Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:The Eye of Jupiter/Archive3

2007-01-01T01:40:07Z

Drumstick: /* Playing with the date? */

I wonder if it has to do with that big red spot... *rollseyes* --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:48, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm more reminded of that Writer's Podcast thing, you know when they're saying "How many more times are we going to find an artifact like the Arrow of Apollo and have to search for them all? That feels like going back to the well too many times, I mean what are we going to say, "Athena has 10 sacred toenail clipping scattered across space, you have to find them all...?" :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:49, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:i'm thinking along the lines of some jewelry. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:57, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

::It sounds like a good plotline actually. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:05, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Merv - you just made me spill forth mein coca cola whilst reading the section about the sacred toenail clippings - thats too much for 3am on a sunday morning! Still, plot looks good, just wish Season 3 would hurry up and AIR dammit! :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 21:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
::::No, really, they make a joke about "Athena's toenail clippings" in that writer's podcast thing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:12, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I have a few possible meanings for 'eye of Jupiter' --[[User:starryniteynite|starryniteynite]]

1) Relatively obscure name for NGC 3242, a planetary nebula (A ring of illuminated gas expanding out from a sun-like star that's exhausted its fuel, and has lost its outer layers) a few thousand light years from Earth. Most astronomers call this 'the Ghost of Jupiter' instead, though some Hubble images have used this name. Its not a very unique PN (tho it has some gas streamers we can't quite explain), but it could be used as a navigational marker like M8 (the lagoon nebula). It is a very pretty nebula :)

2) "Eye of Jupiter" was the Greek/Roman name for the sun, which lead to today's 'all seeing eye' symbol of the free masons and on the pyramid in US currency

3)Adama=Zeus=Jupiter...yes, they tend to use Greek vs. Roman names, but the titles are not always consistent with this convention, and we have also seen evidence for non Greek mythological names (Isis, for example). The rest of it could be wordplay too...'eye' might refer to someone acting as Adama's eyes, rather than his eyes literally (just as 'The captain's hand refereed to Lee acting as Gardner's XO, or his hand, rather than some captain's literal hand)

4)A reference to Jupiter's big red spot, a huge hurricane-like storm on the planet's surface. Just like the "bastille Day" title, this could reference something in the episode, but not directly...they might travel through a similar storm. This has actually been done before in the miniseries, when Galactica travels into the storm at Ragnar

5) The tried and true, ancient object meaning...just like the arrow of Apollo directly references a character, but has no link to the character himself, this could just be a pretty piece of bling..

Personally, I would love #1, but only because it'd make me 2/2 for BSG objects in my thesis and I'm a total, unabashed geek. I think its probably #2, however, and they find some sort of navigational means of finding Earth (like a picture of Earth w/ distances& directions to three pulsars or very unique objects

== Duelling Sharons ==

So did anyone else get a sense of animosity/jealousy between the two Sharons? While it seems that Boomer has accepted her place amongst the Cylons and no longer considers herself a part of the humans, it also seems that she's a bit jealous of Athena's "taking her place", if you could call it that. Likewise, it also seemed that aside from her duties as a Colonial officer, Athena's refusal to let Boomer in with Adama was also somewhat out of personal distrust, ironically the same distrust of the Cylons that her fellow Colonial colleagues have.

Also, while Boomer told Athena about Hera's condition out of possible concern of the child (possible strain of humanity left in her? Cylon imperative? Or something else?), seems to me that Boomer enjoyed bursting her "sister"'s bubble on that. Talk about sibling rivalry there.

It'll be interesting to see if there will be any further Sharon vs. Sharon confrontations in the series.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 23:55, 15 December 2006 (CST)

:It was a very, very interesting dynamic. In any other show, we would have had a knock-down dragout "catfight." You hit the nail on the head. This episode was prime stuff. And, we on the wiki should be commended: our ''Galactica'' nuke count is right on the money! (Either that, or the show is using ''us'' as a source! :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:20, 16 December 2006 (CST)

::Does that mean we can finally change the "Class-D Nuclear Warhead" to something completely different, since their nukes ''aren't'' Class-D? :P --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:42, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Image==
Let's find an image that actually occurs in this episode. Maybe the wide shot of Tyrol in the temple? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Heh which one? to me it seems the Chief was a bit wide in ALL shots ; how could he gain weight while the fleet was starving? the chief definitely deserves the Lee Adama Fat-Ass trophy --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 03:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:Maybe it was Chief, and not Dr. Cottle, that got all of Kat's energy bars from the last ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:25, 16 December 2006 (CST)

So... is someone with the means actually going to replace the image with one relevant to this episode? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 21:12, 20 December 2006 (CST)

:Silly joking aside, I agree that the picture should be replaced. I'd do it, but I don't have a good screencap --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:34, 23 December 2006 (CST)

:I happen to have the episode, so, it's done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:57, 23 December 2006 (CST)

::Well, I still see a thumbnail of the old image here and there (e.g. on the main page or on Mercifull's user page). -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:09, 27 December 2006 (CST)

:::You may need to purge your browser's image cache to see the new image. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:12, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::I've just purged my Maxthon's image cache a moment ago and I still see an old thumbnail. Tried that also with Opera and Firefox -- all the same. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 04:27, 28 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Starbuck survive?==
Horray for the carelessness of adverts! Within ten minutes we knew the answer to that one. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Aside from that, it's going to continue the cycle of Soap Opera unease there, if Dee's the one sent to go get Starbuck back. Can't wait to see the uncomfortable stares on that one, especially if (as I suspect) Dee set up Starbuck to be the "eye in the sky" '''hoping''' the Cylons would shoot her down.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Who else was supposed to fly the mission? Looks like Lee and Kara are the only two qualified pilots on the ground and Lee is needed in overall command. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:34, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Too good to be true==
When we Baltar's voice over ''Galactica'''s speaker, the closed caption actually identifies him as "Cylon over speaker". I know that's not really meant to be taken as anything, but with all the speculation, it seems like a shining goof, or maybe even someone taking a good piss out of the [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|whole thing]]. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Nuking the Planet==

Does anyone else think that the nuclear missiles have the ability to be detonated remotely, before they reach their target? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:44, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Not to mention abort code transmissions, etc. Makes you wonder if the missiles were set for "one shot, one kill" mode, where they could not be recalled.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Or perhaps the missiles can be aborted, until they reach a critical flight time. Could make for a ''very'' tense moment or two. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:Is it just me or didn't he actually give the order to fire. He said "release of nuclear weapons is now authorized". That might sound strange, but I took that to be a preliminary order to firing. For example that now even Tigh would be able to launch them on his say --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:03, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::No, you're correct on that; essentially all they were doing was opening the "barn doors". I was discussing the hypotheticals of the missiles, if they should be launched in the next ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:33, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:::Aye, we're just jumping the gun a little, and discussing possibles ways out of it, if Adama does indeed decide to launch :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 02:17, 21 December 2006 (CST)

::::Am I the only one who thinks he might be targeting the nukes for the Raiders on their way to the surface? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:53, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:::::Then why this-
:::::'''Adama''':Load target package three-bravo. Set ground zero for the underground structure.
::::: -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:19, 29 December 2006 (CST)

:::::: Damn, I missed that. Consider me stumped, then. -[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:17, 30 December 2006 (CST)

== WTF moment ==

I was on the [[Karl Agathon]] page, updating it for this ep's news, when I came across [[:Image:Valley_of_Darkness-Starbuck_Helo.jpg|this old picture]]. Considering how Kara's painting looks and that she's religious (though not indoctrinated in any sort of clerical form, unlike Chief Tyrol's parentage), does anyone think that (in hindsight), this may have been a hint to the Eye itself?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:37, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: It actually makes a lot of sense... Taking Zeus to mean Admiral Adama, and that Kara Thrace is the go-to pilot for reconnaissance missions, AND the paintings on the walls, we have a plausible theory in the works! —The preceding '''unsigned''' comment was added by {{User|Alcibiades}}.
: Are you kidding me?! They set this episode up a year ago! --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: I find it pretty hard to believe too, but that painting ''really really really'' looks like the art in the temple. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 20:41, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Maybe they though it would be a nice idea to take that painting, put it in the Temple more than a season later, and see if we notice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::It's a painting in her room and part of the column in the temple. :) --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:31, 19 December 2006 (CST)
: So Starbuck is an artist. She paints The Eye of Jupiter. Is it a known symbol or is this the first time anyone else has seen it? If it's not well-known, what does that say about Starbuck? Doesn't it make her prescient? Maybe her true calling is as an oracle. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:29, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::I'm with Catrope here. If I'm remembering my "Valley Of Darkness" podcast correctly, Tahmoh and Katee painted the apartment themselves, without any direction from Ron or the rest of the show crew. It's quite possible that someone noticed that particular pattern and decided to make it significant. And, hey, maybe she ''is'' an Oracle who just hasn't realized that she has the gift. Give the girl some chamalla and see what she can do. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Starbuck found a spiritual calling to fill the enormous gaps in her soul that she tries to fill with sex, booze, speed, duty, and violence. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:33, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:A friend of mine told me he though the painting and the decoration looked a lot like a star or an explosion, and then brought up the word "supernova". Could this picture be some sort of reference to the star going supernova? (I must admit I'm contradicting myself here, because I said earlier I thought the similarity to be some sort of an inside joke. Of course it's possible that Sackhoff&Penikett accidentally painted something that looked like an explosion, and that's why the writers chose that particular painting.) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:36, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== 18 Casualties & Relevance to "The Passage" ==

If 18 people were lost from '''The Passage''' episode, that means that 17 (at most) were aboard those two lost civilian ships, right? I'm only bringing this up to clarify what transpired — from that, and what we saw, the Raptors would pair up with a civilian ship, and that ship's passenger complement would be transferred onto ''Galactica'' (more heavily shielded, combat FTL drive) for the ferry run through the cluster. The civilian ship would then be crewed by an absolute bare minimum number of crewers. Then, when the group reached the other side of the cluster, the passengers would be transported back to their ships (if they survived the passage), the ships would remain at "Algae-planet", and ''Galactica'' would turn around and go back to the original side to repeat the cycle over again for a new group of civilian ships?

Am I reading/viewing this right? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:53, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:The ships were manned by skeleton crews. That was even mentioned in "The Passage" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:01, 16 December 2006 (CST)

: Don't forget that 14 days have transpired. there could have been more births in the fleet. I just came up with the difference from the two episodes--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

== Humanoid Cylons recognize each other on sight ==

While back on New Craprica, Number 3 knew right away that it was Sharon Agathon. Of course, who else would be trying to remove the ship's launch keys?

This episode, we see that Athena knew on sight that this Number Eight was Boomer. Interesting.

Can Cylons tell on sight which of the copies they are? It's already established that the bulletheads can't.

Note in last weeks episode, Baltar was able to pick The D'anna number three out of the hallway on sight, even though there is an identically dressed number three in the same hallway. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 16:50, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Those two instances do prove that they do recognize one another, which was hinted at in the "[[Cylon Agent]]" page. I guess now it's more than a hint. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:54, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Names of marines==
Has anyone heard (or seen in close captions) the names of the marines that were with Starbuck and Dualla? I know one of them is [[Fischer]], but the other three? I heard something like: Criggs, Verek, Ditko. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:According to the caption, it's Griggs and Varrick; the spelling/pronouncation of the third lad is anyone else's guess. For some reason, the closed caption for this episode doesn't pick up everything for me. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:48, 17 December 2006 (CST)

::OK, we know that it's [[Fischer]], [[Griggs]], [[Varrick]], [[Henick]] and [[Ditko]]. Since after she says "Henick and Ditko" the camera centers first on the black guy and then on the bald guy, can we assume that the first one is Henick and the latter one is Ditko, and the one in a hat is Griggs? It's conjectural, but looks reasonable to me and it would be nice to add pictures to their articles. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 14:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Location of the Eye? ==

At the end of the episode, Tyrol says something about "the sky will open, and the eye will be revealed." Did that make anyone else think of the star going nova? -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 22:15, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Good idea, but is it possible that such a "blowup" could be predicted in the sacred scrolls thousands of years ago? -- [[User:SuperMMX|SuperMMX]] 01:15, 17 December 2006 (CST)
::Why not? A race of humans capable of traveling from Kobol to Earth probably knows at least as much about stellar evolution as the Colonials [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:39, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: The [[Sacred Scrolls]] have so far contained information about [[Laura Roslin]] being sick, [[Sharon Agathon]] helping them to find the [[Tomb of Athena]], and more... In addition to various prophetic dreams... Sure, they could have predicted it. -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 11:26, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:When Tyrol commented about blowing up the Temple, I already thought "What if the Eye is INSIDE the pillar and they have to blow it up to get it out?" But surely an explosion destroying the entire system would destroy the Eye as well? And if it didn't, the Eye would not be easy to find between the debris of an entire planet. But blowing up a pillar doesn't exactly qualify as "the sky will open"... Maybe it refers to blowing up the roof or something like that... --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:04, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: Note the shaft of light streaming across the central pillar in the final scenes of the episode. Perhaps something will be revealed when it becomes centered upon the prominent symbol seen there. --[[User:Spidey3|Spidey3]] 12:29, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::That was the way my mind was working. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:39, 18 December 2006 (CST)
I believe that the Sky Opening Up will be the explosion of the nuclear weaponry activating or destroying something which will then reveal the Eye. --[[User:Teal Thanatos|Teal Thanatos]]

== Boomer in the brig? ==

Did Boomer get thrown in the galactica brig once Athena pointed her out? Was she allowed to return to the Basestars? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:49, 17 December 2006 (CST)

I doubt it because they probably would have it done right there rather than holding her outside first. I'm sure they let her leave with the others and advised her not to let the door hit on the arse on the way out. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:46, 17 December 2006 (CST)

:Besides, the least thing they need on ''Galactica'' right now would be Boomer to break out of the brig, throw on a uniform and have a "Guess the Sharon" contest. Aside from that, I expect that kind of trite plotwork I just mentioned from lesser sci-fi series, not this one.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Summary ==

We really need a longer summary up there, the only point it currently mentions is kind of random -_- --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:58, 17 December 2006 (CST)

== D'anna's search for the five vs. the Temple of Five ==

I haven't seen much discussion on the connection between "the five" Cylons and the Temple of the Five. Since the Temple was built by the 13th tribe, a connection doesn't seem likely in a conventional linear timeline; but like the painting in Starbuck's apartment, it's hard to dismiss as a mere coincidence.

Such a connection does, however, clear up some verisimilitude issues for me – namely, the rate at which the Cylon's biological technology advanced in relation to both Cylon and Colonial conventional technology.

In less than 40 years' time, the Cylons were able to develop the Cylon Agents – and in such a way that made indiscernable from humans – and all of the ressurection technology that went with it. Meanwhile, their conventional, mechanical technology hasn't made nearly the same leaps. And Colonial technology hasn't advanced much at all. Pegasus was a much more formidable vessel than Galactica, but only in terms of size and firepower. Technologically speaking, they weren't that dissimilar. Everyone's still using nuclear missles as their most advanced form of weaponry.

Clearly, the Cylons have had a little help. Now, with dual references to a group of five that must not be named, we're starting to get an idea of from where that help may have come.

I'm not sure how that jibes with the Cylon's monotheistic religion (also established within those 40 years), versus the Colonies' polytheism, but I'm sure Mr.Moore has it worked out.

How great it is to have a show with a fleshed out story line already established, as opposed to the "make it up as we go" approach to shows like Star Trek (all incarnations), X-Files and Lost over our last 40 years. {{unsigned|Tylonius}}

:To ''Battlestar's'' credit, it did take a while to flesh out the story from a viewer's perspective, but what we know is quite intriguing. Their God and the Colonial gods may be one and the same, and may change how the Cylons treat the Colonials and vice versa. I don't think the five faces will be all shown, but we might see one. And yes, it is good to enjoy a show that makes a greater effort to maintain a consistent storyline. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:01, 18 December 2006 (CST)

::Time may not be an issue. Remember the Colonial Scriptures are full of prophecies, it wouldn't be too farfetched to assume that the Temple of Five could've been constructed for something before it happened, for the purpose of making it happen in due time.

::The Five could do whatever releated them to the temple much like Roslin is directly related to finding the tomb Athena, even though she lived thousands of years after everything else was set.

::This is all speculation, of course, but oh well....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 13:59, 19 December 2006 (CST)

:::The Final Five are directly connected to the Temple of Five: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/12/one_of_the_cent.html -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:16, 20 December 2006 (CST)

::::“Essentially the Temple of the Five is directly connected to the five Cylons we have not seen.” - RDM
::::I've been thinking about the ambiguous ''sins'' the [[Hybrid]] mentions, that appear to be in regards to the Five. My working theory is that the five priests who served "The One Who Cannot Be..." and the Five Cylon Models who served the Cylon God both committed the ''sin'' of Rebellion, and that both dieties they rebelled against are one and the same. I also (big leap now), think that Model One is among the Rebel Five. Being rebel ''Angels of God'' (as Virtual-Six refers to herself), that would make One the RDM-equivalent to TOS-Lucifer, now wouldn't it? Chief and first of the (from the cylon perspective) "fallen" angels (as opposed to speculation that One ''is'' the Cylon God) --[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 02:16, 23 December 2006 (CST)

== Human Nicknames ==
I cropped the following from the episode summary. Nothing against either point, just taking it off until somebody can figure out how to reconcile it into a single level deep bullet point (or points).
Cropped text:
*This is the first time the Cylons use "human" names on the basestar when not speaking to Baltar. D'Anna is named by Caprica-Six and another Number Three. Cavil's name is used by D'Anna.
**It is possible that these names are nicknames for the Cylons who've been amongst the humans (much like Caprica-Six), but it could also be the writers weaseling out of coming up with numbers for Cavil, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]] and [[Simon]]. In ''[[The Passage]]'', D'Anna even mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons".
Thanks. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Err how about:
*This episode marks the first time the Cylons use "human" names when not speaking to Baltar: Caprica-Six and another Three call D'Anna by her human name, who in turn uses Cavil's name. These could be nicknames for Cylons who've been living among humans (cf. [[Caprica-Six]]).
*Once again, the writers have dodged the issue of [[Cavil]]'s, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s and [[Simon]]'s numbers. In "[[Torn]]", Caprica-Six says "The ones you know as Leoben...", in "[[The Passage]]" Number Three mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons" and in this episode a Three simply calls one of the Cavils "Cavil".

Please correct my style here, I didn't know exactly how to quote/paraphrase things like "one of the Simons" etc. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:One bullet point might be enough if the second part is connected with a word like "thus". However we shouldn't use "weasling". It sounds too negative and critical where criticism isn't really needed. Maybe something like "dodging the issue" or "circumventing"? That means the same and isn't as POV.
:Btw: episode names aren't italicized, but put in quotation marks --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Edit first post, episode titles quoted instead of italicized, second bullet point reprashed and "weaseling" changed to "dodged".
I don't think joining the bullet points with "this" between them is going to make this any clearer. I also don't think it's necessary, as both points may be related but analyse different things (the remaining numbers vs. Cylon naming convention). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:28, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:I think the writers are working with established names for convenience. They may not want to create a number yet to not confuse some viewers or there may be a grand scheme of introducing more numbers later in the season or another season that involves the 5 unknown cylon models. They could be maintaining flexibility for themselves in this case. They also know that the people who care the most are us die-hard fans and they can drag us through the mud without giving us more info, but I don't think so with as generous and courteous as Ngarenn is on BW:OC.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 11:10, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::It wouldn't be too hard to introduce a new number though. We've heard plenty of statements like "We Threes think we can't take the risk.", ideal statements to introduce new numbers with. Of course these numbers aren't a big deal, but die-hard fans tend to like to know these details. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::True. Though the more detail the introduce, the more chances they have to get it wrong. Even with the few model numbers we have revealed RDM sometimes has [[Podcast:The_Passage#Act_1|difficulty keeping them straight]], confusing the Eight's (Sharons) with the Three's (D'annas). Either way, we'll be here, documenting. I sometimes wonder if we're (the die-hard detail documenters) aren't his worst nightmares (if we even bothers thinking about us). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:52, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::::I always thought it was a nice nod to buckaroo banzai where all the villains had the same first name. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 22:05, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::I believe it would make sense that there is a plan with rolling out the remaining agent numbers. For example, whether or not "One" is one of the missing Five has a great deal of bearing on the development of the cylon narrative, and so would be kept quiet until the episode revealing that fact. If He/She is one of the missing Five, but "Two" is not, then Two's identity ([[Cavil]], [[Leoben]], or [[Simon]]) also has a great deal of bearing on the narrative. Cavil has been shown using some leverage on Three. He's got my money for being Two. I think One is with the missing Five.--[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 22:58, 25 December 2006 (CST)

== Question on article ==

*When did [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] go over to the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons']] way of thinking? In this episode she clearly doesn't seem to think of herself as human anymore like she did in "[[Downloaded]]."
:I had assumed that by LDYB, II that the Cylons had gone over to Boomer and Caprica-Six's way of thinking, hence their (C-six and Boomer) sudden rise to power as well as the sudden Cylon cease-fire. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:24, 19 December 2006 (CST)

== Hera ==

I cannot believe that Adm. Adama has apparently no idea what happened to Hera. He was involved in this discussion in [[Downloaded]]. He should knew that Hera and her foster mother moved to [[New Caprica]]. I am very surprised that he became so angry after Roslin told him that she kept the child in her school. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 17:21, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:Adama and Roslin only agreed in "[[Downloaded]]" that Sharon cannot be allowesd raise the baby. Maybe he assumed/was told that Hera was killed by Cottle? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:34, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::That they concluded at the discussion that the child should be killed would fit with this episode events and Baltars look at the end of "Downloaded" when being chided by his internal six. However that option was mentioned onscreen and the entire tone of the conversation at that point makes it seem somewhat unlikely that this would been the final decision. Given that Baltar was never in on the adoption-plot (he apparently didn't know Hera was alive on New Caprica) and we now know Adama didn't know about it either the discussion outcome must have been either to kill the child or to postpone the decision (with Heras apparent death solving the problem). I'm quite willing to buy that Adama believed the child had died a natural death, given that complication in a hybrid between man and machine were to exspected. But I have troubles with Roslin doing it all behind Adamas back (why did she have to do that?) and Adama not making a decision whatever immediately (in Downloaded). [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 17:40, 21 December 2006 (CST)

== Recent Summary Reorganization Problems ==

I'm normally OK about reorganization of a summary, but the recent one handled by SgtPayne creates more work and confusion. Links previously added are missing, conventions once there are missing, and the narrative flow of the summary is extremely confusing. Normally we can break up events by location (events on Galactica, basestars, planets) because they are mostly separate events that don't directly connect, but this episode has both Cylons and Colonial events occurring in response to each other and in "real-time." I am ''this close'' to rolling back the summary and adding edits made afterwards to restore both narrative flow and conventions, but I wanted comments from others first. As an admin I would just roll it back because of all the wikilinking and convention breakage, but it's more than that. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:36, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:This is one that I might suggest we do "Act" reporting summary. So the events are intertwined. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:56, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::I believe that's exactly what the summary contained before that infamous edit: a chronological report of the events in this episode. Since everything and everyone interacts with eachother and is at the same place, that would be a logical choice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:03, 20 December 2006 (CST) (I hate edit conflicts)
:I haven't checked it for style and links, but I agree that the summary should be chronological. Splitting up the locations is fine if they aren't related. But as you said, here they are heavily interwined and dependent on each other --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:57, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:'''Revert.''' It looked better the way it was. The new split makes for a very confusing read. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)

I have reverted the article and restored relevant edits made after that reorganization. One persistant edit that I keep changing involves the "shaft of light" in the Temple as Tyrol is inspecting the symbology in the Temple. That "shaft" is Tyrol's flashlight beam. While that direct light ''might'' do something unexpected as it approaches the central target-shaped symbol, it's not coming from some mystic source within the structure. I've clarified this in the article. Contributors are always free to edit it, but its fairly clear, so analysis should be used to interpret what it might do. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:48, 20 December 2006 (CST)

In light of the recent reversion, I should drop my two cents in regarding the "reorganization". When I first read the article, I felt that it was too "narrative" rather than "summary", which is what the section suggests. The consolidation was an attempt to make the information as concise as possible. I also attempted to keep as many reference links as necessary. In regards to the location split, this was done in line with previous articles, which had definitive locations. My apologies if it confused readers, but it should be said that summaries are just that, and should not be play-by-play accounts of the episode. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 12:18, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:The location split you introduced is good practice when there are multiple storylines that do not interfere with eachother. A nice example of that is "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]". In most episodes this is the case (end s1-begin s2 even had 3 or 4 separate storylines), but in this particular episode the three locations affect eachother so greatly that the split you introduced makes for extemely confusing reading: a bullet point in the basestar story references events told in the Galactica part, and viceverse. (Let's not even start about the Algae Planet part). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:45, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::You bring up a good point. In trying to put it together, there were some areas where I wasn't sure where to put it. On the whole, I was looking to clean it up a bit. Trying to read it line-for-line blurs out after a while... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 14:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::I've broken up the summary into acts. It seems to solve both problems. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:24, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::aye. nice job. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:34, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::::I concur. It definitely cleans up the look of the page. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:55, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Missile Tubes==
Where exactly are they and shouldnt that be an article in "Galactica Areas" Snorkel378

:They are located on the dorsal side of the ship, slightly forward of the four guns ahead of the Colonial seal, and sit in two rows of six. And sure, why not create an article in that section? -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:12, 29 December 2006 (CST)

== More Nested Analysis ==
*The [[tylium]] planned for the mines could only come from their single Raptor. This supports the [[Substances in the Re-imagined Series#The Tylium Question|high energy yield of the fuel]] that, at the same time, would not sacrifice the Raptor's flight ability.
**It's also possible that the tylium used was fuel stored at the camp to power its generators and/or refuel the Raptors and other ships involved in the harvest.
Please resolve these into either one or two single-level bullets, then re-add to the article. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:56, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:Done. I also updated the nuke count in this section. Admiral Adama orders launch tubes four through ten loaded, which means he's prepared seven nuclear warheads, not six. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:05, 22 December 2006 (CST)
::Nicely done. Thanks! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:51, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Playing with the date? ==

In Kobol's Last Gleaming, they stated the ruins on Kobol were 2000 years old, "around the time of the exodus of the 13 tribes". When they found the beacon at the Lion's Head Nebula, they said it was 3000 years old, and now they're saying the Temple of Five is at least 4000 years old. Each time they give a new date a thousand years earlier, it seems to still coincide with the exodus date of the thirteenth tribe.

Am I the only one noticing this inconsistancy?

: My memory may be off, but I was under the impression that the 13th tribe left Kobol long before the other twelve. So... maybe the 13th tribe left 4k years ago, and the rest left 2k years later. Fanwankery? Spotty memory on my part? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 02:08, 25 December 2006 (CST)

::Both, sort of. The date in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I" refers to all thirteen tribes collectively. In "A Measure of Salvation" and "The Eye of Jupiter", they refer to the thirteenth tribe alone.
::'''Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I'''
:::Roslin: How old are the ruins?
:::Billy: We won't know for sure until they send a ground team, but the initial estimates have it on the order of approximately 2,000 years.
:::Elosha: That's around the time the thirteen tribes first left Kobol
::'''A Measure of Salvation'''
:::Adama: According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3,000 years ago. Right around the time that the Thirteenth Colony left Kobol.
::'''The Eye of Jupiter'''
:::Tyrol: Our initial radiocarbon dating suggests that the temple's at least 4,000 years old, which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe.
::--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:16, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:::Here's a thought. What if this isn't an accident? We've speculated already that humanity might have emigrated from Earth to Kobol before the thirteenth tribe returned. If the further away from Kobol we get, the older the artifacts we find, what does that tell us? That the thirteenth tribe was traveling not from Kobol to Earth, but from Earth to Kobol. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 06:03, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::Well, it may not be an accident, but the Colonials seem to think that the 13th tribe left Kobol for Earth. So why, upon finding that the artifacts get older as they journey further from Kobol/closer to Earth, would they conclude that the dating analysis confirms their scriptures? Put another way, if they dates say the tribe went from Earth to Kobol, but the scriptures say they went from Kobol to Earth, why aren't the Colonials confused? It's an interesting idea, nonetheless. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:29, 31 December 2006 (CST)

:::::Okay, it could also be that we're giving the Colonials too much credit in their dating. Elosha is a priest. Maybe her date of 2,000 is based on scripture, not fact. Also, the date of 4,000 could just mean that it predates the time that they knew the other 12 colonies left Kobol, thus it had to be built by the 13th tribe. The 13th tribe may have had outposts all throughout the galaxy while still calling Kobol home. Furthermore, since there are apparently 21,000 years of recorded history, maybe to the Colonials a few thousand years of inaccuracy in dating don't really make a difference. You could compare it to modern day humans who confuse the 15th and 16th centuries. Of course, now I'm fully in the territory of fanwanking/making up excuses. The seven months/nine months disparity with regard to the Colonial election was never even acknowledged, so there is a good possibility these inconsistent dates are just a product of sloppiness. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:40, 31 December 2006 (CST)

Nut we Don't know how long it took to get everyone from earth off of kobol because it would take awhile to get huge civilizations away from a planet.Snorkel378

== Dichotomy of Signs to Earth==

I find it rather interesting that the first real sign to Earth that they found was a satellite/probe (first found by the Cylons). This would represent the high tech sign-post to Earth. The second sign to Earth is this hidden "Temple of Five" which is plainly a spiritual sign. Anyone else thing this is very interesting? I wonder what was on the satellite. Too bad RDM didn't allow them to examine it. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 21:57, 26 December 2006 (CST)

==The G-4==
Hey how come in the summary it doesnt mention the G-4 about to go off right by Tyrol? Snorkel378

:*Unaware how events are escalating around and above him, Chief Tyrol illuminates the carved writings of the Temple with his flashlight and reads the inscriptions, trying to locate the actual resting place of the Eye. At one point, his flashlight's beam moves close to the target-shaped symbol in the center of the central spire.
:How about we make that:
:*Having strapped explosives to the central spire of the temple, Chief Tyrol...
:--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:17, 31 December 2006 (CST)

Talk:The Eye of Jupiter/Archive3

2007-01-01T01:29:42Z

Drumstick: /* Playing with the date? */

I wonder if it has to do with that big red spot... *rollseyes* --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:48, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm more reminded of that Writer's Podcast thing, you know when they're saying "How many more times are we going to find an artifact like the Arrow of Apollo and have to search for them all? That feels like going back to the well too many times, I mean what are we going to say, "Athena has 10 sacred toenail clipping scattered across space, you have to find them all...?" :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:49, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:i'm thinking along the lines of some jewelry. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:57, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

::It sounds like a good plotline actually. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:05, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Merv - you just made me spill forth mein coca cola whilst reading the section about the sacred toenail clippings - thats too much for 3am on a sunday morning! Still, plot looks good, just wish Season 3 would hurry up and AIR dammit! :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 21:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
::::No, really, they make a joke about "Athena's toenail clippings" in that writer's podcast thing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:12, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I have a few possible meanings for 'eye of Jupiter' --[[User:starryniteynite|starryniteynite]]

1) Relatively obscure name for NGC 3242, a planetary nebula (A ring of illuminated gas expanding out from a sun-like star that's exhausted its fuel, and has lost its outer layers) a few thousand light years from Earth. Most astronomers call this 'the Ghost of Jupiter' instead, though some Hubble images have used this name. Its not a very unique PN (tho it has some gas streamers we can't quite explain), but it could be used as a navigational marker like M8 (the lagoon nebula). It is a very pretty nebula :)

2) "Eye of Jupiter" was the Greek/Roman name for the sun, which lead to today's 'all seeing eye' symbol of the free masons and on the pyramid in US currency

3)Adama=Zeus=Jupiter...yes, they tend to use Greek vs. Roman names, but the titles are not always consistent with this convention, and we have also seen evidence for non Greek mythological names (Isis, for example). The rest of it could be wordplay too...'eye' might refer to someone acting as Adama's eyes, rather than his eyes literally (just as 'The captain's hand refereed to Lee acting as Gardner's XO, or his hand, rather than some captain's literal hand)

4)A reference to Jupiter's big red spot, a huge hurricane-like storm on the planet's surface. Just like the "bastille Day" title, this could reference something in the episode, but not directly...they might travel through a similar storm. This has actually been done before in the miniseries, when Galactica travels into the storm at Ragnar

5) The tried and true, ancient object meaning...just like the arrow of Apollo directly references a character, but has no link to the character himself, this could just be a pretty piece of bling..

Personally, I would love #1, but only because it'd make me 2/2 for BSG objects in my thesis and I'm a total, unabashed geek. I think its probably #2, however, and they find some sort of navigational means of finding Earth (like a picture of Earth w/ distances& directions to three pulsars or very unique objects

== Duelling Sharons ==

So did anyone else get a sense of animosity/jealousy between the two Sharons? While it seems that Boomer has accepted her place amongst the Cylons and no longer considers herself a part of the humans, it also seems that she's a bit jealous of Athena's "taking her place", if you could call it that. Likewise, it also seemed that aside from her duties as a Colonial officer, Athena's refusal to let Boomer in with Adama was also somewhat out of personal distrust, ironically the same distrust of the Cylons that her fellow Colonial colleagues have.

Also, while Boomer told Athena about Hera's condition out of possible concern of the child (possible strain of humanity left in her? Cylon imperative? Or something else?), seems to me that Boomer enjoyed bursting her "sister"'s bubble on that. Talk about sibling rivalry there.

It'll be interesting to see if there will be any further Sharon vs. Sharon confrontations in the series.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 23:55, 15 December 2006 (CST)

:It was a very, very interesting dynamic. In any other show, we would have had a knock-down dragout "catfight." You hit the nail on the head. This episode was prime stuff. And, we on the wiki should be commended: our ''Galactica'' nuke count is right on the money! (Either that, or the show is using ''us'' as a source! :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:20, 16 December 2006 (CST)

::Does that mean we can finally change the "Class-D Nuclear Warhead" to something completely different, since their nukes ''aren't'' Class-D? :P --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:42, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Image==
Let's find an image that actually occurs in this episode. Maybe the wide shot of Tyrol in the temple? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Heh which one? to me it seems the Chief was a bit wide in ALL shots ; how could he gain weight while the fleet was starving? the chief definitely deserves the Lee Adama Fat-Ass trophy --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 03:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:Maybe it was Chief, and not Dr. Cottle, that got all of Kat's energy bars from the last ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:25, 16 December 2006 (CST)

So... is someone with the means actually going to replace the image with one relevant to this episode? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 21:12, 20 December 2006 (CST)

:Silly joking aside, I agree that the picture should be replaced. I'd do it, but I don't have a good screencap --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:34, 23 December 2006 (CST)

:I happen to have the episode, so, it's done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:57, 23 December 2006 (CST)

::Well, I still see a thumbnail of the old image here and there (e.g. on the main page or on Mercifull's user page). -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:09, 27 December 2006 (CST)

:::You may need to purge your browser's image cache to see the new image. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:12, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::I've just purged my Maxthon's image cache a moment ago and I still see an old thumbnail. Tried that also with Opera and Firefox -- all the same. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 04:27, 28 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Starbuck survive?==
Horray for the carelessness of adverts! Within ten minutes we knew the answer to that one. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Aside from that, it's going to continue the cycle of Soap Opera unease there, if Dee's the one sent to go get Starbuck back. Can't wait to see the uncomfortable stares on that one, especially if (as I suspect) Dee set up Starbuck to be the "eye in the sky" '''hoping''' the Cylons would shoot her down.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Who else was supposed to fly the mission? Looks like Lee and Kara are the only two qualified pilots on the ground and Lee is needed in overall command. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:34, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Too good to be true==
When we Baltar's voice over ''Galactica'''s speaker, the closed caption actually identifies him as "Cylon over speaker". I know that's not really meant to be taken as anything, but with all the speculation, it seems like a shining goof, or maybe even someone taking a good piss out of the [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|whole thing]]. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Nuking the Planet==

Does anyone else think that the nuclear missiles have the ability to be detonated remotely, before they reach their target? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:44, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Not to mention abort code transmissions, etc. Makes you wonder if the missiles were set for "one shot, one kill" mode, where they could not be recalled.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Or perhaps the missiles can be aborted, until they reach a critical flight time. Could make for a ''very'' tense moment or two. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:Is it just me or didn't he actually give the order to fire. He said "release of nuclear weapons is now authorized". That might sound strange, but I took that to be a preliminary order to firing. For example that now even Tigh would be able to launch them on his say --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:03, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::No, you're correct on that; essentially all they were doing was opening the "barn doors". I was discussing the hypotheticals of the missiles, if they should be launched in the next ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:33, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:::Aye, we're just jumping the gun a little, and discussing possibles ways out of it, if Adama does indeed decide to launch :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 02:17, 21 December 2006 (CST)

::::Am I the only one who thinks he might be targeting the nukes for the Raiders on their way to the surface? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:53, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:::::Then why this-
:::::'''Adama''':Load target package three-bravo. Set ground zero for the underground structure.
::::: -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:19, 29 December 2006 (CST)

:::::: Damn, I missed that. Consider me stumped, then. -[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:17, 30 December 2006 (CST)

== WTF moment ==

I was on the [[Karl Agathon]] page, updating it for this ep's news, when I came across [[:Image:Valley_of_Darkness-Starbuck_Helo.jpg|this old picture]]. Considering how Kara's painting looks and that she's religious (though not indoctrinated in any sort of clerical form, unlike Chief Tyrol's parentage), does anyone think that (in hindsight), this may have been a hint to the Eye itself?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:37, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: It actually makes a lot of sense... Taking Zeus to mean Admiral Adama, and that Kara Thrace is the go-to pilot for reconnaissance missions, AND the paintings on the walls, we have a plausible theory in the works! —The preceding '''unsigned''' comment was added by {{User|Alcibiades}}.
: Are you kidding me?! They set this episode up a year ago! --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: I find it pretty hard to believe too, but that painting ''really really really'' looks like the art in the temple. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 20:41, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Maybe they though it would be a nice idea to take that painting, put it in the Temple more than a season later, and see if we notice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::It's a painting in her room and part of the column in the temple. :) --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:31, 19 December 2006 (CST)
: So Starbuck is an artist. She paints The Eye of Jupiter. Is it a known symbol or is this the first time anyone else has seen it? If it's not well-known, what does that say about Starbuck? Doesn't it make her prescient? Maybe her true calling is as an oracle. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:29, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::I'm with Catrope here. If I'm remembering my "Valley Of Darkness" podcast correctly, Tahmoh and Katee painted the apartment themselves, without any direction from Ron or the rest of the show crew. It's quite possible that someone noticed that particular pattern and decided to make it significant. And, hey, maybe she ''is'' an Oracle who just hasn't realized that she has the gift. Give the girl some chamalla and see what she can do. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Starbuck found a spiritual calling to fill the enormous gaps in her soul that she tries to fill with sex, booze, speed, duty, and violence. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:33, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:A friend of mine told me he though the painting and the decoration looked a lot like a star or an explosion, and then brought up the word "supernova". Could this picture be some sort of reference to the star going supernova? (I must admit I'm contradicting myself here, because I said earlier I thought the similarity to be some sort of an inside joke. Of course it's possible that Sackhoff&Penikett accidentally painted something that looked like an explosion, and that's why the writers chose that particular painting.) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:36, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== 18 Casualties & Relevance to "The Passage" ==

If 18 people were lost from '''The Passage''' episode, that means that 17 (at most) were aboard those two lost civilian ships, right? I'm only bringing this up to clarify what transpired — from that, and what we saw, the Raptors would pair up with a civilian ship, and that ship's passenger complement would be transferred onto ''Galactica'' (more heavily shielded, combat FTL drive) for the ferry run through the cluster. The civilian ship would then be crewed by an absolute bare minimum number of crewers. Then, when the group reached the other side of the cluster, the passengers would be transported back to their ships (if they survived the passage), the ships would remain at "Algae-planet", and ''Galactica'' would turn around and go back to the original side to repeat the cycle over again for a new group of civilian ships?

Am I reading/viewing this right? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:53, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:The ships were manned by skeleton crews. That was even mentioned in "The Passage" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:01, 16 December 2006 (CST)

: Don't forget that 14 days have transpired. there could have been more births in the fleet. I just came up with the difference from the two episodes--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

== Humanoid Cylons recognize each other on sight ==

While back on New Craprica, Number 3 knew right away that it was Sharon Agathon. Of course, who else would be trying to remove the ship's launch keys?

This episode, we see that Athena knew on sight that this Number Eight was Boomer. Interesting.

Can Cylons tell on sight which of the copies they are? It's already established that the bulletheads can't.

Note in last weeks episode, Baltar was able to pick The D'anna number three out of the hallway on sight, even though there is an identically dressed number three in the same hallway. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 16:50, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Those two instances do prove that they do recognize one another, which was hinted at in the "[[Cylon Agent]]" page. I guess now it's more than a hint. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:54, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Names of marines==
Has anyone heard (or seen in close captions) the names of the marines that were with Starbuck and Dualla? I know one of them is [[Fischer]], but the other three? I heard something like: Criggs, Verek, Ditko. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:According to the caption, it's Griggs and Varrick; the spelling/pronouncation of the third lad is anyone else's guess. For some reason, the closed caption for this episode doesn't pick up everything for me. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:48, 17 December 2006 (CST)

::OK, we know that it's [[Fischer]], [[Griggs]], [[Varrick]], [[Henick]] and [[Ditko]]. Since after she says "Henick and Ditko" the camera centers first on the black guy and then on the bald guy, can we assume that the first one is Henick and the latter one is Ditko, and the one in a hat is Griggs? It's conjectural, but looks reasonable to me and it would be nice to add pictures to their articles. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 14:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Location of the Eye? ==

At the end of the episode, Tyrol says something about "the sky will open, and the eye will be revealed." Did that make anyone else think of the star going nova? -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 22:15, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Good idea, but is it possible that such a "blowup" could be predicted in the sacred scrolls thousands of years ago? -- [[User:SuperMMX|SuperMMX]] 01:15, 17 December 2006 (CST)
::Why not? A race of humans capable of traveling from Kobol to Earth probably knows at least as much about stellar evolution as the Colonials [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:39, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: The [[Sacred Scrolls]] have so far contained information about [[Laura Roslin]] being sick, [[Sharon Agathon]] helping them to find the [[Tomb of Athena]], and more... In addition to various prophetic dreams... Sure, they could have predicted it. -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 11:26, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:When Tyrol commented about blowing up the Temple, I already thought "What if the Eye is INSIDE the pillar and they have to blow it up to get it out?" But surely an explosion destroying the entire system would destroy the Eye as well? And if it didn't, the Eye would not be easy to find between the debris of an entire planet. But blowing up a pillar doesn't exactly qualify as "the sky will open"... Maybe it refers to blowing up the roof or something like that... --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:04, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: Note the shaft of light streaming across the central pillar in the final scenes of the episode. Perhaps something will be revealed when it becomes centered upon the prominent symbol seen there. --[[User:Spidey3|Spidey3]] 12:29, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::That was the way my mind was working. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:39, 18 December 2006 (CST)
I believe that the Sky Opening Up will be the explosion of the nuclear weaponry activating or destroying something which will then reveal the Eye. --[[User:Teal Thanatos|Teal Thanatos]]

== Boomer in the brig? ==

Did Boomer get thrown in the galactica brig once Athena pointed her out? Was she allowed to return to the Basestars? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:49, 17 December 2006 (CST)

I doubt it because they probably would have it done right there rather than holding her outside first. I'm sure they let her leave with the others and advised her not to let the door hit on the arse on the way out. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:46, 17 December 2006 (CST)

:Besides, the least thing they need on ''Galactica'' right now would be Boomer to break out of the brig, throw on a uniform and have a "Guess the Sharon" contest. Aside from that, I expect that kind of trite plotwork I just mentioned from lesser sci-fi series, not this one.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Summary ==

We really need a longer summary up there, the only point it currently mentions is kind of random -_- --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:58, 17 December 2006 (CST)

== D'anna's search for the five vs. the Temple of Five ==

I haven't seen much discussion on the connection between "the five" Cylons and the Temple of the Five. Since the Temple was built by the 13th tribe, a connection doesn't seem likely in a conventional linear timeline; but like the painting in Starbuck's apartment, it's hard to dismiss as a mere coincidence.

Such a connection does, however, clear up some verisimilitude issues for me – namely, the rate at which the Cylon's biological technology advanced in relation to both Cylon and Colonial conventional technology.

In less than 40 years' time, the Cylons were able to develop the Cylon Agents – and in such a way that made indiscernable from humans – and all of the ressurection technology that went with it. Meanwhile, their conventional, mechanical technology hasn't made nearly the same leaps. And Colonial technology hasn't advanced much at all. Pegasus was a much more formidable vessel than Galactica, but only in terms of size and firepower. Technologically speaking, they weren't that dissimilar. Everyone's still using nuclear missles as their most advanced form of weaponry.

Clearly, the Cylons have had a little help. Now, with dual references to a group of five that must not be named, we're starting to get an idea of from where that help may have come.

I'm not sure how that jibes with the Cylon's monotheistic religion (also established within those 40 years), versus the Colonies' polytheism, but I'm sure Mr.Moore has it worked out.

How great it is to have a show with a fleshed out story line already established, as opposed to the "make it up as we go" approach to shows like Star Trek (all incarnations), X-Files and Lost over our last 40 years. {{unsigned|Tylonius}}

:To ''Battlestar's'' credit, it did take a while to flesh out the story from a viewer's perspective, but what we know is quite intriguing. Their God and the Colonial gods may be one and the same, and may change how the Cylons treat the Colonials and vice versa. I don't think the five faces will be all shown, but we might see one. And yes, it is good to enjoy a show that makes a greater effort to maintain a consistent storyline. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:01, 18 December 2006 (CST)

::Time may not be an issue. Remember the Colonial Scriptures are full of prophecies, it wouldn't be too farfetched to assume that the Temple of Five could've been constructed for something before it happened, for the purpose of making it happen in due time.

::The Five could do whatever releated them to the temple much like Roslin is directly related to finding the tomb Athena, even though she lived thousands of years after everything else was set.

::This is all speculation, of course, but oh well....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 13:59, 19 December 2006 (CST)

:::The Final Five are directly connected to the Temple of Five: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/12/one_of_the_cent.html -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:16, 20 December 2006 (CST)

::::“Essentially the Temple of the Five is directly connected to the five Cylons we have not seen.” - RDM
::::I've been thinking about the ambiguous ''sins'' the [[Hybrid]] mentions, that appear to be in regards to the Five. My working theory is that the five priests who served "The One Who Cannot Be..." and the Five Cylon Models who served the Cylon God both committed the ''sin'' of Rebellion, and that both dieties they rebelled against are one and the same. I also (big leap now), think that Model One is among the Rebel Five. Being rebel ''Angels of God'' (as Virtual-Six refers to herself), that would make One the RDM-equivalent to TOS-Lucifer, now wouldn't it? Chief and first of the (from the cylon perspective) "fallen" angels (as opposed to speculation that One ''is'' the Cylon God) --[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 02:16, 23 December 2006 (CST)

== Human Nicknames ==
I cropped the following from the episode summary. Nothing against either point, just taking it off until somebody can figure out how to reconcile it into a single level deep bullet point (or points).
Cropped text:
*This is the first time the Cylons use "human" names on the basestar when not speaking to Baltar. D'Anna is named by Caprica-Six and another Number Three. Cavil's name is used by D'Anna.
**It is possible that these names are nicknames for the Cylons who've been amongst the humans (much like Caprica-Six), but it could also be the writers weaseling out of coming up with numbers for Cavil, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]] and [[Simon]]. In ''[[The Passage]]'', D'Anna even mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons".
Thanks. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Err how about:
*This episode marks the first time the Cylons use "human" names when not speaking to Baltar: Caprica-Six and another Three call D'Anna by her human name, who in turn uses Cavil's name. These could be nicknames for Cylons who've been living among humans (cf. [[Caprica-Six]]).
*Once again, the writers have dodged the issue of [[Cavil]]'s, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s and [[Simon]]'s numbers. In "[[Torn]]", Caprica-Six says "The ones you know as Leoben...", in "[[The Passage]]" Number Three mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons" and in this episode a Three simply calls one of the Cavils "Cavil".

Please correct my style here, I didn't know exactly how to quote/paraphrase things like "one of the Simons" etc. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:One bullet point might be enough if the second part is connected with a word like "thus". However we shouldn't use "weasling". It sounds too negative and critical where criticism isn't really needed. Maybe something like "dodging the issue" or "circumventing"? That means the same and isn't as POV.
:Btw: episode names aren't italicized, but put in quotation marks --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Edit first post, episode titles quoted instead of italicized, second bullet point reprashed and "weaseling" changed to "dodged".
I don't think joining the bullet points with "this" between them is going to make this any clearer. I also don't think it's necessary, as both points may be related but analyse different things (the remaining numbers vs. Cylon naming convention). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:28, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:I think the writers are working with established names for convenience. They may not want to create a number yet to not confuse some viewers or there may be a grand scheme of introducing more numbers later in the season or another season that involves the 5 unknown cylon models. They could be maintaining flexibility for themselves in this case. They also know that the people who care the most are us die-hard fans and they can drag us through the mud without giving us more info, but I don't think so with as generous and courteous as Ngarenn is on BW:OC.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 11:10, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::It wouldn't be too hard to introduce a new number though. We've heard plenty of statements like "We Threes think we can't take the risk.", ideal statements to introduce new numbers with. Of course these numbers aren't a big deal, but die-hard fans tend to like to know these details. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::True. Though the more detail the introduce, the more chances they have to get it wrong. Even with the few model numbers we have revealed RDM sometimes has [[Podcast:The_Passage#Act_1|difficulty keeping them straight]], confusing the Eight's (Sharons) with the Three's (D'annas). Either way, we'll be here, documenting. I sometimes wonder if we're (the die-hard detail documenters) aren't his worst nightmares (if we even bothers thinking about us). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:52, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::::I always thought it was a nice nod to buckaroo banzai where all the villains had the same first name. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 22:05, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::I believe it would make sense that there is a plan with rolling out the remaining agent numbers. For example, whether or not "One" is one of the missing Five has a great deal of bearing on the development of the cylon narrative, and so would be kept quiet until the episode revealing that fact. If He/She is one of the missing Five, but "Two" is not, then Two's identity ([[Cavil]], [[Leoben]], or [[Simon]]) also has a great deal of bearing on the narrative. Cavil has been shown using some leverage on Three. He's got my money for being Two. I think One is with the missing Five.--[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 22:58, 25 December 2006 (CST)

== Question on article ==

*When did [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] go over to the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons']] way of thinking? In this episode she clearly doesn't seem to think of herself as human anymore like she did in "[[Downloaded]]."
:I had assumed that by LDYB, II that the Cylons had gone over to Boomer and Caprica-Six's way of thinking, hence their (C-six and Boomer) sudden rise to power as well as the sudden Cylon cease-fire. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:24, 19 December 2006 (CST)

== Hera ==

I cannot believe that Adm. Adama has apparently no idea what happened to Hera. He was involved in this discussion in [[Downloaded]]. He should knew that Hera and her foster mother moved to [[New Caprica]]. I am very surprised that he became so angry after Roslin told him that she kept the child in her school. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 17:21, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:Adama and Roslin only agreed in "[[Downloaded]]" that Sharon cannot be allowesd raise the baby. Maybe he assumed/was told that Hera was killed by Cottle? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:34, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::That they concluded at the discussion that the child should be killed would fit with this episode events and Baltars look at the end of "Downloaded" when being chided by his internal six. However that option was mentioned onscreen and the entire tone of the conversation at that point makes it seem somewhat unlikely that this would been the final decision. Given that Baltar was never in on the adoption-plot (he apparently didn't know Hera was alive on New Caprica) and we now know Adama didn't know about it either the discussion outcome must have been either to kill the child or to postpone the decision (with Heras apparent death solving the problem). I'm quite willing to buy that Adama believed the child had died a natural death, given that complication in a hybrid between man and machine were to exspected. But I have troubles with Roslin doing it all behind Adamas back (why did she have to do that?) and Adama not making a decision whatever immediately (in Downloaded). [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 17:40, 21 December 2006 (CST)

== Recent Summary Reorganization Problems ==

I'm normally OK about reorganization of a summary, but the recent one handled by SgtPayne creates more work and confusion. Links previously added are missing, conventions once there are missing, and the narrative flow of the summary is extremely confusing. Normally we can break up events by location (events on Galactica, basestars, planets) because they are mostly separate events that don't directly connect, but this episode has both Cylons and Colonial events occurring in response to each other and in "real-time." I am ''this close'' to rolling back the summary and adding edits made afterwards to restore both narrative flow and conventions, but I wanted comments from others first. As an admin I would just roll it back because of all the wikilinking and convention breakage, but it's more than that. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:36, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:This is one that I might suggest we do "Act" reporting summary. So the events are intertwined. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:56, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::I believe that's exactly what the summary contained before that infamous edit: a chronological report of the events in this episode. Since everything and everyone interacts with eachother and is at the same place, that would be a logical choice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:03, 20 December 2006 (CST) (I hate edit conflicts)
:I haven't checked it for style and links, but I agree that the summary should be chronological. Splitting up the locations is fine if they aren't related. But as you said, here they are heavily interwined and dependent on each other --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:57, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:'''Revert.''' It looked better the way it was. The new split makes for a very confusing read. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)

I have reverted the article and restored relevant edits made after that reorganization. One persistant edit that I keep changing involves the "shaft of light" in the Temple as Tyrol is inspecting the symbology in the Temple. That "shaft" is Tyrol's flashlight beam. While that direct light ''might'' do something unexpected as it approaches the central target-shaped symbol, it's not coming from some mystic source within the structure. I've clarified this in the article. Contributors are always free to edit it, but its fairly clear, so analysis should be used to interpret what it might do. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:48, 20 December 2006 (CST)

In light of the recent reversion, I should drop my two cents in regarding the "reorganization". When I first read the article, I felt that it was too "narrative" rather than "summary", which is what the section suggests. The consolidation was an attempt to make the information as concise as possible. I also attempted to keep as many reference links as necessary. In regards to the location split, this was done in line with previous articles, which had definitive locations. My apologies if it confused readers, but it should be said that summaries are just that, and should not be play-by-play accounts of the episode. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 12:18, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:The location split you introduced is good practice when there are multiple storylines that do not interfere with eachother. A nice example of that is "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]". In most episodes this is the case (end s1-begin s2 even had 3 or 4 separate storylines), but in this particular episode the three locations affect eachother so greatly that the split you introduced makes for extemely confusing reading: a bullet point in the basestar story references events told in the Galactica part, and viceverse. (Let's not even start about the Algae Planet part). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:45, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::You bring up a good point. In trying to put it together, there were some areas where I wasn't sure where to put it. On the whole, I was looking to clean it up a bit. Trying to read it line-for-line blurs out after a while... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 14:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::I've broken up the summary into acts. It seems to solve both problems. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:24, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::aye. nice job. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:34, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::::I concur. It definitely cleans up the look of the page. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:55, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Missile Tubes==
Where exactly are they and shouldnt that be an article in "Galactica Areas" Snorkel378

:They are located on the dorsal side of the ship, slightly forward of the four guns ahead of the Colonial seal, and sit in two rows of six. And sure, why not create an article in that section? -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:12, 29 December 2006 (CST)

== More Nested Analysis ==
*The [[tylium]] planned for the mines could only come from their single Raptor. This supports the [[Substances in the Re-imagined Series#The Tylium Question|high energy yield of the fuel]] that, at the same time, would not sacrifice the Raptor's flight ability.
**It's also possible that the tylium used was fuel stored at the camp to power its generators and/or refuel the Raptors and other ships involved in the harvest.
Please resolve these into either one or two single-level bullets, then re-add to the article. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:56, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:Done. I also updated the nuke count in this section. Admiral Adama orders launch tubes four through ten loaded, which means he's prepared seven nuclear warheads, not six. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:05, 22 December 2006 (CST)
::Nicely done. Thanks! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:51, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Playing with the date? ==

In Kobol's Last Gleaming, they stated the ruins on Kobol were 2000 years old, "around the time of the exodus of the 13 tribes". When they found the beacon at the Lion's Head Nebula, they said it was 3000 years old, and now they're saying the Temple of Five is at least 4000 years old. Each time they give a new date a thousand years earlier, it seems to still coincide with the exodus date of the thirteenth tribe.

