Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-11T02:59:35Z

Centuri: /* Why? */ not just Adama

Moved to a page listing her surname first, hope no one minds.

I wonder why the ''Pegasus'' didn't follow Adama's order to rendezvous at Ragnar? Left the system before he sent it, or just Cain's megalomania? [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:50, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
: We may have that answer by this episode. It's a strong possibility that Cain may never have received the message since [[wireless]] has a range limit, and she may have jumped way out of range after the message was sent. Or, going to Ragnar was too hazardous for Pegasus, and Cain had to figure out where the fleet might have headed from Ragnar, in addition to perhaps avoiding her own pursuing Cylons. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:59, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

: Actually, I was thinking of doing entries by their first name. The reason that this was done in the first place was because we, at the time, didn't know how to alphabetize listings by their last name in categories... Unless you have a reason why we should continue with going by surname first, I would like to go to a format with first - middle - last name as the namespace. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:34, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Fine with me, although seems like it's going to take a helluva long time to re-do all the entries. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 19:54, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

===Actress===
http://www.lvrocks.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.cgi?forum=38&thread=2983#1

:''"And the big news was that Jane Seymour (Dr Quinn, East of Eden) from the original series, turned down the role of Admiral Cain. And Lynda Carter (Wonder Woman), Victoria Principal (DALLAS), Susan Lucci (All My Children) and Kate Mulgrew (Star Trek: Voyager) are all being consider for the hopeful female role.''

:''If the role cannot be filled by a woman they are looking at David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) or Don Johnson (Miami Vice) who was in that show with Olmos."''

Personally, I think Kate Mulgrew would be the best choice.

[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:30, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: Out of those choices, I do agree. Mulgrew is a good actress -- pity she was under-used in Voyager, IMHO. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== My new info ==

http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/suncal/cl-ca-lettersannex17jul17,0,7954431.story?coll=cl-suncal

Scroll down to the letter by "Tess Harper." [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 00:40, 18 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== "Spoiler Boxes" ==
The spoiler boxes have a serious flaw--you can't see the "this is a spoiler" line at the top when you're using the Monobook skin. It's too dark to read. I highlighted and ended up seeing the spoiler, and I didn't want to. Of course now I know what the box is and I won't highlight it anymore, but I would appreciate it if the box could be edited to be compatible with all the skins. Thanks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 00:16, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:I'm copying this to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy]], FYI. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:21, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

==Helena?==

SciFi.com is calling her Helena Cain. What do they say in the episode and captions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:''copied from [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters]]''
Okay. So, according to [http://scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/210/ this], Cain's name is Helena, not Nelena. The former seems like a much more, well, reasonable first name, but it could be a typo or whatever. Anyone know where we got Nelena from? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:43, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::IMDB says "Nelena". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:46, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::IMDB doesn't mena jack. Nelena was what all the spoilers called her, although Helena makes much more sense - the name means "Greek woman," which is obviously a connection with the background mythos of the series. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:06, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I know it doesn't mean jack, but SciFi.com isn't always right either. Maybe someone who has the episode on tape could re-watch the scene where she's introduced and chime in? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I taped the episode but they never say her name or see it printed: it's not in the end credits, and at the beginning it just says "Special Guest Star; Michelle Forbes". I checked and it is not in "Pegasus". We should find confirmation in "Resurrection Ship". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:54, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::Um, when has SciFi.com never been right? In fact, they had a lot of stuff before it was even shwon in the show - Tyrol's first name, the Celestra, and the ship specifications. All of those were backed up either by the show or ZOIC. And seeing as every name in the show has been a real name, and Nelena isn't, and Helena works with the Greek centrism of the show, there's no reason to think that it's wrong. And in any event, claiming that IMDb takes precedence over the official site is laughable. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:15, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::::Well, for one thing their older pages spell "Gemenon" as "Geminon", which was contradicted by "Colonial Day" - note that Helena/Nelena is also a one-letter spelling difference. But I don't really feel the need to carry on an argument about whether IMDB or SciFi are more reliable, when we can simply watch the episode over again at our next opportunity and see what the characters actually say. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:37, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
: Please remember to be, well, cautious about content from Sci-Fi and IMDb. They've had errors crop up on both pages before; for instance, Paul Tigh instead of Saul Tigh, and I believe they even indicated that the character [[Grimes]] (in "[[Colonial Day]]") was also an assassin at one point. As for IMDb, they're really hit or miss on things such as this. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:58, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::I can see where a typo could have occurred with the similarity between a capital "N" or "H." Still, it makes it harder when the character name is not used in speech in an episode to verify. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::Isn't she in the credits? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Why?==

I just got done watching Resurrection Ship, Part I -- that sound you heard (like a strem-locomotive being eaten alive) was me. Oh the pain the pain the pain! How could they (the writers) do this? Cain -- in the orginal -- was headstrong and made an "act of tactical misjudgement;" but he was mainly a leader who always inspired others. Even the Galactica personel were awed by him -- so much so that Apollo and Starbuck tried the absurd stunt of flying two "Vipers against Baseships." But this woman makes my skin crawl. Her insubordination to the President is reminicent of MacArthur's own insubordination with President Truman. But for her to openly order her people to murder Adama ''and his command staff'' and take the Galactica -- that is totally out in left field. There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude. The original Cain inspired those under him, but this one commands through fear. No officer like that could ever rise to the rank of Admiral. The orders she has given are illegal and she knows it. The orders she has given are illegal and the people under her know it. And this isn't the first illegal order she's given. She should have been relived when she murdered her XO. You don't obey illegal orders. What the hell is going on here? I have considered this NEW incarnation of the series to be charachter-rape of the worst kind -- and now its gotten wose than I thought possiple. They're going too darn far! Why are they doing this? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:06, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Welcome to the Wiki, Centuri. "I feel your pain." But, this is a different show so we cannot expect the same characterizations or else we'd lose the conflicts and contrasts we've enjoyed so far. This show is not a clone of the original, so a different mindset is required. This is a story of what humanity with its back to the wall. And despite that, the humans still find ways to screw themselves over. I think you did hit upon some similarities between the RDM Cain and her TOS counterpart. This Cain IS well respected by her crew--they have gone through life and death together in a way that ''Galactica's'' crew hadn't quite done in the same scale. Yet Cain is an extremist--her military training has made her forget the reason she and her crew exist--the preservation and protection of the Colonies and her people. She uses the letter of the law and ignores the spirit of the law. For example, if by taking some of her civilian fleet's supplies she would ensure the survival of all of the colonists in those ships as she escorted them out of harm's way, that would be understandable. But she left them to die just to fight--and for what? Roslin said it best; Cain is a threat to the Fleet because she believes that (1) fighting is all that there is to do, and by her rules, and (2) she ignores or forgets that the military serves the people and not the other way around. She will turn on the civilians for the "greater good" of defeating an undefeatable enemy. As far as Cain being relieved of duty, remember that she's built up a lot of morale on her ship through her fights--the crew respect her, if not likes her. They know she kicks ass. And they are also infected with the same fighting attitude that blinds them to what they should really be doing. And her crew also fears her for the same reason--no one but Adama and his crew may have the guts to challenge her. Roslin is completely right when she tells Adama she must be killed. If she doesn't die, EVERYONE may die. The Colonial Fleet wasn't perfect; Cain's promotion likely came through the same poor decisions that doomed them all. Adama has a chance to undo it and gain resources to ensure their survival. Remember, Adama would be Cain if Roslin didn't talk him out of fighting.

:The fact that you are incensed means that the writing is working. :) Take the show as a new story and temporarily place the good story that was "The Living Legend" aside for an hour. This Cain is no hero, but this Adama will step up to the plate as I thought his counterpart should have been in TOS. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:11, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::What you are asking is difficult -- at best. Battlestar Galactica, was a space-war saga. TOS writing was too flawed for the show to survive (THE YOUNG LORDS). However, it still exists as a concept. And that concept was NOT ''The Young & the Resless meets Days of Our Lives and the Guiding Light'' in space! Blah! Sorry, I have a high level of quality expectation with Sci-fi. Take a look at Sci-Fi Channels re-imaging of DUNE -- it was fantastic. They are capable of high quality work, as FARSCAPE demonstrated, but this..... -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 20:04, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Play nice Centuri. If you are expressing your honest concern, fine, but if this turns out to be another sock-puppet pseudonym of Languatron/Spider, abusive/unproductive posting can be banned. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::::"Who are you?" -- "What do you want?" And what are you talking about? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 18:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::Ricimer, I'm going to have to start keeping a private list of your hostile remarks. Expect this to come up at your next RFA. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::::A) No this is not a "hostile remark"; it is a warning that simple trolling is grounds for banning; as this has ''not'' happened, it proved to be unnecessary. Under '''no''' circumstances does saying "play nice, we do ban people who misbehave", without any actual berating, mean "hostility". You are being unfair in this Farago, as when I had that arguement with SgtPayne and you chastized me...only for me to find that the one who offended SgtPayne was ''you'' and not myself. I haven't actually done anything wrong, so please stop tring to get blood from a stone. '''B)''' In hindsight, it appears that Centuri probably ''wasn't'' aware of this, but on many messageboards I go to, this guy named Languatron (or Spider as he now calls himself) floods the messageboards with trollings about how much "Helena Cain" ruined the TOS character. I tried ot introduce BSG to the E Online's new forums, and he kind of destroyed them as they have no moderators there. I am sorry if I have mislabeled this person, but I must say, at first glance it looked like the ''exact same'' rhetoric as the one used by a troll who tried to bring down TNS sites. "I appologize for the inconvenience..."--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:43, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::::It doesn't matter whether the deletion was yours or mine, or whether Centuri is a sockpuppet for someone you know or not. You need to moderate your tone, react less hastily, and extend the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:57, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::::"rhetoric"? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 00:45, 10 January 2006 (EST)

::::1 - who is Ricimer?
::::2 - what is he talking about?
::::-- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::::1 - A regular and prolific contributor here.
:::::2 - I have no idea. Maybe a fight he had on wikipedia. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:27, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:"There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude." Oh, how I wish that were true... As for her orders' illegality, I don't think it's really clear that anything she's done is explicitly illegal -- though that certainly doesn't make her actions acceptable. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:24, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::She ordered her crew to murder civilians. They were lined up against a wall and executed. There is no regulation that can give her the authority to do that. Killing defenceless civilians is prohibited by the articles of war. "All murders committed by any person in the fleet, shall be punished with death by the sentence of a court martial." It was an illegal order -- period! -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Besides the fact that I'm not aware of any specific Colonial laws regarding this, there were potentially Cylons among those civilians, so she could have easily justified it as "possible enemy combatants" (*cough*). It isn't murder unless the killing is explicity against the law, and I don't think that's been established. This is a rather trivial matter though; she's a dead woman walking anyway (as much as I love having her on the show). --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:54, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::I'm pretty sure having Adama killed is illegal. The fact that Adama is issuing the exact same order (at almost the exact same time) doesn't make it any more legal. Granted, she's dead either way. I'm just curious who's on the other end of that pistol. I'm guessing it's NOT Kara Thrace, and leaning more towards the Gina/Pegasus/Six. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:01, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::::Not just Adama -- his entire command. That means all senior officers and crew. She ordered him to kill EVERYONE in CIC and the personel in key areas throughout the ship. You know, this has gotten a little afield of my original inquiry. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 21:59, 10 January 2006 (EST)

===if you find the show unenjoyable===

As for you, Centuri, if you find the show unenjoyable, you certainly aren't required to watch it or contribute to the RDM articles here. There are [[TOS|other series]] in need of documentation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:My friend (I hope I may address you as such), you are right. Nobody says that I must watch the RDM (what does "RDM" mean?) series. As a general rule, I do not -- I was so major turned off by what we were given after so many years of waiting. But then, there was the news of the coming of the Pegasus -- I felt that this would be worth checking out. Surly, the introduction of the Pegasus would be a major turning point just as it was in the original series. I had my hopes up that they were going to turn things in a more energetic direction -- and I was sure wrong, it only got worse. Only curiosity about the conclusion has me going now. I will watch the conclusion, only because I want to find out who kills who. As I see it, there are 5 possibilities:

# Kara Thrace carries out the order,
# Kara Thrace fails in the attempt and some other sap succeeds (like Londo's failed attempt on the Emperor's life followed by Vir finishing the job {Babylon 5 season 4])
# Adama never gets the chance to give the order because Cain gives the "Execute Case Orange" order first and Fisk does as he's been ordered. This will mean that Adama will die (and Edward James Olmos decided to leave the show -- small loss) leaving Cain in charge. If this happens, she will probably follow through by destroying ''Colonial One.''
# The opportunity never comes for either order to be carried out. Like the original Pegasus, the upcoming battle results in the ship being MAJOR damaged and dropping from the series (presumed destroyed with all hands).
# Fisk, knows that what he has been ordered to do is wrong, like so many other of Cain's orders. Fisk's conscience finally can't stand it, and he covertly informs Adama of the order, which would be followed by....

:We'll just have to wait and see. I'm just a long time fan of the original. A lot can and can not be said about it. When I saw the episode where Starbuck crashed on a planet where children were riding around on unicorns fighting the Cylons, I knew the show was dead. But it did have some good episodes. Comparison between the 2 is inevitable. Like the comparisons between the various versions of the movie ''The Phantom of the Opera,'' or any other redone work. Sorry, but I did have my hopes up. Did you ever read the Malibu Comics BG series ''Journey's End''? It showed one version of what they could have done. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 22:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::"what does 'RDM' mean?" [[Ronald D. Moore]]. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Yes. We use "RDM" as the namespace on some articles where there are Original Series counterparts, such as [[Galactica (RDM)]] as opposed to [[Galactica (TOS)]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:43, 10 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-10T23:31:18Z

Centuri: /* if you find the show unenjoyable */ spell check

Moved to a page listing her surname first, hope no one minds.

I wonder why the ''Pegasus'' didn't follow Adama's order to rendezvous at Ragnar? Left the system before he sent it, or just Cain's megalomania? [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:50, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
: We may have that answer by this episode. It's a strong possibility that Cain may never have received the message since [[wireless]] has a range limit, and she may have jumped way out of range after the message was sent. Or, going to Ragnar was too hazardous for Pegasus, and Cain had to figure out where the fleet might have headed from Ragnar, in addition to perhaps avoiding her own pursuing Cylons. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:59, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

: Actually, I was thinking of doing entries by their first name. The reason that this was done in the first place was because we, at the time, didn't know how to alphabetize listings by their last name in categories... Unless you have a reason why we should continue with going by surname first, I would like to go to a format with first - middle - last name as the namespace. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:34, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Fine with me, although seems like it's going to take a helluva long time to re-do all the entries. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 19:54, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

===Actress===
http://www.lvrocks.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.cgi?forum=38&thread=2983#1

:''"And the big news was that Jane Seymour (Dr Quinn, East of Eden) from the original series, turned down the role of Admiral Cain. And Lynda Carter (Wonder Woman), Victoria Principal (DALLAS), Susan Lucci (All My Children) and Kate Mulgrew (Star Trek: Voyager) are all being consider for the hopeful female role.''

:''If the role cannot be filled by a woman they are looking at David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) or Don Johnson (Miami Vice) who was in that show with Olmos."''

Personally, I think Kate Mulgrew would be the best choice.

[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:30, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: Out of those choices, I do agree. Mulgrew is a good actress -- pity she was under-used in Voyager, IMHO. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== My new info ==

http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/suncal/cl-ca-lettersannex17jul17,0,7954431.story?coll=cl-suncal

Scroll down to the letter by "Tess Harper." [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 00:40, 18 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== "Spoiler Boxes" ==
The spoiler boxes have a serious flaw--you can't see the "this is a spoiler" line at the top when you're using the Monobook skin. It's too dark to read. I highlighted and ended up seeing the spoiler, and I didn't want to. Of course now I know what the box is and I won't highlight it anymore, but I would appreciate it if the box could be edited to be compatible with all the skins. Thanks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 00:16, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:I'm copying this to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy]], FYI. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:21, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

==Helena?==

SciFi.com is calling her Helena Cain. What do they say in the episode and captions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:''copied from [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters]]''
Okay. So, according to [http://scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/210/ this], Cain's name is Helena, not Nelena. The former seems like a much more, well, reasonable first name, but it could be a typo or whatever. Anyone know where we got Nelena from? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:43, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::IMDB says "Nelena". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:46, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::IMDB doesn't mena jack. Nelena was what all the spoilers called her, although Helena makes much more sense - the name means "Greek woman," which is obviously a connection with the background mythos of the series. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:06, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I know it doesn't mean jack, but SciFi.com isn't always right either. Maybe someone who has the episode on tape could re-watch the scene where she's introduced and chime in? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I taped the episode but they never say her name or see it printed: it's not in the end credits, and at the beginning it just says "Special Guest Star; Michelle Forbes". I checked and it is not in "Pegasus". We should find confirmation in "Resurrection Ship". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:54, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::Um, when has SciFi.com never been right? In fact, they had a lot of stuff before it was even shwon in the show - Tyrol's first name, the Celestra, and the ship specifications. All of those were backed up either by the show or ZOIC. And seeing as every name in the show has been a real name, and Nelena isn't, and Helena works with the Greek centrism of the show, there's no reason to think that it's wrong. And in any event, claiming that IMDb takes precedence over the official site is laughable. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:15, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::::Well, for one thing their older pages spell "Gemenon" as "Geminon", which was contradicted by "Colonial Day" - note that Helena/Nelena is also a one-letter spelling difference. But I don't really feel the need to carry on an argument about whether IMDB or SciFi are more reliable, when we can simply watch the episode over again at our next opportunity and see what the characters actually say. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:37, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
: Please remember to be, well, cautious about content from Sci-Fi and IMDb. They've had errors crop up on both pages before; for instance, Paul Tigh instead of Saul Tigh, and I believe they even indicated that the character [[Grimes]] (in "[[Colonial Day]]") was also an assassin at one point. As for IMDb, they're really hit or miss on things such as this. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:58, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::I can see where a typo could have occurred with the similarity between a capital "N" or "H." Still, it makes it harder when the character name is not used in speech in an episode to verify. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::Isn't she in the credits? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Why?==

I just got done watching Resurrection Ship, Part I -- that sound you heard (like a strem-locomotive being eaten alive) was me. Oh the pain the pain the pain! How could they (the writers) do this? Cain -- in the orginal -- was headstrong and made an "act of tactical misjudgement;" but he was mainly a leader who always inspired others. Even the Galactica personel were awed by him -- so much so that Apollo and Starbuck tried the absurd stunt of flying two "Vipers against Baseships." But this woman makes my skin crawl. Her insubordination to the President is reminicent of MacArthur's own insubordination with President Truman. But for her to openly order her people to murder Adama ''and his command staff'' and take the Galactica -- that is totally out in left field. There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude. The original Cain inspired those under him, but this one commands through fear. No officer like that could ever rise to the rank of Admiral. The orders she has given are illegal and she knows it. The orders she has given are illegal and the people under her know it. And this isn't the first illegal order she's given. She should have been relived when she murdered her XO. You don't obey illegal orders. What the hell is going on here? I have considered this NEW incarnation of the series to be charachter-rape of the worst kind -- and now its gotten wose than I thought possiple. They're going too darn far! Why are they doing this? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:06, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Welcome to the Wiki, Centuri. "I feel your pain." But, this is a different show so we cannot expect the same characterizations or else we'd lose the conflicts and contrasts we've enjoyed so far. This show is not a clone of the original, so a different mindset is required. This is a story of what humanity with its back to the wall. And despite that, the humans still find ways to screw themselves over. I think you did hit upon some similarities between the RDM Cain and her TOS counterpart. This Cain IS well respected by her crew--they have gone through life and death together in a way that ''Galactica's'' crew hadn't quite done in the same scale. Yet Cain is an extremist--her military training has made her forget the reason she and her crew exist--the preservation and protection of the Colonies and her people. She uses the letter of the law and ignores the spirit of the law. For example, if by taking some of her civilian fleet's supplies she would ensure the survival of all of the colonists in those ships as she escorted them out of harm's way, that would be understandable. But she left them to die just to fight--and for what? Roslin said it best; Cain is a threat to the Fleet because she believes that (1) fighting is all that there is to do, and by her rules, and (2) she ignores or forgets that the military serves the people and not the other way around. She will turn on the civilians for the "greater good" of defeating an undefeatable enemy. As far as Cain being relieved of duty, remember that she's built up a lot of morale on her ship through her fights--the crew respect her, if not likes her. They know she kicks ass. And they are also infected with the same fighting attitude that blinds them to what they should really be doing. And her crew also fears her for the same reason--no one but Adama and his crew may have the guts to challenge her. Roslin is completely right when she tells Adama she must be killed. If she doesn't die, EVERYONE may die. The Colonial Fleet wasn't perfect; Cain's promotion likely came through the same poor decisions that doomed them all. Adama has a chance to undo it and gain resources to ensure their survival. Remember, Adama would be Cain if Roslin didn't talk him out of fighting.

