Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Final Five/Archive 1

2008-06-13T06:36:59Z

Lilianne Blaze:

== Promo Image ==

I took the image into photoshop (I do minor image tweaking at my job), did everything I could to enhance it, just for fun. And I'd like to make a grandiose speculation that the Five look, well, slightly mutilated...or mutated. Botched Cylon experiments, torutred and insane minds!!! I don't know, That one "fellow's" hand reaching to Three looks awefully stumpy...of course it could always be some foreshortening.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:57, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Yup, totally convinced they are mutilated and grotesque, their faces, albiet shrouded are just a little odd and produce strange shadow tones.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 11:17, 3 January 2007 (CST)

:It is also possible that the show is intentionally masquerading their faces to allow the show to cast anyone in these roles at a later time, rather than fixing the faces of the characters right away. In any case, any interpretations of these promo shots are too speculative to make a valid assessment. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:38, 3 January 2007 (CST)

We should get rid of the main picture - we don't know for sure that they are in fact the Final Five, they may be simply a hallucation on the part of D'eanna when she resurrects/is boxed.
Or perhaps the five temple priests who are not Cylons. Point is, we don't know --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 06:26, 10 January 2007 (CST)
:Writer's often portray canon information through a character, in this case D'Anna. That is the same vision she always has when she dies, we've already seen a part of the scene on "Hero", and it's what she's been seeing again and again. Her sketches and such are merely her representations of what she saw, this picture is what she actually saw. Anyways, even if you choose to not believe D'Anna, and even if you doubt the only logical explanation, I think David Eick confirmed that it's them she sees on a EW article. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:53, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== ID ==

Looking at the high resolution picture, I can identify most of the actors in these robes. Whether they actually are the Final Five Cylons or whether this is just a dream sequence and they grabbed whoever was convenient is not clear. From the left to the right:

# Aaron Douglas, better known as Chief Tyrol. The stature and facial features are a perfect match.
# Tahmoh Penikett, better known as Helo. This isn't as certain, but the lower face and stature both match.
# Unidentified female
# Unidentified female
# The big, bald Asian pilot who's always in the rec room.

[[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 21:32, 9 January 2007 (CST)

No two cylons can have a child which makes Tahmoh Penikett wrong. Don't know about the others, though the "Chief" guy is certainly too short --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 06:21, 10 January 2007 (CST)

:Major kudos if you are correct, cause I cartainly can't see it myself :P -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 06:27, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::They're just stand-ins, they don't release promo pics at random, and they wouldn't reveal anyone in such a way when having a chance to do it on screen. But as said before, those faces are vague enough to be almost anyone. They might have similarities, but a lot of people in the world can have similar features without looking the same. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:32, 10 January 2007 (CST)

::The thing of it is, is; we're all going to see what we want in them untill we actually see them. I'm pretty sure I'm not right (above comment) and fairly sure when they did these Promo pics and ambiguous #3 "in the hinterlands of Cylon death land" dreams, that they wouldn't have cast definite actors...it's a pretty significant choice to make of who should play the roles...so, stick some people in robes and shrouds to stand in and any old person will do for the snippets, clips, dream scenes and teaser tastys. we won't know 'till we know--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:42, 12 January 2007 (CST)

:Personally I think the show would be smart to not put all of their eggs in one basket on this whole final five thing. At least one of the five should be someone we've never seen, one should be someone who is alive and in the fleet and at least one should be someone who was in the fleet that has been dead for a while. Making all of the five sleepers who are in the fleet or making them all dead characters or all new characters wouldn't be very cool. Making it a balance between the three would be nice. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 19 January 2007.

I hate to repeat what's been stated, but I think Philwelch is looking way too hard because I see no one - and I mean ''no one'' familar in that image. Not even a vague similarity. I'm certain they're just stand-ins, but I find it odd that they'd release an image that shows so much, but also expect us not to see a match when the five are revealed. You'd figure they'd put more effort in hiding the faces, just to cover the bases. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:43, 22 January 2007 (CST)

== Reason for Locking ==

I don't want the server to flood or 4k people trying to edit this page. Take your time and finsh everything else first. Unprotect this at Midnight. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:21, 21 January 2007 (CST)

== Interpretation question ==

After thinking about this, there are only two individuals that believe that what D'anna/Three has seen is actually images of the final five Cylons: herself, and Baltar. The Colonials scripture know that the Temple of Five was human-built, long before the Cylons existed, and was related to five priests who may have worshiped someone different from the Lords of Kobol. There's plenty of inference (with Kara Thrace, Leoben, [[Dodona Selloi]], and the Threes) that there is a connection between the Lords of Kobol and the Cylon God. My problem is that, while the notion that the final five Cylons has been established, there isn't information ''between'' the characters that verifies that what Three has seen are actual Cylon or human figures.

For that reason, I am going to rewrite this article with a level of neutrality that does not support only Three's belief since there is Colonial connections that exist. The final five represent five human priestly people (blessed, cursed or otherwise cited) or five Cylons (boxed, or related somehow to the origin of the new Cylon, which, after "Rapture," is not clear-cut. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:31, 27 January 2007 (CST)
:Well....RDM called them "The Final Five" in his podcast...--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 10:03, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::The podcast doesn't elaborate on their nature, and Ron has twisted the truth before to keep the storyline a mystery until aired. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:06, 27 January 2007 (CST)

==Three wasn't the Only One==
I think we should also mention that Number Three wasn't the only Cylon to believe they were the Final Five. The Cavils believed it well enough to try to shoot her and even box her. So I think we should at least mention that they too believed Three was seeing the Final Five, enough to essentially eliminate 1/3 of their known female population. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:00, 27 January 2007 (CST)

The light that shines down as the Nova goes is real, and D'anna starts bleeding and dies for no other apparent reason. If it's an illusion in her mind, these things don't match.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 21:22, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:It didn't seem like an illusion, but rather a simple isolate hologram, which wouldn't be surprising since that's the kind of tech these things ususally have in them. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:35, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::The podcast supports the assumption that Three saw the actual Final Five, although I don't think it's explicitly stated. As for the device in the temple, there's quite a few possible explanations and I doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer about which one is correct. The device could've triggered both Three's death and the visions directly, the device could've triggered Three's death, resulting in a vision just like her previous deaths did or the device could've triggered the visions, resulting in Three's death due to some hypothetical built-in failsafe in Three. Each of those three possibilities also has a number of explanations (for example, if the device caused the visions, it may have been a technological substitute for [[chamalla]], it may have been designed to unlock repressed memories or in may have been programmed with the images of the Final Five at any time in the past 4000 years). -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:17, 2 February 2007 (CST)
::: It seems that [[projection]] would be a likely technology behind a vision seen only by here. Why a 4,000 year old temple would be able to do that is nor more a mystery than why it would be able to insert a vision any other way. Further reflection shows this image to possibly be different from the image in the Temple of Athena, which was more holodeck like, and seen by all.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:47, 2 February 2007 (CST)

==Warning - possibly big spoiler below==
I was watching Final Five photo, when I noticed face similarity to one of main characters face. I made some photo mainpulating, and results is below.

[http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9007/finalfivespoilerzq0.png] <-- POSSIBLE HEAVY SPOILER

It gives me around 60-70% sure, that this char is one of Final Five. Yet there are two other things - first - it's possible, that director didn't thought of that, and put this actor there to "fill the gap".

Second - as I've searched through characteristic of this one, I haven't even found slight connections to Cylon, and it would mess with storyline pretty badly.

What do you think about that? --[[User:XLII|XLII]] 16:41, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Again, don't take that picture too literally. It did not actually appear in the episode after all, and they chose not to show the faces in detail at the end. We don't know if it was actually shot that way at all and just cut, or if they are just stand-ins for a test shot or something. In any case, since we don't see the five in the episode, we can't draw any conclusions --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:58, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Also remember how much Leoben likes mixing truth and lies... "Adama is a Cylon." [[User:Wynler|Wynler]] 11:12, 29 January 2007 (CST)
::XLII your idea was a good one, but there's a flaw in your comparison. As you darken the image of the actor, that face overtakes the face of the Final Five. The jawlines match up, which makes it look like it's the same person, but watch the chin and the upper lip (and the 5 o'clock shadow) in pics 1&2 and 4&5. They're different. --[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 19:44, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Even if you forget for a moment that the people in the promo picture are just stand-ins Lee Adama is most defintly '''not''' a Cylon anyway we already worked that out. Because he is the son of someone else who is most definitly not a cylon and the Cylons are not copies of already existing people. See [[Humanoid Cylon speculation]] and [[Characters eliminated from suspicion]] --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
::::Not to mention that Lee has his fat makeup on there. Even if the images matched up, it wouldn't be a true likeness of Lee/Jamie Bamber.--[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 18:31, 2 February 2007 (CST)