Am I the only one noticing this inconsistancy?

: My memory may be off, but I was under the impression that the 13th tribe left Kobol long before the other twelve. So... maybe the 13th tribe left 4k years ago, and the rest left 2k years later. Fanwankery? Spotty memory on my part? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 02:08, 25 December 2006 (CST)

::Both, sort of. The date in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I" refers to all thirteen tribes collectively. In "A Measure of Salvation" and "The Eye of Jupiter", they refer to the thirteenth tribe alone.
::'''Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I'''
:::Roslin: How old are the ruins?
:::Billy: We won't know for sure until they send a ground team, but the initial estimates have it on the order of approximately 2,000 years.
:::Elosha: That's around the time the thirteen tribes first left Kobol
::'''A Measure of Salvation'''
:::Adama: According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3,000 years ago. Right around the time that the Thirteenth Colony left Kobol.
::'''The Eye of Jupiter'''
:::Tyrol: Our initial radiocarbon dating suggests that the temple's at least 4,000 years old, which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe.
::--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:16, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:::Here's a thought. What if this isn't an accident? We've speculated already that humanity might have emigrated from Earth to Kobol before the thirteenth tribe returned. If the further away from Kobol we get, the older the artifacts we find, what does that tell us? That the thirteenth tribe was traveling not from Kobol to Earth, but from Earth to Kobol. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 06:03, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::Well, it may not be an accident, but the Colonials seem to think that the 13th tribe left Kobol for Earth. So why, upon finding that the artifacts get older as they journey further from Kobol/closer to Earth, would they conclude that the dating analysis confirms their scriptures? Put another way, if they dates say the tribe went from Earth to Kobol, but the scriptures say they went from Kobol to Earth, why aren't the Colonials confused? It's an interesting idea, nonetheless. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:29, 31 December 2006 (CST)

Nut we Don't know how long it took to get everyone from earth off of kobol because it would take awhile to get huge civilizations away from a planet.Snorkel378

== Dichotomy of Signs to Earth==

I find it rather interesting that the first real sign to Earth that they found was a satellite/probe (first found by the Cylons). This would represent the high tech sign-post to Earth. The second sign to Earth is this hidden "Temple of Five" which is plainly a spiritual sign. Anyone else thing this is very interesting? I wonder what was on the satellite. Too bad RDM didn't allow them to examine it. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 21:57, 26 December 2006 (CST)

==The G-4==
Hey how come in the summary it doesnt mention the G-4 about to go off right by Tyrol? Snorkel378

:*Unaware how events are escalating around and above him, Chief Tyrol illuminates the carved writings of the Temple with his flashlight and reads the inscriptions, trying to locate the actual resting place of the Eye. At one point, his flashlight's beam moves close to the target-shaped symbol in the center of the central spire.
:How about we make that:
:*Having strapped explosives to the central spire of the temple, Chief Tyrol...
:--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:17, 31 December 2006 (CST)

Talk:The Eye of Jupiter/Archive3

2007-01-01T01:27:49Z

Drumstick: /* Playing with the date? */

I wonder if it has to do with that big red spot... *rollseyes* --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:48, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm more reminded of that Writer's Podcast thing, you know when they're saying "How many more times are we going to find an artifact like the Arrow of Apollo and have to search for them all? That feels like going back to the well too many times, I mean what are we going to say, "Athena has 10 sacred toenail clipping scattered across space, you have to find them all...?" :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:49, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:i'm thinking along the lines of some jewelry. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:57, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

::It sounds like a good plotline actually. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:05, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Merv - you just made me spill forth mein coca cola whilst reading the section about the sacred toenail clippings - thats too much for 3am on a sunday morning! Still, plot looks good, just wish Season 3 would hurry up and AIR dammit! :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 21:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
::::No, really, they make a joke about "Athena's toenail clippings" in that writer's podcast thing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:12, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I have a few possible meanings for 'eye of Jupiter' --[[User:starryniteynite|starryniteynite]]

1) Relatively obscure name for NGC 3242, a planetary nebula (A ring of illuminated gas expanding out from a sun-like star that's exhausted its fuel, and has lost its outer layers) a few thousand light years from Earth. Most astronomers call this 'the Ghost of Jupiter' instead, though some Hubble images have used this name. Its not a very unique PN (tho it has some gas streamers we can't quite explain), but it could be used as a navigational marker like M8 (the lagoon nebula). It is a very pretty nebula :)

2) "Eye of Jupiter" was the Greek/Roman name for the sun, which lead to today's 'all seeing eye' symbol of the free masons and on the pyramid in US currency

3)Adama=Zeus=Jupiter...yes, they tend to use Greek vs. Roman names, but the titles are not always consistent with this convention, and we have also seen evidence for non Greek mythological names (Isis, for example). The rest of it could be wordplay too...'eye' might refer to someone acting as Adama's eyes, rather than his eyes literally (just as 'The captain's hand refereed to Lee acting as Gardner's XO, or his hand, rather than some captain's literal hand)

4)A reference to Jupiter's big red spot, a huge hurricane-like storm on the planet's surface. Just like the "bastille Day" title, this could reference something in the episode, but not directly...they might travel through a similar storm. This has actually been done before in the miniseries, when Galactica travels into the storm at Ragnar

5) The tried and true, ancient object meaning...just like the arrow of Apollo directly references a character, but has no link to the character himself, this could just be a pretty piece of bling..

Personally, I would love #1, but only because it'd make me 2/2 for BSG objects in my thesis and I'm a total, unabashed geek. I think its probably #2, however, and they find some sort of navigational means of finding Earth (like a picture of Earth w/ distances& directions to three pulsars or very unique objects

== Duelling Sharons ==

So did anyone else get a sense of animosity/jealousy between the two Sharons? While it seems that Boomer has accepted her place amongst the Cylons and no longer considers herself a part of the humans, it also seems that she's a bit jealous of Athena's "taking her place", if you could call it that. Likewise, it also seemed that aside from her duties as a Colonial officer, Athena's refusal to let Boomer in with Adama was also somewhat out of personal distrust, ironically the same distrust of the Cylons that her fellow Colonial colleagues have.

Also, while Boomer told Athena about Hera's condition out of possible concern of the child (possible strain of humanity left in her? Cylon imperative? Or something else?), seems to me that Boomer enjoyed bursting her "sister"'s bubble on that. Talk about sibling rivalry there.

It'll be interesting to see if there will be any further Sharon vs. Sharon confrontations in the series.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 23:55, 15 December 2006 (CST)

:It was a very, very interesting dynamic. In any other show, we would have had a knock-down dragout "catfight." You hit the nail on the head. This episode was prime stuff. And, we on the wiki should be commended: our ''Galactica'' nuke count is right on the money! (Either that, or the show is using ''us'' as a source! :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:20, 16 December 2006 (CST)

::Does that mean we can finally change the "Class-D Nuclear Warhead" to something completely different, since their nukes ''aren't'' Class-D? :P --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:42, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Image==
Let's find an image that actually occurs in this episode. Maybe the wide shot of Tyrol in the temple? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Heh which one? to me it seems the Chief was a bit wide in ALL shots ; how could he gain weight while the fleet was starving? the chief definitely deserves the Lee Adama Fat-Ass trophy --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 03:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:Maybe it was Chief, and not Dr. Cottle, that got all of Kat's energy bars from the last ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:25, 16 December 2006 (CST)

So... is someone with the means actually going to replace the image with one relevant to this episode? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 21:12, 20 December 2006 (CST)

:Silly joking aside, I agree that the picture should be replaced. I'd do it, but I don't have a good screencap --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:34, 23 December 2006 (CST)

:I happen to have the episode, so, it's done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:57, 23 December 2006 (CST)

::Well, I still see a thumbnail of the old image here and there (e.g. on the main page or on Mercifull's user page). -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:09, 27 December 2006 (CST)

:::You may need to purge your browser's image cache to see the new image. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:12, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::I've just purged my Maxthon's image cache a moment ago and I still see an old thumbnail. Tried that also with Opera and Firefox -- all the same. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 04:27, 28 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Starbuck survive?==
Horray for the carelessness of adverts! Within ten minutes we knew the answer to that one. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Aside from that, it's going to continue the cycle of Soap Opera unease there, if Dee's the one sent to go get Starbuck back. Can't wait to see the uncomfortable stares on that one, especially if (as I suspect) Dee set up Starbuck to be the "eye in the sky" '''hoping''' the Cylons would shoot her down.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Who else was supposed to fly the mission? Looks like Lee and Kara are the only two qualified pilots on the ground and Lee is needed in overall command. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:34, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Too good to be true==
When we Baltar's voice over ''Galactica'''s speaker, the closed caption actually identifies him as "Cylon over speaker". I know that's not really meant to be taken as anything, but with all the speculation, it seems like a shining goof, or maybe even someone taking a good piss out of the [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|whole thing]]. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Nuking the Planet==

Does anyone else think that the nuclear missiles have the ability to be detonated remotely, before they reach their target? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:44, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Not to mention abort code transmissions, etc. Makes you wonder if the missiles were set for "one shot, one kill" mode, where they could not be recalled.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Or perhaps the missiles can be aborted, until they reach a critical flight time. Could make for a ''very'' tense moment or two. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:Is it just me or didn't he actually give the order to fire. He said "release of nuclear weapons is now authorized". That might sound strange, but I took that to be a preliminary order to firing. For example that now even Tigh would be able to launch them on his say --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:03, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::No, you're correct on that; essentially all they were doing was opening the "barn doors". I was discussing the hypotheticals of the missiles, if they should be launched in the next ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:33, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:::Aye, we're just jumping the gun a little, and discussing possibles ways out of it, if Adama does indeed decide to launch :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 02:17, 21 December 2006 (CST)

::::Am I the only one who thinks he might be targeting the nukes for the Raiders on their way to the surface? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:53, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:::::Then why this-
:::::'''Adama''':Load target package three-bravo. Set ground zero for the underground structure.
::::: -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:19, 29 December 2006 (CST)

:::::: Damn, I missed that. Consider me stumped, then. -[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 05:17, 30 December 2006 (CST)

== WTF moment ==

I was on the [[Karl Agathon]] page, updating it for this ep's news, when I came across [[:Image:Valley_of_Darkness-Starbuck_Helo.jpg|this old picture]]. Considering how Kara's painting looks and that she's religious (though not indoctrinated in any sort of clerical form, unlike Chief Tyrol's parentage), does anyone think that (in hindsight), this may have been a hint to the Eye itself?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:37, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: It actually makes a lot of sense... Taking Zeus to mean Admiral Adama, and that Kara Thrace is the go-to pilot for reconnaissance missions, AND the paintings on the walls, we have a plausible theory in the works! —The preceding '''unsigned''' comment was added by {{User|Alcibiades}}.
: Are you kidding me?! They set this episode up a year ago! --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: I find it pretty hard to believe too, but that painting ''really really really'' looks like the art in the temple. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 20:41, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Maybe they though it would be a nice idea to take that painting, put it in the Temple more than a season later, and see if we notice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::It's a painting in her room and part of the column in the temple. :) --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:31, 19 December 2006 (CST)
: So Starbuck is an artist. She paints The Eye of Jupiter. Is it a known symbol or is this the first time anyone else has seen it? If it's not well-known, what does that say about Starbuck? Doesn't it make her prescient? Maybe her true calling is as an oracle. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:29, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::I'm with Catrope here. If I'm remembering my "Valley Of Darkness" podcast correctly, Tahmoh and Katee painted the apartment themselves, without any direction from Ron or the rest of the show crew. It's quite possible that someone noticed that particular pattern and decided to make it significant. And, hey, maybe she ''is'' an Oracle who just hasn't realized that she has the gift. Give the girl some chamalla and see what she can do. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Starbuck found a spiritual calling to fill the enormous gaps in her soul that she tries to fill with sex, booze, speed, duty, and violence. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:33, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:A friend of mine told me he though the painting and the decoration looked a lot like a star or an explosion, and then brought up the word "supernova". Could this picture be some sort of reference to the star going supernova? (I must admit I'm contradicting myself here, because I said earlier I thought the similarity to be some sort of an inside joke. Of course it's possible that Sackhoff&Penikett accidentally painted something that looked like an explosion, and that's why the writers chose that particular painting.) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:36, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== 18 Casualties & Relevance to "The Passage" ==

If 18 people were lost from '''The Passage''' episode, that means that 17 (at most) were aboard those two lost civilian ships, right? I'm only bringing this up to clarify what transpired — from that, and what we saw, the Raptors would pair up with a civilian ship, and that ship's passenger complement would be transferred onto ''Galactica'' (more heavily shielded, combat FTL drive) for the ferry run through the cluster. The civilian ship would then be crewed by an absolute bare minimum number of crewers. Then, when the group reached the other side of the cluster, the passengers would be transported back to their ships (if they survived the passage), the ships would remain at "Algae-planet", and ''Galactica'' would turn around and go back to the original side to repeat the cycle over again for a new group of civilian ships?

Am I reading/viewing this right? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:53, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:The ships were manned by skeleton crews. That was even mentioned in "The Passage" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:01, 16 December 2006 (CST)

: Don't forget that 14 days have transpired. there could have been more births in the fleet. I just came up with the difference from the two episodes--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

== Humanoid Cylons recognize each other on sight ==

While back on New Craprica, Number 3 knew right away that it was Sharon Agathon. Of course, who else would be trying to remove the ship's launch keys?

This episode, we see that Athena knew on sight that this Number Eight was Boomer. Interesting.

Can Cylons tell on sight which of the copies they are? It's already established that the bulletheads can't.

Note in last weeks episode, Baltar was able to pick The D'anna number three out of the hallway on sight, even though there is an identically dressed number three in the same hallway. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 16:50, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Those two instances do prove that they do recognize one another, which was hinted at in the "[[Cylon Agent]]" page. I guess now it's more than a hint. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:54, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Names of marines==
Has anyone heard (or seen in close captions) the names of the marines that were with Starbuck and Dualla? I know one of them is [[Fischer]], but the other three? I heard something like: Criggs, Verek, Ditko. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:According to the caption, it's Griggs and Varrick; the spelling/pronouncation of the third lad is anyone else's guess. For some reason, the closed caption for this episode doesn't pick up everything for me. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:48, 17 December 2006 (CST)

::OK, we know that it's [[Fischer]], [[Griggs]], [[Varrick]], [[Henick]] and [[Ditko]]. Since after she says "Henick and Ditko" the camera centers first on the black guy and then on the bald guy, can we assume that the first one is Henick and the latter one is Ditko, and the one in a hat is Griggs? It's conjectural, but looks reasonable to me and it would be nice to add pictures to their articles. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 14:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Location of the Eye? ==

At the end of the episode, Tyrol says something about "the sky will open, and the eye will be revealed." Did that make anyone else think of the star going nova? -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 22:15, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Good idea, but is it possible that such a "blowup" could be predicted in the sacred scrolls thousands of years ago? -- [[User:SuperMMX|SuperMMX]] 01:15, 17 December 2006 (CST)
::Why not? A race of humans capable of traveling from Kobol to Earth probably knows at least as much about stellar evolution as the Colonials [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:39, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: The [[Sacred Scrolls]] have so far contained information about [[Laura Roslin]] being sick, [[Sharon Agathon]] helping them to find the [[Tomb of Athena]], and more... In addition to various prophetic dreams... Sure, they could have predicted it. -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 11:26, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:When Tyrol commented about blowing up the Temple, I already thought "What if the Eye is INSIDE the pillar and they have to blow it up to get it out?" But surely an explosion destroying the entire system would destroy the Eye as well? And if it didn't, the Eye would not be easy to find between the debris of an entire planet. But blowing up a pillar doesn't exactly qualify as "the sky will open"... Maybe it refers to blowing up the roof or something like that... --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:04, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: Note the shaft of light streaming across the central pillar in the final scenes of the episode. Perhaps something will be revealed when it becomes centered upon the prominent symbol seen there. --[[User:Spidey3|Spidey3]] 12:29, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::That was the way my mind was working. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:39, 18 December 2006 (CST)
I believe that the Sky Opening Up will be the explosion of the nuclear weaponry activating or destroying something which will then reveal the Eye. --[[User:Teal Thanatos|Teal Thanatos]]

== Boomer in the brig? ==

Did Boomer get thrown in the galactica brig once Athena pointed her out? Was she allowed to return to the Basestars? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:49, 17 December 2006 (CST)

I doubt it because they probably would have it done right there rather than holding her outside first. I'm sure they let her leave with the others and advised her not to let the door hit on the arse on the way out. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:46, 17 December 2006 (CST)

:Besides, the least thing they need on ''Galactica'' right now would be Boomer to break out of the brig, throw on a uniform and have a "Guess the Sharon" contest. Aside from that, I expect that kind of trite plotwork I just mentioned from lesser sci-fi series, not this one.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Summary ==

We really need a longer summary up there, the only point it currently mentions is kind of random -_- --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:58, 17 December 2006 (CST)

== D'anna's search for the five vs. the Temple of Five ==

I haven't seen much discussion on the connection between "the five" Cylons and the Temple of the Five. Since the Temple was built by the 13th tribe, a connection doesn't seem likely in a conventional linear timeline; but like the painting in Starbuck's apartment, it's hard to dismiss as a mere coincidence.

Such a connection does, however, clear up some verisimilitude issues for me – namely, the rate at which the Cylon's biological technology advanced in relation to both Cylon and Colonial conventional technology.

In less than 40 years' time, the Cylons were able to develop the Cylon Agents – and in such a way that made indiscernable from humans – and all of the ressurection technology that went with it. Meanwhile, their conventional, mechanical technology hasn't made nearly the same leaps. And Colonial technology hasn't advanced much at all. Pegasus was a much more formidable vessel than Galactica, but only in terms of size and firepower. Technologically speaking, they weren't that dissimilar. Everyone's still using nuclear missles as their most advanced form of weaponry.

Clearly, the Cylons have had a little help. Now, with dual references to a group of five that must not be named, we're starting to get an idea of from where that help may have come.

I'm not sure how that jibes with the Cylon's monotheistic religion (also established within those 40 years), versus the Colonies' polytheism, but I'm sure Mr.Moore has it worked out.

How great it is to have a show with a fleshed out story line already established, as opposed to the "make it up as we go" approach to shows like Star Trek (all incarnations), X-Files and Lost over our last 40 years. {{unsigned|Tylonius}}

:To ''Battlestar's'' credit, it did take a while to flesh out the story from a viewer's perspective, but what we know is quite intriguing. Their God and the Colonial gods may be one and the same, and may change how the Cylons treat the Colonials and vice versa. I don't think the five faces will be all shown, but we might see one. And yes, it is good to enjoy a show that makes a greater effort to maintain a consistent storyline. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:01, 18 December 2006 (CST)

::Time may not be an issue. Remember the Colonial Scriptures are full of prophecies, it wouldn't be too farfetched to assume that the Temple of Five could've been constructed for something before it happened, for the purpose of making it happen in due time.

::The Five could do whatever releated them to the temple much like Roslin is directly related to finding the tomb Athena, even though she lived thousands of years after everything else was set.

::This is all speculation, of course, but oh well....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 13:59, 19 December 2006 (CST)

:::The Final Five are directly connected to the Temple of Five: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/12/one_of_the_cent.html -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:16, 20 December 2006 (CST)

::::“Essentially the Temple of the Five is directly connected to the five Cylons we have not seen.” - RDM
::::I've been thinking about the ambiguous ''sins'' the [[Hybrid]] mentions, that appear to be in regards to the Five. My working theory is that the five priests who served "The One Who Cannot Be..." and the Five Cylon Models who served the Cylon God both committed the ''sin'' of Rebellion, and that both dieties they rebelled against are one and the same. I also (big leap now), think that Model One is among the Rebel Five. Being rebel ''Angels of God'' (as Virtual-Six refers to herself), that would make One the RDM-equivalent to TOS-Lucifer, now wouldn't it? Chief and first of the (from the cylon perspective) "fallen" angels (as opposed to speculation that One ''is'' the Cylon God) --[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 02:16, 23 December 2006 (CST)

== Human Nicknames ==
I cropped the following from the episode summary. Nothing against either point, just taking it off until somebody can figure out how to reconcile it into a single level deep bullet point (or points).
Cropped text:
*This is the first time the Cylons use "human" names on the basestar when not speaking to Baltar. D'Anna is named by Caprica-Six and another Number Three. Cavil's name is used by D'Anna.
**It is possible that these names are nicknames for the Cylons who've been amongst the humans (much like Caprica-Six), but it could also be the writers weaseling out of coming up with numbers for Cavil, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]] and [[Simon]]. In ''[[The Passage]]'', D'Anna even mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons".
Thanks. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Err how about:
*This episode marks the first time the Cylons use "human" names when not speaking to Baltar: Caprica-Six and another Three call D'Anna by her human name, who in turn uses Cavil's name. These could be nicknames for Cylons who've been living among humans (cf. [[Caprica-Six]]).
*Once again, the writers have dodged the issue of [[Cavil]]'s, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s and [[Simon]]'s numbers. In "[[Torn]]", Caprica-Six says "The ones you know as Leoben...", in "[[The Passage]]" Number Three mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons" and in this episode a Three simply calls one of the Cavils "Cavil".

Please correct my style here, I didn't know exactly how to quote/paraphrase things like "one of the Simons" etc. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:One bullet point might be enough if the second part is connected with a word like "thus". However we shouldn't use "weasling". It sounds too negative and critical where criticism isn't really needed. Maybe something like "dodging the issue" or "circumventing"? That means the same and isn't as POV.
:Btw: episode names aren't italicized, but put in quotation marks --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Edit first post, episode titles quoted instead of italicized, second bullet point reprashed and "weaseling" changed to "dodged".
I don't think joining the bullet points with "this" between them is going to make this any clearer. I also don't think it's necessary, as both points may be related but analyse different things (the remaining numbers vs. Cylon naming convention). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:28, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:I think the writers are working with established names for convenience. They may not want to create a number yet to not confuse some viewers or there may be a grand scheme of introducing more numbers later in the season or another season that involves the 5 unknown cylon models. They could be maintaining flexibility for themselves in this case. They also know that the people who care the most are us die-hard fans and they can drag us through the mud without giving us more info, but I don't think so with as generous and courteous as Ngarenn is on BW:OC.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 11:10, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::It wouldn't be too hard to introduce a new number though. We've heard plenty of statements like "We Threes think we can't take the risk.", ideal statements to introduce new numbers with. Of course these numbers aren't a big deal, but die-hard fans tend to like to know these details. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::True. Though the more detail the introduce, the more chances they have to get it wrong. Even with the few model numbers we have revealed RDM sometimes has [[Podcast:The_Passage#Act_1|difficulty keeping them straight]], confusing the Eight's (Sharons) with the Three's (D'annas). Either way, we'll be here, documenting. I sometimes wonder if we're (the die-hard detail documenters) aren't his worst nightmares (if we even bothers thinking about us). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:52, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::::I always thought it was a nice nod to buckaroo banzai where all the villains had the same first name. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 22:05, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::I believe it would make sense that there is a plan with rolling out the remaining agent numbers. For example, whether or not "One" is one of the missing Five has a great deal of bearing on the development of the cylon narrative, and so would be kept quiet until the episode revealing that fact. If He/She is one of the missing Five, but "Two" is not, then Two's identity ([[Cavil]], [[Leoben]], or [[Simon]]) also has a great deal of bearing on the narrative. Cavil has been shown using some leverage on Three. He's got my money for being Two. I think One is with the missing Five.--[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 22:58, 25 December 2006 (CST)

== Question on article ==

*When did [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] go over to the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons']] way of thinking? In this episode she clearly doesn't seem to think of herself as human anymore like she did in "[[Downloaded]]."
:I had assumed that by LDYB, II that the Cylons had gone over to Boomer and Caprica-Six's way of thinking, hence their (C-six and Boomer) sudden rise to power as well as the sudden Cylon cease-fire. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:24, 19 December 2006 (CST)

== Hera ==

I cannot believe that Adm. Adama has apparently no idea what happened to Hera. He was involved in this discussion in [[Downloaded]]. He should knew that Hera and her foster mother moved to [[New Caprica]]. I am very surprised that he became so angry after Roslin told him that she kept the child in her school. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 17:21, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:Adama and Roslin only agreed in "[[Downloaded]]" that Sharon cannot be allowesd raise the baby. Maybe he assumed/was told that Hera was killed by Cottle? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:34, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::That they concluded at the discussion that the child should be killed would fit with this episode events and Baltars look at the end of "Downloaded" when being chided by his internal six. However that option was mentioned onscreen and the entire tone of the conversation at that point makes it seem somewhat unlikely that this would been the final decision. Given that Baltar was never in on the adoption-plot (he apparently didn't know Hera was alive on New Caprica) and we now know Adama didn't know about it either the discussion outcome must have been either to kill the child or to postpone the decision (with Heras apparent death solving the problem). I'm quite willing to buy that Adama believed the child had died a natural death, given that complication in a hybrid between man and machine were to exspected. But I have troubles with Roslin doing it all behind Adamas back (why did she have to do that?) and Adama not making a decision whatever immediately (in Downloaded). [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 17:40, 21 December 2006 (CST)

== Recent Summary Reorganization Problems ==

I'm normally OK about reorganization of a summary, but the recent one handled by SgtPayne creates more work and confusion. Links previously added are missing, conventions once there are missing, and the narrative flow of the summary is extremely confusing. Normally we can break up events by location (events on Galactica, basestars, planets) because they are mostly separate events that don't directly connect, but this episode has both Cylons and Colonial events occurring in response to each other and in "real-time." I am ''this close'' to rolling back the summary and adding edits made afterwards to restore both narrative flow and conventions, but I wanted comments from others first. As an admin I would just roll it back because of all the wikilinking and convention breakage, but it's more than that. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:36, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:This is one that I might suggest we do "Act" reporting summary. So the events are intertwined. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:56, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::I believe that's exactly what the summary contained before that infamous edit: a chronological report of the events in this episode. Since everything and everyone interacts with eachother and is at the same place, that would be a logical choice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:03, 20 December 2006 (CST) (I hate edit conflicts)
:I haven't checked it for style and links, but I agree that the summary should be chronological. Splitting up the locations is fine if they aren't related. But as you said, here they are heavily interwined and dependent on each other --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:57, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:'''Revert.''' It looked better the way it was. The new split makes for a very confusing read. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)

I have reverted the article and restored relevant edits made after that reorganization. One persistant edit that I keep changing involves the "shaft of light" in the Temple as Tyrol is inspecting the symbology in the Temple. That "shaft" is Tyrol's flashlight beam. While that direct light ''might'' do something unexpected as it approaches the central target-shaped symbol, it's not coming from some mystic source within the structure. I've clarified this in the article. Contributors are always free to edit it, but its fairly clear, so analysis should be used to interpret what it might do. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:48, 20 December 2006 (CST)

In light of the recent reversion, I should drop my two cents in regarding the "reorganization". When I first read the article, I felt that it was too "narrative" rather than "summary", which is what the section suggests. The consolidation was an attempt to make the information as concise as possible. I also attempted to keep as many reference links as necessary. In regards to the location split, this was done in line with previous articles, which had definitive locations. My apologies if it confused readers, but it should be said that summaries are just that, and should not be play-by-play accounts of the episode. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 12:18, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:The location split you introduced is good practice when there are multiple storylines that do not interfere with eachother. A nice example of that is "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]". In most episodes this is the case (end s1-begin s2 even had 3 or 4 separate storylines), but in this particular episode the three locations affect eachother so greatly that the split you introduced makes for extemely confusing reading: a bullet point in the basestar story references events told in the Galactica part, and viceverse. (Let's not even start about the Algae Planet part). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:45, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::You bring up a good point. In trying to put it together, there were some areas where I wasn't sure where to put it. On the whole, I was looking to clean it up a bit. Trying to read it line-for-line blurs out after a while... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 14:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::I've broken up the summary into acts. It seems to solve both problems. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:24, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::aye. nice job. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:34, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::::I concur. It definitely cleans up the look of the page. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:55, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Missile Tubes==
Where exactly are they and shouldnt that be an article in "Galactica Areas" Snorkel378

:They are located on the dorsal side of the ship, slightly forward of the four guns ahead of the Colonial seal, and sit in two rows of six. And sure, why not create an article in that section? -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 19:12, 29 December 2006 (CST)

== More Nested Analysis ==
*The [[tylium]] planned for the mines could only come from their single Raptor. This supports the [[Substances in the Re-imagined Series#The Tylium Question|high energy yield of the fuel]] that, at the same time, would not sacrifice the Raptor's flight ability.
**It's also possible that the tylium used was fuel stored at the camp to power its generators and/or refuel the Raptors and other ships involved in the harvest.
Please resolve these into either one or two single-level bullets, then re-add to the article. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:56, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:Done. I also updated the nuke count in this section. Admiral Adama orders launch tubes four through ten loaded, which means he's prepared seven nuclear warheads, not six. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:05, 22 December 2006 (CST)
::Nicely done. Thanks! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:51, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Playing with the date? ==

In Kobol's Last Gleaming, they stated the ruins on Kobol were 2000 years old, "around the time of the exodus of the 13 tribes". When they found the beacon at the Lion's Head Nebula, they said it was 3000 years old, and now they're saying the Temple of Five is at least 4000 years old. Each time they give a new date a thousand years earlier, it seems to still coincide with the exodus date of the thirteenth tribe.

Am I the only one noticing this inconsistancy?

: My memory may be off, but I was under the impression that the 13th tribe left Kobol long before the other twelve. So... maybe the 13th tribe left 4k years ago, and the rest left 2k years later. Fanwankery? Spotty memory on my part? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 02:08, 25 December 2006 (CST)

::Both, sort of. The date in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I" refers to all thirteen tribes collectively. In "A Measure of Salvation" and "The Eye of Jupiter", they refer to the thirteenth tribe alone.
::'''Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I'''
:::Roslin: How old are the ruins?
:::Billy: We won't know for sure until they send a ground team, but the initial estimates have it on the order of approximately 2,000 years.
:::Elosha: That's around the time the thirteen tribes first left Kobol
::'''A Measure of Salvation'''
:::Adama: According to Cottle, the virus was an exact match to one reported over 3,000 years ago. Right around the time that the Thirteenth Colony left Kobol.
::'''The Eye of Jupiter'''
:::Tyrol: Our initial radiocarbon dating suggests that the temple's at least 4,000 years old, which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe.
::--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:16, 26 December 2006 (CST)

:::Here's a thought. What if this isn't an accident? We've speculated already that humanity might have emigrated from Earth to Kobol before the thirteenth tribe returned. If the further away from Kobol we get, the older the artifacts we find, what does that tell us? That the thirteenth tribe was traveling not from Kobol to Earth, but from Earth to Kobol. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 06:03, 28 December 2006 (CST)

::::Well, it may not be an accident, but the Colonials seem to think that the 13th tribe left Kobol for Earth. So why, upon finding that the artifacts get older as they journey further from Kobol/closer to Earth, would they conclude that the dating analysis confirms their scriptures? Put another way, if they dates say the tribe went from Earth to Kobol, but the scriptures say they went from Kobol to Earth, why aren't the Colonials confused? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:27, 31 December 2006 (CST)

Nut we Don't know how long it took to get everyone from earth off of kobol because it would take awhile to get huge civilizations away from a planet.Snorkel378

== Dichotomy of Signs to Earth==

I find it rather interesting that the first real sign to Earth that they found was a satellite/probe (first found by the Cylons). This would represent the high tech sign-post to Earth. The second sign to Earth is this hidden "Temple of Five" which is plainly a spiritual sign. Anyone else thing this is very interesting? I wonder what was on the satellite. Too bad RDM didn't allow them to examine it. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 21:57, 26 December 2006 (CST)

==The G-4==
Hey how come in the summary it doesnt mention the G-4 about to go off right by Tyrol? Snorkel378

:*Unaware how events are escalating around and above him, Chief Tyrol illuminates the carved writings of the Temple with his flashlight and reads the inscriptions, trying to locate the actual resting place of the Eye. At one point, his flashlight's beam moves close to the target-shaped symbol in the center of the central spire.
:How about we make that:
:*Having strapped explosives to the central spire of the temple, Chief Tyrol...
:--[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:17, 31 December 2006 (CST)

The Passage

2006-12-26T07:02:38Z

Drumstick: /* Notes */ misspelling

{{Episode Data
| title= The Passage
| image=Season 3 - Promo - The Passage - Kat.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 10
| guests= [[Lucy Lawless]] as [[Number Three]]
| writer= [[Jane Espenson]]
| story=
| director= [[Michael Nankin]]
| production= 310
| rating=
| US airdate= 2006-12-08
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| podcast = Y
| population= 41,420
| prev= [[Unfinished Business]]
| next= [[The Eye of Jupiter]]
}}

== Overview ==
:''Starvation threatens the population after the food-processing systems become contaminated, but the Fleet is cut off from a food source by the intense radiation put out by a huge star cluster. ''Galactica'''s pilots must guide the civilian vessels on a dangerous journey directly through the radiation.''

== Summary ==
=== On ''[[Galactica]]'' ===
*[[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] flies a [[Raptor]] through a blinding, immensely bright gas cloud. The Raptor's outer skin is charring from the intense heat. Athena is managing to fight off the intense radiation buildup surrounding her, thanks to her [[Cylon agent|Cylon physiology]], but a radiation monitor badge she wears is changing color from white, spotting to an ominous black.
*Elsewhere in the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]], President [[Laura Roslin]] summarizes the contamination of the basic foodstuff material storage used to feed everyone, from soldier to civilian. The situation is dire; 7 to 10 days of rations remain. The Fleet is starving.
*A group of pilots, including [[Lee Adama]], [[Kara Thrace]], [[Hot Dog]] and [[Louanne Katraine]], are combining what little food they have and sharing it, down to the last crumb.
*Admiral [[William Adama]] and his command staff await Athena's return from her reconnaisance mission to what they believe is a [[Algae planet|planet with algae]]. The algae, according to Dr. [[Cottle]], isn't extremely palatable but is protein-rich and will allow them to restock their food stores and survive. Athena is three hours late from return.
*Athena does make it back to ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''. While her radiation badge is black, her Cylon physiology protects her (although she is obviously uncomfortable). She reports success; the planet is teeming with algae.
*But the travel through the star cluster is extremely dangerous. Two [[FTL|jumps]] are required to reach the planet on the other side of the cluster, which cannot be circumnavigated. The navigation computers of any civilian ships inside the cluster would be inoperative due to insufficient shielding and the intense radiation leaves a ship only minutes to gather their bearings for the second jump out before they absorb a fatal dose of radiation. Any ship would also have to endure the intense heat as well.
*''Galactica'' alone cannot be used to ferry the people, and the civilian ships alone would not make the trip as they would get lost within the cluster cloud. There is too much algae for ''Galactica'' to bring the food to the people in time.
*The Adamas consider the use of the Raptors, whose navigation systems are radiation-hardened to protect against nuclear strikes, as pilot ships that will guide a group of civilian ships at a time by visual reckoning, relaying the proper jump coordinates once visual sighting is made to get the ships to the other side. Five jumps are needed, and skeleton crews are used on each civilian ship to limit the Fleet's possible losses, with the civilians temporarily transferred to ''Galactica'', which will survive the radiation effects thanks to the [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar's]] dense hull plating ([[Miniseries]]).
*A group of civilians are bunked on ''Galactica'' from the civilian ships. One of them recognizes Kat, but calls out for her by another name: "Sasha." Kat reacts angrily to the man, [[Enzo]], and barely acknowledges his call before warning him to back off.
*The pilots are briefed on the plan, and each given radiation badges. When Major Adama encourages the use of [[stims]], Kat objects, warning that stims work by boosting the body's metabolism. In their starvation state, the stims would make them ill. Adama leaves the use of the drug to the pilot's discretion.
*Colonel [[Saul Tigh]] returns to the [[CIC]] and is greeted by a round of applause from the crew. He promptly reminds them that they have "jobs to do," resuming his post as [[XO]] of ''Galactica''. Admiral Adama keeps a quiet smile to himself as he notices Tigh's return, knowing his friend would not care to be particularly noticed.
*The first outbound flight into the cluster begins. The ''[[Adriatic]]'' is lost when its Raptor guide, flown by [[Hot Dog]], cannot locate her.
*Successive trips continue, but another ship, the ''[[Carina]]'', guided by Kat, is lost as well, which greatly angers and saddens her. She stays in the cloud a few minutes too long during her extended search, and her radiation badge becomes dark.
*In the [[hangar deck]], Thrace notices Enzo interacting with Kat and gets suspicious. She later questions Enzo and later, Kat.
*Kat begs Thrace not to tell Admiral Adama about her past life as a drug runner and the fact that she acquired her name, "Louanne Katraine," from a child that died two days before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Cylon attack]], using it to clear ''Galactica'''s pilot screening when she was a [[nugget]]. Thrace accepts her offer, warning her to embrace who she really is.
*Feeling backed into a corner, Kat is physically stressed. Her hair is falling out, a sign of radiation poisoning. Fearful of what will happen to her if Admiral Adama finds out about her past, she chooses to continue her Raptor flights, swapping her radiation badge with [[Helo]]'s. She allows herself a sexual romp with Enzo before preparing for the last outbound flight.
*The last outbound trip is more destructive. Even ''Galactica'' cannot withstand the heat and begins to suffer heat-related decompression failures throughout its hull. Adama orders his son to wrap out visual sighting and perform the escape jump.
*Kat cannot find her last ship. Realizing she had already absorbed too much radiation, she elects to remain in the cloud to continue searching for her lost ship.
*''Galactica'' waits for several frightening minutes until both Kat's Raptor and the last civilian ship rejoin them.
*Kat is greeted by the command staff and many crewmembers to celebrate her accomplishment. The young pilot pumps her arms in the air and tries to remove her helmet before she collapses from radiation poisoning.
*In [[sickbay]], Kara Thrace talks to Kat, whose exposure to the cloud's radiation was too extreme. Thrace recants a part of her conversation with Kat and her origins, and tries unsuccessfully to leave Kat's bedside with a smile before leaving the dying pilot with a bottle of sleeping pills as a gesture of self-euthanization. Kat thanks her.
*Admiral Adama stands by Kat's bedside immediately after Thrace's departure. Kat attempts to confess her past, but Adama tells her that her past will not change the heroic thing she did for the Fleet. He gives her the status of [[CAG]] once more, a position she held from colonization of [[New Caprica]] to Major Adama's return to ''Galactica'', despite the fact that Kat will not survive to fly again.
*Adama stays at Kat's bedside, talking with her and how he would have loved to have had a third child, commenting that he, like his ex-wife, [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]], would have liked a daughter.
*Some time later, the pilots assemble in their [[Pilot ready rooms|ready room]] as Admiral Adama changes the pilot organization chart, placing Kat as the CAG.
*Kara Thrace enters ''Galactica'''s memorial hallway and tacks a photo of Kat on the board. She cries quietly as Lee Adama looks on from a distance.

=== On a [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]] ===
*Baltar notices that [[Number Three]] keeps going off somewhere and wonders what she is doing. [[Caprica-Six]] tells him that the other [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] are also concerned about Three's activities.
*Baltar confronts Three about her unexplained absences and surmises that she has been dying and [[Resurrection (RDM)|resurrecting]] over and over again.
*Baltar and Three discuss the [[final five]] Cylon agents, who are apparently the figures Three has been seeing between life and death. Baltar wonders aloud if he could be one of them, making him a hero to the Cylons instead of a traitor to the Colonials. Three tries to hold onto the memory of what they look like, but it always fades. Her drawings of them aren't very distinct.
*Baltar and Three visit the [[Hybrid]]'s chamber. Against Three's advice, Baltar reaches out to touch the Hybrid and she grabs his hand. More coherent than usual, the Hybrid says a number of cryptic clues and returns to her usual behavior.
*Baltar deduces from the clues that the Hybrid is referring to a planet where the [[Eye of Jupiter]] can be found, as well as something related to the final five. Baltar states that he is convinced that ''everything'' the Hybrid says has meaning.

== Questions ==
*Was the Fleet-wide failure of food-processing systems a result of sabotage? If so, were Cylons responsible, or someone else?
*If the star cluster emits so much radiation, how was the Fleet able to infer that a particular planet on the opposite side would be rich in algae?
*Was assisted suicide an accepted practice in the Colonies, even if not by a practicing physician?
*Are there going to be radiation consequences for the pilots exposed to the conditions of the star cluster, especially those pilots who did in fact have a black indicator?
*How many pilots and crew were lost on the two civilian ships ''Adriatic'' and ''Carina''? Will their loss cause problems for the civilians that used to live on them?
*Were there any other ships lost besides ''Adriatic'' and ''Carina''?
*Other Cylons were seen to attend Three during her resurrection in "[[Hero]]". How has she been able to keep subsequent resurrections secret?
**Are the 'nurse' Cylons at the Resurrection ship aware of Three's attempts to discover who the final five are? If so, are they remaining silent in hope that Three would accomplish this task?
*During the brief martial law when Roslin was ousted as President, she and Apollo hid inside a meat refigeration locker. Was all the "real" food, such as meat, fresh fruits, and drinks all used up or left behind on New Caprica?
*If there was no food contamination, how long would the Fleet's food supply have lasted?
*Is there a centralized food distribution system in place for the Fleet?
*Why are the [[final five]] Cylons kept so secretive? Why do they exist in the place between death and resurrection?
*Who will supplant [[Kat]] as squadron leader?

== Analysis ==
*Adama may have already abandoned his declaration from "[[Unfinished Business]]," as his treatment of Kat during her final hours suggests.
*The ranking shuffle resumes in this episode: Tigh returns to the CIC as XO, sending Helo back to the flight lines as a senior flight officer (his rank of Captain seems unaffected). At the end of the episode, Kat is posthumously given honorary CAG status, although Apollo is still ''de facto'' CAG.
*Baltar calls the Number Three "D'Anna", to which she responds. This may indicate acceptance of Baltar's custom of referring to and addressing some models by their "human" names—in this same scene, Baltar refers to "the relevant Simon" and in prior episodes refers to "one of the Dorals"' views on toilet paper. This custom is shared with the other humans, such as Ellen Tigh who mentions "one of the Brother Cavils," and Adama, who refers to both the [[Ragnar Anchorage]] copy and the stowaway copy in "[[Flesh and Bone]]" as "Leoben Conoy."
*Gaeta was one of the few in CIC not to applaud Tigh's return to duty. This may be due to lingering feelings of resentment over his treatment by Tigh and the [[The Circle|Circle]].
*Since this model has memories of viewing the footage acquired by the Galactica copy of D'anna Biers on Caprica (seen in flashback in "[[Hero]]"), we can rule out the possibility that both are the same individual.
*Number Three does not know what the final five Cylon agent models look like, at least not consciously.
*No anti-radiation injections were seen to be used by the pilots. Unless they were administered offscreen this could either mean that the Fleet's supplies are used up, or that even the medication doesn't help against such intense levels of stellar radiation. Oddly, pilots were not issue with anti-radiation suits (worn by the deck crew) or put on a rotation to limit their individual exposure.
*While it has not been conclusively established that the five figures are in fact the "Final Five" Cylon agents, the first sketch of the alleged "Final Five" that Number Three shows Baltar depicts two male and three female figures. If this proves accurate then of the twelve Cylon models there are six males and six females.
*Baltar's grooming has declined steadily since the Fall of the Colonies. While no longer a messy drunk as he was on [[New Caprica]], he has grown a scraggly and untrimmed beard.
* One of D'Anna's sketches in particular appears to depict the profile of a mustached and bearded male with long hair—a possible reference to Baltar; later in the episode after Baltar communes with the hybrid, D'Anna says "Could there be a connection between their gods and ours?" where "their" refers to the polytheistic human pantheon and "ours," the Cylon single god, a possible slip on her part indicating that she believes Baltar to be a Cylon, or that D'Anna believes Baltar has accepted the Cylon religion, and so no longer counts him as following human beliefs.
**She may be using "ours" to refer to all cylons, not just herself.
*"Find the hand that lies in the shadow of the light, in the eye of the husband of the eye of the cow," is what the Hybrid tells Baltar. Baltar analyses "the eye of the cow" to be Hera (since she was referred to as "cow-eyed Hera"). The husband of Hera is Jupiter, which yields: "Find the hand that lies in the shadow of the light, in the Eye of Jupiter." The Eye of Jupiter is also written about in the ancient texts, which prompts Three to believe there may be a connection to the Colonial and Cylon gods. According to Baltar, the Eye of Jupiter is most likely some kind of artifact (like the [[Arrow of Apollo]]), located on a planet in the shadow of a bright star cluster. The "hand" is believed to be a reference to the number five, meaning the Eye of Jupiter will contain or point to information about the Final Five. Interestingly, the Fleet has gathered protein from a planet in a bright star cluster in this episode. This will probably mean that the Cylons will run into the Colonials when they find the right planet, much like in "[[A Measure of Salvation]]," but reversed as the Cylons found the [[Lion's Head Nebula]] before the Fleet did.
*The possible connection between the Colonial pantheon and the Cylon god which Three comments on was previously indicated in "[[Exodus, Part I]]," by the statements of Oracle [[Dodona Selloi]], with whom Three conferred.

== Notes ==
*This is one of the few times an Air Group organization chart is visible. Kat, as the honorary [[CAG]], is in the top slot, while directly below her are the squadron leaders, which are [[Lee Adama|Apollo]], [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]], [[Two Times]], and a fourth whose name is never visible to the camera. Other names visible on the chart include [[Narcho]], [[Switch]], [[Chopper]], [[Raygun]], [[Helo]], [[Fuzzy]], [[Athena]], [[Racetrack]], and [[Sever]]. Pilots and [[ECO]]s may be listed below their squadron leaders in descending order of seniority, as both [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and [[Brendan Constanza|Hot Dog]], for example, are listed directly beneath Starbuck, and the two of them are among the senior flight officers for ''Galactica''.
*A [[Straits of Madagon|perilous journey]] by the [[The Fleet (TOS)|"rag-tag" Fleet]] in the [[Original Series]], where pilots are also critical to the Fleet's safety, appears in its series premiere, "[[Saga of a Star World]]."
*"The Passage" was written by ''Galactica'' newcomer [[Jane Espenson]]. The episode arose when the show brought in Dr. [[Kevin Grazier]], a scientist from the [[w:Jet Propulsion Laboratory|Jet Propulsion Laboratory]], who talked about how one would navigate through space; how one would figure out how to get from one point in the to universe to, for example, Earth. Grazier's talk prompted the story at the heart of Espenson's episode.
*On the memorial wall Kat's picture is placed below the one of [[Reilly]]'s girlfriend she herself put there in "[[Scar]]".
*This episode marks the destruction of two civilian ships, the ''[[Adriatic]]'' and ''[[Carina]]''. This will likely result in more crowded conditions on the other ships in [[the Fleet]].
*This is the second episode in which dialog has been censored in the [[w:Sci Fi Channel (United States)|Sci Fi Channel]] broadcast. Starbuck sarcastically proclaims she gave Dr. [[Cottle]] "[[w:fellatio|head]]" in response to Kat saying she gave him her protein bar.
*Though the actual dialog between Baltar and D'Anna employs the name "Jupiter," the closed-captioning subtitles uses "Zeus" instead. This discrepancy and the question as to why the Roman name Jupiter would be used instead of its Greek counterpart may indicate that the original script employed the name Zeus before. However, there is a precedent for using gods from the Roman pantheon; namely Mars and Mercury.
*[[Brendan Constanza|Brendan "Hot Dog" Constanza]] is now the only survivor of the three nuggets originally introduced in "[[Act of Contrition]]."
*[[Hoshi]] appears in the CIC, sharing Dualla's duties. Other ''Pegasus'' crew members to have made the transfer to ''Galactica'' include [[Marcia Case|Marcia "Showboat" Case]], seen on the flight roster at the end of the episode, and [[Noel Allison|Noel "Narcho" Allison]] seen in "[[Torn]]."
*When Starbuck puts Kat's picture on the memorial wall, a note just above it reads "God rest your souls" - not "''Gods'' rest your souls," a rare departure from the established [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies|Colonial polytheism]].

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

*''Adama and Tigh discuss the food shortage''
::'''Adama:''' I hear they're still eating paper. Is that true?
::'''Tigh:''' No. Paper shortage.

*''Starbuck gives a last minute pep talk to the pilots''
::'''Starbuck:''' Remember, we're all flying solo on this mission. So that means there'll be nobody there to bitch slap you if you start to get tired or start seeing little toasters on your wing.

*''Baltar and Three confront the Hybrid'':
::'''Hybrid''': [Suddenly grabs Baltar's hand] Intelligence! A mind that burns like a fire!
::'''Baltar''': Yes, I'm here.
::'''Hybrid''': Find the hand that lies in the shadow of the light, in the eye of the husband of the eye of the cow.
::'''Baltar''': [Removes his hand from the Hybrid's tank.]
::'''Three''': You all right? It just speaks nonsense, doesn't it?
::'''Baltar''': I don't think anything it says is nonsense.

== Official Statements ==
''In [[Ron Moore]]'s blog on [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/ July 27th, 2006]:''

:"We were pretty excited to have Jane too. I actually took Jane's first pitch way back in my early days at ''[[MemoryAlpha:Star Trek|Star Trek]]'' and I had the pleasure of buying what turned out to be her first sale. I hadn't seen her since, but I'd followed her career from afar and was very proud to see her do so well. Turns out that Jane was a huge fan of ''Galactica'' and really wanted to do a script for us, so we jumped on the chance. I think we're all hoping that we could get her on staff at some point in the future, but we'll have to wait and see how everything shakes out for Season Four -- and whether she's even available, she's very much in demand these days. Her episode this year is "The Passage" (originally Ep 9) and deals with a harrowing voyage of the rag-tag fleet and focuses on Kat."

''[[Jane Espenson]] discusses writing the episode''

: "My episode originally had a [[Laura Roslin|Laura]] story threaded through it that had to be cut in later drafts because there was just too much story in the episode as a whole, and I missed it, just because she was so much fun to write. And any character with a strong opinion on what's going on in the episode is always fun and easy to write.

