Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-10-30T03:38:10Z

GIR: /* Kacey's Mother */

:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]

==Major Concision==
I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the [[Tory Foster]] suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.

As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.

I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain.

Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

==Interesting Info==
Read the [http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/30381 interview] below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" | We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character
|}

My take on the interview. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

:That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them.
:Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. '''I think''' that they've been boxed." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
:: That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
::: Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.
:Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I ''did'' meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
:Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's Mother ==
Can we start a discussion concerning [[Kacey]]'s "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when [[Starbuck]] and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP. -- [[User:GIR|GIR]] 21:38, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Jammer as Cylon speculation ==
I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page. There is little evidence that he is an Cylon. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon. Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all. Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator. He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon. He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials. In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon? What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically. He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him. Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP. Jammer was a dupe. That doesn't make him a cylon. The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon." And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things. The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
::Here's a concisement of my points:
Points against him

1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened? It's a valid question.

Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer). He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified. Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical. Have any of you been to high school? I did. I knew dozens of kids like that. And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion. She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation. This is not evidence.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.

4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death? And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive. He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple. He's right, not wrong. Not a Cylon. We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed. Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice? Not evidence.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

That's all the points made on the article page. The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident. And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon. If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.

Points for him

1 - His motivations are pretty clear. He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out.

2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP. You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.

3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute. How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon? Don't they just download?

4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.

5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.

6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor. I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)

So that's
1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
6 points that he's not a Cylon
I say he should be down to Low Probability.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

:You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:

:''It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon''
::As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.

:''Not Points against him''

:''1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.''

::No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on.

:''2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.''

::Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.

:''3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.''

::I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.

:''4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.''

::Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.

:''5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.''

::I agree, not a good argument.

:''6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.''

::Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.

:''7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.''

::This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.

:''8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.''

::Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.

:The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against.

:It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.
:--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this. I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section. There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon. So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be so strong.

To the points:

1. 'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?

2. 'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon. He's paranoid. He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one. Why not Tyrol? And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was: She should be mad at Boomer. Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander. He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.

4. 'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it. And he made valid points. Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before? No. As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task. Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do. I'd be pessimistic. His feeling were extremely valid. But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?

6. "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege? Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans? I agree with his statement. It is sacrilege. I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time. Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it. The kid is torn. And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort. His reactions are very understandable.

8. "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number. I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen. At least 50 is a good assessment. We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP. The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors. Jammer just happened to be among the survivors. I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck. It looked like somebody else. Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.

You know who Jammer is? He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details. He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better. He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show. In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.

Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated. Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot. Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should. D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet. In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer... The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.

You are right about what the writers may decide to do. Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline. Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon. So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.

:I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

::No, I don't agree. I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind. I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences. Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone". What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission. It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish. He was going to die! Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns? That was the point of that pass by. I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck. I don't know how you think that he's too obvious. He seems so typical of a kid his age. Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon). All these agents were planted in places of significance. Jammer... is a deckhand. All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places. And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery. The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect. In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility. The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon. This is in the least bit evidence. In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon. Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

== Anders Speculation ==

While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.{{Unsigned|Mitchy}}

== "Cylon on Cylon violence" ==

At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of ''Downloaded'' was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.

At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. [[User:Damburger|Damburger]] 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person ''knew'' they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

::It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Her ''human personality'' does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

== Character Elimination. ==

I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.

At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.

:I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-10-30T03:37:22Z

GIR: /* Kacey's Mother */

:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]

==Major Concision==
I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the [[Tory Foster]] suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.

As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.

I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain.

Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

==Interesting Info==
Read the [http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/30381 interview] below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" | We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character
|}

My take on the interview. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

:That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them.
:Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. '''I think''' that they've been boxed." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
:: That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
::: Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.
:Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I ''did'' meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
:Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's Mother ==
Can we start a discussion concerning [[Kacey]]'s "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when [[Starbuck]] and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP.

== Jammer as Cylon speculation ==
I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page. There is little evidence that he is an Cylon. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon. Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all. Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator. He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon. He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials. In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon? What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically. He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him. Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP. Jammer was a dupe. That doesn't make him a cylon. The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon." And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things. The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
::Here's a concisement of my points:
Points against him

1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened? It's a valid question.

Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer). He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified. Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical. Have any of you been to high school? I did. I knew dozens of kids like that. And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion. She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation. This is not evidence.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.

4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death? And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive. He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple. He's right, not wrong. Not a Cylon. We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed. Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice? Not evidence.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

That's all the points made on the article page. The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident. And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon. If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.

Points for him

1 - His motivations are pretty clear. He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out.

2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP. You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.

3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute. How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon? Don't they just download?

4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.

5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.

6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor. I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)

So that's
1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
6 points that he's not a Cylon
I say he should be down to Low Probability.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

:You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:

:''It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon''
::As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.

:''Not Points against him''

:''1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.''

::No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on.

:''2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.''

::Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.

:''3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.''

::I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.

:''4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.''

::Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.

:''5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.''

::I agree, not a good argument.

:''6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.''

::Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.

:''7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.''

::This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.

:''8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.''

::Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.

:The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against.

:It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.
:--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this. I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section. There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon. So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be so strong.

To the points:

1. 'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?

2. 'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon. He's paranoid. He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one. Why not Tyrol? And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was: She should be mad at Boomer. Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander. He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.

4. 'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it. And he made valid points. Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before? No. As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task. Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do. I'd be pessimistic. His feeling were extremely valid. But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?

6. "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege? Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans? I agree with his statement. It is sacrilege. I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time. Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it. The kid is torn. And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort. His reactions are very understandable.

8. "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number. I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen. At least 50 is a good assessment. We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP. The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors. Jammer just happened to be among the survivors. I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck. It looked like somebody else. Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.

You know who Jammer is? He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details. He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better. He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show. In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.

Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated. Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot. Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should. D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet. In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer... The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.

You are right about what the writers may decide to do. Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline. Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon. So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.

:I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

::No, I don't agree. I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind. I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences. Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone". What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission. It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish. He was going to die! Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns? That was the point of that pass by. I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck. I don't know how you think that he's too obvious. He seems so typical of a kid his age. Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon). All these agents were planted in places of significance. Jammer... is a deckhand. All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places. And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery. The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect. In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility. The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon. This is in the least bit evidence. In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon. Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

== Anders Speculation ==

While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.{{Unsigned|Mitchy}}

== "Cylon on Cylon violence" ==

At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of ''Downloaded'' was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.

At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. [[User:Damburger|Damburger]] 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person ''knew'' they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

::It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Her ''human personality'' does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

== Character Elimination. ==

I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.

At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.

:I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Kacey Brynn/Archive 1

2006-10-30T03:33:41Z

GIR:

==Starting a page==
Perhaps I'm being rash in creating this page before we have more conclusive data, but I have to assume that this character will be rather important. Obviously the page needs to be fleshed out, but there's not much to go off of, and I tried to avoid veering into speculation.

If anyone has a picture, that'd be great. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 20:31, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

:You did just fine, Alpha. I'm sure we'll get a photo here in the next few days. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:43, 8 October 2006 (CDT)

::I've got one, but I'm not sure where to upload it. I'm painfully new at doing anything more than typo correction. --[[User:PrePressChris|PrePressChris]] 20:13, 16 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Down the left side of the page under the toolbox section, there is a link called "Upload File." Clicking this'll take you too the media wiki where you will have to register again just like you did here. Find the upload file on the left side of the wiki screen there and follow the instructions. To post the pic use [([Image Name|thumb|Image Desc])], just without the (), only the [[]]. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:40, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's "Mother" ==
Can we start a discussion concerning Kacey's "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when Starbuck and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP. -- [[User:GIR|GIR]] 21:33, 29 October 2006 (CST)

==The actor's name==
The end credits for Exodus, Part 1 list her as Madeline Parker, with the letter "e" occuring twice, not three times.
--[[User:123home123|123home123]] 20:56, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

