Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Cylon Tactics/Archive 1

2006-02-21T07:38:55Z

Jzanjani: /* Heavy Edit */

I was opposed to the needless addition of this material to the main Cylon article by Jzanjani, and I am now happy that it has been given its own distinct page as opposed to cluttering up the main Cylon articles. Just wanted to meniton that. Stay the course. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:16, 30 December 2005 (EST)

== Light Bombers ==

There's a Heavy Raider link with a description including "light bomber." What's the justification behind this description? Raiders carry nukes, which are the closest thing to an anti-capital ship torpedo around, making them fighters with the (curiously under-utilized) capacity to act as torpedo bombers. I can't quite think of anything that could be analogous to more conventional bombers while spaceborne, so I have to assume torpedo bomber is the sense meant. Did I forget a Heavy Raider with nukes that appeared somewhere? If so, I might wonder why this makes it a light bomber while the Raider is not; it hasn't been seen to act regularly as such, and boarding parties and torpedoes are somewhat incompatible strategies, making simultaneous implementations in a single vehicle seem odd to me. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 23:45, 30 December 2005 (EST)
:This happened before your time Calc, but this entire section was rapidly written by that weirdo Jzanjani, who, in my personal opinion, never contributed anything of value to this wiki whatsover and had no firm grasp of anything BSG-related. Of course, this is my own opinion, to which I am entitled on a talk page, and for which the evidence speaks for itself. Regardless, I had many complaints when this section was added but consensus was against me. Quite frankly, most stuff he wrote here was either A) Totally redundant and covered elsewhere or B) Inaccurate. It was like he was trying to make his own light-fanfic by forcing BSG-stuff into the mold of some sort of hardcore military video-game set of rules, i.e. arbitrarily deciding that a Heavy Raider is a 'light bomber' when it is in fact a heavy fighter/troop transport. Just edit it and don't hesitate on this one.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:20, 31 December 2005 (EST)
:Oh, while I'm at it: Who is in favor of '''deleting this redundant page entirely?'''. We do not have a "Colonial Tactics" page, [u]nor do we need one[/u]. This page just restates stuff said elsewhere, and it's like someone was trying to write a fanfic battle-manual. It's just assumptions based loosley on the show; for example, if there was a SCENE in which Cain says to Adama "Cylon Tactics are as follows; soften up with humanoid-Cylon Trojan Horses; First attack wave is Raiders with Heavy Raiders giving support, followed by Basestars from the flanks" we could make a "Cylon Tactics" page out of it. But we've never had that. Someone just saw the ''capabilities'' of their ships (Raider=fighter, Basestar=heavy carrier, etc) and [u]made up[/u] a largely unnecessary page. I want to know the ''current'' consensus on this. We'll see what to do then. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:25, 31 December 2005 (EST)
::The current content is not good; however I think it can be improved (and that it would be worth doing so). I will be working on these articles extensively over the next few days, and I invite you all to join me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:11, 31 December 2005 (EST)

==Proposal for Deletion==
I must again say that I feel this page is redundant and should be deleted. I think there is no informaiton of value here. Farago thinks there is but it needs changes; however no changes have yet been made. If this article is not heavily revised in one week or so, I think it should be deleted. (I myself am not going to try to change anything, because honestly it if were left to me the entire thing would be deleted; thus it would be wiser if I just left this to others).--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:59, 10 January 2006 (EST)

:This page remains some of the best deductive speculation written on the wiki, given what little we know about the Cylons. The reasoning is good, speculations are grounded with example, and is logical. This is a must-keep; there IS no other page like it, and the recent breakup/reorganization of the Cylon pages makes this easier to digest. My opinion on it has not changed from when you last asked the question. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:50, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::I'll have to agree with Spencerian. This is detailed analysis and worthy of its own page. There should be no reason why something this significant shouldn't have its own page, and I certainly vote to keep it.--[[User:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]] 01:15, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::Weak keep. This article is not perfect, but is worth the effort it will take to improve it (along with the rest of the Cylon series, which I regret not having been able to pay more attention to before my winter term began). --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:27, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::Abstain, but I did want to comment that it'd be great if somebody could clean up the "cover" of the Cylons series. The Cylons are a pretty important part of the series, and having the "article needs cleanup" right on the front page doesn't seem to reflect all the effort that has gone on to catalog and analyze all the Cylon material. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:32, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::::To be fair, there hasn't been much. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:39, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::::At any rate, my point was: This should either be cleaned up or deleted; we can't leave it as is. I myself should not clean it up, because I must say that in fairness to all others I would delete the entire article; as it seems some want to keep it, I probably shouldn't be the one to do it. However, someone should, soon.--Ricimer, [[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 13:19, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::Peter is not the only person with sharp, pointy concision teeth. I'll add a tidy-up to my to-do list. By the episode "Downloaded", we may have a LOT more on Cylon tactics, if not culture. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:55, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::To put it mildly. Re: Dowloaded, I'm not one to use the phrase "slam dunk" lightly, but....--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:44, 20 January 2006 (EST)

The consensus here appears to be "keep." Removing the delete tag, but adding a cleanup tag to ask someone to make it less jargon-rich. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:25, 30 January 2006 (EST)

==Heavy Edit==

The Consensus was to keep this page, but with heavy edits and cleanup. That was one month ago. No one has tried to clean it up since then, so I took it upon myself to at least try. '''It is my firm opinion that user "Jzanjani" was a troll, who really contributed nothing of any actual value to this wiki''', such as this page in its previous form. We do not have Colonial tactics pages or anything, and really *everything in this article that he wrote was redundant because it was already stated in other pages*. '''Therefore''', I decided that the best course of action would be, if the consensus was to keep this page (I wanted to delete it outright), to base it as closely to ''on-screen'' sources as possible. I believe this cleanup was for the best. If my actions are extreme, it is because we live in extreme times.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 04:08, 20 February 2006 (EST)
:Oh, Ricimer! So zealous! So expeditious! My beautiful language! My learned syntax and grammar! All of it gone! You are too cruel. [[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 02:38, 21 February 2006 (EST)

User talk:The Merovingian

2006-02-21T07:33:21Z

Jzanjani:

''Why is a raven like a writing desk?''

== Regarding your RfA ==

Hi Ricimer, while your RfA did not pass, I firmly and wholeheartedly believe that you are fully capable of passing the RfA, should it come up again within, say, six months. If you have any concerns, feel free to address them with Peter, myself, or any of the other major contributors. Have a happy New Year! -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:31, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:I have yet to play my trump card. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:32, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:: Should I be afraid? *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 20:21, 31 December 2005 (EST)

== Battle Template ==

You're the guy who came up with this, right? Do you think that a) the thing could be made into an actual template (like the Character Data one with dissappearing/reappearing fields, etc) and b) it could be re-designed to look like the Character Data one (in terms of looking like the rest of the theme (the red/black is the default theme, isn't it?)? I don't know how these two things would be accomplished, but I thought I'd put this out there and see what you thought as far as feasability and also as far as ''should'' we do it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:00, 18 January 2006 (EST)

== User name change ==

Just letting you know that I changed your name from Ricimer to The Merovingian. Let me know if you encounter any issues, not that I'm expecting any but just in case Murphy's Law decides to come and play. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:19, 7 February 2006 (EST)

: Also on this topic: You should probably update the first sentence of your User page to reflect the name change. If you want, I could probably get a decent screen-grab of the identically named character from the Matrix. Unfortunately, I don't have a DVD from which to grab pictures that stars any of the folks who founded Paris. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:24, 8 February 2006 (EST)
::Yes, actually, that would help immensly. I need one of The Merovingian when he's in Club Hel, standing at the balcony looking imperiously down at Neo. A shot that shows his whole body instead of a closeup would be preferred. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:13, 8 February 2006 (EST)
:::You should watch "Revolutions" again. Merv isn't peering down at Neo but at Morpheus, Trinity, and Seraph (Neo never visits Club Hel in the movie series, although the Path of Neo video game takes him there while the Club is closed). I'll also try to get a screencap for you if time allows. My Matrix knowledge may be better than my BSG knowledge (note witty, illustrated user page; I've been almost tempted to change my user name to something more appropriate... ;) By the way, I like your revised user page. Merv is one of those characters whose deserved more exploration on the same level as the Oracle and the Architect. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:45, 8 February 2006 (EST)

:"Neo" just came out; I was thinking Seraph & Co., just typed the wrong thing. (''That little Judas! I'm going to have him killed and buried in a shallow grave, then dig him up and kill him again...'''That's the beauty of a shallow grave!''') ''--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 16:52, 8 February 2006 (EST)

::I actually took a philosphy class and my choice for a paper was on ''The Matrix''. Basically, I've made several of the more...insightful speculations about The Merovingian on his Wikipdia article. You see, Morpheus and Neo represent Socrates: wanting to get out of "The Cave" to the real world beyond, etc. However, I believe (and I'm the only person I know of who's thought of this; I didn't read it anywhere, but thought it up after reading ''Leviathan'') that The Merovingian is the embodiment of Thomas Hobbes in The Matrix. He spouts off Hobbesian thought all of the time. Hobbes said that "choice is an illusion" that the only constant is "cause and effect", and that the best thing we can do with our lives is kind of movie along with the flow of causality in such a way that we enjoy all of the *physical, transient* pleasures that we can, while we can. Live a life of comfornt and luxury, etc. The Merovingian *lives out* this ideal: He's living in complete luxury, like at Le Vrai, the Chateau, Club Hel (and he has affairds with women all the time, etc), he wields a great deal of physical power...yet recognizes that it's all just "a game" devoid of purpose; it's transient, etc. He's stopped seeing any higher meaning in anything. --->Hobbes was a big critic of Socrates, and his philosophy was the polar opposte of Socrates' thought. In the same way, The Merovingian opposes Neo and Morpheus' philoshpy of getting out of the Matrix.
:I hold with the theory that he's a former One, that got his brain pattern scanned into a computer to outlive the death of his body. But he got so disillusioned with all of the lies and how the quest for freedom was just a reset button, that he turned against all of this and became the master of the Exiles, living the complete opposite of all of this (note; he ''really hates'' the Oracle, and views everything Neo says about her with extreme sarcasm). Plus, the initials "LV" on the walls of "Le Vrai" are Roman numerals for "LV" = 55. Now, we've already seen 303= Trinity, 101= Neo. So there's something about The Merovingian and the number "5". On top of this, when we first meet him there are 5 glasses set out in front of him (and Persephone, his Trinity-analog, has 3 chocolates on her plate). --->There have been 5 "Ones" before Neo. I think the Merovingian is the ''first'' "One". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:01, 8 February 2006 (EST)

:::Yeah, that theory and his Hobbes relationship (I think--it may be in a book I read) is on the Wikipedia article. I edited the article in dispute of Merv being a past One. It all comes down to some logic points. ''Why'' does he hate the Oracle so much? Because she succeeded where he failed. She stabilized the Matrix by adding true choice, where Merv was likely tapped by the Architect earlier to program basic cause-effect subroutines in the Matrix code as well as manage the root-programs in Matrix-beta-2 that could be used to help with these changes (these programs he now holds for his own purposes). The Architect realized the utopian flaw in beta-1 and thought that simple cause-effect (combined with the root-programs--the monsters of myth) would be sufficient to convince the human minds. He was wrong, of course. Remember that the Merovingian is big on cause-effect, and the Oracle states that he is one the oldest of them all, which makes his human origin very unlikely as the machines by then were fully distrustful of humanity and saw itself as a steward, not bothering to hear out humanity anymore than we would listen to the needs of an ant. The One is purely human; if the Merovingian were a "One", he would have been generated within beta-2, and, as a result, would not be like the Ones that base their power from true choice (particularly the power to ''dis''believe what they see and act otherwise). To add to that: Merv could also be very mad at the Oracle because, in the Oracle's version of the Matrix, any powers he may have had in beta-2 are practically non-existent. (You gave me a new take the character now from that...hmm.) Oh, and "La Vrai" means, "The Truth", which is just Merv's way of protesting of what's around him..vulgarities of "choice". Only in his establishments, by the name implication, will the populace understand the "truth" about what is illusion to him (choice) and real (cause and effect).

:::I wrote a paper about the origin of the One (with a bit on Merv) for a SF convention that will BLOW. YOUR. MIND. If you like, I'd be happy to send you a PDF of it. I've not published this as yet, so it's a unique read that incorporates the above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:29, 8 February 2006 (EST)

::::I would like to BLOW. MY. MIND. as well... <small>''the preceeding, signed comment and small recommendation that Spence forward me a copy of his insightful paper on Merv was made by [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] on 17:47, 8 February 2006 (EST) :-)''</small>

::::: Actually, Spence... Could you just, maybe, copy it to User:Spencerian/Matrix or something? It might save you from forwarding it to a billion people. If you don't like that idea, then put me on your forwarding list. --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:19, 9 February 2006 (EST)

:There, I must disagree with you. The Merovingian is not "the oldest of us" but "one of the oldest of us", which would still fit my interpretation. Further, in ''Leviathan'' Hobbes goes on a tangent where he says that because everything in life is "cause and effect", logically, we should '''in theory''' be able to predict the future, because life has no external factors (god, random choice, etc. Fate/causality rules all). But he adds that '''in practice''', this is impossible, simply because there are so many variants that the human mind cannot grasp at once--->it reminds me of discussions of ''psychohistory'' in "Prelude to Foundation"; hen Hari Seldon originally presented his first paper theorizing that psychohistory was ''possible'', he explained that he did not yet have a working model because his paper essentially just proved that you could actually analyze all of the "antecedants" of life in a computer model. I.e. if the universe is so compex that the only functional "model" of it is something as big and complicated as the universe itself, such a model is useless. However, he said that you ''could'' actually make a model smaller than the universe itself..
::Well, the point is that according to The Merovingian's own Hobbesian principles, he is in a possition SIMULTANEOUSLY A) He believes the world to be governed by nothing but causality, and therefore, he should be able to predict the future, but B) THE VERY SAME principles that idea is based on also state that predicting the future is ''Practically'' impossible. This might get a little annoying to him. --->So then there's The Oracle, who CAN predict the future, while he cannot (though in theory, he should). Therefore, this adds another level of hate for her, and he wants the "eyes of the Oracle" (which he's "Wanted ever since I came ''here'') because he's jealous. And who's to say the Machines would not want to tap the talen of the "grotesque" human mind in designing/running a more human world (beta-2)? I digress. P.S. Don't get me started on MXO's Agent Pace...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 18:13, 8 February 2006 (EST)

