Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Guess What's Coming to Dinner?/Archive 1

2008-05-22T14:54:58Z

Gallion: /* Roslin's Book */

==Into the West==
I was just reading over the communique Brad just sent us, where he tells us that "Into the West" is not actually an episode of the fourth season, and I might know what happened. Apparently the source for the name of the episode comes from [http://thetvaddict.com/2007/06/27/more-battlestar-galactica-scoop/ this] report from an on-set reporter who glanced over a random script laying around, with the title "Into the West" on it back in June. With a little bit of research I discovered that frequent Battlestar director [[Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]] recently worked on project for Stephen Spielberg called "[http://alt.tnt.tv/itw/ Into the West]", and the writer for TV Addict might have glanced over one of Sergio's scripts. --[[User:OrionFour|OrionFour]] 03:57, 30 November 2007 (CST)

== The "Deleted Discussions" tag ==

I removed the deleted discussions tag, since it was clear that this discussion page was originally the one for "Into the West", itself having been deleted. I did this to avoid any confusion. Thanks for the heads-up, [[User:Sasoriza|Sasoriza]]! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 16:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

== Two-parter? ==

According to imdb.com, this episode is the first half of a two-parter, which means "Guess What's Coming to Dinner part 2" will air next week, and Sine Qua Non airs only after that. Is that true? Do you have any information on this? -- [[User:Freevo|Freevo]] 18:38, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
: Well, it's a two-parter in the sense that there'll be a conclusion. However, the second part ''is'' "Sine Qua Non". Also, don't trust IMDb with new information... they for every one thing they get right, there are two to five things that are completely wrong, particularly for content that hasn't aired yet. (For instance, all the episodes for season 4.0 were credited as being written by RDM, when that isn't the case.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:55, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
:Two-parters don't have to have the same title. See "Scattered"/"Valley of Darkness", "Occupation"/"Precipice", "Torn"/"A Measure of Salvation" or "The Eye of Jupiter"/"Rapture". There are more episodes that are clearly connected, like the whole first few episodes of Season 2. And that's just on this show. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
::Serenity, since I watch the same show, I am absolutely aware of that. Imdb just listed "part 2" and "Sine Qua Non" as two different episodes. And, well, this "part 1-part 2" naming also had some credibility because of "Crossroads". But yes, I totally understand that imdb is a lousy source for any information. :) Thanks for clarifying this. -- [[User:Freevo|Freevo]] 19:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Sorry, didn't check the site. In that case, it's just them being lazy again. The episode titles and order have been known for some time and confirmed by official sources. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
::::That source would be [[BW:OC#Season 4 Episode Titles|this one]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 21:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::At Caprica City we had been listing GWCTD as a two-parter for many weeks. If I'm not mistaken, our "source" was a KR post on Skiffy. It wasn't until several days ago that we realized all this confusion probably arose from the fact that May 23rd is Memorial Day. --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 23:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::::::At last... Pedda is alive! :P yeah. I think it's pretty much confirmed by now that's it is a two-parter. There is so much stuff to be resolved, I doubt they can fit it in an hour show. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 00:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::::According to the Faith podcast, Guess What's Coming to Dinner is the conclusion of a two-parter which started with Faith. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 06:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

== Missing cast ==

I filled the gaps in the guest cast best I could, but there are two last names I'm not positive about because it took some detective work just to make out the most of the names in the closing credits. I believe the penultimate is Craig Veroni - a Vancouver actor. The last appears to be Lee Jeffery (or Jeffrey) who has ties to the show... at least according to IMDb. So both seem likely to be correct educated guesses. Can anyone confirm? And, of course, add character names because I cannot make that leap. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 07:28, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

== Baltar and Gaeta ==

I disagree with this analysis in the article:

"Gaius Baltar is also drawn to see Gaeta, but the two do not interact; he is out of Gaeta's view and listening to him singing, suggesting that Baltar may have forgiven Gaeta for perjuring himself at Baltar's trial and for the earlier murder attempt."

I think that it's unreasonable to infer that from such a short scene with no dialogue between the characters. Should it be removed? [[User:FredTheDeadHead|FredTheDeadHead]] 09:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

: More than likely, the two don't interact. Otherwise, Gaeta would have been clearly agitated, given that Gaeta:

# perjured himself on the stand in an attempt to secure a guilty plea for Baltar that Roslin and Tigh had failed to do so;
# stabbed Baltar in the neck.

: Of course, once the podcast is released, we may learn more. :) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:58, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

::I take it that you agree it should be removed? [[User:FredTheDeadHead|FredTheDeadHead]] 18:33, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
==Possible Trial of Athena==

Roslin's, Athena's, and Caprica Six's shared visions were a prominent feature in [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]]. We saw all three having them simultaneously culminating in Athena shooting Natalie. We saw Roslin discussing them with Lee, Starbuck, Baltar and Foster. It is a subject of Baltar's radio show. I think it is going to be a major issue of a President, now abducted by the Cylons from the Colonial's point of view, having visions with the Cylons. Now [[Romo Lampkin]] is due to appear in the very next episode. Now he could be there for the unmentioned alleged mutiny and the shooting of Gaeta by Anders or even any succession battle between Lee and Zarek, but I doubt it given the clear line of succession established for the Presidency and the total lack of reaction by the Command Staff of the Galactica to Gaeta being shot or the so-called mutiny. I think from all the described build up of "Visiongate" with the shooting of Natalie at its head will be a major plot point. I of course could be TOTALLY off base, but that is my analysis and I think I have cited evidence for it. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 00:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
: To be honest, I removed it because I firmly believe that it is totally off-the-wall that Athena would be charged with anything in a ''civilian'' court of law. She would be brought up on military charges, which fall under Adama's purview. Romo Lampkin's deals with the civilian end of things, hence the whole hoopla about laws in Season 3. (There was none of this hoopla during the tribunal way back in the first season, since that was military.) Beyond that, this is a case of people using disparate evidence to come to a weak analysis based on a two second clip of Romo Lampkin's wearing his shades... Quite frankly, I would remove the "trial" analysis point and merely ask "Will Athena be brought up on charges?" in the questions section... but as it stands right now, it should be removed, no matter how much lipstick is put on this pig. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 01:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::In real life under the United States Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) a defendant can have outside civilian representation at a Court Martial if he pleases. Anyway you could be right and I am basing it on nothing and it could be related to something totally unrelated but I reiterate with all the build up with visions, Visiongate, and the lack of any mention of any legal proceedings regarding the alleged mutiny and/or Gaeta's shooting I think I am on pretty good grounds. Maybe Gaeta has come forward after all and Anders needs representation is the bases of Lampkin coming back with the next episode tilted [[Sine Qua Non]]. On the basis of the title alone '''some''' kind of major legal plot line is in the offing. Maybe Thrace was arrested on suspicion of aiding the Cylons in the President's abduction? That is a guess with even less to go on than my Athena angle. I do concede that another legal possibility is Tigh's apparent assault on Admiral Adama. It could be one thing to shoot a Cylon and be lightly punished for it, another to beat up the Admiral of the Fleet, so that is one real way Lampkin's services cold be needed. I don't think you can sweep that under the rug. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 06:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
: By the way, I really should have put this up for discussion before I deleted it. Sorry 'bout that. If people feel I've pulled a Cavil, let me know. :) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 02:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::I consider it a valid point. However, I think it's just too much analysis from too little to base it on. It's not that it's completely unlikely - it might happen - but mostly baseless from what we know at the moment. The stuff about the witnesses she uses in her defense could be removed for example. Saying that there is evidence that she truly experienced visions would be enough here IMO. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:::The question isn't whether there is evidence that she was truly experiencing visions-we the audience know that she is-but whether the in show characters have evidence to present in any in show trial. Lee, Thrace and Caprica Six can give evidence backing Athena's possible defense and what is their credibility given the backgrounds of the witness. And while the killing of a Cylon has been handled by the Colonials in a casual manner in the past, there is much more at stake now. The possible killing of Natalie has a greater significance to Fleet security than the killing of Boomer. Also, since this is an analysis of an episode, the episode and what we know up to and including that episode is what we got to work with, nothing beyond. In other words, we are not going to go back and modify the analysis of [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]] after [[Sine Qua Non]] airs because that is going beyond what we knew up to that episode. Similarly I am not going to include a possible scenario for Lampkin to come back that includes Tigh assaulting Admiral Adama because he doesn't do it in Guess What's Coming to Dinner but in the next episode. The possibility of a legal fall out and what that could be has enough basis in GWCtD. Often all we got is sketchy information in one episode because the answer often lies a future episode. If we had the answers or even good evidence clearly pointing to a plot solution there wouldn't be much need for analysis. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 17:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::::I know that's it's evidence from the characters' POV. That's what I meant. Still, that's all that's really needed here. Whether there are people who can act as witnesses in her defense is pretty irrelevant really unless there actually is a trial. For me, it's more interesting to point out that there may be reasons for a trial - or just an investigation - from both the Colonials' and Cylons' point of view and that Agathon has some arguments she can use in her defense. Analyzing the details of her hypothetical defense in a, yet, hypothetical trial is a bit over the top here. And with details I mean listing witnesses according to their credibility and availability. I wouldn't really remove much. Just the last two sentences, and only mention that those three people could support her story. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

== Question mark ==

As in there is a question mark punctuating the title on the SciFi website. Shouldn't the title here follow suit? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 11:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:No. Bradley Thompson gave us this title without the question mark, and the movie ("Guess Who's Coming to Dinner") also doesn't have the question mark. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 15:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::The title on the production script has a question mark at the end. I vote adding it. -- [[User:Mmm...toasty|Mmm...toasty]] 21:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Hmm... If that's the case then, yes, add it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 21:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::::Moved the page. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 21:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::Whew, done with the renaming. One of these days I'm gonna throw together a search&replace bot for this. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 21:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::::::I have one with the interwiki bot. :P [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 23:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Yeah but that uses the pywikipediabot, not the technically superior API ;) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 13:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
::::::::As long as you make it so you can interface bots on the Specialpage area, that would make it superior. Never have to go into Shell to run commands. :) [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 13:57, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::I could add a special page interface to my bots, good idea. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 16:23, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::: <nowiki>:)</nowiki>[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 18:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::It is odd, though. "Guess what's coming to dinner," isn't a question. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 00:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

== Roslin's Book ==

when I watched the episode I tried to burn into my skull the title of the book that Roslin brought with her in the Raptor to go see the Hybrid with Baltar. (camera pans down to her lap and you can clearly read the title). Not that it really matters, but in the pursuit of knowledge gathering it might be nice to note somewhere. Anyone remember the title...Seahawk something or something hawk? I'm at work at the moment and can't find a clip of the final few mins of the episode anywhere.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 14:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

: Nevermind, ''[[Searider Falcon]]'' its the same book that Adama started reading to her, guess she brought it as a confidence booster on her trip to the Basestar.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 14:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Guess What's Coming to Dinner?/Archive 1

2008-05-22T14:53:23Z

Gallion: /* Roslin's Book */

==Into the West==
I was just reading over the communique Brad just sent us, where he tells us that "Into the West" is not actually an episode of the fourth season, and I might know what happened. Apparently the source for the name of the episode comes from [http://thetvaddict.com/2007/06/27/more-battlestar-galactica-scoop/ this] report from an on-set reporter who glanced over a random script laying around, with the title "Into the West" on it back in June. With a little bit of research I discovered that frequent Battlestar director [[Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]] recently worked on project for Stephen Spielberg called "[http://alt.tnt.tv/itw/ Into the West]", and the writer for TV Addict might have glanced over one of Sergio's scripts. --[[User:OrionFour|OrionFour]] 03:57, 30 November 2007 (CST)

== The "Deleted Discussions" tag ==

I removed the deleted discussions tag, since it was clear that this discussion page was originally the one for "Into the West", itself having been deleted. I did this to avoid any confusion. Thanks for the heads-up, [[User:Sasoriza|Sasoriza]]! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 16:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

== Two-parter? ==

According to imdb.com, this episode is the first half of a two-parter, which means "Guess What's Coming to Dinner part 2" will air next week, and Sine Qua Non airs only after that. Is that true? Do you have any information on this? -- [[User:Freevo|Freevo]] 18:38, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
: Well, it's a two-parter in the sense that there'll be a conclusion. However, the second part ''is'' "Sine Qua Non". Also, don't trust IMDb with new information... they for every one thing they get right, there are two to five things that are completely wrong, particularly for content that hasn't aired yet. (For instance, all the episodes for season 4.0 were credited as being written by RDM, when that isn't the case.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:55, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
:Two-parters don't have to have the same title. See "Scattered"/"Valley of Darkness", "Occupation"/"Precipice", "Torn"/"A Measure of Salvation" or "The Eye of Jupiter"/"Rapture". There are more episodes that are clearly connected, like the whole first few episodes of Season 2. And that's just on this show. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
::Serenity, since I watch the same show, I am absolutely aware of that. Imdb just listed "part 2" and "Sine Qua Non" as two different episodes. And, well, this "part 1-part 2" naming also had some credibility because of "Crossroads". But yes, I totally understand that imdb is a lousy source for any information. :) Thanks for clarifying this. -- [[User:Freevo|Freevo]] 19:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Sorry, didn't check the site. In that case, it's just them being lazy again. The episode titles and order have been known for some time and confirmed by official sources. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
::::That source would be [[BW:OC#Season 4 Episode Titles|this one]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 21:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::At Caprica City we had been listing GWCTD as a two-parter for many weeks. If I'm not mistaken, our "source" was a KR post on Skiffy. It wasn't until several days ago that we realized all this confusion probably arose from the fact that May 23rd is Memorial Day. --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 23:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::::::At last... Pedda is alive! :P yeah. I think it's pretty much confirmed by now that's it is a two-parter. There is so much stuff to be resolved, I doubt they can fit it in an hour show. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 00:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::::According to the Faith podcast, Guess What's Coming to Dinner is the conclusion of a two-parter which started with Faith. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 06:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

== Missing cast ==

I filled the gaps in the guest cast best I could, but there are two last names I'm not positive about because it took some detective work just to make out the most of the names in the closing credits. I believe the penultimate is Craig Veroni - a Vancouver actor. The last appears to be Lee Jeffery (or Jeffrey) who has ties to the show... at least according to IMDb. So both seem likely to be correct educated guesses. Can anyone confirm? And, of course, add character names because I cannot make that leap. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 07:28, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

== Baltar and Gaeta ==

I disagree with this analysis in the article:

"Gaius Baltar is also drawn to see Gaeta, but the two do not interact; he is out of Gaeta's view and listening to him singing, suggesting that Baltar may have forgiven Gaeta for perjuring himself at Baltar's trial and for the earlier murder attempt."

I think that it's unreasonable to infer that from such a short scene with no dialogue between the characters. Should it be removed? [[User:FredTheDeadHead|FredTheDeadHead]] 09:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

: More than likely, the two don't interact. Otherwise, Gaeta would have been clearly agitated, given that Gaeta:

# perjured himself on the stand in an attempt to secure a guilty plea for Baltar that Roslin and Tigh had failed to do so;
# stabbed Baltar in the neck.

: Of course, once the podcast is released, we may learn more. :) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:58, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

::I take it that you agree it should be removed? [[User:FredTheDeadHead|FredTheDeadHead]] 18:33, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
==Possible Trial of Athena==

Roslin's, Athena's, and Caprica Six's shared visions were a prominent feature in [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]]. We saw all three having them simultaneously culminating in Athena shooting Natalie. We saw Roslin discussing them with Lee, Starbuck, Baltar and Foster. It is a subject of Baltar's radio show. I think it is going to be a major issue of a President, now abducted by the Cylons from the Colonial's point of view, having visions with the Cylons. Now [[Romo Lampkin]] is due to appear in the very next episode. Now he could be there for the unmentioned alleged mutiny and the shooting of Gaeta by Anders or even any succession battle between Lee and Zarek, but I doubt it given the clear line of succession established for the Presidency and the total lack of reaction by the Command Staff of the Galactica to Gaeta being shot or the so-called mutiny. I think from all the described build up of "Visiongate" with the shooting of Natalie at its head will be a major plot point. I of course could be TOTALLY off base, but that is my analysis and I think I have cited evidence for it. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 00:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
: To be honest, I removed it because I firmly believe that it is totally off-the-wall that Athena would be charged with anything in a ''civilian'' court of law. She would be brought up on military charges, which fall under Adama's purview. Romo Lampkin's deals with the civilian end of things, hence the whole hoopla about laws in Season 3. (There was none of this hoopla during the tribunal way back in the first season, since that was military.) Beyond that, this is a case of people using disparate evidence to come to a weak analysis based on a two second clip of Romo Lampkin's wearing his shades... Quite frankly, I would remove the "trial" analysis point and merely ask "Will Athena be brought up on charges?" in the questions section... but as it stands right now, it should be removed, no matter how much lipstick is put on this pig. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 01:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::In real life under the United States Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) a defendant can have outside civilian representation at a Court Martial if he pleases. Anyway you could be right and I am basing it on nothing and it could be related to something totally unrelated but I reiterate with all the build up with visions, Visiongate, and the lack of any mention of any legal proceedings regarding the alleged mutiny and/or Gaeta's shooting I think I am on pretty good grounds. Maybe Gaeta has come forward after all and Anders needs representation is the bases of Lampkin coming back with the next episode tilted [[Sine Qua Non]]. On the basis of the title alone '''some''' kind of major legal plot line is in the offing. Maybe Thrace was arrested on suspicion of aiding the Cylons in the President's abduction? That is a guess with even less to go on than my Athena angle. I do concede that another legal possibility is Tigh's apparent assault on Admiral Adama. It could be one thing to shoot a Cylon and be lightly punished for it, another to beat up the Admiral of the Fleet, so that is one real way Lampkin's services cold be needed. I don't think you can sweep that under the rug. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 06:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
: By the way, I really should have put this up for discussion before I deleted it. Sorry 'bout that. If people feel I've pulled a Cavil, let me know. :) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 02:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::I consider it a valid point. However, I think it's just too much analysis from too little to base it on. It's not that it's completely unlikely - it might happen - but mostly baseless from what we know at the moment. The stuff about the witnesses she uses in her defense could be removed for example. Saying that there is evidence that she truly experienced visions would be enough here IMO. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:::The question isn't whether there is evidence that she was truly experiencing visions-we the audience know that she is-but whether the in show characters have evidence to present in any in show trial. Lee, Thrace and Caprica Six can give evidence backing Athena's possible defense and what is their credibility given the backgrounds of the witness. And while the killing of a Cylon has been handled by the Colonials in a casual manner in the past, there is much more at stake now. The possible killing of Natalie has a greater significance to Fleet security than the killing of Boomer. Also, since this is an analysis of an episode, the episode and what we know up to and including that episode is what we got to work with, nothing beyond. In other words, we are not going to go back and modify the analysis of [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]] after [[Sine Qua Non]] airs because that is going beyond what we knew up to that episode. Similarly I am not going to include a possible scenario for Lampkin to come back that includes Tigh assaulting Admiral Adama because he doesn't do it in Guess What's Coming to Dinner but in the next episode. The possibility of a legal fall out and what that could be has enough basis in GWCtD. Often all we got is sketchy information in one episode because the answer often lies a future episode. If we had the answers or even good evidence clearly pointing to a plot solution there wouldn't be much need for analysis. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 17:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::::I know that's it's evidence from the characters' POV. That's what I meant. Still, that's all that's really needed here. Whether there are people who can act as witnesses in her defense is pretty irrelevant really unless there actually is a trial. For me, it's more interesting to point out that there may be reasons for a trial - or just an investigation - from both the Colonials' and Cylons' point of view and that Agathon has some arguments she can use in her defense. Analyzing the details of her hypothetical defense in a, yet, hypothetical trial is a bit over the top here. And with details I mean listing witnesses according to their credibility and availability. I wouldn't really remove much. Just the last two sentences, and only mention that those three people could support her story. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

== Question mark ==

As in there is a question mark punctuating the title on the SciFi website. Shouldn't the title here follow suit? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 11:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:No. Bradley Thompson gave us this title without the question mark, and the movie ("Guess Who's Coming to Dinner") also doesn't have the question mark. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 15:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::The title on the production script has a question mark at the end. I vote adding it. -- [[User:Mmm...toasty|Mmm...toasty]] 21:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Hmm... If that's the case then, yes, add it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 21:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::::Moved the page. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 21:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::Whew, done with the renaming. One of these days I'm gonna throw together a search&replace bot for this. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 21:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::::::I have one with the interwiki bot. :P [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 23:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Yeah but that uses the pywikipediabot, not the technically superior API ;) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 13:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
::::::::As long as you make it so you can interface bots on the Specialpage area, that would make it superior. Never have to go into Shell to run commands. :) [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 13:57, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::I could add a special page interface to my bots, good idea. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 16:23, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::: <nowiki>:)</nowiki>[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 18:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::It is odd, though. "Guess what's coming to dinner," isn't a question. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 00:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

== Roslin's Book ==

when I watched the episode I tried to burn into my skull the title of the book that Roslin brought with her in the Raptor to go see the Hybrid with Baltar. (camera pans down to her lap and you can clearly read the title). Not that it really matters, but in the pursuit of knowledge gathering it might be nice to note somewhere. Anyone remember the title...Seahawk something or something hawk? I'm at work at the moment and can't find a clip of the final few mins of the episode anywhere.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 14:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

: Nevermind, [[''Searider Falcon'']], its the same book that Adama started reading to her, guess she brought it as a confidence booster on her trip to the Basestar.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 14:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Guess What's Coming to Dinner?/Archive 1

2008-05-22T14:44:21Z

Gallion: /* Roslin's Book */

Talk:Guess What's Coming to Dinner?/Archive 1

2008-05-22T14:43:15Z

Gallion:

==Into the West==
I was just reading over the communique Brad just sent us, where he tells us that "Into the West" is not actually an episode of the fourth season, and I might know what happened. Apparently the source for the name of the episode comes from [http://thetvaddict.com/2007/06/27/more-battlestar-galactica-scoop/ this] report from an on-set reporter who glanced over a random script laying around, with the title "Into the West" on it back in June. With a little bit of research I discovered that frequent Battlestar director [[Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]] recently worked on project for Stephen Spielberg called "[http://alt.tnt.tv/itw/ Into the West]", and the writer for TV Addict might have glanced over one of Sergio's scripts. --[[User:OrionFour|OrionFour]] 03:57, 30 November 2007 (CST)

== The "Deleted Discussions" tag ==

I removed the deleted discussions tag, since it was clear that this discussion page was originally the one for "Into the West", itself having been deleted. I did this to avoid any confusion. Thanks for the heads-up, [[User:Sasoriza|Sasoriza]]! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 16:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

== Two-parter? ==

According to imdb.com, this episode is the first half of a two-parter, which means "Guess What's Coming to Dinner part 2" will air next week, and Sine Qua Non airs only after that. Is that true? Do you have any information on this? -- [[User:Freevo|Freevo]] 18:38, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
: Well, it's a two-parter in the sense that there'll be a conclusion. However, the second part ''is'' "Sine Qua Non". Also, don't trust IMDb with new information... they for every one thing they get right, there are two to five things that are completely wrong, particularly for content that hasn't aired yet. (For instance, all the episodes for season 4.0 were credited as being written by RDM, when that isn't the case.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 18:55, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
:Two-parters don't have to have the same title. See "Scattered"/"Valley of Darkness", "Occupation"/"Precipice", "Torn"/"A Measure of Salvation" or "The Eye of Jupiter"/"Rapture". There are more episodes that are clearly connected, like the whole first few episodes of Season 2. And that's just on this show. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
::Serenity, since I watch the same show, I am absolutely aware of that. Imdb just listed "part 2" and "Sine Qua Non" as two different episodes. And, well, this "part 1-part 2" naming also had some credibility because of "Crossroads". But yes, I totally understand that imdb is a lousy source for any information. :) Thanks for clarifying this. -- [[User:Freevo|Freevo]] 19:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Sorry, didn't check the site. In that case, it's just them being lazy again. The episode titles and order have been known for some time and confirmed by official sources. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
::::That source would be [[BW:OC#Season 4 Episode Titles|this one]]. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 21:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::At Caprica City we had been listing GWCTD as a two-parter for many weeks. If I'm not mistaken, our "source" was a KR post on Skiffy. It wasn't until several days ago that we realized all this confusion probably arose from the fact that May 23rd is Memorial Day. --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 23:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
::::::At last... Pedda is alive! :P yeah. I think it's pretty much confirmed by now that's it is a two-parter. There is so much stuff to be resolved, I doubt they can fit it in an hour show. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 00:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::::According to the Faith podcast, Guess What's Coming to Dinner is the conclusion of a two-parter which started with Faith. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 06:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

== Missing cast ==

I filled the gaps in the guest cast best I could, but there are two last names I'm not positive about because it took some detective work just to make out the most of the names in the closing credits. I believe the penultimate is Craig Veroni - a Vancouver actor. The last appears to be Lee Jeffery (or Jeffrey) who has ties to the show... at least according to IMDb. So both seem likely to be correct educated guesses. Can anyone confirm? And, of course, add character names because I cannot make that leap. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 07:28, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

== Baltar and Gaeta ==

I disagree with this analysis in the article:

"Gaius Baltar is also drawn to see Gaeta, but the two do not interact; he is out of Gaeta's view and listening to him singing, suggesting that Baltar may have forgiven Gaeta for perjuring himself at Baltar's trial and for the earlier murder attempt."

I think that it's unreasonable to infer that from such a short scene with no dialogue between the characters. Should it be removed? [[User:FredTheDeadHead|FredTheDeadHead]] 09:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

: More than likely, the two don't interact. Otherwise, Gaeta would have been clearly agitated, given that Gaeta:

# perjured himself on the stand in an attempt to secure a guilty plea for Baltar that Roslin and Tigh had failed to do so;
# stabbed Baltar in the neck.

: Of course, once the podcast is released, we may learn more. :) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:58, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

::I take it that you agree it should be removed? [[User:FredTheDeadHead|FredTheDeadHead]] 18:33, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
==Possible Trial of Athena==

Roslin's, Athena's, and Caprica Six's shared visions were a prominent feature in [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]]. We saw all three having them simultaneously culminating in Athena shooting Natalie. We saw Roslin discussing them with Lee, Starbuck, Baltar and Foster. It is a subject of Baltar's radio show. I think it is going to be a major issue of a President, now abducted by the Cylons from the Colonial's point of view, having visions with the Cylons. Now [[Romo Lampkin]] is due to appear in the very next episode. Now he could be there for the unmentioned alleged mutiny and the shooting of Gaeta by Anders or even any succession battle between Lee and Zarek, but I doubt it given the clear line of succession established for the Presidency and the total lack of reaction by the Command Staff of the Galactica to Gaeta being shot or the so-called mutiny. I think from all the described build up of "Visiongate" with the shooting of Natalie at its head will be a major plot point. I of course could be TOTALLY off base, but that is my analysis and I think I have cited evidence for it. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 00:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
: To be honest, I removed it because I firmly believe that it is totally off-the-wall that Athena would be charged with anything in a ''civilian'' court of law. She would be brought up on military charges, which fall under Adama's purview. Romo Lampkin's deals with the civilian end of things, hence the whole hoopla about laws in Season 3. (There was none of this hoopla during the tribunal way back in the first season, since that was military.) Beyond that, this is a case of people using disparate evidence to come to a weak analysis based on a two second clip of Romo Lampkin's wearing his shades... Quite frankly, I would remove the "trial" analysis point and merely ask "Will Athena be brought up on charges?" in the questions section... but as it stands right now, it should be removed, no matter how much lipstick is put on this pig. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 01:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::In real life under the United States Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) a defendant can have outside civilian representation at a Court Martial if he pleases. Anyway you could be right and I am basing it on nothing and it could be related to something totally unrelated but I reiterate with all the build up with visions, Visiongate, and the lack of any mention of any legal proceedings regarding the alleged mutiny and/or Gaeta's shooting I think I am on pretty good grounds. Maybe Gaeta has come forward after all and Anders needs representation is the bases of Lampkin coming back with the next episode tilted [[Sine Qua Non]]. On the basis of the title alone '''some''' kind of major legal plot line is in the offing. Maybe Thrace was arrested on suspicion of aiding the Cylons in the President's abduction? That is a guess with even less to go on than my Athena angle. I do concede that another legal possibility is Tigh's apparent assault on Admiral Adama. It could be one thing to shoot a Cylon and be lightly punished for it, another to beat up the Admiral of the Fleet, so that is one real way Lampkin's services cold be needed. I don't think you can sweep that under the rug. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 06:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
: By the way, I really should have put this up for discussion before I deleted it. Sorry 'bout that. If people feel I've pulled a Cavil, let me know. :) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 02:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::I consider it a valid point. However, I think it's just too much analysis from too little to base it on. It's not that it's completely unlikely - it might happen - but mostly baseless from what we know at the moment. The stuff about the witnesses she uses in her defense could be removed for example. Saying that there is evidence that she truly experienced visions would be enough here IMO. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:::The question isn't whether there is evidence that she was truly experiencing visions-we the audience know that she is-but whether the in show characters have evidence to present in any in show trial. Lee, Thrace and Caprica Six can give evidence backing Athena's possible defense and what is their credibility given the backgrounds of the witness. And while the killing of a Cylon has been handled by the Colonials in a casual manner in the past, there is much more at stake now. The possible killing of Natalie has a greater significance to Fleet security than the killing of Boomer. Also, since this is an analysis of an episode, the episode and what we know up to and including that episode is what we got to work with, nothing beyond. In other words, we are not going to go back and modify the analysis of [[Guess What's Coming to Dinner?]] after [[Sine Qua Non]] airs because that is going beyond what we knew up to that episode. Similarly I am not going to include a possible scenario for Lampkin to come back that includes Tigh assaulting Admiral Adama because he doesn't do it in Guess What's Coming to Dinner but in the next episode. The possibility of a legal fall out and what that could be has enough basis in GWCtD. Often all we got is sketchy information in one episode because the answer often lies a future episode. If we had the answers or even good evidence clearly pointing to a plot solution there wouldn't be much need for analysis. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 17:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::::I know that's it's evidence from the characters' POV. That's what I meant. Still, that's all that's really needed here. Whether there are people who can act as witnesses in her defense is pretty irrelevant really unless there actually is a trial. For me, it's more interesting to point out that there may be reasons for a trial - or just an investigation - from both the Colonials' and Cylons' point of view and that Agathon has some arguments she can use in her defense. Analyzing the details of her hypothetical defense in a, yet, hypothetical trial is a bit over the top here. And with details I mean listing witnesses according to their credibility and availability. I wouldn't really remove much. Just the last two sentences, and only mention that those three people could support her story. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

== Question mark ==

As in there is a question mark punctuating the title on the SciFi website. Shouldn't the title here follow suit? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 11:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:No. Bradley Thompson gave us this title without the question mark, and the movie ("Guess Who's Coming to Dinner") also doesn't have the question mark. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 15:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::The title on the production script has a question mark at the end. I vote adding it. -- [[User:Mmm...toasty|Mmm...toasty]] 21:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Hmm... If that's the case then, yes, add it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 21:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::::Moved the page. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 21:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::Whew, done with the renaming. One of these days I'm gonna throw together a search&replace bot for this. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 21:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
::::::I have one with the interwiki bot. :P [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 23:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Yeah but that uses the pywikipediabot, not the technically superior API ;) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 13:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
::::::::As long as you make it so you can interface bots on the Specialpage area, that would make it superior. Never have to go into Shell to run commands. :) [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 13:57, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::I could add a special page interface to my bots, good idea. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 16:23, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::: <nowiki>:)</nowiki>[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 18:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::It is odd, though. "Guess what's coming to dinner," isn't a question. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 00:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

== Roslin's Book ==

when I watched the episode I tried to burn into my skull the title of the book that Roslin brought with her in the Raptor to go see the Hybrid with Baltar. (camera pans down to her lap and you can clearly read the title). Not that it really matters, but in the persuit of knowledge gathering it might be nice to note somewhere. Anyone remember the title...Seahawk something or something hawk? I'm at work at the moment and can't find a clip of the final few mins of the episode anywhere.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 14:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Asclepius/Archive 1

2008-05-05T19:49:11Z

Gallion: New page: I've got this weird feeling, hunch and perhaps fanwank :) I'll let you guys be the judge :I've been thinking about recent events and I knew that something was coming together in my head. B...

I've got this weird feeling, hunch and perhaps fanwank :) I'll let you guys be the judge
:I've been thinking about recent events and I knew that something was coming together in my head. But I think I can formulate something worth while to contribute here. I'll start with What some people have mentioned before, the "Thirteenth Zodiac Sybol", which is called Ophiuchus. Ophiuchus which the ancient Greeks often equated with Asclepius, was believed to be the God of Healing, and was even able to bring back the dead! Asclepius and Ophiuchus origins have been suggested to have been greatly influenced by the Oldest western diety to have been tied to healing, The Egyptian God Isis (interstingly, Isis was the temporary name for Hera, who inadvertantly healed Rosalyn of her cancer for a short time). Anyway, Ophiuchus or Asclepius both have relationships with serpants, The constellation Ophiuchus is known as The Snake Wrestler, while The symbol for Medicine in today's real world western society is the Staff of Asclepius (also the same symbol that one of Baltar's followers was holding in the form of an idol to Asclepius). Also in the writings of Pythia, sperpants are mentioned numerous times, They appeared to Roslyn, and were also described in an ancient battle where serpents 10 and 2 lead a successful attack against an enemy.

I was also interested to see Orion appear in the stars in that infamous cylon-on-cylon attack, what strikes me as interesting as well is that from Earth, Ophiuchus appears opposite Orion in the Sky. Is it not said somewhere that the fleet must pass through the Sign of the 13th tribe on their way to earth? Also its interesting that this "local space" area would be the sight of Starbuck's return from death.

My final intersting item is that The most important event in Ophiuchus' history was the Supernova of 1604, which was first observed on October 9, 1604. Strangely enough The fleet had just recently experienced a Supernova type situation at the temple of the 5, and noted that a similar supernova-like experience had happend many years ago. The supernova located in the Ophiuchus constellation is a mere 59 light years away from earth.

Anyway this all might be rambling and fit for deletion, but maybe someone else can glean some viable information out of my verbal spillage here.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 19:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Gallion

2008-04-22T18:45:20Z

Gallion:

-CANADIAN
-PROFESSIONAL ARTIST (seriously)
-ALL-INCLUSIVE SCI-FI FAN...SOME OF THE WORST STUFF IS TOTALLY THE BEST.
[of course, BSG is the best *cough*]

Talk:The Ties That Bind/Archive 1

2008-04-22T12:51:22Z

Gallion: /* Interesting Comments about Orion Sighting */

Is this title a hint to [[Saul Tigh|everyone's favourite alcoholic colonel]]? [[User:OTW|OTW]] 19:23, 21 June 2007 (CDT)
:That would be "The Tighs That Bind". hehe. Like "Tigh me up, Tigh me down". That was a nice play on words. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 01:22, 22 June 2007 (CDT)

== SG1 thing? ==

Is the SG-1 thing really necessary? After all, I'm sure that here are tons of television shows that have similar names -- for instance, I'm sure that there are shows that have episodes named "Faith". To be honest, I find nothing significant in that note. Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki — ''New''] 13:22, 13 October 2007 (CDT)
:Agreed. Usually it's simple title that get reused often, but since this is a fixed expression it's not so surprising. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:25, 13 October 2007 (CDT)
::Didn't know "The Ties That Bind" was like a common expression (one of the downsides of being a near-native, but still non-native, English speaker), I was under the impression it was simply a Biblical quote. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 13:49, 13 October 2007 (CDT)
:::The origin is of course that bible quote, but if you google it, you'll also find a Bruce Springsteen song and many news articles that use it. For example "The ties that bind China, Russia and Iran" or "Sony Cuts the Ties That Bind Walkman" or "Technologies to untie the ties that bind". And for TV, an episode of "The OC" shares that name too, so Stargate shouldn't be singled out. We already pay way too much attention to it with cast notes. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:55, 13 October 2007 (CDT)
::::Right. I just didn't know TTTB was a common expression. Removing. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 13:59, 13 October 2007 (CDT)

== Image ==

May I suggest taking some image that is a) smaller b) oriented horizontally, not vertically? Current image breaks s.4 episode guide and is a bit too big. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 17:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
:It's already scaled down and it might not be so obvious once that page is filled with content. The only other interesting image would be [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=283&pos=1 this] (I can get a high-res version). Or we could crop the current one at her waist. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
::My vote goes to [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=283&pos=1 this], right. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
::: It depends, because Cally... ahem. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 19:15, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
:::: Then crop it at least if it must be Cally. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 20:25, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
::I say [http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=283&pos=3 this one] How many do have Cheif and Tory? We have lots with Roslin and crew. :) [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 03:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Well, it's not like there is a shortage of things about the Final Five, either on screen or online, so I chose pictures that are about something else. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Mixing it up is good. I been thinking about making them all random <code>{{#random:image1.jpg,etc}}</code> [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 15:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

== Orion ==
At about 28 minutes, when the other baseships jump in, the constellation of Orion is clearly visible in the background. Worth mentioning on the entry?--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 10:57, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. Not only did you see Orion, but also Taurus and the Pleiades - and most importantly, as you would see them if you were within ~50 light years of Earth. --[[User:Qprmeteor|Qprmeteor]] 12:39, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

== Acts vs. Location Format ==
I feel that this guide would be much easier to read and follow if it was in a Location format instead of by Acts. IMHO, YMMV, ect. -- [[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:09, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah. that's the way I orginally had it setup before spenc uploaded his thing :P [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 16:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
::Sorry, didn't look at the history. It just seems harder to read this way. -- [[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Hey. Wasn't blaming ya. :) I gues I'll pick apart his summary and switch everything around. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 16:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
::::We have most of the guides in act format since that's how the episode translates. While this may be easy to read, it also throws the order of the story out of whack. I figure we have to do this on a case-by-case given the number of scene shifts, so.... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:15, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::Not so much scene shifts, but number of ''independent'' story lines. Sometimes, there are two different settings, but heavily intercut and dependent on each other. Like the stuff in "The Eye of Jupiter" and "Rapture". One the other hand, the Caprica, Kobol and Cylon story lines stand for themselves and can have an own section. That's how we always did it. Nothing new :) -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

== Nicky Cylon or Human ==

I wonder if this episode shows how the story hits on pure fiction rather than sci-fi with the case of Nicky being a cylon. Nicky is a boy, which would mean there has to be a Y chromosome. If Tyrol is truly a Cylon, then Cally could only have a female child. They stated earlier in the series that the skinjobs could not reproduce without human donors. Reading the sci-fi forums and original series (way back to deception to the Cylons/Baltar by Specter, and how the Beings of Light 'try' not to interfere) may provide a spoiler to what is to come next from this episode if it stays on the sci-fi side. If it goes fiction, maybe it be worth noting what made Nicky a boy and a cylon before someone yells "that's not sci-fi!" (The Science Note: women can reproduce women without men in genetic experiments of fertilization, but women do not carry/make the Y chromosome to reproduce a male.) (Podcast note: [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Podcast:Frak_Party_Q_and_A#hybridnick]) [[User:Dzonatas|Dzonatas]] 21:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
:They did not state anything about human donors. They stated that Cylons could not reproduce with each other, and could not reproduce with humans unless there was love. Cally and Tyrol love each other, imperfect as their marriage might be, so Nicky was conceived like Hera. No reason he shouldn't have a Cylon Y chromosome. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:40, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
:::RDM has stated the the final five are fundamentally different than the others, so what is know about the significant seven may not apply. -- [[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
::::Plus, what is known about the signficant seven doesn't rule it out. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::So, we can say that Nicky is fundamentally different when compared to Hera. The plot just grows more from this episode about them and brings questions, but the difference can be noted on the Nicky or Hera page. I was going to add something to the article, but I felt it was better to wait another episode. Thanks -- [[User:Dzonatas|Dzonatas]] 03:17, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::For now, we don't know of any fundamental differences between Nicky and Hera yet. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 03:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

== Inappropriate use of Point of Order? ==

According to Robert's Rules of Order, a Point of Order is raised if the rules of order have apparently been broken. In this case, rules don't seem to have been broken, and Lee is really just interrupting to bring up his own issues (which could be construed as out of order). The closest motion that I could find is a Request for Any Other Privilege, which he would then use to try to bring up a more pressing issue, but this is still an iffy case. [[User:Ctetc2007|Ctetc2007]] 10:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
:Standing-up at the table is a request to yield. The one who has the floor is the one who can decide to yield the floor. If Lee continued without the floor being yielded to him, then it would be out of order. Notice that Lee does ask for the floor to yield. The point of order is to get the answer to yield the floor and to quiet everybody else that does not have the floor. Roslin immediately tabled the issue that Lee brought up. Lee sits down, and the floor is returned. He could have requested an immediate call to vote to handle the issue, but typically it would have to be by some disastrous or emergency situation to call to vote on non-agenda items. Why didn't he make that case at that time? [[User:Dzonatas|Dzonatas]] 14:51, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

== Interesting Comments about Orion Sighting ==
The [http://community.livejournal.com/battlestar_blog/992976.html post] might be worth reading. Didn't know about the [[w:Ophiuchus |thirteenth sign]] until now. Any astrophysicists on board to judge this info? -- [[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

:This is a great little read (the link above). Even the bit about the Cylons of Greece (an aditional link once there). I was wondering, has anyone seen/made a super-speculative galactic map of where the fleet might be? especially now that with being able to pin point the rough neighbourhood the fleet is now in.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

== Monitoring Launch Tubes ==

The reason nobody notices the launch tubes being used is probably due to the Galactica's lack of automation. There's no central computer to track these things, and the over-worked state of Galactica's repair crew probably means that the logs that would track these things (assuming there's a counter at all) aren't being kept properly.

Of course, this doesn't explain why there wouldn't be guards.

— [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 01:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

:Well, at least they already established that nobody was paying attention to the launch tubes in last season's "[[Collaborators]]"... --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
::Poor Jammer. :( [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 05:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

: This might be indeed a flaw by design, but one that they should have fixed after the first Cylon war. The Cylons boarded ships via airlocks and launch tubes and used them as weapon to vent the crew out of the ship. In such a situation the security team etc. should know where to look for the enemy. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 10:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Talk:The Woman King/Archive 1

2007-02-06T15:54:58Z

Gallion: /* Concurrent with "Taking a Break?" */

==Programming Note==
As many in the United States know, the [http://www.superbowl.com/ Super Bowl] American Football championship game is February 4. For most in our country, that game is a holiday-like event with as much national pride and rivalries as the international World Cup championship games. Since any TV programming that plays alongside the Super Bowl won't get many viewers, it appears that the SciFi Channel chose to pre-empt ''Battlestar'' to the following week. Just to let you know before you search for a torrent of the next episode.

I, for one, will certainly be watching, as I'm a resident of Indinaapolis, home of the Colts and one of the teams in the game. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:48, 30 January 2007 (CST)

: Da Bears will win. End of line. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 07:16, 31 January 2007 (CST)
::Get the to see the Super bowl over the pond too :D --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:45, 31 January 2007 (CST)
:: DAAAAAAAAAAA BEARS. I'll miss my weekly Galactica fix, however :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:53, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Wild and Crazy speculation!!!!!!!! ==
OK, OK, OK, OK! I know somebody is going to blow my last addition out of the water about the GateWorld crap but I just create a link to a page that has revealed some now confirmed data even though there is other unconfirmed data in the article. I wanted to create the opportunity for the reader to make an assessment for him/herself. I know, I know, I know the policies on this stuff, but I'm testing the waters.... --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 15:04, 23 September 2006 (AST)

== Title ==

"Woman King" is the title of a song and E.P. album by Iron & Wine. Maybe someone on the writing staff is a fan? --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 06:37, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

== Concurrent with "Taking a Break?" ==

Is there any information or thought as to whether this episode takes place at the same time as the previous episode, "[[Taking a Break from All Your Worries]]?" It would make some sense, as this episode is rumored to involve Hera under the care of Dr. Robert, and Athena was in a rush to get a sick Hera to a doctor at the end of "[[Rapture]]." It would also explain where Helo and Sharon are during "Taking a Break," since they weren't featured there at all, with the seemingly urgent Hera storyline oddly dropped.

Of course, the idea of "[[Black Market]]" and "[[Scar]]" being concurrent came up as the second season aired, but that was disproved. This might just be a random idea. I guess we'll find out for sure in two weeks. --[[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 20:12, 29 January 2007 (CST)
:It might also explain why [[Robert|Doctor Robert]] is treating Hera instead of Cottle as he is busy with the interrogation drugs on Baltar. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:31, 2 February 2007 (CST)
::Keep in mind though, that Cottle is not on Sharon's "A" list right about now either. Probably, since he played quite a big roll in faking Hera's death and hiding the baby away...Maybe Helo and Sharon wanted to seek...a second opinion. Unfortunatly, if that's the case looks like he won't be a good choice!--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 09:54, 6 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:Final Five/Archive 1

2007-01-12T13:42:24Z

Gallion: /* ID */

I took the image into photoshop (I do minor image tweaking at my job), did everything I could to enhance it, just for fun. And I'd like to make a grandiose speculation that the Five look, well, slightly mutilated...or mutated. Botched Cylon experiments, torutred and insane minds!!! I don't know, That one "fellow's" hand reaching to Three looks awefully stumpy...of course it could always be some foreshortening.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:57, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Yup, totally convinced they are mutilated and grotesque, their faces, albiet shrouded are just a little odd and produce strange shadow tones.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 11:17, 3 January 2007 (CST)

:It is also possible that the show is intentionally masquerading their faces to allow the show to cast anyone in these roles at a later time, rather than fixing the faces of the characters right away. In any case, any interpretations of these promo shots are too speculative to make a valid assessment. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:38, 3 January 2007 (CST)

We should get rid of the main picture - we don't know for sure that they are in fact the Final Five, they may be simply a hallucation on the part of D'eanna when she resurrects/is boxed.
Or perhaps the five temple priests who are not Cylons. Point is, we don't know --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 06:26, 10 January 2007 (CST)
:Writer's often portray canon information through a character, in this case D'Anna. That is the same vision she always has when she dies, we've already seen a part of the scene on "Hero", and it's what she's been seeing again and again. Her sketches and such are merely her representations of what she saw, this picture is what she actually saw. Anyways, even if you choose to not believe D'Anna, and even if you doubt the only logical explanation, I think David Eick confirmed that it's them she sees on a EW article. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:53, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== ID ==

Looking at the high resolution picture, I can identify most of the actors in these robes. Whether they actually are the Final Five Cylons or whether this is just a dream sequence and they grabbed whoever was convenient is not clear. From the left to the right:

# Aaron Douglas, better known as Chief Tyrol. The stature and facial features are a perfect match.
# Tahmoh Penikett, better known as Helo. This isn't as certain, but the lower face and stature both match.
# Unidentified female
# Unidentified female
# The big, bald Asian pilot who's always in the rec room.

[[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 21:32, 9 January 2007 (CST)

No two cylons can have a child which makes Tahmoh Penikett wrong. Don't know about the others, though the "Chief" guy is certainly too short --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 06:21, 10 January 2007 (CST)

:Major kudos if you are correct, cause I cartainly can't see it myself :P -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 06:27, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::They're just stand-ins, they don't release promo pics at random, and they wouldn't reveal anyone in such a way when having a chance to do it on screen. But as said before, those faces are vague enough to be almost anyone. They might have similarities, but a lot of people in the world can have similar features without looking the same. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:32, 10 January 2007 (CST)

::The thing of it is, is; we're all going to see what we want in them untill we actually see them. I'm pretty sure I'm not right (above comment) and fairly sure when they did these Promo pics and ambiguous #3 "in the hinterlands of Cylon death land" dreams, that they wouldn't have cast definite actors...it's a pretty significant choice to make of who should play the roles...so, stick some people in robes and shrouds to stand in and any old person will do for the snippets, clips, dream scenes and teaser tastys. we won't know 'till we know--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:42, 12 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:The Eye of Jupiter/Archive3

2007-01-03T18:20:36Z

Gallion: /* Nuking the Planet */ minor edit.

I wonder if it has to do with that big red spot... *rollseyes* --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:48, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm more reminded of that Writer's Podcast thing, you know when they're saying "How many more times are we going to find an artifact like the Arrow of Apollo and have to search for them all? That feels like going back to the well too many times, I mean what are we going to say, "Athena has 10 sacred toenail clipping scattered across space, you have to find them all...?" :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:49, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:i'm thinking along the lines of some jewelry. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:57, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

::It sounds like a good plotline actually. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:05, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Merv - you just made me spill forth mein coca cola whilst reading the section about the sacred toenail clippings - thats too much for 3am on a sunday morning! Still, plot looks good, just wish Season 3 would hurry up and AIR dammit! :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 21:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
::::No, really, they make a joke about "Athena's toenail clippings" in that writer's podcast thing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:12, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I have a few possible meanings for 'eye of Jupiter' --[[User:starryniteynite|starryniteynite]]

1) Relatively obscure name for NGC 3242, a planetary nebula (A ring of illuminated gas expanding out from a sun-like star that's exhausted its fuel, and has lost its outer layers) a few thousand light years from Earth. Most astronomers call this 'the Ghost of Jupiter' instead, though some Hubble images have used this name. Its not a very unique PN (tho it has some gas streamers we can't quite explain), but it could be used as a navigational marker like M8 (the lagoon nebula). It is a very pretty nebula :)

2) "Eye of Jupiter" was the Greek/Roman name for the sun, which lead to today's 'all seeing eye' symbol of the free masons and on the pyramid in US currency

3)Adama=Zeus=Jupiter...yes, they tend to use Greek vs. Roman names, but the titles are not always consistent with this convention, and we have also seen evidence for non Greek mythological names (Isis, for example). The rest of it could be wordplay too...'eye' might refer to someone acting as Adama's eyes, rather than his eyes literally (just as 'The captain's hand refereed to Lee acting as Gardner's XO, or his hand, rather than some captain's literal hand)

4)A reference to Jupiter's big red spot, a huge hurricane-like storm on the planet's surface. Just like the "bastille Day" title, this could reference something in the episode, but not directly...they might travel through a similar storm. This has actually been done before in the miniseries, when Galactica travels into the storm at Ragnar

5) The tried and true, ancient object meaning...just like the arrow of Apollo directly references a character, but has no link to the character himself, this could just be a pretty piece of bling..

Personally, I would love #1, but only because it'd make me 2/2 for BSG objects in my thesis and I'm a total, unabashed geek. I think its probably #2, however, and they find some sort of navigational means of finding Earth (like a picture of Earth w/ distances& directions to three pulsars or very unique objects

== Duelling Sharons ==

So did anyone else get a sense of animosity/jealousy between the two Sharons? While it seems that Boomer has accepted her place amongst the Cylons and no longer considers herself a part of the humans, it also seems that she's a bit jealous of Athena's "taking her place", if you could call it that. Likewise, it also seemed that aside from her duties as a Colonial officer, Athena's refusal to let Boomer in with Adama was also somewhat out of personal distrust, ironically the same distrust of the Cylons that her fellow Colonial colleagues have.

Also, while Boomer told Athena about Hera's condition out of possible concern of the child (possible strain of humanity left in her? Cylon imperative? Or something else?), seems to me that Boomer enjoyed bursting her "sister"'s bubble on that. Talk about sibling rivalry there.

