Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Gaeta's Lament/Archive 1

2008-05-18T21:07:07Z

Grible:

WOOT First Comment!!! I hope they do a recording of the whole thing. [[User:Silversword|Silversword]] 20:39, 17 May 2008 (UTC)!
:I'm sure it will appear on the season 4 soundtrack. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 21:20, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's a bit of speculation for you :- He's not singing about the boxed three is he...? [[User:Grible|Grible]] 21:07, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Six of One/Archive 1

2008-04-18T10:57:58Z

Grible:

== Casting Head Baltar?!? ==
[http://www.sidesexpress.com/se_index.cfm?locid=5&task=type&l=5&c=battlestar#sr] Why would they be casting "Head Baltar"? The only reason I can think of is that James Callis has finally grown so much facial hair he can't just shave and regrow as he used to. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 14:53, 13 June 2007 (CDT)
:That's probably why. I have a feeling that Baltar is going to be a bit of a "religious" personage, he'll probably be sporting quite the growth. See [[Beard of Organized Labor]] for a bit of beard background. :) [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 15:01, 13 June 2007 (CDT)
:Age is also a possibility, but I'll wait until more information is known, before I engage in speculation about this. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:02, 13 June 2007 (CDT)
::Yeah, virtual Baltar could appear to Six as a child or an old man. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:00, 26 June 2007 (CDT)

They probably casted a stand in. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 02:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

== Seven of Nine ==

It seems like the name for this episode "Six of One" is a reference to the Star Trek: Voyager character '''Seven of Nine''' (another TV show that RMD had a hand in). On a personal note: I think that the name "Six of One" is about how Caprica Six will find true individuality, outside of the Cylon "Collective", or at least acceptance among the Galactica crew (like Athena). Any thoughts? [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 00:20, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
:As noted on the page, the full idiom is "Six of one, half dozen of the other". The Cylons don't have that much similarities with the Borg and limited shared memories at most. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 01:14, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
:: True but it could also be an "easter egg" for the fans (like me) that have way to much time on their hands. [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 01:35, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
:::There's also six known Cylons in the colonial fleet, and six unboxed Cylon models in the Cylon fleet. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:00, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
::::What if they add a 13th Cylon to the mix? Just to throw us even more off than the whole "Saul is a Cylon". [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 21:36, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
:::::There isn't any reason why there ''can't'' be another recently created Cylon model, but that falls under [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking]] rather than plausible speculation. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:45, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
::::::I think its obviously based from the saying "Six of one, half dozen of the other". I think that fitting a Trek reference into this is stretching it a bit, I don't think its got anything to do with 7 of 9. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 03:12, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

== [[w:The Prisoner|Prisoner]] reference? ==

Given that Six's [[w:Number Six (The Prisoner)|name]] is inspired by that very show, it seems it wouldn't be wholly off to say this might well be another reference. Anyone agree or disagree? [[User:DrWho42|DrWho42]] 23:35, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
* I'd be inclined to agree, but it might be best to leave it out unless the screenwriters say it was a reference, or the aired episode has more obvious Prisoner references (people saying "be seeing you", killer balloons, etc.) —[[User: Silly Dan|Silly Dan]] [[User talk:Silly Dan|(talk)]] 11:56, 17 February 2008 (CST)

== six of (the) one ==

If Baltar is really "the chosen one", ''Six Of One'' may be referring to his relationship and/or visions of Caprica Six. {{unsigned|Xlynx}}

== The Big Dee ==

Was that "getting the house" line from Lee an indication of a more permanent split between him and Dee? Or am I reading too much into it? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 23:36, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
:Not sure, but the split seems kinda permanent now. And going back to Season 3, Dee entered the marriage fully aware that it might not last long, but is happy to be in it while it does. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 23:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
:From the comments made in this episode, the split seems permanent. (Thank the Gods!) It is interesting that while Lee didn't have the balls to terminate the relationship, she did... But she knew that the relationship would've ended someday, so she was prepared for that possibility. I really, truthfully hope this means we'll get to see less of her this season, but given some of the comments about Dee having a "dark side" that'll come out this year, I sadly doubt it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 02:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
::I prefer that he made some effort to keep their relationship going in "Taking a Break...". Sure, Dualla is right, and the marriage was never a thing that could last for a long time, but Adama just dropping her when it isn't convenient anymore isn't any way to show "balls". This way he he shows some commitment, despite sleeping around with Thrace, and the whole thing ended on better terms. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:28, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

== Questions ==

A few of the entries in the questions section seem dubious.
:"Why do the Raiders not want to destroy the Final Five, yet Number Ones, Fours and Fives do?"
IMO the answer is that Raiders don't have the intelligence or motivation to overcome their instincts / programming not to harm Cylons.
:"Will Tory Foster fall under Baltar's spell?"
She was crying in shame and disgust, so I don't consider this plausible.
:"Why was Foster crying during intercourse with Baltar?"
I think this question should be removed. In act 1, when Tigh suggested that Tori seduce Baltar, Tori was disgusted by the prospect, however she decided to go thorugh with the plan despite her revulsion. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
:Having seen her with Anders, we definitely know the "always cries" line was bogus. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 00:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
:I agree about the tears, but she seems to overcome that initial revulsion a bit, and even get into it at the end. Yes, the tears are probably from her disgust at the start, but that really changes and she even urges Baltar to continue and kisses him, instead of just leaving. And during the conversation, she seems to be captivated a bit by Baltar talking about music, before she leaves. The questions should be replaced by an analysis item or two exploring that. That's really more helpful and interesting than superficial questions. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 00:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
::I've changed the first question, because the Ones, Fours, and Fives don't say that they want to destroy the Final Five. The others seem fair, as Tory seemed to be listening to Baltar. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 00:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
:::If "fall under Baltar's spell" means "become another Baltar groupie", I think it's out of the question. If "fall under Baltar's spell" means "gradually become sympathetic to Baltar", it's plausible, but I think it should be rephrased. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:06, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
::::I'll have to disagree, Gordon. There's more to Tory's crying than simple revulsion, although that's the feeling she had initially when Tigh proposed that she get close to Baltar. However with his mesmerizing bravo sierra about "music", his belief that Cylons are people, and that she doesn't quite know what to make of her "Cylon-ness", I have a feeling that she'll enter his cult, particularly since Roslin has one foot in the grave. Should be interesting how everything goes down, and I think we'll see more the next episode, given that Tory does something seriously bad ass for once. Bye, bye [[Cally|bitch]]. :D -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 02:11, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::Joe's spot on. Baltar's never had any problems with the ladies, especially Cylon ladies. Also, Joe's analysis of the crying is right on (This is referenced in Grey's Anatomy, the TV show, of all places. I suppose I must admit I watch it; Chler Leigh is hot, and it also makes a great common ground conversation point for older women :) ) ... where was I? Yeah, anyway. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 03:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::I think the real question is why she decided to have sex with him. As for "falling under his spell", I think she could fall in with his cult, but I don't think she's capable of idolizing him like they do. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 09:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::::It wouldn't surprise me if she pulled some form of [[Gina]] on the cult. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::::"Pull a Gina" like she did with [[Demand Peace]] or "pull a Gina" like she did with the [[Cloud 9]]? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::Either one. Emotionally, Tory is in just the same place as Gina... except how they got there differed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 01:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::The latter possibility ''seems'' a bit extreme at first glance, but everyone he sleeps with seems to go crazy, die or both soon after, so the [[w:Discworld (world)#The power of belief|law of narrative causality]] says she's a ticking time bomb, hopefully she won't be able to get her hands on any warheads. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
First of all, Tigh didn't suggest that she sleeps with Baltar. This should be corrected in the article. He said "You don't have to get on your back for him". She could have just flirted and strung him along until she found if he knows something.
Second, she really didn't have to sleep with Baltar, especially since he was talking anyway, without much prompting from her. And what does she do after his melody speech? Instead of staying and trying to find out more, she runs away, visibly shaken by what he said. And then she jumps in bed with him right afterwards?! If she were that repulsed by the idea of sleeping with him, why did she do it? Sorry, guys, but since their conversation, she didn't seem repusled by him, this is only your wishful thinking, I'm afraid. She was clearly touched by his words... it looks to me like Baltar might have just converted her, or at least started to, to monotheism...she may be the first of the Four to accept her Cylon nature.
Third, how is Tory "in the same place" as Gina?! Please explain! I don't see any similarity?!
[[User:FrakkinToasterLover|FrakkinToasterLover]]
:You can just change such small things yourself. Just some words here and there. I just did that :) I think the analysis item covers the uncertain nature of Foster's action well enough (it's different from some of the posts here). It mentions that she is captivated by Baltar's words and sleeps with him despite her revulsion. Furthermore it states that the cause of her crying, as well as how far Baltar has charmed her, are somewhat unclear. How that develops remains to be seen and will be analyzed in the next episode guide(s) then.-- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the most dubious question is what will happen to the fleet's sewage. Does nobody else think this is just pathetic? {{unsigned|MiAd}}
:Just like many of the overly technical and trivial questions. But we can hardly go around and remove everything we don't like, so only the ''really'' stupid stuff gets removed. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
:: Well, we know that ''Galactica'' is capable of nearly 100% water replenishment. One would assume that the Bucket's own waste management system supplements that system... The ones that'd really need this ship are the other civvie ships, which aren't capable of long-term sewage. Further, the ship is reported to be submarine like, and thus small... which makes it easily expendable, since it doesn't have the living space to support the Fleet's citizens.
:: Besides, they could always rip a page or three from the Empire's handbook and just jettison their junk before they jump to lightspeed. :D -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The question "Is the Eight dancing in front of Cavil Sharon Valerii? Does this signify anything?" is unimportant/answered. A dancing/training Eight appeared in "[[Torn]]" already, and the reason why Cavil watches is that she is nude. Baltar in "Torn" was more polite ;-) --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 21:06, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
:Given the later developments of the episode, the logical inference is that we're seeing a Cavil petitioning Boomer for her vote. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
::That and they may have a relationship. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 02:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
:::That's completely absurd. We know that Eights are inclined to non-sexualized nudity ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]], [[Torn]], and have absolutely no other reason to make such an inference. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
::::The episode has a few possible hints of something going on between the One and Boomer. It's ambiguous, particularly because she's an Eight, however I think that the scene at least foreshadows Boomer siding with the Ones. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

:This one: "With the Demetrius leaving under Starbuck's command, how will the Fleet's sewage be dealt with?"... The main question is, do we really care? What are the chances the writers are going to devote screentime to the dramatic tensions of sewage processing? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 21:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
::True, of course, but by the same logic we would have to remove about half the questions in most articles, because they will never be addressed or answered either. While not a small number of questions are indeed trivial and even groan inducing, there are some good rhetorical ones that just serve to get one to think about something. (not including this one :p) However, in general, I'm not a fan of how the question section is often used to ask about seemingly most minor and irrelevant things. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 21:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

== "Admiral Atheus"? ==

I could've sworn she said "Admiral Atheist", not "Atheus". Anyone care to confirm? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 20:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
:Mhhh, could be, although I can't really hear the "t" at the end. "Atheus" would fit too, but despite the ancient Greek influences in the show, it's a very obscure reference. So "atheist" is more logical. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 21:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
:: That's what I was thinking. Frankly, I feel she just didn't enunciate when she was speaking... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 21:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Actually, it I misread something. "Atheus" is not a name, but it's simply greek for "atheist". Probably even the root of the modern word. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 21:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
::::Atheus is actually how us southerners pronounce atheist ;-) -- [[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 15:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

== Helo might not be going with Thrace on the ''Demetrius'' ==

From the dialogue:
:Adama: Helo handpicked a crew for you. I'm giving you a ship. Hope you can stand the smell.
:Agathon: We liberated the ''Demetrius''. It's a sewage recycling ship. Party line will be that we're going on a scouting mission, looking for food.
When Helo says "we", he could be referring to the Fleet's military command sending them out, and not "we" as in Kara and him. And Helo is CAG, he is needed on ''Galactica'' and too visible to be sent out on a "maybe Kara is right" sideshow mission. We'll see soon enough ...-- [[User:Fredmdbud|Fredmdbud]] 04:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
:If you wish to be spoiled, look at the pics in ''[[The Road Less Travelled]]'' for the answer. However, you will probably get a much better response for this type of discussion at [http://www.battlestarforum.com/ Battlestar Forum]. -- [[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 15:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

==Lee's Toasts==
These are quite close to the real world traditional naval toasts - This along with Helo's providing a special box of glasses to carry them out suggests to me that the drinking of these might be a common ritual for departing officers. Not sure if it's worth chucking in the article somewhere but it's here for now.

Naval Toasts (RN)
:Sunday ............... Absent friends. - Used Directly
:Monday ...............Our ships at sea. - "Galactica"
:Tuesday .............. Our men. - "The Men and Women of Galactica"
:Wednesday ..........Ourselves (as no one else is likely to concern themselves with our welfare). - "The Admiral...etc"
:Thursday ............. A bloody war or a sickly season.
:Friday ..................A willing foe and sea room.
:Saturday ............. Sweethearts and wives (may they never meet). - used more or less directly.
[[User:Grible|Grible]] 10:57, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The Captain's Hand

2006-02-20T23:21:04Z

Grible: /* Questions */

{{Episode Data|
Image = [[Image:Adamas.jpg|300px]]
| Title= The Captain's Hand
| Series= [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|The Re-imagined Series]]
| Season= [[Season 2 (2005-06)|2]]
| Episode= 17
| Guests=[[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]]
| Writer=[[IMDB:nm0900599|Jeff Vlaming]]
| Story=
| Director=[[IMDB:nm0590790|Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]]
| Production=
| Rating=
| US Airdate= February 17 2006
| UK Airdate=
| DVD=
| Population= 49,584
| Prev= [[Sacrifice]]
| Next= [[Downloaded]]
}}

== Overview ==

''When two Raptors go missing after a training mission, new ''Pegasus'' commander [[Barry Garner]] challenges Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]]'s orders by sending his battlestar directly into the rescue zone--and a trap.''