: "The hardest stuff to write in this episode wasn't because of any hard-to-capture voices but because there was a big chunk of mission-planning exposition that had to be done as clearly and as quickly as possible. That is always the very hardest stuff to write, setting down the rules without sounding like a textbook. It was challenging, but so nice when I felt like I'd gotten it right."<ref>{{cite_web|url=http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/06/jane-espenson-answers-your-battlestar-questions/|title=TV Squad: Jane Espenson answers your Battlestar questions|date=6 December 2006|accessdate=11 December 2006|last=McDuffee|first=Keith|format=|language=English}}</ref>

''Epsenson talks about the scientific aspects of the episode:''

: "When I was given this episode, all the technical stuff about globular star clusters was given to me. And the writers were really patient in explaining technical stuff about the FTL drive and jump co-ordinates and the fact that you can't talk on the wireless over a jump-boundary -- I originally had Galactica in contact with Sharon-Athena while she out in the cluster doing her original recon, but that obviously didn't make sense. I received lots of help from the show's tech adviser, who is wonderful, and who explained all sorts of interesting things to me about how radiation differs from radioactivity and how gravitational forces are more likely to damage large ships than small ones.... The research that I really did on my own was about figuring out how the fleet had been making food prior to this crisis. The explanation was cut for length, but in one draft it was stated that the fleet "grew" meat from cloned cells and that it was this system that got so badly contaminated. As for the algae, I think that was already in place when I was given the story... it's just an obvious alternative protein source."<ref name="espenson-2">{{cite_web|url=http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/11/jane-espenson-on-post-the-passage-questions/|title=TV Squad: Jane Espenson on post-The Passage questions|date=11 November 2006|accessdate=11 November 2006|last=McDuffee|first=Keith|format=|language=English}}</ref>

''Espenson discusses the [[Hybrid]]'s dialogue:''

: "I wrote this for the Hybrid in that pre-grab moment: 'Seascape portrait of the woman-child cavern of the soul under pressure-heat ratio--' which is, I think, what we hear. But there is at least one BSG writer who can generate pages of beautiful, haunting and resonant Hybrid-speak at will. He writes lots of her stuff and more power to him!"<ref name="espenson-2"/>

''Espenson discusses scenes that were cut from the script due to time constraints:''

: "I think I got a more-than-fair edit! I was amazed! The draft that was shot was way too long -- we all knew it was too long. So lots of scenes had to be cut -- two Adama/Kat scenes that I can think of. A Lee/Dualla scene, a Lee/Starbuck scene, an Adama/Tigh scene, lots and lots of Sharon/Helo stuff... the fact that the episode holds together, that it makes sense and has emotional punch... wow. And that's not even counting lots of Cylon stuff, Laura stuff and [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] stuff that got cut before shooting! This show is so rich, the world is so full, and there are emotions along every axis between every pairing of characters, that it's incredibly easy to find things that you just HAVE to explore. This is part of what gives the series such a great voyeuristic quality... as a viewer you just KNOW that there are scenes that have played out between these people that you have never seen, and you get to infer what they must've been. I like that the edit of this episode hints at the things unseen. And I love that despite the time pressures, moments were allowed to play out... Kat watching her fellow pilots suffer, Kat in the mirror, the final hospital scene... I think it was a lovely edit."<ref name="espenson-2"/>

''Espenson discusses fan's expectation of humor from her stories and their pertinence to "The Passage":''

: "I know people expect humor from me. I hope they understand why, given a story about Kat's redemptive and unglamorous death, I kept the funny knob turned down -- couldn't resist the giddy Tigh-Adama scene, however, and my personal favorite line the piece, Baltar's "You've got goo in your hair." Anyway, I hope the fans liked what they saw; I hope it felt real; I hope I get to write more Battlestar episodes, and get to play some more with these wonderful characters and their tragic, human, uplifting lives."<ref name="espenson-2"/>

== Guest Stars ==
*[[Michael Hogan]] as Colonel [[Saul Tigh]]
* [[Aaron Douglas]] as Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]
*[[Tahmoh Penikett]] as Captain [[Karl Agathon|Karl "Helo" Agathon]]
* [[Alessandro Juliani]] as Lt. [[Felix Gaeta]]
*[[Kandyse McClure]] as [[Anastasia Dualla]]
*[[Luciana Carro]] as Captain [[Louanne Katraine|Louanne "Kat" Katraine]]
* [[Bodie Olmos]] as Lt. [[Brendan Constanza|Brendan "Hotdog" Constanza]]
* [[Leah Cairns]] as Lt. [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
* [[Sebastian Spence]] as [[Noel Allison|Noel "Narcho" Allison]]
* [[Donnelly Rhodes]] as Doctor [[Cottle]]
* [[Brad Dryborough]] as [[Hoshi]]
*[[Lucy Lawless]] as [[Number Three]]
*[[Tiffany Lyndall-Knight]] as the [[Hybrid]]
*[[G. Patrick Currie]] as [[Enzo]]
*[[Ian Rozylo]] as convulsing pilot

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:A to Z|Passage, The]]
[[Category:Episode Guide|Passage, The]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)|Passage, The]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Jane Espenson]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Nankin]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:The Eye of Jupiter/Archive3

2006-12-25T08:08:33Z

Drumstick: /* Playing with the date? */

I wonder if it has to do with that big red spot... *rollseyes* --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:48, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm more reminded of that Writer's Podcast thing, you know when they're saying "How many more times are we going to find an artifact like the Arrow of Apollo and have to search for them all? That feels like going back to the well too many times, I mean what are we going to say, "Athena has 10 sacred toenail clipping scattered across space, you have to find them all...?" :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:49, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:i'm thinking along the lines of some jewelry. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:57, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

::It sounds like a good plotline actually. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:05, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Merv - you just made me spill forth mein coca cola whilst reading the section about the sacred toenail clippings - thats too much for 3am on a sunday morning! Still, plot looks good, just wish Season 3 would hurry up and AIR dammit! :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 21:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
::::No, really, they make a joke about "Athena's toenail clippings" in that writer's podcast thing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:12, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I have a few possible meanings for 'eye of Jupiter' --[[User:starryniteynite|starryniteynite]]

1) Relatively obscure name for NGC 3242, a planetary nebula (A ring of illuminated gas expanding out from a sun-like star that's exhausted its fuel, and has lost its outer layers) a few thousand light years from Earth. Most astronomers call this 'the Ghost of Jupiter' instead, though some Hubble images have used this name. Its not a very unique PN (tho it has some gas streamers we can't quite explain), but it could be used as a navigational marker like M8 (the lagoon nebula). It is a very pretty nebula :)

2) "Eye of Jupiter" was the Greek/Roman name for the sun, which lead to today's 'all seeing eye' symbol of the free masons and on the pyramid in US currency

3)Adama=Zeus=Jupiter...yes, they tend to use Greek vs. Roman names, but the titles are not always consistent with this convention, and we have also seen evidence for non Greek mythological names (Isis, for example). The rest of it could be wordplay too...'eye' might refer to someone acting as Adama's eyes, rather than his eyes literally (just as 'The captain's hand refereed to Lee acting as Gardner's XO, or his hand, rather than some captain's literal hand)

4)A reference to Jupiter's big red spot, a huge hurricane-like storm on the planet's surface. Just like the "bastille Day" title, this could reference something in the episode, but not directly...they might travel through a similar storm. This has actually been done before in the miniseries, when Galactica travels into the storm at Ragnar

5) The tried and true, ancient object meaning...just like the arrow of Apollo directly references a character, but has no link to the character himself, this could just be a pretty piece of bling..

Personally, I would love #1, but only because it'd make me 2/2 for BSG objects in my thesis and I'm a total, unabashed geek. I think its probably #2, however, and they find some sort of navigational means of finding Earth (like a picture of Earth w/ distances& directions to three pulsars or very unique objects

== Duelling Sharons ==

So did anyone else get a sense of animosity/jealousy between the two Sharons? While it seems that Boomer has accepted her place amongst the Cylons and no longer considers herself a part of the humans, it also seems that she's a bit jealous of Athena's "taking her place", if you could call it that. Likewise, it also seemed that aside from her duties as a Colonial officer, Athena's refusal to let Boomer in with Adama was also somewhat out of personal distrust, ironically the same distrust of the Cylons that her fellow Colonial colleagues have.

Also, while Boomer told Athena about Hera's condition out of possible concern of the child (possible strain of humanity left in her? Cylon imperative? Or something else?), seems to me that Boomer enjoyed bursting her "sister"'s bubble on that. Talk about sibling rivalry there.

It'll be interesting to see if there will be any further Sharon vs. Sharon confrontations in the series.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 23:55, 15 December 2006 (CST)

:It was a very, very interesting dynamic. In any other show, we would have had a knock-down dragout "catfight." You hit the nail on the head. This episode was prime stuff. And, we on the wiki should be commended: our ''Galactica'' nuke count is right on the money! (Either that, or the show is using ''us'' as a source! :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:20, 16 December 2006 (CST)

::Does that mean we can finally change the "Class-D Nuclear Warhead" to something completely different, since their nukes ''aren't'' Class-D? :P --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:42, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Image==
Let's find an image that actually occurs in this episode. Maybe the wide shot of Tyrol in the temple? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Heh which one? to me it seems the Chief was a bit wide in ALL shots ; how could he gain weight while the fleet was starving? the chief definitely deserves the Lee Adama Fat-Ass trophy --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 03:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:Maybe it was Chief, and not Dr. Cottle, that got all of Kat's energy bars from the last ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:25, 16 December 2006 (CST)

So... is someone with the means actually going to replace the image with one relevant to this episode? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 21:12, 20 December 2006 (CST)

:Silly joking aside, I agree that the picture should be replaced. I'd do it, but I don't have a good screencap --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:34, 23 December 2006 (CST)

:I happen to have the episode, so, it's done. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:57, 23 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Starbuck survive?==
Horray for the carelessness of adverts! Within ten minutes we knew the answer to that one. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Aside from that, it's going to continue the cycle of Soap Opera unease there, if Dee's the one sent to go get Starbuck back. Can't wait to see the uncomfortable stares on that one, especially if (as I suspect) Dee set up Starbuck to be the "eye in the sky" '''hoping''' the Cylons would shoot her down.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Who else was supposed to fly the mission? Looks like Lee and Kara are the only two qualified pilots on the ground and Lee is needed in overall command. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:34, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Too good to be true==
When we Baltar's voice over ''Galactica'''s speaker, the closed caption actually identifies him as "Cylon over speaker". I know that's not really meant to be taken as anything, but with all the speculation, it seems like a shining goof, or maybe even someone taking a good piss out of the [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|whole thing]]. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Nuking the Planet==

Does anyone else think that the nuclear missiles have the ability to be detonated remotely, before they reach their target? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:44, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Not to mention abort code transmissions, etc. Makes you wonder if the missiles were set for "one shot, one kill" mode, where they could not be recalled.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 11:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Or perhaps the missiles can be aborted, until they reach a critical flight time. Could make for a ''very'' tense moment or two. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:Is it just me or didn't he actually give the order to fire. He said "release of nuclear weapons is now authorized". That might sound strange, but I took that to be a preliminary order to firing. For example that now even Tigh would be able to launch them on his say --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:03, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::No, you're correct on that; essentially all they were doing was opening the "barn doors". I was discussing the hypotheticals of the missiles, if they should be launched in the next ep.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:33, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:::Aye, we're just jumping the gun a little, and discussing possibles ways out of it, if Adama does indeed decide to launch :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 02:17, 21 December 2006 (CST)

::::Am I the only one who thinks he might be targeting the nukes for the Raiders on their way to the surface? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:53, 21 December 2006 (CST)

== WTF moment ==

I was on the [[Karl Agathon]] page, updating it for this ep's news, when I came across [[:Image:Valley_of_Darkness-Starbuck_Helo.jpg|this old picture]]. Considering how Kara's painting looks and that she's religious (though not indoctrinated in any sort of clerical form, unlike Chief Tyrol's parentage), does anyone think that (in hindsight), this may have been a hint to the Eye itself?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 12:37, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: It actually makes a lot of sense... Taking Zeus to mean Admiral Adama, and that Kara Thrace is the go-to pilot for reconnaissance missions, AND the paintings on the walls, we have a plausible theory in the works! —The preceding '''unsigned''' comment was added by {{User|Alcibiades}}.
: Are you kidding me?! They set this episode up a year ago! --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: I find it pretty hard to believe too, but that painting ''really really really'' looks like the art in the temple. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 20:41, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Maybe they though it would be a nice idea to take that painting, put it in the Temple more than a season later, and see if we notice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::It's a painting in her room and part of the column in the temple. :) --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:31, 19 December 2006 (CST)
: So Starbuck is an artist. She paints The Eye of Jupiter. Is it a known symbol or is this the first time anyone else has seen it? If it's not well-known, what does that say about Starbuck? Doesn't it make her prescient? Maybe her true calling is as an oracle. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 01:29, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::I'm with Catrope here. If I'm remembering my "Valley Of Darkness" podcast correctly, Tahmoh and Katee painted the apartment themselves, without any direction from Ron or the rest of the show crew. It's quite possible that someone noticed that particular pattern and decided to make it significant. And, hey, maybe she ''is'' an Oracle who just hasn't realized that she has the gift. Give the girl some chamalla and see what she can do. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Starbuck found a spiritual calling to fill the enormous gaps in her soul that she tries to fill with sex, booze, speed, duty, and violence. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:33, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:A friend of mine told me he though the painting and the decoration looked a lot like a star or an explosion, and then brought up the word "supernova". Could this picture be some sort of reference to the star going supernova? (I must admit I'm contradicting myself here, because I said earlier I thought the similarity to be some sort of an inside joke. Of course it's possible that Sackhoff&Penikett accidentally painted something that looked like an explosion, and that's why the writers chose that particular painting.) --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:36, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== 18 Casualties & Relevance to "The Passage" ==

If 18 people were lost from '''The Passage''' episode, that means that 17 (at most) were aboard those two lost civilian ships, right? I'm only bringing this up to clarify what transpired — from that, and what we saw, the Raptors would pair up with a civilian ship, and that ship's passenger complement would be transferred onto ''Galactica'' (more heavily shielded, combat FTL drive) for the ferry run through the cluster. The civilian ship would then be crewed by an absolute bare minimum number of crewers. Then, when the group reached the other side of the cluster, the passengers would be transported back to their ships (if they survived the passage), the ships would remain at "Algae-planet", and ''Galactica'' would turn around and go back to the original side to repeat the cycle over again for a new group of civilian ships?

Am I reading/viewing this right? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:53, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:The ships were manned by skeleton crews. That was even mentioned in "The Passage" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:01, 16 December 2006 (CST)

: Don't forget that 14 days have transpired. there could have been more births in the fleet. I just came up with the difference from the two episodes--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

== Humanoid Cylons recognize each other on sight ==

While back on New Craprica, Number 3 knew right away that it was Sharon Agathon. Of course, who else would be trying to remove the ship's launch keys?

This episode, we see that Athena knew on sight that this Number Eight was Boomer. Interesting.

Can Cylons tell on sight which of the copies they are? It's already established that the bulletheads can't.

Note in last weeks episode, Baltar was able to pick The D'anna number three out of the hallway on sight, even though there is an identically dressed number three in the same hallway. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 16:50, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Those two instances do prove that they do recognize one another, which was hinted at in the "[[Cylon Agent]]" page. I guess now it's more than a hint. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:54, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Names of marines==
Has anyone heard (or seen in close captions) the names of the marines that were with Starbuck and Dualla? I know one of them is [[Fischer]], but the other three? I heard something like: Criggs, Verek, Ditko. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:According to the caption, it's Griggs and Varrick; the spelling/pronouncation of the third lad is anyone else's guess. For some reason, the closed caption for this episode doesn't pick up everything for me. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:48, 17 December 2006 (CST)

::OK, we know that it's [[Fischer]], [[Griggs]], [[Varrick]], [[Henick]] and [[Ditko]]. Since after she says "Henick and Ditko" the camera centers first on the black guy and then on the bald guy, can we assume that the first one is Henick and the latter one is Ditko, and the one in a hat is Griggs? It's conjectural, but looks reasonable to me and it would be nice to add pictures to their articles. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 14:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Location of the Eye? ==

At the end of the episode, Tyrol says something about "the sky will open, and the eye will be revealed." Did that make anyone else think of the star going nova? -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 22:15, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Good idea, but is it possible that such a "blowup" could be predicted in the sacred scrolls thousands of years ago? -- [[User:SuperMMX|SuperMMX]] 01:15, 17 December 2006 (CST)
::Why not? A race of humans capable of traveling from Kobol to Earth probably knows at least as much about stellar evolution as the Colonials [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:39, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: The [[Sacred Scrolls]] have so far contained information about [[Laura Roslin]] being sick, [[Sharon Agathon]] helping them to find the [[Tomb of Athena]], and more... In addition to various prophetic dreams... Sure, they could have predicted it. -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 11:26, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:When Tyrol commented about blowing up the Temple, I already thought "What if the Eye is INSIDE the pillar and they have to blow it up to get it out?" But surely an explosion destroying the entire system would destroy the Eye as well? And if it didn't, the Eye would not be easy to find between the debris of an entire planet. But blowing up a pillar doesn't exactly qualify as "the sky will open"... Maybe it refers to blowing up the roof or something like that... --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:04, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: Note the shaft of light streaming across the central pillar in the final scenes of the episode. Perhaps something will be revealed when it becomes centered upon the prominent symbol seen there. --[[User:Spidey3|Spidey3]] 12:29, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::That was the way my mind was working. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:39, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Boomer in the brig? ==

Did Boomer get thrown in the galactica brig once Athena pointed her out? Was she allowed to return to the Basestars? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:49, 17 December 2006 (CST)

I doubt it because they probably would have it done right there rather than holding her outside first. I'm sure they let her leave with the others and advised her not to let the door hit on the arse on the way out. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:46, 17 December 2006 (CST)

:Besides, the least thing they need on ''Galactica'' right now would be Boomer to break out of the brig, throw on a uniform and have a "Guess the Sharon" contest. Aside from that, I expect that kind of trite plotwork I just mentioned from lesser sci-fi series, not this one.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 19:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Summary ==

We really need a longer summary up there, the only point it currently mentions is kind of random -_- --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:58, 17 December 2006 (CST)

== D'anna's search for the five vs. the Temple of Five ==

I haven't seen much discussion on the connection between "the five" Cylons and the Temple of the Five. Since the Temple was built by the 13th tribe, a connection doesn't seem likely in a conventional linear timeline; but like the painting in Starbuck's apartment, it's hard to dismiss as a mere coincidence.

Such a connection does, however, clear up some verisimilitude issues for me – namely, the rate at which the Cylon's biological technology advanced in relation to both Cylon and Colonial conventional technology.

In less than 40 years' time, the Cylons were able to develop the Cylon Agents – and in such a way that made indiscernable from humans – and all of the ressurection technology that went with it. Meanwhile, their conventional, mechanical technology hasn't made nearly the same leaps. And Colonial technology hasn't advanced much at all. Pegasus was a much more formidable vessel than Galactica, but only in terms of size and firepower. Technologically speaking, they weren't that dissimilar. Everyone's still using nuclear missles as their most advanced form of weaponry.

Clearly, the Cylons have had a little help. Now, with dual references to a group of five that must not be named, we're starting to get an idea of from where that help may have come.

I'm not sure how that jibes with the Cylon's monotheistic religion (also established within those 40 years), versus the Colonies' polytheism, but I'm sure Mr.Moore has it worked out.

How great it is to have a show with a fleshed out story line already established, as opposed to the "make it up as we go" approach to shows like Star Trek (all incarnations), X-Files and Lost over our last 40 years. {{unsigned|Tylonius}}

:To ''Battlestar's'' credit, it did take a while to flesh out the story from a viewer's perspective, but what we know is quite intriguing. Their God and the Colonial gods may be one and the same, and may change how the Cylons treat the Colonials and vice versa. I don't think the five faces will be all shown, but we might see one. And yes, it is good to enjoy a show that makes a greater effort to maintain a consistent storyline. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:01, 18 December 2006 (CST)

::Time may not be an issue. Remember the Colonial Scriptures are full of prophecies, it wouldn't be too farfetched to assume that the Temple of Five could've been constructed for something before it happened, for the purpose of making it happen in due time.

::The Five could do whatever releated them to the temple much like Roslin is directly related to finding the tomb Athena, even though she lived thousands of years after everything else was set.

::This is all speculation, of course, but oh well....--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 13:59, 19 December 2006 (CST)

:::The Final Five are directly connected to the Temple of Five: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/12/one_of_the_cent.html -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:16, 20 December 2006 (CST)

::::“Essentially the Temple of the Five is directly connected to the five Cylons we have not seen.” - RDM
::::I've been thinking about the ambiguous ''sins'' the [[Hybrid]] mentions, that appear to be in regards to the Five. My working theory is that the five priests who served "The One Who Cannot Be..." and the Five Cylon Models who served the Cylon God both committed the ''sin'' of Rebellion, and that both dieties they rebelled against are one and the same. I also (big leap now), think that Model One is among the Rebel Five. Being rebel ''Angels of God'' (as Virtual-Six refers to herself), that would make One the RDM-equivalent to TOS-Lucifer, now wouldn't it? Chief and first of the (from the cylon perspective) "fallen" angels (as opposed to speculation that One ''is'' the Cylon God) --[[User:Viperetto13|Viperetto13]] 02:16, 23 December 2006 (CST)

== Human Nicknames ==
I cropped the following from the episode summary. Nothing against either point, just taking it off until somebody can figure out how to reconcile it into a single level deep bullet point (or points).
Cropped text:
*This is the first time the Cylons use "human" names on the basestar when not speaking to Baltar. D'Anna is named by Caprica-Six and another Number Three. Cavil's name is used by D'Anna.
**It is possible that these names are nicknames for the Cylons who've been amongst the humans (much like Caprica-Six), but it could also be the writers weaseling out of coming up with numbers for Cavil, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]] and [[Simon]]. In ''[[The Passage]]'', D'Anna even mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons".
Thanks. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Err how about:
*This episode marks the first time the Cylons use "human" names when not speaking to Baltar: Caprica-Six and another Three call D'Anna by her human name, who in turn uses Cavil's name. These could be nicknames for Cylons who've been living among humans (cf. [[Caprica-Six]]).
*Once again, the writers have dodged the issue of [[Cavil]]'s, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s and [[Simon]]'s numbers. In "[[Torn]]", Caprica-Six says "The ones you know as Leoben...", in "[[The Passage]]" Number Three mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons" and in this episode a Three simply calls one of the Cavils "Cavil".

Please correct my style here, I didn't know exactly how to quote/paraphrase things like "one of the Simons" etc. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:One bullet point might be enough if the second part is connected with a word like "thus". However we shouldn't use "weasling". It sounds too negative and critical where criticism isn't really needed. Maybe something like "dodging the issue" or "circumventing"? That means the same and isn't as POV.
:Btw: episode names aren't italicized, but put in quotation marks --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Edit first post, episode titles quoted instead of italicized, second bullet point reprashed and "weaseling" changed to "dodged".
I don't think joining the bullet points with "this" between them is going to make this any clearer. I also don't think it's necessary, as both points may be related but analyse different things (the remaining numbers vs. Cylon naming convention). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:28, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:I think the writers are working with established names for convenience. They may not want to create a number yet to not confuse some viewers or there may be a grand scheme of introducing more numbers later in the season or another season that involves the 5 unknown cylon models. They could be maintaining flexibility for themselves in this case. They also know that the people who care the most are us die-hard fans and they can drag us through the mud without giving us more info, but I don't think so with as generous and courteous as Ngarenn is on BW:OC.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 11:10, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::It wouldn't be too hard to introduce a new number though. We've heard plenty of statements like "We Threes think we can't take the risk.", ideal statements to introduce new numbers with. Of course these numbers aren't a big deal, but die-hard fans tend to like to know these details. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::True. Though the more detail the introduce, the more chances they have to get it wrong. Even with the few model numbers we have revealed RDM sometimes has [[Podcast:The_Passage#Act_1|difficulty keeping them straight]], confusing the Eight's (Sharons) with the Three's (D'annas). Either way, we'll be here, documenting. I sometimes wonder if we're (the die-hard detail documenters) aren't his worst nightmares (if we even bothers thinking about us). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:52, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::::I always thought it was a nice nod to buckaroo banzai where all the villains had the same first name. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 22:05, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Question on article ==

*When did [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] go over to the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons']] way of thinking? In this episode she clearly doesn't seem to think of herself as human anymore like she did in "[[Downloaded]]."
:I had assumed that by LDYB, II that the Cylons had gone over to Boomer and Caprica-Six's way of thinking, hence their (C-six and Boomer) sudden rise to power as well as the sudden Cylon cease-fire. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:24, 19 December 2006 (CST)

== Hera ==

I cannot believe that Adm. Adama has apparently no idea what happened to Hera. He was involved in this discussion in [[Downloaded]]. He should knew that Hera and her foster mother moved to [[New Caprica]]. I am very surprised that he became so angry after Roslin told him that she kept the child in her school. --[[User:Akagi|Akagi]] 17:21, 19 December 2006 (CST)
:Adama and Roslin only agreed in "[[Downloaded]]" that Sharon cannot be allowesd raise the baby. Maybe he assumed/was told that Hera was killed by Cottle? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:34, 19 December 2006 (CST)
::That they concluded at the discussion that the child should be killed would fit with this episode events and Baltars look at the end of "Downloaded" when being chided by his internal six. However that option was mentioned onscreen and the entire tone of the conversation at that point makes it seem somewhat unlikely that this would been the final decision. Given that Baltar was never in on the adoption-plot (he apparently didn't know Hera was alive on New Caprica) and we now know Adama didn't know about it either the discussion outcome must have been either to kill the child or to postpone the decision (with Heras apparent death solving the problem). I'm quite willing to buy that Adama believed the child had died a natural death, given that complication in a hybrid between man and machine were to exspected. But I have troubles with Roslin doing it all behind Adamas back (why did she have to do that?) and Adama not making a decision whatever immediately (in Downloaded). [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 17:40, 21 December 2006 (CST)

== Recent Summary Reorganization Problems ==

I'm normally OK about reorganization of a summary, but the recent one handled by SgtPayne creates more work and confusion. Links previously added are missing, conventions once there are missing, and the narrative flow of the summary is extremely confusing. Normally we can break up events by location (events on Galactica, basestars, planets) because they are mostly separate events that don't directly connect, but this episode has both Cylons and Colonial events occurring in response to each other and in "real-time." I am ''this close'' to rolling back the summary and adding edits made afterwards to restore both narrative flow and conventions, but I wanted comments from others first. As an admin I would just roll it back because of all the wikilinking and convention breakage, but it's more than that. Comments? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:36, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:This is one that I might suggest we do "Act" reporting summary. So the events are intertwined. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 09:56, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::I believe that's exactly what the summary contained before that infamous edit: a chronological report of the events in this episode. Since everything and everyone interacts with eachother and is at the same place, that would be a logical choice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:03, 20 December 2006 (CST) (I hate edit conflicts)
:I haven't checked it for style and links, but I agree that the summary should be chronological. Splitting up the locations is fine if they aren't related. But as you said, here they are heavily interwined and dependent on each other --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:57, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:'''Revert.''' It looked better the way it was. The new split makes for a very confusing read. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)

I have reverted the article and restored relevant edits made after that reorganization. One persistant edit that I keep changing involves the "shaft of light" in the Temple as Tyrol is inspecting the symbology in the Temple. That "shaft" is Tyrol's flashlight beam. While that direct light ''might'' do something unexpected as it approaches the central target-shaped symbol, it's not coming from some mystic source within the structure. I've clarified this in the article. Contributors are always free to edit it, but its fairly clear, so analysis should be used to interpret what it might do. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:48, 20 December 2006 (CST)

In light of the recent reversion, I should drop my two cents in regarding the "reorganization". When I first read the article, I felt that it was too "narrative" rather than "summary", which is what the section suggests. The consolidation was an attempt to make the information as concise as possible. I also attempted to keep as many reference links as necessary. In regards to the location split, this was done in line with previous articles, which had definitive locations. My apologies if it confused readers, but it should be said that summaries are just that, and should not be play-by-play accounts of the episode. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 12:18, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:The location split you introduced is good practice when there are multiple storylines that do not interfere with eachother. A nice example of that is "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]". In most episodes this is the case (end s1-begin s2 even had 3 or 4 separate storylines), but in this particular episode the three locations affect eachother so greatly that the split you introduced makes for extemely confusing reading: a bullet point in the basestar story references events told in the Galactica part, and viceverse. (Let's not even start about the Algae Planet part). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:45, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::You bring up a good point. In trying to put it together, there were some areas where I wasn't sure where to put it. On the whole, I was looking to clean it up a bit. Trying to read it line-for-line blurs out after a while... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 14:22, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::I've broken up the summary into acts. It seems to solve both problems. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:24, 20 December 2006 (CST)
::::aye. nice job. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:34, 20 December 2006 (CST)
:::::I concur. It definitely cleans up the look of the page. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:55, 20 December 2006 (CST)

==Missile Tubes==
Where exactly are they and shouldnt that be an article in "Galactica Areas" Snorkel378

== More Nested Analysis ==
*The [[tylium]] planned for the mines could only come from their single Raptor. This supports the [[Substances in the Re-imagined Series#The Tylium Question|high energy yield of the fuel]] that, at the same time, would not sacrifice the Raptor's flight ability.
**It's also possible that the tylium used was fuel stored at the camp to power its generators and/or refuel the Raptors and other ships involved in the harvest.
Please resolve these into either one or two single-level bullets, then re-add to the article. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:56, 21 December 2006 (CST)
:Done. I also updated the nuke count in this section. Admiral Adama orders launch tubes four through ten loaded, which means he's prepared seven nuclear warheads, not six. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:05, 22 December 2006 (CST)
::Nicely done. Thanks! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:51, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Playing with the date? ==

In Kobol's Last Gleaming, they stated the ruins on Kobol were 2000 years old, "around the time of the exodus of the 13 tribes". When they found the beacon at the Lion's Head Nebula, they said it was 3000 years old, and now they're saying the Temple of Five is at least 4000 years old. Each time they give a new date a thousand years earlier, it seems to still coincide with the exodus date of the thirteenth tribe.

Am I the only one noticing this inconsistancy?

: My memory may be off, but I was under the impression that the 13th tribe left Kobol long before the other twelve. So... maybe the 13th tribe left 4k years ago, and the rest left 2k years later. Fanwankery? Spotty memory on my part? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 02:08, 25 December 2006 (CST)

Talk:Felix Gaeta/Archive 1

2006-12-25T08:06:01Z

Drumstick:

Gaeta is BSG's answer to Spock, and I think it's a worthy comparison after his work in [[Scattered]]. Damn fine. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 02:32, 16 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== Role ==

After watching Scattered again recently (my I got my new girlfriend hooked on BSG so I am rewatching all the episodes with her) I noticed that Gaeta refers to himself as the OOD, or Officer On Deck, in the head with Dee. (PS by the way, why were they in the same head? Dee is enlisted, Gaeta is an officer. Moving on.) So here's my question: Is OOD a position or a status? Is the "Tactical Officer" the OOD when he is on duty, or are the two terms simply synonymous? --[[User:Kraetos|Kraetos]] 22:43, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
:I'm fairly certain OOD just means "ranking guy in the room": for example, many a time when Picard and Riker went into Picard's quarters to discuss things, Data "had the bridge". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:04, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
::"The Navy has decided to call in three members of the commanding crew of the USS Greeneville. That would be the commanding officer, Scott Waddle, the X.O. or executive officer and the OOD, the officer on deck, a lieutenant junior grade." "And the executive officer and the officer on deck of the USS Greeneville at the time of the accident have been designated as parties to the inquiry. They will be afforded their due process rights, including the right to be represented by counsel." [[http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0102/18/sm.04.html 1]] I concur with Merv. It sounds like a dynamic title (like NCOIC, non-commisioned officer in charge... depends on who's on duty or maybe more of a "rotating" position in terms of who is "on call" for that particular period).

::Dualla: Not your fault, Lieutenant.Not from where I was standing.
::Gaeta: I was the O.O.D.
::Dualla: It was crazy in there, sir. Can't blame yourself.
::--''[[Scattered]]''
::--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:37, 29 May 2006 (CDT)

:::That was my hunch but I wanted to be positive. Plus, I just realized that the way he says "'''WAS'''" the OOD implies that he is only the OOD when he is on duty, meaning it is a status and not a position. Thanks merv and steelviper. --[[User:Kraetos|Kraetos]] 21:10, 29 May 2006 (CDT) (PS sorry I haven't been around much lately. I was busy with school, but I just graduated so I should be back in the fold now!)

== Title in Baltar Administration ==

He's listed as having been the "Presidential Aide." In "Collaborators," he's referred to specifically as Baltar's Chief of Staff. Would it be worthwhile to make a new title caption at the bottom of the page to reflect this? The only reason I ask is because that's a pretty specific position as opposed to the more general classification of "aide." --[[User:Starscream|Starscream]] 22:59, 21 December 2006 (CST)

:Welcome, Starscream. Your information is the more correct one: the first term was used when we didn't have a precise title. Feel free to update Gaeta's title with this in mind. (Note that we normally add notes towards the bottom of the article so it's easier to keep tabs on new stuff, so I moved your comment down this talk page.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:03, 22 December 2006 (CST)
::Speaking of Gaeta: is there any reason to stick with this photo? His civilian career is long over and since he's back in uniform, he should have an appropiate picture as well. --[[User:Spike|Spike]] 02:20, 22 December 2006 (CST)

== Crazy Drawings ==

Does anyone have a screencap of that crazy drawing Gaeta was working on in Exodus, Part II? I'm thinking that may be important in the next half of the season. Didn't RDM say something to that effect, anyway? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 02:06, 25 December 2006 (CST)

Talk:Saul Tigh/Archive 1

2006-12-03T01:14:17Z

Drumstick: /* Ol' One-Eye */

==Age?==

The profile states that he is in his "50s" and the article says that he is

:"A veteran in his mid-40s to early 50s"

In the commentary for ''[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]'', [[Ronald D. Moore|Ron Moore]] states that [[William Adama|Adama]] is younger than Tigh, and in addition to this, the fact that the [[Cylon War]] took place 40 years ago would obviously mean that he's probably not in his 50s, and definitely not in his mid-40s. Unless someone can argue against it, I'm changing these portions of the article. --[[User:Palpatine|Palpatine]] 22:26, 26 October 2005 (EDT)

:We're probalby going to get around to removing age information from most of the character articles soon. See [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:31, 27 October 2005 (EDT)

::Even after completely discounting Adama's supposed age of 61 as a reference point, it's still reasonable to assume that both of them are in their 60s, due to reasons I already went into. --[[User:Palpatine|Palpatine]] 23:49, 27 October 2005 (EDT)

:::Well. Remember that the war lasted for about 12 years (the Articles of Colonization were signed 52 years ago, which Moore [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/04/index.html#a000025 says] is coincident with the outbreak of hostilities, the war explicitly ended 40 years ago). If we guess that the age to enlist in the colonial military is 18, and Adama enlisted at the start, that would make him at most 70. If Tigh enlisted in the war's last year, that would make him at least 58.

:::Beyond that, I'm not sure what we can say with much certainty. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:26, 28 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: It might be asserted that joinin' age is lower in the Colonies. Is it not 16 in some European nations? I could be wrong. Of course, heck, the lifespans of Colonials could be vastly different from ours. They drive space ships routinely. They have FLT drives. Surely they have some medical technologies that we don't. Maybe they just live longer. This has no basis whatsoever on anything seen on screen, but it's possible, which means that any guesses we make of age based on the actors' appearences is fairly irrelevant. Of course... 70 would be about right for retiring, wouldn't it? But if Tigh is older, why hadn't he retired already? Or was Adama getting an early retirement? In which case, is 70 an ''early'' retirement? That might speak to Colonial life expectancy. Anyway... most of that is just rambling. --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:23, 28 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::Colonial military age is up to debate as Day stated, but we don't have to guess about when Adama joined the military. Moore also said in the same commentary I already referenced that he joined as a pilot in the last days of the war, which we can say with certainty was approximately 40 years ago. Tigh was also specifically said to have been slightly older than, and had seen more combat than Adama. Adding all of this together, we still come to the conclusion that both of them are most likely in their 60s. 10 years is a pretty safe margin of error. --[[User:Palpatine|Palpatine]] 02:09, 29 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::I'll have to double check that. It seems odd for Saul to refer to Bill as "the old man" if he's not at least a few years younger. Another interesting question - in our military, there's usually a provision for forced retirement if you get passed over for promotion for enough years. Does anyone know more about that? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:41, 29 October 2005 (EDT)

My main problem with age (per recent edits) is the lack of consistency between bios. We may be able to get Tigh's down to within a few years, but it's still awfully sloppy, and other pages aren't much better. My edits were based on this thread (now that Peter located it for me). But let consensus rule...calculating ages aren't my specialty. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:27, 20 January 2006 (EST)

==Rating==
According to a deleted scene on the season 2 dvds, Tigh was a petty officer, an assistant gunner's mate, and still a teenager when his ship got boarded. This took place very early in the war and Tigh was still a teenager (more like Cally in age than Tyrol). Also, in the last week of the war, Adama was serving on the Galactica when it was boarded and the Cylons used the same tactics as in Valley of Darkness. Adama told Tigh what happened over a drink and this is how Tigh knew what was happening. In the boarding he was in, he was assigned to guard the ship's magazines. I'll add stuff to the main page later, just wanted to get y'alls opinion on this. It's late.--[[User:Talos|Talos]] 00:53, 27 December 2005 (EST)

:Ricimer and I had an extended conversation about this on [[Talk:Cylon War]] which you may wish to refer to. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:22, 27 December 2005 (EST)
::Thanks, I had missed that. It was just something I noticed while watching my new dvds yesterday. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 11:38, 27 December 2005 (EST)

== Picture? ==

I'm all for changing the pictures in the template to the promotional thing if the one we had was only so-so, but I really liked Tigh's picture, so... Why go and change them systematically? Anyone else find this somewhat rash? --[[User:Day|Day]] 22:27, 28 December 2005 (EST)

:I changed the character bio photo for consistency with many of the character bios elsewhere that started to use their promo pics. This was completely arbitrary, so if the collective says to use another picture, please do so. I think I was also trying to save it from the Island of Misfit Images, I think. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:01, 23 January 2006 (EST)

::One of them will be a misfit either way (unless we find a place for the other). But I appreciate people looking at and adopting images though... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:19, 23 January 2006 (EST)

::: I think consistancy is well and good, but I think consistantly cool photos are better than consistantly "promo" photos. And if we decided to use promo stuff, we'd have to be inconsistant for the more minor characters. --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:17, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::I concur. Consistantly cool is better than consistantly "promo". Although, in the name of consistancy I wonder if it might be a good idea to establish guidelines on the type of shots we're looking for (on the character project maybe?). Personally, I look for a good 8x10 head and shoulders shot that's at least two hundred pixels wide, that doesn't have any other characters significantly in the shot (to avoid confusion). While a promo standard could be established ("use the promo shot if you've got it"), I think the show is capable of producing shots that are more representative of "the character", and cooler. Also, a character shot that illustrates/represents something in the bio or description might have more value than "actor posing for a promo shot". The promo shots can look a look a lot more polished sometimes, but with the advent of the DVD release and some of the high-resolution captures that are taken today, I think they may be obsolete. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:53, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== Images ==

I feel like we may be going a bit over-board on the number of pics on this page. I've a high-speed connection, but I don't want to alienate dial-up users and I don't want to angery any lawyers by skirting too close to "fair use". If I had to get rid of one, I'd say delete the (very dark) pic near the top with the "If the crew doesn't hate the XO..." quote. It's not a very quality shot.

Secondarily, I feel like the shot of Boomer and Tigh under "Tigh in Command" is huge. It also appears on the [[Scattered]] page, I think it should be replaced with the much-less-tall [[:image:Scattered-Tigh.jpg]]. Now, I may be a bit biased towards that one because I uploaded it, but I also think it displays wonderfully Tigh's overwhelmed feeling upon taking command. What do others think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:02, 20 January 2006 (EST)

*I think someone needs to get a screencap in [[Scar]] when Tigh has a really stupid grin on his face while Lt. Thrace walks up to Kat near the end. I might do it when I have a chance, but I don't feel like it right now.--[[User:Deadlygopher|Deadlygopher]] 02:25, 4 February 2006 (EST)

== Occupation and Resistance ==

Since we will probably be adding this section to a lot of characters, is "Occupation and Resistance" OK? --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:13, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
: I find this acceptable. What does everyone else have to say? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 18:21, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
::Sounds good to me. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:31, 6 September 2006 (CDT)

== Call Sign ==

I don't know if it is just being skipped over or because it has never been mentioned, but since he did have a run as a Viper Pilot there seems to be no call sign for it. Does anyone know if there is information available as to his call sign? I question this because he is the only person known as a viper pilot who does not have their call sign name. I would recommend that it be added in the sub-profile "Call Sign: Unknown." Even Admiral Adama has his displayed. Thoughts? --[[User:AJFederation|AJFederation]] 15:55, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
: AJ, in response to your question, Tigh's call sign has never been mentioned. So we haven't added it. As for saying "Call Sign:Unknown" in the data box, we don't fill out forms in the databox with things such as unknown. If it is unknown, then the field is left blank and therefore undefined, so as to not clutter the infobox with "unknown"s for things we don't know about. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:08, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
::Perhpas we should add this to the [[BW:OC]] page? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 05:08, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

== Rank ==

Clearly he is a Colonel while serving aboard the Galactica. I wonder, however, if he should not have been promoted to General at the after the murder of Fisk (Pegasus Commander who took over after Adm Cain). I am a little fuzzy as to the exact ranking structure for the marines. However, if Tigh is Colonel over the marines on the Galactica and there is no Colonel on the Pegasus does it not make the most sense that he would be promoted to General in the same way that Adama was promoted to Admiral? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 00:09, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:The rank structure in Galactica is not the same as modern day militaries. "Colonel" is a rank in the fleet, roughly analogous to Captain in the US Navy. The rank structure in BSG has naval and army/airforce ranks mixed in. See [[Military Ranks (RDM)]] for further info. So, in short, no- Tigh should not have been promoted to "General", since that's not a rank in the BSG universe. "Colonel" is the rank generally held by a ship's Executive Officer. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 05:06, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:: This makes much more sense. My only remaining questions is why was Lee Adama only a major when Adm Adama placed him on the Pegasus? Should not his position be Col for the role he was playing? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 12:44, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:::Lee he wasn't XO in "The Captain's Hand". He was only sent there to look after Garner and the rest of the crew, but he was never referred to as XO. Garner even told him that he isn't really part of the crew, and there is a deleted scene where Tigh asks Adama if he is still thinking about making Lee XO. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:01, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:::Not necessarily. Even today, a vessel's master does not need to hold the rank of "Captain" (though he or she will still be called that). By the same token, an Executive Officer does not ''need'' to be a Colonel. Think of it this way- most XO's in today's navies hold the rank of Commander or equivalent, while the CO is a Captain. However, this is not set in stone. A CO may be a Lieutenant Commander, and their XO a Lieutenant. The reason I said that the XO was generally a Colonel is because we've seen two XO's on screen who both held the rank- that doesn't mean that every XO in the Fleet is a Colonel. Does that make sense? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 12:54, 27 September 2006 (CDT)
:::The XO and Commander could even be the same rank, position keeping the chain of command intact. I've seen aircraft carriers where both the Captain and XO are O-6 Captains. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 15:34, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

:As above. Tigh isn't a Marine just because he has a modern Army/Marine rank. He's in Colonial Fleet like Adama, wears a CF uniform and the next rank for him would be Commander. For NCOs and enlisted the Marines use the same ranks as today. The excact structure of their officer ranks is unknown.--[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:25, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

== Ol' One-Eye ==

I'm wondering if we should make mention of the fact that Tigh's been maimed by the Cylons during his time in captivity so that he only has one eye now. This is, of course, assuming that it's true and that it's not "just something" he told Tyrol and Anders to get them going.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 02:00, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

:Speaking of Tigh's eye, should there be a reference to the Germanic/Norse god Wotan/Woden? I really know very little about mythology, but I read that this god sacrificed his eye so that he could gain wisdom. Fitting? Ironic? Irrelevant? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:14, 2 December 2006 (CST)

== New image ==

Should [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000kp3hg/g248 this] be made the new image, now that Tigh is ol' one-eye? --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 17:07, 30 October 2006 (CST)

Talk:Hero/Archive2

2006-11-20T05:59:26Z

Drumstick: /* Insight into Cylon plan */

== Can We compare Adama to President George....Washington? :) ==
I was reading the quote from Eick, "...Adama begins to believe that on some level he might have been responsible for provoking the Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies." and for some reason I felt that thie reminded me of Gorge Washington long before we was president or even commander-in-chief when, before the 7-Years-War, Washington was involved in a skirmish with the French over Fort Necessity, aka Pittsburgh (yes, we fought a battle for that city) that led to Washington signing a treaty stating, unbeknownst to him because he couldn't speak French and his interpreter sucked, that he committed attrocities against France in the name of the British Empire. This, according to many historians, led to the 7 Years War, known in America as the French and Indian War, that would decimate Northern Germany. I'm sure Washington at some level had to be aware of this error on his part and led him to remorse I imagine. Anyways, the story is different but I was wondering how many parallels there will be, if there will be, in this episode to Washington's conundrum. I wanted to ask a question on the article page but couldn't concise it enough for wiki standards. I may ask on the scifi bboard but input on this would be appreciated before I do. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 19:42, 3 August 2006 (PST)
:That's an interesting analogy, showing a fine attention to historical detail. I think the parallel has minor flaws, though, since Washington's conduct in that matter isn't generally considered morally wrong so much as foolish. [[Wikipedia:Gavrilo Princip|Gavrilo Princip]] might be worth considering as a parallel; he was the immediate but not ultimate cause of a devastating war, and he precipitated the conflict by attacking his fellow countryman, thinking it justified in contrast to the general consensus. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 02:28, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

:: It's unlikely that Adama's actions are quite the transgression that he believes it to be; after all, the [[cylon agent|Cylons had been violating the armistice line]] for about a half a year prior to Adama's, anyway.[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 02:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)

::: I was wondering about the timeline as well. I think Adama says somthing like, the mission was a year before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|attack]], but the cylons had been planning the attack for two years. However, I think there is an error in the timeline. Adama also says he served with Boomer for two years, and I think he implied that it was on Galactica. Gaeta also says that he served with Adama for three years. It is possible that Gaeta was on the Valkyrie for a year, but I think the mission happened about two years before the attack, not just one. I will rewatch the episode, but do you have any ideas? [[User:Jrmurph|Jrmurph]] 12:21, 18 November 2006 (EST)
:::: I think there is an inconsistency in the story. It is not unexplainable, ie Gaeta and Boomer served with Adama on the Valkyrie, but it did seem like nobody other than Adama or Tigh recognized Bulldog so the timeline is a little esquew. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:01, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Another Battlestar? ==
There is a spoiler image showing Adm Adama and Col Tigh in the CIC of the Battlestar Valkerie. I zoomed in on Adama and saw he had his Admiral's pins on. Might this be a sign that they soon will find yet another Battlestar? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:24, 15 November 2006 (CST)
: It's a flashback scene. It may be more of a costuming error. Note that Tigh still has his eye in that promo shot. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 01:39, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:: Right. Two eyed Tigh. Darn. I was hoping they'd find another Battlestar cause I do miss the Pegasus. It was bigger, much cooler and the doors made this cool "beep" when they opened. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:50, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:::You can visit [[Valkyrie]] as well. It's a spoiler until Friday but you can adjust it with some new data later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:36, 15 November 2006 (CST)
::::It's true, I saw the Admiral pips as well, the flashback should have been Commander pips; as the Stealth ship incident occurred three years ago. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 22:56, 17 November 2006 (CST)
: The Valkerie looked to be a Mercury class Battlestar. This would make sense because the galactica class was an older ship and has been all but replaced with the newer bigger and more efficent Mercury class.--[[User:Mike|Mike]] 09:30, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It's definately not a Mercury, the only part really similar is the engine block. If anything, it looked most like a reimagining of the original series battlestar, down to the rectangular opening in the flightpod and the angular head. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::Inside it looks like a Mercury yes. That's a sign of its age. But outside, it's far smaller than a full-sized battlestar. Look at the gun battery on the top. There's only one and almost covers the width of the ship there. See the Valkyrie page for more details (where this discussion should take place), but I think it's basically a smaller battlestar meant for support duties. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:52, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:: Not disagreeing with your main point, but its quite possible that there were far more Battlestar classes than just the "Cylon War Type" and the Mecurcy class, given that the colonies built up a fleet of arround 120 Battlestars over about 50 years, particularly as the Viper apparently went through 5 different itterations over this time, although we are likely never going to see the intervening versions of either type --[[User:Useless|Useless]] 09:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Barry Kennedy as Admiral Corman ==

Hey all, I was just checking on Barry Kennedy's link, and it links to an IMDB page other than his profile page detailing his filmography, and etc. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 23:52, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:That's because some people keep forgeting the "nm" when entering imdb numbers and in that case the link default to title instead of actor --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:53, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The Stealth-Star==
hey i just noticed this but the name of the ship was the stealth star so someone(not me)should create it a page. Best Snorkel378
:Already done [[Stealth Star]]. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:41, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The scene with Baltar, Six and Three in bed==
it says on there that 3 is having a sexual realationship with baltar and six?
Cylons arent lesbos i think they were having a 3some {{unsigned|Snorkel378}}
:You are assuming that the Six we see is Caprica-Six and not Baltar's internal Six. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 20:49, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It would be an odd choice cinematically to have Three wake up from a dream and show us something from inside Baltar's head. {{unsigned|Wldkt1}}
:::Please remembe rto sign your posts on talk pages guys <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:05, 19 November 2006 (CST)
The fact that Baltar and Six are in a 'clutch' position makes it unlikely that it's his internal Six. Three would have noticed Baltar trying to hug thin air in his sleep. Baltar is also in the center of the bed, rather than on one side. In addition, Caprica seems to be aware of (and approves) Three's new interest in Baltar. Regarding the possibility of a relationship between Three and Six: that is only speculation, but just because we haven't seen a lesbian relationship between cylons doesn't mean one isn't possible.[[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 22:18, 19 November 2006 (CST)

==The Black Ops Mission==
Does anyone think that the entire mission was poorly concieved? First, the Colonials jump a Battlestar to very close range of the armistice line, which one would expect to attract attention in and of itself. Second, we see the ''Valkyrie'' track the S-Star after launch and over the line. This either means the Valkyrie tracked it directly on DRADIS, which indicates it's not much of a stealth ship and that the Cylons should be able to detect it as well, or the S-Star has some sort of transponder reporting its position, which is also something the Cylons should detect. Finally, as referenced in the main article, the S-Star maintains radio contact with the ''Valkyrie'' throughout the whole mission, again something the Cylons should be able to detect. Would the writers have really overlooked all this, or are we meant to conclude that the Admriality meant for the mission to have been discovered by the Cylons? --[[User:Cleophus|Cleophus]] 22:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:-The mission is quite similar to the United States' U2 overflights during the late 1950's and 60's. Certain similarities between the depicted incident and the [[:wikipedia:U-2 Crisis of 1960|incident involving Francis Gary Powers]] can be read. It also conjures up several dozen observation flights by aircraft such as specially outfitted C-130's flying perilously close to a boundary line — even going so far as to slip a wingtip across it to "call a bluff". Also, there's the incident involving the Chinese Gai-8 fighter and the US P-3 Orion.
:In the case of our Colonials here, the stealth craft is more than likely equipped with an "odd frequency" (either very low or very high), encrypted transponder that transmits on a specific wavelength, only for IFF purposes. If I recall correctly, F-117 Nighthawks can still use their radios when on ops (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I suspect that this mission was proposed in order to get a glimpse into ''any'' Cylon activity. The stealth craft would be dangled out as a tiny bit of bait – just enough to get a response. Its stealth characteristics would increase its ability to dash back across the Armistice Line untracked and unaffected, and then ''Valkyrie'' would be able to observe and record the arriving Cylons. If questions were raised ("What are you doing here?" ... "Good question, what are ''you'' doing here?" ... "We detected you over the Armistice Line." ... "Who, us? Noooo... We've been on our side this whole time, just trolling about, watching over our miners over there on that moon there. So why are you here again? You don't mind if we take some photos of you while you're here, do you?"), the Colonials would feign ignorance and innocence, but they'd at least have a response... something that the Cylons haven't even projected in thirty-plus years. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

==Folks in White Robes==
Aren't there five white-robed figures in Number Three's vision? It's pretty speculative, but maybe these are meant to represent the five missing Cylon models (maybe they've undergone some kind of transcendence, and are "with God now" or something). Maybe the article should note this (after all, the white-robes show up for the first time just a couple episodes after we first learn that there's definitely something different or mysterious about the five missing models), though I don't know the proper section for it. {{unsigned|Steve}}

:- I noticed that too, but was going to "acquire" the episode and re-watch that part, or watch it again on Monday to see... I _think_ there are five humanoid figures in white robes, kneeling or seated in that semi-circle when Three walks amongst them. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Reference to Raising Arizona? ==

I'm new here, so I didn't want to jump right into the thick of things by adding this to the main page before running it by other people...when Adama and Novacek are sitting down for the first time, Adama asks him something like "How did you escape, Bulldog?". Novacek rambles for a little bit (again, I don't remember exact words) but wraps up with "I felt the facility no longer had anything to offer me...". If I'm not mistaken, this is a reference to Raising Arizona--John Goodman's character says just about the exact same thing after he breaks out of prison. I can't seem to find the line on IMDB or Wikiquote, though... {{unsigned|MikeDanger}}
:Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:As far as I remember "Raising Arizona", the dialogue goes like this: 
:''- You busted outta jail?'' 
:''- No, ma'am. We released ourselves on our own recognizance.'' 
:''- What Evelle is tryin' to say is we felt the institution no longer had anything to offer us.'' -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 08:28, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Insight into Cylon plan ==
If the Cylons know where the Colonials are, or at least know well enough to send Bulldog at them, it's common sense to ask, why don't they just attack? Well, maybe their goal isn't to destroy Galactica et al outright but something more complex. One thing that does seem consistent with their plan is their desire to kill Adama, perhaps because they want to send the fleet into disarray without him at the top. Examples: Leoben telling Roslin that Adama's a Cylon in Flesh and Blood, Boomer shooting Adama repeatedly in Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. II. There may be more examples that I can't think of right now.

People have been crying out "plot hole!" with reckless abandon in light of Bulldog's ability to pinpoint Galactica's position, but if the Cylon plan really is as simple as ''kill all humans,'' as these detractors might claim, then much of the show falls apart. The reality is, we don't really know the Cylon plan, and at this point, there's really no reason to jump to the conclusion that the writers are just too lazy to think of one. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 18:22, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:The Cylons might know full well where the Colonials are but if they jumped in a couple of Basestars then the fleet would zip out of there pretty sharpish and might go somewhere where the Cylons dont know and they will have to find them all over again. IMO, their plan is a long game. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 19:17, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:IMHO, "Hero" is the weakest episode of the series yet. There's just too many logic errors for me to dismiss as part of the "suspension of disbelief" process. For instance, how does Bulldog have the time to learn how to pilot a Cylon raider, when Starbuck took hours to figure out how to operate the thing? Also, how would Bulldog be able to operate the FTL drive -- Kobol's Last Gleaming pretty much made it clear that the FTL drive needed an actual computer, given that the brain had to be ripped out in order for it to be piloted manually. But that's another not so fine mess.
: As for the Cylon plans, well, they're clearly compliated and seem to be changing since the attack. Whether or not this is by design has yet to be detrmined, though I sincerely doubt that the writer's have this thing all planned out a la ''Babylon 5''. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:30, 19 November 2006 (CST)

::Yeah, I know what you're saying. I also doubt it's all planned out B5-style (hasn't Ron basically said something to that effect anyway, like how much they enjoy making it up as they go along?), but that doesn't mean it necessarily can't all add up in the end, and we should assume that they ''do'' know what they are doing until they are proven wrong.

::Also, a lot of people have been talking about how unrealistic it is for Bulldog to have learned how to operate the raider in such a short time. I'm not trying to start an arguement about this, but I don't actually remember them saying that he had only a short time to learn how to use the raider. Are you guys just assuming that he had to learn it all quickly based on the rushed nature of his escape? Is there a reason he couldn't have actually had a few hours to do it? I mean, if they let him escape, then he could have been in the basestar hangar for hours trying to work the controls while they watched (and snickered) from behind the glass. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 23:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Possible Discontinuity ==
According to the episode, Adama and friends served on the Valkyrie a year before the attacks. This implies that Adama was only commander of the Galactica for a year before the miniseries. Yet on the Kara Thrace article, it states that Thrace "resigned from flight school as a instructor and transferred as an operational pilot aboard battlestar Galactica under the command of William Adama, where she served for some '''two years prior to the Cylon attack''' on the Twelve Colonies." They can't both be right.

