Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-03-22T17:26:45Z

Galactageek: /* Predictions-part 2 */

== Promo Pics ==
Are [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/gallery/000aaqbh here]. Hard believe that's the last for Season 3. However, they may release a few more for this episode. At least there's the 2-hr movie between seasons. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:03, 27 February 2007 (CST)

That promo pic of Six, Baltar, and Hera appears to be shot in the "Final Five" room. Anyone else notice this? [[User:Paulmooreparks|Paulmooreparks]] 19:57, 28 February 2007 (CST)

: Yes, indeed I did. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:02, 28 February 2007 (CST)

::Baltar's been having visions of Six and Hera in the opera house since season 1, so it's not necessarily connected to the Final Five. Since this episode will reveal 1 or 4 of the Final Five depending on which interview you go by, there's a pretty good chance that it relates to them as well. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:16, 28 February 2007 (CST)

:::Am I completely off-base in thinking that that's Virtual Baltar alongside Virtual Six? Because the other photos of that episode show the "real" Baltar still quite disheveled with a thick beard while that Baltar is clean-shaven, not unlike Caprica's Baltar. Didn't Ron Moore say something about the two alter-egos being key figures in the last episodes of the season? --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 04:50, 3 March 2007 (CST)

::::Not really "off base", in fact I think that's the most popular theory in general. So unless we're all off base.....which is admitedly possible :P --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 07:37, 3 March 2007 (CST)

:::::If they are able to interact with eachother it would have significant implications regarding their nature. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 17:50, 7 March 2007 (CST)

::::::The virtual Baltar normally wears the unique pinstripe suit from the Miniseries, which I don't see here. I do believe this is a visualization and that is Virtual Six, for the Opera House doesn't exist. If the two alter-egos do somehow directly interact, some Serious Shit will ensure, but damned if I can really glean what. This is as big of a season stumper as season 2's cliffhanger. And, no, Kara Thrace will NOT be one of the Five. But it may be, in my guess, one of these three, although they don't realize it: Dualla, Tigh, or Gaeta. I still hold exception to the fact that what Three saw may be the five priests of the Temple of Five, who just so happen to have incarnations in the current timeline. (Note the monkey that exited my anus and is waving at you). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:44, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

==Predictions==
Well, it's early, and I don't care to step on Slander's toes, but I have forseen an event in Crossroads, Part II. The top 5 American Idol contestants cameo as... '''THE FINAL FIVE!''' --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:06, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
*I'd like to make a motion that all Predictions in Talk pages be deleted as they are assinine and serve no other purpose than to promote the person making the prediction. Predictions should be in Forums and chatrooms or discussion groups, not here.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:29, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
**Dude... they're friggin' jokes. No need to be so uptight. You're reminding me of Merv. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:07, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
*** Motion denied. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 12:04, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

OK. The purpose of a talk page is for ''brief'' discussions and questions about the article. Generally, the humorous "predictions" in other talk pages have not detracted from the talk page's purpose or grown in size, and honestly have given me a chuckle, although my feelings on the matter aren't the sole vote about it. Provided that we don't get into numerous predictions from many users to the talk page in some way, I don't see a problem with it at this time. If there's still a problem about it, a silly page could have a bulleted series of such humor if approved by consensus (although I doubt this would work, [[BW:NOT|we're not a forum]]). Sometimes, predictions are fun ''and'' on-topic: See [[Talk:Exodus, Part II]] where I made a good guess. Now, what's considered "funny" is very subjective. I don't think BB's jest is nearly as humorous as, say, the shining white Final Five being revealed as the ''Jackson Five'' or something. Jokes are OK. If it's a bad one, ignore the poster. If a talk page gets too long, ask an admin to moderate if you can't get others to end a pointless or irrelevant topic. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:00, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
:Damn I should've thought of the Jackson Five... --20:10, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

==the commercial==

hey the commercial has anders voice syaing "yeah we're cylons" WTF --[[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]] 21:07, 19 March 2007 (CDT)Snorkel378
:I don't know whose voice it is, but the line is definitely "It's true, we're Cylons". -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:12, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:At first, I thought it was Anders speaking, just because his face appeared at the same moment. {{spoilli|On subsequent viewing, I think it's...drum roll...Chief Tyrol!}} --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 12:26, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
::Read the thing linked below. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 12:41, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

==Predictions-part 2==

I was surfing on the internet, trying to find some spoilers (lol) for the 3rd season finale, and came across this baby: http://www.thetvremote.com/battlestar-galactica-season-finale-spoilers/ (huge spoilers, so don t go there if u don t wanna read em). So, the text reveals who are the 4 of the final 5. As we already know, without the websites help, some of the final five are living and working in the colonial fleet. The 4 that are in question have a past, and we even saw a few times their memories, and we know that they lived in the colonies for quite some time. That being said, the website isn’t really convincing. But then, we know that the final five are special. We don t know what they are, we could suppose that they are more than the other cylon models, much more. We could even think that they are some sort of gods, now that too being said, I can t help but to think that those final 5, being special could have been planted in the colonies before the attacks of the miniseries. There is also a thing about Starbuck and a thing about finding earth on the website. I don t know what are their sources but the text seems very interesting and gives some very interesting ideas. {{unsigned|DedMed}}

:Many of the spoilers fit with what occurred in "Crossroads, Part II," but it brings up many new questions, too. If true, the information completely wrecks or substantially modifies what we thought Cylons were and when they came about. It should be an interesting episode, to say the least. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:39, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

::HOLY FRAKKIN FRAK! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 12:54, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

:::The spoilers from part 1 were correct, adding some credibility. The really shocking part is that one of the alledged final five was around during the Cylon War (yes, you heard it right, the [[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]] is a Cylon, I'm surprised no one made the connection when we've known that she has at least a dozen copies since the miniseries :D). -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:27, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

::I kind of wish I hadn't read them, but I couldn't help myself. Goddamit! --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 12:26, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Talk:The Woman King/Archive 1

2007-02-15T07:08:47Z

Galactageek: /* Cylon sighting? */

==Programming Note==
As many in the United States know, the [http://www.superbowl.com/ Super Bowl] American Football championship game is February 4. For most in our country, that game is a holiday-like event with as much national pride and rivalries as the international World Cup championship games. Since any TV programming that plays alongside the Super Bowl won't get many viewers, it appears that the SciFi Channel chose to pre-empt ''Battlestar'' to the following week. Just to let you know before you search for a torrent of the next episode.

I, for one, will certainly be watching, as I'm a resident of Indinaapolis, home of the Colts and one of the teams in the game. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:48, 30 January 2007 (CST)

: Da Bears will win. End of line. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 07:16, 31 January 2007 (CST)
::Get the to see the Super bowl over the pond too :D --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:45, 31 January 2007 (CST)
:: DAAAAAAAAAAA BEARS. I'll miss my weekly Galactica fix, however :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:53, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:::Yeah, RIGHT. How'd that game work out for ya, BB? :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:30, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::::I had no particular feelings either way, except that my dad did a couple of Saturday Night Live skits about the Bears and my grandpa's a Bears fan. I heartily congratulate Indianapolis on their win :D --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:12, 6 February 2007 (CST)

== Wild and Crazy speculation!!!!!!!! ==
OK, OK, OK, OK! I know somebody is going to blow my last addition out of the water about the GateWorld crap but I just create a link to a page that has revealed some now confirmed data even though there is other unconfirmed data in the article. I wanted to create the opportunity for the reader to make an assessment for him/herself. I know, I know, I know the policies on this stuff, but I'm testing the waters.... --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 15:04, 23 September 2006 (AST)

== Title ==

"Woman King" is the title of a song and E.P. album by Iron & Wine. Maybe someone on the writing staff is a fan? --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 06:37, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
: Sounds to me like a play on The Pirate King. All these silly Hollywood types love Gilbert and Sullivan. I have no idea what the relevance would be, though. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 00:58, 12 February 2007 (CST)

== Concurrent with "Taking a Break?" ==

Is there any information or thought as to whether this episode takes place at the same time as the previous episode, "[[Taking a Break from All Your Worries]]?" It would make some sense, as this episode is rumored to involve Hera under the care of Dr. Robert, and Athena was in a rush to get a sick Hera to a doctor at the end of "[[Rapture]]." It would also explain where Helo and Sharon are during "Taking a Break," since they weren't featured there at all, with the seemingly urgent Hera storyline oddly dropped.

Of course, the idea of "[[Black Market]]" and "[[Scar]]" being concurrent came up as the second season aired, but that was disproved. This might just be a random idea. I guess we'll find out for sure in two weeks. --[[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 20:12, 29 January 2007 (CST)
:It might also explain why [[Robert|Doctor Robert]] is treating Hera instead of Cottle as he is busy with the interrogation drugs on Baltar. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:31, 2 February 2007 (CST)
::Keep in mind though, that Cottle is not on Sharon's "A" list right about now either. Probably, since he played quite a big roll in faking Hera's death and hiding the baby away...Maybe Helo and Sharon wanted to seek...a second opinion. Unfortunatly, if that's the case looks like he won't be a good choice!--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 09:54, 6 February 2007 (CST)
:::Another issue with my theory is the Zarek scene we've seen in the promos. If it happens early in the episode, the two eps can't be concurrent because the decision to have the trial came at the end of "Taking a Break." However, if it's late in the ep, the two eps might happen at the same time. Only about 30 minutes until we find out. [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 20:38, 11 February 2007 (CST)

== My Predictions ==

I've looked deep into my crystal ball this week, ''Galactica'' fans, and what I've seen will blow your minds and require a change of pants. I'll give you all a moment or two to go grab a spare pair of trousers. Got 'em? Okay, here we go:
*Helo beats the sweet bejeezus out of a frail old man who's just trying to help people through euthanasia.
*Athena, being a murderous Cylon deep inside, gets turned on by the violence. She and Helo conceive their second child.
*The trial of Gaius Baltar begins with thunderous applause.
*Tom Zarek!
*We see the first shots of the Cylon homeworld and learn how the Cylons are dealing with the loss of the Number Three model. Some models aren't taking it so well.
*We also learn why the Cylon fleets are spread so thin: Attacks from a mysterious external enemy have drawn the majority of the Cylons' attention for the last year and a half.
*Starbuck and Hot Dog take the Heavy Raider back to the Colonies to gather supplies. The Heavy Raider is able to make the trip in three jumps each way. When there, they're attacked by Cylon models they've never seen before and are brought to meet their leader: Galvatron!
*Dude. ''Tom'' motherfrakking ''ZAREK''.
*More guest appearances by the SuicideGirls. Quinne Suicide even has a line.
*Tigh whines about stuff and gets promoted. Gaeta whines about stuff and gets thrown in the brig. Apollo whines about stuff and gets promoted ''and'' thrown in the brig.
*Special guest appearances by Dr. Jack Kevorkian and Harlan Ellison.
*Did I mention Tom Zarek?
Should be a hum-dinger of a night. As always, you can place your bets with Bruzer or on my User Talk page. I'll see you all on Monday. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:05, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:Yup, bets can be placed on my talk page. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:48, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::Suicide girls? They're unboxing the [[Number Three|Threes]] already? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:20, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::LIke the predictions, especially on Tigh, Gaeta and Apollo. But what about Dee, Cottle, Caprica and Anders?--[[User: CoreyDanian|CoreyDanian]] 19.23, 8 February 2007
::::I hate to step on Slander's territory, but here's what I say -
::::*Caprica seduces Roslin and gets her to release Baltar because Caprica's become addicted to 3-ways.
::::*Dee and Cottle are having a secret love affair that Cottle is hiding from his other partner, Anders.
:::::--[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:31, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::::Cottle/Anders OTP. Looks like we got our crystal balls from the same wish-granting Gypsy, BB, because mine told me the exact same things. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:45, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::OTP? And also, you got your crystal ball from [[Dodona Selloi]] too? Cool! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 11:50, 8 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::As defined by Wikipedia, "One True Pairing -- usually used to denote a fanatical devotion to one pairing in a fandom, excluding all others; a fandom abbreviation referring to one's favorite fictional couple." It's a term from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_(fandom) shipping] community, which I use here for parodic effect, as I loathe fanfiction and everything having to do with it. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 12:41, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::Ah, so BSG has an official OTP and unofficial. Official, of course, being Six and Three. Unofficial, Anders and Cottle. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 20:21, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::: OTPs don't have to be same-sex. Someone could designate Starbuck/Anders as their OTP. There's also no such thing as an official OTP, since it's purely a fandom thing. Rule 34, however, states that there ''has'' to be Cottle/Anders slashfic out there. I don't want to see it, but it's out there. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:43, 9 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::I know the OTPs don't have to be same-sex, but I like thinking about a Three/Six OTP :D --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:00, 9 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::: I think that makes a whole wiki full of us. Mmm... (We need more women here, to keep us in line.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:07, 13 February 2007 (CST)

== podcast already up ==
The podcast is already up. Isn't that silly?
http://media.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/mp3/314/bsg_ep314_FULL.mp3 [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 13:40, 8 February 2007 (CST)

== What episode is that from? ==
In the "Previously on Battlestar Galactica" segment, Helo was transferred to take care of the civvies who come on Galactica. What episode is that from? [[User:Moo|Moo]] 21:46, 11 February 2007 (CST)
:Just another "Previously Retcon." They do those from time to time, like in "Resurrection Ship, Part 1," where they "Previously-ed" a scene cut from "Pegasus." It's a way of setting up the story quick and easy, without the clunkery of exposition in the teaser. This one was pretty obvious, as the sound quality of Chief saying it was very tinny.

That it's a recap retcon is obvious. I think Moo is simply asking what episode the footage was cut from. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 00:34, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:I'd assume EoJ or Passage. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 06:02, 12 February 2007 (CST)

I propose that we refer to these incidents as "prevcons." --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:15, 12 February 2007 (CST)

== Ep. Summary word choice - racism/prejudice ==

Can I propose to use the words prejudice and discrimination to describe the persecution of the Sagittarons in the episode summary? Using the word "racism" just doesn't seem accurate. I just don't think of topics like religious belief or planet-of-origin as race-related. Zarek, Dualla, and Mrs. King all seem to be of varying ethnic backgrounds, but are still all Sagittarons. I hesitate to edit anything on this wiki, and I just want to see if people think this word choice is worth considering. I may just be anal.
[[User:Murph|Murph]] 10:46, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:Right. It might be an allegory for racism, but within the show it's definitely not racism. Your hesitation isn't necessary btw. If you feel that something needs to be changed, go ahead and do it. It's not like this is a huge thing that will change an entire article --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:54, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::I am a little hesitant to make changes because I'm a new user and, until now, I've only corrected typos. Someone else did more work than me when they wrote up that summary, so I didn't want to start editing too freely. Just a little cautious on my side, I suppose. Take my love, take my land...saw Objects in Space on the old DVR (in HD) this week. Possibly my favorite episode of Firefly. But that's a discussion for another board. --[[User:Murph|Murph]] 11:44, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:::If you want to make a change this small, and you think it's the right thing to do, just do it. We keep a history of all edits, so if we decided you have totally screwed up a page, we can always undo your changes. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 13:48, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:"Racist" is the right word. Helo uses it himself: "This guy's dirty. I think he's a liar, and I think he's killing people because he's a racist son of a bitch." --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:25, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::A character said it; that doesn't make it the right choice of words. Like real people, the characters on the show sometimes say one word when their intent was to say another. More of that sweet, sweet realism we love from ''Galactica''. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:47, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::For all we know, Sagittarons might be a "race" of humans. Racial boundaries on ''Galactica'' aren't as clear cut as perhaps they should be... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 14:54, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:::I completely agree with Joe. If coming from a different county/continent is how we define a "race" then I would certainly think coming from a different planet/colony is. We're all humans, no matter what your ethnic origin or skin color is. Same goes on Galactica. They're all humans, but there are 13 different colonies...and given the distinction that's been shown on the show before, it's analogous to different countries.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 16:05, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::::Based on the work we've done at [[Race and Ethnicity in the Twelve Colonies]], it's quite obvious that nobody in the fictional ''Galactica'' universe is remotely interested in skin color as a means of classifying groups of people. The means by which the Colonials place themselves into representative groups is overwhelmingly based on colony of origin. This has been pointed out many times throughout the series: Sagittarons (Bastille Day, The Woman King) and Gemenons (The Captain's Hand) are obvious; Adama dismisses the Taurons as "always acting up" (Hero), and Caprica seems to be in a continual position of prestige. The Quorum of Twelve, the highest legislative body in the colonial government, is also organized based on tribal affiliation. With all this in mind - the irrelevance of skin color and the overriding importance of colony of origin - it makes perfect sense that issues of race should be transferred over to issues of nationality, and the corresponding vocabulary with them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:25, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Unfortunately the cultural and national equivalents of racism don't have concise two-syllable English terms. I've heard bias against various cultural, religious and linguistic groups referred to as "racism" on many occasions. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:31, 12 February 2007 (CST)

My say is that I prefer the use of "racism" as opposed to "prejudice" because it seems to keep in line of the broader attitudes that are shown throughout the series. The dictionary definitions of racism and prejudice are as follows:

*Racism - a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others

*Prejudice - unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group

From a small scale, yes Dr. Robert was acting on his prejudice opinions towards the Sagittarons, but those opinions are coming from a racist POV. We've seen hints of this POV from others during the series, esp. with background info on how the 11 other colonies treated Saggittaron as their scapegoat, plundering the planet's resources for their own desires.

The reality is, esp. those of us who grew up in a USA culture, racism is always associated with skin color. Once you throw in the idea that racism covers other things such as religion, then everyone gets all uncomfortable because it seems less tangible. What we actually are seeing in the show is not so much of racism, but specifically, tribism, where one particular tribe is singled out by the others as being inferior.

So in my opinion, Robert is a racist(or tribist). His opinions and views on them because of New Caprica definitely are apart of him, but his actions demonstrate that he treated all the Sagittarons as an inferior tribe, even the ones who begged for his help and broke the norm. Why would he remain prejudice towards Mrs. King and Willie if he was just prejudice and not also racist? --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 09:46, 13 February 2007 (CST)
:The use of the term "racism" is most appropriate, with LifeStar's corrollary. I'm more for the use of episode dialogue to define terms, but, as with the [[Talk:Humanoid Cylon|Cylon agent/humanoid Cylon]] decision, what the wiki does to define matters may not necessarily be consistent with dialogue. For the purposes of being an encyclopedia, this shouldn't be, but I know that sometimes consensus overrides this principle. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:14, 13 February 2007 (CST)
::It is racism, as Helo said, because to a Colonial "race" refers to which of the twelve tribes someone is from, not to skin color. "Black" and "white" people aren't different races in biological fact, either. "Race" is a concept with no value other than what culture defines it to mean. A Caprican and a Sagittaron think of themselves as different ethnicities. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:05, 14 February 2007 (CST)

== Camp Oil Slick = Dogsville? ==

Is Dogsville a part of Camp Oil Slick, or has Camp Oil Slick been renamed "Dogsville", or is it a nickname? Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 15:31, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:Camp Oil Slick probably ceased to exist once the New Caprican refugees were relocated to other ships. Dogsville is in the same location, but seems to be comprised of people who got shuffled to ''Galactica'' after the loss of several ships during [[The Passage]]. Remember, we see the starboard hangar bay empty during that episode. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 22:32, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::I haven't seen "The Passage", but that does seem to make the most sense. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:56, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:::It's easily one of the best episodes of the season, in my opinion. I like that, though the fleet's population has dropped by several thousand, they're having to deal with overcrowding issues. I'm not sure exactly how many ships were left behind on New Caprica or lost afterwards, but it seems like the loss of even one ship is a huge blow to the fleet's people-carrying capacity. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:36, 13 February 2007 (CST)

== Roslin and the Internal Baltar ==

I was happy to see Roslin notice the dialogue Caprica Six was having with her internal Baltar. It makes sense in Caprice Six's case (since she's a machine and all) that Roslin wouldn't immediately chalk it up to idiosyncracy as she's apparently done with Baltar to this point. Maybe she'll finally see Baltar's jabbering for what it is too.
: Update! Podcast confirms it might have been in a script and isn't intersting enough to pursue. So, um, nevermind.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 00:50, 13 February 2007 (CST)

== Cylon sighting? ==

I can't be sure about this, but does anyone think that one of the coughing Saggitarians looks a lot like the Priest Cylon? (Father whatshisname)
You can see him on screen from about 5min 56 seconds through to 5 min 59 seconds. Could anyone with a high-def copy and some eagle eyes take a look and offer an opinion?
:It certainly looked like him, but the Colonials know about Cavil now so I expect they would have picked him up as the refugees boarded. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 06:04, 13 February 2007 (CST)
:Thought it looked like Cavil too but decided it wasn't since they didn't cut back to him.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:08, 15 February 2007 (CST)

== Information from the podast ==
I'm loving the "Information from the podast" subsection of the notes. Is it something that deserves to be broken out into a subheader, or put under the "Official Statements" (which usually goes empty)? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:19, 13 February 2007 (CST)
:I thought about that earlier. Official statements is a possibility.
:Though we shouldn't add all tiny details gleaned from it. Just the really important/big things. For now it's alright, but like some of the Questions it might become too much at some point. We'll see. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:44, 13 February 2007 (CST)
::Agree on moving to Official Statements. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:33, 14 February 2007 (CST)
:::Agreed. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 22:12, 14 February 2007 (CST)

== Zarek & the Saggitarians ==

I noted this under questions, but Zarek didn't seem to play any role in this episode except freaking out about Baltar and the Trial. I'm surprised he didn't show up to harass Helo, Adama, and Roberts.
:I was also disappointed, but realistically, the incident only concerned a small number of people as was dealt with promptly. Roslin and Zarek were probably focused on other issues. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:29, 14 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:The Woman King/Archive 1

2007-02-13T06:50:19Z

Galactageek: /* Roslin and the Internal Baltar */

==Programming Note==
As many in the United States know, the [http://www.superbowl.com/ Super Bowl] American Football championship game is February 4. For most in our country, that game is a holiday-like event with as much national pride and rivalries as the international World Cup championship games. Since any TV programming that plays alongside the Super Bowl won't get many viewers, it appears that the SciFi Channel chose to pre-empt ''Battlestar'' to the following week. Just to let you know before you search for a torrent of the next episode.

I, for one, will certainly be watching, as I'm a resident of Indinaapolis, home of the Colts and one of the teams in the game. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:48, 30 January 2007 (CST)

: Da Bears will win. End of line. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 07:16, 31 January 2007 (CST)
::Get the to see the Super bowl over the pond too :D --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:45, 31 January 2007 (CST)
:: DAAAAAAAAAAA BEARS. I'll miss my weekly Galactica fix, however :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:53, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:::Yeah, RIGHT. How'd that game work out for ya, BB? :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:30, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::::I had no particular feelings either way, except that my dad did a couple of Saturday Night Live skits about the Bears and my grandpa's a Bears fan. I heartily congratulate Indianapolis on their win :D --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:12, 6 February 2007 (CST)

== Wild and Crazy speculation!!!!!!!! ==
OK, OK, OK, OK! I know somebody is going to blow my last addition out of the water about the GateWorld crap but I just create a link to a page that has revealed some now confirmed data even though there is other unconfirmed data in the article. I wanted to create the opportunity for the reader to make an assessment for him/herself. I know, I know, I know the policies on this stuff, but I'm testing the waters.... --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 15:04, 23 September 2006 (AST)

== Title ==

"Woman King" is the title of a song and E.P. album by Iron & Wine. Maybe someone on the writing staff is a fan? --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 06:37, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
: Sounds to me like a play on The Pirate King. All these silly Hollywood types love Gilbert and Sullivan. I have no idea what the relevance would be, though. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 00:58, 12 February 2007 (CST)

== Concurrent with "Taking a Break?" ==

Is there any information or thought as to whether this episode takes place at the same time as the previous episode, "[[Taking a Break from All Your Worries]]?" It would make some sense, as this episode is rumored to involve Hera under the care of Dr. Robert, and Athena was in a rush to get a sick Hera to a doctor at the end of "[[Rapture]]." It would also explain where Helo and Sharon are during "Taking a Break," since they weren't featured there at all, with the seemingly urgent Hera storyline oddly dropped.

Of course, the idea of "[[Black Market]]" and "[[Scar]]" being concurrent came up as the second season aired, but that was disproved. This might just be a random idea. I guess we'll find out for sure in two weeks. --[[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 20:12, 29 January 2007 (CST)
:It might also explain why [[Robert|Doctor Robert]] is treating Hera instead of Cottle as he is busy with the interrogation drugs on Baltar. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:31, 2 February 2007 (CST)
::Keep in mind though, that Cottle is not on Sharon's "A" list right about now either. Probably, since he played quite a big roll in faking Hera's death and hiding the baby away...Maybe Helo and Sharon wanted to seek...a second opinion. Unfortunatly, if that's the case looks like he won't be a good choice!--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 09:54, 6 February 2007 (CST)
:::Another issue with my theory is the Zarek scene we've seen in the promos. If it happens early in the episode, the two eps can't be concurrent because the decision to have the trial came at the end of "Taking a Break." However, if it's late in the ep, the two eps might happen at the same time. Only about 30 minutes until we find out. [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 20:38, 11 February 2007 (CST)

== My Predictions ==

I've looked deep into my crystal ball this week, ''Galactica'' fans, and what I've seen will blow your minds and require a change of pants. I'll give you all a moment or two to go grab a spare pair of trousers. Got 'em? Okay, here we go:
*Helo beats the sweet bejeezus out of a frail old man who's just trying to help people through euthanasia.
*Athena, being a murderous Cylon deep inside, gets turned on by the violence. She and Helo conceive their second child.
*The trial of Gaius Baltar begins with thunderous applause.
*Tom Zarek!
*We see the first shots of the Cylon homeworld and learn how the Cylons are dealing with the loss of the Number Three model. Some models aren't taking it so well.
*We also learn why the Cylon fleets are spread so thin: Attacks from a mysterious external enemy have drawn the majority of the Cylons' attention for the last year and a half.
*Starbuck and Hot Dog take the Heavy Raider back to the Colonies to gather supplies. The Heavy Raider is able to make the trip in three jumps each way. When there, they're attacked by Cylon models they've never seen before and are brought to meet their leader: Galvatron!
*Dude. ''Tom'' motherfrakking ''ZAREK''.
*More guest appearances by the SuicideGirls. Quinne Suicide even has a line.
*Tigh whines about stuff and gets promoted. Gaeta whines about stuff and gets thrown in the brig. Apollo whines about stuff and gets promoted ''and'' thrown in the brig.
*Special guest appearances by Dr. Jack Kevorkian and Harlan Ellison.
*Did I mention Tom Zarek?
Should be a hum-dinger of a night. As always, you can place your bets with Bruzer or on my User Talk page. I'll see you all on Monday. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:05, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:Yup, bets can be placed on my talk page. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:48, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::Suicide girls? They're unboxing the [[Number Three|Threes]] already? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:20, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::LIke the predictions, especially on Tigh, Gaeta and Apollo. But what about Dee, Cottle, Caprica and Anders?--[[User: CoreyDanian|CoreyDanian]] 19.23, 8 February 2007
::::I hate to step on Slander's territory, but here's what I say -
::::*Caprica seduces Roslin and gets her to release Baltar because Caprica's become addicted to 3-ways.
::::*Dee and Cottle are having a secret love affair that Cottle is hiding from his other partner, Anders.
:::::--[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:31, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::::Cottle/Anders OTP. Looks like we got our crystal balls from the same wish-granting Gypsy, BB, because mine told me the exact same things. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:45, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::OTP? And also, you got your crystal ball from [[Dodona Selloi]] too? Cool! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 11:50, 8 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::As defined by Wikipedia, "One True Pairing -- usually used to denote a fanatical devotion to one pairing in a fandom, excluding all others; a fandom abbreviation referring to one's favorite fictional couple." It's a term from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_(fandom) shipping] community, which I use here for parodic effect, as I loathe fanfiction and everything having to do with it. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 12:41, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::Ah, so BSG has an official OTP and unofficial. Official, of course, being Six and Three. Unofficial, Anders and Cottle. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 20:21, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::: OTPs don't have to be same-sex. Someone could designate Starbuck/Anders as their OTP. There's also no such thing as an official OTP, since it's purely a fandom thing. Rule 34, however, states that there ''has'' to be Cottle/Anders slashfic out there. I don't want to see it, but it's out there. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:43, 9 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::I know the OTPs don't have to be same-sex, but I like thinking about a Three/Six OTP :D --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:00, 9 February 2007 (CST)

== podcast already up ==
The podcast is already up. Isn't that silly?
http://media.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/mp3/314/bsg_ep314_FULL.mp3 [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 13:40, 8 February 2007 (CST)

== What episode is that from? ==
In the "Previously on Battlestar Galactica" segment, Helo was transferred to take care of the civvies who come on Galactica. What episode is that from? [[User:Moo|Moo]] 21:46, 11 February 2007 (CST)
:Just another "Previously Retcon." They do those from time to time, like in "Resurrection Ship, Part 1," where they "Previously-ed" a scene cut from "Pegasus." It's a way of setting up the story quick and easy, without the clunkery of exposition in the teaser. This one was pretty obvious, as the sound quality of Chief saying it was very tinny.

That it's a recap retcon is obvious. I think Moo is simply asking what episode the footage was cut from. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 00:34, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:I'd assume EoJ or Passage. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 06:02, 12 February 2007 (CST)

I propose that we refer to these incidents as "prevcons." --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:15, 12 February 2007 (CST)

== Ep. Summary word choice - racism/prejudice ==

Can I propose to use the words prejudice and discrimination to describe the persecution of the Sagittarons in the episode summary? Using the word "racism" just doesn't seem accurate. I just don't think of topics like religious belief or planet-of-origin as race-related. Zarek, Dualla, and Mrs. King all seem to be of varying ethnic backgrounds, but are still all Sagittarons. I hesitate to edit anything on this wiki, and I just want to see if people think this word choice is worth considering. I may just be anal.
[[User:Murph|Murph]] 10:46, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:Right. It might be an allegory for racism, but within the show it's definitely not racism. Your hesitation isn't necessary btw. If you feel that something needs to be changed, go ahead and do it. It's not like this is a huge thing that will change an entire article --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:54, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::I am a little hesitant to make changes because I'm a new user and, until now, I've only corrected typos. Someone else did more work than me when they wrote up that summary, so I didn't want to start editing too freely. Just a little cautious on my side, I suppose. Take my love, take my land...saw Objects in Space on the old DVR (in HD) this week. Possibly my favorite episode of Firefly. But that's a discussion for another board. --[[User:Murph|Murph]] 11:44, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:::If you want to make a change this small, and you think it's the right thing to do, just do it. We keep a history of all edits, so if we decided you have totally screwed up a page, we can always undo your changes. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 13:48, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:"Racist" is the right word. Helo uses it himself: "This guy's dirty. I think he's a liar, and I think he's killing people because he's a racist son of a bitch." --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:25, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::A character said it; that doesn't make it the right choice of words. Like real people, the characters on the show sometimes say one word when their intent was to say another. More of that sweet, sweet realism we love from ''Galactica''. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:47, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::For all we know, Sagittarons might be a "race" of humans. Racial boundaries on ''Galactica'' aren't as clear cut as perhaps they should be... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 14:54, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:::I completely agree with Joe. If coming from a different county/continent is how we define a "race" then I would certainly think coming from a different planet/colony is. We're all humans, no matter what your ethnic origin or skin color is. Same goes on Galactica. They're all humans, but there are 13 different colonies...and given the distinction that's been shown on the show before, it's analogous to different countries.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 16:05, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::::Based on the work we've done at [[Race and Ethnicity in the Twelve Colonies]], it's quite obvious that nobody in the fictional ''Galactica'' universe is remotely interested in skin color as a means of classifying groups of people. The means by which the Colonials place themselves into representative groups is overwhelmingly based on colony of origin. This has been pointed out many times throughout the series: Sagittarons (Bastille Day, The Woman King) and Gemenons (The Captain's Hand) are obvious; Adama dismisses the Taurons as "always acting up" (Hero), and Caprica seems to be in a continual position of prestige. The Quorum of Twelve, the highest legislative body in the colonial government, is also organized based on tribal affiliation. With all this in mind - the irrelevance of skin color and the overriding importance of colony of origin - it makes perfect sense that issues of race should be transferred over to issues of nationality, and the corresponding vocabulary with them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:25, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Unfortunately the cultural and national equivalents of racism don't have concise two-syllable English terms. I've heard bias against various cultural, religious and linguistic groups referred to as "racism" on many occasions. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:31, 12 February 2007 (CST)

== Camp Oil Slick = Dogsville? ==

Is Dogsville a part of Camp Oil Slick, or has Camp Oil Slick been renamed "Dogsville", or is it a nickname? Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 15:31, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:Camp Oil Slick probably ceased to exist once the New Caprican refugees were relocated to other ships. Dogsville is in the same location, but seems to be comprised of people who got shuffled to ''Galactica'' after the loss of several ships during [[The Passage]]. Remember, we see the starboard hangar bay empty during that episode. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 22:32, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::I haven't seen "The Passage", but that does seem to make the most sense. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:56, 12 February 2007 (CST)

== Roslin and the Internal Baltar ==

I was happy to see Roslin notice the dialogue Caprica Six was having with her internal Baltar. It makes sense in Caprice Six's case (since she's a machine and all) that Roslin wouldn't immediately chalk it up to idiosyncracy as she's apparently done with Baltar to this point. Maybe she'll finally see Baltar's jabbering for what it is too.
: Update! Podcast confirms it might have been in a script and isn't intersting enough to pursue. So, um, nevermind.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 00:50, 13 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:The Woman King/Archive 1

2007-02-13T01:14:06Z

Galactageek: /* Roslin and the Internal Baltar */

==Programming Note==
As many in the United States know, the [http://www.superbowl.com/ Super Bowl] American Football championship game is February 4. For most in our country, that game is a holiday-like event with as much national pride and rivalries as the international World Cup championship games. Since any TV programming that plays alongside the Super Bowl won't get many viewers, it appears that the SciFi Channel chose to pre-empt ''Battlestar'' to the following week. Just to let you know before you search for a torrent of the next episode.

I, for one, will certainly be watching, as I'm a resident of Indinaapolis, home of the Colts and one of the teams in the game. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:48, 30 January 2007 (CST)

: Da Bears will win. End of line. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 07:16, 31 January 2007 (CST)
::Get the to see the Super bowl over the pond too :D --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:45, 31 January 2007 (CST)
:: DAAAAAAAAAAA BEARS. I'll miss my weekly Galactica fix, however :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:53, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:::Yeah, RIGHT. How'd that game work out for ya, BB? :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:30, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::::I had no particular feelings either way, except that my dad did a couple of Saturday Night Live skits about the Bears and my grandpa's a Bears fan. I heartily congratulate Indianapolis on their win :D --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:12, 6 February 2007 (CST)

== Wild and Crazy speculation!!!!!!!! ==
OK, OK, OK, OK! I know somebody is going to blow my last addition out of the water about the GateWorld crap but I just create a link to a page that has revealed some now confirmed data even though there is other unconfirmed data in the article. I wanted to create the opportunity for the reader to make an assessment for him/herself. I know, I know, I know the policies on this stuff, but I'm testing the waters.... --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 15:04, 23 September 2006 (AST)

== Title ==

"Woman King" is the title of a song and E.P. album by Iron & Wine. Maybe someone on the writing staff is a fan? --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 06:37, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
: Sounds to me like a play on The Pirate King. All these silly Hollywood types love Gilbert and Sullivan. I have no idea what the relevance would be, though. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 00:58, 12 February 2007 (CST)

== Concurrent with "Taking a Break?" ==

Is there any information or thought as to whether this episode takes place at the same time as the previous episode, "[[Taking a Break from All Your Worries]]?" It would make some sense, as this episode is rumored to involve Hera under the care of Dr. Robert, and Athena was in a rush to get a sick Hera to a doctor at the end of "[[Rapture]]." It would also explain where Helo and Sharon are during "Taking a Break," since they weren't featured there at all, with the seemingly urgent Hera storyline oddly dropped.

Of course, the idea of "[[Black Market]]" and "[[Scar]]" being concurrent came up as the second season aired, but that was disproved. This might just be a random idea. I guess we'll find out for sure in two weeks. --[[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 20:12, 29 January 2007 (CST)
:It might also explain why [[Robert|Doctor Robert]] is treating Hera instead of Cottle as he is busy with the interrogation drugs on Baltar. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:31, 2 February 2007 (CST)
::Keep in mind though, that Cottle is not on Sharon's "A" list right about now either. Probably, since he played quite a big roll in faking Hera's death and hiding the baby away...Maybe Helo and Sharon wanted to seek...a second opinion. Unfortunatly, if that's the case looks like he won't be a good choice!--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 09:54, 6 February 2007 (CST)
:::Another issue with my theory is the Zarek scene we've seen in the promos. If it happens early in the episode, the two eps can't be concurrent because the decision to have the trial came at the end of "Taking a Break." However, if it's late in the ep, the two eps might happen at the same time. Only about 30 minutes until we find out. [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 20:38, 11 February 2007 (CST)

== My Predictions ==

I've looked deep into my crystal ball this week, ''Galactica'' fans, and what I've seen will blow your minds and require a change of pants. I'll give you all a moment or two to go grab a spare pair of trousers. Got 'em? Okay, here we go:
*Helo beats the sweet bejeezus out of a frail old man who's just trying to help people through euthanasia.
*Athena, being a murderous Cylon deep inside, gets turned on by the violence. She and Helo conceive their second child.
*The trial of Gaius Baltar begins with thunderous applause.
*Tom Zarek!
*We see the first shots of the Cylon homeworld and learn how the Cylons are dealing with the loss of the Number Three model. Some models aren't taking it so well.
*We also learn why the Cylon fleets are spread so thin: Attacks from a mysterious external enemy have drawn the majority of the Cylons' attention for the last year and a half.
*Starbuck and Hot Dog take the Heavy Raider back to the Colonies to gather supplies. The Heavy Raider is able to make the trip in three jumps each way. When there, they're attacked by Cylon models they've never seen before and are brought to meet their leader: Galvatron!
*Dude. ''Tom'' motherfrakking ''ZAREK''.
*More guest appearances by the SuicideGirls. Quinne Suicide even has a line.
*Tigh whines about stuff and gets promoted. Gaeta whines about stuff and gets thrown in the brig. Apollo whines about stuff and gets promoted ''and'' thrown in the brig.
*Special guest appearances by Dr. Jack Kevorkian and Harlan Ellison.
*Did I mention Tom Zarek?
Should be a hum-dinger of a night. As always, you can place your bets with Bruzer or on my User Talk page. I'll see you all on Monday. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:05, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:Yup, bets can be placed on my talk page. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:48, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::Suicide girls? They're unboxing the [[Number Three|Threes]] already? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:20, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::LIke the predictions, especially on Tigh, Gaeta and Apollo. But what about Dee, Cottle, Caprica and Anders?--[[User: CoreyDanian|CoreyDanian]] 19.23, 8 February 2007
::::I hate to step on Slander's territory, but here's what I say -
::::*Caprica seduces Roslin and gets her to release Baltar because Caprica's become addicted to 3-ways.
::::*Dee and Cottle are having a secret love affair that Cottle is hiding from his other partner, Anders.
:::::--[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:31, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::::Cottle/Anders OTP. Looks like we got our crystal balls from the same wish-granting Gypsy, BB, because mine told me the exact same things. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:45, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::OTP? And also, you got your crystal ball from [[Dodona Selloi]] too? Cool! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 11:50, 8 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::As defined by Wikipedia, "One True Pairing -- usually used to denote a fanatical devotion to one pairing in a fandom, excluding all others; a fandom abbreviation referring to one's favorite fictional couple." It's a term from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_(fandom) shipping] community, which I use here for parodic effect, as I loathe fanfiction and everything having to do with it. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 12:41, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::Ah, so BSG has an official OTP and unofficial. Official, of course, being Six and Three. Unofficial, Anders and Cottle. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 20:21, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::: OTPs don't have to be same-sex. Someone could designate Starbuck/Anders as their OTP. There's also no such thing as an official OTP, since it's purely a fandom thing. Rule 34, however, states that there ''has'' to be Cottle/Anders slashfic out there. I don't want to see it, but it's out there. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:43, 9 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::I know the OTPs don't have to be same-sex, but I like thinking about a Three/Six OTP :D --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:00, 9 February 2007 (CST)

== podcast already up ==
The podcast is already up. Isn't that silly?
http://media.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/mp3/314/bsg_ep314_FULL.mp3 [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 13:40, 8 February 2007 (CST)

== What episode is that from? ==
In the "Previously on Battlestar Galactica" segment, Helo was transferred to take care of the civvies who come on Galactica. What episode is that from? [[User:Moo|Moo]] 21:46, 11 February 2007 (CST)
:Just another "Previously Retcon." They do those from time to time, like in "Resurrection Ship, Part 1," where they "Previously-ed" a scene cut from "Pegasus." It's a way of setting up the story quick and easy, without the clunkery of exposition in the teaser. This one was pretty obvious, as the sound quality of Chief saying it was very tinny.

