemenon.png Gemenon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/picon.png Picon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/sagittaron.png Sagittaron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpion.png Scorpion], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/tauron.png Tauron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/virgon.png Virgon]
::These could be scaled down to almost any size and still look nice. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:35, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Without caption boxes, it's not clear what the banners are. I know it seems self-explanatory to us, but for someone who's never seen them before, it's not. I'll take a look at the icons in a bit. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 17:03, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I find repeating "This is the Banner of X" to be tedious, and the red background to be jarring. Couldn't we simply note that the banner/icon/flag/colors of the colony is provided to the right? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:06, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Peter. You've saved us all. As I said earlier, I liked it when the banner appeared to be hanging from the red line under its colony's name. I share Peter's dislike for tons of white space and alternating the sides seemed to create the least of that. However, if we just had the emblem and colors from each flag, we could do it below the red line as Fang seems to like, and not have this huge, long graphic. Maybe we can then link the full banner pics and, if we get enough information that a given colony's article wouldn't be a stub, we can display it there. Does all that make sense? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I like it with banners to right, with titling, albeit a little redundant. Not sure how to deal with the "white space" of many areas, but we're really not going to get them filled until we get more data, so that is that. I feel it's informative enough as it stands, but I'll leave the formatting arguments alone. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:52, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

==Which flag is which?==
A close viewing of [[Colonial Day]] indicates that the flag currently labeled as [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]] belongs to Safiya Sanne's seat - either Picon or Leonis; and that the black flag belongs to Robin Wenutu's seat (Canceron), and that VIrgon's flag is a white field with a green inner stripe and yellow outer stripe. I'm curious as to how QuintusCinna came to his conclusion that the delegates aren't seated at their apprporiate flags, since I don't know any other evidence linking particular flags to colonies. I guess Scorpion is pretty obvious, though. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:34, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Don't trust the banners lining up with those they represent in [[Colonial Day]]. The reason I say this is that [[Tom Zarek]] is in one area of the room and his very obvious banner for Sagitarron is completely in another area. This is the same for Virgon's banner and their representative. There are 3 different questions I carry thanks to the shows I have watched. In the mini-series we see the banners are in this order from left to right: [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Virgon|Virgon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], Scorpion, Aquaria(?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]], Libra (?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Sagittaron|Sagittaron]], [[Canceron]] (?), [[Leonis]]. Is this in the order that the colonies signed the unification treaty or is the order for the flags random or is it in the order they were nuked? Though I am sure the producers, directors, and such just put them up in random order, it is now a sense of fact for the show. If we were to believe they were placed up there, the banners must be up there in some order that is according to military protocol for flag bearing. In Colonial Day I add 2 more questions. We see that the banners are behind the delegates in a different order than in the mini-series. This means they were either a) put up randomly or b) have a separate purpose than those shown at the end of the mini-series (nuked, treaty order, or other). Then we see that the delegates are put in a different order than the banners behind them. The Gemenon delegate is clearly seen toward the middle and the Gemenon flag is clearly in a different area. The same questions come up for the delegates: are they randomly placed or is there reason. It's not alphabetical, and placements of delegates and banners in every society is always in some sort of traditional order. I hope that the Battlestar Galactica producers, writers, and such will be able to answer this though I suspect they won't because they have REAL lives.

As for the Picon flag, the constellation looks quite similar to the picon banner and the same goes for Tauron's with Taurus. I have no doubt with those. The Libra's icon can be seen in this picture http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HorseAstrology/AstrologySymbol.gif 2 clockwise from Sagittarius.
--[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 1:12, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

==New Icons==
What do you think? We might consider making them smaller and removing the image frame and caption, but I'd also be happy leaving them as they are. It's nice to have a place to note that some of the symbols are only tentatively identified with the colonies in question. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:It looks fine. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 09:11, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I like 'em. I'd say smaller, though. Of course... I have my thumb settings to 300px so that screen shots are large enough to be intelligible, so smaller to me would be about 150px or 100px. I also like alternating for balance, but that's just me. I alternate right a left in other articles, too. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:21, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

I have a set of colonial glyphs that were lifted from a copy of the voting ballots used in Lay Down Your Burdens Pt1. I can upload both the cap of the ballot and the vector graphics file of the glyphs. I've already released the glyphs for public use, so I have no problem with their being used here. The ballot image I have has Baltar's name blurred out, as that was a spoiler at the time the image was released. The image orginally came from the Reproduction Props Forum, where a member got hold of one of the actual props used in the episode. --[[User:Scotchfairy|Scotchfairy]] 14:54, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

:Thanks for the offer. It would be nice to get a look at them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:16, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
::Okay, I've uploaded the four jpgs I have of the voting ballot. They still reside on my server at the moment. If you decide to include them in the wiki, I'll upload them to the database. 
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotSm.jpg Small Image of Ballot Front]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotFront.jpg Large Image of Ballot Front]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotBack.jpg Large Image of Ballot Back]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotTop.jpg Very Large Image of Ballot Top]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/ColonialGlyphs.gif My version of the colonial glyphs (gif)]
:: If you want to play with the Photoshop custom shapes file, it's [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/LeesBSGshapes.csh.zip here (zip)]. [[User:Scotchfairy|Scotchfairy]] 00:25, 2 August 2006 (CDT)

==Residence vs. Tribe==

I think there's a difference between "where a character currently makes their residence" and "what colony they are from". I think "what colony they are from" means "what ''tribe''" they are. For example, Dualla could have been away from Sagittaron for years and lived on another Colony, but she's still from the Sagittaron tribe. In "Bastille Day", she describes herself as "a Sagittaron", not "someone ''from'' Sagittaron".

Anyway, I also think that non-canonical information from SkyOne website should not be used in assuming Stabuck may be from Picon, not Caprica. We should wait until this is said on either the Scifi.com official site, or on screen.
--Ricimer, 16 Sept, 2005

:Actually, Dee did say "I'm from Sagittaron". [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:56, 10 July 2006 (CDT)

:I agree. Under the [[The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29#Natives_2|Caprica Natives]] section, it lists Gaius Baltar, but then clearly states "(Born on Sagittaron)." If that is the case, then he is a native of ... drumroll please ... '''Sagittaron''', not Caprica. He may have resided there, but he was a Sagitton.

I think this should be changed, but didn't want to just change it without some discussion. Unless there is a good reason given, though, I'm going to make the change.

[[User:LucentPhoenix|LucentPhoenix]] 08:26, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==Outposts==

Ricimer wrote: ''The Colonials actually expanded their sphere of influence over time beyond the original Twelve Colonies to include several outposts, bases, and mining colonies (such as [[Troy]]) in other systems ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html| RDM, January 30, 2005]), though they were apparently minor extensions of the original Twelve Colonies rather than independently functioning worlds in their own right, and when the Cylons overwhelmed the Twelve Colonies themselves no mention is even explicity made about these minor worlds, seeming to take it as a given that the destruction of the Twelve Colonies would equal the destruction of humanity, and that these outposts were not significant enough to pose any challenge to the Cylon fleet.''

RDM's actual comments are:

:Q: "Did the colonies have outposts, bases, or trade partners outside of the 12 colonies. Did they even explore other systems. The colonies could have had observatories, listening posts, or even scientific research teams exploring other planets beyond the colonial system(s). They could encounter any of these which could lead to supplies, raw materials, food, fuel etc. "

:RDM: I think that's probably true, but part of our premise is that the fleet has Jumped far out into unexplored space in an effort to elude the Cylons, so we won't be encountered any other outposts or colonies.