== Summary ==
*Two [[Raptor|Raptors]] begin a training mission outside [[Pegasus (RDM)|''Pegasus'']], which is near a [[Wikipedia:Binary star system|binary star]], causing [[Dradis|DRADIS]] and communications interference. In the C.I.C., the Raptors disappear from DRADIS, the Comm officer believing that they may be in distress.

*On ''[[Galactica]]'', [[Tyrol|Chief Tyrol]] and the deck crew are in the process of unloading containers, Tyrol finds a pregnant teenager who asks for [[Cottle|Dr. Cottle]].

*[[Lee Adama]] arrives on the [[Mercury class battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', where he runs into [[Kara Thrace]]. Lee has been promoted to '''Major''', and both report to Commander Garner in the C.I.C. Garner is quick to chew out now-Captain Thrace over the disapperance of the Raptors.

*[[Barry Garner|Commander Garner]] and [[Lee Adama|Major Adama]] talk in private about the discipline on [[Pegasus (RDM)|''Pegasus'']]. Garner thinks that [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] is a huge part of the problem, but Adama defends her, citing her excellent piloting skills. Garner thinks that the virtues learned in his experience as an engineer would do the ship some good.

*On [[Colonial One]], [[Laura_Roslin|President Roslin]] is being hounded by her new aide, [[Tory Foster]] about preparing for the coming election. Elsewhere, [[Tom Zarek]] discusses the idea of presidency, however concedes he's not able to garner support, but is willing to support someone more scientific; [[Gaius Baltar|Dr. Baltar]].

*Back on ''Galactica'', Dr. Cottle & Admiral Adama discuss the fate of the young woman found in the container, Rya. Rya mentions the fact that she doesn't want to keep the baby, but Admiral Adama (upon request from the Gemenese delegate) is intent on sending her back to her family. Dr. Cottle suggests that she request asylum aboard ''Galactica''.

*News of [[Rya Kibby|Rya's]] asylum request has raised a stir amongst the Fleet. [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]] discusses the issue with Admiral Adama, [[Tory Foster]], and Delegate [[Sarah_Porter|Sarah Porter]] from Gemenon. Delegate Porter mentions that the abortion is a obscenity and demands that the girl be returned to her parents. Officially, President Roslin responds by saying the asylum request is under review. Afterwards, President Roslin mentions she's not willing to even consider the idea of abortion. She eventually announces to the fleet an Executive Order making abortion by mother or doctor subject to criminal arrest.

*While reviewing the last transmissions from the Raptors, [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] makes a startling discovery, in that the reason for the disappearance may be the result of answering a supposed distress call. She attempts to bring this up with Commander Garner, who flatly rejects the theory.

*At the last known position, the additional search parties learn of the distress call that lured the first Raptors away. Commander Garner decides to start preparing the Pegasus for jump.

*Over wireless, [[Barry Garner|Commander Garner]], [[Lee Adama|Major Adama]], and [[William Adama|Admiral Adama]] discuss the missing raptor situation. Commander Garner feels that the Pegasus should jump to bring home the missing crews and ships. When the Admiral asks Lee if he concurs, Lee discusses Starbuck's theory that the raptor were drawn into a Cylon trap. Admiral Adama is inclined to agree with the Major and Starbuck, and orders a recon mission to ascertain the fate of the two raptors. Garner is furious over the decision, and orders Major Adama off the C.I.C.

*Garner decides to make the jump regardless of Adama's orders. Raptors are launched from ''Pegasus'' towards the now located raptors, only to find both Raptor crews dead. At that moment, three [[Basestar (RDM)|Basestar]] jump into view which begin attacking ''Pegasus'' with conventional and nuclear missile barrages seconds after their arrival.

*During the course of the assault, [[Pegasus|''Pegasus's'']] [[FTL]] drive is disabled. Garner attempts to determine the cause from C.I.C., but is unable to do so due to the confusion of the Engineering crew. Commander Garner decides to head down to the engine room to ascertain the damage, and transfers command of [[Pegasus (RDM)|''Pegasus'']] to Major Adama. Adama, after a moment of hesitation, swings into action, ordering ''Pegasus'' into the fray, closing with one of the Basestars and engaging it with the forward batteries, severely damaging the Cylon ship.

*Through Garner's successful repair of their FTL system, ''Pegasus'' manages to jump away. Commander Garner, however, is killed in the process.

*In [[William Adama|Admiral Adama's]] quarters, the Admiral and [[Lee Adama|Major Adama]] review the reports from the incident on ''Pegasus''. After pointing out that Lee was more forgiving of the late Commander than Starbuck was, Admiral Adama asks what Garner's fatal flaw was. Lee responds that Garner was accustomed to working with machines, but that command is about people. The Admiral asks Lee to keep that in mind, as he offers Lee the job of commanding ''Pegasus'', along with a promotion to Commander.

*[[Gaius Baltar|Gaius Baltar]] proclaims his candidacy for President of the Colonies in the Presidential election in the midst of a press conference called by [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]] regarding abortion in the Fleet.

== Questions ==
*Would Adama allow Dr. Cottle to be arrested? From the episode, he is of the opinion that he would do what is necessary.
**Given that Cottle is the only real doctor left in the fleet, Adama may be hesitant to take such an action.
***This idea is supported by Cottle's behavior toward officers: Adama is the only one to whom he shows even marginal respect.
**Are there no doctors on Pegasus? If Cain had a large civilian fleet to recruit from, it is likely that she would have drafted some doctors into service.
*Was Baltar's report real, or was it just invented to produce the opportunity to drive his wedge?
**With the constant Cylon attacks to the Fleet (barring the unexpected return of ''Pegasus'') the population is almost always declining, as noted by Admiral Adama.
*Who will replace Baltar as Roslin's Vice President?
**Can Roslin actually pick another Vice President, under Colonial law, if Baltar refuses to resign? One of the reporters at the end actually directly asked if Baltar would remain as Vice President. Perhaps Roslin cannot forcibly remove Baltar from his office just because he's running aginst her.
***If Colonial law works similarly to American political protocol, Baltar was elected in his own right. For example, George Bush cannot force Dick Cheney to resign, only Mr. Cheney himself can elect to resign. Interestingly, 204 years ago, US President John Adams faced a similar situation: His own Vice-President, Thomas Jefferson, plotted Adams' political downfall.
*How will Zarek position himself in the Baltar campaign?
**It is likely that Zarek hopes to become Vice President himself.
***Does Zarek plan to have Baltar killed, as per his plan in "[[Colonial Day]]"?
****Zarek actually seems willing to make a beneficial alliance with Baltar, which Roslin would never agree to.
****Baltar may be a political novice but he's no fool; he would spot that a mile away. In fact, Baltar specifically asks Zarek what he (Zarek) would want in return. Zarek gave a diplomatic answer rather than openly ask for the VP slot.
*Will Tigh accept the fact that Lee Adama now outranks him and has command of a ship? Or does Saul have no interest in command and already told Admiral Adama that before the posting was offered to Lee?
**As mentioned in "[[Scattered]]," Col. Tigh was never really interested in commanding a battlestar.
***Fleet protocols, as in the real-world US Navy and other naval services around the globe, would require Tigh, as the senior officer to take command, as he did when Adama was incapacitated.
****This is true for an intra-ship command structure, but if other qualified officers were available, Col. Tigh probably had the privilege to pass up the command of ''Pegasus,'' citing XO's prerogative (or something similar).
*What will happen to Rya, now that she had been granted asylum on ''Galactica''?
*Why was Lee promoted straight from Major to Commander? Can a Colonel not be placed in command of a battlestar for long-term purposes?
**No. Colonel [[Jack Fisk]] was promoted to Commander of ''Pegasus'' before his death. It appears to be something of a rank nomenclature formality, as Garner was promoted up from being head of engineering. Compare to the [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Captain established terminology convention] on ''Star Trek'' for always referring to the commanding officer of a ship as "Captain", even if that officer does not hold that specific rank.
***The use of "captain" is done in real life as well. In the US Navy, a person in the command of a vessel is referred to as "Captain" even if his actual rank is Lieutenant Commander, Ensign or even if he/she is a Non-Commissioned Officer (NCO).
*Had Garner been serving as XO to ''Pegasus's''' previous commander, the late [[Jack Fisk]]?
*Does the fact that the Cylons had such a large force waiting to ambush ''Pegasus'' indicate that they have a new [[Resurrection Ship]] in place?
**Given that there were three basestars in wait, it is more likely that the Cylons opted on surprise and sheer numbers to succeed. Still, ''Pegasus'' caused one basestar to retreat, despite being outnumbered. It is likely that the ''lack'' of a Resurrection Ship resulted in the basestar's retreat.
**Before, the Cylons were confident in making a frontal assault on a battlestar with a single basestar, in "[[Scattered]]", etc. They are markedly ''less'' confident now.
*How does the double layer flight pod system on ''Pegasus'' operate? Just before the battlestar jumps away from the ambush, there is a short sequence of Vipers returning to the ship that shows them landing on two distinct levels of the flight pod, with Vipers landing on the lower level being upside down with respect to ''Pegasus''. Both the Colonials and Cylons obviously have some form of artifical gravity on their spacecraft, so this explains why such an arrangement is possible.
**For more on the use of artificial gravity, see the article, [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]].
*How could the pro-abortion law be established throughout the colonies against the religious views of at least one planet? Was it introduced only recently?
**Abortion may have been illegal or tightly-curtailed on that one planet. How much power did the Colonial political structure give to individual planets or smaller geographic areas?
***On present day Earth, there are several countries which have legalized abortion, but which have fundamentalist internal regions/cultural subgroups which frown upon it. The Twelve Colonies were ruled by a federal system, not a loose confederation adhering to princiles of States' Rights, etc.; the majority view in the federal government could probably enforce such laws on member worlds.
*What kind of equipment is available to fix small breaches such as the one in the "Pegasus" Engine room?
** [[Helo]] uses a hand-held pressure pad to seal a minor breach in the damaged Raptor during the [[Miniseries]] right after he recives his leg wound. Would such a device not help here?

== Analysis ==
*When Baltar announces his candidacy for the Presidency, Number Six applauds with a slow clap. This action runs in parallel to how then-Commander William Adama led the entire crew in a long, drawn-out slow clap in respect of President Roslin when she was re-instated to her office in "[[Home, Part II]]".
*Survivor count is decremented by six from "[[Sacrifice]]", but seven people died in that episode - terrorists [[Sesha Abinell]], [[Vinson]], [[Page]] and [[Chu]], two unnamed marines, and civilian [[Billy Keikeya]]. At least one birth must have taken place to offset the population count between the two episodes.
*Based on the ''[[Colonial One]]'' whiteboard seen toward the end of the episode, only five people died as a result of the ambush on ''Pegasus'': [[Richard Bayer|Richard "Buster" Bayer]], [[Lyla Ellway|Lyla "Shark" Ellway]], the unnamed crew of [[Raptor 314]], and Commander [[Barry Garner]].
**This casualty figure is conspicuously low, considering that ''Galactica'' lost 85 crewmen as the result of a hit by a single nuclear missile in the [[miniseries]], while ''Pegasus'' is hit with no less than three in this episode.
**On the other hand, it is at least consistent with the surprisingly low number of casualties incurred in the [[Battle of the Resurrection Ship]], and may indicate that the hull armor on ''Pegasus'' is significantly stronger than on ''Galactica'', which has many conspicuously bare structural ribs.
**There may be two further explanations for this (1) that the board hadn't been updated to reflect the damage on the ''Pegasus'', only the pilots lost. (2) A large number of the ''Galactica'' casualties were caused by the decision to vent the spreading fire rather than from the actual impact of the missile.
*In the course of this episode's timeline, [[Lee Adama]] rises from the rank of Captain (CAG of ''[[Galactica]]'') to Major (No details are given on that posting except Adama was assigned to [[Pegasus (RDM)|''Pegasus'']]), to Commander and CO of [[Pegasus (RDM)|''Pegasus'']] in the wake of Commander [[Barry Garner|Barry Garner's]] death saving his ship.
**Major Adama's duty was intended as a temporary stint as ''Pegasus'' acting XO, to familiarize himself with the duties of a senior officer. In the opening scene, he tells [[Anastasia Dualla]] that he expects to return to ''Galactica'' "in a couple of weeks".
*Garner's decision to mount a rescue operation in contravention of his commanding officer's orders is an explicit parallel to "[[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]", down to the choice of words:
:'''Adama:''' "I'm getting my men."
:'''Garner:''' "I'm going to get our men."
*Kara Thrace's posting is finally clarified in this episode: she is now serving as CAG on ''[[Galactica]]''.
**She was transferred to ''Pegasus'' in "[[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]" and then promoted to that ship's CAG over [[Cole Taylor|Cole "Stinger" Taylor]] in "[[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]". In "[[Epiphanies]]", it is made clear that Lee Adama regained his posting as ''Galactica's'' CAG. In "[[Epiphanies]]", Thrace is seen piloting one of ''Galactica's'' Mk. II Vipers with Kat; in "[[Scar]]" she is serving on Galactica, and appears to have assumed the majority of Adama's responsibilities as CAG, although she still takes orders from him.
**During this episode it's mentioned that she's only been on board ''Pegasus'' for four days before getting thrown in the brig, so clearly she isn't ''Pegasus's'' CAG any longer. Thus, despite the great esteem Cain held her in (she was the second speaker at Cain's funeral, after Jack Fisk), it seems clear that she was removed from her position on ''Pegasus'' sometime after Cain's death.