That it's a recap retcon is obvious. I think Moo is simply asking what episode the footage was cut from. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 00:34, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:I'd assume EoJ or Passage. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 06:02, 12 February 2007 (CST)

I propose that we refer to these incidents as "prevcons." --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:15, 12 February 2007 (CST)

== Ep. Summary word choice - racism/prejudice ==

Can I propose to use the words prejudice and discrimination to describe the persecution of the Sagittarons in the episode summary? Using the word "racism" just doesn't seem accurate. I just don't think of topics like religious belief or planet-of-origin as race-related. Zarek, Dualla, and Mrs. King all seem to be of varying ethnic backgrounds, but are still all Sagittarons. I hesitate to edit anything on this wiki, and I just want to see if people think this word choice is worth considering. I may just be anal.
[[User:Murph|Murph]] 10:46, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:Right. It might be an allegory for racism, but within the show it's definitely not racism. Your hesitation isn't necessary btw. If you feel that something needs to be changed, go ahead and do it. It's not like this is a huge thing that will change an entire article --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:54, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::I am a little hesitant to make changes because I'm a new user and, until now, I've only corrected typos. Someone else did more work than me when they wrote up that summary, so I didn't want to start editing too freely. Just a little cautious on my side, I suppose. Take my love, take my land...saw Objects in Space on the old DVR (in HD) this week. Possibly my favorite episode of Firefly. But that's a discussion for another board. --[[User:Murph|Murph]] 11:44, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:::If you want to make a change this small, and you think it's the right thing to do, just do it. We keep a history of all edits, so if we decided you have totally screwed up a page, we can always undo your changes. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 13:48, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:"Racist" is the right word. Helo uses it himself: "This guy's dirty. I think he's a liar, and I think he's killing people because he's a racist son of a bitch." --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:25, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::A character said it; that doesn't make it the right choice of words. Like real people, the characters on the show sometimes say one word when their intent was to say another. More of that sweet, sweet realism we love from ''Galactica''. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:47, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::For all we know, Sagittarons might be a "race" of humans. Racial boundaries on ''Galactica'' aren't as clear cut as perhaps they should be... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 14:54, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:::I completely agree with Joe. If coming from a different county/continent is how we define a "race" then I would certainly think coming from a different planet/colony is. We're all humans, no matter what your ethnic origin or skin color is. Same goes on Galactica. They're all humans, but there are 13 different colonies...and given the distinction that's been shown on the show before, it's analogous to different countries.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 16:05, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::::Based on the work we've done at [[Race and Ethnicity in the Twelve Colonies]], it's quite obvious that nobody in the fictional ''Galactica'' universe is remotely interested in skin color as a means of classifying groups of people. The means by which the Colonials place themselves into representative groups is overwhelmingly based on colony of origin. This has been pointed out many times throughout the series: Sagittarons (Bastille Day, The Woman King) and Gemenons (The Captain's Hand) are obvious; Adama dismisses the Taurons as "always acting up" (Hero), and Caprica seems to be in a continual position of prestige. The Quorum of Twelve, the highest legislative body in the colonial government, is also organized based on tribal affiliation. With all this in mind - the irrelevance of skin color and the overriding importance of colony of origin - it makes perfect sense that issues of race should be transferred over to issues of nationality, and the corresponding vocabulary with them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:25, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Unfortunately the cultural and national equivalents of racism don't have concise two-syllable English terms. I've heard bias against various cultural, religious and linguistic groups referred to as "racism" on many occasions. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:31, 12 February 2007 (CST)

== Camp Oil Slick = Dogsville? ==

Is Dogsville a part of Camp Oil Slick, or has Camp Oil Slick been renamed "Dogsville", or is it a nickname? Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 15:31, 12 February 2007 (CST)

== Roslin and the Internal Baltar ==

I was happy to see Roslin notice the dialogue Caprica Six was having with her internal Baltar. It makes sense in Caprice Six's case (since she's a machine and all) that Roslin wouldn't immediately chalk it up to idiosyncracy as she's apparently done with Baltar to this point. Maybe she'll finally see Baltar's jabbering for what it is too.

Talk:The Woman King/Archive 1

2007-02-12T21:55:54Z

Galactageek: Roslin and the Internal Baltar

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2007-02-12T19:21:00Z

Galactageek: /* Everybody's a Cylon */

:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]

==Major Concision==
I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the [[Tory Foster]] suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.

As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.

I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain.

Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

==Interesting Info==
Read the [http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/30381 interview] below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" | We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character
|}

My take on the interview. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

:That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them.
:Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. '''I think''' that they've been boxed." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
:: That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
::: Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.
:Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I ''did'' meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
:Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's Mother ==
Can we start a discussion concerning [[Kacey]]'s "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when [[Starbuck]] and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP. -- [[User:GIR|GIR]] 21:38, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Jammer as Cylon speculation ==
I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page. There is little evidence that he is an Cylon. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon. Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all. Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator. He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon. He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials. In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon? What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically. He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him. Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP. Jammer was a dupe. That doesn't make him a cylon. The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon." And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things. The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
::Here's a concisement of my points:
Points against him

1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened? It's a valid question.

Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer). He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified. Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical. Have any of you been to high school? I did. I knew dozens of kids like that. And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion. She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation. This is not evidence.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.

4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death? And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive. He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple. He's right, not wrong. Not a Cylon. We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed. Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice? Not evidence.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

That's all the points made on the article page. The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident. And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon. If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.

Points for him

1 - His motivations are pretty clear. He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out.

2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP. You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.

3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute. How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon? Don't they just download?

4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.

5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.

6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor. I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)

So that's
1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
6 points that he's not a Cylon
I say he should be down to Low Probability.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

:You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:

:''It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon''
::As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.

:''Not Points against him''

:''1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.''

::No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on.

:''2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.''

::Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.

:''3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.''

::I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.

:''4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.''

::Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.

:''5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.''

::I agree, not a good argument.

:''6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.''

::Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.

:''7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.''

::This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.

:''8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.''

::Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.

:The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against.

:It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.
:--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this. I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section. There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon. So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be so strong.

To the points:

1. 'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?

2. 'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon. He's paranoid. He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one. Why not Tyrol? And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was: She should be mad at Boomer. Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander. He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.

4. 'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it. And he made valid points. Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before? No. As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task. Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do. I'd be pessimistic. His feeling were extremely valid. But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?

6. "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege? Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans? I agree with his statement. It is sacrilege. I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time. Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it. The kid is torn. And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort. His reactions are very understandable.

8. "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number. I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen. At least 50 is a good assessment. We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP. The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors. Jammer just happened to be among the survivors. I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck. It looked like somebody else. Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.

You know who Jammer is? He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details. He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better. He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show. In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.

Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated. Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot. Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should. D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet. In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer... The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.

You are right about what the writers may decide to do. Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline. Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon. So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.

:I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

::No, I don't agree. I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind. I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences. Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone". What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission. It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish. He was going to die! Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns? That was the point of that pass by. I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck. I don't know how you think that he's too obvious. He seems so typical of a kid his age. Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon). All these agents were planted in places of significance. Jammer... is a deckhand. All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places. And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery. The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect. In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility. The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon. This is in the least bit evidence. In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon. Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:as to the really minor point 3 (but hey, i'm totally anal :) -- i imagine we won't see a citation that defines "roll the hard six" as a pilot term. "rolling something the hard way" is a term from craps (gambling dice game), and refers to the low probability of rolling doubles, say two 3s on a pair of 6-sided dice (which is much lower than rolling a 6 any other way, and consequently gives a much higher payoff) -- ergo, the meaning as used by adama of taking a high risk to get a high payoff). i see no reason why only pilots would gamble on dice games. -- [[User:Piranha|Piranha]] 22:10, 22 November 2006 (CST)

::Well, at this point, the speculation's null and void 'cause Jammer's dead. If Jammer comes BACK from the dead in present time, then he's a Cylon. If he stays dead, not a Cylon, just a dirty Collaborator. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:52, 23 November 2006 (CST)

== Anders Speculation ==

While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.{{Unsigned|Mitchy}}

== "Cylon on Cylon violence" ==

At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of ''Downloaded'' was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.

At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. [[User:Damburger|Damburger]] 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person ''knew'' they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

::It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Her ''human personality'' does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:This entire statement of first Cylon-on-Cylon violence is false anyway. On Caprica, Athena (formerly Caprica-Sharon) killed one of her own copies ("[[Colonial Day]]"). The Cylons don't know about that because the Sharon in question was too busy looking at Helo to see her killer. Also, Athena uses Heavy Raiders KEWs to shoot the crap out of a squadron of Centurions ("[[The Farm]]"). But since Centurions don't download and the Heavy Raider is still in Colonial custody, the Cylons don't know that either. Also, the irony of the statement should be noted: only minutes after Caprica-Three says this, one of the Fives kills Caprica-Six. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:31, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::Well, you could argue that several times it wasn't really "Cylon on Cylon" violence, since it was all for the mission. Underlying intentions aside, before "Downloaded" Cylons did not kill/hurt one another for personal reasons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:44, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::It was self-defense, agreed. However, self-defense still qualifies as Cylon-on-Cylon violence. My real point is that while Three may believe her statement to be true, it isn't (but only Sharon and Helo know that). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 16:12, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Character Elimination. ==

I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.

At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.

:I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Um...could there be a middle ground here? Personally I'm fine with the dead characters being omitted from the humanoid cylon speculation page BUT I am bothered that they are included on the eliminated characters page. Most haven't actually been eliminated. They simply died and we know cylons can resurrect. To me this is a gray area and as such the dead characters should be omitted from both pages since we don't know either way. Cylons resurrect...death should not be an automatic disqualifier. If this is the criteria then (to be blunt) the criteria needs to be re-examined. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 05 February 2007.

::That's true, but they are not eliminated from suspicion by that so they don't belong in the "eliminated from suspicion" category. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:59, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:::No, they are eliminated from suspicion until they show up in "present time". They're eliminated because, just like Bill Adama, they cannot be Cylons based on our criteria at this time. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::::And why should the article reflect a bias towards it being unlikely for them show up again in present time as Cylons? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:04, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::Frankly speaking, the bias is required because any contributor's theory that dead human characters ''might'' show up again, now that the character has been shown on-screen as dead, is a form of [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking]]. This article is really a touch-and-go analysis that can be very subjective. Ellen Tigh and Jammer were strong suspects until they died. However, if we pretend that every possibility is a possibility, it reduces the wiki's effectiveness as a concise encyclopedia. "Dead" is dead and such characters can no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds, if ever. It will be preferable to leave dead characters as "eliminated." We have no further evidence to suggest they will ever return, and shouldn't speculate on death (that's another kind of wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:21, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::I would also disagree that a character's apparent death should result in elimination. I don't think keeping them a suspect is fanwanking any more than the entire agent specualtion page is. If there was good reason to suspect a character before their death, there's no reason to stop suspecting them after. You say a dead character can "no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds", but how do you know what's in their minds? Maybe there's nothing to change. Maybe they have always planned for Jammer to be a Cylon. His apparent death would do nothing to change that. I understand the concern about entertaining every possibility, but it's not as if this discussion is flooded with strong cases for possible Cylons. There are very few likely candidates.

== Tory Foster ==

* I'm surprised the possibility of [[Tory Foster]] being a Cylon hasn't been brought up yet on the article. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 15:05, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:The speculation article has lost some steam, given the point that there seem to be only 7 active agents: The rest may be [[boxed]] and "forgotten" per recent episode data. Foster hasn't any significant points for suspicion, save maybe [[Hera]]'s capture, and has been seen infrequently. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:08, 12 November 2006 (CST)

== Recent Rollback ==

I reverted edits made by [[User talk:Jettes|Jettes]] as they went against the consensus in both the talk page and article on the needed disqualifiers on human death and age. I have notified Jettes of this matter on the user's talk page. Age is a disqualifier when another character or event can substantiate it (Col. Tigh's age is a disqualifier because of his association with Bill Adama, and vice versa, while Cavil's apparent age would not be sufficient because no one can substantiate it). Death is a disqualifier because only a Cylon can return from it. If I've made any errors in this change, please let me know here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Galen and Cally Tyrol ==

Am I the only one who thinks their having a son isn't much of a disqualifier for either of these two characters? The Cylons had problems producing with each other and also had problems artifically impregnating humans. Karl Agathon and Athena were said to have mated successfully because love was involved right? If love between a human and a cylon is the linchpin to a cylon/human pregnancy then I see no reason that a second cylon/human pregnancy would not be possible (Baltar's inner Six said Sharon's baby was the first of a new generation...implying more were to come).

Also I think there is circumstansial evidence that lends credence to the idea of one of them being a cylon (I'm of the mind that one or the other is indeed a cylon sleeper).

Galen Tyrol was called to the temple of the 5 (hinted to be connected to the final 5 cylons). Galen suspected he himself was a cylon (Cavill wouldn't have seen him at the cylon meetings as he joked if the Chief was one of the 5). None of his backstory can be confirmed much like the majority of the other characters.

Cally shot the original Boomer who was a potential goldmine of cylon intelligence much like Athena later became. Cally was willing to get involved with, marry the Chief and bear his kid after he beat the crap out of her (her forgiving the chief would be semi-understandable if they had already been sleeping together but she got involved with him AFTER the chief attacked her. That's downright odd).

I'm pretty sure that son of theirs (Nicholas?) will be a second cylon/human offspring. If the 7 known cylon agents were working towards that goal then it stands to reason the 5 unknown cylons might want to do so if they were in a position to do so.

--[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 8:55, 10 January 2007 (EST)

:Hi, Meteor. For now, assuming that Cylon pregnancies are nearly impossible to create, the disqualifer still holds. But your points raise some interesting thoughts based on show history with the Chief. What if, instead of the Chief's family history in Colonial religion, that Cylon history has something to do with his attraction to the temple? At the same time, we have one counterpoint: the Chief has been with Adm. Adama's server for over two years, longer than what we have milestoned as Cylon agent introduction; any older and the possibility of being a Cylon is doubtful. I'll chew on this, but maybe we'll have a better idea soon, anyway. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:17, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Kara Thrace, Renewed ==

I moved Kara Thrace from the "eliminated" to "low" category after the rumor mills as well as the actor's comments about her character and the episode "Maelstrom" are indicating a plot twist. Not to go totally on the rumor (that's unsourced), there is the matter of the mysterious similarity between a painting in Thrace's apartment and the symbol in the Temple of Five. It's too similar. ''Something'' may connect Thrace to the Temple to the Cylons...but what? I added the photos to the article for comparison. (Credit to a contributor who noted this initially, probably on the "Eye" talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:35, 12 January 2007 (CST)
:Ausiello recently confirmed [http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/] that she is, indeed, '''not''' a Cylon. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:57, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::Yay! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:16, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::That's good. But she is ''something else'', I fear. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::All due respect, but what the frak else could she be? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:07, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::::POW. :-| [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:22, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::That's what I heard. Which I find quite interesting.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:30, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::Didn't she already play that role? ;) --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 01:06, 18 January 2007 (CST)
:::::::There's other possibilities. She could get badly injured like Adama from the end of season 1 to early season 2, or end up MIA like she was in early season 1 and Helo was from the end of the miniseries to the end of season 1, she could have a nervous breakdown and go AWOL, blending in with the civilian population, she could shoot someone she finds discovers (or believes) is a traitor or a Cylon agent, end up in a holding cell and not be heard from again until season 4 because she doesn't really factor into the plot of season 4's last 3 episodes. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:42, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Tory Foster ==

See the recent addition on Tory Foster.
:''"She is tasked, and fails, with ensuring the safe transport of Maya and Hera/Isis off the planet. Maya is killed trying to escape New Caprica with the child."''
Tory can't be blamed for Hera's capture: she put a couple of marines in charge of protecting Maya and her child and went on. Hera getting captured is actually a point against Foster being a Cylon: if she were one, she'd have suspected Hera's true nature and would've tried to capture her herself.

:''"Since this fortuitous event was possibly the only benefit that the Cylons permanently gained from their occupation of New Caprica, we should question if Foster truly tried her best, or if she tipped off the Cylons. However, it is unlikely that a targeted Cylon ambush of the Maya and her accompanying guards would shoot her while she is carrying Hera."
Here the article argues with itself, which isn't really a good thing. The only good point made here is in the last sentence: the Centurions fired upon Maya and her escorts, which makes Hera's survival a coincidence.

Lastly, there is a third point against Foster being a Cylon: the entire [[New Caprica Resistance]] knew exactly when Galactica would arrive, what buildings were going to be bombed, how they were going to evac the planet, etc. However, the Cylons were caught by complete surprise, indicating that no one had tipped them off. If any of the resistance members had been a Cylon, they surely would've done just that. (From this it can also be noted that Detention Center-Three was still alive and undiscovered at that point, since she surely would've told the other Cylons how Athena had taken the launch keys). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:55, 16 January 2007 (CST)

:I tend to agree. Unlike other minor characters, Foster's case is less than lower and has more coincidentals than suspicions or direct Cylon agent associations. I've argued this before on this character, which means that she is no more or less suspect than any other character not listed in this article. That is, Foster really hasn't much suspicion to warrant her presence in the article. Other thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:49, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::In my opinion, Foster actually has a *lower* than average chance of being a Cylon. The three points supporting that are right here on top of this section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:18, 17 January 2007 (CST)

== Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 ==

Since we have seen the 7 Cylons, any speculative Cylon agent would have to be a member of the so-called "final" 5.
(Oddly this is Baltar's term for them because they are the 5 he has not seen but the other Cylons use it too.)

The final five are not like the seven at all. Indeed, the 7 have never seen them and do not speak of them, it is unsure why they even know there are 5 of them, or even know that they are Cylons. It is just not clear what they know of them or why they think what they do.

However, [[Rapture]] indicates the final 5 are possibly powerful beings, dating back 4,000 years or more, and with much more advanced technology than seen earlier in the show. They may possibly be the creators of the 7 Cylons, as well as the lords of Kobol. This, however, is just speculation.

What isn't so speculative is that they are very special, and if so, they may well have been around since before the colonies were founded, and may well have highly advanced biotech making them able to have children where the 7 can't. They also would not be subject to the 4,000 year old virus.

As such, we can't say with much assurance that anybody is not one of these 5. Even though Adama is old, fought in the war, has children and has been exposed to the virus, he could still be one of the final 5. As could anybody, except for the 7. D'Anna tells Cavil that "there are five other Cylons, and one day you will see them." Unless what we saw in the Temple of 5/Opera House was her dream, and she's ranting (which would be disappointing) the 7 are the only ones ruled out.

However, there are other clues. For example, one of the 5, or their agent, presumably contaminated the food supply to take the fleet to the Algae planet for the carefully timed events there. Anybody involved in the incredible coincidences that, as Baltar says, "it couldn't possibly be by chance that both of us are here at this moment" is probably one of these hidden beings, or subject to their will. That includes Tyrol with his compulsion to find the temple, Starbuck with her mandala, Baltar with his inner 6, and 6 with her inner Baltar. {{unsigned|Bradtem}}

:The knowledge Cylon agents come programmed with could also include the model count. The podcasts also support the assumption that there's twelve Cylon agents. I doubt that the Final Five are over 4000 years old, however I wouldn't be surprised if the five priests of the One Whose Name cannot Be Told were the previous cycle's equivalent of Cylons. Anyway, characters who match the established pattern of known agents and our very limited knowledge of the Final Five are more likely candidates than those who don't. If someone who doesn't meet the criteria is proven to be a Cylon then the criteria can be revised. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:07, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:The final five 4,000 years old? They are '''Cylons''', which means man '''created''' them '''52 years''' ago (52 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], anyway). The idea of the 5 intentionally catalyzing the events around the algae planet is a nice one, though. The final five being 'special', as you call them, is every bit as speculative as saying they can have children. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::Remember: Only "Three" and Baltar assumed that an association exists between a temple built some 4,000 years before the Cylon even ''existed'' and the Final Five. We have seen only what Three has seen; it might have been a totally different matter if Baltar used the mechanism. As such, no, the rules of what a Cylon could or could not be must stand until we have overwhelming proof or specific criteria that says otherwise that redefines it. For all we know, Starbuck could be her own super-great-great-grandma, which could have been one of the faces Three had seen. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:18, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:::[[Laura Roslin]] also talks about a possible connection between the temple and the final five in [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]. If the [[Sacred Scrolls|Cycle of Time]] is real (which is not necessarily the case) then there's a fairly good chance that the previous cycles had some equivalent of Cylons (who may or may not have survived into modern times). I still think that the Final Five are just regular agents whose duties require them to operate in secrecy. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:05, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:::Not just Three and Baltar. The Hybrid is the one who directed them to the Eye of Jupiter. If, as they speculated, the Cylon God or some other powerful being speaks through the Hybrid, then there appears to be an association between the Final Five and the Temple of five. All we know is that Three stepped in at the magic moment and saw 5 beings, one of whom she knew and had wronged, which would certainly not be 5 long-dead Earthling priests. It may be in her imagination, but it also killed her, which is strong evidence it's real. Thus I have to say we can conclude little about the capabilities of the five -- the Cylon 7 certainly know nothing about them, even fear so much as talking about them (for reasons not established). It seems likely that with this fear and secrecy that it would be wrong to assume the same rules learned about the 7 apply to the 5. If Adama turns out to be a member of the final 5, or Roslin, I don't think it violates any principle we learned about the 7. Of course Loeben's claim that Adama is a Cylon should be baseless, as he has not seen the final 5 either. I think for now we should accept D'Anna's vision as probably based on something real, and that means somebody she knows and wronged is a member of a group involved with the Temple of Five, and which is also able to send messages through the Hybrid. This strongly suggests they are not beings that were created 43 years ago.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:17, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::Ron Moore stated a direct connection between the final five Cylons and the temple in an interview. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:39, 3 February 2007 (CST)

::::If the Final Five aren't "beings that were created 43 years ago", why do the significant seven refer to them as "Cylons"? They appear to be convinced that the final five are Cylons just like they are. Caprica-Six even says "there are twelve models", even though she's only ever seen seven. Also, there doesn't have to be someone speaking through the Hybrid, it probably just gave prophecy. I agree with you that the D'Anna didn't see a bunch of 4,000-year-old priests, and the Final Five being connected to the Temple of Five is almost certainly not a coincidence. But whoever or whatever the Final Five are, they certainly are Cylons, which means they were machines created some time during the Armistice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:38, 3 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Remember, all this has happened before. It's credible that the 5 are Cylons, but from an earlier generation. It's also possible that the humans are all actually cylons of an earlier generation too, which would fit well with the "happened before" motif. The 7 have not seen the 5, are forbidden to speak about them. We don't know what they know but it's not much. They 5 could be the creators of the 7, or annointees of the cylon God (the 5 priests are after all the priests of a lord who must not be named) It's possible the 5 Cylons made modified the temple just recently, but the parallels between the 5 Cylons and 5 priests suggest it is more than that. Since there is no time travel, "prophecy" from the Hybrid or Selloi or the rest is a communication from higher beings. That the Hybrid directed Baltar/Three to the eye of Jupiter strongly implies the higher beings/Cylon God wanted them to go there. If the Cylon God is real, it's likely more than 43 years old. Mind you, I am not as convinced as you that the final 5 are Cylons as the 7 think of Cylons. That is just what they are programmed to think, they do not appear to know it from direct experience.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:50, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::::No one said that the Cylon God is only 43 years old. Remember that the Cylon God is supposed to be God, not a supercomputer or Cylon of any kind. The five and seven are supposed to be all of a kind and while your theory about that is possible, it seems needlessly intricate to me. Also bear in mind that the 7 include Numbers Three, Five, and Eight, so the 5 and 7 must be interspersed in the numbering scheme, and that RDM has said that the Cylons made 12 models in the image of 12 human archetypes. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:25, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Cylon god appears to be a real, intervening being. The cylons are of differing theologies regarding him. D'Anna seems to call him "the one who programmed us" though at the same time we are told Cylons were originally programmed by humans. Right now, the fact that the 7 have never seen the 5 makes no sense. Nothing we have been shown even remotely explains it. On top of that they are forbidden to talk about the 5 by some strange concensus, enforced by Cavil who doesn't even buy the theology. At this point the Cylon god could be like the Christian god. But there's one thing, short of the hallucination explanation, that we do know. 5 figures, at least on of whom is a human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with, appeared to 3 when the 4,000 year old Temple of Five was activated -- a temple built by the 13th tribe (Earthlings) and described in the scrolls as being dedicated to 5 priests who worship one whose name must not be spoken. To a lot of us, this strongly that the one whose name must not be spoken is probably the Cylon god. Just what are humans on the fleet doing in that temple in the role of the 5 priests? --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 02:49, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::We don't know for sure that the 7 have never seen the final 5. It's possible their memories of them have been erased or blocked. We don't even know for sure that the figures D'Anna saw in the temple were actually the final 5. She thought they were, but Six told Baltar that he was the chosen one and that only the chosen one could see the final 5. We also don't know for sure that one of the five figures D'Anna saw is a "human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with". That's certainly the first thought I had when I saw her reaction, but we don't know for sure that's the case. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:42, 6 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::Indeed, we have not been given definitive information on the vision of the final 5. However, my point at the start of this thread remains true. We are explicitly told that even the 7 Cylons know almost nothing about the Final 5, and we're given various hints that they are special and quite possibly (I don't say certainly) beings that date from the distant past. Thus my original point -- the rules that we learned about the original 7 stated in the main page need not apply to them. It's not correct to say that Adama can't be in the final 5 because he's old and has children, because we know so little about the rules that apply to the final 5, and what little we know suggests they could be very different.
::::::::::I supposed it's possible that the final 5 predate the first Cylon war, and even the creation of the original Cylons by the Humans. If that's the case then they probably aren't really Cylons (at least not in the way we've traditionally thought of them). I wouldn't rule it out; there certainly have been suggestions to that effect, but it would leave a lot of things unexplained. For example, if the final 5 really are that different and that old, why would they even be counted in the same category as the other 7: "There are twelve models. I am Number Six." Why do we know Number Three? If there are only twelve models and the 5 are part of those and they were first, wouldn't they probably be numbers 1-5? I'm not saying it couldn't be explained, it just seems rather inconsistent at this point. Right now, I would have to say it's very unlikely that the final 5 predate the first Cylon war, but there is probably some connection between the five priests and the final 5. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:03, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::The secret of the final 5 is a secret -- even from the 7 revealed Cylons, that much we do know. They have some sort of reason (programming) to not wish to discuss them and seek them out, and D'anna's violation of that is enough to get her whole line boxed, a drastic and as far as we know unprecedented move. I suspect its programming because boy, would I be damn curious about the 5 if I were as theological as these Cylons are. The numbering, anyway, could easily be deliberately intended to deceive. They are special in some way, that we know, so their random number doesn't make a lot of sense from any perspective. Were there once 12 models all together? What made the 7 forget they had ever seen the 5, then? Were they created independently? That seems to be the only other way (besides memory erasure) that the 7 would not have seen the 5, but that means either the 5 created the 7, or a 3rd party created both for 2 purposes. The 5 have certainly seen the 7 (on New Caprica if nowhere else.) One explanation that has the 5 still be recent is the 5 priests or their lord are still around and they helped create the humanoid cylons or the 5 in particular. We still don't know how the cylons got their biotech. --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 14:16, 8 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::Couldn't the Final 5 be earlier messed up or aged versions of 5 of the S7? And D'Anna was apologizing to Cavil? Huh? Did I just blow your collective minds?--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:07, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::::Nope. To quote D'anna. "There are five *other* Cylons, brother. One day you will see them."--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:47, 9 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::::Damn the facts.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 13:17, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::I'm not saying it can't be, but the final five being significantly different from the surviving seven (significantly older, or progenitors of the seven) seems to go against some of the information we have. For example, RDM once talked about the twelve models being based on twelve human archetypes. That seems to imply a common origin/creation for the twelve models. That doesn't mean that's the case or that RDM couldn't have changed his mind. This is a stretch, but could it be possible that when the Cylons refer to the "final five", they are ''not'' talking about the five models unknown to the colonials? Could the number five just be a coincidence? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 14:40, 9 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::::The twelve archetypes (which is BS anyway) go back much further than the Cylons. Anyway, I don't see how it can be that "All this has happened before" if these Cylons are the very first Cylons. The Kobolians and the Earthlings appear to have much more advanced technology than the colonials have now or had at the time of the creation of the toaster models. It would be very odd to me (not just because of the scrolls) if the show's Cylons are the first Cylons. What we had not seen until the Temple of Five was a definite connection between the earlier generation beings and the modern Cylons and their final 5. Now we have one, unless it was a hallucination. The final 5 have some big secret, and we don't know what it is, but it seems to be related to the Kobol or Earth eras.
:Why has no one suggested the priestess/shaman lady that interpreted d'anna's dreams in the first part of the season? She seems to fit the bill as the most suspicious person yet. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 23:28, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::A lot of people have probable suspected her from the start of the final five plotline. Maybe there's some kind of unwritten rule about focusing speculation on recurring characters. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:58, 6 February 2007 (CST)

==Two years?==

Ok a lot of this article hinges on the assumption that cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years prior to the destruction of the colonies. Where in the mini is this explained? I remember the vision of Six in Baltar's head something about them sleeping together for two years but I don't remember any evidence to support the claim that the humanoid cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years. Is there anything else to back up the claim? --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 1 February 2007.
:In "[[The Farm]]", after Boomer's death, Adama says: "She was a vital, living person… aboard my ship for almost two years."
:The notion that Caprica-Six's relationship with Baltar and Boomer's service on ''Galactica'' began at the same time was taken as too great a coincidence to ignore. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:41, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::But it should be noted that Boomer probably attended a Colonial military academy for some years prior to her assignment to ''Galactica''. So while she served on the ship for two years, the length her military service is probably closer to 5. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:45, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Boomer is a Cylon. We don't know for sure if she ever ''existed'' with the Colonial Fleet prior to the two-year mark. The two-year mark is also noted by Caprica-Six when speaking to the downloaded, in-denial Boomer in "Downloaded." Her training, like her memories of her parents, were part of her sleeper agent programming. Credentials as a Colonial officer, including any past assignments in it, can also be falsified; we ''are'' dealing with people who are literally computers, after all and can make this stuff up. The two-year mark is not an assumption and is well-established; we don't know if they were integrated any earlier, but we know at least two years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:10, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::::I was mainly thinking about her records. That she wouldn't just be assigned out of the blue. Yeah, they could be falsified, but I have the impression that the Cylons had only infiltrated the defense network (through Baltar) and not the entire Colonial/military computer system.
::::And yes, the two years timespan is established. But that doesn't mean that the infiltration didn't begin even earlier. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:20, 1 February 2007 (CST)

== Article name ==

I don't want to start a huge discussion here, but IMO this is one of the cases where "Cylon agent" would have been fine, since all the characters would actually be infiltrators. But for the sake of consistency it's probably better to have roughly identical names --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:The final five might know they are Cylons but choose not to reveal themselves to Cylons/Humans alike, therfor isnt technically an agent of either side. Plus this page was already linked to on half a dozen pages already as a broken link where ppl had meant to put Cylon Agent Spec... I just fixed it. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
::Ouch. This is arguably the most painful series of changes I've dealt with here. Makes the whole Merovingian thing pale in comparison... <nowiki><teethbrace></nowiki> -[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:39, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Virus Qualifier ==

Given the possibility that Athena's immunity to the virus may have downloaded along with her, potentially making all Cylons immune, should the virus qualifier be removed? Or, is the idea that the immunity may or may not (meaning Athena is no longer immune) have downloaded with her too speculative at this time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 03:29, 4 February 2007 (CST)

:The virus qualifier is still valid IMO.
:# Athena's download was months after the events of [[A Measure of Salvation]]. The virus should've killed any member of the baseship boarding party by then.
:# Even ''if'' Athena's immunity carried to the Resurrection Ship and to the other Cylons there, keep in mind that the final five are not aboard the Cylon fleet, so they were unable to get immune. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:20, 4 February 2007 (CST)

::What about sorting [[characters eliminated from suspicion]] into "characters eliminated from speculation" and "characters suspended from speculation due to death"? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:03, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::Good idea, we're getting quite a lot of deaths these days. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:39, 5 February 2007 (CST)

: As only memories download into a new body, one can reasonably assume that the immunity did not, as the immunity is a ''biological'' reaction resulting from her pregnancy. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:23, 6 February 2007 (CST)

::I suspect that the virus was a one-shot plot device anyway. With the source of the virus (the beacon) destroyed with the basestar, I suspect that they (the writers) intended to bury it (rather than give the Colonials a doomsday weapon that they could continually ponder deploying). I guess we'll see... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:06, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::If i were a Cylon I wouldnt want to be the one to "test" it. It would be far too risky to attempt a ressurection of a virus infected Cylon just incase the immunity was not passed on. If they are wrong it could result in the infection of their entire race. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:39, 7 February 2007 (CST)

::I'm not sure how reasonable that assumption is. The virus is also biological in origin, yet it (or some effect of it) can be downloaded. Why can't the same happen with the immunity? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:14, 7 February 2007 (CST)

:::MAY be downloaded. As far as we (the viewers) know, there aren't any cases where an infected Cylon was downloaded and spread it. The Cylons were being cautious, and the Colonials were just running under the assumption that it might work. I don't think it's been firmly established that the virus even downloads. I mean, at this point about the only thing we've got is assumptions. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:21, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::My mistake. However, I still don't think it's reasonable to assume that the immunity cannot download. The Cylons may not ''know'' that the virus can download, but they sure seemed pretty confident that it would. If the Cylons think it's possible that the virus can download, then I don't think we can assume that the immunity cannot. I also think you're correct about the writers just intending the virus to be limited to that storyline, which is why I think it was one of the biggest mistakes they've made. It's really hard to believe that the colonials wouldn't have kept some of the virus around, "just in case." --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:43, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::::The colonials may not have the facilities to be able to safely keep stocks of the virus. the only known vessel of the virus was on the [[Lion's Head beacon]] which was destroyed when the basestar exploded. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 10:28, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::::I believe that virus downloading was established in one plot element: The Cylon Centurions, which don't use biologics, and the Raiders, which use both. Both items are disabled; the Centurions are autonomous and should stay running in part if separated from their mothership (see [[Fragged]]). Same for the Raiders (see [[Scar]]). But they are knocked out: this can only happen if there was a way for the virus to turn into a program that effectively becomes a transmittable computer viral code. We don't know if the same would be applicable to the humanoids, but its a very logical jump given that the Hybrid herself and all other humanoids on that basestar are disabled. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:44, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Raiders could have been infected in the hangar bays prior to launch. Centurions are more tricky and as a writer I would never have included them in the list. Personally I rationalize it in that they were somehow connected to the Hybrid and that its death at that moment screwed them up somehow (even if as you said, they can function autonomously if needed). Yeah, it's fanwanky, but it makes a lot more sense than a biological/technological virus. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:05, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Your supposition (and mine) is supported. Note dialog snippet from "Torn" below:

:Three: All right, we make sure that the resurrection ship is out of range, then we jump to their location. Send in a group of Centurions to make sure…
:Eight: No. The data set indicates that as soon as the Hybrid was infected, the Centurions started shutting down. We don't know how ours are gonna be affected.
:Three: I assume our Raiders and baseships are also susceptible.
:Simon: Of course. We are all created from the same genetic pool.
:Doral: Then no Cylon can board that ship without risking infection.

So it's implied that the Hybrids are in communication, if not in control of Centurions on the basestar (although we know they work autonomously as well). I think the Raiders were infected for the same reason. Note the juicy bit about all Cylons being created from the same genetic source. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:19, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:That is a juicy bit. They may subsequently regret having said that, but that's definitely pretty weighty. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:35, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::Perhaps the hybrid is the key. If she becomes infected perhaps she starts sending out malicious transmissions and kill codes out to all the centurions and raiders? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:40, 7 February 2007 (CST)

:Right. I think that line is why I developed that theory in the first place, but I forgot about it --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:45, 7 February 2007 (CST)

== Everybody's a Cylon ==

This is a speculation that violates all the rules, yet I've seen a number of people support as interesting on the Galactica newsgroup, do people feel it's out of place on the main speculation page:

Everybody in the show is a Cylon. All this has happened before. AI beings were created before, by earlier generations of humans, on Kobol or Earth, and those AIs rebelled and took human form. "Some of them are programmed to think they are human." In this case the "some of them" is the 12 tribes, created on Kobol, and then banished as a result of battles among their creators, their memories of their origins wiped or altered before they were sent out into the stars with altered sacred scrolls. Athena kills herself over it but leaves clues back to Earth for them -- presumably she was one of the main creators of this new race of artificial humanoids.

So the artificial humanoids, thinking they were evolved natural beings (though they have no evidence for that on their own planets) rebuilt a civilization, and then created their own AI robots which rebelled. (Possibly on their own, possibly with guidance from watchers).

After all, we're told "Some of them are programmed to think they are human" at the start of every S1 episode, but only one character has been revealed to have been in that state. There's a lot more other stuff involved in these theories about what this might have meant about Kobol, Earth, the Final 5, the Temple etc. but I just wanted to stick to the broadest humanoid Cylon speculation of all -- that everybody is a Cylon, of an earlier generation. Obviously these earlier generation Cylons are able to breed, etc.

The evidence is still circumstantial for this (as it is for all the Cylon speculations) but it's growing, especially as the appearance of the fianl five in the [[Temple of Five]] strongly suggests that there are earlier generation Cylons of some type--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:59, 9 February 2007 (CST)

: This is my favorite theory so far. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 13:21, 12 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2007-02-12T19:17:31Z

Galactageek: /* Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 */

User talk:Galactageek

2007-02-12T19:10:42Z

Galactageek: /* The Woman King */

== Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! ==
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==The Woman King==
Thank you for your contribution to [[The Woman King]]. Please note the correct spelling of [[Laura Roslin]]'s name, and remember not to sign your contributions to articles - only talk pages. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:08, 12 February 2007 (CST)
: I was fixing it at the same you were. :) Gotcha. Thanks.

The Woman King

2007-02-12T18:56:31Z

Galactageek: /* Questions */

{{Episode Data
| title= The Woman King
| image=TWK-1.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 14
| guests=
| writer= [[Michael Angeli]]
| story=
| director= [[Michael Rymer]]
| production= 314
| rating=
| US airdate= 2007-02-11
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population= 41,401
| prev= [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]
| next= [[A Day in the Life]]
}}

== Overview ==
:''[[Helo]] investigates the claims of Sagittarons that a doctor is discriminating against them by providing substandard medical care.

== Summary ==

== Questions ==
* What is the current status of the medical supplies for the Fleet?

* Were the stockpile of vaccines and medicines that ''Pegasus'' had before its destruction transferred over to the ships before the Battle of New Caprica?

* Why did Hera need the medication for a curable disease, while her blood was used to cure breast cancer for President Roslin?

* With the return of Caprica-Six's internal Baltar, does this hint that the internal Six and Baltar are deeply more connected?

* Will Caprica-Six's hallucinations of Baltar cause suspicion amongst the Colonials, who might mistake her communicating with the Cylons?

* How many civilian medical doctors are there in the Fleet?

* Where was Anders during the scene in Joe's bar?

* When did the hatred and bitterness towards the Saggitarons began in Colonial history?

* How different are the Saggitarons and Gemenese in regard to their religious beliefs?

* What traditions and ceremonies do the Saggitarons still practice that the rest of the Colonies had abandoned?

* Do the Saggitarons believe in the prospect of Earth and the thirteenth colony such as the Gemenese?

* Will Helo's punch at Tigh come back and haunt him in later episodes?

* Was Hera really infected with the same disease as the Saggitarons, or was Dr. Roberts playing with Helo's mind?

* Who submitted Hera to Dr. Roberts care since Athena was away at CAP and Helo wasn't informed of Hera's well-being?

* Will Roslyn finally make the same observation about Baltar and his internal Six that she does about Six and her internal Baltar?--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 12:56, 12 February 2007 (CST)

== Analysis ==
* This is the first major episode that features Saggitarons in a more in-depth manner. We learn more about Tom Zarek and Anastasia Dualla's relation to their colony of origin, originally established in "[[Bastille Day]]".

* The Saggitarons' belief system appears to be modeled on various modern day religious sects that oppose the use of medical technology and/or are pacifist in their political views. Religious sects, such as the Jehovah Witnesses and Christian Scientists in the past have taken such views and had been highly criticized and persecuted.

* Mrs. King name might be derived from Martin Luther King Jr. as Mrs. King is portrayed as an individual who wants justice for the prejudice that she and her son received. It is her initial step of approaching Helo that causes the murders of her people to eventually cease.

* Similar to Baltar's internal-Six, Caprica-Six's internal Baltar appears at a moment of self-doubt and fear. Interestingly, this version of internal-Baltar seems opposed to Caprica-Six siding with the humans, while back in "[[Downloaded]]", he told her that he loved her so deeply once she made the decision to reach out to humanity.

* The Saggitarons appear to be the last human colony that still maintains most of its original roots from the founding of the colonies. According to the other characters such as Tigh, they still practice rituals and beliefs that are at least over 1000 years old. This may be the date when the other colonies began to let go of their religious convictions and origins.

* Though shown briefly, when the pilots (Apollo, Starbuck, and [[Racetrack]]) are walking past Helo in the corridor, it should be noted that Racetrack momentarily flirts with Helo when she holds onto his arm with Athena present. This hails back to an interview{{citation needed}} with Leah Cairns who stated that she and Tahmoh Penikett play their scenes together as though there is a sexual attraction between the two characters, while Athena remains unaware.

* Adama displays one of his character traits when he apologized to Helo for not believing him about Dr. Roberts. This is reminiscent of the moment when Adama offered Roslin his forgiveness when she took a part of the fleet in search of the Arrow of Apollo. Instead of forgiveness, Adama offered Helo his apology and stated, as he did with Roslin, that it didn't matter whether Helo asked or needed it, Helo still had it.

== Notes ==
* The title doesn't literally refer to a king, but to a female character named [[King]].

* [[Bruce Davison]]'s character [[Robert|Dr. Robert]] may be a reference to a song by The Beatles entitled "Dr. Robert". The song is about a doctor who prescribes illicit drugs. The [[A Day in the Life|next episode]] also contains a Beatles reference in its title.