What if the final five aren't cylons at all, but in fact are part of the priesthood. The whole question "what defines a Cylon" opened by the writers had me thinking... the final five aren't "final" they are the "first" five. They are neither Cylon, nor human and possibly are some related faction to the 13th tribe whom were left behind to fulfull and manipulate things behind the scenes. I do not like the idea of certain main characters being cylons and I believe that this will be the only way to mitigate that unplesant "revelation". I've been pushing hard on the crossroads' talk pages that the final five aren't necessarily cylons and that Tigh certainly is not. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 22:23, 24 March 2007 (CDT)
:I agree with the idea that they are NOT Cylons but for different reasons. The first problem is the aging/immortality issue since it has been established that the current batch of cylons will live forever (as long as they are not boxed and are in range of a Ressurection Ship or the Cylon Homeworld). My thought is that the main characters who think they are cylons are NOT but rather descendants of the one or more copies of one or more of the models of the Final Five (thus fufulling RDM's promise of "bluring the line between Human and Cylon"). But we will soon see... [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 22:30, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Agreed, I actually was trying to clarify that. I think the final five are actually priests, five priests who continue the tradition of prophecies. Remember, Tyrol's father was a priest AND his mom was an Oracle. HE found the Eye. And finally, and this bugs me, people seem to ignore or overlook the fact that the Cylon Biers had stepped into the Eye's chamber when it was meant for a HUMAN to. SHE saw the final five and had explained that she had made a mistake and apologized. Now... I assume those five priests are the "final five" so-called cylons. But why am I the only person who gets that the other seven models do not KNOW who or WHAT the final five truly are? --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 23:02, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

I'd actually go with the idea that they are not the FINAL Five, but the FIRST Five. I think the Enemy Seven are the Children of the Cylon group. They don't know about the first 5 also, they don't know who programmed them.--[[User:James968|James968]] 04:51, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

== D'Anna's Apology ==

Right now this article lists Saul Tigh as being the leading suspect of who D'Anna saw, but I'm not sure if this information should really be included; it's complete speculation on one hand, and on the other... I'm not sure that it really holds merit. Certainly Tigh has endured the most of all the final five at the hands of the Cylon, but D'Anna never really had much involvement with him; on the other hand, she attacked and nearly killed Anders in Downloaded. He would seem to me a more likely suspect of who she saw and felt compelled to apologize to. At the very least, my speculation is no more off bat then the theory that it's Tigh, and that really calls for some change here. [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 03:59, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

:I think she's talking to Anders, as they have had a [[Downloaded|face-to-face conflict with eachother before]]. She was pretty abusive to him in that episode, and if she saw that he wasn't Human, but a member of the [[Final Five]], she would probably be pretty apologetic....[[User:Zach dax|Zach dax]] 23:51, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
::So much to apologize for. Tigh's eye (though that seemed a Cavil project). Putting Tyrol's wife on a death list. Beating up Anders. Outside, her centurions are shooting at Anders and Tyrol, and shot and seriously injured Anders' wife. Only Foster brings nothing to mind. However, I don't think it was any of them, and while we can list reasons like the ones I cite, the line "I had no idea" suggests it is somebody bigger. Because she certainly would have had an idea that the F5 were infiltrating the fleet, where else would they be, after all? But no, we can't list who the apology is to quite yet, and since she started a war that killed everybody's families and friends, it's hard to find somebody she could not apologize to.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:18, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

:::I think it was pretty obviously Anders, per Zach's comment and my own at [[Talk:Rapture#Deanna Recognition]]. One of the Five's was responsible for Tigh's eye, anyway. Can we word this more definitively now? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

::::That's one interpretation... Frankly, once the Final Cylon is revealed, we'd probably have a better idea on who she apologized to. However, I do agree with both Peter and Zach based on the available evidence. She did assault and try to kill Anders on Caprica, and would've succeeded had D'Anna not had her head smashed in with a rock. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 06:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

== D'Anna's sketches ==
The two on the right are, in retrospect, clearly Tigh and Anders. I'm not sure about the other ones. The one on the far left is vague enough to be anyone with long hair, or anyone with short hair wearing a hood, and the one in the middle is vague enough to be any woman with a slim face, narrow jawline and straight, shoulder length or longer hair. The one to the near left depicts someone with dark hair and a widow's peak, however no major character other than [[Number Five]] meets those criteria, however they are rough sketches based on blurry memories, so it could be a distorted portrait of Tyrol, Baltar or Roslin. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:12, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:I dunno, but SkyOne HD already aired this episode, so if anyone has a higher resolution cap of the sketches then it would greatly help the article I think, if at least visually. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:58, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

== Ironies and references ==

The revelation of the identities Fantastic Four (as I like to call them) brought up some interesting ironies. I thought I'd list them here for entertainment purposes, along with other early references to their Cylonness:
* On several occasions throughout the show, [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] plays with the idea of committing suicide. Not only is this considered a mortal sin by the Significant Seven, it also won't solve his problems, as he'll just be resurrected.
* In "[[33]]", Tigh gives [[William Adama|Adama]] his 10 minutes rest, because Adama is more tired. Interestingly, [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] also suffered less from the sleep-depriving conditions than anyone else.
* In "[[Litmus]]", [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] is interrogated for conspiracy with a Cylon.
* In the episodes "[[Scattered]]" through "[[The Farm]]", a Cylon has been in command of the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]].
* In "[[Fragged]]", Tyrol leads an attack on five Cylon [[Centurion]]s
* [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] has been [[Caprica Resistance|fighting the Significant Seven]] ever since the [[Fall of the Colonies]].
** When Anders' group ambushes [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] and [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], Anders assumes they are Cylons, while he's a Cylon himself.
* In "[[Resistance]]", Tigh accuses Tyrol of being a Cylon. Not only is Tigh right, he is also a Cylon himself.
* After his release, Tyrol talks about how he saw [[Sharon Valerii]] slowly realizing her Cylon identity, not knowing the same will happen to him (although his realization is much faster).
* In "[[Home, Part II]]", Adama orders Tyrol to guard fellow Cylon [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]], [[Tom Zarek|Zarek]] and Helo.
* In "[[Final Cut]]", [[Number Three|D'Anna Biers]] tries to implicate Tigh in the [[Gideon]] incident, not knowing he's a Cylon just like her.
* In "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", Tyrol builds a stealth craft that successfully avoids Cylon DRADIS.
* In "[[The Captain's Hand]]", [[Tory Foster|Tory]] is very closely involved in the plot to hide [[Hera]], who is actively searched for by the Seven and connected to the [[final five]] on some occasions.
* In "[[Downloaded]]", a Three threatens to kill Anders, not knowing he's a Cylon as well.
* In "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]", Tyrol is the first to identify [[Cavil]] as a Cylon.
* Tigh, Tyrol and Anders were the three leading figures of the [[New Caprica Resistance]].
** They were also members of [[The Circle]] that [[Collaborators|executed]] collaborators after the Second Exodus.
** Tory also helped the resistance by organizing evacuation exercises disguised as fire drills.
* In "[[Hero]]", Tigh is the one to realize Bulldog was manipulated by the Cylons to kill Adama.
* In "[[Rapture]]", when Three finds the Temple in order to see the final five, two of them (Tyrol and Anders) are just outside (credit to someone else on this Wiki).
* In "[[A Day in the Life]]", Tyrol suffers far less from the explosive decompression than [[Cally Tyrol|Cally]] does.
* In "[[Dirty Hands]]", Tory only suffers a minor injury when a [[Raptor]] crashes into ''[[Colonial One]]'' close to her.
* In the same episode, Tyrol points out to [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]] that choice sets them apart from the Cylons.
* The irony of ironies occurs in "[[Crossroads, Part II]]": a Cylon (Tigh) orders three fellow Cylons (Anders, Tory and Tyrol) to help defend the ship from attacking Cylons.
:Great list. I noted the temple because this is around the first point that these are deliberate ironies. RDM has admitted he didn't pick who would be the final 5 until during this season, so the ironies prior to the exodus are probably unintentional. (Also, just like rain on your wedding day, not all these are ironies :-) For example, Tyrol's decompression is much more clearly a plain-old clue, it was in his clue list. We don't know if the F5 were picked during [[Collaborators]] but that is also an interesting irony if they were.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:00, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
::I know they're not all ironies (that's why this section is titled "Ironies ''and references''"), and they can't all have been intentional. I just suddenly realized the one in "Resistance" (still one of my favorites in this list), and built the rest of the list around it. It's actually funny to see how many of these ironies/references can be found in the first two seasons. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 15:58, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

=="What about Ellen?"==
I think the line can be interpreted in ways other than how it was interpreted in this page. I for one thought he was more likely questioning whether she (along with all the other things he mentioned) were real. After all, he had just learned he was a Cylon, which meant something about his life was different.

This is what I thought anywyas, and it makes a little more sense to me. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 04:09, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

:Yeah, we know that Ellen Tigh wasn't a false memory, but Saul Tigh has no way of knowing which parts of his life are false memories or some programmed delusion. I still think it's more likely that he was revisiting his regrets about her death or considering the possibility that Ellen may be a Cylon. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:43, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
::Was mostly just documenting the fact that they don't know yet about their being special Cylons, as revealed in the Podcast. I have edited the text to be more a reporting of facts than a speculation of his motives.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 16:22, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Perfect! Thanks :) .--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:59, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

::I believe [[Ellen Tigh]] is a [[Cylon]]. While there is evidence she has a sister in [[Valley of Darkness]], she fits being a Cylon and she is a female that can fit the profile. [[Number Three]] may have apoligized for her being killed by Tigh.--[[User:CoreyDanian|CoreyDanian]] 20.19, 2 July 2007

== Proper Noun or not? ==

I think we need some kind of standard here. Either it's "Final Five" or "Final five", but not both. Same with "Significant Seven". Personally I could go either way, but I think most people tend to capitalize the numbers. That would be easier then. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:I'd go with Final Five. Shane can probably bot-edit once we've reached consensus on the capitalization. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 16:02, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::I agree, since they are sometimes referred only as "The Five" I think the second should be capitalized as well. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 21:17, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Yup, Final Five. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:23, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::::For consistency's sake, OK. Same for "Significant Seven" (although that is a production term and not an aired canonical one). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:47, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

== Possible Repercussions Against the Seven ==

Once the fourth seasons of Galactica begins, I, for one, would be thrilled to see what sort of consequences would befall the Cavil models for their actions against Saul; particularly their torturing him mentally and physically.

