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Humanoid Cylon

2006-03-12T22:24:40Z

FIDS: /* Number Three */

[[Image:Humano-cylon_group.jpg|thumb|Cylon copies of [[Aaron Doral]], [[Number Six]], and [[Leoben Conoy]] at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]]]
== Overview ==

Following the end of the [[Cylon War]], the Cylons withdrew from Colonial space to a planet of their own. For some 40 years, nothing was heard of them, and no apparent attempt was made by the Colonials to keep an eye on them. The only contact expected between the two was at annual meetings at [[Armistice Station]]. However, while the Colonials sent a repesentative to the station every year, the Cylons did not ([[Miniseries]]).

During their forty years of isolation, the Cylons developed or evolved a ''humanoid form'' that very closely mimics human form, down to the cellular level, but not completely at a molecular level.

'''Cylon agents'''{{ref|name}} have the capacity to emulate many human physical acts, including sex, as demonstrated by the Number Six and Sharon Valerii models.

Cylon agents can be programmed to believe that they are truly human. These are known as "sleeper" agents. Sleeper agents appear to have a low-level Cylon personality that can conduct operations while placing the human sleeper personality "on-hold". The [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|first copy of Sharon Valerii]], known by her callsign of "Boomer" on battlestar ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'', had little awareness of her true nature until her arrest for the attempted assassination of [[William Adama]] ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). This sleeper agent conducted or aided in sabotage operations within the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] ("[[Water]]", "[[Litmus]]"). Most agent copies, particularly [[Number Five|Numbers Five]] [[Number Six|and Six]], imitate human personalities, but are fully aware of their true nature.

[[Image:Valerii_optic_input.jpg|left|thumb|A [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|copy of Sharon Valerii]] interfaces with ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica's]]'' [[Computers|mainframe computer]] and communication systems by fiber-optic link. (c) Universal]]
Although they cannot do so remotely or wirelessly, Cylon agents can interface with a computer system or computer network through subdermal physical contact with input cables connected to the devices. Caprica-Sharon connected to the ''Galactica'''s computers by this method in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]" when she inserted a fiber-optic cable through her left palm and into her arm.

Cylon agent brains are human in appearance, but are apparently still susceptible to damage from certain types of radiation. Upon the death of an agent's body, a Cylon agent transfers its consciousness into another copy of itself. This ability is limited by distance, signal integrity, and proximity to a resurrection node or, in space, a [[Resurrection Ship]] ([[Miniseries]], "[[Flesh and Bone]]." "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]"). Based on [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica Sharon Valerii]]'s conversation with [[Kara Thrace]] in the episode, "[[The Farm]]," it appears that all Cylon agents may share a ''collective knowledgebase'' of data from other active or deactivated Cylon agents. Valerii spoke of a conversation between Thrace and a captured [[Leoben Conoy]] copy in the Fleet. This information would only be known to that now-dead Leoben copy if sharing were not possible. Kara Thrace's call sign, Starbuck, was also a likely bit of information gleaned from the collective knowledgebase that [[Simon]] knew of the Viper pilot, although Thrace never told him of her call sign and used it to strike back at her abductors ([[The Farm]]). Also, during "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]," Caprica-Valerii asked [[Anastasia Dualla]] if she still carried her pocket knife, a fact which would have been known only to the ''Galactica'' copy. When under duress, the copy of Sharon Valerii known as "Boomer" on ''Galactica'' was able to tell [[Gaius Baltar]] the number of remaining Cylon agent agents in the fleet, information that would be impossible to gather without a collective knowledgebase ([[Resistance]]).

Some or all Cylon "female" models may have the capacity to bear children seeded by human males ([[33]], [[Flesh and Bone]], [[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]], [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). The Cylons tested numerous methods of sexual reproduction, yet these failed due to a known flaw in the Cylon agent design. Cylon agents cannot reproduce with each other biologically, and, attempting to subvert this deficiency, they have been trying to interbreed with humans to create hybrid offspring. "Farms" were apparently set up across all the occupied Colonies where survivors, specifically, young fertile women of child-bearing age, were rounded up, placed under heavy sedation and turned into "baby machines" through artificial insemination. However, this method has not met with success. Another drastically different approach was taken by attempting to conceive a child through a bond of love. It seems that [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Sharon Valerii]]'s love-child is the lone success story of the relatively short history of Cylon sexual reproduction ([[The Farm]]).

== Known Cylon Agent Models ==
[[Image:Cylonagentdossier.jpg|right|200px]]
There are twelve models of humanoid Cylons ([[Miniseries]]). Thus far, seven models have been revealed to ''viewers'' as Cylon agents{{ref|dossier}}. However, only '''six''' models are actually known to the Colonial ''characters'' as agents as of the episode, "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]."

=== [[Number Three]] ===

This model was witnessed by viewers posing as a reporter from the [[Fleet News Service]] and was revealed to be a Cylon at the end of "[[Final Cut]]" when a second copy was shown living on Caprica. Of all the Cylon agent models revealed to viewers, the Colonials are not yet aware that D'anna Biers is a Cylon agent as of the season two finale, "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]"

Part of Biers' mission within ''Galactica's'' fleet (which fits her work as a journalist) likely involves the relay of important intelligence within the Fleet, such as the status of the pregnant Caprica copy of Sharon Valerii.

A copy of this model has appeared under the name/alias "[[D'anna Biers]]".

=== [[Number Five]] ===

This model attempts to sow the seeds of discontent or confusion, particularly during crucial life-threatening situations, and endeavors to undermine authority that threatens his objectives. ([[Miniseries]]) Doral models are more covert, assuming an ordinary "everyman" appearance that's blended in what may seem to be insignificant behind-the-scenes issues (such as converting ''Galactica'' into a museum). Of all the models thus far, the Aaron Doral models are the most militant, fanatic and consistent in message and objectives to the Cylon objectives, whether he is dispassionately discussing the fate of humanity with his comrades or attempting to kill or maim Colonials in a suicide bomb attack ([[Litmus]]). Viewers first meet Doral during a tour of ''Galactica'' with other Colonial citizens (possibly the press) as we see the battlestar for the first time at the start of the [[Miniseries]]. The viewers aren't sure of Doral's true identity as the second Cylon agent they've seen until the end of the Miniseries, however.

Copies of this model have appeared under the name/alias "[[Aaron Doral]]".

A copy of Number Five is seen with [[Caprica-Six]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)]] at the end of Season 2, and seems to be in command of the others. While Six and Sharon express concern and warning to Baltar and the New Capricans, Five expresses threat.

=== [[Number Six]] ===

This model utilizes the human need / desire for sexual relations to her advantage. She is religious and monotheistic. She desires to know what it is to be alive.

Typically she is the alpha female, as demonstrated on multiple occasions ([[Miniseries]], "[[33]]," "[[Water]]," "[[Six Degrees of Separation]]").