:The fact that you are incensed means that the writing is working. :) Take the show as a new story and temporarily place the good story that was "The Living Legend" aside for an hour. This Cain is no hero, but this Adama will step up to the plate as I thought his counterpart should have been in TOS. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:11, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::What you are asking is difficult -- at best. Battlestar Galactica, was a space-war saga. TOS writing was too flawed for the show to survive (THE YOUNG LORDS). However, it still exists as a concept. And that concept was NOT ''The Young & the Resless meets Days of Our Lives and the Guiding Light'' in space! Blah! Sorry, I have a high level of quality expectation with Sci-fi. Take a look at Sci-Fi Channels re-imaging of DUNE -- it was fantastic. They are capable of high quality work, as FARSCAPE demonstrated, but this..... -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 20:04, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Play nice Centuri. If you are expressing your honest concern, fine, but if this turns out to be another sock-puppet pseudonym of Languatron/Spider, abusive/unproductive posting can be banned. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::::"Who are you?" -- "What do you want?" And what are you talking about? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 18:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::Ricimer, I'm going to have to start keeping a private list of your hostile remarks. Expect this to come up at your next RFA. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::::A) No this is not a "hostile remark"; it is a warning that simple trolling is grounds for banning; as this has ''not'' happened, it proved to be unnecessary. Under '''no''' circumstances does saying "play nice, we do ban people who misbehave", without any actual berating, mean "hostility". You are being unfair in this Farago, as when I had that arguement with SgtPayne and you chastized me...only for me to find that the one who offended SgtPayne was ''you'' and not myself. I haven't actually done anything wrong, so please stop tring to get blood from a stone. '''B)''' In hindsight, it appears that Centuri probably ''wasn't'' aware of this, but on many messageboards I go to, this guy named Languatron (or Spider as he now calls himself) floods the messageboards with trollings about how much "Helena Cain" ruined the TOS character. I tried ot introduce BSG to the E Online's new forums, and he kind of destroyed them as they have no moderators there. I am sorry if I have mislabeled this person, but I must say, at first glance it looked like the ''exact same'' rhetoric as the one used by a troll who tried to bring down TNS sites. "I appologize for the inconvenience..."--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:43, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::::It doesn't matter whether the deletion was yours or mine, or whether Centuri is a sockpuppet for someone you know or not. You need to moderate your tone, react less hastily, and extend the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:57, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::::"rhetoric"? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 00:45, 10 January 2006 (EST)

::::1 - who is Ricimer?
::::2 - what is he talking about?
::::-- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::::1 - A regular and prolific contributor here.
:::::2 - I have no idea. Maybe a fight he had on wikipedia. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:27, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:"There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude." Oh, how I wish that were true... As for her orders' illegality, I don't think it's really clear that anything she's done is explicitly illegal -- though that certainly doesn't make her actions acceptable. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:24, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::She ordered her crew to murder civilians. They were lined up against a wall and executed. There is no regulation that can give her the authority to do that. Killing defenceless civilians is prohibited by the articles of war. "All murders committed by any person in the fleet, shall be punished with death by the sentence of a court martial." It was an illegal order -- period! -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Besides the fact that I'm not aware of any specific Colonial laws regarding this, there were potentially Cylons among those civilians, so she could have easily justified it as "possible enemy combatants" (*cough*). It isn't murder unless the killing is explicity against the law, and I don't think that's been established. This is a rather trivial matter though; she's a dead woman walking anyway (as much as I love having her on the show). --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:54, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::I'm pretty sure having Adama killed is illegal. The fact that Adama is issuing the exact same order (at almost the exact same time) doesn't make it any more legal. Granted, she's dead either way. I'm just curious who's on the other end of that pistol. I'm guessing it's NOT Kara Thrace, and leaning more towards the Gina/Pegasus/Six. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:01, 9 January 2006 (EST)

===if you find the show unenjoyable===

As for you, Centuri, if you find the show unenjoyable, you certainly aren't required to watch it or contribute to the RDM articles here. There are [[TOS|other series]] in need of documentation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:My friend (I hope I may address you as such), you are right. Nobody says that I must watch the RDM (what does "RDM" mean?) series. As a general rule, I do not -- I was so major turned off by what we were given after so many years of waiting. But then, there was the news of the coming of the Pegasus -- I felt that this would be worth checking out. Surly, the introduction of the Pegasus would be a major turning point just as it was in the original series. I had my hopes up that they were going to turn things in a more energetic direction -- and I was sure wrong, it only got worse. Only curiosity about the conclusion has me going now. I will watch the conclusion, only because I want to find out who kills who. As I see it, there are 5 possibilities:

# Kara Thrace carries out the order,
# Kara Thrace fails in the attempt and some other sap succeeds (like Londo's failed attempt on the Emperor's life followed by Vir finishing the job {Babylon 5 season 4])
# Adama never gets the chance to give the order because Cain gives the "Execute Case Orange" order first and Fisk does as he's been ordered. This will mean that Adama will die (and Edward James Olmos decided to leave the show -- small loss) leaving Cain in charge. If this happens, she will probably follow through by destroying ''Colonial One.''
# The opportunity never comes for either order to be carried out. Like the original Pegasus, the upcoming battle results in the ship being MAJOR damaged and dropping from the series (presumed destroyed with all hands).
# Fisk, knows that what he has been ordered to do is wrong, like so many other of Cain's orders. Fisk's conscience finally can't stand it, and he covertly informs Adama of the order, which would be followed by....

:We'll just have to wait and see. I'm just a long time fan of the original. A lot can and can not be said about it. When I saw the episode where Starbuck crashed on a planet where children were riding around on unicorns fighting the Cylons, I knew the show was dead. But it did have some good episodes. Comparison between the 2 is inevitable. Like the comparisons between the various versions of the movie ''The Phantom of the Opera,'' or any other redone work. Sorry, but I did have my hopes up. Did you ever read the Malibu Comics BG series ''Journey's End''? It showed one version of what they could have done. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 22:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::"what does 'RDM' mean?" [[Ronald D. Moore]]. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Yes. We use "RDM" as the namespace on some articles where there are Original Series counterparts, such as [[Galactica (RDM)]] as opposed to [[Galactica (TOS)]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:43, 10 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-10T08:33:29Z

Centuri: /* if you find the show unenjoyable */ spelling

Moved to a page listing her surname first, hope no one minds.

I wonder why the ''Pegasus'' didn't follow Adama's order to rendezvous at Ragnar? Left the system before he sent it, or just Cain's megalomania? [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:50, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
: We may have that answer by this episode. It's a strong possibility that Cain may never have received the message since [[wireless]] has a range limit, and she may have jumped way out of range after the message was sent. Or, going to Ragnar was too hazardous for Pegasus, and Cain had to figure out where the fleet might have headed from Ragnar, in addition to perhaps avoiding her own pursuing Cylons. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:59, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

: Actually, I was thinking of doing entries by their first name. The reason that this was done in the first place was because we, at the time, didn't know how to alphabetize listings by their last name in categories... Unless you have a reason why we should continue with going by surname first, I would like to go to a format with first - middle - last name as the namespace. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:34, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Fine with me, although seems like it's going to take a helluva long time to re-do all the entries. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 19:54, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

===Actress===
http://www.lvrocks.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.cgi?forum=38&thread=2983#1

:''"And the big news was that Jane Seymour (Dr Quinn, East of Eden) from the original series, turned down the role of Admiral Cain. And Lynda Carter (Wonder Woman), Victoria Principal (DALLAS), Susan Lucci (All My Children) and Kate Mulgrew (Star Trek: Voyager) are all being consider for the hopeful female role.''

:''If the role cannot be filled by a woman they are looking at David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) or Don Johnson (Miami Vice) who was in that show with Olmos."''

Personally, I think Kate Mulgrew would be the best choice.

[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:30, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: Out of those choices, I do agree. Mulgrew is a good actress -- pity she was under-used in Voyager, IMHO. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== My new info ==

http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/suncal/cl-ca-lettersannex17jul17,0,7954431.story?coll=cl-suncal

Scroll down to the letter by "Tess Harper." [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 00:40, 18 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== "Spoiler Boxes" ==
The spoiler boxes have a serious flaw--you can't see the "this is a spoiler" line at the top when you're using the Monobook skin. It's too dark to read. I highlighted and ended up seeing the spoiler, and I didn't want to. Of course now I know what the box is and I won't highlight it anymore, but I would appreciate it if the box could be edited to be compatible with all the skins. Thanks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 00:16, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:I'm copying this to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy]], FYI. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:21, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

==Helena?==

SciFi.com is calling her Helena Cain. What do they say in the episode and captions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:''copied from [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters]]''
Okay. So, according to [http://scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/210/ this], Cain's name is Helena, not Nelena. The former seems like a much more, well, reasonable first name, but it could be a typo or whatever. Anyone know where we got Nelena from? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:43, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::IMDB says "Nelena". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:46, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::IMDB doesn't mena jack. Nelena was what all the spoilers called her, although Helena makes much more sense - the name means "Greek woman," which is obviously a connection with the background mythos of the series. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:06, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I know it doesn't mean jack, but SciFi.com isn't always right either. Maybe someone who has the episode on tape could re-watch the scene where she's introduced and chime in? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I taped the episode but they never say her name or see it printed: it's not in the end credits, and at the beginning it just says "Special Guest Star; Michelle Forbes". I checked and it is not in "Pegasus". We should find confirmation in "Resurrection Ship". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:54, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::Um, when has SciFi.com never been right? In fact, they had a lot of stuff before it was even shwon in the show - Tyrol's first name, the Celestra, and the ship specifications. All of those were backed up either by the show or ZOIC. And seeing as every name in the show has been a real name, and Nelena isn't, and Helena works with the Greek centrism of the show, there's no reason to think that it's wrong. And in any event, claiming that IMDb takes precedence over the official site is laughable. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:15, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::::Well, for one thing their older pages spell "Gemenon" as "Geminon", which was contradicted by "Colonial Day" - note that Helena/Nelena is also a one-letter spelling difference. But I don't really feel the need to carry on an argument about whether IMDB or SciFi are more reliable, when we can simply watch the episode over again at our next opportunity and see what the characters actually say. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:37, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
: Please remember to be, well, cautious about content from Sci-Fi and IMDb. They've had errors crop up on both pages before; for instance, Paul Tigh instead of Saul Tigh, and I believe they even indicated that the character [[Grimes]] (in "[[Colonial Day]]") was also an assassin at one point. As for IMDb, they're really hit or miss on things such as this. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:58, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::I can see where a typo could have occurred with the similarity between a capital "N" or "H." Still, it makes it harder when the character name is not used in speech in an episode to verify. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::Isn't she in the credits? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Why?==

I just got done watching Resurrection Ship, Part I -- that sound you heard (like a strem-locomotive being eaten alive) was me. Oh the pain the pain the pain! How could they (the writers) do this? Cain -- in the orginal -- was headstrong and made an "act of tactical misjudgement;" but he was mainly a leader who always inspired others. Even the Galactica personel were awed by him -- so much so that Apollo and Starbuck tried the absurd stunt of flying two "Vipers against Baseships." But this woman makes my skin crawl. Her insubordination to the President is reminicent of MacArthur's own insubordination with President Truman. But for her to openly order her people to murder Adama ''and his command staff'' and take the Galactica -- that is totally out in left field. There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude. The original Cain inspired those under him, but this one commands through fear. No officer like that could ever rise to the rank of Admiral. The orders she has given are illegal and she knows it. The orders she has given are illegal and the people under her know it. And this isn't the first illegal order she's given. She should have been relived when she murdered her XO. You don't obey illegal orders. What the hell is going on here? I have considered this NEW incarnation of the series to be charachter-rape of the worst kind -- and now its gotten wose than I thought possiple. They're going too darn far! Why are they doing this? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:06, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Welcome to the Wiki, Centuri. "I feel your pain." But, this is a different show so we cannot expect the same characterizations or else we'd lose the conflicts and contrasts we've enjoyed so far. This show is not a clone of the original, so a different mindset is required. This is a story of what humanity with its back to the wall. And despite that, the humans still find ways to screw themselves over. I think you did hit upon some similarities between the RDM Cain and her TOS counterpart. This Cain IS well respected by her crew--they have gone through life and death together in a way that ''Galactica's'' crew hadn't quite done in the same scale. Yet Cain is an extremist--her military training has made her forget the reason she and her crew exist--the preservation and protection of the Colonies and her people. She uses the letter of the law and ignores the spirit of the law. For example, if by taking some of her civilian fleet's supplies she would ensure the survival of all of the colonists in those ships as she escorted them out of harm's way, that would be understandable. But she left them to die just to fight--and for what? Roslin said it best; Cain is a threat to the Fleet because she believes that (1) fighting is all that there is to do, and by her rules, and (2) she ignores or forgets that the military serves the people and not the other way around. She will turn on the civilians for the "greater good" of defeating an undefeatable enemy. As far as Cain being relieved of duty, remember that she's built up a lot of morale on her ship through her fights--the crew respect her, if not likes her. They know she kicks ass. And they are also infected with the same fighting attitude that blinds them to what they should really be doing. And her crew also fears her for the same reason--no one but Adama and his crew may have the guts to challenge her. Roslin is completely right when she tells Adama she must be killed. If she doesn't die, EVERYONE may die. The Colonial Fleet wasn't perfect; Cain's promotion likely came through the same poor decisions that doomed them all. Adama has a chance to undo it and gain resources to ensure their survival. Remember, Adama would be Cain if Roslin didn't talk him out of fighting.

:The fact that you are incensed means that the writing is working. :) Take the show as a new story and temporarily place the good story that was "The Living Legend" aside for an hour. This Cain is no hero, but this Adama will step up to the plate as I thought his counterpart should have been in TOS. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:11, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::What you are asking is difficult -- at best. Battlestar Galactica, was a space-war saga. TOS writing was too flawed for the show to survive (THE YOUNG LORDS). However, it still exists as a concept. And that concept was NOT ''The Young & the Resless meets Days of Our Lives and the Guiding Light'' in space! Blah! Sorry, I have a high level of quality expectation with Sci-fi. Take a look at Sci-Fi Channels re-imaging of DUNE -- it was fantastic. They are capable of high quality work, as FARSCAPE demonstrated, but this..... -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 20:04, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Play nice Centuri. If you are expressing your honest concern, fine, but if this turns out to be another sock-puppet pseudonym of Languatron/Spider, abusive/unproductive posting can be banned. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::::"Who are you?" -- "What do you want?" And what are you talking about? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 18:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::Ricimer, I'm going to have to start keeping a private list of your hostile remarks. Expect this to come up at your next RFA. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::::A) No this is not a "hostile remark"; it is a warning that simple trolling is grounds for banning; as this has ''not'' happened, it proved to be unnecessary. Under '''no''' circumstances does saying "play nice, we do ban people who misbehave", without any actual berating, mean "hostility". You are being unfair in this Farago, as when I had that arguement with SgtPayne and you chastized me...only for me to find that the one who offended SgtPayne was ''you'' and not myself. I haven't actually done anything wrong, so please stop tring to get blood from a stone. '''B)''' In hindsight, it appears that Centuri probably ''wasn't'' aware of this, but on many messageboards I go to, this guy named Languatron (or Spider as he now calls himself) floods the messageboards with trollings about how much "Helena Cain" ruined the TOS character. I tried ot introduce BSG to the E Online's new forums, and he kind of destroyed them as they have no moderators there. I am sorry if I have mislabeled this person, but I must say, at first glance it looked like the ''exact same'' rhetoric as the one used by a troll who tried to bring down TNS sites. "I appologize for the inconvenience..."--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:43, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::::It doesn't matter whether the deletion was yours or mine, or whether Centuri is a sockpuppet for someone you know or not. You need to moderate your tone, react less hastily, and extend the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:57, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::::"rhetoric"? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 00:45, 10 January 2006 (EST)

::::1 - who is Ricimer?
::::2 - what is he talking about?
::::-- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::::1 - A regular and prolific contributor here.
:::::2 - I have no idea. Maybe a fight he had on wikipedia. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:27, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:"There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude." Oh, how I wish that were true... As for her orders' illegality, I don't think it's really clear that anything she's done is explicitly illegal -- though that certainly doesn't make her actions acceptable. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:24, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::She ordered her crew to murder civilians. They were lined up against a wall and executed. There is no regulation that can give her the authority to do that. Killing defenceless civilians is prohibited by the articles of war. "All murders committed by any person in the fleet, shall be punished with death by the sentence of a court martial." It was an illegal order -- period! -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Besides the fact that I'm not aware of any specific Colonial laws regarding this, there were potentially Cylons among those civilians, so she could have easily justified it as "possible enemy combatants" (*cough*). It isn't murder unless the killing is explicity against the law, and I don't think that's been established. This is a rather trivial matter though; she's a dead woman walking anyway (as much as I love having her on the show). --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:54, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::I'm pretty sure having Adama killed is illegal. The fact that Adama is issuing the exact same order (at almost the exact same time) doesn't make it any more legal. Granted, she's dead either way. I'm just curious who's on the other end of that pistol. I'm guessing it's NOT Kara Thrace, and leaning more towards the Gina/Pegasus/Six. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:01, 9 January 2006 (EST)

===if you find the show unenjoyable===

As for you, Centuri, if you find the show unenjoyable, you certainly aren't required to watch it or contribute to the RDM articles here. There are [[TOS|other series]] in need of documentation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:My friend (I hope I may address you as such), you are right. Nobody says that I must watch the RDM (what does "RDM" mean?) series. As a general rule, I do not -- I was so major turned off by what we were given after so many years of waiting. But then, there was the news of the coming of the Pegasus -- I felt that this would be worth checking out. Surly, the introduction of the Pegasus would be a major turning point just as it was in the original series. I had my hopes up that they were going to turn things in a more energetic direction -- and I was sure wrong, it only got worse. Only curiousity about the conclusion has Me going now. I will watch the conclusion, only because I want to find out who kills who. As I see it, there are 5 possibilities:

# Kara Thrace carries out the order,
# Kara Thrace fails in the attempt and some other sap succeeds (like Lono's failed attempt on the Emperor's life followed by Vir finishing the job {Babylon 5 season 4])
# Adama never gets the chance to give the order because Cain gives the "Execute Case Orange" order first and Fisk does as he's been ordered. This will mean that Adama will die (and Edward James Olmos decided to leave the show -- small loss) leaving Cain in charge. If this happens, she will probably follow through by destroying ''Colonial One.''
# The oportunity never comes for either order to be carried out. Like the original Peagasus, the upcoming battle results in the ship being MAJOR damaged and droping from the series (presumed destroyed with all hands).
# Fisk, knows that what he has been ordered to do is wrong, like so many other of Cain's orders. Fisk's conscience finnaly can't stand it, and he covertly informs Adama of the order, which would be followed by....

:We'll just have to wait and see. I'm just a long time fan of the original. A lot can and can not be said about it. When I saw the episode where Starbuck crashed on a planet where children were riding around on unicorns fighting the Cylons, I knew the show was dead. But it did have some good episodes. Comparison between the 2 is inevitable. Like the comparisons between the various cversions of the movie ''The Phantom of the Opera,'' or any other redone work. Sorry, but I did have my hopes up. Did you ever read the Malibu Comics BG series ''Journey's End''? It showed one version of what they could have done. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 22:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::"what does 'RDM' mean?" [[Ronald D. Moore]]. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Yes. We use "RDM" as the namespace on some articles where there are Original Series counterparts, such as [[Galactica (RDM)]] as opposed to [[Galactica (TOS)]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:43, 10 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-10T05:49:56Z

Centuri: /* if you find the show unenjoyable */ Adama

Moved to a page listing her surname first, hope no one minds.

I wonder why the ''Pegasus'' didn't follow Adama's order to rendezvous at Ragnar? Left the system before he sent it, or just Cain's megalomania? [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:50, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
: We may have that answer by this episode. It's a strong possibility that Cain may never have received the message since [[wireless]] has a range limit, and she may have jumped way out of range after the message was sent. Or, going to Ragnar was too hazardous for Pegasus, and Cain had to figure out where the fleet might have headed from Ragnar, in addition to perhaps avoiding her own pursuing Cylons. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:59, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

: Actually, I was thinking of doing entries by their first name. The reason that this was done in the first place was because we, at the time, didn't know how to alphabetize listings by their last name in categories... Unless you have a reason why we should continue with going by surname first, I would like to go to a format with first - middle - last name as the namespace. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:34, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Fine with me, although seems like it's going to take a helluva long time to re-do all the entries. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 19:54, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

===Actress===
http://www.lvrocks.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.cgi?forum=38&thread=2983#1

:''"And the big news was that Jane Seymour (Dr Quinn, East of Eden) from the original series, turned down the role of Admiral Cain. And Lynda Carter (Wonder Woman), Victoria Principal (DALLAS), Susan Lucci (All My Children) and Kate Mulgrew (Star Trek: Voyager) are all being consider for the hopeful female role.''

:''If the role cannot be filled by a woman they are looking at David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) or Don Johnson (Miami Vice) who was in that show with Olmos."''

Personally, I think Kate Mulgrew would be the best choice.

[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:30, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: Out of those choices, I do agree. Mulgrew is a good actress -- pity she was under-used in Voyager, IMHO. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== My new info ==

http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/suncal/cl-ca-lettersannex17jul17,0,7954431.story?coll=cl-suncal

Scroll down to the letter by "Tess Harper." [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 00:40, 18 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== "Spoiler Boxes" ==
The spoiler boxes have a serious flaw--you can't see the "this is a spoiler" line at the top when you're using the Monobook skin. It's too dark to read. I highlighted and ended up seeing the spoiler, and I didn't want to. Of course now I know what the box is and I won't highlight it anymore, but I would appreciate it if the box could be edited to be compatible with all the skins. Thanks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 00:16, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:I'm copying this to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy]], FYI. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:21, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

==Helena?==

SciFi.com is calling her Helena Cain. What do they say in the episode and captions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:''copied from [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters]]''
Okay. So, according to [http://scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/210/ this], Cain's name is Helena, not Nelena. The former seems like a much more, well, reasonable first name, but it could be a typo or whatever. Anyone know where we got Nelena from? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:43, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::IMDB says "Nelena". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:46, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::IMDB doesn't mena jack. Nelena was what all the spoilers called her, although Helena makes much more sense - the name means "Greek woman," which is obviously a connection with the background mythos of the series. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:06, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I know it doesn't mean jack, but SciFi.com isn't always right either. Maybe someone who has the episode on tape could re-watch the scene where she's introduced and chime in? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I taped the episode but they never say her name or see it printed: it's not in the end credits, and at the beginning it just says "Special Guest Star; Michelle Forbes". I checked and it is not in "Pegasus". We should find confirmation in "Resurrection Ship". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:54, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::Um, when has SciFi.com never been right? In fact, they had a lot of stuff before it was even shwon in the show - Tyrol's first name, the Celestra, and the ship specifications. All of those were backed up either by the show or ZOIC. And seeing as every name in the show has been a real name, and Nelena isn't, and Helena works with the Greek centrism of the show, there's no reason to think that it's wrong. And in any event, claiming that IMDb takes precedence over the official site is laughable. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:15, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::::Well, for one thing their older pages spell "Gemenon" as "Geminon", which was contradicted by "Colonial Day" - note that Helena/Nelena is also a one-letter spelling difference. But I don't really feel the need to carry on an argument about whether IMDB or SciFi are more reliable, when we can simply watch the episode over again at our next opportunity and see what the characters actually say. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:37, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
: Please remember to be, well, cautious about content from Sci-Fi and IMDb. They've had errors crop up on both pages before; for instance, Paul Tigh instead of Saul Tigh, and I believe they even indicated that the character [[Grimes]] (in "[[Colonial Day]]") was also an assassin at one point. As for IMDb, they're really hit or miss on things such as this. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:58, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::I can see where a typo could have occurred with the similarity between a capital "N" or "H." Still, it makes it harder when the character name is not used in speech in an episode to verify. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::Isn't she in the credits? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Why?==

I just got done watching Resurrection Ship, Part I -- that sound you heard (like a strem-locomotive being eaten alive) was me. Oh the pain the pain the pain! How could they (the writers) do this? Cain -- in the orginal -- was headstrong and made an "act of tactical misjudgement;" but he was mainly a leader who always inspired others. Even the Galactica personel were awed by him -- so much so that Apollo and Starbuck tried the absurd stunt of flying two "Vipers against Baseships." But this woman makes my skin crawl. Her insubordination to the President is reminicent of MacArthur's own insubordination with President Truman. But for her to openly order her people to murder Adama ''and his command staff'' and take the Galactica -- that is totally out in left field. There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude. The original Cain inspired those under him, but this one commands through fear. No officer like that could ever rise to the rank of Admiral. The orders she has given are illegal and she knows it. The orders she has given are illegal and the people under her know it. And this isn't the first illegal order she's given. She should have been relived when she murdered her XO. You don't obey illegal orders. What the hell is going on here? I have considered this NEW incarnation of the series to be charachter-rape of the worst kind -- and now its gotten wose than I thought possiple. They're going too darn far! Why are they doing this? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:06, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Welcome to the Wiki, Centuri. "I feel your pain." But, this is a different show so we cannot expect the same characterizations or else we'd lose the conflicts and contrasts we've enjoyed so far. This show is not a clone of the original, so a different mindset is required. This is a story of what humanity with its back to the wall. And despite that, the humans still find ways to screw themselves over. I think you did hit upon some similarities between the RDM Cain and her TOS counterpart. This Cain IS well respected by her crew--they have gone through life and death together in a way that ''Galactica's'' crew hadn't quite done in the same scale. Yet Cain is an extremist--her military training has made her forget the reason she and her crew exist--the preservation and protection of the Colonies and her people. She uses the letter of the law and ignores the spirit of the law. For example, if by taking some of her civilian fleet's supplies she would ensure the survival of all of the colonists in those ships as she escorted them out of harm's way, that would be understandable. But she left them to die just to fight--and for what? Roslin said it best; Cain is a threat to the Fleet because she believes that (1) fighting is all that there is to do, and by her rules, and (2) she ignores or forgets that the military serves the people and not the other way around. She will turn on the civilians for the "greater good" of defeating an undefeatable enemy. As far as Cain being relieved of duty, remember that she's built up a lot of morale on her ship through her fights--the crew respect her, if not likes her. They know she kicks ass. And they are also infected with the same fighting attitude that blinds them to what they should really be doing. And her crew also fears her for the same reason--no one but Adama and his crew may have the guts to challenge her. Roslin is completely right when she tells Adama she must be killed. If she doesn't die, EVERYONE may die. The Colonial Fleet wasn't perfect; Cain's promotion likely came through the same poor decisions that doomed them all. Adama has a chance to undo it and gain resources to ensure their survival. Remember, Adama would be Cain if Roslin didn't talk him out of fighting.