This, of course, would be provided that whatever repressed memories/programming within them, that is Saul and the other three of five remaining, does not altogether supress the personalities we are familiar with.

And what of Sam regarding the Conoy models' mental torture of Starbuck on New Caprica? Will retribution or amnesty befall Conoy if such a plot or subplot were contemplated by the producers?

I could only imagine how Cally and Kara would react to discovering their spouses are two of the Final Five. I even wonder moreso how Bill (Admiral Adama) will react toward Saul's true race.

Granted, those last two paragraphs had little to do with the possible retribution or amnesty toward the known seven at the hands of Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders; but they are still possibilities worth contemplating.
- {{unsigned|Murrdawg 316}}
:Yeah, the Fantastic Four are in an awkward position. My personal prediction is that the Colonials will meet a Final Five fleet, sending a Tigh copy as a liaison (or a Tyrol/Anders/Tori copy for that matter). That Final Five fleet could appear pretty early: it could be the fleet that jumped into the Ionian System at the end of "[[Crossroads, Part II]]", or they could jump in and defend the Colonials. And we almost forgot to mention Starbuck: she'll have some explaining to do as well. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 07:59, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

== Further Flipping of the original Battlestar Galactica's Script ==

Okay, seeing as such changes in the redefined and more immensely popular version of Battlestar Galactica have occurred as (1) gender reversals of the original Boomer, Starbuck, Cain, and -- if I am not mistaken -- Number Six, (2) making Cain superior in rank to the elder Adama, and (3) making the Cylons self-aware AND humanoid right out of the gate. Wouldn't it also be logical to give Earth the possible advantage of not only being as advanced if not moreso than the Twelve Colonies of Kobol AND also made both peaceful and military resolutions to problems the Colonials had to learn the hard way with the Cylons where the creation of self-aware, replicated humanoids or androids of their own are concerned?

It would be fascinating to hope that Earth, like and yet unlike the Colonies, not only created artificial life, but acknowledged their sentience and right to exist as an equal and independent race either beside or separate from humans; thus being added contributors to the resolution of the Cylon/Colonial conflict as the series meets its eventual end.

Please let me know what you think.

--[[User:Murrdawg 316|Murrdawg 316]] 05:12, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

:Based on the episode events, there is some truth in your fiction. Ron uses the Original Series as a template, but has obviously grown away from most of the storylines that appeared there (and seriously "warps" what he does use). There is one premise that does permeate throughout the Re-imagined Series, whether the Cylons or humanity itself harass the Fleet: "We have seen the enemy, and they are us." Some [[Sacred Scrolls|elements of return and origin]] (a serious plotline of the show) have bigger complications, not only with [[Hera Agathon]] or the Five, but the [[The Destiny|mysterious destiny and return of Kara Thrace]] and the prophecies and involvement of the [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Lords of Kobol]]. -- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:00, 29 April 2007 (CDT) ([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contrib Skillz]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|Edit Skillz]])

:There are clues that Earth did not have a peaceful creation of its own AIs. The writings of Pythia who "wrote of the exile and rebirth of the human race" 3,600 years BCH are ambiguous, because they are written in the past tense (implying such an exodus in her past) but also treated as prophecies by the colonials for their future. There is not supposed to be any time travel in this show, but there is definitely a theme of repeated cycles of history. However, RDM refuses to answer questions about what Earth is like, though he has worked it out in his internal notes. All we actually have confirmed about Earth (as opposed to learn from colonial mythology) is that whoever took Starbuck brought her there, that its night sky was displayed in the [[Tomb of Athena]] and that it's real and not too far from the [[Ionian nebula]] on a Galactic scale.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:44, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

Guys i don't know about you but i would love to see a conflict resolution similar to Issac Asimovs "Foundation". In the first 2
books, 2 major conficts resolve peacefully yet surprisingly amazing!! [[User:Bbm4n|Bbm4n]] 15:46, 5 February 2008 (CST)

== S3 cliffhanger tag ==

Is the presence of this tag still justified (now that the Four Revealed section has been added)? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 07:13, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
:It would be cool to just edit it to "events are under scrutiny...". We no longer need to warn people about edit conflicts and such though. But we could also strike it entirely. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:18, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
::From my point of view, the tag used to mean the article was no longer correct and/or needed to be cleaned up in light of the [[Crossroads, Part II]] events. That issue has now been resolved. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 08:18, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
:::The tag (which I created) was primarily to stem the crisis of edit-conflicts, fanwanking, and the like, especially given how the revelations made everything we know almost wrong. It can be removed if the article is now up to date. However, we need to ensure that the [[Humanoid Cylon]] article is noted and how the Final Five contrast and compare, specifically noting how "fundamentally different" they are. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:51, 28 June 2007 (CDT)

== Mevenstar's edit ==

Moved from the article. Please discuss here:

: #1 The Jealous God, #2 Cylon God and #3 One Whose Name cannot be spoken all hint toward a RDM incarnation of Iblis, but as no metaphysical being has been shown yet to exist, nor any AI before the cylons introduced, it seems feasible each of these three descriptions may depict more than one Kobol Lord or the cylon god. There are judeo christian montehists that do not believe in speaking the name of their god Jahovah. The Jealous God can be a lucifer or hades like charcter that has set himself up as the Cylon God, The One whose name cannot be spoken can be a kobol lord that has assumed a Johavah like role in exile with the the thirteenth tribe, and the remaining Kobol Lords are in some way connected to the colonials as pantheon similar in form to Mt. Olympus. They may be real or imagined, metaphysical or AI...and all three groups, colonials, 13th tribe and cylons could be in effect worshipping the same being with radically different interpretaions as to the nature of that being, just like muslims, christains and jews.--[[User:Mevenstar|Mevenstar]] 10:27, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

== Resurrection and multiple copies ==
There's no conclusive evidence supporting multiple copies or resurrection for the Final Five, but there's no conclusive evidence refuting the possibility either. Is there an interview in which it's implied that they cannot resurrect or don't have additional copies? If not, I would prefer a more neutral statement about the lack of evidence either way. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:23, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
:Sometime in season 3([[Escape Velocity]]) is rumored that after the Significant Seven become aware that the Final Five(well, at least four) reside in the fleet, they propose to cease attacking them as it is unknown if these Cylons have the ability to resurrect. If they were to die, no where in the Colonial Fleet or Cylon Fleet can the Five, if even, resurrect... Of course, no one knows for sure. -- [[User:Veepz|Veepz]] 22:04, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
::Thanks for pointing it out, I'll add a cite and tweak the note. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:58, 27 July 2007 (CDT)
:::Great! :-) -- [[User:Veepz|Veepz]] 01:43, 27 July 2007 (CDT)

:My theory would be that they have the ability to download, but probably there are no spare bodies waiting for them (if there were, it would be very hard for the seven to not know about them). Question is, what happens if there's a res ship in range but no matching spare body? Is the consciousness frozen, effectively boxed, until a body is provided, or is it lost? [[User:Lilianne Blaze|Lilianne Blaze]] 13:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:: We know there's a delay between death and download, as seen in "Downloaded" or the New Caprica arc. Therefore one can assume that there is some sort of storage buffer for memories to reside in (temporary memory, a la RAM) until the consciousness can be saved to a permanent medium (the body/husk). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:::The 7 Cylons know almost nothing about the F5, in fact they have programming which limits how much they can even think about them. All they know is they don't have any other models in their resurrection facilities (now destroyed) so they would indeed wonder about whether they can resurrect. However, *that actually tells us only about the programmed ignorance of the S7, it does not reveal anything about the F5*. I've been taking to calling them the "original five" as that is a much more correct name, and helps avoid the confusion that comes from taking assumptions from the S7 and applying it to the original five. As to whether there are other copies, well we see animated copies in white robes in the visions. And somebody is out there doing stuff, so there are suggestions of other copies out there, but no proof as yet.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 19:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:::True. Therefore, based on real-world analogies, it would be logical to assume they can be stored in that buffer indefinitely as long as there is no major power failure aboard the res ship. Maybe they can even be backed up in a process similar to boxing (well, we now know un-boxing is possible, so technically boxing is a kind of backup). On the other hand I think I remember Star Trek teleporter buffers being able to store living beings only for a limited amount of time (which sounds pretty much bull^H^H^H^Hunrealistic if you ask me). So I guess we're stuck with waiting for official version. [[User:Lilianne Blaze|Lilianne Blaze]] 06:36, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

== Possible Cylon ploy ==

The whole notion of the final five being based on the two sketches may have more weight than the musical programming but a still a far cry from being reliable. I belive the "fantasitc four" or the "quartet" (hey it's music that drives them) were manipulated by some Cylon psychic or psychological tampering. I mean how is it that now the Cylons are able to follow Galactica? And how then does the non-ressurrectable final 5 come perilously close to being killed (Tyrol about 5 times), Anders (who knows how many times), Tigh (Abused and tortured by the other cylons)...