:::Yes, Merv is one of the oldest, not the oldest. Merv was only half-right, which is why his Matrix worked only halfway. Predicting the future is not impossible if the events in the world ''work like a computer program does.'' He wanted to predict things logically--but, with choice involved, prediction becomes far less logical or predictable. When people in his Matrix version realized they, too, could guess the logical cause and effect, they lost believablity in their Matrix. The Oracle's Matrix has no such problem for the most part. Hey, you haven't an email address to send you my paper (Joe just got a copy). You can send me your address privately to my email if you care not to post it publicly. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:57, 8 February 2006 (EST)

:::: '''Tangent''': I once tried to start up a Matrix-themed MUSH which was to be placed in an unspecified previous iteration of the Matrix, only a few years after the death of the One that started the thing. We had some lengthy debates about how to implement the Oracle or make any sort of assertions that would A) be specific enough so as to be cool when they came true but, b) be vague enough so as to be possible in a roleplaying environment that included, well, ''choice''. Eventually, though, all the staffers got busy doing [http://www.guildwars.com other] [[Main Page|things]]. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:19, 9 February 2006 (EST)

: Merovingian, eh? I must say I like it, much preferable to Ricimer - and I'm not a troll. [[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 02:33, 21 February 2006 (EST)

==A ''Revelation'' I've Had==

[AgentSmith]Let me share a ''revelation'' I've had [/Agentsmith]. In case you are new, most here are of the consensus that my attitude towards edits is overall blunt/brusk, not "polite", etc. (it's just letters on a screen, so I just never gauged "politeness" much; not that I make personal attacks, just that I "cut through it" and say what I'm thinkin'). Anyway, '''Day''' summarized some of this pretty well on Talk:Perry when he said just now: "''your jumping off the cuff with aggressive language at people who simply disagree with you. It may be a matter that would be handled by inflection, were you interacting in real life, but you should realize that when you're dealing with text only, you have only very gross control over inflection: normal, bold and italics. And they can be construed as meaning many things. As a side note, I've noticed you like to use bold and such a lot and so, sometimes, you do combinations or all-caps or asterisks for further emphasis. I mean this in only an entirely constructive way, but... I have no idea how to interpret those passages except as very loud, so they're more confuysing to me, personally, than helpful.''". Well, I think I've '''finally realized what the crux of the problem was:'''

Loss of essence. A profound sense of fatiuge, a feeling of emptiness...caused by terrorists trying to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids, through water fluoridation. It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core terrorist works. He hold no value for human life, not even his own. Well, I can no longer sit back and allow terrorist infiltration, terrorist indoctrination, terrorist subversion and the international terrorist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.--->Hahaha, sorry. I can never resist a good plug for the old ''Dr. Strangelove'' routine.

But I digress.

No, seriously. I finally realized what the crux of all of this friction has been: As you know, I am a prolific poster on the official messageboard. '''I think the problem is, I've been posting on BattlestarWiki as if it were a messageboard'''. You see, messageboards aren't as formal and a lot of, well, yelling, arguing as part of debate, etc., is actually ''the norm'' there. Further, when it comes to '''my''' ''overuse'' of ''' ''**inflection**'' '''....I'm just *used* to typing that way because that's how you highlight and emphasize stuff on messageboard posts (it's sort of how you make up for not being able to see visible social cues, etc.) Also--->Posts on messageboards can sometimes fill an entire Microsoft word single-spaced document page. They can get really long. So you've really got to highlight the beginning of every new idea or paragraph like that to make your point, etc.

But on the whole, it's just a different atmosphere, more "pack-mentality" to establish dominance through a show of force (GREAT Farscape joke about that one in the first episode of the fourth season...but I digress.), and a fanatical amount of information, etc.

I realize it took me a while, but I've finally come to the full realization that '''My Talk page posts, etc. seem kind of rough because I'm just typing like these are messageboard posts'''. (Messageboard posts disappared practially after 5 minutes, so you try to have as big an impact as possible, while here they just stay there for long periods, etc.)

So, I've realized that that's what's been going on, and I realize now (from experience) just how different a wiki is from that, so I will alter my tone accordingly. (Of course, I'll still '''highlight''' stuff that might seem important, but not go overboard). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:36, 10 February 2006 (EST)

:Excellent! That's an angle I hadn't considered. The signal to noise ratio is definitely much higher here than at some other places. Heck, the fact that people were still discussing a question I asked around the first of December is an excellent demonstration between the way things happen around here and the official board. I hope you have begun to see that the people here value what you have to say/contribute (without the need to clamor to be heard above the din). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:30, 10 February 2006 (EST)

:: That may be a very apt metaphor, SV. Reading Merv's posts is sometimes like listening to someone who thinks your in the other room, but really you're right behind them. Roughly, "Hey. I'm already ''listening'', '''Dude'''." *wink* Anyway, I hope this is exactly the issue at, uh... issue, here. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:24, 10 February 2006 (EST)

== Recent Rollback ==

Hey. I rolled back your last edit on [[Louanne Katraine]] because we don't use quotes with single episode citations enclosed in parentheses. So, if I wrote an episode name when discussing an episode in this sentence that talks about, say, "[[Scar]]", it doesn't look like a citation like this ([[Scar]]). For consistancy we do quotes within parentheses in a string of episodes cited, with the exception of the Miniseries name, which is not an episode name per se ([[Miniseries]], "[[Scattered]]", "[[Fragged]]"). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:19, 10 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, thank you. I was confused on this. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:22, 10 February 2006 (EST)

== Template Categories ==
What are you looking for for the writers and directors? A navigation template? Or a category (I ran into [[:Category:Directors]] after I created one)? I'd be glad to help, I just don't have a concept of what you're needing. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 20:19, 10 February 2006 (EST)

When I write pages about Sharon, Number Six, etc. I write at the bootom "Category:Cylons" (with double brackets around it). I think we need a Category set for "Writers" and "Directors" (in place of "Cylons"). However, one or two episodes split the "Writers" credit between "Teleplay" and "Story by" (see official site episode guide). I just put "Story by" into "Story by" slots in the guide, and Writer for who wrote the Teleplay: Regardless, I think both Teleplay and Story writers should fall under the "Writers" category, and I will make note of which was which on their individual pages.
----->Essentially, I realized we had no "At a Glance" method of seeing the past work of a writer or director. Essentially, I see that episode 3.12 is coming up, and I see "hmm, who is this? why, I'll click on his name and get a list of other episodes he's done.....oh no! He wrote the abysmal "Black Market"!...or..."Hmm, she wrote the wonderful "Resistance"...this should be interesting. I'm trying to make A) pages for all of the writers and directors, and B) lists on those individual pages of all the episodes they've worked on, so, logically--->C)We should have a more fully developed category system for "Writers" and "Diretors" (the rudiments of which are present on the main page, but which were never fully developed. I felt that now is a good a time as any.)--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:33, 10 February 2006 (EST)
:There's a directors category already, and a Category:Director: Michael Rymer, which is a subcategory of Michael Rymer. Thus if you tag an episode with Category:Director: Michael Rymer it should fall under the Michael Rymer category. The directors category would then just be a container for all those subcategories. So we just need a Category:Director: X where X is each director (and make sure that each of those has the category of Director, so that they show up as subcategories). We could then make a template, I guess, but since we're talking about just having to add one category tag at the bottom, I'm not sure it merits a template. I'll start up the Category:Writers, if you want, if you could list out which Directors and Writers we need to capture. We may want to consult with Farago on this, as he has a knack for categorization. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 20:44, 10 February 2006 (EST)
::Ah. There's already a Category:Writers as well. Looks like somebody planned ahead. It looks like we'd just need to make the subcategories then. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 20:47, 10 February 2006 (EST)

== Rollback ==

I rolled back your last edit on the Binary Star System article. "Battlestar" is not capitalized unless at the start of a sentence or when used in the show's name. The article referenced is [[Mercury class battlestar]] as shown and needed no capitalization. "Axis" to "column" (or spire) adds little to the edit, but it's a matter of taste there. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:15, 19 February 2006 (EST)

==Just to say==
Merv, I just wanted to say that I think you've been putting an excellent face forward recently. Keep it up. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:23, 19 February 2006 (EST)

''All is proceeding according to plan..''--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:07, 19 February 2006 (EST)

== Colonial arm patches and insignia ==

No offence, but call yourself a Battlestar Galactica fan?
Some Merovingian you are! you are an insult to both the name and the entire series of both past and present series of "Battlestar".
If you want to recognise these images in my document, which took me the better part of my morning (and life):
1)Watch the entirerity of Battlestar Galactica(1978) and Battlestar Galactica(2003) for all of said patches on the uniforms.
2)LOOK on EBAY! If they are so wrong, why are they selling them? They are free pictures from a public site of official merchandise! The rank structure is off this site!
I've been watching Battlestar Galactica since I could crawl when it was first aired!! You're just envious that I have done this amount of research in such a small space of time and used little devices called brain cells.
My advice, before you engage your keyboard, open your eyes and watch the damn program(s)! Only one person has left neutral feedback and spotted things even I missed!! Fair play to him.
Question) Why go to such lengths to put true fans of the program down?
Answer) Envy. --[[User:Jetstorm316|Jetstorm316]]

:I suggest you reconsider your statements with a calmer head, and learn that, as "Merv" has, politeness goes a long way. Also, never assume malevolence when incompetence remains a possibility. ;) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 16:47, 20 February 2006 (EST)

Thank you, Redwall, for defending me. There are several things you need pointed out which I believe your are unaware of Jetstorm316:

:'''1) I am not the person that deleted all of the images which you added to "Colonial arm patches and insignia"; that was Administrator SteelViper, who did so on February 20th, at 14:23.''' Please check the History page to confirm this, if you must.

:'''2) All I ever edited that you posted was on the [[Uniform]] page, and all I did was remove links to "Colonial arm patches"''', when it became apparent that
::A) SteelViper had already deleted most of the images from this page.
::B) As you can see now, Administrator Spencerian has already marked that page for deletion. '''All I have actually done is remove links to a page about to be deleted. I am not the one that deleted your images, or that is attempting to delete that page'''.
::C) There were also some minor factual corrections to "Uniform"; First: No, black arm bands are not worn only by "military police"; all Marines seen wearing the khaki uniform have black armbands. Does this mean they're Marines or Non-Coms? I don't know. Seemed a minor point. Second, despite your..."amount of research", it is false to say that "there is a grey arm patch on the left shoulder"; in fact, it is grey ''shoulder patches'' which I was referring to, not a single armpatch; I have since edited the article to be more specific.

:'''3)''' Your only real complaint against me is that I corrected the "Uniform" page: '''Your claims to having paid close attention to Original Series BSG are actually irrelevant in this matter, because the "[[Uniform]]" page deals entirely with Re-Imagined Series material.'''

So please, if you have a complaint about your images being deleted, please bring it to Administrator SteelViper, who deleted them.

I would hasten to point out that '''E-Bay should not be considered a reliable source of information, to put it mildly'''. One of your patches for Re-Imagined Pegasus was blatantly wrong, as it stated "BSG 63" instead of "BSG 62". The Pegasus emblem was displayed heavily in last week's episode, "[[The Captain's Hand]]", in which it is seen big and clearly on screen many times as "BSG-62": "''My advice, before you engage your keyboard, open your eyes and watch the...program''". I think more of these problems might exist in the other images. Please provide reliable sources for them, following the rules of our [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|Battlestar Wiki Citation Crusade]]. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:12, 20 February 2006 (EST)

: I concur, Merv. eBay is not a source sanctioned by the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|Citation Jihad]]. Just because something is sold there does not mean it is factual. Look at all the obviously wrong STar Trek stuff that sells on there. Or all the random, literally, ''trash'' that sells. Jetstorm, if you're reading this, we ''greatly'' prefer to use stills from the actual episodes for images when we can. If not, then we're much more likely to want drawn (whether by hand or electronically) images, rather than photos of fan-created props. What we would risk losing in accuracy from such fan-created works (artwork or, for instance, sewing) we'd gain in the ability to change some .psd on a regualr user's HD. It is quite bad form to flip out at someone for changing your edit to a page. It is ''quite'' bad form to do so at the wrong person. --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:05, 21 February 2006 (EST)

Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/Ricimer

2005-12-24T19:37:42Z

Jzanjani: Ricimer

===[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]]===
'''[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:<nowiki>Battlestar_Wiki:Requests_for_adminship/Ricimer</nowiki>|action=edit}} Vote here] '''
'''(2/2/0) ending <nowiki>09:15</nowiki> 28 December 2005 (EST)'''

{{User|Ricimer}} – I think I'd be good for administrator because of A) My stagering knowledge of all things BSG (haha), B) my extensive body of work here notably on the episode guides, battle pages, and C) My political handling of debates such as "Are there 12 Cylon models", which all resulted in compromise rather than arbitrary deletion. D) My good looks. I'm formally putting myself up for nomination, etc. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 09:15, 21 December 2005 (EST)

:''Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here:''

'''Support'''
# I was waiting until the RFA got a little more ironed out before nominating you, but I guess I can still contribute by casting a vote. While he may come off as abrasive at times, he is unquestionably a vigilant defender of the Battlestar Wiki. The battle pages alone are a major addition, one that I am trying to use as a model to migrate over to the TOS side. You can tell Ricimer takes the Battlestar wiki pretty seriously. I mean, not too many users will hold out "until the flesh is hacked from [their] bones" to defend a principle they strongly believe. This nomination completes the trifecta of my favorites, and I think he would make a fine admin. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:07, 21 December 2005 (EST)
# FOR. I won't elaborate because I need to get to the bank and then make a movie time. --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:08, 21 December 2005 (EST)