== Notes ==
*Timeline-wise, Baltar says that he made an initial projection of the fleet's population "over seven months ago". This would have been before the arrival of ''Pegasus'', since he said he factored in the arrival of her crew subsequently.
*It has been "almost a month" since Apollo was shot in "[[Sacrifice]]".
*The recap at the beginning of this episode includes two scenes that did not actually appear in any previous episode, but were constructed by redubbing existing footage.
**There scene where Colonel Tigh and Admiral Adama discuss Garner's promotion is constructed from the scene in "Black Market" when Adama and Tigh are telling Apollo to go to ''Pegasus'' on the hangar deck. The scene has been cleverly redubbed, so that Adama is saying entirely new lines when the camera is pointed at ''Tigh'' (not at Adama's face), and then Tigh says new lines when the camera is pointed at ''Adama''.
**The same technique is used when Baltar is talking to Gina: when the camera is pointed at Baltar, we hear [[Gina]] saying "You must betray Roslin and run for President in the upcoming election", but this was never heard in the aired version of "[[Epiphanies]]".
*Capt. [[Cole Taylor|Cole "Stinger" Taylor]] is still onboard ''Pegasus'', mentioned by Capt. Thrace as being in the brig for insubordination.
*The adjectival form of "Gemenon" is "Gemenese".
*Under Gemenese law, minors are the "property" of their parents.
*[[Mercury class battlestar]]s do not need to retract their flight pods prior to a jump, unlike the [[Galactica type battlestar|Galactica type]].
*The coolant pressure gauges on ''Pegasus'' measure in PSI, presumably [[Wikipedia:Pound-force per square inch|Pound-force per square inch]]. This is consistant with the use of customary units on the Viper Mk. II's [[Altimeter]], seen in "[[Act of Contrition]]".
*This is the fourth episode of the season in which [[Grace Park]] has not appeared as [[Sharon Valerii]].
*Writer Jeff Vlaming references [[Wikipedia:William Shakespeare|Shakespeare]]'s "[[Wikipedia:The Merchant of Venice|The Merchant of Venice]]" when he has [[Laura Roslin]] tell [[Quorum of Twelve]] delegate [[Sarah Porter]], "you have your pound of flesh".

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

*''Following the Cylon ambush of '''Pegasus''' and the death of Commander Garner
:'''[[William Adama|Admiral Adama]]''': In your opinion, off the record, what was Garner's flaw?
:'''[[Lee Adama|Major Lee Adama]]''': He was used to working with machines. Command is about people.
:'''Admiral Adama''': Remember that, as you take command of "The Beast" ([[Pegasus (RDM)|''Pegasus'']]). Garner was my decision; His failures, my responsibility. Don't let me fail a second time. Congratulations, Commander.

*Responding to President Roslin's decision to criminalize abortion:
:'''[[Gaius Baltar|Vice-President Baltar]]''': It is true in the light of recent events, the President may have lost support in some quarters. I would ask the people to understand that if this is an extreme decision, we live in extreme times. The decision has been made with good faith. I, however, cannot with good conscience support it. I am so sorry, Madame President, but the Cylon have no understanding the meaning of the word "freedom". How could they? They're programmed...machines. Every time you take away one of our freedoms, every time we restrict or curtail one of our rights, we become one step closer to being like them. As the Vice-President, I am bound to follow the administration's lead; As President, I should have no such strictures. Given the current situation, I'm afraid that I have no alternative but to announce that I am, as of now, a candidate for the Presidency.

=== Guest Stars ===

*[[IMDB:nm0001334|John Heard]] as Commander [[Barry Garner]]
*[[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Aaron+Douglas Aaron Douglas] as Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Nicki+Clyne Nicki Clyne] as Specialist [[Cally]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0722413/ Donnelly Rhodes] as Dr. [[Cottle]]
*Rekha Sharma as [[Tory Foster]]
*Brad Dryborough as Lieutenant [[Hoshi]]
*Christian Tessier as [[Tucker Clellan|Tucker "Duck" Clellan]]
*Amber Rothwell as [[Rya Kibby]]
*Kavan Smith as Lt. [[Richard Bayer|Richard "Buster" Bayer]]
*[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2015903/ Stephanie von Pfetten] as Cpt. [[Marcia Case|Marcia "Showboat" Case]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Patricia+Idlette Particia Idlette] as [[Sarah Porter]]
*Aaron Pearl as Ensign [[Abel Thornton]]
*Christina Schild as [[Playa Palacios]]
*Tammy Hui as ECO [[Lyla Ellway|Lyla "Shark" Ellway]]
*James Bell as Lt. [[Steve Fleer|Steve "Red Devil" Fleer]]
*Kurt Max Runte as Ensign Charles Bellamy
*Kimani Ray Smith as Pegasus Sergeant

{{Episode List}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: RDM]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Jeff Vlaming]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]]

Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)/Archive3

2006-01-31T14:23:35Z

Grible:

Isn't Cally referred to as a Specialist at some point? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:32, 29 August 2005 (EDT)

Definitely. There's a time when the Chief tells the "Specialist" to go do something. -QuintusCinna.

Well, that just fracks up the whole thing then. Not only do we have Cally in the wrong place and we're missing a rank, but it's an Army/Air Force rank for a Fleet member. :( (On the plus side, Specialists are E-4s though IIRC.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:38, 29 August 2005 (EDT)

Let's be open with the Chief's use of "specialist". It might have been relative to her MOS, though I doubt it. Such as tech specialist, deck specialist, things of that sort. In the military we often called them specialists too, though I do believe, just like you, that the chief was meaning it in the context of rank. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]

==Abbreviations==
Here is the list of abbreviations I wrote for the ranks here. The enlisted ranks for Marines are still a little rough though, the "all caps" ranks are in the US Army style, others use lower case, eg Master Sergeant: MSG, MSgt.

Officer 
O-11 Fleet Admiral No abbrev., FAdm could work 
O-10 Admiral Adm 
O-9 Vice Admiral VAdm 
O-8 Rear Admiral RAdm 
O-7 Commander Cdr 
O-6 Colonel Col 
O-5 Major Maj 
O-4 Captain Capt 
O-3 Lieutenant Lt 
O-2 Lieutenant Junior Grade LtJG 
O-1 Ensign Ens 

Enlisted 
E-9 Master Chief Petty Officer MCPO 
E-8 Senior Chief Petty Officer SCPO 
E-7 Chief Petty Officer CPO 
E-6 Petty Officer 1st Class PO1 
E-5 Petty Officer 2nd Class PO2 
E-4 Petty Officer 3rd Class PO3 
E-3 Crewman CN (based on US Navy Seaman SN) 
E-2 Crewman Apprentice CA ("") 
E-1 Crewman Recruit CR ("") 

Marine 
E-9 Sergeant Major SGM 
E-8 Senior Master Sergeant/Master Sergeant SMSgt/MSG 
E-7 Master Sergeant/Sergeant 1st Class MSG/SFC 
E-6 Staff Sergeant SSG 
E-5 Sergeant SGT 
E-4 Corporal CPL 
E-3 Private 1st Class PFC 
E-2 Private 2nd Class PV2 
E-1 Private Recruit PVR 
--[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:33, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

: I went ahead and formatted your post, Talos, so that it was easier to read. I don't think I broke anything, did I? Anyway, I think the all-caps ranks look loud. I know that's kind of an artifact of the internet, but still... I'd rather just cap the first letter of a word from an abbreviation. Thus "PFC" is fine because each of those are the first letter of a word. On the other hand, I'd rather "Sgt." than "SGT". Also, "Cpt." and "Cmdr." are more intuitive to me, but I don't know if I made those up or ''where'' they came from. --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:03, 15 September 2005 (EDT)
::Thanks for the formatting, that's how it was whem I typed it in notepad. I see how that works now. Like I said, the reason they are all caps is that it is based on the Army enlisted structure. I didn't go with the Marine Corps structure because it's missing the two ranks unique to the MC, Lance Corporal and Gunnery Sergeant. Here is a link about the US Military ranks: [http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/insignias/officers.html]. There is a link on top to the enlisted ranks. What is interesting is the way the US Navy O-6 rank's head is turned compared to the others. Also, Capt and Cdr are how the USN abbreviates Captain and Commander. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 07:00, 15 September 2005 (EDT)
:::I wanted to add something else, the CAPS are only used in forms, charts, etc. When written with the name it is normal case, so Hadrian,... Rank: SGT, but ...Sgt. Hadrian. I can't believe I forgot this. I must be slipping. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

== Adama ≠ Fleet Admrial ==

: ''Following was moved from [[User talk:Joe.Beaudoin]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] at 21:45, 17 October 2005 (EDT).''

Noticed something while browsing and thought I might mention it...

On the page for Military Ranks (RDM), the supposition is that the rank of Commander (i.e. Cdr. Adama) is equivalent to a US Navy Rear Admiral. In my extensive reading, I have found that there are a few reasons why Commander is not equal to a Rear Admiral or Commodore.

Battlestar Groups are roughly analogous to Carrier Battle Groups, the current major organizational format for the US Navy. CBGs are commanded as an entire body by a Rear Admiral Lower Half, while the carrier itself is commanded by a Captain (O-6). It is possible that, while the vessel was in lay-up at the Scorpion Ship Yards, the Pegasus was part of a functioning BSG. This would explain why Adm. Nelena Cain is in command of the Pegasus. Meanwhile, the Galactica was quite alone at the beginning of the mini-series, and on the verge of decommissioning and conversion. Adama's rank could be considered analogous to an O-6 since the Rear Admiral LH in charge of BSG-75 would have moved to another BSG while Commander (Captain) Adama took the Galactica into retirement. In a footnote in an earlier draft of the page, it was stated that since Adama had the authority to assume command of the fleet (Miniseries), he would have to carry flag rank. This was likely a plot device, and it was never necessary to justify it, since no other Colonial Fleet vessel survived (excepting Pegasus, which was most likely already gone). In the modern US Navy, it would be highly improbable for the Admiral in charge of a CBG to assume command of the entire Navy.

S. Price

:I expect this would be more useful on [[Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)]] than on Joe's talk page. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:24, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

==How Many Admirals==

Although Nagala and Cain are both referred to as simply "admiral", I don't think that's presents strong evidence for them all being of the same rank, distinguished only by seniority. In the real world, both a one-star and four-star Admiral are referred to as simply "Admiral", unless a precise distinction must be made - not the case in the heat of combat, when Nagala's identity and rank would have been quite well known anyway. Furthermore, RDM's comment that Cain was only one promotion up from Commander strongly indicates that there were additional ranks above her.

The methodology of this page to date has been to identify BSG universe ranks with their (rough) NATO-equivalents. This seems sensible to me, since no precise overview of the BSG rank system has been given yet, and it makes sense to evaluate new information with regard to an existing military structure with which the show's creators are familiar. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:39, 7 December 2005 (EST)

::I agree. I can't imagine a "promotion date" hierarchy working very well for establishing seniority between fleet commanders. I don't know how common inter-fleet operations would be, but there would be a lot more friction if equal ranked admirals were issuing orders to each other. While a twelve-admiral "quorum of twelve" would be a very democratic and fair sounding concept, military thinking tends to prefer hierarchy to committee, especially in cases where decision need to be made quickly. I wonder if Cain's insignia might provide any insight into the ranks (and whether there might be higher ones). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:28, 7 December 2005 (EST)

We never see Cain referred to as a "rear admiral" either. Looking at the insignia on the page, there's only one Admiral insignia anyway—there is absolutely no evidence anywhere that rear admirals and vice admirals even exist in Battlestar Galactica. Moore himself only mentions one grade of "admiral" in his blog entry. So essentially what's happening is that people are making things up and pretending it's in the canon just to make Colonial Fleet correspond perfectly with the US Navy.

In response to "I can't imagine a "promotion date" hierarchy working very well for establishing seniority between fleet commanders.", the fact is, the real military uses that hierarchy consciously. For instance, the seven US generals and admirals promoted to five star rank in 1944 were deliberately promoted on consecutive days—Leahy in the 15th, Marshall on the 16th, King on the 17th, MacArthur on the 18th, Nimitz on the 19th, Eisenhower on the 20th, and Arnold on the 21st of December—to allow for such a hierarchy.

More importantly, Colonial Fleet was probably a small and shrinking military force anyway, largely because they had nothing to do—the colonies were united and there was no foreign threat for over 40 years. Furthermore, there can't have possibly been that many ships in the fleet anyway, if Galactica and Pegasus were the only survivors. Four grades of admiral exist are necessary when you're the United States Navy and you have 300 ships. We have no evidence Colonial Fleet was that large. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:17, 7 December 2005 (EST)

:1.) I can't speak for the source on those insignia myself - did [[User:Winterfell]] every say where he found them?

