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The Oath

2009-02-02T06:54:08Z

Capedia: /* Act 1 */

{{Episode Data
| image=4x12 - Promo Pic - Tyrol Lee - The Oath- .jpg
| title= The Oath
| season= 4
| episode=13
| guests=
| writer= [[Mark Verheiden]] <ref name="verhblog">{{cite_web|url=http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/04/battlestar-galactica-episode-415.html|title=Mark Verheiden's blog: Battlestar Galactica - Episode 415!|}}</ref>
| story=
| director= [[John Dahl]] <ref name="verhblog"/>
| production=415
| rating=
| US airdate=January 30, 2009 <ref>http://tv.ign.com/articles/920/920164p1.html</ref>
| CAN airdate=January 30, 2009
| UK airdate=February 3, 2009
| dvd=
| population=
| prev=[[A Disquiet Follows My Soul]]
| next=[[Blood on the Scales]]
| forumthread=2490
}}

==Overview==
''The opposition to the alliance with the rebel Cylons reaches its zenith, [[Felix Gaeta]] leads a mutiny aboard Galactica and frees [[Tom Zarek]] from prison.''

==Summary==
===Teaser===
* In Admiral [[William Adama|Adama's]] quarters, the admiral offers the entering [[Saul Tigh]] a cup of algae-ground coffee, which Tigh refuses. Tigh reports that civilian captains are refusing to allow the rebel [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] to refit their [[FTL|jump]] drives for longer range.

* As Tigh continues his report, [[Laura Roslin]] enters from the bathroom, dressed only in a bathrobe and carrying a book. Her smile seems to indicate her enjoyment of Tigh's mild shock at her candid appearance and its implications.

* Gathering his composure, Tigh continues. The [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet's]] attitude toward all Cylons ([[Final Five|Tigh included]]) would make it challenging for Tigh to solve the problem. Adama agrees.

* [[Felix Gaeta]] arrives at [[Tom Zarek]]'s cell in the [[brig]], accompanied by several [[marines]] and other crew. A crewman informs Gaeta that [[Narcho]] and Private Paley have secured a [[small arms locker]].
* Gaeta and Zarek talk about how to keep the [[Quorum of Twelve (RDM)|Quorum]] from reacting badly to their plans, particularly [[Lee Adama]]. Gaeta advises Zarek to push Representative Adama's buttons, since he's "good at that."

* In the admiral's quarters, Roslin discusses the Fleet's issues [[A Disquiet Follows My Soul|for the first time in days]]. She and Adama both agree that the alliance with the rebel Cylons, and general amnesty they were given is not working, and that Lee Adama may not be able to convince the quorum otherwise. Roslin has to force herself to stop talking about the Fleet's problems, and the two say goodbye with affectionate small talk about having dinner ready for Adama when he returns from his shift.

* Gaeta's team escorts Zarek to the [[hangar deck]]. When [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]] sees them, she yells out, pretending that her [[Raptor]] has a serious fuel leak. This effectively clears most of the deck's occupants out, but [[Jeanne]] lingers unseen in the upper gangway above the deck, and observes everything.

* As Racetrack tells Gaeta that she's disabled the Raptor's transponder, Deck Chief [[Peter Laird]] steps in, questioning the authorization for the Raptor's departure. When Laird is not dissuaded from calling [[CIC]] to verify the ship's use, Zarek quietly picks up a wrench and strikes Laird on the skull, killing him. Jeanne swiftly runs from the gangway, having witnessed the murder.

* When Gaeta reacts in shock to Zarek's action, the Vice President tells Gaeta not to hold on to some "operatic ideal" of how his "revolution" must be handled; any hesitation could jeopardize their plans.

===Act 1===

* In [[CIC]], [[Hoshi]] notes a ship launch that he can't authenticate in the flight log--and [[DRADIS]] does not show any [[IFF|transponder ID]]. Gaeta, taking his place at his station, stalls Hoshi, advising him to look at other logs from the flight deck.
* When Tigh tells Adama quietly that he has had had [[Nowart]] gather marines for further action to compel other civliian ships to comply, Adama warns that doing the same thing as was done with the ''[[Hitei Kan]]'' a few days prior would likely destroy the likelihood of anyone in the Fleet supporting the fragile Cylon alliance.
* Hoshi continues to try to verify the flying contact as Gaeta tries to stall.

* On ''[[Colonial One]]'' as Lee Adama tries to placate an agitated Quorum, Zarek returns, to everyone's shock.

* [[Diana Seelix]] meets with [[Samuel Anders]] in one of the officer's quarters. She slyly talks about her attraction to him as other crew sneak up, blindfold and savagely beat him.

* As Adama hands Private [[Jaffee]] a log to file, Hoshi reports of a fire near the ship's [[wireless]] antenna array. As Adama gives orders for damage control teams to handle the issue, Gaeta warns that the "fire" might not be an accident. Adama agrees and orders [[marines]] to accompany the DC teams.

* In another officer's quarters, [[Kara Thrace]] jokes with [[Brendan Costanza]] and his new [[Nicholas Tyrol|fatherhood]], commenting how her decision of his pilot nickname of "Hotdog" was an apt one. Constanza angrily replies that Thrace has "[[frak]]ked half the Fleet" and has nothing to show for her similar indiscretions. Thrace throws her bowl of food as Constanza leaves.
* A split second later evacuation alarms ring out. When Thrace steps out to ask Narcho why he, a pilot, is handling damage control, Narcho nastily spurns her senior rank: "Nobody even knows [[The Destiny|what you are]] anymore."
* When Thrace sees a mix of marines and other civilians heading in the opposite direction, she follows them on gut reaction.
* Thrace sees the people break into a small arms locker, arming themselves, with [[Charlie Connor]] issuing orders to both military and civilian personnel. She runs back to her quarters grabs her sidearm and ammo and calls CIC. Gaeta ignores her warning of the break-in. Thrace quickly deduces what's going on.

* On ''Colonial One'', Lee Adama also tries to call his father regarding Zarek's release, but Gaeta blocks Adama's attempt to reach the admiral by claiming that the admiral is busy. Gaeta also feigns ignorance about Zarek's release.
* Zarek steps in, telling Lee that the admiral released him because Zarek would not be a threat if Adama didn't recognize civilian authority. Lee believes otherwise, and leaves for ''Galactica''.

* Gaeta fakes a shipwide communications failure, including backup systems.
* Lee Adama arrives on the hangar deck from his Raptor and is immediately accosted by [[Skulls]] and several others, intent on killing him as Racetrack watches on. "Where are your precious Cylons now?" Connor says as a marine points a gun to Adama's head.
* A shot rings out, but not from the gun Adama stares into. Kara Thrace has shot the marine with the gun and orders Adama's release. When Skulls objects, Thrace doesn't hesitate a second to shoot Skulls in the shoulder. "I can do this all day," she warns, pulling out a second sidearm.
* As Adama runs out, Thrace follows, warning the rest, "Follow me. Please," so she could have a better excuse to shoot them as well.

* As [[Sharon Agathon]] feeds her [[Hera Agathon|daughter]], [[Karl Agathon]] gets his uniform on and warns Sharon to get Hera to daycare.
* Just then, the hatchway on their quarters is being jostled. Someone is trying to get in, and soon succeeds: an angry mob, led by [[Gage]], a former ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' crewman who remembers Agathon's role in the accidental death of [[Alistair Thorne]].
* Gage gloats that he plans on raping Sharon Agathon later as marines beat Helo into unconsciousness.

===Act 2===

* Thrace and Lee Adama seal themselves in a dry storage locker, reviewing what's happened. "Semper frakkin' fi," Thrace hisses after checking a phone, discovering it dead. Adama is astonished how people he's trusted have turned mutinous. He realizes the hangar deck was only the beachhead to a ship-wide takeover of the ship.
* Thrace passionately kisses Lee and tells him she hasn't felt this alive in weeks. They leave to work out what to do, gather people who will help. They try to make their way to [[CIC]]. As they move through the corridors of the ship, they hear gunfire and screams in the distance.
* They pass by several unidentified bodies as well as groups of huddled civilians trying to stay out of the crossfire. A marine pursues a group of armed civilians and exchanges gunfire with them. The duo encounter an unidentified crewman with a pistol who yields to them, suggesting that he is an ally, then continues on.
* CIC is in confusion as Gaeta continues to throw false report after report, keeping Tigh and the admiral off-base.
* The Agathons are thrown in the Cylon brig along with [[Caprica-Six]] and [[Samuel Anders]]. Caprica-Six warns that this is a start to eradicating the Cylons, especially their children. Athena reassures her that they'll be kept alive for now as bargaining chips.
* As Jaffee returns to report that the array's damage was faked, Gaeta initiates the final phase of the takeover, calling in several marines who are part of the mutiny, who encircle Adama and the startled CIC staff. A handful of marines who are not involved remain in the room as well. When one of Gaeta's marines signals as though he is about to shoot the Admiral, Jaffee takes the bullet for him, receiving a fatal wound in the process.
* A firefight ensues, and several marines are killed, including those who are not involved in the mutiny. Gaeta orders his men to cease fire, then orders Adama and his staff to stand down, which the admiral reluctantly agrees to do, despite Tigh's anger.
* Gaeta tells Adama that he is removing him from command of ''Galactica'' on the charge of treason.
* Adama accuses Gaeta of betraying his oath and uniform, while Gaeta retorts that the admiral has done that himself by allying with the Cylons.
* Adama angrily warns that, unlike in times past, there will be no forgiveness or amnesty for this takeover.
* Gaeta orders the marines to arrest Adama, Tigh, and the senior staff and to place them in a holding cell.

===Act 3===

* Kara Thrace and Lee Adama make it to the admiral's quarters, finding Laura Roslin there, telling her of the uprising, the communications blackout and that Zarek is in control on ''Colonial One.''
* Roslin has had enough; she puts on her coat and leads them all out, knowing of one way to get a message out over wireless.

* Gaeta, now commanding CIC, orders [[Redwing]] and his marine team to secure the engine room. Specialist Gage now sits in Gaeta's old station.

* Surrounded by [[Cult of Baltar|his followers]], [[Gaius Baltar]] wishes his group well as he prepares to leave, believing that the uprising will come to get him as well. [[Galen Tyrol]] confirms Jeanne's fears to Baltar.
* As Roslin, Thrace and Lee Adama arrive, Tyrol briefs them. Using secured wireless handhelds, Tyrol has learned that the admiral is in custody. He tells him that he's in control of an airlock that could be used to get Adama off the ship. When Lee asks why Tyrol is doing this, Tyrol tells him that the "[[The Old Man|old man]]" deserves a better fate.

* Tigh and Adama begin speaking to their two marine escorts. Nowart and Maldonaldo. Adama challenges Nowart to shoot him and questions whether Nowart has "got a pair." The distraction works. Tigh and Adama manage to turn the tables, Adama shooting Maldonado and taking Nowart hostage.

* Roslin and Baltar talk. She knows that Baltar's pirate wireless transmitter that he's used to communicate to his followers throughout the Fleet could be used to warn others in the Fleet as well.

* Adama and Tigh watch Connor give orders to other mutineers. Nowart tells them that he was ordered to take them all to the brig. They head there.

* CIC communications are being besieged by confused voices from other Fleet captains as Laura Roslin's voice begins to talk to the Fleet, telling them all, including the Quorum, of the uprising, pleading all to follow the rightful authorities. Gage is unable to stop the pirate signal until Gaeta gets to the station to jam it. But now the Fleet's comm chatter worsens, asking for more information from Roslin and what is happening on the battlestar.

* Lee and Thrace meet up with Adama and Tigh in the brig. Thrace angrily reacts to Nowart's presence as Adama tells him to leave. Thrace shoots at Nowart's way, warning the admiral that they are not his men anymore.

===Act 4===

* In the secondary storage airlock, Roslin and Baltar talk about Gaeta and his duplicitous nature.
* As Adama and team make their way there, Baltar takes a moment to try to get Gaeta to stop his takeover. He reminds him of their failings on [[New Caprica]], suggesting that Gaeta was complicit with the Cylon occupation. Gaeta closes the channel.
* A Raptor is heading towards ''Galactica'' from the Cylon [[Basestar (RDM)|baseship]], but Gaeta realizes the craft isn't heading for the hangar deck.

* The Raptor docks in the bay, piloted by an [[Number Eight|Eight]]. Roslin and Adama greet each other and kiss, causing Lee and Thrace to look at each other in surprise. Tyrol's men get word of marines heading their way.
* Baltar and Roslin board the Raptor, but the admiral orders Tyrol to get Lee and Thrace out and back to his secured area. He and Tigh choose to stay behind to ensure that the Raptor gets away.

* Gaeta orders the [[CAP]] to intercept and destroy the escaping Raptor as the episode ends.

* The marines, led by [[Aaron Kelly]], use welding torches to cut through the airlock locks and open the door slightly. Adama returns fire. "It's been an honor to serve with you, my friend," Adama tells Tigh, as marines throw a flash grenade through the doors.

== Analysis ==
*Quite a few people have sided with Zarek and Gaeta. These include pilots Narcho, Racetrack, Skulls, Redwing and Diana Seelix, marines Maldonaldo and Nowart, specialists Vireem and Gage, Lieutenant Aaron Kelly, and civilian Charlie Connor. In this episode, Maldonaldo is killed by Adama, Skulls is shot and wounded by Kara Thrace, and Nowart is captured and later released by Adama.
*The Adama/Roslin loyalists include Saul Tigh, Lee Adama, Kara Thrace, Galen Tyrol, Helo, Athena, and Hoshi. Gaius Baltar has also sided with Roslin out of self-preservation. By the end of the episode, the only known characters on ''Galactica'' capable of retaking the ship are Lee Adama, Kara Thrace, and Galen Tyrol. Roslin and Baltar have fled ''Galactica'', Admiral Adama and Saul Tigh are cornered, and Helo, Athena and Hoshi were captured before they even knew what was happening.
*The mutiny seems to have revitalized Kara Thrace and Laura Roslin. Thrace is the first one to organize any form of resistance against the mutineers. Roslin has openly addressed the Fleet for the first time since the discovery of Earth.
*The mutiny has given Kara Thrace a purpose in life as well as an outlet to channel her inner demons. She throws herself into battle without hesitation or regard for her own safety. She has also become much colder as evidenced by her attempts to gun down an unarmed Nowart.
*Despite forming a partnership to overthrow Adama, Zarek and Gaeta clearly have differing ideas of how to go about dealing with their opponents. The brutal killing of Laird is but one example of how Zarek is willing to go to much more extreme lengths than Gaeta, who seems to want the coup to succeed without excessive bloodshed. Zarek also lets slip that he disapproves of Gaeta arresting the senior staff of ''Galactica'' rather than just executing them. It remains to be seen how far this rift will widen.
*Gaeta appears to want the removal of Adama without recourse to too much violence, as shown by his attempt to stop the gunfire in CIC and his refusal to execute Adama and the senior staff on the spot. Nevertheless Gaeta has clearly mentally and morally committed himself to the mutiny to the point where he eventually orders the shooting down of the Raptor carrying Roslin to the basetar (although he does not know who is aboard).
*It does not seem essential in the end for Tigh and Adama to stay in the storage bay while the marines break down the door, as the Raptor is clear before the marines make it through. It is possible that Adama would have remained anyway, refusing to abandon his ship.
* Adama's final words to his XO show how he still holds Saul Tigh in high regard as his friend, regardless of his revealed Cylon nature.
*Lee Adama's sharp comments to Tigh shows the hard line towards the Cylons still held by the younger Adama, which has been displayed in earlier episodes such as "[[A Measure of Salvation]]" when he proposed a genocidal biological attack on the Cylons. Despite this Lee tempers his feelings with his pragmatic attitude to the Cylon alliance alongside his loyalty to Roslin and his father, noting that it is all they have left to survive.

== Questions ==
*What will happen to Adama and Tigh?
*Where are Kara Thrace, Lee Adama, and Galen Tyrol heading off to?
*How much impact has Roslin's speech had on the Fleet?
*Will Zarek get the rest of the Fleet to fall in line?
*Just how far is Gaeta willing to go to rid the Fleet of the Cylons?
*How will the rebel Cylons react to the uprising?
*Will Roslin enlist the aid of the rebel Cylons to bring down Zarek?
*Where do other crew members such as Hot Dog and Doc Cottle stand?
*Were Gaeta's men actually planning to execute Lee Adama?
*What are Racetrack and Skulls' personal motivations for joining Gaeta?
*How much of ''Galactica'' has Gaeta taken control of?
*Where did Nowart flee to?
*Will any of the mutineers switch sides? What about the loyalists?
*What other loyalists besides Lee Adama and Kara Thrace remain at large on ''Galactica''?
*Will Skulls survive his injuries?

== Official Statements ==

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

== Guest Stars ==
* [[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]]
* [[Brad Dryborough]] as Lieutenant [[Louis Hoshi]]
* [[Sebastian Spence]] as Lieutenant [[Noel Allison|Noel "Narcho" Allison]]
* [[Bodie Olmos]] as Lieutenant [[Brendan Costanza|Brendan "Hot Dog" Costanza]]
* [[Leah Cairns]] as Lieutenant [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
* [[Colin Lawrence]] as Lieutenant [[Hamish McCall|Hamish "Skulls" McCall]]
* [[Jennifer Halley]] as Ensign [[Diana Seelix|Diana "Harball" Seelix]]
* [[Ty Olsson]] as Lieutenant [[Aaron Kelly]]
* [[Vincent Gale]] as Chief [[Peter Laird]]
* [[Colin Corrigan]] as Sergeant [[Allan Nowart]]
* [[Craig Veroni]] as Sergeant [[Maldonaldo]]
* [[Michael Leisen]] as Private [[Stewart Jaffee]]
* [[Derek Delost]] as Specialist [[Vireem]]
* [[Mike Dopud]] as Specialist [[Gage]]
* [[Ryan Robbins]] as [[Charlie Connor]]
* [[Alexandra Thomas]] as [[Hera Agathon]]
* [[Keegan Connor Tracy]] as [[Jeanne]]
* [[Lara Gilchrist]] as [[Paulla Schaffer]]
* [[Andrew McIlroy]] as [[Jacob Cantrell]]
* [[Marilyn Norry]] as [[Reza Chronides]]
* [[Judith Maxie]] as [[Unnamed civilians in the Fleet (RDM)#Picon Delegate|Picon Delegate]]
* [[Iris Paluly]] as [[Unnamed civilians in the Fleet (RDM)#Tauron Delegate|Tauron Delegate]] (credited as "Speaking Delegate #2)
* [[Veena Sood]] as [[Unnamed civilians in the Fleet (RDM)#Quorum Delegate|Quorum Delegate]]

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 4)}}

[[Category:Episodes written by Mark Verheiden]]
[[Category:RDM]]

The Oath

2009-02-02T06:46:43Z

Capedia: /* Teaser */ spelling correction

{{Episode Data
| image=4x12 - Promo Pic - Tyrol Lee - The Oath- .jpg
| title= The Oath
| season= 4
| episode=13
| guests=
| writer= [[Mark Verheiden]] <ref name="verhblog">{{cite_web|url=http://verheiden.blogspot.com/2008/04/battlestar-galactica-episode-415.html|title=Mark Verheiden's blog: Battlestar Galactica - Episode 415!|}}</ref>
| story=
| director= [[John Dahl]] <ref name="verhblog"/>
| production=415
| rating=
| US airdate=January 30, 2009 <ref>http://tv.ign.com/articles/920/920164p1.html</ref>
| CAN airdate=January 30, 2009
| UK airdate=February 3, 2009
| dvd=
| population=
| prev=[[A Disquiet Follows My Soul]]
| next=[[Blood on the Scales]]
| forumthread=2490
}}

==Overview==
''The opposition to the alliance with the rebel Cylons reaches its zenith, [[Felix Gaeta]] leads a mutiny aboard Galactica and frees [[Tom Zarek]] from prison.''

==Summary==
===Teaser===
* In Admiral [[William Adama|Adama's]] quarters, the admiral offers the entering [[Saul Tigh]] a cup of algae-ground coffee, which Tigh refuses. Tigh reports that civilian captains are refusing to allow the rebel [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] to refit their [[FTL|jump]] drives for longer range.

* As Tigh continues his report, [[Laura Roslin]] enters from the bathroom, dressed only in a bathrobe and carrying a book. Her smile seems to indicate her enjoyment of Tigh's mild shock at her candid appearance and its implications.

* Gathering his composure, Tigh continues. The [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet's]] attitude toward all Cylons ([[Final Five|Tigh included]]) would make it challenging for Tigh to solve the problem. Adama agrees.

* [[Felix Gaeta]] arrives at [[Tom Zarek]]'s cell in the [[brig]], accompanied by several [[marines]] and other crew. A crewman informs Gaeta that [[Narcho]] and Private Paley have secured a [[small arms locker]].
* Gaeta and Zarek talk about how to keep the [[Quorum of Twelve (RDM)|Quorum]] from reacting badly to their plans, particularly [[Lee Adama]]. Gaeta advises Zarek to push Representative Adama's buttons, since he's "good at that."

* In the admiral's quarters, Roslin discusses the Fleet's issues [[A Disquiet Follows My Soul|for the first time in days]]. She and Adama both agree that the alliance with the rebel Cylons, and general amnesty they were given is not working, and that Lee Adama may not be able to convince the quorum otherwise. Roslin has to force herself to stop talking about the Fleet's problems, and the two say goodbye with affectionate small talk about having dinner ready for Adama when he returns from his shift.

* Gaeta's team escorts Zarek to the [[hangar deck]]. When [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]] sees them, she yells out, pretending that her [[Raptor]] has a serious fuel leak. This effectively clears most of the deck's occupants out, but [[Jeanne]] lingers unseen in the upper gangway above the deck, and observes everything.

* As Racetrack tells Gaeta that she's disabled the Raptor's transponder, Deck Chief [[Peter Laird]] steps in, questioning the authorization for the Raptor's departure. When Laird is not dissuaded from calling [[CIC]] to verify the ship's use, Zarek quietly picks up a wrench and strikes Laird on the skull, killing him. Jeanne swiftly runs from the gangway, having witnessed the murder.

* When Gaeta reacts in shock to Zarek's action, the Vice President tells Gaeta not to hold on to some "operatic ideal" of how his "revolution" must be handled; any hesitation could jeopardize their plans.

===Act 1===

* In [[CIC]], [[Hoshi]] notes a ship launch that he can't authenticate in the flight log--and [[DRADIS]] does not show any [[IFF|transponder ID]]. Gaeta, taking his place at his station, stalls Hoshi, advising him to look at other logs from the flight deck.
* When Tigh tells Adama quietly that he has had had [[Nowart]] gather marines for further action to compel other civliian ships to comply, Adama warns that doing the same thing as was done with the ''[[Hitei Kan]]'' a few days prior would likely destroy the likelihood of anyone in the Fleet supporting the fragile Cylon alliance.
* Hoshi continues to try to verify the flying contact as Gaeta tries to stall.

* On ''[[Colonial One]]'' as Lee Adama tries to placate an agitated Quorum, Zarek returns, to everyone's shock.

* [[Diana Seelix]] meets with [[Samuel Anders]] in one of the officer's quarters. She slyly talks about her attraction to him as other crew sneak up, blindfold and savagely beat him.

* As Adama hands Private [[Jaffee]] a log to file, Hoshi reports of a fire near the ship's [[wireless]] antenna array. As Adama gives orders for damage control teams to handle the issue, Gaeta warns that the "fire" might not be an accident. Adama agrees and orders [[marines]] to accompany the DC teams.

* In another officer's quarters, [[Kara Thrace]] jokes with [[Brendan Costanza]] and his new [[Nicholas Tyrol|fatherhood]], commenting how her decision of his pilot nickname of "Hotdog" was an apt one. Constanza angrily replies that Thrace has "[[frak]]ked half the Fleet" and has nothing to show for her similar indiscretions. Thrace throws her bowl of food as Constanza leaves.
* A split second later evacuation alarms ring out. When Thrace steps out to ask Narcho why he, a pilot, is handling damage control, Narcho nastily spurns her senior rank: "Nobody even knows [[The Destiny|what you are]] anymore."
* When Thrace sees a mix of marines and other civilians heading in the opposite direction, she follows them on gut reaction.
* Thrace sees the people break into a small arms locker, arming themselves, with [[Charlie Connor]] issuing orders to both military and civilian personnel. She runs back to her quarters grabs her sidearm and ammo and calls CIC. Gaeta ignores her warning of the break-in. Thrace quickly deduces what's going on.

* On ''Colonial One'', Lee Adama also tries to call his father regarding Zarek's release, but Gaeta blocks Adama's attempt to reach the admiral by claiming that the admiral is busy. Gaeta also feigns ignorance about Zarek's release.
* Zarek steps in, telling Lee that the admiral released him because Zarek would only be a threat if Adama didn't recognize civilian authority. Adama believes otherwise, and leaves for ''Galactica''.

* Gaeta fakes a shipwide communications failure, including backup systems.
* Lee Adama arrives on the hangar deck from his Raptor and is immediately accosted by [[Skulls]] and several others, intent on killing him as Racetrack watches on. "Where are your precious Cylons now?" Connor says as a marine points a gun to Adama's head.
* A shot rings out, but not from the gun Adama stares into. Kara Thrace has shot the marine with the gun and orders Adama's release. When Skulls objects, Thrace doesn't hesitate a second to shoot Skulls in the shoulder. "I can do this all day," she warns, pulling out a second sidearm.
* As Adama runs out, Thrace follows, warning the rest, "Follow me. Please," so she could have a better excuse to shoot them as well.

* As [[Sharon Agathon]] feeds her [[Hera Agathon|daughter]], [[Karl Agathon]] gets his uniform on and warns Sharon to get Hera to daycare.
* Just then, the hatchway on their quarters is being jostled. Someone is trying to get in, and soon succeeds: an angry mob, led by [[Gage]], a former ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' crewman who remembers Agathon's role in the accidental death of [[Alistair Thorne]].
* Gage gloats that he plans on raping Sharon Agathon later as marines beat Helo into unconsciousness.

===Act 2===

* Thrace and Lee Adama seal themselves in a dry storage locker, reviewing what's happened. "Semper frakkin' fi," Thrace hisses after checking a phone, discovering it dead. Adama is astonished how people he's trusted have turned mutinous. He realizes the hangar deck was only the beachhead to a ship-wide takeover of the ship.
* Thrace passionately kisses Lee and tells him she hasn't felt this alive in weeks. They leave to work out what to do, gather people who will help. They try to make their way to [[CIC]]. As they move through the corridors of the ship, they hear gunfire and screams in the distance.
* They pass by several unidentified bodies as well as groups of huddled civilians trying to stay out of the crossfire. A marine pursues a group of armed civilians and exchanges gunfire with them. The duo encounter an unidentified crewman with a pistol who yields to them, suggesting that he is an ally, then continues on.
* CIC is in confusion as Gaeta continues to throw false report after report, keeping Tigh and the admiral off-base.
* The Agathons are thrown in the Cylon brig along with [[Caprica-Six]] and [[Samuel Anders]]. Caprica-Six warns that this is a start to eradicating the Cylons, especially their children. Athena reassures her that they'll be kept alive for now as bargaining chips.
* As Jaffee returns to report that the array's damage was faked, Gaeta initiates the final phase of the takeover, calling in several marines who are part of the mutiny, who encircle Adama and the startled CIC staff. A handful of marines who are not involved remain in the room as well. When one of Gaeta's marines signals as though he is about to shoot the Admiral, Jaffee takes the bullet for him, receiving a fatal wound in the process.
* A firefight ensues, and several marines are killed, including those who are not involved in the mutiny. Gaeta orders his men to cease fire, then orders Adama and his staff to stand down, which the admiral reluctantly agrees to do, despite Tigh's anger.
* Gaeta tells Adama that he is removing him from command of ''Galactica'' on the charge of treason.
* Adama accuses Gaeta of betraying his oath and uniform, while Gaeta retorts that the admiral has done that himself by allying with the Cylons.
* Adama angrily warns that, unlike in times past, there will be no forgiveness or amnesty for this takeover.
* Gaeta orders the marines to arrest Adama, Tigh, and the senior staff and to place them in a holding cell.

===Act 3===

* Kara Thrace and Lee Adama make it to the admiral's quarters, finding Laura Roslin there, telling her of the uprising, the communications blackout and that Zarek is in control on ''Colonial One.''
* Roslin has had enough; she puts on her coat and leads them all out, knowing of one way to get a message out over wireless.

* Gaeta, now commanding CIC, orders [[Redwing]] and his marine team to secure the engine room. Specialist Gage now sits in Gaeta's old station.

* Surrounded by [[Cult of Baltar|his followers]], [[Gaius Baltar]] wishes his group well as he prepares to leave, believing that the uprising will come to get him as well. [[Galen Tyrol]] confirms Jeanne's fears to Baltar.
* As Roslin, Thrace and Lee Adama arrive, Tyrol briefs them. Using secured wireless handhelds, Tyrol has learned that the admiral is in custody. He tells him that he's in control of an airlock that could be used to get Adama off the ship. When Lee asks why Tyrol is doing this, Tyrol tells him that the "[[The Old Man|old man]]" deserves a better fate.

* Tigh and Adama begin speaking to their two marine escorts. Nowart and Maldonaldo. Adama challenges Nowart to shoot him and questions whether Nowart has "got a pair." The distraction works. Tigh and Adama manage to turn the tables, Adama shooting Maldonado and taking Nowart hostage.

* Roslin and Baltar talk. She knows that Baltar's pirate wireless transmitter that he's used to communicate to his followers throughout the Fleet could be used to warn others in the Fleet as well.

* Adama and Tigh watch Connor give orders to other mutineers. Nowart tells them that he was ordered to take them all to the brig. They head there.

* CIC communications are being besieged by confused voices from other Fleet captains as Laura Roslin's voice begins to talk to the Fleet, telling them all, including the Quorum, of the uprising, pleading all to follow the rightful authorities. Gage is unable to stop the pirate signal until Gaeta gets to the station to jam it. But now the Fleet's comm chatter worsens, asking for more information from Roslin and what is happening on the battlestar.

* Lee and Thrace meet up with Adama and Tigh in the brig. Thrace angrily reacts to Nowart's presence as Adama tells him to leave. Thrace shoots at Nowart's way, warning the admiral that they are not his men anymore.

===Act 4===

* In the secondary storage airlock, Roslin and Baltar talk about Gaeta and his duplicitous nature.
* As Adama and team make their way there, Baltar takes a moment to try to get Gaeta to stop his takeover. He reminds him of their failings on [[New Caprica]], suggesting that Gaeta was complicit with the Cylon occupation. Gaeta closes the channel.
* A Raptor is heading towards ''Galactica'' from the Cylon [[Basestar (RDM)|baseship]], but Gaeta realizes the craft isn't heading for the hangar deck.

* The Raptor docks in the bay, piloted by an [[Number Eight|Eight]]. Roslin and Adama greet each other and kiss, causing Lee and Thrace to look at each other in surprise. Tyrol's men get word of marines heading their way.
* Baltar and Roslin board the Raptor, but the admiral orders Tyrol to get Lee and Thrace out and back to his secured area. He and Tigh choose to stay behind to ensure that the Raptor gets away.

* Gaeta orders the [[CAP]] to intercept and destroy the escaping Raptor as the episode ends.

* The marines, led by [[Aaron Kelly]], use welding torches to cut through the airlock locks and open the door slightly. Adama returns fire. "It's been an honor to serve with you, my friend," Adama tells Tigh, as marines throw a flash grenade through the doors.

== Analysis ==
*Quite a few people have sided with Zarek and Gaeta. These include pilots Narcho, Racetrack, Skulls, Redwing and Diana Seelix, marines Maldonaldo and Nowart, specialists Vireem and Gage, Lieutenant Aaron Kelly, and civilian Charlie Connor. In this episode, Maldonaldo is killed by Adama, Skulls is shot and wounded by Kara Thrace, and Nowart is captured and later released by Adama.
*The Adama/Roslin loyalists include Saul Tigh, Lee Adama, Kara Thrace, Galen Tyrol, Helo, Athena, and Hoshi. Gaius Baltar has also sided with Roslin out of self-preservation. By the end of the episode, the only known characters on ''Galactica'' capable of retaking the ship are Lee Adama, Kara Thrace, and Galen Tyrol. Roslin and Baltar have fled ''Galactica'', Admiral Adama and Saul Tigh are cornered, and Helo, Athena and Hoshi were captured before they even knew what was happening.
*The mutiny seems to have revitalized Kara Thrace and Laura Roslin. Thrace is the first one to organize any form of resistance against the mutineers. Roslin has openly addressed the Fleet for the first time since the discovery of Earth.
*The mutiny has given Kara Thrace a purpose in life as well as an outlet to channel her inner demons. She throws herself into battle without hesitation or regard for her own safety. She has also become much colder as evidenced by her attempts to gun down an unarmed Nowart.
*Despite forming a partnership to overthrow Adama, Zarek and Gaeta clearly have differing ideas of how to go about dealing with their opponents. The brutal killing of Laird is but one example of how Zarek is willing to go to much more extreme lengths than Gaeta, who seems to want the coup to succeed without excessive bloodshed. Zarek also lets slip that he disapproves of Gaeta arresting the senior staff of ''Galactica'' rather than just executing them. It remains to be seen how far this rift will widen.
*Gaeta appears to want the removal of Adama without recourse to too much violence, as shown by his attempt to stop the gunfire in CIC and his refusal to execute Adama and the senior staff on the spot. Nevertheless Gaeta has clearly mentally and morally committed himself to the mutiny to the point where he eventually orders the shooting down of the Raptor carrying Roslin to the basetar (although he does not know who is aboard).
*It does not seem essential in the end for Tigh and Adama to stay in the storage bay while the marines break down the door, as the Raptor is clear before the marines make it through. It is possible that Adama would have remained anyway, refusing to abandon his ship.
* Adama's final words to his XO show how he still holds Saul Tigh in high regard as his friend, regardless of his revealed Cylon nature.
*Lee Adama's sharp comments to Tigh shows the hard line towards the Cylons still held by the younger Adama, which has been displayed in earlier episodes such as "[[A Measure of Salvation]]" when he proposed a genocidal biological attack on the Cylons. Despite this Lee tempers his feelings with his pragmatic attitude to the Cylon alliance alongside his loyalty to Roslin and his father, noting that it is all they have left to survive.

== Questions ==
*What will happen to Adama and Tigh?
*Where are Kara Thrace, Lee Adama, and Galen Tyrol heading off to?
*How much impact has Roslin's speech had on the Fleet?
*Will Zarek get the rest of the Fleet to fall in line?
*Just how far is Gaeta willing to go to rid the Fleet of the Cylons?
*How will the rebel Cylons react to the uprising?
*Will Roslin enlist the aid of the rebel Cylons to bring down Zarek?
*Where do other crew members such as Hot Dog and Doc Cottle stand?
*Were Gaeta's men actually planning to execute Lee Adama?
*What are Racetrack and Skulls' personal motivations for joining Gaeta?
*How much of ''Galactica'' has Gaeta taken control of?
*Where did Nowart flee to?
*Will any of the mutineers switch sides? What about the loyalists?
*What other loyalists besides Lee Adama and Kara Thrace remain at large on ''Galactica''?
*Will Skulls survive his injuries?

== Official Statements ==

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

== Guest Stars ==
* [[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]]
* [[Brad Dryborough]] as Lieutenant [[Louis Hoshi]]
* [[Sebastian Spence]] as Lieutenant [[Noel Allison|Noel "Narcho" Allison]]
* [[Bodie Olmos]] as Lieutenant [[Brendan Costanza|Brendan "Hot Dog" Costanza]]
* [[Leah Cairns]] as Lieutenant [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
* [[Colin Lawrence]] as Lieutenant [[Hamish McCall|Hamish "Skulls" McCall]]
* [[Jennifer Halley]] as Ensign [[Diana Seelix|Diana "Harball" Seelix]]
* [[Ty Olsson]] as Lieutenant [[Aaron Kelly]]
* [[Vincent Gale]] as Chief [[Peter Laird]]
* [[Colin Corrigan]] as Sergeant [[Allan Nowart]]
* [[Craig Veroni]] as Sergeant [[Maldonaldo]]
* [[Michael Leisen]] as Private [[Stewart Jaffee]]
* [[Derek Delost]] as Specialist [[Vireem]]
* [[Mike Dopud]] as Specialist [[Gage]]
* [[Ryan Robbins]] as [[Charlie Connor]]
* [[Alexandra Thomas]] as [[Hera Agathon]]
* [[Keegan Connor Tracy]] as [[Jeanne]]
* [[Lara Gilchrist]] as [[Paulla Schaffer]]
* [[Andrew McIlroy]] as [[Jacob Cantrell]]
* [[Marilyn Norry]] as [[Reza Chronides]]
* [[Judith Maxie]] as [[Unnamed civilians in the Fleet (RDM)#Picon Delegate|Picon Delegate]]
* [[Iris Paluly]] as [[Unnamed civilians in the Fleet (RDM)#Tauron Delegate|Tauron Delegate]] (credited as "Speaking Delegate #2)
* [[Veena Sood]] as [[Unnamed civilians in the Fleet (RDM)#Quorum Delegate|Quorum Delegate]]

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 4)}}

[[Category:Episodes written by Mark Verheiden]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Sometimes a Great Notion/Archive 1

2009-01-18T07:03:49Z

Capedia: /* Episode Title */

{{newsection link}}

== Half-Season ==

Are we sure that Sometimes a Great Notion will be aired before the midseason break? I've seen the first half-season referred to as consisting of ten episodes. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
: It's not on the SFC schedule, so I've removed it. Someone must've been overzealous in their addition of the airdates. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 03:35, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

== Writers ==

In the podcast for Revelations, RDM states that David Weddle and Bradley Thompson will be writing this episode. I though I should bring it up here rather than add it to the article as I'm a relatively new member here, and am still unfamiliar with the editing process.[[User:Pentagonal Deception|Pentagonal Deception]] 23:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
: That's all right, Pentagonal. Feel free to [[BW:BOLD|be bold]] take it upon yourself to add it, as long as it's [[BW:CJ|cited]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 04:27, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
::Thanks for the encouragement, but it wasn't so much that I was apprehensive to edit the page, but more that i'm not quite sure how. I really haven't taken the time to learn how to use the editing software, (which is something I'm planning on doing shortly) so i thought it best to bring it up here and have someone willing and able add it.[[User:Pentagonal Deception|Pentagonal Deception]] 19:34, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
:::I added it. You can see the difference [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Sometimes_a_Great_Notion&diff=165728&oldid=164802 here]. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:08, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Many thanks.[[User:Pentagonal Deception|Pentagonal Deception]] 19:34, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

== Episode Title ==

''The title of the episode comes from the blues song "Goodnight, Irene," in which the singer contemplates suicide: "Sometimes I get a great notion / to jump in the river and drown."'' Is this a fact? There's no citation. It's also the title of a song by John Mellencamp. [[User:Genji2000|Genji2000]] 17:58, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
:And, though I don't know if it has to do with anything, the first line of the Mellencamp song, "Never give an inch," is a reference to ''Sometimes a Great Notion'', a novel by Ken Kesey. [[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 07:03, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Sometimes a Great Notion

2009-01-18T06:51:38Z

Capedia:

{{Episode Data
| image=Sometimes A Great Notion Promo 026.JPG
| title= Sometimes a Great Notion
| season= 4
| episode=11
| forumthread=2307
| extra='''Season 4.5 Premiere'''
| guests=
| writer=[[David Weddle]] [[Bradley Thompson]] <ref>Mentioned by Ron Moore in the [[Podcast:Revelation|podcast]] for "[[Revelations]]".</ref>
| story=
| director= [[Michael Nankin]] <ref name="brad">{{oldlink|title=Battlestar Wiki:Official Communiques|oldid=149966|text=Confirmed}} by [[Bradley Thompson]]</ref>
| production=413
| rating=
| US airdate=January 16, 2009 <ref>http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?category=2&id=61270</ref>
| CAN airdate=January 16, 2009 <ref>http://www.spacecast.com/bsg/</ref>
| UK airdate=January 20, 2009 <ref>TV guide in ScifiNow Magazine and Sky Magazine.</ref>
| dvd=
| population=
| prev=[[The Face of the Enemy]]
| next=[[A Disquiet Follows My Soul]]
}}

== Overview ==
[[Kara Thrace]] learns that the dire predictions of the Cylon [[Hybrid]] might be correct, and a devastating discovery plunges the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] into chaos and despair.''<ref>Episode description was unintentionally accessible on scifi.com until recently. Descriptions were noted on other websites before being removed, and editor confirmed them several days ago before removal from SciFi.com. </ref>

== Summary ==

=== Teaser ===

=== Act 1 ===

=== Act 2 ===

=== Act 3 ===

=== Act 4 ===

== Notes ==

* [[Katee Sackhoff]] noted that this episode could have served as the series finale had the [[WGA strike]] gone longer.<ref name="roadrunner">{{cite_web|url=http://roadrunnerdm.livejournal.com/84288.html|title=Roadrunner - Newsdump from Burbank convention|date=19 November 2007|accessdate=20 November 2007|last=|first=|format=|language=}}</ref> However, the strike ended with sufficient time for production to resume; the previous episode was aired as the mid-season finale, with this episode airing in the first quarter of 2009.
* This episode will have scenes between [[Kara Thrace]] and [[Leoben Conoy]] set in a forest, which (according to [[Jamie Bamber]]) is set on [[Earth (RDM)|Earth]].<ref name="roadrunner"/>
* The scenes were among the last shot and were shot during the crew's shut down party due to the [[WGA strike|2008 Writers Strike]], so Sackhoff was unable to attend.<ref name="roadrunner"/>
*The title of the episode comes from the blues song "[[w:Goodnight, Irene|Goodnight, Irene]]", in which the singer contemplates suicide: "Sometimes I get a great notion / to jump in the river and drown." ''Sometimes A Great Notion'' is also the title of a [[w:Sometimes a Great Notion (novel)|novel]] by Ken Kesey and a [[w:Sometimes a Great Notion (film)|film adaptation]] of the same name.
*Based on the [[YouWillKnowTheTruth]] viral site, the final clue will be revealed on the same day this episode airs.
*The last Cylon is finally revealed in a vision Colonel Tigh has of the past: its Ellen Tigh, his wife.

== Analysis ==

== Questions ==

== Official Statements ==

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

Saul Tigh: Ellen- You're the Fifth !

== Guest Stars ==

* [[Callum Keith Rennie]] as [[Leoben Conoy]]<ref name="roadrunner"/>

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 4)}}

[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Nankin]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Bradley Thompson]]
[[Category:Episodes written by David Weddle]]

The Top 10 Things You Need to Know

2009-01-16T01:39:16Z

Capedia: Redirecting to Battlestar Galactica: The Top 10 Things You Need to Know

#REDIRECT [[Battlestar Galactica: The Top 10 Things You Need to Know]]

Talk:Final Five/Archive 1

2009-01-16T01:05:20Z

Capedia: /* Boomer's count of Cylons in fleet */ new section

== Promo Image ==

I took the image into photoshop (I do minor image tweaking at my job), did everything I could to enhance it, just for fun. And I'd like to make a grandiose speculation that the Five look, well, slightly mutilated...or mutated. Botched Cylon experiments, torutred and insane minds!!! I don't know, That one "fellow's" hand reaching to Three looks awefully stumpy...of course it could always be some foreshortening.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:57, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Yup, totally convinced they are mutilated and grotesque, their faces, albiet shrouded are just a little odd and produce strange shadow tones.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 11:17, 3 January 2007 (CST)

:It is also possible that the show is intentionally masquerading their faces to allow the show to cast anyone in these roles at a later time, rather than fixing the faces of the characters right away. In any case, any interpretations of these promo shots are too speculative to make a valid assessment. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:38, 3 January 2007 (CST)

We should get rid of the main picture - we don't know for sure that they are in fact the Final Five, they may be simply a hallucation on the part of D'eanna when she resurrects/is boxed.
Or perhaps the five temple priests who are not Cylons. Point is, we don't know --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 06:26, 10 January 2007 (CST)
:Writer's often portray canon information through a character, in this case D'Anna. That is the same vision she always has when she dies, we've already seen a part of the scene on "Hero", and it's what she's been seeing again and again. Her sketches and such are merely her representations of what she saw, this picture is what she actually saw. Anyways, even if you choose to not believe D'Anna, and even if you doubt the only logical explanation, I think David Eick confirmed that it's them she sees on a EW article. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:53, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== ID ==

Looking at the high resolution picture, I can identify most of the actors in these robes. Whether they actually are the Final Five Cylons or whether this is just a dream sequence and they grabbed whoever was convenient is not clear. From the left to the right:

# Aaron Douglas, better known as Chief Tyrol. The stature and facial features are a perfect match.
# Tahmoh Penikett, better known as Helo. This isn't as certain, but the lower face and stature both match.
# Unidentified female
# Unidentified female
# The big, bald Asian pilot who's always in the rec room.

[[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 21:32, 9 January 2007 (CST)

No two cylons can have a child which makes Tahmoh Penikett wrong. Don't know about the others, though the "Chief" guy is certainly too short --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 06:21, 10 January 2007 (CST)

:Major kudos if you are correct, cause I cartainly can't see it myself :P -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 06:27, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::They're just stand-ins, they don't release promo pics at random, and they wouldn't reveal anyone in such a way when having a chance to do it on screen. But as said before, those faces are vague enough to be almost anyone. They might have similarities, but a lot of people in the world can have similar features without looking the same. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:32, 10 January 2007 (CST)

::The thing of it is, is; we're all going to see what we want in them untill we actually see them. I'm pretty sure I'm not right (above comment) and fairly sure when they did these Promo pics and ambiguous #3 "in the hinterlands of Cylon death land" dreams, that they wouldn't have cast definite actors...it's a pretty significant choice to make of who should play the roles...so, stick some people in robes and shrouds to stand in and any old person will do for the snippets, clips, dream scenes and teaser tastys. we won't know 'till we know--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:42, 12 January 2007 (CST)

:Personally I think the show would be smart to not put all of their eggs in one basket on this whole final five thing. At least one of the five should be someone we've never seen, one should be someone who is alive and in the fleet and at least one should be someone who was in the fleet that has been dead for a while. Making all of the five sleepers who are in the fleet or making them all dead characters or all new characters wouldn't be very cool. Making it a balance between the three would be nice. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 19 January 2007.

I hate to repeat what's been stated, but I think Philwelch is looking way too hard because I see no one - and I mean ''no one'' familar in that image. Not even a vague similarity. I'm certain they're just stand-ins, but I find it odd that they'd release an image that shows so much, but also expect us not to see a match when the five are revealed. You'd figure they'd put more effort in hiding the faces, just to cover the bases. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:43, 22 January 2007 (CST)

== Reason for Locking ==

I don't want the server to flood or 4k people trying to edit this page. Take your time and finsh everything else first. Unprotect this at Midnight. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:21, 21 January 2007 (CST)

== Interpretation question ==

After thinking about this, there are only two individuals that believe that what D'anna/Three has seen is actually images of the final five Cylons: herself, and Baltar. The Colonials scripture know that the Temple of Five was human-built, long before the Cylons existed, and was related to five priests who may have worshiped someone different from the Lords of Kobol. There's plenty of inference (with Kara Thrace, Leoben, [[Dodona Selloi]], and the Threes) that there is a connection between the Lords of Kobol and the Cylon God. My problem is that, while the notion that the final five Cylons has been established, there isn't information ''between'' the characters that verifies that what Three has seen are actual Cylon or human figures.

For that reason, I am going to rewrite this article with a level of neutrality that does not support only Three's belief since there is Colonial connections that exist. The final five represent five human priestly people (blessed, cursed or otherwise cited) or five Cylons (boxed, or related somehow to the origin of the new Cylon, which, after "Rapture," is not clear-cut. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:31, 27 January 2007 (CST)
:Well....RDM called them "The Final Five" in his podcast...--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 10:03, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::The podcast doesn't elaborate on their nature, and Ron has twisted the truth before to keep the storyline a mystery until aired. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:06, 27 January 2007 (CST)

==Three wasn't the Only One==
I think we should also mention that Number Three wasn't the only Cylon to believe they were the Final Five. The Cavils believed it well enough to try to shoot her and even box her. So I think we should at least mention that they too believed Three was seeing the Final Five, enough to essentially eliminate 1/3 of their known female population. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:00, 27 January 2007 (CST)

The light that shines down as the Nova goes is real, and D'anna starts bleeding and dies for no other apparent reason. If it's an illusion in her mind, these things don't match.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 21:22, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:It didn't seem like an illusion, but rather a simple isolate hologram, which wouldn't be surprising since that's the kind of tech these things ususally have in them. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:35, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::The podcast supports the assumption that Three saw the actual Final Five, although I don't think it's explicitly stated. As for the device in the temple, there's quite a few possible explanations and I doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer about which one is correct. The device could've triggered both Three's death and the visions directly, the device could've triggered Three's death, resulting in a vision just like her previous deaths did or the device could've triggered the visions, resulting in Three's death due to some hypothetical built-in failsafe in Three. Each of those three possibilities also has a number of explanations (for example, if the device caused the visions, it may have been a technological substitute for [[chamalla]], it may have been designed to unlock repressed memories or in may have been programmed with the images of the Final Five at any time in the past 4000 years). -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:17, 2 February 2007 (CST)
::: It seems that [[projection]] would be a likely technology behind a vision seen only by here. Why a 4,000 year old temple would be able to do that is nor more a mystery than why it would be able to insert a vision any other way. Further reflection shows this image to possibly be different from the image in the Temple of Athena, which was more holodeck like, and seen by all.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:47, 2 February 2007 (CST)

==Warning - possibly big spoiler below==
I was watching Final Five photo, when I noticed face similarity to one of main characters face. I made some photo mainpulating, and results is below.