*Dualla is noted as a Sagittaron. This was previously established in "[[33]]" and "[[Bastille Day]]".

*Tom Zarek was granted the Vice Presidency, despite his actions in "[[Collaborators]]".

*[[Racetrack]]'s given name, establshed in "[[Final Cut]]", is used in dialogue for the first time. [[Charlie Connor|Connor]] calls her "Marge", which seems to irritate her.

*Information from the podast:
** The Saggitaron-focused storyline, was originally intended to play a larger role in the upcoming Baltar trial. However, in post-production, it was decided that the trial needed to go into an entirely different direction, thus cutting out most of the Saggitaron build up in other episodes.
** Tom Zarek's fear that is noted by Roslin was originally based on Zarek's fear that like Gaeta, Baltar would attempt to implicate him in an incident with the Saggitarons on New Caprica. There is a deleted scene in which Zarek talks with Baltar and tries to figure out what Baltar plans to say about the event.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

== Official Statements ==

== Guest Stars ==

*[[Bruce Davison]] as [[Robert|Dr. Robert]]
*[[Gabrielle Rose]] as [[King|Mrs. King]]

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:A to Z|Woman King, The]]
[[Category:Episode Guide|Woman King, The]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)|Woman King, The]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Michael Angeli]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Rymer]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:The Woman King/Archive 1

2007-02-12T06:58:24Z

Galactageek: /* Title */

Talk:The Woman King/Archive 1

2007-02-12T06:58:07Z

Galactageek: /* Title */

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2007-02-09T01:07:56Z

Galactageek: /* Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 */

:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]

==Major Concision==
I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the [[Tory Foster]] suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.

As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.

I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain.

Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

==Interesting Info==
Read the [http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/30381 interview] below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" | We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character
|}

My take on the interview. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

:That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them.
:Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. '''I think''' that they've been boxed." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
:: That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
::: Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.
:Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I ''did'' meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
:Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's Mother ==
Can we start a discussion concerning [[Kacey]]'s "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when [[Starbuck]] and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP. -- [[User:GIR|GIR]] 21:38, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Jammer as Cylon speculation ==
I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page. There is little evidence that he is an Cylon. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon. Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all. Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator. He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon. He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials. In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon? What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically. He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him. Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP. Jammer was a dupe. That doesn't make him a cylon. The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon." And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things. The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
::Here's a concisement of my points:
Points against him

1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened? It's a valid question.

Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer). He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified. Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical. Have any of you been to high school? I did. I knew dozens of kids like that. And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion. She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation. This is not evidence.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.

4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death? And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive. He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple. He's right, not wrong. Not a Cylon. We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed. Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice? Not evidence.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

That's all the points made on the article page. The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident. And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon. If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.

Points for him

1 - His motivations are pretty clear. He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out.

2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP. You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.

3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute. How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon? Don't they just download?

4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.

5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.

6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor. I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)

So that's
1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
6 points that he's not a Cylon
I say he should be down to Low Probability.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

:You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:

:''It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon''
::As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.

:''Not Points against him''

:''1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.''

::No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on.

:''2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.''

::Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.

:''3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.''

::I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.

:''4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.''

::Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.

:''5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.''

::I agree, not a good argument.

:''6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.''

::Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.

:''7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.''

::This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.

:''8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.''

::Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.

:The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against.

:It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.
:--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this. I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section. There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon. So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be so strong.

To the points:

1. 'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?

2. 'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon. He's paranoid. He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one. Why not Tyrol? And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was: She should be mad at Boomer. Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander. He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.

4. 'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it. And he made valid points. Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before? No. As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task. Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do. I'd be pessimistic. His feeling were extremely valid. But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?

6. "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege? Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans? I agree with his statement. It is sacrilege. I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time. Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it. The kid is torn. And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort. His reactions are very understandable.

8. "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number. I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen. At least 50 is a good assessment. We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP. The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors. Jammer just happened to be among the survivors. I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck. It looked like somebody else. Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.

You know who Jammer is? He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details. He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better. He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show. In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.

Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated. Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot. Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should. D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet. In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer... The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.

You are right about what the writers may decide to do. Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline. Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon. So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.

:I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

::No, I don't agree. I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind. I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences. Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone". What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission. It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish. He was going to die! Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns? That was the point of that pass by. I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck. I don't know how you think that he's too obvious. He seems so typical of a kid his age. Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon). All these agents were planted in places of significance. Jammer... is a deckhand. All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places. And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery. The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect. In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility. The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon. This is in the least bit evidence. In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon. Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:as to the really minor point 3 (but hey, i'm totally anal :) -- i imagine we won't see a citation that defines "roll the hard six" as a pilot term. "rolling something the hard way" is a term from craps (gambling dice game), and refers to the low probability of rolling doubles, say two 3s on a pair of 6-sided dice (which is much lower than rolling a 6 any other way, and consequently gives a much higher payoff) -- ergo, the meaning as used by adama of taking a high risk to get a high payoff). i see no reason why only pilots would gamble on dice games. -- [[User:Piranha|Piranha]] 22:10, 22 November 2006 (CST)

::Well, at this point, the speculation's null and void 'cause Jammer's dead. If Jammer comes BACK from the dead in present time, then he's a Cylon. If he stays dead, not a Cylon, just a dirty Collaborator. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:52, 23 November 2006 (CST)

== Anders Speculation ==

While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.{{Unsigned|Mitchy}}

== "Cylon on Cylon violence" ==

At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of ''Downloaded'' was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.

At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. [[User:Damburger|Damburger]] 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person ''knew'' they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

::It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Her ''human personality'' does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:This entire statement of first Cylon-on-Cylon violence is false anyway. On Caprica, Athena (formerly Caprica-Sharon) killed one of her own copies ("[[Colonial Day]]"). The Cylons don't know about that because the Sharon in question was too busy looking at Helo to see her killer. Also, Athena uses Heavy Raiders KEWs to shoot the crap out of a squadron of Centurions ("[[The Farm]]"). But since Centurions don't download and the Heavy Raider is still in Colonial custody, the Cylons don't know that either. Also, the irony of the statement should be noted: only minutes after Caprica-Three says this, one of the Fives kills Caprica-Six. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:31, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::Well, you could argue that several times it wasn't really "Cylon on Cylon" violence, since it was all for the mission. Underlying intentions aside, before "Downloaded" Cylons did not kill/hurt one another for personal reasons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:44, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::It was self-defense, agreed. However, self-defense still qualifies as Cylon-on-Cylon violence. My real point is that while Three may believe her statement to be true, it isn't (but only Sharon and Helo know that). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 16:12, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Character Elimination. ==

I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.

At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.

:I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Um...could there be a middle ground here? Personally I'm fine with the dead characters being omitted from the humanoid cylon speculation page BUT I am bothered that they are included on the eliminated characters page. Most haven't actually been eliminated. They simply died and we know cylons can resurrect. To me this is a gray area and as such the dead characters should be omitted from both pages since we don't know either way. Cylons resurrect...death should not be an automatic disqualifier. If this is the criteria then (to be blunt) the criteria needs to be re-examined. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 05 February 2007.

::That's true, but they are not eliminated from suspicion by that so they don't belong in the "eliminated from suspicion" category. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:59, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:::No, they are eliminated from suspicion until they show up in "present time". They're eliminated because, just like Bill Adama, they cannot be Cylons based on our criteria at this time. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::::And why should the article reflect a bias towards it being unlikely for them show up again in present time as Cylons? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:04, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::Frankly speaking, the bias is required because any contributor's theory that dead human characters ''might'' show up again, now that the character has been shown on-screen as dead, is a form of [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking]]. This article is really a touch-and-go analysis that can be very subjective. Ellen Tigh and Jammer were strong suspects until they died. However, if we pretend that every possibility is a possibility, it reduces the wiki's effectiveness as a concise encyclopedia. "Dead" is dead and such characters can no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds, if ever. It will be preferable to leave dead characters as "eliminated." We have no further evidence to suggest they will ever return, and shouldn't speculate on death (that's another kind of wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:21, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::I would also disagree that a character's apparent death should result in elimination. I don't think keeping them a suspect is fanwanking any more than the entire agent specualtion page is. If there was good reason to suspect a character before their death, there's no reason to stop suspecting them after. You say a dead character can "no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds", but how do you know what's in their minds? Maybe there's nothing to change. Maybe they have always planned for Jammer to be a Cylon. His apparent death would do nothing to change that. I understand the concern about entertaining every possibility, but it's not as if this discussion is flooded with strong cases for possible Cylons. There are very few likely candidates.

== Tory Foster ==

* I'm surprised the possibility of [[Tory Foster]] being a Cylon hasn't been brought up yet on the article. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 15:05, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:The speculation article has lost some steam, given the point that there seem to be only 7 active agents: The rest may be [[boxed]] and "forgotten" per recent episode data. Foster hasn't any significant points for suspicion, save maybe [[Hera]]'s capture, and has been seen infrequently. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:08, 12 November 2006 (CST)

== Recent Rollback ==

I reverted edits made by [[User talk:Jettes|Jettes]] as they went against the consensus in both the talk page and article on the needed disqualifiers on human death and age. I have notified Jettes of this matter on the user's talk page. Age is a disqualifier when another character or event can substantiate it (Col. Tigh's age is a disqualifier because of his association with Bill Adama, and vice versa, while Cavil's apparent age would not be sufficient because no one can substantiate it). Death is a disqualifier because only a Cylon can return from it. If I've made any errors in this change, please let me know here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Galen and Cally Tyrol ==

Am I the only one who thinks their having a son isn't much of a disqualifier for either of these two characters? The Cylons had problems producing with each other and also had problems artifically impregnating humans. Karl Agathon and Athena were said to have mated successfully because love was involved right? If love between a human and a cylon is the linchpin to a cylon/human pregnancy then I see no reason that a second cylon/human pregnancy would not be possible (Baltar's inner Six said Sharon's baby was the first of a new generation...implying more were to come).

Also I think there is circumstansial evidence that lends credence to the idea of one of them being a cylon (I'm of the mind that one or the other is indeed a cylon sleeper).

Galen Tyrol was called to the temple of the 5 (hinted to be connected to the final 5 cylons). Galen suspected he himself was a cylon (Cavill wouldn't have seen him at the cylon meetings as he joked if the Chief was one of the 5). None of his backstory can be confirmed much like the majority of the other characters.

Cally shot the original Boomer who was a potential goldmine of cylon intelligence much like Athena later became. Cally was willing to get involved with, marry the Chief and bear his kid after he beat the crap out of her (her forgiving the chief would be semi-understandable if they had already been sleeping together but she got involved with him AFTER the chief attacked her. That's downright odd).

I'm pretty sure that son of theirs (Nicholas?) will be a second cylon/human offspring. If the 7 known cylon agents were working towards that goal then it stands to reason the 5 unknown cylons might want to do so if they were in a position to do so.

--[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 8:55, 10 January 2007 (EST)

:Hi, Meteor. For now, assuming that Cylon pregnancies are nearly impossible to create, the disqualifer still holds. But your points raise some interesting thoughts based on show history with the Chief. What if, instead of the Chief's family history in Colonial religion, that Cylon history has something to do with his attraction to the temple? At the same time, we have one counterpoint: the Chief has been with Adm. Adama's server for over two years, longer than what we have milestoned as Cylon agent introduction; any older and the possibility of being a Cylon is doubtful. I'll chew on this, but maybe we'll have a better idea soon, anyway. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:17, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Kara Thrace, Renewed ==

I moved Kara Thrace from the "eliminated" to "low" category after the rumor mills as well as the actor's comments about her character and the episode "Maelstrom" are indicating a plot twist. Not to go totally on the rumor (that's unsourced), there is the matter of the mysterious similarity between a painting in Thrace's apartment and the symbol in the Temple of Five. It's too similar. ''Something'' may connect Thrace to the Temple to the Cylons...but what? I added the photos to the article for comparison. (Credit to a contributor who noted this initially, probably on the "Eye" talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:35, 12 January 2007 (CST)
:Ausiello recently confirmed [http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/] that she is, indeed, '''not''' a Cylon. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:57, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::Yay! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:16, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::That's good. But she is ''something else'', I fear. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::All due respect, but what the frak else could she be? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:07, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::::POW. :-| [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:22, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::That's what I heard. Which I find quite interesting.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:30, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::Didn't she already play that role? ;) --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 01:06, 18 January 2007 (CST)
:::::::There's other possibilities. She could get badly injured like Adama from the end of season 1 to early season 2, or end up MIA like she was in early season 1 and Helo was from the end of the miniseries to the end of season 1, she could have a nervous breakdown and go AWOL, blending in with the civilian population, she could shoot someone she finds discovers (or believes) is a traitor or a Cylon agent, end up in a holding cell and not be heard from again until season 4 because she doesn't really factor into the plot of season 4's last 3 episodes. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:42, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Tory Foster ==

See the recent addition on Tory Foster.
:''"She is tasked, and fails, with ensuring the safe transport of Maya and Hera/Isis off the planet. Maya is killed trying to escape New Caprica with the child."''
Tory can't be blamed for Hera's capture: she put a couple of marines in charge of protecting Maya and her child and went on. Hera getting captured is actually a point against Foster being a Cylon: if she were one, she'd have suspected Hera's true nature and would've tried to capture her herself.

:''"Since this fortuitous event was possibly the only benefit that the Cylons permanently gained from their occupation of New Caprica, we should question if Foster truly tried her best, or if she tipped off the Cylons. However, it is unlikely that a targeted Cylon ambush of the Maya and her accompanying guards would shoot her while she is carrying Hera."
Here the article argues with itself, which isn't really a good thing. The only good point made here is in the last sentence: the Centurions fired upon Maya and her escorts, which makes Hera's survival a coincidence.

Lastly, there is a third point against Foster being a Cylon: the entire [[New Caprica Resistance]] knew exactly when Galactica would arrive, what buildings were going to be bombed, how they were going to evac the planet, etc. However, the Cylons were caught by complete surprise, indicating that no one had tipped them off. If any of the resistance members had been a Cylon, they surely would've done just that. (From this it can also be noted that Detention Center-Three was still alive and undiscovered at that point, since she surely would've told the other Cylons how Athena had taken the launch keys). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:55, 16 January 2007 (CST)

:I tend to agree. Unlike other minor characters, Foster's case is less than lower and has more coincidentals than suspicions or direct Cylon agent associations. I've argued this before on this character, which means that she is no more or less suspect than any other character not listed in this article. That is, Foster really hasn't much suspicion to warrant her presence in the article. Other thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:49, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::In my opinion, Foster actually has a *lower* than average chance of being a Cylon. The three points supporting that are right here on top of this section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:18, 17 January 2007 (CST)

== Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 ==

Since we have seen the 7 Cylons, any speculative Cylon agent would have to be a member of the so-called "final" 5.
(Oddly this is Baltar's term for them because they are the 5 he has not seen but the other Cylons use it too.)

The final five are not like the seven at all. Indeed, the 7 have never seen them and do not speak of them, it is unsure why they even know there are 5 of them, or even know that they are Cylons. It is just not clear what they know of them or why they think what they do.

However, [[Rapture]] indicates the final 5 are possibly powerful beings, dating back 4,000 years or more, and with much more advanced technology than seen earlier in the show. They may possibly be the creators of the 7 Cylons, as well as the lords of Kobol. This, however, is just speculation.

What isn't so speculative is that they are very special, and if so, they may well have been around since before the colonies were founded, and may well have highly advanced biotech making them able to have children where the 7 can't. They also would not be subject to the 4,000 year old virus.

As such, we can't say with much assurance that anybody is not one of these 5. Even though Adama is old, fought in the war, has children and has been exposed to the virus, he could still be one of the final 5. As could anybody, except for the 7. D'Anna tells Cavil that "there are five other Cylons, and one day you will see them." Unless what we saw in the Temple of 5/Opera House was her dream, and she's ranting (which would be disappointing) the 7 are the only ones ruled out.

However, there are other clues. For example, one of the 5, or their agent, presumably contaminated the food supply to take the fleet to the Algae planet for the carefully timed events there. Anybody involved in the incredible coincidences that, as Baltar says, "it couldn't possibly be by chance that both of us are here at this moment" is probably one of these hidden beings, or subject to their will. That includes Tyrol with his compulsion to find the temple, Starbuck with her mandala, Baltar with his inner 6, and 6 with her inner Baltar. {{unsigned|Bradtem}}

:The knowledge Cylon agents come programmed with could also include the model count. The podcasts also support the assumption that there's twelve Cylon agents. I doubt that the Final Five are over 4000 years old, however I wouldn't be surprised if the five priests of the One Whose Name cannot Be Told were the previous cycle's equivalent of Cylons. Anyway, characters who match the established pattern of known agents and our very limited knowledge of the Final Five are more likely candidates than those who don't. If someone who doesn't meet the criteria is proven to be a Cylon then the criteria can be revised. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:07, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:The final five 4,000 years old? They are '''Cylons''', which means man '''created''' them '''52 years''' ago (52 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], anyway). The idea of the 5 intentionally catalyzing the events around the algae planet is a nice one, though. The final five being 'special', as you call them, is every bit as speculative as saying they can have children. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::Remember: Only "Three" and Baltar assumed that an association exists between a temple built some 4,000 years before the Cylon even ''existed'' and the Final Five. We have seen only what Three has seen; it might have been a totally different matter if Baltar used the mechanism. As such, no, the rules of what a Cylon could or could not be must stand until we have overwhelming proof or specific criteria that says otherwise that redefines it. For all we know, Starbuck could be her own super-great-great-grandma, which could have been one of the faces Three had seen. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:18, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:::[[Laura Roslin]] also talks about a possible connection between the temple and the final five in [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]. If the [[Sacred Scrolls|Cycle of Time]] is real (which is not necessarily the case) then there's a fairly good chance that the previous cycles had some equivalent of Cylons (who may or may not have survived into modern times). I still think that the Final Five are just regular agents whose duties require them to operate in secrecy. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:05, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:::Not just Three and Baltar. The Hybrid is the one who directed them to the Eye of Jupiter. If, as they speculated, the Cylon God or some other powerful being speaks through the Hybrid, then there appears to be an association between the Final Five and the Temple of five. All we know is that Three stepped in at the magic moment and saw 5 beings, one of whom she knew and had wronged, which would certainly not be 5 long-dead Earthling priests. It may be in her imagination, but it also killed her, which is strong evidence it's real. Thus I have to say we can conclude little about the capabilities of the five -- the Cylon 7 certainly know nothing about them, even fear so much as talking about them (for reasons not established). It seems likely that with this fear and secrecy that it would be wrong to assume the same rules learned about the 7 apply to the 5. If Adama turns out to be a member of the final 5, or Roslin, I don't think it violates any principle we learned about the 7. Of course Loeben's claim that Adama is a Cylon should be baseless, as he has not seen the final 5 either. I think for now we should accept D'Anna's vision as probably based on something real, and that means somebody she knows and wronged is a member of a group involved with the Temple of Five, and which is also able to send messages through the Hybrid. This strongly suggests they are not beings that were created 43 years ago.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:17, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::Ron Moore stated a direct connection between the final five Cylons and the temple in an interview. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:39, 3 February 2007 (CST)

::::If the Final Five aren't "beings that were created 43 years ago", why do the significant seven refer to them as "Cylons"? They appear to be convinced that the final five are Cylons just like they are. Caprica-Six even says "there are twelve models", even though she's only ever seen seven. Also, there doesn't have to be someone speaking through the Hybrid, it probably just gave prophecy. I agree with you that the D'Anna didn't see a bunch of 4,000-year-old priests, and the Final Five being connected to the Temple of Five is almost certainly not a coincidence. But whoever or whatever the Final Five are, they certainly are Cylons, which means they were machines created some time during the Armistice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:38, 3 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Remember, all this has happened before. It's credible that the 5 are Cylons, but from an earlier generation. It's also possible that the humans are all actually cylons of an earlier generation too, which would fit well with the "happened before" motif. The 7 have not seen the 5, are forbidden to speak about them. We don't know what they know but it's not much. They 5 could be the creators of the 7, or annointees of the cylon God (the 5 priests are after all the priests of a lord who must not be named) It's possible the 5 Cylons made modified the temple just recently, but the parallels between the 5 Cylons and 5 priests suggest it is more than that. Since there is no time travel, "prophecy" from the Hybrid or Selloi or the rest is a communication from higher beings. That the Hybrid directed Baltar/Three to the eye of Jupiter strongly implies the higher beings/Cylon God wanted them to go there. If the Cylon God is real, it's likely more than 43 years old. Mind you, I am not as convinced as you that the final 5 are Cylons as the 7 think of Cylons. That is just what they are programmed to think, they do not appear to know it from direct experience.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:50, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::::No one said that the Cylon God is only 43 years old. Remember that the Cylon God is supposed to be God, not a supercomputer or Cylon of any kind. The five and seven are supposed to be all of a kind and while your theory about that is possible, it seems needlessly intricate to me. Also bear in mind that the 7 include Numbers Three, Five, and Eight, so the 5 and 7 must be interspersed in the numbering scheme, and that RDM has said that the Cylons made 12 models in the image of 12 human archetypes. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:25, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Cylon god appears to be a real, intervening being. The cylons are of differing theologies regarding him. D'Anna seems to call him "the one who programmed us" though at the same time we are told Cylons were originally programmed by humans. Right now, the fact that the 7 have never seen the 5 makes no sense. Nothing we have been shown even remotely explains it. On top of that they are forbidden to talk about the 5 by some strange concensus, enforced by Cavil who doesn't even buy the theology. At this point the Cylon god could be like the Christian god. But there's one thing, short of the hallucination explanation, that we do know. 5 figures, at least on of whom is a human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with, appeared to 3 when the 4,000 year old Temple of Five was activated -- a temple built by the 13th tribe (Earthlings) and described in the scrolls as being dedicated to 5 priests who worship one whose name must not be spoken. To a lot of us, this strongly that the one whose name must not be spoken is probably the Cylon god. Just what are humans on the fleet doing in that temple in the role of the 5 priests? --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 02:49, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::We don't know for sure that the 7 have never seen the final 5. It's possible their memories of them have been erased or blocked. We don't even know for sure that the figures D'Anna saw in the temple were actually the final 5. She thought they were, but Six told Baltar that he was the chosen one and that only the chosen one could see the final 5. We also don't know for sure that one of the five figures D'Anna saw is a "human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with". That's certainly the first thought I had when I saw her reaction, but we don't know for sure that's the case. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:42, 6 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::Indeed, we have not been given definitive information on the vision of the final 5. However, my point at the start of this thread remains true. We are explicitly told that even the 7 Cylons know almost nothing about the Final 5, and we're given various hints that they are special and quite possibly (I don't say certainly) beings that date from the distant past. Thus my original point -- the rules that we learned about the original 7 stated in the main page need not apply to them. It's not correct to say that Adama can't be in the final 5 because he's old and has children, because we know so little about the rules that apply to the final 5, and what little we know suggests they could be very different.
::::::::::I supposed it's possible that the final 5 predate the first Cylon war, and even the creation of the original Cylons by the Humans. If that's the case then they probably aren't really Cylons (at least not in the way we've traditionally thought of them). I wouldn't rule it out; there certainly have been suggestions to that effect, but it would leave a lot of things unexplained. For example, if the final 5 really are that different and that old, why would they even be counted in the same category as the other 7: "There are twelve models. I am Number Six." Why do we know Number Three? If there are only twelve models and the 5 are part of those and they were first, wouldn't they probably be numbers 1-5? I'm not saying it couldn't be explained, it just seems rather inconsistent at this point. Right now, I would have to say it's very unlikely that the final 5 predate the first Cylon war, but there is probably some connection between the five priests and the final 5. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:03, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::The secret of the final 5 is a secret -- even from the 7 revealed Cylons, that much we do know. They have some sort of reason (programming) to not wish to discuss them and seek them out, and D'anna's violation of that is enough to get her whole line boxed, a drastic and as far as we know unprecedented move. I suspect its programming because boy, would I be damn curious about the 5 if I were as theological as these Cylons are. The numbering, anyway, could easily be deliberately intended to deceive. They are special in some way, that we know, so their random number doesn't make a lot of sense from any perspective. Were there once 12 models all together? What made the 7 forget they had ever seen the 5, then? Were they created independently? That seems to be the only other way (besides memory erasure) that the 7 would not have seen the 5, but that means either the 5 created the 7, or a 3rd party created both for 2 purposes. The 5 have certainly seen the 7 (on New Caprica if nowhere else.) One explanation that has the 5 still be recent is the 5 priests or their lord are still around and they helped create the humanoid cylons or the 5 in particular. We still don't know how the cylons got their biotech. --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 14:16, 8 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::::::Couldn't the Final 5 be earlier messed up or aged versions of 5 of the S7? And D'Anna was apologizing to Cavil? Huh? Did I just blow your collective minds?--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:07, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:Why has no one suggested the priestess/shaman lady that interpreted d'anna's dreams in the first part of the season? She seems to fit the bill as the most suspicious person yet. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 23:28, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::A lot of people have probable suspected her from the start of the final five plotline. Maybe there's some kind of unwritten rule about focusing speculation on recurring characters. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:58, 6 February 2007 (CST)

==Two years?==

Ok a lot of this article hinges on the assumption that cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years prior to the destruction of the colonies. Where in the mini is this explained? I remember the vision of Six in Baltar's head something about them sleeping together for two years but I don't remember any evidence to support the claim that the humanoid cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years. Is there anything else to back up the claim? --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 1 February 2007.
:In "[[The Farm]]", after Boomer's death, Adama says: "She was a vital, living person… aboard my ship for almost two years."
:The notion that Caprica-Six's relationship with Baltar and Boomer's service on ''Galactica'' began at the same time was taken as too great a coincidence to ignore. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:41, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::But it should be noted that Boomer probably attended a Colonial military academy for some years prior to her assignment to ''Galactica''. So while she served on the ship for two years, the length her military service is probably closer to 5. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:45, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Boomer is a Cylon. We don't know for sure if she ever ''existed'' with the Colonial Fleet prior to the two-year mark. The two-year mark is also noted by Caprica-Six when speaking to the downloaded, in-denial Boomer in "Downloaded." Her training, like her memories of her parents, were part of her sleeper agent programming. Credentials as a Colonial officer, including any past assignments in it, can also be falsified; we ''are'' dealing with people who are literally computers, after all and can make this stuff up. The two-year mark is not an assumption and is well-established; we don't know if they were integrated any earlier, but we know at least two years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:10, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::::I was mainly thinking about her records. That she wouldn't just be assigned out of the blue. Yeah, they could be falsified, but I have the impression that the Cylons had only infiltrated the defense network (through Baltar) and not the entire Colonial/military computer system.
::::And yes, the two years timespan is established. But that doesn't mean that the infiltration didn't begin even earlier. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:20, 1 February 2007 (CST)

== Article name ==

I don't want to start a huge discussion here, but IMO this is one of the cases where "Cylon agent" would have been fine, since all the characters would actually be infiltrators. But for the sake of consistency it's probably better to have roughly identical names --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:The final five might know they are Cylons but choose not to reveal themselves to Cylons/Humans alike, therfor isnt technically an agent of either side. Plus this page was already linked to on half a dozen pages already as a broken link where ppl had meant to put Cylon Agent Spec... I just fixed it. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
::Ouch. This is arguably the most painful series of changes I've dealt with here. Makes the whole Merovingian thing pale in comparison... <nowiki><teethbrace></nowiki> -[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:39, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Virus Qualifier ==

Given the possibility that Athena's immunity to the virus may have downloaded along with her, potentially making all Cylons immune, should the virus qualifier be removed? Or, is the idea that the immunity may or may not (meaning Athena is no longer immune) have downloaded with her too speculative at this time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 03:29, 4 February 2007 (CST)

:The virus qualifier is still valid IMO.
:# Athena's download was months after the events of [[A Measure of Salvation]]. The virus should've killed any member of the baseship boarding party by then.
:# Even ''if'' Athena's immunity carried to the Resurrection Ship and to the other Cylons there, keep in mind that the final five are not aboard the Cylon fleet, so they were unable to get immune. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:20, 4 February 2007 (CST)

::What about sorting [[characters eliminated from suspicion]] into "characters eliminated from speculation" and "characters suspended from speculation due to death"? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:03, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::Good idea, we're getting quite a lot of deaths these days. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:39, 5 February 2007 (CST)

: As only memories download into a new body, one can reasonably assume that the immunity did not, as the immunity is a ''biological'' reaction resulting from her pregnancy. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:23, 6 February 2007 (CST)

::I suspect that the virus was a one-shot plot device anyway. With the source of the virus (the beacon) destroyed with the basestar, I suspect that they (the writers) intended to bury it (rather than give the Colonials a doomsday weapon that they could continually ponder deploying). I guess we'll see... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:06, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::If i were a Cylon I wouldnt want to be the one to "test" it. It would be far too risky to attempt a ressurection of a virus infected Cylon just incase the immunity was not passed on. If they are wrong it could result in the infection of their entire race. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:39, 7 February 2007 (CST)

::I'm not sure how reasonable that assumption is. The virus is also biological in origin, yet it (or some effect of it) can be downloaded. Why can't the same happen with the immunity? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:14, 7 February 2007 (CST)

:::MAY be downloaded. As far as we (the viewers) know, there aren't any cases where an infected Cylon was downloaded and spread it. The Cylons were being cautious, and the Colonials were just running under the assumption that it might work. I don't think it's been firmly established that the virus even downloads. I mean, at this point about the only thing we've got is assumptions. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:21, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::My mistake. However, I still don't think it's reasonable to assume that the immunity cannot download. The Cylons may not ''know'' that the virus can download, but they sure seemed pretty confident that it would. If the Cylons think it's possible that the virus can download, then I don't think we can assume that the immunity cannot. I also think you're correct about the writers just intending the virus to be limited to that storyline, which is why I think it was one of the biggest mistakes they've made. It's really hard to believe that the colonials wouldn't have kept some of the virus around, "just in case." --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:43, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::::The colonials may not have the facilities to be able to safely keep stocks of the virus. the only known vessel of the virus was on the [[Lion's Head beacon]] which was destroyed when the basestar exploded. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 10:28, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::::I believe that virus downloading was established in one plot element: The Cylon Centurions, which don't use biologics, and the Raiders, which use both. Both items are disabled; the Centurions are autonomous and should stay running in part if separated from their mothership (see [[Fragged]]). Same for the Raiders (see [[Scar]]). But they are knocked out: this can only happen if there was a way for the virus to turn into a program that effectively becomes a transmittable computer viral code. We don't know if the same would be applicable to the humanoids, but its a very logical jump given that the Hybrid herself and all other humanoids on that basestar are disabled. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:44, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Raiders could have been infected in the hangar bays prior to launch. Centurions are more tricky and as a writer I would never have included them in the list. Personally I rationalize it in that they were somehow connected to the Hybrid and that its death at that moment screwed them up somehow (even if as you said, they can function autonomously if needed). Yeah, it's fanwanky, but it makes a lot more sense than a biological/technological virus. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:05, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Your supposition (and mine) is supported. Note dialog snippet from "Torn" below:

:Three: All right, we make sure that the resurrection ship is out of range, then we jump to their location. Send in a group of Centurions to make sure…
:Eight: No. The data set indicates that as soon as the Hybrid was infected, the Centurions started shutting down. We don't know how ours are gonna be affected.
:Three: I assume our Raiders and baseships are also susceptible.
:Simon: Of course. We are all created from the same genetic pool.
:Doral: Then no Cylon can board that ship without risking infection.

So it's implied that the Hybrids are in communication, if not in control of Centurions on the basestar (although we know they work autonomously as well). I think the Raiders were infected for the same reason. Note the juicy bit about all Cylons being created from the same genetic source. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:19, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:That is a juicy bit. They may subsequently regret having said that, but that's definitely pretty weighty. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:35, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::Perhaps the hybrid is the key. If she becomes infected perhaps she starts sending out malicious transmissions and kill codes out to all the centurions and raiders? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:40, 7 February 2007 (CST)

:Right. I think that line is why I developed that theory in the first place, but I forgot about it --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:45, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Talk:Taking a Break From All Your Worries/Archive 1

2007-01-30T07:16:25Z

Galactageek: /* Promo Pics */

Perhaps this episode will deal with Lee Adama's promise to build a bar for the pilots? [[User:Bochawa|bochawa]] 08:47, 12 August 2006 (CDT)Bochawa
:Then that would call for a cameo by Ted Danson. [[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 15:07, 13 August 2006 (PDT)
:: I rather have "Norm" show up. "It's a dog eat dog world, and I'm wearing milkbone underwear." --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 12:32, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

I'm glad to see EJO directing another episode. I loved Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:10, 5 October 2006 (CDT)

==Promo Pics==
Can be found [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/gallery/000a3qwe here]. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:04, 7 January 2007 (CST)
:Looks like many of the scenes are in a '''bar'''. ''Ha!'' --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:42, 18 January 2007 (CST)
::Thoughts on the promo pics of Baltar in the Resurrection Tank? Dream? Real? Baltar going off in his own little world again?--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 21:41, 26 January 2007 (CST)
:::RDM said in an interview it was a dream or fantasy sequence --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::::Note the dead surrounding him. Yep, unless zombies are a new Cylon menace or Colonial weapon, I'd say fantasy. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:59, 27 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Missed the Podcast...thanks Merciful. Maybe the Final Five are all zombies?! :)--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 17:31, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::::::ZOMBIES! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:59, 27 January 2007 (CST)
:::::There's been some discussion about whether the Final Five are [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Final_five mutilated]. Reminded me of that. Maybe it means something, maybe it's an in-joke, maybe they're zombies. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:16, 30 January 2007 (CST)

==Podcast Question==

So, these things involving Joe's Bar, Layne, and Sagitarrons, were they ideas proposed for the episode that got dropped in the writing phase, or did they film these scenes and they got cut? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:51, 29 January 2007 (CST)

:I think most was dropped during rewrites before it was shot, but as you see there are some pieces of it left, that still work. For example Ishay is obviously shocked at what they do. Though if I recall correctly, the Sagittaron thing could become part of Baltar's trial later. I'd have to listen to it again. But so could you ;) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:00, 29 January 2007 (CST)

== Baltar = Saddam ==

That was my character and visual connection.

Just a few other personal observations... The writing is hitting a new level. The last couple have seemed more sophisticated to me. One reason might be that the writers are catching the characters up on all the facts that the viewers have known for some time. The humans don't come off quite as clueless as they used to. Also, I assume that drastic time jumps are usually avoided due to fear that the viewer won't be able to keep up, but I've noticed that this episode skips over long exposition to get to the torture scenes and the finale of Rapture, the "rescue" from the planet's surface and the supernova, was all montage -- totally unusual but consistent with the stronger focus on characters.

:I don't see it. The closest historical parallel I'm aware of is [[Wikipedia:Philippe Pétain|Philippe Pétain]]. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:26, 29 January 2007 (CST)
::I just meant the look mostly, and the victim mentality. I wasn't making a historical comparison.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:04, 30 January 2007 (CST)

==Mary McDonnell==

Did anyone else just absolutely ''love'' her performance in this episode? Especially the "COLONEL TIGH, GET IN HERE!" part :D -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 23:42, 29 January 2007 (CST)
:She was frakkin scary. :) --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:05, 30 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:Taking a Break From All Your Worries/Archive 1

2007-01-30T07:05:21Z

Galactageek: /* Mary McDonnell */

Perhaps this episode will deal with Lee Adama's promise to build a bar for the pilots? [[User:Bochawa|bochawa]] 08:47, 12 August 2006 (CDT)Bochawa
:Then that would call for a cameo by Ted Danson. [[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 15:07, 13 August 2006 (PDT)
:: I rather have "Norm" show up. "It's a dog eat dog world, and I'm wearing milkbone underwear." --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 12:32, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

I'm glad to see EJO directing another episode. I loved Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:10, 5 October 2006 (CDT)

==Promo Pics==
Can be found [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/gallery/000a3qwe here]. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:04, 7 January 2007 (CST)
:Looks like many of the scenes are in a '''bar'''. ''Ha!'' --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:42, 18 January 2007 (CST)
::Thoughts on the promo pics of Baltar in the Resurrection Tank? Dream? Real? Baltar going off in his own little world again?--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 21:41, 26 January 2007 (CST)
:::RDM said in an interview it was a dream or fantasy sequence --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::::Note the dead surrounding him. Yep, unless zombies are a new Cylon menace or Colonial weapon, I'd say fantasy. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:59, 27 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Missed the Podcast...thanks Merciful. Maybe the Final Five are all zombies?! :)--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 17:31, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::::::ZOMBIES! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:59, 27 January 2007 (CST)

==Podcast Question==

So, these things involving Joe's Bar, Layne, and Sagitarrons, were they ideas proposed for the episode that got dropped in the writing phase, or did they film these scenes and they got cut? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:51, 29 January 2007 (CST)

:I think most was dropped during rewrites before it was shot, but as you see there are some pieces of it left, that still work. For example Ishay is obviously shocked at what they do. Though if I recall correctly, the Sagittaron thing could become part of Baltar's trial later. I'd have to listen to it again. But so could you ;) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:00, 29 January 2007 (CST)

== Baltar = Saddam ==

That was my character and visual connection.

Just a few other personal observations... The writing is hitting a new level. The last couple have seemed more sophisticated to me. One reason might be that the writers are catching the characters up on all the facts that the viewers have known for some time. The humans don't come off quite as clueless as they used to. Also, I assume that drastic time jumps are usually avoided due to fear that the viewer won't be able to keep up, but I've noticed that this episode skips over long exposition to get to the torture scenes and the finale of Rapture, the "rescue" from the planet's surface and the supernova, was all montage -- totally unusual but consistent with the stronger focus on characters.

:I don't see it. The closest historical parallel I'm aware of is [[Wikipedia:Philippe Pétain|Philippe Pétain]]. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:26, 29 January 2007 (CST)
::I just meant the look mostly, and the victim mentality. I wasn't making a historical comparison.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:04, 30 January 2007 (CST)

==Mary McDonnell==

Did anyone else just absolutely ''love'' her performance in this episode? Especially the "COLONEL TIGH, GET IN HERE!" part :D -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 23:42, 29 January 2007 (CST)
:She was frakkin scary. :) --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:05, 30 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:Taking a Break From All Your Worries/Archive 1

2007-01-30T07:04:05Z

Galactageek: /* Baltar = Saddam */

Perhaps this episode will deal with Lee Adama's promise to build a bar for the pilots? [[User:Bochawa|bochawa]] 08:47, 12 August 2006 (CDT)Bochawa
:Then that would call for a cameo by Ted Danson. [[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 15:07, 13 August 2006 (PDT)
:: I rather have "Norm" show up. "It's a dog eat dog world, and I'm wearing milkbone underwear." --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 12:32, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

I'm glad to see EJO directing another episode. I loved Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:10, 5 October 2006 (CDT)

==Promo Pics==
Can be found [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/gallery/000a3qwe here]. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:04, 7 January 2007 (CST)
:Looks like many of the scenes are in a '''bar'''. ''Ha!'' --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:42, 18 January 2007 (CST)
::Thoughts on the promo pics of Baltar in the Resurrection Tank? Dream? Real? Baltar going off in his own little world again?--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 21:41, 26 January 2007 (CST)
:::RDM said in an interview it was a dream or fantasy sequence --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::::Note the dead surrounding him. Yep, unless zombies are a new Cylon menace or Colonial weapon, I'd say fantasy. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:59, 27 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Missed the Podcast...thanks Merciful. Maybe the Final Five are all zombies?! :)--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 17:31, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::::::ZOMBIES! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:59, 27 January 2007 (CST)

==Podcast Question==

So, these things involving Joe's Bar, Layne, and Sagitarrons, were they ideas proposed for the episode that got dropped in the writing phase, or did they film these scenes and they got cut? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:51, 29 January 2007 (CST)

:I think most was dropped during rewrites before it was shot, but as you see there are some pieces of it left, that still work. For example Ishay is obviously shocked at what they do. Though if I recall correctly, the Sagittaron thing could become part of Baltar's trial later. I'd have to listen to it again. But so could you ;) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:00, 29 January 2007 (CST)

== Baltar = Saddam ==

That was my character and visual connection.

Just a few other personal observations... The writing is hitting a new level. The last couple have seemed more sophisticated to me. One reason might be that the writers are catching the characters up on all the facts that the viewers have known for some time. The humans don't come off quite as clueless as they used to. Also, I assume that drastic time jumps are usually avoided due to fear that the viewer won't be able to keep up, but I've noticed that this episode skips over long exposition to get to the torture scenes and the finale of Rapture, the "rescue" from the planet's surface and the supernova, was all montage -- totally unusual but consistent with the stronger focus on characters.