:2.) We know there were at least 120 battlestars, next to the US Navy's 12 aircraft carriers, so I have difficulty with that argument.
::At which point? The Cylon war was 40 years ago. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:56, 7 December 2005 (EST)
:::At the time of the Cylon Attack. When Adama tells Starbuck that 30 battlestars have been destroyed, she replies in shock that "that's a quarter of the fleet!". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:15, 7 December 2005 (EST)
::::OK. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:36, 7 December 2005 (EST)

:3.) I don't think we're pretending anything is in Canon here, and if it looks that way to you, I don't mind making a clearer distinction. The fact is simply that we don't know much about the Colonial Navy, and that comparing the ranks observed on the show to the ranks of a well-documented force is an instructive exercise. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:28, 7 December 2005 (EST)

::Your clarifications look good to me, Philwelch. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:34, 7 December 2005 (EST)
I don't know if it means anything but in Pegasus, the DRADIS screen after they identify the Pegasus has two stars next to the Peggie's symbol. Maybe she's a two-star admiral. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:17, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:Here's what I mean. Note the stars (they are more blob-like here but are stars) next to the Pegasus on the right and how the identically targeted Galactica has none. Also, note that the Pegasus can ID the Gal's Vipers but the Galactica doesn't show the four Pegasus Viper's callsigns. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 15:54, 28 December 2005 (EST)
[[Image:GalPegDradis.JPG|thumb|DRADIS displays, Galactica and Pegasus ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]])]]
::Veering off topic, but Kat is apparently flying "Viper 24" in that scene. Have we seen two-digit numbers used for Vipers elsewhere? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 28 December 2005 (EST)
:::Not that I know of. I was wondering about this earlier, maybe the two digit number is shorthand eg. her Viper is 5624NC or something. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:34, 28 December 2005 (EST)

:: I'm assuming this is a moot point here now, but I'll chime in anyway. Of the 120 or so Battlestars that were commissioned at the time of the attacks on the colonies, I'd say we're missing some information to make an educated guess as to who commands what. Starbuck mentioned 'fleet', so I'm working under the assumption that the word 'Battlestar' is used to describe a military ship in general, rather than a specific type of ship (Sort of like the USS in US Navy ships) . That said, I'm guessing there are also more than two classes of Battlestar (Mercury class and whatever class Galactica belongs to can't be the only two),and they're somehow organized into a type of numbered fleet command structure. An Admiral would command the numbered fleet, Commanders would command the smaller support craft and so on down the line. Above the numbered fleets is someone like Admiral Nagala from the mini, who commands the ENTIRE fleet and directly supervises the numbered fleet admirals. In Galactica's case, she was being prepared for decommissioning anyway, so she didn't fall under a numbered fleet, instead reporting directly to Fleet Headquarters on Picon in the mini. I know it's a bit long winded, but hopefully that sort of explains why there aren't 120 or so admirals in the fleet running around giving orders...:) [[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 15:07, 18 January 2006 (EST)

::: I think you're misunderstanding things. A battlestar ''is'' a type of ship. It's like saying destroyer, or aircraft carrier, though, so there can be different classes of battlestar. The name comes from what role it's intended to play in combat (a combination, actually, but a carrier being one of those roles). I believe our understanding is that a Battlestar Group (BSG) was a battlestar and its accompanying support fleet, very similar to the US Navy's Carrier Groups. So an admiral would probably actually be in charge of a few BSGs (with a Commander like Adama being in charge of his BSG alone) and you might have an admiral above that controling a group of lower admirals (think CINCLANT or CINCPAC) and you might not... Then you've got Nagala at the top telling ''everyone'' what to do. Anyway... a battlestar is not just any combat ship, a BSG is not a group of battlestars (but a group of ships with a battlestar in lead), and, no, all my ranting doesn't get us any closer or farther from the question of how many Admirals the COlonial Fleet had before the Attack. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:44, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:::: I think you and I just both said the same thing! And I wholeheartedly agree, we're no closer to a solution...[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 15:51, 18 January 2006 (EST)

==Insignia==
I'd advocate getting rid of the conjectural insignia. It would be nice if we could find actual screen captures to use instead of Winterfell's (admittedly nice looking) drawings, for credibility's sake. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:22, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:The conjectural ones, yes. The ones that seem to correspond with screen captures we do have, I think it's safe to keep. Is there anyone here with HD captures of the episodes? If so that would help greatly. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:53, 11 December 2005 (EST)

::You know what I think? We should have both. I really appriciate the clarity of the illustrations. Let us have both, side-by-side, so that readers may verify the accuracy, but also clearly see what the insigniae are. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:12, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:::Speaking of this, Major on down in the officers insignia are very hard to see. Can we get versions with more contrast or better colors or something?--[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 22:25, 11 December 2005 (EST)

==Tyrol & Hadrian==
Small point - Chief Tyrol and Sergeant Hadrian are assigned equivalent ranks in the table. During his arrest/detention and again during interview in Litmus the Chief puts great stress on calling Hadrian by her rank over and over, this always inplied to me that he considered himself above her in rank. Also if you watch it through on slow-mo zoomed in... (ok now i'm getting sad)... She has a "green diamond with a single stripe" and he has a "green diamond with single stripe and an arrowhead on each side" ie the ranks currently in the table as CPO for Tyrol and PO (of some grade) for Hadrian. - I didn't want to edit the main page as this is my first ever wiki experience. - Grible

:Thanks for your note, and your caution. Does anyone have screen captures of Tyrol & Hadrian's rank insignia? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:26, 29 January 2006 (EST)

::I disagree: listen and you'll see that he's saying like "It was ''the Sergeant'' that was responsible for that", etc. And because he was on trial, it's not like he'd be presumptuous enough to call her by name, but at the same time, he wanted to be condescending and shift the blame to her. As they've already stated on screen, Tyrol is the highest Non-Com Colonial Fleet officer, and Sergeant Hadrian is the highest-ranking Colonial Marine Non-Com; they've both got the highest Non-Com rank. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:32, 29 January 2006 (EST)

I've got screen captures to support my point now, I must needs be go to work however, how do i get the captures to you?
Also, Just because Hadrian is the ranking Marine aboard Galactica doesn't mean she has to hold the highest rank, Galactica is short of Marines from the start. I would suggest that a ship on it's way to decommission only has the bare minimum of marines under an appropriatly ranked person (Hadrian) to do marine stuff (guard things etc) onboard. No one expects them to need Marines for boarding/landing parties or to defend the ship. Furthermore, Hadrian is the Master-at-Arms, she's the ships policeman. If Galactica had a full unit of marines chances are there would be commissioned marine officers and a complete command structure. I suggest she is a relativly low ranked NCO with a handful of marines to act as a security force aboard a ship about to leave the service, then look what happened... - Grible

--No. "Sergeant" is the highest NCO rank, anything higher would be a commissioned officer. That's the same position Tyrol is in.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 10:54, 30 January 2006 (EST)

--yes and no, "Sergeant" used in conversation could mean any level of Sergeant. She could be anything from E4-E9 and still be legitimatly called Sergeant. Since I'm only (and how anal do i feel) suggesting she be bumped down to the PO grade she would still be a Sergeant just a lower ranked one.
Also... do Marines exist at all? Or is "Marine" a job title like "Machine Operator" or "Comms Tech"?
the ranks being assigned Marine sounding names but there being no "Marine Corp" as such? Are we blinded by the need to make this fit the US system?
However the point is I've got Screen captures from Litmus that show her coller insig as being what this page has defined as PO (1st or 2nd) she's in the wrong place whatever the reasoning behind Marines.(my understanding of wiki isn't up to linking to the image but it's in the list called TyrolHadrianinsig.jpg) - Grible
:Here you go with the pic. It's not a matter of shoehorning the US Marine rank system. Marines have a seperate rank system, we have two examples PFC Kelso and Sergeant Hadrian. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:19, 30 January 2006 (EST) [[Image:TyrolHadrianInsig.jpg|thumb|right|Tyrol/Hadrian Rank Comparison]]
::Oh, and in Final Cut, during Kelso's interview, the text reads PFC Scott Kelso, CMCR which would be the Colonial Marine Corps Reserve. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:22, 30 January 2006 (EST)
::: [[Scott Kelso]] is displayed pretty clearly as being PFC (see his character pic). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:24, 30 January 2006 (EST)
:::: I conceed on the existance of Marines! - Grible
:::::Thanks SV, I just got to that scene and was about to take a screenshot. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:31, 30 January 2006 (EST)

::::::You're arguing about changing the rank equivalence of characters, and you didn't even know that the [[Colonial Marine Corps]] existed? Please read this link, it has more info than I can list here. Officially, the [[Colonial Fleet]] ranks are as stated above Admiral, Commander...Lieutenant, Chief Petty Officer, etc. etc. Also officially, RDM has stated that the Marines don't use this rank structure, but an entirely different one. '''Comparing collar rank insignia is meaningless'''. Because they use an entirely separate rank structure, they almost certainly have different rank insignia. We know that "Sergeant" is the highest Marine non-com rank, Commander Adama stated in that episode that Sergeant Hadrian, their Master-At-Arms, was the highest ranking Marine on the ship, and we've seen other Marines who were "Sergeant"'s so I think she's the highest rank of "Sergeant". The reason Tyrol acts like she outranks him is because she's the ''de facto'' MP (military police) leader aboard ''Galactica'', and has been given greater responsibilities as a result. But they have equivalent rank.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:38, 30 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Maybe Sgt. Hadrian is the highest-ranking Marine on the ship because they just didn't have any Staff Sgts/Gunnery Sgts/First Sgts/Sgt Majors. If Galactica is the equivalent of an aircraft carrier they would just have a small detachment of marines—most of the marines could be aboard "amphibious ships" instead. Incidentally, the Marines could be a part of the Fleet just as, say, the Royal Marines are part of the Royal Navy, or the US Marines used to be a part of the US Navy until 1947. Was there a Colonial Army? [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:30, 30 January 2006 (EST)

I was dipping a toe about the colonial marines, my point was really that, did they have to be a seperate service? I've been slapped down, leave it be :)

IMHO Tyrol acts like he out ranks her (which is borne out by the coller pins). Else he should call her Sir/Ma'am not repeatedly use her rank and be borderline insulting to her. As above just because she is the highest ranking marine on the ship doesn't make her the highest rank avalible.
She is the Master-at-Arms even if she is equal in rank to the other sergeants, which I'm not arguing for (there are plenty of sergeant grades to go around), she would still be in charge.
On a more fundamental point i would also suggest comparing collar rank insignia is the only meaningful way of establishing relative rank. There really wouldn't be much point in having it otherwise. For instance all of the branches of the US army forces use a unified collar ranking system to streamline relative ranks, isn't that the point? The coller pins used are the old army ones but everyone uses them. It makes no sense for a Navel LtCmdr to wear Oak leaves (not very naval) but it draws the link to Army/Air/Marine Majors, this is the point no? - [[User:Grible|Grible]] 17:37, 30 January 2006 (EST) (look at me learning wiki!)

:At least in the US, enlisted are never called "sir", only commissioned officers. Notice how everyone calls Tyrol "Chief". Even in terms of officers, you can call an officer by his rank if he outranks you without offense—this happens all the time. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:38, 30 January 2006 (EST)

::In the following scene Socinus addresses Hadrian as Sir through-out - [[User:Grible|Grible]] 03:02, 31 January 2006 (EST)

:::Raw recruits (fresh out of boot) have the tendency to "sir" anything that moves. I guess it is better to throw in an extra "sir" than to miss one. The worst you'll usually get by "sir"ing an NCO is a gruff "Don't sir me, I work for a living." --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:47, 31 January 2006 (EST)

::::I agree with you, however since we arn't assuming this to function like our world (nods to Ricimer) i thought i'd mention it. It just seems to me to support my contention that Tyrol outranks Hadrian since he never Sir's her and Specialist Socinus, not a raw recruit?, does. However Ricimer is quite right and he could be panicing and Siring every thing that moves I suppose. - [[User:Grible|Grible]] 09:23, 31 January 2006 (EST)

:We should in no way "assume" that their military functions like ours, that they have equivalent rank insignia between different branches of the military: we shouldn't ''assumme'' that they function like the US military in that respect. Further, the ENTIRE scene is really tainted: Hadrian is suspecious of him and prying, and Tyrol (regardless of whether he is addressing a superior officer, or whether he is not) is just really nervous that they'll find out about Boomer and his relationship, so his smokescreen is to be really agitated and throw questions back at Hadrian, or more importantly, trying to shift ''blame'' on Hadrian by saying that securing the hatch was ''her'' job. This isn't a "normal" scene, and we should not base anything on it as a result.
:But basically, '''you have been "assuming" that calling her by her rank, "Sergeant" is somehow and insult, but we have seen nothing on screen to provide evidence for that'''. How do we know that they're ''that much'' like our own military, that such a thing would also be copied. Far too many assumptions. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:42, 30 January 2006 (EST)

:If anyone cares about my opinion: I think that, without any other evidence, we should assume the insignias represent equal ranks, as they do in practically all terrestrial militaries, and that therefore it would be prudent, without any other evidence, to assume that Hadrian is a Staff Sergeant. I don't see this as presenting a problem with regards to the events in Litmus or anything else. But: does anyone have any caps of insignias of any other Marines? Kelso or Venner, for example? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 19:18, 30 January 2006 (EST)

:: I concur. It makes complete sense to assume that the rank insigniae are the same across services. Otherwise, why have the top Sergeant rank look exactly like the insignia for a lesser Naval rank? That's just confusing. If they weren't meant to show equivalencies, I'd expect the insigniae to look quite different. However, unless we're ''certain'' that this is the correct insignia for Hadrian, I'm not sure we should go on it. It's very, very easy to mess up rank pips and all that. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:32, 30 January 2006 (EST)

: I agree we shouldn't be assuming things based on the US militeary (a 9 grade enlisted/NCO structure in the first place...) I dragged the Naval coller pin thing into this to make the point Redwall made for me above. I take onboard that this is not a normal scene in the "court". However his switch in tone and phrasing on the hanger deck before does still suggest to me he is stressing her rank because he has that over her. The shifting the blame point is true and isn't affected, if anything by stressing she is lesser in rank he's trying to belittle/intimidate her which to me does tie in with his shift of blame. (It's to Hadrian's credit she doesn't bend!) - [[User:Grible|Grible]] 09:23, 31 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)/Archive3

2006-01-31T08:02:48Z

Grible:

Isn't Cally referred to as a Specialist at some point? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:32, 29 August 2005 (EDT)

Definitely. There's a time when the Chief tells the "Specialist" to go do something. -QuintusCinna.

Well, that just fracks up the whole thing then. Not only do we have Cally in the wrong place and we're missing a rank, but it's an Army/Air Force rank for a Fleet member. :( (On the plus side, Specialists are E-4s though IIRC.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:38, 29 August 2005 (EDT)

Let's be open with the Chief's use of "specialist". It might have been relative to her MOS, though I doubt it. Such as tech specialist, deck specialist, things of that sort. In the military we often called them specialists too, though I do believe, just like you, that the chief was meaning it in the context of rank. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]

==Abbreviations==
Here is the list of abbreviations I wrote for the ranks here. The enlisted ranks for Marines are still a little rough though, the "all caps" ranks are in the US Army style, others use lower case, eg Master Sergeant: MSG, MSgt.

