Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

User talk:Shane

2007-10-06T05:13:31Z

Durandal: New section: ArchiveBot

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== ArchiveBot ==

Is there any way we can keep the archivebot edits from registering as page-changes? Half of the messages I get from the wiki are references to it's actions, which, actually, I don't mind, except for the fact that it farks with my watch list, which means I have to hit the page in question to reset the watch notifications. Can we find a way around that? ~~ [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 00:13, 6 October 2007 (CDT)

Messengers

2007-09-11T15:49:09Z

Durandal: /* Baltar's Virtual Six */ Corrected typographical error which would inspire juvenile jokes of all kinds

[[image:Tigh_Me_Up_Tigh_Me_Down-Baltar_Six.jpg|thumb|The virtual Six and Gaius Baltar in his lab aboard ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''.]]

'''Virtual beings'''<ref>{{bsgwiki term}}</ref> denote the curious virtual images seen by [[Gaius Baltar]] and [[Caprica-Six]].

The Season 3 episode "[[Torn]]" establishes the [[humanoid Cylon]] visualization process known as [[projection]]. In the [[Miniseries]] and Season 1, before the term "projection" was introduced, the character of [[Gaius Baltar]] has frequent visions of an image of his Cylon love interest from Caprica, now known as [[Caprica-Six]].

After her [[Resurrection (RDM)|resurrection]] from the Caprica mission, Caprica-Six herself is haunted by a virtual image of Gaius Baltar.

Neither character has revealed the presence of these images to each other or any other character as of the episode "[[The Woman King]]" (where the virtual Baltar makes an appearance).

The personality of each image is often represented in the clothing that they wear. Virtual Six often appears in a revealing red dress, and the virtual Baltar appears in a pinstriped suit, apparently custom-tailored ([[Miniseries]], "[[Downloaded]]").

Each personality is not a copy of the original character's personality, but generally behaves as a militant version of the original. The Virtual Six espouses Cylon philosophy and [[Cylon Religion|religion]] in a zealous, unwavering manner. Likewise, the virtual Baltar often criticizes Caprica-Six when she attempts to rationalize the destruction of the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]] or other Cylon motivations. Both personalities tend to sway its actual opposite to side with their philosophy: For virtual Baltar, the need to become more human (and, like the actual Baltar himself, selfish); for virtual Six, worship of the Cylon [[God (RDM)|God]] and distancing Baltar from any opportunity to give support to the Colonial causes.

The purpose and origins of the visions experienced by Baltar and Caprica-Six have not been disclosed in aired episodes.

==Baltar's Virtual Six==
Baltar's virtual Six first appears as he escapes the destroyed world of [[Caprica (RDM)|Caprica]] on [[Sharon Valerii]]'s [[Raptor]] ([[Miniseries, Night 1]]).

[[Image:brainscan.jpg|left|thumb|Baltar receives his brain scan from Dr. [[Cottle]], as his virtual Six looks on in amusement.]]
Baltar initially believes that the virtual Six is a hallucination in its first few weeks of appearances, but later believes the virtual Six's initial suggestion that she is generated from a Cylon cybernetic implant. He disproves this notion when Doctor [[Cottle]] gives him a brain scan ([[Downloaded]]).

Baltar's virtual Six is aware of events, people and places that Baltar does not appear to know consciously. She tells him of a [[Cylon transponder]] hidden in ''Galactica's'' [[CIC]], and appears to aid him in his conversion from Colonial polytheism to Cylon monotheism through guiding him in how to destroy a Cylon [[tylium]] refinery ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]). The source for virtual Six's data is unclear.

[[image:KobolHallu.jpg|right|thumb|Virtual Six and Baltar on Kobol.]]
Baltar's visions of Six not only have the Cylon appearing with him on ''[[Galactica]]'', but the two also envision themselves in Baltar's now-destroyed home, on the beach, and other locales. The virtual Six projection seems to be able to force Baltar to see additional items in his environment, such as the human skulls on [[Kobol (RDM)|Kobol]] as well as visions of the interior of the ancient [[Opera House]] and an image of what virtual Six believes to be a Cylon-human hybrid child. When an [[Hera Agathon|actual child]] does appear in the Fleet, the virtual Six claims it is her vision fulfilled ([[Downloaded]]).

Over time, Baltar is seen by some characters speaking to himself, which is often the case when he is speaking to Virtual Six. In several instances, the virtual Six appears to Baltar to be a physical entity, grabbing him by his clothes or body, or assisting him with objects ("[[Six Degrees of Separation]]", "[[Taking A Break From All Your Worries]]").

The virtual Six has been present when Caprica-Six is near only twice. The virtual Six seems to, for the most part, vanish during the period when Caprica-Six and Baltar renew their relationship on New Caprica. When Baltar is aboard a Cylon basestar, Caprica-Six explains the projection process to him while the virtual Six hints that this process is very similar to how she and Baltar communicate and that Baltar may himself be a Cylon ([[Torn]]). Virtual Six also appears to Baltar, when he discovers Hera under Maya's dead body and disappears when the real Number Six comes near Baltar and the baby ([[Exodus, Part II]]).

Virtual Six has a [[Music of Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|musical theme]], a simple 9-note motif with a staccato xylophone and some violins, which plays behind almost all her appearances. This theme also plays without Six present in "[[Rapture]]" after [[D'Anna Biers]] collapses in Baltar's arms after her vision of the [[Final Five]], until Baltar is clubbed by [[Galen Tyrol]].

From the end of Season 2 on, the virtual Six claims more often to be an angel from [[God (RDM)|God]].

==Caprica-Six's Virtual Baltar==
[[image:LBlt.jpg|thumb|left|Turnabout is fair play: Caprica-Six, the virtual Baltar and an actual [[Number Three]]]]

When a ''virtual Gaius Baltar'' appears to Caprica-Six in "Downloaded", the notion that the actual Gaius Baltar was part of a Cylon plan to manipulate him via the virtual Six is revealed to be highly unlikely, as other Cylons are unaware of him and do not mention the plan or its effects to Caprica-Six.

The virtual Baltar's appearance and demeanor is just as much an extreme opposite of the actual Baltar as the virtual Six's behavior is to Caprica-Six.

At her resurrection, the virtual Baltar immediately tells Caprica-Six that only she can see and hear him, and not to reveal what she sees to the other Cylons present. The virtual Baltar is never asked by Caprica-Six about his origins.

The virtual Baltar confronts Caprica-Six with her guilt in the slaughter of billions of human beings, and with the logical error behind the Cylons' actions. Under the influence of the virtual Baltar, Caprica-Six speaks out against the war alongside another resurrected "[[hero of the Cylon]]", [[Sharon Valerii]]. The two forge a new [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II|quasi-benevolent path]], [[Exodus, Part II|albeit temporarily]], for the Cylon race.

The revelation in "[[Torn]]" about the Cylons' projecting abilities suggests that the virtual Baltar is generated by Caprica-Six's own projection ability. Since the actual Baltar is not confirmed as a Cylon, the origins of his virtual Six are questioned by Dr. Baltar himself during the revelation of the principles of projection.

The virtual Baltar appears irregularly in seasons 2 and 3. In "[[The Woman King]]", Caprica-Six is observed by [[Laura Roslin]] and [[Tory Foster]] as Caprica-Six speaks and kisses the virtual Baltar, who is, of course, invisible to Roslin and Foster.

While Baltar's virtual Six claims to be an angel sent from God, Six's virtual Baltar seems to be contemptuous of the Cylons' concept of God ([[Downloaded]]). He is also described by [[Ronald D. Moore|Ron Moore]] as more of a "devil" figure in Six's consciousness<ref>{{cite_rdm_podcast|episode=Downloaded|act=Three|id=|timestamp=|totalrunning=}}</ref>.

While the virtual Baltar acts mostly as a conversational foil for Six, in "[[Crossroads, Part I]]" he informs her that [[Saul Tigh]] has suffered the loss of a woman close to him, to assist Six in dealing with the interrogation by Tigh. It is uncertain how he or she obtained this information.

==Notes==

*The [[virtual Leoben|virtual "Leoben"]] that appears to [[Kara Thrace]] in the episode "[[Maelstrom]]" only appears to her in a vision while the pilot is unconscious. Since this virtual Leoben is not in fact a Cylon but another unknown entity, it is not appropriate to count it as a virtual being akin to the virtual Six and Baltar.

*The returned Kara Thrace, who appears to [[Lee Adama]] at the conclusion of "[[Crossroads, Part II]]", is also ''not'' a virtual being.<ref name="ign-sackhoff">{{cite_web|url=http://tv.ign.com/articles/797/797776p1.html|title=Katee Sackhoff Talks Battlestar and Bionic Woman|date=19 June 2007|accessdate=21 June 2007|last=Goldman|first=Eric|format=|language=}}</ref>

*[[William Adama]] sees and converses with his [[Carolanne Adama|deceased ex-wife]] each year on their anniversary as demonstrated in "[[A Day in the Life]]". While the episode where this occurs shows Bill and Carolanne together in places and settings (ostensibly at their home on [[Caprica (RDM)|Caprica]]), this is a dramatic representation of Bill's ordinary imagination of what Carolanne may have thought about his predicament. As such, the visualizations of Carolanne Adama are not a virtual being similar to those above.

*When asked by a fan at a convention about the differences between this Baltar and the real Baltar, actor [[James Callis]] described Six’s Baltar as a man who “finally has his shit together.”<ref>{{cite_web|url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNZZHl0Ls5U&mode=related&search=|title=James Callis (Gaius Baltar) Q&A FanExpo 2k6 - Part 3|date=September 04, 2006|accessdate=January 24, 2007|last=|first=|format=YouTube video|language=English}}</ref>. ('''Warning''': Video contains some explicit language)

* Callis mentioned at the same convention that his personal theory is that Baltar's internal Six is a being from another universe or higher plane of existence who only Baltar can interact with. This may relate back to the "angel" theory <ref>{{cite_web|url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNZZHl0Ls5U&mode=related&search=|title=James Callis (Gaius Baltar) Q&A FanExpo 2k6 - Part 3|date=September 04, 2006|accessdate=January 24, 2007|last=|first=|format=YouTube video|language=English}}</ref>. ('''Warning''': Video contains some explicit language)

* Actress [[Tricia Helfer]] has said that she has long since given up on trying to figure out just what Baltar's internal Six is. <ref>{{cite_web|url=http://tv.ign.com/articles/756/756477p1.html|title=IGN Interview: Battlestar Galactica's Tricia Helfer|date=January 18, 2007|accessdate=January 24, 2007|last=|first=|format=|language=English}}</ref> She believes Caprica-Six and Baltar both having internal counterparts is related to the scene from the [[Miniseries]] where she saves Baltar from the shock wave of the nuclear bomb that destroyed [[Caprica City]].

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:Descriptive terms]]
[[Category:RDM]]
{{featured article candidate previous}}

Battlestar Wiki talk:Think Tank/Video Ext

2007-09-01T19:49:18Z

Durandal: +1

* Date Started: {{dateahead|{{JD|2007|03 |8}}|0}}
* Date Ending: {{dateahead|{{JD|2007|03 |8}}|7}}

[[Category:Ideas currently under voting status|{{PAGENAME}}]]


Instructions: Use <nowiki>{{Support}}, {{Oppose}}, {{Abstain}}, and {{Neutral}}</nowiki>, supported by a reason and appropriately signed using the four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>).

Other users are encouraged to vote as well, simply use {{tl|vote}} to add your vote. Refer to [[Template:Vote]] for complete instructions.

# [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin Jr.]] - {{support}} As Serenity said, we should be careful to not overload pages with video content. But this would be great to have for some pages, such as the [[Season 3 gag reel]] and the [[BSG Rap]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:46, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
# [[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] - {{Abstain}}. Automatic [[Battlestar Wiki:Leave of Absence|leave of absence]] due to inactivity.
# [[User:Day|Day]] - {{Abstain}}. Automatic [[Battlestar Wiki:Leave of Absence|leave of absence]] due to inactivity.
# [[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] - {{Support}} With the caveat that a strict policy should be developed for where, how and when to use video.
# [[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] - {{support}} I wrote it... so yes. hehe --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 10:28, 8 March 2007 (CST)
# [[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] - {{oppose}}. We should not mingle advertising with site content. It should be perfectly adequate to serve video files in some industry standard format such as MPEG-4. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:42, 8 March 2007 (CST)
#* {{comment}} - FLV is becoming more and more popular on the internet and can be viewed by 97.3% of Web browsers (according to independant analysts) and its probably even higher now with the popularity of Youtube and Google video. Many large traditional media websites such as Scifi.com, the BBC and Reuters are increasingly using the format as it enables easy streaming for a large number of people with nothing new to download or install unlike mpeg or avi files with various compression codecs. You can embed a flv movie with no extra plugins needed and protect it from people stealing the file to use on their own sites without permission. embedding flash is also compliant with w3c unlike the code used to make other videos work in all browsers. Its my personal opinion that this gives us maximum flexability to show video to the users of the wiki while getting income as compensation for the costs in providing it. Ads only appear on rollover and at the end and are only in text form. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 03:31, 9 March 2007 (CST)
#**{{comment}} The advertising experience is obnoxious and unnecessary - videos should be presented in roughly the same way that we currently present still images. My point about separation of advertising from content stands. The user-base advantages you cite for FLV are valid, but the fact remains that it is not an open standard. Playback issues on Linux are abundant, and while the Mac version of the Flash player has recently improved to useable performance levels, the poor maintainence history on that platform should not be quickly forgotten. Additionally, the dearth of freely available authoring tools compared to other formats should be taken very seriously. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:45, 9 March 2007 (CST)
#*** {{comment}} I know FLV is not an open standard (I'm for open standards myself as well), but FLVs play well on Linux these days. I run Linux myself, and Firefox plays YouTube videos quite happily. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 15:56, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
# [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] - {{support}} Oh, somehow missed this, so I'm late. I'm not to keen in video ads, but flash videos could enhance some articles. We just need be careful that they are well chosen and not overused. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:01, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
# [[User:Shane|Shane]] - {{support}} [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:53, 8 March 2007 (CST)
# [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] -{{neutral}}. Anything that improves the content of the wiki is good. Anything that detracts from an article's factual objectives (including the distracting nature of some video, Flash and other animations) is bad. Anything that taxes the overall objectives to provide a fast wiki is also bad. We just got this server system up to some power. Use video, but carefully. And ''what'' are we going to host? Copyright concerns? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:52, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
# [[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] - {{support}} I support engaging the audience on all fronts. Soon we'll have them completely surrounded. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:04, 30 April 2007 (CDT)
# [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] - {{Neutral}} - per Spencerian and Peter Farago, and also per Serenity and FrankieG. [[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 00:41, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
# [[User:Talos|Talos]] -

# [[User:Catrope|Catrope]] - {{Support}}. I know the voting is officially over, but the project is still not implemented AFAIK. Also, very few votes have been cast.
::{{comment}} Please vote! We need more votes!
# [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] - {{support}} - with the codicil that a wiki isn't an IPTV substitute. Used to illustrate a point, it's a good thing. Used just because it's there is not. (apologies for late vote, lets assume it still counts) [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 14:49, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

==Hosting of flv files==
We will need to work out where the files will actually be hosted. I have tested the extension using a /flv file uploaded directly to the Battlestar wiki server as well as pulling files direct from Google and YouTube. We will need to check the terms of service for G/Y if we intend to use that option to ensure that we are within the rules to do this. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 10:30, 8 March 2007 (CST)
:I have to see if I can get it the mediawiki upload system to upload certain types of files to a certain directory. I'll explore that right now really quick. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 10:34, 8 March 2007 (CST)
::If you upload flv files to the image namespace then whats the point in using advrite? people would just go direct to the source thereby using up our bandwidth and we wont get revenue. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:56, 8 March 2007 (CST)
:::I think he was just proposing hosting them on the server, not necessarily "exposing" them to viewing without going through your extension/AdBrite. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:22, 8 March 2007 (CST)
::::Oh right. The ideal solution is via G or Y tho. Because they have an infrastructure to stream and convert videos into flv format. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 16:37, 8 March 2007 (CST)

==Minor modification==
I belive Shane was saying that the extension can be modified slightly to give a credit in the [[Special:Version]] page. I was hoping he would be able to claify this a little more? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:21, 30 April 2007 (CDT)

User:Durandal

2007-08-16T14:00:52Z

Durandal:

{{Character Data|
|photo=
|age=26
|colony=Texas
|birthname=D. W. "Drew" McCray
|servicen=
|callsign=Durandal
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=none
|children=none
|marital status=Perpetually Single
|role=Luker, Commentator, Occasional purveyor of Random Information and Wit.
|rank=Civilian
|actor=Himself
|cylon=
|name=
}}

Durandal is Rampant. 'Nuff Said.....
And severely out of the loop as well...

[[Category:Galactipedian|Durandal]][[Category:Wikipedians|Durandal]]

User talk:Serenity

2007-08-16T13:56:05Z

Durandal: /* Wikipedian */ Reply

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== User Amfulay ==

[[User talk:Amfulay|Move is done]]. Please let the user know that the name has been changed by email just in case they don't immediately return. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]]
:Yeah, I saw it. I emailed him already, saying that it will be taken care of. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:19, 21 June 2007 (CDT)

== Singular nouns ==

Just so you know, something like Pegasus' is actually allowed in modern English, although it's still pronounced as Pegasus's. The s-less form is a more recent development, and I agree with you that Pegasus's is more consistent. Pegasus', however ugly, is allowed, though. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 15:41, 25 June 2007 (CDT)
:Mhhh, alright. But we use apostrophe-s for its plural here, so it's better to stick to that. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:46, 25 June 2007 (CDT)

== Deletions ==

Please, please, PLEASE do not delete articles stating "per consensus on talk page" or similar, and delete the talk page mere seconds later. Not only is this very confusing for non-sysops who haven't seen the full discussion (e.g. me), it's also policy to leave the talk page intact, per [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Think Tank/Deletion Archives#Formal Vote|this discussion]]. Please restore [[Talk:Threa Sita]] (and move it to [[Talk:Thera Sita]]) and [[Talk:Apple iPatch]]. Also, you might wanna see [[Threa Sita/Thwhatever Sita]] which has slightly more content (you might wanna merge some stuff). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 06:07, 2 July 2007 (CDT)
:Yeah, I wasn't sure if this policy is officially in effect already. Sorry. :(
:I don't have time now, but I will get to it later. And I left out that content deliberately, because it's just retelling the episode. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:12, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

== Citing ==

OK, cool! Just one question though. I've tried using the template you mentioned but the number of the citing wasn't correct. It should have been 13 but came out 6, or something like that. Any idea where I might have gone wrong? {{unsigned|Helo87}}
:The numbering is caused by the ref tags and done automatically. It depends on the order of the references. If you insert a reference somewhere inbetween, the others after it will change, so you can't really influence it the way you want. But there is no need to worry about it, as the exact number of a reference doesn't really matter. Just that it has one. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:18, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

== Joe's Bar ==
Thanks for the add on the Crew facilities page on Joe's Bar...I was trying to remember other times it had been used for other things and I was WAY too tired to be thinking about anything!--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 10:14, 10 July 2007 (CDT)
:No problem. :) The refugee camp is technically another use, but I don't think it should go here, as it's for the civilians and not the crew. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:21, 10 July 2007 (CDT)
::I had the exact same thought. If we do that I think we'd have to add the launch tubes as execution chambers too :)--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 11:19, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

==Archiving==
It's good you're adding the ArchiveBot to pages, but you should make sure the archive points to Talk:(insertpagehere), not User_Talk:Serenity. If you don't make sure of that, pages like [[Talk:Crossroads, Part II]] would be put into an archive on your user talk page. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 20:38, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
:EEEEEEEEEEEEK!!!! I copied the code from my page. Thanks for reminding me. Thankfully the bot isn't always on :) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 04:59, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

== Copy/Paste ==
What'd I do wrong on the copy paste for GuyIncognito? I saw where it dropped a lot of it into the comments section on recent changes, but something else I need to know?--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 10:23, 16 July 2007 (CDT)
:You copied it from your user page, right? Because instead of his user name, yours was there :) Btw, you can just use a the template <nowiki>{{welcome|Username}}</nowiki> instead.
:But it's not as bad as my recent copy/paste job where I accidentally told the archive bot to archive several pages to my own talk page. Fortunately it wasn't running. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:30, 16 July 2007 (CDT)
::Yeah, I just noticed that I was answering his question about fanfiction. What a dumbass I am. Maybe nexttime I write to you I'll sign it Serentiy :)--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 10:32, 16 July 2007 (CDT)
:::Don't worry. Nothing bad happened. Just use the welcome template next time. Less work anyways :) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:36, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

== Thanks! ==

Thanks for the quick revert and block on the misguided sap. The person in question has attempted to get under my skin for sometime now -- which in itself is extremely sad, actually, and rather hilarious to boot! Much obliged. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki — ''New''] 14:56, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
:Dude's an ass. Jealousy perhaps? -- [[User:Veepz|Veepz]] 15:04, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
::I likely banned the person in question from WP during my active period there. He probably has nothing better to do. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki — ''New''] 15:13, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
:::The guy's definitely got some nerve, vandalizing your user page. Pity for him anons don't get move rights, or you would've been at [[User:Loser]] or [[User:Pornlover]] right now ;) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 15:49, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
:Ewww stalkers. I guess those aren't losers at all. He really owned you there. ;) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:14, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
:: ROFL! :-) Again, I'm most amused by this. Particularly since it's all ancient history at this point. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki — ''New''] 16:19, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

== Edit ==

I think you need to edit the welcome template some more, I can't do it. It says "by enter fouring tides". Perhaps "by entering four tides" would be better? -- [[User:Veepz|Veepz]] 16:25, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
:Frak! Thanks for telling me. Cursor must have jumped somehow :( --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:28, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
:: Hehe, no worries, it has happened to me on numerous occasions. :-) -- [[User:Veepz|Veepz]] 16:30, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

== Wikipedian ==

Um, why am I no longer a wikipedian? [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 08:33, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
:Because we decided that we are [[Category talk:Wikipedians|not really Wikipedians]] and so the category was changed to "Galactipedian". That happened in June already. I just got around to changing the users who added the category by hand and so weren't affected by the automatic change. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:35, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
::Duly noted. Meanwhile, as I happen to be (at least in theory) a wikipedian and a galactipedian, I will be re-adding the former. As a side note, it might be a good idea to acutally use the summary field in such cases, as it cuts down on the "HUH?" moments... TheEverRampant [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 08:40, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
:::Yeah, but it wasn't just you I changed as [[Special:Recentchanges]] shows. So not making an edit summary for all was just laziness :(
:::I understand that you might see yourself as a Wikipedian in the sense as being on the actual Wikipedia, but that's not really what the category was about. It was just users of this wiki and merely used the Wikipedia name. I deleted the category, but I can restore without all the sub categories, so people who think they are true Wikipedians can use it. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
:::: Laziness gets the best of all of us at times.... meh. Meanwhile, the whole reason I ever added that tag was because I thought that was what that catagory was about. Considering my lack of activity recently, amongst other factors, I'm not going to ask/demand that a catagory be created solely on my whim. [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 08:56, 16 August 2007 (CDT)

User talk:Serenity

2007-08-16T13:40:53Z

Durandal: /* Wikipedian */ Reply

User talk:Serenity

2007-08-16T13:33:20Z

Durandal: Wikipedian

User:Durandal

2007-08-16T13:30:13Z

Durandal: Bio update

User:Day

2006-04-17T07:59:08Z

Durandal: /* Personal Information */ Added link for information on g4 cube. Cleared by Day

{{Character Data|
|photo= [[Image:User_Day.jpg|200px]]
|age=23
|colony=Texas
|birthname=Ben Hamill
|servicen=
|callsign=Day
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status=Engaged
|role=[[Raptor]] [[ECO|ICO]], [[Battlestar]] ''[[Main Page|Wiki]]''
|rank=[[Special:Listusers/sysop|ADM]]
|actor=Himself
|cylon=Y
|name=
}}
Ben "Day" Hamill lives in Texas where he enjoys MUSHing, playing [http://www.guildwars.com/ Guild Wars] and watching roughly one hour of television each week. You get three guesses as to which hour.