It'll be interesting to see if there will be any further Sharon vs. Sharon confrontations in the series.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 23:55, 15 December 2006 (CST)

:It was a very, very interesting dynamic. In any other show, we would have had a knock-down dragout "catfight." You hit the nail on the head. This episode was prime stuff. And, we on the wiki should be commended: our ''Galactica'' nuke count is right on the money! (Either that, or the show is using ''us'' as a source! :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:20, 16 December 2006 (CST)

::Does that mean we can finally change the "Class-D Nuclear Warhead" to something completely different, since their nukes ''aren't'' Class-D? :P --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:42, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Image==
Let's find an image that actually occurs in this episode. Maybe the wide shot of Tyrol in the temple? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Heh which one? to me it seems the Chief was a bit wide in ALL shots ; how could he gain weight while the fleet was starving? the chief definitely deserves the Lee Adama Fat-Ass trophy --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 03:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:Maybe it was Chief, and not Dr. Cottle, that got all of Kat's energy bars from the last ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:25, 16 December 2006 (CST)

So... is someone with the means actually going to replace the image with one relevant to this episode? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 21:12, 20 December 2006 (CST)

:Silly joking aside, I agree that the picture should be replaced. I'd do it, but I don't have a good screencap --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:34, 23 December 2006 (CST)

:I happen to have the episode, so, it's done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:57, 23 December 2006 (CST)

::Well, I still see a thumbnail of the old image here and there (e.g. on the main page or on Mercifull's user page). -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:09, 27 December 2006 (CST)

:::You may need to purge your browser's image cache to see the new image. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:12, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::I've just purged my Maxthon's image cache a moment ago and I still see an old thumbnail. Tried that also with Opera and Firefox -- all the same. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 04:27, 28 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Starbuck survive?==
Horray for the carelessness of adverts! Within ten minutes we knew the answer to that one. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Aside from that, it's going to continue the cycle of Soap Opera unease there, if Dee's the one sent to go get Starbuck back. Can't wait to see the uncomfortable stares on that one, especially if (as I suspect) Dee set up Starbuck to be the "eye in the sky" '''hoping''' the Cylons would shoot her down.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Who else was supposed to fly the mission? Looks like Lee and Kara are the only two qualified pilots on the ground and Lee is needed in overall command. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:34, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Too good to be true==
When we Baltar's voice over ''Galactica'''s speaker, the closed caption actually identifies him as "Cylon over speaker". I know that's not really meant to be taken as anything, but with all the speculation, it seems like a shining goof, or maybe even someone taking a good piss out of the [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|whole thing]]. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Nuking the Planet==

Does anyone else think that the nuclear missiles have the ability to be detonated remotely, before they reach their target? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:44, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Not to mention abort code transmissions, etc. Makes you wonder if the missiles were set for "one shot, one kill" mode, where they could not be recalled.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Or perhaps the missiles can be aborted, until they reach a critical flight time. Could make for a ''very'' tense moment or two. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:Is it just me or didn't he actually give the order to fire. He said "release of nuclear weapons is now authorized". That might sound strange, but I took that to be a preliminary order to firing. For example that now even Tigh would be able to launch them on his say --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:03, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::No, you're correct on that; essentially all they were doing was opening the "barn doors". I was discussing the hypotheticals of the missiles, if they should be launched in the next ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:33, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:::Aye, we're just jumping the gun a little, and discussing possibles ways out of it, if Adama does indeed decide to launch :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 02:17, 21 December 2006 (CST)

::::Am I the only one who thinks he might be targeting the nukes for the Raiders on their way to the surface? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:53, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:::::Then why this-
:::::'''Adama''':Load target package three-bravo. Set ground zero for the underground structure.
::::: -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:19, 29 December 2006 (CST)

:::::: Damn, I missed that. Consider me stumped, then. -[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:17, 30 December 2006 (CST)

I watched the episode for the first time last night. I had this theory after the show ended...If the star of this system is going to go supernova, as Gaeta has described,

("Gaeta: Could be tomorrow. Could be next year. There's no way of knowing for sure, sir. When it does happen, the only warning that we're likely to get is a fast helium flash, at which point we'll have to jump out of here before it obliterates the entire planetary system. Sir, I am not one to look for religious signs. But I can't get my head around these odds. That human and Cylon both converge on this planet at this exact moment just as the star's about to go supernova…")

there most likely is an abundance of solar phenomena being emitted from the sun, maybe an increase of solar flares even. Solar flares have the "energy equivalent to a billion megatons, traveling normally at about 1 million km per hour"..."They produce electromagnetic radiation across the electromagnetic spectrum at all wavelengths from long-wave radio to the shortest wavelength gamma rays:(solar flare wiki ref.) I know that Solar Flares can disrupt electronics on and orbiting earth, and I'm sure Galactica's systems are somewhat protected from bursts of electromagnetic energy...but somehow I had the idea that the nukes are probably not as well insulated. Since there is so much solar activity in the region, I had the idea that maybe something like a flare (not the helium flash Gaeta talked about) would happen just as the nukes were launched..causing them to blow in the upper atmosphere directly over the temple. This would allow for quite a light show, and perhaps could allow that light shaft in the Temple of Five to be intensified. On the BaseStar with Baltar and Three, the Hybrid mentions something about "the five lights of the apocalypse" here:

"Hybrid: ...I don't care if it rains or freezes, as long as… the five lights of the apocalypse rising scenes revealed only to those who enter the temple only to the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one end of line. Until next time … the eye the eye the eye look into the eye to know thyself."

Maybe this is the way the temple is activated, maybe this is how the eye of Jupiter (Jupiter/Zeus/Adama's nukes) appears over the temple and activates the key...and Hey, maybe the solar flare would take care of the Heavy Rader flight systems too...Who knows, just an idea I had wished to share.

"Chief: And the heavens opened up, and they saw the Eye. But where is that frakking Eye?"

--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:08, 3 January 2007 (CST)

:Holy crap that's a good theory. Wow. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 12:06, 3 January 2007 (CST)

== WTF moment ==

I was on the [[Karl Agathon]] page, updating it for this ep's news, when I came across [[:Image:Valley_of_Darkness-Starbuck_Helo.jpg|this old picture]]. Considering how Kara's painting looks and that she's religious (though not indoctrinated in any sort of clerical form, unlike Chief Tyrol's parentage), does anyone think that (in hindsight), this may have been a hint to the Eye itself?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:37, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: It actually makes a lot of sense... Taking Zeus to mean Admiral Adama, and that Kara Thrace is the go-to pilot for reconnaissance missions, AND the paintings on the walls, we have a plausible theory in the works! —The preceding '''unsigned''' comment was added by {{User|Alcibiades}}.
: Are you kidding me?! They set this episode up a year ago! --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: I find it pretty hard to believe too, but that painting ''really really really'' looks like the art in the temple. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 20:41, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Maybe they though it would be a nice idea to take that painting, put it in the Temple more than a season later, and see if we notice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::It's a painting in her room and part of the column in the temple. :) --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:31, 19 December 2006 (CST)
: So Starbuck is an artist. She paints The Eye of Jupiter. Is it a known symbol or is this the first time anyone else has seen it? If it's not well-known, what does that say about Starbuck? Doesn't it make her prescient? Maybe her true calling is as an oracle. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:29, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::I'm with Catrope here. If I'm remembering my "Valley Of Darkness" podcast correctly, Tahmoh and Katee painted the apartment themselves, without any direction from Ron or the rest of the show crew. It's quite possible that someone noticed that particular pattern and decided to make it significant. And, hey, maybe she ''is'' an Oracle who just hasn't realized that she has the gift. Give the girl some chamalla and see what she can do. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Starbuck found a spiritual calling to fill the enormous gaps in her soul that she tries to fill with sex, booze, speed, duty, and violence. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:33, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:A friend of mine told me he though the painting and the decoration looked a lot like a star or an explosion, and then brought up the word "supernova". Could this picture be some sort of reference to the star going supernova? (I must admit I'm contradicting myself here, because I said earlier I thought the similarity to be some sort of an inside joke. Of course it's possible that Sackhoff&Penikett accidentally painted something that looked like an explosion, and that's why the writers chose that particular painting.) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:36, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== 18 Casualties & Relevance to "The Passage" ==

If 18 people were lost from '''The Passage''' episode, that means that 17 (at most) were aboard those two lost civilian ships, right? I'm only bringing this up to clarify what transpired — from that, and what we saw, the Raptors would pair up with a civilian ship, and that ship's passenger complement would be transferred onto ''Galactica'' (more heavily shielded, combat FTL drive) for the ferry run through the cluster. The civilian ship would then be crewed by an absolute bare minimum number of crewers. Then, when the group reached the other side of the cluster, the passengers would be transported back to their ships (if they survived the passage), the ships would remain at "Algae-planet", and ''Galactica'' would turn around and go back to the original side to repeat the cycle over again for a new group of civilian ships?

Am I reading/viewing this right? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:53, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:The ships were manned by skeleton crews. That was even mentioned in "The Passage" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:01, 16 December 2006 (CST)

: Don't forget that 14 days have transpired. there could have been more births in the fleet. I just came up with the difference from the two episodes--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

== Humanoid Cylons recognize each other on sight ==

While back on New Craprica, Number 3 knew right away that it was Sharon Agathon. Of course, who else would be trying to remove the ship's launch keys?

This episode, we see that Athena knew on sight that this Number Eight was Boomer. Interesting.

Can Cylons tell on sight which of the copies they are? It's already established that the bulletheads can't.

Note in last weeks episode, Baltar was able to pick The D'anna number three out of the hallway on sight, even though there is an identically dressed number three in the same hallway. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 16:50, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Those two instances do prove that they do recognize one another, which was hinted at in the "[[Cylon Agent]]" page. I guess now it's more than a hint. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:54, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Names of marines==
Has anyone heard (or seen in close captions) the names of the marines that were with Starbuck and Dualla? I know one of them is [[Fischer]], but the other three? I heard something like: Criggs, Verek, Ditko. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:According to the caption, it's Griggs and Varrick; the spelling/pronouncation of the third lad is anyone else's guess. For some reason, the closed caption for this episode doesn't pick up everything for me. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:48, 17 December 2006 (CST)

::OK, we know that it's [[Fischer]], [[Griggs]], [[Varrick]], [[Henick]] and [[Ditko]]. Since after she says "Henick and Ditko" the camera centers first on the black guy and then on the bald guy, can we assume that the first one is Henick and the latter one is Ditko, and the one in a hat is Griggs? It's conjectural, but looks reasonable to me and it would be nice to add pictures to their articles. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 14:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Location of the Eye? ==

At the end of the episode, Tyrol says something about "the sky will open, and the eye will be revealed." Did that make anyone else think of the star going nova? -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 22:15, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Good idea, but is it possible that such a "blowup" could be predicted in the sacred scrolls thousands of years ago? -- [[User:SuperMMX|SuperMMX]] 01:15, 17 December 2006 (CST)
::Why not? A race of humans capable of traveling from Kobol to Earth probably knows at least as much about stellar evolution as the Colonials [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:39, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: The [[Sacred Scrolls]] have so far contained information about [[Laura Roslin]] being sick, [[Sharon Agathon]] helping them to find the [[Tomb of Athena]], and more... In addition to various prophetic dreams... Sure, they could have predicted it. -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 11:26, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:When Tyrol commented about blowing up the Temple, I already thought "What if the Eye is INSIDE the pillar and they have to blow it up to get it out?" But surely an explosion destroying the entire system would destroy the Eye as well? And if it didn't, the Eye would not be easy to find between the debris of an entire planet. But blowing up a pillar doesn't exactly qualify as "the sky will open"... Maybe it refers to blowing up the roof or something like that... --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:04, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: Note the shaft of light streaming across the central pillar in the final scenes of the episode. Perhaps something will be revealed when it becomes centered upon the prominent symbol seen there. --[[User:Spidey3|Spidey3]] 12:29, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::That was the way my mind was working. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:39, 18 December 2006 (CST)
I believe that the Sky Opening Up will be the explosion of the nuclear weaponry activating or destroying something which will then reveal the Eye. --[[User:Teal Thanatos|Teal Thanatos]]

== Boomer in the brig? ==

Did Boomer get thrown in the galactica brig once Athena pointed her out? Was she allowed to return to the Basestars? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:49, 17 December 2006 (CST)

I doubt it because they probably would have it done right there rather than holding her outside first. I'm sure they let her leave with the others and advised her not to let the door hit on the arse on the way out. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:46, 17 December 2006 (CST)

:Besides, the least thing they need on ''Galactica'' right now would be Boomer to break out of the brig, throw on a uniform and have a "Guess the Sharon" contest. Aside from that, I expect that kind of trite plotwork I just mentioned from lesser sci-fi series, not this one.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Summary ==

We really need a longer summary up there, the only point it currently mentions is kind of random -_- --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:58, 17 December 2006 (CST)

== D'anna's search for the five vs. the Temple of Five ==

I haven't seen much discussion on the connection between "the five" Cylons and the Temple of the Five. Since the Temple was built by the 13th tribe, a connection doesn't seem likely in a conventional linear timeline; but like the painting in Starbuck's apartment, it's hard to dismiss as a mere coincidence.

Such a connection does, however, clear up some verisimilitude issues for me – namely, the rate at which the Cylon's biological technology advanced in relation to both Cylon and Colonial conventional technology.

In less than 40 years' time, the Cylons were able to develop the Cylon Agents – and in such a way that made indiscernable from humans – and all of the ressurection technology that went with it. Meanwhile, their conventional, mechanical technology hasn't made nearly the same leaps. And Colonial technology hasn't advanced much at all. Pegasus was a much more formidable vessel than Galactica, but only in terms of size and firepower. Technologically speaking, they weren't that dissimilar. Everyone's still using nuclear missles as their most advanced form of weaponry.

Clearly, the Cylons have had a little help. Now, with dual references to a group of five that must not be named, we're starting to get an idea of from where that help may have come.

I'm not sure how that jibes with the Cylon's monotheistic religion (also established within those 40 years), versus the Colonies' polytheism, but I'm sure Mr.Moore has it worked out.

How great it is to have a show with a fleshed out story line already established, as opposed to the "make it up as we go" approach to shows like Star Trek (all incarnations), X-Files and Lost over our last 40 years. {{unsigned|Tylonius}}

:To ''Battlestar's'' credit, it did take a while to flesh out the story from a viewer's perspective, but what we know is quite intriguing. Their God and the Colonial gods may be one and the same, and may change how the Cylons treat the Colonials and vice versa. I don't think the five faces will be all shown, but we might see one. And yes, it is good to enjoy a show that makes a greater effort to maintain a consistent storyline. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:01, 18 December 2006 (CST)

::Time may not be an issue. Remember the Colonial Scriptures are full of prophecies, it wouldn't be too farfetched to assume that the Temple of Five could've been constructed for something before it happened, for the purpose of making it happen in due time.

::The Five could do whatever releated them to the temple much like Roslin is directly related to finding the tomb Athena, even though she lived thousands of years after everything else was set.

::This is all speculation, of course, but oh well....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 13:59, 19 December 2006 (CST)

:::The Final Five are directly connected to the Temple of Five: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/12/one_of_the_cent.html -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:16, 20 December 2006 (CST)

::::“Essentially the Temple of the Five is directly connected to the five Cylons we have not seen.” - RDM
::::I've been thinking about the ambiguous ''sins'' the [[Hybrid]] mentions, that appear to be in regards to the Five. My working theory is that the five priests who served "The One Who Cannot Be..." and the Five Cylon Models who served the Cylon God both committed the ''sin'' of Rebellion, and that both dieties they rebelled against are one and the same. I also (big leap now), think that Model One is among the Rebel Five. Being rebel ''Angels of God'' (as Virtual-Six refers to herself), that would make One the RDM-equivalent to TOS-Lucifer, now wouldn't it? Chief and first of the (from the cylon perspective) "fallen" angels (as opposed to speculation that One ''is'' the Cylon God) --[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 02:16, 23 December 2006 (CST)

== Human Nicknames ==
I cropped the following from the episode summary. Nothing against either point, just taking it off until somebody can figure out how to reconcile it into a single level deep bullet point (or points).
Cropped text:
*This is the first time the Cylons use "human" names on the basestar when not speaking to Baltar. D'Anna is named by Caprica-Six and another Number Three. Cavil's name is used by D'Anna.
**It is possible that these names are nicknames for the Cylons who've been amongst the humans (much like Caprica-Six), but it could also be the writers weaseling out of coming up with numbers for Cavil, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]] and [[Simon]]. In ''[[The Passage]]'', D'Anna even mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons".
Thanks. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Err how about:
*This episode marks the first time the Cylons use "human" names when not speaking to Baltar: Caprica-Six and another Three call D'Anna by her human name, who in turn uses Cavil's name. These could be nicknames for Cylons who've been living among humans (cf. [[Caprica-Six]]).
*Once again, the writers have dodged the issue of [[Cavil]]'s, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s and [[Simon]]'s numbers. In "[[Torn]]", Caprica-Six says "The ones you know as Leoben...", in "[[The Passage]]" Number Three mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons" and in this episode a Three simply calls one of the Cavils "Cavil".

Please correct my style here, I didn't know exactly how to quote/paraphrase things like "one of the Simons" etc. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:One bullet point might be enough if the second part is connected with a word like "thus". However we shouldn't use "weasling". It sounds too negative and critical where criticism isn't really needed. Maybe something like "dodging the issue" or "circumventing"? That means the same and isn't as POV.
:Btw: episode names aren't italicized, but put in quotation marks --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Edit first post, episode titles quoted instead of italicized, second bullet point reprashed and "weaseling" changed to "dodged".
I don't think joining the bullet points with "this" between them is going to make this any clearer. I also don't think it's necessary, as both points may be related but analyse different things (the remaining numbers vs. Cylon naming convention). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:28, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:I think the writers are working with established names for convenience. They may not want to create a number yet to not confuse some viewers or there may be a grand scheme of introducing more numbers later in the season or another season that involves the 5 unknown cylon models. They could be maintaining flexibility for themselves in this case. They also know that the people who care the most are us die-hard fans and they can drag us through the mud without giving us more info, but I don't think so with as generous and courteous as Ngarenn is on BW:OC.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 11:10, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::It wouldn't be too hard to introduce a new number though. We've heard plenty of statements like "We Threes think we can't take the risk.", ideal statements to introduce new numbers with. Of course these numbers aren't a big deal, but die-hard fans tend to like to know these details. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::True. Though the more detail the introduce, the more chances they have to get it wrong. Even with the few model numbers we have revealed RDM sometimes has [[Podcast:The_Passage#Act_1|difficulty keeping them straight]], confusing the Eight's (Sharons) with the Three's (D'annas). Either way, we'll be here, documenting. I sometimes wonder if we're (the die-hard detail documenters) aren't his worst nightmares (if we even bothers thinking about us). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:52, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::::I always thought it was a nice nod to buckaroo banzai where all the villains had the same first name. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 22:05, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::I believe it would make sense that there is a plan with rolling out the remaining agent numbers. For example, whether or not "One" is one of the missing Five has a great deal of bearing on the development of the cylon narrative, and so would be kept quiet until the episode revealing that fact. If He/She is one of the missing Five, but "Two" is not, then Two's identity ([[Cavil]], [[Leoben]], or [[Simon]]) also has a great deal of bearing on the narrative. Cavil has been shown using some leverage on Three. He's got my money for being Two. I think One is with the missing Five.--[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 22:58, 25 December 2006 (CST)

== Question on article ==

*When did [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] go over to the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons']] way of thinking? In this episode she clearly doesn't seem to think of herself as human anymore like she did in "[[Downloaded]]."
:I had assumed that by LDYB, II that the Cylons had gone over to Boomer and Caprica-Six's way of thinking, hence their (C-six and Boomer) sudden rise to power as well as the sudden Cylon cease-fire. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:24, 19 December 2006 (CST)

== Hera ==

I cannot believe that Adm. Adama has apparently no idea what happened to Hera. He was involved in this discussion in [[Downloaded]]. He should knew that Hera and her foster mother moved to [[New Caprica]]. I am very surprised that he became so angry after Roslin told him that she kept the child in her school. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 17:21, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:Adama and Roslin only agreed in "[[Downloaded]]" that Sharon cannot be allowesd raise the baby. Maybe he assumed/was told that Hera was killed by Cottle? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:34, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::That they concluded at the discussion that the child should be killed would fit with this episode events and Baltars look at the end of "Downloaded" when being chided by his internal six. However that option was mentioned onscreen and the entire tone of the conversation at that point makes it seem somewhat unlikely that this would been the final decision. Given that Baltar was never in on the adoption-plot (he apparently didn't know Hera was alive on New Caprica) and we now know Adama didn't know about it either the discussion outcome must have been either to kill the child or to postpone the decision (with Heras apparent death solving the problem). I'm quite willing to buy that Adama believed the child had died a natural death, given that complication in a hybrid between man and machine were to exspected. But I have troubles with Roslin doing it all behind Adamas back (why did she have to do that?) and Adama not making a decision whatever immediately (in Downloaded). [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 17:40, 21 December 2006 (CST)

== Recent Summary Reorganization Problems ==

I'm normally OK about reorganization of a summary, but the recent one handled by SgtPayne creates more work and confusion. Links previously added are missing, conventions once there are missing, and the narrative flow of the summary is extremely confusing. Normally we can break up events by location (events on Galactica, basestars, planets) because they are mostly separate events that don't directly connect, but this episode has both Cylons and Colonial events occurring in response to each other and in "real-time." I am ''this close'' to rolling back the summary and adding edits made afterwards to restore both narrative flow and conventions, but I wanted comments from others first. As an admin I would just roll it back because of all the wikilinking and convention breakage, but it's more than that. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:36, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:This is one that I might suggest we do "Act" reporting summary. So the events are intertwined. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:56, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::I believe that's exactly what the summary contained before that infamous edit: a chronological report of the events in this episode. Since everything and everyone interacts with eachother and is at the same place, that would be a logical choice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:03, 20 December 2006 (CST) (I hate edit conflicts)
:I haven't checked it for style and links, but I agree that the summary should be chronological. Splitting up the locations is fine if they aren't related. But as you said, here they are heavily interwined and dependent on each other --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:57, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:'''Revert.''' It looked better the way it was. The new split makes for a very confusing read. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)

I have reverted the article and restored relevant edits made after that reorganization. One persistant edit that I keep changing involves the "shaft of light" in the Temple as Tyrol is inspecting the symbology in the Temple. That "shaft" is Tyrol's flashlight beam. While that direct light ''might'' do something unexpected as it approaches the central target-shaped symbol, it's not coming from some mystic source within the structure. I've clarified this in the article. Contributors are always free to edit it, but its fairly clear, so analysis should be used to interpret what it might do. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:48, 20 December 2006 (CST)

In light of the recent reversion, I should drop my two cents in regarding the "reorganization". When I first read the article, I felt that it was too "narrative" rather than "summary", which is what the section suggests. The consolidation was an attempt to make the information as concise as possible. I also attempted to keep as many reference links as necessary. In regards to the location split, this was done in line with previous articles, which had definitive locations. My apologies if it confused readers, but it should be said that summaries are just that, and should not be play-by-play accounts of the episode. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 12:18, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:The location split you introduced is good practice when there are multiple storylines that do not interfere with eachother. A nice example of that is "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]". In most episodes this is the case (end s1-begin s2 even had 3 or 4 separate storylines), but in this particular episode the three locations affect eachother so greatly that the split you introduced makes for extemely confusing reading: a bullet point in the basestar story references events told in the Galactica part, and viceverse. (Let's not even start about the Algae Planet part). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:45, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::You bring up a good point. In trying to put it together, there were some areas where I wasn't sure where to put it. On the whole, I was looking to clean it up a bit. Trying to read it line-for-line blurs out after a while... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 14:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::I've broken up the summary into acts. It seems to solve both problems. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:24, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::aye. nice job. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:34, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::::I concur. It definitely cleans up the look of the page. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:55, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Missile Tubes==
Where exactly are they and shouldnt that be an article in "Galactica Areas" Snorkel378

:They are located on the dorsal side of the ship, slightly forward of the four guns ahead of the Colonial seal, and sit in two rows of six. And sure, why not create an article in that section? -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:12, 29 December 2006 (CST)

== More Nested Analysis ==
*The [[tylium]] planned for the mines could only come from their single Raptor. This supports the [[Substances in the Re-imagined Series#The Tylium Question|high energy yield of the fuel]] that, at the same time, would not sacrifice the Raptor's flight ability.
**It's also possible that the tylium used was fuel stored at the camp to power its generators and/or refuel the Raptors and other ships involved in the harvest.
Please resolve these into either one or two single-level bullets, then re-add to the article. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:56, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:Done. I also updated the nuke count in this section. Admiral Adama orders launch tubes four through ten loaded, which means he's prepared seven nuclear warheads, not six. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:05, 22 December 2006 (CST)
::Nicely done. Thanks! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:51, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Playing with the date? ==

In Kobol's Last Gleaming, they stated the ruins on Kobol were 2000 years old, "around the time of the exodus of the 13 tribes". When they found the beacon at the Lion's Head Nebula, they said it was 3000 years old, and now they're saying the Temple of Five is at least 4000 years old. Each time they give a new date a thousand years earlier, it seems to still coincide with the exodus date of the thirteenth tribe.

Am I the only one noticing this inconsistancy?

: My memory may be off, but I was under the impression that the 13th tribe left Kobol long before the other twelve. So... maybe the 13th tribe left 4k years ago, and the rest left 2k years later. Fanwankery? Spotty memory on my part? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 02:08, 25 December 2006 (CST)

::Both, sort of. The date in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I" refers to all thirteen tribes collectively. In "A Measure of Salvation" and "The Eye of Jupiter", they refer to the thirteenth tribe alone.
::'''Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I'''
:::Roslin: How old are the ruins?
:::Billy: We won't know for sure until they send a ground team, but the initial estimates have it on the order of approximately 2,000 years.
:::Elosha: That's around the time the thirteen tribes first left Kobol
::'''A Measure of Salvation'''
:::Adama: According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3,000 years ago. Right around the time that the Thirteenth Colony left Kobol.
::'''The Eye of Jupiter'''
:::Tyrol: Our initial radiocarbon dating suggests that the temple's at least 4,000 years old, which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe.
::--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:16, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:::Here's a thought. What if this isn't an accident? We've speculated already that humanity might have emigrated from Earth to Kobol before the thirteenth tribe returned. If the further away from Kobol we get, the older the artifacts we find, what does that tell us? That the thirteenth tribe was traveling not from Kobol to Earth, but from Earth to Kobol. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 06:03, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::Well, it may not be an accident, but the Colonials seem to think that the 13th tribe left Kobol for Earth. So why, upon finding that the artifacts get older as they journey further from Kobol/closer to Earth, would they conclude that the dating analysis confirms their scriptures? Put another way, if they dates say the tribe went from Earth to Kobol, but the scriptures say they went from Kobol to Earth, why aren't the Colonials confused? It's an interesting idea, nonetheless. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:29, 31 December 2006 (CST)

:::::Okay, it could also be that we're giving the Colonials too much credit in their dating. Elosha is a priest. Maybe her date of 2,000 is based on scripture, not fact. Also, the date of 4,000 could just mean that it predates the time that they knew the other 12 colonies left Kobol, thus it had to be built by the 13th tribe. The 13th tribe may have had outposts all throughout the galaxy while still calling Kobol home. Furthermore, since there are apparently 21,000 years of recorded history, maybe to the Colonials a few thousand years of inaccuracy in dating don't really make a difference. You could compare it to modern day humans who confuse the 15th and 16th centuries. Of course, now I'm fully in the territory of fanwanking/making up excuses. The seven months/nine months disparity with regard to the Colonial election was never even acknowledged, so there is a good possibility these inconsistent dates are just a product of sloppiness. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:40, 31 December 2006 (CST)

Nut we Don't know how long it took to get everyone from earth off of kobol because it would take awhile to get huge civilizations away from a planet.Snorkel378

== Dichotomy of Signs to Earth==

I find it rather interesting that the first real sign to Earth that they found was a satellite/probe (first found by the Cylons). This would represent the high tech sign-post to Earth. The second sign to Earth is this hidden "Temple of Five" which is plainly a spiritual sign. Anyone else thing this is very interesting? I wonder what was on the satellite. Too bad RDM didn't allow them to examine it. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 21:57, 26 December 2006 (CST)

==The G-4==
Hey how come in the summary it doesnt mention the G-4 about to go off right by Tyrol? Snorkel378

:*Unaware how events are escalating around and above him, Chief Tyrol illuminates the carved writings of the Temple with his flashlight and reads the inscriptions, trying to locate the actual resting place of the Eye. At one point, his flashlight's beam moves close to the target-shaped symbol in the center of the central spire.
:How about we make that:
:*Having strapped explosives to the central spire of the temple, Chief Tyrol...
:--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:17, 31 December 2006 (CST)

No I mean the activation light on 1 of the explosives is blinking which means it is going to detonate.The article does not mention that.
Snorkel378
:There is nothing to suggest that the blinking lights don't simply mean that it is armed rather than about to explode. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])

Yes but the music can easily tell u what is happening and it has a danger coming sound to it-Snorkel378
:Thats fanwanking. We have seen nothing to suggest that the explosives are about to detonate. All we know is that the explosives are armed and the flashing light could simply be to note that fact. You may very well be right but so far there has been no aired information to say that you are and until the next episode airs we wont know. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 03:24, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:Final Five/Archive 1

2007-01-03T17:17:24Z

Gallion:

Talk:Final Five/Archive 1

2007-01-03T16:58:34Z

Gallion: MInor

Talk:Final Five/Archive 1

2007-01-03T16:57:56Z

Gallion: New page: I took the image into photoshop (I do minor image twaeking at my job), did everything I could to enhance it, just for fun. And I'd like to make a grandiose speculation that the Five look, ...

I took the image into photoshop (I do minor image twaeking at my job), did everything I could to enhance it, just for fun. And I'd like to make a grandiose speculation that the Five look, well, slightly mutilated...or mutated. Botched Cylon experiments, torutred and insane minds!!! I don't know, That one "fellow's" hand reaching to Three looks awefully stumpy...of course it could always be some foreshortening.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:57, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/Serenity

2007-01-03T16:30:54Z

Gallion:

===[[User:Serenity|Serenity]]===
* '''[{{fullurl:Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/Serenity|action=edit}} Vote here]'''
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship|Back to RFA]].

==== Votes ====
* '''Current Count:''' (10/0/0)
* '''Current Date/Time:''' {{CURRENTDAYNAME}}, {{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}, {{CURRENTYEAR}} at {{CURRENTTIME}} (UTC)
* '''RFA Ending:''' {{dateahead|{{JD|2007|1|2}}|7}}

{{Vandal|Serenity}} – Serenity has been a member here since September 1, 2006. Since that time he and I really haven't crossed paths that often. However, as I've monitored the RC I have noticed some patterns in his edits. He makes the kinds of edits that need to be made. Not just updating articles with the latest information from the episodes [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Anthony_Figurski&diff=prev&oldid=96138], but also making necessary maintenance edits [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Survivor_count&diff=prev&oldid=95797], style edits [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Colonial_Marine_Corps&diff=prev&oldid=97060], concision edits [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Tattooed_pilot&diff=prev&oldid=97717], and citation edits [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Henick&diff=prev&oldid=97896]. Most of the time when I check one of his edits it's either the case that I would have made exactly the same edit that he made, or I'm chagrined to have missed making that edit when I've recently touched it. Not only does he do good maintenance, but he generally does a good job of explaining himself, both in the edit summary [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=The_Eye_of_Jupiter&diff=prev&oldid=96441], as well as in talk pages [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Uniforms_%28RDM%29&diff=prev&oldid=77942]. Serenity has exhibited the fastidiousness, commitment, and consistency I believe are requisite for adminship. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:35, 2 January 2007 (CST)

:''Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here:''
sure. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:08, 2 January 2007 (CST)


'''Support'''

# {{Support}} per nomination. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:35, 2 January 2007 (CST)
# {{Support}} Full support from me, I don't think I need to explain my reasons as they have already been well covered --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
# {{Support}} Superb Candidate! [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:22, 2 January 2007 (CST)
# {{Support}} Serenity does good work. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 15:26, 2 January 2007 (CST)
# {{Support}} I've been lurking around here for a very long time and I never seen a problem with anything he does.--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 15:31, 2 January 2007 (CST)
# {{Support}} --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:21, 2 January 2007 (CST)
# {{Support}} --[[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 20:10, 2 January 2007 (CST)
# {{Support}} When I ask him to check out BattleStar Wiki while chatting with him at Ragnar Anchorage, he wasn't sure if he had any thing to contribute. Guess what! You did! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:49, 2 January 2007 (CST)
# {{Support}} -- Serenity challenges the ''status quo'', preventing us old-timers from doing things because "it's what we always do." In addition to good editing and levelheadedness, he is a worthy candidate. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:16, 2 January 2007 (CST)
# {{Support}} -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 07:39, 3 January 2007 (CST)
# {{Support}} in favour. --[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:30, 3 January 2007 (CST)

 
'''Oppose'''

#
 

'''Neutral'''

#
 

==== Comments ====
*
 

==== Questions for the candidate ====

''A few generic questions to provide guidance for voters:''
:'''1.''' What duties, if any, would you anticipate helping with? Please check out [[Battlestar Wiki:Project List]]'s for a list of projects.
::A. Not sure. Currently there is a lot to do with TOS articles, but I don't know that much about TOS. I've seen it of course, but I lack the detailed knowledge others have. I Guess, I could do what I'm doing at the moment: general maintance. But I'm open for suggestions.

:'''2.''' Of your articles or contributions here, are there any about which you are particularly pleased, and why?
::A. I haven't actually created any huge articles. Mostly I make small additions and fixes to existing articles. Bigger contributions of mine are the the summary of [[Pegasus (Extended Version)]] and the reorganization of the table at [[Military Ranks (RDM)]] together with the addition of better rank pin pictures.

:'''3.''' Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or do you feel other users have caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?
::A. I had some edit conflicts, but not out of malice. Just many people editing an article at the same time. I got angry and started over :p

Talk:The Eye of Jupiter/Archive3

2007-01-03T16:13:57Z

Gallion: /* Nuking the Planet */

I wonder if it has to do with that big red spot... *rollseyes* --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:48, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm more reminded of that Writer's Podcast thing, you know when they're saying "How many more times are we going to find an artifact like the Arrow of Apollo and have to search for them all? That feels like going back to the well too many times, I mean what are we going to say, "Athena has 10 sacred toenail clipping scattered across space, you have to find them all...?" :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:49, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:i'm thinking along the lines of some jewelry. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:57, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

::It sounds like a good plotline actually. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:05, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Merv - you just made me spill forth mein coca cola whilst reading the section about the sacred toenail clippings - thats too much for 3am on a sunday morning! Still, plot looks good, just wish Season 3 would hurry up and AIR dammit! :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 21:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
::::No, really, they make a joke about "Athena's toenail clippings" in that writer's podcast thing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:12, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I have a few possible meanings for 'eye of Jupiter' --[[User:starryniteynite|starryniteynite]]

1) Relatively obscure name for NGC 3242, a planetary nebula (A ring of illuminated gas expanding out from a sun-like star that's exhausted its fuel, and has lost its outer layers) a few thousand light years from Earth. Most astronomers call this 'the Ghost of Jupiter' instead, though some Hubble images have used this name. Its not a very unique PN (tho it has some gas streamers we can't quite explain), but it could be used as a navigational marker like M8 (the lagoon nebula). It is a very pretty nebula :)

2) "Eye of Jupiter" was the Greek/Roman name for the sun, which lead to today's 'all seeing eye' symbol of the free masons and on the pyramid in US currency

3)Adama=Zeus=Jupiter...yes, they tend to use Greek vs. Roman names, but the titles are not always consistent with this convention, and we have also seen evidence for non Greek mythological names (Isis, for example). The rest of it could be wordplay too...'eye' might refer to someone acting as Adama's eyes, rather than his eyes literally (just as 'The captain's hand refereed to Lee acting as Gardner's XO, or his hand, rather than some captain's literal hand)

4)A reference to Jupiter's big red spot, a huge hurricane-like storm on the planet's surface. Just like the "bastille Day" title, this could reference something in the episode, but not directly...they might travel through a similar storm. This has actually been done before in the miniseries, when Galactica travels into the storm at Ragnar

5) The tried and true, ancient object meaning...just like the arrow of Apollo directly references a character, but has no link to the character himself, this could just be a pretty piece of bling..

Personally, I would love #1, but only because it'd make me 2/2 for BSG objects in my thesis and I'm a total, unabashed geek. I think its probably #2, however, and they find some sort of navigational means of finding Earth (like a picture of Earth w/ distances& directions to three pulsars or very unique objects

== Duelling Sharons ==

So did anyone else get a sense of animosity/jealousy between the two Sharons? While it seems that Boomer has accepted her place amongst the Cylons and no longer considers herself a part of the humans, it also seems that she's a bit jealous of Athena's "taking her place", if you could call it that. Likewise, it also seemed that aside from her duties as a Colonial officer, Athena's refusal to let Boomer in with Adama was also somewhat out of personal distrust, ironically the same distrust of the Cylons that her fellow Colonial colleagues have.

Also, while Boomer told Athena about Hera's condition out of possible concern of the child (possible strain of humanity left in her? Cylon imperative? Or something else?), seems to me that Boomer enjoyed bursting her "sister"'s bubble on that. Talk about sibling rivalry there.

It'll be interesting to see if there will be any further Sharon vs. Sharon confrontations in the series.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 23:55, 15 December 2006 (CST)

:It was a very, very interesting dynamic. In any other show, we would have had a knock-down dragout "catfight." You hit the nail on the head. This episode was prime stuff. And, we on the wiki should be commended: our ''Galactica'' nuke count is right on the money! (Either that, or the show is using ''us'' as a source! :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:20, 16 December 2006 (CST)

::Does that mean we can finally change the "Class-D Nuclear Warhead" to something completely different, since their nukes ''aren't'' Class-D? :P --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:42, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Image==
Let's find an image that actually occurs in this episode. Maybe the wide shot of Tyrol in the temple? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Heh which one? to me it seems the Chief was a bit wide in ALL shots ; how could he gain weight while the fleet was starving? the chief definitely deserves the Lee Adama Fat-Ass trophy --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 03:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:Maybe it was Chief, and not Dr. Cottle, that got all of Kat's energy bars from the last ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:25, 16 December 2006 (CST)

So... is someone with the means actually going to replace the image with one relevant to this episode? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 21:12, 20 December 2006 (CST)

:Silly joking aside, I agree that the picture should be replaced. I'd do it, but I don't have a good screencap --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:34, 23 December 2006 (CST)

:I happen to have the episode, so, it's done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:57, 23 December 2006 (CST)

::Well, I still see a thumbnail of the old image here and there (e.g. on the main page or on Mercifull's user page). -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:09, 27 December 2006 (CST)

:::You may need to purge your browser's image cache to see the new image. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:12, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::I've just purged my Maxthon's image cache a moment ago and I still see an old thumbnail. Tried that also with Opera and Firefox -- all the same. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 04:27, 28 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Starbuck survive?==
Horray for the carelessness of adverts! Within ten minutes we knew the answer to that one. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Aside from that, it's going to continue the cycle of Soap Opera unease there, if Dee's the one sent to go get Starbuck back. Can't wait to see the uncomfortable stares on that one, especially if (as I suspect) Dee set up Starbuck to be the "eye in the sky" '''hoping''' the Cylons would shoot her down.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Who else was supposed to fly the mission? Looks like Lee and Kara are the only two qualified pilots on the ground and Lee is needed in overall command. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:34, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Too good to be true==
When we Baltar's voice over ''Galactica'''s speaker, the closed caption actually identifies him as "Cylon over speaker". I know that's not really meant to be taken as anything, but with all the speculation, it seems like a shining goof, or maybe even someone taking a good piss out of the [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|whole thing]]. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Nuking the Planet==

Does anyone else think that the nuclear missiles have the ability to be detonated remotely, before they reach their target? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:44, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Not to mention abort code transmissions, etc. Makes you wonder if the missiles were set for "one shot, one kill" mode, where they could not be recalled.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Or perhaps the missiles can be aborted, until they reach a critical flight time. Could make for a ''very'' tense moment or two. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:Is it just me or didn't he actually give the order to fire. He said "release of nuclear weapons is now authorized". That might sound strange, but I took that to be a preliminary order to firing. For example that now even Tigh would be able to launch them on his say --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:03, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::No, you're correct on that; essentially all they were doing was opening the "barn doors". I was discussing the hypotheticals of the missiles, if they should be launched in the next ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:33, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:::Aye, we're just jumping the gun a little, and discussing possibles ways out of it, if Adama does indeed decide to launch :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 02:17, 21 December 2006 (CST)

::::Am I the only one who thinks he might be targeting the nukes for the Raiders on their way to the surface? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:53, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:::::Then why this-
:::::'''Adama''':Load target package three-bravo. Set ground zero for the underground structure.
::::: -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:19, 29 December 2006 (CST)

:::::: Damn, I missed that. Consider me stumped, then. -[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:17, 30 December 2006 (CST)

I watched the episode for the first time last night. I had this theory after the show ended...If the star of this system is going to go supernova, as Gaeta has described,

("Gaeta: Could be tomorrow. Could be next year. There's no way of knowing for sure, sir. When it does happen, the only warning that we're likely to get is a fast helium flash, at which point we'll have to jump out of here before it obliterates the entire planetary system. Sir, I am not one to look for religious signs. But I can't get my head around these odds. That human and Cylon both converge on this planet at this exact moment just as the star's about to go supernova…")

there most likely is an abundance of solar phenomena being emitted from the sun, maybe an increase of solar flares even. Solar flares have the "energy equivalent to a billion megatons, traveling normally at about 1 million km per hour"..."They produce electromagnetic radiation across the electromagnetic spectrum at all wavelengths from long-wave radio to the shortest wavelength gamma rays:(solar flare wiki ref.) I know that Solar Flares can disrupt electronics on and orbiting earth, and I'm sure Galactica's systems are somewhat protected from bursts of electromagnetic energy...but somehow I had the idea that the nukes are probably not as well insulated. Since there is so much solar activity in the region, I had the idea that maybe something like a flare (not the helium flash Gaeta talked about) would happen just as the nukes were launched..causing them to blow in the upper atmosphere directly over the temple. This would allow for quite a light show, and perhaps could allow that light shaft in the Temple of Five to be intensified. On the BaseStar with Baltar and Three, the Hybrid mentions something about "the five lights of the apocalypse" here:

"Hybrid: ...I don't care if it rains or freezes, as long as… the five lights of the apocalypse rising scenes revealed only to those who enter the temple only to the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one end of line. Until next time … the eye the eye the eye look into the eye to know thyself."

Maybe this is the way the temple is activated, maybe this is how the eye of Zeus (Adama's nukes) appears over the temple and activates the key...and Hey, maybe the solar flare would take care of the Heavy Rader flight systems too...Who knows, just an idea I had wished to share.

"Chief: And the heavens opened up, and they saw the Eye. But where is that frakking Eye?"

--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:08, 3 January 2007 (CST)

== WTF moment ==

I was on the [[Karl Agathon]] page, updating it for this ep's news, when I came across [[:Image:Valley_of_Darkness-Starbuck_Helo.jpg|this old picture]]. Considering how Kara's painting looks and that she's religious (though not indoctrinated in any sort of clerical form, unlike Chief Tyrol's parentage), does anyone think that (in hindsight), this may have been a hint to the Eye itself?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:37, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: It actually makes a lot of sense... Taking Zeus to mean Admiral Adama, and that Kara Thrace is the go-to pilot for reconnaissance missions, AND the paintings on the walls, we have a plausible theory in the works! —The preceding '''unsigned''' comment was added by {{User|Alcibiades}}.
: Are you kidding me?! They set this episode up a year ago! --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: I find it pretty hard to believe too, but that painting ''really really really'' looks like the art in the temple. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 20:41, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Maybe they though it would be a nice idea to take that painting, put it in the Temple more than a season later, and see if we notice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::It's a painting in her room and part of the column in the temple. :) --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:31, 19 December 2006 (CST)
: So Starbuck is an artist. She paints The Eye of Jupiter. Is it a known symbol or is this the first time anyone else has seen it? If it's not well-known, what does that say about Starbuck? Doesn't it make her prescient? Maybe her true calling is as an oracle. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:29, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::I'm with Catrope here. If I'm remembering my "Valley Of Darkness" podcast correctly, Tahmoh and Katee painted the apartment themselves, without any direction from Ron or the rest of the show crew. It's quite possible that someone noticed that particular pattern and decided to make it significant. And, hey, maybe she ''is'' an Oracle who just hasn't realized that she has the gift. Give the girl some chamalla and see what she can do. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Starbuck found a spiritual calling to fill the enormous gaps in her soul that she tries to fill with sex, booze, speed, duty, and violence. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:33, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:A friend of mine told me he though the painting and the decoration looked a lot like a star or an explosion, and then brought up the word "supernova". Could this picture be some sort of reference to the star going supernova? (I must admit I'm contradicting myself here, because I said earlier I thought the similarity to be some sort of an inside joke. Of course it's possible that Sackhoff&Penikett accidentally painted something that looked like an explosion, and that's why the writers chose that particular painting.) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:36, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== 18 Casualties & Relevance to "The Passage" ==

If 18 people were lost from '''The Passage''' episode, that means that 17 (at most) were aboard those two lost civilian ships, right? I'm only bringing this up to clarify what transpired — from that, and what we saw, the Raptors would pair up with a civilian ship, and that ship's passenger complement would be transferred onto ''Galactica'' (more heavily shielded, combat FTL drive) for the ferry run through the cluster. The civilian ship would then be crewed by an absolute bare minimum number of crewers. Then, when the group reached the other side of the cluster, the passengers would be transported back to their ships (if they survived the passage), the ships would remain at "Algae-planet", and ''Galactica'' would turn around and go back to the original side to repeat the cycle over again for a new group of civilian ships?

Am I reading/viewing this right? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:53, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:The ships were manned by skeleton crews. That was even mentioned in "The Passage" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:01, 16 December 2006 (CST)

: Don't forget that 14 days have transpired. there could have been more births in the fleet. I just came up with the difference from the two episodes--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

== Humanoid Cylons recognize each other on sight ==

While back on New Craprica, Number 3 knew right away that it was Sharon Agathon. Of course, who else would be trying to remove the ship's launch keys?

This episode, we see that Athena knew on sight that this Number Eight was Boomer. Interesting.

Can Cylons tell on sight which of the copies they are? It's already established that the bulletheads can't.

Note in last weeks episode, Baltar was able to pick The D'anna number three out of the hallway on sight, even though there is an identically dressed number three in the same hallway. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 16:50, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Those two instances do prove that they do recognize one another, which was hinted at in the "[[Cylon Agent]]" page. I guess now it's more than a hint. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:54, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Names of marines==
Has anyone heard (or seen in close captions) the names of the marines that were with Starbuck and Dualla? I know one of them is [[Fischer]], but the other three? I heard something like: Criggs, Verek, Ditko. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:According to the caption, it's Griggs and Varrick; the spelling/pronouncation of the third lad is anyone else's guess. For some reason, the closed caption for this episode doesn't pick up everything for me. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:48, 17 December 2006 (CST)

::OK, we know that it's [[Fischer]], [[Griggs]], [[Varrick]], [[Henick]] and [[Ditko]]. Since after she says "Henick and Ditko" the camera centers first on the black guy and then on the bald guy, can we assume that the first one is Henick and the latter one is Ditko, and the one in a hat is Griggs? It's conjectural, but looks reasonable to me and it would be nice to add pictures to their articles. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 14:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Location of the Eye? ==

At the end of the episode, Tyrol says something about "the sky will open, and the eye will be revealed." Did that make anyone else think of the star going nova? -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 22:15, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Good idea, but is it possible that such a "blowup" could be predicted in the sacred scrolls thousands of years ago? -- [[User:SuperMMX|SuperMMX]] 01:15, 17 December 2006 (CST)
::Why not? A race of humans capable of traveling from Kobol to Earth probably knows at least as much about stellar evolution as the Colonials [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:39, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: The [[Sacred Scrolls]] have so far contained information about [[Laura Roslin]] being sick, [[Sharon Agathon]] helping them to find the [[Tomb of Athena]], and more... In addition to various prophetic dreams... Sure, they could have predicted it. -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 11:26, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:When Tyrol commented about blowing up the Temple, I already thought "What if the Eye is INSIDE the pillar and they have to blow it up to get it out?" But surely an explosion destroying the entire system would destroy the Eye as well? And if it didn't, the Eye would not be easy to find between the debris of an entire planet. But blowing up a pillar doesn't exactly qualify as "the sky will open"... Maybe it refers to blowing up the roof or something like that... --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:04, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: Note the shaft of light streaming across the central pillar in the final scenes of the episode. Perhaps something will be revealed when it becomes centered upon the prominent symbol seen there. --[[User:Spidey3|Spidey3]] 12:29, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::That was the way my mind was working. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:39, 18 December 2006 (CST)
I believe that the Sky Opening Up will be the explosion of the nuclear weaponry activating or destroying something which will then reveal the Eye. --[[User:Teal Thanatos|Teal Thanatos]]

== Boomer in the brig? ==

Did Boomer get thrown in the galactica brig once Athena pointed her out? Was she allowed to return to the Basestars? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:49, 17 December 2006 (CST)

I doubt it because they probably would have it done right there rather than holding her outside first. I'm sure they let her leave with the others and advised her not to let the door hit on the arse on the way out. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:46, 17 December 2006 (CST)

:Besides, the least thing they need on ''Galactica'' right now would be Boomer to break out of the brig, throw on a uniform and have a "Guess the Sharon" contest. Aside from that, I expect that kind of trite plotwork I just mentioned from lesser sci-fi series, not this one.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Summary ==

We really need a longer summary up there, the only point it currently mentions is kind of random -_- --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:58, 17 December 2006 (CST)

== D'anna's search for the five vs. the Temple of Five ==

I haven't seen much discussion on the connection between "the five" Cylons and the Temple of the Five. Since the Temple was built by the 13th tribe, a connection doesn't seem likely in a conventional linear timeline; but like the painting in Starbuck's apartment, it's hard to dismiss as a mere coincidence.

Such a connection does, however, clear up some verisimilitude issues for me – namely, the rate at which the Cylon's biological technology advanced in relation to both Cylon and Colonial conventional technology.

In less than 40 years' time, the Cylons were able to develop the Cylon Agents – and in such a way that made indiscernable from humans – and all of the ressurection technology that went with it. Meanwhile, their conventional, mechanical technology hasn't made nearly the same leaps. And Colonial technology hasn't advanced much at all. Pegasus was a much more formidable vessel than Galactica, but only in terms of size and firepower. Technologically speaking, they weren't that dissimilar. Everyone's still using nuclear missles as their most advanced form of weaponry.

Clearly, the Cylons have had a little help. Now, with dual references to a group of five that must not be named, we're starting to get an idea of from where that help may have come.

I'm not sure how that jibes with the Cylon's monotheistic religion (also established within those 40 years), versus the Colonies' polytheism, but I'm sure Mr.Moore has it worked out.

How great it is to have a show with a fleshed out story line already established, as opposed to the "make it up as we go" approach to shows like Star Trek (all incarnations), X-Files and Lost over our last 40 years. {{unsigned|Tylonius}}

:To ''Battlestar's'' credit, it did take a while to flesh out the story from a viewer's perspective, but what we know is quite intriguing. Their God and the Colonial gods may be one and the same, and may change how the Cylons treat the Colonials and vice versa. I don't think the five faces will be all shown, but we might see one. And yes, it is good to enjoy a show that makes a greater effort to maintain a consistent storyline. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:01, 18 December 2006 (CST)

::Time may not be an issue. Remember the Colonial Scriptures are full of prophecies, it wouldn't be too farfetched to assume that the Temple of Five could've been constructed for something before it happened, for the purpose of making it happen in due time.

::The Five could do whatever releated them to the temple much like Roslin is directly related to finding the tomb Athena, even though she lived thousands of years after everything else was set.

::This is all speculation, of course, but oh well....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 13:59, 19 December 2006 (CST)

:::The Final Five are directly connected to the Temple of Five: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/12/one_of_the_cent.html -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:16, 20 December 2006 (CST)

::::“Essentially the Temple of the Five is directly connected to the five Cylons we have not seen.” - RDM
::::I've been thinking about the ambiguous ''sins'' the [[Hybrid]] mentions, that appear to be in regards to the Five. My working theory is that the five priests who served "The One Who Cannot Be..." and the Five Cylon Models who served the Cylon God both committed the ''sin'' of Rebellion, and that both dieties they rebelled against are one and the same. I also (big leap now), think that Model One is among the Rebel Five. Being rebel ''Angels of God'' (as Virtual-Six refers to herself), that would make One the RDM-equivalent to TOS-Lucifer, now wouldn't it? Chief and first of the (from the cylon perspective) "fallen" angels (as opposed to speculation that One ''is'' the Cylon God) --[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 02:16, 23 December 2006 (CST)

== Human Nicknames ==
I cropped the following from the episode summary. Nothing against either point, just taking it off until somebody can figure out how to reconcile it into a single level deep bullet point (or points).
Cropped text:
*This is the first time the Cylons use "human" names on the basestar when not speaking to Baltar. D'Anna is named by Caprica-Six and another Number Three. Cavil's name is used by D'Anna.
**It is possible that these names are nicknames for the Cylons who've been amongst the humans (much like Caprica-Six), but it could also be the writers weaseling out of coming up with numbers for Cavil, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]] and [[Simon]]. In ''[[The Passage]]'', D'Anna even mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons".
Thanks. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Err how about:
*This episode marks the first time the Cylons use "human" names when not speaking to Baltar: Caprica-Six and another Three call D'Anna by her human name, who in turn uses Cavil's name. These could be nicknames for Cylons who've been living among humans (cf. [[Caprica-Six]]).
*Once again, the writers have dodged the issue of [[Cavil]]'s, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s and [[Simon]]'s numbers. In "[[Torn]]", Caprica-Six says "The ones you know as Leoben...", in "[[The Passage]]" Number Three mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons" and in this episode a Three simply calls one of the Cavils "Cavil".