Copies of this model have appeared under the names/aliases "[[Shelly Godfrey]]" , "[[Gina]]", and "[[Caprica-Six|Caprica]]".

=== [[Number Eight]] ===

The Valerii model is generally a saboteur designed to infiltrate Colonial military units and is likely programmed to use any Colonial munitions to cause havoc ([[Water]]). The Valerii model is the closest witnessed Cylon agent model to show its abilities as a soldier. This model has shown naiveté in many matters. She is apparently not as religious as other Cylon models, but has demonstrated that she can love, and is capable of being impregnated by a human ("[[Six Degrees of Separation]]," "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]"). She may be "defective", as the Cylon programming within the sleeper agent known as "Boomer" on ''Galactica'' conflicted multiple times with its human personality ([[Water]]). Also, the fully aware Sharon Valerii found by [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] on Caprica has fully switched alliances from Cylon to Colonial after falling in love with Helo and is now aiding the Colonials (several episodes, most notably "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]"). Valerii is the third Cylon agent introduced during the [[Miniseries]]. However, viewers do not discover her true identity until the very end of the Miniseries when a second copy appears at [[Ragnar Anchorage]] while retrieving the abandoned copy of Aaron Doral.

[[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Copies]] of this model have appeared under the name "[[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]]".

=== [[Leoben Conoy]] ===

Leoben Conoy was the fourth model witnessed by viewers (although viewers would not know until the end of the [[Mini-Series]] that they had already met the ''third'' humanoid Cylon, Sharon Valerii). The Conoy model has shown to be religiously oriented, using dogma and intermixing truth with falsehoods. It was first discovered on [[Ragnar Station]], claiming to be a scavenger / arms dealer ([[Miniseries]]).

He can be likened to the serpent of the [[Wikipedia:Genesis|Genesis]] tale in the Earth [[Wikipedia: Christian Bible|Christian Bible]], taunting people with knowledge then watching as the negative consequences come into devastating fruition. Leoben copies have likely been encountered by the [[Resistance (movement)|Caprica Resistance movement]], as [[Samuel Anders]] recites in jest some comments made by another Leoben copy captured in [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] ("[[Flesh and Bone]]," "[[The Farm]]").

=== [[Simon]] ===

The Simon model was encountered by [[Kara Thrace|Kara "Starbuck" Thrace]] Cylon-occupied [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]]. Posing as a doctor, Simon was actually involved with the Cylon hybridization program. Simon resembles a tall, somewhat thin middle-aged black man who speaks in a comforting strong voice ([[The Farm]]) Unlike other models, Simon doesn't seem to have many military aspects to his physical or mental configuration, and was easily overcome by a wounded Thrace. Simon may be a model based primarily on human intellectualism.

=== [[Cavil]] ===

Brother Cavil provided council to [[Chief Tyrol]] after his maddened attack against [[Cally]]. Despite his disdain in prayer and religous pomp and circumstance ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]), Cavil went through a prayer session with [[Laura Roslin]], the latter apparently hoping that prayer would aid her success in the elections. Another copy of Cavil was seen on [[Caprica]], informing the [[SAR]] team some 18 hours after the Cylons ceased their attack that the Cylons had left the Colonies. When the Caprica SAR team returned to ''Galactica'', Tyrol recognized and identified him as a Cylon agent. For a priest and especially for a cylon, he displays an utter disdain for religion, both the human belief in many gods and the Cylon faith in a one true god.

[[Cavil#Caprica-Cavil|Caprica-Cavil]] alleges that he was sent to ''Galactica'' as a messenger of peace. He relayed what occurred after [[Caprica-Six]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)]] were rescued from the wreckage of the cafe bombing ("[[Downloaded]]"). That they had used their new found celebrity to voice what many in the Cylon population felt themselves... The Cylon annihilation of the human race and occupation of the Twelve Colonies was wrong. Caprica-Cavil told [[William Adama|Admiral Adama]] and [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]] that the Cylons would go their own way, and leave the Fleet alone.

This ended up not being true — whether or not the Cavils intentionally lied is a fact that remains unknown ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

== Speculated Infiltrators ==

See the [[Cylon agent speculation]] article for analysis on characters and their likelihood of being a Cylon agent, based on episode information.

==Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models==

In a 10/24/05 interview on "The Chase Show" on the SF webcast news site [http://www.thefandom.com/Article50.phtml TheFandom.com] with veteran "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" actress [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0557732/ Chase Masterson], Ron D. Moore is interviewed and directly answers two key questions in the Twelve Models debate and the origin of Sharon Valerii in particular. Here is a transcription of that interview segment.

:'''Chase''': ... I just have to ask something... is there one Boomer that's just human?
:'''Ron''': No, there's not. I mean, the idea is not there was one like an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these were... these models of Cylon were developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said, "Well, you know what, there's really only twelve of you... and these are the twelve." And then if you look at them, they kind of represent different archetypes of what humanity is. Um, Sharon, in particular — Sharon-Boomer, went through quite a trans-metamorphosis because in the original mini-series script, in the first draft, she wasn't a Cylon at all. She was going to be just — I wrote her just — I wanted a youngish pilot, who was the rookie, who was sort of vulnerable in ways, who made mistakes in ways that you're not used to seeing your heroes on TV shows do, and I was really interested in this idea of the officer, the female officer in love with the male deck chief in violation of all the rules and I kinda thought, going forward, that she and the [[Galen Tyrol|chief]], in combination with [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]], who's really only in the mini-series and one or two other episodes, would form sort of our family unit, that that was kind of a family...
:'''Chase''': OK...
:'''Ron''': ... and actually, after that first draft was written, it was [[David Eick]], my producing partner, who said, "You know what, if at the end of this thing, at the very end when all the Cylons walk into Armistice — into the [[Ragnar Anchorage|Ragnar station]] at the end... if you turn around and Sharon is one of the Cylons, he said, we're definitely gonna get picked up for a series.
:'''Chase''': (laughs) OK... that did make... that really did seal the deal...
:'''Ron''': ... and I just really went... that's a great idea and I realized that, because I'd had laid... I had written a story straight, I really hadn't cheated. There was no hint of who Sharon might be, and it really did suck you in, and really sort of, you believed her as a person first, and then we revealed her as a Cylon.
:'''Chase''': ... Right....
:'''Ron''': ... And so what happened after that was, I assumed going into the first season — well I didn't assume, I just planned... to slowly, over the course of the first year, peel back the layers — that Sharon would only start to sort of discover her Cylon nature by the end of the first year.
:'''Chase''': Oh, God... and it was heartbreaking, watching that unfold, because I loved her much as human, and she was just adorable, with him and then with the kid, it was like, oh, what a great girl, she's um... you know, young and cute, and — who's the actress — and that whole thing, and then you're like, WHAT?
:'''Ron''': Yeah...
:'''Chase''': ... She's the enemy...
:'''Ron''': I know then, she's the enemy, then she's the one that is your most worry, what's she gonna do next.
:'''Chase''': Yeah. You really took us on quite a journey there. I was still hoping for a human one running around somewhere, but no, huh?....
:'''Ron''': No.
:'''Chase''': Oh, well...