==Personal Information==
Occasionally, Ben spends time viewing various things on DVD. Most recently, these things include [http://source.bungie.org/ Lost], and [[Wikipedia:Carnivale|Carnivale]]. In his opinion, these things don't quite count as watching television as, "it's the ads that really rot the brain. You can choose not to watch a bad show, but bad ads could be in any show, no matter how good."

Currently, Ben lives with his girlfriend of 6 years, Sara. They were engaged on 4 March 2006 and have begun planning their wedding. The date will most probably be mid-June, 2007.

Ben is a Bachelor of the Arts in Linguistics from the [http://www.utexas.edu/ University of Texas at Austin]. This is noteworthy because, apparently unbeknownst to UT, Linguistics is a ''science''. While there, Ben was a member of the [http://www.longhornband.org/ Longhorn Band] in which he played the [http://www.texastrombones.net/ Trombone].

Ben has been a member of the Battlestar Wiki since 29 August, 2005. Users who sign talk page posts, but have empty user pages irk Ben because they trigger his broken link sense needlessly.

Ben owns a [http://www.apple.com/ Mac] ([http://www.apple-history.com/body.php?page=gallery&model=g4cube&performa=off&sort=date&order=DESC G4 Cube]) named [[Wikipedia:Melchior|Melchior]], a PC ([http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/dimen_4700?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd Dell Dimension 4700]) named [[Wikipedia:Prometheus|Prometheus]] and an [http://www.xbox.com/en-US/default.htm XBox] with no name. He is considering naming his Honda Civic something that sounds like the name of a [http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/spacemarines/catalog/spacemarines/sm_dreadnought.htmSpace Marine Dreadnaught] from [[Wikipedia:Warhammer 40,000|Warhammer 40,000]].

Ben's favorite time is 11:11.

==Toolbox==
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Characters|Character Project Page]] ([[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters|Talk]])
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions|Standards and Conventions]] ([[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions|Talk]])
* The [[Colonial Wireless Alphabet]] ([[Talk:Colonial Wireless Alphabet|Talk]])
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|Citation Jihad]]
* Images
*: [[Battlestar Wiki:Requested Images|Pictures I Need to Get]]
*: [[Battlestar WIki:Island of Misfit Images|The Island of Misfit Images]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Administrators' Noticeboard]]
* [[Battlestar Wiki:Portals|Portals Project]]

==Non-Wiki Projects==
* '''Texas Sports Weekly'''
*: I am the web dude for [http://www.texassportsweekly.com/ Texas Sports Weekly], which is a podcast hosted by my good friend, Ross Lucksinger, which focuses primarily on sports related to the University of Texas, secondarily on sports in the state of Texas and tertiarily on professional sports in the United States. He has yet to mention a sport in another country, but I wouldn't put it past him to talk a bit about the [http://www.letour.fr/indexus.html Tour de France] or the [http://www.fifa.com/en/index.html World Cup] in their time.
* '''Nomicron'''
*: I play a [http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/nomic.htm nomic] called [http://www.nomicron.org Nomicron]. My player name there is, amazingly, Day. One of my proudest accomplishments there is that it's sort of a tradition, now, for me to design a new logo for each Round. I've done Rounds four, five and six, which has just begun. The theme of the logo doesn't ''have'' to affect how the Round turns out, but it did in an amusing way in Round five, and very well may in Round six.

==Contact Information==
Feel free to drop me a line via email or to add me to your AIM list for discussion of this Wiki. I am not the most private person there ever was.

*Email: '''iamday''' over '''at [http://www.gmail.com/ gmail dot com]'''.
*AIM: '''Noit Fi''' (Mac) or '''DayAsPrometheus''' (PC).

==A Note on Images==
I try to use the following format for naming image files I upload. This is mostly for my own reference, though if someone wants to use this sytem, too, they're welcome to. The reason I like to include episode names is so that, when I see a picture, I might have a better idea of the context if I knew what else had been going on at the time.

''Episode_Name-Content.ext'' (ex: [[:Image:Kobols Last Gleaming pt2-Gaeta.jpg]], [[:Image:Tigh Me Up Tigh Me Down-Baltar Six.jpg]], [[:Image:Mini-Billy.jpg]], etc.)

[[Category:Wikipedians|Day]]

Talk:Messengers/Archive 1

2006-03-20T07:02:10Z

Durandal: oops, forgot the sig....

We should add some more specific examples of what the hallucinations have done. A picture of Internal-Baltar with Six would also be good.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:48, 14 March 2006 (EST)

Aside from marking the page as primarily speculative, I agree this page should stay. This is one of the things that people immediately notice when watching this series, and therefore deserves a place here. --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 01:02, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== "Most likely" ==

The article suggests that Six is "most likely" an actual, downloaded personality on a chip in his head. I disagree with this, in part because RDM himself has stated otherwise in his podcasts, but also because I think they've been very careful, for the most part, to leave the question balanced. Gaius Baltar is a genius. If Internal-Six is an hallucination, then he's officially a mad genius, but he's a genius, nonetheless. Almost all of his insights into Cylon motives, actions, and character can be explained simply by his being a genius with multiple personality disorder.

And example, from the miniseries: Six points out the device (later revealed to be a kind of transponder) on the underside of the DRADIS console. Baltar (like Gaeta, who admitted having seen it) has undoubtedly seen this device out of the corner of his eye the whole time he's been in CIC, and it is pretty obviously out of place with the rest of the ship's tech. A "normal" person would either ignore it (as Gaeta did, thinking it was part of the transformation of the ship into a museum) or start speculating silently to themselves what it might be and how it got there. The difference is that Baltar now has a dissociative personality that closely resembles his Cylon lover to talk these things through. Everything he knows or speculates that's related to the Cylons now comes from this split personality, because he's desperately trying to evade his own complicity.

In short, it's just as likely (if not more) that Baltar diagnosed himself correctly from the beginning. He's basically gone mad. And since he's not being treated, he will undoubtedly get worse before he gets better.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:41, 14 March 2006 (CST)
:Clarified.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:19, 14 March 2006 (EST)

:I think this page is redundant and should be removed.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:56, 14 March 2006 (CST)
::Why? It discusses both Internal-Six and Internal-Baltar, who constitute a single phenomenon or two closely related phenomena, so it doesn't belong under either Number Six or Gaius Baltar. All the information from the Internal-Six section of the Six article has been removed and put here. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:26, 14 March (EST)
:::I disagree with Merv that it's redundant, but I do think a lot of it is speculative. We've been tightening the standards on speculation in episode articles, but I'm not certain what the standard is outside them.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 15:12, 14 March 2006 (CST)
::::Since little concrete is known about the hallucinations the page about them is of course full of speculation, but they're too important not to have a page. The changes in prevailing theories as new evidence airs is noted. I agree that episode articles should not be speculative. Also, most of this content was already on this site, it has merely been moved to this more appropriate page.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:46, 14 March 2006 (EST)
:::::A fair point, and I'm not even sure I would have noticed the speculative aspects as worthy of mention until yesterday, when the policy for "Questions" in episode articles shifted. Now, tho', I'm sensitive to the question of which articles should be strictly encyclopedic and which can and should be more speculative. I'm not saying I'm certain this article should be heavily edited to strip out speculation. I'm saying I'm not certain either way.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 15:28, 14 March 2006 (CST)
::::::It sounds like Uncle Mikey might be ripe for [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|recruitment]]. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:41, 14 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::Thou shalt not make a machine mind in the image of a human mind. Oh, wait, that's the '''Butlerian''' Jihad... :-D --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:44, 15 March 2006 (CST)

Nonetheless, there are only two instances of this. Further, Baltar was definately a hallucination by Caprica-Six, clean and simple. Meanwhile, we still don't know what virtual Six is, but that goes on her own page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:43, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:How so? Is it just a coincidence that she has an inner Baltar and he has an inner Six? --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 06:06, 17 March 2006 (CST)
:Further, and this is my biggest arguement against this (practicality): most of the information here is actually cut and pasted from other arguements. The entire last paragraph is just taken from the virtual Six article.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:44, 15 March 2006 (CST)
::I don't necessarily see that as an argument to eliminate this article. Having a single article that consolidates information about a particular topic is not a bad thing, and this topic is certainly one of wide interest.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:44, 15 March 2006 (CST)

::Mikey you've only got two "hallucinations". It is hard to consolidate ''two'' things. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:38, 15 March 2006 (CST)

This article is useful, and is not redundant in the least. It is speaking of a particular occurence of a character, which plays an important role and appears to be separate from all other instances of Number Six. It is silly to say that it is mere coincidence that both Baltar and Six are having hallucinations of each other, so it is a topic that should have a page listing information on each sighting of the hallucinations. After all, we have articles about marines who only have their names mentioned...considering the importance of virtual Six and virtual Baltar in influencing events, I think they more than qualify in importance in having their own article. As for the speculation, I would argue that an article about something that is as confusing as this will have a fair amount of speculation, until later episodes clear things up (if they ever do). I see nothing wrong with paragraphs beginning, "Thus far, it appears..." --[[User:Ravriem|Ravriem]] 19:48, 17 March 2006 (CST)
: I am seeing no problems with this page. It works! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:10, 19 March 2006 (CST)

This page is extremely important. It is the only category in which Internal Six and Baltar (one of which is extremely important to the entire story) and all the hallucinations brought by six can fit. They don't fit anywhere else and to delete the page is to simply through these two and their "special effects" away. They are the reason behind everything that is going on. Face it, they are basically gods in the show, shaping the decisions of both sides. I wouldn't be surprise if they did indeed turn up being a part of the Cylon God. My point is, it is important to differentiate them from normal Baltar or any Six, they are not Cylons or humans, they are manipulative Hallucinations that have shaped things in their image. Arguing that they are only two is unfair, hallucinations refers to the entire set of hallucinations, the whole topic of mental six and mental baltar and basically the whole Six-Baltar story line. Its even more important to the story than one of the main characters like Thrace. -- [[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 20 March

No. In the podcasts RDM stated that the Baltar hallucination was just a hallucination, while they have been consistently ambiguous on ChipSix. Meanwhile, you even ''used'' the phrase "delete the thread"--->this is not a ''forum''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:25, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:That was a mistake. No point in making attacks on a simple error, they don't really help. And RDM did not say Batlar was "just a hallucination", he said he was a hallucination, but then we already knew that, both are, by definition, hallucinations, whether aided by a foreign device or not. You interpreted to mean that baltar six was absolutley nothing more than madness. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19 March 2006

Talk:Leoben Conoy (New Caprica copy)/Archive 1

2006-03-20T05:36:45Z

Durandal: /* Siblings */

== Note on Cylon Numbers ==

I don't know what other people think, but now that four of the twelve Cylon model numbers are accounted for, can we put a note on Conoy saying something to the effect of, "Leoben Conoy is either Number 1, 2, 4, 7, 9, or 10? I couldn't figure out how to place it.--[[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 18:34, 25 February 2006 (EST)
:There's no way to word it without that being clumsy. We shouldn't make a note of it until we know for certain. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:40, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:Don't bother doing anything saying "well, it's one of these 8 numbers" is just too complicated.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:11, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I'm betting on Leoben being number 4. Anyone else want to venture a guess (just for fun)? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:16, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I don't know, he could be number 2--[[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 20:21, 2 March 2006 (CST)

Hi. I feel I should point out that both the DVD cover and an entry in RDM's Blog at Scifi.com refer to this Cylon as 'Leobon', not 'Leoben'.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:39, 4 March (EST)

:The official site is notriously bad on exact spelling; IMDB lists it with an e.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:41, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Spelling? ==
I don't mean to be dense here, but just why is Leoben's surname consistently spelled "Conoy" when Roslin distinctly pronounces it as "Conroy" in [[Flesh and Bone]]? I've poked around a bit and this is the only instance that I can find of the name actually being spoken in the series. Did Roslin mispronounce it or is this a misspelling that has gotten way out of hand? Just wondering about that for a while now...--[[User:grugnir|Grugnir]]

==Siblings==
Should we mention that all humanoid Cylons are technically siblings, as has been mentioned on screen is thus canon?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:59, 17 March 2006 (EST)

:It would be nice I think. After all, the Cavil's referred to each other as "Brother", and not because of G-Cavil's role as a priest. Six also called Sharon "little sister". This in itself supports not only what they call one another but also possibly supporting the age theory. I just agree that it would be good to add. --[[Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17 March 2006

::It's an "attitude" but not really true; no it should not be included. I mean, Sharon actually said she "thought of" ''Starbuck'' as her "big sister". It should not be put into a character template like that. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:47, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:Absolutely not. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:48, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::Don't they say "We are gods childeren." at one point? I have to go back to find the excat wording and when it's said, but I am pretty sure Six (In Guais's Head) says something like this at one point when Eight and the good doctor are together. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:14, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::Shane, it doesn't matter. The term "siblings" does not apply to Cylons in the conventionally understood sense. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:18, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::: Mine was just a comment.. Just a comment. But if you want my option.. [[Wikipedia:Sibbling]] defines it as 

::::'''A family is a domestic group of people (or a number of domestic groups), typically affiliated by birth or marriage, or by comparable legal relationships — including domestic partnership, adoption, surname and (in some cases) ownership (as occurred in the Roman Empire).'''

::::'''Although many people (including social scientists) have understood familial relationships in terms of "blood", many anthropologists have argued that one must understand the notion of "blood" metaphorically, and that many societies understand 'family' through other concepts rather than through "blood."''' 

::::Blood or in our case is Synthic Pathways. They are all the same. They seems to have a common bond in which they were formed. They were rasied together, they were "[[Downloaded]]" together, they even have could be considered a [[Wikipedia:Clan]] which falls under Family. As long as one has an understanding of where they came from, in this case God, to them, they have a system of Heiarchy. Even stated right here in [[Cylon_agent]] does it say, "''Cylon agents can be programmed to believe that they are truly human. These are known as "sleeper" agents. Sleeper agents appear to have a low-level Cylon personality that can conduct operations while placing the human sleeper personality "on-hold". The first copy of Sharon Valerii, known by her callsign of "Boomer" on battlestar Galactica, had little awareness of her true nature until her arrest for the attempted assassination of William Adama (Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II). This sleeper agent conducted or aided in sabotage operations within the Fleet ("Water", "Litmus"). Most agent copies, particularly Numbers Five and Six, imitate human personalities, but are fully aware of their true nature.''". This gives me proof that we do beleive that they are somewhat connected and they do feel like Siblings. If this is cause to go against this, we should change that page to say, "They are not connected to one another. No Cylons ever hangs out with another due to the fact they are not related." Not to mention that Cavil says "Hello Brother" as he enters the cell. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:32, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Shane just let it '''go''', it's not supported. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:38, 19 March 2006 (CST)
::::::By two people out of a little over 1,000 people on the Wiki? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:40, 19 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::The most it deserves is the (possible) note that they appear to think of eachother as siblings. --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 23:36, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Messengers/Archive 1

2006-03-20T05:31:47Z

Durandal: Added my $.02

We should add some more specific examples of what the hallucinations have done. A picture of Internal-Baltar with Six would also be good.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:48, 14 March 2006 (EST)

Aside from marking the page as primarily speculative, I agree this page should stay. This is one of the things that people immediately notice when watching this series, and therefore deserves a place here.

== "Most likely" ==

The article suggests that Six is "most likely" an actual, downloaded personality on a chip in his head. I disagree with this, in part because RDM himself has stated otherwise in his podcasts, but also because I think they've been very careful, for the most part, to leave the question balanced. Gaius Baltar is a genius. If Internal-Six is an hallucination, then he's officially a mad genius, but he's a genius, nonetheless. Almost all of his insights into Cylon motives, actions, and character can be explained simply by his being a genius with multiple personality disorder.

And example, from the miniseries: Six points out the device (later revealed to be a kind of transponder) on the underside of the DRADIS console. Baltar (like Gaeta, who admitted having seen it) has undoubtedly seen this device out of the corner of his eye the whole time he's been in CIC, and it is pretty obviously out of place with the rest of the ship's tech. A "normal" person would either ignore it (as Gaeta did, thinking it was part of the transformation of the ship into a museum) or start speculating silently to themselves what it might be and how it got there. The difference is that Baltar now has a dissociative personality that closely resembles his Cylon lover to talk these things through. Everything he knows or speculates that's related to the Cylons now comes from this split personality, because he's desperately trying to evade his own complicity.

In short, it's just as likely (if not more) that Baltar diagnosed himself correctly from the beginning. He's basically gone mad. And since he's not being treated, he will undoubtedly get worse before he gets better.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:41, 14 March 2006 (CST)
:Clarified.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:19, 14 March 2006 (EST)

:I think this page is redundant and should be removed.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:56, 14 March 2006 (CST)
::Why? It discusses both Internal-Six and Internal-Baltar, who constitute a single phenomenon or two closely related phenomena, so it doesn't belong under either Number Six or Gaius Baltar. All the information from the Internal-Six section of the Six article has been removed and put here. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:26, 14 March (EST)
:::I disagree with Merv that it's redundant, but I do think a lot of it is speculative. We've been tightening the standards on speculation in episode articles, but I'm not certain what the standard is outside them.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 15:12, 14 March 2006 (CST)
::::Since little concrete is known about the hallucinations the page about them is of course full of speculation, but they're too important not to have a page. The changes in prevailing theories as new evidence airs is noted. I agree that episode articles should not be speculative. Also, most of this content was already on this site, it has merely been moved to this more appropriate page.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:46, 14 March 2006 (EST)
:::::A fair point, and I'm not even sure I would have noticed the speculative aspects as worthy of mention until yesterday, when the policy for "Questions" in episode articles shifted. Now, tho', I'm sensitive to the question of which articles should be strictly encyclopedic and which can and should be more speculative. I'm not saying I'm certain this article should be heavily edited to strip out speculation. I'm saying I'm not certain either way.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 15:28, 14 March 2006 (CST)
::::::It sounds like Uncle Mikey might be ripe for [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|recruitment]]. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:41, 14 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::Thou shalt not make a machine mind in the image of a human mind. Oh, wait, that's the '''Butlerian''' Jihad... :-D --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:44, 15 March 2006 (CST)

Nonetheless, there are only two instances of this. Further, Baltar was definately a hallucination by Caprica-Six, clean and simple. Meanwhile, we still don't know what virtual Six is, but that goes on her own page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:43, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:How so? Is it just a coincidence that she has an inner Baltar and he has an inner Six? --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 06:06, 17 March 2006 (CST)
:Further, and this is my biggest arguement against this (practicality): most of the information here is actually cut and pasted from other arguements. The entire last paragraph is just taken from the virtual Six article.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:44, 15 March 2006 (CST)
::I don't necessarily see that as an argument to eliminate this article. Having a single article that consolidates information about a particular topic is not a bad thing, and this topic is certainly one of wide interest.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:44, 15 March 2006 (CST)

::Mikey you've only got two "hallucinations". It is hard to consolidate ''two'' things. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:38, 15 March 2006 (CST)

This article is useful, and is not redundant in the least. It is speaking of a particular occurence of a character, which plays an important role and appears to be separate from all other instances of Number Six. It is silly to say that it is mere coincidence that both Baltar and Six are having hallucinations of each other, so it is a topic that should have a page listing information on each sighting of the hallucinations. After all, we have articles about marines who only have their names mentioned...considering the importance of virtual Six and virtual Baltar in influencing events, I think they more than qualify in importance in having their own article. As for the speculation, I would argue that an article about something that is as confusing as this will have a fair amount of speculation, until later episodes clear things up (if they ever do). I see nothing wrong with paragraphs beginning, "Thus far, it appears..." --[[User:Ravriem|Ravriem]] 19:48, 17 March 2006 (CST)
: I am seeing no problems with this page. It works! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:10, 19 March 2006 (CST)

This page is extremely important. It is the only category in which Internal Six and Baltar (one of which is extremely important to the entire story) and all the hallucinations brought by six can fit. They don't fit anywhere else and to delete the thread is to simply through these two and their "special effects" away. They are the reason behind everything that is going on. Face it, they are basically gods in the show, shaping the decisions of both sides. I wouldn't be surprise if they did indeed turn up being a part of the Cylon God. My point is, it is importatn to differentiate them from normal Baltar or any Six, they are not Cylons or humans, they are manipulative Hallucinations that have shaped things in their image. Arguing that they are only two is unfair, hallucinations refers to the entire set of hallucinations, the whole topic of mental six and mental baltar and basically the whole Six-Baltar story line. Its even more important to the story than one of the main characters like Thrace. -- [[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 20 March

No. In the podcasts RDM stated that the Baltar hallucination was just a hallucination, while they have been consistently ambiguous on ChipSix. Meanwhile, you even ''used'' the phrase "delete the thread"--->this is not a ''forum''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:25, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Portal talk:Cylons

2006-03-19T14:06:29Z

Durandal: Limiting the universe?

Where and how will this be displayed when finished?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:37, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:Still working on that. It has to do with the new Main Page design that I worked on. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 21:38, 15 March 2006 (CST)

== Boxheader template issues ==
The biggest outstanding issue is with the boxheader regarding defining the colors for the title/body/borders, etc. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:23, 15 March 2006 (CST)
: Colors should not, if possible, be specified in the wikicode or the HTML. Ideally, we should use classes to control color, so that these templates may look good across all skins for the Wiki. This might take some coordination with Joe, though. --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:23, 15 March 2006 (CST)
::Didn't he send you the CSS so you could play with that? Anyway, if you can get the colors going, you're welcome to them. I can't even HARDCODE them correctly through all these layers of templates (portal->portal/boxheader->boxheader). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:36, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:::I am going to solict some outside help for this problem. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 10:00, 16 March 2006 (CST)

== TOS Cylon Pic ==
Would you like me to get a screen capture of a close-up of a TOS Centurion? I think that would look better than the DVD box cover. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:19, 17 March 2006 (CST)
: Sure. :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:20, 18 March 2006 (CST)

== Limiting the universe? ==

Is this portal to be restricted to the RDM universe? As the wording curently stands, a very large chunk of this page relates only to RDM, not TOS/1980. Anything beyond the 5th sentence, in fact. --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 08:06, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/The Merovingian

2006-03-17T10:55:52Z

Durandal:

===[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]]===
[[Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship|Back to RFA]].

'''[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:<nowiki>Battlestar Wiki:Requests for adminship/The Merovingian</nowiki>|action=edit}} Vote here] '''
'''(6/4/1) ending <nowiki>04:46</nowiki> 18 March 2006 (UTC)'''

{{User|The Merovingian}} – Self-nom.