:I don't see it. The closest historical parallel I'm aware of is [[Wikipedia:Philippe Pétain|Philippe Pétain]]. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:26, 29 January 2007 (CST)
::I just meant the look mostly, and the victim mentality. I wasn't making a historical comparison.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:04, 30 January 2007 (CST)

==Mary McDonnell==

Did anyone else just absolutely ''love'' her performance in this episode? Especially the "COLONEL TIGH, GET IN HERE!" part :D -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 23:42, 29 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:Taking a Break From All Your Worries/Archive 1

2007-01-29T19:45:40Z

Galactageek: Baltar = Saddam

Perhaps this episode will deal with Lee Adama's promise to build a bar for the pilots? [[User:Bochawa|bochawa]] 08:47, 12 August 2006 (CDT)Bochawa
:Then that would call for a cameo by Ted Danson. [[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 15:07, 13 August 2006 (PDT)
:: I rather have "Norm" show up. "It's a dog eat dog world, and I'm wearing milkbone underwear." --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 12:32, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

I'm glad to see EJO directing another episode. I loved Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:10, 5 October 2006 (CDT)

==Promo Pics==
Can be found [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/gallery/000a3qwe here]. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:04, 7 January 2007 (CST)
:Looks like many of the scenes are in a '''bar'''. ''Ha!'' --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:42, 18 January 2007 (CST)
::Thoughts on the promo pics of Baltar in the Resurrection Tank? Dream? Real? Baltar going off in his own little world again?--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 21:41, 26 January 2007 (CST)
:::RDM said in an interview it was a dream or fantasy sequence --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::::Note the dead surrounding him. Yep, unless zombies are a new Cylon menace or Colonial weapon, I'd say fantasy. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:59, 27 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Missed the Podcast...thanks Merciful. Maybe the Final Five are all zombies?! :)--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 17:31, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::::::ZOMBIES! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:59, 27 January 2007 (CST)

==Podcast Question==

So, these things involving Joe's Bar, Layne, and Sagitarrons, were they ideas proposed for the episode that got dropped in the writing phase, or did they film these scenes and they got cut? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:51, 29 January 2007 (CST)

:I think most was dropped during rewrites before it was shot, but as you see there are some pieces of it left, that still work. For example Ishay is obviously shocked at what they do. Though if I recall correctly, the Sagittaron thing could become part of Baltar's trial later. I'd have to listen to it again. But so could you ;) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:00, 29 January 2007 (CST)

== Baltar = Saddam ==

That was my character and visual connection.

Just a few other personal observations... The writing is hitting a new level. The last couple have seemed more sophisticated to me. One reason might be that the writers are catching the characters up on all the facts that the viewers have known for some time. The humans don't come off quite as clueless as they used to. Also, I assume that drastic time jumps are usually avoided due to fear that the viewer won't be able to keep up, but I've noticed that this episode skips over long exposition to get to the torture scenes and the finale of Rapture, the "rescue" from the planet's surface and the supernova, was all montage -- totally unusual but consistent with the stronger focus on characters.

Mythological references

2007-01-25T08:33:40Z

Galactageek: /* Judeo-Christian references */

:''This article lists references to real-world religious references and other mythology in the [[Original Series]] and [[Re-imagined Series]], found in dialogue and from ship, place and character names''.

== The Original Series ==

===Judeo-Christian references===
* In "[[Saga of a Star World]]", [[Adama (TOS)|Adama]] asks God to "take this burden" from him. The burden, of course, is the need to guard the last of humanity after the Twelve Colonies are destroyed. This reference is likely derived from the New Testament where Jesus prays to God before he is arrested and later crucified.

===Egyptian references===
* [[Eden]] - The special effects footage that depicts this city in "[[Lost Planet of the Gods, Part II]]" is actually the pyramids of Giza in Egypt.
* Flight gear - In the Original Series, the helmet of the [[Viper (TOS)|Viper pilot]] resembles the ceremonial headdress of the Egyptian pharaohs.
* [[Tomb of the Ninth Lord of Kobol]] - This place is heavily decorated in hieroglyphs and contains a sarcophagus with a prop of a Pharaoh's mummy.

===Islamic references===
* [[Iblis]] - This character's name is derived from "Diabolis" by the writers, but is coincidentally the name of a fallen servant of Allah.

== The Re-imagined Series ==

===Judeo-Christian references===

* The [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons of the Re-imagined Series]] are monotheistic, and worship a being they name simply as "God." The Cylons speak of commandments, inferring a parallelism between their deity and the central deity of the Abrahamic religions.
* The title of the episode "[[Valley of Darkness]]" is from Psalms 23:4.
* The Twelve Tribes - Jacob's (aka "Israel") twelve sons fathered the Twelve Tribes of Israel, who wandered the desert for 40 years. [[Wikipedia:Ten_Lost_Tribes#The_Twelve_Tribes|The_Twelve_Tribes]]--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 02:31, 25 January 2007 (CST)

=== Greek references ===

* ''[[Atlantia (RDM)|Atlantia]]'' - The name of a [[Wikipedia:Hamadryad|hamadryad]], a form of nymph and namesake of a battlestar lost in [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. Could also be a reference to the lengend of Atlantis, written by Plato.

* ''[[Chiron]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. In Greek mythology, [[Wikipedia:Chiron|Chiron]] is a centaur, or half-horse, half-human being.

* [[Delphi]] - A city on Caprica. On real-world Earth an ancient Greek city, which was home to a famous orcale dedicated to Apollo.

* ''[[Epheme]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. May be named for a minor character in Greek mythology who was nurse to the Muses.

* ''[[Galatea]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. [[w:Galatea (mythology)|Galatea]] is the name of two figures in Greek mythology.

* ''[[Odysseus]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. [[w:Odysseus|Odysseus]] is the hero of Homer's epic ''The Odyssey''.

* ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' - A legendary flying horse and namesake of Admiral [[Helena Cain]]'s [[Mercury class battlestar|Mercury class ]] battlestar.
* ''[[Persephone]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. Named after the queen of the underworld; daughter of Demeter.
* ''[[Prometheus]]'' - A freighter in Fleet that was a hub of the [[Black market (organization)|black market]]. Named after the titan who stole the fire from the gods to give it to the humans.
* [[Pythia]] - An [[oracle]]. Pythia was the name for head priestress at the Oracle of Delphi in Greece.

* ''[[Scylla]]'' - A ship in [[Helena Cain|Admiral Cain]]'s short-lived civilian fleet. In Homer's ''The Odyssey'' [[w:Scylla|Scylla]] is one of two monsters on either side of a narrow strait of water.

* ''[[Triton]]'' - The namesake of a battlestar lost in the Fall of the Twelve Colonies. Son of Poseidon and messenger of the deep.
* [[Troy]] - A mining colony. In mythology, Troy was the site of legendary [[w:Trojan War|Trojan War]].

* ''[[Zephyr]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. Named after the Greek god of the west wind [[w:Anemoi#West_wind|Zephyrus]]. "Zephyr" is also a general name for the west wind.

=== Roman references ===

* [[Number Three|D'Anna Biers]] - The assumed name of one of the [[Number Three]]s is very close to [[Wikipedia:Diana|Diana]], the Roman counterpart of [[Artemis]].
* [[Mars Day]] - A weekday or holiday named after the Roman god of war.
* ''[[Mercury]]'' - The lead ship of the [[Mercury class battlestar|Mercury class]], named after the Roman god of trade, profit and commerce.
* [[Plutonium]] - The namesake of this element, Pluto, is the Roman god of the underworld.
* The [[Eye of Jupiter]] - An ancient artifact named after the chief god of Roman mythology; counterpart of Zeus.

=== Norse references ===

* ''[[Embla Brokk]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. The name may be derived from two separate figures of mythology: Embla, the first woman, and Brokk, a dwarf who helped create Draupnir (a magical ring) and Mjollnir (Thor's hammer).
* [[Ragnar]] - Ragnar is named in reference to ''[[w:Ragnarok|Ragnarok]]'', the apocalyptic battle between the Norse gods at the end of the world.
* ''[[Valkyrie]]'' - Valkyries are minor Norse deities and [[w:shieldmaiden|shieldmaidens]] who gathered up warriors to fight at Ragnarok.

=== Other references ===

* ''[[Enkidu]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. Named after the [[wikipedia:Enkidu|Enkidu]] of the [[wikipedia:Sumerian mythology|Sumerian mythological]] [[wikipedia:Epic of Gilgamesh|Epic of Gilgamesh]].
* ''[[Wikipedia:Isis|Isis]]'' - The name [[Maya]] gave to [[Hera Agathon]] when she was adopted. Named after an Egyptian goddess who was later adopted by the Greeks and Romans.
* ''[[Maya]] - The adoptive mother of Hera Agathon. May be named after the Hindu concept of [[Wikipedia:Maya (illusion)|Maya]].

==Shared references ==

* [[Kobol]] - The name of this planet is based on "Kolob", the name of the "star nearest to God" as told in [[w:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints|Mormon scripture]].
* [[The Twelve Colonies]] - The pilot episode of the Original Series, "[[Saga of a Star World]]", as well as the Re-imagined [[Miniseries]] both show pyramidal buildings on Caprica.

==See also ==

* [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (TOS)]] - Information on how many Egyptian and [[w:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints|LDS church]] references are used in the [[Original Series]].
* [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)]] - Information on how the Olympic pantheon is used in the Re-imagined Series.
* [[Language in the Twelve Colonies#Names]] - Information on mostly non-religious and non-mythological ancient influences on character names in the Re-imagined Series.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:TOS]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Mythological references

2007-01-25T08:32:01Z

Galactageek: /* Judeo-Christian references */

:''This article lists references to real-world religious references and other mythology in the [[Original Series]] and [[Re-imagined Series]], found in dialogue and from ship, place and character names''.

== The Original Series ==

===Judeo-Christian references===
* In "[[Saga of a Star World]]", [[Adama (TOS)|Adama]] asks God to "take this burden" from him. The burden, of course, is the need to guard the last of humanity after the Twelve Colonies are destroyed. This reference is likely derived from the New Testament where Jesus prays to God before he is arrested and later crucified.

===Egyptian references===
* [[Eden]] - The special effects footage that depicts this city in "[[Lost Planet of the Gods, Part II]]" is actually the pyramids of Giza in Egypt.
* Flight gear - In the Original Series, the helmet of the [[Viper (TOS)|Viper pilot]] resembles the ceremonial headdress of the Egyptian pharaohs.
* [[Tomb of the Ninth Lord of Kobol]] - This place is heavily decorated in hieroglyphs and contains a sarcophagus with a prop of a Pharaoh's mummy.

===Islamic references===
* [[Iblis]] - This character's name is derived from "Diabolis" by the writers, but is coincidentally the name of a fallen servant of Allah.

== The Re-imagined Series ==

===Judeo-Christian references===

* The [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons of the Re-imagined Series]] are monotheistic, and worship a being they name simply as "God." The Cylons speak of commandments, inferring a parallelism between their deity and the central deity of the Abrahamic religions.
* The title of the episode "[[Valley of Darkness]]" is from Psalms 23:4.
* The Twelve Tribes - Jacob's (aka "Israel") twelve sons fathered the Twelve Tribes of Israel, who wandered the desert for 40 years. [[Wikipedia:Ten_Lost_Tribes|The_Twelve_Tribes]]--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 02:31, 25 January 2007 (CST)

=== Greek references ===

* ''[[Atlantia (RDM)|Atlantia]]'' - The name of a [[Wikipedia:Hamadryad|hamadryad]], a form of nymph and namesake of a battlestar lost in [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. Could also be a reference to the lengend of Atlantis, written by Plato.

* ''[[Chiron]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. In Greek mythology, [[Wikipedia:Chiron|Chiron]] is a centaur, or half-horse, half-human being.

* [[Delphi]] - A city on Caprica. On real-world Earth an ancient Greek city, which was home to a famous orcale dedicated to Apollo.

* ''[[Epheme]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. May be named for a minor character in Greek mythology who was nurse to the Muses.

* ''[[Galatea]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. [[w:Galatea (mythology)|Galatea]] is the name of two figures in Greek mythology.

* ''[[Odysseus]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. [[w:Odysseus|Odysseus]] is the hero of Homer's epic ''The Odyssey''.

* ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' - A legendary flying horse and namesake of Admiral [[Helena Cain]]'s [[Mercury class battlestar|Mercury class ]] battlestar.
* ''[[Persephone]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. Named after the queen of the underworld; daughter of Demeter.
* ''[[Prometheus]]'' - A freighter in Fleet that was a hub of the [[Black market (organization)|black market]]. Named after the titan who stole the fire from the gods to give it to the humans.
* [[Pythia]] - An [[oracle]]. Pythia was the name for head priestress at the Oracle of Delphi in Greece.

* ''[[Scylla]]'' - A ship in [[Helena Cain|Admiral Cain]]'s short-lived civilian fleet. In Homer's ''The Odyssey'' [[w:Scylla|Scylla]] is one of two monsters on either side of a narrow strait of water.

* ''[[Triton]]'' - The namesake of a battlestar lost in the Fall of the Twelve Colonies. Son of Poseidon and messenger of the deep.
* [[Troy]] - A mining colony. In mythology, Troy was the site of legendary [[w:Trojan War|Trojan War]].

* ''[[Zephyr]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. Named after the Greek god of the west wind [[w:Anemoi#West_wind|Zephyrus]]. "Zephyr" is also a general name for the west wind.

=== Roman references ===

* [[Number Three|D'Anna Biers]] - The assumed name of one of the [[Number Three]]s is very close to [[Wikipedia:Diana|Diana]], the Roman counterpart of [[Artemis]].
* [[Mars Day]] - A weekday or holiday named after the Roman god of war.
* ''[[Mercury]]'' - The lead ship of the [[Mercury class battlestar|Mercury class]], named after the Roman god of trade, profit and commerce.
* [[Plutonium]] - The namesake of this element, Pluto, is the Roman god of the underworld.
* The [[Eye of Jupiter]] - An ancient artifact named after the chief god of Roman mythology; counterpart of Zeus.

=== Norse references ===

* ''[[Embla Brokk]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. The name may be derived from two separate figures of mythology: Embla, the first woman, and Brokk, a dwarf who helped create Draupnir (a magical ring) and Mjollnir (Thor's hammer).
* [[Ragnar]] - Ragnar is named in reference to ''[[w:Ragnarok|Ragnarok]]'', the apocalyptic battle between the Norse gods at the end of the world.
* ''[[Valkyrie]]'' - Valkyries are minor Norse deities and [[w:shieldmaiden|shieldmaidens]] who gathered up warriors to fight at Ragnarok.

=== Other references ===

* ''[[Enkidu]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. Named after the [[wikipedia:Enkidu|Enkidu]] of the [[wikipedia:Sumerian mythology|Sumerian mythological]] [[wikipedia:Epic of Gilgamesh|Epic of Gilgamesh]].
* ''[[Wikipedia:Isis|Isis]]'' - The name [[Maya]] gave to [[Hera Agathon]] when she was adopted. Named after an Egyptian goddess who was later adopted by the Greeks and Romans.
* ''[[Maya]] - The adoptive mother of Hera Agathon. May be named after the Hindu concept of [[Wikipedia:Maya (illusion)|Maya]].

==Shared references ==

* [[Kobol]] - The name of this planet is based on "Kolob", the name of the "star nearest to God" as told in [[w:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints|Mormon scripture]].
* [[The Twelve Colonies]] - The pilot episode of the Original Series, "[[Saga of a Star World]]", as well as the Re-imagined [[Miniseries]] both show pyramidal buildings on Caprica.

==See also ==

* [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (TOS)]] - Information on how many Egyptian and [[w:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints|LDS church]] references are used in the [[Original Series]].
* [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)]] - Information on how the Olympic pantheon is used in the Re-imagined Series.
* [[Language in the Twelve Colonies#Names]] - Information on mostly non-religious and non-mythological ancient influences on character names in the Re-imagined Series.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:TOS]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Mythological references

2007-01-25T08:31:22Z

Galactageek:

:''This article lists references to real-world religious references and other mythology in the [[Original Series]] and [[Re-imagined Series]], found in dialogue and from ship, place and character names''.

== The Original Series ==

===Judeo-Christian references===
* In "[[Saga of a Star World]]", [[Adama (TOS)|Adama]] asks God to "take this burden" from him. The burden, of course, is the need to guard the last of humanity after the Twelve Colonies are destroyed. This reference is likely derived from the New Testament where Jesus prays to God before he is arrested and later crucified.

===Egyptian references===
* [[Eden]] - The special effects footage that depicts this city in "[[Lost Planet of the Gods, Part II]]" is actually the pyramids of Giza in Egypt.
* Flight gear - In the Original Series, the helmet of the [[Viper (TOS)|Viper pilot]] resembles the ceremonial headdress of the Egyptian pharaohs.
* [[Tomb of the Ninth Lord of Kobol]] - This place is heavily decorated in hieroglyphs and contains a sarcophagus with a prop of a Pharaoh's mummy.

===Islamic references===
* [[Iblis]] - This character's name is derived from "Diabolis" by the writers, but is coincidentally the name of a fallen servant of Allah.

== The Re-imagined Series ==

===Judeo-Christian references===

* The [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons of the Re-imagined Series]] are monotheistic, and worship a being they name simply as "God." The Cylons speak of commandments, inferring a parallelism between their deity and the central deity of the Abrahamic religions.
* The title of the episode "[[Valley of Darkness]]" is from Psalms 23:4.
* [[The Twelve Tribes]] - Jacob's (aka "Israel") twelve sons fathered the Twelve Tribes of Israel, who wandered the desert for 40 years. [[Wikipedia:Ten_Lost_Tribes|The_Twelve_Tribes]]--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 02:31, 25 January 2007 (CST)

=== Greek references ===

* ''[[Atlantia (RDM)|Atlantia]]'' - The name of a [[Wikipedia:Hamadryad|hamadryad]], a form of nymph and namesake of a battlestar lost in [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. Could also be a reference to the lengend of Atlantis, written by Plato.

* ''[[Chiron]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. In Greek mythology, [[Wikipedia:Chiron|Chiron]] is a centaur, or half-horse, half-human being.

* [[Delphi]] - A city on Caprica. On real-world Earth an ancient Greek city, which was home to a famous orcale dedicated to Apollo.

* ''[[Epheme]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. May be named for a minor character in Greek mythology who was nurse to the Muses.

* ''[[Galatea]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. [[w:Galatea (mythology)|Galatea]] is the name of two figures in Greek mythology.

* ''[[Odysseus]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. [[w:Odysseus|Odysseus]] is the hero of Homer's epic ''The Odyssey''.

* ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' - A legendary flying horse and namesake of Admiral [[Helena Cain]]'s [[Mercury class battlestar|Mercury class ]] battlestar.
* ''[[Persephone]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. Named after the queen of the underworld; daughter of Demeter.
* ''[[Prometheus]]'' - A freighter in Fleet that was a hub of the [[Black market (organization)|black market]]. Named after the titan who stole the fire from the gods to give it to the humans.
* [[Pythia]] - An [[oracle]]. Pythia was the name for head priestress at the Oracle of Delphi in Greece.

* ''[[Scylla]]'' - A ship in [[Helena Cain|Admiral Cain]]'s short-lived civilian fleet. In Homer's ''The Odyssey'' [[w:Scylla|Scylla]] is one of two monsters on either side of a narrow strait of water.

* ''[[Triton]]'' - The namesake of a battlestar lost in the Fall of the Twelve Colonies. Son of Poseidon and messenger of the deep.
* [[Troy]] - A mining colony. In mythology, Troy was the site of legendary [[w:Trojan War|Trojan War]].

* ''[[Zephyr]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. Named after the Greek god of the west wind [[w:Anemoi#West_wind|Zephyrus]]. "Zephyr" is also a general name for the west wind.

=== Roman references ===

* [[Number Three|D'Anna Biers]] - The assumed name of one of the [[Number Three]]s is very close to [[Wikipedia:Diana|Diana]], the Roman counterpart of [[Artemis]].
* [[Mars Day]] - A weekday or holiday named after the Roman god of war.
* ''[[Mercury]]'' - The lead ship of the [[Mercury class battlestar|Mercury class]], named after the Roman god of trade, profit and commerce.
* [[Plutonium]] - The namesake of this element, Pluto, is the Roman god of the underworld.
* The [[Eye of Jupiter]] - An ancient artifact named after the chief god of Roman mythology; counterpart of Zeus.

=== Norse references ===

* ''[[Embla Brokk]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. The name may be derived from two separate figures of mythology: Embla, the first woman, and Brokk, a dwarf who helped create Draupnir (a magical ring) and Mjollnir (Thor's hammer).
* [[Ragnar]] - Ragnar is named in reference to ''[[w:Ragnarok|Ragnarok]]'', the apocalyptic battle between the Norse gods at the end of the world.
* ''[[Valkyrie]]'' - Valkyries are minor Norse deities and [[w:shieldmaiden|shieldmaidens]] who gathered up warriors to fight at Ragnarok.

=== Other references ===

* ''[[Enkidu]]'' - A ship in the Fleet. Named after the [[wikipedia:Enkidu|Enkidu]] of the [[wikipedia:Sumerian mythology|Sumerian mythological]] [[wikipedia:Epic of Gilgamesh|Epic of Gilgamesh]].
* ''[[Wikipedia:Isis|Isis]]'' - The name [[Maya]] gave to [[Hera Agathon]] when she was adopted. Named after an Egyptian goddess who was later adopted by the Greeks and Romans.
* ''[[Maya]] - The adoptive mother of Hera Agathon. May be named after the Hindu concept of [[Wikipedia:Maya (illusion)|Maya]].

==Shared references ==

* [[Kobol]] - The name of this planet is based on "Kolob", the name of the "star nearest to God" as told in [[w:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints|Mormon scripture]].
* [[The Twelve Colonies]] - The pilot episode of the Original Series, "[[Saga of a Star World]]", as well as the Re-imagined [[Miniseries]] both show pyramidal buildings on Caprica.

==See also ==

* [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (TOS)]] - Information on how many Egyptian and [[w:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints|LDS church]] references are used in the [[Original Series]].
* [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)]] - Information on how the Olympic pantheon is used in the Re-imagined Series.
* [[Language in the Twelve Colonies#Names]] - Information on mostly non-religious and non-mythological ancient influences on character names in the Re-imagined Series.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:TOS]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:The Eye of Jupiter/Archive3

2007-01-25T08:19:30Z

Galactageek: /* Question on article */

I wonder if it has to do with that big red spot... *rollseyes* --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:48, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm more reminded of that Writer's Podcast thing, you know when they're saying "How many more times are we going to find an artifact like the Arrow of Apollo and have to search for them all? That feels like going back to the well too many times, I mean what are we going to say, "Athena has 10 sacred toenail clipping scattered across space, you have to find them all...?" :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:49, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:i'm thinking along the lines of some jewelry. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:57, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

::It sounds like a good plotline actually. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:05, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Merv - you just made me spill forth mein coca cola whilst reading the section about the sacred toenail clippings - thats too much for 3am on a sunday morning! Still, plot looks good, just wish Season 3 would hurry up and AIR dammit! :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 21:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
::::No, really, they make a joke about "Athena's toenail clippings" in that writer's podcast thing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:12, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I have a few possible meanings for 'eye of Jupiter' --[[User:starryniteynite|starryniteynite]]

1) Relatively obscure name for NGC 3242, a planetary nebula (A ring of illuminated gas expanding out from a sun-like star that's exhausted its fuel, and has lost its outer layers) a few thousand light years from Earth. Most astronomers call this 'the Ghost of Jupiter' instead, though some Hubble images have used this name. Its not a very unique PN (tho it has some gas streamers we can't quite explain), but it could be used as a navigational marker like M8 (the lagoon nebula). It is a very pretty nebula :)

2) "Eye of Jupiter" was the Greek/Roman name for the sun, which lead to today's 'all seeing eye' symbol of the free masons and on the pyramid in US currency

3)Adama=Zeus=Jupiter...yes, they tend to use Greek vs. Roman names, but the titles are not always consistent with this convention, and we have also seen evidence for non Greek mythological names (Isis, for example). The rest of it could be wordplay too...'eye' might refer to someone acting as Adama's eyes, rather than his eyes literally (just as 'The captain's hand refereed to Lee acting as Gardner's XO, or his hand, rather than some captain's literal hand)

4)A reference to Jupiter's big red spot, a huge hurricane-like storm on the planet's surface. Just like the "bastille Day" title, this could reference something in the episode, but not directly...they might travel through a similar storm. This has actually been done before in the miniseries, when Galactica travels into the storm at Ragnar

5) The tried and true, ancient object meaning...just like the arrow of Apollo directly references a character, but has no link to the character himself, this could just be a pretty piece of bling..

Personally, I would love #1, but only because it'd make me 2/2 for BSG objects in my thesis and I'm a total, unabashed geek. I think its probably #2, however, and they find some sort of navigational means of finding Earth (like a picture of Earth w/ distances& directions to three pulsars or very unique objects

== Duelling Sharons ==

So did anyone else get a sense of animosity/jealousy between the two Sharons? While it seems that Boomer has accepted her place amongst the Cylons and no longer considers herself a part of the humans, it also seems that she's a bit jealous of Athena's "taking her place", if you could call it that. Likewise, it also seemed that aside from her duties as a Colonial officer, Athena's refusal to let Boomer in with Adama was also somewhat out of personal distrust, ironically the same distrust of the Cylons that her fellow Colonial colleagues have.

Also, while Boomer told Athena about Hera's condition out of possible concern of the child (possible strain of humanity left in her? Cylon imperative? Or something else?), seems to me that Boomer enjoyed bursting her "sister"'s bubble on that. Talk about sibling rivalry there.

It'll be interesting to see if there will be any further Sharon vs. Sharon confrontations in the series.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 23:55, 15 December 2006 (CST)

:It was a very, very interesting dynamic. In any other show, we would have had a knock-down dragout "catfight." You hit the nail on the head. This episode was prime stuff. And, we on the wiki should be commended: our ''Galactica'' nuke count is right on the money! (Either that, or the show is using ''us'' as a source! :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:20, 16 December 2006 (CST)

::Does that mean we can finally change the "Class-D Nuclear Warhead" to something completely different, since their nukes ''aren't'' Class-D? :P --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:42, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Image==
Let's find an image that actually occurs in this episode. Maybe the wide shot of Tyrol in the temple? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Heh which one? to me it seems the Chief was a bit wide in ALL shots ; how could he gain weight while the fleet was starving? the chief definitely deserves the Lee Adama Fat-Ass trophy --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 03:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:Maybe it was Chief, and not Dr. Cottle, that got all of Kat's energy bars from the last ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:25, 16 December 2006 (CST)

So... is someone with the means actually going to replace the image with one relevant to this episode? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 21:12, 20 December 2006 (CST)

:Silly joking aside, I agree that the picture should be replaced. I'd do it, but I don't have a good screencap --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:34, 23 December 2006 (CST)

:I happen to have the episode, so, it's done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:57, 23 December 2006 (CST)

::Well, I still see a thumbnail of the old image here and there (e.g. on the main page or on Mercifull's user page). -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:09, 27 December 2006 (CST)

:::You may need to purge your browser's image cache to see the new image. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:12, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::I've just purged my Maxthon's image cache a moment ago and I still see an old thumbnail. Tried that also with Opera and Firefox -- all the same. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 04:27, 28 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Starbuck survive?==
Horray for the carelessness of adverts! Within ten minutes we knew the answer to that one. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Aside from that, it's going to continue the cycle of Soap Opera unease there, if Dee's the one sent to go get Starbuck back. Can't wait to see the uncomfortable stares on that one, especially if (as I suspect) Dee set up Starbuck to be the "eye in the sky" '''hoping''' the Cylons would shoot her down.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Who else was supposed to fly the mission? Looks like Lee and Kara are the only two qualified pilots on the ground and Lee is needed in overall command. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:34, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Nuking the Planet==

Does anyone else think that the nuclear missiles have the ability to be detonated remotely, before they reach their target? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:44, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Not to mention abort code transmissions, etc. Makes you wonder if the missiles were set for "one shot, one kill" mode, where they could not be recalled.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Or perhaps the missiles can be aborted, until they reach a critical flight time. Could make for a ''very'' tense moment or two. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:Is it just me or didn't he actually give the order to fire. He said "release of nuclear weapons is now authorized". That might sound strange, but I took that to be a preliminary order to firing. For example that now even Tigh would be able to launch them on his say --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:03, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::No, you're correct on that; essentially all they were doing was opening the "barn doors". I was discussing the hypotheticals of the missiles, if they should be launched in the next ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:33, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:::Aye, we're just jumping the gun a little, and discussing possibles ways out of it, if Adama does indeed decide to launch :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 02:17, 21 December 2006 (CST)

::::Am I the only one who thinks he might be targeting the nukes for the Raiders on their way to the surface? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:53, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:::::Then why this-
:::::'''Adama''':Load target package three-bravo. Set ground zero for the underground structure.
::::: -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:19, 29 December 2006 (CST)

:::::: Damn, I missed that. Consider me stumped, then. -[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:17, 30 December 2006 (CST)

I watched the episode for the first time last night. I had this theory after the show ended...If the star of this system is going to go supernova, as Gaeta has described,

("Gaeta: Could be tomorrow. Could be next year. There's no way of knowing for sure, sir. When it does happen, the only warning that we're likely to get is a fast helium flash, at which point we'll have to jump out of here before it obliterates the entire planetary system. Sir, I am not one to look for religious signs. But I can't get my head around these odds. That human and Cylon both converge on this planet at this exact moment just as the star's about to go supernova…")

there most likely is an abundance of solar phenomena being emitted from the sun, maybe an increase of solar flares even. Solar flares have the "energy equivalent to a billion megatons, traveling normally at about 1 million km per hour"..."They produce electromagnetic radiation across the electromagnetic spectrum at all wavelengths from long-wave radio to the shortest wavelength gamma rays:(solar flare wiki ref.) I know that Solar Flares can disrupt electronics on and orbiting earth, and I'm sure Galactica's systems are somewhat protected from bursts of electromagnetic energy...but somehow I had the idea that the nukes are probably not as well insulated. Since there is so much solar activity in the region, I had the idea that maybe something like a flare (not the helium flash Gaeta talked about) would happen just as the nukes were launched..causing them to blow in the upper atmosphere directly over the temple. This would allow for quite a light show, and perhaps could allow that light shaft in the Temple of Five to be intensified. On the BaseStar with Baltar and Three, the Hybrid mentions something about "the five lights of the apocalypse" here:

"Hybrid: ...I don't care if it rains or freezes, as long as… the five lights of the apocalypse rising... sins revealed only to those who enter the temple, only to the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, end of line. Until next time … the eye, the eye, the eye, look into the eye to know thyself."

Maybe this is the way the temple is activated, maybe this is how the eye of Jupiter (Jupiter/Zeus/Adama's nukes) appears over the temple and activates the key...and Hey, maybe the solar flare would take care of the Heavy Rader flight systems too...Who knows, just an idea I had wished to share.

"Chief: And the heavens opened up, and they saw the Eye. But where is that frakking Eye?"

--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:08, 3 January 2007 (CST)

:Holy crap that's a good theory. Wow. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 12:06, 3 January 2007 (CST)
:Nice theory indeed. Maybe the five lights of the apocalypse are actually five nukes? Nukes would qualify as lights of apocalypse, but then so would a supernova. Also, I revisited the Hybrid's prophecy: ("Find the hand that lies in the shadow of the light, in the eye of the husband of the eye of the cow"). The light is most likely the bright star cluster (although it could also be the nukes, the supernova or the helium flash), but "in the shadow" hasn't really been explained properly. Now I just realized that since the temple is an underground structure, it would be in the shadow all the time. Might be something, might not be something, we'll see. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 13:47, 3 January 2007 (CST)

== WTF moment ==

I was on the [[Karl Agathon]] page, updating it for this ep's news, when I came across [[:Image:Valley_of_Darkness-Starbuck_Helo.jpg|this old picture]]. Considering how Kara's painting looks and that she's religious (though not indoctrinated in any sort of clerical form, unlike Chief Tyrol's parentage), does anyone think that (in hindsight), this may have been a hint to the Eye itself?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:37, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: It actually makes a lot of sense... Taking Zeus to mean Admiral Adama, and that Kara Thrace is the go-to pilot for reconnaissance missions, AND the paintings on the walls, we have a plausible theory in the works! —The preceding '''unsigned''' comment was added by {{User|Alcibiades}}.
: Are you kidding me?! They set this episode up a year ago! --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: I find it pretty hard to believe too, but that painting ''really really really'' looks like the art in the temple. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 20:41, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Maybe they though it would be a nice idea to take that painting, put it in the Temple more than a season later, and see if we notice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::It's a painting in her room and part of the column in the temple. :) --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:31, 19 December 2006 (CST)
: So Starbuck is an artist. She paints The Eye of Jupiter. Is it a known symbol or is this the first time anyone else has seen it? If it's not well-known, what does that say about Starbuck? Doesn't it make her prescient? Maybe her true calling is as an oracle. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:29, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::I'm with Catrope here. If I'm remembering my "Valley Of Darkness" podcast correctly, Tahmoh and Katee painted the apartment themselves, without any direction from Ron or the rest of the show crew. It's quite possible that someone noticed that particular pattern and decided to make it significant. And, hey, maybe she ''is'' an Oracle who just hasn't realized that she has the gift. Give the girl some chamalla and see what she can do. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Starbuck found a spiritual calling to fill the enormous gaps in her soul that she tries to fill with sex, booze, speed, duty, and violence. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:33, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:A friend of mine told me he though the painting and the decoration looked a lot like a star or an explosion, and then brought up the word "supernova". Could this picture be some sort of reference to the star going supernova? (I must admit I'm contradicting myself here, because I said earlier I thought the similarity to be some sort of an inside joke. Of course it's possible that Sackhoff&Penikett accidentally painted something that looked like an explosion, and that's why the writers chose that particular painting.) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:36, 22 December 2006 (CST)
::I've updated the [[Cylon agent speculation]] article on Thrace's entry with the two pictures in question. This is not a coincidence; there is some connection, but we have to wait to know what. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:45, 12 January 2007 (CST)
Well it turns out Mitsukai was right, and a lot of others were not!--[[User:Alcibiades|Alcibiades]] 05:43, 23 January 2007 (CST)
:Mitsukai was right, brilliantly found indeed, but don't forget about me and my friend :P (see comment above). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 07:30, 23 January 2007 (CST)
::Catrope, you were dead on. Ron Moore confirms on the podcast that Sackhoff painted it on the set and the writers, looking at that shoot sometime during the writing of this episode, decided to incorporate it. It's kind of scary how the parts fit together so neatly even though they ARE coming up with stuff by the seat of their pants. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:37, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:::Aye it is. Don't forget that the entire Starbuck-storyline pretty much goes back to [[Flesh and Bone]], when [[Leoben]] says she's special and she has a pre-written destiny. In [[The Farm]], [[Caprica-Sharon]] repeats it, meaning that it's not some of Leoben's usual crap. And now we finally get a clue as to what he meant. It all fits perfectly, yet Season 1 and 2 can hardly have been written with this episode in mind. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 03:34, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== 18 Casualties & Relevance to "The Passage" ==

If 18 people were lost from '''The Passage''' episode, that means that 17 (at most) were aboard those two lost civilian ships, right? I'm only bringing this up to clarify what transpired — from that, and what we saw, the Raptors would pair up with a civilian ship, and that ship's passenger complement would be transferred onto ''Galactica'' (more heavily shielded, combat FTL drive) for the ferry run through the cluster. The civilian ship would then be crewed by an absolute bare minimum number of crewers. Then, when the group reached the other side of the cluster, the passengers would be transported back to their ships (if they survived the passage), the ships would remain at "Algae-planet", and ''Galactica'' would turn around and go back to the original side to repeat the cycle over again for a new group of civilian ships?

Am I reading/viewing this right? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:53, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:The ships were manned by skeleton crews. That was even mentioned in "The Passage" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:01, 16 December 2006 (CST)

: Don't forget that 14 days have transpired. there could have been more births in the fleet. I just came up with the difference from the two episodes--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

== Humanoid Cylons recognize each other on sight ==

While back on New Craprica, Number 3 knew right away that it was Sharon Agathon. Of course, who else would be trying to remove the ship's launch keys?

This episode, we see that Athena knew on sight that this Number Eight was Boomer. Interesting.

Can Cylons tell on sight which of the copies they are? It's already established that the bulletheads can't.

Note in last weeks episode, Baltar was able to pick The D'anna number three out of the hallway on sight, even though there is an identically dressed number three in the same hallway. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 16:50, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Those two instances do prove that they do recognize one another, which was hinted at in the "[[Cylon Agent]]" page. I guess now it's more than a hint. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:54, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:I thought it could be something like recognizing a computer by its IP address, y'know, like the Cylons are all tied into one network and they've got like a special ID code on that network. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:45, 24 January 2007 (CST)

==Names of marines==
Has anyone heard (or seen in close captions) the names of the marines that were with Starbuck and Dualla? I know one of them is [[Fischer]], but the other three? I heard something like: Criggs, Verek, Ditko. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:According to the caption, it's Griggs and Varrick; the spelling/pronouncation of the third lad is anyone else's guess. For some reason, the closed caption for this episode doesn't pick up everything for me. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:48, 17 December 2006 (CST)

::OK, we know that it's [[Fischer]], [[Griggs]], [[Varrick]], [[Henick]] and [[Ditko]]. Since after she says "Henick and Ditko" the camera centers first on the black guy and then on the bald guy, can we assume that the first one is Henick and the latter one is Ditko, and the one in a hat is Griggs? It's conjectural, but looks reasonable to me and it would be nice to add pictures to their articles. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 14:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Location of the Eye? ==

At the end of the episode, Tyrol says something about "the sky will open, and the eye will be revealed." Did that make anyone else think of the star going nova? -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 22:15, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Good idea, but is it possible that such a "blowup" could be predicted in the sacred scrolls thousands of years ago? -- [[User:SuperMMX|SuperMMX]] 01:15, 17 December 2006 (CST)
::Why not? A race of humans capable of traveling from Kobol to Earth probably knows at least as much about stellar evolution as the Colonials [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:39, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: The [[Sacred Scrolls]] have so far contained information about [[Laura Roslin]] being sick, [[Sharon Agathon]] helping them to find the [[Tomb of Athena]], and more... In addition to various prophetic dreams... Sure, they could have predicted it. -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 11:26, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:When Tyrol commented about blowing up the Temple, I already thought "What if the Eye is INSIDE the pillar and they have to blow it up to get it out?" But surely an explosion destroying the entire system would destroy the Eye as well? And if it didn't, the Eye would not be easy to find between the debris of an entire planet. But blowing up a pillar doesn't exactly qualify as "the sky will open"... Maybe it refers to blowing up the roof or something like that... --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:04, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: Note the shaft of light streaming across the central pillar in the final scenes of the episode. Perhaps something will be revealed when it becomes centered upon the prominent symbol seen there. --[[User:Spidey3|Spidey3]] 12:29, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::That was the way my mind was working. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:39, 18 December 2006 (CST)
I believe that the Sky Opening Up will be the explosion of the nuclear weaponry activating or destroying something which will then reveal the Eye. --[[User:Teal Thanatos|Teal Thanatos]]

== Boomer in the brig? ==

Did Boomer get thrown in the galactica brig once Athena pointed her out? Was she allowed to return to the Basestars? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:49, 17 December 2006 (CST)

I doubt it because they probably would have it done right there rather than holding her outside first. I'm sure they let her leave with the others and advised her not to let the door hit on the arse on the way out. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:46, 17 December 2006 (CST)

:Besides, the least thing they need on ''Galactica'' right now would be Boomer to break out of the brig, throw on a uniform and have a "Guess the Sharon" contest. Aside from that, I expect that kind of trite plotwork I just mentioned from lesser sci-fi series, not this one.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Summary ==

We really need a longer summary up there, the only point it currently mentions is kind of random -_- --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:58, 17 December 2006 (CST)

== D'anna's search for the five vs. the Temple of Five ==

I haven't seen much discussion on the connection between "the five" Cylons and the Temple of the Five. Since the Temple was built by the 13th tribe, a connection doesn't seem likely in a conventional linear timeline; but like the painting in Starbuck's apartment, it's hard to dismiss as a mere coincidence.

Such a connection does, however, clear up some verisimilitude issues for me – namely, the rate at which the Cylon's biological technology advanced in relation to both Cylon and Colonial conventional technology.

In less than 40 years' time, the Cylons were able to develop the Cylon Agents – and in such a way that made indiscernable from humans – and all of the ressurection technology that went with it. Meanwhile, their conventional, mechanical technology hasn't made nearly the same leaps. And Colonial technology hasn't advanced much at all. Pegasus was a much more formidable vessel than Galactica, but only in terms of size and firepower. Technologically speaking, they weren't that dissimilar. Everyone's still using nuclear missles as their most advanced form of weaponry.

Clearly, the Cylons have had a little help. Now, with dual references to a group of five that must not be named, we're starting to get an idea of from where that help may have come.

I'm not sure how that jibes with the Cylon's monotheistic religion (also established within those 40 years), versus the Colonies' polytheism, but I'm sure Mr.Moore has it worked out.

How great it is to have a show with a fleshed out story line already established, as opposed to the "make it up as we go" approach to shows like Star Trek (all incarnations), X-Files and Lost over our last 40 years. {{unsigned|Tylonius}}

:To ''Battlestar's'' credit, it did take a while to flesh out the story from a viewer's perspective, but what we know is quite intriguing. Their God and the Colonial gods may be one and the same, and may change how the Cylons treat the Colonials and vice versa. I don't think the five faces will be all shown, but we might see one. And yes, it is good to enjoy a show that makes a greater effort to maintain a consistent storyline. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:01, 18 December 2006 (CST)

::Time may not be an issue. Remember the Colonial Scriptures are full of prophecies, it wouldn't be too farfetched to assume that the Temple of Five could've been constructed for something before it happened, for the purpose of making it happen in due time.

::The Five could do whatever releated them to the temple much like Roslin is directly related to finding the tomb Athena, even though she lived thousands of years after everything else was set.