:The fact that you are incensed means that the writing is working. :) Take the show as a new story and temporarily place the good story that was "The Living Legend" aside for an hour. This Cain is no hero, but this Adama will step up to the plate as I thought his counterpart should have been in TOS. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:11, 8 January 2006 (EST)

What you are asking is difficult -- at best. Battlestar Galactica, was a space-war saga. TOS writing was too flawed for the show to survive (THE YOUNG LORDS). However, it still exists as a concept. And that concept was NOT ''The Young & the Resless meets Days of Our Lives and the Guiding Light'' in space! Blah! Sorry, I have a high level of quality expectation with Sci-fi. Take a look at Sci-Fi Channels re-imaging of DUNE -- it was fantastic. They are capable of high quality work, as FARSCAPE demonstrated, but this..... -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 20:04, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::Play nice Centuri. If you are expressing your honest concern, fine, but if this turns out to be another sock-puppet pseudonym of Languatron/Spider, abusive/unproductive posting can be banned. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:::"Who are you?" -- "What do you want?" And what are you talking about? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 18:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Ricimer, I'm going to have to start keeping a private list of your hostile remarks. Expect this to come up at your next RFA. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::A) No this is not a "hostile remark"; it is a warning that simple trolling is grounds for banning; as this has ''not'' happened, it proved to be unnecessary. Under '''no''' circumstances does saying "play nice, we do ban people who misbehave", without any actual berating, mean "hostility". You are being unfair in this Farago, as when I had that arguement with SgtPayne and you chastized me...only for me to find that the one who offended SgtPayne was ''you'' and not myself. I haven't actually done anything wrong, so please stop tring to get blood from a stone. '''B)''' In hindsight, it appears that Centuri probably ''wasn't'' aware of this, but on many messageboards I go to, this guy named Languatron (or Spider as he now calls himself) floods the messageboards with trollings about how much "Helena Cain" ruined the TOS character. I tried ot introduce BSG to the E Online's new forums, and he kind of destroyed them as they have no moderators there. I am sorry if I have mislabeled this person, but I must say, at first glance it looked like the ''exact same'' rhetoric as the one used by a troll who tried to bring down TNS sites. "I appologize for the inconvenience..."--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:43, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::"rhetoric"? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 00:45, 10 January 2006 (EST)

:::::It doesn't matter whether the deletion was yours or mine, or whether Centuri is a sockpuppet for someone you know or not. You need to moderate your tone, react less hastily, and extend the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:57, 9 January 2006 (EST)
:::1 - who is Ricimer?
:::2 - what is he talking about?
:::-- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::1 - A regular and prolific contributor here.
::::2 - I have no idea. Maybe a fight he had on wikipedia. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:27, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:"There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude." Oh, how I wish that were true... As for her orders' illegality, I don't think it's really clear that anything she's done is explicitly illegal -- though that certainly doesn't make her actions acceptable. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:24, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::She ordered her crew to murder civilians. They were lined up against a wall and executed. There is no regulation that can give her the authority to do that. Killing defenceless civilians is prohibited by the articles of war. "All murders committed by any person in the fleet, shall be punished with death by the sentence of a court martial." It was an illegal order -- period! -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Besides the fact that I'm not aware of any specific Colonial laws regarding this, there were potentially Cylons among those civilians, so she could have easily justified it as "possible enemy combatants" (*cough*). It isn't murder unless the killing is explicity against the law, and I don't think that's been established. This is a rather trivial matter though; she's a dead woman walking anyway (as much as I love having her on the show). --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:54, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::I'm pretty sure having Adama killed is illegal. The fact that Adama is issuing the exact same order (at almost the exact same time) doesn't make it any more legal. Granted, she's dead either way. I'm just curious who's on the other end of that pistol. I'm guessing it's NOT Kara Thrace, and leaning more towards the Gina/Pegasus/Six. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:01, 9 January 2006 (EST)

===if you find the show unenjoyable===

As for you, Centuri, if you find the show unenjoyable, you certainly aren't required to watch it or contribute to the RDM articles here. There are [[TOS|other series]] in need of documentation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:My friend (I hope I may address you as such), you are right. Nobody says that I must watch the RDM (what does "RDM" mean?) series. As a general rule, I do not -- I was so major turned off by what we were given after so many years of waiting. But then, there was the news of the coming of the Pagasus -- I felt that this would be worth checking out. Surly, the introduction of the Pegasus would be a major turning point just as it was in the original series. I had my hopes up that they were going to turn things in a more energetic direction -- and I was sure wrong, it only got worse. Only curiousity about the conclusion has Me going now. I will watch the conclusion, only because I want to find out who kills who. As I see it, there are 5 possibilities:

# Kara Thrace carries out the order,
# Kara Thrace fails in the attempt and some other sap succeeds (like Lono's failed attempt on the Emperor's life followed by Vir finishing the job {Babylon 5 season 4])
# Adama never gets the chance to give the order because Cain gives the "Execute Case Orange" order first and Fisk does as he's been ordered. This will mean that Adama will die (and Edward James Olmos decided to leave the show -- small loss) leaving Cain in charge. If this happens, she will probably follow through by destroying ''Colonial One.''
# The oportunity never comes for either order to be carried out. Like the original Peagasus, the upcoming battle results in the ship being MAJOR damaged and droping from the series (presumed destroyed with all hands).
# Fisk, knows that what he has been ordered to do is wrong, like so many other of Cain's orders. Fisk's conscience finnaly can't stand it, and he covertly informs Adama of the order, which would be followed by....

:We'll just have to wait and see. I'm just a long time fan of the original. A lot can and can not be said about it. When I saw the episode where Starbuck crashed on a planet where children were riding around on unicorns fighting the Cylons, I knew the show was dead. But it did have some good episodes. Comparison between the 2 is inevitable. Like the comparisons between the various cversions of the movie ''The Phantom of the Opera,'' or any other redone work. Sorry, but I did have my hopes up. Did you ever read the Malibu Comics BG series ''Journey's End''? It showed one version of what they could have done. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 22:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::"what does 'RDM' mean?" [[Ronald D. Moore]]. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Yes. We use "RDM" as the namespace on some articles where there are Original Series counterparts, such as [[Galactica (RDM)]] as opposed to [[Galactica (TOS)]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:43, 10 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-10T05:48:39Z

Centuri: /* if you find the show unenjoyable */ ME NOT BE

Moved to a page listing her surname first, hope no one minds.

I wonder why the ''Pegasus'' didn't follow Adama's order to rendezvous at Ragnar? Left the system before he sent it, or just Cain's megalomania? [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:50, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
: We may have that answer by this episode. It's a strong possibility that Cain may never have received the message since [[wireless]] has a range limit, and she may have jumped way out of range after the message was sent. Or, going to Ragnar was too hazardous for Pegasus, and Cain had to figure out where the fleet might have headed from Ragnar, in addition to perhaps avoiding her own pursuing Cylons. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:59, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

: Actually, I was thinking of doing entries by their first name. The reason that this was done in the first place was because we, at the time, didn't know how to alphabetize listings by their last name in categories... Unless you have a reason why we should continue with going by surname first, I would like to go to a format with first - middle - last name as the namespace. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:34, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Fine with me, although seems like it's going to take a helluva long time to re-do all the entries. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 19:54, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

===Actress===
http://www.lvrocks.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.cgi?forum=38&thread=2983#1

:''"And the big news was that Jane Seymour (Dr Quinn, East of Eden) from the original series, turned down the role of Admiral Cain. And Lynda Carter (Wonder Woman), Victoria Principal (DALLAS), Susan Lucci (All My Children) and Kate Mulgrew (Star Trek: Voyager) are all being consider for the hopeful female role.''

:''If the role cannot be filled by a woman they are looking at David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) or Don Johnson (Miami Vice) who was in that show with Olmos."''

Personally, I think Kate Mulgrew would be the best choice.

[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:30, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: Out of those choices, I do agree. Mulgrew is a good actress -- pity she was under-used in Voyager, IMHO. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== My new info ==

http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/suncal/cl-ca-lettersannex17jul17,0,7954431.story?coll=cl-suncal

Scroll down to the letter by "Tess Harper." [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 00:40, 18 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== "Spoiler Boxes" ==
The spoiler boxes have a serious flaw--you can't see the "this is a spoiler" line at the top when you're using the Monobook skin. It's too dark to read. I highlighted and ended up seeing the spoiler, and I didn't want to. Of course now I know what the box is and I won't highlight it anymore, but I would appreciate it if the box could be edited to be compatible with all the skins. Thanks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 00:16, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:I'm copying this to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy]], FYI. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:21, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

==Helena?==

SciFi.com is calling her Helena Cain. What do they say in the episode and captions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:''copied from [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters]]''
Okay. So, according to [http://scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/210/ this], Cain's name is Helena, not Nelena. The former seems like a much more, well, reasonable first name, but it could be a typo or whatever. Anyone know where we got Nelena from? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:43, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::IMDB says "Nelena". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:46, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::IMDB doesn't mena jack. Nelena was what all the spoilers called her, although Helena makes much more sense - the name means "Greek woman," which is obviously a connection with the background mythos of the series. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:06, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I know it doesn't mean jack, but SciFi.com isn't always right either. Maybe someone who has the episode on tape could re-watch the scene where she's introduced and chime in? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I taped the episode but they never say her name or see it printed: it's not in the end credits, and at the beginning it just says "Special Guest Star; Michelle Forbes". I checked and it is not in "Pegasus". We should find confirmation in "Resurrection Ship". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:54, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::Um, when has SciFi.com never been right? In fact, they had a lot of stuff before it was even shwon in the show - Tyrol's first name, the Celestra, and the ship specifications. All of those were backed up either by the show or ZOIC. And seeing as every name in the show has been a real name, and Nelena isn't, and Helena works with the Greek centrism of the show, there's no reason to think that it's wrong. And in any event, claiming that IMDb takes precedence over the official site is laughable. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:15, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::::Well, for one thing their older pages spell "Gemenon" as "Geminon", which was contradicted by "Colonial Day" - note that Helena/Nelena is also a one-letter spelling difference. But I don't really feel the need to carry on an argument about whether IMDB or SciFi are more reliable, when we can simply watch the episode over again at our next opportunity and see what the characters actually say. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:37, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
: Please remember to be, well, cautious about content from Sci-Fi and IMDb. They've had errors crop up on both pages before; for instance, Paul Tigh instead of Saul Tigh, and I believe they even indicated that the character [[Grimes]] (in "[[Colonial Day]]") was also an assassin at one point. As for IMDb, they're really hit or miss on things such as this. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:58, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::I can see where a typo could have occurred with the similarity between a capital "N" or "H." Still, it makes it harder when the character name is not used in speech in an episode to verify. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::Isn't she in the credits? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Why?==

I just got done watching Resurrection Ship, Part I -- that sound you heard (like a strem-locomotive being eaten alive) was me. Oh the pain the pain the pain! How could they (the writers) do this? Cain -- in the orginal -- was headstrong and made an "act of tactical misjudgement;" but he was mainly a leader who always inspired others. Even the Galactica personel were awed by him -- so much so that Apollo and Starbuck tried the absurd stunt of flying two "Vipers against Baseships." But this woman makes my skin crawl. Her insubordination to the President is reminicent of MacArthur's own insubordination with President Truman. But for her to openly order her people to murder Adama ''and his command staff'' and take the Galactica -- that is totally out in left field. There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude. The original Cain inspired those under him, but this one commands through fear. No officer like that could ever rise to the rank of Admiral. The orders she has given are illegal and she knows it. The orders she has given are illegal and the people under her know it. And this isn't the first illegal order she's given. She should have been relived when she murdered her XO. You don't obey illegal orders. What the hell is going on here? I have considered this NEW incarnation of the series to be charachter-rape of the worst kind -- and now its gotten wose than I thought possiple. They're going too darn far! Why are they doing this? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:06, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Welcome to the Wiki, Centuri. "I feel your pain." But, this is a different show so we cannot expect the same characterizations or else we'd lose the conflicts and contrasts we've enjoyed so far. This show is not a clone of the original, so a different mindset is required. This is a story of what humanity with its back to the wall. And despite that, the humans still find ways to screw themselves over. I think you did hit upon some similarities between the RDM Cain and her TOS counterpart. This Cain IS well respected by her crew--they have gone through life and death together in a way that ''Galactica's'' crew hadn't quite done in the same scale. Yet Cain is an extremist--her military training has made her forget the reason she and her crew exist--the preservation and protection of the Colonies and her people. She uses the letter of the law and ignores the spirit of the law. For example, if by taking some of her civilian fleet's supplies she would ensure the survival of all of the colonists in those ships as she escorted them out of harm's way, that would be understandable. But she left them to die just to fight--and for what? Roslin said it best; Cain is a threat to the Fleet because she believes that (1) fighting is all that there is to do, and by her rules, and (2) she ignores or forgets that the military serves the people and not the other way around. She will turn on the civilians for the "greater good" of defeating an undefeatable enemy. As far as Cain being relieved of duty, remember that she's built up a lot of morale on her ship through her fights--the crew respect her, if not likes her. They know she kicks ass. And they are also infected with the same fighting attitude that blinds them to what they should really be doing. And her crew also fears her for the same reason--no one but Adama and his crew may have the guts to challenge her. Roslin is completely right when she tells Adama she must be killed. If she doesn't die, EVERYONE may die. The Colonial Fleet wasn't perfect; Cain's promotion likely came through the same poor decisions that doomed them all. Adama has a chance to undo it and gain resources to ensure their survival. Remember, Adama would be Cain if Roslin didn't talk him out of fighting.

:The fact that you are incensed means that the writing is working. :) Take the show as a new story and temporarily place the good story that was "The Living Legend" aside for an hour. This Cain is no hero, but this Adama will step up to the plate as I thought his counterpart should have been in TOS. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:11, 8 January 2006 (EST)

What you are asking is difficult -- at best. Battlestar Galactica, was a space-war saga. TOS writing was too flawed for the show to survive (THE YOUNG LORDS). However, it still exists as a concept. And that concept was NOT ''The Young & the Resless meets Days of Our Lives and the Guiding Light'' in space! Blah! Sorry, I have a high level of quality expectation with Sci-fi. Take a look at Sci-Fi Channels re-imaging of DUNE -- it was fantastic. They are capable of high quality work, as FARSCAPE demonstrated, but this..... -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 20:04, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::Play nice Centuri. If you are expressing your honest concern, fine, but if this turns out to be another sock-puppet pseudonym of Languatron/Spider, abusive/unproductive posting can be banned. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:::"Who are you?" -- "What do you want?" And what are you talking about? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 18:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Ricimer, I'm going to have to start keeping a private list of your hostile remarks. Expect this to come up at your next RFA. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::A) No this is not a "hostile remark"; it is a warning that simple trolling is grounds for banning; as this has ''not'' happened, it proved to be unnecessary. Under '''no''' circumstances does saying "play nice, we do ban people who misbehave", without any actual berating, mean "hostility". You are being unfair in this Farago, as when I had that arguement with SgtPayne and you chastized me...only for me to find that the one who offended SgtPayne was ''you'' and not myself. I haven't actually done anything wrong, so please stop tring to get blood from a stone. '''B)''' In hindsight, it appears that Centuri probably ''wasn't'' aware of this, but on many messageboards I go to, this guy named Languatron (or Spider as he now calls himself) floods the messageboards with trollings about how much "Helena Cain" ruined the TOS character. I tried ot introduce BSG to the E Online's new forums, and he kind of destroyed them as they have no moderators there. I am sorry if I have mislabeled this person, but I must say, at first glance it looked like the ''exact same'' rhetoric as the one used by a troll who tried to bring down TNS sites. "I appologize for the inconvenience..."--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:43, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::"rhetoric"? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 00:45, 10 January 2006 (EST)

:::::It doesn't matter whether the deletion was yours or mine, or whether Centuri is a sockpuppet for someone you know or not. You need to moderate your tone, react less hastily, and extend the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:57, 9 January 2006 (EST)
:::1 - who is Ricimer?
:::2 - what is he talking about?
:::-- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::1 - A regular and prolific contributor here.
::::2 - I have no idea. Maybe a fight he had on wikipedia. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:27, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:"There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude." Oh, how I wish that were true... As for her orders' illegality, I don't think it's really clear that anything she's done is explicitly illegal -- though that certainly doesn't make her actions acceptable. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:24, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::She ordered her crew to murder civilians. They were lined up against a wall and executed. There is no regulation that can give her the authority to do that. Killing defenceless civilians is prohibited by the articles of war. "All murders committed by any person in the fleet, shall be punished with death by the sentence of a court martial." It was an illegal order -- period! -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Besides the fact that I'm not aware of any specific Colonial laws regarding this, there were potentially Cylons among those civilians, so she could have easily justified it as "possible enemy combatants" (*cough*). It isn't murder unless the killing is explicity against the law, and I don't think that's been established. This is a rather trivial matter though; she's a dead woman walking anyway (as much as I love having her on the show). --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:54, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::I'm pretty sure having Adama killed is illegal. The fact that Adama is issuing the exact same order (at almost the exact same time) doesn't make it any more legal. Granted, she's dead either way. I'm just curious who's on the other end of that pistol. I'm guessing it's NOT Kara Thrace, and leaning more towards the Gina/Pegasus/Six. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:01, 9 January 2006 (EST)

===if you find the show unenjoyable===

As for you, Centuri, if you find the show unenjoyable, you certainly aren't required to watch it or contribute to the RDM articles here. There are [[TOS|other series]] in need of documentation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:My friend (I hope I may address you as such), you are right. Nobody says that I must watch the RDM (what does "RDM" mean?) series. As a general rule, I do not -- I was so major turned off by what we were given after so many years of waiting. But then, there was the news of the coming of the Pagasus -- I felt that this would be worth checking out. Surly, the introduction of the Pegasus would be a major turning point just as it was in the original series. I had my hopes up that they were going to turn things in a more energetic direction -- and I was sure wrong, it only got worse. Only curiousity about the conclusion has Me going now. I will watch the conclusion, only because I want to find out who kills who. As I see it, there are 5 possibilities:

# Kara Thrace carries out the order,
# Kara Thrace fails in the attempt and some other sap succeeds (like Lono's failed attempt on the Emperor's life followed by Vir finishing the job {Babylon 5 season 4])
# Adama never gets the chance to give the order because Cain gives the "Execute Case Orange" order first and Fisk does as he's been ordered. This will mean that Adam will die (and Edward James Olmos decided to leave the show -- small loss) leaving Cain in charge. If this happens, she will probably follow through by destroying ''Colonial One.''
# The oportunity never comes for either order to be carried out. Like the original Peagasus, the upcoming battle results in the ship being MAJOR damaged and droping from the series (presumed destroyed with all hands).
# Fisk, knows that what he has been ordered to do is wrong, like so many other of Cain's orders. Fisk's conscience finnaly can't stand it, and he covertly informs Adama of the order, which would be followed by....

:We'll just have to wait and see. I'm just a long time fan of the original. A lot can and can not be said about it. When I saw the episode where Starbuck crashed on a planet where children were riding around on unicorns fighting the Cylons, I knew the show was dead. But it did have some good episodes. Comparison between the 2 is inevitable. Like the comparisons between the various cversions of the movie ''The Phantom of the Opera,'' or any other redone work. Sorry, but I did have my hopes up. Did you ever read the Malibu Comics BG series ''Journey's End''? It showed one version of what they could have done. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 22:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::"what does 'RDM' mean?" [[Ronald D. Moore]]. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Yes. We use "RDM" as the namespace on some articles where there are Original Series counterparts, such as [[Galactica (RDM)]] as opposed to [[Galactica (TOS)]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:43, 10 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-10T05:45:16Z

Centuri: /* Why? */ rhetoric ?

Moved to a page listing her surname first, hope no one minds.

I wonder why the ''Pegasus'' didn't follow Adama's order to rendezvous at Ragnar? Left the system before he sent it, or just Cain's megalomania? [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:50, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
: We may have that answer by this episode. It's a strong possibility that Cain may never have received the message since [[wireless]] has a range limit, and she may have jumped way out of range after the message was sent. Or, going to Ragnar was too hazardous for Pegasus, and Cain had to figure out where the fleet might have headed from Ragnar, in addition to perhaps avoiding her own pursuing Cylons. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:59, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

: Actually, I was thinking of doing entries by their first name. The reason that this was done in the first place was because we, at the time, didn't know how to alphabetize listings by their last name in categories... Unless you have a reason why we should continue with going by surname first, I would like to go to a format with first - middle - last name as the namespace. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:34, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Fine with me, although seems like it's going to take a helluva long time to re-do all the entries. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 19:54, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

===Actress===
http://www.lvrocks.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.cgi?forum=38&thread=2983#1

:''"And the big news was that Jane Seymour (Dr Quinn, East of Eden) from the original series, turned down the role of Admiral Cain. And Lynda Carter (Wonder Woman), Victoria Principal (DALLAS), Susan Lucci (All My Children) and Kate Mulgrew (Star Trek: Voyager) are all being consider for the hopeful female role.''

:''If the role cannot be filled by a woman they are looking at David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) or Don Johnson (Miami Vice) who was in that show with Olmos."''

Personally, I think Kate Mulgrew would be the best choice.