With this information from the show's main creative leader, it is established as canon that:

* There are precisely twelve ''human'' Cylon models. The other varieties of Cylon spacecraft or fighters are not factored into this count of 12 models.
* Sharon Valerii was ''never'' an actual human, and neither were the other Cylon agent models.
* The twelve models are based on on archetypes determined by the Cylons that form what they perceive were the specific kinds of human behavior and/or personality, distilled into twelve varieties.

==Note==
*{{note|name}}Viewers initially lacked an authentic term to call the humanoid Cylons during season 1 of the series. Here on the ''Battlestar Wiki'', the descriptive term "Humano-Cylon" was used for a time. Dialogue in several episodes throughout season 2 have consistently used "Cylon agent" to describe the humanoid Cylons. Other names are also used, such as "humanoid-Cylons" (which [[Tricia Helfer]] often uses in interviews, but apparently more for convenience than an official name), or "Bio-Cylons" which is sometimes used derisively by fans of the Original Series.
**Some of the resistance fighters on Caprica refer to the Humano-Cylons as Skin Jobs, a reference to Blade Runner.
*{{note|dossier}}The term "Known Cylon agents" is shown on a dossier on the models shown on [[Laura Roslin]]'s desk on ''[[Colonial One]]'' in the episode "[[Epiphanies]]."

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II/Archive2

2006-03-12T21:20:31Z

FIDS: Firefly connection

== The Cliffhanger ==

I'm betting that Baltar's little gift to the [[Demand Peace]] movement makes its way to ''Pegasus'' and is about to destroy or mortally damage the battlestar in this season closer. Mortally damaging it makes more sense to allow ''Galactica'' (and the show) to gather some of the new resources that ''Pegasus'' brought before it has to be removed from the picture. Perhaps, in coordination with a probable Cylon attack, ''Pegasus'' may end up doing a "[[The Living Legend, Part II|Commander Cain charge]]" at the start of Season 3. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:52, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quite drinking...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:02, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::Is it just me, or does the second season seem to be bouncing from cliffhanger to cliffhanger, with the in-between episodes being nothing but filler? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:08, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:::It isn't just you... Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quit sniffing glue. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:22, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::::I don't mind the "filler" episodes. I believe you need them to set up future stories down the road. I believe PEGASUS will stick around for one or two episodes next year(Gives them time to strip her down)....Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines!--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:36, 15 February 2006 (EST)

There's no cliffhanger, really. The Cylons win, humanity is occupied and the ships of the fleet are essentially empty with everyone down on Cylon-occupied New Caprica. The show is completely different from here on out. Cloud Nine is gone (which from a production standpoint makes sense--- no need for a planet-like ship when they have an actual planet) and all the leads but Lee, Adama and possibly Sharon are on the planet, hoping not to be killed by their new Cylon overlords. It's awesome. Oh, girlBilly seems to be sticking around as a character as well. [[User:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]]

:You have no idea; that's just fanfic. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:11, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::Could one or the other of you please explain what that last enormous edit-and-reversion was all about? Numbertwelve, have you seen the episode in question? Are you passing on reports from other sources, and if so, can you identify them? Merv, are you familiar with a fanfic that resembles his description? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:18, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::Well, it sounds like he was just posting his own ''guesses/fanfic ideas'' without any basis on actual material, so I cleaned it up. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)
::::I believe that the info is coming from [http://greycoupon.livejournal.com/3808.html BIG SPOILERS]. Don't know the validity of it though.
:::::Based on the what I've read of the Part I summary, I'd say that the information was actually accurate. That said, I'm not sure this site really wants to post detailed episode summaries before the episode has actually aired anywhere, especially when we have no way of confirming the source.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:35, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: In all likelihood, numbertwelve's comments stem from [http://www.patriotresource.com/bg/insights/spoilers/season2b.html here]. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:24, 8 March 2006 (CST)

::::::: Judging by that picture, I think those spoilers might be right, though I seriously hope they are dead wrong, anyone else hope this? --[[User:LeobenConoy|LeobenConoy]] 02:30, 10 March 2006 (TST)

:::::::: It certainly would be a heck of a sharp turn for the series, but, y'know, I'm OK with that. RDM really kinda needs to keep making sharp turns to keep the series from falling too much into the established track of the Original Series, for one thing. For another thing, I like surprises :-) I don't want this story to become too predictable. Actually, when I look back over the two seasons to date, RDM et alia have not allowed us to settle into anything like a routine for more than a few episodes before they kick over the tables again. That's a good thing. That said, if the spoilers are in fact correct...it's going to be a long six months 'til we find out how the situation resolves itself...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:12, 9 March 2006 (CST)

::::::::: Well, actually, [[user:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]] was right! I don't know who he/she is, but (s)he knew what'll happen exactly in ''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'' Anyway, it's the best ep so far! --[[User:Nyiz|Nyiz]] 16:14, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== The Peace Proposal ==

I haven't actually seen "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]", yet (I don't have cable, so I'm basically watching via DVD as time allows), but reading the summary, I see no mention of the Cylon peace proposal in the story as aired. It looks as though the preliminary data for the episodes was somewhat misleading, and that the peace proposal won't come until Part II. The Part II article, however, still reflects the old information. Should this be changed now? Or just wait for Friday's airing and the full summary?--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:32, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Speechless ==
Holy crap they turned everything on its head. I can't think of a better way of stating the obvious. ONE YEAR LATER!?!?!? Crap. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 22:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Yep...and we'll have to wait about that frakkin' long to find out WTF happens next...:)
[[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 22:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Well, look at it this way - if they ever want to bring [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]] back due to chronology issues, they now have an excuse. Actually, I'm surprised they didn't have the character (if not the actor) doing a cameo in the schooltent.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I personally was asking, "Where's the kicker?" Well, nothing like a second Cylon occupation to do that for you. As for October...hell, they haven't even started shooting the season yet. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:32, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::You really have to find it pretty ironic that Baltar's fraked over the Colonies again. He gives Gina the bomb, fraks her, she blows up Cloud 9 (and Gods know how many ships she took with her in that blast) and Baltar forces everyone to colonize the plantet... and the Cylons find it because of the nuclear blast. How's that for a kicker? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Katee Sackhoff has to grow out her hair. She can't keep using that wig all season. Well, and the writers haven't figured out what the hell they're going to do now :P [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:06, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::I'm not sure when this episode was filmed, but she still has a month to go before they start shooting Season 3, according to SciFi. I'm sure Moore and friends have plenty of ideas to go with. The questions posted for this episode should give some possible ideas, if they even read this thing. :P --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
That was totally awesome. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:37, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I was on pins and needles the entire time. It was so good! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:56, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Well Then... ==

Wasn't that something. I glanced over the rumors prior, but it has to be seen to get the real effect. That, and I was hoping they were dead wrong. --[[User:Michael|Michael]] 22:16, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought generally the execution of these spoilers was much better than my expections. --[[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 00:10, 11 March 2006 (EST)

== "Rampant speculation" re Starbuck/Conoy connection ==

I don't think that the ''analysis'' section is the place for something with little backing... at least currently.