'''Oppose'''
#Comment: Ricimer's temper issues, especially with regard to new contributors, strike me as a serious and ongoing problem. He has demonstrated substantial improvement recently, and his excellent contributions speak for themselves, but I sadly cannot support his RFA at this time. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:51, 21 December 2005 (EST)
#*Having given this matter substantial thought, I am now changing my vote to "Oppose". I want to preface my arguments by stating that I do not consider Ricimer to be an enemy by any stretch of the imagination. He is one of our best contributors, as I have stated on numerous occasions. However, I do not believe that this alone qualifies him for adminship, and I do in fact have serious reservations about that prospect. To continue:
#*Ricimer has demonstrated extreme hostility toward newbies on numerous occasions, as pointed out by both myself and others on his talk page. Although he has improved as of very recently, recent comments such as "helps to have conservative ballast around" and "best to strike while the iron is hot", do not - to me - indicate that he has repented of his past behavior. Although I frequently agree with his criticisms of new users' contributions, I do not admire his attacks and abrasive language towards newbies. The vast majority of such contributions are made in good faith. Those that are factually incorrect can be removed; those that are badly written can be corrected. The only "bad users" are those who are unresponsive to communication and refuse to cooperate in the wiki community, and in such cases harsh language is plainly without efficacy.
#*He has conducted himself with a hot-headed style which leaves him open to attack (as we saw with the Jzanjani incident). I do not mean to imply that Ricimer would abuse any powers delegated to him, but his haste to anger and quick judgements will not serve him well as an administrator.
#*In conclusion, I must '''oppose''' Ricimer's RFA. I hope that my comments will not impede our cooperation on future projects, and that he will understand that my opinions are not born from any personal grudge. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:56, 22 December 2005 (EST)
#Despite Ricimer's great contributions to the wiki, I don't approve of his behaviour towards other contributing members. A relative majority of his comments appear hostile in nature, and behaviour of this kind will only provoke trolls to vandalize the articles. That said, Ricimer, keep up the excellent contributions, your vigilance is appreciated, but needs to be tempered. --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 12:52, 24 December 2005 (EST)
#As one of the many victims of Ricimer's angry and immoderate editing zeal, I'm afraid I must speak against his promotion to admin. Ricimer has repeatedly demonstrated that he is incapable of understanding and sympathizing with opinions which do not match his own - to say nothing of his reaction to contrarian viewpoints! - and bestowing the power of administration will allow him simply more opportunity to abuse this resource to an even greater extent. Furthermore, he has also shown that he is ignorant of rules of etiquette which have been produced by consensus of members, not only in reverting others' edits but other ways as well. However, most importantly, although the other members of this community may feign to distinguish between quantity and quality, I would even question the intrinsic value of Ricimer's contributions to the material. As a writer, I know an amateur when I see his stuff, and Ricimer is an amateur of the most pedestrian variety. His style is ineffectual, rakish and emasculate, his spelling is atrocious and slipshod, his diction is uninspired, pretentious, and formulaic, and the general impression is that of an uncultured and uneducated ignoramus affecting to be something quite different. The community shall please keep in mind that I am speaking of the impression given by Ricimer's writing only, and am not making any disparagements of his character. After thoughtful deliberation, I am sure that the members of this community will come to the right decision and vote against this proposal. [[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]]
'''Neutral'''

# I think Ricimer is one of our strongest contributors on this wiki: the various battle pages, starting with the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]] are some of his most excellent work. And, while sometimes a bit too gruff in his responses, he's ready to fend his point of view or sources from all comers. We're still working on improving his funny bone (he wasn't too pleased with the non-sequitur [[Toaster]] and [[The Battlestar Galactica Drinking Game]] articles, with some important dissent), but Ricimer's dedication to keeping the wiki informative, dynamic and from becoming a farce cannot be denied.

:*As an admin, I'm torn a bit. I think Ricimer is a fair person, but Ricimer has also documented that his gruffness can be taken the wrong way, causing others to be put off. Unfortunately, when he has been personally attacked, he tended to respond back in the same way, something that an administrator (in my opinion) can never do. I would recommend that voters look back on both Ricimer's contributions and missteps and judge for themselves. I think he'd be a good admin, but as both contributors and as administrators, we all have to show responibility, tact, and neutrality. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:15, 24 December 2005 (EST)

'''Comments'''

'''Questions for the candidate'''<br />

''A few generic questions to provide guidance for voters:''
:'''1.''' What duties, if any, would you anticipate helping with? Please check out [[:Category:Project Page]]s for a list of projects.
::A. First and foremost, the episode guides, the meat and potatos of this wiki. Secondly, I've been starting to help out with the podcast pages that got started. Thirdly, Citation Crusade: making sure "independent research" is not used.

:'''2.''' Of your articles or contributions here, are there any about which you are particularly pleased, and why?
::A. The battles pages, all of which were of my own design (I made the battleboxes for Lord of the Rings battles on standard wikipedia, and when these were done, I wanted to keep doing ''something'' like that so I created the battles series here); secondly, due yo my vast knowledge of BSG trivial facts and analysis, I have made great contributions to the episode guides, and as it's not like I have a life outside of this :) I'm usually the first to post notes for an episode up after it airs (though this is not a rule), and I'm really happy with the episode guide stuff I've done (check the history tabs, etc).

:'''3.''' Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or do you feel other users have caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?
::A. Firstly, debate and compromise. I had that running 12 Cylons debate with Philwelch, but it was resolved civily and now we're cool. Secondly, in cases of that troll Jzanjani, who kept attacking me, I requested that he be put on temporary ban by Joe, and he was.

Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad

2005-10-27T14:34:13Z

Jzanjani: /* Members */

[[Wikipedia:Jihad|Jihad]] is an arabic word meaning "to exert utmost effort, to strive, to struggle". At the Battlestar Wiki, we strive to be a comprehensive and accurate source of [[canon]]ical information. Because of the nature of a wikipedia to which anyone may contribute, it is vital that sources be cited and facts checked. This project page is intended to serve as the hub of these operations.

==Acceptable Sources==
In ''roughly'' descending order of reliability:
#On-screen evidence
#*[http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/battlestar/ TWIZ TV] is a good source for episode transcripts
#Official comments from the producers:
#*[http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/ Episode podcats]
#*DVD commentaries
#*[http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/ Ronald D. Moore's blog]
#*[http://scifi.com/battlestar/bts/videoblog/ David Eick's video blog]
#Other statements from producers, cast, and crew
#The SciFi channel and SkyOne websites

This list is an important guideline, but is not to be slavishly obeyed. If David Eick mentions offhand that ''Galactica'' is four inches long, but a reliable source from [[Zoic]] gives scaling information used in the visual effects sequences, deference should be given to Zoic's field of expertise. (This would also fall under the guideline of placing on-screen evidence before producer's commentary). Obvious gaffes and bloopers should also be ignored.

Where later comments contradict earlier ones, defer to the most recent statement and make a note at [[List of retcons (RDM)]]. An example of this is the size of the fleet, increased from 40 ships in the miniseries to 75 in the series. If the issue is not decisively settled, make a note at the bottom of the page (see [[Olympic Carrier#Notes]] for an example).

'''List of sites that are not good sources'''
*'''Battlestar Wiki itself''' – This is important. If you read information here that you have not verified yourself, do not trust it.
*[http://www.wikipedia.org Wikipedia] – Where Wikipedia cites its own sources, it can be a useful guide. However, uncited assertions should not be trusted.
*[http://www.imdb.com/ IMDB] – IMDB has not demonstrated a rigorous standard of fact-checking.
*Fan sites such as [http://www.tecr.com/galactica/index.html Battlestar Galactica Tech Manual], [http://www3.telus.net/public/akamyot/chistory.htm Colonial History], [http://www.galacticastation.com/ Galactica Station] where they do not themselves cite sources.

==Our Weapons==
We have imported {{tl|ref}} and {{tl|note}} from Wikipedia for the purpose of making footnotes where in-text citations become too cumbersome. See [[Wikipedia:Help:Footnotes|Help:Footnotes]] for instructions.

==Our Missions==

===Articles needing sources===

*[[Original Battlestar (RDM)]]
*[[Number Six]] - in which Germanic language does "Godfrey" mean "peace"?
*[[Battlestar Group]] - there's an unsourced comment from Moore's blog here.

===Widespread misconceptions (aka "[[Wikipedia:Fanon (fiction)|Fanon]]")===

*The RDM ''Galactica'' is not equipped with [[railgun]]s (see link for firm evidence)
*It has never been stated that there are twelve Lords of Kobol.

===Characters with Non-Canon First Names===
*Brendan [[Constanza]]
**Article at [[Constanza]], redirect from [[Brendan Constanza]], [[Hot Dog]], [[Hotdog]]
**Source: IMDB
*Joyce [[Hadrian]]
**Article at [[Hadrian]], redirect from [[Sergeant Hadrian]].
**Source: "hint by sources close to production"
*Richard [[Adar]]
**Source: SkyOne

==Members==
Show your commitment to accuracy. Join up!
*[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:19, 29 September 2005 (EDT)
*[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:20, 29 September 2005 (EDT) (self-dubbed Lord of "It's ''Galactica'' not '''the''' ''Galactica''" Corrections)
*[[User:Day|Day]] 21:49, 30 September 2005 (EDT)
*::"Your episode citations go ''inside'' the period."
*[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 13 October, 2005 (EDT) - I tape and watch the reruns like a hawk; should get all of the names from the credits this time around.
[[Category:Project Page|Citation Jihad]]
*[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 10:34, 27 October 2005 (EDT)
*::"Cocaine is a hell of a drug." - Rick James

Vulpa

2005-10-19T05:05:18Z

Jzanjani:

Vulpa is the name of a [[Cylons (TOS)|Cylon]] [[Command Centurion]] in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]], in command of the [[Ravishol]] Pulsar, a large energy-based weapon which becomes a lethal danger to the [[Fleet]] ([[The Gun on Ice Planet Zero, Part I]]). Vulpa tasked his pilots with the abduction of a [[Colonial Warrior]] from the [[Battlestar (TOS)|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica (TOS)|Galactica]]''. These pilots return with Cadet [[Cree]], and because he suspects that Cree had been providing [[Wikipedia:misinformation|misinformation]] during interrogation, Vulpa subjects him to a brain probe. Vulpa later kills [[Leda]] and is himself killed by [[Starbuck (TOS)|Starbuck]] during a raid by several Galactica pilots.

Actor unknown.

== Notes ==

*Evidently, Vulpa was present at the [[Battle of Cimtar]].
*He was also intended to be a recurring character, but was killed in order for Baltar to be a larger threat to the Fleet in the series' development.

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: Characters (TOS)]]
[[Category: Cylons]]

Vulpa

2005-10-19T05:04:26Z

Jzanjani: Grammatical Reworking

Vulpa is the name of a [[Cylons (TOS)|Cylon]] [[Command Centurion]] in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]], in command of the [[Ravishol]] Pulsar, a large energy-based weapon which becomes a lethal danger to the [[Fleet]] ([[The Gun on Ice Planet Zero, Part I]]). Vulpa tasked his pilots with the abduction of a [[Colonial Warrior]] from the [[Battlestar (TOS)|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica (TOS)|Galactica]]''. These pilots return with Cadet [[Cree]], and because he suspects that Cree had been providing [[Wikipedia:misinformation|misinformation]] during interrogation, Vulpa subjects him to a [[brain probe]]. Vulpa later kills [[Leda]] and is himself killed by [[Starbuck (TOS|Starbuck]] during a raid by several Galactica pilots.

Actor unknown.

== Notes ==

*Evidently, Vulpa was present at the [[Battle of Cimtar]].
*He was also intended to be a recurring character, but was killed in order for Baltar to be a larger threat to the Fleet in the series' development.

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: Characters (TOS)]]
[[Category: Cylons]]

User talk:Jzanjani

2005-10-17T01:26:34Z

Jzanjani: Enter PAIN

AIM: Kinaesthete

Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/american_jaakesh

==Your "apology" to Ricimer==
I hope you realize that your quite valid points about consuming the time of Spencerian, Watcher and myself with your juvenile antics only succeeds in making your [[User talk:Ricimer|comments]] to Ricimer offensive to ''all'' of us. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:49, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

You guys need to loosen up. Seriously.
:''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 17:53, 7 October 2005 (EDT)''

::I agree with Peter. If you think that "loosening up" means that we allow ''ad hominem'' attacks to Ricimer, you are just as wrong as he was in attacking you. We generally do not edit the comments of Talk pages, but in your case, I might make an exception. Ricimer is as valuable a contributor as you have shown so far (antics aside), but we veteran contributors also know he has a tendency to chomp on newbies, and we remind him not to as appropriate, while defending legitimate actions such as the contributions you have done. However, your post on Ricimer's talk page steps over the line, and frequent contributors like myself and Peter get annoyed, quickly. We have fun reading and contributing here; but loosening up with attacks is never, ever permitted. You are no exception.

::While our administrator of this site is a kind soul that does not kick fellow wikipedians out of BSG Wiki without sufficient cause, do not make the mistake that he cannot be persuaded. Ricimer was in the wrong, but you further insulting him is likely a violation of Wiki policy and '''IS''' grounds for your account being banned. I'd rather add to the contributions than remind you of this common-sense behavior, and I'm sure you will be happy to add to the Wiki rather than get the riot act read to you from the Wikipedians here. Think of it this way: If what you say or display on a board which, in real life, would you punched in the face if said in person, why would you think it would be appropriate here? [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:22, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

::I would like to point out again that I didn't know that someone is indeed allowed to edit their own talk page: had I known this I would never have re-instated this user page after it's own user deleted it. My error against the rules was one of ignorance, and for this I am sorry. ---Ricimer, October 7, 2005

:::It's okay Ricimer, you know I love you.<3 ''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 20:23, 7 October 2005 (EDT)''

::::I have removed your latest edit to Ricimer's page. Enough is enough. We know you two don't get along. We get it. Your edit was in poor taste and you are rapidly making a case for yourself to be banned. --[[User:Feldspar|Feldspar]] 03:52, 8 October 2005 (EDT)

== I Don't Wanna Brag, I Don't Wanna Boast... ==

...put two slices in the slot, you get [[Toaster|toast!]] YEAH, TOAST!!! [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:24, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

== Banned for 1 Week ==

Jzanjani,

I am the often-mentioned Joe that contributors speak of. Normally, I permit members of this Wiki to govern themselves and their behaviors as they see fit: though we are all prone to flaws of character or action at times, I believe people can act as mature adults. For the most part, as you might have noticed, I leave people be if they are acting in good faith -- more than likely, someone will stand up and say something, and the problem attends to itself.

However, there comes a time where I have to interviene. This, unfortunately, is a time where I am forced to interviene for the good of the community.

First off, let me say that I do not mind humor -- I use it myself, and quite often. However, since you are so quick to point out other people's flaws -- your comment regarding Peter's "anti-social" behavior prominently comes to mind -- perhaps you should look inward.

Before I go into this, I will frankly say that I don't pretend to be perfect; I am the furthest thing from it, and third from the left. I frak up like everyone else. However, I also learn from my frak-ups and move on.

I am also brutally honest when I have to be. I avoid beating around the bush whenever possible, hence the following:

Where you fraked up is in recognizing that some people aren't going to appreciate your humor. You failed to understand this and continued in your attempts at humor. In fact, you went overboard; linking to a picture of a kid giving the middle finger was insulting and unacceptable, as far as I am concerned. To add insult to injury, vandalizing Ricimer's page with an ad hominem attack and misusing this Wiki's resources (i.e. uploading a frivolous, non-encyclopedic picture) just worsens your position. If you are going to truly and fully apologize to someone, you don't mind frak them with something completely out of context.