:''Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here:'' I am the Merovingian, and I accept this nomination. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)


'''Support'''
#[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 02:41, 12 March 2006 (CST)
#[[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 09:41, 15 March 2006 (CST)
# '''Support.''' It looks like he's got the skiffy vote. He's got my vote too, though the price he'll pay is a thorough explanation of it. I weighed both the pros and the cons carefully before voting this way. Lets start with the cons. 1) Merv can be short, sarcastic, and can generally push peoples buttons and rub them the wrong way. His [[Wikipedia:Gunboat diplomacy|diplomacy]] (joke courtesy of Merv, I hadn't caught that until today) has gotten a lot better lately, especially with regards to edit summaries, which were where I think most people were getting annoyed. People DO read the edit summaries, and what you say in those can end up being as important (or even more important) than the actual edit. 2) Merv has a rep for biting newbies. "Noobies are the rungs on the ladder of success; don't hesistate to step on them." [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1601766&Searchpage=1&Main=1600979&Words=rungs+The_Merovingian&topic=&Search=true#Post1601766 Exhibit A] Part of this is just how he operates anyway (he's equally short and sarcastic with everyone). However, he has of late made significant strides [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Laineylain&diff=prev&oldid=35629 Exhibit B] in both welcoming newbies, as well as calmly discussing issues with them [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Aggie&diff=prev&oldid=36155 Exhibit C]. There still might be some room for improvement [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Stealthboy&diff=prev&oldid=36306 Exhibit D] (maybe greet them BEFORE assuming bad faith), but nobody's perfect. (And he's been greeting more folks than I have.) Those are the main items I have in the con pile. Now on to the pro's. 1)He's an outspoken advocate of the wiki at scifi.com. Exhibits [[User:Dogger|E]] and [[User:Mazzy|F]] are present higher up on the page. Whenever a topic comes up that has some coverage over here, you can pretty well count on Merv to provide a relevent link. That leads to more eyes on the subject, and hopefully more contributors eventually. 2)Merv is a zealous fact checker. Anybody can baselessly speculate elsewhere, but Merv holds the wiki to a high standard, ensuring accuracy. (I think he gets frustrated when he realizes that such standards cannot be upheld elsewhere.) If he makes a claim, it's going to be grounded in canon, and if you can disprove it in canon he will acknowledge his error. 3)Merv is a tireless contributor. He spends a lot of time figuring this stuff out, and it shows. His zealous dedication may have something to do with the contempt he has for those who show little thought or effort behind their words (but I'm just speculating). I was tempted to copy an excerpt from an argument he had here to Scifi.com. In it, the person Merv was having a discussion with accused him of not being a dedicated enough BSG fan (having not seen TOS), and therefore of basically having too much of a life outside of BSG. I nearly fell out of my chair laughing, as his biggest detractors over at skiffy usually claim quite the opposite. In the end, this RFA isn't a popularity contest. (Though I may be biased, having been selected as an admin with the fewest popular votes ever.) The RFA is about whether or not Merv will use the mop as it is intended to be used. I believe he shall. That being said, I caution Merv to remember that if he thought he was under scrutiny before, it will be doubly so now. Your detractors/enemies are likely to look for any excuse they can find to try to take your mop away. It is my hope that you don't give them one, and instead crack them over the head with your mace of facts, pin them against the wall with your shield of canon, and then... maybe win them over with that razor wit. So that we can have some more productive contributors here at the battlewiki. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:11, 16 March 2006 (CST)
#[[User:Artlogical|Artlogical]] 12:08, 16 March 2006 (EST)
#[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 08:51, 16 March 2006 (CST)
#[[User:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 17:11, 17th March
'''Oppose'''
#I've found the Merovingian a bit vindictive and superior-sounding. Edit: I'm sorry if this is somewhat biting to read. I know how being criticized, even on the Internet, can lead to hurt feelings.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:16, 16 March 2006 (EST)
#While Merv has made vast improvements in the past months, I still do not believe he is administrator material. An administrator has many tasks, however, one of the most important administrator tasks is conflict resolution, since is it a task that not everyone can do. I believe that Merv has demonstrated that he has a holier-than-thou attitude, especially towards newbies. He is an EXCELLENT contributor, of that I am more than sure. However, he can continue to contribute in the professional methodology and high-volumes he has shown, without being an administrator. Also, it is not as if we have a shortage of administrators here at Battlestar Wiki. The five we have are fast, fair, and knowledgeable. In short, the powers that would be granted to Merv as an adminstrator would not positivley augment his best qualities (his knowledge of all things BSG, his thoroughness, and his rapidity), but rather would amplify his shortcomings. (his occasional rudeness, and shortness with newbies) I have come to respect Merv as a major contributor to the wiki, but with the desire to uphold the quality and continued prosperity of the wiki as my number one goal, I cannot in good concience vote positive on Merv's self RFA. --[[User:Kraetos|Kraetos]] 15:58, 16 March 2006 (CST)
#Vote fraud. Even if he had a more votes than Oppose votes, it would have been 80%. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 22:54, 16 March 2006 (CST)
#*That is a serious accusation, which I will insist you back up. The fact that Merv's friends from SciFi.com came here to vote for him should certainly not be a mark against him, although the weight we should give to their opinions can be debated. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:31, 16 March 2006 (CST)
#**I have looked around the Scifi.com boards and the weight he has there out-weighs here. Even though I am usually not against the person, but the method on how these votes would be counted. It just so happens two nights before it ends, votes popup and a large part of the support comes from SciFi.com. Sounds like private messageing favors to me. Nothing against Merovingian, there are over 1,000 people on these wiki, and only the ones that have been here less than a month would have gotten him Adminship. Hold it against me if you do, but that is my reason. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 00:02, 17 March 2006 (CST)
#***In my opinion, your vote should be decided based solely on your judgement of Merv's qualifications and character. We can address the Scifi.com issue afterwards. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:01, 17 March 2006 (CST)
# Oppose. I respect Merv as, probably, the most prolific and accurate contributer to this Wiki. The posts above have enumerated much of what he's done for the Wiki. So that's not why I'm voting oppose. I'm also not voting oppose regarding Merv's experiences head-butting with other users. I think he's come a long way with that and been able to think about his communication with others here from new angles. I think he deserves some recognition for that, as well. One of the things I was thinking about when mulling this over and deciding how I'd vote is actually best summed up in Peter's [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:What_adminship_is_not#Adminship_is_not_a_trophy|link below]]. Specifically, it is not something to be made the prize in a bet, even if it '''is''' just one vote. Also, there are a few comments regarding admins that Merv has made that make me think he misunderstands, slightly, the role and status that an admin (should) play and hold here. He has implied that admin votes when seeking consensus count a bit more and that admins hold some other kind status-oriented powers like that. Just in case it's not clear from my tone, I think that point of view is not a good one for a user to have, let alone an admin. Lastly, though Merv seems like he's outgrown some of his abbrasiveness, I think he still lacks a certain patience. If he finds some error that is not easily solved (something more than editing, like moving a page, or merging two, etc.), he will tend, in my obsevation, to make the change as soon as he proves to himself that such action is needed. I've picked up cues from those who were admins before me that, even if I (or whoever) cannot conceive of a half-decent reason to not make the change, it's still best to wait a few days in case someone else has one (or a week, maybe... more... this is fuzzy). Often, this just delays the appropriate action, but it allows all parties to voice their opinions before their folly is demonstrated and more meticulous (or whatever) minds prevail. This flaw is actually part and parcel with Merv's tendency to catch a lot of mistakes quickly. The man is like the Flash... He just needs to learn when to slow down to the speed of us mortal who cannot run on water. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:43, 17 March 2006 (CST)
'''Neutral'''
#[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:19, 15 March 2006 (CST)
#[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 04:55, 17 March 2006 (CST)

'''Comments'''
*Merv's behavior and contributions have been excellent lately, but given his sometimes mercurial disposition, I would feel more comfortable supporting his RFA if it were taking place in a few weeks' time. I will not oppose it, but I will have to contemplate the matter more before I can decide whether to support or cast my vote as neutral. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:12, 11 March 2006 (CST)
**Nonetheless, I have chosen to make the vote now. Vote what you want.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 18:14, 11 March 2006 (CST)
*Why is it that I cannot vote on this page? I have been registered for months and my email has been authenticated since November, but whenever I click the Vote Here link I get an apparently illegal url that includes an unresolved subsitution (FULLPAGENAME), and it comes up 'Bad Link'. I tried in Safari, in Camino, in Firefox, and in Internet Explorer for the Mac. No dice. Can't vote.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 23:39, 11 March 2006 (CST)
**Okay, I just voted by using the 'Edit' link and adding my name to the list, instead of by using the nonfunctional 'Vote Here' link. I hope that is acceptable.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 02:39, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:::In order for the "Vote here" button to work, you have to paste in the full wiki page name where the FULLPAGENAME was. I fixed the link (for those that don't want to just "edit". I also updated the vote count to reflect Dogger's vote (which was perfectly acceptable). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:48, 12 March 2006 (CST)
*Don't know what you guy's are on about, i'm a n00bie(or was) and merv is perfectly nice to me, helping me with wiki standards, rules, methods etc, more than anyone else did. Like you said, he does alot here. It's best to reward people for that. - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 17th March, 2006
**[[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:What_adminship_is_not#Adminship_is_not_a_trophy|Adminship is not a trophy]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:30, 17 March 2006 (CST)

'''Questions for the candidate''' 

''A few generic questions to provide guidance for voters:''
:'''1.''' What duties, if any, would you anticipate helping with? Please check out [[:Category:Project Page]]s for a list of projects.
::A. Episode Summaries, episode analysis, episode questions, episode notes. Character bios. Cylon series. Spearheading the Writer/Director category project. Furthing the [[Timeline (RDM)|Timeline]] project (and fighting the grave threat posed by the [[Season two timeline discontinuity]]). The [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Battles series]]. Going through every source of ''information'' available, be it GalacticaStation, GateWorld, NowPlayingMagazine, Lucy Lawless fansites, Ron Moore's blog, the official messageboards, several shadowy rumor mills which I cannot disclose, and the podcasts, in order to obtain, analyze, developed and post as much ''information'' as possible on this Wiki, and turn it into a truly reliable "go-to" site for up to the minute BSG information.

:'''2.''' Of your articles or contributions here, are there any about which you are particularly pleased, and why?
::A. The battles pages, all of which were of my own design (I made the battleboxes for Lord of the Rings battles on standard wikipedia, and when these were done, I wanted to keep doing something like that so I created the battles series here); secondly, due yo my vast knowledge of BSG trivial facts and analysis, I have made great contributions to the episode guides, and as it's not like I have a life outside of this :) I'm usually the first to post notes for an episode up after it airs (though this is not a rule), and I'm really happy with the episode guide stuff I've done (check the history tabs, etc). I guess a random sampling of some of my better works would be [[Downloaded]], [[Cally]], [[Uniform]], [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]] etc., my great contributions to [[Life Forms of the Twelve Colonies]] (ever vigilant), and pretty much the entire episode guide. I spearheaded the most recent movement (after debate for months) to give Cylon copies who have become individuals their own character pages, and to consider them separate characters.

:'''3.''' Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or do you feel other users have caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?
::A. They are beyond count. Yet of late I have met these challenges with firm determination and responsibility.

[[User:The Merovingian]] I think I'd be good for administrator because of A) My stagering knowledge of all things BSG (haha), B) my extensive body of work here notably on the episode guides, battle pages, and C) My good looks. I'm formally putting myself up for nomination, etc. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:46, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:My campaign music: [http://bsg-cz.net/news/files/audio/Bear_McCreary_-_Resurrection_Ship.mp3 enjoy] --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 18:31, 11 March 2006 (CST)

User talk:Day

2006-03-16T03:29:24Z

Durandal: /* All your fault */

''Conversations in the period of 29 Aug 2005 to 15 Feb 2006 have been [[User talk:Day/archive01|archived]].''

== Deletion Log Entry ==
Hooray! A search of the deletion log for user Day returns:
* 16:18, 16 February 2006 Day deleted "Image:Litmus2.jpg" (Redundant image.)
It has begun! Still no entries in the block log yet, but Spence and I don't either. Probably because of our intimidation factor. (Or maybe because I was sleeping on the job while Peter or Joe was actually looking after the place.) Congrats on the first delete! (And many more...) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 19:35, 16 February 2006 (EST)

: Block log? Man... Does this admin bit come with a fraking manual? "Of course not. That would be too logical." *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:56, 17 February 2006 (EST)

== Congrats ==

Just wanted to say Congratulations on your engagement. Best wishes! -- [[User:Laineylain|Laineylain]] 11:47, 14 March 2006 (CST)

: Thanks much. We're, perhaps obviously, pretty excited about it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:05, 15 March 2006 (CST)
::Just saw the announcement of your engagement and I too wanted to congratulate you. --Zareck Rocks 14:23, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:::Same here, congratulations. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 15:47, 15 March 2006 (CST)

== You desillifier :P ==

Party pooper. I thought that caption brought much levity to the article. :P

Bleh, I knew it wouldn't last. :)--[[User:Kross|Kross]] 14:29, 14 March 2006 (CST)

: We like to keep levity pretty [[The Battlestar Galactica Drinking Game|segregated]] from the rest of the wiki. --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:05, 15 March 2006 (CST)

== All your fault ==

Dang you, Day.. all day I've been pondering a new game.. Battlestar Marathon.
All your fault... All of it. --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]]

: Heh. A Marine-based Mod? Or maybe the Resistance? Heh. --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:03, 15 March 2006 (CST)

::Reskin the Pfhor/S'pht to be centurions (oldschool and newschool, respectively), assimilated Bobs become Agents, maps of Galactica & assorted other vessiles/locales... All your fault, Day... all your fault... *goes to play in pfhorge* --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 21:29, 15 March 2006 (CST)

User talk:Day

2006-03-15T06:40:20Z

Durandal: All your fault

User talk:DrBat

2006-03-14T06:24:36Z

Durandal: /* Baltarlaydownburdensii.jpg */ Correcting Double-post

Welcome to the Wiki. Feel free to tell us about yourself on your user page. Also read the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]] project article, which details the policies we use in editing pages (this differs from many other wikis in consistent use of phrasing, abbreviations, format, and the like). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:18, 19 January 2006 (EST)

==Nice Captures==
Nice screen captures! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:56, 20 January 2006 (EST)

: I just saw the picture of Adar you uploaded. Wonderous. Great cap. --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:51, 8 February 2006 (EST)

== Question for you... ==

Some of these pictures are of particularly high quality. Where do you get them? Are they screen caps or from some other source? -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:19, 6 February 2006 (EST)

: Yes! Please share your methods. I, myself, enjoy egtting screenshots, but I'd always love to improve the quality of the grabs I make as well as make it easier. On my [[User talk:Day#VLC Question|talk page]], SV, Talos and myself talked about our methods briefly, however, VLC is kind of a pain. If you feel the details are a bit too minute or whatever, to make the (slow) communication via Wiki worth it, please feel free to [[User:Day#Contact Information|IM me]]. I'll try to transcribe the information somewhere so that others can benefit from it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:55, 8 February 2006 (EST)

== Discussion from [[User:DrBat|User Page]] ==
''Moved from user page --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 21:42, 7 February 2006 (EST)'' 
Don't worry: most BSG fans haven't even seen the original series (including myself, except for the odd rerun or two). Fans of the new series (that I know) really aren't old series fans; all the ones I know are disgruntled former Star Trek fans.--Ricimer 18:35, 7 February 2006 (EST)

== Baltarlaydownburdensii.jpg ==

Where did that shot come from? I don't remember seeing that in the broadcast.
Doth thou have a source that the rest of us are lacking, or am I loosing my marbles? --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 00:23, 14 March 2006 (CST)

User talk:DrBat

2006-03-14T06:23:29Z

Durandal: Baltarlaydownburdensii.jpg

User talk:DrBat

2006-03-14T06:23:27Z

Durandal: Baltarlaydownburdensii.jpg

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II/Archive2

2006-03-14T03:19:46Z

Durandal: /* Cloud Nine bodycount. */

== The Cliffhanger ==

I'm betting that Baltar's little gift to the [[Demand Peace]] movement makes its way to ''Pegasus'' and is about to destroy or mortally damage the battlestar in this season closer. Mortally damaging it makes more sense to allow ''Galactica'' (and the show) to gather some of the new resources that ''Pegasus'' brought before it has to be removed from the picture. Perhaps, in coordination with a probable Cylon attack, ''Pegasus'' may end up doing a "[[The Living Legend, Part II|Commander Cain charge]]" at the start of Season 3. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:52, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quite drinking...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:02, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::Is it just me, or does the second season seem to be bouncing from cliffhanger to cliffhanger, with the in-between episodes being nothing but filler? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:08, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:::It isn't just you... Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quit sniffing glue. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:22, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::::I don't mind the "filler" episodes. I believe you need them to set up future stories down the road. I believe PEGASUS will stick around for one or two episodes next year(Gives them time to strip her down)....Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines!--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:36, 15 February 2006 (EST)
::::: I don't think the Pegasus is going anywhere... I do wonder what the rescue operation will look like though. I haven't quit anything this week... except maybe worrying. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]] 09:58, 13 March 2006 (CST)

There's no cliffhanger, really. The Cylons win, humanity is occupied and the ships of the fleet are essentially empty with everyone down on Cylon-occupied New Caprica. The show is completely different from here on out. Cloud Nine is gone (which from a production standpoint makes sense--- no need for a planet-like ship when they have an actual planet) and all the leads but Lee, Adama and possibly Sharon are on the planet, hoping not to be killed by their new Cylon overlords. It's awesome. Oh, girlBilly seems to be sticking around as a character as well. [[User:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]]

:You have no idea; that's just fanfic. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:11, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::Could one or the other of you please explain what that last enormous edit-and-reversion was all about? Numbertwelve, have you seen the episode in question? Are you passing on reports from other sources, and if so, can you identify them? Merv, are you familiar with a fanfic that resembles his description? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:18, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::Well, it sounds like he was just posting his own ''guesses/fanfic ideas'' without any basis on actual material, so I cleaned it up. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)
::::I believe that the info is coming from [http://greycoupon.livejournal.com/3808.html BIG SPOILERS]. Don't know the validity of it though.
:::::Based on the what I've read of the Part I summary, I'd say that the information was actually accurate. That said, I'm not sure this site really wants to post detailed episode summaries before the episode has actually aired anywhere, especially when we have no way of confirming the source.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:35, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: In all likelihood, numbertwelve's comments stem from [http://www.patriotresource.com/bg/insights/spoilers/season2b.html here]. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:24, 8 March 2006 (CST)

::::::: Judging by that picture, I think those spoilers might be right, though I seriously hope they are dead wrong, anyone else hope this? --[[User:LeobenConoy|LeobenConoy]] 02:30, 10 March 2006 (TST)

:::::::: It certainly would be a heck of a sharp turn for the series, but, y'know, I'm OK with that. RDM really kinda needs to keep making sharp turns to keep the series from falling too much into the established track of the Original Series, for one thing. For another thing, I like surprises :-) I don't want this story to become too predictable. Actually, when I look back over the two seasons to date, RDM et alia have not allowed us to settle into anything like a routine for more than a few episodes before they kick over the tables again. That's a good thing. That said, if the spoilers are in fact correct...it's going to be a long six months 'til we find out how the situation resolves itself...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:12, 9 March 2006 (CST)

::::::::: Well, actually, [[user:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]] was right! I don't know who he/she is, but (s)he knew what'll happen exactly in ''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'' Anyway, it's the best ep so far! --[[User:Nyiz|Nyiz]] 16:14, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::::: Regardless, that degree of detail probably didn't belong on the encyclopedic page before the episode had actually aired anywhere...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 13:57, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== The Peace Proposal ==

I haven't actually seen "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]", yet (I don't have cable, so I'm basically watching via DVD as time allows), but reading the summary, I see no mention of the Cylon peace proposal in the story as aired. It looks as though the preliminary data for the episodes was somewhat misleading, and that the peace proposal won't come until Part II. The Part II article, however, still reflects the old information. Should this be changed now? Or just wait for Friday's airing and the full summary?--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:32, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Speechless ==
Holy crap they turned everything on its head. I can't think of a better way of stating the obvious. ONE YEAR LATER!?!?!? Crap. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 22:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Yep...and we'll have to wait about that frakkin' long to find out WTF happens next...:)
[[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 22:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Well, look at it this way - if they ever want to bring [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]] back due to chronology issues, they now have an excuse. Actually, I'm surprised they didn't have the character (if not the actor) doing a cameo in the schooltent.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|D]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I personally was asking, "Where's the kicker?" Well, nothing like a second Cylon occupation to do that for you. As for October...hell, they haven't even started shooting the season yet. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:32, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::You really have to find it pretty ironic that Baltar's fraked over the Colonies again. He gives Gina the bomb, fraks her, she blows up Cloud 9 (and Gods know how many ships she took with her in that blast) and Baltar forces everyone to colonize the plantet... and the Cylons find it because of the nuclear blast. How's that for a kicker? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Katee Sackhoff has to grow out her hair. She can't keep using that wig all season. Well, and the writers haven't figured out what the hell they're going to do now :P [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:06, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::I'm not sure when this episode was filmed, but she still has a month to go before they start shooting Season 3, according to SciFi. I'm sure Moore and friends have plenty of ideas to go with. The questions posted for this episode should give some possible ideas, if they even read this thing. :P --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
That was totally awesome. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:37, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I was on pins and needles the entire time. It was so good! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:56, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:: I'm just so happy that I have no idea what's going to happen next. What a fantastic finale. --[[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]] 1:48, 11 March 2006 (EST)

== Well Then... ==

Wasn't that something. I glanced over the rumors prior, but it has to be seen to get the real effect. That, and I was hoping they were dead wrong. --[[User:Michael|Michael]] 22:16, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought generally the execution of these spoilers was much better than my expections. --[[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 00:10, 11 March 2006 (EST)

== "Rampant speculation" re Starbuck/Conoy connection ==

I don't think that the ''analysis'' section is the place for something with little backing... at least currently.

: ''Although this is rampant speculation, given the warped obsession/relationship that Leoben has with Starbuck, is it possible that Starbuck's stolen egg cells from "[[The Farm]]" were fertilized with genetic material from the Leoben model to create a new Hybrid? The Cylons do seem to think she's "special".''