Also, from the Tyrol article: "He served aboard battlestars from the age of eighteen, including Columbia, Atlantia, and Pegasus (Resistance). He has served under William Adama on Galactica for five years (Litmus)." If he served under Adama for 5 years, why didn't he mention the Valkyrie when he was being intimidated by Tigh in Resistance? This could be simply because Tigh would have known that.--[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 22:16, 19 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Daniel Novacek/Archive 1

2006-11-20T04:24:13Z

Drumstick:

== Standardization ==

This article seems to mix biography and character information, which isn't what we want to do, nor does it note the character bio source. Also, the photo should be of the character, not the actor (that's for the bio page). Anyone care to repair this? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:38, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
:Working on it. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 14:41, 11 October 2006 (CDT)

== Bulldog's name ==

Bulldog's name is Daniel, not Eugene. I changed the content, but can't change the title - could someone do it for me, please? Thx in advance. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 09:45, 11 November 2006 (CST)
: On a related subject, users can also request move permission at [[BW:MOVE]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 00:19, 12 November 2006 (CST)
:: And so I did. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 00:25, 12 November 2006 (CST)
:Damn, now I'm not sure anymore. In "Hero" everybody calls him "Daniel" or "Danny", on SciFi Channel site it's Daniel as well. On the other hand, all promo pictures say "Eugene" and there's also one particular scene in "Hero" with this name - look at the Doc Cottle's monitor when he checks Bulldog's DNA signature... -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 08:07, 19 November 2006 (CST)
::[[Image:Eugene.png]]
::I saw that scene as well. Perhaps Daniel is his middle name, which he prefers to use. But that might just be fanwankery to excuse a production gaffe. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:52, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:::It could just be that they changed their minds about the name during production but forgot to change the monitor. Sorta like the Paul/Saul Tigh thing. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 16:23, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Novacek ==

Novacek is eastern european name and means "New Man", "Beginner" or "Freshman". Slightly different version of this name "Novak" is most common name in here (Czech Republic). If somebody cares...--[[User:Deus|Deus]] 17:23, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:Interesting. That doesn't seem like it fits a veteran and a POW very well. Maybe he's been reborn after being held by the Cylons. He is sort of birthed out of the Raider, in a way. Too much of a stretch? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 22:24, 19 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Hero/Archive2

2006-11-20T04:16:59Z

Drumstick:

== Can We compare Adama to President George....Washington? :) ==
I was reading the quote from Eick, "...Adama begins to believe that on some level he might have been responsible for provoking the Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies." and for some reason I felt that thie reminded me of Gorge Washington long before we was president or even commander-in-chief when, before the 7-Years-War, Washington was involved in a skirmish with the French over Fort Necessity, aka Pittsburgh (yes, we fought a battle for that city) that led to Washington signing a treaty stating, unbeknownst to him because he couldn't speak French and his interpreter sucked, that he committed attrocities against France in the name of the British Empire. This, according to many historians, led to the 7 Years War, known in America as the French and Indian War, that would decimate Northern Germany. I'm sure Washington at some level had to be aware of this error on his part and led him to remorse I imagine. Anyways, the story is different but I was wondering how many parallels there will be, if there will be, in this episode to Washington's conundrum. I wanted to ask a question on the article page but couldn't concise it enough for wiki standards. I may ask on the scifi bboard but input on this would be appreciated before I do. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 19:42, 3 August 2006 (PST)
:That's an interesting analogy, showing a fine attention to historical detail. I think the parallel has minor flaws, though, since Washington's conduct in that matter isn't generally considered morally wrong so much as foolish. [[Wikipedia:Gavrilo Princip|Gavrilo Princip]] might be worth considering as a parallel; he was the immediate but not ultimate cause of a devastating war, and he precipitated the conflict by attacking his fellow countryman, thinking it justified in contrast to the general consensus. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 02:28, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

:: It's unlikely that Adama's actions are quite the transgression that he believes it to be; after all, the [[cylon agent|Cylons had been violating the armistice line]] for about a half a year prior to Adama's, anyway.[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 02:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)

::: I was wondering about the timeline as well. I think Adama says somthing like, the mission was a year before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|attack]], but the cylons had been planning the attack for two years. However, I think there is an error in the timeline. Adama also says he served with Boomer for two years, and I think he implied that it was on Galactica. Gaeta also says that he served with Adama for three years. It is possible that Gaeta was on the Valkyrie for a year, but I think the mission happened about two years before the attack, not just one. I will rewatch the episode, but do you have any ideas? [[User:Jrmurph|Jrmurph]] 12:21, 18 November 2006 (EST)
:::: I think there is an inconsistency in the story. It is not unexplainable, ie Gaeta and Boomer served with Adama on the Valkyrie, but it did seem like nobody other than Adama or Tigh recognized Bulldog so the timeline is a little esquew. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:01, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Another Battlestar? ==
There is a spoiler image showing Adm Adama and Col Tigh in the CIC of the Battlestar Valkerie. I zoomed in on Adama and saw he had his Admiral's pins on. Might this be a sign that they soon will find yet another Battlestar? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:24, 15 November 2006 (CST)
: It's a flashback scene. It may be more of a costuming error. Note that Tigh still has his eye in that promo shot. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 01:39, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:: Right. Two eyed Tigh. Darn. I was hoping they'd find another Battlestar cause I do miss the Pegasus. It was bigger, much cooler and the doors made this cool "beep" when they opened. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:50, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:::You can visit [[Valkyrie]] as well. It's a spoiler until Friday but you can adjust it with some new data later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:36, 15 November 2006 (CST)
::::It's true, I saw the Admiral pips as well, the flashback should have been Commander pips; as the Stealth ship incident occurred three years ago. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 22:56, 17 November 2006 (CST)
: The Valkerie looked to be a Mercury class Battlestar. This would make sense because the galactica class was an older ship and has been all but replaced with the newer bigger and more efficent Mercury class.--[[User:Mike|Mike]] 09:30, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It's definately not a Mercury, the only part really similar is the engine block. If anything, it looked most like a reimagining of the original series battlestar, down to the rectangular opening in the flightpod and the angular head. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::Inside it looks like a Mercury yes. That's a sign of its age. But outside, it's far smaller than a full-sized battlestar. Look at the gun battery on the top. There's only one and almost covers the width of the ship there. See the Valkyrie page for more details (where this discussion should take place), but I think it's basically a smaller battlestar meant for support duties. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:52, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:: Not disagreeing with your main point, but its quite possible that there were far more Battlestar classes than just the "Cylon War Type" and the Mecurcy class, given that the colonies built up a fleet of arround 120 Battlestars over about 50 years, particularly as the Viper apparently went through 5 different itterations over this time, although we are likely never going to see the intervening versions of either type --[[User:Useless|Useless]] 09:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Barry Kennedy as Admiral Corman ==

Hey all, I was just checking on Barry Kennedy's link, and it links to an IMDB page other than his profile page detailing his filmography, and etc. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 23:52, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:That's because some people keep forgeting the "nm" when entering imdb numbers and in that case the link default to title instead of actor --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:53, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The Stealth-Star==
hey i just noticed this but the name of the ship was the stealth star so someone(not me)should create it a page. Best Snorkel378
:Already done [[Stealth Star]]. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:41, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The scene with Baltar, Six and Three in bed==
it says on there that 3 is having a sexual realationship with baltar and six?
Cylons arent lesbos i think they were having a 3some {{unsigned|Snorkel378}}
:You are assuming that the Six we see is Caprica-Six and not Baltar's internal Six. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 20:49, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It would be an odd choice cinematically to have Three wake up from a dream and show us something from inside Baltar's head. {{unsigned|Wldkt1}}
:::Please remembe rto sign your posts on talk pages guys <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:05, 19 November 2006 (CST)

==The Black Ops Mission==
Does anyone think that the entire mission was poorly concieved? First, the Colonials jump a Battlestar to very close range of the armistice line, which one would expect to attract attention in and of itself. Second, we see the ''Valkyrie'' track the S-Star after launch and over the line. This either means the Valkyrie tracked it directly on DRADIS, which indicates it's not much of a stealth ship and that the Cylons should be able to detect it as well, or the S-Star has some sort of transponder reporting its position, which is also something the Cylons should detect. Finally, as referenced in the main article, the S-Star maintains radio contact with the ''Valkyrie'' throughout the whole mission, again something the Cylons should be able to detect. Would the writers have really overlooked all this, or are we meant to conclude that the Admriality meant for the mission to have been discovered by the Cylons? --[[User:Cleophus|Cleophus]] 22:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:-The mission is quite similar to the United States' U2 overflights during the late 1950's and 60's. Certain similarities between the depicted incident and the [[:wikipedia:U-2 Crisis of 1960|incident involving Francis Gary Powers]] can be read. It also conjures up several dozen observation flights by aircraft such as specially outfitted C-130's flying perilously close to a boundary line — even going so far as to slip a wingtip across it to "call a bluff". Also, there's the incident involving the Chinese Gai-8 fighter and the US P-3 Orion.
:In the case of our Colonials here, the stealth craft is more than likely equipped with an "odd frequency" (either very low or very high), encrypted transponder that transmits on a specific wavelength, only for IFF purposes. If I recall correctly, F-117 Nighthawks can still use their radios when on ops (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I suspect that this mission was proposed in order to get a glimpse into ''any'' Cylon activity. The stealth craft would be dangled out as a tiny bit of bait – just enough to get a response. Its stealth characteristics would increase its ability to dash back across the Armistice Line untracked and unaffected, and then ''Valkyrie'' would be able to observe and record the arriving Cylons. If questions were raised ("What are you doing here?" ... "Good question, what are ''you'' doing here?" ... "We detected you over the Armistice Line." ... "Who, us? Noooo... We've been on our side this whole time, just trolling about, watching over our miners over there on that moon there. So why are you here again? You don't mind if we take some photos of you while you're here, do you?"), the Colonials would feign ignorance and innocence, but they'd at least have a response... something that the Cylons haven't even projected in thirty-plus years. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

==Folks in White Robes==
Aren't there five white-robed figures in Number Three's vision? It's pretty speculative, but maybe these are meant to represent the five missing Cylon models (maybe they've undergone some kind of transcendence, and are "with God now" or something). Maybe the article should note this (after all, the white-robes show up for the first time just a couple episodes after we first learn that there's definitely something different or mysterious about the five missing models), though I don't know the proper section for it. {{unsigned|Steve}}

:- I noticed that too, but was going to "acquire" the episode and re-watch that part, or watch it again on Monday to see... I _think_ there are five humanoid figures in white robes, kneeling or seated in that semi-circle when Three walks amongst them. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Reference to Raising Arizona? ==

I'm new here, so I didn't want to jump right into the thick of things by adding this to the main page before running it by other people...when Adama and Novacek are sitting down for the first time, Adama asks him something like "How did you escape, Bulldog?". Novacek rambles for a little bit (again, I don't remember exact words) but wraps up with "I felt the facility no longer had anything to offer me...". If I'm not mistaken, this is a reference to Raising Arizona--John Goodman's character says just about the exact same thing after he breaks out of prison. I can't seem to find the line on IMDB or Wikiquote, though... {{unsigned|MikeDanger}}
:Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:As far as I remember "Raising Arizona", the dialogue goes like this: 
:''- You busted outta jail?'' 
:''- No, ma'am. We released ourselves on our own recognizance.'' 
:''- What Evelle is tryin' to say is we felt the institution no longer had anything to offer us.'' -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 08:28, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Insight into Cylon plan ==
If the Cylons know where the Colonials are, or at least know well enough to send Bulldog at them, it's common sense to ask, why don't they just attack? Well, maybe their goal isn't to destroy Galactica et al outright but something more complex. One thing that does seem consistent with their plan is their desire to kill Adama, perhaps because they want to send the fleet into disarray without him at the top. Examples: Leoben telling Roslin that Adama's a Cylon in Flesh and Blood, Boomer shooting Adama repeatedly in Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. II. There may be more examples that I can't think of right now.

People have been crying out "plot hole!" with reckless abandon in light of Bulldog's ability to pinpoint Galactica's position, but if the Cylon plan really is as simple as ''kill all humans,'' as these detractors might claim, then much of the show falls apart. The reality is, we don't really know the Cylon plan, and at this point, there's really no reason to jump to the conclusion that the writers are just too lazy to think of one. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 18:22, 19 November 2006 (CST)
:The Cylons might know full well where the Colonials are but if they jumped in a couple of Basestars then the fleet would zip out of there pretty sharpish and might go somewhere where the Cylons dont know and they will have to find them all over again. IMO, their plan is a long game. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 19:17, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Possible Discontinuity ==
According to the episode, Adama and friends served on the Valkyrie a year before the attacks. This implies that Adama was only commander of the Galactica for a year before the miniseries. Yet on the Kara Thrace article, it states that Thrace "resigned from flight school as a instructor and transferred as an operational pilot aboard battlestar Galactica under the command of William Adama, where she served for some '''two years prior to the Cylon attack''' on the Twelve Colonies." They can't both be right.

Also, from the Tyrol article: "He served aboard battlestars from the age of eighteen, including Columbia, Atlantia, and Pegasus (Resistance). He has served under William Adama on Galactica for five years (Litmus)." If he served under Adama for 5 years, why didn't he mention the Valkyrie when he was being intimidated by Tigh in Resistance? This could be simply because Tigh would have known that.--[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 22:16, 19 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Hero/Archive2

2006-11-20T00:22:34Z

Drumstick:

== Can We compare Adama to President George....Washington? :) ==
I was reading the quote from Eick, "...Adama begins to believe that on some level he might have been responsible for provoking the Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies." and for some reason I felt that thie reminded me of Gorge Washington long before we was president or even commander-in-chief when, before the 7-Years-War, Washington was involved in a skirmish with the French over Fort Necessity, aka Pittsburgh (yes, we fought a battle for that city) that led to Washington signing a treaty stating, unbeknownst to him because he couldn't speak French and his interpreter sucked, that he committed attrocities against France in the name of the British Empire. This, according to many historians, led to the 7 Years War, known in America as the French and Indian War, that would decimate Northern Germany. I'm sure Washington at some level had to be aware of this error on his part and led him to remorse I imagine. Anyways, the story is different but I was wondering how many parallels there will be, if there will be, in this episode to Washington's conundrum. I wanted to ask a question on the article page but couldn't concise it enough for wiki standards. I may ask on the scifi bboard but input on this would be appreciated before I do. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 19:42, 3 August 2006 (PST)
:That's an interesting analogy, showing a fine attention to historical detail. I think the parallel has minor flaws, though, since Washington's conduct in that matter isn't generally considered morally wrong so much as foolish. [[Wikipedia:Gavrilo Princip|Gavrilo Princip]] might be worth considering as a parallel; he was the immediate but not ultimate cause of a devastating war, and he precipitated the conflict by attacking his fellow countryman, thinking it justified in contrast to the general consensus. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 02:28, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

:: It's unlikely that Adama's actions are quite the transgression that he believes it to be; after all, the [[cylon agent|Cylons had been violating the armistice line]] for about a half a year prior to Adama's, anyway.[[User:TaKometer|TaKometer]] 02:09, 18 November 2006 (CST)

::: I was wondering about the timeline as well. I think Adama says somthing like, the mission was a year before the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|attack]], but the cylons had been planning the attack for two years. However, I think there is an error in the timeline. Adama also says he served with Boomer for two years, and I think he implied that it was on Galactica. Gaeta also says that he served with Adama for three years. It is possible that Gaeta was on the Valkyrie for a year, but I think the mission happened about two years before the attack, not just one. I will rewatch the episode, but do you have any ideas? [[User:Jrmurph|Jrmurph]] 12:21, 18 November 2006 (EST)
:::: I think there is an inconsistency in the story. It is not unexplainable, ie Gaeta and Boomer served with Adama on the Valkyrie, but it did seem like nobody other than Adama or Tigh recognized Bulldog so the timeline is a little esquew. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:01, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Another Battlestar? ==
There is a spoiler image showing Adm Adama and Col Tigh in the CIC of the Battlestar Valkerie. I zoomed in on Adama and saw he had his Admiral's pins on. Might this be a sign that they soon will find yet another Battlestar? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:24, 15 November 2006 (CST)
: It's a flashback scene. It may be more of a costuming error. Note that Tigh still has his eye in that promo shot. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 01:39, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:: Right. Two eyed Tigh. Darn. I was hoping they'd find another Battlestar cause I do miss the Pegasus. It was bigger, much cooler and the doors made this cool "beep" when they opened. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:50, 15 November 2006 (CST)
:::You can visit [[Valkyrie]] as well. It's a spoiler until Friday but you can adjust it with some new data later. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:36, 15 November 2006 (CST)
::::It's true, I saw the Admiral pips as well, the flashback should have been Commander pips; as the Stealth ship incident occurred three years ago. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 22:56, 17 November 2006 (CST)
: The Valkerie looked to be a Mercury class Battlestar. This would make sense because the galactica class was an older ship and has been all but replaced with the newer bigger and more efficent Mercury class.--[[User:Mike|Mike]] 09:30, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It's definately not a Mercury, the only part really similar is the engine block. If anything, it looked most like a reimagining of the original series battlestar, down to the rectangular opening in the flightpod and the angular head. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:47, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::Inside it looks like a Mercury yes. That's a sign of its age. But outside, it's far smaller than a full-sized battlestar. Look at the gun battery on the top. There's only one and almost covers the width of the ship there. See the Valkyrie page for more details (where this discussion should take place), but I think it's basically a smaller battlestar meant for support duties. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:52, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:: Not disagreeing with your main point, but its quite possible that there were far more Battlestar classes than just the "Cylon War Type" and the Mecurcy class, given that the colonies built up a fleet of arround 120 Battlestars over about 50 years, particularly as the Viper apparently went through 5 different itterations over this time, although we are likely never going to see the intervening versions of either type --[[User:Useless|Useless]] 09:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

== Barry Kennedy as Admiral Corman ==

Hey all, I was just checking on Barry Kennedy's link, and it links to an IMDB page other than his profile page detailing his filmography, and etc. [[User:SimsHsia|SimsHsia]] 23:52, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:That's because some people keep forgeting the "nm" when entering imdb numbers and in that case the link default to title instead of actor --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:53, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The Stealth-Star==
hey i just noticed this but the name of the ship was the stealth star so someone(not me)should create it a page. Best Snorkel378
:Already done [[Stealth Star]]. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:41, 18 November 2006 (CST)

==The scene with Baltar, Six and Three in bed==
it says on there that 3 is having a sexual realationship with baltar and six?
Cylons arent lesbos i think they were having a 3some {{unsigned|Snorkel378}}
:You are assuming that the Six we see is Caprica-Six and not Baltar's internal Six. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 20:49, 18 November 2006 (CST)
::It would be an odd choice cinematically to have Three wake up from a dream and show us something from inside Baltar's head. {{unsigned|Wldkt1}}
:::Please remembe rto sign your posts on talk pages guys <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:05, 19 November 2006 (CST)

==The Black Ops Mission==
Does anyone think that the entire mission was poorly concieved? First, the Colonials jump a Battlestar to very close range of the armistice line, which one would expect to attract attention in and of itself. Second, we see the ''Valkyrie'' track the S-Star after launch and over the line. This either means the Valkyrie tracked it directly on DRADIS, which indicates it's not much of a stealth ship and that the Cylons should be able to detect it as well, or the S-Star has some sort of transponder reporting its position, which is also something the Cylons should detect. Finally, as referenced in the main article, the S-Star maintains radio contact with the ''Valkyrie'' throughout the whole mission, again something the Cylons should be able to detect. Would the writers have really overlooked all this, or are we meant to conclude that the Admriality meant for the mission to have been discovered by the Cylons? --[[User:Cleophus|Cleophus]] 22:55, 18 November 2006 (CST)

:-The mission is quite similar to the United States' U2 overflights during the late 1950's and 60's. Certain similarities between the depicted incident and the [[:wikipedia:U-2 Crisis of 1960|incident involving Francis Gary Powers]] can be read. It also conjures up several dozen observation flights by aircraft such as specially outfitted C-130's flying perilously close to a boundary line — even going so far as to slip a wingtip across it to "call a bluff". Also, there's the incident involving the Chinese Gai-8 fighter and the US P-3 Orion.
:In the case of our Colonials here, the stealth craft is more than likely equipped with an "odd frequency" (either very low or very high), encrypted transponder that transmits on a specific wavelength, only for IFF purposes. If I recall correctly, F-117 Nighthawks can still use their radios when on ops (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I suspect that this mission was proposed in order to get a glimpse into ''any'' Cylon activity. The stealth craft would be dangled out as a tiny bit of bait – just enough to get a response. Its stealth characteristics would increase its ability to dash back across the Armistice Line untracked and unaffected, and then ''Valkyrie'' would be able to observe and record the arriving Cylons. If questions were raised ("What are you doing here?" ... "Good question, what are ''you'' doing here?" ... "We detected you over the Armistice Line." ... "Who, us? Noooo... We've been on our side this whole time, just trolling about, watching over our miners over there on that moon there. So why are you here again? You don't mind if we take some photos of you while you're here, do you?"), the Colonials would feign ignorance and innocence, but they'd at least have a response... something that the Cylons haven't even projected in thirty-plus years. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

==Folks in White Robes==
Aren't there five white-robed figures in Number Three's vision? It's pretty speculative, but maybe these are meant to represent the five missing Cylon models (maybe they've undergone some kind of transcendence, and are "with God now" or something). Maybe the article should note this (after all, the white-robes show up for the first time just a couple episodes after we first learn that there's definitely something different or mysterious about the five missing models), though I don't know the proper section for it. {{unsigned|Steve}}

:- I noticed that too, but was going to "acquire" the episode and re-watch that part, or watch it again on Monday to see... I _think_ there are five humanoid figures in white robes, kneeling or seated in that semi-circle when Three walks amongst them. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:59, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Reference to Raising Arizona? ==

I'm new here, so I didn't want to jump right into the thick of things by adding this to the main page before running it by other people...when Adama and Novacek are sitting down for the first time, Adama asks him something like "How did you escape, Bulldog?". Novacek rambles for a little bit (again, I don't remember exact words) but wraps up with "I felt the facility no longer had anything to offer me...". If I'm not mistaken, this is a reference to Raising Arizona--John Goodman's character says just about the exact same thing after he breaks out of prison. I can't seem to find the line on IMDB or Wikiquote, though... {{unsigned|MikeDanger}}
:Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:As far as I remember "Raising Arizona", the dialogue goes like this: 
:''- You busted outta jail?'' 
:''- No, ma'am. We released ourselves on our own recognizance.'' 
:''- What Evelle is tryin' to say is we felt the institution no longer had anything to offer us.'' -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 08:28, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Insight into Cylon plan ==
If the Cylons know where the Colonials are, or at least know well enough to send Bulldog at them, it's common sense to ask, why don't they just attack? Well, maybe their goal isn't to destroy Galactica et al outright but something more complex. One thing that does seem consistent with their plan is their desire to kill Adama, perhaps because they want to send the fleet into disarray without him at the top. Examples: Leoben telling Roslin that Adama's a Cylon in Flesh and Blood, Boomer shooting Adama repeatedly in Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. II. There may be more examples that I can't think of right now.

People have been crying out "plot hole!" with reckless abandon in light of Bulldog's ability to pinpoint Galactica's position, but if the Cylon plan really is as simple as ''kill all humans,'' as these detractors might claim, then much of the show falls apart. The reality is, we don't really know the Cylon plan, and at this point, there's really no reason to jump to the conclusion that the writers are just too lazy to think of one. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 18:22, 19 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2006-02-25T21:59:01Z

Drumstick: /* Billy's Entry */

== Please aid in concision ==

This article combines the speculations of the Humano-Cylon and Gaius Baltar articles. As such, it is very wordy. I added the conditional summaries to avoid having to say "Ron Moore said this-and-that" in each item. Still, the article is really all over the place. We need to pare each suspect to the basics--bullets if necessary. Please base your information only on what has been mentioned or clearly stated. Lack of evidence ("Nothing says that the Cylons couldn't have been introduced 5 years before the attacks") is invalid to the information actually stated for both Valerii's and Six character--their history is unclear 2 years prior. Concision should clear up the unnecessary editorial here and bring it to basics. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Agreed, it should have been edited down for the sake of concision, as other points are made elsewhere. Thank you for editing it down to size. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

=="At least" 2 years==

No Cylon ever said out loud, "we've been infiltrating your society for two years"; we saw that Number Six was going out with baltar for 2 years, and then that Galactica-Boomer had been on Galactica for 2 years, then made the connection. However, although ''wide-scale'' infiltration apparently occured 2 years ago, we have no way of knowing if this is when infiltration of any kind actually began. Case in point; Ellen Tigh. A (deleted) scene said that she was married to Saul Tigh for 7 years. Now, I think it would be highly unlikely that the Cylons developed the humanoid Cylons 10 years after the Cylon War (30 years ago) or something, but the possibility that they were using them for the past 5-10 years seems within the realm of possibility to me. Again, there was never a definative "rule". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:48, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I tend to agree. Although circumstantial evidence points to a widespread infiltration campaign launching two years before the miniseries, we have no idea when the Cylons actually developed the ability to construct humanoid models. This, however, should be noted once at the head of the article, not on a per-candidate basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:10, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::The circumstantial evidence is all we can go on to keep from making stuff up out of the range of given information. It was Baltar, talking to Six, that gave the length of time, but I can't recall Valerii's comment or reference to it. Yes, we do need to avoid repetition; there's a lot of it. I don't believe this article is intending to address or imply that the humanoid Cylons were created 2 years prior, but begin to appear 2 years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:49, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::But that's really the point (not "when were they made"); when were they ''first'' used to infiltrate the Colonies? We really don't know; we only know that two units were inside for 2 years. BTW, it's in "The Farm" when Adama states that Boomer was on the ship for almost 2 years. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

== Billy's Entry ==
There is nothing of note in Billy's entry that could not be also said about Dualla, Tyrol, Cally, Racetrack, Kat, and other minor characters. It's unlikely that we can vouch for all character histories. It's their signficant, influential moments in an episode that appear questionable in intent, or their associations that are important. If there isn't a significant point about Billy's history that puts him at the same level of suspicion as Jammer or Bell, I move to strike this. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:06, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:Well, A) It's always the guy you least suspect, though that's more "paranoia" B) no one knows him, I mean even deckahands like Cally or Jammer were on the ship for at least a period of a few months, but *no one* other than Roslin met him before he first shows up on screen. And it would make sense to infiltrate a position with access to a cabinet member. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:37, 1 February 2006 (EST)
::Not disagreeing, but note that she was an extremely low-ranking cabinet member, and I doubt that the Cylons could have forseen either her "access" to Adar, or her assumption of the presidency after the attack. Besides, they already had Doral following her to Galactica's decommissioning ceremony. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Given that Billy is now dead, his plausibility as a Cylon is completely moot ''unless'' he is found resurrected in a future episode (non-flashback). Only a Cylon agent comes back, which would validate the claim. Also, given that there hasn't been any further points that significantly differentiate his character's suspicion criteria over any other lesser character, I'd rather strike this. Farago's point that Roslin was accompanied by Doral indicates that ''Galactica'' was monitored anyway. There's no real logic leap that can give the Keikeya suspicion enough grounding in comparison to the others. Technically, Roslin herself could be a Cylon with the same logic in that we don't know for sure where she's been in the last two years beyond what's said in the miniseries and "Ephiphanies." --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:58, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:If Billy was a cylon, what would his purpose have been? I can't see TPTB deciding to reveal him as a cylon in a future episode because it wouldn't make any sense! He would have had to be a sleeper agent, but he didn't do anything! For almost 9 months! When you're asleep that long, you're practically dead. It should be struck (striked?) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 16:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)

== Baltar's Entry ==

Can we rule out Baltar as a Cylon now that we've seen "Downloaded"? The whole thing with Six seeing BALTAR in her head seem to imply a certain duality... Six's Baltar is trying to push the human agenda, and Baltar's Six is trying to push the Cylon agenda.--[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:54, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, please. If Baltar were a Cylon, they couldn't have ''not'' mentioned it in "Downloaded". The whole line of inquiriy is ridiculous. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Plus, numerous Cylon characters referred to him as human. I'm glad. I think it's a lot less interesting if he were a Cylon. I feel a bit reluctant to remove the whole thing though... I'll just add some information against it from Downloaded, and if anyone else feels it needs to go, they're welcome to delete it. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 00:02, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::My inclination is to give the "Baltar is a Cylon" boosters a couple days to defend the material here before we chop it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::By all means, I feel that we should give them a few days to defend themselves. However, although Six hallucinates Baltar...it is clearly implied that no other Cylons knew about him, and Number Three even says that they both fell in love with humans.
My feelings on the matter, summed up into an easy to read list, are:
:*Baltar-Six is definately NOT the same person as the Number Six we see at the beginning of the Miniseries: Caprica-Six is someone else entirely. Did she load *a separate, backup copy* of herself into Baltar? Still a possibility.
:*Baltar-Six is not a hallucination, this has been proven in "Home, Part II", but no chip is visible on scans: I believe that she is an "Organic Chip", undetectable to scans, and not an "angel" as she claims.
:*Caprica-Six's hallucinated visions of Baltar on the other hand, are simply that: hallucinations, brought on by the apparent stress of killing the man she loved
:*As an inhuman robot not used to emotions or love, this had a profound affect on her; even disregarding Baltar, she is also feeling profound guilt over killing the human race, because after loving Baltar, she's come to think that a loving God would never want what the Cylons did.
:So he's not a Cylon; it's just a cool way of visually showing us that Number Six and the Cylons are so near-human that when placed under moral strain or something, they can hallucinate just like people can. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:50, 25 February 2006 (EST)

*I will go out on a limb, and propose that this is in fact conclusive proof that Baltar is not a Cylon, because the Cylons amongst themselves say that he is a human. I had been waiting until (my pet theory) Baltar impregnants Gina, but now I feel that this is grounds, '''Spencerian''', to remind you of our [[Talk:Gaius Baltar#A Friendly Wager, Spencerian|Gentlemanly wager]], that if Baltar were proved not to be a Cylon, you would support me in an Administrator election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:53, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::Not only is the notion staking an RFA vote on a petty wager rather more than a little disquieting, I'm not even sure Spence ever agreed to those terms. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Talk:Downloaded/Archive 1

2006-02-25T06:05:54Z

Drumstick:

If this episode has been dropped so Resurrection can be split into two, then aren't we still missing an episode? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 00:06, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:Yes. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:14, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:: I've heard new rumors that this ISN'T the Cylon POV episode; that this episode covers the fate of Galactica-Sharon, but the "totally" Cylon POV episode was another one entirely. There may be hope yet. Besides, I think at the least Lawless has actually filmed scenes for it; I don't know if the one that was scrapped ever went past script phase.

However, new developments: I got a link to a scan of the February edition of Scifi Magazine, in which they answer questions from the official messageboard: http://pics.livejournal.com/reedfem/pic/0008a1hf ---->I can't tell if Grace Park is being SARCASTIC or if she was serious. (BTW, like 5 of these questions are from me, notably the Blade Runner one, the Geena Davis one, and the "new evil Sharon?" one). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:51, 5 December 2005 (EST)
::For those interested, the full set of scans can be found here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/reedfem/158883.html?page=1 --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:34, 5 December 2005 (EST)

Hmm, I'm pretty sure I saw a copy of Simon in the cafe on Caprica. I'm removing the "possibly archival footage" thing. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:24, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:They're saying it was a body double on TWOP. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:27, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::It's possible it might have been a different actor. What does TWOP stand for? --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:35, 24 February 2006 (EST)

This episode was very good. I have one problem with it: Not Enough Leoben Conoy. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:37, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yeah, I was suprised we didn't see him on Caprica. I mean, they even had Simon (or at least who I believe is Simon).

:Someone claimed Leoben was on Caprica: where? I did not see him, though I will rewatch it. I will delete this info until it can be confirmed. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:58, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::You're totally right... he wasn't there. Not sure why, but he wasn't. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 01:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Talk:Science in the Re-imagined Series/Archive 1

2006-02-02T07:19:53Z

Drumstick:

== Time for a Technobabble Exam ==

This article came out of my head as watched the mini-series for the umpteenth time after wondering if the writers really took the time to know what numbers they're having the characters say and if they mean anything real. I'm neither a math expert or physics expert, so do check my math. I've started on mini-series datum, and as others rewatch season 1 and 2, we'll be able to add more on distances, speeds, weapons, and the like. Some of this information may already be on other pages, but aren't expanded or elaborated.

Perhaps someone knows of what earthly materials ''Galactica'' would have to be made of to withstand the compressive energies of a kiloton nuclear warhead without major structural deformity (Mini-Series). This is meant to be a page of speculation based on points from the series, so have fun with it. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:35, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:I'm a little confused. Based on your analysis we know Colonial One's distance from Caprica, not Galactica's, so how can we measure Colonial One's speed?

:Galactica is at point A. Caprica is at point C. Colonial One is at point B between them, 30 light-minutes from point C and 5.5 ship-hours from point A. I don't see how we can solve for Colonial One's velocity with this data.

:Roslin's conversation with Jack (which I believed survived its way to the final cut) was in real-time, however, so we can probably assume that they'd made it all the way back to Caprica by the time the nukes went off.

:Oh, one last thing - if BSG follows real-world physics, the fastest way to get somewhere in space is to accelerate at full capacity until you're halfway to your destination, then flip around and decelerate the rest of the distance. Since there's no air resistance, there isn't any "top speed" to contend with - a ship's speed would only be limited by its fuel stores and maximum acceleration. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 8 December 2005 (EST)

::I did fudge Colonal One's location, assuming it and Caprica are almost at the same location to work out the travel times and distance. Even if Colonial One is as much as 30 light-minutes out, I may be able to reverse-calculate that amount of distance and recompute the time. (Damn. Now I sound like a character from Star Trek. Where's my heisenberg compensator!?) Yes, Jack's conversation was in the final cut, although there was a draft scene where we see him on Caprica in the hellish bombardment result, which wasn't in the aired show. The ship was 3 hours from Caprica when news of the attacks reached them, and I would hope that the ship stopped their approach at that point or close to it. Since wireless is speed-of-light communications. either the writers screwed up since 3 hours from Caprica at my calculated cruise speed would mean that a wireless message exchange would be over 120 million miles, and that would take it about 12 minutes between sends.

::Or, Colonial One was close to Caprica, but that would also mean that it was fodder--we saw Valerii's Raptor near Caprica and descending, and the space around the planet was filled with basestars and a dead battlestar. In Star Trek, the writers explain off relativistic communications with "subspace", but I am ''not'' going there. It's more likely that the ship was close enough for wireless...maybe about twice the distance from our Earth to our moon, or about 500,000 miles. That would make for a 4 second delay, not so much of a comm delay (and can be written off when the viewer see the conversation), but far enough away to keep the Cylon armada there from noticing right off on DRADIS (though obviously a fighter or two did). After looking at my DVD, that idea is most probable beyond saying the writers screwed up.

::Yep, all ships, including Vipers, have to brake once inertia kicks in. We see lots of instances in the mini-series of what happens when the rules of inertia are adhered--or ignored. Something else to add and incorporate. And, then, there's that ''artificial gravity'' thing that needs explainin'. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:07, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::Just reviewed that scene, and your calculations seem sound. Billy was stating the time delay between Galactica and Caprica, not Colonial One's current location, and the flight was obviously just getting underway. Furthermore, the delay between the nuclear attacks and Adama's report ("preliminary reports indicate a thermonuclear device in the fifty megaton range was detonated over caprica city thirty minutes ago") makes it clear that it's a 30-minute delay each way, not round trip.
:::One more thing, though. Galactica is clearly already en route to Caprica - Adama indicates that they're on their way home when he talks to Tigh, and it can be seen in space with its sublight engines active. This complicates their rendezvous substantially, since Colonial One would have to reverse course and match speed with Galactica in order to avoid simply crossing paths. On the other hand, it's apparently not accelerating there as fast as Colonial One is capable of, or else that ship's return trip would be impossible. It may be fair to consider it a stationary object. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:35, 8 December 2005 (EST)

:::: This is a neat page. I just found it. Anyway, I think, if I were the interplanetary equivalent of the FAA, I'd determine that civillian ships should obey certain speedlimits (excluding emergency craft, I guess, with siren-equivalents going), and military craft to certain, slightly higher, speed limits (except in times of war). So, this would mean that people wouldn't generally be accellerating half way to a destination and decellerating the other half.

:::: Also, since ''Galactica'''s crew knows she'll be rendesvousing with various civillian craft, she's probably doing some zig-zagging to meet up with them, so not travelling in a straight line. Keep in mind, she's a destination for an event. Getting to Caprica isn't probably very high on the priority list until after the ceremony.

:::: I wish the writer's had done the math. It looks, to me, like they didn't, really. I mean--I can understand an aversion to getting into the nitty-gritty details, but important things like a kind of average acceleration speed seem handy to have.

:::: Lastly, a few loose ends I have. Do you guys think wireless is basically just radio and, thus, works at the speed of light? Have you noticed that smaller craft with huge aft-oriented engines have little problem doing quick-decelleration maneuvers without flipping around (eg. the Marine boarding Raptors in ''[[Bastille Day]]'')? Does anyone have any thoughts about the feasability of what we've seen the Vipers do as far as all the flipping and turning and such? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:51, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::All things considered, I think they did pretty good in some parts of math. Based on the early Mini-Series script floating around (where it specifically indicates the term wireless and that it was their term for radio), and given that its use is identical to what is used in the Mini-Series, yes, wireless is radio. On Galactica's movement: for purposes of simplicity, Gods, yes, please keep her a stationary object for the equations. From a travel standpoint, it would be more sensible to keep Galactica in one place since a civilian transport wouldn't want to make changes in course at FTL speed 0.11. She is likely moving a little, but nowhere near Colonial Heavy 798's speeds, and in no rush to get to Caprica. On small ships: I think the Viper physics model is great. Sometimes the Raptor movement seems a bit too Star Wars, I agree, but I'll have to pay more attention to that to make a better assessment. I think I'm going to tackle that ''artificial gravity'' matter today--it's been stewing in my head. And has anyone noticed that Galactica's sublight engines are ALWAYS on, even if she appears stationary? I think its a beautiful effect, but I get distracted by it when I watch the fight at the Anchorage. Here's the battlestar, now dorsal up and flipped, but its' engines still look like they're burning, and hard. Don't know what's up with that. Oh, and I guess Vipers can manage high sublight speeds like a civilian transport, since Colonial Heavy was escorted back to Caprica and the last Mark VII squadron was en route back as well. There's the matter of keeping humans from turning to goo at these speeds, but I'll work on it until my head explodes (shouldn't be too long). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:54, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::: People not gooifying is probably tied into artificial gravity. However, I imagine that smaller craft don't have the gravity equipment (if I were designing them, I'd probably leave it off to lower mass) since Adama talks about a tight turn meaning Kara would have to be pulling Gs like fighter pilots today do... So either the gravity equipment can generate a G, but not counter inertia (which would mean splat), or it's not included in the fighters. However, Raptors would seem to have it, since everyone always stands on the floor in those things, even in orbit over Kobol before being rammed by Raptors. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:08, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::::Remember the scene where Adama jokingly tells Billy that they're having good luck in getting to Kobol as both are pressed into their descending Raptor by 5 or 6 Gs? I agree, the artificial gravity compensates as if you were in a 1 G situation. I bet the Vipers are weightless to save the weight of an artificial gravity device, however, and I've yet to recall where a pilot takes something off and drops it inside a fighter. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:18, 9 December 2005 (EST)

Anyone given any thought to the time dilation caused by movement at such speeds? Might make for some interesting dialogue in an episode, if anything. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 21:22, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:If I understand my relativistic principles, sublight flight would have a slight relativistic effect. In the case of lightspeed, there is no relativistic effect as ships do not actually move at light speed, but move from one location to another--apparent FTL. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable to calculate the actual relativistic effects on, say, ''Colonial One's'' occupants at their cruise speed. Maybe someone else is knowledgeable. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:33, 31 December 2005 (EST)

==Artificial Gravity==
Be careful not to confuse Naturalistic SF with Hard SF. They have little to do with one another. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:09, 9 December 2005 (EST)
:Of course, in fact, they are quite opposite, but NSF takes a few elements from hard SF, though not in the extreme that hard SF defines itself. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:18, 9 December 2005 (EST)

==Sublight vs. FTL==
The fact that Colonial One, an FTL-capable ship, made its way from Caprica to Galactica at Sublight tells us something else - 5.5 hours of engine burn consume less energy than a hyperspace jump to cover the same distance. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:58, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:Not necessarily. Two reasons why--first, FTL might not have been an option: either it was illegal, seen as too dangerous for travel within a system, deemed too uncomfortable for passengers, or pilots simply weren't trained to calculate a jump, any of which are potentially valid given Tigh's comment that it had been 20 years since a jump. Of course, that may raise a question as to why the drive was installed in the first place. (Regulations? Holdover from the first war?) Secondly, it seems unrealistic that it would take more energy to jump that small distance than to burn the fuel because the entire fleet can jump like 230 times in a row ([[33]]) without any refueling problems or the like. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 21:19, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:I think that FTL flight is generally quite disconcerting to passengers, judging from Cally's take on it when we see ''Galactica'' make its first Jump in the Miniseries. So, sublight is preferable in most instances. I cannot determine from any episodes whether the fuel consumption is more or less when going at sublight over FTL. The comfort level is the most likely reason. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:52, 1 January 2006 (EST)

==Nukes==
If the energy density of [[Tylium]] is so much greater than fissile materials and has the added benefit of producing no fallout, and requiring no sophisticated trigger mechanism, why do the Colonials use nuclear warheads on their missiles rather than tylium bombs? Nuclear fallout has desirable side effects against organic targets, which explains Cylon use thereof, but what advantage does it offer human forces?

:(Obviously, in real life it's a question of storytelling:
:"For instance, in the Galactica mini-series, when the Cylons attack the colonists, they attack them with thermonuclear weapons. They don't attack them with lasers and photon torpedoes, and strange things that don't exist.
:"When you see a planet nuked, and you see those mushroom clouds, and hear about the destruction of entire cities by nuclear weapons, that is a much more terrifying and frightening idea than if you're saying fifteen thousand photon torpedoes were launched at Caprica. One is real and one is not." [http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/news/cult/2004/02/20/9599.shtml]
:"There would not be 'photon torpedoes' but instead nuclear missiles, because nukes are real and thus are frightening." [http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/magazine/17GALACTICA.html]
:"We use nukes. And these days, that’s truly scary. You use photon torpedoes and the audience goes 'oh, okay. shrug.'" [http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA513174.html?display=Top+Stories]) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:09, 11 December 2005 (EST)

:Nukes have the desireable side effect of creating an electromagnetic pulse which disrupts all (currently) known forms of electronics. --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:41, 8 January 2006 (EST)
: And a side note, now that I think of it. Considering the supposed rarity of tylium, Nukes are also much easier to produce and much less of a waste of a valuable resource. [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 13:12, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::You hit the nail on the head, Durandal. If you can, work up what you just said and add it to the article! --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:15, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::: Does not really fit in this article, whithout generating a new section for such a point. If anyone has a better idea for placement, I'm all ears. [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 13:25, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:My own thoughts on the subject are A) Tylium is somewhat rare so it is difficult to mass produce nuclear warheads, but more importantly B) Baltar said that detonating a nuclear warhead near Tylium would "render it inert", not create a chain reaction. I think that Tylium must be "reactive/unstable" enough that it's a good fuel source (moreso than just Plutonium), however, it probably has the chemical property that it is very difficult to produce an explosive uncontrollable chain reaction with it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:13, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::That would disagree with the extremely large tylium explosion seen at the end of "The Hand of God". I prefer Durandal's explanation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:24, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:::In Ricimer's defense, the explosion was caused by the precursor, the refined but unprocessed component that forms the fuel later. Precursor is more unstable or explosive than the fuel. There are chemicals throughout the Periodic Table that release tremendous energies, more so than plutonium. The problem is the process of controlling it. Else, hydrogen would be our fuel of choice for everything: common, cheap, and leaves a benign by-product. For the Colonies, tylium was their answer. I disagree that tylium is rare, although I think it is hard to find; the Fleet's luck in finding one rock of it also implies that a little tylium goes an awfully long way, but mining and processing it is a real bitch. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:40, 8 January 2006 (EST)

== Landings & Gravity ==

Unless I am completely mistaken, aside from whatever may be the 'standard' artifical gravity source aboard Galactica, it is explicitly stated that the actual landing pads in the flight pods rely upon magnitism to hold craft in place en route to the hanger.
:"Viper Four-five-zero, skids down, mag-lock secure." (Kelly to Apollo upon touchdown aproximately 22 minutes into the miniseries)
[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:56, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Correct. On the flight deck, magnetism is used to secure landing Vipers. But in the hangar deck and manned areas of the ship, something else is used, since the humans (and many other virtually non-magnetic items in CIC and elsewhere) are kept from floating. It's an unexplained conumdrum that right now is just a writing convenience. If the article appears to be vague in that topic, do modify it. I created and generated much of this article, and sometimes I can get too wordy and the point gets muddled. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:19, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:: I actually wrote this bit in response to note 2, which states it as a possibility as opposed to cannon-fact. I'm not quite sure HOW to rewrite it, unfortunately... [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 13:23, 8 January 2006 (EST)

== Expensive claim... ==

I find the recent expense claim [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|uncitable]] at best. There's absolutely no indication either way that financial expense played into utilizing FTL Jump technology in BSG. Therefore, unless we can get someone to point out where this info came from, I vote for its removal. Also, just because ''Galactica'' didn't perform a jump in 20 years doesn't really mean that it is normal for Colonail ships (military or otherwise) to rely on sublight travel alone. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:15, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I read it differently - the statement seems to infer expense from the fact that FTL travel is not used frequently, not vice-versa. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:23, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::I think they just didn't do it, because why risk the (albeit very very small) safety concerns of warping through space? (a wrong calculation and we could wind up in the sun", etc.) Remember, they really have FTL drive for two reasons: 1) It's a holdover from the Exodus (''theory'' but not established fact and frankly I don't believe that), 2) they do have a "sphere of influence" beyond the 12 Colonies, not full-fledged other planets, just mining-camp colonies like Troy. So that's why they put in FTL; plus it's good to have instantaneous travel. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:50, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:I think the current reasons are sufficient enough; there doesn't necessarily need to be a separate bullet point about "expense," especially because it is so vague and unexplained. Is it the cost of buying fuel that's expensive? Probably not, based on what we've seen so far in terms of tylium consumption. They seem to jump quite a bit and don't need to refuel very often. (Basically, just in Hand of God, and that's after jumping constantly for weeks. I mean, they could have been distributing Galactica's tylium to the other ships, but if Galactica has ''that'' much, it can't be that exorbitant of a fuel source, particularly so in peacetime when the ships were first loaded.) Is it wear and tear on the ship that costs money to fix? Maybe, but for the fleet to have lasted this long without any ships breaking down undercuts that theory. I mean, how else do you define expense? I'm not missing something here, am I? --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 02:19, 2 February 2006 (EST)

Talk:Black Market/Archive 1

2006-01-31T06:03:44Z

Drumstick: /* Analysis */

==Analysis==
The criticism here needs to be toned down drastically. I personally enjoyed this episode much more than I had been expecting to. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:16, 28 January 2006 (EST)
: I don't know exactly how to feel about this episode. Honestly, it wasn't all that bad -- it could have been much better executed, however. I can't really disagree with any of the critisms leveled at this episode, primarily because I hold them to be evident as well. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:45, 28 January 2006 (EST)
::I'm in agreement, the analysis section does need to be toned down a little. Some of the criticisms are totally justified, while other parts seem unduly harsh. It wasn't a great episode but despite its flaws in did tell an interesting story. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 10:12, 28 January 2006 (EST)

I've edited this article heavily to concise it from its overly play-by-play format, but it could still see a more concising eye. I've also toned down the analysis to provable (i.e., non-subjective) points of the episode, deleting redundant or highly subjective commentary. There was too much personal bias in the story, reading more like a review than an analysis. Despite the small story in this episode, this article is quite weighty than the others. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:50, 28 January 2006 (EST)

Thank you for editing down my Analysis. Sometimes it's hard to do a write up, so I just let myself rant, and acutally ''hoped'' that others would heavily edit it down to something more concise, depending one whether they agreed or not. I was just getting the ball rolling. Thanks. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:57, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:I was about to say, the summary seems a bit lengthy. It's supposed to be a summary, not a play-by-play. I admire the fact the Noteworthy Dialogue's have been shorter lately, focusing on critical stuff. Thanks for the edit, but I still think its overly detailed. Read the summaries for "33" and "Water" and see that they focus on what happens during the episode and not why or reasoning. I feel like i'm reading an essay rather then a description, but thats just me. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 18:10, 28 January 2006 (EST)
::That's simply because there hasn't been as much quotable stuff in the past two episodes, while a LOT of Res Ship I and II was quoteable. Yeah, it was a little long but I was just trying to hurry and get it all on before I had to turn my computer off. I don't normally do summariies, besides; the plot was really confusing and took quite a few twists and turns. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:08, 28 January 2006 (EST)
:::Whoa, look at that summary. I saw an earlier version this morning, and its better now, but its still exceptionally long when compared to other episodes. Someone needs to take to it with a flaming chainsaw. I'd do it, but I am somewhat unsure of how much would be too much, as Ricimer is correct - it was a complicated episode. Does anyone really like it the way it is now, or can I go in there and edit it? Remember, it can always be reverted. I'd rather shorten it too much, and then have us realize that some points were exceptionally important and replace them, then leave it too long with unimportant points left in. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:18, 28 January 2006 (EST)

: I actually pared it down a bit, and made it more chronologically correct. Any hint of analysis or reasoning in the Summary's content is not my doing -- I try to keep a very sterile "This happened, then that" approach in writing. I'm sure that a few "steps" can be condensed further, but looking it over at this point, it looks like it describes what transcended fairly well. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 20:56, 28 January 2006 (EST)
::Got rid of a few analysis points myself, looks a lot better now. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 16:10, 29 January 2006 (EST)

I don't know if the flashbacks of Apollo's relationship from before the attack should be characterized as an "interesting turn." "Contrived" would make more sense. We've heard next to nothing about Apollo's relationships for 26 episodes, not to mention the miniseries, and all of a sudden he has a pregnant girlfriend that he misses terribly? I can excuse someone like Wallace Grey appearing out of nowhere, but this is just too much, and I think the analysis should reflect that. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 13:37, 29 January 2006 (EST)

Regarding Drumstick's edit at 03:38, 30 January 2006: ''''You have done well, grasshopper'''' --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:37, 29 January 2006 (EST)

:Just trying to stick to the high standard set by all of you =) Thanks Ricimer. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 01:03, 31 January 2006 (EST)

== Regular vs. Guest Star ==
I noticed that someone edited this and said that they "included Leah Cairns (Racetrack)" as a Guest Star. At what point are characters considered "regulars" versus just being a spot-on "guest star"? Personally, I consider characters like Racetrack, Cat, and Hot Dog as regulars by now, albeit in the minor, second-tier category. They are existing in the "Wedge factor"... or, to put it better, they are in that role that [[Boomer (TOS)|Boomer]] and [[Jolly (TOS)|Jolly]] held in The Old Series -- that of a regularly re-occuring peripheral character that the fan can follow, and aren't getting killed off every episode like the Star Trek "Redshirt". -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 10:50, 28 January 2006 (CST)

:There are seven regulars - Edward James Olmos, Mary McDonnell, James Callis, Tricia Helfer, Jamie Bamber, Katee Sakhoff, and Grace Park. They are contracted on a per-season basis. Everyone else is a guest star, paid on a per-episode basis. There are two types of guest star - those listed during the opening of Act 1, after the intro sequence, and those listed in the credits at the end of the episode. I'm not entirely sure what the difference is, but the larger roles tend to be the ones listed earlier. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:56, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:It's a bit of a grey area; officially, there are 7 "regular cast" members, as stated above. There's also "recurring characters", in legalize, these are "guest stars" that appear in most episodes. Case in point, Colonel Tigh has been in every episode but ins't counted as a main cast member (something to do with salaries, etc) and Chief Tyrol has appeard in all but two episodes (he grew more as they went along), so he's kind of also a recurring character too. Cally kind of also grew into that, as well. So the line between "regular" and "recurring" is blurry for Col. Tigh and Tyrol. Similarly, there is a blurry line between "guest" and "recurring". Several "guest" characters reappear more than once (Elosh, Dr. Cottle, Cain and Fisk I guess). Meanwhile, Kat and Hot Dog were originally intended as one-shot guests, but according to the DVD commentary, RDM was surprised that other writers would then script them in whenever "another pilot" was required, and they've been building up Kat. Likewise, Racetrack was just a "guest" but I think has advanced to "recurring" becase of all the character development she got in Final Cut and Flight of the Phoenix and she's also appeared alot. At any rate, there's a blurry line and it's really subjective.
:That said, I do want to add "Helo and Tyrol do not appear in this episode" to the notes for easy referrence, because even though they aren't "regulars", they have each only missed one maybe two episodes before this. Tyrol wasn't in "Home, Part I", and Helo wasn't in "Fragged". So I think that makes it significant enough to put down there.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 13:33, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::BSG also makes the distinction of "co-stars" which appear at the beginning of Act 1 but without the heading of "Guest Star" that all the other guest stars do. I think Racetrack, Kat, and Hot Dog are still listed as actual guest stars, though. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 13:26, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::I still disagree. There's no expectation that guest characters like Helo and Tyrol will appear in every episode, so their absence here is really unremarkable. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:00, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::Given that both of them have each appeared in all but one of the previous episodes, I would actually find it ''quite'' remarkable. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:06, 28 January 2006 (EST)

== Baltar's Treason ==
Seems to me there's a lot of "jumping the gun" vis-a-vis Baltar. For one thing, he did not knowingly have anything to do with the Cylon attack. While his actions were unethical, he clearly had no intention of committing genocide. He was a dupe in that respect. Nor is there any reason for the President to think him working with the Cylons on the basis of his having been with '''Six''' prior to the attack unless she also had some motive for believing he knew this woman to be a Cylon (which he did not). If confronted with this fact, he can (with complete honesty even) say: "Madame President, no less than two crewmembers of the Galactica fell in love with a Cylon. So did I. I admit this. And, like them, I did not know she was a Cylon. Nor can I say in total candor my feelings for the woman I knew are not still...tender. As well as not a little bit confused. This was not a matter I would share willingly. But if you examine the facts, you will realize it likely I was neither the first, the tenth, or even the hundredth human being to be so deceived by the nature of our enemy."

She may think him a selfish, unethical wild card (and I'd agree). She may dislike him personally and think he'd best be as far from any kind of political power as possible. That seems to me totally reasonable. But what reason has anyone to think he's an actual traitor? A Cylon himself? Ah, that would at least make some sense, as far as suspicions go. But how to prove it? And besides, what if he isn't? [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 12:21, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:You're also talking about a woman who had an epiphany during a very traumatic situation, and like most of the people in the Fleet, Laura is human...and humans make mistakes. She might be "on the ball" in every way when it comes to her work as President, but her dislike of Baltar is on a personal level, and personal feelings, no matter how much people try to prevent it, will come into play in other aspects of their dealing with the situation. I suspect that will crystalize more as we go towards the season finale.