::This is all speculation, of course, but oh well....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 13:59, 19 December 2006 (CST)

:::The Final Five are directly connected to the Temple of Five: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/12/one_of_the_cent.html -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:16, 20 December 2006 (CST)

::::“Essentially the Temple of the Five is directly connected to the five Cylons we have not seen.” - RDM
::::I've been thinking about the ambiguous ''sins'' the [[Hybrid]] mentions, that appear to be in regards to the Five. My working theory is that the five priests who served "The One Who Cannot Be..." and the Five Cylon Models who served the Cylon God both committed the ''sin'' of Rebellion, and that both dieties they rebelled against are one and the same. I also (big leap now), think that Model One is among the Rebel Five. Being rebel ''Angels of God'' (as Virtual-Six refers to herself), that would make One the RDM-equivalent to TOS-Lucifer, now wouldn't it? Chief and first of the (from the cylon perspective) "fallen" angels (as opposed to speculation that One ''is'' the Cylon God) --[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 02:16, 23 December 2006 (CST)

== Human Nicknames ==
I cropped the following from the episode summary. Nothing against either point, just taking it off until somebody can figure out how to reconcile it into a single level deep bullet point (or points).
Cropped text:
*This is the first time the Cylons use "human" names on the basestar when not speaking to Baltar. D'Anna is named by Caprica-Six and another Number Three. Cavil's name is used by D'Anna.
**It is possible that these names are nicknames for the Cylons who've been amongst the humans (much like Caprica-Six), but it could also be the writers weaseling out of coming up with numbers for Cavil, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]] and [[Simon]]. In ''[[The Passage]]'', D'Anna even mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons".
Thanks. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Err how about:
*This episode marks the first time the Cylons use "human" names when not speaking to Baltar: Caprica-Six and another Three call D'Anna by her human name, who in turn uses Cavil's name. These could be nicknames for Cylons who've been living among humans (cf. [[Caprica-Six]]).
*Once again, the writers have dodged the issue of [[Cavil]]'s, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s and [[Simon]]'s numbers. In "[[Torn]]", Caprica-Six says "The ones you know as Leoben...", in "[[The Passage]]" Number Three mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons" and in this episode a Three simply calls one of the Cavils "Cavil".

Please correct my style here, I didn't know exactly how to quote/paraphrase things like "one of the Simons" etc. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:One bullet point might be enough if the second part is connected with a word like "thus". However we shouldn't use "weasling". It sounds too negative and critical where criticism isn't really needed. Maybe something like "dodging the issue" or "circumventing"? That means the same and isn't as POV.
:Btw: episode names aren't italicized, but put in quotation marks --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Edit first post, episode titles quoted instead of italicized, second bullet point reprashed and "weaseling" changed to "dodged".
I don't think joining the bullet points with "this" between them is going to make this any clearer. I also don't think it's necessary, as both points may be related but analyse different things (the remaining numbers vs. Cylon naming convention). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:28, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:I think the writers are working with established names for convenience. They may not want to create a number yet to not confuse some viewers or there may be a grand scheme of introducing more numbers later in the season or another season that involves the 5 unknown cylon models. They could be maintaining flexibility for themselves in this case. They also know that the people who care the most are us die-hard fans and they can drag us through the mud without giving us more info, but I don't think so with as generous and courteous as Ngarenn is on BW:OC.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 11:10, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::It wouldn't be too hard to introduce a new number though. We've heard plenty of statements like "We Threes think we can't take the risk.", ideal statements to introduce new numbers with. Of course these numbers aren't a big deal, but die-hard fans tend to like to know these details. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::True. Though the more detail the introduce, the more chances they have to get it wrong. Even with the few model numbers we have revealed RDM sometimes has [[Podcast:The_Passage#Act_1|difficulty keeping them straight]], confusing the Eight's (Sharons) with the Three's (D'annas). Either way, we'll be here, documenting. I sometimes wonder if we're (the die-hard detail documenters) aren't his worst nightmares (if we even bothers thinking about us). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:52, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::::I always thought it was a nice nod to buckaroo banzai where all the villains had the same first name. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 22:05, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::I believe it would make sense that there is a plan with rolling out the remaining agent numbers. For example, whether or not "One" is one of the missing Five has a great deal of bearing on the development of the cylon narrative, and so would be kept quiet until the episode revealing that fact. If He/She is one of the missing Five, but "Two" is not, then Two's identity ([[Cavil]], [[Leoben]], or [[Simon]]) also has a great deal of bearing on the narrative. Cavil has been shown using some leverage on Three. He's got my money for being Two. I think One is with the missing Five.--[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 22:58, 25 December 2006 (CST)

== Question on article ==

*When did [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] go over to the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons']] way of thinking? In this episode she clearly doesn't seem to think of herself as human anymore like she did in "[[Downloaded]]."
:I had assumed that by LDYB, II that the Cylons had gone over to Boomer and Caprica-Six's way of thinking, hence their (C-six and Boomer) sudden rise to power as well as the sudden Cylon cease-fire. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:24, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::I think it's been established that somewhere along the way she realized that humans and cylons can't mix, and I believe she says something to that effect in Rapture. Where exactly this revelation came I'm not sure, or my memory is lacking, but she has had a lot of shit happen to her. On the latest podcast, Moore says they cut a lot of story on the basestar with Caprica, Hera and Boomer's surliness towards Tyrol. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 02:19, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Hera ==

I cannot believe that Adm. Adama has apparently no idea what happened to Hera. He was involved in this discussion in [[Downloaded]]. He should knew that Hera and her foster mother moved to [[New Caprica]]. I am very surprised that he became so angry after Roslin told him that she kept the child in her school. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 17:21, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:Adama and Roslin only agreed in "[[Downloaded]]" that Sharon cannot be allowesd raise the baby. Maybe he assumed/was told that Hera was killed by Cottle? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:34, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::That they concluded at the discussion that the child should be killed would fit with this episode events and Baltars look at the end of "Downloaded" when being chided by his internal six. However that option was mentioned onscreen and the entire tone of the conversation at that point makes it seem somewhat unlikely that this would been the final decision. Given that Baltar was never in on the adoption-plot (he apparently didn't know Hera was alive on New Caprica) and we now know Adama didn't know about it either the discussion outcome must have been either to kill the child or to postpone the decision (with Heras apparent death solving the problem). I'm quite willing to buy that Adama believed the child had died a natural death, given that complication in a hybrid between man and machine were to exspected. But I have troubles with Roslin doing it all behind Adamas back (why did she have to do that?) and Adama not making a decision whatever immediately (in Downloaded). [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 17:40, 21 December 2006 (CST)

== Recent Summary Reorganization Problems ==

I'm normally OK about reorganization of a summary, but the recent one handled by SgtPayne creates more work and confusion. Links previously added are missing, conventions once there are missing, and the narrative flow of the summary is extremely confusing. Normally we can break up events by location (events on Galactica, basestars, planets) because they are mostly separate events that don't directly connect, but this episode has both Cylons and Colonial events occurring in response to each other and in "real-time." I am ''this close'' to rolling back the summary and adding edits made afterwards to restore both narrative flow and conventions, but I wanted comments from others first. As an admin I would just roll it back because of all the wikilinking and convention breakage, but it's more than that. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:36, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:This is one that I might suggest we do "Act" reporting summary. So the events are intertwined. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:56, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::I believe that's exactly what the summary contained before that infamous edit: a chronological report of the events in this episode. Since everything and everyone interacts with eachother and is at the same place, that would be a logical choice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:03, 20 December 2006 (CST) (I hate edit conflicts)
:I haven't checked it for style and links, but I agree that the summary should be chronological. Splitting up the locations is fine if they aren't related. But as you said, here they are heavily interwined and dependent on each other --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:57, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:'''Revert.''' It looked better the way it was. The new split makes for a very confusing read. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)

I have reverted the article and restored relevant edits made after that reorganization. One persistant edit that I keep changing involves the "shaft of light" in the Temple as Tyrol is inspecting the symbology in the Temple. That "shaft" is Tyrol's flashlight beam. While that direct light ''might'' do something unexpected as it approaches the central target-shaped symbol, it's not coming from some mystic source within the structure. I've clarified this in the article. Contributors are always free to edit it, but its fairly clear, so analysis should be used to interpret what it might do. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:48, 20 December 2006 (CST)

In light of the recent reversion, I should drop my two cents in regarding the "reorganization". When I first read the article, I felt that it was too "narrative" rather than "summary", which is what the section suggests. The consolidation was an attempt to make the information as concise as possible. I also attempted to keep as many reference links as necessary. In regards to the location split, this was done in line with previous articles, which had definitive locations. My apologies if it confused readers, but it should be said that summaries are just that, and should not be play-by-play accounts of the episode. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 12:18, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:The location split you introduced is good practice when there are multiple storylines that do not interfere with eachother. A nice example of that is "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]". In most episodes this is the case (end s1-begin s2 even had 3 or 4 separate storylines), but in this particular episode the three locations affect eachother so greatly that the split you introduced makes for extemely confusing reading: a bullet point in the basestar story references events told in the Galactica part, and viceverse. (Let's not even start about the Algae Planet part). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:45, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::You bring up a good point. In trying to put it together, there were some areas where I wasn't sure where to put it. On the whole, I was looking to clean it up a bit. Trying to read it line-for-line blurs out after a while... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 14:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::I've broken up the summary into acts. It seems to solve both problems. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:24, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::aye. nice job. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:34, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::::I concur. It definitely cleans up the look of the page. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:55, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Missile Tubes==
Where exactly are they and shouldnt that be an article in "Galactica Areas" Snorkel378

:They are located on the dorsal side of the ship, slightly forward of the four guns ahead of the Colonial seal, and sit in two rows of six. And sure, why not create an article in that section? -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:12, 29 December 2006 (CST)

== More Nested Analysis ==
*The [[tylium]] planned for the mines could only come from their single Raptor. This supports the [[Substances in the Re-imagined Series#The Tylium Question|high energy yield of the fuel]] that, at the same time, would not sacrifice the Raptor's flight ability.
**It's also possible that the tylium used was fuel stored at the camp to power its generators and/or refuel the Raptors and other ships involved in the harvest.
Please resolve these into either one or two single-level bullets, then re-add to the article. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:56, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:Done. I also updated the nuke count in this section. Admiral Adama orders launch tubes four through ten loaded, which means he's prepared seven nuclear warheads, not six. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:05, 22 December 2006 (CST)
::Nicely done. Thanks! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:51, 22 December 2006 (CST)

Major Point:
Note that Hera is the wife of Roman God Jupiter, the derivative of the Greek Zeus. {{unsigned|PhoenixFlight}}
:Yes, Hera's counterpart in the Roman pantheon is Juno. The association is noted over many episodes to date. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:22, 6 January 2007 (CST)

== Playing with the date? ==

In Kobol's Last Gleaming, they stated the ruins on Kobol were 2000 years old, "around the time of the exodus of the 13 tribes". When they found the beacon at the Lion's Head Nebula, they said it was 3000 years old, and now they're saying the Temple of Five is at least 4000 years old. Each time they give a new date a thousand years earlier, it seems to still coincide with the exodus date of the thirteenth tribe.

Am I the only one noticing this inconsistancy?

: My memory may be off, but I was under the impression that the 13th tribe left Kobol long before the other twelve. So... maybe the 13th tribe left 4k years ago, and the rest left 2k years later. Fanwankery? Spotty memory on my part? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 02:08, 25 December 2006 (CST)

::Both, sort of. The date in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I" refers to all thirteen tribes collectively. In "A Measure of Salvation" and "The Eye of Jupiter", they refer to the thirteenth tribe alone.
::'''Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I'''
:::Roslin: How old are the ruins?
:::Billy: We won't know for sure until they send a ground team, but the initial estimates have it on the order of approximately 2,000 years.
:::Elosha: That's around the time the thirteen tribes first left Kobol
::'''A Measure of Salvation'''
:::Adama: According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3,000 years ago. Right around the time that the Thirteenth Colony left Kobol.
::'''The Eye of Jupiter'''
:::Tyrol: Our initial radiocarbon dating suggests that the temple's at least 4,000 years old, which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe.
::--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:16, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:::Here's a thought. What if this isn't an accident? We've speculated already that humanity might have emigrated from Earth to Kobol before the thirteenth tribe returned. If the further away from Kobol we get, the older the artifacts we find, what does that tell us? That the thirteenth tribe was traveling not from Kobol to Earth, but from Earth to Kobol. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 06:03, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::Well, it may not be an accident, but the Colonials seem to think that the 13th tribe left Kobol for Earth. So why, upon finding that the artifacts get older as they journey further from Kobol/closer to Earth, would they conclude that the dating analysis confirms their scriptures? Put another way, if they dates say the tribe went from Earth to Kobol, but the scriptures say they went from Kobol to Earth, why aren't the Colonials confused? It's an interesting idea, nonetheless. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:29, 31 December 2006 (CST)

:::::Okay, it could also be that we're giving the Colonials too much credit in their dating. Elosha is a priest. Maybe her date of 2,000 is based on scripture, not fact. Also, the date of 4,000 could just mean that it predates the time that they knew the other 12 colonies left Kobol, thus it had to be built by the 13th tribe. The 13th tribe may have had outposts all throughout the galaxy while still calling Kobol home. Furthermore, since there are apparently 21,000 years of recorded history, maybe to the Colonials a few thousand years of inaccuracy in dating don't really make a difference. You could compare it to modern day humans who confuse the 15th and 16th centuries. Of course, now I'm fully in the territory of fanwanking/making up excuses. The seven months/nine months disparity with regard to the Colonial election was never even acknowledged, so there is a good possibility these inconsistent dates are just a product of sloppiness. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:40, 31 December 2006 (CST)

Nut we Don't know how long it took to get everyone from earth off of kobol because it would take awhile to get huge civilizations away from a planet.Snorkel378

== Dichotomy of Signs to Earth==

I find it rather interesting that the first real sign to Earth that they found was a satellite/probe (first found by the Cylons). This would represent the high tech sign-post to Earth. The second sign to Earth is this hidden "Temple of Five" which is plainly a spiritual sign. Anyone else thing this is very interesting? I wonder what was on the satellite. Too bad RDM didn't allow them to examine it. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 21:57, 26 December 2006 (CST)

==The G-4==
Hey how come in the summary it doesnt mention the G-4 about to go off right by Tyrol? Snorkel378

:*Unaware how events are escalating around and above him, Chief Tyrol illuminates the carved writings of the Temple with his flashlight and reads the inscriptions, trying to locate the actual resting place of the Eye. At one point, his flashlight's beam moves close to the target-shaped symbol in the center of the central spire.
:How about we make that:
:*Having strapped explosives to the central spire of the temple, Chief Tyrol...
:--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:17, 31 December 2006 (CST)

No I mean the activation light on 1 of the explosives is blinking which means it is going to detonate.The article does not mention that.
Snorkel378
:There is nothing to suggest that the blinking lights don't simply mean that it is armed rather than about to explode. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])

Yes but the music can easily tell u what is happening and it has a danger coming sound to it-Snorkel378
:Thats fanwanking. We have seen nothing to suggest that the explosives are about to detonate. All we know is that the explosives are armed and the flashing light could simply be to note that fact. You may very well be right but so far there has been no aired information to say that you are and until the next episode airs we wont know. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 03:24, 3 January 2007 (CST)

You are right I geuss im some crazy kid huh :) Snorkel378

:The explosives set by Tyrol and Anders in Occupation have a light that blinks, but the explosives only go off when the detonator is activated. The light is in no way indicative of and impending explosion -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 15:51, 12 January 2007 (CST)

== Last name in the credits ==

Okay, after a month, I think I finally found the last remaining actor/character in the closing credits. Thanks to the inane sense of necessity in scrunching the credits (so they can apparently advertise the same things they do 23 times a day in normal commerical airtime) I was unable to read the last name, getting the first two through squinting and deduction. I skimmed one last time and believe I found the last, unreadable name. According to
[http://www.thelogbook.com/logbook/series/battlestar-galactica-new/newgalactica-season-3/page/2/ this site] it's [[Tygh Runyan]] as Pvt. [[Byers]]. I looked at the guy at IMDb and although he's not given the credit (no surprise), he ''can'' be spotted in the episode. Even [http://tv.yahoo.com/battlestar-galactica/show/the-eye-of-jupiter-part-1/episode/111786/castcrew Tv.Yahoo], a considerably more reliable source, has him listed (sans character name). Any disagreement in adding him? I'm sure someone here has clear visual access to the credit, but I'm going through a consensus since it hasn't been added by said "someone". --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 00:04, 16 January 2007 (CST)
:Do you have a screenshot for us to look at? Might be best to wait for it to air in HD then it will be much clearer. Alternatively ask on the [[Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques]] page. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 03:27, 16 January 2007 (CST)
:: TYoJ Will be airing in HD over here in a few weeks, not sure about America though. [[User:MatthewFenton|MatthewFenton]] 03:32, 16 January 2007 (CST)
:::I have the iTunes copy of this: I've confirmed the same names and spelling. Do we know where he is (on the planet?). That would be enough to make a stub. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:23, 16 January 2007 (CST)
I've only spotted him in one scene. It's at the start of Act 4 when Anders is dividing them up into two teams. He is among those Sam is talking to, wearing a cap and at one point, he's given an entire frame (with Anders' shoulder in the foreground). He appears mainly in a shot where he is at the very left, with Lee, Barolay, and Anders to his right. I hope that paints a good enough picture since I'm unable to get a screencap. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 13:59, 16 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:Rapture/Archive 1

2007-01-25T07:56:37Z

Galactageek: /* Multiple Cavil's? */

== 7th squadron ==

Did anyone else see the 7th squadron logo behind Helo?
[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 16:12, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Photo ==

I think it's time to replace Universal logo with a promotional photo. The question is: with which one? My vote goes [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000t5fg5/g282 here]. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 05:36, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:Ditto. Make sure it's uploaded to the Media wiki properly first. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:11, 23 December 2006 (CST)
::It already is. Its used on the [[Final five]] page. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:06, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:::Ever notice how prevalent the Universal logo is on all of their products? It's particularly annoying when watching the Season One DVDs. They finally started cutting it from in front of individual episodes on the 2.5 discs. The logo is down-right... universal. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:51, 8 January 2007 (CST)

(referring to the picture) So this is where some of the members of the Grey Council went after Delenn dissolved it... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:11, 31 December 2006 (CST)
:Yeah. Better gig. Far more lighting. Sexier minions to grovel at your feet, too. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:22, 1 January 2007 (CST)
::Mmm. Minions. The twenty-first cannot come soon enough. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:49, 8 January 2007 (CST)
:::13 days, 10 hours, 31 minutes :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:28, 8 January 2007 (CST)

== My Predictions ==

Here's what I think we'll see tonight:
*Helo kills Athena so she can download and get Hera from the Cylons.
*Dualla goes Starbuck-hunting with Anders. They fall for each other, thus neatly wrapping up the Starbuck/Apollo/Anders/Dee love rectangle.
*Bill Adama nukes the bejeezus out of the algae planet. Chief, Cally, Barolay, and Bendis die. Everyone else makes it out on a heavy raider.
*The Final Five: Starbuck, Anders, Billy, Johnny Five, and Galvatron.
*Guest appearances by the SuicideGirls.

All of the above predictions are pulled directly from the darkest reaches of my rectum and should not be taken seriously. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:17, 21 January 2007 (CST)
: 1st idea: might actually possibly work even though it won't happen. 2nd: Good idea, actually. 3rd: Naw. 4th: Bahahahahaha. 5th: I wish. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:34, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:As they say on the forums, Galvatron ftw. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:57, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:Slander, I have an idea to make it even better. Option 3, take the "it" out of the 3rd sentence. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 16:26, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::Anders and Apollo making out? Hey, it could happen. They're both very pretty and Bamber is English. That's close enough to being a girl. And, hey, we'd get to see the inside of a heavy raider. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 17:46, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:::HOLY FRAK, SLANDER! HOW DID YOU KNOW?! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:09, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::::Chamalla tastes good with Swiss Miss. (Also, the Final Five member that D'anna apologizes to? Totally Galvatron.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:34, 22 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Also also, how'd y'all like those SuicideGirls cameos? Eh? Eh? --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:36, 22 January 2007 (CST)
::::::The Final Five person D'anna talked to was Galvatron, the other 4 were SuicideGirls. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 08:42, 22 January 2007 (CST)
: I bow down to Slander. I bet the writers were cackling for weeks after they came up with that idea.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:46, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies ==

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to suggest that
the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the Cylons. They
are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans.
So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord or at the very least
evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for enlightenment,
in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness perhaps even conciousness of the lords
in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the lords.
The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see developing
in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious leader in the original series
has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his fellow cylons
to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And yet, strangely,
he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother cylons, something you would expect of an
Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven,
he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a member of
a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself (greek gods), how satanic might he appear?
An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satans flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rull in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in hell.
So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica Aphrodite, Sharon Athena
and Deanna Hestia?. Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?
Adama and Laura and Zeus and Hera? two reason for two of the final five to stay where they are.
They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the flow,
well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and wonderful
in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge advances
by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of Stargate or the Vorlons
of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with higher beings
in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies
over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon
models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end sounds far more believeable
than actual gods and godesses.
{{unsigned|Mevenstar}}

: The was a good read.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:48, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Dualla's partner? ==

The summary mentions Dualla's partner being an unnamed civvie, but I thought it looked like Sergeant Fischer (Aleks Paunovic). I'll check the Sadgeezer transcript (as soon as it is posted). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:26, 23 January 2007 (CST)
:Not sure if it was Fisher, but I think he's one of the marines for sure --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:05, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::I'm pretty sure Dee says "Sarge?" after he gets shot. I could be wrong though. -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 06:23, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Sooner Rather Than / Or Later? ==

*The Cylons are relieved as well, but after the Three in the command room leaves in satisfaction, the others realize that the Cylon, a race predicated on consensus and not defiance or distinctive personality clashes, have a serious problem. A [[Cavil]] voices that the Threes are out of control, and that a decision regarding their actions must be made, sooner or later.

I recalled that line as "sooner, rather than later," implying that the other models were already considering boxing the Threes. Am I loosing my mind, or did I hear that right? --[[User:Saiboogu|Saiboogu]] 01:35, 24 January 2007 (CST)

::That's what I heard too. Or "maybe sooner, rather than later". --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)

:::I edited the line but left the implication that they were going to box her for the talk page. If I remember, I think it has already been implied on earlier episode summaries that the Threes may be boxed - it goes without saying on this page. {{unsigned|Saiboogu}}

== Multiple Cavil's? ==

Ron Moore mentions in the podcast that the fx crew were going to insert a shot of a Cavil in front of all of the Deanna pods. Just as he boxes her in the closeup all the others box all the other Deanna models in the long shot. But I don't believe there were any Cavil's in the long shot. Did anyone notice? --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)
: It looked like there were other Cavils doing the same thing to all the other Threes in the wide shot that ended the episode. It is rather interesting that Cavil's normally not among the models who participates in a post-resurrection midwifing, yet he's the only one there when a boxing takes place, no? --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 02:04, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:To me it looked like a lot of Cavil-activity too. If (as many people here believe) Cavil is Number Two, then his actions in this episode make perfect sense. He's the one who confronts D'Anna in the temple and almost kills her, he's the one who proposes boxing the Threes in the first place, and he's the one who ends up actually doing it. If Cavil is either Two or Four, he'd be the representative of the remaining Cylons and it would make sense for him to go on a boxing spree. Also, if Cavil is Two, he wouldn't want his 'leadership' status (as far as he has any; he didn't protest against the majority decision to attack the Colonies) threatened by the revelation of Number One (who I believe to be among the Final Five). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 03:39, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::: I gotta get me a bigger tv.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:56, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Deanna Recognition ==

Which of the main characters has Deanna had significant interactions with? Other than Baltar.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:47, 24 January 2007 (CST)
: Fleet-D'Anna from Final Cut interacted with Roslin, Adama, Tigh, and Lee. As for Downloaded/Final Five-D'Anna, it's just been Baltar, Doc Cottle and Anders, who she was a righteous bitch to and nearly killed by the way. --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 02:07, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:: I thought Fleet-D'Anna was Final Five-D'anna --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::: I think it's pretty obvious that the D'anna who found Hera and searched for the Five is the D'anna we know from Final Cut. Caprica-Three has a rather nastier temperament, both in Downloaded and in Occuprice. It's possible the Three who defies the basestar command in Rapture is Caprica-Three as well. I believe only one Number Three is referred to as D'anna and that's Final Cut D'anna. Note that even the other Cylons refer to her by that name. Normally, Cylons only seem to bestow individual names on a Cylon who has accomplished something significant. (For example, while D'anna mentioned speaking to a Simon, this was so Baltar would know who she's talking about.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:58, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:::: Yeah, that was the clincher for me, when the other Cylons called her D'Anna. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:19, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::::: The D'Anna that's been focused on recently is the one who was in Downloaded, see her flashbacks in [[Hero]] and the response from Bradley Thompson ([[Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques]]). She's probably called D'Anna because Baltar calls her that. The reporter D'Anna from Final Cut was in the fleet at the time of Downloaded, so they're not one and the same. Messiah-D'Anna may be the one shown at the end of Final Cut. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:34, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::::::I transcribed the conversation, I'm not sure about "it's a trick before I die", the line was barely audible.
:::::::D'anna: "The final five, is it really you?"
:::::::D'anna: "You."
:::::::D'anna: "Forgive me I ... I had no idea."
:::::::''transitions from D'anna holding mystery figure's hand in the vision to D'anna holding Balthar's hand in the temple''
:::::::Balthar: "No idea about what? What did you see? Who was it?"
:::::::D'anna: "So beautiful."
:::::::Blathar: "What was? Tell me am I one of you."
:::::::D'anna: "You were right."
:::::::Balthar: "About what? D'anna did you see my face? I have to know please. Please stay with me I have have to know. Tell me I have to know did you see my face? Am I a cylon?"
:::::::Balthar: "God ... it's a trick before I die."
:::::::Tyrol: "Welcome home mister president."
::::::It was pretty heavily implied that it was Balthar, although the "forgive me, I have no idea" line would also be consistant with [[Daniel Novacek|Daniel "Bulldog" Novacek]]. She could also be apologising for any as of yet unmentioned offscreen actions against any known or as of yet unintroduced character on Cylon occupied [[New Caprica]] or any of the Cylon-occupied Colonies. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:16, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::Fleet-Three from "Final Cut" can't possibly be Messiah-Three - during Three's first recreational suicide in "[[Hero]]", she flashes back to a scene from "Final Cut" set on Caprica. This means she's the same Three as the one watching the documentary in that episode, and not the one who was on ''Galactica'' at that time. She also flashes back to her death at the hands of Caprica-Six in "[[Downloaded]]", so we know that they are also the same character. Since it doesn't make sense for Messiah-Three to apologize for any actions taken by Fleet-Three, I think we can safely rule her out. That leaves the humans interacted with by Messiah-Three to be considered. There are only six candidates:
::*Sam Anders - Tried to kill him on Caprica ([[Downloaded]])
::*Tucker "Duck" - Blew her up at the NCP graduation ceremony ([[Occupation]])
::*Dodona Selloi - Consulted her regarding Hera's fate ([[Exodus, Part I]])
::*Cottle - Discussed Hera's cremation ([[Exodus, Part I]])
::*Felix Gaeta - Was present when she, Caprica-Six and Baltar evacuated Colonial One, but did not interact with him ([[Exodus, Part II]])
::*Denny "Bulldog" Novacek ([[Hero]]) - Interrogated by an anonymous "sick" Three on a Basestar.
::*Gaius Baltar
::In evaluating these, we should establish whether Messiah-Three has done anything to them worth apologizing for, and consider whether story logistics allow them to be a Cylon. Three has no reason to apologize to Duck, Selloi, Cottle or Gaeta, narrowing the field to just Baltar, Bulldog, and Anders.
::From a storytelling standpoint, Baltar can't possibly be a Cylon. They've teased it so much that there's no dramatic payoff if they reveal it now - it would be a total anticlimax. It also ruins his character's dramatic function, since Baltar's role is to be the guilt-ridden traitor. His character can't function as a Cylon. If James Callis ever intends to leave the show, revealing him as one of the final five would be a good way to write him out, but in the near-term, it's just not a possibility.
::Bulldog would be a completely uninteresting choice (since we know nothing about him and have no emotional investment in his character). Additionally, the actor will probably be difficult to book in the future, and the character has mitigating factors (a long military career with verified non-Cylons Bill Adama and Saul Tigh).
::This leaves Anders as the only possibility. Messiah-Three certainly has grounds to apologize to him, and he has no real mitigating factors - no history prior to his time with the Caprica Buccaneers, and (notably) no children with his wife, Kara Thrace. It also explains his remarkable ability to withstand and quickly recover from walking pneumonia ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]). --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:00, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:::Love the analysis. Who you narrow it down to makes sense. Anders is just a goofy guy, though. I personally find the Bulldog theory more interesting because of his connection to Adama and Tigh. If we see the character pop up in upcoming credits that might be a sign that they're filling out his backstory. Until then, though, maybe Anders will take on more shades, or the writers will have a dramatic twist that'll make Baltar a more convincing choice.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:53, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Boxing the Threes ==

There is discussion around here about just how they boxed the entire Three line, so here's my idea:
*Send all your Cavils to the Resurrection Ship's Three Deck.
*Reprogram the Centurions to forget the Threes are Cylons.
*Have the Centurions fire upon all Threes they can find in the fleet. (Resurrection Ship's gonna work overtime on that)
*Have your Cavils box the downloaded Threes.
Any alternative ideas, anyone? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 03:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Here's my one main idea, based on looking at what happened once D'Anna saw the final five.

*One of the consequences of her seeing the final five was that the experience would overload her Cylon brain. Take note that her eyes glazed over and her nose started to bleed, inferring that there was some sort of hemmorage occuring, probably from the brain area. Since it has been shown many times throughout the series that the Cylon models amongst themselves can communicate with each other on a near telepathic level, whether it is for voting on leadership decisions or sharing memories. I believe it is entirely possible that once D'anna saw the final five, the shared memory of that forbidden knowledge was transmitted to all the other Threes, thus resulting in their own deaths as well.

When Cavil talked with D'Anna and told her to look at all the "damage" she had caused, he seems to be talking about all the other resurrection chambers around her. This implied to me that the damage that occurred was that every Three died at the same time & thus time and energy had to be spent to resurrect them all. I take this to be the final breaking point for the rest of the Cylon leadership as resurrecting an entire line of cylons would have taxed the resources they currently had, plus now that all the Threes have this shared knowledge of the final five, it is too dangerous to keep them around, thus the final boxing.

That's my 2 cents. I understand how the other explanations can work and may very well be one of those. However, considering how often RDM and crew bring in some religious and spiritual twists every so often into their stories, what happened to D'Anna could be akin to how some religious teachings bring up the idea that once a normal human being looks upon the face of a god, their penalty is immediate death. Even in the RDM podcast, he referred to the cause of the boxing to the occurence that they finally took a bite of the forbidden knowledge, a reference to the Fall of Man account in the Judeo-Christian teachings.

Either case, I don't think the Cylons did much to "box" all the Threes. The Threes died because of D'anna's encounter with the final five and thus made it much easier to box all of them as they're resurrected. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:29, 24 January 2007 (CST)

It's possible that The Threes simply accepted their faith? After all they were able to get a ship on the planet they had no further reason to disagree with the other cylons.

Also we see some people walking in the "boxing chamber" when Brother Cavil leaves. Who are they?--[[User:R4p70r|R4p70r]] 14:14, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:Rapture/Archive 1

2007-01-25T07:53:17Z

Galactageek: /* Deanna Recognition */

== 7th squadron ==

Did anyone else see the 7th squadron logo behind Helo?
[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 16:12, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Photo ==

I think it's time to replace Universal logo with a promotional photo. The question is: with which one? My vote goes [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000t5fg5/g282 here]. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 05:36, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:Ditto. Make sure it's uploaded to the Media wiki properly first. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:11, 23 December 2006 (CST)
::It already is. Its used on the [[Final five]] page. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:06, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:::Ever notice how prevalent the Universal logo is on all of their products? It's particularly annoying when watching the Season One DVDs. They finally started cutting it from in front of individual episodes on the 2.5 discs. The logo is down-right... universal. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:51, 8 January 2007 (CST)

(referring to the picture) So this is where some of the members of the Grey Council went after Delenn dissolved it... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:11, 31 December 2006 (CST)
:Yeah. Better gig. Far more lighting. Sexier minions to grovel at your feet, too. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:22, 1 January 2007 (CST)
::Mmm. Minions. The twenty-first cannot come soon enough. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:49, 8 January 2007 (CST)
:::13 days, 10 hours, 31 minutes :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:28, 8 January 2007 (CST)

== My Predictions ==

Here's what I think we'll see tonight:
*Helo kills Athena so she can download and get Hera from the Cylons.
*Dualla goes Starbuck-hunting with Anders. They fall for each other, thus neatly wrapping up the Starbuck/Apollo/Anders/Dee love rectangle.
*Bill Adama nukes the bejeezus out of the algae planet. Chief, Cally, Barolay, and Bendis die. Everyone else makes it out on a heavy raider.
*The Final Five: Starbuck, Anders, Billy, Johnny Five, and Galvatron.
*Guest appearances by the SuicideGirls.

All of the above predictions are pulled directly from the darkest reaches of my rectum and should not be taken seriously. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:17, 21 January 2007 (CST)
: 1st idea: might actually possibly work even though it won't happen. 2nd: Good idea, actually. 3rd: Naw. 4th: Bahahahahaha. 5th: I wish. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:34, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:As they say on the forums, Galvatron ftw. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:57, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:Slander, I have an idea to make it even better. Option 3, take the "it" out of the 3rd sentence. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 16:26, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::Anders and Apollo making out? Hey, it could happen. They're both very pretty and Bamber is English. That's close enough to being a girl. And, hey, we'd get to see the inside of a heavy raider. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 17:46, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:::HOLY FRAK, SLANDER! HOW DID YOU KNOW?! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:09, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::::Chamalla tastes good with Swiss Miss. (Also, the Final Five member that D'anna apologizes to? Totally Galvatron.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:34, 22 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Also also, how'd y'all like those SuicideGirls cameos? Eh? Eh? --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:36, 22 January 2007 (CST)
::::::The Final Five person D'anna talked to was Galvatron, the other 4 were SuicideGirls. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 08:42, 22 January 2007 (CST)
: I bow down to Slander. I bet the writers were cackling for weeks after they came up with that idea.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:46, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies ==

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to suggest that
the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the Cylons. They
are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans.
So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord or at the very least
evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for enlightenment,
in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness perhaps even conciousness of the lords
in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the lords.
The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see developing
in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious leader in the original series
has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his fellow cylons
to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And yet, strangely,
he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother cylons, something you would expect of an
Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven,
he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a member of
a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself (greek gods), how satanic might he appear?
An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satans flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rull in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in hell.
So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica Aphrodite, Sharon Athena
and Deanna Hestia?. Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?
Adama and Laura and Zeus and Hera? two reason for two of the final five to stay where they are.
They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the flow,
well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and wonderful
in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge advances
by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of Stargate or the Vorlons
of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with higher beings
in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies
over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon
models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end sounds far more believeable
than actual gods and godesses.
{{unsigned|Mevenstar}}

: The was a good read.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:48, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Dualla's partner? ==

The summary mentions Dualla's partner being an unnamed civvie, but I thought it looked like Sergeant Fischer (Aleks Paunovic). I'll check the Sadgeezer transcript (as soon as it is posted). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:26, 23 January 2007 (CST)
:Not sure if it was Fisher, but I think he's one of the marines for sure --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:05, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::I'm pretty sure Dee says "Sarge?" after he gets shot. I could be wrong though. -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 06:23, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Sooner Rather Than / Or Later? ==

*The Cylons are relieved as well, but after the Three in the command room leaves in satisfaction, the others realize that the Cylon, a race predicated on consensus and not defiance or distinctive personality clashes, have a serious problem. A [[Cavil]] voices that the Threes are out of control, and that a decision regarding their actions must be made, sooner or later.

I recalled that line as "sooner, rather than later," implying that the other models were already considering boxing the Threes. Am I loosing my mind, or did I hear that right? --[[User:Saiboogu|Saiboogu]] 01:35, 24 January 2007 (CST)

::That's what I heard too. Or "maybe sooner, rather than later". --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)

:::I edited the line but left the implication that they were going to box her for the talk page. If I remember, I think it has already been implied on earlier episode summaries that the Threes may be boxed - it goes without saying on this page. {{unsigned|Saiboogu}}

== Multiple Cavil's? ==

Ron Moore mentions in the podcast that the fx crew were going to insert a shot of a Cavil in front of all of the Deanna pods. Just as he boxes her in the closeup all the others box all the other Deanna models in the long shot. But I don't believe there were any Cavil's in the long shot. Did anyone notice? --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)
: It looked like there were other Cavils doing the same thing to all the other Threes in the wide shot that ended the episode. It is rather interesting that Cavil's normally not among the models who participates in a post-resurrection midwifing, yet he's the only one there when a boxing takes place, no? --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 02:04, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:To me it looked like a lot of Cavil-activity too. If (as many people here believe) Cavil is Number Two, then his actions in this episode make perfect sense. He's the one who confronts D'Anna in the temple and almost kills her, he's the one who proposes boxing the Threes in the first place, and he's the one who ends up actually doing it. If Cavil is either Two or Four, he'd be the representative of the remaining Cylons and it would make sense for him to go on a boxing spree. Also, if Cavil is Two, he wouldn't want his 'leadership' status (as far as he has any; he didn't protest against the majority decision to attack the Colonies) threatened by the revelation of Number One (who I believe to be among the Final Five). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 03:39, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Deanna Recognition ==

Which of the main characters has Deanna had significant interactions with? Other than Baltar.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:47, 24 January 2007 (CST)
: Fleet-D'Anna from Final Cut interacted with Roslin, Adama, Tigh, and Lee. As for Downloaded/Final Five-D'Anna, it's just been Baltar, Doc Cottle and Anders, who she was a righteous bitch to and nearly killed by the way. --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 02:07, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:: I thought Fleet-D'Anna was Final Five-D'anna --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::: I think it's pretty obvious that the D'anna who found Hera and searched for the Five is the D'anna we know from Final Cut. Caprica-Three has a rather nastier temperament, both in Downloaded and in Occuprice. It's possible the Three who defies the basestar command in Rapture is Caprica-Three as well. I believe only one Number Three is referred to as D'anna and that's Final Cut D'anna. Note that even the other Cylons refer to her by that name. Normally, Cylons only seem to bestow individual names on a Cylon who has accomplished something significant. (For example, while D'anna mentioned speaking to a Simon, this was so Baltar would know who she's talking about.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:58, 24 January 2007 (CST)
:::: Yeah, that was the clincher for me, when the other Cylons called her D'Anna. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:19, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::::: The D'Anna that's been focused on recently is the one who was in Downloaded, see her flashbacks in [[Hero]] and the response from Bradley Thompson ([[Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques]]). She's probably called D'Anna because Baltar calls her that. The reporter D'Anna from Final Cut was in the fleet at the time of Downloaded, so they're not one and the same. Messiah-D'Anna may be the one shown at the end of Final Cut. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:34, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::::::I transcribed the conversation, I'm not sure about "it's a trick before I die", the line was barely audible.
:::::::D'anna: "The final five, is it really you?"
:::::::D'anna: "You."
:::::::D'anna: "Forgive me I ... I had no idea."
:::::::''transitions from D'anna holding mystery figure's hand in the vision to D'anna holding Balthar's hand in the temple''
:::::::Balthar: "No idea about what? What did you see? Who was it?"
:::::::D'anna: "So beautiful."
:::::::Blathar: "What was? Tell me am I one of you."
:::::::D'anna: "You were right."
:::::::Balthar: "About what? D'anna did you see my face? I have to know please. Please stay with me I have have to know. Tell me I have to know did you see my face? Am I a cylon?"
:::::::Balthar: "God ... it's a trick before I die."
:::::::Tyrol: "Welcome home mister president."
::::::It was pretty heavily implied that it was Balthar, although the "forgive me, I have no idea" line would also be consistant with [[Daniel Novacek|Daniel "Bulldog" Novacek]]. She could also be apologising for any as of yet unmentioned offscreen actions against any known or as of yet unintroduced character on Cylon occupied [[New Caprica]] or any of the Cylon-occupied Colonies. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:16, 24 January 2007 (CST)
::Fleet-Three from "Final Cut" can't possibly be Messiah-Three - during Three's first recreational suicide in "[[Hero]]", she flashes back to a scene from "Final Cut" set on Caprica. This means she's the same Three as the one watching the documentary in that episode, and not the one who was on ''Galactica'' at that time. She also flashes back to her death at the hands of Caprica-Six in "[[Downloaded]]", so we know that they are also the same character. Since it doesn't make sense for Messiah-Three to apologize for any actions taken by Fleet-Three, I think we can safely rule her out. That leaves the humans interacted with by Messiah-Three to be considered. There are only six candidates:
::*Sam Anders - Tried to kill him on Caprica ([[Downloaded]])
::*Tucker "Duck" - Blew her up at the NCP graduation ceremony ([[Occupation]])
::*Dodona Selloi - Consulted her regarding Hera's fate ([[Exodus, Part I]])
::*Cottle - Discussed Hera's cremation ([[Exodus, Part I]])
::*Felix Gaeta - Was present when she, Caprica-Six and Baltar evacuated Colonial One, but did not interact with him ([[Exodus, Part II]])
::*Denny "Bulldog" Novacek ([[Hero]]) - Interrogated by an anonymous "sick" Three on a Basestar.
::*Gaius Baltar
::In evaluating these, we should establish whether Messiah-Three has done anything to them worth apologizing for, and consider whether story logistics allow them to be a Cylon. Three has no reason to apologize to Duck, Selloi, Cottle or Gaeta, narrowing the field to just Baltar, Bulldog, and Anders.
::From a storytelling standpoint, Baltar can't possibly be a Cylon. They've teased it so much that there's no dramatic payoff if they reveal it now - it would be a total anticlimax. It also ruins his character's dramatic function, since Baltar's role is to be the guilt-ridden traitor. His character can't function as a Cylon. If James Callis ever intends to leave the show, revealing him as one of the final five would be a good way to write him out, but in the near-term, it's just not a possibility.
::Bulldog would be a completely uninteresting choice (since we know nothing about him and have no emotional investment in his character). Additionally, the actor will probably be difficult to book in the future, and the character has mitigating factors (a long military career with verified non-Cylons Bill Adama and Saul Tigh).
::This leaves Anders as the only possibility. Messiah-Three certainly has grounds to apologize to him, and he has no real mitigating factors - no history prior to his time with the Caprica Buccaneers, and (notably) no children with his wife, Kara Thrace. It also explains his remarkable ability to withstand and quickly recover from walking pneumonia ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]). --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:00, 25 January 2007 (CST)
:::Love the analysis. Who you narrow it down to makes sense. Anders is just a goofy guy, though. I personally find the Bulldog theory more interesting because of his connection to Adama and Tigh. If we see the character pop up in upcoming credits that might be a sign that they're filling out his backstory. Until then, though, maybe Anders will take on more shades, or the writers will have a dramatic twist that'll make Baltar a more convincing choice.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:53, 25 January 2007 (CST)

== Boxing the Threes ==

There is discussion around here about just how they boxed the entire Three line, so here's my idea:
*Send all your Cavils to the Resurrection Ship's Three Deck.
*Reprogram the Centurions to forget the Threes are Cylons.
*Have the Centurions fire upon all Threes they can find in the fleet. (Resurrection Ship's gonna work overtime on that)
*Have your Cavils box the downloaded Threes.
Any alternative ideas, anyone? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 03:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Here's my one main idea, based on looking at what happened once D'Anna saw the final five.