==Destroyed?==
Re: "Thrace's ovary was recovered from the remains of the farm that was destroyed by the Caprica Resistance (The Farm)." Was it destroyed? I got the impression that, aside from Starbuck wrecking Sue-Shawn's (sp?) unit, that it largely survived intact. I may have missed some dialog on that. --20:01, 16 October 2006 (CDT)
:In Precipice, Kara states that she blew the crap out of it. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:04, 16 October 2006 (CDT)
::It's up to debate. Starbuck is very emotional about the whole topic and the onscreen evidence from The Farm doesn't support total destruction of the facility. And I take anything that Leoben Conoy says with a dumptruck load of salt because everything he says is either twisted truth or lies. So what happened to Starbuck's ovaries I think is still a mystery.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:32, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's Name ==

Kacey = KAra thraCE-connoY ? ;o) -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 11:43, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:no. :=P --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 11:44, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
::Perhaps if she really were thair offspring, but Kacey has a real mum. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-10-30T03:26:40Z

GIR: /* Interesting Info */

:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]

==Major Concision==
I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the [[Tory Foster]] suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.

As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.

I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain.

Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

==Interesting Info==
Read the [http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/30381 interview] below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" | We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character
|}

My take on the interview. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

:That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them.
:Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. '''I think''' that they've been boxed." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
:: That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
::: Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.
:Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I ''did'' meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
:Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's Mother ==
Can we start a discussion concerning Kacey's "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when Starbuck and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP.

== Jammer as Cylon speculation ==
I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page. There is little evidence that he is an Cylon. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon. Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all. Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator. He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon. He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials. In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon? What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically. He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him. Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP. Jammer was a dupe. That doesn't make him a cylon. The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon." And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things. The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
::Here's a concisement of my points:
Points against him

1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened? It's a valid question.

Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer). He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified. Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical. Have any of you been to high school? I did. I knew dozens of kids like that. And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion. She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation. This is not evidence.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.

4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death? And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive. He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple. He's right, not wrong. Not a Cylon. We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed. Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice? Not evidence.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

That's all the points made on the article page. The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident. And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon. If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.

Points for him

1 - His motivations are pretty clear. He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out.

2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP. You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.

3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute. How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon? Don't they just download?

4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.

5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.

6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor. I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)

So that's
1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
6 points that he's not a Cylon
I say he should be down to Low Probability.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

:You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:

:''It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon''
::As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.

:''Not Points against him''

:''1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.''

::No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on.

:''2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.''

::Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.

:''3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.''

::I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.

:''4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.''

::Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.

:''5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.''

::I agree, not a good argument.

:''6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.''

::Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.

:''7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.''

::This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.

:''8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.''

::Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.

:The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against.

:It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.
:--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this. I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section. There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon. So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be so strong.

To the points:

1. 'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?

2. 'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon. He's paranoid. He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one. Why not Tyrol? And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was: She should be mad at Boomer. Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander. He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.

4. 'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it. And he made valid points. Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before? No. As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task. Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do. I'd be pessimistic. His feeling were extremely valid. But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?

6. "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege? Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans? I agree with his statement. It is sacrilege. I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time. Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it. The kid is torn. And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort. His reactions are very understandable.

8. "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number. I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen. At least 50 is a good assessment. We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP. The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors. Jammer just happened to be among the survivors. I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck. It looked like somebody else. Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.

You know who Jammer is? He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details. He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better. He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show. In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.

Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated. Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot. Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should. D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet. In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer... The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.

You are right about what the writers may decide to do. Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline. Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon. So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.

:I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

::No, I don't agree. I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind. I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences. Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone". What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission. It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish. He was going to die! Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns? That was the point of that pass by. I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck. I don't know how you think that he's too obvious. He seems so typical of a kid his age. Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon). All these agents were planted in places of significance. Jammer... is a deckhand. All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places. And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery. The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect. In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility. The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon. This is in the least bit evidence. In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon. Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

== Anders Speculation ==

While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.{{Unsigned|Mitchy}}

== "Cylon on Cylon violence" ==

At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of ''Downloaded'' was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.

At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. [[User:Damburger|Damburger]] 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person ''knew'' they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

::It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Her ''human personality'' does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

== Character Elimination. ==

I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.

At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.