[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:30, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: Out of those choices, I do agree. Mulgrew is a good actress -- pity she was under-used in Voyager, IMHO. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== My new info ==

http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/suncal/cl-ca-lettersannex17jul17,0,7954431.story?coll=cl-suncal

Scroll down to the letter by "Tess Harper." [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 00:40, 18 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== "Spoiler Boxes" ==
The spoiler boxes have a serious flaw--you can't see the "this is a spoiler" line at the top when you're using the Monobook skin. It's too dark to read. I highlighted and ended up seeing the spoiler, and I didn't want to. Of course now I know what the box is and I won't highlight it anymore, but I would appreciate it if the box could be edited to be compatible with all the skins. Thanks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 00:16, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:I'm copying this to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy]], FYI. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:21, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

==Helena?==

SciFi.com is calling her Helena Cain. What do they say in the episode and captions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:''copied from [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters]]''
Okay. So, according to [http://scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/210/ this], Cain's name is Helena, not Nelena. The former seems like a much more, well, reasonable first name, but it could be a typo or whatever. Anyone know where we got Nelena from? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:43, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::IMDB says "Nelena". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:46, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::IMDB doesn't mena jack. Nelena was what all the spoilers called her, although Helena makes much more sense - the name means "Greek woman," which is obviously a connection with the background mythos of the series. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:06, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I know it doesn't mean jack, but SciFi.com isn't always right either. Maybe someone who has the episode on tape could re-watch the scene where she's introduced and chime in? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I taped the episode but they never say her name or see it printed: it's not in the end credits, and at the beginning it just says "Special Guest Star; Michelle Forbes". I checked and it is not in "Pegasus". We should find confirmation in "Resurrection Ship". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:54, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::Um, when has SciFi.com never been right? In fact, they had a lot of stuff before it was even shwon in the show - Tyrol's first name, the Celestra, and the ship specifications. All of those were backed up either by the show or ZOIC. And seeing as every name in the show has been a real name, and Nelena isn't, and Helena works with the Greek centrism of the show, there's no reason to think that it's wrong. And in any event, claiming that IMDb takes precedence over the official site is laughable. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:15, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::::Well, for one thing their older pages spell "Gemenon" as "Geminon", which was contradicted by "Colonial Day" - note that Helena/Nelena is also a one-letter spelling difference. But I don't really feel the need to carry on an argument about whether IMDB or SciFi are more reliable, when we can simply watch the episode over again at our next opportunity and see what the characters actually say. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:37, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
: Please remember to be, well, cautious about content from Sci-Fi and IMDb. They've had errors crop up on both pages before; for instance, Paul Tigh instead of Saul Tigh, and I believe they even indicated that the character [[Grimes]] (in "[[Colonial Day]]") was also an assassin at one point. As for IMDb, they're really hit or miss on things such as this. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:58, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::I can see where a typo could have occurred with the similarity between a capital "N" or "H." Still, it makes it harder when the character name is not used in speech in an episode to verify. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::Isn't she in the credits? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Why?==

I just got done watching Resurrection Ship, Part I -- that sound you heard (like a strem-locomotive being eaten alive) was me. Oh the pain the pain the pain! How could they (the writers) do this? Cain -- in the orginal -- was headstrong and made an "act of tactical misjudgement;" but he was mainly a leader who always inspired others. Even the Galactica personel were awed by him -- so much so that Apollo and Starbuck tried the absurd stunt of flying two "Vipers against Baseships." But this woman makes my skin crawl. Her insubordination to the President is reminicent of MacArthur's own insubordination with President Truman. But for her to openly order her people to murder Adama ''and his command staff'' and take the Galactica -- that is totally out in left field. There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude. The original Cain inspired those under him, but this one commands through fear. No officer like that could ever rise to the rank of Admiral. The orders she has given are illegal and she knows it. The orders she has given are illegal and the people under her know it. And this isn't the first illegal order she's given. She should have been relived when she murdered her XO. You don't obey illegal orders. What the hell is going on here? I have considered this NEW incarnation of the series to be charachter-rape of the worst kind -- and now its gotten wose than I thought possiple. They're going too darn far! Why are they doing this? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:06, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Welcome to the Wiki, Centuri. "I feel your pain." But, this is a different show so we cannot expect the same characterizations or else we'd lose the conflicts and contrasts we've enjoyed so far. This show is not a clone of the original, so a different mindset is required. This is a story of what humanity with its back to the wall. And despite that, the humans still find ways to screw themselves over. I think you did hit upon some similarities between the RDM Cain and her TOS counterpart. This Cain IS well respected by her crew--they have gone through life and death together in a way that ''Galactica's'' crew hadn't quite done in the same scale. Yet Cain is an extremist--her military training has made her forget the reason she and her crew exist--the preservation and protection of the Colonies and her people. She uses the letter of the law and ignores the spirit of the law. For example, if by taking some of her civilian fleet's supplies she would ensure the survival of all of the colonists in those ships as she escorted them out of harm's way, that would be understandable. But she left them to die just to fight--and for what? Roslin said it best; Cain is a threat to the Fleet because she believes that (1) fighting is all that there is to do, and by her rules, and (2) she ignores or forgets that the military serves the people and not the other way around. She will turn on the civilians for the "greater good" of defeating an undefeatable enemy. As far as Cain being relieved of duty, remember that she's built up a lot of morale on her ship through her fights--the crew respect her, if not likes her. They know she kicks ass. And they are also infected with the same fighting attitude that blinds them to what they should really be doing. And her crew also fears her for the same reason--no one but Adama and his crew may have the guts to challenge her. Roslin is completely right when she tells Adama she must be killed. If she doesn't die, EVERYONE may die. The Colonial Fleet wasn't perfect; Cain's promotion likely came through the same poor decisions that doomed them all. Adama has a chance to undo it and gain resources to ensure their survival. Remember, Adama would be Cain if Roslin didn't talk him out of fighting.

:The fact that you are incensed means that the writing is working. :) Take the show as a new story and temporarily place the good story that was "The Living Legend" aside for an hour. This Cain is no hero, but this Adama will step up to the plate as I thought his counterpart should have been in TOS. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:11, 8 January 2006 (EST)

What you are asking is difficult -- at best. Battlestar Galactica, was a space-war saga. TOS writing was too flawed for the show to survive (THE YOUNG LORDS). However, it still exists as a concept. And that concept was NOT ''The Young & the Resless meets Days of Our Lives and the Guiding Light'' in space! Blah! Sorry, I have a high level of quality expectation with Sci-fi. Take a look at Sci-Fi Channels re-imaging of DUNE -- it was fantastic. They are capable of high quality work, as FARSCAPE demonstrated, but this..... -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 20:04, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::Play nice Centuri. If you are expressing your honest concern, fine, but if this turns out to be another sock-puppet pseudonym of Languatron/Spider, abusive/unproductive posting can be banned. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:::"Who are you?" -- "What do you want?" And what are you talking about? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 18:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Ricimer, I'm going to have to start keeping a private list of your hostile remarks. Expect this to come up at your next RFA. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::A) No this is not a "hostile remark"; it is a warning that simple trolling is grounds for banning; as this has ''not'' happened, it proved to be unnecessary. Under '''no''' circumstances does saying "play nice, we do ban people who misbehave", without any actual berating, mean "hostility". You are being unfair in this Farago, as when I had that arguement with SgtPayne and you chastized me...only for me to find that the one who offended SgtPayne was ''you'' and not myself. I haven't actually done anything wrong, so please stop tring to get blood from a stone. '''B)''' In hindsight, it appears that Centuri probably ''wasn't'' aware of this, but on many messageboards I go to, this guy named Languatron (or Spider as he now calls himself) floods the messageboards with trollings about how much "Helena Cain" ruined the TOS character. I tried ot introduce BSG to the E Online's new forums, and he kind of destroyed them as they have no moderators there. I am sorry if I have mislabeled this person, but I must say, at first glance it looked like the ''exact same'' rhetoric as the one used by a troll who tried to bring down TNS sites. "I appologize for the inconvenience..."--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:43, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::"rhetoric"? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 00:45, 10 January 2006 (EST)

:::::It doesn't matter whether the deletion was yours or mine, or whether Centuri is a sockpuppet for someone you know or not. You need to moderate your tone, react less hastily, and extend the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:57, 9 January 2006 (EST)
:::1 - who is Ricimer?
:::2 - what is he talking about?
:::-- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::1 - A regular and prolific contributor here.
::::2 - I have no idea. Maybe a fight he had on wikipedia. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:27, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:"There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude." Oh, how I wish that were true... As for her orders' illegality, I don't think it's really clear that anything she's done is explicitly illegal -- though that certainly doesn't make her actions acceptable. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:24, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::She ordered her crew to murder civilians. They were lined up against a wall and executed. There is no regulation that can give her the authority to do that. Killing defenceless civilians is prohibited by the articles of war. "All murders committed by any person in the fleet, shall be punished with death by the sentence of a court martial." It was an illegal order -- period! -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Besides the fact that I'm not aware of any specific Colonial laws regarding this, there were potentially Cylons among those civilians, so she could have easily justified it as "possible enemy combatants" (*cough*). It isn't murder unless the killing is explicity against the law, and I don't think that's been established. This is a rather trivial matter though; she's a dead woman walking anyway (as much as I love having her on the show). --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:54, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::I'm pretty sure having Adama killed is illegal. The fact that Adama is issuing the exact same order (at almost the exact same time) doesn't make it any more legal. Granted, she's dead either way. I'm just curious who's on the other end of that pistol. I'm guessing it's NOT Kara Thrace, and leaning more towards the Gina/Pegasus/Six. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:01, 9 January 2006 (EST)

===if you find the show unenjoyable===

As for you, Centuri, if you find the show unenjoyable, you certainly aren't required to watch it or contribute to the RDM articles here. There are [[TOS|other series]] in need of documentation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:My friend (I hope I may address you as such), you are right. Nobody says that I must watch the RDM (what does "RDM" mean?) series. As a general rule, I do not -- I was so major turned off by what we were given after so many years of waiting. But then, there was the news of the coming of the Pagasus -- I felt that this would be worth checking out. Surly, the introduction of the Pegasus would be a major turning point just as it was in the original series. I had my hopes up that they were going to turn things in a more energetic direction -- and I was sure wrong, it only got worse. Only curiousity about the conclusion has be going now. I will watch the conclusion, only because I want to find out who kills who. As I see it, there are 5 possibilities:

# Kara Thrace carries out the order,
# Kara Thrace fails in the attempt and some other sap succeeds (like Lono's failed attempt on the Emperor's life followed by Vir finishing the job {Babylon 5 season 4])
# Adama never gets the chance to give the order because Cain gives the "Execute Case Orange" order first and Fisk does as he's been ordered. This will mean that Adam will die (and Edward James Olmos decided to leave the show -- small loss) leaving Cain in charge. If this happens, she will probably follow through by destroying ''Colonial One.''
# The oportunity never comes for either order to be carried out. Like the original Peagasus, the upcoming battle results in the ship being MAJOR damaged and droping from the series (presumed destroyed with all hands).
# Fisk, knows that what he has been ordered to do is wrong, like so many other of Cain's orders. Fisk's conscience finnaly can't stand it, and he covertly informs Adama of the order, which would be followed by....

:We'll just have to wait and see. I'm just a long time fan of the original. A lot can and can not be said about it. When I saw the episode where Starbuck crashed on a planet where children were riding around on unicorns fighting the Cylons, I knew the show was dead. But it did have some good episodes. Comparison between the 2 is inevitable. Like the comparisons between the various cversions of the movie ''The Phantom of the Opera,'' or any other redone work. Sorry, but I did have my hopes up. Did you ever read the Malibu Comics BG series ''Journey's End''? It showed one version of what they could have done. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 22:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::"what does 'RDM' mean?" [[Ronald D. Moore]]. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Yes. We use "RDM" as the namespace on some articles where there are Original Series counterparts, such as [[Galactica (RDM)]] as opposed to [[Galactica (TOS)]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:43, 10 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-10T04:39:24Z

Centuri: /* if you find the show unenjoyable */ spelling

Moved to a page listing her surname first, hope no one minds.

I wonder why the ''Pegasus'' didn't follow Adama's order to rendezvous at Ragnar? Left the system before he sent it, or just Cain's megalomania? [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:50, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
: We may have that answer by this episode. It's a strong possibility that Cain may never have received the message since [[wireless]] has a range limit, and she may have jumped way out of range after the message was sent. Or, going to Ragnar was too hazardous for Pegasus, and Cain had to figure out where the fleet might have headed from Ragnar, in addition to perhaps avoiding her own pursuing Cylons. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:59, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

: Actually, I was thinking of doing entries by their first name. The reason that this was done in the first place was because we, at the time, didn't know how to alphabetize listings by their last name in categories... Unless you have a reason why we should continue with going by surname first, I would like to go to a format with first - middle - last name as the namespace. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:34, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Fine with me, although seems like it's going to take a helluva long time to re-do all the entries. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 19:54, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

===Actress===
http://www.lvrocks.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.cgi?forum=38&thread=2983#1

:''"And the big news was that Jane Seymour (Dr Quinn, East of Eden) from the original series, turned down the role of Admiral Cain. And Lynda Carter (Wonder Woman), Victoria Principal (DALLAS), Susan Lucci (All My Children) and Kate Mulgrew (Star Trek: Voyager) are all being consider for the hopeful female role.''

:''If the role cannot be filled by a woman they are looking at David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) or Don Johnson (Miami Vice) who was in that show with Olmos."''

Personally, I think Kate Mulgrew would be the best choice.

[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:30, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: Out of those choices, I do agree. Mulgrew is a good actress -- pity she was under-used in Voyager, IMHO. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== My new info ==

http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/suncal/cl-ca-lettersannex17jul17,0,7954431.story?coll=cl-suncal

Scroll down to the letter by "Tess Harper." [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 00:40, 18 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== "Spoiler Boxes" ==
The spoiler boxes have a serious flaw--you can't see the "this is a spoiler" line at the top when you're using the Monobook skin. It's too dark to read. I highlighted and ended up seeing the spoiler, and I didn't want to. Of course now I know what the box is and I won't highlight it anymore, but I would appreciate it if the box could be edited to be compatible with all the skins. Thanks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 00:16, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:I'm copying this to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy]], FYI. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:21, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

==Helena?==

SciFi.com is calling her Helena Cain. What do they say in the episode and captions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:''copied from [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters]]''
Okay. So, according to [http://scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/210/ this], Cain's name is Helena, not Nelena. The former seems like a much more, well, reasonable first name, but it could be a typo or whatever. Anyone know where we got Nelena from? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:43, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::IMDB says "Nelena". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:46, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::IMDB doesn't mena jack. Nelena was what all the spoilers called her, although Helena makes much more sense - the name means "Greek woman," which is obviously a connection with the background mythos of the series. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:06, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I know it doesn't mean jack, but SciFi.com isn't always right either. Maybe someone who has the episode on tape could re-watch the scene where she's introduced and chime in? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I taped the episode but they never say her name or see it printed: it's not in the end credits, and at the beginning it just says "Special Guest Star; Michelle Forbes". I checked and it is not in "Pegasus". We should find confirmation in "Resurrection Ship". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:54, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::Um, when has SciFi.com never been right? In fact, they had a lot of stuff before it was even shwon in the show - Tyrol's first name, the Celestra, and the ship specifications. All of those were backed up either by the show or ZOIC. And seeing as every name in the show has been a real name, and Nelena isn't, and Helena works with the Greek centrism of the show, there's no reason to think that it's wrong. And in any event, claiming that IMDb takes precedence over the official site is laughable. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:15, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::::Well, for one thing their older pages spell "Gemenon" as "Geminon", which was contradicted by "Colonial Day" - note that Helena/Nelena is also a one-letter spelling difference. But I don't really feel the need to carry on an argument about whether IMDB or SciFi are more reliable, when we can simply watch the episode over again at our next opportunity and see what the characters actually say. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:37, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
: Please remember to be, well, cautious about content from Sci-Fi and IMDb. They've had errors crop up on both pages before; for instance, Paul Tigh instead of Saul Tigh, and I believe they even indicated that the character [[Grimes]] (in "[[Colonial Day]]") was also an assassin at one point. As for IMDb, they're really hit or miss on things such as this. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:58, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::I can see where a typo could have occurred with the similarity between a capital "N" or "H." Still, it makes it harder when the character name is not used in speech in an episode to verify. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::Isn't she in the credits? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Why?==

I just got done watching Resurrection Ship, Part I -- that sound you heard (like a strem-locomotive being eaten alive) was me. Oh the pain the pain the pain! How could they (the writers) do this? Cain -- in the orginal -- was headstrong and made an "act of tactical misjudgement;" but he was mainly a leader who always inspired others. Even the Galactica personel were awed by him -- so much so that Apollo and Starbuck tried the absurd stunt of flying two "Vipers against Baseships." But this woman makes my skin crawl. Her insubordination to the President is reminicent of MacArthur's own insubordination with President Truman. But for her to openly order her people to murder Adama ''and his command staff'' and take the Galactica -- that is totally out in left field. There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude. The original Cain inspired those under him, but this one commands through fear. No officer like that could ever rise to the rank of Admiral. The orders she has given are illegal and she knows it. The orders she has given are illegal and the people under her know it. And this isn't the first illegal order she's given. She should have been relived when she murdered her XO. You don't obey illegal orders. What the hell is going on here? I have considered this NEW incarnation of the series to be charachter-rape of the worst kind -- and now its gotten wose than I thought possiple. They're going too darn far! Why are they doing this? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:06, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Welcome to the Wiki, Centuri. "I feel your pain." But, this is a different show so we cannot expect the same characterizations or else we'd lose the conflicts and contrasts we've enjoyed so far. This show is not a clone of the original, so a different mindset is required. This is a story of what humanity with its back to the wall. And despite that, the humans still find ways to screw themselves over. I think you did hit upon some similarities between the RDM Cain and her TOS counterpart. This Cain IS well respected by her crew--they have gone through life and death together in a way that ''Galactica's'' crew hadn't quite done in the same scale. Yet Cain is an extremist--her military training has made her forget the reason she and her crew exist--the preservation and protection of the Colonies and her people. She uses the letter of the law and ignores the spirit of the law. For example, if by taking some of her civilian fleet's supplies she would ensure the survival of all of the colonists in those ships as she escorted them out of harm's way, that would be understandable. But she left them to die just to fight--and for what? Roslin said it best; Cain is a threat to the Fleet because she believes that (1) fighting is all that there is to do, and by her rules, and (2) she ignores or forgets that the military serves the people and not the other way around. She will turn on the civilians for the "greater good" of defeating an undefeatable enemy. As far as Cain being relieved of duty, remember that she's built up a lot of morale on her ship through her fights--the crew respect her, if not likes her. They know she kicks ass. And they are also infected with the same fighting attitude that blinds them to what they should really be doing. And her crew also fears her for the same reason--no one but Adama and his crew may have the guts to challenge her. Roslin is completely right when she tells Adama she must be killed. If she doesn't die, EVERYONE may die. The Colonial Fleet wasn't perfect; Cain's promotion likely came through the same poor decisions that doomed them all. Adama has a chance to undo it and gain resources to ensure their survival. Remember, Adama would be Cain if Roslin didn't talk him out of fighting.

:The fact that you are incensed means that the writing is working. :) Take the show as a new story and temporarily place the good story that was "The Living Legend" aside for an hour. This Cain is no hero, but this Adama will step up to the plate as I thought his counterpart should have been in TOS. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:11, 8 January 2006 (EST)

What you are asking is difficult -- at best. Battlestar Galactica, was a space-war saga. TOS writing was too flawed for the show to survive (THE YOUNG LORDS). However, it still exists as a concept. And that concept was NOT ''The Young & the Resless meets Days of Our Lives and the Guiding Light'' in space! Blah! Sorry, I have a high level of quality expectation with Sci-fi. Take a look at Sci-Fi Channels re-imaging of DUNE -- it was fantastic. They are capable of high quality work, as FARSCAPE demonstrated, but this..... -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 20:04, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::Play nice Centuri. If you are expressing your honest concern, fine, but if this turns out to be another sock-puppet pseudonym of Languatron/Spider, abusive/unproductive posting can be banned. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:::"Who are you?" -- "What do you want?" And what are you talking about? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 18:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Ricimer, I'm going to have to start keeping a private list of your hostile remarks. Expect this to come up at your next RFA. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::A) No this is not a "hostile remark"; it is a warning that simple trolling is grounds for banning; as this has ''not'' happened, it proved to be unnecessary. Under '''no''' circumstances does saying "play nice, we do ban people who misbehave", without any actual berating, mean "hostility". You are being unfair in this Farago, as when I had that arguement with SgtPayne and you chastized me...only for me to find that the one who offended SgtPayne was ''you'' and not myself. I haven't actually done anything wrong, so please stop tring to get blood from a stone. '''B)''' In hindsight, it appears that Centuri probably ''wasn't'' aware of this, but on many messageboards I go to, this guy named Languatron (or Spider as he now calls himself) floods the messageboards with trollings about how much "Helena Cain" ruined the TOS character. I tried ot introduce BSG to the E Online's new forums, and he kind of destroyed them as they have no moderators there. I am sorry if I have mislabeled this person, but I must say, at first glance it looked like the ''exact same'' rhetoric as the one used by a troll who tried to bring down TNS sites. "I appologize for the inconvenience..."--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:43, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::::It doesn't matter whether the deletion was yours or mine, or whether Centuri is a sockpuppet for someone you know or not. You need to moderate your tone, react less hastily, and extend the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:57, 9 January 2006 (EST)
:::1 - who is Ricimer?
:::2 - what is he talking about?
:::-- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::1 - A regular and prolific contributor here.
::::2 - I have no idea. Maybe a fight he had on wikipedia. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:27, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:"There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude." Oh, how I wish that were true... As for her orders' illegality, I don't think it's really clear that anything she's done is explicitly illegal -- though that certainly doesn't make her actions acceptable. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:24, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::She ordered her crew to murder civilians. They were lined up against a wall and executed. There is no regulation that can give her the authority to do that. Killing defenceless civilians is prohibited by the articles of war. "All murders committed by any person in the fleet, shall be punished with death by the sentence of a court martial." It was an illegal order -- period! -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Besides the fact that I'm not aware of any specific Colonial laws regarding this, there were potentially Cylons among those civilians, so she could have easily justified it as "possible enemy combatants" (*cough*). It isn't murder unless the killing is explicity against the law, and I don't think that's been established. This is a rather trivial matter though; she's a dead woman walking anyway (as much as I love having her on the show). --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:54, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::I'm pretty sure having Adama killed is illegal. The fact that Adama is issuing the exact same order (at almost the exact same time) doesn't make it any more legal. Granted, she's dead either way. I'm just curious who's on the other end of that pistol. I'm guessing it's NOT Kara Thrace, and leaning more towards the Gina/Pegasus/Six. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:01, 9 January 2006 (EST)

===if you find the show unenjoyable===

As for you, Centuri, if you find the show unenjoyable, you certainly aren't required to watch it or contribute to the RDM articles here. There are [[TOS|other series]] in need of documentation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:My friend (I hope I may address you as such), you are right. Nobody says that I must watch the RDM (what does "RDM" mean?) series. As a general rule, I do not -- I was so major turned off by what we were given after so many years of waiting. But then, there was the news of the coming of the Pagasus -- I felt that this would be worth checking out. Surly, the introduction of the Pegasus would be a major turning point just as it was in the original series. I had my hopes up that they were going to turn things in a more energetic direction -- and I was sure wrong, it only got worse. Only curiousity about the conclusion has be going now. I will watch the conclusion, only because I want to find out who kills who. As I see it, there are 5 possibilities:

# Kara Thrace carries out the order,
# Kara Thrace fails in the attempt and some other sap succeeds (like Lono's failed attempt on the Emperor's life followed by Vir finishing the job {Babylon 5 season 4])
# Adama never gets the chance to give the order because Cain gives the "Execute Case Orange" order first and Fisk does as he's been ordered. This will mean that Adam will die (and Edward James Olmos decided to leave the show -- small loss) leaving Cain in charge. If this happens, she will probably follow through by destroying ''Colonial One.''
# The oportunity never comes for either order to be carried out. Like the original Peagasus, the upcoming battle results in the ship being MAJOR damaged and droping from the series (presumed destroyed with all hands).
# Fisk, knows that what he has been ordered to do is wrong, like so many other of Cain's orders. Fisk's conscience finnaly can't stand it, and he covertly informs Adama of the order, which would be followed by....

:We'll just have to wait and see. I'm just a long time fan of the original. A lot can and can not be said about it. When I saw the episode where Starbuck crashed on a planet where children were riding around on unicorns fighting the Cylons, I knew the show was dead. But it did have some good episodes. Comparison between the 2 is inevitable. Like the comparisons between the various cversions of the movie ''The Phantom of the Opera,'' or any other redone work. Sorry, but I did have my hopes up. Did you ever read the Malibu Comics BG series ''Journey's End''? It showed one version of what they could have done. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 22:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::"what does 'RDM' mean?" [[Ronald D. Moore]]. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-10T04:36:03Z

Centuri: /* if you find the show unenjoyable */ spelling

Moved to a page listing her surname first, hope no one minds.