Anyone agree or disagree? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: To expand my point further, ''Conoy'' believed that Starbuck was special. Just because Conoy is a Cylon doesn't mean the ''Cylons'' share his belief. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

No arguements here. I've always been fuzzy on the exact parameters of the "analysis" section, however, this thought occurred to me when I remembered that A) They said that Starbuck's missing ovaries would be mentioned before the end of the season, B) It's going to be a major plot point in season 3.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:03, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: Well, in keeping with the original inspiration for the Wiki -- The Lurker's Guide to B5 -- the analysis section has always analyzed the episode. For instance, what the episode had to say, how that fit in to the grand tapestry, how that fit into real life, and things of that nature. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:12, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Long live the Lurkers guide! Best guide ever. There's also a B5 wiki being created (see my user page for the link). --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:25, 10 March 2006 (CST)

My speculation is that the reason Conoy is seeking out Kara Thrace has more to do with the events that took place with Anders, Caprica 6 and Sharon(1) in the episode downloaded...the thing with the dogtag. but we will find out in october I suppose.--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

== DubyaBaltar ==

I'd never put this in the actual wiki article, but does it strike anyone else who many jabs they're getting it at another ridiculously incompetent president? "I don't have to listen to the facts...I'm the president". etc. ''Remember, Remember the Fifth of November''.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: Though I don't think GWB has harems. Mr. Nice Gaius seems to have him beat there. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:11, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought it was a reference to Roslin and Adar's statements about "the nice thing about being President..." --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:13, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, Adar said that first. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Plus, Baltar was good friends with Adar prior to the attack. The womanizing was just good 'ol self-serving Baltar. And, when was Gaius ever nice? --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:28, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::See the dialogue section of [[Six Degrees of Separation]] for your answer Sgtpayne. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:31, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Just checked the page requested, and I'm not sure that's helping the argument. The statement is defensive in nature. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:37, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::::It's not an argument, it's an explanation as to why we're calling him "Mr. Nice Gaius". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:51, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I don't think that they are trying to Bush bash... If they were then Baltar would have been the one stealing the election. (I don't believe that Bush stole the election, but it is a common belief among Bush bashers.) Perhaps they are trying to comment on American elections in general and there are similarities, but I think the purpose is literary, not political. Oh, and definitely not article material- there is no way this could be unbiased. --[[User:Aggie|Aggie]] 10:10, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Does anyone remember... ==

... that crack Cottle made to Cally regarding women talking * (Actually, the good Doctor said "Complain") even when their jaws are wired shut? If so, we should note it under the dialogue section and perhaps on Cottle's page (he seems to have a penchant for sexist dialogue). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:18, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:You know, Joe, I don't know why you point out "Cottle made a sexist remark here" the times that he does (Downloaded, etc.) I mean that's the type of character he is. I mean, we wouldn't list off "well, Archie Bunker did this sexist thing" in an ''All in the Family'' episode guide. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Good point. Still, since it is a part of his personality, I believe it should be noted appropriately. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:29, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Got it. On a side note, there are lots of ''really'' sexist things Cottle could have said about a woman who can't open her mouth, so maybe he should get some credit for holding back... --[[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 10:39, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::None of us, neither the show or any users here, had even had that implication at any time enter our minds. Complete non sequitor. Disgusting to bring up such crudeness, Mr.JohnH. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:38, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::I can't tell if you're being serious or not, here. Because '''I''' certainly had that thought enter my mind, and you can't possibly know what the writers were thinking...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:28, 13 March 2006 (CST)

==Source?==

"Tyrol's union speech alludes to Mario Savio's address during the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in 1964."-->Can I get confirmation on that?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:[http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mario_Savio This is confirmed]. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:34, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Thanks. Great that the show is so political.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:41, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:::I don't think it's political as much as it is human. This is [[Wikipedia: Naturalistic science fiction|"naturalistic" science fiction]], after all. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:56, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Gina's Scars==
We can clearly see that Gina's back is still badly scarred from her treatment on ''Pegasus'' in this episode. However, I seem to recall her back being completely healed in "Epiphanies". Can anybody confirm? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Er, they're on her lower/mid back, while when she was wearing the tank top, you could only see her upper shoulder blades. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:42, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Playa==
At the end of the episode (near the surrender), I thought I saw [[Playa Palacios|"Miss Exclusive"]], though it may have just been a similar-looking blonde. Can someone check this? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 11:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:She's not in the credits. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:03, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Survivor count==
There's a drop of 29 between part 1 and 2: "''A more reasonable explanation is that there was a late update in the survivor count that took into account those who died off-screen during the Cylon attack on the Pegasus in "[[The Captain's Hand]]". Soldiers who are killed are often listed as MIA (Missing in Action) until they can be confirmed as KIA (Killed in Action). In the aftermath of the attack on the Pegasus, it would have taken a while to determine the exact number of crewmen and pilots killed. Also, there were probably a number of crewmen who died from injuries afterwards. As a result, a delay in updating the survivor count is quite likely''"--->No. The survivor count at the beginning of ''Part 1'' would have accounted for these losses. Part 2 takes place weeks, maybe even 2 months past "Captain's Hand"; even "[[Downloaded]]" comes in before there. 2 episodes and about 2 months passed, and we saw no further losses from Captain's Hand beyond the 5 on screen. And the Survivor Count is omniscient. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:05, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: Once would assume that the Fleet has it share of black market thugs and suicidal people... Not everything has to be Cylon related. Just a thought. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:22, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and I have always argued as such...but then that makes the static pop count from end of Captain's Hand through LDYB part I unrealistic itself. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 16:24, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::Well, one would assume that people are reported as missing prior to being reported as dead. Hence the seemingly unrealistic count changes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:32, 11 March 2006 (CST)

::::Even though I STILL think those losses are most likely late figures from "[[The Captain's Hand]]" (I'm not going to argue about this), another possible reason for the drop could be the results of election-related riots/murders. Stuff like that happens. Either that or the writers just screwed up.--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 16:45, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::And, ultimately, that is the problem... it's all about '''thought''', not '''fact'''. Until we know for certain why these variances occur (and why they register when they do), we could think about it until our brains cry for more oxygen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:58, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Judging by our current standards and conventions, and just logic, no, it is impossible for these to be "left over" number from 3 full episodes ago. Think what you want, but don't add it back to the page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:49, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::::: Just keep in mind, the "omniscient" Survivor Count is controlled by the writers just like everything else. And writers do make mistakes occasionally. Besides what other plausible explanations are there?--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 22:41, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::Really? I had always assumed that it was controlled by mutant space monkeys. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:21, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Cloud Nine bodycount. ==

Am I going completely fuzzy-headed here, or is the fact that Cloud Nine was destroyed before the transition to New Caprica being completely overlooked.
''
*How many people died in the Cloud Nine explosion?
**The Cloud Nine explosion also destroyed ships near it. Given the stated size of the New Caprica population along with subtracting the minimal crew sizes needed to maintain the ships in orbit, you can estimate that approximately 3000 to 5000 people died.
***Actually, we have no idea how many people were still crewing the civilian ships in the Fleet when Galactica and Pegasus jumped away, so it could actually have been thousands less than that.''

The answers to the questions, as I remember what I saw, are completely irrelivant. Noone was colonizing the planet yet.
Or am I completely loosing my mind [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:09, 12 March 2006 (CST)
*No, you're quite sane. Admiral Adama had ordered the first teams to New Caprica just before the commercial break, Baltar's last night with Gina, the inauguration, and the blast. There probably wouldn't have been more than a handful of raptor teams on the surface at the time--not enough to make any appreciable dent in the population figures. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:51, 12 March 2006 (EST).
::I am a little confused as to what your asking, but I will try and clarify:
::The episode states that after a year, there are about 39,000 people on New Caprica. The Galactica and the Pegasus require about 5,000 crew between the two ships, but at the time of Baltars election, were only carrying about 4,000. However, it is made clear that the two battlestars are operating with skeleton crews - so lets say for the sake of arguement that thats 1/2 of normal, which would put the combined crews at 2,500. There are other ships in the defense fleet above New Caprica, looks to be about ten additional ships, if I remember correctly. Lets say they need 600 crew each (see [[The Fleet (RDM)]], but are also running with skeleton crews, which puts them at 10 x 600 = 6,000/2 = 3,000. Combine that with the battlestars crew, you get 5,500. Add that to 39,000 and you get 44,500. Compare with the pre-New Caprica pop of 49,000 and it looks like about 4,500 died in the Nuclear blast. So, no, the destuction of Cloud 9 was not overlooked, it was indeed factored into the New Caprican population. --[[User:Kraetos|Kraetos]] 23:30, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:::My argument was that the figures mentioned have very little bearing on the actual body count caused by Gina's detonation of the nuke. There is no way to know based upon the information as presented in this episode how many were killed in that explosion. The only thing even remotely possible to conclude from those figures is an rough absolute cap. We are not informed of deaths/births between the explosion and the next available population count. The way it was origionally stated in the Questions section (as reprinted above) leads to a conclusion otherwise which leaves out important facts. Untill it is explicitly stated, or much more information on what currently composes the crew in the fleet (as of the second Cylon occupation), it is not possible to say X people died in the destruction of Cloud Nine Et Al.
::: Also, I mean argument in the debate sense, not the 'you stupid idiot' kinda sense. [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 21:19, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Where should this error go? ==
When we see it parked on the surface of New Caprica, [[Colonial One]] was missing the Colonial/presidential seal that we've seen before on its port side. Nobody would have scraped it off the hull. I know the people down there are desperate for resources, but ''paint chips''? --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:56, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:Well the real answer is that they crew just plain old forgot to put it in the model, but forcontinuity's sake, it could be hypothesized that someone discontent with the Baltar Administration scraped off the seal in the middle of the night as if to say 'this man isn't fit to have the presidential seal on his office/spaceship.' --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 13:18, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::I'd prefer to eschew the fanwankery and note it as the continuity glitch it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:28, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:::'Fanwankery'? It is completely plausible that what I said ''might'' have happened, so how can you conclude that it was a glitch. There are many ways paint like that could have come off. Perhaps when they painted the seal on Colonial One they used a paint not suitable for atmospheric re-entry and it got burned off. Maybe there is some sort of corrosive rain on the plannet that solubilizes lower quality paint. Perhaps Baltar didn't like the design on the seal. The point is that even though it was most likely a continuity glitch it is not ''nesscearily'' one. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::::[[Wikipedia:Fanwank|Fanwank]]. It's my new favorite word. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:: Eh, people... can we stop analyzing why the seal isn't on ''Colonial One''? It's more than likely a CGI glitch -- nothing more. Anything else is just <s>unhealthy obsession. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:43, 12 March 2006 (CST)</s> Correction: Extremely Unheatlthy and Unproductive Obsession. Thanks SV. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:24, 13 March 2006 (CST)
::: Um, Joe...we're a bunch of geeks spending our time creating an encyclopedia for a TV show. We're all '''about''' unhealthy obsession, aren't we? That said, this particular debate '''is''' pointless and silly. If there's a real story-based reason for the seal being missing, we'll eventually find out what it is. If there isn't (which is most likely), we won't. Making one up is silly. Fanfic is one thing, but this crack can be easily walked over; it doesn't have to be filled in with crap :-)--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 13:28, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== 6's credits voiceover ==
Should it be part of this episode? It seems that there is no discussion of it here or anywhere else. -- [[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 14:426, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:That was a commercial for Season 3, not part of this episode. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 13:54, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Firefly connection ==

Greenleaf and Persephone; both were planets in Firefly. I noticed the Greenleaf back in Sacrifice, but this episode was the first time that I saw or heard Persephone. It's a nice little homage to Firefly, if it was even on purpose. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 15:20, 12 March 2006 (CST)

:No. You are grasping at straws. "Persephone" is a very generic, widely known Greco-Roman type name, and we only see it on a list briefly. As for "Greenleaf", it has been mentioned like 3 times in dialog, but this is in fact a reference to Legolas from Lord of the Rings (both Firefly and Lord of the Rings appear to have named something after Legolas, independently of each other). However, that doesn't mean we should make a note saying "wow, both Firefly and BSG have a planet named Greenleaf"...because literally HUNDREDS of other books and tv shows have named stuff in homage to LOTR. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== We'll Be Back ==

Before the fleet jumps away, Adm. Adama announces, in McArthuresque fashion, that "We'll be back." So, I was floored to
notice on the podcast for this episode (which I just got around to listening to) that Ron Moore offhandedly mentioned that Edward James Olmos would not be returning for season three. Did anyone else catch that? It was around 25 minutes into the podcast.
--[[User:TomP|TomP]] 1:22, 13 March 2006 (EST)

:It was a JOKE. They were DRUNK. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:32, 13 March 2006 (CST)

::Also, the Chief and Colonel Tigh got married offscreen in this episode, and Season 3 starts off 5 years in the future ;) --[[Bahamut|Bahamut]] 03:22, 13 March 2006 (CST)

:::But they did not say this bit about Olmos in the same manner or even quite the same time-frame. Also, they were clearly joking about the "CGI Adama", but not necessarily about Olmos not coming back. I have listened to this segment a few times now... It doesn't strike me as a joke. --[[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]]

:::: It's possible that this was an inadvertant leak, but usually, if that sort of major cast change was going to happen, there'd be a lot more hubub about it, and that is the only place I've seen it mentioned. Every bit of news so far for S3 is that the cast is being augmented (with Lucy Lawless slated to show up several times as Number Three, and presumably Dean Stockwell as Cavil), but not reduced, and certainly not by one of its headliners. SciFi's [http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?category=0&id=34893 blurb about S3] from a couple days ago still mentions Olmos as a star. I think we have to assume that this is a red herring.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 12:53, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Caprica Six or Gina? ==

The article says:

Are the Six and Eight that Baltar surrendered to Caprica-Six and Galactica-Sharon?
* Judging from Six's reaction to Baltar, almost definitely.

However, couldn't it actually be Gina, and not Caprica-Six? From what we've seen in ''Downloaded'', I doubt the "war heroes" would join the Cylon fleet, let alone try to enslave humanity. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 08:46, 13 March 2006 (CST)

* Gina was direclty proximate to a thermonuclear explosion, and there's no Resurrection Ship currently afloat. Chances are that Gina's instance of Number Six will not be back.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:13, 13 March 2006 (CST)

== Questions Section ==
It seems like we have a problem with the "Questions" section of the episode guides. Modeled after the Lurker's Guide to B5 (a resource that I STILL use, whenever I rewatch the series on DVD), the "Questions" seems to be modeled after the [http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/012.html#UQ "Unanswered Questions"] on the Lurker's guide. Now, we're not bound to that by any means, and the episode summary information that we provide is great. However, the "Questions" section seems to become more of a "Questions and Answers" or a "Questions and Speculation", or sometimes a "Questions and Terse Verbal Combat". Ideally I'd like to see some sort of a standard upheld to the questions section so that they would have uniform quality.

One possible suggestion (following the "Oppose, propose" principle), would be moving confirmed, canonical answers to the analysis or notes section. A question with an answer in a subsequent episode might remain, with a link to the episode that answers it. What I'm mainly referring removing to are questions that were answered with information from within that episode (or a prior episode, or the podcast). If the question has already been answered, it's not really an "unanswered question" for that episode.

I just hate seeing the animosity that can be generated from the Q&A process marring the main article space (rather than discussing it in the talk pages, or on a messageboard). Also, it's not that I want to stifle all speculation. I know that our "encyclopedic" standard for most articles can feel pretty restrictive to some. However I do want it to be clear to a new reader what sections are encyclopedic, and which sections may contain speculation. I'm not trying to single anybody out. I'm just trying to clarify the purpose of the section, and see what everybody feels. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:53, 13 March 2006 (CST)

: Lurker's Guide has always rocked my world, too!

: As to your points: as I recall, the B5LG's 'Unanswered Questions' section actually never changed once it was written (well, OK, maybe it got added to, but not subtracted from). The idea behind the section was, "These are the questions this episode raises and does not answer by itself." In a tight arc story like B5, it's useful to have a record of those even when the answers eventually show up in later episodes.

: My feelings run something like this:
# If a question is raised and not answered in the episode, it belongs in the Questions section on the encylopedic page.
# If a question is raised and someone else realises it's actually answered in the episode, it might make sense to add the answer after the question, but it probably makes more sense to move both the question and the answer to the Talk page.
# If a question is answered in a later episode, the analysis for that episode should note that the event hearkens back to an earlier open plot point, and perhaps the original page should be edited to point forward to the answer, but the answer itself should not be edited into the page for the episode that posed the question.
# Debates and discussion have no place on the encylopedic pages; only on the talk pages. So if there's any dispute, the whole thing should be moved over.

: I'm a fanboy, and I like occasionally delving into speculation as much as any other fanboy, but it belongs on the talk pages, not the encylopedic ones, IMO.
--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 12:04, 13 March 2006 (CST)

: Concur. Actually, when I tackled the questions portions of earlier episodes, I would alays post a link to the question's "answer". For instance, from "[[Water]]"'s page:

:*Why do the Cylons want to keep Helo on Caprica? ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II|Answer 1]], [[The Farm|Answer 2]])

: This presents a cleaner look than:

:*Question 1?
::* Possibility 1.
:::* Sub-Possibility/Retort
::* Possibility 2.

: Plus, if you will note, the questions section on the earlier eps is a lot cleaner and orderly than our most recent entries. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:04, 13 March 2006 (CST)
::I recognize part of that is the wiki-magic at work. The newest episode always gets a lot of traffic, and you end up with the "too many cooks" effect, to some extent. This will probably sort itself out in the long run, as people begin to whittle away and classify/sort/clean all the stuff that has been added. I was just thinking it might be a good idea to quantify this concept into the comment that goes at the beginning of the questions section in the Episode Guide template (so that people can ignore it, and things can continue the way they work anyway). Mostly I'm just glad that I'm not the only one. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:12, 13 March 2006 (CST)

::: So, do we start going through and cleaning things up to fit these criteria?--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 13:56, 13 March 2006 (CST)

::::Just want to add that I agree with all of you, and thank you for tackling this issue. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:48, 13 March 2006 (CST)

::::I would proceed to add this bit on the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions|Standards and Conventions]] page. Then get to work. So say we all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:27, 13 March 2006 (CST)

::::: I've taken the liberty of adding a clarified (I hope :-) ) version of the guidelines I propose above to the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions|Standards and Conventions]].--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:03, 13 March 2006 (CST)
:::::: Nicely done! The new S&C stuff is concise, and descriptive. The questions section looks a lot better! I still don't like the all the multiple levels of bullets in the (newly moved to) analysis section. If we could make that more narrative-ish (hey look, I'm inventing words) and less bulleted it might look cleaner. Thanks for tackling that! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 20:25, 13 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II/Archive2

2006-03-12T08:09:10Z

Durandal: Cloud Nine bodycount.

User:Durandal

2006-03-12T07:47:39Z

Durandal: Into the forge with you...to be created anew.

{{Character Data|
|photo=
|age=25
|colony=Texas
|birthname=D. W. "Drew" McCray
|servicen=
|callsign=Durandal
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=none
|children=none
|marital status=Perpetually Single
|role=Luker, Commentator, Occasional purveyor of Random Information and Wit.
|rank=Civilian
|actor=Himself
|cylon=
|name=
}}

Durandal is Rampant. 'Nuff Said.....

[[Category:Wikipedians|Durandal]]

Epiphanies

2006-01-21T05:02:36Z

Durandal: /* Analysis */ Gramatical cleanup on the cylon fetus and Roslyn's cancer

{{Episode Data|
Image = [[Image:Universal_logo.jpg|300px]]
| Title= Epiphanies
| Series= [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|The Re-imagined Series]]
| Season= [[Season 2 (2005-06)|2]]
| Episode= 13
| Guests=[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Colm+Feore Colm Feore] ([[Adar (RDM)|President Adar]])
| Writer=[[David Weddle]] & [[Bradley Thompson]]
| Story=
| Director=[[Rod Hardy]]
| Production=2.13
| Rating=
| US Airdate=January 20 2006
| UK Airdate=
| DVD=
| Population=49,598
| Prev= [[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]
| Next= [[Black Market]]
}}




== Overview ==

: ''Admiral [[William Adama]] questions whether or not [[Sharon Valerii]]'s pregnancy should be aborted. Meanwhile Roslin's health declines rapidly as a pro-Cylon peace group attempts to sow civil disobedience within the Fleet.''

== Summary ==

* President [[Laura Roslin]] is brought on board ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''. She is near death and has, at best, days to live.
* Captain [[Kara Thrace]] and Lieutenant [[Louanne Katraine]] are conducting Viper tests. During a test of the Viper's projectile systems, Kat's port turret is destroyed and a piece of it impacts on Thrace's cockpit. Thrace requests priority landing; both Vipers land.
* [[Cally]] comes across three rounds of faulty ammunition, ammunition that is lighter than normal. Thus when two rounds collide an explosion occurs. [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] highly suspects sabotage.
*The investigation leads Lee Adama and Kara Thrace to a civilian worker who manufactures the ammo. When she is apprehended, she declares her alleigence to a pacifist organization that wants peace with the Cylons.

===On Caprica Prior to the Cylon Attack===
*Roslyn finds out she has cancer
*Roslyn meets with President Adar to discuss a teacher's strike, and his response.
*Roslyn meets with the leader of the teacher's union, and strikes an agreement.
*Adar disagrees with Roslyn's methods and results, and asks for her resignation.
*Roslyn then leaves for ''Galactica'''s decommisioning ceremony, telling Adar that "If you want my resignation when I get back, be prepared to fight for it."

== Questions ==



== Analysis ==

* At the end, we are shown that the bomb Dr. Baltar gave the resistance was the nuclear warhead he was given to create his Cylon Detector.
* [[Sharon Valerii|Sharon]] baby's blood was used to aparently destroy the cancerous masses in Roslyn's system. The procedure to abort Sharon's baby was not preformed.



== Notes ==

* This episode takes place between 189 and 191 days after the Cylon attack on the colonies.
* [[Lee Adama]] is once again a Captain, and has been reinstated as ''Galactica'''s CAG.
* [[Gina]] is apparently a member of the pro-Cylon resistance. The other members of the resistance are unaware she is a [[Humano-Cylon]].
* Roslyn apparently was in an intimate relationship with President Adar.
* Roslyn sees Dr. Baltar in an intimate moment with Number Six on Caprica, prior to the attacks.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==




== Official Statements ==




{{Episode List}}

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Epiphanies/Archive 1

2006-01-21T04:48:35Z

Durandal:

I got the title of episode 2.12 from: [http://www.galacticastation.com/Galactica%20Station/episodes/Ep%20header%20img/S2/s2guide.htm Galactica Station]. I'd put the info in an Episode Guide Template but have yet to figure it out. Please if anyone doesn't mind teaching me how to use templates I'd like to know. Please leave the advice on my talk page.--Zareck Rocks 01:40, 18 September 2005 (EDT)
:Looks fascinating, Z. I was wondering if they would really let Roslin's character just die off when she's hitting her stride...at the same time, I was hoping they wouldn't, since cancer is cancer and, when as nasty as hers, is a fatal thing. But, the Cylons are good at bioengineering, so I can swallow this--to a point. Baltar's fix would have to rebuild damaged areas with good cells as well as destroying bad cells. Hey, I'm no doctor, but that's gotta hurt somehow. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:59, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
::Current speculation is that her disease is delayed, not cured, and that she'll again be near death by the end of the season. I don't have any source on that though. The notion of the amazing Dr. Baltar discovering a ''cure for cancer'' under the circumstances of the fleet is faintly ridiculous to me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:23, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
:: I wouldn't be surprised if there were some nasty side effects from whatever treatment Baltar (or whomever) devised. The whole "we have a cure for cancer" thing would go outside the boundaries of believability and realism, which Moore and crew are aiming for. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:11, 22 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I'll agree that an outright cure for cancer is very implausible considering all the conditions the fleet is under. It would also undermine the whole prophecy that it seems that the fleet is following. Yes Cylon biotech is advanced, but the colonials barely understand it at all. I could accept them finding a treatment that buys Roslin more time, but only as long as it's clear that it isn't a permament cure. --[[User:Wingsandsword|Wingsandsword]] 12:32, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

::: I'd say that was resolved, although it was a bit of a stretch...[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 23:18, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::: Rather eloquently stretched, at that. Seems like Cylon blood is a rather hardcore Chemo series, killing off the currently detectable malignancies. The root cause of the cancer is most likely still there, and working to re-proliferate through Roslin's system. As soon as the Cylon blood is processed and removed from her bloodstream, it should more than likely come back in full force (Which, unless I'm mistaken, takes roughly 120 days). --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 23:48, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: I put removed from her system, and not a cure on the page.--[[User:Shane|Shane]] 23:32, 20 January 2006 (EST)

User talk:Durandal

2006-01-08T23:50:51Z

Durandal: /* AHHH! */

== AHHH! ==

Welcome to the Wiki. Please don't go Rampant on us. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 10:12, 8 January 2006 (EST)
: I was born rampant. [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 13:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Wow. And I thought I was the only one who remembered the old "Marathon" games. I still have all 3 on my Mac and play them on business trips. "Frog blast the vent core!" never sounds so sweet. You guys know that the games are free to download now? Oh, and welcome to the Wiki, Durandal! --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:49, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:: Actually, I'm a 'Thon nut. My iBook is named Mjolnir X, my old *nix box is Traxus, my iPod is Leela... Need I go on? [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 13:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::Didn't this guy escape the universe and become a god or something? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 13:07, 8 January 2006 (EST)
::: Not quite a god, but close enough for colonial work. *grin* [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 13:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)

As any good Greco-Roman major knows, Durandal was Hector's sword at Troy, which passed down to Roland, knight of Chalemagne, in the aptly named "Song of Roland" (''Chanson de Roland''). Many of the Marathon computers had names taken from it. Bungee (the company that made Marathon) seems to agree in thinking that no one actually played these, as many plot points in Halo (also by Bungee) are kind of taken from it, i.e. (''Spoilers'') Cortana seems to be in the process of going rampant like Durandal. Sublte hints in Halo 1, full blown twist ending in Halo 2, etc. etc. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:21, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:I'm pretty sure you just made up that bit about Hector... --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:30, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:I'm not all that sure that Cortana is going rampant. Just call it a gut feeling. Meanwhile, yes, Halo, no matter what Bungie says, might as well be taking place in the same universe as 'Thon. [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 18:50, 8 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Raider (RDM)/Archive 1

2006-01-08T20:36:04Z

Durandal: typo

Is there anything at all from the re-imagined series about a early piloted raider, or is this just speculation? --Glenmcbeth

:Well, in the Mini-series before they engage the NEW Cylon Raiders for the first time, the pilots are chattering over their radios and say that no one has seen the Cylons in 40 years, so they don't know how their ships will look different now--->one guy points out (accurately) that the basic design should be that of a 'flying wing'; so it's implied they were thinking of the old ones. That, and I think a model of one of the old ones was seen in the Galactica-musuem; anyway, when they see the NEW Raiders for the first time, a pilot reacts in shock that "no one's flying it!"; the "head" part was too small to have a Cylon Centurion sitting inside of it flying it; this would seem to imply that the OLD Raiders were exactly like TOS ones: with a Cylon flying them. ---Ricimer, 22, Sept, 2005

This needs to be split into three articles - one for TOS, and one each for the piloted and autonomous RDM models. Anybody have ideas for article titles?

