Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Gabriel Köerner

2009-02-21T12:22:06Z

Bp: /* External Links */

{{Crew Data
| image= Koerner-2005.jpg
| role=Special Effects
| series=[[RDM]]
| born_month= 6
| born_day= 14
| born_year= 1982
| death_month=
| death_day=
| death_year=
| nationality=US
| imdb=0462933
}}
'''Gabriel Köerner''' is a visual effects artist for the [[Re-imagined]] series of Battlestar Galactica.

Köerner appeared at the age of fifteen in the documentary ''[[Wikipedia:Trekkies|Trekkies]]'', working on visual effects for a ''[[Wikipedia:Star Trek|Star Trek]]'' fan film.

In 2003, Köerner, while working at [[Zoic]], contributed a number of models for the new ''Battlestar Galactica'' [[Miniseries]]. His credits include:

*[[Viper Mark II|Viper Mk. II]] exterior (model and textures)
*Viper Mk. II interior
*''Galactica'' hangar interior matte
*The ''[[Gemenon Traveler]]''/''[[Kimba Huta]]'' type transport.
*The [[Space Park]]
*The [[Luxury liner]]

In 2005, Köerner contributed the CGI model of the ''[[MemoryAlpha:Enterprise-D|Enterprise-D]]'' seen in the last scene of the ''[[MemoryAlpha:Star Trek: Enterprise|Star Trek: Enterprise]]'' series finale, "[[MemoryAlpha:These Are the Voyages...|These Are the Voyages...]]". <ref name="trekweb">{{cite web|url=http://trekweb.com/stbbs/showThread.php?bid=r8yhsW3AaKqzE&tid=427fdff21fc98&cid=427fdff224a0f&viewby=&sort=&order=&numReplies=22#427fdff224a0f|title=Post to TrekWeb.com|accessdate=2006-08-24|date=2006-05-09}}</ref>

==External Links==
*{{brokenlink|http://gabekoerner.com/|Gabriel Köerner's official site}}
*[[Wikipedia:Gabriel Köerner|Biography]] at [http://en.wikipedia.org Wikipedia]
{{ext-ma|article=Gabriel Koerner}}
*[[IMDB:nm0462933|Filmography]] at [http://www.imdb.com IMDB]

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{stub}}

[[Category:A to Z|Köerner, Gabriel]]
[[Category:Behind the Scenes|Köerner, Gabriel]]
[[Category:Crew|Köerner, Gabriel]]
[[Category:Crew (RDM)|Köerner, Gabriel]]
[[Category: Former Star Trek Cast and Crew|Köerner, Gabriel]]
[[Category:RDM|Köerner, Gabriel]]

Template:Brokenlink

2009-02-21T12:20:11Z

Bp: handy thing from memory-alpha

<includeonly>{{{text|{{{2|{{{1}}}}}}}}}<div class="noicon" style="display:inline;">[http://web.archive.org/web/*/{{{url|{{{1}}}}}} wbm]</div></includeonly><noinclude>
This template is to leave broken external links where they are, but make it apparent that they are broken. They shouldn't just disappear if they were an important source of information. They may provide an important clue to where one might find similar information. Someone can later fix the link or find a new source.

== Usage ==
<nowiki>{{brokenlink|</nowiki><tt>url</tt>|<tt>text</tt><nowiki>}}</nowiki>
Use these field names if the URL contains an equal sign:
* '''<tt>url</tt>''' is the URL of the link
* '''<tt>text</tt>''' is the text of the link

<nowiki>{{brokenlink|http://www.poetsonbroadway.com/|Tony Jay's homepage}}</nowiki>

{{brokenlink|http://www.poetsonbroadway.com/|Tony Jay's homepage}}

</noinclude>

Talk:Navigation in the Re-imagined Series/Archive 1

2007-08-26T12:03:49Z

Bp: /* No credit! */

This article comprises the topics on navigation from a past larger article version of [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]], broken out for later expansion and page size considerations. The Reaction Control System article and parts of the FTL article are also included. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:13, 11 October 2006 (CDT)

There may be a significant error in the section on distances. The 30 minute communications delay between Adar and Roslin is most likely a total round trip delay -- 15 minutes each way, not 30. This would mean that all distances, times, and speeds derived from this number should be halved. --[[User:Girckin|Girckin]] 21:22, 7 November 2006 (CST)
:When Roslin later speaks to 'Jack' over the wireless, there is no such delay whatsoever. Billy may have meant the time it takes to get Roslin's speech from the plane to the President's eyes, or some delay in that process. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:07, 2 January 2007 (CST)

== Cleanup ==

I've tagged this for clean-up, it is a mess, for example it has self references, assumptions and original research, which are not encyclopaedic. [[User:MatthewFenton|MatthewFenton]] 15:44, 30 December 2006 (CST)

:Keep in mind, before you make changes, that ''Battlestar Galactica'' is a work of fiction. The information in this encyclopedia is self-referencing sometimes because it is it's own universe. Much of the research involves [[BW:CJ#Derived content|derived content]], which is allowable if it is based on information provided by official information in the show. Be careful not to apply the original research processes os Wikipedia here; they do not fully apply. Please note what items you consider original research so all can review them and determine if the items are derived content or ''unsourced original research'', also known as [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]], which is not allowable here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:53, 30 December 2006 (CST)
::"We know that Battlestar Galactica's universe sticks to the same speed of light constant as real-world Earth (and the universe, of course): 186,282 miles per second." - Who is we? Is we me and the wiki, if so how do I know, how does we know? - Basically you should never use the word "we" here -- Self-referencing isn't just writing down text, an example of self-referencing would be an episode page.
:::"Given the velocities involved, extremely high accelerations must be used to attain them in reasonable (useable [''sic'']) time frames involved for in-system transportation. Such G forces would kill any humans involved unless some means of dampening them were employed. Given that the technology to perform "space-folding" FTL Jumps is also available, the technology to manipulate gravity would lie in the same area." - space-folding, when has space-folding been mentioned in the series?
::::Just two things that immediately jump out at me. This page reads like an essay to me at least. [[User:MatthewFenton|MatthewFenton]] 17:34, 1 January 2007 (CST)

:::I agree, Matthew. We can neutralize the writing to make it leas like an essay. If you don't get to it, I'll make the changes. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:37, 1 January 2007 (CST)

:::: About space-folding: While it hasn't been stated on screen, I recall an interview with Moore and/or Eick, where they said that they wanted to actually show the spacefolding effect in more detail, but couldn't get it to look good. So at the end they settled for the current effect. Or it might even be in "33" or "Miniseries" podcast. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:39, 2 January 2007 (CST)

:::::It was from the miniseries DVD commentary, I believe. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:00, 2 January 2007 (CST)

== 'What happened in "Scattered"' section ==

I've just deleted the entire "What happened in Scattered" section, as it was [[BW:FANW|fanwanking]]. [[User:Whalepelt|Whalepelt]] 20:14, 28 February 2007 (CST)
:I disagree. I think this still falls under derived content. It's more speculative than most articles, but in line with some others, especially in the science section. But it's not made-up outright, nor does it try to explain away inexplicable plotholes (which is what fanwanking is for me). Most it was deduction from a few lines in the episode (like needing to make new starfixes, and the relaying of the jump coordinates), together with some other FTL facts we know, like the need for computations and the concept of a [[blind jump]]. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:30, 1 March 2007 (CST)
::I {{support}} the deletion. I'm a big proponent of the science pages (having authored most of them), but as I re-read this section, I realized that there isn't any episode sourcing for the piece, however well-thought out. This section is truly fanwank; to be derived content, it has to know the procedures (not just supposed technical mechanics) of FTL navigation as explained in the show, and that hasn't been detailed in any episode at this time. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:10, 1 March 2007 (CST)
:::There are snippets of dialogue to back it up. There is the conversation between Saul and Ellen Tigh (referenced in the text), where he explains the basics. And there it's also said that jump plots are continually updated and that Gaeta forgot to send the new ones. So what happened? Something like a blind jump. They had a jump plot, but a wrong one and ended up in a random place unknown to ''Galactica''. We know that such jumps are possible, but they are unpredictable; exactly what happened here. Yeah, it could be sourced better, but the explanation doesn't come out of thin air. The last paragraph is pure speculation and not explained in the episode either, but it's the only possible explanation for what happened. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:30, 1 March 2007 (CST)
::::I see your point, although I don't think I can quantify it. Could you readd the relevant parts with supporting sources? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:45, 1 March 2007 (CST)
:::::Done, and it's better than before. I put the Tigh quote in a footnote, and made a clearer reference to blind jumps. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:37, 1 March 2007 (CST)
:::::I'm cool with it. Nice work! --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:02, 1 March 2007 (CST)

== FTL jump calculations ==
*Elevation
*Rotation
*Distance

"Here, the dimension of distance would represent more than just a straight line, plotted through three-dimensional space but the amount of space curvature that the jump drive would have to fold."

Not true, they can just be [[w:Spherical_coordinate_system|Spherical coordinates]], which draws a line of length r (note the similar notation to radius), but with a specific orientation in space depending the angles θ and φ. No special space-folding math here.--[[User:DuMan|DuMan]] 16:28, 30 June 2007 (CDT)
:Mhh, true. Guess we can just change this to general coordinates, and say that they could be either cartesian or spherical. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:41, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

== No credit! ==

I went to ''all that trouble'' of witing about and calculating the time dilation, an addition that I originally made at [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] over a year ago, but now I find it on this page, and I am not in either page's edit history! What's up with that? I thought this was cc-''by''-sa. Where is my frakkin' credit?!! --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 05:26, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

:Oh, I guess I am still in the edit history at [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]]. I missed it. Anyway, wasn't really mad about it; just was looking for the time dilation info and couldn't find it on that page. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 05:30, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

::Your contributions were probably moved over to this article when the original science article was split over several pages because it became too long and about too many topics (at least I think that's what happened). But technically we don't have page ownership here ;( --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:38, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
::Right, no page ownership, but attribution is required by the license. An editor's work is released to BSG wiki under the cc license, and BSG wiki releases it to others in the same way. But it doesn't matter, I was just making a big deal about it because I couldn't find the text when I wanted to. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 07:03, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Navigation in the Re-imagined Series/Archive 1

2007-08-26T10:30:35Z

Bp: /* No credit! */

Talk:Navigation in the Re-imagined Series/Archive 1

2007-08-26T10:26:46Z

Bp: No credit!

Talk:Muffit/Archive 1

2007-08-26T09:23:41Z

Bp:

This costume was sold with other items from original BSG in the ''Profiles in History Hollywood Auction #21'' on April 1, 2005.

Here is the description directly from the auction catalog:

:412. ORIGINAL HERO WORKING DAGGIT FROM BATTLESTAR GALACTICA. (ABC-TV, 1978-79) Muffit, the Daggit who replaced Boxey’s live pet who was killed in the Cylon attack on Caprica, was played by a monkey who wore this specially-designed suit and helmet and interacted with the characters on the set, as the plot required. The costume is fitted with servos to animate the ears and mouth (the ears spin, and the mouth opens and closes) so that the Daggit would appear life-like on-screen. The tail is made of a heavy-gauge spring, so that the tail would bounce while the monkey walked about the set. For shots that did not require much movement, the production crew inserted a custom articulated form into the costume, so that the Daggit could remain stationary during long takes. This exceptional working prop – the only known surviving Daggit costume – was constructed by John Dykstra and his associates at Apogee Effects. It remains complete with working electronics, which operate via the original wireless remote control. This amazing piece has been in the hands of private collectors since the series ended, and has never before been seen in public. Truly a wonderful relic from this popular science-fiction series, it remains wholly intact and functional, and is one of the finest surviving original props from Battlestar Galactica that we’ve ever encountered. Comes with the original comb used on the set to groom the costume. (estimate: $15,000 – $20,000)

They alos sold the [[Imperious Leader]]'s chair, a Viper pilot helmet, and the Eastern Alliance cruiser studio model in that auction. You can get a PDF version of the catalog, and see the great pictures of the items at [http://www.profilesinhistory.com/catalogs/hollywoodMemorabilia.asp]. Anyway, lots of great background info in there, if you're into that. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 20:57, 25 August 2007 (CDT)

: Nice! Definitely worth adding! Also, is it my imagination, or are Hollywood film and prop auctions becoming very popular as of late? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] - [http://www.sanctuarywiki.org Sanctuary Wiki — ''New''] 23:58, 25 August 2007 (CDT)

::Profiles has a few of these every year, and there is almost always some Trek and BSG. Christie's has about one per year, and they had that huge ''40 Years'' Trek auction last October. For the last 37 weeks there have been about 100-150 Trek items every week on ebay from It's a Wrap, over 4000 so far. Paramount is dumping the whole warehouse. Anyway, for BSG, there was a TOS Cylon costume in sale #23. It sold for $25k. In the same sale, a TOS Viper filming model and TOS Cylon raider filming model, together as one lot. Those went for $55k. And then there was a TOS [[Sixth-millennium starfighter|model-T viper]] model from "The Long Patrol" that sold for $10k. All very cool. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 04:23, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Muffit/Archive 1

2007-08-26T01:57:21Z

Bp: robot daggit costume sold at auction

Talk:Atlantia/Archive 1

2007-05-24T01:47:58Z

Bp: Are we sure on the name?

Spencerian wrote:
:''What is the source for designation as "flagship" in RDM?)''
Admiral Nagala was commanding the fleet from Atlantia. Since he was the ranking flag officer, Atlantia was his flagship. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:43, 27 December 2005 (EST)

==History==
How can Atlantia be old enough that a young Adama made his thousandth landing there, and new enough to serve as Nagala's flagship during the Cylon attack? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:12, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:Answer is simple: How could the USS Missouri be old enough to be a veteran of World War II, yet still be used for combat in the First Persian Gulf War? There were 12 original battlestars; it was never said that they were "decommissioned"; Galactica is "the last of her kind"....in that she was never given an extensive refit/update. Possibly all of the original 12 battlestars could still have been in service, including Atlantia, but they were giving full overhauls and their hulls refitted with modern technology and ''networked computers''. The USS Missouri was put through ''extensive'' refits to modernize its internal machinery; it had laser-guided cruise-missiles for PGW I. I mean there's precedence of this kind of thing in the real world. The difference with Galactica is that it was never significantly refitted or overhauled (presumbably, sliding automatic doors, cordless telephones, etc. were put into Atlantia during a refit, as Doral points out that these aren't on other battlestars anymore). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:42, 8 January 2006 (EST)
::I agree with Ricimer, although nowhere in any information I've found indicate that all 12 original battlestars ''survived'' the first war. The flagship Atlantia could be a modern replacement, as with many of the battlestars we hear of with the same names. Like the original USS Enterprise in "Star Trek", ''Galactica'' may be one of the few (if not only) original battlestar to survive fully intact after her original tour. We just don't know, but that's a logical assumption, especially in light of her conversion into a museum, an honor for any ship of distinction. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 18:52, 8 January 2006 (EST)

==TOS Atlantia blowing up==
I've got a pretty good capture of ''Atlantia'' blowing up, but all it amounts to is a side view of a battlestar with some explosion effects superimposed. If somebody thinks it is worthwhile I could upload it and add it here (or to the [[Battle of Cimtar]]). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:12, 10 January 2006 (EST)

:Sounds good to me; there could almost never be enough pictures of explosions here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:21, 10 January 2006 (EST)

== Which way round? ==
At the moment we have the RMD story before the TOS. Shouldn't it be the other way round chronologically. Alternatively perhaps there should be a separate page for each. --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 11:43, 13 March 2006 (CST)

:One ship was mentioned-only (RDM) and the second is seen (TOS). The two should have their own articles. That way, the TOS ship can have a ship data template since we know some information on TOS ''Atlantia'''s configuration. The RDM ''Atlantia'' should have a mentioned-only page, no template (we have no idea what kind of battlestar this was, or if there were more classes than what has been shown). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:25, 19 May 2006 (CDT)

== Are we sure on the name? ==

Some new evidence suggests that it is really called Battlestar Atlantis --> [http://bp0.blogger.com/_bu0vVgPPyEs/RlO6rlZlUZI/AAAAAAAADV0/sO2mdLKhDbY/s1600-h/DSC05309.JPG]. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 20:47, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

Template talk:POV Real

2007-01-16T05:12:28Z

Bp: New page: Hey, I created the MA real world template after I got the idea from Wookieepedia's "era icons" like the ones in [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anakin_Skywalker this article]. I once tried...

Hey, I created the MA real world template after I got the idea from Wookieepedia's "era icons" like the ones in [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anakin_Skywalker this article]. I once tried to make an icon system at MA where real, featured, shortcut, policy, and whatever else, would all be integrated in a system and then articles would have a template call like <nowiki>{{icons|featured|real}}</nowiki>. The idea was never accepted. The biggest problem was with long titles.

Anyway, maybe you could also add an RDM or TOS icon to it. The other thing is that it doesnt work in BsgMonoBook skin, but at least there is a toolbar now! Thanks to whoever got that working. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 23:12, 15 January 2007 (CST)

User talk:Bp

2007-01-09T03:39:04Z

Bp: /* Recent Rollback */

== Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! ==

Welcome to the Wiki, Bp. Feel free to tell us about yourself on [[User:Bp|your user page]]. Before you get started on other edits, please read the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]], which details the policies we use in editing pages (this differs from many other wikis in consistent use of phrasing, abbreviations, format, and the like).

Also, if you have any questions or suggestions you wish to offer, please feel free to do so either on your user talk page, the [[Battlestar Wiki:Wikipedian Quorum|Wikipedian Quorum]] or [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Administrators' noticeboard]]. Remember to sign your posts on any talk pages using four tildes (~~~~)! We look forward to your contributions to the community! -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 00:08, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Rank/Role ==

We usually don't add it to a template because it might change expect Character templates (As I just checked..). We seem to only list it in mostly in Episode Guides. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:15, 22 March 2006 (CST)
:Alright. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 00:27, 22 March 2006 (CST)

== "Science" contribution ==

Hi, Bp. I really liked the time dilation addition to the [[Science in the Re-imagined Series]] article, an article I created and was hoping for others to pile on. Your stuff fits right in. Nice job! --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:09, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

:Thanks. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 05:54, 21 April 2006 (CDT)

== I've got a problem! Please notice this in the RC! ==

Hey, I couldn't figure out where you are supposed to post problems with the wiki, so I'm putting this here so that someone will find it in the RC.

The problem: I don't get any editing toolbar when I use the BsgMonoBook skin. I wish I could sign this comment with a click, but I've got no toolbar!! So I have to do it manually: [[User:Bp|Bp]] 15:46, 1 January 2007 (CST)

: Typically the [[Battlestar Wiki: Wikipedian Quorum]] or even the [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard]]. We're on it, thanks Bp! Also, the bottom toolbox has the signature syntax that can be clicked on as well. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 15:50, 1 January 2007 (CST)

::Gah! I knew that, and the link was right in front of me also, I missed it. Well, Thanks. [[User:Bp|Bp]] 16:07, 1 January 2007 (CST)

== Recent Rollback ==

Hi, BP. I rolled back your last contribution to [[Baltar as Cylon speculation]]. We can't trust commercials; despite the probability that Baltar ''is'' a Cylon, it is not a certainty. The commercials show things intentionally out-of-context to entice us to watch. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:13, 8 January 2007 (CST)

:Hmm, maybe. But on a page that's all about speculation anyway, I don't see why it shouldn't be included, even with the caveat you mentioned. Anyway, It's ok. Oh, I still don't have a toolbar in the monobook skin. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 21:20, 8 January 2007 (CST)

::That's a Mediawiki problem. http://blog.battlestarwiki.org/2007/01/04/where-in-the-world-is-the-toolbar/ [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:34, 8 January 2007 (CST)

:::IC. thanks. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 21:39, 8 January 2007 (CST)

User talk:Bp

2007-01-09T03:20:02Z

Bp: /* Recent Rollback */ re

Baltar as Cylon speculation

2007-01-09T02:46:25Z

Bp: BSG commercial says baltar is a cylon

:''This extended speculation thread discusses the probability of [[Gaius Baltar]] as a [[Cylon agent]]. This article is a special extension from the [[Cylon agent speculation#Gaius Baltar?|Cylon agent speculation]] article.''

For '''[[Gaius Baltar]]''' to survive the destruction of Caprica was no small matter, especially considering he was in the wake a nuclear shock wave and that the body of Six that he knew was apparently destroyed in trying to protect him in the events of the [[Miniseries, Night 1]].

A nuclear blast's shock wave is substantial (not unlike that from a [[Wikipedia:Pyroclastic flow|pyroclastic cloud]]). The shock wave would contain rocks, glass, metal, and other large debris that would bludgeon, pierce and lacerate human tissue with ease and at terrific speeds (at maximum, 1200 KPH, or 745 MPH). Such a debris-filled shock wave would obliterate Baltar's home and easily annihilate Six's body, which at those speeds would provide essentially no protection to Baltar's. (For comparison, note that, despite his superior strength, the head of the first [[Leoben Conoy]] copy encountered was bludgeoned by Commander Adama with a flashlight, and many other Cylon agent copies have been shot or killed as easily as a human.) However, it has to be kept in mind that the blast wave had dissipated greatly by the time it had reached Baltar's house some 26 seconds after the detonation that almost blinded him, probably no more than hurricane force, a wind speed of 74 mph. There are testimonies from Hiroshima and Nagasaki survivors, two Japanese cities that were struck with nuclear bombs at the end of World War II, being in buildings and even in trams quite close to the epicentre and coming out of the ordeal surprisingly unharmed save for a few scratches.

Even if Baltar survived momentarily from Six's protection, either the remains of his home would have collapsed over him, likely trapping him if not killing him, or he and Six's body would also be carried away by the shock wave for some distance. Could the Baltar on ''Galactica'' be now, in fact, a Cylon agent?

==The "Many Copies" Theory==
Cylon agents are designed to be archetypes of human psyche. Biologically, Cylon agents are not and have never been actual humans.

One notable question would be ''why'' Six has spent so much time talking to Baltar and then thrown herself in front of the blast if she'd intended for him to die? If Baltar was already a Cylon agent, his consciousness from that moment would be thrown into a waking duplicate, already disheveled and scraped, where Baltar would merely think he was blown clear to safety where he could run to escape attacks with other survivors. Also, since Baltar appeared to be key in many Cylon plans, they would want to ensure that Baltar would reach any remaining humans to spy for them, and having only one copy might risk the success of such plans. Further, it is the ''psyche'' of Baltar that the Cylons may treasure most; few others in the Colonies may have the level of intelligence, arrogance, and neurosis that Baltar has that could prove as easily exploitable. The guise of the great Baltar gives the Cylons a huge natural tactical advantage in that he is well known and allowed access to almost any critical battlestar location. Baltar's slick-as-oil personality aids him with better finesse and stronger charisma than any Cylon agent personality yet seen.

Later events in the series appear to discount this notion of an elaborate plan to save Baltar. In "[[Downloaded]]", the Cylons are unaware that Baltar had survived, having received this information from the resurrected [[Sharon Valerii]].

==The Baltar-as-Father Argument==

Six has stated her desire to have a child with Baltar. Cylon agent couplings have failed to result in offspring prior to that point ([[The Farm]]). If Baltar and Six were both Cylon agents, it is likely that offspring would either be impossible or at least exceptionally unlikely. This point gives evidence against the Baltar-as-Cylon theory, but Six has repeatedly made it clear that she considers the hybrid human-cylon baby that Sharon is carrying to be "our" (as she puts it) baby. "Our" may in fact be inclusive of all cylons, which may just include Baltar.

In "[[Home, Part II]]", the virtual Six indicates that Baltar's and Six's child will be born in the isolation cage built for the [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|''Galactica'' copy of Sharon Valerii]]. The reality turned out different: The Caprica version of Valerii, pregnant by [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], now occupies the cage by the end of that episode, and virtual Six indicates that it is in fact '''Valerii's''' child that will become Baltar's. This gives some weight to the Baltar-as-Cylon theory since Baltar becoming a father by surrogate circumvents the need for him to do so naturally. While Caprica-Valerii shows that a female Cylon agent could conceive, no information is yet available on whether male Cylon agents could sire a child with human females. However, earlier in the first season, in "[[33]]", Six asked Baltar if he wanted to procreate with her, and at this point she may have meant an actual child of Baltar's. "Home, Part II" occurred much later in the timeline, and it is possible that the Cylons and Number Six had to alter their plans during this time. Number Six did mention in "Home, Part II" that she didn't consider Sharon "worthy" of bearing one of "God's new children" (the Cylon agents). Perhaps Sharon was not originally planned to be the first mother of a hybrid baby at all, and Number Six was going to have a child with the (necessarily human) Baltar, but had to shift plans when Boomer became pregnant first.

With the actual consciousness of the Cylon known as [[Caprica-Six]] returned (now with a [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations|virtual ''Gaius Baltar'']] that haunts her), the credibilty of the virtual Six, and her connection to some elaborate Cylon plan for procreation with Baltar, is specious at best.

==Inside Baltar's Head==

Baltar's brain scan in "[[Home, Part II]]" confirms that the virtual Six that only Baltar can see is '''not''' an actual ''artificial'' device in his brain. This leaves a number of possibilities, of which the strongest are:

# Baltar has a device elsewhere in his body. We're not given information on whether ''all'' of Baltar's body was scanned, or just his head.
# A portion of Baltar's body ''is'' the "chip" but fashioned in a way by the Cylons that is medically indistinguishable from a regular body part and may also function normally (say, a pituitary gland)
# Baltar's body is artificial, with his personality (complete with neuroses) placed in a Cylon agent construct. While Baltar's psyche itself may not be that of a Cylon, the addition of the virtual Six component compliments the arrangement for the Cylon's purposes.

Possibility #3 is interesting in that, based on Baltar's own research on the Six copy known as [[Gina]], Baltar's personality and guilt would continue to plague him either in Cylon agent or human form. But, if Baltar were reconstructed as a Cylon, the virtual Six aids Baltar by being, in effect, the conscience and "guardian angel" she claims to be, keeping his neuroses and guilt over the genocide from driving him completely insane--for now.

The episode "[[Torn]]" introduces the Cylon ability known as [[projection]]. This ability allows a Cylon to visualize a pleasing environment that also makes it easier to make their way through a basestar's corridors. At this point, Baltar, recalling the many times where he and his virtual Six have enjoyed time at his home in a mannery similar to projection, begins to question his own nature.

==But Cylons aren't human clones==

As Cylons aren't copies of humans, this would suggest either of two possibilities for Baltar: first, that he survived the blast and escaped, or second, that Baltar was a Cylon all along, even on Caprica.

The idea of Baltar being originally a Cylon has problems, however. If Baltar were a Cylon, it would be redundant and unnecessary for Number Six to "choose him" for her mission (unless the Cylons preferred Baltar to remain a "sleeper" throughout his mission to give "plausible deniability" in his mind as well as allow him to do what his personality is likely to do). Furthermore, from a story perspective, the idea of Baltar being a Cylon very much goes against the idea of Baltar as a traitor betraying humanity to the Cylons—as well as the idea of Baltar's relationship with Six being a true human/Cylon pairing. It should be noted, however, that Ron D. Moore's "Gaius Baltar" differs significantly from the [[Baltar (TOS)|"Baltar" of the Original Series]]. The Baltar of the Original Series was a true turncoat with megalomaniacal tendencies; Gaius, on the other hand, is not power-hungry but is driven by a strong sense of self, albeit to the exclusion and ignorance of the needs of everyone else.

Gaius is often treated by Six as a human--ultimately the only human who will be allowed to survive by the Cylons. But the human models of Cylon also behave with classically human qualities (not all of them perfect or utopian) and seem to see each other in varying emotions (admiration and contempt are prevalent when Six speaks of the pregnant Caprica Valerii). So, at the least, Gaius is treated with no less respect than any other Cylon agent by his virtual Six. If we assume Gaius is indeed human, Six's interaction with Baltar (given the hostilities of the Cylons) borders on admiration. Although we can't necessarily use Six's emotions as a ''de facto'' gauge of Baltar's genuine humanity, it does lend to the mystery.

The storyline possibilities do change somewhat if Baltar has ''always'' been a Cylon. Note that Baltar has never spoken of his family or other friends (other than President [[Richard Adar|Adar]]), strongly suggesting Baltar has been a "loner." If Baltar's parentage (or offspring--he is rather promiscuous) cannot be confirmed (as has been done with Commander Adama, also on the list of suspects), then the laws of physics (nuclear shock wave damage to human tissue) as well as the laws of procreation (Cylons can't quite procreate as humans do) continue to leave open the possibility that Baltar is model of Cylon, however reduced the odds are now, based on Moore's new information.

==Events from the episode "Downloaded"==

The episode "[[Downloaded]]" contains revelations that reduced the possibility that Baltar is a Cylon. In dialogue with each other, numerous Cylon characters distinctly refer to Baltar as human. Although it is possible that they might keep the information from Baltar, the nature of the Cylon thought collective would seem to make no sense to keep it a secret to each other. In addition, this episode introduced the unique idea of a Number Six copy with a virtual ''Baltar'' in her head. Through Six, Baltar pushes for the Cylons to be more human; for example, letting [[Samuel Anders]] go free despite his destruction of a building and many other Cylon agents. If Baltar were a Cylon, the events in the episode would make little sense.

The events in "[[Torn]]" all but toss the revelations of "Downloaded" on its ear, as the series writers directly tackle the Baltar-is-Cylon question in a story arc in season three.

=="Torn" renews speculation==

The episode "[[Torn]]" meanwhile contains certain revelations about the nature of the Cylons and some possible hints about Baltar's nature. While guiding Baltar through the interior of the basestar, Caprica-Six reveals the Cylon process of "[[projection]]"; the Cylon's ability to alter their perceptions and create a simulated reality of their choosing. Baltar immediately notices how similar that seems to his own visions of Six and begins to question if he is a Cylon because he can project as well. The question still remains, if he possibly is a Cylon, why do the other Cylons think he is a human?

When Baltar questions why he has seen only seven humanoid agents, despite the point that twelve Cylon agents exist, Caprica-Six is unwilling to answer. Apparently the Cylons have blocked or have lost all knowledge of the these five remaining agents. A [[Number Three]] copy, obsessed with regaining the knowledge, commits suicide to see visions of the so called "[[final five]]," but cannot remember what they look like when she regains consciousness after downloading, despite attempts to sketch her interpretations of them in order to retain her memory of them ([[The Passage]]). This could possibly answer the question why Baltar wouldn't be recognized by the other seven if he was one of the final five.

When the Cylons learn of the [[Eye of Jupiter]], they attempt to negotiate for it with the Colonials at the [[algae planet]] the home of the mysterious [[Temple of Five]]. While the Colonials believe the Temple of Five was dedicated to five human priests, Three and Gaius Baltar wonder if the temple (and the Eye) represent something about the five lost Cylon agents ([[The Eye of Jupiter]]).

==Baltar as an "Agent of God"==
Baltar's actions when forced by his virtual Six to repent and worship the Cylon version of [[God]] leaves several significant questions as to the nature of both the virtual Six and Baltar's nature.

In the episode, "[[The Hand of God]]", Baltar makes an educated guess at the specific target to be destroyed on the [[tylium]] refinery without knowing any significant data on the site. Baltar only receives encouragement from his virtual Six to trust in her belief. In "[[Six Degrees of Separation]]," viewers see a stricken and nearly-criminally exposed Baltar repent to the virtual Six just as Lt. Gaeta arrives to confirm his innocence. In the same episode, the virtual Six disappears in anger just as the [[Shelly Godfrey]] copy arrives (with a suggestion that the virtual Six ''knew'' (or summoned) the Godfrey model to arrive. The Godfrey model disappears just as the virtual Six returns as Baltar is repenting.

The episode "[[Downloaded]]" strongly suggests that the virtual copies of [[Caprica Six]] and Baltar that [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations|haunt their opposite interests]] seem to be psychological remnants of the pair's intensive emotional connection. But what if there is more to this than psychology? Episode events surrounding the [[Sacred Scrolls]] and Laura Roslin's quest for the [[Tomb of Athena]] confirm that the Colonials have a spiritual or prophetic element that has guided them to the data that now places them in a true general path to Earth. What forces are driving Baltar beyond his own egotism? What is the nature of the virtual Six and Baltar? Neither Baltar nor Caprica Six know why they appear, and both virtual beings appear to have knowledge beyond that of what the living being they haunt should know. If Baltar is being influenced by the Cylon God (or some cybernetic influence known by neither Cylon or Colonial), there suggests a new thread to the Baltar-as-Cylon speculation that goes beyond the mere creation of a Baltar model. However, in the [[Podcast:Downloaded|episode's podcast]], Ron Moore speaks of the virtual Baltar as simply a hallucination, while in other interviews and podcasts, Moore consistently states that the origin of the virtual Six is supposed to be deliberately vague.

== BSG commecial ==
In a January 8th commercial for BSG, the voice-over says the line: "One of them will realize they are a Cylon", while Baltar is on screen. He is the only character shown that is suspected of being a Cylon and is not known to be one.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

User:Bp

2007-01-01T22:58:23Z

Bp: ma user page

Best Episode: [[Resurrection Ship, Part II]].

I'm over [[memoryalpha:User:Bp|here]].

Samuel Witwer

2007-01-01T22:39:56Z

Bp:

{{Star Data|
image= CrashdownKobolGleaming.jpg
| character= [[Crashdown|Alex "Crashdown" Quartararo]]
| dob= 20 October 1977
| nationality= US
| imdb= 1022429
}}
'''Samuel Witwer''' is an American actor. He is also a [[Wikipedia:Star Trek|Star Trek]] alumnus: he appeared as an unnamed Xindi-Sloth in the ''Star Trek: Enterprise'' season 3 episode, "The Shipment". He has also appeared on ''ER'', and on ''Dark Angel'' as Marrow, which would have become a recurring role if the series had not been canceled.

According to an [http://www.mediablvd.com/magazine/Magazine-Home/MBMag_20060420133.html interview in MediaBlvd], Witwer was willing to leave the show of his own accord because of other work possibilities in Los Angeles. Currently, he is producing, writing, and directing an independant film, and hopes that several other ''Battlestar Galactica'' cast members might be able to make cameos. Sam is also close friends with [[Nicki Clyne]], and they often get together with friends for movie nights.

Sam was a big fan of ''Star Trek: The Next Generation'' as a child, and went on a tour of the set. The tour guide took him and his brother to meet Wil Wheaton (Wesley Crusher), who was studying in his trailer. Sam said Wil "talked to us for 30 minutes, while the rest of the tour group just sat by and patiently waited. That experience put it in my head that I wanted to be an actor". Witwer remained a fan of ''Star Trek'' and appeared on "''Enterprise''" as a Xindi-Sloth because he asked his agent to find a role for him on ''Star Trek'', and as an unpleasant result Witwer said that "I’m affectionately referred to, by my other friends that work on Star Trek, as Sam the Sloth, which totally sucks."

Witwer's true passion is his band, the ''Crashtones''; it's actually a one-man band with Witwer performing all of the instruments and vocals. Witwer dresses up in costume as various fictitious other members of the "band", who appear on the cover of "their" albums.

==External links==
*[http://samwitwer.com/ The Crashtones]
{{ext-ma}}

{{stub}}

[[Category:A to Z|Witwer, Samuel]]
[[Category:Cast|Witwer, Samuel]]
[[Category:Cast (RDM)|Witwer, Samuel]]
[[Category:Former Star Trek Cast and Crew|Witwer, Samuel]]
[[Category:RDM|Witwer, Samuel]]

Bruce Wright

2007-01-01T22:39:36Z

Bp: + ma link

{{Star Data
| image= Lomas.jpg
| character=[[Lomas]], other ''[[Galactica (TOS)|Galactica]]'' crew
| dob=
| nationality= {{flag|US}}
| death=
| imdb= 0942257
}}

'''Bruce Wright''' is an American ({{flag|US}}) actor.

He is responsible for potraying bit-parts in the series, including various ''[[Galactica (TOS)|Galactica]]'' personnel. His only named character was Corporal [[Lomas]], who appeared in "[[The Man with Nine Lives]]".

He has also appeared in ''[[Galactica 1980]]'' as an aide in "[[Galactica Discovers Earth, Part II]]".

== External links ==
{{ext-ma}}

{{stub}}

[[Category:A to Z|Wright, Bruce]]
[[Category:Cast|Wright, Bruce]]
[[Category:Crew|Wright, Bruce]]
[[Category:TOS|Wright, Bruce]]

John Colicos

2007-01-01T22:37:05Z

Bp: +ma link

{{Star Data|
image = John_Colicos.jpg
| character= [[Baltar (TOS)|Lord Baltar]]
| dob=10 December 1928
| nationality= CA
| death=6 March 2000
| imdb= 0171475
}}
'''John Colicos''' (b. December 10, 1928, Toronto, d. March 6, 2000, Toronto) played the traitorous [[Baltar (TOS)|Lord Baltar]] in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original "Battlestar Galactica" series]].

Before ''Battlestar'', John Colicos was well known in the science fiction community in his role as Commander Kor, the first Klingon seen in the original series of ''[[Wikipedia:Star Trek|Star Trek]].'' The character of Kor was reprised in the third ''Star Trek'' series, ''Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'' for three episodes: "Blood Oath", "The Sword of Kahless", and "Once More Unto the Breach".

Colicos, like Canadian-born actor [[Wikipedia:William Shatner|William Shatner]], was a Canadian and a well-received Shakespearian actor. Colicos is also well known as Dr. Mikkos Cassadine from "General Hospital".

Colicos' final acting appearance was his reprise of Baltar in the mock trailer ''[[Battlestar Galactica: The Second Coming]]'', aired at many science fiction conventions in 1999.

Colicos was married to Mona McHenry from 1956 to 1981, when they divorced. They have two children, one of them actor Nicholas Colicos.

== Quotes ==
Describing his acting philosophy: "When all else fails, be enigmatic."

== External links ==
{{imdb name|id=0171475|name=John Colicos}}
{{ext-ma}}
[[Category:A to Z|Colicos, John]]
[[Category:Cast|Colicos, John]]
[[Category:Cast (TOS)|Colicos, John]]
[[Category:TOS|Colicos, John]]

User talk:Bp

2007-01-01T22:07:54Z

Bp: /* I've got a problem! Please notice this in the RC! */

User talk:Bp

2007-01-01T21:46:55Z

Bp: I've got a problem! Please notice this in the RC!