: ''Although this is rampant speculation, given the warped obsession/relationship that Leoben has with Starbuck, is it possible that Starbuck's stolen egg cells from "[[The Farm]]" were fertilized with genetic material from the Leoben model to create a new Hybrid? The Cylons do seem to think she's "special".''

Anyone agree or disagree? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: To expand my point further, ''Conoy'' believed that Starbuck was special. Just because Conoy is a Cylon doesn't mean the ''Cylons'' share his belief. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

No arguements here. I've always been fuzzy on the exact parameters of the "analysis" section, however, this thought occurred to me when I remembered that A) They said that Starbuck's missing ovaries would be mentioned before the end of the season, B) It's going to be a major plot point in season 3.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:03, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: Well, in keeping with the original inspiration for the Wiki -- The Lurker's Guide to B5 -- the analysis section has always analyzed the episode. For instance, what the episode had to say, how that fit in to the grand tapestry, how that fit into real life, and things of that nature. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:12, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Long live the Lurkers guide! Best guide ever. There's also a B5 wiki being created (see my user page for the link). --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:25, 10 March 2006 (CST)

== DubyaBaltar ==

I'd never put this in the actual wiki article, but does it strike anyone else who many jabs they're getting it at another ridiculously incompetent president? "I don't have to listen to the facts...I'm the president". etc. ''Remember, Remember the Fifth of November''.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: Though I don't think GWB has harems. Mr. Nice Gaius seems to have him beat there. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:11, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought it was a reference to Roslin and Adar's statements about "the nice thing about being President..." --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:13, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, Adar said that first. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Plus, Baltar was good friends with Adar prior to the attack. The womanizing was just good 'ol self-serving Baltar. And, when was Gaius ever nice? --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:28, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::See the dialogue section of [[Six Degrees of Separation]] for your answer Sgtpayne. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:31, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Just checked the page requested, and I'm not sure that's helping the argument. The statement is defensive in nature. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:37, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::::It's not an argument, it's an explanation as to why we're calling him "Mr. Nice Gaius". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:51, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Does anyone remember... ==

... that crack Cottle made to Cally regarding women talking * (Actually, the good Doctor said "Complain") even when their jaws are wired shut? If so, we should note it under the dialogue section and perhaps on Cottle's page (he seems to have a penchant for sexist dialogue). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:18, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:You know, Joe, I don't know why you point out "Cottle made a sexist remark here" the times that he does (Downloaded, etc.) I mean that's the type of character he is. I mean, we wouldn't list off "well, Archie Bunker did this sexist thing" in an ''All in the Family'' episode guide. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Good point. Still, since it is a part of his personality, I believe it should be noted appropriately. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:29, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Got it. On a side note, there are lots of ''really'' sexist things Cottle could have said about a woman who can't open her mouth, so maybe he should get some credit for holding back... --[[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 10:39, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::None of us, neither the show or any users here, had even had that implication at any time enter our minds. Complete non sequitor. Disgusting to bring up such crudeness, Mr.JohnH. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:38, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Source?==

"Tyrol's union speech alludes to Mario Savio's address during the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in 1964."-->Can I get confirmation on that?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:[http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mario_Savio This is confirmed]. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:34, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Thanks. Great that the show is so political.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:41, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:::I don't think it's political as much as it is human. This is [[Wikipedia: Naturalistic science fiction|"naturalistic" science fiction]], after all. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:56, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Gina's Scars==
We can clearly see that Gina's back is still badly scarred from her treatment on ''Pegasus'' in this episode. However, I seem to recall her back being completely healed in "Epiphanies". Can anybody confirm? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Er, they're on her lower/mid back, while when she was wearing the tank top, you could only see her upper shoulder blades. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:42, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Playa==
At the end of the episode (near the surrender), I thought I saw [[Playa Palacios|"Miss Exclusive"]], though it may have just been a similar-looking blonde. Can someone check this? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 11:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:She's not in the credits. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:03, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Survivor count==
There's a drop of 29 between part 1 and 2: "''A more reasonable explanation is that there was a late update in the survivor count that took into account those who died off-screen during the Cylon attack on the Pegasus in "[[The Captain's Hand]]". Soldiers who are killed are often listed as MIA (Missing in Action) until they can be confirmed as KIA (Killed in Action). In the aftermath of the attack on the Pegasus, it would have taken a while to determine the exact number of crewmen and pilots killed. Also, there were probably a number of crewmen who died from injuries afterwards. As a result, a delay in updating the survivor count is quite likely''"--->No. The survivor count at the beginning of ''Part 1'' would have accounted for these losses. Part 2 takes place weeks, maybe even 2 months past "Captain's Hand"; even "[[Downloaded]]" comes in before there. 2 episodes and about 2 months passed, and we saw no further losses from Captain's Hand beyond the 5 on screen. And the Survivor Count is omniscient. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:05, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: Once would assume that the Fleet has it share of black market thugs and suicidal people... Not everything has to be Cylon related. Just a thought. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:22, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and I have always argued as such...but then that makes the static pop count from end of Captain's Hand through LDYB part I unrealistic itself. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 16:24, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::Well, one would assume that people are reported as missing prior to being reported as dead. Hence the seemingly unrealistic count changes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:32, 11 March 2006 (CST)

::::Even though I STILL think those losses are most likely late figures from "[[The Captain's Hand]]" (I'm not going to argue about this), another possible reason for the drop could be the results of election-related riots/murders. Stuff like that happens. Either that or the writers just screwed up.--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 16:45, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::And, ultimately, that is the problem... it's all about '''thought''', not '''fact'''. Until we know for certain why these variances occur (and why they register when they do), we could think about it until our brains cry for more oxygen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:58, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Judging by our current standards and conventions, and just logic, no, it is impossible for these to be "left over" number from 3 full episodes ago. Think what you want, but don't add it back to the page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:49, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::::: Just keep in mind, the "omniscient" Survivor Count is controlled by the writers just like everything else. And writers do make mistakes occasionally. Besides what other plausible explanations are there?--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 22:41, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Cloud Nine bodycount. ==

Am I going completely fuzzy-headed here, or is the fact that Cloud Nine was destroyed before the transition to New Caprica being completely overlooked.
''
*How many people died in the Cloud Nine explosion?
**The Cloud Nine explosion also destroyed ships near it. Given the stated size of the New Caprica population along with subtracting the minimal crew sizes needed to maintain the ships in orbit, you can estimate that approximately 3000 to 5000 people died.
***Actually, we have no idea how many people were still crewing the civilian ships in the Fleet when Galactica and Pegasus jumped away, so it could actually have been thousands less than that.''