I think that's a very weak confirmation, and if we're going to include it here, it should reflect the vagueness of RDM's actual comment. I have replaced it with the following:

:Ronald D. Moore has suggested that the Colonies probably maintained some minor observatories and listening posts in outlying star systems, but it is unlikely that ''Galactica'' will encounter them in the course of the series. ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html#a000016|RDM, January 30, 2005])

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 15 December 2005 (EST)

==Scorpion vs. Scorpia==

At present, we have a name card from "[[Colonial Day]]" and the name of the [[Scorpia Traveler]] in favor of "Scorpia", and the [[Scorpion Fleet Shipyards]] in favor of "Scorpion". Ricimer, if you want to make a case for "Scorpion" over "Scorpia", you ''must'' cite an episode quote, and I will not produce it for you. Your uncited revisions are anathema to our goal of accuracy. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:34, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:I am sorry, I was in a hurry to get out and didn't have time to wip out my copy of the series companion. On p.86 of "Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion", by David Bassom, there is an "''early'' concept sketch of the flags of the Twele Colonies"; On this, it lists the names "Scorpia", but also "Libran", and "Aquarion". "[[Colonial Day]]" established that these two Colonies are in fact named "Libra" and "Aquaria", in dialog, etc. This evidence has led me to believe that "Scorpia" was amongst some early ideas for Colony names that were thrown around in the early stages of production, but which were later changed; however, the art and props department wasn't notified of the switch, or made a mistake, etc. I'm also inclined to this line of thinking because the props in this scene feature several now-infamous goofs, such as the switcheroo between Canceron, Picon, Leonis, etc., etc. As for the evidence from "Scorpia Traveler", there's also a "Gemini" ship, as well as mispelling etc. which have led me to the belief that certain ship names are just meant for asthetic value and do not necessarily reflect the actual name of their home Colony. In "Home, Part II" it was established that the Colonies used to have "ancient names" which align more closely to the signs of the Zodiac, but which over the millenia have drifted away into their present form. Perhaps some ship captains just felt like naming their vessels after the more ancient names. I don't know. But the main points remain: A) Ship names aren't very reliable as an information source, B) this scene had many goofs in it, C) the official companion shows that this was an early name thrown around, but later abandoned, and several of these early names have been disproven by this point. Therefore, I think "Scorpion Fleet Shipyards", the first ''prominent'' mention of Scorpion/Scorpia, taken with the above evidence, proves that the true name of the Colony is "Scorpion". What's everyone else's consensus? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:24, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I'm with Ricimer on this one.--Zareck Rocks 15:04, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I agree with Ricimer, as Cain's mention of the "scorpion fleet shipyards" is the only canonical reference to place when it comes to the scorpio-related colony. It has also been shown, as Ricimer mentions above, that the ship names seem to be variations of the colony names i.e. [[Gemenon Taveller]] and the [[Gemini]]. So we can't necessarily glean the name of the scorpio-related colony from the [[Scorpia Traveller]], for there may also be a Scorpion Traveller.
::However, unless someone can verify this with subtitles, Cain could be saying Scorpi''an'' fleet shipyards, rather than Scorpi''on'', thereby inferring that the colony name is Scorpia (I dare to speculate that the Caprica would have it's own Caprican fleet shipyards(if it did indeed have shipyards)). I don't have the DVDs, as they're not yet available in Canada, but someone should really check this, it could answer this question --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 16:20, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::I've grepped the TwizTV logs, and the Scorpia/Scorpion colony has never been referred to apart from the instances we've already listed. So, here's what that means:
:::#We have a mention of the "Scorpia Traveler", which matches the "Gemenon Traveler". "Freighter Gemini" is a TOS reference.
:::#We have a comment that might be the "Scorpion" shipyards, or the "Scorpian" shipyards.
:::#We have a clear and readable screenshot of the name of the colony.
:::We should not "correct" the name of the colony to what we think it "should" be, when we have unequivocal evidence staring us in the face. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::I'm sorry, but it doesn't really seem like the above evidence is "unequivocal". Thankfully, I think "Resurrection Ship" will make further mention of ''Pegasus' '' flight from the shipyards, and we will probably hear the name again. Best to wait until then. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:05, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::Let me clarify. We have at least seen "Scorpia" spelled out. We have never even ''heard'' "Scorpion", except in a context that might easily have been "Scorpian". In my opinion, the two options here are "Scorpia" or "We don't know". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::Wait a minute, someone out there has got to have the DVD set of the second season, we should be able to determine the definitive name of the scorpio colony from that. Although, I suppose, Peter, that you're suggesting we leave it at Scorpia until someone can check the subtitles. That sounds fine with me. --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 22:56, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::How will that tell us definitively? It was only mentioned in "Pegasus", in the ambiguous dialogue mentioned above. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:00, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::Like I said, we stand a good chance of hearing it again in the very next two episodes, so I suggest we leave things as they are, and reach a final decision after "Resurrection Ship, Part II". Although we could get subtitles from the DVD, subtitles can be notoriously innaccurate when it comes to the finer points of spelling, i.e. Scorpion vs. Scorpian. Perhaps we could rewatch Pegasus, and check the inflection that Michelle Forbes uses; I ''think'' she clearly said "-ion" (as opposed to "-ian"). I'll check again; however, even hearing the dialog personally, I doubt this will give a DEFINATIVE answer in ANY form as the actress could have been just slurring it. I don't know. Well, I'll check for the sake of checking. Again, I think we should "wait and see" on this one. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:11, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::I just watched the episode and the subtitles (however inaccurate) do say "Scorpion." It does sound like Forbes says more of an -ion than -ian. Just my two cents. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:30, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Thank you Talos. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:04, 26 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Scorpion would be pronounced with the full vowel "{{IPA|piɑn}}, while "Scorpian" would use a reduced vowel, {{IPA|piən}} or {{IPA|piɨn}}. The latter is what I hear, although Ricimer is right that it could just be "slurring". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:09, 26 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::::I've isolated Michelle Forbes's pronunciation of "Scorpi_n" and uploaded it [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpian.wav here]. Unfortunately, the last syllable is basically whispered and cannot be analyzed for vowel formants. It does sound very reduced to me, however. This is not usually the case for Picon, Gemenon, etc. which are almost always realized with full vowels.
:::::::::::Note, by the way, that the ''animal'' spelled "Scorpion" would be pronounced the same as the adjective "Scorpian", while a colony called Scorpion would be pronounced "Skor-pee-on". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:05, 28 December 2005 (EST)

Final call for objections before I move the relevant articles. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:23, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

== Location ==

I didn't want to get into a revert war, so... How, exactly, are the colonies' positions indicated in the Tomb of Athena? I just watched that ep last night and I don't remember any arrows or name tags... If the theory is that the colonies are inside the constellation that shares their name, then I think I'll have to disagree. Not possible. The zodiac constellations are spread about in our sky in a circle, meaning they're not very near each other at all (so if "the Colonies" can be considered some single area of space that's small enough to go from one end to another inside months they need to be closer than a large ring of space encircling Earth) and all the stars in a constellation aren't even necessarily near each other. --[[User:Day|Day]] 10:42, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I don't think the positions of the Twelve Colonies are indicated at all by the tomb of Athena. It's just a map to Earth (Earth being the only spot where those constellations would appear in that configuration). It is interesting that would mean that there isn't a direct correlation between the constellations and the colonies that they are named after... (other than as a rememberance of where they came from, kind of). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:50, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:The fact of the matter is that the Tomb of Athena holographic map to Earth shows constellations made of the symbols of the Twelve Tribees/Colonies; these constellations are '''entirely arbitrary'''; that is, they were designated purely because they resemble the symbols of the Colonies; each planet of the 12 is in ''no way'' in each constellation. Besides, that would mean they'd often end up in separate galaxies. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::Well, no, not separate galaxies, but further apart from each other than each is from earth. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:34, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::: My point exactly, Peter. Well said. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:05, 5 January 2006 (EST)

Can we take the part about all the colonies orbiting the same star out of the article? I think it's pretty clear that they're all separate systems, unless someone has different information. --[[User:Bahamut|Bahamut]] 02:42, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:Why do you think that's clear? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:59, 12 March 2006 (CST)

::Mostly because of the use of FTL technology, but also because of the improbability of a star having twelve planets that can support human life. It's discussed elsewhere in the Wiki that it's likely they're all separate systems. Maybe instead of taking it out altogether we should add a caveat about how it's disputed or at least link to the other discussion? --[[User:Bahamut|Bahamut]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Upon re-watching the Miniseries (IMHO anyway) all references are given as hours from caprica, but when the war alert first goes off and Cmdr Adama asks to "scan the system" (circa 48mins in) the report is given that "Now, looks like the main fight is shaping up over here near Virgon's orbit" and a few lines latter "If we can keep Virgon between us and the battle". Which to me means that Virgon, Caprica and Ragnar (a gas giant) are all in the same solar system. thoughts anyone? [[User:Pickle UK|Pickle UK]] 00:45, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:I think this is a settled issue. From Moore's blog, [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/#a000016 30 January 2005]:
::Does it make sense that there would be a star system with 12 inhabitable planets? Not really, but that was in the original and at some point I decided to run with that as another nod to the old show.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:56, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:::An important note on this topic is that among young stars, they tend to be grouped in what is known as "stellar associations" which are several stars that are gravitational bound together by virtue of them all being born at the same time in the same stellar nursery and all being within a light year of each other; hence you could call them a system. Now, over time as they get more to our Sun's age, they will disapate over a great distance and no longer be associated, but this is over 100s of millions to billions of years. Generally it is considered unlikely that such young stars bear planets that possess life but does not rule out the idea that they have planets... earth-like planets. Therefore, a stellar association, possessing 12 or more stars....all within a light year of each other...--[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 01:40, 10 April 2006 (PST)