Additionally, should this be "Cylon Raider" or just "Raider"? We don't call them Colonial Vipers, after all. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:49, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:I agree that "Raider" should suffice. "Cylon Raider" might be necessary if we needed to distinguish it from a Colonial model. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:06, 2 January 2006 (EST)

Kahran wrote:
:''The new Raider is also succeptable to the same type of system-crashing virus which it has been known to transmit itself. ("[[Flight of the Pheonix]]")''
Not correct. First of all, we've never actually seen a raider transmit a virus. In the miniseries, they exploited a back door in the CNP to shut down the fleet directly; in "Valley of Darkness" we saw a virus but for logical reasons, it could not possibly have originated from outside the ship; and in "Flight of the Phoenix" we again saw a backdoor being exploited, this time in the other direction. Secondly, it is completely unsurprising that a Cylon agent such as Caprica-Valerii would have knowledge of how to access such a backdoor in her own people's technology. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:37, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I'm questioning a part of the reasoning here. In the miniseries, the raiders exploit the CNP backdoors and command shutdown of Colonial systems. Yes; no "virus" is transmitted there. But in "Scattered" we hear Gaeta specifically discussing an infiltration attempt--

::Gaeta: "Here they come. Cylons are hacking our network. Attempting to access our gateway." 

:Later, ''Galactica'' contracts a virus. Since ''Galactica's'' systems were never networked prior and never have used the CNP (which, combined with Gaeta's information, confirms CNP is still not installed), a virus is most likely to have come from the outside, that some ship in the Cylon attack body was at work in cracking ''Galactica's'' computer network and infecting it a'la the tactics used in Cylon War I. This does NOT necessarily mean that the fighters did it (although screen shots show Gaeta's firewall ''fail'' moments before he disconnects it). The Centurions that board could have installed it, but we have no information to confirm this, nor does this make sense. Such an infection would only affect maybe one subsystem since the Centurions could not gain access to all primary, now-again isolated subsystems. They likely could infect only one, and that infection could not spread. Same would be true if a Cylon agent were to install a virus; the isolated subsystems would make it too impossible to infect all at once without attracting attention (Gaeta's and the rest of CIC, that is). The Cylon attack body is the likely cause of the virus, since it affects many subsystems that are normally isolated and they had the means to infect through their hacking. A virus isn't "transmitted," but installed once infiltration is successful. Kahran's wording is incorrect. The sentence should say: The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated (Flight of the Phoenix)"--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:07, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::I'll reply backwards, since your last point was the most relevant one - "The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated" is true, but it's also ''obvious'', and therefore not worth stating. In fact, there is no computer system for which that statement is ''not'' true.

::Second, as regarding the events of "Valley of Darkness": Having two computers networked is not sufficient to make them vulnerable to attack. In order to receive a "virus" or any other sort of malware from off-ship, one of the components must have had a connection to the outside world via some sort of RF ("wireless") frequency. Thus, of the four computers Gaeta networked, at least one must already have been vulnerable.

::However, Galactica's entire design ethos was explicitly meant to separate vulnerable functions. There is no conceivable reason that any of the four systems Gaeta connected (FTL, Navigation, Fire control, Damage control) would need access to a wireless tranceiver. Therefore, the only plausible source for the virus was from ''within'' the ship itself. This does not present much of a contradiction - the simple fact of networking those four systems together would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:58, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::That's a good point, and one I purposefully addressed indirectly in the [[Computers]] article. We have to strike it up to one of three issues: (1) A retcon issue; (2) the mainframe computer (which may handle communications) is the most resistant to infiltration since it must ALWAYS have wireless up and running for fighter chat (DRADIS is managed through the Nav computer), or (3) the comm system is NOT computer-based or operated, but a hardwire system that transmits its data in a manner which cannot infect the mainframe in some manner. When other computers are connected to it via Gaeta's gateway (which also exposes the computers to the hardwired comm system network), the Cylons infiltrate by hacking the exposed ''gateway'' Gaeta created, not the computers. Yes, normally the other computers DON'T need or have access to the each other. But the ''gateway'' created was vulnerable because it's the comm system that's likely used to create one for the networking of the computers. Once the gateway was up, all but the comm system was vulnerable for reasons below.

:::In fact, a part of "Flight of the Phoenix" bears this speculation out: Gaeta has wiped the hard drives of ALL computers while Valerii is working on her unique virus in her head for the Cylon fleet. She transmits it out, but on what? All computers are down. This suggests that the comm systems (connected through her arm from the mainframe, which suggests it and the comm system also have a connection), while monitored through the mainframe, are not entirely computer-based since no computer was up to aid Valerii in hacking the enemy network AND transmitting the virus directly. Gaeta notes the transmission, indicating that comm was still up although the computers are still under restoration. In short, Cylons have never been able to hack ''Galactica's'' mainframe or comm systems, but once that ad hoc gateway was up, the other computers were exposed and the enemy had what they needed to hack in and infect. This doesn't explain the logic bomb, which I think is bad writing: how would it spread over a non-networked series of computers? It would mean that each computer had a copy of the bomb. But then, how would it activate? The comm/mainframe cannot be hacked and so cannot send the "execute" command to the logic bombs on the other computers, right? I smell contrivance, but its the best sense I can make of it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::I like the "Gateway attack" scenario (limited window created by Gaeta's jury-rigging), but it seems like all of these scenarios are running under the assumption that the virus/logic bomb infected the system from the outside. That may be the case (and Flight of the Phoenix seemed to prove that it could be transmitted that way, at least to the Raiders), but isn't it possible for ''Galactica'''s systems to have been infected from the ''inside''? With several potential humano-cylons on the loose inside the fleet, it may turn out that some of the computer problems have been done as part of an "inside job". I have NOTHING to support that, but I just wanted to raise the possibility (if it hadn't already been mentioned). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:06, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::This is what I've been saying all along. Am I not speaking english? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:29, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Didn't see that little bit right there at the end... "would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect" or perhaps I read it as an external attacker. I'm guessing that possibility is generally being overlooked in favor of the more straightforward external network attack. I hope that this angle is explored more and not left to speculation, as I don't think that it can be definitely proven how the system was compromised. (Which is what you've been saying this whole time. At least the message has spread one person further.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:46, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::I noted the possibility of Cylon agent infiltration, but again this requires the agent to individually infect ALL computers, or place an infection that won't replicate / install itself until/unless computers were networked. That's a whole lot of "if's". It's not that an agent infected the computers isn't possible, but based on what we've seen, it's not probable. We don't know if Biers is off Galactica, but she likely is. We don't know what the remaining agents look like. We do know that that Valerii said what would happen with the infection that did occur. It's even possible that her Galactica counterpart infected systems before she shot Adama. But that conflicts with what Gaeta watched during the jump calcs in Scattered. I just want some source that gives credibility to the internal hypothesis. (See, SV--we sysops are all having a nice, friendly discussion... :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:33, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::A virus could have been planted (through a hardline, onboard the ship) into one of the four networked systems during Scattered, and then spread to the other three in short order. I think it's actually fairly likely that there's an unknown cylon agent on Galactica - probably somebody of the lower ranks who we haven't seen, or else C-Valerii would have identified him.

::::::::For my sake, could you please try and restate the points in your second post, the one immediately after my reply? I have the feeling you're trying to say something interesting, but your wording is too confusing for me to untangle. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:56, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::Sure.
::::::::::* Since ''something'' has to be able to send out or match up command recognition codes, the mainframe and comm system work together, although comm (likely not a computer per se) can work independently of any computer system (note Valerii transmitting the virus code to the Cylon fleet in "Phoenix" although ''Galactica's'' computers are down).
::::::::::* I suspect the mainframe is inherently resistant to infection, or isolated from infection despite its role with the comm system. However, the mainframe's ''gateway'', which forms a network if other computers are connected, is not resistant. This is what the Cylons will hack into since the comm system is always up and routes data from it to the mainframe and the gateway. From the gateway a virus enters the most vulnerable computer and copies itself into others. Once situated, it begins its work.
::::::::::* The mainframe (which, as Doral said, may barely deserve the name of "computer") is highly resistant to infection or infiltration. It can also create firewalls to protect itself (Gaeta did this). It's analogous to the Mac OS X computers versus Windows computers today--both do the same, but one is designed well enough not to have infiltration issues as severely as the other. But even the mainframe can be rooted if given time; the Cylon virus adapts and learns.
::::::::::* An internal attack by a Cylon agent is possible but not probable. For what we know, all computers are centrally located in CIC. An agent would have to sit and hack or insert code into each system manually. This would require physical access that only a few have (this adds fire to the Gaeta-is-a-Cylon argument).
::::::::::* Barring plot complication we haven't seen, we are led (and only have evidence aired so far) that the virus attack was external. Otherwise, despite the point that humano-Cylons like to play with their prey, we'd think that the Cylons would have hacked ''Galactica's'' computers and killed the ship by now. Centurions never visited the CIC, so they're out as infectors, unless there was a fiber optic conduit for one of the closed computers they could've used to do so as they marauded the ship.
::::::::::* The "logic bomb" concept was specious; it couldn't travel through to the other computers (no network), and the system failures throughout the ship suggest that the computers fully control ''Galactica's'' subsystems like life support. Of course, the computers probably never fully cleaned, which makes more sense for system failures. Isn't that a network? Doesn't work. By the same token, for Cylons to activate the bomb from their fighter armada implies that Gaeta's ad-hoc network is up again and allowing hack commands to enter ''Galactica.'' BIG, freight-train sized science gaffe for the sake of plot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:01, 4 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::: For the sake of speculation, I'm going to state it as a given that the systems are not networked in any traditional sense and that the FTL, Navigation, Fire control, and Damage control computers are infected, and the Nav computer actually does manage DRADIS. Isn't it possible for the Cylons to have taken into account the fact that the ad-hoc network would be disabled before the virus could complete it's run, and build in contingencies for such an event? The DRADIS by nature would require a transceiver of some form. Even if that receiver is not designed to process such information, it would theoretically be possible send some sort of recognizable signal through it to the Nav computer to act as a trigger. Beyond that, the damage control computer would, by necessity, be connected to every system on the ship to monitor for failure conditions. In addition, the other three computers should be able to detect and/or set error condition markers for the systems they monitor and control. While nowhere near an efficient or traditional mode of communication, it could serve in a limited sense. The Cylons would be aware of, if not intimately acquainted with the designs for all battlestars thanks to Number Six's infiltration of the Defense Mainframe. Am I the only one who sees this as plausible? [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::Triggering a virus through DRADIS is plausible if it's ''already there'', but planting one that way is not. It must have come in through a comm channel (as Spencerian argues) or from inside the ship (as I do). None of the system failures in Flight of the Phoenix require a network to be in place anyway - once the logic bomb had infected the four sub-systems, it would procede to sabotage them independantly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:22, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::: As I said, I was making the fact that the systems were already infected a given. I was simply trying to explain the aparent coordination of the systems going down and how the Cylons kicked it into high gear, so to speak. However, the thought now comes to mind that, aside from the modifications ot CNP, the DRADIS control software could have also been modified pre-infection to enable it's use as a backdoor. (I know, reaching, but it floated to the top of my brain, so I go there...) [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:35, 8 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Raider (RDM)/Archive 1

2006-01-08T20:35:32Z

Durandal:

Is there anything at all from the re-imagined series about a early piloted raider, or is this just speculation? --Glenmcbeth

:Well, in the Mini-series before they engage the NEW Cylon Raiders for the first time, the pilots are chattering over their radios and say that no one has seen the Cylons in 40 years, so they don't know how their ships will look different now--->one guy points out (accurately) that the basic design should be that of a 'flying wing'; so it's implied they were thinking of the old ones. That, and I think a model of one of the old ones was seen in the Galactica-musuem; anyway, when they see the NEW Raiders for the first time, a pilot reacts in shock that "no one's flying it!"; the "head" part was too small to have a Cylon Centurion sitting inside of it flying it; this would seem to imply that the OLD Raiders were exactly like TOS ones: with a Cylon flying them. ---Ricimer, 22, Sept, 2005

This needs to be split into three articles - one for TOS, and one each for the piloted and autonomous RDM models. Anybody have ideas for article titles?

Additionally, should this be "Cylon Raider" or just "Raider"? We don't call them Colonial Vipers, after all. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:49, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:I agree that "Raider" should suffice. "Cylon Raider" might be necessary if we needed to distinguish it from a Colonial model. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:06, 2 January 2006 (EST)

Kahran wrote:
:''The new Raider is also succeptable to the same type of system-crashing virus which it has been known to transmit itself. ("[[Flight of the Pheonix]]")''
Not correct. First of all, we've never actually seen a raider transmit a virus. In the miniseries, they exploited a back door in the CNP to shut down the fleet directly; in "Valley of Darkness" we saw a virus but for logical reasons, it could not possibly have originated from outside the ship; and in "Flight of the Phoenix" we again saw a backdoor being exploited, this time in the other direction. Secondly, it is completely unsurprising that a Cylon agent such as Caprica-Valerii would have knowledge of how to access such a backdoor in her own people's technology. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:37, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I'm questioning a part of the reasoning here. In the miniseries, the raiders exploit the CNP backdoors and command shutdown of Colonial systems. Yes; no "virus" is transmitted there. But in "Scattered" we hear Gaeta specifically discussing an infiltration attempt--

::Gaeta: "Here they come. Cylons are hacking our network. Attempting to access our gateway." 

:Later, ''Galactica'' contracts a virus. Since ''Galactica's'' systems were never networked prior and never have used the CNP (which, combined with Gaeta's information, confirms CNP is still not installed), a virus is most likely to have come from the outside, that some ship in the Cylon attack body was at work in cracking ''Galactica's'' computer network and infecting it a'la the tactics used in Cylon War I. This does NOT necessarily mean that the fighters did it (although screen shots show Gaeta's firewall ''fail'' moments before he disconnects it). The Centurions that board could have installed it, but we have no information to confirm this, nor does this make sense. Such an infection would only affect maybe one subsystem since the Centurions could not gain access to all primary, now-again isolated subsystems. They likely could infect only one, and that infection could not spread. Same would be true if a Cylon agent were to install a virus; the isolated subsystems would make it too impossible to infect all at once without attracting attention (Gaeta's and the rest of CIC, that is). The Cylon attack body is the likely cause of the virus, since it affects many subsystems that are normally isolated and they had the means to infect through their hacking. A virus isn't "transmitted," but installed once infiltration is successful. Kahran's wording is incorrect. The sentence should say: The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated (Flight of the Phoenix)"--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:07, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::I'll reply backwards, since your last point was the most relevant one - "The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated" is true, but it's also ''obvious'', and therefore not worth stating. In fact, there is no computer system for which that statement is ''not'' true.

::Second, as regarding the events of "Valley of Darkness": Having two computers networked is not sufficient to make them vulnerable to attack. In order to receive a "virus" or any other sort of malware from off-ship, one of the components must have had a connection to the outside world via some sort of RF ("wireless") frequency. Thus, of the four computers Gaeta networked, at least one must already have been vulnerable.

::However, Galactica's entire design ethos was explicitly meant to separate vulnerable functions. There is no conceivable reason that any of the four systems Gaeta connected (FTL, Navigation, Fire control, Damage control) would need access to a wireless tranceiver. Therefore, the only plausible source for the virus was from ''within'' the ship itself. This does not present much of a contradiction - the simple fact of networking those four systems together would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:58, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::That's a good point, and one I purposefully addressed indirectly in the [[Computers]] article. We have to strike it up to one of three issues: (1) A retcon issue; (2) the mainframe computer (which may handle communications) is the most resistant to infiltration since it must ALWAYS have wireless up and running for fighter chat (DRADIS is managed through the Nav computer), or (3) the comm system is NOT computer-based or operated, but a hardwire system that transmits its data in a manner which cannot infect the mainframe in some manner. When other computers are connected to it via Gaeta's gateway (which also exposes the computers to the hardwired comm system network), the Cylons infiltrate by hacking the exposed ''gateway'' Gaeta created, not the computers. Yes, normally the other computers DON'T need or have access to the each other. But the ''gateway'' created was vulnerable because it's the comm system that's likely used to create one for the networking of the computers. Once the gateway was up, all but the comm system was vulnerable for reasons below.

:::In fact, a part of "Flight of the Phoenix" bears this speculation out: Gaeta has wiped the hard drives of ALL computers while Valerii is working on her unique virus in her head for the Cylon fleet. She transmits it out, but on what? All computers are down. This suggests that the comm systems (connected through her arm from the mainframe, which suggests it and the comm system also have a connection), while monitored through the mainframe, are not entirely computer-based since no computer was up to aid Valerii in hacking the enemy network AND transmitting the virus directly. Gaeta notes the transmission, indicating that comm was still up although the computers are still under restoration. In short, Cylons have never been able to hack ''Galactica's'' mainframe or comm systems, but once that ad hoc gateway was up, the other computers were exposed and the enemy had what they needed to hack in and infect. This doesn't explain the logic bomb, which I think is bad writing: how would it spread over a non-networked series of computers? It would mean that each computer had a copy of the bomb. But then, how would it activate? The comm/mainframe cannot be hacked and so cannot send the "execute" command to the logic bombs on the other computers, right? I smell contrivance, but its the best sense I can make of it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::I like the "Gateway attack" scenario (limited window created by Gaeta's jury-rigging), but it seems like all of these scenarios are running under the assumption that the virus/logic bomb infected the system from the outside. That may be the case (and Flight of the Phoenix seemed to prove that it could be transmitted that way, at least to the Raiders), but isn't it possible for ''Galactica'''s systems to have been infected from the ''inside''? With several potential humano-cylons on the loose inside the fleet, it may turn out that some of the computer problems have been done as part of an "inside job". I have NOTHING to support that, but I just wanted to raise the possibility (if it hadn't already been mentioned). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:06, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::This is what I've been saying all along. Am I not speaking english? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:29, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Didn't see that little bit right there at the end... "would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect" or perhaps I read it as an external attacker. I'm guessing that possibility is generally being overlooked in favor of the more straightforward external network attack. I hope that this angle is explored more and not left to speculation, as I don't think that it can be definitely proven how the system was compromised. (Which is what you've been saying this whole time. At least the message has spread one person further.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:46, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::I noted the possibility of Cylon agent infiltration, but again this requires the agent to individually infect ALL computers, or place an infection that won't replicate / install itself until/unless computers were networked. That's a whole lot of "if's". It's not that an agent infected the computers isn't possible, but based on what we've seen, it's not probable. We don't know if Biers is off Galactica, but she likely is. We don't know what the remaining agents look like. We do know that that Valerii said what would happen with the infection that did occur. It's even possible that her Galactica counterpart infected systems before she shot Adama. But that conflicts with what Gaeta watched during the jump calcs in Scattered. I just want some source that gives credibility to the internal hypothesis. (See, SV--we sysops are all having a nice, friendly discussion... :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:33, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::A virus could have been planted (through a hardline, onboard the ship) into one of the four networked systems during Scattered, and then spread to the other three in short order. I think it's actually fairly likely that there's an unknown cylon agent on Galactica - probably somebody of the lower ranks who we haven't seen, or else C-Valerii would have identified him.

::::::::For my sake, could you please try and restate the points in your second post, the one immediately after my reply? I have the feeling you're trying to say something interesting, but your wording is too confusing for me to untangle. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:56, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::Sure.
::::::::::* Since ''something'' has to be able to send out or match up command recognition codes, the mainframe and comm system work together, although comm (likely not a computer per se) can work independently of any computer system (note Valerii transmitting the virus code to the Cylon fleet in "Phoenix" although ''Galactica's'' computers are down).
::::::::::* I suspect the mainframe is inherently resistant to infection, or isolated from infection despite its role with the comm system. However, the mainframe's ''gateway'', which forms a network if other computers are connected, is not resistant. This is what the Cylons will hack into since the comm system is always up and routes data from it to the mainframe and the gateway. From the gateway a virus enters the most vulnerable computer and copies itself into others. Once situated, it begins its work.
::::::::::* The mainframe (which, as Doral said, may barely deserve the name of "computer") is highly resistant to infection or infiltration. It can also create firewalls to protect itself (Gaeta did this). It's analogous to the Mac OS X computers versus Windows computers today--both do the same, but one is designed well enough not to have infiltration issues as severely as the other. But even the mainframe can be rooted if given time; the Cylon virus adapts and learns.
::::::::::* An internal attack by a Cylon agent is possible but not probable. For what we know, all computers are centrally located in CIC. An agent would have to sit and hack or insert code into each system manually. This would require physical access that only a few have (this adds fire to the Gaeta-is-a-Cylon argument).
::::::::::* Barring plot complication we haven't seen, we are led (and only have evidence aired so far) that the virus attack was external. Otherwise, despite the point that humano-Cylons like to play with their prey, we'd think that the Cylons would have hacked ''Galactica's'' computers and killed the ship by now. Centurions never visited the CIC, so they're out as infectors, unless there was a fiber optic conduit for one of the closed computers they could've used to do so as they marauded the ship.
::::::::::* The "logic bomb" concept was specious; it couldn't travel through to the other computers (no network), and the system failures throughout the ship suggest that the computers fully control ''Galactica's'' subsystems like life support. Of course, the computers probably never fully cleaned, which makes more sense for system failures. Isn't that a network? Doesn't work. By the same token, for Cylons to activate the bomb from their fighter armada implies that Gaeta's ad-hoc network is up again and allowing hack commands to enter ''Galactica.'' BIG, freight-train sized science gaffe for the sake of plot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:01, 4 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::: For the sake of speculation, I'm going to state it as a given that the systems are not networked in any traditional sense and that the FTL, Navigation, Fire control, and Damage control computers are infected, and the Nav computer actually does manage DRADIS. Isn't it possible for the Cylons to have taken into account the fact that the ad-hoc network would be disabled before the virus could complete it's run, and build in contingencies for such an event? The DRADIS by nature would require a transceiver of some form. Even if that receiver is not designed to process such information, it would theoretically be possible send some sort of recognizable signal through it to the Nav computer to act as a trigger. Beyond that, the damage control computer would, by necessity, be connected to every system on the ship to monitor for failure conditions. In addition, the other three computers should be able to detect and/or set error condition markers for the systems they monitor and control. While nowhere near an efficient or traditional mode of communication, it could serve in a limited sense. The Cylons would be aware of, if not intimately acquainted with the designs for all battlestars thanks to Number Six's infiltration of the Defense Mainframe. Am I the only one who sees this as plausible? [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::Triggering a virus through DRADIS is plausible if it's ''already there'', but planting one that way is not. It must have come in through a comm channel (as Spencerian argues) or from inside the ship (as I do). None of the system failures in Flight of the Phoenix require a network to be in place anyway - once the logic bomb had infected the four sub-systems, it would procede to sabotage them independantly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:22, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::::::::: As I said, I was making the fact that the systems were already infected a given. I was simply trying to explain the aparent coordination of the systems going down and how the Cylons kicked it into high gear, so to speak. However, the thought now comes to mind that, aside from the modifications ot CNP, the DRADIS control software could have also been modified pre-infection to enable it's use as a backdoor. (I know, reaching, but it floated to the top of my brain, so I go there... [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:35, 8 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Raider (RDM)/Archive 1

2006-01-08T20:15:58Z

Durandal:

Talk:Raider (RDM)/Archive 1

2006-01-08T20:15:22Z

Durandal:

Is there anything at all from the re-imagined series about a early piloted raider, or is this just speculation? --Glenmcbeth

:Well, in the Mini-series before they engage the NEW Cylon Raiders for the first time, the pilots are chattering over their radios and say that no one has seen the Cylons in 40 years, so they don't know how their ships will look different now--->one guy points out (accurately) that the basic design should be that of a 'flying wing'; so it's implied they were thinking of the old ones. That, and I think a model of one of the old ones was seen in the Galactica-musuem; anyway, when they see the NEW Raiders for the first time, a pilot reacts in shock that "no one's flying it!"; the "head" part was too small to have a Cylon Centurion sitting inside of it flying it; this would seem to imply that the OLD Raiders were exactly like TOS ones: with a Cylon flying them. ---Ricimer, 22, Sept, 2005

This needs to be split into three articles - one for TOS, and one each for the piloted and autonomous RDM models. Anybody have ideas for article titles?