:I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

Exodus, Part II

2006-10-30T03:16:25Z

GIR: /* Questions */

{{cleanup}}

{{Episode Data
| title= Exodus, Part II
| image=TighAdamaReunion.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 4
| guests= [[Lucy Lawless]] as [[Number Three]]
| writer= [[Bradley Thompson]] [[David Weddle]]
| story=
| director= [[Félix Enríquez Alcalá]]
| production= 304
| rating=
| US airdate= 2006-10-20
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population=
| prev= [[Exodus, Part I]]
| next= [[Collaborators]]
| podcast= Y
}}

== Overview ==

:''Commander [[Lee Adama]] of the battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)| Pegasus]]'' has serious doubts about the success of the [[New Caprica]] rescue mission by ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''. On New Caprica, [[Saul Tigh]] decides the consequences for his [[Ellen Tigh |wife's]] betrayal of [[The Resistance | the Resistance]]. Aboard ''Galactica'', Admiral [[William Adama]] executes a dramatic rescue plan.''

== Summary ==

*On ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', [[Lee Adama]] and [[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] talk of ''[[Galactica]]'s'' mission. Adama worries that Admiral Adama's mission will fail, and about his impending responsibilities as leader of [[The Fleet]]. Dee notes that Lee has given up hope on his father, but expresses her faith in her husband.
*On New Caprica, [[Samuel Anders]] confronts [[Saul Tigh]] about [[Ellen Tigh|his wife Ellen's]] betrayal and tells him that either Tigh "takes care" of Ellen, or someone less sympathetic will do so.
*Ellen Tigh explains her recent actions, that she would do absolutely anything to save Saul, including betraying the resistance. Tigh consoles her and provides her a drink when she asks. She falls unconscious, her drink having been poisoned by her husband. He says that he loves her, rests his head on her corpse, and weeps.
*On ''[[Colonial One]]'', [[Gaius Baltar]] tells the Cylons that they have failed in their experiment and suggests the Cylons simply leave. A [[Number Three|Three]] voices the concern that one day the descendants of mankind might exact vengeance upon the Cylons, should they be left to their own devices.
[[Image:Saulellen.jpg|Saul handing Ellen her poisoned drink.|thumb]]