Category talk:External Link Templates

2007-01-01T21:39:30Z

Bp:

These templates should have the "*" (list item specifier) removed, and inserted before the template call in the articles. The reason is that it breaks up the <nowiki><ul></nowiki> in the generated html, which does two things. First, it creates little inconsitenceies in the spacing of items in the list, and secondly, it breaks the structure of the list for anything that might want to crawl through it, like a script. It also looks better in the wiki source code, in my opinion, to have the all the "*" for the list visible. I think I may have started this <nowiki><li></nowiki>-in-template practice here, that I am now saying should be eliminated, sorry about that. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 15:38, 1 January 2007 (CST)

Category talk:External Link Templates

2007-01-01T21:38:48Z

Bp: removing the *

These templates should have the "*" (list item specifier) removed, and inserted before the template call in the articles. The reason is that it breaks up the <ul> in the generated html, which does two things. First, it creates little inconsitenceies in the spacing of items in the list, and secondly, it breaks the structure of the list for anything that might want to crawl through it, like a script. It also looks better in the wiki source code, in my opinion, to have the all the "*" for the list visible. I think I may have started this <li>-in-template practice here, that I am now saying should be eliminated, sorry about that. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 15:38, 1 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:Gabriel Köerner/Archive 1

2006-12-29T23:13:58Z

Bp:

Where/how did you find all this out? Cool. Just curious. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:29, 22 May 2006 (CDT)
:Much of this is from his official site. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 02:48, 22 May 2006 (CDT)

== Image messed up? ==

It seems that there is a problem with the image that Mercifull added. "Error creating thumbnail: sh: /home/bsgwiki/w/bin/ulimit-tvf.sh: /bin/bash : bad interpreter: No such file or directory" --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 17:13, 29 December 2006 (CST)

Talk:Gabriel Köerner/Archive 1

2006-12-29T23:13:44Z

Bp: Image mesed up?

Where/how did you find all this out? Cool. Just curious. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:29, 22 May 2006 (CDT)
:Much of this is from his official site. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 02:48, 22 May 2006 (CDT)

== Image mesed up? ==

It seems that there is a problem with the image that Mercifull added. "Error creating thumbnail: sh: /home/bsgwiki/w/bin/ulimit-tvf.sh: /bin/bash : bad interpreter: No such file or directory" --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 17:13, 29 December 2006 (CST)

Gabriel Köerner

2006-12-29T21:56:22Z

Bp: Gabriel Köerner is an rd at MA

{{Crew Data
| image=Koerner-2005.jpg
| role=Special Effects
| series=[[RDM]]
| dob=14 June 1982
| nationality=US
| death=
| imdb=0462933
}}
'''Gabriel Köerner''' is a visual effects artist for the [[Re-imagined]] series of Battlestar Galactica.

Köerner appeared at the age of fifteen in the documentary ''[[Wikipedia:Trekkies|Trekkies]]'', working on visual effects for a ''[[Wikipedia:Star Trek|Star Trek]]'' fan film.

In 2003, Köerner, while working at [[Zoic]], contributed a number of models for the new ''Battlestar Galactica'' [[Miniseries]]. His credits include:

*[[Viper Mark II|Viper Mk. II]] exterior (model and textures)
*Viper Mk. II interior
*''Galactica'' hangar interior matte
*The ''[[Gemenon Traveler]]''/''[[Kimba Huta]]'' type transport.
*The [[Space Park]]
*The [[Intersun Passenger Cruiser]]

In 2005, Köerner contributed the CGI model of the ''[[MemoryAlpha:Enterprise-D|Enterprise-D]]'' seen in the last scene of the ''[[MemoryAlpha:Star Trek: Enterprise|Star Trek: Enterprise]]'' series finale, "[[MemoryAlpha:These Are the Voyages...|These Are the Voyages...]]". <ref name="trekweb">{{cite web|url=http://trekweb.com/stbbs/showThread.php?bid=r8yhsW3AaKqzE&tid=427fdff21fc98&cid=427fdff224a0f&viewby=&sort=&order=&numReplies=22#427fdff224a0f|title=Post to TrekWeb.com|accessdate=2006-08-24|date=2006-05-09}}</ref>

==External Links==
*[http://gabekoerner.com/fx/splash.htm Professional site]
*[http://gabekoerner.com/personal/index.htm Personal site]
*[[Wikipedia:Gabriel Köerner|Biography]] at [http://en.wikipedia.org Wikipedia]
{{ext-ma|article=Gabriel Koerner}}
*[[IMDB:nm0462933|Filmography]] at [http://www.imdb.com IMDB]

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{stub}}

[[Category:A to Z|Köerner, Gabriel]]
[[Category:Behind the Scenes|Köerner, Gabriel]]
[[Category:Crew|Köerner, Gabriel]]
[[Category:RDM|Köerner, Gabriel]]
[[Category: Former Star Trek Cast and Crew|Köerner, Gabriel]]

Gabriel Köerner

2006-12-29T10:02:39Z

Bp: /* External Links */ ma link

{{Crew Data
| image=
| role=Special Effects
| series=[[RDM]]
| dob=14 June 1982
| nationality=US
| death=
| imdb=0462933
}}
'''Gabriel Köerner''' is a visual effects artist for the [[Re-imagined]] series of Battlestar Galactica.

Köerner appeared at the age of fifteen in the documentary ''[[Wikipedia:Trekkies|Trekkies]]'', working on visual effects for a ''[[Wikipedia:Star Trek|Star Trek]]'' fan film.

In 2003, Köerner, while working at [[Zoic]], contributed a number of models for the new ''Battlestar Galactica'' [[Miniseries]]. His credits include:

*[[Viper Mark II|Viper Mk. II]] exterior (model and textures)
*Viper Mk. II interior
*''Galactica'' hangar interior matte
*The ''[[Gemenon Traveler]]''/''[[Kimba Huta]]'' type transport.
*The [[Space Park]]
*The [[Intersun Passenger Cruiser]]

In 2005, Köerner contributed the CGI model of the ''[[MemoryAlpha:Enterprise-D|Enterprise-D]]'' seen in the last scene of the ''[[MemoryAlpha:Star Trek: Enterprise|Star Trek: Enterprise]]'' series finale, "[[MemoryAlpha:These Are the Voyages...|These Are the Voyages...]]". <ref name="trekweb">{{cite web|url=http://trekweb.com/stbbs/showThread.php?bid=r8yhsW3AaKqzE&tid=427fdff21fc98&cid=427fdff224a0f&viewby=&sort=&order=&numReplies=22#427fdff224a0f|title=Post to TrekWeb.com|accessdate=2006-08-24|date=2006-05-09}}</ref>

==External Links==
*[http://gabekoerner.com/fx/splash.htm Professional site]
*[http://gabekoerner.com/personal/index.htm Personal site]
*[[Wikipedia:Gabriel Köerner|Biography]] at [http://en.wikipedia.org Wikipedia]
*{{ext-ma}}
*[[IMDB:nm0462933|Filmography]] at [http://www.imdb.com IMDB]

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{stub}}

[[Category:A to Z|Köerner, Gabriel]]
[[Category:Behind the Scenes|Köerner, Gabriel]]
[[Category:Crew|Köerner, Gabriel]]
[[Category:RDM|Köerner, Gabriel]]
[[Category: Former Star Trek Cast and Crew|Köerner, Gabriel]]

Gabriel Koerner

2006-12-29T10:02:24Z

Bp: for people who can't type thos queer foreign Oes

#REDIRECT [[Gabriel Köerner]]

References in the Re-imagined Series

2006-12-20T07:44:16Z

Bp: /* Collaborators */

{{BSG references series}}
{{cleanup}}
== [[Miniseries]] ==

=== References to [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|the original Battlestar Galactica series]] ===
[[Image:Bsgmuseumlight4xn1.JPG|thumb|right|Galactica Museum ([[Miniseries]])]]
*The Cylon design the [[Armistice Officer]] is looking at in the beginning, and the [[Cylon Centurion]] in the ''Galactica'''s museum, are from the original show.
*A model of the original series' [[Cylon Basestar]] is also in the ''Galactica'''s museum.
*A mock-up, or possibly a servicable [[Colonial Shuttle (TOS)|original series shuttle]] is another craft seen in ''Galactica'''s museum. Another of these shuttles is used by the Officer when docking at Armistice Station.
*A full-scale mock-up of an original series [[Raider (TOS)|Cylon Raider]] is visible in the ''Galactica'' museum. It is hanging from the ceiling for the flight pod.
*The [[Viper (TOS)|Original Series Viper]] appears in the museum as well.
*Finally, a [[Landram]] vehicle is seen in ''Galactica'''s museum.
*The theme played during the current affairs programme used to introduce Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]] is that of the original series fanfare. The fanfare is again heard during the decommissioning Viper flyby.
*[[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] tells [[Number Six]] that "the last time anyone saw a Cylon ''[i.e., the original series]'', they looked like walking chrome toasters."
*Baltar tells Number Six that "treason gets the death penalty;" in the original series, a point was made of the death penalty being abolished, even for treason.
[[Image:Cylonsword Mini.jpg|thumb|right|Cylon Centurion sword on Commander Adama's desk]]
* A sword carried by the Centurions in the original series is one of the weapons in Commander Adama's collection. It is possible the sword could be a war trophy picked up by Adama when the Galactica is boarded by the Cylons at the end of the war ([[Valley of Darkness]] deleted scene).
*In the first encounter between the Colonial Vipers and the [[Cylon Raiders]], one of the pilots says that during the first war, Raiders looked like flying wings (the original series' Raider design).
*One of the ''Galactica'''s pilots who is killed by the Cylons is called [["Jolly" Anders|Jolly]], the name of a ''Galactica'' pilot from the original series.
*Roslin makes a point of calling [[Lee Adama|Lee]] "[[Captain Apollo]]," saying "it has a nice ring to it."
*At the end of the Miniseries, [[Sharon Valerii]] says "[[By your command|by your command]]," the standard response of the original series' Cylons to the [[Imperious Leader]].

=== Other References ===
[[Image:SerenityBSGMini.JPG|thumb|right|A ''[[wikipedia:Firefly (TV series)|Firefly]]''-class transport in the skies above Caprica City before the Cylon attack.]]
====References not specific to the Miniseries====
*[[Number Six]]'s name is a reference to the character of the same name from ''[[wikipedia:The Prisoner|The Prisoner]]''.
*Colonel [[Saul Tigh]] is based on [[imdb:nm0000018|Kirk Douglas]]'s alcoholic XO character in ''[[wikipedia:In Harm's Way|In Harm's Way]]'', whose wife cheats on him.
*''[[Colonial One]]'''s design was based on [[wikipedia:Air Force One|Air Force One]], and the [[Raptor]]'s design was based on the [[wikipedia:AH-64 Apache|Apache]] attack helicopter.
*The Gemenon liner's ID number is "1701;" in the [[wikipedia:Star Trek|Star Trek]] franchise, (which had many ''[[wikipedia:Star Trek: The Next Generation|The Next Generation]]'' episodes written by [[Ron D. Moore]]), several models of ''USS Enterprise''s have registry numbers beginning with "NCC-1701."
*The gun used by Helo, Boomer, and other pilots is a homage to the guns used in the movie ''[[wikipedia:Blade Runner|Blade Runner]]'' (which also starred [[Edward James Olmos]]).
[[Image:Enterprise in fleet.jpg|thumb|''Star Trek'''s ''USS Enterprise'' makes a cameo appearance in the final Fleet shot of Miniseries.]]

====References limited to the Miniseries====
*''Serenity'', the ship from the show ''[[wikipedia:Firefly (TV series)|Firefly]]'', can be seen through the window above [[Laura Roslin|Roslin]]'s head at the opening to the scene she learns of her cancer diagnosis. ''Firefly'' and ''Battlestar Galactica'' shared the same special-effects studio, [[Zoic]].
*[[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]] burning the eye out of a picture of his wife is a reference to a similar scene in ''[[wikipedia:Apocalypse Now|Apocalypse Now]]'' by [[imdb:nm0000640|Martin Sheen]]'s character.
*Roslin's [[Case Orange|swearing-in as President]] was modeled to be identical to the famous [[wikipedia:Image:Lyndon B. Johnson taking the oath of office, November 1963.jpg|photograph of Lyndon B. Johnson being sworn in as U.S. President]] aboard Air Force One after [[wikipedia:John F. Kennedy|John F. Kennedy]]'s assassination.
*The original [[MemoryAlpha:USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)|USS ''Enterprise'']] makes a humorous cameo in the shot of [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] immediately before the memorial service.

== [[Season One]] ==

===[[33]]===
*(Also seen elsewhere in the series)The format of the opening titles, a series of clips representing the story of the Cylon attack on the twelve colonies and the exodus of the fleet (all taken from the [[Miniseries]], followed by clips from the upcoming episode, is a homage to the ITC / Century 21 television series [[Wikipedia:Space 1999|Space 1999]], which [[Ronald D. Moore]] admits to having watched while growing up.
* (Also seen elsewhere in the series) The photograph pilots touch on entering / leaving the Ready Room is called [["Lest We Forget"]] and shows a Colonial soldier falling to his knees on witnessing the destruction of the capital of Arilon during the Cylon Attack. This is a direct homage to the pictures of NYFD personnel at Ground Zero on 9/11, while the title is drawn from the John Ford-directed film "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" starring John Wayne.
* The ''[[Rising Star (RDM)|Rising Star]]'' mentioned as the birthplace of the fleet's first baby is a reference to the luxury liner [[Rising Star (TOS)|''Rising Star'' from the original series]]

===[[Bastille Day]]===
*[[Tom Zarek]] is played by [[Richard Hatch]], famous for his role as [[Captain Apollo (TOS)|Apollo]] in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|original series]]
*The title is a reference to the event that began the French Revolution, when a crowd of around 1,000 stormed the [[Wikipedia:Bastille prison|Bastille prison]] in Paris. In this case, the prison is a prison ship, and the prisoners themselves take it over.
*The ''[[Astral Queen]]'''s design is identical to the [[TOS Prison Barge|Prison Barge]] from the original series.
*The "I'm a bus driver, not a warden," comment from the [[Wilkens|Astral Queen's captain]] is a reference to Dr. McCoy's quips from "[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060028/combined Star Trek]."
*The scene where [[Lee Adama]] holds his pistol to a kneeling [[Tom Zarek]] is a recreation of ''[[wikipedia:Dirty Harry|Dirty Harry]]'', according to [[David Eick]]'s comments in the DVD commentary. "That is the 'I know what you're thinking, punk' shot, down to the move, the lense, the distance of the camera away from the actor."

===[[Act of Contrition]]===
*[[Ron D. Moore]] states on the DVD commentary that the munition activation that kills several pilots was inspired by a similar event on the [[wikipedia:USS Forrestal (CVA-59)|USS Forrestal]] in 1967.
*Also according to the DVD commentary, the ejection sequence at the beginning of each chapter is an homage to ''[[wikipedia:The Right Stuff|The Right Stuff]]''.
*In the flashback to Zak's funeral, there are American military HMMWV (Humvees) and 2-1/2 Ton (Deuce-and-a-Half) trucks in the Colonial base.

===[[You Can't Go Home Again]]===
*This episode shares some similarity with the final ''[[Galactica 1980]]'' episode, "The Return of Starbuck," where Starbuck is stranded on a desert moon, and uses a crashed Cylon Raider to return to the ''[[Galactica]]''.
*The messy, organic feel of inside the [[Cylon Raider]] was inspired by the ''[[wikipedia:Alien (film series)|Alien]]'' series, according to [[David Eick]] during the DVD commentary.
*The "waggling" scene with [[Lee Adama|Apollo]]'s viper and [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]]'s Cylon Raider is a nod to the original series; [[Apollo (TOS)|Apollo]] and [[Starbuck (TOS)|Starbuck]] had to "waggle" their own Cylon Raider in order to convey they were friendlies, after losing their transmitter in "[[The Hand of God (TOS)|The Hand of God]]".

===[[Litmus]]===
*The name of the episode refers to a [[Wikipedia:litmus test|litmus test]], used in chemistry to determine the presence of an acid.
*Commander Adama has copies of "Reader's Digest" in his cabin.
*Number Six says, "Don't make me angry, Gaius. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry." This is a possible reference to the famous catchphrase of Dr. Bruce Banner, just before turning into the [[wikipedia:The Hulk|Incredible Hulk]]: "You're making me angry, and you're not going to like me when I'm angry."

===[[Six Degrees of Separation]]===
*The name of the episode is a reference to the [[imdb:tt0108149|combined movie of the same name]], and share a similar concept - that everyone can be connected to others (in this case, Baltar, the dead scientist, and Shelly).

=== [[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]] ===
*The episode was initially going to be a riff on the movie [[imdb:tt0112740|Crimson Tide]], where both [[William Adama|Adama]] and [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] would begin to suspect one another of being a Cylon agent, ending up in a scene where they would be pointing weapons at one another.
*The episode's name comes from the Stereophonics' song "Tie Me Up, Tie Me Down". Its also the name of a [[imdb:tt0101026|Spanish language movie]] staring Antonio Banderas. The film, incidentally, was one of first NC-17-rated movies in America.

===[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]===
*A reference to the final episode of the original series, also called "[[The Hand of God (TOS)|The Hand of God]]"; in both episodes, Adama launches the first offensive strike against Cylon bases.
*During the battle, Starbuck yells out to Lee, "You magnificent bastard!" In the movie [[imdb:tt0066206|''Patton'']], during their first battle against each other, Patton says the same to Rommel.
*[[Ronald D. Moore]] says in his podcast that [[Lee Adama]]'s flight through the tunnel is an homage to ''[[wikipedia:Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope|Star Wars]]''.

===[[Colonial Day]]===
*The name of the news show, "The Colonial Gang," is a spoof of the CNN show "The Capital Gang."
*The controversy surrounding whether [[Laura Roslin]] would shake [[Tom Zarek]]'s hand intentionally mirrored that at the signing of the [[wikipedia:Oslo Accords|Oslo Accords]] in 1993 about whether [[wikipedia:Yitzhak Rabin|Yitzhak Rabin]] would shake hands with [[wikipedia:Yasser Arafat|Yasser Arafat]].
*The bar that Lee gets into the fight at has several bottles of Jack Daniels whiskey on the shelf.
*At the end, Roslin tells Zarek that he doesn't need to worry about her kissing him, to which he replied that it's a shame, as he shaved extra close in anticipation of getting "smacked" by her. This dialogue was taken verbatim from the movie ''Patton'', with Roslin as Montgomery and Zarek as Patton.

===[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I|Kobol's Last Gleaming]]===
*In both this episode and the original series ''The Hand of God'', the Colonials track Cylon Raiders using IFF transponders.
*Both ''Kobol's Last Gleaming'' and the original series ''The Lost Planet of the Gods'' are two-part episodes where the ''Galactica'' finds Kobol.

== [[Season Two]] ==

===[[Valley of Darkness]]===
*The title is a reference to [http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2023:4;&version=9; Psalms 23:4].
*[[Cally]] says, "I have a really bad feeling about this." This line (or variants) is a cult phrase amongst Star Wars fans; it is said in every Star Wars movie, and many of the Star Wars games and books.

===[[Fragged]]===
*The term 'fragged' comes from the Vietnam War, when it was used by American soldiers to describe deliberately killing their superior officers in the field, usually by tossing a fragmentation grenade (hence, fragged) into the room or area where the superior is located. Although Baltar doesn't kill Crashdown with a grenade, he does take out his superior officer, hence the reference.

*When Colonel Tigh asks of Adama's condition as Dr. [[Cottle]] begins surgery to save the Commander's life, he tells the XO, "How should I know? I'm not a psychic. Now get the hell out of here." This is an indirect nod to the character of "Dr. McCoy" from the original "Star Trek" series.

===[[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]===
*[[Cally]]'s assassination of Boomer resembles Jack Ruby's assassination of Lee Harvey Oswald (the assassin of JFK).
*The shooting of unarmed civilians by the Marines on the ''[[Gideon]]'', resulting in four deaths, was a reference to the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings Kent State Shootings] from the Vietnam War era.

===[[Flight of the Phoenix]]===
*The name of the episode, and the theme of attempting to make a plane from scratch, comes from the book and two movies of the same name.

===[[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]===
*The character [[Helena Cain]] and the battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' are losely based on the [[Cain (TOS)|Cain]] and ''[[Pegasus (TOS)|Pegasus]]'' from the [[TOS|original series]] episode "[[The Living Legend, Part I (TOS)|The Living Legend]]".

===[[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]===
*Adama's code word for the assassination order is "downfall". That's both a reference to the Allied plan for a ground invasion of Japan in WWII as well as to the movie [[wikipedia:Downfall (film)|"Downfall"]] about the last days in Hitler's bunker.
*Cain's words "Terminate Adama's command. Starting with Adama" are an homage to "Apocalypse Now". [[Ronald D. Moore]] briefly toyed with the idea of having her literally say "Terminate with extrem prejudice", but quickly rejected it as too obvious.

===[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]===
*Vireem and Gage's beating of Tyrol and Helo with bars of soap stuffed inside socks used as slings is an obvious homage to the Stanley Kubrick film "Full Metal Jacket", in which a similar thing happens to "Pvt. Pyle" in the Marine barracks at night.

===[[Downloaded]]===
*Sharon wears a brown jacket that seems to be an homage to Warrior uniforms from the original series.
*The [[Caprica Resistance]] members led by [[Samuel Anders]] refer to [[Cylon agent|humanoid-Cylons]] as "Skin Jobs," a reference to the classic science fiction film [[Wikipedia:Blade Runner|Blade Runner]], in which [[Edward James Olmos]] also co-starred.

===[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]===
* The ''[[Celestra]]'' (an electronics ship from TOS) was listed on vote tally boards.

== [[Season 3|Season Three]] ==

===[[Precipice]]===
* Cavil and Ellen Tigh talking about "the twist and the swirl" is a reference to the ''[[wikipedia:Seinfeld|Seinfeld]]'' episode "[[wikipedia:The Fusilli Jerry|The Fusilli Jerry]]".
* The ride to the execution site is nearly a word-for-word homage to a scene from ''[[Wikipedia:The Great Escape|The Great Escape]]''.

===[[Exodus, Part I]]===
*Admiral Adama's claim that his crew "will find immortality as only the Gods once knew" draws on [[wikipedia:Iliad#The story of the Iliad|the choice]] given to [[wikipedia:Achilles|Achilles]] by [[wikipedia:Thetis|his mother]] in [[wikipedia:Homer|Homer]]'s [[wikipedia:Iliad|Iliad]]: fight couragously and perish in battle, or be forgotten by history.

===[[Collaborators]]===
* The Circle is the name used by the Bajoran [[MemoryAlpha:Alliance for Global Unity|Alliance for Global Unity]] in [[MemoryAlpha:Star Trek: Deep Space Nine|Star Trek: Deep Space Nine]] ("[[MemoryAlpha:The Homecoming|''The Homecoming'']]", "[[MemoryAlpha:The Circle|''The Circle'']]", and "[[MemoryAlpha:The Siege|''The Siege'']]").

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Behind the Scenes]]
[[Category:RDM]]
[[Category:Lists]]

Rick Worthy

2006-12-09T04:16:55Z

Bp: chnaged a trek-related link from wikipedia to memory alpha

{{Star Data|
image=Rickworthy eyes.jpg
| character= [[Simon]]
| dob= 12 March 1967
| nationality= US
| imdb= 0941796
}}

Actor '''Rick Worthy''', born March 12, 1967, is a ''[[Wikipedia:Star Trek|Star Trek]]'' veteran, having played several alien and one human role in ''Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'', ''Star Trek: Voyager'', and ''Star Trek: Enterprise''.

Worthy also had a supporting role in the Star Trek motion picture, ''Star Trek: Insurrection,'' starring the cast of the TV series, ''Star Trek: The Next Generation''. This makes Worthy among one of the very few supporting actors to have worked in ''Star Trek'' theatrical releases as well as with every ''Star Trek'' series cast except the cast of the Original Series.

The ''Deep Space Nine'' episode Worthy starred in, "[[memoryalpha:Soldiers of the Empire|Soldiers of the Empire]]", was written by [[Ronald D. Moore]].

Worthy also had a role in a short-lived 2005 private-eye drama on CBS, called ''Eyes.'' Worthy has also guest-starred in the popular series, ''Stargate SG-1''.

Rick Worthy portrays the [[Cylon agent]] known as [[Simon]] in the [[Re-imagined Series]]. He joins fellow ''Star Trek'' veteran actor [[Michelle Forbes]] as a supporting character of the series.

==External Links==
{{ext-ma|article = Rick_Worthy}}

[[Category:A to Z|Worthy, Rick]]
[[Category:Cast|Worthy, Rick]]
[[Category:Cast (RDM)|Worthy, Rick]]
[[Category:Former Star Trek Cast and Crew|Worthy, Rick]]
[[Category:RDM|Worthy, Rick]]

Adama

2006-11-19T05:53:48Z

Bp: /* From the Re-Imagined Series */ # -> *

'''Adama''' is the name of battlestar ''[[Galactica (TOS)|Galactica's]]'' commanding officer and spiritual leader in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original "Battlestar Galactica" series]], and the surname of battlestar ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica's]]'' commander and his family in the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]].

=== From the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]] ===

* [[Adama (TOS)|Commander Adama]], military leader, patriarch, President of the [[Quorum of Twelve]], and commander of the battlestar [[Galactica (TOS)|''Galactica'']]

===From [[Galactica 1980]] ===

* [[Adama (1980)|Commander Adama]], military leader, patriarch, President of the [[Quorum of Twelve]], and commander of the battlestar [[Galactica (TOS)|''Galactica'']] (30 years later)

=== From the [[Video Game]] ===

* [[William Adama (Video Game)|Lt. William "Husker" Adama]], orphaned [[Viper (Video Game)|Viper]] pilot on ''[[Galactica (Video Game)|Galactica]]'' in a separate continuity from either Original or Re-imagined Series.

=== From the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-Imagined Series]] ===

* Admiral [[William Adama]] of the battlestar ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'', [[BSG 75]].
* Commander [[Lee Adama]], of the battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', formerly [[CAG]] of ''Galactica''. Brother of [[Zak Adama|Zak]] and son of [[William Adama|William]] and [[Caroline Adama]].
* [[Zak Adama]] (deceased), brother of [[Lee Adama|Lee]] and son of [[William Adama|William]] and [[Caroline Adama]].
* [[Caroline Adama]], first wife of [[William Adama|William]], mother of [[Zak Adama|Zak]] and [[Lee Adama|Lee]].
* [[Anne Adama]], second wife of [[William Adama|William]].
* [[Joseph Adama]], father of [[William Adama|William]].
* [[Evelyn Adama]], mother of [[William Adama|William]].

{{disambig}}

Adama

2006-11-19T05:52:48Z

Bp: /* From the Re-Imagined Series */ +Evelyn

'''Adama''' is the name of battlestar ''[[Galactica (TOS)|Galactica's]]'' commanding officer and spiritual leader in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original "Battlestar Galactica" series]], and the surname of battlestar ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica's]]'' commander and his family in the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]].

=== From the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]] ===

* [[Adama (TOS)|Commander Adama]], military leader, patriarch, President of the [[Quorum of Twelve]], and commander of the battlestar [[Galactica (TOS)|''Galactica'']]

===From [[Galactica 1980]] ===

* [[Adama (1980)|Commander Adama]], military leader, patriarch, President of the [[Quorum of Twelve]], and commander of the battlestar [[Galactica (TOS)|''Galactica'']] (30 years later)

=== From the [[Video Game]] ===

* [[William Adama (Video Game)|Lt. William "Husker" Adama]], orphaned [[Viper (Video Game)|Viper]] pilot on ''[[Galactica (Video Game)|Galactica]]'' in a separate continuity from either Original or Re-imagined Series.

=== From the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-Imagined Series]] ===

# Admiral [[William Adama]] of the battlestar ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'', [[BSG 75]].
# Commander [[Lee Adama]], of the battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', formerly [[CAG]] of ''Galactica''. Brother of [[Zak Adama|Zak]] and son of [[William Adama|William]] and [[Caroline Adama]].
# [[Zak Adama]] (deceased), brother of [[Lee Adama|Lee]] and son of [[William Adama|William]] and [[Caroline Adama]].
# [[Caroline Adama]], first wife of [[William Adama|William]], mother of [[Zak Adama|Zak]] and [[Lee Adama|Lee]].
# [[Anne Adama]], second wife of [[William Adama|William]].
# [[Joseph Adama]], father of [[William Adama|William]].
# [[Evelyn Adama]], mother of [[William Adama|William]].

{{disambig}}

Shannon Adama

2006-11-19T05:51:27Z

Bp: new article

'''Evelyn Adama''' was the wife of [[Joseph Adama]] and mother of [[William Adama]]. She was an accountant. ([[Hero]])

Richard Lynch

2006-11-15T22:25:41Z

Bp:

[[Image:Xavier.jpg|thumb|Richard Lynch as Xavier]]
'''Richard Lynch''' is the actor who played [[Xavier]] in ''[[Galactica 1980]]''. He is the only actor to hold the distinction for appearing in ''[[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Battlestar Galactica]]'', ''Galactica 1980'', and ''[[Battlestar Galactica: The Second Coming]]''.
{{Mstub}}

== External links ==
{{ext-ma}}

[[Category:A to Z|Lynch, Richard]]

[[Category:Cast|Lynch, Richard]]
[[Category:Cast (TOS)|Lynch, Richard]]
[[Category:Cast (1980)|Lynch, Richard]]
[[Category:Cast (TSC)|Lynch, Richard]]

[[Category:TOS]]
[[Category:1980]]
[[Category:TSC]]

Richard Lynch

2006-11-15T22:25:17Z

Bp:

[[Image:Xavier.jpg|thumb|Richard Lynch as Xavier]]
'''Richard Lynch''' is the actor who played [[Xavier]] in ''[[Galactica 1980]]''. He is the only actor to hold the distinction for appearing in ''[[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Battlestar Galactica]]'', [[Galactica 1980]], and ''[[Battlestar Galactica: The Second Coming]]''.
{{Mstub}}

== External links ==
{{ext-ma}}

[[Category:A to Z|Lynch, Richard]]

[[Category:Cast|Lynch, Richard]]
[[Category:Cast (TOS)|Lynch, Richard]]
[[Category:Cast (1980)|Lynch, Richard]]
[[Category:Cast (TSC)|Lynch, Richard]]

[[Category:TOS]]
[[Category:1980]]
[[Category:TSC]]

Template:Ext-ma

2006-11-15T22:24:05Z

Bp:

<noinclude>
Use for external links section for a cast member who also has a page at '''Memory Alpha'''.
<pre>{{ext-ma|article = Rick_Worthy}}</pre>
[[Category:External Link Templates|{{PAGENAME}}]]
</noinclude>
*[[MemoryAlpha:{{{article|{{PAGENAME}}}}}|{{PAGENAME}}]] article at [http://www.memory-alpha.org Memory Alpha], the Star Trek wiki.

Number Four

2006-11-11T20:06:57Z

Bp: jeeze this place is slow today

{{Character Data
|photo= Cysim.jpg
|age=
|colony=
|birthname=
|callsign=
|seen= The Farm
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status=
|role= Cylon Surgeon
|rank=
|actor= [[Rick Worthy]]
|cylon= y
|name=
}}
'''Simon''' is a [[Cylon agent]] who poses as a doctor caring for [[Kara Thrace|Kara "Starbuck" Thrace]] after her capture in "[[The Farm]]."

Simon tries to casually persuade her into bearing children but is unsuccessful. When his diplomatic efforts fail, he surgically explores her ovaries without Thrace's permission, either partially removing an ovary or its eggs. On orders from a copy of [[Number Six]], Simon arranges a time to surgically remove Thrace's ovaries.

Before Simon could sedate her again and remove her ovaries, Thrace's suspicion that he is a Cylon is confirmed. In conversation he uses her call sign, which she never mentioned in his presence. Thrace kills him and escapes from the [[Farms|Farm]].

Another copy of Simon is seen just as Thrace exits the building, a more well-kept copy in a dark business suit who greets Thrace just as she reaches the outside of the compound. Before he can speak further, members of the [[Caprica Resistance]] immediately kill him as they storm the Farm to liberate Thrace.

At least one other copy is seen on Cylon-occupied Caprica. ([[Downloaded]])

A Simon was present in President [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar's]] office during the [[Battle of New Caprica]]. ([[Exodus, Part II]])

A Simon captured on the infected [[Basestar]] near the horsehead nebula was interrogated on board [[Galactica]]. He revealed information about the ship and the Cylons' motives for abandoning it, in exchange for a cure promised by the humans. There was no cure, only a treatment. This Simon was killed when [[Karl Agathon]] sabotaged the enivronmental control system, killing the Cylon prisoners to stop them from being used as biological weapons. ([[A Measure of Salvation]])

''Simon was the first new Cylon agent model revealed after the [[Miniseries]], and brought the total number of known models to 5. The later revelations of [[D'anna Biers]] and [[Cavil]] as Cylons brought the total to 7.''

==Note==
*Whether Simon has completely or partially removed one or both ovaries or just their eggs from Kara Thrace is unclear. The sentence that Kara overhears Simon saying to Number Six is, ''"Pending lab test results on the sample ovaries, complete removal will proceed tomorrow. If lab tests are positive, then subject will be moved to processing facility for final disposition."'' However, humans only have two ovaries, so it seems implausible that he would take a "sample" one, so perhaps the line truly meant "ova" (egg cells). It is clear that he didn't completely remove all of Starbuck's reproductive cells, as Starbuck escaped before "complete removal" took place.
*It is possible that this particular model, like the Valerii model, is prone to sympathizing with humans. He expresses regret, which another Six model notices, when discussing the possibility of removing her ovaries. Based on the lone scar that Thrace acquired, at most a single ovary was removed, if at all.
*Actor Rick Worthy doesn't actually appear in "Downloaded" and is uncredited: briefly during the cafe scene, we see another bald black man ''from behind'', and we see him walking by in some of the outdoor scenes in the background. It is clearly implied to be Simon, however he is not credited and RDM stated in [[Podcast:Downloaded#Act 1|the podcast]] that it was just an extra standing in for him.

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Characters]]
[[Category:Characters (RDM)]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Number Four

2006-11-11T20:00:02Z

Bp: the Simon from A Measure of Salvation

{{Character Data
|photo= Cysim.jpg
|age=
|colony=
|birthname=
|callsign=
|seen= The Farm
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status=
|role= Cylon Surgeon
|rank=
|actor= [[Rick Worthy]]
|cylon= y
|name=
}}
'''Simon''' is a [[Cylon agent]] who poses as a doctor caring for [[Kara Thrace|Kara "Starbuck" Thrace]] after her capture in "[[The Farm]]."

Simon tries to casually persuade her into bearing children but is unsuccessful. When his diplomatic efforts fail, he surgically explores her ovaries without Thrace's permission, either partially removing an ovary or its eggs. On orders from a copy of [[Number Six]], Simon arranges a time to surgically remove Thrace's ovaries.

Before Simon could sedate her again and remove her ovaries, Thrace's suspicion that he is a Cylon is confirmed. In conversation he uses her call sign, which she never mentioned in his presence. Thrace kills him and escapes from the [[Farms|Farm]].

Another copy of Simon is seen just as Thrace exits the building, a more well-kept copy in a dark business suit who greets Thrace just as she reaches the outside of the compound. Before he can speak further, members of the [[Caprica Resistance]] immediately kill him as they storm the Farm to liberate Thrace.

At least one other copy is seen on Cylon-occupied Caprica. ([[Downloaded]])

A Simon was present in President [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar's]] office during the [[Battle of New Caprica]]. ([[Exodus, Part II]])

A Simon captured on the infected [[Basestar]] near the horsehead nebula was interrogated on board [[Galactica]]. He revealed information about the ship and the Cylons' motives for abandoning it, in exchange for a cure promised by the humans. There was no cure, only a treatment. This Simon was killed when Agathorn sabotaged the enivronmental control system, killing the Cylon prisoners to stop them from being used as biological weapons. ([[A Measure of Salvation]])

''Simon was the first new Cylon agent model revealed after the [[Miniseries]], and brought the total number of known models to 5. The later revelations of [[D'anna Biers]] and [[Cavil]] as Cylons brought the total to 7.''

==Note==
*Whether Simon has completely or partially removed one or both ovaries or just their eggs from Kara Thrace is unclear. The sentence that Kara overhears Simon saying to Number Six is, ''"Pending lab test results on the sample ovaries, complete removal will proceed tomorrow. If lab tests are positive, then subject will be moved to processing facility for final disposition."'' However, humans only have two ovaries, so it seems implausible that he would take a "sample" one, so perhaps the line truly meant "ova" (egg cells). It is clear that he didn't completely remove all of Starbuck's reproductive cells, as Starbuck escaped before "complete removal" took place.
*It is possible that this particular model, like the Valerii model, is prone to sympathizing with humans. He expresses regret, which another Six model notices, when discussing the possibility of removing her ovaries. Based on the lone scar that Thrace acquired, at most a single ovary was removed, if at all.
*Actor Rick Worthy doesn't actually appear in "Downloaded" and is uncredited: briefly during the cafe scene, we see another bald black man ''from behind'', and we see him walking by in some of the outdoor scenes in the background. It is clearly implied to be Simon, however he is not credited and RDM stated in [[Podcast:Downloaded#Act 1|the podcast]] that it was just an extra standing in for him.

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Characters]]
[[Category:Characters (RDM)]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Number Four

2006-10-22T00:54:18Z

Bp: mention his appearance in Exodus II, remove note about Kacey, she was kidnapped - not really Thrace's daughter

{{Character Data
|photo= Cysim.jpg
|age=
|colony=
|birthname=
|callsign=
|seen= The Farm
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status=
|role= Cylon Surgeon
|rank=
|actor= [[Rick Worthy]]
|cylon= y
|name=
}}
'''Simon''' is a [[Cylon agent]] who poses as a doctor caring for [[Kara Thrace|Kara "Starbuck" Thrace]] after her capture in "[[The Farm]]."

Simon tries to casually persuade her into bearing children but is unsuccessful. When his diplomatic efforts fail, he surgically explores her ovaries without Thrace's permission, either partially removing an ovary or its eggs. On orders from a copy of [[Number Six]], Simon arranges a time to surgically remove Thrace's ovaries.