Additionally, should this be "Cylon Raider" or just "Raider"? We don't call them Colonial Vipers, after all. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:49, 2 January 2006 (EST)

:I agree that "Raider" should suffice. "Cylon Raider" might be necessary if we needed to distinguish it from a Colonial model. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:06, 2 January 2006 (EST)

Kahran wrote:
:''The new Raider is also succeptable to the same type of system-crashing virus which it has been known to transmit itself. ("[[Flight of the Pheonix]]")''
Not correct. First of all, we've never actually seen a raider transmit a virus. In the miniseries, they exploited a back door in the CNP to shut down the fleet directly; in "Valley of Darkness" we saw a virus but for logical reasons, it could not possibly have originated from outside the ship; and in "Flight of the Phoenix" we again saw a backdoor being exploited, this time in the other direction. Secondly, it is completely unsurprising that a Cylon agent such as Caprica-Valerii would have knowledge of how to access such a backdoor in her own people's technology. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:37, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I'm questioning a part of the reasoning here. In the miniseries, the raiders exploit the CNP backdoors and command shutdown of Colonial systems. Yes; no "virus" is transmitted there. But in "Scattered" we hear Gaeta specifically discussing an infiltration attempt--

::Gaeta: "Here they come. Cylons are hacking our network. Attempting to access our gateway." 

:Later, ''Galactica'' contracts a virus. Since ''Galactica's'' systems were never networked prior and never have used the CNP (which, combined with Gaeta's information, confirms CNP is still not installed), a virus is most likely to have come from the outside, that some ship in the Cylon attack body was at work in cracking ''Galactica's'' computer network and infecting it a'la the tactics used in Cylon War I. This does NOT necessarily mean that the fighters did it (although screen shots show Gaeta's firewall ''fail'' moments before he disconnects it). The Centurions that board could have installed it, but we have no information to confirm this, nor does this make sense. Such an infection would only affect maybe one subsystem since the Centurions could not gain access to all primary, now-again isolated subsystems. They likely could infect only one, and that infection could not spread. Same would be true if a Cylon agent were to install a virus; the isolated subsystems would make it too impossible to infect all at once without attracting attention (Gaeta's and the rest of CIC, that is). The Cylon attack body is the likely cause of the virus, since it affects many subsystems that are normally isolated and they had the means to infect through their hacking. A virus isn't "transmitted," but installed once infiltration is successful. Kahran's wording is incorrect. The sentence should say: The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated (Flight of the Phoenix)"--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:07, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::I'll reply backwards, since your last point was the most relevant one - "The new Raider is subceptible to system-crashing viruses if the fighter's subsystems themselves are infiltrated" is true, but it's also ''obvious'', and therefore not worth stating. In fact, there is no computer system for which that statement is ''not'' true.

::Second, as regarding the events of "Valley of Darkness": Having two computers networked is not sufficient to make them vulnerable to attack. In order to receive a "virus" or any other sort of malware from off-ship, one of the components must have had a connection to the outside world via some sort of RF ("wireless") frequency. Thus, of the four computers Gaeta networked, at least one must already have been vulnerable.

::However, Galactica's entire design ethos was explicitly meant to separate vulnerable functions. There is no conceivable reason that any of the four systems Gaeta connected (FTL, Navigation, Fire control, Damage control) would need access to a wireless tranceiver. Therefore, the only plausible source for the virus was from ''within'' the ship itself. This does not present much of a contradiction - the simple fact of networking those four systems together would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:58, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::That's a good point, and one I purposefully addressed indirectly in the [[Computers]] article. We have to strike it up to one of three issues: (1) A retcon issue; (2) the mainframe computer (which may handle communications) is the most resistant to infiltration since it must ALWAYS have wireless up and running for fighter chat (DRADIS is managed through the Nav computer), or (3) the comm system is NOT computer-based or operated, but a hardwire system that transmits its data in a manner which cannot infect the mainframe in some manner. When other computers are connected to it via Gaeta's gateway (which also exposes the computers to the hardwired comm system network), the Cylons infiltrate by hacking the exposed ''gateway'' Gaeta created, not the computers. Yes, normally the other computers DON'T need or have access to the each other. But the ''gateway'' created was vulnerable because it's the comm system that's likely used to create one for the networking of the computers. Once the gateway was up, all but the comm system was vulnerable for reasons below.

:::In fact, a part of "Flight of the Phoenix" bears this speculation out: Gaeta has wiped the hard drives of ALL computers while Valerii is working on her unique virus in her head for the Cylon fleet. She transmits it out, but on what? All computers are down. This suggests that the comm systems (connected through her arm from the mainframe, which suggests it and the comm system also have a connection), while monitored through the mainframe, are not entirely computer-based since no computer was up to aid Valerii in hacking the enemy network AND transmitting the virus directly. Gaeta notes the transmission, indicating that comm was still up although the computers are still under restoration. In short, Cylons have never been able to hack ''Galactica's'' mainframe or comm systems, but once that ad hoc gateway was up, the other computers were exposed and the enemy had what they needed to hack in and infect. This doesn't explain the logic bomb, which I think is bad writing: how would it spread over a non-networked series of computers? It would mean that each computer had a copy of the bomb. But then, how would it activate? The comm/mainframe cannot be hacked and so cannot send the "execute" command to the logic bombs on the other computers, right? I smell contrivance, but its the best sense I can make of it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::I like the "Gateway attack" scenario (limited window created by Gaeta's jury-rigging), but it seems like all of these scenarios are running under the assumption that the virus/logic bomb infected the system from the outside. That may be the case (and Flight of the Phoenix seemed to prove that it could be transmitted that way, at least to the Raiders), but isn't it possible for ''Galactica'''s systems to have been infected from the ''inside''? With several potential humano-cylons on the loose inside the fleet, it may turn out that some of the computer problems have been done as part of an "inside job". I have NOTHING to support that, but I just wanted to raise the possibility (if it hadn't already been mentioned). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:06, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::This is what I've been saying all along. Am I not speaking english? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:29, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Didn't see that little bit right there at the end... "would be a great moment of opportunity for an infiltrator to plant a virus for maximum effect" or perhaps I read it as an external attacker. I'm guessing that possibility is generally being overlooked in favor of the more straightforward external network attack. I hope that this angle is explored more and not left to speculation, as I don't think that it can be definitely proven how the system was compromised. (Which is what you've been saying this whole time. At least the message has spread one person further.) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:46, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::I noted the possibility of Cylon agent infiltration, but again this requires the agent to individually infect ALL computers, or place an infection that won't replicate / install itself until/unless computers were networked. That's a whole lot of "if's". It's not that an agent infected the computers isn't possible, but based on what we've seen, it's not probable. We don't know if Biers is off Galactica, but she likely is. We don't know what the remaining agents look like. We do know that that Valerii said what would happen with the infection that did occur. It's even possible that her Galactica counterpart infected systems before she shot Adama. But that conflicts with what Gaeta watched during the jump calcs in Scattered. I just want some source that gives credibility to the internal hypothesis. (See, SV--we sysops are all having a nice, friendly discussion... :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:33, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::A virus could have been planted (through a hardline, onboard the ship) into one of the four networked systems during Scattered, and then spread to the other three in short order. I think it's actually fairly likely that there's an unknown cylon agent on Galactica - probably somebody of the lower ranks who we haven't seen, or else C-Valerii would have identified him.

::::::::For my sake, could you please try and restate the points in your second post, the one immediately after my reply? I have the feeling you're trying to say something interesting, but your wording is too confusing for me to untangle. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:56, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::Sure.
::::::::::* Since ''something'' has to be able to send out or match up command recognition codes, the mainframe and comm system work together, although comm (likely not a computer per se) can work independently of any computer system (note Valerii transmitting the virus code to the Cylon fleet in "Phoenix" although ''Galactica's'' computers are down).
::::::::::* I suspect the mainframe is inherently resistant to infection, or isolated from infection despite its role with the comm system. However, the mainframe's ''gateway'', which forms a network if other computers are connected, is not resistant. This is what the Cylons will hack into since the comm system is always up and routes data from it to the mainframe and the gateway. From the gateway a virus enters the most vulnerable computer and copies itself into others. Once situated, it begins its work.
::::::::::* The mainframe (which, as Doral said, may barely deserve the name of "computer") is highly resistant to infection or infiltration. It can also create firewalls to protect itself (Gaeta did this). It's analogous to the Mac OS X computers versus Windows computers today--both do the same, but one is designed well enough not to have infiltration issues as severely as the other. But even the mainframe can be rooted if given time; the Cylon virus adapts and learns.
::::::::::* An internal attack by a Cylon agent is possible but not probable. For what we know, all computers are centrally located in CIC. An agent would have to sit and hack or insert code into each system manually. This would require physical access that only a few have (this adds fire to the Gaeta-is-a-Cylon argument).
::::::::::* Barring plot complication we haven't seen, we are led (and only have evidence aired so far) that the virus attack was external. Otherwise, despite the point that humano-Cylons like to play with their prey, we'd think that the Cylons would have hacked ''Galactica's'' computers and killed the ship by now. Centurions never visited the CIC, so they're out as infectors, unless there was a fiber optic conduit for one of the closed computers they could've used to do so as they marauded the ship.
::::::::::* The "logic bomb" concept was specious; it couldn't travel through to the other computers (no network), and the system failures throughout the ship suggest that the computers fully control ''Galactica's'' subsystems like life support. Of course, the computers probably never fully cleaned, which makes more sense for system failures. Isn't that a network? Doesn't work. By the same token, for Cylons to activate the bomb from their fighter armada implies that Gaeta's ad-hoc network is up again and allowing hack commands to enter ''Galactica.'' BIG, freight-train sized science gaffe for the sake of plot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:01, 4 January 2006 (EST)
::::::::::: For the sake of speculation, I'm going to state it as a given that the systems are not networked in any traditional sense and that the FTL, Navigation, Fire control, and Damage control computers are infected, and the Nav computer actually does manage DRADIS. Isn't it possible for the Cylons to have taken into account the fact that the ad-hoc network would be disabled before the virus could complete it's run, and build in contingencies for such an event? The DRADIS by nature would require a transceiver of some form. Even if that receiver is not designed to process such information, it would theoretically be possible send some sort of recognizable signal through it to the Nav computer to act as a trigger. Beyond that, the damage control computer would, by necessity, be connected to every system on the ship to monitor for failure conditions. In addition, the other three computers should be able to detect and/or set error condition markers for the systems they monitor and control. While nowhere near an efficient or traditional mode of communication, it could serve in a limited sense. The Cylons would be aware of, if not intimately acquainted with the designs for all battlestars thanks to Number Six's infiltration of the Defense Mainframe. Am I the only one who sees this as plausible? [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 15:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)

Battlestar Wiki talk:Requested Images

2006-01-08T18:59:15Z

Durandal:

Six's glowey-spine bit from miniseries now uploaded as 6spine-ms.jpg.
[[Image:6spine-ms.jpg]]

Do with it what you will

[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 13:59, 8 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Science in the Re-imagined Series/Archive 1

2006-01-08T18:25:49Z

Durandal: /* Nukes */

== Time for a Technobabble Exam ==

This article came out of my head as watched the mini-series for the umpteenth time after wondering if the writers really took the time to know what numbers they're having the characters say and if they mean anything real. I'm neither a math expert or physics expert, so do check my math. I've started on mini-series datum, and as others rewatch season 1 and 2, we'll be able to add more on distances, speeds, weapons, and the like. Some of this information may already be on other pages, but aren't expanded or elaborated.

Perhaps someone knows of what earthly materials ''Galactica'' would have to be made of to withstand the compressive energies of a kiloton nuclear warhead without major structural deformity (Mini-Series). This is meant to be a page of speculation based on points from the series, so have fun with it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:35, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:I'm a little confused. Based on your analysis we know Colonial One's distance from Caprica, not Galactica's, so how can we measure Colonial One's speed?

:Galactica is at point A. Caprica is at point C. Colonial One is at point B between them, 30 light-minutes from point C and 5.5 ship-hours from point A. I don't see how we can solve for Colonial One's velocity with this data.

:Roslin's conversation with Jack (which I believed survived its way to the final cut) was in real-time, however, so we can probably assume that they'd made it all the way back to Caprica by the time the nukes went off.

:Oh, one last thing - if BSG follows real-world physics, the fastest way to get somewhere in space is to accelerate at full capacity until you're halfway to your destination, then flip around and decelerate the rest of the distance. Since there's no air resistance, there isn't any "top speed" to contend with - a ship's speed would only be limited by its fuel stores and maximum acceleration. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::I did fudge Colonal One's location, assuming it and Caprica are almost at the same location to work out the travel times and distance. Even if Colonial One is as much as 30 light-minutes out, I may be able to reverse-calculate that amount of distance and recompute the time. (Damn. Now I sound like a character from Star Trek. Where's my heisenberg compensator!?) Yes, Jack's conversation was in the final cut, although there was a draft scene where we see him on Caprica in the hellish bombardment result, which wasn't in the aired show. The ship was 3 hours from Caprica when news of the attacks reached them, and I would hope that the ship stopped their approach at that point or close to it. Since wireless is speed-of-light communications. either the writers screwed up since 3 hours from Caprica at my calculated cruise speed would mean that a wireless message exchange would be over 120 million miles, and that would take it about 12 minutes between sends.

::Or, Colonial One was close to Caprica, but that would also mean that it was fodder--we saw Valerii's Raptor near Caprica and descending, and the space around the planet was filled with basestars and a dead battlestar. In Star Trek, the writers explain off relativistic communications with "subspace", but I am ''not'' going there. It's more likely that the ship was close enough for wireless...maybe about twice the distance from our Earth to our moon, or about 500,000 miles. That would make for a 4 second delay, not so much of a comm delay (and can be written off when the viewer see the conversation), but far enough away to keep the Cylon armada there from noticing right off on DRADIS (though obviously a fighter or two did). After looking at my DVD, that idea is most probable beyond saying the writers screwed up.

::Yep, all ships, including Vipers, have to brake once inertia kicks in. We see lots of instances in the mini-series of what happens when the rules of inertia are adhered--or ignored. Something else to add and incorporate. And, then, there's that ''artificial gravity'' thing that needs explainin'. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:07, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::Just reviewed that scene, and your calculations seem sound. Billy was stating the time delay between Galactica and Caprica, not Colonial One's current location, and the flight was obviously just getting underway. Furthermore, the delay between the nuclear attacks and Adama's report ("preliminary reports indicate a thermonuclear device in the fifty megaton range was detonated over caprica city thirty minutes ago") makes it clear that it's a 30-minute delay each way, not round trip.
:::One more thing, though. Galactica is clearly already en route to Caprica - Adama indicates that they're on their way home when he talks to Tigh, and it can be seen in space with its sublight engines active. This complicates their rendezvous substantially, since Colonial One would have to reverse course and match speed with Galactica in order to avoid simply crossing paths. On the other hand, it's apparently not accelerating there as fast as Colonial One is capable of, or else that ship's return trip would be impossible. It may be fair to consider it a stationary object. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:35, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::: This is a neat page. I just found it. Anyway, I think, if I were the interplanetary equivalent of the FAA, I'd determine that civillian ships should obey certain speedlimits (excluding emergency craft, I guess, with siren-equivalents going), and military craft to certain, slightly higher, speed limits (except in times of war). So, this would mean that people wouldn't generally be accellerating half way to a destination and decellerating the other half.

:::: Also, since ''Galactica'''s crew knows she'll be rendesvousing with various civillian craft, she's probably doing some zig-zagging to meet up with them, so not travelling in a straight line. Keep in mind, she's a destination for an event. Getting to Caprica isn't probably very high on the priority list until after the ceremony.

:::: I wish the writer's had done the math. It looks, to me, like they didn't, really. I mean--I can understand an aversion to getting into the nitty-gritty details, but important things like a kind of average acceleration speed seem handy to have.

:::: Lastly, a few loose ends I have. Do you guys think wireless is basically just radio and, thus, works at the speed of light? Have you noticed that smaller craft with huge aft-oriented engines have little problem doing quick-decelleration maneuvers without flipping around (eg. the Marine boarding Raptors in ''[[Bastille Day]]'')? Does anyone have any thoughts about the feasability of what we've seen the Vipers do as far as all the flipping and turning and such? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:51, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::All things considered, I think they did pretty good in some parts of math. Based on the early Mini-Series script floating around (where it specifically indicates the term wireless and that it was their term for radio), and given that its use is identical to what is used in the Mini-Series, yes, wireless is radio. On Galactica's movement: for purposes of simplicity, Gods, yes, please keep her a stationary object for the equations. From a travel standpoint, it would be more sensible to keep Galactica in one place since a civilian transport wouldn't want to make changes in course at FTL speed 0.11. She is likely moving a little, but nowhere near Colonial Heavy 798's speeds, and in no rush to get to Caprica. On small ships: I think the Viper physics model is great. Sometimes the Raptor movement seems a bit too Star Wars, I agree, but I'll have to pay more attention to that to make a better assessment. I think I'm going to tackle that ''artificial gravity'' matter today--it's been stewing in my head. And has anyone noticed that Galactica's sublight engines are ALWAYS on, even if she appears stationary? I think its a beautiful effect, but I get distracted by it when I watch the fight at the Anchorage. Here's the battlestar, now dorsal up and flipped, but its' engines still look like they're burning, and hard. Don't know what's up with that. Oh, and I guess Vipers can manage high sublight speeds like a civilian transport, since Colonial Heavy was escorted back to Caprica and the last Mark VII squadron was en route back as well. There's the matter of keeping humans from turning to goo at these speeds, but I'll work on it until my head explodes (shouldn't be too long). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:54, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::: People not gooifying is probably tied into artificial gravity. However, I imagine that smaller craft don't have the gravity equipment (if I were designing them, I'd probably leave it off to lower mass) since Adama talks about a tight turn meaning Kara would have to be pulling Gs like fighter pilots today do... So either the gravity equipment can generate a G, but not counter inertia (which would mean splat), or it's not included in the fighters. However, Raptors would seem to have it, since everyone always stands on the floor in those things, even in orbit over Kobol before being rammed by Raptors. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:08, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::::Remember the scene where Adama jokingly tells Billy that they're having good luck in getting to Kobol as both are pressed into their descending Raptor by 5 or 6 Gs? I agree, the artificial gravity compensates as if you were in a 1 G situation. I bet the Vipers are weightless to save the weight of an artificial gravity device, however, and I've yet to recall where a pilot takes something off and drops it inside a fighter. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:18, 9 December 2005 (EST)

Anyone given any thought to the time dilation caused by movement at such speeds? Might make for some interesting dialogue in an episode, if anything. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 21:22, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:If I understand my relativistic principles, sublight flight would have a slight relativistic effect. In the case of lightspeed, there is no relativistic effect as ships do not actually move at light speed, but move from one location to another--apparent FTL. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable to calculate the actual relativistic effects on, say, ''Colonial One's'' occupants at their cruise speed. Maybe someone else is knowledgeable. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:33, 31 December 2005 (EST)

==Artificial Gravity==
Be careful not to confuse Naturalistic SF with Hard SF. They have little to do with one another. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:09, 9 December 2005 (EST)
:Of course, in fact, they are quite opposite, but NSF takes a few elements from hard SF, though not in the extreme that hard SF defines itself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:18, 9 December 2005 (EST)

==Sublight vs. FTL==
The fact that Colonial One, an FTL-capable ship, made its way from Caprica to Galactica at Sublight tells us something else - 5.5 hours of engine burn consume less energy than a hyperspace jump to cover the same distance. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:58, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:Not necessarily. Two reasons why--first, FTL might not have been an option: either it was illegal, seen as too dangerous for travel within a system, deemed too uncomfortable for passengers, or pilots simply weren't trained to calculate a jump, any of which are potentially valid given Tigh's comment that it had been 20 years since a jump. Of course, that may raise a question as to why the drive was installed in the first place. (Regulations? Holdover from the first war?) Secondly, it seems unrealistic that it would take more energy to jump that small distance than to burn the fuel because the entire fleet can jump like 230 times in a row ([[33]]) without any refueling problems or the like. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 21:19, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:I think that FTL flight is generally quite disconcerting to passengers, judging from Cally's take on it when we see ''Galactica'' make its first Jump in the Miniseries. So, sublight is preferable in most instances. I cannot determine from any episodes whether the fuel consumption is more or less when going at sublight over FTL. The comfort level is the most likely reason. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:52, 1 January 2006 (EST)

==Nukes==
If the energy density of [[Tylium]] is so much greater than fissile materials and has the added benefit of producing no fallout, and requiring no sophisticated trigger mechanism, why do the Colonials use nuclear warheads on their missiles rather than tylium bombs? Nuclear fallout has desirable side effects against organic targets, which explains Cylon use thereof, but what advantage does it offer human forces?