I wonder why the ''Pegasus'' didn't follow Adama's order to rendezvous at Ragnar? Left the system before he sent it, or just Cain's megalomania? [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:50, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
: We may have that answer by this episode. It's a strong possibility that Cain may never have received the message since [[wireless]] has a range limit, and she may have jumped way out of range after the message was sent. Or, going to Ragnar was too hazardous for Pegasus, and Cain had to figure out where the fleet might have headed from Ragnar, in addition to perhaps avoiding her own pursuing Cylons. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:59, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

: Actually, I was thinking of doing entries by their first name. The reason that this was done in the first place was because we, at the time, didn't know how to alphabetize listings by their last name in categories... Unless you have a reason why we should continue with going by surname first, I would like to go to a format with first - middle - last name as the namespace. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:34, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Fine with me, although seems like it's going to take a helluva long time to re-do all the entries. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 19:54, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

===Actress===
http://www.lvrocks.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.cgi?forum=38&thread=2983#1

:''"And the big news was that Jane Seymour (Dr Quinn, East of Eden) from the original series, turned down the role of Admiral Cain. And Lynda Carter (Wonder Woman), Victoria Principal (DALLAS), Susan Lucci (All My Children) and Kate Mulgrew (Star Trek: Voyager) are all being consider for the hopeful female role.''

:''If the role cannot be filled by a woman they are looking at David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) or Don Johnson (Miami Vice) who was in that show with Olmos."''

Personally, I think Kate Mulgrew would be the best choice.

[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:30, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: Out of those choices, I do agree. Mulgrew is a good actress -- pity she was under-used in Voyager, IMHO. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== My new info ==

http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/suncal/cl-ca-lettersannex17jul17,0,7954431.story?coll=cl-suncal

Scroll down to the letter by "Tess Harper." [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 00:40, 18 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== "Spoiler Boxes" ==
The spoiler boxes have a serious flaw--you can't see the "this is a spoiler" line at the top when you're using the Monobook skin. It's too dark to read. I highlighted and ended up seeing the spoiler, and I didn't want to. Of course now I know what the box is and I won't highlight it anymore, but I would appreciate it if the box could be edited to be compatible with all the skins. Thanks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 00:16, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:I'm copying this to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy]], FYI. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:21, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

==Helena?==

SciFi.com is calling her Helena Cain. What do they say in the episode and captions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:''copied from [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters]]''
Okay. So, according to [http://scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/210/ this], Cain's name is Helena, not Nelena. The former seems like a much more, well, reasonable first name, but it could be a typo or whatever. Anyone know where we got Nelena from? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:43, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::IMDB says "Nelena". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:46, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::IMDB doesn't mena jack. Nelena was what all the spoilers called her, although Helena makes much more sense - the name means "Greek woman," which is obviously a connection with the background mythos of the series. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:06, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I know it doesn't mean jack, but SciFi.com isn't always right either. Maybe someone who has the episode on tape could re-watch the scene where she's introduced and chime in? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I taped the episode but they never say her name or see it printed: it's not in the end credits, and at the beginning it just says "Special Guest Star; Michelle Forbes". I checked and it is not in "Pegasus". We should find confirmation in "Resurrection Ship". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:54, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::Um, when has SciFi.com never been right? In fact, they had a lot of stuff before it was even shwon in the show - Tyrol's first name, the Celestra, and the ship specifications. All of those were backed up either by the show or ZOIC. And seeing as every name in the show has been a real name, and Nelena isn't, and Helena works with the Greek centrism of the show, there's no reason to think that it's wrong. And in any event, claiming that IMDb takes precedence over the official site is laughable. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:15, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::::Well, for one thing their older pages spell "Gemenon" as "Geminon", which was contradicted by "Colonial Day" - note that Helena/Nelena is also a one-letter spelling difference. But I don't really feel the need to carry on an argument about whether IMDB or SciFi are more reliable, when we can simply watch the episode over again at our next opportunity and see what the characters actually say. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:37, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
: Please remember to be, well, cautious about content from Sci-Fi and IMDb. They've had errors crop up on both pages before; for instance, Paul Tigh instead of Saul Tigh, and I believe they even indicated that the character [[Grimes]] (in "[[Colonial Day]]") was also an assassin at one point. As for IMDb, they're really hit or miss on things such as this. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:58, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::I can see where a typo could have occurred with the similarity between a capital "N" or "H." Still, it makes it harder when the character name is not used in speech in an episode to verify. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::Isn't she in the credits? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Why?==

I just got done watching Resurrection Ship, Part I -- that sound you heard (like a strem-locomotive being eaten alive) was me. Oh the pain the pain the pain! How could they (the writers) do this? Cain -- in the orginal -- was headstrong and made an "act of tactical misjudgement;" but he was mainly a leader who always inspired others. Even the Galactica personel were awed by him -- so much so that Apollo and Starbuck tried the absurd stunt of flying two "Vipers against Baseships." But this woman makes my skin crawl. Her insubordination to the President is reminicent of MacArthur's own insubordination with President Truman. But for her to openly order her people to murder Adama ''and his command staff'' and take the Galactica -- that is totally out in left field. There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude. The original Cain inspired those under him, but this one commands through fear. No officer like that could ever rise to the rank of Admiral. The orders she has given are illegal and she knows it. The orders she has given are illegal and the people under her know it. And this isn't the first illegal order she's given. She should have been relived when she murdered her XO. You don't obey illegal orders. What the hell is going on here? I have considered this NEW incarnation of the series to be charachter-rape of the worst kind -- and now its gotten wose than I thought possiple. They're going too darn far! Why are they doing this? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:06, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Welcome to the Wiki, Centuri. "I feel your pain." But, this is a different show so we cannot expect the same characterizations or else we'd lose the conflicts and contrasts we've enjoyed so far. This show is not a clone of the original, so a different mindset is required. This is a story of what humanity with its back to the wall. And despite that, the humans still find ways to screw themselves over. I think you did hit upon some similarities between the RDM Cain and her TOS counterpart. This Cain IS well respected by her crew--they have gone through life and death together in a way that ''Galactica's'' crew hadn't quite done in the same scale. Yet Cain is an extremist--her military training has made her forget the reason she and her crew exist--the preservation and protection of the Colonies and her people. She uses the letter of the law and ignores the spirit of the law. For example, if by taking some of her civilian fleet's supplies she would ensure the survival of all of the colonists in those ships as she escorted them out of harm's way, that would be understandable. But she left them to die just to fight--and for what? Roslin said it best; Cain is a threat to the Fleet because she believes that (1) fighting is all that there is to do, and by her rules, and (2) she ignores or forgets that the military serves the people and not the other way around. She will turn on the civilians for the "greater good" of defeating an undefeatable enemy. As far as Cain being relieved of duty, remember that she's built up a lot of morale on her ship through her fights--the crew respect her, if not likes her. They know she kicks ass. And they are also infected with the same fighting attitude that blinds them to what they should really be doing. And her crew also fears her for the same reason--no one but Adama and his crew may have the guts to challenge her. Roslin is completely right when she tells Adama she must be killed. If she doesn't die, EVERYONE may die. The Colonial Fleet wasn't perfect; Cain's promotion likely came through the same poor decisions that doomed them all. Adama has a chance to undo it and gain resources to ensure their survival. Remember, Adama would be Cain if Roslin didn't talk him out of fighting.

:The fact that you are incensed means that the writing is working. :) Take the show as a new story and temporarily place the good story that was "The Living Legend" aside for an hour. This Cain is no hero, but this Adama will step up to the plate as I thought his counterpart should have been in TOS. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:11, 8 January 2006 (EST)

What you are asking is difficult -- at best. Battlestar Galactica, was a space-war saga. TOS writing was too flawed for the show to survive (THE YOUNG LORDS). However, it still exists as a concept. And that concept was NOT ''The Young & the Resless meets Days of Our Lives and the Guiding Light'' in space! Blah! Sorry, I have a high level of quality expectation with Sci-fi. Take a look at Sci-Fi Channels re-imaging of DUNE -- it was fantastic. They are capable of high quality work, as FARSCAPE demonstrated, but this..... -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 20:04, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::Play nice Centuri. If you are expressing your honest concern, fine, but if this turns out to be another sock-puppet pseudonym of Languatron/Spider, abusive/unproductive posting can be banned. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:::"Who are you?" -- "What do you want?" And what are you talking about? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 18:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Ricimer, I'm going to have to start keeping a private list of your hostile remarks. Expect this to come up at your next RFA. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::A) No this is not a "hostile remark"; it is a warning that simple trolling is grounds for banning; as this has ''not'' happened, it proved to be unnecessary. Under '''no''' circumstances does saying "play nice, we do ban people who misbehave", without any actual berating, mean "hostility". You are being unfair in this Farago, as when I had that arguement with SgtPayne and you chastized me...only for me to find that the one who offended SgtPayne was ''you'' and not myself. I haven't actually done anything wrong, so please stop tring to get blood from a stone. '''B)''' In hindsight, it appears that Centuri probably ''wasn't'' aware of this, but on many messageboards I go to, this guy named Languatron (or Spider as he now calls himself) floods the messageboards with trollings about how much "Helena Cain" ruined the TOS character. I tried ot introduce BSG to the E Online's new forums, and he kind of destroyed them as they have no moderators there. I am sorry if I have mislabeled this person, but I must say, at first glance it looked like the ''exact same'' rhetoric as the one used by a troll who tried to bring down TNS sites. "I appologize for the inconvenience..."--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:43, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::::It doesn't matter whether the deletion was yours or mine, or whether Centuri is a sockpuppet for someone you know or not. You need to moderate your tone, react less hastily, and extend the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:57, 9 January 2006 (EST)
:::1 - who is Ricimer?
:::2 - what is he talking about?
:::-- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::1 - A regular and prolific contributor here.
::::2 - I have no idea. Maybe a fight he had on wikipedia. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:27, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:"There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude." Oh, how I wish that were true... As for her orders' illegality, I don't think it's really clear that anything she's done is explicitly illegal -- though that certainly doesn't make her actions acceptable. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:24, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::She ordered her crew to murder civilians. They were lined up against a wall and executed. There is no regulation that can give her the authority to do that. Killing defenceless civilians is prohibited by the articles of war. "All murders committed by any person in the fleet, shall be punished with death by the sentence of a court martial." It was an illegal order -- period! -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Besides the fact that I'm not aware of any specific Colonial laws regarding this, there were potentially Cylons among those civilians, so she could have easily justified it as "possible enemy combatants" (*cough*). It isn't murder unless the killing is explicity against the law, and I don't think that's been established. This is a rather trivial matter though; she's a dead woman walking anyway (as much as I love having her on the show). --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:54, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::I'm pretty sure having Adama killed is illegal. The fact that Adama is issuing the exact same order (at almost the exact same time) doesn't make it any more legal. Granted, she's dead either way. I'm just curious who's on the other end of that pistol. I'm guessing it's NOT Kara Thrace, and leaning more towards the Gina/Pegasus/Six. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:01, 9 January 2006 (EST)

===if you find the show unenjoyable===

As for you, Centuri, if you find the show unenjoyable, you certainly aren't required to watch it or contribute to the RDM articles here. There are [[TOS|other series]] in need of documentation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:My friend (I hope I may address you as such), you are right. Nobody says that I must watch the RDM (what does "RDM" mean?) series. As a general rule, I do not -- I was so major turned off by what we were given after so many years of waiting. But then, there was the news of the coming of the Pagasus -- I felt that this would be worth checking out. Surly, the introduction of the Pegasus would be a major turning point just as it was in the original series. I had my hopes up that they were going to turn things in a more energetic direction -- and I was sure wrong, it only got worse. Only curiousity about the conclusion has be going now. I will watch the conclusion, only because I want to find out who kills who. As I see it, there are 5 possibilities:

# Kara Thrace carries out the order,
# Kara Thrace fails in the attempt and some other sap succeeds (like Lono's failed attempt on the Emperor's life followed by Vir finishing the job {Babylon 5 season 4])
# Adam never gets the chance to give the order because Cain gives the "Execute Case Orange" order first and Fisk does as he's been ordered. This will mean that Adam will die (and Edward James Olmos decided to leave the show -- small loss) leaving Cain in charge. If this happens, she will probably follow through by destroying ''Colonial One.''
# The oportunity never comes for either order to be carried out. Like the original Peagasus, the upcoming battle results in the ship being MAJOR damaged and droping from the series (presumed destroyed with all hands).
# Fisk, knows that what he has been ordered to do is wrong, like so many other of Cain's orders. Fisk's conscience finnaly can't stand it, and he covertly informs Adama of the order, which would be followed by....

:We'll just have to wait and see. I'm just a long time fan of the original. A lot can and can not be said about it. When I saw the episode where Starbuck crashed on a planet where children were riding around on unicorns fighting the Cylons, I knew the show was dead. But it did have some good episodes. Comparison between the 2 is inevitable. Like the comparisons between the various cversions of the movie ''The Phantom of the Opera,'' or any other redone work. Sorry, but I did have my hopes up. Did you ever read the Malibu Comics BG series ''Journey's End''? It showed one version of what they could have done. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 22:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::"what does 'RDM' mean?" [[Ronald D. Moore]]. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-10T04:12:58Z

Centuri: /* if you find the show unenjoyable */ SPELLING

Moved to a page listing her surname first, hope no one minds.

I wonder why the ''Pegasus'' didn't follow Adama's order to rendezvous at Ragnar? Left the system before he sent it, or just Cain's megalomania? [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:50, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
: We may have that answer by this episode. It's a strong possibility that Cain may never have received the message since [[wireless]] has a range limit, and she may have jumped way out of range after the message was sent. Or, going to Ragnar was too hazardous for Pegasus, and Cain had to figure out where the fleet might have headed from Ragnar, in addition to perhaps avoiding her own pursuing Cylons. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:59, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

: Actually, I was thinking of doing entries by their first name. The reason that this was done in the first place was because we, at the time, didn't know how to alphabetize listings by their last name in categories... Unless you have a reason why we should continue with going by surname first, I would like to go to a format with first - middle - last name as the namespace. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:34, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Fine with me, although seems like it's going to take a helluva long time to re-do all the entries. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 19:54, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

===Actress===
http://www.lvrocks.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.cgi?forum=38&thread=2983#1

:''"And the big news was that Jane Seymour (Dr Quinn, East of Eden) from the original series, turned down the role of Admiral Cain. And Lynda Carter (Wonder Woman), Victoria Principal (DALLAS), Susan Lucci (All My Children) and Kate Mulgrew (Star Trek: Voyager) are all being consider for the hopeful female role.''

:''If the role cannot be filled by a woman they are looking at David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) or Don Johnson (Miami Vice) who was in that show with Olmos."''

Personally, I think Kate Mulgrew would be the best choice.

[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:30, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: Out of those choices, I do agree. Mulgrew is a good actress -- pity she was under-used in Voyager, IMHO. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== My new info ==

http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/suncal/cl-ca-lettersannex17jul17,0,7954431.story?coll=cl-suncal

Scroll down to the letter by "Tess Harper." [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 00:40, 18 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== "Spoiler Boxes" ==
The spoiler boxes have a serious flaw--you can't see the "this is a spoiler" line at the top when you're using the Monobook skin. It's too dark to read. I highlighted and ended up seeing the spoiler, and I didn't want to. Of course now I know what the box is and I won't highlight it anymore, but I would appreciate it if the box could be edited to be compatible with all the skins. Thanks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 00:16, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:I'm copying this to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy]], FYI. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:21, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

==Helena?==

SciFi.com is calling her Helena Cain. What do they say in the episode and captions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:''copied from [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters]]''
Okay. So, according to [http://scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/210/ this], Cain's name is Helena, not Nelena. The former seems like a much more, well, reasonable first name, but it could be a typo or whatever. Anyone know where we got Nelena from? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:43, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::IMDB says "Nelena". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:46, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::IMDB doesn't mena jack. Nelena was what all the spoilers called her, although Helena makes much more sense - the name means "Greek woman," which is obviously a connection with the background mythos of the series. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:06, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I know it doesn't mean jack, but SciFi.com isn't always right either. Maybe someone who has the episode on tape could re-watch the scene where she's introduced and chime in? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I taped the episode but they never say her name or see it printed: it's not in the end credits, and at the beginning it just says "Special Guest Star; Michelle Forbes". I checked and it is not in "Pegasus". We should find confirmation in "Resurrection Ship". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:54, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::Um, when has SciFi.com never been right? In fact, they had a lot of stuff before it was even shwon in the show - Tyrol's first name, the Celestra, and the ship specifications. All of those were backed up either by the show or ZOIC. And seeing as every name in the show has been a real name, and Nelena isn't, and Helena works with the Greek centrism of the show, there's no reason to think that it's wrong. And in any event, claiming that IMDb takes precedence over the official site is laughable. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:15, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::::Well, for one thing their older pages spell "Gemenon" as "Geminon", which was contradicted by "Colonial Day" - note that Helena/Nelena is also a one-letter spelling difference. But I don't really feel the need to carry on an argument about whether IMDB or SciFi are more reliable, when we can simply watch the episode over again at our next opportunity and see what the characters actually say. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:37, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
: Please remember to be, well, cautious about content from Sci-Fi and IMDb. They've had errors crop up on both pages before; for instance, Paul Tigh instead of Saul Tigh, and I believe they even indicated that the character [[Grimes]] (in "[[Colonial Day]]") was also an assassin at one point. As for IMDb, they're really hit or miss on things such as this. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:58, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::I can see where a typo could have occurred with the similarity between a capital "N" or "H." Still, it makes it harder when the character name is not used in speech in an episode to verify. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::Isn't she in the credits? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Why?==

I just got done watching Resurrection Ship, Part I -- that sound you heard (like a strem-locomotive being eaten alive) was me. Oh the pain the pain the pain! How could they (the writers) do this? Cain -- in the orginal -- was headstrong and made an "act of tactical misjudgement;" but he was mainly a leader who always inspired others. Even the Galactica personel were awed by him -- so much so that Apollo and Starbuck tried the absurd stunt of flying two "Vipers against Baseships." But this woman makes my skin crawl. Her insubordination to the President is reminicent of MacArthur's own insubordination with President Truman. But for her to openly order her people to murder Adama ''and his command staff'' and take the Galactica -- that is totally out in left field. There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude. The original Cain inspired those under him, but this one commands through fear. No officer like that could ever rise to the rank of Admiral. The orders she has given are illegal and she knows it. The orders she has given are illegal and the people under her know it. And this isn't the first illegal order she's given. She should have been relived when she murdered her XO. You don't obey illegal orders. What the hell is going on here? I have considered this NEW incarnation of the series to be charachter-rape of the worst kind -- and now its gotten wose than I thought possiple. They're going too darn far! Why are they doing this? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:06, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Welcome to the Wiki, Centuri. "I feel your pain." But, this is a different show so we cannot expect the same characterizations or else we'd lose the conflicts and contrasts we've enjoyed so far. This show is not a clone of the original, so a different mindset is required. This is a story of what humanity with its back to the wall. And despite that, the humans still find ways to screw themselves over. I think you did hit upon some similarities between the RDM Cain and her TOS counterpart. This Cain IS well respected by her crew--they have gone through life and death together in a way that ''Galactica's'' crew hadn't quite done in the same scale. Yet Cain is an extremist--her military training has made her forget the reason she and her crew exist--the preservation and protection of the Colonies and her people. She uses the letter of the law and ignores the spirit of the law. For example, if by taking some of her civilian fleet's supplies she would ensure the survival of all of the colonists in those ships as she escorted them out of harm's way, that would be understandable. But she left them to die just to fight--and for what? Roslin said it best; Cain is a threat to the Fleet because she believes that (1) fighting is all that there is to do, and by her rules, and (2) she ignores or forgets that the military serves the people and not the other way around. She will turn on the civilians for the "greater good" of defeating an undefeatable enemy. As far as Cain being relieved of duty, remember that she's built up a lot of morale on her ship through her fights--the crew respect her, if not likes her. They know she kicks ass. And they are also infected with the same fighting attitude that blinds them to what they should really be doing. And her crew also fears her for the same reason--no one but Adama and his crew may have the guts to challenge her. Roslin is completely right when she tells Adama she must be killed. If she doesn't die, EVERYONE may die. The Colonial Fleet wasn't perfect; Cain's promotion likely came through the same poor decisions that doomed them all. Adama has a chance to undo it and gain resources to ensure their survival. Remember, Adama would be Cain if Roslin didn't talk him out of fighting.

:The fact that you are incensed means that the writing is working. :) Take the show as a new story and temporarily place the good story that was "The Living Legend" aside for an hour. This Cain is no hero, but this Adama will step up to the plate as I thought his counterpart should have been in TOS. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:11, 8 January 2006 (EST)

What you are asking is difficult -- at best. Battlestar Galactica, was a space-war saga. TOS writing was too flawed for the show to survive (THE YOUNG LORDS). However, it still exists as a concept. And that concept was NOT ''The Young & the Resless meets Days of Our Lives and the Guiding Light'' in space! Blah! Sorry, I have a high level of quality expectation with Sci-fi. Take a look at Sci-Fi Channels re-imaging of DUNE -- it was fantastic. They are capable of high quality work, as FARSCAPE demonstrated, but this..... -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 20:04, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::Play nice Centuri. If you are expressing your honest concern, fine, but if this turns out to be another sock-puppet pseudonym of Languatron/Spider, abusive/unproductive posting can be banned. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:::"Who are you?" -- "What do you want?" And what are you talking about? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 18:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Ricimer, I'm going to have to start keeping a private list of your hostile remarks. Expect this to come up at your next RFA. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::A) No this is not a "hostile remark"; it is a warning that simple trolling is grounds for banning; as this has ''not'' happened, it proved to be unnecessary. Under '''no''' circumstances does saying "play nice, we do ban people who misbehave", without any actual berating, mean "hostility". You are being unfair in this Farago, as when I had that arguement with SgtPayne and you chastized me...only for me to find that the one who offended SgtPayne was ''you'' and not myself. I haven't actually done anything wrong, so please stop tring to get blood from a stone. '''B)''' In hindsight, it appears that Centuri probably ''wasn't'' aware of this, but on many messageboards I go to, this guy named Languatron (or Spider as he now calls himself) floods the messageboards with trollings about how much "Helena Cain" ruined the TOS character. I tried ot introduce BSG to the E Online's new forums, and he kind of destroyed them as they have no moderators there. I am sorry if I have mislabeled this person, but I must say, at first glance it looked like the ''exact same'' rhetoric as the one used by a troll who tried to bring down TNS sites. "I appologize for the inconvenience..."--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:43, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::::It doesn't matter whether the deletion was yours or mine, or whether Centuri is a sockpuppet for someone you know or not. You need to moderate your tone, react less hastily, and extend the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:57, 9 January 2006 (EST)
:::1 - who is Ricimer?
:::2 - what is he talking about?
:::-- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::1 - A regular and prolific contributor here.
::::2 - I have no idea. Maybe a fight he had on wikipedia. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:27, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:"There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude." Oh, how I wish that were true... As for her orders' illegality, I don't think it's really clear that anything she's done is explicitly illegal -- though that certainly doesn't make her actions acceptable. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:24, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::She ordered her crew to murder civilians. They were lined up against a wall and executed. There is no regulation that can give her the authority to do that. Killing defenceless civilians is prohibited by the articles of war. "All murders committed by any person in the fleet, shall be punished with death by the sentence of a court martial." It was an illegal order -- period! -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Besides the fact that I'm not aware of any specific Colonial laws regarding this, there were potentially Cylons among those civilians, so she could have easily justified it as "possible enemy combatants" (*cough*). It isn't murder unless the killing is explicity against the law, and I don't think that's been established. This is a rather trivial matter though; she's a dead woman walking anyway (as much as I love having her on the show). --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:54, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::I'm pretty sure having Adama killed is illegal. The fact that Adama is issuing the exact same order (at almost the exact same time) doesn't make it any more legal. Granted, she's dead either way. I'm just curious who's on the other end of that pistol. I'm guessing it's NOT Kara Thrace, and leaning more towards the Gina/Pegasus/Six. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:01, 9 January 2006 (EST)

===if you find the show unenjoyable===

As for you, Centuri, if you find the show unenjoyable, you certainly aren't required to watch it or contribute to the RDM articles here. There are [[TOS|other series]] in need of documentation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:My friend (I hope I may address you as such), you are right. Nobody says that I must watch the RDM (what does "RDM" mean?) series. As a general rule, I do not -- I was so major turned off by what we were given after so many years of waiting. But then, there was the news of the coming of the Pagasus -- I felt that this would be worth checking out. Surly, the introduction of the Pegasus would be a major turning point just as it was in the original series. I had my hopes up that they were going to turn things in a more energetic direction -- and I was sure wrong, it only got worse. Only curiousity about the conclusion has be going now. I will watch the conclusion, only because I want to find out who kills who. As I see it, there are 5 possibilities:

# Kara Thrace carries out the order,
# Kara Thrace fails in the attempt and some other sap succeeds (like Lono's failed attempt on the Emperor's life followed by Vir finishing the job {Babylon 5 season 4])
# Adam never gets the chance to give the order because Cain gives the "Execute Case Orange" order first and Fisk does as he's been ordered. This will mean that Adam will die (and Edward James Olmos decided to leave the sho -- small loss) leaving Cain in charge. If this happens, she will probably follow through by destroying ''Colonial One.''
# The oportunity never comes for either order to be carried out. Like the original Peagasus, the upcoming battle results in the ship being MAJOR damaged and droping from the series (presumed destroyed with all hands).
# Fisk, knows that what he has been ordered to do is wrong, like so many other of Cain's orders. Fisk's conscience finnaly can't stand it, and he covertly informs Adama of the order, which would be followed by....