The answers to the questions, as I remember what I saw, are completely irrelivant. Noone was colonizing the planet yet.
Or am I completely loosing my mind [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:09, 12 March 2006 (CST)
*No, you're quite sane. Admiral Adama had ordered the first teams to New Caprica just before the commercial break, Baltar's last night with Gina, the inauguration, and the blast. There probably wouldn't have been more than a handful of raptor teams on the surface at the time--not enough to make any appreciable dent in the population figures. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:51, 12 March 2006 (EST).

== Where should this error go? ==
When we see it parked on the surface of New Caprica, [[Colonial One]] was missing the Colonial/presidential seal that we've seen before on its port side. Nobody would have scraped it off the hull. I know the people down there are desperate for resources, but ''paint chips''? --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:56, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:Well the real answer is that they crew just plain old forgot to put it in the model, but forcontinuity's sake, it could be hypothesized that someone discontent with the Baltar Administration scraped off the seal in the middle of the night as if to say 'this man isn't fit to have the presidential seal on his office/spaceship.' --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 13:18, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::I'd prefer to eschew the fanwankery and note it as the continuity glitch it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:28, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== 6's credits voiceover ==
Should it be part of this episode? It seems that there is no discussion of it here or anywhere else. -- [[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 14:426, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:That was a commercial for Season 3, not part of this episode. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 13:54, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Firefly connection ==

Greenleaf and Persephone; both were planets in Firefly. I noticed the Greenleaf back in Sacrifice, but this episode was the first time that I saw or heard Persephone. It's a nice little homage to Firefly, if it was even on purpose. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 15:20, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-03-12T18:07:53Z

FIDS: /* The Chief? */

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::Katee Sackhoff mentioned in an interview that Starbuck had known Boomer for 7 years. That would mean 2 years on Galactica and 5 years of training before that, which makes sense as realisitically not even the Cylons could sneak an agent into the military without any training period. It's much harder than creating a civilian ID, and probably the reason why Boomer had to be a sleeper agent. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:54, 2 March 2006 (EST)
:::::This could have just been subject to change. --00:43, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)

== Apollo's Entry ==

Is it permissible to post a link to fanfiction? --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]]

: Permissible, possibly. But will it be helpful at all? The Lee-Is-A-Cylon thing is, as I understand it, perpetuated almost entirely by fanfiction. Except that a decent sized group of BSG (RDM) fans like this idea, we'd have thrown Lee off the list a long time ago because we can attest to the fact that he has a father. Linking the fiction would, I think, make it easy for a casual reading to misconstrue a case for Lee's being a Cylon as anything more than ver, very weak. Also... for ease of reading, please try to remember to sign your posts. Easy mistake to make. Just keep it in mind. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:Under ''no'' circumstances is it permissible; didn't the section on Apollo make the point that BattlestarWiki does not support such things? Honestly; 20 people make a Apollo-as-Cylon fanfic, then post links to it ''endlessly'' on the poorly-moderated official messageboards. This matter should be dropped. I am sorry, but on this matter there is no question. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:45, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Given that it was a back and forth conversation, to which he gave no refusal in reply, at the time at least, this gave the impression of tacit admission of the terms. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:45, 25 February 2006 (EST)

The wager is not changed, but you came very close to losing it in "Downloaded." Nor, however, has any proof been revealed in this episode that negates the possibility of Baltar as a Cylon. In fact, since ''only'' Baltar and Six have appeared as virtual beings, this actually ''reinforces,'' not diminishes the possibility since, to this episode, only a Cylon image has appeared this way. Since ''both'' Baltar and Six appear as virtual beings to each other, AND this phenomena is obviously not known or planned for by the Cylons, this doesn't change the nature of what Baltar is or is not (or, by extension, Six). The results from "Downloaded" DO invalidate some of the postulations in the Gaius-the-Cylon speculation, which I will note when I can. When humans and Cylons are in love, things get weird. Note that this hasn't happened with Boomer and Tyrol, but maybe, maybe, their love was not complete enough to create this strange exchange of "love echo." Oh, and for two beings to have the ''exact'' kind of "hallucination" suggests that it is not an hallucination at all. Something else is going on. Peter's point on Baltar's lack of note by other Cylons, however, does have a point, of which I will chew on before commenting further. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:But if Baltar was a Cylon, than why was Six-Baltar pushing for the "human agenda" and talking about how bad it was that millions of humans were killed? --[[User:Mojorising1985|mojorisng1985]] 18:04, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::It was her impression of Baltar (whom she thinks is human). (I think this whole line of speculation is absolutely ludicrous, by the way; but that question really doesn't change anything.) --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:21, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed, this is absolutely nuts. From an in-continuity perspective, the only way Baltar could ''possibly'' be a Cylon as of this episode would be if neither Caprica-Six, Galactica-Valerii, or Caprica-Three knew about it. Caprica-Three appeared to be very high-ranking - she apparently has the authority to have other cylons "boxed", and she knew that Baltar was still alive - something that was not public knowlege. From a dramatic perspective, it's completely impossible, and would invalidate the last two seasons worth of character development. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:51, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:"We're two heroes of the cylon, right? Two heroes with different perspectives on the war. Perspectives based by our love of two human beings". Cylons, talking amongst themselves, refer to Baltar as a human being in the episode "Downloaded". This alone is quite a good piece of evidence. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:46, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::OK, the damage done to Baltar's speculation is nearly complete, but I do not fully concede. I've clarified the information from "Downloaded" but added one important matter: Since the virtual Six and Baltar are not a Cylon creation, where in the world do they come from, and why doesn't Tyrol have a virtual Boomer? Until more information comes out, its my last shot in this salvo that still leaves a thread of doubt. We'll need to condense Baltar's entry later since many concepts there appear invalidated or contradictory to aired content. Oh, and just because the two Cylons believed they were in love with two humans doesn't make it patently true. What did Baltar think ''he'' was shagging before Six's revelation? The writers twist and turn, and I don't believe we're done with this, but yep, my ship is sinking, although not sunk, and I'm still armed with name-calling, a claim that you smell of elderberries, and flatulence in your general direction. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:34, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Additional Qualifier for Speculation? ==

"According to Ron D. Moore, the twelve humanoid models are based on human behavior and personality archetypes distilled into twelve varieties."