[http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9007/finalfivespoilerzq0.png] <-- POSSIBLE HEAVY SPOILER

It gives me around 60-70% sure, that this char is one of Final Five. Yet there are two other things - first - it's possible, that director didn't thought of that, and put this actor there to "fill the gap".

Second - as I've searched through characteristic of this one, I haven't even found slight connections to Cylon, and it would mess with storyline pretty badly.

What do you think about that? --[[User:XLII|XLII]] 16:41, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Again, don't take that picture too literally. It did not actually appear in the episode after all, and they chose not to show the faces in detail at the end. We don't know if it was actually shot that way at all and just cut, or if they are just stand-ins for a test shot or something. In any case, since we don't see the five in the episode, we can't draw any conclusions --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:58, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Also remember how much Leoben likes mixing truth and lies... "Adama is a Cylon." [[User:Wynler|Wynler]] 11:12, 29 January 2007 (CST)
::XLII your idea was a good one, but there's a flaw in your comparison. As you darken the image of the actor, that face overtakes the face of the Final Five. The jawlines match up, which makes it look like it's the same person, but watch the chin and the upper lip (and the 5 o'clock shadow) in pics 1&2 and 4&5. They're different. --[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 19:44, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Even if you forget for a moment that the people in the promo picture are just stand-ins Lee Adama is most defintly '''not''' a Cylon anyway we already worked that out. Because he is the son of someone else who is most definitly not a cylon and the Cylons are not copies of already existing people. See [[Humanoid Cylon speculation]] and [[Characters eliminated from suspicion]] --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
::::Not to mention that Lee has his fat makeup on there. Even if the images matched up, it wouldn't be a true likeness of Lee/Jamie Bamber.--[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 18:31, 2 February 2007 (CST)

What if the final five aren't cylons at all, but in fact are part of the priesthood. The whole question "what defines a Cylon" opened by the writers had me thinking... the final five aren't "final" they are the "first" five. They are neither Cylon, nor human and possibly are some related faction to the 13th tribe whom were left behind to fulfull and manipulate things behind the scenes. I do not like the idea of certain main characters being cylons and I believe that this will be the only way to mitigate that unplesant "revelation". I've been pushing hard on the crossroads' talk pages that the final five aren't necessarily cylons and that Tigh certainly is not. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 22:23, 24 March 2007 (CDT)
:I agree with the idea that they are NOT Cylons but for different reasons. The first problem is the aging/immortality issue since it has been established that the current batch of cylons will live forever (as long as they are not boxed and are in range of a Ressurection Ship or the Cylon Homeworld). My thought is that the main characters who think they are cylons are NOT but rather descendants of the one or more copies of one or more of the models of the Final Five (thus fufulling RDM's promise of "bluring the line between Human and Cylon"). But we will soon see... [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 22:30, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Agreed, I actually was trying to clarify that. I think the final five are actually priests, five priests who continue the tradition of prophecies. Remember, Tyrol's father was a priest AND his mom was an Oracle. HE found the Eye. And finally, and this bugs me, people seem to ignore or overlook the fact that the Cylon Biers had stepped into the Eye's chamber when it was meant for a HUMAN to. SHE saw the final five and had explained that she had made a mistake and apologized. Now... I assume those five priests are the "final five" so-called cylons. But why am I the only person who gets that the other seven models do not KNOW who or WHAT the final five truly are? --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 23:02, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

I'd actually go with the idea that they are not the FINAL Five, but the FIRST Five. I think the Enemy Seven are the Children of the Cylon group. They don't know about the first 5 also, they don't know who programmed them.--[[User:James968|James968]] 04:51, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

== D'Anna's Apology ==

Right now this article lists Saul Tigh as being the leading suspect of who D'Anna saw, but I'm not sure if this information should really be included; it's complete speculation on one hand, and on the other... I'm not sure that it really holds merit. Certainly Tigh has endured the most of all the final five at the hands of the Cylon, but D'Anna never really had much involvement with him; on the other hand, she attacked and nearly killed Anders in Downloaded. He would seem to me a more likely suspect of who she saw and felt compelled to apologize to. At the very least, my speculation is no more off bat then the theory that it's Tigh, and that really calls for some change here. [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 03:59, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

:I think she's talking to Anders, as they have had a [[Downloaded|face-to-face conflict with eachother before]]. She was pretty abusive to him in that episode, and if she saw that he wasn't Human, but a member of the [[Final Five]], she would probably be pretty apologetic....[[User:Zach dax|Zach dax]] 23:51, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
::So much to apologize for. Tigh's eye (though that seemed a Cavil project). Putting Tyrol's wife on a death list. Beating up Anders. Outside, her centurions are shooting at Anders and Tyrol, and shot and seriously injured Anders' wife. Only Foster brings nothing to mind. However, I don't think it was any of them, and while we can list reasons like the ones I cite, the line "I had no idea" suggests it is somebody bigger. Because she certainly would have had an idea that the F5 were infiltrating the fleet, where else would they be, after all? But no, we can't list who the apology is to quite yet, and since she started a war that killed everybody's families and friends, it's hard to find somebody she could not apologize to.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:18, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

:::I think it was pretty obviously Anders, per Zach's comment and my own at [[Talk:Rapture#Deanna Recognition]]. One of the Five's was responsible for Tigh's eye, anyway. Can we word this more definitively now? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

::::That's one interpretation... Frankly, once the Final Cylon is revealed, we'd probably have a better idea on who she apologized to. However, I do agree with both Peter and Zach based on the available evidence. She did assault and try to kill Anders on Caprica, and would've succeeded had D'Anna not had her head smashed in with a rock. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 06:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

== D'Anna's sketches ==
The two on the right are, in retrospect, clearly Tigh and Anders. I'm not sure about the other ones. The one on the far left is vague enough to be anyone with long hair, or anyone with short hair wearing a hood, and the one in the middle is vague enough to be any woman with a slim face, narrow jawline and straight, shoulder length or longer hair. The one to the near left depicts someone with dark hair and a widow's peak, however no major character other than [[Number Five]] meets those criteria, however they are rough sketches based on blurry memories, so it could be a distorted portrait of Tyrol, Baltar or Roslin. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:12, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:I dunno, but SkyOne HD already aired this episode, so if anyone has a higher resolution cap of the sketches then it would greatly help the article I think, if at least visually. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:58, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

== Ironies and references ==

The revelation of the identities Fantastic Four (as I like to call them) brought up some interesting ironies. I thought I'd list them here for entertainment purposes, along with other early references to their Cylonness:
* On several occasions throughout the show, [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] plays with the idea of committing suicide. Not only is this considered a mortal sin by the Significant Seven, it also won't solve his problems, as he'll just be resurrected.
* In "[[33]]", Tigh gives [[William Adama|Adama]] his 10 minutes rest, because Adama is more tired. Interestingly, [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] also suffered less from the sleep-depriving conditions than anyone else.
* In "[[Litmus]]", [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] is interrogated for conspiracy with a Cylon.
* In the episodes "[[Scattered]]" through "[[The Farm]]", a Cylon has been in command of the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]].
* In "[[Fragged]]", Tyrol leads an attack on five Cylon [[Centurion]]s
* [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] has been [[Caprica Resistance|fighting the Significant Seven]] ever since the [[Fall of the Colonies]].
** When Anders' group ambushes [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] and [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], Anders assumes they are Cylons, while he's a Cylon himself.
* In "[[Resistance]]", Tigh accuses Tyrol of being a Cylon. Not only is Tigh right, he is also a Cylon himself.
* After his release, Tyrol talks about how he saw [[Sharon Valerii]] slowly realizing her Cylon identity, not knowing the same will happen to him (although his realization is much faster).
* In "[[Home, Part II]]", Adama orders Tyrol to guard fellow Cylon [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]], [[Tom Zarek|Zarek]] and Helo.
* In "[[Final Cut]]", [[Number Three|D'Anna Biers]] tries to implicate Tigh in the [[Gideon]] incident, not knowing he's a Cylon just like her.
* In "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", Tyrol builds a stealth craft that successfully avoids Cylon DRADIS.
* In "[[The Captain's Hand]]", [[Tory Foster|Tory]] is very closely involved in the plot to hide [[Hera]], who is actively searched for by the Seven and connected to the [[final five]] on some occasions.
* In "[[Downloaded]]", a Three threatens to kill Anders, not knowing he's a Cylon as well.
* In "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]", Tyrol is the first to identify [[Cavil]] as a Cylon.
* Tigh, Tyrol and Anders were the three leading figures of the [[New Caprica Resistance]].
** They were also members of [[The Circle]] that [[Collaborators|executed]] collaborators after the Second Exodus.
** Tory also helped the resistance by organizing evacuation exercises disguised as fire drills.
* In "[[Hero]]", Tigh is the one to realize Bulldog was manipulated by the Cylons to kill Adama.
* In "[[Rapture]]", when Three finds the Temple in order to see the final five, two of them (Tyrol and Anders) are just outside (credit to someone else on this Wiki).
* In "[[A Day in the Life]]", Tyrol suffers far less from the explosive decompression than [[Cally Tyrol|Cally]] does.
* In "[[Dirty Hands]]", Tory only suffers a minor injury when a [[Raptor]] crashes into ''[[Colonial One]]'' close to her.
* In the same episode, Tyrol points out to [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]] that choice sets them apart from the Cylons.
* The irony of ironies occurs in "[[Crossroads, Part II]]": a Cylon (Tigh) orders three fellow Cylons (Anders, Tory and Tyrol) to help defend the ship from attacking Cylons.
:Great list. I noted the temple because this is around the first point that these are deliberate ironies. RDM has admitted he didn't pick who would be the final 5 until during this season, so the ironies prior to the exodus are probably unintentional. (Also, just like rain on your wedding day, not all these are ironies :-) For example, Tyrol's decompression is much more clearly a plain-old clue, it was in his clue list. We don't know if the F5 were picked during [[Collaborators]] but that is also an interesting irony if they were.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:00, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
::I know they're not all ironies (that's why this section is titled "Ironies ''and references''"), and they can't all have been intentional. I just suddenly realized the one in "Resistance" (still one of my favorites in this list), and built the rest of the list around it. It's actually funny to see how many of these ironies/references can be found in the first two seasons. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 15:58, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

=="What about Ellen?"==
I think the line can be interpreted in ways other than how it was interpreted in this page. I for one thought he was more likely questioning whether she (along with all the other things he mentioned) were real. After all, he had just learned he was a Cylon, which meant something about his life was different.

This is what I thought anywyas, and it makes a little more sense to me. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 04:09, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

:Yeah, we know that Ellen Tigh wasn't a false memory, but Saul Tigh has no way of knowing which parts of his life are false memories or some programmed delusion. I still think it's more likely that he was revisiting his regrets about her death or considering the possibility that Ellen may be a Cylon. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:43, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
::Was mostly just documenting the fact that they don't know yet about their being special Cylons, as revealed in the Podcast. I have edited the text to be more a reporting of facts than a speculation of his motives.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 16:22, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Perfect! Thanks :) .--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:59, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

::I believe [[Ellen Tigh]] is a [[Cylon]]. While there is evidence she has a sister in [[Valley of Darkness]], she fits being a Cylon and she is a female that can fit the profile. [[Number Three]] may have apoligized for her being killed by Tigh.--[[User:CoreyDanian|CoreyDanian]] 20.19, 2 July 2007

== Proper Noun or not? ==

I think we need some kind of standard here. Either it's "Final Five" or "Final five", but not both. Same with "Significant Seven". Personally I could go either way, but I think most people tend to capitalize the numbers. That would be easier then. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:I'd go with Final Five. Shane can probably bot-edit once we've reached consensus on the capitalization. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 16:02, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::I agree, since they are sometimes referred only as "The Five" I think the second should be capitalized as well. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 21:17, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Yup, Final Five. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:23, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::::For consistency's sake, OK. Same for "Significant Seven" (although that is a production term and not an aired canonical one). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:47, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:As is stands the article is filled with simply "Five" or "Seven". I think this is very confusing because they can be confused with model numbers. I think they should either have the Final/Significant in front of them at all times, or be changed to lower case. Thoughts? -- [[User:Xlynx|Xlynx]] 11:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

== Possible Repercussions Against the Seven ==

Once the fourth seasons of Galactica begins, I, for one, would be thrilled to see what sort of consequences would befall the Cavil models for their actions against Saul; particularly their torturing him mentally and physically.

This, of course, would be provided that whatever repressed memories/programming within them, that is Saul and the other three of five remaining, does not altogether supress the personalities we are familiar with.

And what of Sam regarding the Conoy models' mental torture of Starbuck on New Caprica? Will retribution or amnesty befall Conoy if such a plot or subplot were contemplated by the producers?

I could only imagine how Cally and Kara would react to discovering their spouses are two of the Final Five. I even wonder moreso how Bill (Admiral Adama) will react toward Saul's true race.

Granted, those last two paragraphs had little to do with the possible retribution or amnesty toward the known seven at the hands of Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders; but they are still possibilities worth contemplating.
- {{unsigned|Murrdawg 316}}
:Yeah, the Fantastic Four are in an awkward position. My personal prediction is that the Colonials will meet a Final Five fleet, sending a Tigh copy as a liaison (or a Tyrol/Anders/Tori copy for that matter). That Final Five fleet could appear pretty early: it could be the fleet that jumped into the Ionian System at the end of "[[Crossroads, Part II]]", or they could jump in and defend the Colonials. And we almost forgot to mention Starbuck: she'll have some explaining to do as well. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 07:59, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

== Further Flipping of the original Battlestar Galactica's Script ==

Okay, seeing as such changes in the redefined and more immensely popular version of Battlestar Galactica have occurred as (1) gender reversals of the original Boomer, Starbuck, Cain, and -- if I am not mistaken -- Number Six, (2) making Cain superior in rank to the elder Adama, and (3) making the Cylons self-aware AND humanoid right out of the gate. Wouldn't it also be logical to give Earth the possible advantage of not only being as advanced if not moreso than the Twelve Colonies of Kobol AND also made both peaceful and military resolutions to problems the Colonials had to learn the hard way with the Cylons where the creation of self-aware, replicated humanoids or androids of their own are concerned?

It would be fascinating to hope that Earth, like and yet unlike the Colonies, not only created artificial life, but acknowledged their sentience and right to exist as an equal and independent race either beside or separate from humans; thus being added contributors to the resolution of the Cylon/Colonial conflict as the series meets its eventual end.

Please let me know what you think.

--[[User:Murrdawg 316|Murrdawg 316]] 05:12, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

:Based on the episode events, there is some truth in your fiction. Ron uses the Original Series as a template, but has obviously grown away from most of the storylines that appeared there (and seriously "warps" what he does use). There is one premise that does permeate throughout the Re-imagined Series, whether the Cylons or humanity itself harass the Fleet: "We have seen the enemy, and they are us." Some [[Sacred Scrolls|elements of return and origin]] (a serious plotline of the show) have bigger complications, not only with [[Hera Agathon]] or the Five, but the [[The Destiny|mysterious destiny and return of Kara Thrace]] and the prophecies and involvement of the [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Lords of Kobol]]. -- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:00, 29 April 2007 (CDT) ([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contrib Skillz]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|Edit Skillz]])

:There are clues that Earth did not have a peaceful creation of its own AIs. The writings of Pythia who "wrote of the exile and rebirth of the human race" 3,600 years BCH are ambiguous, because they are written in the past tense (implying such an exodus in her past) but also treated as prophecies by the colonials for their future. There is not supposed to be any time travel in this show, but there is definitely a theme of repeated cycles of history. However, RDM refuses to answer questions about what Earth is like, though he has worked it out in his internal notes. All we actually have confirmed about Earth (as opposed to learn from colonial mythology) is that whoever took Starbuck brought her there, that its night sky was displayed in the [[Tomb of Athena]] and that it's real and not too far from the [[Ionian nebula]] on a Galactic scale.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:44, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

Guys i don't know about you but i would love to see a conflict resolution similar to Issac Asimovs "Foundation". In the first 2
books, 2 major conficts resolve peacefully yet surprisingly amazing!! [[User:Bbm4n|Bbm4n]] 15:46, 5 February 2008 (CST)

== S3 cliffhanger tag ==

Is the presence of this tag still justified (now that the Four Revealed section has been added)? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 07:13, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
:It would be cool to just edit it to "events are under scrutiny...". We no longer need to warn people about edit conflicts and such though. But we could also strike it entirely. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:18, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
::From my point of view, the tag used to mean the article was no longer correct and/or needed to be cleaned up in light of the [[Crossroads, Part II]] events. That issue has now been resolved. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 08:18, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
:::The tag (which I created) was primarily to stem the crisis of edit-conflicts, fanwanking, and the like, especially given how the revelations made everything we know almost wrong. It can be removed if the article is now up to date. However, we need to ensure that the [[Humanoid Cylon]] article is noted and how the Final Five contrast and compare, specifically noting how "fundamentally different" they are. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:51, 28 June 2007 (CDT)

== Mevenstar's edit ==

Moved from the article. Please discuss here:

: #1 The Jealous God, #2 Cylon God and #3 One Whose Name cannot be spoken all hint toward a RDM incarnation of Iblis, but as no metaphysical being has been shown yet to exist, nor any AI before the cylons introduced, it seems feasible each of these three descriptions may depict more than one Kobol Lord or the cylon god. There are judeo christian montehists that do not believe in speaking the name of their god Jahovah. The Jealous God can be a lucifer or hades like charcter that has set himself up as the Cylon God, The One whose name cannot be spoken can be a kobol lord that has assumed a Johavah like role in exile with the the thirteenth tribe, and the remaining Kobol Lords are in some way connected to the colonials as pantheon similar in form to Mt. Olympus. They may be real or imagined, metaphysical or AI...and all three groups, colonials, 13th tribe and cylons could be in effect worshipping the same being with radically different interpretaions as to the nature of that being, just like muslims, christains and jews.--[[User:Mevenstar|Mevenstar]] 10:27, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

== Resurrection and multiple copies ==
There's no conclusive evidence supporting multiple copies or resurrection for the Final Five, but there's no conclusive evidence refuting the possibility either. Is there an interview in which it's implied that they cannot resurrect or don't have additional copies? If not, I would prefer a more neutral statement about the lack of evidence either way. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:23, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
:Sometime in season 3([[Escape Velocity]]) is rumored that after the Significant Seven become aware that the Final Five(well, at least four) reside in the fleet, they propose to cease attacking them as it is unknown if these Cylons have the ability to resurrect. If they were to die, no where in the Colonial Fleet or Cylon Fleet can the Five, if even, resurrect... Of course, no one knows for sure. -- [[User:Veepz|Veepz]] 22:04, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
::Thanks for pointing it out, I'll add a cite and tweak the note. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:58, 27 July 2007 (CDT)
:::Great! :-) -- [[User:Veepz|Veepz]] 01:43, 27 July 2007 (CDT)

:My theory would be that they have the ability to download, but probably there are no spare bodies waiting for them (if there were, it would be very hard for the seven to not know about them). Question is, what happens if there's a res ship in range but no matching spare body? Is the consciousness frozen, effectively boxed, until a body is provided, or is it lost? [[User:Lilianne Blaze|Lilianne Blaze]] 13:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:: We know there's a delay between death and download, as seen in "Downloaded" or the New Caprica arc. Therefore one can assume that there is some sort of storage buffer for memories to reside in (temporary memory, a la RAM) until the consciousness can be saved to a permanent medium (the body/husk). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 15:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:::The 7 Cylons know almost nothing about the F5, in fact they have programming which limits how much they can even think about them. All they know is they don't have any other models in their resurrection facilities (now destroyed) so they would indeed wonder about whether they can resurrect. However, *that actually tells us only about the programmed ignorance of the S7, it does not reveal anything about the F5*. I've been taking to calling them the "original five" as that is a much more correct name, and helps avoid the confusion that comes from taking assumptions from the S7 and applying it to the original five. As to whether there are other copies, well we see animated copies in white robes in the visions. And somebody is out there doing stuff, so there are suggestions of other copies out there, but no proof as yet.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 19:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:::True. Therefore, based on real-world analogies, it would be logical to assume they can be stored in that buffer indefinitely as long as there is no major power failure aboard the res ship. Maybe they can even be backed up in a process similar to boxing (well, we now know un-boxing is possible, so technically boxing is a kind of backup). On the other hand I think I remember Star Trek teleporter buffers being able to store living beings only for a limited amount of time (which sounds pretty much bull^H^H^H^Hunrealistic if you ask me). So I guess we're stuck with waiting for official version. [[User:Lilianne Blaze|Lilianne Blaze]] 06:36, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

== Possible Cylon ploy ==

The whole notion of the final five being based on the two sketches may have more weight than the musical programming but a still a far cry from being reliable. I belive the "fantasitc four" or the "quartet" (hey it's music that drives them) were manipulated by some Cylon psychic or psychological tampering. I mean how is it that now the Cylons are able to follow Galactica? And how then does the non-ressurrectable final 5 come perilously close to being killed (Tyrol about 5 times), Anders (who knows how many times), Tigh (Abused and tortured by the other cylons)...

No I think the Cylons when they captured these at some point had implanted some tracking beacons on them. When Tigh thought the music was coming from the ship he was close, he probably thought there was a tracking device.

I admit I can't find a good explanation for the sketches. But 2 out of 4 of them are recognizeable. And because she was a CYLON, she was not meant to see the true faces of the final 5, maybe what she saw was a distortion and false information.

--[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 20:41, 31 January 2008 (CST)
\
: Sorry, what source do you have for them being 'non-ressurectable?" Or that the other seven know anything about them, other than the boxed #3? We have not seen that in the show, and what we have seen -- placing them in the temple of five and Kobol opera house -- marks them as thousands of years old, so if there is a ploy it is almost surely the other way around.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 18:02, 9 February 2008 (CST)

::Yeah, see the previous section, their ability to resurrect is uncertain. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:37, 14 February 2008 (CST)

:::Well, we do know that FF replacement bodies aren't lying around in a cupboard on the resurrection ships, else D'Anna wouldn't have had to go to all that trouble killing herself over and over. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 18:11, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

== Centurions ==
We know the Centurions have shot at members of the Final Five (or at least shot in their general direction), but have they ever actually ''hit'' one of the Final Five? In other words, is it possible that they can detect the Final Five, and are intentionally missing them? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 08:00, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
*Until the start of series 3 the ''writers'' hadn't even decided who the FF were, so anything before then is irrelevant. I don't think the FF were ever shot in S3, but that's probably more of a [[w:Character shield|Character Shield]] than anything else. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 11:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
::If a Centurion harmed one of the Final Five then I think it would be safe to assume that they can't recognize them. The absence of harm would be ambiguous, but it would leave the possibility of recognition open. Either way, I believe more details should be included. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 06:08, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

== When did the writers decide on the final Cylon's identity? ==
IIRC it was at some point during season 2, but I can't find the source for that claim. IMO the timeframe should be mentioned in the notes if we can find a source. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 06:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:I believe your answer will be found [[Humanoid Cylon speculation#Clues from Official Sources|here]]. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 14:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

::My understanding is that they've known who the Fifth is since late Season 1. They had an idea that Tyrol might be one from late Season 2 onwards, hence his weird dream in the Season 2 finale. I'm pretty sure they definitely decided Tyrol was going to be one when they had him discover the Temple of Five on the algae planet. Anders and Tory I think they decided on towards the end of Season 3. According to the recent Comi-Con panel, it was a toss-up between Tigh and Gaeta for the last one, and they didn't fully commit to Tigh until they started shooting the Season 3 finale.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 00:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

== Aaron Douglas spilling the beans ==
Aaron Douglas comes right out in an interview in this month's issue of SFX Magazine (#174) in the UK and explains the backstory of the Penultimate Four in some detail, including their relationship with Earth and the Twelve Colonies. It also shines a light on the history of the 13th Colony and why they left Kobol separately to the others. It's a pretty monumental spoiler, from a viable source (print interviews are valid, right?). Is this worth mentioning in the article? Or should we hold off in case Douglas was incorrect, actively spreading disinformation or his revelations may have been invalidated by later events (the interview took place before the filming of the finale, I believe)?

The spoilers essentially are:

{{spoiltext|That the 13th Tribe consisted of a race of artificial lifeforms who would be the ancient Kobolian equivalent of Cylons. Their relationship to the other 12 tribes on Kobol is not made clear. These Cylons left and settled on, "or made," Earth. Several decades ago, they destroyed themselves in a war and the four survivors made their way to the Twelve Colonies to find out more about the Cycle of Time and to investigate the self-destructive streak that humans have, and passed down to their creations. After infiltrating the Colonies, the P4 shut off their Cylon sides, programming them only to wake up if they were brought close to Earth again. It's tempting to add tons of extrapolation to this, but that's the essence of what he says. No mention is made of the Final Cylon, who it is or why they remain anonymous. No mention is made of a relationship between the P4 and the S7 other than that the S7 hold them in awe, although it could be extrapolated that the P4 were involved in the creation of the S7, or at least in the programming of the humanoid models if not the creation of the modern Cylons (or, in this case, the recreation of the original Cylons). There is also no comment on how the P4 just happened to survive the destruction of Earth, or how they ended up either in the Fleet or among the survivors on Caprica. There is also no information given on how the P4 have simultaneously survived for thousands of years - assuming they are the same as the priests who built the Temple of Five - yet Tigh has noticeably aged during his acquaintence with Adama. Douglas' only further comment was that the P4 do not have multiple copies. Interestingly, I heard a spoiler a while back that Tyrol starts receiving memories from a 'prior incarnation' in the last few episodes: perhaps the P4 don't have copies but they can download into new bodies? Maybe they can download into and take over human bodies, explaining why Tyrol and Anders remember their parents?}}

Anyway, much food for thought there. Just wanted to know if it's a good idea or within the wiki policy to be able to mention this anywhere? --[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 00:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

: Printed interviews are valid. We just need thorough referencing of what was said, however. Further, since these are considered spoilers, they do need to be encased in the proper tags. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 01:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

::Maybe they used to have other copies. Anyway, IMO the main articles this would be relevant to would be [[Final Five]], [[Humanoid Cylon]], [[Thirteenth Tribe (RDM)]] and [[Cylon History]]. It's also relevant to [[Humanoid Cylon speculation]]. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 06:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

== Boomer's count of Cylons in fleet ==

From the article:
<blockquote>The Boomer copy of Number Eight, interrogated by Baltar, declares there are eight Cylons in the Fleet. Given that these Seven do not interact (or are unwilling to interact) with the Five at the time, the number that Boomer gives is likely other copies of the Seven in disguise.</blockquote>
At least as likely, it seems to me, is that she was telling the truth when she said she didn't know, and the 8 was just a made up number to save Galen's life. [[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 01:05, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Caprica (series)/Archive 1

2008-12-20T05:48:16Z

Capedia: /* How is this consistent? */ new section

#Is this for real?
#If this is in the same continuity as the re-imagined series, we won't need a separate namespace for it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:51, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::On the first, it looks it, but, like most people, I'm more inclined to believe things I like.
::I almost posted the second on Quorum, but I decided it was a conclusion we'd all come to anyway. I'm glad I was at least partially right. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:56, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Actually, thinking it through some more, it might be handy to have a namespace for a new series - particularly for projects like the screencap categorization. I'll have to think on how they should coexist. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:00, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::::Just for clarity, you cannot mean an actual namespace like Battlestar Wiki, Podcast, or Sources, since RDM and TOS use the same one. Assuming you mean something like the use of "RDM" as a parenthetical disambiguation term, I disagree. It should never be necessary to disambiguate between RDM and Caprica if they share a continuity. In fact, I think TOS/Caprica name conflicts should be resolved with RDM, as Ronald D. Moore is the creative force behind Caprica, too; it would also avoid a problem if something is mentioned first in Cparica, then in RDM.
::::I think a category would be sufficient for screen capture organization. (It's clearly necessary, anyway.) --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:09, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Yes, I meant the parenthetical suffix. What we have now is, for example, "Screen Captures (TOS)", "Screen Captures (1980)" and "Screen Captures (RDM)". The reason (1980) and (TOS) are separate is that there are numerous other continuities that branch off of TOS and don't include 1980, a concern that wouldn't be relevant for RDM and "Caprica". However, wouldn't we want a category such as "Screen Captures (Caprica)" that would be distinct from "Screen Captures (RDM)"? That's why a parenthetical designation separate from "RDM" might be useful. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:13, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::That's the category I meant. Category:CAP should probably just be [[:Category:RDM]], barring a desire to keep track of things mentioned in the re-imagined series only or Caprica only. Category:Episode Guide (CAP) would suffice for episode pages, which would also be in Category:RDM to indicate continuity, not series. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:20, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::I think this is horribly confusing. The best thing would be to have separate abbreviations for the current series and the RDM universe as a whole, but I don't exactly feel like going through the entire wiki, moving articles, categories and links. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:23, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
Not only is it real, when I saw the first rumor I immediately took it to the "Talk to Mrs.Ron" thread, and asked. She asked Ron, who within 30 minutes responded that yes, he had already publicly pitched it to ScifiChannel and the news sites weren't making it up and it wasn't a rumor. Talk about fan-base connection! Secondly Peter, we do need a template if only for the episodes: I mean Next Generation and Deep Space Nine are in the same continuity, share several characters and even have crossover episodes, but we still use "TNG" and "DS9" stuff to sort the two out. I mean one day they might have a "Caprica" episode called "Resistance". So we have RDM "Resistance" and CAP "Resistance". It's just a convention to use for episode naming really. I mean when Galactica shows up in "Caprica" it'll be the same ship, and we'll still call it "Galactica (RDM)", yes, but "CAP" would be mostly an episode thing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:02, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:I sincerely hope they never give an episode the same name, but I suppose it's possible. I suggest not using " (CAP)" unless that forces it, and, even then, restricting it to that specific usage. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:11, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::Well, most series tend to wind up using 3 letter abbreviations after a while. And yeah even TNG had "The Emissary (TNG)" not to be confused with the pilot episode of Deep Space Nine, "The Emissary (DS9)".--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:14, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

==Abbreviation==
For templating and just basic shorthand, we need an abbreviation we'll officially use for this series, just as ''The Next Generation'' is TNG, ''The Original Series'' is TOS, and Ron D. Moore's ''Battlestar Galactica'' is RDM. I think CAP would be good. Any objections?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:12, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:"Caprica" in full looks better and doesn't take much longer to type, while CAP is visually consistant with RDM and TOS. I don't much care one way or the other. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:14, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::I guess so, well just in case anyone wanted it. I'm not staking a big discussion on this, I'm just tossing ideas around. Whatever works out. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:16, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Oh I just figured this out: both "Caprica" and "Voyager" have 7 letters, but Memory Alpha uses that "VOY" abbreviation all the time. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 02:17, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::::So will RDM refer to both the RDM universe and the re-imagined series, while CAP refers just to the new spinoff? That is, suppose a new character named "Rigel" shows up in the "Caprica" series. Is she "Rigel (RDM)", or is she "Rigel (CAP)"? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:18, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::She'll be summarily executed and all memory of her erased. ...That is a problem, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:23, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
'''Thought''': There currently exist no pages requiring re-imagined series vs. ''Caprica'' disambiguation. "RDM" is currently used only for things that are part of both continuities.

'''Proposal''': "TNS" should be used for the things only belonging to the re-imagined series, i.e. Episode Guide (RDM) -> Episode Guide (TNS), Screen Captures (RDM) ->Screen Captures (TNS), and things named the same in both (like hypothetical Rigel and Resistance). "RDM" should be used for the entire continuity that Ronald D. Moore has created.

This minimizes changes, but it disambiguates what must be. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:30, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

:I agree that this is probably the best way out of the problem, but I just want to emphasize how very, very much I don't want to make all these changes. We will need to carefully plan what needs to be moved and what does not, in order to avoid inconsistancies and broken links. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:37, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

Well actually I think it can be simpler, and moreover that we didn't want to use "TNS" anymore because it falls back into the "it's a new show, as opposed to the old show" mentality when they're really not comparable. 
'''Thought''': "RDM" covers...the entire "RDMverse" for lack of a better word. 
'''Proposal''': We'll actually keep using "RDM" for '''almost everything''', and "RDM" is the catch-all word for the "RDMverse", HOWEVER, in cases such as "The Hand of God" which is an episode titled "RDM"....we'll just keep calling those "RDM" because there's only a few of them and they're really easy to spot. ****"CAP" would really only be used as an episode guide abbreviation, and when *citing episode articles*.
--->For example, really the only time I think we'd really use "CAP" is like this: "The Cylon War began 52 years before the Fall of the Twelve Colonies <nowiki>([[RDM]]: "[[Colonial Day]]"), and was started when a Centurion named B166ER killed his human commander ([[CAP]]: "[[Cylon Revolt!]]"</nowiki>" check out a couple of pages on Memory Alpha, ones that cover alien races that span multiple tv shows like Klingons and such: that's the format they use to cite stuff between episodes, even though they're in the same continuity. But really, we can't use "BSG" because that means "BattlestarGroup", and not "TNS" because we don't want to stress that it is the new series. They're all part of the "RDMverse", while the current show is ''specifically'' "RDM", and events, objects, and persons on "Caprica" will still be put in the "RDM" category, but episodes will have "CAP". ---->'''Unless of course, you guys want to invent the term "RDMverse" for use on the Wiki as an all-encompassing term'''--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 03:18, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

:CA's solution is really the only reasonable thing to do in the long term, even if it is going to be a bit like a root canal. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 05:31, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

::Well, we've root-canaled before. Just need more laughing gas. Other wikis ''wish'' to have problems like ours. :) I'm in general agreemnent with CA's idea, though it's going to sting. (Oh, I got the B166ER reference, Merv. It wouldn't be an inappropriate way to start the conflict in this show either, come to think of it...) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:40, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:::I hope I read this right... RDM to TNS? Can I work on a bot that does this for us? Does it have to be right now also? There is no set timetable yet for this to show. I was alsmost going to recommend {{tl|delete}} very early AM. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:50, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

::Well look I'm not so adamant about it that I'm willing to make some sort of Faustian pact in order to see it done, but I'd ''prefer'' if we didn't use "TNS" because "The New Series" makes it sound like we're trying to set it "as opposed to the Old" when really they're not comparable. I don't know what else we could come up with, but I'm working on it. Though I must say, we have several MONTHS before we get more news on this and we've got time to decide! Yes, Spencerian, other wikis do wish for this kind of spinoff info and discussion! :) Anyone ever read "Stranger in a Strange Land"? Sometimes discussions like this remind me of that thing they mention in passing, that a Martian religious epic poem got made by a nestling that turned into a non-corporeal Old One without realizing it, and thus made a work unlike any other: as a result, the Martians themselves are heavily involved in debating this "art", even HOW to judge it, and are unconcerned with the affairs on Earth in the story; and Heinlein mentions that it will take centuries before they're done discussing this vexing dilemma! :) ***Well yeah, indeed, it is ''more'' applicable than B166ER Spencerian: those bots were just used for grunt work, but according to RDM, the Cylons were used for heavy work like mining ''as well as'' soldiers for wars ''between'' the independent Colonies; like, an army of Cylons fighting for Caprica versus and army of Cylons fighting for Gemenon, stop and ask why they're being forced to kill their fellow Cylons all the time; plus they've already got weapons. Yeah, sort of like the Jaffa in that way, actually (the Goa'uld always fought wars which were essentially just petty rivalries between the Goa'uld System Lords, thousands always dying killing their fellow Jaffa for no real reason). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:01, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:::First: Heinlein rules. Excellent reference.
:::Second: When I take a step back, I can see how an outsider might consider some of the discussions/debates of this nature to be silly. Perhaps as silly and arbitrary as Green vs Purple (Green rules!), Black/White vs White/Black (Original Series Star Trek), whether the Chosen realm was [[Memoryalpha:Triannon|created]] in nine days or ten days (which should be obvious to any '''rational''' observer, but the debate raged anyway). However, I'm glad that there are people who care about sweating the details like this, and thoughtful (if sometimes energetic) debate about it is one of the great byproducts of the wiki experience.
:::Lastly, and regarding the abbreviation: I don't really have anything definitive to add, but I do ask that we try to disregard the implementation details at first, and try to come up with the "right" way to do it. When I first saw this, I cringed as I anticipated mass conversion of RDM marks over to a new abbreviation. (I even considered pleading "TOS" citizenship, but I think I'm too young.) However our goal is to be 100% correct in the end, which means not having to explain to a user years from now why the abbreviations are inconsistent. Fortunately, in this case we also likely have considerable lead time, and members with the technical expertise to implement whatever high-level category/abbreviation/etc. decisions that consensus arrives at. As for TNS vs TOS, etc. Even as a heavy editor of the TOS pages, I wasn't offended by a TNS (as I often read TOS as being "The Old... Stuff" anyway). However, technically 1980 is newer than TOS, as is any show in the continuity after this one. TRS? (The Reimagined Series?) Ideally these abbreviations would only be used at intersections in namespaces, but there is also the categories to consider. Would all the new material ALSO fall under RDM (so you have an RDM-wide content area), but then also fall under their own respective categories for their series? Well... there's a lot to consider. But we've got plenty of time, and hopefully we can work smart (as opposed to hard) on this to minimize the grunt work and maximize the accuracy, concision, and organization. Green! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:38, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:I think I misunderstood: I'd prefer to use "RDM" to refer to the current BSG series, not TNS, but for destinguishing screencaps and images and such, yeah TNS is just a technicality yeah. I just don't want to see "The Hand of God (TNS)". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:04, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::How do you feel about Steelviper's "TRS" idea? I rather like it for the increased accuracy. It seems we agree on leaving stuff from the combined continuity marked "RDM" where necessary to disambiguate from TOS or 1980. I just don't think continuing to use "RDM" for episodes and screen captures of the re-imagined series is appropriate, as it uses the same symbol for two related but distinct concepts (which is even worse than using the same symbol for two completely different concepts); it also breaks on characters with the same name, as normally "Foo (RDM)" would be used for a character from ''Caprica'' and, thus, two articles would "rightfully" have the same name. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 15:06, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

:Well first off, "Chosen Realm" and Enterprise as a whole are a poor source of analogy, as it was poor writing. :) --->I'd actually prefer "'''RIS'''" , "Re-Imagined Series" over "TRS" "The Reimagines Series", on account of the fact that visually "TRS" is too similar to "TOS", witha difference of only one letter. New thoughts: I think I'd go with "RIS" for the current series because it is a "Re-Imagining" of TOS Battlestar Galactica's idea about a show centered on Galactica and such, but while "Caprica" is set *IN* the "Re-Imagined Universe", it's not a *DIRECT* "not so much a "remake" as a "Re-Imagining" of the essential concept" thing. ---->Therefore, I think now, I'd want to refer to the universe as a whole as "RDM", and characters places and objects like the planet Caprica, William Adama, and the Battlestar Galactica would be "RDM", but like images and episodes (we might get a name re-used or something else) for the re-imagined version of the series centered on Galactica leadering a rag-tag fleet of survivors would be called "RIS" for Re-Imagined Series, while "Caprica" stuff would be "CAP". So use "RIS" instead of "TRS", but otherwise (if I understand what he said correctly) I think I essentially agree with CA. (Either way, I'd prefer these ideas over "TNS") You guys like that idea?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:27, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:: So basicly everything that is currently ''RDM'' will be changed to ''RIS'' and this new series would be ''CAP''?
:::No. RDM will continue to be used for things which pertain to the RDM continuity/universe. Only those things which need to be disambiguated from CAP within that framework will get the new tag. So, "Boxey (RDM)" will stay "Boxey (RDM)", but "Screen captures (RDM)" will become "Screen captures (TNS)" (or whatever we decide to call it.) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:49, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::::Right.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:30, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

==Suffix discusion==
(This probably deserves its own project sooner or later. We'll get around to it.)
*TNS ("The New Series"): Not good. The series isn't going to be "new" in ten years.
*TRS ("The Re-imagined Series"): Adequate, although it doesn't roll off the tongue.
*RIS ("Re-Imagined Series"): I dislike using both the morpheme and the stem for the abbreviation.
*2003 (by analogy with 1980): Confusing, since the series will continue into at least 2007.

Any other ideas? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:18, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

:Well I'm favoring "RIS". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:30, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

::It sounds like [[Wikipedia:Bris|Bris]], which makes me uncomfortable. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:31, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

:::To be honest, I don't think "bris" is a word your average joe on the street immediately recognizes. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:13, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::::Since I assume you're not Jewish, it doesn't surprise me that you don't think that. I am going on the record as saying "RIS" gives me the jibblies. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:08, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

:I'm putting my vote in for ''TRS'', and I disagree about it not rolling off the tongue. I think it rolls off the tongue just fine. --[[User:Viannah|Viannah]] 16:29, 12 November 2006 (CST)

This is not like '''TNS:Article Name''' or is this '''Article (TNS)'''. Even I am aginist serperate namespaces for articles. I suggested another namespace for Archives, because that is reasonable, but not for "Series". I don't know of any Wikis that do this, other than doing (SERIES) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:37, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:Well like I said check out MemoryAlpha they do this all the time to destinguish the various series. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:00, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::Here are some of your theories put to the test.
:::*http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Star_Trek:_Voyager says it's an "Article"
:::*http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Jeri_Taylor says it's an "Article"
:::*http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine says it's an "article"
:::*http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Memory_Alpha:User_projects is a "Project" page.

::Which means they do not do: ''Star_Trek: Voyager Jeri Taylow''

::Oh.. and TNG goes to '''''Star Trek: The Next Generation'''''. Nothing suggests that they do it this way on MA. Other than when an episode from two diffrerent series has the same name, they do (TNG), (DS9), and so on. Check your sources before you think state a fact. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 20:39, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Calm down; he misunderstood you. As discussed above, there is some imprecision with the usage of the word ''namespace'' here. Namespaces are things like "Battlestar Wiki," "Podcast," or "Sources" that prefix a page name. "TNS," "TRS," and "RIS" would be parenthesized after the page name proper.
:::You might note the more civil tone taken in my mention of this above. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 21:25, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
::::I am pretty sure he undesrtanded me because I mentioned it above in the other discussion. I have said that "TNS", "TRS" would be in () but he said they use namespaces, which he knows, because he has worked on these himself. There was was much confusing in his long paragraphs I asked twice for clairfication from him, and he never responded. I was pointing out the differences between the Wiki in which he compares to MA a little to much. I don't because it's very retrictied to what they can do since they are on a hosted "community". --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:44, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

:I'm consciously abusing the term "namespace" here, mainly because I couldn't think of anything better. "Suffix" will work fine, though. Sorry for any confusion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:07, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

::Look I think there's confusion on what's meant by "namespace" and to be honest I don't know exactly what that means; I just meant, in in-article citations, that's how we'd abbreviate it: I mean like I said above, it would be "William Adama: William Adama is the commander of Galactica during the fall of the Twelve Colonies <nowiki>([[RIS]]: [[Miniseries]]), and first joined the colonial military when Cylon Centurions destroyed his humble family moisture farm ([[CAP]]: "[[The Die is Cast]]")</nowiki> that's all, I mean I don't know what changing namespace would entail. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:25, 27 April 2006 (CDT)
:::That is display. ''Twelve Colonies ([[RIS]]: [[Miniseries]])'' It's ok to create invaild links if you need to make your point. I do it all the time. But if there was two boxey's bettween CAP and RIS, ''Boxey <nowiki>([[CAP]]: [[Boxey (CAP)|Boxey]])</nowiki>'' to ''Boxey ([[CAP]]: [[Boxey (CAP)|Boxey]])'' --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:34, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I think that unless there was a CAP miniseries as well, that wouldn't be necessary. "William Adama stubbed his toe when he was two ([[SomeCapricaEpisode]]). He would later reflect on this during a cylon attack in "[[SomeGalacticaEpisode]]"." --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

Well that was just to get the ball rolling. Let's get back to figuring out the nuts amd bolts of this when we know more about episodes and casting and such.....one year from now. :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:21, 29 April 2006 (CDT)

==Spinoff?==
I don't think it's accurate to call this a spinoff in the article. It's not a spinoff because it contains none of the same characters or story. It's a prequel. That is like saying Voyager was a spinoff of Deep Space Nine. They are in the same continuity, but Caprica isn't a spinoff. If it were about the Caprica resistance in the current timeline, then it would be a spinoff. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 09:28, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
:Prequels are technically spinoffs. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 09:34, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
::Generally spinoffs keep to the same timeline. You don't normally go backwards in a spinoff do you? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 09:39, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
:::"Star Trek: Enterprise" was both a prequel and a spinoff. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:46, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
::::Thanks for clarification :) --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 11:48, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
:I disagree. I think a spinoff has to take place within the same timeline, not just the same universe. Voyager is not a spinoff of Deep Space Nine. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 12:19, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
::No, and something is in the same "timeline" if it's in the same "universe". Next Generation was a spinoff of "Star Trek" the Original Series, despite being set 75 years later and featuring none of the original characters in recurring roles. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:15, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
:::I meant the current time, I don't know a better word for that. --[[User:Mateo|Mateo]] 13:23, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
:::[[wikipedia:Spinoff#Variants_of_spin-offs|Wikipedia says:]] "A new series is started with the same theme and existing in the same universe as the original series, but may not necessarily have the same characters. Examples of this type are the Star Trek, Stargate, Law & Order, and CSI series. These are sometimes called franchises." and "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Voyager and Star Trek: Enterprise are also spinoffs of the original series." Not that wikipedia is necessarily definitive (Oregon is "Idaho's Portugal"), but I thought it might help us refine the definition of "spinoff" that we're using. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:22, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
::::The new mag. even states that the series is not final yet. It just out there. Usually a marketing ploy. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 13:32, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
:::::In the IGN interview with RDM and Eick, it seemed to me (IMHO) that Eick was downplaying the possibility (We only have the script and that's it). --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 13:37, 20 August 2006 (CDT)

== The Graystone Family ==

Anyone have any theories as to who the Graystones are? The family of the inventor of the Cylons? The family of Lee and Zak's mother Caroline? Both? [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:45, 20 August 2006 (CDT)

:My initial reation was that the Graystones would be the inventors of the Cylon, definitely. Or perhaps, on the other side of the coin, activists wholly opposed to their creation. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:00, 3 October 2006 (CDT)

::Madbrood's guess is correct. According to an interview with Ron Moore on the SciFi.com website, the Greystones are a family where there is a "Microsoft"-like company that loves to make technology, regardless of whether they should. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:21, 3 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Gods damn, I'm good :D --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 07:10, 4 October 2006 (CDT)

== Starting Production? ==
HHR is reporting that production will begin November, and may be shown on NBC.[http://www.hollywoodnorthreport.com/article.php?Article=3488]. Don't know if this is concrete enough to post in article. I always thought the show might play better on another network. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 05:48, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

== Reality, Meet Fiction. Fiction, Reality. ==

During my morning coffee I chuckled [http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article1695546.ece at this link from a UK newspaper], which is all too relevant to this article. Best quote from a reader:

<blockquote>"Seriously though given the amount of coding errors I detect and fix as an IT specialist I would be more worried that your toaster will toast and butter you instead of the bread."</blockquote>

-- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:42, 4 May 2007 (CDT) ([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contrib Skillz]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|Edit Skillz]])
:I wouldn't mind being "buttered" by [[Number Eight|#8]] :D --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:47, 4 May 2007 (CDT)
::Some honey and cinnamon from the belly button of a Six would be fine too. I'll skip any "French toast" jokes. :) -- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:28, 4 May 2007 (CDT) ([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contrib Skillz]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|Edit Skillz]])
:Link has died. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 11:00, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
::The article's title is "Human rights for robots? We’re getting carried away" on the London ''Times'' Online site. I found a [http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article1695546.ece newer link.] --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:00, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

== Sci Fi taking [[FlashGordonWiki:Flash Gordon (Sci Fi Channel)|Flash Gordon]] over this? ==

I remember someone commented along YouTube's upload of [[Razor Flashbacks]] that [[Sci Fi Channel|Sci Fi]] took ''Flash Gordon'' over ''Caprica''.. As I'd highly doubt this is true, just to make certain: simply a rumour or a little more? [[User:DrWho42|DrWho42]] 09:55, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

== Hope? ==

In the latest TV Guide, there's a snippet on page 28 that claims that Mark Stern (SciFi's executive VP of original programming) said, "I just got a call from NBC-Universal. They want us to take another look at the project." (With reference to Caprica.) So, there may be hope yet (in part, likely, due to the writer's strike. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 20:24, 15 January 2008 (CST)
: It would be interesting to see if it ever takes off the ground... On the other hand, if it starts prepping during the strike, will RDM and company be involved in it? Or will they just give the show to someone else? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki — ''New''] 20:38, 15 January 2008 (CST)

== New information from E!Online==

Since we apparently believe this, is it appropriate to add Tamara Adama to the Siblings and Children sections, respectively, of Bill and Joseph's character infoboxes? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:24, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
: That'd work. We just need to make sure to add the proper referencing. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 20:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