Then again, I cannot tell people how to behave. That isn't my place; I am neither your parents nor guardians -- these are the people who should instruct their children in manners. Not Peter. Not Ricimer. Not Spencerian. Not I -- nor anyone else. If you find that you are incapable of showing other contributors humility, respect, integrity, and demonstrate maturity, then perhaps you have made a severe error in contributing to this wiki.

As for Ricimer, I'll talk to him personally; I will not ban him, because unlike you

In fact, I will go as so far as to state that perhaps you have wasted our time and, more importantly to you, ''your time'' in even trying.

Now, I'm not here to say that you are a stereotypical "bad person" or [[Wikipedia:troll|troll]]; as far as I know, you could be a diamond in the rough, and could provide worthwhile contributions to us.

Ultimately, the choice is up to you. This is why I have given you a temporary ban of one-week. You may still read the Wiki, if you want to, though you just can't contribute or post here. However, as one human being to another, I would recommend not visiting the Wiki for a week. Consider your options, and most importantly your actions to date.

Due to the apparent fact that you are a fairly eloquent and thoughtful person (by choice, it seems), I am leaving the ultimate decision to leave or stay up to you. Now, just to let you know, I ''can'' ban your account indefinitely; I don't want to do that, and don't want to waste my time in even going through the motions. For if I do, it will anger me; I have larger concerns at this time. I deal with stupidity on a daily basis, and while I cannot do anything about some of it, I will crush any stupidity I see within my sphere of influence.

With these words in mind, if you feel you need to contact me, check my user page and click on "E-mail this user".

Regards,

[[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]]

Above posted at: 21:07, 8 October 2005 (EDT)

:WOOOOO I'm back I'm back I'm back I'm back! oh Mercy - you guys are going to regret it - you WILL REGRET IT! just watch out for yourself now -- JUST WATCH OUT NOW, cuz JZ is gonna bring the P-P-P-PAIN! you weaklings think you can keep me in submission? do you really think you can keep me down? well you're in for a surprise - A RUDE, and PAINFUL surprise! ohhhhhh what time is it? GAME TIME! what time is it? GAME TIME! I will ensure you do not forget; no let me rephrase that, you WON'T be able to forget the PAIN which approaches like a storm gathering on the horizon. Here comes the storm! Here it comes, what can you do? The storm is coming! what are you going to do? what can you do? can you do anything, well what about NO NO NO - NOTHING, you will take shelter and cower like p'tagh from the PAIN. Here it comes...

User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr./Archive

2005-10-08T16:22:48Z

Jzanjani: /* Jzanjani */

: ''For discussions prior to September 2, 2005, [http://battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Joe.Beaudoin&oldid=12218 click here].''

== Character Pages... ==

I wasn't sure where to drop this, so I put it here... I thought about putting it in the update talk, but that didn't seem right, either. I wonder if we shouldn't standardize how the Character pages are laid out (aside from the [[Template:Character Data]], I mean). For instance, [[Lee Adama]]'s looks really sharp. Notice it's got the contents at the top, then his Bio (the title of which might be haggled over later Biography vs. Biographical Notes or whatever), which ties in nicely to the Character Data box. On the other hand, if a page is too short to have or organized such that it doesn't have contents, that might look a little odd (Cf. [[User:Day|Day]]).

On the other hand, we could do something like [[Aaron Doral]]'s page with the intro paragraph to kind of act as that spacer in lieu of the contents listing. However, in cases where you ''do'' have a contents listing this looks, to my eye, not as sharp (Cf. [[Agathon, Karl C.]] which will soon be moved by me to [[Karl C. Agathon]] assuming I can figure out how to do it).

So, Joe and anyone else reading this... Whatcha think? Should we do without the intro and go straight into the Bio with a level 2 heading so that our longer write-ups look sharper? Should we have that intro so that our longer write-ups look less sharp, but our shorter ones look more sharp? Or should we change this based on length, so that there's an intro paragraph if it's too short for contents, but no intro paragraph when it gets long enough for one?

'''OR''' is my aesthetic sense telling me wrong and you guys like things I think are "less sharp" and so we should go with some otehr scheme entirely? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:51, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:We had the same idea, day. I've started a project page at [[Battlestar Wiki:Characters]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:00, 31 August 2005 (EDT)
::Wonderous! I'm going to move my character-based project notes from my User page to that project page. Collaboration and communication please me. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:16, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

::: Would you mind, Joe, changing the [[Template:Character Data]] talk page to reflect the new fields-that-can-be-invisible? This way we can go through and remove a bunch of people marked "Unknown." --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:14, 9 September 2005 (EDT)

==Deletions==

Joe, could you either examine the move requests at [[Battlestar Wiki:Characters]] and assist us with moves to article titles already occupied with redirects, or enable me to delete the relevant redirects myself? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:53, 31 August 2005 (EDT)
: I'll aid you as needed. Good project BTW. :-) -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:05, 31 August 2005 (EDT)
:: Specifically, Joe, we need [[Karl Agathon]] and [[Gaius Baltar]] deleted so that we can move [[Agathon, Karl C.]] and [[Baltar, Gaius]] to them respectively. Thanks. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:18, 2 September 2005 (EDT)
::: Deleted and moved. Please make sure other pages use the [[Gaius Baltar]] and [[Karl Agathon]] links instead of the redirects! -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:43, 2 September 2005 (EDT)
:::: We'll keep our eyes out. Do redirects cause more strain on the server or is it more of a cleanliness issue? --[[User:Day|Day]] 19:17, 2 September 2005 (EDT)
::::: Cleanliness more than anything else. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:23, 2 September 2005 (EDT)

I wonder if you could delete this [[:Image:Bastille_Day-Mason.jpg|picture]] of [[Mason]]. For some reason, it won't upload right or something. I've tried (as you can see) a couple of times and I'd like to see if a fresh upload would work. Thanks. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:20, 13 September 2005 (EDT)
:Can we just have a VFD page, actually? I think it might be time to have elections for additional admins, if you're willing. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:49, 13 September 2005 (EDT)
:: I'll be looking to get some additional admins in here anyway. I'll just have to set up the process -- probably people can self-nominate themselves, then the community can take a vote on two or three admins -- so that I can leave the "day to day" operations, per se, to the admins. (I'll still do the major stuff, but I'd rather delegate these "day to day" tasks -- such as page deletions and so forth -- to others.)

As for a "VFD" process... I'm not a fan of Wikipedia's VFD, because it causes unnecessary problems between contributors and the process needs work. (I know that there are many competing groups who want the VFD changed out in lieu of something better.) So, while there should be a way to nominate possible articles and images for deletion, I don't believe a VFD is a great way to do so and I don't plan on implementing the VFD process used by Wikipedia on this wiki. Signing off, your benevolent Imperious Leader... -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 10:16, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:In the meantime, I've created [[Battlestar Wiki:Stuff for deletion]] to list cruft that clearly ought to be removed. Maybe you can give it a look over from time to time. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:37, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

This thread has kinda moved on from this, but this felt like the best place to mention it. I reloaded the [[Mason]] pic and it's still having a fit. I'm not sure what's up. Would it help if I maybe re-created it and reloaded it? I've got the original, uncropped screen shot still and it wouldn't be hard to recrop. Is it worth trying? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:39, 4 October 2005 (EDT)

==Spoiler Policy==

I'm concerned that the discussion and vote on [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy]] have wide participation, so as to provide a legitimate result. Would you consider advertising it in the site notice for a week or so? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:53, 31 August 2005 (EDT)
: Will do. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:07, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

==Ban request==
Joe, I humbly request that you ban user "Philwelch", if you see fit to do so. On Wikipedia.org, he keeps flaming the Cylon and Battlestar Galactica pages, adamant in the belief that "12 Cylon Models" includes Centurions leaving only 11 humanoid ones (nonesensical). He's counterproductive and often makes unsubstantiated jumps of logic. Please, instill the fear of God in him.--Ricimer 31 Aug, 2005

:Oh, let him be. It's not like the issue is cut and dried. Can't we just make a note of the controversy and leave it? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:58, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:: Right now, my decision echos Peter's -- make a note of the issue regarding the ambiguity of the statement (because there is ambiguity present in that "12 Models of Cylon" statement) and ensure that all POVs and speculations are treated accordingly and with respect. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:39, 2 September 2005 (EDT)

Joe, I retract any desire to have Philwelch banned: although I have heartily disagreed with him in the past on issues, he is nonetheless an excellent poster contributing much valuable information, as well as policing the wikipedia entries almost as fast as I do against malicious edits (this one guy persistently wanted the Cylon page to say that you can do the "Cylon voice" by speaking into a fan; that doesn't sound like a Cylon, you need a voice synthesizer, etc).

However, I realize I cannot request that someone be immediately banned, but I would like to suggest that you give ''warnings'' leading up to a banning if people make complaints. I would like to point out now that new user "Jzanjani" has proven fairly malicious and he isn't really contributing any valuable material in his edits; after which he has been joking in fits of arrogance that he will start "flame wars" here if they are changed. He's also been deleting my ''entire'' usertalk page (thanks to Peter Fargo for restoring it; I originally restored Jzanjani's talk page after he deleted it because I honestly thought he wasn't allowed to do that; I was unfamiliar with the wiki convention regarding this). He deserves a stern warning that this behavior could lead to banning. ---[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] October 7, 2005

: I must say. <sarcasm>I find the comment he left with his edit rather witty and cutting.</sarcasm> If you've not looked at it, it ''is'' amusing, especially considering that the damage has already been (so easily) undone. --[[User:Day|Day]] 13:05, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

: See my comments about this whole mess on the Cylons [[Talk:Cylons|Talk]] page. Both sides on this are going to an extreme, and need to cool down. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:06, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

:: I agree. Your mutually hostile behavior towards each other is not constructive or amusing, and as far as I can tell you both bear quite equal responsibility for provoking each other. Rather than resorting to rude pranks and ill-conceived attempts at intimidation, you must at least ''attempt'' civil conversation on the relevant talk pages. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:24, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

==Image Thumbs==
Can we change the background color of image thumbs to black? The yellow links don't show up very well against white, currently. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:04, 2 September 2005 (EDT)
: Planning on some cosmetic changes anyway. So I'll get right on it. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:29, 2 September 2005 (EDT)
:: I'd like to voice an opinion for dark grey or some shade. I think it's important to stand out against the black page background, but I agree the links are impossible to read. I'd been meditating on a proper solution for a couple days and dark grey doesn't entirely satisfy me, but it's better than either white or black. In my opinion, anyway. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:03, 2 September 2005 (EDT)
::: How about the red shade I've implemented? -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:04, 2 September 2005 (EDT)
:::: Hrm. Not what I'd expected, but not bad, either. The links are certainly readable now, and it fits more with the theme of the site, so I think it's a good call. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:17, 2 September 2005 (EDT)
While we're on the subject of changing link colors, do you think the dark blue color that's used in the navigational links at the top of BSwiki and for Wikipedia links could be lightened up a bit? They're kind of...dark. On a more subjective note, I think blue doesn't even fit in the red-yellow-on-black color scheme that you fine gentlemen have set up. I'm sure everyone else disagrees with this, clearly, but that's just my opinion. Regardless, they '''are''' just a tad too dark and don't show up very well against the black background.
:''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 16:42, 7 October 2005 (EDT)''

== Contents? ==

Joe... You may be messing with the contents boxes as I type this, but, for what it's worth, I liked them better on the left and not wrapped. If they stay right, we may have to reasses some of our aesthetic choices for character pages (or, actually, probably just edit the Character Data template to be left-aligned. It also bugs me that if there's not intro paragraph, the re line under the first topic and the red line un "Contents" don't line up in my browser. This is a small thing, I know. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:27, 2 September 2005 (EDT)

: How about if the TOC is organized horizontally instead of vertically...? The only reason I aligned it to the right was because of all that wasted whitespace, which annoyed me personally. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:36, 2 September 2005 (EDT)

:: Horizontally? I guess I'd have to see it. I can't imagine what that means. I don't know if I'll be checking back in before Monday, but you might just change in and see how people react. I kind of liked the white space, but--that's me. When you're looking at how the TOC looks, you might look at [[Lee Adama]] as well as non-character articles to see how it looks when put into play. --[[User:Day|Day]] 19:26, 2 September 2005 (EDT)

::: I '''strongly''' think you should revert them to the wikipedia monobook style. There was nothing wrong with them before. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:55, 2 September 2005 (EDT)

:::: Good points. I've reversed the change. Still, I believe that there's a lot of wasted space done with the TOC. Don't know if anyone else agrees, but I'd be willing to consider any suggestions. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:02, 2 September 2005 (EDT)

::::: Honestly, my opinion is that the guys at Wikipedia spend far more hours and energy agonizing over these things than we could ever put in. Short of a tasteful color scheme, my feeling is that we should put our energy into creating high-quality content here, not a signature web design. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:34, 2 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::: Speaking of web design, I don't know if you folks are in love with the red/black default color scheme, but I had to switch to the Monobook (wiki.org default) style. The red and black hurt my eyes, and if I couldn't switch it, I wouldn't have an account here at all. It almost turned me off in the first place, and I think it might keep people from contributing, especially anonymous contributors. Just my two cents. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 17:41, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

::::::: I know that some people aren't going to like the design, but it is unique to the Wiki. Perhaps, though, it should be indicated somewhere that users can change the skin at their discretion. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:57, 13 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::::: Maybe a button that says "switch to black on white screen", or something. I'm not sure if that's possible when the user isn't logged in, though. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 23:03, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

What do you think about giving the TOCs black backgrounds again? I thought that looked less imposing. The red does look good for the image thumbnails, though. (And I like the Red&Black, FWIW.) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:38, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

: I, too, would like a return to the black box with red border. Also, were I in charge, I'd lose the red line under the word Contents, but that's me. Then, if it were to float left, rather than not float, it might look much better... if people are into the whole floating thing. The Red and Black thing doesn't bother me. I really dislike looking at a lot of white, so I would rather not look at a black on white theme. Whenever I design some HTML, I tend to make the BG a lighter grey so I'm not bombarding my eyes with ''quite'' so many photons. ;) --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:31, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I floated the TOC in [[The Twelve Colonies]], to good effect, I think (although I'm not certain it shouldn't be on the right). However, this is only really appropriate for articles with tall and narrow TOCs. Wikipedia uses templates <nowiki>{{TOCright}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{TOCleft}}</nowiki> for floating on a per-article basis. It might be interesting to bring those over, but in the meantime it's also possible to use the construct <nowiki><div style="float:left">__TOC__</div></nowiki>. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:06, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

== Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions ==

Joe. I went ahead and made the above-linked page. Over at the [[Battlestar Wiki:Characters|Characters]] project page, we got into a debate about verb tense. This would also be applicable for other articles, especially episode guides. There've got to be plenty of other things that would go on a [[:Category:Project Page|Project Page]] except that they apply to several projects (or all). If there's already something like this, then I apologize and just point me (and Peter and Colonial One) at it and we'll get to debating standards, etc. I felt I should point this page-creation out to you so that it might get mention in the little announce box thing when something is under discussion that's important and needs a significant consensus. Also, because you might be interested and you might like to weigh in on things. In fact, I think there might be a couple of topics on this very talk page that could be moved to the talk page of Standards and Conventions at your descretion. --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:14, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

== "New Message" problem ==
Hi Joe. [[User:Day|Day]] suggested I contact you about the problem I'm having with the "new message" message--It won't go away, even after I've checked my messages. He said that you've run into this problem before. Can you help me? Thanks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 17:33, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

:It's recurred for me as well, after you fixed it earlier. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:52, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

:: Ack. Did some research with the MediaWiki bugzilla, and I came up [http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3447 with this]. Try: http://www.battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Peter_Farago&action=purge. (For Fang Aili, use: http://www.battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Fang_Aili&action=purge.) See if that helps. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:55, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

::: Didn't work. I tried reloading and stuff; no dice. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 23:07, 13 September 2005 (EDT)
::: No dice. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:08, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

:::: I believe the problem is more to do with the "newtalk" flags being cached, if anything else, probably on server-level. This seems to be why some users have the problem, and why some do not. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll be beating that Leoben fellow into a bloody pulp... -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 10:20, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

== Template issue ==

At your convenience, could you pop over to [[Template talk:Twelve Colonies Series]] and try to help settle a dispute there? A cetrain user has started taking a proprietary attitude to articles he's created, which I think completely overrides the purpose of this site. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 22:46, 18 September 2005 (EDT)
:My contribution to the articles aside, my opinion is not worth less than yours. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:47, 18 September 2005 (EDT)
**I didn;t say you were worth less than me. However, it's interesting that you made the case that my opinion held less weight than yours because you'd added more to the article in question than I had...[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 22:52, 18 September 2005 (EDT)

==Image Floats==

When using the extended image markup to float an image left or right without a thumbnail, a red background gets left behind in my browser. At the moment I'm using <nowiki><div style="float:right;"></div></nowiki> tags to surround the image, which doesn't give me the problem, but the use of HTML is undesirable for various reasons. Do you know why this is happening, and whether or not it's fixable? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:38, 20 September 2005 (EDT)
: I'll check that issue out and get back to you. Thanks! -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:15, 20 September 2005 (EDT)

==Hosting==

If the cost of hosting is a hardship for you, have you considered joining [http://www.wikicities.com/ wikicities]? They host Memory Alpha, and don't currently have a BSG wiki. (Or is that not possible due to the Creative Commons / GFDL licensing issues?) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:32, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
: It isn't a hardship at all, actually. I just want to make the option available for people to donate financially, should they choose to do so, in the same way Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation asks for donations. Not that we are anywhere near the importance of Wikipedia, but if we can get people to donate to improve the Wiki, that'd be nice. :-) -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:09, 22 September 2005 (EDT)

== Quote-o-matic ==

Joe, would you mind weighing in in this discussion: [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions#The_Freakin'_Quote-o-Matic]]? Just so we better know how it works and can make a convention/standard and then go make things conform to it. Thanks. And feel free to immediately archive this once you've taken a look. No reason to clutter up your talk page for months. --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:52, 4 October 2005 (EDT)

==Jzanjani==

Although I find the idea of banning users or threatening to do so distasteful and heavy-handed, I must now join Ricimer in requesting some disciplinary action on your part against [[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]]. Since the above discussion, he has issued:
*A sarcastic and offensive "apology" posted to [[User talk:Ricimer]], which targeted Ricimer, Spencerian, Watcher and myself with an offensive gesture.
*[http://battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=User:Ricimer&oldid=15845 Vandalism] of Ricimer's user page.
Despite our best efforts to extend him the benefit of the doubt, and Ricimer's tactful disengagement, it is clear that he has no intention to stop his harassment. Ricimer is one of our oldest and best contributors, and deserves more respect than this. For his part, Jzanjani is clearly both intelligent and well-spoken when he chooses to be, but if we are to collaborate effecitvely he must end his contemptuous behavior toward his fellow wikipedians. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:42, 8 October 2005 (EDT)
: I concur. I know Ricimer's worth, and we all collectively remind him when he's being too hard on newbies, but we need our conservatives around here to keep ourselves in check. And, although Ricimer appeared to start it first, Jzanjani won't let it go, and appears to be continuing. A temporary ban to cool jets would be welcome. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:08, 8 October 2005 (EDT)

== Silly Pages ==

One thing that Jzanjani did do right yesterday that was quite funny to me was the interjection of a picture of a toaster on the Toaster talk page. I ran with it and did a little update to the [[Toaster]] page. Even Peter, our Concision Jihad "cleric" dug it and created a new category for future sillyness, although Ricimer is a little anal about accuracy. I added the new [[Numerology]] page as well to the catagory. I think the page really lightens up the place--and it's helped me laugh after all the fistfighting on the Wiki of late. How'd you like it, Joe? To note, not even Wikipedia escapes such levity: Note: [[Wikipedia:Extreme Ironing]] and [[Wikipedia:Chewbacca Defense]]. :) 12:15, 8 October 2005 (EDT)

===In Defense of Myself===

Although Farago has found the idea distasteful '''''and''''' heavy-handed, not simply to ban users but even merely to '''''threaten''''' to do so, he has shown his true colors by requesting to ban one who is perhaps the most well-humored and well-mannered contributor to this site since its establishment. If I may be rendered the honor to do so, I will briefly present a defense of my actions, which the community surely will find to be a reasonable account of the events which have been presented in this unfair and unjust campaign of slander.

:In answer to the first allegation, it is absolutely true that I wrote a concise apology - conformant to good manners - for whatever I might have done to offend Ricimer, and it is equally true that in an attempt to dispell the atmosphere of hostility that I posted a link to an off-site picture (which is still active) which I had assumed would be received in good humor. Since that time I have learned that this was a mistake, since certain contributors to this site have demonstrated to me consistently that they are the most serious and humorless individuals, to the extent that even a photograph of a child may be considered offensive. Furthermore, I would venture to say that Farago is something of an egoist in assuming that a formal apology posted to a specific member's talk page, worded in the second-person, and only mentioning in passing the four members Farago lists as "targets," might possibly be directed to him. My final note on this reprehensible mischaracterization is that Ricimer himself, in a comment posted directly below this scandalous libel directed toward him, writes that he has no problem with my spritely post and found it merely "off-color." In so doing, Ricimer has demonstrated a most healthy sense of humor, and I applaud him for receiving my jest in the appropriate fashion.

:In answer to the second allegation, I must again beg the case of humor which being absent in some individuals of BattlestarWiki, excepting, ironically, Ricimer, and certainly absent in the person of Farago, has produced this most unjust allegation. Farago fails to mention that my second playful attempt at humor came after Ricimer utterly deleted a screenful of my unworthy - though hard-won - posted content in a single edit. The subsequent so-called "vandalism" of Ricimer's user page involved nothing more than the posting of a photograph of a strapping gentleman smiling into the camera. This again was done in the spirit of dousing the fire with water, and my only misstep in so doing was to presume that future readers had a heartbeat. Since the point was quite lost on our poor Farago, let me propose only that the gentleman in the picture might resemble Ricimer in that he "chomps" newbies - an admission which Farago and several others have made, and evidence of which remains extant in the talk pages. However, let us consider as hypothesis that some of our less well-adjusted colleagues may find the photograph offensive, or at least surprising - why then hasn't Ricimer himself posted an objection to my behavior? If my actions were so egregiously offensive to Ricimer, and considering his demonstrated pugnaciousness, he would most certainly have responded. Furthermore, why hasn't Farago raised an objection with an identical photograph which I have posted on '''''my own''''' user page? It is precisely the same photograph with the same dimensions, used in the same way on a user page, yet why hasn't Farago taken the trouble to cite it as another of my crimes? To conclude my arguments, I challenge Farago to prove satisfactorily that either of the two photographs are in any way offensive, since they depict neither nudity, nor any sort of obscenity of any kind, and are undeniably in good taste. In fact, I am so confident that these pictures are totally inoffensive that I provide for the reader [http://webspace.utexas.edu/joz59/funny_pics/fuck_soccer.jpg here] and [[User:Jzanjani|here]] links to these vulgar photographs as testimonial to my good upbringing and well-rounded, healthy character.

Although at this point I fear I may tire any reader who has progressed this far, not only for the wordiness of my arguments but also because they are so unnecessary, I must clear the air with my accuser, Farago himself. He has demonstrated the most anti-social tendencies with myself and with others. In my personal communications with him he has not failed to mirror the humorless and cold individual he depicts here. I may vouch for Spencerian's good humor, because at my suggestion he changed the format of the [[Toaster]] page to its current state. If I may be permitted the rudeness, let me also say that it was I who found the picture of the toaster and suggested its use. I may also vouch for Watcher because he has privately confided that he found my apology - that intolerable and libelous attack on Ricimer! - refreshing and well-written. I daresay that I even consider Ricimer a brother and fellow Christian of God's fair Earth. If I had the chance to meet them in person, I would thank all these men heartily, and clap them on the back soundly for the good fortune that I am in their company, and surely offer them cigars to smoke and whiskey to drink in my parlor. However, I would be most uncomfortable and suspicious if Farago communicated his desire to smoke and drink with my fellows: he has jumped at every opportunity to strike me down and has mischaracterized all of my innocent jabs as transgressions. Furthermore he has demonstrated the most profound and disturbing - perhaps offensive - wiliness in his constant interjections in the friendly exchanges between myself and my friends. If it does not shock and stupefy the community, I venture even to say that Farago is bereft of humanity entirely and that the community should consider the possibility that Farago himself may be a Cylon infiltrator intending to weaken the base of any future human resistence. I ask that the allegations be dismissed as justly they should, and that we immediately '''''eject''''' Farago from the nearest airlock as a Humano-Cylon traitor!

::''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 12:22, 8 October 2005 (EDT)''

User:The Merovingian

2005-10-08T06:45:36Z

Jzanjani: Just helping you out, Ricimer

{{Character Data|
|photo=[[Image:Ricimer.jpg]]
|age= (a prime number: try to guess which one; I think you'll be pleasantly surprised)
|colony=Scorpion
|birthname= Magnifico Giganticus
|callsign=Ricimer
|death=Debatable
|parents=Unknown
|siblings=Unknown
|marital status=Unknown
|role="origin and purpose...still a total mystery"
|rank=SSG
|actor= Himself

}}

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? Ricimer knows...

User talk:Spencerian

2005-10-08T01:56:08Z

Jzanjani:

Transferred my basic bio from Wikipedia to here. To all of us BSG addicts: Praise the Lords of Kobol and pass the munitions... [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:52, 14 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Annililated three major stub pages today. Guess I'm all hyped up for Season 2's premiere today. Stop me before I de-stub again... [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:51, 15 Jul 2005 (EDT)

: [[Wikipedia:Destroy All Humans|Destroy All Humans]]!... erm, I mean stubs. :-) Yes, please keep on nuking all the stubs. Thanks! :-) -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:51, 15 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== Remember, Folks, This is Not Wikipedia ==

This is just my understanding, but BSG Wiki is not Wikipedia. As such, as we enter factual information about the episode, we also may add opinion, some commentary, and speculation as appropriate. This is definiitely different from Wikipedia where such Personal Point of View comments are not acceptable. One thing that we must remember not to do is to get all bent out of shape and delete an opposing view simply because we have a different interpretation of events. One suggestion is to add a counterpoint with sufficient reasons or evidence that support your view. This is fiction, and I doubt that RDM will explain everything (where's the fun if he did that?), so we're left to figure things out on our own. So, don't hack and slash, but if you find my posts (or others) are just too wordy or prose-ridden, do what you feel is right, of course... [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:45, 4 Aug 2005 (EDT)

== Episode Project Page? ==

Heya. I heard you were particularly active in writing the episode articles. If so, you might consider collaborating with some other users that are, too, to create a project page for episodes. [[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] created a [[Battlestar Wiki:Characters|Characters Project Page]] for better planning and communication. I can't speak from experience, but it might be good to make note of various conventions or templates or whatever used for episode articles. If you decide to put this together, I made a [[:Category:Project Page|Project Page]] category so we could keep track of the various convention & template pages. I don't mean to tell anyone what to do. Just thought I'd draw your attention to this. --[[User:Day|Day]] 07:18, 31 August 2005 (EDT)
:Hi, Day. Thanks for letting me know of this tool. I'm more of a major article content writer than article creator, so I've usually not done much in page formatting and creation. I've generally followed the lead of Peter and others who obviously have stronger wiki formatting skills, then apply or update any new material on pages that use their templates. Collectively the wiki has improved on formatting and templates, but yes, many early character bios must be cleaned up, and I'll get to Peter's character project page and your general project page to lend a hand. Same for the episode pages as applicable, although most of the second season pages appear to be in fair shape. Excellent idea. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:03, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

== Ellen Tigh ==

I have a question for you concerning your recent edit to [[Ellen Tigh]] at the bottom of [[Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Standards_and_Conventions]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:33, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

== Mercury-Class Battlestar ==

Since we have gone back and forth once, I wanted to talk to you about it here. Stating that a battlestar is a Mercury-Class Battlestar, even if it happens to be pegasus, is not a spoiler. It is unnecessary to be in spoiler tags. We don't state anything else about it.