:We'll just have to wait and see. I'm just a long time fan of the original. A lot can and can not be said about it. When I saw the episode where Starbuck crashed on a planet where children were riding around on unicorns fighting the Cylons, I knew the show was dead. But it did have some good episodes. Comparison between the 2 is inevitable. Like the comparisons between the various cversions of the movie ''The Phantom of the Opera,'' or any other redone work. Sorry, but I did have my hopes up. Did you ever read the Malibu Comics BG series ''Journey's End''? It showed one version of what they could have done. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 22:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-10T03:59:26Z

Centuri: /* if you find the show unenjoyable */ EDIT

Moved to a page listing her surname first, hope no one minds.

I wonder why the ''Pegasus'' didn't follow Adama's order to rendezvous at Ragnar? Left the system before he sent it, or just Cain's megalomania? [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:50, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
: We may have that answer by this episode. It's a strong possibility that Cain may never have received the message since [[wireless]] has a range limit, and she may have jumped way out of range after the message was sent. Or, going to Ragnar was too hazardous for Pegasus, and Cain had to figure out where the fleet might have headed from Ragnar, in addition to perhaps avoiding her own pursuing Cylons. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:59, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

: Actually, I was thinking of doing entries by their first name. The reason that this was done in the first place was because we, at the time, didn't know how to alphabetize listings by their last name in categories... Unless you have a reason why we should continue with going by surname first, I would like to go to a format with first - middle - last name as the namespace. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:34, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Fine with me, although seems like it's going to take a helluva long time to re-do all the entries. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 19:54, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

===Actress===
http://www.lvrocks.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.cgi?forum=38&thread=2983#1

:''"And the big news was that Jane Seymour (Dr Quinn, East of Eden) from the original series, turned down the role of Admiral Cain. And Lynda Carter (Wonder Woman), Victoria Principal (DALLAS), Susan Lucci (All My Children) and Kate Mulgrew (Star Trek: Voyager) are all being consider for the hopeful female role.''

:''If the role cannot be filled by a woman they are looking at David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) or Don Johnson (Miami Vice) who was in that show with Olmos."''

Personally, I think Kate Mulgrew would be the best choice.

[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:30, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: Out of those choices, I do agree. Mulgrew is a good actress -- pity she was under-used in Voyager, IMHO. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== My new info ==

http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/suncal/cl-ca-lettersannex17jul17,0,7954431.story?coll=cl-suncal

Scroll down to the letter by "Tess Harper." [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 00:40, 18 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== "Spoiler Boxes" ==
The spoiler boxes have a serious flaw--you can't see the "this is a spoiler" line at the top when you're using the Monobook skin. It's too dark to read. I highlighted and ended up seeing the spoiler, and I didn't want to. Of course now I know what the box is and I won't highlight it anymore, but I would appreciate it if the box could be edited to be compatible with all the skins. Thanks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 00:16, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:I'm copying this to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy]], FYI. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:21, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

==Helena?==

SciFi.com is calling her Helena Cain. What do they say in the episode and captions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:''copied from [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters]]''
Okay. So, according to [http://scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/210/ this], Cain's name is Helena, not Nelena. The former seems like a much more, well, reasonable first name, but it could be a typo or whatever. Anyone know where we got Nelena from? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:43, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::IMDB says "Nelena". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:46, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::IMDB doesn't mena jack. Nelena was what all the spoilers called her, although Helena makes much more sense - the name means "Greek woman," which is obviously a connection with the background mythos of the series. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:06, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I know it doesn't mean jack, but SciFi.com isn't always right either. Maybe someone who has the episode on tape could re-watch the scene where she's introduced and chime in? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I taped the episode but they never say her name or see it printed: it's not in the end credits, and at the beginning it just says "Special Guest Star; Michelle Forbes". I checked and it is not in "Pegasus". We should find confirmation in "Resurrection Ship". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:54, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::Um, when has SciFi.com never been right? In fact, they had a lot of stuff before it was even shwon in the show - Tyrol's first name, the Celestra, and the ship specifications. All of those were backed up either by the show or ZOIC. And seeing as every name in the show has been a real name, and Nelena isn't, and Helena works with the Greek centrism of the show, there's no reason to think that it's wrong. And in any event, claiming that IMDb takes precedence over the official site is laughable. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:15, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::::Well, for one thing their older pages spell "Gemenon" as "Geminon", which was contradicted by "Colonial Day" - note that Helena/Nelena is also a one-letter spelling difference. But I don't really feel the need to carry on an argument about whether IMDB or SciFi are more reliable, when we can simply watch the episode over again at our next opportunity and see what the characters actually say. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:37, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
: Please remember to be, well, cautious about content from Sci-Fi and IMDb. They've had errors crop up on both pages before; for instance, Paul Tigh instead of Saul Tigh, and I believe they even indicated that the character [[Grimes]] (in "[[Colonial Day]]") was also an assassin at one point. As for IMDb, they're really hit or miss on things such as this. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:58, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::I can see where a typo could have occurred with the similarity between a capital "N" or "H." Still, it makes it harder when the character name is not used in speech in an episode to verify. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::Isn't she in the credits? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Why?==

I just got done watching Resurrection Ship, Part I -- that sound you heard (like a strem-locomotive being eaten alive) was me. Oh the pain the pain the pain! How could they (the writers) do this? Cain -- in the orginal -- was headstrong and made an "act of tactical misjudgement;" but he was mainly a leader who always inspired others. Even the Galactica personel were awed by him -- so much so that Apollo and Starbuck tried the absurd stunt of flying two "Vipers against Baseships." But this woman makes my skin crawl. Her insubordination to the President is reminicent of MacArthur's own insubordination with President Truman. But for her to openly order her people to murder Adama ''and his command staff'' and take the Galactica -- that is totally out in left field. There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude. The original Cain inspired those under him, but this one commands through fear. No officer like that could ever rise to the rank of Admiral. The orders she has given are illegal and she knows it. The orders she has given are illegal and the people under her know it. And this isn't the first illegal order she's given. She should have been relived when she murdered her XO. You don't obey illegal orders. What the hell is going on here? I have considered this NEW incarnation of the series to be charachter-rape of the worst kind -- and now its gotten wose than I thought possiple. They're going too darn far! Why are they doing this? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:06, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Welcome to the Wiki, Centuri. "I feel your pain." But, this is a different show so we cannot expect the same characterizations or else we'd lose the conflicts and contrasts we've enjoyed so far. This show is not a clone of the original, so a different mindset is required. This is a story of what humanity with its back to the wall. And despite that, the humans still find ways to screw themselves over. I think you did hit upon some similarities between the RDM Cain and her TOS counterpart. This Cain IS well respected by her crew--they have gone through life and death together in a way that ''Galactica's'' crew hadn't quite done in the same scale. Yet Cain is an extremist--her military training has made her forget the reason she and her crew exist--the preservation and protection of the Colonies and her people. She uses the letter of the law and ignores the spirit of the law. For example, if by taking some of her civilian fleet's supplies she would ensure the survival of all of the colonists in those ships as she escorted them out of harm's way, that would be understandable. But she left them to die just to fight--and for what? Roslin said it best; Cain is a threat to the Fleet because she believes that (1) fighting is all that there is to do, and by her rules, and (2) she ignores or forgets that the military serves the people and not the other way around. She will turn on the civilians for the "greater good" of defeating an undefeatable enemy. As far as Cain being relieved of duty, remember that she's built up a lot of morale on her ship through her fights--the crew respect her, if not likes her. They know she kicks ass. And they are also infected with the same fighting attitude that blinds them to what they should really be doing. And her crew also fears her for the same reason--no one but Adama and his crew may have the guts to challenge her. Roslin is completely right when she tells Adama she must be killed. If she doesn't die, EVERYONE may die. The Colonial Fleet wasn't perfect; Cain's promotion likely came through the same poor decisions that doomed them all. Adama has a chance to undo it and gain resources to ensure their survival. Remember, Adama would be Cain if Roslin didn't talk him out of fighting.

:The fact that you are incensed means that the writing is working. :) Take the show as a new story and temporarily place the good story that was "The Living Legend" aside for an hour. This Cain is no hero, but this Adama will step up to the plate as I thought his counterpart should have been in TOS. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:11, 8 January 2006 (EST)

What you are asking is difficult -- at best. Battlestar Galactica, was a space-war saga. TOS writing was too flawed for the show to survive (THE YOUNG LORDS). However, it still exists as a concept. And that concept was NOT ''The Young & the Resless meets Days of Our Lives and the Guiding Light'' in space! Blah! Sorry, I have a high level of quality expectation with Sci-fi. Take a look at Sci-Fi Channels re-imaging of DUNE -- it was fantastic. They are capable of high quality work, as FARSCAPE demonstrated, but this..... -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 20:04, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::Play nice Centuri. If you are expressing your honest concern, fine, but if this turns out to be another sock-puppet pseudonym of Languatron/Spider, abusive/unproductive posting can be banned. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:::"Who are you?" -- "What do you want?" And what are you talking about? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 18:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Ricimer, I'm going to have to start keeping a private list of your hostile remarks. Expect this to come up at your next RFA. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::1 - who is Ricimer?
:::2 - what is he talking about?
:::-- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::1 - A regular and prolific contributor here.
::::2 - I have no idea. Maybe a fight he had on wikipedia. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:27, 9 January 2006 (EST)
:A) No this is not a "hostile remark"; it is a warning that simple trolling is grounds for banning; as this has ''not'' happened, it proved to be unnecessary. Under '''no''' circumstances does saying "play nice, we do ban people who misbehave", without any actual berating, mean "hostility". You are being unfair in this Farago, as when I had that arguement with SgtPayne and you chastized me...only for me to find that the one who offended SgtPayne was ''you'' and not myself. I haven't actually done anything wrong, so please stop tring to get blood from a stone. '''B)''' In hindsight, it appears that Centuri probably ''wasn't'' aware of this, but on many messageboards I go to, this guy named Languatron (or Spider as he now calls himself) floods the messageboards with trollings about how much "Helena Cain" ruined the TOS character. I tried ot introduce BSG to the E Online's new forums, and he kind of destroyed them as they have no moderators there. I am sorry if I have mislabeled this person, but I must say, at first glance it looked like the ''exact same'' rhetoric as the one used by a troll who tried to bring down TNS sites. "I appologize for the inconvenience..."--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:43, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::It doesn't matter whether the deletion was yours or mine, or whether Centuri is a sockpuppet for someone you know or not. You need to moderate your tone, react less hastily, and extend the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:57, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:"There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude." Oh, how I wish that were true... As for her orders' illegality, I don't think it's really clear that anything she's done is explicitly illegal -- though that certainly doesn't make her actions acceptable. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:24, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::She ordered her crew to murder civilians. They were lined up against a wall and executed. There is no regulation that can give her the authority to do that. Killing defenceless civilians is prohibited by the articles of war. "All murders committed by any person in the fleet, shall be punished with death by the sentence of a court martial." It was an illegal order -- period! -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Besides the fact that I'm not aware of any specific Colonial laws regarding this, there were potentially Cylons among those civilians, so she could have easily justified it as "possible enemy combatants" (*cough*). It isn't murder unless the killing is explicity against the law, and I don't think that's been established. This is a rather trivial matter though; she's a dead woman walking anyway (as much as I love having her on the show). --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:54, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::I'm pretty sure having Adama killed is illegal. The fact that Adama is issuing the exact same order (at almost the exact same time) doesn't make it any more legal. Granted, she's dead either way. I'm just curious who's on the other end of that pistol. I'm guessing it's NOT Kara Thrace, and leaning more towards the Gina/Pegasus/Six. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:01, 9 January 2006 (EST)

===if you find the show unenjoyable===

As for you, Centuri, if you find the show unenjoyable, you certainly aren't required to watch it or contribute to the RDM articles here. There are [[TOS|other series]] in need of documentation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:My friend (I hope I may address you as such), you are right. Nobody says that I must watch the RDM (what does "RDM" mean?) series. As a general rule, I do not -- I was so major turned off by what we were given after so many years of waiting. But then, there was the news of the coming of the Pagasus -- I felt that this would be worth checking out. Surly, the introduction of the Pegasus would be a major turning point just as it was in the original series. I had my hopes up that they were going to turn things in a more energetic direction -- and I was sure wrong, it only got worse. Only curiousity about the conclusion has be going now. I will watch the conclusion, only because I want to find out who kills who. As I see it, there are 5 possibilities:

# Kara Thrace carries out the order,
# Kara Thrace fails in the attempt and some other sap succeeds (like Lono's failed attempt on the Emperor's life followed by Vir finishing the job {Babylon 5 season 4])
# Adam never gets the chance to give the order because Cain gives the "Execute Case Orange" order first and Fisk does as he's been ordered. This will mean that Adam will die (and Edward James Olmos decided to leave the sho -- small loss) leaving Cain in charge. If this happens, she will probably follow through by destroying ''Colonial One.''
# The oportunity never comes for either order to be carried out. Like the original Peagasus, the upcoming battle results in the ship being MAJOR damaged and droping from the series (presumed destroyed with all hands).
# Fisk, knows that what he has been ordered to do is wrong, like so many other of Cain's orders. Fisk's conscience finnaly can't stand it, and he covertly informs Adama of the order, which would be followed by....

:We'll juist have to wait and see. I'm just a long time fan of the original. A lot can and can not be said about it. When I saw the episode where Starbuck crashed on a planet where children were riding around on unicorns fighting the Cylons, I knew the show was dead. But it did have some good episodes. Comparison between the 2 is inevitable. Like the comparisons between the various cversions of the movie ''The Phantom of the Opera,'' or any other redone work. Sorry, but I did have my hopes up. Did you ever read the Malibu Comics BG series ''Journey's End''? It showed one version of what they could have done. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 22:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-10T03:56:08Z

Centuri: /* Why? */ reply

Moved to a page listing her surname first, hope no one minds.

I wonder why the ''Pegasus'' didn't follow Adama's order to rendezvous at Ragnar? Left the system before he sent it, or just Cain's megalomania? [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:50, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
: We may have that answer by this episode. It's a strong possibility that Cain may never have received the message since [[wireless]] has a range limit, and she may have jumped way out of range after the message was sent. Or, going to Ragnar was too hazardous for Pegasus, and Cain had to figure out where the fleet might have headed from Ragnar, in addition to perhaps avoiding her own pursuing Cylons. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:59, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

: Actually, I was thinking of doing entries by their first name. The reason that this was done in the first place was because we, at the time, didn't know how to alphabetize listings by their last name in categories... Unless you have a reason why we should continue with going by surname first, I would like to go to a format with first - middle - last name as the namespace. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:34, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Fine with me, although seems like it's going to take a helluva long time to re-do all the entries. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 19:54, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

===Actress===
http://www.lvrocks.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.cgi?forum=38&thread=2983#1

:''"And the big news was that Jane Seymour (Dr Quinn, East of Eden) from the original series, turned down the role of Admiral Cain. And Lynda Carter (Wonder Woman), Victoria Principal (DALLAS), Susan Lucci (All My Children) and Kate Mulgrew (Star Trek: Voyager) are all being consider for the hopeful female role.''

:''If the role cannot be filled by a woman they are looking at David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) or Don Johnson (Miami Vice) who was in that show with Olmos."''

Personally, I think Kate Mulgrew would be the best choice.

[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:30, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: Out of those choices, I do agree. Mulgrew is a good actress -- pity she was under-used in Voyager, IMHO. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== My new info ==

http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/suncal/cl-ca-lettersannex17jul17,0,7954431.story?coll=cl-suncal

Scroll down to the letter by "Tess Harper." [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 00:40, 18 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== "Spoiler Boxes" ==
The spoiler boxes have a serious flaw--you can't see the "this is a spoiler" line at the top when you're using the Monobook skin. It's too dark to read. I highlighted and ended up seeing the spoiler, and I didn't want to. Of course now I know what the box is and I won't highlight it anymore, but I would appreciate it if the box could be edited to be compatible with all the skins. Thanks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 00:16, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:I'm copying this to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy]], FYI. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:21, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

==Helena?==

SciFi.com is calling her Helena Cain. What do they say in the episode and captions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:''copied from [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters]]''
Okay. So, according to [http://scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/210/ this], Cain's name is Helena, not Nelena. The former seems like a much more, well, reasonable first name, but it could be a typo or whatever. Anyone know where we got Nelena from? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:43, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::IMDB says "Nelena". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:46, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::IMDB doesn't mena jack. Nelena was what all the spoilers called her, although Helena makes much more sense - the name means "Greek woman," which is obviously a connection with the background mythos of the series. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:06, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I know it doesn't mean jack, but SciFi.com isn't always right either. Maybe someone who has the episode on tape could re-watch the scene where she's introduced and chime in? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I taped the episode but they never say her name or see it printed: it's not in the end credits, and at the beginning it just says "Special Guest Star; Michelle Forbes". I checked and it is not in "Pegasus". We should find confirmation in "Resurrection Ship". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:54, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::Um, when has SciFi.com never been right? In fact, they had a lot of stuff before it was even shwon in the show - Tyrol's first name, the Celestra, and the ship specifications. All of those were backed up either by the show or ZOIC. And seeing as every name in the show has been a real name, and Nelena isn't, and Helena works with the Greek centrism of the show, there's no reason to think that it's wrong. And in any event, claiming that IMDb takes precedence over the official site is laughable. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:15, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::::Well, for one thing their older pages spell "Gemenon" as "Geminon", which was contradicted by "Colonial Day" - note that Helena/Nelena is also a one-letter spelling difference. But I don't really feel the need to carry on an argument about whether IMDB or SciFi are more reliable, when we can simply watch the episode over again at our next opportunity and see what the characters actually say. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:37, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
: Please remember to be, well, cautious about content from Sci-Fi and IMDb. They've had errors crop up on both pages before; for instance, Paul Tigh instead of Saul Tigh, and I believe they even indicated that the character [[Grimes]] (in "[[Colonial Day]]") was also an assassin at one point. As for IMDb, they're really hit or miss on things such as this. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:58, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::I can see where a typo could have occurred with the similarity between a capital "N" or "H." Still, it makes it harder when the character name is not used in speech in an episode to verify. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::Isn't she in the credits? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Why?==

I just got done watching Resurrection Ship, Part I -- that sound you heard (like a strem-locomotive being eaten alive) was me. Oh the pain the pain the pain! How could they (the writers) do this? Cain -- in the orginal -- was headstrong and made an "act of tactical misjudgement;" but he was mainly a leader who always inspired others. Even the Galactica personel were awed by him -- so much so that Apollo and Starbuck tried the absurd stunt of flying two "Vipers against Baseships." But this woman makes my skin crawl. Her insubordination to the President is reminicent of MacArthur's own insubordination with President Truman. But for her to openly order her people to murder Adama ''and his command staff'' and take the Galactica -- that is totally out in left field. There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude. The original Cain inspired those under him, but this one commands through fear. No officer like that could ever rise to the rank of Admiral. The orders she has given are illegal and she knows it. The orders she has given are illegal and the people under her know it. And this isn't the first illegal order she's given. She should have been relived when she murdered her XO. You don't obey illegal orders. What the hell is going on here? I have considered this NEW incarnation of the series to be charachter-rape of the worst kind -- and now its gotten wose than I thought possiple. They're going too darn far! Why are they doing this? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:06, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Welcome to the Wiki, Centuri. "I feel your pain." But, this is a different show so we cannot expect the same characterizations or else we'd lose the conflicts and contrasts we've enjoyed so far. This show is not a clone of the original, so a different mindset is required. This is a story of what humanity with its back to the wall. And despite that, the humans still find ways to screw themselves over. I think you did hit upon some similarities between the RDM Cain and her TOS counterpart. This Cain IS well respected by her crew--they have gone through life and death together in a way that ''Galactica's'' crew hadn't quite done in the same scale. Yet Cain is an extremist--her military training has made her forget the reason she and her crew exist--the preservation and protection of the Colonies and her people. She uses the letter of the law and ignores the spirit of the law. For example, if by taking some of her civilian fleet's supplies she would ensure the survival of all of the colonists in those ships as she escorted them out of harm's way, that would be understandable. But she left them to die just to fight--and for what? Roslin said it best; Cain is a threat to the Fleet because she believes that (1) fighting is all that there is to do, and by her rules, and (2) she ignores or forgets that the military serves the people and not the other way around. She will turn on the civilians for the "greater good" of defeating an undefeatable enemy. As far as Cain being relieved of duty, remember that she's built up a lot of morale on her ship through her fights--the crew respect her, if not likes her. They know she kicks ass. And they are also infected with the same fighting attitude that blinds them to what they should really be doing. And her crew also fears her for the same reason--no one but Adama and his crew may have the guts to challenge her. Roslin is completely right when she tells Adama she must be killed. If she doesn't die, EVERYONE may die. The Colonial Fleet wasn't perfect; Cain's promotion likely came through the same poor decisions that doomed them all. Adama has a chance to undo it and gain resources to ensure their survival. Remember, Adama would be Cain if Roslin didn't talk him out of fighting.