:There is also the fact that while Baltar may have been a dupe in the beginning, he's cleaning perilously close to the pit of darkness now, and today's dupe may well end up being season three's traitor.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 19:34, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::RDM notes in his podcast for ''Epiphanies'' and implies in his podcast for ''Black Market'' that it was his intention that the viewer understand Roslin's reaction in ''Epiphanies'' as her realization that Baltar "had something to do with it." "It" being the Cylon Attack. Whether RDM pulled that off or not is, of course, up to the viewer. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 19:39, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::Regardless, she doesn't have physical "evidence" against him, so acting on what she remembered might be harder to do. --'''''[[User_talk:Ricimer|Ricimer]]''''' 20:11, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::::Not to mention that in a case of law, it's merely "he said, she said". Yeah, few in the fleet like him, and they'd probably love to bounce him out the first airlock sans space suit, but as long as they have courts, laws and a (slightly flagging) desire for order, he's got the law on his side.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 03:53, 29 January 2006 (EST)

::::: Baltar could even confirm every single fact Roselyn might offer, yet still realistically claim innocence. The simple facts are that, while there is something fishy going on, no one has any real evidence that Baltar is guilty of anything. And I still suspect he's going to end up in a real sense saving the day--because life is like that. Some of the greatest leaders have had repellant qualities while sometimes those with nothing but good intentions really frak things up. Besides, look at it this way. This war has only three possible ends: (1) Humanity is wiped out, very possible. (2) The Cylons are wiped out, highly unlikely. (3) Cylons and Humans find a way to share the universe. Between them, Baltar seems to be working for option number three.

:::::: Also Baltar has already been publicly accused of treason and managed to demonstrate that the accusation was false. Roselyn would require some solid evidence (which at the moment she doesn't have) to publicly accuse him otherwise it could easily be dismissed as another attempt to smear his name. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 18:45, 29 January 2006 (EST)

== Shevon's name? ==

Minor question here: are we sure about the spelling of her name? Watching the
episode, I assumed it was Siobhan, a fairly common name of (I think) Irish origin, which
is pronounced approximately like "Shevon". Was surprised to see "Shevon" listed as the actual spelling.--Ashe

:Ashe, I ran into you saying this before on the official messageboard, where I man known as "The Merovingian". I had assumed you were being sarcastic. I really, REALLY don't want to be rude in any way, but simply list what I feel are the facts, and I say this without being condescending: 1) Multiple Galactiaca news sites and previews like Gateworld refer to her as "Shevon" 2) It ''sounds'' like "Shevon" 3) No one that ''I'' have myself encountered ever thought that was anything like an Irish name. It seems to me like you are letting personal feelings get in the way of your interpretations. If anyone else would like to comment on this to clear things up, please do so. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:19, 30 January 2006 (EST)

::Sorry, that was not me. Please make sure you're flaming the right person, hmm?
I have never asked this question (or seen it addressed) anywhere else. Let me take your points in reverse order. #3: According to www.babynamesofireland.com, Siobhan is currently their number-one most popular girl's name. #2: Siobhan is pronounced like "Shevon", as I already said. #1: If official BSG sites list this character's name as "Shevon" then I'm not arguing otherwise. Just needed clarification, which you have provided. On to other topics, then.
--Ashe

:Please sign your names to things. Thank you for seeing that it's on other Galactica sites too, but I want to point out that your logic doesn't make sense there. You said that you though that "Shevon" might be the Irish name "Siobhan". I said it wasn't. Your counterpoint to this was to point out that, ''in Ireland'', the Irish name Siobhan is the most popular female baby name? That doesn't really prove anything one way or the other. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:27, 30 January 2006 (EST)

::Not gonna fight this one with you. My goal was, and is, to help improve the contents of the wiki, which sometimes includes asking questions about things. Sorry for not knowing how to generate the name/date/timestamp before now. -- [[User:Ashe|Ashe]] 17:23, 30 January 2006 (EST)

::Ricimer, you're overreacting again. A simple explanation would have sufficed. Remember to assume good faith. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:17, 30 January 2006 (EST)

:::Indeed. But I felt I might as well be definative; the Tyrol v. Hadrian rank thing has dragged out for some time because we didn't list all evidence at the beginning. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:35, 30 January 2006 (EST)

::::Practice being definitive and polite at the same time. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:37, 30 January 2006 (EST)

:::::I concur with Peter. Ricimer, please assume good faith; it is possible to be polite and truthful simultaneously. Thank you, Ricimer. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:19, 30 January 2006 (EST)

Black Market

2006-01-30T03:38:52Z

Drumstick: /* Analysis */ changed bit in anal. about the pregant girlfriend; i'm a little afraid i made it sound too harsh... =/

:''For information on the black market itself, see [[Black market (organization)]].''

{{Episode Data|
Image = [[Image:Black_Market-Lee.jpg|300px]]
| Title= Black Market
| Series= [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|The Re-imagined Series]]
| Season= [[Season 2 (2005-06)|2]]
| Episode= 14
| Guests=[[Richard Hatch]] ([[Tom Zarek]]) [http://imdb.com/name/nm0006419/ Claudette Mink] ([[Shevon]]) [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004886/ Bill Duke] ([[Phelan]]) Hayley Guiel ([[Paya]]) Unknown ([[Weller]]) Unknown ([[Beach]]) [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0065320/ Graham Beckel] ([[Jack Fisk|CMDR Fisk]]) [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Leah+Cairns Leah Cairns] ([[Margaret Edmonson|Racetrack]]) [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Amy+Ciupak+Lalonde Amy Lalonde] [[Gianne]] John Mann (Linden) [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Brad+Mann Brad Mann] (Pegasus Marine) [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+James+Ashcroft James Ashcroft] (Security Officer) [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Gustavo+Febres Gustavo Febres] (Herbalist)
| Writer=[http://imdb.com/name/nm0894156/ Mark Verheiden]
| Story=
| Director=[http://imdb.com/name/nm0372138/ James Head]
| Production=
| Rating=
| US Airdate=January 27 2006
| UK Airdate=
| DVD=
| Population=49,597
| Prev= [[Epiphanies]]
| Next= [[Scar]]
}}



== Overview ==

: ''Captain [[Lee Adama]], battling haunting demons of his own from a spurned love lost on Caprica, investigates the murder of new ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' commander [[Jack Fisk]], and uncovers a black market that strains the resources of the Fleet.''

== Summary ==

*The recovered President [[Laura Roslin]], discusses her plan to eliminate black market problems within the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] in Adama's quarters with Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]], ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' Commander [[Jack Fisk|Fisk]], and Dr. [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]].
*When he arrives back in his quarters on ''Pegasus'' (Cain's old quarters) Fisk is garroted by several black market gangsters. One in particular stands out as a well-dressed "businessman".
*[[Lee Adama]], severely depressed since his ejection from the [[Blackbird]], has apparently been nurturing a relationship on ''[[Cloud 9]]'' with a woman named [[Shevon]], who has a young daughter named [[Paya]].
*In a "morning after" talk, Lee and Shevon talk in tones that hint towards his wanting of a serious relationship. Shevon appears to dodge these, and requests 100 extra cubits as Lee is leaving since he "stayed the night".
*In flashback scenes, we see a past love of Lee Adama on Caprica. The scenes revolve around a rendevous between Lee and this girl, which resolves with her running away. The details and intensity of these flashbacks increase as the episode progresses.
*Apollo finds a small fortune of luxury goods in Fisk's closet, including a gold bracelet with the monogram "E.T" on it. Apollo realizes it's [[Ellen Tigh]]'s, and confront's Col. [[Saul Tigh]] about it in his quarters. Tigh says that it was he and not his wife who traded it to Fisk for good liquor, fruit, etc. for Ellen and himself. Tigh explains that Fisk was deeply involved in using ''Pegasus'' as a hub to fence black market goods.
*Dr. [[Cottle]]'s autopsy finds cubits jammed in Fisk's mouth, perhaps as a warning. Adama realizes that Fisk was trying to undercut one of his black market suppliers, and they took revenge.
*On ''[[Colonial One]]'', President Roslin, piecing together her [[Epiphanies|near-death recollections of Caprica]], becomes aware of Baltar's pre-holocaust contact with a copy of the Cylon agent known to the Fleet as [[Number Six|"Shelly Godfrey" and "Gina"]]. She candidly asks Dr. Baltar, her vice president, to resign. While he never wanted any political power in his life or the office at first, he wants to stay VP now. Roslin tells him it's not an offer she'll make again, but he leaves anyway.
*Off duty, working out in ''Galactica's'' gym, [[Anastasia Dualla]] comes to [[Lee Adama]] to bravely ask if their flirtation while working out is leading somewhere. Adama has no idea what to say, and Dualla takes the quiet hint.
*Lee Adama rushes to Shevon's quarters on ''Cloud 9'' after she calls for help. He finds the bruised Shevon and Paya, and decides to take them to ''Galactica'', but is ambushed by thugs, who nearly garrote him. As he is held within a breath of his life, he is confronted by a well-dressed, blunt "businessman", who warns him to back off of the investigation.
*After the beating, Apollo notices the corpse of the man that garroted Fisk. [[Tom Zarek]] drops by the scene in Shevon's room later, and discusses the black market with Apollo.
*Zarek points out that the black market does get supplies where they are needed. Nonetheless, Zarek mentions the central hub of the black market, ''[[Prometheus]]'', a ship so lawless it's practically "off the grid", where you can supposedly get anything. Zarek gives a name to the "businessman" -- [[Phelan]] -- and tells Apollo that he probably took Shevon there. Additionally, he points out that Phelan has given Lee the murderer -- the thug with a bullet in his head -- and that it should be considered "a way out."
*On ''Prometheus'', alone, Lee Adama searches and finds Paya and other children locked up.
*Apollo encounters Phelan in the ''Prometheus's'' bar. Apollo warns that ''Galactica'' is fully aware of his location, and that the battlestar would vent ''Prometheus's'' air into space unless he gets Shevon and Paya back, and the black market is shut down.
*Phelan counters that the Fleet needs the black market; it's like a pressure valve. Whenever a ship falls behind in the supply schedule, the black market fills the need. Phelan states that they sell all things to fill all wants, including ''child'' prostitution. Adama is horrified. Shevon is dragged out and admits to her work for Phelan as a prostitute.
*Taking a gun from one of Phelan's guards, Adama threatens Phelan about the black market crossing the line and after several flashbacks, shoots him in the chest.
*Apollo turns to Phelan's guards, also in shock, and tells them that he's not going to shut down all black market trade because the Fleet needs it for vital supplies whether he likes it or not. However, they continue their business at his whim only. If there are more killings, hold back essential medicines, or use children, he will annihilate them without restraint.
*Back on ''Colonial One'', the Adamas present their reports to the President. Roslin is upset that Apollo did not shut down the black market, but Apollo counters that they will never have a perfect system and there will always be a black market.

== Questions ==
*How were the black market gangsters able to penetrate ''Pegasus''' security, causing the death of its second commanding officer in a short period?
**It is likely that ''Pegasus'' draconian command structure allows for abuse, and Fisk's own use of the market led to tacit protection of it, including its figurehead, Phelan.
*At the end of the episode, Zarek is seen walking in a crowd on the ''Prometheus'', with one of Phelan's old men nearby. Is Zarek going to try to fill the power vacuum left in the wake of Phelan's death? Was it just showing how everyone needs to use the black market, even someone like Tom Zarek who claims to wash his hands of involvement with it?
**Did Zarek somehow set up the entire incident to get Apollo to kill Phelan for him, allowing him to take over control of the black market?
*The woman that William Adama (father) discusses with Lee Adama (son). Is it Shevon, the prostitute (the obvious, close-at-hand issue)? Or, is it the girl back on Caprica (the deeper-seated, much more affecting issue)?
*Why hasn't Roslin openly accused Baltar of collaborating with the Cylons after "[[Epiphanies]]"?
**Possibly it is because she has no actual "evidence", and she remembered seeing him when her mind was in shambles dying of cancer, so she may not feel confident enough in this revelation to act on it more openly. However, it does seem to have influenced her to the point that unoficially, she no longer trusts Baltar.
*Did Apollo's pregnant former love on Caprica actually die, or is she perhaps one of the handful of survivors? Or worse, a prisoner in one of the Cylon [[Farms]]?
*Who will take command of ''Pegasus'' following Fisk's death?
**Answer in spoilers text box
{{spoiltext|An officer named [[Barry Trammel]] is promoted to replace Fisk as commander of ''Pegasus''. ("[[The Captain's Hand]]").}}

== Analysis ==

*Ron D. Moore admits in his podcast that this episode did not live up to his expectations. The long complaint about failed goals he made in his blog was actually about this episode, and not "[[Downloaded]]", as speculated by other unofficial sources.
*It may be that Moore was attempting to work the story as a detective mystery, but fell short of the goal.
*Apollo's recent angst may appear to some viewers as rather hastily added to the character, much like the issues involving [[Laura Roslin]]'s miraculously fast recovery from her cancer in the [[Epiphanies|previous episode]].
*The Apollo-Dualla relationship, a story thread running since "[[Resistance]]", appears to have been stopped very abruptly, with only Adama's angst as an excuse in ending their flirtation. The manner in which Dualla and Adama speak to each other appeared out of character. Dualla later appears with [[Billy Keikeya]], where he says little, and Dualla appears ready to give Adama up and continue things more seriously with Billy. Actor Paul Campbell (Billy) has been filming a lot of TV pilots and other projects, so he hasn't had much to do this season. But, in comparison to [[Cally]] or [[Kat]], who now seem better developed, Billy's character appears underused.
*Much of the regular cast, including [[Kara Thrace]], [[Sharon Valerii]], [[Helo]], [[Felix Gaeta]], [[Galen Tyrol]], and [[Cally]] do not appear in this episode. Baltar's virtual [[Number Six]] is seen in what some may feel was a distracting appearance, taunting Baltar on ''Pegasus'' and in the meeting with Roslin.
*Col. Tigh is merely a person to be interviewed in Apollo's investigation. Dr. [[Cottle]]'s screen time has increased in the last two episodes, although his character's contribution may be too short for some.
*Like many "pulp" murder mysteries, the episode appeared without a special point or purpose other than to unravel the mystery. Perhaps the writers were attempting to stress the ''realism'' of living in a "Rag Tag Fugitive Fleet" of civilians; yes, there would probably be gangsters carving out fiefdoms who would run drug, medicine, and prostitution rackets. The show took a really dark turn when it made mention of child prostitution. Once again, this isn't anything that several police-dramas airing at the same time of night as BSG haven't done, and nothing is "shown"; a character just mentions in dialog that he runs a ring of this, and the "good guy" promptly kills him and shuts it down. However, the entire idea of the drug rings, etc. is a little disturbing, even if entirely logical.
*The storyline of Apollo's pregnant girlfriend on Caprica was unusual in that this episode is the first mention of such a crucial backstory thread. Considering the extent to which the memory seems to weigh Lee down, it seems contrived to introduce it so late in the series, especially when there have been [[Resurrection Ship, Part II|many cirucumstances]] in earlier episodes during which such reflection would have been considerably more apt. In addition, confusion arose concerning Shevon's line about Adama's old flame "want(ing) to give you a child." That is, many viewers may not have understood that Adama's old love was actually already pregnant. Further, the incessant repetition of the flashback, which did not vary, did little to advance the plot.
*[[Jack Fisk]] being killed as easily as Cain was implausible. Admiral Adama is now escorted by marines at all times. With Cain's [[Number Six#Gina|killer still on the loose]], it would rational for Fisk to have some paranoia.
**Phelan and his men clearly had access to Fisk already, so it may not be all that implausible.
**Considering that an attempt on Adama's life has already happened once, marines should have been escorting him from the very beginning. With Fisk and Cain now both dead, there may be a standing Fleet or Colonial military order in place that automatically activates, similar to such real-world orders in the US military.
*The scene between Baltar and Roslin was interesting in its scripting and acting. Roslin is determined to be ''extremely'' polite, forceful, and cheery despite the fact that she's making a power play and now ''knows'' Baltar has something to do with the fall of the Colonies. Viewers should probably expect this revelation to come to a head at the close of season 2.

== Notes ==
*Survivor count for this episode was 49,597. That's one less from last week's episode, "[[Epiphanies]]" in which a suicide bomber attacked the tylium refinery. However, bodies are seen blasted into space, and Adama actually says in dialog "people are dead", so more than one should have died. However, this number is occasionally offset by new babies born in the Fleet, which can account for some small discrepancies.
*Zarek notes that he is the representative of the ''Astral Queen'', although in "[[Colonial Day]]", he was elected to represent the colony of Sagittaron. Given the nature of the conversation, however, he may have been speaking of his responsibilities in a less-than-official capacity.
*Central characters [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] and [[Sharon Valerii]] do not appear in this episode.
*Fisk, Phelan, and Apollo all use the term "cigar" in this episode. The use of the term "cigar", as opposed to the normal term of [[fumarello]], was a curious find in the episode. Like the mistaken use of "RADAR" instead of [[DRADIS]] in a past episode, this is likely a problem involving writers who apparently missed doing their homework on terminology from the [[series bible]] and past episodes.
*As seen in [[Final Cut]], there are occasionally meetings of all the ships in the fleet.
*Bill Duke (Phelan) also appeared in the scifi film [[Wikipedia:Predator|Predator]], and will play Bolivar Trask in the upcoming [[Wikipedia:X-Men_3|X-Men 3]].
*Helo does not appear in this episode. This is only the second episode that he has not appeared in; the other was "[[Fragged]]".
*Tyrol does not appear in this episode. This is only the second episode he has not appeared in; the first was "[[Home, Part I]]".
*The "R&D Animation" skit during the credits is a parody of the scifi film "[[Wikipedia:The_Thing|The Thing]]": David Eick transforms into a horrific multi-tentacled monster from the film and attacks Ron Moore.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

*"You're not gonna shoot. You're not like me. You're not gonna--(''Apollo shoots him in the chest midsentence'')--Uhuhhh..."
:—''The last words of Phelan''

== Official Statements ==

*''In an interview in issue #197 of TV Zone, James Callis (Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]]) said'': "Mary and I had a great deal of fun doing a scene where the President tells Baltar in no uncertain terms that she doesn’t like him and wants him to resign. He’s not very happy about that."

== Statistics ==



{{Episode List}}

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Fan fiction/Golden Toaster Awards/Archive 1

2006-01-29T22:23:12Z

Drumstick:

I don't remember what "lifetime achievement awards" like the TOSer, Solium, and GINO stood for. I have to ask the guy in charge: the actual website (GalacticaActual) where the event was held has been destroyed, apparently, so I also no longer know exactly who the nominees were, but I can check for the meaning of these awards. I do, however, have an accurate list of the winners.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:13, 29 January 2006 (EST)

:I like this. =) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 17:23, 29 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Black Market/Archive 1

2006-01-29T18:37:50Z

Drumstick: /* Analysis */

==Analysis==
The criticism here needs to be toned down drastically. I personally enjoyed this episode much more than I had been expecting to. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:16, 28 January 2006 (EST)
: I don't know exactly how to feel about this episode. Honestly, it wasn't all that bad -- it could have been much better executed, however. I can't really disagree with any of the critisms leveled at this episode, primarily because I hold them to be evident as well. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:45, 28 January 2006 (EST)
::I'm in agreement, the analysis section does need to be toned down a little. Some of the criticisms are totally justified, while other parts seem unduly harsh. It wasn't a great episode but despite its flaws in did tell an interesting story. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 10:12, 28 January 2006 (EST)

I've edited this article heavily to concise it from its overly play-by-play format, but it could still see a more concising eye. I've also toned down the analysis to provable (i.e., non-subjective) points of the episode, deleting redundant or highly subjective commentary. There was too much personal bias in the story, reading more like a review than an analysis. Despite the small story in this episode, this article is quite weighty than the others. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:50, 28 January 2006 (EST)

Thank you for editing down my Analysis. Sometimes it's hard to do a write up, so I just let myself rant, and acutally ''hoped'' that others would heavily edit it down to something more concise, depending one whether they agreed or not. I was just getting the ball rolling. Thanks. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:57, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:I was about to say, the summary seems a bit lengthy. It's supposed to be a summary, not a play-by-play. I admire the fact the Noteworthy Dialogue's have been shorter lately, focusing on critical stuff. Thanks for the edit, but I still think its overly detailed. Read the summaries for "33" and "Water" and see that they focus on what happens during the episode and not why or reasoning. I feel like i'm reading an essay rather then a description, but thats just me. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 18:10, 28 January 2006 (EST)
::That's simply because there hasn't been as much quotable stuff in the past two episodes, while a LOT of Res Ship I and II was quoteable. Yeah, it was a little long but I was just trying to hurry and get it all on before I had to turn my computer off. I don't normally do summariies, besides; the plot was really confusing and took quite a few twists and turns. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:08, 28 January 2006 (EST)
:::Whoa, look at that summary. I saw an earlier version this morning, and its better now, but its still exceptionally long when compared to other episodes. Someone needs to take to it with a flaming chainsaw. I'd do it, but I am somewhat unsure of how much would be too much, as Ricimer is correct - it was a complicated episode. Does anyone really like it the way it is now, or can I go in there and edit it? Remember, it can always be reverted. I'd rather shorten it too much, and then have us realize that some points were exceptionally important and replace them, then leave it too long with unimportant points left in. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:18, 28 January 2006 (EST)

: I actually pared it down a bit, and made it more chronologically correct. Any hint of analysis or reasoning in the Summary's content is not my doing -- I try to keep a very sterile "This happened, then that" approach in writing. I'm sure that a few "steps" can be condensed further, but looking it over at this point, it looks like it describes what transcended fairly well. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 20:56, 28 January 2006 (EST)

I don't know if the flashbacks of Apollo's relationship from before the attack should be characterized as an "interesting turn." "Contrived" would make more sense. We've heard next to nothing about Apollo's relationships for 26 episodes, not to mention the miniseries, and all of a sudden he has a pregnant girlfriend that he misses terribly? I can excuse someone like Wallace Grey appearing out of nowhere, but this is just too much, and I think the analysis should reflect that. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 13:37, 29 January 2006 (EST)

== Regular vs. Guest Star ==
I noticed that someone edited this and said that they "included Leah Cairns (Racetrack)" as a Guest Star. At what point are characters considered "regulars" versus just being a spot-on "guest star"? Personally, I consider characters like Racetrack, Cat, and Hot Dog as regulars by now, albeit in the minor, second-tier category. They are existing in the "Wedge factor"... or, to put it better, they are in that role that [[Boomer (TOS)|Boomer]] and [[Jolly (TOS)|Jolly]] held in The Old Series -- that of a regularly re-occuring peripheral character that the fan can follow, and aren't getting killed off every episode like the Star Trek "Redshirt". -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 10:50, 28 January 2006 (CST)

:There are seven regulars - Edward James Olmos, Mary McDonnell, James Callis, Tricia Helfer, Jamie Bamber, Katee Sakhoff, and Grace Park. They are contracted on a per-season basis. Everyone else is a guest star, paid on a per-episode basis. There are two types of guest star - those listed during the opening of Act 1, after the intro sequence, and those listed in the credits at the end of the episode. I'm not entirely sure what the difference is, but the larger roles tend to be the ones listed earlier. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:56, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:It's a bit of a grey area; officially, there are 7 "regular cast" members, as stated above. There's also "recurring characters", in legalize, these are "guest stars" that appear in most episodes. Case in point, Colonel Tigh has been in every episode but ins't counted as a main cast member (something to do with salaries, etc) and Chief Tyrol has appeard in all but two episodes (he grew more as they went along), so he's kind of also a recurring character too. Cally kind of also grew into that, as well. So the line between "regular" and "recurring" is blurry for Col. Tigh and Tyrol. Similarly, there is a blurry line between "guest" and "recurring". Several "guest" characters reappear more than once (Elosh, Dr. Cottle, Cain and Fisk I guess). Meanwhile, Kat and Hot Dog were originally intended as one-shot guests, but according to the DVD commentary, RDM was surprised that other writers would then script them in whenever "another pilot" was required, and they've been building up Kat. Likewise, Racetrack was just a "guest" but I think has advanced to "recurring" becase of all the character development she got in Final Cut and Flight of the Phoenix and she's also appeared alot. At any rate, there's a blurry line and it's really subjective.
:That said, I do want to add "Helo and Tyrol do not appear in this episode" to the notes for easy referrence, because even though they aren't "regulars", they have each only missed one maybe two episodes before this. Tyrol wasn't in "Home, Part I", and Helo wasn't in "Fragged". So I think that makes it significant enough to put down there.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 13:33, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::BSG also makes the distinction of "co-stars" which appear at the beginning of Act 1 but without the heading of "Guest Star" that all the other guest stars do. I think Racetrack, Kat, and Hot Dog are still listed as actual guest stars, though. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 13:26, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::I still disagree. There's no expectation that guest characters like Helo and Tyrol will appear in every episode, so their absence here is really unremarkable. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:00, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::Given that both of them have each appeared in all but one of the previous episodes, I would actually find it ''quite'' remarkable. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:06, 28 January 2006 (EST)

== Baltar's Treason ==
Seems to me there's a lot of "jumping the gun" vis-a-vis Baltar. For one thing, he did not knowingly have anything to do with the Cylon attack. While his actions were unethical, he clearly had no intention of committing genocide. He was a dupe in that respect. Nor is there any reason for the President to think him working with the Cylons on the basis of his having been with '''Six''' prior to the attack unless she also had some motive for believing he knew this woman to be a Cylon (which he did not). If confronted with this fact, he can (with complete honesty even) say: "Madame President, no less than two crewmembers of the Galactica fell in love with a Cylon. So did I. I admit this. And, like them, I did not know she was a Cylon. Nor can I say in total candor my feelings for the woman I knew are not still...tender. As well as not a little bit confused. This was not a matter I would share willingly. But if you examine the facts, you will realize it likely I was neither the first, the tenth, or even the hundredth human being to be so deceived by the nature of our enemy."

She may think him a selfish, unethical wild card (and I'd agree). She may dislike him personally and think he'd best be as far from any kind of political power as possible. That seems to me totally reasonable. But what reason has anyone to think he's an actual traitor? A Cylon himself? Ah, that would at least make some sense, as far as suspicions go. But how to prove it? And besides, what if he isn't? [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 12:21, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:You're also talking about a woman who had an epiphany during a very traumatic situation, and like most of the people in the Fleet, Laura is human...and humans make mistakes. She might be "on the ball" in every way when it comes to her work as President, but her dislike of Baltar is on a personal level, and personal feelings, no matter how much people try to prevent it, will come into play in other aspects of their dealing with the situation. I suspect that will crystalize more as we go towards the season finale.

:There is also the fact that while Baltar may have been a dupe in the beginning, he's cleaning perilously close to the pit of darkness now, and today's dupe may well end up being season three's traitor.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 19:34, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::RDM notes in his podcast for ''Epiphanies'' and implies in his podcast for ''Black Market'' that it was his intention that the viewer understand Roslin's reaction in ''Epiphanies'' as her realization that Baltar "had something to do with it." "It" being the Cylon Attack. Whether RDM pulled that off or not is, of course, up to the viewer. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 19:39, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:::Regardless, she doesn't have physical "evidence" against him, so acting on what she remembered might be harder to do. --'''''[[User_talk:Ricimer|Ricimer]]''''' 20:11, 28 January 2006 (EST)

::::Not to mention that in a case of law, it's merely "he said, she said". Yeah, few in the fleet like him, and they'd probably love to bounce him out the first airlock sans space suit, but as long as they have courts, laws and a (slightly flagging) desire for order, he's got the law on his side.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 03:53, 29 January 2006 (EST)

::::: Baltar could even confirm every single fact Roselyn might offer, yet still realistically claim innocence. The simple facts are that, while there is something fishy going on, no one has any real evidence that Baltar is guilty of anything. And I still suspect he's going to end up in a real sense saving the day--because life is like that. Some of the greatest leaders have had repellant qualities while sometimes those with nothing but good intentions really frak things up. Besides, look at it this way. This war has only three possible ends: (1) Humanity is wiped out, very possible. (2) The Cylons are wiped out, highly unlikely. (3) Cylons and Humans find a way to share the universe. Between them, Baltar seems to be working for option number three.

User talk:The Merovingian

2006-01-28T01:27:47Z

Drumstick:

== Regarding "Spoilers" ==

Welcome to the Wiki! Just wanted to drop a note by and state that this site doesn't censor spoilers. Therefore, I've reverted your changes. See the [[Battlestar Wiki:Spoiler Policy|Spoiler Policy]]. Thanks! -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 11:06, 17 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Well yes, but I think we should just keep stuff that's current, or chronological i.e. put the first entry under "Pegasus" saying that Tyrol served there, THEN mentioned the rest...I don't know. P.S. What's with that IP address that keeps sending junk links on this wiki? Is it a person or a bot?

: I think its a bot of some type. I'll probably end up blocking the IP ranges. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:52, 17 Aug 2005 (EDT)

==Cylon Wars==

Just wanted to compliment you for your recent adjustments to the Cylon War articles. Nice job. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:43, 18 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Ditto. I like the Battle pages you've created. It has a great functionality to show in a nutshell any changes in equipment and manpower. If that isn't already there, can we have a count of lost Colonial ships, pilots, or other humans? [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:09, 18 Aug 2005 (EDT)

:As I understand it, there is a "list of pilots" page, and I believe that it and the article for ''Galactica'' cover Viper numbers (though Raptor numbers are anyone's guesss so far; the official site+on screen dialog has only said the number of Vipers). I also appreciate it that RDM, unlike the morons on Star Trek: Voyager (HOW MANY shuttles did they lose?) will devote an ENTIRE EPISODE's "A" plot ("Flight of the Phoenix") to saying that the Galactica has reached the point where they have to start building more Vipers ''from scratch''. --->Actually, all I did was copy/paste the wiki battlebox from Wikipedia's Battle of Pelennor Fields page....of course, I WROTE most of the entry for Pelennor Fields including the battlebox, as well as the box for Helm's Deep, Black Gate, Bywater, Dale, etc. If you check "history" on Wikipedia I (Ricimer) actually have written ''most'' of the LOTR material, and I regulary update the Battlestar Galactica pages. Weird thing is, on Wikipedia if you type in "Cylon" you get this 6th century B.C. Athenian statesman named "Cylon" with a link to "the fictional robots". I think maybe 5 people would be looking for the ancient Athenian: anyone known how to bump Galactica's Cylons ahead of them? Anyway, the hard part was actually figuring out how to get a color that was visible on a black backround; it was originally ''pink'' and looked horrible (I don't know how to change colors) and had to toy around a dozen or so times before I got a nice bluish color. ---Ricimer 8:00, 18 Aug, 2005 EDT

==12 Colonies==

Thanks on the Colony stuff, I'm still new at this.

==Nuggets==

You said:

:According to the SciFi.com official website, after the events of "The Hand of God", there are 5 surviving nuggets.

Can you tell me where to find this? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:45, 27 August 2005 (EDT)

:Go to Scifi.com's Battlestar Galactica page. Click on "Ships Gallery" go to the Viper page. Click on "CAG roster". It gives a list of ships. During the first season it was updated every episode that Vipers were lost or damaged, up until episode #10 "The Hand of God" (I actually don't think any Vipers were lost since then). Anyway, it says that there are "5 trainee pilots" right there. So I went to the "nugget" page and updated it to say that there are 5 now (Hot Dog, Kat, and three others apparently). ---Ricimer, 27 Aug, 2005 4:00 pm EDT

==Your fight with [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]]==

Gentlemen: rather than reverting each other's edits on [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] and submitting ban requests, please attempt a civilized discussion on the article's [[Talk:Cylons|talk page]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:03, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

Agreed. I will revert the Cylon page to whatever it was in the last edit before this started, then continue on the discussion page. ---Ricimer, 1 Sept, 2005

==Redirects==

Use <nowiki>#REDIRECT [[Gideon]]</nowiki>, for example. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:08, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

== Humano-Cylons ==

I was looking into your reason for removing my "Starbuck's a Cylon" bit and wanted to point out that the line that Boomer says concerning Starbuck having a child does not say that she would breed with a Cylon. Boomer states, "No, if you agreed to bear children, it’d be voluntary, maybe even set you up with someone you like." Now, if Starbuck were to be set up with a Cylon to create a hybrid and the "twelve models" bit meant twelve different Humano-Cylon models, that would be extremely limiting (after all, we've already seen the chemistry between her and Leoben. Heh.). If the Cylons were trying to set her up with Simon, for example, it seems odd how he kept pushing her buttons (the child abuse thing, the "do you see any Vipers around here" bit, etc.). If one wanted to look at Boomer's comment as a general one relating to humans, then it still seems like Starbuck would not really work in that situation, either. I think that Boomer's comment could mean that the Cylons would set her up with Anders or Lee Adama, both of whom she has feelings for (note that Boomer says "someone you like," not "someone you would like."). While a case could be made that Anders is a Cylon, his presige and career in professional Pyramid makes it likely that he would have been in the public eye for more than two years prior to the Cylon holocaust, which, as I stated, seems to be the point of origin of Cylon infiltration. However, the information on Anders is quite weak and would make such a case on either side very difficult. D'anna Biers may have been in the public eye as a reporter, though the case has been made by others that she was probably a low profile reporter prior to the attack, and therefore would not have had the exposure that Anders enjoyed. Also, if one were to make the case that Baltar was a Cylon and that he could be used, the brainscan performed on him in Home, Part II, seems like it would have shown silica pathways in his brain, as that appears to still be part of Cylon technology (according to the mini-series), so it seems unlikely that he's a Cylon, too. Well, that turned into quite the long and roundabout case. Anyhow, as Boomer, nor anyone else in the episode, seems to have stated directly that Starbuck would be made to breed with a Cylon, there is enough wiggle-room to justify that this may not have been the case. -- [[User:Linaf|Linaf]]

== Final Cut ==

Thanks for the clean-up on my addendum... was kinda klunky....
[[User:Lone Odessan|Lone Odessan]] 18:17, 11 September 2005 (EDT)

== The Great Cylon Turkey Shoot ==

You, sir, are a genius with the new battle page title. I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read your title change. The content of this page should be equally amusing. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:46, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

*No sir, I was actually quite serious. RDM was in the NROTC, and he says he has stacks of Word War II naval history books which much of the new "realistic" Battlestar Galactica is based on. My new title is a referrence to an infamous World War II battle: The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot, properly referred to as the Battle of the Philippine Sea. It was the battle that struck a death knell to the Japanese Imperial Navy: the Japanese Naval Carrier threat was elminated in this battle and they never challenged US air dominance again. While suffering relatively light losses, for every one American plane shot down, *''four''* Japanese plains were shot down, and their carriers were annihilated. The battle was incredbily lopsided. Because of this lopsidedness, I felt it appropriate to use it here, because BSG is based on a lot of WWII carrier stuff. I'll leave a note there saying it's a name we made up. By the way, we need to link these battles into the episode articles so people know to look at them (casual fans coming onto the site). Problem I have though, is that we don't know if there were Turkeys on the 12 Colonies! (see Life Forms section of "Twelve Colonies"). ---Ricimer, 17 Sept, 2005
: Still a genius move in both humor as well as military history research. I'm faintly familiar with that WWII battle: I think your name is quite appropriate. At least we know the Colonies have blackbirds. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 02:00, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

==Don't Bite the Newbies==

While [[User:Destinymaker]] familiarizes himself with [[Battlestar Wiki:Welcome, newcomers]], please give [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers|Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers]] a read. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:15, 18 September 2005 (EDT)

I appoligie, though I am a strong believer in the survival of the fittest. --Ricimer, 18 Sept, 2005

:Hey, Ricimer. You may also want to cut Sprocketeer a little slack, although in principle I agreed with some of what you said. See my edits on the Phoenix page as well. I struck your last edits only because they were too argumentative (as in fistfight) to reedit and add in the time I had. Please add them again as appropriate to the existing page information, which also has my last edits, too. (we were on the page at the same time). [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:12, 19 September 2005 (EDT)

::No, they were actually quite civil. I made a point by point rebuttal. I'll go back and see if I can iron them out a little though. Still, he should realize that that should have been put in talk. ---Ricimer, 19 Sept, 2005

==Definite Articles==
There's a [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions|place]] to throw your two cents in. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:49, 19 September 2005 (EDT)

==Kudos==
Ricimer, I just wanted to say that although I know we don't always see eye to eye on everything, I think the work you've done on the battle pages is fantastic, and I've greatly appreciated your contributions here. Thank you, and keep it up. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:40, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

==Moving Pages==
Each page should have a "move" tab right after history. If you use this instead of pasting the content into a new article, it will preserve the edit history. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:12, 30 September 2005 (EDT)

==Jzanjani==
Ricimer, please. He's ''allowed'' to do whatever he wants with his talk page. At the very worst blanking it is in bad taste. See [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Talk page|Wikipedia:Talk page]], specifically the section "Can I do whatever I want to my own user talk page?" --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:24, 6 October 2005 (EDT)

:Dear friend Ricimer,

:Since I have joined the community of Wikipedians here on battlestarwiki, it has been my misfortune to have alienated so prolific and knowledgeable a contributor as yourself. Spencerian, Farago, and Watcher have all played third parties to our heated disputes, which have occasionally - it shames me to admit it - come close to blows. Our disputes have rendered vulgar the level of discourse on this website and have proven a distraction to the practical minds which everyday toil to clarify the mysteries of Battlestar Galactica. Because we have been unable to resolve our differences, our bickering has consumed a significant portion of the efforts of our peers, and thus may delay key contributions in the future.

:Therefore, this situation can not continue. Whatever form our differences take, it is unacceptable that we continue to divert the efforts of our eloquent colleagues. Let us put the past behind us, and let us go forward hand-in-hand as we unravel the complexities of this, the greatest television series in the history of the Twelve Colonies. Ricimer, please accept my most sincere, genuine, and heartfelt [http://webspace.utexas.edu/joz59/funny_pics/fuck_soccer.jpg apology.]

::Respectfully,

:::''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]]''

::::You come here under the banner of peace, and yet you post me an "apology" link at the end connecting to a pic of a kid giving me The Finger? For this the only Verdict is Vengeance.
::::: Further posting into this is not worth my or anyone else's time. I am going to resume my normal 'rounds about the wiki without futher commentary or complaint regarding this. But you have just made an enemy for life. ---Ricimer, October 7, 2005
::::::I, for one, appreciate you standing down from this, Ricimer. The Wiki would diminish without your contributions, though I'm not taking sides. Just remember Peter's words and don't bite the newbies too hard, OK? :) I've already put my 2 cents on Jzanjani's page on '''his''' behavior, and we'll let that alone unless Joe has any further wisdom to part to either of you. I'm glad you, like many of us here, are now officially [http://www.branchbrothers.net/asshole.htm a recovering member] :) . Take my advice on not flaming, leave the vengeance thing to the writers of other fiction (life's too short to be angry) and keep up the good contribs. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:31, 7 October 2005 (EDT)
::::I think the above link is a tad off-color, otherwise fine---Ricimer

== Regarding Jzanjani ==

Ricimer,

If you haven't been made aware of it already, I have banned Jzanjani for one week starting today.

I'm letting you know that I don't blame you for any actions you took against Jzanjani -- which consisted of, mainly, following good manners in reverting Jzanjani's wipes of his own talk page while an issue was still being discussed. Were I in your position, I would've done the same myself.

While I don't say this often -- perhaps because I feel I don't ''have'' to, but maybe I should just to make it clear -- I appreciate your contributions to this Wiki. You are a valued contributor here and I appreciate your restraint in this situation. You backed down and I'm sorry that Jzanjani didn't have the same sense to follow your example. Now both of you don't have to like each other, again I don't have the right to dictate how people should behave. Not my place. However, if it invovles this Wiki, then behavior becomes my concern and I'll make sure it stops at the front door, as it were. (Or the windows, or whatever entry point one chooses to use to enter this website.)

Believe me when I say that this could have spiraled so far out of control that it might have damaged this community we've built here.

If Jzanjani turns out to be a troll -- I hope to hell he isn't, but I've been disappointed before by human nature -- then I'll ban him permanently. I've made this clear to him on his talk page, so none of this should be constitued as "talking behind Jzanjani's back".

Anyway, again, I appreciate your contributions and, if you feel you need to take a break from the Wiki yourself, feel free. Take a breather. You've earned it the honest way, as it were.

Thank you. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:37, 8 October 2005 (EDT)

== Language/Aerelon/Grace Park ==
Hello Ricimer,

I hope I'm communicating with you the right away. I'm about as nugget as nugget gets on any Wiki system, including this one!

There were a couple of changes to the entry on Grace Park and Aerelon language that I wanted to explain. First, it is true that Grace Park is a fluent speaker of Korean, but her English--either as Sharon Valerii or as herself in interviews--doesn't have any trace of a Korean accent whatsoever. I'm married to a native Korean speaker, have friends and colleagues who speak Korean either as their first or second language, and have been studying the language for a few years myself, so I'm absolutely certain that Korean has no bearing on what might or might not be considered an Aerelon accent.

On a somewhat smaller matter, there's no accepted version of English called "General English," with a capital G. I am willing to accept a lower case g, "general English," to indicate "common sense" notions about that accent/group of accents.

:Actually, I am not the one that keeps putting the Korean references on that page, and I thought it was irrelevant but people kept putting them back. The thing I had was that I don't think that Grace Park (on or off camera) really speaks with a "Canadian accent" at all; you came here after this, but I had this whole edit that said that it was just an accent that we the audience could not possibly detect but a Colonial could, but this was removed. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:44, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

== Picture Updates to Battle Pages ==
Very nice work there, Ricimer. Adds greatly to the pages majesty and atmosphere. Trying to work these pages up to quality articles, perhaps? :) [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:32, 20 October 2005 (EDT)

== Pronunciation ==

How ''do'' you pronounce "Ricimer"? Is it RIH.kih.mer, or RIH.sih.mer? Or is the stress elsehwere? I'm just curious. --[[User:Day|Day]] 18:13, 22 October 2005 (EDT)

*[[Wikipedia:Ricimer|Ricimer]] was the "shadow ruler" of the Roman Empire in it's twilight years. He ruled through a series of puppet emperors, and while himself not 'officially' controlling the state, he was the puppeteer pulling all the strings from off stage. It was not only ''possible'' for me to take this name, it was ''essential''. It's pronounced "Rih-sih-mer" (mer as in drum''mer''). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:53, 22 October 2005 (EDT)

::Hrm. If that's Latin, then I doubt it had a soft C at the time. However, neither did Caesar, so I assume you're giving the modernized/bastardized pronunciation. Interesting name story. Huh. :) --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:02, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
:::Well, Ricimer belong to a german tribe, so his name probably wasn't Latin, I would assume. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:39, 24 December 2005 (EST)

== Image Use from GalacticaStation.com-A No-No ==

Ricimer, I strongly believe that using images from Galacticastation is some violation of derivative or extended use of another person's web site without permission, since the site appears private. The web site does not have a Creative Commons License, which is the only fair-use sharealike license we're supposed to acknowledge or derive content from. (Technically, we can't share items from Wikipedia for this reason--Peter had to chastise me on this when I was updating the [[Basestar (TOS)]] page. Yes, the images and likenesses that GS gets are Universal's, but it's ''where'' you get them that matters here.

For images, you can get many excellent caps from [http://tviv.org/wiki/Main_Page TVIV], a TV episode Wiki that does have a CCL, so we can copy items from there (with appropriate credit) without issue. They have a number of BSG ep pages that are really atrocious in textual content but generally great caps... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:25, 7 November 2005 (EST)

:I don't think it matters. Screengrabs we use on this site are copyright Universal Studios anyway, and used under the aegis of fair use, not the CCL. Galacticastation has no copyright over the screen grabs they post, and certainly can't relicense them to us under the CCL (or any license, for that matter). If we're infringing anyone's copyright by using the images, it's Universal's, not Galacticastation's. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:17, 7 November 2005 (EST)

::I've got one "yea" and one "nay" on this: can Joe please give me final word on whether or not we can use GalacticaStation screencaps? Because TVIV doesn't really have many useable ones. I've tried making one or two for Seelix and Jammer, which were removed. I'm a total spaz at this; how are screencaps ''originally'' made, anyway (what do you need to do it)? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:39, 24 December 2005 (EST)

::: I've made [http://battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=Special%3AContributions&offset=0&limit=50&target=Day&namespace=6 a few] image contributions, myself, and all of them are screens I grabbed by my lonesome. As I've gone, I've kind of hammered out a system: For DVDs (I own the British version of Season 1 and the first half of Season 2 on DVD, a friend of mine will be giving me the Mini, eventually), I view them in [http://www.videolan.org/ VLC], which has a "snapshot" feature which doesn't seem to care about copy protection (or whatever it is that makes the "Print Screen" button not work). This saves them as .png. I then fire up good ol' [http://www.gimp.org/ the GIMP] and do any cropping or resizing I feel like and save 'em as a .jpg. So... That's how '''I''' do it, anyway. --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:07, 27 December 2005 (EST)

== Sacrifice ==

Dude. Re: Your edit to the Season 2 episode listing. If you put the source in there, it would carry a lot more weight. Also... You have sacrifice as 2.14... Is that a mistake, or is there some weird numbering thing I'm missing or was there a typo in the note, or... What's up with that? Lastly, you should seriously consider trimming/archiving your talk page. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:08, 21 November 2005 (EST)

== Don't Bite the Newbies (or the Vets), Part Deux ==

Hey,Ricimer. You're an excellent contributor, but lately you've had the cordial conversational replies of Doc [[Cottle]] on crystal meth--your replies are becoming flamebait. When you're replying and correcting an edit, particularly done by a new contributor (and we've had lots of them lately), PLEASE try to respond politely, or at least in a neutral voice (Peter Farago does this well, even though I can almost hear the wafts of flame from his comments to me after he concises or edits away some of my fanciful stuff). We need more contributors, and scaring them off with a bad tone is Not Good, even if you're right. Also, keep in mind that not everyone has the gift of good English writing style (or even a good grasp of ''English'', period), so look around the bad grammar and spelling and try to see their point or meaning in their contributions, concising and editing to help perfect their addition. Don't take all of this too seriously. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:05, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:Spence, this itself is kind of flamey. Ricimer has been reasonably good lately. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:10, 9 December 2005 (EST)

::Helps to have conservative ballast around--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:26, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:I stand properly chastized if my language seems gruff--but hopefully you understand my meaning. Ricimer's recent summary comments on the Recent Changes and edit histories are the things I've reacted adversely to. We're not here in person, and whether people come or go is determined by the words and phrasing they see here. If they're misinterpreted, then there's a problem. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:22, 9 December 2005 (EST)

== Quote 09/30 ==

Wish you'd posted into the talk page, rather than re-reverting, man. --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:56, 13 December 2005 (EST)

== Regarding "Coffea" ==

I have referred to a source on the talk page which disagrees with your assertion regarding "coffea." It could also be noted it doesn't pass Aspell's en_US dictionary by default. I just wanted to ensure you saw it, as I didn't want to change it back without discussing it. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:04, 29 December 2005 (EST)

:Actually, as you can see on the talk page for that article, Peter Farago and others are the ones promoting that line of thinking. I myself am ambivalent. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:06, 29 December 2005 (EST)

== Unwanted Template Lines ==

How'd ya do it? By switching Templates? --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 17:32, 29 December 2005 (EST)
:Stared at it until I saw meaning; you have to include "|Children=" and "|Cylon=", but you don't write "yes" or "no" after it; leave it blank. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:43, 29 December 2005 (EST)
::Check that out. It was hiding in plain site. Danke! --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 18:20, 29 December 2005 (EST)

::: Isn't that all outlined on the tamplate's talk page? --[[User:Day|Day]] 19:21, 29 December 2005 (EST)

:::: (shrug) I dunno. I cheated. I was being lazy and stole it from somewhere. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 19:32, 29 December 2005 (EST)

== Regarding your RfA ==

Hi Ricimer, while your RfA did not pass, I firmly and wholeheartedly believe that you are fully capable of passing the RfA, should it come up again within, say, six months. If you have any concerns, feel free to address them with Peter, myself, or any of the other major contributors. Have a happy New Year! -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:31, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:I have yet to play my trump card. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:32, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:: Should I be afraid? *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 20:21, 31 December 2005 (EST)

=="Six Months" Business==
The episode hasn't aired in my time zone yet, but thanks for jumping on that. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:14, 7 January 2006 (EST)

==troll==
Ok, I gotta ask: what does "troll" mean? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 21:58, 9 January 2006 (EST) [[User_talk:Centuri|talk]]

:Pleae refer to [[Wikipedia:Internet troll]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:00, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::I'm sorry if I jumped the gun on this one Centuri, but there is an INFAMOUS "troll" who abuses messageboads, and lately he's been going full blast with anti-Cain stuff. That is not to say that someone cannot RESPECTFULLY dislike her, as you have done. But at the time I just really thought it was another attack waiting to happen. Sorry about that. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:13, 10 January 2006 (EST)

== Battle Template ==

You're the guy who came up with this, right? Do you think that a) the thing could be made into an actual template (like the Character Data one with dissappearing/reappearing fields, etc) and b) it could be re-designed to look like the Character Data one (in terms of looking like the rest of the theme (the red/black is the default theme, isn't it?)? I don't know how these two things would be accomplished, but I thought I'd put this out there and see what you thought as far as feasability and also as far as ''should'' we do it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:00, 18 January 2006 (EST)

==Simon, Ovaries, and Executions==

IIRC Simon was talking with Six and mentioned the subject (Starbuck) being "disposed" or something to that effect. I was under the impression they were going to remove her ovaries and then kill her. --[[User:mq59|mq59]] 21:00, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Absolutely not. As you can see on the "[[Simon]]" page itself, the quote is "''If lab tests are positive, then subject will be moved to processing facility for final disposition''". Think about it; why would they kill her? As we saw in the episode, they've been keeping human women ''alive'' to be impregnanted. "Final disposition and processing" just meant hooking her up to those Farm machines and stuff. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:10, 22 January 2006 (EST)

== Pix Fix ==

Hey. Wanted to give you your propers on [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Felix_Gaeta&diff=26632&oldid=26557 this edit] as well as the similar one on the Zarek page. I was going to do the same thing, but I was headed out the door. The replaced ones were, I admit, a bit on the badly lit side of things, but, especially in the case of Gaeta, I think focus on the character's face is paramount. GLad to see you agree. Anyway, props. --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:51, 25 January 2006 (EST)

== Name Change ==
I was reading that on Wikipedia bureaucrats have the power to change user names. If you wanted to go to "Merovingian" name you might ask Joe (who is the only "bureaucrat" user around here) if he could just change it (without losing all your edit history, etc). Just a random thought. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:40, 25 January 2006 (EST)

==Frak==
However 27 January 2006, you removed the following line from [[Frak]]:
:It is a bowdlerized version of the real-life expletive "fuck".

And in the edit summary, you commented:
:Didn't we have a long drawn out discussion already about this, in which we decided not to use Frak's real world equivalent on here? Even linking to it's Wikipedia page was considered testy.

In fact, we did have exactly such a conversation on [[Talk:Frak]]. It was concluded on 1 January 2006, when Spencerian, who had disagreed with the usage of "Fuck" in the first place, wrote the following.
:Spencerian wrote: I'll count two votes to one as being outvoted, but I hold my objection to direct use of the term on a public page (Wikipedia notwithstanding). Added reference back to the page. --Spencerian 11:26, 1 January 2006 (EST)

Thus, it is not lightly that I say this to you: Would it ''kill'' you to read the talk page of an article before you knee-jerk revert an edit? My (considerable) patience with you is beginning to wear thin. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:36, 26 January 2006 (EST)

:Quite simply, I am sorry. I thought the issue was resolve that it would not be present. Obviously, I made a mistake. Farago, although warnings are nice, you seem to have become increasingly focused on behavior of mine, which although you may fine unpleasant I suppose, '''has at no time violated any of the major rules of this wiki'''. Case in point, I remember that recent occasion when a poster accused me of senselessly editing their work, and I aggressively defended myself. You chastized me and told me I was trying your patience...only for me to check the edit history and realize it was ''you'', not I, who edited it in the offending manner. I can site a couple of these. You see, I have never really be flaming by editing articles aggresively in my favor; I have moved discussion to Talk when I must. '''However''', you seem to feel that *simply having to move something to talk is offensive; that the very fact that I have PURSED a debate, in talk, is aprehensible.* -->But this is the entire idea behind a talk page (I am not referring to this incident, but the many others over the past few weeks in which you appear to have had an axe to grind with me).
:'''"Let's Cut Through It Shall We?:''' I haven't been doing anything wrong by simply ''disagreeing with you'' on talk pages. Any other minor mistakes or goofs on my part (as in the one above) you jump on me for. You appear to be trying to mount some sort of case against me, but in all honesty A) It's nothing more than other minor mistakes other users make, B) Once you correct me/reminded me of rules/etiquette I have not followed on something, you treat it as an unforgivable crime: **The fact that I agreed with your corrections shows that I am indeed behaving when this happens. What more you want, I know not.
:Although, yes, I have been outspoken in my views...besides the very fact that I've disagreed with you on certain topics, I've never broken any rules. In short,
:It is not becoming of an Administrator to threaten or imply banning, or "patience wearing thin" with a user, when I haven't repeatedly violated any major rules. Seriously: If I have done something wrong in the past few months, please try to ban me IMMEDIATELY with Joe, otherwise, stop using your newfound status to pursue and personal ''vendetta'' with me. You are browbeating me for imagined reasons on this. Either try to ban me for something, or stop making half-veiled ornery threats at action. One or the other Farago, I shall not live in fear'''. You don't seem to understand, from what I've observed in all this, that *I can and will disagree with much that goes on here* and this is *entirely healthy for the wiki because we are all still behaving responsbily*. No one currently here wants to behave irresponsibly. "With malice towards none, with charity for all". I'm sorry, but (if anyone else kept track, I dont' know) Farago has increasingly been on my case. '''Joe, or any other moderators, please, if in the past months I have done anything for which I should be outright punished, please do so now. Give me a warning. Otherwise, declare that I have a clean slate. It can no longer continue halfway like this.'''--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:57, 26 January 2006 (EST)

::I am not upset with you for disagreeing with me on talk pages, which is entirely your right. Neither does "patience wearing thin" imply that I desire to ban you, which I do not have the moral authority to do singlehandedly, even if I wished such a thing. However, I am within my rights to be angry with you for expressing a consistant pattern of hostility to new users, executing rash edits, reverting other users contributions without bothering to fully read or understand them, and doggedly pursuing a need to be at odds with me, even when we explicitly agree on certain topics.