== Spoiler Policy for the new series? ==
So I was just wondering how far are we willing to go with information coming out of the new series before we call it a spoiler? Our spoiler policy doesn't cover new series, as dealing with an upcoming series is a first for the wiki. Personally I think the information we're getting now counts as premise, and is ok to leave without spoiler warnings, but if in the future we get more detailed information than what we have it may be spoilerific.-- [[User:OrionFour|OrionFour]] 00:12, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
:Good point. I think anything that deals with the plot is a spoiler, but until everything is settled there won't be episode pages. There are a few character pages, but I have no idea how to classify those. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 00:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

==Past or present tense?==
By the way, since the RDM episodes are written in present tense (regarding information on status as of the last episode), I assume all Caprica info should be written in past tense, even when the show is on air? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 15:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:Um, that's tricky, and we have to think of something here, but in general, I'd say no. That's just awkward. They're the same universe, but when reading something about ''Caprica'', I'm reading from that show's POV, which is generally present tense. When including ''Caprica'' information into a TNS article past tense fits though (fixed :) ). Or for people who are dead. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:40, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
::Er, you mean past tense for those latter things, right? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:::But having stuff that takes place both in CAP and 50 years later in TNS in present tense, as well as some of what happens at the same time as CAP in past tense would be even more awkward to me. And some articles, like [[William Adama]] and [[Cylons (RDM)]] will have information from both shows which will feature them (more or less) equally. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Well, it depends on where the information is put IMO. In an article that's exclusive to ''Caprica'' or an existing TNS article? On [[William Adama]] it would naturally be past tense, but I think that reading a Graystone family article or even [[Joseph Adama]] (once he appears on the show), one would expect present tense. On the other hands, the genesis of the Cylons on [[Cylon History]] may be past tense again (that's where it gets ''really'' complicated). It's not really an issue now, but we'll have at least one episode article for ''Caprica'' and perhaps many more. And those would be present tense of course. As said, it's tricky, because we already said that the want to keep the (RDM) disambiguation for both series. But at the same time, I think there should be a different tense depending on the POV. Maybe use something like the <nowiki>{{TOS}}</nowiki> template to keep them apart when possible? A solution for William Adama specifically, could also be to create a childhood article that contains only ''Caprica'' information. But that doesn't work elsewhere. We'll see. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:18, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
::::By the way, in comparison, Memory Alpha uses past tense both for [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Jean-Luc_Picard Jean-Luc Picard] and for [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Jonathan_Archer Jonathan Archer] - even information from "current" series is written in past tense there, but episode summaries for all series are in present tense. In my opinion it makes sense for all articles except for episode ones to use past tense - especially once BSG is over. Also, it will be confusing if the [[Joseph Adama]] article has information from Caprica in the present tense and information from TNS about events that happened after Caprica in the past tense. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::Memory Alpha's system is very silly. Practically everything is in the past tense, because they use an annoying pseudo-historian approach. For a long time they had stuff like "Humans were a species", but at least that is fixed by now. That really hurt. I really, really prefer that we use present tense - it just reads a lot better - but I see the issue with a larger universe like ST, and as you see the issue crops up with ''Caprica'' now. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I happen to agree with Serenity. I also happen to agree that MA's system of doing things verges on the asinine. Here's the short of it, to clarify:
* If an article is ''exclusively'' about ''Caprica'', then it should be written in ''present tense''. Same goes for articles exclusively about the Re-imagined Series.
* If an article spans from ''Caprica'' to the re-imagined series, then:
*# Events occurring ''before'' the [[Miniseries]] (timeline-wise) should be written in the ''past tense''.
*# Events occurring ''during'' and ''after'' the Miniseries (timeline-wise) should be written in the ''present tense''.
I should add that there are a few exceptions to this, such as articles on the history of the Twelve Colonies, etc, but the above works for 95% of the content we have on the wiki. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 17:38, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

== Are we sure we're not getting ahead of ourselves here? ==

I've been thinking, considering that all that is being produced is a pilot, is giving the casting sheets full canonical status a little presumptuous? If the series doesn't get taken up, then we might find a lot of the wiki becomes akin to [[Battlestar Galactica: Year Two proposal]] from TOS. Perhaps some qualifying tags can be added to the content. [[User:OTW|OTW]] 23:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:The pilot has been greenlit and the information from the casting sheet is likely only from the pilot. And even if nothing more than the pilot is produced, it will still have canonical status and the characters will still have articles here. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 23:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:: I find that we have topped what we can do, including the poral which I never expected to have anything other than the introduction. The things in Cylons portal gotta go. It's just got no place right now there. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 23:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:::As for the Cylon portal, I guess you're right, it's too early to add it there. And if anything on the sheet is from episodes other than the pilot, we'll just note which info is from the pilot and which is/was supposed to be in further episodes after the pilot is aired. And if we consider information from Bradley Thompson and Ronald D. Moore given off-screen as canon then I don't see a reason not to consider Caprica canon even if not all of it eventually gets produced. And since the pilot has been greenlit, this will definitely be more than the Year Two proposal anyway. And the articles on new characters have the spoiler tags which warn that they may differ from the final, aired version. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 23:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:I'm not that happy about the inclusion of small details into other articles. The character articles are perfectly fine. The information is valid, but it's largely contained to a few articles. But it shouldn't be spread around freely. A lot can change until the show is aired. For example there is a script from the Miniseries that had all Colonies on one planet. And, for example, a character's home colony can easily be switched. I'm not saying that we should remove it, but further edits to non-Caprica articles should be done carefully. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
:: Concur. Also, if we're to add content to already established articles (Joseph Adama, Tauron, etc) we must note via footnotes that the information is subject to change and is, by no means, final until it is aired. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 06:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Added the footnotes to everything I could remember. -- [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
::::Apropos of small info: [http://www.sidesexpress.com/se_index.cfm?locid=5&task=type&l=5&c=caprica&p=1#sr Mayrs/Brandstatter] are now looking for even more actors. -- [[User:Pedda|Pedda]] 12:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::I am sending my face/picture/resume in. I so want to be that agent. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|talk]]) 14:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::Anyone with an account on that site to get more casting info? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 19:33, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

==Timeline Discrepency?==
The promo material for the series states that it starts 51 years prior to BSG itself and is set at a time before the Colonies are unified. However, this appears to be impossible: in Colonial Day it says the Colonies were unified 52 years earlier, whilst the mini-series states that the Cylon War ended over 40 years ago and then Razor says the war lasted 12.5 years, putting the start of the war between 52 and 53 years before the mini. Taking that into account, by 51 years before the events of BSG, the Colonies should already be unified and at war with the Cylons (an RDM blog post suggests that the Colonies unified because of the war). I would also assume that the Cylons would need many years (a decade or more, surely?) before the war to be fully developed and mass-produced, and their ships to be built. A more sensible starting time for CAPRICA would be 60+ years prior to BSG. A possibly explanation given on other boards is that the mechanical Cylons already exist, maybe even their war machine, and it is the events of CAPRICA that leads to the creation of more advanced AI and the Cylons gaining sentience. Whilst this wouldn't help the simple fact that they should already be at war, it would minimise the damage. Of course, the promo material also states that Graystone's work results in the creation of the very first Cylons, which would seem to rule that out. Hopefully they'll fix this with a caption or something at the start of the pilot, but at the moment it sounds like a continuity error to even dwarf Hero could be in the running here.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 12:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
: Yeah, this is a bit of a timeline discrepancy here, or at least seems that way from the information available online in regard to the production. It would be worth noting, but we need to make sure we note that this is from presently available information. (Also, they may define a "year" differently after all. Interestingly enough, they did define Razor in terms of days, not a breakdown of years/months/days. So they have wiggle room there.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [[bsp:|Battlestar Pegasus]] 14:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
==Number of episodes==
Official press release says that, "SCI FI Channel has greenlit production on the new original series Caprica, ordering 20 hours of the drama '''including''' the two-hour pilot,..." so it should be Pilot + 18 episodes, not 21 episodes. --[[User:Deus|Deus]] 08:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

== How is this consistent? ==

Early in BSG, somebody says something along the lines of, "The last time we saw the Cylons they looked like walking toasters." The humans were caught completely off guard by the Cylon infiltrators because nobody realized it was possible for a robot to pass as a human.

Now in this new series, set 50 years before the events of BSG, we have somebody already creating a robot that is a perfect replica of his daughter. By the time of BSG, the idea of robots passing as humans should be very old news.

How is this apparent contradiction resolved?

[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 05:48, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Talk:A Measure of Salvation/Archive 1

2006-11-26T16:08:42Z

Capedia: /* I don't get it. */

==Picture?==
Is that picture from A Measure of Salvation? I don't remember Three and Six projecting themselves into a forest. The outfits they are wearing look like what they wore while torturing Baltar, so maybe it's from a deleted scene. Unless I've forgotten the scene for some reason, shouldn't we get a picture that actually came from the episode? -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Some Poor Writing ==

Attention to detail is what has set BSG apart from so many other science-fiction shows - including Mr. Moore's Star Trek franchises. So I was very disappointed last night to see the sloppy errors piling up deep. I'd have to see the epsiode again to list them all, but mainly them problems concerned the virus.

The scene where potentially infected Galactica crew are "quarantined", together with Sharon, in a room with cold-storage plastic flaps was ridiculous.

It's preposterous to think that a cylon would casually betray his race for the anti-viral drug. He has no assurance that he won't be double-crossed, and he certainly - even after torture - wouldn't spell out the danger the virus poses to the cylon fleet. The audience isn't stupid and neither should the Galctica crew be. Seeing Lee with a dim little lightbulb over his head was just insulting to us all.

Past episodes have cleary shown that cylon ressurection occurs over significant distances, (greater than FTL jumps), and that calls into question the fundemental logistics of Adama's infection plan.

There would be no reason to jump Galactica itself, just sending one raptor with a cylon transponder and one infected cylon would have done the trick. (Nevermind the ease with which two cylon raiders almost instantly materialize into a whole cylon fleet with a resurrectionship conveniently in tow.)

The analysis on the episode summary page provides an excellent plot device allowing the raid to "succeed" thus justifying the major build-up of the two part story. In fact, it would have made a superb three part arc.

Hypothetical episode 3: Spend some realistic period of time finding a reasonably sized cylon fleet, infect them, virus begins spreading throughout area covered by the "local" resurrection ship. Cylons scramble to head off disease, Baltar gains points by developing Hera vaccine, cylons survive but with major "body-blow" giving Galactica and fleet some breathing room as they prepare to investigate the new lead to Earth.

Please don't get me wrong, I love this show, but sci-fi writing has always been done on the cheap and it make my eyes roll as I struggle to care about characters forced through non-sensical plot contortions. Please, Mr. Moore, DON'T LET BSG SINK TO THE SAME SAD FATE! I'm trusting that this was just a hiccup not a trend.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 13:08, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:In defense of the writers, I think you are wrong on two points:
:*Jumping Galactica makes sense. In [[Scar]] Cylon Raiders are engaging in skirmishes despite the absence of a resurrection ship. A Raptor is not a big enough threat to guarantee the presence of a resurrection ship. If one isn't in range by accident the Cylons would probably engage the Raptor without it and take a minor risk of permanently loosing a few raiders. And after [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]] the Cylons could be exspected to take a closer look to any unexpected Raptors with a Cylon transponder showing up. If they destroy it without a resurrection ship in range, the plans failed. Also Racetrack stated last episode that there is a shortage of Raptors in the fleet, noone is going to be eager to sacrifice one. Jumping Galactica ensures the Cylon require lots of forces, expect lot's of casualties and have a resurrection ship nearby, though I could have done without seeing it arrive on the battlefield, that's bad and inconsistent strategy, just to make sure the audience knows that it is in range.

:*There is probably a greater timespan between arrival of the patrol and that of the strikeforce then shown onscreen. Helo manipulates the oxygen-system after the jump, nevertheless the prisoners are already dead by the time the resurrection ship appears, indicating a least a few minutes have passed. The process can be seen in [[Flight of the Phoenix]] in the firing range scene (it's likely that Helo manipulated the same system).

:Two more plotholes I noticed: How do the Colonials know the Cylon supply lines? And given that they know Athena is immune because she's given birth to a hybrid child, they should wonder if there a more human-cylon hybrids. Even without knowing that Hera is still alive, if the massive Cylon effort to create hybrids resulted in creating at least one more hybrid the cylons would take a blow, but would not be exstinct. By the way it would be nice if we would hear something about these efforts. When Hera is shown for the first time in Cylon hands would be a good opportunity to close that chapter with a throwaway line that all these efforts were fruitless and stopped. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 11:24, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: That's an interesting question -- one that I had myself, actually. Even if the effort didn't destroy the Cylon race (and I think that goal is overly optimistic), the virus would have given a serious blow to the Cylons, which would only serve to give the survivors more breathing room -- not to metion the increase in general morale, which the survivors seriously need after the farce at New Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

I would have to agree the writing is poor. The series seems to be drifting from its roots and moving into the Hollywood PC political statement world. This season has already thrown in suicide bombing and implied it was acceptable, now there is a drift into making political statements about biological weapons (even though nuclear weapons have been freely used in the past.) It seems the writers are abandoning their science fiction roots and reaching to make their own personal social or political commentary. I do hope they get back to what I considered truly exceptional science fiction and stop these editorials.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 00:06, 12 November 2006 (CST)

Followup: According to and article on the Gateworld site ([http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/10/season_three_ratings_slip_from_premiere.shtml]) the ratings have been slipping. As much as I truly love this show, I know my wife and I were both rather disgusted with the previous inclusion of the suicide bombers and now the “loss of humanity” references associated with the potential use of biological weapons. I have also heard complaints from two of our friends. I’m concerned that if this direction is continued it will not only ruin the show, it will also drive away viewers resulting in cancelation. As a long time science fiction fan (I even remember watching the original showings of Lost in Space and the first Star Trek) this has been my all time favorite show up until now. I would hate to see it have an early demise. As I mentioned above, I hope the writers can return to science fiction and entertainment.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 16:13, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: Ratings have been slipping for ''SG-1'' and ''Atlantis'' as well; neither have the strong allegories to today's world, or the world of yesteryear for that matter. So I don't fully buy that there's a direct correlation between the creative direction BSG is going and the loss in viewership. Actually, one could probably argue (more successfully in my informed opinion) that the loss of ratings has more to do with Sci-Fi's scheduling decisions of breaking up the "Three Amigos" (''Stargate SG-1'', ''Stargate Atlantis'' and ''Battlestar Galactica''). As for the "loss of humanity" and suicide bombing themes, these have existed since the miniseries (Number Five's suicide bombing attempt in "[[Litmus]]" and Adama's speech in the miniseries and platitudes since then). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::: In my very informed opinion, I would have to disagree on several points. While time slots and lineup can affect ratings, this usually is reflected in those of the shows with the weaker individual draw. Galactica is a cornerstone show which should draw up the ratings for those around it rather than have such a slump from a lineup change.

::: As for the previous Friday lineup, SG-1 ratings have steadily declined since the departure of Richard Dean Anderson. His departure also seemed to coincide with decline in the quality of the writing, though I’m not convinced the two were related rather than just coincidental. I have always believed the SG Atlantis was the weak link in that lineup and was carried by its position between SG-1 and BSG. As mentioned in the article I referenced above, Dr. Who, which leads into BSG, has had poor ratings this season. I believe the replacement of the very likable actor playing the title role, though consistent with the original BBC series, was a detriment to this series. In addition, this season’s writing has seemed less creative and entertaining. I greatly enjoyed their first season, but have found the current one to be rather dull and uninteresting. This certainly doesn’t help with the Galactica ratings, but I don’t believe it is the major factor in the decline.

::: The introduction of controversial topics into plot lines is often risky, particularly with science fiction which is typically considered pure escapism, even when it has a dark element like BSG (i.e.: The potential extermination of the human race and the continued threat from the Cylon.) Generally, Sci-Fi fans want to escape the real world and be entertained, not lectured on the writers’ political or social views of modern events. While any controversial topic is a risk, the introduction of those that are currently so polarizing is almost a guarantee of distancing a significant portion of your fan base.

::: You associated the bombing executed by a Cylon against those carried out by human suicide bombers. The two aren’t even remotely comparable. The first was not executed by a human, was not condoned by the humans, and was executed by an individual who (as already had been established) would be reborn (“downloaded”) into a new body, but as the same individual. The later was not only condoned by members of the upper human leadership, it was presented as a reasonable and acceptable approach in a given situation – a strong statement considering current world events. (As someone who’s nephew’s squad was attacked by the first suicide bomber in the gulf war, killing many of his squad just a few yards in front of him, I will freely admit to strong personal feelings in this matter. None the less, such controversial plot elements are invariably going to strongly offend a significant number of viewers.) The inference that the humans must limit their use of weapons against an enemy bent on the genocide of humanity is another PC component. Biological weapons as a plot element would have been better completely left out rather than used as a mechanism for additional political commentary. Remember, people watch for entertainment, not a reminder of current events or a thinly disguised lecture from Hollywood writers on their political and social opinions.

::: It is also rather telling that the ratings dropped rather significantly after the season 3 premiere (where suicide bombings by humans were introduced and condoned.) I’ll be interested in seeing how the ratings are affected after this latest one sided (read: “PC”) foray into contemporary controversial issues.

::: --[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 20:40, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::::I doubt that the suicide bombings in Occupation and Precipice were "condoned" by the show. Roslin didn't like them. Tigh, who planned them, thought they were bad. Even Baltar (who's been developing a conscience this season, thank the Gods) didn't like them. The first was a waste of life and counterproductive, causing a massive Cylon freakout that would have killed off Roslin, Zarek, Cally and a bunch of other people if the resistance hadn't saved them in the last minute. The second took down the power grid, which was more helpful, but it should be noted that in this case the bomber didn't kill any civilians, just herself and some Cylons. Tigh is still suffering because of the choices he made on New Caprica, and it doesn't look like he's coming out of those moral woods anytime soon.

::::Furthermore, I don't think the show has condemned the use of the Cylon virus, either. Roslin was all about it, after all, and I don't think there's anything less PC than a schoolteacher with a Messiah complex jonesing for some genocide. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 22:33, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:::: The use of nuclear weapons are logical in a space setting where great distances are involved and ships are heavily armoured. I would suspect, though, that a Presidential order would have been required to use nukes on the surface of a populated planet. The use of bio-weapons would probably have similiar restrictions because of their nature. I disagree that this show was PC. The weapon that the humans stumbled upon had a unique ability to wipe out the entire race of cyclons. To use it does carry far more ethical problems than simply using a nuke on a basestar. To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 09:39, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:::::''To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet''--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]]

:::::I think that's a poor analogy, since the Japanese were not a threat to kill every American person on the planet, which is what the Cylons are a threat to do (notwithstanding Helo's odious observation that "they tried to live with us on New Caprica"). The humans and Cylons are in a war of absolute total commitment, and it's difficult to imagine how the war can end until one side or the other ceases to exist. In that scenario, you probably have to choose the other side to be the one that ceases to exist.

:::::On the other hand, one might argue that the numbers involved are so staggering that, even to a human, the lives of billions of Cylons must be valued over the lives of forty-some thousand humans. (I'm making a wild guess that the Cylon population is comparable to the pre-war human population of the 12 colonies.) This argument of course assumes that Cylons are "alive" in the same sense as people and are not merely machines. It also ignores the question of whether there is an Earth with a population of billions of humans who need the colonial fleet to survive and give them a heads-up if ''they'' are to have a fighting chance to survive a Cylon attack.

:::::[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 16:04, 25 November 2006 (CST)

:::I think the show has been attacking issues that are important in our modern world since the beginning. Basic issues like balance of power, whether civilian government should stay in power during a massive crisis and war, religion in general, how to treat thouse different from yourselves (the show has been very ambivalent about killing Cylons, even though they are "just robots"), Baltar's initial refusal to believe in the gods or a god. It has even tackled thitngs like terrorism as a means to an end (Zarek was introduced at the beginning of the first season), abortion, infanticide, torture, treatment of prisoners. In all, it has been very current and politically involved since the beginning. However, with the first 4 episodes of season 3, it took a decidedly controversial and risky turn by depicting our favorite valiant and noble heros under brutal occupation. The writers have guts, and their ratings may have suffered, but they are doing the same thing they've been doing since the beginning of the show. It's just now a lot of poeple who watch TV don't agree with the particular direction the show took. However, even then, it left the viewer to choose for him or herself what to think, it was again ambivalent, which may be what makes it the best show on TV. No, the show will not supply you with easy answers and moral certitude to very important current questions. But that's a good thing, not a bad thing. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 15:49, 13 November 2006 (EST)

::::I have to agree that it's been dealing with controversial issues from the start. One thing I've learned about BsG from watching it is that every time you think there's a line they won't cross, they seem to cross it. I think Yaneh has it right. Now, with them back in space, I do think it might turn more towards classic sci-fi, but I do agree this is not an unprecedented pattern. As for the writing on this particular episode, I think there were some odd references or slip-ups, which to my mind were made for the sole purpose of bailing Galactica out of the responsibility for a genocide. But I'm not going to judge the whole show at this point--it's WAY too early for that. I'm even more of a music buff than a TV buff, and I don't write off a band until there are 3 stinkers in a row. Let's wait and see if this a pattern before we write BsG off. --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

My additional $.02 - I'm going to have to disagree with my esteemed colleague from across the aisle, GeorgeW. I have no complaint with the political/moral questions that the writers have chosen to tackle this season. I do not believe that sci-fi was ever supposed to be purely escapist. Think of Frank Herbert's Dune which was essentially a political novel in sci-fi clothing. And the reason it is still regarded as one of the greatest sci-fi novels ever written was '''attention to detail!'''

What's made BSG so engaging has been its willingness to tackle the dark and gritty sides of a sci-fi story and thus make it far more real. This season's espisodes especially, have dug into tough questions about the justification of actions taken by a society being oppressed and even threatened with extinction - and kudos to Mr. Moore and Co. for going there! While they chose Nazi-esque imagery to illustrate the cylon occupation of New Caprica, the physical and psycological torture depicted there is exactly what Palestinians have been living with every day for decades, and I think it's extraordinary that this show has dared to ask American audiences to speculate how they would react if the same sort of conditions were imposed on us.

Consider Fox's 24, an unabashed advertisement for torture in the name of patriotism - nothing more than fearmongering to stir up a post-911 traumatised public into a state of jackboot-stamping, flag-waving paranoia, willing to hand over their civil liberties to facists. As grim as the first two episodes of this BSG season were, it was refreshing to see some element of pop culture actually asking viewers to stop and think - rather than just telling them what to believe.

If there's been a drop in ratings as a result of this storyline, it's only because so many Americans have let their capacity for critical thought atrophy over the last 40 years. (But just as likely, as was stated above, it was Sci-fi's choice to break up its powerhouse Friday night schedule. Frankly, canning Atlantis and popping the new Doctor Who episodes into the vacant slot would have been the prefered alternative.)

So back to my original point. With a wink and a nod to technobabble - the show's about homicidal robots for gosh sake - can we please just pay attention to the logical details. It's science-fiction, and we, the viewers, have already given the writers our willing suspension of disbelief. I'm just asking not to be abused with rediculous and downright stupid plot loopholes and gaffes in return for the privilege. I'm not writing off BSG either. Yet. But this last episode, which held such promise for having raised the stakes to the level of genocide, fell utterly flat - tripped up by the banana peels of sloppy writing.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 16:54, 14 November 2006 (CST)

In response to the original poster, I agree with you. This is not one of the show's shining moments.

--[[User:Crazyrabbits|Crazyrabbits]] 10:00, 15 November 2006 (CST)

== Explanations ==

A note about the Resurection ship jumping into the battle... it would seem that this is actually a good tactical move from the Cylon perspective. After Pegasus and Galactica easily destroyed the first resurrection ship and it's escorts, it would be prudent for the Cylons to keep the new ship with their fleet... even if this means taking it into battle with them. From their point of view it might look as if Galactica was trying to sucker the baseships away from the resurrection ship so the colonials could attack it. They've already used the "sucker" strategy a number of times, we could just be seeing a Cylon reaction to that strategy. Bringing the ship with them would negate such a threat as several basestars (more than enough to hold galactica off) would be able to cover for it.

As far as supply lines, it would figure that Galactica would know about this. Basic military strategy is to harass or at least keep an eye on enemy supply lines.

Also a note about the raptors and their missiles. The colonials may have found, after the battle over new caprica, that the missile attachments for the raptors were effective and could be adapted for other (combat) uses as well. It would also figure that after the loss of Pegasus, the colonials would be trying everything they could to increase firepower. This is probably just a jury-rig solution for increasing galactica's firepower.

: And all this has yet to be supported on screen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:45, 13 November 2006 (CST)

::In [[The Captain's Hand]] Admiral Adama orders a recon of 5 Raptors, 2 of them SAR and 3 Escort. Though never seen onscreen heavily armed Raptors must have been around for some time. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:57, 13 November 2006 (CST)

: It is also distinctly possible that the weapon pods were not available until the arrival of the Pegasus. The cache at Ragnar Anchorage was likely primarily the weapons themselves, and not a supply of launchers or similar hardware. Since Galactica was slated for retirement and Pegasus was fully operational it is very likely the later ship was much better equipped with combat military hardware.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 22:30, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== About Gaeta ==
Looking at the question here:

: Why is Gaeta so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D'Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?

Er, well, the last time Gaeta saw Baltar, he gave him a gun and told him his last chance at redemption was to stop Three from setting off the nuke. Given that the nuke didn't go off, it isn't unreasonable to believe Baltar was successful, and that in succeeding he would have either died or been stranded on New Caprica. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 02:50, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:Gaeta knew that he was chummy with the Cylons. For him to convince them not to detonate the nuke (not hard, given that it would be at best a symbolic gesture) and still make it off the planet alive is well within the realm of possibility. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==A quick battle==

I was just wondering but is the skirmish with Galactica and the Basestars going to be added into the Second Cylon War or not? Sure it was short but it still had combat and casualties so it should be added to the list. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:54, 13 November 2006 (CST)
: Sure, I don't see why not. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:10, 13 November 2006 (CST)

Should it be known as a battle or more of a skirmish? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:21, 22 November 2006 (CST)

==Baltar's Torture==

This is just pure speculation for speculation's sake, but I can't help thinking something more than Three being "touched" by Baltar's insane screaming of "don't stop..." "I believe in you" and "I love you with all my heart" (with internal Six's coaching) is going on in this scene. Three's indiference at the onset of her torturing, and her musing over which torture tool she should use doesnt seem like it could be changed or swayed by anything Baltar would say. i would say that judging from the torture tools they have, and their experiences on New Caprica at extracting information on detainees they know a little about torturing, it doesn't seem that Baltar saying anything he could to stop the torture would be unexpected. This leads me to wonder about exactly what he did say with the help of internal Six. perhaps those phrases, or the way he said it struck something in Three that only Cylons are aware of...maybe it means something that neither the Viewer or Baltar is aware of...I just find it hard to believe that Three, fully prepared for torture, even having fun picking what instrument to use...could be so easily moved from some snivelling bleating human saying he loves her with all his heart...Did Six give Baltar these phrases to say because she knew they'd strike a cord in a fellow Cylon, Three's reaction was quite a reaction, and then touching his lips like she couldn't believe those words came out of his mouth.....I don't know...just speculating.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:23, 14 November 2006 (CST)

--I wonder if the incongruity of those phrases to the situation of being tortured made Three wonder if Baltar was projecting. Now, if they've tortured other humans, they've probably seen people break with reality and shut down before, but perhaps that's a reaction beyond anything they've ever seen before. More like a Cylon being tortured? Is that what their instinct is, if they're in the same situation as Baltar? --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

==Note about the virus is incorrect==

The note:

Dr. Cottle identifies the disease as Lymphocytic encephalitis, however encephalitis is a condition (swelling of the brain) that can be caused by a pathogen, not a pathogen itself. More likely the pathogen is Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus.

When a doctor identifies a disease, he normally states the name of the disease, not the name of the virus. The note itself states that Doc Cottle identifies the "disease," not the pathogen. I think the note needs to be modified or deleted. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 20:58, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== Accessing the "Hybrid?" ==

Is that what Athena is doing? Do we know that? It just sounds odd when phrased that way. [[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 02:56, 14 November 2006 (CST)

== The antibody degradative debate? ==

Ok, the latest addition to this point is the most scientifically accurate (antibodies do not have degradative functionality)! Read the wiki articles yourself to confirm and help you understand. On a more serious note if contributors (chiefly the second one on this topic) feel that an explanation or analysis point is incorrect or poorly explained than they need to do their homework before they dispute it and make up their own science. I know its only a fan wiki on battlestar but lets not plague our site with scientific inconsistencies like in 'A measure of Salvation' (Their science advisor must of been on holiday when this was written), after all we have luxury of being able to correct ourselves in hindsight ;) [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 18:10, 15 November 2006 (CST)

:Sorry, but antibodies *do* have degradative capability, it has been known for at least 4 years now. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/298/5601/2195

::Alright, this is getting silly now. This article is talking about the antibody catalysed generation of peroxide and an ozone analogue, referring to the apparent toxicity of these products to bacterial species - no mention of RNA degradation (or any other kind of degradation for that matter) here, mate!. Im super sorry, but AB's **don't** have degradative functionality! [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 15:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:After spending over 25 years working in the clincial field (including being a lab director and now consultant), much of it involving research in imunology, immunohematology, genetics, and similar areas, I believe I know a bit more than what's presented in a few overly simplistic paragraphs in some an abbreviated article. I've dealt with far to many on the internet like yourself who reads a few sentences and brands themselves an expert. I came to this site because I believed it would be an enjoyable place to talk about my favorite show, but apparently this is just another one flled with those who prefer to hide behind their monitors and make snide comments. I'm not here to get into this type of garbage, so that's it, I'm done and out of here.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 01:07, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::There will always be people that claim to know all and others that really do belive that they know the right answer. The solution is just to provide loads of sourced for what you say. I dont know of your technical background but it would be very beneficial for all if you stayed and we can work this bit out. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:02, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::I'm sorry you feel that way, and I do have a solution to the above issue. It's a really simple solution, so here goes: all the science information needs to be sourced. I'm not talking about using links to Wikipedia (which we shouldn't really be sourcing from anyway), but I'm talking about adding sources from scientific journals and the like. References that GeorgeW should have access to, if I'm correct on that. Otherwise, I'm inclined to yank the entire thing since it isn't sourced at all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:41, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::: I have cited an excellent reference on this topic in the article, a text that was very useful to me in my first undergrad year. It would be rather difficult to cite an appropriate journal (even a review) because the topic is very basic. In addition very few people would have access to any article cited without paying or having a subscription (personal or institutional), though most major libraries are bound to stock this text. My inclusion of Wiki articles as references were due to the fact that they provide a sound and simplistic (extremely accurate, believe it or not!) explanation of the relevant topics, as I assume most people reading these articles don't have a degree in a biological science. As for George W. Bush's 25 years of clinical experience (hmm?), I'd like to know if he's willing to dispute a scientific textbook! [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 17:51, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::::Regardless of who is right or wrong (I'm NOT taking sides here), there shouldn't be debate in the analysis section. Currently it reads like:
::::A
:::::NOT (A)
::::::NOT (NOT (A))
::::Which is NOT (Encycopledic) to read. Pull out your sources, measure them (weigh them, whatever), and the winner takes all (and gets a quick blurb about A (or NOT (A)) in the "Analysis" section). Also, when citing your sources you may want to make use of the [[:Category:Citation templates|citation templates]] when citing books, journal articles, etc. That's what makes the cool little footnotes that show up in the "References" section. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:06, 16 November 2006 (CST)

== sickbay ship ==

William Adama says in the final scene:

:''Cottle's report from the virus: He thinks that it was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon '''we''' abandoned on '''the sickbay ship'''.''

*What is ''the sickbay ship''? When did this happen?
*Who does ''we'' refer to in this statement if Adama and Laura seem to believe that the beacon was left there as a ''signpost to earth''?

--[[User:Pix|Pix]] 01:35, 17 November 2006 (CST)

:From Sadgeezer's transcript:
:'''Adama, standing''': Cottle's report on the virus. He thinks that it was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon we abandoned on the sick baseship.

:'''Roslin''': Somebody sneezed, maybe.

:SO to the first, I think it was sick baseship, not sickbay ship. And the we refers to the Fleet collectively, but specifically to themselves (being the decisionmakers that decided to leave it onboard the baseship rather than bring it aboard and risk contamination). It sounds like they maybe wish they'd have picked it up now, but at least they're on the right track.
:If you check out the [[Podcast:A Measure of Salvation|podcast transcript]], you'll hear/see that actually as originally scripted they did pick up the beacon, and were going to chuck it through space at the Cylons, but the writers/producers decided that was lame and chose to leave it on the destroyed ship rather than have to deal with getting rid of it in a subsequent episode. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 17 November 2006 (CST)

::Haha, I can't believe that Adama's strange speaking rhythm in that scene completely threw me off. The interpretation, ''sick baseship'' had never entered my mind, despite making considerably more sense. --[[User:Pix|Pix]] 19:42, 17 November 2006 (CST)

== Battle Article ==
Does the little skirmish deserve a "Battle of NCD2539" article? --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 17:57, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:Sure. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:49, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Virus "Discussion" ==
Wouldn't the majority of this "discussion" fit in the [[Life sciences in the Re-imagined Series
]] article? Would make the episode article much neater. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:10, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:Why is it beyond everyone to just admit that the medical technobabble was complete BS? There's no profit to be found in coming up with excuses for it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:24, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== I don't get it. ==

Can somebody explain the premise of this episode? How does this virus threaten to become a genocidal pandemic?

There was some technobabble that I didn't quite understand (perhaps somebody can elucidate) about how an infected Cyclon who dies would somehow download the contagion along with its memories.

Accepting that the infected Cylon remains infected after resurrection, how would the contagion spread from there? Presumably the first words out of the mouth of the Cylon after resurrection would be "I'M INFECTED!!!" and the resurrection ship would quarantine itself, or simply destroy itself. Even if the carrier Cylon were unable to communicate its status, the Cylons still know about the existence of the threat (which is why the infected basestar was left marooned), and are presumably intelligent enough not to let anything leave a resurrection ship without first being checked and cleared.

I've watched the episode twice now, and I still have no idea how this virus was supposed to threaten the entire Cylon race. Can somebody explain it so that this idiot (me) can understand?

On an unrelated note, Hera, who cured Roslin's cancer in an earlier episode and has now rendered Athena immune to the Cylon plague, is starting to remind me of the magical crossbreed from [[Wikipedia:V (The Final Battle)|V: The Final Battle]]. When you're cribbing from "V," you're really scraping the bottom of the sci-fi barrel.

[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 15:17, 25 November 2006 (CST)

: Well, it's confusing and the writers would have made the episode better had they actually thought this through and presented the idea to a science advisor, such as Dr. Kevin Grazier. From what I personally can gather from watching this episode, the effects of the virus would corrupt Cylon programming. (The actual virus itself wouldn't be transmitted, since biological viruses are not transmitted during the download process, the memories -- applications and application data, if you will -- are.) Given that memories are shared between Cylon models, it's feasible that there is a central memory database that is constantly being revised (like a wiki, for instance). If you add corrupted information and that information is transmitted throughout the Cylon collective (for lack of a better term), it would cause the Cylons to stop functioning, hence the threat. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:09, 25 November 2006 (CST)

::And unlike the magic cancer-cure Athenas immunity through pregnancy appears quite credible, given that there are many ways a womans body can be affected by a pregnancy, e.g. under certain conditions involving the [[Wikipedia:Rhesus blood group system|Rhesus Factor]] a pregnancy can lead to the intoduction of genes into the mothers body, that trigger a creation of antigens that will pose a threat to the childs during all further pregnancys. In this case it would simply be that Hera possesses a slighly different form of the human antibody compatible with the cylon body. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 16:37, 25 November 2006 (CST)

OMG! No fanwank needed. Just more careful listening.

A baseship is infected with this deadly, communicable, downloadable pathogen.

The resurrection ship says, "Gee, nothing personal, but if you download to us, you'll bring the infection, and then we'd have to shut down the resurrection ship, or it would infect the rest of the fleet. So, bye!"

The Galactica comes along and asks one of the survivors why the infected ship was abandoned. It answers, "If one of us dies and is resurrected, the disease will follow, infecting the resurrection ship, and the fleet."

Apollo thinks, "OMG, did I hear that right? If an infected Cylon downloads, it will infect the whole fleet? Booyah!"

That's it. No fanwank needed. The most straightforward reading is simply that there was never any genocidal threat at all -- just some wishful thinking!

We don't even really need to explain how the pathogen is downloadable. All we need is that the Cylons were concerned that the pathogen ''might'' be downloadable. It's not like they were going to risk a resurrection ship to test that one experimentally.

Props to [[User:Keanzu|Keanzu]] for adding an inspirational question to the article.

--[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 07:47, 26 November 2006 (CST)

Slight problem with this reading: In [[Torn]], a [[Number Three]] says, "Nobody likes it, but we have to make a terrible choice. Do we attempt a rescue, risk the lives of our fleet, even our species, or do we leave them?" Keep in mind, however, she is a tabloid hack, and was probably just being sensationalistic. --[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 10:08, 26 November 2006 (CST)

== sidestepping Helo's "muder" issues ==

Galactica's plan was to execute the prisoners once it was within range of a Cylon resurrection ship. They never stated why they planned to execute all of the prisoners (including the one who had cooperated in exchange for treatment) instead of just one of them, and I think they sidestepped some interesting moral complexities that would have been present if they had planned to execute only one of them.

Helo killed the five prisoners just minutes before they were to be executed anyway. Considering the stakes, I guess he can shrug that off.

But what if the plan had been to execute only one of the prisoners, and for the other four prisoners to live out very long lives on Galactica, kept alive by a drug developed from human antigens? In that case, Helo could have thwarted the plan only by murdering four prisoners who otherwise had the rest of their lives ahead of them. (Cally's case established that retiring a skin job isn't murder in a ''legal'' sense, but it surely is in the minds of Helo and Athena, especially if the subject can't download.)

This action would have been possible to rationalize in terms of the numbers -- killing four to save the rest of the race -- but the moral issues couldn't simply have been ignored, especially considering the fact that there's no guarantee that the genocidal plan would have worked anyway. Helo would have had to grapple with the fact that, in order to destroy this potentially genocidal biological weapon, he murdered four defenseless prisoners (or five, if you include the one who was about to be killed anyway).

This series has so far shown a willingness to delve into issues of moral complexity, so I'm not going to leap to the conclusion that the writers chose the route they did for the purpose of sidestepping these complexities, but I do think it would have been more interesting (and more believable, since there really is no reason given to kill all five prisoners) if they had gone the other route.

--[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 03:30, 26 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:A Measure of Salvation/Archive 1

2006-11-26T14:14:46Z

Capedia: /* sidestepping Helo's "muder" issues */

==Picture?==
Is that picture from A Measure of Salvation? I don't remember Three and Six projecting themselves into a forest. The outfits they are wearing look like what they wore while torturing Baltar, so maybe it's from a deleted scene. Unless I've forgotten the scene for some reason, shouldn't we get a picture that actually came from the episode? -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Some Poor Writing ==

Attention to detail is what has set BSG apart from so many other science-fiction shows - including Mr. Moore's Star Trek franchises. So I was very disappointed last night to see the sloppy errors piling up deep. I'd have to see the epsiode again to list them all, but mainly them problems concerned the virus.

The scene where potentially infected Galactica crew are "quarantined", together with Sharon, in a room with cold-storage plastic flaps was ridiculous.

It's preposterous to think that a cylon would casually betray his race for the anti-viral drug. He has no assurance that he won't be double-crossed, and he certainly - even after torture - wouldn't spell out the danger the virus poses to the cylon fleet. The audience isn't stupid and neither should the Galctica crew be. Seeing Lee with a dim little lightbulb over his head was just insulting to us all.

Past episodes have cleary shown that cylon ressurection occurs over significant distances, (greater than FTL jumps), and that calls into question the fundemental logistics of Adama's infection plan.

There would be no reason to jump Galactica itself, just sending one raptor with a cylon transponder and one infected cylon would have done the trick. (Nevermind the ease with which two cylon raiders almost instantly materialize into a whole cylon fleet with a resurrectionship conveniently in tow.)

The analysis on the episode summary page provides an excellent plot device allowing the raid to "succeed" thus justifying the major build-up of the two part story. In fact, it would have made a superb three part arc.

Hypothetical episode 3: Spend some realistic period of time finding a reasonably sized cylon fleet, infect them, virus begins spreading throughout area covered by the "local" resurrection ship. Cylons scramble to head off disease, Baltar gains points by developing Hera vaccine, cylons survive but with major "body-blow" giving Galactica and fleet some breathing room as they prepare to investigate the new lead to Earth.

Please don't get me wrong, I love this show, but sci-fi writing has always been done on the cheap and it make my eyes roll as I struggle to care about characters forced through non-sensical plot contortions. Please, Mr. Moore, DON'T LET BSG SINK TO THE SAME SAD FATE! I'm trusting that this was just a hiccup not a trend.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 13:08, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:In defense of the writers, I think you are wrong on two points:
:*Jumping Galactica makes sense. In [[Scar]] Cylon Raiders are engaging in skirmishes despite the absence of a resurrection ship. A Raptor is not a big enough threat to guarantee the presence of a resurrection ship. If one isn't in range by accident the Cylons would probably engage the Raptor without it and take a minor risk of permanently loosing a few raiders. And after [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]] the Cylons could be exspected to take a closer look to any unexpected Raptors with a Cylon transponder showing up. If they destroy it without a resurrection ship in range, the plans failed. Also Racetrack stated last episode that there is a shortage of Raptors in the fleet, noone is going to be eager to sacrifice one. Jumping Galactica ensures the Cylon require lots of forces, expect lot's of casualties and have a resurrection ship nearby, though I could have done without seeing it arrive on the battlefield, that's bad and inconsistent strategy, just to make sure the audience knows that it is in range.

:*There is probably a greater timespan between arrival of the patrol and that of the strikeforce then shown onscreen. Helo manipulates the oxygen-system after the jump, nevertheless the prisoners are already dead by the time the resurrection ship appears, indicating a least a few minutes have passed. The process can be seen in [[Flight of the Phoenix]] in the firing range scene (it's likely that Helo manipulated the same system).

:Two more plotholes I noticed: How do the Colonials know the Cylon supply lines? And given that they know Athena is immune because she's given birth to a hybrid child, they should wonder if there a more human-cylon hybrids. Even without knowing that Hera is still alive, if the massive Cylon effort to create hybrids resulted in creating at least one more hybrid the cylons would take a blow, but would not be exstinct. By the way it would be nice if we would hear something about these efforts. When Hera is shown for the first time in Cylon hands would be a good opportunity to close that chapter with a throwaway line that all these efforts were fruitless and stopped. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 11:24, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: That's an interesting question -- one that I had myself, actually. Even if the effort didn't destroy the Cylon race (and I think that goal is overly optimistic), the virus would have given a serious blow to the Cylons, which would only serve to give the survivors more breathing room -- not to metion the increase in general morale, which the survivors seriously need after the farce at New Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

I would have to agree the writing is poor. The series seems to be drifting from its roots and moving into the Hollywood PC political statement world. This season has already thrown in suicide bombing and implied it was acceptable, now there is a drift into making political statements about biological weapons (even though nuclear weapons have been freely used in the past.) It seems the writers are abandoning their science fiction roots and reaching to make their own personal social or political commentary. I do hope they get back to what I considered truly exceptional science fiction and stop these editorials.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 00:06, 12 November 2006 (CST)

Followup: According to and article on the Gateworld site ([http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/10/season_three_ratings_slip_from_premiere.shtml]) the ratings have been slipping. As much as I truly love this show, I know my wife and I were both rather disgusted with the previous inclusion of the suicide bombers and now the “loss of humanity” references associated with the potential use of biological weapons. I have also heard complaints from two of our friends. I’m concerned that if this direction is continued it will not only ruin the show, it will also drive away viewers resulting in cancelation. As a long time science fiction fan (I even remember watching the original showings of Lost in Space and the first Star Trek) this has been my all time favorite show up until now. I would hate to see it have an early demise. As I mentioned above, I hope the writers can return to science fiction and entertainment.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 16:13, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: Ratings have been slipping for ''SG-1'' and ''Atlantis'' as well; neither have the strong allegories to today's world, or the world of yesteryear for that matter. So I don't fully buy that there's a direct correlation between the creative direction BSG is going and the loss in viewership. Actually, one could probably argue (more successfully in my informed opinion) that the loss of ratings has more to do with Sci-Fi's scheduling decisions of breaking up the "Three Amigos" (''Stargate SG-1'', ''Stargate Atlantis'' and ''Battlestar Galactica''). As for the "loss of humanity" and suicide bombing themes, these have existed since the miniseries (Number Five's suicide bombing attempt in "[[Litmus]]" and Adama's speech in the miniseries and platitudes since then). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::: In my very informed opinion, I would have to disagree on several points. While time slots and lineup can affect ratings, this usually is reflected in those of the shows with the weaker individual draw. Galactica is a cornerstone show which should draw up the ratings for those around it rather than have such a slump from a lineup change.

::: As for the previous Friday lineup, SG-1 ratings have steadily declined since the departure of Richard Dean Anderson. His departure also seemed to coincide with decline in the quality of the writing, though I’m not convinced the two were related rather than just coincidental. I have always believed the SG Atlantis was the weak link in that lineup and was carried by its position between SG-1 and BSG. As mentioned in the article I referenced above, Dr. Who, which leads into BSG, has had poor ratings this season. I believe the replacement of the very likable actor playing the title role, though consistent with the original BBC series, was a detriment to this series. In addition, this season’s writing has seemed less creative and entertaining. I greatly enjoyed their first season, but have found the current one to be rather dull and uninteresting. This certainly doesn’t help with the Galactica ratings, but I don’t believe it is the major factor in the decline.

::: The introduction of controversial topics into plot lines is often risky, particularly with science fiction which is typically considered pure escapism, even when it has a dark element like BSG (i.e.: The potential extermination of the human race and the continued threat from the Cylon.) Generally, Sci-Fi fans want to escape the real world and be entertained, not lectured on the writers’ political or social views of modern events. While any controversial topic is a risk, the introduction of those that are currently so polarizing is almost a guarantee of distancing a significant portion of your fan base.

::: You associated the bombing executed by a Cylon against those carried out by human suicide bombers. The two aren’t even remotely comparable. The first was not executed by a human, was not condoned by the humans, and was executed by an individual who (as already had been established) would be reborn (“downloaded”) into a new body, but as the same individual. The later was not only condoned by members of the upper human leadership, it was presented as a reasonable and acceptable approach in a given situation – a strong statement considering current world events. (As someone who’s nephew’s squad was attacked by the first suicide bomber in the gulf war, killing many of his squad just a few yards in front of him, I will freely admit to strong personal feelings in this matter. None the less, such controversial plot elements are invariably going to strongly offend a significant number of viewers.) The inference that the humans must limit their use of weapons against an enemy bent on the genocide of humanity is another PC component. Biological weapons as a plot element would have been better completely left out rather than used as a mechanism for additional political commentary. Remember, people watch for entertainment, not a reminder of current events or a thinly disguised lecture from Hollywood writers on their political and social opinions.

::: It is also rather telling that the ratings dropped rather significantly after the season 3 premiere (where suicide bombings by humans were introduced and condoned.) I’ll be interested in seeing how the ratings are affected after this latest one sided (read: “PC”) foray into contemporary controversial issues.

::: --[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 20:40, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::::I doubt that the suicide bombings in Occupation and Precipice were "condoned" by the show. Roslin didn't like them. Tigh, who planned them, thought they were bad. Even Baltar (who's been developing a conscience this season, thank the Gods) didn't like them. The first was a waste of life and counterproductive, causing a massive Cylon freakout that would have killed off Roslin, Zarek, Cally and a bunch of other people if the resistance hadn't saved them in the last minute. The second took down the power grid, which was more helpful, but it should be noted that in this case the bomber didn't kill any civilians, just herself and some Cylons. Tigh is still suffering because of the choices he made on New Caprica, and it doesn't look like he's coming out of those moral woods anytime soon.

::::Furthermore, I don't think the show has condemned the use of the Cylon virus, either. Roslin was all about it, after all, and I don't think there's anything less PC than a schoolteacher with a Messiah complex jonesing for some genocide. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 22:33, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:::: The use of nuclear weapons are logical in a space setting where great distances are involved and ships are heavily armoured. I would suspect, though, that a Presidential order would have been required to use nukes on the surface of a populated planet. The use of bio-weapons would probably have similiar restrictions because of their nature. I disagree that this show was PC. The weapon that the humans stumbled upon had a unique ability to wipe out the entire race of cyclons. To use it does carry far more ethical problems than simply using a nuke on a basestar. To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 09:39, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:::::''To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet''--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]]

:::::I think that's a poor analogy, since the Japanese were not a threat to kill every American person on the planet, which is what the Cylons are a threat to do (notwithstanding Helo's odious observation that "they tried to live with us on New Caprica"). The humans and Cylons are in a war of absolute total commitment, and it's difficult to imagine how the war can end until one side or the other ceases to exist. In that scenario, you probably have to choose the other side to be the one that ceases to exist.

:::::On the other hand, one might argue that the numbers involved are so staggering that, even to a human, the lives of billions of Cylons must be valued over the lives of forty-some thousand humans. (I'm making a wild guess that the Cylon population is comparable to the pre-war human population of the 12 colonies.) This argument of course assumes that Cylons are "alive" in the same sense as people and are not merely machines. It also ignores the question of whether there is an Earth with a population of billions of humans who need the colonial fleet to survive and give them a heads-up if ''they'' are to have a fighting chance to survive a Cylon attack.