Please correct my style here, I didn't know exactly how to quote/paraphrase things like "one of the Simons" etc. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:One bullet point might be enough if the second part is connected with a word like "thus". However we shouldn't use "weasling". It sounds too negative and critical where criticism isn't really needed. Maybe something like "dodging the issue" or "circumventing"? That means the same and isn't as POV.
:Btw: episode names aren't italicized, but put in quotation marks --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Edit first post, episode titles quoted instead of italicized, second bullet point reprashed and "weaseling" changed to "dodged".
I don't think joining the bullet points with "this" between them is going to make this any clearer. I also don't think it's necessary, as both points may be related but analyse different things (the remaining numbers vs. Cylon naming convention). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:28, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:I think the writers are working with established names for convenience. They may not want to create a number yet to not confuse some viewers or there may be a grand scheme of introducing more numbers later in the season or another season that involves the 5 unknown cylon models. They could be maintaining flexibility for themselves in this case. They also know that the people who care the most are us die-hard fans and they can drag us through the mud without giving us more info, but I don't think so with as generous and courteous as Ngarenn is on BW:OC.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 11:10, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::It wouldn't be too hard to introduce a new number though. We've heard plenty of statements like "We Threes think we can't take the risk.", ideal statements to introduce new numbers with. Of course these numbers aren't a big deal, but die-hard fans tend to like to know these details. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::True. Though the more detail the introduce, the more chances they have to get it wrong. Even with the few model numbers we have revealed RDM sometimes has [[Podcast:The_Passage#Act_1|difficulty keeping them straight]], confusing the Eight's (Sharons) with the Three's (D'annas). Either way, we'll be here, documenting. I sometimes wonder if we're (the die-hard detail documenters) aren't his worst nightmares (if we even bothers thinking about us). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:52, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::::I always thought it was a nice nod to buckaroo banzai where all the villains had the same first name. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 22:05, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::I believe it would make sense that there is a plan with rolling out the remaining agent numbers. For example, whether or not "One" is one of the missing Five has a great deal of bearing on the development of the cylon narrative, and so would be kept quiet until the episode revealing that fact. If He/She is one of the missing Five, but "Two" is not, then Two's identity ([[Cavil]], [[Leoben]], or [[Simon]]) also has a great deal of bearing on the narrative. Cavil has been shown using some leverage on Three. He's got my money for being Two. I think One is with the missing Five.--[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 22:58, 25 December 2006 (CST)

== Question on article ==

*When did [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] go over to the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons']] way of thinking? In this episode she clearly doesn't seem to think of herself as human anymore like she did in "[[Downloaded]]."
:I had assumed that by LDYB, II that the Cylons had gone over to Boomer and Caprica-Six's way of thinking, hence their (C-six and Boomer) sudden rise to power as well as the sudden Cylon cease-fire. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:24, 19 December 2006 (CST)

== Hera ==

I cannot believe that Adm. Adama has apparently no idea what happened to Hera. He was involved in this discussion in [[Downloaded]]. He should knew that Hera and her foster mother moved to [[New Caprica]]. I am very surprised that he became so angry after Roslin told him that she kept the child in her school. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 17:21, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:Adama and Roslin only agreed in "[[Downloaded]]" that Sharon cannot be allowesd raise the baby. Maybe he assumed/was told that Hera was killed by Cottle? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:34, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::That they concluded at the discussion that the child should be killed would fit with this episode events and Baltars look at the end of "Downloaded" when being chided by his internal six. However that option was mentioned onscreen and the entire tone of the conversation at that point makes it seem somewhat unlikely that this would been the final decision. Given that Baltar was never in on the adoption-plot (he apparently didn't know Hera was alive on New Caprica) and we now know Adama didn't know about it either the discussion outcome must have been either to kill the child or to postpone the decision (with Heras apparent death solving the problem). I'm quite willing to buy that Adama believed the child had died a natural death, given that complication in a hybrid between man and machine were to exspected. But I have troubles with Roslin doing it all behind Adamas back (why did she have to do that?) and Adama not making a decision whatever immediately (in Downloaded). [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 17:40, 21 December 2006 (CST)

== Recent Summary Reorganization Problems ==

I'm normally OK about reorganization of a summary, but the recent one handled by SgtPayne creates more work and confusion. Links previously added are missing, conventions once there are missing, and the narrative flow of the summary is extremely confusing. Normally we can break up events by location (events on Galactica, basestars, planets) because they are mostly separate events that don't directly connect, but this episode has both Cylons and Colonial events occurring in response to each other and in "real-time." I am ''this close'' to rolling back the summary and adding edits made afterwards to restore both narrative flow and conventions, but I wanted comments from others first. As an admin I would just roll it back because of all the wikilinking and convention breakage, but it's more than that. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:36, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:This is one that I might suggest we do "Act" reporting summary. So the events are intertwined. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:56, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::I believe that's exactly what the summary contained before that infamous edit: a chronological report of the events in this episode. Since everything and everyone interacts with eachother and is at the same place, that would be a logical choice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:03, 20 December 2006 (CST) (I hate edit conflicts)
:I haven't checked it for style and links, but I agree that the summary should be chronological. Splitting up the locations is fine if they aren't related. But as you said, here they are heavily interwined and dependent on each other --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:57, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:'''Revert.''' It looked better the way it was. The new split makes for a very confusing read. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)

I have reverted the article and restored relevant edits made after that reorganization. One persistant edit that I keep changing involves the "shaft of light" in the Temple as Tyrol is inspecting the symbology in the Temple. That "shaft" is Tyrol's flashlight beam. While that direct light ''might'' do something unexpected as it approaches the central target-shaped symbol, it's not coming from some mystic source within the structure. I've clarified this in the article. Contributors are always free to edit it, but its fairly clear, so analysis should be used to interpret what it might do. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:48, 20 December 2006 (CST)

In light of the recent reversion, I should drop my two cents in regarding the "reorganization". When I first read the article, I felt that it was too "narrative" rather than "summary", which is what the section suggests. The consolidation was an attempt to make the information as concise as possible. I also attempted to keep as many reference links as necessary. In regards to the location split, this was done in line with previous articles, which had definitive locations. My apologies if it confused readers, but it should be said that summaries are just that, and should not be play-by-play accounts of the episode. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 12:18, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:The location split you introduced is good practice when there are multiple storylines that do not interfere with eachother. A nice example of that is "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]". In most episodes this is the case (end s1-begin s2 even had 3 or 4 separate storylines), but in this particular episode the three locations affect eachother so greatly that the split you introduced makes for extemely confusing reading: a bullet point in the basestar story references events told in the Galactica part, and viceverse. (Let's not even start about the Algae Planet part). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:45, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::You bring up a good point. In trying to put it together, there were some areas where I wasn't sure where to put it. On the whole, I was looking to clean it up a bit. Trying to read it line-for-line blurs out after a while... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 14:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::I've broken up the summary into acts. It seems to solve both problems. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:24, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::aye. nice job. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:34, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::::I concur. It definitely cleans up the look of the page. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:55, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Missile Tubes==
Where exactly are they and shouldnt that be an article in "Galactica Areas" Snorkel378

:They are located on the dorsal side of the ship, slightly forward of the four guns ahead of the Colonial seal, and sit in two rows of six. And sure, why not create an article in that section? -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:12, 29 December 2006 (CST)

== More Nested Analysis ==
*The [[tylium]] planned for the mines could only come from their single Raptor. This supports the [[Substances in the Re-imagined Series#The Tylium Question|high energy yield of the fuel]] that, at the same time, would not sacrifice the Raptor's flight ability.
**It's also possible that the tylium used was fuel stored at the camp to power its generators and/or refuel the Raptors and other ships involved in the harvest.
Please resolve these into either one or two single-level bullets, then re-add to the article. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:56, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:Done. I also updated the nuke count in this section. Admiral Adama orders launch tubes four through ten loaded, which means he's prepared seven nuclear warheads, not six. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:05, 22 December 2006 (CST)
::Nicely done. Thanks! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:51, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Playing with the date? ==

In Kobol's Last Gleaming, they stated the ruins on Kobol were 2000 years old, "around the time of the exodus of the 13 tribes". When they found the beacon at the Lion's Head Nebula, they said it was 3000 years old, and now they're saying the Temple of Five is at least 4000 years old. Each time they give a new date a thousand years earlier, it seems to still coincide with the exodus date of the thirteenth tribe.

Am I the only one noticing this inconsistancy?

: My memory may be off, but I was under the impression that the 13th tribe left Kobol long before the other twelve. So... maybe the 13th tribe left 4k years ago, and the rest left 2k years later. Fanwankery? Spotty memory on my part? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 02:08, 25 December 2006 (CST)

::Both, sort of. The date in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I" refers to all thirteen tribes collectively. In "A Measure of Salvation" and "The Eye of Jupiter", they refer to the thirteenth tribe alone.
::'''Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I'''
:::Roslin: How old are the ruins?
:::Billy: We won't know for sure until they send a ground team, but the initial estimates have it on the order of approximately 2,000 years.
:::Elosha: That's around the time the thirteen tribes first left Kobol
::'''A Measure of Salvation'''
:::Adama: According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3,000 years ago. Right around the time that the Thirteenth Colony left Kobol.
::'''The Eye of Jupiter'''
:::Tyrol: Our initial radiocarbon dating suggests that the temple's at least 4,000 years old, which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe.
::--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:16, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:::Here's a thought. What if this isn't an accident? We've speculated already that humanity might have emigrated from Earth to Kobol before the thirteenth tribe returned. If the further away from Kobol we get, the older the artifacts we find, what does that tell us? That the thirteenth tribe was traveling not from Kobol to Earth, but from Earth to Kobol. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 06:03, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::Well, it may not be an accident, but the Colonials seem to think that the 13th tribe left Kobol for Earth. So why, upon finding that the artifacts get older as they journey further from Kobol/closer to Earth, would they conclude that the dating analysis confirms their scriptures? Put another way, if they dates say the tribe went from Earth to Kobol, but the scriptures say they went from Kobol to Earth, why aren't the Colonials confused? It's an interesting idea, nonetheless. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:29, 31 December 2006 (CST)

:::::Okay, it could also be that we're giving the Colonials too much credit in their dating. Elosha is a priest. Maybe her date of 2,000 is based on scripture, not fact. Also, the date of 4,000 could just mean that it predates the time that they knew the other 12 colonies left Kobol, thus it had to be built by the 13th tribe. The 13th tribe may have had outposts all throughout the galaxy while still calling Kobol home. Furthermore, since there are apparently 21,000 years of recorded history, maybe to the Colonials a few thousand years of inaccuracy in dating don't really make a difference. You could compare it to modern day humans who confuse the 15th and 16th centuries. Of course, now I'm fully in the territory of fanwanking/making up excuses. The seven months/nine months disparity with regard to the Colonial election was never even acknowledged, so there is a good possibility these inconsistent dates are just a product of sloppiness. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:40, 31 December 2006 (CST)

Nut we Don't know how long it took to get everyone from earth off of kobol because it would take awhile to get huge civilizations away from a planet.Snorkel378

== Dichotomy of Signs to Earth==

I find it rather interesting that the first real sign to Earth that they found was a satellite/probe (first found by the Cylons). This would represent the high tech sign-post to Earth. The second sign to Earth is this hidden "Temple of Five" which is plainly a spiritual sign. Anyone else thing this is very interesting? I wonder what was on the satellite. Too bad RDM didn't allow them to examine it. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 21:57, 26 December 2006 (CST)

==The G-4==
Hey how come in the summary it doesnt mention the G-4 about to go off right by Tyrol? Snorkel378

:*Unaware how events are escalating around and above him, Chief Tyrol illuminates the carved writings of the Temple with his flashlight and reads the inscriptions, trying to locate the actual resting place of the Eye. At one point, his flashlight's beam moves close to the target-shaped symbol in the center of the central spire.
:How about we make that:
:*Having strapped explosives to the central spire of the temple, Chief Tyrol...
:--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:17, 31 December 2006 (CST)

No I mean the activation light on 1 of the explosives is blinking which means it is going to detonate.The article does not mention that.
Snorkel378
:There is nothing to suggest that the blinking lights don't simply mean that it is armed rather than about to explode. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])

Yes but the music can easily tell u what is happening and it has a danger coming sound to it-Snorkel378
:Thats fanwanking. We have seen nothing to suggest that the explosives are about to detonate. All we know is that the explosives are armed and the flashing light could simply be to note that fact. You may very well be right but so far there has been no aired information to say that you are and until the next episode airs we wont know. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 03:24, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:The Eye of Jupiter/Archive3

2007-01-03T16:08:39Z

Gallion: /* Nuking the Planet */

I wonder if it has to do with that big red spot... *rollseyes* --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:48, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm more reminded of that Writer's Podcast thing, you know when they're saying "How many more times are we going to find an artifact like the Arrow of Apollo and have to search for them all? That feels like going back to the well too many times, I mean what are we going to say, "Athena has 10 sacred toenail clipping scattered across space, you have to find them all...?" :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:49, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:i'm thinking along the lines of some jewelry. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:57, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

::It sounds like a good plotline actually. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:05, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Merv - you just made me spill forth mein coca cola whilst reading the section about the sacred toenail clippings - thats too much for 3am on a sunday morning! Still, plot looks good, just wish Season 3 would hurry up and AIR dammit! :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 21:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
::::No, really, they make a joke about "Athena's toenail clippings" in that writer's podcast thing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:12, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I have a few possible meanings for 'eye of Jupiter' --[[User:starryniteynite|starryniteynite]]

1) Relatively obscure name for NGC 3242, a planetary nebula (A ring of illuminated gas expanding out from a sun-like star that's exhausted its fuel, and has lost its outer layers) a few thousand light years from Earth. Most astronomers call this 'the Ghost of Jupiter' instead, though some Hubble images have used this name. Its not a very unique PN (tho it has some gas streamers we can't quite explain), but it could be used as a navigational marker like M8 (the lagoon nebula). It is a very pretty nebula :)

2) "Eye of Jupiter" was the Greek/Roman name for the sun, which lead to today's 'all seeing eye' symbol of the free masons and on the pyramid in US currency

3)Adama=Zeus=Jupiter...yes, they tend to use Greek vs. Roman names, but the titles are not always consistent with this convention, and we have also seen evidence for non Greek mythological names (Isis, for example). The rest of it could be wordplay too...'eye' might refer to someone acting as Adama's eyes, rather than his eyes literally (just as 'The captain's hand refereed to Lee acting as Gardner's XO, or his hand, rather than some captain's literal hand)

4)A reference to Jupiter's big red spot, a huge hurricane-like storm on the planet's surface. Just like the "bastille Day" title, this could reference something in the episode, but not directly...they might travel through a similar storm. This has actually been done before in the miniseries, when Galactica travels into the storm at Ragnar

5) The tried and true, ancient object meaning...just like the arrow of Apollo directly references a character, but has no link to the character himself, this could just be a pretty piece of bling..

Personally, I would love #1, but only because it'd make me 2/2 for BSG objects in my thesis and I'm a total, unabashed geek. I think its probably #2, however, and they find some sort of navigational means of finding Earth (like a picture of Earth w/ distances& directions to three pulsars or very unique objects

== Duelling Sharons ==

So did anyone else get a sense of animosity/jealousy between the two Sharons? While it seems that Boomer has accepted her place amongst the Cylons and no longer considers herself a part of the humans, it also seems that she's a bit jealous of Athena's "taking her place", if you could call it that. Likewise, it also seemed that aside from her duties as a Colonial officer, Athena's refusal to let Boomer in with Adama was also somewhat out of personal distrust, ironically the same distrust of the Cylons that her fellow Colonial colleagues have.

Also, while Boomer told Athena about Hera's condition out of possible concern of the child (possible strain of humanity left in her? Cylon imperative? Or something else?), seems to me that Boomer enjoyed bursting her "sister"'s bubble on that. Talk about sibling rivalry there.

It'll be interesting to see if there will be any further Sharon vs. Sharon confrontations in the series.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 23:55, 15 December 2006 (CST)

:It was a very, very interesting dynamic. In any other show, we would have had a knock-down dragout "catfight." You hit the nail on the head. This episode was prime stuff. And, we on the wiki should be commended: our ''Galactica'' nuke count is right on the money! (Either that, or the show is using ''us'' as a source! :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:20, 16 December 2006 (CST)

::Does that mean we can finally change the "Class-D Nuclear Warhead" to something completely different, since their nukes ''aren't'' Class-D? :P --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:42, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Image==
Let's find an image that actually occurs in this episode. Maybe the wide shot of Tyrol in the temple? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Heh which one? to me it seems the Chief was a bit wide in ALL shots ; how could he gain weight while the fleet was starving? the chief definitely deserves the Lee Adama Fat-Ass trophy --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 03:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:Maybe it was Chief, and not Dr. Cottle, that got all of Kat's energy bars from the last ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:25, 16 December 2006 (CST)

So... is someone with the means actually going to replace the image with one relevant to this episode? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 21:12, 20 December 2006 (CST)

:Silly joking aside, I agree that the picture should be replaced. I'd do it, but I don't have a good screencap --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:34, 23 December 2006 (CST)

:I happen to have the episode, so, it's done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:57, 23 December 2006 (CST)

::Well, I still see a thumbnail of the old image here and there (e.g. on the main page or on Mercifull's user page). -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:09, 27 December 2006 (CST)

:::You may need to purge your browser's image cache to see the new image. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:12, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::I've just purged my Maxthon's image cache a moment ago and I still see an old thumbnail. Tried that also with Opera and Firefox -- all the same. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 04:27, 28 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Starbuck survive?==
Horray for the carelessness of adverts! Within ten minutes we knew the answer to that one. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Aside from that, it's going to continue the cycle of Soap Opera unease there, if Dee's the one sent to go get Starbuck back. Can't wait to see the uncomfortable stares on that one, especially if (as I suspect) Dee set up Starbuck to be the "eye in the sky" '''hoping''' the Cylons would shoot her down.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Who else was supposed to fly the mission? Looks like Lee and Kara are the only two qualified pilots on the ground and Lee is needed in overall command. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:34, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Too good to be true==
When we Baltar's voice over ''Galactica'''s speaker, the closed caption actually identifies him as "Cylon over speaker". I know that's not really meant to be taken as anything, but with all the speculation, it seems like a shining goof, or maybe even someone taking a good piss out of the [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|whole thing]]. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Nuking the Planet==

Does anyone else think that the nuclear missiles have the ability to be detonated remotely, before they reach their target? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:44, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Not to mention abort code transmissions, etc. Makes you wonder if the missiles were set for "one shot, one kill" mode, where they could not be recalled.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Or perhaps the missiles can be aborted, until they reach a critical flight time. Could make for a ''very'' tense moment or two. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:Is it just me or didn't he actually give the order to fire. He said "release of nuclear weapons is now authorized". That might sound strange, but I took that to be a preliminary order to firing. For example that now even Tigh would be able to launch them on his say --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:03, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::No, you're correct on that; essentially all they were doing was opening the "barn doors". I was discussing the hypotheticals of the missiles, if they should be launched in the next ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:33, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:::Aye, we're just jumping the gun a little, and discussing possibles ways out of it, if Adama does indeed decide to launch :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 02:17, 21 December 2006 (CST)

::::Am I the only one who thinks he might be targeting the nukes for the Raiders on their way to the surface? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:53, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:::::Then why this-
:::::'''Adama''':Load target package three-bravo. Set ground zero for the underground structure.
::::: -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:19, 29 December 2006 (CST)

:::::: Damn, I missed that. Consider me stumped, then. -[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:17, 30 December 2006 (CST)

I watched the episode for the first time last night. I had this theory after the show ended...If the star of this system is going to go supernova, as Gaeta has described,

("Gaeta: Could be tomorrow. Could be next year. There's no way of knowing for sure, sir. When it does happen, the only warning that we're likely to get is a fast helium flash, at which point we'll have to jump out of here before it obliterates the entire planetary system. Sir, I am not one to look for religious signs. But I can't get my head around these odds. That human and Cylon both converge on this planet at this exact moment just as the star's about to go supernova…")

there most likely is an abundance of solar phenomena being emitted from the sun, maybe an increase of solar flares even. Solar flares have the "energy equivalent to a billion megatons, traveling normally at about 1 million km per hour"..."They produce electromagnetic radiation across the electromagnetic spectrum at all wavelengths from long-wave radio to the shortest wavelength gamma rays:(solar flare wiki ref.) I know that Solar Flares can disrupt electronics on and orbiting earth, and I'm sure Galactica's systems are somewhat protected from bursts of electromagnetic energy...but somehow I had the idea that the nukes are probably not as well insulated. Since there is so much solar activity in the region, I had the idea that maybe something like a flare (not the helium flash Gaeta talked about) would happen just as the nukes were launched..causing them to blow in the upper atmosphere directly over the temple. This would allow for quite a light show, and perhaps could allow that light shaft in the Temple of Five to be intensified. On the BaseStar with Baltar and Three, the Hybrid mentions something about "the five lights of the apocalypse" here:

"Hybrid: ...I don't care if it rains or freezes, as long as… the five lights of the apocalypse rising scenes revealed only to those who enter the temple only to the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one the chosen one end of line. Until next time … the eye the eye the eye look into the eye to know thyself."

Maybe this is the way the temple is activated, maybe this is how the eye of Zeus (Adama's nukes) appears over the temple and activates the key...and Hey, maybe the solar flare would take care of the Heavy Rader flight systems too...Who knows, just an idea I had wished to share.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:08, 3 January 2007 (CST)

== WTF moment ==

I was on the [[Karl Agathon]] page, updating it for this ep's news, when I came across [[:Image:Valley_of_Darkness-Starbuck_Helo.jpg|this old picture]]. Considering how Kara's painting looks and that she's religious (though not indoctrinated in any sort of clerical form, unlike Chief Tyrol's parentage), does anyone think that (in hindsight), this may have been a hint to the Eye itself?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:37, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: It actually makes a lot of sense... Taking Zeus to mean Admiral Adama, and that Kara Thrace is the go-to pilot for reconnaissance missions, AND the paintings on the walls, we have a plausible theory in the works! —The preceding '''unsigned''' comment was added by {{User|Alcibiades}}.
: Are you kidding me?! They set this episode up a year ago! --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: I find it pretty hard to believe too, but that painting ''really really really'' looks like the art in the temple. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 20:41, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Maybe they though it would be a nice idea to take that painting, put it in the Temple more than a season later, and see if we notice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::It's a painting in her room and part of the column in the temple. :) --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:31, 19 December 2006 (CST)
: So Starbuck is an artist. She paints The Eye of Jupiter. Is it a known symbol or is this the first time anyone else has seen it? If it's not well-known, what does that say about Starbuck? Doesn't it make her prescient? Maybe her true calling is as an oracle. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:29, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::I'm with Catrope here. If I'm remembering my "Valley Of Darkness" podcast correctly, Tahmoh and Katee painted the apartment themselves, without any direction from Ron or the rest of the show crew. It's quite possible that someone noticed that particular pattern and decided to make it significant. And, hey, maybe she ''is'' an Oracle who just hasn't realized that she has the gift. Give the girl some chamalla and see what she can do. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Starbuck found a spiritual calling to fill the enormous gaps in her soul that she tries to fill with sex, booze, speed, duty, and violence. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:33, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:A friend of mine told me he though the painting and the decoration looked a lot like a star or an explosion, and then brought up the word "supernova". Could this picture be some sort of reference to the star going supernova? (I must admit I'm contradicting myself here, because I said earlier I thought the similarity to be some sort of an inside joke. Of course it's possible that Sackhoff&Penikett accidentally painted something that looked like an explosion, and that's why the writers chose that particular painting.) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:36, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== 18 Casualties & Relevance to "The Passage" ==

If 18 people were lost from '''The Passage''' episode, that means that 17 (at most) were aboard those two lost civilian ships, right? I'm only bringing this up to clarify what transpired — from that, and what we saw, the Raptors would pair up with a civilian ship, and that ship's passenger complement would be transferred onto ''Galactica'' (more heavily shielded, combat FTL drive) for the ferry run through the cluster. The civilian ship would then be crewed by an absolute bare minimum number of crewers. Then, when the group reached the other side of the cluster, the passengers would be transported back to their ships (if they survived the passage), the ships would remain at "Algae-planet", and ''Galactica'' would turn around and go back to the original side to repeat the cycle over again for a new group of civilian ships?

Am I reading/viewing this right? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:53, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:The ships were manned by skeleton crews. That was even mentioned in "The Passage" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:01, 16 December 2006 (CST)

: Don't forget that 14 days have transpired. there could have been more births in the fleet. I just came up with the difference from the two episodes--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

== Humanoid Cylons recognize each other on sight ==

While back on New Craprica, Number 3 knew right away that it was Sharon Agathon. Of course, who else would be trying to remove the ship's launch keys?

This episode, we see that Athena knew on sight that this Number Eight was Boomer. Interesting.

Can Cylons tell on sight which of the copies they are? It's already established that the bulletheads can't.

Note in last weeks episode, Baltar was able to pick The D'anna number three out of the hallway on sight, even though there is an identically dressed number three in the same hallway. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 16:50, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Those two instances do prove that they do recognize one another, which was hinted at in the "[[Cylon Agent]]" page. I guess now it's more than a hint. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:54, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Names of marines==
Has anyone heard (or seen in close captions) the names of the marines that were with Starbuck and Dualla? I know one of them is [[Fischer]], but the other three? I heard something like: Criggs, Verek, Ditko. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:According to the caption, it's Griggs and Varrick; the spelling/pronouncation of the third lad is anyone else's guess. For some reason, the closed caption for this episode doesn't pick up everything for me. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:48, 17 December 2006 (CST)

::OK, we know that it's [[Fischer]], [[Griggs]], [[Varrick]], [[Henick]] and [[Ditko]]. Since after she says "Henick and Ditko" the camera centers first on the black guy and then on the bald guy, can we assume that the first one is Henick and the latter one is Ditko, and the one in a hat is Griggs? It's conjectural, but looks reasonable to me and it would be nice to add pictures to their articles. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 14:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Location of the Eye? ==

At the end of the episode, Tyrol says something about "the sky will open, and the eye will be revealed." Did that make anyone else think of the star going nova? -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 22:15, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Good idea, but is it possible that such a "blowup" could be predicted in the sacred scrolls thousands of years ago? -- [[User:SuperMMX|SuperMMX]] 01:15, 17 December 2006 (CST)
::Why not? A race of humans capable of traveling from Kobol to Earth probably knows at least as much about stellar evolution as the Colonials [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:39, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: The [[Sacred Scrolls]] have so far contained information about [[Laura Roslin]] being sick, [[Sharon Agathon]] helping them to find the [[Tomb of Athena]], and more... In addition to various prophetic dreams... Sure, they could have predicted it. -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 11:26, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:When Tyrol commented about blowing up the Temple, I already thought "What if the Eye is INSIDE the pillar and they have to blow it up to get it out?" But surely an explosion destroying the entire system would destroy the Eye as well? And if it didn't, the Eye would not be easy to find between the debris of an entire planet. But blowing up a pillar doesn't exactly qualify as "the sky will open"... Maybe it refers to blowing up the roof or something like that... --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:04, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: Note the shaft of light streaming across the central pillar in the final scenes of the episode. Perhaps something will be revealed when it becomes centered upon the prominent symbol seen there. --[[User:Spidey3|Spidey3]] 12:29, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::That was the way my mind was working. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:39, 18 December 2006 (CST)
I believe that the Sky Opening Up will be the explosion of the nuclear weaponry activating or destroying something which will then reveal the Eye. --[[User:Teal Thanatos|Teal Thanatos]]

== Boomer in the brig? ==

Did Boomer get thrown in the galactica brig once Athena pointed her out? Was she allowed to return to the Basestars? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:49, 17 December 2006 (CST)

I doubt it because they probably would have it done right there rather than holding her outside first. I'm sure they let her leave with the others and advised her not to let the door hit on the arse on the way out. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:46, 17 December 2006 (CST)

:Besides, the least thing they need on ''Galactica'' right now would be Boomer to break out of the brig, throw on a uniform and have a "Guess the Sharon" contest. Aside from that, I expect that kind of trite plotwork I just mentioned from lesser sci-fi series, not this one.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Summary ==

We really need a longer summary up there, the only point it currently mentions is kind of random -_- --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:58, 17 December 2006 (CST)

== D'anna's search for the five vs. the Temple of Five ==

I haven't seen much discussion on the connection between "the five" Cylons and the Temple of the Five. Since the Temple was built by the 13th tribe, a connection doesn't seem likely in a conventional linear timeline; but like the painting in Starbuck's apartment, it's hard to dismiss as a mere coincidence.

Such a connection does, however, clear up some verisimilitude issues for me – namely, the rate at which the Cylon's biological technology advanced in relation to both Cylon and Colonial conventional technology.

In less than 40 years' time, the Cylons were able to develop the Cylon Agents – and in such a way that made indiscernable from humans – and all of the ressurection technology that went with it. Meanwhile, their conventional, mechanical technology hasn't made nearly the same leaps. And Colonial technology hasn't advanced much at all. Pegasus was a much more formidable vessel than Galactica, but only in terms of size and firepower. Technologically speaking, they weren't that dissimilar. Everyone's still using nuclear missles as their most advanced form of weaponry.

Clearly, the Cylons have had a little help. Now, with dual references to a group of five that must not be named, we're starting to get an idea of from where that help may have come.

I'm not sure how that jibes with the Cylon's monotheistic religion (also established within those 40 years), versus the Colonies' polytheism, but I'm sure Mr.Moore has it worked out.

How great it is to have a show with a fleshed out story line already established, as opposed to the "make it up as we go" approach to shows like Star Trek (all incarnations), X-Files and Lost over our last 40 years. {{unsigned|Tylonius}}

:To ''Battlestar's'' credit, it did take a while to flesh out the story from a viewer's perspective, but what we know is quite intriguing. Their God and the Colonial gods may be one and the same, and may change how the Cylons treat the Colonials and vice versa. I don't think the five faces will be all shown, but we might see one. And yes, it is good to enjoy a show that makes a greater effort to maintain a consistent storyline. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:01, 18 December 2006 (CST)

::Time may not be an issue. Remember the Colonial Scriptures are full of prophecies, it wouldn't be too farfetched to assume that the Temple of Five could've been constructed for something before it happened, for the purpose of making it happen in due time.

::The Five could do whatever releated them to the temple much like Roslin is directly related to finding the tomb Athena, even though she lived thousands of years after everything else was set.

::This is all speculation, of course, but oh well....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 13:59, 19 December 2006 (CST)

:::The Final Five are directly connected to the Temple of Five: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/12/one_of_the_cent.html -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:16, 20 December 2006 (CST)

::::“Essentially the Temple of the Five is directly connected to the five Cylons we have not seen.” - RDM
::::I've been thinking about the ambiguous ''sins'' the [[Hybrid]] mentions, that appear to be in regards to the Five. My working theory is that the five priests who served "The One Who Cannot Be..." and the Five Cylon Models who served the Cylon God both committed the ''sin'' of Rebellion, and that both dieties they rebelled against are one and the same. I also (big leap now), think that Model One is among the Rebel Five. Being rebel ''Angels of God'' (as Virtual-Six refers to herself), that would make One the RDM-equivalent to TOS-Lucifer, now wouldn't it? Chief and first of the (from the cylon perspective) "fallen" angels (as opposed to speculation that One ''is'' the Cylon God) --[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 02:16, 23 December 2006 (CST)

== Human Nicknames ==
I cropped the following from the episode summary. Nothing against either point, just taking it off until somebody can figure out how to reconcile it into a single level deep bullet point (or points).
Cropped text:
*This is the first time the Cylons use "human" names on the basestar when not speaking to Baltar. D'Anna is named by Caprica-Six and another Number Three. Cavil's name is used by D'Anna.
**It is possible that these names are nicknames for the Cylons who've been amongst the humans (much like Caprica-Six), but it could also be the writers weaseling out of coming up with numbers for Cavil, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]] and [[Simon]]. In ''[[The Passage]]'', D'Anna even mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons".
Thanks. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Err how about:
*This episode marks the first time the Cylons use "human" names when not speaking to Baltar: Caprica-Six and another Three call D'Anna by her human name, who in turn uses Cavil's name. These could be nicknames for Cylons who've been living among humans (cf. [[Caprica-Six]]).
*Once again, the writers have dodged the issue of [[Cavil]]'s, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s and [[Simon]]'s numbers. In "[[Torn]]", Caprica-Six says "The ones you know as Leoben...", in "[[The Passage]]" Number Three mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons" and in this episode a Three simply calls one of the Cavils "Cavil".

Please correct my style here, I didn't know exactly how to quote/paraphrase things like "one of the Simons" etc. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:One bullet point might be enough if the second part is connected with a word like "thus". However we shouldn't use "weasling". It sounds too negative and critical where criticism isn't really needed. Maybe something like "dodging the issue" or "circumventing"? That means the same and isn't as POV.
:Btw: episode names aren't italicized, but put in quotation marks --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Edit first post, episode titles quoted instead of italicized, second bullet point reprashed and "weaseling" changed to "dodged".
I don't think joining the bullet points with "this" between them is going to make this any clearer. I also don't think it's necessary, as both points may be related but analyse different things (the remaining numbers vs. Cylon naming convention). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:28, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:I think the writers are working with established names for convenience. They may not want to create a number yet to not confuse some viewers or there may be a grand scheme of introducing more numbers later in the season or another season that involves the 5 unknown cylon models. They could be maintaining flexibility for themselves in this case. They also know that the people who care the most are us die-hard fans and they can drag us through the mud without giving us more info, but I don't think so with as generous and courteous as Ngarenn is on BW:OC.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 11:10, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::It wouldn't be too hard to introduce a new number though. We've heard plenty of statements like "We Threes think we can't take the risk.", ideal statements to introduce new numbers with. Of course these numbers aren't a big deal, but die-hard fans tend to like to know these details. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::True. Though the more detail the introduce, the more chances they have to get it wrong. Even with the few model numbers we have revealed RDM sometimes has [[Podcast:The_Passage#Act_1|difficulty keeping them straight]], confusing the Eight's (Sharons) with the Three's (D'annas). Either way, we'll be here, documenting. I sometimes wonder if we're (the die-hard detail documenters) aren't his worst nightmares (if we even bothers thinking about us). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:52, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::::I always thought it was a nice nod to buckaroo banzai where all the villains had the same first name. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 22:05, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::I believe it would make sense that there is a plan with rolling out the remaining agent numbers. For example, whether or not "One" is one of the missing Five has a great deal of bearing on the development of the cylon narrative, and so would be kept quiet until the episode revealing that fact. If He/She is one of the missing Five, but "Two" is not, then Two's identity ([[Cavil]], [[Leoben]], or [[Simon]]) also has a great deal of bearing on the narrative. Cavil has been shown using some leverage on Three. He's got my money for being Two. I think One is with the missing Five.--[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 22:58, 25 December 2006 (CST)

== Question on article ==

*When did [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] go over to the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons']] way of thinking? In this episode she clearly doesn't seem to think of herself as human anymore like she did in "[[Downloaded]]."
:I had assumed that by LDYB, II that the Cylons had gone over to Boomer and Caprica-Six's way of thinking, hence their (C-six and Boomer) sudden rise to power as well as the sudden Cylon cease-fire. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:24, 19 December 2006 (CST)

== Hera ==

I cannot believe that Adm. Adama has apparently no idea what happened to Hera. He was involved in this discussion in [[Downloaded]]. He should knew that Hera and her foster mother moved to [[New Caprica]]. I am very surprised that he became so angry after Roslin told him that she kept the child in her school. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 17:21, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:Adama and Roslin only agreed in "[[Downloaded]]" that Sharon cannot be allowesd raise the baby. Maybe he assumed/was told that Hera was killed by Cottle? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:34, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::That they concluded at the discussion that the child should be killed would fit with this episode events and Baltars look at the end of "Downloaded" when being chided by his internal six. However that option was mentioned onscreen and the entire tone of the conversation at that point makes it seem somewhat unlikely that this would been the final decision. Given that Baltar was never in on the adoption-plot (he apparently didn't know Hera was alive on New Caprica) and we now know Adama didn't know about it either the discussion outcome must have been either to kill the child or to postpone the decision (with Heras apparent death solving the problem). I'm quite willing to buy that Adama believed the child had died a natural death, given that complication in a hybrid between man and machine were to exspected. But I have troubles with Roslin doing it all behind Adamas back (why did she have to do that?) and Adama not making a decision whatever immediately (in Downloaded). [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 17:40, 21 December 2006 (CST)

== Recent Summary Reorganization Problems ==

I'm normally OK about reorganization of a summary, but the recent one handled by SgtPayne creates more work and confusion. Links previously added are missing, conventions once there are missing, and the narrative flow of the summary is extremely confusing. Normally we can break up events by location (events on Galactica, basestars, planets) because they are mostly separate events that don't directly connect, but this episode has both Cylons and Colonial events occurring in response to each other and in "real-time." I am ''this close'' to rolling back the summary and adding edits made afterwards to restore both narrative flow and conventions, but I wanted comments from others first. As an admin I would just roll it back because of all the wikilinking and convention breakage, but it's more than that. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:36, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:This is one that I might suggest we do "Act" reporting summary. So the events are intertwined. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:56, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::I believe that's exactly what the summary contained before that infamous edit: a chronological report of the events in this episode. Since everything and everyone interacts with eachother and is at the same place, that would be a logical choice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:03, 20 December 2006 (CST) (I hate edit conflicts)
:I haven't checked it for style and links, but I agree that the summary should be chronological. Splitting up the locations is fine if they aren't related. But as you said, here they are heavily interwined and dependent on each other --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:57, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:'''Revert.''' It looked better the way it was. The new split makes for a very confusing read. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)

I have reverted the article and restored relevant edits made after that reorganization. One persistant edit that I keep changing involves the "shaft of light" in the Temple as Tyrol is inspecting the symbology in the Temple. That "shaft" is Tyrol's flashlight beam. While that direct light ''might'' do something unexpected as it approaches the central target-shaped symbol, it's not coming from some mystic source within the structure. I've clarified this in the article. Contributors are always free to edit it, but its fairly clear, so analysis should be used to interpret what it might do. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:48, 20 December 2006 (CST)

In light of the recent reversion, I should drop my two cents in regarding the "reorganization". When I first read the article, I felt that it was too "narrative" rather than "summary", which is what the section suggests. The consolidation was an attempt to make the information as concise as possible. I also attempted to keep as many reference links as necessary. In regards to the location split, this was done in line with previous articles, which had definitive locations. My apologies if it confused readers, but it should be said that summaries are just that, and should not be play-by-play accounts of the episode. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 12:18, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:The location split you introduced is good practice when there are multiple storylines that do not interfere with eachother. A nice example of that is "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]". In most episodes this is the case (end s1-begin s2 even had 3 or 4 separate storylines), but in this particular episode the three locations affect eachother so greatly that the split you introduced makes for extemely confusing reading: a bullet point in the basestar story references events told in the Galactica part, and viceverse. (Let's not even start about the Algae Planet part). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:45, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::You bring up a good point. In trying to put it together, there were some areas where I wasn't sure where to put it. On the whole, I was looking to clean it up a bit. Trying to read it line-for-line blurs out after a while... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 14:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::I've broken up the summary into acts. It seems to solve both problems. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:24, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::aye. nice job. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:34, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::::I concur. It definitely cleans up the look of the page. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:55, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Missile Tubes==
Where exactly are they and shouldnt that be an article in "Galactica Areas" Snorkel378

:They are located on the dorsal side of the ship, slightly forward of the four guns ahead of the Colonial seal, and sit in two rows of six. And sure, why not create an article in that section? -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:12, 29 December 2006 (CST)

== More Nested Analysis ==
*The [[tylium]] planned for the mines could only come from their single Raptor. This supports the [[Substances in the Re-imagined Series#The Tylium Question|high energy yield of the fuel]] that, at the same time, would not sacrifice the Raptor's flight ability.
**It's also possible that the tylium used was fuel stored at the camp to power its generators and/or refuel the Raptors and other ships involved in the harvest.
Please resolve these into either one or two single-level bullets, then re-add to the article. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:56, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:Done. I also updated the nuke count in this section. Admiral Adama orders launch tubes four through ten loaded, which means he's prepared seven nuclear warheads, not six. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:05, 22 December 2006 (CST)
::Nicely done. Thanks! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:51, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Playing with the date? ==

In Kobol's Last Gleaming, they stated the ruins on Kobol were 2000 years old, "around the time of the exodus of the 13 tribes". When they found the beacon at the Lion's Head Nebula, they said it was 3000 years old, and now they're saying the Temple of Five is at least 4000 years old. Each time they give a new date a thousand years earlier, it seems to still coincide with the exodus date of the thirteenth tribe.

Am I the only one noticing this inconsistancy?

: My memory may be off, but I was under the impression that the 13th tribe left Kobol long before the other twelve. So... maybe the 13th tribe left 4k years ago, and the rest left 2k years later. Fanwankery? Spotty memory on my part? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 02:08, 25 December 2006 (CST)

::Both, sort of. The date in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I" refers to all thirteen tribes collectively. In "A Measure of Salvation" and "The Eye of Jupiter", they refer to the thirteenth tribe alone.
::'''Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I'''
:::Roslin: How old are the ruins?
:::Billy: We won't know for sure until they send a ground team, but the initial estimates have it on the order of approximately 2,000 years.
:::Elosha: That's around the time the thirteen tribes first left Kobol
::'''A Measure of Salvation'''
:::Adama: According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3,000 years ago. Right around the time that the Thirteenth Colony left Kobol.
::'''The Eye of Jupiter'''
:::Tyrol: Our initial radiocarbon dating suggests that the temple's at least 4,000 years old, which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe.
::--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:16, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:::Here's a thought. What if this isn't an accident? We've speculated already that humanity might have emigrated from Earth to Kobol before the thirteenth tribe returned. If the further away from Kobol we get, the older the artifacts we find, what does that tell us? That the thirteenth tribe was traveling not from Kobol to Earth, but from Earth to Kobol. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 06:03, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::Well, it may not be an accident, but the Colonials seem to think that the 13th tribe left Kobol for Earth. So why, upon finding that the artifacts get older as they journey further from Kobol/closer to Earth, would they conclude that the dating analysis confirms their scriptures? Put another way, if they dates say the tribe went from Earth to Kobol, but the scriptures say they went from Kobol to Earth, why aren't the Colonials confused? It's an interesting idea, nonetheless. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:29, 31 December 2006 (CST)

:::::Okay, it could also be that we're giving the Colonials too much credit in their dating. Elosha is a priest. Maybe her date of 2,000 is based on scripture, not fact. Also, the date of 4,000 could just mean that it predates the time that they knew the other 12 colonies left Kobol, thus it had to be built by the 13th tribe. The 13th tribe may have had outposts all throughout the galaxy while still calling Kobol home. Furthermore, since there are apparently 21,000 years of recorded history, maybe to the Colonials a few thousand years of inaccuracy in dating don't really make a difference. You could compare it to modern day humans who confuse the 15th and 16th centuries. Of course, now I'm fully in the territory of fanwanking/making up excuses. The seven months/nine months disparity with regard to the Colonial election was never even acknowledged, so there is a good possibility these inconsistent dates are just a product of sloppiness. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:40, 31 December 2006 (CST)

Nut we Don't know how long it took to get everyone from earth off of kobol because it would take awhile to get huge civilizations away from a planet.Snorkel378

== Dichotomy of Signs to Earth==

I find it rather interesting that the first real sign to Earth that they found was a satellite/probe (first found by the Cylons). This would represent the high tech sign-post to Earth. The second sign to Earth is this hidden "Temple of Five" which is plainly a spiritual sign. Anyone else thing this is very interesting? I wonder what was on the satellite. Too bad RDM didn't allow them to examine it. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 21:57, 26 December 2006 (CST)

==The G-4==
Hey how come in the summary it doesnt mention the G-4 about to go off right by Tyrol? Snorkel378

:*Unaware how events are escalating around and above him, Chief Tyrol illuminates the carved writings of the Temple with his flashlight and reads the inscriptions, trying to locate the actual resting place of the Eye. At one point, his flashlight's beam moves close to the target-shaped symbol in the center of the central spire.
:How about we make that:
:*Having strapped explosives to the central spire of the temple, Chief Tyrol...
:--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:17, 31 December 2006 (CST)

No I mean the activation light on 1 of the explosives is blinking which means it is going to detonate.The article does not mention that.
Snorkel378
:There is nothing to suggest that the blinking lights don't simply mean that it is armed rather than about to explode. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])

Yes but the music can easily tell u what is happening and it has a danger coming sound to it-Snorkel378
:Thats fanwanking. We have seen nothing to suggest that the explosives are about to detonate. All we know is that the explosives are armed and the flashing light could simply be to note that fact. You may very well be right but so far there has been no aired information to say that you are and until the next episode airs we wont know. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 03:24, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:The Temple of Hopes/Archive 1

2006-12-01T16:37:44Z

Gallion:

'''The Temple of Five Lords.'''

I knew I had heard this title before somewhere, In Battlestar Galactica's case it does not refer to this. However,

::''"In China where Haikou and Qiongshan border on each other there is a grouping of ancient buildings. The group is comprised of temples, gardens and the houses of five famous ministers of the Tang and Song dynasties. Construction of these ancient buildings began during the reign of Emperor Wanli of the Ming Dynasty. The group takes its name from its main building, which is also called the '''Memorial Temple of Five Lords'''. Nine meters in height, the temple is a two-story wooden building covering a floor-space of 560 square meters. During the Tang and Song dynasties, five outstanding ministers were demoted and exiled to Hainan-the bleak end of the earth at that time. And it was to them that the temple was dedicated. With a golden-glazed board reading “Number One Building of Hainan” hung at the front, the temple has become the most popular site among Hainan’s cultural relics."''
::exerpt taken from[http://www.china.org.cn/english/travel/42545.htm Here]
I know that BSG hasn't used any asian references insofar, but I thought it might be interesting to add, and get the imagination going.
--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:30, 1 December 2006 (CST)

:This really isn't an article since there's nothing really to say. However, we can keep it as a placeholder since we know of [[Number Three]] and her strange vision quest with five luminous beings, and of the Final Five. Probably related. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:51, 1 December 2006 (CST)

::There's nothing to say yet, true... I had thought that there should be at least a "placeholder" as you said, just because there should be an inevitable development around this subject. Anyway never opposed to getting rid of it later if it gets in the way.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:12, 1 December 2006 (CST)

Talk:The Temple of Hopes/Archive 1

2006-12-01T14:12:52Z

Gallion:

'''The Temple of Five Lords.'''

I knew I had heard this title before somewhere, In Battlestar Galactica's case it most likely does not refer to this. However,

::''"In China where Haikou and Qiongshan border on each other there is a grouping of ancient buildings. The group is comprised of temples, gardens and the houses of five famous ministers of the Tang and Song dynasties. Construction of these ancient buildings began during the reign of Emperor Wanli of the Ming Dynasty. The group takes its name from its main building, which is also called the '''Memorial Temple of Five Lords'''. Nine meters in height, the temple is a two-story wooden building covering a floor-space of 560 square meters. During the Tang and Song dynasties, five outstanding ministers were demoted and exiled to Hainan-the bleak end of the earth at that time. And it was to them that the temple was dedicated. With a golden-glazed board reading “Number One Building of Hainan” hung at the front, the temple has become the most popular site among Hainan’s cultural relics."''
::exerpt taken from[http://www.china.org.cn/english/travel/42545.htm Here]
I know that BSG hasn't used any asian references insofar, but I thought it might be interesting to add, and get the imagination going.
--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:30, 1 December 2006 (CST)

:This really isn't an article since there's nothing really to say. However, we can keep it as a placeholder since we know of [[Number Three]] and her strange vision quest with five luminous beings, and of the Final Five. Probably related. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:51, 1 December 2006 (CST)

::There's nothing to say yet, true... I had thought that there should be at least a "placeholder" as you said, just because there should be an inevitable development around this subject. Anyway never opposed to getting rid of it later if it gets in the way.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:12, 1 December 2006 (CST)

The Woman King

2006-12-01T13:40:17Z

Gallion: /* Overview */ minor spelling edit.

{{spoiler}}

{{Episode Data
| title= The Woman King
| season= 3
| episode= 14
| guests=
| writer= [[Michael Angeli]]
| story=
| director= [[Michael Rymer]]
| production=
| rating=
| US airdate= 2007-??-??
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population= ?
| prev= [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]
| next= [[A Day in the Life]]
}}

== Overview ==
:''[[Helo]] investigates the claims of Sagittarons that a doctor is discriminating against them by providing substandard medical care. <ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.tv.com/battlestar-galactica-2003/the-woman-king/episode/832179/summary.html|title=The Woman King }}</ref>''

:''Things are not well with the fleet. With limited medical supplies and even fewer capable doctors, people are getting sick and dying. One young man, Willie King, is the latest victim -- and unconvinced by the initial autopsy report that shows that he (like many others) died of radiation poisoning, his mother demands answers. She is a Saggitaron, and many of her people are starting to believe that they are being discriminated against when it comes to medical care of the fleet.''

:''[[Helo]] goes to Doctor Robert on board one of the ships for some answers. He shows the man a stack of complaint forms against him. Robert isn't surprised at the people's ungratefulness. He shows Helo how grim the situation is. But Helo is concerned when his own young daughter, a half-Cylon, is injured and comes under Robert's care.''

:''Later Helo finds his fellow pilot [[Hot Dog]] is laid up in Roberts' medical bay, and not doing well. Still suspect of Robert's care, Helo eventually tries to take his friend and move him to [[Doctor Cottle]]'s care -- but security and an angry Doctor Roberts prevent him. - Gateworld''

== Summary ==

== Questions ==

== Analysis ==

== Notes ==
The title "The Woman King" was first reported by [http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/index.shtml GateWorld.net] in an [http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/s3/3x1.shtml article] that contains unconfirmed storyline speculation.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

== Official Statements ==
[[Bradley Thompson]] [[Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques#Episode 13|confirmed]] that "The Woman King" is the working title for this episode, but cannot comment on unofficially released storylines. He also states that working titles can change right up to the moment the show debuts.

== Guest Stars ==

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:A to Z|Woman King, The]]
[[Category:Episode Guide|Woman King, The]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)|Woman King, The]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Michael Angeli]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Rymer]]
[[Category:RDM]]

The Temple of Hopes

2006-12-01T13:33:09Z

Gallion: Temple of Five page

The Temple of Five, as revealed in the RDM Season 3 episode, [[The Eye of Jupiter]].

Talk:The Temple of Hopes/Archive 1

2006-12-01T13:30:15Z

Gallion:

Talk:A Measure of Salvation/Archive 1

2006-11-14T18:33:30Z

Gallion: /* Baltar's Torture */ Minor edit

==Picture?==
Is that picture from A Measure of Salvation? I don't remember Three and Six projecting themselves into a forest. The outfits they are wearing look like what they wore while torturing Baltar, so maybe it's from a deleted scene. Unless I've forgotten the scene for some reason, shouldn't we get a picture that actually came from the episode? -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Some Poor Writing ==

Attention to detail is what has set BSG apart from so many other science-fiction shows - including Mr. Moore's Star Trek franchises. So I was very disappointed last night to see the sloppy errors piling up deep. I'd have to see the epsiode again to list them all, but mainly them problems concerned the virus.

The scene where potentially infected Galactica crew are "quarantined", together with Sharon, in a room with cold-storage plastic flaps was ridiculous.

It's preposterous to think that a cylon would casually betray his race for the anti-viral drug. He has no assurance that he won't be double-crossed, and he certainly - even after torture - wouldn't spell out the danger the virus poses to the cylon fleet. The audience isn't stupid and neither should the Galctica crew be. Seeing Lee with a dim little lightbulb over his head was just insulting to us all.

Past episodes have cleary shown that cylon ressurection occurs over significant distances, (greater than FTL jumps), and that calls into question the fundemental logistics of Adama's infection plan.

There would be no reason to jump Galactica itself, just sending one raptor with a cylon transponder and one infected cylon would have done the trick. (Nevermind the ease with which two cylon raiders almost instantly materialize into a whole cylon fleet with a resurrectionship conveniently in tow.)

The analysis on the episode summary page provides an excellent plot device allowing the raid to "succeed" thus justifying the major build-up of the two part story. In fact, it would have made a superb three part arc.

Hypothetical episode 3: Spend some realistic period of time finding a reasonably sized cylon fleet, infect them, virus begins spreading throughout area covered by the "local" resurrection ship. Cylons scramble to head off disease, Baltar gains points by developing Hera vaccine, cylons survive but with major "body-blow" giving Galactica and fleet some breathing room as they prepare to investigate the new lead to Earth.

Please don't get me wrong, I love this show, but sci-fi writing has always been done on the cheap and it make my eyes roll as I struggle to care about characters forced through non-sensical plot contortions. Please, Mr. Moore, DON'T LET BSG SINK TO THE SAME SAD FATE! I'm trusting that this was just a hiccup not a trend.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 13:08, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:In defense of the writers, I think you are wrong on two points:
:*Jumping Galactica makes sense. In [[Scar]] Cylon Raiders are engaging in skirmishes despite the absence of a resurrection ship. A Raptor is not a big enough threat to guarantee the presence of a resurrection ship. If one isn't in range by accident the Cylons would probably engage the Raptor without it and take a minor risk of permanently loosing a few raiders. And after [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]] the Cylons could be exspected to take a closer look to any unexpected Raptors with a Cylon transponder showing up. If they destroy it without a resurrection ship in range, the plans failed. Also Racetrack stated last episode that there is a shortage of Raptors in the fleet, noone is going to be eager to sacrifice one. Jumping Galactica ensures the Cylon require lots of forces, expect lot's of casualties and have a resurrection ship nearby, though I could have done without seeing it arrive on the battlefield, that's bad and inconsistent strategy, just to make sure the audience knows that it is in range.

:*There is probably a greater timespan between arrival of the patrol and that of the strikeforce then shown onscreen. Helo manipulates the oxygen-system after the jump, nevertheless the prisoners are already dead by the time the resurrection ship appears, indicating a least a few minutes have passed. The process can be seen in [[Flight of the Phoenix]] in the firing range scene (it's likely that Helo manipulated the same system).

:Two more plotholes I noticed: How do the Colonials know the Cylon supply lines? And given that they know Athena is immune because she's given birth to a hybrid child, they should wonder if there a more human-cylon hybrids. Even without knowing that Hera is still alive, if the massive Cylon effort to create hybrids resulted in creating at least one more hybrid the cylons would take a blow, but would not be exstinct. By the way it would be nice if we would hear something about these efforts. When Hera is shown for the first time in Cylon hands would be a good opportunity to close that chapter with a throwaway line that all these efforts were fruitless and stopped. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 11:24, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: That's an interesting question -- one that I had myself, actually. Even if the effort didn't destroy the Cylon race (and I think that goal is overly optimistic), the virus would have given a serious blow to the Cylons, which would only serve to give the survivors more breathing room -- not to metion the increase in general morale, which the survivors seriously need after the farce at New Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

I would have to agree the writing is poor. The series seems to be drifting from its roots and moving into the Hollywood PC political statement world. This season has already thrown in suicide bombing and implied it was acceptable, now there is a drift into making political statements about biological weapons (even though nuclear weapons have been freely used in the past.) It seems the writers are abandoning their science fiction roots and reaching to make their own personal social or political commentary. I do hope they get back to what I considered truly exceptional science fiction and stop these editorials.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 00:06, 12 November 2006 (CST)

Followup: According to and article on the Gateworld site ([http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/10/season_three_ratings_slip_from_premiere.shtml]) the ratings have been slipping. As much as I truly love this show, I know my wife and I were both rather disgusted with the previous inclusion of the suicide bombers and now the “loss of humanity” references associated with the potential use of biological weapons. I have also heard complaints from two of our friends. I’m concerned that if this direction is continued it will not only ruin the show, it will also drive away viewers resulting in cancelation. As a long time science fiction fan (I even remember watching the original showings of Lost in Space and the first Star Trek) this has been my all time favorite show up until now. I would hate to see it have an early demise. As I mentioned above, I hope the writers can return to science fiction and entertainment.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 16:13, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: Ratings have been slipping for ''SG-1'' and ''Atlantis'' as well; neither have the strong allegories to today's world, or the world of yesteryear for that matter. So I don't fully buy that there's a direct correlation between the creative direction BSG is going and the loss in viewership. Actually, one could probably argue (more successfully in my informed opinion) that the loss of ratings has more to do with Sci-Fi's scheduling decisions of breaking up the "Three Amigos" (''Stargate SG-1'', ''Stargate Atlantis'' and ''Battlestar Galactica''). As for the "loss of humanity" and suicide bombing themes, these have existed since the miniseries (Number Five's suicide bombing attempt in "[[Litmus]]" and Adama's speech in the miniseries and platitudes since then). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::: In my very informed opinion, I would have to disagree on several points. While time slots and lineup can affect ratings, this usually is reflected in those of the shows with the weaker individual draw. Galactica is a cornerstone show which should draw up the ratings for those around it rather than have such a slump from a lineup change.