::::Honestly, this is the sort of speculation that impedes my enjoyment of the show. It doesn't matter, and I don't care. Feel free to speculate as you will, but I think the whole debate is distracting and unworthy of more than a footnote. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:37, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

== More on flags ==

I found this a while ago. A user on Sci-Fi.com's messageboard going by "bescincimevsim" has made some incredible renderings of all twelve colonial flags that, in my oppinion look very good and accurate to what has been seen on the show. It might be worth checking out the [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1310569&Searchpage=2&Main=1310569&Words=bescincimevsim&topic=&Search=true#Post1310569 topic here]. I ''think'' they might be avalible for free use, but then again the guy doesn't seem to be available for contact anymore a he posted only one topic, the one about the flags, then stopped posting altogether in mid October. Either way, I think it should be worth checking out. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 18:05, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:We should not use these. I think they're just fanart. There is a page in the official companion of *early* flag designs (the names are wrong in some cases, etc. so this page of the book is an early draft and shouldn't be used as fact). However, this guy also confuses the symbols of Tauron and Leonis. I mean it's just a guy posting on a messageboard. The Citation Crusade wouldn't stand for it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::The assignment of colony and flag is obviously non-canon, but the graphics themselves are far superior to the ones we're using. We should ask him to license them to us under the CCL. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:56, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::Alternately, if he can be contacted, ask him to create corrected ones based on a CCL.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 14:40, 2 February 2006 (EST)
::Well, I've done some tweaking to our icons making them look a little crisper and sort-of rationalised the originals by QuintusCinna and the ones seen on the Sci-Fi BBS by bescincimevsim. I'll upload them soon and if you don't like them then I guess you can just revert them later. Just thought I'd help out, is all. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 00:12, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:::I think they're an improvement. Thank you, Kahran. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:57, 17 March 2006 (CST)

==Colonial Flags==
The Colonial Flags, as listed on this page, have been matched to their colonies based solely on on-screen evidence. Given their dubious veracity on other matters, I am not prepared to take the Official Magazine's word for it over what we've actually seen — at least not without a discussion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:Okay, then you should know that the flags also match what is written in the Battlestar Galactica The Official Companion. It has a page for Colonial Day that lists the flasg for each colony and it's the smae as the Magazine flag listings, so that's two sources that support my listings as opposed the shoddy on-screen evidence from the episodes. --Ltcrashdown 22:30, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've examined the footage of Colonial Day and QuintusCinna's arguments, and concluded that they aren't very strong. I'm going to revert this back to your version. Do you have a cite for the Official Companion as well? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:35, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::Here's the info: Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion by David Bassom, page 86, Published by Titan Books, London, August 2005
:::By the way, what was QuintusCinna's source?--Ltcrashdown 22:39, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::::For the colonies at issue here, it was mostly conjecture on his part. I remembered his argument having more basis than it actually did. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 8 February 2006 (EST)

== We are Gemenese if you Please! ==

I think the way this works (and once we nail it down, we should put it on S&C, probably) is that someone ''from'' Gemenon is a Gemenon, but the adjective for describing them is Gemenese. So, like, a nice Gemenese Rug or something. This is a throwback to the language of Gemenese in TOS, I think. Now... Is someone from Caprica Caprican and "a Caprica" or does that one match the adjective (like I'm from Texas, thus I am Texan and "a Texan" if that helps)? Whatcha think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:07, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== Aerilon? ==

Unless someone cites a source on this spelling correction, I think this needs to be reverted. Anyone? --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 19:46, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:Seems like other people are using it: http://s9.invisionfree.com/Ragnar_Anchorage/index.php?showtopic=658 the same way. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:52, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::It is also on http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/ships/ships/ on the Celestra bio. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:55, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::: Well, the forum link is inconclusive, as the poster using that spelling questions it himself and is not, quite frankly, a reliable source. The SciFi.com link is more helpful, but still doesn't help much. They have two different spellings for a couple of the Colonies still around their site, so we can't really trust them on this. Does anyone have a copy of the various writings spawned from the show? If the companions and magazines and scifi.com all agreed, even though none of those are on our big list of accepted sources, I'd consider that a pretty good indication that we'd been misspelling it this whole time. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:30, 20 March 2006 (CST)

==Spelling==
This topic keeps coming up, and our spelling conventions do not seem to match the ones generally used throughout fandom, so I want to have a definitive location for sources on spelling used here. Our emphasis, as always, is on citation and accuracy.

The names of six of the colonies can be seen fully spelled out in the episode "Colonial Day". There should be no room for debate on these.
<gallery>
Image:sp-canceron.jpg|Canceron
Image:sp-caprica.jpg|Caprica
Image:sp-gemenon.jpg|Gemenon
Image:sp-leonis.jpg|Leonis
Image:sp-sagittaron.jpg|Sagittaron
Image:sp-virgon.jpg|Virgon
</gallery>

We can also see the first three letters of "Picon": 
[[Image:sp-picon.jpg|sp-picon.jpg]] 
There's no serious controversy here, as no other spelling has been proposed for that colony.

Although not visible in the episode, the spelling of Scorpia can be clearly seen in a high-resolution [http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/1.11/imagepages/image6.html publicity still]: 
[[Image:sp-scorpia.jpg|150px]] 
This is complicated by [[Helena Cain]]'s reference to the "Scorpian Fleet Shipyards" in the episode "[[Pegasus (episode)]]". [[Talk:The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Scorpion vs. Scorpia|Extensive discussion]] on battlestar wiki concluded that the visual evidence should be deferred to, and also suggested that she may have been using "Scorpian" as an adjectival form of the colony's name. This was supported by Michelle Forbes's use of a reduced vowel in the final syllable, while other colony names used throughout the series have used the fully realized vowel /ɑ/.

The names "Aquaria" and "Tauron" were given in "[[Colonial Day]]" and "[[Pegasus (episode)]]", respectively. There is no serious debate on their spelling.

Very little evidence is available regarding the colony corresponding to Libra. Neither it nor its citizens have ever been mentioned in the miniseries or 33 episodes aired to date, nor has RDM mentioned the colony in his blog. SciFi.com's website refers to the [[Space Park]] as being of "Libran" registry, but it is unclear whether this is meant to be the nominal or adjectival form of the colony's name (see below).

The name of the colony corresponding to Aries was named as {{IPA|'ɛɹ.lɑn}} in "[[Bastille Day]]". Two spellings have been proposed. It is worth noting that the second vowel, which is the one at issue, is not actually pronounced by actress Mary McDonnell.

'''AERILON''' 
'''Official Use'''

The SciFi.com website refers to the [[Celestra]] as being of "Aerilon" registry. This is apparently the nominal form, despite the anomalous use of the adjectival "Caprica" on the "Colonial One" entry on the same webpage. (The adjectival forms of Scorpia (Scorpian, established in "[[Pegasus (episode)]]") and Tauron (Tauranian, established in "[[Resistance]]") are not used.)

RDM uses this spelling in a [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/#a000016 blog entry] dated 30 January, 2005.

'''Fan Use'''
*Google returns approximately [http://www.google.com/search?q=aerilon 400 matches] for this spelling.
*This spelling is used by transcript website SadGeezer.com.