No I think the Cylons when they captured these at some point had implanted some tracking beacons on them. When Tigh thought the music was coming from the ship he was close, he probably thought there was a tracking device.

I admit I can't find a good explanation for the sketches. But 2 out of 4 of them are recognizeable. And because she was a CYLON, she was not meant to see the true faces of the final 5, maybe what she saw was a distortion and false information.

--[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 20:41, 31 January 2008 (CST)
\
: Sorry, what source do you have for them being 'non-ressurectable?" Or that the other seven know anything about them, other than the boxed #3? We have not seen that in the show, and what we have seen -- placing them in the temple of five and Kobol opera house -- marks them as thousands of years old, so if there is a ploy it is almost surely the other way around.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 18:02, 9 February 2008 (CST)

::Yeah, see the previous section, their ability to resurrect is uncertain. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:37, 14 February 2008 (CST)

== Centurions ==
We know the Centurions have shot at members of the Final Five (or at least shot in their general direction), but have they ever actually ''hit'' one of the Final Five? In other words, is it possible that they can detect the Final Five, and are intentionally missing them? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 08:00, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
*Until the start of series 3 the ''writers'' hadn't even decided who the FF were, so anything before then is irrelevant. I don't think the FF were ever shot in S3, but that's probably more of a [[w:Character shield|Character Shield]] than anything else. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 11:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Final Five/Archive 1

2008-06-12T13:37:44Z

Lilianne Blaze:

== Promo Image ==

I took the image into photoshop (I do minor image tweaking at my job), did everything I could to enhance it, just for fun. And I'd like to make a grandiose speculation that the Five look, well, slightly mutilated...or mutated. Botched Cylon experiments, torutred and insane minds!!! I don't know, That one "fellow's" hand reaching to Three looks awefully stumpy...of course it could always be some foreshortening.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:57, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Yup, totally convinced they are mutilated and grotesque, their faces, albiet shrouded are just a little odd and produce strange shadow tones.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 11:17, 3 January 2007 (CST)

:It is also possible that the show is intentionally masquerading their faces to allow the show to cast anyone in these roles at a later time, rather than fixing the faces of the characters right away. In any case, any interpretations of these promo shots are too speculative to make a valid assessment. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:38, 3 January 2007 (CST)

We should get rid of the main picture - we don't know for sure that they are in fact the Final Five, they may be simply a hallucation on the part of D'eanna when she resurrects/is boxed.
Or perhaps the five temple priests who are not Cylons. Point is, we don't know --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 06:26, 10 January 2007 (CST)
:Writer's often portray canon information through a character, in this case D'Anna. That is the same vision she always has when she dies, we've already seen a part of the scene on "Hero", and it's what she's been seeing again and again. Her sketches and such are merely her representations of what she saw, this picture is what she actually saw. Anyways, even if you choose to not believe D'Anna, and even if you doubt the only logical explanation, I think David Eick confirmed that it's them she sees on a EW article. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:53, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== ID ==

Looking at the high resolution picture, I can identify most of the actors in these robes. Whether they actually are the Final Five Cylons or whether this is just a dream sequence and they grabbed whoever was convenient is not clear. From the left to the right:

# Aaron Douglas, better known as Chief Tyrol. The stature and facial features are a perfect match.
# Tahmoh Penikett, better known as Helo. This isn't as certain, but the lower face and stature both match.
# Unidentified female
# Unidentified female
# The big, bald Asian pilot who's always in the rec room.

[[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 21:32, 9 January 2007 (CST)

No two cylons can have a child which makes Tahmoh Penikett wrong. Don't know about the others, though the "Chief" guy is certainly too short --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 06:21, 10 January 2007 (CST)

:Major kudos if you are correct, cause I cartainly can't see it myself :P -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 06:27, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::They're just stand-ins, they don't release promo pics at random, and they wouldn't reveal anyone in such a way when having a chance to do it on screen. But as said before, those faces are vague enough to be almost anyone. They might have similarities, but a lot of people in the world can have similar features without looking the same. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:32, 10 January 2007 (CST)

::The thing of it is, is; we're all going to see what we want in them untill we actually see them. I'm pretty sure I'm not right (above comment) and fairly sure when they did these Promo pics and ambiguous #3 "in the hinterlands of Cylon death land" dreams, that they wouldn't have cast definite actors...it's a pretty significant choice to make of who should play the roles...so, stick some people in robes and shrouds to stand in and any old person will do for the snippets, clips, dream scenes and teaser tastys. we won't know 'till we know--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:42, 12 January 2007 (CST)

:Personally I think the show would be smart to not put all of their eggs in one basket on this whole final five thing. At least one of the five should be someone we've never seen, one should be someone who is alive and in the fleet and at least one should be someone who was in the fleet that has been dead for a while. Making all of the five sleepers who are in the fleet or making them all dead characters or all new characters wouldn't be very cool. Making it a balance between the three would be nice. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 19 January 2007.

I hate to repeat what's been stated, but I think Philwelch is looking way too hard because I see no one - and I mean ''no one'' familar in that image. Not even a vague similarity. I'm certain they're just stand-ins, but I find it odd that they'd release an image that shows so much, but also expect us not to see a match when the five are revealed. You'd figure they'd put more effort in hiding the faces, just to cover the bases. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:43, 22 January 2007 (CST)

== Reason for Locking ==

I don't want the server to flood or 4k people trying to edit this page. Take your time and finsh everything else first. Unprotect this at Midnight. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:21, 21 January 2007 (CST)

== Interpretation question ==

After thinking about this, there are only two individuals that believe that what D'anna/Three has seen is actually images of the final five Cylons: herself, and Baltar. The Colonials scripture know that the Temple of Five was human-built, long before the Cylons existed, and was related to five priests who may have worshiped someone different from the Lords of Kobol. There's plenty of inference (with Kara Thrace, Leoben, [[Dodona Selloi]], and the Threes) that there is a connection between the Lords of Kobol and the Cylon God. My problem is that, while the notion that the final five Cylons has been established, there isn't information ''between'' the characters that verifies that what Three has seen are actual Cylon or human figures.

For that reason, I am going to rewrite this article with a level of neutrality that does not support only Three's belief since there is Colonial connections that exist. The final five represent five human priestly people (blessed, cursed or otherwise cited) or five Cylons (boxed, or related somehow to the origin of the new Cylon, which, after "Rapture," is not clear-cut. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:31, 27 January 2007 (CST)
:Well....RDM called them "The Final Five" in his podcast...--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 10:03, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::The podcast doesn't elaborate on their nature, and Ron has twisted the truth before to keep the storyline a mystery until aired. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:06, 27 January 2007 (CST)

==Three wasn't the Only One==
I think we should also mention that Number Three wasn't the only Cylon to believe they were the Final Five. The Cavils believed it well enough to try to shoot her and even box her. So I think we should at least mention that they too believed Three was seeing the Final Five, enough to essentially eliminate 1/3 of their known female population. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:00, 27 January 2007 (CST)

The light that shines down as the Nova goes is real, and D'anna starts bleeding and dies for no other apparent reason. If it's an illusion in her mind, these things don't match.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 21:22, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:It didn't seem like an illusion, but rather a simple isolate hologram, which wouldn't be surprising since that's the kind of tech these things ususally have in them. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:35, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::The podcast supports the assumption that Three saw the actual Final Five, although I don't think it's explicitly stated. As for the device in the temple, there's quite a few possible explanations and I doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer about which one is correct. The device could've triggered both Three's death and the visions directly, the device could've triggered Three's death, resulting in a vision just like her previous deaths did or the device could've triggered the visions, resulting in Three's death due to some hypothetical built-in failsafe in Three. Each of those three possibilities also has a number of explanations (for example, if the device caused the visions, it may have been a technological substitute for [[chamalla]], it may have been designed to unlock repressed memories or in may have been programmed with the images of the Final Five at any time in the past 4000 years). -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:17, 2 February 2007 (CST)
::: It seems that [[projection]] would be a likely technology behind a vision seen only by here. Why a 4,000 year old temple would be able to do that is nor more a mystery than why it would be able to insert a vision any other way. Further reflection shows this image to possibly be different from the image in the Temple of Athena, which was more holodeck like, and seen by all.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:47, 2 February 2007 (CST)

==Warning - possibly big spoiler below==
I was watching Final Five photo, when I noticed face similarity to one of main characters face. I made some photo mainpulating, and results is below.

[http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9007/finalfivespoilerzq0.png] <-- POSSIBLE HEAVY SPOILER

It gives me around 60-70% sure, that this char is one of Final Five. Yet there are two other things - first - it's possible, that director didn't thought of that, and put this actor there to "fill the gap".

Second - as I've searched through characteristic of this one, I haven't even found slight connections to Cylon, and it would mess with storyline pretty badly.