::: As for the previous Friday lineup, SG-1 ratings have steadily declined since the departure of Richard Dean Anderson. His departure also seemed to coincide with decline in the quality of the writing, though I’m not convinced the two were related rather than just coincidental. I have always believed the SG Atlantis was the weak link in that lineup and was carried by its position between SG-1 and BSG. As mentioned in the article I referenced above, Dr. Who, which leads into BSG, has had poor ratings this season. I believe the replacement of the very likable actor playing the title role, though consistent with the original BBC series, was a detriment to this series. In addition, this season’s writing has seemed less creative and entertaining. I greatly enjoyed their first season, but have found the current one to be rather dull and uninteresting. This certainly doesn’t help with the Galactica ratings, but I don’t believe it is the major factor in the decline.

::: The introduction of controversial topics into plot lines is often risky, particularly with science fiction which is typically considered pure escapism, even when it has a dark element like BSG (i.e.: The potential extermination of the human race and the continued threat from the Cylon.) Generally, Sci-Fi fans want to escape the real world and be entertained, not lectured on the writers’ political or social views of modern events. While any controversial topic is a risk, the introduction of those that are currently so polarizing is almost a guarantee of distancing a significant portion of your fan base.

::: You associated the bombing executed by a Cylon against those carried out by human suicide bombers. The two aren’t even remotely comparable. The first was not executed by a human, was not condoned by the humans, and was executed by an individual who (as already had been established) would be reborn (“downloaded”) into a new body, but as the same individual. The later was not only condoned by members of the upper human leadership, it was presented as a reasonable and acceptable approach in a given situation – a strong statement considering current world events. (As someone who’s nephew’s squad was attacked by the first suicide bomber in the gulf war, killing many of his squad just a few yards in front of him, I will freely admit to strong personal feelings in this matter. None the less, such controversial plot elements are invariably going to strongly offend a significant number of viewers.) The inference that the humans must limit their use of weapons against an enemy bent on the genocide of humanity is another PC component. Biological weapons as a plot element would have been better completely left out rather than used as a mechanism for additional political commentary. Remember, people watch for entertainment, not a reminder of current events or a thinly disguised lecture from Hollywood writers on their political and social opinions.

::: It is also rather telling that the ratings dropped rather significantly after the season 3 premiere (where suicide bombings by humans were introduced and condoned.) I’ll be interested in seeing how the ratings are affected after this latest one sided (read: “PC”) foray into contemporary controversial issues.

::: --[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 20:40, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::::I doubt that the suicide bombings in Occupation and Precipice were "condoned" by the show. Roslin didn't like them. Tigh, who planned them, thought they were bad. Even Baltar (who's been developing a conscience this season, thank the Gods) didn't like them. The first was a waste of life and counterproductive, causing a massive Cylon freakout that would have killed off Roslin, Zarek, Cally and a bunch of other people if the resistance hadn't saved them in the last minute. The second took down the power grid, which was more helpful, but it should be noted that in this case the bomber didn't kill any civilians, just herself and some Cylons. Tigh is still suffering because of the choices he made on New Caprica, and it doesn't look like he's coming out of those moral woods anytime soon.

::::Furthermore, I don't think the show has condemned the use of the Cylon virus, either. Roslin was all about it, after all, and I don't think there's anything less PC than a schoolteacher with a Messiah complex jonesing for some genocide. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 22:33, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:::: The use of nuclear weapons are logical in a space setting where great distances are involved and ships are heavily armoured. I would suspect, though, that a Presidential order would have been required to use nukes on the surface of a populated planet. The use of bio-weapons would probably have similiar restrictions because of their nature. I disagree that this show was PC. The weapon that the humans stumbled upon had a unique ability to wipe out the entire race of cyclons. To use it does carry far more ethical problems than simply using a nuke on a basestar. To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 09:39, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:::I think the show has been attacking issues that are important in our modern world since the beginning. Basic issues like balance of power, whether civilian government should stay in power during a massive crisis and war, religion in general, how to treat thouse different from yourselves (the show has been very ambivalent about killing Cylons, even though they are "just robots"), Baltar's initial refusal to believe in the gods or a god. It has even tackled thitngs like terrorism as a means to an end (Zarek was introduced at the beginning of the first season), abortion, infanticide, torture, treatment of prisoners. In all, it has been very current and politically involved since the beginning. However, with the first 4 episodes of season 3, it took a decidedly controversial and risky turn by depicting our favorite valiant and noble heros under brutal occupation. The writers have guts, and their ratings may have suffered, but they are doing the same thing they've been doing since the beginning of the show. It's just now a lot of poeple who watch TV don't agree with the particular direction the show took. However, even then, it left the viewer to choose for him or herself what to think, it was again ambivalent, which may be what makes it the best show on TV. No, the show will not supply you with easy answers and moral certitude to very important current questions. But that's a good thing, not a bad thing. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 15:49, 13 November 2006 (EST)

::::I have to agree that it's been dealing with controversial issues from the start. One thing I've learned about BsG from watching it is that every time you think there's a line they won't cross, they seem to cross it. I think Yaneh has it right. Now, with them back in space, I do think it might turn more towards classic sci-fi, but I do agree this is not an unprecedented pattern. As for the writing on this particular episode, I think there were some odd references or slip-ups, which to my mind were made for the sole purpose of bailing Galactica out of the responsibility for a genocide. But I'm not going to judge the whole show at this point--it's WAY too early for that. I'm even more of a music buff than a TV buff, and I don't write off a band until there are 3 stinkers in a row. Let's wait and see if this a pattern before we write BsG off. --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

== Explanations ==

A note about the Resurection ship jumping into the battle... it would seem that this is actually a good tactical move from the Cylon perspective. After Pegasus and Galactica easily destroyed the first resurrection ship and it's escorts, it would be prudent for the Cylons to keep the new ship with their fleet... even if this means taking it into battle with them. From their point of view it might look as if Galactica was trying to sucker the baseships away from the resurrection ship so the colonials could attack it. They've already used the "sucker" strategy a number of times, we could just be seeing a Cylon reaction to that strategy. Bringing the ship with them would negate such a threat as several basestars (more than enough to hold galactica off) would be able to cover for it.

As far as supply lines, it would figure that Galactica would know about this. Basic military strategy is to harass or at least keep an eye on enemy supply lines.

Also a note about the raptors and their missiles. The colonials may have found, after the battle over new caprica, that the missile attachments for the raptors were effective and could be adapted for other (combat) uses as well. It would also figure that after the loss of Pegasus, the colonials would be trying everything they could to increase firepower. This is probably just a jury-rig solution for increasing galactica's firepower.

: And all this has yet to be supported on screen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:45, 13 November 2006 (CST)

::In [[The Captain's Hand]] Admiral Adama orders a recon of 5 Raptors, 2 of them SAR and 3 Escort. Though never seen onscreen heavily armed Raptors must have been around for some time. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:57, 13 November 2006 (CST)

: It is also distinctly possible that the weapon pods were not available until the arrival of the Pegasus. The cache at Ragnar Anchorage was likely primarily the weapons themselves, and not a supply of launchers or similar hardware. Since Galactica was slated for retirement and Pegasus was fully operational it is very likely the later ship was much better equipped with combat military hardware.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 22:30, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== About Gaeta ==
Looking at the question here:

: Why is Gaeta so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D'Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?

Er, well, the last time Gaeta saw Baltar, he gave him a gun and told him his last chance at redemption was to stop Three from setting off the nuke. Given that the nuke didn't go off, it isn't unreasonable to believe Baltar was successful, and that in succeeding he would have either died or been stranded on New Caprica. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 02:50, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:Gaeta knew that he was chummy with the Cylons. For him to convince them not to detonate the nuke (not hard, given that it would be at best a symbolic gesture) and still make it off the planet alive is well within the realm of possibility. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==A quick battle==

I was just wondering but is the skirmish with Galactica and the Basestars going to be added into the Second Cylon War or not? Sure it was short but it still had combat and casualties so it should be added to the list. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:54, 13 November 2006 (CST)
: Sure, I don't see why not. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:10, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==Baltar's Torture==

This is just pure speculation for speculation's sake, but I can't help thinking something more than Three being "touched" by Baltar's insane screaming of "don't stop..." "I believe in you" and "I love you with all my heart" (with internal Six's coaching) is going on in this scene. Three's indiference at the onset of her torturing, and her musing over which torture tool she should use doesnt seem like it could be changed or swayed by anything Baltar would say. i would say that judging from the torture tools they have, and their experiences on New Caprica at extracting information on detainees they know a little about torturing, it doesn't seem that Baltar saying anything he could to stop the torture would be unexpected. This leads me to wonder about exactly what he did say with the help of internal Six. perhaps those phrases, or the way he said it struck something in Three that only Cylons are aware of...maybe it means something that neither the Viewer or Baltar is aware of...I just find it hard to believe that Three, fully prepared for torture, even having fun picking what instrument to use...could be so easily moved from some snivelling bleating human saying he loves her with all his heart...Did Six give Baltar these phrases to say because she knew they'd strike a cord in a fellow Cylon, Three's reaction was quite a reaction, and then touching his lips like she couldn't believe those words came out of his mouth.....I don't know...just speculating.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:23, 14 November 2006 (CST)

--I wonder if the incongruity of those phrases to the situation of being tortured made Three wonder if Baltar was projecting. Now, if they've tortured other humans, they've probably seen people break with reality and shut down before, but perhaps that's a reaction beyond anything they've ever seen before. More like a Cylon being tortured? Is that what their instinct is, if they're in the same situation as Baltar? --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

==Note about the virus is incorrect==

The note:

Dr. Cottle identifies the disease as Lymphocytic encephalitis, however encephalitis is a condition (swelling of the brain) that can be caused by a pathogen, not a pathogen itself. More likely the pathogen is Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus.

When a doctor identifies a disease, he normally states the name of the disease, not the name of the virus. The note itself states that Doc Cottle identifies the "disease," not the pathogen. I think the note needs to be modified or deleted. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 20:58, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== Accessing the "Hybrid?" ==

Is that what Athena is doing? Do we know that? It just sounds odd when phrased that way. [[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 02:56, 14 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:A Measure of Salvation/Archive 1

2006-11-14T18:24:15Z

Gallion: /* Baltar's Torture */

==Picture?==
Is that picture from A Measure of Salvation? I don't remember Three and Six projecting themselves into a forest. The outfits they are wearing look like what they wore while torturing Baltar, so maybe it's from a deleted scene. Unless I've forgotten the scene for some reason, shouldn't we get a picture that actually came from the episode? -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Some Poor Writing ==

Attention to detail is what has set BSG apart from so many other science-fiction shows - including Mr. Moore's Star Trek franchises. So I was very disappointed last night to see the sloppy errors piling up deep. I'd have to see the epsiode again to list them all, but mainly them problems concerned the virus.

The scene where potentially infected Galactica crew are "quarantined", together with Sharon, in a room with cold-storage plastic flaps was ridiculous.

It's preposterous to think that a cylon would casually betray his race for the anti-viral drug. He has no assurance that he won't be double-crossed, and he certainly - even after torture - wouldn't spell out the danger the virus poses to the cylon fleet. The audience isn't stupid and neither should the Galctica crew be. Seeing Lee with a dim little lightbulb over his head was just insulting to us all.

Past episodes have cleary shown that cylon ressurection occurs over significant distances, (greater than FTL jumps), and that calls into question the fundemental logistics of Adama's infection plan.

There would be no reason to jump Galactica itself, just sending one raptor with a cylon transponder and one infected cylon would have done the trick. (Nevermind the ease with which two cylon raiders almost instantly materialize into a whole cylon fleet with a resurrectionship conveniently in tow.)

The analysis on the episode summary page provides an excellent plot device allowing the raid to "succeed" thus justifying the major build-up of the two part story. In fact, it would have made a superb three part arc.

Hypothetical episode 3: Spend some realistic period of time finding a reasonably sized cylon fleet, infect them, virus begins spreading throughout area covered by the "local" resurrection ship. Cylons scramble to head off disease, Baltar gains points by developing Hera vaccine, cylons survive but with major "body-blow" giving Galactica and fleet some breathing room as they prepare to investigate the new lead to Earth.

Please don't get me wrong, I love this show, but sci-fi writing has always been done on the cheap and it make my eyes roll as I struggle to care about characters forced through non-sensical plot contortions. Please, Mr. Moore, DON'T LET BSG SINK TO THE SAME SAD FATE! I'm trusting that this was just a hiccup not a trend.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 13:08, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:In defense of the writers, I think you are wrong on two points:
:*Jumping Galactica makes sense. In [[Scar]] Cylon Raiders are engaging in skirmishes despite the absence of a resurrection ship. A Raptor is not a big enough threat to guarantee the presence of a resurrection ship. If one isn't in range by accident the Cylons would probably engage the Raptor without it and take a minor risk of permanently loosing a few raiders. And after [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]] the Cylons could be exspected to take a closer look to any unexpected Raptors with a Cylon transponder showing up. If they destroy it without a resurrection ship in range, the plans failed. Also Racetrack stated last episode that there is a shortage of Raptors in the fleet, noone is going to be eager to sacrifice one. Jumping Galactica ensures the Cylon require lots of forces, expect lot's of casualties and have a resurrection ship nearby, though I could have done without seeing it arrive on the battlefield, that's bad and inconsistent strategy, just to make sure the audience knows that it is in range.

:*There is probably a greater timespan between arrival of the patrol and that of the strikeforce then shown onscreen. Helo manipulates the oxygen-system after the jump, nevertheless the prisoners are already dead by the time the resurrection ship appears, indicating a least a few minutes have passed. The process can be seen in [[Flight of the Phoenix]] in the firing range scene (it's likely that Helo manipulated the same system).

:Two more plotholes I noticed: How do the Colonials know the Cylon supply lines? And given that they know Athena is immune because she's given birth to a hybrid child, they should wonder if there a more human-cylon hybrids. Even without knowing that Hera is still alive, if the massive Cylon effort to create hybrids resulted in creating at least one more hybrid the cylons would take a blow, but would not be exstinct. By the way it would be nice if we would hear something about these efforts. When Hera is shown for the first time in Cylon hands would be a good opportunity to close that chapter with a throwaway line that all these efforts were fruitless and stopped. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 11:24, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: That's an interesting question -- one that I had myself, actually. Even if the effort didn't destroy the Cylon race (and I think that goal is overly optimistic), the virus would have given a serious blow to the Cylons, which would only serve to give the survivors more breathing room -- not to metion the increase in general morale, which the survivors seriously need after the farce at New Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

I would have to agree the writing is poor. The series seems to be drifting from its roots and moving into the Hollywood PC political statement world. This season has already thrown in suicide bombing and implied it was acceptable, now there is a drift into making political statements about biological weapons (even though nuclear weapons have been freely used in the past.) It seems the writers are abandoning their science fiction roots and reaching to make their own personal social or political commentary. I do hope they get back to what I considered truly exceptional science fiction and stop these editorials.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 00:06, 12 November 2006 (CST)

Followup: According to and article on the Gateworld site ([http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/10/season_three_ratings_slip_from_premiere.shtml]) the ratings have been slipping. As much as I truly love this show, I know my wife and I were both rather disgusted with the previous inclusion of the suicide bombers and now the “loss of humanity” references associated with the potential use of biological weapons. I have also heard complaints from two of our friends. I’m concerned that if this direction is continued it will not only ruin the show, it will also drive away viewers resulting in cancelation. As a long time science fiction fan (I even remember watching the original showings of Lost in Space and the first Star Trek) this has been my all time favorite show up until now. I would hate to see it have an early demise. As I mentioned above, I hope the writers can return to science fiction and entertainment.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 16:13, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: Ratings have been slipping for ''SG-1'' and ''Atlantis'' as well; neither have the strong allegories to today's world, or the world of yesteryear for that matter. So I don't fully buy that there's a direct correlation between the creative direction BSG is going and the loss in viewership. Actually, one could probably argue (more successfully in my informed opinion) that the loss of ratings has more to do with Sci-Fi's scheduling decisions of breaking up the "Three Amigos" (''Stargate SG-1'', ''Stargate Atlantis'' and ''Battlestar Galactica''). As for the "loss of humanity" and suicide bombing themes, these have existed since the miniseries (Number Five's suicide bombing attempt in "[[Litmus]]" and Adama's speech in the miniseries and platitudes since then). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::: In my very informed opinion, I would have to disagree on several points. While time slots and lineup can affect ratings, this usually is reflected in those of the shows with the weaker individual draw. Galactica is a cornerstone show which should draw up the ratings for those around it rather than have such a slump from a lineup change.

::: As for the previous Friday lineup, SG-1 ratings have steadily declined since the departure of Richard Dean Anderson. His departure also seemed to coincide with decline in the quality of the writing, though I’m not convinced the two were related rather than just coincidental. I have always believed the SG Atlantis was the weak link in that lineup and was carried by its position between SG-1 and BSG. As mentioned in the article I referenced above, Dr. Who, which leads into BSG, has had poor ratings this season. I believe the replacement of the very likable actor playing the title role, though consistent with the original BBC series, was a detriment to this series. In addition, this season’s writing has seemed less creative and entertaining. I greatly enjoyed their first season, but have found the current one to be rather dull and uninteresting. This certainly doesn’t help with the Galactica ratings, but I don’t believe it is the major factor in the decline.

::: The introduction of controversial topics into plot lines is often risky, particularly with science fiction which is typically considered pure escapism, even when it has a dark element like BSG (i.e.: The potential extermination of the human race and the continued threat from the Cylon.) Generally, Sci-Fi fans want to escape the real world and be entertained, not lectured on the writers’ political or social views of modern events. While any controversial topic is a risk, the introduction of those that are currently so polarizing is almost a guarantee of distancing a significant portion of your fan base.

::: You associated the bombing executed by a Cylon against those carried out by human suicide bombers. The two aren’t even remotely comparable. The first was not executed by a human, was not condoned by the humans, and was executed by an individual who (as already had been established) would be reborn (“downloaded”) into a new body, but as the same individual. The later was not only condoned by members of the upper human leadership, it was presented as a reasonable and acceptable approach in a given situation – a strong statement considering current world events. (As someone who’s nephew’s squad was attacked by the first suicide bomber in the gulf war, killing many of his squad just a few yards in front of him, I will freely admit to strong personal feelings in this matter. None the less, such controversial plot elements are invariably going to strongly offend a significant number of viewers.) The inference that the humans must limit their use of weapons against an enemy bent on the genocide of humanity is another PC component. Biological weapons as a plot element would have been better completely left out rather than used as a mechanism for additional political commentary. Remember, people watch for entertainment, not a reminder of current events or a thinly disguised lecture from Hollywood writers on their political and social opinions.

::: It is also rather telling that the ratings dropped rather significantly after the season 3 premiere (where suicide bombings by humans were introduced and condoned.) I’ll be interested in seeing how the ratings are affected after this latest one sided (read: “PC”) foray into contemporary controversial issues.

::: --[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 20:40, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::::I doubt that the suicide bombings in Occupation and Precipice were "condoned" by the show. Roslin didn't like them. Tigh, who planned them, thought they were bad. Even Baltar (who's been developing a conscience this season, thank the Gods) didn't like them. The first was a waste of life and counterproductive, causing a massive Cylon freakout that would have killed off Roslin, Zarek, Cally and a bunch of other people if the resistance hadn't saved them in the last minute. The second took down the power grid, which was more helpful, but it should be noted that in this case the bomber didn't kill any civilians, just herself and some Cylons. Tigh is still suffering because of the choices he made on New Caprica, and it doesn't look like he's coming out of those moral woods anytime soon.

::::Furthermore, I don't think the show has condemned the use of the Cylon virus, either. Roslin was all about it, after all, and I don't think there's anything less PC than a schoolteacher with a Messiah complex jonesing for some genocide. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 22:33, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:::: The use of nuclear weapons are logical in a space setting where great distances are involved and ships are heavily armoured. I would suspect, though, that a Presidential order would have been required to use nukes on the surface of a populated planet. The use of bio-weapons would probably have similiar restrictions because of their nature. I disagree that this show was PC. The weapon that the humans stumbled upon had a unique ability to wipe out the entire race of cyclons. To use it does carry far more ethical problems than simply using a nuke on a basestar. To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 09:39, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:::I think the show has been attacking issues that are important in our modern world since the beginning. Basic issues like balance of power, whether civilian government should stay in power during a massive crisis and war, religion in general, how to treat thouse different from yourselves (the show has been very ambivalent about killing Cylons, even though they are "just robots"), Baltar's initial refusal to believe in the gods or a god. It has even tackled thitngs like terrorism as a means to an end (Zarek was introduced at the beginning of the first season), abortion, infanticide, torture, treatment of prisoners. In all, it has been very current and politically involved since the beginning. However, with the first 4 episodes of season 3, it took a decidedly controversial and risky turn by depicting our favorite valiant and noble heros under brutal occupation. The writers have guts, and their ratings may have suffered, but they are doing the same thing they've been doing since the beginning of the show. It's just now a lot of poeple who watch TV don't agree with the particular direction the show took. However, even then, it left the viewer to choose for him or herself what to think, it was again ambivalent, which may be what makes it the best show on TV. No, the show will not supply you with easy answers and moral certitude to very important current questions. But that's a good thing, not a bad thing. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 15:49, 13 November 2006 (EST)

::::I have to agree that it's been dealing with controversial issues from the start. One thing I've learned about BsG from watching it is that every time you think there's a line they won't cross, they seem to cross it. I think Yaneh has it right. Now, with them back in space, I do think it might turn more towards classic sci-fi, but I do agree this is not an unprecedented pattern. As for the writing on this particular episode, I think there were some odd references or slip-ups, which to my mind were made for the sole purpose of bailing Galactica out of the responsibility for a genocide. But I'm not going to judge the whole show at this point--it's WAY too early for that. I'm even more of a music buff than a TV buff, and I don't write off a band until there are 3 stinkers in a row. Let's wait and see if this a pattern before we write BsG off. --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

== Explanations ==

A note about the Resurection ship jumping into the battle... it would seem that this is actually a good tactical move from the Cylon perspective. After Pegasus and Galactica easily destroyed the first resurrection ship and it's escorts, it would be prudent for the Cylons to keep the new ship with their fleet... even if this means taking it into battle with them. From their point of view it might look as if Galactica was trying to sucker the baseships away from the resurrection ship so the colonials could attack it. They've already used the "sucker" strategy a number of times, we could just be seeing a Cylon reaction to that strategy. Bringing the ship with them would negate such a threat as several basestars (more than enough to hold galactica off) would be able to cover for it.

As far as supply lines, it would figure that Galactica would know about this. Basic military strategy is to harass or at least keep an eye on enemy supply lines.

Also a note about the raptors and their missiles. The colonials may have found, after the battle over new caprica, that the missile attachments for the raptors were effective and could be adapted for other (combat) uses as well. It would also figure that after the loss of Pegasus, the colonials would be trying everything they could to increase firepower. This is probably just a jury-rig solution for increasing galactica's firepower.

: And all this has yet to be supported on screen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:45, 13 November 2006 (CST)

::In [[The Captain's Hand]] Admiral Adama orders a recon of 5 Raptors, 2 of them SAR and 3 Escort. Though never seen onscreen heavily armed Raptors must have been around for some time. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:57, 13 November 2006 (CST)

: It is also distinctly possible that the weapon pods were not available until the arrival of the Pegasus. The cache at Ragnar Anchorage was likely primarily the weapons themselves, and not a supply of launchers or similar hardware. Since Galactica was slated for retirement and Pegasus was fully operational it is very likely the later ship was much better equipped with combat military hardware.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 22:30, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== About Gaeta ==
Looking at the question here:

: Why is Gaeta so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D'Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?

Er, well, the last time Gaeta saw Baltar, he gave him a gun and told him his last chance at redemption was to stop Three from setting off the nuke. Given that the nuke didn't go off, it isn't unreasonable to believe Baltar was successful, and that in succeeding he would have either died or been stranded on New Caprica. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 02:50, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:Gaeta knew that he was chummy with the Cylons. For him to convince them not to detonate the nuke (not hard, given that it would be at best a symbolic gesture) and still make it off the planet alive is well within the realm of possibility. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==A quick battle==

I was just wondering but is the skirmish with Galactica and the Basestars going to be added into the Second Cylon War or not? Sure it was short but it still had combat and casualties so it should be added to the list. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:54, 13 November 2006 (CST)
: Sure, I don't see why not. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:10, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==Baltar's Torture==

This is just pure speculation for speculation's sake, but I can't help thinking something more than Three being "touched" by Baltar's insane screaming of "don't stop..." "I believe in you" and "I love you with all my heart" (with internal Six's coaching) is going on in this scene. Three's indiference at the onset of her torturing, and her musing over which torture tool she should use doesnt seem like it could be changed or swayed by anything Baltar would say. i would say that judging from the torture tools they have, and their experiences on New Caprica at extracting information on detainees they know a little about torturing, it doesn't seem that Baltar saying anything he could to stop the torture would be unexpected. This leads me to wonder about exactly what he did say with the help of internal Six. perhaps those phrases, or the way he said it struck something in Three that only Cylons are aware of...maybe it means something that neither the Viewer or Baltar is aware of...I just find it hard to believe that Three, fully prepared for torture, even having fun picking what instrument to use...could be so easily moved from some snivelling bleating human saying he loves her with all his heart...Did Six give Baltar these phrases to say because she knew they'd strike a cord in a fellow Cylon, Three's reaciton was quite a reaction, and then touching his lips like she couldn't believe those words came out of his mouth.....I don't know...just speculating.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:23, 14 November 2006 (CST)

==Note about the virus is incorrect==

The note:

Dr. Cottle identifies the disease as Lymphocytic encephalitis, however encephalitis is a condition (swelling of the brain) that can be caused by a pathogen, not a pathogen itself. More likely the pathogen is Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus.

When a doctor identifies a disease, he normally states the name of the disease, not the name of the virus. The note itself states that Doc Cottle identifies the "disease," not the pathogen. I think the note needs to be modified or deleted. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 20:58, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== Accessing the "Hybrid?" ==

Is that what Athena is doing? Do we know that? It just sounds odd when phrased that way. [[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 02:56, 14 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:A Measure of Salvation/Archive 1

2006-11-14T18:23:24Z

Gallion:

==Picture?==
Is that picture from A Measure of Salvation? I don't remember Three and Six projecting themselves into a forest. The outfits they are wearing look like what they wore while torturing Baltar, so maybe it's from a deleted scene. Unless I've forgotten the scene for some reason, shouldn't we get a picture that actually came from the episode? -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Some Poor Writing ==

Attention to detail is what has set BSG apart from so many other science-fiction shows - including Mr. Moore's Star Trek franchises. So I was very disappointed last night to see the sloppy errors piling up deep. I'd have to see the epsiode again to list them all, but mainly them problems concerned the virus.

The scene where potentially infected Galactica crew are "quarantined", together with Sharon, in a room with cold-storage plastic flaps was ridiculous.

It's preposterous to think that a cylon would casually betray his race for the anti-viral drug. He has no assurance that he won't be double-crossed, and he certainly - even after torture - wouldn't spell out the danger the virus poses to the cylon fleet. The audience isn't stupid and neither should the Galctica crew be. Seeing Lee with a dim little lightbulb over his head was just insulting to us all.

Past episodes have cleary shown that cylon ressurection occurs over significant distances, (greater than FTL jumps), and that calls into question the fundemental logistics of Adama's infection plan.

There would be no reason to jump Galactica itself, just sending one raptor with a cylon transponder and one infected cylon would have done the trick. (Nevermind the ease with which two cylon raiders almost instantly materialize into a whole cylon fleet with a resurrectionship conveniently in tow.)

The analysis on the episode summary page provides an excellent plot device allowing the raid to "succeed" thus justifying the major build-up of the two part story. In fact, it would have made a superb three part arc.

Hypothetical episode 3: Spend some realistic period of time finding a reasonably sized cylon fleet, infect them, virus begins spreading throughout area covered by the "local" resurrection ship. Cylons scramble to head off disease, Baltar gains points by developing Hera vaccine, cylons survive but with major "body-blow" giving Galactica and fleet some breathing room as they prepare to investigate the new lead to Earth.

Please don't get me wrong, I love this show, but sci-fi writing has always been done on the cheap and it make my eyes roll as I struggle to care about characters forced through non-sensical plot contortions. Please, Mr. Moore, DON'T LET BSG SINK TO THE SAME SAD FATE! I'm trusting that this was just a hiccup not a trend.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 13:08, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:In defense of the writers, I think you are wrong on two points:
:*Jumping Galactica makes sense. In [[Scar]] Cylon Raiders are engaging in skirmishes despite the absence of a resurrection ship. A Raptor is not a big enough threat to guarantee the presence of a resurrection ship. If one isn't in range by accident the Cylons would probably engage the Raptor without it and take a minor risk of permanently loosing a few raiders. And after [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]] the Cylons could be exspected to take a closer look to any unexpected Raptors with a Cylon transponder showing up. If they destroy it without a resurrection ship in range, the plans failed. Also Racetrack stated last episode that there is a shortage of Raptors in the fleet, noone is going to be eager to sacrifice one. Jumping Galactica ensures the Cylon require lots of forces, expect lot's of casualties and have a resurrection ship nearby, though I could have done without seeing it arrive on the battlefield, that's bad and inconsistent strategy, just to make sure the audience knows that it is in range.

:*There is probably a greater timespan between arrival of the patrol and that of the strikeforce then shown onscreen. Helo manipulates the oxygen-system after the jump, nevertheless the prisoners are already dead by the time the resurrection ship appears, indicating a least a few minutes have passed. The process can be seen in [[Flight of the Phoenix]] in the firing range scene (it's likely that Helo manipulated the same system).

:Two more plotholes I noticed: How do the Colonials know the Cylon supply lines? And given that they know Athena is immune because she's given birth to a hybrid child, they should wonder if there a more human-cylon hybrids. Even without knowing that Hera is still alive, if the massive Cylon effort to create hybrids resulted in creating at least one more hybrid the cylons would take a blow, but would not be exstinct. By the way it would be nice if we would hear something about these efforts. When Hera is shown for the first time in Cylon hands would be a good opportunity to close that chapter with a throwaway line that all these efforts were fruitless and stopped. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 11:24, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: That's an interesting question -- one that I had myself, actually. Even if the effort didn't destroy the Cylon race (and I think that goal is overly optimistic), the virus would have given a serious blow to the Cylons, which would only serve to give the survivors more breathing room -- not to metion the increase in general morale, which the survivors seriously need after the farce at New Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

I would have to agree the writing is poor. The series seems to be drifting from its roots and moving into the Hollywood PC political statement world. This season has already thrown in suicide bombing and implied it was acceptable, now there is a drift into making political statements about biological weapons (even though nuclear weapons have been freely used in the past.) It seems the writers are abandoning their science fiction roots and reaching to make their own personal social or political commentary. I do hope they get back to what I considered truly exceptional science fiction and stop these editorials.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 00:06, 12 November 2006 (CST)

Followup: According to and article on the Gateworld site ([http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/10/season_three_ratings_slip_from_premiere.shtml]) the ratings have been slipping. As much as I truly love this show, I know my wife and I were both rather disgusted with the previous inclusion of the suicide bombers and now the “loss of humanity” references associated with the potential use of biological weapons. I have also heard complaints from two of our friends. I’m concerned that if this direction is continued it will not only ruin the show, it will also drive away viewers resulting in cancelation. As a long time science fiction fan (I even remember watching the original showings of Lost in Space and the first Star Trek) this has been my all time favorite show up until now. I would hate to see it have an early demise. As I mentioned above, I hope the writers can return to science fiction and entertainment.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 16:13, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: Ratings have been slipping for ''SG-1'' and ''Atlantis'' as well; neither have the strong allegories to today's world, or the world of yesteryear for that matter. So I don't fully buy that there's a direct correlation between the creative direction BSG is going and the loss in viewership. Actually, one could probably argue (more successfully in my informed opinion) that the loss of ratings has more to do with Sci-Fi's scheduling decisions of breaking up the "Three Amigos" (''Stargate SG-1'', ''Stargate Atlantis'' and ''Battlestar Galactica''). As for the "loss of humanity" and suicide bombing themes, these have existed since the miniseries (Number Five's suicide bombing attempt in "[[Litmus]]" and Adama's speech in the miniseries and platitudes since then). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::: In my very informed opinion, I would have to disagree on several points. While time slots and lineup can affect ratings, this usually is reflected in those of the shows with the weaker individual draw. Galactica is a cornerstone show which should draw up the ratings for those around it rather than have such a slump from a lineup change.

::: As for the previous Friday lineup, SG-1 ratings have steadily declined since the departure of Richard Dean Anderson. His departure also seemed to coincide with decline in the quality of the writing, though I’m not convinced the two were related rather than just coincidental. I have always believed the SG Atlantis was the weak link in that lineup and was carried by its position between SG-1 and BSG. As mentioned in the article I referenced above, Dr. Who, which leads into BSG, has had poor ratings this season. I believe the replacement of the very likable actor playing the title role, though consistent with the original BBC series, was a detriment to this series. In addition, this season’s writing has seemed less creative and entertaining. I greatly enjoyed their first season, but have found the current one to be rather dull and uninteresting. This certainly doesn’t help with the Galactica ratings, but I don’t believe it is the major factor in the decline.

::: The introduction of controversial topics into plot lines is often risky, particularly with science fiction which is typically considered pure escapism, even when it has a dark element like BSG (i.e.: The potential extermination of the human race and the continued threat from the Cylon.) Generally, Sci-Fi fans want to escape the real world and be entertained, not lectured on the writers’ political or social views of modern events. While any controversial topic is a risk, the introduction of those that are currently so polarizing is almost a guarantee of distancing a significant portion of your fan base.

::: You associated the bombing executed by a Cylon against those carried out by human suicide bombers. The two aren’t even remotely comparable. The first was not executed by a human, was not condoned by the humans, and was executed by an individual who (as already had been established) would be reborn (“downloaded”) into a new body, but as the same individual. The later was not only condoned by members of the upper human leadership, it was presented as a reasonable and acceptable approach in a given situation – a strong statement considering current world events. (As someone who’s nephew’s squad was attacked by the first suicide bomber in the gulf war, killing many of his squad just a few yards in front of him, I will freely admit to strong personal feelings in this matter. None the less, such controversial plot elements are invariably going to strongly offend a significant number of viewers.) The inference that the humans must limit their use of weapons against an enemy bent on the genocide of humanity is another PC component. Biological weapons as a plot element would have been better completely left out rather than used as a mechanism for additional political commentary. Remember, people watch for entertainment, not a reminder of current events or a thinly disguised lecture from Hollywood writers on their political and social opinions.

::: It is also rather telling that the ratings dropped rather significantly after the season 3 premiere (where suicide bombings by humans were introduced and condoned.) I’ll be interested in seeing how the ratings are affected after this latest one sided (read: “PC”) foray into contemporary controversial issues.

::: --[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 20:40, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::::I doubt that the suicide bombings in Occupation and Precipice were "condoned" by the show. Roslin didn't like them. Tigh, who planned them, thought they were bad. Even Baltar (who's been developing a conscience this season, thank the Gods) didn't like them. The first was a waste of life and counterproductive, causing a massive Cylon freakout that would have killed off Roslin, Zarek, Cally and a bunch of other people if the resistance hadn't saved them in the last minute. The second took down the power grid, which was more helpful, but it should be noted that in this case the bomber didn't kill any civilians, just herself and some Cylons. Tigh is still suffering because of the choices he made on New Caprica, and it doesn't look like he's coming out of those moral woods anytime soon.

::::Furthermore, I don't think the show has condemned the use of the Cylon virus, either. Roslin was all about it, after all, and I don't think there's anything less PC than a schoolteacher with a Messiah complex jonesing for some genocide. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 22:33, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:::: The use of nuclear weapons are logical in a space setting where great distances are involved and ships are heavily armoured. I would suspect, though, that a Presidential order would have been required to use nukes on the surface of a populated planet. The use of bio-weapons would probably have similiar restrictions because of their nature. I disagree that this show was PC. The weapon that the humans stumbled upon had a unique ability to wipe out the entire race of cyclons. To use it does carry far more ethical problems than simply using a nuke on a basestar. To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 09:39, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:::I think the show has been attacking issues that are important in our modern world since the beginning. Basic issues like balance of power, whether civilian government should stay in power during a massive crisis and war, religion in general, how to treat thouse different from yourselves (the show has been very ambivalent about killing Cylons, even though they are "just robots"), Baltar's initial refusal to believe in the gods or a god. It has even tackled thitngs like terrorism as a means to an end (Zarek was introduced at the beginning of the first season), abortion, infanticide, torture, treatment of prisoners. In all, it has been very current and politically involved since the beginning. However, with the first 4 episodes of season 3, it took a decidedly controversial and risky turn by depicting our favorite valiant and noble heros under brutal occupation. The writers have guts, and their ratings may have suffered, but they are doing the same thing they've been doing since the beginning of the show. It's just now a lot of poeple who watch TV don't agree with the particular direction the show took. However, even then, it left the viewer to choose for him or herself what to think, it was again ambivalent, which may be what makes it the best show on TV. No, the show will not supply you with easy answers and moral certitude to very important current questions. But that's a good thing, not a bad thing. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 15:49, 13 November 2006 (EST)

== Explanations ==

A note about the Resurection ship jumping into the battle... it would seem that this is actually a good tactical move from the Cylon perspective. After Pegasus and Galactica easily destroyed the first resurrection ship and it's escorts, it would be prudent for the Cylons to keep the new ship with their fleet... even if this means taking it into battle with them. From their point of view it might look as if Galactica was trying to sucker the baseships away from the resurrection ship so the colonials could attack it. They've already used the "sucker" strategy a number of times, we could just be seeing a Cylon reaction to that strategy. Bringing the ship with them would negate such a threat as several basestars (more than enough to hold galactica off) would be able to cover for it.

As far as supply lines, it would figure that Galactica would know about this. Basic military strategy is to harass or at least keep an eye on enemy supply lines.

Also a note about the raptors and their missiles. The colonials may have found, after the battle over new caprica, that the missile attachments for the raptors were effective and could be adapted for other (combat) uses as well. It would also figure that after the loss of Pegasus, the colonials would be trying everything they could to increase firepower. This is probably just a jury-rig solution for increasing galactica's firepower.

: And all this has yet to be supported on screen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:45, 13 November 2006 (CST)

::In [[The Captain's Hand]] Admiral Adama orders a recon of 5 Raptors, 2 of them SAR and 3 Escort. Though never seen onscreen heavily armed Raptors must have been around for some time. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:57, 13 November 2006 (CST)

: It is also distinctly possible that the weapon pods were not available until the arrival of the Pegasus. The cache at Ragnar Anchorage was likely primarily the weapons themselves, and not a supply of launchers or similar hardware. Since Galactica was slated for retirement and Pegasus was fully operational it is very likely the later ship was much better equipped with combat military hardware.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 22:30, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== About Gaeta ==
Looking at the question here:

: Why is Gaeta so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D'Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?

Er, well, the last time Gaeta saw Baltar, he gave him a gun and told him his last chance at redemption was to stop Three from setting off the nuke. Given that the nuke didn't go off, it isn't unreasonable to believe Baltar was successful, and that in succeeding he would have either died or been stranded on New Caprica. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 02:50, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:Gaeta knew that he was chummy with the Cylons. For him to convince them not to detonate the nuke (not hard, given that it would be at best a symbolic gesture) and still make it off the planet alive is well within the realm of possibility. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==A quick battle==

I was just wondering but is the skirmish with Galactica and the Basestars going to be added into the Second Cylon War or not? Sure it was short but it still had combat and casualties so it should be added to the list. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:54, 13 November 2006 (CST)
: Sure, I don't see why not. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:10, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==Baltar's Torture==

This is just pure speculation for speculation's sake, but I can't help thinking something more than Three being "touched" by Baltar's insane screaming of "don't stop..." "I believe in you" and "I love you with all my heart" (with internal Six's coashing) is going on in this scene. Three's indiference at the onset of her torturing, and her musing over which torture tool she should use doesnt seem like it could be changed or swayed by anything Baltar would say. i would say that judging from the torture tools they have, and their experiences on New Caprica at extracting information on detainees they know a little about torturing, it doesn't seem that Baltar saying anything he could to stop the torture would be unexpected. This leads me to wonder about exactly what he did say with the help of internal Six. perhaps those phrases, or the way he said it struck something in Three that only Cylons are aware of...maybe it means something that neither the Viewer or Baltar is aware of...I just find it hard to believe that Three, fully prepared for torture, even having fun picking what instrument to use...could be so easily moved from some snivelling bleating human saying he loves her with all his heart...Did Six give Baltar these phrases to say because she knew they'd strike a cord in a fellow Cylon, Three's reaciton was quite a reaction, and then touching his lips like she couldn't believe those words came out of his mouth.....I don't know...just speculating.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:23, 14 November 2006 (CST)

==Note about the virus is incorrect==

The note:

Dr. Cottle identifies the disease as Lymphocytic encephalitis, however encephalitis is a condition (swelling of the brain) that can be caused by a pathogen, not a pathogen itself. More likely the pathogen is Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus.

When a doctor identifies a disease, he normally states the name of the disease, not the name of the virus. The note itself states that Doc Cottle identifies the "disease," not the pathogen. I think the note needs to be modified or deleted. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 20:58, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== Accessing the "Hybrid?" ==

Is that what Athena is doing? Do we know that? It just sounds odd when phrased that way. [[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 02:56, 14 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Exodus, Part II/Archive 1

2006-10-22T15:18:43Z

Gallion: /* Is this a clue? */

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0610/01/index.htm
Click on this link and scroll down to see scenes from the Exodus episodes. My favorite is the last one at the bottom which shows Zarek and Roslin plsticuffed together. Hopefully they'll start to get along soon. --ltcrashdown October 3rd, 2006

== My Prediction ==

And it shouldn't be a big surprise, but I have to state it for the record:

Battlestar ''Pegasus'' makes its last appearance today. I think it will be used to ram a basestar or two to save ''Galactica'', which puts up a good fight but is getting outmatched.
My prediction doesn't come from anything but from the gut, but it should be interesting if it comes true. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:53, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:I'm hoping that it doesnt get destroyed, seeing as that would kill Lee Adama and far too many other people - if this happened, people would switch off. I'm predicting that it'll save the day at the last second. If you think about it, Lee Adama was ordered to stay behind with the fleet and continue the search for earth. I'm betting that he does the usual thing of going against orders, jumping back anyway at the last second and launches a nuke or two at a basestar.

--[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 17:37, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

Since when does people's opinions become spoiler text? :P --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:05, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

:Spoiler policy is suspended on talk, but sometimes people get bummed to read them here, so it's a courtesy. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:58, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

YES! Nailed it! Nailed it! Hail to the king, baby! --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:47, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

: Hallowed are the Ori... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 00:06, 21 October 2006 (CDT)

:Wow, Spence. Calling the second one was impressive. --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 09:55, 21 October 2006 (CDT)

== Is this a clue? ==

When Starbuck gets back to Galactica with the kid, and the supposed mother sees it, and latches on, she says either "Gods bless you" or "GOD bless you", and after watching it about 5 times on my TiVo, I'm leaning towards GOD, singular, and perhaps a clue that this lady is not who she claims. I mean, if that really is a hybrid, then it would be valuable enough to pull such a move just to get it out of Colonial hands.

Also, if it weren't for horrible interior design, I'd rather Galactica had been boned, and they all just moved into Pegasus and renamed it Galactia-A or something. If it weren't for the lame bridge, it'd be a much better ship.

: The assumption is reasonable -- however, I believe it is extremely likely that the woman is who she claims to be. Also, given the horrible success rate at Cylon farms, it is likely that Kacey was indeed a ruse to get Thrace to love Conoy. Once Conoy had Thrace's love, their love would lead to the next step. As for the "God" versus "Gods" thing.... also, it's been indicated that the Colonials have varying faiths, and some don't necessarily believe in the Sacred Scrolls, Pythia and all that jazz. Also, it wouldn't be ''Battlestar Galactica'' without ''Galactica''... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 00:01, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
::Not to mention that you have to give Tyrol ''something'' to do on the flightline. Why, if he were on the ''Pegasus'', unable to go spastic about not holding the Vipers together with bubblegum and baling wire, and just could wish another one up from the manufacturing plants aboard the newer ship, who knows how many kids he and Cally might end up with by the time they get to Earth? ^_^--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 01:05, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Tyrol now has a lot more Vipers and Raptors to look after. Poor Cally.....--[[User:Barry|Barry]] 07:44, 21 October 2006 (CDT)

:I thought your observation was interesting so I pulled up the episode again and watched that part. Kasey's new mother distinctly says "gods" with a hard, unmistakable "s". [[User:Silsor|Silsor]] 00:24, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:Plus, why would they introduce a new Cylon so casually? The recent Cylons (Biers, Simon, Cavil) each had complex introductions. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 01:17, 21 October 2006 (CDT)

::Totally said "gods"...first time I heard it...absolutly positive.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:18, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

== Screencaps Posted ==

[[:md:User:Shane/gallery|Here]]. Enjoy. I surely did. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 03:51, 21 October 2006 (CDT)

:You misspelt "atmosphere" in a couple of them --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:44, 21 October 2006 (CDT)

:I like your screengrabs! Holy cow -- what a great episode; especially the part where Galactica jumps in low and provides that "firing solution" for the team. There was even a cool easter egg -- Did anyone else notice the "Pan Am" logo on the bottom of one of the ships leaving New Caprica? --[[User:Scooper|Scooper]] 10:28, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
::"Easter egg?" Sounds like another case of the Craftsman tool lockers. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 11:54, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
::That's probably the [[Pan Galactic]] ship, its been in the fleet all the way back to the Miniseries. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 16:36, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
::The logo is indeed nearly the same, but the name seems to be different. It has more than 5 letters. Maybe "Pan Gal" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:05, 21 October 2006 (CDT)

== Where does this question go? ==

Earlier today, I posted a question in the Questions section about why the DRADIS displays on both battlestars were inexplicably clear of the nebula's interference, but it was deleted. Is there a more appropriate place for it? --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 21:00, 21 October 2006 (EDT)

:Hi, BR. That's a valid question. Before the Cylon fleet discovered New Caprica, Dualla was commenting how hard it was to see anything in the nebula, and they were in orbit. Now, in this episode, both sides appeared to be using DRADIS without issue from the interference. Me senses a [[Continuity errors (RDM)|continuity error]]. You can re-add the question here (note my winded explanation) or add to the continuities article. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:40, 21 October 2006 (CDT)

: A bit annoying to have a question posted and suddenly deleted. Might I suggest deleting other editor's questions and comments be expressly prohibited? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 02:47, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

::Reaching a concenus and corlaberation is the wiki's primary goal. Sometimes authros disagree, so usually once something is removed and someone things it should say, bring it up on the talk page is the proper course of action to dicuss the matter further. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 03:23, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

Precipice

2006-10-13T15:35:19Z

Gallion: /* Questions */

{{Episode Data
| title= Precipice
| image=Season 3 - Promo - Epi 1 - 2 - C-Number Eight, Adama, Helo.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 2
| guests=
| writer= [[Ronald D. Moore]]
| story=
| director= [[Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]]
| production= 302
| rating= 1.8
| US airdate= 2006-10-06
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population=
| prev= [[Occupation]]
| next= [[Exodus, Part I]]
| podcast= Y
}}

== Overview ==
:''After the suicide bombing, the [[Cylons (RDM) |Cylons]] institute stricter controls on the human population on [[New Caprica]]. Aboard ''[[Galactica]]'', plans for the rescue from New Caprica move forward now that communication with the [[New Caprica Resistance|resistance]] has been established.''

== Summary ==
*[[Gaius Baltar]] ostensibly has [[Laura Roslin]] detained in a cell. He discusses the suicide bombings, after which he releases her.
*After [[Duck]]'s suicide bombing in an effort to kill Baltar, the Cylons round up random civilians, including [[Cally Tyrol]].
*The [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben copy]] that has imprisoned [[Kara Thrace]] introduces her to [[Kacey]], supposedly [[Hera|another]] Cylon-human hybrid fertilized by this Cylon's consciousness and using Thrace's [[The Farm|egg from her stolen ovary]]. Thrace immediately treats it as an "it."
*[[Felix Gaeta]] continues to give information to the resistance, although [[Galen Tyrol]] is unaware that Gaeta is his source. Tyrol believes Gaeta is a collaborator.
*Tyrol talks to Jammer about the situation with [[Cally Tyrol|his wife]], believing that people such as himself and Jammer will be lauded, while people like Gaeta will be strung up, causing feelings of regret in Jammer for his secret Cylon collaboration as an [[NCP]] member.
*Jammer asks [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer]] to release Cally Tyrol from prison. Boomer claims bureaucracy prevents her, but later visits Tyrol. [[Resistance (episode)|Their history]] only makes matters worse.
*Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] swears in [[Sharon Agathon]] as a Colonial officer and sends her to New Caprica as the resistance liaison. Commander [[Lee Adama]] objects to most of the plan, and is generally ignored by the planning team.
*Later, Commander Adama tries to convince his father that risking what's left of mankind to save those on New Caprica wasn't a call the admiral could make. Admiral Adama tells his son that he can stay with the Fleet with ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' on guard, but that he and ''Galactica'' must try to rescue the New Capricans.
*[[Saul Tigh]], Chief Tyrol, and [[Samuel Anders]] decide to meet Agathon at [[Breeder's Canyon]].
*[[Ellen Tigh]], threatened with more harm to her husband, tips off the Cylons to the rendezvous.
*Another damaging suicide bombing moves the Cylons to more drastic actions.
*The Cylons force Baltar to sign an execution order for 200 civilians, including [[Cally Tyrol]], Roslin and [[Tom Zarek]]. The detainees are transported outside the city.
*Kara Thrace continues to ignore Kacey in the apartment. When Thrace leaves to another room, she returns to find the child motionless in a pool of blood.
*As Kacey awakens in a hospital, Thrace is overjoyed, and takes Conoy's hand.
*After the truck of detainees stops and releases the prisoners to "stretch their legs," a masked [[Jammer]] cuts Cally Tyrol's bonds and tells her to run. As as she gets away, [[Cylon Centurion]]s appear to execute the detainees.
*Zarek pulls Roslin away from the front of the crowd.
*As Cally Tyrol runs through the forest, the sound of automatic gunfire rings out.
*After Sharon Agathon and Anders' teams meet and formulate their plans, they are soon ambushed by Centurions.