:The fact that you are incensed means that the writing is working. :) Take the show as a new story and temporarily place the good story that was "The Living Legend" aside for an hour. This Cain is no hero, but this Adama will step up to the plate as I thought his counterpart should have been in TOS. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:11, 8 January 2006 (EST)

What you are asking is difficult -- at best. Battlestar Galactica, was a space-war saga. TOS writing was too flawed for the show to survive (THE YOUNG LORDS). However, it still exists as a concept. And that concept was NOT ''The Young & the Resless meets Days of Our Lives and the Guiding Light'' in space! Blah! Sorry, I have a high level of quality expectation with Sci-fi. Take a look at Sci-Fi Channels re-imaging of DUNE -- it was fantastic. They are capable of high quality work, as FARSCAPE demonstrated, but this..... -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 20:04, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::Play nice Centuri. If you are expressing your honest concern, fine, but if this turns out to be another sock-puppet pseudonym of Languatron/Spider, abusive/unproductive posting can be banned. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:::"Who are you?" -- "What do you want?" And what are you talking about? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 18:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Ricimer, I'm going to have to start keeping a private list of your hostile remarks. Expect this to come up at your next RFA. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::1 - who is Ricimer?
:::2 - what is he talking about?
:::-- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::1 - A regular and prolific contributor here.
::::2 - I have no idea. Maybe a fight he had on wikipedia. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:27, 9 January 2006 (EST)
:A) No this is not a "hostile remark"; it is a warning that simple trolling is grounds for banning; as this has ''not'' happened, it proved to be unnecessary. Under '''no''' circumstances does saying "play nice, we do ban people who misbehave", without any actual berating, mean "hostility". You are being unfair in this Farago, as when I had that arguement with SgtPayne and you chastized me...only for me to find that the one who offended SgtPayne was ''you'' and not myself. I haven't actually done anything wrong, so please stop tring to get blood from a stone. '''B)''' In hindsight, it appears that Centuri probably ''wasn't'' aware of this, but on many messageboards I go to, this guy named Languatron (or Spider as he now calls himself) floods the messageboards with trollings about how much "Helena Cain" ruined the TOS character. I tried ot introduce BSG to the E Online's new forums, and he kind of destroyed them as they have no moderators there. I am sorry if I have mislabeled this person, but I must say, at first glance it looked like the ''exact same'' rhetoric as the one used by a troll who tried to bring down TNS sites. "I appologize for the inconvenience..."--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:43, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:"There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude." Oh, how I wish that were true... As for her orders' illegality, I don't think it's really clear that anything she's done is explicitly illegal -- though that certainly doesn't make her actions acceptable. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:24, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::She ordered her crew to murder civilians. They were lined up against a wall and executed. There is no regulation that can give her the authority to do that. Killing defenceless civilians is prohibited by the articles of war. "All murders committed by any person in the fleet, shall be punished with death by the sentence of a court martial." It was an illegal order -- period! -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Besides the fact that I'm not aware of any specific Colonial laws regarding this, there were potentially Cylons among those civilians, so she could have easily justified it as "possible enemy combatants" (*cough*). It isn't murder unless the killing is explicity against the law, and I don't think that's been established. This is a rather trivial matter though; she's a dead woman walking anyway (as much as I love having her on the show). --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:54, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::I'm pretty sure having Adama killed is illegal. The fact that Adama is issuing the exact same order (at almost the exact same time) doesn't make it any more legal. Granted, she's dead either way. I'm just curious who's on the other end of that pistol. I'm guessing it's NOT Kara Thrace, and leaning more towards the Gina/Pegasus/Six. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:01, 9 January 2006 (EST)

===if you find the show unenjoyable===

:As for you, Centuri, if you find the show unenjoyable, you certainly aren't required to watch it or contribute to the RDM articles here. There are [[TOS|other series]] in need of documentation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::My friend (I hope I may address you as such), you are right. Nobody says that I must watch the RDM (what does "RDM" mean?) series. As a general rule, I do not -- I was so major turned off by what we were given after so many years of waiting. But then, there was the news of the coming of the Pagasus -- I felt that this would be worth checking out. Surly, the introduction of the Pegasus would be a major turning point just as it was in the original series. I had my hopes up that they were going to turn things in a more energetic direction -- and I was sure wrong, it only got worse. Only curiousity about the conclusion has be going now. I will watch the conclusion, only because I want to find out who kills who. As I see it, there are 5 possibilities:

# Kara Thrace carries out the order,
# Kara Thrace fails in the attempt and some other sap succeeds (like Lono's failed attempt on the Emperor's life followed by Vir finishing the job {Babylon 5 season 4])
# Adam never gets the chance to give the order because Cain gives the "Execute Case Orange" order first and Fisk does as he's been ordered. This will mean that Adam will die (and Edward James Olmos decided to leave the sho -- small loss) leaving Cain in charge. If this happens, she will probably follow through by destroying ''Colonial One.''
# The oportunity never comes for either order to be carried out. Like the original Peagasus, the upcoming battle results in the ship being MAJOR damaged and droping from the series (presumed destroyed with all hands).
# Fisk, knows that what he has been ordered to do is wrong, like so many other of Cain's orders. Fisk's conscience finnaly can't stand it, and he covertly informs Adama of the order, which would be followed by....

We'll juist have to wait and see. I'm just a long time fan of the original. A lot can and can not be said about it. When I saw the episode where Starbuck crashed on a planet where children were riding around on unicorns fighting the Cylons, I knew the show was dead. But it did have some good episodes. Comparison between the 2 is inevitable. Like the comparisons between the various cversions of the movie ''The Phantom of the Opera,'' or any other redone work. Sorry, but I did have my hopes up. Did you ever read the Malibu Comics BG series ''Journey's End''? It showed one version of what they could have done. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 22:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

User talk:The Merovingian

2006-01-10T02:58:19Z

Centuri: /* "Six Months" Business */ troll

== Regarding "Spoilers" ==

Welcome to the Wiki! Just wanted to drop a note by and state that this site doesn't censor spoilers. Therefore, I've reverted your changes. See the [[Battlestar Wiki:Spoiler Policy|Spoiler Policy]]. Thanks! -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 11:06, 17 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Well yes, but I think we should just keep stuff that's current, or chronological i.e. put the first entry under "Pegasus" saying that Tyrol served there, THEN mentioned the rest...I don't know. P.S. What's with that IP address that keeps sending junk links on this wiki? Is it a person or a bot?

: I think its a bot of some type. I'll probably end up blocking the IP ranges. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:52, 17 Aug 2005 (EDT)

==Cylon Wars==

Just wanted to compliment you for your recent adjustments to the Cylon War articles. Nice job. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:43, 18 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Ditto. I like the Battle pages you've created. It has a great functionality to show in a nutshell any changes in equipment and manpower. If that isn't already there, can we have a count of lost Colonial ships, pilots, or other humans? [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:09, 18 Aug 2005 (EDT)

:As I understand it, there is a "list of pilots" page, and I believe that it and the article for ''Galactica'' cover Viper numbers (though Raptor numbers are anyone's guesss so far; the official site+on screen dialog has only said the number of Vipers). I also appreciate it that RDM, unlike the morons on Star Trek: Voyager (HOW MANY shuttles did they lose?) will devote an ENTIRE EPISODE's "A" plot ("Flight of the Phoenix") to saying that the Galactica has reached the point where they have to start building more Vipers ''from scratch''. --->Actually, all I did was copy/paste the wiki battlebox from Wikipedia's Battle of Pelennor Fields page....of course, I WROTE most of the entry for Pelennor Fields including the battlebox, as well as the box for Helm's Deep, Black Gate, Bywater, Dale, etc. If you check "history" on Wikipedia I (Ricimer) actually have written ''most'' of the LOTR material, and I regulary update the Battlestar Galactica pages. Weird thing is, on Wikipedia if you type in "Cylon" you get this 6th century B.C. Athenian statesman named "Cylon" with a link to "the fictional robots". I think maybe 5 people would be looking for the ancient Athenian: anyone known how to bump Galactica's Cylons ahead of them? Anyway, the hard part was actually figuring out how to get a color that was visible on a black backround; it was originally ''pink'' and looked horrible (I don't know how to change colors) and had to toy around a dozen or so times before I got a nice bluish color. ---Ricimer 8:00, 18 Aug, 2005 EDT

==12 Colonies==

Thanks on the Colony stuff, I'm still new at this.

==Nuggets==

You said:

:According to the SciFi.com official website, after the events of "The Hand of God", there are 5 surviving nuggets.

Can you tell me where to find this? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:45, 27 August 2005 (EDT)

:Go to Scifi.com's Battlestar Galactica page. Click on "Ships Gallery" go to the Viper page. Click on "CAG roster". It gives a list of ships. During the first season it was updated every episode that Vipers were lost or damaged, up until episode #10 "The Hand of God" (I actually don't think any Vipers were lost since then). Anyway, it says that there are "5 trainee pilots" right there. So I went to the "nugget" page and updated it to say that there are 5 now (Hot Dog, Kat, and three others apparently). ---Ricimer, 27 Aug, 2005 4:00 pm EDT

==Your fight with [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]]==

Gentlemen: rather than reverting each other's edits on [[Cylons]] and submitting ban requests, please attempt a civilized discussion on the article's [[Talk:Cylons|talk page]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:03, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

Agreed. I will revert the Cylon page to whatever it was in the last edit before this started, then continue on the discussion page. ---Ricimer, 1 Sept, 2005

==Redirects==

Use <nowiki>#REDIRECT [[Gideon]]</nowiki>, for example. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:08, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

== Humano-Cylons ==

I was looking into your reason for removing my "Starbuck's a Cylon" bit and wanted to point out that the line that Boomer says concerning Starbuck having a child does not say that she would breed with a Cylon. Boomer states, "No, if you agreed to bear children, it’d be voluntary, maybe even set you up with someone you like." Now, if Starbuck were to be set up with a Cylon to create a hybrid and the "twelve models" bit meant twelve different Humano-Cylon models, that would be extremely limiting (after all, we've already seen the chemistry between her and Leoben. Heh.). If the Cylons were trying to set her up with Simon, for example, it seems odd how he kept pushing her buttons (the child abuse thing, the "do you see any Vipers around here" bit, etc.). If one wanted to look at Boomer's comment as a general one relating to humans, then it still seems like Starbuck would not really work in that situation, either. I think that Boomer's comment could mean that the Cylons would set her up with Anders or Lee Adama, both of whom she has feelings for (note that Boomer says "someone you like," not "someone you would like."). While a case could be made that Anders is a Cylon, his presige and career in professional Pyramid makes it likely that he would have been in the public eye for more than two years prior to the Cylon holocaust, which, as I stated, seems to be the point of origin of Cylon infiltration. However, the information on Anders is quite weak and would make such a case on either side very difficult. D'anna Biers may have been in the public eye as a reporter, though the case has been made by others that she was probably a low profile reporter prior to the attack, and therefore would not have had the exposure that Anders enjoyed. Also, if one were to make the case that Baltar was a Cylon and that he could be used, the brainscan performed on him in Home, Part II, seems like it would have shown silica pathways in his brain, as that appears to still be part of Cylon technology (according to the mini-series), so it seems unlikely that he's a Cylon, too. Well, that turned into quite the long and roundabout case. Anyhow, as Boomer, nor anyone else in the episode, seems to have stated directly that Starbuck would be made to breed with a Cylon, there is enough wiggle-room to justify that this may not have been the case. -- [[User:Linaf|Linaf]]

== Final Cut ==

Thanks for the clean-up on my addendum... was kinda klunky....
[[User:Lone Odessan|Lone Odessan]] 18:17, 11 September 2005 (EDT)

== The Great Cylon Turkey Shoot ==

You, sir, are a genius with the new battle page title. I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read your title change. The content of this page should be equally amusing. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:46, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

*No sir, I was actually quite serious. RDM was in the NROTC, and he says he has stacks of Word War II naval history books which much of the new "realistic" Battlestar Galactica is based on. My new title is a referrence to an infamous World War II battle: The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot, properly referred to as the Battle of the Philippine Sea. It was the battle that struck a death knell to the Japanese Imperial Navy: the Japanese Naval Carrier threat was elminated in this battle and they never challenged US air dominance again. While suffering relatively light losses, for every one American plane shot down, *''four''* Japanese plains were shot down, and their carriers were annihilated. The battle was incredbily lopsided. Because of this lopsidedness, I felt it appropriate to use it here, because BSG is based on a lot of WWII carrier stuff. I'll leave a note there saying it's a name we made up. By the way, we need to link these battles into the episode articles so people know to look at them (casual fans coming onto the site). Problem I have though, is that we don't know if there were Turkeys on the 12 Colonies! (see Life Forms section of "Twelve Colonies"). ---Ricimer, 17 Sept, 2005
: Still a genius move in both humor as well as military history research. I'm faintly familiar with that WWII battle: I think your name is quite appropriate. At least we know the Colonies have blackbirds. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 02:00, 17 September 2005 (EDT)

==Don't Bite the Newbies==

While [[User:Destinymaker]] familiarizes himself with [[Battlestar Wiki:Welcome, newcomers]], please give [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers|Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers]] a read. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:15, 18 September 2005 (EDT)

I appoligie, though I am a strong believer in the survival of the fittest. --Ricimer, 18 Sept, 2005

:Hey, Ricimer. You may also want to cut Sprocketeer a little slack, although in principle I agreed with some of what you said. See my edits on the Phoenix page as well. I struck your last edits only because they were too argumentative (as in fistfight) to reedit and add in the time I had. Please add them again as appropriate to the existing page information, which also has my last edits, too. (we were on the page at the same time). [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:12, 19 September 2005 (EDT)

::No, they were actually quite civil. I made a point by point rebuttal. I'll go back and see if I can iron them out a little though. Still, he should realize that that should have been put in talk. ---Ricimer, 19 Sept, 2005

==Definite Articles==
There's a [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions|place]] to throw your two cents in. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:49, 19 September 2005 (EDT)

==Kudos==
Ricimer, I just wanted to say that although I know we don't always see eye to eye on everything, I think the work you've done on the battle pages is fantastic, and I've greatly appreciated your contributions here. Thank you, and keep it up. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:40, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

==Moving Pages==
Each page should have a "move" tab right after history. If you use this instead of pasting the content into a new article, it will preserve the edit history. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:12, 30 September 2005 (EDT)

==Jzanjani==
Ricimer, please. He's ''allowed'' to do whatever he wants with his talk page. At the very worst blanking it is in bad taste. See [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Talk page|Wikipedia:Talk page]], specifically the section "Can I do whatever I want to my own user talk page?" --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:24, 6 October 2005 (EDT)

:Dear friend Ricimer,

:Since I have joined the community of Wikipedians here on battlestarwiki, it has been my misfortune to have alienated so prolific and knowledgeable a contributor as yourself. Spencerian, Farago, and Watcher have all played third parties to our heated disputes, which have occasionally - it shames me to admit it - come close to blows. Our disputes have rendered vulgar the level of discourse on this website and have proven a distraction to the practical minds which everyday toil to clarify the mysteries of Battlestar Galactica. Because we have been unable to resolve our differences, our bickering has consumed a significant portion of the efforts of our peers, and thus may delay key contributions in the future.

:Therefore, this situation can not continue. Whatever form our differences take, it is unacceptable that we continue to divert the efforts of our eloquent colleagues. Let us put the past behind us, and let us go forward hand-in-hand as we unravel the complexities of this, the greatest television series in the history of the Twelve Colonies. Ricimer, please accept my most sincere, genuine, and heartfelt [http://webspace.utexas.edu/joz59/funny_pics/fuck_soccer.jpg apology.]

::Respectfully,

:::''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]]''

::::You come here under the banner of peace, and yet you post me an "apology" link at the end connecting to a pic of a kid giving me The Finger? For this the only Verdict is Vengeance.
::::: Further posting into this is not worth my or anyone else's time. I am going to resume my normal 'rounds about the wiki without futher commentary or complaint regarding this. But you have just made an enemy for life. ---Ricimer, October 7, 2005
::::::I, for one, appreciate you standing down from this, Ricimer. The Wiki would diminish without your contributions, though I'm not taking sides. Just remember Peter's words and don't bite the newbies too hard, OK? :) I've already put my 2 cents on Jzanjani's page on '''his''' behavior, and we'll let that alone unless Joe has any further wisdom to part to either of you. I'm glad you, like many of us here, are now officially [http://www.branchbrothers.net/asshole.htm a recovering member] :) . Take my advice on not flaming, leave the vengeance thing to the writers of other fiction (life's too short to be angry) and keep up the good contribs. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:31, 7 October 2005 (EDT)
::::I think the above link is a tad off-color, otherwise fine---Ricimer

== Regarding Jzanjani ==

Ricimer,

If you haven't been made aware of it already, I have banned Jzanjani for one week starting today.

I'm letting you know that I don't blame you for any actions you took against Jzanjani -- which consisted of, mainly, following good manners in reverting Jzanjani's wipes of his own talk page while an issue was still being discussed. Were I in your position, I would've done the same myself.

While I don't say this often -- perhaps because I feel I don't ''have'' to, but maybe I should just to make it clear -- I appreciate your contributions to this Wiki. You are a valued contributor here and I appreciate your restraint in this situation. You backed down and I'm sorry that Jzanjani didn't have the same sense to follow your example. Now both of you don't have to like each other, again I don't have the right to dictate how people should behave. Not my place. However, if it invovles this Wiki, then behavior becomes my concern and I'll make sure it stops at the front door, as it were. (Or the windows, or whatever entry point one chooses to use to enter this website.)

Believe me when I say that this could have spiraled so far out of control that it might have damaged this community we've built here.

If Jzanjani turns out to be a troll -- I hope to hell he isn't, but I've been disappointed before by human nature -- then I'll ban him permanently. I've made this clear to him on his talk page, so none of this should be constitued as "talking behind Jzanjani's back".

Anyway, again, I appreciate your contributions and, if you feel you need to take a break from the Wiki yourself, feel free. Take a breather. You've earned it the honest way, as it were.

Thank you. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:37, 8 October 2005 (EDT)

== Language/Aerelon/Grace Park ==
Hello Ricimer,

I hope I'm communicating with you the right away. I'm about as nugget as nugget gets on any Wiki system, including this one!

There were a couple of changes to the entry on Grace Park and Aerelon language that I wanted to explain. First, it is true that Grace Park is a fluent speaker of Korean, but her English--either as Sharon Valerii or as herself in interviews--doesn't have any trace of a Korean accent whatsoever. I'm married to a native Korean speaker, have friends and colleagues who speak Korean either as their first or second language, and have been studying the language for a few years myself, so I'm absolutely certain that Korean has no bearing on what might or might not be considered an Aerelon accent.

On a somewhat smaller matter, there's no accepted version of English called "General English," with a capital G. I am willing to accept a lower case g, "general English," to indicate "common sense" notions about that accent/group of accents.

:Actually, I am not the one that keeps putting the Korean references on that page, and I thought it was irrelevant but people kept putting them back. The thing I had was that I don't think that Grace Park (on or off camera) really speaks with a "Canadian accent" at all; you came here after this, but I had this whole edit that said that it was just an accent that we the audience could not possibly detect but a Colonial could, but this was removed. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:44, 19 October 2005 (EDT)

== Picture Updates to Battle Pages ==
Very nice work there, Ricimer. Adds greatly to the pages majesty and atmosphere. Trying to work these pages up to quality articles, perhaps? :) [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:32, 20 October 2005 (EDT)

== Pronunciation ==

How ''do'' you pronounce "Ricimer"? Is it RIH.kih.mer, or RIH.sih.mer? Or is the stress elsehwere? I'm just curious. --[[User:Day|Day]] 18:13, 22 October 2005 (EDT)

*[[Wikipedia:Ricimer|Ricimer]] was the "shadow ruler" of the Roman Empire in it's twilight years. He ruled through a series of puppet emperors, and while himself not 'officially' controlling the state, he was the puppeteer pulling all the strings from off stage. It was not only ''possible'' for me to take this name, it was ''essential''. It's pronounced "Rih-sih-mer" (mer as in drum''mer''). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:53, 22 October 2005 (EDT)

::Hrm. If that's Latin, then I doubt it had a soft C at the time. However, neither did Caesar, so I assume you're giving the modernized/bastardized pronunciation. Interesting name story. Huh. :) --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:02, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
:::Well, Ricimer belong to a german tribe, so his name probably wasn't Latin, I would assume. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:39, 24 December 2005 (EST)

== Image Use from GalacticaStation.com-A No-No ==

Ricimer, I strongly believe that using images from Galacticastation is some violation of derivative or extended use of another person's web site without permission, since the site appears private. The web site does not have a Creative Commons License, which is the only fair-use sharealike license we're supposed to acknowledge or derive content from. (Technically, we can't share items from Wikipedia for this reason--Peter had to chastise me on this when I was updating the [[Basestar (TOS)]] page. Yes, the images and likenesses that GS gets are Universal's, but it's ''where'' you get them that matters here.