Before Simon could sedate her again and remove her ovaries, Thrace's suspicion that he is a Cylon is confirmed. In conversation he uses her call sign, which she never mentioned in his presence. Thrace kills him and escapes from the [[Farms|Farm]].

Another copy of Simon is seen just as Thrace exits the building, a more well-kept copy in a dark business suit who greets Thrace just as she reaches the outside of the compound. Before he can speak further, members of the [[Caprica Resistance]] immediately kill him as they storm the Farm to liberate Thrace.

At least one other copy is seen on Cylon-occupied Caprica. ([[Downloaded]])

A Simon was present in President [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar's]] during the [[Battle of New Caprica]]. ([[Exodus, Part II]])

''Simon was the first new Cylon agent model revealed after the [[Miniseries]], and brought the total number of known models to 5. The later revelations of [[D'anna Biers]] and [[Cavil]] as Cylons brought the total to 7.''

==Note==
*Whether Simon has completely or partially removed one or both ovaries or just their eggs from Kara Thrace is unclear. The sentence that Kara overhears Simon saying to Number Six is, ''"Pending lab test results on the sample ovaries, complete removal will proceed tomorrow. If lab tests are positive, then subject will be moved to processing facility for final disposition."'' However, humans only have two ovaries, so it seems implausible that he would take a "sample" one, so perhaps the line truly meant "ova" (egg cells). It is clear that he didn't completely remove all of Starbuck's reproductive cells, as Starbuck escaped before "complete removal" took place.
*It is possible that this particular model, like the Valerii model, is prone to sympathizing with humans. He expresses regret, which another Six model notices, when discussing the possibility of removing her ovaries. Based on the lone scar that Thrace acquired, at most a single ovary was removed, if at all.
*Actor Rick Worthy doesn't actually appear in "Downloaded" and is uncredited: briefly during the cafe scene, we see another bald black man ''from behind'', and we see him walking by in some of the outdoor scenes in the background. It is clearly implied to be Simon, however he is not credited and RDM stated in [[Podcast:Downloaded#Act 1|the podcast]] that it was just an extra standing in for him.

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Characters]]
[[Category:Characters (RDM)]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Pegasus (TRS)

2006-10-22T00:53:45Z

Bp: rm extra white space

:''For the second-season episode, see [[Pegasus (episode)]]. For the Original Series ''Pegasus'', see [[Pegasus (TOS)]].''
{{Ship Data|
image= BSPegasus.jpg
| title= Pegasus (BS 62)
| race= Colonial
| type= Military
| ftl= Yes
| crew= Approximately 1,750
| co= [[Lee Adama]]
| xo= [[Anastasia Dualla]]
| role= Carrier / Battleship hybrid
| weapons= Primary and point-defense [[KEW|Kinetic Energy Weapons]], conventional missiles, nuclear warheads, Vipers, Raptors
| status= Destroyed in [[Battle of New Caprica]]
| img= Y
}}
'''''Pegasus'' (BS 62)''' was a [[Mercury class battlestar|''Mercury'' class battlestar]], commanded by Admiral [[Helena Cain]].

Much more advanced in size, strength, and technology than the decommissioned battlestar ''[[Galactica]]'', ''Pegasus'' was presumed destroyed in the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]] by the [[The Fleet (RDM)|the survivors of the Colonies]].

==History==
Although ''Pegasus'' was advanced enough to have the [[Command Navigation Program]] installed, which the Cylons used as a backdoor, ''Pegasus'' had just checked in for a three-month refit at the time of the Cylon attack, and as such, almost all of its networked [[Computers|computer]] systems were offline. As a result, the Cylons were not able to immobilize the ship using computer infiltration. Combined with the sheer luck of the multiple targets that the Cylons enjoyed, the nuclear detonations temporarily blinded the Cylon [[DRADIS]]. Her options limited, Admiral Cain orders her ship to [[Blind jump|randomly jump without a coordinates check]].

While saving the battlestar, the risky blind jump was not the end of their troubles. An indeterminate amount of time later, the [[Cylon agent]] known as [[Gina]] allowed a party of [[Cylon Centurion|Cylon Centurions]] to board the ship, resulting in approximately 700 deaths. When Gina was found out, she killed 7 men before she was subdued. Once she was imprisoned, ''Pegasus''' commander instituted a new policy of Cylon interrogation - brutal gangrape.

After their escape, ''Pegasus'' occupied itself with hit-and-run attacks on various Cylon assets. It participated in a bold assault on a staging area filled with fifteen squadrons of [[Raider]]s. When Cain's long-time [[Executive officer]] expressed hesitancy to launch the ships' fighters against such odds, Cain publicly executed him on the bridge and promoted [[Jack Fisk]] to replace him. Fisk tells this story (and later recants it) while drunk to Colonel [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]], which Tigh believed to be true when he recounts it in turn to Commander Adama.

Some time later, ''Pegasus'' discovered that a Cylon fleet it was tracking appeared to be jumping, not randomly, but to systems with natural resources. The battlestar accidentally encountered [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] led by battlestar ''[[Galactica]]'' when ''Pegasus'' jumped ahead to scout the Cylon target's projected next position (as it turned out, the Cylons were jumping to systems ''Galactica'' had passed through or explored). Cain assumes overall command of the Fleet and began transferring supplies and many personnel between the two battlestars, including Captain [[Lee Adama]] and Lieutenant [[Kara Thrace]]. Cain appeared unconcerned with the needs of the civilians and their ships, a problem noted to Commander Adama by President [[Laura Roslin]].

Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] mentioned during his interrogation by Colonel [[Saul Tigh]] that he served aboard a number of battlestars in his military career, including ''Pegasus'' ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]). If Admiral Cain ever knew him during this time, she made no mention of it, and had no reservations sentencing him and [[Karl Agathon]] to death when they inadvertently kill Lieutenant [[Alistair Thorne]], Cain's chief "Cylon interrogator". [[William Adama]], commander of ''Galactica'', refused to permit the execution, precipitating an armed standoff between the two ships ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]).

The battlestars later succeed in destroying the Resurrection Ship. But ''Pegasus''' commander is later killed by Gina ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]).

''Pegasus'' commander Admiral [[Helena Cain]] is succeeded after her murder by [[Jack Fisk]], who in turn is also murdered after running afoul of the fleet's illicit black market ([[Black Market]]). ''Pegasus'' is briefly commanded by engineer-turned-commander [[Barry Garner]], who is killed saving the ship during the [[Battle of the Binary Star System]]. ''Pegasus'' was commanded by Commander [[Lee Adama]], son of the Fleet's supreme commander, Admiral [[William Adama]].

''Pegasus'' becomes unofficially known as "The Beast" amongst the Fleet, although it is not known if the nickname comes from her tenacity in combat or its sordid crew history ([[The Captain's Hand]]).

==New Caprica==

Following the founding of [[New Caprica]], ''Pegasus'' is assigned to the Orbital Defense Force that protects the planet. During this time Commander [[Lee Adama]] keeps an emergency supply of medications aboard for the pilots, despite the fact that their crew had been severely reduced due to repopulation of the planet. One year after the founding the colony, the Cylons return in force. Unable to defend the planet, Pegasus and the remaining ships in the defense fleet jump away from the planet ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

Four months later, ''Pegasus'' and ''Galactica'' plan a rescue mission to recover the people on the planet ([[Occupation]]). While the plans initially call for the involvement of ''Pegasus'' in the recovery, Admiral Adama realizes that the remains of the Fleet, the last free people of humanity, must not be involved in the fight should things go awry. Adama orders his son to stay with the last of the Fleet at a rendevous point to await their return ([[Precipice]], [[Exodus, Part I]]).

Despite its orders, ''Pegasus'' returns to New Caprica to participate in the rescue efforts. Thanks to its assistance ''Galactica'' is rescued from destruction and manages to jump away, but ''Pegasus'' remains under attack from four Cylon baseships. With her fighters deployed protecting the fleet, ''Pegasus'' is relatively defenseless. As ''Pegasus'' is dying, Commander Adama orders the crew to abandon ship. As the EVAC Raptors jump away, ''Pegasus'' flies directly into a basestar. The remains of the starboard flight pod collide with another basestar, destroying it as well ([[Exodus, Part II]]).

'''See also:''' [[Battle of New Caprica]]

==A Lost Civilian Fleet==

It was later revealed that ''Pegasus'' originally had its own small fleet of 15 civilian ships, found about a week after the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]. The tiny caravan was equipped with FTL drives and weapons. Rather than defending them (as ''Galactica'' had at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]), Admiral Cain saw them as potential spare parts for ''Pegasus'', and decided that ''Pegasus' '' military needs were a priority over them. The civilian ships were stripped for parts, including their weapons and FTL drives, marooning them and leaving them completely at the mercy of the Cylons when Cain left.

However not all of the civilians were left to die: after looking over the passenger lists, Cain selected those civilians who she thought would be of value (such as [[Peter Laird]], an aeronautical engineer), forcibly drafting them into her crew. However, 15 'selectees' aboard the civilian transport ''[[Scylla]]'' were traveling with their families and refused to leave without them. Admiral Cain ordered her marines to kill two families (men, women, and children) to shock the rest into submission. ''Pegasus'' then abandoned the civilian ships to pursue Admiral Cain's campaign of hit-and-run attacks against Cylon forces ([[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]).

==Equipment==
[[Image:TheEnemysGateIsDown3.jpg|thumb|right|Pegasus taking heavy fire]]
In the [[Pegasus (Extended Version)|Extended Cut]] of the episode "Pegasus" Admiral Cain states that the ship is nearly twice the size of ''Galactica'', but needs only half the crew. This probably refers to either the dual [[landing bay|landing bays]] or the ship's volume, but not its length. The decreased manpower requirement stems from increased computerization and automation. This is also evident in the comparatively small size of the ''Pegasus'' [[CIC]].
[[Image:PegasusForeBatteries.jpg|thumb|right|Pegasus firing her forward batteries]]

''Pegasus'' operates at least four [[Viper Mark VII]] squadrons, all verbally identified in the episode "[[The Captain's Hand]]":
*[[Red Squadron (RDM)|Red Squadron]]
*[[Yellow Squadron]]
*[[Green Squadron]]
*[[Blue Squadron (RDM)|Blue Squadron]]

It is possible that these designations are just [[wireless]] code names and not formal, standing squadrons. The colors and group leaders could be assigned on an ad-hoc basis, while a more formal structure exists in the background; such as the [[Vigilantes]] on ''Galactica''.

''Pegasus'' has [[Viper Mark VII]] production facilities ([[Scar]]). This is a capability that would allow the ship to be self sufficient on extended deployments, so long as the battlestar has sufficient means to gather the raw materials necessary for construction.

In "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]" ''Pegasus'' is shown to have built in electronic countermeasure (ECM) generators as it deviates missiles away from the ship.

==Crew==
====Senior Staff following the founding of New Caprica====
*Commander [[Lee Adama]] - Commanding Officer
*Lieutenant [[Anastasia Dualla]] - [[Executive Officer]]
*Lieutenant [[Hoshi]] - Communications or [[Tactical Officer]]

====Former Members of the Senior Staff====
*Admiral [[Helena Cain]] - Commanding Officer (Killed by [[Gina]])
*Commander [[Jack Fisk]] - Commanding Officer (Killed by racketeers in the [[Black market (organization)|black market]])
*Commander [[Barry Garner]] - Commanding Officer (Killed in action)
*Captain [[Cole Taylor]] - [[CAG|Commander, Air Group]] (Demoted by Admiral Cain)
*Captain [[Kara Thrace]] - Commander, Air Group (Replaced Cole Taylor in "[[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]" but transferred to ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' in "[[The Captain's Hand]]")
*Lieutenant [[Alistair Thorne]] - Cylon Interrogator (Killed by [[Galen Tyrol]])

==Notes==
*According to [[David Eick]]'s video blog, it would have been impossible to afford creating new sets for the entire interior of ''Pegasus'' on the budget of an episodic television show. This expense was circumvented when a year beforehand Ron D. Moore and David Eick bought (for next to nothing) the abandoned sets of the failed pilot for the FOX network's "Lost In Space" remake, directed by John Woo. The production team then held onto the sets hoping to find some later use for them, eventually using them for "[[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]". The sets were then radically redesigned and painted to give them the aesthetic look of ''Galactica'', but sleeker and more advanced.
*This ship is named after [[w:Pegasus|the winged horse from Greek mythology]].

== Related Imagery ==

<gallery>
Image:Pegasus01.jpg|''Pegasus'' - Front view    
Image:Pegasus_Hi-Res_1a.jpg|''Pegasus'' - Vipers landing    
Image:Pegasus_Hi-Res_5a.jpg|''Pegasus'' - Gun batteries    
Image:Pegasus_Hi-Res_3a.jpg|''Pegasus'' - Next to ''Galactica''    
Image:Pegasus 217 1080i rescale.jpg|''Pegasus'' - Side angle    
Image:Pegasus2_217_1080i_rescale.jpg|''Pegasus'' - Reverse side    
</gallery>

{{Ships}}

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Battlestars]]
[[Category:Battlestars (RDM)]]
[[Category:Colonial]]
[[Category:Colonial Craft]]
[[Category:Colonial Craft (RDM)]]
[[Category:Colonial Military]]
[[Category:Colonial Military (RDM)]]
[[Category:Ships]]
[[Category:Ships (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

[[es:Pegasus (RDM)]]

The Eye of Jupiter

2006-10-14T03:50:45Z

Bp: /* Overview */ wp link fix

{{spoiler}}

{{Episode Data
| title= The Eye of Jupiter
| season= 3
| episode= 11
| guests=
| writer= [[Mark Verheiden]]
| story=
| director= [[Michael Rymer]]
| production=
| rating=
| US airdate= December 8, 2006
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population= ?
| prev= [[The Passage]]
| next= [[Rapture]]
}}

== Overview ==
*According to an [http://www.nowplayingmag.com/content/view/4175/58/ interview] with executive producer [[David Eick]], the mid-season cliffhanger story, spanning episodes 10 and 11, will center on "discovering the next big clue on the road to Earth."
*There will be a mid-season break between episodes 10 and 11. However it will not be as long as the hiatus between "[[Pegasus]]" and "[[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]": while that mid-season break lasted four months, this is a normal mid-season Christmas break which will last a single month.
*According to a [http://www.kamloopsnews.ca/news.html news report], this episode is being filmed in [[Wikipedia:Kamloops, British Columbia|Kamloops, British Columbia]], not Vancouver (and is considered a big economic boon to Kamloops as a result). The episode takes place on an unnamed planet that the Fleet encounters. According to [[Jamie Bamber]], the Fleet is still in search of Earth, but food supplies have started to run desperately low. ''Galactica'' encounters a planet capable of supporting life, so Apollo is sent with a team to the surface to set up base camp and scout it out to investigate possible food sources. However, the Cylons then arrive, resulting in "a pitched battle" between the Colonial ground team and Cylon Centurions. [[Aaron Douglas]] (Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]) and [[Nicki Clyne]] ([[Cally Henderson Tyrol]]) are also present in this episode in scenes with Bamber, meaning their characters will survive at least this long into season 3.
*Another [http://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=15&cat=44&id=702286&more= report] has revealed that [[Michael Trucco]] ([[Samuel Anders]]) appears in this episode, which means he survives this far into season 3.

== Summary ==

== Questions ==
* This episode title is peculiar. After the fall of the Greeks to the Romans in ancient real-world Earth history, the Romans adapted the Olympian pantheon of gods but changed names and some of their stories. The leader, [[Zeus]], became Jupiter, and [[Hera, Lord of Kobol|Hera]] become Juno. Does this mean that there are Roman-like mythological parallels/influences within the Twelve Colonies?
** While the title reference could be for the ''planet'' [[wikipedia:Jupiter (planet)|Jupiter]], this infers that the Twelve Colonies know of the nature of Earth's solar system. This is unlikely since they still haven't a clue of the exact location. However, the fact that the [[Tomb of Athena]]'s hologram appears to be created from data that could only come from someone that noted the stellar positioning from Earth, this could suggest that the planet's name is of Earth origin (see [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies]]).
** The [[Mercury class battlestar]] is another odd occurance of Roman mythos in the Re-imagined Series, as Hermes is the Greek name of this flying god.
** [[Mars Day]] is also another odd occurance, as Mars is the Roman name of the Greek god [[Ares]].

== Analysis ==

== Notes ==

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

== Official Statements ==

== Guest Stars ==
*[[Aaron Douglas]] as Chief Petty Officer [[Galen Tyrol]]
*[[Nicki Clyne]] as [[Cally Henderson Tyrol]]
*[[Michael Trucco]] as [[Samuel Anders]]
*[[Alisen Down]] as [[Jean Barolay]]
*[[imdb:nm1052369|Diego Diablo Del Mar]] as [[Hillard]]

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: RDM]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Mark Verheiden]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Rymer]]

Exodus, Part I

2006-10-14T03:34:34Z

Bp: /* Questions */

{{Episode Data
| title= Exodus, Part I
| image=Roslinanders-Exodus.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 3
| guests=
| writer= [[Bradley Thompson]] [[David Weddle]]
| story=
| director= [[Félix Enríquez Alcalá]]
| production= 303
| rating=
| US airdate= 2006-10-13
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population= ?
| prev= [[Precipice]]
| next= [[Exodus, Part II]]
}}

== Overview ==

:''The [[Cylons]] have begun a brutal crackdown on [[New Caprica]]'s nascent human [[Resistance]] movement. With time running out for the colonists, Admiral Adama must launch his rescue attempt earlier than he'd expected. But though he expected a fight from the Cylons, he is unprepared for the one he gets from his son, Lee, who refuses to let the battlestar [[Pegasus]] join the Galactica's suicidal attack. Tyrol receives disturbing news from a secret source within Baltar's administration while Colonial detainees face a Cylon firing squad on New Caprica. <ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.tvguide.com/detail/tv-show.aspx?episodeid=5893739&tvobjectid=191395&more=ucepisodelist|title=TVGuide.com Guide on "Exodus, Part I"|accessdate=2 October 2006}}</ref>''

== Summary ==

== Questions ==

*A Cavil mentions that there is a different sensation after each download. A slight headache after the first and after the third a white hot poker in his skull. Is there damage to the consciousness during each downloading and is there a point where after so many downloads the consciousness is destroyed?
* Are the Gods real? Why are they sending accurate dreams to the cylons? Why is the oracle helping the cylons interpret the dreams?
* Why does the doctor work to heal critically injured cylons instead of just letting them die and be ressurected?

== Analysis ==
* The [[Number Three]] that has been having dreams about Hera saw [[Sharon Agathon]] she was able to tell that she was the copy that had been left with Helo on Caprica.

== Notes ==

* There is also a comic called ''[[Exodus!]]'', which covers the events of [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|the Original Series]]' episode, "[[Saga of a Star World]]" (Part 2).
* This is the first episode where viewers have seen an [[oracle]]. Oracles such as [[Pythia]] and [[Galen Tyrol]]'s mother have been mentioned but not seen.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

== Official Statements ==

== Guest Stars ==

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: RDM]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Félix Enríquez Alcalá]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Bradley Thompson]]
[[Category:Episodes written by David Weddle]]

Template:Welcome

2006-10-08T08:58:06Z

Bp: added pagename as default for {{{1}}}

== Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! ==
Welcome to the Wiki, {{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}. Feel free to tell us about yourself on [[User:{{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}|your user page]]. Before you get started on other edits, please read the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions|Standards and Conventions]], which details the policies we use in editing pages (this differs from many other wikis in its particular use of verb tense, abbreviations, formatting, and the like). If you need help in learning how to use the MediaWiki tools supported here, you can check out the [[BW:TUT|tutorial]] and the [[BW:MARK|wiki markup code]] pages for assistance.

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We encourage you to participate in any [[Battlestar Wiki:Project List|projects]] on Battlestar Wiki, which work to enhance a particular subject or extension of the wiki. These include the [[Battlestar Wiki:Original Series Article Development Project|Original Series Article Development Project]] and several [[Battlestar Wiki:Translation Project|language translations of Battlestar Wiki]]. If you have a new idea for a new project, visit the [[BW:TANK|Think Tank]], where we hash out large-scale ideas before implementing them.

Also, if you have any questions or suggestions you wish to offer, please feel free to do so either on an article's talk page that's relevant to the subject, the [[Battlestar Wiki:Wikipedian Quorum|Wikipedian Quorum]] or [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|the Administrators' noticeboard]]. Remember to sign your posts on any talk pages using four tildes (~~~~)!

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Precipice

2006-10-08T08:51:03Z

Bp: /* Noteworthy Dialogue */ correct the quote

{{Episode Data
| title= Precipice
| image=Season 3 - Promo - Epi 1 - 2 - C-Number Eight, Adama, Helo.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 1.5
| guests=
| writer= [[Ronald D. Moore]]
| story=
| director= [[Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]]
| production=
| rating=
| US airdate= 2006-10-06
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population= ?
| prev= [[Occupation]]
| next= [[Exodus, Part I]]
}}

== Overview ==
:''The [[Cylons (RDM) |Cylons]] have occupied the human settlement of [[New Caprica]], and it's been three months since the [[Galactica]], the [[Pegasus]], and a handful of ships escaped into deep space. But the fight is not over. On New Caprica, a resistance has begun — and despite having only a handful of untested pilots at his command, [[Admiral Adama]] is committed to risking everything on a daring attack to rescue the people he left behind.'' <ref>[http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/ SciFi Episode Guide]</ref>

== Summary ==
*Baltar visits Roslin in her dentention cell to discuss the suicide-bombimgs, after which he releases her.
*Colonel Tigh is running the resistance effort, with Tyrol and Anders acting as his second in command officers.
*After sending Duck in on a suicide bomb run in an effort to kill Baltar, the Cylons begin a crackdown and round up random civilians.
*Gaeta continues to give information to the resistance, though Tyrol is unaware that Gaeta is his source inside the presidency. Tyrol calls Gaeta a collaborator.
*Every day a Raptor jumps in and listens for a wireless broadcast. With the list of jamming frequencies provided by Gaeta, Tyrol manages to contact the Colonial Fleet.
*Adama swears in Sharon as an officer and sends her down to New Caprica to help the resistance.
*Anders and a crew meets Sharon in a canyon outside of town after she jumps in inside the planetary atmosphere.
*Ellen Tigh, after being threatened with more harm to Colonel Tigh, gives the Cylons information on where the meeting is to take place. Sharon and Anders are ambushed by Cylon Centurions.
*The Cylons force Baltar to sign an execution order for 200 civilians, including Cally, Roslin and Zarek after another suicide bomber takes out the power plant. The detainees are transported outside the city.
*While stopping to ostensibly let the detainees stretch their legs, Jammer cuts Cally's bonds and tells her to run and not look back. Just as she gets away, Centurions show up to execute the detainees with Zarek pulling Roslyn away from the front of the crowd. As Cally runs through the forest, the sound of automatic gunfire rings out.

== Questions ==

*If [[Sharon Agathon]] is killed during her mission on [[New Caprica]], will she be able to download into a new body?
*Where will [[Cally]] be able to run to? She was ordered to face execution by the Colonial Government.
*Why did the Cylons abandon their plan for a public execution? More Importantly, if we are to assume that the gun fire at the end of the episode is not from the Centurions, who then?
**There is the possibility, however remote, that it was the New Caprica Police who opened fire on the Centurions. However, story-wise that might be a cop-out, and it is unlikely that the NCP would take such action, Jammer's release of Cally not withstanding.
*What is the role of the five unseen Cylon models in the occupation? Are they present and simply remaining off-camera for the benefit of the audience? Have they attempted to hide themselves from the Colonials?
*[[Cally Henderson]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)]] both took their husbands' names upon marriage, as did [[Ellen Tigh]], [[Caroline Adama]] and [[Sesha Abinell]]. Are [[Anastasia Dualla]] and [[Kara Thrace]] now Anastasia Adama, and Kara Anders, respectively?
*What is the relationship between Caprica-Six's shooting and the reappearance of [[Cylon-Related_Hallucinations#Baltar.27s_Internal_Six |Baltar's Internal Six]]?
**It is possible that two events are not directly related. The reappearance was not immediate, but happened after Doral and Cavil continued to threaten Baltar with death. Since Caprica-Six's support was gone, Baltar was under severe stress and thought that he might likely die. Internal Six has shown a tendency to appear at those times, especially if Baltar's survival is at stake.
*Now that the Battlestar Sharon has landed on the surface of New Caprica, how can she be distingushed from other Sharons there?
**Other than her flight suit, it remains unclear how Galactica-Sharon will be distinguished from other Eights.

== Analysis ==
*We learn a little bit more about the nature of the various humanoid Cylons here. Apparently a single copy is usually qualified to speak for its entire model. Interestingly, [[Caprica-Six]] was unable to dissuade her "sisters" from voting to execute the dissidents.
*As one of the Cavils notes, adherence to the Cylon creed has become increasingly perfunctory. The Cylons sought the President's signature as a mere formality.
*If Leoben's story is true, [[Kacey]] can't be older than 16 months. As of this episode, it has been about 27 months since the fall of the colonies. Kara's incarceration at the [[Farms|Farm]] on Caprica took place about two months after the fall of the colonies.
*Even if Ellen's actions are as reprehensible as ever, her motivations this time around are rather more laudable. These two episodes seem to indicate that she truly does care for her husband.

== Notes ==
*"[[Occupation]]" and "Precipice" is edited as one 2-hr episode with only one intro. However, in the podcast, [[Ronald D. Moore]] indicates the "beginning" of "Precipice" as the scene with Baltar and Roslin in the detention cell.
*In the podcast, [[Ronald D. Moore]] states that references to "The Twist" and "The Swirl" are a homage to ''[[Wikipedia:Seinfeld |Seinfeld]]''. The episode in question is "The Fusille Jerry".
*Felix Gaeta's given name, first revealed in "[[Final Cut]]", is spoken out loud for the first time.
*Caprica-Sharon has married Karl Agathon and taken his last name. She continues to be confined to her cell, but it has been decorated and furnished. Ironically enough, she still calls him "Helo".
*Sharon Agathon and William Adama have continued to develop the rapport which they established in "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]". In this episode, he comissions her as a lieutenant and apparently releases her from her cell.
*Anders and Caprica-Sharon last saw each other at the end of "[[The Farm]]", although it's possible that they had a reunion after his rescue from Caprica and before his settlement on New Caprica.
*Number Three's claim that Caprica-Six's assault on her was the first case of Cylon-on-Cylon violence in their history is not really true. Sharon Agathon shot and "killed" another Eight outside the Delphi spaceport on Caprica. The Cylons may not look on this in the same light because it was within one model. Alternatively, Number Eight may have been unable to identify her shooter. This is plausible because she was looking at Helo when she was shot, and afterwards could only stare up into the sky for a few seconds before dying and presumably downloading.
**Actually, Sharon Agathon also shot a Six previous to that, but we may presume that Six consented as part of the Cylons' plan for Helo.
*Ironically, a Five shoots Caprica-Six in the head shortly after Three's statement. Cavil indicates, however, that she won't be "boxed", as Caprica feared in "[[Downloaded]]".
*The shooting of the captives and Cally's escape at the end of the episode are an homage to ''[[Wikipedia:The Great Escape|The Great Escape]]''.
*Baltar's Internal Six appears only after Caprica-Six is killed.
*This episode has the second highest number of Guest Stars. The highest being the [[Miniseries]].

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

*''After being arrested, held without charge and carted to a remote location:''
:'''Tom Zarek''': Laura.. That election last year. You tried to steal it, didn't you?
:'''Laura Roslin''': Yes, Tom. I did.
:'''Tom Zarek''': (laughs) Ah... I wish you'd gone through with it.

== Official Statements ==

== Guest Stars ==
*[[Lucy Lawless]] as [[Number Three]]
*[[Matthew Bennett]] as [[Number Five]]
*[[Callum Keith Rennie]] as [[Leoben Conoy]]
*[[Rick Worthy]] as [[Simon]]
*[[Dean Stockwell]] as [[Cavil]]
*[[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]]
*[[Alessandro Juliani]] as [[Felix Gaeta]]
*[[Luciana Carro]] as Lt. [[Louanne Katraine]] ([[Kat]])
*[[Leah Cairns]] as Lt. [[Margaret Edmondson]] ([[Racetrack]])
*[[Tahmoh Penikett]] as Lt. [[Karl Agathon]] ([[Helo]])
*[[Christian Tessier]] as [[Tucker Clellan]] ([[Duck]])
*[[Nicki Clyne]] as [[Cally Henderson Tyrol]]
*[[Aaron Douglas]] as [[Galen Tyrol]]
*[[Michael Trucco]] as [[Samuel Anders]]
*[[Kandyse McClure]] as [[Anastasia Dualla]]
*[[Dominic Zamprogna]] as [[James Lyman]] ([[Jammer]])
*[[Brad Dryborough]] as Lt. [[Hoshi]]
*[[Rekha Sharma]] as [[Tory Foster]]
*[[Michael Hogan]] as [[Saul Tigh]]
*[[Kate Vernon]] as [[Ellen Tigh]]

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: RDM]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Ronald D. Moore]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Sergio Mimica-Gezzan]]

Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions

2006-05-11T23:55:44Z

Bp: /* Outline rules */

Because of their length, individual discussions which we believe have reached consensus have been archived.
As further discussions are concluded, please move them to the archive as well, in order to keep this page topical and readable. If the first archive threatens to exceed 32 kilobytes, please create a new one. See [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page]] for details.

'''Previous discussions:'''

*[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01|Archive 1 (September 10th, 2005 to November 31st, 2005)]]:

:[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Verb Tense|Verb Tense]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Ship Naming, Abbrevation and Capitalization Standards|Ship Naming, Abbrevation and Capitalization Standards]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Signing Your Work|Signing Your Work]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Spelling|Spelling]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Single-name Address|Single-name Address]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Episode Links and Formatting|Episode Links and Formatting]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Proposed Guidelines for Dispute Resoluton on Speculative Matters|Proposed Guidelines / Speculative Matters]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Quorum of Twelve|Quorum of Twelve]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Namespaces|Namespaces]]

*[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive02|Archive 2 (December 1st, 2005 to Present)]]:

:[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive02#Disambiguation|Disambiguation]]


----

== Image Sizes ==

I tend to think that images that are whole-screen captures (and thus letterbox dimensions) should be about 300px wide. This is, however, based entirely on how that looks on my browser window, which is pretty large, but not maximized on a 1280x1026 resolution. So that might look horrid on some other screen. Anyway, with that in mind, I resize all my full-screen captures to be 600px wide since that's a nice two times what I think they should be viewed at. Should I be even thinking this way, or should I just be telling the articles to be thumbs and set my preferences for larger thumbs? In the case of cropped screen-caps, though, I think 300px is too wide, or rather, often too tall. How do others think on this? --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:21, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

:Yes, use your preference settings for this. FWIW, I'm a fan of judicious cropping. It helps make smaller thumbs more legible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:28, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

:: If you're trying to illustrate something specific, sure, cropping is needed in most cases. However, for episode pages and, I think, when trying to show a scene, the whole screen is good for its sense of context. I could be wrong. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:09, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

== Image Credit ==

Okay... Most images are gonna be screen caps we get from the shows. In which case the credit should go directly to the SciFi Channel, SkyOne Network or Universal Studios. The question is, which one? Or should it be all three? Or does Universal own the two channels and so saying "Cedit: SciFi/SkyOne" is enough? Or... What do you guys think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:56, 21 September 2005 (EDT)
: Universal Studios. They own the copyright. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:26, 23 September 2005 (EDT)
:: Following wikipedia's example, we don't need to credit image copyrights in-text, do we? It should be enough to note copyright status on the image's description page. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:27, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

== The Freakin' Quote-o-Matic ==

It's not very -o-Matic, is it? ;o) Anyway, I think we need a standard for how they're formatted. I prefer the following:

:"The line, in normal-weighted text, enclosed in double quotes."

:--''Rank and Name in Italics'' ("Episode Name")

It would also be nice to figure out how to go and look at quotes entered for days other than the current day. What do others think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 19:00, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

::As far as looking at previous quotes, that's a Joe question, though it would be welcome. Joe mentioned that the template info has to be added manually, but a creative wikipedia might work something out from a large database. At first I added at most 2 lines as a quote, but now I stick to one quote. I think the style you noted worked well (it did for my two contributions this week), so let's see if we all say so. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:50, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

::: Well, if you want to keep track of all the quotes, why not just add them to [[:Category:Quotes]]? Theoretically, every quote should then be linked from that category page. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:44, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: However, it's a bit late for quotes already put up, no? --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:49, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: Wait. Is [[Quotes|this page]] automated somehow? If so, then a Quotes category is kind of moot. I remember looking at it a while ago, though, and it having no date information and just a single quote in it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 13:04, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

On second thought, I prefer this:

:"The line, in normal-weighted text, enclosed in double quotes."
:--Rank and Name in Normal (''Episode Name'')

For full exchanges I think something like this would work:

:'''Rank and Name 1:''' Humorous battle banter aimed at Speaker 2.
:'''Rank and Name 2:''' Scathing insult.
:'''Name 1:''' Pithy retort.
:--''Episode Name''

What do you guys think of this? If no one replies in a few days, I'll start soliciting opinions on people's talk pages and via AIM. After a few more days, I'll simply make an executive decision and put this policy up. I think it would be best to link it at the head of the [[Quotes]] page, too. When the time comes. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:05, 28 October 2005 (EDT)

::Day, I've been adapting that format (per your original thoughts) and I find it works well. My only problem is insuring a proper break between the quote(s) and the name and episode for single-quotation blocks. I think this thing has languished long enough to put up a quick vote or 5-day consensus/no-objection period, where we can make this the practice (and retrofit all recorded quotes to match if necessary). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 1 November 2005 (EST)

::: COnsider this that period. Also, do you mean you like the break, but you're concerned about adding it for some reason that I do not understand, or do you mean that your dislike tags? --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:46, 1 November 2005 (EST)

:::: Okay. I'm about to put my above policy up. I think I'll have to play with it for a bit to get the display format the way I want it for ease of copying and for users who know nothing of HTML. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:02, 11 November 2005 (EST)

::::: I would suggest putting this policy (when it is finalized) and a note about not repeating quotes right on the [[Quotes]] page where the "This is a list of quotes..." statement is. [[User:Nwobkwr|Nwobkwr]] 19:59, 17 November 2005 (EST)

I noticed that people have started putting in quotes from the original series. I think this is great but in terms of standardization I would follow the same idea as used on the [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Main_Page Memory Alpha wiki]:
* If it is an original series episode, quote as [[TOS]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
* If it is a 1980 series episode, quote as [[1980]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
* If it is a re-imagined series episode, quote as [[RDM]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
[[User:Nwobkwr|Nwobkwr]] 13:46, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:Not a bad idea, Nwobkwr, but it might get cumbersome. Might I suggest we use only the "TOS" flag for TOS and 1980 episodes, and leave the RDM episodes as-is? This gives a slant to the current series, but then, we will have many more quotes from RDM than from the old series since transcripts of the TOS/80 shows are far less available than the current. It also saves on visual complexity. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:30, 30 November 2005 (EST)

::I think we should put the dab in the episode credit, and only when there are episodes in each series with the same title. (basically, "The Hand of God".) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:53, 30 November 2005 (EST)

Another thing to consider. In light of [http://battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=Template:Quote_of_the_Day/09_30&curid=3654&diff=19411&oldid=19408 this] quote, should we allow non-BSG quotes on a longer-than-one-shot basis? I think it would be okay, but others (obviously) don't. I'd like a few more opinions and some actual discussion, rather than just editing. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:00, 13 December 2005 (EST)

== Links ==

So, in my opinion, the first occurance of nearly any proper noun should be a link. Even the thing an article is about. This means that the first occurance of an article's topic will be in bold, which I think is nice. For longer articles, I think linking becomes kind of discretionary. If someone hasn't been mentioned (or linked, maybe) in a while, then they could/should be linked. Also, episode credits at the end of an event description should ''always'' be linked. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:19, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:Using links-to-self to bold title text is discouraged by the Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Article titles|Manual of Style]]. In general I think we should defer to Wikipedia for guidance except where we feel a justified need to explicitly contradict them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:02, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:: Ah. I think that's probably wise. Should we, then, manually '''bold''' them (or, in the case of ship names, '''''bold-italicize''''' them), or leave it out all together? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:40, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:::Manually bold. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:41, 2 October 2005 (EDT)

== HTML ==

I, ah, didn't think this was exactly necessary, but, uh... I think, now, it might be. Do we need to make a note about preffering <nowiki>''</nowiki> to ? I see various posts that have several changes, but leave the HTML intact. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:51, 21 October 2005 (EDT)
: Agreed. Wiki sytnax should always supersede HTML sytnax. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:29, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
: Adendum: By the way, I created two templates: {{tl|s}} and {{tl|u}} for <del>striking out</del> and underlining text, respectfully. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:36, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
::HTML isn't exactly tasteful, but isn't it preferable to templates? HTML and wikisyntax both retain their formatting if moved to another wiki, but anything formatted with templates won't. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:17, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
::: Good point, Peter... Maybe "hacking" MediaWiki might be an option, so as to create wikisyntax for underlining? Yes, this would undoubtedly create similar problems, but if a patch was submitted to the MediaWiki developers then they may introduce it (or something like it) into future versions of the software. Just a thought... -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:58, 22 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: What would you have the Wiki Markup be? Underscores and dashes, maybe? Might be dangerous, but perhaps it would require two of each in a row? Or three? I was thinking that _underline_ would render underline and that -strike- would render <s>strike</s>. However, I don't want underscores to mess up URLs or for strike-outs to mess up use of the em-dash, which is often substituted by the double-en dash (--). I'd just as soon use the HTML tags (except that it would get in the way of validating the HTML of the Wiki in XHTML 1.0 Strict, if that's a concern). Maybe we could use !!underline!! and !!!strike!!! or something. Ohoh! What about ``underline`` and ```strike```. Of course... you could go nuts and <nowiki>'''''`````italic bold underline strike`````'''''</nowiki> for '''''<s>italic bold underline strike</s>'''''. Sounds like a fighting more from some anime. Heh. --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:52, 23 October 2005 (EDT)

::::: The biggest one I saw a problem was with the Overview's in each of the episode's. I was seeing all the time. So.. that's my two cents. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 17:59, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== Verb Tense 2 ==

While it may be a "convention" within fiction articles about an episode, the verb tense issue is not using present-tense within an encyclopedia unless something is still ongoing. As I posted in the main page talk page and on a user whom made me aware of the verb tense issue, I posit that this convention be changed for the actual entries for the people, places, things. In other words, in the episode pages, the verb tense would stay as it is, but the verb tense in the individual article entries for say "Gaius Baltar" which would be the encyclopedic entry on him, would follow the norms and conventions used in other encyclopedias. That convention being, again using Gauis Balter's entry, the descriptions of Baltar's background, and events which have already occurred on Caprica, etc. be in the past-tense, whereas referring to him as the Vice-President, and duties onboard Galcatica, etc. would be present-tense since this is the current state within the timeline of the show at present. This would of course be edited as events unfold within the show. If for example he is removed form office as VP, then the verb tense would change for that piece of information as well as adding in how he stopped being VP, etc.