== Questions ==

*If [[Sharon Agathon]] is killed during her mission on [[New Caprica]], will she be able to download into a new body?
**While download is likely, Agathon would be immediately kept as an intelligence source.
*Where will [[Cally Tyrol]] be able to run to? She was ordered to face execution by the Colonial Government.
**Returning to the colony is probable, keeping out of sight, probably in the underground bunker where the [[wireless]] comm center is located.
*Why did the Cylons abandon their plan for a public execution?
**A public execution might have made matters worse, while [[Wikipedia:Forced disappearance|"disappearances"]] would allow for both an effective threat and plausible deniability.
*If viewers are to assume that the gunfire at the end of the episode is not from the Centurions, then who is firing?
**There is the possibility, however remote, that it was the New Caprica Police who opened fire on the Centurions. However, story-wise that might be a cop-out, and it is unlikely that the NCP would take such action, Jammer's release of Cally not withstanding.
**Another possibility is that the gunfire we heard is somehow coming from Agathon's rescue team. However, the execution and ambush appear to be happening concurrently.
*Is Gaeta showing rather unusual behavior? If so, how much will his role as "inside man" be affected?
**Gaeta is witnessing the oppression of humanity at the highest level from a man he once admired. It is probable that Gaeta's stress level is [[Flight of the Phoenix|again affecting his behavior]].
*What is the role of the five unseen Cylon models in the occupation? Are they present and simply remaining off-camera for the benefit of the audience? Have they attempted to hide themselves from the Colonials?
**{{spoiltext|According to interviews with Grace Park, Dean Stockwell, and Tricia Helfer, the remaining Cylons are so secret that even the seven models known to the audience don't know who the last five are. See the Talk article for more information.}}
**{{spoiltext|According to an [http://www.aintitcool.com/node/30381 interview] with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett, the remaining five models have all been [[Boxing|boxed]].}}
*Why do no Leoben Conoy copies attend the meeting on ''Colonial One'' regarding the execution order?
**Conoy's motives on New Caprica appear to be entirely selfish—he is there for Kara Thrace only. No other copies have been witnessed on New Caprica to date.
*[[Cally Tyrol]] and [[Sharon Agathon]] both took their husbands' names upon marriage, as did [[Ellen Tigh]], [[Caroline Adama]] and [[Sesha Abinell]]. Are [[Anastasia Dualla]] and [[Kara Thrace]] now Anastasia Adama, and Kara Anders, respectively?
*What is the relationship between Caprica-Six's shooting and the reappearance of [[Cylon-Related_Hallucinations#Baltar.27s_Internal_Six|Baltar's Internal Six]]?
**It is possible that two events are not directly related. The reappearance was not immediate, but happened after [[Number Five]] and [[Cavil]] continued to threaten Baltar with death. Since Caprica-Six's support was gone, Baltar was under severe stress and thought that he might likely die. Internal-Six has shown a tendency to appear at those times, especially if Baltar's survival is at stake.
*On the topic of internal manifestations, what happened to Caprica-Six's Interal-Baltar? Will he ever show himself again? Has he dissapeared much like his counterpart in Baltar, now that the real-world Baltar is in Caprics-Six's midst?
*Now that the Lt. Sharon Agathon has landed on the surface of New Caprica, how can she be distinguished from other [[Number Eight]]s there?
**Other than her [[flight suit]], it remains unclear how [[Sharon Agathon]] will be distinguished from other [[Number Eight]]s. Admiral Adama confirmed that Cylon Centurions are not sentient, and may take instruction from Agathon because of her true nature.
*How will ''humans'' identify Sharon Agathon should she ever leave their sight? How, for example, can she safely return to ''[[Galactica]]''?
*How did Jammer identify the particular Eight he talked to as "Boomer?"
*If the Centurions are incapable of distinguishing between individual copies of a model, why would they fire on Sharon Agathon, who should be just another Eight to them?
**Agathon's back was turned to the Centurions at the time before the shooting began. They may not have registered her presence in the group. Also, her Colonial-issue flight suit may have given her away. No "legitimate" Eight on New Caprica would need to wear one.
* Why didn't Duck tell Tyrol that Jammer had joined the New Caprica Police?
**He may not have known until the graduation ceremony, since the members of the police force are secretive about their identities. Duck was also under great stress and may not have been thinking clearly.
*Did Kacey fall down the stairs or was she pushed?
*As Zarek wanted nothing to do with Baltar's puppet administration, who replaced him as Vice President?
**Given the potential for further dissidence and/or rebellion, did Baltar do away with the office of the Vice Presidency altogether?
*Given Zarek's imprisonment for four months, what of Zarek's various supporters? Do they still exist on New Caprica or on the ''[[Astral Queen]]''? If so, what of them?
*Is [[Kacey]] all that [[Leoben Conoy]] claims her to be?
**There is reason to believe that Conoy's claims are not true. As evidenced in the Miniseries and "[[Flesh and Bone]]," Conoy is a master manipulator specializing in lies, half-truths, misdirection, ommission and any other method he can think of to coerce people to do as he wants. Kacey could be an ordinary human. The farms were filled with male and female humans, so standard ''in vitro'' insemination is not improbable.
**The Cylon farms have had no success in procreation. Even if hybridization succeeded, it is unlikely that such a human/Cylon hybrid would be placed in such an unstable environment as they are highly valuable to the Cylons due to the astonishingly low success rate.

== Analysis ==
*Apparently a single Cylon agent copy can speak for his or her particular model<ref> The phrase "''We'' agree" is said by several models.</ref>. Interestingly, [[Caprica-Six]] fails to dissuade her "sisters" from voting to execute the dissidents.
**This consensus within the copies is done invisibly. Similar communication between Cylons of a single model has been witnessed in several prior episodes:
***In "[[The Farm]]", the copy of Simon which Kara Thrace encounters outside the facility shares the memories of the one she has recently killed, although insufficient time has passed for a resurrection of the type witnessed in "[[Downloaded]]".
***In "[[Home, Part II]]", [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)]] reveals to Galen Tyrol that she has some of the Boomer copy's memories.
***At the start of "[[Occupation]]", the [[Cavil]] model interrogating with Saul Tigh knows of Ellen's work to free him.
**This contact is apparently strictly voluntary. According to Caprica-Sharon in "[[Home, Part I]]", "I'm not wired in. It doesn't work like that," and her presence on New Caprica is not considered a security hazard.
*As one of the Cavils notes, adherence to the Cylon creed has become increasingly perfunctory. The Cylons seek the President's signature as a mere formality.
*If [[Leoben Conoy]]'s story is true, [[Kacey]] can't be older than 16 months<ref>As of this episode, it has been about 27 months since the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|fall of the Colonies]]. Kara Thrace's incarceration at the [[Farms|Farm]] on Caprica took place about two months after the fall of the Colonies.</ref>.
*As Ellen Tigh's actions seem as reprehensible as ever, her motivations this time around are rather more laudable. These two episodes seem to indicate that she truly does care for her husband.
*Cavil informs Ellen Tigh that they released Saul Tigh so that he may continue leading the resistance, thereby ensuring attacks against the Cylons, such as the two bombings that followed his release. These bombings and their results reinforce Cavil's argument that instilling fear and exerting total control over the population is the only viable solution.
**It also might be possible that the release of Tigh might play into the faction of Cylons who continue to hold a strong prejudice towards humans. Caprica-Six and Boomer are clearly shown to be a diminishing voice amongst the Cylon leadership as evidenced when [[Number Five]] shot Caprica-Six in the head. This faction of Cylons may very well be attempting to destroy the experiment that Caprica-Six and Boommer convinced the Cylon population to undergo.
*The Cylons' condemnation to suicide bombings is strikingly hypocritical, in light of the fact that a [[Number Five]] used the same tactic after boarding ''Galactica'' in "[[Litmus]]."
*Following the bombing of the power station, the Cylon leadership conducts a meeting with Gaius Baltar on ''Colonial One''. The camera makes a full clockwise sweep, revealing in order:
**An Eight
**Boomer
**A Cavil
**A Five
**A Three
**Caprica-Six
**Another Cavil
**Another Three (identifies herself as the one killed by [[Caprica-Six]] in "[[Downloaded]]")
**A [[Simon]]
**Another Five
**Two more Sixes
*Cavil introduces the idea of "stronger measures". Assenting, in order, are the second Three, Simon, the second Five, and the last two Sixes. Caprica-Six dissents. Neither Boomer nor the other Eight are consulted. Not present are any copies of Leoben Conoy nor any of the unrevealed five models.

== Notes ==
*"[[Occupation]]/Precipice" was awarded the [[Awards and Honors|IGN.com Editor's choice award]], following a review in which it recieved a rating of 10/10.
*"Occupation" and "Precipice" were edited as one 2-hr episode with only one introduction. However, in the podcast, [[Ronald D. Moore]] indicates the "beginning" of "Precipice" as the scene with Baltar and Roslin in the detention cell.
*In the podcast, [[Ronald D. Moore]] states that references to "The Twist" and "The Swirl" are a homage to ''[[Wikipedia:Seinfeld |Seinfeld]]''. The episode in question is "[[Wikipedia:The Fusilli Jerry |The Fusilli Jerry]]."
*Felix Gaeta's given name, first revealed in "[[Final Cut]]," is spoken out loud for the first time.
*Caprica-Valerii has married Karl Agathon and taken his last name. She continues to be confined to her cell, but it has been decorated and furnished. Ironically enough, she still calls him "Helo."
*Sharon Agathon and William Adama have continued to develop the rapport which they established in "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]."
*[[Number Three]]'s claim that Caprica-Six's assault on her was the first case of Cylon-on-Cylon violence in their history is false. The model known as Boomer destroyed an [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II|entire basestar filled with other Fives]], and there are several other incidents throughout the series.
*Ironically, a Five shoots Caprica-Six in the head shortly after Three's statement. Cavil indicates, however, that she won't be "boxed," as Caprica feared in "[[Downloaded]]."
*The same [[Number Three]] consciousness that is killed in "[[Downloaded]]" by Caprica-Six is present as well, referencing the incident; it is this same Three who questions Six regarding her love of Baltar.
*The apparent shooting of the captives and Cally Tyrol's escape at the end of the episode are an homage to ''[[Wikipedia:The Great Escape|The Great Escape]]''.
*Baltar's Internal-Six appears only after Caprica-Six is shot in the head.
*This episode has the second highest number of guest stars. Only the [[Miniseries]] had more credited stars.
*[[Lee Adama]] stated that there were about 2000 civilians that were on board Fleet ships when they escaped New Caprica, which would mean that after accounting for an unspecified number of military personnel (and an unspecified number of said personnel that were left on New Caprica), at least 5500 people were killed in the destruction of [[Cloud 9]] as well as the other ships destroyed by the nuclear warhead in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]."
*Another four humans are killed in the suicide bombing at the power substation this episode. It is unknown whether or not this figure includes the bomber. Additionally, 23 Cylons are critically wounded; 14 of them are euthanized. Almost half the city is left without power, with repair estimates standing at a minimum of two weeks.
*We finally learn the role of [[Tom Zarek]] in the Baltar administration: he was indeed Baltar's running mate, and was elected Vice President in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]". (This was implied in the last three episodes of season two, but not stated explicitly). He refused to be party to the Cylon occupation and was detained shortly thereafter, until his execution was ordered in this episode.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==
*''Discussing suicide bombings:''
:'''Galen Tyrol''': This is crazy. You know, we need to figure out whose side we're on.
:'''Saul Tigh''': Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We are evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction where ever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that.

*''After being arrested, held without charge and carted to a remote location:''
:'''Tom Zarek''': Laura.. That election last year. You tried to steal it, didn't you?
:'''Laura Roslin''': Yes, Tom. I did.
:'''Tom Zarek''': (laughs) Ah... I wish you'd gone through with it.
:'''Laura Roslin''': So do I.

*''Talking in a cell:''
:'''Cally''': "...frak you Sharon, you stupid frakked-up toaster. How many times do I have to shoot you anyway?"

*''After being slapped by Roslin for accussing her of working for the Cylons:''
:'''Saul Tigh''': You see, little things like that they don't matter anymore. Fact, not too frakking much really matter anymore. I got one job here lady, and one job only. To disrupt the Cylons, make them worry about the ant hill they stirred up down here so they're distracted and out of position when the old man show up in orbit. The bombings, they got the Cylons' attention, they really got their attention. And I am not giving that up.
:'''Laura Roslin''': We are talking about people blowing themselves up.
:'''Tigh''': You know, sometimes I think that you've got ice water in those veins. And other times, I just think that you're just a naive little school teacher. I've sent men on suicide missions in two wars now, and let me tell you something. It don't make a godsdamn bit of difference whether they're riding in a Viper or walking out onto a parade ground. In the end they're just as dead. (pauses) So, take your piety, and your moralizing, and your high-minded principles, and stick 'em somewhere safe until you're off the rock and sitting in your nice, cushy chair on Colonial One again. (stands) I've got a war to fight (leaves).

*''As the Cylons try to force Baltar to sign the execution order, following Number Five's shooting of Capirca-Six in the head:''
:'''Baltar''': "Oh, God."
:'''Cavil''': "She'll be back..."
:'''Cavil''': "... but if he pulls that trigger now, you won't."

== Official Statements ==

== Guest Stars ==
*[[Michael Hogan]] as [[Saul Tigh]]
*[[Aaron Douglas]] as [[Galen Tyrol]]
*[[Tahmoh Penikett]] as Lt. [[Karl Agathon|Karl "Helo" Agathon]]
*[[Nicki Clyne]] as [[Cally Henderson Tyrol|Cally Tyrol]]
*[[Alessandro Juliani]] as [[Felix Gaeta]]
*[[Kandyse McClure]] as [[Anastasia Dualla]]
*[[Lucy Lawless]] as [[Number Three]]
*[[Michael Trucco]] as [[Samuel Anders]]
*[[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]]
*[[Rick Worthy]] as [[Simon]]
*[[Callum Keith Rennie]] as [[Leoben Conoy]]
*[[Kate Vernon]] as [[Ellen Tigh]]
*[[Donnelly Rhodes]] as Dr. [[Cottle]]
*[[Matthew Bennett]] as [[Number Five]]
*[[Rekha Sharma]] as [[Tory Foster]]
*[[Dean Stockwell]] as [[Cavil]]
*[[Erica Cerra]] as [[Maya]]
*[[Luciana Carro]] as Lt. [[Louanne Katraine|Louanne "Kat" Katraine]]
*[[Christian Tessier]] as [[Tucker Clellan|Tucker "Duck" Clellan]]
*[[Brad Dryborough]] as Lt. [[Hoshi]]
*[[Leah Cairns]] as Lt. [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
*Madeleine Parker as [[Kacey]]
*[[Dominic Zamprogna]] as [[James Lyman|James "Jammer" Lyman]]
*[[imdb:nm1773454|Mylène Dinh-Robic]] as Officer #1
*[[imdb:nm1468333|Ryan McDonell]] as Pilot #3
*[[imdb:nm0493171|Byron Lawson]] as Pilot #4
*[[imdb:nm0492687|Colin Lawrence]] as [[Hamish McCall|Hamish "Skulls" McCall]]
*[[imdb:mm,1989989|Larissa Stadnichuk]] as Suicide bomber

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: RDM]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Ronald D. Moore]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]]

[[de:Precipice]]

User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr./Archive

2006-09-12T17:43:11Z

Gallion: Raider Concept source

: ''For discussions prior to September 2, 2005, [http://battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Joe.Beaudoin&oldid=12218 click here].''
: ''For discussions prior to October 17, 2005, [http://battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Joe.Beaudoin&oldid=16737 click here].''
: ''For discussions prior to December 18, 2005, [http://battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Joe.Beaudoin&oldid=19887 click here].''
: ''For discussions prior to February 4, 2006, [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Joe.Beaudoin&oldid=29465 click here].''

== Color scheme ==

Joe,

First of all, kudos on starting the wiki! This will be an excellent resource and community, and I'm ecstatic to see it catch on so quickly.
The color scheme, while definitely striking, can be a little hard on the eyes for some people, myself included. Changing the skin under preferences helps with the white-on-black text, but all the boilerplate tables retain their FG and BG colors (I guess they're controlled by the individual templates, not by CSS). Is there any way around this problem? I don't know enough about Wiki protocol to determine whether templates can also be driven by CSS. If not, perhaps a discussion should be started about modifying the color palette altogether. I personally would love to see an option for a more Colonial-Fleet-themed palette, with shades of gunmetal gray.

Thanks! -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 17:43, 18 January 2006 (EST)

: I bet they can be CSS-ified. Rather than giving them colors in the template directly, give them classes or ids and let the CSS file sort out what colors those mean. Now, I'm not ''certain'' that would work, since I've never worked with the MediaWIki software, but I get the impression that it's fairly robust with regard to things like this. --[[User:Day|Day]] 18:02, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:: I can edit the templates to use CSS classes, and edit the stylesheet appropriately. If anyone can come up with alternate color schemes, please bring them to my attention and I'll see what I can whip up. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:55, 18 January 2006 (EST)

::: Awesome! Thanks, Joe. I can start developing the gray idea... as soon as I relearn CSS. Boy, it's been awhile. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 00:57, 19 January 2006 (EST)

:::: I may be wrong, but the way I read that, Joe wants colors (like #777777 for a grey, though a bland one) from us (though I like and use the black and red scheme). I think he can handle the CSSing. I could be misunderstanding him, though. If you want someone to do some grunt-work CSSing, Joe, lemme know. I know a thing or two about it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:37, 19 January 2006 (EST)

== Name Change ==

Joe, is it possible for you to change my username? Thanks --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 13:32, 28 January 2006 (EST)
: Yes, it should be a relatively painless manner. What do you wish your user name changed to? -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:39, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:: "Kraetos" would be great. Thanks! --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 23:24, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::I would also like my name changed (as I mentioned on my talk page), to "The Merovingian" ("the" is required). If you can't have two words, use "The_Merovingian". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:42, 28 January 2006 (EST)

== CSS ==

[[User:Steelviper|SV]] and I got to talking about [[User talk:Steelviper/CommunityPortal#COlor Scheme|CSSing as it applies to skins here]]. I was wondering, since I know a thing or two (maybe three, but no more) about CSS, how you felt about handing out the .css files to be modified so we could use classes and ids rather than explicit colors for the various templates and boxes we've got around. If you'd rather do this yourself, that's fine, too. I just thought I'd offer/ask. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:38, 1 February 2006 (EST)
: I'd have no problem in giving out the CSS sheets. Just [mailto:joebeaudoin@joebeaudoin.net mail me] with the addresses you want the CSS files sent to and I'll send them out. :-) -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:15, 1 February 2006 (EST)

==Cite extensions==

Joe, I'm not sure if you've seen the [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cite/Cite.php cite extension], but this would make it much easier to document our sources. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:54, 2 February 2006 (EST)
: I've been moseying around the extensions on the MediaWiki & Meta sites and happened upon this one as well; I even tried it on a test wiki I loaded on the server a few days ago. Unfortunately, it only works on the current unstable version of 1.6. (We use the 1.5 series, and I am not comfortable with loading anything that is in alpha stages at this time.) The extension does look cool, however, and would make our lives a lot easier, and I hope that once 1.6 hits stable we can go ahead an implement it on this wiki. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:15, 2 February 2006 (EST)

::Are you certain? en.wikipedia.org seems to have the extension enabled. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:29, 2 February 2006 (EST)

:::Wikipedia is running 1.6alpha of Mediawiki, while we're on 1.5.5 over here. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:35, 2 February 2006 (EST)

:::All Wikimedia projects tend to run the experimental versions of the MediaWiki software. I really don't see the logic of it, but... -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 11:30, 2 February 2006 (EST)

::::That's a neat feature. I'm patient enough to wait for someone else to get the bugs out, though. It will be needed here as the new show becomes not-so-new and mistakes crop up. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:26, 3 February 2006 (EST)

== Smaller Image ==

Joe, I've uploaded a smaller version of he BSG wiki image, so you can use it on the project pages. Most web browsers horribly pixelate images when scaled (see a project page for an example), using this smaller version will prevent that. The file is located at Image:BSG-WIKI-SM.png. [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:BSG-WIKI_SM.png] --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 18:27, 4 February 2006 (EST)

==image==
: ''Moved from [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe's user page]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] on 09:28, 7 February 2006 (EST).''

I get some of my images from http://galactica.emedian.net/. --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 08:24, 7 February 2006 (EST)

== Name Change (Part deux) ==

Joe, I hate to be a bother, but I am politely reminding you of my [[User_talk:Joe.Beaudoin#Name_Change|request]] for a name change. If there is a problem, could you let me know? Thanks! --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 22:12, 7 February 2006 (EST)

== Slander ==

Joe, I tried to use the "e-mail this user" in the toolbox but it said I need to be logged in with a valid e-mail address in my preferences, which I do so I don't know why I couldn't email you. So I'll have to ask you this here. Feel free to delete this after you read it.

I would hope that the Battlestar Wiki strives to be free of slander so I am requesting you remove the parts of Merv's posting in this thread:

http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Sources_talk:Correspondence_with_Jim_Iaccino

Where he claims that I called Jim's workplace ( I did not and he admits he was "voicing it as a possibility as I have my suspicions. It's actually probably nothing.")

Where he claims I PM'd him an abusive message (I have never PM'd him.)

Where he claims I expressed a desire to "anally rape" him (I certainly have never expressed such a desire.)

Where he claims I sent YOU a threatening e-mail (I'm sure you realise this is false.)

These claims are clearly slander and have no place on your website. The fact that he made up a fictitious PM ((the PM "yeah I am Ribzy you frakhead and I'm going to crucify you!", was a dead giveaway...) Should tell you the depths he will sink to support his slander.

Thank you, take care and control.

== Raider Concept source ==

Joe,

There are many sources out there where you can get these images but the place I actually snagged them from was Galactica Station, and specifically from here:[http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/gallery.htm].

I hope this is good enough.

--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:43, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Battlestar Galactica: The Resistance/Archive 1

2006-09-08T12:31:13Z

Gallion: /* Connectivity?!? */

I think the Webisodes are a great idea that may expand the BSG Audience. Anyway, I can hope. --[[User:Gougef|gougef]] 22:07, 27 May 2006 (CDT)

I really, REALLY dont like the idea of this. 'Caprica' was bad enough (but i'll begrudgingly watch it anyway cause you kinda have to) but the idea of filler really, REALLY sucks - why oh why cant RDM and Eick just put the events of whats happened into one/two/three regular episodes rather than put these up? No doubt there'll be wonderful nuggegts of info put into these eps, and references made to them in normal eps that people wont get unless they watch these little 'things'. Ron - if you're reading this - you're getting WAY too ahead of yourself - keep to writing BSG itself first, no fancy pants crap, drop Caprica cause its a dumb idea and focus on what people want more of - BSG itself, not a spinoff, not webisodes - JUST BSG!!! </rant> Grr! --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 03:47, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
:Actually it might work really well, they did a similar thing with Richard E Grant voicing Doctor Who a few years back on the BBC website --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 06:38, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
: The BBC is also doing the ''Doctor Who Confidential'' series in tandem with the new ''Doctor Who'', as well as the mini ''Tardisodes'' that you can get from BBC's site. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:41, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
::I know the Tardisodes are available - but for those of us without broadband (i will be sans broadband for a long time in the next month or so), web episodes arent a good idea. There are going to be plenty of people that dont want to be forced into watching something online, and with the Tardisodes that the BBC put up, they're totally self contained AFAIK, with no references made to them from other episodes, and they're non-important in terms of the overall storyline of DW, as well as being able to be viewed on the Digibox (digital terrestrial DVB-T or Digital Satellite set top box) by pressing 'the big red button'. BSG on the other hand, they're talking about a major part of the backstory which is hardly what i'd call trivial! Are they going to air the episodes on telly for those countries outside the US or will they just assume everyone has fast broadband and dont watch telly? --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 13:07, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

:: This is the future of TV within 2-3 years most if not all tv shows will have some online content similar to the webisodes. --[[User:Gougef|gougef]] 12:14, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

:::I just cant see why its necessary to split up a show into loads of different segments, have some aired on telly, some on the net - it just makes everything that more annoying - why oh *why* can't TV execs just get the idea into their thick skulls that people are happy watching telly AS IT IS!!! --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 13:30, 19 June 2006 (CDT)

:::: My guess is that it is a business decision. You can show an advertiser exactly how many viewers. Also, you get more opportunities to advertise per viewer. Due to the web, DVR's, etc., I don't see the current TV business model surviving.--[[User:Gougef|gougef]] 13:46, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

I have the feeling that the episode "Unfinished Business" will be a clip show of the webisodes, Just a guess. --[[User:Gougef|gougef]] 12:14, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

:No, they showed that it's different stuff: "Unfinished Business" deals with stuff *before* the Cylons came, the webisodes deal with stuff after that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:52, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
::Great more BSG content :D!! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:52, 18 July 2006 (CDT)

:I do hope that these get aired on telly, i really, really do :'( --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 13:29, 19 June 2006 (CDT)

:This is not a bad idea at all. It's like a side project. Something that more than likely will have no tie-in to the regular series. Otherwise, why not call them teasers instead of webisodes? It's not featuring any of the main cast as far as we have been told. All the more interesting. My only regret about it is it will be something only accessed on Galactica's SciFi site, and not available on iTunes.--[[User:AJFederation|AJFederation]] 01:41, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

==Add into Episode Guide template==

Right now, Season 2 ends and proceeds to Season 3 in the template at the bottom of the screen: where's the page where I can add this webisode series into the succession?: I think it should be put at the beginning of Season 3 (or at least, after LDYB II clicking "next" would lead here, not season 3 proper). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:13, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

In addition, I think the format of this page should be that of any one episode in the episode guide; that is, there won't be separate subpages linked for each of the 10 webisodes: ***Bradley Thompson, who co-wrote these, said he considers it one story, just broken up into 10 chunks, which I think is just like how a normal episode is broken up by commercial breaks. This really isn't a separate series, so much as a "special episode". It's not a separate series, but part of the series between Seasons 2 and 3 (we asked Thompson how we should consider it with that; waiting on answer). --->Originally I had thought this would be a parent series page that had episodes linked from it, but based on Thompson's comments it makes more sense just to put it in an episode format. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:44, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

==September Debut==

An BSG article in the October issue of SciFi Magazine says the Webisodes will start in September. Whether the WGA actions will affect this or not is unknown. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:21, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
:The WGA announcement was this Wednesday. I do know they were originally planned to be aired for 10 weeks (one each week) before the season premiere...in which case they would already have started two weeks ago. I think there was foot dragging where they hoped to ''vaguely'' "have them out in September or something" but that this broke down. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:24, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
:: The mag probably went to print assuming that everything will be ok, but it's not?? No word from Bradley yet?--[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:28, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
:::Nothing. I'd make a big deal about it if there was. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:36, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
::::I was just hoping for tidbit of the webisodes by now to feed my raging beast ;-). Thanks for being on top of it--[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:40, 19 August 2006 (CDT)
I'm confused about the last paragraph of the Contract Disputes... section. We say "several weeks" later from August, the tapes were handed over. (I assume that means at least 3 weeks.) The WGA/NBCU dispute became public on Aug. 12 and the NLRB greviance was filed on the 18th. It doesn't seem that three weeks have passed. Can that be clarified? Also, what changed or broke the stalemate? There has been nothing announced in Variety or elsewhere, at least in regard to The Office. How can the BSG producers turn over tapes without getting in trouble with the writers guild, of which Moore and Eick are presumably members. Can anyone explain?--[[User:Elach|Elach]] 13:42, 28 August 2006 (CDT)

== "Image" ==

When we do a picture for the Episode Data block and this is all done, we should take all 10 of the images and put them in a pattern so it would be a mossic image. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 20:39, 2 September 2006 (CDT)

:I like your idea, and I suggest 2 wide by 5 tall, as it must be either 1x10 or 2x5 (barring tomfoolery), and 5x2 would have unfortunate aspect ratio consequences. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 00:20, 3 September 2006 (CDT)

== Connectivity?!? ==

Is anyone else having problems watching the webisodes?
I've waited all this time for them to air and I can't watch a single one!

How shady is that?

Do Sci-Fi.com have availbility problems regarding this, and how hong is it going to take to fix?

Does anyone know if they are going to be released in any other format other than webisode? --Jetstorm316
:I just watched it not 20 minutes ago and it worked. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 05:32, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::You need the latest Flash player. You can get it from the Marrocmedia Website. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 08:42, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::Any way to watch it if not from America? Wont let me watch here in the UK :( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:21, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::::Tried several US proxies and it just wont load. can someone save it and upload to google video or youtube or summit? :( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:40, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::::This is bending the policy,but it is on you-tube (Watch this morning because it works better than the official site at lower speeds). Should be a link on skiffy board somewhere. Or gtalk or gmail me and I will find the link. gougef at gmail dot com. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 11:44, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::::::Well said, Frankie. No hosting or linking to "illegal" copies... but like he said there's youtube links at sciffy (even though the admins appear to be trying to delete them). And the "flash player" official version was choppy even with ultra-broadband. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:00, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::::::Thanks for your help anyway guys. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:13, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Does any one have the link for the you tube version? My Flash player is upto date, but can't watch here in the UK........

Must be a Trans-Atlantic thing or something, but I hope they put it on 3.0 to compensate for people who are missing out.--Jetstorm316 19:12GMT 5 september 2006

EUREKA! Success at last! If you have a torrent client, go to this link,
<<removed link>>
Now, we can all watch it at our leasure --jetstorm316 19:34hrs GMT
:We don't host or link copies. Removed. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 13:18, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:Please do not link to the webisodes or clips of BSG on this Wiki that are copyrighted. Thank you --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 13:21, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

And thats the thanks I get for helping us all out who have connectivity problems? You know what, F*** the lot of you! I won't visit this site again!

This is the last entry for Jetstorm316

Goodbye and good F***ing luck to you bunch of F***ing losers!
:Please do not feel offended by up removing the link you posted. As i mentioned on your talk page It was nice of you to think of others but we dont want to get into any copyright issues with the producers. I hope you re-think your decision about leaving as your other contributions in the talk pages have been great --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 13:49, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::what Mercifull said. Personally, it was hard to get use to posting here after being involve with other online forums and communities. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 13:59, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::It's easy for me 'cause on other forums I don't link to that kinda junk anyway. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:51, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

'''Obviously''' there is more than a little frustration over not being able to connect outside the US. I'm not sure about the UK and other countries, but I do know that Canada's Space Channel has bought the show to broadcast on pretty much the same dates as in the US. This makes the fact that we Canadians(and anyone else who is going to see the show boadcast legally on television on October outside the US) would really benefit from being able to access the webisodes...we will watch the premier on Space, just like everyone else, except we are forced to result to illegal means to see the webisodes. I know this is a novelty, and perhaps the websiode content won't greatly affect the regularly aired shows, but really, I truly feel that this is a bad mistake on SciFi's behalf...and maybe even on Canada's Space Channel's Behalf for not seeking to host the webisodes on their Canadian site. It'll be something that they can claim as "EXTRA SPECIAL" on the DVD releases perhaps..but I think that once that is done, it becomes "bonus material" for the DVD and no longer the exciting and unique experience of participating with everyone else, waiting expectantly for the next five minute morsel to whet our appetites for the coming season...instead we have to lurk around in the dark and worry that maybe YOUTUBE is going to cut us off. We are fans and we all want the same great experience.

Maybe this isn't the place to debate...but I think I'll be writing both SciFi and SPACE to see how they can make a better, more rounded fan experience for an evidently GLOBAL audience.
--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:31, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

==Cast & Crew announced==
Now that Ron Moore has [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/ announced] the full cast and crew listing of the webisodes, it may be better to have a crew section and a cast section instead of listing the cast under each of the ten recaps. --[[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 21:17, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
:Agree, but we should make when we saw each cast memeber. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:29, 6 September 2006 (CDT)

== Sister Tivenan ==
I'd imagine the pirestess I didn't recognize in webisode 2 was the Sister Tivenan in those credits by elimination. That does not leave me quite comfortable with claiming her as identified. I didn't find a Tivenan by search here, so I'd assume she's a new character. I solicit opinions. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 23:54, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
:She appears to be a completely new character.--[[User:Larocque6689|Larocque6689]] 06:58, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

== Doral/Number Five ==

It seems like such a trivial thing to bring up, but I notice that the Wiki credits (anticipating his future appearance) now refer to Matthew Bennett's role as [[Number Five]] even though Ron's blog specifically refers to his role as [[Doral]] and that he is referred to as a Doral model in several episodes (including "[[Litmus]]".) Rather than revert it back, I'll just note the change and leave it up here as something to resolve until he makes his webisode debut.--[[User:Larocque6689|Larocque6689]] 07:04, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
:There are many Fives but only one Aaron Doral, and there's no indication that it's him. RDM refers to models other than Sixes as "D'annas", "Dorals", "Sharons" etc. for simplicity's sake. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 07:58, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

Demand Peace

2006-08-09T15:45:57Z

Gallion:

[[Image:Demand Peace 2.jpg|thumb|Demand Peace's operational emblem]]

[[Image:Daru mozu 213 1080i.jpg|thumb|right|Demand Peace's attack on the ''[[Daru Mozu]]'']]

'''Demand Peace''' is an organization (operating out of ''[[Cloud 9]]'') led by [[Royan Jahee]] that has sprung up within the fleet seeking peace with the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]]. Their ideology has gained significant traction amongst the civilian population of the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] who believe surrender to the Cylons is preferable to a life on the run.

The movement has recently started making violent protests, striking against the Fleet's military assets, such as the ammunition stores of the [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' and ore processing operations on the [[tylium]] [[refinery ship]] ''[[Daru Mozu]]''.

The group's first known action began by sneaking a Demand Peace mole, [[Asha Janik]], aboard ''Galactica'' to work as a civilian munitions worker. While there, she sabatoges ''Galactica'''s [[Viper (RDM)|Vipers]] by producing faulty hollow-rounds for the fighter's guns. ''Galactica's'' crew members later capture and interrogate her. The next act of sabotage takes place about the [[tylium]] refinery ship ''[[Daru Mozu]]'', where Demand Peace members aboard the ship detonate a bomb close to its [[FTL]] drive.

Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]] secretly provides the group a nuclear warhead (given to him to make his [[Cylon detector]] by then-Commander [[William Adama|Adama]]) in order to aid the future plans of Demand Peace member and [[Cylon agent|possibly disaffected Cylon]] agent [[Gina]]. After his election to the Presidencey, Baltar visits Gina aboard ''Cloud 9'' to break the news to her that his duties as President would limit the time he could spend with her. In an attempt to get him to stay with her she gives in and against her better judgement has sex with him. Feeling disgusted with herself and finally hitting bottom, she arms and detonates the nuclear warhead and destroys ''Cloud 9'' and several near-by ships just as Baltar is sworn in. The fate of Demand Peace and the remainder of its members after the ''Cloud 9'' disaster is presently unknown ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

==Known Members==

*[[Royan Jahee]] - Leader
*[[Gina]] †
*[[Asha Janik]]

==Publications==
[[Image:Demand Peace 1.jpg|thumb|right|Demand Peace's manifesto pamphelt]]

The "Demand Peace" pamphlet read by ''Galactica'''s senior officers in "[[Epiphanies]]" contains the following statements:

Front page:
<blockquote>DEMAND PEACE
A MANIFESTO TO NEGOTIATE AN END TO THE SLAUGHTER</blockquote>

First page:
<blockquote>DEMAND PEACE
[...]This is our cause. This is your cause.

OUR CAUSE WILL SAVE MANKIND
Commander Adama would have you believe that he will save us. But can one man claim ?? to save the future of all mankind? Clearly the task is too great for a warrior. It demands the perspective of a statesman and a historian. In short a democratic council. Is this what we have? Despite lip service to the processes of democracy the [...]</blockquote>

Second page:
<blockquote>WE BELIEVE
<ol><li>Only open dialogue can save mankind.</li>
<li>The military is the servant, not the masters, of the fleet.</li>
<li>The cylons will respond to reasonable dialogue.</li>
<li>Democracy is the key to responsible decision making for the future of mankind.</li>
<li>Man and Cylons can coexist in peace.</li>
<li>We are at the dawn of a new beginning for mankind.</li>
<li>The enemies of peace are the enemies of mankind.</li></ol>

DEMAND PEACE</blockquote>

Additionally, [[Saul Tigh]] quotes the following passage: "Do not be afraid. We are not terrorists, but we will not sit back while Adama's war machine continues to press us into cruel and futile conflict."

[[category:RDM]][[Category:A to Z]][[Category:Colonial Society]]

Cubit

2006-08-09T15:38:38Z

Gallion: /* In the Re-imagined Series */

'''Cubits''' are a form of government-regulated currency used throughout the Twelve Colonies in both the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]] and [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]].

==In the Original Series==

Cubits were normally seen in coin form. Frequently, viewers have seen cubits played in [[Pyramid (TOS)|pyramid]] games, usually while [[Starbuck (TOS)|Starbuck]] is playing.

==In the Re-imagined Series==
[[Image:Bsg_cubit_starbuck_001.jpg|thumb|[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] tearing a 1000 cubit slip. ([[Colonial Day]])]]
The cubit typically comes in two forms: coin and paper ([[Miniseries]]).

The paper version comes in denominations of 1, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 (logically assumed), 500 ([[Act of Contrition]]) and even 1000 ([[Colonial Day]]). Coin versions of cubits also exist and bear the icon of the colony of origin on at least one of its sides. Coines can be gold or silver ([[Black Market]]).

Currency within [[The Fleet (RDM)|refugee fleet]] led by ''Galactica'' became technically worthless as pointed out by [[Tom Zarek]]. However, President Roslin's administration did strive to address this, and presidential aide [[Wallace Gray]] is instrumental in a move to return the Fleet to a currency-based economy to allow commerce in the Fleet to continue so this form of currency is still utilized ([[Colonial Day]]).

It is assumed that cubits became the common currency after the [[Articles of Colonization]] were passed.

==Notes==
The [[wikipedia:Cubit|Cubit]] is an ancient unit of measurement used by various civilizations and mentioned several times in the [[wikipedia:Bible|Christian Bible]], most prominently in the [[wikipedia:Old Testament|Old Testament]] story of [[wikipedia:Noah's Ark|Noah's Ark]]. The ''natural cubit'' is based on the distance between thumb and another finger to the elbow on an average person.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category: Colonial Society]]
[[Category:RDM]]

[[de:Cubit]]

Launch tube (TRS)

2006-08-09T13:29:42Z

Gallion:

[[Image:7961 HoG.JPG|thumb|right|[[Viper 7961]] waits with others to be launched ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).]]

'''Launch tubes''' are extensively used on [[Battlestar (RDM)|battlestar]]s as a means of launching [[Viper (RDM)|Vipers]] and [[Blackbird|other similar craft]] in the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|re-imagined]] series.

''[[Galactica]]'' has a total of 80 launch tubes, forty per [[flight pod]]. They are divided into five groups of eight tubes each. The launch tubes fit one [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]] at a time. Four launch tubes are controlled by a launch supervisor. Centrally located, the launch supervisor can observe two launch tubes on either side of the control station thru a wide view port. After running the preliminary checks on the Viper, the launch supervisor presses the launch button and a magnetic catapult throws the [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]] out at an incredibly quick speed. The following quote depicts the standard launch sequence (in this case the launch of the [[Blackbird]]).

'''[[Starbuck]]''': Instruments... in the green. Fuel pressure... nominal.

'''Petty Officer 2nd Class''' '''[[Dualla]]''': [[Apollo]], Starbuck. Blackbird flight is cleared for launch.

'''Starbuck''': Run-up.

'''Captain''' '''[[Aaron Kelly]]''': Maglock secure, initiate launch sequence.

'''Starbuck''': Oh, don't blow up on me, you bastard.

'''Kelly''': You are clear for launch.

'''Dualla''': Blackbird is away.

--''[[Flight of the Phoenix]]''

The launch tubes are separated from the [[hangar deck]] by large airtight metal doors. When these doors close after the ship is in the tube, the doors at the end of the tube open, allowing the tube to open up into space. Ships are returned to the hangar deck from the [[landing bay]] via elevators.

[[Alert Fighters]] are kept in the tubes at all times just in case a threat appears and the [[Combat Air Patrol|CAP]] cannot reach it in time or require reinforcements.

The launch tubes are used to allow the dead a military space funeral when there is no earth in which to bury them ([[Act of Contrition]]).

As of "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]" only the port launch tubes are operational. The starboard launch was converted into a gift shop to go with the planned museum in the starboard hangar bay prior to the [[Cylon Attack|destruction of the Twelve Colonies]]. However, the starboard launch was depressurized due to the crashlanding of a [[Cylon Heavy Raider]] through the windowed enclosure, which occured when ''Galactica'' attempted to recalculate the coordinates of the Fleet ([[Scattered]]).

== See also ==

* Captain [[Aaron Kelly]], the [[Landing Signal Officer]] on ''Galactica''
* "[[Final Cut]]" is a rare episode in which the camera actually follows Vipers as they are wheeled from the middle of the hangar deck and loaded into launch tubes, then take off.

[[Category:A to Z]][[Category:RDM]][[Category:Galactica Areas]][[Category:Terminology]]

Launch tube (TRS)

2006-08-09T12:44:14Z

Gallion:

[[Image:7961 HoG.JPG|thumb|right|[[Viper 7961]] waits with others to be launched ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).]]

'''Launch tubes''' are extensively used on [[Battlestar (RDM)|battlestar]]s as a means of launching [[Viper (RDM)|Vipers]] and [[Blackbird|other similar craft]] in the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|re-imagined]] series.

''[[Galactica]]'' has a total of 80 launch tubes, forty per [[flight pod]]. They are divided into five groups of eight tubes each. The launch tubes fit one [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]] at a time. Four launch tubes are controlled by a launch supervisor. Centrally located, the launch supervisor can observe two launch tubes on either side of the control station thru a wide view port. After running the preliminary checks on the Viper, the launch supervisor presses the launch button and a magnetic catapult (Maglock) throws the [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]] out at an incredibly quick speed.

The launch tubes are separated from the [[hangar deck]] by large airtight metal doors. When these doors close after the ship is in the tube, the doors at the end of the tube open, allowing the tube to open up into space. Ships are returned to the hangar deck from the [[landing bay]] via elevators.

[[Alert Fighters]] are kept in the tubes at all times just in case a threat appears and the [[Combat Air Patrol|CAP]] cannot reach it in time or require reinforcements.

The launch tubes are used to allow the dead a military space funeral when there is no earth in which to bury them ([[Act of Contrition]]).

As of "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]" only the port launch tubes are operational. The starboard launch was converted into a gift shop to go with the planned museum in the starboard hangar bay prior to the [[Cylon Attack|destruction of the Twelve Colonies]]. However, the starboard launch was depressurized due to the crashlanding of a [[Cylon Heavy Raider]] through the windowed enclosure, which occured when ''Galactica'' attempted to recalculate the coordinates of the Fleet ([[Scattered]]).

== See also ==

* Captain [[Aaron Kelly]], the [[Landing Signal Officer]] on ''Galactica''
* "[[Final Cut]]" is a rare episode in which the camera actually follows Vipers as they are wheeled from the middle of the hangar deck and loaded into launch tubes, then take off.

[[Category:A to Z]][[Category:RDM]][[Category:Galactica Areas]][[Category:Terminology]]

Sources:Season 3 Episode Titles

2006-08-08T13:20:17Z

Gallion:

{{official bsg staff posting|member=[[User:Ngarenn|Bradley Thompson]]}}

*[[Episode 3.1|Occupation]] -- written by Ronald D Moore, Dir by Sergio Mimica-Gezzan
*[[Episode 3.2|Precipice]] -- written by Ronald D Moore, Dir by Sergio Mimica-Gezzan
*[[Episode 3.3|Exodus]] -- two parts, written by David Weddle & Bradley Thompson, Dir by Felix Acala (Part 1) Part 2 is technically unassigned right now.
*[[Episode 3.4|Collaborators]] -- written by Mark Verheiden, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Episode 3.5|Torn]] -- written by Anne Cofell Saunders, Dir by Jean de Segoznac
*[[Episode 3.6]] -- written by Michael Angeli, Dir by Bill Eagles
*[[Hero]] - name confirmed (and written by) David Eick, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Unfinished Business]] -name confirmed by Grace Park - written by Michael Taylor, Dir by Bob Young
*[[The Passage]] -name confirmed by Jane Espenson, Dir by Michael Nankin
*[[Episode 3.10]] - written by Mark Verheiden, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Episode 3.11]] - written by David Weddle & Bradley Thompson, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Episode 3.12]] - written by Michael Taylor, Dir by Edward James Olmos
*[[Episode 3.13]] - written by Michael Angeli, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Episode 3.14]] - written by Mark Verheiden
*[[Episode 3.15]] - written by Anne Cofell Saunders
:: Please keep in mind that these credits have not yet been confirmed by the [[Wikipedia:Writers Guild of America|WGA]] or the [[Wikipedia:Directors Guild of America|DGA]]. Episodes 3.12 is about to go into preproduction. Eps 3.13-3.15 are in various stages of the pipeline. The directors have been assigned but - this is TV - anything can change. Eps 3.1 & 3.2 were merged to form a two-hour premiere episode, and 3.3 was broken into two episodes, which I guess technically makes them 3.2 & 3.3 -- but numbering is something I'll leave to you. - [[User:Ngarenn|Bradley Thompson]] 20:32, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

Like I said, many reputable websites have listed the names of the first 5 episodes (though they didn't confirm their source, so we didn't list them) as "Occupation", "Precipice", "Exodus", "Collaborators", and "Torn".

:: I can confirm that those are the titles on the scripts. None of them are final. - [[User:Ngarenn|Bradley Thompson]] 20:32, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

== Added July 29, 2006 ==

Anyway, I want to make sure I got this correct:
*[[Occupation]] - Episode 1 - written byRon Moore, directed by Sergio Mimica-Gezzan
*[[Precipice]] - Episode 1.5 (aired the same night, same writer/director team)
*[[Exodus, Part I]] - Episode 2 - written by ''[[User:Ngarenn|Thompson]]'' & Weddle, director Felix Acala
*[[Exodus, Part II]] - Episode 3 - written ''[[User:Ngarenn|Thompson]]'' & Weddle, director technically unassigned
*[[Collaborators]] - Episode 4 - written by Mark Verheiden, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Torn]] - Episode 5 -written by Anne Cofell Saunders, Dir by Jean de Segoznac
*[[A Measure of Salvation]] - Episode 6 - written by Michael Angeli, Dir by Bill Eagles? RDM keeps calling Hero episode 7, but more than 6 episodes were listed before it above.
::That's because you're counting Occupation and Precipice as two eps. Which they used to be, but they will air as one massive season premiere. - [[User:Ngarenn|Bradley Thompson]] 16:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
*[[Hero]] - Episode 7 (Ron and David keep referring to this as "Episode 7", so I think this one is in sync) written by David Eick, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Unfinished Business]] - Episode 8 - written by Michael Taylor, Dir by Bob Young
*[[The Passage]] - Episode 9 (confirmed at the moment) writer Jane Espenson, Dir by Michael Nankin
*[[The Eye of Jupiter]] - Episode 10 - Christmas break cliffhanger two part episode. written by Mark Verheiden, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Rapture]] - Episode 11 - written by David Weddle & ''[[User:Ngarenn|Bradley Thompson]]'', Dir by Michael Rymer (This is the second half of the cliffhanger)
*[[Episode 3.12]] - written by Michael Taylor, Dir by Edward James Olmos
*[[Episode 3.13]] - written by Michael Angeli, Dir by Michael Rymer
*[[Episode 3.14]] - written by Mark Verheiden
*[[Episode 3.15]] - written by Anne Cofell Saunders

::Correct as noted, to the best of my knowledge today - [[User:Ngarenn|Bradley Thompson]] 16:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

Thanks. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:07, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

Atmospheric shuttle

2006-08-04T18:19:25Z

Gallion:

{{Ship Data
| image= Galleonmeadow.jpg
| title= Atmospheric shuttle
| race= Colonial
| type= Military/Civilian
| ftl= Yes
| crew= Unknown
| role= Short range [[FTL]] passenger transport between ships/planet surface
}}

'''Atmospheric shuttles''' are [[FTL|Jump]]-capable vessels whose primary role is ferrying passengers to and from the different vessels within [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] or to a planet's surface.

Atmospheric shuttles appear on both military and civilian vessels. A shuttle is seen in the [[landing bay]] of battlestar ''[[Galactica]]'' ([[Miniseries]]) and on the hangar deck of ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]). An atmospheric shuttle ferries [[Laura Roslin faction|a group seeking the whereabouts of Earth]] to the [[Galleon Meadow]] on [[Kobol]] ([[Home, Part I]]), and docks to ''Galactica'' in "[[Act of Contrition]]." A shuttle is also seen at rest on the surface of [[New Caprica]] during its colonization.

==Note==
The atmospheric shuttle's counterpart in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]] is the [[Colonial Shuttle (TOS)|Colonial Shuttle]]. However, the Original Series shuttle was briefly seen at the start of the [[Miniseries]] as it ferries the [[Colonial Fleet]]'s [[Armistice Officer]] from [[Picon Fleet Headquarters]] to [[Armistice Station]].

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Craft]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Colonial shuttle

2006-08-04T18:16:42Z

Gallion: /* Re-imagined Series */

{{Ship Data
| image= colonialshuttle.jpg
| title= Colonial Shuttle
| race= Colonial
| type= Military
| ftl= No
| role= Twin-engined cargo craft
}}

The '''Colonial Shuttle''' is a large, twin-engined cargo craft. The shuttle is unarmed, but is capable of carrying a [[landram]] (or [[snowram]]) and cargo in addition to a crew compliment. Shuttles are equipped with a loading ramp that allows for rapid deployment of the stowed vehicle ([[The Gun on Ice Planet Zero, Part I (TOS)|The Gun on Ice Planet Zero]]). Shuttles can also be used for deploying parachute troops, dropping out of the shuttle from a special chamber ([[The Living Legend, Part II]]). In the hours after the [[Cylon]] attack on the Colonies, shuttles of this type ferried survivors from ships in the Ragtag fleet to [[Galactica (TOS)|''Galactica'']] for medical treatment ([[Saga of a Star World]]). While the cockpit has seating for two pilots, the rear compartment has ample room for large numbers of civilian passengers.

[[Image:Tosshuttle.JPG|left|thumb|The Original Series shuttle as seen in the opening scene of the RDM [[Miniseries]].]]
==Re-imagined Series==

A '''Colonial Shuttle''' is seen at the start of the [[Miniseries]] as it ferries the [[Colonial Fleet]]'s [[Armistice Officer]] from [[Picon Fleet Headquarters]] to [[Armistice Station]].

[[Image:Shuttletos.jpg|right|thumb|The Original Series shuttle as seen in the opening scene of the RDM [[Miniseries]].]]
Another shuttle of this type is seen in the [[Galactica (RDM)|''Galactica'']] exhibition in the [[Miniseries]], indicating that shuttles of this type may have once been used on ''Galactica'' herself. Also of note is the similar, perhaps "updated",[[FTL]] capable version of an [[atmospheric shuttle]] analogous in form and function, used to land in [[Galleon Meadow]] on [[Kobol]] ([[Home, Part I]]).

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Craft (TOS)]]
[[Category:Colonial Military (TOS)]]
[[Category:Technology]]
[[Category:TOS]]

Arrow of Apollo

2006-08-04T18:01:07Z

Gallion: /* Original Series Comparison */

[[Image:bsg-arrow-apollo.jpg|thumb|The Arrow of Apollo on display in the Delphi Museum of the Colonies]]

The '''Arrow of Apollo''' is a symbolic great hunting arrow and a symbol of [[Apollo, Lord of Kobol]]. The Arrow, as it turns out, is also a key.

Legend states that the Arrow is the one surviving clue to location of the planet [[Earth]] ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). According to accounts of the scriptures of [[Pythia]] and [[Laura Roslin]]'s statement to the [[Quorum of Twelve]], the arrow is a key of sorts, which will open the [[Tomb of Athena]] ([[Fragged]]).

This arrow itself was on display in the [[Delphi Museum of the Colonies]] in the City of [[Delphi]] on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]).

While the city itself suffered extensive damage as a result of bombing during the [[Cylon attack]], the Arrow survived undamaged in the ruins of the museum. It becomes the focal point of [[Laura Roslin]]'s attempts to discover the whereabouts of Earth following the apparently accidental discovery of [[Kobol]] by the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]). The quest for the Arrows leads Lieutenant [[Kara Thrace]] to disobey orders, taking a captured [[Cylon Raider]] to Caprica to retrieve the Arrow.

[[Image:Arrowofapolloinuse.jpg|left|thumb|The Arrow in use ([[Home, Part II]])]]
The Arrow is guarded at the museum by a copy of [[Number Six]] until collected by Thrace and [[The Farm|eventually]] taken to the ''[[Astral Queen]]'' and fugitive President Roslin ([[Home, Part I]]).

The Arrow did not in fact open the Tomb of Athena, as stated in the scriptures, but activated a planetarium inside when placed in the bow of the statue of Sagittaron within it. It is not indicated whether the Arrow was recovered from the Tomb after its use.
<div style="clear: both;"></div>

==Original Series Comparison==

In the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]] two-part episode,"[[Lost Planet of the Gods, Part I|Lost Planet of the Gods]]," Commander [[Adama (TOS)|Adama]] wears a [[Adama's Medallion|medallion]] that he uses as a key to enter the tomb of the [[Ninth Lord of Kobol]]. As with the users of the Arrow of Apollo in the later series, the original Adama and his ''[[Galactica (TOS)|Galactica]]'' also searched for information on the whereabouts of Earth. Unfortunately, his team is interrupted by [[Cylons (TOS)|Cylon]] attacks and is forced to abandon the quest.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Religion]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Colonial shuttle

2006-08-04T15:10:58Z

Gallion:

{{Ship Data
| image= colonialshuttle.jpg
| title= Colonial Shuttle
| race= Colonial
| type= Military
| ftl= No
| role= Twin-engined cargo craft
}}

The '''Colonial Shuttle''' is a large, twin-engined cargo craft. The shuttle is unarmed, but is capable of carrying a [[landram]] (or [[snowram]]) and cargo in addition to a crew compliment. Shuttles are equipped with a loading ramp that allows for rapid deployment of the stowed vehicle ([[The Gun on Ice Planet Zero, Part I (TOS)|The Gun on Ice Planet Zero]]). Shuttles can also be used for deploying parachute troops, dropping out of the shuttle from a special chamber ([[The Living Legend, Part II]]). In the hours after the [[Cylon]] attack on the Colonies, shuttles of this type ferried survivors from ships in the Ragtag fleet to [[Galactica (TOS)|''Galactica'']] for medical treatment ([[Saga of a Star World]]). While the cockpit has seating for two pilots, the rear compartment has ample room for large numbers of civilian passengers.

[[Image:Tosshuttle.JPG|left|thumb|The Original Series shuttle as seen in the opening scene of the RDM [[Miniseries]].]]
==Re-imagined Series==

A '''Colonial Shuttle''' is seen at the start of the [[Miniseries]] as it ferries the [[Colonial Fleet]]'s [[Armistice Officer]] from [[Picon Fleet Headquarters]] to [[Armistice Station]].

[[Image:Shuttletos.jpg|right|thumb|The Original Series shuttle as seen in the opening scene of the RDM [[Miniseries]].]]
Another shuttle of this type is seen in the [[Galactica (RDM)|''Galactica'']] exhibition in the [[Miniseries]], indicating that shuttles of this type may have once been used on ''Galactica'' herself. Also of note is the similar, perhaps "updated" version of an atmospheric shuttle analogous in form and function, used to land in [[Galleon Meadow]] on [[Kobol]]([[Home, Part I]]).