:::::[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 16:04, 25 November 2006 (CST)

:::I think the show has been attacking issues that are important in our modern world since the beginning. Basic issues like balance of power, whether civilian government should stay in power during a massive crisis and war, religion in general, how to treat thouse different from yourselves (the show has been very ambivalent about killing Cylons, even though they are "just robots"), Baltar's initial refusal to believe in the gods or a god. It has even tackled thitngs like terrorism as a means to an end (Zarek was introduced at the beginning of the first season), abortion, infanticide, torture, treatment of prisoners. In all, it has been very current and politically involved since the beginning. However, with the first 4 episodes of season 3, it took a decidedly controversial and risky turn by depicting our favorite valiant and noble heros under brutal occupation. The writers have guts, and their ratings may have suffered, but they are doing the same thing they've been doing since the beginning of the show. It's just now a lot of poeple who watch TV don't agree with the particular direction the show took. However, even then, it left the viewer to choose for him or herself what to think, it was again ambivalent, which may be what makes it the best show on TV. No, the show will not supply you with easy answers and moral certitude to very important current questions. But that's a good thing, not a bad thing. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 15:49, 13 November 2006 (EST)

::::I have to agree that it's been dealing with controversial issues from the start. One thing I've learned about BsG from watching it is that every time you think there's a line they won't cross, they seem to cross it. I think Yaneh has it right. Now, with them back in space, I do think it might turn more towards classic sci-fi, but I do agree this is not an unprecedented pattern. As for the writing on this particular episode, I think there were some odd references or slip-ups, which to my mind were made for the sole purpose of bailing Galactica out of the responsibility for a genocide. But I'm not going to judge the whole show at this point--it's WAY too early for that. I'm even more of a music buff than a TV buff, and I don't write off a band until there are 3 stinkers in a row. Let's wait and see if this a pattern before we write BsG off. --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

My additional $.02 - I'm going to have to disagree with my esteemed colleague from across the aisle, GeorgeW. I have no complaint with the political/moral questions that the writers have chosen to tackle this season. I do not believe that sci-fi was ever supposed to be purely escapist. Think of Frank Herbert's Dune which was essentially a political novel in sci-fi clothing. And the reason it is still regarded as one of the greatest sci-fi novels ever written was '''attention to detail!'''

What's made BSG so engaging has been its willingness to tackle the dark and gritty sides of a sci-fi story and thus make it far more real. This season's espisodes especially, have dug into tough questions about the justification of actions taken by a society being oppressed and even threatened with extinction - and kudos to Mr. Moore and Co. for going there! While they chose Nazi-esque imagery to illustrate the cylon occupation of New Caprica, the physical and psycological torture depicted there is exactly what Palestinians have been living with every day for decades, and I think it's extraordinary that this show has dared to ask American audiences to speculate how they would react if the same sort of conditions were imposed on us.

Consider Fox's 24, an unabashed advertisement for torture in the name of patriotism - nothing more than fearmongering to stir up a post-911 traumatised public into a state of jackboot-stamping, flag-waving paranoia, willing to hand over their civil liberties to facists. As grim as the first two episodes of this BSG season were, it was refreshing to see some element of pop culture actually asking viewers to stop and think - rather than just telling them what to believe.

If there's been a drop in ratings as a result of this storyline, it's only because so many Americans have let their capacity for critical thought atrophy over the last 40 years. (But just as likely, as was stated above, it was Sci-fi's choice to break up its powerhouse Friday night schedule. Frankly, canning Atlantis and popping the new Doctor Who episodes into the vacant slot would have been the prefered alternative.)

So back to my original point. With a wink and a nod to technobabble - the show's about homicidal robots for gosh sake - can we please just pay attention to the logical details. It's science-fiction, and we, the viewers, have already given the writers our willing suspension of disbelief. I'm just asking not to be abused with rediculous and downright stupid plot loopholes and gaffes in return for the privilege. I'm not writing off BSG either. Yet. But this last episode, which held such promise for having raised the stakes to the level of genocide, fell utterly flat - tripped up by the banana peels of sloppy writing.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 16:54, 14 November 2006 (CST)

In response to the original poster, I agree with you. This is not one of the show's shining moments.

--[[User:Crazyrabbits|Crazyrabbits]] 10:00, 15 November 2006 (CST)

== Explanations ==

A note about the Resurection ship jumping into the battle... it would seem that this is actually a good tactical move from the Cylon perspective. After Pegasus and Galactica easily destroyed the first resurrection ship and it's escorts, it would be prudent for the Cylons to keep the new ship with their fleet... even if this means taking it into battle with them. From their point of view it might look as if Galactica was trying to sucker the baseships away from the resurrection ship so the colonials could attack it. They've already used the "sucker" strategy a number of times, we could just be seeing a Cylon reaction to that strategy. Bringing the ship with them would negate such a threat as several basestars (more than enough to hold galactica off) would be able to cover for it.

As far as supply lines, it would figure that Galactica would know about this. Basic military strategy is to harass or at least keep an eye on enemy supply lines.

Also a note about the raptors and their missiles. The colonials may have found, after the battle over new caprica, that the missile attachments for the raptors were effective and could be adapted for other (combat) uses as well. It would also figure that after the loss of Pegasus, the colonials would be trying everything they could to increase firepower. This is probably just a jury-rig solution for increasing galactica's firepower.

: And all this has yet to be supported on screen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:45, 13 November 2006 (CST)

::In [[The Captain's Hand]] Admiral Adama orders a recon of 5 Raptors, 2 of them SAR and 3 Escort. Though never seen onscreen heavily armed Raptors must have been around for some time. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:57, 13 November 2006 (CST)

: It is also distinctly possible that the weapon pods were not available until the arrival of the Pegasus. The cache at Ragnar Anchorage was likely primarily the weapons themselves, and not a supply of launchers or similar hardware. Since Galactica was slated for retirement and Pegasus was fully operational it is very likely the later ship was much better equipped with combat military hardware.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 22:30, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== About Gaeta ==
Looking at the question here:

: Why is Gaeta so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D'Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?

Er, well, the last time Gaeta saw Baltar, he gave him a gun and told him his last chance at redemption was to stop Three from setting off the nuke. Given that the nuke didn't go off, it isn't unreasonable to believe Baltar was successful, and that in succeeding he would have either died or been stranded on New Caprica. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 02:50, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:Gaeta knew that he was chummy with the Cylons. For him to convince them not to detonate the nuke (not hard, given that it would be at best a symbolic gesture) and still make it off the planet alive is well within the realm of possibility. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==A quick battle==

I was just wondering but is the skirmish with Galactica and the Basestars going to be added into the Second Cylon War or not? Sure it was short but it still had combat and casualties so it should be added to the list. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:54, 13 November 2006 (CST)
: Sure, I don't see why not. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:10, 13 November 2006 (CST)

Should it be known as a battle or more of a skirmish? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:21, 22 November 2006 (CST)

==Baltar's Torture==

This is just pure speculation for speculation's sake, but I can't help thinking something more than Three being "touched" by Baltar's insane screaming of "don't stop..." "I believe in you" and "I love you with all my heart" (with internal Six's coaching) is going on in this scene. Three's indiference at the onset of her torturing, and her musing over which torture tool she should use doesnt seem like it could be changed or swayed by anything Baltar would say. i would say that judging from the torture tools they have, and their experiences on New Caprica at extracting information on detainees they know a little about torturing, it doesn't seem that Baltar saying anything he could to stop the torture would be unexpected. This leads me to wonder about exactly what he did say with the help of internal Six. perhaps those phrases, or the way he said it struck something in Three that only Cylons are aware of...maybe it means something that neither the Viewer or Baltar is aware of...I just find it hard to believe that Three, fully prepared for torture, even having fun picking what instrument to use...could be so easily moved from some snivelling bleating human saying he loves her with all his heart...Did Six give Baltar these phrases to say because she knew they'd strike a cord in a fellow Cylon, Three's reaction was quite a reaction, and then touching his lips like she couldn't believe those words came out of his mouth.....I don't know...just speculating.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:23, 14 November 2006 (CST)

--I wonder if the incongruity of those phrases to the situation of being tortured made Three wonder if Baltar was projecting. Now, if they've tortured other humans, they've probably seen people break with reality and shut down before, but perhaps that's a reaction beyond anything they've ever seen before. More like a Cylon being tortured? Is that what their instinct is, if they're in the same situation as Baltar? --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

==Note about the virus is incorrect==

The note:

Dr. Cottle identifies the disease as Lymphocytic encephalitis, however encephalitis is a condition (swelling of the brain) that can be caused by a pathogen, not a pathogen itself. More likely the pathogen is Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus.

When a doctor identifies a disease, he normally states the name of the disease, not the name of the virus. The note itself states that Doc Cottle identifies the "disease," not the pathogen. I think the note needs to be modified or deleted. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 20:58, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== Accessing the "Hybrid?" ==

Is that what Athena is doing? Do we know that? It just sounds odd when phrased that way. [[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 02:56, 14 November 2006 (CST)

== The antibody degradative debate? ==

Ok, the latest addition to this point is the most scientifically accurate (antibodies do not have degradative functionality)! Read the wiki articles yourself to confirm and help you understand. On a more serious note if contributors (chiefly the second one on this topic) feel that an explanation or analysis point is incorrect or poorly explained than they need to do their homework before they dispute it and make up their own science. I know its only a fan wiki on battlestar but lets not plague our site with scientific inconsistencies like in 'A measure of Salvation' (Their science advisor must of been on holiday when this was written), after all we have luxury of being able to correct ourselves in hindsight ;) [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 18:10, 15 November 2006 (CST)

:Sorry, but antibodies *do* have degradative capability, it has been known for at least 4 years now. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/298/5601/2195

::Alright, this is getting silly now. This article is talking about the antibody catalysed generation of peroxide and an ozone analogue, referring to the apparent toxicity of these products to bacterial species - no mention of RNA degradation (or any other kind of degradation for that matter) here, mate!. Im super sorry, but AB's **don't** have degradative functionality! [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 15:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:After spending over 25 years working in the clincial field (including being a lab director and now consultant), much of it involving research in imunology, immunohematology, genetics, and similar areas, I believe I know a bit more than what's presented in a few overly simplistic paragraphs in some an abbreviated article. I've dealt with far to many on the internet like yourself who reads a few sentences and brands themselves an expert. I came to this site because I believed it would be an enjoyable place to talk about my favorite show, but apparently this is just another one flled with those who prefer to hide behind their monitors and make snide comments. I'm not here to get into this type of garbage, so that's it, I'm done and out of here.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 01:07, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::There will always be people that claim to know all and others that really do belive that they know the right answer. The solution is just to provide loads of sourced for what you say. I dont know of your technical background but it would be very beneficial for all if you stayed and we can work this bit out. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:02, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::I'm sorry you feel that way, and I do have a solution to the above issue. It's a really simple solution, so here goes: all the science information needs to be sourced. I'm not talking about using links to Wikipedia (which we shouldn't really be sourcing from anyway), but I'm talking about adding sources from scientific journals and the like. References that GeorgeW should have access to, if I'm correct on that. Otherwise, I'm inclined to yank the entire thing since it isn't sourced at all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:41, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::: I have cited an excellent reference on this topic in the article, a text that was very useful to me in my first undergrad year. It would be rather difficult to cite an appropriate journal (even a review) because the topic is very basic. In addition very few people would have access to any article cited without paying or having a subscription (personal or institutional), though most major libraries are bound to stock this text. My inclusion of Wiki articles as references were due to the fact that they provide a sound and simplistic (extremely accurate, believe it or not!) explanation of the relevant topics, as I assume most people reading these articles don't have a degree in a biological science. As for George W. Bush's 25 years of clinical experience (hmm?), I'd like to know if he's willing to dispute a scientific textbook! [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 17:51, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::::Regardless of who is right or wrong (I'm NOT taking sides here), there shouldn't be debate in the analysis section. Currently it reads like:
::::A
:::::NOT (A)
::::::NOT (NOT (A))
::::Which is NOT (Encycopledic) to read. Pull out your sources, measure them (weigh them, whatever), and the winner takes all (and gets a quick blurb about A (or NOT (A)) in the "Analysis" section). Also, when citing your sources you may want to make use of the [[:Category:Citation templates|citation templates]] when citing books, journal articles, etc. That's what makes the cool little footnotes that show up in the "References" section. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:06, 16 November 2006 (CST)

== sickbay ship ==

William Adama says in the final scene:

:''Cottle's report from the virus: He thinks that it was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon '''we''' abandoned on '''the sickbay ship'''.''

*What is ''the sickbay ship''? When did this happen?
*Who does ''we'' refer to in this statement if Adama and Laura seem to believe that the beacon was left there as a ''signpost to earth''?

--[[User:Pix|Pix]] 01:35, 17 November 2006 (CST)

:From Sadgeezer's transcript:
:'''Adama, standing''': Cottle's report on the virus. He thinks that it was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon we abandoned on the sick baseship.

:'''Roslin''': Somebody sneezed, maybe.

:SO to the first, I think it was sick baseship, not sickbay ship. And the we refers to the Fleet collectively, but specifically to themselves (being the decisionmakers that decided to leave it onboard the baseship rather than bring it aboard and risk contamination). It sounds like they maybe wish they'd have picked it up now, but at least they're on the right track.
:If you check out the [[Podcast:A Measure of Salvation|podcast transcript]], you'll hear/see that actually as originally scripted they did pick up the beacon, and were going to chuck it through space at the Cylons, but the writers/producers decided that was lame and chose to leave it on the destroyed ship rather than have to deal with getting rid of it in a subsequent episode. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 17 November 2006 (CST)

::Haha, I can't believe that Adama's strange speaking rhythm in that scene completely threw me off. The interpretation, ''sick baseship'' had never entered my mind, despite making considerably more sense. --[[User:Pix|Pix]] 19:42, 17 November 2006 (CST)

== Battle Article ==
Does the little skirmish deserve a "Battle of NCD2539" article? --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 17:57, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:Sure. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:49, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Virus "Discussion" ==
Wouldn't the majority of this "discussion" fit in the [[Life sciences in the Re-imagined Series
]] article? Would make the episode article much neater. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:10, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:Why is it beyond everyone to just admit that the medical technobabble was complete BS? There's no profit to be found in coming up with excuses for it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:24, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== I don't get it. ==

Can somebody explain the premise of this episode? How does this virus threaten to become a genocidal pandemic?

There was some technobabble that I didn't quite understand (perhaps somebody can elucidate) about how an infected Cyclon who dies would somehow download the contagion along with its memories.

Accepting that the infected Cylon remains infected after resurrection, how would the contagion spread from there? Presumably the first words out of the mouth of the Cylon after resurrection would be "I'M INFECTED!!!" and the resurrection ship would quarantine itself, or simply destroy itself. Even if the carrier Cylon were unable to communicate its status, the Cylons still know about the existence of the threat (which is why the infected basestar was left marooned), and are presumably intelligent enough not to let anything leave a resurrection ship without first being checked and cleared.

I've watched the episode twice now, and I still have no idea how this virus was supposed to threaten the entire Cylon race. Can somebody explain it so that this idiot (me) can understand?

On an unrelated note, Hera, who cured Roslin's cancer in an earlier episode and has now rendered Athena immune to the Cylon plague, is starting to remind me of the magical crossbreed from [[Wikipedia:V (The Final Battle)|V: The Final Battle]]. When you're cribbing from "V," you're really scraping the bottom of the sci-fi barrel.

[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 15:17, 25 November 2006 (CST)

: Well, it's confusing and the writers would have made the episode better had they actually thought this through and presented the idea to a science advisor, such as Dr. Kevin Grazier. From what I personally can gather from watching this episode, the effects of the virus would corrupt Cylon programming. (The actual virus itself wouldn't be transmitted, since biological viruses are not transmitted during the download process, the memories -- applications and application data, if you will -- are.) Given that memories are shared between Cylon models, it's feasible that there is a central memory database that is constantly being revised (like a wiki, for instance). If you add corrupted information and that information is transmitted throughout the Cylon collective (for lack of a better term), it would cause the Cylons to stop functioning, hence the threat. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:09, 25 November 2006 (CST)

::And unlike the magic cancer-cure Athenas immunity through pregnancy appears quite credible, given that there are many ways a womans body can be affected by a pregnancy, e.g. under certain conditions involving the [[Wikipedia:Rhesus blood group system|Rhesus Factor]] a pregnancy can lead to the intoduction of genes into the mothers body, that trigger a creation of antigens that will pose a threat to the childs during all further pregnancys. In this case it would simply be that Hera possesses a slighly different form of the human antibody compatible with the cylon body. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 16:37, 25 November 2006 (CST)

OMG! No fanwank needed. Just more careful listening.

A baseship is infected with this deadly, communicable, downloadable pathogen.

The resurrection ship says, "Gee, nothing personal, but if you download to us, you'll bring the infection, and then we'd have to shut down the resurrection ship, or it would infect the rest of the fleet. So, bye!"

The Galactica comes along and asks one of the survivors why the infected ship was abandoned. It answers, "If one of us dies and is resurrected, the disease will follow, infecting the resurrection ship, and the fleet."

Apollo thinks, "OMG, did I hear that right? If an infected Cylon downloads, it will infect the whole fleet? Booyah!"

That's it. No fanwank needed. The most straightforward reading is simply that there was never any genocidal threat at all -- just some wishful thinking!

We don't even really need to explain how the pathogen is downloadable. All we need is that the Cylons were concerned that the pathogen ''might'' be downloadable. It's not like they were going to risk a resurrection ship to test that one experimentally.

Props to [[User:Keanzu|Keanzu]] for adding an inspirational question to the article.

--[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 07:47, 26 November 2006 (CST)

== sidestepping Helo's "muder" issues ==

Galactica's plan was to execute the prisoners once it was within range of a Cylon resurrection ship. They never stated why they planned to execute all of the prisoners (including the one who had cooperated in exchange for treatment) instead of just one of them, and I think they sidestepped some interesting moral complexities that would have been present if they had planned to execute only one of them.

Helo killed the five prisoners just minutes before they were to be executed anyway. Considering the stakes, I guess he can shrug that off.

But what if the plan had been to execute only one of the prisoners, and for the other four prisoners to live out very long lives on Galactica, kept alive by a drug developed from human antigens? In that case, Helo could have thwarted the plan only by murdering four prisoners who otherwise had the rest of their lives ahead of them. (Cally's case established that retiring a skin job isn't murder in a ''legal'' sense, but it surely is in the minds of Helo and Athena, especially if the subject can't download.)

This action would have been possible to rationalize in terms of the numbers -- killing four to save the rest of the race -- but the moral issues couldn't simply have been ignored, especially considering the fact that there's no guarantee that the genocidal plan would have worked anyway. Helo would have had to grapple with the fact that, in order to destroy this potentially genocidal biological weapon, he murdered four defenseless prisoners (or five, if you include the one who was about to be killed anyway).

This series has so far shown a willingness to delve into issues of moral complexity, so I'm not going to leap to the conclusion that the writers chose the route they did for the purpose of sidestepping these complexities, but I do think it would have been more interesting (and more believable, since there really is no reason given to kill all five prisoners) if they had gone the other route.

--[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 03:30, 26 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:A Measure of Salvation/Archive 1

2006-11-26T14:01:20Z

Capedia: /* I don't get it. */

==Picture?==
Is that picture from A Measure of Salvation? I don't remember Three and Six projecting themselves into a forest. The outfits they are wearing look like what they wore while torturing Baltar, so maybe it's from a deleted scene. Unless I've forgotten the scene for some reason, shouldn't we get a picture that actually came from the episode? -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Some Poor Writing ==

Attention to detail is what has set BSG apart from so many other science-fiction shows - including Mr. Moore's Star Trek franchises. So I was very disappointed last night to see the sloppy errors piling up deep. I'd have to see the epsiode again to list them all, but mainly them problems concerned the virus.

The scene where potentially infected Galactica crew are "quarantined", together with Sharon, in a room with cold-storage plastic flaps was ridiculous.

It's preposterous to think that a cylon would casually betray his race for the anti-viral drug. He has no assurance that he won't be double-crossed, and he certainly - even after torture - wouldn't spell out the danger the virus poses to the cylon fleet. The audience isn't stupid and neither should the Galctica crew be. Seeing Lee with a dim little lightbulb over his head was just insulting to us all.

Past episodes have cleary shown that cylon ressurection occurs over significant distances, (greater than FTL jumps), and that calls into question the fundemental logistics of Adama's infection plan.

There would be no reason to jump Galactica itself, just sending one raptor with a cylon transponder and one infected cylon would have done the trick. (Nevermind the ease with which two cylon raiders almost instantly materialize into a whole cylon fleet with a resurrectionship conveniently in tow.)

The analysis on the episode summary page provides an excellent plot device allowing the raid to "succeed" thus justifying the major build-up of the two part story. In fact, it would have made a superb three part arc.

Hypothetical episode 3: Spend some realistic period of time finding a reasonably sized cylon fleet, infect them, virus begins spreading throughout area covered by the "local" resurrection ship. Cylons scramble to head off disease, Baltar gains points by developing Hera vaccine, cylons survive but with major "body-blow" giving Galactica and fleet some breathing room as they prepare to investigate the new lead to Earth.

Please don't get me wrong, I love this show, but sci-fi writing has always been done on the cheap and it make my eyes roll as I struggle to care about characters forced through non-sensical plot contortions. Please, Mr. Moore, DON'T LET BSG SINK TO THE SAME SAD FATE! I'm trusting that this was just a hiccup not a trend.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 13:08, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:In defense of the writers, I think you are wrong on two points:
:*Jumping Galactica makes sense. In [[Scar]] Cylon Raiders are engaging in skirmishes despite the absence of a resurrection ship. A Raptor is not a big enough threat to guarantee the presence of a resurrection ship. If one isn't in range by accident the Cylons would probably engage the Raptor without it and take a minor risk of permanently loosing a few raiders. And after [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]] the Cylons could be exspected to take a closer look to any unexpected Raptors with a Cylon transponder showing up. If they destroy it without a resurrection ship in range, the plans failed. Also Racetrack stated last episode that there is a shortage of Raptors in the fleet, noone is going to be eager to sacrifice one. Jumping Galactica ensures the Cylon require lots of forces, expect lot's of casualties and have a resurrection ship nearby, though I could have done without seeing it arrive on the battlefield, that's bad and inconsistent strategy, just to make sure the audience knows that it is in range.

:*There is probably a greater timespan between arrival of the patrol and that of the strikeforce then shown onscreen. Helo manipulates the oxygen-system after the jump, nevertheless the prisoners are already dead by the time the resurrection ship appears, indicating a least a few minutes have passed. The process can be seen in [[Flight of the Phoenix]] in the firing range scene (it's likely that Helo manipulated the same system).

:Two more plotholes I noticed: How do the Colonials know the Cylon supply lines? And given that they know Athena is immune because she's given birth to a hybrid child, they should wonder if there a more human-cylon hybrids. Even without knowing that Hera is still alive, if the massive Cylon effort to create hybrids resulted in creating at least one more hybrid the cylons would take a blow, but would not be exstinct. By the way it would be nice if we would hear something about these efforts. When Hera is shown for the first time in Cylon hands would be a good opportunity to close that chapter with a throwaway line that all these efforts were fruitless and stopped. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 11:24, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: That's an interesting question -- one that I had myself, actually. Even if the effort didn't destroy the Cylon race (and I think that goal is overly optimistic), the virus would have given a serious blow to the Cylons, which would only serve to give the survivors more breathing room -- not to metion the increase in general morale, which the survivors seriously need after the farce at New Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

I would have to agree the writing is poor. The series seems to be drifting from its roots and moving into the Hollywood PC political statement world. This season has already thrown in suicide bombing and implied it was acceptable, now there is a drift into making political statements about biological weapons (even though nuclear weapons have been freely used in the past.) It seems the writers are abandoning their science fiction roots and reaching to make their own personal social or political commentary. I do hope they get back to what I considered truly exceptional science fiction and stop these editorials.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 00:06, 12 November 2006 (CST)

Followup: According to and article on the Gateworld site ([http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/10/season_three_ratings_slip_from_premiere.shtml]) the ratings have been slipping. As much as I truly love this show, I know my wife and I were both rather disgusted with the previous inclusion of the suicide bombers and now the “loss of humanity” references associated with the potential use of biological weapons. I have also heard complaints from two of our friends. I’m concerned that if this direction is continued it will not only ruin the show, it will also drive away viewers resulting in cancelation. As a long time science fiction fan (I even remember watching the original showings of Lost in Space and the first Star Trek) this has been my all time favorite show up until now. I would hate to see it have an early demise. As I mentioned above, I hope the writers can return to science fiction and entertainment.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 16:13, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: Ratings have been slipping for ''SG-1'' and ''Atlantis'' as well; neither have the strong allegories to today's world, or the world of yesteryear for that matter. So I don't fully buy that there's a direct correlation between the creative direction BSG is going and the loss in viewership. Actually, one could probably argue (more successfully in my informed opinion) that the loss of ratings has more to do with Sci-Fi's scheduling decisions of breaking up the "Three Amigos" (''Stargate SG-1'', ''Stargate Atlantis'' and ''Battlestar Galactica''). As for the "loss of humanity" and suicide bombing themes, these have existed since the miniseries (Number Five's suicide bombing attempt in "[[Litmus]]" and Adama's speech in the miniseries and platitudes since then). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::: In my very informed opinion, I would have to disagree on several points. While time slots and lineup can affect ratings, this usually is reflected in those of the shows with the weaker individual draw. Galactica is a cornerstone show which should draw up the ratings for those around it rather than have such a slump from a lineup change.

::: As for the previous Friday lineup, SG-1 ratings have steadily declined since the departure of Richard Dean Anderson. His departure also seemed to coincide with decline in the quality of the writing, though I’m not convinced the two were related rather than just coincidental. I have always believed the SG Atlantis was the weak link in that lineup and was carried by its position between SG-1 and BSG. As mentioned in the article I referenced above, Dr. Who, which leads into BSG, has had poor ratings this season. I believe the replacement of the very likable actor playing the title role, though consistent with the original BBC series, was a detriment to this series. In addition, this season’s writing has seemed less creative and entertaining. I greatly enjoyed their first season, but have found the current one to be rather dull and uninteresting. This certainly doesn’t help with the Galactica ratings, but I don’t believe it is the major factor in the decline.

::: The introduction of controversial topics into plot lines is often risky, particularly with science fiction which is typically considered pure escapism, even when it has a dark element like BSG (i.e.: The potential extermination of the human race and the continued threat from the Cylon.) Generally, Sci-Fi fans want to escape the real world and be entertained, not lectured on the writers’ political or social views of modern events. While any controversial topic is a risk, the introduction of those that are currently so polarizing is almost a guarantee of distancing a significant portion of your fan base.

::: You associated the bombing executed by a Cylon against those carried out by human suicide bombers. The two aren’t even remotely comparable. The first was not executed by a human, was not condoned by the humans, and was executed by an individual who (as already had been established) would be reborn (“downloaded”) into a new body, but as the same individual. The later was not only condoned by members of the upper human leadership, it was presented as a reasonable and acceptable approach in a given situation – a strong statement considering current world events. (As someone who’s nephew’s squad was attacked by the first suicide bomber in the gulf war, killing many of his squad just a few yards in front of him, I will freely admit to strong personal feelings in this matter. None the less, such controversial plot elements are invariably going to strongly offend a significant number of viewers.) The inference that the humans must limit their use of weapons against an enemy bent on the genocide of humanity is another PC component. Biological weapons as a plot element would have been better completely left out rather than used as a mechanism for additional political commentary. Remember, people watch for entertainment, not a reminder of current events or a thinly disguised lecture from Hollywood writers on their political and social opinions.

::: It is also rather telling that the ratings dropped rather significantly after the season 3 premiere (where suicide bombings by humans were introduced and condoned.) I’ll be interested in seeing how the ratings are affected after this latest one sided (read: “PC”) foray into contemporary controversial issues.

::: --[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 20:40, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::::I doubt that the suicide bombings in Occupation and Precipice were "condoned" by the show. Roslin didn't like them. Tigh, who planned them, thought they were bad. Even Baltar (who's been developing a conscience this season, thank the Gods) didn't like them. The first was a waste of life and counterproductive, causing a massive Cylon freakout that would have killed off Roslin, Zarek, Cally and a bunch of other people if the resistance hadn't saved them in the last minute. The second took down the power grid, which was more helpful, but it should be noted that in this case the bomber didn't kill any civilians, just herself and some Cylons. Tigh is still suffering because of the choices he made on New Caprica, and it doesn't look like he's coming out of those moral woods anytime soon.

::::Furthermore, I don't think the show has condemned the use of the Cylon virus, either. Roslin was all about it, after all, and I don't think there's anything less PC than a schoolteacher with a Messiah complex jonesing for some genocide. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 22:33, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:::: The use of nuclear weapons are logical in a space setting where great distances are involved and ships are heavily armoured. I would suspect, though, that a Presidential order would have been required to use nukes on the surface of a populated planet. The use of bio-weapons would probably have similiar restrictions because of their nature. I disagree that this show was PC. The weapon that the humans stumbled upon had a unique ability to wipe out the entire race of cyclons. To use it does carry far more ethical problems than simply using a nuke on a basestar. To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 09:39, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:::::''To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet''--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]]

:::::I think that's a poor analogy, since the Japanese were not a threat to kill every American person on the planet, which is what the Cylons are a threat to do (notwithstanding Helo's odious observation that "they tried to live with us on New Caprica"). The humans and Cylons are in a war of absolute total commitment, and it's difficult to imagine how the war can end until one side or the other ceases to exist. In that scenario, you probably have to choose the other side to be the one that ceases to exist.

:::::On the other hand, one might argue that the numbers involved are so staggering that, even to a human, the lives of billions of Cylons must be valued over the lives of forty-some thousand humans. (I'm making a wild guess that the Cylon population is comparable to the pre-war human population of the 12 colonies.) This argument of course assumes that Cylons are "alive" in the same sense as people and are not merely machines. It also ignores the question of whether there is an Earth with a population of billions of humans who need the colonial fleet to survive and give them a heads-up if ''they'' are to have a fighting chance to survive a Cylon attack.

:::::[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 16:04, 25 November 2006 (CST)

:::I think the show has been attacking issues that are important in our modern world since the beginning. Basic issues like balance of power, whether civilian government should stay in power during a massive crisis and war, religion in general, how to treat thouse different from yourselves (the show has been very ambivalent about killing Cylons, even though they are "just robots"), Baltar's initial refusal to believe in the gods or a god. It has even tackled thitngs like terrorism as a means to an end (Zarek was introduced at the beginning of the first season), abortion, infanticide, torture, treatment of prisoners. In all, it has been very current and politically involved since the beginning. However, with the first 4 episodes of season 3, it took a decidedly controversial and risky turn by depicting our favorite valiant and noble heros under brutal occupation. The writers have guts, and their ratings may have suffered, but they are doing the same thing they've been doing since the beginning of the show. It's just now a lot of poeple who watch TV don't agree with the particular direction the show took. However, even then, it left the viewer to choose for him or herself what to think, it was again ambivalent, which may be what makes it the best show on TV. No, the show will not supply you with easy answers and moral certitude to very important current questions. But that's a good thing, not a bad thing. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 15:49, 13 November 2006 (EST)

::::I have to agree that it's been dealing with controversial issues from the start. One thing I've learned about BsG from watching it is that every time you think there's a line they won't cross, they seem to cross it. I think Yaneh has it right. Now, with them back in space, I do think it might turn more towards classic sci-fi, but I do agree this is not an unprecedented pattern. As for the writing on this particular episode, I think there were some odd references or slip-ups, which to my mind were made for the sole purpose of bailing Galactica out of the responsibility for a genocide. But I'm not going to judge the whole show at this point--it's WAY too early for that. I'm even more of a music buff than a TV buff, and I don't write off a band until there are 3 stinkers in a row. Let's wait and see if this a pattern before we write BsG off. --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

My additional $.02 - I'm going to have to disagree with my esteemed colleague from across the aisle, GeorgeW. I have no complaint with the political/moral questions that the writers have chosen to tackle this season. I do not believe that sci-fi was ever supposed to be purely escapist. Think of Frank Herbert's Dune which was essentially a political novel in sci-fi clothing. And the reason it is still regarded as one of the greatest sci-fi novels ever written was '''attention to detail!'''

What's made BSG so engaging has been its willingness to tackle the dark and gritty sides of a sci-fi story and thus make it far more real. This season's espisodes especially, have dug into tough questions about the justification of actions taken by a society being oppressed and even threatened with extinction - and kudos to Mr. Moore and Co. for going there! While they chose Nazi-esque imagery to illustrate the cylon occupation of New Caprica, the physical and psycological torture depicted there is exactly what Palestinians have been living with every day for decades, and I think it's extraordinary that this show has dared to ask American audiences to speculate how they would react if the same sort of conditions were imposed on us.

Consider Fox's 24, an unabashed advertisement for torture in the name of patriotism - nothing more than fearmongering to stir up a post-911 traumatised public into a state of jackboot-stamping, flag-waving paranoia, willing to hand over their civil liberties to facists. As grim as the first two episodes of this BSG season were, it was refreshing to see some element of pop culture actually asking viewers to stop and think - rather than just telling them what to believe.

If there's been a drop in ratings as a result of this storyline, it's only because so many Americans have let their capacity for critical thought atrophy over the last 40 years. (But just as likely, as was stated above, it was Sci-fi's choice to break up its powerhouse Friday night schedule. Frankly, canning Atlantis and popping the new Doctor Who episodes into the vacant slot would have been the prefered alternative.)

So back to my original point. With a wink and a nod to technobabble - the show's about homicidal robots for gosh sake - can we please just pay attention to the logical details. It's science-fiction, and we, the viewers, have already given the writers our willing suspension of disbelief. I'm just asking not to be abused with rediculous and downright stupid plot loopholes and gaffes in return for the privilege. I'm not writing off BSG either. Yet. But this last episode, which held such promise for having raised the stakes to the level of genocide, fell utterly flat - tripped up by the banana peels of sloppy writing.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 16:54, 14 November 2006 (CST)

In response to the original poster, I agree with you. This is not one of the show's shining moments.

--[[User:Crazyrabbits|Crazyrabbits]] 10:00, 15 November 2006 (CST)

== Explanations ==

A note about the Resurection ship jumping into the battle... it would seem that this is actually a good tactical move from the Cylon perspective. After Pegasus and Galactica easily destroyed the first resurrection ship and it's escorts, it would be prudent for the Cylons to keep the new ship with their fleet... even if this means taking it into battle with them. From their point of view it might look as if Galactica was trying to sucker the baseships away from the resurrection ship so the colonials could attack it. They've already used the "sucker" strategy a number of times, we could just be seeing a Cylon reaction to that strategy. Bringing the ship with them would negate such a threat as several basestars (more than enough to hold galactica off) would be able to cover for it.

As far as supply lines, it would figure that Galactica would know about this. Basic military strategy is to harass or at least keep an eye on enemy supply lines.

Also a note about the raptors and their missiles. The colonials may have found, after the battle over new caprica, that the missile attachments for the raptors were effective and could be adapted for other (combat) uses as well. It would also figure that after the loss of Pegasus, the colonials would be trying everything they could to increase firepower. This is probably just a jury-rig solution for increasing galactica's firepower.

: And all this has yet to be supported on screen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:45, 13 November 2006 (CST)

::In [[The Captain's Hand]] Admiral Adama orders a recon of 5 Raptors, 2 of them SAR and 3 Escort. Though never seen onscreen heavily armed Raptors must have been around for some time. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:57, 13 November 2006 (CST)

: It is also distinctly possible that the weapon pods were not available until the arrival of the Pegasus. The cache at Ragnar Anchorage was likely primarily the weapons themselves, and not a supply of launchers or similar hardware. Since Galactica was slated for retirement and Pegasus was fully operational it is very likely the later ship was much better equipped with combat military hardware.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 22:30, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== About Gaeta ==
Looking at the question here:

: Why is Gaeta so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D'Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?

Er, well, the last time Gaeta saw Baltar, he gave him a gun and told him his last chance at redemption was to stop Three from setting off the nuke. Given that the nuke didn't go off, it isn't unreasonable to believe Baltar was successful, and that in succeeding he would have either died or been stranded on New Caprica. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 02:50, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:Gaeta knew that he was chummy with the Cylons. For him to convince them not to detonate the nuke (not hard, given that it would be at best a symbolic gesture) and still make it off the planet alive is well within the realm of possibility. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==A quick battle==

I was just wondering but is the skirmish with Galactica and the Basestars going to be added into the Second Cylon War or not? Sure it was short but it still had combat and casualties so it should be added to the list. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:54, 13 November 2006 (CST)
: Sure, I don't see why not. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:10, 13 November 2006 (CST)

Should it be known as a battle or more of a skirmish? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:21, 22 November 2006 (CST)

==Baltar's Torture==

This is just pure speculation for speculation's sake, but I can't help thinking something more than Three being "touched" by Baltar's insane screaming of "don't stop..." "I believe in you" and "I love you with all my heart" (with internal Six's coaching) is going on in this scene. Three's indiference at the onset of her torturing, and her musing over which torture tool she should use doesnt seem like it could be changed or swayed by anything Baltar would say. i would say that judging from the torture tools they have, and their experiences on New Caprica at extracting information on detainees they know a little about torturing, it doesn't seem that Baltar saying anything he could to stop the torture would be unexpected. This leads me to wonder about exactly what he did say with the help of internal Six. perhaps those phrases, or the way he said it struck something in Three that only Cylons are aware of...maybe it means something that neither the Viewer or Baltar is aware of...I just find it hard to believe that Three, fully prepared for torture, even having fun picking what instrument to use...could be so easily moved from some snivelling bleating human saying he loves her with all his heart...Did Six give Baltar these phrases to say because she knew they'd strike a cord in a fellow Cylon, Three's reaction was quite a reaction, and then touching his lips like she couldn't believe those words came out of his mouth.....I don't know...just speculating.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:23, 14 November 2006 (CST)

--I wonder if the incongruity of those phrases to the situation of being tortured made Three wonder if Baltar was projecting. Now, if they've tortured other humans, they've probably seen people break with reality and shut down before, but perhaps that's a reaction beyond anything they've ever seen before. More like a Cylon being tortured? Is that what their instinct is, if they're in the same situation as Baltar? --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

==Note about the virus is incorrect==

The note:

Dr. Cottle identifies the disease as Lymphocytic encephalitis, however encephalitis is a condition (swelling of the brain) that can be caused by a pathogen, not a pathogen itself. More likely the pathogen is Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus.

When a doctor identifies a disease, he normally states the name of the disease, not the name of the virus. The note itself states that Doc Cottle identifies the "disease," not the pathogen. I think the note needs to be modified or deleted. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 20:58, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== Accessing the "Hybrid?" ==

Is that what Athena is doing? Do we know that? It just sounds odd when phrased that way. [[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 02:56, 14 November 2006 (CST)

== The antibody degradative debate? ==

Ok, the latest addition to this point is the most scientifically accurate (antibodies do not have degradative functionality)! Read the wiki articles yourself to confirm and help you understand. On a more serious note if contributors (chiefly the second one on this topic) feel that an explanation or analysis point is incorrect or poorly explained than they need to do their homework before they dispute it and make up their own science. I know its only a fan wiki on battlestar but lets not plague our site with scientific inconsistencies like in 'A measure of Salvation' (Their science advisor must of been on holiday when this was written), after all we have luxury of being able to correct ourselves in hindsight ;) [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 18:10, 15 November 2006 (CST)

:Sorry, but antibodies *do* have degradative capability, it has been known for at least 4 years now. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/298/5601/2195

::Alright, this is getting silly now. This article is talking about the antibody catalysed generation of peroxide and an ozone analogue, referring to the apparent toxicity of these products to bacterial species - no mention of RNA degradation (or any other kind of degradation for that matter) here, mate!. Im super sorry, but AB's **don't** have degradative functionality! [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 15:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:After spending over 25 years working in the clincial field (including being a lab director and now consultant), much of it involving research in imunology, immunohematology, genetics, and similar areas, I believe I know a bit more than what's presented in a few overly simplistic paragraphs in some an abbreviated article. I've dealt with far to many on the internet like yourself who reads a few sentences and brands themselves an expert. I came to this site because I believed it would be an enjoyable place to talk about my favorite show, but apparently this is just another one flled with those who prefer to hide behind their monitors and make snide comments. I'm not here to get into this type of garbage, so that's it, I'm done and out of here.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 01:07, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::There will always be people that claim to know all and others that really do belive that they know the right answer. The solution is just to provide loads of sourced for what you say. I dont know of your technical background but it would be very beneficial for all if you stayed and we can work this bit out. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:02, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::I'm sorry you feel that way, and I do have a solution to the above issue. It's a really simple solution, so here goes: all the science information needs to be sourced. I'm not talking about using links to Wikipedia (which we shouldn't really be sourcing from anyway), but I'm talking about adding sources from scientific journals and the like. References that GeorgeW should have access to, if I'm correct on that. Otherwise, I'm inclined to yank the entire thing since it isn't sourced at all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:41, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::: I have cited an excellent reference on this topic in the article, a text that was very useful to me in my first undergrad year. It would be rather difficult to cite an appropriate journal (even a review) because the topic is very basic. In addition very few people would have access to any article cited without paying or having a subscription (personal or institutional), though most major libraries are bound to stock this text. My inclusion of Wiki articles as references were due to the fact that they provide a sound and simplistic (extremely accurate, believe it or not!) explanation of the relevant topics, as I assume most people reading these articles don't have a degree in a biological science. As for George W. Bush's 25 years of clinical experience (hmm?), I'd like to know if he's willing to dispute a scientific textbook! [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 17:51, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::::Regardless of who is right or wrong (I'm NOT taking sides here), there shouldn't be debate in the analysis section. Currently it reads like:
::::A
:::::NOT (A)
::::::NOT (NOT (A))
::::Which is NOT (Encycopledic) to read. Pull out your sources, measure them (weigh them, whatever), and the winner takes all (and gets a quick blurb about A (or NOT (A)) in the "Analysis" section). Also, when citing your sources you may want to make use of the [[:Category:Citation templates|citation templates]] when citing books, journal articles, etc. That's what makes the cool little footnotes that show up in the "References" section. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:06, 16 November 2006 (CST)

== sickbay ship ==

William Adama says in the final scene:

:''Cottle's report from the virus: He thinks that it was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon '''we''' abandoned on '''the sickbay ship'''.''

*What is ''the sickbay ship''? When did this happen?
*Who does ''we'' refer to in this statement if Adama and Laura seem to believe that the beacon was left there as a ''signpost to earth''?

--[[User:Pix|Pix]] 01:35, 17 November 2006 (CST)

:From Sadgeezer's transcript:
:'''Adama, standing''': Cottle's report on the virus. He thinks that it was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon we abandoned on the sick baseship.

:'''Roslin''': Somebody sneezed, maybe.

:SO to the first, I think it was sick baseship, not sickbay ship. And the we refers to the Fleet collectively, but specifically to themselves (being the decisionmakers that decided to leave it onboard the baseship rather than bring it aboard and risk contamination). It sounds like they maybe wish they'd have picked it up now, but at least they're on the right track.
:If you check out the [[Podcast:A Measure of Salvation|podcast transcript]], you'll hear/see that actually as originally scripted they did pick up the beacon, and were going to chuck it through space at the Cylons, but the writers/producers decided that was lame and chose to leave it on the destroyed ship rather than have to deal with getting rid of it in a subsequent episode. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 17 November 2006 (CST)

::Haha, I can't believe that Adama's strange speaking rhythm in that scene completely threw me off. The interpretation, ''sick baseship'' had never entered my mind, despite making considerably more sense. --[[User:Pix|Pix]] 19:42, 17 November 2006 (CST)

== Battle Article ==
Does the little skirmish deserve a "Battle of NCD2539" article? --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 17:57, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:Sure. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:49, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Virus "Discussion" ==
Wouldn't the majority of this "discussion" fit in the [[Life sciences in the Re-imagined Series
]] article? Would make the episode article much neater. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:10, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:Why is it beyond everyone to just admit that the medical technobabble was complete BS? There's no profit to be found in coming up with excuses for it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:24, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== I don't get it. ==

Can somebody explain the premise of this episode? How does this virus threaten to become a genocidal pandemic?

There was some technobabble that I didn't quite understand (perhaps somebody can elucidate) about how an infected Cyclon who dies would somehow download the contagion along with its memories.

Accepting that the infected Cylon remains infected after resurrection, how would the contagion spread from there? Presumably the first words out of the mouth of the Cylon after resurrection would be "I'M INFECTED!!!" and the resurrection ship would quarantine itself, or simply destroy itself. Even if the carrier Cylon were unable to communicate its status, the Cylons still know about the existence of the threat (which is why the infected basestar was left marooned), and are presumably intelligent enough not to let anything leave a resurrection ship without first being checked and cleared.

I've watched the episode twice now, and I still have no idea how this virus was supposed to threaten the entire Cylon race. Can somebody explain it so that this idiot (me) can understand?

On an unrelated note, Hera, who cured Roslin's cancer in an earlier episode and has now rendered Athena immune to the Cylon plague, is starting to remind me of the magical crossbreed from [[Wikipedia:V (The Final Battle)|V: The Final Battle]]. When you're cribbing from "V," you're really scraping the bottom of the sci-fi barrel.

[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 15:17, 25 November 2006 (CST)

: Well, it's confusing and the writers would have made the episode better had they actually thought this through and presented the idea to a science advisor, such as Dr. Kevin Grazier. From what I personally can gather from watching this episode, the effects of the virus would corrupt Cylon programming. (The actual virus itself wouldn't be transmitted, since biological viruses are not transmitted during the download process, the memories -- applications and application data, if you will -- are.) Given that memories are shared between Cylon models, it's feasible that there is a central memory database that is constantly being revised (like a wiki, for instance). If you add corrupted information and that information is transmitted throughout the Cylon collective (for lack of a better term), it would cause the Cylons to stop functioning, hence the threat. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:09, 25 November 2006 (CST)

::And unlike the magic cancer-cure Athenas immunity through pregnancy appears quite credible, given that there are many ways a womans body can be affected by a pregnancy, e.g. under certain conditions involving the [[Wikipedia:Rhesus blood group system|Rhesus Factor]] a pregnancy can lead to the intoduction of genes into the mothers body, that trigger a creation of antigens that will pose a threat to the childs during all further pregnancys. In this case it would simply be that Hera possesses a slighly different form of the human antibody compatible with the cylon body. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 16:37, 25 November 2006 (CST)

OMG! No fanwank needed. Just more careful listening.

A baseship is infected with this deadly, communicable, downloadable pathogen.

The resurrection ship says, "Gee, nothing personal, but if you download to us, you'll bring the infection, and then we'd have to shut down the resurrection ship, or it would infect the rest of the fleet. So, bye!"

The Galactica comes along and asks one of the survivors why the infected ship was abandoned. It answers, "If one of us dies and is resurrected, the disease will follow, infecting the resurrection ship, and the fleet."

Apollo thinks, "OMG, did I hear that right? If an infected Cylon downloads, it will infect the whole fleet? Booyah!"

That's it. No fanwank needed. The most straightforward reading is simply that there was never any genocidal threat at all -- just some wishful thinking!

We don't even really need to explain how the pathogen is downloadable. All we need is that the Cylons were concerned that the pathogen ''might'' be downloadable. It's not like they were going to risk a resurrection ship to test that one experimentally.

Props to [[User:Keanzu|Keanzu]] for adding an inspirational question to the article.

--[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 07:47, 26 November 2006 (CST)

== sidestepping Helo's "muder" issues ==

Galactica's plan was to execute the prisoners once it was within range of a Cylon resurrection ship. They never stated why they planned to execute all of the prisoners instead of just one of them, and I think they sidestepped some interesting moral complexities that would have been present if they had planned to execute only one of them.

Helo killed the five prisoners just minutes before they were to be executed anyway. Considering the stakes, I guess he can shrug that off.

But what if the plan had been to execute only one of the prisoners, and for the other four prisoners to live out very long lives on Galactica, kept alive by a drug developed from human antigens? In that case, Helo could have thwarted the plan only by murdering four prisoners who otherwise had the rest of their lives ahead of them. (Cally's case established that retiring a skin job isn't murder in a ''legal'' sense, but it surely is in the minds of Helo and Athena, especially if the subject can't download.)

This action would have been possible to rationalize in terms of the numbers -- killing four to save the rest of the race -- but the moral issues couldn't simply have been ignored, especially considering the fact that there's no guarantee that the genocidal plan would have worked anyway. Helo would have had to grapple with the fact that, in order to destroy this potentially genocidal biological weapon, he murdered four defenseless prisoners (or five, if you include the one who was about to be killed anyway).

This series has so far shown a willingness to delve into issues of moral complexity, so I'm not going to leap to the conclusion that the writers chose the route they did for the purpose of sidestepping these complexities, but I do think it would have been more interesting (and more believable, since there really is no reason given to kill all five prisoners) if they had gone the other route.

--[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 03:30, 26 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:A Measure of Salvation/Archive 1

2006-11-26T13:47:43Z

Capedia: /* I don't get it. */

==Picture?==
Is that picture from A Measure of Salvation? I don't remember Three and Six projecting themselves into a forest. The outfits they are wearing look like what they wore while torturing Baltar, so maybe it's from a deleted scene. Unless I've forgotten the scene for some reason, shouldn't we get a picture that actually came from the episode? -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Some Poor Writing ==

Attention to detail is what has set BSG apart from so many other science-fiction shows - including Mr. Moore's Star Trek franchises. So I was very disappointed last night to see the sloppy errors piling up deep. I'd have to see the epsiode again to list them all, but mainly them problems concerned the virus.