Likewise passages about say the development of the Mark II Viper would be past-tense, while the current disposition and capabilities of the Mark II would be present-tense. Not trying to be overly pedantic, but if we were to use and adopt the convention that this "encyclopedia" were to be discussing things and concepts within BSG as if it "were real" so-to-speak, like say in a present day encyclopedia would describe the development of the F-14 Tomcat in past-tense terms but describe current description of the presently active variants of the F-14 (i.e. the F-14D) and its deployment and present status within the arsenal of the United States Navy, it would be present-tense. Contrast that with descriptions of say, a WWII German Stuka Bomber which would all be past-tense in a current day encyclopedia.

This sort of tense usage within things such as the ''Star Trek'' technical manuals, Omnipedia's etc., which match he tense usage of current "real world" encyclopedias. Again, not trying to be a bull in a china shop as the new guy on the block, but it is rather jarring to read encyclopedic entries which do not follow the verb tense conventions used in "real world" ones. [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 22:54, 1 December 2005 (EST)

:I can see why you feel that way, but past tense sounds horrible in a literary criticism context, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect "star trek encyclopedia"-style articles to be free of critical analysis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:26, 1 December 2005 (EST)

::I am not suggesting that the past tense be used in the literary criticism and or episode entries or sections, but in the encyclopedia type entries. It isn't just the ''Star Trek'' encyclopedias but encyclopedias et all which use the past tense for historical or background content and present tense about current status content. In other words, in all encyclopedias (and I post those style content sections here) would say:

:::"Bill Clinton was born ''(past tense)'' in Hope Arkansas, and was elected President in 1992 ''(past tense)'' and after leaving office ''(past tense)'' now lives ''(present tense)'' in the State of New York and has ''(present tense)'' offices in New York City."

::If he were to move to Anchorage Alaska to live and had offices in Juno Alaska this would be updated in a real encyclopedia to read:

:::"Bill Clinton was born ''(past tense)'' in Hope Arkansas, and was elected President in 1992 ''(past tense)'' after leaving office he lived ''(past tense)'' in the State of New York and had ''(past tense)'' offices in New York City, on Dec 2nd, he moved ''(past tense)'' to Alaska and now lives ''(present tense)'' in Anchorage and has ''(present tense)'' offices in Juno."

::To use present tense throughout this site, to be honest it reads awkward in many places. Not to mention that it does shatter the kinda cool suspension of disbelief aspect to have an encyclopedia ''Galactica''. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 00:38, 2 December 2005 (EST)

:::The idea of a fictional "encyclopedia Galactica" is patently not this site's goal. We document plenty of in-canon stuff, certainly, but we have a great quantity of content given over to actors, writers, behind-the-scenes material, critical analysis, and three or four different incarnations of the series. I don't have any interest in working toward the false document mystique, personally. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:35, 2 December 2005 (EST)

:::: Well for me personally, that is 9/0ths of the appeal of wanting to work on things at this site. Particularly since BSG in its re-=imagined form is a rich subject to do just that, because of the attention to detail and "realism" as the underlying ethos of the show. Having a robust wiki that reenforces and builds out upon that quality of the show is, to my mind, ideal. Not saying you have to want that to, but it is a real cold shower for me perosnally. Just my 2/100ths of a cubits worth. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::I can appreciate Lestatdelc's arguments on using present-tense, and it took me a bit to digest, but I agree with the standing convention. I've recently discovered the Star Trek Memory Alpha wiki (wow, and to think such a wiki could be done is amazing to me) and reviewed a few pages at random. Many use past tense there, but some, like the page on the excellent episode, [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Enterprise_Incident "The Enterprise Incident"], is successfully written in present-tense. I suspect that Memory Alpha hasn't a verb tense convention there, but note how the active-tense generates a feel of the characters ''doing'' something, rather than being "historical". As Peter explained to me, fictional characters are always in the act of doing something each time you read or watch them--and after a time I realized how correct he was--it keeps the characterization alive to me and to the article. The use of the verb tense also makes it more challenging to write the article as good fiction tends to evolve--in an active voice. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:15, 2 December 2005 (EST)

::::::But we in theory are not advancing the story but discussing what has occurred on the show and describing the details of the universe presented in the show (as well as "about the show(s) themselves). If we take the notion of suspension of disbelief at face value, and imagine the events of BSG not being fiction and documenting the events and details there of, particularly in encyclopedic form we would present events which have occurred as past tense, and present status and ongoing things in present tense. What Peter has said up-thread is that there is no interest in such a thing for him personally (and it would seem that most concur) I would consider it unfortunate as this is a great missed opportunity. I think that such "false document" mystique is actually something that has rather large appeal, witness the massive industry of such things in the ''Star Trek'' fandom, from blueprints, tech manuals, omnipedias, and the entire supplemental industry to the RPG medium. As for other projects about fictional stories and their universes, I would point to things like the [http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp The Encyclopedia of Arda] which is based on the Tolkien universe. I don't wish to be a disrupting presence here, especially being a "nugget" as it were, but I think this is a bad call for a missed opportunity. I can envision a clear convention which would allow for discussing each incarnation of the series and the "about the show" aspect in tandem with the "in universe" repository of content about said universe in the style of such things as the Trek universe things of Omnipedia, Concodrance, Tech Manuls, etc. and the Arda/Tolkien examples. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::: If one cares to review the earlier verb tense discussion, I originally thought past tense was the Way To Go. However, now I stand with the current convention (I think this is also displayed in the past discussion, but I'm too lazy to check). I agree with the present-tense being used to talk about, say, the ''Oddesey'' or ''The Matrix'' or ''Friends'' or whatever, but those aren't, to me, the most compelling points, good as they may be. The compelling point is, once again, that I'm lazy. The amount of man-hours it would take to update the tense in every character bio every week while the show's not on hiatus is, well, a lot. We have a hard enough time with the stuff that's already within scope and I don't see Lest's reasons as nearly as compelling as the three against: Added workload, literary precedent, and more "alive" feel (to borrow Spence's word). And, more specifically, I, too, find the false-documentary idea only "eh" at best. The new series is shot in a way that kind of feels like a documentary, but let's leave that to them and let's us do our own thing. And, in any case, how would one account for multiple series and spoilers in a documentary? Bleh. We might have to start talking in alternate realities or [[railgun|adaptive physics]] if we went down ''that'' road. ;) --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:24, 3 December 2005 (EST)

:::::: Well we would be updating the character entries anyway as new events unfold, and placing those events in past tense as they are entered is no more work than putting them there in present tense. The only distinction would be what is currant and ongoing status. For example "Gaius Baltar is the VP in the government" which stays like that until events change that, which would be editing that entry to add whatever event changed that anyway. In fact having both be present tense would be really awkward from a readers perspective. I would also point out that it is not "false documentary" so much as "false document" i.e. if there were an up-tp-the-minute encyclopedia that covered the vast array of things '''within''' that BSG universe that was "passed through" the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proscenium proscenium] to us here, that is the style of content about the things within the show which I posit, should be presented in the relevant verb-tense. And the "outside the proscenium" content, about the show, the actors, episode summary, analysis, and comparisons between series, etc. would all be in the present tense which, I agree is much more natural and engaging. I don't honestly see it as more work once the bulk of such tense resolution is done to the exiting content where needed, and as I have posited (probably to the point you guys wanna toss me out the nearest door me already, sheepish grin) would hold much more appeal to me and I am sure others of whom it is demonstratively evident there is an audience for, otherwise fandom and official creation of things like blueprints, tech manuals, etc. for other series stuff, which is presented as if they were "genuine documents" from said universe depicts in those various shows, would not be so prevalent. Again, not trying to be cantankerous or difficult. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::::: I would also really prefer past tense. Like Lestatdelc says, it creates the feel of the article being real. Starwars Wiki always uses past tense, and refers to the articles as being written "in-universe", which to me sums up why past tense is so good. Writing is present tense sounds like someone is writing the events as they watch them on TV, which kind of takes you out of it. Also, I personally find present tense just seems really clumsy. It's like reading a little childs picture book (without so many pictures, and uh, bigger words :) ). Day makes an good point about keeping with the documentary style, and as for alternate series and spoilers, just check how starwars wiki handles non-canon and spoilers. It would be a bit of work to change, but not too much if lots of people work on it. One more point, it might be easier to convince those who are new here to write in past-tense than in present-tense (which seems like an uphill battle). Anyone else agree, or are us pro-past-tense people just in the minority here?--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 22:13, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::As I've stated above, the "in-universe" conceit does not appeal to me at all. Present tense prose is more difficult to write than past tense, but I think the results are crisper and sound more professional. The process forces one to pay closer attention to their writing style.
::::::::As for your comment about convincing "those who are new here to write in past-tense", I find that notion troubling. This matter is such that there can only be one standard. The purpose of the Standards and Conventions process is (naturally) to create and promulgate a consistant style. If you wish to change the policy, discussion here is the place to effect it, not through unilateral action. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:34, 16 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::You've misunderstood me, I was merely suggesting a change - one which I don't expect will happen, and I'm fine with that. My comment was that at the moment people are coming in and writing past-tense, and having to be told to write in present-tense as they have not read these standards. I was saying that one advantage of changing the standard to past-tense would be that they would probably not have to be told. I'm not about to tell people to go against the standard - that we have one standard is more important than what it is anyway.--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 00:11, 17 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::: I also think that present tense sounds more academic. As has been noted before (more than once), this style was initially adopted chiefly because that is the accepted academic style when writing about works of fiction. This is one of the ways in which we attempt to be encyclopedic. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:55, 17 January 2006 (EST)

== Ranks and Locations ==

Okay. So I was playing this [[Quotes:09 29|this quote]] and I ran into an issue. In Civillian Speak, I'd call Apollo "''[[Galactica]]'''s [[CAG]], Captain [[Lee Adama]]", but I have an inkling that in Military Speak he'd be something like "[[CAG]] (''[[Galactica]]''), Cpt. [[Lee Adama]]" or whatever. You'd only use this when needing to differentiate him from, say, the [[CAG]] (''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''), but we might want to. Same goes for [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] and [[Laird]]. Does someone with a better grasp of military (specifically US Naval, if possible) conventions with respect to this have a suggestion on what kind of convention we should adopt? I'd love it if it didn't conflict with the current Quote of the Day episode convention (since ''Pesgasus'' is half of the ships this is likely to apply to), but we can always change the QotD thing, if we have to. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:04, 6 December 2005 (EST)

:I've tended to use the military abbreviation style as the Army used that I learned while a civilian employee.
::ADM, CDR, MAJ, COL, CPT, LT, LTJG, ENS
::CPO, SGT, PVT, SPC
::Deck Hand, Recruits have no specific abbreviation I can find.

:All caps, no spaces or punctuation. There should be plenty of Internet resources for this. And RDM has already noted the format he used, taking it mostly from the Original Series and his military experience. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:15, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:: Enlightening (and I'm just glad someone replied to this at all), but somewhat tangental to my wonderment. I guess it was really about how we're supposed to specify where people are assigned when they have a specific role. In "Pegasus" Tigh and Fisk are both Colonels, but they're ''also'' both XOs, so for would we call one "COL Tigh (XO, ''Galactica'')" and the other "COL Fisk (XO, ''Pegasus'')"? Or what? --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:49, 18 January 2006 (EST)

::: They would be referred to as ''Galactica'' XO and ''Pegasus'' XO repectively. They're referred to by position first, not by name. Unit, Position, rank, name. [[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 16:02, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:::: So, I guess, with relation to the quotes, we don't really need to say where given characters are assigned... I don't know why I'd gotten that need into my head, really. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:59, 18 January 2006 (EST)

== Image Format ==

Mostly, the images I upload have been .jpg files. That's just what I tend to use on the web by default. However, because we scale our images a lot (i.e. all out thumbs), would it be more prudent to use .png formatting which, I hear, scales better? And, if that's so, should we make a note on this page about preferred image formatting (though, as long as it shows up alright, I don't see why we'd discriminate)? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:09, 23 December 2005 (EST)

:Most imprudent. PNG is far less efficient at compressing photographic images than JPEG. All image scaling is handled by the wiki software, and based on the original JPEG, so no significant generational degredation should exist.
:PNG has its own distinct uses, and is much better than JPEG at line art and schematics. I think this is commonly understood by most internet users, and I don't think that we need an explict policy on it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 23 December 2005 (EST)

== Image Control Station ==
I was working on identifying and classifying unused images that have been uploaded, rather than deleting them outright (at Peter Farago's suggestion). While I started this with the intention of it being something I could handle myself, it has been suggested that it might merit a project or sub-project. I wanted to see if there was any consensus for a project that:

"would take over the Images section of Standards and Conventions (since that's not really where that shouold live, ultimately), and it would cross-coordinate with Characters. I'd want to call it something like Aft Image Control or Auxilliary Image Control... Or, failing those series-references, the Ministry of Images ([[Battlestar Wiki talk:Island of Misfit Images#Project?|Day]])."

Potentially I would move [[Battlestar Wiki:Island of Misfit Images|Island of Misfit Images]] to a Project namespace with a more Galactica-themed title, but it would be a subpage/project of the Image Control Station (to avoid slamming bandwidth-challenged folks that might stumble across the Control Station). The actual control station would be more of a place that coordinate all the image related project pages (present and future).

So the main options I'm proposing are, a project page for Images in general with a subproject for misfit images, just a project/subproject for the misfit images (and we'll link to it from somewhere), or just leave it in Steelviper's user space. (Though I'm open to other ideas as well). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:30, 18 January 2006 (EST)

: I'm, perhaps obviously, in favor of an entire images project. It could also consume Requested Images and have a section for images that we have, but might need bigger/less blurry/just better versions. I think, too, it should probably eat the "List of Characters Wanting Pictures" over at Characters, and have a link to it from there, instead. I mean... while we're doing all this, if we do. However, I think another few opinions are needed before diving off and making the page and doing all this moving and cross-linking, etc. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:30, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::I'm in favor of moving Steelviper's Island of Misfit Images to the Battlestar Wiki namespace, under its current title. I'd like requested images to remain a separate page, although they should be cross-linked to each other. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:39, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::: Why's that, Peter? Just for ease of finding for new users or so that all those images aren't on the requested page (we were thinking, or I was, that the Island would be a sub-page of whatever project it became part of) or what? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:05, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::It's no favor to my position that I can't articulate my point well, but I just don't feel that either image requests or image deletions would be a logical subcategory of the other. Better just to have Image Requests refer users to check the Island before making a request, and the Island refer users to Image Requests before deleting an image. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:47, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::: Hrm. I see your point, but I wasn't thinking that one would be, well, inside the other, for lack of a better phrase. I was more thinking of a hierarchy like this:

::::: '''Images Project'''
:::::* Requested Images
:::::** Characters
:::::** Episodes
:::::** Locations
:::::** Equipment
:::::** etc.
:::::* Island of Misfit Images
:::::** As currently organized
:::::* Images needing improvement
:::::** Characters
:::::** Episodes
:::::** etc.
:::::* Images to be deleted

::::: It's not precisely clear there, but they're all on the same level, I'd just put the Misfits on a page of their own to keep load times to a minimum. Maybe that's too ambitious, though? Anyway, now if you disagree, I at least am certain you know precisely what you're disagreeing with. I'm not sure I was entirely clear before. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:10, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::::What goes on the hub then, besides links to the sub-pages? I do agree that an "images needing improvement" category or project would be good for when we ultimately want to upgrade from TV captures to DVD screenshots. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:18, 20 January 2006 (EST)

Any updates on this? So far the only action proposed (by somebody other than the guys trying to sell the "Control Station") is moving the island to the BW namespace. It's been around long enough that I'd be comfortable doing that if there is consensus that it belongs there. People might be more willing to hack and slash on it if it were out of my user area (even though people are already welcome to tear into it). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:46, 27 January 2006 (EST)

:Please, go ahead with this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:48, 27 January 2006 (EST)

== Dates ==

Do we have a convention for dates? I am referring here to ''Earth'' dates; i.e., those pertaining to the production, such as brodcasts and DVD releases. I have seen at least these four: "Jan 20 2006", "January 20 2006", "20 January 2006", and "January 20th, 2006". Which is preferred? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 03:46, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:Note sure. Didn't know if it really mattered. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:02, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: Personally, I prefer "4 January 2006", but that's me. I think having the whole month out is goo, whichever order we decide on. Normal American convention is "January 4, 2006". So... that's my two cubits. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:13, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::I'm partial to the "4 January 2006" format, myself. M/D/Y is a crime against civilized mathematics. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:19, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::I agree too. Plus, the M/D/Y format may be more confusing to non-US readers. (For example the UK does D/M/Y)[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 17:26, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::::For what it's worth, as I was going through all the eposide info boxes, I found the majority to be in "January 4 2006" style, so I attempted to unify to that format as I went along. I agree with the mathematical elegance of D/M/Y, however, and I dislike the comma and the ordinal number. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 18:34, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::::: Yeah. Ordinals suck. I don't care whether we put the date before the month or after, as long as it's clear what each piece of data is. The only argument for using ##/##/#### is to ease the understanding of non-English-speaking people, but--if we want to do that, we need to make translations for the whole Wiki. --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:38, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:::::: Y-M-D, all numeric, is easily the nicest for sorting, so I'd say it's the one with "mathematical elegance" by virtue of its computer science elegance. That said, "10 March 2006" is the nicest for instant reading clarity and agrees with the output of <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. Commas are a waste, and ordinals would be horrific.
:::::: Anyway, someone should actually put up a consensus if this counts as one; I don't mind going through and standardizing them some day relatively soon. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 11:53, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:So, have we decided what date format is to be used? --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 04:58, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== Battle pages ==

I realize that although I created the battle pages, I never clearly set out the format they should take. Basically, they try to imitate real world battle pages at Wikipedia as much as possible. Using this, I created battle boxes for the entire Lord of the Rings battles series, then just re-applied it here. I'm going to be revamping the boxes in the next few days (no info changes, just formatting changes, nudging, etc. little fixes). However, because they should try to follow real world battle, they should try to stick as closely as possible to these. Long story short, there are 3 basic categories that an "engagement" should fall into:

* A) Battle - large scale engagements
* B) Skirmish - small scale, but noteworthy, engagements
* C) On *''rare''* occasion, alternative names can be used. This largely consists of the "[[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]" which was less a battle a more of a slaughter. This was then re-applied to the "Fall of the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards" because it was part of the larger "[[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]". But this was really an exception, for reasons which I think are obvious. I mean, if ever the Galactica crew destroys the entire [[Cylon homeworld]] with a [Wikipedia:Christopher Blair|Temblor Bomb] in season 5 or so, we'd call it the "Fall of the Cylon Homeworld", but otherwise this term is reserved only for engagements resulting in massive damage. Another notable exception is the "[[Great Cylon Turkey Shoot]]"; you see the Battle of the Philippine Sea is so commonly known as the "Great Marianas Turkey Shoot", and RDM said it was directly inspired by this, that I thought it fitting to alter the name to fit that (that, and it took place in an unspecified region of interstellar space, and Basetars don't often have names. I mean, if a Basetar named "''Truth and Reconiciliation''", this battle would be called "Battle of the ''Truth and Reconciliation''" or something. But the engagement in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]" didn't have this. However, "[[Battle of the Resurrection Ship]]" ''did'' have a notable ship with a name in it, so it became "Battle of...etc".

Further ground rules to lay out are what actually deserves an article: officially, "[[Skirmish over the Red Moon]]" is about the smallest engagement we're ever really going to make a page for. Generally, something deserves an article if:

*1) A Colonial ship is destroyed (Vipers, Raptors, etc). They can't easily be replaced, and the loss of even one can be considered a blow. (The upcoming engagements in "[[Scar]]" might be a skirmish instead of a battle, depends how many ships are involved at once).
*2) A massive number of Cylon vessels is destroyed, making the engagement a noteworthy event. For example, the "[[Great Cylon Turkey Shoot]]" resulted in no Colonial losses ''whatsoever'', yet so many Cylons (hundreds of ships) were destroyed that it warrants it's own page.

An example of something that would ''not'' deserve it's own page is like when 2 Raiders were destroyed in "[[Final Cut]]", with no Colonial losses. No personnel or ships were lost, and the losses to the Cylons were insignificant in the extreme (considering that they still have production facilities and the Colonials do not).

As a rule of thumb, any engagement that involves a Battlestar or a Basestar firing it's own guns at the enemy is a "Battle" (Battle of the Coral Sea was a full scale battle, yet no enemy ships directly engaged each other; just fighters). However, if a Battlestar launches Vipers, but doesn't actually get involved in a small scale fight against enemy fightercraft, it's ''probably'' not a battle (case in point, "[[Skirmish over the Red Moon]]".

Nextly, we have the matter of Commanders and Casualties. We don't know who the heck is commanding the Cylon Fleet or if there are "commanders" in the sense we think of aboard the Basestars. Thus they should be left as "unknown" (though if a Basestar is destroyed, you can assume the "commander" died, also if the entire Cylon force is wiped out). Mind you, if we ever see Number Six standing in a Basestar giving orders during a battle, if she actually gives orders she may be listed as a commander. Usually, a Commander is the highest ranking person present; don't bother to list Colonel Tigh if he never actually takes over command from Adama at any point. We should list "Admiral Cain AND Commander Adama" because Adama wasn't really serving "under" her at the time but by joint agreement, etc (complicated).

Casualties are easier now in Season 2; count how many people died in the episode who were *''not''* involved in the battle, then subtract that from next week's survivor count. For example, in "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]" two people died that weren't in the battle: Admiral Cain and an unnamed ''Pegasus'' Marine. Thus, when we see the survivor count in "[[Epiphanies]]", we should subtract 2 from it, and us that as "casualties" (I got the idea from "Battle of Kobol").

"[[Battle of Kobol]]" was on the whole a messy, drawn out affair as I think you will agree. We agreed that there's a cut off point where Centurion actions in "Home, Part I" no longer count as a battle or skirmish because it was so small scale (again, no Vipers were destroyed, etc).

As for "Numbers" we are keeping a running tally of ships, though "Cylon" numbers are a little tricky. I just go with "associated Raiders and Heavy Raiders" when a Basestar is involved, when no numbers are stated on screen.

As for forces, it's "Cylons" not "Cylon Alliance" (from TOS) because we have no idea what the political structure of the Cylons is. For every battle after the massive loss of 118 Battlestars in the Fall of the Twelve Colonies, every other engagement after this is done by "Remnants of the Colonial Fleet".

I hope that sorts out stuff for now. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:01, 20 January 2006 (EST)

: That's ''awesome'', Ricimer. Now, before we put it up on the main S&C page, I think it needs some concising, though it will be key to not let it become less clear. I would suck at that job, so... please someone else volunteer. I'd also like to see the battle box become a template (as mentioned on your talk page), for ease of changing it if we need to and also for ease of CSS-ifying it so that it can change with themes, eventually. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:25, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::As noted on [[Talk:Battle of the Resurrection Ship]], I continue to prefer "Attack on" for situations where the target is named but the battleground is not. As for [[Fall of the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards]], there is no reason why "Battle of" wouldn't encapsulate that idea accurately. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:22, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::Because it's doubtful if shots were even fired by the Colonials at Scorpion; it was a one-sided slaughter, but nonetheless deserved it's own page. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:25, 20 January 2006 (EST)
::::That's a fair point. I continue to believe that "Battle of" is inappropriate when the field of battle has not been specified. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:27, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::::I'm sorry but this is the format that more or less works. "Battle" is a standard name. "Attack" sounds like a Doolittle Raid, as opposed to the MASSIVE engagement we just saw. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:30, 20 January 2006 (EST)
::::::Your ''ex cathedra'' assertions on style are unbecoming. I am interested to hear the opinions of other users, particularly Joe, who named the page in the first place. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:35, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::I fail to see what is rude about this: rather than simply editing pages as I saw fit, you ''told'' me to make a full write up of my view on the subject here, and then let consensus agree or disagree: you are chastising me, for doing as you requested? That said, not ''ex cathedrda'', but with ''plenitudo potestatis'' :) --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:54, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::::I went to Wikipedia hoping to find a definitive pattern to follow, but came up empty. [[Wikipedia:Battle#Battle naming|Naming Battles]] Apparently the british had a whole committee for this purpose ("British Battles Nomenclature Committee"). While almost all of the battles listed in Wikipedia follow the "Battle of" convention, they are always followed by a geographic reference (which we're not really going to have in this case). If we're going to name it after the resurrection ship, we might consider the outcome as well. Rather than just calling it the "Attack of", we might consider the fact that the result was its destruction. In Star Fleet Battles there was a scenario called "The Mighty Hood Goes Down" that always stuck in my mind (a Klingon ship attacks a greatly disadvantaged ''Hood'', usually resulting in its destruction). I guess that would be similar to "Fall of the Twelve Colonies." ("Destruction of the Resurrection Ship"?) Although that would certainly spoil the ending if someone hadn't seen the episode. Sorry not to be able to take a decisive stand, but hopefully some more people will weigh in. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:Good info there. Well, If it was them ''surprising the Resurrection Ship alone'', I would go with "Destruction", but instead it was an all-out battle to destroy it, case in point it's the only ever engagement between ''multiple'' Basestars and ''multiple'' Battlestars. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)
::That's a good point. With all this focus on the Resurrection ship, I lost sight of the fact that it was essentially a non-combatant. It was the strategic objective, but the actual firepower lay in the basestars and the raiders. I guess naming would have been a lot simpler if they gave us a goofy sector name like the TOS would often do (Hatari sector, etc) to use as a geographic landmark. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::I still think "Attack on the Resurrection Ship" is descriptive, succinct, and has a good ring. The fact that the actual combat didn't involve it is incidental - the Resurrection ship was the primary target, and it certainly ''was'' attacked. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 21 January 2006 (EST)\
:::"Battle of the Resurrection Ship" is just as descriptive and succinct when you think about it, and I personally believe that it has a bad ring. Funny thing was, remember when they were doing that recon mission near a moon? (orange one that they flew by in Res Ship Part I), I had hoped that would provide a location (like the Red Moon with Starbuck, etc) however, the actual battle did not take place near there at all. Of course, what WOULD we have called it? Old ''Red Dwarf'' joke about that. It's a "bluey-green planetoid"...they're ALL bluish-green planetoids! (no names, etc). At any rate, it wasn't just attacking that ship; it was a full scale battle between the Basestars and Battlestars. That said, Galactica vs. Pegasus should be deleted, because I intend on merging any relevant information into a short paragraph for "Battle of the Resurrection Ship"; I'm just busy and can't do a full write-up yet. Monday.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:32, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::::My sentiment is that "Battle of ~" should be used with the location or nucleus of a battle. I agree with previous comments that the Resurrection Ship was effectively a stationary set piece around which the battle was waged. That it was destroyed does not disqualify it from functioning as a virtual location. The time and place of the battle were directly related to the presence of the Res Ship, so I believe it functcions as a location for our purposes. Insofar as that translates to S&C, shall we say "Battle of ~" necessitates a location, but that locations can include noncombatant targets? (Even if they possess mobility.) -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 22:32, 21 January 2006 (EST)
::On the matter of survivors, we absolutely should not assume that every off-screen casualty that happens between episodes in which a battle takes place was caused by said battle, although it certainly provides an upper limit. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:24, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::Oh, I just meant "follow the pattern we already established with "[[Battle of Kobol]]", that is, say in the casualty box "XX number at most; survivor count decressed by YY, but ZZ number were scene to not die because of the battle" etc. (well, shorter than that). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:28, 20 January 2006 (EST)

== Ages ==

As has come up [[Talk:Saul Tigh#Age|elsewhere]], I'd like to get the age thing going here. I think, by and large, ages should not be included. In the case of Saul Tigh (and any others who meet these criteria after), I think we should include it. Here's my plan: The numbers ''must'' be a link to a note at the bottom citing the source of the information. If that means including a bunch of math at the bottom, so be it. If it gets too big and complex, then we can move it to, say, "Saul Tigh/Age" or whatever. This way, the information is as transparent as we can make it, without muddying up the template with justifications right there. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:29, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:FYI, footnotes do not appear to work inside the character data template. I'm not sure why. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 20 January 2006 (EST)

== Ship gender ==

Which pronouns shall we use for ships? I believe the normal convention is for friendly (for our purposes, colonial) vessels to be referred to as female, and enemy (Cylon) craft as male. IIRC this is consistent with Galactica-Boomer's terminology for the captured raider. (Thus, enemy craft repurposed to the colonials retain their masculine identity.) I would suggest that gender-neutral pronouns for ships should be avoided when possible, if only as a matter of taste. Thoughts? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 18:16, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I believe the current convention is the female for all ships ([[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions#Ships]]). I've not heard of using male for enemy ships. I do agree that gender neutrality ought to be avoided, if only to make it easier to translate into Spanish (I'm not very familiar with gender neutrality in that language, other than generally defaulting to masculine). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I've never heard of enemy ships being referred to in the masculine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I must have hallucinated it, then. Very well, feminine it is. (Boy do I feel silly for missing the item in Standards and Conventions. I did a search on "gender" but somehow glossed over the big ol' heading.) Thanks for the input. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 19:17, 21 January 2006 (EST)

Perhaps this goes without saying, but I think it makes sense to leave pronouns neutral when referring to ships in a general sense or on a class basis ("If it is armed, the Blackbird likely fires the same ammunition…") and make them feminine when referring to a ship by name (''Laura'' quickly proves her worth…). Kosher? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 19:24, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:Sounds right. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:50, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:Most navies refer to their vessels in the feminine. I do know that the Russian Navy does refer to its vessels in the masculine.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:25, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::Ah! That must be where I got tangled up. I bet I read a cold war spy novel a decade ago and misremembered the convention. Thanks, Ricimer. Now... can anyone confirm that Galactica-Boomer called the captured Raider a he? If so, should all Autonomous Raiders be masculine? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 04:22, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== XHTML Compliance ==

So. We all (should) know that and are ''Bad''. However, it's (apparently) less common knowledge that all is bad as well. For the [http://www.alistapart.com/stories/doctype/ DOCTYPE] of this website, it should be . All tags must be closed in a XHTML 1.0 Transitional Doctype. I've also learned that <s> is ''equally'' bad for XHTML Documents. Apparently, the tag to be using is <del>. Just thought I'd put this up here and see if anyone had any thoughts before moving it to the S&C page. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:08, 23 January 2006 (EST)

:This would be particularly relevant if we were using a strict doctype, which, god-willing, will never happen. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:11, 23 January 2006 (EST)

:: Well, yes, I think it would be a bad idea to expect all Wiki contributers to know how to follow strict and to take the time to do it (we use tables for a lot of our formatting stuff), but While we have the Transitional Doctype, I think we should try to do at least that. --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:33, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::: If bots are enabled, I could get a bot to sit on the server and go through the pages and change tags to XHTML and then also to Wiki code.

== Policy? ==
This is policy right? Because then we can add the <nowiki>{{Policy}}</nowiki> tag on the page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 18:01, 17 March 2006 (CST)

==Replacement and retirement of the term "Humano-Cylon"==

I propose that we replace the term "[[Humano-Cylon]]" with "[[humanoid Cylon]]". The term didn't really expand much outside of BattlestarWiki; I've heard Humalon, BioCylon, Cylon Agents, etc. and other frequent combinations out there. That's not why I want to change it though. In light of the fact that there will soon be a Human/Cylon Hybrid on the show, and I've put a lot of thought into this over several days, and I can only come to the conclusion that leaving the terms as they are will lead to dreadful confusion unless changed. I mean, they were called "Humano-Cylons", "Humalons" because they're Cylons that are "like" Humans, but now we're going to have a Hybrid that is a genuine cross between the two on a cellular, nay, molecular level. I know it will take a lot of work (I'm willing to do it), but I think we should phase out "Humano-Cylon" because it was never canonical, and will be all too readily confused with the hybrid. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)
:I agree that Humano-Cylon should go. The term initially struck me as clumsy, though I didn't question it because it was so widespread in the Wiki. I wonder if we could get by with plain old "Cylon" when the context is clearly RDM; Centurions, after all, are usually called out as such. Within the world of the show, the usual term seems to be Cylon. I also feel we should avoid adopting other contrived portmanteaux (Humalon et al.) -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 05:21, 24 January 2006 (EST)
::That is a good point, and a surprisingly elegant solution. I approve. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:54, 24 January 2006 (EST)

On top of this, I think it's time that we created a page for the [[Cylon-Human Hybrid]]; info is gathering and Sharon's daughter is going to be a pivotal character eventually (consquently, I've heard that the later episode of Stargate SG-1 season 9 will focus on Vala Mal Doran (Claudia Black) returning with a "miracle pregnancy", unfortunately her daughter turns out to be the physical manifestation of the bad guys, the Ori, and she will be sort of the bad guys "messiah" figure in their 10th season. It makes you think...). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

And while I'm on the subject, I think that she should make separate character pages for Cylon "copies" that develop individual traits over time. For example, we should keep a main "Sharon Valerii" page, with stubs for the main articles for "Galactica-Sharon" and "Pegasus-Sharon". Also, Gina should probably have her own page separate from the main Number Six article, as she's differentiated into a separate character.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:I also agree we should split the Cylon copies. Perhaps (using your example) the "Sharon Valerii" page might well be nothing more than a disambiguation, and contributers would be encouraged to link directly to "Sharon Valerii (Galactica)" or "Sharon Valerii (Caprica)". Migrating all the links would be a substantial project, but one I feel is worth taking, and sooner the better. As for naming convention - it might not work every time, but perhaps the location where that copy is first introduced? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 05:21, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::This is long, so forgive me, but there are important issues that change our nature that I cannot agree to.

::Let's deal with the terminology change first. I had my qualms about "humano-Cylon" when I first saw it, but it is an efficient term to differentiate these beings from robotic Cylons here, especially given that the show has not really furnished a unique term. "Cylon Agent" is the closest that the show has used, with "human models" and "Cylon humans" after that. ''Battlestar Wiki'' has many articles that use descriptive terms as placeholders in lieu of a canonical name: "[[Presidential security service]]", "[[Identification Tags]]", and "[[Colonial wireless alphabet]]" are other examples. "Cylon agent" can be used as a placeholder redirect if one is tired of typing it, but we need more reason than "we don't like the term" to change "Humano-Cylon" now, as it appears on many, ''many'' articles here. And frankly, it's grown large enough that purging it will be very difficult. Our naming conventions are here for a reason, so making exceptions for the Sharon Valeriis diminishes our effectiveness as an encyclopedia, which MUST NOT be ambiguous, strive to keep to the basic definition and not wallow about in subdefinitions as an unnecessary article into itself--which is what you are proposing. "Humano-Cylon" is ''very'' popular here, and what goes on in the "outside world" doesn't really matter in the context of maintaining this wiki, so long as others can use their own terms and we provide appropriate redirects to our article as appropriate. I understand the spirit of what you're suggesting, but we lack a sufficient "why", in my opinion. Although I see a good reasoning between what are "Cylons" in RDM and what are "robot Cylons" that can withstand further debate, I think we should adjust the wiki as the characters do: when the characters begin to see the Cylons with human traits and not a machine to be shut down, our data here should reflect it. Otherwise, differentiating them to any large degree would be like writing bios on the "Borg" drones from "Star Trek." No point, as they are all generally the same.

::Two: Sharon's baby has '''not been born yet'''. Do ''not'' assume it will come to term. Imagine the holy hell that the Cylons will unleash if they learn that it ''doesn't''. Imagine the political hell in the Fleet if it ''does''. Either way works well for the writers, so we can't make the assumption. Ron Moore has promised some radical changes for the Fleet at the end of this season, and much of this could involve that child to be. Once we know for certain that this hybrid is born and is even given a name, then a page is quite appropriate and necessary. But until then, creating an article for this or any other hybrids or proposed character to-be goes against our sourcing policies (it's speculation until shown in an episode) and is premature (no pun intended).

::Three: To differentiate between the Valerii's and other Cylon agents is asking for trouble at present. They are identical in creation and mission; if they begin to vary on that mission, a subarticle is written. The [[Number Six]] article shows at least three variations and it appears to work well. Now, a number of articles are becoming long, true. But, as a wiki, we haven't created a policy yet as to how to break up or concise such data as it relates to these character bios. We ''have'' worked out a process for the [[Cylons (RDM)]] and [[Twelve Colonies (RDM)]] article series, which could be adopted for the characters with some thought. Changes that are more POV or assumptive like these, and less in form to the wiki's overall format or mission are detrimental, IMO. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:44, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::I don't think the show has yet provided a canonical term to distinguish the "human models" from the more mechanical models. I think "Cylon Agent" would be a good placeholder/redirect, but that's based on the writing on a folder and not consistent adoption within the show. One thing that hasn't been established well (at least in my mind) is WHO the Cylons are. Are the humanoid-cylons the new, REAL cylons (with centurions, raiders, etc. serving their interests)? Or are all models part of a true "Cylon collective" (resistance is futile) where everybody is considered equally "Cylon". If the humano-Cylons prove to be the "real" Cylons, then I would see them taking more of a prominent role at Cylons (RDM). Until then, I think that any term we use is just serving as a placeholder.