Officer 
O-11 Fleet Admiral No abbrev., FAdm could work 
O-10 Admiral Adm 
O-9 Vice Admiral VAdm 
O-8 Rear Admiral RAdm 
O-7 Commander Cdr 
O-6 Colonel Col 
O-5 Major Maj 
O-4 Captain Capt 
O-3 Lieutenant Lt 
O-2 Lieutenant Junior Grade LtJG 
O-1 Ensign Ens 

Enlisted 
E-9 Master Chief Petty Officer MCPO 
E-8 Senior Chief Petty Officer SCPO 
E-7 Chief Petty Officer CPO 
E-6 Petty Officer 1st Class PO1 
E-5 Petty Officer 2nd Class PO2 
E-4 Petty Officer 3rd Class PO3 
E-3 Crewman CN (based on US Navy Seaman SN) 
E-2 Crewman Apprentice CA ("") 
E-1 Crewman Recruit CR ("") 

Marine 
E-9 Sergeant Major SGM 
E-8 Senior Master Sergeant/Master Sergeant SMSgt/MSG 
E-7 Master Sergeant/Sergeant 1st Class MSG/SFC 
E-6 Staff Sergeant SSG 
E-5 Sergeant SGT 
E-4 Corporal CPL 
E-3 Private 1st Class PFC 
E-2 Private 2nd Class PV2 
E-1 Private Recruit PVR 
--[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:33, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

: I went ahead and formatted your post, Talos, so that it was easier to read. I don't think I broke anything, did I? Anyway, I think the all-caps ranks look loud. I know that's kind of an artifact of the internet, but still... I'd rather just cap the first letter of a word from an abbreviation. Thus "PFC" is fine because each of those are the first letter of a word. On the other hand, I'd rather "Sgt." than "SGT". Also, "Cpt." and "Cmdr." are more intuitive to me, but I don't know if I made those up or ''where'' they came from. --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:03, 15 September 2005 (EDT)
::Thanks for the formatting, that's how it was whem I typed it in notepad. I see how that works now. Like I said, the reason they are all caps is that it is based on the Army enlisted structure. I didn't go with the Marine Corps structure because it's missing the two ranks unique to the MC, Lance Corporal and Gunnery Sergeant. Here is a link about the US Military ranks: [http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/insignias/officers.html]. There is a link on top to the enlisted ranks. What is interesting is the way the US Navy O-6 rank's head is turned compared to the others. Also, Capt and Cdr are how the USN abbreviates Captain and Commander. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 07:00, 15 September 2005 (EDT)
:::I wanted to add something else, the CAPS are only used in forms, charts, etc. When written with the name it is normal case, so Hadrian,... Rank: SGT, but ...Sgt. Hadrian. I can't believe I forgot this. I must be slipping. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

== Adama ≠ Fleet Admrial ==

: ''Following was moved from [[User talk:Joe.Beaudoin]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] at 21:45, 17 October 2005 (EDT).''

Noticed something while browsing and thought I might mention it...

On the page for Military Ranks (RDM), the supposition is that the rank of Commander (i.e. Cdr. Adama) is equivalent to a US Navy Rear Admiral. In my extensive reading, I have found that there are a few reasons why Commander is not equal to a Rear Admiral or Commodore.

Battlestar Groups are roughly analogous to Carrier Battle Groups, the current major organizational format for the US Navy. CBGs are commanded as an entire body by a Rear Admiral Lower Half, while the carrier itself is commanded by a Captain (O-6). It is possible that, while the vessel was in lay-up at the Scorpion Ship Yards, the Pegasus was part of a functioning BSG. This would explain why Adm. Nelena Cain is in command of the Pegasus. Meanwhile, the Galactica was quite alone at the beginning of the mini-series, and on the verge of decommissioning and conversion. Adama's rank could be considered analogous to an O-6 since the Rear Admiral LH in charge of BSG-75 would have moved to another BSG while Commander (Captain) Adama took the Galactica into retirement. In a footnote in an earlier draft of the page, it was stated that since Adama had the authority to assume command of the fleet (Miniseries), he would have to carry flag rank. This was likely a plot device, and it was never necessary to justify it, since no other Colonial Fleet vessel survived (excepting Pegasus, which was most likely already gone). In the modern US Navy, it would be highly improbable for the Admiral in charge of a CBG to assume command of the entire Navy.

S. Price

:I expect this would be more useful on [[Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)]] than on Joe's talk page. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:24, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

==How Many Admirals==

Although Nagala and Cain are both referred to as simply "admiral", I don't think that's presents strong evidence for them all being of the same rank, distinguished only by seniority. In the real world, both a one-star and four-star Admiral are referred to as simply "Admiral", unless a precise distinction must be made - not the case in the heat of combat, when Nagala's identity and rank would have been quite well known anyway. Furthermore, RDM's comment that Cain was only one promotion up from Commander strongly indicates that there were additional ranks above her.

The methodology of this page to date has been to identify BSG universe ranks with their (rough) NATO-equivalents. This seems sensible to me, since no precise overview of the BSG rank system has been given yet, and it makes sense to evaluate new information with regard to an existing military structure with which the show's creators are familiar. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:39, 7 December 2005 (EST)

::I agree. I can't imagine a "promotion date" hierarchy working very well for establishing seniority between fleet commanders. I don't know how common inter-fleet operations would be, but there would be a lot more friction if equal ranked admirals were issuing orders to each other. While a twelve-admiral "quorum of twelve" would be a very democratic and fair sounding concept, military thinking tends to prefer hierarchy to committee, especially in cases where decision need to be made quickly. I wonder if Cain's insignia might provide any insight into the ranks (and whether there might be higher ones). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:28, 7 December 2005 (EST)

We never see Cain referred to as a "rear admiral" either. Looking at the insignia on the page, there's only one Admiral insignia anyway—there is absolutely no evidence anywhere that rear admirals and vice admirals even exist in Battlestar Galactica. Moore himself only mentions one grade of "admiral" in his blog entry. So essentially what's happening is that people are making things up and pretending it's in the canon just to make Colonial Fleet correspond perfectly with the US Navy.

In response to "I can't imagine a "promotion date" hierarchy working very well for establishing seniority between fleet commanders.", the fact is, the real military uses that hierarchy consciously. For instance, the seven US generals and admirals promoted to five star rank in 1944 were deliberately promoted on consecutive days—Leahy in the 15th, Marshall on the 16th, King on the 17th, MacArthur on the 18th, Nimitz on the 19th, Eisenhower on the 20th, and Arnold on the 21st of December—to allow for such a hierarchy.

More importantly, Colonial Fleet was probably a small and shrinking military force anyway, largely because they had nothing to do—the colonies were united and there was no foreign threat for over 40 years. Furthermore, there can't have possibly been that many ships in the fleet anyway, if Galactica and Pegasus were the only survivors. Four grades of admiral exist are necessary when you're the United States Navy and you have 300 ships. We have no evidence Colonial Fleet was that large. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:17, 7 December 2005 (EST)

:1.) I can't speak for the source on those insignia myself - did [[User:Winterfell]] every say where he found them?

:2.) We know there were at least 120 battlestars, next to the US Navy's 12 aircraft carriers, so I have difficulty with that argument.
::At which point? The Cylon war was 40 years ago. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:56, 7 December 2005 (EST)
:::At the time of the Cylon Attack. When Adama tells Starbuck that 30 battlestars have been destroyed, she replies in shock that "that's a quarter of the fleet!". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:15, 7 December 2005 (EST)
::::OK. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:36, 7 December 2005 (EST)

:3.) I don't think we're pretending anything is in Canon here, and if it looks that way to you, I don't mind making a clearer distinction. The fact is simply that we don't know much about the Colonial Navy, and that comparing the ranks observed on the show to the ranks of a well-documented force is an instructive exercise. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:28, 7 December 2005 (EST)

::Your clarifications look good to me, Philwelch. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:34, 7 December 2005 (EST)
I don't know if it means anything but in Pegasus, the DRADIS screen after they identify the Pegasus has two stars next to the Peggie's symbol. Maybe she's a two-star admiral. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:17, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:Here's what I mean. Note the stars (they are more blob-like here but are stars) next to the Pegasus on the right and how the identically targeted Galactica has none. Also, note that the Pegasus can ID the Gal's Vipers but the Galactica doesn't show the four Pegasus Viper's callsigns. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 15:54, 28 December 2005 (EST)
[[Image:GalPegDradis.JPG|thumb|DRADIS displays, Galactica and Pegasus ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]])]]
::Veering off topic, but Kat is apparently flying "Viper 24" in that scene. Have we seen two-digit numbers used for Vipers elsewhere? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 28 December 2005 (EST)
:::Not that I know of. I was wondering about this earlier, maybe the two digit number is shorthand eg. her Viper is 5624NC or something. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:34, 28 December 2005 (EST)

:: I'm assuming this is a moot point here now, but I'll chime in anyway. Of the 120 or so Battlestars that were commissioned at the time of the attacks on the colonies, I'd say we're missing some information to make an educated guess as to who commands what. Starbuck mentioned 'fleet', so I'm working under the assumption that the word 'Battlestar' is used to describe a military ship in general, rather than a specific type of ship (Sort of like the USS in US Navy ships) . That said, I'm guessing there are also more than two classes of Battlestar (Mercury class and whatever class Galactica belongs to can't be the only two),and they're somehow organized into a type of numbered fleet command structure. An Admiral would command the numbered fleet, Commanders would command the smaller support craft and so on down the line. Above the numbered fleets is someone like Admiral Nagala from the mini, who commands the ENTIRE fleet and directly supervises the numbered fleet admirals. In Galactica's case, she was being prepared for decommissioning anyway, so she didn't fall under a numbered fleet, instead reporting directly to Fleet Headquarters on Picon in the mini. I know it's a bit long winded, but hopefully that sort of explains why there aren't 120 or so admirals in the fleet running around giving orders...:) [[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 15:07, 18 January 2006 (EST)

::: I think you're misunderstanding things. A battlestar ''is'' a type of ship. It's like saying destroyer, or aircraft carrier, though, so there can be different classes of battlestar. The name comes from what role it's intended to play in combat (a combination, actually, but a carrier being one of those roles). I believe our understanding is that a Battlestar Group (BSG) was a battlestar and its accompanying support fleet, very similar to the US Navy's Carrier Groups. So an admiral would probably actually be in charge of a few BSGs (with a Commander like Adama being in charge of his BSG alone) and you might have an admiral above that controling a group of lower admirals (think CINCLANT or CINCPAC) and you might not... Then you've got Nagala at the top telling ''everyone'' what to do. Anyway... a battlestar is not just any combat ship, a BSG is not a group of battlestars (but a group of ships with a battlestar in lead), and, no, all my ranting doesn't get us any closer or farther from the question of how many Admirals the COlonial Fleet had before the Attack. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:44, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:::: I think you and I just both said the same thing! And I wholeheartedly agree, we're no closer to a solution...[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 15:51, 18 January 2006 (EST)

==Insignia==
I'd advocate getting rid of the conjectural insignia. It would be nice if we could find actual screen captures to use instead of Winterfell's (admittedly nice looking) drawings, for credibility's sake. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:22, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:The conjectural ones, yes. The ones that seem to correspond with screen captures we do have, I think it's safe to keep. Is there anyone here with HD captures of the episodes? If so that would help greatly. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:53, 11 December 2005 (EST)

::You know what I think? We should have both. I really appriciate the clarity of the illustrations. Let us have both, side-by-side, so that readers may verify the accuracy, but also clearly see what the insigniae are. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:12, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:::Speaking of this, Major on down in the officers insignia are very hard to see. Can we get versions with more contrast or better colors or something?--[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 22:25, 11 December 2005 (EST)

==Tyrol & Hadrian==
Small point - Chief Tyrol and Sergeant Hadrian are assigned equivalent ranks in the table. During his arrest/detention and again during interview in Litmus the Chief puts great stress on calling Hadrian by her rank over and over, this always inplied to me that he considered himself above her in rank. Also if you watch it through on slow-mo zoomed in... (ok now i'm getting sad)... She has a "green diamond with a single stripe" and he has a "green diamond with single stripe and an arrowhead on each side" ie the ranks currently in the table as CPO for Tyrol and PO (of some grade) for Hadrian. - I didn't want to edit the main page as this is my first ever wiki experience. - Grible

:Thanks for your note, and your caution. Does anyone have screen captures of Tyrol & Hadrian's rank insignia? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:26, 29 January 2006 (EST)

::I disagree: listen and you'll see that he's saying like "It was ''the Sergeant'' that was responsible for that", etc. And because he was on trial, it's not like he'd be presumptuous enough to call her by name, but at the same time, he wanted to be condescending and shift the blame to her. As they've already stated on screen, Tyrol is the highest Non-Com Colonial Fleet officer, and Sergeant Hadrian is the highest-ranking Colonial Marine Non-Com; they've both got the highest Non-Com rank. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:32, 29 January 2006 (EST)

I've got screen captures to support my point now, I must needs be go to work however, how do i get the captures to you?
Also, Just because Hadrian is the ranking Marine aboard Galactica doesn't mean she has to hold the highest rank, Galactica is short of Marines from the start. I would suggest that a ship on it's way to decommission only has the bare minimum of marines under an appropriatly ranked person (Hadrian) to do marine stuff (guard things etc) onboard. No one expects them to need Marines for boarding/landing parties or to defend the ship. Furthermore, Hadrian is the Master-at-Arms, she's the ships policeman. If Galactica had a full unit of marines chances are there would be commissioned marine officers and a complete command structure. I suggest she is a relativly low ranked NCO with a handful of marines to act as a security force aboard a ship about to leave the service, then look what happened... - Grible