'''AERELON''' 
'''Fan Use'''
*Google returns approximately [http://www.google.com/search?q=aerelon 300 matches] for this spelling.
*[http://tviv.org/wiki/Battlestar_Galactica_(2003)/The_Twelve_Colonies TV IV]
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:34, 23 March 2006 (CST)

== Should I Add This Or Not? ==

On Wikipedia there is a lot more information on the Twelve Colonies, including founders and names of capital cities. Should I add this information to the corresponding colony section on this page or is this information that doesn't belong on this wiki? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 11:04, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
:We're pretty strict about [[BW:CITE|citations]] around here. Unless we can find official sources to back up that info, it doesn't belong here. I'm pretty sure that it hasn't been officially established names for all Twelve Lords of Kobol (if there are exactly twelve, as RDM was a bit vague on this), and I've got no idea where they are getting the capitol names from. If there is an official source, we'd be good, but it feels like this may be derived from fan fiction (which would have NO place on this article) or at best from novelizations/alternate continuity (which could at least be argued, but is still suspect). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:17, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
::Understood. I just reviewed the article and it said that the names were non-canonical. In that case, Wikipedia's information has NO place in this article. If the characters start listing off this information in the next seasons (which I SERIOUSLY doubt they will at this point), I can put it in. However, I want to note that I found confirmation for Aerelon's capital (including a photo) and the colony description on Google. You have to type "Aerelon" (make sure it's spelled EXACTLY like that) and then scroll down the top ten results page. The title is simply "Aerelon" and is located two results under the listing for our own wiki. The description starts with "Capital: Maegera"--[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 19:24, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
:::That's a fan site. Please read over the [[BW:CITE|Citation Jihad]] for a list of official sources. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:00, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

Thank you no end, Homeworld616, for pointing out this grievous error on Wikipedia. *One person* posted their own fanfic into there: they even left a warning label: "These following sections contain equal parts fanon and canon.".....er, it is impossible to be both "fanon" and "canon" at the same time. ----->'''I have personally deleted all of this fanfic from Wikipedia, and warned the user that posted it'''. Sorry, but they get all kinds on wikipedia. Thanks for asking us and bringing it to our attention 616--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:45, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

:No problem, Merovingian. It's my pleasure to help make Wikipedia and its associated sites better for all. I can't believe someone actually tried to pass their fanfic off as fact. Oh well, so long as it has been deleted. But we need to watch for other users posting crap around here. Wikipedia's Twelve Colonies may just be the beginning. To quote Shakespeare from ''The Tempest,'' "what is past is prologue." --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 01:12, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Notes on Culture ==

All right, has anyone noticed that in the Colonies, virtually everything that would be a rectangle here on Earth (pictureframe, sheet of paper, etc.) is a ''hexagon''? To cite some examples, in the [[Miniseries]] Roslin is handed a slip of paper describing the Cylon attack on a networked Battlestar. That slip is a hexagon. Adama's picture frame of him, Zak and Lee is also a hexagon. Even the computers are hexagons. Now, a hexagon has 6 sides (half of 12, which is seemingly a symbolic number in the series), and is a practical shape for use (12-gons would be stupid for paper) so does anyone think that the hexagon is some kind of symbolic shape for the Colonials?

Also, in the [[Delphi Museum of the Colonies]], Starbuck is walking past display cases full of ancient pottery. Culture is transmitted in the form of art and artifacts, so while this may be trivial I feel like it is worth noting.

In addition to this, notice how Elosha's priestess garment is pretty eccentric, while Brother Cavil's uniform is a plain black cassock with some purple decorations. A difference of garb choice for priestesses and priests, perhaps?

Furthermore, in the [[Miniseries]], notice those Caprican mothers carting their babies around the city in those oversized plastic baby carriages that look like they provide too much protection for the tots. Perhaps a link to the Scripture statement saying that life is precious and should be protected? I can't think of any other way for the carriage manufacturer to be willing to put extra money into obtaining more plastic resources for the increased carriage size and safety. No wait, lawsuits... But that still wouldn't explain the supersized babymobiles and extra costs and materials needed for manufacturing.

Cereals! In [[Sacrifice]] (I think, I'm not sure), Roslin tells an aggressive Billy Keikaya, "Looks like someone ate their Wheaties today." Okay, so...General Mills was actually a ''Colonial'' corporation and they imported it to Earth while we weren't looking. This might just imply that the Colonials also ate Cascadian Farm, Frescarini, Lucky Charms, Chex Mix, Cheerios, Hamburger Helper...the list goes on. Either that or I'm just making a big deal over some trivial prodcut placement.

Finally, in TOS, most of the buildings in Caprica (with exception of Long Beach City Hall where the episode was filmed), were pyramids. In the RDM series, there aren't as many pyramids, but there are a couple in Caprica City (let me get the image). Since there is circumstantial evidence that life began on Earth, does anyone think these pyramids could be a link with the Egyptians, who already had a thriving civilization and the Giza pyramids built by the time Greece (and perhaps the Kobol-sect) became an ancient powerhouse?

Taking all of this into consideration, should I initiate a "Culture" section for the Twelve Colonies (RDM)? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 14:36, 3 July 2006 (CDT)
:According the the episode transcript...
:'''[[Laura Roslin]]''': Someone took their vitamins this morning. 
:'''[[Billy Keikeya]]''': Yeah, I don't know what got into me. 
:--''[[Sacrifice]]''
:There's an "[[Arts and Literature of the Twelve Colonies|arts and lit article]]" under construction for the 12 Colonies seriesthat might be a home for some of the architecture, pottery, etc. notes. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:08, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks, Steelviper. I'll look into that. --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 15:18, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

[[Image:Mini-Caprica City.jpg]]
Here's the image. Look to the FAR right hand side and note the two pyramid office buildings, one with steep lateral faces and the other looking kind of like a glass reproduction of the Giza pyramids. --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 14:41, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

Arts and Lit is where we're working on that. Note, that it's really just an in-joke from the Miniseries: they had to "cut corners" on the production due to budget restraints, so it started out as a joke that they were "cutting corners" on everything. The problem was, as this series progressed this became a logistical nightmare, as literally hours of work had to be spent into doing this, i.e. stacks of books in Cain's quarters. As for the image....I'm sorry but it's too vague to actually make out if it's anything. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:24, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

== Links ==

Folks, I've noticed there's some ambiguity going on with the Wiki reference links, and I think we should probably straighten them out. In short, do we want to link to the astrological sign, or the constellations? I note this because I just cleaned up a few of the links before realizing this should be discussed, as (for example), someone had [[Wikipedia:Capricorn|Capricorn]] point to the WP page there, which is a disambig page, instead of [[Wikipedia:Capricorn (astrology)|Capricorn (astrology)]] or [[Wikipedia:Capricornus|Capricorn'''us''']] (the constellation; note the spelling, as there's at least one more constellation that swings this way - [[Wikipedia:Scorpius|Scorpius]]). Just a thought or two to muddy the waters further. ^_^--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 22:00, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
:I'd prefer to link to the constellations. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:08, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Done and done, then.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:44, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

User:LucentPhoenix

2006-11-20T14:46:19Z

LucentPhoenix:

I'm a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiGnome WikiGnome]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Babel Languages]: 
EN 
ES-2 
IT-1

Talk:The Twelve Colonies of Kobol/Archive3

2006-11-20T14:26:46Z

LucentPhoenix: /* Residence vs. Tribe */

==Question==

Do we know that the colonies are necessarily on 12 worlds? Can someone find a reference? It's clear that virgon and caprica are in the same star system, and that each colony can have more than one city, (dephi, in caprica), but is there some reason why two colonies can't be on the same planet?

==Merge proposal==

This article, and the articles for each of the Twelve Colonies, are all very short, and I don't see any of them expanding substantially in the near future. I think it would make for a nice looking, meaty article if we merged in each of the individual colony articles with this one under first-level headings. How say you all? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:50, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I know this looks weird and kind of dumb. I'm still fiddling. It's easy to revert if the whole thing ends up being too hideous to bear. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:17, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

[[image:Banner_unknown1.gif|left|75px]][[image:Banner_unknown2.gif|right|75px]]
: I like the idea and whats up now. If we knew more about each colony, it would look nicer, but until then I think this is fine. Now... What to do with these other two banners? Now, the two colonies without banners are Leo and Aquarius, the lion and the water-bearer. Both of these symbols could be a water-bearer, I guess, but I think the black and white one looks like he has whisters, there and that shape at the top looks more ear-like. That would leave the blue and red one to be the water bearer, which I think makes sense enough. Think we could drop those in with a note as to their speculative nature, or best not to? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:27, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::I'm leaving this one up to [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]], our resident flag-hunter. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The two colonies without banners is Aquarius and whatever the colonial name is for Libra. I saw in the mini-series they mentioned a colony called "ICON" alongside of "PICON" so I'm a little weirded out. As for Leonis, that flag has been found. I did a picture search in google for the zodiac's constellation and found the flag's symbol looked exactly like what I have designated. I can't remember, but I believe the constellation for Libra looked quite similar to the black one. Since we don't yet know as of yet what is the name for the Libra colony, I have left it blank. [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]

:At least we know it isn't Ophiuchi or something. Roslin identifies Libra in the Tomb of Athena map room, although she doesn't give its modern name. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:59, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Realizing that it's still being worked on, it looks awful right now. You can't tell which banner goes to which colony, for one thing. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 08:30, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Personally, I don't really like the combination of all 12 colonies together either since there is no set border and down the road we will have pictures relating to each colony. This will make it slower to download. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 12:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The problem, in my opinion, is that there's little to do at the main article other than simply list the colonies, and the majority of the individual colonies are stub-like in length. As for images, Caprica is the only planet we've seen thus far and probably the only one we're likely to see (unless we get Scorpion in a flashback in Pegasus or something). One thing we can do, if it becomes necessary, is link to full-length articles from just underneath the first-level headings.