::Here is a brief list of some of the things which have soured my attitude toward you since the beginning of this month.
::*Extremely hostile reply to [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] on [[Talk:Resurrection Ship, Part I#Analysis not Review]].
::*Completley unfounded accusations that [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] was a sockpuppet on [[Talk:Helena Cain#Why?]]
::*Your comments to [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] on [[Talk:Colonials]], which [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] admonished you for.
::*Your determination to disagree with me on [[Talk:Nacho]], after I conclusively demonstrated the point you were trying to make in the first place.
::*Reverting [[Viper 289]] without reading the talk page.
::*Hasty revision of [[Blackbird]] without bothering to determine that the context of the events mentioned.
::This list is by no means exhaustive. Note that none of these have to do with points of disagreement on factual issues, but solely concern your behavior as a member of the wiki. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:31, 26 January 2006 (EST)

::Here is a brief list of some of the times you have tried to fabricate instances in which you think I've done something since the beginning of this month.
::*"''Extremely hostile reply to [[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] on [[Talk:Resurrection Ship, Part I#Analysis not Review]].''"
:::'''You have got to be kidding me.''' SgtPayne was angry that his work was deleted, and thought I did it. I vocally defended myself, because I knew I had done no such thing. Rather than be a good administrator and arbitrate this or try to find the truth by searching through the History archive, you just accused me of being in the wrong. I then checked them ''myself'' and found that it indeed was not I, but one "Peter Farago" that had deleted SgtPayne's material without giving a reason. I ''presented'' all of this, including edit times, on the Talk Page linked above. Upon seeing them SgtPayne admitted his error in accusing me. In the end, without help from Farago, we came to a civilized reconciliation over the event. It's a dead issue at best, at worst, poor observance of your responsibilities as an Administrator.
::*"''Completley unfounded accusations that [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] was a sockpuppet on [[Talk:Helena Cain#Why?]]''"
:::'''This was already explained on that Talk page you just linked'''. I thought Centuri was indeed a sockpuppet of "Spider987", and ''infamous'' troll of all BSG websites, who I am having a protracted flame war with defending BSG. As I already stated on the above Talk page, Centuri's post sounded ''exactly'' like recent rhetoric from Spider987. And the "unfounded accusations" you accuss me of making consisted of essentially saying "I ''suspect'' that you may be a troll I know. Please be advised that this wiki is moderated and misbehavior is grounds for banning". This is more of a "stern warning of policy" than an "unfounded accusation". On top of this, it was then determined that Centuri was indeed ''not'' Spider987 or a troll, and I appologized, noting that his comments made me think he was this infamous troll. Either way, A) these "accusations" you say I made were actually non-malicious warnings about policy B) I acknowledged my error, and retracted my suspicions. This seems to show to me that you are trying to get blood from a stone; trying to find instances when I "broke a rule" in order to punish me, when in fact I just rubbed you the wrong way.
::*"''Your comments to [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] on [[Talk:Colonials]], which [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] admonished you for.''"
:::'''You consider a stern warning to be misbehavior?" I believe the exact thing I said was "Watch that attitude Troyian. Even I defer to consensus. While I'm on the subject, why haven't you given us any citations for that SkyOne information you gave before? This isn't earning you brownie points, as it were". Since when is saying "this isn't winning brownie points"? grounds of "misbehavior"? Nextly, '''even Troyian himself admitted that it wasn't the best sourced information'''; he admitted that the site no longer existed, but wanted to log this (questionable; though that's not a reflection of him) information from SkyOne for the sake of completeness. He answered the question. All's right with the world. And mild warnings such as this, in mild language, suddenly count as highly offensive behavior to you? Yikes.
::*"''Your determination to disagree with me on [[Talk:Nacho]], after I conclusively demonstrated the point you were trying to make in the first place.''"
:::'''You Conceded this point to me.''' Exactly 4 minutes after making this list against me, you moved "Nacho" to "[[Narcho]]". On January 27th, at 04:32 you made this list, and at 04:36 (check history) you moved the article. '''And now, you consider "determination to disagree", on a ''Discussion page'', with you to be anathema and intolerable?''' At BSGwiki, we all often debate over points. But especially on a Discussion page, something as simple as "I think it's spelled one way, you a different way" '''is not an offensive act; that's why it's called a "Discussion page". You seem more concerned, rather, driven to make this a point where I "misbehaved" because I happened to disagree with you. You are an Administrator and should be more impartial than this when executing your power. On top of this, '''No, you were not trying to "demonstrateing" the point you (Ricimer) made.''' You said you thought his name was "Nacho", I said I thought it was "Narcho"....how can opposing views be any more straightfoward than that? And yet now you claim to have all of a sudden been "conclusivly demonstrating the same point" the whole time? I don't know what you're doing now. But it was a normal, every day debate, and you have conceded it. So why is it in a list of things I've done that were supposedly offensive?
::*"''Reverting [[Viper 289]] without reading the talk page.''"
:::I did. I thought we should make a note in the "Notes" section that it **MIGHT** be the same Viper, just a number mistake, instead of burying this SPECULATION on the talk page. Either way, I put it in the Notes section, not the main body text, and I made it ''tentative''.
::*"''Hasty revision of [[Blackbird]] without bothering to determine that the context of the events mentioned.''"
:::I have, and the edit I deleted (see "Blackbird" history) were just speculation that Starbuck sending a signal in the Blackbird is what made it visible; RDM's podcast seems to imply it was actually the engines, so I removed the comment. Again, I thought he was referring to the events of Res Ship II, and once I REALIZED my error, I stopped pursuing it, but removed it ''again'' because I felt that the scene at the beginning of Res Ship I didn't prove this. Again, you're just looking for excuses to punish me for exaggerated offenses.
::This list is by no means exhaustive. There were other times that you've tried to pounce on my for non-existant examples of "bad behavior". Note that few of these have to do with points of disagreement on factual issues (or they are rooted in them), but solely concern your behavior as a Administrator of the wiki. None of these is grounds for being considered "bad behavior"; do you have any that are more sterling instances (specific examples) to cite? Otherwise...--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:31, 27 January 2006 (EST)

:::: I am somewhat loath to wade in, here, but I think someone not so personally invested in this thing might be a good thing. I'd like to note (though I've not been, as Ricimer says, keeping score) that I've not seen Peter mention bad behavior (as far as policy goes) or any kind of official action (a.k.a. punishment). I get the impression that Peter is not speaking as an Admin in this case, but that he is speaking as a human being (which one does not cease to be when one becomes an Admin) who is annoyed. So, Ricimer, please try to calm down and try to see that you're not being threatened with banning, here. He's asking you to take a bit more care in edits, from what I can tell.

:::: Now, I may weaken my point with Ricimer by saying this next bit, but I think it is important to show that Peter is not alone in his impression. Only, really, since the first of the year have I noticed this, but Ricimer's comments on edits seem to be very, well, snippy. One, in particular, that I felt a very heavily implied "''moron''" after was [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Margaret_Edmonson&diff=prev&oldid=26920 this one], but its not the only one. This is, I think, another case of editing without taking a moment to think. That's a perfectly okay mistake to make every so often, but this month, I feel like Ricimer has been doing it more than he did before. These rash edits paired with condecending comments just make people feel bad and while that's not against any policy, I still think it should be discouraged. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:49, 27 January 2006 (EST)

:::::Again I'm a little confused, not mad, just that I am aware that I have made several curt edits in the past (I can't think of any specific ones right now), but the one you cited above is really probably one of the ''least'' "sharp" ones. Someone wanted to say that "Racetrack puts personal beliefs above duty", and my edit comment was "When has she ever done that?" I meant that as an actual question: When has she ever done that? Then someone pointed out the events of "Resistance", and I realized it actually did sort of fit. But that wasn't a sharp response or anything, I mean, that was an actual "question". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 03:02, 27 January 2006 (EST)

:::: To reiterate Day's post: I certainly don't mean to barge in. That said, I think it's important for ''everyone'' on the wiki to remember that, although we may know ''exactly'' what we mean when we type a comment, the percieved meaning by the reader is often entirely different. So much of our communication is non-verbal that, when the only tool we have to advance our point of view is our word choice, we ''need'' to choose every word very carefully. Ricimer's point about Racetrack is a textbook example of how good intentions can get mangled and misinterpreted when we don't have the visual and aural cues we usually rely upon to understand the speaker. Further, wikis can make things even more complicated, because the reasons behind moving pages and re-instituting edits are often complicated, difficult to explain, and many users do not provide adequate explanations: besides, being right is worth little if no one knows why.

:::: Of course, the ideal solution to a disagreement like this is simple: instead of trading barbs through a text-only medium, I think it might really help if you meet with Peter in a voice chat program to sort things out, if you think that's a good idea. Peter is a very concientious admin, and you're a valuable contributor to this wiki, so it would be a terrible shame if this caused either one of you to stop editing pages. I am new at this whole thing, so don't be too harsh on me if I'm crossing a line by posting this, but I think this just is a good ol' fashioned misunderstanding. Enjoy the show tonight! --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 20:27, 27 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Epiphanies/Archive 1

2006-01-26T00:22:24Z

Drumstick: /* Cancer Therapy */

I got the title of episode 2.12 from: [http://www.galacticastation.com/Galactica%20Station/episodes/Ep%20header%20img/S2/s2guide.htm Galactica Station]. I'd put the info in an Episode Guide Template but have yet to figure it out. Please if anyone doesn't mind teaching me how to use templates I'd like to know. Please leave the advice on my talk page.--Zareck Rocks 01:40, 18 September 2005 (EDT)
:Looks fascinating, Z. I was wondering if they would really let Roslin's character just die off when she's hitting her stride...at the same time, I was hoping they wouldn't, since cancer is cancer and, when as nasty as hers, is a fatal thing. But, the Cylons are good at bioengineering, so I can swallow this--to a point. Baltar's fix would have to rebuild damaged areas with good cells as well as destroying bad cells. Hey, I'm no doctor, but that's gotta hurt somehow. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:59, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
::Current speculation is that her disease is delayed, not cured, and that she'll again be near death by the end of the season. I don't have any source on that though. The notion of the amazing Dr. Baltar discovering a ''cure for cancer'' under the circumstances of the fleet is faintly ridiculous to me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:23, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
:: I wouldn't be surprised if there were some nasty side effects from whatever treatment Baltar (or whomever) devised. The whole "we have a cure for cancer" thing would go outside the boundaries of believability and realism, which Moore and crew are aiming for. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:11, 22 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I'll agree that an outright cure for cancer is very implausible considering all the conditions the fleet is under. It would also undermine the whole prophecy that it seems that the fleet is following. Yes Cylon biotech is advanced, but the colonials barely understand it at all. I could accept them finding a treatment that buys Roslin more time, but only as long as it's clear that it isn't a permament cure. --[[User:Wingsandsword|Wingsandsword]] 12:32, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

::: I'd say that was resolved, although it was a bit of a stretch...[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 23:18, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::: Rather eloquently stretched, at that. Seems like Cylon blood is a rather hardcore Chemo series, killing off the currently detectable malignancies. The root cause of the cancer is most likely still there, and working to re-proliferate through Roslin's system. As soon as the Cylon blood is processed and removed from her bloodstream, it should more than likely come back in full force (Which, unless I'm mistaken, takes roughly 120 days). --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 23:48, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: I put removed from her system, and not a cure on the page.--[[User:Shane|Shane]] 23:32, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: After listening to Ron Moore's blog, he is mentioning that Laura's character is too important for him to put on the sidelines for an illness. His initial plan was that she got weaker throughout the whole series, but felt that he didn't want her stuck in a hospital chair or whatnot. Granted the whole religious thing they say, "is that a dying leader will lead the people to salvation" is still up in the air, and I'm interested in seeing where they take it, if anywhere. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 14:20, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::: I haven't listened to the blog yet, but is it conceivable that the Cylon blood treatment itself might sicken/kill Roslin again in the long run? Perhaps the cancer is permanently gone, as was suggested by Doc Cottle. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 14:46, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:::: I think that Ron Moore panicked with the whole cancer thing. My grandmother had cancer for 10 years before it finally took her life and it was only in the last 6 months that she became seriously incapacitated, and that was because it did go to her brain. Prior, she had it in both breasts and her lungs but with surgery and treatment was able to function normally. Now, I understand that Roslin doesn't have the benefit of treatment and surgery due to the circumstances, but this could have played out a lot longer without what he feared of her being invalid. But consequently, because cancer is not a virus but a deformation inherent to the individual, I can definitely see complications later on as a result of the cylon blood. Additionally, another issue I have is how they make Baltar to be a "General" Scientist when it was obvious that he was a computer scientist who wrote highly elaborate computer programs. Now they have him curing cancer. --[[User:straycat0|straycat0]] 10:46, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::: I don't have so much of a problem with Baltar knowing so much about science. It's true that it would lean somewhat towards a reviled science-fiction stereotype for him to be able to solve a problem about anything, but it's been established since very early on in the first season that Baltar is the resident Cylon expert, and this episode is simply a continuation of that role. He may have written computer programs too, but lots of scientists I know are adept at many forms of science--besides, it's all sort of interconnected. We also don't really see him talking much about physics (except that comment about enthalpy when blowing up the tylium refinery in "Hand of God," but every biochemist worth his salt would probably understand enthalpy anyway), so he seems confined to bio. And so long as he's not reconfiguring the plasma manifolds to increase the range of the FTL jumps or anything like that, I'll be okay. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 15:23, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Well, he's had six months to brush up on his cylon biology. I seriously doubt anyone's been needing him to write computer programs lately. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:36, 22 January 2006 (EST)

When Roslin wakes up after being injected with the Cylon blood, she points to Baltar and mumbles something. What did she say? Was it "You're the father."? I didn't quite catch it, because my neighbours decided to test their new sound system with "The Ace of Spades" at that exact moment! (May they rot in hell!) --Axminster 23 January 2006

:I wondered about that myself, so when it replayed again later that night, I muted it and let the closed caption run. All she said was "Dr. Baltar?". It could be wrong, though. --Jasonbondshow 25 January 2006

==Starbuck's Viper==
Can anyone get a look at the tail number on Starbuck's viper in the opening? It looks like 8757 to me, but it could also be the previously identified [[Viper 8737]]. She identifies herself with the three digit number 049. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:32, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:I'll check, I need to get back to my Viper Cataloguing project. First, though, I need to go through all the edits made while I couldn't access the page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:58, 21 January 2006 (EST)

==And By the Way==
I know this isn't really a discussion forum, but am I the only one who thought that this episode ''really sucked''? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:45, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:I haven't watched it yet; have it on tape. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:20, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:Thanks mostly to Roslin's miracle cure, but also to Helo and Tyrol back to work without even a whisper of a lesser charge/punishment against them, plus the sudden jump to six months after the Attack, I agree with you, Peter Farago. The only time I ever voted 2/10 on the offical website bulletin board. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 18:35, 21 January 2006 (EST).

:It certainly had some bad ''plot'' points, all of which have been stated. And I still think it would have been possible to do a cure without making it so contrived--of course it had to happen, but I don't know if it should have been the centerpiece of an episode, or at the very least needed to be resolved in the last five minutes of one. But the stuff with Baltar running around on Cloud 9 and drawing cell diagrams in his crazy notepad was pretty cool, and I loved the bit with Adar in Roslin's flashbacks. Besides, the episode was well written overall, especially the scene with Helo and Adama in the hallway. Does this excuse bad plot points that fly in the face of continuity and practically insult our intelligence? Certainly not. But I don't know if it ''sucked''. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 20:07, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:''THANK YOU!'' Somebody finally said it. Yes, Peter. This was bad. A big part of BG's allure is it's deft sidestepping of expected plot devices and its commitment to fashion realistic situations. This thing (Uatu shakes his head) was drenched in deus et machina. I, for one, don't believe Roslin should have been cured -- ''ever''. I like the character but I liked my real life friend who died also. I'm also getting a little tired of the Colonials winning so many battles against a supposedly superior enemy. It's high time, in my opinion, for the fleet to get one good, solid a** kicking. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 22:48, 21 January 2006 (EST)

: I think there was a lot of hooplah over this episode, mainly because people claimed we would get to meet the person Six was talking to after Baltar left. However, yes, this episode was a downer. It wasn't a bad 45 minutes of television -- in comparison to wha t is out there in the cesspool of American television -- but it wasn't the best. Actually, I think much of the Cylon peace group plot line just happened far too quickly for my taste. Also, why was Sharon stupid enough to smash her head into the glass in her cell? (Also, what is the idea of putting glass inside the cell and putting the bars on the side of the observation corridor? Gee, must be a Jammer design...) Hopefully we don't see the like of ''Epiphanies'' again... Battlestar is just too good to go down to that level. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I had to go one step further and detail ''why'' the show sucked in the Analysis section. Do add anything else you saw as well. The Helo/Tyrol punishment didn't bother me (else, Tigh would be in irons, too ([[Resistance]])). Things were wrapped up far too quickly. And there's NO WAY that Gina can hide on that ship or be supported like that. At least, I can hardly believe it. And here she was with glasses on. For what? So her "secret identity" would be hidden? Gods...and since I was late to see it aired, I actually ''bought'' this one from iTunes. Oh, well. As Joe, said, the worst of "Battlestar" is better than other show's supposed best. Still, to take a joke from Emo Phillips: If we watched this episode while flying on an airliner, we would have to open a window to equalize the suckage. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:21, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:LOL! Oh the pain! --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:17, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Guys, other than the six months issue (which actually ''started'' in Resurrection Ship, Part I), From what I've heard this isn't all that bad. Good points though Farago. I'm going to see the episode monday night when it reruns, I'd just like to point out that '''I am a genetics major''', and I'm going to pause on all of Baltar's notes to do a full write up of what exactly he's talking about, whether it's feasible/coherent with current works, etc. etc. More to follow. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:03, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::I only caught acts II & III of the episode, and yes, it's a pretty incredible "cure". As a Medical Technology graduate, I'm also going to be reviewing how the cylon cells are able to remove the cells so efficiently. I'm also curious after her seizure and stoppage how Laura was able to start back up again (without assistance). Curiouser and curiouser... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 15:41, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::While admittedly good, none of the above points were mine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:12, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:After the wonderful Resurrection Ship series, it is almost impossible to follow up with equal quality. I think some of the essential premises of this episode were good - militant peace movement, Roslin's rash decisions in the face of death and subsequent resurgence by cylon blood, Baltar being the consummate scientist always doodingly and 'tinkering', Gina finding a hiding place among the peace movement - I think this episode failed more in the execution of these plot premises. Ron Moore sometimes gets too much "Oh, nobody cares about the tech talk. Let's just tell the story" which does make BSG sooo much better than any other scifi, but here he went too far. It is obvious this episode was designed purely to move the story along and pave the way for future episodes, so I enjoyed watching it for that even while I was growning from the inconsistencies. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 11:10, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:I enjoyed it, but that could be because I was so happy to have a new episode of BSG on my birthday (1/20 btw). --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 12:21, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:Yeah I agree it wasn't the best episode, but it could have been worse, especially if it was another series trying to do the same thing. Although Ron Moore didn't mention it, do you think the episode was one of those ones made to save on budget due to Ressurrection and later episodes? I just think the episode was trying to cover too much in too little time and so things, in this case being Roslin's cancer, ended up being rushed. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 18:41, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:Oh, and I got to say that one upside neat thing of this episode was the machine shop scene because it was so very...un-scifi and very real-world.[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 16:25, 23 January 2006 (EST)

==Cancer Therapy==
I've studied some immunology, so I'm just going to talk briefly about this Cylon Blood business.

*There are two ways to attack a cancer cell.
**Chemotherapy, radiation therapy, and nucleoside analogues specifically target cells that are dividing very quickly. This will generally include cancerous growths, but will also target cells that are rapidly dividing by nature, such as hair.
**The body also maintains a set of [[Wikipedia:Cytotoxic T cell|Cytotoxic T cell]]s. These are basically trained to recognize what the antigens of a "normal" body cell looks like, and, if it finds those normal antigens in combination with foreign antigens (either viral or cancerous in nature), signal the cell to commit [[Wikipedia:Apoptosis|Apoptosis]]

*Presumably, the Cylon fetus's blood's lack of "antigens" meant that it could be given to Roslin without inducing [[Wikipedia:Transplant rejection|Transplant rejection]].
**It should be noted that normal, O-type human blood shares this quality (at least as far as red blood cells are concerned).
**Complete lack of antigens on a cell, however, is a biological absurdity.

*Therefore, it seems as though Baltar made two assumptions: That the cylon immune system was more "robust" than a normal human's, and that (based on the lack of antigens) it could be transplanted or donated to Roslin, where the cylon immune cells would root out her disease.
**However, for the reasons above, immune cells which specifically target cancer must be "trained" by exposure to non-cancerous body cells. The Cylon cells would have no knowlege of what Roslin's non-cancerous cells were supposed to look like, so it wouldn't be able to distinguish them from the cancerous ones.
**Alternatively, if it identified cancer cells based on their replication rate, she should suffer side effects comparable to a severe round of chemotherapy or radiation therapy immediately afterwards.

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:55, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Do add your knowledge to the renamed [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] page..it will help my layman's knowledge a lot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:51, 22 January 2006 (EST)

I have to finish the podcast for Epiphanies. However, RDM states at point point that the finished episode is edited down to just say "the baby's blood", but the scenes they cut clearly explain he's using it's fetal blood STEM CELLS, and then gives a SCIENTIFIC explanation of what this will actually do (I haven't heard the whole thing). However, he thought something like the audience wouldn't understand it, he's afraid of what SOUNDS like technobabble (even when it's entirely accurate; remember how Star Trek: Voyager became obsessed with giving really accurate, but really longwinded science explanations?), and they were running low on time, etc. etc. I hope this info is still "canonical". I need to check on this. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:30, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:He says they contemplated it in the writer's room, but the idea didn't survive to filming. In any case, it still makes just as little sense. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::It's nice to hear that he may have been thinking of a plausable explanation, but we really can only go by what's on screen. We can't be sure something is cannon unless we see it, right? [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

==Guest Stars==
I don't remember Hot Dog being in this episode. What did he do? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:20, 24 January 2006 (EST)

*I have a tape so I copied the credits from the episode into the article. It's what they said on screen. I was a little confused, but the way I see it, he's usually in the backround without lines in a lot of episodes, or maybe a minor 20 second scene was cut. Happens all the time. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:36, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== Bomb Use Spoiler ==

Ricimer, could you cite the spoiler source you have in that the bomb does function as a nuclear device and is detonated? I decided to remove your spoiltext since it was unsourced and I could find no mention of the bomb's use on our future episode pages. The magnitude of a nuke blowing up a ship in the Fleet would cause catastrophic damage to many, many ships...although I can see Pegasus meeting its end that way... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:44, 24 January 2006 (EST)

* It was mentioned at the end of the podcast that the bomb story-line would come to a head in the final two episodes of this season. -- [[User:rexpop|rexpop]] 18:50, 24 January 2006 (EST)

Science in the Re-imagined Series

2006-01-22T22:39:51Z

Drumstick: /* The Cancer Cure of Laura Roslin */

The [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|re-imagined Series]] thrives on concentration of its story and the characters that develop it, rather than attempting to awe its audience by futuristic technology. Nevertheless, ''Battlestar Galactica'' is still a science-fiction program and attempts to adhere to Einsteinian, Euclidian and Newtonian principles as we know them here on the real-world Earth when ships, characters, and events require a particular physical result in, say, a space battle, in a medical complication, or when travelling from place to place.

This article summarizes or notes information about scientific objects and events in the [[Miniseries]] and Regular Series and attempts to draw more information, cite problems or contraditions, or conclusions of the scientiic principles revealed as part of the series' plot. In short, this article analyzes ''Battlestar Galactica's'' "[[technobabble]]" and determines how much of it is accurate, interesting, or just plain made-up.

===Why Gaeta Will Never be "Spock"===

The writers intentionally avoid having characters discuss in depth any super-technical particulars in the Regular Series. This is logical in that, if the characters ''know'' that they can or cannot reach a particular location (they can see their own displays), there's no practical reason for the characters to discuss it amongst themselves (and therefore to us); it would be meaningless dialogue in a show that is heavily supported by the personalities of the characters (and is limited in time to tell viewers a story). The iracible Colonel [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] would look at Lieutenant [[Gaeta]] as if he grew a third eye in his forehead if Gaeta started to spout off the precise distances and time necessary for ''Galactica'' to travel from place to place. Talking about such minutae in BSG is just not in character.

Still, the show gives us clues about the solar system of the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]] to note some interesting facts.

==Distances and Speeds in the Mini-Series==

* '''''Battlestar ''Galactica'' was approximately 335,540,340 miles from one of the Colonies, ostensibly [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], at the start of the [[Mini-Series]].'''''

:To reach this number, we needed clues from [[Billy Keikeya]], onboard ''[[Colonial Heavy 798]]'', enroute to the battlestar for its decommissioning ceremony. In the Mini-Series, Billy tells [[Laura Roslin]] that he had sent a copy of her ceremony speech to President [[Adar (RDM)|Adar]] for review, but warns that there is a time delay of 30 minutes between ''Galactica'' and (ostensibly) Adar's location. Adar's actual location was never specified in the show, but we may make an educated presumption that the President resided on Caprica as that appeared to be the seat of the Colonial [[Government]] {{ref|Jack}}.

:We know that ''Battlestar Galactica's'' universe sticks to the same speed of light constant as real-world Earth (and the universe, of course): 186,282 miles per second. If President Adar sent a [[wireless]] message from Caprica to ''Galactica'' in an attempt to correct Roslin's speech, how long would it take the message to get there? Billy gives this answer: 30 minutes. This gives the answer we need if we use the equation that ''distance=speed x time'':

:::(3 x 10^8) ''(the speed of light in meters/sec)'' x 1800 ''(number of seconds in 30 minutes)'' = 5.4 x 10^11 meters

:Simplfied, the wireless message travels over 335.5 million miles in 30 minutes to ''Galactica.''

* '''''Colonial Heavy 798'' is travelling at a sublight speed of over 61,000,000 miles per hour to get to ''Galactica'' for the decommissioning ceremony.'''''

:Right after Billy Keikeya's conversation to Laura Roslin on her speech, we overhear the captain of ''Colonial Heavy 798'' on the public address intercom of the [[Intersun|starliner]], telling the passengers how long their trip to ''Galactica'' will take: 5.5 hours. Assuming that the starliner has just left the neighboring space of Caprica and has reached its cruising speed, and given that we know ''Galactica's'' distance from Caprica, we can determine ''Colonial Heavy 798's'' cruising speed with the same formula as above, now adjusted to calculate speed:

:::540000000000 ''(the speed of light in meters/sec)'' / 19800 ''(the number of seconds in 5.5 hours)'' =
:::27272727.28 meters/sec

:While ''Colonial Heavy 798'' is making a very serious clip across space at 61, 009, 090 miles per hour on its [[sublight]] engines, this is only approximately 11 percent of the speed of light, so passenger liners do well in getting from place to place, or colony to colony. To give a real-world comparison, ''Colonial Heavy 798'' could fly from our sun to the Earth in about 90 minutes. The light from the sun takes only 8 minutes to arrive on the Earth's surface.

==Artificial Gravity==

''(Much of this topic is derived from information in an article on subject on [[Wikipedia:Artificial Gravity|Wikipedia]]. Not all of ''Battlestar Wiki's'' contributors are rocket scientists.)''

Of course, it's very practical for humans, who evolved in gravity, to have it aboard their ships. Cinematically, it also makes it much easier to keep production costs down by not having to simulate weightlessness.

That doesn't mean we can let the [[Colonial Fleet]] get away with just having artificial gravity without some explanation, especially given [[Ron D. Moore]]'s [[Naturalistic science fiction|realistic science fiction]] principles of his show. From a science fiction perspective, this has always been the hardest "technology" to explain away in a show. Most shows don't even bother unless the temporary loss of artificial gravity would make a good plot complication.

From what our scientists have theorized here on the real-world Earth, you can generate gravity from several ideas:

* ''Rotation of the spacecraft'' to generate centrifugal forces within a spacecraft.
:Remember the playground merry-go-rounds of your youth? Same principle. In fact, one of the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]]'s ships uses this form of artificial gravity when it feels like it: the [[Space Park]]. Viewers can get a good view of this ship in motion when the Fleet leaves [[Ragnar Anchorage]] in the Mini-Series.
* ''Keeping the ship at constant acceleration'', with the crew standing in the opposite direction of acceleration.
:Same principle that every astronaut experiences as their rocket launches into space and accelerates. In this principle, you won't take your hands off the throttle, keeping the ship's engines on at all times.
* ''Place something with a lot of mass'' within your ship.
:This isn't artificial gravity, but the real thing. But there is the matter of the energies required to move your ship, the large gravity well that wants to attract other objects into your ship's general direction, and the shape of your ship. Gravity just '''works''', pulling from every direction, so you would need a round ship to keep from strange changes in gravity aboard a ship. Worst of all, the amount of fuel needed to move a ship with a local mass concentration would be really, really high.
* ''Use tidal forces''.
:Stretch a tether with a small mass between a large gravity source and the ship you want. Cheap, fuel-free, and reliable. There's the matter of actually being able to travel somewhere besides planetary orbit without losing gravity, however.
* ''Fake gravity by using another classic force, magnetism''.
:The big term for this is [[Wikipedia:Diamagnetism|diamagnetism]], or, more specificially for this application, ''diamagnetic levitation''. Based on the technologies we've seen in the Re-imagined Series (such as their use of magnetism for landing and launching Vipers){{ref|vipers}}, this principle has the most viability, but it also fraught with huge problems in application.
:''Everything'' has a magnetic attraction, but most objects (a human body included) has so little magnetism that we don't really think about it. This principle could be used to force ''everything'' in a particular direction. But, first off, using magnets together usually makes objects ''float'' between them, not drop, so you have to figure out how to angle things for the proper effect. Scientists here on Earth have actually [http://www.hfml.science.ru.nl/levitate.html levitated a frog at a force of 1''g'' ] (Earth's gravity), but it took a massive amount of cryogeneically frozen hardware to do it, and that was using the magnet to push ''away'' from Earth's gravity, not push the object ''down''. Also, high magnetic field concentrations [http://star-www.st-and.ac.uk/~jrs/safety/magnetic.html are probably not very healthy]] in the long term.

If the writers have to dive back into the old fictionalized bag of tricks, you could consider these fanciful notions for keeping your deck crews on the deck:

* ''Use rotational gravity.''
:This variation of centrifugal gravity generation has been done in the movie ''2001: A Space Odyssey'' (the crew compartment inside the ''Discovery'' spun) and the venerable TV show "[[Wikipedia:Babylon 5|Babylon 5]]" (the cylindrical space station spun on its longitudinal axis).

* ''Simulate gravity with force fields.''
:The central spaceship in the TV show "[[Wikipedia:Andromeda|Andromeda]]" uses "gravity generators". The "Star Trek" saga has a similar idea. This concept seems also to be a slap in the face of realistic SF concepts since it's a completely fanciful concept with no basis in scientific plausibilty at present.

So, there are no definitive answers to this issue, and the concept of artificial gravity in the show has yet to be explained anytime soon by the writers. Maybe a Raptor will lose their gravity on a mission one day in an episode, and the writers will have to have the characters [[Frak|curse]] about the issue.

==Light-speed Travel==

The good news is that, from a theoretical point of view, the Re-imagined Series has this covered well by the use of ''wormhole'' theory, instead of grandiose methods such as in "Star Trek", through the use of fantastic energies. For more detail on how '''Jumps''' work and how the Colonial's manner of apparent faster-than-light travel differs from the more fanciful non-Einsteinian "warp drive" technology in "Star Trek", see the article on [[FTL|Faster Than Light travel.]]

===Why Didn't ''Colonial Heavy 798'' simply Jump to ''Galactica''?===

In the Miniseries, the starliner known as ''Colonial Heavy 798'' took its time and traveled 5.5 hours at sublight speeds to get to battlestar ''Galactica.'' Why did the starliner take its sweet time? Why didn't they simply Jump to ''Galactica'' to save time?

There are several possibilities.

* '''Discomfort.''' [[FTL]] travel is a very disconcerting sensation to most humans. Even trained military staff such as [[Cally]] hated the sensation caused by wormhole travel. And, if the Colonies are full of lawyers as the real-world Earth is, think of the litigation created by people who aren't prepared for Jumping, and sue the starliners. Starliners would rather not Jump if they can help it, and probably explicitly warn travelers when they book a Jumping flight.
* '''Scheduling.''' ''Galactica's'' decommissioning ceremonies were for a specific time and date. While [[Intersun]] could have created an FTL flight, passengers still need time (mentally or physically) to prepare for their trip. As humans without instantaneous travel ability, we may not realize that such travel may create issues of logistics for passengers (many who are late or procrastinate) who actually ''anticipate'' that they will get 5 hours to plan for their event, or to just sleep.
* '''Flight rules or protocol.''' It may be against Colonial flight protocols for any non-military vessel to Jump to the adjoining space of a Colonial Fleet vessel. This makes the most sense because ships such as battlestars are ''always'' on the lookout for a sudden appearance of any ship that approaches them; they ''are'' a warship, after all. An incident where Vipers are scrambled from a battlestar after a civilian ship Jumps too closely would be like a Lear Jet flying too closely to a United States aircraft carrier. If ''Colonial Heavy 798'' were to Jump straight to the battlestar, all kinds of alarms would go off in [[CIC]] until the battlestar could verify the incoming vessel was friendly. And, given that [[Tom Zarek|terrorism existed]] in the Colonies, even a "friendly" vessel may not be necessarily non-hostile (remember the events of September 11, 2001).

==The Tylium Question==

[[Tylium]] is a curious substance in the universe where the Twelve Colonies resides. Used by both Colonials and their foes, tylium has the properties of a mineral or fossil fuel in as that the substance is mined and refined. Like some fossil fuels, tylium isn't useable until refined. While the ore can't be detonated, its precursor (similar to refined crude oil before its refinement into gasoline and other products) is very explosive. The fuel itself isn't as explosive as precursor, however.

So, is tylium a made-up substance or would it have a counterpart or comparative substance to the elements we know of here on the real-world Earth?

One speculation is that tylium can possibly be similar to Helium-3{{ref|helium3}}. Helium-3 is a primordial component in the Earth's crust, is deposited via solar wind on moons and asteroids. But, while helium-3 has potention as an energy source, the amount of energy needed to ignite it (fusion) would be more than the energy it would expel for use as an energy by-product.

There is a problem with this speculation in that helium-3 is a gas, not a mineral or solid element. A tylium counterpart should be a solid, non-radioactive, and likely non-organic substance. Coal would fit the tylium concept were it not a fossil fuel, which would suggest that life forms existed and died on the celestial bodies where the substance is mined. Perhaps another element from the Periodic Table could be a counterpart of tylium.

==The Cancer Cure of Laura Roslin==

''This section was originally written from a layman's perspective. As such, the information in this section is speculative and with little professional background. Battlestar Wikipedians with more experience and training in biology, medical science, and genetics are strongly encouraged to correct and expand on this section.''

The episode "[[Epiphanies]]" showed dying President [[Laura Roslin]] receiving the fetal blood from [[Sharon Valerii]]'s and [[Helo]]'s child, which dramatically annihilated the [[Wikipedia:Cancer|breast cancer]] and its subsequent metastasis (spreading) that almost kills Roslin.

The believability of this event is low given that viewers have seen, from the first moment we meet the character of Laura Roslin, that cancer in the Twelve Colonies is just as dire as it is on the real-world Earth.

Killing cancer cells is not inherently a problem in treatment. But killing cancer growths without damaging healthy tissue is the larger issue. As cancer spreads and grows, it infests itself in healthy tissue where surgery is made impossible (brain cancer is commonly inoperable because of the likelihood of damage to critical areas of the brain). Likewise, chemotherapy is less invasive, but can also leave nasty changes to body chemistry and highly undesireable side effects. Roslin mentions that her mother also had breast cancer that she had treated with [[diloxin]] therapy, which appears to be a form of chemotherapy. Roslin declined this treatment in favor of [[Chamalla]] extract, a treatment that led to [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I|interesting side effects]], but ultimately failed in slowing or stopping her cancer (as Dr. [[Cottle]] predicted).

The cancer cure seen in "Epiphanies" appeared to accomplish the following abiliities:

*Destroyed all cancerous and pre-cancerous cells in the bloodstream (to prevent relapsing)
*Destroyed all cancer cells in organ tissue while repairing damage to organs with tumors or other infection
*Differentiated between the host's healthy cells and the cancerous cells
*Be effective with a relatively small dose, since fetal blood volume is low and cannot be taken in large amounts
*Left few or no immediate side-effects

There could be some logic to the use of the Cylon hybrid fetal blood, but this requires some stretching of the imagination and perhaps genetics.

*Earth science has confirmed that [[Wikipedia:Stem cells|stem cells]], undifferentiated cells found in fetal tissue that change into any needed organ or body part, can be used to aid in cellular repair.
*Despite their appearance, [[Humano-Cylon|humanoid Cylon agents]] are not human, but created. Perhaps in their creation, Cylons designed the humanoid bodies to fight off or identify genetic malfunctions immediately, or may be created without any of the historic genetic abnormalities found in humans that could trigger cancer or other diseases.

==Sources==
#{{note|Jack}} In an early draft of the Mini-Series script, Laura speaks by [[wireless]] to "Jack", a fellow secretary or government official. Jack tells Laura of the devastation of Caprica City and Adar's speculated whereabouts and actions. The aired Mini-Series has this scene and does not give Jack's location, but the early draft indicates that Jack is very close to, or in Caprica City.
#{{note|vipers}} In the [[Mini-Series]], viewers see a preflight checkout and launch of the fighters. For launch, the [[Launch tubes|launch tube]] uses a magnetic catapult ("magcat") to hurl the Viper out. On landing, either magnetism or some blend of artificial gravity pulls Vipers to rest on the deck of the [[Flight pod|flight pod]]. This force doesn't appear to be very strong; note the bouncing that the fighters do as their landing skids hit the landing deck while they retreat to ''Galactica'' as it prepares to Jump from Ragnar Anchorage at the conclusion of the Mini-Series.
#{{note|helium3}} See [[Wikipedia:Helium-3|Wikipedia's article on Helium-3]] and [http://www.asi.org/adb/02/09/he3-intro.html this article]] by a private firm on the concept.

==See Also==

[[Naturalistic science fiction]]

[[FTL]]

[[Sublight Propulsion]]

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Technology]]
[[Category:Terminology]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Timeline (RDM)/Archive5

2006-01-22T22:37:03Z

Drumstick: /* 6 months? */

Only twelve days between Caprica Boomer's conception and morning sickness? That put's it at the fourth week, which is pretty much before she notices she is late. Sounds like a possible plot hole. Perhaps the caprica segments were not at the same time as the main fleet episodes or Cylon physilology makes them super sensitive to morning sickness. --[[User:Shemnon|Shemnon]] 18:35, 28 Jul 2005 (EDT)

:In fact, the times used here are taken from the captions introducing the Caprica sections in each episode, so a discrepancy is not possible. I too find the interval implausibly short, but that's just how it is, I guess. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:18, 29 Jul 2005 (EDT)

:Roslin might not live to see Earth; although I don't have a recording of the episode, I thought she just said that she would "lead" them to Earth before her death. And since Roslin was responsible for finding the path to Earth (the starmaps in the Tomb of Athena) it might be argued that she's already 'led' them on the right path to Earth...[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:56, 27 August 2005 (EDT)

Re: Home, Part II: I realize that it's been difficult to firmly establish dates during this season, and anticipate that it will only get worse now that the main Kobol's Last Gleaming – Home arc is complete and the story resumes a more episodic feel. As a result, it would be helpful to justify any timeline estimates on the relevant episode's Notes section, as I have done for [[Resistance]] and [[The Farm]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:13, 27 August 2005 (EDT)

== Saul and Bill vs. The ''Evil'' Cylons ==

So wait... The Cylong War started when William Adama was, roughly, ten and Saul Tigh was being born? It then went on for about 10 years, thus ending shortly after Adama would have been able to be in the military (assuming both that he wouldn't lie about his age to get in and that the Colonial Fleet has similar age-restrictions to the US Army--both pure speculation) and when Tigh was 10ish. This is my understanding from reading the time-line. I've frankly not paid much attention to when they mention these things on-screen. However, if this is true, then how did the ten-year-old Tigh learn about Cylon boarding party tactics after the Armistice? I have the (perhaps mistaken) impression that both Tigh and Adama are veterans of the Cylon War, but this timeline doesn't seem to allow for that. What's going on here? Am I daft? This is entirely possible. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:03, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

== Untangling Season 2 ==

After their meticulous efforts at keeping track of the timeline during the first season, [[TPTB]] have apparently started slacking off this season. A clear timeline is an important resource, however, so let's start untangling things.

*'''Scattered''', '''Valley of Darkness''' and '''Fragged''' all clearly take place within the same 24-36 hours, on Day 51.

*'''Resistance''' takes place over two days, and begins on day 53 ''at the earliest''. Apollo asks Dualla how his father is doing "today", implying that it is at least the second time he has done so. His first chance would have been the morning of Day 52, putting the earliest possible date of this episode at Day 53.

:*Begins: Day 53
:*Ends: Day 54 (earliest possible)

:At the end of the episode, Roslin escapes and Bill Adama wakes up. In "The Farm", Gaeta states that Roslin's escape took place "last week". This is very vague, and means only that "The Farm" begins more than one day after "Resistance", or else Gaeta would have said "yesterday". In a [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/205/deleted2.html scene] cut from beginning of The Farm (during Roslin's arrival on ''[[Kimba Huta]]''), Roslin makes a stronger statement - that it's been an "entire week" since her escape from ''Galactica''. This allows us to constrain the date of this episode fairly well, by substracting a seven day period from the well established possible date range for The Farm:

:*Ends Day 55 (latest, if Tigh were in command for 11 days (the longest probable time period))
:*Ends Day 57 (latest, if Tigh were in command for 13 days (the longest possible time period))

:I thus consider Days 53-54 to be most likely range. This assumption is important, as "Flight of the Phoenix" must be calculated based on the day of Cally's arrest.

*'''The Farm''' begins with Adama resuming command. According to D'Anna Biers in "Final Cut", Tigh was in command for "over a week". I take this to mean 8-11 days, since if it had been 12 or more, she probably would have said "almost two weeks". That puts the beginning of this episode at day 59 (earliest) or day 62 (latest).

:*Begins: Day 59 (earliest) (Kobol's Last Gleaming Part I (Day 51) + 8 days)
:*Begins: Day 62 (latest probable) (+11 days)
:*Begins: Day 64 (latest possible) (+13 days)

:Roslin, as noted above, clarifies further in a cut scene, implying that this episode takes place exactly seven days after "Resistance". Working off of my estimate above, I therefore suggest that the most probable start date for this episode is Day 61, which puts Tigh in command for a 10 day period.

:This also means that Adama spent seven days between resuming consciousness and resuming command. Given the extent of his injuries, this is entirely plausible.

*'''Home, Part I''' begins immediately after the end of "The Farm".

*'''Final Cut''' takes place 10 days after the last Cylon contact. Since there were none since Valley of Darkness (Day 51), unless we count the Roslin Faction's skirmish on Kobol, and the episode clearly takes place much later than day 61, we must assume there has been a Cylon contact at some point ''after'' "Home, Part II", and that it's been more than ten days since then.

*'''Flight of the Phoenix''' features Cally's release from the brig. Since Bill Adama was being lenient when he sentenced her (in The Farm, some time after she would've been initially imprisoned), we may assume he granted her time served. If she killed Boomer on the evening of day 54, her first day in the brig would have been completed on the evening of day 55, her 30th on the evening of day 84. Her welcome-back party was probably that very night.
:*Begins: Day 84 (earliest, if "Resistance" ended on day 54)
:*Begins: Day 87 (latest possible, if Tigh was in command for 13 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 57)
:As per "Resistance", we assume Day 84 here.

:The duration of the episode is difficult to determine. We can probably put an upper limit on it based on the progress of Roslin's disease in the following episodes, but in his podcast, RDM notes that the timeline was kept deliberately vague for dramatic purposes:
:<blockquote>The true timeline of how long it would really take Tyrol to actually build one of these things from scratch would probably be much - it would be weeks, realistically. But you'd rather tell the story in one package. You'd rather tell the story, hold the viewer in the moment of the scene, make them invest themselves in the effort and pay it off. And so you can fudge the timeline, you can kind of skate by it. There's no definitive statement in the episode of how long this is all taking. It's kept purposely vague. It's not - there's no, like, y'know, clock going on. No one's mentioning a passage of time really since he started working on the viper. You could probably find cryptic references here and there that might nail it down to a specific timeline - ''maybe''.</blockquote>
:*Although interpreting Moore's comments may not be wise, his notion that the Blackbird would take at least "weeks" to complete is probably plausible. Thus we can guess that the episode ends at ''the earliest'' 14 days later.
:*Ends: Day 98 (if "Resistance" ended on day 54)
:*Ends: Day 99 (if Tigh was in command for 11 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 55)
:*Ends: Day 101 (if Tigh was in command for 13 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 57)
:An upper limit on the end date of this episode is provided by the start of "Pegasus". When more information is available we will probably want to expand the date range as generously as possible, given the lengthy construction task in depicts.

*'''Pegasus''' is very difficult to date because of the trouble with the duration of "Flight of the Phoenix". All that can be said for certain is that, since Roslin is still on her feet, it can't ''possibly'' be more than 30 days after that episode begins, and ''probably'' no more than 20. Conceivably, "Pegasus" could have begun the very day "Flight of the Phoenix" ended, with the christening ceremony and Roslin's appearance on Galactica bookmarking the same visit. Otherwise, there were probably several days or more between her visits.
**This is a slightly difficult reading, if only because of Adama's line "Well, Madam President, you picked a hell of a day for a visit" - she didn't pick the day for her visit in "Flight of the Phoenix", the deck crew did.

*'''Resurrection Ship, Part I''' is explicitly stated to take place six months after the fall of the twelve colonies. This badly contradicts earlier information, and there is no plausible place to insert the missing two month period, since Roslin's prognosis is updated before Cally is released from the brig in "Flight of the Phoenix". The episode itself does not appear to span more than a day.

*'''Resurrection Ship, Part II''' resumes immediately from the end of Part I, and appears to span about two and a half days.
:In the episode "Epiphanies", which begins on day 189, Gaius Baltar notes that it has been "weeks" since he last saw his internal six. That puts her last appearance in this episode no later than day 175.

*'''Epiphanies''' should take place very near the end of the life span projected for Roslin in "Flight of the Phoenix". Hopefully more information will be available to date later episodes from that point, but if not, it's probably the last episode that will be dateable with any degree of certainty. For now, we can state that ''at the latest'', the episode ''begins'':
:*Begins: Day 114 (if "Resistance" ended on day 54)
:*Begins: Day 115 (if Tigh was in command for 11 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 55)
:*Begins: Day 117 (if Tigh was in command for 13 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 57)
:However, it now appears that Cain's "six month" statement will be adhered to in future episodes. [http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/2.13/imagepages/image13.html Promotional photographs] from the episode indicate that Boomer is showing visibly, which is more consistant with a five-month pregnancy than the three-month pregnancy accounted for above. (Boomer was impregnated between Day 24 and Day 36 in the first season.)
::Unless you go with the "Cylons have accelerated pregnancies" argument, which is admittedly something of a cop-out. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:09, 14 January 2006 (EST)
:The episode explicitly states that it takes place on Day 189 post-holocaust. The missing two months cannot be accounted for, and must be written off as a continuity error.

'''Summary of Known Information:'''
*KLG, pt. II, Scattered, Valley of Darkness, Fragged - Day 51
*The Farm: Duration unknown. Begins 8-13 days after KLG, pt. II (probably no more than 11)
*Resistance: Covers 2 days. Ends 7 days before The Farm.
*Flight of the Phoenix: Duration is at least 14 days. Begins 30 days after Resistance.
*Resurrection Ship, Part II: Six's last appearance is at least 14 days before the beginning of "Epiphanies".
*Epiphanies: Should begin less than 30 days after Flight of the Phoenix.
*Epiphanies: Begins Day 189

''More to come.'' --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:39, 11 December 2005 (EST)

===How You Can Help===
I need thoughts on the following:
*How many days was Kara Thrace at the Farm on Caprica?
*How many days do both parts of "Home" span?