--No. "Sergeant" is the highest NCO rank, anything higher would be a commissioned officer. That's the same position Tyrol is in.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 10:54, 30 January 2006 (EST)

--yes and no, "Sergeant" used in conversation could mean any level of Sergeant. She could be anything from E4-E9 and still be legitimatly called Sergeant. Since I'm only (and how anal do i feel) suggesting she be bumped down to the PO grade she would still be a Sergeant just a lower ranked one.
Also... do Marines exist at all? Or is "Marine" a job title like "Machine Operator" or "Comms Tech"?
the ranks being assigned Marine sounding names but there being no "Marine Corp" as such? Are we blinded by the need to make this fit the US system?
However the point is I've got Screen captures from Litmus that show her coller insig as being what this page has defined as PO (1st or 2nd) she's in the wrong place whatever the reasoning behind Marines.(my understanding of wiki isn't up to linking to the image but it's in the list called TyrolHadrianinsig.jpg) - Grible
:Here you go with the pic. It's not a matter of shoehorning the US Marine rank system. Marines have a seperate rank system, we have two examples PFC Kelso and Sergeant Hadrian. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:19, 30 January 2006 (EST) [[Image:TyrolHadrianInsig.jpg|thumb|right|Tyrol/Hadrian Rank Comparison]]
::Oh, and in Final Cut, during Kelso's interview, the text reads PFC Scott Kelso, CMCR which would be the Colonial Marine Corps Reserve. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:22, 30 January 2006 (EST)
::: [[Scott Kelso]] is displayed pretty clearly as being PFC (see his character pic). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:24, 30 January 2006 (EST)
:::: I conceed on the existance of Marines! - Grible
:::::Thanks SV, I just got to that scene and was about to take a screenshot. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:31, 30 January 2006 (EST)

::::::You're arguing about changing the rank equivalence of characters, and you didn't even know that the [[Colonial Marine Corps]] existed? Please read this link, it has more info than I can list here. Officially, the [[Colonial Fleet]] ranks are as stated above Admiral, Commander...Lieutenant, Chief Petty Officer, etc. etc. Also officially, RDM has stated that the Marines don't use this rank structure, but an entirely different one. '''Comparing collar rank insignia is meaningless'''. Because they use an entirely separate rank structure, they almost certainly have different rank insignia. We know that "Sergeant" is the highest Marine non-com rank, Commander Adama stated in that episode that Sergeant Hadrian, their Master-At-Arms, was the highest ranking Marine on the ship, and we've seen other Marines who were "Sergeant"'s so I think she's the highest rank of "Sergeant". The reason Tyrol acts like she outranks him is because she's the ''de facto'' MP (military police) leader aboard ''Galactica'', and has been given greater responsibilities as a result. But they have equivalent rank.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:38, 30 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Maybe Sgt. Hadrian is the highest-ranking Marine on the ship because they just didn't have any Staff Sgts/Gunnery Sgts/First Sgts/Sgt Majors. If Galactica is the equivalent of an aircraft carrier they would just have a small detachment of marines—most of the marines could be aboard "amphibious ships" instead. Incidentally, the Marines could be a part of the Fleet just as, say, the Royal Marines are part of the Royal Navy, or the US Marines used to be a part of the US Navy until 1947. Was there a Colonial Army? [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:30, 30 January 2006 (EST)

I was dipping a toe about the colonial marines, my point was really that, did they have to be a seperate service? I've been slapped down, leave it be :)

IMHO Tyrol acts like he out ranks her (which is borne out by the coller pins). Else he should call her Sir/Ma'am not repeatedly use her rank and be borderline insulting to her. As above just because she is the highest ranking marine on the ship doesn't make her the highest rank avalible.
She is the Master-at-Arms even if she is equal in rank to the other sergeants, which I'm not arguing for (there are plenty of sergeant grades to go around), she would still be in charge.
On a more fundamental point i would also suggest comparing collar rank insignia is the only meaningful way of establishing relative rank. There really wouldn't be much point in having it otherwise. For instance all of the branches of the US army forces use a unified collar ranking system to streamline relative ranks, isn't that the point? The coller pins used are the old army ones but everyone uses them. It makes no sense for a Navel LtCmdr to wear Oak leaves (not very naval) but it draws the link to Army/Air/Marine Majors, this is the point no? - [[User:Grible|Grible]] 17:37, 30 January 2006 (EST) (look at me learning wiki!)

:At least in the US, enlisted are never called "sir", only commissioned officers. Notice how everyone calls Tyrol "Chief". Even in terms of officers, you can call an officer by his rank if he outranks you without offense—this happens all the time. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:38, 30 January 2006 (EST)

::In the following scene Socinus addresses Hadrian as Sir through-out - [[User:Grible|Grible]] 03:02, 31 January 2006 (EST)

:We should in no way "assume" that their military functions like ours, that they have equivalent rank insignia between different branches of the military: we shouldn't ''assumme'' that they function like the US military in that respect. Further, the ENTIRE scene is really tainted: Hadrian is suspecious of him and prying, and Tyrol (regardless of whether he is addressing a superior officer, or whether he is not) is just really nervous that they'll find out about Boomer and his relationship, so his smokescreen is to be really agitated and throw questions back at Hadrian, or more importantly, trying to shift ''blame'' on Hadrian by saying that securing the hatch was ''her'' job. This isn't a "normal" scene, and we should not base anything on it as a result.
:But basically, '''you have been "assuming" that calling her by her rank, "Sergeant" is somehow and insult, but we have seen nothing on screen to provide evidence for that'''. How do we know that they're ''that much'' like our own military, that such a thing would also be copied. Far too many assumptions. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:42, 30 January 2006 (EST)

:If anyone cares about my opinion: I think that, without any other evidence, we should assume the insignias represent equal ranks, as they do in practically all terrestrial militaries, and that therefore it would be prudent, without any other evidence, to assume that Hadrian is a Staff Sergeant. I don't see this as presenting a problem with regards to the events in Litmus or anything else. But: does anyone have any caps of insignias of any other Marines? Kelso or Venner, for example? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 19:18, 30 January 2006 (EST)

:: I concur. It makes complete sense to assume that the rank insigniae are the same across services. Otherwise, why have the top Sergeant rank look exactly like the insignia for a lesser Naval rank? That's just confusing. If they weren't meant to show equivalencies, I'd expect the insigniae to look quite different. However, unless we're ''certain'' that this is the correct insignia for Hadrian, I'm not sure we should go on it. It's very, very easy to mess up rank pips and all that. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:32, 30 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)/Archive3

2006-01-30T22:37:32Z

Grible:

Isn't Cally referred to as a Specialist at some point? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:32, 29 August 2005 (EDT)

Definitely. There's a time when the Chief tells the "Specialist" to go do something. -QuintusCinna.

Well, that just fracks up the whole thing then. Not only do we have Cally in the wrong place and we're missing a rank, but it's an Army/Air Force rank for a Fleet member. :( (On the plus side, Specialists are E-4s though IIRC.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:38, 29 August 2005 (EDT)

Let's be open with the Chief's use of "specialist". It might have been relative to her MOS, though I doubt it. Such as tech specialist, deck specialist, things of that sort. In the military we often called them specialists too, though I do believe, just like you, that the chief was meaning it in the context of rank. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]

==Abbreviations==
Here is the list of abbreviations I wrote for the ranks here. The enlisted ranks for Marines are still a little rough though, the "all caps" ranks are in the US Army style, others use lower case, eg Master Sergeant: MSG, MSgt.

Officer 
O-11 Fleet Admiral No abbrev., FAdm could work 
O-10 Admiral Adm 
O-9 Vice Admiral VAdm 
O-8 Rear Admiral RAdm 
O-7 Commander Cdr 
O-6 Colonel Col 
O-5 Major Maj 
O-4 Captain Capt 
O-3 Lieutenant Lt 
O-2 Lieutenant Junior Grade LtJG 
O-1 Ensign Ens 

Enlisted 
E-9 Master Chief Petty Officer MCPO 
E-8 Senior Chief Petty Officer SCPO 
E-7 Chief Petty Officer CPO 
E-6 Petty Officer 1st Class PO1 
E-5 Petty Officer 2nd Class PO2 
E-4 Petty Officer 3rd Class PO3 
E-3 Crewman CN (based on US Navy Seaman SN) 
E-2 Crewman Apprentice CA ("") 
E-1 Crewman Recruit CR ("") 

Marine 
E-9 Sergeant Major SGM 
E-8 Senior Master Sergeant/Master Sergeant SMSgt/MSG 
E-7 Master Sergeant/Sergeant 1st Class MSG/SFC 
E-6 Staff Sergeant SSG 
E-5 Sergeant SGT 
E-4 Corporal CPL 
E-3 Private 1st Class PFC 
E-2 Private 2nd Class PV2 
E-1 Private Recruit PVR 
--[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:33, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

: I went ahead and formatted your post, Talos, so that it was easier to read. I don't think I broke anything, did I? Anyway, I think the all-caps ranks look loud. I know that's kind of an artifact of the internet, but still... I'd rather just cap the first letter of a word from an abbreviation. Thus "PFC" is fine because each of those are the first letter of a word. On the other hand, I'd rather "Sgt." than "SGT". Also, "Cpt." and "Cmdr." are more intuitive to me, but I don't know if I made those up or ''where'' they came from. --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:03, 15 September 2005 (EDT)
::Thanks for the formatting, that's how it was whem I typed it in notepad. I see how that works now. Like I said, the reason they are all caps is that it is based on the Army enlisted structure. I didn't go with the Marine Corps structure because it's missing the two ranks unique to the MC, Lance Corporal and Gunnery Sergeant. Here is a link about the US Military ranks: [http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/insignias/officers.html]. There is a link on top to the enlisted ranks. What is interesting is the way the US Navy O-6 rank's head is turned compared to the others. Also, Capt and Cdr are how the USN abbreviates Captain and Commander. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 07:00, 15 September 2005 (EDT)
:::I wanted to add something else, the CAPS are only used in forms, charts, etc. When written with the name it is normal case, so Hadrian,... Rank: SGT, but ...Sgt. Hadrian. I can't believe I forgot this. I must be slipping. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

== Adama ≠ Fleet Admrial ==

: ''Following was moved from [[User talk:Joe.Beaudoin]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] at 21:45, 17 October 2005 (EDT).''

Noticed something while browsing and thought I might mention it...

On the page for Military Ranks (RDM), the supposition is that the rank of Commander (i.e. Cdr. Adama) is equivalent to a US Navy Rear Admiral. In my extensive reading, I have found that there are a few reasons why Commander is not equal to a Rear Admiral or Commodore.

Battlestar Groups are roughly analogous to Carrier Battle Groups, the current major organizational format for the US Navy. CBGs are commanded as an entire body by a Rear Admiral Lower Half, while the carrier itself is commanded by a Captain (O-6). It is possible that, while the vessel was in lay-up at the Scorpion Ship Yards, the Pegasus was part of a functioning BSG. This would explain why Adm. Nelena Cain is in command of the Pegasus. Meanwhile, the Galactica was quite alone at the beginning of the mini-series, and on the verge of decommissioning and conversion. Adama's rank could be considered analogous to an O-6 since the Rear Admiral LH in charge of BSG-75 would have moved to another BSG while Commander (Captain) Adama took the Galactica into retirement. In a footnote in an earlier draft of the page, it was stated that since Adama had the authority to assume command of the fleet (Miniseries), he would have to carry flag rank. This was likely a plot device, and it was never necessary to justify it, since no other Colonial Fleet vessel survived (excepting Pegasus, which was most likely already gone). In the modern US Navy, it would be highly improbable for the Admiral in charge of a CBG to assume command of the entire Navy.

S. Price

:I expect this would be more useful on [[Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)]] than on Joe's talk page. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:24, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

==How Many Admirals==

Although Nagala and Cain are both referred to as simply "admiral", I don't think that's presents strong evidence for them all being of the same rank, distinguished only by seniority. In the real world, both a one-star and four-star Admiral are referred to as simply "Admiral", unless a precise distinction must be made - not the case in the heat of combat, when Nagala's identity and rank would have been quite well known anyway. Furthermore, RDM's comment that Cain was only one promotion up from Commander strongly indicates that there were additional ranks above her.

The methodology of this page to date has been to identify BSG universe ranks with their (rough) NATO-equivalents. This seems sensible to me, since no precise overview of the BSG rank system has been given yet, and it makes sense to evaluate new information with regard to an existing military structure with which the show's creators are familiar. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:39, 7 December 2005 (EST)

::I agree. I can't imagine a "promotion date" hierarchy working very well for establishing seniority between fleet commanders. I don't know how common inter-fleet operations would be, but there would be a lot more friction if equal ranked admirals were issuing orders to each other. While a twelve-admiral "quorum of twelve" would be a very democratic and fair sounding concept, military thinking tends to prefer hierarchy to committee, especially in cases where decision need to be made quickly. I wonder if Cain's insignia might provide any insight into the ranks (and whether there might be higher ones). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:28, 7 December 2005 (EST)

We never see Cain referred to as a "rear admiral" either. Looking at the insignia on the page, there's only one Admiral insignia anyway—there is absolutely no evidence anywhere that rear admirals and vice admirals even exist in Battlestar Galactica. Moore himself only mentions one grade of "admiral" in his blog entry. So essentially what's happening is that people are making things up and pretending it's in the canon just to make Colonial Fleet correspond perfectly with the US Navy.

In response to "I can't imagine a "promotion date" hierarchy working very well for establishing seniority between fleet commanders.", the fact is, the real military uses that hierarchy consciously. For instance, the seven US generals and admirals promoted to five star rank in 1944 were deliberately promoted on consecutive days—Leahy in the 15th, Marshall on the 16th, King on the 17th, MacArthur on the 18th, Nimitz on the 19th, Eisenhower on the 20th, and Arnold on the 21st of December—to allow for such a hierarchy.