The scene where potentially infected Galactica crew are "quarantined", together with Sharon, in a room with cold-storage plastic flaps was ridiculous.

It's preposterous to think that a cylon would casually betray his race for the anti-viral drug. He has no assurance that he won't be double-crossed, and he certainly - even after torture - wouldn't spell out the danger the virus poses to the cylon fleet. The audience isn't stupid and neither should the Galctica crew be. Seeing Lee with a dim little lightbulb over his head was just insulting to us all.

Past episodes have cleary shown that cylon ressurection occurs over significant distances, (greater than FTL jumps), and that calls into question the fundemental logistics of Adama's infection plan.

There would be no reason to jump Galactica itself, just sending one raptor with a cylon transponder and one infected cylon would have done the trick. (Nevermind the ease with which two cylon raiders almost instantly materialize into a whole cylon fleet with a resurrectionship conveniently in tow.)

The analysis on the episode summary page provides an excellent plot device allowing the raid to "succeed" thus justifying the major build-up of the two part story. In fact, it would have made a superb three part arc.

Hypothetical episode 3: Spend some realistic period of time finding a reasonably sized cylon fleet, infect them, virus begins spreading throughout area covered by the "local" resurrection ship. Cylons scramble to head off disease, Baltar gains points by developing Hera vaccine, cylons survive but with major "body-blow" giving Galactica and fleet some breathing room as they prepare to investigate the new lead to Earth.

Please don't get me wrong, I love this show, but sci-fi writing has always been done on the cheap and it make my eyes roll as I struggle to care about characters forced through non-sensical plot contortions. Please, Mr. Moore, DON'T LET BSG SINK TO THE SAME SAD FATE! I'm trusting that this was just a hiccup not a trend.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 13:08, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:In defense of the writers, I think you are wrong on two points:
:*Jumping Galactica makes sense. In [[Scar]] Cylon Raiders are engaging in skirmishes despite the absence of a resurrection ship. A Raptor is not a big enough threat to guarantee the presence of a resurrection ship. If one isn't in range by accident the Cylons would probably engage the Raptor without it and take a minor risk of permanently loosing a few raiders. And after [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]] the Cylons could be exspected to take a closer look to any unexpected Raptors with a Cylon transponder showing up. If they destroy it without a resurrection ship in range, the plans failed. Also Racetrack stated last episode that there is a shortage of Raptors in the fleet, noone is going to be eager to sacrifice one. Jumping Galactica ensures the Cylon require lots of forces, expect lot's of casualties and have a resurrection ship nearby, though I could have done without seeing it arrive on the battlefield, that's bad and inconsistent strategy, just to make sure the audience knows that it is in range.

:*There is probably a greater timespan between arrival of the patrol and that of the strikeforce then shown onscreen. Helo manipulates the oxygen-system after the jump, nevertheless the prisoners are already dead by the time the resurrection ship appears, indicating a least a few minutes have passed. The process can be seen in [[Flight of the Phoenix]] in the firing range scene (it's likely that Helo manipulated the same system).

:Two more plotholes I noticed: How do the Colonials know the Cylon supply lines? And given that they know Athena is immune because she's given birth to a hybrid child, they should wonder if there a more human-cylon hybrids. Even without knowing that Hera is still alive, if the massive Cylon effort to create hybrids resulted in creating at least one more hybrid the cylons would take a blow, but would not be exstinct. By the way it would be nice if we would hear something about these efforts. When Hera is shown for the first time in Cylon hands would be a good opportunity to close that chapter with a throwaway line that all these efforts were fruitless and stopped. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 11:24, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: That's an interesting question -- one that I had myself, actually. Even if the effort didn't destroy the Cylon race (and I think that goal is overly optimistic), the virus would have given a serious blow to the Cylons, which would only serve to give the survivors more breathing room -- not to metion the increase in general morale, which the survivors seriously need after the farce at New Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

I would have to agree the writing is poor. The series seems to be drifting from its roots and moving into the Hollywood PC political statement world. This season has already thrown in suicide bombing and implied it was acceptable, now there is a drift into making political statements about biological weapons (even though nuclear weapons have been freely used in the past.) It seems the writers are abandoning their science fiction roots and reaching to make their own personal social or political commentary. I do hope they get back to what I considered truly exceptional science fiction and stop these editorials.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 00:06, 12 November 2006 (CST)

Followup: According to and article on the Gateworld site ([http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/10/season_three_ratings_slip_from_premiere.shtml]) the ratings have been slipping. As much as I truly love this show, I know my wife and I were both rather disgusted with the previous inclusion of the suicide bombers and now the “loss of humanity” references associated with the potential use of biological weapons. I have also heard complaints from two of our friends. I’m concerned that if this direction is continued it will not only ruin the show, it will also drive away viewers resulting in cancelation. As a long time science fiction fan (I even remember watching the original showings of Lost in Space and the first Star Trek) this has been my all time favorite show up until now. I would hate to see it have an early demise. As I mentioned above, I hope the writers can return to science fiction and entertainment.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 16:13, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: Ratings have been slipping for ''SG-1'' and ''Atlantis'' as well; neither have the strong allegories to today's world, or the world of yesteryear for that matter. So I don't fully buy that there's a direct correlation between the creative direction BSG is going and the loss in viewership. Actually, one could probably argue (more successfully in my informed opinion) that the loss of ratings has more to do with Sci-Fi's scheduling decisions of breaking up the "Three Amigos" (''Stargate SG-1'', ''Stargate Atlantis'' and ''Battlestar Galactica''). As for the "loss of humanity" and suicide bombing themes, these have existed since the miniseries (Number Five's suicide bombing attempt in "[[Litmus]]" and Adama's speech in the miniseries and platitudes since then). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::: In my very informed opinion, I would have to disagree on several points. While time slots and lineup can affect ratings, this usually is reflected in those of the shows with the weaker individual draw. Galactica is a cornerstone show which should draw up the ratings for those around it rather than have such a slump from a lineup change.

::: As for the previous Friday lineup, SG-1 ratings have steadily declined since the departure of Richard Dean Anderson. His departure also seemed to coincide with decline in the quality of the writing, though I’m not convinced the two were related rather than just coincidental. I have always believed the SG Atlantis was the weak link in that lineup and was carried by its position between SG-1 and BSG. As mentioned in the article I referenced above, Dr. Who, which leads into BSG, has had poor ratings this season. I believe the replacement of the very likable actor playing the title role, though consistent with the original BBC series, was a detriment to this series. In addition, this season’s writing has seemed less creative and entertaining. I greatly enjoyed their first season, but have found the current one to be rather dull and uninteresting. This certainly doesn’t help with the Galactica ratings, but I don’t believe it is the major factor in the decline.

::: The introduction of controversial topics into plot lines is often risky, particularly with science fiction which is typically considered pure escapism, even when it has a dark element like BSG (i.e.: The potential extermination of the human race and the continued threat from the Cylon.) Generally, Sci-Fi fans want to escape the real world and be entertained, not lectured on the writers’ political or social views of modern events. While any controversial topic is a risk, the introduction of those that are currently so polarizing is almost a guarantee of distancing a significant portion of your fan base.

::: You associated the bombing executed by a Cylon against those carried out by human suicide bombers. The two aren’t even remotely comparable. The first was not executed by a human, was not condoned by the humans, and was executed by an individual who (as already had been established) would be reborn (“downloaded”) into a new body, but as the same individual. The later was not only condoned by members of the upper human leadership, it was presented as a reasonable and acceptable approach in a given situation – a strong statement considering current world events. (As someone who’s nephew’s squad was attacked by the first suicide bomber in the gulf war, killing many of his squad just a few yards in front of him, I will freely admit to strong personal feelings in this matter. None the less, such controversial plot elements are invariably going to strongly offend a significant number of viewers.) The inference that the humans must limit their use of weapons against an enemy bent on the genocide of humanity is another PC component. Biological weapons as a plot element would have been better completely left out rather than used as a mechanism for additional political commentary. Remember, people watch for entertainment, not a reminder of current events or a thinly disguised lecture from Hollywood writers on their political and social opinions.

::: It is also rather telling that the ratings dropped rather significantly after the season 3 premiere (where suicide bombings by humans were introduced and condoned.) I’ll be interested in seeing how the ratings are affected after this latest one sided (read: “PC”) foray into contemporary controversial issues.

::: --[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 20:40, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::::I doubt that the suicide bombings in Occupation and Precipice were "condoned" by the show. Roslin didn't like them. Tigh, who planned them, thought they were bad. Even Baltar (who's been developing a conscience this season, thank the Gods) didn't like them. The first was a waste of life and counterproductive, causing a massive Cylon freakout that would have killed off Roslin, Zarek, Cally and a bunch of other people if the resistance hadn't saved them in the last minute. The second took down the power grid, which was more helpful, but it should be noted that in this case the bomber didn't kill any civilians, just herself and some Cylons. Tigh is still suffering because of the choices he made on New Caprica, and it doesn't look like he's coming out of those moral woods anytime soon.

::::Furthermore, I don't think the show has condemned the use of the Cylon virus, either. Roslin was all about it, after all, and I don't think there's anything less PC than a schoolteacher with a Messiah complex jonesing for some genocide. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 22:33, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:::: The use of nuclear weapons are logical in a space setting where great distances are involved and ships are heavily armoured. I would suspect, though, that a Presidential order would have been required to use nukes on the surface of a populated planet. The use of bio-weapons would probably have similiar restrictions because of their nature. I disagree that this show was PC. The weapon that the humans stumbled upon had a unique ability to wipe out the entire race of cyclons. To use it does carry far more ethical problems than simply using a nuke on a basestar. To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 09:39, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:::::''To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet''--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]]

:::::I think that's a poor analogy, since the Japanese were not a threat to kill every American person on the planet, which is what the Cylons are a threat to do (notwithstanding Helo's odious observation that "they tried to live with us on New Caprica"). The humans and Cylons are in a war of absolute total commitment, and it's difficult to imagine how the war can end until one side or the other ceases to exist. In that scenario, you probably have to choose the other side to be the one that ceases to exist.

:::::On the other hand, one might argue that the numbers involved are so staggering that, even to a human, the lives of billions of Cylons must be valued over the lives of forty-some thousand humans. (I'm making a wild guess that the Cylon population is comparable to the pre-war human population of the 12 colonies.) This argument of course assumes that Cylons are "alive" in the same sense as people and are not merely machines. It also ignores the question of whether there is an Earth with a population of billions of humans who need the colonial fleet to survive and give them a heads-up if ''they'' are to have a fighting chance to survive a Cylon attack.

:::::[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 16:04, 25 November 2006 (CST)

:::I think the show has been attacking issues that are important in our modern world since the beginning. Basic issues like balance of power, whether civilian government should stay in power during a massive crisis and war, religion in general, how to treat thouse different from yourselves (the show has been very ambivalent about killing Cylons, even though they are "just robots"), Baltar's initial refusal to believe in the gods or a god. It has even tackled thitngs like terrorism as a means to an end (Zarek was introduced at the beginning of the first season), abortion, infanticide, torture, treatment of prisoners. In all, it has been very current and politically involved since the beginning. However, with the first 4 episodes of season 3, it took a decidedly controversial and risky turn by depicting our favorite valiant and noble heros under brutal occupation. The writers have guts, and their ratings may have suffered, but they are doing the same thing they've been doing since the beginning of the show. It's just now a lot of poeple who watch TV don't agree with the particular direction the show took. However, even then, it left the viewer to choose for him or herself what to think, it was again ambivalent, which may be what makes it the best show on TV. No, the show will not supply you with easy answers and moral certitude to very important current questions. But that's a good thing, not a bad thing. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 15:49, 13 November 2006 (EST)

::::I have to agree that it's been dealing with controversial issues from the start. One thing I've learned about BsG from watching it is that every time you think there's a line they won't cross, they seem to cross it. I think Yaneh has it right. Now, with them back in space, I do think it might turn more towards classic sci-fi, but I do agree this is not an unprecedented pattern. As for the writing on this particular episode, I think there were some odd references or slip-ups, which to my mind were made for the sole purpose of bailing Galactica out of the responsibility for a genocide. But I'm not going to judge the whole show at this point--it's WAY too early for that. I'm even more of a music buff than a TV buff, and I don't write off a band until there are 3 stinkers in a row. Let's wait and see if this a pattern before we write BsG off. --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

My additional $.02 - I'm going to have to disagree with my esteemed colleague from across the aisle, GeorgeW. I have no complaint with the political/moral questions that the writers have chosen to tackle this season. I do not believe that sci-fi was ever supposed to be purely escapist. Think of Frank Herbert's Dune which was essentially a political novel in sci-fi clothing. And the reason it is still regarded as one of the greatest sci-fi novels ever written was '''attention to detail!'''

What's made BSG so engaging has been its willingness to tackle the dark and gritty sides of a sci-fi story and thus make it far more real. This season's espisodes especially, have dug into tough questions about the justification of actions taken by a society being oppressed and even threatened with extinction - and kudos to Mr. Moore and Co. for going there! While they chose Nazi-esque imagery to illustrate the cylon occupation of New Caprica, the physical and psycological torture depicted there is exactly what Palestinians have been living with every day for decades, and I think it's extraordinary that this show has dared to ask American audiences to speculate how they would react if the same sort of conditions were imposed on us.

Consider Fox's 24, an unabashed advertisement for torture in the name of patriotism - nothing more than fearmongering to stir up a post-911 traumatised public into a state of jackboot-stamping, flag-waving paranoia, willing to hand over their civil liberties to facists. As grim as the first two episodes of this BSG season were, it was refreshing to see some element of pop culture actually asking viewers to stop and think - rather than just telling them what to believe.

If there's been a drop in ratings as a result of this storyline, it's only because so many Americans have let their capacity for critical thought atrophy over the last 40 years. (But just as likely, as was stated above, it was Sci-fi's choice to break up its powerhouse Friday night schedule. Frankly, canning Atlantis and popping the new Doctor Who episodes into the vacant slot would have been the prefered alternative.)

So back to my original point. With a wink and a nod to technobabble - the show's about homicidal robots for gosh sake - can we please just pay attention to the logical details. It's science-fiction, and we, the viewers, have already given the writers our willing suspension of disbelief. I'm just asking not to be abused with rediculous and downright stupid plot loopholes and gaffes in return for the privilege. I'm not writing off BSG either. Yet. But this last episode, which held such promise for having raised the stakes to the level of genocide, fell utterly flat - tripped up by the banana peels of sloppy writing.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 16:54, 14 November 2006 (CST)

In response to the original poster, I agree with you. This is not one of the show's shining moments.

--[[User:Crazyrabbits|Crazyrabbits]] 10:00, 15 November 2006 (CST)

== Explanations ==

A note about the Resurection ship jumping into the battle... it would seem that this is actually a good tactical move from the Cylon perspective. After Pegasus and Galactica easily destroyed the first resurrection ship and it's escorts, it would be prudent for the Cylons to keep the new ship with their fleet... even if this means taking it into battle with them. From their point of view it might look as if Galactica was trying to sucker the baseships away from the resurrection ship so the colonials could attack it. They've already used the "sucker" strategy a number of times, we could just be seeing a Cylon reaction to that strategy. Bringing the ship with them would negate such a threat as several basestars (more than enough to hold galactica off) would be able to cover for it.

As far as supply lines, it would figure that Galactica would know about this. Basic military strategy is to harass or at least keep an eye on enemy supply lines.

Also a note about the raptors and their missiles. The colonials may have found, after the battle over new caprica, that the missile attachments for the raptors were effective and could be adapted for other (combat) uses as well. It would also figure that after the loss of Pegasus, the colonials would be trying everything they could to increase firepower. This is probably just a jury-rig solution for increasing galactica's firepower.

: And all this has yet to be supported on screen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:45, 13 November 2006 (CST)

::In [[The Captain's Hand]] Admiral Adama orders a recon of 5 Raptors, 2 of them SAR and 3 Escort. Though never seen onscreen heavily armed Raptors must have been around for some time. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:57, 13 November 2006 (CST)

: It is also distinctly possible that the weapon pods were not available until the arrival of the Pegasus. The cache at Ragnar Anchorage was likely primarily the weapons themselves, and not a supply of launchers or similar hardware. Since Galactica was slated for retirement and Pegasus was fully operational it is very likely the later ship was much better equipped with combat military hardware.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 22:30, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== About Gaeta ==
Looking at the question here:

: Why is Gaeta so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D'Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?

Er, well, the last time Gaeta saw Baltar, he gave him a gun and told him his last chance at redemption was to stop Three from setting off the nuke. Given that the nuke didn't go off, it isn't unreasonable to believe Baltar was successful, and that in succeeding he would have either died or been stranded on New Caprica. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 02:50, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:Gaeta knew that he was chummy with the Cylons. For him to convince them not to detonate the nuke (not hard, given that it would be at best a symbolic gesture) and still make it off the planet alive is well within the realm of possibility. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==A quick battle==

I was just wondering but is the skirmish with Galactica and the Basestars going to be added into the Second Cylon War or not? Sure it was short but it still had combat and casualties so it should be added to the list. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:54, 13 November 2006 (CST)
: Sure, I don't see why not. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:10, 13 November 2006 (CST)

Should it be known as a battle or more of a skirmish? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:21, 22 November 2006 (CST)

==Baltar's Torture==

This is just pure speculation for speculation's sake, but I can't help thinking something more than Three being "touched" by Baltar's insane screaming of "don't stop..." "I believe in you" and "I love you with all my heart" (with internal Six's coaching) is going on in this scene. Three's indiference at the onset of her torturing, and her musing over which torture tool she should use doesnt seem like it could be changed or swayed by anything Baltar would say. i would say that judging from the torture tools they have, and their experiences on New Caprica at extracting information on detainees they know a little about torturing, it doesn't seem that Baltar saying anything he could to stop the torture would be unexpected. This leads me to wonder about exactly what he did say with the help of internal Six. perhaps those phrases, or the way he said it struck something in Three that only Cylons are aware of...maybe it means something that neither the Viewer or Baltar is aware of...I just find it hard to believe that Three, fully prepared for torture, even having fun picking what instrument to use...could be so easily moved from some snivelling bleating human saying he loves her with all his heart...Did Six give Baltar these phrases to say because she knew they'd strike a cord in a fellow Cylon, Three's reaction was quite a reaction, and then touching his lips like she couldn't believe those words came out of his mouth.....I don't know...just speculating.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:23, 14 November 2006 (CST)

--I wonder if the incongruity of those phrases to the situation of being tortured made Three wonder if Baltar was projecting. Now, if they've tortured other humans, they've probably seen people break with reality and shut down before, but perhaps that's a reaction beyond anything they've ever seen before. More like a Cylon being tortured? Is that what their instinct is, if they're in the same situation as Baltar? --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

==Note about the virus is incorrect==

The note:

Dr. Cottle identifies the disease as Lymphocytic encephalitis, however encephalitis is a condition (swelling of the brain) that can be caused by a pathogen, not a pathogen itself. More likely the pathogen is Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus.

When a doctor identifies a disease, he normally states the name of the disease, not the name of the virus. The note itself states that Doc Cottle identifies the "disease," not the pathogen. I think the note needs to be modified or deleted. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 20:58, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== Accessing the "Hybrid?" ==

Is that what Athena is doing? Do we know that? It just sounds odd when phrased that way. [[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 02:56, 14 November 2006 (CST)

== The antibody degradative debate? ==

Ok, the latest addition to this point is the most scientifically accurate (antibodies do not have degradative functionality)! Read the wiki articles yourself to confirm and help you understand. On a more serious note if contributors (chiefly the second one on this topic) feel that an explanation or analysis point is incorrect or poorly explained than they need to do their homework before they dispute it and make up their own science. I know its only a fan wiki on battlestar but lets not plague our site with scientific inconsistencies like in 'A measure of Salvation' (Their science advisor must of been on holiday when this was written), after all we have luxury of being able to correct ourselves in hindsight ;) [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 18:10, 15 November 2006 (CST)

:Sorry, but antibodies *do* have degradative capability, it has been known for at least 4 years now. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/298/5601/2195

::Alright, this is getting silly now. This article is talking about the antibody catalysed generation of peroxide and an ozone analogue, referring to the apparent toxicity of these products to bacterial species - no mention of RNA degradation (or any other kind of degradation for that matter) here, mate!. Im super sorry, but AB's **don't** have degradative functionality! [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 15:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:After spending over 25 years working in the clincial field (including being a lab director and now consultant), much of it involving research in imunology, immunohematology, genetics, and similar areas, I believe I know a bit more than what's presented in a few overly simplistic paragraphs in some an abbreviated article. I've dealt with far to many on the internet like yourself who reads a few sentences and brands themselves an expert. I came to this site because I believed it would be an enjoyable place to talk about my favorite show, but apparently this is just another one flled with those who prefer to hide behind their monitors and make snide comments. I'm not here to get into this type of garbage, so that's it, I'm done and out of here.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 01:07, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::There will always be people that claim to know all and others that really do belive that they know the right answer. The solution is just to provide loads of sourced for what you say. I dont know of your technical background but it would be very beneficial for all if you stayed and we can work this bit out. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:02, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::I'm sorry you feel that way, and I do have a solution to the above issue. It's a really simple solution, so here goes: all the science information needs to be sourced. I'm not talking about using links to Wikipedia (which we shouldn't really be sourcing from anyway), but I'm talking about adding sources from scientific journals and the like. References that GeorgeW should have access to, if I'm correct on that. Otherwise, I'm inclined to yank the entire thing since it isn't sourced at all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:41, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::: I have cited an excellent reference on this topic in the article, a text that was very useful to me in my first undergrad year. It would be rather difficult to cite an appropriate journal (even a review) because the topic is very basic. In addition very few people would have access to any article cited without paying or having a subscription (personal or institutional), though most major libraries are bound to stock this text. My inclusion of Wiki articles as references were due to the fact that they provide a sound and simplistic (extremely accurate, believe it or not!) explanation of the relevant topics, as I assume most people reading these articles don't have a degree in a biological science. As for George W. Bush's 25 years of clinical experience (hmm?), I'd like to know if he's willing to dispute a scientific textbook! [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 17:51, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::::Regardless of who is right or wrong (I'm NOT taking sides here), there shouldn't be debate in the analysis section. Currently it reads like:
::::A
:::::NOT (A)
::::::NOT (NOT (A))
::::Which is NOT (Encycopledic) to read. Pull out your sources, measure them (weigh them, whatever), and the winner takes all (and gets a quick blurb about A (or NOT (A)) in the "Analysis" section). Also, when citing your sources you may want to make use of the [[:Category:Citation templates|citation templates]] when citing books, journal articles, etc. That's what makes the cool little footnotes that show up in the "References" section. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:06, 16 November 2006 (CST)

== sickbay ship ==

William Adama says in the final scene:

:''Cottle's report from the virus: He thinks that it was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon '''we''' abandoned on '''the sickbay ship'''.''

*What is ''the sickbay ship''? When did this happen?
*Who does ''we'' refer to in this statement if Adama and Laura seem to believe that the beacon was left there as a ''signpost to earth''?

--[[User:Pix|Pix]] 01:35, 17 November 2006 (CST)

:From Sadgeezer's transcript:
:'''Adama, standing''': Cottle's report on the virus. He thinks that it was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon we abandoned on the sick baseship.

:'''Roslin''': Somebody sneezed, maybe.

:SO to the first, I think it was sick baseship, not sickbay ship. And the we refers to the Fleet collectively, but specifically to themselves (being the decisionmakers that decided to leave it onboard the baseship rather than bring it aboard and risk contamination). It sounds like they maybe wish they'd have picked it up now, but at least they're on the right track.
:If you check out the [[Podcast:A Measure of Salvation|podcast transcript]], you'll hear/see that actually as originally scripted they did pick up the beacon, and were going to chuck it through space at the Cylons, but the writers/producers decided that was lame and chose to leave it on the destroyed ship rather than have to deal with getting rid of it in a subsequent episode. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 17 November 2006 (CST)

::Haha, I can't believe that Adama's strange speaking rhythm in that scene completely threw me off. The interpretation, ''sick baseship'' had never entered my mind, despite making considerably more sense. --[[User:Pix|Pix]] 19:42, 17 November 2006 (CST)

== Battle Article ==
Does the little skirmish deserve a "Battle of NCD2539" article? --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 17:57, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:Sure. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:49, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Virus "Discussion" ==
Wouldn't the majority of this "discussion" fit in the [[Life sciences in the Re-imagined Series
]] article? Would make the episode article much neater. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:10, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:Why is it beyond everyone to just admit that the medical technobabble was complete BS? There's no profit to be found in coming up with excuses for it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:24, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== I don't get it. ==

Can somebody explain the premise of this episode? How does this virus threaten to become a genocidal pandemic?

There was some technobabble that I didn't quite understand (perhaps somebody can elucidate) about how an infected Cyclon who dies would somehow download the contagion along with its memories.

Accepting that the infected Cylon remains infected after resurrection, how would the contagion spread from there? Presumably the first words out of the mouth of the Cylon after resurrection would be "I'M INFECTED!!!" and the resurrection ship would quarantine itself, or simply destroy itself. Even if the carrier Cylon were unable to communicate its status, the Cylons still know about the existence of the threat (which is why the infected basestar was left marooned), and are presumably intelligent enough not to let anything leave a resurrection ship without first being checked and cleared.

I've watched the episode twice now, and I still have no idea how this virus was supposed to threaten the entire Cylon race. Can somebody explain it so that this idiot (me) can understand?

On an unrelated note, Hera, who cured Roslin's cancer in an earlier episode and has now rendered Athena immune to the Cylon plague, is starting to remind me of the magical crossbreed from [[Wikipedia:V (The Final Battle)|V: The Final Battle]]. When you're cribbing from "V," you're really scraping the bottom of the sci-fi barrel.

[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 15:17, 25 November 2006 (CST)

: Well, it's confusing and the writers would have made the episode better had they actually thought this through and presented the idea to a science advisor, such as Dr. Kevin Grazier. From what I personally can gather from watching this episode, the effects of the virus would corrupt Cylon programming. (The actual virus itself wouldn't be transmitted, since biological viruses are not transmitted during the download process, the memories -- applications and application data, if you will -- are.) Given that memories are shared between Cylon models, it's feasible that there is a central memory database that is constantly being revised (like a wiki, for instance). If you add corrupted information and that information is transmitted throughout the Cylon collective (for lack of a better term), it would cause the Cylons to stop functioning, hence the threat. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:09, 25 November 2006 (CST)

::And unlike the magic cancer-cure Athenas immunity through pregnancy appears quite credible, given that there are many ways a womans body can be affected by a pregnancy, e.g. under certain conditions involving the [[Wikipedia:Rhesus blood group system|Rhesus Factor]] a pregnancy can lead to the intoduction of genes into the mothers body, that trigger a creation of antigens that will pose a threat to the childs during all further pregnancys. In this case it would simply be that Hera possesses a slighly different form of the human antibody compatible with the cylon body. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 16:37, 25 November 2006 (CST)

OMG! No fanwank needed. Just more careful listening.

A baseship is infected with this deadly, communicable, downloadable pathogen.

The resurrection ship says, "Gee, nothing personal, but if you download to us, you'll bring the infection, and then we'd have to shut down the resurrection ship, or it would infect the rest of the fleet. So, bye!"

The Galactica comes along and asks one of the survivors why the infected ship was abandoned. It answers, "If one of us dies and is resurrected, the disease will follow, infecting the resurrection ship, and the fleet."

Apollo thinks, "OMG, did I hear that right? If an infected Cylon downloads, it will infect the whole fleet? Booyah!"

That's it. No fanwank needed. The most straightforward reading is simply that there was never any genocidal threat at all -- just some wishful thinking!

Props to [[User:Keanzu|Keanzu]] for adding an inspirational question to the article.

--[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 07:47, 26 November 2006 (CST)

== sidestepping Helo's "muder" issues ==

Galactica's plan was to execute the prisoners once it was within range of a Cylon resurrection ship. They never stated why they planned to execute all of the prisoners instead of just one of them, and I think they sidestepped some interesting moral complexities that would have been present if they had planned to execute only one of them.

Helo killed the five prisoners just minutes before they were to be executed anyway. Considering the stakes, I guess he can shrug that off.

But what if the plan had been to execute only one of the prisoners, and for the other four prisoners to live out very long lives on Galactica, kept alive by a drug developed from human antigens? In that case, Helo could have thwarted the plan only by murdering four prisoners who otherwise had the rest of their lives ahead of them. (Cally's case established that retiring a skin job isn't murder in a ''legal'' sense, but it surely is in the minds of Helo and Athena, especially if the subject can't download.)

This action would have been possible to rationalize in terms of the numbers -- killing four to save the rest of the race -- but the moral issues couldn't simply have been ignored, especially considering the fact that there's no guarantee that the genocidal plan would have worked anyway. Helo would have had to grapple with the fact that, in order to destroy this potentially genocidal biological weapon, he murdered four defenseless prisoners (or five, if you include the one who was about to be killed anyway).

This series has so far shown a willingness to delve into issues of moral complexity, so I'm not going to leap to the conclusion that the writers chose the route they did for the purpose of sidestepping these complexities, but I do think it would have been more interesting (and more believable, since there really is no reason given to kill all five prisoners) if they had gone the other route.

--[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 03:30, 26 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:A Measure of Salvation/Archive 1

2006-11-26T09:30:00Z

Capedia: sidestepping Helo's "muder" issues

==Picture?==
Is that picture from A Measure of Salvation? I don't remember Three and Six projecting themselves into a forest. The outfits they are wearing look like what they wore while torturing Baltar, so maybe it's from a deleted scene. Unless I've forgotten the scene for some reason, shouldn't we get a picture that actually came from the episode? -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Some Poor Writing ==

Attention to detail is what has set BSG apart from so many other science-fiction shows - including Mr. Moore's Star Trek franchises. So I was very disappointed last night to see the sloppy errors piling up deep. I'd have to see the epsiode again to list them all, but mainly them problems concerned the virus.

The scene where potentially infected Galactica crew are "quarantined", together with Sharon, in a room with cold-storage plastic flaps was ridiculous.

It's preposterous to think that a cylon would casually betray his race for the anti-viral drug. He has no assurance that he won't be double-crossed, and he certainly - even after torture - wouldn't spell out the danger the virus poses to the cylon fleet. The audience isn't stupid and neither should the Galctica crew be. Seeing Lee with a dim little lightbulb over his head was just insulting to us all.

Past episodes have cleary shown that cylon ressurection occurs over significant distances, (greater than FTL jumps), and that calls into question the fundemental logistics of Adama's infection plan.

There would be no reason to jump Galactica itself, just sending one raptor with a cylon transponder and one infected cylon would have done the trick. (Nevermind the ease with which two cylon raiders almost instantly materialize into a whole cylon fleet with a resurrectionship conveniently in tow.)

The analysis on the episode summary page provides an excellent plot device allowing the raid to "succeed" thus justifying the major build-up of the two part story. In fact, it would have made a superb three part arc.

Hypothetical episode 3: Spend some realistic period of time finding a reasonably sized cylon fleet, infect them, virus begins spreading throughout area covered by the "local" resurrection ship. Cylons scramble to head off disease, Baltar gains points by developing Hera vaccine, cylons survive but with major "body-blow" giving Galactica and fleet some breathing room as they prepare to investigate the new lead to Earth.

Please don't get me wrong, I love this show, but sci-fi writing has always been done on the cheap and it make my eyes roll as I struggle to care about characters forced through non-sensical plot contortions. Please, Mr. Moore, DON'T LET BSG SINK TO THE SAME SAD FATE! I'm trusting that this was just a hiccup not a trend.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 13:08, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:In defense of the writers, I think you are wrong on two points:
:*Jumping Galactica makes sense. In [[Scar]] Cylon Raiders are engaging in skirmishes despite the absence of a resurrection ship. A Raptor is not a big enough threat to guarantee the presence of a resurrection ship. If one isn't in range by accident the Cylons would probably engage the Raptor without it and take a minor risk of permanently loosing a few raiders. And after [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]] the Cylons could be exspected to take a closer look to any unexpected Raptors with a Cylon transponder showing up. If they destroy it without a resurrection ship in range, the plans failed. Also Racetrack stated last episode that there is a shortage of Raptors in the fleet, noone is going to be eager to sacrifice one. Jumping Galactica ensures the Cylon require lots of forces, expect lot's of casualties and have a resurrection ship nearby, though I could have done without seeing it arrive on the battlefield, that's bad and inconsistent strategy, just to make sure the audience knows that it is in range.

:*There is probably a greater timespan between arrival of the patrol and that of the strikeforce then shown onscreen. Helo manipulates the oxygen-system after the jump, nevertheless the prisoners are already dead by the time the resurrection ship appears, indicating a least a few minutes have passed. The process can be seen in [[Flight of the Phoenix]] in the firing range scene (it's likely that Helo manipulated the same system).

:Two more plotholes I noticed: How do the Colonials know the Cylon supply lines? And given that they know Athena is immune because she's given birth to a hybrid child, they should wonder if there a more human-cylon hybrids. Even without knowing that Hera is still alive, if the massive Cylon effort to create hybrids resulted in creating at least one more hybrid the cylons would take a blow, but would not be exstinct. By the way it would be nice if we would hear something about these efforts. When Hera is shown for the first time in Cylon hands would be a good opportunity to close that chapter with a throwaway line that all these efforts were fruitless and stopped. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 11:24, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: That's an interesting question -- one that I had myself, actually. Even if the effort didn't destroy the Cylon race (and I think that goal is overly optimistic), the virus would have given a serious blow to the Cylons, which would only serve to give the survivors more breathing room -- not to metion the increase in general morale, which the survivors seriously need after the farce at New Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

I would have to agree the writing is poor. The series seems to be drifting from its roots and moving into the Hollywood PC political statement world. This season has already thrown in suicide bombing and implied it was acceptable, now there is a drift into making political statements about biological weapons (even though nuclear weapons have been freely used in the past.) It seems the writers are abandoning their science fiction roots and reaching to make their own personal social or political commentary. I do hope they get back to what I considered truly exceptional science fiction and stop these editorials.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 00:06, 12 November 2006 (CST)

Followup: According to and article on the Gateworld site ([http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/10/season_three_ratings_slip_from_premiere.shtml]) the ratings have been slipping. As much as I truly love this show, I know my wife and I were both rather disgusted with the previous inclusion of the suicide bombers and now the “loss of humanity” references associated with the potential use of biological weapons. I have also heard complaints from two of our friends. I’m concerned that if this direction is continued it will not only ruin the show, it will also drive away viewers resulting in cancelation. As a long time science fiction fan (I even remember watching the original showings of Lost in Space and the first Star Trek) this has been my all time favorite show up until now. I would hate to see it have an early demise. As I mentioned above, I hope the writers can return to science fiction and entertainment.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 16:13, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: Ratings have been slipping for ''SG-1'' and ''Atlantis'' as well; neither have the strong allegories to today's world, or the world of yesteryear for that matter. So I don't fully buy that there's a direct correlation between the creative direction BSG is going and the loss in viewership. Actually, one could probably argue (more successfully in my informed opinion) that the loss of ratings has more to do with Sci-Fi's scheduling decisions of breaking up the "Three Amigos" (''Stargate SG-1'', ''Stargate Atlantis'' and ''Battlestar Galactica''). As for the "loss of humanity" and suicide bombing themes, these have existed since the miniseries (Number Five's suicide bombing attempt in "[[Litmus]]" and Adama's speech in the miniseries and platitudes since then). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::: In my very informed opinion, I would have to disagree on several points. While time slots and lineup can affect ratings, this usually is reflected in those of the shows with the weaker individual draw. Galactica is a cornerstone show which should draw up the ratings for those around it rather than have such a slump from a lineup change.

::: As for the previous Friday lineup, SG-1 ratings have steadily declined since the departure of Richard Dean Anderson. His departure also seemed to coincide with decline in the quality of the writing, though I’m not convinced the two were related rather than just coincidental. I have always believed the SG Atlantis was the weak link in that lineup and was carried by its position between SG-1 and BSG. As mentioned in the article I referenced above, Dr. Who, which leads into BSG, has had poor ratings this season. I believe the replacement of the very likable actor playing the title role, though consistent with the original BBC series, was a detriment to this series. In addition, this season’s writing has seemed less creative and entertaining. I greatly enjoyed their first season, but have found the current one to be rather dull and uninteresting. This certainly doesn’t help with the Galactica ratings, but I don’t believe it is the major factor in the decline.

::: The introduction of controversial topics into plot lines is often risky, particularly with science fiction which is typically considered pure escapism, even when it has a dark element like BSG (i.e.: The potential extermination of the human race and the continued threat from the Cylon.) Generally, Sci-Fi fans want to escape the real world and be entertained, not lectured on the writers’ political or social views of modern events. While any controversial topic is a risk, the introduction of those that are currently so polarizing is almost a guarantee of distancing a significant portion of your fan base.

::: You associated the bombing executed by a Cylon against those carried out by human suicide bombers. The two aren’t even remotely comparable. The first was not executed by a human, was not condoned by the humans, and was executed by an individual who (as already had been established) would be reborn (“downloaded”) into a new body, but as the same individual. The later was not only condoned by members of the upper human leadership, it was presented as a reasonable and acceptable approach in a given situation – a strong statement considering current world events. (As someone who’s nephew’s squad was attacked by the first suicide bomber in the gulf war, killing many of his squad just a few yards in front of him, I will freely admit to strong personal feelings in this matter. None the less, such controversial plot elements are invariably going to strongly offend a significant number of viewers.) The inference that the humans must limit their use of weapons against an enemy bent on the genocide of humanity is another PC component. Biological weapons as a plot element would have been better completely left out rather than used as a mechanism for additional political commentary. Remember, people watch for entertainment, not a reminder of current events or a thinly disguised lecture from Hollywood writers on their political and social opinions.

::: It is also rather telling that the ratings dropped rather significantly after the season 3 premiere (where suicide bombings by humans were introduced and condoned.) I’ll be interested in seeing how the ratings are affected after this latest one sided (read: “PC”) foray into contemporary controversial issues.

::: --[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 20:40, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::::I doubt that the suicide bombings in Occupation and Precipice were "condoned" by the show. Roslin didn't like them. Tigh, who planned them, thought they were bad. Even Baltar (who's been developing a conscience this season, thank the Gods) didn't like them. The first was a waste of life and counterproductive, causing a massive Cylon freakout that would have killed off Roslin, Zarek, Cally and a bunch of other people if the resistance hadn't saved them in the last minute. The second took down the power grid, which was more helpful, but it should be noted that in this case the bomber didn't kill any civilians, just herself and some Cylons. Tigh is still suffering because of the choices he made on New Caprica, and it doesn't look like he's coming out of those moral woods anytime soon.

::::Furthermore, I don't think the show has condemned the use of the Cylon virus, either. Roslin was all about it, after all, and I don't think there's anything less PC than a schoolteacher with a Messiah complex jonesing for some genocide. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 22:33, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:::: The use of nuclear weapons are logical in a space setting where great distances are involved and ships are heavily armoured. I would suspect, though, that a Presidential order would have been required to use nukes on the surface of a populated planet. The use of bio-weapons would probably have similiar restrictions because of their nature. I disagree that this show was PC. The weapon that the humans stumbled upon had a unique ability to wipe out the entire race of cyclons. To use it does carry far more ethical problems than simply using a nuke on a basestar. To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 09:39, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:::::''To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet''--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]]

:::::I think that's a poor analogy, since the Japanese were not a threat to kill every American person on the planet, which is what the Cylons are a threat to do (notwithstanding Helo's odious observation that "they tried to live with us on New Caprica"). The humans and Cylons are in a war of absolute total commitment, and it's difficult to imagine how the war can end until one side or the other ceases to exist. In that scenario, you probably have to choose the other side to be the one that ceases to exist.

:::::On the other hand, one might argue that the numbers involved are so staggering that, even to a human, the lives of billions of Cylons must be valued over the lives of forty-some thousand humans. (I'm making a wild guess that the Cylon population is comparable to the pre-war human population of the 12 colonies.) This argument of course assumes that Cylons are "alive" in the same sense as people and are not merely machines. It also ignores the question of whether there is an Earth with a population of billions of humans who need the colonial fleet to survive and give them a heads-up if ''they'' are to have a fighting chance to survive a Cylon attack.

:::::[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 16:04, 25 November 2006 (CST)

:::I think the show has been attacking issues that are important in our modern world since the beginning. Basic issues like balance of power, whether civilian government should stay in power during a massive crisis and war, religion in general, how to treat thouse different from yourselves (the show has been very ambivalent about killing Cylons, even though they are "just robots"), Baltar's initial refusal to believe in the gods or a god. It has even tackled thitngs like terrorism as a means to an end (Zarek was introduced at the beginning of the first season), abortion, infanticide, torture, treatment of prisoners. In all, it has been very current and politically involved since the beginning. However, with the first 4 episodes of season 3, it took a decidedly controversial and risky turn by depicting our favorite valiant and noble heros under brutal occupation. The writers have guts, and their ratings may have suffered, but they are doing the same thing they've been doing since the beginning of the show. It's just now a lot of poeple who watch TV don't agree with the particular direction the show took. However, even then, it left the viewer to choose for him or herself what to think, it was again ambivalent, which may be what makes it the best show on TV. No, the show will not supply you with easy answers and moral certitude to very important current questions. But that's a good thing, not a bad thing. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 15:49, 13 November 2006 (EST)

::::I have to agree that it's been dealing with controversial issues from the start. One thing I've learned about BsG from watching it is that every time you think there's a line they won't cross, they seem to cross it. I think Yaneh has it right. Now, with them back in space, I do think it might turn more towards classic sci-fi, but I do agree this is not an unprecedented pattern. As for the writing on this particular episode, I think there were some odd references or slip-ups, which to my mind were made for the sole purpose of bailing Galactica out of the responsibility for a genocide. But I'm not going to judge the whole show at this point--it's WAY too early for that. I'm even more of a music buff than a TV buff, and I don't write off a band until there are 3 stinkers in a row. Let's wait and see if this a pattern before we write BsG off. --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

My additional $.02 - I'm going to have to disagree with my esteemed colleague from across the aisle, GeorgeW. I have no complaint with the political/moral questions that the writers have chosen to tackle this season. I do not believe that sci-fi was ever supposed to be purely escapist. Think of Frank Herbert's Dune which was essentially a political novel in sci-fi clothing. And the reason it is still regarded as one of the greatest sci-fi novels ever written was '''attention to detail!'''

What's made BSG so engaging has been its willingness to tackle the dark and gritty sides of a sci-fi story and thus make it far more real. This season's espisodes especially, have dug into tough questions about the justification of actions taken by a society being oppressed and even threatened with extinction - and kudos to Mr. Moore and Co. for going there! While they chose Nazi-esque imagery to illustrate the cylon occupation of New Caprica, the physical and psycological torture depicted there is exactly what Palestinians have been living with every day for decades, and I think it's extraordinary that this show has dared to ask American audiences to speculate how they would react if the same sort of conditions were imposed on us.

Consider Fox's 24, an unabashed advertisement for torture in the name of patriotism - nothing more than fearmongering to stir up a post-911 traumatised public into a state of jackboot-stamping, flag-waving paranoia, willing to hand over their civil liberties to facists. As grim as the first two episodes of this BSG season were, it was refreshing to see some element of pop culture actually asking viewers to stop and think - rather than just telling them what to believe.

If there's been a drop in ratings as a result of this storyline, it's only because so many Americans have let their capacity for critical thought atrophy over the last 40 years. (But just as likely, as was stated above, it was Sci-fi's choice to break up its powerhouse Friday night schedule. Frankly, canning Atlantis and popping the new Doctor Who episodes into the vacant slot would have been the prefered alternative.)

So back to my original point. With a wink and a nod to technobabble - the show's about homicidal robots for gosh sake - can we please just pay attention to the logical details. It's science-fiction, and we, the viewers, have already given the writers our willing suspension of disbelief. I'm just asking not to be abused with rediculous and downright stupid plot loopholes and gaffes in return for the privilege. I'm not writing off BSG either. Yet. But this last episode, which held such promise for having raised the stakes to the level of genocide, fell utterly flat - tripped up by the banana peels of sloppy writing.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 16:54, 14 November 2006 (CST)

In response to the original poster, I agree with you. This is not one of the show's shining moments.

--[[User:Crazyrabbits|Crazyrabbits]] 10:00, 15 November 2006 (CST)

== Explanations ==

A note about the Resurection ship jumping into the battle... it would seem that this is actually a good tactical move from the Cylon perspective. After Pegasus and Galactica easily destroyed the first resurrection ship and it's escorts, it would be prudent for the Cylons to keep the new ship with their fleet... even if this means taking it into battle with them. From their point of view it might look as if Galactica was trying to sucker the baseships away from the resurrection ship so the colonials could attack it. They've already used the "sucker" strategy a number of times, we could just be seeing a Cylon reaction to that strategy. Bringing the ship with them would negate such a threat as several basestars (more than enough to hold galactica off) would be able to cover for it.

As far as supply lines, it would figure that Galactica would know about this. Basic military strategy is to harass or at least keep an eye on enemy supply lines.

Also a note about the raptors and their missiles. The colonials may have found, after the battle over new caprica, that the missile attachments for the raptors were effective and could be adapted for other (combat) uses as well. It would also figure that after the loss of Pegasus, the colonials would be trying everything they could to increase firepower. This is probably just a jury-rig solution for increasing galactica's firepower.

: And all this has yet to be supported on screen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:45, 13 November 2006 (CST)

::In [[The Captain's Hand]] Admiral Adama orders a recon of 5 Raptors, 2 of them SAR and 3 Escort. Though never seen onscreen heavily armed Raptors must have been around for some time. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:57, 13 November 2006 (CST)

: It is also distinctly possible that the weapon pods were not available until the arrival of the Pegasus. The cache at Ragnar Anchorage was likely primarily the weapons themselves, and not a supply of launchers or similar hardware. Since Galactica was slated for retirement and Pegasus was fully operational it is very likely the later ship was much better equipped with combat military hardware.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 22:30, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== About Gaeta ==
Looking at the question here:

: Why is Gaeta so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D'Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?

Er, well, the last time Gaeta saw Baltar, he gave him a gun and told him his last chance at redemption was to stop Three from setting off the nuke. Given that the nuke didn't go off, it isn't unreasonable to believe Baltar was successful, and that in succeeding he would have either died or been stranded on New Caprica. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 02:50, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:Gaeta knew that he was chummy with the Cylons. For him to convince them not to detonate the nuke (not hard, given that it would be at best a symbolic gesture) and still make it off the planet alive is well within the realm of possibility. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==A quick battle==

I was just wondering but is the skirmish with Galactica and the Basestars going to be added into the Second Cylon War or not? Sure it was short but it still had combat and casualties so it should be added to the list. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:54, 13 November 2006 (CST)
: Sure, I don't see why not. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:10, 13 November 2006 (CST)

Should it be known as a battle or more of a skirmish? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:21, 22 November 2006 (CST)

==Baltar's Torture==

This is just pure speculation for speculation's sake, but I can't help thinking something more than Three being "touched" by Baltar's insane screaming of "don't stop..." "I believe in you" and "I love you with all my heart" (with internal Six's coaching) is going on in this scene. Three's indiference at the onset of her torturing, and her musing over which torture tool she should use doesnt seem like it could be changed or swayed by anything Baltar would say. i would say that judging from the torture tools they have, and their experiences on New Caprica at extracting information on detainees they know a little about torturing, it doesn't seem that Baltar saying anything he could to stop the torture would be unexpected. This leads me to wonder about exactly what he did say with the help of internal Six. perhaps those phrases, or the way he said it struck something in Three that only Cylons are aware of...maybe it means something that neither the Viewer or Baltar is aware of...I just find it hard to believe that Three, fully prepared for torture, even having fun picking what instrument to use...could be so easily moved from some snivelling bleating human saying he loves her with all his heart...Did Six give Baltar these phrases to say because she knew they'd strike a cord in a fellow Cylon, Three's reaction was quite a reaction, and then touching his lips like she couldn't believe those words came out of his mouth.....I don't know...just speculating.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:23, 14 November 2006 (CST)

--I wonder if the incongruity of those phrases to the situation of being tortured made Three wonder if Baltar was projecting. Now, if they've tortured other humans, they've probably seen people break with reality and shut down before, but perhaps that's a reaction beyond anything they've ever seen before. More like a Cylon being tortured? Is that what their instinct is, if they're in the same situation as Baltar? --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

==Note about the virus is incorrect==

The note:

Dr. Cottle identifies the disease as Lymphocytic encephalitis, however encephalitis is a condition (swelling of the brain) that can be caused by a pathogen, not a pathogen itself. More likely the pathogen is Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus.