:As for the banners, I agree that they could be confusing but I rather like them right now. Do either of you think it coudl be re-arranged in a better manner (maybe if they didn't alternate sides? But then there'd be a lot more wasted space)? Or is it a lost cause in your opinions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:20, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::Yeah, you could try putting all the banners on the right. See how it looks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 14:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::There, that's what they look like right-aligned. Frankly, I think they look better alternating. I don't find it confusing, and the wasted space bugs me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::Hate to say it, but I don't like it at all. The banners overlap with the previous colony's "box", there are no clear markers indicating where one section begins and another ends, it just looks bad. (Part of the problem is that we don't have much information about many of the colonies at this point.) --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:07, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::It'd be better if we could insert a line across the entire page, and have the colony name under that line, along with the banner on the right. Then each colony would have a neat, easily readable section. I don't know if Wiki markup is capable of that though. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:10, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::I still think it's a better option than thirteen articles that are completely insubstantial on their own. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I added captions to some of the banners, and in the process deleted some of the <nowiki><div></nowiki> markup. Wikipedia recommends against using HTML ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_markup_with_HTML]), and I've been trying to learn from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_image_syntax Extended image syntax] page. I can't figure out why a new section like <nowiki>==Caprica==</nowiki> doesn't appear on the same level as its banner. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:09, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:Ah ha! The wonders of '''<nowiki> </nowiki>'''! What do you guys think of the formatting now? --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:28, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::My HTML/CSS was not used lightly. That's really the one way to get the banners at the section heading level as I did. Frankly this seems like a more cumbersome version of my right-aligned attempt. I really dislike the caption boxes, too.
::I have a new idea: Rather than use the (rather long) banners, we can grab the icons from each, along with the background colors, and use them. I've created nine high-resolution versions from QuintusCinna's originals, which you can link to below:
::[http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/aerelon.png Aerelon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/canceron.png Canceron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/caprica.png Caprica], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/gemenon.png Gemenon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/picon.png Picon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/sagittaron.png Sagittaron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpion.png Scorpion], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/tauron.png Tauron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/virgon.png Virgon]
::These could be scaled down to almost any size and still look nice. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:35, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Without caption boxes, it's not clear what the banners are. I know it seems self-explanatory to us, but for someone who's never seen them before, it's not. I'll take a look at the icons in a bit. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 17:03, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I find repeating "This is the Banner of X" to be tedious, and the red background to be jarring. Couldn't we simply note that the banner/icon/flag/colors of the colony is provided to the right? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:06, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Peter. You've saved us all. As I said earlier, I liked it when the banner appeared to be hanging from the red line under its colony's name. I share Peter's dislike for tons of white space and alternating the sides seemed to create the least of that. However, if we just had the emblem and colors from each flag, we could do it below the red line as Fang seems to like, and not have this huge, long graphic. Maybe we can then link the full banner pics and, if we get enough information that a given colony's article wouldn't be a stub, we can display it there. Does all that make sense? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I like it with banners to right, with titling, albeit a little redundant. Not sure how to deal with the "white space" of many areas, but we're really not going to get them filled until we get more data, so that is that. I feel it's informative enough as it stands, but I'll leave the formatting arguments alone. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:52, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

==Which flag is which?==
A close viewing of [[Colonial Day]] indicates that the flag currently labeled as [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]] belongs to Safiya Sanne's seat - either Picon or Leonis; and that the black flag belongs to Robin Wenutu's seat (Canceron), and that VIrgon's flag is a white field with a green inner stripe and yellow outer stripe. I'm curious as to how QuintusCinna came to his conclusion that the delegates aren't seated at their apprporiate flags, since I don't know any other evidence linking particular flags to colonies. I guess Scorpion is pretty obvious, though. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:34, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Don't trust the banners lining up with those they represent in [[Colonial Day]]. The reason I say this is that [[Tom Zarek]] is in one area of the room and his very obvious banner for Sagitarron is completely in another area. This is the same for Virgon's banner and their representative. There are 3 different questions I carry thanks to the shows I have watched. In the mini-series we see the banners are in this order from left to right: [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Virgon|Virgon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], Scorpion, Aquaria(?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]], Libra (?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Sagittaron|Sagittaron]], [[Canceron]] (?), [[Leonis]]. Is this in the order that the colonies signed the unification treaty or is the order for the flags random or is it in the order they were nuked? Though I am sure the producers, directors, and such just put them up in random order, it is now a sense of fact for the show. If we were to believe they were placed up there, the banners must be up there in some order that is according to military protocol for flag bearing. In Colonial Day I add 2 more questions. We see that the banners are behind the delegates in a different order than in the mini-series. This means they were either a) put up randomly or b) have a separate purpose than those shown at the end of the mini-series (nuked, treaty order, or other). Then we see that the delegates are put in a different order than the banners behind them. The Gemenon delegate is clearly seen toward the middle and the Gemenon flag is clearly in a different area. The same questions come up for the delegates: are they randomly placed or is there reason. It's not alphabetical, and placements of delegates and banners in every society is always in some sort of traditional order. I hope that the Battlestar Galactica producers, writers, and such will be able to answer this though I suspect they won't because they have REAL lives.

As for the Picon flag, the constellation looks quite similar to the picon banner and the same goes for Tauron's with Taurus. I have no doubt with those. The Libra's icon can be seen in this picture http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HorseAstrology/AstrologySymbol.gif 2 clockwise from Sagittarius.
--[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 1:12, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

==New Icons==
What do you think? We might consider making them smaller and removing the image frame and caption, but I'd also be happy leaving them as they are. It's nice to have a place to note that some of the symbols are only tentatively identified with the colonies in question. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:It looks fine. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 09:11, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I like 'em. I'd say smaller, though. Of course... I have my thumb settings to 300px so that screen shots are large enough to be intelligible, so smaller to me would be about 150px or 100px. I also like alternating for balance, but that's just me. I alternate right a left in other articles, too. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:21, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

I have a set of colonial glyphs that were lifted from a copy of the voting ballots used in Lay Down Your Burdens Pt1. I can upload both the cap of the ballot and the vector graphics file of the glyphs. I've already released the glyphs for public use, so I have no problem with their being used here. The ballot image I have has Baltar's name blurred out, as that was a spoiler at the time the image was released. The image orginally came from the Reproduction Props Forum, where a member got hold of one of the actual props used in the episode. --[[User:Scotchfairy|Scotchfairy]] 14:54, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

:Thanks for the offer. It would be nice to get a look at them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:16, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
::Okay, I've uploaded the four jpgs I have of the voting ballot. They still reside on my server at the moment. If you decide to include them in the wiki, I'll upload them to the database. 
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotSm.jpg Small Image of Ballot Front]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotFront.jpg Large Image of Ballot Front]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotBack.jpg Large Image of Ballot Back]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/PaperProps/VotingBallotTop.jpg Very Large Image of Ballot Top]
::* [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/ColonialGlyphs.gif My version of the colonial glyphs (gif)]
:: If you want to play with the Photoshop custom shapes file, it's [http://www.retro.com/employees/lee/Art/BSG/LeesBSGshapes.csh.zip here (zip)]. [[User:Scotchfairy|Scotchfairy]] 00:25, 2 August 2006 (CDT)

==Residence vs. Tribe==

I think there's a difference between "where a character currently makes their residence" and "what colony they are from". I think "what colony they are from" means "what ''tribe''" they are. For example, Dualla could have been away from Sagittaron for years and lived on another Colony, but she's still from the Sagittaron tribe. In "Bastille Day", she describes herself as "a Sagittaron", not "someone ''from'' Sagittaron".

Anyway, I also think that non-canonical information from SkyOne website should not be used in assuming Stabuck may be from Picon, not Caprica. We should wait until this is said on either the Scifi.com official site, or on screen.
--Ricimer, 16 Sept, 2005

:Actually, Dee did say "I'm from Sagittaron". [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:56, 10 July 2006 (CDT)

===Baltar as a "native"===

I agree with the above sentiment. Under the [[The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29#Natives_2|Caprica Natives]] section, it lists Gaius Baltar, but then clearly states "(Born on Sagittaron)." If that is the case, then he is a native of ... drumroll please ... '''Sagittaron''', not Caprica. He may have resided there, but he was a Sagitton.