:(Obviously, in real life it's a question of storytelling:
:"For instance, in the Galactica mini-series, when the Cylons attack the colonists, they attack them with thermonuclear weapons. They don't attack them with lasers and photon torpedoes, and strange things that don't exist.
:"When you see a planet nuked, and you see those mushroom clouds, and hear about the destruction of entire cities by nuclear weapons, that is a much more terrifying and frightening idea than if you're saying fifteen thousand photon torpedoes were launched at Caprica. One is real and one is not." [http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/news/cult/2004/02/20/9599.shtml]
:"There would not be 'photon torpedoes' but instead nuclear missiles, because nukes are real and thus are frightening." [http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/magazine/17GALACTICA.html]
:"We use nukes. And these days, that’s truly scary. You use photon torpedoes and the audience goes 'oh, okay. shrug.'" [http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA513174.html?display=Top+Stories]) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:09, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:Nukes have the desireable side effect of creating an electromagnetic pulse which disrupts all (currently) known forms of electronics. --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:41, 8 January 2006 (EST)
: And a side note, now that I think of it. Considering the supposed rarity of tylium, Nukes are also much easier to produce and much less of a waste of a valuable resource. [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 13:12, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::You hit the nail on the head, Durandal. If you can, work up what you just said and add it to the article! --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::: Does not really fit in this article, whithout generating a new section for such a point. If anyone has a better idea for placement, I'm all ears. [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 13:25, 8 January 2006 (EST)

== Landings & Gravity ==

Unless I am completely mistaken, aside from whatever may be the 'standard' artifical gravity source aboard Galactica, it is explicitly stated that the actual landing pads in the flight pods rely upon magnitism to hold craft in place en route to the hanger.
:"Viper Four-five-zero, skids down, mag-lock secure." (Kelly to Apollo upon touchdown aproximately 22 minutes into the miniseries)
[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:56, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Correct. On the flight deck, magnetism is used to secure landing Vipers. But in the hangar deck and manned areas of the ship, something else is used, since the humans (and many other virtually non-magnetic items in CIC and elsewhere) are kept from floating. It's an unexplained conumdrum that right now is just a writing convenience. If the article appears to be vague in that topic, do modify it. I created and generated much of this article, and sometimes I can get too wordy and the point gets muddled. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:19, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:: I actually wrote this bit in response to note 2, which states it as a possibility as opposed to cannon-fact. I'm not quite sure HOW to rewrite it, unfortunately... [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 13:23, 8 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Science in the Re-imagined Series/Archive 1

2006-01-08T18:23:33Z

Durandal: /* Landings & Gravity */

== Time for a Technobabble Exam ==

This article came out of my head as watched the mini-series for the umpteenth time after wondering if the writers really took the time to know what numbers they're having the characters say and if they mean anything real. I'm neither a math expert or physics expert, so do check my math. I've started on mini-series datum, and as others rewatch season 1 and 2, we'll be able to add more on distances, speeds, weapons, and the like. Some of this information may already be on other pages, but aren't expanded or elaborated.

Perhaps someone knows of what earthly materials ''Galactica'' would have to be made of to withstand the compressive energies of a kiloton nuclear warhead without major structural deformity (Mini-Series). This is meant to be a page of speculation based on points from the series, so have fun with it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:35, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:I'm a little confused. Based on your analysis we know Colonial One's distance from Caprica, not Galactica's, so how can we measure Colonial One's speed?

:Galactica is at point A. Caprica is at point C. Colonial One is at point B between them, 30 light-minutes from point C and 5.5 ship-hours from point A. I don't see how we can solve for Colonial One's velocity with this data.

:Roslin's conversation with Jack (which I believed survived its way to the final cut) was in real-time, however, so we can probably assume that they'd made it all the way back to Caprica by the time the nukes went off.

:Oh, one last thing - if BSG follows real-world physics, the fastest way to get somewhere in space is to accelerate at full capacity until you're halfway to your destination, then flip around and decelerate the rest of the distance. Since there's no air resistance, there isn't any "top speed" to contend with - a ship's speed would only be limited by its fuel stores and maximum acceleration. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::I did fudge Colonal One's location, assuming it and Caprica are almost at the same location to work out the travel times and distance. Even if Colonial One is as much as 30 light-minutes out, I may be able to reverse-calculate that amount of distance and recompute the time. (Damn. Now I sound like a character from Star Trek. Where's my heisenberg compensator!?) Yes, Jack's conversation was in the final cut, although there was a draft scene where we see him on Caprica in the hellish bombardment result, which wasn't in the aired show. The ship was 3 hours from Caprica when news of the attacks reached them, and I would hope that the ship stopped their approach at that point or close to it. Since wireless is speed-of-light communications. either the writers screwed up since 3 hours from Caprica at my calculated cruise speed would mean that a wireless message exchange would be over 120 million miles, and that would take it about 12 minutes between sends.

::Or, Colonial One was close to Caprica, but that would also mean that it was fodder--we saw Valerii's Raptor near Caprica and descending, and the space around the planet was filled with basestars and a dead battlestar. In Star Trek, the writers explain off relativistic communications with "subspace", but I am ''not'' going there. It's more likely that the ship was close enough for wireless...maybe about twice the distance from our Earth to our moon, or about 500,000 miles. That would make for a 4 second delay, not so much of a comm delay (and can be written off when the viewer see the conversation), but far enough away to keep the Cylon armada there from noticing right off on DRADIS (though obviously a fighter or two did). After looking at my DVD, that idea is most probable beyond saying the writers screwed up.

::Yep, all ships, including Vipers, have to brake once inertia kicks in. We see lots of instances in the mini-series of what happens when the rules of inertia are adhered--or ignored. Something else to add and incorporate. And, then, there's that ''artificial gravity'' thing that needs explainin'. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:07, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::Just reviewed that scene, and your calculations seem sound. Billy was stating the time delay between Galactica and Caprica, not Colonial One's current location, and the flight was obviously just getting underway. Furthermore, the delay between the nuclear attacks and Adama's report ("preliminary reports indicate a thermonuclear device in the fifty megaton range was detonated over caprica city thirty minutes ago") makes it clear that it's a 30-minute delay each way, not round trip.
:::One more thing, though. Galactica is clearly already en route to Caprica - Adama indicates that they're on their way home when he talks to Tigh, and it can be seen in space with its sublight engines active. This complicates their rendezvous substantially, since Colonial One would have to reverse course and match speed with Galactica in order to avoid simply crossing paths. On the other hand, it's apparently not accelerating there as fast as Colonial One is capable of, or else that ship's return trip would be impossible. It may be fair to consider it a stationary object. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:35, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::: This is a neat page. I just found it. Anyway, I think, if I were the interplanetary equivalent of the FAA, I'd determine that civillian ships should obey certain speedlimits (excluding emergency craft, I guess, with siren-equivalents going), and military craft to certain, slightly higher, speed limits (except in times of war). So, this would mean that people wouldn't generally be accellerating half way to a destination and decellerating the other half.

:::: Also, since ''Galactica'''s crew knows she'll be rendesvousing with various civillian craft, she's probably doing some zig-zagging to meet up with them, so not travelling in a straight line. Keep in mind, she's a destination for an event. Getting to Caprica isn't probably very high on the priority list until after the ceremony.

:::: I wish the writer's had done the math. It looks, to me, like they didn't, really. I mean--I can understand an aversion to getting into the nitty-gritty details, but important things like a kind of average acceleration speed seem handy to have.

:::: Lastly, a few loose ends I have. Do you guys think wireless is basically just radio and, thus, works at the speed of light? Have you noticed that smaller craft with huge aft-oriented engines have little problem doing quick-decelleration maneuvers without flipping around (eg. the Marine boarding Raptors in ''[[Bastille Day]]'')? Does anyone have any thoughts about the feasability of what we've seen the Vipers do as far as all the flipping and turning and such? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:51, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::All things considered, I think they did pretty good in some parts of math. Based on the early Mini-Series script floating around (where it specifically indicates the term wireless and that it was their term for radio), and given that its use is identical to what is used in the Mini-Series, yes, wireless is radio. On Galactica's movement: for purposes of simplicity, Gods, yes, please keep her a stationary object for the equations. From a travel standpoint, it would be more sensible to keep Galactica in one place since a civilian transport wouldn't want to make changes in course at FTL speed 0.11. She is likely moving a little, but nowhere near Colonial Heavy 798's speeds, and in no rush to get to Caprica. On small ships: I think the Viper physics model is great. Sometimes the Raptor movement seems a bit too Star Wars, I agree, but I'll have to pay more attention to that to make a better assessment. I think I'm going to tackle that ''artificial gravity'' matter today--it's been stewing in my head. And has anyone noticed that Galactica's sublight engines are ALWAYS on, even if she appears stationary? I think its a beautiful effect, but I get distracted by it when I watch the fight at the Anchorage. Here's the battlestar, now dorsal up and flipped, but its' engines still look like they're burning, and hard. Don't know what's up with that. Oh, and I guess Vipers can manage high sublight speeds like a civilian transport, since Colonial Heavy was escorted back to Caprica and the last Mark VII squadron was en route back as well. There's the matter of keeping humans from turning to goo at these speeds, but I'll work on it until my head explodes (shouldn't be too long). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:54, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::: People not gooifying is probably tied into artificial gravity. However, I imagine that smaller craft don't have the gravity equipment (if I were designing them, I'd probably leave it off to lower mass) since Adama talks about a tight turn meaning Kara would have to be pulling Gs like fighter pilots today do... So either the gravity equipment can generate a G, but not counter inertia (which would mean splat), or it's not included in the fighters. However, Raptors would seem to have it, since everyone always stands on the floor in those things, even in orbit over Kobol before being rammed by Raptors. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:08, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::::Remember the scene where Adama jokingly tells Billy that they're having good luck in getting to Kobol as both are pressed into their descending Raptor by 5 or 6 Gs? I agree, the artificial gravity compensates as if you were in a 1 G situation. I bet the Vipers are weightless to save the weight of an artificial gravity device, however, and I've yet to recall where a pilot takes something off and drops it inside a fighter. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:18, 9 December 2005 (EST)

Anyone given any thought to the time dilation caused by movement at such speeds? Might make for some interesting dialogue in an episode, if anything. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 21:22, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:If I understand my relativistic principles, sublight flight would have a slight relativistic effect. In the case of lightspeed, there is no relativistic effect as ships do not actually move at light speed, but move from one location to another--apparent FTL. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable to calculate the actual relativistic effects on, say, ''Colonial One's'' occupants at their cruise speed. Maybe someone else is knowledgeable. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:33, 31 December 2005 (EST)

==Artificial Gravity==
Be careful not to confuse Naturalistic SF with Hard SF. They have little to do with one another. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:09, 9 December 2005 (EST)
:Of course, in fact, they are quite opposite, but NSF takes a few elements from hard SF, though not in the extreme that hard SF defines itself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:18, 9 December 2005 (EST)

==Sublight vs. FTL==
The fact that Colonial One, an FTL-capable ship, made its way from Caprica to Galactica at Sublight tells us something else - 5.5 hours of engine burn consume less energy than a hyperspace jump to cover the same distance. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:58, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:Not necessarily. Two reasons why--first, FTL might not have been an option: either it was illegal, seen as too dangerous for travel within a system, deemed too uncomfortable for passengers, or pilots simply weren't trained to calculate a jump, any of which are potentially valid given Tigh's comment that it had been 20 years since a jump. Of course, that may raise a question as to why the drive was installed in the first place. (Regulations? Holdover from the first war?) Secondly, it seems unrealistic that it would take more energy to jump that small distance than to burn the fuel because the entire fleet can jump like 230 times in a row ([[33]]) without any refueling problems or the like. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 21:19, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:I think that FTL flight is generally quite disconcerting to passengers, judging from Cally's take on it when we see ''Galactica'' make its first Jump in the Miniseries. So, sublight is preferable in most instances. I cannot determine from any episodes whether the fuel consumption is more or less when going at sublight over FTL. The comfort level is the most likely reason. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:52, 1 January 2006 (EST)

==Nukes==
If the energy density of [[Tylium]] is so much greater than fissile materials and has the added benefit of producing no fallout, and requiring no sophisticated trigger mechanism, why do the Colonials use nuclear warheads on their missiles rather than tylium bombs? Nuclear fallout has desirable side effects against organic targets, which explains Cylon use thereof, but what advantage does it offer human forces?

:(Obviously, in real life it's a question of storytelling:
:"For instance, in the Galactica mini-series, when the Cylons attack the colonists, they attack them with thermonuclear weapons. They don't attack them with lasers and photon torpedoes, and strange things that don't exist.
:"When you see a planet nuked, and you see those mushroom clouds, and hear about the destruction of entire cities by nuclear weapons, that is a much more terrifying and frightening idea than if you're saying fifteen thousand photon torpedoes were launched at Caprica. One is real and one is not." [http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/news/cult/2004/02/20/9599.shtml]
:"There would not be 'photon torpedoes' but instead nuclear missiles, because nukes are real and thus are frightening." [http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/magazine/17GALACTICA.html]
:"We use nukes. And these days, that’s truly scary. You use photon torpedoes and the audience goes 'oh, okay. shrug.'" [http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA513174.html?display=Top+Stories]) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:09, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:Nukes have the desireable side effect of creating an electromagnetic pulse which disrupts all (currently) known forms of electronics. --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:41, 8 January 2006 (EST)
: : And a side note, now that I think of it. Considering the supposed rarity of tylium, Nukes are also much easier to produce and much less of a waste of a valuable resource. [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 13:12, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::You hit the nail on the head, Durandal. If you can, work up what you just said and add it to the article! --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)

== Landings & Gravity ==

Unless I am completely mistaken, aside from whatever may be the 'standard' artifical gravity source aboard Galactica, it is explicitly stated that the actual landing pads in the flight pods rely upon magnitism to hold craft in place en route to the hanger.
:"Viper Four-five-zero, skids down, mag-lock secure." (Kelly to Apollo upon touchdown aproximately 22 minutes into the miniseries)
[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:56, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Correct. On the flight deck, magnetism is used to secure landing Vipers. But in the hangar deck and manned areas of the ship, something else is used, since the humans (and many other virtually non-magnetic items in CIC and elsewhere) are kept from floating. It's an unexplained conumdrum that right now is just a writing convenience. If the article appears to be vague in that topic, do modify it. I created and generated much of this article, and sometimes I can get too wordy and the point gets muddled. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:19, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:: I actually wrote this bit in response to note 2, which states it as a possibility as opposed to cannon-fact. I'm not quite sure HOW to rewrite it, unfortunately... [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 13:23, 8 January 2006 (EST)

User talk:Durandal

2006-01-08T18:15:14Z

Durandal: /* AHHH! */

Talk:Science in the Re-imagined Series/Archive 1

2006-01-08T18:12:02Z

Durandal: /* Nukes */

== Time for a Technobabble Exam ==

This article came out of my head as watched the mini-series for the umpteenth time after wondering if the writers really took the time to know what numbers they're having the characters say and if they mean anything real. I'm neither a math expert or physics expert, so do check my math. I've started on mini-series datum, and as others rewatch season 1 and 2, we'll be able to add more on distances, speeds, weapons, and the like. Some of this information may already be on other pages, but aren't expanded or elaborated.

Perhaps someone knows of what earthly materials ''Galactica'' would have to be made of to withstand the compressive energies of a kiloton nuclear warhead without major structural deformity (Mini-Series). This is meant to be a page of speculation based on points from the series, so have fun with it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:35, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:I'm a little confused. Based on your analysis we know Colonial One's distance from Caprica, not Galactica's, so how can we measure Colonial One's speed?

:Galactica is at point A. Caprica is at point C. Colonial One is at point B between them, 30 light-minutes from point C and 5.5 ship-hours from point A. I don't see how we can solve for Colonial One's velocity with this data.

:Roslin's conversation with Jack (which I believed survived its way to the final cut) was in real-time, however, so we can probably assume that they'd made it all the way back to Caprica by the time the nukes went off.

:Oh, one last thing - if BSG follows real-world physics, the fastest way to get somewhere in space is to accelerate at full capacity until you're halfway to your destination, then flip around and decelerate the rest of the distance. Since there's no air resistance, there isn't any "top speed" to contend with - a ship's speed would only be limited by its fuel stores and maximum acceleration. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::I did fudge Colonal One's location, assuming it and Caprica are almost at the same location to work out the travel times and distance. Even if Colonial One is as much as 30 light-minutes out, I may be able to reverse-calculate that amount of distance and recompute the time. (Damn. Now I sound like a character from Star Trek. Where's my heisenberg compensator!?) Yes, Jack's conversation was in the final cut, although there was a draft scene where we see him on Caprica in the hellish bombardment result, which wasn't in the aired show. The ship was 3 hours from Caprica when news of the attacks reached them, and I would hope that the ship stopped their approach at that point or close to it. Since wireless is speed-of-light communications. either the writers screwed up since 3 hours from Caprica at my calculated cruise speed would mean that a wireless message exchange would be over 120 million miles, and that would take it about 12 minutes between sends.

::Or, Colonial One was close to Caprica, but that would also mean that it was fodder--we saw Valerii's Raptor near Caprica and descending, and the space around the planet was filled with basestars and a dead battlestar. In Star Trek, the writers explain off relativistic communications with "subspace", but I am ''not'' going there. It's more likely that the ship was close enough for wireless...maybe about twice the distance from our Earth to our moon, or about 500,000 miles. That would make for a 4 second delay, not so much of a comm delay (and can be written off when the viewer see the conversation), but far enough away to keep the Cylon armada there from noticing right off on DRADIS (though obviously a fighter or two did). After looking at my DVD, that idea is most probable beyond saying the writers screwed up.

::Yep, all ships, including Vipers, have to brake once inertia kicks in. We see lots of instances in the mini-series of what happens when the rules of inertia are adhered--or ignored. Something else to add and incorporate. And, then, there's that ''artificial gravity'' thing that needs explainin'. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:07, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::Just reviewed that scene, and your calculations seem sound. Billy was stating the time delay between Galactica and Caprica, not Colonial One's current location, and the flight was obviously just getting underway. Furthermore, the delay between the nuclear attacks and Adama's report ("preliminary reports indicate a thermonuclear device in the fifty megaton range was detonated over caprica city thirty minutes ago") makes it clear that it's a 30-minute delay each way, not round trip.
:::One more thing, though. Galactica is clearly already en route to Caprica - Adama indicates that they're on their way home when he talks to Tigh, and it can be seen in space with its sublight engines active. This complicates their rendezvous substantially, since Colonial One would have to reverse course and match speed with Galactica in order to avoid simply crossing paths. On the other hand, it's apparently not accelerating there as fast as Colonial One is capable of, or else that ship's return trip would be impossible. It may be fair to consider it a stationary object. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:35, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::: This is a neat page. I just found it. Anyway, I think, if I were the interplanetary equivalent of the FAA, I'd determine that civillian ships should obey certain speedlimits (excluding emergency craft, I guess, with siren-equivalents going), and military craft to certain, slightly higher, speed limits (except in times of war). So, this would mean that people wouldn't generally be accellerating half way to a destination and decellerating the other half.

:::: Also, since ''Galactica'''s crew knows she'll be rendesvousing with various civillian craft, she's probably doing some zig-zagging to meet up with them, so not travelling in a straight line. Keep in mind, she's a destination for an event. Getting to Caprica isn't probably very high on the priority list until after the ceremony.

:::: I wish the writer's had done the math. It looks, to me, like they didn't, really. I mean--I can understand an aversion to getting into the nitty-gritty details, but important things like a kind of average acceleration speed seem handy to have.

:::: Lastly, a few loose ends I have. Do you guys think wireless is basically just radio and, thus, works at the speed of light? Have you noticed that smaller craft with huge aft-oriented engines have little problem doing quick-decelleration maneuvers without flipping around (eg. the Marine boarding Raptors in ''[[Bastille Day]]'')? Does anyone have any thoughts about the feasability of what we've seen the Vipers do as far as all the flipping and turning and such? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:51, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::All things considered, I think they did pretty good in some parts of math. Based on the early Mini-Series script floating around (where it specifically indicates the term wireless and that it was their term for radio), and given that its use is identical to what is used in the Mini-Series, yes, wireless is radio. On Galactica's movement: for purposes of simplicity, Gods, yes, please keep her a stationary object for the equations. From a travel standpoint, it would be more sensible to keep Galactica in one place since a civilian transport wouldn't want to make changes in course at FTL speed 0.11. She is likely moving a little, but nowhere near Colonial Heavy 798's speeds, and in no rush to get to Caprica. On small ships: I think the Viper physics model is great. Sometimes the Raptor movement seems a bit too Star Wars, I agree, but I'll have to pay more attention to that to make a better assessment. I think I'm going to tackle that ''artificial gravity'' matter today--it's been stewing in my head. And has anyone noticed that Galactica's sublight engines are ALWAYS on, even if she appears stationary? I think its a beautiful effect, but I get distracted by it when I watch the fight at the Anchorage. Here's the battlestar, now dorsal up and flipped, but its' engines still look like they're burning, and hard. Don't know what's up with that. Oh, and I guess Vipers can manage high sublight speeds like a civilian transport, since Colonial Heavy was escorted back to Caprica and the last Mark VII squadron was en route back as well. There's the matter of keeping humans from turning to goo at these speeds, but I'll work on it until my head explodes (shouldn't be too long). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:54, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::: People not gooifying is probably tied into artificial gravity. However, I imagine that smaller craft don't have the gravity equipment (if I were designing them, I'd probably leave it off to lower mass) since Adama talks about a tight turn meaning Kara would have to be pulling Gs like fighter pilots today do... So either the gravity equipment can generate a G, but not counter inertia (which would mean splat), or it's not included in the fighters. However, Raptors would seem to have it, since everyone always stands on the floor in those things, even in orbit over Kobol before being rammed by Raptors. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:08, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::::Remember the scene where Adama jokingly tells Billy that they're having good luck in getting to Kobol as both are pressed into their descending Raptor by 5 or 6 Gs? I agree, the artificial gravity compensates as if you were in a 1 G situation. I bet the Vipers are weightless to save the weight of an artificial gravity device, however, and I've yet to recall where a pilot takes something off and drops it inside a fighter. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:18, 9 December 2005 (EST)

Anyone given any thought to the time dilation caused by movement at such speeds? Might make for some interesting dialogue in an episode, if anything. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 21:22, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:If I understand my relativistic principles, sublight flight would have a slight relativistic effect. In the case of lightspeed, there is no relativistic effect as ships do not actually move at light speed, but move from one location to another--apparent FTL. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable to calculate the actual relativistic effects on, say, ''Colonial One's'' occupants at their cruise speed. Maybe someone else is knowledgeable. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:33, 31 December 2005 (EST)

==Artificial Gravity==
Be careful not to confuse Naturalistic SF with Hard SF. They have little to do with one another. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:09, 9 December 2005 (EST)
:Of course, in fact, they are quite opposite, but NSF takes a few elements from hard SF, though not in the extreme that hard SF defines itself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:18, 9 December 2005 (EST)

==Sublight vs. FTL==
The fact that Colonial One, an FTL-capable ship, made its way from Caprica to Galactica at Sublight tells us something else - 5.5 hours of engine burn consume less energy than a hyperspace jump to cover the same distance. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:58, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:Not necessarily. Two reasons why--first, FTL might not have been an option: either it was illegal, seen as too dangerous for travel within a system, deemed too uncomfortable for passengers, or pilots simply weren't trained to calculate a jump, any of which are potentially valid given Tigh's comment that it had been 20 years since a jump. Of course, that may raise a question as to why the drive was installed in the first place. (Regulations? Holdover from the first war?) Secondly, it seems unrealistic that it would take more energy to jump that small distance than to burn the fuel because the entire fleet can jump like 230 times in a row ([[33]]) without any refueling problems or the like. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 21:19, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:I think that FTL flight is generally quite disconcerting to passengers, judging from Cally's take on it when we see ''Galactica'' make its first Jump in the Miniseries. So, sublight is preferable in most instances. I cannot determine from any episodes whether the fuel consumption is more or less when going at sublight over FTL. The comfort level is the most likely reason. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:52, 1 January 2006 (EST)

==Nukes==
If the energy density of [[Tylium]] is so much greater than fissile materials and has the added benefit of producing no fallout, and requiring no sophisticated trigger mechanism, why do the Colonials use nuclear warheads on their missiles rather than tylium bombs? Nuclear fallout has desirable side effects against organic targets, which explains Cylon use thereof, but what advantage does it offer human forces?