:::Even if Sharon's offspring (I'm not sure if baby is the right word) comes to term and is born, I'm not sure that Cylon-human hybrids deserve an article of their own. Peanut butter gets an article, and jelly gets an article. Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches even get an article (being a distinct, important, and common combination of the other two). However, just because somebody once made a peanut butter and tuna sandwich doesn't mean that it necesarily would merit an article. The offspring would DEFINITELY merit its own article, but until proven otherwise would be a unique proof-of-concept. All information about her would represent the totality of what we know about the hybrids, until such time that more hybrids come into being. (That is if she even comes into being. Adama may yet "drown the baby in the pond.") --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::A note on the offspring: perhaps it would be fun to create a short, amusing-but-still-relevant biography page for the fetus ("prebiography"?), noting its (can we say ";;her" because Sharon said so?) unique physiological properties, Baltar and Six's fascination with her, political ramifications of her delivery or lack thereof. A nod, if you will, to the "life begins at conception" faithful. I realize such a page could easily become political, insulting, or trivial, but I think it's worth a shot. Treating the subject like a regular character bio affords plenty of oppurtunity for ironic humor as well, as with the [[Toaster]] article. Yeah? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 14:39, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::::The Cylon-Human Hybrid article cannot be created until after the episode in which it is born. It is BattlestarWiki's firm policy to categorically deny the "life begins at conception" viewpoint and instead support the life at birth viewpoint. An embryo which is little more than a clump of cells, the potential for life, yes, but not life. Regardless, following the tenets [[Naturalistic science fiction]], BSG supports "realistic" ''science'', as opposed to "opinions". Creating the article ''before'' the child is born would undermine ''BattlestarWiki's'' established stance against "life begins at conception", and creating it before the birth would be like holding up a big sign saying "we support Life-At-Conception". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::::I hope I'm not stepping into a political debate here, because that is not my aim at all. But can you provide support for your claim that BattlestarWiki has a firm policy on this topic? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 15:00, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::''Battlestar Wiki'' has no policy on the matter of the status of a fetus, Ricimer. This is a ''non-sequitur'' that actually worsened your position, not reinforced it. In short: Don't make stuff up. Everyone here can see and (and in most cases, edit) all policies. That said, jumping down to new thread and clarification... --15:37, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::No, no, sorry; I was being really sarcastic. Sorry, I thought everyone could tell. Well, if not, "that life at conception is a policy thing I just wrote was just a sarcastic joke". I appologize for the inconvenience. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:06, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::As for the Valerii problem... I think that's going to be a tricky issue. "Caprica" Valerii does seem to behave distinctly differently from "Galactica" Valerii, and both of those differently than the other "Caprica"/command Valerii. I'm not sure it has been definitively proven whether they are unique individuals, or whether they are just playing different roles based on what the mission calls for. Personally I like the current grouping by "model", though I might more seriously rethink if their individuality/uniqueness is eventually proven. I think "Downloaded" would be pretty decisive (if it hasn't been canceled as rumored).

:::Feel free to copy my sig to any of these if you need to repond to an individual issue. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 24 January 2006 (EST)

A few points to clarify:

'''One''': I didn't suggest this simply because I "don't like" the term "Humano-Cylon". I was actually okay with the continued use of it, until the Hybrids came along. The ''*ENTIRE*'' reason I have raised this issue of changing the name is officially "'''I think it will get confused with the Cylon-Human Hybrid'''". Just wanted to clarify that.

'''Two''': I did not expect the pages to be changed immediately, and I understand that Caprica-Sharon's daughter hasn't been born yet: The reason I ''put foward'' the issue now, is so that we could have a lenghty amount of time to debate the issue and set up parameters and rules for this change here, in advance, so there will be less confusion later. Never too early to debate. I wanted to get the ball rolling.

'''Three''': Regardling the popularity and practical removal of "Humano-Cylon": How do we know it was ever "very popular"? I only used it because it was the term that this wiki was already using when I got here. Curious, can we have a show of votes here of who actually "likes" the term enough to keep it? (largely irrelevant, sorry, I'm just saying; How can we quantify it as "popular", when in the earliest days ("In the Long-Long Ago"...) BattlestarWiki used that name and redirected all future references to these begins to that page. ''Post hoc, ergo propter hoc''.

What I meant by stating that it's "not used much outsite of BattlestarWiki" is that I mean it isn't based on anything outside of this wiki, ***so we can feel free to change it without being fettered by external constraints. I mean that changing it will not contradict other material out there.

As for "practical removal", recently we gutted this entire wiki updating "Commander Adama" to "William Adama" following his promotion to Admiral. If such as pervasive name as Commander Adama can be replaced and revised, surely there will be not so great difficulty in replacing "Humano-Cylon" with "humanoid Cylon", etc. (That's my personal choice, but any other name that ''doesn't'' sound like "Humalon" or something (the Hybrid confusion, etc) would be okay after a vote).

'''Four''': The separation of Cylon copies with distinct personalities into different character pages. I was willing to ignore this through season 1, but after hearing about "Downloaded" I realized that we'd have ''two'' copies of Sharon, each distinct from both the other standard Sharon-copies AND each other, on the show. And the more I thought about it, the more I think they have finally reached the point where they need to be considered separate major characters with their own pages. ***Again, we can do this after "Downloaded" airs, I just wanted to get discussion started now, so we know what to do ahead of time. Yes, I did PLAY AROUND with creating separate pages for both two days ago (after which made the request here in standards and practices), but at the time I wanted to raise interest in the issue and experiment with how this would work.

Thoughts?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:23, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:To Spencerian's points on terminology: (1) The lack of a solid canonical term is a valid argument for keeping the old term ''only until a new term is agreed upon''. Clearly we do not wish to frivolously or rashly change the Wiki; hence this discussion. (2) The difficulty of the task is not a disqualifier, as Ricimer has stepped forward to take it on, and I'm certain others of our cadre will pitch in. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but could not a search-and-replace bot easily change such a unique term as "Humano-Cylon"? (3) I don't see how this represents an exception for Sharon Valerii. I believe we're talking about replacing the term globally. Can you elaborate on this point? (4) If you are waiting for the characters to realize cylons are not merely machines to be shut down, I assume you are referring to the mainstream colonial opinion. There are plenty of characters (Helo, Baltar, all of the Cylons, and [[Demand Peace]], who give them a bit more credit. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 14:57, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::Thanks for the clariification. On the work front, of course, the changing of the terms throughout isn't an impossible undertaking, but note that once a term is in use, it's hard to stop. In the case of the Cylons of RDM, an article is already there. To make the changes, we have to go all the way for all pages or not at all to ensure that referencing info, as well as the info itself, remains consistent. Ricimer's point #4, which I've suggested on the Valerii page, using [[Sharon Valerii]] as a disambig/parent page where subarticles for supporting characters that have appeared should keep article sizes down while organizing data well. I'm all for this idea the more I think of it. "Sharon Valerii" is like a class of ship (all generally the same), but each ship has a characteristic identity (Boomer, Caprica-Valerii), thus the parent page and subarticles for all major players. Sorry if I confused you on my thoughts on this.

::The Cylons, be they truly biological and not to be treated as machine, are still the central adversary of the Colonials. While the characters can make their judgements on what they see the Cylons to be, we as wikipedians just report what we see, ultimately--we don't make the "news". In other words, if Adama (who runs the Fleet) sees the Cylons as a threat, they still have to be reported here in that light. Helo and others may have differing opinions, which should also be added. We must spin interpretation very cautiously and not to interpret it as fact. With that, I'm in favor of "Cylon agent" (the most commonly used term in the show, IMO) for a H-O replacement, but still, "Cylons (no suffix)" may also have merit. Current aliases are still OK, but the convention would be for that. I also suggest that we form parent/child pages for each of the Cylons (see, I'm doing it already now that I understand the subtle point) to avoid confusion and oversized articles. This also prevents issues with over hyphenations: Picon-Valerii, Tauron-Valerii, Cheese Whiz-Valerii..you get the idea. And when/if the baby is born, she gets her own page as she will be quite unique (I hope). To keep from this thread going crazy again, let's go for support/oppose tags at your replies from here, with your suggestions on how or what to do with terms and page design. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:37, 24 January 2006 (EST)

===Proposal===
There will be no special term for the human models. All references to Cylons in the Re-imagined series will be taken to refer to the humans, unless prefaced with "Centurion" or other relevant distinguisher. This is in line with the show's own usage, and avoids creating a non-canon term.

The article [[Humano-Cylon]] will be deleted. Its content will be merged into [[Cylon Models]], the individual overview pages for each cylon model, and a new page on potential cylon agents, with the previously discussed "whitelist" and "graylist" sections, as relevant.

Links to Humano-Cylon will be redirected to the [[Cylons (RDM)]] article cover-page (which will be spruced up, but probably remain fairly spare), or to various subsections, as appropriate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:55, 24 January 2006 (EST)

===Counter-Proposal===
The human-appearing models of Cylon are indeed distinct enough that they deserve a special term. All references to Cylons in the re-imagined series don't necessarily refer to the humanoid models (we have no idea how these things are deployed, and in context, whe Lt. Gaeta shouts "Cylons incoming!" he's not talking about humanoid Cylons floating in space). Plent of times on the show they have made a distinction between the "mechanical variety" and "the human variety", so the "Proposal" would not, in fact, be "in line" with the show's own usage.

The article "[[Humano-Cylon]]" will remain entirely intact, but have its ''name'' changed to something else (my suggestiong would be "humanoid Cylons", but someone else might be able to come up with a better name and some ideas were tossed around above, etc). The contents of "Humano-Cylons" will not be merged. The ''already existing'' overview Character pages for the humanoid Cylon models will remain intact as they are now. There will be no new page for potential humanoid Cylons; it will remain a sub-section of the article dealing with the humanoid Cylons (as it is now). If by "whitelist" and "graylist" it is meant "people we suspect of being humanoid Cylons" and "people who it has been proven could not possibly be humanoid Cylons", such sub-headings will be added into the list of suspected Cylon Agents on "Humanoid Cylons".

Links to "Humano-Cylon" will be redirected to the new term ("Humanoid Cylon", for example, pending consensus on name). Humanoid Cylons models that have developed distinct personalities that have made them unique Characters on the show will be separated into having their own Character pages, while a stubb about these individual copies will be made in the article dealing with that particular "model" (as well as a link). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:38, 25 January 2006 (EST)

===Discussion of Proposals===
I think we may be trying to decide too many things at once. I think it would be much easier to make this decision in a couple of steps:

: A. Move all discussion of creating copy-specific pages on specific models to [[Talk:Sharon Valerii#Keeping Track of the Valeriis]], just so it doesn't get so confusing here. Really, that's the only character we're considering doing this to and once we make a decision on her, we can make that a policy without much discussion here.

: B. Do we want to change the term?

: C. What do we want to change it to?

: D. What does that entail?/Plan of Action/Enact PoA.

Now, I would not be opposed to changing the term. I agree it could be a bit confusing when/if Sharon delivers us a little halfling. One thing that's not been brought up when speaking of work load is the fact that not all references to Humano-cylons are links. So they'll be harder to track down than, say, all occurances of "Thrace, Kara". So, there'll be a lot of hand-searching, if you take my meaning, to be done. That being said, I don't think that's a reason not to change, really. What we ''do'' here is edit stuff.

On the point of C (really we could do my steps B and C together, without ''too'' much confusion), I support the change to simply Cylon. In a vast majority of cases context will make it readily apparent whether we're talking about Simon or a raider. In the few cases where we'll have to be more specific, then I think we could use "humanoid Cylon" or a "human-type Cylon" or "a Cylon of the human variety" (if you're not into the whole "brevity" thing) or any number of other circumlocutions that need not be standardized. As for changing the article name, we could make it "Cylon (human type)". I think it should continue to be an independant article because raiders and basestars have articles of their own... We just don't know what to call it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:15, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:What about putting it on the front page of [[Cylons (RDM)]]? We could list capsule descriptions of the known models there, just like The Twelve Colonies lists the individual colonies. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:21, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:For me, part of the elegance of using the simple term "Cylon" is that it doesn't limit itself to the human-looking ones, but that context will take care of that for us nearly every time. Clearly, "cylons approaching" does not mean space-walking humanoids. But neither does "Tigh is a Cylon" imply Tigh may be a centurion, or a Basestar. Let's give folks some credit. Also, I must have been confused - I didn't realize we were only discussing branching the pages for Sharon. I think at the very least, Baltar's-Psychosis-Six and Gina have different enough agenda to merit different pages. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 03:51, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:: I may have mis-understood the issue of splitting, then, but I think it's different from adopting a replacement for "Humano-cylon", so I'd rather talk about it in another place, even if it's just further down on this page. As there's another place already in use, why not consolidate discussion to that place? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:23, 25 January 2006 (EST)

== Punctuation ==

: ''Dicussion moved from [[Talk:Main Page]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] at 10:53, 5 February 2006 (EST).''

Hello, I'm new and my edits have so far been of the proofreading type (that's what I'm good at), and I've noticed a particular area of inconsistency in commas/periods and quotation marks. Since it has been decided that we shall prefer American spellings, perhaps we should also use American punctuation style, which places commas and periods inside quotation marks. I have seen them this way a few places, but I've mostly seen the British style used, which places commas and periods outside the quotation marks. I don't care either way, but I think consistency is good so there should be a guideline one way or the other. [[User:Bunchofpants|Bunchofpants]] 08:40, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: IMO British style is much, much easier, both to write and to read. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 09:43, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: Then perhaps we should declare "British style" the rule so that those of us who fret over punctuation can change the non-British occurrences to match.[[User:Bunchofpants|Bunchofpants]] 10:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)
::Welcome to the wiki, Bunchofpants. You've noted a significant inconsistancy we do, and I'm a bit guilty as well. Punctuation ''should'' (based on my experience) be within quotations (such as, "Kara, you're just crazy."). But, when dealing with episode references in parentheses, our convention is to place the punctuation after the episode reference, outside of the quotes. (Tyrol says "Put the gun down" ([[Fragged]]).) This convention, I think, is fine. However, in sentences without episode references, the punctuation should be inside. I'll need to check our policies, where, if we don't make up our own policy, we tend to stick with Wikipedia policy. Another administrator may also have an opinion to this. So that others can chime in, we should move this discussion to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions]].--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

This is, I think, probably because we're on the internet. Apparently, I think according to the hacker slang dictionary which I don't have time to find a link to, it is very, very common amongst prolific internet users to use the British style, not because we're all Anglophiles, but because we tend to have a large cross section with the computer science community. Basically, if the period is not part of the quote, you don't put it so that the reader can tell ''exactly'' what goes in the quotes. Especially in help menus for *NIX systems, that use it so that you know the command is "hup" or whatever, rather than "hup." which would be wrong if "hup" were the actual command. Anyway... I like this system. The end. --[[User:Day|Day]] 10:27, 5 February 2006 (EST) (Post Script: Let's allow a few days for discussion. Maybe move this to S&C? ''I HATE EDIT CONFLICTS'')

== After Questions...now Analysis? ==

We seem to have agreed new standards for the Question's section. However, the Analysis section of a lot of pages is similarly riddled with discussion and dispute. Should this also be reigned in?

: Yes. Now... How, Exactly? --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:53, 17 March 2006 (CST)
:: At the risk of making it sound simpler than it is, we apply much the same standard. We go through Analysis sections and see where discussions can be boiled back down into concise points or where follow-on comments can simply be eliminated. Just as we've refocused "Questions" on "Questions the Episode Asks and Does Not Answer", we refocus "Analysis" on actually analysing the episode as a story rather than on nitpicking technobabble or speculating on unanswered questions :-)
::I'm also starting to think that it may behoove us to simple create a separate "Speculations" section if we feel like we don't want to completely eliminate speculation from the site. I'm not sold on it, tho'. Just pondering.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:25, 17 March 2006 (CST)

::: I think we should shoot speculation as often as we find it, except where it is clearly marked. And I don't think we should let it become rampant. We moved all the Cylon Agent speculation stuff off of each character's page and onto a speculation page, for instance. I don't want to get into encouraging speculation on every single episode page. I like the Purge and Clense idea posed above by someone who didn't sign their post. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:29, 18 March 2006 (CST)

:::: The unsigned post was me, and the lack of signature an oversight. Sorry :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:36, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Although I agree that Question sections need '''extensive concision''' as we saw on LDYB II, one of the strengths of BattlestarWiki is that we have Questions and ''probable answers based on evidence''; if we remove ''all'' answers as was done on the recent revision to LDYB II, we remove one of the ''greatest'' features of ''BattlestarWiki''. I feel that answers to questions should be kept shorter than 2 lines, but so long as they stay on one line, and we don't run into a debate back and forth of like 5 things, we should keep them. And if there is a debate it goes to Analysis. I am adamant about this. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:19, 19 March 2006 (CST)

: If a question has a probable answer based on evidence, then it simply isn't a question any more :-) I'm OK with the idea that we use the Question section to gather answers and possibly gain Analysis points that way, but once we have those answers, the questions should be moved or removed (or, if the answers are purely speculative, the answers purged).

: I also disagree that Analysis should be used for debate. There is no section of the encyclopedic pages that should be used for debate. That's what Talk pages are for. Analysis does not mean, "This is where we nitpick the episode and each others' points to death". It should ultimately read like one person analyzing the episode. Someone suggested it should even be reformatted at some point into a narrative rather than bulleted presentation, and I agree.

: It's not that I don't agree that one of the strengths of this sort of site is bringing fans together to talk out and even occasionally to nitpick. It's just that I think that's what Talk pages are for, not encyclopedic pages. --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:36, 19 March 2006 (CST)

No. The point is that we aren't bringing up "speculation" but that we are pointing out facts, back and forth. For example, "Was Cain lying to Starbuck about wanting to take back the Colonies?" could be followed by "Cain has been seen to be manipulative" followed by "Cain also honestly seems to want to take the fight back to the Cylons", etc. Yes, there are "Questions" and it ''remains'' a questions even if we offer ''insight'' into it. No, we should not move the questions once these points have been raised. Analsis is not officially "debate" but it is what it's name implies; "Analaysis" i.e. counterpoints and so forth, based on Fact; that is, not just listing our opinions, but weighing the facts against each other. Either way, the rules are loose when it comes to Analysis. '''No, it should not be moved into a narrative format; that's more confusing than a point by point bulleted list'''. No, this is not what Talk pages are for. Talk pages are just for discussion about what should go on the front, but let me reiterate; '''Remove this feature of the questions and you would GUT the best feature of BattlestarWiki'''. ------>I want the section on the front of this article of Standards and Questions describing how we handle Questions to be revised.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:21, 19 March 2006 (CST)

: I think, Merv, that you and I have a fundamental disagreement on what the best feature of this Wiki is. And it's odd, because from what I've seen so far, you're actually a provider of what I think the best feature actually is: solid, detailed, well-researched and defensible information about the series, its stories, and its characters. The example you offer is a good one, but the moment good insight is provided for the question like that, I feel it could be moved to Analysis. Or, in this specific example, edited together to remain an unanswered question, but without the sense that people are "discussing" something, which has no place on encyclopedic pages: "On the one hand, Cain can be manipulative. On the other hand, Cain honestly seems to want to take the fight back to the Cylons. So: was Cain lying about wanting to take back the Colonies?" When all is said and done, if the Wiki is dedicated to Neutral Point of View, then encyclopedic pages need not to sound like they're arguing with themselves.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 22:41, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:In case there is any confusion about what I am saying we need it's; "Let's just keep doing what we've BEEN doing, and when a Question section like LDYB II's gets a little messy, ''clean it up as the situation requires''.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:23, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::It seems like these sections (in both Espisode and Character guides) are getting very large and when someone is trying to save even a minor edit we will get an Overflow error. You might have seen it before. http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.#Error_Message It might be better to place both of these sections of new pages. (i.e. LBYB, II, Question/Analysis). --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:16, 20 March 2006 (CST)

Before I resume my attack on the "Questions" section, I would appreciate it if other frequent editors and admins could chime in explicitly on whether we still like the guidelines I posted to the Standards and Conventions page, as discussed on LYOB II's talk page, or whether more people feel Merv is right and we shouldn't be quite so strict as I've proposed (and executed on LYOB I and II)... I would prefer not to take silence for assent only to have a bunch of stuff reverted later because it was widely thought I was too quick with my knife :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:20, 22 March 2006 (CST)

:I guess part of if really depends on if it is just "Questions" or if it is "Unanswered Questions". I don't mind the occassional answer, but it's the ones three deep with conflicting/argumentative answers ([[The Captain's Hand#Questions]]) that bug me. But I guess just shifting them down to analysis doesn't really change anything. I'm torn. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:44, 22 March 2006 (CST)

:I haven't commented much because I agree with practically everything you've said on this subject. It's been bothering me for some time, but I haven't had the energy to tackle the issue. I congratulate you for having the fortitude to take this on — you have my unconditional support on this one. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:40, 22 March 2006 (CST)

== Disambiguation Location ==

We should note that Disambiguation for pages that have more than one meaning should go on the top line of the page, below any "Global" template areas, such as delete, but above such Templates as "Episode Guide", "Character Data", and "Battle Template" area so the text stand out more. Otherwise it is cramped on between the left coloum and the right table and seems like part of the article, rather than Disambiguation data. It should also be tabed once and always italized. '''Comments?''' --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:09, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: Your choice of words seems very presumptious. I would have said something like, "I like the look of one tab and italics" or "The current convention seems to be..." or whatever, rather than being so proscriptive. I agree that we probably need a standard on this. One tab and italics is fine with me. Just noting that your attitude seems very... controntational. Does anyone else think a different formatting is better? --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:37, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::Well, that formatting is what I use and prefer, at any rate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:04, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::The convention I've always used is the same convention at Wikipedia. Tab one and italicize. So say we all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 08:16, 21 March 2006 (CST)

::: Good enough for me. If someone dissents, we can remove it, but for now, I've put this on the S&C page, as I understand it from Shane's post. By your command. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 00:48, 29 March 2006 (CST)

== Cast pages Overview section ==

Most of the cast articles have a section titled "Overview" instead of just using the first paragraph as the overview like normal wiki articles. I want to change them all. Any objections?--[[User:Bp|Bp]] 22:24, 21 March 2006 (CST)
:Plah. I just noticed all the articles are this way, even [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I|episodes]]. Withdrawn. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 00:36, 22 March 2006 (CST)

== Template Font Size and Design ==

I don't like the size of the font in most of the templates. That's my option of course. So I wanted to bring it up. [[Template:Ship_Data|This template of the Ship Data]] is a good example of the size of the text that I think is better than the bold, large text. Also we should always wikicode the templates. I put up a number of examples on how they are created. Also for the top of these type of templates we should maybe have the red bar along. Here is a [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Template:Star_Data&oldid=40890 link] of an old verion and then there the version that is active right now which is [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Template:Star_Data&direction=next&oldid=40890 this]. The Small text keeps everything balanced with the artcile font.

Template that would be effected would be:

*Episode_Data
*Ship_Data
*Star_Data (Being Renamed)
*Character_Data
*Book_Data

Just a thought... :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:24, 22 March 2006 (CST)

==Succession Boxes==
Anything with only one person in a box, like "Laura Roslin" as the ''only'' entry in a succession box for Secretary of Education, is redundant and excessive; it's not necessary, clutters up the page, and it simply makes little sense to do so. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:25, 26 March 2006 (CST)

I mistakenly posted this on the front page first (oops); this is my proposed addition:

"Succession boxes, such as those for holders of a political office or a command position aboard a ship, should not be created unless at least two separate articles can be linked to using such a box". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:32, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:If a goverment is supposed to be able to be listed in any part of someone's bio (i.e. We could do Billy and Toni as People who were aides to President Roslen and then Felix Gata to Giaus Baltar) on '''Succession''' boxes, including Vice-President, or Assitants to the President of the Colonies, or CAG, XO, or CO, or anything that has an order, it should be included. A great example is [[Lee Adama]]'s page, and I didn't even add the other ones; An '''''Admin''''' did. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:31, 26 March 2006 (CST)

::Some of these simply do not make sense, however: why make Gaeta have a box that says "assistant to President Baltar" when he's the ''only one''? The entire concept of adding in extra link boxes is to keep the navigation ''more'' easy to use, but this has been taken to the point that it's just cluttering things up without adding anything truly useful or necessary; I mean the links to Baltar are already in there, or in his character box as a former position. It is impractical and unwieldy. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:35, 26 March 2006 (CST)
:::People love timelines and orders. To get the quick skimmy of things, people look at these. They have been used all over Poiltical pages sorting out who has had what. So maybe we should delete the ones that have just One person attached to it? There is no harm in it being there no more than the "Job" section in the Character template. Guess what? If I were a normal person, I like the boxes, because it answers an interesting question, has there been any secertary's in goverment thus far other than the President's spot. Maybe one of these days we will see a show where there is a meeting with all the members. She even talks about it in Minisersi where she knew all 52 before here. (was it 52? can't remember.) Someone had to be before her and before Adars Administration. My edit was also there and admins been on the site before you came along an removed it. It seemed they had no problem with it being there. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:41, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::Not having it answers the question even quicker. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:32, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::I'm with Merv on this one. Having looked at some code for various templates, I see that there's a trick that can be used for hiding sections that don't actually have any data. That should be used here.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 08:01, 26 March 2006 (CST)
:::::That's is incredibly cool UncleMikey; I didn't know the wikicode could let us do that. Reall cool; I agree with Uncle Mikey's idea. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:44, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::::I'm still not entirely sure how it works. It appears to actually be a CSS trick rather than a true WikiCode trick. Take a look at the CharacterData template, tho', and then experiment with it in a sandbox or on your own userpage (as I did in mine). Leave stuff out of the template-invocation...the line is completely omitted. Very slick.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 19:49, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:''Copied from [[Talk:Laura Roslin]]:''
:I'd say it's okay to have an unfilled succession box where it helps to illustrate the career of a particular character - that is, if they have completed succession boxes, they could also have unfilled ones as appropriate (thus, for example, we can see Baltar's progression from Caprican delegate to VP to President without needing to know who preceded or succeeded him as the Caprican delegate). --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:42, 26 March 2006 (CST)

::But Peter that is redundant with the "roles" section of the template at the top of the article. I think we should not do it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:45, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:: No more redundant than succession boxes for the presidency. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:53, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:::Not so. The succession boxes allow a visitor to see who has been president, or who has been commanding a ship, in succession. This is not always covered in one article about a character-->boxes about what a character has done over time, well that's just in the article itself, and it is in their "role" subheader anyway. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:13, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::So you would say the one Succession box under [[Gauis Baltar]] should not be there? How come you have not deleted that one. You can not be picky. It's either ALL or NONE. You can't just change it because I added it. You been doing it to them all over the place this evening, without consulting anyone before you did it. I like to remind you that this is a community Wiki, and not yours and not mine. But everyone's. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 20:29, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Although I can abide by Gaius Baltar having a succession box without anyone on his left or right, it seems a little ridiculous to add them to all the other delegates who haven't gone on to serve in other capacities. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:07, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::Gaius's has been their longer. I have to look to see when, but my addistoin caught the eye of merv and he edited it right out. As far as the others, if we see another meeting of the 12, and they have changed at least they are there to start off with. The only one I didn't add was the one where no one understands which delgete he belongs to. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:13, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Peter you and I have had our differences before and this I regret; I hope that in the end, they were actually constructive. But what Shane has been doing is in direct violation of Wikiettiquette: "this is a community wiki, and not youra and not mine..."-->"so do exactly what *I* want to do!" is what you are saying? This is irrational; Shane we are DEBATING whether to do this, and you '''went ahead and added more of these things to the Quorum of Twelve Delegates?''' "Why didn't you remove the box from Baltar then, Merv?--->Because after I made the change to Kat as a TEST, I moved the discussion HERE, to Standards and Conventions! I FROZE what I was doing after it was *brought up as an issue*---->You have not listened when cautioned by myself or Peter to pause your editing when it comes into debate; you've gone ahead and edited dozens of pages, and then complained that ''I'' was directly attacking you, simply because I question the veracity of this? And intermixed with this you've been dropping...regretable threats, actual threats onto this wiki, while I try to debate our policy using the civil rules which we have established. Peter, should Shane keep doing this? I will defer to your decisions, as I do not desire a revert war....but there are limited to how far things have gone Peter, you know that. I am going to revert Shane's edits to the Quorum members to bring them back to EXACTLY what they were before this debate began; change them when this debate has finished, accordingly. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:40, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::Better yet, leave that as "Peter, I implore you yourself to make these edits to restore the old versions of these articles to their pre-debate conditions, and freeze them there until it is finished". That would be better than me doing it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:42, 26 March 2006 (CST)
:::Naturally, I will alter the articles to fit the consensus as soon as one emerges, if no one else does. However, I will not protect the pages under these circumstances. This is an issue which can be worked out here in a relatively prompt fashion if we all abandon ad hominem attacks and focus on the merits of one another's positions.
:::Your issues with Shane as a user, while certainly relevant in a broad sense, are not appropriate to discuss here. If you feel the need, you should open an [[BW:RFC|RFC]] detailing your concerns. The community may then decide if they are well-founded and settle on an appropriate remedy if necessary. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:13, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::I bear no grudge against Shane, Peter. My concern is with his actions. Yes, it would be better to handle this in a more prompt fashion which does not require freezing, you are correct. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:26, 26 March 2006 (CST)

===Proposed Compromise===
:''This is my preferred solution; I offer it up for consideration and comment by other concerned users.''
In general, succession boxes should be avoided when neither the predecessor nor the successor to a particular position is known. An exception can be made in the case of a character who already has succession boxes with at least some information, to present a concise depiction of that character's career path.
:''Please comment below.'' --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:21, 26 March 2006 (CST)

::Well, I must say that I really liked mine more; as I already said above, I think the roles box already does that, bio too, etc. etc. etc. I was curious how many would prefer my original proposal instead of this compromise. However, this is not an insane compromise, and I actually think I could live with it. I'm not overly fond of it, but I like it's call for disgression. Okay, Peter, lets just see how many people go one way or the other. This is a pretty good compromise, though. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:29, 26 March 2006 (CST)

::This is fine. I have no problem with it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 11:02, 27 March 2006 (CST)

:: I'd be fine with this. I'd be fine with saying that a box with two "Unknown"s shouldn't be there. Either is fine with me. I am not particularly swayed by the career path reasoning, but can see the thinking. Anyway, this seems alright. And, also, this allows for decisions to be made on a case-by-case basis. For instance, it would be kind of silly to have, a ton of (effectively) empty succession boxs on someone's page simply because they had one filled box. I can't think of an example, but imagine someone who had held several jobs that no one else had held before or since (to our knowledge) and then was ''Galactica's'' CAG. No reason to have all ''billion'' boxes, but it might be useful to have one or two if they were somehow more important roles. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 00:59, 29 March 2006 (CST)

== Regarding excerpts from larger articles in other pages ==

As [[Number Six#Gina]] or [[History of the Twelve Colonies#Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]? --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 14:02, 17 April 2006 (CDT)
:These are overview pages, with a specific event having it's own page (Fall) and as for Gina, it was decided that copies that gain distinct personalities and become distinct characters get their own character page, so the Gina material got put in a separate article, but a brief description and link was left behind. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:07, 17 April 2006 (CDT)
::Yes I understand that, but the links are given differently in these two places. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 14:18, 17 April 2006 (CDT)
:::For clarity. One if for an event, one for characters. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:40, 17 April 2006 (CDT)
:::I prefer the formatting on History of the Twelve Colonies, which I borrowed from Wikipedia. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:21, 17 April 2006 (CDT)
::::I rather obviously agree, but I could see a reasonable person differing; I do think we should have a policy, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 21:59, 17 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::I still think so. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:22, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

== Regarding succession box formats ==
{{start box}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown)''|title=Executive Officer of the [[Mercury class battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''|after=''(unknown; eventually [[Lee Adama]])}}
{{end box}}
looks ugly; specifically, "(unknown; eventually [[Lee Adama]])"
It's also inconsistent with
{{start box}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown, eventually [[Jack Fisk]])''|title=Executive Officer of the [[Mercury class battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''|after=''(unknown, eventually [[Anastasia Dualla]])}}
{{end box}}
from [[Lee Adama]] and the versions of [[Peter Dash]] both before and after I changed it. I'd prefer "Unknown, eventually Foo" , "Unknown" , and "No one" all without parentheses. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:22, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

:For me, the italics serve the highlight the paucity of information, although I guess I'm not married to them. I don't think "unknown" should ever be capitalized, though, as it isn't a proper noun. Where would "No one" be applicable? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:28, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
::I was applying initial capitalization based on its application to captions, section titles, and the like. [[Peter Dash]] is an example for "No one" , although I can live with "None" ...to the point that I have no preference between them. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:15, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::I think "none" sounds better personally. I have no further objection if you want to restyle the rest of these. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:18, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

== Archives Pages ==

Well.. There are two ways I think this could be handled.
#Arcives namespace (subpages needed incase their becomes two or more pages)
#Current way for this page

Personally, I would like the namespace "Archives" so it could be searched independlty away from the talk pages. The listing of the archives though, should be done like this page. Relevent topic only should be archived.

Thoughts? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:12, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

:No new namespaces, please. I prefer the oldid link method for user talk pages, and archive subpages off of the "Battlestar Wiki talk" namespace for project pages. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:52, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

:Having more boxes to check when running a search for some discussion would be bad. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 22:21, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

== Battlestar Wiki should be... ==

...always in ''italics''. If it happens to become bold, that is fine, but always ''italiced''. Any comments --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:32, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

:That strikes me as annoying, not particularly useful, and exceedingly hard to impose on the vast number of existing instances. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 22:23, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

:: Concur. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 11:55, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

== Outline rules ==

I've mentioned this before [[#Cast pages Overview section|on this page]], but it's getting really annoying now. It seems so stupid to have an "Overview" section and force the TOC above it in every article. The first paragraph should be the overview or introduction section. It doesn't need a header. For example: In [[Greek mythology]], the "Introduction" Section should just be the first paragraph. And look at [[Dean Stockwell]], Someone has added an "Overview" section and the used _ _TOC_ _ to force the wiki to behave badly. That article should not even have a TOC! Another example: [[Donner]], should not have an "Overview" header, but at least they didn't add a TOC. This is most obvious in episode articles like [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]. The "Overview" section should just be the first paragraph. Is this a policy? I can't seem to find it anywhere. Can someone explain why we ignore standard wiki format, standard outline rules, and common sense?

If this is talked about somewhere else, please point me there.

--[[User:Bp|Bp]] 10:55, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

: No, it is not a policy. Merely a style choice that was never really hammered down. Now, with articles like [[Donner]], I don't see the point of a header (which I removed). Now, on the other hand... in regards to the episode articles... the primary format was taken from [http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/lurker.html The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5], which [http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/022.html includes the overview header]. So that's where ''that'' came from. And it makes sense there, in my view. By the way, and I don't mean to sound sarcastic, but what is "standard Wiki format"? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:11, 5 May 2006 (CDT)
::Standard wiki style is the style that MediaWiki was designed to use. It isn't a coincidence that the TOC is added after the first paragraph by default. The overview should be an immediately available brief summary or introduction in a standard place in every article: the very first line. It is more efficient for quick browseing because it doesn't require any extra clicking or scrolling, and it makes more sense. The Dean Stockwell article is a perfect example of ''breaking'' the design by forcing the TOC to the top. What also makes it standard is it's use on Wikipedia. Not trying to be a jerk, --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 12:24, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

:: Good point. :-) What has everyone else to say about it? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:59, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

:::I agree with Bp. It's a pity we haven't been more zealous about this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:57, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

:::I agree: headers have been somewhat zealous. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:20, 5 May 2006 (CDT)
::::I'm not sure that word means what you think it means. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:06, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

::::Let me s'plain. My father was killed by a six-fingered man...---[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 17:08, 5 May 2006 (CDT)
::It's been about a week now and it doesn't look like there is any objection, so what is the next step? Can I just start changing them? --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 18:55, 11 May 2006 (CDT)

== "Battle" Pages Format and Guideline Proposal ==

Per the [[Fall of New Caprica]] talk, the "Battle" pages do require standardization, so I propose the following qualifiers for the future.

"Guidelines for creating a "Battle" page:

* Any major military confrontation in an episode should have a Battle page.
* Battle pages are generally ''military conflict summaries'', NOT episode summaries. Use the episode articles to summarize events and conversations not related to the Battle page's focus. Likewise, avoid the use of quotes unless it has critical importance to the page. Use narrative format as a general rule.
* The content of the article should only include battle summaries, tactics, ship movements, major decisions of key political or military characters related to the welfare of the ships, their crew or the colonists.
* Battle pages are appropriate for troop-level fighting (such as the [[Battle of Kobol]]), but focus must be kept on the relevant events and less on the general mood and actions of all characters.
* Battle pages should not include real-world Earth discussions, comparisons or contrasts. If a particular tactic or technology is used that has an Earth equivalent that deserves clarification, place that information in a relevant existing or new article and add the link to the Battle page as appropriate.
* A Battle page works best with direct military conflict (whether or not fire is exchanged between combatants), but can be adjusted for certain political events that have a serious military consequence with direct conflict potential. While the "Fall of New Caprica" event is not a battle, the change of power is in effect a "win/lose" consequence that could have grave tactical ramifications.
* Each Battle page uses a summary template. If you have difficulty in defining the content of the summary template, then it is likely that the content is inappropriate for a Battle page, and should be entered in another article.

Battlestar Wiki's "Battle" articles are based on a similar design used on Wikipedia. Two useful examples to aid contributors include Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:World War II|World War II]] article and the [[Battle of the Resurrection Ship]] article."

Comments on this? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:58, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

:I originally wrote a rather long treatise on how to handle Battle pages, towards the [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions#Battle pages|top of our discussion]] here at #11. Anyone might want to read that for my previous expounding on the subject. Anyway, my guideline for what to include was based on Wikipedia, but once again I find myself looking at Memory Alpha for their articles on the Battle of Wolf 359 or Battle of Cardassia, etc.

:Here is where I must disagree: battle pages should only be made for when shots are actually exchanged. I didn't think "Galactica Vs. Pegasus" should be an article, though it got voted in it was with much contention, and sort of shows the "borderline" of the most extreme case which might be in here. But "Fall of New Caprica" should be deleted or heavily altered. It wasn't a battle at all. I like SteelViper's thoughts on the subject, that "Fall of Saigon" is an "even" in wikipedia but not a battle, so we should remove battle template boxes and such from it at the very ''least''. Still, a lot of work needs to be done on these and I'll find time in the next few days.