===Further cleanup===

Firstly, I'm thinking that "Epiphanies" will take place exactly 30 days after "Flight of the Phoenix" (getting it down to the wire, last possible moment to save Roslin, etc). However, I used to think "Flight of the Phoenix" happened on day 86, now it's been moved to day 89 (I don't understand the reasoning), and FotP's date is based on Cally's arrest at the end of "Resistance", however recently the deleted scenes revealed the "The Farm" takes place one week after "Fragged". I'm not adept enough at this to sort it all out, maybe someone else can. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 10:58, 10 December 2005 (EST)

:Which scene? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:33, 10 December 2005 (EST)

::During the Roslin halucination scene in "Resistance", I believe; she says that the Quorum has been unsure of whether to support her or not for "a week now". Granted, it was a dream sequence, but I think it accurately reflects what the tone of the episode was.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:07, 10 December 2005 (EST)

:::Oh, you meant The Farm, which wasn't a hallucination. That's helpful. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:01, 11 December 2005 (EST)

== 6 months? ==

I thought I heard "Is that what you two have been doing out here for the last '''six months'''?" (following by something about philosophical debates and not having that luxury in time of war) from Cain on Colonial One. 180 days is a lot, so I thought I would mention it instead of add it, since I might just have heard incorrectly. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 21:34, 7 January 2006 (EST)

:See [[Resurrection Ship, Part I#Analysis]]. Her comment cannot possibly be correct, but on the other hand, she was speaking in haste and might have been exagerating for dramatic effect. Pegasus and Resurrection Ship almost certainly take place three months and change since the attack. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:23, 7 January 2006 (EST)

Further, in "[[Final Cut]]" D'Anna Biers states that Col. Tigh was in command of Galactica for "over a week"--->which is from "Scattered" to "Resistance" (maybe "The Farm"). I'm going to be liberal with this and say that was 13 days at most (obviously, this is probably not this case). Theorizing here: We know that Col. Tigh took command on Day 51 (on screen Fact), and that may have been in "command" for at most 14 days-->Resistance takes place on Day 65ish. Cally is given 30 days in the brig, gets out in "Flight of the Phoenix" which begins on Day 85ish then. Now, RDM did say that "weeks" pass during Flight of the Phoenix, which we always interpretted as "at least two weeks". In the same episode, Roslin is told that she has one month (30 days), ''tops'', to live. "Pegasus" could have occured right after this. Anyway, "Epiphanies" now says that it takes place on Day 189? Okay, subtract 14 days for the two weeks Six was gone; that's 175. At LEAST two days pass during the Cain trilogy; so 173. --->When does "Flight of the Phoenix" end? That's the question. Well, subtract 30 from 173 and we get 143. You know, no matter how many ways I look at it, I'm suspecting they're trying to pull a full-blown '''retcon''' on us, because they're apparently saying that "Flight of the Phoenix" from beginning to end lasted '''two months'''. '''We know as stated fact that the Presidential elections are taking place on Day 222''' (give or take a week). So unless in an episode stated to take place 30 days from now, there is an election, this is just one of the biggest goofs we've ever had. Thoughts?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:13, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:Yes, that's where it stands. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:37, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::Who says FOTP didn't take 2 months? They were building a frakking ship from scratch, after all. Granted, its the biggest leap we've seen in a single episode, but is there evidence to the contrary? --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:01, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::Yes. Roslin gets her one-month prognosis ''before'' Cally's release from the brig, which we can firmly date. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:39, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::Also, remember that Laura was '''''starting''''' her education-related tour thingee 189 days before Ephiphanies. I am pretty sure that she was almost ENDING it during the miniseries. So, I think we can safely say that Ephiphanies is not happening on day 189, but rather, before it. Granted, its probably not more than a week or two, but that week could be what we're missing to make the timeline coherent. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:01, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::In his podcast, Moore states the the flashback scenes were meant to take place in between Roslin's diagnosis and her departure for Galactica, which was all in the span of one day. He admits that the timeline has to be fudged a bit to get Baltar and Six on the scene, but it was a very short time span. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:39, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::Furthermore, however, I think that we're missing gaps that occur between episodes. For instance, is there evidence that KLG took place right after Colonial Day? We listed a one day gap, but what are we basing that on? There could be a week gap there and we wouldn't know it.
:::There is very firm evidence for all the first season dating, including Colonial Day and Kobol's Last Gleaming. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:39, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::I think we need to list the things we DO know (colonial day takes place on day 47, there is a 30 day gap between resistance and the beginning of FOTP, and Ephiphanies takes place in the 180 day range, etc.) and then rebuild the timeline from there, working in reasonable gaps. We are saying that there are continuity errors due to Ephiphanies, but I doubt RDM would make a blunder like that. We just think there is a continuity error because we've been speculating ao many dates and then taking them for fact. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:01, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::I have been maintaining exactly such a list at the bottom of my lengthy discussion on the topic. I encourage you to read it fully. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:39, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:::Some might call this cavalier, but this is what I ''propose'' as what I would like: Firstly, we're going to bludgeon Ron D. Moore's blog with questions about this until we get an answer (even of the "so what? we made it up" variety, anything). You see, BMS, I feel that we '''should not restructure the timeline based on "Epiphanies"'''. We should point out in the Notes section of every following episode "This is so and so many days after "Epiphanies", however note that BattlestarWiki's timeline shows that it couldn't be this". This is either a major blunder, a retcon, or both. We're not basing it on "Colonial Day", we're basing it on "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II" which was the final day that we got a date on screen (Day 51). KLG part I begins immediately after Colonial Day as you see that Starbuck got drunk at the party then had sex with Baltar in the following episode (she has the same dress, etc). Simply;
:::*Kobol's Last Gleaming Part II through Valley of Darkness happen pretty much on the same day, Day 51.
:::*Colonel Tigh could not possibly have been in command of Galactica for a period of over two weeks. He was in command starting in "Scattered", until "Resistance", although possibly this could have extended until "The Farm".
:::*Cally is given a sentence of 30 days in the brig in "The Farm" for shooting Boomer in "Resistance". (we always assumed it mean 30 Days counting from when she was first arrested, not several days later when Adama sentenced her). She gets out in "Flight of the Phoenix".
:::*Roslin is told later in Flight of the Phoenix that she has no more than one month to live. That puts a MAXIMUM of 30 days between the END of Flight of the Phoenix and "Epiphanies". We do know that Flight of the Phoenix DOES span a time period of WEEKS, we always assumed this was at least two. Though I guess up to four would not be "unreasonable".
:::*Adding them up, 51+14+30 = 90. Flight of the Phoenix BEGINS at around at least Day 90 (although the SCENE with Roslin's diagnosis is after the scene when Cally gets out, I'm willing to fudge it and just say that scenes on different ships don't necessarily happen in order if they don't affect each other right away. Fair enough).---->Thus, "Epiphanies" could not take place any later than Day 120, which is FOUR months, not Six (to quote Picard, "THERE...ARE...**FOUR**..." MONTHS!). What are we supposed to believe, that Flight of the Phoenix lasted '''two months'''? I mean the biggest "official" gap between episodes was the 10 day gap between The Hand of God and Colonial Day.
:::*Another big, "dumb question" I have: If Pegasus-through-Epiphanies (within a few days of each other) is supposed to take place ''Six'' months after the Cylon attack, '''Why isn't Caprica-Boomer more visibly pregnant?!'''. Her daughter was conceived a month after the attack, which would make her ''Five months pregnant'' in "Pegasus". Yet in Pegasus, she's wearing a REALLY form fitting tank top in which she doesn't look noticeably pregnant at all. Anyone else baffled by this?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 10:47, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::Roslin's prognosis is updated very early in "Flight of the Phoenix", ''before'' Cally's release from the brig, so really it should be "a maximum of 30 days between the BEGINNING of Flight of the Phoenix" and "Epiphanies". As for Boomer, she looks about five months along in "Epiphanies", but certainly did not during the "Pegasus" trilogy. I think it's fairly obvious that we just have to write off the "lost" two months as a continuity glitch - there's certainly no use badgering RDM about it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:28, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::Thanks, Peter. Thats what I really wanted to see, the dates that we know filled in with the dates we can speculate. It appears your right, there are 2 months missing. I didn't think that RDM would make such a huge blunder - If I were him, I would have written out all the dates George Lucas style - he had the entire Star Wars timeline from Anakin's birth to Luke's death planned out before he even released the first one back in 1977. I thought RDM, with his whole "naturalistic science fiction" crusade would have done the same. Way to frak it up, RDM. PS way to work in the Picard reference - great episode. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 15:33, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:::::No he didn't. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:30, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::::I just had another thought. Perhaps Roslins little tour lasted 2 months. If she was going to all 12 colonies, who knows? That might be the missing two months right there. Do we have a reference to the duration of that tour? --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 15:36, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:::::See RDM's podcast for his thoughts on the duration of the flashbacks. They were originally intended to all take place in between Roslin's diagnosis and her departure for ''Galactica'', all on the same day. Note that her suit matches the one she arrived on Galactica wearing. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:43, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::Very good observations, and I think we should try to pressure RDM about this, if possible. He spouts so much rhetoric about keeping it believeable that we can't really let something like this slide. However, I don't know about using the FotP "1 month" diagnosis as the ''main'' point of continuity criticism. While it is true that Dr. Cottle has shown to be a very good doctor and his estimate is probably a well-informed one, it is still an ''estimate.'' This certainly wouldn't be the first time a patient lived longer than a doctor expected, and it won't be the last. Despite decades of collecting data, cancer is still not very well understood by Earth doctors, and it follows that since the Galactica world is almost identical to ours in terms of medical technology (by design), cancer is not all that well understood there either. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 15:37, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:::::No. In that episode he said he's be ''surprised'' if she lived a month. They were down to a few weeks. Jumping from that to saying "well she could have just lived two months and surprised everyone" is stretching it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:30, 22 January 2006 (EST)
By the way, please try to read the discussion thread more carefully. As much as I don't care for Ricimer regurgitating my easily accessible notes, I'd still rather not be erroneously credited for his posts. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:11, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:I'm as upset about this as you are. I was developing my own thoughts, "thinking out loud" as it were, not "regurgitating" what you said (similarities are due to the fact that they share the same source material). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:30, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:I think we're all basically on the same page here, so there's no need to argue over who came up with what originally. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 17:37, 22 January 2006 (EST)

==Duration of Home, Part I==

What's the basis for the recent dating for Home, Part I? I mean in terms of quotes or something I missed.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:I don't know. It would probably be best to consider it in three parts with The Farm and Home, Part II, since they all seem to pick up where the other leaves off. I've sort of held off on re-watching them longer than I should, since they aren't really my favorite episodes... --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:00, 8 January 2006 (EST)
::If we just "assumed" 2 days had passed, etc without evidence I think it should be replaced with ?? marks. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:38, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::I agree, if there's no evidence, but let's give Kahran a chance to respond. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:41, 8 January 2006 (EST)

== Roslin's life expectancy after "Epiphanies" ==

Should we remove the "Roslin's maximum/minimum life expectancy" stat now that her cancer's been all but cured?
[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 20:58, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I'd rather not. We didn't remove her older life expectancy from "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I" when the estimate was revised downward in "Flight of the Phoenix". Both data points might still be of interest to someone who's following the continuity of the show. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:04, 21 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Timeline (RDM)/Archive5

2006-01-22T20:37:41Z

Drumstick: /* 6 months? */

Only twelve days between Caprica Boomer's conception and morning sickness? That put's it at the fourth week, which is pretty much before she notices she is late. Sounds like a possible plot hole. Perhaps the caprica segments were not at the same time as the main fleet episodes or Cylon physilology makes them super sensitive to morning sickness. --[[User:Shemnon|Shemnon]] 18:35, 28 Jul 2005 (EDT)

:In fact, the times used here are taken from the captions introducing the Caprica sections in each episode, so a discrepancy is not possible. I too find the interval implausibly short, but that's just how it is, I guess. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:18, 29 Jul 2005 (EDT)

:Roslin might not live to see Earth; although I don't have a recording of the episode, I thought she just said that she would "lead" them to Earth before her death. And since Roslin was responsible for finding the path to Earth (the starmaps in the Tomb of Athena) it might be argued that she's already 'led' them on the right path to Earth...[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:56, 27 August 2005 (EDT)

Re: Home, Part II: I realize that it's been difficult to firmly establish dates during this season, and anticipate that it will only get worse now that the main Kobol's Last Gleaming – Home arc is complete and the story resumes a more episodic feel. As a result, it would be helpful to justify any timeline estimates on the relevant episode's Notes section, as I have done for [[Resistance]] and [[The Farm]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:13, 27 August 2005 (EDT)

== Saul and Bill vs. The ''Evil'' Cylons ==

So wait... The Cylong War started when William Adama was, roughly, ten and Saul Tigh was being born? It then went on for about 10 years, thus ending shortly after Adama would have been able to be in the military (assuming both that he wouldn't lie about his age to get in and that the Colonial Fleet has similar age-restrictions to the US Army--both pure speculation) and when Tigh was 10ish. This is my understanding from reading the time-line. I've frankly not paid much attention to when they mention these things on-screen. However, if this is true, then how did the ten-year-old Tigh learn about Cylon boarding party tactics after the Armistice? I have the (perhaps mistaken) impression that both Tigh and Adama are veterans of the Cylon War, but this timeline doesn't seem to allow for that. What's going on here? Am I daft? This is entirely possible. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:03, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

== Untangling Season 2 ==

After their meticulous efforts at keeping track of the timeline during the first season, [[TPTB]] have apparently started slacking off this season. A clear timeline is an important resource, however, so let's start untangling things.

*'''Scattered''', '''Valley of Darkness''' and '''Fragged''' all clearly take place within the same 24-36 hours, on Day 51.

*'''Resistance''' takes place over two days, and begins on day 53 ''at the earliest''. Apollo asks Dualla how his father is doing "today", implying that it is at least the second time he has done so. His first chance would have been the morning of Day 52, putting the earliest possible date of this episode at Day 53.

:*Begins: Day 53
:*Ends: Day 54 (earliest possible)

:At the end of the episode, Roslin escapes and Bill Adama wakes up. In "The Farm", Gaeta states that Roslin's escape took place "last week". This is very vague, and means only that "The Farm" begins more than one day after "Resistance", or else Gaeta would have said "yesterday". In a [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/205/deleted2.html scene] cut from beginning of The Farm (during Roslin's arrival on ''[[Kimba Huta]]''), Roslin makes a stronger statement - that it's been an "entire week" since her escape from ''Galactica''. This allows us to constrain the date of this episode fairly well, by substracting a seven day period from the well established possible date range for The Farm:

:*Ends Day 55 (latest, if Tigh were in command for 11 days (the longest probable time period))
:*Ends Day 57 (latest, if Tigh were in command for 13 days (the longest possible time period))

:I thus consider Days 53-54 to be most likely range. This assumption is important, as "Flight of the Phoenix" must be calculated based on the day of Cally's arrest.

*'''The Farm''' begins with Adama resuming command. According to D'Anna Biers in "Final Cut", Tigh was in command for "over a week". I take this to mean 8-11 days, since if it had been 12 or more, she probably would have said "almost two weeks". That puts the beginning of this episode at day 59 (earliest) or day 62 (latest).

:*Begins: Day 59 (earliest) (Kobol's Last Gleaming Part I (Day 51) + 8 days)
:*Begins: Day 62 (latest probable) (+11 days)
:*Begins: Day 64 (latest possible) (+13 days)

:Roslin, as noted above, clarifies further in a cut scene, implying that this episode takes place exactly seven days after "Resistance". Working off of my estimate above, I therefore suggest that the most probable start date for this episode is Day 61, which puts Tigh in command for a 10 day period.

:This also means that Adama spent seven days between resuming consciousness and resuming command. Given the extent of his injuries, this is entirely plausible.

*'''Home, Part I''' begins immediately after the end of "The Farm".

*'''Final Cut''' takes place 10 days after the last Cylon contact. Since there were none since Valley of Darkness (Day 51), unless we count the Roslin Faction's skirmish on Kobol, and the episode clearly takes place much later than day 61, we must assume there has been a Cylon contact at some point ''after'' "Home, Part II", and that it's been more than ten days since then.

*'''Flight of the Phoenix''' features Cally's release from the brig. Since Bill Adama was being lenient when he sentenced her (in The Farm, some time after she would've been initially imprisoned), we may assume he granted her time served. If she killed Boomer on the evening of day 54, her first day in the brig would have been completed on the evening of day 55, her 30th on the evening of day 84. Her welcome-back party was probably that very night.
:*Begins: Day 84 (earliest, if "Resistance" ended on day 54)
:*Begins: Day 87 (latest possible, if Tigh was in command for 13 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 57)
:As per "Resistance", we assume Day 84 here.

:The duration of the episode is difficult to determine. We can probably put an upper limit on it based on the progress of Roslin's disease in the following episodes, but in his podcast, RDM notes that the timeline was kept deliberately vague for dramatic purposes:
:<blockquote>The true timeline of how long it would really take Tyrol to actually build one of these things from scratch would probably be much - it would be weeks, realistically. But you'd rather tell the story in one package. You'd rather tell the story, hold the viewer in the moment of the scene, make them invest themselves in the effort and pay it off. And so you can fudge the timeline, you can kind of skate by it. There's no definitive statement in the episode of how long this is all taking. It's kept purposely vague. It's not - there's no, like, y'know, clock going on. No one's mentioning a passage of time really since he started working on the viper. You could probably find cryptic references here and there that might nail it down to a specific timeline - ''maybe''.</blockquote>
:*Although interpreting Moore's comments may not be wise, his notion that the Blackbird would take at least "weeks" to complete is probably plausible. Thus we can guess that the episode ends at ''the earliest'' 14 days later.
:*Ends: Day 98 (if "Resistance" ended on day 54)
:*Ends: Day 99 (if Tigh was in command for 11 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 55)
:*Ends: Day 101 (if Tigh was in command for 13 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 57)
:An upper limit on the end date of this episode is provided by the start of "Pegasus". When more information is available we will probably want to expand the date range as generously as possible, given the lengthy construction task in depicts.

*'''Pegasus''' is very difficult to date because of the trouble with the duration of "Flight of the Phoenix". All that can be said for certain is that, since Roslin is still on her feet, it can't ''possibly'' be more than 30 days after that episode begins, and ''probably'' no more than 20. Conceivably, "Pegasus" could have begun the very day "Flight of the Phoenix" ended, with the christening ceremony and Roslin's appearance on Galactica bookmarking the same visit. Otherwise, there were probably several days or more between her visits.
**This is a slightly difficult reading, if only because of Adama's line "Well, Madam President, you picked a hell of a day for a visit" - she didn't pick the day for her visit in "Flight of the Phoenix", the deck crew did.

*'''Resurrection Ship, Part I''' is explicitly stated to take place six months after the fall of the twelve colonies. This badly contradicts earlier information, and there is no plausible place to insert the missing two month period, since Roslin's prognosis is updated before Cally is released from the brig in "Flight of the Phoenix". The episode itself does not appear to span more than a day.

*'''Resurrection Ship, Part II''' resumes immediately from the end of Part I, and appears to span about two and a half days.
:In the episode "Epiphanies", which begins on day 189, Gaius Baltar notes that it has been "weeks" since he last saw his internal six. That puts her last appearance in this episode no later than day 175.

*'''Epiphanies''' should take place very near the end of the life span projected for Roslin in "Flight of the Phoenix". Hopefully more information will be available to date later episodes from that point, but if not, it's probably the last episode that will be dateable with any degree of certainty. For now, we can state that ''at the latest'', the episode ''begins'':
:*Begins: Day 114 (if "Resistance" ended on day 54)
:*Begins: Day 115 (if Tigh was in command for 11 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 55)
:*Begins: Day 117 (if Tigh was in command for 13 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 57)
:However, it now appears that Cain's "six month" statement will be adhered to in future episodes. [http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/2.13/imagepages/image13.html Promotional photographs] from the episode indicate that Boomer is showing visibly, which is more consistant with a five-month pregnancy than the three-month pregnancy accounted for above. (Boomer was impregnated between Day 24 and Day 36 in the first season.)
::Unless you go with the "Cylons have accelerated pregnancies" argument, which is admittedly something of a cop-out. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:09, 14 January 2006 (EST)
:The episode explicitly states that it takes place on Day 189 post-holocaust. The missing two months cannot be accounted for, and must be written off as a continuity error.

'''Summary of Known Information:'''
*KLG, pt. II, Scattered, Valley of Darkness, Fragged - Day 51
*The Farm: Duration unknown. Begins 8-13 days after KLG, pt. II (probably no more than 11)
*Resistance: Covers 2 days. Ends 7 days before The Farm.
*Flight of the Phoenix: Duration is at least 14 days. Begins 30 days after Resistance.
*Resurrection Ship, Part II: Six's last appearance is at least 14 days before the beginning of "Epiphanies".
*Epiphanies: Should begin less than 30 days after Flight of the Phoenix.
*Epiphanies: Begins Day 189

''More to come.'' --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:39, 11 December 2005 (EST)

===How You Can Help===
I need thoughts on the following:
*How many days was Kara Thrace at the Farm on Caprica?
*How many days do both parts of "Home" span?

===Further cleanup===

Firstly, I'm thinking that "Epiphanies" will take place exactly 30 days after "Flight of the Phoenix" (getting it down to the wire, last possible moment to save Roslin, etc). However, I used to think "Flight of the Phoenix" happened on day 86, now it's been moved to day 89 (I don't understand the reasoning), and FotP's date is based on Cally's arrest at the end of "Resistance", however recently the deleted scenes revealed the "The Farm" takes place one week after "Fragged". I'm not adept enough at this to sort it all out, maybe someone else can. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 10:58, 10 December 2005 (EST)

:Which scene? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:33, 10 December 2005 (EST)

::During the Roslin halucination scene in "Resistance", I believe; she says that the Quorum has been unsure of whether to support her or not for "a week now". Granted, it was a dream sequence, but I think it accurately reflects what the tone of the episode was.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:07, 10 December 2005 (EST)

:::Oh, you meant The Farm, which wasn't a hallucination. That's helpful. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:01, 11 December 2005 (EST)

== 6 months? ==

I thought I heard "Is that what you two have been doing out here for the last '''six months'''?" (following by something about philosophical debates and not having that luxury in time of war) from Cain on Colonial One. 180 days is a lot, so I thought I would mention it instead of add it, since I might just have heard incorrectly. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 21:34, 7 January 2006 (EST)

:See [[Resurrection Ship, Part I#Analysis]]. Her comment cannot possibly be correct, but on the other hand, she was speaking in haste and might have been exagerating for dramatic effect. Pegasus and Resurrection Ship almost certainly take place three months and change since the attack. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:23, 7 January 2006 (EST)

Further, in "[[Final Cut]]" D'Anna Biers states that Col. Tigh was in command of Galactica for "over a week"--->which is from "Scattered" to "Resistance" (maybe "The Farm"). I'm going to be liberal with this and say that was 13 days at most (obviously, this is probably not this case). Theorizing here: We know that Col. Tigh took command on Day 51 (on screen Fact), and that may have been in "command" for at most 14 days-->Resistance takes place on Day 65ish. Cally is given 30 days in the brig, gets out in "Flight of the Phoenix" which begins on Day 85ish then. Now, RDM did say that "weeks" pass during Flight of the Phoenix, which we always interpretted as "at least two weeks". In the same episode, Roslin is told that she has one month (30 days), ''tops'', to live. "Pegasus" could have occured right after this. Anyway, "Epiphanies" now says that it takes place on Day 189? Okay, subtract 14 days for the two weeks Six was gone; that's 175. At LEAST two days pass during the Cain trilogy; so 173. --->When does "Flight of the Phoenix" end? That's the question. Well, subtract 30 from 173 and we get 143. You know, no matter how many ways I look at it, I'm suspecting they're trying to pull a full-blown '''retcon''' on us, because they're apparently saying that "Flight of the Phoenix" from beginning to end lasted '''two months'''. '''We know as stated fact that the Presidential elections are taking place on Day 222''' (give or take a week). So unless in an episode stated to take place 30 days from now, there is an election, this is just one of the biggest goofs we've ever had. Thoughts?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:13, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:Yes, that's where it stands. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:37, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::Who says FOTP didn't take 2 months? They were building a frakking ship from scratch, after all. Granted, its the biggest leap we've seen in a single episode, but is there evidence to the contrary? --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:01, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::Yes. Roslin gets her one-month prognosis ''before'' Cally's release from the brig, which we can firmly date. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:39, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::Also, remember that Laura was '''''starting''''' her education-related tour thingee 189 days before Ephiphanies. I am pretty sure that she was almost ENDING it during the miniseries. So, I think we can safely say that Ephiphanies is not happening on day 189, but rather, before it. Granted, its probably not more than a week or two, but that week could be what we're missing to make the timeline coherent. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:01, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::In his podcast, Moore states the the flashback scenes were meant to take place in between Roslin's diagnosis and her departure for Galactica, which was all in the span of one day. He admits that the timeline has to be fudged a bit to get Baltar and Six on the scene, but it was a very short time span. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:39, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::Furthermore, however, I think that we're missing gaps that occur between episodes. For instance, is there evidence that KLG took place right after Colonial Day? We listed a one day gap, but what are we basing that on? There could be a week gap there and we wouldn't know it.
:::There is very firm evidence for all the first season dating, including Colonial Day and Kobol's Last Gleaming. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:39, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::I think we need to list the things we DO know (colonial day takes place on day 47, there is a 30 day gap between resistance and the beginning of FOTP, and Ephiphanies takes place in the 180 day range, etc.) and then rebuild the timeline from there, working in reasonable gaps. We are saying that there are continuity errors due to Ephiphanies, but I doubt RDM would make a blunder like that. We just think there is a continuity error because we've been speculating ao many dates and then taking them for fact. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:01, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::I have been maintaining exactly such a list at the bottom of my lengthy discussion on the topic. I encourage you to read it fully. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:39, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:::Some might call this cavalier, but this is what I ''propose'' as what I would like: Firstly, we're going to bludgeon Ron D. Moore's blog with questions about this until we get an answer (even of the "so what? we made it up" variety, anything). You see, BMS, I feel that we '''should not restructure the timeline based on "Epiphanies"'''. We should point out in the Notes section of every following episode "This is so and so many days after "Epiphanies", however note that BattlestarWiki's timeline shows that it couldn't be this". This is either a major blunder, a retcon, or both. We're not basing it on "Colonial Day", we're basing it on "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II" which was the final day that we got a date on screen (Day 51). KLG part I begins immediately after Colonial Day as you see that Starbuck got drunk at the party then had sex with Baltar in the following episode (she has the same dress, etc). Simply;
:::*Kobol's Last Gleaming Part II through Valley of Darkness happen pretty much on the same day, Day 51.
:::*Colonel Tigh could not possibly have been in command of Galactica for a period of over two weeks. He was in command starting in "Scattered", until "Resistance", although possibly this could have extended until "The Farm".
:::*Cally is given a sentence of 30 days in the brig in "The Farm" for shooting Boomer in "Resistance". (we always assumed it mean 30 Days counting from when she was first arrested, not several days later when Adama sentenced her). She gets out in "Flight of the Phoenix".
:::*Roslin is told later in Flight of the Phoenix that she has no more than one month to live. That puts a MAXIMUM of 30 days between the END of Flight of the Phoenix and "Epiphanies". We do know that Flight of the Phoenix DOES span a time period of WEEKS, we always assumed this was at least two. Though I guess up to four would not be "unreasonable".
:::*Adding them up, 51+14+30 = 90. Flight of the Phoenix BEGINS at around at least Day 90 (although the SCENE with Roslin's diagnosis is after the scene when Cally gets out, I'm willing to fudge it and just say that scenes on different ships don't necessarily happen in order if they don't affect each other right away. Fair enough).---->Thus, "Epiphanies" could not take place any later than Day 120, which is FOUR months, not Six (to quote Picard, "THERE...ARE...**FOUR**..." MONTHS!). What are we supposed to believe, that Flight of the Phoenix lasted '''two months'''? I mean the biggest "official" gap between episodes was the 10 day gap between The Hand of God and Colonial Day.
:::*Another big, "dumb question" I have: If Pegasus-through-Epiphanies (within a few days of each other) is supposed to take place ''Six'' months after the Cylon attack, '''Why isn't Caprica-Boomer more visibly pregnant?!'''. Her daughter was conceived a month after the attack, which would make her ''Five months pregnant'' in "Pegasus". Yet in Pegasus, she's wearing a REALLY form fitting tank top in which she doesn't look noticeably pregnant at all. Anyone else baffled by this?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 10:47, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::Roslin's prognosis is updated very early in "Flight of the Phoenix", ''before'' Cally's release from the brig, so really it should be "a maximum of 30 days between the BEGINNING of Flight of the Phoenix" and "Epiphanies". As for Boomer, she looks about five months along in "Epiphanies", but certainly did not during the "Pegasus" trilogy. I think it's fairly obvious that we just have to write off the "lost" two months as a continuity glitch - there's certainly no use badgering RDM about it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:28, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::Thanks, Peter. Thats what I really wanted to see, the dates that we know filled in with the dates we can speculate. It appears your right, there are 2 months missing. I didn't think that RDM would make such a huge blunder - If I were him, I would have written out all the dates George Lucas style - he had the entire Star Wars timeline from Anakin's birth to Luke's death planned out before he even released the first one back in 1977. I thought RDM, with his whole "naturalistic science fiction" crusade would have done the same. Perhaps theres a 2 month gap between res ship II and ephiphanies, but there is that "is this what you've been doing for 6 months" comment from Cain. Way to frak it up, RDM. PS way to work in the Picard reference - great episode. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 15:33, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::I just had another thought. Perhaps Roslins little tour lasted 2 months. If she was going to all 12 colonies, who knows? That might be the missing two months right there. Do we have a reference to the duration of that tour? --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 15:36, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::Very good observations, and I think we should try to pressure RDM about this, if possible. He spouts so much rhetoric about keeping it believeable that we can't really let something like this slide. However, I don't know about using the FotP "1 month" diagnosis as the ''main'' point of continuity criticism. While it is true that Dr. Cottle has shown to be a very good doctor and his estimate is probably a well-informed one, it is still an ''estimate.'' This certainly wouldn't be the first time a patient lived longer than a doctor expected, and it won't be the last. Despite decades of collecting data, cancer is still not very well understood by Earth doctors, and it follows that since the Galactica world is almost identical to ours in terms of medical technology (by design), cancer is not all that well understood there either. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 15:37, 22 January 2006 (EST)

==Duration of Home, Part I==

What's the basis for the recent dating for Home, Part I? I mean in terms of quotes or something I missed.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:I don't know. It would probably be best to consider it in three parts with The Farm and Home, Part II, since they all seem to pick up where the other leaves off. I've sort of held off on re-watching them longer than I should, since they aren't really my favorite episodes... --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:00, 8 January 2006 (EST)
::If we just "assumed" 2 days had passed, etc without evidence I think it should be replaced with ?? marks. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:38, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::I agree, if there's no evidence, but let's give Kahran a chance to respond. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:41, 8 January 2006 (EST)

== Roslin's life expectancy after "Epiphanies" ==

Should we remove the "Roslin's maximum/minimum life expectancy" stat now that her cancer's been all but cured?
[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 20:58, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I'd rather not. We didn't remove her older life expectancy from "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I" when the estimate was revised downward in "Flight of the Phoenix". Both data points might still be of interest to someone who's following the continuity of the show. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:04, 21 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Epiphanies/Archive 1

2006-01-22T20:23:01Z

Drumstick: Comment about Baltar being a "general" scientist

Talk:Epiphanies/Archive 1

2006-01-22T01:07:14Z

Drumstick: /* And By the Way */

Sherman Cottle

2006-01-18T23:00:10Z

Drumstick: /* Biography */ nonplussed means puzzled... not sure what the author meant here

{{Character Data|
|photo= [[Image:bsg-cottle-1.jpg|200px]]
|age= Mid 60's
|colony= Unknown
|birthname=
|callsign=
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status=
|role= Chief Medical Officer, ''[[Battlestar]] [[Galactica]]''
|rank= Major
|actor= [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Donnelly+Rhodes Donnelly Rhodes]
|cylon=
}}

Doctor Cottle is [[Original battlestar (RDM)|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]'s'' irrascible Chief Medical Officer ([[CMO]]). Because the ship is operating with a minimal crew compliment leading up to its expected decomissioning, Cottle is the only real physician aboard ''Galactica'' (perhaps in the entire [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]]), supported by a handful of medics like [[Layne Ishay]] and [[Howard Kim]]. Cottle is somewhat eccentric -- a heavy smoker, despite knowing the risks, and one not overly impressed by positions of power.

== Biography ==

Cottle is the third person in the Fleet to learn about President [[Laura Roslin]]'s fight with cancer ([[Act of Contrition]]), after [[Lee Adama]] ([[Bastille Day]]) and [[Billy Keikeya]] ([[Mini-Series]]). He agrees to treat her condition, without revealing it to anyone else, and further agrees to support more unorthodox treatments such as [[Chamalla]] extract. Knowing the extent of her illness and Roslin's reluctance to undergo [[diloxin]] therapy, the doctor also recommends prayer.

Cottle takes a personal interest in [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck's]] recovery after she breaks her leg during a mission ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]). The doctor works with Lee Adama to get her out of sickbay ([[Six Degrees of Separation]]) without initial success.

Grumpy of attitude, yet always professional, Cottle instantly inspires trust, despite his attitude.

After the [[assassination|assassination attempt]] on [[William Adama]], ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]) Cottle is unavailable to stabilize the Commander as he is aboard another ship in the Fleet. Matters worsen after ''Galactica'''s emergency [[FTL|Jump]] separates Cottle and the battlestar. [[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]] orders Cottle's medics to stop Adama's internal bleeding ([[Scattered]]). However, while the medics stabilize the Commander's condition, they are unable to fully stop his bleeding. Cottle finally arrives and is able to operate on Commander Adama. After much risky work, the doctor saves Adama's life ([[Fragged]]).

Cottle speaks rather contemptuously of Colonel [[Saul Tigh]]'s authority. When Tigh asks of Adama's condition as Cottle begins surgery to save the Commander's life, he tells the XO, "How should I know? I'm not a psychic. Now get the hell out of here" ([[Fragged]]). Later, after Tigh orders an ill-advised attempt to restore supply runs to ''Galactica'' on the ''[[Gideon]]'', resulting in four civilian deaths, Cottle is anything but sympathetic when Tigh asks what happened: "What'd you expect, genius? You put a pilot in charge of crowd control" ([[Resistance]]).

At the request of President Roslin, despite her straight-to-the-point warning about its illegality and danger (Cottle: "You're a lousy salesman."), he assists Roslin in escaping ''Galactica'' by filing a request for a [[Raptor]] flight away from the battlestar, to care for patients on other ships. Roslin leaves ''Galactica'' on this "appropriated" Raptor with [[Lee Adama]] at the helm ([[Resistance]]).

Major Cottle performs a series of medical scans on [[Gaius Baltar]]'s head at Baltar's request. Unknown to Cottle, Baltar is looking to see if there is a Cylon computer chip implanted into his brain. The scans show absolutely nothing unusual, and Cottle dismisses Baltar as a hypochondriac ([[Home, Part II]]).

Even Cottle's stony exterior gives way to the pain he sees on Laura Roslin's face when he gives her a new prognosis on her fight with cancer. Her cancer has spread aggressively, and the good doctor gives Roslin, on the outside, one month to live ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). His concern for Cylon Sharon Valerii and her unborn hybrid child is remarkable, especially in the face of the rest of the crew's distrust and even hatred of her. He described her atempted rape by Lt. Thorne as "unforgiveable." ("[[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]")

== Notes ==

*Cottle's counterpart in the [[TOS|Original Series]] is [[Salik]].
*Somewhat contrary to [[Ron D. Moore]]'s [[naturalistic science fiction]] principles used to form the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|re-imagined series]], Cottle's grumpy personality is akin to [[Wikipedia:Leonard McCoy|another popular medical officer]] in television science fiction.
*In the DVD commentary for "[[Act of Contrition]]", RDM states that actor Donnelly Rhodes was one of the three finalists up for the role of Col. [[Saul Tigh]], though in the end the part was given to one of the other finalists, [[Michael Hogan]].

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Characters]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Language in the Twelve Colonies/Archive3

2006-01-18T02:35:51Z

Drumstick:

==Radio Alphabet==

''Discussions moved to [[Talk:Colonial Wireless Alphabet]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] at 20:07, 10 October 2005 (EDT).''

==Aerelon Accent==
:''(It is probably some subtle nuance that a Colonial character like Baltar could notice, but that is indistinguishable from an American accent to the audience).''

No, listen. None of these characters are actually speaking English. The whole thing is a conceit to make it intelligable to the viewer. I'm sure that in the fictional universe of BSG, Boomer does speak with a "trace of an Aerelon accent", but since the show chooses to represent this as Standard American English, there's little point speculating about phonological variations that we can't hear. It's not a matter of Baltar being able to hear something we can't, the showmakers have just chosen not to give us the information. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:38, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

: Yeah. I tend to agree. My agreement is influenced by a couple of things in addition to the above.

: '''One:''' I have a BA in Linguistics. I know a bit about accents and the sounds of human speech, etc. I'm also somewhat used to hearing differences in sounds that most Anglophones aren't used to (like distinctions that are meaningful in other languages, but not in English). These two things make it hard for me to believe that, after reading about this theory and listening to Boomer speak with the purpose of hearing an accent, I'd somehow be unable to hear it simply because I'm ''missing'' it.

: '''Two:''' I'm a rather large Tolkien dork and am familiar with the idea of "translating" something into English for the benefit of English-speaking viewers (to say nothing of over-dubbed versions of this show for non-English-speaking viewers. Additionally, being familiar with Tolkien's special flavor of language-centric crazy, I don't get that, well, vibe from RDM. He seems much more interested in the story and the cinematics than correctly representing the names of people from Dale as corrupted Old English names in order to show their long-ago linguistic connection to the Rohirrim, whose language is tacitly represented by Old English--as he should be.

: If, for whatever reason, the BSG production/directoral staff were interested in drawing parallels to Colonial accents with the use of English accents, it would be much more apparent. What is more likely is, as Peter posits, they aren't giving us the information. That's been screened out if for no other reason than the fact that they didn't really think about it. It's not a big deal. I think this is evidenced by Baltar's remark about Boomer's accent, actually. If they were keeping tabs of language enough to care about accents, they would realise the extreme unlikelihood that even a stereotypically recognized majority of an entire planet's population would have an accent that was the same. I mean--What's the most common (and thus, best seen as stereotypically Earthly) accent on our world? Chinese. Which is, you know, not precisely an accent. ;o)

: I think, actually, that the BSG crew ''are'' paying attention to accents, however. It's just not in a way that identifies characters geographically or--whatever. They pick accents that will predispose American and British (and, thus, probably Australian) viewers to certain preconceptions about their characters. Baltar speaks, more or less, the Queen's English, which will predispose Westerners to assume he's intelligent, wealthy, well bred and well educated. Baltar ''is'' these things. Kara Thrace speaks pretty standard American English and does it with a fairly high volume. She assumes the stereotypes of the loud American, so to speak. Notice, too, that the reporter had an English accent. At the end of her documentary, I half expected her to say, "This is D'anna Whatever, BBC news." I don't even ''get'' the BBC in Texas.

: This is getting absurdly lengthy. I apologize. I tend to do this when words are at issue. Anyway, one final point: I don't think the same thing can be neccesarily said for "race". Since where your genes are from, geographically, is a rather more visual thing, I tend to think that this would more easily occur to a TV producer as something worth keeping track of. That doesn't mean that it did and they are, but that most of my arguements here don't apply to that case much. I'll, ah, I'm done now. ;o) --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:31, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

::Well said. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:01, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

It is true that Grace Park is a fluent speaker of Korean, but her English--either as Sharon Valerii or as herself in interviews--bears no trace of a Korean accent whatsoever. I am married to a native Korean speaker, have friends and colleagues who speak Korean either as their first or second language, and have been studying the language for a few years myself, so I am absolutely certain that Korean has no bearing on what might or might not be considered an Aerelon accent. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]]

:I tend to agree, but felt like someone would bring up her bilingualism inevitably and that it would be better to address it directly. If Grace Park (and thus Boomer) has a trace of ''any'' accent, it ought to be Korean, so I felt it worth a mention. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:31, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

::You said that Grace Park's bilingualism would come up eventually. I would recommend limiting discussions of her bilingualism to the actress' bio page. The label "Korean" doesn't meaningfully describe anything that's going on when Sharon/Boomer is speaking. My own Korean is getting good enough that I'm approaching true "bilingual" status, but nobody would use "Korean" to describe my English. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]]

:::Discussing Park's bilingualism on the actress' bio page would not shed any insight for a reader of this page, nor would it allay any questions that such knowledge might raise. I understand that her spoken english is flawless, but the fact that it is not actually her first language is at least marginally relevant here, and is given the footnote it deserves.

:::As for her "northwestern" accent, I don't truly believe that that's any different from General American / Standard Midwestern - the only phonological difference I can think of is the caught/cot merger, which is too subtle to deserve the name "accent". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:00, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: Perhaps it should be specifically noted here that her Korean fluency doesn't seem to have any impact whatsoever on her English accent. I agree with Peter that it's important to note it here, so that someone who doesn't know any better doesn't come along and think we missed that point and that they've solved our problem by mentioning a (non-existant) Korean accent. Sometimes, when you are making an argument or assertion, you have to mention some things that are, really, irrelevant in order to make clear that they are, indeed, irrelevant so that others will not wrongly think that they are. Make sense? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:08, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

::::I was just about to say something like that. Thanks, Day! --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 03:10, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::Tried to make it a little more forceful. You can tell that this wiki is great because we spend whole evenings discussing single sentences. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:18, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::: Nice edit. And I hope you were being serious. I spent a lot of time in college working on a print publication and for the last couple years, I was the Editor in Chief (kind of a joke because there were only six of us on staff). In any case, it was a humor publication and sometimes we'd spend hours debating about the wording of a single sentence in order to deliver the most punch. It almost always paid off. In this case, we're not looking to be funny, but I still think it pays to make sure a sentence communicates exactly the information we intend: no more and no less. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:48, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::: Quite serious. Concision is nothing without precision. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:48, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::::: So, you're not really the Concision Fairy. You're the Concision/Percision Fairy. Which is less concise, but more precise. Maybe you're the (Con|Pre)cision Fairy. Phleh. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:16, 20 October 2005 (EDT)

==Racetrack==
Is it just me or does Racetrack have a vaguely Canadian accent in her scene on the Raptor early in [[Final Cut]]? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:10, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

==Stating the obvious==

:''Mister (Mr), Miss, and Doctor have all been used, but Missus {Mrs} has not.''

The concision fairy frowns in disapproval. Why is this interesting? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:26, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

Nothing much since we haven't seen anyone married. Given the gender equality in BSG, however, it may well be that "Mrs" is not used. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:20, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

==Valley Girl Accent==

[[User:Day|Day]] and I believe that [[Pythia]] likely spoke with [[Wikipedia:High rising terminal|High rising terminal]]s, also known as a "valley girl accent". We have concluded this based on the fact that no less than 67% of the direct quotes from her book of prophecy begin with the coordinating conjunction "and", as in the following passage:

"And, like, the lords anointed a leader to like, guide the Caravan of the Heavens to their new homeland?, and, like, unto the leader they gave a vision of serpents numbering two and ten?, as like, a sign of things to come?, which is like, totally spooky. And then, like, the Arrow of Apollo will open the Tomb of Athena, which is totally ''boss'', but Zeus like, got all uppity and warned the leaders of the twelve tribes that any return to Kobol would exact a price in blood, which is totally ''gross'', 'cause blood is gross, y'know? And like, a real ''bummer'', since Kobol is hot shit."

So say we all. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:19, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

: NO, that was meant to sound religious, in the tone of "And the number shall be "three". "Four" be too many, and "two" be too few (unless though then proceedeth to "three"). "Five" is right out. ---Ricimer, 17 Sept, 2005

::The effect is, as noted, somewhat different when you read them all out in a list. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:39, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

:::Damn both of you. My deykoard is ruimed from spittake effect with kola! [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:03, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

==General American==
On a somewhat smaller matter, there is no linguistically accepted version of English called "General English," with a capital G. I am willing to accept a lower case g, "general English," to indicate "common sense" notions about the accent/group of accents. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]]

:You are correct. The article previously referred to Standard American English (SAE), which I have encountered in contrast to African American Vernacular English (AAVE) in sociolinguistics. As I'm sure you can tell, I intend to refer to the midwestern "newscaster accent" used throughout the entertainment industry.

:As for Wikipedia, they referred to this accent as [[Wikipedia:Standard Midwestern|Standard Midwestern]] until last February. It was then [[Wikipedia:Talk:General American#move to "General American"?|moved]] to [[Wikipedia:General American|General American]] based on [[Wikipedia:User:Angr|User:Angr]]'s statement that "the accent is not standard in any official sense, nor is it limited to the Midwest."

:Since they are serving as our primary reference, I am inclined to follow their conventions on the matter. Perhaps you could take up your point with them? I realize that we are not powerless to employ our own terminology, but consistancy strikes me as a self-evident virtue. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:31, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:: Sigh. General American bothers me. I'd ''much'' prefer Standard American English. I mean--that's a term that linguists use when discussing American accents. I wish Wikipedia had a page entitled that, but I don't want to get into a land war there (or, really anything there as time is finite). A few things have to be understood about SAE (or, as it stands, General English):

:: 1) It doesn't really exist as a spoken dialect. No one grows up learning SAE the way one can grow up speaking Texan English or any of the various sub-dialects of AAVE or whatever. However, Americans seem to be able to sense what it is. This is still under research.

:: 2) When used in a non-scholastic setting (like this wiki), saying someone speaks SAE generally means that the region they learned English in is not identifyable by the way they speak. Apollo speaks SAE, for instance. However, Jamie Baber or however it's spellt, is British and really speaks some form of British English dialect (I've not heard him speak myself).

:: With these two trhings in mind, using a term like SAE to refer to dislects of characters is perfectly fine. I mean--the dialect is a kind of mental construct and so doesn't really exist and the characters, likewise, don't really exist. ;) Okay. That was a joke. My problem with the term "General American" is that I've never seen it before in a linguistic context. "Standard American English" is a term used in all caps like that in many texts by various authors. I'm tired and I think I'm losing coherancy. Does my point about, for lack of a better word, officialness come across clearly? I sure hope so. --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:04, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

:::I would be happy to have the relevant links marked as Standard American English and go to Wiki's General American article through pipes. The term General American was introduced on October 8th by [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] - I'd like to know if he is personally in favor of the term, or was just matching wikipedia's terminology. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:09, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

==Sanskrit to do==
*Link to credible text repository & audio recording.
*Transliterate Sanskrit properly, using IAST. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:53, 14 November 2005 (EST)

Hopefully the Don Davis sources may be of help to others in further translation from his Matrix Revolutions tracks (noted in our article now). Enlightening stuff--I use the "Navras" track and its chant in my daily workouts--gets my heart rate up. I was wondering why Elosha's chant seemed so damned familiar, and now I know why. Wild how my favorite SF topics and music merge like this. Speaking of which, I think a music article on BSG will be due sometime... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:09, 14 November 2005 (EST)

:Am I the only one who finds this matrix stuff to be badly off-topic? Davis's transliteration isn't very good, either. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:04, 14 November 2005 (EST)

::I'm going to strike this. If anyone wants to make a note of the coincidence on the references page, that would be fine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:12, 14 November 2005 (EST)

==Other Accents==
:What about all of the Canadian accents? I'm no linguist, but the way Tigh speaks sounds very different to the way Adama speaks. Besides, many characters on the show are played by Canadian actors like Aaron Douglas, Tricia Helfer, and Tahmoh Penikett, each with varying degrees of accent. --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:51, 17 January 2006 (EST)

::Many Canadian accents are very similar to the Midwestern SAE used in Hollywood. If you can name a character with a particularly strong accent, I'd be happy to identify them here, but Hogan, Douglas, Helfer and Penikett don't seem to fit the bill.

::Note that place of origin and accent do not necessarily coincide - nobody would claim that Lee Adama speaks with a British Accent, although Jamie Bamber certainly does. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:32, 17 January 2006 (EST)

:::I've always felt that Hogan's accent is somewhat obvious, but again, I'm not much experienced with Canadian-accented English. (I only know two or three Canadians myself.) Besides, you make a good point: even if Hogan's accent ''is'' strong enough to be considered noticable, it is no where near as different from SAE as, say, Baltar's. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 21:35, 17 January 2006 (EST)

User:Drumstick

2006-01-18T00:57:07Z

Drumstick:

woot

Talk:Language in the Twelve Colonies/Archive3

2006-01-18T00:51:59Z

Drumstick:

Awards and Honors (RDM)

2006-01-18T00:34:02Z

Drumstick: Added quote from Olmos about awards at the top

''I didn't get into this business to get awards or get acclamation. I did it because I was searching for my own sense of who I was as a human being.... ''

::::---Edward James Olmos, [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/bts/interviews/olmos_QA.html Scifi.com] interview

Nevertheless, This article lists any '''awards, nominations or honors''' received by the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|re-imagined ''Battlestar Galactica'']] episodes, its cast or crew.

==[[Wikipedia:Emmy Award|Emmy Award]] Nominations or Wins==

===2004 Emmy Awards===
*Nominated: [[Mini-Series]] for '''Outstanding Single-Camera Picture Editing for a Miniseries, Movie or a Special'''

===2005 Emmy Awards===
*Nominated: The first season premiere episode, "[[33]]", for '''Outstanding Special Visual Effects For A Series'''
*Nominated: The episode "[[The Hand of God]]" for '''Outstanding Special Visual Effects For A Series'''

==Hugo Awards==

The '''Hugo Award''' is presented each year in recognition of outstanding work in science fiction.

===2005 Hugo Awards===
*'''Winner''': The first season premiere episode, "[[33]]", for '''Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form'''

==[http://www.vesawards.com/ Visual Effects Society Awards]==

===2004 2nd Annual VES Awards===
*Winner: [[Zoic|Zoic Studios]] for Outstanding Visual Effects in a Television Miniseries, Movie or a Special, [[Mini-Series]]
*Nominated: Zoic Studios for '''Outstanding Compositing in a Televised Program, Music Video or Commercial''', Mini-Series

===2005 3rd Annual VES Awards===
*Nominated: Zoic Studios for '''Outstanding Performance by an Animated Character in a Live Action Broadcast Program''', [[33|Episode 101]], "[[Cylon Centurion|Cylon Character]]"

==[http://www.saturnawards.org/index.html The Academy of Science Fiction Fantasy & Horror Films Awards]==

===2004 30th Annual Awards===
*Nominated: [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar Galactica]] TV Series, Sci-Fi Channel, for '''Best Television Presentation'''
*Nominated: [[Katee Sackhoff]] for '''Best Supporting Actress in a Television Series'''
*Nominated: [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|"Battlestar Galactica]] Complete Epic Series" DVD Collection, for '''Best DVD Television Release'''

==See Also==

[http://www.emmys.tv/ The Academy of Television Arts & Sciences], home of the Emmy Awards

[http://www.wsfs.org/hugos.html The Hugo Awards] information from the World Science Fiction Society, its official servicemark holder

[http://www.vesawards.com/ The Visual Effects Society Awards]

[[Category: A to Z]] [[Category: Lists]]
[[Category: RDM]][[Category: Behind the Scenes]]

Battlestar Galactica (TRS)

2006-01-18T00:20:54Z

Drumstick: /* Directors */ added Resurrection Ship Part 1 and 2

{{shortcut|TNS}}
{{shortcut|TRS}}

A re-imagining of the original ''Battlestar Galactica'', currently in its second season.

==Summary==
Considered a "[[re-imagining]]", this series is a version of the 1970s ''Battlestar Galactica'' made more suitable to the sensibilities of the 21st Century. Tackling issues of civil rights, survival, terrorism, and religion, ''Battlestar Galactica'' is an epic following the survivors of the human race -- which number under 50,000. The ''[[Galactica]]'' finds herself leading a rag-tag refugee fleet on a lonely (and quite possibly, ficticious) quest for [[Earth]], with turmoil from within and danger from without.

==Cast==
===Stars===
* [[Olmos, Edward James|Edward James Olmos]] as [[Adama, William|Commander William Adama]]
* [[McDonnell, Mary|Mary McDonnell]] as [[Roslin, Laura|President Laura Roslin]]
* [[Sackhoff, Katee|Katee Sackhoff]] as [[Thrace, Kara|Lieutenant Kara "Starbuck" Thrace]]
* [[Bamber, Jamie|Jamie Bamber]] as [[Lee Adama|Captain Lee "Apollo" Adama]]
* [[Callis, James|Jame Callis]] as [[Baltar, Gaius|Doctor Gaius Baltar]]
* [[Helfer, Tricia|Tricia Helfer]] as [[Number Six]]
* [[Park, Grace|Grace Park]] as [[Valerii, Sharon|Sharon Valerii]]
===Co-stars===
* [[Hogan, Michael|Michael Hogan]] as [[Tigh, Saul|Colonel Tigh]]
* [[Douglas, Aaron|Aaron Douglas]] as [[Tyrol, Galen|CPO Tyrol]]
* [[Penikett, Tahmoh|Tahmoh Penikett]] as [[Agathon, Karl C.|Lieutenat Karl "Helo" Agathon]]
* [[McClure, Kandyse|Kandyse McClure]] as [[Dualla|Petty Officer 2nd Class Dualla]]
* [[Campbell, Paul|Paul Campbell]] as [[Keikeya, Billy|Billy Keikeya]]
* [[Juliani, Alessandro|Alessandro Juliani]] as [[Lieutenant Gaeta]]
* [[Witwer, Samuel|Samual Witwer]] as [[Crashdown]]

==Production Crew==
===Producers===
* [[Moore, Ronald D.|Ronald D. Moore]] - Developer / Executive Producer / Writer
* [[Eick, David|David Eick]] - Executive Producer
* [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Toni+Graphia Toni Graphia] - Co-Executive Producer / Writer
* [[Frand, Harvey|Harvey Frand]] - Producer
* [[Larson, Glen A.|Glen A. Larson]] - Consulting Producer

===Directors===
* [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Marita+Grabiak Marita Grabiak] (episode 1.02 "Water")
* [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Rod+Hardy Rod Hardy] (episode 1.04 "Act of Contrition") (episode 1.06 "Litmus") (episode 2.05 "Farm, The")
* [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Alan+Kroeker Alan Kroeker] (episode 1.03 "Bastille Day") (episode 2.04 "Resistance")
* [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Sergio+Mimica-Gezzan Sergio Mimica-Gezzan] (episode 1.05 "You Can't Go Home Again") (episode 2.03 "Fragged") (episode 2.06 "Home: Part 1") (episode 2.17 "The Captain's Hand")
* [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Michael+Nankin Michael Nankin] (episode 2.09 "Flight of the Phoenix")
* [[Olmos, Edward James|Edward James Olmos]] (episode 1.09 "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down")
* [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Jonas+Pate Jonas Pate] (episode 1.11 "Colonial Day")
* [[Rymer, Michael|Michael Rymer]] (episode 1.00 "Miniseries") (episode 1.01 "33") (episode 1.12 "Kobol's Last Gleaming: Part 1") (episode 1.13 "Kobol's Last Gleaming: Part 2") (episode 2.01 "Scattered") (episode 2.02 "Valley of Darkness") (episode 2.10 "Pegasus") (episode 2.11 "Resurrection Ship, Part 1") (episode 2.12 "Resurrection Ship, Part 2")
* [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Jeff+Woolnough Jeff Woolnough] (episode 1.10 "Hand of God, The") (episode 2.07 "Home: Part 2")
* [http://us.imdb.com/m/person-exact?+Robert+Young Robert Young] (episode 1.07 "Six Degrees of Seperation, epi 2.08 "Final Cut")

===Writing Staff===
* [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Sergio+Mimica-Gezzan Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]
* [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Carla+Robinson Carla Robinson]
* [[Bradley Thompson]]
* [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Brad+Turner Brad Turner]
* [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Jeff+Vlaming Jeff Vlaming]
* [[David Weddle]]
* [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Robert+Young Robert Young]

==Episodes==
*[[Mini-Series]] (2003)
===Season 1 (2004-05)===
*1.01 [[33]]
*1.02 [[Water]]
*1.03 [[Bastille Day]]
*1.04 [[Act of Contrition]]
*1.05 [[You Can't Go Home Again]]
*1.06 [[Litmus]]
*1.07 [[Six Degrees of Separation]]
*1.08 [[Flesh and Bone]]
*1.09 [[Secrets and Lies]] (aka: [[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]])
*1.10 [[The Hand of God]]
*1.11 [[Colonial Day]]
*1.12 [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]
*1.13 [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]
===Season 2 (2005-06)===
*2.01 [[Scattered]]
*2.02 [[Valley of Darkness]]
*2.03 [[Fragged]]
*2.04 [[Resistance]]
*2.05 [[The Farm]]
*2.06 [[Home, Part I]]
*2.07 [[Home, Part II]]
*2.08 [[Final Cut]]
*2.09 [[Flight of the Phoenix]]
*2.10 [[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]
*2.11 [[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]
*2.12 [[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]
*2.13 [[Epiphanies]]
*2.14 [[Sacrifice]]
*2.15 [[Black Market]]
*2.16 [[Scar]]
*2.17 [[The Captain's Hand]]
*2.18 [[Downloaded]]
*2.19 [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]
*2.20 [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]

== Official Statements ==

* ''"Apart from the fleet, is there any chance that there are other survivers? Clearly ''[[Colonial One]]'' would not have gotten to every ship that was in transit and those that had [[FTL]] could have escaped as well."''

:We are talking about shows that deal with other survivors right now. Don't ask about the [[Pegasus]] -- I [still] haven't made up my mind yet.

* ''"Will we see any of the [[:Category:Cast (TOS)|origonal cast (sic)]] appart from [[Richard Hatch]]? "''

: It's possible, but not yet on the board. -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

* ''"Why [[frak|"frack" (sic)]]? Where did the idea come from to make this the new F-word? Not that I don't like it, I find it amusing."''

: It's straight out of the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|original series]]. I dropped many other terms from the old show like "[[centon]]" (a unit of measurement) and "[[yahren]]" (year) because I felt they distracted from the mood I was trying to create and they sounded a bit silly to my ear. There was something elegantly lovely about "[[frak]]," however. There's nothing like being able to say my favorite four letter word on TV over and over again and I salute [[Glen Larson]] for giving the joys of frakking up, frakking off, not giving a frak, and frakking-A to the masses. -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

* ''"Why does the doctor smoke?"''

:Because smoking is cool. Don't let anyone tell you different, kid.

:Seriously, we're showing people doing what people really do and not all of their choices are smart ones. We smoke, we drink, we have sex with the wrong partners -- we make lots of bad choices and some of them we do knowingly and in full cognizance of the risks and consequences. Dr. [[Cottle]] obviously knows the risks associated with smoking and he elects to do it anyway -- that's his choice.

:I'm also frankly tired of all the anti-smoking p.c. crap that we're bombarded with these days and I decided that this was a world without all that. Call it my one sop to the idea of an idealized society, the notion that adults can make informed choices and not be nagged to death or run out of public spaces for making choices that others may not like or agree with. -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

* ''"What is the rank structure? It doesn't seem consistant with the Navy."''

:The rank structure is derived from the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|original series]]. I didn't want to change Commander [[William Adama|Adama]] to Captain Adama or Colonel [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] to Commander Tigh, so I elected to simply embrace the co-mingled nature of the original rank structure. For our internal purposes, we've decided that the ranks are indeed a mixture of naval and army nomenclature and are basically as follows:

:'''Officers''' --
:Admiral
:Commander
:Colonel
:Major
:Captain
:Lieutenant
:Lieutenant (junior grade)
:Ensign

:'''Enlisted''' --
:Master Chief Petty Officer
:Chief Petty Officer
:Petty Officer (1st, 2nd Class)
:Specialist
:Deck Hand
:Recruit

:Just to complicate matters further, there are also [[Marines]] aboard ''[[Galactica]]'' which conform more closely to the traditional enlisted Marine ranks, with Sergeants, Sergeant-Majors, etc. Unresolved is the question of whether the Marine officers would also adhere to the mixed rank structure (which sounds odd) or if they are strictly army equivalents (which makes no sense given that the "Navy" ranks seem oblivious to there being any such distinction). Aren't you glad you asked? -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

* ''"Will we see the mess hall and other parts of the ship such as the main Kitchen where all the meals are prepared?"''

:I'd like to. It's a question of budget; there has to be a story point or scene so cool that we just have to build this set. The Head (bathroom to you lubbers) was built in the [[33|pilot]] specifically so we'd have it around during the series. -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

* ''"Was this the first show to ever show a bathroom on a space ship?"''