*[[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]] suddenly looks up, noticing dozens of explosions can outside the window, signalling the beginning of the [[Battle of New Caprica]].
*Anders and the resistance team has set a series of explosions, mimicing a Fleet attack and causing confusion among the [[cylons]]. [[Tory Foster]] commands a team of section leaders in the evacuation and orders [[Maya]] to head for her ship with [[Hera|Isis]].
*Anders and a large group of resistance fighters retrieve weapons from beneath the [[Pyramid (RDM)|Pyramid]] court to rescue the detainees in the [[New Caprica Detention Center|detention center]].
*In space above New Caprica, ''Galactica'' deploys a squadron of Raptors and Vipers. The Raptors launch [[swallow]]s to mimic the EM signature of two Colonial battlestars. The Cylons pick them up and fall for the ruse, moving two basestars with their Raiders away from the planet.
*When [[Leoben Conoy]] leaves the residence inside the Detention Center to aid with the fighting, he keeps [[Kara Thrace]] inside. She assaults him and tries to escape, but he knocks her unconscious.
*[[Tom Zarek]] tasks [[James Lyman|Jammer]] to protect [[Laura Roslin]] as she makes her way to ''Colonial One''.
*At the entrance to the shipyard, where the Cylons keep the grounded Colonial vessels, a team under Tigh and [[Galen Tyrol]] are pinned down by [[Cylon Centurion]]s.
*The Cylons detect the decoy drones, but ''Galactica'' jumps into the planet's upper atmosphere and plunges rapidly towards the planet. Mid-descent, ''Galactica'' launches its Vipers. Before colliding with the ground, the ship jumps back into space. The Vipers begin to attack targets on the ground and clear the way.
*As others are freed from the Detention Center, Anders finds his unconscious wife and carries her away, but when Thrace awakens, she goes back to retrieve [[Kacey]].
*The battle is turning against ''Galactica''. Her FTL drives are down, weapons are offline and there is heavy structural damage from the atmospheric entry. Four Cylon basestars are closing in and the battlestar is soon bombarded from all sides with no hope of survival. At that moment ''Pegasus'' joins the battle, Lee Adama having disobeyed his father's orders. He opens fire with the forward batteries and destroys one basestar in the opening salvo.
*The Cylons realize that they have lost and decide to evacuate the planet. [[Number Three]] volunteers to stay behind and set off the nuclear weapon that was left in the city for such a contingency. She offers Baltar a place with the Cylons and leaves.
*The Colonial ships initiate intra-atmosphere [[FTL|jumps]] from New Caprica as soon as they become airborne.
*''Pegasus'' is heavily bombarded by missiles, having left all of her Vipers back with the rest of the civilian Fleet. Admiral Adama realizes that his son has planned a one-way mission for ''Pegasus'', and orders recall of ''Galactica's'' fighters.
*On ''Colonial One'', [[Felix Gaeta]] holds Baltar at gunpoint, and accuses of having betrayed humanity. Gaeta admits his guilt in idealistically believing in Baltar, but has realized, in the end ,that Baltar was only thinking about himself. Baltar admits his own guilt and begs Gaeta to shoot him. Gaeta relents, however, giving Baltar a final chance to redeem himself: stop Three from setting off the nuclear bomb.
*With ''Pegasus'' dying, Lee Adama orders everyone to abandon ship. He sets the ship [[CBDR]] with a basestar as the last of the crew leaves in Raptors. ''Pegasus’'' collides with a basestar, destroying it; The remains of ''Pegasus’'' starboard [[flight pod]] collides with and destroys yet another basestar.
*Kara Thrace retrieves Kacey, but Conoy has returned and confronts her. She appears to give in to his demands, says "I love you," and kisses him. However, Thrace uses the diversion to stab him. She picks up Kacey and leaves with Anders.
*Three searches [[Dodona Selloi]]'s tent, but the [[oracle]] has left. Outside, [[Caprica-Six]] and Baltar find Hera next to [[Maya]]'s body, still alive. Three arrives, asks to hold the child, and leaves with her. [[Caprica-Six]] says Three no longer intends to detonate the nuke, then leaves the planet with Baltar.
*Laura Roslin and a group of resistance fighters enter the now abandoned ''Colonial One'' and are the last ship to leave the planet.
*On ''Galactica'', many people are reunited as Tyrol immediately takes charge of ushering the incoming refugees. When Thrace shows Kacey to Tyrol, another woman walks by and recognizes the girl as her daughter, whom the Cylons had taken away. The mother thanks Thrace for rescuing Kacey. Thrace is shocked by the revelation that Kacey is not her daughter after all, but gives her up.
*Admiral Adama welcomes Tigh back aboard, and tells him he brought everyone back. Tigh quietly replies, "[[Ellen Tigh|Not all of them]]." The colonists in ''Galactica's'' [[hangar deck]] begin chanting "A-dam-a, A-dam-a..." and carry the admiral on their shoulders. Adama turns to see Tigh wandering off, numbed with grief.
*Tory Foster tells Roslin that neither Maya nor Hera can be found, and it seems likely neither made it off the planet. Foster apologizes, but Roslin muses that this was part of something bigger than them.
*Admiral Adama shaves off his mustache and returns to a fully staffed [[CIC]], aboard the now very loud, bustling corridors of ''Galactica''.