:Nextly, --->It looks really awkward to put the entire battle article in the present tense/active voice, and we should not do that. Look at how Memory Alpha or Wikipedia writes battle pages. It sounds very awkward, and unlike a character bio or episode guide, a battle is one finite event and really should not use this. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:22, 10 May 2006 (CDT)
:: I totally agree with Spencerian. One point, though that I want to comment on, anytime an Episode shows miltary personal consipring and uses force against any target (weather that would be Galacicia v. Peaguas). That's about it. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 20:57, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

:::Would you want to include the Galactica's boarding of Colonial One or the GIdeon then? I think that's a little excessive (although I agree with the inclusion of the fall of New Caprica, as I've stated above, and don't think that's seriously up for debate) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:27, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

::::Really excessive, there. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:54, 10 May 2006 (CDT)
::::Even I think that is "excessive". But that is not vs. a miltary target. It is civilian. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:29, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

:::::I think we were confused by your use of the phrase "any target" above. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:02, 11 May 2006 (CDT)

Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II

2006-05-05T23:25:17Z

Bp: /* Analysis */

{{Episode Data|
Image = [[Image:Baltarlaydownburdensii.jpg|300px]]
| Title= Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II
| Series= [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|The Re-imagined Series]]
| Season= [[Season 2 (2005-06)|2]]
| Episode= 20
| Guests= [[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]] [[Michael Trucco]] as [[Samuel Anders]] [[Dean Stockwell]] as [[Cavil|Brother Cavil]]
| Writer=[[Anne Cofell Saunders]] and [[Mark Verheiden]]
| Story=
| Director=[[Michael Rymer]]
| Production=
| Rating=1.9
| US Airdate= March 10, 2006
| UK Airdate=
| DVD=
| Population= 49,550
| Prev= [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]
| Next= [[Occupation]]
}}

== Overview ==

:''Everything turns on its head as the survivors vote for a new president -- and vote for their fate.''

== Summary ==

===On Caprica===

*[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]], the marines, and the [[resistance (movement)|resistance]] continue to take fire from Cylon centurions and artillery. They make their way up a hill, and hold their position.
*The Cylons hold fire, and Sharon remarks that the Cylons will attempt to capture them with non-lethal weapons, such as gas.
*Eighteen hours later, they emerge to find that the Cylons have disappeared. [[Cavil]] -- who suddenly appears behind them -- announces that the Cylons have left the Twelve Colonies and that humanity was spared.

===In the Fleet===

*[[Cally]] is cleared back to work by [[Cottle|Dr. Cottle]], despite having her jaw wired shut. [[Tyrol|Chief Tyrol]] visits her, apologizing for the attack. Cally forgives him, saying that she's always cared for him.

*[[Gaius Baltar|Dr. Baltar]] continues to gain in the polls. On ''[[Colonial One]]'', [[Tory_Foster|Tory]] mentions there's always a victory plan. [[Laura Roslin|Roslin]] later calls a private meeting with Dr. Baltar, asking to deliver a joint statement of [[Wikipedia:Table (verb)|tabling]] the issue of colonization until after the election, which Baltar rejects.

*[[Laura Roslin|Roslin]], fearing that she has indeed lost the presidential race, confronts [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] on whether he was with Six on Caprica before the Cylon attack. Baltar avoids answering the question & states that he may have saved her life, but he will not save her political life.

*[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] returns to ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'', with the resistance fighters, much to the delight of Admiral Adama. She mentions the fact that the Cylons have left Caprica, and a man appearing to be Brother Cavil confirms it. He also says he has a message, but is attacked by Chief Tyrol, who declares a "[[Code blue]]," claiming Cavil is a Cylon. Both Cavil and Caprica-Sharon are escorted to the brig under marine guard.

*The other Cavil (from last episode) is also taken to the brig, claiming he's not a Cylon, but changes his tune upon seeing his "brother", as he calls him. Caprica-Cavil then talks about the fact that the “war heroes” (Caprica Six & ''Galactica''-Sharon) have convinced their kind about how the attack of the colonies and the pursuit of the fleet were mistakes. Caprica-Cavil's mission was to relay the message that man and Cylon will go their separate ways. Both Roslin and Admiral Adama are less than trusting regarding the message.

*In the brig, Caprica-Sharon is completely disillusioned and nihilistic, declaring that since her child's death, nothing - not Adama's trust, not even Helo - matters to her. A frustrated Helo insists that he's not giving up on her, but she seems disinclined to listen.

*Starbuck and Anders are getting extremely drunk when Apollo comes in to welcome them back. Starbuck makes a snide remark about Apollo and Dualla and goes back to drunkenly making out with Anders. Apollo, clearly upset with Starbuck, leaves without saying much.

*Election Day has arrived and Baltar has an apparent five thousand-vote lead over Roslin with only a few ships left. On ''Colonial One'', Tory makes a call to ''Galactica'', putting a plan into action.

*Amazingly, Roslin initially appears to have retained the presidency. While most are celebrating, Lt. Gaeta makes a startling discovery regarding the votes, and informs the Admiral that Col. Tigh may be involved in a conspiracy to throw the election.

*Admiral Adama confronts Roslin regarding the conspiracy, saying that Tigh has confessed to rigging the vote. Roslin admits her involvement and Adama is disappointed.

*Baltar is informed of his election as President. Initially he vows to have a full investigation on the vote count, but after Adama suggests that Baltar take his victory and leave matters be, Baltar relents and informs Adama that he can be quite generous in victory. President-elect Baltar then orders a course for “New Caprica”.

*Baltar and Gina finally consummate their relationship after Gina informs Baltar that she would not be part of the colonization.

*[[Gaius Baltar]] is sworn in as the new President of the Twelve Colonies, and orders the immediate colonization of New Caprica.

*''[[Cloud 9]]'' is destroyed by a nuclear blast with Gina on board; in addition to the ''Cloud 9'', at least three other ships are destroyed in the blast. Admiral Adama reports to the president that this may be a Cylon attack, but Baltar ignores him and presses forward with colonization.

===One Year Later===
[[image:burdens2.jpg|Kara and Cottle on New Caprica.|thumb]]
*[[Felix Gaeta|Mr. Gaeta]] is reporting to the President regarding a Union issue aboard Colonial One, now down on the planet. Baltar is upset, saying there have been no Cylon attacks but the people still complain. He has regressed, turning to alcohol, medication, and womanizing.

*Admiral Adama, now sporting a mustache, is walking around the near-empty Galactica, which is quickly falling into disarray. Over half of the crew have moved down onto the planet, and they are running on such a skeleton crew that they barely have enough pilots to fly training missions, much less a good [[Combat Air Patrol]]. Adama has a discussion with Tigh about going down to the planet, which Tigh reluctantly agrees to do.

*[[Samuel Anders|Anders]], now Kara’s husband, has pneumonia. Dr. Cottle is unable to treat Anders because there are no antibiotics available. He can only advise Kara to make sure Anders gets enough rest and with a little luck he "should" pull through.

*Kara runs into the Tighs as [[Tyrol]], now a union boss, is making a speech to begin a strike, with a very pregnant Cally by his side. Saul mentions that ''Pegasus'' keeps the backup medical supplies and that Apollo would spring some for Starbuck. Starbuck disagrees, which prompts Tigh to state that Apollo should be "over that by now".

*Roslin is doing what she does best, teaching the settlement's children, and manages to find enjoyment in her new position. [[Maya]] is with her, as is the now one year old [[Hera]], whom Maya has named "Isis".

*A [[Leoben Conoy]]-model [[Cylon agent]] shows up at Thrace and Anders' tent, where he asks an ailing Anders about where to find Thrace.

*Kara calls Lee aboard ''Pegasus'', requesting the antibiotics. Dualla, now an officer and most likely Lee's XO, notices something on the [[DRADIS]].

*A fleet of [[Cylon]] [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]]s arrives in orbit around New Caprica. The Adamas discuss what to do in response, with Lee initially advocating that the fleet jump away, and Admiral Adama initially resisting the suggestion. However, Lee apparently brings the Admiral around to his way of thinking (or Admiral Adama comes to the conclusion on his own) when [[Helo]] asks if alert fighters should be launched. Admiral Adama keeps the alert fighters in and jumps the fleet ships remaining in orbit around [[New Caprica]] to an unknown location, vowing that he will return.

*Mr. Gaeta informs the President of the Cylon approach. Later, before his assembled staff, copies of Numbers [[Number Five|5]], [[Number Eight|8]], and [[Number Six|6]] approach the President. The Cylons declare that as long as there’s no resistance, no harm will come. President Baltar, after learning that the Cylons discovered New Caprica because of the nuke explosion set off by Gina, declares surrender on behalf of the colonists. As Cylon armies occupy the planet, Kara vows to resist.

== Questions ==

*Who is Baltar's vice president?

*Is Gaeta Baltar's assistant or his vice President?

*What happened to Zarek?

{{spoiltext|According to RDM's blog, Tom Zarek was initially the Vice President but he had a falling out with Baltar over the regime.}}

*Has Gaeta's view of Baltar changed since Baltar's ascension to the presidency? If so, is Gaeta planning to do anything about it?

*What "number" is Cavil?

*Was Roslin's threat to put the two Cavils into space actually carried out?
{{spoiltext|A copy of Cavil appears in a detention center on New Caprica during the Cylon Occupation. Whether this is one of the two Cavils seen in this episode is not yet clear.}}

*Where did the defense fleet jump to?

*Where is Caprica-Sharon?

*Why is Leoben looking for Starbuck, specifically?
{{spoiltext|According to some Q&A that RDM gave at a recent convention to people from the website 'The Pegasus Galaxy', Starbuck's missing ovary has been "under Leoben's pillow". Could the Cylons have made a hybrid child from her eggs and Leoben's sperm?
Also, there is the possibility that this particular Conoy is the ressurection of the model that Thrace tortured in [[Flesh and Bone]], and he is seeking payback.}}

*Why has the population (until Tyrol's recent union speech) accepted Baltar's imperious rule? People were hardly so passive under Roslin. Indeed, Adama executed a military coup over a rather less important issue than giving a nuclear weapon to a Cylon agent.

*What were the workers being asked to do which was so "odious", "so sick[ening] at heart" that Tyrol was willing to call a general strike, and so important to Baltar that he was willing to use illegal imprisonment to break it?

*Are the Six and Eight that Baltar surrendered to [[Caprica-Six]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|''Galactica''-Sharon]]? (see [[#Analysis:Analysis]])

*Where did the Cylon fleets go, after they left the Twelve Colonies? Cavil was deliberately vague when asked if they simply returned to the [[Cylon homeworld]].

*Why didn't the nuclear device trigger the radiological alarms on either Battlestar?

*How many people died in the ''Cloud 9'' explosion? (see [[#Analysis|Analysis]])

*Were the Quorum of Twelve killed on the ''Cloud 9''?

*Was anyone from [[Demand Peace]] killed on ''Cloud 9''?

*Were [[Shevon]] and [[Paya]] killed on ''Cloud 9''?

*When Gina-Six was instantly vaporized due to being only two feet from a nuclear detonation, did she still transmit her consciousness? Was she even capable of transmitting considering that any internal hardware responsible for this task would have been instantly destroyed? (see [[#Analysis|Analysis]])

*Given Roslin's memories of Baltar with Six, why didn't Admiral Adama suspect Baltar of handing over the nuke to the cylons? If he did suspect him, why not act on it? (see [[#Analysis|Analysis]])

*Did Baltar's internal Six disappear at any point during the New Caprica year? If so, when and why? If so, did the events of her disappearance contribute to Baltar's regression?

*Why was it so easy for Adama to hide the collusion of the rigged election from the press, and why were there no consequences?

*If the Cylons really left the Twelve Colonies, leaving behind a nuked-out wasteland, what happened to all of the human captives in the [[Farms]]?

*Why have the Cylons returned after suggesting that they were willing to go their "separate ways"?

*Did the Cavils lie about the pursuit of humanity being a mistake? Or were they telling the truth?

*Will the Cylons resume their pursuit of the Fleet?

*How many people are left in the Fleet? (see [[#Analysis|Analysis]])

*Have the remaining ships in the defense fleet been armed during the past year?

*Will the Adamas resort to Cain's tactic of conscripting civilians to fill the gaps?

*What happened between Apollo and Starbuck? (see [[#Analysis|Analysis]])

*What led to Starbuck's reconciliation with Col. Tigh? The two had been in conflict since the [[Miniseries]], what led them to bury the hatchet and become the close friends they now appear to be?

*Has it become public knowledge that Baltar killed [[Crashdown]] on [[Kobol]]? Now that Chief and Cally are Baltar's open adversaries they could attempt to use this information against him.

*When Adama informs Baltar that the nuke used to blow up [[Cloud Nine]] was probably stolen form Gaius' lab, why is he not suspicious about the fact that Baltar never reported that it was missing? Had it really been stolen from his lab, he would surely notice.
**One could argue that a man doesn't have much time to spot missing objects when he's running for President.

*Are the Cylons that appear at the end representative of the whole Cylon race, or are they a faction that broke off after the two "Cylon Hereos" began to speak out against the war on the humans?

*If it is true that the Cylons now believe the attack on humanity was a mistake, is the occupation on New Caprica viewed by the Cylons as an act of mercy and kindness vs. oppression from the human perspective? (see [[#Analysis|Analysis]])

*Could it be the intent of the Cylons to actually help the colonization of New Caprica, helping with the construction of infrastructure, new homes, etc, in order to make up for the holocaust? (see [[#Analysis|Analysis]])
**If the Cylons intend to help, that would be consistent with Cavil's comment that the Cylon path to enlightenment is to be "the best machines the universe has ever seen". The purpose of a machine is arguably to assist human beings. On the other hand, the Cylons, if they are here to help, are presumably intending to do so in a highly authoritarian fashion.
***Could the Cylons be wanting to maintain control over the colonials so that in some future the colonials would not be able to return and exact revenge on the Cylons?
**Could the Cylons be fortifying New Caprica to protect the humans from hostile Cylons? There should still be some, that Number Three in Downloaded was pretty fanatical, and if the political winds have changed as they so often do...
***Could there be a Cylon civil war going on?
****Could the occupation of New Caprica be a compromise between pro-human and anti-human factions, with war breaking out between them after it fails?

== Analysis ==
*According to Ron Moore's podcast, the events of "One Year Later" are real and were meant to solidify to the audience that the show is taking a path that cannot be reversed. In order to make the colonization of New Caprica real, Moore felt that the show would need to jump ahead in a span of year to show that indeed Baltar has followed through with his political promise.

*The events of the Cylon invasion of New Caprica parallel the Nazi invasion of France, with the fleet's escape a parallel to the Allied evacuation of Dunkirk and Baltar's surrender a parallel to Petain's surrender. If the parallel continues, Baltar will establish a puppet regime under Cylon rule akin to Vichy France while Colonials still loyal to humanity will establish a resistance movement. Ron Moore has actually said in the podcast for this episode that it is inspired by Vichy France.

*Baltar's arrogance seems to have led to corrupt rule during his year on New Caprica; he replaces Roslin's modest desk with a more elaborate one, replaces the population count whiteboard with a portrait of himself, and keeps a harem aboard the landed Colonial One.

*After a whole year, everyone is still living in tents. There is a vital shortage of medicine, the military is of no use, and labor conditions are apparently intolerable. Baltar's administration is apparently as incompetent as Roslin feared.
**It is not clear whether these conditions are the result of admimistrative incompetence or the inherent difficulties of colonizing a marginally habitable planet.
***Of course, it was Baltar's idea to settle on a marginally habitable planet in the first place.

*It's ironic that the obligations of duty keep Lee Adama aboard Pegasus while everyone else goes planetside—he is a reserve officer, and promised to build his pilots a bar as soon as they found a habitable planet.
**Who says he didn't build a bar for them? However, despite building a bar, he would still command the Pegasus.

*Ron Moore has once again decided to play with viewer's expectations; in the podcast for "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]" Moore commented on how everyone assumed that ''Pegasus'' would be destroyed by the end of the episode, and thus he thought it would be a good twist to keep ''Pegasus'' alive as another ship in the Fleet. Here, many viewers assumed that the nuke that Baltar gave to Gina in "[[Epiphanies]]" would be used to destroy ''Pegasus'' this time, but it wasn't.

*29 people died between this episode and the preceding one? One or two Raptors were lost, and some Marines died on Caprica, but that doesn't seem high enough.
**Is it possible they took out all of the people who left in the raptors because they were not apart of the fleet at the end of the previous episode?
***They didn't remove Starbuck from the count during her time on Caprica at the beginning of Season 2. When she and Helo returned to the fleet in "[[Home, Part I]]", the count only rose by one.
**Maybe more people died during the attack on Caprica than was shown.
***Yet another possibility is the inclusion of the Caprica survivors in the count to offset many of the losses that had incurred in the rescue mission.
***Although they didn't actually talk about the losses, there was a shot of a wounded person being taken away on a stretcher after the Raptors returned from the [[Caprica]] [[SAR]] mission.
***There may have been a series of election-related riots or murders.

*The year gap for the Cylons to find the fleet at first seems odd. However, it was stated in the previous episode that the interference from the gas cloud surrounding it would hide the planet fairly well. The Cylons were slightly over a light year away, according to the Number Five. Searching something as large as the gas cloud likely is for a planet or fleet is, given the sensor range limitations, quite impressive to accomplish in months, even with general directional information from a light-year out. In addition, the radiation from the nuclear explosion aboard the ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' would, of course, only be traveling at the speed of light. Even a less catastrophic attempt to communicate the Colonial's new location would be limited to the speed of light. Of course, once the location was pinpointed, an FTL jump by the Cylons to pounce would be instantaneous.
**Even though the Cylons were able to find New Caprica from the detected nuclear blast that occurred a year prior, the initial detection would have only pointed them in the right general direction. The planet would have moved from the location the inital blast occurred as it orbits around its sun. So the Cylons would only have been able to pinpoint the planet's last location a year prior. They could have used astronomical surveying to detect the planet or send their fleets to other positions using FTL ahead of the blast radiation to triangulate the nuclear blast. Then send recon elements to scout for the planet, which could have been the initial blips picked up by DRADIS by Lt. Dualla of recon Raiders. As soon as the planet was found the main Cylon Fleet would jump in from their staging areas.
***It is also clear that Gina truly did die in the nuclear explosion on Cloud 9 as she would have been able to inform the Cylons of the whereabouts of the Fleet. This indicates that no new Resurrection Ship had been constructed and that Gina's suicidal thoughts finally prevailed. This may explain why she was willing to consummate her relationship with Baltar as it would be the last time she could be with him.
****No, if the transmission of her consciousness is also bound by the speed of light, then he signal would radiate at the same speed as the radiation from the explosion. So they could have captured the signal the same time they found the radiation. They had a year to build or deploy a new resurrection ship. So the [[#questions|above question]] of whether she was able to transmit when the hardware responsible for this was destroyed is still valid.

*The population of New Caprica City is given as 39,192. There were just under 50,000 people in the Fleet before establishing the settlement, so that gives a figure of roughly 10,000 missing. It is uncertain how many were killed in the destruction of ''Cloud 9'' and surrounding Fleet ships but this loss along with any births and deaths that have taken place during the year since the election, leaves very few military personnel in the Orbital Defense. This almost certainly means that both ''Galactica'' and ''Pegasus'' will be extremely short on crew, as many military personnel will have been left on the planet. There was clearly no time to retrieve even selected members of the crews before the Fleet jumped.
**The figure is not 10,000 missing — it is 10,000 not part of New Caprica City's population. The figure of 10,000 is spread amongst those remaining up in orbit with the fleet's remaining ships, out in independent, peripheral, or small settlements not part of New Caprica City proper, and casaulties.
**Watching the Fleet jump in slow-motion, you can count approximately 19 ships, which also gives a rough impression of the reduced size of the fleet. Other ships, including Colonial One and some Raptors, are landed on New Caprica and have presumably fallen into the hands of the Cylons.
**It is not explicitly said that all members of the New Caprica colony reside in New Caprica City. There may be outlying settlements, though none are named. One reason for this would simply be as a safeguard to keep a single nuclear strike from wiping out all of the fleet survivors.
***This would demonstrate prudence uncharacteristic of Baltar.

**Any "industrial" vessels — such as the mining ships, tanker ships, repair ships, agro-world ship — would have landed on the planet and been debarked, dismantled, or converted to form the foundation for industrial / production efforts. Some of the vessels in the fleet that left Ragnar Anchorage weren't designed for prolonged interstellar journeys, and were basically running on a hope and a prayer, and would have been rendered promptly upon finding a more permanent home. The nineteen-or-so ships seen are, more than likely, the last spaceworthy vessels in the fleet that are not needed planetside.
***After a year, people are still living in tents and using landed ships as buildings, so it doesn't look like much has been dismantled or converted into raw production. Other than the miners, who are apparently extremely unhappy at how things have been run, we see little evidence of industry or production over the year.

*Apparently, Kara's comments about Lee and Dualla have taken their toll on their relationship with each other. Whether the comments escalulated is unknown, but, from Dualla's expression of annoyance when she hands the receiver to Lee when Kara calls, it is clear that the three never reconciled with each other.

*The Six and Eight that are part of the Cylon delegation that greets Baltar's cabinet are almost certainly [[Caprica-Six]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|''Galactica''-Sharon]]. This is implied from Six's reaction upon seeing Baltar and her intimation that she knew who Gaius was. The two are also wearing the exact same clothes as in "[[Downloaded]]."

*In the Season 3 trailer that followed the end of the episode, Six narrates, saying that humanity has finally surrendered and the war is over. According to Six, the Cylons can finally fulfill their "''true destiny''" and take care of humanity. They desire to show humanity the "''glory of peace''," mercy; like God, their mercy can only be matched by their power and complete control. So apparently, the war heroes have indeed changed the Cylons' prejudices toward humans, but unfortunately this also means that the Cylons believe that the only way to care for humanity is to control it.

**This narrative sounds more like Baltar's internal Six (superior, controlling, zealous) than Caprica-Six (more of a people person).

== Notes ==
* '''According to Ron Moore's podcast, although Scifi Channel was willing to air this episode as a 90-minute special, it had to be heavily edited down for international distribution; outside of the United States, viewers will only see a 1 hour version of the episode, which Moore regards as "almost incomprehensible".''' Many plot threads, such as the entire Cally/Tyrol subplot, were completely removed from the one hour version. This may not be the case in the UK however as Skyone (the channel that broadcasts the show in that country) previously showed the full 90 minute version of Stargate SG1 episode 'Threads' and may well do the same for this episode.

* Ron Moore's podcast for episode 13, [[Epiphanies]], states that the Nuke given to Gina will come back in this episode, to the benefit of the Cylons.

*Admiral Adama watches Pyramid games and is a fan of the Picon Panthers.

*In RDM's podcast for the previous episode, he said that in early drafts of this special 90 minute long episode, the writers actually tried to make it a 2 hour special, but this was soon dropped (these times are including commercials).
*The election board appears to have a definitive list of the names of all of the ships in [[The Fleet (RDM)]]. Not all of them are clearly visible, but this would seem to indicate that the writers do have an actual list that they get new ship names from. Ship names visible on the chart are: Demetrius, Diomedes, Embla Brokk, Enkidu, Epheme, Galactica, Gideon, Gemenon Traveller, Greenleaf, Monarch, Odysseus, Pegasus, Persephone, Prometheus, Swordfish

*The framed photo of President Roslin and [[Billy Keikeya]] was still on her desk during the election.

*When Roslin "won" the rigged election results, Roslin received 24,265 votes, while Baltar recieved 22,266. This means that the elligible voters in the Fleet number 46,531. In the podcast, RDM explains that he quickly came up with these numbers, to try to reflect roughly how many survivors are below the voting age.

*Toward the end of the episode, President Baltar refers to a government body called the "People's Council". This may be the proportionally elected lower house mentioned by RDM in his [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html#a000016 blog post] on January 30, 2005.

*[[Hera]] is seen on New Caprica in the same white cradle that Baltar had a vision of her being in in "[[Scattered]]", etc. According to RDM's podcast it's actually the exact same cradle.

*Tyrol's union speech is an almost word for word quote of Mario Savio's address during the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in 1964. According to Ron Moore and David Eick in the podcast, they even got permission from Savio's widow to use it (even though, due to the way copyright laws work from back then, they could have just used it without permission, they felt they should get it). As a result, it's even listed in the credits: "Mario Savio speech excerpted courtesy of: Lynne Hollander Savio". Actor Aaron Douglas (Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]]) actually studied film of Savio, so all of the hand gestures Tyrol makes when he gives the speech are gestures that Savio actually used.

*Baltar's portrait of himself does not have the 'cut corners' as seen in most (all?) other papers and photos in the show.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==
*''Dr. Cottle decides Cally is ready to return to duty:''
:'''Cottle:''' You're done here. I'm kickin' you out of here and sending you back to work.
:'''Cally:''' (muffled, because her jaw is immobilized) Work??? Like this?
:'''Cottle:''' You gotta love a woman who can complain even with her jaw wired shut.

*"Well, this is an awkward moment…. Yes, he's right, I'm a Cylon. And I have a message. So…take me to your leader."
*:—The Caprica copy of '''Brother Cavil''' on being uncovered as a Cylon

*"Would you mind telling me what's going on? I'm not a frakking Cylon, I'm not…(''sees the other Cavil in the cell'')…oh. Well, okay then."
*:—The Galactica copy of '''Brother Cavil'''

*"Gods help us."
*:-'''Admiral Adama''' over the objection of [[Edward James Olmos]] (podcast)

*''Trying to bring order to a Union meeting:''
:'''Tyrol:''' Everyone, please be quiet. (''crowd ignores him'')
:'''Cally:''' Hey! Shut the frak up! (''crowd quiets down'')

*"We're leaving. But we'll be back."
*:—'''Admiral Adama''' ordering the fleet to evacuate New Caprica

*''On Caprica:''
::'''Anders:''' You got any great ideas in that military brain of yours?
::'''Starbuck:''' Do the same thing we always do; fight 'em 'till we can't.
:''The Cylons occupy New Caprica:''
::'''Tyrol:''' "What do you want to do now, Captain?"
::'''Starbuck:''' "The same thing we always do. Fight them until we can't."

== Official Statements ==

From the official site (http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/):
When Baltar wins the vote, Roslin considers stealing the election because she believes he is a Cylon collaborator.

=== From RDM's blog ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2006/03/#a000409 March 28, 2006]) ===

* '''"The plot twist [of the finale] seems to share allot (sic) in common with the DeSanto Galactica continuation story, where the humans think they are safe from the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] and revolt against the military by deciding to give up on [[Earth]] and to colonize another place called [[New Caprica]]. Were you at least partially inspired by this earlier concept? "'''

: No. I can honestly say that the idea for our finale was entirely home-grown. I had lunch with [[Tom DeSanto]] a few weeks back and we talked about the struggles we both went through trying to get our respective versions of the show off the ground. As he talked about [[Battlestar Galactica (SDS)|his pilot concept]], I shared many of the plot details from our finale and we both remarked on how some notions and ideas are simply either "in the ether" or have a certain inevitability to them. It's reminiscent of the "[[Wikipedia:Babylon 5|Babylon 5]]" vs. "[[Wikipedia:Star Trek:Deep Space 9|[Star Trek]: Deep Space 9]]" questions I used to get. I was there when DS9 was being created and I knew for a fact that neither [[Wikipedia:Michael Piller|Michael Piller]] nor [[Wikipedia:Rick Berman|Rick Berman]] had any knowledge of the B-5 material, but when you're doing a series set on a space station, there were bound to be certain paths that writers found attractive (like having a female second officer, for instance). In terms of ''Galactica'', the idea that the people of the [[The Fleet (RDM)|rag-tag fleet]] might one day come across a planet and decide to settle down permanently, is an idea that would probably occur to anyone approaching the material, and it's really a question of how you execute that idea which is key.

* '''"I understand according to the podcast that you guys were way over budget on ep 2.20, but the [[New Caprica|tent city]] really threw me off. I try not to be one of those fans that nitpicks everything to death, but this bothered me so much that I had to register and post. If they've been on planet for over a year now and they intend to make it their home, why are they still living in tents? If I had my choice between a tent and something more permanent and weatherproof, I'd be moving heaven and earth to construct the latter."'''

: There are some permanent buildings in the settlement, but it seemed plausible that to start an entire city from scratch would be a massive undertaking to say the least. It also seemed that without a strong leader like [[Laura Roslin]] to helm this kind of effort, that the organizational problems would add up and that the project could easily get stalled or delayed. Now, add to that various unknowns like disease and unfamiliar weather patterns as well as the difficulties in exploiting the natural resources in a completely new environment, it didn't seem implausible that there'd still be a lot of people living in tents.

=== Interviews ===

* '''[[Paul Campbell]] discussess his thoughts on the story post-"[[Sacrifice]]":'''

:'''MB/TSFW:''' So what do you think about the story after you left, and the trouble [[Mary McDonnell|Mary]]’s [[Laura Roslin|character]] got herself into? After your [[Tory Foster|replacement]] came in she kind of had a fall there. Do you think that would have happened if you were still there to watch her back?

: '''Paul:''' You know, I don’t know if they could have. [[Billy Keikeya|Billy]] had so much integrity, that under his watch, I don’t think that would have happened. And maybe he would have had to step down, and Mary would have gone about that route with someone else. But I don’t think if he would have been in the picture, that would have gone down. Because that’s some shady crap, and I don’t think it would have cut it. We obviously butted heads on a few things like that in the past. In particular when I ended up leaving her at the ship. As it turned out, I had another pilot to go shoot. As it turned out, it was more my schedule that didn’t work out, but it worked in the writing. But no, I don’t think that would have flown had I been in the picture. So I don’t know what they would have done. I’m sure that was the story line from the begging, but how they would have worked me into it, I don’t really know. [http://mediablvd.com/magazine/index.php?option=com_magazine&func=show_article&id=84]

== Guest Stars ==
*[[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]]
*[[Michael Trucco]] as [[Samuel Anders]]
*[[Dean Stockwell]] as [[Cavil|Brother Cavil]]
*[[Aaron Douglas]] as Chief Petty Officer [[Galen Tyrol]]
*[[Nicki Clyne]] as Specialist [[Cally]]
*[[Kate Vernon]] as [[Ellen Tigh]]
*[[Donnelly Rhodes]] as Dr. [[Cottle]]
*[[Callum Keith Rennie]] as [[Leoben Conoy]]
*[[Matthew Bennett]] as [[Aaron Doral]]
*[[Rekha Sharma]] as [[Tory Foster]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0443286/ David Kaye] as [[James McManus]]
*Alisen Down as Jean Barclay
*Winston Rekert as Priest

{{episode list (RDM season 2)}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: RDM]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Anne Cofell Saunders]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Mark Verheiden]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Rymer]]

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|''This article is a [[Battlestar Wiki:Perfect stub article|stub]]. You can [[Battlestar Wiki:Find or fix a stub|help]] '''Battlestar Wiki''' by [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}|action=edit}} expanding it]''
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Battlestar Wiki talk:Site images

2006-05-05T18:16:25Z

Bp: /* favicon */

==favicon==
I thought this would be a good place to talk about this. I created a favicon for this site using the basic BSG circle logo, but ".ico" is blocked in the image upload. Most wikis will rediredct requests for favicon.ico to Image:Favico.ico, so I dont know why it is blocked here. Anyway, please unblock ".ico" so i can upload it and get rid of this ugly "basic page" icon on my toolbar. Thanks. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 12:01, 5 May 2006 (CDT)
:It wouldnt work even if you did managed ot upload an ico file because images are actually uploaded withing a series of subdirectories. if you want a favicon to work it must be uploaded to the root folder. and that requires admin ftp access --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 12:15, 5 May 2006 (CDT)
::I'm pretty sure the MediaWiki software redirects requests for /favicon.ico to the image source for Image:favicon.ico. So it would work. But, i'll email it anyway. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 12:28, 5 May 2006 (CDT)
:You'll need to send it to me via e-mail, so I could FTP it from there. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 12:22, 5 May 2006 (CDT)
::Alright. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 12:28, 5 May 2006 (CDT)
::That one doesn't resize well to 16x16 so I am sending you a new one with a 16x16 defined. It looked good in details view, but bad in browser. Thanks for the quick work. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 13:16, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

Battlestar Wiki talk:Site images

2006-05-05T17:28:07Z

Bp:

Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions

2006-05-05T17:24:30Z

Bp: /* Outline rules */

Battlestar Wiki talk:Site images

2006-05-05T17:01:53Z

Bp:

Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions

2006-05-05T15:55:02Z

Bp: Outline rules

Because of their length, individual discussions which we believe have reached consensus have been archived.
As further discussions are concluded, please move them to the archive as well, in order to keep this page topical and readable. If the first archive threatens to exceed 32 kilobytes, please create a new one. See [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page]] for details.

'''Previous discussions:'''

*[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01|Archive 1 (September 10th, 2005 to November 31st, 2005)]]:

:[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Verb Tense|Verb Tense]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Ship Naming, Abbrevation and Capitalization Standards|Ship Naming, Abbrevation and Capitalization Standards]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Signing Your Work|Signing Your Work]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Spelling|Spelling]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Single-name Address|Single-name Address]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Episode Links and Formatting|Episode Links and Formatting]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Proposed Guidelines for Dispute Resoluton on Speculative Matters|Proposed Guidelines / Speculative Matters]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Quorum of Twelve|Quorum of Twelve]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive01#Namespaces|Namespaces]]

*[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive02|Archive 2 (December 1st, 2005 to Present)]]:

:[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions/Archive02#Disambiguation|Disambiguation]]


----

== Image Sizes ==

I tend to think that images that are whole-screen captures (and thus letterbox dimensions) should be about 300px wide. This is, however, based entirely on how that looks on my browser window, which is pretty large, but not maximized on a 1280x1026 resolution. So that might look horrid on some other screen. Anyway, with that in mind, I resize all my full-screen captures to be 600px wide since that's a nice two times what I think they should be viewed at. Should I be even thinking this way, or should I just be telling the articles to be thumbs and set my preferences for larger thumbs? In the case of cropped screen-caps, though, I think 300px is too wide, or rather, often too tall. How do others think on this? --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:21, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

:Yes, use your preference settings for this. FWIW, I'm a fan of judicious cropping. It helps make smaller thumbs more legible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:28, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

:: If you're trying to illustrate something specific, sure, cropping is needed in most cases. However, for episode pages and, I think, when trying to show a scene, the whole screen is good for its sense of context. I could be wrong. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:09, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

== Image Credit ==

Okay... Most images are gonna be screen caps we get from the shows. In which case the credit should go directly to the SciFi Channel, SkyOne Network or Universal Studios. The question is, which one? Or should it be all three? Or does Universal own the two channels and so saying "Cedit: SciFi/SkyOne" is enough? Or... What do you guys think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:56, 21 September 2005 (EDT)
: Universal Studios. They own the copyright. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:26, 23 September 2005 (EDT)
:: Following wikipedia's example, we don't need to credit image copyrights in-text, do we? It should be enough to note copyright status on the image's description page. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:27, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

== The Freakin' Quote-o-Matic ==

It's not very -o-Matic, is it? ;o) Anyway, I think we need a standard for how they're formatted. I prefer the following:

:"The line, in normal-weighted text, enclosed in double quotes."