I think this should be changed, but didn't want to just change it without some discussion. Unless there is a good reason given, though, I'm going to make the change.

[[User:LucentPhoenix|LucentPhoenix]] 08:26, 20 November 2006 (CST)

==Outposts==

Ricimer wrote: ''The Colonials actually expanded their sphere of influence over time beyond the original Twelve Colonies to include several outposts, bases, and mining colonies (such as [[Troy]]) in other systems ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html| RDM, January 30, 2005]), though they were apparently minor extensions of the original Twelve Colonies rather than independently functioning worlds in their own right, and when the Cylons overwhelmed the Twelve Colonies themselves no mention is even explicity made about these minor worlds, seeming to take it as a given that the destruction of the Twelve Colonies would equal the destruction of humanity, and that these outposts were not significant enough to pose any challenge to the Cylon fleet.''

RDM's actual comments are:

:Q: "Did the colonies have outposts, bases, or trade partners outside of the 12 colonies. Did they even explore other systems. The colonies could have had observatories, listening posts, or even scientific research teams exploring other planets beyond the colonial system(s). They could encounter any of these which could lead to supplies, raw materials, food, fuel etc. "

:RDM: I think that's probably true, but part of our premise is that the fleet has Jumped far out into unexplored space in an effort to elude the Cylons, so we won't be encountered any other outposts or colonies.

I think that's a very weak confirmation, and if we're going to include it here, it should reflect the vagueness of RDM's actual comment. I have replaced it with the following:

:Ronald D. Moore has suggested that the Colonies probably maintained some minor observatories and listening posts in outlying star systems, but it is unlikely that ''Galactica'' will encounter them in the course of the series. ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html#a000016|RDM, January 30, 2005])

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 15 December 2005 (EST)

==Scorpion vs. Scorpia==

At present, we have a name card from "[[Colonial Day]]" and the name of the [[Scorpia Traveler]] in favor of "Scorpia", and the [[Scorpion Fleet Shipyards]] in favor of "Scorpion". Ricimer, if you want to make a case for "Scorpion" over "Scorpia", you ''must'' cite an episode quote, and I will not produce it for you. Your uncited revisions are anathema to our goal of accuracy. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:34, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:I am sorry, I was in a hurry to get out and didn't have time to wip out my copy of the series companion. On p.86 of "Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion", by David Bassom, there is an "''early'' concept sketch of the flags of the Twele Colonies"; On this, it lists the names "Scorpia", but also "Libran", and "Aquarion". "[[Colonial Day]]" established that these two Colonies are in fact named "Libra" and "Aquaria", in dialog, etc. This evidence has led me to believe that "Scorpia" was amongst some early ideas for Colony names that were thrown around in the early stages of production, but which were later changed; however, the art and props department wasn't notified of the switch, or made a mistake, etc. I'm also inclined to this line of thinking because the props in this scene feature several now-infamous goofs, such as the switcheroo between Canceron, Picon, Leonis, etc., etc. As for the evidence from "Scorpia Traveler", there's also a "Gemini" ship, as well as mispelling etc. which have led me to the belief that certain ship names are just meant for asthetic value and do not necessarily reflect the actual name of their home Colony. In "Home, Part II" it was established that the Colonies used to have "ancient names" which align more closely to the signs of the Zodiac, but which over the millenia have drifted away into their present form. Perhaps some ship captains just felt like naming their vessels after the more ancient names. I don't know. But the main points remain: A) Ship names aren't very reliable as an information source, B) this scene had many goofs in it, C) the official companion shows that this was an early name thrown around, but later abandoned, and several of these early names have been disproven by this point. Therefore, I think "Scorpion Fleet Shipyards", the first ''prominent'' mention of Scorpion/Scorpia, taken with the above evidence, proves that the true name of the Colony is "Scorpion". What's everyone else's consensus? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:24, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I'm with Ricimer on this one.--Zareck Rocks 15:04, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I agree with Ricimer, as Cain's mention of the "scorpion fleet shipyards" is the only canonical reference to place when it comes to the scorpio-related colony. It has also been shown, as Ricimer mentions above, that the ship names seem to be variations of the colony names i.e. [[Gemenon Taveller]] and the [[Gemini]]. So we can't necessarily glean the name of the scorpio-related colony from the [[Scorpia Traveller]], for there may also be a Scorpion Traveller.
::However, unless someone can verify this with subtitles, Cain could be saying Scorpi''an'' fleet shipyards, rather than Scorpi''on'', thereby inferring that the colony name is Scorpia (I dare to speculate that the Caprica would have it's own Caprican fleet shipyards(if it did indeed have shipyards)). I don't have the DVDs, as they're not yet available in Canada, but someone should really check this, it could answer this question --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 16:20, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::I've grepped the TwizTV logs, and the Scorpia/Scorpion colony has never been referred to apart from the instances we've already listed. So, here's what that means:
:::#We have a mention of the "Scorpia Traveler", which matches the "Gemenon Traveler". "Freighter Gemini" is a TOS reference.
:::#We have a comment that might be the "Scorpion" shipyards, or the "Scorpian" shipyards.
:::#We have a clear and readable screenshot of the name of the colony.
:::We should not "correct" the name of the colony to what we think it "should" be, when we have unequivocal evidence staring us in the face. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::I'm sorry, but it doesn't really seem like the above evidence is "unequivocal". Thankfully, I think "Resurrection Ship" will make further mention of ''Pegasus' '' flight from the shipyards, and we will probably hear the name again. Best to wait until then. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:05, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::Let me clarify. We have at least seen "Scorpia" spelled out. We have never even ''heard'' "Scorpion", except in a context that might easily have been "Scorpian". In my opinion, the two options here are "Scorpia" or "We don't know". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::Wait a minute, someone out there has got to have the DVD set of the second season, we should be able to determine the definitive name of the scorpio colony from that. Although, I suppose, Peter, that you're suggesting we leave it at Scorpia until someone can check the subtitles. That sounds fine with me. --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 22:56, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::How will that tell us definitively? It was only mentioned in "Pegasus", in the ambiguous dialogue mentioned above. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:00, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::Like I said, we stand a good chance of hearing it again in the very next two episodes, so I suggest we leave things as they are, and reach a final decision after "Resurrection Ship, Part II". Although we could get subtitles from the DVD, subtitles can be notoriously innaccurate when it comes to the finer points of spelling, i.e. Scorpion vs. Scorpian. Perhaps we could rewatch Pegasus, and check the inflection that Michelle Forbes uses; I ''think'' she clearly said "-ion" (as opposed to "-ian"). I'll check again; however, even hearing the dialog personally, I doubt this will give a DEFINATIVE answer in ANY form as the actress could have been just slurring it. I don't know. Well, I'll check for the sake of checking. Again, I think we should "wait and see" on this one. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:11, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::I just watched the episode and the subtitles (however inaccurate) do say "Scorpion." It does sound like Forbes says more of an -ion than -ian. Just my two cents. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:30, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Thank you Talos. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:04, 26 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Scorpion would be pronounced with the full vowel "{{IPA|piɑn}}, while "Scorpian" would use a reduced vowel, {{IPA|piən}} or {{IPA|piɨn}}. The latter is what I hear, although Ricimer is right that it could just be "slurring". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:09, 26 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::::I've isolated Michelle Forbes's pronunciation of "Scorpi_n" and uploaded it [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpian.wav here]. Unfortunately, the last syllable is basically whispered and cannot be analyzed for vowel formants. It does sound very reduced to me, however. This is not usually the case for Picon, Gemenon, etc. which are almost always realized with full vowels.
:::::::::::Note, by the way, that the ''animal'' spelled "Scorpion" would be pronounced the same as the adjective "Scorpian", while a colony called Scorpion would be pronounced "Skor-pee-on". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:05, 28 December 2005 (EST)

Final call for objections before I move the relevant articles. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:23, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