== Questions ==

*With Baltar missing at the conclusion of this episode, who will become the President of the Twelve Colonies? ([[Collaborators|Answer]])
*What will be the final disposition of the ''Pegasus'' officers, and the former military personnel who have returned from New Caprica? ([[Collaborators|Answer]])
*Did Ellen Tigh know or suspect that the drink was poisoned?
*What consequences will Ellen Tigh's death have for her husband? Will Saul Tigh return to his old alcoholic habits? (Answer<ref>{{cite_web|url=http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/10/battlestar_gala.html|title=Chicago Tribune|date=2006-10-02|accessdate=2006-10-29|last=|first=|format=|language=en}}</ref>)
*What equipment and people were left behind on [[New Caprica]]?
*Will Gaeta be the target of persecution or assassination as a collaborator? Or will people believe in him when he is found out to be the secret informant? ([[Collaborators|Answer]])
*Will [[Cally Tyrol]] identify Jammer as the NCP officer who released her, based on his voice? ([[Collaborators|Answer]])
*Why did Kara Thrace wait to stab Leoben until they kissed?
*What about the Cylons, such as Leoben, who were killed during the insurection? If they were dependant on a resurrection facility on New Caprica, is said facility still operational? If not, is there a resurrection ship in range? ([[Collaborators|Possible answer.]])
*What, besides ''Galactica'' and her crew, was gained by the sacrifice of ''Pegasus''?
* Now that ''Galactica'' is carrying the Viper squadrons from both battlestars, will the starboard flight pod be returned to service?
* What are the Cylons plans for Gaius Baltar? 
* Now that Hera is in the custody of the Cylons, what are their plans for her?
* How does Internal Six know that the baby [[Maya]] had was Hera?
* Where is [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Boomer]]?
* How many ships are in the Fleet as of the [[Battle of New Caprica]]? Also, in light of the exodus, what of consumables and other resources needed to sustain the Fleet? Were these loaded into ships already as part of the escape plan?
* The woman who claimed to be [[Kacey]]'s mother, was she really her mother or is [[Kacey]] really [[Starbucks]] kid? If Kacey is really Starbuck's kid, then does that mean Kacey's "mother" is a Cylon agent?

== Analysis ==

*There is a major plot hole concerning the continuity of the story from Exodus, Part I. In Part I, D'Anna sees Caprica-Sharon in the detention center and is shot by her. Yet in Part II, D'Anna is in Colonial One, apparently unharmed, and has not alerted the Cylons to Sharon's presence.
**That is a different D'Anna. You'll note the D'Anna in Colonial One before the attack is wearing all black, whereas the D'Anna that encountered Sharon typically wears lighter colors. The two D'Annas are seen together in The Occupation.
***This is NOT a different D'Anna. This is the same D'Anna that dreamt about Hera and relayed this information to Sharon Agathon, and later carried Hera in her arms as her dreams foretold. The plot hole stands.
****Some time had passed once the fleet received news that Sharon retrieved the command codes. D'Anna might have been released/resurrected within that time span. We are not told whether she had informed the Cylon leadership of Sharon's presence.
*****It is questionable whether Biers could have bled to death from being shot in the kneecaps/legs since Sharon had stated she didn't intend to kill her; if Biers was released, not only would she have been unable to walk, but she would almost certainly have been questioned by those that found her.
******D'Anna would likely have committed "suicide" to free herself of the knee injuries. She probably did tell the others about Sharon, but it was too late to do anything about her at that point.
****It's been established that different Cylon models usually vote the same way when reaching a consensus. It's entirely possible that one Number Three discussed her dreams with her "sisters", one of which discovered Sharon in the “safety deposit box room”.

*Either the scenes aren't in order or Baltar is not aware of what is going on. In the Gaeta-Baltar scene, Baltar says, "The Cylons have a nuke in this complex. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is getting off this planet alive unless I stop D'Anna." But this is after most of the civilian ships have already jumped.