It would seem, then, that any new Cylon agents will also need to have reasonably archetypal personalities that are notably different from known agents.
--[[User:Mckooper|Mckooper]] 14:24, 6 March 2006 (CST)
:Very true. Good thinking. Personally I find Billy to be too much like Doral.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:31, 6 March (EST)

:: This is my main arguement against Ellen Tigh being a Cylon. She's the same, archetypally, as Six, basically: The attractive, sexually agressive blonde. I'm waiting for model, let's say, Number 12: The Nerd. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:30, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Lay Down Your Burdens ==

Wouldn't the Season Finale exonerate Ellen, the Adamas and Gaeta? There were dozens of Centurions marching through that city. Surely if Ellen were a Cylon, she would have simply joined in the parade as a matter of pride? The Adamas wouldn't have jumped away of either of them were Cylons. And if Gaeta were a Cylon, wouldn't he have simply dropped the charade when he told Baltar they had arrived? [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 11:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Even in German-occupied France in World War II, the Gestapo still had spies pretending to be French to try to infiltrate any resistance. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:07, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and we have no particular reason to believe that conquering New Caprica is the end goal for the Cylons; this may only be a push to guide them in a different direction, in which the hidden agents still have a role to play. That said, I do wonder what new human models we'll see on New Caprica. My guess is that at least one will be of the same type as someone in Adama's fleet. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 13:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== The Chief? ==

What about the chief? Should someone add something for him? Cavil... who was later revealed to be a Cylon, said that he hadn't seen him at any of the cylon parties, the same thing six said about doral. Plus, he kept on wondering why Tyrol couldn't see what was "right in front of his face". And he said "I'm not a Cylon", just like Boomer did in the season 1 finale. It might at least be a possibility. Finally, Cally's pregnancy might be an attempt at creating something similar to Helo/Boomer's child, but with the gender reversed... to see if a Cylon could impregnate a human female. Indeed, that was my intital thought when I accidentally stumbled across pictures of Cally pregnant.

Nah, Tyrol can't be a Cylon. That doesn't fit the Cylon M.O. of trying to make a baby. Remember that Tyrol was with Sharon before, and that they were planing to "Muster out at the end of their service," and get married and have kids, ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 12:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Downloaded/Archive 1

2006-03-12T01:08:11Z

FIDS: /* Cylon Models Present on Caprica */

If this episode has been dropped so Resurrection can be split into two, then aren't we still missing an episode? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 00:06, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:Yes. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:14, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:: I've heard new rumors that this ISN'T the Cylon POV episode; that this episode covers the fate of Galactica-Sharon, but the "totally" Cylon POV episode was another one entirely. There may be hope yet. Besides, I think at the least Lawless has actually filmed scenes for it; I don't know if the one that was scrapped ever went past script phase.

:::RDM says in the downloaded that this '''is''' the cylon POV episode. Plus, theres no time left for one this season, the season finale starts next week. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 17:52, 26 February 2006 (EST)

However, new developments: I got a link to a scan of the February edition of Scifi Magazine, in which they answer questions from the official messageboard: http://pics.livejournal.com/reedfem/pic/0008a1hf ---->I can't tell if Grace Park is being SARCASTIC or if she was serious. (BTW, like 5 of these questions are from me, notably the Blade Runner one, the Geena Davis one, and the "new evil Sharon?" one). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:51, 5 December 2005 (EST)
::For those interested, the full set of scans can be found here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/reedfem/158883.html?page=1 --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:34, 5 December 2005 (EST)

Hmm, I'm pretty sure I saw a copy of Simon in the cafe on Caprica. I'm removing the "possibly archival footage" thing. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:24, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:They're saying it was a body double on TWOP. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:27, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::It's possible it might have been a different actor. What does TWOP stand for? --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:35, 24 February 2006 (EST)

This episode was very good. I have one problem with it: Not Enough Leoben Conoy. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:37, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yeah, I was suprised we didn't see him on Caprica. I mean, they even had Simon (or at least who I believe is Simon).

:Someone claimed Leoben was on Caprica: where? I did not see him, though I will rewatch it. I will delete this info until it can be confirmed. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:58, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::You're totally right... he wasn't there. Not sure why, but he wasn't. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 01:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::The TWOPers found a body double wearing his miniseries costume [http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/9672/cap0118pd.png here]. ([http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showtopic=3136156&view=findpost&p=4607381 link to post]) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:14, 25 February 2006 (EST)
*He was there. He walked by 6 several times, and was sitting in the cafe. You don't see his face because they couldn't get the actor. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 01:15, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Blade Runner reference
I about fell off the couch when the cylons were referred to as "skin jobs"--George w chomsky

:Trust me, they know that we know. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:16, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Is it really Apollo in the picture of the Galactica crew that Sharon holds in her appartment? Because it's so small I can't be sure. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 05:30, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Can we get Roslin's "if I wanted to airlock a baby..." comment in the dialogue section? (both for its hilarity and the likelihood of it coming up later) I'd do it myself but I don't have a tape for the exact wording. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 14:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:Added that quote. Maybe these two questions should be added as well, but I'd like to know how others think about it: - Why did Roslin eventually decide to have the baby adopted instead of killing it? Why Was Baltar not notified of the baby being kept alive? Roslin never shared her suspicions of Baltar being a Cylon sympathizer. Were Admiral Adama and Col. Tigh even notified of this? --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 16:26, 25 February 2006 (EST)
:Check the Analysis sections: Roslin has no real "evidence" against Baltar, so she's not going to bring her suspicions into the open yet. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:48, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::That's my point, really. Roslin didn't even inform her vice-president. Even if she's doing it because of the presidential elections it wouldn't make sense, because Baltar seems opposed to abortion (and so he could use the accusation of Roslin being a baby killer against her).... --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 06:01, 26 February 2006 (EST)
:::Actually, I think Roslin didn't tell Baltar far more because she suspects he's involved with the Cylons, than because she's worried about the election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:59, 2 March 2006 (CST)

After viewing the episode I have one serious question, where did they get a "fake" baby to fool Sharon 2 and Helo? A parent would notice if the body wasn't their own child. While a friend of mine suggested body used was resultant of the offscreen abortion from "The Captains Hand", this wouldn't work, as that fetus was only 4 months along, and would have been far less developed, and only 1/3rd the size (approx.) of baby Hera. Is their a master Wax Sculpter somewhere in the fleet?--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

:I don't think there's a canonical answer yet (and there may never be one). Some people have speculated that they use the baby of Hera's new adoptive mother (who mentioned that she had recently lost a child). At any rate, I think at this point they're all guesses (though the [[fumarella leaf]] origami theory hasn't gained much headway recently). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:22, 2 March 2006 (CST)