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Craft (TOS)]]
[[Category:Colonial Military (TOS)]]
[[Category:Technology]]
[[Category:TOS]]

Colonial shuttle

2006-08-04T15:09:33Z

Gallion:

{{Ship Data
| image= colonialshuttle.jpg
| title= Colonial Shuttle
| race= Colonial
| type= Military
| ftl= No
| role= Twin-engined cargo craft
}}

The '''Colonial Shuttle''' is a large, twin-engined cargo craft. The shuttle is unarmed, but is capable of carrying a [[landram]] (or [[snowram]]) and cargo in addition to a crew compliment. Shuttles are equipped with a loading ramp that allows for rapid deployment of the stowed vehicle ([[The Gun on Ice Planet Zero, Part I (TOS)|The Gun on Ice Planet Zero]]). Shuttles can also be used for deploying parachute troops, dropping out of the shuttle from a special chamber ([[The Living Legend, Part II]]). In the hours after the [[Cylon]] attack on the Colonies, shuttles of this type ferried survivors from ships in the Ragtag fleet to [[Galactica (TOS)|''Galactica'']] for medical treatment ([[Saga of a Star World]]). While the cockpit has seating for two pilots, the rear compartment has ample room for large numbers of civilian passengers.

[[Image:Tosshuttle.JPG|left|thumb|The Original Series shuttle as seen in the opening scene of the RDM [[Miniseries]].]]
==Re-imagined Series==

A '''Colonial Shuttle''' is seen at the start of the [[Miniseries]] as it ferries the [[Colonial Fleet]]'s [[Armistice Officer]] from [[Picon Fleet Headquarters]] to [[Armistice Station]].

[[Image:Shuttletos.jpg|right|thumb|The Original Series shuttle as seen in the opening scene of the RDM [[Miniseries]].]]
Another shuttle of this type is seen in the [[Galactica (RDM)|''Galactica'']] exhibition in the [[Miniseries]], indicating that shuttles of this type may have once been used on ''Galactica'' herself. Also of note is the similar, perhaps "updated" version of an atmospheric shuttle analogous in form and function, used to land in [[Galleon Meadow]] on [[Kobol]]([[Home, Part 1]]).

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Craft (TOS)]]
[[Category:Colonial Military (TOS)]]
[[Category:Technology]]
[[Category:TOS]]

Raider (RDM)

2006-07-28T14:09:07Z

Gallion: /* Concept Drawings */

:''This article is about the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]] Raider. For other versions, see [[Cylon Raider]].''

{{Ship Data
| image= bsg-raider-A.jpg
| race= Cylon
| type= Military
| ftl= Yes
| crew= None (Shipboard AI)
| role= Space superiority fighter
| weapons= 2 [[KEW|Kinetic Energy Weapons]], missiles
| length= (approx) 8.94 meters
| height= (approx) 1.52 meters
| wingspan= (approx) 5.59 meters
}}
The '''Raider''' is the primary aerospace attack craft used by the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]].

The Raider is first encountered more than 40 years after the [[Cylon War]], when the Cylons launch their devastating [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|surprise attack]] on the [[Twelve Colonies]].

The Raider is initially thought to be wholly mechanical in design, with a high-level AI controlling it. However, following the recovery of a Raider forced down during a firefight and recovered by Lieutenant [[Kara Thrace]] ([[Act of Contrition]]), the new Raider is found to be, in fact, biomechanical in nature ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]), incorporating a number of large organs in its design, including an biomechanical brain.

Much like the [[Cylon agent]]s, the biomechanical Raider pilot's consciousness can be transferred into new "bodies" if it is destroyed. (Whether this process requires a nearby [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]] or [[Resurrection Ship]] for the transfer is not known.) While this death/rebirth process allows the Raider to "learn" from its mistakes and become a more efficient killing machine, the process can also cause Raiders to fight with deadly, almost-humanlike tactics ([[Scar]]).

Raider weapon configurations include:
* Conventional and/or nuclear missiles carried in internal wing bays ([[Miniseries]])
* Two [[Kinetic Energy Weapon]]s mounted under the leading edge of the wings

During the Cylon attack, the new Raider could transmit commands to any Colonial vessel utilizing the Command Navigation Program ([[CNP]]). The CNP was compromised prior to the attack, and provided a [[backdoor]] that allowed the Cylons to shut down Colonial vessels with the CNP, rendering the ship defenseless ([[Miniseries]]).

As with their predecessors in the Cylon War, Raiders also appear to use [[wireless]] transmissions directed at Colonial ships, especially battlestars, to attempt to crack, or infiltrate the ship's computer network. If the cracking is successful, a [[virus]] can be transmitted, which can severely damage or disable many battlestar systems ([[Valley of Darkness]]).

The Raider is equipped with a small-scale [[FTL]] drive system ([[Miniseries]]). Following tests on the Raider captured by ''Galactica'', this FTL system is found to be far more efficient in Jump calculations than Colonial FTL systems. The drive shows its accuracy when Lt. Thrace takes the Raider from a point somewhere near the vicinity of [[Kobol]] back to [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] in a single Jump ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]).

As with its nemesis, the [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]], the Raider is capable of atmospheric operations, which explains why it has retained an aerodynamic shape ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]).

==Note==
[[Image:Raidertos.jpg|thumb|right|A "piloted" Raider (or mock-up) seen in ''Galactica's'' [[Galactica Museum|museum]] [[Miniseries]]]]

*While the Raiders used in the [[Cylon War]] may have had one or more [[Cylon Centurion Model 0005|Centurions]] flying the craft, no evidence has yet aired of the existence of this Raider model used with a modern [[Cylon Centurion]] pilot.
*A older Raider, identical in outward appearance to the Raider of the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]], is seen briefly in the [[Galactica Museum]] ([[Miniseries]]). It's unknown of the internal configuration of this older fighter or the type of weapons used.
*Like the [[Raider (TOS)|Original Series' Raider]], the weapons fire of the Re-Imagined Series Cylon Raiders is white.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:RDM]]
[[Category:Technology]]

[[es:Raider Cylon]]
[[de:Zylonischer Jäger (RDM)]]

==Concept Drawings==

*These concept drawings are very close to the fully realized versions of what we have seen in the [[Re-imagined Series]]. However, There were, of course, many changes made and these drawings should not be considered completely canon.

<gallery>
Image:Brain1.jpg|''raider brain cavity''
Image:Brain3.jpg|''internal workings''
Image:Brain4.jpg|''front view''
Image:Brain 2.jpg|''starbuck in brain cavity''

</gallery>

Talk:Raider (RDM)/Archive 1

2006-07-28T14:02:15Z

Gallion: /* Concept drawings */

==New Article Structure==

I have edited this page only to include the information about the raider in the new series, moved all data from TOS raider to its own article and moved the video game raider to its own article under the video game ships category. I have put the main raider as the article and moved the "piloted" raider to the bottom as note, as it is not canon information.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 20:22, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

And can we get a new image of the raider, with it being in space, for the ship portal, and we can then put that picture as the main picture of the article, and move the one that is currently the main one now, in the article somewhere.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 20:25, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Concept drawings==
I have a question about the use of some of the concept drawings for the new raider. First of all, there are many concept drawings available here[http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/gallery.htm] at Galactica Station. I know that many of them are not related to the current raider. However, There are some really interesting pics of the brain and how it is connected to the ship, as well as a depiction of a Colonial pilot inside after the brain has been removed (much Like Kara Thrace had done). My question is, are we able to use these images in this article? I would like to see some imagery around the design of the raider and it's internal structure. What do people think of this? I'm not even sure if we can use these pics, but if they are original drawings for the series...wouldn't that fall under fair use?--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:03, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:While I agree the pics are very cool and give a great insight we have to remember that concept art is just that... Concept. Concept art does not always relate to the final product so isnt really [[canon]] in the RDM universe. Perhaps they could be added to the gallery provided a notice on the canonicity is provided alongside it on the image page? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:46, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:: I truly agree with the fact that they are not canon per-se, but under the special notice you had mentioned, I think it might be a nice minor addition. I'll wait a while before I do anything of course, just to see what people are thinking, and if people are in favour of adding them to the gallery with the afore mentioned canonicity note, then I'll go about getting it started.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:37, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:::Some of those concept art drawings don't even look like the final Raider design. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])

:::: Oh, This is very true, I would propose only to include the ones that reference the brain and the Colonial Pilot in said brain cavity. Specifically this one I guess: [http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/raiderintart40dv.htm]--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:51, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:::::Yeah, we could use the ones that are the concepts for the actual raiders used, including that one.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:42, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

::::::Ok, well I'll go for it and get it up and running, we'll try it out for a while at least.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:11, 28 July 2006 (CDT)
:::::::So, I did it...if its horrible, I'll totally change it (or anyone should change it if they want)..but what do you guys think? I'll add some more drawings that relate closely to the brain and internal workings of the final raider design if this is a good format.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:37, 28 July 2006 (CDT)
::::::::AAAARRRRRRRRGGGG! I'm not even sure if these are Chu's...I'm pretty sure..but there is no signature!! uh oh... ok...UPDATE: ok they are [[Ken Rabehl]]'s concept drawings..these ones are anyway.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:48, 28 July 2006 (CDT)

==Piloted Raiders==
Is there anything at all from the re-imagined series about a early piloted raider, or is this just speculation? --Glenmcbeth

:Well, in the Mini-series before they engage the NEW Cylon Raiders for the first time, the pilots are chattering over their radios and say that no one has seen the Cylons in 40 years, so they don't know how their ships will look different now--->one guy points out (accurately) that the basic design should be that of a 'flying wing'; so it's implied they were thinking of the old ones. That, and I think a model of one of the old ones was seen in the Galactica-musuem; anyway, when they see the NEW Raiders for the first time, a pilot reacts in shock that "no one's flying it!"; the "head" part was too small to have a Cylon Centurion sitting inside of it flying it; this would seem to imply that the OLD Raiders were exactly like TOS ones: with a Cylon flying them. ---Ricimer, 22, Sept, 2005

:: I don't know that that's enough to warrant mentioning that they were piloted by three Centurians and all the details that we have. I think it would be best to make "Cylong Raider (RDM)" nearly entirely about the autonomous Raiders we see so frequently in the series with perhaps a note in the Notes section mentioning that pilots expressed surprise that no one was piloting them and what their comments were, exactly, about the flying wing deal. Let the reader decide. I don't like displaying a picture at all. The museum was a nod to TOS, and I don't think it counts as precisely canon. Obviously, in the early stages of the first Cylon War, the Cylons were the same as built by the Colonials and were flying Colonial craft, but by the time it got to where they were working out of Basestars, I imagine they were manufacturing their own craft, too, so there's no reason to think that the craft the pilots were thinking of was Colonial in origin at all. I also dislike the mention of common tactics... That's never been mentioned on-screen in RDM at all, I don't think. --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:20, 19 January 2006 (EST)

==Split?==
This needs to be split into three articles - one for TOS, and one each for the piloted and autonomous RDM models. Anybody have ideas for article titles?

Additionally, should this be "Cylon Raider" or just "Raider"? We don't call them Colonial Vipers, after all. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:49, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:I agree that "Raider" should suffice. "Cylon Raider" might be necessary if we needed to distinguish it from a Colonial model. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:06, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:: Definately split into (TOS) and (RDM) name spaces. I think we could stick with the name Cylon Raider. I think they've called them that several times in the series and I take it to be the more "official" name (from the Colonial POV. Maybe the Cylons call them Daggits. Who knows?) --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:20, 19 January 2006 (EST)

i ahve deleted the tos cylon raider information off page and directed users to the main tos raider article. we should continue with this, and do the same with the video game raider.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 19:27, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:Is [[Cylon Raider]] to become a disambation page? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:36, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

No i have just moved it to a new name space to rdm, so we are still retaining it, but just moved it to a new name space--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 19:43, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:k. Tons of edits on pages that link to [[Cylon Raider]]. That's why I ask before I start going through the pages that have them. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:46, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

I think we need to fix this split: now there's no piloted Raider info at all. Yes, we know from the Miniseries that old Piloted Raiders look like TOS Raiders, and Ripper in the Miniseries seemed surprised that they ''were not'' piloted, positing that the old ones were. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:42, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Virus==
Kahran wrote:
:''The new Raider is also succeptable to the same type of system-crashing virus which it has been known to transmit itself. ("[[Flight of the Pheonix]]")''
Not correct. First of all, we've never actually seen a raider transmit a virus. In the miniseries, they exploited a back door in the CNP to shut down the fleet directly; in "Valley of Darkness" we saw a virus but for logical reasons, it could not possibly have originated from outside the ship; and in "Flight of the Phoenix" we again saw a backdoor being exploited, this time in the other direction. Secondly, it is completely unsurprising that a Cylon agent such as Caprica-Valerii would have knowledge of how to access such a backdoor in her own people's technology. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:37, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I'm questioning a part of the reasoning here. In the miniseries, the raiders exploit the CNP backdoors and command shutdown of Colonial systems. Yes; no "virus" is transmitted there. But in "Scattered" we hear Gaeta specifically discussing an infiltration attempt--

::Gaeta: "Here they come. Cylons are hacking our network. Attempting to access our gateway." 

:Later, ''Galactica'' contracts a virus. Since ''Galactica's'' systems were never networked prior and never have used the CNP (which, combined with Gaeta's information, confirms CNP is still not installed), a virus is most likely to have come from the outside, that some ship in the Cylon attack body was at work in cracking ''Galactica's'' computer network and infecting it a'la the tactics used in Cylon War I. This does NOT necessarily mean that the fighters did it (although screen shots show Gaeta's firewall ''fail'' moments before he disconnects it). The Centurions that board could have installed it, but we have no information to confirm this, nor does this make sense. Such an infection would only affect maybe one subsystem since the Centurions could not gain access to all primary, now-again isolated subsystems. They likely could infect only one, and that infection could not spread. Same would be true if a Cylon agent were to install a virus; the isolated subsystems would make it too impossible to infect all at once without attracting attention (Gaeta's and the rest of CIC, that is). The Cylon attack body is the likely cause of the virus, since it affects many subsystems that are normally isolated and they had the means to infect through their hacking. A virus isn't "transmitted," but installed once infiltration is successful. Kahran's wording is incorrect. The sentence should say: The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated (Flight of the Phoenix)"--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:07, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::I'll reply backwards, since your last point was the most relevant one - "The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated" is true, but it's also ''obvious'', and therefore not worth stating. In fact, there is no computer system for which that statement is ''not'' true.

::Second, as regarding the events of "Valley of Darkness": Having two computers networked is not sufficient to make them vulnerable to attack. In order to receive a "virus" or any other sort of malware from off-ship, one of the components must have had a connection to the outside world via some sort of RF ("wireless") frequency. Thus, of the four computers Gaeta networked, at least one must already have been vulnerable.

::However, Galactica's entire design ethos was explicitly meant to separate vulnerable functions. There is no conceivable reason that any of the four systems Gaeta connected (FTL, Navigation, Fire control, Damage control) would need access to a wireless tranceiver. Therefore, the only plausible source for the virus was from ''within'' the ship itself. This does not present much of a contradiction - the simple fact of networking those four systems together would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:58, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::That's a good point, and one I purposefully addressed indirectly in the [[Computers]] article. We have to strike it up to one of three issues: (1) A retcon issue; (2) the mainframe computer (which may handle communications) is the most resistant to infiltration since it must ALWAYS have wireless up and running for fighter chat (DRADIS is managed through the Nav computer), or (3) the comm system is NOT computer-based or operated, but a hardwire system that transmits its data in a manner which cannot infect the mainframe in some manner. When other computers are connected to it via Gaeta's gateway (which also exposes the computers to the hardwired comm system network), the Cylons infiltrate by hacking the exposed ''gateway'' Gaeta created, not the computers. Yes, normally the other computers DON'T need or have access to the each other. But the ''gateway'' created was vulnerable because it's the comm system that's likely used to create one for the networking of the computers. Once the gateway was up, all but the comm system was vulnerable for reasons below.

:::In fact, a part of "Flight of the Phoenix" bears this speculation out: Gaeta has wiped the hard drives of ALL computers while Valerii is working on her unique virus in her head for the Cylon fleet. She transmits it out, but on what? All computers are down. This suggests that the comm systems (connected through her arm from the mainframe, which suggests it and the comm system also have a connection), while monitored through the mainframe, are not entirely computer-based since no computer was up to aid Valerii in hacking the enemy network AND transmitting the virus directly. Gaeta notes the transmission, indicating that comm was still up although the computers are still under restoration. In short, Cylons have never been able to hack ''Galactica's'' mainframe or comm systems, but once that ad hoc gateway was up, the other computers were exposed and the enemy had what they needed to hack in and infect. This doesn't explain the logic bomb, which I think is bad writing: how would it spread over a non-networked series of computers? It would mean that each computer had a copy of the bomb. But then, how would it activate? The comm/mainframe cannot be hacked and so cannot send the "execute" command to the logic bombs on the other computers, right? I smell contrivance, but its the best sense I can make of it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::I like the "Gateway attack" scenario (limited window created by Gaeta's jury-rigging), but it seems like all of these scenarios are running under the assumption that the virus/logic bomb infected the system from the outside. That may be the case (and Flight of the Phoenix seemed to prove that it could be transmitted that way, at least to the Raiders), but isn't it possible for ''Galactica'''s systems to have been infected from the ''inside''? With several potential humano-cylons on the loose inside the fleet, it may turn out that some of the computer problems have been done as part of an "inside job". I have NOTHING to support that, but I just wanted to raise the possibility (if it hadn't already been mentioned). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:06, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::This is what I've been saying all along. Am I not speaking english? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:29, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Didn't see that little bit right there at the end... "would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect" or perhaps I read it as an external attacker. I'm guessing that possibility is generally being overlooked in favor of the more straightforward external network attack. I hope that this angle is explored more and not left to speculation, as I don't think that it can be definitely proven how the system was compromised. (Which is what you've been saying this whole time. At least the message has spread one person further.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:46, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::I noted the possibility of Cylon agent infiltration, but again this requires the agent to individually infect ALL computers, or place an infection that won't replicate / install itself until/unless computers were networked. That's a whole lot of "if's". It's not that an agent infected the computers isn't possible, but based on what we've seen, it's not probable. We don't know if Biers is off Galactica, but she likely is. We don't know what the remaining agents look like. We do know that that Valerii said what would happen with the infection that did occur. It's even possible that her Galactica counterpart infected systems before she shot Adama. But that conflicts with what Gaeta watched during the jump calcs in Scattered. I just want some source that gives credibility to the internal hypothesis. (See, SV--we sysops are all having a nice, friendly discussion... :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:33, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::A virus could have been planted (through a hardline, onboard the ship) into one of the four networked systems during Scattered, and then spread to the other three in short order. I think it's actually fairly likely that there's an unknown cylon agent on Galactica - probably somebody of the lower ranks who we haven't seen, or else C-Valerii would have identified him.

::::::::For my sake, could you please try and restate the points in your second post, the one immediately after my reply? I have the feeling you're trying to say something interesting, but your wording is too confusing for me to untangle. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:56, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::Sure.
::::::::::* Since ''something'' has to be able to send out or match up command recognition codes, the mainframe and comm system work together, although comm (likely not a computer per se) can work independently of any computer system (note Valerii transmitting the virus code to the Cylon fleet in "Phoenix" although ''Galactica's'' computers are down).
::::::::::* I suspect the mainframe is inherently resistant to infection, or isolated from infection despite its role with the comm system. However, the mainframe's ''gateway'', which forms a network if other computers are connected, is not resistant. This is what the Cylons will hack into since the comm system is always up and routes data from it to the mainframe and the gateway. From the gateway a virus enters the most vulnerable computer and copies itself into others. Once situated, it begins its work.
::::::::::* The mainframe (which, as Doral said, may barely deserve the name of "computer") is highly resistant to infection or infiltration. It can also create firewalls to protect itself (Gaeta did this). It's analogous to the Mac OS X computers versus Windows computers today--both do the same, but one is designed well enough not to have infiltration issues as severely as the other. But even the mainframe can be rooted if given time; the Cylon virus adapts and learns.
::::::::::* An internal attack by a Cylon agent is possible but not probable. For what we know, all computers are centrally located in CIC. An agent would have to sit and hack or insert code into each system manually. This would require physical access that only a few have (this adds fire to the Gaeta-is-a-Cylon argument).
::::::::::* Barring plot complication we haven't seen, we are led (and only have evidence aired so far) that the virus attack was external. Otherwise, despite the point that humano-Cylons like to play with their prey, we'd think that the Cylons would have hacked ''Galactica's'' computers and killed the ship by now. Centurions never visited the CIC, so they're out as infectors, unless there was a fiber optic conduit for one of the closed computers they could've used to do so as they marauded the ship.
::::::::::* The "logic bomb" concept was specious; it couldn't travel through to the other computers (no network), and the system failures throughout the ship suggest that the computers fully control ''Galactica's'' subsystems like life support. Of course, the computers probably never fully cleaned, which makes more sense for system failures. Isn't that a network? Doesn't work. By the same token, for Cylons to activate the bomb from their fighter armada implies that Gaeta's ad-hoc network is up again and allowing hack commands to enter ''Galactica.'' BIG, freight-train sized science gaffe for the sake of plot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:01, 4 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::: For the sake of speculation, I'm going to state it as a given that the systems are not networked in any traditional sense and that the FTL, Navigation, Fire control, and Damage control computers are infected, and the Nav computer actually does manage DRADIS. Isn't it possible for the Cylons to have taken into account the fact that the ad-hoc network would be disabled before the virus could complete it's run, and build in contingencies for such an event? The DRADIS by nature would require a transceiver of some form. Even if that receiver is not designed to process such information, it would theoretically be possible send some sort of recognizable signal through it to the Nav computer to act as a trigger. Beyond that, the damage control computer would, by necessity, be connected to every system on the ship to monitor for failure conditions. In addition, the other three computers should be able to detect and/or set error condition markers for the systems they monitor and control. While nowhere near an efficient or traditional mode of communication, it could serve in a limited sense. The Cylons would be aware of, if not intimately acquainted with the designs for all battlestars thanks to Number Six's infiltration of the Defense Mainframe. Am I the only one who sees this as plausible? [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::Triggering a virus through DRADIS is plausible if it's ''already there'', but planting one that way is not. It must have come in through a comm channel (as Spencerian argues) or from inside the ship (as I do). None of the system failures in Flight of the Phoenix require a network to be in place anyway - once the logic bomb had infected the four sub-systems, it would procede to sabotage them independantly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:22, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::: As I said, I was making the fact that the systems were already infected a given. I was simply trying to explain the aparent coordination of the systems going down and how the Cylons kicked it into high gear, so to speak. However, the thought now comes to mind that, aside from the modifications ot CNP, the DRADIS control software could have also been modified pre-infection to enable it's use as a backdoor. (I know, reaching, but it floated to the top of my brain, so I go there...) [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:35, 8 January 2006 (EST)

==Image Discussion==

Okay, I had changed the Raider (new) image to a more accurate image of the raider (of how it really is supposed to look) but Merv changed it back. Instead of changing it back (which would predictably lead him to do the opposite) I leave it as a subject of discussion. I think the other pic, or at least that type of pic, is better than the present one, since it is more representative of the new cylon architecture than the set model, and it is also in its natural habitat. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006
:Actually you did the right think by moving the discussion here. Well, it's not in it's "natural habitat" this is a wireframe picture of a Raider; the skin isn't very detailed and "metallic" but slate gray, and look, the eye isn't even colored in ''red''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:41, 21 March 2006 (CST)
::What about this one? It's complete, because its the model Zoic used in the end.
[[Image:CyRaider.jpg|thumb|]]
:::Well, I'll just ask again which everyone prefers, if no one answes I'll proceed to putting this pic and seeing how it decelops.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

::No, Sauron, you're still just using a ''model''; it's the default one that Zoic sticks in, but the coloring is all wrong; please don't jump ahead on this one and "if no one answers proceed to use it" (you probably meant this less abrasively than it sounds). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:23, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::I prefer the screen capture to the render. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:25, 22 March 2006 (CST)

::::Well, what I meant with my comment is that if no one answered in a while I would just assume they accepted it., and therefore I would place it. Though I know this is an actual finished model (we see them the same in many times), I shall find a screencap then. I just don't like for the "set" raider to be seen as the New raider, since it doesnt't have exactly the same design, it is noticeably more round and squat than it should be (it is also not as metallic as it should be). --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

:::It would appear that Sauron18 is advocating for a picture of the ''video game'' Raider. You have to understand, that video game rendering is ''kindergartener crayon-drawing quality'' compared to a professional film-quality rendering. Everything is going to appear drabber, edge-ier (because of the whole thing with facets and polygons), and be distorted at odd viewing angles. Does this denote the "true" look of the object? No. Does this mean there is a different version of the object? No. ''Star Wars'' suffers from this crazed, ignorant fanaticism wherein the video game models are scaled/modelled/depicted in such varying degrees of quality from the original model they are meant to represent (in order to get the game out in a hurry, and/or keep the gameplay efficient), that certain "challenged" individuals get all frothy-mouthed and claim the video game objects as different variants of the object. Soon, you've got fifty different TIE fighters in the SW Universe, all because the rendering of the panels is slightly different from game to game.

:::Big frakkin' deal. A TIE is a TIE is a TIE. Same here... a Raider is a Raider... is a Raider.

:::Now, pardon my rant, but it leads into... I don't consider video game depictions as "official canon". Peripheral, supplemental canon, or canon-taken-with-a-disclaimer, perhaps. With that said, I don't think a rendering from the video game should be used to be the "official representation" of an object like the Raider. The screen capture should be used, or, if you want it to look cleaner, the '''''official''''' for-screen Zoic model rendering should be used. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 09:14, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::::I don't think he means using a video game model but the Zoic CGI one. I'll see if I can find a good shot that shows it's shape well. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:31, 22 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Talos is right, I wasn't talking about the game one (don't know where you got that). I was talking about the Zoic model (the picture of which I posted). I too shall look for an on screen full appeareance. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

Raider (RDM)

2006-07-28T13:58:07Z

Gallion: /* Concept Drawings */

Talk:Raider (RDM)/Archive 1

2006-07-28T13:54:09Z

Gallion: /* Concept drawings */

==New Article Structure==

I have edited this page only to include the information about the raider in the new series, moved all data from TOS raider to its own article and moved the video game raider to its own article under the video game ships category. I have put the main raider as the article and moved the "piloted" raider to the bottom as note, as it is not canon information.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 20:22, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

And can we get a new image of the raider, with it being in space, for the ship portal, and we can then put that picture as the main picture of the article, and move the one that is currently the main one now, in the article somewhere.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 20:25, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Concept drawings==
I have a question about the use of some of the concept drawings for the new raider. First of all, there are many concept drawings available here[http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/gallery.htm] at Galactica Station. I know that many of them are not related to the current raider. However, There are some really interesting pics of the brain and how it is connected to the ship, as well as a depiction of a Colonial pilot inside after the brain has been removed (much Like Kara Thrace had done). My question is, are we able to use these images in this article? I would like to see some imagery around the design of the raider and it's internal structure. What do people think of this? I'm not even sure if we can use these pics, but if they are original drawings for the series...wouldn't that fall under fair use?--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:03, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:While I agree the pics are very cool and give a great insight we have to remember that concept art is just that... Concept. Concept art does not always relate to the final product so isnt really [[canon]] in the RDM universe. Perhaps they could be added to the gallery provided a notice on the canonicity is provided alongside it on the image page? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:46, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:: I truly agree with the fact that they are not canon per-se, but under the special notice you had mentioned, I think it might be a nice minor addition. I'll wait a while before I do anything of course, just to see what people are thinking, and if people are in favour of adding them to the gallery with the afore mentioned canonicity note, then I'll go about getting it started.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:37, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:::Some of those concept art drawings don't even look like the final Raider design. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])

:::: Oh, This is very true, I would propose only to include the ones that reference the brain and the Colonial Pilot in said brain cavity. Specifically this one I guess: [http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/raiderintart40dv.htm]--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:51, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:::::Yeah, we could use the ones that are the concepts for the actual raiders used, including that one.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:42, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

::::::Ok, well I'll go for it and get it up and running, we'll try it out for a while at least.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:11, 28 July 2006 (CDT)
:::::::So, I did it...if its horrible, I'll totally change it (or anyone should change it if they want)..but what do you guys think? I'll add some more drawings that relate closely to the brain and internal workings of the final raider design if this is a good format.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:37, 28 July 2006 (CDT)
::::::::AAAARRRRRRRRGGGG! I'm not even sure if these are Chu's...I'm pretty sure..but there is no signature!! uh oh... ok...UPDATE: ok they are Ken Rabehl's concept drawings..these ones are anyway.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:48, 28 July 2006 (CDT)

==Piloted Raiders==
Is there anything at all from the re-imagined series about a early piloted raider, or is this just speculation? --Glenmcbeth

:Well, in the Mini-series before they engage the NEW Cylon Raiders for the first time, the pilots are chattering over their radios and say that no one has seen the Cylons in 40 years, so they don't know how their ships will look different now--->one guy points out (accurately) that the basic design should be that of a 'flying wing'; so it's implied they were thinking of the old ones. That, and I think a model of one of the old ones was seen in the Galactica-musuem; anyway, when they see the NEW Raiders for the first time, a pilot reacts in shock that "no one's flying it!"; the "head" part was too small to have a Cylon Centurion sitting inside of it flying it; this would seem to imply that the OLD Raiders were exactly like TOS ones: with a Cylon flying them. ---Ricimer, 22, Sept, 2005

:: I don't know that that's enough to warrant mentioning that they were piloted by three Centurians and all the details that we have. I think it would be best to make "Cylong Raider (RDM)" nearly entirely about the autonomous Raiders we see so frequently in the series with perhaps a note in the Notes section mentioning that pilots expressed surprise that no one was piloting them and what their comments were, exactly, about the flying wing deal. Let the reader decide. I don't like displaying a picture at all. The museum was a nod to TOS, and I don't think it counts as precisely canon. Obviously, in the early stages of the first Cylon War, the Cylons were the same as built by the Colonials and were flying Colonial craft, but by the time it got to where they were working out of Basestars, I imagine they were manufacturing their own craft, too, so there's no reason to think that the craft the pilots were thinking of was Colonial in origin at all. I also dislike the mention of common tactics... That's never been mentioned on-screen in RDM at all, I don't think. --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:20, 19 January 2006 (EST)

==Split?==
This needs to be split into three articles - one for TOS, and one each for the piloted and autonomous RDM models. Anybody have ideas for article titles?

Additionally, should this be "Cylon Raider" or just "Raider"? We don't call them Colonial Vipers, after all. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:49, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:I agree that "Raider" should suffice. "Cylon Raider" might be necessary if we needed to distinguish it from a Colonial model. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:06, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:: Definately split into (TOS) and (RDM) name spaces. I think we could stick with the name Cylon Raider. I think they've called them that several times in the series and I take it to be the more "official" name (from the Colonial POV. Maybe the Cylons call them Daggits. Who knows?) --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:20, 19 January 2006 (EST)

i ahve deleted the tos cylon raider information off page and directed users to the main tos raider article. we should continue with this, and do the same with the video game raider.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 19:27, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:Is [[Cylon Raider]] to become a disambation page? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:36, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

No i have just moved it to a new name space to rdm, so we are still retaining it, but just moved it to a new name space--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 19:43, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:k. Tons of edits on pages that link to [[Cylon Raider]]. That's why I ask before I start going through the pages that have them. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:46, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

I think we need to fix this split: now there's no piloted Raider info at all. Yes, we know from the Miniseries that old Piloted Raiders look like TOS Raiders, and Ripper in the Miniseries seemed surprised that they ''were not'' piloted, positing that the old ones were. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:42, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Virus==
Kahran wrote:
:''The new Raider is also succeptable to the same type of system-crashing virus which it has been known to transmit itself. ("[[Flight of the Pheonix]]")''
Not correct. First of all, we've never actually seen a raider transmit a virus. In the miniseries, they exploited a back door in the CNP to shut down the fleet directly; in "Valley of Darkness" we saw a virus but for logical reasons, it could not possibly have originated from outside the ship; and in "Flight of the Phoenix" we again saw a backdoor being exploited, this time in the other direction. Secondly, it is completely unsurprising that a Cylon agent such as Caprica-Valerii would have knowledge of how to access such a backdoor in her own people's technology. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:37, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I'm questioning a part of the reasoning here. In the miniseries, the raiders exploit the CNP backdoors and command shutdown of Colonial systems. Yes; no "virus" is transmitted there. But in "Scattered" we hear Gaeta specifically discussing an infiltration attempt--

::Gaeta: "Here they come. Cylons are hacking our network. Attempting to access our gateway." 

:Later, ''Galactica'' contracts a virus. Since ''Galactica's'' systems were never networked prior and never have used the CNP (which, combined with Gaeta's information, confirms CNP is still not installed), a virus is most likely to have come from the outside, that some ship in the Cylon attack body was at work in cracking ''Galactica's'' computer network and infecting it a'la the tactics used in Cylon War I. This does NOT necessarily mean that the fighters did it (although screen shots show Gaeta's firewall ''fail'' moments before he disconnects it). The Centurions that board could have installed it, but we have no information to confirm this, nor does this make sense. Such an infection would only affect maybe one subsystem since the Centurions could not gain access to all primary, now-again isolated subsystems. They likely could infect only one, and that infection could not spread. Same would be true if a Cylon agent were to install a virus; the isolated subsystems would make it too impossible to infect all at once without attracting attention (Gaeta's and the rest of CIC, that is). The Cylon attack body is the likely cause of the virus, since it affects many subsystems that are normally isolated and they had the means to infect through their hacking. A virus isn't "transmitted," but installed once infiltration is successful. Kahran's wording is incorrect. The sentence should say: The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated (Flight of the Phoenix)"--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:07, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::I'll reply backwards, since your last point was the most relevant one - "The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated" is true, but it's also ''obvious'', and therefore not worth stating. In fact, there is no computer system for which that statement is ''not'' true.

::Second, as regarding the events of "Valley of Darkness": Having two computers networked is not sufficient to make them vulnerable to attack. In order to receive a "virus" or any other sort of malware from off-ship, one of the components must have had a connection to the outside world via some sort of RF ("wireless") frequency. Thus, of the four computers Gaeta networked, at least one must already have been vulnerable.

::However, Galactica's entire design ethos was explicitly meant to separate vulnerable functions. There is no conceivable reason that any of the four systems Gaeta connected (FTL, Navigation, Fire control, Damage control) would need access to a wireless tranceiver. Therefore, the only plausible source for the virus was from ''within'' the ship itself. This does not present much of a contradiction - the simple fact of networking those four systems together would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:58, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::That's a good point, and one I purposefully addressed indirectly in the [[Computers]] article. We have to strike it up to one of three issues: (1) A retcon issue; (2) the mainframe computer (which may handle communications) is the most resistant to infiltration since it must ALWAYS have wireless up and running for fighter chat (DRADIS is managed through the Nav computer), or (3) the comm system is NOT computer-based or operated, but a hardwire system that transmits its data in a manner which cannot infect the mainframe in some manner. When other computers are connected to it via Gaeta's gateway (which also exposes the computers to the hardwired comm system network), the Cylons infiltrate by hacking the exposed ''gateway'' Gaeta created, not the computers. Yes, normally the other computers DON'T need or have access to the each other. But the ''gateway'' created was vulnerable because it's the comm system that's likely used to create one for the networking of the computers. Once the gateway was up, all but the comm system was vulnerable for reasons below.

:::In fact, a part of "Flight of the Phoenix" bears this speculation out: Gaeta has wiped the hard drives of ALL computers while Valerii is working on her unique virus in her head for the Cylon fleet. She transmits it out, but on what? All computers are down. This suggests that the comm systems (connected through her arm from the mainframe, which suggests it and the comm system also have a connection), while monitored through the mainframe, are not entirely computer-based since no computer was up to aid Valerii in hacking the enemy network AND transmitting the virus directly. Gaeta notes the transmission, indicating that comm was still up although the computers are still under restoration. In short, Cylons have never been able to hack ''Galactica's'' mainframe or comm systems, but once that ad hoc gateway was up, the other computers were exposed and the enemy had what they needed to hack in and infect. This doesn't explain the logic bomb, which I think is bad writing: how would it spread over a non-networked series of computers? It would mean that each computer had a copy of the bomb. But then, how would it activate? The comm/mainframe cannot be hacked and so cannot send the "execute" command to the logic bombs on the other computers, right? I smell contrivance, but its the best sense I can make of it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::I like the "Gateway attack" scenario (limited window created by Gaeta's jury-rigging), but it seems like all of these scenarios are running under the assumption that the virus/logic bomb infected the system from the outside. That may be the case (and Flight of the Phoenix seemed to prove that it could be transmitted that way, at least to the Raiders), but isn't it possible for ''Galactica'''s systems to have been infected from the ''inside''? With several potential humano-cylons on the loose inside the fleet, it may turn out that some of the computer problems have been done as part of an "inside job". I have NOTHING to support that, but I just wanted to raise the possibility (if it hadn't already been mentioned). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:06, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::This is what I've been saying all along. Am I not speaking english? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:29, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Didn't see that little bit right there at the end... "would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect" or perhaps I read it as an external attacker. I'm guessing that possibility is generally being overlooked in favor of the more straightforward external network attack. I hope that this angle is explored more and not left to speculation, as I don't think that it can be definitely proven how the system was compromised. (Which is what you've been saying this whole time. At least the message has spread one person further.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:46, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::I noted the possibility of Cylon agent infiltration, but again this requires the agent to individually infect ALL computers, or place an infection that won't replicate / install itself until/unless computers were networked. That's a whole lot of "if's". It's not that an agent infected the computers isn't possible, but based on what we've seen, it's not probable. We don't know if Biers is off Galactica, but she likely is. We don't know what the remaining agents look like. We do know that that Valerii said what would happen with the infection that did occur. It's even possible that her Galactica counterpart infected systems before she shot Adama. But that conflicts with what Gaeta watched during the jump calcs in Scattered. I just want some source that gives credibility to the internal hypothesis. (See, SV--we sysops are all having a nice, friendly discussion... :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:33, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::A virus could have been planted (through a hardline, onboard the ship) into one of the four networked systems during Scattered, and then spread to the other three in short order. I think it's actually fairly likely that there's an unknown cylon agent on Galactica - probably somebody of the lower ranks who we haven't seen, or else C-Valerii would have identified him.

::::::::For my sake, could you please try and restate the points in your second post, the one immediately after my reply? I have the feeling you're trying to say something interesting, but your wording is too confusing for me to untangle. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:56, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::Sure.
::::::::::* Since ''something'' has to be able to send out or match up command recognition codes, the mainframe and comm system work together, although comm (likely not a computer per se) can work independently of any computer system (note Valerii transmitting the virus code to the Cylon fleet in "Phoenix" although ''Galactica's'' computers are down).
::::::::::* I suspect the mainframe is inherently resistant to infection, or isolated from infection despite its role with the comm system. However, the mainframe's ''gateway'', which forms a network if other computers are connected, is not resistant. This is what the Cylons will hack into since the comm system is always up and routes data from it to the mainframe and the gateway. From the gateway a virus enters the most vulnerable computer and copies itself into others. Once situated, it begins its work.
::::::::::* The mainframe (which, as Doral said, may barely deserve the name of "computer") is highly resistant to infection or infiltration. It can also create firewalls to protect itself (Gaeta did this). It's analogous to the Mac OS X computers versus Windows computers today--both do the same, but one is designed well enough not to have infiltration issues as severely as the other. But even the mainframe can be rooted if given time; the Cylon virus adapts and learns.
::::::::::* An internal attack by a Cylon agent is possible but not probable. For what we know, all computers are centrally located in CIC. An agent would have to sit and hack or insert code into each system manually. This would require physical access that only a few have (this adds fire to the Gaeta-is-a-Cylon argument).
::::::::::* Barring plot complication we haven't seen, we are led (and only have evidence aired so far) that the virus attack was external. Otherwise, despite the point that humano-Cylons like to play with their prey, we'd think that the Cylons would have hacked ''Galactica's'' computers and killed the ship by now. Centurions never visited the CIC, so they're out as infectors, unless there was a fiber optic conduit for one of the closed computers they could've used to do so as they marauded the ship.
::::::::::* The "logic bomb" concept was specious; it couldn't travel through to the other computers (no network), and the system failures throughout the ship suggest that the computers fully control ''Galactica's'' subsystems like life support. Of course, the computers probably never fully cleaned, which makes more sense for system failures. Isn't that a network? Doesn't work. By the same token, for Cylons to activate the bomb from their fighter armada implies that Gaeta's ad-hoc network is up again and allowing hack commands to enter ''Galactica.'' BIG, freight-train sized science gaffe for the sake of plot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:01, 4 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::: For the sake of speculation, I'm going to state it as a given that the systems are not networked in any traditional sense and that the FTL, Navigation, Fire control, and Damage control computers are infected, and the Nav computer actually does manage DRADIS. Isn't it possible for the Cylons to have taken into account the fact that the ad-hoc network would be disabled before the virus could complete it's run, and build in contingencies for such an event? The DRADIS by nature would require a transceiver of some form. Even if that receiver is not designed to process such information, it would theoretically be possible send some sort of recognizable signal through it to the Nav computer to act as a trigger. Beyond that, the damage control computer would, by necessity, be connected to every system on the ship to monitor for failure conditions. In addition, the other three computers should be able to detect and/or set error condition markers for the systems they monitor and control. While nowhere near an efficient or traditional mode of communication, it could serve in a limited sense. The Cylons would be aware of, if not intimately acquainted with the designs for all battlestars thanks to Number Six's infiltration of the Defense Mainframe. Am I the only one who sees this as plausible? [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::Triggering a virus through DRADIS is plausible if it's ''already there'', but planting one that way is not. It must have come in through a comm channel (as Spencerian argues) or from inside the ship (as I do). None of the system failures in Flight of the Phoenix require a network to be in place anyway - once the logic bomb had infected the four sub-systems, it would procede to sabotage them independantly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:22, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::: As I said, I was making the fact that the systems were already infected a given. I was simply trying to explain the aparent coordination of the systems going down and how the Cylons kicked it into high gear, so to speak. However, the thought now comes to mind that, aside from the modifications ot CNP, the DRADIS control software could have also been modified pre-infection to enable it's use as a backdoor. (I know, reaching, but it floated to the top of my brain, so I go there...) [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:35, 8 January 2006 (EST)

==Image Discussion==

Okay, I had changed the Raider (new) image to a more accurate image of the raider (of how it really is supposed to look) but Merv changed it back. Instead of changing it back (which would predictably lead him to do the opposite) I leave it as a subject of discussion. I think the other pic, or at least that type of pic, is better than the present one, since it is more representative of the new cylon architecture than the set model, and it is also in its natural habitat. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006
:Actually you did the right think by moving the discussion here. Well, it's not in it's "natural habitat" this is a wireframe picture of a Raider; the skin isn't very detailed and "metallic" but slate gray, and look, the eye isn't even colored in ''red''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:41, 21 March 2006 (CST)
::What about this one? It's complete, because its the model Zoic used in the end.
[[Image:CyRaider.jpg|thumb|]]
:::Well, I'll just ask again which everyone prefers, if no one answes I'll proceed to putting this pic and seeing how it decelops.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

::No, Sauron, you're still just using a ''model''; it's the default one that Zoic sticks in, but the coloring is all wrong; please don't jump ahead on this one and "if no one answers proceed to use it" (you probably meant this less abrasively than it sounds). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:23, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::I prefer the screen capture to the render. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:25, 22 March 2006 (CST)

::::Well, what I meant with my comment is that if no one answered in a while I would just assume they accepted it., and therefore I would place it. Though I know this is an actual finished model (we see them the same in many times), I shall find a screencap then. I just don't like for the "set" raider to be seen as the New raider, since it doesnt't have exactly the same design, it is noticeably more round and squat than it should be (it is also not as metallic as it should be). --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

:::It would appear that Sauron18 is advocating for a picture of the ''video game'' Raider. You have to understand, that video game rendering is ''kindergartener crayon-drawing quality'' compared to a professional film-quality rendering. Everything is going to appear drabber, edge-ier (because of the whole thing with facets and polygons), and be distorted at odd viewing angles. Does this denote the "true" look of the object? No. Does this mean there is a different version of the object? No. ''Star Wars'' suffers from this crazed, ignorant fanaticism wherein the video game models are scaled/modelled/depicted in such varying degrees of quality from the original model they are meant to represent (in order to get the game out in a hurry, and/or keep the gameplay efficient), that certain "challenged" individuals get all frothy-mouthed and claim the video game objects as different variants of the object. Soon, you've got fifty different TIE fighters in the SW Universe, all because the rendering of the panels is slightly different from game to game.

:::Big frakkin' deal. A TIE is a TIE is a TIE. Same here... a Raider is a Raider... is a Raider.

:::Now, pardon my rant, but it leads into... I don't consider video game depictions as "official canon". Peripheral, supplemental canon, or canon-taken-with-a-disclaimer, perhaps. With that said, I don't think a rendering from the video game should be used to be the "official representation" of an object like the Raider. The screen capture should be used, or, if you want it to look cleaner, the '''''official''''' for-screen Zoic model rendering should be used. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 09:14, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::::I don't think he means using a video game model but the Zoic CGI one. I'll see if I can find a good shot that shows it's shape well. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:31, 22 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Talos is right, I wasn't talking about the game one (don't know where you got that). I was talking about the Zoic model (the picture of which I posted). I too shall look for an on screen full appeareance. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

Talk:Raider (RDM)/Archive 1

2006-07-28T13:48:07Z

Gallion: /* Concept drawings */

==New Article Structure==

I have edited this page only to include the information about the raider in the new series, moved all data from TOS raider to its own article and moved the video game raider to its own article under the video game ships category. I have put the main raider as the article and moved the "piloted" raider to the bottom as note, as it is not canon information.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 20:22, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

And can we get a new image of the raider, with it being in space, for the ship portal, and we can then put that picture as the main picture of the article, and move the one that is currently the main one now, in the article somewhere.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 20:25, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Concept drawings==
I have a question about the use of some of the concept drawings for the new raider. First of all, there are many concept drawings available here[http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/gallery.htm] at Galactica Station. I know that many of them are not related to the current raider. However, There are some really interesting pics of the brain and how it is connected to the ship, as well as a depiction of a Colonial pilot inside after the brain has been removed (much Like Kara Thrace had done). My question is, are we able to use these images in this article? I would like to see some imagery around the design of the raider and it's internal structure. What do people think of this? I'm not even sure if we can use these pics, but if they are original drawings for the series...wouldn't that fall under fair use?--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:03, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:While I agree the pics are very cool and give a great insight we have to remember that concept art is just that... Concept. Concept art does not always relate to the final product so isnt really [[canon]] in the RDM universe. Perhaps they could be added to the gallery provided a notice on the canonicity is provided alongside it on the image page? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:46, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:: I truly agree with the fact that they are not canon per-se, but under the special notice you had mentioned, I think it might be a nice minor addition. I'll wait a while before I do anything of course, just to see what people are thinking, and if people are in favour of adding them to the gallery with the afore mentioned canonicity note, then I'll go about getting it started.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:37, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:::Some of those concept art drawings don't even look like the final Raider design. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])

:::: Oh, This is very true, I would propose only to include the ones that reference the brain and the Colonial Pilot in said brain cavity. Specifically this one I guess: [http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/raiderintart40dv.htm]--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:51, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:::::Yeah, we could use the ones that are the concepts for the actual raiders used, including that one.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:42, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

::::::Ok, well I'll go for it and get it up and running, we'll try it out for a while at least.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:11, 28 July 2006 (CDT)
:::::::So, I did it...if its horrible, I'll totally change it (or anyone should change it if they want)..but what do you guys think? I'll add some more drawings that relate closely to the brain and internal workings of the final raider design if this is a good format.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:37, 28 July 2006 (CDT)
::::::::AAAARRRRRRRRGGGG! I'm not even sure if these are Chu's...I'm pretty sure..but there is no signature!! uh oh... ok...UPDATE: ok they are Ken Rabehi's concept drawings..these ones are anyway.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:48, 28 July 2006 (CDT)

==Piloted Raiders==
Is there anything at all from the re-imagined series about a early piloted raider, or is this just speculation? --Glenmcbeth

:Well, in the Mini-series before they engage the NEW Cylon Raiders for the first time, the pilots are chattering over their radios and say that no one has seen the Cylons in 40 years, so they don't know how their ships will look different now--->one guy points out (accurately) that the basic design should be that of a 'flying wing'; so it's implied they were thinking of the old ones. That, and I think a model of one of the old ones was seen in the Galactica-musuem; anyway, when they see the NEW Raiders for the first time, a pilot reacts in shock that "no one's flying it!"; the "head" part was too small to have a Cylon Centurion sitting inside of it flying it; this would seem to imply that the OLD Raiders were exactly like TOS ones: with a Cylon flying them. ---Ricimer, 22, Sept, 2005

:: I don't know that that's enough to warrant mentioning that they were piloted by three Centurians and all the details that we have. I think it would be best to make "Cylong Raider (RDM)" nearly entirely about the autonomous Raiders we see so frequently in the series with perhaps a note in the Notes section mentioning that pilots expressed surprise that no one was piloting them and what their comments were, exactly, about the flying wing deal. Let the reader decide. I don't like displaying a picture at all. The museum was a nod to TOS, and I don't think it counts as precisely canon. Obviously, in the early stages of the first Cylon War, the Cylons were the same as built by the Colonials and were flying Colonial craft, but by the time it got to where they were working out of Basestars, I imagine they were manufacturing their own craft, too, so there's no reason to think that the craft the pilots were thinking of was Colonial in origin at all. I also dislike the mention of common tactics... That's never been mentioned on-screen in RDM at all, I don't think. --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:20, 19 January 2006 (EST)

==Split?==
This needs to be split into three articles - one for TOS, and one each for the piloted and autonomous RDM models. Anybody have ideas for article titles?

Additionally, should this be "Cylon Raider" or just "Raider"? We don't call them Colonial Vipers, after all. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:49, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:I agree that "Raider" should suffice. "Cylon Raider" might be necessary if we needed to distinguish it from a Colonial model. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:06, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:: Definately split into (TOS) and (RDM) name spaces. I think we could stick with the name Cylon Raider. I think they've called them that several times in the series and I take it to be the more "official" name (from the Colonial POV. Maybe the Cylons call them Daggits. Who knows?) --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:20, 19 January 2006 (EST)

i ahve deleted the tos cylon raider information off page and directed users to the main tos raider article. we should continue with this, and do the same with the video game raider.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 19:27, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:Is [[Cylon Raider]] to become a disambation page? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:36, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

No i have just moved it to a new name space to rdm, so we are still retaining it, but just moved it to a new name space--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 19:43, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:k. Tons of edits on pages that link to [[Cylon Raider]]. That's why I ask before I start going through the pages that have them. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:46, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

I think we need to fix this split: now there's no piloted Raider info at all. Yes, we know from the Miniseries that old Piloted Raiders look like TOS Raiders, and Ripper in the Miniseries seemed surprised that they ''were not'' piloted, positing that the old ones were. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:42, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Virus==
Kahran wrote:
:''The new Raider is also succeptable to the same type of system-crashing virus which it has been known to transmit itself. ("[[Flight of the Pheonix]]")''
Not correct. First of all, we've never actually seen a raider transmit a virus. In the miniseries, they exploited a back door in the CNP to shut down the fleet directly; in "Valley of Darkness" we saw a virus but for logical reasons, it could not possibly have originated from outside the ship; and in "Flight of the Phoenix" we again saw a backdoor being exploited, this time in the other direction. Secondly, it is completely unsurprising that a Cylon agent such as Caprica-Valerii would have knowledge of how to access such a backdoor in her own people's technology. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:37, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I'm questioning a part of the reasoning here. In the miniseries, the raiders exploit the CNP backdoors and command shutdown of Colonial systems. Yes; no "virus" is transmitted there. But in "Scattered" we hear Gaeta specifically discussing an infiltration attempt--

::Gaeta: "Here they come. Cylons are hacking our network. Attempting to access our gateway." 

:Later, ''Galactica'' contracts a virus. Since ''Galactica's'' systems were never networked prior and never have used the CNP (which, combined with Gaeta's information, confirms CNP is still not installed), a virus is most likely to have come from the outside, that some ship in the Cylon attack body was at work in cracking ''Galactica's'' computer network and infecting it a'la the tactics used in Cylon War I. This does NOT necessarily mean that the fighters did it (although screen shots show Gaeta's firewall ''fail'' moments before he disconnects it). The Centurions that board could have installed it, but we have no information to confirm this, nor does this make sense. Such an infection would only affect maybe one subsystem since the Centurions could not gain access to all primary, now-again isolated subsystems. They likely could infect only one, and that infection could not spread. Same would be true if a Cylon agent were to install a virus; the isolated subsystems would make it too impossible to infect all at once without attracting attention (Gaeta's and the rest of CIC, that is). The Cylon attack body is the likely cause of the virus, since it affects many subsystems that are normally isolated and they had the means to infect through their hacking. A virus isn't "transmitted," but installed once infiltration is successful. Kahran's wording is incorrect. The sentence should say: The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated (Flight of the Phoenix)"--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:07, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::I'll reply backwards, since your last point was the most relevant one - "The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated" is true, but it's also ''obvious'', and therefore not worth stating. In fact, there is no computer system for which that statement is ''not'' true.

::Second, as regarding the events of "Valley of Darkness": Having two computers networked is not sufficient to make them vulnerable to attack. In order to receive a "virus" or any other sort of malware from off-ship, one of the components must have had a connection to the outside world via some sort of RF ("wireless") frequency. Thus, of the four computers Gaeta networked, at least one must already have been vulnerable.