For images, you can get many excellent caps from [http://tviv.org/wiki/Main_Page TVIV], a TV episode Wiki that does have a CCL, so we can copy items from there (with appropriate credit) without issue. They have a number of BSG ep pages that are really atrocious in textual content but generally great caps... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:25, 7 November 2005 (EST)

:I don't think it matters. Screengrabs we use on this site are copyright Universal Studios anyway, and used under the aegis of fair use, not the CCL. Galacticastation has no copyright over the screen grabs they post, and certainly can't relicense them to us under the CCL (or any license, for that matter). If we're infringing anyone's copyright by using the images, it's Universal's, not Galacticastation's. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:17, 7 November 2005 (EST)

::I've got one "yea" and one "nay" on this: can Joe please give me final word on whether or not we can use GalacticaStation screencaps? Because TVIV doesn't really have many useable ones. I've tried making one or two for Seelix and Jammer, which were removed. I'm a total spaz at this; how are screencaps ''originally'' made, anyway (what do you need to do it)? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:39, 24 December 2005 (EST)

::: I've made [http://battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=Special%3AContributions&offset=0&limit=50&target=Day&namespace=6 a few] image contributions, myself, and all of them are screens I grabbed by my lonesome. As I've gone, I've kind of hammered out a system: For DVDs (I own the British version of Season 1 and the first half of Season 2 on DVD, a friend of mine will be giving me the Mini, eventually), I view them in [http://www.videolan.org/ VLC], which has a "snapshot" feature which doesn't seem to care about copy protection (or whatever it is that makes the "Print Screen" button not work). This saves them as .png. I then fire up good ol' [http://www.gimp.org/ the GIMP] and do any cropping or resizing I feel like and save 'em as a .jpg. So... That's how '''I''' do it, anyway. --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:07, 27 December 2005 (EST)

== Sacrifice ==

Dude. Re: Your edit to the Season 2 episode listing. If you put the source in there, it would carry a lot more weight. Also... You have sacrifice as 2.14... Is that a mistake, or is there some weird numbering thing I'm missing or was there a typo in the note, or... What's up with that? Lastly, you should seriously consider trimming/archiving your talk page. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:08, 21 November 2005 (EST)

== Don't Bite the Newbies (or the Vets), Part Deux ==

Hey,Ricimer. You're an excellent contributor, but lately you've had the cordial conversational replies of Doc [[Cottle]] on crystal meth--your replies are becoming flamebait. When you're replying and correcting an edit, particularly done by a new contributor (and we've had lots of them lately), PLEASE try to respond politely, or at least in a neutral voice (Peter Farago does this well, even though I can almost hear the wafts of flame from his comments to me after he concises or edits away some of my fanciful stuff). We need more contributors, and scaring them off with a bad tone is Not Good, even if you're right. Also, keep in mind that not everyone has the gift of good English writing style (or even a good grasp of ''English'', period), so look around the bad grammar and spelling and try to see their point or meaning in their contributions, concising and editing to help perfect their addition. Don't take all of this too seriously. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:05, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:Spence, this itself is kind of flamey. Ricimer has been reasonably good lately. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:10, 9 December 2005 (EST)

::Helps to have conservative ballast around--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:26, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:I stand properly chastized if my language seems gruff--but hopefully you understand my meaning. Ricimer's recent summary comments on the Recent Changes and edit histories are the things I've reacted adversely to. We're not here in person, and whether people come or go is determined by the words and phrasing they see here. If they're misinterpreted, then there's a problem. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:22, 9 December 2005 (EST)

== Quote 09/30 ==

Wish you'd posted into the talk page, rather than re-reverting, man. --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:56, 13 December 2005 (EST)

== Regarding "Coffea" ==

I have referred to a source on the talk page which disagrees with your assertion regarding "coffea." It could also be noted it doesn't pass Aspell's en_US dictionary by default. I just wanted to ensure you saw it, as I didn't want to change it back without discussing it. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:04, 29 December 2005 (EST)

:Actually, as you can see on the talk page for that article, Peter Farago and others are the ones promoting that line of thinking. I myself am ambivalent. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:06, 29 December 2005 (EST)

== Unwanted Template Lines ==

How'd ya do it? By switching Templates? --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 17:32, 29 December 2005 (EST)
:Stared at it until I saw meaning; you have to include "|Children=" and "|Cylon=", but you don't write "yes" or "no" after it; leave it blank. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:43, 29 December 2005 (EST)
::Check that out. It was hiding in plain site. Danke! --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 18:20, 29 December 2005 (EST)

::: Isn't that all outlined on the tamplate's talk page? --[[User:Day|Day]] 19:21, 29 December 2005 (EST)

:::: (shrug) I dunno. I cheated. I was being lazy and stole it from somewhere. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 19:32, 29 December 2005 (EST)

== Regarding your RfA ==

Hi Ricimer, while your RfA did not pass, I firmly and wholeheartedly believe that you are fully capable of passing the RfA, should it come up again within, say, six months. If you have any concerns, feel free to address them with Peter, myself, or any of the other major contributors. Have a happy New Year! -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:31, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:I have yet to play my trump card. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:32, 30 December 2005 (EST)

:: Should I be afraid? *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 20:21, 31 December 2005 (EST)

=="Six Months" Business==
The episode hasn't aired in my time zone yet, but thanks for jumping on that. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:14, 7 January 2006 (EST)

==troll==
Ok, I gotta ask: what does "troll" mean? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 21:58, 9 January 2006 (EST) [[User_talk:Centuri|talk]]

Talk:The Fleet (TRS)/Archive 1

2006-01-10T01:28:19Z

Centuri: /* Botanical Cruiser */ spelling correction

I think we should add Galactica, and Pegaus in the fleet's listings.--[[User:QX100|QX100]] 7:59, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)
== Astral Queen ==

:I thought the [[Astral Queen]], from the New series, had 900 prisoners. Does anyone have a mini-series transcript? That's where the ship is first mentioned. -- [[User:Neochiiz3000|Neochiiz3000]] 12:07, 11 Jul 2005 (EST)

: Billy Keikeya - "Uh, the captain of the Astral Queen wants to you to know he's got nearly 500 convicted criminals under heavy guard in his cargo hold. They were being transported to a penal station when the attack happened." -- [[User:yenguyen|YeNguyen]] 13:09, 11 Jul 2005 (EST)

:I thought so... I was only off by about 400. Better than a full thousand, though. -- [[User:Neochiiz3000|Neochiiz3000]] 13:39, 11 Jul 2005 (EST)

:: It's 1,500 -- though in the mini-series Billy said 500. (Again, his trademark "crappy math" at work.) See: [[Bastille Day#Notes]]. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:40, 11 Jul 2005 (EDT)

:I wouldn't want BIlly as my secretary. I know that much :P -- [[User:yenguyen|YeNguyen]] 14:18, 11 Jul 2005 (EST)

== Celestra in New BSG ==

:Isn't there a Celestra in the new series, too? I thought I had read that somewhere (or maybe it was that one of the new ships was based on the Celestra design). [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 13:57, 11 Jul 2005 (EDT)

:: It's listed on the Sci Fi Channel's BSG page. Though as to whether or not it is canon has yet to be determined. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:17, 11 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== Size of the Fleet ==

"Saul Tigh's assertion in 'The Farm' that the twenty four ships which departed with the Laura Roslin faction during her insurrection represented 'almost a third of the fleet' imply that the number of ships in the Fleet is approximately in the mid-70's."

Could it be that Tigh was referring to the ''population'' of the fleet instead of the number of ships? Passenger and crew numbers vary considerably from ship to ship, but Tigh may have done more accurate math on the ones that had jumped earlier, then did a quick--but dependable--estimate when the last batch jumped.

:No, because he wasn't looking at a readout of WHICH ships had left; all he heard was "24 ships have left" with no names, so he couldn't be basing it on population, it had to be ship number; of course the problem presented is what if he was rounding ''down''? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:47, 30 October 2005 (EST)

::Yeah, and then there's context, too--if somebody's looking at/listening to information about ships, they would probably frame their immediate response to the information in terms of ships, too. Rounding down would be the only way for the writers to explain their way out of the inconsistency. That, or the Colonel's been taking math lessons from Billy. . . . --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 22:07, 30 October 2005 (EST)

:::From The Farm, we know that 24 ships was "almost a third of the fleet" - Tigh has no rason to underexagerate this. From Home, Part I, we know that the number of people in those 24 ships was actually a little over a third of the fleet's population. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:39, 31 October 2005 (EST)

Here's something to think about in regards to the size of the fleet and how it increased from 40 to over 70 since the mini-series. In the mini-series, Roslin sent Boomer out with her Raptor to gather other ships which ended up with a ragtag fleet of 40 or so FTL-capabale ships and some other ships that were future space debris when they had to be left behind. Adama sent out a Fleet Wide Communication for all capable ships to jump to the Ragnar Station and roundevous with the Galactica. It's possible that the 30 or so extra ships that the fleet ended up with were other craft that recieved the communication and headed to Ragnar without hooking up with Rolsin's group. Does anyone else agree with this assessment? I think it's valid considering the chaning size of the fleet and would justify the presence of more than one refinery ship (one arrived with Roslin's group and others showed up in response to Adama's message). --[[Ltcrashdown]] 20:16, 1 January 2006 (EST)

: I think you may be losing sight of what's, well, possible. Several things established in the Mini were changed for the series. When they were making the Mini, they weren't sure that there was going to be a series, so they didn't exactly plan on it. So those thirty ships came out of the script room. However, since then, we can probably better assume that the fleet size will be more consistant and, thus, worth talking about in terms of in-the-show reasons. --[[User:Day|Day]] 20:39, 1 January 2006 (EST)

::It's an admirable attempt at a [[Wikipedia:no-Prize|no-prize]], but has some problems of its own - Adama's order only went out to military units: "Send a message to all the colonial military units. Use priority channel one. Message begins: "Am taking command of fleet." Apollo then reads the message in full from Colonial One: "To all colonial units, am taking command of fleet. All units ordered to rendezvous at Ragnar anchorage for regroup and counterattack. Acknowledge by same encryption protocol, Adama."

::So I think I have to agree with Day - unless each of the 30 ships happened to have a colonial military officer with military ciphers on board, I don't see how they could have found Galactica at Ragnar. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:49, 1 January 2006 (EST)

:::Well, it was worth a try. I thought I remembered the message only being for military ships, but if you consider that Dee or Gaeta are Cylons, then they may have 'accidentally' sent the message to non-military ships to increase the number of potential Cylon sleeper agents. Just a thought. I figured the message from Adama was just about the only way for more ships to arrive. --Ltcrashdown 21:27, 1 January 2006 (EST)

==Botanical Cruiser==
Kahran writes: ''(While the original was destroyed in the Mini-Series, various background shots have placed an FTL-equiped Botanical Cruiser in the fleet.)''

Are you sure that's not Cloud 9? They have similar external features. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:02, 27 November 2005 (EST)

::I'm positive it's the Botanical Cruiser. They've re-used the FTL jump shot from the Mini Series at least once during season two. Durring "[[Scattered]]" when the fleet is making its emergencey jump there's a shot of various ships jumping away and right in the dead centre of the shot is the Botanical Cruiser from the Mini-Series. [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 20:32, 1 January 2006 (EST)

I noticed it too. Curious, either a mistake (like the B5 shot of the Agamenon destroying civilian transports) or it could be that it is a simalar fhip that IS equiped with FTL. It's possible that drives are used on ship as needed. If a ship is NOT intended to travel over interstallar distances, then it wouldn't need a FTL drive. FTL drives are probably costly to make, maitain, or operate -- not to mention the fuel/energy requirments. If a ship was only ment to operate in-system, an FTL drive might not have been cost effective. The inclusion of an ARGO ship is a tip of the hat to ship's inclusion in the opriginal series. In the original, stock footage of the ship from the movie SILENT RUNNING was used. In this new show, an original designed vessel was created -- probably because people knew about the stck footage use -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:29, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:The article for the [[Botanical Cruiser]] notes the origin. Yes, it was a recreation of the [[Agro Ship]] as an homage to the ships used in TOS, which were the redressed models used in ''Silent Running.''. That the Botanical Cruiser may seem to appear in the fleet suggests (from a story POV) that there is a FTL-capable ship of similar appearance that joined the Fleet. I think it's a gaffe--the visual effects people used stock footage or models and didn't think. Also, understand that FTL in the RDM series is apparent travel, not true "warp drive"-like flight. See the [[FTL]] article for a good synopsis. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:32, 8 January 2006 (EST)

==FTL==
Acording to the article, in the original show "With the exception of Galactica, the ships were not capable of lightspeed. " I would like to know where this particular tidbit came from. As I remember some ships originallly were sub-light, but they were reto-fitted to be FTL capable. The problem was that none of them were capable of HIGH FTL speeds. Remember the specs of the Galactica show that she was capable of a flank speed of 10C. Remember, they were croosing not just interstellar space, but intergalactic space. If they were only in the Greater Magelanic Cloud, it would mean having to cover a distance of 140,000 light-years to get here. At anything other than FTL, the goal would be unatainable. Crossing interstellar distances requires FTL, no ifs, no ands, no buts. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:29, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:In the RDM series, FTL is FTL, it's not a matter of speed, but of distance in terms of the "length" of a wormhole that can be made from place to place. RDM's universe sticks to Einsteinian theories. TOS stories generally were a mismash of "science" that sometimes got in the way of the story. The Fleet probably moves at a good distance on each Jump, but space is really big. Like their TOS counterparts, it will be some time before they find Earth. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:38, 8 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-10T01:04:29Z

Centuri: /* Why? */ ''The Young & the Resless meets Days of Our Lives and the Guiding Light'' in space

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-10T00:56:19Z

Centuri: /* Why? */ ?

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-10T00:54:38Z

Centuri: /* Why? */ All murders committed by any person in the fleet, shall be punished with death by the sentence of a court martial.

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-10T00:31:55Z

Centuri: /* Why? */ Killing defenceless civilians is prohibited by the articles of war

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-09T23:32:41Z

Centuri: /* Why? */ And what are you talking about?

Helena Cain

2006-01-09T06:06:53Z

Centuri: wording

{{Character Data|
|photo=[[Image:Nelena.jpg|200px]]
|age= 38 (Based on age of actress [[Michelle Forbes]])
|colony=[[Tauron]]
|birthname=Helena Cain
|callsign=
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status=
|role=Commanding Officer, [[Battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus]]''
|rank=Admiral
|actor=[[Michelle Forbes]]
|cylon=
}}

Admiral '''Helena Cain''', hailing from the colony [[Tauron]], is commander of the [[Mercury class battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus]]''. At the time of the [[Cylon attack]], her battlestar is stationed at the [[Scorpion Fleet Shipyards]] for upgrades and shore leave. As the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] attack, destroying other battlestars and support ships there, Cain orders a [[Blind jump|blind Jump]], gambling that the result of such an impromptu (and inadvisable) escape would be better than the alternative of destruction.

Somehow, she rescues survivors from the Shipyards, including a woman named [[Gina]]. Gina, later discovered as a [[Humano-Cylon|Cylon agent]], summarily caused the death of 800 persons under Cain's command when she informs the Cylons of their survival. Thwarting that, Cain leads the battlestar away from the [[Twelve Colonies]], following a Cylon fleet that trailed what they discover as sister battlestar ''[[Galactica]]''.

Cain not only enjoys the sensation of power, but also the acquisition of more of it. Upon meeting up with Commander [[William Adama]]'s [[Fleet]], she assumes command and transfers personnel from ''Galactica'' to ''Pegasus'', including [[Lee Adama]] and [[Kara Thrace]], indicating that Adama has let military discipline become too lax. Cain is more interested in fighting the Cylons, seemingly oblivious to the point that she and the ships around her are all that was left of the human race, whose survival is more paramount than offensive assaults. While Adama initially welcomes such attacks against a mysterious Cylon force that followed the Fleet (to stop it from following them), his attitude begins to cool about Cain's very strict and unmerciful leadership.

Cain's actions also raise concerns with President [[Laura Roslin]]. Cain recognizes Roslin and her former role as Secretary of Education. After the Fleet command transfer from Adama to Cain, Roslin makes several attempts to call Cain to request supplies for the civilian fleet, but all of Roslin's calls are ignored.

Cain may also show brutal behavior when commanding her own staff, according to a conversation over alcohol that Colonel [[Saul Tigh]] has with his ''Pegasus'' counterpart, Colonel [[Jack Fisk]]. Fisk comments that, after ''Pegasus' ''initially escapes, the battlestar once tries to attack a Cylon communications relay -- an easy target. On arrival in the system, however, it turns out the target is a Cylon staging area, filled with 15 squadrons of [[Raider]]s. Admiral Cain ordered her previous Executive Officer, a man she had served with for years, to carry out the attack anyway, but he refuses the order in the face of such odds. Admiral Cain asked the XO for his gun, and shot him in the head in front of the crew in the Pegasus [[CIC]]. Cain then turned to Fisk and ordered him to launch the attack, which he did. After relating this story to Col. Tigh, Col. Fisk says he is joking about the incident.

Although the story could be unreliable because Fisk is drunk at the time, Tigh relays the story and his suspicions of his likelihood to Adama. Adama cautions that ''Galactica's'' crew has also made some questionable actions since the attack. Even if the story is true, Adama is willing to give Cain the benefit of the doubt and not question the matter further.

After the suspect fatal assault of one of her crew members, Lieutenant [[Thorne]], Cain arrests Chief [[Tyrol]] and Lieutenant Karl "[[Helo]]" Agathon and flies them to ''Pegasus'', under Adama's protest, since traditionally a trial is held on the ship where an incident has occurred. Cain uses ''Galactica's'' log against Adama when he asks for a tribunal; Cain notes that Adama dismissed the last council unilaterally when the verdict did not suit him. Cain summarily court-martials the prisoners herself in a matter of hours, sentencing them to death. Commander Adama is far from pleased, and orders an assault crew to head for ''Pegasus'' to bring his men back. Cain responds by deploying her squadrons of advanced Mark VII Vipers against Adama's museum collection of Mark II Vipers in a tense standoff ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]).

{{spoiltext|[[Number Six|Gina]] kills Admiral Cain. ([[Resurrection Ship]]).}}

== Notes ==

*Helena Cain is inspired by the character of Commander [[Cain (TOS)|Cain]] from the original ''[[Battlestar Galactica (1978)|Battlestar Galactica]]'', portrayed by the late [[Lloyd Bridges]].

*Actress Michelle Forbes guest starred as Dara Timicin in the ''[http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation Star Trek: The Next Generation]'' episode "Half a Life" and had a recurring role as Ensign [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Ro_Laren Ro Laren] during the last three seasons of ''[http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation Star Trek: The Next Generation]''. ''Battlestar Galactica'' executive producer [[Ronald D. Moore]], also a ''TNG'' veteran, wrote for her character in the episodes [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Disaster Disaster] and [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Next_Phase The Next Phase].

*Cain's habit of expediting meetings by conducting them without chairs is borrowed from UN Ambassador [[Wikipedia:John R. Bolton|John R. Bolton]]. (Source: "Pegasus" podcast)

{{Characters}}

[[Category: A to Z|Cain, Helena]] [[Category: Characters|Cain, Helena]] [[Category:People from Tauron|Cain, Helena]] [[Category: RDM|Cain, Helena]]

Talk:The Fleet (TRS)/Archive 1

2006-01-08T11:29:21Z

Centuri: /* FTL

I think we should add Galactica, and Pegaus in the fleet's listings.--[[User:QX100|QX100]] 7:59, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)
== Astral Queen ==

:I thought the [[Astral Queen]], from the New series, had 900 prisoners. Does anyone have a mini-series transcript? That's where the ship is first mentioned. -- [[User:Neochiiz3000|Neochiiz3000]] 12:07, 11 Jul 2005 (EST)

: Billy Keikeya - "Uh, the captain of the Astral Queen wants to you to know he's got nearly 500 convicted criminals under heavy guard in his cargo hold. They were being transported to a penal station when the attack happened." -- [[User:yenguyen|YeNguyen]] 13:09, 11 Jul 2005 (EST)

:I thought so... I was only off by about 400. Better than a full thousand, though. -- [[User:Neochiiz3000|Neochiiz3000]] 13:39, 11 Jul 2005 (EST)

:: It's 1,500 -- though in the mini-series Billy said 500. (Again, his trademark "crappy math" at work.) See: [[Bastille Day#Notes]]. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:40, 11 Jul 2005 (EDT)

:I wouldn't want BIlly as my secretary. I know that much :P -- [[User:yenguyen|YeNguyen]] 14:18, 11 Jul 2005 (EST)

== Celestra in New BSG ==

:Isn't there a Celestra in the new series, too? I thought I had read that somewhere (or maybe it was that one of the new ships was based on the Celestra design). [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 13:57, 11 Jul 2005 (EDT)

:: It's listed on the Sci Fi Channel's BSG page. Though as to whether or not it is canon has yet to be determined. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:17, 11 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== Size of the Fleet ==

"Saul Tigh's assertion in 'The Farm' that the twenty four ships which departed with the Laura Roslin faction during her insurrection represented 'almost a third of the fleet' imply that the number of ships in the Fleet is approximately in the mid-70's."

Could it be that Tigh was referring to the ''population'' of the fleet instead of the number of ships? Passenger and crew numbers vary considerably from ship to ship, but Tigh may have done more accurate math on the ones that had jumped earlier, then did a quick--but dependable--estimate when the last batch jumped.

:No, because he wasn't looking at a readout of WHICH ships had left; all he heard was "24 ships have left" with no names, so he couldn't be basing it on population, it had to be ship number; of course the problem presented is what if he was rounding ''down''? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:47, 30 October 2005 (EST)

::Yeah, and then there's context, too--if somebody's looking at/listening to information about ships, they would probably frame their immediate response to the information in terms of ships, too. Rounding down would be the only way for the writers to explain their way out of the inconsistency. That, or the Colonel's been taking math lessons from Billy. . . . --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 22:07, 30 October 2005 (EST)

:::From The Farm, we know that 24 ships was "almost a third of the fleet" - Tigh has no rason to underexagerate this. From Home, Part I, we know that the number of people in those 24 ships was actually a little over a third of the fleet's population. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:39, 31 October 2005 (EST)

Here's something to think about in regards to the size of the fleet and how it increased from 40 to over 70 since the mini-series. In the mini-series, Roslin sent Boomer out with her Raptor to gather other ships which ended up with a ragtag fleet of 40 or so FTL-capabale ships and some other ships that were future space debris when they had to be left behind. Adama sent out a Fleet Wide Communication for all capable ships to jump to the Ragnar Station and roundevous with the Galactica. It's possible that the 30 or so extra ships that the fleet ended up with were other craft that recieved the communication and headed to Ragnar without hooking up with Rolsin's group. Does anyone else agree with this assessment? I think it's valid considering the chaning size of the fleet and would justify the presence of more than one refinery ship (one arrived with Roslin's group and others showed up in response to Adama's message). --[[Ltcrashdown]] 20:16, 1 January 2006 (EST)

: I think you may be losing sight of what's, well, possible. Several things established in the Mini were changed for the series. When they were making the Mini, they weren't sure that there was going to be a series, so they didn't exactly plan on it. So those thirty ships came out of the script room. However, since then, we can probably better assume that the fleet size will be more consistant and, thus, worth talking about in terms of in-the-show reasons. --[[User:Day|Day]] 20:39, 1 January 2006 (EST)

::It's an admirable attempt at a [[Wikipedia:no-Prize|no-prize]], but has some problems of its own - Adama's order only went out to military units: "Send a message to all the colonial military units. Use priority channel one. Message begins: "Am taking command of fleet." Apollo then reads the message in full from Colonial One: "To all colonial units, am taking command of fleet. All units ordered to rendezvous at Ragnar anchorage for regroup and counterattack. Acknowledge by same encryption protocol, Adama."

::So I think I have to agree with Day - unless each of the 30 ships happened to have a colonial military officer with military ciphers on board, I don't see how they could have found Galactica at Ragnar. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:49, 1 January 2006 (EST)

:::Well, it was worth a try. I thought I remembered the message only being for military ships, but if you consider that Dee or Gaeta are Cylons, then they may have 'accidentally' sent the message to non-military ships to increase the number of potential Cylon sleeper agents. Just a thought. I figured the message from Adama was just about the only way for more ships to arrive. --Ltcrashdown 21:27, 1 January 2006 (EST)

==Botanical Cruiser==
Kahran writes: ''(While the original was destroyed in the Mini-Series, various background shots have placed an FTL-equiped Botanical Cruiser in the fleet.)''

Are you sure that's not Cloud 9? They have similar external features. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:02, 27 November 2005 (EST)

::I'm positive it's the Botanical Cruiser. They've re-used the FTL jump shot from the Mini Series at least once during season two. Durring "[[Scattered]]" when the fleet is making its emergencey jump there's a shot of various ships jumping away and right in the dead centre of the shot is the Botanical Cruiser from the Mini-Series. [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 20:32, 1 January 2006 (EST)

I noticed it too. Curious, either a mistake (like the B5 shot of the Agamenon destroying civilian transports) or it could be that it is a simalar fhip that IS equiped with FTL. It's possible that drives are used on ship as needed. If a ship is NOT intended to travel over interstallar distances, then it wouldn't need a FTL drive. FTL drives are probably costly to make, maitain, or operate -- not to mention the fuel/energy requirments. If a ship was only ment to perate i-system, an FTL drive might not have been cost effective. The inclusion of an ARGO ship is a tip of the hat to ship's inclusion in the opriginal series. In the original, stock footage of the ship from the movie SILENT RUNNING was used. In this new show, an original designed vessel was created -- probably because people knew about the stck footage use -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:29, 8 January 2006 (EST)

==FTL==
Acording to the article, in the original show "With the exception of Galactica, the ships were not capable of lightspeed. " I would like to know where this particular tidbit came from. As I remember some ships originallly were sub-light, but they were reto-fitted to be FTL capable. The problem was that none of them were capable of HIGH FTL speeds. Remember the specs of the Galactica show that she was capable of a flank speed of 10C. Remember, they were croosing not just interstellar space, but intergalactic space. If they were only in the Greater Magelanic Cloud, it would mean having to cover a distance of 140,000 light-years to get here. At anything other than FTL, the goal would be unatainable. Crossing interstellar distances requires FTL, no ifs, no ands, no buts. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:29, 8 January 2006 (EST)

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-01-08T11:06:33Z

Centuri: /* Helena? */ Why