==Lucy Lawless character's name==
Last episode, she was "D'Anna Biers"; this episode we find out that her Cylon name is "Number Three". In dialog, she actually constantly refers to herself as "Three" "Number Three", etc. (well, they don't actually say "Number" aloud, but still). The scifi.com episode guide credits her for "Downloaded" as "D'Anna" but I think that's just miscommunication/they're easing into calling her "Number Three". Either way, I think we here on the wiki consider her "Number Three" now more because A) it is cooler, B) individual Cylons can have fake human names, but this refers to the individual, not the model. I.e. "Galactica-Three" = D'anna, but other Threes do not. Thoughts?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:42, 2 March 2006 (CST)
: I see you noticed my change. :) My thought on this was that we should refer to the specific character (i.e. the model with Galactica's fleet) as D'anna. ALl others should be Three or Number Three (the single number would bemore preferable). I liked how in the beginning of the episode synopsis she is referred to by her "D'anna" guise, but as soon as we find out her model number, she's referred to by that exclusively. It lets our reader know that THIS was the moment of change. [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 14:53, 2 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, that's what I intended when I wrote it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:55, 2 March 2006 (CST)
:::An excellent plan... [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 15:00, 2 March 2006 (CST)

== Cars inside the parking lot ==

About the cars parked on the building, one of them is a DS, of course, but I think that the one that is seen on the left when you see the parking the first time is a Citroen SM. You can compere the car on the movie (21:15 inside the chapter, without commercials) with this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_P6 and this other http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroen_SM. As you can see, P6 wing is narrower on the side that is close to the front door. Front doors of both cars are very similar, of course. There is another car at the right of the DS, parked in a shadow zone, that could be the P6, but I'm not sure. you can have a better look at it at 24:48. About the 3 headlamp thingie (4 cars parked there?) I don't remember to have seen it on the citroen prototype pictures I have seen (you can see a lot of them at http://62.95.94.132/gallery/Citroen-Conservatoire). Front side of the car looks like VW Beetle. Of course there was a Citroen 2CV prototype with central headlamp, but it has only one headlamp, not three. --[[User:citroengs|Joaquin Gallardo]] 0:43, 3 March 2006 (CET)

The 3 headlamp vehicle seems most likely to ba a Tatra 87 as displayed here:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatra_(car)

== Sharon is handcuffed to the resurrection tub ==

Did you notice that sharon is actually handcuffed to the resurrection tub, while number six is not?--Thomask77
:Yes, most likely because Sharon was a sleeper agent and they thought she'd take the shock of downloading and being a Cylon a little bad....which, what with all the screaming, is exactly what happened. She could have done more danage if not restrained. Makes sense entirely, not a goof.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:58, 3 March 2006 (CST)

==Cylons and Age==
Philwelch writes:
:Based on the assumption that model number corresponds with age, Leoben Conoy — whose age is close to that of D'anna Biers — is probably Number Two or Number Four, while Simon is likely either Number Four or Number Seven.

I removed this because I don't consider this a productive or interesting line of questioning - we just don't have enough data to make that age assumption. If it turns at that Brother Cyvill is #2 or something, then your argument would be bolstered enough to revisit (in my opinion), but at present, we really have no reason to believe it. Cylon copies are clearly created fully grown anyway - if they wanted to make a copy of #11 as an old man, it stands to reason that they could do it just as easily as making #6 a fully grown woman. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:31, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:The idea of Cylon model number corresponding with apparent age isn't anything I made up, it's plainly in the Analysis section already. If we already have that idea in the Analysis, I see no reason *not* to use it for further speculation. You're being inconsistent. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:50, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:As for "not enough data", as the Analysis says, Number Three is apparently older than Number Five, who appears older than Number Six, who appears older than Number Eight. That's four confirming data points. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:55, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::They are all fairly young, in their 20s and 30s. This does not indicate a strong correlation to me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:52, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::And what if TPTB completely go against this speculative convention and cast a teenager as Number Two, or cast someone Dr. Cottle's age (or, worse, Dr. Cottle!) as Number Ten? Where will your theory stand? I don't see the Article Page as being the locale for speculation and conjecture... that's what this Talk page is for. Let the series unravel as the writers write it, and let's take it in enjoyably, rather than galavanting off on theories that are tentatively founded at best, and the writers are under no obligation to uphold. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:48, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::If we're not allowed to speculate, than let's go back and delete most of the Analysis and Questions sections. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 14:59, 5 March 2006 (CST)

: I think people are forgetting that we are talking about ''Cylons'' here, not humans. Age has nothing to do with it; being as that may, I honestly doubt the Cylons have a gerontocracy here. It is far more likely that the whole number scheme is what model was first off the production line, which makes logical sense from the Cylon POV. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:27, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::There's still *apparent* age--Boomer appears to be a 22-24 year old woman while Leoben Conoy appears to be in his late 30's. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:38, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::That doesn't make any difference at all. In fact, the actor who portrays Leoben Conoy (Number ?a) is the oldest of the KCA (Known Cylon Agents) at 45/46. The actor portraying Simon (Number ?b) is 38/39... and just months older than Lucy Lawless at 37/38 (and Lucy Lawless has a bod & appearance that can put most 22-year-olds to shame). So, based on your theory, that ''forces'' the storyline to put Leoben Conoy at Number 2 (or 1) and Simon at ... wow. Will you look at that? Where ''do'' you put Simon in this, based on the idea that he's older than Number 3?
:::I'm not saying that you're/we're ''not allowed'' to speculate, I'm just of the emphatic opinion that it's counterproductive and unnecessary. This isn't "our" series, it's the writers' series, to do with as they warrant. I don't think half of the Analysis and Questions material on the episode pages should be there, but the moderators of this Wiki feel it should be there, so who am I to defy them? The basis of the Wiki is to make sure the information is '''''right''''', not who is right first, whether in speculation or fact. And, the only source of "right-ness" is the writers... and they don't feel it necessary to divulge this information yet. No amount of speculation, conjecture, or deduction on our parts is going to change that. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:11, 6 March 2006 (CST)

== Cylon Models Present on Caprica ==

I removed the following entry/question from the Question section:
: Why does Caprica only have 4 cylon models on it? Would you not expect all 12 models to be cohabitating the planet?

Firstly, the question in and of itself is incorrect, because there are 5 models seen (in fact, RDM insinuates that all 6 models are visible by using computer-generated-effects projections and composites of the two actors who could not be in attendance for the episode's shooting). Secondly, RDM goes into great length to explain that it would incise into the storyline's drama and tension to reveal the other six models of Cylon on Caprica. He concedes that it doesn't make much sense to ''not'' see all twelve models, but that it is ultimately a writer's/producer's decision for the good of the story/show. Thirdly, and with that point in mind, it is not our place to explain or conject why the other six models are not present — it might be revealed later in following episodes, or it may never be — since any answer on our parts is either unfounded, speculative, or flat-out wrong. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:37, 6 March 2006 (CST)

I noticed in the background a white male, with a bald head. As we do not currently know of a Cylon that is bald this adds a little bit of possible speculation. Just something to think about. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 23:03, 10 March 2006 (CST)

No, that was just bad lighting/glare.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:04, 10 March 2006 (CST)

You sure about that? Hmmm, I'll have to watch the episode again, and pay more closer attention. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 00:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)

I just listened to the podcast for "Downloaded," Ron Moore confirms that it's a Simon (whichever number that is). --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 19:08, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Count ==

I noticed the survior count has not increased at all in either this episode or Lay Down your Burdens Part I. What's up with the baby? She doesn't count?
:Cylon's don't get counted, as has been previously established, and everyone but Helo and Baltar clearly consider the baby a Cylon.--[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 16:25, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Downloaded/Archive 1

2006-03-11T06:02:53Z

FIDS: /* Cylon Models Present on Caprica */

Talk:Downloaded/Archive 1

2006-03-11T05:03:41Z

FIDS: /* Cylon Models Present on Caprica */

Greenleaf

2006-03-09T18:04:25Z

FIDS: Arbinell to Abinell

The '''''Greenleaf''''' is a freighter in [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]], on which [[Asha Janik]] worked in maintenance before working in ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica's]]'' ammunition assembly shop ([[Epiphanies]]).