:(Obviously, in real life it's a question of storytelling:
:"For instance, in the Galactica mini-series, when the Cylons attack the colonists, they attack them with thermonuclear weapons. They don't attack them with lasers and photon torpedoes, and strange things that don't exist.
:"When you see a planet nuked, and you see those mushroom clouds, and hear about the destruction of entire cities by nuclear weapons, that is a much more terrifying and frightening idea than if you're saying fifteen thousand photon torpedoes were launched at Caprica. One is real and one is not." [http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/news/cult/2004/02/20/9599.shtml]
:"There would not be 'photon torpedoes' but instead nuclear missiles, because nukes are real and thus are frightening." [http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/magazine/17GALACTICA.html]
:"We use nukes. And these days, that’s truly scary. You use photon torpedoes and the audience goes 'oh, okay. shrug.'" [http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA513174.html?display=Top+Stories]) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:09, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:Nukes have the desireable side effect of creating an electromagnetic pulse which disrupts all (currently) known forms of electronics. --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:41, 8 January 2006 (EST)
: : And a side note, now that I think of it. Considering the supposed rarity of tylium, Nukes are also much easier to produce and much less of a waste of a valuable resource. [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 13:12, 8 January 2006 (EST)

== Landings & Gravity ==

Unless I am completely mistaken, aside from whatever may be the 'standard' artifical gravity source aboard Galactica, it is explicitly stated that the actual landing pads in the flight pods rely upon magnitism to hold craft in place en route to the hanger.
:"Viper Four-five-zero, skids down, mag-lock secure." (Kelly to Apollo upon touchdown aproximately 22 minutes into the miniseries)
[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:56, 8 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Science in the Re-imagined Series/Archive 1

2006-01-08T18:11:26Z

Durandal: /* Nukes */

== Time for a Technobabble Exam ==

This article came out of my head as watched the mini-series for the umpteenth time after wondering if the writers really took the time to know what numbers they're having the characters say and if they mean anything real. I'm neither a math expert or physics expert, so do check my math. I've started on mini-series datum, and as others rewatch season 1 and 2, we'll be able to add more on distances, speeds, weapons, and the like. Some of this information may already be on other pages, but aren't expanded or elaborated.

Perhaps someone knows of what earthly materials ''Galactica'' would have to be made of to withstand the compressive energies of a kiloton nuclear warhead without major structural deformity (Mini-Series). This is meant to be a page of speculation based on points from the series, so have fun with it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:35, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:I'm a little confused. Based on your analysis we know Colonial One's distance from Caprica, not Galactica's, so how can we measure Colonial One's speed?

:Galactica is at point A. Caprica is at point C. Colonial One is at point B between them, 30 light-minutes from point C and 5.5 ship-hours from point A. I don't see how we can solve for Colonial One's velocity with this data.

:Roslin's conversation with Jack (which I believed survived its way to the final cut) was in real-time, however, so we can probably assume that they'd made it all the way back to Caprica by the time the nukes went off.

:Oh, one last thing - if BSG follows real-world physics, the fastest way to get somewhere in space is to accelerate at full capacity until you're halfway to your destination, then flip around and decelerate the rest of the distance. Since there's no air resistance, there isn't any "top speed" to contend with - a ship's speed would only be limited by its fuel stores and maximum acceleration. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::I did fudge Colonal One's location, assuming it and Caprica are almost at the same location to work out the travel times and distance. Even if Colonial One is as much as 30 light-minutes out, I may be able to reverse-calculate that amount of distance and recompute the time. (Damn. Now I sound like a character from Star Trek. Where's my heisenberg compensator!?) Yes, Jack's conversation was in the final cut, although there was a draft scene where we see him on Caprica in the hellish bombardment result, which wasn't in the aired show. The ship was 3 hours from Caprica when news of the attacks reached them, and I would hope that the ship stopped their approach at that point or close to it. Since wireless is speed-of-light communications. either the writers screwed up since 3 hours from Caprica at my calculated cruise speed would mean that a wireless message exchange would be over 120 million miles, and that would take it about 12 minutes between sends.

::Or, Colonial One was close to Caprica, but that would also mean that it was fodder--we saw Valerii's Raptor near Caprica and descending, and the space around the planet was filled with basestars and a dead battlestar. In Star Trek, the writers explain off relativistic communications with "subspace", but I am ''not'' going there. It's more likely that the ship was close enough for wireless...maybe about twice the distance from our Earth to our moon, or about 500,000 miles. That would make for a 4 second delay, not so much of a comm delay (and can be written off when the viewer see the conversation), but far enough away to keep the Cylon armada there from noticing right off on DRADIS (though obviously a fighter or two did). After looking at my DVD, that idea is most probable beyond saying the writers screwed up.

::Yep, all ships, including Vipers, have to brake once inertia kicks in. We see lots of instances in the mini-series of what happens when the rules of inertia are adhered--or ignored. Something else to add and incorporate. And, then, there's that ''artificial gravity'' thing that needs explainin'. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:07, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::Just reviewed that scene, and your calculations seem sound. Billy was stating the time delay between Galactica and Caprica, not Colonial One's current location, and the flight was obviously just getting underway. Furthermore, the delay between the nuclear attacks and Adama's report ("preliminary reports indicate a thermonuclear device in the fifty megaton range was detonated over caprica city thirty minutes ago") makes it clear that it's a 30-minute delay each way, not round trip.
:::One more thing, though. Galactica is clearly already en route to Caprica - Adama indicates that they're on their way home when he talks to Tigh, and it can be seen in space with its sublight engines active. This complicates their rendezvous substantially, since Colonial One would have to reverse course and match speed with Galactica in order to avoid simply crossing paths. On the other hand, it's apparently not accelerating there as fast as Colonial One is capable of, or else that ship's return trip would be impossible. It may be fair to consider it a stationary object. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:35, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::: This is a neat page. I just found it. Anyway, I think, if I were the interplanetary equivalent of the FAA, I'd determine that civillian ships should obey certain speedlimits (excluding emergency craft, I guess, with siren-equivalents going), and military craft to certain, slightly higher, speed limits (except in times of war). So, this would mean that people wouldn't generally be accellerating half way to a destination and decellerating the other half.

:::: Also, since ''Galactica'''s crew knows she'll be rendesvousing with various civillian craft, she's probably doing some zig-zagging to meet up with them, so not travelling in a straight line. Keep in mind, she's a destination for an event. Getting to Caprica isn't probably very high on the priority list until after the ceremony.

:::: I wish the writer's had done the math. It looks, to me, like they didn't, really. I mean--I can understand an aversion to getting into the nitty-gritty details, but important things like a kind of average acceleration speed seem handy to have.

:::: Lastly, a few loose ends I have. Do you guys think wireless is basically just radio and, thus, works at the speed of light? Have you noticed that smaller craft with huge aft-oriented engines have little problem doing quick-decelleration maneuvers without flipping around (eg. the Marine boarding Raptors in ''[[Bastille Day]]'')? Does anyone have any thoughts about the feasability of what we've seen the Vipers do as far as all the flipping and turning and such? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:51, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::All things considered, I think they did pretty good in some parts of math. Based on the early Mini-Series script floating around (where it specifically indicates the term wireless and that it was their term for radio), and given that its use is identical to what is used in the Mini-Series, yes, wireless is radio. On Galactica's movement: for purposes of simplicity, Gods, yes, please keep her a stationary object for the equations. From a travel standpoint, it would be more sensible to keep Galactica in one place since a civilian transport wouldn't want to make changes in course at FTL speed 0.11. She is likely moving a little, but nowhere near Colonial Heavy 798's speeds, and in no rush to get to Caprica. On small ships: I think the Viper physics model is great. Sometimes the Raptor movement seems a bit too Star Wars, I agree, but I'll have to pay more attention to that to make a better assessment. I think I'm going to tackle that ''artificial gravity'' matter today--it's been stewing in my head. And has anyone noticed that Galactica's sublight engines are ALWAYS on, even if she appears stationary? I think its a beautiful effect, but I get distracted by it when I watch the fight at the Anchorage. Here's the battlestar, now dorsal up and flipped, but its' engines still look like they're burning, and hard. Don't know what's up with that. Oh, and I guess Vipers can manage high sublight speeds like a civilian transport, since Colonial Heavy was escorted back to Caprica and the last Mark VII squadron was en route back as well. There's the matter of keeping humans from turning to goo at these speeds, but I'll work on it until my head explodes (shouldn't be too long). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:54, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::: People not gooifying is probably tied into artificial gravity. However, I imagine that smaller craft don't have the gravity equipment (if I were designing them, I'd probably leave it off to lower mass) since Adama talks about a tight turn meaning Kara would have to be pulling Gs like fighter pilots today do... So either the gravity equipment can generate a G, but not counter inertia (which would mean splat), or it's not included in the fighters. However, Raptors would seem to have it, since everyone always stands on the floor in those things, even in orbit over Kobol before being rammed by Raptors. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:08, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::::Remember the scene where Adama jokingly tells Billy that they're having good luck in getting to Kobol as both are pressed into their descending Raptor by 5 or 6 Gs? I agree, the artificial gravity compensates as if you were in a 1 G situation. I bet the Vipers are weightless to save the weight of an artificial gravity device, however, and I've yet to recall where a pilot takes something off and drops it inside a fighter. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:18, 9 December 2005 (EST)

Anyone given any thought to the time dilation caused by movement at such speeds? Might make for some interesting dialogue in an episode, if anything. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 21:22, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:If I understand my relativistic principles, sublight flight would have a slight relativistic effect. In the case of lightspeed, there is no relativistic effect as ships do not actually move at light speed, but move from one location to another--apparent FTL. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable to calculate the actual relativistic effects on, say, ''Colonial One's'' occupants at their cruise speed. Maybe someone else is knowledgeable. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:33, 31 December 2005 (EST)

==Artificial Gravity==
Be careful not to confuse Naturalistic SF with Hard SF. They have little to do with one another. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:09, 9 December 2005 (EST)
:Of course, in fact, they are quite opposite, but NSF takes a few elements from hard SF, though not in the extreme that hard SF defines itself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:18, 9 December 2005 (EST)

==Sublight vs. FTL==
The fact that Colonial One, an FTL-capable ship, made its way from Caprica to Galactica at Sublight tells us something else - 5.5 hours of engine burn consume less energy than a hyperspace jump to cover the same distance. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:58, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:Not necessarily. Two reasons why--first, FTL might not have been an option: either it was illegal, seen as too dangerous for travel within a system, deemed too uncomfortable for passengers, or pilots simply weren't trained to calculate a jump, any of which are potentially valid given Tigh's comment that it had been 20 years since a jump. Of course, that may raise a question as to why the drive was installed in the first place. (Regulations? Holdover from the first war?) Secondly, it seems unrealistic that it would take more energy to jump that small distance than to burn the fuel because the entire fleet can jump like 230 times in a row ([[33]]) without any refueling problems or the like. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 21:19, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:I think that FTL flight is generally quite disconcerting to passengers, judging from Cally's take on it when we see ''Galactica'' make its first Jump in the Miniseries. So, sublight is preferable in most instances. I cannot determine from any episodes whether the fuel consumption is more or less when going at sublight over FTL. The comfort level is the most likely reason. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:52, 1 January 2006 (EST)

==Nukes==
If the energy density of [[Tylium]] is so much greater than fissile materials and has the added benefit of producing no fallout, and requiring no sophisticated trigger mechanism, why do the Colonials use nuclear warheads on their missiles rather than tylium bombs? Nuclear fallout has desirable side effects against organic targets, which explains Cylon use thereof, but what advantage does it offer human forces?

:(Obviously, in real life it's a question of storytelling:
:"For instance, in the Galactica mini-series, when the Cylons attack the colonists, they attack them with thermonuclear weapons. They don't attack them with lasers and photon torpedoes, and strange things that don't exist.
:"When you see a planet nuked, and you see those mushroom clouds, and hear about the destruction of entire cities by nuclear weapons, that is a much more terrifying and frightening idea than if you're saying fifteen thousand photon torpedoes were launched at Caprica. One is real and one is not." [http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/news/cult/2004/02/20/9599.shtml]
:"There would not be 'photon torpedoes' but instead nuclear missiles, because nukes are real and thus are frightening." [http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/magazine/17GALACTICA.html]
:"We use nukes. And these days, that’s truly scary. You use photon torpedoes and the audience goes 'oh, okay. shrug.'" [http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA513174.html?display=Top+Stories]) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:09, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:Nukes have the desireable side effect of creating an electromagnetic pulse which disrupts all (currently) known forms of electronics. --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:41, 8 January 2006 (EST)
: : And a side note, now that I think of it. Considering the supposed rarity of tylium, Nukes are also much easier to produce and much less of a waste of a valuable resource.

== Landings & Gravity ==

Unless I am completely mistaken, aside from whatever may be the 'standard' artifical gravity source aboard Galactica, it is explicitly stated that the actual landing pads in the flight pods rely upon magnitism to hold craft in place en route to the hanger.
:"Viper Four-five-zero, skids down, mag-lock secure." (Kelly to Apollo upon touchdown aproximately 22 minutes into the miniseries)
[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:56, 8 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Science in the Re-imagined Series/Archive 1

2006-01-08T07:56:27Z

Durandal: Landings & Gravity

== Time for a Technobabble Exam ==

This article came out of my head as watched the mini-series for the umpteenth time after wondering if the writers really took the time to know what numbers they're having the characters say and if they mean anything real. I'm neither a math expert or physics expert, so do check my math. I've started on mini-series datum, and as others rewatch season 1 and 2, we'll be able to add more on distances, speeds, weapons, and the like. Some of this information may already be on other pages, but aren't expanded or elaborated.

Perhaps someone knows of what earthly materials ''Galactica'' would have to be made of to withstand the compressive energies of a kiloton nuclear warhead without major structural deformity (Mini-Series). This is meant to be a page of speculation based on points from the series, so have fun with it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:35, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:I'm a little confused. Based on your analysis we know Colonial One's distance from Caprica, not Galactica's, so how can we measure Colonial One's speed?

:Galactica is at point A. Caprica is at point C. Colonial One is at point B between them, 30 light-minutes from point C and 5.5 ship-hours from point A. I don't see how we can solve for Colonial One's velocity with this data.

:Roslin's conversation with Jack (which I believed survived its way to the final cut) was in real-time, however, so we can probably assume that they'd made it all the way back to Caprica by the time the nukes went off.

:Oh, one last thing - if BSG follows real-world physics, the fastest way to get somewhere in space is to accelerate at full capacity until you're halfway to your destination, then flip around and decelerate the rest of the distance. Since there's no air resistance, there isn't any "top speed" to contend with - a ship's speed would only be limited by its fuel stores and maximum acceleration. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::I did fudge Colonal One's location, assuming it and Caprica are almost at the same location to work out the travel times and distance. Even if Colonial One is as much as 30 light-minutes out, I may be able to reverse-calculate that amount of distance and recompute the time. (Damn. Now I sound like a character from Star Trek. Where's my heisenberg compensator!?) Yes, Jack's conversation was in the final cut, although there was a draft scene where we see him on Caprica in the hellish bombardment result, which wasn't in the aired show. The ship was 3 hours from Caprica when news of the attacks reached them, and I would hope that the ship stopped their approach at that point or close to it. Since wireless is speed-of-light communications. either the writers screwed up since 3 hours from Caprica at my calculated cruise speed would mean that a wireless message exchange would be over 120 million miles, and that would take it about 12 minutes between sends.

::Or, Colonial One was close to Caprica, but that would also mean that it was fodder--we saw Valerii's Raptor near Caprica and descending, and the space around the planet was filled with basestars and a dead battlestar. In Star Trek, the writers explain off relativistic communications with "subspace", but I am ''not'' going there. It's more likely that the ship was close enough for wireless...maybe about twice the distance from our Earth to our moon, or about 500,000 miles. That would make for a 4 second delay, not so much of a comm delay (and can be written off when the viewer see the conversation), but far enough away to keep the Cylon armada there from noticing right off on DRADIS (though obviously a fighter or two did). After looking at my DVD, that idea is most probable beyond saying the writers screwed up.

::Yep, all ships, including Vipers, have to brake once inertia kicks in. We see lots of instances in the mini-series of what happens when the rules of inertia are adhered--or ignored. Something else to add and incorporate. And, then, there's that ''artificial gravity'' thing that needs explainin'. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:07, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::Just reviewed that scene, and your calculations seem sound. Billy was stating the time delay between Galactica and Caprica, not Colonial One's current location, and the flight was obviously just getting underway. Furthermore, the delay between the nuclear attacks and Adama's report ("preliminary reports indicate a thermonuclear device in the fifty megaton range was detonated over caprica city thirty minutes ago") makes it clear that it's a 30-minute delay each way, not round trip.
:::One more thing, though. Galactica is clearly already en route to Caprica - Adama indicates that they're on their way home when he talks to Tigh, and it can be seen in space with its sublight engines active. This complicates their rendezvous substantially, since Colonial One would have to reverse course and match speed with Galactica in order to avoid simply crossing paths. On the other hand, it's apparently not accelerating there as fast as Colonial One is capable of, or else that ship's return trip would be impossible. It may be fair to consider it a stationary object. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:35, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::: This is a neat page. I just found it. Anyway, I think, if I were the interplanetary equivalent of the FAA, I'd determine that civillian ships should obey certain speedlimits (excluding emergency craft, I guess, with siren-equivalents going), and military craft to certain, slightly higher, speed limits (except in times of war). So, this would mean that people wouldn't generally be accellerating half way to a destination and decellerating the other half.

:::: Also, since ''Galactica'''s crew knows she'll be rendesvousing with various civillian craft, she's probably doing some zig-zagging to meet up with them, so not travelling in a straight line. Keep in mind, she's a destination for an event. Getting to Caprica isn't probably very high on the priority list until after the ceremony.

:::: I wish the writer's had done the math. It looks, to me, like they didn't, really. I mean--I can understand an aversion to getting into the nitty-gritty details, but important things like a kind of average acceleration speed seem handy to have.

:::: Lastly, a few loose ends I have. Do you guys think wireless is basically just radio and, thus, works at the speed of light? Have you noticed that smaller craft with huge aft-oriented engines have little problem doing quick-decelleration maneuvers without flipping around (eg. the Marine boarding Raptors in ''[[Bastille Day]]'')? Does anyone have any thoughts about the feasability of what we've seen the Vipers do as far as all the flipping and turning and such? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:51, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::All things considered, I think they did pretty good in some parts of math. Based on the early Mini-Series script floating around (where it specifically indicates the term wireless and that it was their term for radio), and given that its use is identical to what is used in the Mini-Series, yes, wireless is radio. On Galactica's movement: for purposes of simplicity, Gods, yes, please keep her a stationary object for the equations. From a travel standpoint, it would be more sensible to keep Galactica in one place since a civilian transport wouldn't want to make changes in course at FTL speed 0.11. She is likely moving a little, but nowhere near Colonial Heavy 798's speeds, and in no rush to get to Caprica. On small ships: I think the Viper physics model is great. Sometimes the Raptor movement seems a bit too Star Wars, I agree, but I'll have to pay more attention to that to make a better assessment. I think I'm going to tackle that ''artificial gravity'' matter today--it's been stewing in my head. And has anyone noticed that Galactica's sublight engines are ALWAYS on, even if she appears stationary? I think its a beautiful effect, but I get distracted by it when I watch the fight at the Anchorage. Here's the battlestar, now dorsal up and flipped, but its' engines still look like they're burning, and hard. Don't know what's up with that. Oh, and I guess Vipers can manage high sublight speeds like a civilian transport, since Colonial Heavy was escorted back to Caprica and the last Mark VII squadron was en route back as well. There's the matter of keeping humans from turning to goo at these speeds, but I'll work on it until my head explodes (shouldn't be too long). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:54, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::: People not gooifying is probably tied into artificial gravity. However, I imagine that smaller craft don't have the gravity equipment (if I were designing them, I'd probably leave it off to lower mass) since Adama talks about a tight turn meaning Kara would have to be pulling Gs like fighter pilots today do... So either the gravity equipment can generate a G, but not counter inertia (which would mean splat), or it's not included in the fighters. However, Raptors would seem to have it, since everyone always stands on the floor in those things, even in orbit over Kobol before being rammed by Raptors. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:08, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::::Remember the scene where Adama jokingly tells Billy that they're having good luck in getting to Kobol as both are pressed into their descending Raptor by 5 or 6 Gs? I agree, the artificial gravity compensates as if you were in a 1 G situation. I bet the Vipers are weightless to save the weight of an artificial gravity device, however, and I've yet to recall where a pilot takes something off and drops it inside a fighter. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:18, 9 December 2005 (EST)

Anyone given any thought to the time dilation caused by movement at such speeds? Might make for some interesting dialogue in an episode, if anything. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 21:22, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:If I understand my relativistic principles, sublight flight would have a slight relativistic effect. In the case of lightspeed, there is no relativistic effect as ships do not actually move at light speed, but move from one location to another--apparent FTL. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable to calculate the actual relativistic effects on, say, ''Colonial One's'' occupants at their cruise speed. Maybe someone else is knowledgeable. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:33, 31 December 2005 (EST)

==Artificial Gravity==
Be careful not to confuse Naturalistic SF with Hard SF. They have little to do with one another. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:09, 9 December 2005 (EST)
:Of course, in fact, they are quite opposite, but NSF takes a few elements from hard SF, though not in the extreme that hard SF defines itself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:18, 9 December 2005 (EST)

==Sublight vs. FTL==
The fact that Colonial One, an FTL-capable ship, made its way from Caprica to Galactica at Sublight tells us something else - 5.5 hours of engine burn consume less energy than a hyperspace jump to cover the same distance. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:58, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:Not necessarily. Two reasons why--first, FTL might not have been an option: either it was illegal, seen as too dangerous for travel within a system, deemed too uncomfortable for passengers, or pilots simply weren't trained to calculate a jump, any of which are potentially valid given Tigh's comment that it had been 20 years since a jump. Of course, that may raise a question as to why the drive was installed in the first place. (Regulations? Holdover from the first war?) Secondly, it seems unrealistic that it would take more energy to jump that small distance than to burn the fuel because the entire fleet can jump like 230 times in a row ([[33]]) without any refueling problems or the like. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 21:19, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:I think that FTL flight is generally quite disconcerting to passengers, judging from Cally's take on it when we see ''Galactica'' make its first Jump in the Miniseries. So, sublight is preferable in most instances. I cannot determine from any episodes whether the fuel consumption is more or less when going at sublight over FTL. The comfort level is the most likely reason. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:52, 1 January 2006 (EST)

==Nukes==
If the energy density of [[Tylium]] is so much greater than fissile materials and has the added benefit of producing no fallout, and requiring no sophisticated trigger mechanism, why do the Colonials use nuclear warheads on their missiles rather than tylium bombs? Nuclear fallout has desirable side effects against organic targets, which explains Cylon use thereof, but what advantage does it offer human forces?

:(Obviously, in real life it's a question of storytelling:
:"For instance, in the Galactica mini-series, when the Cylons attack the colonists, they attack them with thermonuclear weapons. They don't attack them with lasers and photon torpedoes, and strange things that don't exist.
:"When you see a planet nuked, and you see those mushroom clouds, and hear about the destruction of entire cities by nuclear weapons, that is a much more terrifying and frightening idea than if you're saying fifteen thousand photon torpedoes were launched at Caprica. One is real and one is not." [http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/news/cult/2004/02/20/9599.shtml]
:"There would not be 'photon torpedoes' but instead nuclear missiles, because nukes are real and thus are frightening." [http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/magazine/17GALACTICA.html]
:"We use nukes. And these days, that’s truly scary. You use photon torpedoes and the audience goes 'oh, okay. shrug.'" [http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA513174.html?display=Top+Stories]) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:09, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:Nukes have the desireable side effect of creating an electromagnetic pulse which disrupts all (currently) known forms of electronics. --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:41, 8 January 2006 (EST)

== Landings & Gravity ==

Unless I am completely mistaken, aside from whatever may be the 'standard' artifical gravity source aboard Galactica, it is explicitly stated that the actual landing pads in the flight pods rely upon magnitism to hold craft in place en route to the hanger.
:"Viper Four-five-zero, skids down, mag-lock secure." (Kelly to Apollo upon touchdown aproximately 22 minutes into the miniseries)
[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:56, 8 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Science in the Re-imagined Series/Archive 1

2006-01-08T07:42:39Z

Durandal: /* Nukes */