*Further, until Hera is discovered by Baltar, Three is still looking to set off the nuke -- even though it is clear that the colonists are all long gone.
**It's possible Three wasn't seeking to set off the nuke, but said she was as a ruse to go seek answers about her premonitions concerning Hera.
*** Any nuke held by the Cylons would likely be stored somewhere inside the guarded Cylon perimeter. It appears that this Three made a beeline to the Oracle, and was upset that she was not there. While going through the tent, knocking things over, she is quoted as saying "frackking liar!".
*It is hard to believe that the Cylons were not keeping closer tabs on the whereabouts of the launch keys -- no alarms, etc -- and didn't notice they were gone until the attack started.
*In general, the Cylons seem to have left the planet implausibly underguarded. Considering the strategic nature of the site, as well as the well-known fact that two battlestars remained at large, one would have expected the Cylons to have an overwhelming amount of protection for the planet -- perhaps dozens of basestars.
**It has been established beforehand that the Cylons are overstretched with the occupation. This could account for the lack of protection. At any rate, four basestars against two battlestars is hardly an even match, let alone two half-strength battlestars.
***A Basestar does not seem to be a 1 to 1 match for a Battlestar. They lack offensive and defensive gun batteries, the ability to maneuver quickly, and have a critical design flaw that is easily exploited (central hub holding the six arms together). Basestars depend on missiles and large numbers of Raiders. Adama felt that the Galactica, even barely manned, could hold up to two Cylon Basestars.
****Additionally, RDM has mentioned in his podcasts that the Cylons do have major operations elsewhere hinting at future storylines in the season. It is possible that the Cylon higher command made a strategic decision to guard the planet with what they deemed the minimal required number of basestars to defend against 2 battlestars.
*****One may also be prone to over estimating the number of Basestars the Cylons have. When preparing the attack on the twelve colonies, the Cylons knew that they had surprise and the backdoor computer virus on their side. As such they may not have produced a very large number of basestars (perhaps not even enough to match the number of battlestars the Colonies had). Furthermore, the knowledge that the colonials were ignorant of the location of the Cylon homeworld may have also played a part in them having a smaller fleet. If, for some reason, the attack failed, the cylons could simply retreat and bide their time before trying again. After all, when one is sure he can render his enemy defenseless, there's no real need to produce a pointlessly large army.
*With the former crew of ''Pegasus'' onboard ''Galactica'' now, the ship has something close to its standard crew size. (''Galactica's'' crew was deduced to be 2,693 in the episode "[[Water]]", and ''Pegasus's'' was introduced with a crew count of 1,752 in "[[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]" (see [[Crew tally]]). William Adama notes that over half of the crew has settled on [[New Caprica]] in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]", and Lee confirms that both ships are at half-strength in "[[Occupation]]".) Military operations should be much smoother now, and repairs to the ship in general are more feasible.
**However, many repairs, such as structural, will require shipyard or dockyard facilities equiped with replacement parts and heavy repair machinery required for such repairs, and these facilities are no longer available. The ''Galactica'' may never again be the fighting force that it once was.
*While the combination of the ''Pegasus'' and ''Galactica'' air groups give the latter battlestar a full-strength fighter wing, the Fleet has suffered the loss of its most advanced and best-armed warship. With it also went the capability to build replacement Vipers, unless one of the civilian ships can be converted for such a purpose. Defensively, the Fleet is pretty much back to the position it was in when it left the Colonies.
**However, the Galactica did take significant structural damage during the conflict, therefore, it currently isn't in the same state of battle readiness as it was at the time it left the Colonies.
*It appears during the whole conflict in atmospheric combat that the Raiders were spending most of their time running from the Vipers. This may be due to the fact that Colonial Vipers have a far superior atmospheric design where Raiders are optimized for space operations. The Viper has a stabilizing vertical wing which aids the pilot in manuevering through the atmosphere just like all real-life combat aircraft. The Raider lacks this stabilizer wing much reducing their effectiveness in aeronautic combat and manuevering thrusters are not as effective in air as in space due to resistance. This made the tactic of depositing the ''Galactica's'' Vipers into a solely air-support role for evacuating ships very effective once the Space-borne Raiders were decoyed away from the planet so that the ''Galactica'' only had to face the Basestars, not the Raiders.
**The lack of a stabilising fin might not impede the Raider's atmospheric performance, as there are certainly ways of compensating for it (see, e.g., the B-2 'Spirit'). And with several months of occupation (during which we see Raiders making fly-bys), the Raiders should have had more than enough time to become familiar with the quirks of atmospheric manoeuvring.
***However, the B-2 'Spirit' is a bomber and not a combat fighter and there is no example of a successful combat fighter without a stabilizing wing (or wings) on the tail. Compensating for atmospheric forces would make flight exceptionally difficult for craft designed primarily for spaceflight.
*''Pegasus'' seemed to fulfill its role just like the [[Pegasus (TOS)|original ''Pegasus'']], as it fought to the end to defeat two basetars and allowed ''Galactica'' along with the last of the fleet to escape from the Cylons.