::However, Galactica's entire design ethos was explicitly meant to separate vulnerable functions. There is no conceivable reason that any of the four systems Gaeta connected (FTL, Navigation, Fire control, Damage control) would need access to a wireless tranceiver. Therefore, the only plausible source for the virus was from ''within'' the ship itself. This does not present much of a contradiction - the simple fact of networking those four systems together would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:58, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::That's a good point, and one I purposefully addressed indirectly in the [[Computers]] article. We have to strike it up to one of three issues: (1) A retcon issue; (2) the mainframe computer (which may handle communications) is the most resistant to infiltration since it must ALWAYS have wireless up and running for fighter chat (DRADIS is managed through the Nav computer), or (3) the comm system is NOT computer-based or operated, but a hardwire system that transmits its data in a manner which cannot infect the mainframe in some manner. When other computers are connected to it via Gaeta's gateway (which also exposes the computers to the hardwired comm system network), the Cylons infiltrate by hacking the exposed ''gateway'' Gaeta created, not the computers. Yes, normally the other computers DON'T need or have access to the each other. But the ''gateway'' created was vulnerable because it's the comm system that's likely used to create one for the networking of the computers. Once the gateway was up, all but the comm system was vulnerable for reasons below.

:::In fact, a part of "Flight of the Phoenix" bears this speculation out: Gaeta has wiped the hard drives of ALL computers while Valerii is working on her unique virus in her head for the Cylon fleet. She transmits it out, but on what? All computers are down. This suggests that the comm systems (connected through her arm from the mainframe, which suggests it and the comm system also have a connection), while monitored through the mainframe, are not entirely computer-based since no computer was up to aid Valerii in hacking the enemy network AND transmitting the virus directly. Gaeta notes the transmission, indicating that comm was still up although the computers are still under restoration. In short, Cylons have never been able to hack ''Galactica's'' mainframe or comm systems, but once that ad hoc gateway was up, the other computers were exposed and the enemy had what they needed to hack in and infect. This doesn't explain the logic bomb, which I think is bad writing: how would it spread over a non-networked series of computers? It would mean that each computer had a copy of the bomb. But then, how would it activate? The comm/mainframe cannot be hacked and so cannot send the "execute" command to the logic bombs on the other computers, right? I smell contrivance, but its the best sense I can make of it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::I like the "Gateway attack" scenario (limited window created by Gaeta's jury-rigging), but it seems like all of these scenarios are running under the assumption that the virus/logic bomb infected the system from the outside. That may be the case (and Flight of the Phoenix seemed to prove that it could be transmitted that way, at least to the Raiders), but isn't it possible for ''Galactica'''s systems to have been infected from the ''inside''? With several potential humano-cylons on the loose inside the fleet, it may turn out that some of the computer problems have been done as part of an "inside job". I have NOTHING to support that, but I just wanted to raise the possibility (if it hadn't already been mentioned). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:06, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::This is what I've been saying all along. Am I not speaking english? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:29, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Didn't see that little bit right there at the end... "would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect" or perhaps I read it as an external attacker. I'm guessing that possibility is generally being overlooked in favor of the more straightforward external network attack. I hope that this angle is explored more and not left to speculation, as I don't think that it can be definitely proven how the system was compromised. (Which is what you've been saying this whole time. At least the message has spread one person further.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:46, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::I noted the possibility of Cylon agent infiltration, but again this requires the agent to individually infect ALL computers, or place an infection that won't replicate / install itself until/unless computers were networked. That's a whole lot of "if's". It's not that an agent infected the computers isn't possible, but based on what we've seen, it's not probable. We don't know if Biers is off Galactica, but she likely is. We don't know what the remaining agents look like. We do know that that Valerii said what would happen with the infection that did occur. It's even possible that her Galactica counterpart infected systems before she shot Adama. But that conflicts with what Gaeta watched during the jump calcs in Scattered. I just want some source that gives credibility to the internal hypothesis. (See, SV--we sysops are all having a nice, friendly discussion... :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:33, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::A virus could have been planted (through a hardline, onboard the ship) into one of the four networked systems during Scattered, and then spread to the other three in short order. I think it's actually fairly likely that there's an unknown cylon agent on Galactica - probably somebody of the lower ranks who we haven't seen, or else C-Valerii would have identified him.

::::::::For my sake, could you please try and restate the points in your second post, the one immediately after my reply? I have the feeling you're trying to say something interesting, but your wording is too confusing for me to untangle. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:56, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::Sure.
::::::::::* Since ''something'' has to be able to send out or match up command recognition codes, the mainframe and comm system work together, although comm (likely not a computer per se) can work independently of any computer system (note Valerii transmitting the virus code to the Cylon fleet in "Phoenix" although ''Galactica's'' computers are down).
::::::::::* I suspect the mainframe is inherently resistant to infection, or isolated from infection despite its role with the comm system. However, the mainframe's ''gateway'', which forms a network if other computers are connected, is not resistant. This is what the Cylons will hack into since the comm system is always up and routes data from it to the mainframe and the gateway. From the gateway a virus enters the most vulnerable computer and copies itself into others. Once situated, it begins its work.
::::::::::* The mainframe (which, as Doral said, may barely deserve the name of "computer") is highly resistant to infection or infiltration. It can also create firewalls to protect itself (Gaeta did this). It's analogous to the Mac OS X computers versus Windows computers today--both do the same, but one is designed well enough not to have infiltration issues as severely as the other. But even the mainframe can be rooted if given time; the Cylon virus adapts and learns.
::::::::::* An internal attack by a Cylon agent is possible but not probable. For what we know, all computers are centrally located in CIC. An agent would have to sit and hack or insert code into each system manually. This would require physical access that only a few have (this adds fire to the Gaeta-is-a-Cylon argument).
::::::::::* Barring plot complication we haven't seen, we are led (and only have evidence aired so far) that the virus attack was external. Otherwise, despite the point that humano-Cylons like to play with their prey, we'd think that the Cylons would have hacked ''Galactica's'' computers and killed the ship by now. Centurions never visited the CIC, so they're out as infectors, unless there was a fiber optic conduit for one of the closed computers they could've used to do so as they marauded the ship.
::::::::::* The "logic bomb" concept was specious; it couldn't travel through to the other computers (no network), and the system failures throughout the ship suggest that the computers fully control ''Galactica's'' subsystems like life support. Of course, the computers probably never fully cleaned, which makes more sense for system failures. Isn't that a network? Doesn't work. By the same token, for Cylons to activate the bomb from their fighter armada implies that Gaeta's ad-hoc network is up again and allowing hack commands to enter ''Galactica.'' BIG, freight-train sized science gaffe for the sake of plot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:01, 4 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::: For the sake of speculation, I'm going to state it as a given that the systems are not networked in any traditional sense and that the FTL, Navigation, Fire control, and Damage control computers are infected, and the Nav computer actually does manage DRADIS. Isn't it possible for the Cylons to have taken into account the fact that the ad-hoc network would be disabled before the virus could complete it's run, and build in contingencies for such an event? The DRADIS by nature would require a transceiver of some form. Even if that receiver is not designed to process such information, it would theoretically be possible send some sort of recognizable signal through it to the Nav computer to act as a trigger. Beyond that, the damage control computer would, by necessity, be connected to every system on the ship to monitor for failure conditions. In addition, the other three computers should be able to detect and/or set error condition markers for the systems they monitor and control. While nowhere near an efficient or traditional mode of communication, it could serve in a limited sense. The Cylons would be aware of, if not intimately acquainted with the designs for all battlestars thanks to Number Six's infiltration of the Defense Mainframe. Am I the only one who sees this as plausible? [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::Triggering a virus through DRADIS is plausible if it's ''already there'', but planting one that way is not. It must have come in through a comm channel (as Spencerian argues) or from inside the ship (as I do). None of the system failures in Flight of the Phoenix require a network to be in place anyway - once the logic bomb had infected the four sub-systems, it would procede to sabotage them independantly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:22, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::: As I said, I was making the fact that the systems were already infected a given. I was simply trying to explain the aparent coordination of the systems going down and how the Cylons kicked it into high gear, so to speak. However, the thought now comes to mind that, aside from the modifications ot CNP, the DRADIS control software could have also been modified pre-infection to enable it's use as a backdoor. (I know, reaching, but it floated to the top of my brain, so I go there...) [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:35, 8 January 2006 (EST)

==Image Discussion==

Okay, I had changed the Raider (new) image to a more accurate image of the raider (of how it really is supposed to look) but Merv changed it back. Instead of changing it back (which would predictably lead him to do the opposite) I leave it as a subject of discussion. I think the other pic, or at least that type of pic, is better than the present one, since it is more representative of the new cylon architecture than the set model, and it is also in its natural habitat. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006
:Actually you did the right think by moving the discussion here. Well, it's not in it's "natural habitat" this is a wireframe picture of a Raider; the skin isn't very detailed and "metallic" but slate gray, and look, the eye isn't even colored in ''red''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:41, 21 March 2006 (CST)
::What about this one? It's complete, because its the model Zoic used in the end.
[[Image:CyRaider.jpg|thumb|]]
:::Well, I'll just ask again which everyone prefers, if no one answes I'll proceed to putting this pic and seeing how it decelops.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

::No, Sauron, you're still just using a ''model''; it's the default one that Zoic sticks in, but the coloring is all wrong; please don't jump ahead on this one and "if no one answers proceed to use it" (you probably meant this less abrasively than it sounds). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:23, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::I prefer the screen capture to the render. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:25, 22 March 2006 (CST)

::::Well, what I meant with my comment is that if no one answered in a while I would just assume they accepted it., and therefore I would place it. Though I know this is an actual finished model (we see them the same in many times), I shall find a screencap then. I just don't like for the "set" raider to be seen as the New raider, since it doesnt't have exactly the same design, it is noticeably more round and squat than it should be (it is also not as metallic as it should be). --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

:::It would appear that Sauron18 is advocating for a picture of the ''video game'' Raider. You have to understand, that video game rendering is ''kindergartener crayon-drawing quality'' compared to a professional film-quality rendering. Everything is going to appear drabber, edge-ier (because of the whole thing with facets and polygons), and be distorted at odd viewing angles. Does this denote the "true" look of the object? No. Does this mean there is a different version of the object? No. ''Star Wars'' suffers from this crazed, ignorant fanaticism wherein the video game models are scaled/modelled/depicted in such varying degrees of quality from the original model they are meant to represent (in order to get the game out in a hurry, and/or keep the gameplay efficient), that certain "challenged" individuals get all frothy-mouthed and claim the video game objects as different variants of the object. Soon, you've got fifty different TIE fighters in the SW Universe, all because the rendering of the panels is slightly different from game to game.

:::Big frakkin' deal. A TIE is a TIE is a TIE. Same here... a Raider is a Raider... is a Raider.

:::Now, pardon my rant, but it leads into... I don't consider video game depictions as "official canon". Peripheral, supplemental canon, or canon-taken-with-a-disclaimer, perhaps. With that said, I don't think a rendering from the video game should be used to be the "official representation" of an object like the Raider. The screen capture should be used, or, if you want it to look cleaner, the '''''official''''' for-screen Zoic model rendering should be used. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 09:14, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::::I don't think he means using a video game model but the Zoic CGI one. I'll see if I can find a good shot that shows it's shape well. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:31, 22 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Talos is right, I wasn't talking about the game one (don't know where you got that). I was talking about the Zoic model (the picture of which I posted). I too shall look for an on screen full appeareance. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

Talk:Raider (RDM)/Archive 1

2006-07-28T13:43:12Z

Gallion: /* Concept drawings */

==New Article Structure==

I have edited this page only to include the information about the raider in the new series, moved all data from TOS raider to its own article and moved the video game raider to its own article under the video game ships category. I have put the main raider as the article and moved the "piloted" raider to the bottom as note, as it is not canon information.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 20:22, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

And can we get a new image of the raider, with it being in space, for the ship portal, and we can then put that picture as the main picture of the article, and move the one that is currently the main one now, in the article somewhere.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 20:25, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Concept drawings==
I have a question about the use of some of the concept drawings for the new raider. First of all, there are many concept drawings available here[http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/gallery.htm] at Galactica Station. I know that many of them are not related to the current raider. However, There are some really interesting pics of the brain and how it is connected to the ship, as well as a depiction of a Colonial pilot inside after the brain has been removed (much Like Kara Thrace had done). My question is, are we able to use these images in this article? I would like to see some imagery around the design of the raider and it's internal structure. What do people think of this? I'm not even sure if we can use these pics, but if they are original drawings for the series...wouldn't that fall under fair use?--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:03, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:While I agree the pics are very cool and give a great insight we have to remember that concept art is just that... Concept. Concept art does not always relate to the final product so isnt really [[canon]] in the RDM universe. Perhaps they could be added to the gallery provided a notice on the canonicity is provided alongside it on the image page? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:46, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:: I truly agree with the fact that they are not canon per-se, but under the special notice you had mentioned, I think it might be a nice minor addition. I'll wait a while before I do anything of course, just to see what people are thinking, and if people are in favour of adding them to the gallery with the afore mentioned canonicity note, then I'll go about getting it started.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:37, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:::Some of those concept art drawings don't even look like the final Raider design. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])

:::: Oh, This is very true, I would propose only to include the ones that reference the brain and the Colonial Pilot in said brain cavity. Specifically this one I guess: [http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/raiderintart40dv.htm]--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:51, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:::::Yeah, we could use the ones that are the concepts for the actual raiders used, including that one.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:42, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

::::::Ok, well I'll go for it and get it up and running, we'll try it out for a while at least.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:11, 28 July 2006 (CDT)
:::::::So, I did it...if its horrible, I'll totally change it (or anyone should change it if they want)..but what do you guys think? I'll add some more drawings that relate closely to the brain and internal workings of the final raider design if this is a good format.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:37, 28 July 2006 (CDT)
::::::::AAAARRRRRRRRGGGG! I'm not even sure if these are Chu's...I'm pretty sure..but there is no signature!! uh oh...

==Piloted Raiders==
Is there anything at all from the re-imagined series about a early piloted raider, or is this just speculation? --Glenmcbeth

:Well, in the Mini-series before they engage the NEW Cylon Raiders for the first time, the pilots are chattering over their radios and say that no one has seen the Cylons in 40 years, so they don't know how their ships will look different now--->one guy points out (accurately) that the basic design should be that of a 'flying wing'; so it's implied they were thinking of the old ones. That, and I think a model of one of the old ones was seen in the Galactica-musuem; anyway, when they see the NEW Raiders for the first time, a pilot reacts in shock that "no one's flying it!"; the "head" part was too small to have a Cylon Centurion sitting inside of it flying it; this would seem to imply that the OLD Raiders were exactly like TOS ones: with a Cylon flying them. ---Ricimer, 22, Sept, 2005

:: I don't know that that's enough to warrant mentioning that they were piloted by three Centurians and all the details that we have. I think it would be best to make "Cylong Raider (RDM)" nearly entirely about the autonomous Raiders we see so frequently in the series with perhaps a note in the Notes section mentioning that pilots expressed surprise that no one was piloting them and what their comments were, exactly, about the flying wing deal. Let the reader decide. I don't like displaying a picture at all. The museum was a nod to TOS, and I don't think it counts as precisely canon. Obviously, in the early stages of the first Cylon War, the Cylons were the same as built by the Colonials and were flying Colonial craft, but by the time it got to where they were working out of Basestars, I imagine they were manufacturing their own craft, too, so there's no reason to think that the craft the pilots were thinking of was Colonial in origin at all. I also dislike the mention of common tactics... That's never been mentioned on-screen in RDM at all, I don't think. --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:20, 19 January 2006 (EST)

==Split?==
This needs to be split into three articles - one for TOS, and one each for the piloted and autonomous RDM models. Anybody have ideas for article titles?

Additionally, should this be "Cylon Raider" or just "Raider"? We don't call them Colonial Vipers, after all. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:49, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:I agree that "Raider" should suffice. "Cylon Raider" might be necessary if we needed to distinguish it from a Colonial model. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:06, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:: Definately split into (TOS) and (RDM) name spaces. I think we could stick with the name Cylon Raider. I think they've called them that several times in the series and I take it to be the more "official" name (from the Colonial POV. Maybe the Cylons call them Daggits. Who knows?) --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:20, 19 January 2006 (EST)

i ahve deleted the tos cylon raider information off page and directed users to the main tos raider article. we should continue with this, and do the same with the video game raider.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 19:27, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:Is [[Cylon Raider]] to become a disambation page? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:36, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

No i have just moved it to a new name space to rdm, so we are still retaining it, but just moved it to a new name space--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 19:43, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:k. Tons of edits on pages that link to [[Cylon Raider]]. That's why I ask before I start going through the pages that have them. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:46, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

I think we need to fix this split: now there's no piloted Raider info at all. Yes, we know from the Miniseries that old Piloted Raiders look like TOS Raiders, and Ripper in the Miniseries seemed surprised that they ''were not'' piloted, positing that the old ones were. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:42, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Virus==
Kahran wrote:
:''The new Raider is also succeptable to the same type of system-crashing virus which it has been known to transmit itself. ("[[Flight of the Pheonix]]")''
Not correct. First of all, we've never actually seen a raider transmit a virus. In the miniseries, they exploited a back door in the CNP to shut down the fleet directly; in "Valley of Darkness" we saw a virus but for logical reasons, it could not possibly have originated from outside the ship; and in "Flight of the Phoenix" we again saw a backdoor being exploited, this time in the other direction. Secondly, it is completely unsurprising that a Cylon agent such as Caprica-Valerii would have knowledge of how to access such a backdoor in her own people's technology. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:37, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I'm questioning a part of the reasoning here. In the miniseries, the raiders exploit the CNP backdoors and command shutdown of Colonial systems. Yes; no "virus" is transmitted there. But in "Scattered" we hear Gaeta specifically discussing an infiltration attempt--

::Gaeta: "Here they come. Cylons are hacking our network. Attempting to access our gateway." 

:Later, ''Galactica'' contracts a virus. Since ''Galactica's'' systems were never networked prior and never have used the CNP (which, combined with Gaeta's information, confirms CNP is still not installed), a virus is most likely to have come from the outside, that some ship in the Cylon attack body was at work in cracking ''Galactica's'' computer network and infecting it a'la the tactics used in Cylon War I. This does NOT necessarily mean that the fighters did it (although screen shots show Gaeta's firewall ''fail'' moments before he disconnects it). The Centurions that board could have installed it, but we have no information to confirm this, nor does this make sense. Such an infection would only affect maybe one subsystem since the Centurions could not gain access to all primary, now-again isolated subsystems. They likely could infect only one, and that infection could not spread. Same would be true if a Cylon agent were to install a virus; the isolated subsystems would make it too impossible to infect all at once without attracting attention (Gaeta's and the rest of CIC, that is). The Cylon attack body is the likely cause of the virus, since it affects many subsystems that are normally isolated and they had the means to infect through their hacking. A virus isn't "transmitted," but installed once infiltration is successful. Kahran's wording is incorrect. The sentence should say: The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated (Flight of the Phoenix)"--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:07, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::I'll reply backwards, since your last point was the most relevant one - "The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated" is true, but it's also ''obvious'', and therefore not worth stating. In fact, there is no computer system for which that statement is ''not'' true.

::Second, as regarding the events of "Valley of Darkness": Having two computers networked is not sufficient to make them vulnerable to attack. In order to receive a "virus" or any other sort of malware from off-ship, one of the components must have had a connection to the outside world via some sort of RF ("wireless") frequency. Thus, of the four computers Gaeta networked, at least one must already have been vulnerable.

::However, Galactica's entire design ethos was explicitly meant to separate vulnerable functions. There is no conceivable reason that any of the four systems Gaeta connected (FTL, Navigation, Fire control, Damage control) would need access to a wireless tranceiver. Therefore, the only plausible source for the virus was from ''within'' the ship itself. This does not present much of a contradiction - the simple fact of networking those four systems together would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:58, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::That's a good point, and one I purposefully addressed indirectly in the [[Computers]] article. We have to strike it up to one of three issues: (1) A retcon issue; (2) the mainframe computer (which may handle communications) is the most resistant to infiltration since it must ALWAYS have wireless up and running for fighter chat (DRADIS is managed through the Nav computer), or (3) the comm system is NOT computer-based or operated, but a hardwire system that transmits its data in a manner which cannot infect the mainframe in some manner. When other computers are connected to it via Gaeta's gateway (which also exposes the computers to the hardwired comm system network), the Cylons infiltrate by hacking the exposed ''gateway'' Gaeta created, not the computers. Yes, normally the other computers DON'T need or have access to the each other. But the ''gateway'' created was vulnerable because it's the comm system that's likely used to create one for the networking of the computers. Once the gateway was up, all but the comm system was vulnerable for reasons below.

:::In fact, a part of "Flight of the Phoenix" bears this speculation out: Gaeta has wiped the hard drives of ALL computers while Valerii is working on her unique virus in her head for the Cylon fleet. She transmits it out, but on what? All computers are down. This suggests that the comm systems (connected through her arm from the mainframe, which suggests it and the comm system also have a connection), while monitored through the mainframe, are not entirely computer-based since no computer was up to aid Valerii in hacking the enemy network AND transmitting the virus directly. Gaeta notes the transmission, indicating that comm was still up although the computers are still under restoration. In short, Cylons have never been able to hack ''Galactica's'' mainframe or comm systems, but once that ad hoc gateway was up, the other computers were exposed and the enemy had what they needed to hack in and infect. This doesn't explain the logic bomb, which I think is bad writing: how would it spread over a non-networked series of computers? It would mean that each computer had a copy of the bomb. But then, how would it activate? The comm/mainframe cannot be hacked and so cannot send the "execute" command to the logic bombs on the other computers, right? I smell contrivance, but its the best sense I can make of it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::I like the "Gateway attack" scenario (limited window created by Gaeta's jury-rigging), but it seems like all of these scenarios are running under the assumption that the virus/logic bomb infected the system from the outside. That may be the case (and Flight of the Phoenix seemed to prove that it could be transmitted that way, at least to the Raiders), but isn't it possible for ''Galactica'''s systems to have been infected from the ''inside''? With several potential humano-cylons on the loose inside the fleet, it may turn out that some of the computer problems have been done as part of an "inside job". I have NOTHING to support that, but I just wanted to raise the possibility (if it hadn't already been mentioned). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:06, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::This is what I've been saying all along. Am I not speaking english? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:29, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Didn't see that little bit right there at the end... "would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect" or perhaps I read it as an external attacker. I'm guessing that possibility is generally being overlooked in favor of the more straightforward external network attack. I hope that this angle is explored more and not left to speculation, as I don't think that it can be definitely proven how the system was compromised. (Which is what you've been saying this whole time. At least the message has spread one person further.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:46, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::I noted the possibility of Cylon agent infiltration, but again this requires the agent to individually infect ALL computers, or place an infection that won't replicate / install itself until/unless computers were networked. That's a whole lot of "if's". It's not that an agent infected the computers isn't possible, but based on what we've seen, it's not probable. We don't know if Biers is off Galactica, but she likely is. We don't know what the remaining agents look like. We do know that that Valerii said what would happen with the infection that did occur. It's even possible that her Galactica counterpart infected systems before she shot Adama. But that conflicts with what Gaeta watched during the jump calcs in Scattered. I just want some source that gives credibility to the internal hypothesis. (See, SV--we sysops are all having a nice, friendly discussion... :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:33, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::A virus could have been planted (through a hardline, onboard the ship) into one of the four networked systems during Scattered, and then spread to the other three in short order. I think it's actually fairly likely that there's an unknown cylon agent on Galactica - probably somebody of the lower ranks who we haven't seen, or else C-Valerii would have identified him.

::::::::For my sake, could you please try and restate the points in your second post, the one immediately after my reply? I have the feeling you're trying to say something interesting, but your wording is too confusing for me to untangle. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:56, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::Sure.
::::::::::* Since ''something'' has to be able to send out or match up command recognition codes, the mainframe and comm system work together, although comm (likely not a computer per se) can work independently of any computer system (note Valerii transmitting the virus code to the Cylon fleet in "Phoenix" although ''Galactica's'' computers are down).
::::::::::* I suspect the mainframe is inherently resistant to infection, or isolated from infection despite its role with the comm system. However, the mainframe's ''gateway'', which forms a network if other computers are connected, is not resistant. This is what the Cylons will hack into since the comm system is always up and routes data from it to the mainframe and the gateway. From the gateway a virus enters the most vulnerable computer and copies itself into others. Once situated, it begins its work.
::::::::::* The mainframe (which, as Doral said, may barely deserve the name of "computer") is highly resistant to infection or infiltration. It can also create firewalls to protect itself (Gaeta did this). It's analogous to the Mac OS X computers versus Windows computers today--both do the same, but one is designed well enough not to have infiltration issues as severely as the other. But even the mainframe can be rooted if given time; the Cylon virus adapts and learns.
::::::::::* An internal attack by a Cylon agent is possible but not probable. For what we know, all computers are centrally located in CIC. An agent would have to sit and hack or insert code into each system manually. This would require physical access that only a few have (this adds fire to the Gaeta-is-a-Cylon argument).
::::::::::* Barring plot complication we haven't seen, we are led (and only have evidence aired so far) that the virus attack was external. Otherwise, despite the point that humano-Cylons like to play with their prey, we'd think that the Cylons would have hacked ''Galactica's'' computers and killed the ship by now. Centurions never visited the CIC, so they're out as infectors, unless there was a fiber optic conduit for one of the closed computers they could've used to do so as they marauded the ship.
::::::::::* The "logic bomb" concept was specious; it couldn't travel through to the other computers (no network), and the system failures throughout the ship suggest that the computers fully control ''Galactica's'' subsystems like life support. Of course, the computers probably never fully cleaned, which makes more sense for system failures. Isn't that a network? Doesn't work. By the same token, for Cylons to activate the bomb from their fighter armada implies that Gaeta's ad-hoc network is up again and allowing hack commands to enter ''Galactica.'' BIG, freight-train sized science gaffe for the sake of plot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:01, 4 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::: For the sake of speculation, I'm going to state it as a given that the systems are not networked in any traditional sense and that the FTL, Navigation, Fire control, and Damage control computers are infected, and the Nav computer actually does manage DRADIS. Isn't it possible for the Cylons to have taken into account the fact that the ad-hoc network would be disabled before the virus could complete it's run, and build in contingencies for such an event? The DRADIS by nature would require a transceiver of some form. Even if that receiver is not designed to process such information, it would theoretically be possible send some sort of recognizable signal through it to the Nav computer to act as a trigger. Beyond that, the damage control computer would, by necessity, be connected to every system on the ship to monitor for failure conditions. In addition, the other three computers should be able to detect and/or set error condition markers for the systems they monitor and control. While nowhere near an efficient or traditional mode of communication, it could serve in a limited sense. The Cylons would be aware of, if not intimately acquainted with the designs for all battlestars thanks to Number Six's infiltration of the Defense Mainframe. Am I the only one who sees this as plausible? [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::Triggering a virus through DRADIS is plausible if it's ''already there'', but planting one that way is not. It must have come in through a comm channel (as Spencerian argues) or from inside the ship (as I do). None of the system failures in Flight of the Phoenix require a network to be in place anyway - once the logic bomb had infected the four sub-systems, it would procede to sabotage them independantly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:22, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::: As I said, I was making the fact that the systems were already infected a given. I was simply trying to explain the aparent coordination of the systems going down and how the Cylons kicked it into high gear, so to speak. However, the thought now comes to mind that, aside from the modifications ot CNP, the DRADIS control software could have also been modified pre-infection to enable it's use as a backdoor. (I know, reaching, but it floated to the top of my brain, so I go there...) [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:35, 8 January 2006 (EST)

==Image Discussion==

Okay, I had changed the Raider (new) image to a more accurate image of the raider (of how it really is supposed to look) but Merv changed it back. Instead of changing it back (which would predictably lead him to do the opposite) I leave it as a subject of discussion. I think the other pic, or at least that type of pic, is better than the present one, since it is more representative of the new cylon architecture than the set model, and it is also in its natural habitat. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006
:Actually you did the right think by moving the discussion here. Well, it's not in it's "natural habitat" this is a wireframe picture of a Raider; the skin isn't very detailed and "metallic" but slate gray, and look, the eye isn't even colored in ''red''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:41, 21 March 2006 (CST)
::What about this one? It's complete, because its the model Zoic used in the end.
[[Image:CyRaider.jpg|thumb|]]
:::Well, I'll just ask again which everyone prefers, if no one answes I'll proceed to putting this pic and seeing how it decelops.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

::No, Sauron, you're still just using a ''model''; it's the default one that Zoic sticks in, but the coloring is all wrong; please don't jump ahead on this one and "if no one answers proceed to use it" (you probably meant this less abrasively than it sounds). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:23, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::I prefer the screen capture to the render. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:25, 22 March 2006 (CST)

::::Well, what I meant with my comment is that if no one answered in a while I would just assume they accepted it., and therefore I would place it. Though I know this is an actual finished model (we see them the same in many times), I shall find a screencap then. I just don't like for the "set" raider to be seen as the New raider, since it doesnt't have exactly the same design, it is noticeably more round and squat than it should be (it is also not as metallic as it should be). --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

:::It would appear that Sauron18 is advocating for a picture of the ''video game'' Raider. You have to understand, that video game rendering is ''kindergartener crayon-drawing quality'' compared to a professional film-quality rendering. Everything is going to appear drabber, edge-ier (because of the whole thing with facets and polygons), and be distorted at odd viewing angles. Does this denote the "true" look of the object? No. Does this mean there is a different version of the object? No. ''Star Wars'' suffers from this crazed, ignorant fanaticism wherein the video game models are scaled/modelled/depicted in such varying degrees of quality from the original model they are meant to represent (in order to get the game out in a hurry, and/or keep the gameplay efficient), that certain "challenged" individuals get all frothy-mouthed and claim the video game objects as different variants of the object. Soon, you've got fifty different TIE fighters in the SW Universe, all because the rendering of the panels is slightly different from game to game.

:::Big frakkin' deal. A TIE is a TIE is a TIE. Same here... a Raider is a Raider... is a Raider.

:::Now, pardon my rant, but it leads into... I don't consider video game depictions as "official canon". Peripheral, supplemental canon, or canon-taken-with-a-disclaimer, perhaps. With that said, I don't think a rendering from the video game should be used to be the "official representation" of an object like the Raider. The screen capture should be used, or, if you want it to look cleaner, the '''''official''''' for-screen Zoic model rendering should be used. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 09:14, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::::I don't think he means using a video game model but the Zoic CGI one. I'll see if I can find a good shot that shows it's shape well. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:31, 22 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Talos is right, I wasn't talking about the game one (don't know where you got that). I was talking about the Zoic model (the picture of which I posted). I too shall look for an on screen full appeareance. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

Talk:Raider (RDM)/Archive 1

2006-07-28T13:38:12Z

Gallion: /* Concept drawings */

==New Article Structure==

I have edited this page only to include the information about the raider in the new series, moved all data from TOS raider to its own article and moved the video game raider to its own article under the video game ships category. I have put the main raider as the article and moved the "piloted" raider to the bottom as note, as it is not canon information.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 20:22, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

And can we get a new image of the raider, with it being in space, for the ship portal, and we can then put that picture as the main picture of the article, and move the one that is currently the main one now, in the article somewhere.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 20:25, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Concept drawings==
I have a question about the use of some of the concept drawings for the new raider. First of all, there are many concept drawings available here[http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/gallery.htm] at Galactica Station. I know that many of them are not related to the current raider. However, There are some really interesting pics of the brain and how it is connected to the ship, as well as a depiction of a Colonial pilot inside after the brain has been removed (much Like Kara Thrace had done). My question is, are we able to use these images in this article? I would like to see some imagery around the design of the raider and it's internal structure. What do people think of this? I'm not even sure if we can use these pics, but if they are original drawings for the series...wouldn't that fall under fair use?--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:03, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:While I agree the pics are very cool and give a great insight we have to remember that concept art is just that... Concept. Concept art does not always relate to the final product so isnt really [[canon]] in the RDM universe. Perhaps they could be added to the gallery provided a notice on the canonicity is provided alongside it on the image page? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:46, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:: I truly agree with the fact that they are not canon per-se, but under the special notice you had mentioned, I think it might be a nice minor addition. I'll wait a while before I do anything of course, just to see what people are thinking, and if people are in favour of adding them to the gallery with the afore mentioned canonicity note, then I'll go about getting it started.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:37, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:::Some of those concept art drawings don't even look like the final Raider design. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])

:::: Oh, This is very true, I would propose only to include the ones that reference the brain and the Colonial Pilot in said brain cavity. Specifically this one I guess: [http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/raiderintart40dv.htm]--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:51, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:::::Yeah, we could use the ones that are the concepts for the actual raiders used, including that one.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:42, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

::::::Ok, well I'll go for it and get it up and running, we'll try it out for a while at least.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:11, 28 July 2006 (CDT)
:::::::So, I did it...if its horrible, I'll totally change it (or anyone should change it if they want)..but what do you guys think? I'll add some more drawings that relate closely to the brain and internal workings of the final raider design if this is a good format.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:37, 28 July 2006 (CDT)

==Piloted Raiders==
Is there anything at all from the re-imagined series about a early piloted raider, or is this just speculation? --Glenmcbeth

:Well, in the Mini-series before they engage the NEW Cylon Raiders for the first time, the pilots are chattering over their radios and say that no one has seen the Cylons in 40 years, so they don't know how their ships will look different now--->one guy points out (accurately) that the basic design should be that of a 'flying wing'; so it's implied they were thinking of the old ones. That, and I think a model of one of the old ones was seen in the Galactica-musuem; anyway, when they see the NEW Raiders for the first time, a pilot reacts in shock that "no one's flying it!"; the "head" part was too small to have a Cylon Centurion sitting inside of it flying it; this would seem to imply that the OLD Raiders were exactly like TOS ones: with a Cylon flying them. ---Ricimer, 22, Sept, 2005

:: I don't know that that's enough to warrant mentioning that they were piloted by three Centurians and all the details that we have. I think it would be best to make "Cylong Raider (RDM)" nearly entirely about the autonomous Raiders we see so frequently in the series with perhaps a note in the Notes section mentioning that pilots expressed surprise that no one was piloting them and what their comments were, exactly, about the flying wing deal. Let the reader decide. I don't like displaying a picture at all. The museum was a nod to TOS, and I don't think it counts as precisely canon. Obviously, in the early stages of the first Cylon War, the Cylons were the same as built by the Colonials and were flying Colonial craft, but by the time it got to where they were working out of Basestars, I imagine they were manufacturing their own craft, too, so there's no reason to think that the craft the pilots were thinking of was Colonial in origin at all. I also dislike the mention of common tactics... That's never been mentioned on-screen in RDM at all, I don't think. --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:20, 19 January 2006 (EST)

==Split?==
This needs to be split into three articles - one for TOS, and one each for the piloted and autonomous RDM models. Anybody have ideas for article titles?

Additionally, should this be "Cylon Raider" or just "Raider"? We don't call them Colonial Vipers, after all. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:49, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:I agree that "Raider" should suffice. "Cylon Raider" might be necessary if we needed to distinguish it from a Colonial model. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:06, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:: Definately split into (TOS) and (RDM) name spaces. I think we could stick with the name Cylon Raider. I think they've called them that several times in the series and I take it to be the more "official" name (from the Colonial POV. Maybe the Cylons call them Daggits. Who knows?) --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:20, 19 January 2006 (EST)

i ahve deleted the tos cylon raider information off page and directed users to the main tos raider article. we should continue with this, and do the same with the video game raider.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 19:27, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:Is [[Cylon Raider]] to become a disambation page? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:36, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

No i have just moved it to a new name space to rdm, so we are still retaining it, but just moved it to a new name space--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 19:43, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:k. Tons of edits on pages that link to [[Cylon Raider]]. That's why I ask before I start going through the pages that have them. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:46, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

I think we need to fix this split: now there's no piloted Raider info at all. Yes, we know from the Miniseries that old Piloted Raiders look like TOS Raiders, and Ripper in the Miniseries seemed surprised that they ''were not'' piloted, positing that the old ones were. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:42, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Virus==
Kahran wrote:
:''The new Raider is also succeptable to the same type of system-crashing virus which it has been known to transmit itself. ("[[Flight of the Pheonix]]")''
Not correct. First of all, we've never actually seen a raider transmit a virus. In the miniseries, they exploited a back door in the CNP to shut down the fleet directly; in "Valley of Darkness" we saw a virus but for logical reasons, it could not possibly have originated from outside the ship; and in "Flight of the Phoenix" we again saw a backdoor being exploited, this time in the other direction. Secondly, it is completely unsurprising that a Cylon agent such as Caprica-Valerii would have knowledge of how to access such a backdoor in her own people's technology. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:37, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I'm questioning a part of the reasoning here. In the miniseries, the raiders exploit the CNP backdoors and command shutdown of Colonial systems. Yes; no "virus" is transmitted there. But in "Scattered" we hear Gaeta specifically discussing an infiltration attempt--

::Gaeta: "Here they come. Cylons are hacking our network. Attempting to access our gateway." 

:Later, ''Galactica'' contracts a virus. Since ''Galactica's'' systems were never networked prior and never have used the CNP (which, combined with Gaeta's information, confirms CNP is still not installed), a virus is most likely to have come from the outside, that some ship in the Cylon attack body was at work in cracking ''Galactica's'' computer network and infecting it a'la the tactics used in Cylon War I. This does NOT necessarily mean that the fighters did it (although screen shots show Gaeta's firewall ''fail'' moments before he disconnects it). The Centurions that board could have installed it, but we have no information to confirm this, nor does this make sense. Such an infection would only affect maybe one subsystem since the Centurions could not gain access to all primary, now-again isolated subsystems. They likely could infect only one, and that infection could not spread. Same would be true if a Cylon agent were to install a virus; the isolated subsystems would make it too impossible to infect all at once without attracting attention (Gaeta's and the rest of CIC, that is). The Cylon attack body is the likely cause of the virus, since it affects many subsystems that are normally isolated and they had the means to infect through their hacking. A virus isn't "transmitted," but installed once infiltration is successful. Kahran's wording is incorrect. The sentence should say: The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated (Flight of the Phoenix)"--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:07, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::I'll reply backwards, since your last point was the most relevant one - "The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated" is true, but it's also ''obvious'', and therefore not worth stating. In fact, there is no computer system for which that statement is ''not'' true.

::Second, as regarding the events of "Valley of Darkness": Having two computers networked is not sufficient to make them vulnerable to attack. In order to receive a "virus" or any other sort of malware from off-ship, one of the components must have had a connection to the outside world via some sort of RF ("wireless") frequency. Thus, of the four computers Gaeta networked, at least one must already have been vulnerable.

::However, Galactica's entire design ethos was explicitly meant to separate vulnerable functions. There is no conceivable reason that any of the four systems Gaeta connected (FTL, Navigation, Fire control, Damage control) would need access to a wireless tranceiver. Therefore, the only plausible source for the virus was from ''within'' the ship itself. This does not present much of a contradiction - the simple fact of networking those four systems together would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:58, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::That's a good point, and one I purposefully addressed indirectly in the [[Computers]] article. We have to strike it up to one of three issues: (1) A retcon issue; (2) the mainframe computer (which may handle communications) is the most resistant to infiltration since it must ALWAYS have wireless up and running for fighter chat (DRADIS is managed through the Nav computer), or (3) the comm system is NOT computer-based or operated, but a hardwire system that transmits its data in a manner which cannot infect the mainframe in some manner. When other computers are connected to it via Gaeta's gateway (which also exposes the computers to the hardwired comm system network), the Cylons infiltrate by hacking the exposed ''gateway'' Gaeta created, not the computers. Yes, normally the other computers DON'T need or have access to the each other. But the ''gateway'' created was vulnerable because it's the comm system that's likely used to create one for the networking of the computers. Once the gateway was up, all but the comm system was vulnerable for reasons below.

:::In fact, a part of "Flight of the Phoenix" bears this speculation out: Gaeta has wiped the hard drives of ALL computers while Valerii is working on her unique virus in her head for the Cylon fleet. She transmits it out, but on what? All computers are down. This suggests that the comm systems (connected through her arm from the mainframe, which suggests it and the comm system also have a connection), while monitored through the mainframe, are not entirely computer-based since no computer was up to aid Valerii in hacking the enemy network AND transmitting the virus directly. Gaeta notes the transmission, indicating that comm was still up although the computers are still under restoration. In short, Cylons have never been able to hack ''Galactica's'' mainframe or comm systems, but once that ad hoc gateway was up, the other computers were exposed and the enemy had what they needed to hack in and infect. This doesn't explain the logic bomb, which I think is bad writing: how would it spread over a non-networked series of computers? It would mean that each computer had a copy of the bomb. But then, how would it activate? The comm/mainframe cannot be hacked and so cannot send the "execute" command to the logic bombs on the other computers, right? I smell contrivance, but its the best sense I can make of it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::I like the "Gateway attack" scenario (limited window created by Gaeta's jury-rigging), but it seems like all of these scenarios are running under the assumption that the virus/logic bomb infected the system from the outside. That may be the case (and Flight of the Phoenix seemed to prove that it could be transmitted that way, at least to the Raiders), but isn't it possible for ''Galactica'''s systems to have been infected from the ''inside''? With several potential humano-cylons on the loose inside the fleet, it may turn out that some of the computer problems have been done as part of an "inside job". I have NOTHING to support that, but I just wanted to raise the possibility (if it hadn't already been mentioned). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:06, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::This is what I've been saying all along. Am I not speaking english? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:29, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Didn't see that little bit right there at the end... "would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect" or perhaps I read it as an external attacker. I'm guessing that possibility is generally being overlooked in favor of the more straightforward external network attack. I hope that this angle is explored more and not left to speculation, as I don't think that it can be definitely proven how the system was compromised. (Which is what you've been saying this whole time. At least the message has spread one person further.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:46, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::I noted the possibility of Cylon agent infiltration, but again this requires the agent to individually infect ALL computers, or place an infection that won't replicate / install itself until/unless computers were networked. That's a whole lot of "if's". It's not that an agent infected the computers isn't possible, but based on what we've seen, it's not probable. We don't know if Biers is off Galactica, but she likely is. We don't know what the remaining agents look like. We do know that that Valerii said what would happen with the infection that did occur. It's even possible that her Galactica counterpart infected systems before she shot Adama. But that conflicts with what Gaeta watched during the jump calcs in Scattered. I just want some source that gives credibility to the internal hypothesis. (See, SV--we sysops are all having a nice, friendly discussion... :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:33, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::A virus could have been planted (through a hardline, onboard the ship) into one of the four networked systems during Scattered, and then spread to the other three in short order. I think it's actually fairly likely that there's an unknown cylon agent on Galactica - probably somebody of the lower ranks who we haven't seen, or else C-Valerii would have identified him.

::::::::For my sake, could you please try and restate the points in your second post, the one immediately after my reply? I have the feeling you're trying to say something interesting, but your wording is too confusing for me to untangle. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:56, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::Sure.
::::::::::* Since ''something'' has to be able to send out or match up command recognition codes, the mainframe and comm system work together, although comm (likely not a computer per se) can work independently of any computer system (note Valerii transmitting the virus code to the Cylon fleet in "Phoenix" although ''Galactica's'' computers are down).
::::::::::* I suspect the mainframe is inherently resistant to infection, or isolated from infection despite its role with the comm system. However, the mainframe's ''gateway'', which forms a network if other computers are connected, is not resistant. This is what the Cylons will hack into since the comm system is always up and routes data from it to the mainframe and the gateway. From the gateway a virus enters the most vulnerable computer and copies itself into others. Once situated, it begins its work.
::::::::::* The mainframe (which, as Doral said, may barely deserve the name of "computer") is highly resistant to infection or infiltration. It can also create firewalls to protect itself (Gaeta did this). It's analogous to the Mac OS X computers versus Windows computers today--both do the same, but one is designed well enough not to have infiltration issues as severely as the other. But even the mainframe can be rooted if given time; the Cylon virus adapts and learns.
::::::::::* An internal attack by a Cylon agent is possible but not probable. For what we know, all computers are centrally located in CIC. An agent would have to sit and hack or insert code into each system manually. This would require physical access that only a few have (this adds fire to the Gaeta-is-a-Cylon argument).
::::::::::* Barring plot complication we haven't seen, we are led (and only have evidence aired so far) that the virus attack was external. Otherwise, despite the point that humano-Cylons like to play with their prey, we'd think that the Cylons would have hacked ''Galactica's'' computers and killed the ship by now. Centurions never visited the CIC, so they're out as infectors, unless there was a fiber optic conduit for one of the closed computers they could've used to do so as they marauded the ship.
::::::::::* The "logic bomb" concept was specious; it couldn't travel through to the other computers (no network), and the system failures throughout the ship suggest that the computers fully control ''Galactica's'' subsystems like life support. Of course, the computers probably never fully cleaned, which makes more sense for system failures. Isn't that a network? Doesn't work. By the same token, for Cylons to activate the bomb from their fighter armada implies that Gaeta's ad-hoc network is up again and allowing hack commands to enter ''Galactica.'' BIG, freight-train sized science gaffe for the sake of plot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:01, 4 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::: For the sake of speculation, I'm going to state it as a given that the systems are not networked in any traditional sense and that the FTL, Navigation, Fire control, and Damage control computers are infected, and the Nav computer actually does manage DRADIS. Isn't it possible for the Cylons to have taken into account the fact that the ad-hoc network would be disabled before the virus could complete it's run, and build in contingencies for such an event? The DRADIS by nature would require a transceiver of some form. Even if that receiver is not designed to process such information, it would theoretically be possible send some sort of recognizable signal through it to the Nav computer to act as a trigger. Beyond that, the damage control computer would, by necessity, be connected to every system on the ship to monitor for failure conditions. In addition, the other three computers should be able to detect and/or set error condition markers for the systems they monitor and control. While nowhere near an efficient or traditional mode of communication, it could serve in a limited sense. The Cylons would be aware of, if not intimately acquainted with the designs for all battlestars thanks to Number Six's infiltration of the Defense Mainframe. Am I the only one who sees this as plausible? [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::Triggering a virus through DRADIS is plausible if it's ''already there'', but planting one that way is not. It must have come in through a comm channel (as Spencerian argues) or from inside the ship (as I do). None of the system failures in Flight of the Phoenix require a network to be in place anyway - once the logic bomb had infected the four sub-systems, it would procede to sabotage them independantly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:22, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::: As I said, I was making the fact that the systems were already infected a given. I was simply trying to explain the aparent coordination of the systems going down and how the Cylons kicked it into high gear, so to speak. However, the thought now comes to mind that, aside from the modifications ot CNP, the DRADIS control software could have also been modified pre-infection to enable it's use as a backdoor. (I know, reaching, but it floated to the top of my brain, so I go there...) [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:35, 8 January 2006 (EST)

==Image Discussion==

Okay, I had changed the Raider (new) image to a more accurate image of the raider (of how it really is supposed to look) but Merv changed it back. Instead of changing it back (which would predictably lead him to do the opposite) I leave it as a subject of discussion. I think the other pic, or at least that type of pic, is better than the present one, since it is more representative of the new cylon architecture than the set model, and it is also in its natural habitat. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006
:Actually you did the right think by moving the discussion here. Well, it's not in it's "natural habitat" this is a wireframe picture of a Raider; the skin isn't very detailed and "metallic" but slate gray, and look, the eye isn't even colored in ''red''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:41, 21 March 2006 (CST)
::What about this one? It's complete, because its the model Zoic used in the end.
[[Image:CyRaider.jpg|thumb|]]
:::Well, I'll just ask again which everyone prefers, if no one answes I'll proceed to putting this pic and seeing how it decelops.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

::No, Sauron, you're still just using a ''model''; it's the default one that Zoic sticks in, but the coloring is all wrong; please don't jump ahead on this one and "if no one answers proceed to use it" (you probably meant this less abrasively than it sounds). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:23, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::I prefer the screen capture to the render. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:25, 22 March 2006 (CST)

::::Well, what I meant with my comment is that if no one answered in a while I would just assume they accepted it., and therefore I would place it. Though I know this is an actual finished model (we see them the same in many times), I shall find a screencap then. I just don't like for the "set" raider to be seen as the New raider, since it doesnt't have exactly the same design, it is noticeably more round and squat than it should be (it is also not as metallic as it should be). --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

:::It would appear that Sauron18 is advocating for a picture of the ''video game'' Raider. You have to understand, that video game rendering is ''kindergartener crayon-drawing quality'' compared to a professional film-quality rendering. Everything is going to appear drabber, edge-ier (because of the whole thing with facets and polygons), and be distorted at odd viewing angles. Does this denote the "true" look of the object? No. Does this mean there is a different version of the object? No. ''Star Wars'' suffers from this crazed, ignorant fanaticism wherein the video game models are scaled/modelled/depicted in such varying degrees of quality from the original model they are meant to represent (in order to get the game out in a hurry, and/or keep the gameplay efficient), that certain "challenged" individuals get all frothy-mouthed and claim the video game objects as different variants of the object. Soon, you've got fifty different TIE fighters in the SW Universe, all because the rendering of the panels is slightly different from game to game.

:::Big frakkin' deal. A TIE is a TIE is a TIE. Same here... a Raider is a Raider... is a Raider.

:::Now, pardon my rant, but it leads into... I don't consider video game depictions as "official canon". Peripheral, supplemental canon, or canon-taken-with-a-disclaimer, perhaps. With that said, I don't think a rendering from the video game should be used to be the "official representation" of an object like the Raider. The screen capture should be used, or, if you want it to look cleaner, the '''''official''''' for-screen Zoic model rendering should be used. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 09:14, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::::I don't think he means using a video game model but the Zoic CGI one. I'll see if I can find a good shot that shows it's shape well. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:31, 22 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Talos is right, I wasn't talking about the game one (don't know where you got that). I was talking about the Zoic model (the picture of which I posted). I too shall look for an on screen full appeareance. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

Talk:Raider (RDM)/Archive 1

2006-07-28T13:37:35Z

Gallion: /* Concept drawings */

==New Article Structure==

I have edited this page only to include the information about the raider in the new series, moved all data from TOS raider to its own article and moved the video game raider to its own article under the video game ships category. I have put the main raider as the article and moved the "piloted" raider to the bottom as note, as it is not canon information.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 20:22, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

And can we get a new image of the raider, with it being in space, for the ship portal, and we can then put that picture as the main picture of the article, and move the one that is currently the main one now, in the article somewhere.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 20:25, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Concept drawings==
I have a question about the use of some of the concept drawings for the new raider. First of all, there are many concept drawings available here[http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/gallery.htm] at Galactica Station. I know that many of them are not related to the current raider. However, There are some really interesting pics of the brain and how it is connected to the ship, as well as a depiction of a Colonial pilot inside after the brain has been removed (much Like Kara Thrace had done). My question is, are we able to use these images in this article? I would like to see some imagery around the design of the raider and it's internal structure. What do people think of this? I'm not even sure if we can use these pics, but if they are original drawings for the series...wouldn't that fall under fair use?--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:03, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:While I agree the pics are very cool and give a great insight we have to remember that concept art is just that... Concept. Concept art does not always relate to the final product so isnt really [[canon]] in the RDM universe. Perhaps they could be added to the gallery provided a notice on the canonicity is provided alongside it on the image page? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:46, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:: I truly agree with the fact that they are not canon per-se, but under the special notice you had mentioned, I think it might be a nice minor addition. I'll wait a while before I do anything of course, just to see what people are thinking, and if people are in favour of adding them to the gallery with the afore mentioned canonicity note, then I'll go about getting it started.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:37, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:::Some of those concept art drawings don't even look like the final Raider design. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])

:::: Oh, This is very true, I would propose only to include the ones that reference the brain and the Colonial Pilot in said brain cavity. Specifically this one I guess: [http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/raiderintart40dv.htm]--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:51, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:::::Yeah, we could use the ones that are the concepts for the actual raiders used, including that one.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:42, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

::::::Ok, well I'll go for it and get it up and running, we'll try it out for a while at least.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:11, 28 July 2006 (CDT)
So, I did it...if its horrible, I'll totally change it (or anyone should change it if they want)..but what do you guys think? I'll add some more drawings that relate closely to the brain and internal workings of the final raider design if this is a good format.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:37, 28 July 2006 (CDT)

==Piloted Raiders==
Is there anything at all from the re-imagined series about a early piloted raider, or is this just speculation? --Glenmcbeth

:Well, in the Mini-series before they engage the NEW Cylon Raiders for the first time, the pilots are chattering over their radios and say that no one has seen the Cylons in 40 years, so they don't know how their ships will look different now--->one guy points out (accurately) that the basic design should be that of a 'flying wing'; so it's implied they were thinking of the old ones. That, and I think a model of one of the old ones was seen in the Galactica-musuem; anyway, when they see the NEW Raiders for the first time, a pilot reacts in shock that "no one's flying it!"; the "head" part was too small to have a Cylon Centurion sitting inside of it flying it; this would seem to imply that the OLD Raiders were exactly like TOS ones: with a Cylon flying them. ---Ricimer, 22, Sept, 2005

:: I don't know that that's enough to warrant mentioning that they were piloted by three Centurians and all the details that we have. I think it would be best to make "Cylong Raider (RDM)" nearly entirely about the autonomous Raiders we see so frequently in the series with perhaps a note in the Notes section mentioning that pilots expressed surprise that no one was piloting them and what their comments were, exactly, about the flying wing deal. Let the reader decide. I don't like displaying a picture at all. The museum was a nod to TOS, and I don't think it counts as precisely canon. Obviously, in the early stages of the first Cylon War, the Cylons were the same as built by the Colonials and were flying Colonial craft, but by the time it got to where they were working out of Basestars, I imagine they were manufacturing their own craft, too, so there's no reason to think that the craft the pilots were thinking of was Colonial in origin at all. I also dislike the mention of common tactics... That's never been mentioned on-screen in RDM at all, I don't think. --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:20, 19 January 2006 (EST)

==Split?==
This needs to be split into three articles - one for TOS, and one each for the piloted and autonomous RDM models. Anybody have ideas for article titles?