What do you think about that? --[[User:XLII|XLII]] 16:41, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Again, don't take that picture too literally. It did not actually appear in the episode after all, and they chose not to show the faces in detail at the end. We don't know if it was actually shot that way at all and just cut, or if they are just stand-ins for a test shot or something. In any case, since we don't see the five in the episode, we can't draw any conclusions --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:58, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Also remember how much Leoben likes mixing truth and lies... "Adama is a Cylon." [[User:Wynler|Wynler]] 11:12, 29 January 2007 (CST)
::XLII your idea was a good one, but there's a flaw in your comparison. As you darken the image of the actor, that face overtakes the face of the Final Five. The jawlines match up, which makes it look like it's the same person, but watch the chin and the upper lip (and the 5 o'clock shadow) in pics 1&2 and 4&5. They're different. --[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 19:44, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Even if you forget for a moment that the people in the promo picture are just stand-ins Lee Adama is most defintly '''not''' a Cylon anyway we already worked that out. Because he is the son of someone else who is most definitly not a cylon and the Cylons are not copies of already existing people. See [[Humanoid Cylon speculation]] and [[Characters eliminated from suspicion]] --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
::::Not to mention that Lee has his fat makeup on there. Even if the images matched up, it wouldn't be a true likeness of Lee/Jamie Bamber.--[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 18:31, 2 February 2007 (CST)

What if the final five aren't cylons at all, but in fact are part of the priesthood. The whole question "what defines a Cylon" opened by the writers had me thinking... the final five aren't "final" they are the "first" five. They are neither Cylon, nor human and possibly are some related faction to the 13th tribe whom were left behind to fulfull and manipulate things behind the scenes. I do not like the idea of certain main characters being cylons and I believe that this will be the only way to mitigate that unplesant "revelation". I've been pushing hard on the crossroads' talk pages that the final five aren't necessarily cylons and that Tigh certainly is not. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 22:23, 24 March 2007 (CDT)
:I agree with the idea that they are NOT Cylons but for different reasons. The first problem is the aging/immortality issue since it has been established that the current batch of cylons will live forever (as long as they are not boxed and are in range of a Ressurection Ship or the Cylon Homeworld). My thought is that the main characters who think they are cylons are NOT but rather descendants of the one or more copies of one or more of the models of the Final Five (thus fufulling RDM's promise of "bluring the line between Human and Cylon"). But we will soon see... [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 22:30, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Agreed, I actually was trying to clarify that. I think the final five are actually priests, five priests who continue the tradition of prophecies. Remember, Tyrol's father was a priest AND his mom was an Oracle. HE found the Eye. And finally, and this bugs me, people seem to ignore or overlook the fact that the Cylon Biers had stepped into the Eye's chamber when it was meant for a HUMAN to. SHE saw the final five and had explained that she had made a mistake and apologized. Now... I assume those five priests are the "final five" so-called cylons. But why am I the only person who gets that the other seven models do not KNOW who or WHAT the final five truly are? --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 23:02, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

I'd actually go with the idea that they are not the FINAL Five, but the FIRST Five. I think the Enemy Seven are the Children of the Cylon group. They don't know about the first 5 also, they don't know who programmed them.--[[User:James968|James968]] 04:51, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

== D'Anna's Apology ==

Right now this article lists Saul Tigh as being the leading suspect of who D'Anna saw, but I'm not sure if this information should really be included; it's complete speculation on one hand, and on the other... I'm not sure that it really holds merit. Certainly Tigh has endured the most of all the final five at the hands of the Cylon, but D'Anna never really had much involvement with him; on the other hand, she attacked and nearly killed Anders in Downloaded. He would seem to me a more likely suspect of who she saw and felt compelled to apologize to. At the very least, my speculation is no more off bat then the theory that it's Tigh, and that really calls for some change here. [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 03:59, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

:I think she's talking to Anders, as they have had a [[Downloaded|face-to-face conflict with eachother before]]. She was pretty abusive to him in that episode, and if she saw that he wasn't Human, but a member of the [[Final Five]], she would probably be pretty apologetic....[[User:Zach dax|Zach dax]] 23:51, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
::So much to apologize for. Tigh's eye (though that seemed a Cavil project). Putting Tyrol's wife on a death list. Beating up Anders. Outside, her centurions are shooting at Anders and Tyrol, and shot and seriously injured Anders' wife. Only Foster brings nothing to mind. However, I don't think it was any of them, and while we can list reasons like the ones I cite, the line "I had no idea" suggests it is somebody bigger. Because she certainly would have had an idea that the F5 were infiltrating the fleet, where else would they be, after all? But no, we can't list who the apology is to quite yet, and since she started a war that killed everybody's families and friends, it's hard to find somebody she could not apologize to.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:18, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

:::I think it was pretty obviously Anders, per Zach's comment and my own at [[Talk:Rapture#Deanna Recognition]]. One of the Five's was responsible for Tigh's eye, anyway. Can we word this more definitively now? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

::::That's one interpretation... Frankly, once the Final Cylon is revealed, we'd probably have a better idea on who she apologized to. However, I do agree with both Peter and Zach based on the available evidence. She did assault and try to kill Anders on Caprica, and would've succeeded had D'Anna not had her head smashed in with a rock. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 06:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

== D'Anna's sketches ==
The two on the right are, in retrospect, clearly Tigh and Anders. I'm not sure about the other ones. The one on the far left is vague enough to be anyone with long hair, or anyone with short hair wearing a hood, and the one in the middle is vague enough to be any woman with a slim face, narrow jawline and straight, shoulder length or longer hair. The one to the near left depicts someone with dark hair and a widow's peak, however no major character other than [[Number Five]] meets those criteria, however they are rough sketches based on blurry memories, so it could be a distorted portrait of Tyrol, Baltar or Roslin. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:12, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:I dunno, but SkyOne HD already aired this episode, so if anyone has a higher resolution cap of the sketches then it would greatly help the article I think, if at least visually. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:58, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

== Ironies and references ==

The revelation of the identities Fantastic Four (as I like to call them) brought up some interesting ironies. I thought I'd list them here for entertainment purposes, along with other early references to their Cylonness:
* On several occasions throughout the show, [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] plays with the idea of committing suicide. Not only is this considered a mortal sin by the Significant Seven, it also won't solve his problems, as he'll just be resurrected.
* In "[[33]]", Tigh gives [[William Adama|Adama]] his 10 minutes rest, because Adama is more tired. Interestingly, [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] also suffered less from the sleep-depriving conditions than anyone else.
* In "[[Litmus]]", [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] is interrogated for conspiracy with a Cylon.
* In the episodes "[[Scattered]]" through "[[The Farm]]", a Cylon has been in command of the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]].
* In "[[Fragged]]", Tyrol leads an attack on five Cylon [[Centurion]]s
* [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] has been [[Caprica Resistance|fighting the Significant Seven]] ever since the [[Fall of the Colonies]].
** When Anders' group ambushes [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] and [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], Anders assumes they are Cylons, while he's a Cylon himself.
* In "[[Resistance]]", Tigh accuses Tyrol of being a Cylon. Not only is Tigh right, he is also a Cylon himself.
* After his release, Tyrol talks about how he saw [[Sharon Valerii]] slowly realizing her Cylon identity, not knowing the same will happen to him (although his realization is much faster).
* In "[[Home, Part II]]", Adama orders Tyrol to guard fellow Cylon [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]], [[Tom Zarek|Zarek]] and Helo.
* In "[[Final Cut]]", [[Number Three|D'Anna Biers]] tries to implicate Tigh in the [[Gideon]] incident, not knowing he's a Cylon just like her.
* In "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", Tyrol builds a stealth craft that successfully avoids Cylon DRADIS.
* In "[[The Captain's Hand]]", [[Tory Foster|Tory]] is very closely involved in the plot to hide [[Hera]], who is actively searched for by the Seven and connected to the [[final five]] on some occasions.
* In "[[Downloaded]]", a Three threatens to kill Anders, not knowing he's a Cylon as well.
* In "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]", Tyrol is the first to identify [[Cavil]] as a Cylon.
* Tigh, Tyrol and Anders were the three leading figures of the [[New Caprica Resistance]].
** They were also members of [[The Circle]] that [[Collaborators|executed]] collaborators after the Second Exodus.
** Tory also helped the resistance by organizing evacuation exercises disguised as fire drills.
* In "[[Hero]]", Tigh is the one to realize Bulldog was manipulated by the Cylons to kill Adama.
* In "[[Rapture]]", when Three finds the Temple in order to see the final five, two of them (Tyrol and Anders) are just outside (credit to someone else on this Wiki).
* In "[[A Day in the Life]]", Tyrol suffers far less from the explosive decompression than [[Cally Tyrol|Cally]] does.
* In "[[Dirty Hands]]", Tory only suffers a minor injury when a [[Raptor]] crashes into ''[[Colonial One]]'' close to her.
* In the same episode, Tyrol points out to [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]] that choice sets them apart from the Cylons.
* The irony of ironies occurs in "[[Crossroads, Part II]]": a Cylon (Tigh) orders three fellow Cylons (Anders, Tory and Tyrol) to help defend the ship from attacking Cylons.
:Great list. I noted the temple because this is around the first point that these are deliberate ironies. RDM has admitted he didn't pick who would be the final 5 until during this season, so the ironies prior to the exodus are probably unintentional. (Also, just like rain on your wedding day, not all these are ironies :-) For example, Tyrol's decompression is much more clearly a plain-old clue, it was in his clue list. We don't know if the F5 were picked during [[Collaborators]] but that is also an interesting irony if they were.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:00, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
::I know they're not all ironies (that's why this section is titled "Ironies ''and references''"), and they can't all have been intentional. I just suddenly realized the one in "Resistance" (still one of my favorites in this list), and built the rest of the list around it. It's actually funny to see how many of these ironies/references can be found in the first two seasons. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 15:58, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

=="What about Ellen?"==
I think the line can be interpreted in ways other than how it was interpreted in this page. I for one thought he was more likely questioning whether she (along with all the other things he mentioned) were real. After all, he had just learned he was a Cylon, which meant something about his life was different.