:--''Rank and Name in Italics'' ("Episode Name")

It would also be nice to figure out how to go and look at quotes entered for days other than the current day. What do others think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 19:00, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

::As far as looking at previous quotes, that's a Joe question, though it would be welcome. Joe mentioned that the template info has to be added manually, but a creative wikipedia might work something out from a large database. At first I added at most 2 lines as a quote, but now I stick to one quote. I think the style you noted worked well (it did for my two contributions this week), so let's see if we all say so. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:50, 25 September 2005 (EDT)

::: Well, if you want to keep track of all the quotes, why not just add them to [[:Category:Quotes]]? Theoretically, every quote should then be linked from that category page. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:44, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: However, it's a bit late for quotes already put up, no? --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:49, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: Wait. Is [[Quotes|this page]] automated somehow? If so, then a Quotes category is kind of moot. I remember looking at it a while ago, though, and it having no date information and just a single quote in it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 13:04, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

On second thought, I prefer this:

:"The line, in normal-weighted text, enclosed in double quotes."
:--Rank and Name in Normal (''Episode Name'')

For full exchanges I think something like this would work:

:'''Rank and Name 1:''' Humorous battle banter aimed at Speaker 2.
:'''Rank and Name 2:''' Scathing insult.
:'''Name 1:''' Pithy retort.
:--''Episode Name''

What do you guys think of this? If no one replies in a few days, I'll start soliciting opinions on people's talk pages and via AIM. After a few more days, I'll simply make an executive decision and put this policy up. I think it would be best to link it at the head of the [[Quotes]] page, too. When the time comes. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:05, 28 October 2005 (EDT)

::Day, I've been adapting that format (per your original thoughts) and I find it works well. My only problem is insuring a proper break between the quote(s) and the name and episode for single-quotation blocks. I think this thing has languished long enough to put up a quick vote or 5-day consensus/no-objection period, where we can make this the practice (and retrofit all recorded quotes to match if necessary). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 1 November 2005 (EST)

::: COnsider this that period. Also, do you mean you like the break, but you're concerned about adding it for some reason that I do not understand, or do you mean that your dislike tags? --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:46, 1 November 2005 (EST)

:::: Okay. I'm about to put my above policy up. I think I'll have to play with it for a bit to get the display format the way I want it for ease of copying and for users who know nothing of HTML. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:02, 11 November 2005 (EST)

::::: I would suggest putting this policy (when it is finalized) and a note about not repeating quotes right on the [[Quotes]] page where the "This is a list of quotes..." statement is. [[User:Nwobkwr|Nwobkwr]] 19:59, 17 November 2005 (EST)

I noticed that people have started putting in quotes from the original series. I think this is great but in terms of standardization I would follow the same idea as used on the [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Main_Page Memory Alpha wiki]:
* If it is an original series episode, quote as [[TOS]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
* If it is a 1980 series episode, quote as [[1980]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
* If it is a re-imagined series episode, quote as [[RDM]]: <nowiki>[[episode title]]</nowiki>
[[User:Nwobkwr|Nwobkwr]] 13:46, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:Not a bad idea, Nwobkwr, but it might get cumbersome. Might I suggest we use only the "TOS" flag for TOS and 1980 episodes, and leave the RDM episodes as-is? This gives a slant to the current series, but then, we will have many more quotes from RDM than from the old series since transcripts of the TOS/80 shows are far less available than the current. It also saves on visual complexity. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:30, 30 November 2005 (EST)

::I think we should put the dab in the episode credit, and only when there are episodes in each series with the same title. (basically, "The Hand of God".) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:53, 30 November 2005 (EST)

Another thing to consider. In light of [http://battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=Template:Quote_of_the_Day/09_30&curid=3654&diff=19411&oldid=19408 this] quote, should we allow non-BSG quotes on a longer-than-one-shot basis? I think it would be okay, but others (obviously) don't. I'd like a few more opinions and some actual discussion, rather than just editing. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:00, 13 December 2005 (EST)

== Links ==

So, in my opinion, the first occurance of nearly any proper noun should be a link. Even the thing an article is about. This means that the first occurance of an article's topic will be in bold, which I think is nice. For longer articles, I think linking becomes kind of discretionary. If someone hasn't been mentioned (or linked, maybe) in a while, then they could/should be linked. Also, episode credits at the end of an event description should ''always'' be linked. --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:19, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:Using links-to-self to bold title text is discouraged by the Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Article titles|Manual of Style]]. In general I think we should defer to Wikipedia for guidance except where we feel a justified need to explicitly contradict them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:02, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:: Ah. I think that's probably wise. Should we, then, manually '''bold''' them (or, in the case of ship names, '''''bold-italicize''''' them), or leave it out all together? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:40, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

:::Manually bold. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:41, 2 October 2005 (EDT)

== HTML ==

I, ah, didn't think this was exactly necessary, but, uh... I think, now, it might be. Do we need to make a note about preffering <nowiki>''</nowiki> to ? I see various posts that have several changes, but leave the HTML intact. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:51, 21 October 2005 (EDT)
: Agreed. Wiki sytnax should always supersede HTML sytnax. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:29, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
: Adendum: By the way, I created two templates: {{tl|s}} and {{tl|u}} for <del>striking out</del> and underlining text, respectfully. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:36, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
::HTML isn't exactly tasteful, but isn't it preferable to templates? HTML and wikisyntax both retain their formatting if moved to another wiki, but anything formatted with templates won't. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:17, 22 October 2005 (EDT)
::: Good point, Peter... Maybe "hacking" MediaWiki might be an option, so as to create wikisyntax for underlining? Yes, this would undoubtedly create similar problems, but if a patch was submitted to the MediaWiki developers then they may introduce it (or something like it) into future versions of the software. Just a thought... -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:58, 22 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: What would you have the Wiki Markup be? Underscores and dashes, maybe? Might be dangerous, but perhaps it would require two of each in a row? Or three? I was thinking that _underline_ would render underline and that -strike- would render <s>strike</s>. However, I don't want underscores to mess up URLs or for strike-outs to mess up use of the em-dash, which is often substituted by the double-en dash (--). I'd just as soon use the HTML tags (except that it would get in the way of validating the HTML of the Wiki in XHTML 1.0 Strict, if that's a concern). Maybe we could use !!underline!! and !!!strike!!! or something. Ohoh! What about ``underline`` and ```strike```. Of course... you could go nuts and <nowiki>'''''`````italic bold underline strike`````'''''</nowiki> for '''''<s>italic bold underline strike</s>'''''. Sounds like a fighting more from some anime. Heh. --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:52, 23 October 2005 (EDT)

::::: The biggest one I saw a problem was with the Overview's in each of the episode's. I was seeing all the time. So.. that's my two cents. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 17:59, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== Verb Tense 2 ==

While it may be a "convention" within fiction articles about an episode, the verb tense issue is not using present-tense within an encyclopedia unless something is still ongoing. As I posted in the main page talk page and on a user whom made me aware of the verb tense issue, I posit that this convention be changed for the actual entries for the people, places, things. In other words, in the episode pages, the verb tense would stay as it is, but the verb tense in the individual article entries for say "Gaius Baltar" which would be the encyclopedic entry on him, would follow the norms and conventions used in other encyclopedias. That convention being, again using Gauis Balter's entry, the descriptions of Baltar's background, and events which have already occurred on Caprica, etc. be in the past-tense, whereas referring to him as the Vice-President, and duties onboard Galcatica, etc. would be present-tense since this is the current state within the timeline of the show at present. This would of course be edited as events unfold within the show. If for example he is removed form office as VP, then the verb tense would change for that piece of information as well as adding in how he stopped being VP, etc.

Likewise passages about say the development of the Mark II Viper would be past-tense, while the current disposition and capabilities of the Mark II would be present-tense. Not trying to be overly pedantic, but if we were to use and adopt the convention that this "encyclopedia" were to be discussing things and concepts within BSG as if it "were real" so-to-speak, like say in a present day encyclopedia would describe the development of the F-14 Tomcat in past-tense terms but describe current description of the presently active variants of the F-14 (i.e. the F-14D) and its deployment and present status within the arsenal of the United States Navy, it would be present-tense. Contrast that with descriptions of say, a WWII German Stuka Bomber which would all be past-tense in a current day encyclopedia.

This sort of tense usage within things such as the ''Star Trek'' technical manuals, Omnipedia's etc., which match he tense usage of current "real world" encyclopedias. Again, not trying to be a bull in a china shop as the new guy on the block, but it is rather jarring to read encyclopedic entries which do not follow the verb tense conventions used in "real world" ones. [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 22:54, 1 December 2005 (EST)

:I can see why you feel that way, but past tense sounds horrible in a literary criticism context, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect "star trek encyclopedia"-style articles to be free of critical analysis. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:26, 1 December 2005 (EST)

::I am not suggesting that the past tense be used in the literary criticism and or episode entries or sections, but in the encyclopedia type entries. It isn't just the ''Star Trek'' encyclopedias but encyclopedias et all which use the past tense for historical or background content and present tense about current status content. In other words, in all encyclopedias (and I post those style content sections here) would say:

:::"Bill Clinton was born ''(past tense)'' in Hope Arkansas, and was elected President in 1992 ''(past tense)'' and after leaving office ''(past tense)'' now lives ''(present tense)'' in the State of New York and has ''(present tense)'' offices in New York City."

::If he were to move to Anchorage Alaska to live and had offices in Juno Alaska this would be updated in a real encyclopedia to read:

:::"Bill Clinton was born ''(past tense)'' in Hope Arkansas, and was elected President in 1992 ''(past tense)'' after leaving office he lived ''(past tense)'' in the State of New York and had ''(past tense)'' offices in New York City, on Dec 2nd, he moved ''(past tense)'' to Alaska and now lives ''(present tense)'' in Anchorage and has ''(present tense)'' offices in Juno."

::To use present tense throughout this site, to be honest it reads awkward in many places. Not to mention that it does shatter the kinda cool suspension of disbelief aspect to have an encyclopedia ''Galactica''. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 00:38, 2 December 2005 (EST)

:::The idea of a fictional "encyclopedia Galactica" is patently not this site's goal. We document plenty of in-canon stuff, certainly, but we have a great quantity of content given over to actors, writers, behind-the-scenes material, critical analysis, and three or four different incarnations of the series. I don't have any interest in working toward the false document mystique, personally. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:35, 2 December 2005 (EST)

:::: Well for me personally, that is 9/0ths of the appeal of wanting to work on things at this site. Particularly since BSG in its re-=imagined form is a rich subject to do just that, because of the attention to detail and "realism" as the underlying ethos of the show. Having a robust wiki that reenforces and builds out upon that quality of the show is, to my mind, ideal. Not saying you have to want that to, but it is a real cold shower for me perosnally. Just my 2/100ths of a cubits worth. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::I can appreciate Lestatdelc's arguments on using present-tense, and it took me a bit to digest, but I agree with the standing convention. I've recently discovered the Star Trek Memory Alpha wiki (wow, and to think such a wiki could be done is amazing to me) and reviewed a few pages at random. Many use past tense there, but some, like the page on the excellent episode, [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Enterprise_Incident "The Enterprise Incident"], is successfully written in present-tense. I suspect that Memory Alpha hasn't a verb tense convention there, but note how the active-tense generates a feel of the characters ''doing'' something, rather than being "historical". As Peter explained to me, fictional characters are always in the act of doing something each time you read or watch them--and after a time I realized how correct he was--it keeps the characterization alive to me and to the article. The use of the verb tense also makes it more challenging to write the article as good fiction tends to evolve--in an active voice. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:15, 2 December 2005 (EST)

::::::But we in theory are not advancing the story but discussing what has occurred on the show and describing the details of the universe presented in the show (as well as "about the show(s) themselves). If we take the notion of suspension of disbelief at face value, and imagine the events of BSG not being fiction and documenting the events and details there of, particularly in encyclopedic form we would present events which have occurred as past tense, and present status and ongoing things in present tense. What Peter has said up-thread is that there is no interest in such a thing for him personally (and it would seem that most concur) I would consider it unfortunate as this is a great missed opportunity. I think that such "false document" mystique is actually something that has rather large appeal, witness the massive industry of such things in the ''Star Trek'' fandom, from blueprints, tech manuals, omnipedias, and the entire supplemental industry to the RPG medium. As for other projects about fictional stories and their universes, I would point to things like the [http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp The Encyclopedia of Arda] which is based on the Tolkien universe. I don't wish to be a disrupting presence here, especially being a "nugget" as it were, but I think this is a bad call for a missed opportunity. I can envision a clear convention which would allow for discussing each incarnation of the series and the "about the show" aspect in tandem with the "in universe" repository of content about said universe in the style of such things as the Trek universe things of Omnipedia, Concodrance, Tech Manuls, etc. and the Arda/Tolkien examples. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::: If one cares to review the earlier verb tense discussion, I originally thought past tense was the Way To Go. However, now I stand with the current convention (I think this is also displayed in the past discussion, but I'm too lazy to check). I agree with the present-tense being used to talk about, say, the ''Oddesey'' or ''The Matrix'' or ''Friends'' or whatever, but those aren't, to me, the most compelling points, good as they may be. The compelling point is, once again, that I'm lazy. The amount of man-hours it would take to update the tense in every character bio every week while the show's not on hiatus is, well, a lot. We have a hard enough time with the stuff that's already within scope and I don't see Lest's reasons as nearly as compelling as the three against: Added workload, literary precedent, and more "alive" feel (to borrow Spence's word). And, more specifically, I, too, find the false-documentary idea only "eh" at best. The new series is shot in a way that kind of feels like a documentary, but let's leave that to them and let's us do our own thing. And, in any case, how would one account for multiple series and spoilers in a documentary? Bleh. We might have to start talking in alternate realities or [[railgun|adaptive physics]] if we went down ''that'' road. ;) --[[User:Day|Day]] 05:24, 3 December 2005 (EST)

:::::: Well we would be updating the character entries anyway as new events unfold, and placing those events in past tense as they are entered is no more work than putting them there in present tense. The only distinction would be what is currant and ongoing status. For example "Gaius Baltar is the VP in the government" which stays like that until events change that, which would be editing that entry to add whatever event changed that anyway. In fact having both be present tense would be really awkward from a readers perspective. I would also point out that it is not "false documentary" so much as "false document" i.e. if there were an up-tp-the-minute encyclopedia that covered the vast array of things '''within''' that BSG universe that was "passed through" the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proscenium proscenium] to us here, that is the style of content about the things within the show which I posit, should be presented in the relevant verb-tense. And the "outside the proscenium" content, about the show, the actors, episode summary, analysis, and comparisons between series, etc. would all be in the present tense which, I agree is much more natural and engaging. I don't honestly see it as more work once the bulk of such tense resolution is done to the exiting content where needed, and as I have posited (probably to the point you guys wanna toss me out the nearest door me already, sheepish grin) would hold much more appeal to me and I am sure others of whom it is demonstratively evident there is an audience for, otherwise fandom and official creation of things like blueprints, tech manuals, etc. for other series stuff, which is presented as if they were "genuine documents" from said universe depicts in those various shows, would not be so prevalent. Again, not trying to be cantankerous or difficult. — [[User:Lestatdelc|Lestatdelc]] 20:53, 3 December 2005 (EST)

::::::: I would also really prefer past tense. Like Lestatdelc says, it creates the feel of the article being real. Starwars Wiki always uses past tense, and refers to the articles as being written "in-universe", which to me sums up why past tense is so good. Writing is present tense sounds like someone is writing the events as they watch them on TV, which kind of takes you out of it. Also, I personally find present tense just seems really clumsy. It's like reading a little childs picture book (without so many pictures, and uh, bigger words :) ). Day makes an good point about keeping with the documentary style, and as for alternate series and spoilers, just check how starwars wiki handles non-canon and spoilers. It would be a bit of work to change, but not too much if lots of people work on it. One more point, it might be easier to convince those who are new here to write in past-tense than in present-tense (which seems like an uphill battle). Anyone else agree, or are us pro-past-tense people just in the minority here?--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 22:13, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::As I've stated above, the "in-universe" conceit does not appeal to me at all. Present tense prose is more difficult to write than past tense, but I think the results are crisper and sound more professional. The process forces one to pay closer attention to their writing style.
::::::::As for your comment about convincing "those who are new here to write in past-tense", I find that notion troubling. This matter is such that there can only be one standard. The purpose of the Standards and Conventions process is (naturally) to create and promulgate a consistant style. If you wish to change the policy, discussion here is the place to effect it, not through unilateral action. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:34, 16 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::You've misunderstood me, I was merely suggesting a change - one which I don't expect will happen, and I'm fine with that. My comment was that at the moment people are coming in and writing past-tense, and having to be told to write in present-tense as they have not read these standards. I was saying that one advantage of changing the standard to past-tense would be that they would probably not have to be told. I'm not about to tell people to go against the standard - that we have one standard is more important than what it is anyway.--[[User:Undc23|Undc23]] 00:11, 17 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::::: I also think that present tense sounds more academic. As has been noted before (more than once), this style was initially adopted chiefly because that is the accepted academic style when writing about works of fiction. This is one of the ways in which we attempt to be encyclopedic. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:55, 17 January 2006 (EST)

== Ranks and Locations ==

Okay. So I was playing this [[Quotes:09 29|this quote]] and I ran into an issue. In Civillian Speak, I'd call Apollo "''[[Galactica]]'''s [[CAG]], Captain [[Lee Adama]]", but I have an inkling that in Military Speak he'd be something like "[[CAG]] (''[[Galactica]]''), Cpt. [[Lee Adama]]" or whatever. You'd only use this when needing to differentiate him from, say, the [[CAG]] (''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''), but we might want to. Same goes for [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] and [[Laird]]. Does someone with a better grasp of military (specifically US Naval, if possible) conventions with respect to this have a suggestion on what kind of convention we should adopt? I'd love it if it didn't conflict with the current Quote of the Day episode convention (since ''Pesgasus'' is half of the ships this is likely to apply to), but we can always change the QotD thing, if we have to. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:04, 6 December 2005 (EST)

:I've tended to use the military abbreviation style as the Army used that I learned while a civilian employee.
::ADM, CDR, MAJ, COL, CPT, LT, LTJG, ENS
::CPO, SGT, PVT, SPC
::Deck Hand, Recruits have no specific abbreviation I can find.

:All caps, no spaces or punctuation. There should be plenty of Internet resources for this. And RDM has already noted the format he used, taking it mostly from the Original Series and his military experience. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:15, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:: Enlightening (and I'm just glad someone replied to this at all), but somewhat tangental to my wonderment. I guess it was really about how we're supposed to specify where people are assigned when they have a specific role. In "Pegasus" Tigh and Fisk are both Colonels, but they're ''also'' both XOs, so for would we call one "COL Tigh (XO, ''Galactica'')" and the other "COL Fisk (XO, ''Pegasus'')"? Or what? --[[User:Day|Day]] 15:49, 18 January 2006 (EST)

::: They would be referred to as ''Galactica'' XO and ''Pegasus'' XO repectively. They're referred to by position first, not by name. Unit, Position, rank, name. [[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 16:02, 18 January 2006 (EST)

:::: So, I guess, with relation to the quotes, we don't really need to say where given characters are assigned... I don't know why I'd gotten that need into my head, really. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:59, 18 January 2006 (EST)

== Image Format ==

Mostly, the images I upload have been .jpg files. That's just what I tend to use on the web by default. However, because we scale our images a lot (i.e. all out thumbs), would it be more prudent to use .png formatting which, I hear, scales better? And, if that's so, should we make a note on this page about preferred image formatting (though, as long as it shows up alright, I don't see why we'd discriminate)? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:09, 23 December 2005 (EST)

:Most imprudent. PNG is far less efficient at compressing photographic images than JPEG. All image scaling is handled by the wiki software, and based on the original JPEG, so no significant generational degredation should exist.
:PNG has its own distinct uses, and is much better than JPEG at line art and schematics. I think this is commonly understood by most internet users, and I don't think that we need an explict policy on it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 23 December 2005 (EST)

== Image Control Station ==
I was working on identifying and classifying unused images that have been uploaded, rather than deleting them outright (at Peter Farago's suggestion). While I started this with the intention of it being something I could handle myself, it has been suggested that it might merit a project or sub-project. I wanted to see if there was any consensus for a project that:

"would take over the Images section of Standards and Conventions (since that's not really where that shouold live, ultimately), and it would cross-coordinate with Characters. I'd want to call it something like Aft Image Control or Auxilliary Image Control... Or, failing those series-references, the Ministry of Images ([[Battlestar Wiki talk:Island of Misfit Images#Project?|Day]])."

Potentially I would move [[Battlestar Wiki:Island of Misfit Images|Island of Misfit Images]] to a Project namespace with a more Galactica-themed title, but it would be a subpage/project of the Image Control Station (to avoid slamming bandwidth-challenged folks that might stumble across the Control Station). The actual control station would be more of a place that coordinate all the image related project pages (present and future).

So the main options I'm proposing are, a project page for Images in general with a subproject for misfit images, just a project/subproject for the misfit images (and we'll link to it from somewhere), or just leave it in Steelviper's user space. (Though I'm open to other ideas as well). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:30, 18 January 2006 (EST)

: I'm, perhaps obviously, in favor of an entire images project. It could also consume Requested Images and have a section for images that we have, but might need bigger/less blurry/just better versions. I think, too, it should probably eat the "List of Characters Wanting Pictures" over at Characters, and have a link to it from there, instead. I mean... while we're doing all this, if we do. However, I think another few opinions are needed before diving off and making the page and doing all this moving and cross-linking, etc. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:30, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::I'm in favor of moving Steelviper's Island of Misfit Images to the Battlestar Wiki namespace, under its current title. I'd like requested images to remain a separate page, although they should be cross-linked to each other. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:39, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::: Why's that, Peter? Just for ease of finding for new users or so that all those images aren't on the requested page (we were thinking, or I was, that the Island would be a sub-page of whatever project it became part of) or what? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:05, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::It's no favor to my position that I can't articulate my point well, but I just don't feel that either image requests or image deletions would be a logical subcategory of the other. Better just to have Image Requests refer users to check the Island before making a request, and the Island refer users to Image Requests before deleting an image. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:47, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::: Hrm. I see your point, but I wasn't thinking that one would be, well, inside the other, for lack of a better phrase. I was more thinking of a hierarchy like this:

::::: '''Images Project'''
:::::* Requested Images
:::::** Characters
:::::** Episodes
:::::** Locations
:::::** Equipment
:::::** etc.
:::::* Island of Misfit Images
:::::** As currently organized
:::::* Images needing improvement
:::::** Characters
:::::** Episodes
:::::** etc.
:::::* Images to be deleted

::::: It's not precisely clear there, but they're all on the same level, I'd just put the Misfits on a page of their own to keep load times to a minimum. Maybe that's too ambitious, though? Anyway, now if you disagree, I at least am certain you know precisely what you're disagreeing with. I'm not sure I was entirely clear before. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:10, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::::What goes on the hub then, besides links to the sub-pages? I do agree that an "images needing improvement" category or project would be good for when we ultimately want to upgrade from TV captures to DVD screenshots. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:18, 20 January 2006 (EST)

Any updates on this? So far the only action proposed (by somebody other than the guys trying to sell the "Control Station") is moving the island to the BW namespace. It's been around long enough that I'd be comfortable doing that if there is consensus that it belongs there. People might be more willing to hack and slash on it if it were out of my user area (even though people are already welcome to tear into it). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:46, 27 January 2006 (EST)

:Please, go ahead with this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:48, 27 January 2006 (EST)

== Dates ==

Do we have a convention for dates? I am referring here to ''Earth'' dates; i.e., those pertaining to the production, such as brodcasts and DVD releases. I have seen at least these four: "Jan 20 2006", "January 20 2006", "20 January 2006", and "January 20th, 2006". Which is preferred? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 03:46, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:Note sure. Didn't know if it really mattered. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:02, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:: Personally, I prefer "4 January 2006", but that's me. I think having the whole month out is goo, whichever order we decide on. Normal American convention is "January 4, 2006". So... that's my two cubits. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:13, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::I'm partial to the "4 January 2006" format, myself. M/D/Y is a crime against civilized mathematics. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:19, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::::I agree too. Plus, the M/D/Y format may be more confusing to non-US readers. (For example the UK does D/M/Y)[[User:Joemc72|Joemc72]] 17:26, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::::For what it's worth, as I was going through all the eposide info boxes, I found the majority to be in "January 4 2006" style, so I attempted to unify to that format as I went along. I agree with the mathematical elegance of D/M/Y, however, and I dislike the comma and the ordinal number. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 18:34, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:::::: Yeah. Ordinals suck. I don't care whether we put the date before the month or after, as long as it's clear what each piece of data is. The only argument for using ##/##/#### is to ease the understanding of non-English-speaking people, but--if we want to do that, we need to make translations for the whole Wiki. --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:38, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:::::: Y-M-D, all numeric, is easily the nicest for sorting, so I'd say it's the one with "mathematical elegance" by virtue of its computer science elegance. That said, "10 March 2006" is the nicest for instant reading clarity and agrees with the output of <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. Commas are a waste, and ordinals would be horrific.
:::::: Anyway, someone should actually put up a consensus if this counts as one; I don't mind going through and standardizing them some day relatively soon. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 11:53, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:So, have we decided what date format is to be used? --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 04:58, 17 March 2006 (CST)

== Battle pages ==

I realize that although I created the battle pages, I never clearly set out the format they should take. Basically, they try to imitate real world battle pages at Wikipedia as much as possible. Using this, I created battle boxes for the entire Lord of the Rings battles series, then just re-applied it here. I'm going to be revamping the boxes in the next few days (no info changes, just formatting changes, nudging, etc. little fixes). However, because they should try to follow real world battle, they should try to stick as closely as possible to these. Long story short, there are 3 basic categories that an "engagement" should fall into:

* A) Battle - large scale engagements
* B) Skirmish - small scale, but noteworthy, engagements
* C) On *''rare''* occasion, alternative names can be used. This largely consists of the "[[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]" which was less a battle a more of a slaughter. This was then re-applied to the "Fall of the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards" because it was part of the larger "[[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]". But this was really an exception, for reasons which I think are obvious. I mean, if ever the Galactica crew destroys the entire [[Cylon homeworld]] with a [Wikipedia:Christopher Blair|Temblor Bomb] in season 5 or so, we'd call it the "Fall of the Cylon Homeworld", but otherwise this term is reserved only for engagements resulting in massive damage. Another notable exception is the "[[Great Cylon Turkey Shoot]]"; you see the Battle of the Philippine Sea is so commonly known as the "Great Marianas Turkey Shoot", and RDM said it was directly inspired by this, that I thought it fitting to alter the name to fit that (that, and it took place in an unspecified region of interstellar space, and Basetars don't often have names. I mean, if a Basetar named "''Truth and Reconiciliation''", this battle would be called "Battle of the ''Truth and Reconciliation''" or something. But the engagement in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]" didn't have this. However, "[[Battle of the Resurrection Ship]]" ''did'' have a notable ship with a name in it, so it became "Battle of...etc".

Further ground rules to lay out are what actually deserves an article: officially, "[[Skirmish over the Red Moon]]" is about the smallest engagement we're ever really going to make a page for. Generally, something deserves an article if:

*1) A Colonial ship is destroyed (Vipers, Raptors, etc). They can't easily be replaced, and the loss of even one can be considered a blow. (The upcoming engagements in "[[Scar]]" might be a skirmish instead of a battle, depends how many ships are involved at once).
*2) A massive number of Cylon vessels is destroyed, making the engagement a noteworthy event. For example, the "[[Great Cylon Turkey Shoot]]" resulted in no Colonial losses ''whatsoever'', yet so many Cylons (hundreds of ships) were destroyed that it warrants it's own page.

An example of something that would ''not'' deserve it's own page is like when 2 Raiders were destroyed in "[[Final Cut]]", with no Colonial losses. No personnel or ships were lost, and the losses to the Cylons were insignificant in the extreme (considering that they still have production facilities and the Colonials do not).

As a rule of thumb, any engagement that involves a Battlestar or a Basestar firing it's own guns at the enemy is a "Battle" (Battle of the Coral Sea was a full scale battle, yet no enemy ships directly engaged each other; just fighters). However, if a Battlestar launches Vipers, but doesn't actually get involved in a small scale fight against enemy fightercraft, it's ''probably'' not a battle (case in point, "[[Skirmish over the Red Moon]]".

Nextly, we have the matter of Commanders and Casualties. We don't know who the heck is commanding the Cylon Fleet or if there are "commanders" in the sense we think of aboard the Basestars. Thus they should be left as "unknown" (though if a Basestar is destroyed, you can assume the "commander" died, also if the entire Cylon force is wiped out). Mind you, if we ever see Number Six standing in a Basestar giving orders during a battle, if she actually gives orders she may be listed as a commander. Usually, a Commander is the highest ranking person present; don't bother to list Colonel Tigh if he never actually takes over command from Adama at any point. We should list "Admiral Cain AND Commander Adama" because Adama wasn't really serving "under" her at the time but by joint agreement, etc (complicated).

Casualties are easier now in Season 2; count how many people died in the episode who were *''not''* involved in the battle, then subtract that from next week's survivor count. For example, in "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]" two people died that weren't in the battle: Admiral Cain and an unnamed ''Pegasus'' Marine. Thus, when we see the survivor count in "[[Epiphanies]]", we should subtract 2 from it, and us that as "casualties" (I got the idea from "Battle of Kobol").

"[[Battle of Kobol]]" was on the whole a messy, drawn out affair as I think you will agree. We agreed that there's a cut off point where Centurion actions in "Home, Part I" no longer count as a battle or skirmish because it was so small scale (again, no Vipers were destroyed, etc).

As for "Numbers" we are keeping a running tally of ships, though "Cylon" numbers are a little tricky. I just go with "associated Raiders and Heavy Raiders" when a Basestar is involved, when no numbers are stated on screen.

As for forces, it's "Cylons" not "Cylon Alliance" (from TOS) because we have no idea what the political structure of the Cylons is. For every battle after the massive loss of 118 Battlestars in the Fall of the Twelve Colonies, every other engagement after this is done by "Remnants of the Colonial Fleet".

I hope that sorts out stuff for now. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:01, 20 January 2006 (EST)

: That's ''awesome'', Ricimer. Now, before we put it up on the main S&C page, I think it needs some concising, though it will be key to not let it become less clear. I would suck at that job, so... please someone else volunteer. I'd also like to see the battle box become a template (as mentioned on your talk page), for ease of changing it if we need to and also for ease of CSS-ifying it so that it can change with themes, eventually. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:25, 20 January 2006 (EST)

::As noted on [[Talk:Battle of the Resurrection Ship]], I continue to prefer "Attack on" for situations where the target is named but the battleground is not. As for [[Fall of the Scorpion Fleet Shipyards]], there is no reason why "Battle of" wouldn't encapsulate that idea accurately. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:22, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::Because it's doubtful if shots were even fired by the Colonials at Scorpion; it was a one-sided slaughter, but nonetheless deserved it's own page. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:25, 20 January 2006 (EST)
::::That's a fair point. I continue to believe that "Battle of" is inappropriate when the field of battle has not been specified. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:27, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::::I'm sorry but this is the format that more or less works. "Battle" is a standard name. "Attack" sounds like a Doolittle Raid, as opposed to the MASSIVE engagement we just saw. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:30, 20 January 2006 (EST)
::::::Your ''ex cathedra'' assertions on style are unbecoming. I am interested to hear the opinions of other users, particularly Joe, who named the page in the first place. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:35, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::::::I fail to see what is rude about this: rather than simply editing pages as I saw fit, you ''told'' me to make a full write up of my view on the subject here, and then let consensus agree or disagree: you are chastising me, for doing as you requested? That said, not ''ex cathedrda'', but with ''plenitudo potestatis'' :) --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:54, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::::I went to Wikipedia hoping to find a definitive pattern to follow, but came up empty. [[Wikipedia:Battle#Battle naming|Naming Battles]] Apparently the british had a whole committee for this purpose ("British Battles Nomenclature Committee"). While almost all of the battles listed in Wikipedia follow the "Battle of" convention, they are always followed by a geographic reference (which we're not really going to have in this case). If we're going to name it after the resurrection ship, we might consider the outcome as well. Rather than just calling it the "Attack of", we might consider the fact that the result was its destruction. In Star Fleet Battles there was a scenario called "The Mighty Hood Goes Down" that always stuck in my mind (a Klingon ship attacks a greatly disadvantaged ''Hood'', usually resulting in its destruction). I guess that would be similar to "Fall of the Twelve Colonies." ("Destruction of the Resurrection Ship"?) Although that would certainly spoil the ending if someone hadn't seen the episode. Sorry not to be able to take a decisive stand, but hopefully some more people will weigh in. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:Good info there. Well, If it was them ''surprising the Resurrection Ship alone'', I would go with "Destruction", but instead it was an all-out battle to destroy it, case in point it's the only ever engagement between ''multiple'' Basestars and ''multiple'' Battlestars. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:57, 21 January 2006 (EST)
::That's a good point. With all this focus on the Resurrection ship, I lost sight of the fact that it was essentially a non-combatant. It was the strategic objective, but the actual firepower lay in the basestars and the raiders. I guess naming would have been a lot simpler if they gave us a goofy sector name like the TOS would often do (Hatari sector, etc) to use as a geographic landmark. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::I still think "Attack on the Resurrection Ship" is descriptive, succinct, and has a good ring. The fact that the actual combat didn't involve it is incidental - the Resurrection ship was the primary target, and it certainly ''was'' attacked. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 21 January 2006 (EST)\
:::"Battle of the Resurrection Ship" is just as descriptive and succinct when you think about it, and I personally believe that it has a bad ring. Funny thing was, remember when they were doing that recon mission near a moon? (orange one that they flew by in Res Ship Part I), I had hoped that would provide a location (like the Red Moon with Starbuck, etc) however, the actual battle did not take place near there at all. Of course, what WOULD we have called it? Old ''Red Dwarf'' joke about that. It's a "bluey-green planetoid"...they're ALL bluish-green planetoids! (no names, etc). At any rate, it wasn't just attacking that ship; it was a full scale battle between the Basestars and Battlestars. That said, Galactica vs. Pegasus should be deleted, because I intend on merging any relevant information into a short paragraph for "Battle of the Resurrection Ship"; I'm just busy and can't do a full write-up yet. Monday.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:32, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::::My sentiment is that "Battle of ~" should be used with the location or nucleus of a battle. I agree with previous comments that the Resurrection Ship was effectively a stationary set piece around which the battle was waged. That it was destroyed does not disqualify it from functioning as a virtual location. The time and place of the battle were directly related to the presence of the Res Ship, so I believe it functcions as a location for our purposes. Insofar as that translates to S&C, shall we say "Battle of ~" necessitates a location, but that locations can include noncombatant targets? (Even if they possess mobility.) -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 22:32, 21 January 2006 (EST)
::On the matter of survivors, we absolutely should not assume that every off-screen casualty that happens between episodes in which a battle takes place was caused by said battle, although it certainly provides an upper limit. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:24, 20 January 2006 (EST)
:::Oh, I just meant "follow the pattern we already established with "[[Battle of Kobol]]", that is, say in the casualty box "XX number at most; survivor count decressed by YY, but ZZ number were scene to not die because of the battle" etc. (well, shorter than that). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:28, 20 January 2006 (EST)

== Ages ==

As has come up [[Talk:Saul Tigh#Age|elsewhere]], I'd like to get the age thing going here. I think, by and large, ages should not be included. In the case of Saul Tigh (and any others who meet these criteria after), I think we should include it. Here's my plan: The numbers ''must'' be a link to a note at the bottom citing the source of the information. If that means including a bunch of math at the bottom, so be it. If it gets too big and complex, then we can move it to, say, "Saul Tigh/Age" or whatever. This way, the information is as transparent as we can make it, without muddying up the template with justifications right there. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:29, 20 January 2006 (EST)

:FYI, footnotes do not appear to work inside the character data template. I'm not sure why. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 20 January 2006 (EST)

== Ship gender ==

Which pronouns shall we use for ships? I believe the normal convention is for friendly (for our purposes, colonial) vessels to be referred to as female, and enemy (Cylon) craft as male. IIRC this is consistent with Galactica-Boomer's terminology for the captured raider. (Thus, enemy craft repurposed to the colonials retain their masculine identity.) I would suggest that gender-neutral pronouns for ships should be avoided when possible, if only as a matter of taste. Thoughts? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 18:16, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I believe the current convention is the female for all ships ([[Battlestar_Wiki:Standards_and_Conventions#Ships]]). I've not heard of using male for enemy ships. I do agree that gender neutrality ought to be avoided, if only to make it easier to translate into Spanish (I'm not very familiar with gender neutrality in that language, other than generally defaulting to masculine). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:29, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I've never heard of enemy ships being referred to in the masculine. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:46, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I must have hallucinated it, then. Very well, feminine it is. (Boy do I feel silly for missing the item in Standards and Conventions. I did a search on "gender" but somehow glossed over the big ol' heading.) Thanks for the input. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 19:17, 21 January 2006 (EST)

Perhaps this goes without saying, but I think it makes sense to leave pronouns neutral when referring to ships in a general sense or on a class basis ("If it is armed, the Blackbird likely fires the same ammunition…") and make them feminine when referring to a ship by name (''Laura'' quickly proves her worth…). Kosher? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 19:24, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:Sounds right. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:50, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:Most navies refer to their vessels in the feminine. I do know that the Russian Navy does refer to its vessels in the masculine.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:25, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::Ah! That must be where I got tangled up. I bet I read a cold war spy novel a decade ago and misremembered the convention. Thanks, Ricimer. Now... can anyone confirm that Galactica-Boomer called the captured Raider a he? If so, should all Autonomous Raiders be masculine? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 04:22, 24 January 2006 (EST)

== XHTML Compliance ==

So. We all (should) know that and are ''Bad''. However, it's (apparently) less common knowledge that all is bad as well. For the [http://www.alistapart.com/stories/doctype/ DOCTYPE] of this website, it should be . All tags must be closed in a XHTML 1.0 Transitional Doctype. I've also learned that <s> is ''equally'' bad for XHTML Documents. Apparently, the tag to be using is <del>. Just thought I'd put this up here and see if anyone had any thoughts before moving it to the S&C page. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:08, 23 January 2006 (EST)

:This would be particularly relevant if we were using a strict doctype, which, god-willing, will never happen. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:11, 23 January 2006 (EST)

:: Well, yes, I think it would be a bad idea to expect all Wiki contributers to know how to follow strict and to take the time to do it (we use tables for a lot of our formatting stuff), but While we have the Transitional Doctype, I think we should try to do at least that. --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:33, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::: If bots are enabled, I could get a bot to sit on the server and go through the pages and change tags to XHTML and then also to Wiki code.

== Policy? ==
This is policy right? Because then we can add the <nowiki>{{Policy}}</nowiki> tag on the page. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 18:01, 17 March 2006 (CST)

==Replacement and retirement of the term "Humano-Cylon"==

I propose that we replace the term "[[Humano-Cylon]]" with "[[humanoid Cylon]]". The term didn't really expand much outside of BattlestarWiki; I've heard Humalon, BioCylon, Cylon Agents, etc. and other frequent combinations out there. That's not why I want to change it though. In light of the fact that there will soon be a Human/Cylon Hybrid on the show, and I've put a lot of thought into this over several days, and I can only come to the conclusion that leaving the terms as they are will lead to dreadful confusion unless changed. I mean, they were called "Humano-Cylons", "Humalons" because they're Cylons that are "like" Humans, but now we're going to have a Hybrid that is a genuine cross between the two on a cellular, nay, molecular level. I know it will take a lot of work (I'm willing to do it), but I think we should phase out "Humano-Cylon" because it was never canonical, and will be all too readily confused with the hybrid. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)
:I agree that Humano-Cylon should go. The term initially struck me as clumsy, though I didn't question it because it was so widespread in the Wiki. I wonder if we could get by with plain old "Cylon" when the context is clearly RDM; Centurions, after all, are usually called out as such. Within the world of the show, the usual term seems to be Cylon. I also feel we should avoid adopting other contrived portmanteaux (Humalon et al.) -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 05:21, 24 January 2006 (EST)
::That is a good point, and a surprisingly elegant solution. I approve. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:54, 24 January 2006 (EST)

On top of this, I think it's time that we created a page for the [[Cylon-Human Hybrid]]; info is gathering and Sharon's daughter is going to be a pivotal character eventually (consquently, I've heard that the later episode of Stargate SG-1 season 9 will focus on Vala Mal Doran (Claudia Black) returning with a "miracle pregnancy", unfortunately her daughter turns out to be the physical manifestation of the bad guys, the Ori, and she will be sort of the bad guys "messiah" figure in their 10th season. It makes you think...). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

And while I'm on the subject, I think that she should make separate character pages for Cylon "copies" that develop individual traits over time. For example, we should keep a main "Sharon Valerii" page, with stubs for the main articles for "Galactica-Sharon" and "Pegasus-Sharon". Also, Gina should probably have her own page separate from the main Number Six article, as she's differentiated into a separate character.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 01:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:I also agree we should split the Cylon copies. Perhaps (using your example) the "Sharon Valerii" page might well be nothing more than a disambiguation, and contributers would be encouraged to link directly to "Sharon Valerii (Galactica)" or "Sharon Valerii (Caprica)". Migrating all the links would be a substantial project, but one I feel is worth taking, and sooner the better. As for naming convention - it might not work every time, but perhaps the location where that copy is first introduced? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 05:21, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::This is long, so forgive me, but there are important issues that change our nature that I cannot agree to.