When a doctor identifies a disease, he normally states the name of the disease, not the name of the virus. The note itself states that Doc Cottle identifies the "disease," not the pathogen. I think the note needs to be modified or deleted. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 20:58, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== Accessing the "Hybrid?" ==

Is that what Athena is doing? Do we know that? It just sounds odd when phrased that way. [[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 02:56, 14 November 2006 (CST)

== The antibody degradative debate? ==

Ok, the latest addition to this point is the most scientifically accurate (antibodies do not have degradative functionality)! Read the wiki articles yourself to confirm and help you understand. On a more serious note if contributors (chiefly the second one on this topic) feel that an explanation or analysis point is incorrect or poorly explained than they need to do their homework before they dispute it and make up their own science. I know its only a fan wiki on battlestar but lets not plague our site with scientific inconsistencies like in 'A measure of Salvation' (Their science advisor must of been on holiday when this was written), after all we have luxury of being able to correct ourselves in hindsight ;) [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 18:10, 15 November 2006 (CST)

:Sorry, but antibodies *do* have degradative capability, it has been known for at least 4 years now. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/298/5601/2195

::Alright, this is getting silly now. This article is talking about the antibody catalysed generation of peroxide and an ozone analogue, referring to the apparent toxicity of these products to bacterial species - no mention of RNA degradation (or any other kind of degradation for that matter) here, mate!. Im super sorry, but AB's **don't** have degradative functionality! [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 15:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:After spending over 25 years working in the clincial field (including being a lab director and now consultant), much of it involving research in imunology, immunohematology, genetics, and similar areas, I believe I know a bit more than what's presented in a few overly simplistic paragraphs in some an abbreviated article. I've dealt with far to many on the internet like yourself who reads a few sentences and brands themselves an expert. I came to this site because I believed it would be an enjoyable place to talk about my favorite show, but apparently this is just another one flled with those who prefer to hide behind their monitors and make snide comments. I'm not here to get into this type of garbage, so that's it, I'm done and out of here.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 01:07, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::There will always be people that claim to know all and others that really do belive that they know the right answer. The solution is just to provide loads of sourced for what you say. I dont know of your technical background but it would be very beneficial for all if you stayed and we can work this bit out. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:02, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::I'm sorry you feel that way, and I do have a solution to the above issue. It's a really simple solution, so here goes: all the science information needs to be sourced. I'm not talking about using links to Wikipedia (which we shouldn't really be sourcing from anyway), but I'm talking about adding sources from scientific journals and the like. References that GeorgeW should have access to, if I'm correct on that. Otherwise, I'm inclined to yank the entire thing since it isn't sourced at all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:41, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::: I have cited an excellent reference on this topic in the article, a text that was very useful to me in my first undergrad year. It would be rather difficult to cite an appropriate journal (even a review) because the topic is very basic. In addition very few people would have access to any article cited without paying or having a subscription (personal or institutional), though most major libraries are bound to stock this text. My inclusion of Wiki articles as references were due to the fact that they provide a sound and simplistic (extremely accurate, believe it or not!) explanation of the relevant topics, as I assume most people reading these articles don't have a degree in a biological science. As for George W. Bush's 25 years of clinical experience (hmm?), I'd like to know if he's willing to dispute a scientific textbook! [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 17:51, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::::Regardless of who is right or wrong (I'm NOT taking sides here), there shouldn't be debate in the analysis section. Currently it reads like:
::::A
:::::NOT (A)
::::::NOT (NOT (A))
::::Which is NOT (Encycopledic) to read. Pull out your sources, measure them (weigh them, whatever), and the winner takes all (and gets a quick blurb about A (or NOT (A)) in the "Analysis" section). Also, when citing your sources you may want to make use of the [[:Category:Citation templates|citation templates]] when citing books, journal articles, etc. That's what makes the cool little footnotes that show up in the "References" section. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:06, 16 November 2006 (CST)

== sickbay ship ==

William Adama says in the final scene:

:''Cottle's report from the virus: He thinks that it was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon '''we''' abandoned on '''the sickbay ship'''.''

*What is ''the sickbay ship''? When did this happen?
*Who does ''we'' refer to in this statement if Adama and Laura seem to believe that the beacon was left there as a ''signpost to earth''?

--[[User:Pix|Pix]] 01:35, 17 November 2006 (CST)

:From Sadgeezer's transcript:
:'''Adama, standing''': Cottle's report on the virus. He thinks that it was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon we abandoned on the sick baseship.

:'''Roslin''': Somebody sneezed, maybe.

:SO to the first, I think it was sick baseship, not sickbay ship. And the we refers to the Fleet collectively, but specifically to themselves (being the decisionmakers that decided to leave it onboard the baseship rather than bring it aboard and risk contamination). It sounds like they maybe wish they'd have picked it up now, but at least they're on the right track.
:If you check out the [[Podcast:A Measure of Salvation|podcast transcript]], you'll hear/see that actually as originally scripted they did pick up the beacon, and were going to chuck it through space at the Cylons, but the writers/producers decided that was lame and chose to leave it on the destroyed ship rather than have to deal with getting rid of it in a subsequent episode. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 17 November 2006 (CST)

::Haha, I can't believe that Adama's strange speaking rhythm in that scene completely threw me off. The interpretation, ''sick baseship'' had never entered my mind, despite making considerably more sense. --[[User:Pix|Pix]] 19:42, 17 November 2006 (CST)

== Battle Article ==
Does the little skirmish deserve a "Battle of NCD2539" article? --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 17:57, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:Sure. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:49, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Virus "Discussion" ==
Wouldn't the majority of this "discussion" fit in the [[Life sciences in the Re-imagined Series
]] article? Would make the episode article much neater. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:10, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:Why is it beyond everyone to just admit that the medical technobabble was complete BS? There's no profit to be found in coming up with excuses for it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:24, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== I don't get it. ==

Can somebody explain the premise of this episode? How does this virus threaten to become a genocidal pandemic?

There was some technobabble that I didn't quite understand (perhaps somebody can elucidate) about how an infected Cyclon who dies would somehow download the contagion along with its memories.

Accepting that the infected Cylon remains infected after resurrection, how would the contagion spread from there? Presumably the first words out of the mouth of the Cylon after resurrection would be "I'M INFECTED!!!" and the resurrection ship would quarantine itself, or simply destroy itself. Even if the carrier Cylon were unable to communicate its status, the Cylons still know about the existence of the threat (which is why the infected basestar was left marooned), and are presumably intelligent enough not to let anything leave a resurrection ship without first being checked and cleared.

I've watched the episode twice now, and I still have no idea how this virus was supposed to threaten the entire Cylon race. Can somebody explain it so that this idiot (me) can understand?

On an unrelated note, Hera, who cured Roslin's cancer in an earlier episode and has now rendered Athena immune to the Cylon plague, is starting to remind me of the magical crossbreed from [[Wikipedia:V (The Final Battle)|V: The Final Battle]]. When you're cribbing from "V," you're really scraping the bottom of the sci-fi barrel.

[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 15:17, 25 November 2006 (CST)

: Well, it's confusing and the writers would have made the episode better had they actually thought this through and presented the idea to a science advisor, such as Dr. Kevin Grazier. From what I personally can gather from watching this episode, the effects of the virus would corrupt Cylon programming. (The actual virus itself wouldn't be transmitted, since biological viruses are not transmitted during the download process, the memories -- applications and application data, if you will -- are.) Given that memories are shared between Cylon models, it's feasible that there is a central memory database that is constantly being revised (like a wiki, for instance). If you add corrupted information and that information is transmitted throughout the Cylon collective (for lack of a better term), it would cause the Cylons to stop functioning, hence the threat. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:09, 25 November 2006 (CST)

::And unlike the magic cancer-cure Athenas immunity through pregnancy appears quite credible, given that there are many ways a womans body can be affected by a pregnancy, e.g. under certain conditions involving the [[Wikipedia:Rhesus blood group system|Rhesus Factor]] a pregnancy can lead to the intoduction of genes into the mothers body, that trigger a creation of antigens that will pose a threat to the childs during all further pregnancys. In this case it would simply be that Hera possesses a slighly different form of the human antibody compatible with the cylon body. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 16:37, 25 November 2006 (CST)

== sidestepping Helo's "muder" issues ==

Galactica's plan was to execute the prisoners once it was within range of a Cylon resurrection ship. They never stated why they planned to execute all of the prisoners instead of just one of them, and I think they sidestepped some interesting moral complexities that would have been present if they had planned to execute only one of them.

Helo killed the five prisoners just minutes before they were to be executed anyway. Considering the stakes, I guess he can shrug that off.

But what if the plan had been to execute only one of the prisoners, and for the other four prisoners to live out very long lives on Galactica, kept alive by a drug developed from human antigens? In that case, Helo could have thwarted the plan only by murdering four prisoners who otherwise had the rest of their lives ahead of them. (Cally's case established that retiring a skin job isn't murder in a ''legal'' sense, but it surely is in the minds of Helo and Athena, especially if the subject can't download.)

This action would have been possible to rationalize in terms of the numbers -- killing four to save the rest of the race -- but the moral issues couldn't simply have been ignored, especially considering the fact that there's no guarantee that the genocidal plan would have worked anyway. Helo would have had to grapple with the fact that, in order to destroy this potentially genocidal biological weapon, he murdered four defenseless prisoners (or five, if you include the one who was about to be killed anyway).

This series has so far shown a willingness to delve into issues of moral complexity, so I'm not going to leap to the conclusion that the writers chose the route they did for the purpose of sidestepping these complexities, but I do think it would have been more interesting (and more believable, since there really is no reason given to kill all five prisoners) if they had gone the other route.

--[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 03:30, 26 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Hera Agathon/Archive 1

2006-11-26T02:18:01Z

Capedia: /* "Caprica" Valerii? */

I removed the 'Cylon agent' label, as Hera is only half-Biocylon and certainly not, at the present time, an agent working for the Cylons.
3/2/2006 21:24 P.M. by Noneofyourbusiness

:That's why, when I did a preliminary write up, I didn't check off "Cylon agent" by putting "y", but left "???" question marks, hoping someone would get to deciding on this eventually.
::Yes, but unfortunately that still caused the article to say 'Cylon agent'.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:35, 16 March 2006 (EST)

Frankly, I had the wacky idea that we should consider the Hybrids a third race with their own article, but this didn't meet with much support, and as Hera is the only current Hybrid, it doesn't make a lot of sense just yet. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:10, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:That makes perfect sense to me. The hybrids are definitionally different, and hugely important. Still, you are correct....not a whole lot to say about them just yet. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 21:06, 16 March 2006 (CST)

Someday, she will grow up to become one of the main characters of the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|reimagined series]]. -- [[User:John-1107|John-1107]] 17:19, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::Anyone think we should put a cap of her very-cool debut in the Cylon Baby Commercial? --[[Sauron18|Sauron18]] 5 March 2006

== character name ==

"Isis" is the greek name of an Egyptian goddess. It's interesting that Maya would name her so. It's probably nothing, but since tha writers like to play games with names and callsigns, could it have any significance? Isis was associted with several Greek goddesses by Plutarch and Herodotus. [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:31, 16 March 2006 (EST)
:Both Hera and Isis are mother goddesses--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 16 March 2006 (EST)
::In a deleted scene from Downloaded, as Gina and D'anna scheme to kidnap Hera, Gina expresses her disgust at Hera being named for a human god. When D'anna asks what they should call her, Gina suggests "Thirteen." Should we add this to the article? --[[User:Slander|Slander]], 10:31, October 18, 2006 (CST)
:::It should probably be noted, yes, but not in the main article body. Probably best to do it in the notes section, since the content was never cut into the final episode, and no mention of the attempt was brought up in subsequent episodes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:58, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Mission accomplished, Admiral. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:18, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

==Silent Baby==
Anyone notice how unnaturally silent Hera is? I mean, Roslin and Maya trust her to be silent enough to take her to every class they teach (judging by the crib being in the school). Is this possibly due to her Cylon nature? I thought it interesting to notice.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:15 June 06, 2006

:Now that you bring it up, Hera is now a toddler, which means she ''should'' be walking about (or trying to) and should be more alert that what I remember in the show. A year-old in a crib is usually an invitation for noise: toddlers are explorers and don't like to be restrained as much. I don't necessarily agree with your comment--not all babies are vocal or cry for no reason--but it's an interesting take. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:39, 6 June 2006 (CDT)

::Well it's true, every baby is different, but I think that under those conditions (lots of noise, cold) a baby would normally not be as tolerant. I don't know, maybe she isn't silent because she's a Cylon, but she feels the noise and cold less because she's a Cylon. Could be either, I'll investigate further on babies that age.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:54 June 06, 2006

Guys....we've seen this baby post-birth for a combined total of 5 minutes of screentime; that's not much to judge her behavior on. She's not particularly silent. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:56, 6 June 2006 (CDT)

:::And she was a premee too. Sometimes premees have to have a little extra time to develop to catch up with the time missed in the womb. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 15:49 June 06, 2006 PST

==No superaging like in other scifi shows==

From the website "http://www.geos.tv/index.php/article/bg2/1727?PHPSESSID=fa1d0b29c7298d00dffc9cd8929330ca" quoting an interview with David Eick and Ron Moore with Michael Ausiello from TV Guide, I have the following quote: "Probably one of the most interesting developments of the series is the birth of the Cylon hybrid, little Hera/Isis (seen at the end of Season 2). Although she will not age rapidly (as has been done in other sci-fi series), she will probably possess "physiological differences that make this child different than a human child." The rumors posted on the boards that another hybrid child will be born on New Caprica have proven to be false. There will only be the Hera/Isis hybrid baby, although a new type of Cylon will be shown in Episode 305."
I haven't verified this against TV Guide's website and I don't necesarily know how much of this could be placed in the article page. I was thinking that there was something with the "physiological differences that make this child differnt than a human child" part. Anyways, fruitful for discussion maybe. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 14:09 June 29, 2006 PST
:This really doesn't need to be worked into the article (kind of why I didn't do it myself when I read that), but yeah they've repeatedly said they aren't going to do what "V" did and make it grow faster. The "new Cylon" is not a "hybrid" like the Human/Cylon Hybrid, but a "hybrid" in the sense that it's kind of the intermediate stage between Centurion and biomechanical humanoid Cylon, an earlier model. That will be interesting, but not to be confused with the Hybrids. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:19, 29 June 2006 (CDT)
::As a true irrelevancy, "Angel" also rapidly aged a child. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:32, 29 June 2006 (CDT)
:::In an interesting twist [[Wikipedia:The 4400 | The 4400]], had an infant age rapidly, but her mother aged at the same rate and finally died. The 4400 is one of my quick fixes to survive until October. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:52, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

::::(/caffienebuzz) I think one of Hera's new abilities is that her poopie smells like cookies! --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:03, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:::::LOL! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 07:34, 30 June 2006 (CDT)

== "Caprica" Valerii? ==

From the article: ''Her parents are the human Lt. Karl "Helo" Agathon of Galactica and a copy of the Number Eight-model of Cylon ("Caprica" Valerii)''

This is the first time I have seen the moniker "Caprica" Valerii. I find it potentially confusing considering that when Hera was born this Valerii was living on Galatica and Boomer was living on Caprica. Wouldn't it make more sense to identify them by their call signs rather than transitorily-accurate descriptions like Caprica Valerii and Galactica Valerii?

[[User:Capedia|Capedia]]

:While it has been a struggle to name some of the models, fortunately they gave us a break on this particular one. I went ahead and switched it over to Sharon Agathon in this case, and theoretically any link still pointing to "Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)" should also be changed likewise (if nothing else to avoid the redirect). That still leaves us with "Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)", which is less than ideal, but I think that a straight "Boomer" might confuse folks just as much. (Which Boomer?) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:00, 25 November 2006 (CST)

::When did she start using the name Sharon Agathon? I hadn't even noticed it. I haven't missed any episodes (up through [[Hero]], which is the last episode that has been aired here), so I'm pretty sure I haven't missed a wedding or a big argument over whether it's possible for somebody to marry a toaster. Did they marry under the radar? Is the marriage generally accepted as valid? For all of BSG's grappling with real world issues, I'm surprised they sidestepped this "definition of marriage" issue, which is current a hot issue here in the U.S. --[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 18:15, 25 November 2006 (CST)

:::Check "Precipice":
:::'''Adama''': Raise your right hand and repeat after me. "I, Sharon Agathon …"
:::'''Sharon''': I, Sharon Agathon …
:::'''Adama''': "Do now pledge my faith and my loyalty..."
:::'''Sharon''': Do now pledge my faith and my loyalty...
:::'''Adama''': "To the protection of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol."
:::'''Sharon''': To the protection of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol.
:::So, like I said, they at least solved THAT particular naming conundrum for us. Coming up with names for all the other copies (of all the different Cylons) is a different problem. Though as the particular models get screen/story time they hopefully will develop distinct enough characteristics for useful naming. We'll probably always have a need for the model number pages as a "home page" for each model, though. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 19:57, 25 November 2006 (CST)

::::Is that the only reference so far to the name or the marriage? It seems that Helo and Athena consider themselves to be man and wife, and that Admiral Adama sees them that way, but public and legal acceptance of the marriage as valid may yet be an interesting issue. Then again, maybe not. The apocolyptic setting would probably make the whole "defense of marriage" thing look even more banal than it does in rl. --[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 20:18, 25 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Toaster/Archive 1

2006-11-26T01:43:30Z

Capedia: /* Star Trek reference? */

: ''See [[Talk:Toaster (alternate)]] for additional discussions regarding a revised version of this article.''

Does anybody think we should upload an image of an actual toaster to illustrate this page? I know a lot of the contributors here seem to be fairly serious individuals, but if someone could do it I think it would be cute. Just a pic of an actual chrome toaster - it'll be great, I think.
:''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 21:41, 7 October 2005 (EDT)''

I've found one that's nondescript enough: (which was removed and uploaded to the Wiki--Spencerian)

Spencerian, do what you've got to do!
:''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 21:45, 7 October 2005 (EDT)''

Adorable. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:06, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

The Toaster is watching all of us, and waiting for its time to return home. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:27, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

:I really think the character box itself is overboard and must go, though the other in article stuff as well as picture can stay.---Ricimer, October 8, 2005

::Yeah, okay. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:48, 8 October 2005 (EDT)

::The character box is perfect for a page that's certainly never going to grow larger. It's arguably the most humorous article we have. I think it really livens up the thing, especially considering it's supposed to be a racial epiphet. Silly page, right? Before we ransack it, let it sit for a bit and get a group consensus. If the majority's a bit too anal about it, we make the change. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:41, 8 October 2005 (EDT)
:::It was only meant to be a word defination page, exactly like the "[[frak]]" page. We are not trying to "liven things up" so much as we are striving for accuracy.---Ricimer, October 8, 2005
::::You have a point, albeit tenuous for this one page. Let's let consensus work here for a few days. If Peter, of ALL people, finds the site humorous enough to create a category for future pages, then others may find it enjoyable enough. Besides, the information there remains accurate, and a BSG toaster "is" really a Cylon (just not the bread-using kind). And, frankly, Ricimer, I know this article was good for me as you and Jzanjani's antics haven't made me laugh much in the last few days. I don't know, maybe the "frak" page could use a little levity...heh-heh. And, let's see what Joe says about it. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:02, 8 October 2005 (EDT)

== Our Silly Pages should be rare ==

Not that our wiki should have too many of these as it defeats the informative nature of our site, but, damn, if you haven't clicked on the article link for Cylons on Unencylopedia, please do so. That is the ANTI-wiki site where misinformation is not only allowed, but encouraged. I think I busted a tear gland reading a couple of entries there. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:06, 25 October 2005 (EDT)

:Those are hilarious "articles," thanks for the heads up on that one. It may have been a Freudian slip, however, I think you meant UnenCYCLOpedia, not UnenCYLO(N)pedia. ;) --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 23:33:25, 2005-10-25 (EDT)

::Wow...didn't realize I did that....I'm spending way too much time in here.... [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:31, 26 October 2005 (EDT)

== The Latest Additions ==

...In particular, the picture of the toaster with the red-eye indicator, are just too frakking funny. Made me laugh on a day where laughter is very hard to come by; thanks Kahran and Joe. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 27 January 2006 (EST)

== A Call for Standards ==

I propose that this page be reverted to the edit on 02:09, 8 October 2005. I have before expressed my personal belief that while certain of our "extra" articles may be fun (drinking games and such), turning this actual term from the series into a "silly" article has added nothing to it. The crux of it, is that as BSWiki editors, it is our responsibility to strive for accuracy, Non-POV statements, etc. "Toaster" is an actual term on the series. Making changes to it has shown that we have fallen away from our own high standards. At least, the high standards that I would like us to maintain, if I were in a position to do so.

Further: The two chief supporters of this current version seem to be Spencerian and Peter Farago; Joe never commented on it one way or the other. Enough time has passed that we must re-evaluate the current consensus as to its fate, and then '''we must obey the Will of the Consensus'''. --->We need to assess how the current community stands on this: troll '''Jzanjani''' has been banned repeatedly, and if his ban has expired, he has chosen not to return here for months. Meanwhile, Users Day and SteelViper ascended to Administrator status well ''after'' the last time there was serious discussion as to the standardized form of this page, which would leave 2 Administrators ''for'' the current version, 2 Administrators whose views are ''unknown'', and 1 Bureaucrat, Joe, who's view is either unknown, or he abstained. This decision must be made, and for the sake of accuracy, and the long-term standards which this wiki hopes to uphold, I for one support returning it to a standardized article. 5 by 5. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 04:42, 20 February 2006 (EST)

:I don't think that our status as administrator should have anything to do with the matter. All it means is that we've got that little "delete" button above this article, and that's not even what is being proposed. If Spencerian's or Peter's opinions carry any more weight around here than others it is more due to their reputations as editors than anything else (at least that's how it is for me). As for being in a position to maintain high standards... I think you're very much in a position to do so. Not only through the use of the "edit" button on the articles, but also through establishing [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] on talk pages (exactly like you are doing now).

:Since I'm here, though, I guess I'll share my opinion on this article. I like the middle stuff (actual use of the word within the series, with citations). While I'm not above [[:Image:Humanocylonfolder.jpg|ocassional silliness]] (I should delete at some point), links within the main article space should probably maintain the encyclopedic standards (in terms of S&C, and Citation Jihad). Perhaps a compromise could be reached, whereby a silly version of the page is linked to from here, but where the main article linked to by the main namespace would lead to the canon material. There's nothing wrong with a silly page now and again, but a user should probably know that they are going to be entering the silliness before they click on it, and I'm not sure that would be clear if you were just following a link to "Toaster". --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:45, 20 February 2006 (EST)

::The reason I made a proposal in talk, Steelviper, was because I had previously tried to edit this page some months ago, and was voted down. I decided that enough time had passed that consensus might have changed, and to be polite and follow proper etiquette, I therefore made the proposal above. 5 by 5.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:56, 20 February 2006 (EST)

:::Striving for accuracy on the wiki as a whole is mission-critical, yes. Being anal about it is not. Even the BSG creators have some ''non sequitur'' fun in the show (as early as the miniseries with the cameo SF spacecraft), and this place is no different. The emphasis should always be on accuracy, but, as I already expressed on this page, silly pages here should and will remain rare. The majority has ruled (by censensus as they edit and by page views) as well as the minority long ago (and long before Joe elected anyone as admins). Frankly, Merv, you've lost this consensus a long time ago. Even Wikipedia has some silliness: See [[Wikipedia:Extreme ironing]] as one example. We still encourage you to just ignore the existence of these pages if they really bother you; the remainder of the wiki is properly encyclopedic. The proper definition of toaster is here; the rest is designed to keep all of us from taking this place too seriously, as should you. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:30, 20 February 2006 (EST)

::::In all fairness Spencerian, it is somewhat premature to state that I have "lost" the consensus, when in fact, only you, myself, and SteelViper has as of this posting checked in yet. And SteelViper seems to be leaning more towards compromise/revision, rather than simply keeping it. I respect your opinion, and based on the earlier stuff I knew you would probably not support this change, however, not everyone might share this view towards sillyness on a page which is an actual article (within the show). I believe we should wait for further news. Meanwhile, I'll put it to vote:

'''Should this article be standardized, and no longer be a silly page?'''
Vote for all outcomes which you would find acceptable.

:'''Keep its current silly form'''
:#We need the levity here far more than we need a dissertation on the use of the term "Toaster" in Battlestar Galactica. Maybe we can revisit this if we ever get more than Six's throwaway about it being a "racial epithet". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:31, 20 February 2006 (EST)
:#Keep as a silly page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:35, 20 February 2006 (EST)
:# --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 20 February 2006 (EST)
:#I like this page just the way it is. --Ltcrashdown 23:48, 20 February 2006 (EST)
:#Don't see why we can't have a little fun here, once in a while. Besides, if we were to be ''serious'' about it, Toaster would really rediect to [[Cylons (RDM)]] article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 00:25, 21 February 2006 (EST)
:Keep as silly - its a fun article and perhaps if a little more sensible info was put at the top of the page then both parties could be happy? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 03:41, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

:'''Compromise of some kind (moving to "Silly" name space or something)'''
:# --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 20 February 2006 (EST)

:'''Standardize this article back to a non-silly terminology page'''
:#Standardize it.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:17, 20 February 2006 (EST)
:#This stuff belongs on Uncyclopedia, go [http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Cylon there] if you need a laugh. I seem to be on the losing side here though. Could we at least have the opening paragraph sensible? Otherwise we can't link to toaster to explain the word. --[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 02:04, 21 February 2006 (EST)

Day, I do not believe you can vote in more than one category. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:11, 21 February 2006 (EST)

: Sure you can. I changed the rules before voting. ;) This would benefit, I think, from a similar voting system to the one used when discussing the spoiler policy. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:41, 22 February 2006 (EST)

: I....am confused. Regardless, "although I hate to judge before all the facts are in" (Dr. Strangelove), I can see this probably won't pass; I'd wait a few days for stragglers, though. Well, the consensus has spoken; that great leveler. I cheerfully support these results. Voting thing is still confusing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 04:59, 22 February 2006 (EST)

:: If this were a more divisive issue, I think it would make more sense. Everyone votes for whatever they'd find acceptable. Thus, whichever has the most votes is acceptable to the most people. It allows people to be able to note that they support one of the mutually exclusive cases, as well as a compromise. It's better explained on [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy/Archive01#Vote|this archive]] of the Spoiler Policy talk. Sorry for being confusing. I can get like that. --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:14, 22 February 2006 (EST)

:::Even the venerable Wikipedia has some fun now and then. Take, for instance, [[Wikipedia:Extreme ironing|Extreme Ironing]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:51, 13 May 2006 (CDT)

== The Toaster's "Parent" ==

I'm afraid that the "Toaster" of the character box was born asexually (so to speak. Proctor-Silex implies two parents, while singular names imply one). I was in a kitchen shop the other day (don't ask why) and I saw that ''exact brand of toaster'' they used in the show for sale. It's made by Dualit. Even though the corporate logo was removed from the toaster's facade, I think the company of origin should be noted, if not as a parent then in a Notes section. Ideas anyone? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 22:54, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
: If we have a source to back this up, I don't see why this piece of trivia shouldn't be included. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 07:55, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
:For some reason, the notion of ensuring we have an accurate source for the brand of an actual toaster makes me giggle each time I think of it, in our desire for accuracy for even one of our most ''irreverent'' articles. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:00, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
::I found the toaster model on the website I linked over on, I believe, Sauron's talk page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:31, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Yep, that's definitely the model I saw. I suppose that makes it official. Dualit is the Toaster's parent. --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 10:44, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
::::[http://www.dualit.com/content.asp?page=/catalogue/productRange.asp?categoryCode=15 External Link] swiped from [[User talk:Sauron18]].--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:45, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thanks, that's the one SV. I love how they covered up the name stamped on the toaster, they just screwed on a plate over it. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:50, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
::::::I agree Talos, that approach is rather humorous. It's not creative by any means, but brutally functional nonetheless. Too bad they couldn't have just pasted the name of a Colonial appliance company on the Toaster...otherwise I would have had another article to write! But could you imagine what it would be like if they hadn't covered the name and some fans noticed? An Earth company in the Colonies. I can only imagine the crazy theories that would surface on the Internet (a similar fiasco occured after the Miniseries, where Tigh said "Jesus." Since the fans knew that Christianity wasn't even known to the Colonies, some insane theories came out on threads).

== Star Trek reference? ==

From the ST:TNG episode [[MemoryAlpha:The Measure of a Man|The Measure of a Man]]:

:''"You want me to try and prove that Data's a mere machine. I can't. I don't believe it. I know he's more than that. I'm neither qualified nor willing to do this. You're going to have to find someone else."''
:''"Then I'll rule summarily based upon my findings. Data is a toaster. Have him report to Commander Maddox immediately for experimental refit."''
::- Riker and Phillipa

Is this why Cylons are called toasters?

Talk:Toaster/Archive 1

2006-11-26T00:37:20Z

Capedia: Star Trek reference?

: ''See [[Talk:Toaster (alternate)]] for additional discussions regarding a revised version of this article.''

Does anybody think we should upload an image of an actual toaster to illustrate this page? I know a lot of the contributors here seem to be fairly serious individuals, but if someone could do it I think it would be cute. Just a pic of an actual chrome toaster - it'll be great, I think.
:''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 21:41, 7 October 2005 (EDT)''

I've found one that's nondescript enough: (which was removed and uploaded to the Wiki--Spencerian)

Spencerian, do what you've got to do!
:''[[User:Jzanjani|Jzanjani]] 21:45, 7 October 2005 (EDT)''

Adorable. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:06, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

The Toaster is watching all of us, and waiting for its time to return home. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:27, 7 October 2005 (EDT)

:I really think the character box itself is overboard and must go, though the other in article stuff as well as picture can stay.---Ricimer, October 8, 2005

::Yeah, okay. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:48, 8 October 2005 (EDT)

::The character box is perfect for a page that's certainly never going to grow larger. It's arguably the most humorous article we have. I think it really livens up the thing, especially considering it's supposed to be a racial epiphet. Silly page, right? Before we ransack it, let it sit for a bit and get a group consensus. If the majority's a bit too anal about it, we make the change. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:41, 8 October 2005 (EDT)
:::It was only meant to be a word defination page, exactly like the "[[frak]]" page. We are not trying to "liven things up" so much as we are striving for accuracy.---Ricimer, October 8, 2005
::::You have a point, albeit tenuous for this one page. Let's let consensus work here for a few days. If Peter, of ALL people, finds the site humorous enough to create a category for future pages, then others may find it enjoyable enough. Besides, the information there remains accurate, and a BSG toaster "is" really a Cylon (just not the bread-using kind). And, frankly, Ricimer, I know this article was good for me as you and Jzanjani's antics haven't made me laugh much in the last few days. I don't know, maybe the "frak" page could use a little levity...heh-heh. And, let's see what Joe says about it. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:02, 8 October 2005 (EDT)

== Our Silly Pages should be rare ==

Not that our wiki should have too many of these as it defeats the informative nature of our site, but, damn, if you haven't clicked on the article link for Cylons on Unencylopedia, please do so. That is the ANTI-wiki site where misinformation is not only allowed, but encouraged. I think I busted a tear gland reading a couple of entries there. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:06, 25 October 2005 (EDT)

:Those are hilarious "articles," thanks for the heads up on that one. It may have been a Freudian slip, however, I think you meant UnenCYCLOpedia, not UnenCYLO(N)pedia. ;) --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 23:33:25, 2005-10-25 (EDT)

::Wow...didn't realize I did that....I'm spending way too much time in here.... [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:31, 26 October 2005 (EDT)

== The Latest Additions ==

...In particular, the picture of the toaster with the red-eye indicator, are just too frakking funny. Made me laugh on a day where laughter is very hard to come by; thanks Kahran and Joe. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:42, 27 January 2006 (EST)

== A Call for Standards ==

I propose that this page be reverted to the edit on 02:09, 8 October 2005. I have before expressed my personal belief that while certain of our "extra" articles may be fun (drinking games and such), turning this actual term from the series into a "silly" article has added nothing to it. The crux of it, is that as BSWiki editors, it is our responsibility to strive for accuracy, Non-POV statements, etc. "Toaster" is an actual term on the series. Making changes to it has shown that we have fallen away from our own high standards. At least, the high standards that I would like us to maintain, if I were in a position to do so.

Further: The two chief supporters of this current version seem to be Spencerian and Peter Farago; Joe never commented on it one way or the other. Enough time has passed that we must re-evaluate the current consensus as to its fate, and then '''we must obey the Will of the Consensus'''. --->We need to assess how the current community stands on this: troll '''Jzanjani''' has been banned repeatedly, and if his ban has expired, he has chosen not to return here for months. Meanwhile, Users Day and SteelViper ascended to Administrator status well ''after'' the last time there was serious discussion as to the standardized form of this page, which would leave 2 Administrators ''for'' the current version, 2 Administrators whose views are ''unknown'', and 1 Bureaucrat, Joe, who's view is either unknown, or he abstained. This decision must be made, and for the sake of accuracy, and the long-term standards which this wiki hopes to uphold, I for one support returning it to a standardized article. 5 by 5. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 04:42, 20 February 2006 (EST)

:I don't think that our status as administrator should have anything to do with the matter. All it means is that we've got that little "delete" button above this article, and that's not even what is being proposed. If Spencerian's or Peter's opinions carry any more weight around here than others it is more due to their reputations as editors than anything else (at least that's how it is for me). As for being in a position to maintain high standards... I think you're very much in a position to do so. Not only through the use of the "edit" button on the articles, but also through establishing [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] on talk pages (exactly like you are doing now).

:Since I'm here, though, I guess I'll share my opinion on this article. I like the middle stuff (actual use of the word within the series, with citations). While I'm not above [[:Image:Humanocylonfolder.jpg|ocassional silliness]] (I should delete at some point), links within the main article space should probably maintain the encyclopedic standards (in terms of S&C, and Citation Jihad). Perhaps a compromise could be reached, whereby a silly version of the page is linked to from here, but where the main article linked to by the main namespace would lead to the canon material. There's nothing wrong with a silly page now and again, but a user should probably know that they are going to be entering the silliness before they click on it, and I'm not sure that would be clear if you were just following a link to "Toaster". --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:45, 20 February 2006 (EST)

::The reason I made a proposal in talk, Steelviper, was because I had previously tried to edit this page some months ago, and was voted down. I decided that enough time had passed that consensus might have changed, and to be polite and follow proper etiquette, I therefore made the proposal above. 5 by 5.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:56, 20 February 2006 (EST)

:::Striving for accuracy on the wiki as a whole is mission-critical, yes. Being anal about it is not. Even the BSG creators have some ''non sequitur'' fun in the show (as early as the miniseries with the cameo SF spacecraft), and this place is no different. The emphasis should always be on accuracy, but, as I already expressed on this page, silly pages here should and will remain rare. The majority has ruled (by censensus as they edit and by page views) as well as the minority long ago (and long before Joe elected anyone as admins). Frankly, Merv, you've lost this consensus a long time ago. Even Wikipedia has some silliness: See [[Wikipedia:Extreme ironing]] as one example. We still encourage you to just ignore the existence of these pages if they really bother you; the remainder of the wiki is properly encyclopedic. The proper definition of toaster is here; the rest is designed to keep all of us from taking this place too seriously, as should you. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:30, 20 February 2006 (EST)

::::In all fairness Spencerian, it is somewhat premature to state that I have "lost" the consensus, when in fact, only you, myself, and SteelViper has as of this posting checked in yet. And SteelViper seems to be leaning more towards compromise/revision, rather than simply keeping it. I respect your opinion, and based on the earlier stuff I knew you would probably not support this change, however, not everyone might share this view towards sillyness on a page which is an actual article (within the show). I believe we should wait for further news. Meanwhile, I'll put it to vote:

'''Should this article be standardized, and no longer be a silly page?'''
Vote for all outcomes which you would find acceptable.

:'''Keep its current silly form'''
:#We need the levity here far more than we need a dissertation on the use of the term "Toaster" in Battlestar Galactica. Maybe we can revisit this if we ever get more than Six's throwaway about it being a "racial epithet". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:31, 20 February 2006 (EST)
:#Keep as a silly page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:35, 20 February 2006 (EST)
:# --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 20 February 2006 (EST)
:#I like this page just the way it is. --Ltcrashdown 23:48, 20 February 2006 (EST)
:#Don't see why we can't have a little fun here, once in a while. Besides, if we were to be ''serious'' about it, Toaster would really rediect to [[Cylons (RDM)]] article. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 00:25, 21 February 2006 (EST)
:Keep as silly - its a fun article and perhaps if a little more sensible info was put at the top of the page then both parties could be happy? --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 03:41, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

:'''Compromise of some kind (moving to "Silly" name space or something)'''
:# --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:46, 20 February 2006 (EST)

:'''Standardize this article back to a non-silly terminology page'''
:#Standardize it.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:17, 20 February 2006 (EST)
:#This stuff belongs on Uncyclopedia, go [http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Cylon there] if you need a laugh. I seem to be on the losing side here though. Could we at least have the opening paragraph sensible? Otherwise we can't link to toaster to explain the word. --[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 02:04, 21 February 2006 (EST)

Day, I do not believe you can vote in more than one category. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:11, 21 February 2006 (EST)

: Sure you can. I changed the rules before voting. ;) This would benefit, I think, from a similar voting system to the one used when discussing the spoiler policy. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:41, 22 February 2006 (EST)

: I....am confused. Regardless, "although I hate to judge before all the facts are in" (Dr. Strangelove), I can see this probably won't pass; I'd wait a few days for stragglers, though. Well, the consensus has spoken; that great leveler. I cheerfully support these results. Voting thing is still confusing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 04:59, 22 February 2006 (EST)

:: If this were a more divisive issue, I think it would make more sense. Everyone votes for whatever they'd find acceptable. Thus, whichever has the most votes is acceptable to the most people. It allows people to be able to note that they support one of the mutually exclusive cases, as well as a compromise. It's better explained on [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy/Archive01#Vote|this archive]] of the Spoiler Policy talk. Sorry for being confusing. I can get like that. --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:14, 22 February 2006 (EST)

:::Even the venerable Wikipedia has some fun now and then. Take, for instance, [[Wikipedia:Extreme ironing|Extreme Ironing]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:51, 13 May 2006 (CDT)

== The Toaster's "Parent" ==

I'm afraid that the "Toaster" of the character box was born asexually (so to speak. Proctor-Silex implies two parents, while singular names imply one). I was in a kitchen shop the other day (don't ask why) and I saw that ''exact brand of toaster'' they used in the show for sale. It's made by Dualit. Even though the corporate logo was removed from the toaster's facade, I think the company of origin should be noted, if not as a parent then in a Notes section. Ideas anyone? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 22:54, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
: If we have a source to back this up, I don't see why this piece of trivia shouldn't be included. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 07:55, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
:For some reason, the notion of ensuring we have an accurate source for the brand of an actual toaster makes me giggle each time I think of it, in our desire for accuracy for even one of our most ''irreverent'' articles. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:00, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
::I found the toaster model on the website I linked over on, I believe, Sauron's talk page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:31, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Yep, that's definitely the model I saw. I suppose that makes it official. Dualit is the Toaster's parent. --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 10:44, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
::::[http://www.dualit.com/content.asp?page=/catalogue/productRange.asp?categoryCode=15 External Link] swiped from [[User talk:Sauron18]].--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:45, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
:::::Thanks, that's the one SV. I love how they covered up the name stamped on the toaster, they just screwed on a plate over it. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:50, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
::::::I agree Talos, that approach is rather humorous. It's not creative by any means, but brutally functional nonetheless. Too bad they couldn't have just pasted the name of a Colonial appliance company on the Toaster...otherwise I would have had another article to write! But could you imagine what it would be like if they hadn't covered the name and some fans noticed? An Earth company in the Colonies. I can only imagine the crazy theories that would surface on the Internet (a similar fiasco occured after the Miniseries, where Tigh said "Jesus." Since the fans knew that Christianity wasn't even known to the Colonies, some insane theories came out on threads).

== Star Trek reference? ==

From the ST:TNG episode [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Measure_of_a_Man The Measure of a Man]:

:''"You want me to try and prove that Data's a mere machine. I can't. I don't believe it. I know he's more than that. I'm neither qualified nor willing to do this. You're going to have to find someone else."''
:''"Then I'll rule summarily based upon my findings. Data is a toaster. Have him report to Commander Maddox immediately for experimental refit."''
::- Riker and Phillipa

Is this why Cylons are called toasters?

Talk:Hera Agathon/Archive 1

2006-11-26T00:21:21Z

Capedia: /* "Caprica" Valerii? */

Talk:Hera Agathon/Archive 1

2006-11-26T00:19:56Z

Capedia: /* "Caprica" Valerii? */

I removed the 'Cylon agent' label, as Hera is only half-Biocylon and certainly not, at the present time, an agent working for the Cylons.
3/2/2006 21:24 P.M. by Noneofyourbusiness

:That's why, when I did a preliminary write up, I didn't check off "Cylon agent" by putting "y", but left "???" question marks, hoping someone would get to deciding on this eventually.
::Yes, but unfortunately that still caused the article to say 'Cylon agent'.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:35, 16 March 2006 (EST)

Frankly, I had the wacky idea that we should consider the Hybrids a third race with their own article, but this didn't meet with much support, and as Hera is the only current Hybrid, it doesn't make a lot of sense just yet. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:10, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:That makes perfect sense to me. The hybrids are definitionally different, and hugely important. Still, you are correct....not a whole lot to say about them just yet. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 21:06, 16 March 2006 (CST)

Someday, she will grow up to become one of the main characters of the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|reimagined series]]. -- [[User:John-1107|John-1107]] 17:19, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::Anyone think we should put a cap of her very-cool debut in the Cylon Baby Commercial? --[[Sauron18|Sauron18]] 5 March 2006

== character name ==

"Isis" is the greek name of an Egyptian goddess. It's interesting that Maya would name her so. It's probably nothing, but since tha writers like to play games with names and callsigns, could it have any significance? Isis was associted with several Greek goddesses by Plutarch and Herodotus. [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:31, 16 March 2006 (EST)
:Both Hera and Isis are mother goddesses--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 16 March 2006 (EST)
::In a deleted scene from Downloaded, as Gina and D'anna scheme to kidnap Hera, Gina expresses her disgust at Hera being named for a human god. When D'anna asks what they should call her, Gina suggests "Thirteen." Should we add this to the article? --[[User:Slander|Slander]], 10:31, October 18, 2006 (CST)
:::It should probably be noted, yes, but not in the main article body. Probably best to do it in the notes section, since the content was never cut into the final episode, and no mention of the attempt was brought up in subsequent episodes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:58, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Mission accomplished, Admiral. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:18, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

==Silent Baby==
Anyone notice how unnaturally silent Hera is? I mean, Roslin and Maya trust her to be silent enough to take her to every class they teach (judging by the crib being in the school). Is this possibly due to her Cylon nature? I thought it interesting to notice.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:15 June 06, 2006

:Now that you bring it up, Hera is now a toddler, which means she ''should'' be walking about (or trying to) and should be more alert that what I remember in the show. A year-old in a crib is usually an invitation for noise: toddlers are explorers and don't like to be restrained as much. I don't necessarily agree with your comment--not all babies are vocal or cry for no reason--but it's an interesting take. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:39, 6 June 2006 (CDT)

::Well it's true, every baby is different, but I think that under those conditions (lots of noise, cold) a baby would normally not be as tolerant. I don't know, maybe she isn't silent because she's a Cylon, but she feels the noise and cold less because she's a Cylon. Could be either, I'll investigate further on babies that age.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:54 June 06, 2006

Guys....we've seen this baby post-birth for a combined total of 5 minutes of screentime; that's not much to judge her behavior on. She's not particularly silent. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:56, 6 June 2006 (CDT)

:::And she was a premee too. Sometimes premees have to have a little extra time to develop to catch up with the time missed in the womb. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 15:49 June 06, 2006 PST

==No superaging like in other scifi shows==

From the website "http://www.geos.tv/index.php/article/bg2/1727?PHPSESSID=fa1d0b29c7298d00dffc9cd8929330ca" quoting an interview with David Eick and Ron Moore with Michael Ausiello from TV Guide, I have the following quote: "Probably one of the most interesting developments of the series is the birth of the Cylon hybrid, little Hera/Isis (seen at the end of Season 2). Although she will not age rapidly (as has been done in other sci-fi series), she will probably possess "physiological differences that make this child different than a human child." The rumors posted on the boards that another hybrid child will be born on New Caprica have proven to be false. There will only be the Hera/Isis hybrid baby, although a new type of Cylon will be shown in Episode 305."
I haven't verified this against TV Guide's website and I don't necesarily know how much of this could be placed in the article page. I was thinking that there was something with the "physiological differences that make this child differnt than a human child" part. Anyways, fruitful for discussion maybe. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 14:09 June 29, 2006 PST
:This really doesn't need to be worked into the article (kind of why I didn't do it myself when I read that), but yeah they've repeatedly said they aren't going to do what "V" did and make it grow faster. The "new Cylon" is not a "hybrid" like the Human/Cylon Hybrid, but a "hybrid" in the sense that it's kind of the intermediate stage between Centurion and biomechanical humanoid Cylon, an earlier model. That will be interesting, but not to be confused with the Hybrids. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:19, 29 June 2006 (CDT)
::As a true irrelevancy, "Angel" also rapidly aged a child. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:32, 29 June 2006 (CDT)
:::In an interesting twist [[Wikipedia:The 4400 | The 4400]], had an infant age rapidly, but her mother aged at the same rate and finally died. The 4400 is one of my quick fixes to survive until October. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:52, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

::::(/caffienebuzz) I think one of Hera's new abilities is that her poopie smells like cookies! --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:03, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:::::LOL! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 07:34, 30 June 2006 (CDT)

== "Caprica" Valerii? ==

From the article: ''Her parents are the human Lt. Karl "Helo" Agathon of Galactica and a copy of the Number Eight-model of Cylon ("Caprica" Valerii)''

This is the first time I have seen the moniker "Caprica" Valerii. I find it potentially confusing considering that when Hera was born this Valerii was living on Galatica and Boomer was living on Caprica. Wouldn't it make more sense to identify them by their call signs rather than transitorily-accurate descriptions like Caprica Valerii and Galactica Valerii?

[[User:Capedia|Capedia]]

:While it has been a struggle to name some of the models, fortunately they gave us a break on this particular one. I went ahead and switched it over to Sharon Agathon in this case, and theoretically any link still pointing to "Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)" should also be changed likewise (if nothing else to avoid the redirect). That still leaves us with "Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)", which is less than ideal, but I think that a straight "Boomer" might confuse folks just as much. (Which Boomer?) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:00, 25 November 2006 (CST)

::When did she start using the name Sharon Agathon? I hadn't even noticed it. I haven't missed any episodes (up through [[Hero]], which is the last episode that has been aired here), so I'm pretty sure I haven't missed a wedding or a big argument over whether it's possible for somebody to marry a toaster. Did they marry under the radar? Is the marriage generally accepted as valid? For all of BSG's grappling with real world issues, I'm surprised they sidestepped this "definition of marriage" issue, which is current a hot issue here in the U.S.--[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 18:15, 25 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Hera Agathon/Archive 1

2006-11-26T00:15:10Z

Capedia: /* "Caprica" Valerii? */

I removed the 'Cylon agent' label, as Hera is only half-Biocylon and certainly not, at the present time, an agent working for the Cylons.
3/2/2006 21:24 P.M. by Noneofyourbusiness

:That's why, when I did a preliminary write up, I didn't check off "Cylon agent" by putting "y", but left "???" question marks, hoping someone would get to deciding on this eventually.
::Yes, but unfortunately that still caused the article to say 'Cylon agent'.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:35, 16 March 2006 (EST)

Frankly, I had the wacky idea that we should consider the Hybrids a third race with their own article, but this didn't meet with much support, and as Hera is the only current Hybrid, it doesn't make a lot of sense just yet. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:10, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:That makes perfect sense to me. The hybrids are definitionally different, and hugely important. Still, you are correct....not a whole lot to say about them just yet. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 21:06, 16 March 2006 (CST)

Someday, she will grow up to become one of the main characters of the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|reimagined series]]. -- [[User:John-1107|John-1107]] 17:19, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::Anyone think we should put a cap of her very-cool debut in the Cylon Baby Commercial? --[[Sauron18|Sauron18]] 5 March 2006

== character name ==

"Isis" is the greek name of an Egyptian goddess. It's interesting that Maya would name her so. It's probably nothing, but since tha writers like to play games with names and callsigns, could it have any significance? Isis was associted with several Greek goddesses by Plutarch and Herodotus. [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 19:31, 16 March 2006 (EST)
:Both Hera and Isis are mother goddesses--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:36, 16 March 2006 (EST)
::In a deleted scene from Downloaded, as Gina and D'anna scheme to kidnap Hera, Gina expresses her disgust at Hera being named for a human god. When D'anna asks what they should call her, Gina suggests "Thirteen." Should we add this to the article? --[[User:Slander|Slander]], 10:31, October 18, 2006 (CST)
:::It should probably be noted, yes, but not in the main article body. Probably best to do it in the notes section, since the content was never cut into the final episode, and no mention of the attempt was brought up in subsequent episodes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:58, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Mission accomplished, Admiral. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:18, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

==Silent Baby==
Anyone notice how unnaturally silent Hera is? I mean, Roslin and Maya trust her to be silent enough to take her to every class they teach (judging by the crib being in the school). Is this possibly due to her Cylon nature? I thought it interesting to notice.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:15 June 06, 2006

:Now that you bring it up, Hera is now a toddler, which means she ''should'' be walking about (or trying to) and should be more alert that what I remember in the show. A year-old in a crib is usually an invitation for noise: toddlers are explorers and don't like to be restrained as much. I don't necessarily agree with your comment--not all babies are vocal or cry for no reason--but it's an interesting take. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:39, 6 June 2006 (CDT)

::Well it's true, every baby is different, but I think that under those conditions (lots of noise, cold) a baby would normally not be as tolerant. I don't know, maybe she isn't silent because she's a Cylon, but she feels the noise and cold less because she's a Cylon. Could be either, I'll investigate further on babies that age.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:54 June 06, 2006

Guys....we've seen this baby post-birth for a combined total of 5 minutes of screentime; that's not much to judge her behavior on. She's not particularly silent. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:56, 6 June 2006 (CDT)

:::And she was a premee too. Sometimes premees have to have a little extra time to develop to catch up with the time missed in the womb. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 15:49 June 06, 2006 PST

==No superaging like in other scifi shows==

From the website "http://www.geos.tv/index.php/article/bg2/1727?PHPSESSID=fa1d0b29c7298d00dffc9cd8929330ca" quoting an interview with David Eick and Ron Moore with Michael Ausiello from TV Guide, I have the following quote: "Probably one of the most interesting developments of the series is the birth of the Cylon hybrid, little Hera/Isis (seen at the end of Season 2). Although she will not age rapidly (as has been done in other sci-fi series), she will probably possess "physiological differences that make this child different than a human child." The rumors posted on the boards that another hybrid child will be born on New Caprica have proven to be false. There will only be the Hera/Isis hybrid baby, although a new type of Cylon will be shown in Episode 305."
I haven't verified this against TV Guide's website and I don't necesarily know how much of this could be placed in the article page. I was thinking that there was something with the "physiological differences that make this child differnt than a human child" part. Anyways, fruitful for discussion maybe. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 14:09 June 29, 2006 PST
:This really doesn't need to be worked into the article (kind of why I didn't do it myself when I read that), but yeah they've repeatedly said they aren't going to do what "V" did and make it grow faster. The "new Cylon" is not a "hybrid" like the Human/Cylon Hybrid, but a "hybrid" in the sense that it's kind of the intermediate stage between Centurion and biomechanical humanoid Cylon, an earlier model. That will be interesting, but not to be confused with the Hybrids. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:19, 29 June 2006 (CDT)
::As a true irrelevancy, "Angel" also rapidly aged a child. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]]([[Special:Contributions/CalculatinAvatar|C]]-[[User talk:CalculatinAvatar|T]]) 19:32, 29 June 2006 (CDT)
:::In an interesting twist [[Wikipedia:The 4400 | The 4400]], had an infant age rapidly, but her mother aged at the same rate and finally died. The 4400 is one of my quick fixes to survive until October. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:52, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

::::(/caffienebuzz) I think one of Hera's new abilities is that her poopie smells like cookies! --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:03, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

:::::LOL! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 07:34, 30 June 2006 (CDT)

== "Caprica" Valerii? ==

From the article: ''Her parents are the human Lt. Karl "Helo" Agathon of Galactica and a copy of the Number Eight-model of Cylon ("Caprica" Valerii)''

This is the first time I have seen the moniker "Caprica" Valerii. I find it potentially confusing considering that when Hera was born this Valerii was living on Galatica and Boomer was living on Caprica. Wouldn't it make more sense to identify them by their call signs rather than transitorily-accurate descriptions like Caprica Valerii and Galactica Valerii?