== Location ==

I didn't want to get into a revert war, so... How, exactly, are the colonies' positions indicated in the Tomb of Athena? I just watched that ep last night and I don't remember any arrows or name tags... If the theory is that the colonies are inside the constellation that shares their name, then I think I'll have to disagree. Not possible. The zodiac constellations are spread about in our sky in a circle, meaning they're not very near each other at all (so if "the Colonies" can be considered some single area of space that's small enough to go from one end to another inside months they need to be closer than a large ring of space encircling Earth) and all the stars in a constellation aren't even necessarily near each other. --[[User:Day|Day]] 10:42, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I don't think the positions of the Twelve Colonies are indicated at all by the tomb of Athena. It's just a map to Earth (Earth being the only spot where those constellations would appear in that configuration). It is interesting that would mean that there isn't a direct correlation between the constellations and the colonies that they are named after... (other than as a rememberance of where they came from, kind of). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:50, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:The fact of the matter is that the Tomb of Athena holographic map to Earth shows constellations made of the symbols of the Twelve Tribees/Colonies; these constellations are '''entirely arbitrary'''; that is, they were designated purely because they resemble the symbols of the Colonies; each planet of the 12 is in ''no way'' in each constellation. Besides, that would mean they'd often end up in separate galaxies. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::Well, no, not separate galaxies, but further apart from each other than each is from earth. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:34, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::: My point exactly, Peter. Well said. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:05, 5 January 2006 (EST)

Can we take the part about all the colonies orbiting the same star out of the article? I think it's pretty clear that they're all separate systems, unless someone has different information. --[[User:Bahamut|Bahamut]] 02:42, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:Why do you think that's clear? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:59, 12 March 2006 (CST)

::Mostly because of the use of FTL technology, but also because of the improbability of a star having twelve planets that can support human life. It's discussed elsewhere in the Wiki that it's likely they're all separate systems. Maybe instead of taking it out altogether we should add a caveat about how it's disputed or at least link to the other discussion? --[[User:Bahamut|Bahamut]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Upon re-watching the Miniseries (IMHO anyway) all references are given as hours from caprica, but when the war alert first goes off and Cmdr Adama asks to "scan the system" (circa 48mins in) the report is given that "Now, looks like the main fight is shaping up over here near Virgon's orbit" and a few lines latter "If we can keep Virgon between us and the battle". Which to me means that Virgon, Caprica and Ragnar (a gas giant) are all in the same solar system. thoughts anyone? [[User:Pickle UK|Pickle UK]] 00:45, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:I think this is a settled issue. From Moore's blog, [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/#a000016 30 January 2005]:
::Does it make sense that there would be a star system with 12 inhabitable planets? Not really, but that was in the original and at some point I decided to run with that as another nod to the old show.
:--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:56, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:::An important note on this topic is that among young stars, they tend to be grouped in what is known as "stellar associations" which are several stars that are gravitational bound together by virtue of them all being born at the same time in the same stellar nursery and all being within a light year of each other; hence you could call them a system. Now, over time as they get more to our Sun's age, they will disapate over a great distance and no longer be associated, but this is over 100s of millions to billions of years. Generally it is considered unlikely that such young stars bear planets that possess life but does not rule out the idea that they have planets... earth-like planets. Therefore, a stellar association, possessing 12 or more stars....all within a light year of each other...--[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 01:40, 10 April 2006 (PST)

::::Honestly, this is the sort of speculation that impedes my enjoyment of the show. It doesn't matter, and I don't care. Feel free to speculate as you will, but I think the whole debate is distracting and unworthy of more than a footnote. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:37, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

== More on flags ==

I found this a while ago. A user on Sci-Fi.com's messageboard going by "bescincimevsim" has made some incredible renderings of all twelve colonial flags that, in my oppinion look very good and accurate to what has been seen on the show. It might be worth checking out the [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1310569&Searchpage=2&Main=1310569&Words=bescincimevsim&topic=&Search=true#Post1310569 topic here]. I ''think'' they might be avalible for free use, but then again the guy doesn't seem to be available for contact anymore a he posted only one topic, the one about the flags, then stopped posting altogether in mid October. Either way, I think it should be worth checking out. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 18:05, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:We should not use these. I think they're just fanart. There is a page in the official companion of *early* flag designs (the names are wrong in some cases, etc. so this page of the book is an early draft and shouldn't be used as fact). However, this guy also confuses the symbols of Tauron and Leonis. I mean it's just a guy posting on a messageboard. The Citation Crusade wouldn't stand for it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::The assignment of colony and flag is obviously non-canon, but the graphics themselves are far superior to the ones we're using. We should ask him to license them to us under the CCL. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:56, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::Alternately, if he can be contacted, ask him to create corrected ones based on a CCL.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 14:40, 2 February 2006 (EST)
::Well, I've done some tweaking to our icons making them look a little crisper and sort-of rationalised the originals by QuintusCinna and the ones seen on the Sci-Fi BBS by bescincimevsim. I'll upload them soon and if you don't like them then I guess you can just revert them later. Just thought I'd help out, is all. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 00:12, 17 March 2006 (CST)

:::I think they're an improvement. Thank you, Kahran. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:57, 17 March 2006 (CST)

==Colonial Flags==
The Colonial Flags, as listed on this page, have been matched to their colonies based solely on on-screen evidence. Given their dubious veracity on other matters, I am not prepared to take the Official Magazine's word for it over what we've actually seen — at least not without a discussion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:Okay, then you should know that the flags also match what is written in the Battlestar Galactica The Official Companion. It has a page for Colonial Day that lists the flasg for each colony and it's the smae as the Magazine flag listings, so that's two sources that support my listings as opposed the shoddy on-screen evidence from the episodes. --Ltcrashdown 22:30, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've examined the footage of Colonial Day and QuintusCinna's arguments, and concluded that they aren't very strong. I'm going to revert this back to your version. Do you have a cite for the Official Companion as well? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:35, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::Here's the info: Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion by David Bassom, page 86, Published by Titan Books, London, August 2005
:::By the way, what was QuintusCinna's source?--Ltcrashdown 22:39, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::::For the colonies at issue here, it was mostly conjecture on his part. I remembered his argument having more basis than it actually did. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 8 February 2006 (EST)

== We are Gemenese if you Please! ==

I think the way this works (and once we nail it down, we should put it on S&C, probably) is that someone ''from'' Gemenon is a Gemenon, but the adjective for describing them is Gemenese. So, like, a nice Gemenese Rug or something. This is a throwback to the language of Gemenese in TOS, I think. Now... Is someone from Caprica Caprican and "a Caprica" or does that one match the adjective (like I'm from Texas, thus I am Texan and "a Texan" if that helps)? Whatcha think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:07, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== Aerilon? ==

Unless someone cites a source on this spelling correction, I think this needs to be reverted. Anyone? --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 19:46, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:Seems like other people are using it: http://s9.invisionfree.com/Ragnar_Anchorage/index.php?showtopic=658 the same way. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:52, 20 March 2006 (CST)
::It is also on http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/ships/ships/ on the Celestra bio. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:55, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::: Well, the forum link is inconclusive, as the poster using that spelling questions it himself and is not, quite frankly, a reliable source. The SciFi.com link is more helpful, but still doesn't help much. They have two different spellings for a couple of the Colonies still around their site, so we can't really trust them on this. Does anyone have a copy of the various writings spawned from the show? If the companions and magazines and scifi.com all agreed, even though none of those are on our big list of accepted sources, I'd consider that a pretty good indication that we'd been misspelling it this whole time. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:30, 20 March 2006 (CST)

==Spelling==
This topic keeps coming up, and our spelling conventions do not seem to match the ones generally used throughout fandom, so I want to have a definitive location for sources on spelling used here. Our emphasis, as always, is on citation and accuracy.

The names of six of the colonies can be seen fully spelled out in the episode "Colonial Day". There should be no room for debate on these.
<gallery>
Image:sp-canceron.jpg|Canceron
Image:sp-caprica.jpg|Caprica
Image:sp-gemenon.jpg|Gemenon
Image:sp-leonis.jpg|Leonis
Image:sp-sagittaron.jpg|Sagittaron
Image:sp-virgon.jpg|Virgon
</gallery>

We can also see the first three letters of "Picon": 
[[Image:sp-picon.jpg|sp-picon.jpg]] 
There's no serious controversy here, as no other spelling has been proposed for that colony.

Although not visible in the episode, the spelling of Scorpia can be clearly seen in a high-resolution [http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/1.11/imagepages/image6.html publicity still]: 
[[Image:sp-scorpia.jpg|150px]] 
This is complicated by [[Helena Cain]]'s reference to the "Scorpian Fleet Shipyards" in the episode "[[Pegasus (episode)]]". [[Talk:The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Scorpion vs. Scorpia|Extensive discussion]] on battlestar wiki concluded that the visual evidence should be deferred to, and also suggested that she may have been using "Scorpian" as an adjectival form of the colony's name. This was supported by Michelle Forbes's use of a reduced vowel in the final syllable, while other colony names used throughout the series have used the fully realized vowel /ɑ/.