This is what I thought anywyas, and it makes a little more sense to me. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 04:09, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

:Yeah, we know that Ellen Tigh wasn't a false memory, but Saul Tigh has no way of knowing which parts of his life are false memories or some programmed delusion. I still think it's more likely that he was revisiting his regrets about her death or considering the possibility that Ellen may be a Cylon. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:43, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
::Was mostly just documenting the fact that they don't know yet about their being special Cylons, as revealed in the Podcast. I have edited the text to be more a reporting of facts than a speculation of his motives.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 16:22, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Perfect! Thanks :) .--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:59, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

::I believe [[Ellen Tigh]] is a [[Cylon]]. While there is evidence she has a sister in [[Valley of Darkness]], she fits being a Cylon and she is a female that can fit the profile. [[Number Three]] may have apoligized for her being killed by Tigh.--[[User:CoreyDanian|CoreyDanian]] 20.19, 2 July 2007

== Proper Noun or not? ==

I think we need some kind of standard here. Either it's "Final Five" or "Final five", but not both. Same with "Significant Seven". Personally I could go either way, but I think most people tend to capitalize the numbers. That would be easier then. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:I'd go with Final Five. Shane can probably bot-edit once we've reached consensus on the capitalization. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 16:02, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::I agree, since they are sometimes referred only as "The Five" I think the second should be capitalized as well. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 21:17, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Yup, Final Five. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:23, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::::For consistency's sake, OK. Same for "Significant Seven" (although that is a production term and not an aired canonical one). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:47, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

== Possible Repercussions Against the Seven ==

Once the fourth seasons of Galactica begins, I, for one, would be thrilled to see what sort of consequences would befall the Cavil models for their actions against Saul; particularly their torturing him mentally and physically.

This, of course, would be provided that whatever repressed memories/programming within them, that is Saul and the other three of five remaining, does not altogether supress the personalities we are familiar with.

And what of Sam regarding the Conoy models' mental torture of Starbuck on New Caprica? Will retribution or amnesty befall Conoy if such a plot or subplot were contemplated by the producers?

I could only imagine how Cally and Kara would react to discovering their spouses are two of the Final Five. I even wonder moreso how Bill (Admiral Adama) will react toward Saul's true race.

Granted, those last two paragraphs had little to do with the possible retribution or amnesty toward the known seven at the hands of Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders; but they are still possibilities worth contemplating.
- {{unsigned|Murrdawg 316}}
:Yeah, the Fantastic Four are in an awkward position. My personal prediction is that the Colonials will meet a Final Five fleet, sending a Tigh copy as a liaison (or a Tyrol/Anders/Tori copy for that matter). That Final Five fleet could appear pretty early: it could be the fleet that jumped into the Ionian System at the end of "[[Crossroads, Part II]]", or they could jump in and defend the Colonials. And we almost forgot to mention Starbuck: she'll have some explaining to do as well. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 07:59, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

== Further Flipping of the original Battlestar Galactica's Script ==

Okay, seeing as such changes in the redefined and more immensely popular version of Battlestar Galactica have occurred as (1) gender reversals of the original Boomer, Starbuck, Cain, and -- if I am not mistaken -- Number Six, (2) making Cain superior in rank to the elder Adama, and (3) making the Cylons self-aware AND humanoid right out of the gate. Wouldn't it also be logical to give Earth the possible advantage of not only being as advanced if not moreso than the Twelve Colonies of Kobol AND also made both peaceful and military resolutions to problems the Colonials had to learn the hard way with the Cylons where the creation of self-aware, replicated humanoids or androids of their own are concerned?

It would be fascinating to hope that Earth, like and yet unlike the Colonies, not only created artificial life, but acknowledged their sentience and right to exist as an equal and independent race either beside or separate from humans; thus being added contributors to the resolution of the Cylon/Colonial conflict as the series meets its eventual end.

Please let me know what you think.

--[[User:Murrdawg 316|Murrdawg 316]] 05:12, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

:Based on the episode events, there is some truth in your fiction. Ron uses the Original Series as a template, but has obviously grown away from most of the storylines that appeared there (and seriously "warps" what he does use). There is one premise that does permeate throughout the Re-imagined Series, whether the Cylons or humanity itself harass the Fleet: "We have seen the enemy, and they are us." Some [[Sacred Scrolls|elements of return and origin]] (a serious plotline of the show) have bigger complications, not only with [[Hera Agathon]] or the Five, but the [[The Destiny|mysterious destiny and return of Kara Thrace]] and the prophecies and involvement of the [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Lords of Kobol]]. -- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:00, 29 April 2007 (CDT) ([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contrib Skillz]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|Edit Skillz]])

:There are clues that Earth did not have a peaceful creation of its own AIs. The writings of Pythia who "wrote of the exile and rebirth of the human race" 3,600 years BCH are ambiguous, because they are written in the past tense (implying such an exodus in her past) but also treated as prophecies by the colonials for their future. There is not supposed to be any time travel in this show, but there is definitely a theme of repeated cycles of history. However, RDM refuses to answer questions about what Earth is like, though he has worked it out in his internal notes. All we actually have confirmed about Earth (as opposed to learn from colonial mythology) is that whoever took Starbuck brought her there, that its night sky was displayed in the [[Tomb of Athena]] and that it's real and not too far from the [[Ionian nebula]] on a Galactic scale.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:44, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

Guys i don't know about you but i would love to see a conflict resolution similar to Issac Asimovs "Foundation". In the first 2
books, 2 major conficts resolve peacefully yet surprisingly amazing!! [[User:Bbm4n|Bbm4n]] 15:46, 5 February 2008 (CST)

== S3 cliffhanger tag ==

Is the presence of this tag still justified (now that the Four Revealed section has been added)? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 07:13, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
:It would be cool to just edit it to "events are under scrutiny...". We no longer need to warn people about edit conflicts and such though. But we could also strike it entirely. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:18, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
::From my point of view, the tag used to mean the article was no longer correct and/or needed to be cleaned up in light of the [[Crossroads, Part II]] events. That issue has now been resolved. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 08:18, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
:::The tag (which I created) was primarily to stem the crisis of edit-conflicts, fanwanking, and the like, especially given how the revelations made everything we know almost wrong. It can be removed if the article is now up to date. However, we need to ensure that the [[Humanoid Cylon]] article is noted and how the Final Five contrast and compare, specifically noting how "fundamentally different" they are. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:51, 28 June 2007 (CDT)

== Mevenstar's edit ==

Moved from the article. Please discuss here:

: #1 The Jealous God, #2 Cylon God and #3 One Whose Name cannot be spoken all hint toward a RDM incarnation of Iblis, but as no metaphysical being has been shown yet to exist, nor any AI before the cylons introduced, it seems feasible each of these three descriptions may depict more than one Kobol Lord or the cylon god. There are judeo christian montehists that do not believe in speaking the name of their god Jahovah. The Jealous God can be a lucifer or hades like charcter that has set himself up as the Cylon God, The One whose name cannot be spoken can be a kobol lord that has assumed a Johavah like role in exile with the the thirteenth tribe, and the remaining Kobol Lords are in some way connected to the colonials as pantheon similar in form to Mt. Olympus. They may be real or imagined, metaphysical or AI...and all three groups, colonials, 13th tribe and cylons could be in effect worshipping the same being with radically different interpretaions as to the nature of that being, just like muslims, christains and jews.--[[User:Mevenstar|Mevenstar]] 10:27, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

== Resurrection and multiple copies ==
There's no conclusive evidence supporting multiple copies or resurrection for the Final Five, but there's no conclusive evidence refuting the possibility either. Is there an interview in which it's implied that they cannot resurrect or don't have additional copies? If not, I would prefer a more neutral statement about the lack of evidence either way. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:23, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
:Sometime in season 3([[Escape Velocity]]) is rumored that after the Significant Seven become aware that the Final Five(well, at least four) reside in the fleet, they propose to cease attacking them as it is unknown if these Cylons have the ability to resurrect. If they were to die, no where in the Colonial Fleet or Cylon Fleet can the Five, if even, resurrect... Of course, no one knows for sure. -- [[User:Veepz|Veepz]] 22:04, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
::Thanks for pointing it out, I'll add a cite and tweak the note. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:58, 27 July 2007 (CDT)
:::Great! :-) -- [[User:Veepz|Veepz]] 01:43, 27 July 2007 (CDT)

:My theory would be that they have the ability to download, but probably there are no spare bodies waiting for them (if there were, it would be very hard for the seven to not know about them). Question is, what happens if there's a res ship in range but no matching spare body? Is the consciousness frozen, effectively boxed, until a body is provided, or is it lost? [[User:Lilianne Blaze|Lilianne Blaze]] 13:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

== Possible Cylon ploy ==

----
The whole notion of the final five being based on the two sketches may have more weight than the musical programming but a still a far cry from being reliable. I belive the "fantasitc four" or the "quartet" (hey it's music that drives them) were manipulated by some Cylon psychic or psychological tampering. I mean how is it that now the Cylons are able to follow Galactica? And how then does the non-ressurrectable final 5 come perilously close to being killed (Tyrol about 5 times), Anders (who knows how many times), Tigh (Abused and tortured by the other cylons)...