[[User:Capedia|Capedia]]

:While it has been a struggle to name some of the models, fortunately they gave us a break on this particular one. I went ahead and switched it over to Sharon Agathon in this case, and theoretically any link still pointing to "Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)" should also be changed likewise (if nothing else to avoid the redirect). That still leaves us with "Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)", which is less than ideal, but I think that a straight "Boomer" might confuse folks just as much. (Which Boomer?) --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:00, 25 November 2006 (CST)

::When did she start using the name Sharon Agathon? I hadn't even noticed it. I haven't missed any episodes (up through [[Hero]], which is the last episode that has been aired here), so I'm pretty sure I haven't missed a wedding or a big argument over whether it's possible for somebody to marry a toaster. Are they actually married? --[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 18:15, 25 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Epiphanies/Archive 1

2006-11-25T22:57:27Z

Capedia: Cylon blood vs. human blood

I got the title of episode 2.12 from: [http://www.galacticastation.com/Galactica%20Station/episodes/Ep%20header%20img/S2/s2guide.htm Galactica Station]. I'd put the info in an Episode Guide Template but have yet to figure it out. Please if anyone doesn't mind teaching me how to use templates I'd like to know. Please leave the advice on my talk page.--Zareck Rocks 01:40, 18 September 2005 (EDT)
:Looks fascinating, Z. I was wondering if they would really let Roslin's character just die off when she's hitting her stride...at the same time, I was hoping they wouldn't, since cancer is cancer and, when as nasty as hers, is a fatal thing. But, the Cylons are good at bioengineering, so I can swallow this--to a point. Baltar's fix would have to rebuild damaged areas with good cells as well as destroying bad cells. Hey, I'm no doctor, but that's gotta hurt somehow. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:59, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
::Current speculation is that her disease is delayed, not cured, and that she'll again be near death by the end of the season. I don't have any source on that though. The notion of the amazing Dr. Baltar discovering a ''cure for cancer'' under the circumstances of the fleet is faintly ridiculous to me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:23, 22 September 2005 (EDT)
:: I wouldn't be surprised if there were some nasty side effects from whatever treatment Baltar (or whomever) devised. The whole "we have a cure for cancer" thing would go outside the boundaries of believability and realism, which Moore and crew are aiming for. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:11, 22 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I'll agree that an outright cure for cancer is very implausible considering all the conditions the fleet is under. It would also undermine the whole prophecy that it seems that the fleet is following. Yes Cylon biotech is advanced, but the colonials barely understand it at all. I could accept them finding a treatment that buys Roslin more time, but only as long as it's clear that it isn't a permament cure. --[[User:Wingsandsword|Wingsandsword]] 12:32, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

::: I'd say that was resolved, although it was a bit of a stretch...[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 23:18, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::: Rather eloquently stretched, at that. Seems like Cylon blood is a rather hardcore Chemo series, killing off the currently detectable malignancies. The root cause of the cancer is most likely still there, and working to re-proliferate through Roslin's system. As soon as the Cylon blood is processed and removed from her bloodstream, it should more than likely come back in full force (Which, unless I'm mistaken, takes roughly 120 days). --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 23:48, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: I put removed from her system, and not a cure on the page.--[[User:Shane|Shane]] 23:32, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: After listening to Ron Moore's blog, he is mentioning that Laura's character is too important for him to put on the sidelines for an illness. His initial plan was that she got weaker throughout the whole series, but felt that he didn't want her stuck in a hospital chair or whatnot. Granted the whole religious thing they say, "is that a dying leader will lead the people to salvation" is still up in the air, and I'm interested in seeing where they take it, if anywhere. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 14:20, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::: I haven't listened to the blog yet, but is it conceivable that the Cylon blood treatment itself might sicken/kill Roslin again in the long run? Perhaps the cancer is permanently gone, as was suggested by Doc Cottle. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 14:46, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:::: I think that Ron Moore panicked with the whole cancer thing. My grandmother had cancer for 10 years before it finally took her life and it was only in the last 6 months that she became seriously incapacitated, and that was because it did go to her brain. Prior, she had it in both breasts and her lungs but with surgery and treatment was able to function normally. Now, I understand that Roslin doesn't have the benefit of treatment and surgery due to the circumstances, but this could have played out a lot longer without what he feared of her being invalid. But consequently, because cancer is not a virus but a deformation inherent to the individual, I can definitely see complications later on as a result of the cylon blood. Additionally, another issue I have is how they make Baltar to be a "General" Scientist when it was obvious that he was a computer scientist who wrote highly elaborate computer programs. Now they have him curing cancer. --[[User:straycat0|straycat0]] 10:46, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::: I don't have so much of a problem with Baltar knowing so much about science. It's true that it would lean somewhat towards a reviled science-fiction stereotype for him to be able to solve a problem about anything, but it's been established since very early on in the first season that Baltar is the resident Cylon expert, and this episode is simply a continuation of that role. He may have written computer programs too, but lots of scientists I know are adept at many forms of science--besides, it's all sort of interconnected. We also don't really see him talking much about physics (except that comment about enthalpy when blowing up the tylium refinery in "Hand of God," but every biochemist worth his salt would probably understand enthalpy anyway), so he seems confined to bio. And so long as he's not reconfiguring the plasma manifolds to increase the range of the FTL jumps or anything like that, I'll be okay. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 15:23, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Well, he's had six months to brush up on his cylon biology. I seriously doubt anyone's been needing him to write computer programs lately. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:36, 22 January 2006 (EST)

When Roslin wakes up after being injected with the Cylon blood, she points to Baltar and mumbles something. What did she say? Was it "You're the father."? I didn't quite catch it, because my neighbours decided to test their new sound system with "The Ace of Spades" at that exact moment! (May they rot in hell!) --Axminster 23 January 2006

:I wondered about that myself, so when it replayed again later that night, I muted it and let the closed caption run. All she said was "Dr. Baltar?". It could be wrong, though. --Jasonbondshow 25 January 2006

==Starbuck's Viper==
Can anyone get a look at the tail number on Starbuck's viper in the opening? It looks like 8757 to me, but it could also be the previously identified [[Viper 8737]]. She identifies herself with the three digit number 049. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:32, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:I'll check, I need to get back to my Viper Cataloguing project. First, though, I need to go through all the edits made while I couldn't access the page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:58, 21 January 2006 (EST)

==And By the Way==
I know this isn't really a discussion forum, but am I the only one who thought that this episode ''really sucked''? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:45, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:I haven't watched it yet; have it on tape. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:20, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:Thanks mostly to Roslin's miracle cure, but also to Helo and Tyrol back to work without even a whisper of a lesser charge/punishment against them, plus the sudden jump to six months after the Attack, I agree with you, Peter Farago. The only time I ever voted 2/10 on the offical website bulletin board. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 18:35, 21 January 2006 (EST).

:It certainly had some bad ''plot'' points, all of which have been stated. And I still think it would have been possible to do a cure without making it so contrived--of course it had to happen, but I don't know if it should have been the centerpiece of an episode, or at the very least needed to be resolved in the last five minutes of one. But the stuff with Baltar running around on Cloud 9 and drawing cell diagrams in his crazy notepad was pretty cool, and I loved the bit with Adar in Roslin's flashbacks. Besides, the episode was well written overall, especially the scene with Helo and Adama in the hallway. Does this excuse bad plot points that fly in the face of continuity and practically insult our intelligence? Certainly not. But I don't know if it ''sucked''. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 20:07, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:''THANK YOU!'' Somebody finally said it. Yes, Peter. This was bad. A big part of BG's allure is it's deft sidestepping of expected plot devices and its commitment to fashion realistic situations. This thing (Uatu shakes his head) was drenched in deus et machina. I, for one, don't believe Roslin should have been cured -- ''ever''. I like the character but I liked my real life friend who died also. I'm also getting a little tired of the Colonials winning so many battles against a supposedly superior enemy. It's high time, in my opinion, for the fleet to get one good, solid a** kicking. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 22:48, 21 January 2006 (EST)

: I think there was a lot of hooplah over this episode, mainly because people claimed we would get to meet the person Six was talking to after Baltar left. However, yes, this episode was a downer. It wasn't a bad 45 minutes of television -- in comparison to wha t is out there in the cesspool of American television -- but it wasn't the best. Actually, I think much of the Cylon peace group plot line just happened far too quickly for my taste. Also, why was Sharon stupid enough to smash her head into the glass in her cell? (Also, what is the idea of putting glass inside the cell and putting the bars on the side of the observation corridor? Gee, must be a Jammer design...) Hopefully we don't see the like of ''Epiphanies'' again... Battlestar is just too good to go down to that level. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I had to go one step further and detail ''why'' the show sucked in the Analysis section. Do add anything else you saw as well. The Helo/Tyrol punishment didn't bother me (else, Tigh would be in irons, too ([[Resistance]])). Things were wrapped up far too quickly. And there's NO WAY that Gina can hide on that ship or be supported like that. At least, I can hardly believe it. And here she was with glasses on. For what? So her "secret identity" would be hidden? Gods...and since I was late to see it aired, I actually ''bought'' this one from iTunes. Oh, well. As Joe, said, the worst of "Battlestar" is better than other show's supposed best. Still, to take a joke from Emo Phillips: If we watched this episode while flying on an airliner, we would have to open a window to equalize the suckage. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:21, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:LOL! Oh the pain! --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:17, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Guys, other than the six months issue (which actually ''started'' in Resurrection Ship, Part I), From what I've heard this isn't all that bad. Good points though Farago. I'm going to see the episode monday night when it reruns, I'd just like to point out that '''I am a genetics major''', and I'm going to pause on all of Baltar's notes to do a full write up of what exactly he's talking about, whether it's feasible/coherent with current works, etc. etc. More to follow. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:03, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::I only caught acts II & III of the episode, and yes, it's a pretty incredible "cure". As a Medical Technology graduate, I'm also going to be reviewing how the cylon cells are able to remove the cells so efficiently. I'm also curious after her seizure and stoppage how Laura was able to start back up again (without assistance). Curiouser and curiouser... --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 15:41, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::While admittedly good, none of the above points were mine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:12, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:After the wonderful Resurrection Ship series, it is almost impossible to follow up with equal quality. I think some of the essential premises of this episode were good - militant peace movement, Roslin's rash decisions in the face of death and subsequent resurgence by cylon blood, Baltar being the consummate scientist always doodingly and 'tinkering', Gina finding a hiding place among the peace movement - I think this episode failed more in the execution of these plot premises. Ron Moore sometimes gets too much "Oh, nobody cares about the tech talk. Let's just tell the story" which does make BSG sooo much better than any other scifi, but here he went too far. It is obvious this episode was designed purely to move the story along and pave the way for future episodes, so I enjoyed watching it for that even while I was growning from the inconsistencies. --[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 11:10, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:I enjoyed it, but that could be because I was so happy to have a new episode of BSG on my birthday (1/20 btw). --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 12:21, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:Yeah I agree it wasn't the best episode, but it could have been worse, especially if it was another series trying to do the same thing. Although Ron Moore didn't mention it, do you think the episode was one of those ones made to save on budget due to Ressurrection and later episodes? I just think the episode was trying to cover too much in too little time and so things, in this case being Roslin's cancer, ended up being rushed. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 18:41, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:Oh, and I got to say that one upside neat thing of this episode was the machine shop scene because it was so very...un-scifi and very real-world.[[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 16:25, 23 January 2006 (EST)

==Cancer Therapy==
I've studied some immunology, so I'm just going to talk briefly about this Cylon Blood business.

*There are two ways to attack a cancer cell.
**Chemotherapy, radiation therapy, and nucleoside analogues specifically target cells that are dividing very quickly. This will generally include cancerous growths, but will also target cells that are rapidly dividing by nature, such as hair.
**The body also maintains a set of [[Wikipedia:Cytotoxic T cell|Cytotoxic T cell]]s. These are basically trained to recognize what the antigens of a "normal" body cell looks like, and, if it finds those normal antigens in combination with foreign antigens (either viral or cancerous in nature), signal the cell to commit [[Wikipedia:Apoptosis|Apoptosis]]

*Presumably, the Cylon fetus's blood's lack of "antigens" meant that it could be given to Roslin without inducing [[Wikipedia:Transplant rejection|Transplant rejection]].
**It should be noted that normal, O-type human blood shares this quality (at least as far as red blood cells are concerned).
**Complete lack of antigens on a cell, however, is a biological absurdity.

*Therefore, it seems as though Baltar made two assumptions: That the cylon immune system was more "robust" than a normal human's, and that (based on the lack of antigens) it could be transplanted or donated to Roslin, where the cylon immune cells would root out her disease.
**However, for the reasons above, immune cells which specifically target cancer must be "trained" by exposure to non-cancerous body cells. The Cylon cells would have no knowlege of what Roslin's non-cancerous cells were supposed to look like, so it wouldn't be able to distinguish them from the cancerous ones.
**Alternatively, if it identified cancer cells based on their replication rate, she should suffer side effects comparable to a severe round of chemotherapy or radiation therapy immediately afterwards.

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:55, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Do add your knowledge to the renamed [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] page..it will help my layman's knowledge a lot. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:51, 22 January 2006 (EST)

I have to finish the podcast for Epiphanies. However, RDM states at point point that the finished episode is edited down to just say "the baby's blood", but the scenes they cut clearly explain he's using it's fetal blood STEM CELLS, and then gives a SCIENTIFIC explanation of what this will actually do (I haven't heard the whole thing). However, he thought something like the audience wouldn't understand it, he's afraid of what SOUNDS like technobabble (even when it's entirely accurate; remember how Star Trek: Voyager became obsessed with giving really accurate, but really longwinded science explanations?), and they were running low on time, etc. etc. I hope this info is still "canonical". I need to check on this. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:30, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:He says they contemplated it in the writer's room, but the idea didn't survive to filming. In any case, it still makes just as little sense. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::It's nice to hear that he may have been thinking of a plausable explanation, but we really can only go by what's on screen. We can't be sure something is cannon unless we see it, right? [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 19:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

As to stem cells and cancer and debate:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/12/021216070733.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/03/060301093335.htm

Use of human embrionic stem cells and cancer treatement:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051012084443.htm

Further, breast cancer cells have stem cell like qualities:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/02/030225070441.htm

The above citations indicate that stem cells can be used to treat cancer, and that breast cancer cells exhibit stem cell like qualities.

While real cancer treatments using stem cells are still experimental, and the episode does not fully expound any science (fictional or otherwise) to justify its course of action, there is evidence that the treatments depicted in the screenplay may work.

The science indicates that there are several approaches to using stem cells (either embrionic or adult) as a cancer treatment. For a made up cylon phyisology, one could choose any of the above referenced articles as a possible justification regarding efficacy.

-- pmau

:Just to mention: Yes cancer is like Stem Cells, both are unDifferentiated, and have telomerase and thus can divide indefinately, etc. etc. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:26, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::As I am going back through the episodes, the my main guide was to make them "look" the same. Hence my edit to Roslin's cancer cure. Since it was discussed in the similar detail elsewhere, I just condensed it into a point and linked it. Revert if necessary, even I will probably add back some of the points. However, I feel like continuity errors and goofs, the "meat" of this type of analysis is distracting for the average user, and really hurts the "look" of the article if it is extensive, and best moved elsewhere after a retrospective look at an episode. Just my 2 cubits. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:32, 22 September 2006 (CDT)

==Guest Stars==
I don't remember Hot Dog being in this episode. What did he do? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:20, 24 January 2006 (EST)

*I have a tape so I copied the credits from the episode into the article. It's what they said on screen. I was a little confused, but the way I see it, he's usually in the backround without lines in a lot of episodes, or maybe a minor 20 second scene was cut. Happens all the time. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:36, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== Bomb Use Spoiler ==

Ricimer, could you cite the spoiler source you have in that the bomb does function as a nuclear device and is detonated? I decided to remove your spoiltext since it was unsourced and I could find no mention of the bomb's use on our future episode pages. The magnitude of a nuke blowing up a ship in the Fleet would cause catastrophic damage to many, many ships...although I can see Pegasus meeting its end that way... --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:44, 24 January 2006 (EST)

* It was mentioned at the end of the podcast that the bomb story-line would come to a head in the final two episodes of this season. -- [[User:rexpop|rexpop]] 18:50, 24 January 2006 (EST)

Just a thought on the question of the Nuclear Warhead vs. the Radiological Detection devices. In the Episode "33" the Radiological Alarm isn't raised until the Olympic Carrier starts her suicide run at Galactica. One can infer from this that the Nukes used in the series don't eminate signifigant amounts of radition to set off the alarms until the warhead is actually armed... One should also note that we have never seen Baltar (or anyone else for that matter) wearing any sort of protective clothing for dealing with Radioactive Materials. One would think if the warhead in question where indeed leaking rad's left and right that this precaution would have been taken.
Since it doesn't appear to have been neccessary , its somewhat plausible that the radiation is well shielded until the weapon is armed.
Given the Colonials ability to travel at Faster Than Light Speeds...and use of the material Tillium as fuel...that their "Nukes" are of signifigantly more advanced design than our own current arsenal. We don't really know what the fissial material is...and the one device we have seen is certainly much smaller than conventional Nukes.
just my 2 cents.--Strato
:A)I agree entirely with your reasoning about why they wouldn't be able to detect it because we've seen bombs go undetected before (or at least presumed undetected in "Flesh and Bone"), they could just not be armed yet, and they could be shielded. I've listed all of this off myself at one time or another. B) Actually, we know exactly what their fissionable material is: in "[[Bastille Day]]" they stated that it is [[Plutonium]]. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:23, 30 January 2006 (EST)
::Just to note, there was never a nuke in "Flesh and Bone", which explains why they never found one. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:24, 30 January 2006 (EST)
:::Well my point was, they didn't ''know'' there wasn't one: if they can just flick a switch and scan the ENTIRE Fleet at once, they would have done so and said "nope, no bomb"; instead they were searching for hours. This demonstrates that they don't have a comprehensive, all-encompassing radiation-scan system. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:37, 30 January 2006 (EST)
:Strato, I see where you're coming from, but I think if you'll stop to think about how a nuclear device is constructed, and how a geiger counter works, you'll see that it makes no sense - "arming" a nuke wouldn't change its radiation profile in any way, since the fissile material (uraniun or plutonium) and the fusion trigger (tritium, if present) are constantly emitting radiation in a passive manner. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:24, 30 January 2006 (EST)
Again...I was infering that the design of the weapon itself might allow for more radition leakage once the warhead is armed (say for example, opening up a rad shielded compartment) based on the assuption that the "Nukes" in BSG aren' t designed the same way as most modern nuclear weapons .
This same line of thinking can be applied to the "Radioligical Alarms" in "33" vs conventional Gieiger Counters. We can assume physical laws still apply...but a Civiliatzation that can fold space as casually as the Colonials do has probably come up with some interesting variant solutions to problems than we have at our disposal. A better question to me, instead of asking why the Rad Alarms didn't go off when Jahee leaves with the Nuke (odds are they don't have the devices installed in the landing bay since this isn't a commercial Airport under the U.S. D.O.H.S./TSA)...the better question is, why is it that if Jahee didn't show up with a suitcase, that the Marines escorting him didn't notice or seem to care that he suddenly had a HUGE suitcase upon leaving Galactica? -- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

:I'm sorry, that still makes no sense. The entire purpose of using nukes in the series is that they are something from the real world, and thus, scary — as such, they must obey the laws of the real world from which they are borrowed. BSG is a show which strives for realism, and I am unwilling to make excuses for it by inventing nonsensical "arming" procedures which have no plausible basis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:28, 6 February 2006 (EST)

What about the "Rad Buffers" Chief Tyrol mentions in the Mini-Series? When Commander(now Admiral) Adama sends Starbuck down to the Starboard Flight Pod to prep the Viper MkII's for flight... Starbuck asks Tyrol if "these things will fly" and Tyrol tells her that "The Reactors are still hot, we just need to pull the Rad Buffers" etc. That implies to me that they have the ability to contain radition to some degree. I don't see why if you buy that the Colonials "Radiological Alarms" can pick up free radiation from small missle nuclear warheads like the one that hit the Port Flight Pod in the miniseries THAT Quickly from THAT long a range (never mind any other technical aspect of the show) that suspending ones disbelief in this case should be an issue.-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

OK, getting the warhead off of Galactica and onto Cloud 9 in the first place is one thing, but it gets more absurd yet. One of the fleet's few remaining warheads is, out of necessity, entrusted to the care of a guy whom nobody trusts, he turns around and gives it as a gift to a Cylon broad he wants to frak, and nobody even notices that it's missing until it goes "boom" many months later. Apparently, nobody ever bothers to check, even occassionally, that it's still where it's supposed to be. Isn't this far more ludicrous than the fact that it was smuggled in the first place? [[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 12:55, 25 November 2006 (CST)

== Roslin as a Cylon ==

Gmusser wrote:
:''True, it wasn't precisely the same scene, but nonetheless it was very close in time and location. We need to consider that Roslin was the person whom Six met in the miniseries and add her to the list of [[Humano-Cylon]] Speculated Infiltrators.''

I'm not even sure how to respond to this, other than by noting that I find this line of speculation completely absurd. Many things in the universe are possible, but not all of them deserve a line on the episode guide. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:19, 28 January 2006 (EST)

:Agreed. Anyone in a population of billions could have been meeting with Six, and this guy just jumps to saying "we have to face the real possibility that it was Roslin"?? Shot in the dark. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:29, 28 January 2006 (EST)

It wasn't Rosalin. Were she a Humano-Cylon she wouldn't have had breast cancer in the first place.-- [[User:Stratohead|Stratohead]]

== Cylon blood vs. human blood ==

If Cylon blood is different from human blood in the ways described in this episode, why is it so godsdamned hard to build a reliable Cylon detector?

Talk:Hera Agathon/Archive 1

2006-11-25T22:26:30Z

Capedia: "Caprica" Valerii?

Talk:A Measure of Salvation/Archive 1

2006-11-25T22:10:07Z

Capedia: /* Some Poor Writing */

Talk:A Measure of Salvation/Archive 1

2006-11-25T22:04:20Z

Capedia: /* Some Poor Writing */

==Picture?==
Is that picture from A Measure of Salvation? I don't remember Three and Six projecting themselves into a forest. The outfits they are wearing look like what they wore while torturing Baltar, so maybe it's from a deleted scene. Unless I've forgotten the scene for some reason, shouldn't we get a picture that actually came from the episode? -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Some Poor Writing ==

Attention to detail is what has set BSG apart from so many other science-fiction shows - including Mr. Moore's Star Trek franchises. So I was very disappointed last night to see the sloppy errors piling up deep. I'd have to see the epsiode again to list them all, but mainly them problems concerned the virus.

The scene where potentially infected Galactica crew are "quarantined", together with Sharon, in a room with cold-storage plastic flaps was ridiculous.

It's preposterous to think that a cylon would casually betray his race for the anti-viral drug. He has no assurance that he won't be double-crossed, and he certainly - even after torture - wouldn't spell out the danger the virus poses to the cylon fleet. The audience isn't stupid and neither should the Galctica crew be. Seeing Lee with a dim little lightbulb over his head was just insulting to us all.

Past episodes have cleary shown that cylon ressurection occurs over significant distances, (greater than FTL jumps), and that calls into question the fundemental logistics of Adama's infection plan.

There would be no reason to jump Galactica itself, just sending one raptor with a cylon transponder and one infected cylon would have done the trick. (Nevermind the ease with which two cylon raiders almost instantly materialize into a whole cylon fleet with a resurrectionship conveniently in tow.)

The analysis on the episode summary page provides an excellent plot device allowing the raid to "succeed" thus justifying the major build-up of the two part story. In fact, it would have made a superb three part arc.

Hypothetical episode 3: Spend some realistic period of time finding a reasonably sized cylon fleet, infect them, virus begins spreading throughout area covered by the "local" resurrection ship. Cylons scramble to head off disease, Baltar gains points by developing Hera vaccine, cylons survive but with major "body-blow" giving Galactica and fleet some breathing room as they prepare to investigate the new lead to Earth.

Please don't get me wrong, I love this show, but sci-fi writing has always been done on the cheap and it make my eyes roll as I struggle to care about characters forced through non-sensical plot contortions. Please, Mr. Moore, DON'T LET BSG SINK TO THE SAME SAD FATE! I'm trusting that this was just a hiccup not a trend.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 13:08, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:In defense of the writers, I think you are wrong on two points:
:*Jumping Galactica makes sense. In [[Scar]] Cylon Raiders are engaging in skirmishes despite the absence of a resurrection ship. A Raptor is not a big enough threat to guarantee the presence of a resurrection ship. If one isn't in range by accident the Cylons would probably engage the Raptor without it and take a minor risk of permanently loosing a few raiders. And after [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]] the Cylons could be exspected to take a closer look to any unexpected Raptors with a Cylon transponder showing up. If they destroy it without a resurrection ship in range, the plans failed. Also Racetrack stated last episode that there is a shortage of Raptors in the fleet, noone is going to be eager to sacrifice one. Jumping Galactica ensures the Cylon require lots of forces, expect lot's of casualties and have a resurrection ship nearby, though I could have done without seeing it arrive on the battlefield, that's bad and inconsistent strategy, just to make sure the audience knows that it is in range.

:*There is probably a greater timespan between arrival of the patrol and that of the strikeforce then shown onscreen. Helo manipulates the oxygen-system after the jump, nevertheless the prisoners are already dead by the time the resurrection ship appears, indicating a least a few minutes have passed. The process can be seen in [[Flight of the Phoenix]] in the firing range scene (it's likely that Helo manipulated the same system).

:Two more plotholes I noticed: How do the Colonials know the Cylon supply lines? And given that they know Athena is immune because she's given birth to a hybrid child, they should wonder if there a more human-cylon hybrids. Even without knowing that Hera is still alive, if the massive Cylon effort to create hybrids resulted in creating at least one more hybrid the cylons would take a blow, but would not be exstinct. By the way it would be nice if we would hear something about these efforts. When Hera is shown for the first time in Cylon hands would be a good opportunity to close that chapter with a throwaway line that all these efforts were fruitless and stopped. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 11:24, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: That's an interesting question -- one that I had myself, actually. Even if the effort didn't destroy the Cylon race (and I think that goal is overly optimistic), the virus would have given a serious blow to the Cylons, which would only serve to give the survivors more breathing room -- not to metion the increase in general morale, which the survivors seriously need after the farce at New Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

I would have to agree the writing is poor. The series seems to be drifting from its roots and moving into the Hollywood PC political statement world. This season has already thrown in suicide bombing and implied it was acceptable, now there is a drift into making political statements about biological weapons (even though nuclear weapons have been freely used in the past.) It seems the writers are abandoning their science fiction roots and reaching to make their own personal social or political commentary. I do hope they get back to what I considered truly exceptional science fiction and stop these editorials.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 00:06, 12 November 2006 (CST)

Followup: According to and article on the Gateworld site ([http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/10/season_three_ratings_slip_from_premiere.shtml]) the ratings have been slipping. As much as I truly love this show, I know my wife and I were both rather disgusted with the previous inclusion of the suicide bombers and now the “loss of humanity” references associated with the potential use of biological weapons. I have also heard complaints from two of our friends. I’m concerned that if this direction is continued it will not only ruin the show, it will also drive away viewers resulting in cancelation. As a long time science fiction fan (I even remember watching the original showings of Lost in Space and the first Star Trek) this has been my all time favorite show up until now. I would hate to see it have an early demise. As I mentioned above, I hope the writers can return to science fiction and entertainment.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 16:13, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: Ratings have been slipping for ''SG-1'' and ''Atlantis'' as well; neither have the strong allegories to today's world, or the world of yesteryear for that matter. So I don't fully buy that there's a direct correlation between the creative direction BSG is going and the loss in viewership. Actually, one could probably argue (more successfully in my informed opinion) that the loss of ratings has more to do with Sci-Fi's scheduling decisions of breaking up the "Three Amigos" (''Stargate SG-1'', ''Stargate Atlantis'' and ''Battlestar Galactica''). As for the "loss of humanity" and suicide bombing themes, these have existed since the miniseries (Number Five's suicide bombing attempt in "[[Litmus]]" and Adama's speech in the miniseries and platitudes since then). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::: In my very informed opinion, I would have to disagree on several points. While time slots and lineup can affect ratings, this usually is reflected in those of the shows with the weaker individual draw. Galactica is a cornerstone show which should draw up the ratings for those around it rather than have such a slump from a lineup change.

::: As for the previous Friday lineup, SG-1 ratings have steadily declined since the departure of Richard Dean Anderson. His departure also seemed to coincide with decline in the quality of the writing, though I’m not convinced the two were related rather than just coincidental. I have always believed the SG Atlantis was the weak link in that lineup and was carried by its position between SG-1 and BSG. As mentioned in the article I referenced above, Dr. Who, which leads into BSG, has had poor ratings this season. I believe the replacement of the very likable actor playing the title role, though consistent with the original BBC series, was a detriment to this series. In addition, this season’s writing has seemed less creative and entertaining. I greatly enjoyed their first season, but have found the current one to be rather dull and uninteresting. This certainly doesn’t help with the Galactica ratings, but I don’t believe it is the major factor in the decline.

::: The introduction of controversial topics into plot lines is often risky, particularly with science fiction which is typically considered pure escapism, even when it has a dark element like BSG (i.e.: The potential extermination of the human race and the continued threat from the Cylon.) Generally, Sci-Fi fans want to escape the real world and be entertained, not lectured on the writers’ political or social views of modern events. While any controversial topic is a risk, the introduction of those that are currently so polarizing is almost a guarantee of distancing a significant portion of your fan base.

::: You associated the bombing executed by a Cylon against those carried out by human suicide bombers. The two aren’t even remotely comparable. The first was not executed by a human, was not condoned by the humans, and was executed by an individual who (as already had been established) would be reborn (“downloaded”) into a new body, but as the same individual. The later was not only condoned by members of the upper human leadership, it was presented as a reasonable and acceptable approach in a given situation – a strong statement considering current world events. (As someone who’s nephew’s squad was attacked by the first suicide bomber in the gulf war, killing many of his squad just a few yards in front of him, I will freely admit to strong personal feelings in this matter. None the less, such controversial plot elements are invariably going to strongly offend a significant number of viewers.) The inference that the humans must limit their use of weapons against an enemy bent on the genocide of humanity is another PC component. Biological weapons as a plot element would have been better completely left out rather than used as a mechanism for additional political commentary. Remember, people watch for entertainment, not a reminder of current events or a thinly disguised lecture from Hollywood writers on their political and social opinions.

::: It is also rather telling that the ratings dropped rather significantly after the season 3 premiere (where suicide bombings by humans were introduced and condoned.) I’ll be interested in seeing how the ratings are affected after this latest one sided (read: “PC”) foray into contemporary controversial issues.

::: --[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 20:40, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::::I doubt that the suicide bombings in Occupation and Precipice were "condoned" by the show. Roslin didn't like them. Tigh, who planned them, thought they were bad. Even Baltar (who's been developing a conscience this season, thank the Gods) didn't like them. The first was a waste of life and counterproductive, causing a massive Cylon freakout that would have killed off Roslin, Zarek, Cally and a bunch of other people if the resistance hadn't saved them in the last minute. The second took down the power grid, which was more helpful, but it should be noted that in this case the bomber didn't kill any civilians, just herself and some Cylons. Tigh is still suffering because of the choices he made on New Caprica, and it doesn't look like he's coming out of those moral woods anytime soon.

::::Furthermore, I don't think the show has condemned the use of the Cylon virus, either. Roslin was all about it, after all, and I don't think there's anything less PC than a schoolteacher with a Messiah complex jonesing for some genocide. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 22:33, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:::: The use of nuclear weapons are logical in a space setting where great distances are involved and ships are heavily armoured. I would suspect, though, that a Presidential order would have been required to use nukes on the surface of a populated planet. The use of bio-weapons would probably have similiar restrictions because of their nature. I disagree that this show was PC. The weapon that the humans stumbled upon had a unique ability to wipe out the entire race of cyclons. To use it does carry far more ethical problems than simply using a nuke on a basestar. To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 09:39, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:::::''To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet''--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]]

:::::I think that's a poor analogy, since the Japanese were not a threat to kill every American person on the planet, which is what the Cylons are a threat to do (notwithstanding Helo's odious observation that "they tried to live with us on New Caprica"). The humans and Cylons are in a war of absolute total commitment, and it's difficult to imagine how the war can end until one side or the other ceases to exist. In that scenario, you probably have to choose the other side to be the one that ceases to exist.

:::::On the other hand, one might argue that the numbers involved are so staggering that, even to a human, the lives of billions of Cylons must be valued over the lives of forty-some thousand humans. This argument of course assumes that Cylons are "alive" in the same sense as people and are not merely machines. (They certainly ''act'' like they're alive, but...) It also ignores the question of whether there is an Earth with a population of billions of humans who need the colonial fleet to survive and give them a heads-up if ''they'' are to have a fighting chance to survive a Cylon attack.

:::::[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 16:04, 25 November 2006 (CST)

:::I think the show has been attacking issues that are important in our modern world since the beginning. Basic issues like balance of power, whether civilian government should stay in power during a massive crisis and war, religion in general, how to treat thouse different from yourselves (the show has been very ambivalent about killing Cylons, even though they are "just robots"), Baltar's initial refusal to believe in the gods or a god. It has even tackled thitngs like terrorism as a means to an end (Zarek was introduced at the beginning of the first season), abortion, infanticide, torture, treatment of prisoners. In all, it has been very current and politically involved since the beginning. However, with the first 4 episodes of season 3, it took a decidedly controversial and risky turn by depicting our favorite valiant and noble heros under brutal occupation. The writers have guts, and their ratings may have suffered, but they are doing the same thing they've been doing since the beginning of the show. It's just now a lot of poeple who watch TV don't agree with the particular direction the show took. However, even then, it left the viewer to choose for him or herself what to think, it was again ambivalent, which may be what makes it the best show on TV. No, the show will not supply you with easy answers and moral certitude to very important current questions. But that's a good thing, not a bad thing. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 15:49, 13 November 2006 (EST)

::::I have to agree that it's been dealing with controversial issues from the start. One thing I've learned about BsG from watching it is that every time you think there's a line they won't cross, they seem to cross it. I think Yaneh has it right. Now, with them back in space, I do think it might turn more towards classic sci-fi, but I do agree this is not an unprecedented pattern. As for the writing on this particular episode, I think there were some odd references or slip-ups, which to my mind were made for the sole purpose of bailing Galactica out of the responsibility for a genocide. But I'm not going to judge the whole show at this point--it's WAY too early for that. I'm even more of a music buff than a TV buff, and I don't write off a band until there are 3 stinkers in a row. Let's wait and see if this a pattern before we write BsG off. --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

My additional $.02 - I'm going to have to disagree with my esteemed colleague from across the aisle, GeorgeW. I have no complaint with the political/moral questions that the writers have chosen to tackle this season. I do not believe that sci-fi was ever supposed to be purely escapist. Think of Frank Herbert's Dune which was essentially a political novel in sci-fi clothing. And the reason it is still regarded as one of the greatest sci-fi novels ever written was '''attention to detail!'''

What's made BSG so engaging has been its willingness to tackle the dark and gritty sides of a sci-fi story and thus make it far more real. This season's espisodes especially, have dug into tough questions about the justification of actions taken by a society being oppressed and even threatened with extinction - and kudos to Mr. Moore and Co. for going there! While they chose Nazi-esque imagery to illustrate the cylon occupation of New Caprica, the physical and psycological torture depicted there is exactly what Palestinians have been living with every day for decades, and I think it's extraordinary that this show has dared to ask American audiences to speculate how they would react if the same sort of conditions were imposed on us.

Consider Fox's 24, an unabashed advertisement for torture in the name of patriotism - nothing more than fearmongering to stir up a post-911 traumatised public into a state of jackboot-stamping, flag-waving paranoia, willing to hand over their civil liberties to facists. As grim as the first two episodes of this BSG season were, it was refreshing to see some element of pop culture actually asking viewers to stop and think - rather than just telling them what to believe.

If there's been a drop in ratings as a result of this storyline, it's only because so many Americans have let their capacity for critical thought atrophy over the last 40 years. (But just as likely, as was stated above, it was Sci-fi's choice to break up its powerhouse Friday night schedule. Frankly, canning Atlantis and popping the new Doctor Who episodes into the vacant slot would have been the prefered alternative.)

So back to my original point. With a wink and a nod to technobabble - the show's about homicidal robots for gosh sake - can we please just pay attention to the logical details. It's science-fiction, and we, the viewers, have already given the writers our willing suspension of disbelief. I'm just asking not to be abused with rediculous and downright stupid plot loopholes and gaffes in return for the privilege. I'm not writing off BSG either. Yet. But this last episode, which held such promise for having raised the stakes to the level of genocide, fell utterly flat - tripped up by the banana peels of sloppy writing.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 16:54, 14 November 2006 (CST)

In response to the original poster, I agree with you. This is not one of the show's shining moments.

--[[User:Crazyrabbits|Crazyrabbits]] 10:00, 15 November 2006 (CST)

== Explanations ==

A note about the Resurection ship jumping into the battle... it would seem that this is actually a good tactical move from the Cylon perspective. After Pegasus and Galactica easily destroyed the first resurrection ship and it's escorts, it would be prudent for the Cylons to keep the new ship with their fleet... even if this means taking it into battle with them. From their point of view it might look as if Galactica was trying to sucker the baseships away from the resurrection ship so the colonials could attack it. They've already used the "sucker" strategy a number of times, we could just be seeing a Cylon reaction to that strategy. Bringing the ship with them would negate such a threat as several basestars (more than enough to hold galactica off) would be able to cover for it.

As far as supply lines, it would figure that Galactica would know about this. Basic military strategy is to harass or at least keep an eye on enemy supply lines.

Also a note about the raptors and their missiles. The colonials may have found, after the battle over new caprica, that the missile attachments for the raptors were effective and could be adapted for other (combat) uses as well. It would also figure that after the loss of Pegasus, the colonials would be trying everything they could to increase firepower. This is probably just a jury-rig solution for increasing galactica's firepower.

: And all this has yet to be supported on screen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:45, 13 November 2006 (CST)

::In [[The Captain's Hand]] Admiral Adama orders a recon of 5 Raptors, 2 of them SAR and 3 Escort. Though never seen onscreen heavily armed Raptors must have been around for some time. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:57, 13 November 2006 (CST)

: It is also distinctly possible that the weapon pods were not available until the arrival of the Pegasus. The cache at Ragnar Anchorage was likely primarily the weapons themselves, and not a supply of launchers or similar hardware. Since Galactica was slated for retirement and Pegasus was fully operational it is very likely the later ship was much better equipped with combat military hardware.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 22:30, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== About Gaeta ==
Looking at the question here:

: Why is Gaeta so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D'Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?

Er, well, the last time Gaeta saw Baltar, he gave him a gun and told him his last chance at redemption was to stop Three from setting off the nuke. Given that the nuke didn't go off, it isn't unreasonable to believe Baltar was successful, and that in succeeding he would have either died or been stranded on New Caprica. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 02:50, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:Gaeta knew that he was chummy with the Cylons. For him to convince them not to detonate the nuke (not hard, given that it would be at best a symbolic gesture) and still make it off the planet alive is well within the realm of possibility. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==A quick battle==

I was just wondering but is the skirmish with Galactica and the Basestars going to be added into the Second Cylon War or not? Sure it was short but it still had combat and casualties so it should be added to the list. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:54, 13 November 2006 (CST)
: Sure, I don't see why not. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:10, 13 November 2006 (CST)

Should it be known as a battle or more of a skirmish? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:21, 22 November 2006 (CST)

==Baltar's Torture==

This is just pure speculation for speculation's sake, but I can't help thinking something more than Three being "touched" by Baltar's insane screaming of "don't stop..." "I believe in you" and "I love you with all my heart" (with internal Six's coaching) is going on in this scene. Three's indiference at the onset of her torturing, and her musing over which torture tool she should use doesnt seem like it could be changed or swayed by anything Baltar would say. i would say that judging from the torture tools they have, and their experiences on New Caprica at extracting information on detainees they know a little about torturing, it doesn't seem that Baltar saying anything he could to stop the torture would be unexpected. This leads me to wonder about exactly what he did say with the help of internal Six. perhaps those phrases, or the way he said it struck something in Three that only Cylons are aware of...maybe it means something that neither the Viewer or Baltar is aware of...I just find it hard to believe that Three, fully prepared for torture, even having fun picking what instrument to use...could be so easily moved from some snivelling bleating human saying he loves her with all his heart...Did Six give Baltar these phrases to say because she knew they'd strike a cord in a fellow Cylon, Three's reaction was quite a reaction, and then touching his lips like she couldn't believe those words came out of his mouth.....I don't know...just speculating.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:23, 14 November 2006 (CST)

--I wonder if the incongruity of those phrases to the situation of being tortured made Three wonder if Baltar was projecting. Now, if they've tortured other humans, they've probably seen people break with reality and shut down before, but perhaps that's a reaction beyond anything they've ever seen before. More like a Cylon being tortured? Is that what their instinct is, if they're in the same situation as Baltar? --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

==Note about the virus is incorrect==

The note:

Dr. Cottle identifies the disease as Lymphocytic encephalitis, however encephalitis is a condition (swelling of the brain) that can be caused by a pathogen, not a pathogen itself. More likely the pathogen is Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus.

When a doctor identifies a disease, he normally states the name of the disease, not the name of the virus. The note itself states that Doc Cottle identifies the "disease," not the pathogen. I think the note needs to be modified or deleted. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 20:58, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== Accessing the "Hybrid?" ==

Is that what Athena is doing? Do we know that? It just sounds odd when phrased that way. [[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 02:56, 14 November 2006 (CST)

== The antibody degradative debate? ==

Ok, the latest addition to this point is the most scientifically accurate (antibodies do not have degradative functionality)! Read the wiki articles yourself to confirm and help you understand. On a more serious note if contributors (chiefly the second one on this topic) feel that an explanation or analysis point is incorrect or poorly explained than they need to do their homework before they dispute it and make up their own science. I know its only a fan wiki on battlestar but lets not plague our site with scientific inconsistencies like in 'A measure of Salvation' (Their science advisor must of been on holiday when this was written), after all we have luxury of being able to correct ourselves in hindsight ;) [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 18:10, 15 November 2006 (CST)

:Sorry, but antibodies *do* have degradative capability, it has been known for at least 4 years now. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/298/5601/2195

::Alright, this is getting silly now. This article is talking about the antibody catalysed generation of peroxide and an ozone analogue, referring to the apparent toxicity of these products to bacterial species - no mention of RNA degradation (or any other kind of degradation for that matter) here, mate!. Im super sorry, but AB's **don't** have degradative functionality! [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 15:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:After spending over 25 years working in the clincial field (including being a lab director and now consultant), much of it involving research in imunology, immunohematology, genetics, and similar areas, I believe I know a bit more than what's presented in a few overly simplistic paragraphs in some an abbreviated article. I've dealt with far to many on the internet like yourself who reads a few sentences and brands themselves an expert. I came to this site because I believed it would be an enjoyable place to talk about my favorite show, but apparently this is just another one flled with those who prefer to hide behind their monitors and make snide comments. I'm not here to get into this type of garbage, so that's it, I'm done and out of here.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 01:07, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::There will always be people that claim to know all and others that really do belive that they know the right answer. The solution is just to provide loads of sourced for what you say. I dont know of your technical background but it would be very beneficial for all if you stayed and we can work this bit out. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:02, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::I'm sorry you feel that way, and I do have a solution to the above issue. It's a really simple solution, so here goes: all the science information needs to be sourced. I'm not talking about using links to Wikipedia (which we shouldn't really be sourcing from anyway), but I'm talking about adding sources from scientific journals and the like. References that GeorgeW should have access to, if I'm correct on that. Otherwise, I'm inclined to yank the entire thing since it isn't sourced at all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:41, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::: I have cited an excellent reference on this topic in the article, a text that was very useful to me in my first undergrad year. It would be rather difficult to cite an appropriate journal (even a review) because the topic is very basic. In addition very few people would have access to any article cited without paying or having a subscription (personal or institutional), though most major libraries are bound to stock this text. My inclusion of Wiki articles as references were due to the fact that they provide a sound and simplistic (extremely accurate, believe it or not!) explanation of the relevant topics, as I assume most people reading these articles don't have a degree in a biological science. As for George W. Bush's 25 years of clinical experience (hmm?), I'd like to know if he's willing to dispute a scientific textbook! [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 17:51, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::::Regardless of who is right or wrong (I'm NOT taking sides here), there shouldn't be debate in the analysis section. Currently it reads like:
::::A
:::::NOT (A)
::::::NOT (NOT (A))
::::Which is NOT (Encycopledic) to read. Pull out your sources, measure them (weigh them, whatever), and the winner takes all (and gets a quick blurb about A (or NOT (A)) in the "Analysis" section). Also, when citing your sources you may want to make use of the [[:Category:Citation templates|citation templates]] when citing books, journal articles, etc. That's what makes the cool little footnotes that show up in the "References" section. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:06, 16 November 2006 (CST)

== sickbay ship ==

William Adama says in the final scene:

:''Cottle's report from the virus: He thinks that it was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon '''we''' abandoned on '''the sickbay ship'''.''

*What is ''the sickbay ship''? When did this happen?
*Who does ''we'' refer to in this statement if Adama and Laura seem to believe that the beacon was left there as a ''signpost to earth''?

--[[User:Pix|Pix]] 01:35, 17 November 2006 (CST)

:From Sadgeezer's transcript:
:'''Adama, standing''': Cottle's report on the virus. He thinks that it was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon we abandoned on the sick baseship.

:'''Roslin''': Somebody sneezed, maybe.

:SO to the first, I think it was sick baseship, not sickbay ship. And the we refers to the Fleet collectively, but specifically to themselves (being the decisionmakers that decided to leave it onboard the baseship rather than bring it aboard and risk contamination). It sounds like they maybe wish they'd have picked it up now, but at least they're on the right track.
:If you check out the [[Podcast:A Measure of Salvation|podcast transcript]], you'll hear/see that actually as originally scripted they did pick up the beacon, and were going to chuck it through space at the Cylons, but the writers/producers decided that was lame and chose to leave it on the destroyed ship rather than have to deal with getting rid of it in a subsequent episode. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 17 November 2006 (CST)

::Haha, I can't believe that Adama's strange speaking rhythm in that scene completely threw me off. The interpretation, ''sick baseship'' had never entered my mind, despite making considerably more sense. --[[User:Pix|Pix]] 19:42, 17 November 2006 (CST)

== Battle Article ==
Does the little skirmish deserve a "Battle of NCD2539" article? --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 17:57, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:Sure. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:49, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Virus "Discussion" ==
Wouldn't the majority of this "discussion" fit in the [[Life sciences in the Re-imagined Series
]] article? Would make the episode article much neater. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:10, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:Why is it beyond everyone to just admit that the medical technobabble was complete BS? There's no profit to be found in coming up with excuses for it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:24, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== I don't get it. ==

Can somebody explain the premise of this episode? How does this virus threaten to become a genocidal pandemic?