*One of the consequences of her seeing the final five was that the experience would overload her Cylon brain. Take note that her eyes glazed over and her nose started to bleed, inferring that there was some sort of hemmorage occuring, probably from the brain area. Since it has been shown many times throughout the series that the Cylon models amongst themselves can communicate with each other on a near telepathic level, whether it is for voting on leadership decisions or sharing memories. I believe it is entirely possible that once D'anna saw the final five, the shared memory of that forbidden knowledge was transmitted to all the other Threes, thus resulting in their own deaths as well.

When Cavil talked with D'Anna and told her to look at all the "damage" she had caused, he seems to be talking about all the other resurrection chambers around her. This implied to me that the damage that occurred was that every Three died at the same time & thus time and energy had to be spent to resurrect them all. I take this to be the final breaking point for the rest of the Cylon leadership as resurrecting an entire line of cylons would have taxed the resources they currently had, plus now that all the Threes have this shared knowledge of the final five, it is too dangerous to keep them around, thus the final boxing.

That's my 2 cents. I understand how the other explanations can work and may very well be one of those. However, considering how often RDM and crew bring in some religious and spiritual twists every so often into their stories, what happened to D'Anna could be akin to how some religious teachings bring up the idea that once a normal human being looks upon the face of a god, their penalty is immediate death. Even in the RDM podcast, he referred to the cause of the boxing to the occurence that they finally took a bite of the forbidden knowledge, a reference to the Fall of Man account in the Judeo-Christian teachings.

Either case, I don't think the Cylons did much to "box" all the Threes. The Threes died because of D'anna's encounter with the final five and thus made it much easier to box all of them as they're resurrected. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:29, 24 January 2007 (CST)

It's possible that The Threes simply accepted their faith? After all they were able to get a ship on the planet they had no further reason to disagree with the other cylons.

Also we see some people walking in the "boxing chamber" when Brother Cavil leaves. Who are they?--[[User:R4p70r|R4p70r]] 14:14, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:Rapture/Archive 1

2007-01-24T07:48:46Z

Galactageek: /* Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies */

== Photo ==

I think it's time to replace Universal logo with a promotional photo. The question is: with which one? My vote goes [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000t5fg5/g282 here]. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 05:36, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:Ditto. Make sure it's uploaded to the Media wiki properly first. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:11, 23 December 2006 (CST)
::It already is. Its used on the [[Final five]] page. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:06, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:::Ever notice how prevalent the Universal logo is on all of their products? It's particularly annoying when watching the Season One DVDs. They finally started cutting it from in front of individual episodes on the 2.5 discs. The logo is down-right... universal. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:51, 8 January 2007 (CST)

(referring to the picture) So this is where some of the members of the Grey Council went after Delenn dissolved it... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:11, 31 December 2006 (CST)
:Yeah. Better gig. Far more lighting. Sexier minions to grovel at your feet, too. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:22, 1 January 2007 (CST)
::Mmm. Minions. The twenty-first cannot come soon enough. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:49, 8 January 2007 (CST)
:::13 days, 10 hours, 31 minutes :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:28, 8 January 2007 (CST)

== My Predictions ==

Here's what I think we'll see tonight:
*Helo kills Athena so she can download and get Hera from the Cylons.
*Dualla goes Starbuck-hunting with Anders. They fall for each other, thus neatly wrapping up the Starbuck/Apollo/Anders/Dee love rectangle.
*Bill Adama nukes the bejeezus out of the algae planet. Chief, Cally, Barolay, and Bendis die. Everyone else makes it out on a heavy raider.
*The Final Five: Starbuck, Anders, Billy, Johnny Five, and Galvatron.
*Guest appearances by the SuicideGirls.

All of the above predictions are pulled directly from the darkest reaches of my rectum and should not be taken seriously. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:17, 21 January 2007 (CST)
: 1st idea: might actually possibly work even though it won't happen. 2nd: Good idea, actually. 3rd: Naw. 4th: Bahahahahaha. 5th: I wish. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:34, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:As they say on the forums, Galvatron ftw. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:57, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:Slander, I have an idea to make it even better. Option 3, take the "it" out of the 3rd sentence. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 16:26, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::Anders and Apollo making out? Hey, it could happen. They're both very pretty and Bamber is English. That's close enough to being a girl. And, hey, we'd get to see the inside of a heavy raider. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 17:46, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:::HOLY FRAK, SLANDER! HOW DID YOU KNOW?! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:09, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::::Chamalla tastes good with Swiss Miss. (Also, the Final Five member that D'anna apologizes to? Totally Galvatron.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:34, 22 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Also also, how'd y'all like those SuicideGirls cameos? Eh? Eh? --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:36, 22 January 2007 (CST)
::::::The Final Five person D'anna talked to was Galvatron, the other 4 were SuicideGirls. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 08:42, 22 January 2007 (CST)
: I bow down to Slander. I bet the writers were cackling for weeks after they came up with that idea.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:46, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies ==

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to suggest that
the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the Cylons. They
are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans.
So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord or at the very least
evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for enlightenment,
in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness perhaps even conciousness of the lords
in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the lords.
The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see developing
in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious leader in the original series
has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his fellow cylons
to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And yet, strangely,
he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother cylons, something you would expect of an
Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven,
he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a member of
a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself (greek gods), how satanic might he appear?
An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satans flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rull in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in hell.
So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica Aphrodite, Sharon Athena
and Deanna Hestia?. Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?
Adama and Laura and Zeus and Hera? two reason for two of the final five to stay where they are.
They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the flow,
well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and wonderful
in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge advances
by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of Stargate or the Vorlons
of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with higher beings
in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies
over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon
models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end sounds far more believeable
than actual gods and godesses.
{{unsigned|Mevenstar}}

: The was a good read.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:48, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Dualla's partner? ==

The summary mentions Dualla's partner being an unnamed civvie, but I thought it looked like Sergeant Fischer (Aleks Paunovic). I'll check the Sadgeezer transcript (as soon as it is posted). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:26, 23 January 2007 (CST)

== Sooner Rather Than / Or Later? ==

*The Cylons are relieved as well, but after the Three in the command room leaves in satisfaction, the others realize that the Cylon, a race predicated on consensus and not defiance or distinctive personality clashes, have a serious problem. A [[Cavil]] voices that the Threes are out of control, and that a decision regarding their actions must be made, sooner or later.

I recalled that line as "sooner, rather than later," implying that the other models were already considering boxing the Threes. Am I loosing my mind, or did I hear that right? --[[User:Saiboogu|Saiboogu]] 01:35, 24 January 2007 (CST)

::That's what I heard too. Or "maybe sooner, rather than later". --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Multiple Cavil's? ==

Ron Moore mentions in the podcast that the fx crew were going to insert a shot of a Cavil in front of all of the Deanna pods. Just as he boxes her in the closeup all the others box all the other Deanna models in the long shot. But I don't believe there were any Cavil's in the long shot. Did anyone notice? --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Deanna Recognition ==

Which of the main characters has Deanna had significant interactions with? Other than Baltar.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:47, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:Rapture/Archive 1

2007-01-24T07:47:45Z

Galactageek: Deanna Recognition

== Photo ==

I think it's time to replace Universal logo with a promotional photo. The question is: with which one? My vote goes [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000t5fg5/g282 here]. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 05:36, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:Ditto. Make sure it's uploaded to the Media wiki properly first. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:11, 23 December 2006 (CST)
::It already is. Its used on the [[Final five]] page. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:06, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:::Ever notice how prevalent the Universal logo is on all of their products? It's particularly annoying when watching the Season One DVDs. They finally started cutting it from in front of individual episodes on the 2.5 discs. The logo is down-right... universal. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:51, 8 January 2007 (CST)

(referring to the picture) So this is where some of the members of the Grey Council went after Delenn dissolved it... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:11, 31 December 2006 (CST)
:Yeah. Better gig. Far more lighting. Sexier minions to grovel at your feet, too. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:22, 1 January 2007 (CST)
::Mmm. Minions. The twenty-first cannot come soon enough. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:49, 8 January 2007 (CST)
:::13 days, 10 hours, 31 minutes :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:28, 8 January 2007 (CST)

== My Predictions ==

Here's what I think we'll see tonight:
*Helo kills Athena so she can download and get Hera from the Cylons.
*Dualla goes Starbuck-hunting with Anders. They fall for each other, thus neatly wrapping up the Starbuck/Apollo/Anders/Dee love rectangle.
*Bill Adama nukes the bejeezus out of the algae planet. Chief, Cally, Barolay, and Bendis die. Everyone else makes it out on a heavy raider.
*The Final Five: Starbuck, Anders, Billy, Johnny Five, and Galvatron.
*Guest appearances by the SuicideGirls.

All of the above predictions are pulled directly from the darkest reaches of my rectum and should not be taken seriously. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:17, 21 January 2007 (CST)
: 1st idea: might actually possibly work even though it won't happen. 2nd: Good idea, actually. 3rd: Naw. 4th: Bahahahahaha. 5th: I wish. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:34, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:As they say on the forums, Galvatron ftw. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:57, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:Slander, I have an idea to make it even better. Option 3, take the "it" out of the 3rd sentence. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 16:26, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::Anders and Apollo making out? Hey, it could happen. They're both very pretty and Bamber is English. That's close enough to being a girl. And, hey, we'd get to see the inside of a heavy raider. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 17:46, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:::HOLY FRAK, SLANDER! HOW DID YOU KNOW?! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:09, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::::Chamalla tastes good with Swiss Miss. (Also, the Final Five member that D'anna apologizes to? Totally Galvatron.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:34, 22 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Also also, how'd y'all like those SuicideGirls cameos? Eh? Eh? --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:36, 22 January 2007 (CST)
::::::The Final Five person D'anna talked to was Galvatron, the other 4 were SuicideGirls. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 08:42, 22 January 2007 (CST)
: I bow down to Slander. I bet the writers were cackling for weeks after they came up with that idea.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:46, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies ==

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to suggest that
the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the Cylons. They
are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans.
So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord or at the very least
evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for enlightenment,
in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness perhaps even conciousness of the lords
in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the lords.
The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see developing
in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious leader in the original series
has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his fellow cylons
to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And yet, strangely,
he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother cylons, something you would expect of an
Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven,
he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a member of
a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself (greek gods), how satanic might he appear?
An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satans flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rull in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in hell.
So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica Aphrodite, Sharon Athena
and Deanna Hestia?. Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?
Adama and Laura and Zeus and Hera? two reason for two of the final five to stay where they are.
They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the flow,
well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and wonderful
in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge advances
by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of Stargate or the Vorlons
of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with higher beings
in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies
over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon
models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end sounds far more believeable
than actual gods and godesses.
{{unsigned|Mevenstar}}

== Dualla's partner? ==

The summary mentions Dualla's partner being an unnamed civvie, but I thought it looked like Sergeant Fischer (Aleks Paunovic). I'll check the Sadgeezer transcript (as soon as it is posted). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:26, 23 January 2007 (CST)

== Sooner Rather Than / Or Later? ==

*The Cylons are relieved as well, but after the Three in the command room leaves in satisfaction, the others realize that the Cylon, a race predicated on consensus and not defiance or distinctive personality clashes, have a serious problem. A [[Cavil]] voices that the Threes are out of control, and that a decision regarding their actions must be made, sooner or later.

I recalled that line as "sooner, rather than later," implying that the other models were already considering boxing the Threes. Am I loosing my mind, or did I hear that right? --[[User:Saiboogu|Saiboogu]] 01:35, 24 January 2007 (CST)

::That's what I heard too. Or "maybe sooner, rather than later". --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Multiple Cavil's? ==

Ron Moore mentions in the podcast that the fx crew were going to insert a shot of a Cavil in front of all of the Deanna pods. Just as he boxes her in the closeup all the others box all the other Deanna models in the long shot. But I don't believe there were any Cavil's in the long shot. Did anyone notice? --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Deanna Recognition ==

Which of the main characters has Deanna had significant interactions with? Other than Baltar.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:47, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:Rapture/Archive 1

2007-01-24T07:46:45Z

Galactageek: /* My Predictions */

== Photo ==

I think it's time to replace Universal logo with a promotional photo. The question is: with which one? My vote goes [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000t5fg5/g282 here]. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 05:36, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:Ditto. Make sure it's uploaded to the Media wiki properly first. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:11, 23 December 2006 (CST)
::It already is. Its used on the [[Final five]] page. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:06, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:::Ever notice how prevalent the Universal logo is on all of their products? It's particularly annoying when watching the Season One DVDs. They finally started cutting it from in front of individual episodes on the 2.5 discs. The logo is down-right... universal. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:51, 8 January 2007 (CST)

(referring to the picture) So this is where some of the members of the Grey Council went after Delenn dissolved it... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:11, 31 December 2006 (CST)
:Yeah. Better gig. Far more lighting. Sexier minions to grovel at your feet, too. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:22, 1 January 2007 (CST)
::Mmm. Minions. The twenty-first cannot come soon enough. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:49, 8 January 2007 (CST)
:::13 days, 10 hours, 31 minutes :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:28, 8 January 2007 (CST)

== My Predictions ==

Here's what I think we'll see tonight:
*Helo kills Athena so she can download and get Hera from the Cylons.
*Dualla goes Starbuck-hunting with Anders. They fall for each other, thus neatly wrapping up the Starbuck/Apollo/Anders/Dee love rectangle.
*Bill Adama nukes the bejeezus out of the algae planet. Chief, Cally, Barolay, and Bendis die. Everyone else makes it out on a heavy raider.
*The Final Five: Starbuck, Anders, Billy, Johnny Five, and Galvatron.
*Guest appearances by the SuicideGirls.

All of the above predictions are pulled directly from the darkest reaches of my rectum and should not be taken seriously. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:17, 21 January 2007 (CST)
: 1st idea: might actually possibly work even though it won't happen. 2nd: Good idea, actually. 3rd: Naw. 4th: Bahahahahaha. 5th: I wish. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:34, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:As they say on the forums, Galvatron ftw. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:57, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:Slander, I have an idea to make it even better. Option 3, take the "it" out of the 3rd sentence. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 16:26, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::Anders and Apollo making out? Hey, it could happen. They're both very pretty and Bamber is English. That's close enough to being a girl. And, hey, we'd get to see the inside of a heavy raider. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 17:46, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:::HOLY FRAK, SLANDER! HOW DID YOU KNOW?! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:09, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::::Chamalla tastes good with Swiss Miss. (Also, the Final Five member that D'anna apologizes to? Totally Galvatron.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:34, 22 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Also also, how'd y'all like those SuicideGirls cameos? Eh? Eh? --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:36, 22 January 2007 (CST)
::::::The Final Five person D'anna talked to was Galvatron, the other 4 were SuicideGirls. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 08:42, 22 January 2007 (CST)
: I bow down to Slander. I bet the writers were cackling for weeks after they came up with that idea.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:46, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies ==

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to suggest that
the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the Cylons. They
are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans.
So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord or at the very least
evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for enlightenment,
in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness perhaps even conciousness of the lords
in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the lords.
The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see developing
in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious leader in the original series
has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his fellow cylons
to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And yet, strangely,
he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother cylons, something you would expect of an
Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven,
he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a member of
a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself (greek gods), how satanic might he appear?
An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satans flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rull in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in hell.
So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica Aphrodite, Sharon Athena
and Deanna Hestia?. Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?
Adama and Laura and Zeus and Hera? two reason for two of the final five to stay where they are.
They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the flow,
well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and wonderful
in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge advances
by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of Stargate or the Vorlons
of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with higher beings
in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies
over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon
models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end sounds far more believeable
than actual gods and godesses.
{{unsigned|Mevenstar}}

== Dualla's partner? ==

The summary mentions Dualla's partner being an unnamed civvie, but I thought it looked like Sergeant Fischer (Aleks Paunovic). I'll check the Sadgeezer transcript (as soon as it is posted). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:26, 23 January 2007 (CST)

== Sooner Rather Than / Or Later? ==

*The Cylons are relieved as well, but after the Three in the command room leaves in satisfaction, the others realize that the Cylon, a race predicated on consensus and not defiance or distinctive personality clashes, have a serious problem. A [[Cavil]] voices that the Threes are out of control, and that a decision regarding their actions must be made, sooner or later.

I recalled that line as "sooner, rather than later," implying that the other models were already considering boxing the Threes. Am I loosing my mind, or did I hear that right? --[[User:Saiboogu|Saiboogu]] 01:35, 24 January 2007 (CST)

::That's what I heard too. Or "maybe sooner, rather than later". --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Multiple Cavil's? ==

Ron Moore mentions in the podcast that the fx crew were going to insert a shot of a Cavil in front of all of the Deanna pods. Just as he boxes her in the closeup all the others box all the other Deanna models in the long shot. But I don't believe there were any Cavil's in the long shot. Did anyone notice? --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:Rapture/Archive 1

2007-01-24T07:44:42Z

Galactageek: Multiple Cavil's?

== Photo ==

I think it's time to replace Universal logo with a promotional photo. The question is: with which one? My vote goes [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000t5fg5/g282 here]. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 05:36, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:Ditto. Make sure it's uploaded to the Media wiki properly first. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:11, 23 December 2006 (CST)
::It already is. Its used on the [[Final five]] page. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:06, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:::Ever notice how prevalent the Universal logo is on all of their products? It's particularly annoying when watching the Season One DVDs. They finally started cutting it from in front of individual episodes on the 2.5 discs. The logo is down-right... universal. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:51, 8 January 2007 (CST)

(referring to the picture) So this is where some of the members of the Grey Council went after Delenn dissolved it... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:11, 31 December 2006 (CST)
:Yeah. Better gig. Far more lighting. Sexier minions to grovel at your feet, too. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:22, 1 January 2007 (CST)
::Mmm. Minions. The twenty-first cannot come soon enough. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:49, 8 January 2007 (CST)
:::13 days, 10 hours, 31 minutes :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:28, 8 January 2007 (CST)

== My Predictions ==

Here's what I think we'll see tonight:
*Helo kills Athena so she can download and get Hera from the Cylons.
*Dualla goes Starbuck-hunting with Anders. They fall for each other, thus neatly wrapping up the Starbuck/Apollo/Anders/Dee love rectangle.
*Bill Adama nukes the bejeezus out of the algae planet. Chief, Cally, Barolay, and Bendis die. Everyone else makes it out on a heavy raider.
*The Final Five: Starbuck, Anders, Billy, Johnny Five, and Galvatron.
*Guest appearances by the SuicideGirls.

All of the above predictions are pulled directly from the darkest reaches of my rectum and should not be taken seriously. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:17, 21 January 2007 (CST)
: 1st idea: might actually possibly work even though it won't happen. 2nd: Good idea, actually. 3rd: Naw. 4th: Bahahahahaha. 5th: I wish. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:34, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:As they say on the forums, Galvatron ftw. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:57, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:Slander, I have an idea to make it even better. Option 3, take the "it" out of the 3rd sentence. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 16:26, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::Anders and Apollo making out? Hey, it could happen. They're both very pretty and Bamber is English. That's close enough to being a girl. And, hey, we'd get to see the inside of a heavy raider. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 17:46, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:::HOLY FRAK, SLANDER! HOW DID YOU KNOW?! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:09, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::::Chamalla tastes good with Swiss Miss. (Also, the Final Five member that D'anna apologizes to? Totally Galvatron.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:34, 22 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Also also, how'd y'all like those SuicideGirls cameos? Eh? Eh? --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:36, 22 January 2007 (CST)
::::::The Final Five person D'anna talked to was Galvatron, the other 4 were SuicideGirls. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 08:42, 22 January 2007 (CST)

== Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies ==

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to suggest that
the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the Cylons. They
are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans.
So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord or at the very least
evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for enlightenment,
in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness perhaps even conciousness of the lords
in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the lords.
The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see developing
in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious leader in the original series
has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his fellow cylons
to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And yet, strangely,
he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother cylons, something you would expect of an
Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven,
he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a member of
a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself (greek gods), how satanic might he appear?
An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satans flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rull in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in hell.
So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica Aphrodite, Sharon Athena
and Deanna Hestia?. Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?
Adama and Laura and Zeus and Hera? two reason for two of the final five to stay where they are.
They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the flow,
well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and wonderful
in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge advances
by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of Stargate or the Vorlons
of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with higher beings
in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies
over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon
models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end sounds far more believeable
than actual gods and godesses.
{{unsigned|Mevenstar}}

== Dualla's partner? ==

The summary mentions Dualla's partner being an unnamed civvie, but I thought it looked like Sergeant Fischer (Aleks Paunovic). I'll check the Sadgeezer transcript (as soon as it is posted). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:26, 23 January 2007 (CST)

== Sooner Rather Than / Or Later? ==

*The Cylons are relieved as well, but after the Three in the command room leaves in satisfaction, the others realize that the Cylon, a race predicated on consensus and not defiance or distinctive personality clashes, have a serious problem. A [[Cavil]] voices that the Threes are out of control, and that a decision regarding their actions must be made, sooner or later.

I recalled that line as "sooner, rather than later," implying that the other models were already considering boxing the Threes. Am I loosing my mind, or did I hear that right? --[[User:Saiboogu|Saiboogu]] 01:35, 24 January 2007 (CST)

::That's what I heard too. Or "maybe sooner, rather than later". --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== Multiple Cavil's? ==

Ron Moore mentions in the podcast that the fx crew were going to insert a shot of a Cavil in front of all of the Deanna pods. Just as he boxes her in the closeup all the others box all the other Deanna models in the long shot. But I don't believe there were any Cavil's in the long shot. Did anyone notice? --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:Rapture/Archive 1

2007-01-24T07:41:50Z

Galactageek: /* Sooner Rather Than / Or Later? */

== Photo ==

I think it's time to replace Universal logo with a promotional photo. The question is: with which one? My vote goes [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000t5fg5/g282 here]. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 05:36, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:Ditto. Make sure it's uploaded to the Media wiki properly first. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 07:11, 23 December 2006 (CST)
::It already is. Its used on the [[Final five]] page. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:06, 23 December 2006 (CST)
:::Ever notice how prevalent the Universal logo is on all of their products? It's particularly annoying when watching the Season One DVDs. They finally started cutting it from in front of individual episodes on the 2.5 discs. The logo is down-right... universal. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:51, 8 January 2007 (CST)

(referring to the picture) So this is where some of the members of the Grey Council went after Delenn dissolved it... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:11, 31 December 2006 (CST)
:Yeah. Better gig. Far more lighting. Sexier minions to grovel at your feet, too. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:22, 1 January 2007 (CST)
::Mmm. Minions. The twenty-first cannot come soon enough. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:49, 8 January 2007 (CST)
:::13 days, 10 hours, 31 minutes :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:28, 8 January 2007 (CST)

== My Predictions ==

Here's what I think we'll see tonight:
*Helo kills Athena so she can download and get Hera from the Cylons.
*Dualla goes Starbuck-hunting with Anders. They fall for each other, thus neatly wrapping up the Starbuck/Apollo/Anders/Dee love rectangle.
*Bill Adama nukes the bejeezus out of the algae planet. Chief, Cally, Barolay, and Bendis die. Everyone else makes it out on a heavy raider.
*The Final Five: Starbuck, Anders, Billy, Johnny Five, and Galvatron.
*Guest appearances by the SuicideGirls.

All of the above predictions are pulled directly from the darkest reaches of my rectum and should not be taken seriously. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:17, 21 January 2007 (CST)
: 1st idea: might actually possibly work even though it won't happen. 2nd: Good idea, actually. 3rd: Naw. 4th: Bahahahahaha. 5th: I wish. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:34, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:As they say on the forums, Galvatron ftw. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:57, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:Slander, I have an idea to make it even better. Option 3, take the "it" out of the 3rd sentence. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 16:26, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::Anders and Apollo making out? Hey, it could happen. They're both very pretty and Bamber is English. That's close enough to being a girl. And, hey, we'd get to see the inside of a heavy raider. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 17:46, 21 January 2007 (CST)
:::HOLY FRAK, SLANDER! HOW DID YOU KNOW?! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:09, 21 January 2007 (CST)
::::Chamalla tastes good with Swiss Miss. (Also, the Final Five member that D'anna apologizes to? Totally Galvatron.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:34, 22 January 2007 (CST)
:::::Also also, how'd y'all like those SuicideGirls cameos? Eh? Eh? --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:36, 22 January 2007 (CST)
::::::The Final Five person D'anna talked to was Galvatron, the other 4 were SuicideGirls. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 08:42, 22 January 2007 (CST)

== Concerning religion of the cylons and the colonies ==

Keeping Ron Moore's twists and turns from the original series I would like to suggest that
the Lords of Kobol and the "jealous" god, are for all intensive purposes the Cylons. They
are modeled after and therefore more directly linked to the deities say than Adama is "being Zeus" among the humans.
So much so that specific units have become avatars, perhaps posessed of a lord or at the very least
evolving an actual soul in likeness of a lord.

12 cylons = 12 olympians
Final Five - Temple of Five

The mystery of the final five hints to them being something other
that the existing models. Perhaps these five could not be replicated
like the others because of their conflict with the cylon god.

Clearly a more human "being" is developing in Deana in her search for enlightenment,
in Caprica in her search for Love and in Sharon in her self acceptance.
With Deanna the search for enlightenment became so overpweing
the entire line was boxed. With Sharon it's almost as if the humanity
Boomer clung to has moved to Agathon. Boomer is not the woman that
would not leave her human apartment after resurrecting,
but both have in their own fashion esentially accepted who they are.
Caprica appears in a constant state of conflict that many humans will relate to,
while her etherial counterpart is the self assured herald of her cylon maker.

For all the pagan references in the original series we still had Count Iblis
and the ship of lights taking on very familliar christan concepts of angels
and satan. Nothing is ever quite that black and white in the reimagined series.

While the reference has been fleeting, the notion of a god outside the
Lords of Kobol is clear, and he would be the cylons god. Dodona Selloi seems to refer to the cylon god as nothing more or less than a lord of kobol.
My thought is that somehow this jealous god has sort of ensnared the likeness perhaps even conciousness of the lords
in creating the cylon race, so closely that single copies become avatars of the lords.
The final five could be so possesed that they are not part of the cylon race,
refusing the mechanations of the cylon god. Others an avatar is what we see developing
in Sharon, Deanna and Caprica.

And even the cylon god, the Count Iblis whose voice was that of the imperious leader in the original series
has a model: Brother Cavel. Cavel is horribly wicked, he is always urging his fellow cylons
to the most horrific of actions. He appears out of nowhwere all the time. And yet, strangely,
he seems to honor the importance of free will in his dealings with his brother cylons, something you would expect of an
Abrahamic god. He's not Satan then who would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven,
he is just far more satanic or evil than any characterization offered by a member of
a known pantheon of gods.

Yet another twist, If the Abrahmic god were competing with beings like himself (greek gods), how satanic might he appear?
An abrahamic god accepts free will: I can't make you worship me.
But is flawed like miltons Satan, if you don't worship me , your damned.
Satans flaw in paradise lost was saying better to rull in hell than serve in
heaven. What he should have said was better to live free on earth not rule in hell.
So Cavel is a marvelous blend of an Abrahamic God & Satan floating through
space in a base ship with 7 of 12 would be Olympians. Caprica Aphrodite, Sharon Athena
and Deanna Hestia?. Starbuck/Artemis is the next to come forward?
Adama and Laura and Zeus and Hera? two reason for two of the final five to stay where they are.
They have human avatars leading the fleet. Three male cylons just go with the flow,
well the male gods were always kind of boring anyway. At least if your a fan of Wonder Woman.

The twist from original series to re-imagined series are always surprising and wonderful
in many ways. In the world of Sci Fi televison, the original Galactica made huge advances
by considering the existence of higher beings. Where would the Ancients of Stargate or the Vorlons
of Babylon be without Battlestar Galactica? Will we see actual communion with higher beings
in the re-imagined series? I don't expect to. It would gnaw at the the gritty realism of the show.

The idea of this entire exodus from the colonies seeking earth, unifying to a new Kobol, then breaking off back to earth and the colonies
over and over seems entirely plausible. Gods are at the very least real in a metaphoirical sense and 12 cylon
models living in peace with a vast race of humans on new a Kobol in the end sounds far more believeable
than actual gods and godesses.
{{unsigned|Mevenstar}}

== Dualla's partner? ==

The summary mentions Dualla's partner being an unnamed civvie, but I thought it looked like Sergeant Fischer (Aleks Paunovic). I'll check the Sadgeezer transcript (as soon as it is posted). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:26, 23 January 2007 (CST)

== Sooner Rather Than / Or Later? ==

*The Cylons are relieved as well, but after the Three in the command room leaves in satisfaction, the others realize that the Cylon, a race predicated on consensus and not defiance or distinctive personality clashes, have a serious problem. A [[Cavil]] voices that the Threes are out of control, and that a decision regarding their actions must be made, sooner or later.

I recalled that line as "sooner, rather than later," implying that the other models were already considering boxing the Threes. Am I loosing my mind, or did I hear that right? --[[User:Saiboogu|Saiboogu]] 01:35, 24 January 2007 (CST)

::That's what I heard too. Or "maybe sooner, rather than later". --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:The Eye of Jupiter/Archive3

2007-01-24T07:37:48Z

Galactageek: /* WTF moment */

I wonder if it has to do with that big red spot... *rollseyes* --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:48, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm more reminded of that Writer's Podcast thing, you know when they're saying "How many more times are we going to find an artifact like the Arrow of Apollo and have to search for them all? That feels like going back to the well too many times, I mean what are we going to say, "Athena has 10 sacred toenail clipping scattered across space, you have to find them all...?" :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:49, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:i'm thinking along the lines of some jewelry. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:57, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

::It sounds like a good plotline actually. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:05, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Merv - you just made me spill forth mein coca cola whilst reading the section about the sacred toenail clippings - thats too much for 3am on a sunday morning! Still, plot looks good, just wish Season 3 would hurry up and AIR dammit! :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 21:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
::::No, really, they make a joke about "Athena's toenail clippings" in that writer's podcast thing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:12, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I have a few possible meanings for 'eye of Jupiter' --[[User:starryniteynite|starryniteynite]]

1) Relatively obscure name for NGC 3242, a planetary nebula (A ring of illuminated gas expanding out from a sun-like star that's exhausted its fuel, and has lost its outer layers) a few thousand light years from Earth. Most astronomers call this 'the Ghost of Jupiter' instead, though some Hubble images have used this name. Its not a very unique PN (tho it has some gas streamers we can't quite explain), but it could be used as a navigational marker like M8 (the lagoon nebula). It is a very pretty nebula :)

2) "Eye of Jupiter" was the Greek/Roman name for the sun, which lead to today's 'all seeing eye' symbol of the free masons and on the pyramid in US currency

3)Adama=Zeus=Jupiter...yes, they tend to use Greek vs. Roman names, but the titles are not always consistent with this convention, and we have also seen evidence for non Greek mythological names (Isis, for example). The rest of it could be wordplay too...'eye' might refer to someone acting as Adama's eyes, rather than his eyes literally (just as 'The captain's hand refereed to Lee acting as Gardner's XO, or his hand, rather than some captain's literal hand)

4)A reference to Jupiter's big red spot, a huge hurricane-like storm on the planet's surface. Just like the "bastille Day" title, this could reference something in the episode, but not directly...they might travel through a similar storm. This has actually been done before in the miniseries, when Galactica travels into the storm at Ragnar

5) The tried and true, ancient object meaning...just like the arrow of Apollo directly references a character, but has no link to the character himself, this could just be a pretty piece of bling..

Personally, I would love #1, but only because it'd make me 2/2 for BSG objects in my thesis and I'm a total, unabashed geek. I think its probably #2, however, and they find some sort of navigational means of finding Earth (like a picture of Earth w/ distances& directions to three pulsars or very unique objects

== Duelling Sharons ==

So did anyone else get a sense of animosity/jealousy between the two Sharons? While it seems that Boomer has accepted her place amongst the Cylons and no longer considers herself a part of the humans, it also seems that she's a bit jealous of Athena's "taking her place", if you could call it that. Likewise, it also seemed that aside from her duties as a Colonial officer, Athena's refusal to let Boomer in with Adama was also somewhat out of personal distrust, ironically the same distrust of the Cylons that her fellow Colonial colleagues have.

Also, while Boomer told Athena about Hera's condition out of possible concern of the child (possible strain of humanity left in her? Cylon imperative? Or something else?), seems to me that Boomer enjoyed bursting her "sister"'s bubble on that. Talk about sibling rivalry there.

It'll be interesting to see if there will be any further Sharon vs. Sharon confrontations in the series.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 23:55, 15 December 2006 (CST)

:It was a very, very interesting dynamic. In any other show, we would have had a knock-down dragout "catfight." You hit the nail on the head. This episode was prime stuff. And, we on the wiki should be commended: our ''Galactica'' nuke count is right on the money! (Either that, or the show is using ''us'' as a source! :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:20, 16 December 2006 (CST)

::Does that mean we can finally change the "Class-D Nuclear Warhead" to something completely different, since their nukes ''aren't'' Class-D? :P --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:42, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Image==
Let's find an image that actually occurs in this episode. Maybe the wide shot of Tyrol in the temple? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Heh which one? to me it seems the Chief was a bit wide in ALL shots ; how could he gain weight while the fleet was starving? the chief definitely deserves the Lee Adama Fat-Ass trophy --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 03:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:Maybe it was Chief, and not Dr. Cottle, that got all of Kat's energy bars from the last ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:25, 16 December 2006 (CST)

So... is someone with the means actually going to replace the image with one relevant to this episode? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 21:12, 20 December 2006 (CST)

:Silly joking aside, I agree that the picture should be replaced. I'd do it, but I don't have a good screencap --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:34, 23 December 2006 (CST)

:I happen to have the episode, so, it's done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:57, 23 December 2006 (CST)

::Well, I still see a thumbnail of the old image here and there (e.g. on the main page or on Mercifull's user page). -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:09, 27 December 2006 (CST)

:::You may need to purge your browser's image cache to see the new image. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:12, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::I've just purged my Maxthon's image cache a moment ago and I still see an old thumbnail. Tried that also with Opera and Firefox -- all the same. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 04:27, 28 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Starbuck survive?==
Horray for the carelessness of adverts! Within ten minutes we knew the answer to that one. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Aside from that, it's going to continue the cycle of Soap Opera unease there, if Dee's the one sent to go get Starbuck back. Can't wait to see the uncomfortable stares on that one, especially if (as I suspect) Dee set up Starbuck to be the "eye in the sky" '''hoping''' the Cylons would shoot her down.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Who else was supposed to fly the mission? Looks like Lee and Kara are the only two qualified pilots on the ground and Lee is needed in overall command. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:34, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Nuking the Planet==

Does anyone else think that the nuclear missiles have the ability to be detonated remotely, before they reach their target? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:44, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Not to mention abort code transmissions, etc. Makes you wonder if the missiles were set for "one shot, one kill" mode, where they could not be recalled.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Or perhaps the missiles can be aborted, until they reach a critical flight time. Could make for a ''very'' tense moment or two. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:Is it just me or didn't he actually give the order to fire. He said "release of nuclear weapons is now authorized". That might sound strange, but I took that to be a preliminary order to firing. For example that now even Tigh would be able to launch them on his say --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:03, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::No, you're correct on that; essentially all they were doing was opening the "barn doors". I was discussing the hypotheticals of the missiles, if they should be launched in the next ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:33, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:::Aye, we're just jumping the gun a little, and discussing possibles ways out of it, if Adama does indeed decide to launch :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 02:17, 21 December 2006 (CST)

::::Am I the only one who thinks he might be targeting the nukes for the Raiders on their way to the surface? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:53, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:::::Then why this-
:::::'''Adama''':Load target package three-bravo. Set ground zero for the underground structure.
::::: -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:19, 29 December 2006 (CST)

:::::: Damn, I missed that. Consider me stumped, then. -[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:17, 30 December 2006 (CST)

I watched the episode for the first time last night. I had this theory after the show ended...If the star of this system is going to go supernova, as Gaeta has described,

("Gaeta: Could be tomorrow. Could be next year. There's no way of knowing for sure, sir. When it does happen, the only warning that we're likely to get is a fast helium flash, at which point we'll have to jump out of here before it obliterates the entire planetary system. Sir, I am not one to look for religious signs. But I can't get my head around these odds. That human and Cylon both converge on this planet at this exact moment just as the star's about to go supernova…")

there most likely is an abundance of solar phenomena being emitted from the sun, maybe an increase of solar flares even. Solar flares have the "energy equivalent to a billion megatons, traveling normally at about 1 million km per hour"..."They produce electromagnetic radiation across the electromagnetic spectrum at all wavelengths from long-wave radio to the shortest wavelength gamma rays:(solar flare wiki ref.) I know that Solar Flares can disrupt electronics on and orbiting earth, and I'm sure Galactica's systems are somewhat protected from bursts of electromagnetic energy...but somehow I had the idea that the nukes are probably not as well insulated. Since there is so much solar activity in the region, I had the idea that maybe something like a flare (not the helium flash Gaeta talked about) would happen just as the nukes were launched..causing them to blow in the upper atmosphere directly over the temple. This would allow for quite a light show, and perhaps could allow that light shaft in the Temple of Five to be intensified. On the BaseStar with Baltar and Three, the Hybrid mentions something about "the five lights of the apocalypse" here:

"Hybrid: ...I don't care if it rains or freezes, as long as… the five lights of the apocalypse rising... sins revealed only to those who enter the temple, only to the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, the chosen one, end of line. Until next time … the eye, the eye, the eye, look into the eye to know thyself."

Maybe this is the way the temple is activated, maybe this is how the eye of Jupiter (Jupiter/Zeus/Adama's nukes) appears over the temple and activates the key...and Hey, maybe the solar flare would take care of the Heavy Rader flight systems too...Who knows, just an idea I had wished to share.

"Chief: And the heavens opened up, and they saw the Eye. But where is that frakking Eye?"