No I think the Cylons when they captured these at some point had implanted some tracking beacons on them. When Tigh thought the music was coming from the ship he was close, he probably thought there was a tracking device.

I admit I can't find a good explanation for the sketches. But 2 out of 4 of them are recognizeable. And because she was a CYLON, she was not meant to see the true faces of the final 5, maybe what she saw was a distortion and false information.

--[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 20:41, 31 January 2008 (CST)
\
: Sorry, what source do you have for them being 'non-ressurectable?" Or that the other seven know anything about them, other than the boxed #3? We have not seen that in the show, and what we have seen -- placing them in the temple of five and Kobol opera house -- marks them as thousands of years old, so if there is a ploy it is almost surely the other way around.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 18:02, 9 February 2008 (CST)

::Yeah, see the previous section, their ability to resurrect is uncertain. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:37, 14 February 2008 (CST)

== Centurions ==
We know the Centurions have shot at members of the Final Five (or at least shot in their general direction), but have they ever actually ''hit'' one of the Final Five? In other words, is it possible that they can detect the Final Five, and are intentionally missing them? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 08:00, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
*Until the start of series 3 the ''writers'' hadn't even decided who the FF were, so anything before then is irrelevant. I don't think the FF were ever shot in S3, but that's probably more of a [[w:Character shield|Character Shield]] than anything else. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 11:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Talk:The Hub/Archive 1

2008-06-12T13:31:13Z

Lilianne Blaze:

{{newsection link}}

==Picture==

Where is it from? Are there more? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
:http://www.bsg.cz/4-09-hub-promofotky-3 -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 20:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
:: Thanks! I wonder why there are none for Sine Qua Non so far. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
::: Can anyone identify the gun Cavil is holding there? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 14:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
:::: Looks like a Walther PPK actually...the shape of it is a dead giveaway. -- [[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 09:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
::::: Maybe we should change the picture; unless I missed it (which seems unlikely, as I pay extra attention when Cavil's on screen), that scene didn't make the final cut of the episode. Something from the episode would be nice: the Hub, D'Anna, maybe even Elosha. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 02:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::: Read my mind. :) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 03:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

==The The==
The SciFi website omits the preceeding "The" from the episode title. Just bringing it up because I'm of a lower class with no ability to move pages and the such. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 11:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:"The Hub" was confirmed by Bradley Thompson, so I guess it's the correct title. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 15:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::NBC Universal's Media Village says "Hub", too, and they were right with the one-L "Traveled", too. "Hub" would be a painfully dull title, though. --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 16:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:::How did these two sites report "'''The''' Road Less Traveled"? With our without the "the"? In this case, it's obviously a Biblical quote and the "The" is clearly supposed to be there. And yeah, no one in their right mind would call an episode "Hub". --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 18:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::::''no one in their right mind would call an episode "Hub".'' – Eh... why not? –[[User:Sasoriza|Sasoriza]] 03:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
The episode is titled "The Hub"... we knew this months ago, thanks to [[BW:OC|our own source]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 03:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

==Teaser==
I'm sure anyone who's seen this knows by now, but just in case... In the teaser from "[[Sine Qua Non]]", D'anna says something like "You didn't know you were one of the final five", then ''(spoiler; highlight)'' {{spoiltext|Laura Roslin is shown.}}
I avoid spoiler blogs & the like, so I don't know: Intentional, or too obvious? –[[User:Sasoriza|Sasoriza]] 04:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
:That could easily be some clever editing. As we saw in Sine Qua Non, the conversation between Tigh and Adama was much longer before Tigh hit Adama, but the preview made it look like Tigh hits him right after Adama asks him what he was thinking re: C-Six. There are no guarantees that those two share a scene in the episode, but we'll just have to wait and see. --[[User:Kevin W.|Kevin W.]]•[[User talk:Kevin W.|So say we all]] 18:00, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
::Yeah. Drawing anything from this is completely ridiculous. Promos are often very misleading. Sometimes deliberately, but often there just isn't the time to convey any real meaning. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:06, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
:::IMO she's probably talking to Anders. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
::::I don't think Anders is there. I think she's messing with Roslin. We know they share scenes. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 04:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::Anders ain't anywhere, it seems... Odd. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 03:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

== Callum Keith Rennie is in the episode ==

He appears right at the beginning, when everyone is still kind of hanging around the hybrid.
: You're right. He doesn't have any lines though. Also, I'm pretty sure that's the same footage from the episode where they first jump away. I guess they couldn't get him for the episode, but he got credit for standing around he'd done already. I don't have the earlier episode on me right now. Can anyone confirm that is the same scene (and not a reshoot), and then we can update the details about CKR's absence. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 02:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
:: The scenes are from "Guess What's Coming For Dinner?"... there's nothing new there. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 03:29, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

== Rebuilding the hub? ==

> Why do the Cylons have only one Resurrection Hub and the implied inability to build another?
> Are the Cylons capable of building a new Hub, and if so, how long it would it take them?

My personal theory is - they can have more than one, and they can rebuild it, but it takes considerable time and resources, too much to have another one ready before the end of the war.

On the other hand - maybe it is possible to modify / reconfigure Res Ships to not require the Hub to coordinate them?

[[User:Lilianne Blaze|Lilianne Blaze]] 04:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

: Maybe the reason the cylons cannot rebuild it, is because it was built by whoever pogrammed/created the humanoid cylons in the first place, and they just weren't implanted with the knowledge required (similar to the knowledge of the final five). This may be evidenced by the fact that the resurrection facilities share a different design "philosophy" than the rest of the cylon fleet. [[User:Raziel Anarki|Raziel Anarki]] 15:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

:: I though about that too, but somehow it just doesn't fit. I think operating / maintaining the resurrection ships, especially growing the spare bodies, keeping them in perfect condition and ready when needed, would require enough knowledge to rebuild it. Also note the resurrection ships are clearly both an important target and a limited resource, but there are no implications that they can't be rebuild. Cylons are able to dumb down the Raiders and smart up the Centurions, so it's not like they only use what they have, they obviously know a lot, even if not all, of their own inner workings. As for the knowledge of the final five - I think they have it, it's just repressed somehow, waiting for a trigger. I suspect when confronted with hard evidence they'll know "just like that". Yes, I do realize these aren't exactly strong arguments. [[User:Lilianne Blaze|Lilianne Blaze]] 13:31, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

== Airlocked? ==

How come this page wasn't kept airlocked until the British release date, but Sine Qua Non was kept airlocked until the American and Canadian release date? I thought the entire point was to keep the page locked down until the episode had been fully released. Doesn't this portray double standards? [[User:Otterstat|Otterstat]] 10:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
: The episode was first released on Friday in America, not on Tuesday. (SciFi told SkyOne to not release the episode early... long story.) The point of locking down the pages is to prevent multiple people from bum-rushing the episode page after it had aired with edits, which degrades the performance of the wiki's server. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 13:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

:: Aye I know, and the British release date has been pushed back to Tuesday, so the roles are exactly reversed - what I'm saying is that last week the page was locked until the episode had aired in America, but this week it was unlocked straight after it was aired in America despite not having been aired in Britain yet. I thought another reason it was airlocked until the episode had aired in both areas was: "Locking articles give everyone a chance to watch the episode before a wiki visit could spoil that." I'm just a bit confused as to why it's been un-locked prior to the episode being aired in Britain, is all. Edit: To follow on from this, does this mean it is okay in the future for me to un-airlock a page if it has been aired in Britain first but not America and Canada? Because that's basically what happened here... [[User:Otterstat|Otterstat]] 14:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

:::Let me put it to you this way, just over half of our audience is American. The other half is oversees, with less than a quarter of that half being from the UK. We actually get a lot more traffic from Canada and Germany than we do the UK...