The ''Greenleaf'' is attacked by [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]], resulting in the death of [[Ray Abinell]], husband of [[Sesha Abinell]]. Ten weeks later, an angry Sesha Abinell leads a terrorist plot by taking [[Lee Adama]] and others hostage aboard ''[[Cloud 9]]'', demanding the destruction of a copy of [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|a Cylon agent]] held aboard ''Galactica'' ([[Sacrifice]]).

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: Colonial Craft]]
[[Category: RDM]]
[[Category: Mentioned-Only]]

Raptor 1

2006-03-09T17:57:56Z

FIDS: /* Deceased */ added descriptions

'''Raptor 1''' was the designation of the lead [[Raptor]] in a scout party dispatched to [[Kobol]] by [[Battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]'' in the episode [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]].

"Raptor 1" was also the designation of the lead Raptor of the [[SAR]] party deployed in [[Fragged]], and another Raptor in "[[Home, Part II]]".

== Incident ==

After entering Kobol's orbit, a phalanx of [[Cylon Raiders]] happened upon them suddenly. [[Raptor 3]] was destroyed in orbit via collision with a Raider, [[Raptor 275|Raptor 2]] left via [[FTL]] to ''Galactica'', and Raptor 1 was damaged as a result of the fracas - shot once, sending it into an uncontrolled counter-clockwise spin, and then a second time, breaching the crew cabin and killing the pilot, [[Karma]].

[[Crashdown]] managed to ditch near an overgrown field, near [[City of the Gods|ruins]] presumed to be from humanity pre-Exodus. During the crash, [[Socinus]] was badly burned, but the remaining six survived relatively unscathed. The survivors took cover in a nearby forest, but [[Tarn]] was gunned down by Cylon ground forces while retrieving a medical kit lost in the confusion. [[Socinus]] succumbed to his injuries shortly thereafter, and was euthanized by [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]].

After burying the two, the remaining five observed [[Cylon Centurion]]s constructing a [[DRADIS]] dish and missile battery to intercept Galactica's [[SAR]] party. Crashdown formulated a plan to take out the Cylon forces, but was killed by [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] after drawing a gun on [[Cally]] when the plan went awry.

The SAR party managed to evade the Cylon missiles and rescue the four survivors.

== Occupants ==

Raptor 1 was composed of eight crew persons.

=== Surviving ===

* Vice President [[Gaius Baltar]]
* Specialist [[Cally]]
* CPO [[Galen Tyrol]] - shot in right arm
* Deckhand [[Seelix]] - shot in right leg

=== Deceased ===

* [[Karma]]: KIA prior to crashlanding ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]])
* [[Tarn]]: KIA from a Cylon ambush ([[Scattered]])
* Specialist [[Socinus]]: died from pulmonary edema and deliberate [[morpha]] overdose ([[Valley of Darkness]])
* [[Crashdown]]: KIA from a shot in the back from Dr. Baltar ([[Fragged]])

[[Category: A to Z]] [[Category: Colonial Craft]] [[Category: Raptors|1]] [[Category: RDM]]

Talk:Sacrifice/Archive 1

2006-03-09T12:27:31Z

FIDS: /* I noticed something that might be important, probably not though. */

Scifi.com is now calling this episode "Sacrifices", plural. Could this be a typo (it's only on one page), or is the name actually different? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:24, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:Moore called it "Sacrifice" in the singular in the podcast. Let's leave it be until Friday. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:25, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::As do all other textual references on the site. Must have been a typo. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:10, 10 February 2006 (EST)

Good job on this page all, It takes a lot to impress me, and I think you guys did well......... Wow a blue car!
[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 21:43, 12 February 2006 (EST)

== Not that this has any bearing... ==

But the death of Billy was really sad. Billy was a great chaecter. I was hoping just for shots that skinned him; Not kill him. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 00:08, 14 February 2006 (EST)

No. Billy became a bad character, through lack of use. By this point in the series, past the end of season 1, he had gotten so little to do that it wasn't worth counting him amongst the main cast. Frankly, RDM did the right thing by killing him off, thus giving him a fitting sendoff rather than let him become painfully boring (a problem encountered on later Star Treks alot). I was happy to see him go, while I also felt that it was a good death scene.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 16:24, 14 February 2006 (EST)
: Maybe... :( It was good death scene. No showing of him dieing in the lounge, but just showing up in the morge. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 14:11, 15 February 2006 (EST)

It may be worth putting a little paragraph or two in the notes section describing the circumstances surrounding the lack of use of the character (i.e that the actor was being offered other series or pilots). The RDM podcast sums it up pretty well. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 19:05, 14 February 2006 (EST)

I ''assume'' that could go in "Analysis" instead of notes--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:19, 14 February 2006 (EST)

== I noticed something that might be important, probably not though. ==

Did anyone else notice that one of the terrorists was the same actor that played the captain in [[Flesh and Bone]]. If this wasn't just a casting mistake than it means one of two things; one, that the captain of the [[Gemenon Traveller]] is dead now (this one doesn't really mean very much except that he's dead), and two that the captain of the Gemenon Traveller is not dead and that was infact another copy of him and he is a Cylon. I'll be the first one to say how unconceivable this is just by the fact that both episodes involved a cylon. It would stand to reason that the cylons wouldn't have more than one sleeper agent of each model so as to avoid confusion and suspicion. So with that in mind no more than one of the "Eric Breker" cylons (that's the actor in both episodes) could be a sleeper agent, and my money would be on the Gemenon Traveller captain. Anyways, that's my peice, it's in your court now. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 02:49, 6 March 2006 (CST)

I don't think this is important. They've just using the same pool of minor actors from around Vancouver. Happens all the time. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:02, 6 March 2006 (CST)

Yeah, that's what I figured. Doesn't hurt to keep an eye out, though. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 06:27, 9 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Sacrifice/Archive 1

2006-03-06T08:49:28Z

FIDS: I noticed something that might be important, probably not though.