More importantly, Colonial Fleet was probably a small and shrinking military force anyway, largely because they had nothing to do—the colonies were united and there was no foreign threat for over 40 years. Furthermore, there can't have possibly been that many ships in the fleet anyway, if Galactica and Pegasus were the only survivors. Four grades of admiral exist are necessary when you're the United States Navy and you have 300 ships. We have no evidence Colonial Fleet was that large. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:17, 7 December 2005 (EST)

:1.) I can't speak for the source on those insignia myself - did [[User:Winterfell]] every say where he found them?

:2.) We know there were at least 120 battlestars, next to the US Navy's 12 aircraft carriers, so I have difficulty with that argument.
::At which point? The Cylon war was 40 years ago. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:56, 7 December 2005 (EST)
:::At the time of the Cylon Attack. When Adama tells Starbuck that 30 battlestars have been destroyed, she replies in shock that "that's a quarter of the fleet!". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:15, 7 December 2005 (EST)
::::OK. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:36, 7 December 2005 (EST)

:3.) I don't think we're pretending anything is in Canon here, and if it looks that way to you, I don't mind making a clearer distinction. The fact is simply that we don't know much about the Colonial Navy, and that comparing the ranks observed on the show to the ranks of a well-documented force is an instructive exercise. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:28, 7 December 2005 (EST)

::Your clarifications look good to me, Philwelch. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:34, 7 December 2005 (EST)
I don't know if it means anything but in Pegasus, the DRADIS screen after they identify the Pegasus has two stars next to the Peggie's symbol. Maybe she's a two-star admiral. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:17, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:Here's what I mean. Note the stars (they are more blob-like here but are stars) next to the Pegasus on the right and how the identically targeted Galactica has none. Also, note that the Pegasus can ID the Gal's Vipers but the Galactica doesn't show the four Pegasus Viper's callsigns. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 15:54, 28 December 2005 (EST)
[[Image:GalPegDradis.JPG|thumb|DRADIS displays, Galactica and Pegasus ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]])]]
::Veering off topic, but Kat is apparently flying "Viper 24" in that scene. Have we seen two-digit numbers used for Vipers elsewhere? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 28 December 2005 (EST)
:::Not that I know of. I was wondering about this earlier, maybe the two digit number is shorthand eg. her Viper is 5624NC or something. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:34, 28 December 2005 (EST)

:: I'm assuming this is a moot point here now, but I'll chime in anyway. Of the 120 or so Battlestars that were commissioned at the time of the attacks on the colonies, I'd say we're missing some information to make an educated guess as to who commands what. Starbuck mentioned 'fleet', so I'm working under the assumption that the word 'Battlestar' is used to describe a military ship in general, rather than a specific type of ship (Sort of like the USS in US Navy ships) . That said, I'm guessing there are also more than two classes of Battlestar (Mercury class and whatever class Galactica belongs to can't be the only two),and they're somehow organized into a type of numbered fleet command structure. An Admiral would command the numbered fleet, Commanders would command the smaller support craft and so on down the line. Above the numbered fleets is someone like Admiral Nagala from the mini, who commands the ENTIRE fleet and directly supervises the numbered fleet admirals. In Galactica's case, she was being prepared for decommissioning anyway, so she didn't fall under a numbered fleet, instead reporting directly to Fleet Headquarters on Picon in the mini. I know it's a bit long winded, but hopefully that sort of explains why there aren't 120 or so admirals in the fleet running around giving orders...:) [[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 15:07, 18 January 2006 (EST)

::: I think you're misunderstanding things. A battlestar ''is'' a type of ship. It's like saying destroyer, or aircraft carrier, though, so there can be different classes of battlestar. The name comes from what role it's intended to play in combat (a combination, actually, but a carrier being one of those roles). I believe our understanding is that a Battlestar Group (BSG) was a battlestar and its accompanying support fleet, very similar to the US Navy's Carrier Groups. So an admiral would probably actually be in charge of a few BSGs (with a Commander like Adama being in charge of his BSG alone) and you might have an admiral above that controling a group of lower admirals (think CINCLANT or CINCPAC) and you might not... Then you've got Nagala at the top telling ''everyone'' what to do. Anyway... a battlestar is not just any combat ship, a BSG is not a group of battlestars (but a group of ships with a battlestar in lead), and, no, all my ranting doesn't get us any closer or farther from the question of how many Admirals the COlonial Fleet had before the Attack. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:44, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:::: I think you and I just both said the same thing! And I wholeheartedly agree, we're no closer to a solution...[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 15:51, 18 January 2006 (EST)

==Insignia==
I'd advocate getting rid of the conjectural insignia. It would be nice if we could find actual screen captures to use instead of Winterfell's (admittedly nice looking) drawings, for credibility's sake. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:22, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:The conjectural ones, yes. The ones that seem to correspond with screen captures we do have, I think it's safe to keep. Is there anyone here with HD captures of the episodes? If so that would help greatly. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:53, 11 December 2005 (EST)

::You know what I think? We should have both. I really appriciate the clarity of the illustrations. Let us have both, side-by-side, so that readers may verify the accuracy, but also clearly see what the insigniae are. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:12, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:::Speaking of this, Major on down in the officers insignia are very hard to see. Can we get versions with more contrast or better colors or something?--[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 22:25, 11 December 2005 (EST)

==Tyrol & Hadrian==
Small point - Chief Tyrol and Sergeant Hadrian are assigned equivalent ranks in the table. During his arrest/detention and again during interview in Litmus the Chief puts great stress on calling Hadrian by her rank over and over, this always inplied to me that he considered himself above her in rank. Also if you watch it through on slow-mo zoomed in... (ok now i'm getting sad)... She has a "green diamond with a single stripe" and he has a "green diamond with single stripe and an arrowhead on each side" ie the ranks currently in the table as CPO for Tyrol and PO (of some grade) for Hadrian. - I didn't want to edit the main page as this is my first ever wiki experience. - Grible

:Thanks for your note, and your caution. Does anyone have screen captures of Tyrol & Hadrian's rank insignia? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:26, 29 January 2006 (EST)

::I disagree: listen and you'll see that he's saying like "It was ''the Sergeant'' that was responsible for that", etc. And because he was on trial, it's not like he'd be presumptuous enough to call her by name, but at the same time, he wanted to be condescending and shift the blame to her. As they've already stated on screen, Tyrol is the highest Non-Com Colonial Fleet officer, and Sergeant Hadrian is the highest-ranking Colonial Marine Non-Com; they've both got the highest Non-Com rank. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:32, 29 January 2006 (EST)

I've got screen captures to support my point now, I must needs be go to work however, how do i get the captures to you?
Also, Just because Hadrian is the ranking Marine aboard Galactica doesn't mean she has to hold the highest rank, Galactica is short of Marines from the start. I would suggest that a ship on it's way to decommission only has the bare minimum of marines under an appropriatly ranked person (Hadrian) to do marine stuff (guard things etc) onboard. No one expects them to need Marines for boarding/landing parties or to defend the ship. Furthermore, Hadrian is the Master-at-Arms, she's the ships policeman. If Galactica had a full unit of marines chances are there would be commissioned marine officers and a complete command structure. I suggest she is a relativly low ranked NCO with a handful of marines to act as a security force aboard a ship about to leave the service, then look what happened... - Grible

--No. "Sergeant" is the highest NCO rank, anything higher would be a commissioned officer. That's the same position Tyrol is in.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 10:54, 30 January 2006 (EST)

--yes and no, "Sergeant" used in conversation could mean any level of Sergeant. She could be anything from E4-E9 and still be legitimatly called Sergeant. Since I'm only (and how anal do i feel) suggesting she be bumped down to the PO grade she would still be a Sergeant just a lower ranked one.
Also... do Marines exist at all? Or is "Marine" a job title like "Machine Operator" or "Comms Tech"?
the ranks being assigned Marine sounding names but there being no "Marine Corp" as such? Are we blinded by the need to make this fit the US system?
However the point is I've got Screen captures from Litmus that show her coller insig as being what this page has defined as PO (1st or 2nd) she's in the wrong place whatever the reasoning behind Marines.(my understanding of wiki isn't up to linking to the image but it's in the list called TyrolHadrianinsig.jpg) - Grible
:Here you go with the pic. It's not a matter of shoehorning the US Marine rank system. Marines have a seperate rank system, we have two examples PFC Kelso and Sergeant Hadrian. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:19, 30 January 2006 (EST) [[Image:TyrolHadrianInsig.jpg|thumb|right|Tyrol/Hadrian Rank Comparison]]
::Oh, and in Final Cut, during Kelso's interview, the text reads PFC Scott Kelso, CMCR which would be the Colonial Marine Corps Reserve. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:22, 30 January 2006 (EST)
::: [[Scott Kelso]] is displayed pretty clearly as being PFC (see his character pic). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:24, 30 January 2006 (EST)
:::: I conceed on the existance of Marines! - Grible
:::::Thanks SV, I just got to that scene and was about to take a screenshot. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:31, 30 January 2006 (EST)

::::::You're arguing about changing the rank equivalence of characters, and you didn't even know that the [[Colonial Marine Corps]] existed? Please read this link, it has more info than I can list here. Officially, the [[Colonial Fleet]] ranks are as stated above Admiral, Commander...Lieutenant, Chief Petty Officer, etc. etc. Also officially, RDM has stated that the Marines don't use this rank structure, but an entirely different one. '''Comparing collar rank insignia is meaningless'''. Because they use an entirely separate rank structure, they almost certainly have different rank insignia. We know that "Sergeant" is the highest Marine non-com rank, Commander Adama stated in that episode that Sergeant Hadrian, their Master-At-Arms, was the highest ranking Marine on the ship, and we've seen other Marines who were "Sergeant"'s so I think she's the highest rank of "Sergeant". The reason Tyrol acts like she outranks him is because she's the ''de facto'' MP (military police) leader aboard ''Galactica'', and has been given greater responsibilities as a result. But they have equivalent rank.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:38, 30 January 2006 (EST)

I was dipping a toe about the colonial marines, my point was really that, did they have to be a seperate service? I've been slapped down, leave it be :)

IMHO Tyrol acts like he out ranks her (which is borne out by the coller pins). Else he should call her Sir/Ma'am not repeatedly use her rank and be borderline insulting to her. As above just because she is the highest ranking marine on the ship doesn't make her the highest rank avalible.
She is the Master-at-Arms even if she is equal in rank to the other sergeants, which I'm not arguing for (there are plenty of sergeant grades to go around), she would still be in charge.
On a more fundamental point i would also suggest comparing collar rank insignia is the only meaningful way of establishing relative rank. There really wouldn't be much point in having it otherwise. For instance all of the branches of the US army forces use a unified collar ranking system to streamline relative ranks, isn't that the point? The coller pins used are the old army ones but everyone uses them. It makes no sense for a Navel LtCmdr to wear Oak leaves (not very naval) but it draws the link to Army/Air/Marine Majors, this is the point no? - [[User:Grible|Grible]] 17:37, 30 January 2006 (EST) (look at me learning wiki!)

Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)/Archive3

2006-01-30T19:29:53Z

Grible:

Isn't Cally referred to as a Specialist at some point? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:32, 29 August 2005 (EDT)

Definitely. There's a time when the Chief tells the "Specialist" to go do something. -QuintusCinna.

Well, that just fracks up the whole thing then. Not only do we have Cally in the wrong place and we're missing a rank, but it's an Army/Air Force rank for a Fleet member. :( (On the plus side, Specialists are E-4s though IIRC.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:38, 29 August 2005 (EDT)

Let's be open with the Chief's use of "specialist". It might have been relative to her MOS, though I doubt it. Such as tech specialist, deck specialist, things of that sort. In the military we often called them specialists too, though I do believe, just like you, that the chief was meaning it in the context of rank. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]

==Abbreviations==
Here is the list of abbreviations I wrote for the ranks here. The enlisted ranks for Marines are still a little rough though, the "all caps" ranks are in the US Army style, others use lower case, eg Master Sergeant: MSG, MSgt.

Officer 
O-11 Fleet Admiral No abbrev., FAdm could work 
O-10 Admiral Adm 
O-9 Vice Admiral VAdm 
O-8 Rear Admiral RAdm 
O-7 Commander Cdr 
O-6 Colonel Col 
O-5 Major Maj 
O-4 Captain Capt 
O-3 Lieutenant Lt 
O-2 Lieutenant Junior Grade LtJG 
O-1 Ensign Ens 

Enlisted 
E-9 Master Chief Petty Officer MCPO 
E-8 Senior Chief Petty Officer SCPO 
E-7 Chief Petty Officer CPO 
E-6 Petty Officer 1st Class PO1 
E-5 Petty Officer 2nd Class PO2 
E-4 Petty Officer 3rd Class PO3 
E-3 Crewman CN (based on US Navy Seaman SN) 
E-2 Crewman Apprentice CA ("") 
E-1 Crewman Recruit CR ("") 

Marine 
E-9 Sergeant Major SGM 
E-8 Senior Master Sergeant/Master Sergeant SMSgt/MSG 
E-7 Master Sergeant/Sergeant 1st Class MSG/SFC 
E-6 Staff Sergeant SSG 
E-5 Sergeant SGT 
E-4 Corporal CPL 
E-3 Private 1st Class PFC 
E-2 Private 2nd Class PV2 
E-1 Private Recruit PVR 
--[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:33, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

: I went ahead and formatted your post, Talos, so that it was easier to read. I don't think I broke anything, did I? Anyway, I think the all-caps ranks look loud. I know that's kind of an artifact of the internet, but still... I'd rather just cap the first letter of a word from an abbreviation. Thus "PFC" is fine because each of those are the first letter of a word. On the other hand, I'd rather "Sgt." than "SGT". Also, "Cpt." and "Cmdr." are more intuitive to me, but I don't know if I made those up or ''where'' they came from. --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:03, 15 September 2005 (EDT)
::Thanks for the formatting, that's how it was whem I typed it in notepad. I see how that works now. Like I said, the reason they are all caps is that it is based on the Army enlisted structure. I didn't go with the Marine Corps structure because it's missing the two ranks unique to the MC, Lance Corporal and Gunnery Sergeant. Here is a link about the US Military ranks: [http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/insignias/officers.html]. There is a link on top to the enlisted ranks. What is interesting is the way the US Navy O-6 rank's head is turned compared to the others. Also, Capt and Cdr are how the USN abbreviates Captain and Commander. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 07:00, 15 September 2005 (EDT)
:::I wanted to add something else, the CAPS are only used in forms, charts, etc. When written with the name it is normal case, so Hadrian,... Rank: SGT, but ...Sgt. Hadrian. I can't believe I forgot this. I must be slipping. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

== Adama ≠ Fleet Admrial ==

: ''Following was moved from [[User talk:Joe.Beaudoin]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] at 21:45, 17 October 2005 (EDT).''