--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:08, 3 January 2007 (CST)

:Holy crap that's a good theory. Wow. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 12:06, 3 January 2007 (CST)
:Nice theory indeed. Maybe the five lights of the apocalypse are actually five nukes? Nukes would qualify as lights of apocalypse, but then so would a supernova. Also, I revisited the Hybrid's prophecy: ("Find the hand that lies in the shadow of the light, in the eye of the husband of the eye of the cow"). The light is most likely the bright star cluster (although it could also be the nukes, the supernova or the helium flash), but "in the shadow" hasn't really been explained properly. Now I just realized that since the temple is an underground structure, it would be in the shadow all the time. Might be something, might not be something, we'll see. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 13:47, 3 January 2007 (CST)

== WTF moment ==

I was on the [[Karl Agathon]] page, updating it for this ep's news, when I came across [[:Image:Valley_of_Darkness-Starbuck_Helo.jpg|this old picture]]. Considering how Kara's painting looks and that she's religious (though not indoctrinated in any sort of clerical form, unlike Chief Tyrol's parentage), does anyone think that (in hindsight), this may have been a hint to the Eye itself?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:37, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: It actually makes a lot of sense... Taking Zeus to mean Admiral Adama, and that Kara Thrace is the go-to pilot for reconnaissance missions, AND the paintings on the walls, we have a plausible theory in the works! —The preceding '''unsigned''' comment was added by {{User|Alcibiades}}.
: Are you kidding me?! They set this episode up a year ago! --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: I find it pretty hard to believe too, but that painting ''really really really'' looks like the art in the temple. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 20:41, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Maybe they though it would be a nice idea to take that painting, put it in the Temple more than a season later, and see if we notice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::It's a painting in her room and part of the column in the temple. :) --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:31, 19 December 2006 (CST)
: So Starbuck is an artist. She paints The Eye of Jupiter. Is it a known symbol or is this the first time anyone else has seen it? If it's not well-known, what does that say about Starbuck? Doesn't it make her prescient? Maybe her true calling is as an oracle. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:29, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::I'm with Catrope here. If I'm remembering my "Valley Of Darkness" podcast correctly, Tahmoh and Katee painted the apartment themselves, without any direction from Ron or the rest of the show crew. It's quite possible that someone noticed that particular pattern and decided to make it significant. And, hey, maybe she ''is'' an Oracle who just hasn't realized that she has the gift. Give the girl some chamalla and see what she can do. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Starbuck found a spiritual calling to fill the enormous gaps in her soul that she tries to fill with sex, booze, speed, duty, and violence. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:33, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:A friend of mine told me he though the painting and the decoration looked a lot like a star or an explosion, and then brought up the word "supernova". Could this picture be some sort of reference to the star going supernova? (I must admit I'm contradicting myself here, because I said earlier I thought the similarity to be some sort of an inside joke. Of course it's possible that Sackhoff&Penikett accidentally painted something that looked like an explosion, and that's why the writers chose that particular painting.) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:36, 22 December 2006 (CST)
::I've updated the [[Cylon agent speculation]] article on Thrace's entry with the two pictures in question. This is not a coincidence; there is some connection, but we have to wait to know what. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:45, 12 January 2007 (CST)
Well it turns out Mitsukai was right, and a lot of others were not!--[[User:Alcibiades|Alcibiades]] 05:43, 23 January 2007 (CST)
:Mitsukai was right, brilliantly found indeed, but don't forget about me and my friend :P (see comment above). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 07:30, 23 January 2007 (CST)
::Catrope, you were dead on. Ron Moore confirms on the podcast that Sackhoff painted it on the set and the writers, looking at that shoot sometime during the writing of this episode, decided to incorporate it. It's kind of scary how the parts fit together so neatly even though they ARE coming up with stuff by the seat of their pants. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:37, 24 January 2007 (CST)

== 18 Casualties & Relevance to "The Passage" ==

If 18 people were lost from '''The Passage''' episode, that means that 17 (at most) were aboard those two lost civilian ships, right? I'm only bringing this up to clarify what transpired — from that, and what we saw, the Raptors would pair up with a civilian ship, and that ship's passenger complement would be transferred onto ''Galactica'' (more heavily shielded, combat FTL drive) for the ferry run through the cluster. The civilian ship would then be crewed by an absolute bare minimum number of crewers. Then, when the group reached the other side of the cluster, the passengers would be transported back to their ships (if they survived the passage), the ships would remain at "Algae-planet", and ''Galactica'' would turn around and go back to the original side to repeat the cycle over again for a new group of civilian ships?

Am I reading/viewing this right? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:53, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:The ships were manned by skeleton crews. That was even mentioned in "The Passage" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:01, 16 December 2006 (CST)

: Don't forget that 14 days have transpired. there could have been more births in the fleet. I just came up with the difference from the two episodes--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

== Humanoid Cylons recognize each other on sight ==

While back on New Craprica, Number 3 knew right away that it was Sharon Agathon. Of course, who else would be trying to remove the ship's launch keys?

This episode, we see that Athena knew on sight that this Number Eight was Boomer. Interesting.

Can Cylons tell on sight which of the copies they are? It's already established that the bulletheads can't.

Note in last weeks episode, Baltar was able to pick The D'anna number three out of the hallway on sight, even though there is an identically dressed number three in the same hallway. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 16:50, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Those two instances do prove that they do recognize one another, which was hinted at in the "[[Cylon Agent]]" page. I guess now it's more than a hint. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:54, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Names of marines==
Has anyone heard (or seen in close captions) the names of the marines that were with Starbuck and Dualla? I know one of them is [[Fischer]], but the other three? I heard something like: Criggs, Verek, Ditko. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:According to the caption, it's Griggs and Varrick; the spelling/pronouncation of the third lad is anyone else's guess. For some reason, the closed caption for this episode doesn't pick up everything for me. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:48, 17 December 2006 (CST)

::OK, we know that it's [[Fischer]], [[Griggs]], [[Varrick]], [[Henick]] and [[Ditko]]. Since after she says "Henick and Ditko" the camera centers first on the black guy and then on the bald guy, can we assume that the first one is Henick and the latter one is Ditko, and the one in a hat is Griggs? It's conjectural, but looks reasonable to me and it would be nice to add pictures to their articles. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 14:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Location of the Eye? ==

At the end of the episode, Tyrol says something about "the sky will open, and the eye will be revealed." Did that make anyone else think of the star going nova? -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 22:15, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Good idea, but is it possible that such a "blowup" could be predicted in the sacred scrolls thousands of years ago? -- [[User:SuperMMX|SuperMMX]] 01:15, 17 December 2006 (CST)
::Why not? A race of humans capable of traveling from Kobol to Earth probably knows at least as much about stellar evolution as the Colonials [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:39, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: The [[Sacred Scrolls]] have so far contained information about [[Laura Roslin]] being sick, [[Sharon Agathon]] helping them to find the [[Tomb of Athena]], and more... In addition to various prophetic dreams... Sure, they could have predicted it. -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 11:26, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:When Tyrol commented about blowing up the Temple, I already thought "What if the Eye is INSIDE the pillar and they have to blow it up to get it out?" But surely an explosion destroying the entire system would destroy the Eye as well? And if it didn't, the Eye would not be easy to find between the debris of an entire planet. But blowing up a pillar doesn't exactly qualify as "the sky will open"... Maybe it refers to blowing up the roof or something like that... --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:04, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: Note the shaft of light streaming across the central pillar in the final scenes of the episode. Perhaps something will be revealed when it becomes centered upon the prominent symbol seen there. --[[User:Spidey3|Spidey3]] 12:29, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::That was the way my mind was working. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:39, 18 December 2006 (CST)
I believe that the Sky Opening Up will be the explosion of the nuclear weaponry activating or destroying something which will then reveal the Eye. --[[User:Teal Thanatos|Teal Thanatos]]

== Boomer in the brig? ==

Did Boomer get thrown in the galactica brig once Athena pointed her out? Was she allowed to return to the Basestars? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:49, 17 December 2006 (CST)

I doubt it because they probably would have it done right there rather than holding her outside first. I'm sure they let her leave with the others and advised her not to let the door hit on the arse on the way out. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:46, 17 December 2006 (CST)

:Besides, the least thing they need on ''Galactica'' right now would be Boomer to break out of the brig, throw on a uniform and have a "Guess the Sharon" contest. Aside from that, I expect that kind of trite plotwork I just mentioned from lesser sci-fi series, not this one.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Summary ==

We really need a longer summary up there, the only point it currently mentions is kind of random -_- --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:58, 17 December 2006 (CST)

== D'anna's search for the five vs. the Temple of Five ==

I haven't seen much discussion on the connection between "the five" Cylons and the Temple of the Five. Since the Temple was built by the 13th tribe, a connection doesn't seem likely in a conventional linear timeline; but like the painting in Starbuck's apartment, it's hard to dismiss as a mere coincidence.

Such a connection does, however, clear up some verisimilitude issues for me – namely, the rate at which the Cylon's biological technology advanced in relation to both Cylon and Colonial conventional technology.

In less than 40 years' time, the Cylons were able to develop the Cylon Agents – and in such a way that made indiscernable from humans – and all of the ressurection technology that went with it. Meanwhile, their conventional, mechanical technology hasn't made nearly the same leaps. And Colonial technology hasn't advanced much at all. Pegasus was a much more formidable vessel than Galactica, but only in terms of size and firepower. Technologically speaking, they weren't that dissimilar. Everyone's still using nuclear missles as their most advanced form of weaponry.

Clearly, the Cylons have had a little help. Now, with dual references to a group of five that must not be named, we're starting to get an idea of from where that help may have come.

I'm not sure how that jibes with the Cylon's monotheistic religion (also established within those 40 years), versus the Colonies' polytheism, but I'm sure Mr.Moore has it worked out.

How great it is to have a show with a fleshed out story line already established, as opposed to the "make it up as we go" approach to shows like Star Trek (all incarnations), X-Files and Lost over our last 40 years. {{unsigned|Tylonius}}

:To ''Battlestar's'' credit, it did take a while to flesh out the story from a viewer's perspective, but what we know is quite intriguing. Their God and the Colonial gods may be one and the same, and may change how the Cylons treat the Colonials and vice versa. I don't think the five faces will be all shown, but we might see one. And yes, it is good to enjoy a show that makes a greater effort to maintain a consistent storyline. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:01, 18 December 2006 (CST)

::Time may not be an issue. Remember the Colonial Scriptures are full of prophecies, it wouldn't be too farfetched to assume that the Temple of Five could've been constructed for something before it happened, for the purpose of making it happen in due time.

::The Five could do whatever releated them to the temple much like Roslin is directly related to finding the tomb Athena, even though she lived thousands of years after everything else was set.

::This is all speculation, of course, but oh well....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 13:59, 19 December 2006 (CST)

:::The Final Five are directly connected to the Temple of Five: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/12/one_of_the_cent.html -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:16, 20 December 2006 (CST)

::::“Essentially the Temple of the Five is directly connected to the five Cylons we have not seen.” - RDM
::::I've been thinking about the ambiguous ''sins'' the [[Hybrid]] mentions, that appear to be in regards to the Five. My working theory is that the five priests who served "The One Who Cannot Be..." and the Five Cylon Models who served the Cylon God both committed the ''sin'' of Rebellion, and that both dieties they rebelled against are one and the same. I also (big leap now), think that Model One is among the Rebel Five. Being rebel ''Angels of God'' (as Virtual-Six refers to herself), that would make One the RDM-equivalent to TOS-Lucifer, now wouldn't it? Chief and first of the (from the cylon perspective) "fallen" angels (as opposed to speculation that One ''is'' the Cylon God) --[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 02:16, 23 December 2006 (CST)

== Human Nicknames ==
I cropped the following from the episode summary. Nothing against either point, just taking it off until somebody can figure out how to reconcile it into a single level deep bullet point (or points).
Cropped text:
*This is the first time the Cylons use "human" names on the basestar when not speaking to Baltar. D'Anna is named by Caprica-Six and another Number Three. Cavil's name is used by D'Anna.
**It is possible that these names are nicknames for the Cylons who've been amongst the humans (much like Caprica-Six), but it could also be the writers weaseling out of coming up with numbers for Cavil, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]] and [[Simon]]. In ''[[The Passage]]'', D'Anna even mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons".
Thanks. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Err how about:
*This episode marks the first time the Cylons use "human" names when not speaking to Baltar: Caprica-Six and another Three call D'Anna by her human name, who in turn uses Cavil's name. These could be nicknames for Cylons who've been living among humans (cf. [[Caprica-Six]]).
*Once again, the writers have dodged the issue of [[Cavil]]'s, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s and [[Simon]]'s numbers. In "[[Torn]]", Caprica-Six says "The ones you know as Leoben...", in "[[The Passage]]" Number Three mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons" and in this episode a Three simply calls one of the Cavils "Cavil".

Please correct my style here, I didn't know exactly how to quote/paraphrase things like "one of the Simons" etc. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:One bullet point might be enough if the second part is connected with a word like "thus". However we shouldn't use "weasling". It sounds too negative and critical where criticism isn't really needed. Maybe something like "dodging the issue" or "circumventing"? That means the same and isn't as POV.
:Btw: episode names aren't italicized, but put in quotation marks --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Edit first post, episode titles quoted instead of italicized, second bullet point reprashed and "weaseling" changed to "dodged".
I don't think joining the bullet points with "this" between them is going to make this any clearer. I also don't think it's necessary, as both points may be related but analyse different things (the remaining numbers vs. Cylon naming convention). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:28, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:I think the writers are working with established names for convenience. They may not want to create a number yet to not confuse some viewers or there may be a grand scheme of introducing more numbers later in the season or another season that involves the 5 unknown cylon models. They could be maintaining flexibility for themselves in this case. They also know that the people who care the most are us die-hard fans and they can drag us through the mud without giving us more info, but I don't think so with as generous and courteous as Ngarenn is on BW:OC.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 11:10, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::It wouldn't be too hard to introduce a new number though. We've heard plenty of statements like "We Threes think we can't take the risk.", ideal statements to introduce new numbers with. Of course these numbers aren't a big deal, but die-hard fans tend to like to know these details. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::True. Though the more detail the introduce, the more chances they have to get it wrong. Even with the few model numbers we have revealed RDM sometimes has [[Podcast:The_Passage#Act_1|difficulty keeping them straight]], confusing the Eight's (Sharons) with the Three's (D'annas). Either way, we'll be here, documenting. I sometimes wonder if we're (the die-hard detail documenters) aren't his worst nightmares (if we even bothers thinking about us). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:52, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::::I always thought it was a nice nod to buckaroo banzai where all the villains had the same first name. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 22:05, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::I believe it would make sense that there is a plan with rolling out the remaining agent numbers. For example, whether or not "One" is one of the missing Five has a great deal of bearing on the development of the cylon narrative, and so would be kept quiet until the episode revealing that fact. If He/She is one of the missing Five, but "Two" is not, then Two's identity ([[Cavil]], [[Leoben]], or [[Simon]]) also has a great deal of bearing on the narrative. Cavil has been shown using some leverage on Three. He's got my money for being Two. I think One is with the missing Five.--[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 22:58, 25 December 2006 (CST)

== Question on article ==

*When did [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] go over to the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons']] way of thinking? In this episode she clearly doesn't seem to think of herself as human anymore like she did in "[[Downloaded]]."
:I had assumed that by LDYB, II that the Cylons had gone over to Boomer and Caprica-Six's way of thinking, hence their (C-six and Boomer) sudden rise to power as well as the sudden Cylon cease-fire. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:24, 19 December 2006 (CST)

== Hera ==

I cannot believe that Adm. Adama has apparently no idea what happened to Hera. He was involved in this discussion in [[Downloaded]]. He should knew that Hera and her foster mother moved to [[New Caprica]]. I am very surprised that he became so angry after Roslin told him that she kept the child in her school. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 17:21, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:Adama and Roslin only agreed in "[[Downloaded]]" that Sharon cannot be allowesd raise the baby. Maybe he assumed/was told that Hera was killed by Cottle? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:34, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::That they concluded at the discussion that the child should be killed would fit with this episode events and Baltars look at the end of "Downloaded" when being chided by his internal six. However that option was mentioned onscreen and the entire tone of the conversation at that point makes it seem somewhat unlikely that this would been the final decision. Given that Baltar was never in on the adoption-plot (he apparently didn't know Hera was alive on New Caprica) and we now know Adama didn't know about it either the discussion outcome must have been either to kill the child or to postpone the decision (with Heras apparent death solving the problem). I'm quite willing to buy that Adama believed the child had died a natural death, given that complication in a hybrid between man and machine were to exspected. But I have troubles with Roslin doing it all behind Adamas back (why did she have to do that?) and Adama not making a decision whatever immediately (in Downloaded). [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 17:40, 21 December 2006 (CST)

== Recent Summary Reorganization Problems ==

I'm normally OK about reorganization of a summary, but the recent one handled by SgtPayne creates more work and confusion. Links previously added are missing, conventions once there are missing, and the narrative flow of the summary is extremely confusing. Normally we can break up events by location (events on Galactica, basestars, planets) because they are mostly separate events that don't directly connect, but this episode has both Cylons and Colonial events occurring in response to each other and in "real-time." I am ''this close'' to rolling back the summary and adding edits made afterwards to restore both narrative flow and conventions, but I wanted comments from others first. As an admin I would just roll it back because of all the wikilinking and convention breakage, but it's more than that. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:36, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:This is one that I might suggest we do "Act" reporting summary. So the events are intertwined. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:56, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::I believe that's exactly what the summary contained before that infamous edit: a chronological report of the events in this episode. Since everything and everyone interacts with eachother and is at the same place, that would be a logical choice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:03, 20 December 2006 (CST) (I hate edit conflicts)
:I haven't checked it for style and links, but I agree that the summary should be chronological. Splitting up the locations is fine if they aren't related. But as you said, here they are heavily interwined and dependent on each other --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:57, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:'''Revert.''' It looked better the way it was. The new split makes for a very confusing read. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)

I have reverted the article and restored relevant edits made after that reorganization. One persistant edit that I keep changing involves the "shaft of light" in the Temple as Tyrol is inspecting the symbology in the Temple. That "shaft" is Tyrol's flashlight beam. While that direct light ''might'' do something unexpected as it approaches the central target-shaped symbol, it's not coming from some mystic source within the structure. I've clarified this in the article. Contributors are always free to edit it, but its fairly clear, so analysis should be used to interpret what it might do. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:48, 20 December 2006 (CST)

In light of the recent reversion, I should drop my two cents in regarding the "reorganization". When I first read the article, I felt that it was too "narrative" rather than "summary", which is what the section suggests. The consolidation was an attempt to make the information as concise as possible. I also attempted to keep as many reference links as necessary. In regards to the location split, this was done in line with previous articles, which had definitive locations. My apologies if it confused readers, but it should be said that summaries are just that, and should not be play-by-play accounts of the episode. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 12:18, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:The location split you introduced is good practice when there are multiple storylines that do not interfere with eachother. A nice example of that is "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]". In most episodes this is the case (end s1-begin s2 even had 3 or 4 separate storylines), but in this particular episode the three locations affect eachother so greatly that the split you introduced makes for extemely confusing reading: a bullet point in the basestar story references events told in the Galactica part, and viceverse. (Let's not even start about the Algae Planet part). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:45, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::You bring up a good point. In trying to put it together, there were some areas where I wasn't sure where to put it. On the whole, I was looking to clean it up a bit. Trying to read it line-for-line blurs out after a while... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 14:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::I've broken up the summary into acts. It seems to solve both problems. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:24, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::aye. nice job. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:34, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::::I concur. It definitely cleans up the look of the page. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:55, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Missile Tubes==
Where exactly are they and shouldnt that be an article in "Galactica Areas" Snorkel378

:They are located on the dorsal side of the ship, slightly forward of the four guns ahead of the Colonial seal, and sit in two rows of six. And sure, why not create an article in that section? -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:12, 29 December 2006 (CST)

== More Nested Analysis ==
*The [[tylium]] planned for the mines could only come from their single Raptor. This supports the [[Substances in the Re-imagined Series#The Tylium Question|high energy yield of the fuel]] that, at the same time, would not sacrifice the Raptor's flight ability.
**It's also possible that the tylium used was fuel stored at the camp to power its generators and/or refuel the Raptors and other ships involved in the harvest.
Please resolve these into either one or two single-level bullets, then re-add to the article. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:56, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:Done. I also updated the nuke count in this section. Admiral Adama orders launch tubes four through ten loaded, which means he's prepared seven nuclear warheads, not six. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:05, 22 December 2006 (CST)
::Nicely done. Thanks! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:51, 22 December 2006 (CST)

Major Point:
Note that Hera is the wife of Roman God Jupiter, the derivative of the Greek Zeus. {{unsigned|PhoenixFlight}}
:Yes, Hera's counterpart in the Roman pantheon is Juno. The association is noted over many episodes to date. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:22, 6 January 2007 (CST)

== Playing with the date? ==

In Kobol's Last Gleaming, they stated the ruins on Kobol were 2000 years old, "around the time of the exodus of the 13 tribes". When they found the beacon at the Lion's Head Nebula, they said it was 3000 years old, and now they're saying the Temple of Five is at least 4000 years old. Each time they give a new date a thousand years earlier, it seems to still coincide with the exodus date of the thirteenth tribe.

Am I the only one noticing this inconsistancy?

: My memory may be off, but I was under the impression that the 13th tribe left Kobol long before the other twelve. So... maybe the 13th tribe left 4k years ago, and the rest left 2k years later. Fanwankery? Spotty memory on my part? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 02:08, 25 December 2006 (CST)

::Both, sort of. The date in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I" refers to all thirteen tribes collectively. In "A Measure of Salvation" and "The Eye of Jupiter", they refer to the thirteenth tribe alone.
::'''Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I'''
:::Roslin: How old are the ruins?
:::Billy: We won't know for sure until they send a ground team, but the initial estimates have it on the order of approximately 2,000 years.
:::Elosha: That's around the time the thirteen tribes first left Kobol
::'''A Measure of Salvation'''
:::Adama: According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3,000 years ago. Right around the time that the Thirteenth Colony left Kobol.
::'''The Eye of Jupiter'''
:::Tyrol: Our initial radiocarbon dating suggests that the temple's at least 4,000 years old, which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe.
::--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:16, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:::Here's a thought. What if this isn't an accident? We've speculated already that humanity might have emigrated from Earth to Kobol before the thirteenth tribe returned. If the further away from Kobol we get, the older the artifacts we find, what does that tell us? That the thirteenth tribe was traveling not from Kobol to Earth, but from Earth to Kobol. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 06:03, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::Well, it may not be an accident, but the Colonials seem to think that the 13th tribe left Kobol for Earth. So why, upon finding that the artifacts get older as they journey further from Kobol/closer to Earth, would they conclude that the dating analysis confirms their scriptures? Put another way, if they dates say the tribe went from Earth to Kobol, but the scriptures say they went from Kobol to Earth, why aren't the Colonials confused? It's an interesting idea, nonetheless. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:29, 31 December 2006 (CST)

:::::Okay, it could also be that we're giving the Colonials too much credit in their dating. Elosha is a priest. Maybe her date of 2,000 is based on scripture, not fact. Also, the date of 4,000 could just mean that it predates the time that they knew the other 12 colonies left Kobol, thus it had to be built by the 13th tribe. The 13th tribe may have had outposts all throughout the galaxy while still calling Kobol home. Furthermore, since there are apparently 21,000 years of recorded history, maybe to the Colonials a few thousand years of inaccuracy in dating don't really make a difference. You could compare it to modern day humans who confuse the 15th and 16th centuries. Of course, now I'm fully in the territory of fanwanking/making up excuses. The seven months/nine months disparity with regard to the Colonial election was never even acknowledged, so there is a good possibility these inconsistent dates are just a product of sloppiness. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:40, 31 December 2006 (CST)

Nut we Don't know how long it took to get everyone from earth off of kobol because it would take awhile to get huge civilizations away from a planet.Snorkel378

== Dichotomy of Signs to Earth==

I find it rather interesting that the first real sign to Earth that they found was a satellite/probe (first found by the Cylons). This would represent the high tech sign-post to Earth. The second sign to Earth is this hidden "Temple of Five" which is plainly a spiritual sign. Anyone else thing this is very interesting? I wonder what was on the satellite. Too bad RDM didn't allow them to examine it. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 21:57, 26 December 2006 (CST)

==The G-4==
Hey how come in the summary it doesnt mention the G-4 about to go off right by Tyrol? Snorkel378

:*Unaware how events are escalating around and above him, Chief Tyrol illuminates the carved writings of the Temple with his flashlight and reads the inscriptions, trying to locate the actual resting place of the Eye. At one point, his flashlight's beam moves close to the target-shaped symbol in the center of the central spire.
:How about we make that:
:*Having strapped explosives to the central spire of the temple, Chief Tyrol...
:--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:17, 31 December 2006 (CST)

No I mean the activation light on 1 of the explosives is blinking which means it is going to detonate.The article does not mention that.
Snorkel378
:There is nothing to suggest that the blinking lights don't simply mean that it is armed rather than about to explode. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])

Yes but the music can easily tell u what is happening and it has a danger coming sound to it-Snorkel378
:Thats fanwanking. We have seen nothing to suggest that the explosives are about to detonate. All we know is that the explosives are armed and the flashing light could simply be to note that fact. You may very well be right but so far there has been no aired information to say that you are and until the next episode airs we wont know. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 03:24, 3 January 2007 (CST)

You are right I geuss im some crazy kid huh :) Snorkel378

:The explosives set by Tyrol and Anders in Occupation have a light that blinks, but the explosives only go off when the detonator is activated. The light is in no way indicative of and impending explosion -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 15:51, 12 January 2007 (CST)

== Last name in the credits ==

Okay, after a month, I think I finally found the last remaining actor/character in the closing credits. Thanks to the inane sense of necessity in scrunching the credits (so they can apparently advertise the same things they do 23 times a day in normal commerical airtime) I was unable to read the last name, getting the first two through squinting and deduction. I skimmed one last time and believe I found the last, unreadable name. According to
[http://www.thelogbook.com/logbook/series/battlestar-galactica-new/newgalactica-season-3/page/2/ this site] it's [[Tygh Runyan]] as Pvt. [[Byers]]. I looked at the guy at IMDb and although he's not given the credit (no surprise), he ''can'' be spotted in the episode. Even [http://tv.yahoo.com/battlestar-galactica/show/the-eye-of-jupiter-part-1/episode/111786/castcrew Tv.Yahoo], a considerably more reliable source, has him listed (sans character name). Any disagreement in adding him? I'm sure someone here has clear visual access to the credit, but I'm going through a consensus since it hasn't been added by said "someone". --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 00:04, 16 January 2007 (CST)
:Do you have a screenshot for us to look at? Might be best to wait for it to air in HD then it will be much clearer. Alternatively ask on the [[Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques]] page. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 03:27, 16 January 2007 (CST)
:: TYoJ Will be airing in HD over here in a few weeks, not sure about America though. [[User:MatthewFenton|MatthewFenton]] 03:32, 16 January 2007 (CST)
:::I have the iTunes copy of this: I've confirmed the same names and spelling. Do we know where he is (on the planet?). That would be enough to make a stub. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:23, 16 January 2007 (CST)
I've only spotted him in one scene. It's at the start of Act 4 when Anders is dividing them up into two teams. He is among those Sam is talking to, wearing a cap and at one point, he's given an entire frame (with Anders' shoulder in the foreground). He appears mainly in a shot where he is at the very left, with Lee, Barolay, and Anders to his right. I hope that paints a good enough picture since I'm unable to get a screencap. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 13:59, 16 January 2007 (CST)

Battlestar Wiki talk:The Twelve Colonies

2006-12-21T04:46:59Z

Galactageek: /* FLags */

I think fleet issues should be treated seperately from the issues of the twelve colonies unless the evidence of a certain item is likely to be found in both. What I mean is, we never see the Quorum of Twelve until the third to last episode of the first season, however it most definitely did exist in the twelve colonies only items such as this should be found in the twelve colonies but because we no nothing of the Quorum of Twelve pre-holocaust nothing more than a reference should be in any substantial article refering to this time. Most people would recognize the fleet post-holocaust is a very unique and different situation from the one experienced on the twelve colonies, therefore the fleet should be treated as such by this site.
--Zareck Rocks 21:29, 9 September 2005 (EDT)

==FLags==
Looking over the section on "People from X Colony" http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Category:Colonial I noticed that some of the Banners for the Colonies themselves are incorrectly assinged. Still getting my feet wet regarding WikiEditing...and don't wish to step on any toes...unsure how to go about making the corrections?
-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

: There's been a ''lot'' of discussion about the flags of the Colonies. See [[Talk:The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|this page]]. Before you go swapping the images around, I'd make ''dern'' sure you explain what scenes or other information you're basing your edits on. There are a ''ton'' of incorrect, sloppily-applied sources for the flags on the internet and we're trying not to be one of them. Anyway, cite your sources (and in this case because it's been debated so long, do so before editing), or the [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|Citation Jihad]] will come for you in your sleep. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:00, 8 February 2006 (EST)

==Historical Earth references==
Are these things... what sounds egyptian, what sounds jewish, etc... listed anywhere? Someone today mentioned to me that the Twelve Tribes sound like the biblical Twelve Tribes of Israel which spent "40 years of wandering in the desert" before finding a home. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_tribes
I'm a newbie and not sure even where to look.

Talk:New Caprican loco weed/Archive 1

2006-12-21T04:10:05Z

Galactageek: /* Because I Got High (BSG Mix) */

After the smoking scene in [[Unfinished Business]], I had to create this page. I figured I'd make it in my user page space for now until I can get some comments on it. What do you all think? [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 13:42, 6 December 2006 (CST)
:+1 Funny (in Slashdot moderating parlance). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:29, 6 December 2006 (CST)
:+1 Funny! A worthy candidate for a new silly page. In fact, I even have a song to go with it (or the process of intoxication in general). Could explain the upcoming food shortages..they all have the chronic munchies! --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:33, 6 December 2006 (CST)
::Nice! I had forgotten all about the food shortage! Hehehehehe .... Thanks for the comments guys, I'm pretty happy with how it has turned out. I'm going to copy the contents to a mainspace [[New Caprican loco weed]] page on the strength of your kudos. Thanks much! [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 16:37, 6 December 2006 (CST)

Brilliant. Just brilliant. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 09:08, 7 December 2006 (CST)

== Because I Got High (BSG Mix) ==

:''Sung to the tune of "Because I Got High" by [[Wikipedia:Because I Got High|Afroman]]''

([[Saul Tigh]] sings)
::I got annoyed at my [[Ellen Tigh|wife]], because I got high
::She slept with half of the fleet, while I was high
::She's dead and I need more booze, and I know why
::'Cause I got high, 'cause I got high, because I got high

([[Gaius Baltar]] sings)
::I was living the life so richly, I was so high
::Winning fame and [[frak]]king babes, 'cause I was high
::Now [[Cylon agent|machines]] do nothing but frak me, and I know why
::'Cause I got high, 'cause I got high, because I got high

([[William Adama]] sings)
::I was just following orders from [[Corman]], I wasn't high
::The [[Armistice Line]] was boring, thought I'd get high
::And now the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|worlds]] are [[Toaster|toasted]], and I know why
::'Cause I got high, 'cause I got high, because I got high

([[Laura Roslin]] sings)
::Busy with the teachers strike, I wasn't high
::Busy putting the [[Galactica|Bucket]] to bed, I wasn't high
::Now I'm thinking of frakkin' Adama, and I know why
::'Cause I got high, 'cause I got high, because I got high

([[Kara Thrace]] sings)
::Lying to [[The Old Man]] about [[Zak Adama|Zak]], 'cause I was high
::Lying about loving [[Lee Adama|Lee]], 'cause I got high
::They got me chasin' [[Talk:The Eye of Jupiter|Athena's Toenails]], and I know why
::'Cause I got high, 'cause I got high, because I got high

(All)
::Living on New Caprica, 'cause we are high
::Living on borrowed time, 'cause we got high
::And now we're getting shot at, and we know why
::'Cause we got high, 'cause we got high, because we got high --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:35, 7 December 2006 (CST)

:That was... just... is there a special award we can give [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] for this? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:55, 8 December 2006 (CST)
::[[Battlestar Wiki:Star of Kobol|Star of Kobol]], I suppose. (With the necklace part being made up of hemp instead of the usual cloth? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:19, 8 December 2006 (CST)
:: Funny funny stuff! What about something based on the toenails quip? --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:24, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::You inspired me. See above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:56, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::Sweet!--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 22:10, 20 December 2006 (CST)

Talk:New Caprican loco weed/Archive 1

2006-12-20T07:24:31Z

Galactageek: /* Because I Got High (BSG Mix) */

After the smoking scene in [[Unfinished Business]], I had to create this page. I figured I'd make it in my user page space for now until I can get some comments on it. What do you all think? [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 13:42, 6 December 2006 (CST)
:+1 Funny (in Slashdot moderating parlance). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:29, 6 December 2006 (CST)
:+1 Funny! A worthy candidate for a new silly page. In fact, I even have a song to go with it (or the process of intoxication in general). Could explain the upcoming food shortages..they all have the chronic munchies! --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:33, 6 December 2006 (CST)
::Nice! I had forgotten all about the food shortage! Hehehehehe .... Thanks for the comments guys, I'm pretty happy with how it has turned out. I'm going to copy the contents to a mainspace [[New Caprican loco weed]] page on the strength of your kudos. Thanks much! [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 16:37, 6 December 2006 (CST)

Brilliant. Just brilliant. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 09:08, 7 December 2006 (CST)

== Because I Got High (BSG Mix) ==

:''Sung to the tune of "Because I Got High" by [[Wikipedia:Because I Got High|Afroman]]''

([[Saul Tigh]] sings)
::I got annoyed at my [[Ellen Tigh|wife]], because I got high
::She slept with half of the fleet, while I was high
::She's dead and I need more booze, and I know why
::'Cause I got high, 'cause I got high, because I got high

([[Gaius Baltar]] sings)
::I was living the life so richly, I was so high
::Winning fame and [[frak]]king babes, 'cause I was high
::Now [[Cylon agent|machines]] do nothing but frak me, and I know why
::'Cause I got high, 'cause I got high, because I got high

([[William Adama]] sings)
::I was just following orders from [[Corman]], I wasn't high
::The [[Armistice Line]] was boring, thought I'd get high
::And now the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|worlds]] are [[Toaster|toasted]], and I know why
::'Cause I got high, 'cause I got high, because I got high

([[Laura Roslin]] sings)
::Busy with the teachers strike, I wasn't high
::Busy putting the [[Galactica|Bucket]] to bed, I wasn't high
::Now I'm thinking of frakkin' Adama, and I know why
::'Cause I got high, 'cause I got high, because I got high

(All)
::Living on New Caprica, 'cause we are high
::Living on borrowed time, 'cause we got high
::And now we're getting shot at, and we know why
::'Cause we got high, 'cause we got high, because we got high --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:35, 7 December 2006 (CST)

:That was... just... is there a special award we can give [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] for this? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:55, 8 December 2006 (CST)
::[[Battlestar Wiki:Star of Kobol|Star of Kobol]], I suppose. (With the necklace part being made up of hemp instead of the usual cloth? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:19, 8 December 2006 (CST)
:: Funny funny stuff! What about something based on the toenails quip? --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:24, 20 December 2006 (CST)

Talk:The Eye of Jupiter/Archive3

2006-12-19T07:31:13Z

Galactageek: /* WTF moment */

Talk:The Eye of Jupiter/Archive3

2006-12-19T07:29:58Z

Galactageek: /* WTF moment */

Talk:The Eye of Jupiter/Archive3

2006-12-17T01:39:03Z

Galactageek: /* WTF moment */

User:Galactageek

2006-12-17T00:59:31Z

Galactageek:

It's the first tv show I've actively tried to watch with friends on a regular basis. It helps when you get a kick ass episode like Eye of Jupiter or Unfinished Business where you can shout back at the screen. As a kid I was a big fan of the original, too, although I suspect now I'd find it sorta cheesy.

Talk:The Passage/Archive 1

2006-12-15T20:46:15Z

Galactageek: /* Jupiter = Zeus */

== I cried ==
When I watched the episode tonight, I cried at the end. It was a really sad ending. If an episode makes me cry, that means ''it'' was '''really''' good. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:31, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:I was just left in shock. What a way to die...and to do it knowingly while saving a civilian ship... [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:46, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:You weren't the only one, Shane. You weren't the only one. Note to Self: When an episode summary says "we'll learn more about a character in this episode," prepare for mourning. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::I love Kat, I also shed a tear. :'( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:14, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:::I saluted her picture as Starbuck hung it up, with tears in my eyes. This is one of the few episodes I've watched this season while not having a few beers in me, and I'm glad I did so. I'd have probably been Weepy McEmo all night otherwise. You can bet that, next Friday, I'll be pouring one out for Kat. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:28, 11 December 2006 (CST)

== Tether? ==

Why didn't Galactica just tether the Raptors to their ships? Or use the magnetic clamps that Raptors have to literally attach to the ships? They wouldn't lose any ships, it would save time, and be safer all at the same time. - [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 09:21, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Jumping is precise, but not that precise. We don't know if a Jump between tethered ships, if they didn't occur simultaneously, would be a fatal move, or do nothing. In any case, the intense heat and buffeting in the cloud would likely make a tether snap or melt and be worthless. Magnetic clamping might have been possible given that Vipers that perform combat landings hold themselves fast within Galactica. However, performing a Jump while ''outside'' of another ship (which is also Jumping) is probably a Bad Idea. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:06, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Likely for the same reason Galactica has to close flight pods: Each ship's ftl drive is only capable of allowing it to jump, dragging a raptor along likely is no more possible the for galactica to jump with deployed flight pods. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)

I'm sorry but this part of the story still doesn't make sense to me. Why did the raptors have to be outside of the ships to give them jump coordinates? If radiation would fry the civilian ship computers why not simply park a raptor in their landing bays and let their computers do the work.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:15, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Likely because the Raptor's sensors cant operate from inside a metal, radiation shielded landing bay... They werent designed for that type of use. Also, it may be very likely that many ships lack a landing bay, instead relying on airlocks to connect to other ships. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)

:It still doesn't make sense to me. Why not weld the raptor directly to the out hull of the civilian ships? If the rapter's computers are so well shielded why not just wrap the computers of the civilian ships in protective armour. Clearly the jump computers are small enough to be contained in a small rapter so the amount of material necessary to harden them couldn't be all that much

::Simple answer: it wouldn't have been very dramatic from a storytelling point of view, would it? The fact that the civilian ships relied on the Raptors and their pilots- who, clearly, are fallible- increases the tension exponentially. It hits our characters that bit harder when ships are lost, because they feel it is their fault. By giving the civilian ships the same capabilities of the Raptors, you take away the whole point of having the episode :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 12:18, 10 December 2006 (CST)

:: Dramatic presentations aside, many civilian ships could have carried a Raptor in their cargo hull until after the first jump. Then they could launch their Raptor and make the second jump. Colonial One, a ship actually small enough to land in Galactica's landing bay, is shown with a Raptor in it's hull during the mini-series. Colonial One also rescued Apollo's Viper when he had an emergency. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)

::: It seems to me to be a poor idea to open your landing bay in the middle of that radiation storm, whatever it was. That could be a good excuse for not doing that one. --[[User:Larrik|Larrik]] 22:38, 12 December 2006 (CST)

::Welding the raptors would have taken more time than the fleet could have really afforded. Plus, though it seems like a good idea, the intense heat inside that star cluster seems to indicate that if they were to try that, the raptor and the ship would become inseparable because of the melding of the metal. Every raptor that came back was charred and smoking, not sure if they would have been able to pull each attached raptor off the ships. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:28, 12 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Kat Die?==
I know this is a stupid question but why did starbuck a picture of her in the memorial hall? Snorkel378
:Yes, she died because she received a twice-fatal dose of radiation --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:10, 9 December 2006 (CST)

Then WHy did Adama Still MAke Her CAG? WHo would make someone who is dead Be A CAG. And We never saw her die. snorkel378
:It's glaringly obvious that she died. We didn't need to see her last breath to know it. She received two fatal doses. She was dying in sickbay. Kara gave her pills if she wanted to comitt suicide, because dying from radiation poisoning is extremly ugly.
:The promotion is a honorary and morale thing. It was merely posthumous, but Apollo is still the acting CAG. Adama thought that Kat's leadership and bravery are a good example for the crew --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:19, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Kat does die; there is no way for her to survive extreme radiation poisoning. However, the show's writers do not show this to enhance the drama of the moment. (Oh, Snorkel, to make an automatic signature, place four tilde characters (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) at the end of your entry.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::I'd say it's better that we didn't see her actual death. Death scenes ''can'' a clicé if not done right. Just showing its impact on the other character was far better and more effective IMO --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:27, 9 December 2006 (CST)

U guys know that this is a thery, we would have to ask the writer. Come on what if she is still insickbay some later episode in rehab? then waht would you guys say. OO and KAra gave Kat Skin rebuilds she even said that in the scene. So u might be alive but we should not be so quick to say she died because there is no ground proof. Snorkel378 P.S. i dont give a damn about an automatic signature
:She gave her an overdose of sleeping pills. And I haven't listened to the podcast yet, but it probably "confirms" her death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)

::Yep, the podcast confirms that Kat died. Just got done listening. And Snorkel, there's no need to get ratty, we just try to help :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:41, 9 December 2006 (CST)

:While the podcast does make it explicit, the story as aired makes it clear.
:* We're told that flying after the tag turns black is lethal. Kat's turns black twice
:* Kara gives her "sleeping pills ... enough"
:* When Adama tells Kat he's promoting her, she asks him herself if he knows that she's not making it out of sick bay. He does.
:* Kat isn't present when her promotion is announced. This would only happen if not only she wasn't available at the time but she never would be. If she will recover, you wait until she can be present.
:* Finally, Starbuck posts her picture on the memory wall.
:So, the answer to the question "Why did Starbuck put her picture on the wall?" is "so the audience would know that she died".
:What makes the show so appealing to me is the quality of the writing. They take the time to tell the story through the character interaction, the emotional moments. They could have had her die on screen when she collapsed and made it explicit. But instead, they write it more powerfully. --[[User:Brons|Brons]] 11:45, 9 December 2006 (CST)

::Excellent points, Brons. Another example of writing that sets BSG above other shows. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:49, 9 December 2006 (CST)

She was A good Character, Snorkel378

:Agreed. She was one of my favourite characters :( --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::Poor Kat :( *wipes away tears* --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)

No doubt, Kat's dead. All the reasons above. The wall is a memorial for those who are dead, not those who are sick. And it was even in the news a former Russian spy just got wacked (assasinated by Russia) a couple weeks ago with just a small dose of radiation. Most people don't realize how dangerous radiation is because we don't deal with it on a day-to-day basis, but just a little bit can kill you. I feel that all those pilots were getting more than a small dose, other than just Kat. There could be reprocutions for all of them in the future as their health deteriorates over time.