:Okay, but would that be of plausible interest to anyone who explicitly did ''not'' want to have that episode spoiled? It's not as if the Mercury class has ever been mentioned before. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 21 September 2005 (EDT)

::I understand what you're saying about not spoiling it for someone who has no interest in knowing, however this isn't stating any IMPORTANT information that would lead you to explicitly know anything. People who are newbs to BSG wouldn't know if the Pegasus ship has been featured before, if it was going to return, or how many episodes away its return is. And BSG veterans may know about Pegasus, but wouldn't explicitly know when or if the Pegasus were going to return. Therefore, I submit this is not a spoiler. However, this is specific case is not a major concern for me, the episode is two days away anyways, but rather the principle of the issue at hand because it might arise again and I'd like a consensus on the issue. I believe that small splices of info that couldn't explicitly give away plot twists are not spoilers and therefore in the interest of not needlessly continually reediting pages that should not have been editted to begin with we should treat trivial information that does not reveal plot are not spoilers. In conclusion I will go to our future spoiler policy's definition of a spoiler:In fandom parlance, a "spoiler" is one or more pieces of information that may spoil the user's interest in an ongoing series. If anyone can give me a couple of reasonable explanations as to how the fact Pegasus is a Mercury-Class Battlestar is a spoiler and if a majority of people agree that trivial information not revealing plot but mention future events/items/characters I will resign the issue.--Zareck Rocks 18:50, 21 September 2005 (EDT)

:::The reason that "Mercury-Class" is a spoiler is because it a term not told in any aired episode. We only know "Galactica" but have not been told yet what ''her'' class was, much less that of the others. We know (at least until "Pegasus") only that there were other more advanced battlestars. Thus, "Mercury-Class" is a spoiler. The name "Pegasus" is also one, but we got that an episode name and it's not worth protecting that matter. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:58, 21 September 2005 (EDT)

:::I'm inclined to state that any specifics regarding an upcoming episode that hasn't been directly outlined in say...TV Guide or the Sci-Fi channel's own description would amount to a spoiler. I agree that the class of Battlestar is probably a trivial detail but as the episode has not aired we should leave it out until it does. The only exception to this would be where the specific revealed happened to be part of the teaser trailer airing to promote the episode.--[[User:Feldspar|Feldspar]] 19:06, 21 September 2005 (EDT)

:::: This is a spoiler according to the not-yet-instituted policy. It may be a kind of miniscule, nit pickey, lame spoiler, but it fulfills the following:<br/>
::::: ''Therefore a spoiler is one or more pieces of information from an episode that has yet to air'' anywhere ''in the world.''<br/>
:::: This is just a technicality, but if you're gonna make a rule, you should follow it all the way. Maybe this is an indication that the proposed policy is a bit strict. I dunno. That's my opinion, though. Anyway, we're not bound by the proposed one yet. For another couple days or something, anyway. I think. I can't keep things perfectly straight. --[[User:Day|Day]] 19:51, 21 September 2005 (EDT)

:::I added my comments to the main policy page, but Peter said what I have said. ANY connecting information leads to a spoiler if it hasn't been announced officially or aired. We don't rate the importance of information as to whether it's a "big" or "small" spoiler. If it's not aired yet, it's gotta have a tag, but at least it can be added to the page. My only failure was to make whole pages as a spoiler instead of using the spoiltext tag more judgiciously--and I was corrected by others. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:58, 21 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::IMO, the policy is sound, and leaves no room for interpretation. This is a good thing, since it will keep us from having exegetical fights instead of wiki-ing. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:54, 21 September 2005 (EDT)

: See [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy/Compromise]] for my reply. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:48, 21 September 2005 (EDT)

== Laird's first name. ==

Hello there. I am sorry for the confusion that I may have caused you. I personally did not find the name "Peter Laird" on any external site, I found it here on Battlestar Wiki on the [[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]] episode page. Upon checking the history of the page it appears that a user by the name of [[User:Arjuna|Arjuna]] updated the page giving first names to both Chief Laird and Lieutenant Throne. Clearly, I mistakenly believed these to be official names and proceeded to edit Laird’s profile page oblivious to the disputed and most likely non-canonical nature of his first name. Next time I shall be sure to check the validity of a piece before I assume it is a fact, however the person you should really be questioning here is [[User:Arjuna|Arjuna]], he/she appears to be the source of these false names.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention though, I appreciate it.

[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 06:02, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

: Thanks, Kahran. We've all done that here, and it's nothing to worry about. The strongest contributors here are also the biggest sticklers to sources, and prefer less to more when it comes to information. Like Galen, Laird's name is probably ''going'' to be canon, just not yet. And, with BSG's popularity, more and more enthusiasts like you and I will want to put in their 2 cents, but need to know what's official and not. I'll check with Arjuna on the source if there is one. Thanks for responding back! [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:13, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

== The Battlestar Disambiguation Pages-What Was Done? ==

After talking with Peter on the general Battlestar page, we agreed that that page needed to be broken up and successive pages to keep the confusion down between TOS and RDM information. See the new [[Battlestar]] page, which is now a disambig page to lead you to the several pages where the data is logically broken up.

The only problem is the original [[Galactica]] page, which should have been moved to [[Galactica (RDM)]]. Mistakenly I created that Galactica (RDM) page instead. The Galactica page could be another disambig page with links to the RDM, TOS, and Video game areas, but I stopped there (enough damage) to let Joe think of the best way to make this work.

The biggest change involves the general [[Galactica]] link, which should be [[Galactica (RDM)]] by default unless a TOS page discussses it, in which case [[Galactica (TOS)]] should be used. Please flame away: it's what the page is for. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:51, 30 September 2005 (EDT)

== Toaster Pic ==

Spencerian, I'm thinking of uploading an actual picture of a toaster for the "Toaster" page, or at least I'd like to see one there. If you check out the [[Talk:Toaster]] page, I've linked to one I think looks pretty good. I understand you're probably going to bust a tantrum because it's not appropriate or something, but I think it'll be a bit of humor that'll break a few smiles here and there. Just tell me what you think.
:''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 21:56, 7 October 2005 (EDT)''

Talk:Toaster/Archive 1

2005-10-08T01:45:37Z

Jzanjani: toaster pic found! this'll be awesome

Does anybody think we should upload an image of an actual toaster to illustrate this page? I know a lot of the contributors here seem to be fairly serious individuals, but if someone could do it I think it would be cute. Just a pic of an actual chrome toaster - it'll be great, I think.
:''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 21:41, 7 October 2005 (EDT)''

I've found one that's nondescript enough:

http://www.flatrock.org.nz/wolf/images/toaster.gif

Spencerian, do what you've got to do!
:''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 21:45, 7 October 2005 (EDT)''

Talk:Toaster/Archive 1

2005-10-08T01:41:35Z

Jzanjani: toaster picture?

Talk:Cylons (RDM)/Archive 1

2005-10-08T01:32:20Z

Jzanjani: /* On Cylon Tactics */

Doesn't the "twelve models of Cylons" that Six referred to mean only twelve humanoid models, not metal kinds as well?

If she really meant "twelve kinds of Cylons altogether" then you'd have to include Old/New Raiders, Recon Drones, and Old/New basestars - leaving only one more type of Cylon to be discovered. And with RDM saying that "two new Cylons will be revealed this [second] season," that's obviously not the case. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 19:39, 15 Apr 2005 (EDT)

: The consensus seems to be that there are 12 models of Humano-Cylon. Although I do understand the confusion, particularly in light of the note that Adama read at the end of the [[Mini-Series]]. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:57, 15 Apr 2005 (EDT)

==Zarek Rocks' Edits==

[[User:Zarek Rocks|Zarek Rocks]] added the following on August 8th:

:In the reimagined series, Cylons are a creation of man, used primarily for dangerous work. However, they were eventually intended to be used by humans for all production continuing the colonial's [[Golden Age]]. The Cylons [[Cylon War|revolted]] against their masters, eventually [[Cylon Attack|killing off]] all but approximately 50,000 humans. Their creation for enslavement is likely their reasoning for choosing the name for their species. Cyone is a character from Greek mythology that was raped by her father and then sacrificed him on an altar in a nearby temple. The obvious parallels to the human-cylon relationship, the Colonial's religion being closely similar to the Greek Gods, and the similarity in the spelling: cylon cyone are all conclusive evidence of the origin of the name cylon.

I have a number of concerns:

#What is this [[Golden Age]] to which you refer?
#The name [[Cylon]] comes from the [[TOS|original series]], in which the Cylons are the robotic creations of a race of malevolent lizard-men. Allthough the Cyone/Cylon naming coincidence is a tempting avenue of thought, it would probably be better to note it as an odd coincidence than claim it as "conclusive evidence" for a name which antedates this version of Cylon history by over twenty-five years.
#I can't find more than a one-sentence reference to a character from greek mythology by the name of "Cyone" anywhere online. Do you have a reference to the legend that you could point us at for discussion?

Please leave the previous content intact when you make future additions unless you find it impertinent, redundant or factually innacurate.

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:21, 10 Aug 2005 (EDT)

:I apologize for my lack of background for my articles. I must confess to being much more concerned with the re-imagined BSG and so therefore have been using it as a reference point for my articles. TOS and the re-imagined series have been so different that you almost can't connect the two because of the many differences. Everyone will agree that the characters are completely different, as has the background info. The Golden Age I refer to takes place before the Cylon War. The article I used for this was found on this site, [[History of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol]]. I realize this is not canon, but it seems close enough to be considered factual. Besides, the two series are so different one could not find a 100% bulletproof article anyways, unless it referred to a tiny specific (and probably therefore uninteresting) piece of information anyways. The one sentence online you refer to about Cyone, I assume is on the same website I found it, http://www.pantheon.org/. This is a reliable website that is valid to cite in reference to Greek mythology; the information on it is reliable and in depth enough to be quoted. Please let me know if you have any questions, as I realize all of your previous ones were completely valid.

::I completely agree about the re-imagined series having very little to do with (and being far superior to) the original, but about the only thing that is clearly sourced from the original are the various character and technology names. I find the Encyclopedia Mythica entry to be a bit lacking to be worth noting here, but if you feel compelled it would be perfectly fine to note the coincidence in a "Notes" section

::P.S., to sign your comments with your name and a time stamp, use this string: <nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki>. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:37, 10 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Thanks, and I agree the Re-imagined series is far superior. SHould we restore my edits to the article or shall we leave as is? [[--Zareck Rocks 18:49, 10 Aug 2005 (EDT)--]]

:I don't personally feel it's worthwhile, but as I said above, there would be nothing wrong with pointing out the coincidence along with a citation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:05, 11 Aug 2005 (EDT)

==The Late Unpleasantness==

I'll begin. Since philwelch admits that the various Cylon craft may not count as Cylon models, it seems that the main point of controversy is whether to count the two models of Cylon Centurion. Would it be acceptable to both of you to make a note concerning the ambiguity of both the "twelve models of cylon" note and Six's assertion that "those models [the chrome toasters] still have their uses", and provide separate counts depending on which assumptions are made?

After this sticking point has been resolved, I recommend restoring the non-controversial edits lost in Ricimer's recent revert. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:49, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

:I don't count the earlier model because it's a 40 year old model and there's no evidence that it exists anymore. Anyway, I've made a compromise edit. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 13:10, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

::Philwelch's disclaimer in the "Twelve Models" section seems like a balanced reading to me, based on the available information. Ricimer, do you still object to it? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:05, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

:::Philwelch I must commend you on your recent excellent compromise edit. The main point of contention I had is that sometimes on messageboards you see people that say that "there are 12 Cylons, so counting centurions there must be 11 "human-looking" Cylons. However, I think there are 12 models of humanoid Cylon, as well as the Centurion model. I don't know if Raiders, etc. count as a "model" or not, unless they say that in a later episode. I thought it ambiguous as to how "organic" they are; i.e. their internal muscles, ligaments, nerves were more obviously synthetic; they looked like artificial skin and muscle like you'd use on burn victims. I mean, they looked more obviously silicon-based on not vat-grown; the line were "organic" and "machine" blurs (if we consider animals to be just a complex bio-chemical machine). Anyway, I really like the current edit. ---Ricimer. 1 Sept, 2005

That's called "limited special effects", I think. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:18, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

:::: Something to take note. When Boomer recently told Gaius Baltar that there were 8 more cylons within the fleet, that added up to the 12 stated long ago by Number 6. The fleet has seen Boomer, Number 6 (as Godfrey), Darol, and Leoben Conoy. They hadn't seen the 8 other models (who logically would only have 1 of each in the fleet). We've discussed D'anna Biers and we know about Simon both will show up. In the recent show, Baltar was talking to Six about other cylons aboard- that they could be anywhere. My tv was a bit dark but I swear I saw Simon pass by in military khakis when he said that. As for Ellen Tigh, look at the show where Baltar says "She's green!" when he checks her out in the test. If you zoom into the computer, it does show green. Then again, everybody was there to watch his testing so he may have covered it up. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]

Baltar altered the program when he tested Ellen. Anyway, you're assuming (a) that Boomer was right (b) There's only 1 of each (c) Godfrey isn't there. The question was "how many Cylons are left in the fleet?" and the answer was "eight". Godfrey isn't known to be a Cylon quite yet and may be in hiding. Also, why can't there be Cylon "identical twins" or Cylon doppelgangers? And how do we know Boomer is a reliable source? You're making a lot of assumptions—assumptions that I think can be abandoned just as easily if not more easily than the assumption that there are only twelve Cylon models. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:18, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

By the way, Peter's more recent edits to the article pretty much turned my exposition of the issue into an argument for his side. I went ahead and fixed it, and right now it's just an examination of all the related assumptions one could make regarding this issue and how they apply. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:51, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

:I don't really have a "side", Phil, and frankly if you and Ricimer agree on your previous version, I don't mind if you revert it. I think the current exposition here is rather monstrous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:28, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

It seemed a little biased to me, and removed a bunch of stuff that didn't need to be. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 21:33, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

I'll just say I'd like to think that afer Adama read the note, he had a similar debate: 12 Human models, or 12 all together. Life imitates Art. Sorta. [[User:Colonial one|Colonial one]] 21:47, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

Philwelch and I have agreed that this argument is best handled in its own article, so he's moved it to [[Twelve Cylon Models]]. As my main concern here is for accuracy and concision, I'm content to stay out of the debate as long as it doesn't spill over into less interpretive pages. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:07, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

==On Cylon Tactics==

I would like to open a section on Cylon tactics in this article. I was inspired to do this by the Humano-Cylon page: I feel that it fails to communicate the fundamental, asymmetric threat the Cylons pose to the Fleet. I'll start with this topic, others are welcome to contribute. Maybe eventually we can have a whole page on Cylon methods of war. It also grieves me to say that any objections or criticism will not be taken in good humor, will be interpreted as an attack on my person and may very well initiate a flame war, so please do not post them.