Noticed something while browsing and thought I might mention it...

On the page for Military Ranks (RDM), the supposition is that the rank of Commander (i.e. Cdr. Adama) is equivalent to a US Navy Rear Admiral. In my extensive reading, I have found that there are a few reasons why Commander is not equal to a Rear Admiral or Commodore.

Battlestar Groups are roughly analogous to Carrier Battle Groups, the current major organizational format for the US Navy. CBGs are commanded as an entire body by a Rear Admiral Lower Half, while the carrier itself is commanded by a Captain (O-6). It is possible that, while the vessel was in lay-up at the Scorpion Ship Yards, the Pegasus was part of a functioning BSG. This would explain why Adm. Nelena Cain is in command of the Pegasus. Meanwhile, the Galactica was quite alone at the beginning of the mini-series, and on the verge of decommissioning and conversion. Adama's rank could be considered analogous to an O-6 since the Rear Admiral LH in charge of BSG-75 would have moved to another BSG while Commander (Captain) Adama took the Galactica into retirement. In a footnote in an earlier draft of the page, it was stated that since Adama had the authority to assume command of the fleet (Miniseries), he would have to carry flag rank. This was likely a plot device, and it was never necessary to justify it, since no other Colonial Fleet vessel survived (excepting Pegasus, which was most likely already gone). In the modern US Navy, it would be highly improbable for the Admiral in charge of a CBG to assume command of the entire Navy.

S. Price

:I expect this would be more useful on [[Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)]] than on Joe's talk page. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:24, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

==How Many Admirals==

Although Nagala and Cain are both referred to as simply "admiral", I don't think that's presents strong evidence for them all being of the same rank, distinguished only by seniority. In the real world, both a one-star and four-star Admiral are referred to as simply "Admiral", unless a precise distinction must be made - not the case in the heat of combat, when Nagala's identity and rank would have been quite well known anyway. Furthermore, RDM's comment that Cain was only one promotion up from Commander strongly indicates that there were additional ranks above her.

The methodology of this page to date has been to identify BSG universe ranks with their (rough) NATO-equivalents. This seems sensible to me, since no precise overview of the BSG rank system has been given yet, and it makes sense to evaluate new information with regard to an existing military structure with which the show's creators are familiar. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:39, 7 December 2005 (EST)

::I agree. I can't imagine a "promotion date" hierarchy working very well for establishing seniority between fleet commanders. I don't know how common inter-fleet operations would be, but there would be a lot more friction if equal ranked admirals were issuing orders to each other. While a twelve-admiral "quorum of twelve" would be a very democratic and fair sounding concept, military thinking tends to prefer hierarchy to committee, especially in cases where decision need to be made quickly. I wonder if Cain's insignia might provide any insight into the ranks (and whether there might be higher ones). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:28, 7 December 2005 (EST)

We never see Cain referred to as a "rear admiral" either. Looking at the insignia on the page, there's only one Admiral insignia anyway—there is absolutely no evidence anywhere that rear admirals and vice admirals even exist in Battlestar Galactica. Moore himself only mentions one grade of "admiral" in his blog entry. So essentially what's happening is that people are making things up and pretending it's in the canon just to make Colonial Fleet correspond perfectly with the US Navy.

In response to "I can't imagine a "promotion date" hierarchy working very well for establishing seniority between fleet commanders.", the fact is, the real military uses that hierarchy consciously. For instance, the seven US generals and admirals promoted to five star rank in 1944 were deliberately promoted on consecutive days—Leahy in the 15th, Marshall on the 16th, King on the 17th, MacArthur on the 18th, Nimitz on the 19th, Eisenhower on the 20th, and Arnold on the 21st of December—to allow for such a hierarchy.

More importantly, Colonial Fleet was probably a small and shrinking military force anyway, largely because they had nothing to do—the colonies were united and there was no foreign threat for over 40 years. Furthermore, there can't have possibly been that many ships in the fleet anyway, if Galactica and Pegasus were the only survivors. Four grades of admiral exist are necessary when you're the United States Navy and you have 300 ships. We have no evidence Colonial Fleet was that large. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:17, 7 December 2005 (EST)

:1.) I can't speak for the source on those insignia myself - did [[User:Winterfell]] every say where he found them?

:2.) We know there were at least 120 battlestars, next to the US Navy's 12 aircraft carriers, so I have difficulty with that argument.
::At which point? The Cylon war was 40 years ago. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:56, 7 December 2005 (EST)
:::At the time of the Cylon Attack. When Adama tells Starbuck that 30 battlestars have been destroyed, she replies in shock that "that's a quarter of the fleet!". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:15, 7 December 2005 (EST)
::::OK. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:36, 7 December 2005 (EST)

:3.) I don't think we're pretending anything is in Canon here, and if it looks that way to you, I don't mind making a clearer distinction. The fact is simply that we don't know much about the Colonial Navy, and that comparing the ranks observed on the show to the ranks of a well-documented force is an instructive exercise. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:28, 7 December 2005 (EST)

::Your clarifications look good to me, Philwelch. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:34, 7 December 2005 (EST)
I don't know if it means anything but in Pegasus, the DRADIS screen after they identify the Pegasus has two stars next to the Peggie's symbol. Maybe she's a two-star admiral. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 22:17, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:Here's what I mean. Note the stars (they are more blob-like here but are stars) next to the Pegasus on the right and how the identically targeted Galactica has none. Also, note that the Pegasus can ID the Gal's Vipers but the Galactica doesn't show the four Pegasus Viper's callsigns. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 15:54, 28 December 2005 (EST)
[[Image:GalPegDradis.JPG|thumb|DRADIS displays, Galactica and Pegasus ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]])]]
::Veering off topic, but Kat is apparently flying "Viper 24" in that scene. Have we seen two-digit numbers used for Vipers elsewhere? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 28 December 2005 (EST)
:::Not that I know of. I was wondering about this earlier, maybe the two digit number is shorthand eg. her Viper is 5624NC or something. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:34, 28 December 2005 (EST)

:: I'm assuming this is a moot point here now, but I'll chime in anyway. Of the 120 or so Battlestars that were commissioned at the time of the attacks on the colonies, I'd say we're missing some information to make an educated guess as to who commands what. Starbuck mentioned 'fleet', so I'm working under the assumption that the word 'Battlestar' is used to describe a military ship in general, rather than a specific type of ship (Sort of like the USS in US Navy ships) . That said, I'm guessing there are also more than two classes of Battlestar (Mercury class and whatever class Galactica belongs to can't be the only two),and they're somehow organized into a type of numbered fleet command structure. An Admiral would command the numbered fleet, Commanders would command the smaller support craft and so on down the line. Above the numbered fleets is someone like Admiral Nagala from the mini, who commands the ENTIRE fleet and directly supervises the numbered fleet admirals. In Galactica's case, she was being prepared for decommissioning anyway, so she didn't fall under a numbered fleet, instead reporting directly to Fleet Headquarters on Picon in the mini. I know it's a bit long winded, but hopefully that sort of explains why there aren't 120 or so admirals in the fleet running around giving orders...:) [[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 15:07, 18 January 2006 (EST)

::: I think you're misunderstanding things. A battlestar ''is'' a type of ship. It's like saying destroyer, or aircraft carrier, though, so there can be different classes of battlestar. The name comes from what role it's intended to play in combat (a combination, actually, but a carrier being one of those roles). I believe our understanding is that a Battlestar Group (BSG) was a battlestar and its accompanying support fleet, very similar to the US Navy's Carrier Groups. So an admiral would probably actually be in charge of a few BSGs (with a Commander like Adama being in charge of his BSG alone) and you might have an admiral above that controling a group of lower admirals (think CINCLANT or CINCPAC) and you might not... Then you've got Nagala at the top telling ''everyone'' what to do. Anyway... a battlestar is not just any combat ship, a BSG is not a group of battlestars (but a group of ships with a battlestar in lead), and, no, all my ranting doesn't get us any closer or farther from the question of how many Admirals the COlonial Fleet had before the Attack. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:44, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:::: I think you and I just both said the same thing! And I wholeheartedly agree, we're no closer to a solution...[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 15:51, 18 January 2006 (EST)

==Insignia==
I'd advocate getting rid of the conjectural insignia. It would be nice if we could find actual screen captures to use instead of Winterfell's (admittedly nice looking) drawings, for credibility's sake. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:22, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:The conjectural ones, yes. The ones that seem to correspond with screen captures we do have, I think it's safe to keep. Is there anyone here with HD captures of the episodes? If so that would help greatly. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 18:53, 11 December 2005 (EST)

::You know what I think? We should have both. I really appriciate the clarity of the illustrations. Let us have both, side-by-side, so that readers may verify the accuracy, but also clearly see what the insigniae are. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:12, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:::Speaking of this, Major on down in the officers insignia are very hard to see. Can we get versions with more contrast or better colors or something?--[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 22:25, 11 December 2005 (EST)

==Tyrol & Hadrian==
Small point - Chief Tyrol and Sergeant Hadrian are assigned equivalent ranks in the table. During his arrest/detention and again during interview in Litmus the Chief puts great stress on calling Hadrian by her rank over and over, this always inplied to me that he considered himself above her in rank. Also if you watch it through on slow-mo zoomed in... (ok now i'm getting sad)... She has a "green diamond with a single stripe" and he has a "green diamond with single stripe and an arrowhead on each side" ie the ranks currently in the table as CPO for Tyrol and PO (of some grade) for Hadrian. - I didn't want to edit the main page as this is my first ever wiki experience. - Grible

:Thanks for your note, and your caution. Does anyone have screen captures of Tyrol & Hadrian's rank insignia? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:26, 29 January 2006 (EST)

::I disagree: listen and you'll see that he's saying like "It was ''the Sergeant'' that was responsible for that", etc. And because he was on trial, it's not like he'd be presumptuous enough to call her by name, but at the same time, he wanted to be condescending and shift the blame to her. As they've already stated on screen, Tyrol is the highest Non-Com Colonial Fleet officer, and Sergeant Hadrian is the highest-ranking Colonial Marine Non-Com; they've both got the highest Non-Com rank. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:32, 29 January 2006 (EST)

I've got screen captures to support my point now, I must needs be go to work however, how do i get the captures to you?
Also, Just because Hadrian is the ranking Marine aboard Galactica doesn't mean she has to hold the highest rank, Galactica is short of Marines from the start. I would suggest that a ship on it's way to decommission only has the bare minimum of marines under an appropriatly ranked person (Hadrian) to do marine stuff (guard things etc) onboard. No one expects them to need Marines for boarding/landing parties or to defend the ship. Furthermore, Hadrian is the Master-at-Arms, she's the ships policeman. If Galactica had a full unit of marines chances are there would be commissioned marine officers and a complete command structure. I suggest she is a relativly low ranked NCO with a handful of marines to act as a security force aboard a ship about to leave the service, then look what happened... - Grible

--No. "Sergeant" is the highest NCO rank, anything higher would be a commissioned officer. That's the same position Tyrol is in.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 10:54, 30 January 2006 (EST)

--yes and no, "Sergeant" used in conversation could mean any level of Sergeant. She could be anything from E4-E9 and still be legitimatly called Sergeant. Since I'm only (and how anal do i feel) suggesting she be bumped down to the PO grade she would still be a Sergeant just a lower ranked one.
Also... do Marines exist at all? Or is "Marine" a job title like "Machine Operator" or "Comms Tech"?
the ranks being assigned Marine sounding names but there being no "Marine Corp" as such? Are we blinded by the need to make this fit the US system?
However the point is I've got Screen captures from Litmus that show her coller insig as being what this page has defined as PO (1st or 2nd) she's in the wrong place whatever the reasoning behind Marines.(my understanding of wiki isn't up to linking to the image but it's in the list called TyrolHadrianinsig.jpg) - Grible
:Here you go with the pic. It's not a matter of shoehorning the US Marine rank system. Marines have a seperate rank system, we have two examples Private (maybe PFC, I have to check) Kelso and Sergeant Hadrian. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:19, 30 January 2006 (EST) [[Image:TyrolHadrianInsig.jpg|thumb|right|Tyrol/Hadrian Rank Comparison]]
::Oh, and in Final Cut, during Kelso's interview, the text reads (Rank) Scott Kelso, CMCR which would be the Colonial Marine Corps Reserve. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:22, 30 January 2006 (EST)
::: [[Scott Kelso]] is displayed pretty clearly as being PFC (see his character pic). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:24, 30 January 2006 (EST)
:::: I conceed on the existance of Marines! - Grible

Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)/Archive3

2006-01-30T19:14:58Z

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Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)/Archive3

2006-01-30T07:59:47Z

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Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)/Archive3

2006-01-30T07:34:58Z

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Talk:Military Ranks (RDM)/Archive3

2006-01-30T00:23:33Z

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