:::Further, we always airlocked the pages for the American airings, because that's when the Wiki is hardest hit... after US airings. Not UK airings. And, actually, "Sine Qua Non" proved that, because the traffic was more evenly distributed between the two air dates for that episode. You can see some of this statistical data for yourself [http://www.quantcast.com/battlestarwiki.org here]. Also, to answer your question, you don't have the permissions needed to lock our unlock pages; that's an ability only the chiefs have. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 22:24, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

== psych! ==

Can we get Three's joke at Laura's expense in the Notable Dialogue section? I can't remember it word by word myself. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 21:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)`

: There we go. What an amazing moment. If there's any problems with how I formatted it, feel free to tweak it. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 23:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

== Deleted scene or misplaced promo image? ==
I don't remember seeing Cavil holding a gun or wearing a hat, and we have had production number related misunderstandings before. Do we know that this image is from The Hub (episode 9, production number 411) and not [[Sometimes a Great Notion]] (episode 11, production number 413)? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:22, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
:It's not a mistake. This is not the first time that promo images from (later) deleted scenes were released. For example "[[Torn]]" had one or two with Doral, Boomer, Six and Hera in a church, and "[[A Measure of Salvation]]" had a scene with Thrace interrogating Leoben. They are on the DVDs and summarized [[List of Deleted Scenes - Season 3 (RDM)|here]]. We should chose a different picture, but the other promo pics for the episode aren't really any good. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:42, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
:I can grab something from the HD version... Any ideas? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
::Maybe a wide shot of the Cylon and human pilots assembling? -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:18, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

== Accessing other's memories ==

*In the Analysis section there is this:

:"....However, earlier in Season 1, Agathon somehow has access to Sharon "Boomer" Valerii's memories, but was never killed or resurrected in the Miniseries. There is no explanation for this, other than an inference that Cylons can share memories outside of the actual download and resurrection process; how Valerii was able to do this after leaving Caprica is unknown."
:----
:It is right we never heard in the series how the then Caprica Sharon, now Sharon "Athena" Agathon, got a hold of Sharon "Boomer" Valerii's memories but I think it is not much of a leap to say that as a undercover infiltration agent Valerii was killed a number of times at regular intevals by the Cylons off screen probably during her shore leaves. Tyrol and Valerii had a torrid relation ship for a long while before the attack we know. Valerii had been stationed on Galactica for two years prior to the attack, that is plenty of time to kill her repeatedly. We have seen how the Cylons were blasé about death and resurrection. Remember how the Three in the bombed parking garage casually offered to Caprica Six to kill her because C-6 had a broken leg? If they could do that then no big deal; just kill Boomer, her memories download in to the communal repository (as well as a new body) and send her off again thinking she was human. Meanwhile have the future Athena absorb somehow Boomer's memories. Now the question is how does a living Cylon absorb the downloaded memories. In fact, I think I will put that up as a new question. Does Athena-or the Eight in ''The Hub''-have to die first? Of course we will have to wait to see it in the series for these questions can be answered in canon. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 06:04, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:: Well, this does not explain how Agathon has Valerii's memories of abandoning Karl Agathon on Caprica. There's really no wiggle room there for her to "die", particularly as she lifts off with a bunch of survivors, including Boxey. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 06:11, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:::It depends on the wording and context. Did she say that as a cover story? It could be, and I sure it is, as simple as other Cylon agents could had seen Helo and their agent Boomer part after he gave up his seat to Baltar and they told Athena by simple conversation about Boomer leaving Helo behind. We have seen the other Cylons observe Helo and they did report to each other verbally so I think it can be easy said that The Cylons simply told Athena just like a normal human would tell another human. I have to see either the scene or the transcript of the scene to be sure. What episode was that scene in? [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 06:33, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:::: Athena didn't verbally claim to have Boomer's memories of leaving Helo behind, she had a flashback to it. Boomer could conceivably have been killed sometime before returning with the refinery ship to the fleet, followed by a Raider, but we don't know if that's necessary. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 23:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::What episode was that? The flashback I mean. And what episode was the refinery ship she was coming back from in (I remember a lot but have forgotten a lot too). I'll check. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 01:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::: The former, Flesh and Bone. The latter, the Miniseries. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 04:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Thanks! I will check it out. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 05:11, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
It has often been implied that the Cylons have some easy (and invisible) way of sharing information with other members of their model. See [[Precipice#Analysis]] where Athena comments "I'm not wired in. It doesn't work like that". When Boomer was a sleeper agent she could have been "wired in" without knowing it. Alternatively, another Cylon infiltrator in the fleet could somehow have accessed her memories and transmitted them at opportune moments. Alternatively, the part of Boomer who knew she was a Cylon could have transmitted information during the moments she was "at the helm". I don't think it has ever been implied that death and resurrection is a necessary precondition for the sharing of memories. [[User:Haukurth|Haukurth]] 21:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:I think there just was in ''The Hub'' itself that death is necessary when the Eight told Helo she accessed Athena's memories after her last download. I believe that '''''is''''' what the then called Caprica Sharon (Athena) meant when she told Roslin that "....it doesn't work like that." The way it work is that a Cylon has to die download into the communal data bank and then the curious Cylon could absorb the resurrecting Cylons memories. I myself believe they have to stick their hand into a data stream just like they do when monitoring the Hybrid (and when Young William Adama in ''Razor'' stuck his hand in that primitive Cylon resurrection tank like pool just before the First Cylon War ended).
:I read the Precipice Analysis and there is no evidence of a wireless transmittable way for Cylons to share memories at a distance, just a lot of speculation without evidence. If the Cylons could share info ESP like then Pegasus wouldn't had been so successful in their hit and run tactics against the Cylons with Gina on board; also Gina after she excaped could had told where Galactica was with out setting off a nuke.

:Galactica be wouldn't had been able to hide even for a while with the Doral, Leoben and D'anna Biers in the fleet or an extended period of time. Instead, in the original miniseries they relied on a transmitter that Gaeta found that wasn't familiar equipment.

:The Cylons in the movie theater on Caprica wouldn't had to rely on using Raiders to relay footage of Athena giving birth to know that she was alive. They would had known that by taping into D'anna's memory of her seeing her.

:Now the Hybrid has some ESP powers because it sensed the distress of Natalie being shot and as the Eight said panicked and '''JUMP!'''(ed). Also humanoid Cylons can vaguely sense when their own kind is near, like how Caprica Six told Roslin that the Final Five was in the fleet but can't tell she was making love to one (Tigh). Similarly (almost) Athena couldn't tell Anders and Tyrol were two of the Finals when she spoke to the rookie Anders when they were about to go into battle in the nebula. However, I do concede that the Finals are different from the recently created Cylons, but then there is this case most tellingly: When the Fleet captured a Cavil after he came back from Caprica with the Caprican Resistance and Anders. He couldn't tell that they already had another One in custody (the one that consoled the troubled Tyrol). He tried to maintain his innocence until they opened a door and there he sat, the jig was up. All this tells me they can't anymore read each other's minds-even their own model's minds-anymore than we can. "It doesn't work like that." [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 01:24, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
::''I think there just was in The Hub itself that death is necessary when the Eight told Helo she accessed Athena's memories after her last download.'' Death and resurrection may be a ''sufficient'' condition without being a ''necessary'' one. [[User:Haukurth|Haukurth]] 08:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
::None of this evidence refutes the possibility of voluntary memory sharing through datastream terminals or physical contact. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Could it be possible for two live Cylons to stick their hands in a data stream and absorb each other's memories? Sure, but my point and I think the point of the analysis was whether they had ESP like abilities. They didn't and circumstances say they don't. As for them being touch telepaths we have seen no evidence specifically to prevent that possibility but we also have seen no evidence to support it either. At least we have the evidence of them controlling the Hybrid with the data stream and my example of young William Adama putting his hand in a Cylon tank to support the possibility of them sharing memories like that. We have seen them talking among themselves like normal people sharing ideas that way. No Cylon Mind Meld. If they could share memories with a mere touch we would had seen it by now. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 02:51, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
::::We sort of have. Consider the behavior of the various distinct Cavil models at the beginning of season 3, in which Ellen uses sex with one Cavil to bribe a different one to release Saul. Also, consider the way individuals in each model seem empowered to act as "speaker" for the entire line without, as far as we've seen, conducting some kind of physical poll. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:40, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::Not necessarily, we long known that the models act in unison, that they all think alike (except for the ones with extensive human contact) Individualism as we know it didn't exist with Cylons but that doesn't mean they use touch to convey memories and thoughts. And yes, they very like develop group consensus off screen polls within their model line and vote as a mass, but again not evidence of touch telepathy, just maybe great conference calling. :-) [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 05:05, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
What if the Eight who was shot in "Faith" who reached out to Athena for physical contact was attempting a memory transfer before she died? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 07:17, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:If they can transfer memories by touch, the Six in Faith could've transferred her memories to [[Natalie]]. Anyway, we know that Cylons can interface with [[datastream]] terminals by touch, we know that a living Cylon's knowledge and memories cannot be accessed against their will ([[Home, Part I]]), we know that the resurrection process produces some form of memory backup which other copies of the same model can access against their will ([[The Hub]]) and we know that the Eight who would become Sharon Agathon had some of Boomer's memories ([[Flesh and Bone]]). We don't know if Cylons can communicate with eachother through physical contact, and we don't know if memory sharing requires special equipment. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 08:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
::Don't forget young William Adama in ''[[Razor]]'' putting his hand in that tank and getting that flood of images, that is probably how the Eight accessed Athena's memory. To answer Peter Fargo through you (this is an awkward way to communicate): While anything is possible I think that moment was an intent to convey a certain human touch. That Athena has become so estranged from her people she even couldn't show affection to a fellow dying Cylon. Adama in ''[[Sine Qua Non]]'' alluded to how Athena regards her people when he accused her of hating her own kind so much that she will seize any opportunity to kill one. Anyway, if they could exchange information via touch they wouldn't waste time talking to each other, especially about critical matters but we have seen them talk, including about critical matters when they were alone on Baseships without humans to fool. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 11:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Talk:The Hub/Archive 1

2008-06-08T04:34:45Z

Lilianne Blaze: /* Rebuilding the hub? */ new section