::Just kidding :) ''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 01:18, 7 October 2005 (EDT)''

:::I disagree ;) --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 02:08, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: :-| ''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 03:48, 7 October 2005 (EDT)''

::::: "Your day is coming, laughing boy" (Col. Tigh to Tom Zarek). ---[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] October 7, 2005

Ricimer, Jzanjani: This message is generally directed to you, but others should be reminded of this as well. Jzanjani's addition to the page is a welcome and insightful breakdown of what we all knew but have not put down to words with such eloquence. I have returned the page (with edits) to Jzanjani's last edit, reverting Ricimer's full removal. It is highly customary on this Wiki never to fully remove anyone's edits, as we go by the logical presumption that everyone has something beneficial to add to the page. Jzanjani's latest contribution certainly fits this.

When I encounter an edit that does not seem appropriate to either location within or in the article, I attempt to blend in the contribution, which forces me to see the contribution as a puzzle piece that should fit. If the "piece" does not fit, then I reject the edit, but always give a reason in my edit comment or in Talk as I do here. Ricimer, I do not explicitly center you out on this as we all are guilty of such things from time to time. However, I have personally monitored your lashings between Jzanjani. Anonymity on a site like this does not authorize any of us (Jzanjani included) to be rude or assume sole interpretation of the worth of a contribution (as you had done with this last edit). Besides, such a large contribution should be seen by the collective before such a massive deletion.

As we all know, such contributions take a lot of time, and odds are that that time was spent in good intent. While technically allowable, striking out such a large contribution moments after its post is insulting to the contributor since the collective hadn't a chance to chime in. Please restrain from direct attacks (as this was something I could interpret as nothing less), refresh yourself on the Wiki's standards and policies, and continue the insightful edits and contributions you've made such as your Battle pages. Just because BSG is a Wiki about humans that screw themselves over doesn't mean we have to emulate that here. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:38, 7 October 2005 (EDT)
:I see ---Ricimer, October 7, 2005
:Well put, Spencerian. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:28, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

=== Notes for future edits ===

*'''Subornation''', or '''suborn''', is a real word meaning:
:<tt>to induce a person to conduct an unlawful act </tt>
::(see [http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=suborn here])
*'''Subordination''', or '''subordinate''' is a distinct word meaning:
:<tt>1. Belonging to a lower or inferior class or rank; secondary.
:2. Subject to the authority or control of another.</tt>
::(see [http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=subordinate here])
*When I'm discussing the number of Humano-Cylons revealed as such, I'm discussing it from the perspective of the human beings in the Fleet and Galactica. Clearly they know of Doral, Conoy, and Valerii. I think it's safe to assume Starbuck has filled the appropriate people in on Simon. They may or may not suspect Number Six, but they definitely do ''not'' know of D'anna Biers. So Galactica's security are on the look-out for five total known Cylon models - the rest (whether that's seven or zero I'll leave to you guys) have yet to be revealed.

==Cleanup==

Do people like the format of the Twelve Colonies series as it stands? I think that the various Cylon articles good deal with a good bit of cleanup and compartmentalization along those lines, with a template linking various articles together. I think we can do much better on Cylon religion, and have certainly received enough information throughout the series (Through Leoben and others) to make a full article of it. Cylon military hardware and tactics could also be spun off. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:40, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

: In my quest to make the Wiki an equally strong TOS resource, I am moving this page to Cylons (RDM) and creating a disambig page for "Cylons" with a redirect from "Cylon". I've already created a Cylon (TOS) page and copied some great data, kudos to Wikipedia. I'd like to disambig the TOS and RDM Twelve Colonies somehow, yes, and clean it up for this article (which I won't tamper with at the moment). I agree that there's more than enough data to make separate articles for Cylon religion, tech stats and tactics. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:49, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

::Suggested plan:
::*Cylon Models (incl. original centurion (museum scene), centurions, content from humano-cylon)
::*Cylon Religion (to be written)
::*Cylon Spacecraft (merge content from relevant articles)
::*Cylon Tactics (Jzanjani's comments)
::Anything else? I'm not sure whether merging the various spacecraft articles is the best idea, although they are very short. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:02, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

I think this would be a good idea; hopefully it'll pay off with more revelations as the series continues. I do have some concerns regarding the conjectural nature of the comments on Cylon "Evolution" and "Religion." There should be plenty of quotes from both Six and Valerii which could make a better section, perhaps even page, on Cylon religion, and I believe more emphasis should be placed on the ''monotheistic'' aspect of it to reflect that contrast in the show. As far as evolution goes, I haven't heard any mention of biological evolution in the show; there are mechanical Cylons and humanoid Cylon clones. This should be written down, there should be links to the corresponding articles, but as far as I can tell Cylons have nothing to do with biological evolution. As for the very valid comment on the glowing spine, don't we have a place for continuity fudges and such?

Cylons (RDM)

Talk:Louis Hoshi/Archive 1

2005-10-06T12:15:44Z

Jzanjani: /* Older Discussion */

== Delete Notification ==

As this character was neither mentioned nor seen on screen, we must assume that "Hoshi" may have been a character that existed in very early drafts of "[[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]" or may have been a character whose scenes were completely removed.

Thus, given that there is also no actor or actress listed for this character, I must assume that this entry is without worth and I have tagged it for deletion.

Since I know there is some debate over this page, I have decided that I will make the final decision on Monday, October 10th, since I do have a lingering question regarding the last edit by [[User:Kahran|Kahran]], in particular the comparison to Gaeta in terms of duties (as well as the question of gender classification): Kahran, where is the source to this information?

Kahran, if you can provide a source to this data that is verifiable, then I may keep the page online. Sources include URLs andscans of periodicals. So if this information can be provided, please post it on ''this'' talk page, and '''not''' on mine. Thanks! -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:36, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

: It says right at the bottom of the [http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2005/10/firstdetailsonthecaptainsh.shtml GateWorld] preview for the episode [[The Captain's Hand]], and I quote: "Guest characters include ...'''Hoshi''' ''(the Pegasus's version of Lt. Gaeta)''..."
-- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 04:57, 6 October 2005 (EDT)

== Older Discussion ==

Didn't Star Trek Enterprise have a petty officer named Hoshi, too?[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:47, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: Yes, actually... [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Hoshi_Sato Here's the entry at Memory Alpha.] Ironically, she is played by Linda Park, an Asian SF actress. No direct relation to Grace Park, however. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:42, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

:: should we ad this reference on the Episode Page. [[User:QX100|QX100]] 12:33, 17 Sep 2005 (EDT)

No. Linda Park was Japanese, Grace Park is Korean. These are two distinct things. That, and Lt. Hoshi on Enterpise was a complete non-entity, as were all of the other supporting characters. ---Ricimer, 17 Sept, 2005

Was this guy actually in the episode? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:43, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:Well, they didn't walk around and say the name of each of ''Pegasus' '' CIC crew, but it could have been the unamed tactical officer, or someone else. They might turn up in later episodes ---Ricimer, 24, Sept 2005

::I don't know why we should have an article for a character without a mention ''or'' an actor. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:55, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
***Then you shouldn't concern yourself about such articles. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:04, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::Perhaps you might try to enlighten me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:06, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::::: Seeing no reason to have articles about characters without mention or actor/-ress, isn't a good reason to ignore the creation of such articles. I mean--there's never a mention of Petty Officer Luke Skywalker. Neither do we know who plays his part. Maybe we should make a page about him, too. That example is a bit extreme, perhaps, but there's no source cited for this and, as a member of the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|Citation Jihad]], I'd like to see one. I think this page should go. Also, I still find the use of bullets rather than tabs to be disruptive formatting, which is to say it distracts my eye from reading the words, rather than helping. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:35, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

who said that linda park is japanese? park is a distinctly korean name.

Both Linda Park and Grace Park are South Korean actresses. Ensign Hoshi from ENT was a Japanese character.
:''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 08:15, 6 October 2005 (EDT)''

Talk:Louis Hoshi/Archive 1

2005-10-06T12:15:13Z

Jzanjani: /* Older Discussion */

== Delete Notification ==

As this character was neither mentioned nor seen on screen, we must assume that "Hoshi" may have been a character that existed in very early drafts of "[[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]" or may have been a character whose scenes were completely removed.

Thus, given that there is also no actor or actress listed for this character, I must assume that this entry is without worth and I have tagged it for deletion.

Since I know there is some debate over this page, I have decided that I will make the final decision on Monday, October 10th, since I do have a lingering question regarding the last edit by [[User:Kahran|Kahran]], in particular the comparison to Gaeta in terms of duties (as well as the question of gender classification): Kahran, where is the source to this information?

Kahran, if you can provide a source to this data that is verifiable, then I may keep the page online. Sources include URLs andscans of periodicals. So if this information can be provided, please post it on ''this'' talk page, and '''not''' on mine. Thanks! -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:36, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

: It says right at the bottom of the [http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2005/10/firstdetailsonthecaptainsh.shtml GateWorld] preview for the episode [[The Captain's Hand]], and I quote: "Guest characters include ...'''Hoshi''' ''(the Pegasus's version of Lt. Gaeta)''..."
-- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 04:57, 6 October 2005 (EDT)

== Older Discussion ==

Didn't Star Trek Enterprise have a petty officer named Hoshi, too?[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:47, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: Yes, actually... [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Hoshi_Sato Here's the entry at Memory Alpha.] Ironically, she is played by Linda Park, an Asian SF actress. No direct relation to Grace Park, however. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:42, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

:: should we ad this reference on the Episode Page. [[User:QX100|QX100]] 12:33, 17 Sep 2005 (EDT)

No. Linda Park was Japanese, Grace Park is Korean. These are two distinct things. That, and Lt. Hoshi on Enterpise was a complete non-entity, as were all of the other supporting characters. ---Ricimer, 17 Sept, 2005

Was this guy actually in the episode? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:43, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:Well, they didn't walk around and say the name of each of ''Pegasus' '' CIC crew, but it could have been the unamed tactical officer, or someone else. They might turn up in later episodes ---Ricimer, 24, Sept 2005

::I don't know why we should have an article for a character without a mention ''or'' an actor. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:55, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
***Then you shouldn't concern yourself about such articles. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:04, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::Perhaps you might try to enlighten me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:06, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::::: Seeing no reason to have articles about characters without mention or actor/-ress, isn't a good reason to ignore the creation of such articles. I mean--there's never a mention of Petty Officer Luke Skywalker. Neither do we know who plays his part. Maybe we should make a page about him, too. That example is a bit extreme, perhaps, but there's no source cited for this and, as a member of the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|Citation Jihad]], I'd like to see one. I think this page should go. Also, I still find the use of bullets rather than tabs to be disruptive formatting, which is to say it distracts my eye from reading the words, rather than helping. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:35, 3 October 2005 (EDT)

who said that linda park is japanese? park is a distinctly korean name.

Both Linda Park and Grace Park are South Korean actresses. Ensign Hoshi from ENT was a Japanese character.
:'[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 08:15, 6 October 2005 (EDT)'

User talk:Jzanjani

Greetings, Jzanjani. I welcome you to the battlestar wiki and want you to know that I appreciate your desire to contribute here. However, your edits to this article baffle me. At present, it has been meticulously arranged to provide the most comprehensive information possible in an objective, well-cited manner with separate sections for interpretation and commentary. If you feel this layout is mistaken, or that there's information which needs to be incuded in this article which we've missed, I would like you to make your case here, on the talk page, before comitting another revision. Thank you for your consideration. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:03, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

==On the Format of Character Quotes==

I think we should agree on a standard format for character quotes. If you look up similar pages to this one on other Wiki databases, for example [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Babylon_5 this one] on Babylon 5, you can see they have a much more attractive quote format. Personally, I find the following quote format to be most attractive:

:"That thing put two rounds into my father's chest!" - ''[[Lee Adama|Captain Lee "Apollo" Adama]], "[[Home, Part I]]"''

or, more directly:

:<tt>Indent, Double Quote, QUOTATION, /Double Quote, dash, italic, NAME, comma, Double Quote, EPISODE, /Double Quote, /italic</tt>

I'm not sure if this comment should be somewhere else, but I think the Sacred Scrolls article in particular could definitely use some cleanup.
:[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 16:08, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

Talk:Earth/Archive 1

2005-10-05T19:51:39Z

Jzanjani: /* Concision */

==Concision==

[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]], your summary of events here is very well written, but I wonder if it's necessary to go into such detail on this article - the topic is Earth, not Roslin's various visions. Would you mind if I tried to make it a little more concise? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:01, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

:I agree, this is on the Line. Further, this page should *definately* be turned into a disambiguation page and split into two separate ones: one for TOS Earth, one for RDM Earth. RDM's Earth could be entirely different from the old one. ---Ricimer, October 5, 2005

::Ricimer, I think I agree with your statement about colonial FTL drive, but I thought it would be prudent to point out that colonial sublight engines also run on Tylium - c.f. Apollo's ready room comments in "Resistance". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:15, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

I think we should avoid splitting pages according to different series, especially when the amount of information we have on the subject is so sparse. All the information we have on Earth easily fits into one screen of properly formatted text. I'm not sure if anyone else notices it, but Wiki pages don't exactly load quickly, and I think the community should try to avoid excessive compartmentalization as much as possible. [[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 15:51, 5 October 2005 (EDT)

Sacred Scrolls

2005-10-05T19:50:42Z

Jzanjani: Indenting Quotes

The '''Sacred Scrolls''' are a set of writings the form the basis of [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies|Colonial religion]], a polytheistic faith resembling the legends of ancient Greece. The scrolls record much of the alleged history of humanity, including life on [[Kobol]] before the great exodus, and the legend of [[Earth]]. Portions of the scrolls are used in religious ceremonies, such as the Service of the Dead ([[Mini-Series]], [[Act of Contrition]]).

Most notable among the Sacred Scrolls is the Book of Pythia, also referred to as the Pythian Prophecy. Written 3,600 years ago by the oracle [[Pythia]], they are believed by some to foretell the current exodus from the [[Twelve Colonies]].

==Contents==
The contents of the Sacred Scrolls have only been revealed to us in glimpses, through brief quotes, paraphrases and explanations throughout the series. This section serves to catalog those snippets, and is followed by more detailed analysis.