Kat dying in this way, they could have nixed the B side story to flesh out her story. Kat was a very compelling character and her going out, well, the whole D'Anna dying over-and-over thing and the Baltar 3-way is getting boring and tedious so they could have spent more time with the Kat story. Even thus, They still did a good job of making a dramatic finish even if the story could have used a few more details.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 13:01, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:The Baltar and Three storyline is neither boring nor tedious and had only four short scenes in this episode. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::That's all opinion. Everybody's entitled to their own. But I wanted to see more of the Kat storyline and I felt the B side D'Anna story was getting in the way.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:28, 10 December 2006 (CST)

What if they Findsome healing artifact do u think they would bring her back along with others? Snorkel378
:This isn't Star Trek. When people are dead they are dead. Just like in real life. Only the Cylons cheat death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:40, 10 December 2006 (CST)

== Anti-Radiation Meds ==

Part of the summary here suggests that there were no anti-rad doses to go around for any of the pilots. I thought that at some were given to the skeleton crews of the civilian ships. Am I right on this one? [[User:Steel viper|Steel viper]] 18:38, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:RDM mentioned in the podcast that the cockpits of the civilian ships might be the most heavily shielded areas. That makes sense to save some money. So the crew could have been shielded, but not the rest of the ship --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:30, 10 December 2006 (CST)

Perhaps this section should be titled just radiation rather than anti-radiation meds. I'm not sure why the returning rapters & pilots were subject to decontamination washing. I was under the impression the cluster had intense radiation because of so many stars so close together....not because it was filled with radioactive material. A ship inside the cluster would be exposed to intense radiation but as soon as it jumped out it would be fine. I've read the neutron bombs feed metal an intense amount of neutron s and metal objects like tanks could give off residual radiation up to two weeks after exposure. But washing wouldn't solve the problem. The 'hot' ships would have to be put aside until they cooled down.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:22, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:I think that they were just trying to show that there was a decontamination process without getting into the real nitty-gritty details of it all. I would have preferred that they showed a little bit more realistic portrayal of a radiation decontamination, but at the same time I understand at this point in the season, they do cut corners where they can to recoup costs encured by the season opener. All this stuff isn't free and the research, props and everything... --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:32, 10 December 2006 (CST)

::Anti-rad medicines (at least those we have) can only block some specific tissues from certain types of radiation damage. Nothing you can ingest or inject will protect you totally; only avoidance and shielding may do that. Washing does wipe away contaminated (irradiated) materials so that the non-irradiated materials are no longer exposed, but yes, washing is a basic concept to show that something was done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:52, 11 December 2006 (CST)

== Fourth squadron leader ==

As we saw at the end of this episode, ''Galactica'' has four squadrons of pilots under the command of CAG. The squadron leaders were (before Kat's death, of course): Starbuck, Kat, Two Times and... Did anyone notice who was the fourth? -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 20:44, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Two Times was the name of the third squad leader? Could only make out the word "Times" :) You've got better eyes then I do.
::It was Ricky "Two Times" Richardson. I'm currently completely updating the List of Pilots page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 21:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:::I saw Richardson too but missed Ricky and Two Times. Does anyone have this episode yet on iTunes?--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 01:02, 10 December 2006 (CST)
::::I don't think that the camera ever pans over to where we can see the 4th leader. I got the ep on iTunes, but I have a season pass.
:::::I do too, it doesn't pan over to the first squadron, but judging by the fact that Showboat is in the fourth squadron, it has to be another Captain, maybe Stinger. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 06:47, 10 December 2006 (CST)

==Jupiter = Zeus==
I had the closed caption on and found it interesting that "Jupiter" was replaced by "Zeus". I was going to make post this as a note, but then I figured it would get shot down... because I have confidence issues. But still, this makes the debate over what the "Eye of Jupiter" is interesting (I'm leaning toward the god, not planet). Also, I got the impression from Three's line about "their gods and ours" that this is some kind of acknowledgement of Roman mythology? Or did I understand that wrong? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:59, 10 December 2006 (CST)

:It's not the first mention of Roman gods. We also have Mercury and Mars. The Eye of Jupiter is some kind of artifact they'll find down on the planet --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:03, 10 December 2006 (CST)

:: Maybe we're wrong, but my friends and I thought that the dialog implied that Jupiter was a separate entity from Zeus. Was it ever stated that the Lord of Kobol Hera was like the Greek Goddess, wife of Zeus and all that? It sounds like Hera isn't married to Zeus, but is married to another god named Jupiter.

:: Personally, I suspect that what happened is that they named the artifact (or whatever it is) the Eye of Jupiter, and then someone realized that was a Roman name, so now they've decided to make the pantheon diverge more from the Greeks. Perhaps Mercury and Mars are also Lords of Kobol. Have Ares and Hermes ever been mentioned? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)
:Ares has been mentioned in the webisodes. I think that the names can just be used interchangably and that they aren't seperate entities at all. For example they mentioned Hera and Jupiter in the same sentence, even referring to their relationship I think. That points strongly towards the names meaning the same. A couple of thousands of years have passed, so it makes some sense that the mythology has been adapted --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)

:: Nevermind. I remembered that Selloi did say that Hera was wife to Zeus. Unless Hera had two husbands, Jupiter must be an alternate name for Zeus. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 19:20, 10 December 2006 (CST)

Hera's roman equivalent is Juno, but it's clearly stated that Hera and Jupiter were spouses. At the same time, Zeus has been referred to numerous times. I think it's safe to suppose that they're just alternate names. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)

Espenson shed some light on this: http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/11/jane-espenson-on-post-the-passage-questions/ -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)

I thought immediately that the eye of jupiter was a reference to what our solar system looks like from outside of it... Jupiter is the eye in the middle of it. No? --galactageek
:My first thought was it was related to the storm in Jupiter, the Great Red Spot. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 13:55, 15 December 2006 (CST)
::Yeah, that didn't occur to me but that's an even better connection. I imagine that and to a lesser extent Saturn would be the main visual markers. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 14:46, 15 December 2006 (CST)

== Hot Dog's name ==

Great episode. Sorry to see Kat go. Anyway, I noticed that Hot Dog's name was spelled as Brendan Costanza with one "N", not as Constanza. I believe it has always been spelled as Constanza but I think it was spelled as Costanza in one previous episode. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 10:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)

== Hybrid's Quote ==

Anyone got down what the Hybrid told Gaius? Figured it'd look good in the quote section... --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 14:27, 10 December 2006 (CST)

Thanks for the quote, I put up something about it in the Analysis section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:15, 12 December 2006 (CST)

==Carol-Anne?==

Did Bill Adama refer to his wife as Carol-Anne in the sickbay scene? That would clear things up immeasurably with regard to [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]] and [[Anne Adama]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 10 December 2006 (CST)

:I thought the same thing, but he has such a gruff voice it's hard to be sure. Maybe someone will know what the subtitles said? --[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 10:36, 11 December 2006 (CST)

:I heard Carol-Anne as well, and the recent work that Jamie Bamber submitted to the scifipedia (which admittedly had some errors) did mention her name as being Carolanne. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:43, 11 December 2006 (CST)

::He, the cc, and canon have her as "Caroline". --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:34, 13 December 2006 (CST)

==Three killing herself softly==
I'm having a tough time believing that no one is noticing that D'Anna is having herself killed, even if the centurion is wiping it's logs. At the very least, she must have some accomplices helping her in the resurrection chamber.[[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:54, 10 December 2006 (CST)
:Agreed, it seems unlikely. Perhaps she's being aided by other Threes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:Centurions are always good accomplices. A Centurion could figure out where she'd download to and run there faster than a skinjob could. Three also made some drawings, and the most efficient way to do that is to have a Centurion ready with paper and pencils the second she ressurrects. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:25, 12 December 2006 (CST)

Another question is, is she resurrecting on the basestar? I thought they needed a resurrection ship to resurrect away from the home world. If she's resurrecting on the resurrection ship, and then travels back to the basestar, how can no one have noticed? It would seem like that would be time-consuming and her movements would be logged. I think maybe Caprica, and maybe a few others like Sharon, knows what D'Anna is doing, and because Caprica wants to know who the Final Five are as well, lets D'Anna continue without reporting her. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:06, 12 December 2006 (EST)
:We believe that the Resurrection Ship contains the [[Cylon rebirthing tank]]s. Seems impractical to haul a body from the Rez Ship's storage over to a basestar for resurrection. They ''do'' have another Rez' Ship with them (see the episode [[Torn]]). In this episode, the other Cylons wonder what she is doing, but either can't or won't investigate (perhaps part of their collective block of knowledge of the Final Five). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:18, 15 December 2006 (CST)
::Right, so that definitely means that she has to travel back to the basestar where Baltar and Caprica Six are hanging out every time she is resurrected. You'd also think that a Cylon's death on a basestar when there are no hostilities would be suspicious in itself. I never considered that the Cylons have a collective block on thinking about the Final Five. It may explain why no one is trying to stop D'Anna. I always thought that they just don't talk about the Final Five with each other or Baltar, but that they do have substantial free will and free thought. Witness Sharon Agathon's repudiation of the Cylons, and Caprica Six & the other Sharon killing D'Anna and thinking outside the box about the Cylon-Human conflict. Such a theory raises many problems: (1) how did D'Anna get around this block? (2) if they all do have a block, then they can't stop someone like D'Anna? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:21, 15 December 2006 (EST)
:::A Cylon dying aboard a baseship isn't that suspicious, someone could fall and die, or somehow get hurt severly enough to commit suicide. What the Cylons should be wondering is why there is a body of a dead Three with a Centurion bullet right through her head, while she has no other injuries whatsoever (i.e. no reason to commit suicide) and the Centurions' logs don't make mention of the incident. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:37, 15 December 2006 (CST)
:::Series history shows that other Cylon agents tend not to talk about other models until confronted with obvious evidence of their connection. "Boomer" Valerii, even after shooting Adama, did not claim herself as a Cylon. [[Sharon Agathon|"Caprica" Valerii]] didn't reveal [[D'Anna Biers]] or [[Cavil]] despite her increasing loyalty. This may also be a programming block. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 15 December 2006 (CST)
:::: Okay, but then how did D'Anna get around this programming block? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 13:56, 15 December 2006 (EST)
:::Spencerian a point there (such a programming block would be a very logical move, making it impossible to torture the identity of other Cylons out of known ones), but I don't think it's related. Baltar knows all 7 models revealed so far, and all Cylons know that, so there would be no reason not to talk about them, and no block to get around. Also remember that [[Caprica-Six]] is the one to tell Baltar that Three is "doing things". Your idea that the Cylons don't talk about her death trips may be true, but keep in mind that she was pretty authoritarian in ''Torn'' when ordering the basestar to jump while the other Cylons are still in discussion. The Threes seem to have some kind of authority over the other models, which could be related to her low number (Number One would be the big boss of course, so if One and Two are with the Final Five, Three would be "in command"). So if the Threes are really the surpreme model or the commanders of this particular basestar, the others might not be eager to speak foul of one of the Threes because they fear consequences. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 13:17, 15 December 2006 (CST)
::::This is possible even without a hierarchical structure, as well. Culturally the feeling might be "That's none of our business," or along the lines of giving her the benefit of the doubt that whatever she's doing is for the good of the Cylons. They don't really have the concept of traitors within their own society (Sharon Agathon excluded), so the idea of keeping close tabs on someone may be culturally taboo. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:21, 15 December 2006 (CST)
:::::Wait a second, what about Caprica Six and Boomer Sharon killing a Three? --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 14:34, 15 December 2006 (EST)
::::::True. Though they DID believe at the time they were doing it for the greater good of the Cylons. It wasn't an act of treason against the Cylons (like Sharon Agathon's taking of the colonial oath and theft of the launch keys) so much as a regrettable action taken in order to serve the greater good. Which, as it turns out Three would be begging to be killed (repeatedly) a little over a year later, which has to take at least a little of the sting out of that particular little "betrayal". --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:46, 15 December 2006 (CST)

== Slip? ==
I removed the following from the Analysis:
* One of D'Anna's sketches in particular appears to depict the profile of a mustached and bearded male with long hair—a possible reference to Baltar; later in the episode after Baltar communes with the hybrid, D'Anna says "Could there be a connection between their gods and ours?" where "their" refers to the polytheistic human pantheon and "ours," the Cylon single god, a possible slip on her part indicating that she believes Baltar to be a Cylon, or that D'Anna believes Baltar has accepted the Cylon religion, and so no longer counts him as following human beliefs.

Feel free to put it back if you can figure out how to get it into a single bullet point. Part of the reason I pulled it was I interpreted the "ours" to refer to the Cylon (collectively) god and their to be the Colonials... regardless of who was standing there. It's more of an us vs them thing, in general, but I don't think she slipped or is implying anything from that necessarily, other than maybe an increased closeness that he MAY be considered as being on the side of "us". But mostly, let's just keep these things free of nested comments. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:13, 11 December 2006 (CST)

That's actually why I described it as a "possible slip," though I think it's considerably less likely tha Baltar would have accepted the Cylon religion with no evidential plot nods or development in that direction. We do, on the other hand, have Baltar asking D'Anna if he's one of the final five in this episode, making it an issue "at-hand" and her pronoun usage potentially premonitory (it's either that, or a fantastic red herring). I think it's thus at least a remotely tenable possibility worth sharing in the Wiki's analysis as educated speculation. --[[User:Mattpeckham|Mattpeckham]] 10:27, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:I don't really disagree. I was just hoping somebody could come up with a way to work in that nested bullet. In fact... I think I have an idea. I'll edit above, and see what you all think. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:39, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:: It's good. I've re-introduced it into the analysis portion of this guide page. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:16, 12 December 2006 (CST)

== Boxey? ==

Near the end of the episode, when Kara goes to put Kat's picture on the wall, did anyone else notice the "MISSING" poster? I swear Boxey was in the picture on it. A sly in-joke?--[[User:Kross|Kross]] 09:54, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:I'll check when I get home. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 10:02, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:Looks like a woman in a baseball cap to me. --[[User:Kidsafe|Kidsafe]] 13:22, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:Same here. Personally, I think the Hybrid's lines just before Baltar sticks his hand in her tank are a far better in-joke. "''Throughout history the nexus between man and machine has spawned some of the most dramatic, compelling and entertaining fiction''." aka "WHERE'S MY GODDAMN EMMY?!" --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 23:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)

== Arguing with thyself ==

The "Carol-Anne" vs. "Caroline" subject should probably be hashed out here (and probably brought to [[BW:OC]]) before we re-introduce it to this page. Here's what was removed:

*William Adama refers to his ex-wife as Carol-Anne. [[Zak Adama]]'s mother was named as "Caroline" in "[[Act of Contrition]]", but in a flashback in "[[Scattered]]", Adama refers to his wife as "Anne", whom Tigh calls Adama's "new wife". This new information suggests that both "Caroline" and "Anne" are variants of a single person's name.
**In summary, Adama had two wives. His first wife was Caroline who was the mother of both Lee and Zak. However, because of his dedication to the service, his marriage was strained and eventually led to divorce. Afterwards, while he was in the merchant fleet, he met his second wife Anne and married her. It was this marriage that eventually led him back to the military.

Thanks! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:14, 12 December 2006 (CST)

:The first bullet point was mine, and I will defend it as-is. The second represents my older opinion, and is by no means a re-wording of the above point. If it is to stay I think it needs to present new argumentation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:43, 15 December 2006 (CST)

== How does the Hybrid know where earth is? ==

That's pretty much my question. Is the Hybrid connected to God? Or, is the location actually somewhere in the Cylon databases that only she can access (which would make a connection with the final five, if they know where earth is already)?-- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 11:03, 14 December 2006 (EST)
:We don't have these answers yet. We do know that the other Cylons know the Hybrid has remarkable insight on the nature of the universe as she is, in effect, the basestar itself. However, they treat her more of an "it" than a "her" and consider her babbling insane, except perhaps for [[Leoben Conoy]]. Obviously, the one Hybrid touched by Baltar discovered ''something'' in its travails, either by way of information from the dying basestar and its Hybrid that discovered the Lion's Head nebula and the human probe left there by the 13th tribe. The Eye of Jupiter data is possibly gleaned from that. The problem with being a Hybrid (a computer) is that, for the most part, you can't just speak on your own; somebody has to ask you for your input, which Baltar did by touching the Hybrid. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:15, 15 December 2006 (CST)
::Right. But why did she react the way she did to Baltar? Either (1) Baltar is a human, and his human-ness triggered Earth-related knowledge in the Hybrid, (2) Baltar is one of the Final Five. According to at least one theory on the Final Five, they know where Earth is, and are somehow connected to it, so his Final-Fiveness triggered Earth-related information in the Hybrid. Another question: does the ''Hybrid'' know who the Final Five are and what they are, exactly? Can D'Anna ask the Hybrid? Is the Hybrid one of the Final Five (since she doesn't look like any of the 7 models we've seen)? Is she a Cylon at all, or a purely organic being? Is she a human? -- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 12:30, 15 December 2006 (EST)
:The Hybrid may be a sort of an oracle. We've seen an oracle on New Caprica in Exodus Part II, and she was right in stating that Hera lived. There are also striking similarities between the two scenes: both concern prophecies, both concern Number Three and Hera, and both imply some kind of connection between the Colonial pantheon and the Cylon god (at the very least the oracle scene in Exodus seems to confirm the existence of the Cylon god). This leads me to thing that the Hybrid knows all this because it has the gift op prophecy ("She experiences life very different from us, Gaius. She swims in the heavens." - Number Six, Torn). And as to the nature of the Hybrid: there is a shot of the Hybrid in Torn that seems to show the Hybrid having an 'open' back, i.e. you see a lot of flesh where its back should be, and there are a lot of plugs exiting it there. That's probably why they call it a Hybrid, since it's some kind of combination between an organic being and a machine (even more than the Raiders). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:37, 15 December 2006 (CST)
:::As stated in the [[Hybrid]] article, it is a Cylon, but not a [[Cylon agent]] and certainly (since it appears in all basestars) not a Five member. We can guess all we want, but it's too speculative until we get more gems tonight in the mid-season cliffhanger. While it is possible that the Hybrid can have prescience like an oracle, the Cylons are too dumb to ask it, despite their encyclopedic knowledge of the [[Sacred Scrolls]] (which pretty much patterns out what the Colonials are probably doing).--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 15 December 2006 (CST)
::::I don't think the Cylons are too dumb to ask it. It has nothing to do with "dumb." For one, maybe they have asked it, but they can't decipher her cryptic responses. Secondly, if Baltar is a Final-Five Cylon, he's just shown that he's not too dumb to ask it. Maybe it's a plot thing: if a Cylon asks it, and it just says "oh it's at these coordinates," the show is over. -- [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 13:54, 15 December 2006 (EST)

Talk:The Passage/Archive 1

2006-12-15T09:16:41Z

Galactageek: /* Jupiter = Zeus */

== I cried ==
When I watched the episode tonight, I cried at the end. It was a really sad ending. If an episode makes me cry, that means ''it'' was '''really''' good. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:31, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:I was just left in shock. What a way to die...and to do it knowingly while saving a civilian ship... [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:46, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:You weren't the only one, Shane. You weren't the only one. Note to Self: When an episode summary says "we'll learn more about a character in this episode," prepare for mourning. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::I love Kat, I also shed a tear. :'( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:14, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:::I saluted her picture as Starbuck hung it up, with tears in my eyes. This is one of the few episodes I've watched this season while not having a few beers in me, and I'm glad I did so. I'd have probably been Weepy McEmo all night otherwise. You can bet that, next Friday, I'll be pouring one out for Kat. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:28, 11 December 2006 (CST)

== Tether? ==

Why didn't Galactica just tether the Raptors to their ships? Or use the magnetic clamps that Raptors have to literally attach to the ships? They wouldn't lose any ships, it would save time, and be safer all at the same time. - [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 09:21, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Jumping is precise, but not that precise. We don't know if a Jump between tethered ships, if they didn't occur simultaneously, would be a fatal move, or do nothing. In any case, the intense heat and buffeting in the cloud would likely make a tether snap or melt and be worthless. Magnetic clamping might have been possible given that Vipers that perform combat landings hold themselves fast within Galactica. However, performing a Jump while ''outside'' of another ship (which is also Jumping) is probably a Bad Idea. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:06, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Likely for the same reason Galactica has to close flight pods: Each ship's ftl drive is only capable of allowing it to jump, dragging a raptor along likely is no more possible the for galactica to jump with deployed flight pods. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)

I'm sorry but this part of the story still doesn't make sense to me. Why did the raptors have to be outside of the ships to give them jump coordinates? If radiation would fry the civilian ship computers why not simply park a raptor in their landing bays and let their computers do the work.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:15, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Likely because the Raptor's sensors cant operate from inside a metal, radiation shielded landing bay... They werent designed for that type of use. Also, it may be very likely that many ships lack a landing bay, instead relying on airlocks to connect to other ships. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)

:It still doesn't make sense to me. Why not weld the raptor directly to the out hull of the civilian ships? If the rapter's computers are so well shielded why not just wrap the computers of the civilian ships in protective armour. Clearly the jump computers are small enough to be contained in a small rapter so the amount of material necessary to harden them couldn't be all that much

::Simple answer: it wouldn't have been very dramatic from a storytelling point of view, would it? The fact that the civilian ships relied on the Raptors and their pilots- who, clearly, are fallible- increases the tension exponentially. It hits our characters that bit harder when ships are lost, because they feel it is their fault. By giving the civilian ships the same capabilities of the Raptors, you take away the whole point of having the episode :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 12:18, 10 December 2006 (CST)

:: Dramatic presentations aside, many civilian ships could have carried a Raptor in their cargo hull until after the first jump. Then they could launch their Raptor and make the second jump. Colonial One, a ship actually small enough to land in Galactica's landing bay, is shown with a Raptor in it's hull during the mini-series. Colonial One also rescued Apollo's Viper when he had an emergency. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)

::: It seems to me to be a poor idea to open your landing bay in the middle of that radiation storm, whatever it was. That could be a good excuse for not doing that one. --[[User:Larrik|Larrik]] 22:38, 12 December 2006 (CST)

::Welding the raptors would have taken more time than the fleet could have really afforded. Plus, though it seems like a good idea, the intense heat inside that star cluster seems to indicate that if they were to try that, the raptor and the ship would become inseparable because of the melding of the metal. Every raptor that came back was charred and smoking, not sure if they would have been able to pull each attached raptor off the ships. --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 10:28, 12 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Kat Die?==
I know this is a stupid question but why did starbuck a picture of her in the memorial hall? Snorkel378
:Yes, she died because she received a twice-fatal dose of radiation --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:10, 9 December 2006 (CST)

Then WHy did Adama Still MAke Her CAG? WHo would make someone who is dead Be A CAG. And We never saw her die. snorkel378
:It's glaringly obvious that she died. We didn't need to see her last breath to know it. She received two fatal doses. She was dying in sickbay. Kara gave her pills if she wanted to comitt suicide, because dying from radiation poisoning is extremly ugly.
:The promotion is a honorary and morale thing. It was merely posthumous, but Apollo is still the acting CAG. Adama thought that Kat's leadership and bravery are a good example for the crew --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:19, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Kat does die; there is no way for her to survive extreme radiation poisoning. However, the show's writers do not show this to enhance the drama of the moment. (Oh, Snorkel, to make an automatic signature, place four tilde characters (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) at the end of your entry.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::I'd say it's better that we didn't see her actual death. Death scenes ''can'' a clicé if not done right. Just showing its impact on the other character was far better and more effective IMO --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:27, 9 December 2006 (CST)

U guys know that this is a thery, we would have to ask the writer. Come on what if she is still insickbay some later episode in rehab? then waht would you guys say. OO and KAra gave Kat Skin rebuilds she even said that in the scene. So u might be alive but we should not be so quick to say she died because there is no ground proof. Snorkel378 P.S. i dont give a damn about an automatic signature
:She gave her an overdose of sleeping pills. And I haven't listened to the podcast yet, but it probably "confirms" her death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)

::Yep, the podcast confirms that Kat died. Just got done listening. And Snorkel, there's no need to get ratty, we just try to help :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:41, 9 December 2006 (CST)

:While the podcast does make it explicit, the story as aired makes it clear.
:* We're told that flying after the tag turns black is lethal. Kat's turns black twice
:* Kara gives her "sleeping pills ... enough"
:* When Adama tells Kat he's promoting her, she asks him herself if he knows that she's not making it out of sick bay. He does.
:* Kat isn't present when her promotion is announced. This would only happen if not only she wasn't available at the time but she never would be. If she will recover, you wait until she can be present.
:* Finally, Starbuck posts her picture on the memory wall.
:So, the answer to the question "Why did Starbuck put her picture on the wall?" is "so the audience would know that she died".
:What makes the show so appealing to me is the quality of the writing. They take the time to tell the story through the character interaction, the emotional moments. They could have had her die on screen when she collapsed and made it explicit. But instead, they write it more powerfully. --[[User:Brons|Brons]] 11:45, 9 December 2006 (CST)

::Excellent points, Brons. Another example of writing that sets BSG above other shows. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:49, 9 December 2006 (CST)

She was A good Character, Snorkel378

:Agreed. She was one of my favourite characters :( --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::Poor Kat :( *wipes away tears* --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)

No doubt, Kat's dead. All the reasons above. The wall is a memorial for those who are dead, not those who are sick. And it was even in the news a former Russian spy just got wacked (assasinated by Russia) a couple weeks ago with just a small dose of radiation. Most people don't realize how dangerous radiation is because we don't deal with it on a day-to-day basis, but just a little bit can kill you. I feel that all those pilots were getting more than a small dose, other than just Kat. There could be reprocutions for all of them in the future as their health deteriorates over time.

Kat dying in this way, they could have nixed the B side story to flesh out her story. Kat was a very compelling character and her going out, well, the whole D'Anna dying over-and-over thing and the Baltar 3-way is getting boring and tedious so they could have spent more time with the Kat story. Even thus, They still did a good job of making a dramatic finish even if the story could have used a few more details.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 13:01, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:The Baltar and Three storyline is neither boring nor tedious and had only four short scenes in this episode. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::That's all opinion. Everybody's entitled to their own. But I wanted to see more of the Kat storyline and I felt the B side D'Anna story was getting in the way.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:28, 10 December 2006 (CST)

What if they Findsome healing artifact do u think they would bring her back along with others? Snorkel378
:This isn't Star Trek. When people are dead they are dead. Just like in real life. Only the Cylons cheat death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:40, 10 December 2006 (CST)

== Anti-Radiation Meds ==

Part of the summary here suggests that there were no anti-rad doses to go around for any of the pilots. I thought that at some were given to the skeleton crews of the civilian ships. Am I right on this one? [[User:Steel viper|Steel viper]] 18:38, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:RDM mentioned in the podcast that the cockpits of the civilian ships might be the most heavily shielded areas. That makes sense to save some money. So the crew could have been shielded, but not the rest of the ship --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:30, 10 December 2006 (CST)

Perhaps this section should be titled just radiation rather than anti-radiation meds. I'm not sure why the returning rapters & pilots were subject to decontamination washing. I was under the impression the cluster had intense radiation because of so many stars so close together....not because it was filled with radioactive material. A ship inside the cluster would be exposed to intense radiation but as soon as it jumped out it would be fine. I've read the neutron bombs feed metal an intense amount of neutron s and metal objects like tanks could give off residual radiation up to two weeks after exposure. But washing wouldn't solve the problem. The 'hot' ships would have to be put aside until they cooled down.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:22, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:I think that they were just trying to show that there was a decontamination process without getting into the real nitty-gritty details of it all. I would have preferred that they showed a little bit more realistic portrayal of a radiation decontamination, but at the same time I understand at this point in the season, they do cut corners where they can to recoup costs encured by the season opener. All this stuff isn't free and the research, props and everything... --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:32, 10 December 2006 (CST)

::Anti-rad medicines (at least those we have) can only block some specific tissues from certain types of radiation damage. Nothing you can ingest or inject will protect you totally; only avoidance and shielding may do that. Washing does wipe away contaminated (irradiated) materials so that the non-irradiated materials are no longer exposed, but yes, washing is a basic concept to show that something was done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:52, 11 December 2006 (CST)

== Fourth squadron leader ==

As we saw at the end of this episode, ''Galactica'' has four squadrons of pilots under the command of CAG. The squadron leaders were (before Kat's death, of course): Starbuck, Kat, Two Times and... Did anyone notice who was the fourth? -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 20:44, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Two Times was the name of the third squad leader? Could only make out the word "Times" :) You've got better eyes then I do.
::It was Ricky "Two Times" Richardson. I'm currently completely updating the List of Pilots page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 21:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:::I saw Richardson too but missed Ricky and Two Times. Does anyone have this episode yet on iTunes?--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 01:02, 10 December 2006 (CST)
::::I don't think that the camera ever pans over to where we can see the 4th leader. I got the ep on iTunes, but I have a season pass.
:::::I do too, it doesn't pan over to the first squadron, but judging by the fact that Showboat is in the fourth squadron, it has to be another Captain, maybe Stinger. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 06:47, 10 December 2006 (CST)

==Jupiter = Zeus==
I had the closed caption on and found it interesting that "Jupiter" was replaced by "Zeus". I was going to make post this as a note, but then I figured it would get shot down... because I have confidence issues. But still, this makes the debate over what the "Eye of Jupiter" is interesting (I'm leaning toward the god, not planet). Also, I got the impression from Three's line about "their gods and ours" that this is some kind of acknowledgement of Roman mythology? Or did I understand that wrong? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:59, 10 December 2006 (CST)

:It's not the first mention of Roman gods. We also have Mercury and Mars. The Eye of Jupiter is some kind of artifact they'll find down on the planet --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:03, 10 December 2006 (CST)

:: Maybe we're wrong, but my friends and I thought that the dialog implied that Jupiter was a separate entity from Zeus. Was it ever stated that the Lord of Kobol Hera was like the Greek Goddess, wife of Zeus and all that? It sounds like Hera isn't married to Zeus, but is married to another god named Jupiter.

:: Personally, I suspect that what happened is that they named the artifact (or whatever it is) the Eye of Jupiter, and then someone realized that was a Roman name, so now they've decided to make the pantheon diverge more from the Greeks. Perhaps Mercury and Mars are also Lords of Kobol. Have Ares and Hermes ever been mentioned? [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)
:Ares has been mentioned in the webisodes. I think that the names can just be used interchangably and that they aren't seperate entities at all. For example they mentioned Hera and Jupiter in the same sentence, even referring to their relationship I think. That points strongly towards the names meaning the same. A couple of thousands of years have passed, so it makes some sense that the mythology has been adapted --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:38, 10 December 2006 (CST)

:: Nevermind. I remembered that Selloi did say that Hera was wife to Zeus. Unless Hera had two husbands, Jupiter must be an alternate name for Zeus. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 19:20, 10 December 2006 (CST)

Hera's roman equivalent is Juno, but it's clearly stated that Hera and Jupiter were spouses. At the same time, Zeus has been referred to numerous times. I think it's safe to suppose that they're just alternate names. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)

Espenson shed some light on this: http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/11/jane-espenson-on-post-the-passage-questions/ -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:33, 11 December 2006 (CST)

I thought immediately that the eye of jupiter was a reference to what our solar system looks like from outside of it... Jupiter is the eye in the middle of it. No? --galactageek

== Hot Dog's name ==

Great episode. Sorry to see Kat go. Anyway, I noticed that Hot Dog's name was spelled as Brendan Costanza with one "N", not as Constanza. I believe it has always been spelled as Constanza but I think it was spelled as Costanza in one previous episode. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 10:13, 10 December 2006 (CST)

== Hybrid's Quote ==

Anyone got down what the Hybrid told Gaius? Figured it'd look good in the quote section... --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 14:27, 10 December 2006 (CST)

Thanks for the quote, I put up something about it in the Analysis section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:15, 12 December 2006 (CST)

==Carol-Anne?==

Did Bill Adama refer to his wife as Carol-Anne in the sickbay scene? That would clear things up immeasurably with regard to [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]] and [[Anne Adama]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 10 December 2006 (CST)

:I thought the same thing, but he has such a gruff voice it's hard to be sure. Maybe someone will know what the subtitles said? --[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 10:36, 11 December 2006 (CST)

:I heard Carol-Anne as well, and the recent work that Jamie Bamber submitted to the scifipedia (which admittedly had some errors) did mention her name as being Carolanne. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:43, 11 December 2006 (CST)

::He, the cc, and canon have her as "Caroline". --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:34, 13 December 2006 (CST)

==Three killing herself softly==
I'm having a tough time believing that no one is noticing that D'Anna is having herself killed, even if the centurion is wiping it's logs. At the very least, she must have some accomplices helping her in the resurrection chamber.[[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 18:54, 10 December 2006 (CST)
:Agreed, it seems unlikely. Perhaps she's being aided by other Threes? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:Centurions are always good accomplices. A Centurion could figure out where she'd download to and run there faster than a skinjob could. Three also made some drawings, and the most efficient way to do that is to have a Centurion ready with paper and pencils the second she ressurrects. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:25, 12 December 2006 (CST)

== Slip? ==
I removed the following from the Analysis:
* One of D'Anna's sketches in particular appears to depict the profile of a mustached and bearded male with long hair—a possible reference to Baltar; later in the episode after Baltar communes with the hybrid, D'Anna says "Could there be a connection between their gods and ours?" where "their" refers to the polytheistic human pantheon and "ours," the Cylon single god, a possible slip on her part indicating that she believes Baltar to be a Cylon, or that D'Anna believes Baltar has accepted the Cylon religion, and so no longer counts him as following human beliefs.

Feel free to put it back if you can figure out how to get it into a single bullet point. Part of the reason I pulled it was I interpreted the "ours" to refer to the Cylon (collectively) god and their to be the Colonials... regardless of who was standing there. It's more of an us vs them thing, in general, but I don't think she slipped or is implying anything from that necessarily, other than maybe an increased closeness that he MAY be considered as being on the side of "us". But mostly, let's just keep these things free of nested comments. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:13, 11 December 2006 (CST)

That's actually why I described it as a "possible slip," though I think it's considerably less likely tha Baltar would have accepted the Cylon religion with no evidential plot nods or development in that direction. We do, on the other hand, have Baltar asking D'Anna if he's one of the final five in this episode, making it an issue "at-hand" and her pronoun usage potentially premonitory (it's either that, or a fantastic red herring). I think it's thus at least a remotely tenable possibility worth sharing in the Wiki's analysis as educated speculation. --[[User:Mattpeckham|Mattpeckham]] 10:27, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:I don't really disagree. I was just hoping somebody could come up with a way to work in that nested bullet. In fact... I think I have an idea. I'll edit above, and see what you all think. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:39, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:: It's good. I've re-introduced it into the analysis portion of this guide page. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:16, 12 December 2006 (CST)

== Boxey? ==

Near the end of the episode, when Kara goes to put Kat's picture on the wall, did anyone else notice the "MISSING" poster? I swear Boxey was in the picture on it. A sly in-joke?--[[User:Kross|Kross]] 09:54, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:I'll check when I get home. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 10:02, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:Looks like a woman in a baseball cap to me. --[[User:Kidsafe|Kidsafe]] 13:22, 11 December 2006 (CST)
:Same here. Personally, I think the Hybrid's lines just before Baltar sticks his hand in her tank are a far better in-joke. "''Throughout history the nexus between man and machine has spawned some of the most dramatic, compelling and entertaining fiction''." aka "WHERE'S MY GODDAMN EMMY?!" --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 23:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)

== Arguing with thyself ==

The "Carol-Anne" vs. "Caroline" subject should probably be hashed out here (and probably brought to [[BW:OC]]) before we re-introduce it to this page. Here's what was removed:

*William Adama refers to his ex-wife as Carol-Anne. [[Zak Adama]]'s mother was named as "Caroline" in "[[Act of Contrition]]", but in a flashback in "[[Scattered]]", Adama refers to his wife as "Anne", whom Tigh calls Adama's "new wife". This new information suggests that both "Caroline" and "Anne" are variants of a single person's name.
**In summary, Adama had two wives. His first wife was Caroline who was the mother of both Lee and Zak. However, because of his dedication to the service, his marriage was strained and eventually led to divorce. Afterwards, while he was in the merchant fleet, he met his second wife Anne and married her. It was this marriage that eventually led him back to the military.

Thanks! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:14, 12 December 2006 (CST)

Unfinished Business

2006-12-02T10:03:23Z

Galactageek: /* Questions */

{{spoiler}}

{{Episode Data
| title= Unfinished Business
| image= Season 3 - Promo - Unfinished Business - Lee and Helo.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 9
| guests=
| writer= [[Michael Taylor]]
| story=
| director= [[Robert Young]]
| production=
| rating=
| US airdate= 2006-12-01
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population= 41,422
| prev= [[Hero]]
| next= [[The Passage]]
}}

== Overview ==
:''Admiral Adama re-institues a military tradition onboard Colonial warships, in which crewmembers disregard rank and fight each other in a boxing ring to relieve tensions aboard ship. Tensions which have existed since ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' discovered [[New Caprica]].''

== Summary ==

== Questions ==

* What has transpired on the baseship [[Gaius Baltar]] is currently residing upon?
* What will occur now that Kara Thrace and Lee Adama have begun to mend fences?
* What will be the fallout, if any, in Thrace's and Adama's current marriages?
* Now that Adama admits to letting the crew get too close to him, will he be harder and stricter on his crew?
* What were Adama and Roslin smoking?
* Why DID everyone think New Caprica was safe from Cylons? Just because it was near a nebula? Didn't Adama know a cylon detonated the nuclear bomb that blew up Cloud Nine? Why weren't any of these characters sitting around going "you know it's just a matter of time till they find us"?

== Analysis ==

== Notes ==
*According to [[Grace Park]] in an [http://tv.ign.com/articles/705/705789p1.html interview] with IGN.com, "Unfinished Business" is an episode that is mostly composed of flashbacks to events that happened during the one year ahead jump foward that happened at the end of season 2. Ron Moore also said in the podcast for "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]" that there would be flashbacks revealing some of these events: they might be interspersed in several other episodes as well, but Park confirmed that this particular episode dealt almost entirely with various flashbacks to things that happened during the year that was skipped over.
*At a [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1833539&page=0&fpart=86&vc=1 convention appearance], [[Jamie Bamber]] said that we would find out in flashbacks in this episode what happened between Apollo and Starbuck during the skipped year that caused a rift between them. He discussed the boxing scene in which Apollo and Starbuck beat the hell out of each other in the final act.
== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

== Official Statements ==

== Guest Stars ==

* [[Aaron Douglas]] as Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]
* [[Nicki Clyne]] as [[Cally Tyrol]]
* [[Alessandro Juliani]] as [[Felix Gaeta]]
* [[Donnelly Rhodes]] as Doctor [[Cottle]]
* [[Kate Vernon]] as [[Ellen Tigh]]
* [[Bodie Olmos]] as Lt. [[Brendan Constanza|Brendan "Hotdog" Constanza]]
* [[Christian Tessier]] as [[Tucker Clellan|Tucker "Duck" Clellan]]
* [[Jen Halley]] as [[Seelix]]
* [[Don Thompson]] as [[Anthony Figurski]]

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:Episodes written by Michael Taylor]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Robert Young]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Unfinished Business

2006-12-02T09:41:43Z

Galactageek: /* Questions */

{{spoiler}}

{{Episode Data
| title= Unfinished Business
| image= Season 3 - Promo - Unfinished Business - Lee and Helo.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 9
| guests=
| writer= [[Michael Taylor]]
| story=
| director= [[Robert Young]]
| production=
| rating=
| US airdate= 2006-12-01
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population= 41,422
| prev= [[Hero]]
| next= [[The Passage]]
}}

== Overview ==
:''Admiral Adama re-institues a military tradition onboard Colonial warships, in which crewmembers disregard rank and fight each other in a boxing ring to relieve tensions aboard ship. Tensions which have existed since ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' discovered [[New Caprica]].''

== Summary ==

== Questions ==

* What has transpired on the baseship [[Gaius Baltar]] is currently residing upon?
* What will occur now that Kara Thrace and Lee Adama have begun to mend fences?
* What will be the fallout, if any, in Thrace's and Adama's current marriages?
* Now that Adama admits to letting the crew get too close to him, will he be harder and stricter on his crew?
* What were Adama and Roslin smoking?

== Analysis ==

== Notes ==
*According to [[Grace Park]] in an [http://tv.ign.com/articles/705/705789p1.html interview] with IGN.com, "Unfinished Business" is an episode that is mostly composed of flashbacks to events that happened during the one year ahead jump foward that happened at the end of season 2. Ron Moore also said in the podcast for "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]" that there would be flashbacks revealing some of these events: they might be interspersed in several other episodes as well, but Park confirmed that this particular episode dealt almost entirely with various flashbacks to things that happened during the year that was skipped over.
*At a [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1833539&page=0&fpart=86&vc=1 convention appearance], [[Jamie Bamber]] said that we would find out in flashbacks in this episode what happened between Apollo and Starbuck during the skipped year that caused a rift between them. He discussed the boxing scene in which Apollo and Starbuck beat the hell out of each other in the final act.
== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

== Official Statements ==

== Guest Stars ==

* [[Aaron Douglas]] as Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]
* [[Nicki Clyne]] as [[Cally Tyrol]]
* [[Alessandro Juliani]] as [[Felix Gaeta]]
* [[Donnelly Rhodes]] as Doctor [[Cottle]]
* [[Kate Vernon]] as [[Ellen Tigh]]
* [[Bodie Olmos]] as Lt. [[Brendan Constanza|Brendan "Hotdog" Constanza]]
* [[Christian Tessier]] as [[Tucker Clellan|Tucker "Duck" Clellan]]
* [[Jen Halley]] as [[Seelix]]
* [[Don Thompson]] as [[Anthony Figurski]]

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:Episodes written by Michael Taylor]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Robert Young]]
[[Category:RDM]]