::Let's deal with the terminology change first. I had my qualms about "humano-Cylon" when I first saw it, but it is an efficient term to differentiate these beings from robotic Cylons here, especially given that the show has not really furnished a unique term. "Cylon Agent" is the closest that the show has used, with "human models" and "Cylon humans" after that. ''Battlestar Wiki'' has many articles that use descriptive terms as placeholders in lieu of a canonical name: "[[Presidential security service]]", "[[Identification Tags]]", and "[[Colonial wireless alphabet]]" are other examples. "Cylon agent" can be used as a placeholder redirect if one is tired of typing it, but we need more reason than "we don't like the term" to change "Humano-Cylon" now, as it appears on many, ''many'' articles here. And frankly, it's grown large enough that purging it will be very difficult. Our naming conventions are here for a reason, so making exceptions for the Sharon Valeriis diminishes our effectiveness as an encyclopedia, which MUST NOT be ambiguous, strive to keep to the basic definition and not wallow about in subdefinitions as an unnecessary article into itself--which is what you are proposing. "Humano-Cylon" is ''very'' popular here, and what goes on in the "outside world" doesn't really matter in the context of maintaining this wiki, so long as others can use their own terms and we provide appropriate redirects to our article as appropriate. I understand the spirit of what you're suggesting, but we lack a sufficient "why", in my opinion. Although I see a good reasoning between what are "Cylons" in RDM and what are "robot Cylons" that can withstand further debate, I think we should adjust the wiki as the characters do: when the characters begin to see the Cylons with human traits and not a machine to be shut down, our data here should reflect it. Otherwise, differentiating them to any large degree would be like writing bios on the "Borg" drones from "Star Trek." No point, as they are all generally the same.

::Two: Sharon's baby has '''not been born yet'''. Do ''not'' assume it will come to term. Imagine the holy hell that the Cylons will unleash if they learn that it ''doesn't''. Imagine the political hell in the Fleet if it ''does''. Either way works well for the writers, so we can't make the assumption. Ron Moore has promised some radical changes for the Fleet at the end of this season, and much of this could involve that child to be. Once we know for certain that this hybrid is born and is even given a name, then a page is quite appropriate and necessary. But until then, creating an article for this or any other hybrids or proposed character to-be goes against our sourcing policies (it's speculation until shown in an episode) and is premature (no pun intended).

::Three: To differentiate between the Valerii's and other Cylon agents is asking for trouble at present. They are identical in creation and mission; if they begin to vary on that mission, a subarticle is written. The [[Number Six]] article shows at least three variations and it appears to work well. Now, a number of articles are becoming long, true. But, as a wiki, we haven't created a policy yet as to how to break up or concise such data as it relates to these character bios. We ''have'' worked out a process for the [[Cylons (RDM)]] and [[Twelve Colonies (RDM)]] article series, which could be adopted for the characters with some thought. Changes that are more POV or assumptive like these, and less in form to the wiki's overall format or mission are detrimental, IMO. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:44, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::I don't think the show has yet provided a canonical term to distinguish the "human models" from the more mechanical models. I think "Cylon Agent" would be a good placeholder/redirect, but that's based on the writing on a folder and not consistent adoption within the show. One thing that hasn't been established well (at least in my mind) is WHO the Cylons are. Are the humanoid-cylons the new, REAL cylons (with centurions, raiders, etc. serving their interests)? Or are all models part of a true "Cylon collective" (resistance is futile) where everybody is considered equally "Cylon". If the humano-Cylons prove to be the "real" Cylons, then I would see them taking more of a prominent role at Cylons (RDM). Until then, I think that any term we use is just serving as a placeholder.

:::Even if Sharon's offspring (I'm not sure if baby is the right word) comes to term and is born, I'm not sure that Cylon-human hybrids deserve an article of their own. Peanut butter gets an article, and jelly gets an article. Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches even get an article (being a distinct, important, and common combination of the other two). However, just because somebody once made a peanut butter and tuna sandwich doesn't mean that it necesarily would merit an article. The offspring would DEFINITELY merit its own article, but until proven otherwise would be a unique proof-of-concept. All information about her would represent the totality of what we know about the hybrids, until such time that more hybrids come into being. (That is if she even comes into being. Adama may yet "drown the baby in the pond.") --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::A note on the offspring: perhaps it would be fun to create a short, amusing-but-still-relevant biography page for the fetus ("prebiography"?), noting its (can we say ";;her" because Sharon said so?) unique physiological properties, Baltar and Six's fascination with her, political ramifications of her delivery or lack thereof. A nod, if you will, to the "life begins at conception" faithful. I realize such a page could easily become political, insulting, or trivial, but I think it's worth a shot. Treating the subject like a regular character bio affords plenty of oppurtunity for ironic humor as well, as with the [[Toaster]] article. Yeah? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 14:39, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::::The Cylon-Human Hybrid article cannot be created until after the episode in which it is born. It is BattlestarWiki's firm policy to categorically deny the "life begins at conception" viewpoint and instead support the life at birth viewpoint. An embryo which is little more than a clump of cells, the potential for life, yes, but not life. Regardless, following the tenets [[Naturalistic science fiction]], BSG supports "realistic" ''science'', as opposed to "opinions". Creating the article ''before'' the child is born would undermine ''BattlestarWiki's'' established stance against "life begins at conception", and creating it before the birth would be like holding up a big sign saying "we support Life-At-Conception". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:51, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::::I hope I'm not stepping into a political debate here, because that is not my aim at all. But can you provide support for your claim that BattlestarWiki has a firm policy on this topic? -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 15:00, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::::::''Battlestar Wiki'' has no policy on the matter of the status of a fetus, Ricimer. This is a ''non-sequitur'' that actually worsened your position, not reinforced it. In short: Don't make stuff up. Everyone here can see and (and in most cases, edit) all policies. That said, jumping down to new thread and clarification... --15:37, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::::::::No, no, sorry; I was being really sarcastic. Sorry, I thought everyone could tell. Well, if not, "that life at conception is a policy thing I just wrote was just a sarcastic joke". I appologize for the inconvenience. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:06, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:::As for the Valerii problem... I think that's going to be a tricky issue. "Caprica" Valerii does seem to behave distinctly differently from "Galactica" Valerii, and both of those differently than the other "Caprica"/command Valerii. I'm not sure it has been definitively proven whether they are unique individuals, or whether they are just playing different roles based on what the mission calls for. Personally I like the current grouping by "model", though I might more seriously rethink if their individuality/uniqueness is eventually proven. I think "Downloaded" would be pretty decisive (if it hasn't been canceled as rumored).

:::Feel free to copy my sig to any of these if you need to repond to an individual issue. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:38, 24 January 2006 (EST)

A few points to clarify:

'''One''': I didn't suggest this simply because I "don't like" the term "Humano-Cylon". I was actually okay with the continued use of it, until the Hybrids came along. The ''*ENTIRE*'' reason I have raised this issue of changing the name is officially "'''I think it will get confused with the Cylon-Human Hybrid'''". Just wanted to clarify that.

'''Two''': I did not expect the pages to be changed immediately, and I understand that Caprica-Sharon's daughter hasn't been born yet: The reason I ''put foward'' the issue now, is so that we could have a lenghty amount of time to debate the issue and set up parameters and rules for this change here, in advance, so there will be less confusion later. Never too early to debate. I wanted to get the ball rolling.

'''Three''': Regardling the popularity and practical removal of "Humano-Cylon": How do we know it was ever "very popular"? I only used it because it was the term that this wiki was already using when I got here. Curious, can we have a show of votes here of who actually "likes" the term enough to keep it? (largely irrelevant, sorry, I'm just saying; How can we quantify it as "popular", when in the earliest days ("In the Long-Long Ago"...) BattlestarWiki used that name and redirected all future references to these begins to that page. ''Post hoc, ergo propter hoc''.

What I meant by stating that it's "not used much outsite of BattlestarWiki" is that I mean it isn't based on anything outside of this wiki, ***so we can feel free to change it without being fettered by external constraints. I mean that changing it will not contradict other material out there.

As for "practical removal", recently we gutted this entire wiki updating "Commander Adama" to "William Adama" following his promotion to Admiral. If such as pervasive name as Commander Adama can be replaced and revised, surely there will be not so great difficulty in replacing "Humano-Cylon" with "humanoid Cylon", etc. (That's my personal choice, but any other name that ''doesn't'' sound like "Humalon" or something (the Hybrid confusion, etc) would be okay after a vote).

'''Four''': The separation of Cylon copies with distinct personalities into different character pages. I was willing to ignore this through season 1, but after hearing about "Downloaded" I realized that we'd have ''two'' copies of Sharon, each distinct from both the other standard Sharon-copies AND each other, on the show. And the more I thought about it, the more I think they have finally reached the point where they need to be considered separate major characters with their own pages. ***Again, we can do this after "Downloaded" airs, I just wanted to get discussion started now, so we know what to do ahead of time. Yes, I did PLAY AROUND with creating separate pages for both two days ago (after which made the request here in standards and practices), but at the time I wanted to raise interest in the issue and experiment with how this would work.

Thoughts?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:23, 24 January 2006 (EST)

:To Spencerian's points on terminology: (1) The lack of a solid canonical term is a valid argument for keeping the old term ''only until a new term is agreed upon''. Clearly we do not wish to frivolously or rashly change the Wiki; hence this discussion. (2) The difficulty of the task is not a disqualifier, as Ricimer has stepped forward to take it on, and I'm certain others of our cadre will pitch in. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but could not a search-and-replace bot easily change such a unique term as "Humano-Cylon"? (3) I don't see how this represents an exception for Sharon Valerii. I believe we're talking about replacing the term globally. Can you elaborate on this point? (4) If you are waiting for the characters to realize cylons are not merely machines to be shut down, I assume you are referring to the mainstream colonial opinion. There are plenty of characters (Helo, Baltar, all of the Cylons, and [[Demand Peace]], who give them a bit more credit. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 14:57, 24 January 2006 (EST)

::Thanks for the clariification. On the work front, of course, the changing of the terms throughout isn't an impossible undertaking, but note that once a term is in use, it's hard to stop. In the case of the Cylons of RDM, an article is already there. To make the changes, we have to go all the way for all pages or not at all to ensure that referencing info, as well as the info itself, remains consistent. Ricimer's point #4, which I've suggested on the Valerii page, using [[Sharon Valerii]] as a disambig/parent page where subarticles for supporting characters that have appeared should keep article sizes down while organizing data well. I'm all for this idea the more I think of it. "Sharon Valerii" is like a class of ship (all generally the same), but each ship has a characteristic identity (Boomer, Caprica-Valerii), thus the parent page and subarticles for all major players. Sorry if I confused you on my thoughts on this.

::The Cylons, be they truly biological and not to be treated as machine, are still the central adversary of the Colonials. While the characters can make their judgements on what they see the Cylons to be, we as wikipedians just report what we see, ultimately--we don't make the "news". In other words, if Adama (who runs the Fleet) sees the Cylons as a threat, they still have to be reported here in that light. Helo and others may have differing opinions, which should also be added. We must spin interpretation very cautiously and not to interpret it as fact. With that, I'm in favor of "Cylon agent" (the most commonly used term in the show, IMO) for a H-O replacement, but still, "Cylons (no suffix)" may also have merit. Current aliases are still OK, but the convention would be for that. I also suggest that we form parent/child pages for each of the Cylons (see, I'm doing it already now that I understand the subtle point) to avoid confusion and oversized articles. This also prevents issues with over hyphenations: Picon-Valerii, Tauron-Valerii, Cheese Whiz-Valerii..you get the idea. And when/if the baby is born, she gets her own page as she will be quite unique (I hope). To keep from this thread going crazy again, let's go for support/oppose tags at your replies from here, with your suggestions on how or what to do with terms and page design. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:37, 24 January 2006 (EST)

===Proposal===
There will be no special term for the human models. All references to Cylons in the Re-imagined series will be taken to refer to the humans, unless prefaced with "Centurion" or other relevant distinguisher. This is in line with the show's own usage, and avoids creating a non-canon term.

The article [[Humano-Cylon]] will be deleted. Its content will be merged into [[Cylon Models]], the individual overview pages for each cylon model, and a new page on potential cylon agents, with the previously discussed "whitelist" and "graylist" sections, as relevant.

Links to Humano-Cylon will be redirected to the [[Cylons (RDM)]] article cover-page (which will be spruced up, but probably remain fairly spare), or to various subsections, as appropriate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:55, 24 January 2006 (EST)

===Counter-Proposal===
The human-appearing models of Cylon are indeed distinct enough that they deserve a special term. All references to Cylons in the re-imagined series don't necessarily refer to the humanoid models (we have no idea how these things are deployed, and in context, whe Lt. Gaeta shouts "Cylons incoming!" he's not talking about humanoid Cylons floating in space). Plent of times on the show they have made a distinction between the "mechanical variety" and "the human variety", so the "Proposal" would not, in fact, be "in line" with the show's own usage.

The article "[[Humano-Cylon]]" will remain entirely intact, but have its ''name'' changed to something else (my suggestiong would be "humanoid Cylons", but someone else might be able to come up with a better name and some ideas were tossed around above, etc). The contents of "Humano-Cylons" will not be merged. The ''already existing'' overview Character pages for the humanoid Cylon models will remain intact as they are now. There will be no new page for potential humanoid Cylons; it will remain a sub-section of the article dealing with the humanoid Cylons (as it is now). If by "whitelist" and "graylist" it is meant "people we suspect of being humanoid Cylons" and "people who it has been proven could not possibly be humanoid Cylons", such sub-headings will be added into the list of suspected Cylon Agents on "Humanoid Cylons".

Links to "Humano-Cylon" will be redirected to the new term ("Humanoid Cylon", for example, pending consensus on name). Humanoid Cylons models that have developed distinct personalities that have made them unique Characters on the show will be separated into having their own Character pages, while a stubb about these individual copies will be made in the article dealing with that particular "model" (as well as a link). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:38, 25 January 2006 (EST)

===Discussion of Proposals===
I think we may be trying to decide too many things at once. I think it would be much easier to make this decision in a couple of steps:

: A. Move all discussion of creating copy-specific pages on specific models to [[Talk:Sharon Valerii#Keeping Track of the Valeriis]], just so it doesn't get so confusing here. Really, that's the only character we're considering doing this to and once we make a decision on her, we can make that a policy without much discussion here.

: B. Do we want to change the term?

: C. What do we want to change it to?

: D. What does that entail?/Plan of Action/Enact PoA.

Now, I would not be opposed to changing the term. I agree it could be a bit confusing when/if Sharon delivers us a little halfling. One thing that's not been brought up when speaking of work load is the fact that not all references to Humano-cylons are links. So they'll be harder to track down than, say, all occurances of "Thrace, Kara". So, there'll be a lot of hand-searching, if you take my meaning, to be done. That being said, I don't think that's a reason not to change, really. What we ''do'' here is edit stuff.

On the point of C (really we could do my steps B and C together, without ''too'' much confusion), I support the change to simply Cylon. In a vast majority of cases context will make it readily apparent whether we're talking about Simon or a raider. In the few cases where we'll have to be more specific, then I think we could use "humanoid Cylon" or a "human-type Cylon" or "a Cylon of the human variety" (if you're not into the whole "brevity" thing) or any number of other circumlocutions that need not be standardized. As for changing the article name, we could make it "Cylon (human type)". I think it should continue to be an independant article because raiders and basestars have articles of their own... We just don't know what to call it. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:15, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:What about putting it on the front page of [[Cylons (RDM)]]? We could list capsule descriptions of the known models there, just like The Twelve Colonies lists the individual colonies. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:21, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:For me, part of the elegance of using the simple term "Cylon" is that it doesn't limit itself to the human-looking ones, but that context will take care of that for us nearly every time. Clearly, "cylons approaching" does not mean space-walking humanoids. But neither does "Tigh is a Cylon" imply Tigh may be a centurion, or a Basestar. Let's give folks some credit. Also, I must have been confused - I didn't realize we were only discussing branching the pages for Sharon. I think at the very least, Baltar's-Psychosis-Six and Gina have different enough agenda to merit different pages. -- [[User:Mayosolo|Mayosolo]] 03:51, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:: I may have mis-understood the issue of splitting, then, but I think it's different from adopting a replacement for "Humano-cylon", so I'd rather talk about it in another place, even if it's just further down on this page. As there's another place already in use, why not consolidate discussion to that place? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:23, 25 January 2006 (EST)

== Punctuation ==

: ''Dicussion moved from [[Talk:Main Page]] by [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] at 10:53, 5 February 2006 (EST).''

Hello, I'm new and my edits have so far been of the proofreading type (that's what I'm good at), and I've noticed a particular area of inconsistency in commas/periods and quotation marks. Since it has been decided that we shall prefer American spellings, perhaps we should also use American punctuation style, which places commas and periods inside quotation marks. I have seen them this way a few places, but I've mostly seen the British style used, which places commas and periods outside the quotation marks. I don't care either way, but I think consistency is good so there should be a guideline one way or the other. [[User:Bunchofpants|Bunchofpants]] 08:40, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: IMO British style is much, much easier, both to write and to read. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 09:43, 5 February 2006 (EST)
: Then perhaps we should declare "British style" the rule so that those of us who fret over punctuation can change the non-British occurrences to match.[[User:Bunchofpants|Bunchofpants]] 10:20, 5 February 2006 (EST)
::Welcome to the wiki, Bunchofpants. You've noted a significant inconsistancy we do, and I'm a bit guilty as well. Punctuation ''should'' (based on my experience) be within quotations (such as, "Kara, you're just crazy."). But, when dealing with episode references in parentheses, our convention is to place the punctuation after the episode reference, outside of the quotes. (Tyrol says "Put the gun down" ([[Fragged]]).) This convention, I think, is fine. However, in sentences without episode references, the punctuation should be inside. I'll need to check our policies, where, if we don't make up our own policy, we tend to stick with Wikipedia policy. Another administrator may also have an opinion to this. So that others can chime in, we should move this discussion to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions]].--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

This is, I think, probably because we're on the internet. Apparently, I think according to the hacker slang dictionary which I don't have time to find a link to, it is very, very common amongst prolific internet users to use the British style, not because we're all Anglophiles, but because we tend to have a large cross section with the computer science community. Basically, if the period is not part of the quote, you don't put it so that the reader can tell ''exactly'' what goes in the quotes. Especially in help menus for *NIX systems, that use it so that you know the command is "hup" or whatever, rather than "hup." which would be wrong if "hup" were the actual command. Anyway... I like this system. The end. --[[User:Day|Day]] 10:27, 5 February 2006 (EST) (Post Script: Let's allow a few days for discussion. Maybe move this to S&C? ''I HATE EDIT CONFLICTS'')

== After Questions...now Analysis? ==

We seem to have agreed new standards for the Question's section. However, the Analysis section of a lot of pages is similarly riddled with discussion and dispute. Should this also be reigned in?

: Yes. Now... How, Exactly? --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:53, 17 March 2006 (CST)
:: At the risk of making it sound simpler than it is, we apply much the same standard. We go through Analysis sections and see where discussions can be boiled back down into concise points or where follow-on comments can simply be eliminated. Just as we've refocused "Questions" on "Questions the Episode Asks and Does Not Answer", we refocus "Analysis" on actually analysing the episode as a story rather than on nitpicking technobabble or speculating on unanswered questions :-)
::I'm also starting to think that it may behoove us to simple create a separate "Speculations" section if we feel like we don't want to completely eliminate speculation from the site. I'm not sold on it, tho'. Just pondering.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:25, 17 March 2006 (CST)

::: I think we should shoot speculation as often as we find it, except where it is clearly marked. And I don't think we should let it become rampant. We moved all the Cylon Agent speculation stuff off of each character's page and onto a speculation page, for instance. I don't want to get into encouraging speculation on every single episode page. I like the Purge and Clense idea posed above by someone who didn't sign their post. --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:29, 18 March 2006 (CST)

:::: The unsigned post was me, and the lack of signature an oversight. Sorry :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:36, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Although I agree that Question sections need '''extensive concision''' as we saw on LDYB II, one of the strengths of BattlestarWiki is that we have Questions and ''probable answers based on evidence''; if we remove ''all'' answers as was done on the recent revision to LDYB II, we remove one of the ''greatest'' features of ''BattlestarWiki''. I feel that answers to questions should be kept shorter than 2 lines, but so long as they stay on one line, and we don't run into a debate back and forth of like 5 things, we should keep them. And if there is a debate it goes to Analysis. I am adamant about this. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:19, 19 March 2006 (CST)

: If a question has a probable answer based on evidence, then it simply isn't a question any more :-) I'm OK with the idea that we use the Question section to gather answers and possibly gain Analysis points that way, but once we have those answers, the questions should be moved or removed (or, if the answers are purely speculative, the answers purged).

: I also disagree that Analysis should be used for debate. There is no section of the encyclopedic pages that should be used for debate. That's what Talk pages are for. Analysis does not mean, "This is where we nitpick the episode and each others' points to death". It should ultimately read like one person analyzing the episode. Someone suggested it should even be reformatted at some point into a narrative rather than bulleted presentation, and I agree.

: It's not that I don't agree that one of the strengths of this sort of site is bringing fans together to talk out and even occasionally to nitpick. It's just that I think that's what Talk pages are for, not encyclopedic pages. --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:36, 19 March 2006 (CST)

No. The point is that we aren't bringing up "speculation" but that we are pointing out facts, back and forth. For example, "Was Cain lying to Starbuck about wanting to take back the Colonies?" could be followed by "Cain has been seen to be manipulative" followed by "Cain also honestly seems to want to take the fight back to the Cylons", etc. Yes, there are "Questions" and it ''remains'' a questions even if we offer ''insight'' into it. No, we should not move the questions once these points have been raised. Analsis is not officially "debate" but it is what it's name implies; "Analaysis" i.e. counterpoints and so forth, based on Fact; that is, not just listing our opinions, but weighing the facts against each other. Either way, the rules are loose when it comes to Analysis. '''No, it should not be moved into a narrative format; that's more confusing than a point by point bulleted list'''. No, this is not what Talk pages are for. Talk pages are just for discussion about what should go on the front, but let me reiterate; '''Remove this feature of the questions and you would GUT the best feature of BattlestarWiki'''. ------>I want the section on the front of this article of Standards and Questions describing how we handle Questions to be revised.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:21, 19 March 2006 (CST)

: I think, Merv, that you and I have a fundamental disagreement on what the best feature of this Wiki is. And it's odd, because from what I've seen so far, you're actually a provider of what I think the best feature actually is: solid, detailed, well-researched and defensible information about the series, its stories, and its characters. The example you offer is a good one, but the moment good insight is provided for the question like that, I feel it could be moved to Analysis. Or, in this specific example, edited together to remain an unanswered question, but without the sense that people are "discussing" something, which has no place on encyclopedic pages: "On the one hand, Cain can be manipulative. On the other hand, Cain honestly seems to want to take the fight back to the Cylons. So: was Cain lying about wanting to take back the Colonies?" When all is said and done, if the Wiki is dedicated to Neutral Point of View, then encyclopedic pages need not to sound like they're arguing with themselves.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 22:41, 20 March 2006 (CST)

:In case there is any confusion about what I am saying we need it's; "Let's just keep doing what we've BEEN doing, and when a Question section like LDYB II's gets a little messy, ''clean it up as the situation requires''.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:23, 19 March 2006 (CST)

::It seems like these sections (in both Espisode and Character guides) are getting very large and when someone is trying to save even a minor edit we will get an Overflow error. You might have seen it before. http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.#Error_Message It might be better to place both of these sections of new pages. (i.e. LBYB, II, Question/Analysis). --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:16, 20 March 2006 (CST)

Before I resume my attack on the "Questions" section, I would appreciate it if other frequent editors and admins could chime in explicitly on whether we still like the guidelines I posted to the Standards and Conventions page, as discussed on LYOB II's talk page, or whether more people feel Merv is right and we shouldn't be quite so strict as I've proposed (and executed on LYOB I and II)... I would prefer not to take silence for assent only to have a bunch of stuff reverted later because it was widely thought I was too quick with my knife :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:20, 22 March 2006 (CST)

:I guess part of if really depends on if it is just "Questions" or if it is "Unanswered Questions". I don't mind the occassional answer, but it's the ones three deep with conflicting/argumentative answers ([[The Captain's Hand#Questions]]) that bug me. But I guess just shifting them down to analysis doesn't really change anything. I'm torn. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:44, 22 March 2006 (CST)

:I haven't commented much because I agree with practically everything you've said on this subject. It's been bothering me for some time, but I haven't had the energy to tackle the issue. I congratulate you for having the fortitude to take this on — you have my unconditional support on this one. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:40, 22 March 2006 (CST)

== Disambiguation Location ==

We should note that Disambiguation for pages that have more than one meaning should go on the top line of the page, below any "Global" template areas, such as delete, but above such Templates as "Episode Guide", "Character Data", and "Battle Template" area so the text stand out more. Otherwise it is cramped on between the left coloum and the right table and seems like part of the article, rather than Disambiguation data. It should also be tabed once and always italized. '''Comments?''' --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:09, 20 March 2006 (CST)

: Your choice of words seems very presumptious. I would have said something like, "I like the look of one tab and italics" or "The current convention seems to be..." or whatever, rather than being so proscriptive. I agree that we probably need a standard on this. One tab and italics is fine with me. Just noting that your attitude seems very... controntational. Does anyone else think a different formatting is better? --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 20:37, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::Well, that formatting is what I use and prefer, at any rate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:04, 20 March 2006 (CST)

::The convention I've always used is the same convention at Wikipedia. Tab one and italicize. So say we all. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 08:16, 21 March 2006 (CST)

::: Good enough for me. If someone dissents, we can remove it, but for now, I've put this on the S&C page, as I understand it from Shane's post. By your command. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 00:48, 29 March 2006 (CST)

== Cast pages Overview section ==

Most of the cast articles have a section titled "Overview" instead of just using the first paragraph as the overview like normal wiki articles. I want to change them all. Any objections?--[[User:Bp|Bp]] 22:24, 21 March 2006 (CST)
:Plah. I just noticed all the articles are this way, even [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I|episodes]]. Withdrawn. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 00:36, 22 March 2006 (CST)

== Template Font Size and Design ==

I don't like the size of the font in most of the templates. That's my option of course. So I wanted to bring it up. [[Template:Ship_Data|This template of the Ship Data]] is a good example of the size of the text that I think is better than the bold, large text. Also we should always wikicode the templates. I put up a number of examples on how they are created. Also for the top of these type of templates we should maybe have the red bar along. Here is a [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Template:Star_Data&oldid=40890 link] of an old verion and then there the version that is active right now which is [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Template:Star_Data&direction=next&oldid=40890 this]. The Small text keeps everything balanced with the artcile font.

Template that would be effected would be:

*Episode_Data
*Ship_Data
*Star_Data (Being Renamed)
*Character_Data
*Book_Data

Just a thought... :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:24, 22 March 2006 (CST)

==Succession Boxes==
Anything with only one person in a box, like "Laura Roslin" as the ''only'' entry in a succession box for Secretary of Education, is redundant and excessive; it's not necessary, clutters up the page, and it simply makes little sense to do so. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:25, 26 March 2006 (CST)

I mistakenly posted this on the front page first (oops); this is my proposed addition:

"Succession boxes, such as those for holders of a political office or a command position aboard a ship, should not be created unless at least two separate articles can be linked to using such a box". --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:32, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:If a goverment is supposed to be able to be listed in any part of someone's bio (i.e. We could do Billy and Toni as People who were aides to President Roslen and then Felix Gata to Giaus Baltar) on '''Succession''' boxes, including Vice-President, or Assitants to the President of the Colonies, or CAG, XO, or CO, or anything that has an order, it should be included. A great example is [[Lee Adama]]'s page, and I didn't even add the other ones; An '''''Admin''''' did. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:31, 26 March 2006 (CST)

::Some of these simply do not make sense, however: why make Gaeta have a box that says "assistant to President Baltar" when he's the ''only one''? The entire concept of adding in extra link boxes is to keep the navigation ''more'' easy to use, but this has been taken to the point that it's just cluttering things up without adding anything truly useful or necessary; I mean the links to Baltar are already in there, or in his character box as a former position. It is impractical and unwieldy. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:35, 26 March 2006 (CST)
:::People love timelines and orders. To get the quick skimmy of things, people look at these. They have been used all over Poiltical pages sorting out who has had what. So maybe we should delete the ones that have just One person attached to it? There is no harm in it being there no more than the "Job" section in the Character template. Guess what? If I were a normal person, I like the boxes, because it answers an interesting question, has there been any secertary's in goverment thus far other than the President's spot. Maybe one of these days we will see a show where there is a meeting with all the members. She even talks about it in Minisersi where she knew all 52 before here. (was it 52? can't remember.) Someone had to be before her and before Adars Administration. My edit was also there and admins been on the site before you came along an removed it. It seemed they had no problem with it being there. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:41, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::Not having it answers the question even quicker. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:32, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::I'm with Merv on this one. Having looked at some code for various templates, I see that there's a trick that can be used for hiding sections that don't actually have any data. That should be used here.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 08:01, 26 March 2006 (CST)
:::::That's is incredibly cool UncleMikey; I didn't know the wikicode could let us do that. Reall cool; I agree with Uncle Mikey's idea. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:44, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::::I'm still not entirely sure how it works. It appears to actually be a CSS trick rather than a true WikiCode trick. Take a look at the CharacterData template, tho', and then experiment with it in a sandbox or on your own userpage (as I did in mine). Leave stuff out of the template-invocation...the line is completely omitted. Very slick.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 19:49, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:''Copied from [[Talk:Laura Roslin]]:''
:I'd say it's okay to have an unfilled succession box where it helps to illustrate the career of a particular character - that is, if they have completed succession boxes, they could also have unfilled ones as appropriate (thus, for example, we can see Baltar's progression from Caprican delegate to VP to President without needing to know who preceded or succeeded him as the Caprican delegate). --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:42, 26 March 2006 (CST)

::But Peter that is redundant with the "roles" section of the template at the top of the article. I think we should not do it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:45, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:: No more redundant than succession boxes for the presidency. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:53, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:::Not so. The succession boxes allow a visitor to see who has been president, or who has been commanding a ship, in succession. This is not always covered in one article about a character-->boxes about what a character has done over time, well that's just in the article itself, and it is in their "role" subheader anyway. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:13, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::So you would say the one Succession box under [[Gauis Baltar]] should not be there? How come you have not deleted that one. You can not be picky. It's either ALL or NONE. You can't just change it because I added it. You been doing it to them all over the place this evening, without consulting anyone before you did it. I like to remind you that this is a community Wiki, and not yours and not mine. But everyone's. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 20:29, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Although I can abide by Gaius Baltar having a succession box without anyone on his left or right, it seems a little ridiculous to add them to all the other delegates who haven't gone on to serve in other capacities. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:07, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::Gaius's has been their longer. I have to look to see when, but my addistoin caught the eye of merv and he edited it right out. As far as the others, if we see another meeting of the 12, and they have changed at least they are there to start off with. The only one I didn't add was the one where no one understands which delgete he belongs to. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:13, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:Peter you and I have had our differences before and this I regret; I hope that in the end, they were actually constructive. But what Shane has been doing is in direct violation of Wikiettiquette: "this is a community wiki, and not youra and not mine..."-->"so do exactly what *I* want to do!" is what you are saying? This is irrational; Shane we are DEBATING whether to do this, and you '''went ahead and added more of these things to the Quorum of Twelve Delegates?''' "Why didn't you remove the box from Baltar then, Merv?--->Because after I made the change to Kat as a TEST, I moved the discussion HERE, to Standards and Conventions! I FROZE what I was doing after it was *brought up as an issue*---->You have not listened when cautioned by myself or Peter to pause your editing when it comes into debate; you've gone ahead and edited dozens of pages, and then complained that ''I'' was directly attacking you, simply because I question the veracity of this? And intermixed with this you've been dropping...regretable threats, actual threats onto this wiki, while I try to debate our policy using the civil rules which we have established. Peter, should Shane keep doing this? I will defer to your decisions, as I do not desire a revert war....but there are limited to how far things have gone Peter, you know that. I am going to revert Shane's edits to the Quorum members to bring them back to EXACTLY what they were before this debate began; change them when this debate has finished, accordingly. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:40, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::Better yet, leave that as "Peter, I implore you yourself to make these edits to restore the old versions of these articles to their pre-debate conditions, and freeze them there until it is finished". That would be better than me doing it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:42, 26 March 2006 (CST)
:::Naturally, I will alter the articles to fit the consensus as soon as one emerges, if no one else does. However, I will not protect the pages under these circumstances. This is an issue which can be worked out here in a relatively prompt fashion if we all abandon ad hominem attacks and focus on the merits of one another's positions.
:::Your issues with Shane as a user, while certainly relevant in a broad sense, are not appropriate to discuss here. If you feel the need, you should open an [[BW:RFC|RFC]] detailing your concerns. The community may then decide if they are well-founded and settle on an appropriate remedy if necessary. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:13, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::I bear no grudge against Shane, Peter. My concern is with his actions. Yes, it would be better to handle this in a more prompt fashion which does not require freezing, you are correct. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:26, 26 March 2006 (CST)

===Proposed Compromise===
:''This is my preferred solution; I offer it up for consideration and comment by other concerned users.''
In general, succession boxes should be avoided when neither the predecessor nor the successor to a particular position is known. An exception can be made in the case of a character who already has succession boxes with at least some information, to present a concise depiction of that character's career path.
:''Please comment below.'' --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:21, 26 March 2006 (CST)

::Well, I must say that I really liked mine more; as I already said above, I think the roles box already does that, bio too, etc. etc. etc. I was curious how many would prefer my original proposal instead of this compromise. However, this is not an insane compromise, and I actually think I could live with it. I'm not overly fond of it, but I like it's call for disgression. Okay, Peter, lets just see how many people go one way or the other. This is a pretty good compromise, though. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:29, 26 March 2006 (CST)

::This is fine. I have no problem with it. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 11:02, 27 March 2006 (CST)

:: I'd be fine with this. I'd be fine with saying that a box with two "Unknown"s shouldn't be there. Either is fine with me. I am not particularly swayed by the career path reasoning, but can see the thinking. Anyway, this seems alright. And, also, this allows for decisions to be made on a case-by-case basis. For instance, it would be kind of silly to have, a ton of (effectively) empty succession boxs on someone's page simply because they had one filled box. I can't think of an example, but imagine someone who had held several jobs that no one else had held before or since (to our knowledge) and then was ''Galactica's'' CAG. No reason to have all ''billion'' boxes, but it might be useful to have one or two if they were somehow more important roles. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|talk]]) 00:59, 29 March 2006 (CST)

== Regarding excerpts from larger articles in other pages ==

As [[Number Six#Gina]] or [[History of the Twelve Colonies#Fall of the Twelve Colonies]]? --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 14:02, 17 April 2006 (CDT)
:These are overview pages, with a specific event having it's own page (Fall) and as for Gina, it was decided that copies that gain distinct personalities and become distinct characters get their own character page, so the Gina material got put in a separate article, but a brief description and link was left behind. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:07, 17 April 2006 (CDT)
::Yes I understand that, but the links are given differently in these two places. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 14:18, 17 April 2006 (CDT)
:::For clarity. One if for an event, one for characters. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:40, 17 April 2006 (CDT)
:::I prefer the formatting on History of the Twelve Colonies, which I borrowed from Wikipedia. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:21, 17 April 2006 (CDT)
::::I rather obviously agree, but I could see a reasonable person differing; I do think we should have a policy, though. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 21:59, 17 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::I still think so. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:22, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

== Regarding succession box formats ==
{{start box}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown)''|title=Executive Officer of the [[Mercury class battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''|after=''(unknown; eventually [[Lee Adama]])}}
{{end box}}
looks ugly; specifically, "(unknown; eventually [[Lee Adama]])"
It's also inconsistent with
{{start box}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown, eventually [[Jack Fisk]])''|title=Executive Officer of the [[Mercury class battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''|after=''(unknown, eventually [[Anastasia Dualla]])}}
{{end box}}
from [[Lee Adama]] and the versions of [[Peter Dash]] both before and after I changed it. I'd prefer "Unknown, eventually Foo" , "Unknown" , and "No one" all without parentheses. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:22, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

:For me, the italics serve the highlight the paucity of information, although I guess I'm not married to them. I don't think "unknown" should ever be capitalized, though, as it isn't a proper noun. Where would "No one" be applicable? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:28, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
::I was applying initial capitalization based on its application to captions, section titles, and the like. [[Peter Dash]] is an example for "No one" , although I can live with "None" ...to the point that I have no preference between them. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:15, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
:::I think "none" sounds better personally. I have no further objection if you want to restyle the rest of these. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:18, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

== Archives Pages ==

Well.. There are two ways I think this could be handled.
#Arcives namespace (subpages needed incase their becomes two or more pages)
#Current way for this page

Personally, I would like the namespace "Archives" so it could be searched independlty away from the talk pages. The listing of the archives though, should be done like this page. Relevent topic only should be archived.

Thoughts? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:12, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

:No new namespaces, please. I prefer the oldid link method for user talk pages, and archive subpages off of the "Battlestar Wiki talk" namespace for project pages. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:52, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

:Having more boxes to check when running a search for some discussion would be bad. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 22:21, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

== Battlestar Wiki should be... ==

...always in ''italics''. If it happens to become bold, that is fine, but always ''italiced''. Any comments --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:32, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

:That strikes me as annoying, not particularly useful, and exceedingly hard to impose on the vast number of existing instances. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 22:23, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

== Outline rules ==

I've mentioned this before [[#Cast pages Overview section|on this page]], but it's getting really annoying now. It seems so stupid to have an "Overview" section and force the TOC above it in every article. The first paragraph should be the overview or introduction section. It doesn't need a header. For example: In [[Greek mythology]], the "Introduction" Section should just be the first paragraph. And look at [[Dean Stockwell]], Someone has added an "Overview" section and the used _ _TOC_ _ to force the wiki to behave badly. That article should not even have a TOC! Another example: [[Donner]], should not have an "Overview" header, but at least they didn't add a TOC. This is most obvious in episode articles like [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]. The "Overview" section should just be the first paragraph. Is this a policy? I can't seem to find it anywhere. Can someone explain why we ignore standard wiki format, standard outline rules, and common sense?

If this is talked about somewhere else, please point me there.

--[[User:Bp|Bp]] 10:55, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

User talk:Bp

2006-04-21T10:54:47Z

Bp: /* "Science" contribution */