===The Book of Pythia===
:'''Roslin:''' Who is Pythia?<br>'''Elosha:''' One of the oracles in the sacred scrolls. 3,600 years ago. Pythia wrote about the exile and rebirth of the human race. ([[The Hand of God]])

====The Cycle of Time====
:'''Leoben:''' ''"All this has happened before, and all of it will happen again."'' ([[Flesh and Bone]])

:'''Six:''' ''"All this has happened before, and all this will happen again."'' ([[The Hand of God]])

:'''Roslin:''' If you believe in the gods, then you believe in the cycle of time that we are all playing our parts in a story that is told again, and again, and again throughout eternity. ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]])

====The Dying Leader====
:'''Elosha:''' ''"And the lords anointed a leader to guide the Caravan of the Heavens to their new homeland."'' ([[The Hand of God]])

:'''Elosha:''' She also wrote that the new leader suffered a wasting disease and would not live to enter the new land. ([[The Hand of God]])

:'''Roslin:''' The scriptures tell us a dying leader lead humanity to the promised land. ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]])

====A Vision of Serpents====
:'''Elosha:''' ''"And unto the leader they gave a vision of serpents numbering two and ten, as a sign of things to come."'' ([[The Hand of God]])

====The Serpents Lead the People Into Battle?====
:'''Six:''' ''"Led by serpents numbering two and ten..."'' (fragment) ([[The Hand of God]])

====A Confrontation at the Home of the Gods====
:'''Six:''' ''"Though the outcome favored the few, it led to a confrontation at the home of the gods."'' ([[The Hand of God]])

====The Lower Demon====
:'''Elosha:''' The scrolls of Pythia do speak of a lower demon, who helped the people in a time of crisis. ([[Home, Part I]])

====The Blaze and the High Road====
:'''Elosha:''' ''"And the blaze pursued them, and the people of Kobol had a choice. To board the great ship, or take the high road through the rocky ridge."''<br>
:'''Boomer (continuing):''' ''"And the body of each tribe's leader was offered to the gods in the tomb of Athena."'' And the great ship was the galleon that departed from here, where we're standing. And it took the founders of the thirteen colonies to their destiny. And those that didn't board the galleon took the high road, a rocky ridge that lead to the tomb. ([[Home, Part I]])

:'''Elosha:''' The path is supposed to be marked by gravestones. ([[Home, Part I]])

====The Gates of Hera====
:'''Boomer:''' That's the spot where your god supposedly stood and watched Athena throw herself down onto the rocks below, out of despair over the Exodus of the thirteen tribes. Athena's tomb, whoever or whatever she really was, is probably up there. ([[Home, Part II]])

====The Arrow of Apollo====
:'''Roslin:''' ''"And the Arrow of Apollo will open the Tomb of Athena."'' ([[Home, Part II]])

:'''Elosha:''' The scriptures tell us that Kobol points the way to Earth. ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]])

:'''Roslin:''' According to the scriptures, if we had the arrow of Apollo we could take it down to Kobol and we could use it to open the tomb of Athena and find our way to Earth. ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]])

====Kobol and the Blood Price====
:'''Adama:''' ''"And Zeus warned the leaders of the twelve tribes that any return to Kobol would exact a price in blood."'' ([[Home, Part II]])

===History===

====Pre-Exodus====
:'''Elosha:''' This place is Kobol... birthplace of mankind, where the gods and men lived in paradise until the exodus of the thirteen tribes. ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]])

====The Exodus====
:'''Elosha:''' How old are the ruins?<br>'''Billy:''' Well, we won't know for sure until we send a ground team, but the initial estimates have it on the order of approximately 2,000 years.<br>'''Elosha:''' That's around the time the thirteen tribes first left Kobol. ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]])

====The Thirteenth Tribe on Earth====
:'''Starbuck:''' The scriptures say that when the thirteenth tribe landed on Earth, they looked up into the heavens and they saw their twelve brothers. ([[Home, Part II]])

===Sayings===
:'''Adama:''' ''"The gods shall lift those who lift each other."'' ([[Home, Part II]])

==Notes==

The Cycle of Time is apparently a key component of Colonial theology. The notion of a circular progression of time (also known as [[Wikipedia:Eternal return|eternal return]] or eternal recurrence) is foreign to the ancient Greek religion of which Colonial religion are largely based, but it is a common theme in other religions. Some Hindus believe in an endless cycle of ages called [[Wikipedia:Yuga|Yugas]]. The ancient [[Wikipedia:Maya|Maya]] people, as well as the [[Wikipedia:Inca|Incas]] and [[Wikipedia:Aztec|Aztecs]] also believed in the circular nature of time. In philosophy, the [[Wikipedia:Stoics|Stoics]], a movement originating in ancient Greece, held the doctrine. In the nineteenth century, the doctrine appears in the writings of [[Wikipedia:Friedrich Nietzsche|Friedrich Nietzsche]] as a method of life-affirmation.

The book of Pythia, which contains or is identical to the Pythian Prophecy, was written 1,600 years before the exodus of the thirteen tribes from Kobol, and yet it apparently contains a detailed narrative of the events of the Exodus, and continues to be interpreted as a source of prophecy 2,000 years after its prophecies have (apparently) already been fulfilled. We may thus interpret the entire text as a prophecy, since the events it describes can be firmly dated to a point well after its text was written.

==Analysis==

===Correspondences===
Assuming the events following the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]] are a repetition of the events predicted by Pythia, and which came to pass centuries later, we can make use of the prophecy by first constructing a coherent historical narrative from them and then looking for correspondences with the events of the series.

*The Lower Demon is [[Sharon Valerii#Caprica Valerii|the Caprica copy of Sharon Valerii]]
*The Dying Leader is President [[Laura Roslin]]
*The "serpents numbering two and ten" are the [[Viper]]s of Strike Force Two in the [[Battle for the Tylium Asteroid]].
*The fleet defended by the [[Battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]'' is the "Caravan of the Heavens".
*The "price in blood" has been paid by various people including [[Crashdown]] and [[Elosha]].

===The "One Exodus" Interpretation===
This interpretation assumes that the timeline is recurring on a scale of 1,600 to 2,000 years, and the exodus from Kobol is directly parellel to the exodus from the Twelve Colonies. It also makes some correspondences in addition to those above:

*The "Blaze" identified by Sharon Valerii is an earlier parallel to the cylon attack. The hostile force is the Cylon [[God]].
*The Home of the Gods is [[Kobol]], and the people of [[Kobol]] are the [[Twelve Colonies]], in a somewhat metaphorical sense.

The timeline would procede thus:

#The people of Kobol lived in divine utopia with their gods.
#A hostile force - of which "the blaze" and the "lower demon" were parts - moves against the people of Kobol.
#The gods appoint a leader afflicted with a wasting disease to lead a "caravan of the heavens".
#The leader, with the aid of twelve "serpents", wins a perilous battle.
#The people make their way to the "home of the gods".
#Athena despairs and commits suicide.
#The leaders of the people are taken to the Tomb of Athena to be sacrificed to the remaining gods.
#The body of the people depart in a "galleon" for the colonies.
#Instructions are left to open the Tomb of Athena.
#Zeus warns against a return to Kobol.
#The twelve tribes settle on the [[Twelve Colonies]]. The thirteen tribe settles on [[Earth]].

Questions and Predictions:
*Can [[Earth]] be at once the "promised land" in this iteration and the last?
*Can we expect the deaths of the leaders of the tribes (the [[Quorum of Twelve]]?) to propitiate the Gods?
*Was the Galleon a part of the Caravan of the Heavens, or its destination?

This history is admittedly not especially coherent, but suggests the possibility of predicting at least some unfulfilled pieces of scripture. Another interpretation which deals with the repetition of historical events on a larger scale is offered below.

===The "Three Exodi" Interpretation===
This interpretation does not assume that the flight from the [[Twelve Colonies]] mirror the original exodus from [[Kobol]]. Instead, it assumes that these two exodi are part of the same event-continuum and posits a third, implied, exodus. Like the "One Exodus" interpretation, this one assumes that Pythia's prophecies have and will come true. Below is the proposed order of events for Pythia's prophecies:

#The people of Kobol live in divine utopia with their Gods.
#The "blaze" moves against the people of Kobol.
#The body of the people depart in a "galleon" for the colonies (the four inset items are roughly concurrent).
#*Athena despairs and commits suicide.
#*The leaders of the people are taken to the Tomb of Athena to be sacrificed to the remaining gods.
#*Instructions are left to open the Tomb of Athena.
#*Zeus warns against a return to Kobol.
#The twelve tribes settle on the [[Twelve Colonies]]. The thirteen tribe settles on [[Earth]].
#The Cylons decimate the Twelve Colonies (Whether this is prophesied is unknown, but this clearly happened).
#The gods appoint a leader afflicted with a wasting disease to lead a "caravan of the heavens".
#The leader, with the aid of twelve "serpents", wins a perilous battle.
#The people make their way to the "home of the gods".
#A "lower demon" helps the people of Kobol find the Tomb of Athena.

Note, too, that this is only a part of the story according to the "Three Exodi" interpretation. It assumes that passages not yet revealed in the series outline (however vaguely) the finding of Earth and some time spent there, and then an event that spurs a migration back to Kobol. In this interpretation, the people of Kobol are actually the remnants of [[the Twelve Colonies]], both their descendants and their ancestors. From there, the cycle starts again. The cycle is much longer in this interpretation (roughly 4,000 years, as opposed to roughly 1,600-2,000 years)

It is helpful to think of no particular part as the beginning. This is how the pictures of the constellations (only visible from Earth) would be accessible to the people of Kobol "before" any of them had been to Earth. It also explains how the Scrolls can speak about the fate of the Thirteenth Colony and yet be in the possession of people from the Twelve Colonies. In fact, when Pythia was writing about the events in the show, she might have been recording fairly-recent history, rather that far-future prophesy. The vagueness would be mostly due to nearly 4,000 years of linguistic drift, rather than due to the mists of prophecy.

Basically, this interpretation asserts a roughly 3,600-4,000 year cycle which can be illustrated by this crude flow-chart:<br\>
Kobol > Colonies, Colonies > Earth, Earth > Kobol

===General Questions===

*Are the [[Lords of Kobol]] still an agentive force in this iteration of the cycle?
*Who were the Lords of Kobol? The Caprica Valerii does not deny their existence, and the Tomb of Athena strongly attests to her life and death, but she does not believe they were gods. They were evidently distraught at the calamity which befell their people. Who was responsible for it, and why were the gods powerless to intervene?
*Did the people of the colonies leave Kobol with the assistance of the gods, or under their own power?
*What was the nature of the "galleon"? Was it a large STL colony ship? Did it have an FTL drive?

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Religion]][[Category:RDM]]

2005-10-05T06:59:55Z

Jzanjani: /* Battlestar Galactica, 2003 */

=== [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica, 2003]] ===

Earth is the alleged location of the [[13th Colony|Thirteenth Colony]], destination of the [[13th Tribe|Thirteenth Tribe]] of [[Kobol]], as attested in the [[Sacred Scrolls]]. Earth is first mentioned by [[Adama, William|Commander Adama]] during a speech made after funeral services in the wake of the devastating [[Cylon attack]] on the Twelve Colonies, claiming that it is a real place and that top military leadership knew its location (see [[Mini-series]]). In a private conversation with newly-appointed President [[Laura Roslin]], Adama admits that he has no clue where Earth may be if it exists. His true motivation was inspirational; he intended to bolster the morale of the population (especially his beleaguered crew) in the aftermath of the [[Cylon attack|near-annihilation]] of humanity.

While she is initially skeptical, going so far as to rebuke Adama for his dishonesty, [[Laura Roslin|Roslin's]] faith grows perceptibly throughout the events of the first season. This transition is at least partly due to her use of the hallucinogen [[Chamalla]] as an alternative treatment to her terminal breast cancer, whose side-effects she increasingly interprets as prophetic vision. These visions start in the episode [[Flesh and Bone]] with a portentious dream in which she sees [[Leoben Conoy]] before he is discovered hiding in the fleet. She experiences a more disturbing vision in [[The Hand of God]], when imaginary snakes covering her pulpit disturb her during a press conference on the [[Colonial One]]. During this same episode, she confides in [[Elosha]] the priestess of her previous vision concerning Corben.

Her visions continue as the Fleet actually finds the legendary Kobol in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]], leading ultimately to her temporary [[Laura Roslin#Visions and Insurrection|deposition]]. Eventually, the [[Arrow of Apollo]] is recovered from [[Caprica]], the [[Tomb of Athena]] is opened, and clues to the location of Earth are discovered in [[Home, Part II]]. In a mysterious chamber, the stars of the Twelve Colonies are represented in the twelve [[Wikipedia:Zodiac|Zodiacal]] constellations, as viewed from Earth, recognized by Roslin as the shapes of the original flags of the Twelve Colonies. The chamber itself was intended by its builders to be a stylized replica of the night sky of the Earth, from which all twelve Colonies could be seen. This is corroborated by [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]], who quotes [[Sacred Scrolls|scripture]], saying that Earth was the place where the people of the Thirteenth Tribe could look up into the sky and see their twelve brothers. [[Lee Adama|Captain Apollo]] also visually recognized the [[Wikipedia:Lagoon Nebula|Lagoon Nebula]], also represented in the ''night sky'' of the mystery chamber. Apparently this astronomical object is very well known to Fleet personnel, since [[William Adama|Commander Adama]] remarked that this celestial body would take some time to reach.

As a side note, in one of the ''Extras'' included on the five-disc DVD release of the first season of Battlestar Galactica, Eddie Olmos (the actor portraying [[William Adama|Commander Adama]]) remarks in a very jocular fashion that they will never reach Earth. Mary McDonnell (the actress who plays [[Laura Roslin]]), who just so happens to be there, covers his mouth and tries to hush him while laughing. Although loyal fans may question the trustworthiness of this statement, it is known that the creators keep a "Bible" to the show, to which the actors presumably have access.

=== [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Battlestar Galactica, 1978]] ===

Earth is the [[13th Colony|Thirteenth Colony]]; its settlers having departed long ago from [[Kobol]] after the same environmental cataclysm which caused the [[Kobol#Great_Exodus|Exodus]] of the Twelve Tribes and made Kobol uninhabitable. As stated in the [[Book of the Word]], the [[13th Tribe|Thirteenth Tribe]] left opposite the other [[Twelve Colonies|Twelve Tribes]], the information of their destination residing in the tomb of the [[Ninth Lord of Kobol]]. ([[Lost Planet of the Gods]])

Transmissions from Earth -- i.e. the [[Apollo Moon Landing]] -- were picked up by [[Apollo (TOS)|Captain Apollo]] in the [[Celestial Temple]] on an obsolete [[Gamma Frequency]], though the copy of the transmission was destroyed in the attack on the [[Cylon basestar (TOS)|Cylon basestar]]. ([[The Hand of God (TOS)|The Hand of God]])

== Notes (Non-Canonical) ==

In the nefarious <i>[[Galactica 1980]]</i>, Earth was discovered. Much to the dismay of Adama and the survivors, the humans on Earth were underdeveloped and would not be able to defend themselves from the [[Cylons (TOS)|Cylons]].

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Planets]]
[[Category:RDM]]
[[Category:TOS]]