:It's ground-breaking TV, baby. Talk about reinventing the genre. -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

:'''Note:''' While we are uncertain as to what show as the "first" to show a bathroom on a space ship, we know that this series was not the first to do so. One of the few shows prior to ''Battlestar'' to show a bathroom was, in fact, a second season episode of ''Babylon 5''.

* ''"Minor question: was [[Galactica]] ever re-commissioned? As I recall, the ship was decommissioned right before the [[Cylon attack]]. It'd be nice to show the ceremony if they ever get a free moment."''

:It's an interesting point. Might be something to play at some point, but more really as an "Oh, I haven't thought about it, but..." kind of thing. -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

* ''"The question I would really like to see addressed is how to reconcile the underlying quest of ''Battlestar Galactica'' with actual scientific plausiability. The quest of Battlestar Galactica is to find [[Earth]], the 13th Colony. However, it is a basic and well-substantiated tenet of science that human life here on Earth evolved slowly from a primate ancestor. Attempts to deny evolution based on the notion that human kind deserves a far more worthy origin than what evolution details, are a diservice to the pursuit of scientific truth and endeavors in our own world. There was always that reactionary sense to the original series, which drove it away from a secure standing as *science* fiction. How will the new series avoid this pitfall?"''

:I don't have a direct answer for this question yet. There are a couple of notions rolling around in my head as to how we reconcile the very real fact of evolution with the ''Galactica'' mythos, but I haven't decided which approach to take. However, it was a fundamental element of the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|orginal (sic) ''Galactica'']] mythos that "Life here began out there..." and I decided early on that it was crucial to maintain it. -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

*''"How did you come to decide upon [[Edward James Olmos]] and [[Mary McDonnell]] for their roles? This kind of project seems somewhat out of their typical genre - did either have second thoughts about taking on the project?"''

:Eddie and Mary were actually the archetypes for the characters when we were developing the series. [[Eick, David|David Eick]] and I used to sit around and talk about what kind of actors would play [[Adama, William|Adama]] and [[Roslin, Laura|Laura]] and we always talked about these two Oscar level actors as our dream duo for the series, but we never really thought we'd get them. They've told the story themselves of why they decided to do the project, but in essence, they really responded to the [[Mini-Series|pilot script]] and saw a lot of potential in the characters so they went for it, to our everlasting gratitude. -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

* "Are you using military advisors and if so, from what branch?"

:We don't have a full time military advisor on staff. However, we did have [[Blecker, Ron|an advisor]] on set during the miniseries, who also put the principal actors through a "boot camp" before shooting. I can't honestly remember his name or service branch (sorry if you're reading this!) As far as the scripts go, [[Bradley Thompson]], [[David Weddle]], and I provide a lot of the military technical details based on our own knowledge base. -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

* ''"I'll second the question - why is it that the paper in the Galactica universe has the corners cut off, even the tractor fed printer sheets! i just want to know."''

:This is a closely guarded secret of the show and certainly not a wacky design element that someone came up with during the [[Mini-Series|miniseries]]. -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

:'''Note:''' It has been admitted by some of the production staff that this is, more or less, a joke that went overboard -- namely one derived from the fact that corners had to be cut in order to keep within the budget for the mini. -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

* ''"You mentioned that the reason that the ''[[Galactica]]'' was so low-tech was that it was designed to fight the [[Cylons]], who could possibly infiltrate it's systems, and that this was one of the reasons it survived. If that is so, then who were the other ships designed to fight? The 120 ships alluded to are a big force just for border patrol. Are there aliens we should know about? "''

:The first [[Cylon War]] came very close to wiping out the [[Colonies]], and so when the [[Cimtar Peace Accord|Armistice]] was declared, the government maintained a large standing military force for quite some time, just in case. -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

*''"Mythos. Every science fiction show that stands the test of time needs to develop its own Mythos. By this I mean, its own unique cultural identity. For instance ''Star Wars'' has its Jedi, its Force; ''Star Trek'' has its Prime directive, beaming, and warps (sic) speed. As a writer you are aware of this and having worked in the ''Star Trek'' franchise are rather qualified in it. What will are your thoughts and insights into the development of Mythos in this new BSG child that you are tending to and caring for? Especially, since there seems to be heavy pressure to incorporate the original mythos themes of the show, will this be a guiding blueprint for thought, or just a framework to create? "''

:The mythology of the new ''Galactica'' is heavily influenced by that established in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|original]]. I've always approached this project with an eye toward taking the original material and making it work in a new context. I still try to do this whenever possible. Does it make sense that there would be a star system with [[Twelve Colonies|12 inhabitable planets]]? Not really, but that was in the original and at some point I decided to run with that as another nod to the old show. The mythology of the old show centered around [[Kobol]] and the thirteen "tribes of man," so I've kept it as the centerpiece of ours. Not every single element is the same and not every element is even intact, but the roots are there. The point was to make another version of ''Battlestar Galactica'', not just use the name. -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

* ''"I was watching ''Wing Commander'' last night with my wife and she made a comment that the Kilrathi fighter looked pretty similar to the Cylon Raider. I know that some of the production staff from Wing Commander went on to begin production on the [[Tom DeSanto|DeSanto]] continuation, but is there in fact any sort of link here? I mean I first thought Droid Fighter from ''Star Wars: Episode One'', but that seems to be some kind of common design going on. "''

:"Wing Commander" is frequently mentioned to me as a possible influence on the show, but I've never actually seen it. While it's possible that other members of the production team were influenced by it, it wasn't something that figured into my thinking. My own design influences were things like "Das Boot" "Blade Runner" "Alien/Aliens" and a stack of documentaries on the modern and history US and Royal Navies.

*''"My questions: Can the show explain a little more about their technology, for example how fast are the [[FTL]] jumps. It seems the fleet barely moves when not jumping, if the jumps are only light speed and not multiples of, some of the sublight ships could conceivably catch up (the ones not destroyed by cylons)"''

:An [[FTL]] Jump is nearly instantaneous, essentially moving a ship from point A to point B without travelling through the normal space-time continuum, presumably by bending space around the ship in some way. The analogy I used during production was to imagine three dimensional space as a flat piece of two dimensional paper. To get from one side to the other, you can travel in a straight line across the page, or you can gently bend the sheet in half and cross from edge to edge virtually instantly. How this is accomplished and what is the basis of this technology outstrips my technical brainpower.

:In fact, I feel faint just coming up with that explanation... -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

* ''"Did the [[Twelve Colonies|colonies]] have outposts, bases, or trade partners outside of the 12 colonies. Did they even explore other systems. The colonies could have had observatories, listening posts, or even scientific research teams exploring other planets beyond the colonial system(s). They could encounter any of these which could lead to supplies, raw materials, food, fuel etc. "''

:I think that's probably true, but part of our premise is that the fleet has Jumped far out into unexplored space in an effort to elude the [[Cylons]], so we won't be encountered any other outposts or colonies. -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

*''"Are there any similarities between your reconception of the BG universe and where you might have gone if you'd been given the reigns of ''Voyager''?"''

:There are similiarities in the premise of the two shows, so yes, there are things I'm applying here that I would've like to have done in [Star Trek:] ''Voyager'', i.e., lack of resources, the development of unique cultural and civil institutions, and internal strife among people trapped aboard ship(s) without any reasonable hope of finding sanctuary anytime soon. -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

*''"I have a friend who has a son and they both enjoy watching the new ''Battlestar Galactica''. But it is a very frustrating thing when he cannot allow his son watch the show when there are sex scenes and constant sexual innuendo scattered throughout the episodes.

:"The standard of the stories are superb and I would have to say it is one of the finest sci fi series I have seen in a long time. BUT IT DOESNT NEED SEX TO GET THE VIEWERS. Call me a little old fashioned but I nor others that I know really appreciate having to endure sex scenes that really do not further the story in any significant way. In fact I think they are rather pointless."''

:First of all, I'm sorry your friend can't watch the show with his son, but I always intended this series to be for adults. I have two small children, and I wouldn't dream of letting them watch the show -- mostly because of the violent content. Second of all, I disagree that the sexuality is intended to be exploitative or that it's somehow not integral to the story. We're presenting adult human beings as adults, and their sexuality is a key part of their lives. [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]]'s sexual weaknesses, [[Sharon Valerii|Sharon]] & [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]]'s forbidden love affair, and [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]]'s promiscuity are part of who and what they are. I think the only reason this gets the kind of attention is does is that we're not used to seeing sex treated maturely in science fiction -- nine times out of ten, any sex is either something to snigger at or to make fun of. Somehow it's okay to fetishize sex by putting women in S&M leather "space" outfits or have Carrie Fisher run around in harem clothes (not that there's anything wrong with that), but to portray two mature adults simply having sex is somehow controversial in sci-fi circles.

:I'd also point out, as I have many times before, the strange standards of American audiences, who can become red-faced with indignation over nudity, but find no problem with slasher films or chains-saw massacres. I mean, ''Galactica'''s premised on a massive genocide, and [[Mini-Series|the pilot]] deals with violent, shocking deaths over and over again, but people get upset about the sex? Weird.... -- {{from_RDM_blog}}

* Regarding the financial cost per episode of ''Battlestar'': "I can tell you that it’s well over one-and-a-half million dollars US per episode. It’s a substantial budget, especially when you convert it into Canadian dollars—and what we’re able to get up there—it’s a lot of money." [http://www.hollywoodnorthreport.com/pages/galactica/fashioningverisimilitude3.htm]

* ''Regarding a typical day as an executive producer on ''Battlestar'':''

: The job changes as the year goes on. Right now, before we start shooting, my time is spent almost exclusively here with the writing staff. I’m writing an episode at the moment. I wrote the first episode and I’m writing the second one. The writers meet by themselves…they break some stories…I come in and give notes…and we talk about directions for other episodes. Then, as time goes on, they’ll start generating scripts and stories, and I give notes on those. I’m also taking notes from the network and the studio on previous existing material.

: There’ll also be more of me going back and forth between LA and Vancouver. And as we get closer to production, then there’ll be more looking at production designs, dealing with budgetary issues, having meetings with directors and actors, looking at casting tapes for guest-star roles. Once we get into production and start generating film, there’s dailies to watch…post moves forward and there’s cuts of episodes to watch…and there’s visual effects sequences to give notes on.

: There’s not really a typical day, per say. You have to be nimble and on your feet and able to keep changing direction. You have to cover all these different bases, and sometimes you can’t run to first. Sometimes you have to run to third, and then run back home, and then run to second. It’s never a complete pattern.

: I believe very much in delegating authority to the department heads, in empowering people and having them take responsibility for the work. My principal job is to maintain the overall vision of the piece. [http://www.hollywoodnorthreport.com/pages/galactica/fashioningverisimilitude3.htm]

* From the "Fashioning Verisimilitude" article / interview on [http://www.hollywoodnorthreport.com Hollywood North Report (HNR)]:

: '''Robert Falconer:''' And I guess the whole concept of the show, by definition, is that of a bottle show.

: '''Ron Moore:''' Yeah. And it was designed that way from the get-go. When [[David Eick]] and I went in and pitched it initially—knowing how expensive space opera can be—we designed it to be affordable on what we could get on a SCI-FI Channel budget. [http://www.hollywoodnorthreport.com/pages/galactica/fashioningverisimilitude3.htm]

* ''Regarding the use of bullets versus lasers on the [[Viper (RDM)|Vipers]], as explained by [[Ron Moore]]:''

: [The bullets are s]ome sort of caseless ammunition. We had long technical discussions about some of this. What mattered to us was that they weren’t laser blasts. We just felt that had been done to death, it wasn’t as interesting, and it wasn’t realistic. From our research we discovered that such weapons would take huge amounts of energy, and that fighters would probably be better served by using actual bullets. But presumably they’re more advanced than what we’re using today, although we haven’t actually sat down and defined them as such. [http://www.hollywoodnorthreport.com/pages/galactica/fashioningverisimilitude5.htm]

* ''Regarding the reconciliation between [[William Adama]] and his son [[Lee Adama]] at the end of the [[Mini-Series]], as explained by [[Ron Moore]]:''

: I think it will go up and it will go down, like any father-son dynamic does. I think they bridged a gap in the miniseries that certainly had held them apart for a couple of years. I don’t think that issue has been completely resolved, but they’ve moved past it to a certain point. Now they’re in a new relationship and a new dynamic…they’re father and son and they’re also serving on the same ship, and the stresses and pressures of that will affect the relationship. I think it’s interesting that Lee Adama has a strong relationship with [[Laura Roslin|Laura]], and that he in some respects is a bridge between her and his father. [http://www.hollywoodnorthreport.com/pages/galactica/fashioningverisimilitude5.htm]

* '''Edward James Olmos''': The stories are just, really, stunning. I have wept reading this thing, I have been left amazed and I've been left totally in awe. {{ref|BSG_2.0_DVD}}

== See Also ==

*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_science_fiction A description on Wikipedia on naturalistic SF] concepts used in the series

== References ==

* {{note|BSG_2.0_DVD}} [[Battlestar Galactica: Season 2.0]], the Region 1 DVD

==Related Topics==
* [[List of Season 1 Guest Actors (RDM)]]
* [[List of Season 2 Guest Actors (RDM)]]
* [[List of Recurring Characters (RDM)]]
* [[List of Recurring Character Appearances (RDM)]]
* [[List of Emmy Nominations and Wins]]

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Behind the Scenes]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Flesh and Bone

2006-01-16T21:11:36Z

Drumstick: Tyrol actor was listed simply as "Douglas," added first name

{{Episode Data|
Image =[[Image:bsg-1-08.jpg|200px]]
| Title=Flesh and Bone
| Series=[[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|the Re-imagined Series]]
| Season=[[Season 1 (2004-05)|1]]
| Episode=8
| Guests=[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Michael+Hogan Michael Hogan] (COL [[Saul Tigh]]) [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Tahmoh+Penikett Tahmoh Penikett] ([[Karl Agathon|Helo]]) [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Aaron+Douglas Aaron Douglas] (CPO [[Galen Tyrol]]) ([[Callum Keith Rennie]] ([[Leoben Conoy]]) ([[Matthew Bennett]] ([[Aaron Doral]]) [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Christina+Schild Christina Schild] ([[Playa Kohn]]) ([[Biski Gugushe]] ([[Sekou Hamilton]]) [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Eric+Breker Eric Breker] (Gemenon Traveller Captain)
| Writer=[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Toni+Graphia Toni Graphia]
| Story=
| Director=[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Brad+Turner Brad Turner]
| Production=
| Rating=
| US Airdate=February 25 2005
| UK Airdate=November 22 2004
| DVD=March 28, 2005 (UK)
| Prev=[[Six Degrees of Separation]]
| Next=[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down|Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]
}}

== Overview ==

: ''When a copy of [[Leoben Conoy]] is captured aboard a civilian ship, [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]] orders he is to be interrogated, and [[Kara Thrace|Lieutenant Thrace]] is assigned the job. She finds herself facing the possibility that Conoy may have planted a bomb somewhere in the fleet.''

== Summary ==
* [[Laura Roslin]] has a [[Chamalla]]-induced dream in which she sees [[Leoben Conoy]]. She is awakened by [[Billy Keikeya|Billy]], who informs her a [[Humano-Cylon|Cylon]] has been captured aboard the ''[[Gemenon Traveller]]''.
* The Cylon turns out to be Leoben Conoy, and while [[William Adama|Adama]] wants him destroyed, Roslin insists he is interrogated.
* [[Kara Thrace]] is assigned the interrogation task. Meeting with her, Adama warns her that Conoy cannot be trusted. Not that he lies, but rather he twists everything into half-truths and masks fiction with the veneer of truth.
* They briefly discuss the [[Cylon Raider]] Starbuck is still working on ([[You Can’t Go Home Again]], [[Six Degrees of Separation]]), and Starbuck informs him good progress is being made: the avionics are now understood, and they are focusing on the [[FTL]] systems.
* Later, [[Sharon Valerii]] visits the Raider for a second time (the first being in [[Six Degrees of Separation]]), and appears to comfort it by humming.
* [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] arrives, and she asks if her previous comments help. He confirms they did, and asks how she came up with the idea. She claims it’s because she’s a Cylon -- something Tyrol doesn’t find remotely funny
* Elsewhere, Thrace travels by Raptor to the ''Gememon Traveller''. Once there, she observes Conoy, noting that he is sweating, before she enters the room in which he is being held, wanting to know what he is doing with his head on the table.
* Conoy claims to have been praying. Their religious differences are immediately outlined as she refers to “gods”, he to “God”.
* When he starts playing games with her over names, she tries to walk out – and Conoy reveals he knows who she is, which stops her. He then claims to have hidden a nuclear warhead somewhere in the fleet, which will go off in just under nine hours.
* Shaken by the fact he knows her name, Starbuck reports the news on the bomb to Adama and Roslin. Adama orders [[Radiological Alarm|radiological]] searches to be made aboard all ships and tries to reassure Starbuck that Conoy could have learned her name from anywhere.
* When she returns to the holding area, Conoy continues to question her about her beliefs, outlining the key difference between humans and their religion and Cylons. A meal arrives for Starbuck and she eats, allowing Conoy to finish what is left.
* As he finishes the food, a systematic beating commences, Starbuck convinced that because he is programmed to act completely like a human, Conoy will be forced to react like a human, take the beating until the pain forces him to start talking.
* As this starts, Boomer visits [[Gaius Baltar]] in his lab and demands he runs a test on her to determine whether or not she is human. Baltar is reluctant to do so, but [[Number Six|Six]] prompts him into doing it.
* Conoy’s beating fails to get him to talk about the bomb, only to talk more about God. As the subject of water has formed a lot of his analogies, Starbuck opts to up the torture by using it, and sends the guards from the room.
* When they are gone, Conoy demonstrates his supernatural strength, breaking the chains that bind his wrists and pins Thrace to the wall. He could kill her, but he doesn’t – he has something to tell her, soon. A surprise.
* On ''Galactica'', Adama visits the cadaver of the Conoy he encountered at [[Ragnar Anchorage]] ([[Mini-Series]]), his rage almost causing him to beat the body with a telephone handset.
* On the ''Traveller'', Starbuck commences sessions that involve holding Conoy’s head underwater for increasingly lengthy periods to try and get him to talk – convinced that he is too far from Cylon influence to transfer his consciousness to another body, should this one die.
* Conoy talks – about Starbucks’s childhood and upbringing, demonstrating he somehow knows an lot about her. The duckings continue.
* Baltar finishes a scan on a blood sample from Boomer – it confirms she is a Cylon. Terrified of what will happen if he tells her, he fakes the result to look human.
* In her private quarters on ''[[Colonial One]]'', Roslin has another vision of Conoy, prompting her to order a shuttle to take her to the ''Gememon Traveller''
* On the ''Traveller'', Starbuck halts the water torture and Conoy reveals his surprise to her: the humans will find [[Kobol]], and Kobol will lead them to [[Earth]]. What’s more, Starbuck’s specific role is to deliver his soul to God.
* At that moment, Roslin arrives and puts a stop to the torture, as it has failed to reveal the location of the bomb.
* When Conoy has been cleaned up and dried off, she tries to reason with him, and he confesses there is no bomb; grabbing her, he whispers that Adama is a Cylon.
* Shocked by this, but her mind made up, Roslin has him ejected into space – fulfilling the sequence of events in her dream.
* Later, on the ''Galactica'', Starbuck prays for Conoy’s soul, while Roslin meets with Adama, Conoy's words clearly having cast doubts deep in her mind.

===On Caprica===
* After sleeping with [[Karl C. Agathon|Helo]], [[Sharon Valerii#Caprica Valerii|Valerii]] meets with [[Aaron Doral|Doral]] and [[Number Six|Six]] and informs them of developments.
* Doral informs her that a little love nest is being set-up nearby. Six adds that she must lead Helo to it and keep him there – or kill him.
* Reacting to the instructions, Valerii returns to Helo – and goes on the run with him, leading him away from her Cylon colleagues.

== Summary from SciFi.com ==

A Cylon, who calls himself Leobon, is discovered on one of the ships in the fleet. Commander Adama sends Kara to interrogate him — or, rather, it. The Cylon tells Kara that he planted a nuclear device on one of the ships. Although she doesn't believe it, Kara passes on the warning.

As her colleagues search for the device, Kara engages Leobon in a battle of wills. Theological debates about souls and the humanity of Cylons lead to mind games, threats, and, ultimately, torture. Taking a personal interest in what Leobon has to say, President Roslin joins the interrogation.

On Galactica, Sharon asks Baltar to try out his new Cylon-detecting technology on her.

Meanwhile, on far-off Caprica, another Sharon conspires with her Cylon associates Doral and Number Six to convince Helo to remain on the planet and start a new life.
-- This section ©2005, [http://www.scifi.com SCI FI]. All rights reserved.

== Questions ==
*Is Conoy's comment to [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] concerning [[Kobol]] meant personally - that ''she'' will find Kobol - or at least recognise it for what it really is? ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I|Apparently not]])
*How will Roslin react to Conoy's claim about Adama? She has already demonstrated a willingness to readily accept the worst about a person without proof (her reaction to [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar's]] situation in [[Six Degrees of Separation]]). ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down|Answer]])
*Why is love so vital to the [[Cylons]]? ([[The Farm|Answer]], plus Cylons believe that "God is love")
*Was [[Troy]] destroyed in an genuine accident, making it a convenient "cover" for the Cylons to create [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer's]] "history", or were they responsible for the destruction of the colony? (A moot question since [[Humano-Cylon#Are There Twelve Human Models?|Sharon Valerii was never an actual human]])
*Other than [[Silica Pathways]] and the substance discovered by Gaius Baltar in the cremation process of the genetic material of a [[Humano-Cylon]], are there any other major differences between them and humans? (Answer: They have super-strength, as shown in the Mini-Series and this episode, and [[Flight of the Phoenix|an ability to interface their bodies with electronic devices]])
*Why does Roslin run towards [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]] and away from the [[Marines]] in her dream? She already knows what he looks like from the press conference in [[Litmus]].

== Analysis ==
“Flesh and Bone” is another tremendously powerful story to come out of the season one arc. It is the first time that everything meshes with a synchronicity that is simply awesome: season arc development, episode arc, character growth, character revelations, religious insights, Cylon and human motivations – all combine into 42 minutes of magnetic television.

As usual, the featured actors turn in outstanding performances, with [[Mary McDonnell]] again adding depth and vulnerability to Laura Roslin. Is the President’s hardened attitude a result of her on-going adjustment to the plight of the Colonials, a direct reflection of her growing determination to beat her cancer, or a result of her acceptance that life for her may not be as rich and as full as she may once have hoped? Or is it a combination of all three? Whatever the underpinning reasons, the last few episodes have seen Roslin develop the kind of hard shell one would expect of a leader in her position; and McDonnell’s portrayal of Roslin as she goes through this transition has been outstanding.

[[Katee Sackhoff]] also shines in this episode – alongside [[Callum Keith Rennie]], she has the most time on screen – and she again shows that for a relatively young actress, she has a broad range and depth. At every turn, Thrace’s over-confidence, her flippancy, her inborn doubts, her fear of failure, of being found out – all are so perfectly portrayed through word, look and attitude.
But the accolades this week go not to a regular member of the cast, but to Callum Keith Rennie for his portrayal of Leoben Conoy.

Rennie is perhaps best remembered for the (also Canadian-filmed) series “Due South”. At the time, he did not impress – although to be fair, he was trying to fill David Marciano’s considerable shoes. Even so, his appearance in the ''Battlestar Galactica'' mini-series also fails to engage.

But in “Flesh and Bone”, Callum Keith Rennie proves the faith the producers clearly had in him. His personification of Conoy is a marvel to watch. Not only does he evoke sympathy and concern as he is systematically beaten and tortured, he also maintains a degree of detachment towards the events around him that sufficiently reminds us that, while human-looking, his character is not truly human. By turns he is philosopher, victim, man, child, inquisitor, and agent provocateur – and in all, he is utterly convincing and absorbing. He is a mirror, held up to reflect the angst, the perceptions, bias and insecurity of the human race, as personified by Kara Thrace. Through him we also gain what appears to be a further hint of Cylon capabilities.

Conoy first turns up in Roslin’s dream – causing her to demand he is interrogated, not destroyed on being discovered. During his interrogation, he demonstrates personal information concerning Thrace’s upbringing, and shortly before his death, he again appears to Roslin, prompting her to go to the Gemenon Traveller where he can meet with her and plant a bomb potentially every bit as devastating as the nuclear warhead he claimed to have hidden somewhere in the fleet.

All of this tends to raise the question: are Cylons – or at least the Conoy model – psychic? Does the ability to transfer their conscious minds at the point of physical death enable them to do other things mentally as well?

It could be argued that Conoy’s knowledge of Thrace has been gleaned from records – perhaps her military file; maybe she revealed things to Boomer on the Galactica, and she was able to communicate them elsewhere. BUT the way in which the half-drowned Conoy talks about Thrace’s mother and upbringing seems altogether too personal, as if he is, through describing the events, reliving them – and we see this reflected in the intensity of Thrace’s look. There is more here than has been gleaned from official records and half-revealed anecdotes relayed through a third party.

“I ''see'' the universe. I ''see'' the patterns,” Conoy states with the conviction of a man speaking the truth. “I see the foreshadowing that precedes every moment of every day. It’s all there. I see it, and you don’t.” These are the words of a man convinced of the fact that he knows what is to come; how things will end, even before time has run its course, and as such, it is hard not to accept that, somehow, he has the ability to foretell the future.

Or is it merely that through words, through the persuasion of his “half-baked philosophy”, Conoy can influence, twist, turn and manipulate to bring about the events and situations he requires in order to give himself the appearance of precognition? Is there any way we, the audience, can tell if Conoy can “see” the future and thus determine how much of the truth he is telling? Well, apparently there is.

As his time runs out, he reveals his surprise to Thrace: “And I told you I had a surprise for you. Are you ready? “You are going to find Kobol, birthplace of us all. Kobol will lead you to Earth. This is my gift to you, Kara.”

You are going to find Kobol. The essence of truth – we know that this is indeed what will happen; the Colonials will indeed find Kobol; this much is apparently certain from the title of the two-parter that concludes season 1: “Kobol’s Last Gleaming”. So Conoy is telling a degree of truth.

But is he telling the whole truth? On the surface, this comment seems pretty direct. But one thing we have learnt in this series is that nothing is ever quite what it seems. Messages are always delivered in layers. And if we strip away the surface gloss to this comment, we come across a deeper meaning: "You are going to find Kobol….This is my gift to ''you'', Kara". ''(While Conoy's meaning here implies that it will be Thrace who actually finds Kobol, the reality turned out different. It was [[Sharon Valerii]] who found the planet. It was Laura Roslin who confirmed that the Fleet had found Kobol ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]). It was Kara's [[Arrow of Apollo|actions]] that ultimately allowed the Colonials to find a bearing to Earth ([[Home, Part II]]).''

Turning to Conoy’s appearance in Roslin’s dreams: is this again an indication that he is in some way “psychic” - or are Roslin’s visions of him simply a side effect of the Chamalla extract she is taking? His appearances almost seem to manipulate events and bring about the results he desires / has foreseen: his appearance in her initial dream forestalls his simple destruction on capture; his later appearance brings Roslin to the Gemenon Traveller, where he can impart his lie concerning Adama to her.

''(Viewers learn later that the Chamalla did play some role in Roslin's ability to confirm Kobol, the need for the Arrow of Apollo, and her role in the search in the multi-episode story arc, starting with "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]")''

But assuming for a moment the dreams are a side-effect of Roslin's treatment, what does this mean for her? Precognition would seem to fit with the parallels the series has shown with Greek mythology. Could it be that the Kamala is "helping" Roslin to become a Sybil, a seer of future events? ''(In effect, viewers discovered that Roslin was able to comprehend the meanings of the Pythian prophesy through the Chamalla treatments, which foretold the events the Colonials would experience.)''

However, there is a third explanation: that, as Conoy states, everything that happens in this episode – indeed, everything within the series as a whole – is preordained. That there is indeed a deity manipulating things, drawing both the Colonials and Cylons towards an ultimate goal.

Away from the central action, we begin to see the pieces fall into place around Helo on Caprica, with the motivating force behind the Cylon’s activities once more focusing on love.

“Love” is a theme that resonate throughout the episode – and indeed, has resonated through the series since Six’s first on-screen appearance with Baltar. As he is interviewed for a news broadcast, she enters his house, a look of adoration on her face. Then, after the interview, as they start to make out, she asks him in a child-like voice, in need of reassurance, “Did you miss me Gaius?” Still kissing and undressing her, he replies, “Can’t you tell?” and her tone grows more petulant, “Your body misses me. What about your heart…your soul?”

Intent on sating his lust, Baltar remains flippant, “Yeah, those too.” Six’s voice returns to one of need. “Do you love me Gaius?” When he does answer, she stops him from kissing her, making him look her in the eye. “Do you love me?” It is something he cannot answer except to ask her if she is serious. For a moment there is hurt in Six’s expression – which she covers and still proceeds to have sex with him.

Do you love me? The need is real. Could it be that, in carrying her primary mission of sabotage through Baltar, Six did actually come to love him – she actually, if accidentally came to experience that one emotion, that one driving force of life that the Cylons have equated to Godhood, (“God is love”)?
If so, it would further reinforce the fact that whatever is in Baltar’s head is not a product of his own mind.

Certainly, it is the question of love that appears foremost in this episode – both with Conoy, who returns to it time and again in his references to Cylon religion, and more particularly with Valerii on Caprica, where the first question she is asked after her revelation to Doral and Six that she had sex is “Does he love you?” The question is immediately followed by a dismissive “then you’re just guessing,” when she admits he had not actually said as much.

Following the interview with Doral and Six, two things are clear: Valerii has fallen for Helo. That much is evident from the flashbacks of her time with him. She also very much shares the memories of Boomer back on ''Galactica'' – at least up until the point where Boomer left Helo on Caprica, indicating the various incarnations of a specific humanoid Cylon share experiences throughout their existence – although this may be limited by the distance between one another.

Did the Cylons anticipate that any love expressed by a human might be reciprocated by one of their own? If they wish to experience love, then it is hard to see how they could avoid coming to this conclusion. Indeed, it might well explain Doral’s question to Valerii in “Litmus” when Helo sets out to “find” her: “Are you prepared for the next step?” A comment that at the time appeared to have implications well beyond the beating she then received at the hands of Six.

Again, putting these items together – the fact that different incarnations of a Cylon humanoid share experiences and the attempts to have Helo fall in love with Valerii on Caprica – goes a long way to explaining Six’s very apparent sarcasm and vindictiveness towards Valerii, as witnessed in “Litmus” (“He doesn’t love you,” and the unnecessarily-harsh beating she then gives Valerii), and her jealousy towards Valerii shown in this episode (“She acts like one of them, thinks like one of them. She is one of them”). Why? Because if Baltar’s Six did indeed fall in love with Baltar, then Six on Caprica may well have experienced some of it for herself – a vicarious thrill, the very thing the Cylons seek – but it is down to another to achieve the goal of having a human fall in love with her, not Six.

Layers in layers, clues and counter-clues, wheels within wheels. All are revealed and all light the path of the story while simultaneously obscuring the truth behind what is happening. Glimpses and shadows of what might be happening, and what might yet come to pass are shown; but like the insidious nature of Conoy’s half-truths and riddles, they serve to weave a story that even here, more than half-way through season one, inspires discussion, evokes enthusiasm and engages the imagination. Long may it continue!

All told, “Flesh and Bone” is the strongest story yet to come out of Battlestar Galactica – more than that, it is one of the most thought-provoking and evocative 42 minutes of television drama ever broadcast.

== Notes ==
*This episode takes place within 24 hours of those portrayed in "[[Six Degrees of Separation]]"
*''Galactica’s'' doctor has apparently been successful in his quest for Chamalla – Roslin is now using it in her fight against cancer
*There are 47,954 survivors in the Fleet, presumably including ''Galactica’s'' crew, as the figure has fluctuated between 45,000 and 50,000 over the past few weeks in rounded figures. This represents a net loss of 18 since "33", with doubtlessly uncertain census counts throughout the interim
*Laura Roslin may have precognition, and / or Cylons may be psychic
*Boomer believes her family were all killed – together with almost her entire past in a “tragedy” that destroyed the colony of Troy
*Baltar’s Cylon detector works. It takes "a couple of minutes" to process Boomer's sample
*Baltar now knows Boomer is a Cylon
*Leoben Conroy's execution via ejection from an airlock is relatively "unspectacular" compared to similar sequences in many Science Fiction films. Whether the decision not to show his death in a more gruesome fashion may owe as much to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standards_%26_Practices Broadcast Standards & Practices] as it does to scientfic accuracy, it is at least more line with what is known about human physiology and hard vacuum

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==
Conoy to Starbuck, towwards the end of his interrogation, just before Roslin's arrival

Conoy: Each of us plays a role; each time a different role. Maybe the last time I was the interrogator and you were the prisoner. The players change, the story remains the same. And this time – this time – your role is to deliver my soul unto God. Do it for me. It’s your destiny. And mine. (PAUSE) And I told you I had a surprise for you. Are you ready? You are going to find [[Kobol]], birthplace of us all. Kobol will lead you to Earth. This is my gift to you, Kara.

== Official Statements ==



== Statistics ==


== External Links ==
[http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season01/108/ "Flesh and Bone"] at scifi.com

{{Episode List}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: Episode Guide (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

William Adama

2005-12-31T20:31:27Z

Drumstick: /* Son's Death */

{{Character Data|
|photo= [[Image:William Adama promo.jpg|200px]]
|age= 61
|colony= [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]]
|birthname= William Adama
|callsign= Husker
|death=
|parents= [[Evelyn Adama]] (mother), [[Joseph Adama]] (father)
|siblings=
|children= [[Lee Adama]] (alive), [[Zak Adama]] (deceased)
|marital status= Divorced ([[Caroline Adama]])
|role=Commanding Officer, [[Battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]''
|rank=Commander
|cylon=
|actor=[[Edward James Olmos]]
}}

== Biographical Notes ==

=== Background ===

William Adama was born on Caprica to [[Adama, Evelyn|Evelyn]] and [[Joseph Adama]]. His mother was an accountant and his father, an attorney specializing in civil liberties ([[Litmus]]). They divorced while he was in his teens.

At the outbreak of the first [[Cylon War]], Adama was serving in the [[Colonial Fleet]] as a [[Viper]] pilot. He allegedly gained the call sign of "Husker" on account of his baritone "gravelled" voice. He proved to be a gifted pilot, shooting down his first [[Cylon]] on his very first mission. He racked-up his 1,000th deck landing while serving aboard the Battlestar ''[[Atlantia]]'' ([[Act of Contrition]]), when he held the rank of Lieutenant.

Adama served on ''[[Galactica]]'' during the war as a pilot. In the last week of the war, the battlestar was boarded by Cylon forces. He recalled to his friend and fellow war veteran [[Saul Tigh]] that the Cylons divided into two teams. One headed for the ship's auxilary fire control and vented the atmosphere, while the other proceded to secondary damage control and turned ''Galactica'''s guns against the fleet. Over 2,000 people died in the attack. ([[Valley of Darkness]], [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/202/deleted1.html deleted scene]).

Following the Cylon armistice, William Adama married [[Caroline Adama|Caroline]]. They had two sons together: [[Lee Adama|Lee]] and [[Zak Adama|Zak]], before the pressures of Adama's career and the time he spent away from home of active service began to place a strain on their marriage. Nevertheless, this did not stop both Lee and Zak following their father into the service - both signing-up for training as Viper pilots.

[[Image:Youngadamafamily.jpg|thumb|left|A young William Adama and his two sons.]]

A photograph seen in the Mini-Series seems to imply that Adama was still in the fleet when his children were roughly six to eight years old, but within a few years he had been discharged as the result of a reduction-in-force. His marriage to Caroline had apparently fully deteriorated by this point, and he found work on a civilian freighter where he met [[Saul Tigh]], who was to become a longtime friend.

After some time as a civilian, Adama married a second time, to a woman named [[Anne Adama|Anne]]. Her father was able to pull some strings with the defense subcomittee and Adama was reinstated to the [[Colonial Fleet]]. Adama himself arranged for Tigh's reinstatement a few years later.

=== Son's Death ===

During his training, Zak Adama became involved with his flight training officer, Lt. [[Thrace, Kara|Kara "Starbuck" Thrace]], to whom he became engaged shortly before taking his final qualifying flight ([[Act of Contrition]]). As a result of this, Thrace allowed her personal feelings interfere with her professional judgement, passing Zak Adama through flight school when she should have failed him ([[Mini-Series]]). Zak was later killed in an operational flight.

As a result of his son's death, Adama faced the failure of his marriage and estrangement from his eldest son, Lee. However, to counter this, he became acquainted with Kara Thrace, and such was the bond that formed between them, Thrace transferred from flight school to one of the Battlestar ''Galactica's'' squadrons, where she served with Adama for some two years before the Cylon's reappearance ([[Act of Contrition]]).

Despite his divorce, Adama still wears a wedding ring on his finger, indicative of his feeling for his ex-wife ([[Water]]).

Adama is a natural military leader, as demonstrated by his rise to rank of Commander in charge of a Colonial battlestar. He has the rare combination of qualities that make up a good leader: insight, the ability to naturally command respect, a common touch that enables him to relate to the enlisted personnel under his command as well as his officers, intuition, intelligence, a strong belief in his own abilities, and the ability to take the advice of others. These qualities are reflected in the fact the personnel of all ranks aboard ''Galactica'' hold him in high regard, and know that his is approachable ([[Mini-Series]]).

If Adama has any failings, they are his mistrust of politicians and his strong sense of loyalty to those he regards as family and friends. The former is demonstrated in his uneasy acceptance of [[Laura Roslin]] ([[Mini Series]], "[[33]]", "[[Water]]"), which is quickly undermined by Roslin's own doubts following her encounter with [[Leoben Conoy]] ([[Flesh and Bone]]). The latter is most clearly demonstrated by both his support of Colonel [[Tigh, Saul|Saul Tigh]] and his actions when Kara Thrace is posted as Missing in Action.

Despite Tigh's obvious drinking problem ([[Mini-Series]]), Adama retains him as his [[Executive officer]] when another commanding officer might have too easily transferred Tigh to a planetside desk job to avoid the embarrassment. While this demonstrated Adama's unstinting friendship for Tigh, it did the colonel no favors with the officers and crew under his command - many of whom are openly dismissive of him ([[Mini-Series]]) - a fact that may have encouraged his drinking.

With Thrace, Adama's loyalty places the mission to find her above the need to protect the [[Fleet]] and ensure the survival of humanity - thus putting everyone at risk ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]).

=== Surprise [[Cylon Attack]] ===

At the time of the Cylon's sudden attack on the Twelve Colonies, William Adama is serving out his final weeks as commander of the battlestar ''[[Galactica]]''. After some 50 years of service, the historic warship is in the process of being decommissioned, and it was one of Adama's final duties to formally hand her over to the [[Colonial Ministry of Defense]] (by way of Education Secretary [[Laura Roslin]]) who would operate the ship as a living museum commemorating the original Cylon War and an educational center ([[Mini-Series]]).

As a part of the decommissioning ceremonies, someone decides it would be a fitting tribute to have Lee Adama, recently-promoted to the rank of Captain, lead an honor flyby of Vipers - an ironic statement at best, given the strained relationship between the two men. The situation is not made any easier when Lee Adama finds he is to fly his father's battle-honored old Mark II Viper.

When he is first notified of the Cylon attack, Adama's first thoughts were, "Dead. We're all dead" ([[Home, Part II]]). Despite this, as well as the presumed loss of his ex-wife in Caprica City, he manages to shepherd the [[Fleet]] to safety. Since the attack on the Twelve Colonies, Adama strives to lead the remnants of humanity with the same conviction as has marked his entire military career. Military discipline remains (mostly) intact aboard ''Galactica'', and she continues to operate as a top-rate warship, despite her lack of any other military support and despite her reduced complement in terms of both fighters and crew.

[[image:Mini_Adama_Tigh_DRADIS.jpg|thumb|left|300px|Commander [[William Adama|Adama]] and Colonel [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] plot a course to [[Ragnar Anchorage]] in the [[Mini-Series]]. (C. SciFi Channel)]]
As a combat veteran, Adama is more than capable of both strategic and tactical operations and making the decisions both require. When [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]] Fleet Headquarters is destroyed and then Admiral [[Nagala]] is killed, he unhesitatingly takes control of the Colonial's response to the Cylon incursion and starts defining a response to the onslaught. Once President Roslin convinces Adama the futility of fighting against overwhelming odds, and with what may be the last 50,000 humans that remain anywhere, he makes the switch to the more tactical thinking that has kept the Colonial fleet at least one step ahead of their Cylon pursuers. Not only this, but from the outset, he is savvy enough to give every single survivor of the devastating attack on the Colonies a reason for hope for the future: the legend of Earth. This falsehood comes back to haunt him as the weeks continue, as Roslin is aware of this lie to the crew and states this privately to Adama.

Away from the daily rigours of command, he continues to face the problem of [[humano-Cylon]] infiltration within the fleet ("[[Litmus]]", "[[Flesh and Bone]]", "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]") and the possibility of saboteurs aboard ''Galactica'' and the Fleet ([[Water]]) - sabateurs who are still be at large, waiting for an opportunity to strike again. Adama has also had to redefine the boundaries of military and civil leadership, working as best he can with Laura Roslin, now recognized as the President of the people of the Twelve Colonies following the loss of practically all of the original Colonial government.

Events since the Cylon attack causes Adama to reconcile with his son Lee. While they do not always see eye-to-eye, the needs of ''Galactica's'' crew and humanity as a whole have enabled them to better understand one another and move past their differences.

Following the loss of seven of the ''Galactica's'' pilots, Adama is forced to face the truth concerning Zak Adama's death, and Kara Thrace's role within it. In a strange way, these two events are something of a catalyst for one another - Thrace's admission to Adama forces him to realize how precious his remaining son is to him, and how difficult a father he must have been ("[[You Can't Go Home Again]]", "[[The Hand of God]]"); Adama's ability to admit his love and respect for his son enables the elder Adama to overcome his anger towards Thrace after her admission to him ([[Act of Contrition]]).

===Kobol and Earth===
At the start of the exodus from the Twelve Colonies, Adama uses the legend of Earth as a means of binding the remnants of humanity together with a single hope. Unfortunately, this later causes the greatest rift in leadership within the Colonial fleet. Following the accidental discovery of [[Kobol]], which [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]] sees pre-ordained in scripture, Adama finds himself confronted by what amounts to a court-martial situation. With members of his crew -- and the Vice President, [[Gaius Baltar]] -- trapped on the surface of Kobol, Adama orders Kara Thrace to use a captured [[Cylon Raider]] to destroy a Cylon [[basestar]] in orbit above Kobol. However, President Roslin persuades Thrace to use the Raider to go to [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] to retrieve the [[Arrow of Apollo]] at [[Delphi]] ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]).

This action results in Adama terminating Roslin's presidency in what amounts to a coup, only to find [[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]] is forced to arrest [[Lee Adama]] when they travel to ''[[Colonial One]]'' to remove President Roslin from office. With Thrace gone, he dispatches [[Sharon Valerii#Boomer|Lieutenant Valerii]] to destroy the basestar over Kobol. While the mission is successful, Valerii's Cylon programming reveals itself and shoots Adama at point blank range as he thanks her for her work on her return to ''Galactica'' ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). Adama's injuries are left untreated when a second basestar suddenly appears, forcing ''Galactica'' and the Fleet to perform an emergency [[FTL|Jump]].

Unfortunately, the chaos of the situation leaves ''Galactica'' without the same Jump coordinates as the Fleet, and the battlestar is separated in another area of space ([[Scattered]]). Worst of all, Dr. [[Cottle]], the Fleet's only doctor, is on one of the other ships in the Fleet. Lieutenant [[Felix Gaeta]] determines how to return to the Fleet in a way that Adama would disapprove: by temporarily networking the ship's [[computers]] to greatly accelerate the recalculations needed to get the Fleet's coordinates while using fighters to hold off the Cylons, as they must return to their previous location to perform the calculations. The procedure works. However, shortly after, ''Galactica'' is raided by a [[Cylon Centurion]] boarding party, and some ship functions are compromised by a fragment of a Cylon virus that did get past Gaeta's computer defenses ([[Valley of Darkness]]). The process of clearing the ship of both Centurions and Cylon virus requires more time than the injured Adama would have, were it not for the [[Layne Ishay|medics]] on hand who stabilize the commander's condition long enough for Cottle to return. After a lengthy and risky operation, Cottle repairs the damage to Adama's body.

Adama rests unconscious while Tigh declares martial law to counteract Roslin's supporters in the [[Quorum of Twelve]]. Roslin escapes the ship with Lee Adama's help, and hide throughout the fleet as Adama regains consciousness and returns to command. Roslin gains sufficient support and returns to Kobol, convincing over a third of the Fleet to Jump to Kobol in search of the path to Earth. Adama is incensed as, being a man with generally secular beliefs, he never truly believed in the existence of Earth of the Pythian scriptures and (incorrectly) feels that most others believe the same.
[[image:Home_pt1-Adama.jpg|thumb|300px|Commander [[William Adama|Adama]] paints a model boat while talking to [[Dualla|Dee]] in [[Home, Part I]]. (Credit: SciFi Channel)]]
Adama's calm exterior barely holds back the helplessness and rage he feels over the betrayal of his son, Sharon Valerii, Roslin, and over 4,000 others that left with Roslin for Kobol. While at first Adama takes a similar stance to Tigh in assuming a hard military posture, a conversation with [[Dualla]] helps him realize again (as Dualla and [[Billy Keikeya]] showed him before the [[Battle of Ragnar Anchorage]]) that, despite the problems, the Fleet is his family, and the family must stay together. He orders the remainder of the Fleet to prepare to return to Kobol ([[Home, Part I]]).

Adama's attitude about Roslin and her quest changes from anger to genuine interest as he and his command staff track the likeliest location where Roslin's group searches for the [[Tomb of Athena]]. Rather than being skeptical about Roslin's visions, for instance, Adama begins to take them as face value, considering that data just as useful as the maps in front of him. Realizing that only he could reach out to Roslin to reunite the Fleet ("It was always between us anyway"), Adama leaves ''Galactica'' to Tigh's command while he, Tyrol, Racetrack, and Billy Keikeya head to Kobol to find Roslin's group.

Adama greets his son, Lee, with raised guns, accidentally surprising Roslin's camp. Adama hugs his son and warmly greets Roslin and Thrace. However, on seeing the Caprica-based version of Sharon Valerii, Adama examines her eerily, grabs her by the throat and hurls her down to the ground while the camp tries to explain the reason why she was in camp. "I want you to die" was all that Adama could express before his pent-up anger became more physical, the exertions from his recovery catching up to him. He rolls off Valerii with aid, clutching his chest. Adama is given an explanation but remains understandably wary of this Humano-Cylon.

Adama and Roslin have a talk unlike any other they've shared in the past, both calling each other by their first names, casually. Adama tells Roslin that he forgives her for her actions in the past weeks, and leaves the apology stand even when Roslin casually notes that she wasn't asking for his permission. When Roslin speaks of the [[Resistance (movement)|resistance]] on Caprica and whether ''Galactica'' and her fleet should have returned to fight instead of leaving from Ragnar Anchorage, Adama rejects the notion, saying he did not come to Kobol to "navel gaze" at what they could have done. He thanks Laura for saving him, his son, and the Fleet, for if he did not follow Roslin's advice to leave the system before the fight at Ragnar, he believes they would have all died.

Moments after discovering the entrance to the Tomb of Athena, Caprica-Valerii raises a gun at Adama's chest while [[Meier]], one of [[Tom Zarek]]'s men, raises his gun to Lee Adama, who is now aiming at Valerii. Meier was attempting an assassination of both Adamas to allow Zarek more political power after Roslin's demise, trying to use Valerii as a pawn to remove attention from Zarek. Immediately, Valerii turns her gun to Meier and fires. Lee Adama picks off a second shooter, while Valerii explains to Adama that she is fully aware of who she is and that, unlike her ''Galactica'' counterpart known as Boomer, she does not have hidden protocols or programming. She surrenders her weapon to Adama. Adama's feelings on Valerii remain guarded as she is placed in the special cage created for her counterpart on their return to ''Galactica.''

Adama enters the Tomb with Roslin, Lee, Kara, and Billy, the rest left guarded by Tyrol. The group successfully activates the map with the [[Arrow of Apollo]] and gain useful information on the true whereabouts of Earth. Back on ''Galactica'', Adama firmly buries the hatchet between he and Roslin publically by introducing Roslin as the President for a speech to members of the fleet, and leads a formal, unified ovation by applause for Roslin ([[Home, Part II]]).

===Common Ground===

To help undo the damage to the military's reputation in the Fleet after the "''[[Gideon]]'' incident", President Roslin and Adama gives a [[Fleet News Service]] reporter, [[D'anna Biers]], unlimited access of the ship to interview the crew and watch their work and off-shift behavior. Bier's resulting documentary is very moving, and Adama gives his approval to release it for airing to the Fleet, who believes it shows the best of his crew, "warts and all". Adama is not aware that Biers is a Cylon infiltrator that has also passed out intelligence to her counterparts on Caprica of the existance and pregnancy of Helo's copy of Sharon Valerii ([[Final Cut]]).

''Galactica'' is beset by mysterious malfunctions throughout the ship. Worse, crew morale is very low, with no relief, little true recreation, and a sense of no future plagues many throughout the ship. Even the stoic and reliable Lieutenant [[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]] vents his frustration to the surprise of everyone in [[CIC]]. Deck Chief [[Galen Tyrol]], fighting his own sense of hopelessness, begins a project to build a replacement fighter from spare parts. Over time, others in the ship join in on the "pet project". Despite the need to stop the increasing malfunctions, Adama is reluctant to stop work on Tyrol's project unless necessary as it gave the crew a creative outlet. Some time later, after the new fighter completes its maiden flight, Adama and Roslin christen the new stealth fighter, the [[Blackbird]]. Adama tells Roslin that the crew's nicknaming the fighter "Laura" was a honor they wanted to do for the President, given her service to them as well as their feelings about her illness.

Adama solicits the help of the incarcerated Caprica copy of Sharon Valerii, ordering [[Helo]] to show her a portion of the Cylon virus code found in the ship's computers. She reacts in shock and tells Adama that this code was part of a [[logic bomb]] that will take over the battlestar, killing its crew and directing its guns at the remaining Fleet to destroy it. She also strongly believes, as did Adama, that this bomb was an indication of an imminent Cylon attack. Lieutenant Gaeta and [[Gaius Baltar]] determine that they can rid themselves of the bomb by wiping the hard drives of all computers and restoring them from backups. However, during this process, the battlestar would be practically defenseless except for its fighters. Adama needs a way to stop the incoming Cylon forces, but he is unsure if he can trust the second copy of Valerii. Adama asks President Roslin for advice, and she responds by asking him to find common ground between Valerii and himself, despite his prejudices about her. In a desperate plan, Adama brings Valerii to CIC, where she uses her humanoid Cylon brain to send a virus back to the massive Cylon fleet that appears, deactivating every single enemy fighter. ''Galactica's'' Vipers easily destroy all enemy Raiders without a single casualty to themselves as Gaeta and Baltar return the battlestar's computers to normal function ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).

===The Discovery of Battlestar ''Pegasus''===

The sudden discovery of the advanced [[Mercury-class]] Battlestar ''[[Pegasus]]'', commanded by Admiral [[Helena Cain]], is a very welcome event for Adama and his war-weary crew, and surely brings additional hope to the civilian fleet. But Cain's command staff--as well as her crew--seem oddly power-hungry, angrily disciplined, and, perhaps, the perfect reason why the Cylons might decide the human race should be annihilated. Adama, a soldier accustomed to taking orders, puts on a stoic face as Cain assumes command of the fleet. Not even Adama's relaxed smile convinces Laura Roslin of Adama's attitude when she asks how he was handling his change in command. Her guess was correct: something about the Admiral bothers Adama, but he is reluctant to discuss it and so follows his own truism for the time being: stick to what you know, until you find something better.

Adama's troubles with Cain begin with her choice to furnish supplies only to ''Galactica'' and not the civilian fleet, a point that Roslin hopes Adama would be able to correct. After Cain reads Adama's ship logs of the last 3 months, Cain reassigns Lieutenant Thrace and his son, Lee, to her ship. She explains that Adama was too close to his son, that Starbuck was an insubordinate officer that required structure, and that Adama had let military discipline become lax. Adama's stony face barely hides his anger, which he partially releases on Apollo and Starbuck as he orders them without commentary to transfer to ''Pegasus.'' Cain had made some valid observations about lax discipline on ''Galactica'', so Adama grudgingly accepts her re-shuffling of personnel.

Matters with Cain's unusually totalitarian command style come to a head when Cain orders her "Cylon interrogator", Lieutenant [[Thorne]], to interrogate the normally cooperative Caprica copy of [[Sharon Valerii]]. Thorne's method of "interrogation" was sexual assault. Lt. Agathon and Tyrol discover the truth of Thorne from members of ''Pegasus''' crew. They rush to Valerii's cell and pull Thorne away from Valerii. In the course of the altercation, Tyrol throws Thorne headward against an exposed bolt, killing him. Adama is given assurances by Cain that the two will be tried fairly, but she refuses to assemble a tribunal to conduct the trial.

A few hours later, Adama is told that Agathon and Tyrol were tried and convicted--and solely by Cain herself. Cain claims that wartime status granted her extra powers, but Adama disagrees, realizing that his fleet wasn't on an offensive posture and requires cooperation and not military rule, as ''Galactica'' could have done long ago at Ragnar Anchorage by fighting to win and abandoning the civilian fleet. Adama's stony acceptance of taking orders from the renegade admiral immediately ceases. He orders the alert Vipers and a Raptor--filled with [[marines]]--to head to ''Pegasus'' to retrieve his men, and Cain deploys her Vipers. Adama is headed into yet another fight for the survival of his fleet--his family--against a vastly superior force, and it doesn't seem to matter to him one wit if it is the Cylon fleet, or Cain's hostile, warmongering forces.

{{spoiltext|Following the death of Cain, Adama is promoted to the rank of Admiral ([[Resurrection Ship]]).}}

==Additional Notes==
*[[Wikipedia:Adama|Adama]] (also known as Nazareth) is the name of a large city in Ethiopia

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Adama, William]]
[[Category:Characters|Adama, William]]
[[Category:RDM|Adama, William]]

Talk:Science in the Re-imagined Series/Archive 1

2005-12-31T02:22:34Z

Drumstick: /* Time for a Technobabble Exam */

Talk:Science in the Re-imagined Series/Archive 1

2005-12-31T02:19:37Z

Drumstick: /* Sublight vs. FTL */