== Notes ==
* "[[Exodus, Part II]]" was awarded the [[Awards and Honors|IGN.com Editor's choice award]], following a review in which it recieved a rating of 9/10. This marks the second of such awards presented for the third season, the first of which was awarded for the season premiere [[Occupation]].
* There is also a TOS comic named ''[[Exodus!]]''
* The two parts of "Exodus" were originally planned as one episode. However, it was quickly realized that the story was far too large for one episode and it was split in two. This happened before with "[[Scattered]]", "[[Valley of Darkness]]" and "[[Resurrection Ship, Part I|Resurrection Ship]]." It also helped save money because the construction of New Caprica, the extensive location shooting, the number of actors, as well as the special effects for "Exodus, Part II" were very expensive and the production was over budget.
* Apparently the viper Mk.VIIs deployed by Galactica in this episode have a yellow engine-glow instead of their usual blue. This may be a visual-effects gaffe or the engines might have been affected by the nebular gas or by using a different type of fuel or engine.
* The moment where Lee pauses to look back at the ''Pegasus'' CIC and says "thank you" references a parallel moment in the [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Ds9 Deep Space Nine] episode [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Changing_Face_of_Evil "The Changing Face of Evil"], in which, after the doomed Defiant is ordered evacuated, Captain Sisko takes a long look back at his ruined bridge. As with the ''Pegasus'', in the next shot, the ship is destroyed. Bradley Thompson and David Weddle, who wrote "Exodus, Part II", were staff writers on DS9.
*This episode marks the destruction of the ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

*''Discussing the failure of the occupation:''
:'''Number Three''': What would you have us do, Gaius?
:'''Gaius Baltar''': Leave. Pack up your centurions, and go. Please. Go.
:'''Number Three''': And then what? What would you do if we really just left you here? You'd live out your lives in peace and never trouble yourselves with thoughts of us again? Or would you raise your children with stories of the Cylon, the mechanical slaves who once did your bidding, only to turn against you? Killers who committed genocide against your race, the occupiers of this city until we just ran away? Would you tell them to tell the story to their children, and to their childrens' children, and nurse a dream of vengeance down through the years so that one day they could just go out into the stars and hunt the Cylon once more?
:'''Gaius Baltar''': Blood for blood ...has to stop one day.

*''Roslin heads to Colonial One:''
:'''Roslin''': My ship's up there.
:'''Zarek''': You sure have a sense of the dramatic.

*''Adama comes to accept ''Galactica'''s end:''
:'''Admiral Adama:''' Then that's it. It's been an honor.

*''After Hearing Pegasus Has Joined Galactica
:'''Admiral William Adama''': Damn You, Lee ...Thank You, Lee.

*''The Pegasus is evacuated before its destruction:''
:'''Dualla:''' Alright, people, let's move. Out! Let's go. (To Lee): You too, Commander.
:'''Commander Lee Adama:''' Yes, sir. (Begins to leave, then stops and looks around at Pegasus): Thank you.

*''As the two Adamas reunite after the battle:''
:'''Admiral William Adama''': I guess you didn't understand my orders.
:'''Commander Lee Adama''': I never could read your handwriting.

*''Adama welcomes Col. Tigh back to ''Galactica:''
:'''Adama:''' You did it, Saul. You brought them back.
:'''Tigh:''' Not all of them.

== Official Statements ==

== Guest Stars ==
*[[Michael Hogan]] as [[Saul Tigh]]
*[[Aaron Douglas]] as [[Galen Tyrol]]
*[[Tahmoh Penikett]] as Lt. [[Karl Agathon|Karl "Helo" Agathon]]
*[[Nicki Clyne]] as [[Cally Henderson Tyrol|Cally Tyrol]]
*[[Alessandro Juliani]] as [[Felix Gaeta]]
*[[Kandyse McClure]] as [[Anastasia Dualla]]
*[[Michael Trucco]] as [[Samuel Anders]]
*[[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]]
*[[Rick Worthy]] as [[Simon]]
*[[Callum Keith Rennie]] as [[Leoben Conoy]]
*[[Kate Vernon]] as [[Ellen Tigh]]
*[[Matthew Bennett]] as [[Number Five]]
*[[Rekha Sharma]] as [[Tory Foster]]
*[[Luciana Carro]] as Lt. [[Louanne Katraine|Louanne "Kat" Katraine]]

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:Episodes written by Bradley Thompson]]
[[Category:Episodes written by David Weddle]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Félix Enríquez Alcalá]]
[[Category:RDM]]

[[de:Exodus, Part II]]