The names "Aquaria" and "Tauron" were given in "[[Colonial Day]]" and "[[Pegasus (episode)]]", respectively. There is no serious debate on their spelling.

Very little evidence is available regarding the colony corresponding to Libra. Neither it nor its citizens have ever been mentioned in the miniseries or 33 episodes aired to date, nor has RDM mentioned the colony in his blog. SciFi.com's website refers to the [[Space Park]] as being of "Libran" registry, but it is unclear whether this is meant to be the nominal or adjectival form of the colony's name (see below).

The name of the colony corresponding to Aries was named as {{IPA|'ɛɹ.lɑn}} in "[[Bastille Day]]". Two spellings have been proposed. It is worth noting that the second vowel, which is the one at issue, is not actually pronounced by actress Mary McDonnell.

'''AERILON''' 
'''Official Use'''

The SciFi.com website refers to the [[Celestra]] as being of "Aerilon" registry. This is apparently the nominal form, despite the anomalous use of the adjectival "Caprica" on the "Colonial One" entry on the same webpage. (The adjectival forms of Scorpia (Scorpian, established in "[[Pegasus (episode)]]") and Tauron (Tauranian, established in "[[Resistance]]") are not used.)

RDM uses this spelling in a [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/#a000016 blog entry] dated 30 January, 2005.

'''Fan Use'''
*Google returns approximately [http://www.google.com/search?q=aerilon 400 matches] for this spelling.
*This spelling is used by transcript website SadGeezer.com.

'''AERELON''' 
'''Fan Use'''
*Google returns approximately [http://www.google.com/search?q=aerelon 300 matches] for this spelling.
*[http://tviv.org/wiki/Battlestar_Galactica_(2003)/The_Twelve_Colonies TV IV]
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:34, 23 March 2006 (CST)

== Should I Add This Or Not? ==

On Wikipedia there is a lot more information on the Twelve Colonies, including founders and names of capital cities. Should I add this information to the corresponding colony section on this page or is this information that doesn't belong on this wiki? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 11:04, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
:We're pretty strict about [[BW:CITE|citations]] around here. Unless we can find official sources to back up that info, it doesn't belong here. I'm pretty sure that it hasn't been officially established names for all Twelve Lords of Kobol (if there are exactly twelve, as RDM was a bit vague on this), and I've got no idea where they are getting the capitol names from. If there is an official source, we'd be good, but it feels like this may be derived from fan fiction (which would have NO place on this article) or at best from novelizations/alternate continuity (which could at least be argued, but is still suspect). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:17, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
::Understood. I just reviewed the article and it said that the names were non-canonical. In that case, Wikipedia's information has NO place in this article. If the characters start listing off this information in the next seasons (which I SERIOUSLY doubt they will at this point), I can put it in. However, I want to note that I found confirmation for Aerelon's capital (including a photo) and the colony description on Google. You have to type "Aerelon" (make sure it's spelled EXACTLY like that) and then scroll down the top ten results page. The title is simply "Aerelon" and is located two results under the listing for our own wiki. The description starts with "Capital: Maegera"--[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 19:24, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
:::That's a fan site. Please read over the [[BW:CITE|Citation Jihad]] for a list of official sources. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:00, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

Thank you no end, Homeworld616, for pointing out this grievous error on Wikipedia. *One person* posted their own fanfic into there: they even left a warning label: "These following sections contain equal parts fanon and canon.".....er, it is impossible to be both "fanon" and "canon" at the same time. ----->'''I have personally deleted all of this fanfic from Wikipedia, and warned the user that posted it'''. Sorry, but they get all kinds on wikipedia. Thanks for asking us and bringing it to our attention 616--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:45, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

:No problem, Merovingian. It's my pleasure to help make Wikipedia and its associated sites better for all. I can't believe someone actually tried to pass their fanfic off as fact. Oh well, so long as it has been deleted. But we need to watch for other users posting crap around here. Wikipedia's Twelve Colonies may just be the beginning. To quote Shakespeare from ''The Tempest,'' "what is past is prologue." --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 01:12, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

== Notes on Culture ==

All right, has anyone noticed that in the Colonies, virtually everything that would be a rectangle here on Earth (pictureframe, sheet of paper, etc.) is a ''hexagon''? To cite some examples, in the [[Miniseries]] Roslin is handed a slip of paper describing the Cylon attack on a networked Battlestar. That slip is a hexagon. Adama's picture frame of him, Zak and Lee is also a hexagon. Even the computers are hexagons. Now, a hexagon has 6 sides (half of 12, which is seemingly a symbolic number in the series), and is a practical shape for use (12-gons would be stupid for paper) so does anyone think that the hexagon is some kind of symbolic shape for the Colonials?

Also, in the [[Delphi Museum of the Colonies]], Starbuck is walking past display cases full of ancient pottery. Culture is transmitted in the form of art and artifacts, so while this may be trivial I feel like it is worth noting.

In addition to this, notice how Elosha's priestess garment is pretty eccentric, while Brother Cavil's uniform is a plain black cassock with some purple decorations. A difference of garb choice for priestesses and priests, perhaps?

Furthermore, in the [[Miniseries]], notice those Caprican mothers carting their babies around the city in those oversized plastic baby carriages that look like they provide too much protection for the tots. Perhaps a link to the Scripture statement saying that life is precious and should be protected? I can't think of any other way for the carriage manufacturer to be willing to put extra money into obtaining more plastic resources for the increased carriage size and safety. No wait, lawsuits... But that still wouldn't explain the supersized babymobiles and extra costs and materials needed for manufacturing.

Cereals! In [[Sacrifice]] (I think, I'm not sure), Roslin tells an aggressive Billy Keikaya, "Looks like someone ate their Wheaties today." Okay, so...General Mills was actually a ''Colonial'' corporation and they imported it to Earth while we weren't looking. This might just imply that the Colonials also ate Cascadian Farm, Frescarini, Lucky Charms, Chex Mix, Cheerios, Hamburger Helper...the list goes on. Either that or I'm just making a big deal over some trivial prodcut placement.

Finally, in TOS, most of the buildings in Caprica (with exception of Long Beach City Hall where the episode was filmed), were pyramids. In the RDM series, there aren't as many pyramids, but there are a couple in Caprica City (let me get the image). Since there is circumstantial evidence that life began on Earth, does anyone think these pyramids could be a link with the Egyptians, who already had a thriving civilization and the Giza pyramids built by the time Greece (and perhaps the Kobol-sect) became an ancient powerhouse?

Taking all of this into consideration, should I initiate a "Culture" section for the Twelve Colonies (RDM)? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 14:36, 3 July 2006 (CDT)
:According the the episode transcript...
:'''[[Laura Roslin]]''': Someone took their vitamins this morning. 
:'''[[Billy Keikeya]]''': Yeah, I don't know what got into me. 
:--''[[Sacrifice]]''
:There's an "[[Arts and Literature of the Twelve Colonies|arts and lit article]]" under construction for the 12 Colonies seriesthat might be a home for some of the architecture, pottery, etc. notes. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:08, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks, Steelviper. I'll look into that. --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 15:18, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

[[Image:Mini-Caprica City.jpg]]
Here's the image. Look to the FAR right hand side and note the two pyramid office buildings, one with steep lateral faces and the other looking kind of like a glass reproduction of the Giza pyramids. --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 14:41, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

Arts and Lit is where we're working on that. Note, that it's really just an in-joke from the Miniseries: they had to "cut corners" on the production due to budget restraints, so it started out as a joke that they were "cutting corners" on everything. The problem was, as this series progressed this became a logistical nightmare, as literally hours of work had to be spent into doing this, i.e. stacks of books in Cain's quarters. As for the image....I'm sorry but it's too vague to actually make out if it's anything. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:24, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

== Links ==

Folks, I've noticed there's some ambiguity going on with the Wiki reference links, and I think we should probably straighten them out. In short, do we want to link to the astrological sign, or the constellations? I note this because I just cleaned up a few of the links before realizing this should be discussed, as (for example), someone had [[Wikipedia:Capricorn|Capricorn]] point to the WP page there, which is a disambig page, instead of [[Wikipedia:Capricorn (astrology)|Capricorn (astrology)]] or [[Wikipedia:Capricornus|Capricorn'''us''']] (the constellation; note the spelling, as there's at least one more constellation that swings this way - [[Wikipedia:Scorpius|Scorpius]]). Just a thought or two to muddy the waters further. ^_^--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 22:00, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
:I'd prefer to link to the constellations. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:08, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Done and done, then.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:44, 9 October 2006 (CDT)