There was some technobabble that I didn't quite understand (perhaps somebody can elucidate) about how an infected Cyclon who dies would somehow download the contagion along with its memories.

Accepting that the infected Cylon remains infected after resurrection, how would the contagion spread from there? Presumably the first words out of the mouth of the Cylon after resurrection would be "I'M INFECTED!!!" and the resurrection ship would quarantine itself, or simply destroy itself. Even if the carrier Cylon were unable to communicate its status, the Cylons still know about the existence of the threat (which is why the infected basestar was left marooned), and are presumably intelligent enough not to let anything leave a resurrection ship without first being checked and cleared.

I've watched the episode twice now, and I still have no idea how this virus was supposed to threaten the entire Cylon race. Can somebody explain it so that this idiot (me) can understand?

On an unrelated note, Hera, who cured Roslin's cancer in an earlier episode and has now rendered Athena immune to the Cylon plague, is starting to remind me of the magical crossbreed from [[Wikipedia:V (The Final Battle)|V: The Final Battle]]. When you're cribbing from "V," you're really scraping the bottom of the sci-fi barrel.

[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 15:17, 25 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:A Measure of Salvation/Archive 1

2006-11-25T21:17:42Z

Capedia: I don't get it.

==Picture?==
Is that picture from A Measure of Salvation? I don't remember Three and Six projecting themselves into a forest. The outfits they are wearing look like what they wore while torturing Baltar, so maybe it's from a deleted scene. Unless I've forgotten the scene for some reason, shouldn't we get a picture that actually came from the episode? -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Some Poor Writing ==

Attention to detail is what has set BSG apart from so many other science-fiction shows - including Mr. Moore's Star Trek franchises. So I was very disappointed last night to see the sloppy errors piling up deep. I'd have to see the epsiode again to list them all, but mainly them problems concerned the virus.

The scene where potentially infected Galactica crew are "quarantined", together with Sharon, in a room with cold-storage plastic flaps was ridiculous.

It's preposterous to think that a cylon would casually betray his race for the anti-viral drug. He has no assurance that he won't be double-crossed, and he certainly - even after torture - wouldn't spell out the danger the virus poses to the cylon fleet. The audience isn't stupid and neither should the Galctica crew be. Seeing Lee with a dim little lightbulb over his head was just insulting to us all.

Past episodes have cleary shown that cylon ressurection occurs over significant distances, (greater than FTL jumps), and that calls into question the fundemental logistics of Adama's infection plan.

There would be no reason to jump Galactica itself, just sending one raptor with a cylon transponder and one infected cylon would have done the trick. (Nevermind the ease with which two cylon raiders almost instantly materialize into a whole cylon fleet with a resurrectionship conveniently in tow.)

The analysis on the episode summary page provides an excellent plot device allowing the raid to "succeed" thus justifying the major build-up of the two part story. In fact, it would have made a superb three part arc.

Hypothetical episode 3: Spend some realistic period of time finding a reasonably sized cylon fleet, infect them, virus begins spreading throughout area covered by the "local" resurrection ship. Cylons scramble to head off disease, Baltar gains points by developing Hera vaccine, cylons survive but with major "body-blow" giving Galactica and fleet some breathing room as they prepare to investigate the new lead to Earth.

Please don't get me wrong, I love this show, but sci-fi writing has always been done on the cheap and it make my eyes roll as I struggle to care about characters forced through non-sensical plot contortions. Please, Mr. Moore, DON'T LET BSG SINK TO THE SAME SAD FATE! I'm trusting that this was just a hiccup not a trend.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 13:08, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:In defense of the writers, I think you are wrong on two points:
:*Jumping Galactica makes sense. In [[Scar]] Cylon Raiders are engaging in skirmishes despite the absence of a resurrection ship. A Raptor is not a big enough threat to guarantee the presence of a resurrection ship. If one isn't in range by accident the Cylons would probably engage the Raptor without it and take a minor risk of permanently loosing a few raiders. And after [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]] the Cylons could be exspected to take a closer look to any unexpected Raptors with a Cylon transponder showing up. If they destroy it without a resurrection ship in range, the plans failed. Also Racetrack stated last episode that there is a shortage of Raptors in the fleet, noone is going to be eager to sacrifice one. Jumping Galactica ensures the Cylon require lots of forces, expect lot's of casualties and have a resurrection ship nearby, though I could have done without seeing it arrive on the battlefield, that's bad and inconsistent strategy, just to make sure the audience knows that it is in range.

:*There is probably a greater timespan between arrival of the patrol and that of the strikeforce then shown onscreen. Helo manipulates the oxygen-system after the jump, nevertheless the prisoners are already dead by the time the resurrection ship appears, indicating a least a few minutes have passed. The process can be seen in [[Flight of the Phoenix]] in the firing range scene (it's likely that Helo manipulated the same system).

:Two more plotholes I noticed: How do the Colonials know the Cylon supply lines? And given that they know Athena is immune because she's given birth to a hybrid child, they should wonder if there a more human-cylon hybrids. Even without knowing that Hera is still alive, if the massive Cylon effort to create hybrids resulted in creating at least one more hybrid the cylons would take a blow, but would not be exstinct. By the way it would be nice if we would hear something about these efforts. When Hera is shown for the first time in Cylon hands would be a good opportunity to close that chapter with a throwaway line that all these efforts were fruitless and stopped. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 11:24, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: That's an interesting question -- one that I had myself, actually. Even if the effort didn't destroy the Cylon race (and I think that goal is overly optimistic), the virus would have given a serious blow to the Cylons, which would only serve to give the survivors more breathing room -- not to metion the increase in general morale, which the survivors seriously need after the farce at New Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

I would have to agree the writing is poor. The series seems to be drifting from its roots and moving into the Hollywood PC political statement world. This season has already thrown in suicide bombing and implied it was acceptable, now there is a drift into making political statements about biological weapons (even though nuclear weapons have been freely used in the past.) It seems the writers are abandoning their science fiction roots and reaching to make their own personal social or political commentary. I do hope they get back to what I considered truly exceptional science fiction and stop these editorials.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 00:06, 12 November 2006 (CST)

Followup: According to and article on the Gateworld site ([http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/10/season_three_ratings_slip_from_premiere.shtml]) the ratings have been slipping. As much as I truly love this show, I know my wife and I were both rather disgusted with the previous inclusion of the suicide bombers and now the “loss of humanity” references associated with the potential use of biological weapons. I have also heard complaints from two of our friends. I’m concerned that if this direction is continued it will not only ruin the show, it will also drive away viewers resulting in cancelation. As a long time science fiction fan (I even remember watching the original showings of Lost in Space and the first Star Trek) this has been my all time favorite show up until now. I would hate to see it have an early demise. As I mentioned above, I hope the writers can return to science fiction and entertainment.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 16:13, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: Ratings have been slipping for ''SG-1'' and ''Atlantis'' as well; neither have the strong allegories to today's world, or the world of yesteryear for that matter. So I don't fully buy that there's a direct correlation between the creative direction BSG is going and the loss in viewership. Actually, one could probably argue (more successfully in my informed opinion) that the loss of ratings has more to do with Sci-Fi's scheduling decisions of breaking up the "Three Amigos" (''Stargate SG-1'', ''Stargate Atlantis'' and ''Battlestar Galactica''). As for the "loss of humanity" and suicide bombing themes, these have existed since the miniseries (Number Five's suicide bombing attempt in "[[Litmus]]" and Adama's speech in the miniseries and platitudes since then). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::: In my very informed opinion, I would have to disagree on several points. While time slots and lineup can affect ratings, this usually is reflected in those of the shows with the weaker individual draw. Galactica is a cornerstone show which should draw up the ratings for those around it rather than have such a slump from a lineup change.

::: As for the previous Friday lineup, SG-1 ratings have steadily declined since the departure of Richard Dean Anderson. His departure also seemed to coincide with decline in the quality of the writing, though I’m not convinced the two were related rather than just coincidental. I have always believed the SG Atlantis was the weak link in that lineup and was carried by its position between SG-1 and BSG. As mentioned in the article I referenced above, Dr. Who, which leads into BSG, has had poor ratings this season. I believe the replacement of the very likable actor playing the title role, though consistent with the original BBC series, was a detriment to this series. In addition, this season’s writing has seemed less creative and entertaining. I greatly enjoyed their first season, but have found the current one to be rather dull and uninteresting. This certainly doesn’t help with the Galactica ratings, but I don’t believe it is the major factor in the decline.

::: The introduction of controversial topics into plot lines is often risky, particularly with science fiction which is typically considered pure escapism, even when it has a dark element like BSG (i.e.: The potential extermination of the human race and the continued threat from the Cylon.) Generally, Sci-Fi fans want to escape the real world and be entertained, not lectured on the writers’ political or social views of modern events. While any controversial topic is a risk, the introduction of those that are currently so polarizing is almost a guarantee of distancing a significant portion of your fan base.

::: You associated the bombing executed by a Cylon against those carried out by human suicide bombers. The two aren’t even remotely comparable. The first was not executed by a human, was not condoned by the humans, and was executed by an individual who (as already had been established) would be reborn (“downloaded”) into a new body, but as the same individual. The later was not only condoned by members of the upper human leadership, it was presented as a reasonable and acceptable approach in a given situation – a strong statement considering current world events. (As someone who’s nephew’s squad was attacked by the first suicide bomber in the gulf war, killing many of his squad just a few yards in front of him, I will freely admit to strong personal feelings in this matter. None the less, such controversial plot elements are invariably going to strongly offend a significant number of viewers.) The inference that the humans must limit their use of weapons against an enemy bent on the genocide of humanity is another PC component. Biological weapons as a plot element would have been better completely left out rather than used as a mechanism for additional political commentary. Remember, people watch for entertainment, not a reminder of current events or a thinly disguised lecture from Hollywood writers on their political and social opinions.

::: It is also rather telling that the ratings dropped rather significantly after the season 3 premiere (where suicide bombings by humans were introduced and condoned.) I’ll be interested in seeing how the ratings are affected after this latest one sided (read: “PC”) foray into contemporary controversial issues.

::: --[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 20:40, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::::I doubt that the suicide bombings in Occupation and Precipice were "condoned" by the show. Roslin didn't like them. Tigh, who planned them, thought they were bad. Even Baltar (who's been developing a conscience this season, thank the Gods) didn't like them. The first was a waste of life and counterproductive, causing a massive Cylon freakout that would have killed off Roslin, Zarek, Cally and a bunch of other people if the resistance hadn't saved them in the last minute. The second took down the power grid, which was more helpful, but it should be noted that in this case the bomber didn't kill any civilians, just herself and some Cylons. Tigh is still suffering because of the choices he made on New Caprica, and it doesn't look like he's coming out of those moral woods anytime soon.

::::Furthermore, I don't think the show has condemned the use of the Cylon virus, either. Roslin was all about it, after all, and I don't think there's anything less PC than a schoolteacher with a Messiah complex jonesing for some genocide. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 22:33, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:::: The use of nuclear weapons are logical in a space setting where great distances are involved and ships are heavily armoured. I would suspect, though, that a Presidential order would have been required to use nukes on the surface of a populated planet. The use of bio-weapons would probably have similiar restrictions because of their nature. I disagree that this show was PC. The weapon that the humans stumbled upon had a unique ability to wipe out the entire race of cyclons. To use it does carry far more ethical problems than simply using a nuke on a basestar. To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 09:39, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:::I think the show has been attacking issues that are important in our modern world since the beginning. Basic issues like balance of power, whether civilian government should stay in power during a massive crisis and war, religion in general, how to treat thouse different from yourselves (the show has been very ambivalent about killing Cylons, even though they are "just robots"), Baltar's initial refusal to believe in the gods or a god. It has even tackled thitngs like terrorism as a means to an end (Zarek was introduced at the beginning of the first season), abortion, infanticide, torture, treatment of prisoners. In all, it has been very current and politically involved since the beginning. However, with the first 4 episodes of season 3, it took a decidedly controversial and risky turn by depicting our favorite valiant and noble heros under brutal occupation. The writers have guts, and their ratings may have suffered, but they are doing the same thing they've been doing since the beginning of the show. It's just now a lot of poeple who watch TV don't agree with the particular direction the show took. However, even then, it left the viewer to choose for him or herself what to think, it was again ambivalent, which may be what makes it the best show on TV. No, the show will not supply you with easy answers and moral certitude to very important current questions. But that's a good thing, not a bad thing. --[[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 15:49, 13 November 2006 (EST)

::::I have to agree that it's been dealing with controversial issues from the start. One thing I've learned about BsG from watching it is that every time you think there's a line they won't cross, they seem to cross it. I think Yaneh has it right. Now, with them back in space, I do think it might turn more towards classic sci-fi, but I do agree this is not an unprecedented pattern. As for the writing on this particular episode, I think there were some odd references or slip-ups, which to my mind were made for the sole purpose of bailing Galactica out of the responsibility for a genocide. But I'm not going to judge the whole show at this point--it's WAY too early for that. I'm even more of a music buff than a TV buff, and I don't write off a band until there are 3 stinkers in a row. Let's wait and see if this a pattern before we write BsG off. --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

My additional $.02 - I'm going to have to disagree with my esteemed colleague from across the aisle, GeorgeW. I have no complaint with the political/moral questions that the writers have chosen to tackle this season. I do not believe that sci-fi was ever supposed to be purely escapist. Think of Frank Herbert's Dune which was essentially a political novel in sci-fi clothing. And the reason it is still regarded as one of the greatest sci-fi novels ever written was '''attention to detail!'''

What's made BSG so engaging has been its willingness to tackle the dark and gritty sides of a sci-fi story and thus make it far more real. This season's espisodes especially, have dug into tough questions about the justification of actions taken by a society being oppressed and even threatened with extinction - and kudos to Mr. Moore and Co. for going there! While they chose Nazi-esque imagery to illustrate the cylon occupation of New Caprica, the physical and psycological torture depicted there is exactly what Palestinians have been living with every day for decades, and I think it's extraordinary that this show has dared to ask American audiences to speculate how they would react if the same sort of conditions were imposed on us.

Consider Fox's 24, an unabashed advertisement for torture in the name of patriotism - nothing more than fearmongering to stir up a post-911 traumatised public into a state of jackboot-stamping, flag-waving paranoia, willing to hand over their civil liberties to facists. As grim as the first two episodes of this BSG season were, it was refreshing to see some element of pop culture actually asking viewers to stop and think - rather than just telling them what to believe.

If there's been a drop in ratings as a result of this storyline, it's only because so many Americans have let their capacity for critical thought atrophy over the last 40 years. (But just as likely, as was stated above, it was Sci-fi's choice to break up its powerhouse Friday night schedule. Frankly, canning Atlantis and popping the new Doctor Who episodes into the vacant slot would have been the prefered alternative.)

So back to my original point. With a wink and a nod to technobabble - the show's about homicidal robots for gosh sake - can we please just pay attention to the logical details. It's science-fiction, and we, the viewers, have already given the writers our willing suspension of disbelief. I'm just asking not to be abused with rediculous and downright stupid plot loopholes and gaffes in return for the privilege. I'm not writing off BSG either. Yet. But this last episode, which held such promise for having raised the stakes to the level of genocide, fell utterly flat - tripped up by the banana peels of sloppy writing.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 16:54, 14 November 2006 (CST)

In response to the original poster, I agree with you. This is not one of the show's shining moments.

--[[User:Crazyrabbits|Crazyrabbits]] 10:00, 15 November 2006 (CST)

== Explanations ==

A note about the Resurection ship jumping into the battle... it would seem that this is actually a good tactical move from the Cylon perspective. After Pegasus and Galactica easily destroyed the first resurrection ship and it's escorts, it would be prudent for the Cylons to keep the new ship with their fleet... even if this means taking it into battle with them. From their point of view it might look as if Galactica was trying to sucker the baseships away from the resurrection ship so the colonials could attack it. They've already used the "sucker" strategy a number of times, we could just be seeing a Cylon reaction to that strategy. Bringing the ship with them would negate such a threat as several basestars (more than enough to hold galactica off) would be able to cover for it.

As far as supply lines, it would figure that Galactica would know about this. Basic military strategy is to harass or at least keep an eye on enemy supply lines.

Also a note about the raptors and their missiles. The colonials may have found, after the battle over new caprica, that the missile attachments for the raptors were effective and could be adapted for other (combat) uses as well. It would also figure that after the loss of Pegasus, the colonials would be trying everything they could to increase firepower. This is probably just a jury-rig solution for increasing galactica's firepower.

: And all this has yet to be supported on screen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:45, 13 November 2006 (CST)

::In [[The Captain's Hand]] Admiral Adama orders a recon of 5 Raptors, 2 of them SAR and 3 Escort. Though never seen onscreen heavily armed Raptors must have been around for some time. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 14:57, 13 November 2006 (CST)

: It is also distinctly possible that the weapon pods were not available until the arrival of the Pegasus. The cache at Ragnar Anchorage was likely primarily the weapons themselves, and not a supply of launchers or similar hardware. Since Galactica was slated for retirement and Pegasus was fully operational it is very likely the later ship was much better equipped with combat military hardware.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 22:30, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== About Gaeta ==
Looking at the question here:

: Why is Gaeta so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D'Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?

Er, well, the last time Gaeta saw Baltar, he gave him a gun and told him his last chance at redemption was to stop Three from setting off the nuke. Given that the nuke didn't go off, it isn't unreasonable to believe Baltar was successful, and that in succeeding he would have either died or been stranded on New Caprica. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 02:50, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:Gaeta knew that he was chummy with the Cylons. For him to convince them not to detonate the nuke (not hard, given that it would be at best a symbolic gesture) and still make it off the planet alive is well within the realm of possibility. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)

==A quick battle==

I was just wondering but is the skirmish with Galactica and the Basestars going to be added into the Second Cylon War or not? Sure it was short but it still had combat and casualties so it should be added to the list. [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:54, 13 November 2006 (CST)
: Sure, I don't see why not. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:10, 13 November 2006 (CST)

Should it be known as a battle or more of a skirmish? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 19:21, 22 November 2006 (CST)

==Baltar's Torture==

This is just pure speculation for speculation's sake, but I can't help thinking something more than Three being "touched" by Baltar's insane screaming of "don't stop..." "I believe in you" and "I love you with all my heart" (with internal Six's coaching) is going on in this scene. Three's indiference at the onset of her torturing, and her musing over which torture tool she should use doesnt seem like it could be changed or swayed by anything Baltar would say. i would say that judging from the torture tools they have, and their experiences on New Caprica at extracting information on detainees they know a little about torturing, it doesn't seem that Baltar saying anything he could to stop the torture would be unexpected. This leads me to wonder about exactly what he did say with the help of internal Six. perhaps those phrases, or the way he said it struck something in Three that only Cylons are aware of...maybe it means something that neither the Viewer or Baltar is aware of...I just find it hard to believe that Three, fully prepared for torture, even having fun picking what instrument to use...could be so easily moved from some snivelling bleating human saying he loves her with all his heart...Did Six give Baltar these phrases to say because she knew they'd strike a cord in a fellow Cylon, Three's reaction was quite a reaction, and then touching his lips like she couldn't believe those words came out of his mouth.....I don't know...just speculating.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 12:23, 14 November 2006 (CST)

--I wonder if the incongruity of those phrases to the situation of being tortured made Three wonder if Baltar was projecting. Now, if they've tortured other humans, they've probably seen people break with reality and shut down before, but perhaps that's a reaction beyond anything they've ever seen before. More like a Cylon being tortured? Is that what their instinct is, if they're in the same situation as Baltar? --[[User:Rose Immortal|Rose Immortal]]

==Note about the virus is incorrect==

The note:

Dr. Cottle identifies the disease as Lymphocytic encephalitis, however encephalitis is a condition (swelling of the brain) that can be caused by a pathogen, not a pathogen itself. More likely the pathogen is Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus.

When a doctor identifies a disease, he normally states the name of the disease, not the name of the virus. The note itself states that Doc Cottle identifies the "disease," not the pathogen. I think the note needs to be modified or deleted. --[[User:123home123|123home123]] 20:58, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== Accessing the "Hybrid?" ==

Is that what Athena is doing? Do we know that? It just sounds odd when phrased that way. [[User:Wldkt1|Wldkt1]] 02:56, 14 November 2006 (CST)

== The antibody degradative debate? ==

Ok, the latest addition to this point is the most scientifically accurate (antibodies do not have degradative functionality)! Read the wiki articles yourself to confirm and help you understand. On a more serious note if contributors (chiefly the second one on this topic) feel that an explanation or analysis point is incorrect or poorly explained than they need to do their homework before they dispute it and make up their own science. I know its only a fan wiki on battlestar but lets not plague our site with scientific inconsistencies like in 'A measure of Salvation' (Their science advisor must of been on holiday when this was written), after all we have luxury of being able to correct ourselves in hindsight ;) [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 18:10, 15 November 2006 (CST)

:Sorry, but antibodies *do* have degradative capability, it has been known for at least 4 years now. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/298/5601/2195

::Alright, this is getting silly now. This article is talking about the antibody catalysed generation of peroxide and an ozone analogue, referring to the apparent toxicity of these products to bacterial species - no mention of RNA degradation (or any other kind of degradation for that matter) here, mate!. Im super sorry, but AB's **don't** have degradative functionality! [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 15:08, 19 November 2006 (CST)

:After spending over 25 years working in the clincial field (including being a lab director and now consultant), much of it involving research in imunology, immunohematology, genetics, and similar areas, I believe I know a bit more than what's presented in a few overly simplistic paragraphs in some an abbreviated article. I've dealt with far to many on the internet like yourself who reads a few sentences and brands themselves an expert. I came to this site because I believed it would be an enjoyable place to talk about my favorite show, but apparently this is just another one flled with those who prefer to hide behind their monitors and make snide comments. I'm not here to get into this type of garbage, so that's it, I'm done and out of here.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 01:07, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::There will always be people that claim to know all and others that really do belive that they know the right answer. The solution is just to provide loads of sourced for what you say. I dont know of your technical background but it would be very beneficial for all if you stayed and we can work this bit out. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:02, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::I'm sorry you feel that way, and I do have a solution to the above issue. It's a really simple solution, so here goes: all the science information needs to be sourced. I'm not talking about using links to Wikipedia (which we shouldn't really be sourcing from anyway), but I'm talking about adding sources from scientific journals and the like. References that GeorgeW should have access to, if I'm correct on that. Otherwise, I'm inclined to yank the entire thing since it isn't sourced at all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:41, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::: I have cited an excellent reference on this topic in the article, a text that was very useful to me in my first undergrad year. It would be rather difficult to cite an appropriate journal (even a review) because the topic is very basic. In addition very few people would have access to any article cited without paying or having a subscription (personal or institutional), though most major libraries are bound to stock this text. My inclusion of Wiki articles as references were due to the fact that they provide a sound and simplistic (extremely accurate, believe it or not!) explanation of the relevant topics, as I assume most people reading these articles don't have a degree in a biological science. As for George W. Bush's 25 years of clinical experience (hmm?), I'd like to know if he's willing to dispute a scientific textbook! [[User:Jxh487|Jxh487]] 17:51, 16 November 2006 (CST)

::::Regardless of who is right or wrong (I'm NOT taking sides here), there shouldn't be debate in the analysis section. Currently it reads like:
::::A
:::::NOT (A)
::::::NOT (NOT (A))
::::Which is NOT (Encycopledic) to read. Pull out your sources, measure them (weigh them, whatever), and the winner takes all (and gets a quick blurb about A (or NOT (A)) in the "Analysis" section). Also, when citing your sources you may want to make use of the [[:Category:Citation templates|citation templates]] when citing books, journal articles, etc. That's what makes the cool little footnotes that show up in the "References" section. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:06, 16 November 2006 (CST)

== sickbay ship ==

William Adama says in the final scene:

:''Cottle's report from the virus: He thinks that it was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon '''we''' abandoned on '''the sickbay ship'''.''

*What is ''the sickbay ship''? When did this happen?
*Who does ''we'' refer to in this statement if Adama and Laura seem to believe that the beacon was left there as a ''signpost to earth''?

--[[User:Pix|Pix]] 01:35, 17 November 2006 (CST)

:From Sadgeezer's transcript:
:'''Adama, standing''': Cottle's report on the virus. He thinks that it was simply an accidental contamination of the beacon we abandoned on the sick baseship.

:'''Roslin''': Somebody sneezed, maybe.

:SO to the first, I think it was sick baseship, not sickbay ship. And the we refers to the Fleet collectively, but specifically to themselves (being the decisionmakers that decided to leave it onboard the baseship rather than bring it aboard and risk contamination). It sounds like they maybe wish they'd have picked it up now, but at least they're on the right track.
:If you check out the [[Podcast:A Measure of Salvation|podcast transcript]], you'll hear/see that actually as originally scripted they did pick up the beacon, and were going to chuck it through space at the Cylons, but the writers/producers decided that was lame and chose to leave it on the destroyed ship rather than have to deal with getting rid of it in a subsequent episode. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:46, 17 November 2006 (CST)

::Haha, I can't believe that Adama's strange speaking rhythm in that scene completely threw me off. The interpretation, ''sick baseship'' had never entered my mind, despite making considerably more sense. --[[User:Pix|Pix]] 19:42, 17 November 2006 (CST)

== Battle Article ==
Does the little skirmish deserve a "Battle of NCD2539" article? --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 17:57, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:Sure. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:49, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== Virus "Discussion" ==
Wouldn't the majority of this "discussion" fit in the [[Life sciences in the Re-imagined Series
]] article? Would make the episode article much neater. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:10, 17 November 2006 (CST)
:Why is it beyond everyone to just admit that the medical technobabble was complete BS? There's no profit to be found in coming up with excuses for it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:24, 19 November 2006 (CST)

== I don't get it. ==

Can somebody explain the premise of this episode? How does this virus threaten to become a genocidal pandemic?

There was some technobabble that I didn't quite understand (perhaps somebody can elucidate) about how an infected Cyclon who dies would somehow download the contagion along with its memories.

Accepting that the infected Cylon remains infected after resurrection, how would the contagion spread from there? Presumably the first words out of the mouth of the Cylon after resurrection would be "I'M INFECTED!!!" and the resurrection ship would quarantine itself, or simply destroy itself. Even if the carrier Cylon were unable to communicate its status, the Cylons still know about the existence of the threat (which is why the infected basestar was left marooned), and are presumably intelligent enough not to let anything leave a resurrection ship without first being checked and cleared.

I've watched the episode twice now, and I still have no idea how this virus was supposed to threaten the entire Cylon race. Can somebody explain it so that this idiot (me) can understand?

On an unrelated note, Hera, who cured Roslin's cancer in an earlier episode and has now rendered Athena immune to the Cylon plague, is starting to remind me of the magical crossbreed from [[Wikipedia:V (The Final Battle)|V: The Final Battle]]. When you're cribbing from "V," you're really scraping the bottom of the sci-fi barrel.

[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 15:17, 25 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Epiphanies/Archive 1

2006-11-25T18:55:57Z

Capedia: /* Bomb Use Spoiler */

Talk:Humanoid Cylon/Archive4

2006-11-22T19:46:59Z

Capedia: /* Origin of Cylon Agents */

{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 01
| number = 1
| start = April 2, 2005
| end = January 23, 2006
| items = {{archive-item|01|12 Cylon or 12 Humano-Cylon models?}} {{archive-item|01|Same, yet Different?}} {{archive-item|01|Origin of the Term "Humano-Cylon"?}} {{archive-item|01|Hybrids/Sharon's daughter article?}} {{archive-item|01|Order of Models}} {{archive-item|01|Re: Adama and Gaeta being ruled out as "Humano-Cylons"}} {{archive-item|01|Ellen Tigh}} {{archive-item|01|Cylon Series Revision}} {{archive-item|01|Did Boomer really know the count of infiltrators}} {{archive-item|end=Y|01|List of people who are ruled out as Cylons?}}
|}}

== Replacement and retirement of article title ==

:''This discussion's origin originated in [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions#Replacement and retirement of the term "Humano-Cylon"|the Standards and Conventions talk page]], where you can find the original content.''

Per the discussion in the above link, I plan to move this article to [[Cylon agent]], as it is the most commonly used term to describe the humanoid Cylon models. "Humano-Cylon" will redirect here, and we will need to scour for other terms to redirect as well. This name is sufficiently canonical that it is unlikely that further debate is required. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:58, 14 February 2006 (EST)

:Go for it. Though with an article title of "Cylon agent", it would be great to have a screen capture of the file on Laura's desk that has that wording on it. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:04, 14 February 2006 (EST)

:I may just spend $2 on iTunes to get just that. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:14, 14 February 2006 (EST)

::Move completed; no Big Thang. Summary subarticle in Cylon series pages also updated. Please update any pages for old terminology when appropriate. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:33, 14 February 2006 (EST)

: Am I right in saying that all references to Humano-Cylon should be changed to Cylon agent> --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 08:12, 6 March 2006 (CST)
::That's correct. We're going with "Cylon agent" since the only evidence indicating "Humano-Cylon" (see below) may have been doctored by the Cylons to throw us off... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:19, 6 March 2006 (CST)

:::Just to clarify; they made the picture below as a joke. Really, we discussed it on our Conventions page, and "human-cylon" seemed too much like describing the Hybrid, and hasn't gained much outside use, so we opted for something else. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:05, 6 March 2006 (CST)

== Known Cylon Agents ==
That pic is AWESOME! It fits the section so well that I would normally suspect that it had been photoshopped (if I hadn't already seen it in the show). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:00, 15 February 2006 (EST)
:Perhaps you moved the article too soon...
:I'll likely delete this image soon. I just had the idea of Photoshopping the folder after the preceding post. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:19, 15 February 2006 (EST)
:Photoshop: Suitable tool, or instrument of Satan? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:37, 15 February 2006 (EST)

== Naming Convention ==

As of "[[Downloaded]]" we now finally know some other Model numbers besides Number Six: "D'anna Biers" is '''Number Three''', "Aaron Doral" is '''Number Five''', and "Sharon 'Boomer' Valerii" is '''Number Eight'''.

In light of this, should we change the title of some, or all, of their character articles to read "Number Three", etc. like for Number Six? Because apparently, among themselves the Cylons never actually use the fake human names some used as spys, or indeed refer to themselves by name at all. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I would think that the unfortunately named Number Two is a pretty thankless job. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, where those numbers are known. I broached the subject on [[Talk:Sharon Valerii]] and am currently awaiting a little more feedback before we go ahead with the move. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:07, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Do the Cylons tend to look out for Number One? [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Number One is not a number, he is a man. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:10, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:A free man? [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:24, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::I agree with changing the title of ALL articles referring to the mainstream model, making two new for D'anna and Aaron (the media models) like we did for the sharons and sixes.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 25 February 2006

When did "we" start calling them "Galactica-Boomer", "Caprica-Boomer", "Pegasus-Six", etc? You see, Televesionwithoutpity.com does make up and popularize terms like this....but I'm not sure if they STARTED using it, or if they TOOK UP using it from some reviewer or the messageboards. I seriously think this is one of those Stand Alone Complex things; we all just more or less independently, from the grassroots up, got the idea to do that. Anyone? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 04:49, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:Pretty much. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:03, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::I generally compel the proper use of "Boomer" to the Galactica model only, as she is the copy that actually served. ''No one'' in episodes have called the Caprica copy by that name, and things are confusing enough. "Caprica-Valerii" or "Galactica-Valerii" (or Boomer) is better. Otherwise, yes, we have to make things up until we get an official term, but we should be consistent and precise about it. ''Never'' use Sharon in any context--use of character first names only is against wiki convention in episode summaries. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:19, 25 February 2006 (EST)
:::Actually, Baltar called Caprica-Sharon "Boomer" at the end of Home, part 2. But what does he know?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:55, 9 March 2006 (EST)

== Question: a Cylon agent transfers its consciousness... ==

I just started watching BSG about a week ago and im only part way through season 2, but I'm thinking isn't there a way for the Galactica crew to stop the cylon agents they kill from transmiting their consciousness? Cant they put the agent in a room with thick metal walls to stop the signal, or put their bodies into a woodchipper, or something similar, so whatever system in the body that transmits will be destroyed? In season one they just tossed the agent out an airlock, they didn't even try to stop him. I guess they really haven't explained yet how it is even possible for the agent's body to come up with enough energy to transmit their entire consciousness in an undetectable signal instantly across several light years. Maybe they'll get to it in a future episode, including the ones I haven't seen yet. Right now, its very magical fairies. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 17:07, 9 March 2006 (CST)

: It comes up a bit later. Specifically, right after the mid-season cliff-hanger of Season 2. Not ''all'' your questions will be answered, but it becomes less magical. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:09, 10 March 2006 (CST)

== Grace Park Reveals Cylon Secrets.... ==
MediaBlvd's interview with Grace Park was releasd in the full today, revealing a few more things about the nature of the Cylons that had not been released before. A lot of things are Park's own point of view, but she does mention a few interesting facts she read in the "Cylon Handout". Some of these facts include:

:" Because Cylons were created in the form of humans, and humans were created in God’s image, and Cylons want to be close to God, they can actually choose - but some models more likely than others tend to eat rather than just taking in nutrients. We just learned all this, I didn’t even know it, but taking in nutrients, I think through the skin"

:"There would be specific ports in the Cylon base ship that they could do this, and they can also do that with information."

:"- it wasn’t a very specific jack, like your phone jack in the wall. Nothing like that in her arm."

:"A little bit of both of that. Within one model, the different bodies can share memories, but within that model only. Now I use the words ‘CAN share memories,’ because it’s not like they all automatically share them. I’m under the understanding that you can choose to upload, and you can choose to download information."

:"- that the Cylons that we’ve known so far are programmed not even to think about the last five."

These are the actual facts she mentions, amidst her opinions, but what I posted were the solid facts. The last one had already been mentioned before, but this comment clarified that it's not that they don't know who they are, they just don't think about them.

There are also some other interesting tidbits in there (such as why exactly the Naked Sharons let themeselves die) which may help other articles.

I wanted to ask before posting any of this information, it's all solid and concise, but should we nonetheless abstain from putting in the bits we got (because we have nothing else and it would prove to be tantalizing). I think we should put it in, since they are actual facts from the new "Cylon Bible", but I wanted to pass it here so that you can judge on where to put them and how to word them. (Cuz I suck at actually adding it on the article, so I'd rather share the info and let someone else do the fine tuning on the article itself)

For the full interview: http://www.mediablvd.com/magazine/Magazine-Home/MBMag_20060420145.html

--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:22 09 May 2006

:That's kind of how I always rationalized they must share info; not between models, not a hive mind, they CAN but don't alaways. This "nutrient bath" thing is new and intruiging though. "This form brings us closer to God"; yeah I was already theorizing on this after that comment in KLG II that that's why they wanted to appear humanlike. Anyway, great to get some more or less confirmation on those musings/speculation. ***I don't know why, but some people treated it as a "oh my God, massive spoiler" that the 7 known Cylon models might not consciously think of who the unrevealed ones are. I mean, it doesn't actually affect the plot or ANY of our speculation so far; always assumed they had some sort of saftey feature like that for secrecy. '''I wonder: was this "Cylon Bible" RECENTLY written?''' The [[Series Bible]] was written in the break between the Miniseries and season one. Of course, they could have had these Cylon points as running ideas in the writer's room, but is this new, written down 10 page-ish long "Cylon Bible" something new she got? Context. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:26, 9 May 2006 (CDT)

::It seems the series bible did not containt detailed information on the Cylon Characters beyond the basics, the new bible is specifically made for Cylons I think, probably detailing some history, both personal and such, and the kind of things that may help an actor understand who/what they are playing.

Also, this nutrient bath may be the reason we saw the Sharons naked in KLG2, rather than the Cylons being nudists., and maybe that's also why that part of the Basestar is organic, because it feeds the Ships and the Agents. Guess we'll know in Season 3 --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]]

:::Well I always thought they were naked just because they were "fresh off the assembly line" or "in storage" or whatever; like Terminator. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 16:09, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

::::Maybe, but with the Resurrection Ship.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]]10 May 2006

So wouldn't the Grace Park interview indicate that the evidence "against" Baltar being a Cylon presented in Downloaded is pretty much bupkis? If the agents arent supposed to think of him as an agent, they'd call him a human. In fact, Baltar's behavior is so selfish it borders on cliche. It would seem to me that he would fit the "selfish asshole" archetype of humanity pretty damned well. --[[User:Number Thirteen|Number Thirteen]] 01:04, 12 October 2006 (CDT)

== telepathic abilities ==

When Sharon met here "sisters" in the basestar, she could hear their voices. Could that mean, that she has telepathic abilities? Or possibly a kind of relaying made this possible? -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 12:06, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:Hi, Tirkon. We really don't have any information into the actual manner in which agents transfer low level data (specifically, their memories). They aren't like the Borg; they haven't a collective consciousness. For Boomer to "hear" their voices may suggest that she (as a sleeper) was hearing this low level data transfer for the first time, and being on a basestar may have exacerbated this ability. Agents very likely share data from a collective knowledgebase (since models of the same kind seem to know much of what another model knows, to a point). Since Cylon agents are still constructs, the concept of telepathic abilities suggest implausible things that attribute more biological (even spiritual) concepts to these constructs that probably don't apply; a machine can definitely transmit and receive data (something proven in "Downloaded") so this is the best way to consider Boomer's realization, in my opinion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:22, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

== humanoid cylons stronger than humans ==
I think, it is confirmed, that the humanoid cylons are stronger than humans. I.e. confirmed by the fights Starbuck-Number Six, Starbuck-Leoben and William Adama-Leoben. In particular during the fight Starbuck-Number Six Six throws Starbuck as hard as a human never could. During "Downloaded" Six slays Number Three with a huge piece of concrete, which never could be handled so easy by a human. And this piece must have bean very heavy, because the head of Number Three was mud after that. -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 12:43, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:That's generally true. While their bodies are still just as vulnerable to injury as a human body, their strength is definitely greater, although we can't state by how much. We can assume that they are strong enough to pick up a human of similar size, but are not strong enough to bend steel bars (otherwise captured agents could escape their cages). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:57, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::''>We can assume that they are strong enough to pick up a human of similar size'' ... and throw it about four meters. -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 13:13, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::And there seems to be a little disaccord. If one is strong enough for doing that, he also must be heavy enough for doing that (balance weight). That is opposite to the sex between Baltar and Six, when Six was lying on him (the read vertebral column in miniseries). -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 13:39, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

== humanoid cylons = agents? ==
You always talk here from the humoid cylons as agents. Is that realy true? Are they ALL!! agents? Possibly the word "agent" does not have the same meaning in Englisch and German. -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 12:32, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:The term "Cylon Agent" came [[:Image:Cylonagentdossier.jpg|from the show]]. See the [[Cylon_agent#_note-name|name note]] at the bottom of the article. So it's mostly a matter of trying to be "canonical" than trying to imply any sort of affiliation or loyalty. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:50, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::Aaaaaah! Thanks for that claricifation. :o) In the german Battlestar version the term "agent" is not as common. German Wikipedia points out a difference between the english and german use of term "agent". Thus this could be a matter for that. Further the view of some cylons ("the heros in "Download") has changed. Thus in german Battlestar Wiki I have used "humanoid cylon" instead of "cylon agent". And with you comment I am safe, that this dicision was adequate. Sorry for cannot beeing as precise as I would. But I am not a native english speaker. -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 13:23, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::Maybe its just me but i always loved the term [[Humano-Cylon]] ^_^ --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 13:30, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::Not a problem! Looks like everything worked out. Also, bear in mind that the standards and conventions of the particular wiki should rule for its articles. That is to say, the German Wiki's standards and conventions should govern the articles at the German wiki. Don't let the [[BW:SC|English version]] restrict you at all. As long as you're consistent with your own rules there the German reader/editor will have a more standard/uniform experience. (Though you may want to update [[:de:Battlestar Wiki:Standards und Konventionen|that page ]] once you've established new conventions). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:34, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::::''>want to update that page'' At present we are just two translaters. And we are still going to built up the structere and translate the episodes and the most important characters. At this state such conventions are not the point. ;o) And the human cylons was until now the only point, what was a little problematic for me. Thus I wanted discuss this with the well-versed people here. And this was helpful :o) -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 13:55, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

== Unseen cylon agent (miniseries) ==

In the miniseries, Number Six mentions to Baltar that she is meeting someone (26:35 into the miniseries) when they are walking in public prior to the attack. She leaves Baltar and immediately meets with an unseen person (27:12), remarking "It's about time, wondered when you'd get here". This person can only be a cylon - but they never appear on screen. Who could it be?

--[[User:Cfuxe|cfuse]] 06:48, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

: Anyone. It could also be just another very human bloke Six had contact with during her time on Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:10, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

== Cylon naming and instancing ==

Cylons agents (including sleeper agents) appear to be able to distinguish different instances of the same cylon model from one and other without any difficulty. In Downloaded, 'Sharon' seems to have no difficulty in identifying individual cylons apart, despite the fact that all cylons of a given model are visually identical. In addition, she is admonished for using her name because it is a vestige of her human identity and presumably redundant in cylon society.

--[[User:Cfuxe|cfuse]] 06:57, 18 September 2006 (CDT)
: Honestly, we don't know how they do it, and I doubt that it'll ever be explained in the series. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:13, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

== Centurions ==

It's been added that Cylon Centurions can't tell the difference between copies of the same model, but that's not what Adama said. He said that they can't tell one humanoid Cylon (ex: Sharon) apart from any other humanoid Cylon. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:51, 10 October 2006 (CDT)

== A word about Number Three ==

The entry about Number Three says, that of all the Cylon agent models revealed to viewers, the Colonials are not yet aware that D'anna Biers is a Cylon agent as of the season two finale, "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II." 
Oh, c'mon. In "Downloaded" D'Anna, along with other Cylons, was clearly seen by Samuel Anders. In "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I" Anders arrives on Galactica - did you think that he hasn't told the others about what he saw on Caprica? The moment Anders was rescued by Starbuck&Co., the true identity of D'Anna was no longer a secret (hence her presence on New Caprica).-- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 17:29, 17 October 2006 (CDT)

:Hi, Spike. Aside from the article now being out of date, the specific clarification you're missing is "of all the Cylon agents revealed to viewers, the ''members of [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]]'' are not aware that D'anna Biers is a Cylon as of "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II."" ''Galactica's'' members and her Fleet may still be unaware that the one named D'Anna is a Cylon (but has likely received intel from their Raptor deployments in Season 3). Anders (although a Colonial) was not part of the Fleet until the end of LDYB and may have not seen the documentary that Biers created, thus not being able to inform the Fleet of yet another Cylon. It is likely that he does inform them; we as viewers aren't enlightened to this until the obvious events on New Caprica where all known agents are revealed to them. (Please be sure to sign your comments; place a couple of dashes and four tilde symbols (~). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:32, 17 October 2006 (CDT)

== Cylons as the Lords of Kobol ==

Given the 12 models of Cylon Agents, it seems possible that they represent the 12 Lords of Kobol. Many of the models seem to have traits associated with the Olympians. I’m not suggesting that the Cylons actually are the gods themselves, but copies of the gods. They may or may not know that they represent the gods. A list of the Olympians matches fairly well with what we know about some of the Cylons. (In particular, the Number 6 / Aphrodite connection is almost undeniable.) Some agents who we know less about (Simon, Cavil) are a looser fit.

'''Poseidon''', God of the Sea. Holds influence among the Olympians, but is greedy and quarrelsome. - Cavil? ||
'''Hades''', God of the Underworld. Unpitying, always in control of his domain. Abducted a woman to be his wife – Leoben ||
'''Hera''', Zeus’s wife. Holds great influence, constantly schemes. - Number 3 ||
'''Ares''', God of War. A brutal murderer, but also a coward. - Number 5 ||
'''Athena'''. A fierce soldier and protector of her people. - Number 8 ||
'''Aphrodite''', Goddess of Beauty. Holds great power over men. - Number 6 ||
'''Hephaestus''', God of the Forge. Skills are mental, and creation, not a fighter. - Simon

This leaves Zeus, Hestia, Apollo, Hermes, and Artemis as the remaining unknown Cylons. Does anyone else think there may be something to this, or have better fits for some agents? --[[User:PhoenixDreams|PhoenixDreams]] 14:24, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

: I've definitely considered the possibility that the Cylon Models and the Lords of Kobol are intimately connected for quite a while. The problem always was that the Greek Pantheon did not neatly end up with a dozen gods, so there was a fair amount of guess work for the what the remaining Lords of Kobol were. For example, I doubt Hestia will be one of them: she's a fairly obscure goddess. Demeter or Dionysus are more likely candidates.

: I really like some of the parallels you've come up with though. Aphrodite=Six was always the fairly obvious one, and I've considered Sharon as Athena. I quite like the parallels between Leoben and Hades. All of the other parallels you've come up with work. It's just that without knowing all of the Lords of Kobol and all of the models, and what roles they will ultimately play, it's hard to say exactly how everyone fits. Sure, at the moment Number Six seems to obviously be the Aphrodite of the Cylons, but with her obsession with childbirth, I sometimes wonder if she's destined to be Artemis. Not that she's especially virginal. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 14:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

They could be the 12 Gods of Kobol, or one for each of the 12 Colonies, which then of course suggests there may be a 13th secret model to correspond to Earth. [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 13:28, 15 November 2006 (EST)

== The 5 remaining agents ==
I think it is apparent that the function of the 5 remaining agents is different from the function of the 7 known agents (my analysis) since the 7 seem to be making decisions on both New Caprica and on the basestar about Baltar and the other 5 are not. Additionally, we have Aaron Douglas's speculation on their status and there is probably other evidence but I honestly haven't done any research on that. Is there enough beef behind this line of reasoning to say that it's not speculation on my part and is worthy of putting SOMETHING on the article page? --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:18, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:It's certainly speculation, and moreover, it's based on spoilers. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:25, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Possibilities ==

I wonder if there is a non-humanoid sapient Cylon we haven't seen yet, maybe something too large to effectively move around (perhaps stuck on the Cylon homeworld that the Cylons disappeared to after the first Cylon war). It could explain a number of things, including how the Cylon agents came into being -- perhaps they are a sort of iPod version of the non-humanoid sapient Cylons, fitting a technological sapience into a more convenient humanoid form.

Centurions themselves nor their ships could not have been all there was to the Cylons in the days of the first Cylon war -- how could they rebel? They simply follow orders and carry them out. There must have been *something* or *someone* in those days to alter their programming if not have some sort of control seizure to make them rebel against the human Colonials. It may have originally been some sort of central server-like system.

Its just a wild idea, and probably not what the writers have in mind, but something like it could explain some of the seeming inconsistencies and plot holes. Something completely different could also work, I suppose. The Centurions certainly don't seem to have true sapience, and I doubt they have any religious conceptions. --[[User:Itsua|Itsua]] 08:38, 9 November 2006 (CST)

: There's a lot we don't know about the Cylons past. However, it's been hinted at that the old Centurions had artifical intelligence, which allowed them to think independently. The new Cylon Centurions, however, don't have a true artificial intelligence since the Cylons themselves didn't want their own machines to rebel against them (this is established in "[[Precipice]]", by the way). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:01, 9 November 2006 (CST)

::It seems improbable that the Cylons were originally ''just'' Centurions whom later created the Agents, unless the original Centurions were just as sapient (if not moreso) as the Agents. I'm hoping/guessing the origin of the Agents will be explored in future episodes, and perhaps Caprica will explain more of the Cylon origins. --[[User:Itsua|Itsua]] 06:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:::I got the distinct impression that the Centurions were originally true AIs and created the skinjobs over intermediate stages like the Raiders and Hybrids. But then the skinjobs - in a nice parallel to humanity - enslaved the Centurions and stripped them off most of their intelligence. As said all that is touched on in "Precipice" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:22, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Major Revision ==

I've made heavy reorganization and concisions to this article to make it easier to discern the nature of these characters. I've removed data redundant with episode or character articles, and also removed a great deal of [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking material]] that was introduced into the article. The article is still on the long side; further concision to reduce redundancies with other articles is appreciated. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:12, 10 November 2006 (CST)

== Origin of Cylon Agents ==

This article asserts, as fact, that the Cylon agents are the result of technological development by the previous Cylon models.

Is this conclusively established in the series so far?

I have suspected that the origin of the Cylon agents was likely the result of either a miraculous fluke or contact with another advanced intelligence — perhaps the Lords of Kobol, whatever the frak they were. Perhaps even God, though it seems unlikely that He would involve Himself in the affairs of the world in such a literal manner (if He exists at all, which is an open question).

If the Cylons have complete access to and understanding of the technology to create the agents, why are they limited to 12 models? It seems they should have the ability to create additional models whenever they want to, the same way that they created the first 12.

[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 13:46, 22 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Humanoid Cylon/Archive4

2006-11-22T19:44:53Z

Capedia: Origin of Cylon Agents