Additionally, should this be "Cylon Raider" or just "Raider"? We don't call them Colonial Vipers, after all. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:49, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:I agree that "Raider" should suffice. "Cylon Raider" might be necessary if we needed to distinguish it from a Colonial model. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:06, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:: Definately split into (TOS) and (RDM) name spaces. I think we could stick with the name Cylon Raider. I think they've called them that several times in the series and I take it to be the more "official" name (from the Colonial POV. Maybe the Cylons call them Daggits. Who knows?) --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:20, 19 January 2006 (EST)

i ahve deleted the tos cylon raider information off page and directed users to the main tos raider article. we should continue with this, and do the same with the video game raider.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 19:27, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:Is [[Cylon Raider]] to become a disambation page? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:36, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

No i have just moved it to a new name space to rdm, so we are still retaining it, but just moved it to a new name space--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 19:43, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:k. Tons of edits on pages that link to [[Cylon Raider]]. That's why I ask before I start going through the pages that have them. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:46, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

I think we need to fix this split: now there's no piloted Raider info at all. Yes, we know from the Miniseries that old Piloted Raiders look like TOS Raiders, and Ripper in the Miniseries seemed surprised that they ''were not'' piloted, positing that the old ones were. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:42, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Virus==
Kahran wrote:
:''The new Raider is also succeptable to the same type of system-crashing virus which it has been known to transmit itself. ("[[Flight of the Pheonix]]")''
Not correct. First of all, we've never actually seen a raider transmit a virus. In the miniseries, they exploited a back door in the CNP to shut down the fleet directly; in "Valley of Darkness" we saw a virus but for logical reasons, it could not possibly have originated from outside the ship; and in "Flight of the Phoenix" we again saw a backdoor being exploited, this time in the other direction. Secondly, it is completely unsurprising that a Cylon agent such as Caprica-Valerii would have knowledge of how to access such a backdoor in her own people's technology. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:37, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I'm questioning a part of the reasoning here. In the miniseries, the raiders exploit the CNP backdoors and command shutdown of Colonial systems. Yes; no "virus" is transmitted there. But in "Scattered" we hear Gaeta specifically discussing an infiltration attempt--

::Gaeta: "Here they come. Cylons are hacking our network. Attempting to access our gateway." 

:Later, ''Galactica'' contracts a virus. Since ''Galactica's'' systems were never networked prior and never have used the CNP (which, combined with Gaeta's information, confirms CNP is still not installed), a virus is most likely to have come from the outside, that some ship in the Cylon attack body was at work in cracking ''Galactica's'' computer network and infecting it a'la the tactics used in Cylon War I. This does NOT necessarily mean that the fighters did it (although screen shots show Gaeta's firewall ''fail'' moments before he disconnects it). The Centurions that board could have installed it, but we have no information to confirm this, nor does this make sense. Such an infection would only affect maybe one subsystem since the Centurions could not gain access to all primary, now-again isolated subsystems. They likely could infect only one, and that infection could not spread. Same would be true if a Cylon agent were to install a virus; the isolated subsystems would make it too impossible to infect all at once without attracting attention (Gaeta's and the rest of CIC, that is). The Cylon attack body is the likely cause of the virus, since it affects many subsystems that are normally isolated and they had the means to infect through their hacking. A virus isn't "transmitted," but installed once infiltration is successful. Kahran's wording is incorrect. The sentence should say: The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated (Flight of the Phoenix)"--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:07, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::I'll reply backwards, since your last point was the most relevant one - "The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated" is true, but it's also ''obvious'', and therefore not worth stating. In fact, there is no computer system for which that statement is ''not'' true.

::Second, as regarding the events of "Valley of Darkness": Having two computers networked is not sufficient to make them vulnerable to attack. In order to receive a "virus" or any other sort of malware from off-ship, one of the components must have had a connection to the outside world via some sort of RF ("wireless") frequency. Thus, of the four computers Gaeta networked, at least one must already have been vulnerable.

::However, Galactica's entire design ethos was explicitly meant to separate vulnerable functions. There is no conceivable reason that any of the four systems Gaeta connected (FTL, Navigation, Fire control, Damage control) would need access to a wireless tranceiver. Therefore, the only plausible source for the virus was from ''within'' the ship itself. This does not present much of a contradiction - the simple fact of networking those four systems together would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:58, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::That's a good point, and one I purposefully addressed indirectly in the [[Computers]] article. We have to strike it up to one of three issues: (1) A retcon issue; (2) the mainframe computer (which may handle communications) is the most resistant to infiltration since it must ALWAYS have wireless up and running for fighter chat (DRADIS is managed through the Nav computer), or (3) the comm system is NOT computer-based or operated, but a hardwire system that transmits its data in a manner which cannot infect the mainframe in some manner. When other computers are connected to it via Gaeta's gateway (which also exposes the computers to the hardwired comm system network), the Cylons infiltrate by hacking the exposed ''gateway'' Gaeta created, not the computers. Yes, normally the other computers DON'T need or have access to the each other. But the ''gateway'' created was vulnerable because it's the comm system that's likely used to create one for the networking of the computers. Once the gateway was up, all but the comm system was vulnerable for reasons below.

:::In fact, a part of "Flight of the Phoenix" bears this speculation out: Gaeta has wiped the hard drives of ALL computers while Valerii is working on her unique virus in her head for the Cylon fleet. She transmits it out, but on what? All computers are down. This suggests that the comm systems (connected through her arm from the mainframe, which suggests it and the comm system also have a connection), while monitored through the mainframe, are not entirely computer-based since no computer was up to aid Valerii in hacking the enemy network AND transmitting the virus directly. Gaeta notes the transmission, indicating that comm was still up although the computers are still under restoration. In short, Cylons have never been able to hack ''Galactica's'' mainframe or comm systems, but once that ad hoc gateway was up, the other computers were exposed and the enemy had what they needed to hack in and infect. This doesn't explain the logic bomb, which I think is bad writing: how would it spread over a non-networked series of computers? It would mean that each computer had a copy of the bomb. But then, how would it activate? The comm/mainframe cannot be hacked and so cannot send the "execute" command to the logic bombs on the other computers, right? I smell contrivance, but its the best sense I can make of it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::I like the "Gateway attack" scenario (limited window created by Gaeta's jury-rigging), but it seems like all of these scenarios are running under the assumption that the virus/logic bomb infected the system from the outside. That may be the case (and Flight of the Phoenix seemed to prove that it could be transmitted that way, at least to the Raiders), but isn't it possible for ''Galactica'''s systems to have been infected from the ''inside''? With several potential humano-cylons on the loose inside the fleet, it may turn out that some of the computer problems have been done as part of an "inside job". I have NOTHING to support that, but I just wanted to raise the possibility (if it hadn't already been mentioned). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:06, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::This is what I've been saying all along. Am I not speaking english? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:29, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Didn't see that little bit right there at the end... "would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect" or perhaps I read it as an external attacker. I'm guessing that possibility is generally being overlooked in favor of the more straightforward external network attack. I hope that this angle is explored more and not left to speculation, as I don't think that it can be definitely proven how the system was compromised. (Which is what you've been saying this whole time. At least the message has spread one person further.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:46, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::I noted the possibility of Cylon agent infiltration, but again this requires the agent to individually infect ALL computers, or place an infection that won't replicate / install itself until/unless computers were networked. That's a whole lot of "if's". It's not that an agent infected the computers isn't possible, but based on what we've seen, it's not probable. We don't know if Biers is off Galactica, but she likely is. We don't know what the remaining agents look like. We do know that that Valerii said what would happen with the infection that did occur. It's even possible that her Galactica counterpart infected systems before she shot Adama. But that conflicts with what Gaeta watched during the jump calcs in Scattered. I just want some source that gives credibility to the internal hypothesis. (See, SV--we sysops are all having a nice, friendly discussion... :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:33, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::A virus could have been planted (through a hardline, onboard the ship) into one of the four networked systems during Scattered, and then spread to the other three in short order. I think it's actually fairly likely that there's an unknown cylon agent on Galactica - probably somebody of the lower ranks who we haven't seen, or else C-Valerii would have identified him.

::::::::For my sake, could you please try and restate the points in your second post, the one immediately after my reply? I have the feeling you're trying to say something interesting, but your wording is too confusing for me to untangle. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:56, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::Sure.
::::::::::* Since ''something'' has to be able to send out or match up command recognition codes, the mainframe and comm system work together, although comm (likely not a computer per se) can work independently of any computer system (note Valerii transmitting the virus code to the Cylon fleet in "Phoenix" although ''Galactica's'' computers are down).
::::::::::* I suspect the mainframe is inherently resistant to infection, or isolated from infection despite its role with the comm system. However, the mainframe's ''gateway'', which forms a network if other computers are connected, is not resistant. This is what the Cylons will hack into since the comm system is always up and routes data from it to the mainframe and the gateway. From the gateway a virus enters the most vulnerable computer and copies itself into others. Once situated, it begins its work.
::::::::::* The mainframe (which, as Doral said, may barely deserve the name of "computer") is highly resistant to infection or infiltration. It can also create firewalls to protect itself (Gaeta did this). It's analogous to the Mac OS X computers versus Windows computers today--both do the same, but one is designed well enough not to have infiltration issues as severely as the other. But even the mainframe can be rooted if given time; the Cylon virus adapts and learns.
::::::::::* An internal attack by a Cylon agent is possible but not probable. For what we know, all computers are centrally located in CIC. An agent would have to sit and hack or insert code into each system manually. This would require physical access that only a few have (this adds fire to the Gaeta-is-a-Cylon argument).
::::::::::* Barring plot complication we haven't seen, we are led (and only have evidence aired so far) that the virus attack was external. Otherwise, despite the point that humano-Cylons like to play with their prey, we'd think that the Cylons would have hacked ''Galactica's'' computers and killed the ship by now. Centurions never visited the CIC, so they're out as infectors, unless there was a fiber optic conduit for one of the closed computers they could've used to do so as they marauded the ship.
::::::::::* The "logic bomb" concept was specious; it couldn't travel through to the other computers (no network), and the system failures throughout the ship suggest that the computers fully control ''Galactica's'' subsystems like life support. Of course, the computers probably never fully cleaned, which makes more sense for system failures. Isn't that a network? Doesn't work. By the same token, for Cylons to activate the bomb from their fighter armada implies that Gaeta's ad-hoc network is up again and allowing hack commands to enter ''Galactica.'' BIG, freight-train sized science gaffe for the sake of plot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:01, 4 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::: For the sake of speculation, I'm going to state it as a given that the systems are not networked in any traditional sense and that the FTL, Navigation, Fire control, and Damage control computers are infected, and the Nav computer actually does manage DRADIS. Isn't it possible for the Cylons to have taken into account the fact that the ad-hoc network would be disabled before the virus could complete it's run, and build in contingencies for such an event? The DRADIS by nature would require a transceiver of some form. Even if that receiver is not designed to process such information, it would theoretically be possible send some sort of recognizable signal through it to the Nav computer to act as a trigger. Beyond that, the damage control computer would, by necessity, be connected to every system on the ship to monitor for failure conditions. In addition, the other three computers should be able to detect and/or set error condition markers for the systems they monitor and control. While nowhere near an efficient or traditional mode of communication, it could serve in a limited sense. The Cylons would be aware of, if not intimately acquainted with the designs for all battlestars thanks to Number Six's infiltration of the Defense Mainframe. Am I the only one who sees this as plausible? [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::Triggering a virus through DRADIS is plausible if it's ''already there'', but planting one that way is not. It must have come in through a comm channel (as Spencerian argues) or from inside the ship (as I do). None of the system failures in Flight of the Phoenix require a network to be in place anyway - once the logic bomb had infected the four sub-systems, it would procede to sabotage them independantly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:22, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::: As I said, I was making the fact that the systems were already infected a given. I was simply trying to explain the aparent coordination of the systems going down and how the Cylons kicked it into high gear, so to speak. However, the thought now comes to mind that, aside from the modifications ot CNP, the DRADIS control software could have also been modified pre-infection to enable it's use as a backdoor. (I know, reaching, but it floated to the top of my brain, so I go there...) [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:35, 8 January 2006 (EST)

==Image Discussion==

Okay, I had changed the Raider (new) image to a more accurate image of the raider (of how it really is supposed to look) but Merv changed it back. Instead of changing it back (which would predictably lead him to do the opposite) I leave it as a subject of discussion. I think the other pic, or at least that type of pic, is better than the present one, since it is more representative of the new cylon architecture than the set model, and it is also in its natural habitat. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006
:Actually you did the right think by moving the discussion here. Well, it's not in it's "natural habitat" this is a wireframe picture of a Raider; the skin isn't very detailed and "metallic" but slate gray, and look, the eye isn't even colored in ''red''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:41, 21 March 2006 (CST)
::What about this one? It's complete, because its the model Zoic used in the end.
[[Image:CyRaider.jpg|thumb|]]
:::Well, I'll just ask again which everyone prefers, if no one answes I'll proceed to putting this pic and seeing how it decelops.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

::No, Sauron, you're still just using a ''model''; it's the default one that Zoic sticks in, but the coloring is all wrong; please don't jump ahead on this one and "if no one answers proceed to use it" (you probably meant this less abrasively than it sounds). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:23, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::I prefer the screen capture to the render. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:25, 22 March 2006 (CST)

::::Well, what I meant with my comment is that if no one answered in a while I would just assume they accepted it., and therefore I would place it. Though I know this is an actual finished model (we see them the same in many times), I shall find a screencap then. I just don't like for the "set" raider to be seen as the New raider, since it doesnt't have exactly the same design, it is noticeably more round and squat than it should be (it is also not as metallic as it should be). --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

:::It would appear that Sauron18 is advocating for a picture of the ''video game'' Raider. You have to understand, that video game rendering is ''kindergartener crayon-drawing quality'' compared to a professional film-quality rendering. Everything is going to appear drabber, edge-ier (because of the whole thing with facets and polygons), and be distorted at odd viewing angles. Does this denote the "true" look of the object? No. Does this mean there is a different version of the object? No. ''Star Wars'' suffers from this crazed, ignorant fanaticism wherein the video game models are scaled/modelled/depicted in such varying degrees of quality from the original model they are meant to represent (in order to get the game out in a hurry, and/or keep the gameplay efficient), that certain "challenged" individuals get all frothy-mouthed and claim the video game objects as different variants of the object. Soon, you've got fifty different TIE fighters in the SW Universe, all because the rendering of the panels is slightly different from game to game.

:::Big frakkin' deal. A TIE is a TIE is a TIE. Same here... a Raider is a Raider... is a Raider.

:::Now, pardon my rant, but it leads into... I don't consider video game depictions as "official canon". Peripheral, supplemental canon, or canon-taken-with-a-disclaimer, perhaps. With that said, I don't think a rendering from the video game should be used to be the "official representation" of an object like the Raider. The screen capture should be used, or, if you want it to look cleaner, the '''''official''''' for-screen Zoic model rendering should be used. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 09:14, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::::I don't think he means using a video game model but the Zoic CGI one. I'll see if I can find a good shot that shows it's shape well. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:31, 22 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Talos is right, I wasn't talking about the game one (don't know where you got that). I was talking about the Zoic model (the picture of which I posted). I too shall look for an on screen full appeareance. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

Raider (RDM)

2006-07-28T13:34:31Z

Gallion:

Talk:Raider (RDM)/Archive 1

2006-07-28T12:11:06Z

Gallion: /* Concept drawings */

==New Article Structure==

I have edited this page only to include the information about the raider in the new series, moved all data from TOS raider to its own article and moved the video game raider to its own article under the video game ships category. I have put the main raider as the article and moved the "piloted" raider to the bottom as note, as it is not canon information.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 20:22, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

And can we get a new image of the raider, with it being in space, for the ship portal, and we can then put that picture as the main picture of the article, and move the one that is currently the main one now, in the article somewhere.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 20:25, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Concept drawings==
I have a question about the use of some of the concept drawings for the new raider. First of all, there are many concept drawings available here[http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/gallery.htm] at Galactica Station. I know that many of them are not related to the current raider. However, There are some really interesting pics of the brain and how it is connected to the ship, as well as a depiction of a Colonial pilot inside after the brain has been removed (much Like Kara Thrace had done). My question is, are we able to use these images in this article? I would like to see some imagery around the design of the raider and it's internal structure. What do people think of this? I'm not even sure if we can use these pics, but if they are original drawings for the series...wouldn't that fall under fair use?--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:03, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:While I agree the pics are very cool and give a great insight we have to remember that concept art is just that... Concept. Concept art does not always relate to the final product so isnt really [[canon]] in the RDM universe. Perhaps they could be added to the gallery provided a notice on the canonicity is provided alongside it on the image page? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:46, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:: I truly agree with the fact that they are not canon per-se, but under the special notice you had mentioned, I think it might be a nice minor addition. I'll wait a while before I do anything of course, just to see what people are thinking, and if people are in favour of adding them to the gallery with the afore mentioned canonicity note, then I'll go about getting it started.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:37, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:::Some of those concept art drawings don't even look like the final Raider design. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])

:::: Oh, This is very true, I would propose only to include the ones that reference the brain and the Colonial Pilot in said brain cavity. Specifically this one I guess: [http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/raiderintart40dv.htm]--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:51, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:::::Yeah, we could use the ones that are the concepts for the actual raiders used, including that one.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:42, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

::::::Ok, well I'll go for it and get it up and running, we'll try it out for a while at least.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:11, 28 July 2006 (CDT)

==Piloted Raiders==
Is there anything at all from the re-imagined series about a early piloted raider, or is this just speculation? --Glenmcbeth

:Well, in the Mini-series before they engage the NEW Cylon Raiders for the first time, the pilots are chattering over their radios and say that no one has seen the Cylons in 40 years, so they don't know how their ships will look different now--->one guy points out (accurately) that the basic design should be that of a 'flying wing'; so it's implied they were thinking of the old ones. That, and I think a model of one of the old ones was seen in the Galactica-musuem; anyway, when they see the NEW Raiders for the first time, a pilot reacts in shock that "no one's flying it!"; the "head" part was too small to have a Cylon Centurion sitting inside of it flying it; this would seem to imply that the OLD Raiders were exactly like TOS ones: with a Cylon flying them. ---Ricimer, 22, Sept, 2005

:: I don't know that that's enough to warrant mentioning that they were piloted by three Centurians and all the details that we have. I think it would be best to make "Cylong Raider (RDM)" nearly entirely about the autonomous Raiders we see so frequently in the series with perhaps a note in the Notes section mentioning that pilots expressed surprise that no one was piloting them and what their comments were, exactly, about the flying wing deal. Let the reader decide. I don't like displaying a picture at all. The museum was a nod to TOS, and I don't think it counts as precisely canon. Obviously, in the early stages of the first Cylon War, the Cylons were the same as built by the Colonials and were flying Colonial craft, but by the time it got to where they were working out of Basestars, I imagine they were manufacturing their own craft, too, so there's no reason to think that the craft the pilots were thinking of was Colonial in origin at all. I also dislike the mention of common tactics... That's never been mentioned on-screen in RDM at all, I don't think. --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:20, 19 January 2006 (EST)

==Split?==
This needs to be split into three articles - one for TOS, and one each for the piloted and autonomous RDM models. Anybody have ideas for article titles?

Additionally, should this be "Cylon Raider" or just "Raider"? We don't call them Colonial Vipers, after all. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:49, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:I agree that "Raider" should suffice. "Cylon Raider" might be necessary if we needed to distinguish it from a Colonial model. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:06, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:: Definately split into (TOS) and (RDM) name spaces. I think we could stick with the name Cylon Raider. I think they've called them that several times in the series and I take it to be the more "official" name (from the Colonial POV. Maybe the Cylons call them Daggits. Who knows?) --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:20, 19 January 2006 (EST)

i ahve deleted the tos cylon raider information off page and directed users to the main tos raider article. we should continue with this, and do the same with the video game raider.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 19:27, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:Is [[Cylon Raider]] to become a disambation page? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:36, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

No i have just moved it to a new name space to rdm, so we are still retaining it, but just moved it to a new name space--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 19:43, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:k. Tons of edits on pages that link to [[Cylon Raider]]. That's why I ask before I start going through the pages that have them. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:46, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

I think we need to fix this split: now there's no piloted Raider info at all. Yes, we know from the Miniseries that old Piloted Raiders look like TOS Raiders, and Ripper in the Miniseries seemed surprised that they ''were not'' piloted, positing that the old ones were. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:42, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Virus==
Kahran wrote:
:''The new Raider is also succeptable to the same type of system-crashing virus which it has been known to transmit itself. ("[[Flight of the Pheonix]]")''
Not correct. First of all, we've never actually seen a raider transmit a virus. In the miniseries, they exploited a back door in the CNP to shut down the fleet directly; in "Valley of Darkness" we saw a virus but for logical reasons, it could not possibly have originated from outside the ship; and in "Flight of the Phoenix" we again saw a backdoor being exploited, this time in the other direction. Secondly, it is completely unsurprising that a Cylon agent such as Caprica-Valerii would have knowledge of how to access such a backdoor in her own people's technology. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:37, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I'm questioning a part of the reasoning here. In the miniseries, the raiders exploit the CNP backdoors and command shutdown of Colonial systems. Yes; no "virus" is transmitted there. But in "Scattered" we hear Gaeta specifically discussing an infiltration attempt--

::Gaeta: "Here they come. Cylons are hacking our network. Attempting to access our gateway." 

:Later, ''Galactica'' contracts a virus. Since ''Galactica's'' systems were never networked prior and never have used the CNP (which, combined with Gaeta's information, confirms CNP is still not installed), a virus is most likely to have come from the outside, that some ship in the Cylon attack body was at work in cracking ''Galactica's'' computer network and infecting it a'la the tactics used in Cylon War I. This does NOT necessarily mean that the fighters did it (although screen shots show Gaeta's firewall ''fail'' moments before he disconnects it). The Centurions that board could have installed it, but we have no information to confirm this, nor does this make sense. Such an infection would only affect maybe one subsystem since the Centurions could not gain access to all primary, now-again isolated subsystems. They likely could infect only one, and that infection could not spread. Same would be true if a Cylon agent were to install a virus; the isolated subsystems would make it too impossible to infect all at once without attracting attention (Gaeta's and the rest of CIC, that is). The Cylon attack body is the likely cause of the virus, since it affects many subsystems that are normally isolated and they had the means to infect through their hacking. A virus isn't "transmitted," but installed once infiltration is successful. Kahran's wording is incorrect. The sentence should say: The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated (Flight of the Phoenix)"--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:07, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::I'll reply backwards, since your last point was the most relevant one - "The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated" is true, but it's also ''obvious'', and therefore not worth stating. In fact, there is no computer system for which that statement is ''not'' true.

::Second, as regarding the events of "Valley of Darkness": Having two computers networked is not sufficient to make them vulnerable to attack. In order to receive a "virus" or any other sort of malware from off-ship, one of the components must have had a connection to the outside world via some sort of RF ("wireless") frequency. Thus, of the four computers Gaeta networked, at least one must already have been vulnerable.

::However, Galactica's entire design ethos was explicitly meant to separate vulnerable functions. There is no conceivable reason that any of the four systems Gaeta connected (FTL, Navigation, Fire control, Damage control) would need access to a wireless tranceiver. Therefore, the only plausible source for the virus was from ''within'' the ship itself. This does not present much of a contradiction - the simple fact of networking those four systems together would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:58, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::That's a good point, and one I purposefully addressed indirectly in the [[Computers]] article. We have to strike it up to one of three issues: (1) A retcon issue; (2) the mainframe computer (which may handle communications) is the most resistant to infiltration since it must ALWAYS have wireless up and running for fighter chat (DRADIS is managed through the Nav computer), or (3) the comm system is NOT computer-based or operated, but a hardwire system that transmits its data in a manner which cannot infect the mainframe in some manner. When other computers are connected to it via Gaeta's gateway (which also exposes the computers to the hardwired comm system network), the Cylons infiltrate by hacking the exposed ''gateway'' Gaeta created, not the computers. Yes, normally the other computers DON'T need or have access to the each other. But the ''gateway'' created was vulnerable because it's the comm system that's likely used to create one for the networking of the computers. Once the gateway was up, all but the comm system was vulnerable for reasons below.

:::In fact, a part of "Flight of the Phoenix" bears this speculation out: Gaeta has wiped the hard drives of ALL computers while Valerii is working on her unique virus in her head for the Cylon fleet. She transmits it out, but on what? All computers are down. This suggests that the comm systems (connected through her arm from the mainframe, which suggests it and the comm system also have a connection), while monitored through the mainframe, are not entirely computer-based since no computer was up to aid Valerii in hacking the enemy network AND transmitting the virus directly. Gaeta notes the transmission, indicating that comm was still up although the computers are still under restoration. In short, Cylons have never been able to hack ''Galactica's'' mainframe or comm systems, but once that ad hoc gateway was up, the other computers were exposed and the enemy had what they needed to hack in and infect. This doesn't explain the logic bomb, which I think is bad writing: how would it spread over a non-networked series of computers? It would mean that each computer had a copy of the bomb. But then, how would it activate? The comm/mainframe cannot be hacked and so cannot send the "execute" command to the logic bombs on the other computers, right? I smell contrivance, but its the best sense I can make of it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::I like the "Gateway attack" scenario (limited window created by Gaeta's jury-rigging), but it seems like all of these scenarios are running under the assumption that the virus/logic bomb infected the system from the outside. That may be the case (and Flight of the Phoenix seemed to prove that it could be transmitted that way, at least to the Raiders), but isn't it possible for ''Galactica'''s systems to have been infected from the ''inside''? With several potential humano-cylons on the loose inside the fleet, it may turn out that some of the computer problems have been done as part of an "inside job". I have NOTHING to support that, but I just wanted to raise the possibility (if it hadn't already been mentioned). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:06, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::This is what I've been saying all along. Am I not speaking english? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:29, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Didn't see that little bit right there at the end... "would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect" or perhaps I read it as an external attacker. I'm guessing that possibility is generally being overlooked in favor of the more straightforward external network attack. I hope that this angle is explored more and not left to speculation, as I don't think that it can be definitely proven how the system was compromised. (Which is what you've been saying this whole time. At least the message has spread one person further.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:46, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::I noted the possibility of Cylon agent infiltration, but again this requires the agent to individually infect ALL computers, or place an infection that won't replicate / install itself until/unless computers were networked. That's a whole lot of "if's". It's not that an agent infected the computers isn't possible, but based on what we've seen, it's not probable. We don't know if Biers is off Galactica, but she likely is. We don't know what the remaining agents look like. We do know that that Valerii said what would happen with the infection that did occur. It's even possible that her Galactica counterpart infected systems before she shot Adama. But that conflicts with what Gaeta watched during the jump calcs in Scattered. I just want some source that gives credibility to the internal hypothesis. (See, SV--we sysops are all having a nice, friendly discussion... :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:33, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::A virus could have been planted (through a hardline, onboard the ship) into one of the four networked systems during Scattered, and then spread to the other three in short order. I think it's actually fairly likely that there's an unknown cylon agent on Galactica - probably somebody of the lower ranks who we haven't seen, or else C-Valerii would have identified him.

::::::::For my sake, could you please try and restate the points in your second post, the one immediately after my reply? I have the feeling you're trying to say something interesting, but your wording is too confusing for me to untangle. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:56, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::Sure.
::::::::::* Since ''something'' has to be able to send out or match up command recognition codes, the mainframe and comm system work together, although comm (likely not a computer per se) can work independently of any computer system (note Valerii transmitting the virus code to the Cylon fleet in "Phoenix" although ''Galactica's'' computers are down).
::::::::::* I suspect the mainframe is inherently resistant to infection, or isolated from infection despite its role with the comm system. However, the mainframe's ''gateway'', which forms a network if other computers are connected, is not resistant. This is what the Cylons will hack into since the comm system is always up and routes data from it to the mainframe and the gateway. From the gateway a virus enters the most vulnerable computer and copies itself into others. Once situated, it begins its work.
::::::::::* The mainframe (which, as Doral said, may barely deserve the name of "computer") is highly resistant to infection or infiltration. It can also create firewalls to protect itself (Gaeta did this). It's analogous to the Mac OS X computers versus Windows computers today--both do the same, but one is designed well enough not to have infiltration issues as severely as the other. But even the mainframe can be rooted if given time; the Cylon virus adapts and learns.
::::::::::* An internal attack by a Cylon agent is possible but not probable. For what we know, all computers are centrally located in CIC. An agent would have to sit and hack or insert code into each system manually. This would require physical access that only a few have (this adds fire to the Gaeta-is-a-Cylon argument).
::::::::::* Barring plot complication we haven't seen, we are led (and only have evidence aired so far) that the virus attack was external. Otherwise, despite the point that humano-Cylons like to play with their prey, we'd think that the Cylons would have hacked ''Galactica's'' computers and killed the ship by now. Centurions never visited the CIC, so they're out as infectors, unless there was a fiber optic conduit for one of the closed computers they could've used to do so as they marauded the ship.
::::::::::* The "logic bomb" concept was specious; it couldn't travel through to the other computers (no network), and the system failures throughout the ship suggest that the computers fully control ''Galactica's'' subsystems like life support. Of course, the computers probably never fully cleaned, which makes more sense for system failures. Isn't that a network? Doesn't work. By the same token, for Cylons to activate the bomb from their fighter armada implies that Gaeta's ad-hoc network is up again and allowing hack commands to enter ''Galactica.'' BIG, freight-train sized science gaffe for the sake of plot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:01, 4 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::: For the sake of speculation, I'm going to state it as a given that the systems are not networked in any traditional sense and that the FTL, Navigation, Fire control, and Damage control computers are infected, and the Nav computer actually does manage DRADIS. Isn't it possible for the Cylons to have taken into account the fact that the ad-hoc network would be disabled before the virus could complete it's run, and build in contingencies for such an event? The DRADIS by nature would require a transceiver of some form. Even if that receiver is not designed to process such information, it would theoretically be possible send some sort of recognizable signal through it to the Nav computer to act as a trigger. Beyond that, the damage control computer would, by necessity, be connected to every system on the ship to monitor for failure conditions. In addition, the other three computers should be able to detect and/or set error condition markers for the systems they monitor and control. While nowhere near an efficient or traditional mode of communication, it could serve in a limited sense. The Cylons would be aware of, if not intimately acquainted with the designs for all battlestars thanks to Number Six's infiltration of the Defense Mainframe. Am I the only one who sees this as plausible? [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::Triggering a virus through DRADIS is plausible if it's ''already there'', but planting one that way is not. It must have come in through a comm channel (as Spencerian argues) or from inside the ship (as I do). None of the system failures in Flight of the Phoenix require a network to be in place anyway - once the logic bomb had infected the four sub-systems, it would procede to sabotage them independantly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:22, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::: As I said, I was making the fact that the systems were already infected a given. I was simply trying to explain the aparent coordination of the systems going down and how the Cylons kicked it into high gear, so to speak. However, the thought now comes to mind that, aside from the modifications ot CNP, the DRADIS control software could have also been modified pre-infection to enable it's use as a backdoor. (I know, reaching, but it floated to the top of my brain, so I go there...) [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:35, 8 January 2006 (EST)

==Image Discussion==

Okay, I had changed the Raider (new) image to a more accurate image of the raider (of how it really is supposed to look) but Merv changed it back. Instead of changing it back (which would predictably lead him to do the opposite) I leave it as a subject of discussion. I think the other pic, or at least that type of pic, is better than the present one, since it is more representative of the new cylon architecture than the set model, and it is also in its natural habitat. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006
:Actually you did the right think by moving the discussion here. Well, it's not in it's "natural habitat" this is a wireframe picture of a Raider; the skin isn't very detailed and "metallic" but slate gray, and look, the eye isn't even colored in ''red''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:41, 21 March 2006 (CST)
::What about this one? It's complete, because its the model Zoic used in the end.
[[Image:CyRaider.jpg|thumb|]]
:::Well, I'll just ask again which everyone prefers, if no one answes I'll proceed to putting this pic and seeing how it decelops.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

::No, Sauron, you're still just using a ''model''; it's the default one that Zoic sticks in, but the coloring is all wrong; please don't jump ahead on this one and "if no one answers proceed to use it" (you probably meant this less abrasively than it sounds). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:23, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::I prefer the screen capture to the render. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:25, 22 March 2006 (CST)

::::Well, what I meant with my comment is that if no one answered in a while I would just assume they accepted it., and therefore I would place it. Though I know this is an actual finished model (we see them the same in many times), I shall find a screencap then. I just don't like for the "set" raider to be seen as the New raider, since it doesnt't have exactly the same design, it is noticeably more round and squat than it should be (it is also not as metallic as it should be). --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

:::It would appear that Sauron18 is advocating for a picture of the ''video game'' Raider. You have to understand, that video game rendering is ''kindergartener crayon-drawing quality'' compared to a professional film-quality rendering. Everything is going to appear drabber, edge-ier (because of the whole thing with facets and polygons), and be distorted at odd viewing angles. Does this denote the "true" look of the object? No. Does this mean there is a different version of the object? No. ''Star Wars'' suffers from this crazed, ignorant fanaticism wherein the video game models are scaled/modelled/depicted in such varying degrees of quality from the original model they are meant to represent (in order to get the game out in a hurry, and/or keep the gameplay efficient), that certain "challenged" individuals get all frothy-mouthed and claim the video game objects as different variants of the object. Soon, you've got fifty different TIE fighters in the SW Universe, all because the rendering of the panels is slightly different from game to game.

:::Big frakkin' deal. A TIE is a TIE is a TIE. Same here... a Raider is a Raider... is a Raider.

:::Now, pardon my rant, but it leads into... I don't consider video game depictions as "official canon". Peripheral, supplemental canon, or canon-taken-with-a-disclaimer, perhaps. With that said, I don't think a rendering from the video game should be used to be the "official representation" of an object like the Raider. The screen capture should be used, or, if you want it to look cleaner, the '''''official''''' for-screen Zoic model rendering should be used. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 09:14, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::::I don't think he means using a video game model but the Zoic CGI one. I'll see if I can find a good shot that shows it's shape well. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:31, 22 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Talos is right, I wasn't talking about the game one (don't know where you got that). I was talking about the Zoic model (the picture of which I posted). I too shall look for an on screen full appeareance. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

User:Gallion

2006-07-27T23:13:45Z

Gallion:

-CANADIAN
-PROFESSIONAL ARTIST (seriously)
-ALL-INCLUSIVE SCI-FI FAN...SOME OF THE WORST STUFF IS TOTALLY THE BEST.
-SOMEHOW I FIND MYSELF ADDICTED TO THIS WIKI...I CAN'T STOP..I'M EVEN EDITING STUFF NOW!!!!

Talk:Raider (RDM)/Archive 1

2006-07-27T17:55:16Z

Gallion: /* Concept drawings */

==New Article Structure==

I have edited this page only to include the information about the raider in the new series, moved all data from TOS raider to its own article and moved the video game raider to its own article under the video game ships category. I have put the main raider as the article and moved the "piloted" raider to the bottom as note, as it is not canon information.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 20:22, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

And can we get a new image of the raider, with it being in space, for the ship portal, and we can then put that picture as the main picture of the article, and move the one that is currently the main one now, in the article somewhere.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 20:25, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Concept drawings==
I have a question about the use of some of the concept drawings for the new raider. First of all, there are many concept drawings available here[http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/gallery.htm] at Galactica Station. I know that many of them are not related to the current raider. However, There are some really interesting pics of the brain and how it is connected to the ship, as well as a depiction of a Colonial pilot inside after the brain has been removed (much Like Kara Thrace had done). My question is, are we able to use these images in this article? I would like to see some imagery around the design of the raider and it's internal structure. What do people think of this? I'm not even sure if we can use these pics, but if they are original drawings for the series...wouldn't that fall under fair use?--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 08:03, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:While I agree the pics are very cool and give a great insight we have to remember that concept art is just that... Concept. Concept art does not always relate to the final product so isnt really [[canon]] in the RDM universe. Perhaps they could be added to the gallery provided a notice on the canonicity is provided alongside it on the image page? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:46, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:: I truly agree with the fact that they are not canon per-se, but under the special notice you had mentioned, I think it might be a nice minor addition. I'll wait a while before I do anything of course, just to see what people are thinking, and if people are in favour of adding them to the gallery with the afore mentioned canonicity note, then I'll go about getting it started.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:37, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

:::Some of those concept art drawings don't even look like the final Raider design. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])

:::: Oh, This is very true, I would propose only to include the ones that reference the brain and the Colonial Pilot in said brain cavity. Specifically this one I guess: [http://www.galacticastation.com/Gallery/Artwork/raiderintart40dv.htm]--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:51, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

==Piloted Raiders==
Is there anything at all from the re-imagined series about a early piloted raider, or is this just speculation? --Glenmcbeth

:Well, in the Mini-series before they engage the NEW Cylon Raiders for the first time, the pilots are chattering over their radios and say that no one has seen the Cylons in 40 years, so they don't know how their ships will look different now--->one guy points out (accurately) that the basic design should be that of a 'flying wing'; so it's implied they were thinking of the old ones. That, and I think a model of one of the old ones was seen in the Galactica-musuem; anyway, when they see the NEW Raiders for the first time, a pilot reacts in shock that "no one's flying it!"; the "head" part was too small to have a Cylon Centurion sitting inside of it flying it; this would seem to imply that the OLD Raiders were exactly like TOS ones: with a Cylon flying them. ---Ricimer, 22, Sept, 2005

:: I don't know that that's enough to warrant mentioning that they were piloted by three Centurians and all the details that we have. I think it would be best to make "Cylong Raider (RDM)" nearly entirely about the autonomous Raiders we see so frequently in the series with perhaps a note in the Notes section mentioning that pilots expressed surprise that no one was piloting them and what their comments were, exactly, about the flying wing deal. Let the reader decide. I don't like displaying a picture at all. The museum was a nod to TOS, and I don't think it counts as precisely canon. Obviously, in the early stages of the first Cylon War, the Cylons were the same as built by the Colonials and were flying Colonial craft, but by the time it got to where they were working out of Basestars, I imagine they were manufacturing their own craft, too, so there's no reason to think that the craft the pilots were thinking of was Colonial in origin at all. I also dislike the mention of common tactics... That's never been mentioned on-screen in RDM at all, I don't think. --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:20, 19 January 2006 (EST)

==Split?==
This needs to be split into three articles - one for TOS, and one each for the piloted and autonomous RDM models. Anybody have ideas for article titles?

Additionally, should this be "Cylon Raider" or just "Raider"? We don't call them Colonial Vipers, after all. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:49, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:I agree that "Raider" should suffice. "Cylon Raider" might be necessary if we needed to distinguish it from a Colonial model. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:06, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:: Definately split into (TOS) and (RDM) name spaces. I think we could stick with the name Cylon Raider. I think they've called them that several times in the series and I take it to be the more "official" name (from the Colonial POV. Maybe the Cylons call them Daggits. Who knows?) --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:20, 19 January 2006 (EST)

i ahve deleted the tos cylon raider information off page and directed users to the main tos raider article. we should continue with this, and do the same with the video game raider.--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 19:27, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:Is [[Cylon Raider]] to become a disambation page? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:36, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

No i have just moved it to a new name space to rdm, so we are still retaining it, but just moved it to a new name space--[[User:Lgamser|Lgamser]] 19:43, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
:k. Tons of edits on pages that link to [[Cylon Raider]]. That's why I ask before I start going through the pages that have them. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:46, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

I think we need to fix this split: now there's no piloted Raider info at all. Yes, we know from the Miniseries that old Piloted Raiders look like TOS Raiders, and Ripper in the Miniseries seemed surprised that they ''were not'' piloted, positing that the old ones were. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:42, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

==Virus==
Kahran wrote:
:''The new Raider is also succeptable to the same type of system-crashing virus which it has been known to transmit itself. ("[[Flight of the Pheonix]]")''
Not correct. First of all, we've never actually seen a raider transmit a virus. In the miniseries, they exploited a back door in the CNP to shut down the fleet directly; in "Valley of Darkness" we saw a virus but for logical reasons, it could not possibly have originated from outside the ship; and in "Flight of the Phoenix" we again saw a backdoor being exploited, this time in the other direction. Secondly, it is completely unsurprising that a Cylon agent such as Caprica-Valerii would have knowledge of how to access such a backdoor in her own people's technology. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:37, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I'm questioning a part of the reasoning here. In the miniseries, the raiders exploit the CNP backdoors and command shutdown of Colonial systems. Yes; no "virus" is transmitted there. But in "Scattered" we hear Gaeta specifically discussing an infiltration attempt--

::Gaeta: "Here they come. Cylons are hacking our network. Attempting to access our gateway." 

:Later, ''Galactica'' contracts a virus. Since ''Galactica's'' systems were never networked prior and never have used the CNP (which, combined with Gaeta's information, confirms CNP is still not installed), a virus is most likely to have come from the outside, that some ship in the Cylon attack body was at work in cracking ''Galactica's'' computer network and infecting it a'la the tactics used in Cylon War I. This does NOT necessarily mean that the fighters did it (although screen shots show Gaeta's firewall ''fail'' moments before he disconnects it). The Centurions that board could have installed it, but we have no information to confirm this, nor does this make sense. Such an infection would only affect maybe one subsystem since the Centurions could not gain access to all primary, now-again isolated subsystems. They likely could infect only one, and that infection could not spread. Same would be true if a Cylon agent were to install a virus; the isolated subsystems would make it too impossible to infect all at once without attracting attention (Gaeta's and the rest of CIC, that is). The Cylon attack body is the likely cause of the virus, since it affects many subsystems that are normally isolated and they had the means to infect through their hacking. A virus isn't "transmitted," but installed once infiltration is successful. Kahran's wording is incorrect. The sentence should say: The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated (Flight of the Phoenix)"--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:07, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::I'll reply backwards, since your last point was the most relevant one - "The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated" is true, but it's also ''obvious'', and therefore not worth stating. In fact, there is no computer system for which that statement is ''not'' true.

::Second, as regarding the events of "Valley of Darkness": Having two computers networked is not sufficient to make them vulnerable to attack. In order to receive a "virus" or any other sort of malware from off-ship, one of the components must have had a connection to the outside world via some sort of RF ("wireless") frequency. Thus, of the four computers Gaeta networked, at least one must already have been vulnerable.

::However, Galactica's entire design ethos was explicitly meant to separate vulnerable functions. There is no conceivable reason that any of the four systems Gaeta connected (FTL, Navigation, Fire control, Damage control) would need access to a wireless tranceiver. Therefore, the only plausible source for the virus was from ''within'' the ship itself. This does not present much of a contradiction - the simple fact of networking those four systems together would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:58, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::That's a good point, and one I purposefully addressed indirectly in the [[Computers]] article. We have to strike it up to one of three issues: (1) A retcon issue; (2) the mainframe computer (which may handle communications) is the most resistant to infiltration since it must ALWAYS have wireless up and running for fighter chat (DRADIS is managed through the Nav computer), or (3) the comm system is NOT computer-based or operated, but a hardwire system that transmits its data in a manner which cannot infect the mainframe in some manner. When other computers are connected to it via Gaeta's gateway (which also exposes the computers to the hardwired comm system network), the Cylons infiltrate by hacking the exposed ''gateway'' Gaeta created, not the computers. Yes, normally the other computers DON'T need or have access to the each other. But the ''gateway'' created was vulnerable because it's the comm system that's likely used to create one for the networking of the computers. Once the gateway was up, all but the comm system was vulnerable for reasons below.

:::In fact, a part of "Flight of the Phoenix" bears this speculation out: Gaeta has wiped the hard drives of ALL computers while Valerii is working on her unique virus in her head for the Cylon fleet. She transmits it out, but on what? All computers are down. This suggests that the comm systems (connected through her arm from the mainframe, which suggests it and the comm system also have a connection), while monitored through the mainframe, are not entirely computer-based since no computer was up to aid Valerii in hacking the enemy network AND transmitting the virus directly. Gaeta notes the transmission, indicating that comm was still up although the computers are still under restoration. In short, Cylons have never been able to hack ''Galactica's'' mainframe or comm systems, but once that ad hoc gateway was up, the other computers were exposed and the enemy had what they needed to hack in and infect. This doesn't explain the logic bomb, which I think is bad writing: how would it spread over a non-networked series of computers? It would mean that each computer had a copy of the bomb. But then, how would it activate? The comm/mainframe cannot be hacked and so cannot send the "execute" command to the logic bombs on the other computers, right? I smell contrivance, but its the best sense I can make of it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::I like the "Gateway attack" scenario (limited window created by Gaeta's jury-rigging), but it seems like all of these scenarios are running under the assumption that the virus/logic bomb infected the system from the outside. That may be the case (and Flight of the Phoenix seemed to prove that it could be transmitted that way, at least to the Raiders), but isn't it possible for ''Galactica'''s systems to have been infected from the ''inside''? With several potential humano-cylons on the loose inside the fleet, it may turn out that some of the computer problems have been done as part of an "inside job". I have NOTHING to support that, but I just wanted to raise the possibility (if it hadn't already been mentioned). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:06, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::This is what I've been saying all along. Am I not speaking english? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:29, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Didn't see that little bit right there at the end... "would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect" or perhaps I read it as an external attacker. I'm guessing that possibility is generally being overlooked in favor of the more straightforward external network attack. I hope that this angle is explored more and not left to speculation, as I don't think that it can be definitely proven how the system was compromised. (Which is what you've been saying this whole time. At least the message has spread one person further.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:46, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::I noted the possibility of Cylon agent infiltration, but again this requires the agent to individually infect ALL computers, or place an infection that won't replicate / install itself until/unless computers were networked. That's a whole lot of "if's". It's not that an agent infected the computers isn't possible, but based on what we've seen, it's not probable. We don't know if Biers is off Galactica, but she likely is. We don't know what the remaining agents look like. We do know that that Valerii said what would happen with the infection that did occur. It's even possible that her Galactica counterpart infected systems before she shot Adama. But that conflicts with what Gaeta watched during the jump calcs in Scattered. I just want some source that gives credibility to the internal hypothesis. (See, SV--we sysops are all having a nice, friendly discussion... :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:33, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::A virus could have been planted (through a hardline, onboard the ship) into one of the four networked systems during Scattered, and then spread to the other three in short order. I think it's actually fairly likely that there's an unknown cylon agent on Galactica - probably somebody of the lower ranks who we haven't seen, or else C-Valerii would have identified him.

::::::::For my sake, could you please try and restate the points in your second post, the one immediately after my reply? I have the feeling you're trying to say something interesting, but your wording is too confusing for me to untangle. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:56, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::Sure.
::::::::::* Since ''something'' has to be able to send out or match up command recognition codes, the mainframe and comm system work together, although comm (likely not a computer per se) can work independently of any computer system (note Valerii transmitting the virus code to the Cylon fleet in "Phoenix" although ''Galactica's'' computers are down).
::::::::::* I suspect the mainframe is inherently resistant to infection, or isolated from infection despite its role with the comm system. However, the mainframe's ''gateway'', which forms a network if other computers are connected, is not resistant. This is what the Cylons will hack into since the comm system is always up and routes data from it to the mainframe and the gateway. From the gateway a virus enters the most vulnerable computer and copies itself into others. Once situated, it begins its work.
::::::::::* The mainframe (which, as Doral said, may barely deserve the name of "computer") is highly resistant to infection or infiltration. It can also create firewalls to protect itself (Gaeta did this). It's analogous to the Mac OS X computers versus Windows computers today--both do the same, but one is designed well enough not to have infiltration issues as severely as the other. But even the mainframe can be rooted if given time; the Cylon virus adapts and learns.
::::::::::* An internal attack by a Cylon agent is possible but not probable. For what we know, all computers are centrally located in CIC. An agent would have to sit and hack or insert code into each system manually. This would require physical access that only a few have (this adds fire to the Gaeta-is-a-Cylon argument).
::::::::::* Barring plot complication we haven't seen, we are led (and only have evidence aired so far) that the virus attack was external. Otherwise, despite the point that humano-Cylons like to play with their prey, we'd think that the Cylons would have hacked ''Galactica's'' computers and killed the ship by now. Centurions never visited the CIC, so they're out as infectors, unless there was a fiber optic conduit for one of the closed computers they could've used to do so as they marauded the ship.
::::::::::* The "logic bomb" concept was specious; it couldn't travel through to the other computers (no network), and the system failures throughout the ship suggest that the computers fully control ''Galactica's'' subsystems like life support. Of course, the computers probably never fully cleaned, which makes more sense for system failures. Isn't that a network? Doesn't work. By the same token, for Cylons to activate the bomb from their fighter armada implies that Gaeta's ad-hoc network is up again and allowing hack commands to enter ''Galactica.'' BIG, freight-train sized science gaffe for the sake of plot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:01, 4 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::: For the sake of speculation, I'm going to state it as a given that the systems are not networked in any traditional sense and that the FTL, Navigation, Fire control, and Damage control computers are infected, and the Nav computer actually does manage DRADIS. Isn't it possible for the Cylons to have taken into account the fact that the ad-hoc network would be disabled before the virus could complete it's run, and build in contingencies for such an event? The DRADIS by nature would require a transceiver of some form. Even if that receiver is not designed to process such information, it would theoretically be possible send some sort of recognizable signal through it to the Nav computer to act as a trigger. Beyond that, the damage control computer would, by necessity, be connected to every system on the ship to monitor for failure conditions. In addition, the other three computers should be able to detect and/or set error condition markers for the systems they monitor and control. While nowhere near an efficient or traditional mode of communication, it could serve in a limited sense. The Cylons would be aware of, if not intimately acquainted with the designs for all battlestars thanks to Number Six's infiltration of the Defense Mainframe. Am I the only one who sees this as plausible? [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::Triggering a virus through DRADIS is plausible if it's ''already there'', but planting one that way is not. It must have come in through a comm channel (as Spencerian argues) or from inside the ship (as I do). None of the system failures in Flight of the Phoenix require a network to be in place anyway - once the logic bomb had infected the four sub-systems, it would procede to sabotage them independantly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:22, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::: As I said, I was making the fact that the systems were already infected a given. I was simply trying to explain the aparent coordination of the systems going down and how the Cylons kicked it into high gear, so to speak. However, the thought now comes to mind that, aside from the modifications ot CNP, the DRADIS control software could have also been modified pre-infection to enable it's use as a backdoor. (I know, reaching, but it floated to the top of my brain, so I go there...) [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:35, 8 January 2006 (EST)

==Image Discussion==

Okay, I had changed the Raider (new) image to a more accurate image of the raider (of how it really is supposed to look) but Merv changed it back. Instead of changing it back (which would predictably lead him to do the opposite) I leave it as a subject of discussion. I think the other pic, or at least that type of pic, is better than the present one, since it is more representative of the new cylon architecture than the set model, and it is also in its natural habitat. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006
:Actually you did the right think by moving the discussion here. Well, it's not in it's "natural habitat" this is a wireframe picture of a Raider; the skin isn't very detailed and "metallic" but slate gray, and look, the eye isn't even colored in ''red''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:41, 21 March 2006 (CST)
::What about this one? It's complete, because its the model Zoic used in the end.
[[Image:CyRaider.jpg|thumb|]]
:::Well, I'll just ask again which everyone prefers, if no one answes I'll proceed to putting this pic and seeing how it decelops.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

::No, Sauron, you're still just using a ''model''; it's the default one that Zoic sticks in, but the coloring is all wrong; please don't jump ahead on this one and "if no one answers proceed to use it" (you probably meant this less abrasively than it sounds). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:23, 21 March 2006 (CST)

:::I prefer the screen capture to the render. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:25, 22 March 2006 (CST)

::::Well, what I meant with my comment is that if no one answered in a while I would just assume they accepted it., and therefore I would place it. Though I know this is an actual finished model (we see them the same in many times), I shall find a screencap then. I just don't like for the "set" raider to be seen as the New raider, since it doesnt't have exactly the same design, it is noticeably more round and squat than it should be (it is also not as metallic as it should be). --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006

:::It would appear that Sauron18 is advocating for a picture of the ''video game'' Raider. You have to understand, that video game rendering is ''kindergartener crayon-drawing quality'' compared to a professional film-quality rendering. Everything is going to appear drabber, edge-ier (because of the whole thing with facets and polygons), and be distorted at odd viewing angles. Does this denote the "true" look of the object? No. Does this mean there is a different version of the object? No. ''Star Wars'' suffers from this crazed, ignorant fanaticism wherein the video game models are scaled/modelled/depicted in such varying degrees of quality from the original model they are meant to represent (in order to get the game out in a hurry, and/or keep the gameplay efficient), that certain "challenged" individuals get all frothy-mouthed and claim the video game objects as different variants of the object. Soon, you've got fifty different TIE fighters in the SW Universe, all because the rendering of the panels is slightly different from game to game.

:::Big frakkin' deal. A TIE is a TIE is a TIE. Same here... a Raider is a Raider... is a Raider.

:::Now, pardon my rant, but it leads into... I don't consider video game depictions as "official canon". Peripheral, supplemental canon, or canon-taken-with-a-disclaimer, perhaps. With that said, I don't think a rendering from the video game should be used to be the "official representation" of an object like the Raider. The screen capture should be used, or, if you want it to look cleaner, the '''''official''''' for-screen Zoic model rendering should be used. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 09:14, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::::I don't think he means using a video game model but the Zoic CGI one. I'll see if I can find a good shot that shows it's shape well. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:31, 22 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Talos is right, I wasn't talking about the game one (don't know where you got that). I was talking about the Zoic model (the picture of which I posted). I too shall look for an on screen full appeareance. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22 March 2006